WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 12:11:06

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And returning to our original music can only mean one thing.

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It's time for Flight through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast

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which gives you, the listener at home, a taste of Thomas Tickler.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan, and I'm perplexed.

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And welcome to the 1st episode of Flight Through Entirety, covering

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season 4 of Doctor Who.

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Very important season.

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Of course, we say goodbye to the 1st doctor and hello to the 2nd

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doctor, Patrick Troughton.

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I'm going to start the clock on our 1st story, odd season four, the

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smugglers.

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And then, dead man, they could be.

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Norwood.

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Ring.

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Good.

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Well I think we're done.

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I believe this is my story, Nathan.

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But yeah, there's not a lot to it aside from RRR and yeah, there

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we go.

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Now, we have an interesting position here.

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Doctor Who is in a position of transition.

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Once again, we have another new producer in the form of in as

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Lloyd.

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Hmm.

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And, you know, Innes had sort of put his stamp on.

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So I put his stamp on with the savages and the war machines.

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I think it's less successful here, really.

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We have a historical based around Cornwall and pirates and

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smugglers, but it's...

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You know what?

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This was my one and I've watched the recon and I've read the novel

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and it just leaves you with an immense sense of meh.

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Oh, did you listen to the audio though, the BBC audio?

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Well, I did that when I was listening, watching, watching the

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record.

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It's not... that's the thing. not bad, but what good there is, it's

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just sort of outweighed by sort of feeling it's very tired.

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It's hardly surprised that Miss Lloyd decided to drop the

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historicals just a few stories later.

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I think it is bad.

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And I think it's rightly forgotten.

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I really like quite a lot.

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We've got the good, the bad in the middle.

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So, again, we've talked endlessly about historicals.

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And there are 2 kinds of modes of historicals which have been

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identified as this Sandra, I have to channel Sandra for once, once

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an episode.

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There's the Lucarati style historical, like the Aztecs or Marco

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Polo, where the history is kind of, or the massacre, I think

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probably is, is, you know, the quintessential one where we're in a

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dangerous period of history.

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We can't really affect it and we just need to escape and history

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is a sort of scary hostile place.

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And then we get the, what, the Donald Cotton version, the Dennis

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Spooner version, where we drop the characters into a story with

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strong genre tropes and let them have fun.

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And so presumably this is the pirate story in the same way that

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the curse of the black spot in series 6, I want to say, is the

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pirate story.

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Like, I don't know whether it's because I'm not so familiar with

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the source material in there.

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You know, there are definite sort of antecedents in literature and

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things, but I just sort of found it, you know, really a bit

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boring.

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We have the prison and we have the tavern as usual, the pub and

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the prison in quick succession.

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So everything that we need from a 60s historical.

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But there's just, you know, really very little to say.

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I think production wise, the fun thing about it is there's a

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season opener.

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We've got a new set of companions who we obviously, you know, we're

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introduced to it at the end of last year in what will become a

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tradition, you know, the new companion will be introduced in the

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final story.

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So we start with these, it's their 1st trip in the TARDIS.

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They're really sort of fun and interesting.

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Richard, you've said before, how much fun you think it would have

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been to have these 2 young people kind of look after Billy as the

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doctor for a whole year that they've been sort of quite an

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interesting sort of idea.

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Kind of Richard Lester.

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You've already mentioned the knack and how to get it or one of the

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Beatles films.

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It's, yeah, you've got model London jumping right in with, who was

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the Sabotsky film that they made before, Doctor Who and the

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Daleks?

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It's Trad Dad.

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It's that kind of thing.

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Yeah, are the old and new.

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And I think if Billy had been more well and better, just cared for

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by the producers.

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We've seen how sensitive Bill is in other moments and what we

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allude to that fabulous just recently discovered moment of an

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interview on the 10th planet DVD that we all just watched before

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recording this where Billy does.

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Wow, talk about heartfelt truth.

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I really get the sensitivity and candour of this man of how much

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he cared about this program to the point, in fact, like you get a

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lot of really, very sensitive people, that he excluded everyone

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who he identified as an enemy who didn't share the passion that he

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had.

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So instead of being able to maybe bring people in, he excluded and

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ostracised, and the more angry he came, he became the more he

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including, you know, as people like, uh, wills have said, you know

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ostracised people on the set, which we'll guess we'll get to in a

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moment.

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But this is really poignant for me these last 3 stories.

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Is it 3 stories?

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Two stories.

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Two, two, two.

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I thought it was 3 because so much happens.

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Since we're on the smugglers, and, you know, and again, you can

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look at, see that Ennis Lloyd's looked over the shoulder of Daphne

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Deren said, which cozzies haven't we seen yet?

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We've got we've got ancient Greeks and we've got Amarind.

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Oh, hello, pirates.

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But we've got, you know, antecedents are really big at the time

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that Disney's Pirates of the Caribbean, their 1st film version had

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come out very recently.

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That was a reasonable success, RR.

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Peter Pan, which is a 50s cartoon from Disney was still doing

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really well on the summer holiday circuit in cinemas.

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Carry on Jack?

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Carry on Jack.

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Thank you, Carry on.

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That we mentioned last podcast.

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Carry on, Dickon Highwayman.

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And more importantly, Dr. Sin, SYN, which was recently broadcast

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several times for BBC for extra the radio thing I keep going back

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to because I love it.

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And that's got Rufus Sewell, Sewell in it as the eponymous hero, Dr

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Sewell.

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And it's almost this story.

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And that was a series of little books that were around at the

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top.

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Just kind of like post-Jack Harkness, Treasure Island, Robert

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Louis Stevenson kind of thing.

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The pirates were, it's something you should do in the historical

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and we haven't got around to it yet.

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And I think it's a really jolly romp.

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And lots, there's lots of R's and gnashings and there's some truly

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horrible, horrible characters and sharing dark ones.

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Cherub is amazing.

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And what about the squire?

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What a dreadful, dreadful black carted character.

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No name, I like it.

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That's the one thing that I like.

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You see, that's the thing.

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I really like him, but I think he's the worst villain in the

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story.

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Yeah, I think so too.

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Cherub and Captain Pike.

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You expect them to be Illinois because they're pirates and they're

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doing the sort at RRR.

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Whereas the, um, the squire, he's insidious because he is only out

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for himself, and he flip-flops throughout the whole story to

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whatever side will give him the greatest advantage, and he gets

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away at the end.

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No, you see, I don't read it that way.

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What I read it as is he encounters.

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He's like, you know, like he's a small time smuggler.

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Paul Wits and Jones, by the way.

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He's the enormous sort of hilarious fat guy from the mutants, the

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evil marshal from solos from the mutants.

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It a really fun performance.

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He's really funny to watch.

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He's got a fabulous wig, you know, all of that.

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And I think that he's like a small time criminal who then

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discovers what real evil bad guys are about and decides that he

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doesn't want any of that.

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And so he actually reforms.

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I think it's it's a little bit like the Algernon character in the

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Highlanders, which we'll talk about next time.

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He does have a little bit of a character arc.

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And so I think he's redeemed.

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I think he gets away with it because it's a redemption arc.

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I mean, it's not very strong. of these things are particularly

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strong in the 60s.

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I suppose it's hard to tell without the full visuals.

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And can I just say that what we do have suggest that it would have

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been pretty impressive?

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So this is the 1st time...

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So we go on location to Cornwall.

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It's the 1st time the cast have to stay in a hotel, like they're

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not driving distance from BBC television centre or wherever.

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Where are we, Lime Grove?

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God knows where we are.

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Were we recording at the moment?

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Wherever we're recording.

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Yeah.

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So they actually go and stay in a hotel in Cornwall.

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The beach scenes look fantastic.

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There is surviving footage of people riding horses around the

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place outdoors, which is really good.

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And this is another one of these really funny ones where a lot of

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the moving images in the recon are things that were cut out by the

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Australian senses.

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And so you just get moments of people being stabbed and that's

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back to the slide show, you know?

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So it doesn't help that it's just a recon that you're just

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watching a slideshow, but it is sort of largely pretty forgettable

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I think.

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What I find the most interesting thing about it is...

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Looking at the story from a production standpoint, because the

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actual story itself, You were talking about different types of

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historicals.

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I think this is a slightly different historical from what we've

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seen before.

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This is an historical adventure story.

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So it's the kind of adventure story in the style of, say, the last

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half of the Daleks with a series of events that happen, which just

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happens to have it and historical backdrop and historical

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characters.

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But what I find most interesting about it is it sidelines the

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doctor in the same way he is sidelined in the celestial time

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maker.

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He's locked up in a room with one of the villains and even ends up

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playing games.

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You know, he ends up playing a game of cards.

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But the difference is it appears that Innes Lloyd or Brian Hales

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who also wrote that story, it appears that someone had the

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sensitivity to say, we're not just going to shut William in a room

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and shut him up.

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We're going to put him in a room.

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We're going to take him away from the main plot, but he is going

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to have lots of the stuff he's good at.

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He's going to have rapport with the villain and be very

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intelligent and clever while we get Ben and Polly doing the other

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stuff.

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This feels like Ennis Lloyd kind of going, I know I have to get

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rid of my star.

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I'm figuring out how to do it, but is there a way I can minimise

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his role.

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And I find that very, very interesting and certainly Billy seems

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more comfortable here than he was towards the end of season 3 and

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this was made immediately afterwards.

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It was made immediately after the warm machines.

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The war machines, you can see him getting his vigour back because

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it's a, it is a better script than the last few.

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You know, I mean, the savages start the upward. yeah got stuff to

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do.

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Whereas, yeah, the smugglers is kind of weird because it does

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sideline him, but at the same time, he gets lots of doctor-ish

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things to do while Ben and Polly are off doing the legwork.

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And Ben and Polly straight away are an excellent team.

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Yeah, they are great.

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And we've got this interesting inversion of Ian and Barbara.

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I think I mentioned it last month where Polly is sort of mind is

250
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wide open to accept anything.

251
00:11:50.340 --> 00:11:52.500
And Ben is completely, no, it is not that.

252
00:11:52.620 --> 00:11:54.419
You know, there's not time travel.

253
00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:56.639
We're just down by the sea and I've got to get back to my ship.

254
00:11:56.879 --> 00:12:00.419
Whereas, you know, Ian and Barbara, we're both a bit more open

255
00:11:59.759 --> 00:12:02.100
minded, a little bit sceptical, a little bit open-minded, but

256
00:12:02.100 --> 00:12:03.960
Polly and Ben, they're just chalk and cheese.

257
00:12:04.019 --> 00:12:06.240
Stephen Stephen didn't believe.

258
00:12:06.299 --> 00:12:09.120
In fact, this is what this reminded me of is you've got a

259
00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:13.740
historical and the time meddler goes out of its way to establish

260
00:12:13.740 --> 00:12:15.840
the new team, the new TARDIS team.

261
00:12:15.899 --> 00:12:19.679
And this does that as well by giving Ben and Polly a lot to do.

262
00:12:19.740 --> 00:12:22.919
And presumably they're aware at this point that Ben and Polly are

263
00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:25.320
going to have to carry the transition, so they need to be kind of

264
00:12:25.320 --> 00:12:27.480
strong characters whom we know.

265
00:12:27.539 --> 00:12:29.340
And so they are given a lot to do.

266
00:12:29.399 --> 00:12:33.419
They get to outwit Tom and get out of the obligatory historical

267
00:12:33.419 --> 00:12:34.620
prison that they're in.

268
00:12:34.799 --> 00:12:39.179
And what I like about their outwitting of Tom, they outwit Tom

269
00:12:39.179 --> 00:12:40.320
using witchcraft.

270
00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:44.340
And I then expected that that would be a cliffhacker that, Oh, no

271
00:12:44.340 --> 00:12:45.120
they're going to be burned at stake.

272
00:12:45.179 --> 00:12:48.120
But no, it's completely forgotten because Tom thinks he's got a

273
00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:48.539
curse on him.

274
00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:49.679
He's not going to tell anyone.

275
00:12:49.740 --> 00:12:50.879
He's got a curse on him.

276
00:12:50.940 --> 00:12:54.240
So I quite, I quite liked that that subverted it.

277
00:12:54.299 --> 00:12:55.860
So maybe I like the story more than I thought.

278
00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:56.879
I don't know.

279
00:12:56.940 --> 00:12:59.580
There are certainly lots of good little moments in there.

280
00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:04.500
The Brian Hale script. and he could almost, well, great links

281
00:13:04.500 --> 00:13:07.379
where he does know wrong. and don't forget the other shows he did

282
00:13:07.379 --> 00:13:13.259
in the 70s for children's TV, where he was just terrific, really

283
00:13:13.259 --> 00:13:13.620
really good.

284
00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:17.399
The Robert Banks Stewart with his... of his time.

285
00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:20.100
I really, really, really like this.

286
00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:21.840
There's some really lovely little moments in it.

287
00:13:21.899 --> 00:13:25.200
And again, Billy's stuff is good when he has one-on-ones with the

288
00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:28.679
it's interesting when you go to the background of this story.

