WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 12:02:33

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Hello everyone.

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I'm Brendan and this is the 2nd episode of Flight Through Entirety

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where we're going to be covering part of Doctor Who's 1st season.

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We actually recorded it altogether, but as it is, we've discovered

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we don't have time for the whole thing.

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You're actually saying this before we've recorded the episode

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Brad.

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How do you know that?

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Well, I'm the editor.

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So, you see, I actually have to know what's going to come up

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before we even say it.

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I mean, for instance, I can make you say this.

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Lush, aggressive vegetation.

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You see what I mean?

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It's almost as if it's happening in real time.

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I'm Brendan.

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Oh, I'm Nathan.

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I'm the other one.

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So I'm Razzle on, he's OmeGarron, he's the other.

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Yes, I'm...

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Although everyone seems to be Linda Bellingham for this episode.

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Especially if you use gravy.

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Now, last time we discussed the pilot episode of Doctor Who, and

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this time around, we're looking at William Hartnell's 1st season

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proper.

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So the actual broadcast episodes.

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So we're going to start off with the broadcast version of an

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unearthly child and the following 3 episodes, sometimes referred

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to as the Tribe of Gum, or 100,000 BC.

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Hello, Toms Bilsbury, if you're listening.

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So, gentlemen, what do we think of the transmitted version of an

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unearthly child versus the pilot version we were discussing

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before?

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Well, I have no opinion.

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I'm probably the wrong person have on this podcast.

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Never the wrong person.

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Well, get out.

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What about you, Red?

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I'd prefer the pilot to the transmitter, just simply because Billy

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and Susan, I think, are closer together and whatever nights were

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handed down from the control box, the gods, about, I don't know

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well, if you can remember loosening it up or more naturalistic or

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just having some more flow, because nothing was working, they said

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it was all felt very stilted.

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I kind of liked that it felt silted, it is meant to feel strange

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and surprising and alien and dangerous and nothing you've ever

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seen before.

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You know, taking them back off the TV set and finding you can dive

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into it.

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And I don't get that so much from the transmitted version.

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But mostly it's just, um, feeling that very much in that raw state

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of the 1st of the trans, untransmitted, that Carol Anne Ford is

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the centrepiece, the guiding, the guiding light in the story, just

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as, just as Russell understood it when he rebooted for Rose.

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It's about the companion.

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It's interesting that Sydney Newman was really disappointed in her

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casting as a granddaughter, just to stop the sniggering from the

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from the ranks, you know, the thought, you know, we can't have her

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travelling with a young girl.

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So I can't, I can see what he means because there's a problem

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that's built up that we'll guess we'll talk about as this, as this

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talk about the season goes on, that she's too close to a narrative

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but also an alien, so she's neither us nor them.

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I actually think really like that.

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I don't think she, she would have worked as well had she been

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entirely familiar in just a schoolgirl, the idea of her being

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outside both of our world and, The, um, the worlds of Barbara and

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Ian make her between the doctor and us very much so.

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I think it's a real shame that that wasn't explored.

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But we get moments of it as we're going to discover this season.

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Can I disagree with Richard?

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I actually think that I actually think that the that Susan in the

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transmitted version is vastly worse and as I've said before, I

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think, you know, does Morris take her aside and say, listen, love

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if you're nowhere near stupid or panicky enough, you know, like I

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don't and so I don't quite know what they're aiming for.

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She's much, much better.

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And it, I think it, um, it, fatally, uh, it fatally damns the

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character, that, that, and we'll talk about this next time, I

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think, when, uh, when we discuss season 2 and the introduction of

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Vicky, where you have a character from the future, who is strange

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and alien, who gets to, um, you know, look condescendingly at

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Barbara and Ian, um, and be that sort of Starchild that Susan was

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meant to be, but she's having fun and she's plucky, whereas Susan

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is just sort of panicky and stupid, and it's not Caroline Ford's

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fault, but right from, well, you know, right from very early on, I

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think that she's, she sort of damns herself as a character.

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Whereas I think that the decision to get Bill Hartnell to tone it

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down and be more lovely was precisely the right decision.

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Oh, with added loveliness.

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You see him, you see him do doctor-ish things in episode one

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things that you can imagine, you know, all of the other doctors

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except Pert, we probably doing.

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And again, we talked about this last time.

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He's looking at things in the junkyard and not paying attention to

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Ian and Barbara and being distracted and and, you know, being a

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little bit silly and absent-minded and irritating.

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And that's the doctor, whereas the sort of grumpy old man from the

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pilot isn't really in the same vein.

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So I think it's, I think it is an improvement from the point of

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view of the doctor.

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And then just technically it's an improvement.

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The whole thing looks a bit better.

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Technically, I definitely agree, but performance wise, I would

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have liked us to have had some time to go from Cranky Billy to

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Grandfatherly Billy, because he's certainly got the range

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certainly does it, and he does it even in that in that 1st story.

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Oh, some great moments there.

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Turkish, you're going to get to.

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But it's what they were trying to do with Colin Baker.

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And maybe stretching that out too far, but I think it's...

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It's a, how did that go?

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But it's a really worthy experiment.

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Give the audience time to look, this is meant to be shocking and

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surprising.

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And for me, that's why the pilot is better because I really don't

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know where we are with it and I don't know what to think of these

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initial characters other than Billy is a dangerous figure.

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A big thing that shows that difference between the doctor's

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characterisation and the pilot and the transmitted version is that

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scene you were talking about when he's picking things up and

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looking at them.

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In the pilot, you get the impression that he's going, oh, now look

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at this, da da.

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Are they still listening?

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Are they still there?

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And he's sort of trying to distract Ian and Barbara by going, oh

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look at this.

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Whereas in the televised version, it's like, no, he's genuinely

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seen this thing and he's genuinely interested in it.

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Oh, people are still here.

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You know, he's not trying to be obfuscatious anymore.

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He's just gone, ooh, shiny thing.

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I mean, that is an aspect of every doctor's personality, the

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slight shiny thingness, even pertwee. especially if it was

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sandwiches.

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Ooh, shiny sandwiches.

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Cheesy whiny. tea.

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Well, tea.

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I mean, Susan in the transmitted 1st episode isn't vastly

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different.

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She's a little more scared and a little less aloof.

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I think the damage really starts to come in a scene you've talked

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about before where I, I, um, I think I'll let you say it.

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No, I mean, that is that scene in episode 2 where she like just

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falls over and has a big giant panic and a cry while the doctor

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sort of has wandered off somewhere.

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I mean, it's just embarrassing, really.

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And it's not some...

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I mean, it's something that they do again over and over again.

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If we get up to the reign of terror.

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That's, I mean, it really reaches its nadia and the reign of

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terror where, where she's panicking and so we decide not to escape

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from the cell or we decide not to escape.

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I'm looking forward to getting to that.

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There isn't a real idea for Susan's character at the end of it and

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for Carol's performance.

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Right.

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We haven't talked about much about it.

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There's not much to say about them, really, except right away

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Doctor Who seems to be doing political satire.

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You know, the tribe of gum, Karl and Tsar are the leaders of the

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labour and the conservative party.

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That's interesting.

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Because Cal, um, czar, rather.

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You know, he wants he wants to protect his tribe, but he wants to

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be the one in power providing the protection, which is very labour

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and very union, whereas Cal is very conservative.

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Like, I'm going to tell as many lies as I can.

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Sorry, controversial.

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Okay.

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Cali's very conservative in that he... waits for an opportune

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situation to prevent to present his point of view.

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Discards what doesn't really relate or discards anything which

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might make him weaker in his position and then takes his enemy's

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weakness and uses that as strength.

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And to be fair, so does Zaar.

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You know?

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So you've got the 2 sides of politics there.

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Not that I'm saying conservative politics is built on lies, but

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remember a lot of Carl's argument and attack is based on lying

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about czar.

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Now, Tzar, there's a lot of problems to Tzar.

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He imprisons our regulars, you know, he does lie to them, that he

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doesn't lie to his own tribe.

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Whereas that's something cow does.

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There's also that the fact that the back 3 episodes parallel the

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1st one.

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So we have time travellers going back into the distant past and

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dealing with primitive people, you know what I mean?

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So, um, Ian and Barbara get to see what it's like for the doctor

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and um, and Susan in some sense.

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And then someone, it's almost certainly Santa.

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For someone talking about the power struggle between the 2 men

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being like the power struggle between other doctor and Ian about

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who's going to be the star of the show.

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And so you get, so you do get these parallels, but despite all of

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that, like as sort of entertainment, it's a bit rough.

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And I have a friend who every so often watches it and then rings

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me up and does a caveman with a Rada accent. must make fire.

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The old woman now.

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Well, I'm glad you raised the point of there shall be no fire

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because there was a lot of fire in that episode and it's all

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called Eileen Wayne.

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And we have a great deal to thank Ms. Way for.

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It's not just the sound of a cat singing.

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Did you know that?

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Apparently she had, she recorded a cat singing and just played it

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to Tom Baker.

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Really?

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Yes, yes, she's had a real thing for her singing cats.

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She's an amazing woman on so many levels.

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Crazy. think she's great. she still with us?

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Sadly, nice.

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But her spirit lives on in a young man called Philip Van Pelton.

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Hello, Philip, if you're listening.

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Yes, channelling her as we speak.

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But she's terrific in this, and she really does hold it together

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and I love that there's spinning around out of, what are we seeing

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here?

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We're seeing revolutions.

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We've got...

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Okay, we're before the Perfumer Scandler of 64, only just.

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We're already getting this kind of sub-level free song of the.

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The political climate's starting to get agitated and people

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starting to question what's going on.

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You've got beyond the fringe just heading out.

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They're just starting to appear.

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There is such a thing as political satellite finally appearing on

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the BBC.

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Maybe we're getting a reflection of that in the way that you're

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seeing.

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This fractiousness of a tiny tribe set before civilisation.

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It's a really nice take on it.

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I haven't thought of that before.

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It is a, It's a bit of a slog though, isn't it?

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That, that, that, that's the thing, for all the sort of political

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commentary, it's still people kind of jumping up and down and

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going, ugh.

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A lot of bad BBC wigs as well.

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And just thinking, a thing about the Rada accents.

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If I were the kind of fan to rationalise things with crazy

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theories, which, coincidentally enough, I am.

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I have...

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It could be that, um, for the 1st say, 7 of the doctor's lives

246
00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:44.220
that the TARDIS's translation circuits, telepathic circuits are

247
00:12:44.220 --> 00:12:45.000
set to RP.

248
00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:46.440
They are a bit posh, aren't they?

249
00:12:46.500 --> 00:12:48.419
Yeah, generally bit bosh.

250
00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:53.039
And then lo and behold, done for one night of the 8 doctor's life

251
00:12:53.039 --> 00:12:56.399
they seem to be confused as to whether they're in America or

252
00:12:56.399 --> 00:12:56.820
Canada.

253
00:12:57.720 --> 00:13:02.340
I blame Dodo Chaplet. she did something when she walked in.

254
00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:05.580
Yeah, actually, yeah, Dodo has broken Dodo.

255
00:13:05.580 --> 00:13:10.679
Dodo broke every circuit she ever touched on so many levels.

