WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 12:08:21

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast, which not only doesn't exist, but is

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only programmed to act like a dizzy day, not sound like one.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Todd.

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And we are going to be talking about today those 18 months where

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Doctor Who was off the air. aside from the 18 months where it was

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off the air between Matt Smith and Peter Capaldi and between

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Picapaldi season.

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No, not that 18 months, we're talking 1985, 1986.

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And to that end we're kicking off with Doctor Who's 1st official

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radio production slipback.

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Now, now, now!

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It wasn't so bad in November. 22 years ago.

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There was a beach box in Junkyard.

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We didn't know where it would go.

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But old man took to teachers.

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Into time and space.

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It started all the legend That no other could remain.

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I quite like this.

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Yes, written by Eric Saywood, and broadcast as six 10 minute

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episodes between July and August 85, 2 episodes at a time.

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In a sort of, it was a kids show called Pirate Radio or something

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like that.

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Yeah, Pirate Radio 4.

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Right.

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And yeah, it was a weekly morning kids show and roughly the

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episodes went out at 10 AM and 1130 AM, but there's no kind of

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official documentation because it was a live show and it was just

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right, we finished this segment.

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Now we're moving on to this much like this podcast.

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So I actually owned it as a cassette tape that was released, I

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think, probably as part of the BBC radio collection that released

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cassette tapes of missing stories and that kind of thing.

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But it was in a 2 pack with Genesis of the Daleks.

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Remember that sort of famous 13, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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So it was Genesis of the Daleks and Slip Back.

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And I think it may therefore be the Colin Baker story that I've

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experienced more often than any other Colin Baker story because I

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just used to play it in the car all the time.

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Wow.

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Now, anyone who's not familiar with the premise of this story.

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It was six, 10 minute episodes, as we mentioned, it has the six

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doctor Colin Baker.

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It has Nicola Bryant landing on a spaceship where there's a

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rampaging monster on the loose.

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There's a computer with split personality.

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There is a ship's captain breeding a disease on his own body to

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wipe out the rest of the crew, and there's an art thief.

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So I think it's safe to say that we have Eric Saywood's usual

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thing of let's tell a story about anyone except the doctor.

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Despite that, though, the doctor and Perry are in it sort of quite

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a lot.

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And I think because because it's for kids and because, you know

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it's the only Doctor Who we have in this period.

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It is, it does go out after the cancellations announced, doesn't

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it?

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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So it's the only Doctor Who that we're going to have for some

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time.

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So he does sort of foreground the doctor, but there is a lot else

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going on here.

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It's that late period, say, where it's not all about trying to

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redo earth shock.

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It's much more fun and here he's very, very definitely ripping off

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hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy.

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Yeah, although we do have the line on this ship, we execute

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stowaways.

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Yes, that's good.

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On this ship, we killed mad.

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Right.

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Well, see, I don't really know hitchhikers very well at all.

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I actually think that this is a rip off of one of the missing

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episode stories, song of Menatra. song of the space whale, where

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the Dr. and Perry actually land on a ship and are pursued by a

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creature in the tunnels and there's a mad captain on the ship and

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then there's a few officers after the 2 of them in the tunnels

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which will actually meet this creature and that's sort of a lot of

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the plot of episode one of song of Menuptra have done by Big

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Finishes as these missing episodes.

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So I just, when I listened to this, and I listened to that, I went

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oh, there's a lot of parallels there.

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I mean, obviously it's different because this particular ship's

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captain played by Valentine Dial, wants to meet Perry, he actually

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finds her, is told that she's a very beautiful woman.

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I mean, it's the same old tropes that Eric likes to do.

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Nicola actually sounds like Perry in this.

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Like, you know, she's still got the accent from the 85 season.

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And I think the music is very much like not, Well, it's 1985.

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It is the same music.

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It's not, you know, trying to be anything different, which I

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really like.

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The ship's computer.

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Oh, dear God.

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You see, that is a hitchhikers thing.

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So the thing that it takes from hitchhikers is a sort of chatty

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ships computer with an American accent and a sort of morose robot

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servitor, and so all of that sort of stuff.

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And when we talk about the novelisation, the parallels are even

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more striking, he's really, really desperate to do hitchhiker's

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guy into the galaxy, which is really the model for kind of, you

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know, radio science fiction in this period.

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And what amazed me was for years.

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I thought the computer was Sandra Dickinson, who played trillion

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in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, and of course, is Peter

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Davidson's ex-wife, but it's not.

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It is an actress called Jane Carr, who has done masses and masses

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of voice work.

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She plays both computer voices, which I didn't realise.

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And for genre fans, she may be most familiar as Timov, wife of

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Londo Malari in Babylon 5's episode Soul Mates.

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I've never heard of that.

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Never me.

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I didn't mean it either.

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Her name is deliberately vomit spelled backwards.

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And she's also Malcolm Reed's mother from Enterprise.

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Star Trek.

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It just gets better.

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All right.

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The voices she does, she does this one little high pitched sort of

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squealing voice, which I think is like the, it sounds like the

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Mulligrops.

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And the Money Grubs is an Australian television kid show from 19

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early 90s.

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We can definitely put up a video.

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And it's on YouTube.

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And actually, the Molly Grub thing.

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She actually looks like the lady Cassandra, but like a crack hall

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makeup. isn't it?

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And it just drives me mad for 3 episodes.

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But by the end of it, I actually quite like that voice.

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I think what she's trying to do is a sort of Ditsy dame from a, you

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know, like a noir thing or something.

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Yeah, like Tallula with a bunch of L's, you know, it's that

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voice.

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Shellingbourne Grant actually does say your only programs that

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talk like a dizzy dame not to act like what.

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You know, to us, that may seem ridiculous.

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But anyone out there with an iPhone, I'm pretty sure Android

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phones have a similar thing.

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You have a choice of voices for your virtual assistant.

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You have a choice of voices for your Siri.

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So why not this situation?

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It's a slight takeoff of Star Trek as well.

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I mean, Next Generation hadn't happened yet.

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But in the original series, the computer voice is it's Major

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Barrett still, but very staccato delivery as a computer.

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There's one episode where they put it in for service with a group

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of female engineers who give it a soul tree, attractive voice, and

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Captain Kirk threatens to wipe the computer to get rid of it and

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asks her if she understands and she says, computer, dear, and has

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a hissy fit.

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So the idea of computers with funny voices has a long history and

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sci-fi, but actually really fits in here.

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Well, I think it works in a radio series context.

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You have to have characters that sound different because you don't

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get to see them.

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And there are one or 2 sort of scenes where it's just, say, the 2

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computer voices talking and they're not in a particular place or

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anything like that.

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It is all about voices.

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There's people speaking over communicators and stuff.

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This is very well designed, I think, for radio in a way that the

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subsequent stories that we're going to discuss today really

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aren't.

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So it does work as an audio, I think.

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Yeah.

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And it's got the time lords.

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Isn't that great that they all know about the time lords and

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they're in it and there's the big bang going to happen.

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You know, it's all these wonderful cliches and tropes that, you

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know, they're just, he likes to...

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He's ripped that off terminus, hasn't he?

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So the Vipod more, this spaceship will go back in time under the

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influence of the um, ethereal voice computer, the mysterious

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female voice, and it's going to explode and it's going to cause

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the big bang.

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And in fact, the big problem with the story, and it's a typical

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say would problem, you were saying before, Brendan.

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The doctor doesn't resolve the situation at all.

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No, I mean, it's kind of not as prominent because this is a nice

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tight 60 minute story.

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Really about 52, 53 minutes once you take out all the titles.

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The Dr. and Perry land, they get locked in a ventilation shaft.

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Then the doctor gets locked in a room and talks to the computer

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for a while, then he goes back to the Tartar centre, timelord

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turns up and says, no, don't do that.

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You'll stop the universe being created.

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It's like, really, you couldn't have turned up before now.

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But yeah, it's the whole thing of, at the end, the doctor just

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goes, what a stupid idiot I've been. going to go to a library and

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read up on something.

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And of course, the doctor starts the story massively hung over.

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Having had 3 bottles of voxnick because he didn't realise it was

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alcoholic.

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I really dislike that, actually.

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That's another sort of thing of say we're trying to be sort of

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adult.

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And in a kid show context, it's a bad idea, but I think just

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generally in Doctor Who, it's a bad idea. you know, the doctor

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doesn't get drunk, really.

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And the only time he's ever said to be drunk is in the twin

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dilemma, and here, and I just, I don't really like it very much.

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In the novelisation, really, the 1st 3rd of the novelisation is

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all world building and preamble, and there's some really good and

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funny stuff in there.

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It has to be said.

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It sort of explains what the ship is doing.

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We're in a completely different galaxy.

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And this ship is a survey ship, as is suggested in the dialogue of

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this.

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But the idea is it's trying to bring together all 17 civilisations

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from this galaxy, and in doing so, it collects art treasures from

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all of them, as well as doing a census to try and get an idea of

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where everyone is and what all the cultures are and et cetera.

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And that's how Grant gets access to these things.

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We also find out that Shellingbourne Grant isn't really

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Shellingbourne Grant.

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He's this arch criminal who has had his brain transplanted into

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the body of shelling board.

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And it's just all sorts of silly stuff like that.

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But yeah, I remember texting you, Nathan, when I was reading this

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saying, it's page 55, I believe, and the doctor has just come into

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the story, and it even recounts them getting drunk in the bar and

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the doctor falling off a bar stool and all this kind of stuff, and

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it's like, I feel like this story would have been great as its own

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thing, not a Doctor Who story.

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I love the fact that it is a Doctor Who story, of course, because

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it's Doctor Who story, but it's kind of like you can take the

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Doctor and Perry out of this and nothing really changes.

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Like, much like many of the season 22 stories, except for maybe

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timelash where the doctor does really nothing to resolve the

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situation.

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Well, I didn't even bother to read the novel.

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And so I just listened to the audio and I think it works as an

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audio.

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And I think you could have done it as a 50 minute episode with

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just the focus on the doctor and Perry, which obviously that's

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what it is.

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You could have put it in season 22 and done one episode for

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timelash on one episode for this.

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Yeah, it would have been a big improvement.

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00:12:03.059 --> 00:12:06.299
So there's one thing that we talked about during the week, Brandon

247
00:12:06.299 --> 00:12:09.179
and it is the only chapter of the novel that I read.

248
00:12:09.240 --> 00:12:12.179
I went back and read it, and it's when it introduces Slan, and

249
00:12:12.179 --> 00:12:15.240
that's Valentine Dial's character, and it's actually the last

250
00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:17.519
acting job he ever did, I think.

251
00:12:17.639 --> 00:12:19.799
He passed away before this was broadcast.

252
00:12:19.860 --> 00:12:22.980
Yeah, so he's wonderful in it, of course. just absolutely

253
00:12:22.980 --> 00:12:23.879
terrific.

254
00:12:23.940 --> 00:12:28.139
I love how he goes, look how my past stools grow.

255
00:12:28.200 --> 00:12:29.879
You know, he's really funny.

256
00:12:29.940 --> 00:12:37.080
But he is, as you pointed out, Brendan, a thinly veiled portrait

257
00:12:37.080 --> 00:12:38.220
of John Nathan Turner.

258
00:12:38.279 --> 00:12:39.480
Yeah, absolutely.

259
00:12:39.539 --> 00:12:42.000
To read you an extract from the novel.

260
00:12:42.059 --> 00:12:47.399
First of all, he's been made captain kind of just because he has

261
00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:49.320
stuck around long enough and not got fired yet.

262
00:12:49.379 --> 00:12:55.919
His 1st job was as entertainment officer of the SS vampon vamping

263
00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:56.100
on.

264
00:12:56.220 --> 00:13:00.000
And to review just a little tiny bit here.

265
00:13:00.059 --> 00:13:03.840
It must be said, though, that Salon was very good at 2 things

266
00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:09.000
writing memos and dodging the flying globules of fat after they

267
00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:10.019
had hit the fan.

268
00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:13.980
And we then have a chapter of instances where from Slan's life

269
00:13:13.980 --> 00:13:16.740
where disaster has happened and he's ridden on the coattails of

270
00:13:16.740 --> 00:13:21.000
other people to get out of trouble and bullied people and what

271
00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:21.419
have you.

272
00:13:22.139 --> 00:13:27.059
And yeah, it just becomes really uncomfortable reading this

273
00:13:27.059 --> 00:13:31.379
knowing what is just about to happen between Saywood and JNT.

274
00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:34.500
But this is written after his time on the show.

275
00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:36.059
So he's putting in all that stuff.

276
00:13:36.120 --> 00:13:37.500
I think there's a hint of it.

277
00:13:37.559 --> 00:13:40.320
There's a scene where Valentine Dial complains to his attendant

278
00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:43.200
that no one on the crew likes him and that he would like everyone

279
00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:44.399
on the crew to like him.

