WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 12:12:06

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through

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Entirety.

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The only Doctor Who podcast who may not be with you corporeally

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but we are enjoying ourselves immensely.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan I'm Todd, and it's time to wrap up this trial with the

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final segment known as the Ultimate Foe.

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It's been a long, long 14 weeks to get to this point, or 572 weeks

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depending on how you look at it.

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Yeah, so we have this two-parter, which was shot third.

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It was shot before Terror of the Belvoids.

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These 6 episodes were shot as a 6 parter, which is why we get all

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this lovely location work in the industrial museum with all those

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lovely buildings and pride in every cog and piston.

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So this is Bonnie Langford's 1st work on the show chronologically

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and also, as we know, Robert Holmes' last work on the show, as he

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passed away while writing the final episode.

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Yeah, so that's that's pretty much the background of this one.

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I think it is a giant mess.

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And I think it exhibits all of the problems that we've talked

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about with the trial before, that they didn't go into it with any

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coherent plan about what was going on or how the bits of evidence

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fitted together.

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And so, at the end, it just becomes kind of clear that no one is

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on the same page.

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And the whole thing is just massively exacerbated by Holmes's

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death.

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He doesn't finish episode 14.

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He writes episode 13, which I think is probably the best single

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episode of the trial.

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He doesn't get to write episode 14.

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Say would write a script for episode 14, but then has a giant

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dummy spit and walks taking it with him.

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And who else do we get in to do a sort of a sudden patch up job at

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very short notice with very short turnaround time than Pip and

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Jane Baker?

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Question about episode 13.

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I thought Bob did a pass of it, and he was ill, and I thought

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Popplewick was actually Eric Saywood's creation.

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That's quite possible because Eric Saywood does massively rewrite

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the script from the moment the doctor enters the Matrix.

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So the plot, if you like, is Robert Holmes and some of the

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dialogue might be, but from various reports, it looks like from

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halfway through the episode, it's 90% Eric Saywood.

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And Robert Holmes' name ends up on it for 2 reasons.

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One, it was still frowned upon at the BBC for script editors, too

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commission themselves.

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And also Eric had such deep respect for Robert Holmes and took the

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attitude that if he could have finished writing it, he would have

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done.

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The reason that Eric's part 14 doesn't end up going on screen is

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the reason that Eric left the show and gave that explosive

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interview in Starburst where he called everyone horrible.

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And that is in the initial conception of the season.

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Spoiler alert, the Valiard is a future incarnation of the doctor

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or as he ends up being a distillation of the doctor's evil impulse

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somewhere between his 12th and final incarnation.

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But in the initial thought, which was agreed to by Eric, by John

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and by Robert Holmes, the doctor in the Valiard, we're going to

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end up in a sort of Reichenbach fall situation where they fall

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into something and there's a season cliffhanger as to whether the

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doctor gets out or not.

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Now, it's never been confirmed, but it's been suggested that part

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of the reason for that is JNT knew that this was meant to be his

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final year again.

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And he also knew that once he left, people could make whatever

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changes to the show they wanted.

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So in JNT's mind at that stage when they were 1st scripting

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everything.

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If they decided they wanted to get rid of everyone, including

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Colin, you can have a regeneration offscreen and do that.

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During the development of the season.

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JNT realised that you were going to have 13 weeks of cliffhangers

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followed by another cliffhanger.

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And thought, well that's not very fair to the audience.

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You know, originally when I'd heard rumours of what, say, what's

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initial script for episode 14 was like, I thought that, you know, a

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giant cliffhanger liked that at the end would have been terribly

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exciting, but now I think it would have been a terrible mistake.

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I think you've put us through all this nonsense for 14 weeks and

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you're going to leave us there like that.

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It's just not really good enough.

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And it's sort of say word drama.

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Do you know what I mean?

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Oh, we'll kill the companion.

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Oh, you know, we're going to be very gritty.

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The doctor's going to be off his face on Vox, Nick.

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You know, we're real grown ups here.

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But in fact, it is a sort of cheap and sort of rather dismal end

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to something that's been going on for a long time, and I think the

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audience probably deserves something better than that.

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Agreed.

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The audience deserves answers, you know, and it deserves a proper

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conclusion.

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But the problem is, as we've discussed, the trial was never really

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set up properly anyway, to resemble a real trial.

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And I think another problem is the fact that they give themselves

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just 2 episodes to do it in.

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And when you watch that big expose on the DVD for the last

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episodes of trial about the whole making of it, He goes into the

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fact like the 1st story is not actually supposed to be a trial. an

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inquiry.

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You know, I really think that should have been 3 episodes, and

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then 4 episodes with Perry's death in the middle, 4 episodes, and

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then give us 3 episodes at the end of actual, you know, time to

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actually process everything and give us answers and actual

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danger.

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Like, you know, we haven't had real danger.

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And this is why I think I like this episode the best out of all

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the season.

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Like the fact that suddenly the doctor is put into danger and is

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not in a box in a room commenting on the TV.

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You know, I look back and I can't give it to a single Pip and Jane

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Baker episode.

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I have problems with the 1st story, you know, with all the

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terrible puns on Neckajard and all that sort of stuff and I think

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episode 4 and episode 5 have the worst bits of that in it.

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Then you've got the two episodes in middle of mine, where the

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doctor, Izzy, or isn't he, and I think that's a problem.

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And then you've got all the, the last episode of mine will wear

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all the dialogue for the inquisitor should really be the valley

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yards.

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So I think by default, this episode, because it gives us some

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answers, right, to a degree.

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And there's and there's real danger happening, ends up, I think

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probably been the best written.

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And then this whole concept about the value I'd been, this

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distillation between the 12th and final incarnation, the doctor

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like came in.

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Well, how did that come about?

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Did the timelords create him?

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Because he found out about Ravelocks or was it some sort of future

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experiment that's gone wrong with the master?

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You know?

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There's no answer.

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I actually don't mind that so much.

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I think, you know, we've kind of seen things like Choji and the

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Watcher and stuff who are kind of adjuncts to a time lord around

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about the time of their regeneration and we can kind of sort of

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squint and see that maybe the valleyard's the same thing.

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And I think any kind of real explanation would be a little bit

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leaden.

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I don't think it's any coincidence that the Valiard hasn't found

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his way into Doctor Who mythology, really.

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He does get a throwaway reference in a Matt Smith episode, I

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think.

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Yes, in the name of the doctor.

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Yeah.

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So he does get reference there.

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But, you know, the new adventures deliberately went out of their

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way to avoid him as a kind of, it's a bit of a mess.

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He doesn't really make his way into our mythology.

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And I think because he is sort of slightly half baked.

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I think the thing that makes the Valiard good is Michael Jason's

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performance, but he's not, he's either master.

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I think the masters are kind of terrible character that's only

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saved by some of the actor's performances.

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But essentially he's just, or she is just someone who's evil for

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no particular reason.

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And the same with the valiard.

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I think, in fact, it's not where the valiard comes from sort of

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metaphysically, but why the doctor's evil impulses are kind of

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lawful evil, as it were.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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He's not a maniac and he's been sitting around for the last 12

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weeks going, I'm going to go through this charade of a trial.

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You know, he's not insane.

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No.

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And the doctor is someone who rebels against bureaucracy and laws

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and strictures, and that's a particularly homes-in conception of

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what the doctor's about.

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Whereas the valiard's quite the opposite of that.

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It's not just that the valiard's evil, but the valiard is

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interested in procedure and rules and laws and all of those kinds

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of things.

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So he's the doctor's opposite.

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But, you know, like the doctor secretly fantasises about filling

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in lots of forms and stuff. you know, is that is that what we're

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to understand?

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It doesn't really make any sense.

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And it's not helped by the fact that we have a change of writers.

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And Pipp and Jane Baker have to write that script in 3 or 4 days.

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And so they put their own take on it.

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So he goes from wanting the future incarnations to suddenly, you

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know, wanting to destroy all the time lords in the trial room

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which is going to cause the downfall of the high council.

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Like it makes no real sense.

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Like, has have Gallifrey all been watching this trial from the

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beginning?

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It seems to indicate that when insurrectionists are running a Mark

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on Gallifre, Well, they could only have been watching this trial

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because, you know, the high counsellor corrupt and the doctor is a

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champion of the people.

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Do you know what I'm saying?

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Yeah, and it's terrible word peril as well.

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I mean, nothing could be less interesting than insurrectionists

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running a mark on Gallifrey, I think.

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But we don't even see that.

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You know, it is just something that's said by someone to up the

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stakes and it really muddies the water of what the trial's about.

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In fact, I think it's a perfect metaphor for the trial.

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No one making the show had any idea what the trial was about.

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And so bringing Pip and Jane in at the last minute to kind of

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wreck it kind of works on some level.

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Yeah, there's even a line early on from the Inquisitor in one of

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the earlier stories where she says that this is a secret tribunal

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and yet everyone on Gallifrey seems to have been watching it

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sitting in Zorak's box on their laptops, you know what I mean?

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Something I do love about this particular episode.

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So we've had...

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We've had Doctor Who basically adopt this new structure and it's

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not even terribly good.

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It's 3 people sitting in a room commentating on the action.

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So what they do in episode 13 is the master turns up and breaks

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the show, which is what the master is meant to do.

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That light, you know, where the inquisitor says you have no part

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in these proceedings and he says, no, but I'm enjoying myself

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immensely.

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He just turns up and wrecks everything because when he comes in, he

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sends glitz there to give us the exposition of what was happening

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in the 1st story and why the doctor is on trial.

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And even though it's an info dump, because it's glitz, kind of

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just giving the information off hand, because he doesn't think

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it's important, that makes it interesting.

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And then when the master makes the big reveal that the valleyard

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is actually the doctor or a distillation of the doctor or whatever

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again, it's just conversational because I don't care, you know, but

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we don't care because we don't care about this program.

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So are you saying like it's like they don't really care?

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No, no, I'm saying it's really good because it kind of

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reestablishes the master because a big complaint we've had about

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the Ainley master is at his worst, he just turns up to kill the

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doctor and that's his raise of d'etre, whereas here he's seen the

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doctor is in trouble and he's just like, oh, while he's in trouble

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and everyone's looking that way, I can go in and plunder the

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matrix.

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Oh, and by the way, he's your evil twin, didn't you know?

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Anyway, I'm off.

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Yeah, it is a throwaway line, is it?

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It's a throwaway line and it helps to establish that he's got his

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own stuff going on.

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It's not just about you, Colin.

243
00:13:12.539 --> 00:13:14.639
I think that's a good take.

244
00:13:14.700 --> 00:13:16.500
Like, I mean, when I watched it as a kid.

245
00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:18.840
Like, it's just his throwaway line. going, what?

246
00:13:18.899 --> 00:13:19.440
What?

247
00:13:19.500 --> 00:13:21.600
That's how you're going to reveal this, you know?

248
00:13:22.019 --> 00:13:24.960
Now I think it does work in that way.

249
00:13:25.019 --> 00:13:28.200
Yeah, well, I think how it kind of works is that the masters

250
00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:30.480
turned up and he takes control of the show for a bit.

251
00:13:30.539 --> 00:13:33.960
And then after that reveal, Colin stands up and he's just

252
00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:38.340
incredibly still and he repeats the information and we're back on

253
00:13:38.340 --> 00:13:38.639
him now.

254
00:13:38.700 --> 00:13:43.559
So that episode, there's kind of a bit of a tussle for control of

255
00:13:43.559 --> 00:13:45.659
the show, but it works.

256
00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:50.159
I think Colin's really good when he learns that the Valliards him

257
00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:52.440
that Revelation should halt this trial immediately.

258
00:13:52.500 --> 00:13:55.320
I really like that line and I think that's quite tense.

259
00:13:55.379 --> 00:13:59.220
For an episode, that has mostly been people standing around and

260
00:13:59.220 --> 00:13:59.580
talking.

261
00:13:59.639 --> 00:14:02.879
And of course, the Italian gets away because the guards are just

262
00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:04.139
standing there doing nothing.

263
00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:07.799
I think that's one of the things I kind of think, you know, I've

264
00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:10.860
commented about the black studio floor before.

265
00:14:10.860 --> 00:14:15.059
And I used to think it was like supposed to be like a big abyss or

266
00:14:15.059 --> 00:14:17.159
something like that, but instead it's like, oh, no, we're just

267
00:14:17.159 --> 00:14:19.200
going to have you run across the front of the camera and then

268
00:14:19.200 --> 00:14:23.279
around the back, you know, the limitations of this trial room.

269
00:14:23.340 --> 00:14:26.519
But of course, you know, Anthony's also under contract to do his

270
00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:28.320
appearance for the seasons and they have to work him in

271
00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:28.559
somewhere.

