WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 12:02:46

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast who has never misjudged anyone quite

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so badly as we did Paula Moore.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan I'm Todd.

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And we're embarking on Colin Baker's 1st full season of the doctor

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with the nostalgia fest that is Attack of the Cybermen.

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This is a doctor story that some people love, for all its

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continuity references, and equally, some people hate it, for all

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of its continuity references.

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Todd, what do you think?

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I love it.

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Thank you.

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Yes, I agree.

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I mean, we have.

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Look, you know, I was 12 or 13 at the time, and, you know, it's

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referencing all these things, like the 10th planet, the tomb of

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the cybermen, even, you know, the Lytton staff, the terrible Zode

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in, which is one of my all-time favourite jokes, which I've

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mentioned before.

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And I am foreman, you know, the heart is changing.

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I really adore part one of this 2 part story, like nothing else.

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The continuity references are really funny because there are

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different kind of continuity from what we're able to experience

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now because we've actually had the opportunity to see all of those

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stories.

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And those of us on this flight have actually even seen the stories

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that don't exist.

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So we know what's being referred to.

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And I think even things like Wheeling Space are sort of hinted

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at.

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But what was available back in the 1980s was essentially the

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Doctor Who Monster book.

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And so no one had really seen Tomb of the Cyberman, it hadn't been

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rediscovered by then, not for another 7 years after this.

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It was nearly impossible to see the 10th planet.

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And so all of those things, it gets horribly wrong, doesn't it?

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I mean, all of the continuity stuff is kind of incorrect.

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Well, visually, the continuity is wrong, but the references made

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in the script are correct.

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You know, the doctor mentions that Mondas will approach Earth in a

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year's time, which that in itself is an interesting idea.

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They're not basing it at the same time as that is happening.

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It's a preventative plot by the side, man.

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What it reminded me of, and I think I watched this at around the

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same time when I was a child. is return to Oz.

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The sequel to the Wizard of Oz made 50 years afterwards.

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So visually, it's incredibly different.

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Scarecrow appears in one scene and is an animatronic rather than

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Ray Bulger, of course.

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But at the same time, I think as a child you kind of accept those

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visual inconsistencies, perhaps now as an adult, we might look at

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it and say, that's a bit off.

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This seems like a good time to talk about authorship of this

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story.

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I mentioned Paula Moore in my introduction, who this story is

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credited to.

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And even in Doctor Who, the Complete History, the new part work

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from Doctor Who magazine, our sponsors at Doctor Who magazine, they

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don't sponsor.

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But even in that book, there's pretty much a paragraph saying, we

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still don't quite know who wrote this.

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So the current working idea is that Eric Saywood came up with the

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story, wrote the script with an ex-girlfriend of his Paula Wolsey

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who was trying to break in as a television writer.

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Put it under the name Paulamore with continuity input from Ian

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Levine.

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But Ian Levine has also said that he and Eric wrote the script

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together to the point that they sort of hothoused it over a

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weekend and about 18 hours in, Ian's like, look, I don't think

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this story is working.

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I want to go home to which they would replied, if you want to

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write a script for the show, this is your only chance.

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I'll make you a star kind of thing.

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Ian has been on recorder saying, you know, yes, I suggested the

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cyber tombs, but I said build them in exactly the same way.

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And instead they build these sort of frig rooms, are they?

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these big Tesco refrigerators kind of thing.

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Even then, I don't mind that design.

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But yeah, it's a strange decision to steep it in so much

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continuity, but then update the design.

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Yeah.

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I mean, the cybermen of the 1980s are absolutely nothing at all

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like the cybermen in the 10th planet.

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And I'm not sure what the references to the 10th planet add to the

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story apart from some really bad word peril.

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And I guess the worst example of that is when in episode one, the

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doctor and Perry are in the control room looking at that

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lamentable special effect that's supposed to represent Halle's

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comet on the screen and Perry complaining that she's very scared

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but it's actually hard to tell why.

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It's not something, I think, that sort of lands.

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And there is just something a little bit tiresome and a little bit

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routine about, you know, the cybermen are somehow going back in

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time and preventing, you know, Mondas from exploding or whatever

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where none of that stuff is really present to anyone in the

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audience except the Doctor Who Monster book reading contingent.

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It's funny, I have a completely different take on this from

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everybody else.

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I don't have a problem with the redesign of the tombs.

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I just accept that it's a different part of the tomb system.

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Eric's rewriting history by introducing the crayons who've come up

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with the refrigeration on Tellos.

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And, you know, I don't think that necessarily contradicts anything

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that's ever been said.

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It's just never been said.

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And the fact that it's like 15 years or 16 years after, I would

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never expect them to do the tombs exactly the way that they were

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since this story doesn't exist at this point in the archives.

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Obviously now we're used to CGI and all continuity references in

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shows and going back.

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So you would think that if it was done now that they would do it

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in the style of.

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And I think it's, for me, it's just not a problem, right?

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Having the redesign there.

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They try to do 2 levels, you know, it's their own take on it.

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For me, the whole thing is the fact that this is completely

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consistent with the production team of Eric Sabre and John Nathan

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Turner over the last 3 years.

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In that, the 1st story of every season is their attempt to rewrite

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Doctor Who history in some way.

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I hadn't noticed that, but you're right.

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And so here, you know, they're going back to, as I said, Tim and

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Simon 10th Planet, things that people at this point don't really

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know, but are lauded as fantastic, and they're putting their own

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spin on it through the crayons and that sort of thing.

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Last year, Eric got Johnny Byrne to do, again, the Silurians and

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the sea devils with, you know, the Merkers, the new element there

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and different continuity going back to the Silurians and the sea

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devil stories that people love, but not necessarily it's seen, year

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before that.

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They've done their take on Omega, which is a completely different

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take.

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You know, he's got a TARDIS.

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They've introduced the Arc of Infinity so we can get from anti

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matter to matter.

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So, referencing back to the 3 doctors.

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And even the year before that with the master.

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It's now the master of literal disguise as opposed to

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figuratively.

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This is completely consistent, you know?

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They're pandering more and more to the Doctor Who audience and

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it's their take on things and they're reworking.

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And, you know, they're even a year ahead.

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They're planning to go back even further to the mythical, magical

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celestial toy maker and rewrite that.

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So, um, And a lot of the exposition is actually in part 2 of this

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45 minute story when they're aboard the TARDIS, where there's an

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info dump from hell. which I really love, right?

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But I completely understand if casual viewers are going, what the

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hell is this, you know, and why is this?

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I guess the biggest thing is the cyber controller.

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We now know that the cyber controller appears to be completely

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destroyed.

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But, you know, here he's merely damaged, according to the cyber

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leader.

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I don't and I don't really have a problem with that.

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I mean, I think quite often, you know, even Moffatt in all of the

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stuff that he does now will say people have died, but it's like

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that's not really the whole story.

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Yeah.

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And the cybermen, we now see can download from one to another.

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So I'm quite happy with the fact that he was merely damaged could

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mean that, you know, in the moment of death, his whole

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consciousness is downloaded to a new cyber controller, and we

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don't have 5 minutes of exposition of how that happened.

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I think the big problem with the cyber controller is not the

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explanation for how he got here, but how truly, truly terrible he

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is.

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And I think Russell T. Davis has mentioned that he has a really

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strong memory of the cyber control.

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And remember the cyber controller from Tomb of the Cybermen, didn't

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have a chest unit, so he was really sleek and slim.

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He was super tall and he had that huge dome on his head that was

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transparent and seemed to be glowing.

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It's a little bit hard to tell in black and white.

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And I think Russell imagined that the brain was sort of visible

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through it.

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There are certainly veins or something.

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And then Russell used that design both in rise of the cyberman, or

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age of steel, rather, and in the next doctor, where you can see

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the brain visible in the cyberman.

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So it was a really striking memorable design.

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And I really like that cyber controller.

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And that was played by Michael Kilgareth, who would go on to play

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the K1 robot in robot, and who has been cast as the

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cybercontroller here 148 years later.

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And he's eaten a lot of pies. since the shooting of Tomb of the

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Sidemen and he's really fat.

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And he's not the only fat cyberman.

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He's offsider is also got a pretty hefty backside on him as well.

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And he didn't do the voice.

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Remember, back then, the voices in Tomb of the Sidemen, the voices

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were wonderful.

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They were almost completely incomprehensible.

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Yeah, wonderful. just terrific.

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But here it's the sort of crappy sub Darth Vader voices that David

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Banks stars.

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So the cybercontroller just looks terrible.

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Like, he just looks stupid.

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He's got a big cone head for no readily apparent reason with sort

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of rivets on it.

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He weighs 130 kilograms in the shade.

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He waves his arms around and does a sort of terrible, terrible

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Michael Kilgareth voice.

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And his offside are like so many cybermen offsiders have these

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sort of stupid posh voices as well.

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So all of those scenes where he's talking in the control room are

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just terrifically bad.

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It is a fat controller.

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I, I, I doesn't love it.

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I just love it.

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I love it.

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The fact that it's the fat controller.

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I love the fact that they redesign it with the dome head.

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I just sit there just chuckling away at the crapness of the

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cyberman and their entire plan and the fact that they will be

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defeated.

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So I just enjoy it.

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I mean, he wasn't originally going to be cast.

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They offered the part to David Banks and he turned it down.

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So then of course they went to him.

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Let's go back to episode one.

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So this season is the 1st season that's actually Doctor Who's in

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45 minute episodes.

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The decision that was made in light of the previous season

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Resurrection of the Daleks.

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Its episodes were edited together so that it went out in 2 parts

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rather than 4 and the then control of the BBC said, oh, look at

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these wonderful ratings, you know, which weren't really that much

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better than the rest of the season.

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And, you know, yes, let's go to 45 minutes for this coming

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season.

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It was already in the offing that they were thinking of doing that

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because they were having to prepare the scripts and that just kind

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of solidified it.

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So it was like, it was sort of 75% decided and they did a test and

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it's like, hey, that works really well.

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And I think Attack of the Sidemen is one of the stories where it

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works better in this story than other stories of this season.

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Because the temptation for them is going to be the structure of

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the 1st episode of any Doctor Who story in the 80s, at any rate, is

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the 1st 10 minutes are you setting up the world, and then we come

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to the TARDIS, and the TARDIS arrives at around the 15 minute mark

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00:12:28.259 --> 00:12:31.799
just in time for them to get into trouble in the 1st cliffhanger.

246
00:12:31.860 --> 00:12:35.279
Now, this doesn't happen in Attack of the Sidemen, they do arrive

247
00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:39.600
in London within the 1st 15 minutes of the 45 minutes, but it'll

248
00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:42.720
become a problem further on in the season where they still kind of

249
00:12:42.720 --> 00:12:47.639
take the idea that the Tartar shouldn't arrive until 3 quarters of

250
00:12:47.639 --> 00:12:51.659
the way through a 45 minute episode, and that will become a

251
00:12:51.659 --> 00:12:52.080
problem.

252
00:12:52.139 --> 00:12:56.399
In terms of these 45 minute episodes, of course, they became 25

253
00:12:56.399 --> 00:12:57.720
minute episodes in Australia.

254
00:12:57.779 --> 00:13:00.659
They were just sort of chopped in half without much thought as to

255
00:13:00.659 --> 00:13:01.799
where the cliffhanger went.

256
00:13:01.860 --> 00:13:06.120
Now, the new episode one cliffhanger of this one actually isn't

257
00:13:06.120 --> 00:13:06.480
too bad.

258
00:13:06.539 --> 00:13:10.500
It's the doctor and Perry down in the sewers, and you see one of

259
00:13:10.500 --> 00:13:15.240
the black scout cybermen come up behind them and the titles kick

260
00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:15.480
in.

261
00:13:15.539 --> 00:13:16.980
So that works as a cliffhanger.