280
00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:48.360
In the novelisation, there's a line about how all of the young and

281
00:13:48.360 --> 00:13:51.360
competent people that he used to work with have quit and he's

282
00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:54.360
replaced them with sort of old people who aren't going to

283
00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:55.200
challenge him.

284
00:13:55.259 --> 00:13:59.460
And there's all this stuff about his bad temper, and it all is so

285
00:13:59.460 --> 00:14:04.919
thinly veiled, and it's so ungracious and so unpleasant.

286
00:14:04.980 --> 00:14:08.940
I have occasionally felt guilty about saying nasty things about

287
00:14:08.940 --> 00:14:12.539
Eric Saywood on the podcast, but reading that chapter really has

288
00:14:12.539 --> 00:14:13.259
cured me of that.

289
00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:14.580
He's really horrible.

290
00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:20.940
Also, I think is Stuart Velsper, who, in the novel, it's slightly

291
00:14:20.940 --> 00:14:23.519
different from the audio version, because in the audio version

292
00:14:23.519 --> 00:14:26.519
both Slant and Velsper succumbed to the infection from the captain

293
00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:28.080
and die.

294
00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:33.600
In this, Velsper saves the rest of the crew by killing the captain

295
00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:34.559
with a scalpel.

296
00:14:34.980 --> 00:14:38.639
But I think Velsper is a go-it Gary Downey.

297
00:14:38.700 --> 00:14:40.980
And here's another extract from chapter 6.

298
00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:44.759
Like the captain, Velspa was a quartz-based life form.

299
00:14:44.820 --> 00:14:48.240
Also, like the captain, he was grossly overweight and rather

300
00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:50.340
unpleasant to carbon-based life forms.

301
00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:53.580
The reason for his behaviour, unlike that of the captain was

302
00:14:53.580 --> 00:14:54.000
simple.

303
00:14:54.059 --> 00:14:55.379
He was a racist.

304
00:14:57.480 --> 00:15:00.539
And I actually think that line's hilarious.

305
00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:04.080
Say would get some of the comedy really, really spot on in this

306
00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:08.879
novel, but I was just reading it, going, wow, knowing how much you

307
00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:11.279
hated John Nathan Turner.

308
00:15:11.340 --> 00:15:17.279
It's kind of obvious that, yeah, slam is you having to go at your

309
00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:17.820
boss.

310
00:15:18.299 --> 00:15:22.559
And I think Shellingbourne Grant is probably Eric Saywood in

311
00:15:22.559 --> 00:15:23.519
apotheosis.

312
00:15:23.580 --> 00:15:26.100
Take a drink deal list about the spirit of Richard is with us

313
00:15:26.100 --> 00:15:29.519
because, you know, he's cleverer than everyone else in hiding

314
00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:31.019
these art treasures and what have you.

315
00:15:31.080 --> 00:15:34.500
But the whole novelisation, as well as having those funny bits.

316
00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:38.639
All the characterisation that's added for Grant, and Slan, and

317
00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:40.679
Velsper, and Seedle, and Snatch.

318
00:15:40.919 --> 00:15:45.000
Eric Saywood's idea of character development here is, I'm going to

319
00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:47.279
put in lots of stuff to make these characters unlikeable.

320
00:15:47.340 --> 00:15:50.759
Yeah, he does that in the twin dilemma normalisation as well.

321
00:15:50.820 --> 00:15:54.600
Yeah, and sometimes it's funny and sometimes it's...

322
00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:58.799
You get past the point of hating the characters and just going

323
00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:00.059
okay, can we get on with it now?

324
00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:01.440
It's very cynical, I find.

325
00:16:01.500 --> 00:16:06.240
But as a 60 minute audio play, it passes the time really nicely

326
00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:10.679
and unlike some other Doctor Who from this time period, and not

327
00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:13.620
just Collins era, but pizza era as well, you don't notice that the

328
00:16:13.620 --> 00:16:15.600
doctor hasn't done anything at the end.

329
00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:21.360
Try.

330
00:16:30.419 --> 00:16:36.059
So, moving on to season 23, proper, or rather, the season 23 that

331
00:16:36.059 --> 00:16:36.419
never was.

332
00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:38.700
Todd, I think you've got a rundown of what the 6 stories were to

333
00:16:38.700 --> 00:16:38.820
be.

334
00:16:38.940 --> 00:16:41.700
I think on the turn of the vervoids, there's actually a

335
00:16:41.700 --> 00:16:43.919
documentary that actually shows what they are.

336
00:16:43.980 --> 00:16:46.679
So 1st up was going to be the nightmare fair written by Graham

337
00:16:46.679 --> 00:16:48.840
Williams involving the Sylvester Toymaker.

338
00:16:48.899 --> 00:16:50.639
Colin Baker had seen a script for this.

339
00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:54.899
And obviously we know that the end line of the previous season had

340
00:16:54.899 --> 00:16:58.320
been edited not to include Blackpool, which was the location, that

341
00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:01.019
when the axe came through for the show, they already had letters

342
00:17:01.019 --> 00:17:04.440
out to various locations to say we need the locations in about 10

343
00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:05.339
12 weeks time.

344
00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:09.599
And so of all of the shows in this season, you know, the nightmare

345
00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:10.500
fair was going ahead.

346
00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:15.359
And it's completely in the murdus operandi of Eric Sabred, and

347
00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:19.500
John Nathan Turner in that the 1st story of every season is their

348
00:17:19.500 --> 00:17:23.099
take on something from the past history of the show, and this time

349
00:17:23.099 --> 00:17:25.559
they're going back even further to the celestial tray maker.

350
00:17:25.619 --> 00:17:28.799
You know, in the previous year, it had been the tombs of Telos

351
00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:32.819
then previous year, it had been the Siberians, and then Omega and

352
00:17:32.819 --> 00:17:34.259
the Master. you know, the same thing.

353
00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:39.720
So, of course, the novels came out in 1990, or thereabouts is the

354
00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:43.019
missing episode, and then Big Finish did their audio adaption in

355
00:17:43.019 --> 00:17:43.859
2009.

356
00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:46.559
So this one is both book and audio.

357
00:17:46.619 --> 00:17:51.960
And so what did you think of the book in, sorry, in 1990 when it

358
00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:52.200
came out?

359
00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:56.640
So I did buy all of the books in 1990 and I did read all of them.

360
00:17:56.700 --> 00:18:01.019
And in preparation for the podcast, I started reading the

361
00:18:01.019 --> 00:18:05.160
Nightmare Fair, but kind of got bored with it and needed a version

362
00:18:05.160 --> 00:18:07.740
that I could get through one while I was walking the dog in the

363
00:18:07.740 --> 00:18:08.039
morning.

364
00:18:08.099 --> 00:18:13.500
So I switched around about a quarter of the way through to the big

365
00:18:13.500 --> 00:18:14.519
finish audio.

366
00:18:14.579 --> 00:18:17.700
The same with Mission to Magnus.

367
00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:20.160
I hadn't enjoyed admission to Magnus at the time.

368
00:18:20.220 --> 00:18:23.519
I do remember that And so I listened to the audio of that.

369
00:18:23.579 --> 00:18:29.519
The final one, the ultimate evil, doesn't exist as a big finish

370
00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:33.119
story because Big Finish, I couldn't successfully negotiate with

371
00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:34.740
Wally Kay Daly to get it done.

372
00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:35.819
Thank God.

373
00:18:35.940 --> 00:18:41.339
And I do remember being unimpressed with it, but basically had no

374
00:18:41.339 --> 00:18:41.880
memory of it.

375
00:18:41.940 --> 00:18:44.220
So I did actually read that one all the way through.

376
00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:47.940
I think the nightmare fair is not good.

377
00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:52.500
I was disappointed because I'm a bit of a Graham Williams fan, but

378
00:18:52.500 --> 00:18:57.119
I do think it would have in some ways worked on television, in

379
00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:00.660
that it was going to contain a really impressive location shoot at

380
00:19:00.660 --> 00:19:03.000
the beginning, and all of the descriptions of the stuff that goes

381
00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:04.380
on in the fun fair.

382
00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:05.339
I think would have been great.

383
00:19:05.400 --> 00:19:09.420
I'm a big fan of the scene where the doctor rides the roller

384
00:19:09.420 --> 00:19:11.039
coaster and really enjoys it.

385
00:19:11.099 --> 00:19:14.460
I like the doctor's reaction to eating, you know, candy floss for

386
00:19:14.460 --> 00:19:15.059
the 1st time.

387
00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:18.779
All of that stuff is sort of rather lovely and doctor-ish, and

388
00:19:18.779 --> 00:19:23.759
shows Colin at his best when he's being sort of slightly silly. you

389
00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:25.019
know, I think he's quite charming.

390
00:19:25.079 --> 00:19:26.579
I think that stuff would have been good.

391
00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:31.680
But all too soon it just heads down into a bunch of corridors and

392
00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:34.559
prison cells and there's a lot of running around and nothing very

393
00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:35.339
interesting happens.

394
00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:39.599
It's interesting because when I 1st read this in 1990, I was so

395
00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:40.140
disappointed.

396
00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:41.400
It was just boring.

397
00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:44.400
It was basically what you'd just said, and then the doctor was

398
00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:47.700
just in a room and playing a computer game, like 2 rooms in a

399
00:19:47.700 --> 00:19:50.039
computer game in the 2nd half of the normal.

400
00:19:50.099 --> 00:19:53.220
So coming to the audio, I was concerned about it.

401
00:19:53.339 --> 00:19:56.339
And when I 1st listened to it, I actually thought, they'd actually

402
00:19:56.339 --> 00:19:57.480
done a really good job of this.

403
00:19:57.480 --> 00:20:00.240
And it made me appreciate more the fact that it would be a visual

404
00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:00.539
thing.

405
00:20:00.539 --> 00:20:04.140
And Matthew Robinson, who was going to direct this, he directed to

406
00:20:04.140 --> 00:20:06.960
take at the side of them, and I think actually was actually quite

407
00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:10.019
good in terms of location, working that sort of thing.

408
00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:14.400
So I actually think that what we see in the novel and what is in

409
00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:16.799
the audio is basically what we would have got on the screen

410
00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:20.220
because it was that close to production, you know, how they would

411
00:20:20.220 --> 00:20:25.259
have realised the playing of the computer game and the actual

412
00:20:25.259 --> 00:20:30.299
monster, which remind, if you look at the cover of the novel looks

413
00:20:30.299 --> 00:20:34.200
a bit like a multicoloured yeti, yeah, I don't know how that would

414
00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:35.279
have quite come across.

415
00:20:35.339 --> 00:20:40.079
But certainly, I felt after reading it again and listening to it.

416
00:20:40.140 --> 00:20:41.519
I actually felt the guts of it.

417
00:20:41.579 --> 00:20:45.299
There was a solid core to it, not anything fantastic, you know?

418
00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:49.079
I mean, I've certainly come away giving it like for me, 7 out of

419
00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:52.140
10, like it's never going to be groundbreaking, but I actually

420
00:20:52.140 --> 00:20:55.079
thought there was a solid, very, fairly solid structure to it.

421
00:20:55.140 --> 00:20:59.220
But again, in the same, John Nathan Turner, Eric, say would way

422
00:20:59.220 --> 00:21:03.240
they just redo it, and they perhaps don't do the celestial toy

423
00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:05.759
maker as good as he was done the 1st time, and I would say the 1st

424
00:21:05.759 --> 00:21:06.660
time he wasn't done great.

425
00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:10.200
I said before that I think maybe the celestial toymaker is the

426
00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:11.640
weakest Doctor Who story.

427
00:21:11.700 --> 00:21:12.900
It's really terrible.

428
00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:17.460
It has no structure. and really nothing very much going for it.

429
00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:21.000
And I can't imagine why you would want to bring the celestial

430
00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:21.960
toymaker back.

431
00:21:22.019 --> 00:21:27.480
You know, Michael Goff is good as the celestial toy maker and, of

432
00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:30.779
course, as everyone's favourite member of the High Council

433
00:21:30.779 --> 00:21:34.019
Councillor Hedden in Arc of Infinity.

434
00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:37.980
But the character is completely pointless.

435
00:21:38.039 --> 00:21:41.099
And here, we're supposed to learn something new about us.

436
00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:44.160
We learn that he's from, you know, he's on his own and from he's

437
00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:47.819
from another galaxy or no, another universe altogether, but all of

438
00:21:47.819 --> 00:21:51.599
that is really not very interesting and who kind of cares.

439
00:21:51.660 --> 00:21:54.180
Yeah, it's Omegur is controlling the Matrix.

440
00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:54.539
So what?

441
00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:55.079
Yeah.

442
00:21:55.140 --> 00:22:00.299
My 1st experience of this is out of the audio.

