Much More Convincing than the Luke Tree

[00:30]

Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast whose hedgerows are all but extinct, except for Todd, and we're going to hold him down and shave his head later.

I'm Brendan.

I'm Nathan.

I'm Todd.

And we are not visiting Q Gardens as promised as we meet Catomara in Mark of the Rani.

Tony, this is the first script with a series for Pip and Jane Baker, and I'm just gonna say this.

If this was the only thing that they wrote, I think they'd be held in much better regard.

I think they're even worse at writing dialogue than Eric Sale, it is.

You're probably right.

They use all of these really just strange bits of vocabulary.

There's lines like fortuitous would be a more appetite, epithet, and...

[01:36]

And how's that for style?

Terrible.

No one talks like that at all.

And George Stevenson, who's a big character in episode 2, is lumbered with this sort of horrific kind of dialect, and he does this immensely irritating accent.

And so that's a bit of a problem.

They do have a tin ear for dialogue and a tendency to reach for words that no one would actually use, but they're not unique in that in this era.

There's a sort of simplicity to the plot and a kind of naivety to it, which is actually a little bit of a relief.

For the last few years, we've had plots which are sometimes needlessly complex.

Like if you look at terminus.

Terminus has 2 really good ideas in it.

But their execution is just so muddy and unclear that you finish episode 4 and you're not quite sure what you've just watched.

Mark of the Brani.

We have a Time Lord scientist.

The Rani played magnificently by Kate Tamara, and we will gush all over her later.

[02:41]

And she has come to earth to get a brain chemical for a race of aliens, she rules, and the doctor has to stop her.

That's the plot.

Anthony only is thrown in because he signed a new contract and has to appear at some point this year.

So he's tacked into this script.

Is that really why he's there?

Yeah.

He wasn't part of the original pitch, but Pip and Jane were asked to include him before they started writing the script.

Okay.

Yes, but the original approach was the fact that the doctor has a companion, so the master would have a companion.

That's the original approach they were going with.

But of course, then as they began to write it, then this sort of took over and then they thought, oh, somebody like Kate Tamara could play it.

And of course, then they went back to JNT, of course, who was going, you know, wow, yes, of course, of course, because he likes these guest stars.

So that was then pushed as the way to go.

The masters pushed very much into the background.

Last week, we had, I think, the only Colin Baker story that isn't steeped in continuity, right?

[03:46]

The only one.

So this week we've now got the master and the Rani, both Timelords, you know, um, which as a child, that was rather delicious, really.

Yes, yes.

I really like that fact.

But, you know, the master is shoehorned into this and he's, you know, Anthony Amy isn't even on location for the 1st bit where there's this scarecrow that's doing those, those laughs, and it's only, you know, he's on location for the next bit when he throws the straw down.

Look, I don't mind this story, right?

But the master's just like walking around going, do you want some of my sweet meat, you know, basically, that's all he has to do.

He kills a dog.

Oh, of course, and that happens too.

That is that is really quite unpleasant.

It's much worse than destroying Tracan, I think.

Much, much worse.

I mean, even though he is shoehorned in.

What I quite like about the master in this story is he actually has a clarity of plan.

His plan is to kill the doctor.

So he has lured the doctor here, and then he's discovered the Rani's.

[04:50]

So he ropes her into his plan.

She doesn't want to do any of that.

Oh God, why are you involving me in this?

But at least for once, the master's like, I've got one purpose and I'm going to do it.

I'm going to chuck the Tartars down that pit and then I'm going to chuck the doctor down after it.

He's so incompetent, isn't he?

I mean, really, it all goes horribly wrong, but not a very inventive or original plan.

There's not really that much going for it from a sort of entertainment standpoint.

And as usual, he doesn't manage to bring it off in any way.

And it is a problem with the master, isn't it?

That all he does is want to kill the doctor and not succeed.

And that's really why bringing him back every year is a mistake because the more frequently he appears, the more incompetent he seems.

He had a bad year in 1971 where like a run of, you know, 6 plans all went belly up one after another.

Wedding can possibly go wrong.

We don't even get like any sort of explanation as to his survival.

Like, it's just like, I'm indestructible.

