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This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 12:05:33

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast to enjoy Capacayle's in brandy sauce

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with a stuffing of black pudding made with live pig bloods, herbs

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pepper, and, of course, padding.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Todd, and Patrick Troughton's back.

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It's the 2 doctors.

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This story came about because of how thrilled John Nathan Turner

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was watching Patrick Troughton, Fraser Hines, and Wendy Padbury, in

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the 5 doctors, and sort of said to them on the spot while they

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were recording, hey, we're planning this 3 part, well, equivalent

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of a 6 part story in America next year.

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Would you like to come in on it?

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And Patrick and Fraser said, yeah, please.

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I think Wendy was pregnant with Charlie, which is part of the

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reason she's not back.

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Her daughter Charlie.

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Needless to say, this story is not set in America for a variety of

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reasons.

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We'll go into a bit later, but it's this strange equivalent of a

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six-parter.

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John Nathan Doner hated 6 partters.

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This is the only 6 part equivalent story we get in his run.

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And he had Eric Saywood phone, Robert Holmes, recently writer of

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the Caves of Andrazani and said, okay, we want you to write a big

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story.

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And Robert Holmes said, okay.

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And Eric Saywood said, it's set in America.

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It's got Patrick Troughton, Fraser Heinz, and Santarons, and the

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new doctor, and Perry, and Robert Holmes just went, oh, God.

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He always reacted really badly to being given a big kitchen sink

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script.

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I mean, the last time, I guess, was Power of Kroll, where he was

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told to include the biggest monster ever and really, really got

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annoyed and kind of left immediately afterwards.

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But I think that Robert Holmes is obviously one of the great

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writers that the series ever had.

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And I think it was kind of a strange decision of JNT to kind of

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veto older writers.

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And so it was a coup to get him back for Caves of Andrazani.

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And I actually think that this is a reasonably good Bob Holmes

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script.

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And it has some clever things in it, which I don't know, go sort

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of generally recognised.

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And I think it's a good fit for this season in that this season is

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all about kind of black comedies and and they don't always come

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off.

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I've said that before, but Holmes is skilled.

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His instinct is to kind of go nasty, but he does it well and there

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are scenes here that are genuinely funny.

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Yeah, yeah, I agree.

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What do you think, Todd?

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I love this.

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It's epic.

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You know, it's, um, the 1st 6 episode story since, um, again

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factor.

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Yeah, it's the longest story between sort of Armageddon factor and

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utopia sound of drums last of the time lords, and I don't even

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think that's one story, really.

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So it is, it is properly epic.

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And I think, you know, like, I think Holmes manages to get enough

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to happen in this to kind of justify 345 minute episodes.

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I think there is some padding and there are some longers and stuff

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in it.

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But I think it generally works.

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Patrick Chowton or the 2nd doctor and Jamie Turnup and uh, Yeah

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he's on a mission from the time lords.

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Yeah.

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Bit of a continuity problem.

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Now, I'm not sure what that's about, whether or not Holmes just

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misremembers, you know, the history of the doctor around then.

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He just knows the doctor was exiled to earth.

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I don't know why Eric Saywood may not pick up on it, or Ian Levine

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the so-called continuity fan expert, to say, well, look, the

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doctor's on a run from his own people.

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He's not going to reveal this information, you know?

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I think there's a problem with regarding Doctor Who as a

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consistent series of stories. that chronicle the adventures of a

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particular individual.

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And so what's really happening here is that we get guest stars

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from the 60s.

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And now that the show is about a time lord from the planet

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Galafray in the constellation of Kosturbus, who occasionally does

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go on missions to the time lords, that's just how we conceive of

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the doctor, even though none of that stuff had actually happened.

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And I kind of find it off-putting, to see Patrick Trouton's doctor

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referred to as a timelord, even, and to have him talk about

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galafray.

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And I hate the conception that Gallifrey is a political force, and

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there's the 3rd zone governments, and all of that just seems sort

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of, you know, tiresome and and sort of Star Trek, you know, as if

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we're in a consistent universe rather than just a sort of series

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of stories.

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I dislike that a lot.

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And just the thought that the doctor, like our doctor, Patrick

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Troughton, would go on a mission for the time, Lord, seems so

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wrong.

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You know, none of those things ever got mentioned during his, you

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know, maybe the last 2 episodes of his, uh, time as the doctor

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those things come up.

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Yeah, I gather Robert Holmes has sort of, when he was still alive

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he didn't live much longer after this about 2 years.

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But someone raised it to him at a convention and he kind of put

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forward 2 different ideas at 2 different times.

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And one of the ideas he put forward was just saying, oh, you know

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I realised after I wrote it and after we shot it, that it was

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actually John who went, who went on missions, et cetera, et

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cetera.

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And, you know, I just got confused because I hadn't been involved

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with the show for that long when John got involved, so I thought

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it was just always the case.

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The other thing he's actually put forward is what is now known as

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the season 6 B theory, which we've discussed before, but dear

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listeners, for those of you who are not aware, the season 6 B

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theory is that at the end of the war games, the celestial

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intervention agency who were mentioned in the deadly assassin as

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having intervened in the doctor's trial, pretty much rescue the

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doctor and send him on clandestine missions.

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And this is not even the origin of it.

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There was a series of comics published between the war games and

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Spearhead from Space, where the doctor is an agent for the Time

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Lords.

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Exiled to earth, but still in the form of Patrick Troughton, and

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is then lured into the Tartars by a bunch of time-look controlled

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scarecrows and forced to regenerate and land in a field.

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With the final panel, a reproduction of the 1st shot that John

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Pertley appears in falling out of the TARDIS.

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So we may never know what was actually going through John Nathan

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Turner's head, Ian Levine has, I believe, said that he did raise

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it with the production team, and because the pre-production of

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this story had been so troubled.

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They just kind of said, look, it's too late to do anything about

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it now.

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As I mentioned earlier, this story was meant to be set in New

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Orleans.

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JNT had gone on holiday there in 1980 and thought that the French

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quarter with its vibrancy would make a fantastic location.

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Um, he tried to secure extra funding from BBC Enterprises, kind of

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saying, Doctor Who's propping up BBC overseas sales.

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Can we see some more of that money, please?

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That didn't happen.

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So he made a deal with a production company called Lionheart, hired

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an American writer who wrote a treatment called Way Down Yonder.

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Didn't involve androgums, did involve Santarins, and was set in

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New Orleans, and one of the big payoffs it would have of the

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season. was after 3 stories of the doctor constantly berating

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Perry for her poor English.

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The doctor would have no idea what anyone was saying in America in

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New Orleans and it would be up to Perry to sort of liaise and

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translate.

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The co-funding deal fell through.

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Right.

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And that was after Bob Holmes had written a New Orleans-based

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story and he's like, French quarter, New Orleans food.

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I'll create these gastronomic aliens, an anagram of gourmand, the

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androgums, and then when it switched to Spain, as he said, I

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didn't have time to come up with anything else.

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So they just stayed.

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Well, you know, continuity is something that I always like to try

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and get out of that 6B theory.

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I just going to go, I roll my eyes, listeners.

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I roll my eyes.

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I don't know Maybe the doctor met the precursor of the CIA and

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they said you have to go on this mission.

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So he mentions it to Jamie and all that's happening, and then just

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by pure luck, the 6th doctor, the current doctor, they meet, and

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as you know, when a previous incarnation meets the current

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incarnation, when they go back into their timeline, the web of

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time, it raises works to erase that from their history.

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So all of that just, he forgets about it, Jamie thickets about

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it.

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And, you know, part of the CIA deal is not telling the timelines

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that he's out there and they've found him.

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You know, there is actually a line of dialogue where Holmes tries

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to deal with the fact that Colin can't remember this story, which

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is that when Pat is strapped to a table and being operated on by

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Dastari, he's given a drug which he recognises and says has an

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effect on the memory.

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So I think that he was trying to deal with it.

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Look, I think the 6B theory just doesn't work.

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They've just dropped Victoria off to study graphology.

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You know, Jamie remembers the doctor, Jamie knows what time lords

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are.

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It's just a mistake, you know, I think it is a shame because

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unlike the 3 doctors and the 5 doctors, I think we get Pat's best

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performance as the doctor since he left the show.

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He's so much more like the actual doctor than he is, he's kind of

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like an elder statesman when he comes back in the 3 doctors, and

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he doesn't do that sort of panicky, panting pat, which I really

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really love, which I think that Pete kind of references a little

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bit in his performance.

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And that's terrific.

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I think he's really funny.

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His his sort of mercurial.

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He's, you know, he's the old pat rather than, uh, I'm here doing a

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guest star turn for this very special anniversary occasion.

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So I think that's really good.

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I think he's having terrific fun as um Andragum Pat as well.

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I think he's really really enjoying himself.

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That is, that is a whole weird sequence, especially when Shockeye

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played wonderfully by John Stratton wakes up and gets, gets to do

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that whole wonderful speech about how he's been betrayed.

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And, you know, for the 1st time shows what we would consider real

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sort of human emotion and vulnerability.

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You know, he cannot believe that Cecini has done this to him.

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But then, 2 hours later when they come back from their beal, all

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is forgiven. not even thinking about it.

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Yeah, no, he's distracted by food.

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Namely, on Tarin's leg, but we'll come back to that.

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I think Shockeye is extremely good in this.

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And I think that the Androgums are a really amazing monster.

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And people criticise this story because of Peter Moffatt's

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direction, and I don't think Peter Moffatt's direction is

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particularly good.

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But the big critique is that when the Santarans 1st appear, they

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aren't given a sort of close-up or anything like that.

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There's really no sort of fanfare about it.

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And I think that that's because this isn't a story where the

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Santarans are monsters.

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Stike and Varlet just characters.

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Holmes is not interested really in monsters.

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And the Androgums are, I think, a critique of the idea of

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monsters.

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And this is a point that Sandifer has made as well.

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But I think it's, it's really clear that what he's created is a

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monster that looks essentially like human.

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I mean, Shockeye is like a sort of camp, you know, dissolute old

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queen, you know, um, who's dressed for a pantomime, uh, and just

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looks like uh, a kind of old guy with sort of giant eyebrows.

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But whenever any of the characters describe the Androgums, they're

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like super strong and powerful, you know, shockeye can drink 6

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bottles of wine and eat an entire suckling pig and half a family

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paella at lunch with no ill effects, you know, he's superhuman and

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terrifying.

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So he's described as a monster, but he just looks like a person.

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And so everyone who talks about Androgums all throughout this

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story just seems like a horrific racist, you know, because they're

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essentially just people.

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And even to the point where, where Colin, you know, ends up

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gassing shockeye with Oscar's cyanide, and that seems terrible

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00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:03.480
because it's just Colin killing a person.

243
00:13:03.539 --> 00:13:07.740
But the person is spoken of as being a monster all the way

244
00:13:07.740 --> 00:13:08.039
through.

245
00:13:08.100 --> 00:13:12.240
And it kind of serves as a critique of the idea of monsters, that

246
00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:18.059
monsters are a kind of basically xenophobic or racist idea that, uh

247
00:13:18.059 --> 00:13:21.419
that the androgums evil because they're androgums and you can't

248
00:13:21.419 --> 00:13:22.740
genetically engineer them.

249
00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:28.080
Pat compares Cecini to a monkey in like a really horrifically

250
00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:29.279
racist line.

251
00:13:29.340 --> 00:13:31.440
And so I think that's intentional.

252
00:13:31.500 --> 00:13:34.559
I don't think that the material is getting away from homes here.

253
00:13:34.620 --> 00:13:37.259
I think he's setting out to deliberately critique the idea of

254
00:13:37.259 --> 00:13:38.580
monsters in Doctor Who.

255
00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:43.860
There seems to be a scene in every story of this season where the

256
00:13:43.860 --> 00:13:47.159
doctor gets to be violent and that's become a focal point of what

257
00:13:47.159 --> 00:13:47.879
people talk about.