443
00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:02.400
I had the book as a kid, but I never read it.

444
00:22:02.460 --> 00:22:06.599
So coming to the audio, I was aware that it was set at Blackpool

445
00:22:06.599 --> 00:22:09.119
Fun Fair Toymaker, that was about it.

446
00:22:09.180 --> 00:22:11.339
I enjoyed it.

447
00:22:11.400 --> 00:22:16.380
I did feel that it was kind of, it was just cashing it on

448
00:22:16.380 --> 00:22:20.579
nostalgia again, the way a lot of these JNT say would season

449
00:22:20.579 --> 00:22:22.440
openers with an old villain does.

450
00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:28.619
I think what saves the audio version is so many of the scenes

451
00:22:28.619 --> 00:22:31.140
together with Colin Baker opposite David Bailey.

452
00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:33.720
They're both really strong in their performances.

453
00:22:33.779 --> 00:22:36.900
David Bailey is the celestial toy maker, and...

454
00:22:36.900 --> 00:22:39.960
Previously, of course, isn't he dance?

455
00:22:40.019 --> 00:22:41.880
from robots of death?

456
00:22:41.940 --> 00:22:46.200
I actually find him annoying because he's just going, and I just

457
00:22:46.200 --> 00:22:47.160
go, yeah, no.

458
00:22:47.220 --> 00:22:47.579
No?

459
00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:48.000
No.

460
00:22:48.059 --> 00:22:49.140
Okay, that's a shame.

461
00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:52.500
They did keep him on to do one more story as well, that's your

462
00:22:52.500 --> 00:22:57.180
toymaker as well, solitaire as a 2 hander with India Fisher, as

463
00:22:57.180 --> 00:23:01.440
Charlie Pollard, which is even better than this because, you know

464
00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:02.460
it's entirely original.

465
00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:06.539
There's some fascinating stuff in the making of for this audio

466
00:23:06.539 --> 00:23:11.099
where John Ainsworth, who I believe adapted it, talks about the

467
00:23:11.099 --> 00:23:13.259
difficulty in adapting it because when he had a look at the

468
00:23:13.259 --> 00:23:14.640
scripts and actually timed them.

469
00:23:14.700 --> 00:23:18.299
Episode one was about 35 minutes and episode 2 was about 60

470
00:23:18.299 --> 00:23:18.660
minutes.

471
00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:22.500
So the cliffhanger we get in the audio version of the doctor

472
00:23:22.500 --> 00:23:26.099
agreeing to play the toy makers game isn't the cliffhanger in the

473
00:23:26.099 --> 00:23:26.519
script.

474
00:23:26.579 --> 00:23:28.920
The cliffhanger in the script is Perry in the caverns with the

475
00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:29.400
robot.

476
00:23:29.460 --> 00:23:33.720
But it is actually a much stronger cliffhanger because it's the 2

477
00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:35.400
opponents in the thing.

478
00:23:35.460 --> 00:23:39.059
The bizarre thing for me is somebody who loves video games is

479
00:23:39.059 --> 00:23:42.000
listening to a video game being played in an audio.

480
00:23:42.059 --> 00:23:45.240
It doesn't, but then again, I kind of think what would it have

481
00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:45.960
looked like on screen?

482
00:23:46.019 --> 00:23:49.980
It would have been made in a BBC micro, which, even at the time

483
00:23:49.980 --> 00:23:52.380
was not a very high powered home computer.

484
00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:54.539
What would we have had with that?

485
00:23:54.599 --> 00:23:57.720
Like, would it have looked like the Wonderful Twins equation game

486
00:23:57.720 --> 00:23:58.920
back in the terms?

487
00:23:58.980 --> 00:24:01.859
What would have it looked like in Terra the Bulloids where the

488
00:24:01.859 --> 00:24:03.420
Mogarians play?

489
00:24:03.420 --> 00:24:04.140
Galaxian?

490
00:24:04.140 --> 00:24:07.380
The 3D Galaxian, like, which looks better than that.

491
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:09.119
So is it going to be somewhere in between?

492
00:24:09.180 --> 00:24:09.660
I don't know.

493
00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:10.920
It would have been terrible.

494
00:24:10.980 --> 00:24:14.759
I mean, that's a very undramatic looking kind of climax where

495
00:24:14.759 --> 00:24:16.559
you've just got the doctor playing a video game.

496
00:24:16.619 --> 00:24:18.240
Well, we've already seen it.

497
00:24:18.299 --> 00:24:19.740
When was never say never again?

498
00:24:19.799 --> 00:24:21.059
That was 1983.

499
00:24:21.420 --> 00:24:23.759
And there's that sequence with the video game, and that was

500
00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:24.599
actually exciting.

501
00:24:24.660 --> 00:24:30.180
But they spent 10s of 1000s of pounds just creating these graphics

502
00:24:30.180 --> 00:24:31.079
for this video game.

503
00:24:31.140 --> 00:24:33.119
It wasn't an existing video game.

504
00:24:33.180 --> 00:24:36.180
Whereas Doctor, either would have gone for an existing video game

505
00:24:36.180 --> 00:24:38.759
or they would have animated something which anyone who knew about

506
00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:40.920
video games would have said that's not a video game.

507
00:24:40.980 --> 00:24:44.339
It would have been a bunch of asterisks, you know, like in The

508
00:24:44.339 --> 00:24:44.880
Awakening.

509
00:24:44.940 --> 00:24:49.740
But the UK game production market was actually really big in the

510
00:24:49.740 --> 00:24:50.700
mid 80s.

511
00:24:50.759 --> 00:24:55.380
There were lots of home programmers who were making games and

512
00:24:55.380 --> 00:24:59.579
selling them to the big publishers and then getting 2 or £3 per

513
00:24:59.579 --> 00:25:00.420
tape sold.

514
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:02.880
It was a cottage industry in the UK.

515
00:25:02.940 --> 00:25:06.420
So it was at least an attempt by the production team to have a

516
00:25:06.420 --> 00:25:09.660
story set in the modern day to have it set in a recognisable

517
00:25:09.660 --> 00:25:11.880
location and with a hot topic.

518
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:17.579
But in fact, it is just a lot of generic corridors and prison

519
00:25:17.579 --> 00:25:22.680
cells and sort of weird, uninteresting aliens and sort of totally

520
00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:24.539
incomprehensible resolution.

521
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:29.759
Perry appears to be in the cell, fiddling with some kind of thing

522
00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:35.700
that's being made by the mechanic who's a big Venusian hairy beast

523
00:25:35.700 --> 00:25:39.000
and that has some effect on what's going on in the room with the

524
00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:42.960
doctor, and then the doctor kind of confronts the toy maker about

525
00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:45.299
being the last of his kind or something like that.

526
00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:47.880
And I actually couldn't work out what was going on.

527
00:25:47.940 --> 00:25:51.000
And I did go back and read that bit of the novel and it really

528
00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:52.019
didn't help at all.

529
00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:56.400
And I think there's a theme that I'm going to touch on later in

530
00:25:56.400 --> 00:26:01.079
the episode, which is that Doctor Who is turning into a show where

531
00:26:01.079 --> 00:26:03.779
a lot of stuff just happens in corridors.

532
00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:09.240
I think it's absolutely no coincidence at all that Perry says over

533
00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:12.900
and over again, all these tunnels look the same to me, because

534
00:26:12.900 --> 00:26:16.980
Doctor Who is getting like that, Doctor Who is a show about

535
00:26:16.980 --> 00:26:21.000
science fiction things happening in space corridors, which I think

536
00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:23.819
is why I would have liked episode one because I think that's a bit

537
00:26:23.819 --> 00:26:24.599
of a relief from that.

538
00:26:24.660 --> 00:26:27.539
Yeah, I think episode one, being on location on Earth.

539
00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:30.599
Present day, something novel for the 6th doctor.

540
00:26:30.660 --> 00:26:32.160
I think episode one would have worked really well.

541
00:26:32.220 --> 00:26:34.799
Episode 2 probably would have fallen in a heap, but this still

542
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:35.400
would have been made.

543
00:26:35.460 --> 00:26:37.200
Yeah, absolutely.

544
00:26:37.259 --> 00:26:39.480
And before we move on, I just want to point out one thing.

545
00:26:39.539 --> 00:26:40.980
There's a character called Kevin Stoney.

546
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:42.299
Yes, isn't that weird?

547
00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:47.519
Who will grow up and then go back in time and play various people

548
00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:52.859
on Blake 7 and do a starring turn as Tobias Vaughan and Magic

549
00:26:52.859 --> 00:26:53.460
Mavic Chen.

550
00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:55.019
Oh yeah, lovely.

551
00:27:01.740 --> 00:27:15.119
The Galaxy Well, the 2nd story was going to be called the ultimate

552
00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:16.680
evil, directed by Fiona Cumming.

553
00:27:16.740 --> 00:27:19.920
Now, the ultimate evil was written by Wally K Daly.

554
00:27:19.980 --> 00:27:26.460
Who's still working and is has quite a long career in writing TV.

555
00:27:26.579 --> 00:27:28.440
So he's not no one at all.

556
00:27:28.500 --> 00:27:32.279
But you can write TV and not be able to write Doctor Who.

557
00:27:32.339 --> 00:27:35.099
And that is obvious from this novelisation.

558
00:27:35.160 --> 00:27:37.619
Well, particularly during a period of time where the show is being

559
00:27:37.619 --> 00:27:41.099
run by people who can't write TV and can't write Doctor Who.

560
00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:44.099
I go on a bit of a tirade about this?

561
00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:45.420
I think you're going to.

562
00:27:45.900 --> 00:27:48.420
Which I'm going to talk about the plot.

563
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:50.339
Get the popcorn, brother.

564
00:27:50.339 --> 00:27:52.319
Because this could go on just for a few minutes.

565
00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:57.960
So there's this continent of Tranquila. what a fantastic name that

566
00:27:57.960 --> 00:27:58.319
is.

567
00:27:58.380 --> 00:28:02.700
And all the people are going quite mad because of some ray from

568
00:28:02.700 --> 00:28:03.180
space.

569
00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:07.920
And the son of the 1st family believes that he and his wife can

570
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:11.160
overcome this, this ray, their love will overcome this ray.

571
00:28:11.220 --> 00:28:13.920
And everybody's supposed to chain themselves up so they don't.

572
00:28:13.980 --> 00:28:16.019
So what happens is he pushes her off a cliff.

573
00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:18.539
I want to play by Marina Theatres.

574
00:28:18.779 --> 00:28:22.619
She's called Mariana, so I think Marina Theatres perfect.

575
00:28:22.680 --> 00:28:26.460
So up in space, there is this thing called the dwarf mordant that

576
00:28:26.460 --> 00:28:29.700
is doing this rating, which could never have been visualised on

577
00:28:29.700 --> 00:28:30.240
screen.

578
00:28:30.299 --> 00:28:31.740
It would have needed CGI.

579
00:28:31.799 --> 00:28:34.920
And in league with him is the leader of the 2nd family.

580
00:28:34.980 --> 00:28:37.079
So we've got a 1st family and a 2nd family.

581
00:28:37.140 --> 00:28:40.019
And there's a couple of scientists on this continent trying to

582
00:28:40.019 --> 00:28:44.400
develop a helmet that can combat the effects of this ray or

583
00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:45.480
whatever it happens to be.

584
00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:50.039
To the doctrine, Perry, having an argument in the TARDIS about her

585
00:28:50.039 --> 00:28:50.519
weight.

586
00:28:50.880 --> 00:28:53.759
Which one I just want to kill myself, right?

587
00:28:53.819 --> 00:28:56.279
No, you should, you know, kill someone else, I think.

588
00:28:56.339 --> 00:28:57.660
Yes, the writer of this.

589
00:28:57.720 --> 00:28:58.799
Okay.

590
00:28:58.859 --> 00:29:01.680
In the end, the doctor finds this thing called the holiday ball

591
00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:03.720
which he's confiscated from guess who?

592
00:29:03.779 --> 00:29:05.279
old friend.

593
00:29:05.339 --> 00:29:06.960
The dwarf mortant.

594
00:29:07.019 --> 00:29:10.500
And this holiday ball will obviously tell you where to go on a

595
00:29:10.500 --> 00:29:11.819
holiday because they need a holiday.

596
00:29:11.819 --> 00:29:12.960
And guess where they're going to go?

597
00:29:13.019 --> 00:29:17.880
Oh, yes, it suggests Tranquilla, which the doctor happens to know

598
00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:21.299
a couple of old scientist friends there who he'd like to drop in

599
00:29:21.299 --> 00:29:21.539
on.

600
00:29:21.599 --> 00:29:24.180
And of course, he tells Perry about this.