272
00:14:28.620 --> 00:14:31.379
Well, they could just pay him and not have him appear.

273
00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:32.340
They do that sometimes.

274
00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:34.559
Well, they did that for Colin and Nicola last year.

275
00:14:34.620 --> 00:14:35.220
Well that's it.

276
00:14:35.340 --> 00:14:37.320
Colin got paid for a whole extra season.

277
00:14:37.379 --> 00:14:40.259
So we do get 2 witnesses, right?

278
00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:42.000
We get Sabalong glitz.

279
00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:46.139
And I do love it when they're in the Matrix and that spear comes

280
00:14:46.139 --> 00:14:48.840
out of nowhere and just goes straight into his stomach.

281
00:14:48.899 --> 00:14:50.700
I always laugh my head off.

282
00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:54.960
But it is again a rewriting of the whole Matrix concept that you

283
00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:56.639
can physically go into the Matrix.

284
00:14:56.700 --> 00:14:59.220
But in a sense, I don't care very much about that.

285
00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:03.659
I actually think it's better to have them go through a door than

286
00:15:03.659 --> 00:15:07.320
it is to have them lie down on a bench and strap a big thing to

287
00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:07.679
their head.

288
00:15:07.740 --> 00:15:08.759
You know what I mean?

289
00:15:08.820 --> 00:15:09.419
That's boring.

290
00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:11.460
So that never really worried me.

291
00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:15.299
I think that this version of the Matrix is obviously vastly less

292
00:15:15.299 --> 00:15:20.039
interesting than the one we got in episode 3 of The Deadly

293
00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:22.799
Assassin, which was really tense and sort of terribly

294
00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:23.220
interesting.

295
00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:27.539
This is a lot of running around and a lot of sort of fake out

296
00:15:27.539 --> 00:15:31.740
peril and things that make no sense, but not in a sort of weird

297
00:15:31.740 --> 00:15:34.200
kind of fabulously surreal kind of way.

298
00:15:34.259 --> 00:15:38.700
It's kind of like poison gas and quicksand and, you know, the

299
00:15:38.700 --> 00:15:41.159
whole thing kind of just falls to pieces.

300
00:15:41.220 --> 00:15:45.179
And that's why I'm not sorry that we only have 2 episodes of it

301
00:15:45.179 --> 00:15:48.720
because once we leave the trial and everyone's just sitting around

302
00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:52.200
the trial room kind of watching everything else on telly.

303
00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:57.120
What actually happens in the Matrix isn't all that good, really.

304
00:15:57.240 --> 00:16:00.960
Well, I just love the fact that the doctor's out there and in

305
00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:05.460
peril and at least something's happening, at least when not just

306
00:16:05.460 --> 00:16:05.639
you know?

307
00:16:05.700 --> 00:16:08.700
But I think Melanie comes off worse for wear in this one.

308
00:16:08.759 --> 00:16:12.120
I mean, it's her 1st story, but things like Melanie known as Mel

309
00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:13.259
and she goes, that's it, doc.

310
00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:16.620
Now we're getting at the dirt, like just lines of dialogue that

311
00:16:16.620 --> 00:16:18.659
just don't really add to her character.

312
00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:21.600
Well, they don't work because they're written by Pip and Jane

313
00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:23.460
Baker, you know, a lot of the time.

314
00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:25.440
Or Eric Saywood. or Eric Saywood.

315
00:16:25.500 --> 00:16:26.460
We're never sure.

316
00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:31.259
And the other thing is, of course, that we said last week, the way

317
00:16:31.259 --> 00:16:34.919
that Mel performs it, the way that Bonnie Langford chooses to

318
00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:38.460
perform it at this stage is very theatrical and very big.

319
00:16:38.519 --> 00:16:42.840
And so she's unable to rescue those lines, just by acting.

320
00:16:42.899 --> 00:16:46.139
And we know that she is a good actor.

321
00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:49.320
And we've seen her have moments of it, but her standard way of

322
00:16:49.320 --> 00:16:52.679
presenting herself at this stage really does the dialogue kind of

323
00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:53.820
no favours at all.

324
00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:55.860
She does get very good moments, though.

325
00:16:55.919 --> 00:16:59.700
I actually, it's a bit too large, but I love the moment with the

326
00:16:59.700 --> 00:17:02.580
fake trial and her objection to that.

327
00:17:02.580 --> 00:17:07.319
And she sums it up really well with, The doctors convinced he must

328
00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:10.259
sacrifice to himself and you're prepared to let him do that.

329
00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:13.440
I think she plays the disgust of that very well.

330
00:17:13.500 --> 00:17:14.700
Again, it's a bit too loud.

331
00:17:14.940 --> 00:17:19.440
Getting back to something you said earlier about this interior of

332
00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:23.519
the Matrix, I actually like it more than the Deadly Assassin

333
00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:27.059
because, you know, we're told that this is the Valeyards domain

334
00:17:27.059 --> 00:17:28.019
and he's creating it.

335
00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:30.359
So it is more disciplined and more structured.

336
00:17:30.420 --> 00:17:36.180
And I think all the stuff in the sort of Victorian steamworks is

337
00:17:36.180 --> 00:17:39.299
in a way critiquing the show because the doctor has always had

338
00:17:39.299 --> 00:17:41.700
this Victorian or Edwardian sensibility.

339
00:17:41.700 --> 00:17:44.220
And the Valiards using that against him.

340
00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:49.920
He's using all this grand grinol, as the 6 doctor says, which the

341
00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:54.359
doctor loves so much. and turning it in on itself and he's using

342
00:17:54.359 --> 00:17:58.200
bureaucracy as well, which he knows the doctor hates.

343
00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:00.839
I think it's actually not quite taken far enough.

344
00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:05.220
Yeah, especially the bit on the beach then has no connection.

345
00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:05.940
No.

346
00:18:05.940 --> 00:18:07.559
It's striking visually.

347
00:18:07.619 --> 00:18:09.119
It just has no connection.

348
00:18:09.180 --> 00:18:10.259
Well, it's not that striking.

349
00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:13.019
It's like the world's most miserable day at the beach.

350
00:18:13.079 --> 00:18:17.940
But the wind and the sort of desolation with the valley are then

351
00:18:17.940 --> 00:18:22.319
popping in and out of reality, and his lines start before he pops

352
00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:25.980
into reality, and it kind of breaks what you would expect to

353
00:18:25.980 --> 00:18:28.559
happen, which is he would appear, deliver a line of dialogue, and

354
00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:31.200
then have to stand very still while they line up the film and

355
00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:31.799
disappear.

356
00:18:31.859 --> 00:18:34.319
And this time because they're working on video and they have that

357
00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:37.619
stability, instead of working on film, they're just like, no, we're

358
00:18:37.619 --> 00:18:38.400
just going to do it this way.

359
00:18:38.460 --> 00:18:41.579
And there's some really good shot composition there as well.

360
00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:44.099
Like when Glitz is suggesting insults for the doctor at the

361
00:18:44.099 --> 00:18:46.980
valleyard creeps up behind him over his shoulder.

362
00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:48.359
Oh, microbe.

363
00:18:48.420 --> 00:18:49.920
I do love that sequence.

364
00:18:49.980 --> 00:18:53.279
And obviously that's Spip and Jane Baker at the beginning of

365
00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:56.039
episode 14, but I also love it when they go through the waiting

366
00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:58.559
room and the doctor says, this is a very odd waiting room.

367
00:18:58.619 --> 00:19:00.119
I just love that particular one.

368
00:19:00.180 --> 00:19:02.819
I like the 2nd waiting room where I think Mel opens the door and

369
00:19:02.819 --> 00:19:03.539
there's a dragon.

370
00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:07.140
It is fabulously silly and random, isn't it?

371
00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:07.859
Yeah, yeah.

372
00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:12.240
And, you know, Colin and Bonnie are great together.

373
00:19:12.299 --> 00:19:13.920
And to Colin's great credit.

374
00:19:13.980 --> 00:19:17.519
When Bonnie comes into the trial room, he plays it differently

375
00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:20.220
than he plays it in vervoids, because in vervoids, they've known

376
00:19:20.220 --> 00:19:23.220
each other for ages and they have kind of verbal shorthand

377
00:19:23.220 --> 00:19:26.640
together and they bounce off each other, whereas here he's

378
00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:28.019
actually really wary of her.

379
00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:31.500
He calls her Melanie rather than Mel because he hasn't met her

380
00:19:31.500 --> 00:19:31.740
yet.

381
00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:34.259
And when he goes into the Matrix.

382
00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:35.640
He takes glitz with him.

383
00:19:35.700 --> 00:19:39.059
He doesn't take Mel because of Perry's death.

384
00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:41.519
And he knows Glitz and doesn't know Mel.

385
00:19:41.579 --> 00:19:42.059
Yeah.

386
00:19:42.119 --> 00:19:46.259
But also because Mel's a girl and we just need her to stand around

387
00:19:46.259 --> 00:19:48.119
rather than getting involved in the action.

388
00:19:48.180 --> 00:19:50.460
There's that hilarious bit, right?

389
00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:52.799
Where the keeper trips her over and you think, oh, that's a bit

390
00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:53.220
rubbish.

391
00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:56.460
But that is brilliantly cut down sort of 2 things later where he

392
00:19:56.460 --> 00:19:57.480
tries to trip her over again.

393
00:19:57.539 --> 00:20:00.420
It looks really pleased with himself and she kicks him in the shin

394
00:20:00.420 --> 00:20:01.259
and nicks the key.

395
00:20:01.319 --> 00:20:04.559
I really love that because you're like, that 1st one was crap.

396
00:20:04.619 --> 00:20:09.660
And she's like, well, full me once, shame on you, full me twice.

397
00:20:09.720 --> 00:20:10.740
I won't be fooled again.

398
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:12.660
I love the fact that you love all that.

399
00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:13.920
It's just so stupid.

400
00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:17.579
I actually think they're going, really?

401
00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:18.660
We're kicking each other.

402
00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:21.299
This is how we get into the matrix.

403
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:23.640
And, you know, a few minutes ago we talked about these wonderful

404
00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:26.940
lines that she has, like, she goes, you know, when the master goes

405
00:20:26.940 --> 00:20:28.019
one must destroy the utterance.

406
00:20:28.019 --> 00:20:31.200
She goes, how utterly evil, how utterly over the top.

407
00:20:31.259 --> 00:20:34.319
And then she goes, the value has taken...

408
00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:36.900
Advantage of the doctor's romantic nature.

409
00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:38.700
I just want to vomit at this.

410
00:20:38.819 --> 00:20:41.460
I actually think that there's there's another remember the

411
00:20:41.460 --> 00:20:44.400
Megarian who forgot to switch on his translator.

412
00:20:44.460 --> 00:20:48.059
There's another one of those scenes, which again makes no sense

413
00:20:48.059 --> 00:20:50.700
but Pip and Jane clearly think is sort of terribly clever.

414
00:20:50.759 --> 00:20:55.200
When it's the fake trial room, uh, and we pull back and we're in

415
00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:58.319
the real trial room watching the other trial room in the trial

416
00:20:58.319 --> 00:20:58.559
room.

417
00:20:58.680 --> 00:21:01.500
I just want to say before we go on criticising that, that's a

418
00:21:01.500 --> 00:21:06.660
beautiful shot, but she says that the doctor refuted the charge of

419
00:21:06.660 --> 00:21:10.859
genocide and then later on the doctor says, but that's how I knew

420
00:21:10.859 --> 00:21:13.799
it was all a simulation because you weren't there and you wouldn't

421
00:21:13.799 --> 00:21:14.940
have made that mistake.

422
00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:18.299
And you kind of go, well, actually, she wouldn't have made that

423
00:21:18.299 --> 00:21:18.779
mistake.

424
00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:21.960
How could she have made a mistake by accidentally remembering

425
00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:22.980
something that she didn't see?

426
00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:25.559
I mean, it all just kind of really makes no sense.

427
00:21:25.619 --> 00:21:29.759
And then, of course, it gets taken out in that sort of tumbl

428
00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:31.380
through the Victorian streets.

429
00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:34.980
You'd have to think the doctor would have twigged by then that he

430
00:21:34.980 --> 00:21:38.220
was in the Matrix if he's, you know, in a horse drawn carriage

431
00:21:38.220 --> 00:21:40.380
somehow on Gallifray.

432
00:21:40.740 --> 00:21:44.579
It's all just a bit inconsequential and all a bit of a runaround

433
00:21:44.579 --> 00:21:46.259
and it doesn't really go anywhere.

434
00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:50.759
And the moments that try and talk about the nature of the trial

435
00:21:50.759 --> 00:21:55.319
don't come off, that whole sort of sleepers thing, the reveal that

436
00:21:55.319 --> 00:21:59.700
Glitz does in episode 13 about Ravelocks and the sleepers and all

437
00:21:59.700 --> 00:22:02.400
of that makes just literally no sense at all.