258
00:13:48.299 --> 00:13:55.500
I have no problem with the gassing scene because we have seen that

259
00:13:55.500 --> 00:14:00.720
shockeye does not have what we would consider a sense of reason.

260
00:14:00.779 --> 00:14:04.559
So the doctor saying, hold on, can't we discuss this?

261
00:14:04.620 --> 00:14:08.879
Well, the doctor has just had to rescue both Perry and Jamie from

262
00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:10.620
being literally butchered by this man.

263
00:14:10.679 --> 00:14:13.799
And the doctor has a massive gash in his leg.

264
00:14:13.860 --> 00:14:16.500
It is bleeding profusely from that enough to leave a blood trail.

265
00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:19.679
So the doctor's just in the situation of, I've got no choice

266
00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:20.220
here.

267
00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:25.320
And The thing is, it's very different to the situation of the

268
00:14:25.320 --> 00:14:28.559
doctor going and pointing a gun in Davros's face, as I know you

269
00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:32.879
objected to last year, Nathan, because it's the doctor being

270
00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:34.919
pursued rather than the doctor doing the pursuing.

271
00:14:34.980 --> 00:14:39.120
Even the just desserts line, I don't see that as a gloating line

272
00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:43.860
that is an expression of relief like this situation is over.

273
00:14:44.039 --> 00:14:47.159
He doesn't really take any pleasure in the killing.

274
00:14:47.220 --> 00:14:51.000
Like when he comes back, he he sort of just obliquely refers to

275
00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:51.539
what he's done.

276
00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:54.179
Just like Shockeye's been mockballed and let's move on and let's

277
00:14:54.179 --> 00:14:54.840
not discuss it.

278
00:14:54.899 --> 00:14:58.259
I actually object more strongly to other things this season, like

279
00:14:58.259 --> 00:15:01.980
the doctor gunning, the cyber controller in the face and the

280
00:15:01.980 --> 00:15:04.740
doctor shooting Daleks with a big gun in Revelation.

281
00:15:04.799 --> 00:15:08.639
I don't like very much, but I'm not that worried about this, partly

282
00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:12.360
because it's sold by the kind of desperation that the doctor's in

283
00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:15.000
and the chase and all of that sort of thing.

284
00:15:15.059 --> 00:15:18.779
And partly because I think it intends to be problematic.

285
00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:21.899
It is the doctor gassing a guy in the face, but the guy's a

286
00:15:21.899 --> 00:15:25.500
monster and the doctor kills monsters, you know.

287
00:15:25.559 --> 00:15:28.980
So I don't think that that's bad at all.

288
00:15:29.039 --> 00:15:31.740
And in fact, that chase is wonderfully well directed.

289
00:15:32.279 --> 00:15:36.299
I'm laughing my head off because I came in here thinking that I

290
00:15:36.299 --> 00:15:38.879
would have to have a battle on my hands to justify that sequence

291
00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:42.539
with actually with Nathan. been in my head all week.

292
00:15:42.840 --> 00:15:47.879
So I've been very silent listening to you both, and I agree, and

293
00:15:47.879 --> 00:15:52.559
that chase is brilliant, and I think Peter Moffatt's direction on

294
00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:53.039
location.

295
00:15:53.100 --> 00:15:54.659
I really love it.

296
00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:58.379
Yeah, I think I think he does one or 2 good shots in the studio as

297
00:15:58.379 --> 00:15:58.620
well.

298
00:15:58.679 --> 00:16:02.100
I don't think it's that interesting, but there are one or 2 shots

299
00:16:02.100 --> 00:16:02.820
which I think are good.

300
00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:07.500
The direction's a bit flat and a bit unremarkable, um, but it's

301
00:16:07.500 --> 00:16:08.159
not terrible.

302
00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:12.000
And certainly, you know, the big complaint about the reveal of the

303
00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:12.960
Sonterans.

304
00:16:13.019 --> 00:16:14.039
I think is a problem at all.

305
00:16:14.279 --> 00:16:16.379
The music helps too.

306
00:16:16.440 --> 00:16:17.039
The chase.

307
00:16:17.100 --> 00:16:19.139
The music in the chases one.

308
00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:21.419
I can't do the music.

309
00:16:21.480 --> 00:16:22.080
Yeah, with the guitar.

310
00:16:31.139 --> 00:16:32.279
Oh, great.

311
00:16:32.340 --> 00:16:33.059
No, no, no, no.

312
00:16:33.059 --> 00:16:34.080
That's fantastic.

313
00:16:34.139 --> 00:16:37.799
And I also love the Santara and like the battle, you know, music.

314
00:16:37.860 --> 00:16:39.120
This on Taran music is great.

315
00:16:46.139 --> 00:16:48.059
Yeah, it's wonderful.

316
00:16:48.179 --> 00:16:51.419
Something I love about the Santara and reveal is actually the

317
00:16:51.419 --> 00:16:54.720
reveal in dialogue when their ships are coming towards it and the

318
00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:58.740
computer tells the fabulous Jacqueline Pierce, Santara, and Battle

319
00:16:58.740 --> 00:16:59.940
Cruises approaching.

320
00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:03.000
I think that's a great touch because fans who've been watching

321
00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:06.480
since 1978 or had the Doctor Who Monster book will go, oh my god

322
00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:07.440
the Santarans are back.

323
00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:11.759
And people who don't know the Santarans will just go, what was

324
00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:12.119
that word?

325
00:17:12.180 --> 00:17:12.839
What does that mean?

326
00:17:12.900 --> 00:17:15.119
And it creates, it creates intrigue.

327
00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:21.119
I actually have a note here, which is, I think this is the worst

328
00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:22.200
Colin Baker story.

329
00:17:22.259 --> 00:17:23.940
I think it might be the best.

330
00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:29.640
But, I think part of the reason for that is when they lose the

331
00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:32.640
American location and they have to lose all the word play that was

332
00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:36.960
going to be in there because instead of having our core cast of

333
00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:39.960
characters who speak British English and another core cast of

334
00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:43.200
characters who speak American English, we have our core cast of

335
00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:47.700
characters who speak English, and then if we have a core cast of

336
00:17:47.700 --> 00:17:51.000
Spanish characters, they have to speak Spanish or they have to

337
00:17:51.000 --> 00:17:52.500
speak English as well, like Anita.

338
00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:53.640
So you lose that language play.

339
00:17:53.700 --> 00:17:59.400
And I just feel there are long bits where not a lot happens and I

340
00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:02.400
kind of feel that maybe they should have looked at the script and

341
00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:04.859
gone, I know we wanted to make this a six.

342
00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:07.619
Let's look at what we can do with this other episode somewhere in

343
00:18:07.619 --> 00:18:09.420
the season and make it a 2 parter.

344
00:18:09.480 --> 00:18:13.980
Certainly, the stuff in the ducting at the end of episode one and

345
00:18:13.980 --> 00:18:16.140
the beginning of episode 2 is a bit boring.

346
00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:17.940
In the 6 part version.

347
00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:19.619
Yeah, right, so we've got episode one.

348
00:18:19.859 --> 00:18:20.160
Oh, yes.

349
00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:23.579
With Pat getting there, the doctor's off fishing.

350
00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:24.359
Don't do that.

351
00:18:24.420 --> 00:18:27.299
You'll frighten the fish is one of my all-time favourite lines

352
00:18:27.299 --> 00:18:28.680
ever.

353
00:18:28.740 --> 00:18:30.539
Like I just burst out laughing every time.

354
00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:32.700
Like I've been fishing and I've been bored and throwing things

355
00:18:32.700 --> 00:18:33.960
going, when are we going to catch you?

356
00:18:34.019 --> 00:18:35.039
Catch some fish.

357
00:18:35.099 --> 00:18:37.259
I can understand Paul Perry's predicament.

358
00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:40.500
The doctor being incompetent in a rather sweet way as well

359
00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:41.759
catchers.

360
00:18:41.819 --> 00:18:45.420
And we've got the most valuable fish in the universe at this time

361
00:18:45.420 --> 00:18:46.680
is the home script.

362
00:18:46.740 --> 00:18:50.460
And Gumble Jack is such a Bob Holmes word. is, isn't it?

363
00:18:50.519 --> 00:18:54.059
But then, of course, they, at the end of that, episode one of the

364
00:18:54.059 --> 00:18:56.759
six-part version, of course, Perry and the doctor have arrived on

365
00:18:56.759 --> 00:19:00.359
the station and they're assessing the situation and we've got that

366
00:19:00.359 --> 00:19:03.180
wonderful cliffhanger, you know, the doctor says it threatened no

367
00:19:03.180 --> 00:19:06.839
one and then the computer says, it threatened the time lords, Q

368
00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:08.880
Sting, which I just think it's a fantastic.

369
00:19:08.940 --> 00:19:13.200
But then we've got 25 minutes, another 20 minutes of this, the 2nd

370
00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:17.160
half of this, this um, 45 minute episode, where basically it's the

371
00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:19.799
Dr. Perry bitching at each other through the ducting and all

372
00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:20.339
around the station.

373
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:22.920
And I think it's, in terms of the season.

374
00:19:22.980 --> 00:19:25.920
And in terms of this story, I think it's the 25 minutes that I

375
00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:26.400
like the least.

376
00:19:26.460 --> 00:19:31.259
The moment that they meet Jamie, again, having that 3rd person in

377
00:19:31.259 --> 00:19:33.779
with them just improves everything, you know?

378
00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:36.299
And then there's that wonderful scene where it actually, you know

379
00:19:36.299 --> 00:19:39.119
finds the fake deaths of Perry and that is really concerned and

380
00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:41.160
everything, that's at the beginning of the next episode, I think

381
00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:41.880
or...

382
00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:42.359
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

383
00:19:42.420 --> 00:19:43.740
And everything just picks up from there.

384
00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:45.240
But all that ducting stuff.

385
00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:46.559
Yeah, yeah, you know.

386
00:19:46.619 --> 00:19:50.279
And then Jamie attacking Perry, like, yeah, I don't know why it

387
00:19:50.279 --> 00:19:54.000
becomes a strange monster from the trauma of seeing the doctor

388
00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:54.960
killed or whatever.

389
00:19:55.380 --> 00:19:59.039
Something I found watching that 1st episode, and it was when I was

390
00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:02.339
watching that scene with the doctor and Perry in Destari's

391
00:20:02.339 --> 00:20:02.640
office.

392
00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:09.059
And on the commentary, you have Colin Nicola, Peter Moffatt, Fraser

393
00:20:09.059 --> 00:20:13.319
and Jackie Pierce, and they slightly, they slightly vary.

394
00:20:13.380 --> 00:20:15.299
But that's a 7 minute scene.

395
00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:19.019
And Colin and Nicola are praising Peter Moffat and, you know

396
00:20:19.019 --> 00:20:20.640
nobody was doing that on television anymore.

397
00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:22.259
Yeah, because you get bored.

398
00:20:22.859 --> 00:20:26.940
But what I was thinking when I was watching that was, imagine if

399
00:20:26.940 --> 00:20:29.700
the story started with the doctor and Perry fishing.

400
00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:30.720
Yeah.

401
00:20:30.779 --> 00:20:34.859
Then you go into the TARDIS, the doctor collapses and you flash

402
00:20:34.859 --> 00:20:37.500
back to Pat and you tell the 2 stories on the station

403
00:20:37.500 --> 00:20:40.380
simultaneously with each other.

404
00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:42.779
So when the doctor and Perry are into Starry's office, you then

405
00:20:42.779 --> 00:20:47.339
cut back to Patrick and Jamie in Dastari's office having a go at

406
00:20:47.339 --> 00:20:48.059
him.

407
00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:50.400
When the doctor and Perry are going through the ducks, you then

408
00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:52.680
have Jamie seeing the doctor.

409
00:20:52.740 --> 00:20:57.779
Because the problem with Collins, Dr. and Perry exploring the

410
00:20:57.779 --> 00:21:02.640
station is that the plot is now happening with Patrick elsewhere

411
00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:05.940
and we have to delay them getting to that plot in order for

412
00:21:05.940 --> 00:21:08.339
Patrick's plot to sort of move on a bit.

