WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 13:46:44

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And returning to our original music can only mean one thing.

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It's time for Flight through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast, which gives you, the listener at home, a taste of Thomas Tickler.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan, and I'm perplexed.

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And welcome to the 1st episode of Flight Through Entirety, covering season 4 of Doctor Who.

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Very important season.

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Of course, we say goodbye to the 1st doctor and hello to the 2nd doctor, Patrick Troughton.

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I'm going to start the clock on our 1st story, odd season four, the smugglers.

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And then, dead man, they could be.

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Norwood.

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Ring.

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Good.

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Well I think we're done.

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I believe this is my story, Nathan.

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But yeah, there's not a lot to it aside from RRR and yeah, there we go.

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Now, we have an interesting position here.

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Doctor Who is in a position of transition.

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Once again, we have another new producer in the form of in as Lloyd.

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Hmm.

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And, you know, Innes had sort of put his stamp on.

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So I put his stamp on with the savages and the war machines.

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I think it's less successful here, really.

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We have a historical based around Cornwall and pirates and smugglers, but it's...

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You know what?

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This was my one and I've watched the recon and I've read the novel and it just leaves you with an immense sense of meh.

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Oh, did you listen to the audio though, the BBC audio?

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Well, I did that when I was listening, watching, watching the record.

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It's not... that's the thing. not bad, but what good there is, it's just sort of outweighed by sort of feeling it's very tired.

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It's hardly surprised that Miss Lloyd decided to drop the historicals just a few stories later.

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I think it is bad.

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And I think it's rightly forgotten.

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I really like quite a lot.

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We've got the good, the bad in the middle.

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So, again, we've talked endlessly about historicals.

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And there are 2 kinds of modes of historicals which have been identified as this Sandra, I have to channel Sandra for once, once an episode.

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There's the Lucarati style historical, like the Aztecs or Marco Polo, where the history is kind of, or the massacre, I think, probably is, is, you know, the quintessential one where we're in a dangerous period of history.

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We can't really affect it and we just need to escape and history is a sort of scary hostile place.

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And then we get the, what, the Donald Cotton version, the Dennis Spooner version, where we drop the characters into a story with strong genre tropes and let them have fun.

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And so presumably this is the pirate story in the same way that the curse of the black spot in series 6, I want to say, is the pirate story.

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Like, I don't know whether it's because I'm not so familiar with the source material in there.

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You know, there are definite sort of antecedents in literature and things, but I just sort of found it, you know, really a bit boring.

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We have the prison and we have the tavern as usual, the pub and the prison in quick succession.

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So everything that we need from a 60s historical.

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But there's just, you know, really very little to say.

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I think production wise, the fun thing about it is there's a season opener.

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We've got a new set of companions who we obviously, you know, we're introduced to it at the end of last year in what will become a tradition, you know, the new companion will be introduced in the final story.

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So we start with these, it's their 1st trip in the TARDIS.

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They're really sort of fun and interesting.

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Richard, you've said before, how much fun you think it would have been to have these 2 young people kind of look after Billy as the doctor for a whole year that they've been sort of quite an interesting sort of idea.

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Kind of Richard Lester.

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You've already mentioned the knack and how to get it or one of the Beatles films.

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It's, yeah, you've got model London jumping right in with, who was the Sabotsky film that they made before, Doctor Who and the Daleks?

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It's Trad Dad.

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It's that kind of thing.

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Yeah, are the old and new.

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And I think if Billy had been more well and better, just cared for by the producers.

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We've seen how sensitive Bill is in other moments and what we allude to that fabulous just recently discovered moment of an interview on the 10th planet DVD that we all just watched before recording this where Billy does.

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Wow, talk about heartfelt truth.

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I really get the sensitivity and candour of this man of how much he cared about this program to the point, in fact, like you get a lot of really, very sensitive people, that he excluded everyone who he identified as an enemy who didn't share the passion that he had.

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So instead of being able to maybe bring people in, he excluded and ostracised, and the more angry he came, he became the more he, including, you know, as people like, uh, wills have said, you know, ostracised people on the set, which we'll guess we'll get to in a moment.

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But this is really poignant for me these last 3 stories.

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Is it 3 stories?

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Two stories.

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Two, two, two.

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I thought it was 3 because so much happens.

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Since we're on the smugglers, and, you know, and again, you can look at, see that Ennis Lloyd's looked over the shoulder of Daphne Deren said, which cozzies haven't we seen yet?

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We've got we've got ancient Greeks and we've got Amarind.

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Oh, hello, pirates.

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But we've got, you know, antecedents are really big at the time that Disney's Pirates of the Caribbean, their 1st film version had come out very recently.

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That was a reasonable success, RR.

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Peter Pan, which is a 50s cartoon from Disney was still doing really well on the summer holiday circuit in cinemas.

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Carry on Jack?

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Carry on Jack.

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Thank you, Carry on.

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That we mentioned last podcast.

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Carry on, Dickon Highwayman.

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And more importantly, Dr. Sin, SYN, which was recently broadcast several times for BBC for extra the radio thing I keep going back to because I love it.

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And that's got Rufus Sewell, Sewell in it as the eponymous hero, Dr. Sewell.

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And it's almost this story.

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And that was a series of little books that were around at the top.

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Just kind of like post-Jack Harkness, Treasure Island, Robert Louis Stevenson kind of thing.

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The pirates were, it's something you should do in the historical and we haven't got around to it yet.

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And I think it's a really jolly romp.

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And lots, there's lots of R's and gnashings and there's some truly horrible, horrible characters and sharing dark ones.

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Cherub is amazing.

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And what about the squire?

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What a dreadful, dreadful black carted character.

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No name, I like it.

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That's the one thing that I like.

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You see, that's the thing.

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I really like him, but I think he's the worst villain in the story.

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Yeah, I think so too.

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Cherub and Captain Pike.

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You expect them to be Illinois because they're pirates and they're doing the sort at RRR.

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Whereas the, um, the squire, he's insidious because he is only out for himself, and he flip-flops throughout the whole story to whatever side will give him the greatest advantage, and he gets away at the end.

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No, you see, I don't read it that way.

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What I read it as is he encounters.

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He's like, you know, like he's a small time smuggler.

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Paul Wits and Jones, by the way.

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He's the enormous sort of hilarious fat guy from the mutants, the evil marshal from solos from the mutants.

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It a really fun performance.

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He's really funny to watch.

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He's got a fabulous wig, you know, all of that.

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And I think that he's like a small time criminal who then discovers what real evil bad guys are about and decides that he doesn't want any of that.

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And so he actually reforms.

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I think it's it's a little bit like the Algernon character in the Highlanders, which we'll talk about next time.

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He does have a little bit of a character arc.

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And so I think he's redeemed.

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I think he gets away with it because it's a redemption arc.

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I mean, it's not very strong. of these things are particularly strong in the 60s.

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I suppose it's hard to tell without the full visuals.

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And can I just say that what we do have suggest that it would have been pretty impressive?

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So this is the 1st time...

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So we go on location to Cornwall.

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It's the 1st time the cast have to stay in a hotel, like they're not driving distance from BBC television centre or wherever.

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Where are we, Lime Grove?

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God knows where we are.

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Were we recording at the moment?

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Wherever we're recording.

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Yeah.

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So they actually go and stay in a hotel in Cornwall.

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The beach scenes look fantastic.

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There is surviving footage of people riding horses around the place outdoors, which is really good.

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And this is another one of these really funny ones where a lot of the moving images in the recon are things that were cut out by the Australian senses.

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And so you just get moments of people being stabbed and that's back to the slide show, you know?

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So it doesn't help that it's just a recon that you're just watching a slideshow, but it is sort of largely pretty forgettable, I think.

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What I find the most interesting thing about it is...

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Looking at the story from a production standpoint, because the actual story itself, You were talking about different types of historicals.

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I think this is a slightly different historical from what we've seen before.

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This is an historical adventure story.

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So it's the kind of adventure story in the style of, say, the last half of the Daleks with a series of events that happen, which just happens to have it and historical backdrop and historical characters.

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But what I find most interesting about it is it sidelines the doctor in the same way he is sidelined in the celestial time maker.

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He's locked up in a room with one of the villains and even ends up playing games.

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You know, he ends up playing a game of cards.

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But the difference is it appears that Innes Lloyd or Brian Hales, who also wrote that story, it appears that someone had the sensitivity to say, we're not just going to shut William in a room and shut him up.

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We're going to put him in a room.

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We're going to take him away from the main plot, but he is going to have lots of the stuff he's good at.

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He's going to have rapport with the villain and be very intelligent and clever while we get Ben and Polly doing the other stuff.

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This feels like Ennis Lloyd kind of going, I know I have to get rid of my star.

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I'm figuring out how to do it, but is there a way I can minimise his role.

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And I find that very, very interesting and certainly Billy seems more comfortable here than he was towards the end of season 3 and this was made immediately afterwards.

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It was made immediately after the warm machines.

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The war machines, you can see him getting his vigour back because it's a, it is a better script than the last few.

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You know, I mean, the savages start the upward. yeah got stuff to do.

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Whereas, yeah, the smugglers is kind of weird because it does sideline him, but at the same time, he gets lots of doctor-ish things to do while Ben and Polly are off doing the legwork.

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And Ben and Polly straight away are an excellent team.

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Yeah, they are great.

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And we've got this interesting inversion of Ian and Barbara.

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I think I mentioned it last month where Polly is sort of mind is wide open to accept anything.

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And Ben is completely, no, it is not that.

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You know, there's not time travel.

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We're just down by the sea and I've got to get back to my ship.

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Whereas, you know, Ian and Barbara, we're both a bit more open-minded, a little bit sceptical, a little bit open-minded, but Polly and Ben, they're just chalk and cheese.

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Stephen Stephen didn't believe.

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In fact, this is what this reminded me of is you've got a historical and the time meddler goes out of its way to establish the new team, the new TARDIS team.

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And this does that as well by giving Ben and Polly a lot to do.

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And presumably they're aware at this point that Ben and Polly are going to have to carry the transition, so they need to be kind of strong characters whom we know.

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And so they are given a lot to do.

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They get to outwit Tom and get out of the obligatory historical prison that they're in.