601
00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:26.400
You know, they're all peaceful, but they have this ability to

602
00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:29.700
travel very quickly in these big sort of thought bubble balls and

603
00:29:29.700 --> 00:29:32.400
so Perry wants to go in one of these balls, right?

604
00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:33.119
She's obsessed with it.

605
00:29:33.180 --> 00:29:36.000
So, surprise, surprise.

606
00:29:36.119 --> 00:29:39.900
The doctor, of course, touches his version of the holiday ball, but

607
00:29:39.900 --> 00:29:44.640
the dwarf Morton has a twin ball, which allows him and the leader

608
00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:47.220
of the 2nd family to see everything that's going on in the TARDIS

609
00:29:47.220 --> 00:29:50.700
and at the same time, take, of course, the doctor's DNA, which

610
00:29:50.700 --> 00:29:54.119
means that he can manipulate his special ray to focus just on the

611
00:29:54.119 --> 00:29:54.359
doctor.

612
00:29:54.900 --> 00:29:58.140
Did Dr. Perry turn up on a beach?

613
00:29:58.200 --> 00:30:00.839
They get attacked. doctor leaves her for dead, but she gets

614
00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:04.019
rescued by the son of the 1st family, right, who I think is on the

615
00:30:04.019 --> 00:30:05.819
run because he broke the law.

616
00:30:05.880 --> 00:30:07.559
Oh, I'm surprised, surprise.

617
00:30:07.619 --> 00:30:09.720
Perry is the spinning image of his dead wife.

618
00:30:10.619 --> 00:30:15.059
And then the doctor goes to see his 2 scientist friends because

619
00:30:15.059 --> 00:30:18.059
they can sort everything out, and of course, the dwarf Morden is

620
00:30:18.059 --> 00:30:21.119
monitoring this, and so every time the doctor takes off this

621
00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:23.819
special helmet, he then decides to do a special rage just for the

622
00:30:23.819 --> 00:30:24.180
doctor.

623
00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:26.759
So we get the doctor going berserk in this laboratory for at least

624
00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:28.559
an episode or half an episode.

625
00:30:28.619 --> 00:30:30.000
No, it's good.

626
00:30:30.059 --> 00:30:32.220
He tries to stab people with shots of glass.

627
00:30:32.279 --> 00:30:35.579
He strangles people, which is becoming a habit at this point.

628
00:30:35.640 --> 00:30:37.440
It's really really terrible.

629
00:30:37.500 --> 00:30:39.059
It's just appalling.

630
00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:42.839
In the end, things start going bad to worse for this leader of the

631
00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:44.579
2nd family because his plot falls apart.

632
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:48.779
He even gets a hypno gun, a hypno gun, like really hypnotise

633
00:30:48.779 --> 00:30:49.079
people.

634
00:30:49.140 --> 00:30:52.019
The doctor and the scientists end up on this other continent.

635
00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:55.740
There's been a 50-year piece, and the other continent is full of

636
00:30:55.740 --> 00:30:58.680
these computer worshipping dodoes who worship the great computer

637
00:30:58.680 --> 00:30:59.700
or some such crap.

638
00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:05.880
It's an incredibly uninspiring collection of B grade science

639
00:31:05.880 --> 00:31:06.960
fiction trope.

640
00:31:07.019 --> 00:31:10.079
So you've got a planet with 2 continents that have been at war.

641
00:31:10.140 --> 00:31:11.579
You've got mind control.

642
00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:14.519
You've got all of these just kind of terrible things.

643
00:31:14.579 --> 00:31:19.259
And they're high concept societies, but we literally learn nothing

644
00:31:19.259 --> 00:31:19.740
at all.

645
00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:22.200
They're not there to make some kind of point.

646
00:31:22.259 --> 00:31:24.359
There's no underlying message.

647
00:31:24.420 --> 00:31:27.960
This is the sort of planet that Star Trek would invent with the 2

648
00:31:27.960 --> 00:31:32.279
societies that are quite different and are both kind of weird.

649
00:31:32.339 --> 00:31:35.700
But they're not being used to say anything at all.

650
00:31:35.759 --> 00:31:38.039
The whole thing is just curiously pointless.

651
00:31:38.099 --> 00:31:41.339
You know the planet Generios in the one doctor.

652
00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:43.500
This is the planet Generios.

653
00:31:43.619 --> 00:31:45.539
I mean, it's worse than the planet Zog.

654
00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:49.019
These are people that I couldn't possibly care about doing things

655
00:31:49.019 --> 00:31:51.000
that couldn't possibly rouse my interest.

656
00:31:51.059 --> 00:31:54.480
I just agree completely 110% with you, Nathan.

657
00:31:54.539 --> 00:31:55.799
Like the resolution of it.

658
00:31:55.859 --> 00:31:58.140
Don't do it again, Todd.

659
00:31:58.259 --> 00:32:01.500
Yes, the dwarf moment just gets like a slap on the wrist.

660
00:32:01.619 --> 00:32:04.920
The leader of the 2nd family apparently blows up the leader of the

661
00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:07.319
1st family, but he miraculously survives.

662
00:32:07.500 --> 00:32:09.779
And, you know, the leader of the 2nd family dies.

663
00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:12.720
His whole motivation is the fact that as leader of the 2nd family

664
00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:16.440
he's in charge of security, but because of this peace treaty

665
00:32:16.440 --> 00:32:18.180
everything's locked away in an armoury.

666
00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:21.779
And so he wants to break her armoury out and be, you know, be

667
00:32:21.779 --> 00:32:24.119
leader and so they can have, oh, I mean, it's just pathetic.

668
00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:29.099
He dies, Dr. Perry bugger off, and then in the piece to resistance

669
00:32:29.099 --> 00:32:29.460
the whole thing.

670
00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:32.759
The son of the 2nd family's wife walks back in.

671
00:32:32.819 --> 00:32:37.259
She's alive because as adults, rather than using these special

672
00:32:37.259 --> 00:32:40.440
bubbles of transport, when they're in a dangerous situation, they

673
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:43.859
can just think of a really safe place and be instantaneously

674
00:32:43.859 --> 00:32:46.440
transported to that place, which she was, and they've kept her

675
00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:49.079
hidden until the entire situation was resolved.

676
00:32:49.140 --> 00:32:52.799
But he's got a death penalty hanging over his head because she's

677
00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:54.119
apparently dead and he killed her.

678
00:32:54.180 --> 00:32:55.740
This would never have been made.

679
00:32:55.799 --> 00:32:57.240
It would never have been made.

680
00:32:57.299 --> 00:32:59.279
They would have looked at this and gone, forget it.

681
00:32:59.339 --> 00:33:02.759
And so I'm going to suggest, and I'm just sort of going to divert

682
00:33:02.759 --> 00:33:03.059
here.

683
00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:07.259
One of the big finish audios that exists is called the Song of

684
00:33:07.259 --> 00:33:09.720
Menaptera, or Song of the Space Whale, right?

685
00:33:09.779 --> 00:33:13.440
Which was written, well, a number of times, but was in the

686
00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:15.119
ventures on Barrel slot for season 22.

687
00:33:15.299 --> 00:33:18.599
And I actually think it could have been slotted into this slot in

688
00:33:18.599 --> 00:33:19.619
the season quite easily.

689
00:33:19.740 --> 00:33:24.779
I think the whales could have been realised, they do go inside the

690
00:33:24.779 --> 00:33:27.779
whales, and I think that's something that Fiona Cumming could have

691
00:33:27.779 --> 00:33:30.420
dealt with, like in her sort of way that she deals with things.

692
00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:34.140
And I actually quite like the song of Menaptra as a audio.

693
00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:36.539
I think it's good, not outstanding, but I think there are some

694
00:33:36.539 --> 00:33:37.319
really good things.

695
00:33:37.380 --> 00:33:39.779
I think Seward didn't like it though.

696
00:33:39.900 --> 00:33:41.339
I think that was the problem.

697
00:33:41.400 --> 00:33:44.400
And, you know, like, just because the ultimate evil is terrible

698
00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:48.839
and that's not a universal opinion among the hosts of this podcast

699
00:33:48.839 --> 00:33:53.099
even though it was terrible, Eric Saywood really had in this

700
00:33:53.099 --> 00:33:56.759
period literally no problem at all with commissioning and going

701
00:33:56.759 --> 00:33:58.319
ahead with scripts that were terrible.

702
00:33:58.380 --> 00:34:00.119
I don't think this would have been made.

703
00:34:00.900 --> 00:34:02.640
I really like it.

704
00:34:02.700 --> 00:34:04.380
I'm sorry, Todd.

705
00:34:04.440 --> 00:34:04.799
I do.

706
00:34:04.859 --> 00:34:06.480
I hear all your criticisms.

707
00:34:06.539 --> 00:34:11.519
If I may, if I may, if I may, what I really like about this one is

708
00:34:11.519 --> 00:34:16.559
for a start, with the Dr. and Perry scenes at the beginning, they

709
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:20.159
are comfortably ribbing each other rather than tearing shreds off

710
00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:20.579
each other.

711
00:34:20.579 --> 00:34:22.739
They're teasing each other, when they're talking about where they

712
00:34:22.739 --> 00:34:26.159
go for a holiday, Perry just pipes up with, but not Majorca.

713
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:28.380
And several times during the story, she says, I don't want to go

714
00:34:28.380 --> 00:34:29.099
to Majorca.

715
00:34:29.159 --> 00:34:30.480
And it's never explained.

716
00:34:30.539 --> 00:34:31.260
It's never resolved.

717
00:34:31.320 --> 00:34:33.659
It's just an inside joke between the 2 of them.

718
00:34:33.719 --> 00:34:36.420
Well, they do, she does end up saying that she wants to go to New

719
00:34:36.420 --> 00:34:36.780
York.

720
00:34:36.840 --> 00:34:38.400
Yeah, that'd be awkward.

721
00:34:38.460 --> 00:34:40.980
So I quite enjoyed that.

722
00:34:41.340 --> 00:34:45.360
When I was reading it, it just fired my imagination.

723
00:34:45.420 --> 00:34:49.679
I was actually really easily able to imagine these locations and I

724
00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:51.239
agree it would have been hard to realise.

725
00:34:51.300 --> 00:34:54.420
But I kind of think back to Meglos where you had a sort of big

726
00:34:54.420 --> 00:34:55.920
planetary light beam.

727
00:34:55.980 --> 00:34:59.579
You know, and that's what I kind of see as the dwarf mordant.

728
00:34:59.639 --> 00:35:02.940
Nathan raised something with me during the week, which is the

729
00:35:02.940 --> 00:35:06.239
dwarf Morden engineering a war situation so he can sell weapons

730
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:08.460
isn't that different to what still is going to be doing in the

731
00:35:08.460 --> 00:35:08.880
next story.

732
00:35:08.940 --> 00:35:12.239
In fact, we'll get to it, but I think what Seal is going to doing

733
00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:15.900
in the next story is much better. much, much less boring.

734
00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:21.000
But at the same time, we have a villain who is manipulating a

735
00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:23.280
planet on a big scale.

736
00:35:23.579 --> 00:35:25.380
And as you say, it's a high concept.

737
00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:29.280
Not all the high concepts in this are incredibly well realised, but

738
00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:33.179
I love the little sojourn to the other continent, to Armelia, where

739
00:35:33.179 --> 00:35:37.019
everyone's a germophobe run by a computer and wants everyone to be

740
00:35:37.019 --> 00:35:38.039
run by a computer.

741
00:35:38.099 --> 00:35:42.059
It's a metaphor for Dayton and the Cold War.

742
00:35:42.119 --> 00:35:48.059
So on the one side, we have the continent of Tranquella, which if

743
00:35:48.059 --> 00:35:50.099
you like, is the West.

744
00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:54.300
You know, it's the UK, it's the US.

745
00:35:54.360 --> 00:35:57.059
We have 2 people leading it, one of whom wants to keep the peace

746
00:35:57.059 --> 00:36:00.719
at all costs, and one of whom wants to go in and blow them all

747
00:36:00.719 --> 00:36:01.019
up.

748
00:36:01.079 --> 00:36:03.840
So we've got a kind of Doctor Strangelove thing happening there.

749
00:36:03.900 --> 00:36:08.159
I think the whole thing with central computer and everything being

750
00:36:08.159 --> 00:36:10.739
neat and tidy and, you know, it must all conform.

751
00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:14.940
I think that's a very simplistic view of Soviet era Russia.

752
00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:18.239
Oh, see, I was taking it as a kind of metaphor for sort of

753
00:36:18.239 --> 00:36:21.360
fundamentalist religion, you know, that they have these helmets

754
00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:25.079
that sort of filter out evil thoughts and stuff like that, and

755
00:36:25.079 --> 00:36:27.840
they're shocked when the doctor arrives that he's undressed, you

756
00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:28.139
know.