262
00:13:17.039 --> 00:13:21.240
We'll get some pretty terrible cliffhangers inventions on Baros.

263
00:13:21.299 --> 00:13:24.840
I can't remember what the episode 3 cliffhanger to this one is.

264
00:13:24.899 --> 00:13:26.820
I think it might be lit in getting caught or something.

265
00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:31.019
No, I think it's one of the cryons saying for Mondas to survive.

266
00:13:31.080 --> 00:13:33.059
The earth must be destroyed.

267
00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:34.860
I think that's the end of episode three.

268
00:13:34.919 --> 00:13:35.700
Yeah, you're right, actually.

269
00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:37.139
And that's a good cliffhanger.

270
00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:39.840
So this works as a four-parter and as a two-parter.

271
00:13:39.899 --> 00:13:40.679
Can I just say?

272
00:13:40.679 --> 00:13:44.220
I love all these fake cliffhangers that we got here in Australia.

273
00:13:44.279 --> 00:13:46.620
I think we should make a point of mentioning them.

274
00:13:46.679 --> 00:13:50.220
I've got a particular favourite in the 2 doctors. my favourites in

275
00:13:50.220 --> 00:13:50.700
the 2 doctors.

276
00:13:50.759 --> 00:13:52.860
Is that... no, no.

277
00:13:52.919 --> 00:13:53.700
We're not going to mention it.

278
00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:54.659
We're going to wait.

279
00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:55.200
We're going to wait.

280
00:13:55.259 --> 00:13:55.500
Sorry.

281
00:13:55.559 --> 00:13:59.639
I will say when we get to it next week, the ones in vengeance on

282
00:13:59.639 --> 00:14:04.139
Varos for the new episodes, one and 3 are particularly hilariously

283
00:14:04.139 --> 00:14:06.179
dire, but we'll get to those.

284
00:14:06.299 --> 00:14:09.720
One of the one of the things about, um, obviously listeners for

285
00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:13.679
overseas sales, everything was restructured for 25 minutes, um, or

286
00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:14.759
22.5 minutes.

287
00:14:14.820 --> 00:14:17.220
But it's literally who's ever there is taking no notice of what

288
00:14:17.220 --> 00:14:20.759
scenes are before or after and, you know, maybe we'll wait 30

289
00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:23.820
seconds because there's a better cliffhanger. at that mark, boom

290
00:14:23.820 --> 00:14:28.019
and, you know, sometimes there's better cliffhangers around there

291
00:14:28.019 --> 00:14:29.460
like, through coincidence or whatever.

292
00:14:29.519 --> 00:14:33.659
Well, I actually wondered whether there had been some plans to do

293
00:14:33.659 --> 00:14:37.559
this in 4 parts at some point. or when it was devised, it might be

294
00:14:37.559 --> 00:14:39.480
like that because at the halfway point.

295
00:14:39.539 --> 00:14:42.720
That is where Lytton meets the cybermen.

296
00:14:42.779 --> 00:14:46.559
We get the proper big episode one, you know, monster reveal

297
00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:47.220
cliffhanger.

298
00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:48.059
So it did seem to be there.

299
00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:49.679
I have to disagree.

300
00:14:49.740 --> 00:14:53.700
I don't think the 45 minute structure works in this story at all

301
00:14:53.700 --> 00:14:58.620
and for precisely the reasons that Brendan identifies where they

302
00:14:58.620 --> 00:15:03.059
tend to make part one of this two-part story like a 25 minute part

303
00:15:03.059 --> 00:15:03.419
one.

304
00:15:03.539 --> 00:15:06.299
And so 17, 18 minutes in.

305
00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:08.879
The doctor and Perry, even though they've arrived in London, all

306
00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:11.759
they've done is walk up and down some laneways and talk to one

307
00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:15.120
another and they haven't really interacted with anyone or joined

308
00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:16.379
the story at any point.

309
00:15:16.620 --> 00:15:18.899
See I'm going to disagree with you on that.

310
00:15:18.960 --> 00:15:22.320
I actually think this is one of the best 45 minute part ones.

311
00:15:22.379 --> 00:15:26.639
They have a bit of a talk in the TARDIS, you know, their usual

312
00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:30.539
tete a tete, where it's not too bad in terms of having an argument

313
00:15:30.539 --> 00:15:31.679
I think it's worse than the next story.

314
00:15:31.740 --> 00:15:35.159
And then they're out exploring London, the doctors trying to find

315
00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:38.279
this alien, you know, although they haven't met the characters

316
00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:40.860
they are involved with the plot because they're trying to get to

317
00:15:40.860 --> 00:15:42.360
the plot, it is so well done.

318
00:15:42.360 --> 00:15:46.740
And something Eric Zay would have said about his concept for this

319
00:15:46.740 --> 00:15:50.460
script was he felt that twin dilemma wasn't a good start for the

320
00:15:50.460 --> 00:15:52.500
character and it wasn't a good start for the relationship.

321
00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:56.820
So I think we kind of need the 15 minutes of just the 2 of them

322
00:15:56.820 --> 00:16:00.779
together to reestablish this relationship in a better way, and

323
00:16:00.779 --> 00:16:04.200
there is still tension between them, but there is a lot more

324
00:16:04.200 --> 00:16:04.740
warmth.

325
00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:06.480
They're making jokes with each other.

326
00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:08.940
And there's a beautiful moment halfway through the episode where

327
00:16:08.940 --> 00:16:12.000
they kind of give up the search and the doctor can't think of what

328
00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:12.419
to do.

329
00:16:12.419 --> 00:16:15.720
And Perry's the one who raises the point of, well, even if he's

330
00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:18.779
not there, he'll need to know if people turn up and the doctor

331
00:16:18.779 --> 00:16:21.539
turns to her and tells her, you're absolutely brilliant.

332
00:16:21.539 --> 00:16:25.200
And it mitigates some of the tension we've had already.

333
00:16:25.559 --> 00:16:29.039
But also there's some really cute moments like where she's having

334
00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:30.179
a go about his memory.

335
00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:33.720
And he does the very doctor-ish thing of ignoring her concern, but

336
00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:35.700
going, oh, I called you Zoden, did I?

337
00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:39.299
No, I think the funny thing there is that she describes his memory

338
00:16:39.299 --> 00:16:44.220
as seeming like it had gone through a mincer and she elaborates on

339
00:16:44.220 --> 00:16:46.980
that a little bit and he says, that's a terrible simile.

340
00:16:47.100 --> 00:16:52.919
I actually think I went into this expecting to dislike Colin much

341
00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:53.940
much more than I did.

342
00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:58.259
And all of the moments of conflict and when he's rude to her and

343
00:16:58.259 --> 00:17:01.620
unlikeable, which is a deliberate choice that the production team

344
00:17:01.620 --> 00:17:06.660
is making, all of those moments are terrible, they're awful.

345
00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:09.660
And I really, really wish that they hadn't gone that way.

346
00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:11.579
It was a bad, bad idea.

347
00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:16.980
When he's called upon to do warmth, he does it really well.

348
00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:19.859
And when he's called upon to be silly.

349
00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:23.940
And overconfident about his abilities, but wrong.

350
00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:26.700
So when he's repairing the TARDIS at the beginning and he sort of

351
00:17:26.700 --> 00:17:29.640
stuffs it up and it goes wrong, but he's super confident that it's

352
00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:30.359
going to be okay.

353
00:17:30.420 --> 00:17:35.279
Whenever he does that, he's really, really funny and really quite

354
00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:36.180
sweet.

355
00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:39.480
And there's even one moment, you know, people criticise this

356
00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:40.859
because the doctor's violent.

357
00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:44.460
And there is that scene in episode one with the policeman where

358
00:17:44.460 --> 00:17:48.720
the doctor leaps down that hole and then comes back up with the

359
00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:52.019
policeman's helmet and Perry's already overcome the other

360
00:17:52.019 --> 00:17:56.160
policeman and she asks the doctor, where's the policeman?

361
00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:59.160
And he says, oh, I think he's having a little lie down somewhere.

362
00:17:59.220 --> 00:18:03.000
I just think that's really terrific and he's really quite fun.

363
00:18:03.059 --> 00:18:05.640
I think there's nothing wrong with that We've seen as early as

364
00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:08.700
heart and all doctor has no objection to a bit of fisticuffs.

365
00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:12.000
And I think Eric Saywood makes the very clever decision.

366
00:18:12.059 --> 00:18:14.940
And look, let's just face it, Saywood wrote this.

367
00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:15.779
Yeah, yeah.

368
00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:19.079
I think Eric Saywood makes a very clever decision that the

369
00:18:19.079 --> 00:18:22.380
doctor's fistfight with the policeman is done off camera.

370
00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:22.920
I agree.

371
00:18:22.980 --> 00:18:25.500
I think with Colin Baker's doctor.

372
00:18:25.559 --> 00:18:28.559
I've mentioned this before with him because he is such a

373
00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:30.119
physically imposing presence.

374
00:18:30.180 --> 00:18:32.339
By that, I mean he's over 6 foot tall.

375
00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:33.779
He is well built.

376
00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:37.859
If you ran into the 6th doctor in an alleyway and he was annoyed

377
00:18:37.859 --> 00:18:39.779
with you and holding a broken bottle, you would fear for your life

378
00:18:39.779 --> 00:18:40.440
kind of thing.

379
00:18:40.500 --> 00:18:44.160
If you ran into Hartnell in a dark alley and he was holding a

380
00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:46.500
broken bottle, it'd just be an average Saturday night for him.

381
00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:53.099
But the less we can show of the 6 doctor being physically imitably

382
00:18:53.099 --> 00:18:54.779
violent, the better.

383
00:18:55.079 --> 00:18:59.039
Flashing forward to the end of the story where news flash, he goes

384
00:18:59.039 --> 00:19:00.359
berserk with a cyber gun.

385
00:19:00.420 --> 00:19:01.559
I also don't have a problem with that.

386
00:19:01.619 --> 00:19:02.759
No, that's horrible.

387
00:19:02.819 --> 00:19:07.920
I don't have a problem with it. horrible, but it is apt in that

388
00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:08.460
situation.

389
00:19:08.460 --> 00:19:11.400
And it's not like he jumps out of the TARTIS and grabs the 1st gun

390
00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:12.299
he can find.

391
00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:16.440
It's a matter of he comes under attack and grabs a gun to defend

392
00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:16.740
himself.

393
00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:19.859
But I just don't think the scriptwriter should be putting him in

394
00:19:19.859 --> 00:19:20.339
that position.

395
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:24.779
And like that is a particularly horrible one where, you know, he

396
00:19:24.779 --> 00:19:29.400
shoots the cyber controller with a big gun at point blank range

397
00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:32.519
you know, things come out of the cyber controller's head.

398
00:19:32.519 --> 00:19:36.299
And that has been the culmination of, you know, I think the story

399
00:19:36.299 --> 00:19:40.920
degenerates in episode 2 and just becomes the usual, say, with

400
00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:43.859
people shooting one another with guns thing that we've had over

401
00:19:43.859 --> 00:19:44.700
and over again.

402
00:19:44.759 --> 00:19:48.660
And it's boring and I really dislike it.

403
00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:52.140
In episode one, there is that scene where Perry has a gun.

404
00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:55.019
I think it's unfortunate that the companion chooses to carry a gun

405
00:19:55.019 --> 00:19:55.619
but whatever.

406
00:19:55.680 --> 00:20:01.319
But again, I really like Colin's comic timing in the scene where

407
00:20:01.319 --> 00:20:06.119
he tells Perry to shoot the policeman, shooting Perry, and it's

408
00:20:06.119 --> 00:20:08.339
really offhanded. you know, oh, I'm sick of their shooting, you

409
00:20:08.339 --> 00:20:10.319
know, and we don't believe that for a second.