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And what I like about their outwitting of Tom, they outwit Tom using witchcraft.

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And I then expected that that would be a cliffhacker that, Oh, no, they're going to be burned at stake.

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But no, it's completely forgotten because Tom thinks he's got a curse on him.

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He's not going to tell anyone.

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He's got a curse on him.

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So I quite, I quite liked that that subverted it.

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So maybe I like the story more than I thought.

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I don't know.

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There are certainly lots of good little moments in there.

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The Brian Hale script. and he could almost, well, great links where he does know wrong. and don't forget the other shows he did in the 70s for children's TV, where he was just terrific, really, really good.

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The Robert Banks Stewart with his... of his time.

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I really, really, really like this.

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There's some really lovely little moments in it.

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And again, Billy's stuff is good when he has one-on-ones with the, it's interesting when you go to the background of this story.

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It almost seems like Karma of the actor, where, you know, there are lots of conflicting stories from Billy's own, um, telling of where he was health wise and place wise and all the rest of it.

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But, you know, where it might have appeared that he was faking his illness in the previous season, Lloyd is now finding that he really isn't doing as well.

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And, you know, Billy later on said that he'd he'd left because the show was becoming evil.

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That was actually the word he used, but then he also said that he'd had pleurisy.

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And, um, pneumonia, I was trying to say, and and also a nervous breakdown at this time.

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I don't really hear it in the performance, but still...

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I suppose the cases with a lot of actors who do have breakdowns or depression or what have you, but it's actually the acting, when they're acting, they're functioning well.

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Well, you know, it's after recording episode two, that his wife, Heather, relates conventions, that that was when he came home to Mayfield and told her that he was leaving the series.

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Right.

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So is he told during the smugglers?

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Like he told her that he was leaving the series, not because of ill health, but just because he said, as he said, the Sarah had become too dark.

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There are many different versions from them.

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That timing would make sense, though, because this was filmed at the end of the 3rd production book.

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Yeah, of course.

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And then 10th Planet was the 1st story of the new production book.

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And he's a guest star.

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He's not the star of the show.

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I mean, he's credited as Dr. Hewitt, the head of it.

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But in the 10th planet, he's actually, he's just a guest performer as far as contracts are concerned.

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So they're just getting back for the 1st 4 episodes of series 4.

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So yeah, that does make sense.

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Maybe he was told during the studio stuff.

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Someone at home will know, someone will...

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Well, I mean, if we look at adventure in time and space, that certainly seems to be the case.

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It's funny you mentioned that because this was about the time when, was it not that Lloyd had commissioned Whitaker to write the destiny of Doctor Who, which was about how to change over the role.

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Horror.

200
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I probably got even less to say, actually.

201
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Derek Ware.

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Derek Ware as a Spaniard.

203
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We haven't mentioned him.

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I used to have it as a Spaniard.

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Terry Walsh, too, appearance, apparently.

206
00:15:51.000 --> 00:15:52.200
Oh, look.

207
00:15:52.200 --> 00:15:52.980
Yeah, it's huge.

208
00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:57.059
Yeah, it's right. possibly better than you remember or not.

209
00:15:57.120 --> 00:16:01.259
But let's have... only as an audio, not as a recon.

210
00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:05.940
Again, I just say, if there aren't a lot of images, then recons are really hard to sit through.

211
00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:06.899
Pictures are great.

212
00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:10.200
It makes it look like the location stuff would have been really speaking.

213
00:16:10.259 --> 00:16:12.960
I like using just like having it slightly in my head.

214
00:16:13.019 --> 00:16:15.179
It's like reading out loud and listening to the audios.

215
00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:15.600
Okay.

216
00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:16.919
All right.

217
00:16:16.980 --> 00:16:22.200
On that note, moving on to the Infant era, the final Willie Partner story.

218
00:16:22.259 --> 00:16:24.120
Spoiler alert, the 10th planet.

219
00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:39.240
Right, Richard, this was yours, though.

220
00:16:39.299 --> 00:16:46.500
It is, this is the, what Kenneth Williams have said, mid 70s radio. deviation of the universe.

221
00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:48.240
This is one of the inversion.

222
00:16:48.299 --> 00:16:57.960
Everything's topsy-turvy, misrule, the January Callens have been brought home and the universe has never be the same again.

223
00:16:58.440 --> 00:17:11.099
Other critics have said, you know, um, Oh, Santa, of course, we always go to our go-to's, Mr. Sandifer, and Mr. Lawrence Miles and Mr. Tatwood, to both say, everyone's got this wrong.

224
00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:15.539
This isn't like a res- you know, a regeneration story.

225
00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:19.319
And this isn't a cyberman story because people didn't know what that was.

226
00:17:19.380 --> 00:17:22.859
And the cybermen are never going to be the same in any way ever again.

227
00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:24.420
Just to jump in.

228
00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:26.400
I reckon this is the best side of the man's story.

229
00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:28.440
Because of what it suggests.

230
00:17:28.500 --> 00:17:32.220
Not necessarily for what you're seeing on screen, but for the ideas.

231
00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:34.440
Although, can I say, the scariest moment.

232
00:17:34.500 --> 00:17:54.480
I'm watching this with a friend who's now in his 50s and watched the 1st episode with that gorgeous moment of what looks like a human hand in a sleeve on the body, you pan up, that's a surgical gimp mask with, get this, an actor in blackface behind it, with white staring eyes and a helmet, utterly expressionist.

233
00:17:54.539 --> 00:17:57.720
It's still one of the most frozen horror moments the series has ever done.

234
00:17:57.779 --> 00:17:59.160
It's truly scary even now.

235
00:17:59.220 --> 00:18:00.660
And what are these things?

236
00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:01.500
What are these things?

237
00:18:01.859 --> 00:18:14.640
Yeah, I, the sidemen just look fantastic and and it really is, they will just become robots by the time, the next time they appear and and they'll be being groomed.

238
00:18:14.700 --> 00:18:20.160
It's the 2nd monster ever to reappear, the 2nd monster to maker, another appearance.

239
00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:24.779
As poor ward, with those poor food, they never worked again.

240
00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:36.000
And so they're being groomed, obviously, to replace the Daleks, which they will do, essentially, during the, during seasons 5 and 6, there are, there are no Daleks.

241
00:18:36.059 --> 00:18:43.799
I think at this point, the BBC were very much aware that Terry Nation was trying to launch his series in America and they knew if that happened, they wouldn't be able to use the Daleks.

242
00:18:43.859 --> 00:18:53.039
Yeah, so they so they turn the they turn the side men into sort of fairly generic robots and there are elements of them in the moon base when they come back.

243
00:18:53.099 --> 00:18:55.259
There are elements of this kind of side man there.

244
00:18:55.259 --> 00:18:57.420
But this kind of side man's never seen again.

245
00:18:57.480 --> 00:19:01.259
And for those of you who haven't seen it, I mean, it's remarkable.

246
00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:05.940
They have human hands, they don't have any gloves on, their faces are just sort of cloth.

247
00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:14.700
And as Richard said, you can see the actor's eyes, but there's black makeup around the eyes, the mouth, they just...

248
00:19:14.700 --> 00:19:20.039
And the gorma, silent mouths, without, they don't move, but speech comes out.

249
00:19:20.099 --> 00:19:23.579
Peter Davidson, when he was here in 83 just to age me.

250
00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:27.180
Did a little convention here at Sydney Uni and he said to us back then.

251
00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:28.440
Were you with that one, Nathan?

252
00:19:28.500 --> 00:19:29.579
You weren't.

253
00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:30.539
No, Brendan.

254
00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:38.880
And he said this most scary moment for me growing up was that 1st episode and the voices and I still have memory of Peter Davidson doing the voice.

255
00:19:38.940 --> 00:19:41.640
That singsong like this, up, Banda.

256
00:19:41.700 --> 00:19:47.039
And he liked that, that was, he said, that's what computer synthes voices were like in the 60s more, all right.

257
00:19:47.099 --> 00:19:47.519
Oh, really?

258
00:19:47.579 --> 00:19:47.940
Did they?

259
00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:50.940
Yeah, he said, that's what we thought computer voices would sound like.

260
00:19:50.940 --> 00:19:57.420
And the synthesised thing of the robotic, not having pitch in your, but not having any meaning for the words.

261
00:19:57.480 --> 00:19:59.640
Really, really unsettling.

262
00:19:59.700 --> 00:20:01.619
And my go to just to jump in.

263
00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:04.920
If you want to know how good these cybermen would be in the new series.

264
00:20:04.980 --> 00:20:09.299
Have a listen to Nicholas Briggs' voices on Mark Platt's spare finish.

265
00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:10.619
Thank you, spare parts.

266
00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:12.240
They're really scary.

267
00:20:12.299 --> 00:20:20.519
Apparently, I mean, the story goes that Peter Davidson and Sarah Sutton just roared with laughter when they 1st heard Mick Briggs do the voice.

268
00:20:20.579 --> 00:20:22.200
Okay, Simon, yeah.

269
00:20:22.259 --> 00:20:22.799
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

270
00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:23.579
Apparently.

271
00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:24.359
That's wonderful.

272
00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:27.900
Um...

273
00:20:27.900 --> 00:20:28.859
That's it.

274
00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:32.099
Totally devoid of meaning.

275
00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:35.099
No, you have to do the rest of this.

276
00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:38.819
No, I...

277
00:20:38.819 --> 00:20:39.480
Lucy.

278
00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:41.940
But never far away, are they?

279
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:43.680
That's the little yellow character.

280
00:20:43.740 --> 00:20:47.220
Um, the Busby little yellow character in, not vision on.

281
00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:49.980
What's the, what's the, anyway, that's the puppet voice book.

282
00:20:50.039 --> 00:20:51.660
Look it up and put it off.

283
00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:52.559
The rest of the thing.

284
00:20:52.619 --> 00:20:56.640
But there was a character on 70s British TV that actually had that voice.

285
00:20:56.700 --> 00:20:57.900
Well, it's funny.

286
00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:11.519
It's funny Peter Davidson saying that's what we imagine computers would sound like because the other very famous verbal computer from that time was the Star Trek computer, which of course we now think of the Star Trek computer as Major Barrett's next generation.