256
00:13:10.740 --> 00:13:15.720
And then, you know, when the doctor went from being ultra received

257
00:13:15.720 --> 00:13:19.919
pronunciation, John Hurt, to being the northerner, that just

258
00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:24.179
completely broke them and you got all the accents at once for the

259
00:13:24.179 --> 00:13:25.740
Russell T. Davis era. and it's lovely.

260
00:13:27.960 --> 00:13:29.759
Oh what was that?

261
00:13:29.940 --> 00:13:33.539
I think that's the noise that tells us it's time to move on and

262
00:13:33.539 --> 00:13:34.559
talk about the Daleks.

263
00:13:34.620 --> 00:13:35.580
Ah, good, good.

264
00:13:35.639 --> 00:13:37.139
Can we use it for other stories as well?

265
00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:39.059
It's not the cake cue.

266
00:13:39.059 --> 00:13:40.500
It's not the cake cue.

267
00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:44.100
Oh, listen, we haven't introduced the cake, which is, in fact

268
00:13:44.100 --> 00:13:47.700
pecan slice prepared by my boyfriend, and we will be making the

269
00:13:47.700 --> 00:13:49.620
recipe available to you.

270
00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:53.399
Moist and nutty, like most of this proceeding.

271
00:13:53.460 --> 00:13:54.240
Yes, indeed.

272
00:13:54.299 --> 00:13:55.559
So let's have the noise again.

273
00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:58.860
And it's time to talk about the Daleks.

274
00:13:58.919 --> 00:14:00.299
Very 1st Dalek story.

275
00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:01.740
Is it?

276
00:14:01.860 --> 00:14:03.059
Oh, no, no, obviously.

277
00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:07.259
Is it, but is it actually about the Duck X?

278
00:14:07.559 --> 00:14:11.460
I actually, I would put it out there that it's the 1st story that

279
00:14:11.460 --> 00:14:15.120
isn't really about the Daleks at all, but it's in fact about a

280
00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:17.460
whole lot of other things and it really has nothing to do with the

281
00:14:17.460 --> 00:14:19.080
rest of the Dalek saga at all.

282
00:14:19.139 --> 00:14:22.559
The Daleks only become the Daleks in the next story to follow

283
00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:23.700
which we'll get to next year.

284
00:14:23.940 --> 00:14:28.379
It's, for me, it's an interesting composition on what science

285
00:14:28.379 --> 00:14:31.799
fiction is on the telly in 1963, 64.

286
00:14:31.980 --> 00:14:33.899
It's a soundscape and a lightscape.

287
00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:36.720
It has much more to do with scoring and much more to do with

288
00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:41.519
visually playing around with what a TV show can do.

289
00:14:41.580 --> 00:14:43.259
The Daleks themselves.

290
00:14:43.379 --> 00:14:46.379
I'll leave it there for the moment and I'll get back to it.

291
00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:46.919
What did you think?

292
00:14:46.980 --> 00:14:52.080
Well, I think, I mean, clearly that 1st episode where it's just

293
00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:56.759
the regulars, um, or did I dream that?

294
00:14:56.820 --> 00:14:59.279
No, it's just the regulars and the conjure.

295
00:14:59.340 --> 00:15:02.220
Oh, and a hand and a metal lizard.

296
00:15:02.279 --> 00:15:09.179
And and that really is, um, It is sort of about visuals, but you

297
00:15:09.179 --> 00:15:11.519
know, you've got a tiny telly in the corner of the room and so

298
00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:14.279
you're kind of very limited in the impact of the visuals.

299
00:15:14.340 --> 00:15:17.100
I'm jumping ahead into the centre of the story, yeah.

300
00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:20.039
But, but, um, it is sound.

301
00:15:21.659 --> 00:15:25.320
And certainly that the huge climactic scene at the end where

302
00:15:25.320 --> 00:15:28.320
Barbara is just being menaced by a whole bunch of doors and

303
00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:28.679
stuff.

304
00:15:28.740 --> 00:15:32.220
But because the corridors are really interestingly shaped and

305
00:15:32.220 --> 00:15:36.779
because the sound is so good, it's really, really tense and quite

306
00:15:36.779 --> 00:15:37.500
terrifying.

307
00:15:37.559 --> 00:15:41.100
And that, I mean, that cliffhanger is sort of unequal, isn't it?

308
00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:42.419
Just utterly spectacular.

309
00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:43.440
It's a beautiful thing.

310
00:15:43.500 --> 00:15:45.840
It's probably worth noting at this point that, you know, we've

311
00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:50.879
mentioned Mervyn Penfield last time. in his featured in the

312
00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:55.559
adventures in time and space, as the inventor of the pinny

313
00:15:55.559 --> 00:15:58.080
prompter, as he called it, or the auto queue as everybody else.

314
00:15:58.139 --> 00:16:01.139
And there's that lovely moment where he's acknowledged for doing

315
00:16:01.139 --> 00:16:01.320
that.

316
00:16:01.379 --> 00:16:02.159
He was old school.

317
00:16:02.220 --> 00:16:07.559
Um, and But old school for the BBC in the late 50s, early 60s was

318
00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:10.740
actually still very expressive. and I've been hoping on about

319
00:16:10.740 --> 00:16:11.879
German expressionism.

320
00:16:11.940 --> 00:16:14.159
I'm going to do that when we get to the sensor rights later on.

321
00:16:14.340 --> 00:16:20.100
But there was a big thing in the BBC at the time with creating new

322
00:16:20.100 --> 00:16:21.539
visuals and new sounds.

323
00:16:21.659 --> 00:16:26.220
So they were more interested in things like bringing those German

324
00:16:26.220 --> 00:16:27.659
expressionist ideas and new things.

325
00:16:27.720 --> 00:16:32.100
So you get past, you get very VCUs, close-ups of people's faces

326
00:16:32.100 --> 00:16:34.620
half a face, and you'll get a black curtain with white objects

327
00:16:34.620 --> 00:16:39.059
floating, like a Juan Mero image of to symbolise things.

328
00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:40.919
It was actually very expressionistic.

329
00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:43.080
And the new guys were saying, no, bugger that.

330
00:16:43.139 --> 00:16:43.740
Let's get some more.

331
00:16:43.740 --> 00:16:46.440
Bug, we did feature in the BBC.

332
00:16:46.500 --> 00:16:50.220
Let's get some more, get some actual naturalism here.

333
00:16:50.279 --> 00:16:53.820
So let's sort of have real-time real movement, have some real

334
00:16:53.820 --> 00:16:55.679
action, not quite so stagey.

335
00:16:55.740 --> 00:16:56.940
So constructed.

336
00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:00.059
So even though we see Pinfield as being old school, to our eyes

337
00:17:00.059 --> 00:17:03.600
now he would probably be more animal guard than the new new school

338
00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:08.039
which was make it real, make it natural, make it post John Osborn

339
00:17:08.039 --> 00:17:09.720
give it a bit of kitchen sink realism.

340
00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:14.099
I think the German expressionism you mentioned. does come back to

341
00:17:14.099 --> 00:17:15.420
that 1st episode.

342
00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:17.519
It's very Dr. Kalagari.

343
00:17:17.579 --> 00:17:20.759
And strange corridors, the shadows.

344
00:17:21.539 --> 00:17:21.779
Thank you.

345
00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:25.140
That's what I wanted to say because Ray Kouzik was one of the new

346
00:17:25.140 --> 00:17:30.299
boys who was going for symbolism, rather than metaphor.

347
00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:32.759
We'll get to this, if you want to get to it, we'll get to it

348
00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:33.000
later.

349
00:17:33.059 --> 00:17:38.039
But Cusick's big hero, architecturally appears to be gaudy.

350
00:17:38.099 --> 00:17:40.680
The cars are familiar, the bus or anything.

351
00:17:40.740 --> 00:17:43.980
But he has a trope with circles.

352
00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:47.880
There are circles in the corridors of of power of the Dalek city.

353
00:17:47.940 --> 00:17:49.799
There's circles on the sensor right spaceship.

354
00:17:49.859 --> 00:17:54.900
There's um, it's a, it's a nice kind of thing with, with, there's

355
00:17:54.900 --> 00:17:55.680
no right ankles.

356
00:17:55.740 --> 00:17:57.299
It's a semi-organic space.

357
00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:02.339
The music then is music concrete, um, reinterpreted and um

358
00:18:02.339 --> 00:18:04.619
carrying on by Tristan Carey's workshop.

359
00:18:04.740 --> 00:18:09.180
We should maybe take a moment to just have a little worship of

360
00:18:09.180 --> 00:18:12.299
Tristan Carey and the extraordinary things he did for early

361
00:18:12.299 --> 00:18:14.460
electronic music.

362
00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:18.359
Yes, it's just so it comes out of the atmosphere of the forest.

363
00:18:18.420 --> 00:18:20.880
Like it's almost like it's a sound you could hear in the forest

364
00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:26.460
but then it becomes a strange, unnatural sound and then it goes

365
00:18:26.460 --> 00:18:27.660
back into natural sound.

366
00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:28.680
That's very unnerving.

367
00:18:28.740 --> 00:18:31.019
Very unnerving and there's very dreamlike space.

368
00:18:31.079 --> 00:18:34.140
The whole thing and the way it's shot and the slowness and then

369
00:18:34.140 --> 00:18:37.859
the quickness of the camera cuts and the narrative itself is very

370
00:18:37.859 --> 00:18:38.279
odd.

371
00:18:38.339 --> 00:18:40.259
It's a beautiful piece, that 1st episode.

372
00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:41.160
Dead planet.

373
00:18:41.220 --> 00:18:44.039
Something that really affects me.

374
00:18:44.099 --> 00:18:47.339
Not having the same knowledge as you do about design and

375
00:18:47.339 --> 00:18:52.440
architecture, but the design of the Dalek city and those curved

376
00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:56.039
doorways, which then permeate throughout Dalek designs

377
00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:56.339
everywhere.

378
00:18:56.460 --> 00:19:01.500
You're sort of, it makes you feel uneasy. when you're watching.

379
00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:07.259
Sounds and vision, you get everything on radio.

380
00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:09.660
The rills have one of those.

381
00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:10.380
Yes.

382
00:19:10.380 --> 00:19:10.859
They do.

383
00:19:10.920 --> 00:19:11.759
I don't know what it was.

384
00:19:11.819 --> 00:19:13.680
Something that must come with alien garden centres.

385
00:19:13.799 --> 00:19:15.000
That's it.

386
00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:21.299
What is unnerving about those corridors and you don't necessarily

387
00:19:21.299 --> 00:19:24.779
pick up on it when you're watching it as a child because I think I

388
00:19:24.779 --> 00:19:26.519
1st watched this story when I was about eight.

389
00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:31.619
But as an adult, you suddenly realise it's unnerving because A

390
00:19:31.619 --> 00:19:33.119
human would not make those shapes.

391
00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:38.099
A human would not have doors like that in, you know, just as a

392
00:19:38.099 --> 00:19:38.940
functional thing.

393
00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:42.240
So who builds something to be that functional and it ends up being

394
00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:47.039
these aliens, the likes of which had never been seen. and has

395
00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:48.720
often been copied afterwards.

396
00:19:48.779 --> 00:19:52.319
And you know you've gotten iconic design when other people copy

397
00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:52.680
it.

398
00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:55.980
So that that to me is.

399
00:19:56.220 --> 00:20:01.559
The immediate effect of that design, it just makes you feel uneasy

400
00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:04.259
because you can see that's a building.