[05:52]

It's just brushed over from the last time it was burning in the flames of the planet of fire.

I was a bit disappointed by that at the time because I had thought that they'd killed the master off and that that was kind of a way of kind of winding up pizza era.

And I was a little bit disappointed to see him back.

In a way, it's kind of a pity that JNT, a bit like we've been discussing this in Bondfinger, cubby broccoli, sort of held onto actors, possibly for longer than he should have because they were having fun.

If they had had, with the scarecrow, he removes his mask.

You don't recognise him.

You don't know who he is and then the episode one reveal is, I regenerated.

I'm the master and it's a new actor.

That would add some interest to the character in this story.

As it is.

It reminds me a bit of spy versus spy.

Because in mad magazines, spy versus spy, you got the black spy, you got the white spy, you got the black spy wins, some kind Symes, the white spy wins.

Very shortly after it debuted, they occasionally had a gray spy who was a lady who would constantly get it over both of them when she appeared.

[06:58]

And that's the thing.

The Rani comes into the story and she's constantly critiquing the master doctor conflict as I am not interested in any of this crap.

Get me out of here and get me my own show.

And I mean, she's right about the monster too.

Everything she says about the master is correct.

He's devious.

You know, this obsession with killing the doctor is stupid, you know.

And this just becomes the point and maybe we're well after the point where we can take Ainley's master seriously at all.

I still like the fact that both of them are there.

Cato Mara.

This is the Rani for me.

Like, I don't like the Rani in a few years time.

This is the one.

I love her in the black, slimming, the hair is down.

The outfit's great.

The TARDIS is phenomenal, and she just delivers the lines.

That one line where Colin is trapped and she's about to head out.

And she says, I'll kill him if he moves, but she says, like, kill, no, kill him if he moves pointing at the other one.

Just the way she delivers that is so delicious.

[08:00]

I just adore her in this in 3 years time or whenever she's back.

She has to do all the heavy lifting in that story, but I'm so disappointed in the character and what is delivered there.

This, I just want her back like next week.

Forget about the master.

She is phenomenal.

And she gets that wonderful line.

Josh Tom Kill, which, as a child, we used to play Dr. Charades and somebody once came up with a quotable code and it was Josh Tom Kill and I had no idea where it was from.

But of course, it's from this story.

So every time I see it, it's got Dosh Trom Kill.

And Josh is hot.

Yeah, is.

Yeah, he's actually, he's almost as hot as Luke.

Yeah, Luke is sort of ridiculously pretty, isn't he?

And he still is.

Like, if you look at him on the making of, he's like friend of the podcast, Peter Griffiths. just got a portrait somewhere.

He is so fit and so pretty, but of course, the moment it says like he's going to outdo Stevenson.

You just sit there going, Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I thought that too.

That is kind of foreshadowing because there is this sort of thing.

Well, wait, we don't know anything about Luke Ward from the history book, so we must be about to be killed.

[09:05]

I do like the fact that they do set this in the past with an historical figure sort of somewhere in the background.

I think in terms of world building that Pip and Jane Baker are going to give us later on.

I much prefer this to the sci-fi things.

And the fact that you can film it outside.

You know, Sarah Hillings, the director, goes to that one location, and the other bonus was the fact that, I know some other production had booked another outside broadcast unit, but they weren't needed or there was some problem in the BBC.

There was this whole crew that had been booked and paid for, and nobody could use them, or they said, well, who can use this crew?

Because they're not getting used for anything.

It was a mistake.

And of course, John Nathan Turner put up his hand, which is why we get those big crane shots and that sort of thing at the beginning and all that sort of thing and various scenes that were supposed to be indoors, then got set outside, which I'm really glad about because I really do like the use of a location in this is another element to the story.

In fact, I'm not sure the studios are all that successful.

And I'm not sure that Sarah Hellings is that great with some elements.

[10:08]

Like she can't do the action very well.

I think the fights are all very limp.

And the sets are a little bit kind of underlit and stuff, but the stuff outdoors is wonderful.

And it's sunny, you know, which is really nice.

And like everyone else, I hate Collins coat.

But there's something actually nice about how colourful it is on film when there's green and blue in the background.