289
00:13:28.740 --> 00:13:32.159
It almost seems like Karma of the actor, where, you know, there

290
00:13:32.159 --> 00:13:35.940
are lots of conflicting stories from Billy's own, um, telling of

291
00:13:35.940 --> 00:13:40.679
where he was health wise and place wise and all the rest of it.

292
00:13:40.740 --> 00:13:43.799
But, you know, where it might have appeared that he was faking his

293
00:13:43.799 --> 00:13:48.000
illness in the previous season, Lloyd is now finding that he

294
00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:49.799
really isn't doing as well.

295
00:13:49.860 --> 00:13:54.000
And, you know, Billy later on said that he'd he'd left because the

296
00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:55.139
show was becoming evil.

297
00:13:55.200 --> 00:13:58.080
That was actually the word he used, but then he also said that

298
00:13:58.080 --> 00:13:59.340
he'd had pleurisy.

299
00:13:59.399 --> 00:14:04.860
And, um, pneumonia, I was trying to say, and and also a nervous

300
00:14:04.860 --> 00:14:06.779
breakdown at this time.

301
00:14:06.840 --> 00:14:10.919
I don't really hear it in the performance, but still...

302
00:14:11.100 --> 00:14:15.960
I suppose the cases with a lot of actors who do have breakdowns or

303
00:14:15.960 --> 00:14:19.379
depression or what have you, but it's actually the acting, when

304
00:14:19.379 --> 00:14:21.360
they're acting, they're functioning well.

305
00:14:21.419 --> 00:14:25.200
Well, you know, it's after recording episode two, that his wife

306
00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:29.580
Heather, relates conventions, that that was when he came home to

307
00:14:29.580 --> 00:14:32.399
Mayfield and told her that he was leaving the series.

308
00:14:32.460 --> 00:14:33.179
Right.

309
00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:36.360
So is he told during the smugglers?

310
00:14:36.419 --> 00:14:42.179
Like he told her that he was leaving the series, not because of

311
00:14:42.179 --> 00:14:45.000
ill health, but just because he said, as he said, the Sarah had

312
00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:45.600
become too dark.

313
00:14:45.659 --> 00:14:48.120
There are many different versions from them.

314
00:14:48.419 --> 00:14:51.539
That timing would make sense, though, because this was filmed at

315
00:14:51.539 --> 00:14:52.860
the end of the 3rd production book.

316
00:14:52.919 --> 00:14:53.399
Yeah, of course.

317
00:14:53.399 --> 00:14:56.159
And then 10th Planet was the 1st story of the new production

318
00:14:56.159 --> 00:14:56.460
book.

319
00:14:56.580 --> 00:14:58.679
And he's a guest star.

320
00:14:58.740 --> 00:15:00.419
He's not the star of the show.

321
00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:02.879
I mean, he's credited as Dr. Hewitt, the head of it.

322
00:15:02.940 --> 00:15:07.259
But in the 10th planet, he's actually, he's just a guest performer

323
00:15:07.259 --> 00:15:09.179
as far as contracts are concerned.

324
00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:12.299
So they're just getting back for the 1st 4 episodes of series 4.

325
00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:14.580
So yeah, that does make sense.

326
00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:16.799
Maybe he was told during the studio stuff.

327
00:15:16.860 --> 00:15:21.240
Someone at home will know, someone will...

328
00:15:21.299 --> 00:15:24.960
Well, I mean, if we look at adventure in time and space, that

329
00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:25.980
certainly seems to be the case.

330
00:15:26.100 --> 00:15:30.360
It's funny you mentioned that because this was about the time when

331
00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:34.139
was it not that Lloyd had commissioned Whitaker to write the

332
00:15:34.139 --> 00:15:37.320
destiny of Doctor Who, which was about how to change over the

333
00:15:37.320 --> 00:15:37.679
role.

334
00:15:38.039 --> 00:15:39.659
Horror.

335
00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:42.000
I probably got even less to say, actually.

336
00:15:42.059 --> 00:15:42.899
Derek Ware.

337
00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:44.700
Derek Ware as a Spaniard.

338
00:15:44.759 --> 00:15:45.539
We haven't mentioned him.

339
00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:49.019
I used to have it as a Spaniard.

340
00:15:49.019 --> 00:15:50.940
Terry Walsh, too, appearance, apparently.

341
00:15:51.000 --> 00:15:52.200
Oh, look.

342
00:15:52.200 --> 00:15:52.980
Yeah, it's huge.

343
00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:57.059
Yeah, it's right. possibly better than you remember or not.

344
00:15:57.120 --> 00:16:01.259
But let's have... only as an audio, not as a recon.

345
00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:04.799
Again, I just say, if there aren't a lot of images, then recons

346
00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:05.940
are really hard to sit through.

347
00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:06.899
Pictures are great.

348
00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:09.659
It makes it look like the location stuff would have been really

349
00:16:09.659 --> 00:16:10.200
speaking.

350
00:16:10.259 --> 00:16:12.960
I like using just like having it slightly in my head.

351
00:16:13.019 --> 00:16:15.179
It's like reading out loud and listening to the audios.

352
00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:15.600
Okay.

353
00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:16.919
All right.

354
00:16:16.980 --> 00:16:21.480
On that note, moving on to the Infant era, the final Willie

355
00:16:21.480 --> 00:16:22.200
Partner story.

356
00:16:22.259 --> 00:16:24.120
Spoiler alert, the 10th planet.

357
00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:39.240
Right, Richard, this was yours, though.

358
00:16:39.299 --> 00:16:43.740
It is, this is the, what Kenneth Williams have said, mid 70s radio

359
00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:46.500
deviation of the universe.

360
00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:48.240
This is one of the inversion.

361
00:16:48.299 --> 00:16:54.899
Everything's topsy-turvy, misrule, the January Callens have been

362
00:16:54.899 --> 00:16:57.960
brought home and the universe has never be the same again.

363
00:16:58.440 --> 00:17:04.019
Other critics have said, you know, um, Oh, Santa, of course, we

364
00:17:04.019 --> 00:17:08.160
always go to our go-to's, Mr. Sandifer, and Mr. Lawrence Miles and

365
00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:11.099
Mr. Tatwood, to both say, everyone's got this wrong.

366
00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:15.539
This isn't like a res- you know, a regeneration story.

367
00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:18.900
And this isn't a cyberman story because people didn't know what

368
00:17:18.900 --> 00:17:19.319
that was.

369
00:17:19.380 --> 00:17:22.619
And the cybermen are never going to be the same in any way ever

370
00:17:22.619 --> 00:17:22.859
again.

371
00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:24.420
Just to jump in.

372
00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:26.400
I reckon this is the best side of the man's story.

373
00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:28.440
Because of what it suggests.

374
00:17:28.500 --> 00:17:31.440
Not necessarily for what you're seeing on screen, but for the

375
00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:32.220
ideas.

376
00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:34.440
Although, can I say, the scariest moment.

377
00:17:34.500 --> 00:17:38.339
I'm watching this with a friend who's now in his 50s and watched

378
00:17:38.339 --> 00:17:41.759
the 1st episode with that gorgeous moment of what looks like a

379
00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:46.619
human hand in a sleeve on the body, you pan up, that's a surgical

380
00:17:46.619 --> 00:17:51.900
gimp mask with, get this, an actor in blackface behind it, with

381
00:17:51.900 --> 00:17:54.480
white staring eyes and a helmet, utterly expressionist.

382
00:17:54.539 --> 00:17:57.240
It's still one of the most frozen horror moments the series has

383
00:17:57.240 --> 00:17:57.720
ever done.

384
00:17:57.779 --> 00:17:59.160
It's truly scary even now.

385
00:17:59.220 --> 00:18:00.660
And what are these things?

386
00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:01.500
What are these things?

387
00:18:01.859 --> 00:18:07.440
Yeah, I, the sidemen just look fantastic and and it really is, they

388
00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:12.059
will just become robots by the time, the next time they appear and

389
00:18:12.059 --> 00:18:14.640
and they'll be being groomed.

390
00:18:14.700 --> 00:18:18.660
It's the 2nd monster ever to reappear, the 2nd monster to maker

391
00:18:18.660 --> 00:18:20.160
another appearance.

392
00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:24.779
As poor ward, with those poor food, they never worked again.

393
00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:30.299
And so they're being groomed, obviously, to replace the Daleks

394
00:18:30.299 --> 00:18:34.019
which they will do, essentially, during the, during seasons 5 and

395
00:18:34.019 --> 00:18:36.000
6, there are, there are no Daleks.

396
00:18:36.059 --> 00:18:38.519
I think at this point, the BBC were very much aware that Terry

397
00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:41.700
Nation was trying to launch his series in America and they knew if

398
00:18:41.700 --> 00:18:43.799
that happened, they wouldn't be able to use the Daleks.

399
00:18:43.859 --> 00:18:47.940
Yeah, so they so they turn the they turn the side men into sort of

400
00:18:47.940 --> 00:18:51.059
fairly generic robots and there are elements of them in the moon

401
00:18:51.059 --> 00:18:53.039
base when they come back.

402
00:18:53.099 --> 00:18:55.259
There are elements of this kind of side man there.

403
00:18:55.259 --> 00:18:57.420
But this kind of side man's never seen again.

404
00:18:57.480 --> 00:19:00.779
And for those of you who haven't seen it, I mean, it's

405
00:19:00.779 --> 00:19:01.259
remarkable.

406
00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:04.680
They have human hands, they don't have any gloves on, their faces

407
00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:05.940
are just sort of cloth.

408
00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:11.279
And as Richard said, you can see the actor's eyes, but there's

409
00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:14.700
black makeup around the eyes, the mouth, they just...

410
00:19:14.700 --> 00:19:19.200
And the gorma, silent mouths, without, they don't move, but speech

411
00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:20.039
comes out.

412
00:19:20.099 --> 00:19:23.579
Peter Davidson, when he was here in 83 just to age me.

413
00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:26.819
Did a little convention here at Sydney Uni and he said to us back

414
00:19:26.819 --> 00:19:27.180
then.

415
00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:28.440
Were you with that one, Nathan?

416
00:19:28.500 --> 00:19:29.579
You weren't.

417
00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:30.539
No, Brendan.

418
00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:34.799
And he said this most scary moment for me growing up was that 1st

419
00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:38.279
episode and the voices and I still have memory of Peter Davidson

420
00:19:38.279 --> 00:19:38.880
doing the voice.

421
00:19:38.940 --> 00:19:41.640
That singsong like this, up, Banda.

422
00:19:41.700 --> 00:19:44.640
And he liked that, that was, he said, that's what computer synthes

423
00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:47.039
voices were like in the 60s more, all right.

424
00:19:47.099 --> 00:19:47.519
Oh, really?

425
00:19:47.579 --> 00:19:47.940
Did they?

426
00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:50.700
Yeah, he said, that's what we thought computer voices would sound

427
00:19:50.700 --> 00:19:50.940
like.

428
00:19:50.940 --> 00:19:55.680
And the synthesised thing of the robotic, not having pitch in your

429
00:19:55.680 --> 00:19:57.420
but not having any meaning for the words.

430
00:19:57.480 --> 00:19:59.640
Really, really unsettling.

431
00:19:59.700 --> 00:20:01.619
And my go to just to jump in.

432
00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:04.500
If you want to know how good these cybermen would be in the new

433
00:20:04.500 --> 00:20:04.920
series.

434
00:20:04.980 --> 00:20:08.819
Have a listen to Nicholas Briggs' voices on Mark Platt's spare

435
00:20:08.819 --> 00:20:09.299
finish.

436
00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:10.619
Thank you, spare parts.

437
00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:12.240
They're really scary.

438
00:20:12.299 --> 00:20:16.259
Apparently, I mean, the story goes that Peter Davidson and Sarah

439
00:20:16.259 --> 00:20:19.980
Sutton just roared with laughter when they 1st heard Mick Briggs

440
00:20:19.980 --> 00:20:20.519
do the voice.

441
00:20:20.579 --> 00:20:22.200
Okay, Simon, yeah.

442
00:20:22.259 --> 00:20:22.799
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

443
00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:23.579
Apparently.

444
00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:24.359
That's wonderful.

445
00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:27.900
Um...

446
00:20:27.900 --> 00:20:28.859
That's it.

447
00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:32.099
Totally devoid of meaning.

448
00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:35.099
No, you have to do the rest of this.

449
00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:38.819
No, I...

450
00:20:38.819 --> 00:20:39.480
Lucy.

451
00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:41.940
But never far away, are they?

452
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:43.680
That's the little yellow character.

453
00:20:43.740 --> 00:20:47.220
Um, the Busby little yellow character in, not vision on.

454
00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:49.980
What's the, what's the, anyway, that's the puppet voice book.

455
00:20:50.039 --> 00:20:51.660
Look it up and put it off.

456
00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:52.559
The rest of the thing.

457
00:20:52.619 --> 00:20:56.339
But there was a character on 70s British TV that actually had that

458
00:20:56.339 --> 00:20:56.640
voice.

459
00:20:56.700 --> 00:20:57.900
Well, it's funny.