410
00:20:10.380 --> 00:20:13.140
We know he's joking and Collins comic timing is wonderful.

411
00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:16.619
Unfortunately, there is a line cut from the script when they're

412
00:20:16.619 --> 00:20:19.500
going down the sewers and periung clips, the silencer and

413
00:20:19.500 --> 00:20:19.799
whatever.

414
00:20:19.859 --> 00:20:24.420
Perry is meant to say, I don't actually know how to use this, but

415
00:20:24.420 --> 00:20:26.759
no one else knows that, so it could come in handy.

416
00:20:26.819 --> 00:20:30.359
It kind of explains why when the doctor says shoot him, you know

417
00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:32.759
she's both nervous that she's been asked to shoot someone, but

418
00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:35.759
it's also, I've told you, I don't know how to use this thing.

419
00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:40.440
The weird thing was, there was also a bit in the script originally

420
00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:44.460
where Perry comments that the guns the policemen have are illegal

421
00:20:44.460 --> 00:20:47.819
in the states, and the doctor responds something along the lines

422
00:20:47.819 --> 00:20:50.640
of, Oh, yes, well, you can always trust British police ingenuity.

423
00:20:50.700 --> 00:20:53.220
And I think they may have cut it because of that 2nd line as being

424
00:20:53.220 --> 00:20:54.180
critical at the police.

425
00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:57.299
But yeah, the concept that there might be a gun that's illegal in

426
00:20:57.299 --> 00:20:57.599
America.

427
00:20:57.660 --> 00:20:59.339
It's unimaginable.

428
00:20:59.460 --> 00:20:59.940
I know.

429
00:20:59.940 --> 00:21:02.039
So back to episode one again.

430
00:21:02.099 --> 00:21:06.180
I'm going to disagree with Nathan on a few things that he's now

431
00:21:06.180 --> 00:21:09.839
said. about the doctor and Perry relationship and being horrible

432
00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:10.380
to Perry.

433
00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:14.279
I don't actually see him being particularly horrible to pairing at

434
00:21:14.279 --> 00:21:14.460
all.

435
00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:17.160
Um, I just think it's the nature of their relationship.

436
00:21:17.220 --> 00:21:21.900
And I actually think, if Eric Saywood instructed all of his script

437
00:21:21.900 --> 00:21:24.900
writers throughout the season to write all the light stuff and the

438
00:21:24.900 --> 00:21:28.500
comic stuff for Colin and and the warmth, plus some of the

439
00:21:28.500 --> 00:21:28.920
tension.

440
00:21:28.980 --> 00:21:31.440
People wouldn't have as much problem with the rest of the season.

441
00:21:31.500 --> 00:21:33.839
I think it's quite ironic that in the 2 stories that he writes.

442
00:21:33.900 --> 00:21:37.380
He actually writes better than Robert Holmes, for example, or even

443
00:21:37.380 --> 00:21:42.420
Philip Martin coming up in terms of the Dr. Perry, having big

444
00:21:42.420 --> 00:21:45.660
fights and that sort of thing, or even Pip and Jane Baker, where I

445
00:21:45.660 --> 00:21:48.720
think is actually probably the worst relationship of the entire

446
00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:49.079
season.

447
00:21:49.140 --> 00:21:51.059
But we'll talk about that when we get to it.

448
00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:53.880
I just think Collins' performance throughout this entire story.

449
00:21:53.940 --> 00:21:56.400
He's just got, you know, when a new doctor comes in, I just love

450
00:21:56.400 --> 00:21:57.180
the energy.

451
00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:00.779
Like, you may recall listeners that I really love John in his 1st

452
00:22:00.779 --> 00:22:03.000
season, and I actually picked his performance in that over

453
00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:04.980
everybody else, his season 11.

454
00:22:05.220 --> 00:22:06.539
I love Tom in his 1st season.

455
00:22:06.599 --> 00:22:09.900
Colin's performance in this, and I was speaking to Richard about

456
00:22:09.900 --> 00:22:10.140
this.

457
00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:12.539
We just adored it.

458
00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:15.299
And even Richard said to me, this, he thinks this is possibly

459
00:22:15.299 --> 00:22:17.759
Collins' best performance as the doctor.

460
00:22:17.819 --> 00:22:20.819
No, I'm not going to necessarily say that, but I just think

461
00:22:20.819 --> 00:22:25.380
throughout all of this story, the warmth, the bits of silliness

462
00:22:25.380 --> 00:22:29.460
that you've mentioned, and even when he gets irritable, I just

463
00:22:29.460 --> 00:22:30.059
think he's great.

464
00:22:30.119 --> 00:22:34.079
I think that there's a weakness that I identified, I think last

465
00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:37.859
week in the in the Pete retrospective, which is that Saywood can't

466
00:22:37.859 --> 00:22:41.339
write convincing dialogue, and his dialogue is stilted and

467
00:22:41.339 --> 00:22:42.000
artificial.

468
00:22:42.059 --> 00:22:46.680
And because Colin is doing a kind of theatrical thing, particularly

469
00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:51.839
when he's being sort of pompous doctor, it really, really shows up

470
00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:55.619
the kind of flaws in the dialogue.

471
00:22:55.740 --> 00:22:59.579
And so when Collins being silly or warm or charming, I think is

472
00:22:59.579 --> 00:23:00.180
terrific.

473
00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:04.440
When he's being irritable or blustering or delivering speeches, I

474
00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:06.299
think he's terrible.

475
00:23:06.359 --> 00:23:10.619
And I think one of the reasons why big finish, he fares so well in

476
00:23:10.619 --> 00:23:13.079
big finish, is that the writing is better.

477
00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:18.000
And so when he gets to bluster, and be pompous, he's usually

478
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:20.880
delivering more realistic dialogue.

479
00:23:20.940 --> 00:23:22.740
And so he just sounds less terrible.

480
00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:27.900
But I think there is a kind of unfortunate moment where the

481
00:23:27.900 --> 00:23:30.960
writers are giving him things to do that they're not good at

482
00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:37.859
writing that are shown up by the kind of theatricality of Collins

483
00:23:37.859 --> 00:23:39.480
performance in those moments.

484
00:23:39.539 --> 00:23:45.000
And so I find a lot to like a lot more than I expected about

485
00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:48.720
Colin's performance, but I still can't get over moments where I

486
00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:49.559
don't think he's very good.

487
00:23:49.619 --> 00:23:52.019
And the other thing that I don't think he's very good at is

488
00:23:52.019 --> 00:23:57.059
conveying sort of pain or fear because it always just ends up with

489
00:23:57.059 --> 00:24:01.019
him opening his mouth and kind of poking his big fat tongue out

490
00:24:01.019 --> 00:24:03.480
you know, and I'm never convinced by that either.

491
00:24:03.660 --> 00:24:06.839
So, and the coat.

492
00:24:07.500 --> 00:24:09.240
The coat.

493
00:24:09.299 --> 00:24:11.759
The only thing worse than the code of the moments where he takes

494
00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:12.539
the coat off.

495
00:24:12.599 --> 00:24:14.220
I just can't get over it.

496
00:24:14.279 --> 00:24:15.900
So I think that's a problem.

497
00:24:16.380 --> 00:24:20.400
And I think that there are structural problems with this story as

498
00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:20.700
well.

499
00:24:21.240 --> 00:24:24.660
Well, I think it takes a 90 degree turn halfway through the

500
00:24:24.660 --> 00:24:24.900
story.

501
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:28.079
I think the 1st the 1st episode is a complete runaround and we get

502
00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:31.619
introduced to Lytton and his team, and we also get introduced to

503
00:24:31.619 --> 00:24:35.039
Stratton and Bates, and they're, um, is it Stratton and Bates?

504
00:24:35.099 --> 00:24:35.819
It's Stratton.

505
00:24:35.880 --> 00:24:37.319
I think it's Bates and Stratton, actually.

506
00:24:37.380 --> 00:24:39.059
I think they're hilarious.

507
00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:40.500
I love all their stuff on the sober planet.

508
00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:43.440
I just crack up at all the theatrics of trying to escape.

509
00:24:43.500 --> 00:24:45.299
I hate them so much.

510
00:24:45.420 --> 00:24:50.099
And one of them just spends the entire time screaming at the other

511
00:24:50.099 --> 00:24:54.359
one in this sort of very, very like tiresome way.

512
00:24:54.420 --> 00:24:58.440
And the problem with it is their plot doesn't go anywhere.

513
00:24:58.500 --> 00:25:02.039
And there is a there's this whole plot line through it that could

514
00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:05.460
just be neatly excised from the entire episode and make absolutely

515
00:25:05.460 --> 00:25:07.920
no difference to the story at all.

516
00:25:08.039 --> 00:25:11.220
You've got, you know, Brian Glover meets up with them.

517
00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:15.660
They're going to steal a spaceship, presumably it's the spaceship

518
00:25:15.660 --> 00:25:17.940
that the sidemen intend to use to go back in time.

519
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:19.200
Is that right?

520
00:25:19.259 --> 00:25:19.619
Yes.

521
00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:22.619
But it just, it doesn't go anywhere.

522
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:28.380
Yeah, the reason that they don't really go anywhere is because the

523
00:25:28.380 --> 00:25:29.039
scripts were running under.

524
00:25:29.099 --> 00:25:30.779
They're padding.

525
00:25:30.779 --> 00:25:34.440
And I am not saying that in terms of their performance or in terms

526
00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:38.700
of the quality of their dialogue, they are padding characters

527
00:25:38.700 --> 00:25:41.039
who've been added in because the script was running under.

528
00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:47.339
As it is, in a way, I quite like seeing them because we have been

529
00:25:47.339 --> 00:25:51.720
told that the cybermen have humanoids working for them, and it

530
00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:55.500
introduces a new idea when we realise they're partially cyber

531
00:25:55.500 --> 00:25:58.680
converted and they're rejects from the cyber conversion process.

532
00:25:58.680 --> 00:26:02.460
So it's like, if your brain cannot be cyber converted, they will

533
00:26:02.460 --> 00:26:04.380
still use your body under slave labour.

534
00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:06.240
They'll chop your arms and legs off.

535
00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:10.619
Saturday tea time amputations.

536
00:26:10.680 --> 00:26:12.539
Well, isn't it any?

537
00:26:12.599 --> 00:26:16.319
No, I know, but well, we see that he has a sort of unconvincing

538
00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:18.299
sort of metal hand.

539
00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:20.819
Is it any more horrible than what happened to Toberman?

540
00:26:20.940 --> 00:26:23.220
And that was Saturday tea time.

541
00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:24.599
Oh, yeah, and that was terrible as well.

542
00:26:24.660 --> 00:26:28.920
It is reintroducing them as a force of horror.

543
00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:34.200
And I will agree that the off discussed, lit and hand crushing

544
00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:34.500
scene.

545
00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:35.460
It goes too far there.

546
00:26:35.579 --> 00:26:38.759
And that could have been done so much more effectively because

547
00:26:38.759 --> 00:26:43.140
Maurice Cobone, as Lytton has a brilliant screen when he's having

548
00:26:43.140 --> 00:26:44.039
his hands crushed.

549
00:26:44.099 --> 00:26:47.519
I think you could have just cut away to the cyber controller and

550
00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:51.720
had the scream. and have it left up to your imagination what is

551
00:26:51.720 --> 00:26:52.440
happening to him.

552
00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:55.680
Because there's a puddle of blood on the floor after it happens.

553
00:26:55.740 --> 00:26:57.960
I mean, it is absolutely appalling.

554
00:26:58.019 --> 00:27:01.799
He's got bags of fake blood in his hands, which he just squeezes

555
00:27:01.799 --> 00:27:03.059
and they burst and what have you.