How funny you say that, Nathan?

this is the one story where I think the coat is totally wrong.

And it's because it's up against coats, like, you know, it was based on designs that were 18th century or 19th century and here it's up against similar things.

And so it looks like a costume.

I love it when he gets out of it.

The only costume that's worse is Peris.

Oh, which is just the most hideous upside down tulip thing ever.

Like it's just, I mean, I think I think the previous 2 weeks of our pink and blue vibrant leotard with shorts aren't great, but I think this is just horrendous.

[11:15]

The pink heels and the pink stockings are awful.

When she takes that jacket off, it's a bit less offensive and she's got good hair, but it's really awful.

One of the things that I really like is the fact that in the big finish audios, the doctor changes his coat to a blue version, there's actually a little gift image out there, somebody's actually recolorized the doctor's coat and hers from this story out there on the internet, so it's all toned down and it actually looks really good, but this is the one story where the doctor's actually on an earth location for this doctor, which doesn't happen very often.

And I just think the coat, the 1st time ever I'm saying it just doesn't work.

I think that that's why it's a mistake.

Yeah, a big problem with the coat, not the problem because there are lots of problems with the coat.

This is something I've thought about mentioning for a few episodes, but I think it fits very well here.

Pat Godfrey, of course, designed the coach in desperation because all of her designs were being turned down because she knew how to do her job and wasn't used to designing something terrible.

[12:18]

But something Pat Godfrey has said in later, interviews, something she didn't take into account was that in terms of design, in set design and in costume design, you have to imagine colour on a scale from one to 100 in terms of your saturation of colour.

And she said on television, with lenses the way they were then, and the way video captured the colour.

You had a range of 30.

So everything had to be designed within that colour.

If not, it just looked drab and dull and flat.

And she said, the problem with Collins costume is it is so bright, and especially the lapels, the front on bit are so bright.

So everything either needs to be within that 30.

So everything needs to be bright to that extent or it needs to be drab and dull.

Now, in attack of the cybermen.

You've got the external locations, you can't do much about the colour with that.

But when you get to Tellos, everything's sort of black or ice blue and it looks really nice and it works really well, but everything is that ice blue colour, the cryons of that ice blue colour or people are wearing black or people are wearing silver.

[13:29]

Perry's as bright as the doctor, you know, so that ties them together visually.

In Varos, all the sets are brown.

So instead of being bright, they're all really dark and really murky.

And in this again, you were saying Nathan earlier.

The studio sessions don't quite work for you.

Yeah, all the walls are dull and brown, which is of the period.

But at the same time, you look at other period dramas, and especially period dramas not set in cities, period dramas set in regional locations like when the boat comes in and the palaces.

Things are bright. things are colourful, but they can't have things appropriately colourful in this because they weren't as bright as Colin's coat.

So instead of having sort of any colour, they have to bring everything down to browns and greys.

See, I think that that's what I'm noticing in that location thing.

When we're on film, we don't have quite the same problems as videotape.

And the bright colours are against bright green, bright blue sky.

And so, you know, like I'm not saying the costume looks pleasing or convincing, but it's colourful and it kind of works in that context.

[14:32]

But yeah, from a point of view of realism, like why the hell is anyone interacting with him at all rather than going, what the hell are you wearing?

you know, whenever they 1st meet him.

And I think that that's why Collins is the only doctor to never really go to a contemporary earth setting and interact with normal people.

That is correct.

The only contemporary earth is attacking Simon one, where they don't meet really anybody, like one person or whatever.

And then... the 2 doctors.

Okay, the 2 doctors, but he's not wearing that coat.

Is he?

He's wearing the, he's wearing the...

That waistcoat.

Which I quite like. actually quite works quite well.

Look, I quite like this story.

Like, I quite like the simplicity in that sort of thing and that location and that.

My biggest problem is, in fact, the Dr. Perry relationship is particularly in episode one.

In the previous 2 stories.

It had their little bit of a bitch, and then they get over it, and they get on with it.

And then for the most of us, the story, the doctor's concerned about Perry, they have little jokes and, you know, there's a few little touchy moments, but it's not too bad.

[15:34]

Here, it's just tat dripping.

It's just like, she says something.