460
00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:00.779
It's funny Peter Davidson saying that's what we imagine computers

461
00:21:00.779 --> 00:21:03.900
would sound like because the other very famous verbal computer

462
00:21:03.900 --> 00:21:08.460
from that time was the Star Trek computer, which of course we now

463
00:21:08.460 --> 00:21:11.099
think of the Star Trek computer as Major Barrett's next

464
00:21:11.099 --> 00:21:11.519
generation.

465
00:21:11.579 --> 00:21:14.400
Very gentle kind of voice like this.

466
00:21:14.460 --> 00:21:20.460
But in the 60s, it was major doing a Dalek cyber animals and it

467
00:21:20.460 --> 00:21:25.319
was very harsh and very high pitched like the cyber.

468
00:21:25.380 --> 00:21:27.599
But the Simon have this sort of strange thing where they don't

469
00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:30.539
have normal sort of intonation contours in their speech.

470
00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:32.640
And so it just sort of randomly goes up and down.

471
00:21:32.700 --> 00:21:35.220
And they also are sort of terribly polite.

472
00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:36.240
Do you know what I mean?

473
00:21:36.299 --> 00:21:38.400
And they're much more eloquent.

474
00:21:38.460 --> 00:21:41.339
I mean, by the time of the invasion, I don't think the sidemen

475
00:21:41.339 --> 00:21:42.720
even get a line in the invasion.

476
00:21:42.779 --> 00:21:44.460
I can't remember them saying anything at all.

477
00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:46.140
But these ones are quite chatty.

478
00:21:46.200 --> 00:21:47.339
Look what they offer.

479
00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:50.700
Yes, well, you see, that is the most terrifying thing.

480
00:21:50.759 --> 00:21:53.220
It's looking even more pertinent now with the whole global warming

481
00:21:53.220 --> 00:21:54.299
talk and what's happening.

482
00:21:54.359 --> 00:21:58.440
They offer peace, security, and a passionless life without pain.

483
00:21:58.500 --> 00:22:00.480
In fact, it's terrific.

484
00:22:00.539 --> 00:22:01.319
There's that scene.

485
00:22:01.380 --> 00:22:05.579
It must be an episode 2 where because the sidemen are only in

486
00:22:05.579 --> 00:22:07.319
episodes 2 and 4 as well.

487
00:22:07.380 --> 00:22:08.940
They appear at the end of episode one.

488
00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:11.279
That's the cliffhanger. you know, what the hell are they?

489
00:22:11.339 --> 00:22:15.299
Then they're in episode 2 and they're dispatched at the end of

490
00:22:15.299 --> 00:22:15.900
episode two.

491
00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:20.579
Then episode 3 is virtually free of sidemen and episode 4 has has

492
00:22:20.579 --> 00:22:22.619
them back, a new set Invade.

493
00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:26.460
And in episode two, they're explaining that what they're going to

494
00:22:26.460 --> 00:22:30.119
do is save the human beings because Mondas is going to sample all

495
00:22:30.119 --> 00:22:31.980
of us energy and they're all going to die.

496
00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:34.200
And so they're actually all trying to talk.

497
00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:36.420
And the sidemen are going, you know, what's your age?

498
00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:39.000
You know, what's your name, all of that sort of thing, like

499
00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:42.779
they're collecting information to prepare them for their sign

500
00:22:42.779 --> 00:22:43.500
but...

501
00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:46.619
They book...

502
00:22:46.740 --> 00:22:49.559
No, your real name, because otherwise we can't say it so much.

503
00:22:49.619 --> 00:22:54.240
But they, like, they're quite calmly talking in this fabulously

504
00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:58.740
dispassionate way about converting all the people on the bass.

505
00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:03.599
And it is something that you lose, like, you know, by the 70s, I

506
00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:07.019
mean, there's only one side man's story in the 70s, Revenge of the

507
00:23:07.019 --> 00:23:07.500
Sidemen.

508
00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:10.440
There's no mention of them turning people into Cybermen.

509
00:23:10.500 --> 00:23:11.400
No, a need thing.

510
00:23:11.460 --> 00:23:14.700
The doctor just refers to them, being built of parts.

511
00:23:14.759 --> 00:23:15.960
You've got enough part...

512
00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:19.259
You've got parts in your spaceship to build more side, but he

513
00:23:19.259 --> 00:23:20.819
doesn't refer to them converting humans.

514
00:23:20.940 --> 00:23:22.980
That comes back in force in the 80s.

515
00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:24.960
But yeah, it's kind of forgotten after this.

516
00:23:25.019 --> 00:23:28.380
Well, even Earthshock do people to, you know, they're just sort of

517
00:23:28.380 --> 00:23:31.319
stupid robots in Earthshock with star data voices.

518
00:23:31.380 --> 00:23:34.319
I think they do talk about turning Ridgeway into a cyberman.

519
00:23:34.440 --> 00:23:34.980
They do.

520
00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:35.640
Oh okay.

521
00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:37.319
Terrible.

522
00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:40.980
But but here, you know, they're really, I think they're really

523
00:23:40.980 --> 00:23:45.420
quite terrifying and and their origin is sort of mythic and really

524
00:23:45.420 --> 00:23:45.960
interesting.

525
00:23:46.019 --> 00:23:49.500
Like they come from our twin planet that sort of wandered off into

526
00:23:49.500 --> 00:23:54.420
the universe and and now it's come back. you know, and that's

527
00:23:54.420 --> 00:23:57.660
something that Russell captures in rise of the sidemen by making

528
00:23:57.660 --> 00:24:00.960
them be from a parallel universe rather than just a sort of twin

529
00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:01.740
planet to earth.

530
00:24:01.799 --> 00:24:04.740
So they're us, you know, they're us in this.

531
00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:06.119
And they are in this story as well.

532
00:24:06.180 --> 00:24:06.960
They are humans.

533
00:24:07.019 --> 00:24:09.119
There are lost primal people.

534
00:24:09.299 --> 00:24:13.319
I love sand of his blog on this, and again, that's my go-to for

535
00:24:13.319 --> 00:24:13.740
this one.

536
00:24:13.859 --> 00:24:15.779
I won't go into it too much It's crazy.

537
00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:16.559
But he's right.

538
00:24:16.619 --> 00:24:20.880
It's really interesting British fantasy and what we now call

539
00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:26.160
fandom and riding was very much on this post-Aleistair Crowley

540
00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:31.559
darker, neo-pagan, right await tarot, stuff Anika Wills is in too

541
00:24:31.559 --> 00:24:35.400
as well that she references the whole, you know, this is the

542
00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:38.579
neosama of the burgeoning open mind thing.

543
00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:39.599
You had the beginning.

544
00:24:39.660 --> 00:24:42.900
Well, you know, there was the William Morris Revival and the Arts

545
00:24:42.900 --> 00:24:44.160
and Crafts thing in the 60s.

546
00:24:44.220 --> 00:24:47.880
But along with that, from the time that was, was a whole lot of

547
00:24:47.880 --> 00:24:51.420
writing on, I guess, different kinds of enlightenment and

548
00:24:51.420 --> 00:24:52.619
approaches to enlightenment.

549
00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:56.819
There's one, and Sandova mentions Kenneth Clark, who is a British

550
00:24:56.819 --> 00:25:02.039
writer, um, he died in 2011 and the inheritor of the Alistair

551
00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:05.339
Crowley Golden Dawn stuff, then.

552
00:25:05.400 --> 00:25:08.819
The necromancer that the Clive Barker stories use the same

553
00:25:08.819 --> 00:25:10.619
reference material.

554
00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:14.880
The idea basically is clipothic is the term.

555
00:25:14.940 --> 00:25:16.619
Yes, no, I've never even attempted to pronounce.

556
00:25:16.799 --> 00:25:18.000
I'm sure I'm wrong.

557
00:25:18.059 --> 00:25:19.740
Enlightenment through darkness.

558
00:25:19.799 --> 00:25:20.700
We should explain.

559
00:25:20.759 --> 00:25:23.519
There's a lovely line where the Sidemen said, we have gone, we

560
00:25:23.519 --> 00:25:25.920
have travelled. the universe and come back.

561
00:25:26.039 --> 00:25:29.640
They have passed through the darkest.

562
00:25:29.700 --> 00:25:31.619
It's kind of the Hades.

563
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:35.400
It's really a bit of seeing the underworld, isn't it?

564
00:25:35.460 --> 00:25:36.779
It's what's the character.

565
00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:38.759
Everyone goes to the underworld.

566
00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:39.420
Yeah.

567
00:25:39.480 --> 00:25:40.559
Yeah, yeah, Catarina.

568
00:25:40.859 --> 00:25:41.400
Yeah, yeah.

569
00:25:41.460 --> 00:25:42.720
The promised gland.

570
00:25:42.779 --> 00:25:44.700
Oh, H.P.

571
00:25:44.700 --> 00:25:47.099
Lovecraft, Edgar Allen, a lot of Lovecraft in this.

572
00:25:47.099 --> 00:25:50.339
Enlightenment is achievable through the passage of nightmares.

573
00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:52.200
Very Clyde Barker.

574
00:25:52.259 --> 00:25:53.700
Now, when you...

575
00:25:53.700 --> 00:25:57.059
I don't think that's actually a big leap because once you read

576
00:25:57.059 --> 00:25:57.900
saying it for saying.

577
00:25:57.960 --> 00:25:58.740
And you're looking at this.

578
00:25:58.799 --> 00:25:59.640
Yeah, that's what it is.

579
00:25:59.700 --> 00:26:03.059
They're us having gone through some horrible things and they

580
00:26:03.059 --> 00:26:04.920
actually do offer a version of enlightenment.

581
00:26:04.980 --> 00:26:08.279
But when they say when Polly says, but that's awful letting death

582
00:26:08.279 --> 00:26:09.839
and things happen, that's not nice.

583
00:26:09.900 --> 00:26:15.420
She's the voice of, you know, of sensibility and good sense and

584
00:26:15.420 --> 00:26:16.740
kindness as we see it.

585
00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:19.380
And then he looks at her and just passionately and says, you don't

586
00:26:19.380 --> 00:26:20.099
allow people to die.

587
00:26:20.099 --> 00:26:24.660
In suffering and all around the world every single day.

588
00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:26.039
You do nothing about it.

589
00:26:26.099 --> 00:26:27.180
Yeah you don't care about them.

590
00:26:27.240 --> 00:26:29.819
She loses that argument.

591
00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:30.839
Yeah, completely does.

592
00:26:30.900 --> 00:26:36.180
It's the biggest poke to how, you know, it's the maybe it's the

593
00:26:36.180 --> 00:26:40.440
1st gruly post-colonial moment in the show. when it says, your

594
00:26:40.440 --> 00:26:41.460
society doesn't function.

595
00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:43.680
And that's why the cybermen are so successful in this because

596
00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:45.359
they're not evil.

597
00:26:45.420 --> 00:26:47.640
No, they are.

598
00:26:47.700 --> 00:26:48.779
They're alternative.

599
00:26:48.839 --> 00:26:51.539
They are ultimate pragmatists.

600
00:26:52.019 --> 00:26:56.160
Whereas, you know, later on, the sidemen would just become evil

601
00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:57.420
you know, the wheel in space.

602
00:26:57.480 --> 00:27:02.579
They're attacking the space station with asteroids so they can get

603
00:27:02.579 --> 00:27:03.720
Earth's mineral wealth.

604
00:27:03.779 --> 00:27:07.079
Well, just land somewhere and get Earth's mineral wealth, which is

605
00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:08.220
what the cybermen now would do.

606
00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:09.960
They just land and say, we are taking this goal.

607
00:27:10.019 --> 00:27:10.559
Thank you.

608
00:27:10.619 --> 00:27:12.180
No one says delete in this.

609
00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:13.799
They're not going to kill people.

610
00:27:13.859 --> 00:27:15.119
They're going to better them.

611
00:27:15.180 --> 00:27:20.579
Yeah, they're the most horrible coal to us way, possibly imagine.

612
00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:23.579
It really only achieves this again with Earth Shock, doesn't it?

613
00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:27.059
Until the new series when there's that nice line with where Peter

614
00:27:27.059 --> 00:27:30.839
says, you know, a lovely meal, fragrant posies and hitting your

615
00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:31.680
bum wet on the grass.

616
00:27:31.740 --> 00:27:33.420
That's a well prepared meal.

617
00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:36.119
Yes, well prepared, bum wetting on the grass, that kind of thing.

618
00:27:36.180 --> 00:27:39.960
But when we do get those speeches, and it is a sort of an

619
00:27:39.960 --> 00:27:43.200
obligatory thing in a side man story where you talk about what

620
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:46.200
they've given up by giving up their emotions, there are some

621
00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:47.339
corners of the universe.

622
00:27:47.460 --> 00:27:50.759
The cybermen lose that argument. you know what I mean?

623
00:27:50.819 --> 00:27:54.660
In a sense, where here they win. you know, they're right.

624
00:27:54.779 --> 00:27:57.779
And so I think they're sort of terrifying for that.

625
00:27:57.839 --> 00:28:00.539
And look, I mean, they degenerate into villains by the time of

626
00:28:00.539 --> 00:28:04.140
episode for, you know, they're sort of fairly standard.