401
00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:05.460
You can see that's a doorway.

402
00:20:05.519 --> 00:20:08.880
But why on earth would you design a doorway like that because

403
00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:10.140
you're not on earth, that's why.

404
00:20:10.500 --> 00:20:11.880
Exactly.

405
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:14.160
Makes me pretty pictures too.

406
00:20:14.220 --> 00:20:14.759
Yes.

407
00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:18.359
I mean, that looks spectacular, though. end of the scene.

408
00:20:18.420 --> 00:20:21.059
So does it all go to hell when the Daleks appear in episode two?

409
00:20:21.119 --> 00:20:23.160
Um, I don't think so.

410
00:20:23.220 --> 00:20:23.460
No.

411
00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:29.400
But I do agree with the critique by Cornell Day and topping in the

412
00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:33.180
discontinuity guide, which is it's a 7 part story and it's a story

413
00:20:33.180 --> 00:20:33.960
of 2 halves.

414
00:20:34.019 --> 00:20:39.599
And for the 1st 4 episodes, You have this sort of tense, almost a

415
00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:46.259
thriller, um, based on, What will alien life actually be like?

416
00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:49.559
Will it be so different to us that it is impossible to have

417
00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:50.759
anything up than hostility?

418
00:20:50.819 --> 00:20:52.619
You know, it's very thought provoking sci-fi.

419
00:20:52.680 --> 00:20:56.160
And the last 3 episodes are Flash Gordon, Dan, Dan making our way

420
00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:57.480
across dangerous landscapes.

421
00:20:57.539 --> 00:20:58.980
Both halves are very good.

422
00:20:59.579 --> 00:21:03.660
And it's interesting because it sets up the 2 kinds of science

423
00:21:03.660 --> 00:21:07.079
fiction that Doctor Who will do and eventually meld, which is the

424
00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:11.099
thought-provoking allegorical science fiction.

425
00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:13.920
I don't think it's a surprise to anyone that Terry Nation got the

426
00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:20.099
idea of the Daleks and their dependence on their dependence on

427
00:21:20.099 --> 00:21:23.039
static electricity and radiation from the 2nd World War.

428
00:21:23.099 --> 00:21:23.880
Yeah.

429
00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:28.619
How much of that is Whitaker, though, because he's such a thing on

430
00:21:28.619 --> 00:21:29.460
static electricity.

431
00:21:29.579 --> 00:21:33.420
And then pairing that with sci-fi runaround.

432
00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:34.559
Yeah.

433
00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:38.279
And, you know, in this in this case, they're almost entirely split

434
00:21:38.279 --> 00:21:40.200
up, but in the future, they would be melded together.

435
00:21:41.099 --> 00:21:46.259
And so is episodes 2 to 4 racist.

436
00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:52.140
See, I don't, I, you know, I know that the Daleks are based on

437
00:21:52.140 --> 00:21:53.700
fascism and Nazism.

438
00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:55.859
This is where I would question that.

439
00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:56.759
Are they?

440
00:21:56.819 --> 00:22:02.099
Or is that a reconning from Nation when he gets 1975 with Genesis

441
00:22:02.099 --> 00:22:02.940
of the Daleks?

442
00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:06.299
Because at this point, when we look at what's going on with

443
00:22:06.299 --> 00:22:11.339
communism and the split from China's CPC and Russia's Soviet state

444
00:22:11.339 --> 00:22:16.380
only just having occurred in the last decade, we've got things

445
00:22:16.380 --> 00:22:19.140
like, and we'll get to this with sensorites and reign of terror

446
00:22:19.140 --> 00:22:23.039
where you're getting this commentary on what's happening right

447
00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:23.220
now.

448
00:22:23.339 --> 00:22:25.259
I think the Daleks symbolise communism.

449
00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:29.460
It's the straight down the line, it's the lack of individual

450
00:22:29.460 --> 00:22:30.059
personality.

451
00:22:30.119 --> 00:22:33.480
It's all the fears, the very Huxley-like fears of what communism

452
00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:34.140
would say.

453
00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:36.480
And I think people have kind of moved on at this stage.

454
00:22:36.599 --> 00:22:38.339
The war, although it was 20 years ago.

455
00:22:38.579 --> 00:22:42.240
With the rapidity of cultural changes, it was seen as something

456
00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:43.259
that happened back then.

457
00:22:43.319 --> 00:22:47.819
The threat here and now was the Cold War, was nuclear, as you say

458
00:22:47.819 --> 00:22:54.839
nuclear holocaust, and this distalt state of being a nothingness

459
00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:55.740
that is communism.

460
00:22:55.799 --> 00:22:57.960
There are no individuals, there's just the state.

461
00:22:58.019 --> 00:23:03.599
It was pretty terrifying for the West who still had its fundament

462
00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:08.279
in the humanities to see that a machine state, which is kind of

463
00:23:08.279 --> 00:23:10.140
what communism was certainly meant to be.

464
00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:12.839
Mao talked about the great leap forward.

465
00:23:12.900 --> 00:23:14.700
Yeah, it's not just a Billy Bragg song.

466
00:23:14.759 --> 00:23:19.200
In 58 that these five-year plan of massive pogroms against the

467
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:24.480
people and enforced um, enforced famine, actually, deliberately

468
00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:26.759
going around and doing horrid things to people.

469
00:23:26.819 --> 00:23:33.119
Um, and denying them, denying them that the, the, their own crops

470
00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:37.559
lying in their own food, taking half of the, the reserves and

471
00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:40.380
putting it into central storage seems to be kind of a symbol

472
00:23:40.380 --> 00:23:43.500
between the wandering files and the centrist government of the

473
00:23:43.500 --> 00:23:44.160
Dalek city.

474
00:23:44.220 --> 00:23:48.240
I also think, though, I mean, you know, the whole thing goes back

475
00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:51.480
to the time machine, you know, where you have humanity splits into

476
00:23:51.480 --> 00:23:53.400
2 into 2 races.

477
00:23:53.400 --> 00:23:56.819
And the film makes that much more about...

478
00:23:56.880 --> 00:24:00.420
Oh, well, you know, it's it's A she whales and all of that sort of

479
00:24:00.420 --> 00:24:00.660
thing.

480
00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:02.519
So it's about class in HG Wells.

481
00:24:02.579 --> 00:24:03.180
Do you know what I mean?

482
00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:06.839
The aristocrats turning to the Eloy, who can't even speak, you

483
00:24:06.839 --> 00:24:12.180
know, um, and, you know, they, they lounge around by the river

484
00:24:12.180 --> 00:24:13.920
eating river fruits and that kind of thing.

485
00:24:14.819 --> 00:24:17.279
And someone falls in and starts to drown and they're like, oh

486
00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:17.579
dear.

487
00:24:17.640 --> 00:24:22.259
And yeah. and then you've got the morox morons.

488
00:24:23.099 --> 00:24:23.880
Morlocks, thank you.

489
00:24:23.940 --> 00:24:27.299
And they're industrial workshop people and all of that sort of

490
00:24:27.299 --> 00:24:27.539
thing.

491
00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:31.799
So you've got you've got, um, and it seems to me that he's got the

492
00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:32.460
idea from that.

493
00:24:32.519 --> 00:24:39.779
So the thals are... blonde white people who Susan recognises as

494
00:24:39.779 --> 00:24:40.559
being perfect.

495
00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:44.039
Scandalwegian.

496
00:24:44.099 --> 00:24:48.359
Yeah, it's very much George Powell's time machine of the 50s

497
00:24:48.359 --> 00:24:48.539
yeah.

498
00:24:48.599 --> 00:24:54.720
And then, you know, you've got the morally corrupt, ugly people.

499
00:24:54.779 --> 00:24:58.559
I mean, I think I think it's at least slightly accidentally racist

500
00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:02.339
in that. the thals are all blonde white people.

501
00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:07.380
And maybe maybe we go back and think of the Daleks as a Nazi

502
00:25:07.380 --> 00:25:13.259
analogue just to kind of expunge from our memory how Aryan, the

503
00:25:13.259 --> 00:25:17.519
conception of the files is in its in its original, even in the

504
00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:18.480
Planet of the Daleks.

505
00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:22.140
Bernard, horseful in a blonde wig.

506
00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:22.920
Do you know what I mean?

507
00:25:22.980 --> 00:25:24.660
Like everyone's horribly blonde.

508
00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:27.180
You know.

509
00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:29.460
So, I mean, I think there is something...

510
00:25:29.460 --> 00:25:31.200
They're horribly blind.

511
00:25:31.259 --> 00:25:33.240
I think that's the title of this episode.

512
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:37.319
We can get a musical.

513
00:25:37.380 --> 00:25:39.359
A broadband...

514
00:25:39.420 --> 00:25:42.539
Yeah, so I think I think the racism is inadvertent, but it is kind

515
00:25:42.539 --> 00:25:43.859
of weirdly there.

516
00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:50.160
Um, uh, and and I think that, like all of Terry Nation stuff, it's

517
00:25:50.160 --> 00:25:53.400
all just a bit less clever than it would like to think it is.

518
00:25:53.460 --> 00:25:59.220
And so, you know, that whole thing, the, you know, evil science

519
00:25:59.220 --> 00:26:03.839
fiction monsters on one hand and beautiful people is all sort of

520
00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:06.779
really very much being done before.

521
00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:09.839
And the thing that really lifts it is that the Daleks are

522
00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:11.339
fantastic.

523
00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:13.140
You know, they just look great.

524
00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:14.940
The voices are perfect.

525
00:26:15.059 --> 00:26:16.380
They do look lovely.

526
00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:19.740
It's probably worth noting at this point that Mervyn Pinfield did

527
00:26:19.740 --> 00:26:24.359
suggest to, um, Cusick, that the Daleks could actually be actors

528
00:26:24.359 --> 00:26:28.079
in silver painted cardboard tubes on their arms and legs, just

529
00:26:28.079 --> 00:26:30.180
like you can do to cats with smarty toes.

530
00:26:30.299 --> 00:26:33.660
And that would be... to do to cats.

531
00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:34.559
Yeah, it's fantastic.

532
00:26:34.619 --> 00:26:37.559
But to do to actors and maybe I don't think we'd quite have the

533
00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:40.500
series. kind of the 60s cyberman really, though, isn't it?

534
00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:43.440
Yeah, it's very German theatre.

535
00:26:44.099 --> 00:26:47.400
Thank you, Raven. sticking to your guys.

536
00:26:47.460 --> 00:26:49.740
Or you, Georgian state dances.

537
00:26:49.799 --> 00:26:54.000
Now, there is something that was, I think, meant to happen in the

538
00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:54.240
story.

539
00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:57.960
And I can't remember at the moment, whether it was Inter Nation's

540
00:26:57.960 --> 00:27:01.079
original script, but got cut because people thought it would be

541
00:27:01.079 --> 00:27:04.380
too subtle, or if it's something David Whitaker introduced in the

542
00:27:04.380 --> 00:27:07.079
novelisation, because it's been about 2 years since I last read

543
00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:07.380
it.

544
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:13.500
But during the conversation where Susan finally meets Aladdin.

545
00:27:13.559 --> 00:27:16.920
She says, they said you were mutations, but you're not.

546
00:27:16.980 --> 00:27:17.519
You're beautiful.