287
00:21:11.579 --> 00:21:14.400
Very gentle kind of voice like this.

288
00:21:14.460 --> 00:21:25.319
But in the 60s, it was major doing a Dalek cyber animals and it was very harsh and very high pitched like the cyber.

289
00:21:25.380 --> 00:21:30.539
But the Simon have this sort of strange thing where they don't have normal sort of intonation contours in their speech.

290
00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:32.640
And so it just sort of randomly goes up and down.

291
00:21:32.700 --> 00:21:35.220
And they also are sort of terribly polite.

292
00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:36.240
Do you know what I mean?

293
00:21:36.299 --> 00:21:38.400
And they're much more eloquent.

294
00:21:38.460 --> 00:21:42.720
I mean, by the time of the invasion, I don't think the sidemen even get a line in the invasion.

295
00:21:42.779 --> 00:21:44.460
I can't remember them saying anything at all.

296
00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:46.140
But these ones are quite chatty.

297
00:21:46.200 --> 00:21:47.339
Look what they offer.

298
00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:50.700
Yes, well, you see, that is the most terrifying thing.

299
00:21:50.759 --> 00:21:54.299
It's looking even more pertinent now with the whole global warming talk and what's happening.

300
00:21:54.359 --> 00:21:58.440
They offer peace, security, and a passionless life without pain.

301
00:21:58.500 --> 00:22:00.480
In fact, it's terrific.

302
00:22:00.539 --> 00:22:01.319
There's that scene.

303
00:22:01.380 --> 00:22:07.319
It must be an episode 2 where because the sidemen are only in episodes 2 and 4 as well.

304
00:22:07.380 --> 00:22:08.940
They appear at the end of episode one.

305
00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:11.279
That's the cliffhanger. you know, what the hell are they?

306
00:22:11.339 --> 00:22:15.900
Then they're in episode 2 and they're dispatched at the end of episode two.

307
00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:22.619
Then episode 3 is virtually free of sidemen and episode 4 has has them back, a new set Invade.

308
00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:31.980
And in episode two, they're explaining that what they're going to do is save the human beings because Mondas is going to sample all of us energy and they're all going to die.

309
00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:34.200
And so they're actually all trying to talk.

310
00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:36.420
And the sidemen are going, you know, what's your age?

311
00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:43.500
You know, what's your name, all of that sort of thing, like they're collecting information to prepare them for their sign, but...

312
00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:46.619
They book...

313
00:22:46.740 --> 00:22:49.559
No, your real name, because otherwise we can't say it so much.

314
00:22:49.619 --> 00:22:58.740
But they, like, they're quite calmly talking in this fabulously dispassionate way about converting all the people on the bass.

315
00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:07.500
And it is something that you lose, like, you know, by the 70s, I mean, there's only one side man's story in the 70s, Revenge of the Sidemen.

316
00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:10.440
There's no mention of them turning people into Cybermen.

317
00:23:10.500 --> 00:23:11.400
No, a need thing.

318
00:23:11.460 --> 00:23:14.700
The doctor just refers to them, being built of parts.

319
00:23:14.759 --> 00:23:15.960
You've got enough part...

320
00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:20.819
You've got parts in your spaceship to build more side, but he doesn't refer to them converting humans.

321
00:23:20.940 --> 00:23:22.980
That comes back in force in the 80s.

322
00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:24.960
But yeah, it's kind of forgotten after this.

323
00:23:25.019 --> 00:23:31.319
Well, even Earthshock do people to, you know, they're just sort of stupid robots in Earthshock with star data voices.

324
00:23:31.380 --> 00:23:34.319
I think they do talk about turning Ridgeway into a cyberman.

325
00:23:34.440 --> 00:23:34.980
They do.

326
00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:35.640
Oh okay.

327
00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:37.319
Terrible.

328
00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:45.960
But but here, you know, they're really, I think they're really quite terrifying and and their origin is sort of mythic and really interesting.

329
00:23:46.019 --> 00:24:01.740
Like they come from our twin planet that sort of wandered off into the universe and and now it's come back. you know, and that's something that Russell captures in rise of the sidemen by making them be from a parallel universe rather than just a sort of twin planet to earth.

330
00:24:01.799 --> 00:24:04.740
So they're us, you know, they're us in this.

331
00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:06.119
And they are in this story as well.

332
00:24:06.180 --> 00:24:06.960
They are humans.

333
00:24:07.019 --> 00:24:09.119
There are lost primal people.

334
00:24:09.299 --> 00:24:13.740
I love sand of his blog on this, and again, that's my go-to for this one.

335
00:24:13.859 --> 00:24:15.779
I won't go into it too much It's crazy.

336
00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:16.559
But he's right.

337
00:24:16.619 --> 00:24:38.579
It's really interesting British fantasy and what we now call fandom and riding was very much on this post-Aleistair Crowley, darker, neo-pagan, right await tarot, stuff Anika Wills is in too as well that she references the whole, you know, this is the neosama of the burgeoning open mind thing.

338
00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:39.599
You had the beginning.

339
00:24:39.660 --> 00:24:44.160
Well, you know, there was the William Morris Revival and the Arts and Crafts thing in the 60s.

340
00:24:44.220 --> 00:24:52.619
But along with that, from the time that was, was a whole lot of writing on, I guess, different kinds of enlightenment and approaches to enlightenment.

341
00:24:52.680 --> 00:25:05.339
There's one, and Sandova mentions Kenneth Clark, who is a British writer, um, he died in 2011 and the inheritor of the Alistair Crowley Golden Dawn stuff, then.

342
00:25:05.400 --> 00:25:10.619
The necromancer that the Clive Barker stories use the same reference material.

343
00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:14.880
The idea basically is clipothic is the term.

344
00:25:14.940 --> 00:25:16.619
Yes, no, I've never even attempted to pronounce.

345
00:25:16.799 --> 00:25:18.000
I'm sure I'm wrong.

346
00:25:18.059 --> 00:25:19.740
Enlightenment through darkness.

347
00:25:19.799 --> 00:25:20.700
We should explain.

348
00:25:20.759 --> 00:25:25.920
There's a lovely line where the Sidemen said, we have gone, we have travelled. the universe and come back.

349
00:25:26.039 --> 00:25:29.640
They have passed through the darkest.

350
00:25:29.700 --> 00:25:31.619
It's kind of the Hades.

351
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:35.400
It's really a bit of seeing the underworld, isn't it?

352
00:25:35.460 --> 00:25:36.779
It's what's the character.

353
00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:38.759
Everyone goes to the underworld.

354
00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:39.420
Yeah.

355
00:25:39.480 --> 00:25:40.559
Yeah, yeah, Catarina.

356
00:25:40.859 --> 00:25:41.400
Yeah, yeah.

357
00:25:41.460 --> 00:25:42.720
The promised gland.

358
00:25:42.779 --> 00:25:44.700
Oh, H.P.

359
00:25:44.700 --> 00:25:47.099
Lovecraft, Edgar Allen, a lot of Lovecraft in this.

360
00:25:47.099 --> 00:25:50.339
Enlightenment is achievable through the passage of nightmares.

361
00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:52.200
Very Clyde Barker.

362
00:25:52.259 --> 00:25:53.700
Now, when you...

363
00:25:53.700 --> 00:25:57.900
I don't think that's actually a big leap because once you read, saying it for saying.

364
00:25:57.960 --> 00:25:58.740
And you're looking at this.

365
00:25:58.799 --> 00:25:59.640
Yeah, that's what it is.

366
00:25:59.700 --> 00:26:04.920
They're us having gone through some horrible things and they actually do offer a version of enlightenment.

367
00:26:04.980 --> 00:26:09.839
But when they say when Polly says, but that's awful letting death and things happen, that's not nice.

368
00:26:09.900 --> 00:26:16.740
She's the voice of, you know, of sensibility and good sense and kindness as we see it.

369
00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:20.099
And then he looks at her and just passionately and says, you don't allow people to die.

370
00:26:20.099 --> 00:26:24.660
In suffering and all around the world every single day.

371
00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:26.039
You do nothing about it.

372
00:26:26.099 --> 00:26:27.180
Yeah you don't care about them.

373
00:26:27.240 --> 00:26:29.819
She loses that argument.

374
00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:30.839
Yeah, completely does.

375
00:26:30.900 --> 00:26:41.460
It's the biggest poke to how, you know, it's the maybe it's the 1st gruly post-colonial moment in the show. when it says, your society doesn't function.

376
00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:45.359
And that's why the cybermen are so successful in this because they're not evil.

377
00:26:45.420 --> 00:26:47.640
No, they are.

378
00:26:47.700 --> 00:26:48.779
They're alternative.

379
00:26:48.839 --> 00:26:51.539
They are ultimate pragmatists.

380
00:26:52.019 --> 00:26:57.420
Whereas, you know, later on, the sidemen would just become evil, you know, the wheel in space.

381
00:26:57.480 --> 00:27:03.720
They're attacking the space station with asteroids so they can get Earth's mineral wealth.

382
00:27:03.779 --> 00:27:08.220
Well, just land somewhere and get Earth's mineral wealth, which is what the cybermen now would do.

383
00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:09.960
They just land and say, we are taking this goal.

384
00:27:10.019 --> 00:27:10.559
Thank you.

385
00:27:10.619 --> 00:27:12.180
No one says delete in this.

386
00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:13.799
They're not going to kill people.

387
00:27:13.859 --> 00:27:15.119
They're going to better them.

388
00:27:15.180 --> 00:27:20.579
Yeah, they're the most horrible coal to us way, possibly imagine.

389
00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:23.579
It really only achieves this again with Earth Shock, doesn't it?

390
00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:31.680
Until the new series when there's that nice line with where Peter says, you know, a lovely meal, fragrant posies and hitting your bum wet on the grass.

391
00:27:31.740 --> 00:27:33.420
That's a well prepared meal.

392
00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:36.119
Yes, well prepared, bum wetting on the grass, that kind of thing.

393
00:27:36.180 --> 00:27:47.339
But when we do get those speeches, and it is a sort of an obligatory thing in a side man story where you talk about what they've given up by giving up their emotions, there are some corners of the universe.