413
00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:11.819
I really like the doctor and Perry relationship in this story.

414
00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:15.000
And when they're going through the ducting, I think the bitching

415
00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:16.500
is actually at the perfect level.

416
00:21:16.619 --> 00:21:20.400
For instance, the doctor's being pompous, but he's not being nasty

417
00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:25.559
and Perry's being fed up, but she's not traumatised, you know what

418
00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:25.859
I mean?

419
00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:30.299
There's that bit where Perry has something really important to say

420
00:21:30.299 --> 00:21:32.160
like, I think there's a creature following us.

421
00:21:32.220 --> 00:21:34.799
And the doctor tells her off for interrupting him, but she should

422
00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:35.579
feel privileged.

423
00:21:35.640 --> 00:21:37.920
I can't tell you how privileged.

424
00:21:38.039 --> 00:21:38.460
I feel.

425
00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:40.019
She's great.

426
00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:43.079
There's that whole bit with, hold your arms up and slide down.

427
00:21:43.140 --> 00:21:43.859
What if I get stuck?

428
00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:44.759
Well, I shouldn't have buyed that.

429
00:21:44.819 --> 00:21:45.420
Be right behind you.

430
00:21:46.019 --> 00:21:49.980
Colin in this is amazing.

431
00:21:50.039 --> 00:21:51.599
He's got these wonderful speeches.

432
00:21:51.660 --> 00:21:55.980
He's got that speech about death and decay, which is horrifying

433
00:21:55.980 --> 00:21:58.019
but it's so well delivered.

434
00:21:58.079 --> 00:22:01.079
He's got that speech about the possible death of the universe and

435
00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:04.259
he brings it all down to there'll be no more butterflies.

436
00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:05.700
No more gumblejacks.

437
00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:06.539
No more gumblejack.

438
00:22:06.599 --> 00:22:10.319
That is the worst kind of word peril though, isn't it?

439
00:22:10.380 --> 00:22:12.359
And we throw it away quite quickly.

440
00:22:12.420 --> 00:22:15.420
For a little while, we think the universe is going to be destroyed

441
00:22:15.420 --> 00:22:18.299
but we're just told that in a speech by Colin and then it goes

442
00:22:18.299 --> 00:22:18.539
away.

443
00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:21.660
See, this is why having a nonlinear story would work because if we

444
00:22:21.660 --> 00:22:24.539
didn't know whether Patrick was still alive at that point or not

445
00:22:24.539 --> 00:22:26.759
it would actually raise the barrel.

446
00:22:26.819 --> 00:22:28.019
We don't actually know that.

447
00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:32.400
Have we seen Pat being carried by the Santarians in episode one?

448
00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:33.779
Yeah, that happened.

449
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:34.799
Backup of episode one.

450
00:22:34.859 --> 00:22:35.339
Okay.

451
00:22:35.400 --> 00:22:37.799
Because it's a long time that we don't see him, isn't it?

452
00:22:37.859 --> 00:22:41.220
It's strangely paced and it does suffer from that 45 minute

453
00:22:41.220 --> 00:22:41.700
thing.

454
00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:44.579
It's 10 minutes before Colin and Nicola are even in it.

455
00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:48.900
That's okay because the stuff with the doctor and Jamie is kind of

456
00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:49.380
exactly.

457
00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:51.059
You know, the doctor has arrived in the story.

458
00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:55.140
Yeah, a doctor has, but Colin doesn't get to be in the story until

459
00:22:55.140 --> 00:22:56.940
well into episode two.

460
00:22:57.000 --> 00:22:59.160
And so that is a bit of a problem.

461
00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:02.940
I love your idea of running all that parallel.

462
00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:05.460
Brendan, I think one of the listeners out there needs to do a re

463
00:23:04.920 --> 00:23:08.220
edit and post it up to YouTube because that would be very, very

464
00:23:08.220 --> 00:23:08.579
interesting.

465
00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:10.920
Obviously, in this 1st episode, we introduced to other

466
00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:11.339
characters.

467
00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:15.059
Do you know, I'd forgotten that Jacqueline Pierce was in this.

468
00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:17.460
But it's not Serverland.

469
00:23:17.579 --> 00:23:22.200
It's pitched so perfectly between being just to camp and just the

470
00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:24.539
right sort of, you know, villainous sort of thing.

471
00:23:24.599 --> 00:23:25.259
I don't know.

472
00:23:25.319 --> 00:23:26.400
It's just something that's delicious.

473
00:23:26.460 --> 00:23:29.400
I think everybody in this story pictures their performance. very

474
00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:32.819
similarly, like within a range that works, and I think we've seen

475
00:23:32.819 --> 00:23:35.279
in other stories this season, certainly one coming up, where

476
00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:37.740
you've suddenly got a huge range, who you can see who's over the

477
00:23:37.740 --> 00:23:38.819
top and who's really crap.

478
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:41.579
Whereas in this, I think everybody's universally very good.

479
00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:44.819
Justari, I think, is one of the performances of the year.

480
00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:46.740
He was in the gunfighters, wasn't he?

481
00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:47.160
Yes.

482
00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:51.839
And he just manages to have that warmth and you can see the whole

483
00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:54.660
character journey and it just holds everything together.

484
00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:55.740
It's so believable.

485
00:23:55.799 --> 00:23:58.680
He's Morix in episode one of the leisure hive as well.

486
00:23:58.740 --> 00:24:04.259
Oh, the original, who I really liked too, is the original...

487
00:24:04.259 --> 00:24:07.079
He's got a great thing in episode 3 where he gradually becomes

488
00:24:07.079 --> 00:24:10.440
more and more sort of disgusted and disappointed with Cassini

489
00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:11.759
which I think he sells quite well.

490
00:24:11.819 --> 00:24:16.019
And I think also disappointed in himself because Cassini is his

491
00:24:16.019 --> 00:24:16.619
achievement.

492
00:24:16.680 --> 00:24:18.299
She is a possession to him.

493
00:24:18.359 --> 00:24:21.420
Then he's got this realisation that actually she's got her own

494
00:24:21.420 --> 00:24:26.700
personality and her own thoughts, which kind of intrigues him, and

495
00:24:26.700 --> 00:24:29.940
then I think it's when she orders the conversion of the doctor

496
00:24:29.940 --> 00:24:31.380
into an androgum.

497
00:24:31.380 --> 00:24:31.799
Yeah.

498
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:34.740
Oh, she kills people as well.

499
00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:37.740
Oh yeah, well, yeah, she kills people on the base.

500
00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:39.779
But that's part, you know, he's part of the plan.

501
00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:41.640
Yeah. in that.

502
00:24:41.700 --> 00:24:44.400
But when she breaks free in, she starts doing her own thing.

503
00:24:44.460 --> 00:24:47.579
And then when she starts to regress, Jackie Pearce in that scene

504
00:24:47.579 --> 00:24:50.279
where she just lays down on the ground and rubs blood in her

505
00:24:50.279 --> 00:24:50.519
face.

506
00:24:50.579 --> 00:24:55.559
You know, for years, we, as genre fans, of course, Todd, you refer

507
00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:58.500
to Serverland, Jacqueline Pierce's famous role for 4 years in

508
00:24:58.500 --> 00:24:59.220
Blake 7.

509
00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:01.559
That's how we know Jacqueline Pierce.

510
00:25:01.619 --> 00:25:05.339
She is utterly sophisticated and utterly ruthless.

511
00:25:05.339 --> 00:25:08.940
To see her playing a character here, who is also sophisticated and

512
00:25:08.940 --> 00:25:13.680
also ruthless, but then regresses into savagery, and she sells it

513
00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:14.460
completely.

514
00:25:14.519 --> 00:25:17.940
You know, there are actors who they've got their niche and they

515
00:25:17.940 --> 00:25:19.440
play their niche and they're very good at.

516
00:25:19.559 --> 00:25:23.700
And Jacqueline Pierce, for the 1st 2 episodes of the story, you'd

517
00:25:23.700 --> 00:25:27.299
say, okay, it's this niche where she's the strangely sexy and

518
00:25:27.299 --> 00:25:31.319
alluring intelligent villainess, but then you get that scene and

519
00:25:31.319 --> 00:25:35.339
you're just like, wow, you know, she can she can play what we

520
00:25:35.339 --> 00:25:37.440
would see a savage character as well.

521
00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:42.900
Peter Moffatt may not be a great visual director, but reflecting

522
00:25:42.900 --> 00:25:44.039
on his stories.

523
00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:48.000
He gets good performances out of people.

524
00:25:48.180 --> 00:25:52.079
So maybe he's one of these people you would call an actor's

525
00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:53.339
director, you know.

526
00:25:53.400 --> 00:25:55.259
Can I ask the question?

527
00:25:55.319 --> 00:25:58.019
When you watch this, Brendan, did you know Jacqueline as

528
00:25:58.019 --> 00:25:58.680
Servoland?

529
00:25:58.740 --> 00:26:03.059
Because as a kid, I hadn't really watched Blake Seven.

530
00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:04.019
I might have seen an episode.

531
00:26:04.019 --> 00:26:04.799
I thought, what is this?

532
00:26:04.859 --> 00:26:05.579
I never going to watch it.

533
00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:06.779
This is Sub Doctor Who.

534
00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:09.000
Like I was very anti-anything but Doctor Who.

535
00:26:09.059 --> 00:26:12.299
So I didn't really recognise her from that and I just loved

536
00:26:12.299 --> 00:26:13.680
Cassini, right?

537
00:26:13.740 --> 00:26:15.480
So that was my journey.

538
00:26:15.539 --> 00:26:19.680
I don't think I did know her because I vividly remember.

539
00:26:19.740 --> 00:26:22.680
I remember knowing what Blake 7 was, probably from the Doctor Who

540
00:26:22.680 --> 00:26:24.720
special effects book by Matt Irvine.

541
00:26:24.779 --> 00:26:30.299
But I distinctly remember when I was about 12 watching Blake 7 for

542
00:26:30.299 --> 00:26:32.220
what I believe is the 1st time.

543
00:26:32.220 --> 00:26:37.500
And it was the edited movie compilation of the 1st 3 episodes.

544
00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:42.240
So, yeah, I remember being terrified by the sequence where Nova

545
00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:45.779
gets killed in Space Fall, you know, with the perforated walls.

546
00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:47.460
And the BBC foam machine.

547
00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:50.940
Yeah, but you know, when you're 12, you didn't really know her as

548
00:26:50.940 --> 00:26:52.259
Superland.

549
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:52.980
No, absolutely not.

550
00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:55.019
I mean, it's the dialogue in this story.

551
00:26:55.079 --> 00:26:56.339
I mean, it's homes, right?

552
00:26:56.400 --> 00:26:57.180
Yeah, yeah.

553
00:26:57.240 --> 00:27:00.059
And she get, you know, I'm going back to episode one of the 3

554
00:27:00.059 --> 00:27:00.779
parter.

555
00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:01.440
She gets that moment.

556
00:27:01.500 --> 00:27:02.099
What does it say?

557
00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:04.380
That noble history lies behind us.

558
00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:06.299
But ahead lies a vision.

559
00:27:06.359 --> 00:27:09.720
And somebody somewhere has done an edit of that shot, goes

560
00:27:09.720 --> 00:27:12.119
straight into the Blake 7 and credits.

561
00:27:12.180 --> 00:27:12.779
It's hilarious.

562
00:27:12.839 --> 00:27:13.980
It's just wonderful.

563
00:27:14.039 --> 00:27:16.619
But there's other things like, you know, Shockeye will talk about

564
00:27:16.619 --> 00:27:17.759
Tulurians, you know?

565
00:27:17.819 --> 00:27:18.599
Yeah, yes.

566
00:27:18.599 --> 00:27:21.539
Which was Holmes's word for Earth people in Carnival of Monsters.

567
00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:24.359
Yeah, things like that that I just love.