547
00:27:17.579 --> 00:27:21.299
Either in the original script or in the novelisation, Aladdin

548
00:27:21.299 --> 00:27:23.880
actually says, what do you mean we're beautiful, we're hideous?

549
00:27:23.940 --> 00:27:26.339
Because that's... reading that as well.

550
00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:27.720
I think that's in the Whittaker.

551
00:27:27.779 --> 00:27:28.079
Oh okay.

552
00:27:28.140 --> 00:27:29.160
Yeah, it's not in the script.

553
00:27:29.220 --> 00:27:33.059
I thought she said you're perfect, which is just...

554
00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:34.200
Yes, not a little girl anymore.

555
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:39.660
Okay, so the Whittaker novelisation.

556
00:27:39.720 --> 00:27:44.460
And that's a very interesting concept that what is a human notion

557
00:27:44.460 --> 00:27:49.019
of beauty is not the thoul notion of beauty.

558
00:27:49.079 --> 00:27:53.279
To them, they are mutations and maybe they did have 4 eyes and 3

559
00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:55.440
noses before and to them that was beautiful.

560
00:27:55.500 --> 00:28:01.920
Um, That actually brings me to the 1st of several moments I'm

561
00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:04.440
going to mention because I've actually been for the last year and

562
00:28:04.440 --> 00:28:07.200
a half sitting down with my boyfriend and we've been watching one

563
00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:10.200
or 2 episodes of Doctor Who were Knights. where currently halfway

564
00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:11.039
through Tom Baker.

565
00:28:11.099 --> 00:28:13.500
But I've been taking notes on what he says.

566
00:28:13.559 --> 00:28:15.720
So if you could just pass me that notebook next to you, because

567
00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:18.900
I've, um, I've chosen a few key things, he said, and one of them

568
00:28:18.900 --> 00:28:23.640
is from Daleks, um, where all I've written is the note

569
00:28:23.640 --> 00:28:29.700
homoeroticism, which I think he was mainly relating to Antidus and

570
00:28:29.700 --> 00:28:33.960
Ganitus, um, the 2 brothers who were constantly moaning to each

571
00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:34.200
other.

572
00:28:34.259 --> 00:28:37.440
I don't I don't think he was actually being serious, but I think

573
00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:38.519
he just kind of went at one point.

574
00:28:38.579 --> 00:28:42.299
Okay, so we have 2 muscular blonde boys in leather trousers with

575
00:28:42.299 --> 00:28:44.460
holes cut out fighting on the side of a beach.

576
00:28:45.059 --> 00:28:47.279
No, I...

577
00:28:47.339 --> 00:28:48.359
No, no.

578
00:28:48.599 --> 00:28:52.920
No, neither can I. But, you know, there's so much to interpret

579
00:28:52.920 --> 00:28:53.279
isn't there?

580
00:28:53.339 --> 00:28:54.900
And that's the thing.

581
00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:57.420
I thought it would be interesting to occasionally bring up Rod's

582
00:28:57.420 --> 00:29:01.920
observations because although he's been a casual viewer, really, he

583
00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:04.980
was watching his 1st memories of Doctor Who are watching 1st round

584
00:29:04.980 --> 00:29:05.940
Patrick Troughton.

585
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:06.900
That's pretty interesting.

586
00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:11.099
Yeah, um, see to death is his 1st memory of Doctor.

587
00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:11.700
How do you know that?

588
00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:12.359
Just the foam.

589
00:29:12.420 --> 00:29:14.339
I remember the doctor struggling through foam.

590
00:29:14.460 --> 00:29:15.900
That's what he remembers.

591
00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:17.940
He remembers the doctor struggling through foam, the bubble

592
00:29:17.940 --> 00:29:20.759
blowing up behind him and the ice warrior silhouetted coming over

593
00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:21.059
the hill.

594
00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:23.700
But I thought it'd be interesting to throw in his observations

595
00:29:23.700 --> 00:29:26.640
occasionally because unlike us, he doesn't live eat and breathe.

596
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:27.779
The series.

597
00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:30.779
Well, it sounds like he does if he's up to Tom Baker.

598
00:29:30.839 --> 00:29:34.680
Oh, but yeah, but, you know, he couldn't, for instance, we were

599
00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:36.059
watching an episode of The Avengers morning.

600
00:29:36.119 --> 00:29:37.140
He says, oh, I know that guy.

601
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:38.519
He's been in other Avengers episodes.

602
00:29:38.579 --> 00:29:39.839
I said he was in Spearhead from Space.

603
00:29:39.900 --> 00:29:42.779
He played Channing, who was assisting the...

604
00:29:42.839 --> 00:29:43.559
Oh yes, that's right.

605
00:29:43.619 --> 00:29:44.759
Yeah.

606
00:29:44.759 --> 00:29:45.240
Yeah.

607
00:29:45.299 --> 00:29:47.640
So he's not a sad sack, right?

608
00:29:47.700 --> 00:29:49.980
So anything else to say on the Dialects traps?

609
00:29:50.039 --> 00:29:52.500
Well, I mean, the last 3 episodes are boring, are they?

610
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:56.039
Well, they're not boring so much as they're, you know, they're

611
00:29:56.039 --> 00:29:57.240
standard sci-fi fair.

612
00:29:57.480 --> 00:30:01.380
As we can see from the film version and we'll be doing a podcast

613
00:30:01.380 --> 00:30:04.380
for the films later, as we can see from the film version.

614
00:30:04.440 --> 00:30:05.759
Yes, I just decided that now.

615
00:30:06.359 --> 00:30:08.700
A lot of the story.

616
00:30:08.759 --> 00:30:13.019
A lot of the film version of the story is devoted to that trek

617
00:30:13.019 --> 00:30:16.799
through the tunnel sequence because that's the action event.

618
00:30:16.859 --> 00:30:18.240
You know?

619
00:30:18.299 --> 00:30:19.140
Is it done well?

620
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:22.559
Because I mean, it is sort of a bit tiresome in that tiny lime

621
00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:24.720
grove studio on a BBC budget.

622
00:30:24.779 --> 00:30:27.299
I think just for 3 episodes, it works.

623
00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:30.900
You know, it doesn't, it doesn't require too much mental power, but

624
00:30:30.900 --> 00:30:32.099
it doesn't outstay its welcome.

625
00:30:32.220 --> 00:30:36.180
And it does give the doctor a chance to be more heroic. because

626
00:30:36.180 --> 00:30:38.400
when he realises the dialects are going to blow up the bomb and

627
00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:39.059
destroy everyone.

628
00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:41.880
He says, look, I have this amazing ship.

629
00:30:41.940 --> 00:30:42.660
I will show it to you.

630
00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:45.839
And I'll show you how it works and I'll tell you its secrets, but

631
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:46.799
you have to not kill everyone.

632
00:30:46.859 --> 00:30:50.220
And later on, like in the colour era when the Daleks want the

633
00:30:50.220 --> 00:30:50.579
TARDIS.

634
00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:51.900
The doctor's like, no, fine, kill everyone.

635
00:30:51.960 --> 00:30:52.920
I'm not giving you the TARDIS.

636
00:30:53.339 --> 00:30:58.680
And I suppose since he started by being so naughty and selfish in

637
00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:02.460
sort of episode one, When's the fluid link come up, episode two?

638
00:31:02.519 --> 00:31:05.460
So he has been naughty, so he probably does need to redeem himself

639
00:31:05.460 --> 00:31:07.019
with something heroic at the end.

640
00:31:07.079 --> 00:31:10.140
And I think the end is pretty good.

641
00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:13.980
Or the, we're in the control room.

642
00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:16.680
Yeah, there's some cardboard Daleks up against the wall.

643
00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:19.680
You know, I think the end sort of works.

644
00:31:19.740 --> 00:31:23.160
But the 3 episodes sort of leading up to it, I think, a bit of a

645
00:31:23.160 --> 00:31:23.460
trial.

646
00:31:26.819 --> 00:31:29.640
So, there's that noise again.

647
00:31:29.700 --> 00:31:33.480
So time to go on to the edge of destruction.

648
00:31:34.380 --> 00:31:35.819
Right.

649
00:31:35.880 --> 00:31:42.119
So, um, 2 episodes written in a hurry to varying stories, the sets

650
00:31:42.119 --> 00:31:43.859
for Marco Polo weren't ready yet.

651
00:31:43.920 --> 00:31:46.440
They needed to make up 13 episodes just in case they got

652
00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:47.039
cancelled.

653
00:31:47.099 --> 00:31:49.799
All they had with a regulars because they'd spent so much money on

654
00:31:49.799 --> 00:31:50.339
the Daleks.

655
00:31:50.460 --> 00:31:51.059
Call it what you will.

656
00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:55.319
We got 2 episodes set inside the TARDIS with only the 4 regulars.

657
00:31:55.380 --> 00:31:59.160
And if you'll indulge me for a moment, I just like to say how I

658
00:31:59.160 --> 00:32:00.119
1st came to this story.

659
00:32:00.180 --> 00:32:03.359
It was actually reading Nigel Robinson's novelisation.

660
00:32:03.420 --> 00:32:06.180
It's a good, good place to discuss.

661
00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:07.019
It's brilliant.

662
00:32:07.140 --> 00:32:12.240
And there's this really tense and scary couple of chapters where

663
00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:14.460
the doctor and Ian go down to the tons engine rooms.

664
00:32:14.519 --> 00:32:16.619
And it's all steampunk, right?

665
00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:18.180
It's brass and...

666
00:32:18.180 --> 00:32:21.299
Brass and Ian can hear all these noises and so the doctor goes off

667
00:32:21.299 --> 00:32:24.779
in front of him, but then to the side of him, Ian sees shadows and

668
00:32:24.779 --> 00:32:28.319
people moving about and it's just so scary and tense.

669
00:32:28.380 --> 00:32:31.559
So then I got... and very well zoomed.

670
00:32:31.619 --> 00:32:33.240
Very, very well said.

671
00:32:33.299 --> 00:32:37.140
And then I got the copy on video, which was like a 3rd generation

672
00:32:37.140 --> 00:32:41.880
snowballed copy and the doctor and Anne go off to check the

673
00:32:41.880 --> 00:32:42.299
systems.

674
00:32:42.359 --> 00:32:44.279
I'm like, yeah, and then there's a conversation between Barbara

675
00:32:44.279 --> 00:32:46.559
and Susan, and then we cut to the doctor and Ian in front of the

676
00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:46.740
fort.

677
00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:48.059
Okay, they're saying, no, everything's fine.

678
00:32:48.599 --> 00:32:54.180
So to say I was a little disappointed with the televised version.

679
00:32:54.240 --> 00:32:58.380
You've hit something right there that's so much that we can see

680
00:32:58.380 --> 00:33:01.619
now being able to review and rewatch these.

681
00:33:01.619 --> 00:33:10.319
May have had parallel with the way viewers watched them then in

682
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:14.880
that they had to use their imaginations and being able to only see

683
00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:15.900
something once.

684
00:33:16.019 --> 00:33:18.779
You rewrite it in your head and your memory is not very much of

685
00:33:18.779 --> 00:33:19.740
what you've seen anyway.

686
00:33:19.799 --> 00:33:21.420
You've got a 2nd narrative.

687
00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:23.039
If you've already seen the thing once.