627
00:28:04.259 --> 00:28:08.279
Yeah, they're taking the doctor and Polly as prisoners because

628
00:28:08.279 --> 00:28:10.140
it's the doctor and Polly.

629
00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:10.680
Yeah.

630
00:28:10.740 --> 00:28:13.920
But I think, I mean, I think there's a stack going on even apart

631
00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:14.940
from the cybermen.

632
00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:19.920
So I read sort of running through corridors account of this and

633
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:24.359
they talk about the fact that in episodes 2 and Thor, you've got

634
00:28:24.359 --> 00:28:26.640
the emotionless cybermen in charge of the bass.

635
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:29.819
And one thing we haven't mentioned is this is really the 1st base

636
00:28:29.819 --> 00:28:31.920
under siege story.

637
00:28:31.980 --> 00:28:37.200
And that's a genre that's going to become exclusively the mode, the

638
00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:40.440
Doctor Who operates in pretty much for the next few years.

639
00:28:40.500 --> 00:28:45.960
But then in episode three, the peril is the over-emotional um

640
00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:49.380
General Cutler who's frightened uh, for his son.

641
00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:52.619
And, you know, he's the one who holds out the Z bomb.

642
00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:54.359
He's the one who threatens life on earth.

643
00:28:54.420 --> 00:28:56.579
He's the one who is going to kill the cyberman.

644
00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:01.740
And so we do get to see in a sense that the cybermen have a point

645
00:29:01.740 --> 00:29:05.759
about human emotions, that they're, you know, that they're

646
00:29:05.759 --> 00:29:09.240
dangerous and destructive and actually a real problem.

647
00:29:09.299 --> 00:29:12.539
And it's just demonstrated to you all throughout episode three.

648
00:29:12.599 --> 00:29:14.339
And I think that's sort of terrifically good.

649
00:29:14.759 --> 00:29:20.759
Another thing that's really great about this basis, and so soon

650
00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:27.720
after the questionable racial politics of season three, we have a

651
00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:32.160
multicultural cast in charge of the base, a multicultural cast in

652
00:29:32.160 --> 00:29:34.140
the UN office.

653
00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:36.900
Now, we still have a problem in terms of sexual equality.

654
00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:38.940
Like there are no women.

655
00:29:38.940 --> 00:29:40.680
There are no women on the military base.

656
00:29:40.740 --> 00:29:42.539
There are women in Wigner's office.

657
00:29:42.599 --> 00:29:45.900
You know, they're still in a subservient position, but they're in

658
00:29:45.900 --> 00:29:47.160
an important position at the UN.

659
00:29:47.220 --> 00:29:51.599
There is definitely worth noting that within a couple of months.

660
00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:57.180
It seems like in his lawyers come in and maybe seen some of the

661
00:29:57.180 --> 00:30:02.460
really quite horrible racial stuff that was in that season and

662
00:30:02.460 --> 00:30:03.660
went, no, I'm going to do better.

663
00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:08.819
We had Jamaica in the smugglers, who's just another pirate. you

664
00:30:08.819 --> 00:30:09.180
know what I mean?

665
00:30:09.240 --> 00:30:14.220
Yeah, exactly. you know, like... you know, his race is mentioned

666
00:30:14.220 --> 00:30:15.420
as it would have been at that time.

667
00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:19.799
But, yeah, he's, unlike, say, the monoids, he's not regarded as

668
00:30:19.799 --> 00:30:20.880
stupid because he's black.

669
00:30:20.940 --> 00:30:21.180
No.

670
00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:25.500
And then you get this, you get the Australian and the American

671
00:30:25.500 --> 00:30:29.339
astronaut, you know, in Zeus 4, Zeus 4.

672
00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:32.279
And what is it about Australian astronauts in British productions

673
00:30:32.279 --> 00:30:33.240
being a bit crap.

674
00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:36.359
I mean, look at Alan Carter in space 1990.

675
00:30:36.359 --> 00:30:37.500
He's great.

676
00:30:37.559 --> 00:30:38.519
Shut up.

677
00:30:38.579 --> 00:30:40.559
He had 2 options in that 1st episode.

678
00:30:40.619 --> 00:30:42.000
Oh, the moon's flying away.

679
00:30:42.059 --> 00:30:45.359
Do I fly back to Earth or do I go to the moon with my friends and

680
00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:46.140
possibly get killed?

681
00:30:46.200 --> 00:30:48.180
I'll go to the moon, idiot.

682
00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:49.859
He got a year's workout of it.

683
00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:51.480
And you're in a bit.

684
00:30:51.539 --> 00:30:52.079
Yeah, yeah.

685
00:30:52.140 --> 00:30:53.339
Anyway.

686
00:30:53.400 --> 00:30:54.599
Sorry, tangent.

687
00:30:54.660 --> 00:30:59.279
And I think the other thing too that's overlooked is that Polly

688
00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:02.700
actually has a pretty significant role in this.

689
00:31:02.759 --> 00:31:06.420
And you know, we do talk about the sort of lamentable sexual

690
00:31:06.420 --> 00:31:07.500
politics of the 60s.

691
00:31:07.619 --> 00:31:11.700
But Polly is the one who kind of in episode three.

692
00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:13.980
She's really the one who starts the plan.

693
00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:16.319
You know, they're going to disobey Cutler.

694
00:31:16.380 --> 00:31:18.180
Cutler's going to blow up the Z bomb.

695
00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:21.119
Yeah, you know, we've gone from the A bomb to the H bomb, but

696
00:31:21.119 --> 00:31:22.259
we're now in the near future.

697
00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:23.339
It's 1986.

698
00:31:24.359 --> 00:31:26.039
Solar system level category.

699
00:31:26.099 --> 00:31:29.160
We've gone through all of the letters of the alphabet as far as

700
00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:31.259
bombs are concerned, and we're up to the Z bomb.

701
00:31:31.319 --> 00:31:35.940
And she's the one who really initiates the plan to kind of subvert

702
00:31:35.940 --> 00:31:37.859
Cutler's orders there.

703
00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:39.960
But it does kind of come back to that thing.

704
00:31:40.019 --> 00:31:44.039
I was talking about with the Peter Cushing films, which is it

705
00:31:44.039 --> 00:31:46.140
seems like you can only have one strong woman per script.

706
00:31:46.140 --> 00:31:48.660
Or one woman, in fact, in this case.

707
00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:52.019
Well, you know, as I say, there are, yeah, one sort of major

708
00:31:52.019 --> 00:31:54.180
character woman per script.

709
00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:55.200
More antecedents.

710
00:31:55.259 --> 00:31:58.259
This is again closest to Kubrick than any other film I can think

711
00:31:58.259 --> 00:31:58.559
of.

712
00:31:58.619 --> 00:32:02.220
This is strange, love, because Cutler is Jack D. Ripper, isn't

713
00:32:02.220 --> 00:32:02.400
he?

714
00:32:02.460 --> 00:32:04.980
Even with the overacting in the ham acting and that whole...

715
00:32:04.980 --> 00:32:07.740
That whole South Pacific.

716
00:32:07.799 --> 00:32:09.000
You know?

717
00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:12.779
Oh, boy, Golly Gee, and...

718
00:32:12.779 --> 00:32:14.279
That's his relaxing.

719
00:32:14.339 --> 00:32:15.660
There ain't nothing like a dame.

720
00:32:15.779 --> 00:32:17.759
He's actually...

721
00:32:17.819 --> 00:32:19.259
Yeah, because he shows up in Blake 7.

722
00:32:19.259 --> 00:32:20.819
He does too, doesn't he?

723
00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:23.279
And I thought again, he was just reprising the role.

724
00:32:23.339 --> 00:32:26.039
He's Bran Foster with extra hair.

725
00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:28.079
And extra rough.

726
00:32:28.140 --> 00:32:29.220
It's not actually that bad.

727
00:32:29.279 --> 00:32:31.559
He has some good moments, especially with, well, there's very few

728
00:32:31.559 --> 00:32:32.460
with Billy, aren't there?

729
00:32:32.519 --> 00:32:33.480
But there's little...

730
00:32:33.539 --> 00:32:36.000
Well, you see, I mean, we should talk about, we should talk about

731
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:37.200
what happens to Hartnell.

732
00:32:37.259 --> 00:32:42.420
I've just read the um, the novelisation, uh, which is called

733
00:32:42.420 --> 00:32:45.539
Doctor Who in the 10th Planet, bizarrely enough, and it is by

734
00:32:45.539 --> 00:32:48.480
Jerry Davis, who wrote the script.

735
00:32:48.539 --> 00:32:54.720
And in it, Hartnell does actually disappear in episode three, but

736
00:32:54.720 --> 00:32:55.559
not for all of it.

737
00:32:55.619 --> 00:32:59.640
So the story is that Hartnell is too sick to appear in episode

738
00:32:59.640 --> 00:33:00.240
three.

739
00:33:00.299 --> 00:33:02.339
We don't have episode four.

740
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:06.720
So our last, the last time we get to see William Hartnell as the

741
00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:09.660
doctor until...

742
00:33:09.720 --> 00:33:15.539
Well, yeah, yeah, and until the 3 doctors, sadly, is episode two.

743
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:17.460
And he's on the base.

744
00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:18.839
It's not really his thing.

745
00:33:18.900 --> 00:33:21.359
This does seem like he's a bit out of place here.

746
00:33:21.420 --> 00:33:23.460
There's lots of Americans and shouting and stuff.

747
00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:27.180
But he still gives a really great form, I think.

748
00:33:27.240 --> 00:33:29.819
He keeps being called pops and stuff.

749
00:33:29.880 --> 00:33:32.700
But again, if you sort of look at the direction of it, a lot of

750
00:33:32.700 --> 00:33:35.519
time he sat down, like they found him in a nice comfy chair as

751
00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:38.700
soon as he walks in, but he commands the set from that chair.

752
00:33:38.759 --> 00:33:44.220
Like, he's a little bit modern Doctor Who in that he sees he kind

753
00:33:44.220 --> 00:33:46.920
of listens to what's coming up and writes down what they're going

754
00:33:46.920 --> 00:33:49.140
to see before they see it because he knows.

755
00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:50.819
It's very mass, isn't it?

756
00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:51.539
Isn't it?

757
00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:53.039
Well, because that's the other thing too.

758
00:33:53.099 --> 00:33:55.259
It's the 1st time in the near future.

759
00:33:55.319 --> 00:33:59.220
You know, like it's set 30 years after the broadcast.

760
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:01.140
Well, 2020.

761
00:34:01.259 --> 00:34:03.359
I can't do any maths at all. can I?

762
00:34:03.420 --> 00:34:04.380
It's said 20 years.

763
00:34:04.440 --> 00:34:08.940
So, you know, people watching it in 1966 could expect to be alive

764
00:34:08.940 --> 00:34:10.380
in 1986.

765
00:34:10.739 --> 00:34:13.860
The novelisation sets it in 2000.

766
00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:16.619
Just what I thought the book was 86.

767
00:34:16.860 --> 00:34:18.360
No, the book says 2000.

768
00:34:18.539 --> 00:34:22.260
And the novelisation of Power of the Daleks, which picks up, sets

769
00:34:22.260 --> 00:34:23.159
it in 1996.

770
00:34:23.340 --> 00:34:25.860
You thought unit dating was bad dealers.

771
00:34:25.980 --> 00:34:30.599
So the doctor clearly knows the future history of Earth.

772
00:34:30.659 --> 00:34:33.719
And so he writes down that you're about to see a mysterious

773
00:34:33.719 --> 00:34:34.079
planet.

774
00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:39.420
And he seems to know, too, that he just says, I mean, they don't

775
00:34:39.420 --> 00:34:42.000
have to do anything to resolve the situation except wait and

776
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:44.219
prevent Cutler from Z bombing everyone.

777
00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:47.519
This is the 1st time we've had a future moment that's an

778
00:34:47.519 --> 00:34:49.320
intractable point, fixed point in time.

779
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:50.579
We've had the Aztecs.

780
00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:52.199
We've had that you cannot interfere with history.

781
00:34:52.260 --> 00:34:53.639
Finally, we've got a point.

782
00:34:53.699 --> 00:34:57.239
Yeah, history occurs all over the You can't interfere in 1986

783
00:34:57.239 --> 00:34:58.920
because it's going to will have happened.

784
00:34:58.980 --> 00:34:59.880
Yes.

785
00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:04.320
So with grammatic consequences.

786
00:35:04.679 --> 00:35:07.739
Serious grammatical consequences.

787
00:35:07.800 --> 00:35:11.280
So, um, and so he disappears for episode three, and there's

788
00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:15.059
clearly lines that, you know, he, he should have in episode 3

789
00:35:15.059 --> 00:35:19.500
being able to say, all we need to do is wait, uh, and the cybern

790
00:35:19.500 --> 00:35:22.559
will overload themselves and mombas will explode, and as usual

791
00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:26.280
when uh, mones explodes, all of the sidemen will be dead, just

792
00:35:26.280 --> 00:35:31.440
that tiresome, just because that helps us get out of the plot

793
00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:32.099
quicker.