568
00:27:24.420 --> 00:27:28.079
I love shock eye catching the ration bite to get to it and saying

569
00:27:28.079 --> 00:27:31.259
smoke dried, it might just be tolerable.

570
00:27:31.319 --> 00:27:34.440
In fact, that scene is incredibly funny, and people say, oh, you

571
00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:36.720
know, it's terribly totally inappropriate, and it is kind of

572
00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:37.799
totally inappropriate.

573
00:27:37.859 --> 00:27:41.220
And in the context of the season, maybe it's a bit too much, but

574
00:27:41.220 --> 00:27:42.180
gee, it's funny.

575
00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:45.299
Like, he twists its neck and takes a bite out of it.

576
00:27:45.299 --> 00:27:49.920
And then this, like, a rat with a big cartoon bite taken out of

577
00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:51.480
the side of it that he's waving around.

578
00:27:51.539 --> 00:27:55.200
The other thing, which is really horrible, is the way that he's

579
00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:57.359
clearly eaten the donya.

580
00:27:57.420 --> 00:27:59.099
That is so fantastic.

581
00:27:59.160 --> 00:28:03.900
Like, oh, I detect great age. and then she hobbles in.

582
00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:06.359
What does she say something about your English, nor care, or

583
00:28:06.359 --> 00:28:06.539
whatever?

584
00:28:06.599 --> 00:28:07.859
That's the other thing too.

585
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:12.420
So it's it's Dastari who's from the 3rd zone and this sort of

586
00:28:12.420 --> 00:28:15.660
stupid space station, some Santarans and some Andrigams.

587
00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:16.799
Walk into a bath.

588
00:28:16.859 --> 00:28:17.819
Walk into a bar.

589
00:28:17.880 --> 00:28:20.099
And the Dona Arana hears them speak.

590
00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:22.920
I think it's Shockey says it cannot see.

591
00:28:22.980 --> 00:28:25.799
And she goes, you are English?

592
00:28:25.859 --> 00:28:30.480
So clearly in the Doctor Who universe. everyone speaks English

593
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:34.079
except for non-English speaking people on earth.

594
00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:40.019
But again, and it has that hilarious thing where she goes away

595
00:28:40.019 --> 00:28:44.339
from an altar, like she's been praying and you get, you get that

596
00:28:44.339 --> 00:28:47.700
line of dialogue from Shockey where he says, I'm not interested in

597
00:28:47.700 --> 00:28:52.019
the beliefs of primitives only in what they taste like.

598
00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:55.500
And then a few scenes later when Chasidi's talking about the

599
00:28:55.500 --> 00:28:57.180
knowledge he's getting from the Dona Arada.

600
00:28:57.240 --> 00:28:59.940
Shockeye says something like, oh, can we find another one?

601
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:01.559
There was not much meat on the boat.

602
00:29:01.619 --> 00:29:04.619
It's fantastic. laughing my head off now.

603
00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:06.000
Just, just, just...

604
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:07.500
I just had this black sins of humour.

605
00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:09.059
It just tickles my fancy.

606
00:29:09.180 --> 00:29:10.440
But the great thing is too.

607
00:29:10.500 --> 00:29:13.920
Where I said that the Androgums are coded as monsters and that's

608
00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:16.799
what's so weird about them is that he's also really, really

609
00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:17.220
human.

610
00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:21.180
I mean, there is this implication that human beings are monsters.

611
00:29:21.180 --> 00:29:24.539
And, you know, this season has a lot of cannibalism in it, which

612
00:29:24.539 --> 00:29:28.859
is not anything we've had to say about Doctor Who before, but, you

613
00:29:28.859 --> 00:29:33.299
know, as human beings, we're basically sort of chewing our way

614
00:29:33.299 --> 00:29:37.980
through entire ecosystems and seeing 1000000s and 1000000s of

615
00:29:37.980 --> 00:29:41.039
animals every year killed in order to feed us.

616
00:29:41.099 --> 00:29:45.779
And You know, that's not that different from shockeye.

617
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:48.359
The implication is that Shockey is going to eat a lot of people.

618
00:29:48.420 --> 00:29:51.779
Remember, this planet is grossly overpopulated.

619
00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:55.859
And he says that by the time he leaves the planet, that may no

620
00:29:55.859 --> 00:29:56.940
longer be a problem.

621
00:29:57.240 --> 00:30:01.019
And of course, when he's tenderising Jamie, he's saying that the

622
00:30:01.019 --> 00:30:03.960
writhing and the screaming, oh no, that's just a reflex action.

623
00:30:04.019 --> 00:30:06.539
These animals don't feel pain the way you or I do.

624
00:30:06.599 --> 00:30:10.140
Yeah, yeah, all of those justifications that we make for our

625
00:30:10.140 --> 00:30:11.339
treatment of animals.

626
00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:14.819
And like I'm not a vegetarian, I'm not going to be a vegetarian

627
00:30:14.819 --> 00:30:18.720
anytime soon, but the moral argument for vegetarianism is pretty

628
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:22.559
strong and it's not hard to imagine that if we all survive the

629
00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:25.680
climate change crisis, which seems increasingly unlikely.

630
00:30:25.740 --> 00:30:29.640
Our descendants will look back on us and think, what on earth were

631
00:30:29.640 --> 00:30:31.740
we doing, eating all of these animals.

632
00:30:31.799 --> 00:30:33.839
It is a real kind of moral blind spot that we have.

633
00:30:33.900 --> 00:30:38.039
And home satirises it, I think, in a sensible way, they're like us

634
00:30:38.039 --> 00:30:38.759
only worse.

635
00:30:38.819 --> 00:30:41.940
Yeah, because Holmes, of course, was vegetarian himself.

636
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:45.480
Nicola Bryant is vegetarian and it was actually Nicola Bryant who

637
00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:48.059
walked up to him with the script and said, are you a vegetarian?

638
00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:51.000
And he said, yeah, and she said, I thought so.

639
00:30:51.059 --> 00:30:55.619
She was kind of like one of the few people who got that aspect of

640
00:30:55.619 --> 00:31:00.420
the script, that it was an indictment on our practises, and it's

641
00:31:00.420 --> 00:31:03.480
why the last line of the story is from now on, it's a healthy

642
00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:07.079
vegetarian diet for both of us, as the discontinuity guide points

643
00:31:07.079 --> 00:31:11.519
out, having the 2 doctors, as a message for vegetarianism, is like

644
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:16.319
having a Peter Greenaway film tried to criticise pornography. or

645
00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:19.440
Sam Peckon Park criticising a slasher film.

646
00:31:19.500 --> 00:31:23.819
Speaking of slasher films, of course, we've had a slasher film

647
00:31:23.819 --> 00:31:28.200
influence earlier this year with vengeance on Baros, which was not

648
00:31:28.200 --> 00:31:35.519
only a sort of reaction to the growing horror film market, but a

649
00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:37.019
satire of it.

650
00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:40.559
A lot of people have compared, especially the location scenes

651
00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:43.019
especially the chase scenes involving shockeye.

652
00:31:43.079 --> 00:31:45.119
So when he's chasing down Perry when he's chasing down the doctor

653
00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:47.099
to the Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

654
00:31:47.160 --> 00:31:52.380
Which was about made about 10 years before this, but was still a

655
00:31:52.380 --> 00:31:57.299
horror icon, and especially with the resurgence in slasher films

656
00:31:57.299 --> 00:32:00.119
towards the end of the 70s beginning of the 80s and right through

657
00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:00.599
till now.

658
00:32:00.660 --> 00:32:03.900
Friday the 13th was still going, Nightmare on Elm Street, I think

659
00:32:03.900 --> 00:32:05.759
premiered 1984.

660
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:11.579
So, It's Doctor Who doing what other shows do, as Richard would

661
00:32:11.579 --> 00:32:12.180
always point out.

662
00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:15.480
And that, I think, is part of the reason I don't have a big

663
00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:16.920
problem with the violence in this story.

664
00:32:16.980 --> 00:32:19.619
You know, I've said, I considered this the worst Colin Baker

665
00:32:19.619 --> 00:32:19.980
story.

666
00:32:20.039 --> 00:32:20.940
It's still very watchable.

667
00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:26.099
It's just the long pauses sometimes between anything happening, but

668
00:32:26.099 --> 00:32:28.740
thankfully, those long pauses are filled with excellent

669
00:32:28.740 --> 00:32:29.400
performances.

670
00:32:29.460 --> 00:32:33.359
So when I say it's the worst Colin Baker story, I don't think it's

671
00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:33.539
bad.

672
00:32:33.599 --> 00:32:35.279
I just think.

673
00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:37.980
A 70 minute edit would be lovely.

674
00:32:38.279 --> 00:32:41.519
There's 2 cliffhangers that I want to talk about.

675
00:32:41.579 --> 00:32:45.480
The end of the 45 minute part 2 where Perry is being pursued by

676
00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:46.259
Shockeye.

677
00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:48.720
I think it's more evidence that he's the monster.

678
00:32:48.779 --> 00:32:50.579
He gets the big final.

679
00:32:50.700 --> 00:32:53.880
Yeah, DMI pretty one. and the music and her running away

680
00:32:53.940 --> 00:32:54.420
fantastic.

681
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:59.460
But in the 6 part story in the middle of that episode, of course

682
00:32:59.460 --> 00:33:03.599
we get, I think, one of the best cliffhangers of all time, where I

683
00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:06.059
think the doctor or someone says, like, where is this hacienda?

684
00:33:06.059 --> 00:33:08.099
And Anita goes, it is this way.

685
00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:09.180
They walk off.

686
00:33:13.619 --> 00:33:15.779
I just laughed my head off.

687
00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:17.220
I think it's a fantastic little.

688
00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:20.640
And the very next scene is the 2nd doctor freaking out because he

689
00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:21.539
thinks Jamie's dead.

690
00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:23.700
It's like, well, that's a better cliffhanger, even though we know

691
00:33:23.700 --> 00:33:26.400
Jamie's alive, at least it shows some distress.

692
00:33:26.460 --> 00:33:28.680
But yeah, the hacienda is this way.

693
00:33:28.740 --> 00:33:30.480
I love Anita and Oscar.

694
00:33:30.599 --> 00:33:31.440
Yeah.

695
00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:34.319
That actor is 27 years old, I think.

696
00:33:34.380 --> 00:33:35.339
At that time.

697
00:33:35.400 --> 00:33:36.000
Yeah, yeah.

698
00:33:36.059 --> 00:33:38.039
I don't think this is with us any longer.

699
00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:41.099
I think he's I think he's really good.

700
00:33:41.160 --> 00:33:44.940
I think he's really funny and he helps to reinforce that theme of

701
00:33:44.940 --> 00:33:49.500
human beings being evil because when we 1st see him, he's gassing

702
00:33:49.500 --> 00:33:50.039
moths.

703
00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:51.059
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

704
00:33:51.059 --> 00:33:55.920
And, you know, it's it's telling that that cyanide is used to kill

705
00:33:55.920 --> 00:34:01.680
Shockeye later, but is using poison to kill animals for his

706
00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:02.940
pleasure.

707
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:05.819
And Anita critiques that a little bit.

708
00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:10.619
But he's that kind of typical homesian, you know, huge

709
00:34:10.619 --> 00:34:11.280
performance.

710
00:34:11.340 --> 00:34:12.539
And we've got 2 of them here.

711
00:34:12.599 --> 00:34:14.039
We've got Shockeye as well.

712
00:34:14.099 --> 00:34:18.300
In fact, we get Shockeye and Pat as a fantastic Holmesey and

713
00:34:18.300 --> 00:34:19.019
double act.

714
00:34:19.079 --> 00:34:19.320
Yeah.

715
00:34:19.380 --> 00:34:22.860
I think Oscar's really funny and sort of terribly sweet.

716
00:34:22.920 --> 00:34:26.940
And one of the criticisms that gets levelled against this story is

717
00:34:26.940 --> 00:34:29.820
the way that he's killed in episode three.