438
00:22:02.460 --> 00:22:07.200
And there's no way that the valiard would have chosen that bit as

439
00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:11.460
a segment of prosecution evidence, if it contained all of this

440
00:22:11.460 --> 00:22:15.480
sort of stuff that was going to implicate the high council.

441
00:22:15.539 --> 00:22:17.460
No one's motive is clear.

442
00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:21.900
We're running around and escaping and falling into quicksand and

443
00:22:21.900 --> 00:22:25.019
stuff and it all just sort of falls to bits, doesn't it?

444
00:22:25.079 --> 00:22:29.940
Well, yes, I guess it does, but I can't help but like it.

445
00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:32.759
Oh, no, no, that's those 2 things aren't in any way

446
00:22:32.759 --> 00:22:33.660
contradictory.

447
00:22:33.720 --> 00:22:37.619
I actually really enjoy these 2 episodes, all the runaround, the

448
00:22:37.619 --> 00:22:41.880
fact there's action, and I like a lot of the visuals, and you also

449
00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:47.819
have like the keeper of the Matrix, played by James Bre, um, Oh

450
00:22:47.819 --> 00:22:49.440
what a stupid fool he is.

451
00:22:50.099 --> 00:22:52.619
Matrix, my Matrix?

452
00:22:52.740 --> 00:22:53.940
Please.

453
00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:56.940
And Popplewick, who I really love Popplewick.

454
00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:01.440
Yeah, I think Popplewick seems homes in, but we reckon he's by say

455
00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:02.220
we're doing.

456
00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:06.000
By the time the character was written, it was Saywood, but there

457
00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:07.920
was always that character in there.

458
00:23:07.980 --> 00:23:11.519
Do you think he was always going to be revealed as the valleyard

459
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:12.779
in a latex mask, though?

460
00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:15.420
I, you know what, I think probably not.

461
00:23:15.480 --> 00:23:19.380
But a lot changed from sort of conception to execution because in

462
00:23:19.380 --> 00:23:21.660
Robert Holmes' initial idea.

463
00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:23.339
The master was behind the whole trial.

464
00:23:23.460 --> 00:23:28.140
And Eric Saywood gave him the same advice he gave Terence Dix in

465
00:23:28.140 --> 00:23:31.079
the 5 doctors where he said, well, everyone's going to expect

466
00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:31.440
that.

467
00:23:31.740 --> 00:23:36.420
So, like in the 5 doctors, it was, no, let's have Barusa is the

468
00:23:36.420 --> 00:23:39.240
evil one rather than the master, and in this, say, it was like

469
00:23:39.240 --> 00:23:42.299
well, A, if as soon as the master turns up, everyone thinks he's

470
00:23:42.299 --> 00:23:45.599
created this, when he's actually just taken advantage of it, and B

471
00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:48.119
no, we've been establishing the Valiard as the villain for 12

472
00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:48.539
weeks.

473
00:23:48.599 --> 00:23:49.500
So that's what we need to have.

474
00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:51.119
And I think that's a very wise decision.

475
00:23:51.180 --> 00:23:54.779
Because as I said earlier, it gives Anthony Ainley's master, the

476
00:23:54.779 --> 00:23:59.400
rare opportunity to actually have a life outside of wanting the

477
00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:00.180
doctor dead.

478
00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:04.440
We get to see Anthony Ainley's master in his Tartars.

479
00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:06.420
Is that a different set?

480
00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:07.799
Like, or is it just like?

481
00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:09.299
No, it's the same set, painted black.

482
00:24:09.359 --> 00:24:12.599
So, um, what, they come in and they just planted the white set

483
00:24:12.599 --> 00:24:12.960
black?

484
00:24:13.019 --> 00:24:13.319
Yeah.

485
00:24:13.380 --> 00:24:14.940
And then paint it back again.

486
00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:16.019
And then paint it back again.

487
00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:17.460
Which is insanity.

488
00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:20.160
I believe that is also what they had to do on this occasion

489
00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:22.680
because this was filmed before vervoids.

490
00:24:22.740 --> 00:24:26.940
And vervoids was the 1st time we had seen it this season.

491
00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:28.500
We haven't seen it in the previous 2 stories.

492
00:24:28.799 --> 00:24:33.660
We also get to see in one of the worst props ever, which could

493
00:24:33.660 --> 00:24:37.079
have come out of a panto, which is the pirate treasure that glitz

494
00:24:37.079 --> 00:24:39.539
seems to be really enamoured with.

495
00:24:39.599 --> 00:24:44.099
It's just so rubbish. sort of plastic, rudely spray painted gold.

496
00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:47.400
Yes, yes, I just kind of go, oh, really?

497
00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:50.579
We have learned at least that the BBC budget does run to paint

498
00:24:50.579 --> 00:24:52.619
though, which is nice to know.

499
00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:57.119
Although, the whole thing with the pantomime chest is the master

500
00:24:57.119 --> 00:24:59.759
says, will this appeal to your crass soul?

501
00:24:59.819 --> 00:25:02.759
He knows he's dealing with someone who likes shiny baubles.

502
00:25:02.819 --> 00:25:05.759
I love the mastering glitz together in this.

503
00:25:05.880 --> 00:25:10.079
I mean, I think they're pretty good, but again, they're part of

504
00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:13.200
the plot involves sort of hypnotising the doctor and all sorts of

505
00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:16.920
really tiresome things that we've seen 100s of times before.

506
00:25:17.460 --> 00:25:20.940
And then Paul Pip and Jane Baker have to pull all of this stuff

507
00:25:20.940 --> 00:25:21.839
together, right?

508
00:25:21.900 --> 00:25:22.859
having not really been involved.

509
00:25:22.980 --> 00:25:27.059
And so we end up changing the premise where they're going to

510
00:25:27.059 --> 00:25:29.579
destroy all the time laws in the trial room, which is apparently

511
00:25:29.579 --> 00:25:34.140
going to cause this insurrection on Galifre, and the doctor

512
00:25:34.140 --> 00:25:36.359
discovers a megabyte modem.

513
00:25:36.420 --> 00:25:38.220
I don't even like, what is that?

514
00:25:38.279 --> 00:25:39.779
Did she have one of those in her house?

515
00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:40.680
Her modem.

516
00:25:40.740 --> 00:25:43.799
She was connected to the internet by a big steampunk wooden box

517
00:25:43.799 --> 00:25:45.119
with sort of flashing lights on it.

518
00:25:45.180 --> 00:25:49.079
If you watch their interview on the...

519
00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:50.279
Pip and Jane's box set.

520
00:25:50.339 --> 00:25:54.420
They go to great pains to say that they rang up some computer

521
00:25:54.420 --> 00:25:57.599
scientist people who came up with this wonderful idea for them

522
00:25:57.599 --> 00:25:57.839
right?

523
00:25:57.900 --> 00:26:00.480
But of course, we didn't have modems back then.

524
00:26:00.539 --> 00:26:03.779
So they've gone, well, we've got a thing called a modem, and then

525
00:26:03.779 --> 00:26:06.420
we know this term called megabyte, right?

526
00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:08.819
We're just going to put them together and Pip and Jane won't know

527
00:26:08.819 --> 00:26:10.440
the difference and, you know, there it is.

528
00:26:10.500 --> 00:26:14.640
Do you remember back in the day when on the back of exercise books

529
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:18.480
on the back cover, they would have common computer terms and it

530
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:21.660
would be things like cobalt and, you know, what a bite is and

531
00:26:21.660 --> 00:26:22.259
stuff like that.

532
00:26:22.500 --> 00:26:25.740
Yeah, I reckon someone...

533
00:26:25.799 --> 00:26:28.680
Yeah, yeah, they've just picked 2 of those words at random and put

534
00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:30.720
them together. it doesn't actually go anywhere.

535
00:26:30.779 --> 00:26:35.099
I mean, I guess the idea is to establish Mel as a computer

536
00:26:35.099 --> 00:26:36.180
scientist.

537
00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:38.160
Although, so she says computer-y things.

538
00:26:38.220 --> 00:26:39.180
Computery things.

539
00:26:39.240 --> 00:26:41.339
That's right, but it's not that at all.

540
00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:43.380
And then I don't understand what's going on.

541
00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:48.720
Like, it does seem that something happens in the trial room and

542
00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:52.500
all of these sort of video effect spidery things come out to

543
00:26:52.500 --> 00:26:55.859
attack everyone in the trial room and we have to evacuate the

544
00:26:55.859 --> 00:26:58.619
trial room and then something happens back in the Matrix and then

545
00:26:58.619 --> 00:26:59.160
we cut back.

546
00:26:59.220 --> 00:27:01.799
But instead of evacuating the trial room, they've all just sort of

547
00:27:01.799 --> 00:27:02.880
fallen over on their desks.

548
00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:05.279
Yeah, because they can't move in those collars.

549
00:27:05.339 --> 00:27:07.200
Yeah, maybe that's they're there for the day.

550
00:27:07.259 --> 00:27:09.779
There's a ray phase shift.

551
00:27:09.839 --> 00:27:10.500
Is that?

552
00:27:10.500 --> 00:27:11.940
It's triggered a ray phase shift.

553
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:14.279
And so are those rays coming out of that thing?

554
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:17.099
And so the screen's going to explode and all they can do is bow

555
00:27:17.099 --> 00:27:20.339
down and have their their special Time Lord helmety things protect

556
00:27:20.339 --> 00:27:20.519
them.

557
00:27:20.579 --> 00:27:21.480
Oh maybe that's it.

558
00:27:21.539 --> 00:27:23.339
It's Galafrand, duck and cover.

559
00:27:23.400 --> 00:27:24.059
That's what those are for.

560
00:27:24.119 --> 00:27:25.200
Yeah maybe that's it.

561
00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:27.000
But then it doesn't disseminate anyway.

562
00:27:27.059 --> 00:27:30.299
I mean, the valliard just kind of falls over and stuff.

563
00:27:30.299 --> 00:27:33.720
It doesn't get... pulls over and puts his hand out as if to say, ah

564
00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:34.859
yeah, no, it's...

565
00:27:34.859 --> 00:27:35.579
Which is another good shot.

566
00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:37.200
Yes, I agree.

567
00:27:37.259 --> 00:27:41.519
Okay, how I understand that scene, and I totally get that, it

568
00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:43.619
frustrates people even to this day.

569
00:27:43.680 --> 00:27:47.039
So Mel opens the cupboard and she says, it's a megabyte modem.

570
00:27:47.099 --> 00:27:49.380
And the doctor comes in and says, it's amazing.

571
00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:51.119
I think the missing word is there no.

572
00:27:51.180 --> 00:27:53.579
No, it's amazing.

573
00:27:53.579 --> 00:27:55.019
Yeah, that's the thing.

574
00:27:55.079 --> 00:27:58.019
She's meant to get it wrong because part of her character brief is

575
00:27:58.019 --> 00:28:00.180
despite the fact she's a computer programmer, she can't work the

576
00:28:00.180 --> 00:28:00.720
TARDIS.

577
00:28:00.779 --> 00:28:02.460
So she doesn't know Gallifran technology.

578
00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:05.940
Why she would think a modem with her, you know, even if you look

579
00:28:05.940 --> 00:28:09.720
at a 56 K modem from the 90s, the lights are not that big.

580
00:28:09.779 --> 00:28:12.660
No, they look like they're from the top of a police car.

581
00:28:12.779 --> 00:28:13.799
Yeah, it's ridiculous.

582
00:28:13.859 --> 00:28:17.640
So it is amazing, which is another acronym that Pip and Jane Baker

583
00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:19.319
liked to educate us.

584
00:28:19.380 --> 00:28:19.980
Yeah.

585
00:28:19.980 --> 00:28:23.279
Well, Maze's were an established thing, especially in Japanese

586
00:28:23.279 --> 00:28:24.299
science fiction.

587
00:28:24.359 --> 00:28:28.859
Kaiju films, Godzilla, Gamera, had mazes and were matter

588
00:28:28.859 --> 00:28:31.079
amplification through stimulated emission of radiation.

589
00:28:31.140 --> 00:28:34.440
It's a laser, but instead of using light, it uses matter.

590
00:28:34.500 --> 00:28:37.380
I suppose in Star Trek that might call it, a particle beam.

591
00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:38.220
Maybe.

592
00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:39.180
Maybe.

593
00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:42.059
Yeah, it's meant to disseminate.

594
00:28:42.119 --> 00:28:46.200
And the doctor realises that the matrix screen is the conduit.