556
00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:07.140
The thing is, though, everyone on set thought it was a step too

557
00:27:07.140 --> 00:27:07.319
far.

558
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:11.519
Like Michael Kilgareff objected, Colin Baker objected.

559
00:27:11.579 --> 00:27:14.700
Morris Colburn objected, but, you know, they got on with it

560
00:27:14.700 --> 00:27:16.440
because it's what was in the script.

561
00:27:16.440 --> 00:27:20.099
And it does present the cybermen as horrible and uncompromising.

562
00:27:20.220 --> 00:27:23.339
But I actually think that Stratton and Bates do that really

563
00:27:23.339 --> 00:27:27.599
effectively, having to Littton's 2 policeman in the cyber

564
00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:29.160
conversion cubicle.

565
00:27:29.220 --> 00:27:29.880
Is that who they are?

566
00:27:29.940 --> 00:27:30.539
Yeah, yeah.

567
00:27:31.140 --> 00:27:32.880
They're in there in episode one.

568
00:27:32.940 --> 00:27:33.779
That's really effective.

569
00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:39.059
Griffiths, who is played by Brian Glover, the bald guy, who's

570
00:27:39.059 --> 00:27:39.420
hilarious.

571
00:27:39.480 --> 00:27:40.740
He's wonderful.

572
00:27:40.740 --> 00:27:42.180
Getting a bit rough.

573
00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:42.779
Is it?

574
00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:44.220
I mean, that is one of the lines.

575
00:27:44.279 --> 00:27:48.480
I like the moment where the 1st guy who gets killed by the sidemen

576
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:53.160
accuses Brian Glover's character of being allergic to nylon and he

577
00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:54.299
goes, no, I'm not.

578
00:27:54.359 --> 00:27:56.640
And, you know, there are a few really silly lines.

579
00:27:56.700 --> 00:28:00.900
And Brian Glover is kind of wasted on this story, but he is really

580
00:28:00.900 --> 00:28:02.880
funny. he's terrific.

581
00:28:02.940 --> 00:28:04.259
He gets some really funny lines.

582
00:28:04.380 --> 00:28:07.680
Yeah, I particularly like, you said you were from Fulham.

583
00:28:07.740 --> 00:28:08.400
Yes, yeah.

584
00:28:08.460 --> 00:28:11.400
Instead of Rifton 5 or something.

585
00:28:11.460 --> 00:28:15.599
That's some pain who's the member of the gang who gets killed in

586
00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:17.339
the sewers by the side men.

587
00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:19.680
The other member of the gang, of course, Mr. Russell, the

588
00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:22.079
undercover policeman, is Terry Malloy.

589
00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:25.440
And I love his death. when he gets hit on the neck and then has to

590
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:27.359
do that staggering thing into position.

591
00:28:27.420 --> 00:28:29.039
I just burst out.

592
00:28:29.099 --> 00:28:31.680
I just love it Do you know why he had to stagger into position?

593
00:28:31.740 --> 00:28:34.920
Oh, was it something to do with the fact that's where they needed

594
00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:36.960
it for the next episode so they wouldn't have to pay him anything

595
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:37.740
for the next episode?

596
00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:38.940
They could drag the body off.

597
00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:40.019
That was part of it.

598
00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:42.059
The other part was where he falls.

599
00:28:42.119 --> 00:28:45.119
He covers the chord leading to the console.

600
00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:50.279
And not just that as he stumbles and the camera follows him, he is

601
00:28:50.279 --> 00:28:51.960
always covering that chord.

602
00:28:52.019 --> 00:28:53.579
So they had to take that shot a few times.

603
00:28:53.640 --> 00:28:57.420
The reason we have Terry Malloy here as Russell, who played Davros

604
00:28:57.420 --> 00:29:01.079
in Resurrection of the Daleks, director Matthew Robinson, who

605
00:29:01.079 --> 00:29:03.420
directed that story as well, was so impressed with his

606
00:29:03.420 --> 00:29:03.960
performance.

607
00:29:04.019 --> 00:29:06.839
He said to Terry, the next time I have something on.

608
00:29:06.900 --> 00:29:10.440
I'm going to put you in there in a role where we can see your face

609
00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:13.859
because your performance is so magnificent but it's even better

610
00:29:13.859 --> 00:29:14.400
with your face.

611
00:29:14.460 --> 00:29:17.400
So he gave him this role here.

612
00:29:17.460 --> 00:29:21.839
Of course, Maurice Colburn is back and in a way that won't quite

613
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:23.160
work at the end of the season.

614
00:29:23.220 --> 00:29:27.539
The production of this story is structured so that most of episode

615
00:29:27.539 --> 00:29:31.140
one happens on earth and most of episode 2 happens on Telos.

616
00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:34.799
And they structured the studio sessions in the same way.

617
00:29:34.859 --> 00:29:38.099
So that way Terry Malloy was only required for the 1st studio

618
00:29:38.099 --> 00:29:42.539
session, and the crayons, who had really complex makeup, were only

619
00:29:42.539 --> 00:29:44.160
required in the 2nd studio session.

620
00:29:44.220 --> 00:29:50.880
It's a good example of sort of synergy for once between the script

621
00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:54.420
department and the production department to say we're going to

622
00:29:54.420 --> 00:29:58.619
write a script that lends itself to being easier to shoot.

623
00:29:58.859 --> 00:30:03.539
They also doubled the location record, they managed to double the

624
00:30:03.539 --> 00:30:07.140
location recording time because starting with this season, Doctor

625
00:30:07.140 --> 00:30:09.660
Who started getting money from BBC Enterprises.

626
00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:12.900
Now BBC worldwide, I think, or is it the other way around?

627
00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:15.359
Because of all the international sales.

628
00:30:15.420 --> 00:30:18.359
John Nathan Turner and Jonathan Powell successfully lobbied and

629
00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:18.960
said, well, hold on.

630
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:22.980
BBC worldwide sales are mostly Doctor Who, shouldn't we see some

631
00:30:22.980 --> 00:30:23.519
of that money?

632
00:30:23.579 --> 00:30:26.339
So they were able to increase the location filming budget for

633
00:30:26.339 --> 00:30:26.519
this.

634
00:30:26.940 --> 00:30:29.579
Okay, back to Stratton and Bates.

635
00:30:29.640 --> 00:30:31.859
As I said, I really like them.

636
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:35.700
I know that the subplot doesn't connect with anybody else's.

637
00:30:35.759 --> 00:30:38.279
I would have liked Perry and the doctor to have met them somehow

638
00:30:38.279 --> 00:30:41.819
if she got out onto the surface, but it is something that I don't

639
00:30:41.819 --> 00:30:44.279
think we've seen very much of before where a lot of where a

640
00:30:44.279 --> 00:30:45.720
subplot doesn't connect with anybody else.

641
00:30:45.779 --> 00:30:50.039
I think that maybe in resurrection of the Daleks, where we don't

642
00:30:50.039 --> 00:30:55.319
get to meet styles and their suicide mission to destroy the thing

643
00:30:55.319 --> 00:30:59.759
but at least that does actually have some impact on the plot

644
00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:04.140
whereas, of course, Stratton and Bates and Brian Glover's

645
00:31:04.140 --> 00:31:08.220
character arrive at the time machine thing and the desk get killed

646
00:31:08.220 --> 00:31:09.660
and the whole thing goes nowhere.

647
00:31:09.720 --> 00:31:10.799
That's true.

648
00:31:10.859 --> 00:31:13.200
The fact is they're trying, they're trying to get up there.

649
00:31:13.259 --> 00:31:16.380
We think that they're going to get there, but in all respects, as

650
00:31:16.380 --> 00:31:19.140
someone actually know what's going on, and then it's, you know

651
00:31:19.140 --> 00:31:22.140
they are killed at that point, which is utterly tragic, and it

652
00:31:22.140 --> 00:31:23.279
does seem to go nowhere.

653
00:31:23.339 --> 00:31:24.359
But I don't have a problem with it.

654
00:31:24.420 --> 00:31:26.940
I would have thought that the thing to do would have given them

655
00:31:26.940 --> 00:31:29.880
something a little bit more interesting to do when they reach the

656
00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:33.359
time machine, like avert something or do something.

657
00:31:33.420 --> 00:31:34.200
Do you know what I mean?

658
00:31:34.259 --> 00:31:35.220
Have them die heroically.

659
00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:37.680
But the whole thing just seems curiously pointless.

660
00:31:37.740 --> 00:31:42.359
You see, I really like it because it gives you a moment of hope

661
00:31:42.359 --> 00:31:45.059
and then snatches it away.

662
00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:48.839
And Malcolm Clark's music in that bit as they reach the door, it

663
00:31:48.839 --> 00:31:50.160
rises to a hopeful tone.

664
00:31:50.220 --> 00:31:51.779
They open the door, there's cybermen there.

665
00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:54.539
They get gunned down, they fall towards camera.

666
00:31:54.599 --> 00:31:55.200
It is horrible.

667
00:31:55.500 --> 00:31:59.880
But I do find it clever because as a child, I remember being

668
00:31:59.880 --> 00:32:02.460
really shocked by that moment and I thought they were going to get

669
00:32:02.460 --> 00:32:02.640
away.

670
00:32:03.420 --> 00:32:06.299
It's a kind of say word thing though.

671
00:32:06.359 --> 00:32:07.319
Do you know what I mean?

672
00:32:07.380 --> 00:32:10.859
Like, Saywood thinks that just killing characters is somehow

673
00:32:10.859 --> 00:32:11.880
edgy.

674
00:32:11.940 --> 00:32:15.539
And he showed that in resurrection of the Daleks, but I think it's

675
00:32:15.539 --> 00:32:17.160
just kind of lazy and boring.

676
00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:20.640
Yeah, I know you've been saying for quite a while now that Saywood

677
00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:22.799
sort of writes the same story 4 times.

678
00:32:23.099 --> 00:32:26.099
Well, say would rights or commissions, the same story 4 times.

679
00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:29.160
So Earthshock, Warriors of the Deep, Resurrection of the Daleks

680
00:32:29.160 --> 00:32:30.180
and Attack of the Sidemen.

681
00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:32.640
I think Attack of the Sidemen is actually the most effective of

682
00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:35.339
all of them because Stratenham Bates, as you say, have no impact

683
00:32:35.339 --> 00:32:40.079
on the plot, but at least for me, I was sympathising and

684
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:43.920
interested with their characters, despite the fact that

685
00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:47.880
objectively, I can look back on it and say, oh, you know, there's

686
00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:50.339
no real point there, but subjectively, when I'm watching, I'm

687
00:32:50.339 --> 00:32:51.839
interested in what happens to these people.

688
00:32:52.140 --> 00:32:57.779
Speaking of people in the story, who um, as a child, I didn't

689
00:32:57.779 --> 00:33:00.180
think how much character, but as an adult, I actually listened to

690
00:33:00.180 --> 00:33:02.759
their dialogue, and there's some really witty lines in there, are

691
00:33:02.759 --> 00:33:03.960
the cryons themselves.

692
00:33:04.019 --> 00:33:05.640
Like, hello, I'm the doctor.

693
00:33:05.700 --> 00:33:09.059
Unless you help us, you won't be for very much longer.

694
00:33:09.180 --> 00:33:11.279
I think they're really great.

695
00:33:11.279 --> 00:33:15.539
And I know some people, for instance, have raised the point that

696
00:33:15.539 --> 00:33:19.799
how could this race who require subzero temperatures evolve on a

697
00:33:19.799 --> 00:33:21.960
planet where, where they're out in the open, they die?

698
00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:27.539
Well, we just had a run of 45 degree days in Sydney, dear listener

699
00:33:27.539 --> 00:33:28.680
and so I can tell you.

700
00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:31.140
Planets can get warmer.

701
00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:32.700
Remember the planet Aridius?