757
00:36:28.199 --> 00:36:31.920
But it just annoyed me that really nothing very much came of

758
00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:32.159
that.

759
00:36:32.280 --> 00:36:34.320
You know, it's incredibly generic.

760
00:36:34.380 --> 00:36:36.780
And I don't think that Eric Seywood would have been able to

761
00:36:36.780 --> 00:36:37.320
improve on it.

762
00:36:37.380 --> 00:36:37.980
No.

763
00:36:38.340 --> 00:36:42.780
I think a better script editor would have been able to turn this

764
00:36:42.780 --> 00:36:46.440
into something that was a real allegory with identifiable

765
00:36:46.440 --> 00:36:49.920
characters, but we also don't have any creepy old men in

766
00:36:49.920 --> 00:36:51.539
wheelchairs lasting over Perry.

767
00:36:51.599 --> 00:36:55.739
Perry gets... a kind of weird romance with a guy who's just killed

768
00:36:55.739 --> 00:36:56.219
his wife.

769
00:36:56.280 --> 00:36:56.699
Yes.

770
00:36:56.760 --> 00:37:01.079
And I think probably in that 1st scene, we would have had Nicola

771
00:37:01.079 --> 00:37:04.380
Bryant sitting down on the planet with him. before we see Perry.

772
00:37:04.440 --> 00:37:06.539
So the audience goes, hold on, what the hell's happening here?

773
00:37:07.260 --> 00:37:11.400
But when I got to that last page and it's revealed that Mariana

774
00:37:11.400 --> 00:37:15.000
survived because the idea that they could teleport had been used

775
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:15.659
in the story.

776
00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:19.559
Locust does teleport with Perry several times, and it's mentioned

777
00:37:19.559 --> 00:37:22.619
and they do give an explanation as to why they don't constantly

778
00:37:22.619 --> 00:37:23.099
use it.

779
00:37:23.159 --> 00:37:26.760
The idea is, if they happen to accidentally think of the other

780
00:37:26.760 --> 00:37:28.920
continent, they'll cause a planetary incident.

781
00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:32.099
So it is explained in the plot.

782
00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:33.780
And when I got to that last page and they revealed that.

783
00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:36.719
It was a genuine surprise to me and I liked that ending.

784
00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:41.340
I think this story would not have been a classic by any means, but

785
00:37:41.340 --> 00:37:44.579
even if it was put on screen in the form we have there, I think it

786
00:37:44.579 --> 00:37:47.039
would have been enjoyable if you don't look at it too hard.

787
00:37:47.099 --> 00:37:51.900
I certainly think it's flawed, but for me, out of these 3 which

788
00:37:51.900 --> 00:37:55.559
were novelized and were, if you like, the most developed at the

789
00:37:55.559 --> 00:37:56.519
time of cancellation.

790
00:37:56.579 --> 00:38:01.679
This is the one I enjoy the most. darkness.

791
00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:05.219
With the man in that there's side.

792
00:38:05.639 --> 00:38:09.539
We never think when they ain't done.

793
00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:11.579
They didn't come.

794
00:38:11.639 --> 00:38:19.679
They And I'm also And a canine.

795
00:38:19.739 --> 00:38:29.039
Yoga.ing down the Yeah, he wouldn't suit her.

796
00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:35.039
The 3rd story was going to be Robert Holmes is the yellow fever

797
00:38:35.039 --> 00:38:37.139
and how to cure it, which is the best title.

798
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:39.539
It's like fantastic beasts and where to find them.

799
00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:40.619
I think it's a great title.

800
00:38:40.679 --> 00:38:43.980
And it was going to feature the autons in Singapore, and

801
00:38:43.980 --> 00:38:46.320
ultimately it appears the Rani.

802
00:38:46.380 --> 00:38:49.860
But at the time of cancellation, he had not written anything

803
00:38:49.860 --> 00:38:53.519
because he wanted to have the rights to the run he secured, and of

804
00:38:53.519 --> 00:38:57.300
course, know that they were going to film in Singapore after last

805
00:38:57.300 --> 00:39:00.599
year with the US going out the window for the 2 doctors and all

806
00:39:00.599 --> 00:39:02.880
the rewrites he had to perform on that particular script.

807
00:39:02.940 --> 00:39:05.460
So, it doesn't exist.

808
00:39:05.940 --> 00:39:07.800
So let's move on.

809
00:39:08.039 --> 00:39:09.960
Story four.

810
00:39:10.019 --> 00:39:15.360
Mission to Magnus. directed by Ron Jones and written by Philip

811
00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:21.360
Martin, and it exists both as novelisation and as audio, featuring

812
00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:23.579
SIL and the Ice Warriors.

813
00:39:23.639 --> 00:39:25.139
We're getting a bit of a theme here.

814
00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:28.260
We seem to have a double up of people like the Rani and the autons

815
00:39:28.260 --> 00:39:29.880
seal and the ice warriors.

816
00:39:29.940 --> 00:39:34.079
And there's one coming up that will also have a couple of, well

817
00:39:34.079 --> 00:39:34.980
we'll talk about that later.

818
00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:36.360
Anyway, mission to magnets.

819
00:39:36.420 --> 00:39:37.739
So this is really terrible.

820
00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:40.860
And it's insultingly bad in that.

821
00:39:40.920 --> 00:39:43.619
It's a generic planet of women's story.

822
00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:50.099
And Planet of Women's stories are always really about how women

823
00:39:50.099 --> 00:39:54.659
are irrational and inferior, and what a bad job they would do if

824
00:39:54.659 --> 00:39:55.500
they ran the place.

825
00:39:55.559 --> 00:40:00.300
So they don't critique patriarchy by switching it on its head.

826
00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:05.639
They reinforce it by showing that women are unsuited to run

827
00:40:05.639 --> 00:40:06.659
society.

828
00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:10.199
And so here the only reason that the women are in charge is

829
00:40:10.199 --> 00:40:13.739
because the men have a disease that kills them if they're exposed

830
00:40:13.739 --> 00:40:16.199
to the planet's air.

831
00:40:16.260 --> 00:40:21.059
And there is a planet of men, which does have at least one woman

832
00:40:21.059 --> 00:40:23.940
on it who comes on an expedition later, but it's basically the

833
00:40:23.940 --> 00:40:27.960
planet of men, and the men are violent and they're going to attack

834
00:40:27.960 --> 00:40:29.760
us and all of that sort of thing at any moment.

835
00:40:29.820 --> 00:40:34.619
And there is a speech that the leader of the women on the planet

836
00:40:34.619 --> 00:40:38.280
Magnus gives about how men are violent and oppressive and all of

837
00:40:38.280 --> 00:40:39.119
those sorts of things.

838
00:40:39.179 --> 00:40:39.900
And that's true.

839
00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:43.380
I mean, you know, men have run all of the world's wars and all of

840
00:40:43.380 --> 00:40:44.099
that kind of thing.

841
00:40:44.159 --> 00:40:48.719
And that's fair enough, but it's so undercut by the kind of

842
00:40:48.719 --> 00:40:52.199
revolting sexism of the thing as a whole.

843
00:40:52.260 --> 00:40:56.639
And at the very end, the women are forced by the people, from the

844
00:40:56.639 --> 00:41:02.219
planet of men, which is called Salvac, to get married to them.

845
00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:06.119
And there's one horrific scene where these women who are

846
00:41:06.119 --> 00:41:11.340
telepathic, are forced to imagine what it means to become a man's

847
00:41:11.340 --> 00:41:14.760
wife, because they have no idea about what wives are.

848
00:41:14.820 --> 00:41:18.059
And so they look into the minds of the Salvakians to see what

849
00:41:18.059 --> 00:41:22.139
being a wife entails and they're kind of revolted by it.

850
00:41:22.199 --> 00:41:26.280
And the men kind of say, well, but you really need a good one of

851
00:41:26.280 --> 00:41:27.900
these to teach you a lesson.

852
00:41:27.960 --> 00:41:28.800
You know what I mean?

853
00:41:28.860 --> 00:41:31.920
It really is truly, truly, truly awful.

854
00:41:32.039 --> 00:41:34.199
And a horrific throwback, I think.

855
00:41:34.260 --> 00:41:36.420
That's a kind of 1960s thing.

856
00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:40.920
It's the family guy concept of a rom-com, which is every romantic

857
00:41:40.920 --> 00:41:44.340
comedy ever can be summed up with a man saying to a woman.

858
00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:47.159
I'm going to show you how all of your problems can be solved by my

859
00:41:47.159 --> 00:41:47.760
penis.

860
00:41:47.820 --> 00:41:49.139
Yeah, yeah, that's really it.

861
00:41:49.199 --> 00:41:52.320
The Salvakians and their magic penises. are going to solve this

862
00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:52.860
entire problem.

863
00:41:52.920 --> 00:41:56.579
My huge problem with this as well. is the fact that the Dr. Perry

864
00:41:56.579 --> 00:42:00.059
seem to travel a great distance from a temperate climate to the

865
00:42:00.059 --> 00:42:02.940
ice caves in a matter of minutes.

866
00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:06.300
And, you know, I think their whole pot about the ice warriors

867
00:42:06.300 --> 00:42:10.619
wanting to change the actual climate of the planet is okay.

868
00:42:10.679 --> 00:42:13.500
But it's all framed within this pathetic framework.

869
00:42:13.500 --> 00:42:15.960
With the time lords involved, the women have got this time lord

870
00:42:15.960 --> 00:42:19.320
ambassador coming in because they want to go forward in time or

871
00:42:19.320 --> 00:42:22.320
something to prevent these men from overtaking their planet

872
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:24.360
because they've foreseen a time when this will happen.

873
00:42:24.420 --> 00:42:28.559
And this timelord ambassador is a timelord bully of the doctor

874
00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:30.360
sort of get the doctor cowering in his TARDIS.

875
00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:32.579
Yeah, it's like, what the hell?

876
00:42:32.639 --> 00:42:35.159
The guy who actually plays him does actually does a really good

877
00:42:35.159 --> 00:42:38.159
job and he's a pompous git who deserves his up and comments and

878
00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:40.019
does get it and that's actually quite good.

879
00:42:40.139 --> 00:42:44.820
But the whole thing, like this is version one of the script.

880
00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:49.800
This is like, okay, he'll go back to Eric Saywood, and Eric say

881
00:42:49.800 --> 00:42:53.039
we'll say right, with any luck, get rid of this, this, this, and

882
00:42:53.039 --> 00:42:53.280
this.

883
00:42:53.340 --> 00:42:56.039
We need to simplify all this and do a complete rewrite from top to

884
00:42:56.039 --> 00:42:56.280
bottom.

885
00:42:56.400 --> 00:42:59.280
And whether or not that would help, but I don't really see why

886
00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:01.679
Seal has to be in league with the Ice Warriors at all.

887
00:43:01.739 --> 00:43:04.500
He's well played in the audio again by Nabil Shabin.

888
00:43:04.559 --> 00:43:07.619
He wants to sell woolly jumpers, the people of Magnus, once the

889
00:43:07.619 --> 00:43:10.440
Ice Warriors have changed their climbers, and that's a bit more

890
00:43:10.440 --> 00:43:12.840
interesting and a bit more Doctor Who-ish, really.

891
00:43:12.900 --> 00:43:16.380
But you see, there is a very complex reason that cylinderless

892
00:43:16.380 --> 00:43:17.280
Warriors are working together.

893
00:43:17.340 --> 00:43:19.800
It's in the novel, but for some reason it doesn't make it into the

894
00:43:19.800 --> 00:43:20.579
big finish version.

895
00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:22.019
And that is that they're both green.

896
00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:24.599
Yeah, that's the colour for monsters.

897
00:43:24.659 --> 00:43:25.079
It's green.

898
00:43:25.139 --> 00:43:25.739
That's right.

899
00:43:25.800 --> 00:43:27.239
Yeah. making that up.

900
00:43:27.780 --> 00:43:33.659
No, and the Ice Warriors, you know, who are generic, you know

901
00:43:33.659 --> 00:43:37.079
lizard aliens from Mars and were always really sort of fairly

902
00:43:37.079 --> 00:43:40.920
crummy and aren't even that good when they're brought back for the

903
00:43:40.920 --> 00:43:43.260
new series, although they're improved a beard.

904
00:43:43.320 --> 00:43:45.300
You know, they're kind of terrible.

905
00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:46.679
Who wants to see them back?

906
00:43:46.739 --> 00:43:49.019
It's like bringing the celestial toy maker back.

907
00:43:49.079 --> 00:43:50.820
This is now getting stupid.

908
00:43:50.940 --> 00:43:53.699
And the point that Todd made before.

909
00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:57.900
They seem to be able to sort of crawl from the equator to the

910
00:43:57.900 --> 00:44:00.300
poles of this planet in a very short amount of time.

911
00:44:00.360 --> 00:44:03.360
And that's because all of the planets are small.