595
00:28:46.259 --> 00:28:51.420
So, again, I think it's a slight attempt to be a little bit

596
00:28:51.420 --> 00:28:54.839
metatextual in that the television is now dangerous and the

597
00:28:54.839 --> 00:28:58.079
television will send rays out, which will get you, which was

598
00:28:58.079 --> 00:29:00.660
something horror films were doing at the time, Halloween 3 season

599
00:29:00.660 --> 00:29:03.720
of The Witch, and the Nightmare on Elm Street in particular have a

600
00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:05.220
few television related deaths in them.

601
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:08.160
You must have felt that way about the television screen towards

602
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:12.660
the end of your sort of marathon live tweets. story.

603
00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:17.039
The thing is like Todd, I watched these last 2 episodes and it's

604
00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:19.920
actually a wonderful romp and the energy really picks up.

605
00:29:19.980 --> 00:29:22.859
And if you look back on it later, you go, what's a megabyte

606
00:29:22.859 --> 00:29:23.220
modem?

607
00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:24.660
Why wasn't anyone disseminated?

608
00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:28.380
And I think the whole thing with the ray phase shift is actually

609
00:29:28.380 --> 00:29:30.420
related to black holes and singularities.

610
00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:35.039
When light is stretched through a black hole, that is related to a

611
00:29:35.039 --> 00:29:36.059
ray phase shift.

612
00:29:36.119 --> 00:29:41.819
So the idea is that in, to quote, to quote Stephen Moffatt.

613
00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:45.000
The megabyte modem slash mazer will not only explode, it will

614
00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:45.660
implode.

615
00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:49.500
It really does look like just here's a random assortment of half

616
00:29:49.500 --> 00:29:52.500
understood scientific terms, which we're going to throw at the

617
00:29:52.500 --> 00:29:53.759
dialogue at this point.

618
00:29:53.819 --> 00:29:57.299
Yeah, I mean, episode 14 is 5 minutes over.

619
00:29:57.359 --> 00:29:58.980
It's almost 30 minutes long.

620
00:29:59.039 --> 00:29:59.579
Yeah.

621
00:29:59.579 --> 00:30:02.099
It was originally, I think, about 42.

622
00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:06.900
So I think a lot of the explanation is cut and it is just made a

623
00:30:06.900 --> 00:30:07.859
Doctor Who thing off.

624
00:30:07.859 --> 00:30:12.539
It's going to explode and that's bad and there's going to be

625
00:30:12.539 --> 00:30:13.319
little squiggles.

626
00:30:13.380 --> 00:30:17.819
But at the same time, I can kind of watch it and go, okay, I can

627
00:30:17.819 --> 00:30:18.839
see what you're trying to do.

628
00:30:18.900 --> 00:30:20.339
I don't think you quite pull it off.

629
00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:25.079
But I think you don't quite pull it off in a much better way than

630
00:30:25.079 --> 00:30:29.099
terminus doesn't quite pull it off with the whole, if we don't

631
00:30:29.099 --> 00:30:33.180
move this lever back to the start, with a dog robot, then the

632
00:30:33.180 --> 00:30:35.579
universe will be destroyed.

633
00:30:35.640 --> 00:30:37.920
Yeah, that's peak word peril right there, isn't it?

634
00:30:37.980 --> 00:30:40.140
So then we get the ending.

635
00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:43.259
Where 2 things.

636
00:30:43.319 --> 00:30:49.440
First of all, Perry is living as warrior queen with Yakanos.

637
00:30:49.500 --> 00:30:52.859
And I think we did talk about that when we did Mind Warp.

638
00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:57.180
I think it doesn't help and it's just, you know, adding insult to

639
00:30:57.180 --> 00:30:57.900
injury at this point.

640
00:30:57.960 --> 00:31:01.019
But it's also one of the reasons why Eric Seyward also left

641
00:31:01.019 --> 00:31:04.319
because John Nathan Turner wanted happy endings and that was not

642
00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:05.339
part of the original breed.

643
00:31:05.460 --> 00:31:06.180
Yeah, yeah.

644
00:31:06.299 --> 00:31:09.720
I think Eric's exact words were panto walkdown ending.

645
00:31:09.779 --> 00:31:11.400
Why couldn't it have been something a bit different?

646
00:31:11.460 --> 00:31:12.539
Like she could have got back to earth.

647
00:31:12.539 --> 00:31:15.720
Well, because we don't know all of that stuff could have been all

648
00:31:15.720 --> 00:31:16.619
you know, faked.

649
00:31:16.680 --> 00:31:19.680
The ending of it could have been the doctor did actually save the

650
00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:21.839
day and Perry said, I've had enough return me home.

651
00:31:21.900 --> 00:31:23.519
I think it is what we said the other week.

652
00:31:23.579 --> 00:31:27.359
It's Andrew Hodson's contract casino or whatever we said.

653
00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:28.079
Contract roulette.

654
00:31:28.140 --> 00:31:29.039
Contract roulette.

655
00:31:29.099 --> 00:31:29.640
That was it.

656
00:31:29.700 --> 00:31:32.940
It's just she happened to be with Jokanos at the end.

657
00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:35.579
You know, they had a nice scene together.

658
00:31:35.640 --> 00:31:40.319
We decided very ill advisedly that that was the basis for happy or

659
00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:45.599
indeed acceptable marriage and will tinged the screen a bit pink

660
00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:46.859
and everything will be okay.

661
00:31:46.920 --> 00:31:50.460
The novelisation of Mind Warp does it much, much better.

662
00:31:50.579 --> 00:31:55.500
So the final chapter of the novelisation ends with the courtroom

663
00:31:55.500 --> 00:31:58.259
actually emptying and the doctors just left there standing alone

664
00:31:58.259 --> 00:32:03.900
and utterly distraught by himself with no one to comfort him.

665
00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:10.200
The epilogue is then Perry is back in the States and a time storm

666
00:32:10.200 --> 00:32:10.859
whipped up.

667
00:32:10.920 --> 00:32:12.420
She's back there with Yakanos.

668
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:13.619
She doesn't know how she got back there.

669
00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:15.000
She doesn't know what's happened to the doctor.

670
00:32:15.059 --> 00:32:17.700
She hopes he's okay, but she's his wrestling manager.

671
00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:21.420
She's Yukanos' wrestling manager and she's just had to explain to

672
00:32:21.420 --> 00:32:23.579
him, no, you don't actually kill people.

673
00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:28.140
It's just pretend, but he's very happy because people seem to be

674
00:32:28.140 --> 00:32:28.680
happy with it.

675
00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:30.900
And you know, sometimes she thinks about the doctor.

676
00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:33.000
And in that ending as well.

677
00:32:33.059 --> 00:32:35.759
There's a hint of romance between them, but it's not really

678
00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:37.019
overtly stated.

679
00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:39.480
It's just that she's very fond of Yukanos.

680
00:32:39.539 --> 00:32:42.960
And so we get our cake and we eat it as well in that ending

681
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:45.059
because the doctor doesn't know what's happened to her.

682
00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:48.900
So we get the emotional impact of her death.

683
00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:52.920
But then we find out that she's had an unconventional ending.

684
00:32:52.980 --> 00:32:57.720
She hasn't just been married off, which was Nicola's like one

685
00:32:57.720 --> 00:32:59.099
demand was don't marry me off.

686
00:32:59.220 --> 00:33:01.740
And she's happy.

687
00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:06.900
Um, there's there's a great bit on the DVD where they record a

688
00:33:06.900 --> 00:33:10.079
commentary just for that reveal scene at the end with Colin and

689
00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:10.680
Nicola.

690
00:33:10.740 --> 00:33:13.859
And I think it's called a fate worse than death, i.e. being

691
00:33:13.859 --> 00:33:15.240
married to Brian Blessard.

692
00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:18.720
Nicola all the way through is just like, yeah, yeah.

693
00:33:18.779 --> 00:33:21.660
Yeah, they decided to do this.

694
00:33:21.720 --> 00:33:22.799
Oh god, yes.

695
00:33:22.859 --> 00:33:23.279
Okay.

696
00:33:23.460 --> 00:33:25.619
Colin's laughing his head off.

697
00:33:26.160 --> 00:33:30.539
And then we've got the 6th doctor and Mel going into the TARDIS

698
00:33:30.539 --> 00:33:33.420
with, of course, his last lines, characters, characters

699
00:33:33.420 --> 00:33:33.960
characters.

700
00:33:34.019 --> 00:33:36.660
But there's no attempt to even say, well, well, I need to return

701
00:33:36.660 --> 00:33:37.140
you home.

702
00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:41.400
Look, as a fan, as a continuity person, I just kind of go, look

703
00:33:41.400 --> 00:33:44.819
couldn't he have returned to home, like, because we've only got 2

704
00:33:44.819 --> 00:33:46.140
episodes, we don't even have time to do that.

705
00:33:46.259 --> 00:33:49.380
I also think it is just that they don't care.

706
00:33:49.500 --> 00:33:54.900
And it probably has something to do with the fact that there's

707
00:33:54.900 --> 00:33:58.680
this sort of hastily rewritten ending, we weren't going to have

708
00:33:58.680 --> 00:34:02.640
the doctor and Mel get into the Tardisan leave originally at the

709
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:07.259
end of the trial, but now we have to do it and any dialogue about

710
00:34:07.259 --> 00:34:11.219
returning her would have been kind of a bit leaden and

711
00:34:11.219 --> 00:34:12.300
uninteresting at the end.

712
00:34:12.360 --> 00:34:18.360
But there is this sense we don't get to see Mel meet the doctor

713
00:34:18.360 --> 00:34:21.599
you know, next year when she leaves him, she leaves him for no

714
00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:22.440
reason at all.

715
00:34:22.500 --> 00:34:23.579
Her contracts are.

716
00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:27.420
And so she's really kind of poorly served, I think.

717
00:34:27.480 --> 00:34:30.659
And her backstory makes no sense at all.

718
00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:35.219
Gary Russell wrote a novel called Business Unusual, in which he

719
00:34:35.219 --> 00:34:39.239
tried to kind of write a story where they meet that was in some

720
00:34:39.239 --> 00:34:42.780
way consistent with the kind of character outline that had been

721
00:34:42.780 --> 00:34:43.019
written.

722
00:34:43.079 --> 00:34:45.659
The thing is, though, even the ultimate foe, isn't consistent with

723
00:34:45.659 --> 00:34:47.880
the character outline that was written because in a character

724
00:34:47.880 --> 00:34:51.360
outline, she meets the doctor during a story involving the

725
00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:51.840
master.

726
00:34:51.900 --> 00:34:55.500
And in the ultimate foe, she sees the master and says, who's

727
00:34:55.500 --> 00:34:55.679
that?

728
00:34:55.739 --> 00:34:57.360
Yeah, yeah, she's never heard of him.

729
00:34:57.420 --> 00:35:00.780
And not only that, but he sent her there.

730
00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:03.480
So as it says in the discontinuity guide.

731
00:35:03.539 --> 00:35:05.579
It appears that some force has been involved.

732
00:35:05.639 --> 00:35:08.519
He didn't just ask her to get into the casket nicely.

733
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:11.400
That's it.

734
00:35:11.460 --> 00:35:13.380
None of it, none of it makes any sense at all.

735
00:35:13.440 --> 00:35:15.059
And they don't care.

736
00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:17.039
It's just, we've got Bonnie Langford in.

737
00:35:17.099 --> 00:35:18.420
She's the Doctor Who girl now.

738
00:35:18.480 --> 00:35:22.500
We don't really care about her as a character in a drama.

739
00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:26.340
It's a bit of a throwback to, you know, the late heart and all

740
00:35:26.340 --> 00:35:26.820
era.

741
00:35:26.820 --> 00:35:29.400
Or, you know, the 60s where they're just sort of dumping people

742
00:35:29.400 --> 00:35:30.599
left, right?

743
00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:33.659
And centre in the middle of a story when their contract ended.

744
00:35:33.719 --> 00:35:37.380
Or, you know, that terrible Graham Williams thing where he kind of

745
00:35:37.380 --> 00:35:42.000
forgets to contract anyone except for Tom for season 17.

746
00:35:42.840 --> 00:35:45.360
So, you know, I think it's pretty unfortunate.

747
00:35:45.420 --> 00:35:49.320
And Mel suffers not only from that because we don't know what

748
00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:51.900
she's like as a person before she meets the doctor.

749
00:35:51.900 --> 00:35:58.500
And she suffers from the fact that of her 1st 10 episodes, 9 of

750
00:35:58.500 --> 00:36:01.619
them are written by Pip and Jane Baker who can't do dialogues.

751
00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:03.539
So it's unfortunate.

752
00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:04.320
I like her.

753
00:36:04.440 --> 00:36:07.920
I think she's very charming and she's got a lot of charisma as a

754
00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:12.719
performer, but she doesn't get to be a character really at any

755
00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:13.559
stage.