702
00:33:32.759 --> 00:33:38.160
And certainly we can infer that perhaps even the cybermen had

703
00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:40.140
something to do with the changing weather on their planet.

704
00:33:40.200 --> 00:33:44.039
You know, people ask, how can we have a race that require

705
00:33:44.039 --> 00:33:45.960
refrigerated cities to live in?

706
00:33:46.019 --> 00:33:49.259
Well, walk into any shopping mall or any public building.

707
00:33:49.319 --> 00:33:50.819
We have refrigerated cities.

708
00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:52.140
We have air conditioning now.

709
00:33:52.200 --> 00:33:56.160
And it's a palpable difference in the middle of summer.

710
00:33:56.220 --> 00:33:59.640
Walking into an air conditioned building and walking outside, not

711
00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:01.500
so much that we will steam to death outside.

712
00:34:01.559 --> 00:34:03.359
But...

713
00:34:03.359 --> 00:34:04.079
Although we might.

714
00:34:04.140 --> 00:34:06.059
Yes, it's like that at the moment, isn't it?

715
00:34:06.119 --> 00:34:10.019
But, you know, it takes that concept to an extreme, which is what

716
00:34:10.019 --> 00:34:11.099
good sci-fi does.

717
00:34:11.159 --> 00:34:13.139
And there is an attempt.

718
00:34:13.380 --> 00:34:17.519
Possibly not visually, but there is an attempt in terms of

719
00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:21.900
dialogue and performance and characterisation to distinguish the

720
00:34:21.900 --> 00:34:23.400
cryon characters from one another.

721
00:34:23.460 --> 00:34:29.880
I can't tell who any of them are except for flash or something

722
00:34:29.880 --> 00:34:36.900
with whom Colin spends about, what, an hour and 20 minutes in a

723
00:34:36.900 --> 00:34:39.659
room talking about the cybermen's plans.

724
00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:44.519
And like, I think that's very boring and she's someone else who

725
00:34:44.519 --> 00:34:48.179
has been injured and has green slime on her, which is a sort of

726
00:34:48.179 --> 00:34:49.920
feature of, say, with stories too.

727
00:34:49.980 --> 00:34:53.219
Whereas the other ones, I can't tell a part.

728
00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:55.980
And there is a moment where we're supposed to care when one of

729
00:34:55.980 --> 00:35:00.780
them gets gunned down by a cyberman and I, her name's rust or fuss

730
00:35:00.780 --> 00:35:03.179
or something, and I don't care.

731
00:35:03.239 --> 00:35:07.739
And I also have to say that I don't know why the cybermen are the

732
00:35:07.739 --> 00:35:09.480
bad guys and they're the good guys.

733
00:35:09.539 --> 00:35:13.800
And I think there's a real problem and it's an endemic, say, word

734
00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:14.219
problem.

735
00:35:14.280 --> 00:35:19.320
We saw in Caves of Andrazani that there are no good guys that

736
00:35:19.320 --> 00:35:20.340
everyone's bad.

737
00:35:20.460 --> 00:35:22.199
And here it's the same thing.

738
00:35:22.260 --> 00:35:25.739
I mean, if the crayons use the same guns as the cybermen, they

739
00:35:25.739 --> 00:35:30.000
shoot cybermen, cybermen are constantly exploding and bits are

740
00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:35.159
coming off them and, you know, they're hiring mercenaries, I guess

741
00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:37.739
they're the oppressed indigenous species, and that's why we're

742
00:35:37.739 --> 00:35:40.920
supposed to side with them, but none of their behaviour or nothing

743
00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:44.159
that they say indicates that they're morally any different from

744
00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:45.179
the cybermen.

745
00:35:45.239 --> 00:35:50.699
Well, the 2 crayons who deal with Perry and Lytton, one of them is

746
00:35:50.699 --> 00:35:53.340
the one who says, well, we're going to have to destroy Earth, if

747
00:35:53.340 --> 00:35:55.139
you don't move the Tartar will kill you as well.

748
00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:59.340
Whereas the other one then says things like, um, well, we may not

749
00:35:59.340 --> 00:36:02.099
have to destroy the TARS, but we would rather the cybermen didn't

750
00:36:02.099 --> 00:36:02.280
use it.

751
00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:04.679
These people are freedom fighters.

752
00:36:04.739 --> 00:36:07.980
And remember, one science freedom fighters is the other side's

753
00:36:07.980 --> 00:36:08.519
terrorist.

754
00:36:08.639 --> 00:36:14.519
So I think not presenting them as these insipid Ewoks who need to

755
00:36:14.519 --> 00:36:16.199
be protected from the evil empire.

756
00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:20.579
But instead presenting them as people with their own motivations

757
00:36:20.579 --> 00:36:25.380
and war has hardened them and taken away their sympathy, but not

758
00:36:25.380 --> 00:36:28.559
entirely, you know, so we do have them being sympathetic and being

759
00:36:28.559 --> 00:36:32.280
slightly sapphic towards Perry, if we can say that.

760
00:36:32.340 --> 00:36:34.679
Doesn't one of them regret not killing her?

761
00:36:34.739 --> 00:36:38.219
Yes, and the other one sort of chastises her for it.

762
00:36:38.280 --> 00:36:42.659
It's not just people saying, as you well know, Zyboth you're on.

763
00:36:42.780 --> 00:36:47.219
Part of the problem is the makeup makes them all look the same and

764
00:36:47.219 --> 00:36:49.260
the voices all sound the same as well.

765
00:36:49.320 --> 00:36:53.159
If there was more physical delineation between them, you'd be able

766
00:36:53.159 --> 00:36:54.599
to pick up the dialogue more easily.

767
00:36:54.659 --> 00:36:57.000
As I said, I've only realised the difference in dialogue and

768
00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:58.260
characterisation as an adult.

769
00:36:58.440 --> 00:37:01.440
I'm on the same page as you, Brendan, with that.

770
00:37:01.500 --> 00:37:04.380
Like I see all of, I see their different characterisations now

771
00:37:04.380 --> 00:37:05.880
more than I did originally.

772
00:37:05.940 --> 00:37:08.820
I like the fact that, you know, they are the indigenous people

773
00:37:08.820 --> 00:37:12.119
that are having to, they've had to fight these sidemen and now

774
00:37:12.119 --> 00:37:13.980
they're at the point where they will do whatever they need to do

775
00:37:13.980 --> 00:37:15.179
to stop them.

776
00:37:15.300 --> 00:37:19.559
As I said, the show does take an only degree turn, like in the

777
00:37:19.559 --> 00:37:22.800
middle of this story where you've got a big sort of action

778
00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:25.380
adventure, I think, in part one and in episode two.

779
00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:28.019
It's more like, well, Perry's with the crayons and the doctors

780
00:37:28.019 --> 00:37:31.019
trapped in that room and you've got cyber control and you've got

781
00:37:31.019 --> 00:37:31.980
Stratton and Bait.

782
00:37:32.039 --> 00:37:34.619
So it's more 2 handers or whatever it happens to be.

783
00:37:34.679 --> 00:37:38.099
So I think it is jarring in the sense that it does take this

784
00:37:38.099 --> 00:37:38.340
turn.

785
00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:42.300
I love all the stuff with the doctor and flash, especially when

786
00:37:42.300 --> 00:37:46.380
she's talking about the time lord's agent is already at work and

787
00:37:46.380 --> 00:37:50.340
the doctors suddenly comes to the realisation and it's going, oh

788
00:37:50.340 --> 00:37:51.119
like getting really angry.

789
00:37:51.179 --> 00:37:54.420
I love that sequence is one of my favourite sequences of Colin

790
00:37:54.420 --> 00:37:55.260
Baker as the doctor.

791
00:37:55.320 --> 00:37:57.059
I just think he plays it so brilliantly.

792
00:37:57.059 --> 00:38:00.780
And I'm just chuckling away and laughing at what he, like he's

793
00:38:00.780 --> 00:38:02.159
irritation and the way he delivers it.

794
00:38:02.219 --> 00:38:04.860
I think it's a weaker episode than the previous.

795
00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:08.340
And you've picked on flaws, which I think are, are out there for

796
00:38:08.340 --> 00:38:10.679
all to see and have been commented on throughout the ages.

797
00:38:10.739 --> 00:38:15.360
I mean, I remember when Dwim, when this came out on DVD, I think

798
00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:17.519
they gave it 3 out of 10 and just shredded it.

799
00:38:17.579 --> 00:38:19.440
I refuse to watch the story.

800
00:38:19.559 --> 00:38:21.780
I bought the video, but I said, I'm not going to go and watch it

801
00:38:21.780 --> 00:38:25.440
based on what they've just done to it because of the memories I

802
00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:27.659
had as a kid and I waited some time before I watched it.

803
00:38:27.719 --> 00:38:30.179
And Eric Saywood himself.

804
00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:34.920
Like, if you actually watch his documentary on Attack and you

805
00:38:34.920 --> 00:38:37.980
watch his documentary on Revelation of the Daleks, he contradicts

806
00:38:37.980 --> 00:38:41.760
himself, he believes that episode one is a great episode, and then

807
00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:44.219
in one of them, he says episode 2 is a shambles, and the other one

808
00:38:44.219 --> 00:38:47.039
he says, it's better than he thought it was.

809
00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:49.320
And I actually agree with that stance.

810
00:38:49.380 --> 00:38:51.480
I just enjoy episode one so much.

811
00:38:51.539 --> 00:38:54.179
Episode 2 There are all elements that I like.

812
00:38:54.239 --> 00:38:56.940
I do think the blood thing goes far too far, and I believe they

813
00:38:56.940 --> 00:38:59.280
cut it down in the final edit, but it's still too much.

814
00:38:59.340 --> 00:39:03.059
I don't have a problem with the doctor shooting all the cybermen

815
00:39:03.059 --> 00:39:05.460
because he is under attack and he is going to die, right?

816
00:39:05.519 --> 00:39:06.420
He is forced to do that.

817
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:09.900
I think it's a bad choice to put the doctor in that position and

818
00:39:09.900 --> 00:39:10.679
to give him guns.

819
00:39:10.739 --> 00:39:14.159
Ultimately, that's the choice that, say, would keeps making.

820
00:39:14.219 --> 00:39:16.559
And I think, yes, in the long term, it is the wrong choice.

821
00:39:16.619 --> 00:39:21.960
Yeah, but it does lead into, you know, at the end, the doctor does

822
00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:25.860
apologise to the cryons, I'm sorry, and there's empathy there and

823
00:39:25.860 --> 00:39:27.000
I think it's a very powerful moment.

824
00:39:27.059 --> 00:39:28.500
I think it's one of his most powerful moments.

825
00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:31.860
Then in the TARDIS, when he says it didn't go very well.

826
00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:36.239
Again, it's a downbeat ending, but I actually really liked the

827
00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:40.500
fact that he acknowledges the fact that things just fell apart.

828
00:39:40.559 --> 00:39:43.559
You know, there's a scene that's cut, you know, they had another

829
00:39:43.559 --> 00:39:46.559
scene where it was all light and fluffy and that just wouldn't

830
00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:46.739
work.

831
00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:50.039
Yeah, sort of, um, the Tartars console was going to lurch again

832
00:39:50.039 --> 00:39:51.539
and the Apple from earlier was going to fall.

833
00:39:51.599 --> 00:39:53.820
Doctor was going to catch it, take a bite, chuck it to Perry, give

834
00:39:53.820 --> 00:39:55.800
her a smile and a wink like the end of twin dilemma.

835
00:39:55.860 --> 00:39:59.159
And it's like, no, it's much better to see the doctor really

836
00:39:59.159 --> 00:40:01.679
affected by the violence of this story.

837
00:40:01.739 --> 00:40:03.900
Like when he apologises to the cryons.