794
00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:35.519
Stephen Moffatt uses it in deep breath, doesn't he, where the half

795
00:35:35.219 --> 00:35:37.559
faced man gets killed and all the other clockwork droids

796
00:35:37.559 --> 00:35:38.579
deactivate themselves?

797
00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:41.579
conveniently so we don't have to go around and mop them up at the

798
00:35:41.579 --> 00:35:41.760
end.

799
00:35:41.940 --> 00:35:46.679
And he would have delivered that, but he's taking the...

800
00:35:46.739 --> 00:35:49.800
I just assumed he was had a tantrum and didn't want to come in.

801
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:55.739
According to the various stories I've heard, including Anika Wills

802
00:35:55.739 --> 00:35:58.559
and production people and whatnot.

803
00:35:58.619 --> 00:36:02.039
He was actually taken ill shortly after the 2nd episode filmed, or

804
00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:04.679
possibly during the filming of the 2nd episode, and his doctor

805
00:36:04.679 --> 00:36:06.960
said he cannot come in.

806
00:36:07.019 --> 00:36:10.320
They kind of looked at the script where he wasn't really involved

807
00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:11.099
that much anyway.

808
00:36:11.159 --> 00:36:13.440
Because he's just saying, no, you just got to sit around and

809
00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:13.679
wait.

810
00:36:13.739 --> 00:36:17.159
So they just got Ben at one point to say, the doctor said, da, da

811
00:36:17.159 --> 00:36:17.460
da.

812
00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:20.400
And then it's just some guy in a wig with his back to the camera

813
00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:22.019
plays the doctor for that episode.

814
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:23.460
Is it open Warwick again?

815
00:36:23.579 --> 00:36:24.119
I wish it was.

816
00:36:24.179 --> 00:36:26.880
I do hope it is because Edmund Warwick deserves a send off as

817
00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:27.000
well.

818
00:36:27.059 --> 00:36:27.780
He does.

819
00:36:28.679 --> 00:36:32.579
And so and so we get this sort of resolution and stuff.

820
00:36:32.699 --> 00:36:36.539
I mean, the novelisation kind of opens with the doctor being weird

821
00:36:36.539 --> 00:36:39.539
and distracted and a little bit kind of tired and that kind of

822
00:36:39.539 --> 00:36:43.920
thing, but there actually isn't really that much lead up to it at

823
00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:44.219
all.

824
00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:48.480
And it's almost as if the absence from episode 3 is a kind of

825
00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:51.900
inadvertently foreshadows what's going to happen.

826
00:36:51.960 --> 00:36:56.699
But in fact, you know, it seems to happen for no reason and with

827
00:36:56.699 --> 00:36:58.199
very little fanfare.

828
00:36:58.260 --> 00:37:01.380
And I think that this is going to be a theme of our discussion, you

829
00:37:01.380 --> 00:37:04.440
know, of the rest of this story, but also a power for Daleks, which

830
00:37:04.440 --> 00:37:10.679
is how little fanfare, how little preparation, how little apology

831
00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:14.639
there is for this giant, incredible move that they're about to

832
00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:19.440
take, which is to recast the leading man, which is just utterly

833
00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:22.619
weird and utterly unprecedented, I think.

834
00:37:22.860 --> 00:37:26.820
And they don't think they need to explain it.

835
00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:28.739
They don't think they need to lead up to it.

836
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:31.679
They make it mysterious and off putting.

837
00:37:31.739 --> 00:37:34.800
And if you compare it to the 1st regeneration that we see in the

838
00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:38.519
new series, where you've got Christopher Eccleston spending 2 or 3

839
00:37:38.519 --> 00:37:41.940
minutes carefully explaining it to Billy Piper so that the

840
00:37:41.940 --> 00:37:44.579
audience at home aren't alienated from it.

841
00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:46.860
We get nothing like that at all here.

842
00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:51.239
See, I do have a theory on that, which is, you know, they've been

843
00:37:51.239 --> 00:37:53.340
looking for a way to replace Billy for about 6 months.

844
00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:58.619
And they've hit on this way, but nothing like this has ever been

845
00:37:58.619 --> 00:38:01.019
done on television before.

846
00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:04.860
I think they didn't highlight it because they thought the more

847
00:38:04.860 --> 00:38:06.599
that we highlight it, the more obvious it will be.

848
00:38:06.659 --> 00:38:11.219
If we make it as smooth as it possibly can be, you know, we can't

849
00:38:11.219 --> 00:38:15.059
just put another guy in his wig because they already discounted

850
00:38:15.059 --> 00:38:15.300
that.

851
00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:18.239
So we need to have a new person in there, but let's make it so

852
00:38:18.239 --> 00:38:21.840
that the audience have to figure it out at the same time as the

853
00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:24.179
characters rather than having it fed to them.

854
00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:25.440
Intelligent way of doing.

855
00:38:25.500 --> 00:38:28.019
They chillax while keeping warm.

856
00:38:28.260 --> 00:38:29.699
Thank you.

857
00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:30.119
It's good.

858
00:38:30.179 --> 00:38:30.599
Keep warm.

859
00:38:31.019 --> 00:38:34.739
But yeah, I think the whole thing of not drawing attention to it

860
00:38:34.739 --> 00:38:39.420
is so is so that they don't have to explain it.

861
00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:43.139
And because they're kind of like, this is going to be jarring

862
00:38:43.139 --> 00:38:43.739
enough as it is.

863
00:38:43.800 --> 00:38:45.840
Let's make it a smoother toss.

864
00:38:45.900 --> 00:38:48.239
Well, I mean, they don't have an explanation, and the idea that

865
00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:51.420
this is the 1st regeneration is completely wrong, because, I mean

866
00:38:51.420 --> 00:38:55.260
the 2nd time when he turns into pert, it's the time laws, changes

867
00:38:55.260 --> 00:38:58.079
appear, and it's at no point do we get the word regeneration at

868
00:38:58.079 --> 00:38:58.320
the time.

869
00:38:58.559 --> 00:39:02.280
And so the regeneration's only really invented in the 1970s for

870
00:39:02.280 --> 00:39:03.480
Planet of the Spiders.

871
00:39:03.539 --> 00:39:04.619
So that's not what's happening.

872
00:39:04.679 --> 00:39:06.300
Buddhist term that.

873
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:08.880
Yeah, yeah, that's why the term regeneration gets used.

874
00:39:08.940 --> 00:39:13.260
But, um, I mean, you know, like and interpreting this in the light

875
00:39:13.260 --> 00:39:14.519
of future events, that's fine.

876
00:39:14.579 --> 00:39:15.420
It's a regeneration.

877
00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:18.239
You don't have to go all Doctor Who magazine and say, it's a

878
00:39:18.239 --> 00:39:20.340
rejuvenation and it's really just the same person.

879
00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:23.460
You know, that's kind of crazy in the light of what's happened

880
00:39:23.460 --> 00:39:24.059
since.

881
00:39:24.119 --> 00:39:27.780
But just the fact that they don't explain it, they don't lead up

882
00:39:27.780 --> 00:39:28.139
to it.

883
00:39:28.199 --> 00:39:30.780
And as we're going to see, they do nothing to kind of smooth the

884
00:39:30.780 --> 00:39:34.139
transition in the next story, I think is really remarkable.

885
00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:40.019
Does anyone want to say a few words about the fact that we're now

886
00:39:40.019 --> 00:39:41.159
leaving Hartnor behind?

887
00:39:41.280 --> 00:39:42.360
How do we feel?

888
00:39:42.420 --> 00:39:45.719
I have far too much to say, I know, it's all just...

889
00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:46.920
Thank you, Billy.

890
00:39:46.980 --> 00:39:48.539
He is wonderful.

891
00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:53.639
It is that thing too, where when we were kids, he was the grumpy

892
00:39:53.639 --> 00:39:53.880
one.

893
00:39:53.940 --> 00:39:54.719
Do you know what I mean?

894
00:39:54.780 --> 00:39:57.420
We hadn't seen him, he was irascible and all that sort of thing.

895
00:39:57.480 --> 00:39:59.219
But we knew him through the Target books.

896
00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:01.619
I never read the ones with Harmony.

897
00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:02.460
Oh, didn't she?

898
00:40:02.460 --> 00:40:03.659
See, they were my favourites.

899
00:40:03.719 --> 00:40:06.719
Maybe that is why I just quietly say he's still my favourite

900
00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:07.440
doctor.

901
00:40:07.500 --> 00:40:12.239
And he's the only person to play the doctor rather than a doctor.

902
00:40:12.300 --> 00:40:14.340
And he's just wonderful.

903
00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:15.719
He's so lovely.

904
00:40:15.780 --> 00:40:17.519
He's so terribly sweet.

905
00:40:17.639 --> 00:40:23.099
A French mine posted on Facebook, you know, he'd just seen the 5

906
00:40:23.099 --> 00:40:26.219
doctors and was going, was Richard Herndel was the 1st doctor

907
00:40:26.219 --> 00:40:27.239
really liked that?

908
00:40:27.300 --> 00:40:28.260
He just seems horrible.

909
00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:31.199
And he said, no, he's awfully sweet.

910
00:40:31.260 --> 00:40:36.659
He's cuddly and lovely and funny and, you know, terribly human and

911
00:40:36.659 --> 00:40:37.019
things.

912
00:40:37.079 --> 00:40:38.760
I think he's terrific.

913
00:40:38.820 --> 00:40:43.739
You know, it's been a great, you know, like a great 3 years for

914
00:40:43.739 --> 00:40:45.480
all the bitching that we've done about it.

915
00:40:45.539 --> 00:40:47.340
And he's just a great doctor.

916
00:40:47.460 --> 00:40:52.199
He's constantly surprising. in a role that is, by its very nature

917
00:40:52.199 --> 00:40:56.880
self-limiting and, you know, or really auto program is just there

918
00:40:56.880 --> 00:41:01.019
in the way that Cushing didn't really make it stretch any

919
00:41:01.019 --> 00:41:01.619
further.

920
00:41:01.679 --> 00:41:03.119
Yeah, little moments that were terribly cool.

921
00:41:03.179 --> 00:41:04.440
Okay, you didn't have very long to do it.

922
00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:07.860
But in every scene, Billy will find something, a slight twist, a

923
00:41:07.860 --> 00:41:10.679
slightly new way of doing it, something to surprise the viewer and

924
00:41:10.679 --> 00:41:12.539
keep us, keep us in there with him.

925
00:41:12.539 --> 00:41:14.219
He has lots of reasons I love him.

926
00:41:14.280 --> 00:41:19.079
And what's, what's really amazing about him is he has this

927
00:41:19.079 --> 00:41:20.219
mystique around him.

928
00:41:20.699 --> 00:41:23.400
Even more so than Patrick Trouton, who was notoriously very

929
00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:27.000
private about how he played the role until later in his life when

930
00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:27.840
he was looking back on it.

931
00:41:27.960 --> 00:41:32.219
Hartnell didn't get that later opportunity to talk about Doctor

932
00:41:32.219 --> 00:41:32.460
Who.

933
00:41:32.519 --> 00:41:37.139
It's only recently that a TV interview has been unearthed after he

934
00:41:37.139 --> 00:41:37.980
finished the role.

935
00:41:38.039 --> 00:41:40.139
And we watched that before the podcast.

936
00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:43.199
And what's amazing about it is there's always been this debate in

937
00:41:43.199 --> 00:41:49.199
fandom about Hartnell, like, was he that forgetful or were the hms

938
00:41:49.199 --> 00:41:51.480
and the Rs and the hesitations, were they character?

939
00:41:51.539 --> 00:41:54.780
And you see this interview when, you know, his illness has really

940
00:41:54.780 --> 00:41:59.099
taken hold according to the time frame and he is focussed.

941
00:41:59.159 --> 00:42:00.000
He is lucid.

942
00:42:00.059 --> 00:42:05.639
He is not hesitating in what he is saying and he is completely

943
00:42:05.639 --> 00:42:10.920
different. from his character as the doctor and completely

944
00:42:10.920 --> 00:42:11.639
vulnerable.

945
00:42:11.699 --> 00:42:17.219
In a way, that interview answers that question, but it throws up

946
00:42:17.219 --> 00:42:19.139
so many other questions about him as well.

947
00:42:19.260 --> 00:42:22.739
And I think that's a really good place to leave him because he's

948
00:42:22.739 --> 00:42:25.079
the original and still the most mysterious.

949
00:42:25.139 --> 00:42:26.579
Yeah, who is?

950
00:42:26.639 --> 00:42:27.360
God bless him.

951
00:42:27.420 --> 00:42:30.000
Yeah, we love you, Ben. you.

952
00:42:34.139 --> 00:42:38.579
Out with the old and in with the new, it's time to welcome Patrick

953
00:42:38.579 --> 00:42:40.860
Troughton with Power of the Daleks.

954
00:42:40.920 --> 00:42:46.199
And this one was mine, and I've been saying for a few podcasts now

955
00:42:46.199 --> 00:42:49.380
but I've been looking forward to this one because when Rod and I

956
00:42:49.380 --> 00:42:52.320
were making our way through and watching them, we really didn't

957
00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:54.179
think much of this one.