688
00:33:23.099 --> 00:33:23.460
Exactly.

689
00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:28.079
So that engine room thing may well be a memory for some viewers

690
00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:29.460
who assumed that to be there.

691
00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:30.900
And it's a really nice way of seeing it.

692
00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:34.619
Being able to go back and look at things and hypercritique them as

693
00:33:34.619 --> 00:33:38.579
you know, we possibly are doing, is if you want to be critical

694
00:33:38.579 --> 00:33:39.059
is.

695
00:33:39.900 --> 00:33:43.319
In a way, it's it's unnatural.

696
00:33:43.380 --> 00:33:46.380
It's, it's against the, it's against the viewing principle or the

697
00:33:46.380 --> 00:33:47.579
way that we did it at the time.

698
00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:50.940
I think the hard thing to do is actually to try and forget

699
00:33:50.940 --> 00:33:54.779
everything in the subsequent sort of 48 years of Doctor Who when

700
00:33:54.779 --> 00:33:59.099
you're watching. watching it, you know, um, I've just been

701
00:33:59.099 --> 00:34:04.619
watching Time Medler and the, and the, the summary, like the plot

702
00:34:04.619 --> 00:34:09.300
synopsis, describes the monk as another time lord.

703
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:12.420
And it just makes me very cross because they haven't been invented

704
00:34:12.420 --> 00:34:12.840
yet.

705
00:34:12.900 --> 00:34:16.559
Yeah, that's not how we're meant to see the doctor's planet.

706
00:34:16.619 --> 00:34:18.179
That's all you need to know.

707
00:34:18.239 --> 00:34:24.420
And so all of the stuff about the TARDIS and and, and, you know

708
00:34:24.420 --> 00:34:28.320
all those years and years of, it's very hard not to sort of bring

709
00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:30.239
that back in to while you're watching it.

710
00:34:30.300 --> 00:34:33.360
And, I don't know.

711
00:34:33.420 --> 00:34:36.480
Again, like I don't want to be really critical because I really

712
00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:40.679
like seasons one and 2 a lot and I love the Heart and Oleera

713
00:34:40.739 --> 00:34:41.519
really enjoying it.

714
00:34:41.579 --> 00:34:45.780
Um, but I actually think this one's a bit rough as well.

715
00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:51.059
And I think the reason is that it never really becomes clear what

716
00:34:51.059 --> 00:34:51.960
we're trying to do.

717
00:34:52.019 --> 00:34:54.840
So we get we get lots of sort of weird moments.

718
00:34:54.900 --> 00:35:01.019
We get Susan sort of stamping the, the, um, chair, she stabs a

719
00:35:01.019 --> 00:35:01.320
chair.

720
00:35:01.380 --> 00:35:02.880
Or whatever.

721
00:35:02.940 --> 00:35:06.179
And all of that sort of thing, but it's still not very clear

722
00:35:06.179 --> 00:35:06.960
what's going on.

723
00:35:07.019 --> 00:35:09.780
Like they've sort of lost their memory or are they sort of

724
00:35:09.780 --> 00:35:16.019
possessed and and it's clearly presented as a possibility, um, you

725
00:35:16.019 --> 00:35:19.559
know, Susan theorises that someone's in the TARDIS hiding inside

726
00:35:19.559 --> 00:35:20.159
them.

727
00:35:20.219 --> 00:35:24.960
And so it's something that we're supposed to be considering, but

728
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:30.059
it's not really done very clearly and it's never really resolved.

729
00:35:30.059 --> 00:35:33.659
And we don't know why Ian's been behaving like an idiot like at

730
00:35:33.659 --> 00:35:34.139
the beginning.

731
00:35:34.260 --> 00:35:35.460
I think William Russell knew either.

732
00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:36.599
Judging by his performance.

733
00:35:36.659 --> 00:35:40.139
It's very strange and it does sort of undermine it a little bit.

734
00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:42.900
And again, in the novelisation, the great thing in the

735
00:35:42.900 --> 00:35:45.659
novelisation is there's that chapter and it's set in the coal hill

736
00:35:45.659 --> 00:35:45.960
room.

737
00:35:46.019 --> 00:35:48.119
Yeah, which is...

738
00:35:48.119 --> 00:35:52.679
Which explains why Ian and Barbara are so detached in the 1st

739
00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:53.099
scene.

740
00:35:53.159 --> 00:35:55.019
Yeah, because, you know, because they just think they're in the

741
00:35:55.019 --> 00:35:57.900
staffroom and there's someone sick on the floor in the staffroom.

742
00:35:57.960 --> 00:35:58.619
Oh, no, okay.

743
00:35:58.679 --> 00:36:00.239
Yeah, we've got to deal with that, but don't panic.

744
00:36:00.300 --> 00:36:01.139
Yeah.

745
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:03.659
Because there's a moment where Barbara suddenly goes, of course

746
00:36:03.659 --> 00:36:04.500
we're in the tardise.

747
00:36:04.559 --> 00:36:07.739
And that's the 1st inkling you've had that she didn't realise she

748
00:36:07.739 --> 00:36:08.639
was in the top.

749
00:36:09.719 --> 00:36:14.159
So it is like it doesn't quite, it doesn't quite work.

750
00:36:16.619 --> 00:36:20.519
And, you know, the resolution is sort of slightly silly and things

751
00:36:20.519 --> 00:36:23.400
and, you know, like the fast return switch.

752
00:36:23.460 --> 00:36:27.360
Like, you know, I know it's been said a 100 times before, but he

753
00:36:27.360 --> 00:36:31.139
could have just pressed that before and taken them home or like

754
00:36:31.139 --> 00:36:32.340
pressed it a bunch of times.

755
00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:35.940
Maybe it's only got one memory, like an old pocket calculator, you

756
00:36:35.940 --> 00:36:40.380
know, but then there is something sort of magical about it still

757
00:36:40.380 --> 00:36:40.860
though, I think.

758
00:36:40.920 --> 00:36:46.380
Yeah, and I think I think it's because it helps solidify the

759
00:36:46.380 --> 00:36:48.059
character's relationships.

760
00:36:48.119 --> 00:36:52.380
And I think, especially it's the 1st moment where Barbara really

761
00:36:52.380 --> 00:36:56.760
becomes the Barbara, we think of, when we think of the series, when

762
00:36:56.760 --> 00:36:59.579
she stands up to the doctor and says, you stupid old man, you'd be

763
00:36:59.579 --> 00:37:00.360
dead if it wasn't.

764
00:37:00.420 --> 00:37:01.559
Can you do that now, Judith Lucy?

765
00:37:01.619 --> 00:37:03.539
You stupid old man.

766
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:07.860
You'd be dead if Ian hadn't made fire for you in the cave of

767
00:37:07.860 --> 00:37:08.460
skulls.

768
00:37:09.900 --> 00:37:13.260
That can't ever happen again. so beautiful.

769
00:37:13.320 --> 00:37:18.420
Actually, I think I've got a friend who's made of of dudes, this

770
00:37:18.420 --> 00:37:19.739
will be sent to him.

771
00:37:19.800 --> 00:37:20.880
And I just...

772
00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:21.960
I do do cross plate.

773
00:37:22.019 --> 00:37:27.059
So, you know, I could cosplay. and it will happen, folks.

774
00:37:27.119 --> 00:37:29.579
And there will be pictures on the interweb.

775
00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:32.460
A lovely thing you mentioned about Ian that you just reminded me

776
00:37:32.460 --> 00:37:38.519
is Nathan was talking last week about the setup of the characters

777
00:37:38.519 --> 00:37:41.880
and the internal dynamics and the tensions between them when we

778
00:37:41.880 --> 00:37:46.679
were going to have instead of Barbara and Ian, Cliff and Lola

779
00:37:46.679 --> 00:37:49.920
McGovern, they were much younger characters.

780
00:37:49.980 --> 00:37:51.539
Lola was about 23.

781
00:37:51.719 --> 00:37:55.920
Cliff was going to be about 28 and and standby for your icky

782
00:37:55.920 --> 00:38:00.539
factor to go off, the 2 women were supposed to have a sexual

783
00:38:00.539 --> 00:38:03.900
frisson for the cliff character.

784
00:38:03.960 --> 00:38:05.820
Oh, yeah, a bit of a love trying.

785
00:38:05.880 --> 00:38:08.639
Exactly, and have to resolve that, and this story would have been

786
00:38:08.639 --> 00:38:11.940
that place where that would have come up and been resolved.

787
00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:15.420
So there's a whole lot of Freud going on with those scissors and

788
00:38:15.420 --> 00:38:18.000
sometimes a pair of scissors is just a pair of scissors, going

789
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:21.539
into the sofa, the sofa behind which the rest of us are cowering

790
00:38:21.539 --> 00:38:22.800
in Freudian shame.

791
00:38:22.860 --> 00:38:25.920
I don't really want to explore that any further and I'm really

792
00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:27.360
glad it didn't happen.

793
00:38:27.420 --> 00:38:31.559
But I'm kind of getting maybe Ian is kind of where am I right now

794
00:38:31.559 --> 00:38:34.380
because if that had stayed in there?

795
00:38:34.440 --> 00:38:37.019
I get the sense of watching Edge of Destruction.

796
00:38:37.079 --> 00:38:39.960
There's a whole lot of other things that were lying on the cutting

797
00:38:39.960 --> 00:38:42.599
room floor again, those scissors that didn't make it to the screen

798
00:38:42.599 --> 00:38:46.079
and actually the fact that it's so confusing and it is actually

799
00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:46.679
hard to watch.

800
00:38:46.739 --> 00:38:47.880
It's not just the pace of it.

801
00:38:47.940 --> 00:38:50.400
And it's not just the lighting, which is really, you know, if

802
00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:52.500
you've eaten a lot of cheese before you've gone to bed, you've

803
00:38:52.500 --> 00:38:54.179
probably had visions not that dissimilar.

804
00:38:54.239 --> 00:38:58.679
The fact that it's all so disjointed and really isn't making sense

805
00:38:58.679 --> 00:39:01.980
even even internally, even unto its own story, it's just not

806
00:39:01.980 --> 00:39:02.639
making sense.

807
00:39:02.699 --> 00:39:04.739
I mean, its performance kind of works for me for that.

808
00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:06.179
Yeah, yeah.

809
00:39:06.300 --> 00:39:09.780
I mean, the thing is, it's kind of like William Russell is such a

810
00:39:09.780 --> 00:39:12.480
good actor and so much fun to watch that even when he's not giving

811
00:39:12.480 --> 00:39:13.559
a very good performance.

812
00:39:13.619 --> 00:39:15.420
He's still very entertaining.

813
00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:19.079
And centred and is the a surety in the narrative.

814
00:39:19.079 --> 00:39:22.019
He's the one that is actually the really the male lead.

815
00:39:22.079 --> 00:39:25.199
Billy's just silly old grandpa sitting on the sofa at home, as

816
00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:27.539
most people who are watching this would have, you know, we forget

817
00:39:27.539 --> 00:39:30.000
that it was a different life, then different countries.

818
00:39:30.059 --> 00:39:33.239
We didn't tend to have more old older people in the family home.

819
00:39:33.300 --> 00:39:34.199
It was usually their home.

820
00:39:34.260 --> 00:39:34.800
So...

