Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety
the only Doctor Who podcast who has never misjudged anyone quite
so badly as we did Paula Moore.
I'm Brendan.
I'm Nathan I'm Todd.
And we're embarking on Colin Baker's 1st full season of the doctor
with the nostalgia fest that is Attack of the Cybermen.
This is a doctor story that some people love, for all its
continuity references, and equally, some people hate it, for all
of its continuity references.
Todd, what do you think?
I love it.
Thank you.
Yes, I agree.
I mean, we have.
Look, you know, I was 12 or 13 at the time, and, you know, it's
referencing all these things, like the 10th planet, the tomb of
the cybermen, even, you know, the Lytton staff, the terrible Zode
in, which is one of my all-time favourite jokes, which I've
mentioned before.
And I am foreman, you know, the heart is changing.
I really adore part one of this 2 part story, like nothing else.
The continuity references are really funny because there are
different kind of continuity from what we're able to experience
now because we've actually had the opportunity to see all of those
stories.
And those of us on this flight have actually even seen the stories
that don't exist.
So we know what's being referred to.
And I think even things like Wheeling Space are sort of hinted
at.
But what was available back in the 1980s was essentially the
Doctor Who Monster book.
And so no one had really seen Tomb of the Cyberman, it hadn't been
rediscovered by then, not for another 7 years after this.
It was nearly impossible to see the 10th planet.
And so all of those things, it gets horribly wrong, doesn't it?
I mean, all of the continuity stuff is kind of incorrect.
Well, visually, the continuity is wrong, but the references made
in the script are correct.
You know, the doctor mentions that Mondas will approach Earth in a
year's time, which that in itself is an interesting idea.
They're not basing it at the same time as that is happening.
It's a preventative plot by the side, man.
What it reminded me of, and I think I watched this at around the
same time when I was a child. is return to Oz.
The sequel to the Wizard of Oz made 50 years afterwards.
So visually, it's incredibly different.
Scarecrow appears in one scene and is an animatronic rather than
Ray Bulger, of course.
But at the same time, I think as a child you kind of accept those
visual inconsistencies, perhaps now as an adult, we might look at
it and say, that's a bit off.
This seems like a good time to talk about authorship of this
story.
I mentioned Paula Moore in my introduction, who this story is
credited to.
And even in Doctor Who, the Complete History, the new part work
from Doctor Who magazine, our sponsors at Doctor Who magazine, they
don't sponsor.
But even in that book, there's pretty much a paragraph saying, we
still don't quite know who wrote this.
So the current working idea is that Eric Saywood came up with the
story, wrote the script with an ex-girlfriend of his Paula Wolsey
who was trying to break in as a television writer.
Put it under the name Paulamore with continuity input from Ian
Levine.
But Ian Levine has also said that he and Eric wrote the script
together to the point that they sort of hothoused it over a
weekend and about 18 hours in, Ian's like, look, I don't think
this story is working.
I want to go home to which they would replied, if you want to
write a script for the show, this is your only chance.
I'll make you a star kind of thing.
Ian has been on recorder saying, you know, yes, I suggested the
cyber tombs, but I said build them in exactly the same way.
And instead they build these sort of frig rooms, are they?
these big Tesco refrigerators kind of thing.
Even then, I don't mind that design.
But yeah, it's a strange decision to steep it in so much
continuity, but then update the design.
Yeah.
I mean, the cybermen of the 1980s are absolutely nothing at all
like the cybermen in the 10th planet.
And I'm not sure what the references to the 10th planet add to the
story apart from some really bad word peril.
And I guess the worst example of that is when in episode one, the
doctor and Perry are in the control room looking at that
lamentable special effect that's supposed to represent Halle's
comet on the screen and Perry complaining that she's very scared
but it's actually hard to tell why.
It's not something, I think, that sort of lands.
And there is just something a little bit tiresome and a little bit
routine about, you know, the cybermen are somehow going back in
time and preventing, you know, Mondas from exploding or whatever
where none of that stuff is really present to anyone in the
audience except the Doctor Who Monster book reading contingent.
It's funny, I have a completely different take on this from
everybody else.
I don't have a problem with the redesign of the tombs.
I just accept that it's a different part of the tomb system.
Eric's rewriting history by introducing the crayons who've come up
with the refrigeration on Tellos.
And, you know, I don't think that necessarily contradicts anything
that's ever been said.
It's just never been said.
And the fact that it's like 15 years or 16 years after, I would
never expect them to do the tombs exactly the way that they were
since this story doesn't exist at this point in the archives.
Obviously now we're used to CGI and all continuity references in
shows and going back.
So you would think that if it was done now that they would do it
in the style of.
And I think it's, for me, it's just not a problem, right?
Having the redesign there.
They try to do 2 levels, you know, it's their own take on it.
For me, the whole thing is the fact that this is completely
consistent with the production team of Eric Sabre and John Nathan
Turner over the last 3 years.
In that, the 1st story of every season is their attempt to rewrite
Doctor Who history in some way.
I hadn't noticed that, but you're right.
And so here, you know, they're going back to, as I said, Tim and
Simon 10th Planet, things that people at this point don't really
know, but are lauded as fantastic, and they're putting their own
spin on it through the crayons and that sort of thing.
Last year, Eric got Johnny Byrne to do, again, the Silurians and
the sea devils with, you know, the Merkers, the new element there
and different continuity going back to the Silurians and the sea
devil stories that people love, but not necessarily it's seen, year
before that.
They've done their take on Omega, which is a completely different
take.
You know, he's got a TARDIS.
They've introduced the Arc of Infinity so we can get from anti
matter to matter.
So, referencing back to the 3 doctors.
And even the year before that with the master.
It's now the master of literal disguise as opposed to
figuratively.
This is completely consistent, you know?
They're pandering more and more to the Doctor Who audience and
it's their take on things and they're reworking.
And, you know, they're even a year ahead.
They're planning to go back even further to the mythical, magical
celestial toy maker and rewrite that.
So, um, And a lot of the exposition is actually in part 2 of this
45 minute story when they're aboard the TARDIS, where there's an
info dump from hell. which I really love, right?