958
00:42:54.239 --> 00:42:59.400
But on my recent trip to the US, I hate watching videos on my

959
00:42:59.400 --> 00:43:01.679
iPhone, so I didn't take the recons on my phone.

960
00:43:01.739 --> 00:43:03.960
I took the John Peel novelisation.

961
00:43:04.019 --> 00:43:08.280
Which, um, it's it's very, Richard's making a face.

962
00:43:08.340 --> 00:43:09.960
It's very, it's very interesting.

963
00:43:10.019 --> 00:43:15.960
For a start, it was towards the end of, actually, it was after

964
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:17.340
really, the target novels.

965
00:43:17.400 --> 00:43:19.260
It was when Virgin had become fully established.

966
00:43:19.320 --> 00:43:23.159
So the novelisations of Power of the Daleks and Evil of the Daleks

967
00:43:23.159 --> 00:43:26.159
are almost double length compared to Target novels.

968
00:43:26.280 --> 00:43:30.480
So the 1st couple of chapters actually retells about the last 10

969
00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:36.300
minutes of the 10th planet from a 2nd person point of view with

970
00:43:36.300 --> 00:43:37.800
Ben as the 2nd person.

971
00:43:37.860 --> 00:43:42.000
So it's not Ben saying I did this, I did that, but it is like a

972
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:45.119
narrator following Ben and telling us what Ben's thinking and what

973
00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:45.420
have you.

974
00:43:45.480 --> 00:43:48.000
It's Ben looking for the doctor and Polly in the ship.

975
00:43:48.059 --> 00:43:53.940
Now, John Peel has long been regarded as a writer who does

976
00:43:53.940 --> 00:43:55.260
something called fan wank.

977
00:43:56.460 --> 00:44:01.739
Now, what that means is sort of just throwing in bits of

978
00:44:01.739 --> 00:44:06.119
continuity and really this book is no exception because after the

979
00:44:06.119 --> 00:44:10.260
strange old man and his 2 young friends disappear in the blue box

980
00:44:10.260 --> 00:44:16.380
a team from unit turns up in the year 1996 to Snowcat base to mop

981
00:44:16.380 --> 00:44:23.099
it up, led by Lieutenant Benton, Professor Alison Williams. and

982
00:44:23.099 --> 00:44:25.019
their and Eunice.

983
00:44:25.139 --> 00:44:27.599
Unis cried, crotcheting, alert, robot dog friend.

984
00:44:27.659 --> 00:44:28.920
No, not quite.

985
00:44:28.980 --> 00:44:31.679
But he could have been there because they're accompanied by units

986
00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:34.079
official chronicler Sarah Jane Smith.

987
00:44:34.139 --> 00:44:35.099
Oh, please.

988
00:44:35.099 --> 00:44:38.699
Now, the thing is, it's a bit like Hitchhiker's a Guide to the

989
00:44:38.699 --> 00:44:40.619
Galaxy, because after that, the book settles down and actually

990
00:44:40.619 --> 00:44:42.059
starts telling you things you need to know.

991
00:44:42.179 --> 00:44:47.579
And the book has given me a new appreciation of the story because

992
00:44:47.579 --> 00:44:50.579
my problem with the story before watching the reconstruction is I

993
00:44:50.579 --> 00:44:52.739
didn't understand why the rebels were rebelling.

994
00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:57.960
But reading the book and listening to the audio again just by

995
00:44:57.960 --> 00:45:03.239
itself helped me realise the sort of subtext and cleverness of the

996
00:45:03.239 --> 00:45:06.000
title, which I know you're going to touch on later, Nathan.

997
00:45:06.119 --> 00:45:10.079
But something in particular that I loved about it is because

998
00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:11.519
you've got 2 companions.

999
00:45:12.179 --> 00:45:16.139
One accepts him as the doctor.

1000
00:45:16.679 --> 00:45:20.460
Not straight away, but you know, within a couple of scenes because

1001
00:45:20.460 --> 00:45:24.719
Polly just kind of goes, well, look, you know, he can't be anyone

1002
00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:25.079
else.

1003
00:45:25.139 --> 00:45:28.559
We saw the cloak go over the doctor's face.

1004
00:45:28.619 --> 00:45:30.059
It came off his face.

1005
00:45:30.119 --> 00:45:36.179
He's the doctor, whereas Ben... is like the viewer who doesn't

1006
00:45:36.179 --> 00:45:37.260
immediately accept it.

1007
00:45:37.320 --> 00:45:41.099
And we sort of have that again with the Peter Capaldi, um

1008
00:45:41.099 --> 00:45:44.039
regeneration and 1st episode where he has to convince Clara and

1009
00:45:44.039 --> 00:45:44.699
thus the audience.

1010
00:45:44.760 --> 00:45:47.820
I think it's better handled here because you have the 2

1011
00:45:47.820 --> 00:45:49.679
perspectives.

1012
00:45:49.739 --> 00:45:51.480
Yeah, and they're presumably there.

1013
00:45:51.599 --> 00:45:54.300
It's the same as the viewers at home.

1014
00:45:54.360 --> 00:45:57.000
Like, for all we said about it, not being explained.

1015
00:45:57.059 --> 00:45:58.380
It is aggressively not explained.

1016
00:45:58.440 --> 00:46:01.739
You know, like the doctor refuses to answer their questions.

1017
00:46:01.800 --> 00:46:03.900
He's annoying on the recorder.

1018
00:46:03.960 --> 00:46:07.619
He talks about Bill Hartnell in the 3rd person.

1019
00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:10.199
You know, the doctor was a great collector, you know, all this

1020
00:46:10.199 --> 00:46:10.739
sort of thing.

1021
00:46:10.800 --> 00:46:14.880
Like, he really is quite off putting and, you know, deliberately

1022
00:46:14.880 --> 00:46:17.639
goes out of his way to kind of put you offside.

1023
00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:22.019
Which makes him sinister because he's very, very friendly, but

1024
00:46:22.019 --> 00:46:23.579
he's hiding something.

1025
00:46:24.119 --> 00:46:27.360
And then hiding what's happened to everyone's grandad.

1026
00:46:27.480 --> 00:46:30.179
And then, of course, the 1st thing he does, he steps out onto the

1027
00:46:30.179 --> 00:46:34.019
planet Vulcan and he impersonates a dead man.

1028
00:46:34.079 --> 00:46:37.079
He steps into his shoes and pretends to be that dead man.

1029
00:46:37.139 --> 00:46:39.420
Yeah, which is so straight away.

1030
00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:40.139
Do you know what I mean?

1031
00:46:40.199 --> 00:46:41.280
He's unreliable.

1032
00:46:41.340 --> 00:46:44.699
He's impersonating someone, someone who's died.

1033
00:46:44.760 --> 00:46:51.780
And so they do deliberately try and put you off, I think. a little

1034
00:46:51.780 --> 00:46:52.019
bit.

1035
00:46:52.079 --> 00:46:54.840
I think the power of the Daleks is necessary.

1036
00:46:54.900 --> 00:46:57.119
And I think the power of Daleks is something brilliant that

1037
00:46:57.119 --> 00:46:58.019
Whittaker does.

1038
00:46:58.079 --> 00:47:01.679
And what's happened with the Daleks under Terry Nation is that

1039
00:47:01.679 --> 00:47:06.300
we've started with the Daleks versus humans in a science fiction

1040
00:47:06.300 --> 00:47:06.659
setting.

1041
00:47:07.920 --> 00:47:10.619
And they're sort of, they're not humans as such, but they're sort

1042
00:47:10.619 --> 00:47:11.219
of human-ish.

1043
00:47:11.280 --> 00:47:14.039
Yeah, and they're science fiction humans.

1044
00:47:14.099 --> 00:47:14.760
You know, they're stupid.

1045
00:47:14.820 --> 00:47:19.260
And then you've got the Daleks invading Earth, and then you've got

1046
00:47:19.260 --> 00:47:21.480
the Daleks chasing the doctor through time and threatening to

1047
00:47:21.480 --> 00:47:22.679
become the star of the program.

1048
00:47:22.739 --> 00:47:25.860
And then you've got the Daleks are going to destroy the galaxy.

1049
00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:26.579
Do you know what I mean?

1050
00:47:26.639 --> 00:47:30.059
And each time, it's got bigger scale and higher concept and all

1051
00:47:30.059 --> 00:47:30.719
that sort of thing.

1052
00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:32.099
And what Whittaker does here.

1053
00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:34.440
This he takes it right back to the beginning.

1054
00:47:34.500 --> 00:47:35.639
So we're in a city.

1055
00:47:35.699 --> 00:47:38.940
It's somewhere in the future, but we don't know when, you know

1056
00:47:38.940 --> 00:47:41.340
despite what John Peel might say.

1057
00:47:41.460 --> 00:47:44.880
He probably gives, you know, their address and their geolocation

1058
00:47:44.880 --> 00:47:45.539
and the gear.

1059
00:47:45.599 --> 00:47:46.800
Surprisingly he didn't.

1060
00:47:46.860 --> 00:47:49.800
Okay, so it's very deliberately kept vague.

1061
00:47:49.860 --> 00:47:55.380
And we have humans versus Daleks, but this time they're not stupid

1062
00:47:55.380 --> 00:47:58.380
science fiction humans with holes in their clothes or lots of

1063
00:47:58.380 --> 00:47:58.739
makeup.

1064
00:47:58.800 --> 00:48:00.179
They're real people.

1065
00:48:00.179 --> 00:48:01.500
With David Whitaker.

1066
00:48:01.559 --> 00:48:03.719
Yeah, with politics and all of that sort of thing.

1067
00:48:03.780 --> 00:48:07.260
There's a whole the B story is even more interesting to me than

1068
00:48:07.260 --> 00:48:08.159
the A story.

1069
00:48:08.219 --> 00:48:11.400
The politics of the colony are really, really great.

1070
00:48:11.519 --> 00:48:14.340
And the great thing about it is that the politics of the colony

1071
00:48:14.340 --> 00:48:19.800
play out against this backdrop of the fact that we know that the

1072
00:48:19.800 --> 00:48:22.679
Daleks are going to come to life and kill everyone.

1073
00:48:22.739 --> 00:48:25.139
And we're waiting for it.

1074
00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:26.039
And he will do it again.

1075
00:48:26.099 --> 00:48:28.860
And I think he does it vastly less successfully in evil of the

1076
00:48:28.860 --> 00:48:32.760
Daleks, which I think wears out its welcome in a way before you

1077
00:48:32.760 --> 00:48:33.480
get...

1078
00:48:33.480 --> 00:48:35.159
You might actually be going to agree.

1079
00:48:35.219 --> 00:48:37.380
Please keep listening, dear listen.

1080
00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:41.940
But in power of the Daleks, benefits enormously, and particularly

1081
00:48:41.940 --> 00:48:45.900
because you get the Daleks being friendly, and you can see why

1082
00:48:45.900 --> 00:48:50.820
Gaitas went back to this for victory of the Daleks, where you have

1083
00:48:50.820 --> 00:48:53.940
Daleks carrying trays and bringing people liquid and like

1084
00:48:53.940 --> 00:48:56.579
expressing concern that the governor hasn't finished his liquid

1085
00:48:56.579 --> 00:48:57.300
and stuff.

1086
00:48:57.300 --> 00:49:00.420
It doesn't quite reach the superb heights of the Dalek going, you

1087
00:49:00.420 --> 00:49:02.519
know, care for some tea.

1088
00:49:02.579 --> 00:49:05.039
Which I just think is truly splendid.

1089
00:49:05.099 --> 00:49:07.739
And that's actually how Rod offers to make me feel.

1090
00:49:07.800 --> 00:49:09.300
He loves that episode.

1091
00:49:09.420 --> 00:49:13.559
So, so, you know, the fact that you've got these Daleks that you

1092
00:49:13.559 --> 00:49:17.039
know, and, you know, you see the Daleks looking at the doctor.

1093
00:49:17.099 --> 00:49:21.480
This is the 1st time you get Dalek eye view through a toilet roll

1094
00:49:21.480 --> 00:49:24.900
you know, and you see them looking at the doctor and you see that

1095
00:49:24.900 --> 00:49:26.099
they recognise the doctor.

1096
00:49:26.219 --> 00:49:29.940
And so they're sinister and malevolent all the way through and you

1097
00:49:29.940 --> 00:49:35.219
know that this rebellion is really not going to be permitted to

1098
00:49:35.219 --> 00:49:36.719
reach its natural conclusion.

1099
00:49:36.780 --> 00:49:39.480
And I think I think it works very, very well.

1100
00:49:39.539 --> 00:49:44.039
And it's all, it's all the levels, which I didn't pick up when I

1101
00:49:44.039 --> 00:49:46.019
1st watched the recon.

1102
00:49:46.079 --> 00:49:47.880
And I think that's why I didn't enjoy.

1103
00:49:47.940 --> 00:49:49.860
It's all the levels on which the word power is used.