821
00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:38.940
They were sitting on the sofa grumbling and making noises, just

822
00:39:38.940 --> 00:39:39.599
like Billy.

823
00:39:39.659 --> 00:39:42.659
Just as Ian is the hero, this is the story where Barbara becomes

824
00:39:42.659 --> 00:39:44.280
like the moral centre of the group.

825
00:39:44.340 --> 00:39:49.079
Because in the Daleks, when it's revealed, oh, the fluid link is

826
00:39:49.079 --> 00:39:50.340
left behind and they're like, what do we do?

827
00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:53.460
The doctor and Barbara, just say, oh, we'll use the files to get

828
00:39:53.460 --> 00:39:54.659
it for us and then we'll nick off.

829
00:39:54.719 --> 00:39:57.360
And Ian's one each other and says, well, no, we've got to set them

830
00:39:57.360 --> 00:39:57.840
free as well.

831
00:39:57.900 --> 00:39:58.679
And Barbara says, why?

832
00:39:58.739 --> 00:39:59.340
Yeah.

833
00:39:59.340 --> 00:40:03.000
And she gets quite cross at him and he's like the 1st lover's

834
00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:03.599
teeth, isn't it?

835
00:40:03.659 --> 00:40:07.739
Yeah, but here it's like she's kind of gone...

836
00:40:08.219 --> 00:40:10.260
She's standing up for herself, but she's standing up for Ian as

837
00:40:10.260 --> 00:40:11.400
well as incapacitated.

838
00:40:11.460 --> 00:40:16.079
But what she's really standing up for is we didn't ask to be in

839
00:40:16.079 --> 00:40:17.940
this situation, but we have helped you.

840
00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:18.960
You have helped us.

841
00:40:19.019 --> 00:40:19.860
We have helped each other.

842
00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:22.199
We cannot turn on each other now.

843
00:40:22.199 --> 00:40:26.400
And it's kind of then returned in that lovely scene at the end

844
00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:30.300
where the doctor comes to her and apologises and says, you know

845
00:40:30.300 --> 00:40:30.539
what?

846
00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:31.500
You were completely right.

847
00:40:31.559 --> 00:40:33.719
You've saved all our lives.

848
00:40:33.780 --> 00:40:35.219
I was so foolish.

849
00:40:35.340 --> 00:40:38.760
And she's just like, what, why are you even talking to me?

850
00:40:38.820 --> 00:40:41.039
And he says, look, you've taught me something about myself?

851
00:40:41.219 --> 00:40:43.500
And I want to return the favour.

852
00:40:43.559 --> 00:40:46.800
And I'm actually getting I'm actually getting a little lump in my

853
00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:49.739
throat talking about it because it's such a beautiful scene and I

854
00:40:49.739 --> 00:40:53.820
have a theory that the 1st doctor is in love with Barbara and I

855
00:40:53.820 --> 00:40:55.199
think it's... be.

856
00:40:55.260 --> 00:40:59.340
Can you imagine a series set up in the as it is now on the modern

857
00:40:59.340 --> 00:41:02.519
premise where it's just the doctor and the stolen younger female

858
00:41:02.519 --> 00:41:07.800
companion if it actually had just been Billy and Jackie. for that

859
00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:09.300
season without the other two.

860
00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:11.219
I think it would have been a really interesting program.

861
00:41:11.280 --> 00:41:14.039
Well, look at all, we'll get to this in a few minutes, but look at

862
00:41:14.039 --> 00:41:15.480
all their scenes together in the Aztecs.

863
00:41:15.539 --> 00:41:16.320
I can't wait.

864
00:41:16.380 --> 00:41:19.019
Yeah, all their scenes together and everything.

865
00:41:19.079 --> 00:41:19.860
Do you know what I mean?

866
00:41:19.980 --> 00:41:22.860
That's the, I think that's the big win of Edge of Destruction.

867
00:41:22.920 --> 00:41:26.940
I don't think it works, but I think it the fact that it ends with

868
00:41:26.940 --> 00:41:32.940
2 spectacular scenes with Jackie and Billy that that really

869
00:41:32.940 --> 00:41:33.659
redeems it.

870
00:41:33.719 --> 00:41:37.440
And as you said, every time they're on screen together talking to

871
00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:39.059
one another, they're just superb.

872
00:41:39.059 --> 00:41:40.739
Absolutely superb.

873
00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:44.699
And well, as we're talking about character, let's move on to one

874
00:41:44.699 --> 00:41:46.199
of the biggest character pieces in the whole season.

875
00:41:46.619 --> 00:41:48.480
Marco Polo.

876
00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:02.760
Oh, echopanthic...

877
00:42:02.760 --> 00:42:06.900
What if that gets discovered and returned to the BBC between now

878
00:42:06.900 --> 00:42:11.400
our recording and your editing and putting it up on the...

879
00:42:11.400 --> 00:42:14.039
Well, I'll look even sillier, which is kind of the point.

880
00:42:14.099 --> 00:42:16.199
I'll put in a little disclaimer.

881
00:42:16.199 --> 00:42:19.679
And then we can add it to an addendum for the season 2 podcast.

882
00:42:19.739 --> 00:42:20.760
Okay, there we go.

883
00:42:20.820 --> 00:42:22.559
Easy, easy. easy.

884
00:42:22.619 --> 00:42:23.159
I do want it back.

885
00:42:23.219 --> 00:42:24.420
I really...

886
00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:27.000
Do you know, I had never ever seen it before.

887
00:42:27.059 --> 00:42:30.480
And it's one of these things where...

888
00:42:31.139 --> 00:42:34.679
Like I've only listened to a few on audio, like Galaxy 4 and

889
00:42:34.679 --> 00:42:39.000
Dialect Masterpie and things, but I'd never even listen to it on

890
00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:39.420
audio.

891
00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:44.219
And I have this thing because I'm deeply shallow and childish that

892
00:42:44.219 --> 00:42:48.900
if they don't have monsters in them, I'm not quite so interested.

893
00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:53.219
This will come up later when we talk about the Aztecs, tragically.

894
00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:56.340
And so I'd never been sort of really highly motivated.

895
00:42:56.400 --> 00:42:59.039
And then again, I read Sandov's thing and Sandov is sort of a bit

896
00:42:59.039 --> 00:42:59.880
dismissive of it.

897
00:42:59.940 --> 00:43:05.760
And so I am doing what you're doing, Brandon, which is watching it

898
00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:06.780
all the way through.

899
00:43:06.840 --> 00:43:12.119
Um, Uh, and I'm just up to season three.

900
00:43:12.179 --> 00:43:13.380
So I'm just slightly behind you.

901
00:43:13.500 --> 00:43:14.400
Just a list one.

902
00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:19.260
I am going to give up work, though, so that I can so that I can

903
00:43:19.260 --> 00:43:22.199
keep up with the podcast, all right, over the next few months.

904
00:43:22.260 --> 00:43:23.940
Well, I would expect nothing.

905
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:24.599
No, well, yeah.

906
00:43:24.659 --> 00:43:28.980
And so this was the 1st recon that I had ever watched, you know

907
00:43:28.980 --> 00:43:30.719
and I was really nervous about it.

908
00:43:30.780 --> 00:43:33.900
The recons, like this, for those of you at home who aren't aware

909
00:43:33.900 --> 00:43:35.639
of this loose cannon, whoever they are.

910
00:43:35.699 --> 00:43:37.260
I'm sure they're lovely.

911
00:43:37.440 --> 00:43:41.579
They get all of the sort of surviving footage, all of these sort

912
00:43:41.579 --> 00:43:42.900
of publicity photos.

913
00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:44.639
They get the soundtrack.

914
00:43:44.699 --> 00:43:48.480
Every soundtrack to every episode exists and they created a video

915
00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:49.019
of it.

916
00:43:49.079 --> 00:43:53.639
And originally, originally you had to email them a videotape.

917
00:43:53.699 --> 00:43:55.079
No, I don't think you can do that.

918
00:43:55.139 --> 00:43:56.159
I think it does.

919
00:43:56.159 --> 00:43:57.239
It's very modern.

920
00:43:57.300 --> 00:44:00.000
You had to post them a videotape.

921
00:44:00.659 --> 00:44:03.539
And they would copy it on and send it back to you.

922
00:44:03.599 --> 00:44:04.559
Happy days.

923
00:44:04.619 --> 00:44:08.639
Now, don't tell anyone, but due to the magic of the internet, a

924
00:44:08.639 --> 00:44:10.380
lot of these are available on YouTube.

925
00:44:10.559 --> 00:44:14.219
Will we be able to post a link to this in our friendly happy

926
00:44:14.219 --> 00:44:15.300
podcast page?

927
00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:16.199
We may well.

928
00:44:16.260 --> 00:44:17.340
I'll take a note.

929
00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:19.079
It doesn't infringe anyone's copyright.

930
00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:20.579
It's just a YouTube link.

931
00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:24.239
So I watched it for the 1st time and I thought I'm not going to

932
00:44:24.239 --> 00:44:27.480
make it through a recon because that's going to be terribly

933
00:44:27.480 --> 00:44:27.840
boring.

934
00:44:27.900 --> 00:44:30.840
But in fact, it was just spectacular.

935
00:44:30.900 --> 00:44:36.239
And it's partly because the visuals are so stunning.

936
00:44:36.239 --> 00:44:39.719
And it's really, really heavily photographed.

937
00:44:39.719 --> 00:44:42.179
There's stacks and stacks.

938
00:44:42.300 --> 00:44:43.860
And beautiful colour photos.

939
00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:45.119
They really went all out on it.

940
00:44:45.179 --> 00:44:46.679
Oh, no, I'm a bit of a purist.

941
00:44:46.739 --> 00:44:47.159
I wouldn't watch.

942
00:44:47.219 --> 00:44:48.659
What's the colour phase?

943
00:44:48.780 --> 00:44:49.559
There is a version.

944
00:44:49.800 --> 00:44:52.320
It's an interesting thing, though, if we can just segue the

945
00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:55.320
performances in this, from what you're saying, like, look, okay, I

946
00:44:55.320 --> 00:44:58.079
have to admit, I've listened to the audio many, many times and

947
00:44:58.079 --> 00:45:00.420
I've looked at the images, but I haven't watched the loose

948
00:45:00.420 --> 00:45:01.079
cannons.

949
00:45:01.139 --> 00:45:04.800
So I find that when I'm listening to it, and I have just an audio

950
00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:07.980
experience of it, and that really nice Lucaroti novel, yay, John

951
00:45:07.980 --> 00:45:10.739
Lucaroti, everything he touches is gold until other people get

952
00:45:10.739 --> 00:45:13.199
their hands on it, I still like to think that his work is pure

953
00:45:13.199 --> 00:45:14.820
we'll get to reign of terror later.

954
00:45:14.880 --> 00:45:16.380
Yeah, what about Eric the Red?

955
00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:17.099
wasn't that one?

956
00:45:17.159 --> 00:45:19.559
Yeah That was one of his.

957
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:23.760
It's an interesting thing that the BBC was going for really highly

958
00:45:23.760 --> 00:45:26.460
saturated sets.

959
00:45:26.519 --> 00:45:29.099
Even the Daleks had lots of lovely cyan blue all over it.

960
00:45:29.159 --> 00:45:33.599
It wasn't just, it was more like Jane Mansfield's swimming pool.