He says something.

She says something, he says something and it just keeps going on and on and on.

It doesn't there's no big explosion.

We get over it, we get on with it.

And I noticed it watching it this time around.

I actually thought it's really grating.

It's better in episode two, right?

After she thinks he's dead and then he comes back and then he gives us something to do, like to look after the master and the Rani and, you know, that's much better.

But episode one, for me, is one of the 2 episodes this season that I, I think the way it's written, I'm not happy with.

I think there's a problem with the way they write Perry.

I think they make her incompetent.

And it is something that she gets accused of by some fans, and I think it's unfortunate because, as I said before, she's often the victim of mistreatment by men.

You know, even last week, we had Quillem, like seriously invading her bodily autonomy, and that that's a feature that is completely absent, I think, from this story.

[16:39]

And that's nice.

That's refreshing.

It's one of the nasty things, you know, we don't have lots of people attacking one another with guns.

We don't have people slavering over Perry or pushing her around.

But she is incompetent.

So when the doctor's 1st attacked by the Luddites, she stands off and sort of throws things at them.

The cliffhanger is her fault.

She pushes him the wrong way.

And it stands there waving her arms around.

I actually love that sequence.

I just burst out laughing that he's so annoyed and she's so incompetent, but I get a totally socially.

I totally get what...

It's completely her fault and she's completely pathetic about it.

And then just when it looks like she's actually doing a good job, you know, and she's actually managed to herd the master and the Rani down the mines and stuff like that and has been, you know, not afraid to use the gun and all of that.

And then she just falls for that obvious thing from the Rani and he's knocked unconscious.

[17:42]

And I think that's a bit of a shame.

She does get to say all these minds look the same to me.

Brilliant.

Yeah, so, you know, there's that in there.

There's 2 lines from her.

I particularly love when she thinks the doctor has taken off in the Rani's TARDIS.

She says, I have to find him or I'm going to be stuck in these ridiculous skirts forever.

And Lords Ravensworth is just what?

And then when the doctor does find it, she's okay.

She just says, I could have been in the 1800s forever.

Not, I'm so glad to see you.

You bastard.

I guess that's the thing, is that usually she'll have a bit of a spat, but then she'll be quite positive to the doctor.

And so here I find her. she doesn't back down.

She just keeps going on on and on.

And it's just the writing, you know, and he doesn't back down either.

It's just, see, Colin and Nicola have said, especially Nicola have said that they saw their relationship as bickering siblings, and I think that Pip and Jane bring that out the best, and I have no idea as to their personal life, but possibly because they are a married couple.

[18:45]

So they would have disagreements in their life.

Oh, the silly trivial things that get blown up out of all proportion.

I love that last line.

What are you doing there?

Argue mainly.

Yeah, that was quite good.

Actually, I love that.

It always brings a smile to my face that they can acknowledge that, you know, yes, that's what we do.

And I do love, and it is a bit unbelievable because of the costume, but I do love that the doctor falls in with Lord Ravensworth and kind of helps out with the local problem and solves the local.

You know, he doesn't just get rid of the master and the Rani, but he solves the violence problem in the community by getting back what was stolen and, you know, he becomes a friend to Stevenson.

Something a lot of people complain about, which I don't have a problem with is the tree.

I don't have a problem with the way in which the trees are when they actually happen.

The explosion is fantastic.

Yeah.

The tree for a physical prop without it moving, right, for the time compared to what we get with CGI, I think is there's more than one tree, isn't there?

[19:46]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Not the loop tree.

The other 2 are much more convincing than the Luke tree.

The actual tree itself and I appreciate the design, but when it grabs Perry's breast.

When it grabs Perry, I always go, okay, it's 1984.

What are they going to do?

Well, just not write that would be my suggestion.

Okay, but they've written it.

What are they going to do?

And so it's not a deal breaker for me.

But you obviously love it.

Well, see, to me as a kid.

This is one I watched when I was 10, I think, the 1st time I watched it.

And to me, I had the discontinuity guide and I'd read the discontinuity guide and in the discontinuity guide in the goof section.

It just says the tree exclamation.

So I had no idea. what it was.

And then the 2 trees holding up the doctor exclamation.