But I completely understand if casual viewers are going, what the
hell is this, you know, and why is this?
I guess the biggest thing is the cyber controller.
We now know that the cyber controller appears to be completely
destroyed.
But, you know, here he's merely damaged, according to the cyber
leader.
I don't and I don't really have a problem with that.
I mean, I think quite often, you know, even Moffatt in all of the
stuff that he does now will say people have died, but it's like
that's not really the whole story.
Yeah.
And the cybermen, we now see can download from one to another.
So I'm quite happy with the fact that he was merely damaged could
mean that, you know, in the moment of death, his whole
consciousness is downloaded to a new cyber controller, and we
don't have 5 minutes of exposition of how that happened.
I think the big problem with the cyber controller is not the
explanation for how he got here, but how truly, truly terrible he
is.
And I think Russell T. Davis has mentioned that he has a really
strong memory of the cyber control.
And remember the cyber controller from Tomb of the Cybermen, didn't
have a chest unit, so he was really sleek and slim.
He was super tall and he had that huge dome on his head that was
transparent and seemed to be glowing.
It's a little bit hard to tell in black and white.
And I think Russell imagined that the brain was sort of visible
through it.
There are certainly veins or something.
And then Russell used that design both in rise of the cyberman, or
age of steel, rather, and in the next doctor, where you can see
the brain visible in the cyberman.
So it was a really striking memorable design.
And I really like that cyber controller.
And that was played by Michael Kilgareth, who would go on to play
the K1 robot in robot, and who has been cast as the
cybercontroller here 148 years later.
And he's eaten a lot of pies. since the shooting of Tomb of the
Sidemen and he's really fat.
And he's not the only fat cyberman.
He's offsider is also got a pretty hefty backside on him as well.
And he didn't do the voice.
Remember, back then, the voices in Tomb of the Sidemen, the voices
were wonderful.
They were almost completely incomprehensible.
Yeah, wonderful. just terrific.
But here it's the sort of crappy sub Darth Vader voices that David
Banks stars.
So the cybercontroller just looks terrible.
Like, he just looks stupid.
He's got a big cone head for no readily apparent reason with sort
of rivets on it.
He weighs 130 kilograms in the shade.
He waves his arms around and does a sort of terrible, terrible
Michael Kilgareth voice.
And his offside are like so many cybermen offsiders have these
sort of stupid posh voices as well.
So all of those scenes where he's talking in the control room are
just terrifically bad.
It is a fat controller.
I, I, I doesn't love it.
I just love it.
I love it.
The fact that it's the fat controller.
I love the fact that they redesign it with the dome head.
I just sit there just chuckling away at the crapness of the
cyberman and their entire plan and the fact that they will be
defeated.
So I just enjoy it.
I mean, he wasn't originally going to be cast.
They offered the part to David Banks and he turned it down.
So then of course they went to him.
Let's go back to episode one.
So this season is the 1st season that's actually Doctor Who's in
45 minute episodes.
The decision that was made in light of the previous season
Resurrection of the Daleks.
Its episodes were edited together so that it went out in 2 parts
rather than 4 and the then control of the BBC said, oh, look at
these wonderful ratings, you know, which weren't really that much
better than the rest of the season.
And, you know, yes, let's go to 45 minutes for this coming
season.
It was already in the offing that they were thinking of doing that
because they were having to prepare the scripts and that just kind
of solidified it.
So it was like, it was sort of 75% decided and they did a test and
it's like, hey, that works really well.
And I think Attack of the Sidemen is one of the stories where it
works better in this story than other stories of this season.
Because the temptation for them is going to be the structure of
the 1st episode of any Doctor Who story in the 80s, at any rate, is
the 1st 10 minutes are you setting up the world, and then we come
to the TARDIS, and the TARDIS arrives at around the 15 minute mark
just in time for them to get into trouble in the 1st cliffhanger.
Now, this doesn't happen in Attack of the Sidemen, they do arrive
in London within the 1st 15 minutes of the 45 minutes, but it'll
become a problem further on in the season where they still kind of
take the idea that the Tartar shouldn't arrive until 3 quarters of
the way through a 45 minute episode, and that will become a
problem.
In terms of these 45 minute episodes, of course, they became 25
minute episodes in Australia.
They were just sort of chopped in half without much thought as to
where the cliffhanger went.
Now, the new episode one cliffhanger of this one actually isn't
too bad.
It's the doctor and Perry down in the sewers, and you see one of
the black scout cybermen come up behind them and the titles kick
in.
So that works as a cliffhanger.
We'll get some pretty terrible cliffhangers inventions on Baros.
I can't remember what the episode 3 cliffhanger to this one is.
I think it might be lit in getting caught or something.
No, I think it's one of the cryons saying for Mondas to survive.
The earth must be destroyed.
I think that's the end of episode three.
Yeah, you're right, actually.
And that's a good cliffhanger.
So this works as a four-parter and as a two-parter.
Can I just say?
I love all these fake cliffhangers that we got here in Australia.
I think we should make a point of mentioning them.
I've got a particular favourite in the 2 doctors. my favourites in
the 2 doctors.
Is that... no, no.
We're not going to mention it.
We're going to wait.
Sorry.
I will say when we get to it next week, the ones in vengeance on
Varos for the new episodes, one and 3 are particularly hilariously
dire, but we'll get to those.
One of the one of the things about, um, obviously listeners for
overseas sales, everything was restructured for 25 minutes, um, or
22.5 minutes.
But it's literally who's ever there is taking no notice of what
scenes are before or after and, you know, maybe we'll wait 30
seconds because there's a better cliffhanger. at that mark, boom
and, you know, sometimes there's better cliffhangers around there
like, through coincidence or whatever.
Well, I actually wondered whether there had been some plans to do
this in 4 parts at some point. or when it was devised, it might be
like that because at the halfway point.
That is where Lytton meets the cybermen.
We get the proper big episode one, you know, monster reveal
cliffhanger.
So it did seem to be there.
I have to disagree.
I don't think the 45 minute structure works in this story at all
and for precisely the reasons that Brendan identifies where they
tend to make part one of this two-part story like a 25 minute part
one.