838
00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:07.739
The crayons response is essentially look, just get off our planet

839
00:40:07.800 --> 00:40:08.340
enough is enough.

840
00:40:08.400 --> 00:40:12.659
Not blaming him, but just this situation is partially because of

841
00:40:12.659 --> 00:40:12.900
you.

842
00:40:13.139 --> 00:40:16.860
Someone, I think, does so well in this story in terms of

843
00:40:16.860 --> 00:40:18.599
performance and in terms of characterisation.

844
00:40:18.659 --> 00:40:23.219
Nicola Bryant is Perry, because in the 1st episode when the doctor

845
00:40:23.219 --> 00:40:27.420
is getting short with her, she's snapping back, like when he's

846
00:40:27.420 --> 00:40:30.599
patronising her about the Halley's comet thing and she's worried

847
00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:33.360
about colliding with it, he says, oh, you're perfectly safe.

848
00:40:33.360 --> 00:40:35.340
And she says, not when you're this bloody close to it.

849
00:40:35.340 --> 00:40:38.820
Because, of course, Halley's comet was approaching in the real

850
00:40:38.820 --> 00:40:43.500
world and people were concerned about it impacting the surface.

851
00:40:43.500 --> 00:40:47.820
Because scientific knowledge about comets wasn't as great then as

852
00:40:47.820 --> 00:40:48.539
it was now.

853
00:40:48.659 --> 00:40:52.500
You know, it was a, it was a minor concern, a childish concern, but

854
00:40:52.500 --> 00:40:54.300
it, it was something people were considering.

855
00:40:54.360 --> 00:40:57.960
And that last scene where she's trying to comfort him.

856
00:40:58.019 --> 00:41:00.119
Yeah, I did like that as well.

857
00:41:00.179 --> 00:41:04.800
I don't understand quite the misjudging Lytton thing because, I

858
00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:08.159
mean, he never met Lytton in Resurrection of the Daleks or barely

859
00:41:08.159 --> 00:41:09.719
interacted with him. that is true.

860
00:41:09.840 --> 00:41:12.059
And, you know, discovering that he's working for the Crayons

861
00:41:12.059 --> 00:41:15.539
instead of working for the cybermen doesn't actually change how

862
00:41:15.539 --> 00:41:16.619
he's behaved.

863
00:41:16.619 --> 00:41:17.519
Do you know what I mean?

864
00:41:17.579 --> 00:41:19.320
And he did used to work for the Daleks.

865
00:41:19.380 --> 00:41:20.820
So I'm not quite sure.

866
00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:24.000
Like, I don't think that I misjudged Lytton thing quite comes

867
00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:24.539
off.

868
00:41:24.599 --> 00:41:29.340
It doesn't quite make sense, but I do like the downbeat ending and

869
00:41:29.340 --> 00:41:34.320
I do like putting Perry in the position where she is, and in fact

870
00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:37.739
she is doing the opposite of what's normally done, where you

871
00:41:37.739 --> 00:41:41.280
expect Colin to be alien and unemotional.

872
00:41:41.340 --> 00:41:46.019
And here it's Perry who has to pull the doctor back and prevent

873
00:41:46.019 --> 00:41:49.320
him from taking Lytton has to tell him to be practical.

874
00:41:49.380 --> 00:41:53.099
Which aligned with Nicola Bryant's 2nd interpretation of the

875
00:41:53.099 --> 00:41:55.260
character, because we've discussed how she did a big character

876
00:41:55.260 --> 00:41:58.920
brief based on Perry being with the 5th doctor and then had to

877
00:41:58.920 --> 00:41:59.820
rewrite that.

878
00:41:59.880 --> 00:42:03.300
And her perspective was after the events of the twin dilemma.

879
00:42:03.360 --> 00:42:04.619
Why would Perry stay with the doctor?

880
00:42:04.679 --> 00:42:08.039
And the conclusion she came to was, he saved my life.

881
00:42:08.099 --> 00:42:08.880
I'm going to save his.

882
00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:13.380
You're right, it's an inversion because the human companions of

883
00:42:13.380 --> 00:42:17.460
the doctor have tended to be, in a way, his moral compass and to

884
00:42:17.460 --> 00:42:19.860
remind him of, if you like, ephemeral morality.

885
00:42:20.039 --> 00:42:25.019
Whereas, Perry's thing here is to remind him, okay, yes, a lot of

886
00:42:25.019 --> 00:42:30.059
people have died, but we've saved the earth and we have defeated a

887
00:42:30.059 --> 00:42:30.960
greater evil.

888
00:42:31.019 --> 00:42:34.679
She doesn't try to say, oh, all those deaths were worth it, but

889
00:42:34.679 --> 00:42:37.860
she just says to him, you know, we have had a victory.

890
00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:39.119
We have had a win here.

891
00:42:39.239 --> 00:42:41.639
Getting back to something you said earlier, Todd.

892
00:42:41.699 --> 00:42:45.239
Even though it is locking the doctor up in a cupboard while the

893
00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:46.199
plot happens around him.

894
00:42:46.260 --> 00:42:48.840
I love his scenes with Flast.

895
00:42:48.960 --> 00:42:54.960
It harks back to Sarah Jane with Alpha Centauri and coming to know

896
00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:57.719
and respect the alien who looks so different to you.

897
00:42:57.780 --> 00:43:00.179
And Flash sort of flirts with the doctor.

898
00:43:00.239 --> 00:43:01.440
It is horribly uncomfortable.

899
00:43:01.500 --> 00:43:04.800
Not with her, but with the idea of flirting.

900
00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:08.699
And at the end, when he gives her the lance to blow up the vast or

901
00:43:08.699 --> 00:43:10.860
most precious substance in the universe, et cetera.

902
00:43:10.920 --> 00:43:16.679
The tenderness he shows there realising that, when he then says, oh

903
00:43:16.679 --> 00:43:18.659
well, I'll call the guard over, but hold on, how are you going to

904
00:43:18.659 --> 00:43:21.599
get out of here, he then realises she intends to sacrifice

905
00:43:21.599 --> 00:43:22.079
herself.

906
00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:26.099
And as you said earlier, Colin is great with that tender stuff and

907
00:43:26.099 --> 00:43:29.280
bringing it down really low and telling her she's very brave and

908
00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:31.679
then running off and doing what he has to do.

909
00:43:31.739 --> 00:43:36.900
That Vastille is a remnant of an earlier script, right?

910
00:43:36.960 --> 00:43:40.739
And it's unfortunate that budget cuts prevented this from being in

911
00:43:40.739 --> 00:43:43.920
the final script because the idea was that the final showdown

912
00:43:43.920 --> 00:43:47.820
wasn't going to happen in cybercontrol, which is about the size of

913
00:43:47.820 --> 00:43:49.019
an average double bedroom.

914
00:43:49.079 --> 00:43:53.039
It was going to happen inside Halle's comet.

915
00:43:53.099 --> 00:43:55.559
The cyberman were going to load Halle's comet with all the

916
00:43:55.559 --> 00:43:56.159
Bastille.

917
00:43:56.159 --> 00:43:59.639
To create an even bigger explosion on Earth.

918
00:43:59.699 --> 00:44:03.659
And the doctor was going to follow them in the TARDIS with the

919
00:44:03.659 --> 00:44:06.840
cryons and it was going to be cryons versus cybermen inside

920
00:44:06.840 --> 00:44:09.300
Halle's comet while the doctor diffuses the bomb.

921
00:44:09.420 --> 00:44:11.099
You see, that would have been great.

922
00:44:11.159 --> 00:44:14.579
Saving the earth that's happened here has been saving it from word

923
00:44:14.579 --> 00:44:15.960
peril by talking.

924
00:44:16.019 --> 00:44:16.679
Yeah.

925
00:44:16.679 --> 00:44:18.300
And that's really boring.

926
00:44:18.360 --> 00:44:22.079
And so the resolution of the plot involves lots of people shooting

927
00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:26.639
one another with guns, but the idea that there would be an actual

928
00:44:26.639 --> 00:44:31.920
like real tangible threat to the earth would have been a vast

929
00:44:31.920 --> 00:44:35.699
improvement over, you know, a bunch of people stumbling around a

930
00:44:35.699 --> 00:44:38.639
quarry and then a bunch of people shooting one another with cyber

931
00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:39.000
guns.

932
00:44:39.719 --> 00:44:42.599
I like the idea that you've mentioned there.

933
00:44:42.659 --> 00:44:45.119
Budgetary wise, I just said that they could do it.

934
00:44:45.179 --> 00:44:47.940
So they're forced to have a bunch of people in a quarry and a

935
00:44:47.940 --> 00:44:49.260
bunch of people inside of control.

936
00:44:49.320 --> 00:44:51.719
And such are the budgets.

937
00:44:51.719 --> 00:44:53.219
All valid points.

938
00:44:53.280 --> 00:44:56.699
I can see where you're coming from with the criticism that say

939
00:44:56.699 --> 00:44:59.760
with writing and the structure of things and that sort of thing.

940
00:44:59.820 --> 00:45:03.480
And uh, I just adore this story.

941
00:45:03.539 --> 00:45:06.360
I'm sorry, listeners, I just really do.

942
00:45:06.420 --> 00:45:07.920
This is in my top 25 of all time.

943
00:45:07.980 --> 00:45:10.079
I just love Colin.

944
00:45:10.139 --> 00:45:10.800
I love Nicola.

945
00:45:10.860 --> 00:45:12.360
I love I just love the humour.

946
00:45:12.420 --> 00:45:16.079
The violence stuff. doesn't worry me.

947
00:45:16.139 --> 00:45:20.400
The crayons are just hilarious in what they do and what they

948
00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:21.179
threaten.

949
00:45:21.239 --> 00:45:24.360
And, you know, yes, this stupid thing, like the tombs look

950
00:45:24.360 --> 00:45:27.000
different and you've got, why are, you know, why don't we have

951
00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:28.320
those dark coloured cybermen?

952
00:45:28.380 --> 00:45:28.800
don't understand.

953
00:45:28.860 --> 00:45:32.099
Why are the vivification process?

954
00:45:32.159 --> 00:45:33.179
Why is it all going wrong?

955
00:45:33.239 --> 00:45:36.000
Like, I mean, I don't know, but I don't care.

956
00:45:36.059 --> 00:45:37.380
Like, I really don't.

957
00:45:37.440 --> 00:45:40.079
I just sit there just enjoying it.

958
00:45:40.139 --> 00:45:44.340
And I know that most people won't, and most people will criticise

959
00:45:44.340 --> 00:45:44.579
it.

960
00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:46.739
But that's okay.

961
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:49.860
This is going to be a really interesting season listeners, because

962
00:45:49.860 --> 00:45:51.360
I'm just going to be saying every story.

963
00:45:51.420 --> 00:45:52.739
Oh, I just love this.

964
00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:55.860
Despite whatever people say.

965
00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:59.820
I do think the biggest problem with this story, for me anyway, is

966
00:45:59.820 --> 00:46:01.679
the violence of the last 15 minutes.

967
00:46:01.739 --> 00:46:04.500
But aside from that, I find it really enjoyable as well.

968
00:46:04.559 --> 00:46:05.340
I always have.

969
00:46:05.400 --> 00:46:06.300
I enjoyed it as a kid.

970
00:46:06.360 --> 00:46:07.800
I enjoy it as an adult.

971
00:46:07.860 --> 00:46:12.360
As an adult, much like Eric Saywood's other scripts, it raises a

972
00:46:12.360 --> 00:46:15.119
lot of pacing questions and plotting questions.

973
00:46:15.119 --> 00:46:15.900
Why is it is here?

974
00:46:15.960 --> 00:46:16.619
Why is that there?

975
00:46:16.679 --> 00:46:19.139
Why do the side men even bother to have a time machine?