So when that happened, I had no idea that Luke grabbed Perry.

As a child, I accepted it, and I accepted, of course, he's still in there, and it's a way to effectively get across that there is a consciousness in this thing.

[20:49]

And I think it helps that Colin, Nicola and Kate play it for real.

Like when Perry eventually gets out and gets back to the doctor and says, you know, we've got to help Luke.

Where's Luke?

And the doctor just says, Luke just saved your life.

There's no hint of irony there.

And I think possibly for them on set, they may have looked at this and gone, really?

Are we doing, but to Collins credit is given some ridiculous stuff to do over his 2 years, and he never gives anything other than his most realistic reaction to it, as opposed to Pete, who would obviously, you know, be unenthused if he didn't like a script.

I think there is moments where Collins's reading of certain lines really.

I think people forget what he's having to deal with and what he actually does end up selling.

And they look, you know, when he overemphasises things more so in season 23 than 22, and they're the things that stick in your head, right?

As opposed to these other lines where he has to make gold out of, you know, you know, not straw and he'd be lucky to get straw.

[21:53]

You're right, mate.

Yeah, like, I mean, I mean, Nicola has talked about how those explosions were absolutely terrifying because it was the BBC team doing it, and of course, it's always, oh, you're right standing there, you'll be fine.

Of course, the explosions are always 10 times worse than they say.

Yes, so, um, the fake cliffhangers.

So, episode one ends with the master saying he's indestructible, everyone should know that when he 1st meets the Rani.

Is that the end of episode?

Actually, no, I tell a lie.

At the end of the episode?

Is the Rani's reply?

Is that so?

It's a little bit forgettable.

Yeah.

Well, that's okay.

Is that so I think that's quite funny.

I'm going to have to go back and have a look at that again.

The Cliffhanger episode 3 is when the doctor starts to suspect that Luke may be under the influence of Master, dashes out of the office, and Lord Ravensworth utters the chilling line, where's he off to now?

I think the big problem here is that everything's just a little bit inconsequential and everything's just a kind of little bit routine and formulaic.

[23:02]

You know, there's like, there's gas, mustard gas, and they have to put gas masks on, and then that stops.

You know, they're attacked by people and then the people go away.

There's nothing really very inventive here.

And I think that's a problem with their stuff next year and the year after too.

Like I don't mind terror of the vervoids, but it's pitched kind of at 10 year olds and it's all been done before.

And I think it's true of Mark of the Rani as well.

I think you've got a great location.

I think you've got a great guest star in Katomara, who I've now decided Knox, Martin, Jarvis off his purge.

But it's all just a little bit uninventive.

What do you think about the doctor being able to get into the Rani's TARDIS with his TARDIS key?

Is that right?

I think it's a nice bit of myth horse building.

And I think it's a deliberate conscious moment.

Perry comments on it, but that's the TARDIS key and the doctor just kind of smiles.

We've already been told in previous stories that Time Lords, in a way, have the same mind.

[24:06]

Or, you know, maybe the doctors made spiritual modifications to his key in case he ever runs into the master again.

I think it's a cheat, but at least we're spared a long explanation of it.

Yeah, it... like what Russell T. Davis always said.

You want a villain or a problem to get in the doctor's way.

You don't want a door to hold up the plot for 25 minutes.

Maybe she could have just left the door open like the doctor did in the Tank of the Cyberman.

Colin's performance in this.

I think this is the 4 story filmed for the year, right?

was filmed after the shoot doctors.

For me, there's a different energy here.

Whether it's he's more comfortable in the role now, not aiming to prove it.

So there is a slight change.

Gary Russell, as commented, this is one of his favourite performances of Colin, because of his interactions with Cato Mar and their history being in the brothers, and there's this obvious rapport.

Right.

Well, I think the wonderful thing about Colin is in this.

[25:07]

He gets moments with all the other principal speaking cast, so he gets moments, even with Luke, Lord Ravensworth, George Stevenson.

He has a beautiful scene with Anthony Ainley when the Rani is leading Perry out of the dell, and the doctor says to the master, you know, I think you'd make a laburnum tree, and the master says, why alaburnum tree, because it's poisonous.