And so 17, 18 minutes in.
The doctor and Perry, even though they've arrived in London, all
they've done is walk up and down some laneways and talk to one
another and they haven't really interacted with anyone or joined
the story at any point.
See I'm going to disagree with you on that.
I actually think this is one of the best 45 minute part ones.
They have a bit of a talk in the TARDIS, you know, their usual
tete a tete, where it's not too bad in terms of having an argument
I think it's worse than the next story.
And then they're out exploring London, the doctors trying to find
this alien, you know, although they haven't met the characters
they are involved with the plot because they're trying to get to
the plot, it is so well done.
And something Eric Zay would have said about his concept for this
script was he felt that twin dilemma wasn't a good start for the
character and it wasn't a good start for the relationship.
So I think we kind of need the 15 minutes of just the 2 of them
together to reestablish this relationship in a better way, and
there is still tension between them, but there is a lot more
warmth.
They're making jokes with each other.
And there's a beautiful moment halfway through the episode where
they kind of give up the search and the doctor can't think of what
to do.
And Perry's the one who raises the point of, well, even if he's
not there, he'll need to know if people turn up and the doctor
turns to her and tells her, you're absolutely brilliant.
And it mitigates some of the tension we've had already.
But also there's some really cute moments like where she's having
a go about his memory.
And he does the very doctor-ish thing of ignoring her concern, but
going, oh, I called you Zoden, did I?
No, I think the funny thing there is that she describes his memory
as seeming like it had gone through a mincer and she elaborates on
that a little bit and he says, that's a terrible simile.
I actually think I went into this expecting to dislike Colin much
much more than I did.
And all of the moments of conflict and when he's rude to her and
unlikeable, which is a deliberate choice that the production team
is making, all of those moments are terrible, they're awful.
And I really, really wish that they hadn't gone that way.
It was a bad, bad idea.
When he's called upon to do warmth, he does it really well.
And when he's called upon to be silly.
And overconfident about his abilities, but wrong.
So when he's repairing the TARDIS at the beginning and he sort of
stuffs it up and it goes wrong, but he's super confident that it's
going to be okay.
Whenever he does that, he's really, really funny and really quite
sweet.
And there's even one moment, you know, people criticise this
because the doctor's violent.
And there is that scene in episode one with the policeman where
the doctor leaps down that hole and then comes back up with the
policeman's helmet and Perry's already overcome the other
policeman and she asks the doctor, where's the policeman?
And he says, oh, I think he's having a little lie down somewhere.
I just think that's really terrific and he's really quite fun.
I think there's nothing wrong with that We've seen as early as
heart and all doctor has no objection to a bit of fisticuffs.
And I think Eric Saywood makes the very clever decision.
And look, let's just face it, Saywood wrote this.
Yeah, yeah.
I think Eric Saywood makes a very clever decision that the
doctor's fistfight with the policeman is done off camera.
I agree.
I think with Colin Baker's doctor.
I've mentioned this before with him because he is such a
physically imposing presence.
By that, I mean he's over 6 foot tall.
He is well built.
If you ran into the 6th doctor in an alleyway and he was annoyed
with you and holding a broken bottle, you would fear for your life
kind of thing.
If you ran into Hartnell in a dark alley and he was holding a
broken bottle, it'd just be an average Saturday night for him.
But the less we can show of the 6 doctor being physically imitably
violent, the better.
Flashing forward to the end of the story where news flash, he goes
berserk with a cyber gun.
I also don't have a problem with that.
No, that's horrible.
I don't have a problem with it. horrible, but it is apt in that
situation.
And it's not like he jumps out of the TARTIS and grabs the 1st gun
he can find.
It's a matter of he comes under attack and grabs a gun to defend
himself.
But I just don't think the scriptwriter should be putting him in
that position.
And like that is a particularly horrible one where, you know, he
shoots the cyber controller with a big gun at point blank range
you know, things come out of the cyber controller's head.
And that has been the culmination of, you know, I think the story
degenerates in episode 2 and just becomes the usual, say, with
people shooting one another with guns thing that we've had over
and over again.
And it's boring and I really dislike it.
In episode one, there is that scene where Perry has a gun.
I think it's unfortunate that the companion chooses to carry a gun
but whatever.
But again, I really like Colin's comic timing in the scene where
he tells Perry to shoot the policeman, shooting Perry, and it's
really offhanded. you know, oh, I'm sick of their shooting, you
know, and we don't believe that for a second.
We know he's joking and Collins comic timing is wonderful.
Unfortunately, there is a line cut from the script when they're
going down the sewers and periung clips, the silencer and
whatever.
Perry is meant to say, I don't actually know how to use this, but
no one else knows that, so it could come in handy.
It kind of explains why when the doctor says shoot him, you know
she's both nervous that she's been asked to shoot someone, but
it's also, I've told you, I don't know how to use this thing.
The weird thing was, there was also a bit in the script originally
where Perry comments that the guns the policemen have are illegal
in the states, and the doctor responds something along the lines
of, Oh, yes, well, you can always trust British police ingenuity.
And I think they may have cut it because of that 2nd line as being
critical at the police.
But yeah, the concept that there might be a gun that's illegal in
America.
It's unimaginable.
I know.
So back to episode one again.
I'm going to disagree with Nathan on a few things that he's now
said. about the doctor and Perry relationship and being horrible
to Perry.
I don't actually see him being particularly horrible to pairing at
all.
Um, I just think it's the nature of their relationship.
And I actually think, if Eric Saywood instructed all of his script
writers throughout the season to write all the light stuff and the
comic stuff for Colin and and the warmth, plus some of the
tension.
People wouldn't have as much problem with the rest of the season.
I think it's quite ironic that in the 2 stories that he writes.
He actually writes better than Robert Holmes, for example, or even
Philip Martin coming up in terms of the Dr. Perry, having big
fights and that sort of thing, or even Pip and Jane Baker, where I
think is actually probably the worst relationship of the entire
season.
But we'll talk about that when we get to it.
I just think Collins' performance throughout this entire story.
He's just got, you know, when a new doctor comes in, I just love
the energy.