1104
00:49:49.920 --> 00:49:51.059
Yes.

1105
00:49:51.059 --> 00:49:53.699
There's actual electrical power.

1106
00:49:53.760 --> 00:49:55.320
There is political power.

1107
00:49:55.380 --> 00:49:59.099
There is the power of ideas and dissent.

1108
00:49:59.159 --> 00:50:03.719
There is the power of identity with the doctor, not quite saying

1109
00:50:03.719 --> 00:50:06.480
he's the doctor, and as you say, also stepping into a dead man's

1110
00:50:06.480 --> 00:50:07.800
shoes for the 2nd time in 10 minutes.

1111
00:50:07.860 --> 00:50:14.460
Um, There is the multiple power struggles with the humans.

1112
00:50:14.519 --> 00:50:18.300
The novelisation really fleshes out the character of Janley.

1113
00:50:18.360 --> 00:50:21.719
Yeah, almost once a season in Doctor Who.

1114
00:50:21.780 --> 00:50:23.880
We have had a female villain.

1115
00:50:23.940 --> 00:50:25.380
We had Carla.

1116
00:50:25.440 --> 00:50:26.820
We are...

1117
00:50:26.820 --> 00:50:29.639
Marg, you know?

1118
00:50:30.179 --> 00:50:33.840
They don't engine an A. They probably say.

1119
00:50:33.900 --> 00:50:36.059
And now we've got Janley.

1120
00:50:36.119 --> 00:50:37.079
Oh, there you go.

1121
00:50:37.139 --> 00:50:38.159
Like missy.

1122
00:50:38.400 --> 00:50:41.699
It's not a vowel, but it still sounds...

1123
00:50:42.059 --> 00:50:45.659
And I mean, something that John Hill doesn't shy away from.

1124
00:50:45.719 --> 00:50:49.440
And I know this is kind of my my my drum that I beat him podcast.

1125
00:50:49.500 --> 00:50:54.059
He doesn't shy away from the notion of sexual politics and the

1126
00:50:54.059 --> 00:50:58.380
notion that, yeah, the notion that generally would perhaps be

1127
00:50:58.380 --> 00:51:01.019
taken slightly more seriously, if she wasn't a pretty girl.

1128
00:51:01.260 --> 00:51:04.500
Oh, I think she's actually more interesting because of that

1129
00:51:04.500 --> 00:51:07.019
because, yeah, she's able to subvert.

1130
00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:10.260
Wouldn't this have been great if Whitaker had novelized this one?

1131
00:51:10.320 --> 00:51:10.920
Yeah.

1132
00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:14.099
This is my favourite Dalek story.

1133
00:51:14.159 --> 00:51:15.780
But here's...

1134
00:51:15.900 --> 00:51:19.800
Here's a bit of an insight into John Peele's version of Janley's

1135
00:51:19.800 --> 00:51:19.980
mind.

1136
00:51:20.039 --> 00:51:23.639
This is after she's demonstrated the Dalek gum to the rebels and

1137
00:51:23.639 --> 00:51:24.360
they're all really happy.

1138
00:51:24.480 --> 00:51:29.579
And the thing is, in John Peel's mind, she's helping the rebels

1139
00:51:29.579 --> 00:51:32.579
not overly because she's interested in overthrowing the colony, but

1140
00:51:32.579 --> 00:51:34.739
just because it will improve her position in the colony.

1141
00:51:34.800 --> 00:51:39.059
Fool, she thought, so easily manipulated by stupid phrases and

1142
00:51:39.059 --> 00:51:39.900
idiotic desires.

1143
00:51:40.019 --> 00:51:43.380
Soon there will be change all right, but there will be precious

1144
00:51:43.380 --> 00:51:45.119
little freedom for you idiots.

1145
00:51:45.179 --> 00:51:47.099
It's subtle, isn't it?

1146
00:51:47.159 --> 00:51:49.739
It's a subtle narrative voice, John Peels.

1147
00:51:49.800 --> 00:51:55.079
But that is so politically relevant because that is what bad

1148
00:51:55.079 --> 00:51:57.840
leaders do and think of their people.

1149
00:51:57.840 --> 00:52:01.199
Not that I'm pointing any fingers at a certain Prime Minister of

1150
00:52:01.199 --> 00:52:02.219
Australia right now.

1151
00:52:02.280 --> 00:52:04.320
I'm not crediting him with as much intelligence.

1152
00:52:04.380 --> 00:52:07.619
But I now adore this story.

1153
00:52:07.679 --> 00:52:12.480
I gone from thinking the story is, meh, to thinking that, God, this

1154
00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:14.340
is so clever.

1155
00:52:14.400 --> 00:52:18.719
See, I don't read generally as the villain in the same way that

1156
00:52:18.719 --> 00:52:19.559
Bragen is.

1157
00:52:19.619 --> 00:52:22.380
Like, I think Breagan is definitely a villain and he's played by

1158
00:52:22.380 --> 00:52:28.199
he's Scarman, you know, the evil possessed tech guy in the future

1159
00:52:28.199 --> 00:52:30.780
and so it's a very...

1160
00:52:30.840 --> 00:52:32.460
He's a it's a terrific performance.

1161
00:52:32.519 --> 00:52:34.500
He's really he's terrifically good.

1162
00:52:34.559 --> 00:52:40.079
But I think the fun thing about it is that the Daleks actually

1163
00:52:40.079 --> 00:52:45.900
just end up being a kind of metaphor for the evil.

1164
00:52:45.960 --> 00:52:51.119
You know, the Daleks are going to be used by one or either side.

1165
00:52:51.179 --> 00:52:55.860
The rebels or the government in order to prosecute a conflict that

1166
00:52:55.860 --> 00:52:57.719
they're just having on a purely human level.

1167
00:52:57.780 --> 00:53:05.940
And so the reason the Daleks are unleashed is because of this, you

1168
00:53:05.940 --> 00:53:09.599
know, human inability to get on and a human inability to cooperate

1169
00:53:09.599 --> 00:53:13.320
and human rivalries and human political intrigue.

1170
00:53:13.380 --> 00:53:18.360
And it unleashes this force, this ontological force, if you will

1171
00:53:18.420 --> 00:53:22.199
that just comes in and mows them all down.

1172
00:53:22.199 --> 00:53:26.880
And so the Daleks get, they get an allegorical role.

1173
00:53:26.940 --> 00:53:32.579
They get to play the role of human evil and so they're unleashed

1174
00:53:32.579 --> 00:53:35.940
and they rayify that human, that human evil.

1175
00:53:36.000 --> 00:53:38.159
And those scenes are just fantastic.

1176
00:53:38.219 --> 00:53:41.099
They just literally go through the base and sort of kill everyone

1177
00:53:41.099 --> 00:53:41.460
off.

1178
00:53:41.579 --> 00:53:43.260
It's spectacular.

1179
00:53:43.320 --> 00:53:45.059
In a way that Mondas never could.

1180
00:53:45.119 --> 00:53:46.079
No, no, no.

1181
00:53:46.199 --> 00:53:48.659
And then there's the stuff about power.

1182
00:53:48.719 --> 00:53:49.800
So the whole thing.

1183
00:53:49.860 --> 00:53:56.159
The Daleks get, when the Daleks become a real threat, what it is

1184
00:53:56.159 --> 00:53:59.940
is they're going to become independent from the colony's power

1185
00:53:59.940 --> 00:54:03.599
supply and they're going to have their own power supply.

1186
00:54:03.719 --> 00:54:07.139
And David Whitaker even brings back the idea of static electricity

1187
00:54:07.139 --> 00:54:10.139
from the Daleks that they operate on a different kind of power

1188
00:54:10.139 --> 00:54:11.460
from human power.

1189
00:54:11.519 --> 00:54:14.579
So they're initially dependent on the colony's power, but once

1190
00:54:14.579 --> 00:54:18.059
they get unleashed, once they get to be a real force, they become

1191
00:54:18.059 --> 00:54:23.159
independent of the human power structure and end up being having a

1192
00:54:23.159 --> 00:54:24.539
power structure of their own.

1193
00:54:24.599 --> 00:54:27.480
And the way that the doctor destroys them is before that can

1194
00:54:27.480 --> 00:54:27.960
happen.

1195
00:54:28.019 --> 00:54:31.019
He destroys the colony's power structure.

1196
00:54:31.139 --> 00:54:33.539
And he even says we'd better leave now.

1197
00:54:33.659 --> 00:54:35.159
He destroys their power system.

1198
00:54:35.219 --> 00:54:36.960
You know, their power system.

1199
00:54:36.960 --> 00:54:38.760
And, uh...

1200
00:54:38.760 --> 00:54:39.840
The poisonous atmosphere.

1201
00:54:39.900 --> 00:54:43.739
And he leaves he leaves before before they can send him the bill

1202
00:54:43.739 --> 00:54:44.579
is what he says.

1203
00:54:44.639 --> 00:54:48.780
And so there's that, there is that meaning. before Jacqueline

1204
00:54:48.780 --> 00:54:50.219
Pierce turns up.

1205
00:54:50.219 --> 00:54:53.760
She's really, you're really just writing for the last scene, huh?

1206
00:54:53.820 --> 00:54:56.579
She takes over the colony, yeah. dead bodies.

1207
00:54:56.639 --> 00:54:58.079
And Commissioner Jan...

1208
00:54:58.380 --> 00:55:03.360
So all of that, that double meaning of the word power and things.

1209
00:55:03.420 --> 00:55:07.500
It is just terribly, terribly clever, massively interesting.

1210
00:55:07.559 --> 00:55:08.639
Those great visuals.

1211
00:55:08.699 --> 00:55:12.239
You know, that inside the dialect capsule where there's the

1212
00:55:12.239 --> 00:55:17.340
incredible conveyor belt of the blob Daleks being put into the

1213
00:55:17.340 --> 00:55:17.760
thing.

1214
00:55:17.820 --> 00:55:19.500
There's huge scenes of Daleks.

1215
00:55:19.559 --> 00:55:24.960
About half of them are cardboard cutouts, you know, but there's

1216
00:55:24.960 --> 00:55:26.579
sort of a number of Daleks and things.

1217
00:55:26.639 --> 00:55:31.739
The Daleks are clever, you know, they're subtle. you know, they're

1218
00:55:31.739 --> 00:55:34.019
vastly better than I think they've ever been.

1219
00:55:34.079 --> 00:55:35.820
And I'd have to agree with you.

1220
00:55:35.880 --> 00:55:38.039
I think it's the best Dalek story.

1221
00:55:38.099 --> 00:55:41.760
They show that the master of the universe, not through brute force

1222
00:55:41.760 --> 00:55:44.460
but through cunning and subterfusion guile.

1223
00:55:44.519 --> 00:55:47.579
They're smarter than us and it's not nice to watch.

1224
00:55:47.639 --> 00:55:48.659
It's not easy.

1225
00:55:48.719 --> 00:55:54.360
And well, the reason they're smarter than us is because of our own

1226
00:55:54.360 --> 00:55:55.260
petty rivalries.

1227
00:55:55.320 --> 00:55:57.719
It's a bit like the cybermen are better than us because they don't

1228
00:55:57.719 --> 00:56:00.719
have emotions and our emotions will literally blow us up with a

1229
00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:01.199
giant bomb.

1230
00:56:01.260 --> 00:56:04.860
The Daleks are better than us because they all work towards the

1231
00:56:04.860 --> 00:56:07.079
same goal, whereas we fracture and split them.

1232
00:56:07.139 --> 00:56:10.679
Does the Dalek actually ask Bragen why human beings kill one

1233
00:56:10.679 --> 00:56:10.980
another?

1234
00:56:11.039 --> 00:56:11.880
Yeah.

1235
00:56:11.940 --> 00:56:13.559
And Breagan pretty much said so.

1236
00:56:13.619 --> 00:56:14.579
Go away.

1237
00:56:14.639 --> 00:56:17.280
I'm too busy to talk to you right now and the Dale is just like

1238
00:56:17.280 --> 00:56:20.340
thanks for bringing that up because that's my perfect moment in

1239
00:56:20.340 --> 00:56:22.380
this story and you get the real moral imperative.

1240
00:56:22.440 --> 00:56:25.079
Oh, once again, you don't have the upper hand human.

1241
00:56:25.139 --> 00:56:26.219
You really don't.

1242
00:56:26.340 --> 00:56:30.239
Yeah, no, the Daleks aren't evil in opposition to the humans.

1243
00:56:30.300 --> 00:56:34.079
The Daleks are a representation of the evil.

1244
00:56:34.079 --> 00:56:35.340
They're an each force.

1245
00:56:35.400 --> 00:56:36.300
They're a force of nature.

1246
00:56:36.360 --> 00:56:38.400
They're just a force, not necessarily, yeah.

1247
00:56:38.460 --> 00:56:39.539
Yeah, that's right.

1248
00:56:39.599 --> 00:56:41.760
They're a psychological force or something.

1249
00:56:41.820 --> 00:56:46.679
It is so much smarter than the stupid vowels versus the Daleks, you

1250
00:56:46.679 --> 00:56:49.079
know, the good and evil people and stuff.