394
00:27:47.460 --> 00:27:50.759
The cybermen lose that argument. you know what I mean?

395
00:27:50.819 --> 00:27:54.660
In a sense, where here they win. you know, they're right.

396
00:27:54.779 --> 00:27:57.779
And so I think they're sort of terrifying for that.

397
00:27:57.839 --> 00:28:04.140
And look, I mean, they degenerate into villains by the time of episode for, you know, they're sort of fairly standard.

398
00:28:04.259 --> 00:28:10.140
Yeah, they're taking the doctor and Polly as prisoners because it's the doctor and Polly.

399
00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:10.680
Yeah.

400
00:28:10.740 --> 00:28:14.940
But I think, I mean, I think there's a stack going on even apart from the cybermen.

401
00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:26.640
So I read sort of running through corridors account of this and they talk about the fact that in episodes 2 and Thor, you've got the emotionless cybermen in charge of the bass.

402
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:31.920
And one thing we haven't mentioned is this is really the 1st base under siege story.

403
00:28:31.980 --> 00:28:40.440
And that's a genre that's going to become exclusively the mode, the Doctor Who operates in pretty much for the next few years.

404
00:28:40.500 --> 00:28:49.380
But then in episode three, the peril is the over-emotional um, General Cutler who's frightened uh, for his son.

405
00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:52.619
And, you know, he's the one who holds out the Z bomb.

406
00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:54.359
He's the one who threatens life on earth.

407
00:28:54.420 --> 00:28:56.579
He's the one who is going to kill the cyberman.

408
00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:09.240
And so we do get to see in a sense that the cybermen have a point about human emotions, that they're, you know, that they're dangerous and destructive and actually a real problem.

409
00:29:09.299 --> 00:29:12.539
And it's just demonstrated to you all throughout episode three.

410
00:29:12.599 --> 00:29:14.339
And I think that's sort of terrifically good.

411
00:29:14.759 --> 00:29:34.140
Another thing that's really great about this basis, and so soon after the questionable racial politics of season three, we have a multicultural cast in charge of the base, a multicultural cast in the UN office.

412
00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:36.900
Now, we still have a problem in terms of sexual equality.

413
00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:38.940
Like there are no women.

414
00:29:38.940 --> 00:29:40.680
There are no women on the military base.

415
00:29:40.740 --> 00:29:42.539
There are women in Wigner's office.

416
00:29:42.599 --> 00:29:47.160
You know, they're still in a subservient position, but they're in an important position at the UN.

417
00:29:47.220 --> 00:29:51.599
There is definitely worth noting that within a couple of months.

418
00:29:52.319 --> 00:30:03.660
It seems like in his lawyers come in and maybe seen some of the really quite horrible racial stuff that was in that season and went, no, I'm going to do better.

419
00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:09.180
We had Jamaica in the smugglers, who's just another pirate. you know what I mean?

420
00:30:09.240 --> 00:30:15.420
Yeah, exactly. you know, like... you know, his race is mentioned as it would have been at that time.

421
00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:20.880
But, yeah, he's, unlike, say, the monoids, he's not regarded as stupid because he's black.

422
00:30:20.940 --> 00:30:21.180
No.

423
00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:29.339
And then you get this, you get the Australian and the American astronaut, you know, in Zeus 4, Zeus 4.

424
00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:33.240
And what is it about Australian astronauts in British productions being a bit crap.

425
00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:36.359
I mean, look at Alan Carter in space 1990.

426
00:30:36.359 --> 00:30:37.500
He's great.

427
00:30:37.559 --> 00:30:38.519
Shut up.

428
00:30:38.579 --> 00:30:40.559
He had 2 options in that 1st episode.

429
00:30:40.619 --> 00:30:42.000
Oh, the moon's flying away.

430
00:30:42.059 --> 00:30:46.140
Do I fly back to Earth or do I go to the moon with my friends and possibly get killed?

431
00:30:46.200 --> 00:30:48.180
I'll go to the moon, idiot.

432
00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:49.859
He got a year's workout of it.

433
00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:51.480
And you're in a bit.

434
00:30:51.539 --> 00:30:52.079
Yeah, yeah.

435
00:30:52.140 --> 00:30:53.339
Anyway.

436
00:30:53.400 --> 00:30:54.599
Sorry, tangent.

437
00:30:54.660 --> 00:31:02.700
And I think the other thing too that's overlooked is that Polly actually has a pretty significant role in this.

438
00:31:02.759 --> 00:31:07.500
And you know, we do talk about the sort of lamentable sexual politics of the 60s.

439
00:31:07.619 --> 00:31:11.700
But Polly is the one who kind of in episode three.

440
00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:13.980
She's really the one who starts the plan.

441
00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:16.319
You know, they're going to disobey Cutler.

442
00:31:16.380 --> 00:31:18.180
Cutler's going to blow up the Z bomb.

443
00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:22.259
Yeah, you know, we've gone from the A bomb to the H bomb, but we're now in the near future.

444
00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:23.339
It's 1986.

445
00:31:24.359 --> 00:31:26.039
Solar system level category.

446
00:31:26.099 --> 00:31:31.259
We've gone through all of the letters of the alphabet as far as bombs are concerned, and we're up to the Z bomb.

447
00:31:31.319 --> 00:31:37.859
And she's the one who really initiates the plan to kind of subvert Cutler's orders there.

448
00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:39.960
But it does kind of come back to that thing.

449
00:31:40.019 --> 00:31:46.140
I was talking about with the Peter Cushing films, which is it seems like you can only have one strong woman per script.

450
00:31:46.140 --> 00:31:48.660
Or one woman, in fact, in this case.

451
00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:54.180
Well, you know, as I say, there are, yeah, one sort of major character woman per script.

452
00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:55.200
More antecedents.

453
00:31:55.259 --> 00:31:58.559
This is again closest to Kubrick than any other film I can think of.

454
00:31:58.619 --> 00:32:02.400
This is strange, love, because Cutler is Jack D. Ripper, isn't he?

455
00:32:02.460 --> 00:32:04.980
Even with the overacting in the ham acting and that whole...

456
00:32:04.980 --> 00:32:07.740
That whole South Pacific.

457
00:32:07.799 --> 00:32:09.000
You know?

458
00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:12.779
Oh, boy, Golly Gee, and...

459
00:32:12.779 --> 00:32:14.279
That's his relaxing.

460
00:32:14.339 --> 00:32:15.660
There ain't nothing like a dame.

461
00:32:15.779 --> 00:32:17.759
He's actually...

462
00:32:17.819 --> 00:32:19.259
Yeah, because he shows up in Blake 7.

463
00:32:19.259 --> 00:32:20.819
He does too, doesn't he?

464
00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:23.279
And I thought again, he was just reprising the role.

465
00:32:23.339 --> 00:32:26.039
He's Bran Foster with extra hair.

466
00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:28.079
And extra rough.

467
00:32:28.140 --> 00:32:29.220
It's not actually that bad.

468
00:32:29.279 --> 00:32:32.460
He has some good moments, especially with, well, there's very few with Billy, aren't there?

469
00:32:32.519 --> 00:32:33.480
But there's little...

470
00:32:33.539 --> 00:32:37.200
Well, you see, I mean, we should talk about, we should talk about what happens to Hartnell.

471
00:32:37.259 --> 00:32:48.480
I've just read the um, the novelisation, uh, which is called Doctor Who in the 10th Planet, bizarrely enough, and it is by Jerry Davis, who wrote the script.

472
00:32:48.539 --> 00:32:55.559
And in it, Hartnell does actually disappear in episode three, but not for all of it.

473
00:32:55.619 --> 00:33:00.240
So the story is that Hartnell is too sick to appear in episode three.

474
00:33:00.299 --> 00:33:02.339
We don't have episode four.

475
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:09.660
So our last, the last time we get to see William Hartnell as the doctor until...

476
00:33:09.720 --> 00:33:15.539
Well, yeah, yeah, and until the 3 doctors, sadly, is episode two.

477
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:17.460
And he's on the base.

478
00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:18.839
It's not really his thing.

479
00:33:18.900 --> 00:33:21.359
This does seem like he's a bit out of place here.

480
00:33:21.420 --> 00:33:23.460
There's lots of Americans and shouting and stuff.

481
00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:27.180
But he still gives a really great form, I think.

482
00:33:27.240 --> 00:33:29.819
He keeps being called pops and stuff.

483
00:33:29.880 --> 00:33:38.700
But again, if you sort of look at the direction of it, a lot of time he sat down, like they found him in a nice comfy chair as soon as he walks in, but he commands the set from that chair.

484
00:33:38.759 --> 00:33:49.140
Like, he's a little bit modern Doctor Who in that he sees he kind of listens to what's coming up and writes down what they're going to see before they see it because he knows.

485
00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:50.819
It's very mass, isn't it?

486
00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:51.539
Isn't it?

487
00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:53.039
Well, because that's the other thing too.

488
00:33:53.099 --> 00:33:55.259
It's the 1st time in the near future.

489
00:33:55.319 --> 00:33:59.220
You know, like it's set 30 years after the broadcast.

490
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:01.140
Well, 2020.

491
00:34:01.259 --> 00:34:03.359
I can't do any maths at all. can I?

492
00:34:03.420 --> 00:34:04.380
It's said 20 years.

493
00:34:04.440 --> 00:34:10.380
So, you know, people watching it in 1966 could expect to be alive in 1986.

494
00:34:10.739 --> 00:34:13.860
The novelisation sets it in 2000.

495
00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:16.619
Just what I thought the book was 86.

496
00:34:16.860 --> 00:34:18.360
No, the book says 2000.

497
00:34:18.539 --> 00:34:23.159
And the novelisation of Power of the Daleks, which picks up, sets it in 1996.

498
00:34:23.340 --> 00:34:25.860
You thought unit dating was bad dealers.

499
00:34:25.980 --> 00:34:30.599
So the doctor clearly knows the future history of Earth.

500
00:34:30.659 --> 00:34:34.079
And so he writes down that you're about to see a mysterious planet.

501
00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:44.219
And he seems to know, too, that he just says, I mean, they don't have to do anything to resolve the situation except wait and prevent Cutler from Z bombing everyone.