976
00:46:19.260 --> 00:46:20.400
Who did they nick it from?

977
00:46:20.460 --> 00:46:22.199
Why do they never use it, et cetera?

978
00:46:22.260 --> 00:46:24.780
It's off the planet at the beginning of episode 2 doing

979
00:46:24.780 --> 00:46:25.139
something.

980
00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:26.219
What has it been doing?

981
00:46:26.280 --> 00:46:31.739
But aside from all that, I can watch this and just in the moment

982
00:46:31.739 --> 00:46:32.159
enjoy it.

983
00:46:32.219 --> 00:46:33.780
I only question it after I've finished.

984
00:46:35.639 --> 00:46:38.039
I just think it's really tired.

985
00:46:39.900 --> 00:46:42.480
That's so...

986
00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:43.920
Take a bottle, dear listener.

987
00:46:43.980 --> 00:46:47.579
Speaking of which, of course, Perry says in episode, I think it's

988
00:46:47.579 --> 00:46:50.219
in episode one, these tunnels all look the same to me.

989
00:46:50.280 --> 00:46:53.340
So listeners, you need to look out for those variations throughout

990
00:46:53.340 --> 00:46:54.900
the season. need to take a drink.

991
00:46:54.960 --> 00:46:57.900
I'd like to talk a bit about the ratings for this story, if I

992
00:46:57.900 --> 00:46:58.079
may.

993
00:46:58.139 --> 00:46:59.159
I think that's important.

994
00:46:59.219 --> 00:47:02.460
So 8.900000 viewers tuned into episode one.

995
00:47:02.519 --> 00:47:06.000
7.200000 tuned into episode two.

996
00:47:06.059 --> 00:47:08.579
Doctor Who is back on Saturdays?

997
00:47:08.639 --> 00:47:12.420
That's a drop of 1700000 between episodes.

998
00:47:12.539 --> 00:47:15.059
Cheers, you know, a substantial amount.

999
00:47:15.420 --> 00:47:20.340
And of course, episode one was 71st, episode 2 was 104.

1000
00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:25.079
Now, at the end of last season, just I just want to do a few

1001
00:47:25.079 --> 00:47:25.860
comparisons here.

1002
00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:27.719
Colin's last story.

1003
00:47:27.780 --> 00:47:30.420
Got 7.67.476.3.

1004
00:47:30.780 --> 00:47:35.699
But in terms of the actual, you know, placings of those episodes

1005
00:47:35.699 --> 00:47:40.320
like the 6.300000 for episode 4 of the twin dilemma came 67th, the

1006
00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:43.079
previous episode came 59th, right?

1007
00:47:43.139 --> 00:47:45.719
So you can get 7000000 viewers and come 59th.

1008
00:47:45.780 --> 00:47:48.179
We can get 8900000 and come 74.

1009
00:47:48.179 --> 00:47:52.619
And then, like if you look at something like Warriors of the Deep

1010
00:47:52.619 --> 00:47:54.360
going out the 1st 2 weeks of January.

1011
00:47:54.420 --> 00:47:57.840
It got like 7.67.5, 51st, 52nd.

1012
00:47:57.900 --> 00:48:00.719
But by the end of that story, it's dropped down to 6.3.

1013
00:48:00.900 --> 00:48:03.960
So it loses about 1300000 viewers over the course of that story.

1014
00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:06.239
And so here there's a big drop again.

1015
00:48:06.360 --> 00:48:12.059
Obviously, it's built as a new season, a new doctor, and I know

1016
00:48:12.059 --> 00:48:14.880
that at the time, and I remember it in the papers here, it was all

1017
00:48:14.880 --> 00:48:17.940
about the fact that the Tartars could be changing shape for the

1018
00:48:17.940 --> 00:48:18.360
1st time.

1019
00:48:18.420 --> 00:48:22.500
So I think there's a curiosity factor of people tuning in for that

1020
00:48:22.500 --> 00:48:23.159
1st episode.

1021
00:48:23.219 --> 00:48:25.079
I mean, 7.2 million.

1022
00:48:25.139 --> 00:48:28.739
Surprise, surprise, is the average viewership of Doctor Who over

1023
00:48:28.739 --> 00:48:29.400
the last 2 years.

1024
00:48:29.460 --> 00:48:32.039
So it's not like anything's different.

1025
00:48:32.099 --> 00:48:33.599
What is different?

1026
00:48:33.659 --> 00:48:35.219
is the competition.

1027
00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:36.599
Yes.

1028
00:48:37.079 --> 00:48:40.320
And episode one is not up against the competition.

1029
00:48:40.380 --> 00:48:44.099
Episode 2 is up against the competition, which is the A team.

1030
00:48:44.159 --> 00:48:44.460
Yep.

1031
00:48:44.519 --> 00:48:49.139
Now the A-team, for younger listeners, was a phenomenon between

1032
00:48:49.139 --> 00:48:52.679
983 and about 986, it was huge.

1033
00:48:52.739 --> 00:48:56.340
We didn't have the internet, we didn't have next day downloads and

1034
00:48:56.340 --> 00:48:58.619
a lot of people didn't have VCRs even.

1035
00:48:58.679 --> 00:49:00.539
So you had to watch it when it came out.

1036
00:49:00.599 --> 00:49:04.079
And often it would be like 6 months or 9 months after the US.

1037
00:49:04.139 --> 00:49:08.699
It started Mr. T, George Papard, the face man, I can't remember

1038
00:49:08.699 --> 00:49:13.440
his name, and Mr. Broccoli from Next Generation, who's not yet Mr

1039
00:49:13.440 --> 00:49:13.920
Broccoli.

1040
00:49:13.980 --> 00:49:18.719
And so, I mean, I remember in our household, we watched the AT.

1041
00:49:18.780 --> 00:49:24.059
I would really love to know what the viewership on ITV was between

1042
00:49:24.059 --> 00:49:26.460
episode one and episode two, like what happened?

1043
00:49:26.519 --> 00:49:30.059
What did ITV against get against episode one of Attack?

1044
00:49:30.119 --> 00:49:32.219
And then with the AT coming back?

1045
00:49:32.280 --> 00:49:33.719
Was it this one. 17 million?

1046
00:49:33.780 --> 00:49:34.559
Was it more than that?

1047
00:49:34.619 --> 00:49:36.420
But it was a phenomenon.

1048
00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:37.860
And unlike Buck Rogers.

1049
00:49:37.920 --> 00:49:39.480
Which was really terrible.

1050
00:49:39.539 --> 00:49:43.139
And only sort of was like 6 months and then it sort of died and

1051
00:49:43.139 --> 00:49:46.320
listeners will remember, of course, when we were talking about

1052
00:49:46.320 --> 00:49:50.460
season 18, that's what Tom went up against and it took, you know

1053
00:49:50.460 --> 00:49:53.880
20 episodes for the show to rise above 5000000 and it was placing

1054
00:49:53.880 --> 00:49:56.579
like 130th, 126th on the chart.

1055
00:49:56.639 --> 00:49:57.480
Right?

1056
00:49:57.539 --> 00:50:00.780
So you're losing a 1000000 viewers, I think, just by jumping

1057
00:50:00.780 --> 00:50:01.139
across.

1058
00:50:01.260 --> 00:50:02.340
Yeah, right?

1059
00:50:02.400 --> 00:50:04.739
I don't necessarily think it's the episode one.

1060
00:50:04.800 --> 00:50:07.199
If any of an episode was going to lose viewers.

1061
00:50:07.260 --> 00:50:09.119
To me, it would be episode 2 because you've got all that word

1062
00:50:09.119 --> 00:50:09.659
peril.

1063
00:50:09.719 --> 00:50:11.639
And everybody's trapped in rooms.

1064
00:50:11.699 --> 00:50:13.079
Yeah, yeah.

1065
00:50:13.139 --> 00:50:16.860
So there is a kind of narrative which is people are put off my

1066
00:50:16.860 --> 00:50:17.699
twin dilemma.

1067
00:50:17.760 --> 00:50:20.579
They tune in to see what the new doctors like in episode one and

1068
00:50:20.579 --> 00:50:22.500
then a quarter of the audience never comes back.

1069
00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:26.280
But it sounds to me that that's an unfair characterisation of

1070
00:50:26.280 --> 00:50:30.179
what's going on and that it doesn't take into account what's

1071
00:50:30.179 --> 00:50:31.380
happening on ITV.

1072
00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:35.039
And there's no doubt at all that the A team has a really much

1073
00:50:35.039 --> 00:50:39.780
broader appeal, in the sense that it's not niche cult science

1074
00:50:39.780 --> 00:50:42.360
fiction, it's sort of fairly straightforward action.

1075
00:50:42.420 --> 00:50:45.300
It appeals to people who you might have thought of as the standard

1076
00:50:45.300 --> 00:50:46.260
Doctor Who audience.

1077
00:50:46.320 --> 00:50:49.199
It's got guns, it's got, you know, car chases, it's got

1078
00:50:49.199 --> 00:50:49.739
helicopters.

1079
00:50:49.860 --> 00:50:53.039
My sisters were like, they loved Mr. T in the face, man.

1080
00:50:53.099 --> 00:50:54.239
My sisters were watching this.

1081
00:50:54.300 --> 00:50:55.860
It's funny too, isn't it?

1082
00:50:55.920 --> 00:50:59.099
Because you've got, and I, as I can't remember the actor's name

1083
00:50:59.099 --> 00:51:02.400
you've got Starbuck from Battle Star Galactica as the hearthrob

1084
00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:04.199
and he was a very handsome man.

1085
00:51:04.260 --> 00:51:04.679
You know what?

1086
00:51:04.739 --> 00:51:05.880
He still quite a handsome man.

1087
00:51:05.940 --> 00:51:07.320
There's a shot of him a few years ago.

1088
00:51:07.380 --> 00:51:08.400
Dirk Benedict.

1089
00:51:08.400 --> 00:51:11.340
Dirk Benedict. thank you And can I say Dwight Schultz as well?

1090
00:51:11.400 --> 00:51:12.239
Yes, yes.

1091
00:51:12.300 --> 00:51:12.840
Thank you, Nathan.

1092
00:51:13.139 --> 00:51:15.239
I just can't remember.

1093
00:51:15.360 --> 00:51:20.099
There's a photo a few years ago of Dirk Benedict and I'm terrible

1094
00:51:20.099 --> 00:51:20.760
with names today.

1095
00:51:20.820 --> 00:51:22.619
Starbucks from the new Battlestar Galactica.

1096
00:51:22.679 --> 00:51:27.239
Katie Sackoff, in a Starbucks, drinking Starbucks, smoking cigars

1097
00:51:27.239 --> 00:51:30.059
together, and she put it out on her Twitter, Starbucks and

1098
00:51:30.059 --> 00:51:31.679
Starbucks, drinking Starbucks in Starbucks.

1099
00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:35.519
And he's still a really handsome man.

1100
00:51:35.579 --> 00:51:39.000
So, you know, you've got, and this is stereotypical, of course, but

1101
00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:40.860
this is how people thought of television in the 80s.

1102
00:51:41.219 --> 00:51:45.480
You've got the action for the boys and you've got the attractive

1103
00:51:45.480 --> 00:51:46.559
man for the girls.

1104
00:51:46.619 --> 00:51:50.639
And to be fair, this is kind of what JNT thought of Doctor Who.

1105
00:51:50.699 --> 00:51:54.719
You've got to have Nicola in a leotard and shorts for the dads.

1106
00:51:54.780 --> 00:51:57.480
Oh, that outfit is awful, isn't it?

1107
00:51:57.539 --> 00:52:00.059
She was so happy to get into the boiler suit.

1108
00:52:00.059 --> 00:52:02.639
That's hilarious, like the cyberleaders says, oh, we have done

1109
00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:04.199
what you've asked and they put her in a new thing.