Like, you may recall listeners that I really love John in his 1st
season, and I actually picked his performance in that over
everybody else, his season 11.
I love Tom in his 1st season.
Colin's performance in this, and I was speaking to Richard about
this.
We just adored it.
And even Richard said to me, this, he thinks this is possibly
Collins' best performance as the doctor.
No, I'm not going to necessarily say that, but I just think
throughout all of this story, the warmth, the bits of silliness
that you've mentioned, and even when he gets irritable, I just
think he's great.
I think that there's a weakness that I identified, I think last
week in the in the Pete retrospective, which is that Saywood can't
write convincing dialogue, and his dialogue is stilted and
artificial.
And because Colin is doing a kind of theatrical thing, particularly
when he's being sort of pompous doctor, it really, really shows up
the kind of flaws in the dialogue.
And so when Collins being silly or warm or charming, I think is
terrific.
When he's being irritable or blustering or delivering speeches, I
think he's terrible.
And I think one of the reasons why big finish, he fares so well in
big finish, is that the writing is better.
And so when he gets to bluster, and be pompous, he's usually
delivering more realistic dialogue.
And so he just sounds less terrible.
But I think there is a kind of unfortunate moment where the
writers are giving him things to do that they're not good at
writing that are shown up by the kind of theatricality of Collins
performance in those moments.
And so I find a lot to like a lot more than I expected about
Colin's performance, but I still can't get over moments where I
don't think he's very good.
And the other thing that I don't think he's very good at is
conveying sort of pain or fear because it always just ends up with
him opening his mouth and kind of poking his big fat tongue out
you know, and I'm never convinced by that either.
So, and the coat.
The coat.
The only thing worse than the code of the moments where he takes
the coat off.
I just can't get over it.
So I think that's a problem.
And I think that there are structural problems with this story as
well.
Well, I think it takes a 90 degree turn halfway through the
story.
I think the 1st the 1st episode is a complete runaround and we get
introduced to Lytton and his team, and we also get introduced to
Stratton and Bates, and they're, um, is it Stratton and Bates?
It's Stratton.
I think it's Bates and Stratton, actually.
I think they're hilarious.
I love all their stuff on the sober planet.
I just crack up at all the theatrics of trying to escape.
I hate them so much.
And one of them just spends the entire time screaming at the other
one in this sort of very, very like tiresome way.
And the problem with it is their plot doesn't go anywhere.
And there is a there's this whole plot line through it that could
just be neatly excised from the entire episode and make absolutely
no difference to the story at all.
You've got, you know, Brian Glover meets up with them.
They're going to steal a spaceship, presumably it's the spaceship
that the sidemen intend to use to go back in time.
Is that right?
Yes.
But it just, it doesn't go anywhere.
Yeah, the reason that they don't really go anywhere is because the
scripts were running under.
They're padding.
And I am not saying that in terms of their performance or in terms
of the quality of their dialogue, they are padding characters
who've been added in because the script was running under.
As it is, in a way, I quite like seeing them because we have been
told that the cybermen have humanoids working for them, and it
introduces a new idea when we realise they're partially cyber
converted and they're rejects from the cyber conversion process.
So it's like, if your brain cannot be cyber converted, they will
still use your body under slave labour.
They'll chop your arms and legs off.
Saturday tea time amputations.
Well, isn't it any?
No, I know, but well, we see that he has a sort of unconvincing
sort of metal hand.
Is it any more horrible than what happened to Toberman?
And that was Saturday tea time.
Oh, yeah, and that was terrible as well.
It is reintroducing them as a force of horror.
And I will agree that the off discussed, lit and hand crushing
scene.
It goes too far there.
And that could have been done so much more effectively because
Maurice Cobone, as Lytton has a brilliant screen when he's having
his hands crushed.
I think you could have just cut away to the cyber controller and
had the scream. and have it left up to your imagination what is
happening to him.
Because there's a puddle of blood on the floor after it happens.
I mean, it is absolutely appalling.
He's got bags of fake blood in his hands, which he just squeezes
and they burst and what have you.
The thing is, though, everyone on set thought it was a step too
far.
Like Michael Kilgareff objected, Colin Baker objected.
Morris Colburn objected, but, you know, they got on with it
because it's what was in the script.
And it does present the cybermen as horrible and uncompromising.
But I actually think that Stratton and Bates do that really
effectively, having to Littton's 2 policeman in the cyber
conversion cubicle.
Is that who they are?
Yeah, yeah.
They're in there in episode one.
That's really effective.
Griffiths, who is played by Brian Glover, the bald guy, who's
hilarious.
He's wonderful.
Getting a bit rough.
Is it?
I mean, that is one of the lines.
I like the moment where the 1st guy who gets killed by the sidemen
accuses Brian Glover's character of being allergic to nylon and he
goes, no, I'm not.
And, you know, there are a few really silly lines.
And Brian Glover is kind of wasted on this story, but he is really
funny. he's terrific.
He gets some really funny lines.
Yeah, I particularly like, you said you were from Fulham.
Yes, yeah.
Instead of Rifton 5 or something.
That's some pain who's the member of the gang who gets killed in
the sewers by the side men.
The other member of the gang, of course, Mr. Russell, the
undercover policeman, is Terry Malloy.
And I love his death. when he gets hit on the neck and then has to
do that staggering thing into position.
I just burst out.
I just love it Do you know why he had to stagger into position?
Oh, was it something to do with the fact that's where they needed
it for the next episode so they wouldn't have to pay him anything
for the next episode?
They could drag the body off.
That was part of it.
The other part was where he falls.
He covers the chord leading to the console.
And not just that as he stumbles and the camera follows him, he is
always covering that chord.
So they had to take that shot a few times.
The reason we have Terry Malloy here as Russell, who played Davros
in Resurrection of the Daleks, director Matthew Robinson, who
directed that story as well, was so impressed with his
performance.
He said to Terry, the next time I have something on.
I'm going to put you in there in a role where we can see your face
because your performance is so magnificent but it's even better
with your face.
So he gave him this role here.
Of course, Maurice Colburn is back and in a way that won't quite
work at the end of the season.