502
00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:49.320
This is the 1st time we've had a future moment that's an intractable point, fixed point in time.

503
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:50.579
We've had the Aztecs.

504
00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:52.199
We've had that you cannot interfere with history.

505
00:34:52.260 --> 00:34:53.639
Finally, we've got a point.

506
00:34:53.699 --> 00:34:58.920
Yeah, history occurs all over the You can't interfere in 1986 because it's going to will have happened.

507
00:34:58.980 --> 00:34:59.880
Yes.

508
00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:04.320
So with grammatic consequences.

509
00:35:04.679 --> 00:35:07.739
Serious grammatical consequences.

510
00:35:07.800 --> 00:35:32.099
So, um, and so he disappears for episode three, and there's clearly lines that, you know, he, he should have in episode 3 being able to say, all we need to do is wait, uh, and the cybern will overload themselves and mombas will explode, and as usual, when uh, mones explodes, all of the sidemen will be dead, just that tiresome, just because that helps us get out of the plot quicker.

511
00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:38.579
Stephen Moffatt uses it in deep breath, doesn't he, where the half-faced man gets killed and all the other clockwork droids deactivate themselves?

512
00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:41.760
conveniently so we don't have to go around and mop them up at the end.

513
00:35:41.940 --> 00:35:46.679
And he would have delivered that, but he's taking the...

514
00:35:46.739 --> 00:35:49.800
I just assumed he was had a tantrum and didn't want to come in.

515
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:58.559
According to the various stories I've heard, including Anika Wills and production people and whatnot.

516
00:35:58.619 --> 00:36:06.960
He was actually taken ill shortly after the 2nd episode filmed, or possibly during the filming of the 2nd episode, and his doctor said he cannot come in.

517
00:36:07.019 --> 00:36:11.099
They kind of looked at the script where he wasn't really involved that much anyway.

518
00:36:11.159 --> 00:36:13.679
Because he's just saying, no, you just got to sit around and wait.

519
00:36:13.739 --> 00:36:17.460
So they just got Ben at one point to say, the doctor said, da, da, da.

520
00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:22.019
And then it's just some guy in a wig with his back to the camera plays the doctor for that episode.

521
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:23.460
Is it open Warwick again?

522
00:36:23.579 --> 00:36:24.119
I wish it was.

523
00:36:24.179 --> 00:36:27.000
I do hope it is because Edmund Warwick deserves a send off as well.

524
00:36:27.059 --> 00:36:27.780
He does.

525
00:36:28.679 --> 00:36:32.579
And so and so we get this sort of resolution and stuff.

526
00:36:32.699 --> 00:36:44.219
I mean, the novelisation kind of opens with the doctor being weird and distracted and a little bit kind of tired and that kind of thing, but there actually isn't really that much lead up to it at all.

527
00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:51.900
And it's almost as if the absence from episode 3 is a kind of inadvertently foreshadows what's going to happen.

528
00:36:51.960 --> 00:36:58.199
But in fact, you know, it seems to happen for no reason and with very little fanfare.

529
00:36:58.260 --> 00:37:22.619
And I think that this is going to be a theme of our discussion, you know, of the rest of this story, but also a power for Daleks, which is how little fanfare, how little preparation, how little apology there is for this giant, incredible move that they're about to take, which is to recast the leading man, which is just utterly weird and utterly unprecedented, I think.

530
00:37:22.860 --> 00:37:26.820
And they don't think they need to explain it.

531
00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:28.739
They don't think they need to lead up to it.

532
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:31.679
They make it mysterious and off putting.

533
00:37:31.739 --> 00:37:44.579
And if you compare it to the 1st regeneration that we see in the new series, where you've got Christopher Eccleston spending 2 or 3 minutes carefully explaining it to Billy Piper so that the audience at home aren't alienated from it.

534
00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:46.860
We get nothing like that at all here.

535
00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:53.340
See, I do have a theory on that, which is, you know, they've been looking for a way to replace Billy for about 6 months.

536
00:37:53.400 --> 00:38:01.019
And they've hit on this way, but nothing like this has ever been done on television before.

537
00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:06.599
I think they didn't highlight it because they thought the more that we highlight it, the more obvious it will be.

538
00:38:06.659 --> 00:38:15.300
If we make it as smooth as it possibly can be, you know, we can't just put another guy in his wig because they already discounted that.

539
00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:24.179
So we need to have a new person in there, but let's make it so that the audience have to figure it out at the same time as the characters rather than having it fed to them.

540
00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:25.440
Intelligent way of doing.

541
00:38:25.500 --> 00:38:28.019
They chillax while keeping warm.

542
00:38:28.260 --> 00:38:29.699
Thank you.

543
00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:30.119
It's good.

544
00:38:30.179 --> 00:38:30.599
Keep warm.

545
00:38:31.019 --> 00:38:39.420
But yeah, I think the whole thing of not drawing attention to it is so is so that they don't have to explain it.

546
00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:43.739
And because they're kind of like, this is going to be jarring enough as it is.

547
00:38:43.800 --> 00:38:45.840
Let's make it a smoother toss.

548
00:38:45.900 --> 00:38:58.320
Well, I mean, they don't have an explanation, and the idea that this is the 1st regeneration is completely wrong, because, I mean, the 2nd time when he turns into pert, it's the time laws, changes, appear, and it's at no point do we get the word regeneration at the time.

549
00:38:58.559 --> 00:39:03.480
And so the regeneration's only really invented in the 1970s for Planet of the Spiders.

550
00:39:03.539 --> 00:39:04.619
So that's not what's happening.

551
00:39:04.679 --> 00:39:06.300
Buddhist term that.

552
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:08.880
Yeah, yeah, that's why the term regeneration gets used.

553
00:39:08.940 --> 00:39:14.519
But, um, I mean, you know, like and interpreting this in the light of future events, that's fine.

554
00:39:14.579 --> 00:39:15.420
It's a regeneration.

555
00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:20.340
You don't have to go all Doctor Who magazine and say, it's a rejuvenation and it's really just the same person.

556
00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:24.059
You know, that's kind of crazy in the light of what's happened since.

557
00:39:24.119 --> 00:39:28.139
But just the fact that they don't explain it, they don't lead up to it.

558
00:39:28.199 --> 00:39:34.139
And as we're going to see, they do nothing to kind of smooth the transition in the next story, I think is really remarkable.

559
00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:41.159
Does anyone want to say a few words about the fact that we're now leaving Hartnor behind?

560
00:39:41.280 --> 00:39:42.360
How do we feel?

561
00:39:42.420 --> 00:39:45.719
I have far too much to say, I know, it's all just...

562
00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:46.920
Thank you, Billy.

563
00:39:46.980 --> 00:39:48.539
He is wonderful.

564
00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:53.880
It is that thing too, where when we were kids, he was the grumpy one.

565
00:39:53.940 --> 00:39:54.719
Do you know what I mean?

566
00:39:54.780 --> 00:39:57.420
We hadn't seen him, he was irascible and all that sort of thing.

567
00:39:57.480 --> 00:39:59.219
But we knew him through the Target books.

568
00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:01.619
I never read the ones with Harmony.

569
00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:02.460
Oh, didn't she?

570
00:40:02.460 --> 00:40:03.659
See, they were my favourites.

571
00:40:03.719 --> 00:40:07.440
Maybe that is why I just quietly say he's still my favourite doctor.

572
00:40:07.500 --> 00:40:12.239
And he's the only person to play the doctor rather than a doctor.

573
00:40:12.300 --> 00:40:14.340
And he's just wonderful.

574
00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:15.719
He's so lovely.

575
00:40:15.780 --> 00:40:17.519
He's so terribly sweet.

576
00:40:17.639 --> 00:40:27.239
A French mine posted on Facebook, you know, he'd just seen the 5 doctors and was going, was Richard Herndel was the 1st doctor really liked that?

577
00:40:27.300 --> 00:40:28.260
He just seems horrible.

578
00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:31.199
And he said, no, he's awfully sweet.

579
00:40:31.260 --> 00:40:37.019
He's cuddly and lovely and funny and, you know, terribly human and things.

580
00:40:37.079 --> 00:40:38.760
I think he's terrific.

581
00:40:38.820 --> 00:40:45.480
You know, it's been a great, you know, like a great 3 years for all the bitching that we've done about it.

582
00:40:45.539 --> 00:40:47.340
And he's just a great doctor.

583
00:40:47.460 --> 00:41:01.619
He's constantly surprising. in a role that is, by its very nature, self-limiting and, you know, or really auto program is just there in the way that Cushing didn't really make it stretch any further.

584
00:41:01.679 --> 00:41:03.119
Yeah, little moments that were terribly cool.

585
00:41:03.179 --> 00:41:04.440
Okay, you didn't have very long to do it.

586
00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:12.539
But in every scene, Billy will find something, a slight twist, a slightly new way of doing it, something to surprise the viewer and keep us, keep us in there with him.

587
00:41:12.539 --> 00:41:14.219
He has lots of reasons I love him.

588
00:41:14.280 --> 00:41:20.219
And what's, what's really amazing about him is he has this mystique around him.

589
00:41:20.699 --> 00:41:27.840
Even more so than Patrick Trouton, who was notoriously very private about how he played the role until later in his life when he was looking back on it.

590
00:41:27.960 --> 00:41:32.460
Hartnell didn't get that later opportunity to talk about Doctor Who.

591
00:41:32.519 --> 00:41:37.980
It's only recently that a TV interview has been unearthed after he finished the role.

592
00:41:38.039 --> 00:41:40.139
And we watched that before the podcast.

593
00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:51.480
And what's amazing about it is there's always been this debate in fandom about Hartnell, like, was he that forgetful or were the hms and the Rs and the hesitations, were they character?

594
00:41:51.539 --> 00:41:59.099
And you see this interview when, you know, his illness has really taken hold according to the time frame and he is focussed.

595
00:41:59.159 --> 00:42:00.000
He is lucid.

596
00:42:00.059 --> 00:42:11.639
He is not hesitating in what he is saying and he is completely different. from his character as the doctor and completely vulnerable.

597
00:42:11.699 --> 00:42:19.139
In a way, that interview answers that question, but it throws up so many other questions about him as well.