1110
00:52:04.260 --> 00:52:07.739
Like, he's very fashion consciously for his captives, you know?

1111
00:52:07.800 --> 00:52:12.719
It's a few sizes too big, and apparently the costume designer said

1112
00:52:12.719 --> 00:52:14.940
to Nicola, oh, we're really sorry. a few sizes too big.

1113
00:52:15.000 --> 00:52:15.960
No, it's fine, really.

1114
00:52:16.019 --> 00:52:19.860
It's fine because she really got sick of the leotards.

1115
00:52:19.920 --> 00:52:23.519
In terms of what people thought of this episode, even with the

1116
00:52:23.519 --> 00:52:26.579
huge drop in ratings, the appreciation index went up 4 points.

1117
00:52:26.639 --> 00:52:28.440
What, between episode one and two?

1118
00:52:28.559 --> 00:52:29.699
Episode one was 61.

1119
00:52:29.880 --> 00:52:33.480
Episode 2 was 65 And it's going to hover in the 60s throughout the

1120
00:52:33.480 --> 00:52:36.539
whole season, whereas some of Pete's later ones were in the high

1121
00:52:36.539 --> 00:52:37.139
50s.

1122
00:52:37.199 --> 00:52:39.059
So people are enjoying the show.

1123
00:52:39.119 --> 00:52:41.699
The people who are tuning in are enjoying the show.

1124
00:52:41.760 --> 00:52:46.619
I find that audience appreciation things from classic series are

1125
00:52:46.619 --> 00:52:50.639
just so over the place that you really, I personally think you

1126
00:52:50.639 --> 00:52:52.920
can't take a lot of stock in the most of the time because they

1127
00:52:52.920 --> 00:52:54.480
just, they just vary.

1128
00:52:54.539 --> 00:52:55.739
It left right and centre.

1129
00:52:55.800 --> 00:52:56.820
You just go, what the hell, you know?

1130
00:52:56.880 --> 00:53:00.659
And particularly as the show stops being a family show and starts

1131
00:53:00.659 --> 00:53:04.019
being cult science fiction, you would expect the only people still

1132
00:53:04.019 --> 00:53:08.460
watching to be, you know, anorex who enjoy cult science fiction.

1133
00:53:08.519 --> 00:53:09.960
I think part of the problem.

1134
00:53:10.019 --> 00:53:14.940
And it's not specifically Saywood's fault. is that it's very hard

1135
00:53:14.940 --> 00:53:19.320
for a script editor to edit their own work because, especially

1136
00:53:19.320 --> 00:53:22.380
when you are up against it, as Doctor Who scriptwriters always

1137
00:53:22.380 --> 00:53:23.760
were, there was never enough time.

1138
00:53:23.820 --> 00:53:28.679
You are not going to spot the mistakes until way down the line

1139
00:53:28.679 --> 00:53:29.820
possibly after production.

1140
00:53:29.880 --> 00:53:32.519
Because you've written it and you're too close to it.

1141
00:53:32.579 --> 00:53:35.519
And I know when I've written scripts, occasionally I've come back

1142
00:53:35.519 --> 00:53:38.639
to them, and I've left out a crucial line because it's been so

1143
00:53:38.639 --> 00:53:42.300
vivid in my head, I've forgotten to write it on the page because I

1144
00:53:42.300 --> 00:53:43.199
don't think it's needed.

1145
00:53:43.260 --> 00:53:44.940
And then I come back to it.

1146
00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:46.800
It was like, well, hold on, that's that's the whole message of

1147
00:53:46.800 --> 00:53:47.159
this play.

1148
00:53:47.219 --> 00:53:48.239
That's the whole point of this scene.

1149
00:53:48.300 --> 00:53:52.619
When Douglas Adams was writing for the show, Graham Williams had

1150
00:53:52.619 --> 00:53:55.199
experiences a script editor, so they sort of bounced off each

1151
00:53:55.199 --> 00:53:55.860
other that way.

1152
00:53:55.980 --> 00:54:00.239
Christopher Hamilton bid mead when he was writing for the show.

1153
00:54:00.300 --> 00:54:03.960
I mean, you know, we've praised Legopolos and Castra Volver, but

1154
00:54:03.960 --> 00:54:07.739
in terms of structure, because they have such great ideas, it

1155
00:54:07.739 --> 00:54:10.440
doesn't matter if they're a bit strangely structured.

1156
00:54:10.559 --> 00:54:14.820
Because attack of the cybermen is a really quite a straightforward

1157
00:54:14.820 --> 00:54:18.300
idea, despite the backflips with continuity, we do have that info

1158
00:54:18.300 --> 00:54:20.219
dump scene, but that gives you everything you need to know.

1159
00:54:20.340 --> 00:54:24.059
Because it's got such a simple structure, it really needs to be

1160
00:54:24.059 --> 00:54:24.900
clear in what it's doing.

1161
00:54:25.500 --> 00:54:29.280
It's unfortunate that it isn't, but I don't think it's, I don't

1162
00:54:29.280 --> 00:54:32.519
think it's a deal breaker in the same way that the twin dilemma

1163
00:54:32.519 --> 00:54:32.760
was.

1164
00:54:54.239 --> 00:54:59.039
Well, that's all the time we have for the, uh, orange gravel pits

1165
00:54:59.039 --> 00:54:59.579
of Telos.

1166
00:54:59.699 --> 00:55:02.699
Uh, we are trying to take off, but unfortunately, we're out of

1167
00:55:02.699 --> 00:55:06.960
Ziton 7, so we're going to have to pay a visit to Martin Jarvis on

1168
00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:08.579
vengeance on Varos.

1169
00:55:08.639 --> 00:55:09.900
Do come back next week for that.

1170
00:55:10.019 --> 00:55:13.019
And don't forget to subscribe on our website, flight through

1171
00:55:13.019 --> 00:55:16.199
entirety.sexy, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and

1172
00:55:16.199 --> 00:55:18.360
at FTE podcast on Twitter.

1173
00:55:18.420 --> 00:55:19.860
Over on Bondfinger.

1174
00:55:19.920 --> 00:55:23.519
We've recently wrapped up the Roger Moore era with a view to a

1175
00:55:23.519 --> 00:55:28.019
kill during which we drank 4 bottles of wine between the 4 of us

1176
00:55:28.139 --> 00:55:29.039
not each.

1177
00:55:29.099 --> 00:55:29.820
Not each.

1178
00:55:29.880 --> 00:55:33.719
So you can find out for yourself how incredibly dangerous

1179
00:55:33.719 --> 00:55:36.119
saltwater is over on bondfinger.com.

1180
00:55:36.179 --> 00:55:38.639
Bond finger on Facebook and iTunes and Bond finger cast on

1181
00:55:38.639 --> 00:55:39.000
Twitter.

1182
00:55:39.059 --> 00:55:42.780
I'm going to take a moment for self-promotion because a book I

1183
00:55:42.780 --> 00:55:46.199
have written for has recently come out called Hating to Love

1184
00:55:46.199 --> 00:55:50.039
reassessing the 52 worst Doctor Who stories of all time.

1185
00:55:50.099 --> 00:55:54.599
In that book I've written essays on stories such as Time Flight

1186
00:55:54.599 --> 00:55:57.119
The Beast Below, and Inferno.

1187
00:55:57.179 --> 00:55:58.739
What's Inferno doing in there?

1188
00:55:58.800 --> 00:56:01.139
Well, you'll have to buy the book and find out, and there will be

1189
00:56:01.139 --> 00:56:03.059
a link for that in the show notes.

1190
00:56:03.119 --> 00:56:07.500
I'm also in that book along with many other talented podcasters

1191
00:56:07.500 --> 00:56:08.519
including J.R.

1192
00:56:08.519 --> 00:56:09.900
Southall of Bluebox.

1193
00:56:09.960 --> 00:56:13.860
Until then, may none of your hometically sealed heads not properly

1194
00:56:13.860 --> 00:56:15.599
fit the girlfriend of Prince Andrew.

1195
00:56:15.659 --> 00:56:16.860
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1196
00:56:16.920 --> 00:56:17.820
Good night.

1197
00:56:17.880 --> 00:56:23.159
See you soon That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd

1198
00:56:23.159 --> 00:56:24.900
Beelby, Nathan Bottomley, and Brenda Jones.

1199
00:56:24.960 --> 00:56:26.940
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1200
00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:30.539
This episode, even better with your face, was recorded on the 15th

1201
00:56:30.539 --> 00:56:31.679
of January 2017.

1202
00:56:31.860 --> 00:56:34.739
The next episode will be released on the 5th of February.

1203
00:56:37.800 --> 00:56:40.920
Avid font fans should continue listening after this announcement

1204
00:56:40.920 --> 00:56:43.800
for a discussion of the typographical issues that plague the

1205
00:56:43.800 --> 00:56:45.360
opening credits for season 22.

1206
00:56:49.440 --> 00:56:52.019
Can anybody answer me this question?

1207
00:56:52.079 --> 00:56:56.159
Why, in the opening credits, is Attack of the Cyberman?

1208
00:56:56.219 --> 00:56:58.019
Written in all capitals.

1209
00:56:58.079 --> 00:57:00.480
In fact, it goes on for the rest of the season.

1210
00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:02.219
Yeah, yeah, it's horrible.

1211
00:57:02.280 --> 00:57:04.800
Well, not in the original versions.

1212
00:57:04.860 --> 00:57:06.960
Only in our 25 minute versions.

1213
00:57:07.079 --> 00:57:10.019
No, I'm watching 45 minute versions.

1214
00:57:10.079 --> 00:57:11.400
Because what happened?

1215
00:57:11.460 --> 00:57:13.019
This is going to be boring.

1216
00:57:13.079 --> 00:57:14.039
We'll cut all this out.

1217
00:57:14.099 --> 00:57:16.079
But when they were released in Australia.

1218
00:57:16.139 --> 00:57:19.440
Instead of the font that we use on the website, it's just

1219
00:57:19.440 --> 00:57:20.280
Helvetica.

1220
00:57:20.340 --> 00:57:24.780
The outlines, the fonts all wrong, and the part numbers and

1221
00:57:24.780 --> 00:57:25.019
stuff.

1222
00:57:25.079 --> 00:57:26.400
But what Todd?

1223
00:57:26.519 --> 00:57:28.019
Yeah, it is.

1224
00:57:28.079 --> 00:57:31.440
It's all in capitals and so it's part 2 and it goes by Paul Moore

1225
00:57:31.440 --> 00:57:32.639
and she's all capitals as well.

1226
00:57:32.699 --> 00:57:33.360
Yeah, yeah.

1227
00:57:33.420 --> 00:57:34.500
It just doesn't make.

1228
00:57:35.340 --> 00:57:37.679
Yeah, I just don't know why they made that decision.

1229
00:57:37.739 --> 00:57:40.800
It seems, it seems bizarre, really.

1230
00:57:40.860 --> 00:57:42.239
We need to wind up.

1231
00:57:42.300 --> 00:57:42.960
Yep, yep.

1232
00:57:43.019 --> 00:57:44.460
I think we've got enough.

1233
00:57:44.519 --> 00:57:45.539
Oh yeah, definitely.

1234
00:57:45.599 --> 00:57:46.380
Okay.

1235
00:57:46.440 --> 00:57:47.039
Okay.

1236
00:57:47.099 --> 00:57:51.119
Wait until I get to vengeance on Faros, but...

1237
00:57:51.840 --> 00:57:53.579
Oh great.

1238
00:57:54.000 --> 00:57:56.579
I'm about to praise it even more than this one.

1239
00:57:56.639 --> 00:57:57.780
I like it, Todd.

1240
00:57:57.840 --> 00:57:58.320
Okay.