The production of this story is structured so that most of episode
one happens on earth and most of episode 2 happens on Telos.
And they structured the studio sessions in the same way.
So that way Terry Malloy was only required for the 1st studio
session, and the crayons, who had really complex makeup, were only
required in the 2nd studio session.
It's a good example of sort of synergy for once between the script
department and the production department to say we're going to
write a script that lends itself to being easier to shoot.
They also doubled the location record, they managed to double the
location recording time because starting with this season, Doctor
Who started getting money from BBC Enterprises.
Now BBC worldwide, I think, or is it the other way around?
Because of all the international sales.
John Nathan Turner and Jonathan Powell successfully lobbied and
said, well, hold on.
BBC worldwide sales are mostly Doctor Who, shouldn't we see some
of that money?
So they were able to increase the location filming budget for
this.
Okay, back to Stratton and Bates.
As I said, I really like them.
I know that the subplot doesn't connect with anybody else's.
I would have liked Perry and the doctor to have met them somehow
if she got out onto the surface, but it is something that I don't
think we've seen very much of before where a lot of where a
subplot doesn't connect with anybody else.
I think that maybe in resurrection of the Daleks, where we don't
get to meet styles and their suicide mission to destroy the thing
but at least that does actually have some impact on the plot
whereas, of course, Stratton and Bates and Brian Glover's
character arrive at the time machine thing and the desk get killed
and the whole thing goes nowhere.
That's true.
The fact is they're trying, they're trying to get up there.
We think that they're going to get there, but in all respects, as
someone actually know what's going on, and then it's, you know
they are killed at that point, which is utterly tragic, and it
does seem to go nowhere.
But I don't have a problem with it.
I would have thought that the thing to do would have given them
something a little bit more interesting to do when they reach the
time machine, like avert something or do something.
Do you know what I mean?
Have them die heroically.
But the whole thing just seems curiously pointless.
You see, I really like it because it gives you a moment of hope
and then snatches it away.
And Malcolm Clark's music in that bit as they reach the door, it
rises to a hopeful tone.
They open the door, there's cybermen there.
They get gunned down, they fall towards camera.
It is horrible.
But I do find it clever because as a child, I remember being
really shocked by that moment and I thought they were going to get
away.
It's a kind of say word thing though.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, Saywood thinks that just killing characters is somehow
edgy.
And he showed that in resurrection of the Daleks, but I think it's
just kind of lazy and boring.
Yeah, I know you've been saying for quite a while now that Saywood
sort of writes the same story 4 times.
Well, say would rights or commissions, the same story 4 times.
So Earthshock, Warriors of the Deep, Resurrection of the Daleks
and Attack of the Sidemen.
I think Attack of the Sidemen is actually the most effective of
all of them because Stratenham Bates, as you say, have no impact
on the plot, but at least for me, I was sympathising and
interested with their characters, despite the fact that
objectively, I can look back on it and say, oh, you know, there's
no real point there, but subjectively, when I'm watching, I'm
interested in what happens to these people.
Speaking of people in the story, who um, as a child, I didn't
think how much character, but as an adult, I actually listened to
their dialogue, and there's some really witty lines in there, are
the cryons themselves.
Like, hello, I'm the doctor.
Unless you help us, you won't be for very much longer.
I think they're really great.
And I know some people, for instance, have raised the point that
how could this race who require subzero temperatures evolve on a
planet where, where they're out in the open, they die?
Well, we just had a run of 45 degree days in Sydney, dear listener
and so I can tell you.
Planets can get warmer.
Remember the planet Aridius?
And certainly we can infer that perhaps even the cybermen had
something to do with the changing weather on their planet.
You know, people ask, how can we have a race that require
refrigerated cities to live in?
Well, walk into any shopping mall or any public building.
We have refrigerated cities.
We have air conditioning now.
And it's a palpable difference in the middle of summer.
Walking into an air conditioned building and walking outside, not
so much that we will steam to death outside.
But...
Although we might.
Yes, it's like that at the moment, isn't it?
But, you know, it takes that concept to an extreme, which is what
good sci-fi does.
And there is an attempt.
Possibly not visually, but there is an attempt in terms of
dialogue and performance and characterisation to distinguish the
cryon characters from one another.
I can't tell who any of them are except for flash or something
with whom Colin spends about, what, an hour and 20 minutes in a
room talking about the cybermen's plans.
And like, I think that's very boring and she's someone else who
has been injured and has green slime on her, which is a sort of
feature of, say, with stories too.
Whereas the other ones, I can't tell a part.
And there is a moment where we're supposed to care when one of
them gets gunned down by a cyberman and I, her name's rust or fuss
or something, and I don't care.
And I also have to say that I don't know why the cybermen are the
bad guys and they're the good guys.
And I think there's a real problem and it's an endemic, say, word
problem.
We saw in Caves of Andrazani that there are no good guys that
everyone's bad.
And here it's the same thing.
I mean, if the crayons use the same guns as the cybermen, they
shoot cybermen, cybermen are constantly exploding and bits are
coming off them and, you know, they're hiring mercenaries, I guess
they're the oppressed indigenous species, and that's why we're
supposed to side with them, but none of their behaviour or nothing
that they say indicates that they're morally any different from
the cybermen.
Well, the 2 crayons who deal with Perry and Lytton, one of them is
the one who says, well, we're going to have to destroy Earth, if
you don't move the Tartar will kill you as well.
Whereas the other one then says things like, um, well, we may not
have to destroy the TARS, but we would rather the cybermen didn't
use it.
These people are freedom fighters.
And remember, one science freedom fighters is the other side's
terrorist.
So I think not presenting them as these insipid Ewoks who need to
be protected from the evil empire.
But instead presenting them as people with their own motivations
and war has hardened them and taken away their sympathy, but not
entirely, you know, so we do have them being sympathetic and being
slightly sapphic towards Perry, if we can say that.
Doesn't one of them regret not killing her?
Yes, and the other one sort of chastises her for it.
It's not just people saying, as you well know, Zyboth you're on.
Part of the problem is the makeup makes them all look the same and
the voices all sound the same as well.