718
00:34:29.880 --> 00:34:34.380
And, you know, he doesn't need to be killed, the Spanish truck

719
00:34:34.380 --> 00:34:37.619
driver who gets killed, doesn't need to be killed either.

720
00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:40.320
But Shockeye is a monster.

721
00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:46.440
And in order to make him not just be a comedy panto character, he

722
00:34:46.440 --> 00:34:47.760
does need to kill people.

723
00:34:47.820 --> 00:34:52.440
And I think, you know, the scene where Oscar is killed is funny

724
00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:53.940
and kind of touching.

725
00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:57.719
You know, he's sort of pompous, he's ludicrous belief that he

726
00:34:57.719 --> 00:35:01.619
could ever do a definitive Hamlet. is like terribly sweet.

727
00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:05.880
And a very cruel reference to Matthew Waterhouse, if I say.

728
00:35:05.940 --> 00:35:09.900
But the doctor gets to do a little bit of good acting there and

729
00:35:09.900 --> 00:35:11.159
Perry reacts to it.

730
00:35:11.219 --> 00:35:13.139
It works really well and he's safe.

731
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:14.940
You know, those comedy characters.

732
00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:19.260
Those Christopher Benjamin style characters in a Bob Holmes story

733
00:35:19.260 --> 00:35:20.280
don't get killed.

734
00:35:20.460 --> 00:35:25.019
And so it is homes being cynical and it is homes being nasty.

735
00:35:25.079 --> 00:35:30.659
But I think it's intentional and I don't think it fails.

736
00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:31.679
I think that scene works.

737
00:35:31.800 --> 00:35:34.619
I think so too And it's got to be upsetting.

738
00:35:34.679 --> 00:35:36.539
You know, killing Adrigoff, who cares?

739
00:35:36.599 --> 00:35:38.039
But killing Oscar Botchubi.

740
00:35:38.099 --> 00:35:39.300
You know, we care about that.

741
00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:40.860
That's what drama's supposed to do.

742
00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:46.619
Um, look, I am... going to dissent on a point.

743
00:35:46.679 --> 00:35:51.599
I think the death of Oscar is one of the biggest tone deaf moments

744
00:35:51.599 --> 00:35:57.360
of this entire era. simply because it's a massive missed

745
00:35:57.360 --> 00:35:58.199
opportunity.

746
00:35:58.260 --> 00:36:08.579
His character has been painted and built up as this camp, Hammy ex

747
00:36:07.380 --> 00:36:13.920
actor who's done something in his old theatre group and is in self

748
00:36:13.019 --> 00:36:14.460
imposed exile.

749
00:36:14.519 --> 00:36:17.699
Yeah, like Anita says, maybe the consulate will forgive you or you

750
00:36:17.699 --> 00:36:18.539
on a forthcoming tour.

751
00:36:18.599 --> 00:36:20.880
So we don't know what he's done or to whom he's done it.

752
00:36:20.940 --> 00:36:23.880
Is this around the time Richard Marson was having to fend Gary

753
00:36:23.880 --> 00:36:25.619
Downey off with a scripted time flight?

754
00:36:25.679 --> 00:36:26.760
I wonder if that's a reference.

755
00:36:26.820 --> 00:36:31.440
But every time I watch that scene as a kid, I expect at the end

756
00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:34.260
when Anita's sobbing into his shirt for her to get up, slap him

757
00:36:34.260 --> 00:36:38.519
and say, you're still breathing. and walk off, you know, it feels

758
00:36:38.519 --> 00:36:41.820
to me like that is him doing his hammy death scene because he

759
00:36:41.820 --> 00:36:44.400
thinks he's going to die, but then actually he'll be okay.

760
00:36:44.460 --> 00:36:46.500
But I mean, I think that would work.

761
00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:49.860
Holmes is, well, we've said this before.

762
00:36:49.920 --> 00:36:52.380
Holmes is really cynical and he needs reining in.

763
00:36:52.440 --> 00:36:58.199
And Terrence Dix was able to rein him in during the Pertuy era, and

764
00:36:58.199 --> 00:37:01.980
his scripts, I think, for Pertuy are the best scripts of that

765
00:37:01.980 --> 00:37:02.400
era.

766
00:37:02.460 --> 00:37:06.780
I think Eric Saywood is disinclined probably even to edit him very

767
00:37:06.780 --> 00:37:12.360
much because Eric Saywood has the good taste to realise that he's

768
00:37:12.360 --> 00:37:14.460
an extremely good Doctor Who writer.

769
00:37:14.519 --> 00:37:18.960
But he does tend towards the cynical, and there is a feeling to

770
00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:24.000
botch of his death, which is, I'm going to get the Doctor Who fans

771
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:27.480
here, you know, because Botchubi is a comedy character who should

772
00:37:27.480 --> 00:37:28.079
be safe.

773
00:37:28.139 --> 00:37:30.480
He's going to shock us.

774
00:37:30.539 --> 00:37:33.420
And he actually writes the novelisation for this.

775
00:37:33.480 --> 00:37:34.559
Do you remember this, Todd?

776
00:37:34.619 --> 00:37:36.420
It's the 100th target novelisation.

777
00:37:36.480 --> 00:37:38.280
It's the only one he writes.

778
00:37:38.340 --> 00:37:39.480
It's specially released.

779
00:37:39.539 --> 00:37:42.840
I listen to it reasonably recently because Colin actually reads

780
00:37:42.840 --> 00:37:43.139
it.

781
00:37:43.199 --> 00:37:43.980
Oh, wow.

782
00:37:43.980 --> 00:37:45.480
And he does a great job.

783
00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:46.860
You know, he's got a terrific voice.

784
00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:49.380
He does a terrific 6 doctor impression.

785
00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:50.579
It's really something.

786
00:37:50.940 --> 00:37:57.300
And there is an extremely revoltingly nasty scene where Shockeye

787
00:37:57.300 --> 00:38:02.519
imagines in detail, what it would be like for Perry to be cooked

788
00:38:02.519 --> 00:38:03.539
in an oven.

789
00:38:03.599 --> 00:38:05.460
And it's really, really revolting.

790
00:38:05.579 --> 00:38:08.880
And so Holmes is always tending in that direction and he probably

791
00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:10.320
does need to be reined in.

792
00:38:10.380 --> 00:38:12.539
He's not being reined in here.

793
00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:16.679
And the next script that he does for the program, because a lot of

794
00:38:16.679 --> 00:38:20.639
history's happened between now and then, he's super careful and

795
00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:23.820
actually ends up writing something completely anodyne and fairly

796
00:38:23.820 --> 00:38:24.539
uninteresting.

797
00:38:24.599 --> 00:38:26.699
Here when he's kind of given his head.

798
00:38:26.760 --> 00:38:30.900
Yeah, you know, maybe he goes too far, but it's still, it's Bob

799
00:38:30.900 --> 00:38:33.780
Holmes going too far and that's so much better than, you know

800
00:38:33.780 --> 00:38:35.940
Glenn McCoy going too far.

801
00:38:36.539 --> 00:38:42.599
See, on the one hand, I kind of object because The only other

802
00:38:42.599 --> 00:38:45.420
function that Anita and Oscar have in the plot is showing them

803
00:38:45.420 --> 00:38:48.480
where the hacienda is, and it's not like they're that far away

804
00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:49.139
from it anyway.

805
00:38:49.199 --> 00:38:51.179
So, you know, they probably would have found it themselves without

806
00:38:51.179 --> 00:38:51.539
them.

807
00:38:51.599 --> 00:38:55.619
So it becomes the only function of them in the plot is cannon

808
00:38:55.619 --> 00:38:56.099
fodder.

809
00:38:56.159 --> 00:38:56.579
Right.

810
00:38:56.579 --> 00:39:03.119
But on the other hand, If this is a satire of slasher films.

811
00:39:03.179 --> 00:39:04.800
Anita's the final girl.

812
00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:06.420
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

813
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:11.340
Because, you know, Friday the 13th, Nightmare on Elm Street, too.

814
00:39:11.400 --> 00:39:14.340
There's always a young girl left alive at the end.

815
00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:17.820
The other thing I love about their characters, and because I've

816
00:39:17.820 --> 00:39:20.280
watched this recently, one of Rod's Christmas presents was also

817
00:39:20.280 --> 00:39:23.219
the complete enterprise on Blu-ray, so we've been watching season

818
00:39:23.219 --> 00:39:27.000
one of that, and there's a subplot in season one of a young female

819
00:39:27.000 --> 00:39:30.059
crew member developing a crush on Dr. Flox.

820
00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:34.199
And as the actress says in an interview, she's like, oh, you know

821
00:39:34.199 --> 00:39:37.320
yeah, I could have had a crush on the chief engineer who's a hunk

822
00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:40.679
but Dr. Flox, he's kind of like the comforting older man, uncle

823
00:39:40.679 --> 00:39:42.719
kind of figure, and that's much more interesting to play.

824
00:39:42.780 --> 00:39:46.500
And it's like, you can see that Anita fancies Oscar a little bit

825
00:39:46.500 --> 00:39:50.519
for some reason, like when they're out moth hunting and he doesn't

826
00:39:50.519 --> 00:39:51.960
notice because he's after his boss.

827
00:39:52.019 --> 00:39:55.380
And there's something very sweet and probably gay.

828
00:39:55.440 --> 00:39:59.460
There's something very sweet about those 2 characters together and

829
00:39:59.460 --> 00:40:02.099
when she's bossing him around in the restaurant and whatnot.

830
00:40:02.159 --> 00:40:06.360
But I like how she likes the 6th doctor and gives him kisses and

831
00:40:06.360 --> 00:40:08.639
poor Jamie's left, you know, waiting for his.

832
00:40:08.699 --> 00:40:10.019
I like those little comedy moments.

833
00:40:10.079 --> 00:40:13.739
Yeah, he does get a kiss from Perry, but he kind of, he inflicts

834
00:40:13.739 --> 00:40:14.699
himself on for a bit.

835
00:40:14.760 --> 00:40:18.659
He's always played for comic purposes, really.

836
00:40:18.719 --> 00:40:21.480
Apart from, you know, when he's discovered in his nest in episode

837
00:40:21.480 --> 00:40:21.960
two.

838
00:40:22.019 --> 00:40:27.360
He gets a lot of position coma. yeah An expedition comrade

839
00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:29.460
forgotten about expedition coma.

840
00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:33.719
So we have exposition code, but we have word peril.

841
00:40:33.780 --> 00:40:36.719
We have the most valuable fish in the universe.

842
00:40:37.260 --> 00:40:41.880
The moment this moves from the space station, onto location, around

843
00:40:41.880 --> 00:40:46.139
the hacienda, in the hacienda, all the runarounds down in

844
00:40:46.139 --> 00:40:46.679
Seville.

845
00:40:46.739 --> 00:40:48.360
I just love it.

846
00:40:48.420 --> 00:40:51.840
I just love all that location work, all the bits of dialogue, you

847
00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:55.739
know, double cross Centaurans and, and, oh, I'm just sitting here

848
00:40:55.739 --> 00:40:56.940
listening to you guys loving it.

849
00:40:56.940 --> 00:41:00.119
And I, and I, and as I said earlier in this podcast, I was, I

850
00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:01.320
thought you weren't going to.

851
00:41:01.500 --> 00:41:04.440
And so I'm just so thrilled that is the case.

852
00:41:04.500 --> 00:41:08.880
I think that there's a bit of a problem with the location work in

853
00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:12.480
in that, I think it is a big shame that it's, it's like 17 minutes

854
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:15.719
into episode 3 before we get to Seville, we've been talking about

855
00:41:15.719 --> 00:41:15.960
it.

856
00:41:16.019 --> 00:41:19.440
The scenes in Seville look beautiful, like they look amazing.

857
00:41:19.500 --> 00:41:21.960
All of those scenes in alleyways and stuff.

858
00:41:22.019 --> 00:41:23.519
We've got everyone on location.