598
00:42:19.260 --> 00:42:25.079
And I think that's a really good place to leave him because he's the original and still the most mysterious.

599
00:42:25.139 --> 00:42:26.579
Yeah, who is?

600
00:42:26.639 --> 00:42:27.360
God bless him.

601
00:42:27.420 --> 00:42:30.000
Yeah, we love you, Ben. you.

602
00:42:34.139 --> 00:42:40.860
Out with the old and in with the new, it's time to welcome Patrick Troughton with Power of the Daleks.

603
00:42:40.920 --> 00:42:54.179
And this one was mine, and I've been saying for a few podcasts now, but I've been looking forward to this one because when Rod and I were making our way through and watching them, we really didn't think much of this one.

604
00:42:54.239 --> 00:43:01.679
But on my recent trip to the US, I hate watching videos on my iPhone, so I didn't take the recons on my phone.

605
00:43:01.739 --> 00:43:03.960
I took the John Peel novelisation.

606
00:43:04.019 --> 00:43:08.280
Which, um, it's it's very, Richard's making a face.

607
00:43:08.340 --> 00:43:09.960
It's very, it's very interesting.

608
00:43:10.019 --> 00:43:17.340
For a start, it was towards the end of, actually, it was after, really, the target novels.

609
00:43:17.400 --> 00:43:19.260
It was when Virgin had become fully established.

610
00:43:19.320 --> 00:43:26.159
So the novelisations of Power of the Daleks and Evil of the Daleks are almost double length compared to Target novels.

611
00:43:26.280 --> 00:43:37.800
So the 1st couple of chapters actually retells about the last 10 minutes of the 10th planet from a 2nd person point of view with Ben as the 2nd person.

612
00:43:37.860 --> 00:43:45.420
So it's not Ben saying I did this, I did that, but it is like a narrator following Ben and telling us what Ben's thinking and what have you.

613
00:43:45.480 --> 00:43:48.000
It's Ben looking for the doctor and Polly in the ship.

614
00:43:48.059 --> 00:43:55.260
Now, John Peel has long been regarded as a writer who does something called fan wank.

615
00:43:56.460 --> 00:44:25.019
Now, what that means is sort of just throwing in bits of continuity and really this book is no exception because after the strange old man and his 2 young friends disappear in the blue box, a team from unit turns up in the year 1996 to Snowcat base to mop it up, led by Lieutenant Benton, Professor Alison Williams. and their and Eunice.

616
00:44:25.139 --> 00:44:27.599
Unis cried, crotcheting, alert, robot dog friend.

617
00:44:27.659 --> 00:44:28.920
No, not quite.

618
00:44:28.980 --> 00:44:34.079
But he could have been there because they're accompanied by units official chronicler Sarah Jane Smith.

619
00:44:34.139 --> 00:44:35.099
Oh, please.

620
00:44:35.099 --> 00:44:42.059
Now, the thing is, it's a bit like Hitchhiker's a Guide to the Galaxy, because after that, the book settles down and actually starts telling you things you need to know.

621
00:44:42.179 --> 00:44:52.739
And the book has given me a new appreciation of the story because my problem with the story before watching the reconstruction is I didn't understand why the rebels were rebelling.

622
00:44:52.800 --> 00:45:06.000
But reading the book and listening to the audio again just by itself helped me realise the sort of subtext and cleverness of the title, which I know you're going to touch on later, Nathan.

623
00:45:06.119 --> 00:45:11.519
But something in particular that I loved about it is because you've got 2 companions.

624
00:45:12.179 --> 00:45:16.139
One accepts him as the doctor.

625
00:45:16.679 --> 00:45:25.079
Not straight away, but you know, within a couple of scenes because Polly just kind of goes, well, look, you know, he can't be anyone else.

626
00:45:25.139 --> 00:45:28.559
We saw the cloak go over the doctor's face.

627
00:45:28.619 --> 00:45:30.059
It came off his face.

628
00:45:30.119 --> 00:45:37.260
He's the doctor, whereas Ben... is like the viewer who doesn't immediately accept it.

629
00:45:37.320 --> 00:45:44.699
And we sort of have that again with the Peter Capaldi, um, regeneration and 1st episode where he has to convince Clara and thus the audience.

630
00:45:44.760 --> 00:45:49.679
I think it's better handled here because you have the 2 perspectives.

631
00:45:49.739 --> 00:45:51.480
Yeah, and they're presumably there.

632
00:45:51.599 --> 00:45:54.300
It's the same as the viewers at home.

633
00:45:54.360 --> 00:45:57.000
Like, for all we said about it, not being explained.

634
00:45:57.059 --> 00:45:58.380
It is aggressively not explained.

635
00:45:58.440 --> 00:46:01.739
You know, like the doctor refuses to answer their questions.

636
00:46:01.800 --> 00:46:03.900
He's annoying on the recorder.

637
00:46:03.960 --> 00:46:07.619
He talks about Bill Hartnell in the 3rd person.

638
00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:10.739
You know, the doctor was a great collector, you know, all this sort of thing.

639
00:46:10.800 --> 00:46:17.639
Like, he really is quite off putting and, you know, deliberately goes out of his way to kind of put you offside.

640
00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:23.579
Which makes him sinister because he's very, very friendly, but he's hiding something.

641
00:46:24.119 --> 00:46:27.360
And then hiding what's happened to everyone's grandad.

642
00:46:27.480 --> 00:46:34.019
And then, of course, the 1st thing he does, he steps out onto the planet Vulcan and he impersonates a dead man.

643
00:46:34.079 --> 00:46:37.079
He steps into his shoes and pretends to be that dead man.

644
00:46:37.139 --> 00:46:39.420
Yeah, which is so straight away.

645
00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:40.139
Do you know what I mean?

646
00:46:40.199 --> 00:46:41.280
He's unreliable.

647
00:46:41.340 --> 00:46:44.699
He's impersonating someone, someone who's died.

648
00:46:44.760 --> 00:46:52.019
And so they do deliberately try and put you off, I think. a little bit.

649
00:46:52.079 --> 00:46:54.840
I think the power of the Daleks is necessary.

650
00:46:54.900 --> 00:46:58.019
And I think the power of Daleks is something brilliant that Whittaker does.

651
00:46:58.079 --> 00:47:06.659
And what's happened with the Daleks under Terry Nation is that we've started with the Daleks versus humans in a science fiction setting.

652
00:47:07.920 --> 00:47:11.219
And they're sort of, they're not humans as such, but they're sort of human-ish.

653
00:47:11.280 --> 00:47:14.039
Yeah, and they're science fiction humans.

654
00:47:14.099 --> 00:47:14.760
You know, they're stupid.

655
00:47:14.820 --> 00:47:22.679
And then you've got the Daleks invading Earth, and then you've got the Daleks chasing the doctor through time and threatening to become the star of the program.

656
00:47:22.739 --> 00:47:25.860
And then you've got the Daleks are going to destroy the galaxy.

657
00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:26.579
Do you know what I mean?

658
00:47:26.639 --> 00:47:30.719
And each time, it's got bigger scale and higher concept and all that sort of thing.

659
00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:32.099
And what Whittaker does here.

660
00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:34.440
This he takes it right back to the beginning.

661
00:47:34.500 --> 00:47:35.639
So we're in a city.

662
00:47:35.699 --> 00:47:41.340
It's somewhere in the future, but we don't know when, you know, despite what John Peel might say.

663
00:47:41.460 --> 00:47:45.539
He probably gives, you know, their address and their geolocation and the gear.

664
00:47:45.599 --> 00:47:46.800
Surprisingly he didn't.

665
00:47:46.860 --> 00:47:49.800
Okay, so it's very deliberately kept vague.

666
00:47:49.860 --> 00:47:58.739
And we have humans versus Daleks, but this time they're not stupid science fiction humans with holes in their clothes or lots of makeup.

667
00:47:58.800 --> 00:48:00.179
They're real people.

668
00:48:00.179 --> 00:48:01.500
With David Whitaker.

669
00:48:01.559 --> 00:48:03.719
Yeah, with politics and all of that sort of thing.

670
00:48:03.780 --> 00:48:08.159
There's a whole the B story is even more interesting to me than the A story.

671
00:48:08.219 --> 00:48:11.400
The politics of the colony are really, really great.

672
00:48:11.519 --> 00:48:22.679
And the great thing about it is that the politics of the colony play out against this backdrop of the fact that we know that the Daleks are going to come to life and kill everyone.

673
00:48:22.739 --> 00:48:25.139
And we're waiting for it.

674
00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:26.039
And he will do it again.

675
00:48:26.099 --> 00:48:33.480
And I think he does it vastly less successfully in evil of the Daleks, which I think wears out its welcome in a way before you get...

676
00:48:33.480 --> 00:48:35.159
You might actually be going to agree.

677
00:48:35.219 --> 00:48:37.380
Please keep listening, dear listen.

678
00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:57.300
But in power of the Daleks, benefits enormously, and particularly because you get the Daleks being friendly, and you can see why Gaitas went back to this for victory of the Daleks, where you have Daleks carrying trays and bringing people liquid and like expressing concern that the governor hasn't finished his liquid and stuff.

679
00:48:57.300 --> 00:49:02.519
It doesn't quite reach the superb heights of the Dalek going, you know, care for some tea.

680
00:49:02.579 --> 00:49:05.039
Which I just think is truly splendid.

681
00:49:05.099 --> 00:49:07.739
And that's actually how Rod offers to make me feel.

682
00:49:07.800 --> 00:49:09.300
He loves that episode.

683
00:49:09.420 --> 00:49:17.039
So, so, you know, the fact that you've got these Daleks that you know, and, you know, you see the Daleks looking at the doctor.

684
00:49:17.099 --> 00:49:26.099
This is the 1st time you get Dalek eye view through a toilet roll, you know, and you see them looking at the doctor and you see that they recognise the doctor.

685
00:49:26.219 --> 00:49:36.719
And so they're sinister and malevolent all the way through and you know that this rebellion is really not going to be permitted to reach its natural conclusion.

686
00:49:36.780 --> 00:49:39.480
And I think I think it works very, very well.

687
00:49:39.539 --> 00:49:46.019
And it's all, it's all the levels, which I didn't pick up when I 1st watched the recon.