1251
00:56:49.139 --> 00:56:50.219
It's very...

1252
00:56:50.280 --> 00:56:53.280
Another moment where we've seen before with Spooner, where Terry

1253
00:56:53.280 --> 00:56:57.000
Nation's ideas are really great, as you can see as a device and as

1254
00:56:57.000 --> 00:56:58.019
a place to start with.

1255
00:56:58.079 --> 00:57:00.300
Just don't let him finish the script. somebody else jump in

1256
00:57:00.300 --> 00:57:00.420
please.

1257
00:57:00.780 --> 00:57:02.400
It's all right.

1258
00:57:02.460 --> 00:57:03.780
He almost does.

1259
00:57:03.780 --> 00:57:05.940
It's true.

1260
00:57:06.119 --> 00:57:12.059
We haven't really addressed the new guy and what he's like.

1261
00:57:12.300 --> 00:57:15.000
So Trouton in this.

1262
00:57:15.179 --> 00:57:19.199
Well, he's literally on his feet from the 1st few seconds.

1263
00:57:19.320 --> 00:57:22.019
It's not what we may expect from later in generation stories where

1264
00:57:22.019 --> 00:57:25.199
the doctor spends a little time lying around or recovery or what

1265
00:57:25.199 --> 00:57:27.659
have you, which, you know, would be an understandable thing to

1266
00:57:27.659 --> 00:57:28.380
do.

1267
00:57:28.440 --> 00:57:30.780
They've got to just get him up and get him straight into the

1268
00:57:30.780 --> 00:57:31.019
story.

1269
00:57:31.079 --> 00:57:35.519
Well, he spends that 1st part of the story, the 1st few episodes

1270
00:57:35.519 --> 00:57:38.639
referring to Billy's doctor as the real doctor.

1271
00:57:38.699 --> 00:57:39.480
What the doctor did?

1272
00:57:39.539 --> 00:57:39.960
The doctor?

1273
00:57:40.019 --> 00:57:41.460
You're not really meant to believe it.

1274
00:57:41.519 --> 00:57:42.840
The tensions kept going.

1275
00:57:42.900 --> 00:57:45.480
He doesn't, I don't reckon personally.

1276
00:57:45.539 --> 00:57:49.079
He doesn't become the doctor until the Leicesterton scene when he

1277
00:57:49.079 --> 00:57:51.960
has that that one-on-one with Lester.

1278
00:57:52.019 --> 00:57:53.219
Yeah, in all his early stuff.

1279
00:57:53.280 --> 00:57:57.360
He plays it slightly differently in each scene, as if His

1280
00:57:57.360 --> 00:58:01.260
character is trying out different personalities.

1281
00:58:01.380 --> 00:58:03.360
Like he doesn't know who he is yet.

1282
00:58:03.420 --> 00:58:05.219
He's he's a blank slate.

1283
00:58:05.280 --> 00:58:09.239
So he tries being quite bullish at one and I think he's actually

1284
00:58:09.239 --> 00:58:11.519
picked that up from Ben being very bullish with him.

1285
00:58:11.579 --> 00:58:15.059
But yeah, as you say, it's when it's when the Daleks show up and

1286
00:58:15.059 --> 00:58:17.280
he starts confronting Lesterson that he kind of remembers.

1287
00:58:17.340 --> 00:58:20.280
And then the Dalek does that double take and looks at him in the

1288
00:58:20.280 --> 00:58:22.800
ice stalk, sort of, and then you go, whoa.

1289
00:58:22.800 --> 00:58:24.420
You know, does it recognise him?

1290
00:58:24.480 --> 00:58:28.500
And actually, by the end of it, we never get a definitive answer

1291
00:58:28.500 --> 00:58:31.199
as to whether the Daleks recognise him as the doctor.

1292
00:58:31.980 --> 00:58:33.840
I don't recall that.

1293
00:58:33.900 --> 00:58:35.219
I don't know.

1294
00:58:35.219 --> 00:58:36.900
I'm sure they do.

1295
00:58:36.960 --> 00:58:39.840
I think because I was sure that I was sure that they would, but

1296
00:58:39.840 --> 00:58:43.079
you know, Ben and Polly surmised that the Dalek looked at him so

1297
00:58:43.079 --> 00:58:44.159
he must be the doctor.

1298
00:58:44.219 --> 00:58:46.500
But it's never explicitly stated.

1299
00:58:46.559 --> 00:58:48.000
And I think that's very clever as well.

1300
00:58:48.059 --> 00:58:50.699
It's a way to keep that kind of thing going because, you know, a

1301
00:58:50.699 --> 00:58:51.719
dalek would start screaming.

1302
00:58:51.780 --> 00:58:53.280
It's the doctor, like a broken Hitler dog.

1303
00:58:53.340 --> 00:58:56.940
Except that they're trying to be subtle and the Daleks are being

1304
00:58:56.940 --> 00:58:57.780
undercover at the moment.

1305
00:58:57.840 --> 00:58:58.500
Yeah.

1306
00:58:58.559 --> 00:59:03.059
I think that the, I think that the huge, huge PD, and this is

1307
00:59:03.059 --> 00:59:06.840
going to be a huge feature of season 4 because it's the one that

1308
00:59:06.840 --> 00:59:11.699
was most heavily, um, I want to say decimated, but I'll annoy

1309
00:59:11.699 --> 00:59:12.719
Patents if I do.

1310
00:59:12.780 --> 00:59:16.800
It was the most heavily affected by the junkings of episodes.

1311
00:59:16.860 --> 00:59:21.179
There's not a single story that exists in its entirety, and heaps

1312
00:59:21.179 --> 00:59:22.380
and heaps of them don't exist.

1313
00:59:22.500 --> 00:59:25.679
And it's something like there's like a 12 episode run or something

1314
00:59:25.679 --> 00:59:29.820
like that where the episodes don't exist from 10th Planet 3 to

1315
00:59:29.820 --> 00:59:30.900
Underwater Menace 2.

1316
00:59:31.320 --> 00:59:35.099
And so we don't get to see Trouton for a really, really long

1317
00:59:35.099 --> 00:59:35.400
time.

1318
00:59:35.460 --> 00:59:38.940
And we'll come next episode to underwater menace and it's

1319
00:59:38.940 --> 00:59:39.360
terrible.

1320
00:59:39.420 --> 00:59:45.300
But the, the, um, but the relief in actually seeing Troughton's

1321
00:59:45.300 --> 00:59:49.800
performance in episode 2 for the 1st time and he's magnetic, even

1322
00:59:49.800 --> 00:59:52.320
even though the material is terrible, it just would have been

1323
00:59:52.320 --> 00:59:57.059
quite spectacular to see him because his doctor, like we can't see

1324
00:59:57.059 --> 00:59:59.280
the performance, but we can see his doctor and his doctor is

1325
00:59:59.280 --> 01:00:00.599
vastly, vastly different.

1326
01:00:00.659 --> 01:00:07.260
The closest that we've come to it before is the savages where he

1327
01:00:07.260 --> 01:00:10.139
takes such delight in smashing up the machinery.

1328
01:00:10.260 --> 01:00:12.000
Yeah, yeah, real anarchic moment.

1329
01:00:12.059 --> 01:00:15.179
Here he is, you know, he's the most feared being in all the

1330
01:00:15.179 --> 01:00:15.780
cosmos.

1331
01:00:15.840 --> 01:00:18.719
You know, he drops out of the sky and tears down your world, you

1332
01:00:18.719 --> 01:00:18.960
know.

1333
01:00:19.019 --> 01:00:20.639
He's unpredictable.

1334
01:00:20.699 --> 01:00:22.380
He smashes the place up.

1335
01:00:22.440 --> 01:00:26.699
You know, he watches as everyone gets killed, but he destroys the

1336
01:00:26.699 --> 01:00:31.679
Daleks and then he's off. before there's any, you know, explanation

1337
01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:32.940
or apology or anything.

1338
01:00:33.000 --> 01:00:35.159
He's really, really remarkable.

1339
01:00:35.219 --> 01:00:37.440
He just smashes the place up and leaves.

1340
01:00:37.500 --> 01:00:41.400
And that becomes quite a thing for Patrick Troughton's doctor

1341
01:00:41.400 --> 01:00:43.320
which we'll talk about more next episode.

1342
01:00:43.380 --> 01:00:48.719
He does sort of, after whatever he's done, you know, regardless of

1343
01:00:48.719 --> 01:00:52.920
any good or bad, final consequence.

1344
01:00:52.980 --> 01:00:56.039
Obviously, there's always a good thing that's happened.

1345
01:00:56.099 --> 01:00:59.699
He slips away quietly and unnoticed, more so than any other

1346
01:00:59.699 --> 01:01:00.119
doctor.

1347
01:01:00.179 --> 01:01:03.059
And I think I think that's going to be quite interesting to look

1348
01:01:03.059 --> 01:01:04.380
at as we go through his era.

1349
01:01:05.039 --> 01:01:07.320
But he's spectacular.

1350
01:01:07.380 --> 01:01:10.739
And I think it does give the series a shot in the arm straight

1351
01:01:10.739 --> 01:01:11.159
away.

1352
01:01:11.219 --> 01:01:12.599
We'll see how it plays out.

1353
01:01:12.719 --> 01:01:17.460
Let's not forget that we 1st we see the 1st shimmer of the dark

1354
01:01:17.460 --> 01:01:18.900
doctor in this.

1355
01:01:18.960 --> 01:01:23.159
Billy would never have sent a platoon of guards to their death

1356
01:01:23.159 --> 01:01:23.639
list.

1357
01:01:23.699 --> 01:01:24.780
I don't believe he did.

1358
01:01:24.840 --> 01:01:25.920
I don't remember a moment.

1359
01:01:25.980 --> 01:01:26.519
Do you?

1360
01:01:26.519 --> 01:01:28.260
But Bragen's guards.

1361
01:01:28.320 --> 01:01:31.199
That's what Pat does to sort it out.

1362
01:01:31.260 --> 01:01:32.280
That's what they're for.

1363
01:01:32.340 --> 01:01:34.320
Send them there to divert it. soldiers.

1364
01:01:34.380 --> 01:01:35.219
Send them off to the doom.

1365
01:01:35.280 --> 01:01:36.119
I don't like soldiers.

1366
01:01:36.179 --> 01:01:37.019
Yeah.

1367
01:01:37.079 --> 01:01:40.800
Yeah, I was looking out for that because I had heard of that and I

1368
01:01:40.800 --> 01:01:43.980
didn't think he's as directly responsible as it seems, but he's

1369
01:01:43.980 --> 01:01:46.739
remarkably unaffected by it.

1370
01:01:46.800 --> 01:01:47.760
Do you know what I mean?

1371
01:01:47.820 --> 01:01:49.500
He's kind of happy for it to happen.

1372
01:01:49.559 --> 01:01:55.139
Yeah, so he does become this stranger marking figure in a way that

1373
01:01:55.139 --> 01:01:57.239
we haven't really seen very much of.

1374
01:01:57.420 --> 01:02:03.420
Right, on that note, I think it's time for us to move on.

1375
01:02:03.480 --> 01:02:09.059
So we'll be back next week with a new episode looking at the next

1376
01:02:09.059 --> 01:02:14.519
3 stories for Patrick Troughton, and yet another shake up to the

1377
01:02:14.519 --> 01:02:18.420
TARDIS crew in those 3 stories of the Highlanders, the underwater

1378
01:02:18.420 --> 01:02:24.420
menace, and the moonbase, where we also see the side men come back

1379
01:02:24.420 --> 01:02:24.599
again.

1380
01:02:24.659 --> 01:02:28.260
And I think we see Doctor Who reach its current form.

1381
01:02:28.320 --> 01:02:31.320
So I'm going to say good night.

1382
01:02:31.380 --> 01:02:33.000
Yeah, good night for me.

1383
01:02:33.059 --> 01:02:34.079
And good night from me.

1384
01:02:34.199 --> 01:02:35.400
Good night.

1385
01:02:39.119 --> 01:02:42.360
You have been interesting, Michael.

1386
01:02:42.360 --> 01:02:45.599
Pirate, where they can bother me, Brandon, don't get me turns

1387
01:02:45.599 --> 01:02:45.840
down.

1388
01:02:45.900 --> 01:02:46.800
Please, get me down.

1389
01:02:46.920 --> 01:02:50.340
Mum wetting once we call it on Sunday before October.

1390
01:02:50.400 --> 01:02:55.079
The next episode will be released on her baby, when it's sick. at

1391
01:02:55.079 --> 01:03:01.079
Biduentirety.com, but do entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FDE

1392
01:02:59.639 --> 01:03:02.699
com, Twitter, it's a short, eh?

1393
01:03:02.699 --> 01:03:04.019
Booping all about.

1394
01:03:07.079 --> 01:03:12.300
All right, on that note, Moving on to the infant era, the final

1395
01:03:12.300 --> 01:03:15.360
Willie Partner story, spoiler alert, the 10th planet.

1396
01:03:16.019 --> 01:03:22.199
Woo, woo, our, our, our, our...