961
00:45:33.659 --> 00:45:35.219
Yeah, it wasn't tech gray, the sets at all.

962
00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:38.519
The floor was a beautiful, shiny sign, poured floor blue.

963
00:45:38.579 --> 00:45:43.079
Um, and the people go in and repaint that every day while it was

964
00:45:43.079 --> 00:45:43.739
during the shooting.

965
00:45:43.800 --> 00:45:45.119
It's lovely glossy blue.

966
00:45:45.179 --> 00:45:45.840
Yeah.

967
00:45:45.900 --> 00:45:51.480
ITV at the same time, you know, whilst this series was on, was

968
00:45:51.480 --> 00:45:54.599
repeating episodes of the Buccaneers, which was already five, six

969
00:45:54.599 --> 00:45:58.199
7 years old, their sets were largely monochromatic.

970
00:45:58.260 --> 00:46:01.739
They had this thing of the directors of producers, whoever was in

971
00:46:01.739 --> 00:46:03.840
charge at the time, saying, I want to see exactly how it's going

972
00:46:03.840 --> 00:46:04.199
to go out.

973
00:46:04.320 --> 00:46:07.860
And I can't imagine that the performances you were getting on the

974
00:46:07.860 --> 00:46:11.039
rival network were just a little flattered because of it.

975
00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:14.760
Are you saying that they were like, that it was like, like the

976
00:46:14.760 --> 00:46:16.079
Buccaneers, I don't know anything about that.

977
00:46:16.139 --> 00:46:16.920
Is that the past?

978
00:46:16.980 --> 00:46:18.480
Are they pirates?

979
00:46:18.599 --> 00:46:20.519
I haven't seen it.

980
00:46:20.579 --> 00:46:23.280
It's just one of those things that, you know, British television

981
00:46:23.280 --> 00:46:28.679
at the time was largely fun historicals and nice ladies telling

982
00:46:28.679 --> 00:46:31.320
children how to play with rob puppets.

983
00:46:31.380 --> 00:46:32.280
Are they sitting?

984
00:46:32.280 --> 00:46:33.719
Oh, like, what would be your favourite, yes.

985
00:46:33.780 --> 00:46:37.380
So, but you're saying that they would do these sets, you know, it'd

986
00:46:37.380 --> 00:46:38.280
be the past, right?

987
00:46:38.340 --> 00:46:41.820
And but the set would all be painted in various shades of...

988
00:46:42.119 --> 00:46:45.300
There was more than one major direct major producer on the ITV

989
00:46:45.300 --> 00:46:48.300
networks who were saying, well, see, the cameras, we've got to

990
00:46:48.300 --> 00:46:50.159
remember, the tech wasn't there and you would strobe.

991
00:46:50.219 --> 00:46:54.900
So you'd get one of the few concessions that be made was that you

992
00:46:54.900 --> 00:46:59.039
never had pure wine in costumes, but the richness of the colours.

993
00:46:59.039 --> 00:47:01.440
And they understood they were a lot more cinematic, a lot more

994
00:47:01.440 --> 00:47:05.760
older people involved with the tech of it, saying, you know, it

995
00:47:05.760 --> 00:47:08.699
works, we've been shooting cinema in Britain for a long time in

996
00:47:08.699 --> 00:47:11.639
monochrome, but using colour sets, you don't get the depths of

997
00:47:11.639 --> 00:47:13.260
greys if you don't use colours.

998
00:47:13.320 --> 00:47:16.739
It actually doesn't transpose as well onto videotape.

999
00:47:16.860 --> 00:47:19.019
ITV wasn't getting that.

1000
00:47:19.079 --> 00:47:22.440
Maybe there's just thinking maybe there's something in this lovely

1001
00:47:22.440 --> 00:47:24.119
richness you get at the performances.

1002
00:47:24.119 --> 00:47:26.460
In Marco Polo, and they are.

1003
00:47:26.519 --> 00:47:27.719
They're really great to just listen to it.

1004
00:47:27.780 --> 00:47:29.340
You don't get that so much on.

1005
00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:32.760
Well, it does look like this sort of lavish period piece despite

1006
00:47:32.760 --> 00:47:36.239
the fact that it is, you know, just sets and they're all gray.

1007
00:47:36.360 --> 00:47:40.559
And I, like I said, there is a colour version, but I wasn't going

1008
00:47:40.559 --> 00:47:44.400
to watch it because that seemed to violate the spirit of things.

1009
00:47:44.460 --> 00:47:47.820
But it looks really spectacular.

1010
00:47:47.880 --> 00:47:49.800
It's terribly fun.

1011
00:47:49.860 --> 00:47:52.260
There's a lot of time for the regulars to do things because

1012
00:47:52.260 --> 00:47:53.820
there's not that much plot.

1013
00:47:53.880 --> 00:47:58.500
Um, And so there's sort of lots of interplay between the

1014
00:47:58.500 --> 00:47:59.159
characters.

1015
00:47:59.219 --> 00:48:01.920
The villain is great, the guy who plays Tagan.

1016
00:48:01.980 --> 00:48:02.699
Darren Nesbit.

1017
00:48:02.820 --> 00:48:03.659
He's terrific.

1018
00:48:03.719 --> 00:48:04.260
Oh, good.

1019
00:48:04.320 --> 00:48:05.940
He was the Sean Bean of his generation.

1020
00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:09.119
He crops up in the prisoner and lots of ITV series.

1021
00:48:09.179 --> 00:48:12.179
He's always the bloke who appears to be a friend, but just don't

1022
00:48:12.179 --> 00:48:13.139
because he'll cross you.

1023
00:48:13.199 --> 00:48:14.340
No, he's terrific.

1024
00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:16.860
He doesn't and he's not like a moustache twirling villain

1025
00:48:16.860 --> 00:48:17.280
particularly.

1026
00:48:17.340 --> 00:48:19.139
He's sort of fairly straight down.

1027
00:48:19.260 --> 00:48:23.280
And his motives are purely political and for his own he's his own

1028
00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:24.119
people, his own nation.

1029
00:48:24.179 --> 00:48:26.519
Yeah, he's strapping down and...

1030
00:48:26.639 --> 00:48:29.699
Well, evidently, as you do, like covering with ants.

1031
00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:31.679
Is that No, no, no, I dream that.

1032
00:48:31.739 --> 00:48:32.519
That's the crusade.

1033
00:48:32.579 --> 00:48:33.480
Okay, good, all right.

1034
00:48:34.139 --> 00:48:35.880
It's coming, folks.

1035
00:48:35.940 --> 00:48:38.639
When we do go up to the Crusade, I've got an interesting story

1036
00:48:38.639 --> 00:48:40.619
about that scene, but we'll leave that for them.

1037
00:48:40.679 --> 00:48:40.980
Thank you.

1038
00:48:41.039 --> 00:48:44.519
I have actually seen the colour version of Marco Polo.

1039
00:48:44.579 --> 00:48:46.800
The reconstruction, everyone.

1040
00:48:46.860 --> 00:48:49.019
I do not, I do not, I do not have it.

1041
00:48:49.079 --> 00:48:50.219
Please don't check me.

1042
00:48:50.460 --> 00:48:53.820
No, the I've seen the colour reconstruction.

1043
00:48:53.820 --> 00:48:55.380
And it is...

1044
00:48:55.380 --> 00:49:00.239
As you say, those sets, the costumes, they're just sumptuous.

1045
00:49:00.300 --> 00:49:01.739
They are.

1046
00:49:01.739 --> 00:49:04.559
It's begging to be a musical, isn't it?

1047
00:49:04.619 --> 00:49:07.079
And yet, thankfully, it never quite means.

1048
00:49:07.139 --> 00:49:09.659
Although, although... it looks like the king and Ar.

1049
00:49:09.719 --> 00:49:11.219
Although, shall we now...

1050
00:49:11.219 --> 00:49:12.360
Zen...

1051
00:49:12.360 --> 00:49:16.260
Some fantastic dance number. and that's the main reason why...

1052
00:49:16.260 --> 00:49:20.099
A lovely homaged Caroline Ford's moment in her hopefully child.

1053
00:49:20.159 --> 00:49:21.599
Only good, probably.

1054
00:49:23.159 --> 00:49:26.159
I mean, that's the thing that I would really like to see because

1055
00:49:26.159 --> 00:49:29.159
again, you know, you see a still, and then this text crawls along

1056
00:49:29.159 --> 00:49:32.280
the bottom of the screen saying Pingcho does a fabulous dance

1057
00:49:32.280 --> 00:49:35.039
sequence in which, and that's really all you care.

1058
00:49:35.099 --> 00:49:38.519
It's so strange because Doctor Who was meant to have a radio times

1059
00:49:38.519 --> 00:49:41.159
cover for an unearthly child and it got bumped for something

1060
00:49:41.159 --> 00:49:41.519
else.

1061
00:49:41.579 --> 00:49:44.880
They gave them the radio times cover for Marco Polo's head.

1062
00:49:44.940 --> 00:49:47.579
And that's why story is so heavily photographed.

1063
00:49:47.639 --> 00:49:51.119
Except it seems for this one dance sequence, they took 3

1064
00:49:51.119 --> 00:49:56.760
photographs of this 3 minute dance routine all about Assassins and

1065
00:49:56.760 --> 00:49:59.579
what they spoke and where the word comes from kiddies.

1066
00:49:59.639 --> 00:50:03.840
And this is an example of...

1067
00:50:04.199 --> 00:50:06.539
Yeah, Ian at one point says, do you know we still use the word

1068
00:50:06.539 --> 00:50:08.639
hashish today in English, Susan?

1069
00:50:08.699 --> 00:50:11.760
1964 Britain come round, I'll show you.

1070
00:50:11.820 --> 00:50:13.320
They didn't explain.

1071
00:50:13.320 --> 00:50:17.820
Yeah, exactly. is still very much alive and contactable.

1072
00:50:17.880 --> 00:50:22.139
I think it would be onerous of us not to seek her out and ask her

1073
00:50:22.139 --> 00:50:22.860
what her memory is.

1074
00:50:22.920 --> 00:50:23.460
She could do it.

1075
00:50:23.579 --> 00:50:25.380
She would do it for what he created.

1076
00:50:25.440 --> 00:50:28.800
She, I'm sure I'm sure she has cam on her laptop.

1077
00:50:28.860 --> 00:50:30.119
She'd be upset.

1078
00:50:30.179 --> 00:50:32.519
She's a game girl. reenacting.

1079
00:50:32.579 --> 00:50:33.539
Oh, really?

1080
00:50:33.539 --> 00:50:36.059
Nobody mentioned Space 1999. she'll be up for it.

1081
00:50:36.119 --> 00:50:40.260
She married, she married Nigel Havers and Sarah Jane Smith in

1082
00:50:40.260 --> 00:50:41.039
the...

1083
00:50:41.639 --> 00:50:42.840
She was the celibate, yes.

1084
00:50:42.840 --> 00:50:46.860
And she was an old, the magical old woman in the cave of Menligato

1085
00:50:46.860 --> 00:50:51.780
in Wizards versus Aliens in the 2nd series of Wizards versus

1086
00:50:51.780 --> 00:50:52.380
Aliens.

1087
00:50:52.500 --> 00:50:53.880
So and she's fabulous.

1088
00:50:53.940 --> 00:50:55.199
I mean, she is just terrific.