756
00:36:13.619 --> 00:36:16.320
Yeah, the only thing that really saves me as a character is Bonnie

757
00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:16.800
Langford.

758
00:36:16.860 --> 00:36:22.260
Because, and the strange thing is, other actors who have come into

759
00:36:22.260 --> 00:36:25.320
Doctor Who have approached it with reverence and not necessarily

760
00:36:25.320 --> 00:36:26.219
done so well.

761
00:36:26.280 --> 00:36:29.280
You know, I'm thinking maybe of Matthew Waterhouse, who was very

762
00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:34.500
reverent to the program, but was given, I would say, character

763
00:36:34.500 --> 00:36:38.039
material as deficient as the character material Mel is given.

764
00:36:38.099 --> 00:36:43.079
And yet not constructed as clear a character because even though

765
00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:46.139
Mel doesn't get much character in her dialogue, you know, you look

766
00:36:46.139 --> 00:36:49.500
at Bonnie and the way Bonnie plays her, she's like, right, I'm

767
00:36:49.500 --> 00:36:52.619
enthusiastic, I'm prone to being scared, but I recover quickly.

768
00:36:52.679 --> 00:36:56.579
There are distinct elements to her personality you can pull out

769
00:36:56.579 --> 00:36:59.460
whereas Adric, you're like, oh, he's a bit sulky, and then you

770
00:36:59.460 --> 00:37:02.280
wonder, well, is he being sulky, or is Matthew Waterhouse being

771
00:37:02.280 --> 00:37:02.820
sulky?

772
00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:06.480
But I mean, think about Adric, and even think about Nissa and

773
00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:10.679
Tegan, all of whom are really foregrounded in their 1st story.

774
00:37:10.739 --> 00:37:14.699
We get to see them in their own world, in their own context before

775
00:37:14.699 --> 00:37:15.420
they join the doctor.

776
00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:20.039
And season 18 is very, very careful about the introduction of all

777
00:37:20.039 --> 00:37:21.000
of those characters.

778
00:37:21.059 --> 00:37:23.219
And then who's the next person to be introduced?

779
00:37:23.340 --> 00:37:24.300
Turlow, again?

780
00:37:24.360 --> 00:37:27.360
You know, even though he's really sketchily outlined.

781
00:37:27.420 --> 00:37:29.460
You know, we don't know really where he comes from or anything

782
00:37:29.460 --> 00:37:30.480
very much about him.

783
00:37:30.539 --> 00:37:35.280
A lot of care is taken to introduce what kind of person he is.

784
00:37:35.880 --> 00:37:37.440
That's very true.

785
00:37:37.500 --> 00:37:42.000
You know, we're we're recording this the day before.

786
00:37:42.059 --> 00:37:43.320
Can I say this?

787
00:37:43.380 --> 00:37:47.219
We're recording this the day before the pilot comes out

788
00:37:47.219 --> 00:37:49.800
introducing Pearl Mackey's character, Bill.

789
00:37:49.860 --> 00:37:54.420
And we know from just all the pre-publicity stuff that the 1st

790
00:37:54.420 --> 00:37:58.679
episode is very largely going to be about introducing her and

791
00:37:58.679 --> 00:38:01.559
giving her an in into the doctor's world.

792
00:38:01.619 --> 00:38:04.199
And that's the right approach.

793
00:38:04.260 --> 00:38:07.440
I think, think about the 1st episode of Doctor Who, which is all

794
00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:11.519
about Barbara and Ian discovering the doctor and ending up in his

795
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:12.539
world.

796
00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:14.039
And we don't bother to do that anymore.

797
00:38:14.099 --> 00:38:18.420
Yeah, and really, there was no reason that terror of the vervoids

798
00:38:18.420 --> 00:38:22.019
couldn't have been written with Mel as the stewardess aboard the

799
00:38:22.019 --> 00:38:22.500
Hyperion 3.

800
00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:27.119
You know, she didn't have to be the 1980s computer programmer.

801
00:38:27.179 --> 00:38:30.599
If she's a stewardess aboard the Hyperion 3, a 1000 years in the

802
00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:32.519
future, it'd be quite understandable that she would have some

803
00:38:32.519 --> 00:38:33.239
computer knowledge.

804
00:38:33.300 --> 00:38:35.340
Yeah she'd know what a megabyte modem was.

805
00:38:35.400 --> 00:38:36.119
Yeah, exactly.

806
00:38:36.179 --> 00:38:39.480
And then she stows away at the end and the value I could say, ah

807
00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:40.440
well, you've taken another companion.

808
00:38:40.500 --> 00:38:41.699
The doctor says, well, it wasn't my choice.

809
00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:45.719
You know, you can see she stowed away and then she turns up in

810
00:38:45.719 --> 00:38:47.880
there and we have an introduction story for her.

811
00:38:47.940 --> 00:38:48.480
And you know what?

812
00:38:48.539 --> 00:38:49.980
That has never occurred to me before.

813
00:38:50.099 --> 00:38:53.340
I just came up with that in the last 10 seconds he was talking.

814
00:38:53.579 --> 00:38:57.659
As for what we get instead where he wanders off with her at the

815
00:38:57.659 --> 00:39:00.179
end, you know, I thought for years, okay, the reason they haven't

816
00:39:00.179 --> 00:39:03.900
done a drop Mel back off with her own doctor is, you know, they

817
00:39:03.900 --> 00:39:06.420
have to set up a scene and do that and blah, blah, blah.

818
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:10.079
And again, I just thought, well, no, put Colin in his verboids

819
00:39:10.079 --> 00:39:13.980
costume, and while the doctor is talking to the inquisitor in the

820
00:39:13.980 --> 00:39:17.460
courtroom, Another 6 doctor pokes his head around the door in the

821
00:39:17.460 --> 00:39:19.980
vervoids outfit and says, oh, Mel, I've been looking everywhere

822
00:39:19.980 --> 00:39:20.639
for you.

823
00:39:20.699 --> 00:39:21.179
Come on.

824
00:39:21.239 --> 00:39:24.360
And as she runs out, the inquisitor is just like, what?

825
00:39:24.420 --> 00:39:25.920
Well, she is from my future, you know.

826
00:39:25.980 --> 00:39:28.920
Time for me to be off, and the other Colin leaves as well, and you

827
00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:31.800
get like maybe 2 Tartises next to each other disappearing at the

828
00:39:31.800 --> 00:39:32.159
same time.

829
00:39:32.219 --> 00:39:35.880
And that, I think, gets the idea across without having to set up

830
00:39:35.880 --> 00:39:39.420
this whole scene and without having to have the leaden dialogue of

831
00:39:39.420 --> 00:39:40.260
come along, Mel.

832
00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:43.019
And with the resources they have, they don't have to hire any

833
00:39:43.019 --> 00:39:44.940
other actors will build any extra sets.

834
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:48.659
I had to see that vervoid tie again, though.

835
00:39:48.719 --> 00:39:51.000
Oh, no, no, no, I don't want to go back there.

836
00:39:51.179 --> 00:39:57.239
And then we get the very typical Pip and Jane Baker ending where

837
00:39:57.239 --> 00:40:00.360
they like to end on some sort of cliffhanger note. right?

838
00:40:00.420 --> 00:40:03.239
Where, of course, you know, everything's wrapped up, the

839
00:40:03.239 --> 00:40:06.360
inquisitor, I think, is going to take charge of Gallifrey or

840
00:40:06.360 --> 00:40:07.739
whatever she's going to do.

841
00:40:07.800 --> 00:40:10.619
And I really do love Linda Bellingham in these 2 episodes.

842
00:40:10.679 --> 00:40:13.619
It's nice to see you actually walk into the out of the trial room

843
00:40:13.619 --> 00:40:16.260
and then back into the trial room rather than just sitting behind

844
00:40:16.260 --> 00:40:17.099
her at desk.

845
00:40:17.159 --> 00:40:18.480
Poor love.

846
00:40:18.539 --> 00:40:22.019
And then we get the final sequence of the keeper.

847
00:40:22.019 --> 00:40:24.900
And then him turning to the camera to reveal.

848
00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:27.599
It was the van.

849
00:40:27.659 --> 00:40:29.039
Do you think he was the val all along?

850
00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:31.800
I always thought he came out on one of those squiggly line

851
00:40:31.800 --> 00:40:32.159
things.

852
00:40:32.820 --> 00:40:36.780
Because as he collapses, you see one go into his face and fly out

853
00:40:36.780 --> 00:40:37.199
of his face.

854
00:40:37.260 --> 00:40:41.159
So you reckon he just smacks James Bre on the head, you know, and

855
00:40:41.159 --> 00:40:42.719
took his clothes.

856
00:40:42.780 --> 00:40:46.139
Maybe there's a naked James Breed trussed up in a cupboard

857
00:40:46.139 --> 00:40:47.099
somewhere on that space station.

858
00:40:47.159 --> 00:40:48.300
Don't tell Richard Franklin.

859
00:40:48.360 --> 00:40:49.019
Maybe now.

860
00:40:49.079 --> 00:40:50.099
Maybe even now.

861
00:40:50.159 --> 00:40:52.679
I don't know what to say.

862
00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:57.360
Look, the master alludes to the valiant's got control of the

863
00:40:57.360 --> 00:40:57.900
matrix.

864
00:40:57.960 --> 00:41:01.860
So why can't he then be like the keeper of the Matrix?

865
00:41:01.980 --> 00:41:04.079
Like, I'm thinking back to the pirate plant.

866
00:41:04.139 --> 00:41:06.719
You know, you have like that old queen and then her young nurse

867
00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:08.219
projection, like that sort of thing.

868
00:41:08.280 --> 00:41:11.280
That's how I've always thought of it, like a projection of him, but

869
00:41:11.280 --> 00:41:13.019
with just with a different face.

870
00:41:13.079 --> 00:41:15.659
And then when it comes to it, you know, he has escaped because

871
00:41:15.659 --> 00:41:17.940
he's in control of the Matrix and he's from the Matrix.

872
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:21.360
And I do think that Michael, Jason does a great James Bri voice

873
00:41:21.360 --> 00:41:21.599
you know?

874
00:41:21.659 --> 00:41:23.579
Because when he goes, yes, my lady.

875
00:41:23.639 --> 00:41:25.800
I actually thought it was like, yeah, yeah.

876
00:41:26.340 --> 00:41:28.079
Yeah, you think there's something odd about his voice, but you

877
00:41:28.079 --> 00:41:29.760
don't immediately think it's Michael Jason.

878
00:41:29.820 --> 00:41:33.059
And Todd, I think you might be onto something there because...

879
00:41:33.059 --> 00:41:38.039
The keeper is constantly denying the possibility that anyone's

880
00:41:38.039 --> 00:41:40.139
broken into the Matrix, and he's constantly denying the

881
00:41:40.139 --> 00:41:42.539
possibility that someone can be based in the Matrix, and when it

882
00:41:42.539 --> 00:41:44.940
happens, he just goes, oh, I'm terribly surprised about that.

883
00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:47.039
Yeah, maybe you're right, Todd.

884
00:41:47.099 --> 00:41:49.860
Maybe he's not the stumbling buffoon he appears, but he's just

885
00:41:49.860 --> 00:41:53.039
another popplewick style servant of the valleyard.

886
00:41:53.099 --> 00:41:54.059
Maybe.

887
00:41:54.119 --> 00:41:55.559
I think it's a cute ending.

888
00:41:55.619 --> 00:41:57.119
I do like it.

889
00:41:57.239 --> 00:42:00.239
Like, it's great that, you know, throughout the trial, we've had

890
00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:03.480
so many zooms on the doctor's face, you know, constantly

891
00:42:03.480 --> 00:42:06.780
constantly, and in episode 13, you know, you've got the, no, when

892
00:42:06.780 --> 00:42:07.559
he's going to the centre.

893
00:42:07.619 --> 00:42:08.639
Oh, I hate, but here.

894
00:42:08.699 --> 00:42:09.960
Sorry, go on.

895
00:42:10.019 --> 00:42:11.940
But it still ends.

896
00:42:11.940 --> 00:42:13.559
On the doctor's space.

897
00:42:13.619 --> 00:42:14.880
Yes, it's just a different face.

898
00:42:14.940 --> 00:42:15.719
It's brilliant.

899
00:42:15.780 --> 00:42:17.519
The reason I hate that.

900
00:42:18.119 --> 00:42:20.340
Is Colin's fat tongue?

901
00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:21.420
Well, no, no.

902
00:42:21.480 --> 00:42:22.139
That's fine.

903
00:42:22.199 --> 00:42:24.659
Colin sells the danger well in that moment.

904
00:42:24.719 --> 00:42:28.260
But you're just like, oh, for goodness sake, fortify yourself

905
00:42:28.260 --> 00:42:28.559
man.