If there was more physical delineation between them, you'd be able
to pick up the dialogue more easily.
As I said, I've only realised the difference in dialogue and
characterisation as an adult.
I'm on the same page as you, Brendan, with that.
Like I see all of, I see their different characterisations now
more than I did originally.
I like the fact that, you know, they are the indigenous people
that are having to, they've had to fight these sidemen and now
they're at the point where they will do whatever they need to do
to stop them.
As I said, the show does take an only degree turn, like in the
middle of this story where you've got a big sort of action
adventure, I think, in part one and in episode two.
It's more like, well, Perry's with the crayons and the doctors
trapped in that room and you've got cyber control and you've got
Stratton and Bait.
So it's more 2 handers or whatever it happens to be.
So I think it is jarring in the sense that it does take this
turn.
I love all the stuff with the doctor and flash, especially when
she's talking about the time lord's agent is already at work and
the doctors suddenly comes to the realisation and it's going, oh
like getting really angry.
I love that sequence is one of my favourite sequences of Colin
Baker as the doctor.
I just think he plays it so brilliantly.
And I'm just chuckling away and laughing at what he, like he's
irritation and the way he delivers it.
I think it's a weaker episode than the previous.
And you've picked on flaws, which I think are, are out there for
all to see and have been commented on throughout the ages.
I mean, I remember when Dwim, when this came out on DVD, I think
they gave it 3 out of 10 and just shredded it.
I refuse to watch the story.
I bought the video, but I said, I'm not going to go and watch it
based on what they've just done to it because of the memories I
had as a kid and I waited some time before I watched it.
And Eric Saywood himself.
Like, if you actually watch his documentary on Attack and you
watch his documentary on Revelation of the Daleks, he contradicts
himself, he believes that episode one is a great episode, and then
in one of them, he says episode 2 is a shambles, and the other one
he says, it's better than he thought it was.
And I actually agree with that stance.
I just enjoy episode one so much.
Episode 2 There are all elements that I like.
I do think the blood thing goes far too far, and I believe they
cut it down in the final edit, but it's still too much.
I don't have a problem with the doctor shooting all the cybermen
because he is under attack and he is going to die, right?
He is forced to do that.
I think it's a bad choice to put the doctor in that position and
to give him guns.
Ultimately, that's the choice that, say, would keeps making.
And I think, yes, in the long term, it is the wrong choice.
Yeah, but it does lead into, you know, at the end, the doctor does
apologise to the cryons, I'm sorry, and there's empathy there and
I think it's a very powerful moment.
I think it's one of his most powerful moments.
Then in the TARDIS, when he says it didn't go very well.
Again, it's a downbeat ending, but I actually really liked the
fact that he acknowledges the fact that things just fell apart.
You know, there's a scene that's cut, you know, they had another
scene where it was all light and fluffy and that just wouldn't
work.
Yeah, sort of, um, the Tartars console was going to lurch again
and the Apple from earlier was going to fall.
Doctor was going to catch it, take a bite, chuck it to Perry, give
her a smile and a wink like the end of twin dilemma.
And it's like, no, it's much better to see the doctor really
affected by the violence of this story.
Like when he apologises to the cryons.
The crayons response is essentially look, just get off our planet
enough is enough.
Not blaming him, but just this situation is partially because of
you.
Someone, I think, does so well in this story in terms of
performance and in terms of characterisation.
Nicola Bryant is Perry, because in the 1st episode when the doctor
is getting short with her, she's snapping back, like when he's
patronising her about the Halley's comet thing and she's worried
about colliding with it, he says, oh, you're perfectly safe.
And she says, not when you're this bloody close to it.
Because, of course, Halley's comet was approaching in the real
world and people were concerned about it impacting the surface.
Because scientific knowledge about comets wasn't as great then as
it was now.
You know, it was a, it was a minor concern, a childish concern, but
it, it was something people were considering.
And that last scene where she's trying to comfort him.
Yeah, I did like that as well.
I don't understand quite the misjudging Lytton thing because, I
mean, he never met Lytton in Resurrection of the Daleks or barely
interacted with him. that is true.
And, you know, discovering that he's working for the Crayons
instead of working for the cybermen doesn't actually change how
he's behaved.
Do you know what I mean?
And he did used to work for the Daleks.
So I'm not quite sure.
Like, I don't think that I misjudged Lytton thing quite comes
off.
It doesn't quite make sense, but I do like the downbeat ending and
I do like putting Perry in the position where she is, and in fact
she is doing the opposite of what's normally done, where you
expect Colin to be alien and unemotional.
And here it's Perry who has to pull the doctor back and prevent
him from taking Lytton has to tell him to be practical.
Which aligned with Nicola Bryant's 2nd interpretation of the
character, because we've discussed how she did a big character
brief based on Perry being with the 5th doctor and then had to
rewrite that.
And her perspective was after the events of the twin dilemma.
Why would Perry stay with the doctor?
And the conclusion she came to was, he saved my life.
I'm going to save his.
You're right, it's an inversion because the human companions of
the doctor have tended to be, in a way, his moral compass and to
remind him of, if you like, ephemeral morality.
Whereas, Perry's thing here is to remind him, okay, yes, a lot of
people have died, but we've saved the earth and we have defeated a
greater evil.
She doesn't try to say, oh, all those deaths were worth it, but
she just says to him, you know, we have had a victory.
We have had a win here.
Getting back to something you said earlier, Todd.
Even though it is locking the doctor up in a cupboard while the
plot happens around him.
I love his scenes with Flast.
It harks back to Sarah Jane with Alpha Centauri and coming to know
and respect the alien who looks so different to you.
And Flash sort of flirts with the doctor.
It is horribly uncomfortable.
Not with her, but with the idea of flirting.
And at the end, when he gives her the lance to blow up the vast or
most precious substance in the universe, et cetera.
The tenderness he shows there realising that, when he then says, oh
well, I'll call the guard over, but hold on, how are you going to
get out of here, he then realises she intends to sacrifice
herself.
And as you said earlier, Colin is great with that tender stuff and
bringing it down really low and telling her she's very brave and
then running off and doing what he has to do.