And they're not even looking at each other, delivering this dialogue.

And that little scene is better than anything between Peter Davidson and Anthony Ainley, in my opinion.

Even though you could cut the master out of this plot and it wouldn't really affect the story.

He and Colin actually have a really good rapport straight away.

I think part of the reason being Anthony Anley's performance style, and actually that's being a bit unfair because Anthony Anley was constantly trying to bring the performance down and being told to ramp it up, but it's a far better fit for Collins performance style than it was for Peters.

Yeah.

That is a really nice scene.

[26:09]

It's a good observation.

Brendan, I like that.

And of course, you know, you've got Colin and Kate getting along really well.

And Kate does what Roger Delgado did in that she comes in and threatens to take over the show.

But Colin, I think, in and of himself is a far more self-assured actor than John Pertwee was because John Pertwee was, of course, a little bit of freed of someone taking over the show.

Whereas Collins attitude is, no, come in, take over the show.

You know, it'll be fun.

We'll have cake, that sort of thing.

Because the doctor does state at one point that he admires the Rani a little bit.

It's a very different relationship to with the master where it's this kind of sorrowful we were friends once kind of thing.

But with the Rani, we get that beautiful scene where is that scene where he's exploring her TARDIS and the look on his face and the admiration and him saying, I wonder if I asked a very, no, no, no, don't, no, we've got a job to do.

It's the Statenheim remote control that he's impressed by, which will come back in the next story.

[27:12]

I actually think I really like the design of the Rani's TARDIS, but every time I see it, It looks a little bit cheaper and less impressive than I remember.

The central control with that spinning thing is great, but it's that big.

The back end of it where they've built it up for whatever the rotors behind it, that's where you kind of go.

But it is nice.

Oh, something new.

And I was, I remember when she comes back in season 24 being slightly disappointed not to see the setting.

Slightly disappointed.

I was devastated.

I was hankering for something.

And again, that it was another set that JNT ordered they kept.

And I believe they did still have it in storage around that time, but it was just literally studio space.

They said, look, we spend a minute of the story in here.

So we're not going to devote all the studio time to it, which is a great shame.

The design element I love of Rani's tartar set. aside from the fact that she's got little objects dotted about the way Hartnall did.

Is the recessed lighting and the lighting behind things to give it a bit of depth.

And, you know, I kind of wish they'd done that for the doctor's TARDIS maybe at some and Peter Capaldi ends up having it when he adds more round things and they're sort of backlit and what have you.

[28:21]

What I find fascinating about the running TARDIS is, of course, you know, it's decked out in pink, which is a stereotypically feminine colour, but it doesn't feel like, you know, big pens for women.

It doesn't feel like a tokenistic effort.

It feels...

It could have been Laura Ashley wallpaper, you know, if we'd been unlucky.

So we should, you know, count our blessing.

Yeah.

But it doesn't feel like a patronising token gesture.

You know, it doesn't feel like she's a woman, so she has a pink TARDIS.

It, like, actually, no, that suits her aesthetic in the leather gear and the sort of gold and brown colours and her and her purple makeup.

No, the set fits her and she looks like a natural in it and she knees the master in the bowl.

Quite right too.

It's been joyous talking about this, Joy.

Actually, at the moment, coming away from this going, I actually like this a little bit more, then I have a thought, whereas our last week's discussion after venturing some Paris.

[29:22]

I liked it a little bit less.

See, I don't want to be too positive.

Just once this season, maybe.

It's just it's a relief from what's been going.

Yeah, yeah.

And sometimes I worry that I only like this story because I find it better than what's around it, but I think on its own, it's a good story as well.

It's not just enjoyable by default.

I found myself a little bit bored. have to say.

I think it moves slowly and I think, like I said, it's a bit routine, but it is lifted by some performances.

I like it.

I don't love it, but I like it.

You know, I think it's overshadowed by the things in this season, which I really love.

Ratings.

I need to talk about this, please.

Episode one.

6.3 million.

Oh, so we've dropped.

Episode 27.3.

I find that really intriguing.

I mean, it's not unprecedented.

Like, you know, Pete's time as the doctor.