906
00:42:28.619 --> 00:42:31.440
You've had a train barrelling down on you in the Matrix and you

907
00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:31.980
didn't scream.

908
00:42:32.039 --> 00:42:32.760
No.

909
00:42:32.820 --> 00:42:35.639
You're just sinking, for God's sake.

910
00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:37.800
And, you know, you've distributed your weight.

911
00:42:37.860 --> 00:42:38.699
Don't struggle.

912
00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:40.980
Certainly don't wiggle your butt into it the way you do.

913
00:42:41.039 --> 00:42:43.679
You're not gonna sink if you remain calm.

914
00:42:43.739 --> 00:42:46.079
If you just stand there screaming. when your spats get covered in

915
00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:46.320
mud.

916
00:42:46.380 --> 00:42:49.139
It's a mess, that scene. really poorly realised.

917
00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:50.400
I think it's poorly directed.

918
00:42:50.460 --> 00:42:53.699
Like, because Paul Colin has to collapse down and then you see him

919
00:42:53.699 --> 00:42:56.940
actually move one of those hands to grab his side.

920
00:42:57.000 --> 00:43:01.079
Much like that creature in mind where, you know, where he has to

921
00:43:01.079 --> 00:43:05.039
move his hand to make it obvious with the gun, the URAC or

922
00:43:05.039 --> 00:43:05.400
whatever.

923
00:43:05.460 --> 00:43:07.800
It's the same sort of thing where it's like it's the direction

924
00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:09.840
letting down what has to happen.

925
00:43:09.900 --> 00:43:10.380
Yeah.

926
00:43:10.380 --> 00:43:16.619
So, um, ratings wise with this, um, 4.400000 viewers tuned in to

927
00:43:16.619 --> 00:43:21.900
episode 13 and then 5.600000 for the final episode, coming 80th.

928
00:43:21.960 --> 00:43:24.000
So the highest rating of the season is the last.

929
00:43:24.059 --> 00:43:28.739
And it's the only time that the show preceding Doctor Who, Roland

930
00:43:28.739 --> 00:43:30.659
Rattle, whatever it was, was actually in the top 100.

931
00:43:30.900 --> 00:43:31.679
Right?

932
00:43:31.739 --> 00:43:34.380
So the only time it gives it a bit of a boost.

933
00:43:34.440 --> 00:43:37.679
But it is interesting that, you know, I think there is viewer

934
00:43:37.679 --> 00:43:43.139
fatigue after 12, 13 weeks that you suddenly go from 5.2 or 5.3

935
00:43:43.139 --> 00:43:47.219
the end of vervoids, then there is like literally almost a 1000000

936
00:43:47.219 --> 00:43:47.880
viewers less.

937
00:43:47.940 --> 00:43:52.199
How are we promoting this, the final 2 episodes of the trial that

938
00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:54.360
people are going, well, we're still at another week, we can tune

939
00:43:54.360 --> 00:43:55.440
in next week, I guess, to see.

940
00:43:55.500 --> 00:43:58.739
And it's back to the whole argument that this whole concept of

941
00:43:58.739 --> 00:44:03.059
having one story just doesn't lend itself to having new people

942
00:44:03.059 --> 00:44:04.559
come in during the season.

943
00:44:04.619 --> 00:44:07.860
And the one I described is that I think the ratings are soft

944
00:44:07.860 --> 00:44:08.519
right?

945
00:44:08.579 --> 00:44:11.039
There's some episodes that are higher than five, but then you'll

946
00:44:11.039 --> 00:44:13.800
get one that does dip down to the mid fours.

947
00:44:13.860 --> 00:44:17.460
You can't just draw a line of best fit to say that the audience is

948
00:44:17.460 --> 00:44:18.900
actually increasing week to week.

949
00:44:19.260 --> 00:44:24.119
The overall rating for the season is 4.8 million, right, which is

950
00:44:24.119 --> 00:44:26.219
2200000 down from last season.

951
00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:29.460
Like next year, we're going back to what, you know, they said

952
00:44:29.460 --> 00:44:31.440
they're going to go do a traditional format this year.

953
00:44:31.500 --> 00:44:33.480
Next year, they're going back to individual stories.

954
00:44:33.539 --> 00:44:37.019
And what you get is you get 5.one coming in to see the new

955
00:44:37.019 --> 00:44:37.440
doctor.

956
00:44:37.500 --> 00:44:40.739
Then there is a drop to 4.24.3.

957
00:44:40.920 --> 00:44:43.320
And episode one of Power.

958
00:44:43.320 --> 00:44:44.760
Power gets 4.5.

959
00:44:44.940 --> 00:44:46.679
But episode 2 gets 5.2.

960
00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:47.219
Right.

961
00:44:47.219 --> 00:44:49.619
So people are going into work in school and talking about it.

962
00:44:49.679 --> 00:44:55.860
And then indulge in Banham, 5.3 for episode one for Dragonfire, 5.5

963
00:44:55.860 --> 00:45:00.000
and all of our episodes from that 5.2 onwards are above 5000000

964
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:01.739
except for the last episode of the season.

965
00:45:01.800 --> 00:45:05.280
If you draw a line of best fit, you can actually see this gradual

966
00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:05.760
increase.

967
00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:07.679
It's a new story.

968
00:45:07.739 --> 00:45:09.480
You can tune into a new story.

969
00:45:09.539 --> 00:45:10.619
It's not this.

970
00:45:10.679 --> 00:45:11.699
Oh it's still going on business.

971
00:45:11.760 --> 00:45:12.360
Yeah.

972
00:45:12.480 --> 00:45:16.500
A big problem I have with this story and you've both just touched

973
00:45:16.500 --> 00:45:17.039
on it now.

974
00:45:17.099 --> 00:45:22.980
It feels very enclosed and private and claustrophobic.

975
00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:26.460
You know, we do have guest cast.

976
00:45:26.519 --> 00:45:29.219
But 2 of the 3 guest cast.

977
00:45:29.280 --> 00:45:31.260
The mastering glitz are characters we've seen before.

978
00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:33.239
And Popplewick is a cypher.

979
00:45:33.300 --> 00:45:35.699
He's not really a character for plot reasons.

980
00:45:36.420 --> 00:45:42.480
Whereas the previous 3 stories, there has really been an attempt

981
00:45:42.480 --> 00:45:46.739
and I would argue some success in creating distinct identifiable

982
00:45:46.739 --> 00:45:49.619
worlds which these characters live in.

983
00:45:49.679 --> 00:45:52.440
You know, we praised, for instance, the characterisation of

984
00:45:52.440 --> 00:45:57.659
Katrika and Humker and Tandril and even Murdine.

985
00:45:57.719 --> 00:45:59.579
You know, these were people we believed in.

986
00:45:59.579 --> 00:46:05.099
In mind warp, we spoke about Madame Katrona and Crozier and Frax

987
00:46:05.099 --> 00:46:07.860
and how each time we watch it, we kind of come away with a bit

988
00:46:07.860 --> 00:46:08.699
more appreciation.

989
00:46:08.820 --> 00:46:10.500
Sils in that, I mean...

990
00:46:10.559 --> 00:46:11.039
Yeah, of course.

991
00:46:11.099 --> 00:46:14.460
And Lord Kiv as well, you know, dead worse than that.

992
00:46:14.519 --> 00:46:14.880
Paul.

993
00:46:14.940 --> 00:46:19.619
In vervoids, you know, it's a mystery story, so we have to have

994
00:46:19.619 --> 00:46:23.219
people with readily identifiable character traits like the

995
00:46:23.219 --> 00:46:26.340
belligerent one and the mad one and the mercantile one and what

996
00:46:26.340 --> 00:46:26.820
have you.

997
00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:28.619
But still, they're really well performed.

998
00:46:28.619 --> 00:46:32.940
And, you know, the Commodore and Lasky and Brookner and Kimba, you

999
00:46:32.940 --> 00:46:35.820
know, they're memorable, they're memorable characters.

1000
00:46:35.880 --> 00:46:39.840
We come to this and certainly they're a memorable visuals, but it

1001
00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:42.900
just feels, it feels so insular.

1002
00:46:42.960 --> 00:46:46.800
It's the same problem I had with hell bent, which I really

1003
00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:47.579
enjoyed.

1004
00:46:47.639 --> 00:46:50.340
But because, you know, we're on Gallifrey and all the characters

1005
00:46:50.340 --> 00:46:51.900
we meet at people we've met before.

1006
00:46:52.619 --> 00:46:55.800
You lose a bit of interest.

1007
00:46:55.920 --> 00:46:59.880
I still enjoy it, and I don't really fault it on that, but it's

1008
00:46:59.880 --> 00:47:03.420
just like, this doesn't feel as much fun as the other ones because

1009
00:47:03.420 --> 00:47:04.679
I'm not learning anything new.

1010
00:47:04.739 --> 00:47:09.239
And I guess we're split between a room that we're already

1011
00:47:09.239 --> 00:47:12.780
thoroughly sick of and a location that isn't real.

1012
00:47:12.840 --> 00:47:13.679
Yeah.

1013
00:47:13.679 --> 00:47:17.519
So there's something inconsequential about it.

1014
00:47:17.579 --> 00:47:21.239
And if it had been a venue for all sorts of really thrilling

1015
00:47:21.239 --> 00:47:24.539
political intrigue based on the trial, which is clearly what

1016
00:47:24.539 --> 00:47:28.139
they're attempting to do, but failing to do, then perhaps they

1017
00:47:28.139 --> 00:47:29.340
could have pulled it off.

1018
00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:34.380
But as it is, it's just a sort of fairly standard bunch of running

1019
00:47:34.380 --> 00:47:38.340
around and being hypnotised and having harpoons shot at you and

1020
00:47:38.340 --> 00:47:42.420
stuff, but nothing, nothing really actually happening.

1021
00:47:42.480 --> 00:47:45.840
And so I think it does fall to bits.

1022
00:47:46.079 --> 00:47:49.619
But, you know, overall, I really enjoy this.

1023
00:47:49.679 --> 00:47:50.460
I enjoy it.

1024
00:47:50.519 --> 00:47:53.400
Like, I mean, I give this 8 out of 10.

1025
00:47:53.579 --> 00:47:57.239
Like, I mean, I mean, in that sense, insane despite, despite, you

1026
00:47:57.239 --> 00:47:59.760
know, all these problems with the script and what it's doing and

1027
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:03.480
all this sort of stuff, I can sit there and I feel like at the end

1028
00:48:03.480 --> 00:48:07.860
there's a weight being lifted from this trial thing that's sitting

1029
00:48:07.860 --> 00:48:11.219
there and, you know, you know, we aren't getting resolutions, I

1030
00:48:11.219 --> 00:48:14.519
guess, you know, and we're not just sitting in a trial room for

1031
00:48:14.519 --> 00:48:15.360
the 2 episodes.

1032
00:48:15.480 --> 00:48:18.300
But, you know, I've just given it 8 out of 10.

1033
00:48:18.539 --> 00:48:21.840
So I kind of, you know, have made it my favourite story.

1034
00:48:21.900 --> 00:48:26.519
But it's not really like it gets it because it's wrapping up

1035
00:48:26.519 --> 00:48:27.300
everything else before it.

1036
00:48:27.360 --> 00:48:29.219
I don't know if I'm making much sense there.

1037
00:48:29.280 --> 00:48:30.119
No, no.

1038
00:48:30.119 --> 00:48:34.199
And in the end, for me, for the trial, the trial still comes back

1039
00:48:34.199 --> 00:48:35.219
to being 7 out of 10.

1040
00:48:35.400 --> 00:48:39.119
Like, even even if my schoolers are above that.

1041
00:48:39.179 --> 00:48:43.860
But the lightness that Colin brings into the role this year is

1042
00:48:43.860 --> 00:48:46.739
something that I think that you, Nathan, have pointed out.

1043
00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:49.260
And there's just lots of things that I've really enjoyed within

1044
00:48:49.260 --> 00:48:52.079
the stories, but then all this sort of trial stuff that's crap.

1045
00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:55.739
With some exceptions, I like the tone of this better than I like

1046
00:48:55.739 --> 00:48:57.960
the tone of season 22.

1047
00:48:58.199 --> 00:49:03.840
I think that they have learned some things, but I also think that

1048
00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:07.559
we're still in a show where all these tunnels look the same to me

1049
00:49:07.559 --> 00:49:11.699
and more so because Eric Sayard really doesn't know what he

1050
00:49:11.699 --> 00:49:12.059
wants.

1051
00:49:12.300 --> 00:49:15.059
Or John, Nathan Turner, really, either of them.

1052
00:49:15.119 --> 00:49:15.780
Yeah.