912
00:44:03.420 --> 00:44:07.980
That planet the Tranquilla and Amelia are on is like kind of 3

913
00:44:07.980 --> 00:44:10.860
rooms and, you know, half a dozen people.

914
00:44:10.920 --> 00:44:13.079
This planet is really small.

915
00:44:13.500 --> 00:44:18.480
The show now does people crawling around corridors, doing science

916
00:44:18.480 --> 00:44:20.039
fiction things to each other.

917
00:44:20.099 --> 00:44:22.260
I'm really, really bored of it.

918
00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:29.460
And it makes me think that season 23 as conceived before the

919
00:44:29.460 --> 00:44:32.699
cancellation would have been worse than what we got.

920
00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:36.539
And what we got wasn't all that good, but it is really, really

921
00:44:36.539 --> 00:44:40.440
well and truly pastime that someone with some ideas took over the

922
00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:41.219
show and fixed it.

923
00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:45.119
There is something I remember really liking in the audio

924
00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:48.539
production, and that is the realisation of the cliffhanger.

925
00:44:48.599 --> 00:44:52.019
And saying I really like it.

926
00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:56.099
It's not, I really like it in the same way I love Tom Baker and

927
00:44:56.099 --> 00:44:58.800
Lala Ward running around Paris and it makes me feel nice.

928
00:44:58.860 --> 00:45:02.880
It's the bit where Perry discovers there's ice warriors at work

929
00:45:02.880 --> 00:45:06.360
but they set off the explosives and the planet's axis is tilting

930
00:45:06.360 --> 00:45:10.260
and 0 my god, we're all going to die, and the credits crash in, and

931
00:45:10.260 --> 00:45:13.920
I just sat there at my desk thinking, are we really doing this?

932
00:45:14.039 --> 00:45:16.320
Are you really wanting?

933
00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:17.460
Okay, I'm gonna go with it.

934
00:45:17.519 --> 00:45:18.360
I get it.

935
00:45:18.420 --> 00:45:20.219
I get that this is completely ridiculous.

936
00:45:20.280 --> 00:45:24.239
But kudos to you, big finish, for not trying to update a damn

937
00:45:24.239 --> 00:45:24.599
thing.

938
00:45:24.659 --> 00:45:26.880
You know, keep it as terrible as it was.

939
00:45:26.940 --> 00:45:30.420
It's the Terry Nation school of astronomy, isn't it, really?

940
00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:34.260
So we're not quite sure about the orbital path of a planet and

941
00:45:34.260 --> 00:45:35.400
it's axial hilt.

942
00:45:35.460 --> 00:45:37.679
We actually don't know what the difference between those 2 things

943
00:45:37.739 --> 00:45:38.940
is.

944
00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:43.739
We have the planet actually moving so that it's twice as far away

945
00:45:43.739 --> 00:45:47.460
from its sun as a result of these nuclear explosions.

946
00:45:47.519 --> 00:45:51.179
And then there's a handy backup set of nuclear explosions that the

947
00:45:51.179 --> 00:45:55.019
doctor uses to get it back into that, which just, like, it

948
00:45:55.019 --> 00:45:56.159
literally makes notes.

949
00:45:56.219 --> 00:45:57.300
And like I don't care.

950
00:45:57.360 --> 00:46:01.260
This isn't a realistic science fiction program, but it is just

951
00:46:01.260 --> 00:46:03.900
kind of a bit lazy and stupid, isn't it?

952
00:46:03.960 --> 00:46:06.360
Yeah, it's like, you know what, I should not be enjoying Doctor

953
00:46:06.360 --> 00:46:09.719
Who on the same level as I enjoy mystery Science Theatre 3000.

954
00:46:09.900 --> 00:46:11.280
I really shouldn't be.

955
00:46:11.579 --> 00:46:14.519
So we're sort of saying that this would not have made it.

956
00:46:15.179 --> 00:46:17.699
Even worse, I think it would have...

957
00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:20.820
Yeah, I think it would have too, because the Philip Martin, Ron

958
00:46:20.820 --> 00:46:23.579
Jones collaboration from the following year is substantially

959
00:46:23.579 --> 00:46:25.019
better than this, I think.

960
00:46:25.079 --> 00:46:28.260
I think it's ill-conceived and nasty and they're all sorts of

961
00:46:28.260 --> 00:46:29.219
things I don't like about it.

962
00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:33.179
But it is competent in a way that mission to magnets just isn't.

963
00:46:33.239 --> 00:46:37.139
And that's why I actually prefer the ultimate evil to Mission to

964
00:46:37.139 --> 00:46:41.519
Magnus, because Mission to Magnus, It seems to try to start saying

965
00:46:41.519 --> 00:46:47.400
something about gender identity and sexual politics, but no, it's

966
00:46:47.400 --> 00:46:49.559
just saying women are stupid and need a penis.

967
00:46:50.340 --> 00:46:54.780
It tries to use the ice Warriors, but just goes, they need ice.

968
00:46:54.840 --> 00:46:57.239
How do we get ice by setting off some nuclear weapons?

969
00:46:57.300 --> 00:46:58.980
How does that work, Philip?

970
00:46:59.039 --> 00:47:00.179
I don't know, Eric, shut up.

971
00:47:00.239 --> 00:47:05.099
Whereas ultimate evil is simplistic, certainly, and if you read

972
00:47:05.099 --> 00:47:07.679
the novelisation, there are moments where a character says

973
00:47:07.679 --> 00:47:10.980
something and you realise they have a hidden meaning behind what

974
00:47:10.980 --> 00:47:12.900
they're saying and then they say what the hidden meaning is

975
00:47:12.900 --> 00:47:13.320
anyway.

976
00:47:13.380 --> 00:47:14.579
It's by no means perfect.

977
00:47:14.639 --> 00:47:19.619
But the characters within it, all the name characters each go on a

978
00:47:19.619 --> 00:47:22.920
bit of a journey and end up in a different place from where they

979
00:47:22.920 --> 00:47:23.460
started.

980
00:47:23.519 --> 00:47:26.940
And for the most part, end up in a better place than where they

981
00:47:26.940 --> 00:47:27.360
started.

982
00:47:27.420 --> 00:47:30.360
Whereas in this story, no one really ends up in a better place

983
00:47:30.360 --> 00:47:31.199
than when they started.

984
00:47:31.260 --> 00:47:33.239
It's got some great concepts.

985
00:47:33.300 --> 00:47:36.179
And I think still in the Ice Warriors working together, especially

986
00:47:36.179 --> 00:47:38.880
when we've established in the pertly stories that the Ice Warriors

987
00:47:38.880 --> 00:47:41.940
do believe in honour and have a code of conduct and still has no

988
00:47:41.940 --> 00:47:43.440
code of conduct whatsoever.

989
00:47:43.500 --> 00:47:46.440
That could have been an interesting idea to play with, but no, we

990
00:47:46.440 --> 00:47:46.920
don't get that.

991
00:47:51.480 --> 00:47:56.280
All right, um, the 1st story was going to be the Hollows of Time

992
00:47:56.280 --> 00:47:57.420
written by Christopher H.

993
00:47:57.420 --> 00:48:00.360
Bidmeet and directed by Matthew Robinson again.

994
00:48:00.420 --> 00:48:02.159
So would that have been flawed and plotless?

995
00:48:02.219 --> 00:48:03.059
Sorry, Chris.

996
00:48:03.239 --> 00:48:05.340
Well, you know what?

997
00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:08.460
The big finish audio has so many compromises.

998
00:48:08.519 --> 00:48:11.639
The script was originally 19,000 words cut down to 13,000.

999
00:48:11.760 --> 00:48:14.280
It involves attractators, but they don't get to speak.

1000
00:48:14.340 --> 00:48:15.599
Everything's off screen.

1001
00:48:15.659 --> 00:48:17.340
We've got flying cars in space.

1002
00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:19.559
We've got robots, we've got an English village.

1003
00:48:19.679 --> 00:48:20.639
I don't know.

1004
00:48:20.699 --> 00:48:22.500
I think Christopher wrote this.

1005
00:48:22.500 --> 00:48:26.340
It's the ultimate FU to John Nathan Turner, and Eric said, saying

1006
00:48:26.340 --> 00:48:29.340
make this if you dare, because we could not afford this.

1007
00:48:29.400 --> 00:48:32.820
And of course, then there's this other character called Professor

1008
00:48:32.820 --> 00:48:33.300
Stream.

1009
00:48:33.360 --> 00:48:36.420
Now, I want you to do an anagram extreme, Nathan.

1010
00:48:36.659 --> 00:48:40.260
Could it be an anagram of Estram?

1011
00:48:40.320 --> 00:48:41.519
Yes.

1012
00:48:41.519 --> 00:48:45.599
So it's supposed to be obviously the master, but we've, you know

1013
00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:48.659
we've already seen the master of disguise back in Kestrepalva 5

1014
00:48:48.659 --> 00:48:49.199
years later.

1015
00:48:49.260 --> 00:48:51.300
It just doesn't work as far as I'm concerned.

1016
00:48:51.360 --> 00:48:53.639
And the other thing is the big finish audio is completely

1017
00:48:53.639 --> 00:48:56.159
compromised because they actually can't get the rights to the

1018
00:48:56.159 --> 00:48:57.900
master, so there is actually no reveal.

1019
00:48:57.960 --> 00:49:03.000
Yeah, it was a situation that existed with Russell T. Davies era

1020
00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:06.179
of Doctor Who, which was less of an issue with Stephen Moffatt

1021
00:49:06.179 --> 00:49:06.360
actually.

1022
00:49:06.420 --> 00:49:09.000
Stephen Moffat's production office, didn't mind so much, but

1023
00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:09.659
Russell St.

1024
00:49:09.659 --> 00:49:12.659
Davies had this kind of thing of if we're using a character or

1025
00:49:12.659 --> 00:49:16.860
villain on the show, we don't want them featured in the audios for

1026
00:49:16.860 --> 00:49:18.840
sort of an 18 month period either side.

1027
00:49:18.900 --> 00:49:24.300
So this season came out around the same time as the Mr. Saxon

1028
00:49:24.300 --> 00:49:25.380
plotline of series 3.

1029
00:49:25.619 --> 00:49:26.280
Right.

1030
00:49:26.280 --> 00:49:30.539
So they had to make Professor Streamer not mention it was the

1031
00:49:30.539 --> 00:49:33.599
master, which also meant it's not Jeffrey Beaver's.

1032
00:49:33.659 --> 00:49:36.420
It's actually, and this is one of the stories highlights.

1033
00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:37.619
David Garfield.

1034
00:49:37.679 --> 00:49:39.000
It's Neva.

1035
00:49:39.059 --> 00:49:40.139
Oh, really?

1036
00:49:40.139 --> 00:49:42.239
The inexplicably hot David Garfield.

1037
00:49:42.300 --> 00:49:43.800
I mean, who'd go for a bald man with a beard.

1038
00:49:43.860 --> 00:49:44.159
I know.

1039
00:49:44.219 --> 00:49:49.860
But yeah, even in the making of the interviewer says to Colin.

1040
00:49:49.920 --> 00:49:53.460
So with Professor Stream, what do you think is happening there on

1041
00:49:53.460 --> 00:49:56.099
contest, well, I got the impression that there's something the

1042
00:49:56.099 --> 00:49:58.260
doctor's meant to know and we've got this whole storytelling

1043
00:49:58.260 --> 00:50:00.659
device where the story starts with the Dr. and Perry and the

1044
00:50:00.659 --> 00:50:03.900
TARDIS trying to tell each other the story but not remembering it

1045
00:50:03.900 --> 00:50:07.019
properly, which is a great way to involve your audience.

1046
00:50:07.079 --> 00:50:11.280
But then the interviewer says, well, Colin, Professor Stream is

1047
00:50:11.280 --> 00:50:14.460
actually meant to be, and it's the Matrix bleeping sound effect

1048
00:50:14.460 --> 00:50:15.239
the mysterious planet.

1049
00:50:15.300 --> 00:50:17.039
And Colin says, oh.

1050
00:50:17.099 --> 00:50:18.480
Oh, I didn't get that at all.

1051
00:50:19.019 --> 00:50:23.219
So yeah, it's a horrible compromise Big Finish had to make, but

1052
00:50:23.219 --> 00:50:28.260
it's kind of a catch 22 in that the Lost Stories ended up being a

1053
00:50:28.260 --> 00:50:29.519
4 season run for them.

1054
00:50:29.579 --> 00:50:34.139
They did like 20 or 25 of them across different eras, but they

1055
00:50:34.139 --> 00:50:35.400
couldn't have known that at the time.

1056
00:50:35.519 --> 00:50:38.219
So they had the choice of doing the story and not saying

1057
00:50:38.219 --> 00:50:42.000
explicitly that it was the master or holding off on doing the

1058
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:43.800
story and possibly never getting the chance to make it.