688
00:49:46.079 --> 00:49:47.880
And I think that's why I didn't enjoy.

689
00:49:47.940 --> 00:49:49.860
It's all the levels on which the word power is used.

690
00:49:49.920 --> 00:49:51.059
Yes.

691
00:49:51.059 --> 00:49:53.699
There's actual electrical power.

692
00:49:53.760 --> 00:49:55.320
There is political power.

693
00:49:55.380 --> 00:49:59.099
There is the power of ideas and dissent.

694
00:49:59.159 --> 00:50:07.800
There is the power of identity with the doctor, not quite saying he's the doctor, and as you say, also stepping into a dead man's shoes for the 2nd time in 10 minutes.

695
00:50:07.860 --> 00:50:14.460
Um, There is the multiple power struggles with the humans.

696
00:50:14.519 --> 00:50:18.300
The novelisation really fleshes out the character of Janley.

697
00:50:18.360 --> 00:50:21.719
Yeah, almost once a season in Doctor Who.

698
00:50:21.780 --> 00:50:23.880
We have had a female villain.

699
00:50:23.940 --> 00:50:25.380
We had Carla.

700
00:50:25.440 --> 00:50:26.820
We are...

701
00:50:26.820 --> 00:50:29.639
Marg, you know?

702
00:50:30.179 --> 00:50:33.840
They don't engine an A. They probably say.

703
00:50:33.900 --> 00:50:36.059
And now we've got Janley.

704
00:50:36.119 --> 00:50:37.079
Oh, there you go.

705
00:50:37.139 --> 00:50:38.159
Like missy.

706
00:50:38.400 --> 00:50:41.699
It's not a vowel, but it still sounds...

707
00:50:42.059 --> 00:50:45.659
And I mean, something that John Hill doesn't shy away from.

708
00:50:45.719 --> 00:50:49.440
And I know this is kind of my my my drum that I beat him podcast.

709
00:50:49.500 --> 00:51:01.019
He doesn't shy away from the notion of sexual politics and the notion that, yeah, the notion that generally would perhaps be taken slightly more seriously, if she wasn't a pretty girl.

710
00:51:01.260 --> 00:51:07.019
Oh, I think she's actually more interesting because of that because, yeah, she's able to subvert.

711
00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:10.260
Wouldn't this have been great if Whitaker had novelized this one?

712
00:51:10.320 --> 00:51:10.920
Yeah.

713
00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:14.099
This is my favourite Dalek story.

714
00:51:14.159 --> 00:51:15.780
But here's...

715
00:51:15.900 --> 00:51:19.980
Here's a bit of an insight into John Peele's version of Janley's mind.

716
00:51:20.039 --> 00:51:24.360
This is after she's demonstrated the Dalek gum to the rebels and they're all really happy.

717
00:51:24.480 --> 00:51:34.739
And the thing is, in John Peel's mind, she's helping the rebels, not overly because she's interested in overthrowing the colony, but just because it will improve her position in the colony.

718
00:51:34.800 --> 00:51:39.900
Fool, she thought, so easily manipulated by stupid phrases and idiotic desires.

719
00:51:40.019 --> 00:51:45.119
Soon there will be change all right, but there will be precious little freedom for you idiots.

720
00:51:45.179 --> 00:51:47.099
It's subtle, isn't it?

721
00:51:47.159 --> 00:51:49.739
It's a subtle narrative voice, John Peels.

722
00:51:49.800 --> 00:51:57.840
But that is so politically relevant because that is what bad leaders do and think of their people.

723
00:51:57.840 --> 00:52:02.219
Not that I'm pointing any fingers at a certain Prime Minister of Australia right now.

724
00:52:02.280 --> 00:52:04.320
I'm not crediting him with as much intelligence.

725
00:52:04.380 --> 00:52:07.619
But I now adore this story.

726
00:52:07.679 --> 00:52:14.340
I gone from thinking the story is, meh, to thinking that, God, this is so clever.

727
00:52:14.400 --> 00:52:19.559
See, I don't read generally as the villain in the same way that Bragen is.

728
00:52:19.619 --> 00:52:30.780
Like, I think Breagan is definitely a villain and he's played by he's Scarman, you know, the evil possessed tech guy in the future. and so it's a very...

729
00:52:30.840 --> 00:52:32.460
He's a it's a terrific performance.

730
00:52:32.519 --> 00:52:34.500
He's really he's terrifically good.

731
00:52:34.559 --> 00:52:45.900
But I think the fun thing about it is that the Daleks actually just end up being a kind of metaphor for the evil.

732
00:52:45.960 --> 00:52:51.119
You know, the Daleks are going to be used by one or either side.

733
00:52:51.179 --> 00:52:57.719
The rebels or the government in order to prosecute a conflict that they're just having on a purely human level.

734
00:52:57.780 --> 00:53:13.320
And so the reason the Daleks are unleashed is because of this, you know, human inability to get on and a human inability to cooperate and human rivalries and human political intrigue.

735
00:53:13.380 --> 00:53:22.199
And it unleashes this force, this ontological force, if you will. that just comes in and mows them all down.

736
00:53:22.199 --> 00:53:26.880
And so the Daleks get, they get an allegorical role.

737
00:53:26.940 --> 00:53:35.940
They get to play the role of human evil and so they're unleashed and they rayify that human, that human evil.

738
00:53:36.000 --> 00:53:38.159
And those scenes are just fantastic.

739
00:53:38.219 --> 00:53:41.460
They just literally go through the base and sort of kill everyone off.

740
00:53:41.579 --> 00:53:43.260
It's spectacular.

741
00:53:43.320 --> 00:53:45.059
In a way that Mondas never could.

742
00:53:45.119 --> 00:53:46.079
No, no, no.

743
00:53:46.199 --> 00:53:48.659
And then there's the stuff about power.

744
00:53:48.719 --> 00:53:49.800
So the whole thing.

745
00:53:49.860 --> 00:54:03.599
The Daleks get, when the Daleks become a real threat, what it is, is they're going to become independent from the colony's power supply and they're going to have their own power supply.

746
00:54:03.719 --> 00:54:11.460
And David Whitaker even brings back the idea of static electricity from the Daleks that they operate on a different kind of power from human power.

747
00:54:11.519 --> 00:54:24.539
So they're initially dependent on the colony's power, but once they get unleashed, once they get to be a real force, they become independent of the human power structure and end up being having a power structure of their own.

748
00:54:24.599 --> 00:54:27.960
And the way that the doctor destroys them is before that can happen.

749
00:54:28.019 --> 00:54:31.019
He destroys the colony's power structure.

750
00:54:31.139 --> 00:54:33.539
And he even says we'd better leave now.

751
00:54:33.659 --> 00:54:35.159
He destroys their power system.

752
00:54:35.219 --> 00:54:36.960
You know, their power system.

753
00:54:36.960 --> 00:54:38.760
And, uh...

754
00:54:38.760 --> 00:54:39.840
The poisonous atmosphere.

755
00:54:39.900 --> 00:54:44.579
And he leaves he leaves before before they can send him the bill is what he says.

756
00:54:44.639 --> 00:54:50.219
And so there's that, there is that meaning. before Jacqueline Pierce turns up.

757
00:54:50.219 --> 00:54:53.760
She's really, you're really just writing for the last scene, huh?

758
00:54:53.820 --> 00:54:56.579
She takes over the colony, yeah. dead bodies.

759
00:54:56.639 --> 00:54:58.079
And Commissioner Jan...

760
00:54:58.380 --> 00:55:03.360
So all of that, that double meaning of the word power and things.

761
00:55:03.420 --> 00:55:07.500
It is just terribly, terribly clever, massively interesting.

762
00:55:07.559 --> 00:55:08.639
Those great visuals.

763
00:55:08.699 --> 00:55:17.760
You know, that inside the dialect capsule where there's the incredible conveyor belt of the blob Daleks being put into the thing.

764
00:55:17.820 --> 00:55:19.500
There's huge scenes of Daleks.

765
00:55:19.559 --> 00:55:26.579
About half of them are cardboard cutouts, you know, but there's sort of a number of Daleks and things.

766
00:55:26.639 --> 00:55:34.019
The Daleks are clever, you know, they're subtle. you know, they're vastly better than I think they've ever been.

767
00:55:34.079 --> 00:55:35.820
And I'd have to agree with you.

768
00:55:35.880 --> 00:55:38.039
I think it's the best Dalek story.

769
00:55:38.099 --> 00:55:44.460
They show that the master of the universe, not through brute force, but through cunning and subterfusion guile.

770
00:55:44.519 --> 00:55:47.579
They're smarter than us and it's not nice to watch.

771
00:55:47.639 --> 00:55:48.659
It's not easy.

772
00:55:48.719 --> 00:55:55.260
And well, the reason they're smarter than us is because of our own petty rivalries.

773
00:55:55.320 --> 00:56:01.199
It's a bit like the cybermen are better than us because they don't have emotions and our emotions will literally blow us up with a giant bomb.

774
00:56:01.260 --> 00:56:07.079
The Daleks are better than us because they all work towards the same goal, whereas we fracture and split them.

775
00:56:07.139 --> 00:56:10.980
Does the Dalek actually ask Bragen why human beings kill one another?

776
00:56:11.039 --> 00:56:11.880
Yeah.

777
00:56:11.940 --> 00:56:13.559
And Breagan pretty much said so.

778
00:56:13.619 --> 00:56:14.579
Go away.

779
00:56:14.639 --> 00:56:22.380
I'm too busy to talk to you right now and the Dale is just like, thanks for bringing that up because that's my perfect moment in this story and you get the real moral imperative.

780
00:56:22.440 --> 00:56:25.079
Oh, once again, you don't have the upper hand human.

781
00:56:25.139 --> 00:56:26.219
You really don't.

782
00:56:26.340 --> 00:56:30.239
Yeah, no, the Daleks aren't evil in opposition to the humans.

783
00:56:30.300 --> 00:56:34.079
The Daleks are a representation of the evil.

784
00:56:34.079 --> 00:56:35.340
They're an each force.

785
00:56:35.400 --> 00:56:36.300
They're a force of nature.

786
00:56:36.360 --> 00:56:38.400
They're just a force, not necessarily, yeah.