1053
00:49:15.840 --> 00:49:20.039
I do think that had John Nathan Turner had a different script

1054
00:49:20.039 --> 00:49:23.219
editor or had Eric Saywood had a different producer.

1055
00:49:23.400 --> 00:49:27.239
In either situation, they each would have produced better work.

1056
00:49:27.539 --> 00:49:33.000
As much as I do believe the failings of the last 5 years of Doctor

1057
00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:38.099
Who can mostly be ascribed to Eric Saywood.

1058
00:49:38.159 --> 00:49:42.840
I am not going to say that J and T is without fault for these

1059
00:49:42.840 --> 00:49:43.739
flaws.

1060
00:49:43.800 --> 00:49:45.719
I think it's something that we can discuss perhaps in the

1061
00:49:45.719 --> 00:49:48.059
retrospective because I've come to the same conclusion.

1062
00:49:48.119 --> 00:49:52.920
We've lampooned Eric Seywood, but there's underlying decisions

1063
00:49:52.920 --> 00:49:55.559
that are made that have put him in this situation and they come

1064
00:49:55.559 --> 00:49:59.460
from J and T. and other people in the BBC.

1065
00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:02.159
I have to agree with your scoring though, Todd.

1066
00:50:02.219 --> 00:50:04.500
I actually give this two-parters 9 out of 10.

1067
00:50:04.800 --> 00:50:06.000
And the whole trial.

1068
00:50:06.059 --> 00:50:07.679
I give a 7 out of 10.

1069
00:50:07.860 --> 00:50:12.179
I enjoy this in the same way you can enjoy earth shock in that, you

1070
00:50:12.179 --> 00:50:12.599
know what?

1071
00:50:12.659 --> 00:50:14.579
It's great fun and it's fantastic.

1072
00:50:14.639 --> 00:50:16.320
Just don't try and think about it too hard.

1073
00:50:16.380 --> 00:50:21.059
But there's 2 other cool bits that I have forgotten to mention

1074
00:50:21.059 --> 00:50:24.420
earlier, I'm looking back over my tweets from our hashtag FTE

1075
00:50:24.420 --> 00:50:25.320
trial marathon.

1076
00:50:25.380 --> 00:50:28.440
I will be doing this again for season 24 all in one day.

1077
00:50:28.500 --> 00:50:33.179
There's the bit where the master mentioned summary execution and

1078
00:50:33.179 --> 00:50:36.300
the rhubarb rhubarb of the time lords sitting around is they all

1079
00:50:36.300 --> 00:50:38.519
turn to each other and whisper summary execution.

1080
00:50:39.539 --> 00:50:43.440
And there's also the bit where Glitz is holding Popplewick at

1081
00:50:43.440 --> 00:50:47.639
gunpoint and the Dr. and Bella having a conversation and walk

1082
00:50:47.639 --> 00:50:48.420
between them.

1083
00:50:48.420 --> 00:50:51.659
And at 1st you might think, strategically wise, that's a really

1084
00:50:51.659 --> 00:50:52.199
terrible move.

1085
00:50:52.260 --> 00:50:55.019
It's like, no, these 2 are bloody cooler than you.

1086
00:50:55.079 --> 00:50:55.619
Shut up.

1087
00:50:55.679 --> 00:50:57.300
It's nice shot.

1088
00:50:57.420 --> 00:50:58.980
It's a very nice shot.

1089
00:50:59.039 --> 00:51:00.960
You know, I love these 2 together.

1090
00:51:01.019 --> 00:51:04.619
I wish we'd gotten another year of them together, Colin and

1091
00:51:04.619 --> 00:51:04.920
Bonnie.

1092
00:51:04.980 --> 00:51:09.300
I think they get the chemistry so right, including in this.

1093
00:51:09.360 --> 00:51:11.820
There's that great scene where she runs up to him and has that

1094
00:51:11.820 --> 00:51:14.219
horrible line you're not signing on as a martyr yet.

1095
00:51:14.280 --> 00:51:16.800
But it's kind of like opera.

1096
00:51:16.860 --> 00:51:19.739
Don't listen to the words, listen to the emotion and listen to

1097
00:51:19.739 --> 00:51:23.880
them arguing the next second, like the doctor saying, I knew what

1098
00:51:23.880 --> 00:51:24.539
was going on.

1099
00:51:24.599 --> 00:51:29.460
You're never feeling the tension that you feel between Colin and

1100
00:51:29.460 --> 00:51:31.260
Nicola as the doctor and Perry.

1101
00:51:31.320 --> 00:51:36.480
It is that kind of playful arguing sibling arguing that they were

1102
00:51:36.480 --> 00:51:37.500
trying to go for.

1103
00:51:37.739 --> 00:51:41.280
And I don't think it's the fault of the actors that it didn't work

1104
00:51:41.280 --> 00:51:41.639
before.

1105
00:51:41.699 --> 00:51:44.219
I think the emphasis was wrong and I think the emphasis has

1106
00:51:44.219 --> 00:51:47.039
changed now and Colin and Bonnie play that perfectly and they're

1107
00:51:47.039 --> 00:51:51.000
so visually striking together because he's huge and she's tiny.

1108
00:51:51.059 --> 00:51:55.019
And I haven't even mentioned a fabulous outfit in this, all that

1109
00:51:55.019 --> 00:51:58.679
blue wispy stuff for the blue high heeled boots, the patent

1110
00:51:58.679 --> 00:51:59.340
leather boots.

1111
00:51:59.460 --> 00:52:00.539
She looks amazing.

1112
00:52:00.659 --> 00:52:04.440
You know, we used to complain about Nicola's character not

1113
00:52:04.440 --> 00:52:06.179
dressing like a student.

1114
00:52:06.239 --> 00:52:10.739
Whereas Mel really dresses like someone in a crappy, light

1115
00:52:10.739 --> 00:52:13.679
entertainment science fiction show, doesn't she, really?

1116
00:52:13.739 --> 00:52:15.179
I hate her hair in this actually.

1117
00:52:15.239 --> 00:52:15.780
Yeah, awful.

1118
00:52:15.840 --> 00:52:16.320
Awful.

1119
00:52:16.380 --> 00:52:19.679
I think it's yeah, it's certainly my least favourite of all of her

1120
00:52:19.679 --> 00:52:20.820
hair.

1121
00:52:20.880 --> 00:52:22.320
Why I'm concentrating on that.

1122
00:52:22.380 --> 00:52:23.639
I'm still laughing about.

1123
00:52:23.699 --> 00:52:25.019
Don't go through that door.

1124
00:52:25.019 --> 00:52:28.260
Every time I watch that, that just cracks me up when she opens

1125
00:52:28.260 --> 00:52:30.539
that and it has to be that big dinosaur guy.

1126
00:52:31.079 --> 00:52:32.460
Todd, shall we reenact it?

1127
00:52:32.519 --> 00:52:33.659
Now you be Colin, I'll be Bonnie.

1128
00:52:33.719 --> 00:52:36.780
Don't go through that. door.

1129
00:52:36.840 --> 00:52:40.199
It's such flop that, you know?

1130
00:52:40.260 --> 00:52:41.940
Oh, I'm gonna give this nine.

1131
00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:44.460
And the season still gets a seven.

1132
00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:47.880
But what was needed was a nine, but you know.

1133
00:52:47.880 --> 00:52:50.280
So what's your score out of 10?

1134
00:52:50.340 --> 00:52:51.119
I don't give a.

1135
00:52:51.179 --> 00:52:52.559
You don't give score if you just give us.

1136
00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:53.940
Yeah, no, it's tiresome.

1137
00:52:55.380 --> 00:52:56.760
Right.

1138
00:52:56.820 --> 00:53:01.260
Speaking of tiresome things, it's time for Jenny Laird awards for

1139
00:53:01.260 --> 00:53:02.579
most puzzling creative choice.

1140
00:53:02.760 --> 00:53:04.739
So I have one.

1141
00:53:04.920 --> 00:53:10.260
Um, I was speaking last night on chat to Stephen Busanovsky. friend

1142
00:53:10.260 --> 00:53:10.739
of the podcast.

1143
00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:16.139
And I think we agreed that there's a creative choice here, which

1144
00:53:16.139 --> 00:53:20.760
is not only puzzling, but actually catastrophic, and I think it is

1145
00:53:20.760 --> 00:53:23.519
the decision to kill Perry at the end of Mind Warp.

1146
00:53:23.579 --> 00:53:28.199
And in Mind Warp, we said that we thought it was technically well

1147
00:53:28.199 --> 00:53:32.699
done and that the whole kind of ominous, doom laden atmosphere of

1148
00:53:32.699 --> 00:53:35.760
episode 4 of Mind Warp was really masterful.

1149
00:53:35.820 --> 00:53:41.460
But killing a companion's a bad idea, I think, generally, I think

1150
00:53:41.460 --> 00:53:45.659
you just get away with killing Adric because, you know, he's a

1151
00:53:45.659 --> 00:53:46.019
jerk.

1152
00:53:46.139 --> 00:53:49.739
But also because he's part of an ensemble as well.

1153
00:53:49.800 --> 00:53:54.960
But when you have the single character who we've been travelling

1154
00:53:54.960 --> 00:53:59.039
with for a long time, who the doctor kind of sacrificed his life

1155
00:53:59.039 --> 00:54:04.860
for, who is supposed to be, you know, an audience identification

1156
00:54:04.860 --> 00:54:11.099
figure, I think that it comes from a place of a complete

1157
00:54:11.099 --> 00:54:15.119
misunderstanding of what Doctor Who is, what its tone should be

1158
00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:19.500
what its audience is, what it's for, why it's lasted all this

1159
00:54:19.500 --> 00:54:20.219
time.

1160
00:54:20.280 --> 00:54:24.480
You know, I think you can kill Tasha Yar in season one of Star

1161
00:54:24.480 --> 00:54:28.199
Trek, the Next Generation, but you can't kill one of 2 regular

1162
00:54:28.199 --> 00:54:29.219
characters.

1163
00:54:29.280 --> 00:54:36.420
And doing it in such a horrific way, a way where her body is taken

1164
00:54:36.420 --> 00:54:42.360
over by a creepy old man, a way that just utterly reflects the way

1165
00:54:42.360 --> 00:54:46.380
that she's been manhandled and mistreated and drooled over and

1166
00:54:46.380 --> 00:54:51.059
lusted at and sexualised for her entire time on the show.

1167
00:54:51.119 --> 00:54:56.760
I think it's awful and probably one of the worst things ever to

1168
00:54:56.760 --> 00:54:58.860
happen in the run of classic Doctor Who.

1169
00:54:58.920 --> 00:55:02.519
The only comparable thing that I can think of that is just as

1170
00:55:02.519 --> 00:55:05.280
appalling, just as terrible.

1171
00:55:05.340 --> 00:55:08.820
You know, something that should never, ever have made it to screen

1172
00:55:08.820 --> 00:55:14.159
is Amy Pond's baby turning into a big pile of sick in a good man

1173
00:55:14.159 --> 00:55:15.000
goes to war.

1174
00:55:15.059 --> 00:55:17.820
I think that's horrific and indefensible.

1175
00:55:17.880 --> 00:55:20.400
And I think that this is similar.

1176
00:55:20.460 --> 00:55:22.199
It should never have happened.

1177
00:55:22.260 --> 00:55:26.940
It's, say, we're trying to be edgy and adult. and failing and

1178
00:55:26.940 --> 00:55:29.880
simply being cynical and nasty.

1179
00:55:29.940 --> 00:55:35.159
And it's my puzzling creative choice for the entire run of the

1180
00:55:35.159 --> 00:55:35.880
classic series.

1181
00:55:35.940 --> 00:55:37.260
Wow, yeah.

1182
00:55:37.800 --> 00:55:41.039
My creative puzzing choice is the trial.

1183
00:55:41.219 --> 00:55:45.539
It is the fact that Eric thought it was a good idea.

1184
00:55:45.599 --> 00:55:47.579
John was sold on the idea.

1185
00:55:47.699 --> 00:55:52.019
The powers that be up above, let it pass, but they're not

1186
00:55:52.019 --> 00:55:53.940
supporting the show. they stopped caring.

1187
00:55:54.000 --> 00:55:54.900
They'd stop caring.

1188
00:55:54.960 --> 00:55:56.340
Like, they want it gone.

1189
00:55:56.400 --> 00:55:57.719
So, oh yes, go ahead with this.

1190
00:55:57.780 --> 00:56:00.179
But the fact that they took it to the table.

1191
00:56:00.239 --> 00:56:02.219
Colin expressed concern.

1192
00:56:03.239 --> 00:56:05.099
And you're not going to listen to your leading man.

1193
00:56:05.159 --> 00:56:11.159
The whole concept of the trial is just my credit puzzling choice.