That Vastille is a remnant of an earlier script, right?
And it's unfortunate that budget cuts prevented this from being in
the final script because the idea was that the final showdown
wasn't going to happen in cybercontrol, which is about the size of
an average double bedroom.
It was going to happen inside Halle's comet.
The cyberman were going to load Halle's comet with all the
Bastille.
To create an even bigger explosion on Earth.
And the doctor was going to follow them in the TARDIS with the
cryons and it was going to be cryons versus cybermen inside
Halle's comet while the doctor diffuses the bomb.
You see, that would have been great.
Saving the earth that's happened here has been saving it from word
peril by talking.
Yeah.
And that's really boring.
And so the resolution of the plot involves lots of people shooting
one another with guns, but the idea that there would be an actual
like real tangible threat to the earth would have been a vast
improvement over, you know, a bunch of people stumbling around a
quarry and then a bunch of people shooting one another with cyber
guns.
I like the idea that you've mentioned there.
Budgetary wise, I just said that they could do it.
So they're forced to have a bunch of people in a quarry and a
bunch of people inside of control.
And such are the budgets.
All valid points.
I can see where you're coming from with the criticism that say
with writing and the structure of things and that sort of thing.
And uh, I just adore this story.
I'm sorry, listeners, I just really do.
This is in my top 25 of all time.
I just love Colin.
I love Nicola.
I love I just love the humour.
The violence stuff. doesn't worry me.
The crayons are just hilarious in what they do and what they
threaten.
And, you know, yes, this stupid thing, like the tombs look
different and you've got, why are, you know, why don't we have
those dark coloured cybermen?
don't understand.
Why are the vivification process?
Why is it all going wrong?
Like, I mean, I don't know, but I don't care.
Like, I really don't.
I just sit there just enjoying it.
And I know that most people won't, and most people will criticise
it.
But that's okay.
This is going to be a really interesting season listeners, because
I'm just going to be saying every story.
Oh, I just love this.
Despite whatever people say.
I do think the biggest problem with this story, for me anyway, is
the violence of the last 15 minutes.
But aside from that, I find it really enjoyable as well.
I always have.
I enjoyed it as a kid.
I enjoy it as an adult.
As an adult, much like Eric Saywood's other scripts, it raises a
lot of pacing questions and plotting questions.
Why is it is here?
Why is that there?
Why do the side men even bother to have a time machine?
Who did they nick it from?
Why do they never use it, et cetera?
It's off the planet at the beginning of episode 2 doing
something.
What has it been doing?
But aside from all that, I can watch this and just in the moment
enjoy it.
I only question it after I've finished.
I just think it's really tired.
That's so...
Take a bottle, dear listener.
Speaking of which, of course, Perry says in episode, I think it's
in episode one, these tunnels all look the same to me.
So listeners, you need to look out for those variations throughout
the season. need to take a drink.
I'd like to talk a bit about the ratings for this story, if I
may.
I think that's important.
So 8.900000 viewers tuned into episode one.
7.200000 tuned into episode two.
Doctor Who is back on Saturdays?
That's a drop of 1700000 between episodes.
Cheers, you know, a substantial amount.
And of course, episode one was 71st, episode 2 was 104.
Now, at the end of last season, just I just want to do a few
comparisons here.
Colin's last story.
Got 7.67.476.3.
But in terms of the actual, you know, placings of those episodes
like the 6.300000 for episode 4 of the twin dilemma came 67th, the
previous episode came 59th, right?
So you can get 7000000 viewers and come 59th.
We can get 8900000 and come 74.
And then, like if you look at something like Warriors of the Deep
going out the 1st 2 weeks of January.
It got like 7.67.5, 51st, 52nd.
But by the end of that story, it's dropped down to 6.3.
So it loses about 1300000 viewers over the course of that story.
And so here there's a big drop again.
Obviously, it's built as a new season, a new doctor, and I know
that at the time, and I remember it in the papers here, it was all
about the fact that the Tartars could be changing shape for the
1st time.
So I think there's a curiosity factor of people tuning in for that
1st episode.
I mean, 7.2 million.
Surprise, surprise, is the average viewership of Doctor Who over
the last 2 years.
So it's not like anything's different.
What is different?
is the competition.
Yes.
And episode one is not up against the competition.
Episode 2 is up against the competition, which is the A team.
Yep.
Now the A-team, for younger listeners, was a phenomenon between
983 and about 986, it was huge.
We didn't have the internet, we didn't have next day downloads and
a lot of people didn't have VCRs even.
So you had to watch it when it came out.
And often it would be like 6 months or 9 months after the US.
It started Mr. T, George Papard, the face man, I can't remember
his name, and Mr. Broccoli from Next Generation, who's not yet Mr
Broccoli.
And so, I mean, I remember in our household, we watched the AT.
I would really love to know what the viewership on ITV was between
episode one and episode two, like what happened?
What did ITV against get against episode one of Attack?
And then with the AT coming back?
Was it this one. 17 million?
Was it more than that?
But it was a phenomenon.
And unlike Buck Rogers.
Which was really terrible.
And only sort of was like 6 months and then it sort of died and
listeners will remember, of course, when we were talking about
season 18, that's what Tom went up against and it took, you know
20 episodes for the show to rise above 5000000 and it was placing
like 130th, 126th on the chart.
Right?
So you're losing a 1000000 viewers, I think, just by jumping
across.
Yeah, right?
I don't necessarily think it's the episode one.
If any of an episode was going to lose viewers.
To me, it would be episode 2 because you've got all that word
peril.
And everybody's trapped in rooms.
Yeah, yeah.
So there is a kind of narrative which is people are put off my
twin dilemma.
They tune in to see what the new doctors like in episode one and
then a quarter of the audience never comes back.
But it sounds to me that that's an unfair characterisation of
what's going on and that it doesn't take into account what's
happening on ITV.
And there's no doubt at all that the A team has a really much
broader appeal, in the sense that it's not niche cult science
fiction, it's sort of fairly straightforward action.
It appeals to people who you might have thought of as the standard
Doctor Who audience.
It's got guns, it's got, you know, car chases, it's got
helicopters.