787
00:56:38.460 --> 00:56:39.539
Yeah, that's right.

788
00:56:39.599 --> 00:56:41.760
They're a psychological force or something.

789
00:56:41.820 --> 00:56:49.079
It is so much smarter than the stupid vowels versus the Daleks, you know, the good and evil people and stuff.

790
00:56:49.139 --> 00:56:50.219
It's very...

791
00:56:50.280 --> 00:56:58.019
Another moment where we've seen before with Spooner, where Terry Nation's ideas are really great, as you can see as a device and as a place to start with.

792
00:56:58.079 --> 00:57:00.420
Just don't let him finish the script. somebody else jump in, please.

793
00:57:00.780 --> 00:57:02.400
It's all right.

794
00:57:02.460 --> 00:57:03.780
He almost does.

795
00:57:03.780 --> 00:57:05.940
It's true.

796
00:57:06.119 --> 00:57:12.059
We haven't really addressed the new guy and what he's like.

797
00:57:12.300 --> 00:57:15.000
So Trouton in this.

798
00:57:15.179 --> 00:57:19.199
Well, he's literally on his feet from the 1st few seconds.

799
00:57:19.320 --> 00:57:28.380
It's not what we may expect from later in generation stories where the doctor spends a little time lying around or recovery or what have you, which, you know, would be an understandable thing to do.

800
00:57:28.440 --> 00:57:31.019
They've got to just get him up and get him straight into the story.

801
00:57:31.079 --> 00:57:38.639
Well, he spends that 1st part of the story, the 1st few episodes referring to Billy's doctor as the real doctor.

802
00:57:38.699 --> 00:57:39.480
What the doctor did?

803
00:57:39.539 --> 00:57:39.960
The doctor?

804
00:57:40.019 --> 00:57:41.460
You're not really meant to believe it.

805
00:57:41.519 --> 00:57:42.840
The tensions kept going.

806
00:57:42.900 --> 00:57:45.480
He doesn't, I don't reckon personally.

807
00:57:45.539 --> 00:57:51.960
He doesn't become the doctor until the Leicesterton scene when he has that that one-on-one with Lester.

808
00:57:52.019 --> 00:57:53.219
Yeah, in all his early stuff.

809
00:57:53.280 --> 00:58:01.260
He plays it slightly differently in each scene, as if His character is trying out different personalities.

810
00:58:01.380 --> 00:58:03.360
Like he doesn't know who he is yet.

811
00:58:03.420 --> 00:58:05.219
He's he's a blank slate.

812
00:58:05.280 --> 00:58:11.519
So he tries being quite bullish at one and I think he's actually picked that up from Ben being very bullish with him.

813
00:58:11.579 --> 00:58:17.280
But yeah, as you say, it's when it's when the Daleks show up and he starts confronting Lesterson that he kind of remembers.

814
00:58:17.340 --> 00:58:22.800
And then the Dalek does that double take and looks at him in the ice stalk, sort of, and then you go, whoa.

815
00:58:22.800 --> 00:58:24.420
You know, does it recognise him?

816
00:58:24.480 --> 00:58:31.199
And actually, by the end of it, we never get a definitive answer as to whether the Daleks recognise him as the doctor.

817
00:58:31.980 --> 00:58:33.840
I don't recall that.

818
00:58:33.900 --> 00:58:35.219
I don't know.

819
00:58:35.219 --> 00:58:36.900
I'm sure they do.

820
00:58:36.960 --> 00:58:44.159
I think because I was sure that I was sure that they would, but you know, Ben and Polly surmised that the Dalek looked at him so he must be the doctor.

821
00:58:44.219 --> 00:58:46.500
But it's never explicitly stated.

822
00:58:46.559 --> 00:58:48.000
And I think that's very clever as well.

823
00:58:48.059 --> 00:58:51.719
It's a way to keep that kind of thing going because, you know, a dalek would start screaming.

824
00:58:51.780 --> 00:58:53.280
It's the doctor, like a broken Hitler dog.

825
00:58:53.340 --> 00:58:57.780
Except that they're trying to be subtle and the Daleks are being undercover at the moment.

826
00:58:57.840 --> 00:58:58.500
Yeah.

827
00:58:58.559 --> 00:59:12.719
I think that the, I think that the huge, huge PD, and this is going to be a huge feature of season 4 because it's the one that was most heavily, um, I want to say decimated, but I'll annoy Patents if I do.

828
00:59:12.780 --> 00:59:16.800
It was the most heavily affected by the junkings of episodes.

829
00:59:16.860 --> 00:59:22.380
There's not a single story that exists in its entirety, and heaps and heaps of them don't exist.

830
00:59:22.500 --> 00:59:30.900
And it's something like there's like a 12 episode run or something like that where the episodes don't exist from 10th Planet 3 to Underwater Menace 2.

831
00:59:31.320 --> 00:59:35.400
And so we don't get to see Trouton for a really, really long time.

832
00:59:35.460 --> 00:59:39.360
And we'll come next episode to underwater menace and it's terrible.

833
00:59:39.420 --> 01:00:00.599
But the, the, um, but the relief in actually seeing Troughton's performance in episode 2 for the 1st time and he's magnetic, even, even though the material is terrible, it just would have been quite spectacular to see him because his doctor, like we can't see the performance, but we can see his doctor and his doctor is vastly, vastly different.

834
01:00:00.659 --> 01:00:10.139
The closest that we've come to it before is the savages where he takes such delight in smashing up the machinery.

835
01:00:10.260 --> 01:00:12.000
Yeah, yeah, real anarchic moment.

836
01:00:12.059 --> 01:00:15.780
Here he is, you know, he's the most feared being in all the cosmos.

837
01:00:15.840 --> 01:00:18.960
You know, he drops out of the sky and tears down your world, you know.

838
01:00:19.019 --> 01:00:20.639
He's unpredictable.

839
01:00:20.699 --> 01:00:22.380
He smashes the place up.

840
01:00:22.440 --> 01:00:32.940
You know, he watches as everyone gets killed, but he destroys the Daleks and then he's off. before there's any, you know, explanation or apology or anything.

841
01:00:33.000 --> 01:00:35.159
He's really, really remarkable.

842
01:00:35.219 --> 01:00:37.440
He just smashes the place up and leaves.

843
01:00:37.500 --> 01:00:43.320
And that becomes quite a thing for Patrick Troughton's doctor, which we'll talk about more next episode.

844
01:00:43.380 --> 01:00:52.920
He does sort of, after whatever he's done, you know, regardless of any good or bad, final consequence.

845
01:00:52.980 --> 01:00:56.039
Obviously, there's always a good thing that's happened.

846
01:00:56.099 --> 01:01:00.119
He slips away quietly and unnoticed, more so than any other doctor.

847
01:01:00.179 --> 01:01:04.380
And I think I think that's going to be quite interesting to look at as we go through his era.

848
01:01:05.039 --> 01:01:07.320
But he's spectacular.

849
01:01:07.380 --> 01:01:11.159
And I think it does give the series a shot in the arm straight away.

850
01:01:11.219 --> 01:01:12.599
We'll see how it plays out.

851
01:01:12.719 --> 01:01:18.900
Let's not forget that we 1st we see the 1st shimmer of the dark doctor in this.

852
01:01:18.960 --> 01:01:23.639
Billy would never have sent a platoon of guards to their death list.

853
01:01:23.699 --> 01:01:24.780
I don't believe he did.

854
01:01:24.840 --> 01:01:25.920
I don't remember a moment.

855
01:01:25.980 --> 01:01:26.519
Do you?

856
01:01:26.519 --> 01:01:28.260
But Bragen's guards.

857
01:01:28.320 --> 01:01:31.199
That's what Pat does to sort it out.

858
01:01:31.260 --> 01:01:32.280
That's what they're for.

859
01:01:32.340 --> 01:01:34.320
Send them there to divert it. soldiers.

860
01:01:34.380 --> 01:01:35.219
Send them off to the doom.

861
01:01:35.280 --> 01:01:36.119
I don't like soldiers.

862
01:01:36.179 --> 01:01:37.019
Yeah.

863
01:01:37.079 --> 01:01:46.739
Yeah, I was looking out for that because I had heard of that and I didn't think he's as directly responsible as it seems, but he's remarkably unaffected by it.

864
01:01:46.800 --> 01:01:47.760
Do you know what I mean?

865
01:01:47.820 --> 01:01:49.500
He's kind of happy for it to happen.

866
01:01:49.559 --> 01:01:57.239
Yeah, so he does become this stranger marking figure in a way that we haven't really seen very much of.

867
01:01:57.420 --> 01:02:03.420
Right, on that note, I think it's time for us to move on.

868
01:02:03.480 --> 01:02:24.599
So we'll be back next week with a new episode looking at the next 3 stories for Patrick Troughton, and yet another shake up to the TARDIS crew in those 3 stories of the Highlanders, the underwater menace, and the moonbase, where we also see the side men come back again.

869
01:02:24.659 --> 01:02:28.260
And I think we see Doctor Who reach its current form.

870
01:02:28.320 --> 01:02:31.320
So I'm going to say good night.

871
01:02:31.380 --> 01:02:33.000
Yeah, good night for me.

872
01:02:33.059 --> 01:02:34.079
And good night from me.

873
01:02:34.199 --> 01:02:35.400
Good night.

874
01:02:39.119 --> 01:02:42.360
You have been interesting, Michael.

875
01:02:42.360 --> 01:02:45.840
Pirate, where they can bother me, Brandon, don't get me turns down.

876
01:02:45.900 --> 01:02:46.800
Please, get me down.

877
01:02:46.920 --> 01:02:50.340
Mum wetting once we call it on Sunday before October.

878
01:02:50.400 --> 01:03:02.699
The next episode will be released on her baby, when it's sick. at Biduentirety.com, but do entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FDE.com, Twitter, it's a short, eh?

879
01:03:02.699 --> 01:03:04.019
Booping all about.

880
01:03:07.079 --> 01:03:15.360
All right, on that note, Moving on to the infant era, the final Willie Partner story, spoiler alert, the 10th planet.

881
01:03:16.019 --> 01:03:22.199
Woo, woo, our, our, our, our...