859
00:41:23.579 --> 00:41:27.480
I think it's bizarre that Stike and Val get to be on location and

860
00:41:27.480 --> 00:41:30.300
discussing things that they could equally have done in that sort

861
00:41:30.300 --> 00:41:35.400
of giant seller, you know, studio, but instead they're outside the

862
00:41:35.400 --> 00:41:36.719
hacienda having a chat.

863
00:41:36.780 --> 00:41:38.219
I think that's terribly good.

864
00:41:38.340 --> 00:41:43.739
I love seeing Dastari walking through the streets of Seville and

865
00:41:43.739 --> 00:41:45.119
no one really kind of noticing.

866
00:41:45.179 --> 00:41:46.500
I think all of that's really great.

867
00:41:46.619 --> 00:41:49.199
Friends of the podcast, Brian Lindsay and Summermore, have been

868
00:41:49.199 --> 00:41:52.320
there, and they actually said Seville is even more beautiful, and

869
00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:56.820
the locations that they use are literally like little back alleys

870
00:41:56.820 --> 00:41:59.760
and things that don't really show off the city, like, and we think

871
00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:00.300
that's beautiful.

872
00:42:00.420 --> 00:42:01.619
They said you should see the rest of it.

873
00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:06.059
Yeah, they probably did that to avoid avoid tourists and get clean

874
00:42:06.059 --> 00:42:06.420
shots.

875
00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:08.760
I think it takes too long for the 2 doctors to meet.

876
00:42:08.820 --> 00:42:10.739
Like, you really are wanting them to get together.

877
00:42:10.800 --> 00:42:11.880
I would have liked to have seen them.

878
00:42:11.940 --> 00:42:14.519
Perhaps a bit like the 3 doctors where they meet earlier and then

879
00:42:14.519 --> 00:42:16.079
get separated and then come back together.

880
00:42:16.139 --> 00:42:19.559
I mean, it's not until part 3 of the 45 minute thing that we get.

881
00:42:19.619 --> 00:42:22.679
You know that little scene where they sort of they meet briefly

882
00:42:22.679 --> 00:42:26.099
and then you're just going, I want them to talk to each other, you

883
00:42:26.099 --> 00:42:26.219
know?

884
00:42:26.280 --> 00:42:28.199
Yeah, yeah, they get snap wrong.

885
00:42:28.260 --> 00:42:30.480
You know, they look at each other and go snack, which is actually

886
00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:32.400
quite a funny line, but they miss timer.

887
00:42:32.460 --> 00:42:35.280
You can see the actors watching each other to try and get the

888
00:42:35.280 --> 00:42:38.340
timing right and they don't, but we don't go again because it's

889
00:42:38.340 --> 00:42:38.940
Pete them off.

890
00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:39.539
Yeah, exactly.

891
00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:41.039
That's the thing. blame them for that.

892
00:42:41.099 --> 00:42:42.659
I blame Peter more.

893
00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:46.260
I love the explosion of the Santaran spaceship.

894
00:42:46.320 --> 00:42:48.420
It was twice the size that it needed it to be.

895
00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:54.900
If you watch the documentary on the actual DVD, they explain that

896
00:42:54.900 --> 00:42:58.380
they had to buy pyrotechnics in, they didn't, they couldn't get it

897
00:42:58.380 --> 00:43:01.260
into the country and then it was all, it was too big to exploit.

898
00:43:01.320 --> 00:43:03.239
You know, the typical thing where it's like, oh, yes, it's only

899
00:43:03.239 --> 00:43:05.880
going to be, like, yay big, and then it's suddenly 3 times the

900
00:43:05.880 --> 00:43:08.820
size and people down the road thought there was some massive

901
00:43:08.820 --> 00:43:09.599
problem, you know?

902
00:43:09.659 --> 00:43:10.559
Yeah, yeah.

903
00:43:10.619 --> 00:43:13.079
I think I think it's because surprisingly enough, even then they

904
00:43:13.079 --> 00:43:15.179
didn't like explosives going on planes.

905
00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:19.260
But I gather it's also they had a certain budget for it based on

906
00:43:19.260 --> 00:43:22.260
what they would pay in England, but for some reason, explosives

907
00:43:22.260 --> 00:43:25.619
are much cheaper in Spain at the time with the exchange rate.

908
00:43:25.679 --> 00:43:28.739
So instead of going, okay, well, you know, we were going to buy X

909
00:43:28.739 --> 00:43:33.179
amount or buy X amount. like, oh, we can buy 3 X. Okay, let's

910
00:43:33.179 --> 00:43:34.199
let's do that.

911
00:43:34.260 --> 00:43:37.500
What's the end of episode 5 in the six-part version?

912
00:43:37.619 --> 00:43:39.119
Is that the doctor putting his head in that fountain?

913
00:43:39.179 --> 00:43:42.360
So the doctor starts fantasising about eating cats.

914
00:43:43.559 --> 00:43:48.239
And then he, uh, and then he sort of douses his head in a fountain

915
00:43:48.239 --> 00:43:51.360
and says something about how it's only going to get worse and that

916
00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:52.860
was our kind of cliffhanger.

917
00:43:52.920 --> 00:43:55.019
I think all of that stuff is fine.

918
00:43:55.079 --> 00:43:58.260
You know, it doesn't really go anywhere, but it puts an extra bit

919
00:43:58.260 --> 00:43:59.460
of pressure on the 6th doctor.

920
00:43:59.519 --> 00:44:03.780
You know, there's something about Colin's performance here in this

921
00:44:03.780 --> 00:44:09.840
story, which I really like, and I really like him on location, and

922
00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:12.900
it turns out when he's not in a garish studio set trying to

923
00:44:12.900 --> 00:44:15.300
outshout the studio lighting.

924
00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:20.159
Uh, and when he's just on location in a normal place, he plays it

925
00:44:20.159 --> 00:44:20.820
down.

926
00:44:20.820 --> 00:44:25.079
And initially, I had thought it was because it was really hot and

927
00:44:25.079 --> 00:44:27.780
he didn't have the energy to kind of do his normal kind of

928
00:44:27.780 --> 00:44:28.619
overacting.

929
00:44:28.619 --> 00:44:32.460
But he'll do it again in Revelation of the Daleks, where he gets

930
00:44:32.460 --> 00:44:37.019
an entire episode where he's only on location, and it's really

931
00:44:37.019 --> 00:44:37.619
cold there.

932
00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:38.760
So it's not the temperature.

933
00:44:38.820 --> 00:44:42.659
I think it is something to do with just, it's easier to act on

934
00:44:42.659 --> 00:44:45.900
location because you're in a real situation, and there's a

935
00:44:45.900 --> 00:44:49.079
temptation, when you're in a kind of crummy light entertainment

936
00:44:49.079 --> 00:44:50.579
set, to go big.

937
00:44:50.639 --> 00:44:54.780
And Colin is still recognisably the 6th doctor in those scenes, but

938
00:44:54.780 --> 00:44:59.280
there's just something underplayed about it, and I do wish he'd

939
00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:02.099
underplayed it more because he is charming and he is funny.

940
00:45:02.159 --> 00:45:05.639
And even when he's being a little bit obnoxious, he's not

941
00:45:05.639 --> 00:45:09.539
unlikeable, and I guess it goes back to my idea that making the

942
00:45:09.539 --> 00:45:13.320
doctor unlikeable was always a terrible idea, particularly when

943
00:45:13.320 --> 00:45:18.239
it's clear that JNT casts Colin because Colin is charming, you

944
00:45:18.239 --> 00:45:20.219
know, and witty, you know, and clever.

945
00:45:20.280 --> 00:45:23.159
Do you think it also helps the fact that he's not wearing the coat

946
00:45:23.159 --> 00:45:23.760
on location?

947
00:45:23.820 --> 00:45:26.760
I really like the waistcoat.

948
00:45:26.820 --> 00:45:27.539
It's a good one.

949
00:45:27.599 --> 00:45:27.900
Yeah.

950
00:45:27.960 --> 00:45:31.739
It's better than Pete's horrible woolly one on Lanzarote.

951
00:45:31.800 --> 00:45:36.059
There's a big finish Doctor Who box set called The Six Doctor, The

952
00:45:36.059 --> 00:45:40.019
Last Adventure, which is a story arc of 4 stories at different

953
00:45:40.019 --> 00:45:42.900
points in the Six Doctor's Life leading up to his regeneration.

954
00:45:42.960 --> 00:45:46.619
The one with India Fisher as Charlie Pollard.

955
00:45:46.679 --> 00:45:48.719
A fan did a fan cover of that.

956
00:45:48.780 --> 00:45:53.699
And because it's referred to, I believe in the script, it's been a

957
00:45:53.699 --> 00:45:55.739
while since I listened to it, the doctor actually loses coaching

958
00:45:55.739 --> 00:45:59.519
it, in the cover, the artist has put him on in that waistcoat.

959
00:45:59.579 --> 00:46:02.219
And it's like, yeah, we need more of that as well.

960
00:46:02.280 --> 00:46:05.820
There exists a customised action figure of him in that waistcoat.

961
00:46:05.880 --> 00:46:08.039
Wonderful customiser called Selky.

962
00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:10.920
It is such a nice costume touch and yeah, wouldn't wouldn't it

963
00:46:10.920 --> 00:46:13.320
have been great to actually just have a doctor without a coat for

964
00:46:13.320 --> 00:46:13.800
a little while.

965
00:46:13.860 --> 00:46:15.539
You know, we've got another 2 stories this season.

966
00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:20.340
Let's just keep him in that And it would have been an in universe

967
00:46:20.340 --> 00:46:23.099
explanation as to why we're getting rid of the coat.

968
00:46:23.159 --> 00:46:28.559
In fact, it is kind of boring, isn't it, that all of JNT's doctors

969
00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:32.460
until Sylvester McCoy all have knee length coats, as if that's

970
00:46:32.460 --> 00:46:33.480
what the doctor has to wear.

971
00:46:33.539 --> 00:46:35.820
He has to wear knee length of coats, but they're all sort of

972
00:46:35.820 --> 00:46:38.340
different colours, and that's how we tell the doctors apart.

973
00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:41.880
And I think there are problems with Sylvester McCoy's costume, but

974
00:46:41.880 --> 00:46:44.699
I was so relieved to get rid of the knee length code.

975
00:46:44.760 --> 00:46:49.559
And here, I really think that Collins costume works here.

976
00:46:49.619 --> 00:46:52.559
I love the tie that he's got jammed in his pocket that sort of

977
00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:55.139
trails around behind him when he's running, that looks really

978
00:46:55.139 --> 00:46:55.320
good.

979
00:46:55.440 --> 00:47:00.420
There's some common criticisms of this story we haven't mentioned

980
00:47:00.420 --> 00:47:01.800
so I thought I might mention some of them now.

981
00:47:01.860 --> 00:47:05.699
Nathan, you did touch upon briefly earlier, the possibility of, you

982
00:47:05.699 --> 00:47:09.599
know, kind of racist to androgums, and people often cite that bit

983
00:47:09.599 --> 00:47:12.780
at the beginning where the 2nd doctor is saying, you know, I don't

984
00:47:12.780 --> 00:47:14.280
care about the pedigree of an androgum.

985
00:47:14.340 --> 00:47:16.500
I'm a timelord, and people are like, oh no, the 2nd doctor

986
00:47:16.500 --> 00:47:17.159
wouldn't do that.

987
00:47:17.219 --> 00:47:21.000
It's like, well, he would slam a lawyer's head into a desk.

988
00:47:21.119 --> 00:47:24.059
He would gun ice warriors down with a big gun.

989
00:47:24.119 --> 00:47:25.559
I mean, that's part of the point.

990
00:47:25.619 --> 00:47:26.340
It's about monsters.

991
00:47:26.460 --> 00:47:28.980
Yeah, he would certainly throw his weight back.

992
00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:31.860
Look, he does exactly the same thing in the war games when he's

993
00:47:31.860 --> 00:47:33.719
pretending to be someone from the War office.