Like, if I choose frontiers, for example, like 8000000 for episode one, 5.8 for episode two, 7.8 for episode three.

[30:28]

Suddenly there's, you know, it's not uncommon for things to jump around.

But what's concerning is that you had 8.9 at the beginning of the season, then 7.2, 7.27, 6.3.

So we suddenly had this cascading going down.

Like, if you look at it that way, and it came 111th.

7.3 you're back to 84.

So with less episodes, you've got less chances of, you know, picking up audiences.

I mean it's great that a 1000000 people came back.

But if you're gunning for the show to be gone, hello, Michael Grade, you know, you've suddenly got ammunition.

I think I remember someone saying, I wonder if it was friend of the podcast, Simon Moore, but it was someone who once said that once the show goes from being on for half the year and just becomes another thing that's on television for kind of, what, 3 months?

Three months.

It's easier to overlook it, and it's going to be a problem from here on in.

And there is obviously a general downward trend in the ratings.

[31:30]

And it is part of that.

I think, you know, Doctor Who at this point can still generate tabloid headlines.

It is still something that people are sort of interested in and perhaps have fond memories of, but it is becoming, It's becoming a sort of niche product and it's becoming a little bit more easy to overlook.

Only on for 13 weeks.

Yeah, you know, you've got 9 months of the year where you're not on.

You know?

And so John Nathan Turner doing all these headlines and trying to get guest stars.

You can, I can see the reasoning behind it, you know, to try and generate this sort of, sort of interest.

But yeah, you know, you know 6.3 back up to 7.3.

Look, it's it's no worse than the previous season in terms of like those numbers, but the fact that they're all in a row going down to a point and the placings are lower.

The placings are like we've had these series outside the top 100, more so with just 7000000 viewers.

Michael grades just around the corner.

Kids, I'm sorry to say.

[32:32]

And, you know, if 2 doctors can't generate better ratings than this and they don't, you know, what are you going to do?

Well, I think the announcement is actually made spoiler alert during the 2 doctors.

That's right When the show sinks to 6000000 viewers.

And the next thing people see after that is time lash.

I can't help but think Michael Grade made the decision of the announcement, knowing that time lash was the next story, because, uh, spoiler alert, I quite enjoy time lash, but I freely admit it is the weaker story of this season.

Yes, I, I, I agree on both counts.

But you have to remember that, you know, Gray didn't like the show before he came into be controller.

And the 1st thing across his desk was an internal report on Warriors of the Deep and how this should never have been transmitted because it wasn't up to the standards of the BBC.

And of course, you can point at the murka and all that sort of thing.

But if you've got that in front of you, you know, he's got EastEnders about to be launched and finding money.

[33:34]

He doesn't like the show.

The ratings are going down each week, you know, you're just going to pull the trigger, aren't you?

Regardless of whether it's more violent or not.

I'm sorry, the production team, all of us are all oblivious to the fact that the show isn't safe.

We think that it is.

You know, they're already planning the end of the season with a cliffhanger into the next season because they think it's just going to come back and there's this complacency within the production team and they've not managed to find a new producer.

It's shame.

Yeah, I think you highlight a problem there in that, the production team had become complacent.

And the main reason we are finding enjoyment in these stories and the 2 people we keep coming back to is that Colin and Nicola are not complacent, they are so happy to be there.

They are so enjoying each other's company.

And they are enjoying doing something fascinating that almost no other actor has done.

But they shouldn't be left to prop up the show.

Yeah, they're not getting the support they need.

I think by now, the show is just being made out of habit.

[34:34]

And it's been a long time since they've actually properly sat down and thought about what they're doing.

And the mere fact, even now, that every week is a serial.

Do you know what I mean?

We never sit down in an evening and watch an entire story.

I think by the mid 80s.

That's weird.

Yeah. and it is off-putting.

I think that the show has stopped worrying about what makes entertaining TV for the family and has decided to just continue making Doctor Who, which is an institution, and that there, as we've said before, just pandering to the people who've been watching Doctor Who for a while.

And so it's less fun and just less funny, less witty, less inventive.

And everyone's sort of less likeable.

You know, I'm not a big fan of pertwee.

But there was a kind of fun family liveliness to the show back then.