1089
00:50:55.260 --> 00:51:00.360
And she was always my favourite thing in space 1999 and one of the

1090
00:51:00.360 --> 00:51:04.559
heartbreaking things about that show limping towards the end of

1091
00:51:04.559 --> 00:51:07.619
the 2nd season is that she disappears from it, like everyone

1092
00:51:07.619 --> 00:51:08.039
else.

1093
00:51:08.159 --> 00:51:11.400
Well, you may not know this, but this is a nice little coder to

1094
00:51:11.400 --> 00:51:11.639
that.

1095
00:51:11.699 --> 00:51:15.960
About 10 years ago, this huge space 1999 convention was on.

1096
00:51:16.019 --> 00:51:18.119
I think it was the 30th anniversary or something.

1097
00:51:18.119 --> 00:51:23.639
And they got her in costume against a flat recording a message

1098
00:51:23.639 --> 00:51:24.960
saying, we found a planet.

1099
00:51:25.019 --> 00:51:26.340
We're about to go settle on it.

1100
00:51:26.400 --> 00:51:28.980
This is the last transmission from Moonbase Alpha.

1101
00:51:29.039 --> 00:51:32.099
And she says stuff about people who, like she explains how people

1102
00:51:32.099 --> 00:51:32.519
have died.

1103
00:51:32.579 --> 00:51:35.159
Yeah, yeah, you know, such and such as died and da, da, da.

1104
00:51:35.219 --> 00:51:39.300
And I could be wrong, but I think they did that for the cast

1105
00:51:39.300 --> 00:51:40.440
members who had passed on.

1106
00:51:40.500 --> 00:51:41.699
Oh, lovely.

1107
00:51:41.760 --> 00:51:42.300
We'll find it.

1108
00:51:42.420 --> 00:51:43.619
We'll find a clip if we can.

1109
00:51:43.679 --> 00:51:46.800
It was also something about how it was the, anyway, we're getting

1110
00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:50.579
far away from things, but the planet meta, that they detect the

1111
00:51:50.579 --> 00:51:51.659
metal planet.

1112
00:51:51.719 --> 00:51:52.739
Get it, get it.

1113
00:51:52.800 --> 00:51:55.139
They detect the signal from it in the 1st episode.

1114
00:51:55.260 --> 00:51:56.820
They do, and I think that's where they end up setting it.

1115
00:51:56.880 --> 00:51:57.480
Yeah, yeah.

1116
00:51:57.780 --> 00:51:59.280
Hurrah.

1117
00:51:59.340 --> 00:52:00.420
Not many people know that.

1118
00:52:01.380 --> 00:52:05.039
To finish talking about Marco Polo, I just want to go back to

1119
00:52:05.039 --> 00:52:06.480
something I said about the edge of destruction.

1120
00:52:06.539 --> 00:52:10.500
At the end, the doctor says to Barbara as a way of sort of saying

1121
00:52:10.500 --> 00:52:13.800
as a way of saying, sorry, he says, as we learn about each other

1122
00:52:13.800 --> 00:52:15.960
so we learn about ourselves, you teach me something, I'll teach

1123
00:52:15.960 --> 00:52:16.440
you something.

1124
00:52:16.559 --> 00:52:20.760
And that is really what happens over the course of Marco Polo.

1125
00:52:20.820 --> 00:52:24.119
You know, Barbara's tirade at the doctor in Edge of Destruction

1126
00:52:24.179 --> 00:52:29.159
makes him take Ian and Barbara seriously.

1127
00:52:29.219 --> 00:52:31.800
And then over the course of Marco Polo, you see them working

1128
00:52:31.800 --> 00:52:35.219
together and each of them sort of has a function like Susan keeps

1129
00:52:35.219 --> 00:52:37.920
them in a far better position than they would be because she has

1130
00:52:37.920 --> 00:52:41.460
her friendship with Pincho and Pincho is able to talk to Marco.

1131
00:52:41.940 --> 00:52:46.019
Ian and Marco developer a relationship and a friendship.

1132
00:52:46.079 --> 00:52:50.579
The doctor and Ian figure out what Tagana's up to and realise, look

1133
00:52:50.579 --> 00:52:52.980
Marco won't believe us, but we'll do our best to protect him.

1134
00:52:53.039 --> 00:52:59.820
And Barbara also sort of helps Marco to understand, you know, we're

1135
00:52:59.820 --> 00:53:02.340
not spirits, but at the same time, yes, you're right.

1136
00:53:02.400 --> 00:53:03.480
We're not of your world.

1137
00:53:03.539 --> 00:53:05.880
And the interesting thing about Barbara, there is.

1138
00:53:05.940 --> 00:53:08.039
She never talks down to Marco.

1139
00:53:08.099 --> 00:53:08.760
Never.

1140
00:53:08.760 --> 00:53:12.059
Because, of course, of course, the doctor does because he nicks

1141
00:53:12.059 --> 00:53:13.139
the doctor's TARDIS.

1142
00:53:13.199 --> 00:53:17.400
But, and this would become a habit of Barbara's character.

1143
00:53:17.460 --> 00:53:22.139
A bit a bit like Emma Peel would be later because Emma Peel didn't

1144
00:53:22.139 --> 00:53:22.980
didn't exist yet.

1145
00:53:23.039 --> 00:53:24.719
You know, she meets all...

1146
00:53:24.719 --> 00:53:26.039
That Gale was an anthropologist.

1147
00:53:26.099 --> 00:53:27.719
Yeah, Kathy, that's true.

1148
00:53:27.780 --> 00:53:31.500
Um, Kathy Goer was Steve's companion in the Avengers, which you

1149
00:53:31.500 --> 00:53:32.099
just know.

1150
00:53:32.159 --> 00:53:32.820
Yes, indeed.

1151
00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:33.780
After this.

1152
00:53:33.840 --> 00:53:34.679
But that's the thing.

1153
00:53:34.739 --> 00:53:40.380
Barbara, Barbara accepts the people they meet for the intelligence

1154
00:53:40.380 --> 00:53:41.820
of their own ears.

1155
00:53:41.880 --> 00:53:45.719
Barbara is our informed curiosity active within the narrative.

1156
00:53:45.780 --> 00:53:48.659
Barbara is not just our history teacher if we kids at school.

1157
00:53:48.719 --> 00:53:56.280
She's our, she's our humanist, creative, sensical self, engaging

1158
00:53:56.280 --> 00:53:59.760
in the narrative, in a, actually in a fabulous piece of

1159
00:53:59.760 --> 00:54:00.360
backcombing.

1160
00:54:00.659 --> 00:54:04.980
Since we have a little metaphor, the hair things are going on on

1161
00:54:04.980 --> 00:54:05.159
this.

1162
00:54:05.219 --> 00:54:07.019
Yeah, yeah, Babs's hair just gets even better.

1163
00:54:07.079 --> 00:54:13.380
In an alternate universe, I suspect in, um, edge of destruction or

1164
00:54:13.380 --> 00:54:15.539
wherever with the scissors, she just says, give me a number one

1165
00:54:15.539 --> 00:54:16.679
all over, Susan.

1166
00:54:16.739 --> 00:54:19.800
And the show, the show doesn't, doesn't make it tonight.

1167
00:54:19.860 --> 00:54:23.820
This is, yeah, the show never makes it beyond episodes. 13 yeah.

1168
00:54:24.780 --> 00:54:30.179
Ah, well, that sound means that it's time for us to end part one

1169
00:54:30.179 --> 00:54:34.019
of season one, and we've actually just opened the wine.

1170
00:54:34.559 --> 00:54:35.760
Chin chin, cheers.

1171
00:54:35.820 --> 00:54:36.360
Cheers.

1172
00:54:36.420 --> 00:54:37.260
Cheers.

1173
00:54:37.320 --> 00:54:40.320
We actually got it scraping the condensation off the walls.

1174
00:54:40.380 --> 00:54:43.619
Well, Doctor Who is educational.

1175
00:54:43.679 --> 00:54:48.900
So, um, but next week we're going to be... didn't work.

1176
00:54:49.860 --> 00:54:54.239
You stole my gag and then...

1177
00:54:54.300 --> 00:54:57.179
I think the whole thing could start again, actually.

1178
00:54:57.239 --> 00:55:00.300
And of course, for those of you who don't know, Richard there was

1179
00:55:00.300 --> 00:55:01.920
referring to Marco Polo.

1180
00:55:01.980 --> 00:55:05.820
So if you haven't experienced it, listen to it or watch the recon

1181
00:55:05.820 --> 00:55:07.920
which, of course, we're not encouraging you to get online.

1182
00:55:07.980 --> 00:55:10.440
Well, I think we linked to it in the show notes.

1183
00:55:10.500 --> 00:55:11.579
Oh, yeah, yeah, it's on YouTube.

1184
00:55:11.639 --> 00:55:13.739
I was just saying that for anyone from the BBC who were

1185
00:55:13.739 --> 00:55:14.099
listening.

1186
00:55:14.159 --> 00:55:18.659
Okay, so next week, next week, your time, but in about 5 minutes

1187
00:55:18.659 --> 00:55:21.719
our time, we're going to be talking about the 2nd half of William

1188
00:55:21.719 --> 00:55:24.840
Hartwell's 1st series, working our way through the Keys of

1189
00:55:24.840 --> 00:55:28.019
Mariners, the Aztecs, the Sensorites.

1190
00:55:28.139 --> 00:55:29.219
Right.

1191
00:55:29.280 --> 00:55:31.619
And the reign of terror.

1192
00:55:31.739 --> 00:55:37.380
So, from Brendan, it's good night or good morning, whatever you

1193
00:55:37.380 --> 00:55:39.659
are, whatever you're doing, do it safely and do it well.

1194
00:55:39.840 --> 00:55:42.179
Yes, and it's good night from me.

1195
00:55:42.239 --> 00:55:44.039
And it's good night for me too.

1196
00:55:50.099 --> 00:55:52.739
You have been listening to flight your entirety with Nathan

1197
00:55:52.739 --> 00:55:54.659
Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

1198
00:55:54.719 --> 00:55:59.400
Episode one, horribly blonde, was recorded on Sunday, 1st of June

1199
00:55:59.400 --> 00:56:01.079
2014, in city, Australia.

1200
00:56:01.500 --> 00:56:04.860
The next episode will be released on Sunday, June 15.

1201
00:56:05.219 --> 00:56:08.940
One day we will know all the mysteries of disguise, and then we

1202
00:56:08.940 --> 00:56:10.079
will end our blatherings.

1203
00:56:16.139 --> 00:56:20.099
So yes, that's my theory, the telepathic circuits are set to RP.

1204
00:56:23.159 --> 00:56:26.099
Should really turn my television, your telephone off.

1205
00:56:26.159 --> 00:56:27.119
That's right.

1206
00:56:27.179 --> 00:56:29.699
What a professional podcast.

1207
00:56:29.820 --> 00:56:31.739
Telephone off.

1208
00:56:31.739 --> 00:56:33.659
Before recording.

1209
00:56:33.659 --> 00:56:35.219
That can be our post-credits moment.

1210
00:56:35.280 --> 00:56:36.960
That will be.

1211
00:56:37.019 --> 00:56:40.139
Okay, so anything else to say on unearthly child or shall we move

1212
00:56:40.139 --> 00:56:40.320
on?