994
00:47:33.780 --> 00:47:35.039
You know, I have no problem with that scene.

995
00:47:35.099 --> 00:47:38.579
And later on the 6th doctor says, we've got no time to worry about

996
00:47:38.579 --> 00:47:40.079
dead Andrew comes Perry.

997
00:47:40.139 --> 00:47:43.440
It's like, you might think, oh, that's cruel and that's harsh.

998
00:47:43.500 --> 00:47:45.059
It's like, what else is he going to do?

999
00:47:45.119 --> 00:47:46.739
I think it's deliberate.

1000
00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:50.039
I think it is deliberate that Holmes has created a race of

1001
00:47:50.039 --> 00:47:53.039
monsters that just look like people and is now critiquing a

1002
00:47:53.039 --> 00:47:55.800
problematic attitude towards monsters that the show's always had.

1003
00:47:55.860 --> 00:48:00.119
And finally, the tall Santarans that people criticise.

1004
00:48:00.179 --> 00:48:01.739
I think that Son Tarans are pretty terrible.

1005
00:48:01.800 --> 00:48:05.940
They look terrible and the, I don't think they've got the mask

1006
00:48:05.940 --> 00:48:10.860
right since, well, essentially since the Santarin experiment

1007
00:48:10.860 --> 00:48:14.099
because it always seemed like Kevin Lindsay's head was kind of

1008
00:48:14.099 --> 00:48:17.159
encased in a big fibreglass thing, which is because it was.

1009
00:48:17.219 --> 00:48:23.460
Whereas here, when Cassini's throwing caronic acid on... like Val

1010
00:48:23.460 --> 00:48:25.619
kind of deflates because he's killed.

1011
00:48:25.679 --> 00:48:29.400
But Styke puts his hand on his head and inadvertently like

1012
00:48:29.400 --> 00:48:31.920
squashes the mask, he presses too hard.

1013
00:48:31.980 --> 00:48:34.260
And so I don't think the masks look very good.

1014
00:48:34.320 --> 00:48:38.280
And they're tall, you know, we never go back to that, and I don't

1015
00:48:38.280 --> 00:48:39.480
think that matters all that much.

1016
00:48:39.539 --> 00:48:42.780
And they're funny and pompous and silly military characters of the

1017
00:48:42.780 --> 00:48:44.039
kind that Holmes creates all the time.

1018
00:48:44.099 --> 00:48:47.219
I love stokes scenes with the 2nd doctor.

1019
00:48:47.280 --> 00:48:50.639
Like when he's saying the loneliness of command.

1020
00:48:50.699 --> 00:48:53.280
And the doctor's like, why don't you retire?

1021
00:48:53.340 --> 00:48:55.500
I may have made a miscalculation.

1022
00:48:55.559 --> 00:48:56.639
He scratches his head.

1023
00:48:56.760 --> 00:48:59.880
But the tall thing, way back when?

1024
00:49:00.059 --> 00:49:04.440
In the Time Warrior, the doctor does refer to them as being from a

1025
00:49:04.440 --> 00:49:06.480
high gravity planet, which is why they're so short.

1026
00:49:06.539 --> 00:49:09.179
So if they're coming, if they know they're coming to a planet.

1027
00:49:09.239 --> 00:49:15.360
With lower gravity, they might breed a special tallest on Tarin.

1028
00:49:15.420 --> 00:49:15.960
I mean why not?

1029
00:49:16.019 --> 00:49:19.800
And also, this is the 1st time where we haven't just gone, oh

1030
00:49:19.800 --> 00:49:20.880
they've got a probic event.

1031
00:49:20.940 --> 00:49:21.719
Let's stick something in it.

1032
00:49:21.780 --> 00:49:23.760
Yeah, it's because they're not the monsters here.

1033
00:49:23.820 --> 00:49:24.960
They're just characters.

1034
00:49:25.019 --> 00:49:26.820
And there's some cars...

1035
00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:27.539
Yeah, I do too.

1036
00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:28.139
I think that's great.

1037
00:49:28.199 --> 00:49:31.139
When was the last time they were in the show, the invasion of

1038
00:49:31.139 --> 00:49:31.380
time?

1039
00:49:31.440 --> 00:49:33.599
Look at how great they were in that.

1040
00:49:33.659 --> 00:49:35.460
Yeah, terrible masks, again.

1041
00:49:35.519 --> 00:49:38.460
Yeah, at least here they've got they've got character again.

1042
00:49:38.519 --> 00:49:43.260
Because store didn't really have a character, you know, he just

1043
00:49:43.260 --> 00:49:44.639
got to say doctor.

1044
00:49:44.699 --> 00:49:46.380
Going back to your point you made.

1045
00:49:46.440 --> 00:49:48.900
I love the interaction with both the 2nd doctor and the 6th

1046
00:49:48.900 --> 00:49:49.260
doctor.

1047
00:49:49.320 --> 00:49:50.940
I think there's some really witty lines.

1048
00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:53.159
I love the fact that the 6 doctor fools them into thinking that

1049
00:49:53.159 --> 00:49:56.280
that, the module is working, you know?

1050
00:49:56.340 --> 00:49:58.679
And even as a kid, I was fooled by that.

1051
00:49:58.739 --> 00:50:02.340
I thought, oh, oh, okay, it's all primed and ready to go, but of

1052
00:50:02.340 --> 00:50:03.599
course, yeah, it's not.

1053
00:50:03.659 --> 00:50:07.260
It's another thing of Holmes just helping himself to continuity.

1054
00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:11.699
So the time lords have symbiotic nuclei in their heads that helps

1055
00:50:11.699 --> 00:50:13.920
them operate the TARDIS, which is something that we will never

1056
00:50:13.920 --> 00:50:17.400
refer to again, and have never referred to before.

1057
00:50:17.460 --> 00:50:19.139
But it is his usual habit.

1058
00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:22.139
I mean, he invents timelords having 2 hearts.

1059
00:50:22.199 --> 00:50:24.119
He invents the 12 regeneration limit.

1060
00:50:24.179 --> 00:50:25.860
He invents the planet Galafray.

1061
00:50:25.860 --> 00:50:28.920
So here he's inventing something else.

1062
00:50:28.980 --> 00:50:32.219
This one doesn't take, but it is just another example of that.

1063
00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:35.159
Can I talk about the ratings?

1064
00:50:35.460 --> 00:50:42.000
Episode one got 660000000 viewers, which is down by .7 from the

1065
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:42.719
previous week.

1066
00:50:42.780 --> 00:50:45.179
And it placed 92nd.

1067
00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:52.079
Episode two, 6000000 viewers, which is the lowest rating of the

1068
00:50:52.079 --> 00:50:54.179
season, and it came 90th.

1069
00:50:54.480 --> 00:50:59.579
And it's after that episode that Michael Grade axed the show.

1070
00:51:01.320 --> 00:51:03.539
Episode three.

1071
00:51:03.719 --> 00:51:10.440
6.9 million, 66th on the chart. 25 places higher.

1072
00:51:10.860 --> 00:51:16.199
So weird, it's all over the place, because timelash actually gets

1073
00:51:16.199 --> 00:51:18.599
higher ratings, but its placings are all over the place as well.

1074
00:51:18.659 --> 00:51:21.960
The big criticisms of Doctor Who that lead to the cancellation are

1075
00:51:21.960 --> 00:51:24.239
happening as early as season 21, aren't they?

1076
00:51:24.300 --> 00:51:28.320
Things like Warriors of the D, which I didn't like very much.

1077
00:51:28.440 --> 00:51:33.119
But I didn't think was hugely terrible, but it does have some

1078
00:51:33.119 --> 00:51:36.000
pretty bad production problems, like the marker.

1079
00:51:36.059 --> 00:51:39.360
But, you know, grades come in and, you know, he doesn't like the

1080
00:51:39.360 --> 00:51:39.599
show.

1081
00:51:39.659 --> 00:51:43.079
I mean, if you look at the ratings, if you purely, you know

1082
00:51:43.079 --> 00:51:46.320
8.900000 for the 1st episode, we're now down to 6000000 with 2

1083
00:51:46.320 --> 00:51:50.639
doctors, you know, he's looking for ammunition, fans are already

1084
00:51:50.639 --> 00:51:53.519
criticising it for violence, et cetera.

1085
00:51:53.579 --> 00:51:56.219
And, you know, so he pulls the pin.

1086
00:51:56.280 --> 00:52:00.420
Even though it's 10 weeks away from next season and they've

1087
00:52:00.420 --> 00:52:03.360
already lined up scripts and even location work for the 1st

1088
00:52:03.360 --> 00:52:03.599
story.

1089
00:52:03.659 --> 00:52:06.599
And I believe even contracted Michael Goff.

1090
00:52:06.659 --> 00:52:07.739
Oh, really?

1091
00:52:07.800 --> 00:52:07.980
Wow.

1092
00:52:08.039 --> 00:52:09.300
What can I say?

1093
00:52:09.420 --> 00:52:10.260
That's where we're at.

1094
00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:13.019
If the pin hadn't been pulled, Would the ratings have continued to

1095
00:52:13.019 --> 00:52:13.500
slide?

1096
00:52:13.559 --> 00:52:16.380
Because actually from this point in, there's this gradual increase

1097
00:52:16.380 --> 00:52:17.519
to the end of the season.

1098
00:52:17.579 --> 00:52:20.579
Yeah, because people realise, 0 my god, it's going.

1099
00:52:20.639 --> 00:52:21.480
You know.

1100
00:52:21.539 --> 00:52:27.360
One of the criticisms Michael Gray raised. was shortly after

1101
00:52:27.360 --> 00:52:29.219
becoming controller of BBC one.

1102
00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:31.860
He just switched on the TV one night, didn't actually know what

1103
00:52:31.860 --> 00:52:33.900
was on, and it was Doctor Who.

1104
00:52:33.960 --> 00:52:37.139
You know, he's never gone into detail about what story it was, but

1105
00:52:37.139 --> 00:52:40.440
he's like, Return of the Jedi has just come out.

1106
00:52:40.619 --> 00:52:45.239
And we're putting out this with cardboard sets and right angles

1107
00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:48.480
everywhere and bright flood studio lighting.

1108
00:52:48.599 --> 00:52:51.000
We can't afford to compete.

1109
00:52:51.000 --> 00:52:52.920
And that's why I cancelled it.

1110
00:52:52.980 --> 00:52:54.059
That's what he says.

1111
00:52:54.119 --> 00:52:56.760
There are more scurrilous rumours as to the reason.

1112
00:52:56.820 --> 00:53:01.139
I mean, I do think that there's a general tiredness due to the

1113
00:53:01.139 --> 00:53:07.679
fact that John Nathan Turner's been on the show since 1977.

1114
00:53:07.920 --> 00:53:09.179
Well, since...

1115
00:53:09.179 --> 00:53:10.260
Tallens of Wing China.

1116
00:53:10.320 --> 00:53:10.980
Dang, yeah.

1117
00:53:11.039 --> 00:53:11.519
76.

1118
00:53:11.880 --> 00:53:16.199
And so he's been doing it for a really long time, like getting on

1119
00:53:16.199 --> 00:53:18.780
for 10 years at this point.

1120
00:53:18.840 --> 00:53:24.599
And he's not someone with much vision about how the show should

1121
00:53:24.599 --> 00:53:26.460
work as television.

1122
00:53:26.519 --> 00:53:30.300
And no one's really thinking about why we're still doing it.

1123
00:53:30.360 --> 00:53:33.900
I think we've made this point before, yeah. that we're doing an

1124
00:53:33.900 --> 00:53:34.500
out of habit.

1125
00:53:34.559 --> 00:53:39.179
And it really, really did need by this point a new...

1126
00:53:39.179 --> 00:53:40.679
Producer and script editor.

1127
00:53:40.739 --> 00:53:41.460
Yeah, yeah.

1128
00:53:41.519 --> 00:53:44.519
I mean, I know possibly not on this podcast.