1059
00:50:43.980 --> 00:50:48.480
As for the story itself, it's just a mess.

1060
00:50:48.539 --> 00:50:49.619
Yeah, just a mess.

1061
00:50:49.679 --> 00:50:50.280
Don't even bother.

1062
00:50:50.340 --> 00:50:51.360
Like, don't even bother.

1063
00:50:51.420 --> 00:50:52.559
Just don't listen to it.

1064
00:50:52.619 --> 00:50:53.340
Just don't.

1065
00:50:53.820 --> 00:50:56.940
If you find yourself listening to Big Finish stories and you can

1066
00:50:56.940 --> 00:51:00.960
easily imagine the locations and the and the visuals and what have

1067
00:51:00.960 --> 00:51:01.139
you.

1068
00:51:01.199 --> 00:51:03.420
It's weird for an audio story.

1069
00:51:03.480 --> 00:51:06.420
It's incredibly, impressively visual.

1070
00:51:06.480 --> 00:51:10.079
That cliffhanger to episode one where the doctor is hanging onto a

1071
00:51:10.079 --> 00:51:13.739
car travelling through space and warp speed as pieces of it

1072
00:51:13.739 --> 00:51:14.400
disappear.

1073
00:51:14.460 --> 00:51:18.119
If you can imagine that, it's a great moment, what does it have to

1074
00:51:18.119 --> 00:51:18.780
do with the story?

1075
00:51:18.780 --> 00:51:21.780
I listened to it again 2 weeks ago and I can't tell you.

1076
00:51:21.840 --> 00:51:25.619
So bit me when he wrote Frontios, which I think is really good.

1077
00:51:25.679 --> 00:51:29.519
Yeah, does actually write something that couldn't possibly be

1078
00:51:29.519 --> 00:51:32.519
produced, and obviously it ends up being cut down and we had that

1079
00:51:32.519 --> 00:51:38.280
the sort of tragic Plantagenet's father in the stupid, you know

1080
00:51:38.280 --> 00:51:42.119
cardboard tube thing, which was supposed to be a sort of giant leg

1081
00:51:42.119 --> 00:51:45.059
wheel of lots of dismembered bodies joined together.

1082
00:51:45.119 --> 00:51:47.579
It was meant to be dancers sitting on top of each other like a

1083
00:51:47.579 --> 00:51:48.480
Mardi Gras podcast.

1084
00:51:48.539 --> 00:51:49.380
Yeah, yeah, terrible.

1085
00:51:49.440 --> 00:51:53.039
So he does have form with that, but you've got to think that

1086
00:51:53.039 --> 00:51:58.139
Bidmead story would at least have been interesting.

1087
00:51:58.199 --> 00:52:01.079
Well, I think if they, you know, if it had been majorly script

1088
00:52:01.079 --> 00:52:04.739
edited to probably eliminate the tractators who I just think don't

1089
00:52:04.739 --> 00:52:06.900
necessarily need to even be in the plot, like you could come up

1090
00:52:06.900 --> 00:52:09.000
with another device because there's also robots and other things

1091
00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:09.360
going on.

1092
00:52:09.420 --> 00:52:11.280
It just needs to be simplified and cut down.

1093
00:52:11.340 --> 00:52:14.880
Whether or not Chris would have said, yes, okay to that or not, who

1094
00:52:14.880 --> 00:52:15.239
knows?

1095
00:52:15.300 --> 00:52:18.960
But, you know, it's just so I just think it's so compromised all

1096
00:52:18.960 --> 00:52:20.280
the way through and a mess, as you say.

1097
00:52:20.340 --> 00:52:21.420
Yeah, yeah.

1098
00:52:21.480 --> 00:52:24.539
And it was in the development of this, that they approached

1099
00:52:24.539 --> 00:52:30.000
Christopher Hamilton Bidmead to write a big a new big finish story

1100
00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:32.940
which eventually became Renaissance of the Daleks, I believe.

1101
00:52:33.480 --> 00:52:37.800
And there's a reason that the front cover of that says from an

1102
00:52:37.800 --> 00:52:41.159
idea for Christopher Hamilton bid me because again, it's such a

1103
00:52:41.159 --> 00:52:45.420
mess because they they just reached an impasse where neither side

1104
00:52:45.420 --> 00:52:46.559
really wanted to compromise.

1105
00:52:46.619 --> 00:52:52.619
But in the end, Bidman just said, okay, look, use the idea and go

1106
00:52:52.619 --> 00:52:53.639
off and make your own thing.

1107
00:52:53.699 --> 00:52:57.360
The weird thing is though, when Christopher Hamilton Bidmead

1108
00:52:57.360 --> 00:53:00.659
writes a mess, it's still strangely enjoyable because you're left

1109
00:53:00.659 --> 00:53:03.780
there with a bemuse smile on your face saying, what the hell did I

1110
00:53:03.780 --> 00:53:04.440
just experience?

1111
00:53:04.739 --> 00:53:08.699
Whereas when Philip Martin writes a mess?

1112
00:53:08.940 --> 00:53:10.920
It's just a mess.

1113
00:53:14.579 --> 00:53:19.019
Bring it back now, we won't send it.

1114
00:53:19.019 --> 00:53:21.480
Sometime in distress.

1115
00:53:22.199 --> 00:53:26.460
Let's all answer his ass, ass!

1116
00:53:26.460 --> 00:53:29.340
Stop, stop, baby.

1117
00:53:29.400 --> 00:53:31.619
Okay, the children of January was gonna be the last story written

1118
00:53:31.619 --> 00:53:36.000
by Michael Feeney Callum, directed by Bob Gabriel, who I don't

1119
00:53:36.000 --> 00:53:40.019
know who that is, but it was never written, and it's not an

1120
00:53:40.019 --> 00:53:40.500
audio.

1121
00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:44.280
They did negotiate with him, but because Michael Finney Callen is

1122
00:53:44.280 --> 00:53:45.420
still an in demand writer.

1123
00:53:45.480 --> 00:53:46.679
He's writing novels and whatnot.

1124
00:53:46.739 --> 00:53:50.099
He wanted to adapt to himself, but he simply didn't have the time

1125
00:53:50.099 --> 00:53:51.659
to fit it into his schedule.

1126
00:53:51.719 --> 00:53:54.059
So that was the season that was going to be.

1127
00:53:54.179 --> 00:53:58.019
Big finish obviously had more audios than that in this missing

1128
00:53:58.019 --> 00:53:58.440
season.

1129
00:53:58.500 --> 00:54:02.940
There's a couple that are based on ideas from various writers, one

1130
00:54:02.940 --> 00:54:06.840
based from Barbara Clegg, called Point of Entry, which I think is

1131
00:54:06.840 --> 00:54:09.960
a great story, but it's very big finish, not really 1985.

1132
00:54:10.079 --> 00:54:13.079
There's another one called Guardians of Prophecy, which is based

1133
00:54:13.079 --> 00:54:17.340
on a one page outlined by Johnny Byrne about to do with Trarkan

1134
00:54:17.340 --> 00:54:19.019
but I think it's just awful, so don't even go there.

1135
00:54:19.079 --> 00:54:22.260
There's another one called Power Play, which actually has Victoria

1136
00:54:22.260 --> 00:54:22.739
in it.

1137
00:54:22.800 --> 00:54:25.079
So an interesting, well, interesting in the fact that you have an

1138
00:54:25.079 --> 00:54:29.219
old companion coming back in, but it's so boring and I failed to

1139
00:54:29.219 --> 00:54:31.079
get through it every single time I listened to it.

1140
00:54:31.139 --> 00:54:34.440
You know, I have a theory that the longer a science fiction show

1141
00:54:34.440 --> 00:54:37.860
goes on, the chance that one of its episodes will have the title

1142
00:54:37.860 --> 00:54:39.659
power play approaches one.

1143
00:54:40.679 --> 00:54:44.460
There's another one called the Macros, which I quite like written

1144
00:54:44.460 --> 00:54:47.639
by Ingrid Pitt, which involves the Philadelphia experiment.

1145
00:54:47.699 --> 00:54:49.079
Ingrid Pitt.

1146
00:54:49.139 --> 00:54:50.219
Yeah, wonderful.

1147
00:54:50.219 --> 00:54:51.059
Tony Rudland.

1148
00:54:51.119 --> 00:54:54.719
The 1st episodes, I think, are very of the time, the last few

1149
00:54:54.719 --> 00:54:57.300
episodes are much more big finish, so it's sort of my bonus buy, if

1150
00:54:57.300 --> 00:54:59.460
you want to get something that's a bit of a mix of both.

1151
00:54:59.519 --> 00:55:02.940
And something interesting about that one, that was the replacement

1152
00:55:02.940 --> 00:55:06.360
in this run for either the ultimate evil or the children of

1153
00:55:06.360 --> 00:55:06.900
January.

1154
00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:07.980
It fell through.

1155
00:55:08.039 --> 00:55:11.039
And what happened was Ingrid was, I believe, at a convention with

1156
00:55:11.039 --> 00:55:13.800
some of the big Finnish guys and came up to them and said, I hear

1157
00:55:13.800 --> 00:55:15.780
you're looking for Doctor Who stories that were never made.

1158
00:55:15.900 --> 00:55:18.480
Um, we put one in.

1159
00:55:18.539 --> 00:55:22.320
I'll try and find it for you and literally all they had left was

1160
00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:26.159
the hard copy of the computer version they wrote up and it was it

1161
00:55:26.159 --> 00:55:28.320
was just a plot outline that was then developed.

1162
00:55:28.500 --> 00:55:32.460
There's another one called Paradise 5, which was actually going to

1163
00:55:32.460 --> 00:55:36.179
be for season 23 with Mellon the trial, but this is with Perry, so

1164
00:55:36.179 --> 00:55:38.039
it's too compromised as far as I'm concerned.

1165
00:55:38.159 --> 00:55:40.860
There are 2 others that I just want to mention very briefly.

1166
00:55:40.920 --> 00:55:43.619
One is called Leviathan, which I think is absolutely stunning.

1167
00:55:43.679 --> 00:55:46.980
Although episode 4 would need to be rewritten to make it doable on

1168
00:55:46.980 --> 00:55:50.940
television, but it is, I think, the best of the whole lot. and it

1169
00:55:50.940 --> 00:55:51.659
makes my season.

1170
00:55:51.719 --> 00:55:55.860
The other one is called the 1st Sontarans, written by Andrew

1171
00:55:55.860 --> 00:55:56.340
Smith.

1172
00:55:56.400 --> 00:56:00.960
Andrew Smith of Full Circle, and that was in the original slot for

1173
00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:02.519
the 2 doctors.

1174
00:56:02.579 --> 00:56:05.820
And again, I think it's really good because he actually did a

1175
00:56:05.820 --> 00:56:08.639
scene by scene breakdown, much like Warrior's Gates, it was

1176
00:56:08.639 --> 00:56:11.460
written as a novel with all the dialogue and all he had to do was

1177
00:56:11.460 --> 00:56:13.860
take the dialogue out and put it into a script for audio.

1178
00:56:13.920 --> 00:56:15.179
So it really does feel at the time.

1179
00:56:15.239 --> 00:56:21.480
Again, episode four, I think, is too much for Doctor's budget and

1180
00:56:21.480 --> 00:56:22.440
would need to be rewritten.

1181
00:56:22.500 --> 00:56:23.219
Yeah.

1182
00:56:23.219 --> 00:56:25.500
Those last 2 you mentioned, Leviathan.

1183
00:56:25.559 --> 00:56:29.699
The 1st one Tyrons, I think, are the pick of these 11 lost stories

1184
00:56:29.699 --> 00:56:30.900
they did for Colin.

1185
00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:32.760
Leviathan just blew me away.

1186
00:56:32.760 --> 00:56:35.519
And it was another one that the big finish in the doctorate

1187
00:56:35.519 --> 00:56:40.139
production office just kind of had as a name on paper, but one of

1188
00:56:40.139 --> 00:56:43.920
them knew the son of the writer who has since been working for B

1189
00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:44.400
Finisher.

1190
00:56:44.460 --> 00:56:47.820
So it was the son adapting his father's work after the father had

1191
00:56:47.820 --> 00:56:49.440
passed away, which was very nice.

1192
00:56:49.500 --> 00:56:53.099
I think that's possibly why it came out so well because there was

1193
00:56:53.099 --> 00:56:54.239
so much love put into it.

1194
00:56:54.300 --> 00:56:57.659
The 1st on Tyrans was actually one I came to with really low

1195
00:56:57.659 --> 00:56:58.199
expectations.