My sisters were like, they loved Mr. T in the face, man.
My sisters were watching this.
It's funny too, isn't it?
Because you've got, and I, as I can't remember the actor's name
you've got Starbuck from Battle Star Galactica as the hearthrob
and he was a very handsome man.
You know what?
He still quite a handsome man.
There's a shot of him a few years ago.
Dirk Benedict.
Dirk Benedict. thank you And can I say Dwight Schultz as well?
Yes, yes.
Thank you, Nathan.
I just can't remember.
There's a photo a few years ago of Dirk Benedict and I'm terrible
with names today.
Starbucks from the new Battlestar Galactica.
Katie Sackoff, in a Starbucks, drinking Starbucks, smoking cigars
together, and she put it out on her Twitter, Starbucks and
Starbucks, drinking Starbucks in Starbucks.
And he's still a really handsome man.
So, you know, you've got, and this is stereotypical, of course, but
this is how people thought of television in the 80s.
You've got the action for the boys and you've got the attractive
man for the girls.
And to be fair, this is kind of what JNT thought of Doctor Who.
You've got to have Nicola in a leotard and shorts for the dads.
Oh, that outfit is awful, isn't it?
She was so happy to get into the boiler suit.
That's hilarious, like the cyberleaders says, oh, we have done
what you've asked and they put her in a new thing.
Like, he's very fashion consciously for his captives, you know?
It's a few sizes too big, and apparently the costume designer said
to Nicola, oh, we're really sorry. a few sizes too big.
No, it's fine, really.
It's fine because she really got sick of the leotards.
In terms of what people thought of this episode, even with the
huge drop in ratings, the appreciation index went up 4 points.
What, between episode one and two?
Episode one was 61.
Episode 2 was 65 And it's going to hover in the 60s throughout the
whole season, whereas some of Pete's later ones were in the high
50s.
So people are enjoying the show.
The people who are tuning in are enjoying the show.
I find that audience appreciation things from classic series are
just so over the place that you really, I personally think you
can't take a lot of stock in the most of the time because they
just, they just vary.
It left right and centre.
You just go, what the hell, you know?
And particularly as the show stops being a family show and starts
being cult science fiction, you would expect the only people still
watching to be, you know, anorex who enjoy cult science fiction.
I think part of the problem.
And it's not specifically Saywood's fault. is that it's very hard
for a script editor to edit their own work because, especially
when you are up against it, as Doctor Who scriptwriters always
were, there was never enough time.
You are not going to spot the mistakes until way down the line
possibly after production.
Because you've written it and you're too close to it.
And I know when I've written scripts, occasionally I've come back
to them, and I've left out a crucial line because it's been so
vivid in my head, I've forgotten to write it on the page because I
don't think it's needed.
And then I come back to it.
It was like, well, hold on, that's that's the whole message of
this play.
That's the whole point of this scene.
When Douglas Adams was writing for the show, Graham Williams had
experiences a script editor, so they sort of bounced off each
other that way.
Christopher Hamilton bid mead when he was writing for the show.
I mean, you know, we've praised Legopolos and Castra Volver, but
in terms of structure, because they have such great ideas, it
doesn't matter if they're a bit strangely structured.
Because attack of the cybermen is a really quite a straightforward
idea, despite the backflips with continuity, we do have that info
dump scene, but that gives you everything you need to know.
Because it's got such a simple structure, it really needs to be
clear in what it's doing.
It's unfortunate that it isn't, but I don't think it's, I don't
think it's a deal breaker in the same way that the twin dilemma
was.
Well, that's all the time we have for the, uh, orange gravel pits
of Telos.
Uh, we are trying to take off, but unfortunately, we're out of
Ziton 7, so we're going to have to pay a visit to Martin Jarvis on
vengeance on Varos.
Do come back next week for that.
And don't forget to subscribe on our website, flight through
entirety.sexy, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and
at FTE podcast on Twitter.
Over on Bondfinger.
We've recently wrapped up the Roger Moore era with a view to a
kill during which we drank 4 bottles of wine between the 4 of us
not each.
Not each.
So you can find out for yourself how incredibly dangerous
saltwater is over on bondfinger.com.
Bond finger on Facebook and iTunes and Bond finger cast on
Twitter.
I'm going to take a moment for self-promotion because a book I
have written for has recently come out called Hating to Love
reassessing the 52 worst Doctor Who stories of all time.
In that book I've written essays on stories such as Time Flight
The Beast Below, and Inferno.
What's Inferno doing in there?
Well, you'll have to buy the book and find out, and there will be
a link for that in the show notes.
I'm also in that book along with many other talented podcasters
including J.R.
Southall of Bluebox.
Until then, may none of your hometically sealed heads not properly
fit the girlfriend of Prince Andrew.
Thank you very much for listening and good night.
Good night.
See you soon That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd
Beelby, Nathan Bottomley, and Brenda Jones.
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.
This episode, even better with your face, was recorded on the 15th
of January 2017.
The next episode will be released on the 5th of February.
Avid font fans should continue listening after this announcement
for a discussion of the typographical issues that plague the
opening credits for season 22.
Can anybody answer me this question?
Why, in the opening credits, is Attack of the Cyberman?
Written in all capitals.
In fact, it goes on for the rest of the season.
Yeah, yeah, it's horrible.
Well, not in the original versions.
Only in our 25 minute versions.
No, I'm watching 45 minute versions.
Because what happened?
This is going to be boring.
We'll cut all this out.
But when they were released in Australia.
Instead of the font that we use on the website, it's just
Helvetica.
The outlines, the fonts all wrong, and the part numbers and
stuff.
But what Todd?
Yeah, it is.
It's all in capitals and so it's part 2 and it goes by Paul Moore
and she's all capitals as well.
Yeah, yeah.
It just doesn't make.
Yeah, I just don't know why they made that decision.
It seems, it seems bizarre, really.
We need to wind up.
Yep, yep.
I think we've got enough.
Oh yeah, definitely.
Okay.
Wait until I get to vengeance on Faros, but...
Oh great.
I'm about to praise it even more than this one.
I like it, Todd.
Okay.