1129
00:53:44.639 --> 00:53:48.599
I can't remember, but I know speaking with you guys, that I have

1130
00:53:48.599 --> 00:53:53.400
at times compared the Matt Smith era to the Colin Baker era in

1131
00:53:53.400 --> 00:53:55.739
that it seems to me at times you have a great actor in the role.

1132
00:53:55.800 --> 00:54:00.659
But, They're not being given great material.

1133
00:54:00.719 --> 00:54:06.659
But I will say that one thing I could never accuse Stephen Moffatt

1134
00:54:06.659 --> 00:54:11.880
of, is not having a clear vision of what he wants to do.

1135
00:54:11.940 --> 00:54:13.920
Oh, look, we're getting ahead of ourselves.

1136
00:54:14.340 --> 00:54:15.719
I don't think I would agree with that.

1137
00:54:15.780 --> 00:54:20.639
I think you can see Moffatt flailing and not sure of what to do.

1138
00:54:20.699 --> 00:54:22.380
But that's the thing.

1139
00:54:22.440 --> 00:54:25.500
JNT never seems to have a creative vision.

1140
00:54:25.559 --> 00:54:28.619
He leaves that up to the script editor, which, with Christopher

1141
00:54:28.619 --> 00:54:30.360
Hamilton Bidmeade, was absolutely fine.

1142
00:54:30.420 --> 00:54:33.780
I'm currently reading Totally Tasteless, the Life of John Nathan

1143
00:54:33.780 --> 00:54:35.579
Turner by Richard Marson.

1144
00:54:35.639 --> 00:54:39.059
And there's a bit in that where Christopher Bidman talks about why

1145
00:54:39.059 --> 00:54:42.480
he left the show and basically it was because, you know, he had

1146
00:54:42.480 --> 00:54:43.380
this great vision.

1147
00:54:43.440 --> 00:54:48.059
He had plans for the show beyond his season that he did, but he

1148
00:54:48.059 --> 00:54:52.500
viewed his role and sort of his role on paper was just to

1149
00:54:52.500 --> 00:54:53.760
technically edit the scripts.

1150
00:54:53.820 --> 00:54:55.980
The Doctor Who script editor is never that.

1151
00:54:56.039 --> 00:54:59.219
And he quite rightly said, look, I'm doing far more work than

1152
00:54:59.219 --> 00:54:59.460
that.

1153
00:54:59.519 --> 00:55:01.019
Can I have a rise?

1154
00:55:01.260 --> 00:55:07.079
And the head of cereals just said, look, It's the BBC, you know

1155
00:55:07.079 --> 00:55:09.960
you get paid for your bracket and he kind of said, okay, look, that

1156
00:55:09.960 --> 00:55:11.219
is perfectly fair, but I'm going to go.

1157
00:55:11.639 --> 00:55:15.960
Eric Saywood, as I've said before, if he had only been script

1158
00:55:15.960 --> 00:55:19.079
editor for 2 years, I think he would be remembered far more fondly

1159
00:55:19.079 --> 00:55:20.699
than he is.

1160
00:55:20.760 --> 00:55:22.440
And I'm not saying that's a universal thing.

1161
00:55:22.500 --> 00:55:25.260
I know there are people who appreciate his work greatly, just as

1162
00:55:25.260 --> 00:55:27.900
there are people who don't rate Stephen Moffatt highly, and there

1163
00:55:27.900 --> 00:55:30.300
are people who think he's the greatest producer of the show ever

1164
00:55:30.300 --> 00:55:31.380
had, and there's people in between.

1165
00:55:32.639 --> 00:55:38.159
Eric Saywood's vision, like anyone's vision, is limited to a set

1166
00:55:38.159 --> 00:55:38.820
amount of time.

1167
00:55:38.880 --> 00:55:43.500
And I think with this season, we've kind of gone, even further

1168
00:55:43.500 --> 00:55:46.380
than the furthest we can go with it and the show is starting to

1169
00:55:46.380 --> 00:55:48.719
repeat itself, unfortunately.

1170
00:55:48.780 --> 00:55:51.059
And that's a big shame for Colin, because Colin is bringing

1171
00:55:51.059 --> 00:55:52.920
something new, but he's bringing something new to stay on

1172
00:55:52.920 --> 00:55:53.219
material.

1173
00:55:53.340 --> 00:55:56.699
Yeah, I'm going to disagree with you about, say, but I'm going to

1174
00:55:56.699 --> 00:55:58.260
save it for 2 episodes time.

1175
00:55:58.320 --> 00:56:01.980
I think say it's vision for the show is changing visibly during

1176
00:56:01.980 --> 00:56:03.599
the Colin Baker era.

1177
00:56:03.659 --> 00:56:07.860
And I think it's changing a bit for the better, but I do think all

1178
00:56:07.860 --> 00:56:10.440
of the things, all of the horrible, horrible things I've been

1179
00:56:10.440 --> 00:56:12.960
saying about him over the last few episodes are true.

1180
00:56:13.019 --> 00:56:14.699
He wasn't experienced enough.

1181
00:56:14.760 --> 00:56:16.199
He's not quite talented enough.

1182
00:56:16.260 --> 00:56:20.579
He has some good instincts, like recognising that Bob Holmes is a

1183
00:56:20.579 --> 00:56:22.320
great Doctor Who scriptwriter.

1184
00:56:22.380 --> 00:56:26.940
But he's a problem and I'd like to blame him for everything.

1185
00:56:26.940 --> 00:56:28.619
It's going wrong in the whole world.

1186
00:56:28.679 --> 00:56:31.079
Moffatt, Delta and the Bannerman.

1187
00:56:31.139 --> 00:56:31.920
Yeah, global warming.

1188
00:56:31.980 --> 00:56:33.960
Eric Roberts.

1189
00:56:53.099 --> 00:56:57.840
Well, while we go off to, um, whip up a batch of nut roast rolls

1190
00:56:57.840 --> 00:57:02.460
don't forget to come back to ask next week as we explore that

1191
00:57:02.460 --> 00:57:05.340
anagrammical Doctor Who story, Shamelit.

1192
00:57:05.340 --> 00:57:10.019
Until then, we will be opening a poll with this episode.

1193
00:57:10.079 --> 00:57:12.000
Now, quick update.

1194
00:57:12.059 --> 00:57:14.820
We haven't forgotten, we've promised you a commentary on enemy of

1195
00:57:14.820 --> 00:57:15.119
the world.

1196
00:57:15.179 --> 00:57:18.960
The reason we haven't recorded that yet is a couple of weeks ago

1197
00:57:18.960 --> 00:57:23.280
Richard actually had an injury which has left it difficult for him

1198
00:57:23.280 --> 00:57:24.659
to attend recording.

1199
00:57:24.719 --> 00:57:27.900
So we will be releasing that Patrick Trouton commentary at the end

1200
00:57:27.900 --> 00:57:28.559
of this season.

1201
00:57:28.619 --> 00:57:32.760
We will also be releasing shortly after that Our John Pertwee

1202
00:57:32.760 --> 00:57:33.360
commentary.

1203
00:57:33.420 --> 00:57:35.219
So you know how it works by now.

1204
00:57:35.280 --> 00:57:39.659
We've all nominated a story, and we would like you to go ahead and

1205
00:57:39.659 --> 00:57:40.260
vote for those.

1206
00:57:40.320 --> 00:57:42.239
So I have nominated Spearhead from space.

1207
00:57:42.300 --> 00:57:44.639
I have nominated Death to the Daleks.

1208
00:57:44.699 --> 00:57:46.440
I'm going to nominate the 3 doctors.

1209
00:57:46.440 --> 00:57:49.019
And Richard has nominated the mutants.

1210
00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:52.079
So those are our 4 stories.

1211
00:57:52.139 --> 00:57:55.920
No, I thought we had an agreement. 4 episodes stories only.

1212
00:57:56.340 --> 00:58:00.119
You do realise that now that you've done that, everyone's going to

1213
00:58:00.119 --> 00:58:00.960
vote for the mutants.

1214
00:58:01.019 --> 00:58:03.119
I think you should cut this whole bit out.

1215
00:58:03.179 --> 00:58:04.920
Yes, yes, this gets cut.

1216
00:58:05.039 --> 00:58:08.039
I almost nominated Inferno, but I didn't.

1217
00:58:08.519 --> 00:58:12.059
However, we've also thought about the fact that there's not enough

1218
00:58:12.059 --> 00:58:15.539
Colin Baker to discuss on the podcast.

1219
00:58:15.599 --> 00:58:17.940
So at some point in the future.

1220
00:58:18.119 --> 00:58:20.340
We haven't decided exactly when this is gonna go out.

1221
00:58:20.400 --> 00:58:23.880
We are going to have a 6 doctor big finish special.

1222
00:58:23.940 --> 00:58:26.760
So we're going to be reminding you every episode until then which

1223
00:58:26.760 --> 00:58:28.440
6 doctor stories we'll be discussing.

1224
00:58:28.500 --> 00:58:32.400
So we recommend you go along to the big finish website, bigfinish

1225
00:58:31.559 --> 00:58:33.840
com to download these.

1226
00:58:33.900 --> 00:58:35.219
So Todd has nominated.

1227
00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:36.480
The one doctor.

1228
00:58:36.539 --> 00:58:37.980
Nathan has nominated?

1229
00:58:38.039 --> 00:58:38.820
Jubilee.

1230
00:58:38.880 --> 00:58:41.699
Richard has nominated Chris Cross, which is one of the newer

1231
00:58:41.699 --> 00:58:43.619
stories, featuring Miranda Raisin.

1232
00:58:43.679 --> 00:58:48.059
And I have nominated Doctor Who and the Pirates, and we will have

1233
00:58:48.059 --> 00:58:50.639
links to all of those on the website as well.

1234
00:58:50.699 --> 00:58:52.559
To stay up to date with all of that.

1235
00:58:52.619 --> 00:58:55.320
Don't forget to check out flightthrough entirety.sexy, flight

1236
00:58:55.320 --> 00:58:59.159
through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter

1237
00:58:59.159 --> 00:59:00.960
over on Bondfinger.

1238
00:59:01.019 --> 00:59:03.599
We have recently finished the Roger Moore era of James Bond.

1239
00:59:03.659 --> 00:59:06.000
So we have all the Roger Moores, all the Sean Connery, including

1240
00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:09.119
Never Say Never Again, and on a Majesty's Secret Service and

1241
00:59:09.119 --> 00:59:11.099
Casino Royale, 1967.

1242
00:59:12.059 --> 00:59:14.699
So do check that out, Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and

1243
00:59:14.699 --> 00:59:16.679
iTunes and Bondfinger cast on Twitter.

1244
00:59:16.739 --> 00:59:21.119
Until we see you next week, may no one deny you your red

1245
00:59:21.119 --> 00:59:21.719
eyebrows.

1246
00:59:21.780 --> 00:59:23.159
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1247
00:59:23.219 --> 00:59:23.940
Good night.

1248
00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:24.719
See you soon.

1249
00:59:30.780 --> 00:59:34.559
That was Flight Through Entirety with Todd BLB, Nathan Bottomley

1250
00:59:34.559 --> 00:59:37.320
Brendan Jones, theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1251
00:59:37.380 --> 00:59:41.039
This episode, let's stick something in it, was recorded on the

1252
00:59:41.039 --> 00:59:42.840
11th of February 2017.

1253
00:59:43.019 --> 00:59:45.659
The next episode will be released on February 26th.

1254
00:59:45.719 --> 00:59:49.860
I taught him earwig nuclear for 6 months, and it still knows more

1255
00:59:49.860 --> 00:59:51.420
about uranium than Donald Trump.

1256
00:59:57.539 --> 01:00:00.599
Serverland is actually the only person I've ever cosplaying.

1257
01:00:00.599 --> 01:00:04.980
And I had like black press on nails and everything.

1258
01:00:05.039 --> 01:00:06.000
It was really something.

1259
01:00:06.059 --> 01:00:08.219
You fool.