1196
00:56:58.260 --> 00:57:00.659
I thought, this is going to be Genesis of the Daleks, but with

1197
00:57:00.659 --> 00:57:04.739
Santarans, but it ends up being this really lovely, touching

1198
00:57:04.739 --> 00:57:07.800
bittersweet, romantic story.

1199
00:57:07.920 --> 00:57:11.940
I mean, yeah, if you only get 2 of these, and I think you should

1200
00:57:11.940 --> 00:57:14.039
get them all because they're very cheap now, these stories.

1201
00:57:14.099 --> 00:57:16.860
But if you only get to Leviathan and 1st on tyrants.

1202
00:57:16.920 --> 00:57:21.179
Right, so for me, just as a conclusion to all of this.

1203
00:57:21.239 --> 00:57:25.500
If I'm wanting to have more of this era and sort of see a

1204
00:57:25.500 --> 00:57:27.960
progression from revelation of the dialects before we get into

1205
00:57:27.960 --> 00:57:30.659
trial of a time, Lord, and actually have more stories with Colin

1206
00:57:30.659 --> 00:57:33.300
and Nicola, this is the season that I would have.

1207
00:57:33.360 --> 00:57:35.280
I would have the nightmare fair.

1208
00:57:35.340 --> 00:57:37.739
It's not outstanding, but it's solid enough.

1209
00:57:37.800 --> 00:57:41.219
I would have the song of Menatra because I think it's quite good.

1210
00:57:41.280 --> 00:57:44.760
Leviathan is in there because I think it's outstanding.

1211
00:57:44.820 --> 00:57:48.480
We've got slipback because I think it is very, it's very so much

1212
00:57:48.480 --> 00:57:48.659
fun.

1213
00:57:48.719 --> 00:57:51.780
The 1st Santarin's, I think, is great.

1214
00:57:51.840 --> 00:57:55.920
My bonus by is the macros, because it's a bit more big finishy.

1215
00:57:55.980 --> 00:57:57.840
And if you really have to go there.

1216
00:57:57.900 --> 00:58:00.119
The hollows of time.

1217
00:58:00.119 --> 00:58:04.800
Because I do like the stuff set on earth, but there's a small

1218
00:58:04.800 --> 00:58:08.400
annoying child that says sand creatures every 5 seconds.

1219
00:58:08.460 --> 00:58:09.000
Yes, God.

1220
00:58:09.000 --> 00:58:11.219
But for a Christopher H.B. meat thing, that's interesting.

1221
00:58:11.280 --> 00:58:15.480
So by doing this, I'd actually got a season in my head that

1222
00:58:15.480 --> 00:58:20.039
bridges between the 2 seasons and I suddenly feel having now

1223
00:58:20.039 --> 00:58:24.059
watched all of Colin a bit more satisfied that I've got more of

1224
00:58:24.059 --> 00:58:26.219
this doctor and I can see what's going on.

1225
00:58:26.280 --> 00:58:30.719
I think what's interesting, though, is to think about what would

1226
00:58:30.719 --> 00:58:34.860
have happened had the cancellation not taking place and what we

1227
00:58:34.860 --> 00:58:35.400
would have got.

1228
00:58:35.460 --> 00:58:44.159
And from what I've managed to see, I think that we would have done

1229
00:58:44.159 --> 00:58:49.019
more of the same as season 22 only, probably worse.

1230
00:58:49.079 --> 00:58:55.559
And I have to say that what we got instead is at least better than

1231
00:58:55.559 --> 00:58:59.400
how it sounds, the original season 23 was going to be.

1232
00:58:59.460 --> 00:59:03.059
I have to agree with that because something that occurred to me as

1233
00:59:03.059 --> 00:59:05.400
I was looking at the 6 stories as they would have been made.

1234
00:59:05.460 --> 00:59:08.219
Your dream season sounds amazing, Todd, to be honest.

1235
00:59:08.280 --> 00:59:12.599
But, okay, the nightmare fair, we have, the toy maker is back. and

1236
00:59:12.599 --> 00:59:14.820
they had signed Michael Goff to play him again.

1237
00:59:14.880 --> 00:59:19.920
The ultimate evil, we have a new villain, but the villains met the

1238
00:59:19.920 --> 00:59:22.079
doctor before, and 2 people on this planet have met the doctor

1239
00:59:22.079 --> 00:59:22.559
before.

1240
00:59:22.619 --> 00:59:25.260
You know, so it's the time lash problem all over again.

1241
00:59:25.320 --> 00:59:27.659
I think it would have been a 1000000 miles better than time lash

1242
00:59:27.659 --> 00:59:28.380
but it is that problem.

1243
00:59:28.440 --> 00:59:31.739
We've got Mission to Magnus, which has still in the ice warriors

1244
00:59:31.739 --> 00:59:36.000
coming back and a new time lord we haven't met before, who makes

1245
00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:37.500
the doctor look like a weakling.

1246
00:59:37.559 --> 00:59:41.099
You know, which is kind of say woods thing again, if you read that

1247
00:59:41.099 --> 00:59:42.300
novelisation of slipped back.

1248
00:59:42.360 --> 00:59:45.900
He is taking pot shots at how ineffectual and feckless the doctor

1249
00:59:45.900 --> 00:59:46.619
is.

1250
00:59:46.679 --> 00:59:48.719
Yellow fever and how to cure it.

1251
00:59:48.780 --> 00:59:51.599
We would have had the Rani and the autons, and in the 1st draft

1252
00:59:51.599 --> 00:59:54.840
the master, but he was dropped and he wouldn't have appeared in

1253
00:59:54.840 --> 00:59:58.619
the story because he was coming back next week with the master and

1254
00:59:58.619 --> 01:00:02.099
the Tractators, and then the children of January, I presume, would

1255
01:00:02.099 --> 01:00:05.820
have been completely original, who knows?

1256
01:00:05.880 --> 01:00:11.039
As a speculative script, also the script, Gallifrey was sought

1257
01:00:11.039 --> 01:00:15.840
from Pip and Jane Baker as a possible season ender before they

1258
01:00:15.840 --> 01:00:19.139
settled on the trial theme entirely, and it would have seen the

1259
01:00:19.139 --> 01:00:20.340
destruction of Gallifrey.

1260
01:00:20.880 --> 01:00:24.480
So that was a possible contender in there as well.

1261
01:00:24.539 --> 01:00:27.239
But that was after all these were cancelled and before trial was

1262
01:00:27.239 --> 01:00:27.659
commissioned.

1263
01:00:27.719 --> 01:00:28.980
It was just a speculative idea.

1264
01:00:29.519 --> 01:00:32.460
I think 2 problems that would have been solved from the previous

1265
01:00:32.460 --> 01:00:36.539
season based on what I'm what I've read in these novelisations and

1266
01:00:36.539 --> 01:00:38.219
scripts and extracts I've seen.

1267
01:00:38.280 --> 01:00:40.860
I think the Dr. Perry relationship would have been much as we see

1268
01:00:40.860 --> 01:00:43.679
it in the mysterious planet, with them enjoying each other's

1269
01:00:43.679 --> 01:00:46.500
company and joking together and, you know, just kind of needling

1270
01:00:46.500 --> 01:00:48.900
each other rather than full on bitch fests.

1271
01:00:49.139 --> 01:00:54.239
And I also get the impression that there would have been less

1272
01:00:54.239 --> 01:00:58.500
imitable bloodthirsty violence.

1273
01:00:59.760 --> 01:01:03.780
So hopefully those 2 things would have improved, but God, the

1274
01:01:03.780 --> 01:01:07.260
continuity fest and are we meet again, doctor?

1275
01:01:07.320 --> 01:01:09.000
And that is a problem for audiences.

1276
01:01:09.059 --> 01:01:12.719
Audiences don't want to have to remember 10 years ago, 5 years

1277
01:01:12.719 --> 01:01:13.079
ago.

1278
01:01:13.139 --> 01:01:16.019
Sometimes even 2 years ago, unless they're really, really invested

1279
01:01:16.019 --> 01:01:22.619
in the program, and we're only getting viewers of 6 to 7 million

1280
01:01:22.619 --> 01:01:25.440
not even a 1000000 of whom would have been big fans who own the

1281
01:01:25.440 --> 01:01:26.940
Doctor Who Monster book, I would say.

1282
01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:30.599
So, yeah, it's a bit, it's a bit bad that they were still going

1283
01:01:30.599 --> 01:01:31.079
down that path.

1284
01:01:56.280 --> 01:01:58.679
You okay, dear listeners?

1285
01:01:58.739 --> 01:02:01.019
We're taking off from the planet January.

1286
01:02:01.079 --> 01:02:03.360
Let just assume that's where that last story was going to take

1287
01:02:03.360 --> 01:02:03.719
place.

1288
01:02:03.780 --> 01:02:08.460
And our TARDIS is going to be grabbed by a snatching beam at any

1289
01:02:08.460 --> 01:02:12.659
moment, as next week, we start on Doctor Who's longest ever story

1290
01:02:12.659 --> 01:02:15.960
possibly depending on how you count it, the trial of a time lord.

1291
01:02:16.019 --> 01:02:16.920
So do come back for that.

1292
01:02:17.039 --> 01:02:21.900
In the meantime, I would like to announce that Death to the Daleks

1293
01:02:21.900 --> 01:02:25.380
has won our Pertwee comment along a thon.

1294
01:02:25.440 --> 01:02:27.900
Todd breeds a sigh of relief as it's not the mutants.

1295
01:02:28.559 --> 01:02:30.659
Thank you, dear listeners.

1296
01:02:30.719 --> 01:02:31.739
Thank you.

1297
01:02:31.739 --> 01:02:35.940
And yeah, so we'll be putting that out sometime between the end of

1298
01:02:35.940 --> 01:02:38.159
Colin and the beginning of Sylvester McCoy.

1299
01:02:38.219 --> 01:02:41.340
Also coming at that point, we will have a special big finish

1300
01:02:41.340 --> 01:02:44.159
themed episode where we'll be looking at the big finish plays.

1301
01:02:44.219 --> 01:02:48.119
Doctor Who and the Pirates, the one Doctor Jubilee, and the Brink

1302
01:02:48.119 --> 01:02:50.940
of Death from the Last Adventure Box Set.

1303
01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:52.619
So get ready to listen to those.

1304
01:02:52.800 --> 01:02:56.940
Over on Bondfinger, we've recently started the Timothy Dalton era

1305
01:02:56.940 --> 01:02:57.900
of James Bond.

1306
01:02:57.960 --> 01:03:01.019
Certainly my favourite, so you can check that out on Bondfinger

1307
01:03:00.059 --> 01:03:03.599
com, Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes and Bondfinger cast on

1308
01:03:03.599 --> 01:03:04.139
Twitter.

1309
01:03:04.199 --> 01:03:07.559
And of course, we are Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook and

1310
01:03:07.559 --> 01:03:11.099
iTunes and at FTE podcast on Twitter and of course, Flightthrough

1311
01:03:11.099 --> 01:03:12.420
Entirety.sexy.

1312
01:03:12.840 --> 01:03:16.739
Until next week, may your yellow fever not be incurable.

1313
01:03:16.800 --> 01:03:18.239
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1314
01:03:18.300 --> 01:03:18.840
Good night.

1315
01:03:18.900 --> 01:03:19.500
See you soon.

1316
01:03:21.000 --> 01:03:24.599
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd Beelby, Nathan

1317
01:03:24.599 --> 01:03:25.920
Bottomley, and Brandon Jones.

1318
01:03:25.980 --> 01:03:27.900
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1319
01:03:27.960 --> 01:03:31.559
This episode, don't do it again, Todd, was recorded on the 26th of

1320
01:03:31.559 --> 01:03:32.460
March 2017.

1321
01:03:33.239 --> 01:03:35.639
The next episode will be released on the 30th of April.

1322
01:03:38.699 --> 01:03:41.820
This episode is dedicated to the memory of all those unproduced

1323
01:03:41.820 --> 01:03:45.300
Doctor Who scripts over the years, including the planet in space

1324
01:03:45.300 --> 01:03:49.199
the Impossible Actuary, Day of the Dodo, and Genesis of the

1325
01:03:49.199 --> 01:03:49.679
Dialects.

1326
01:03:50.219 --> 01:03:53.699
That could have been an interesting idea to play with, but no, we

1327
01:03:53.699 --> 01:03:54.179
don't get that.

1328
01:03:55.079 --> 01:03:57.239
So that's another fail.

1329
01:03:57.300 --> 01:03:58.199
Yeah.

1330
01:03:58.260 --> 01:03:58.980
Okay.

1331
01:03:59.039 --> 01:04:02.159
How is this train wreck going to?

1332
01:04:02.760 --> 01:04:05.519
This is not turning out the way I thought it was going back.

1333
01:04:05.579 --> 01:04:06.840
All right.

1334
01:04:06.900 --> 01:04:07.860
The 5th story.