[35:39]

This so in his 1st season, I think.

Oh, yeah, no, I agree.

I think you're right.

In fact, the 1st season isn't much like that.

It's when Katie comes along.

That's right.

And it changes through that season.

I agree with you on a lot of points.

I still find a lot of fun and I still find a lot of inventive.

I still find a lot of humour and I still like a lot of the characters.

You haven't been this season.

I have listeners, but I take all those other points.

They're making for the sake of making it.

The support that was there for Doctor Who, like it got through season 18, new doctor, success, the 1st season, then it's the 20th anniversary, Peter's leaving, casting somebody else.

But the powers that be have all changed and the support that was once there is not there from the echelons.

They're looking for the faults.

They're looking they're looking to push that that switch.

And of course, you know, JNT had tried to leave already at this stage.

I think, you know, I think he knew his heart wasn't in it anymore, but he was, at this point, it was just hinted to him, but it would become overtly state to him at the end of this season.

If you leave, we are not making the show anymore.

[36:40]

And what, you know, what a horrible choice to give him because he clearly loves the show, and even when he wanted to leave, much like Russell T. Davis or Barry Letts or Verity Lambert.

That didn't mean he didn't love the show anymore.

And he's staying on because he loves the show, whereas Eric Saywood is staying on, because he loves the show, he wants Doctor Who to be.

And in a way, it's hard to fault him on that, you know, he's got a vision that he's trying to enact, but I think, like, say, John Wiles, the vision is flawed with, you know, the sort of central ideas of Doctor Who.

But for just this 2 weeks, it's geling a lot better than it has been because we have a villain with a bit of depth.

You know, she's not trying to rule the world.

She's got a single purpose and the doctor has stumbled on her plan and needs to sort it out.

We have a guest cast whom we get to know their characters and sympathise a bit with them and the doctor has his heroic action he's doing.

[37:48]

Perry uses her botany knowledge to try and solve the problem as well.

They've got independence.

They've got a bit of autonomy.

They mostly in this have a warm relationship with each other.

There are some very funny moments.

And the bizarre thing is with the master.

He is at his most underused in this story.

But I think that takes some of the pressure off, and Anthony Ainley is having a lot of fun, but there's that bit where someone describes TARDIS as a coffee, sort of has a little laugh to himself. yeah.

It's not flawless, of course, but there is so much charm to this story.

And I think that's why Colin Baker says, and I agree with him that Pip and Jane Baker are the best writers for his doctor on television.

I love Colin.

I love Colin as a person and as as as as the doctor.

But I couldn't disagree with him more about Vic and Jane Baker.

I never want them back again.

You know, next year, I'm sorry, next season, my least favourite writing segment of the entire year is Terror the Vivoids, and it's my favourite Colin Baker story on television.

[38:54]

So that's interesting.

I agree with both of you.

I look forward to talking about this.

With you in a few weeks time.

Dear listeners, we've had enough arguing mainly for Mark of the Rani, but do come back next week.

Along with Patrick Troughton in the two doctors, it's bound to be the best story ever.

Until then, check us out on Flightthrough Entirety.sexy, Flight Through Entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter.

Don't forget about Bondfinger, where we will soon be welcoming Timothy Dalton to the role of Bond on Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes and Bondfinger cast on Twitter.

[39:56]

Don't forget, hating to love is also out, a book reassessing 52 of the worst Doctor Who stories of all time, for which I've written about 20,000 words, I think.

You can find that link in our show notes.

Until next time.

May none of your sweet meats come from a black clad man in a back alley.

Thank you very much for listening and good night.

Good night.

See you soon.

That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd B.L.B. Nathan Bottomley and Brandon Jones.

Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

This episode, much more convincing than the Luke Tree, was recorded on the 15th of January 2017.

The next episode would be released on the 19th of February.

Nordstrom have dropped the brownies range of leather trousers from all their stores.

So unfair.

She's a great person, always pushing us to do the right thing.

What are you talking about?

Just uninventive...

You're talking about the Rani in some way.

Katomara being better than Martin.

[40:58]

We're supposed to gush all over her at some point.

It's sploosh, but with semen.

Note to self, cut that out.