1194
00:56:11.280 --> 00:56:13.679
My puzzling creative choice.

1195
00:56:13.980 --> 00:56:18.900
When Colin was going around during production for Mind Warp asking

1196
00:56:18.900 --> 00:56:24.480
am I really bad here or am I pretending or is the Matrix lying

1197
00:56:24.480 --> 00:56:25.800
what's actually happening here?

1198
00:56:25.860 --> 00:56:30.179
My puzzling creative choice there, I can forgive Ron Jones for not

1199
00:56:30.179 --> 00:56:30.900
knowing the answer.

1200
00:56:31.199 --> 00:56:37.860
Directors of Doctor Who aren't there to change the story, as they

1201
00:56:37.860 --> 00:56:40.019
might end a Hollywood film or in any film.

1202
00:56:40.079 --> 00:56:42.599
I can forgive Eric Saywood for not knowing.

1203
00:56:42.659 --> 00:56:46.260
You know, the job of a script editor at this stage is not to

1204
00:56:46.260 --> 00:56:47.099
impart meaning.

1205
00:56:47.159 --> 00:56:50.159
The job is to make sure the script is workable and can be filmed.

1206
00:56:50.219 --> 00:56:54.000
My puzzling creative choices why Philip Martin couldn't answer

1207
00:56:54.000 --> 00:56:54.360
that question.

1208
00:56:54.420 --> 00:56:57.900
I actually think you're letting people off the hook, because I

1209
00:56:57.900 --> 00:57:02.099
think the script is pretty clear on what's happening that, you

1210
00:57:02.099 --> 00:57:07.019
know, he's initially zonked by the cliffhanger to episode one, but

1211
00:57:07.019 --> 00:57:10.260
essentially what he eventually decides is the case, that the

1212
00:57:10.260 --> 00:57:11.940
emphasis is being changed.

1213
00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:17.219
And the bit where he torments Perry on the rock is not what

1214
00:57:17.219 --> 00:57:17.699
happened.

1215
00:57:17.760 --> 00:57:19.679
Like, I think that's clear from the script.

1216
00:57:19.800 --> 00:57:23.579
And I think it's Collins' job to read the script and understand

1217
00:57:23.579 --> 00:57:24.059
it.

1218
00:57:24.119 --> 00:57:26.820
It's Eric's job to read the script and understand it.

1219
00:57:26.880 --> 00:57:30.539
And for God's sake, it's the director's job to read the script and

1220
00:57:30.539 --> 00:57:31.380
understand it.

1221
00:57:31.440 --> 00:57:32.639
So he can put it on screen.

1222
00:57:32.760 --> 00:57:34.380
I think they're all culpable.

1223
00:57:34.440 --> 00:57:36.960
It is fairly clear what's meant to be happening.

1224
00:57:37.079 --> 00:57:42.420
Yeah, but I think the buck stops with Philip Martin because Colin

1225
00:57:42.420 --> 00:57:44.579
asked Ron, who said, I don't know.

1226
00:57:44.639 --> 00:57:48.599
He asked Eric, who said, I don't know, and via Eric, he asked

1227
00:57:48.599 --> 00:57:52.079
Philip Martin, who said, ask Eric and Ron.

1228
00:57:52.139 --> 00:57:56.579
And at that point, I think the message from Ron was just, oh, play

1229
00:57:56.579 --> 00:57:57.360
it how you think, darling.

1230
00:57:57.420 --> 00:57:59.099
Well, I think he gets it wrong.

1231
00:57:59.159 --> 00:58:02.280
I also think too, maybe Philip Martin's annoyed by the changes

1232
00:58:02.280 --> 00:58:04.260
that have happened to his group because of the trial.

1233
00:58:04.320 --> 00:58:06.840
Look, I don't I don't really know.

1234
00:58:06.900 --> 00:58:10.320
I mean, in one of the interviews, Con actually says that he asked

1235
00:58:10.320 --> 00:58:14.639
Eric and he asked wrong, but he couldn't get in contact with.

1236
00:58:14.699 --> 00:58:16.079
Oh okay.

1237
00:58:16.139 --> 00:58:19.679
Which is a different take than what he says at other points in

1238
00:58:19.679 --> 00:58:21.000
time. like the memory cheat.

1239
00:58:21.059 --> 00:58:23.099
So maybe he did speak to him, maybe he didn't.

1240
00:58:23.159 --> 00:58:26.219
But ultimately, the script goes through the script editor.

1241
00:58:26.280 --> 00:58:28.920
The script editor should be able to give some direction to the

1242
00:58:28.920 --> 00:58:29.519
lead actor.

1243
00:58:29.579 --> 00:58:30.239
Yeah, right?

1244
00:58:30.300 --> 00:58:30.840
Yeah.

1245
00:58:30.900 --> 00:58:32.639
And Colin's struggling with this.

1246
00:58:32.820 --> 00:58:37.980
And I agree with you that the director should also be able to to

1247
00:58:37.980 --> 00:58:39.179
an extent work it out as well.

1248
00:58:39.239 --> 00:58:42.000
And I think it is this time through, I found it clearer.

1249
00:58:42.059 --> 00:58:44.760
Sorry, we seem to be dishing your creative puzzling choice.

1250
00:58:44.820 --> 00:58:45.599
That's fine.

1251
00:58:45.659 --> 00:58:49.079
I'm fine with that because it is a problem in that story is that

1252
00:58:49.079 --> 00:58:52.380
different scenes are played different ways and it makes it and

1253
00:58:52.380 --> 00:58:53.460
I've struggled with it for years.

1254
00:58:53.519 --> 00:58:54.119
Yeah.

1255
00:58:54.119 --> 00:58:56.940
Yeah, and, you know, I probably agree with you both.

1256
00:58:57.000 --> 00:58:58.440
I'm looking for one person to blame.

1257
00:58:58.500 --> 00:58:59.760
But no, it's a team effort.

1258
00:58:59.820 --> 00:59:01.980
You right. all 3 of them.

1259
00:59:02.579 --> 00:59:05.760
Okay, pics of the week.

1260
00:59:05.820 --> 00:59:07.139
I've got two.

1261
00:59:07.500 --> 00:59:12.239
My 1st pick of the week is the novel Matrix by Robert Perry and

1262
00:59:12.239 --> 00:59:13.619
Mike Tucker.

1263
00:59:13.679 --> 00:59:18.480
Mike Tucker, of course, who was a special effects person on the

1264
00:59:18.480 --> 00:59:21.420
last few years of classic Doctor Who and also new series Doctor

1265
00:59:21.420 --> 00:59:21.840
Who.

1266
00:59:21.900 --> 00:59:26.820
It's a 7th doctor novel dealing with uh, what happens to the

1267
00:59:26.820 --> 00:59:27.300
Valiard?

1268
00:59:27.360 --> 00:59:27.840
after the trial?

1269
00:59:27.900 --> 00:59:32.099
It is a fan wanky use of the concept of the valeyard, but it's

1270
00:59:32.099 --> 00:59:37.739
also really well executed. and tries to explain who and what the

1271
00:59:37.739 --> 00:59:42.059
Valiard is without kind of going into wrestle on imprimarches and

1272
00:59:42.059 --> 00:59:42.840
that sort of thing.

1273
00:59:42.900 --> 00:59:45.539
It's an enjoyable novel of its own right.

1274
00:59:45.599 --> 00:59:49.019
The science fiction concepts are science fiction concepts, they're

1275
00:59:49.019 --> 00:59:52.320
not just Doctor Who concepts, and it also plays with ideas of

1276
00:59:52.320 --> 00:59:53.219
identity and memory.

1277
00:59:53.280 --> 00:59:54.300
So it's very good.

1278
00:59:54.360 --> 00:59:58.800
My 2nd recommendation is the big Finnish audio parry and the

1279
00:59:58.800 --> 01:00:05.340
Piscon paradox, which attempts to reconcile what we saw happen in

1280
01:00:05.340 --> 01:00:06.119
Mindwarp.

1281
01:00:06.179 --> 01:00:08.159
What we heard happened in the ultimate foe.

1282
01:00:08.219 --> 01:00:13.559
What we read about in the mind warp novelisation and bad therapy.

1283
01:00:13.679 --> 01:00:18.599
And tries to give us some closure on Perry's departure.

1284
01:00:18.719 --> 01:00:21.059
It's a companion chronicle.

1285
01:00:21.119 --> 01:00:25.380
So it's mostly Nicola Bryant, but the special guest voice in it is

1286
01:00:25.380 --> 01:00:26.099
Colin Baker.

1287
01:00:26.460 --> 01:00:31.019
I won't spoil it too much, but the ending I found particularly

1288
01:00:31.019 --> 01:00:32.039
emotionally affecting.

1289
01:00:32.099 --> 01:00:36.059
Actually, the ending of both halves because it's kind of like 2

1290
01:00:36.059 --> 01:00:37.199
connected 2 partters.

1291
01:00:37.500 --> 01:00:42.960
And especially the ending of the 1st half as narrated, not only

1292
01:00:42.960 --> 01:00:48.539
narrated by Nicola, but as told by Perry, and you find out in the

1293
01:00:48.539 --> 01:00:51.480
2nd half, there's one kind of one important piece of information

1294
01:00:51.480 --> 01:00:54.780
that Perry doesn't have when she's narrating that 1st half that

1295
01:00:54.780 --> 01:00:56.579
really makes it resonate even more.

1296
01:00:56.639 --> 01:00:59.219
So Perry and the Piscon paradox written by Nev Fountain.

1297
01:00:59.940 --> 01:01:04.739
I think last season I recommended that people read Evelyn Wars, the

1298
01:01:04.739 --> 01:01:08.099
loved one, which, if you haven't read it, you really should.

1299
01:01:08.159 --> 01:01:12.300
It's truly tremendous, the BBC has just come out with a three-part

1300
01:01:12.300 --> 01:01:16.199
adaptation of Evelyn Waugh's 1st novel, Decline and Fall, written

1301
01:01:16.199 --> 01:01:23.159
in 1928, and I've seen the 1st 2 episodes to date, and it's really

1302
01:01:23.159 --> 01:01:24.780
really terrifically funny.

1303
01:01:24.900 --> 01:01:27.599
Have you seen or heard the 1st 2 episodes?

1304
01:01:27.659 --> 01:01:28.739
Did you say it was?

1305
01:01:28.800 --> 01:01:29.760
No, no, it's a TV show.

1306
01:01:29.820 --> 01:01:30.659
Oh, I bet terrific.

1307
01:01:30.659 --> 01:01:33.059
It stars Jack Whitehall as Paul Pennyfeather.

1308
01:01:33.119 --> 01:01:34.079
Oh, I love Jack Whitehall.

1309
01:01:34.139 --> 01:01:38.820
It has the late Tim Pigott Smith in what must be one of his last

1310
01:01:38.820 --> 01:01:43.019
roles because he only just died sort of fairly recently as we

1311
01:01:43.019 --> 01:01:43.619
record.

1312
01:01:43.739 --> 01:01:48.000
And he's in the opening scene and he's really sort of terrifically

1313
01:01:48.000 --> 01:01:48.420
funny.

1314
01:01:48.539 --> 01:01:52.559
It's brutal and horrible like all of Evelyn Moore's stuff.

1315
01:01:52.679 --> 01:01:57.599
He's gleefully cruel to all of his characters, and it also

1316
01:01:57.599 --> 01:02:02.519
features a fantastic Star Turn from the wonderful Eva Longoria, who

1317
01:02:02.519 --> 01:02:06.300
you might remember from Desperate Housewives, and she's super

1318
01:02:06.300 --> 01:02:07.559
super glamorous in it.

1319
01:02:07.619 --> 01:02:09.719
It's some laugh out loud, funny.

1320
01:02:09.780 --> 01:02:11.219
I've really really been enjoying it.

1321
01:02:11.280 --> 01:02:15.659
And so if you want to break from cardboard sets and mazes and

1322
01:02:15.659 --> 01:02:19.079
megabyte modems, there's no robots in this, there's no

1323
01:02:19.079 --> 01:02:23.400
pteroreptils in it, even though it is said in 1928, it is really

1324
01:02:23.400 --> 01:02:25.980
really terrifically funny and I can recommend it wholeheartedly.

1325
01:02:26.159 --> 01:02:28.320
I've got one.

1326
01:02:28.380 --> 01:02:29.639
Do you know what I'm going to recommend?

1327
01:02:29.699 --> 01:02:31.500
I recommend Beauty and the Beast.

1328
01:02:31.559 --> 01:02:34.260
It's a wonderful movie about a plucky American girl and her

1329
01:02:34.260 --> 01:02:35.880
wrestler, Warlord.

1330
01:02:39.239 --> 01:02:41.519
No, we don't go with that.

1331
01:02:41.579 --> 01:02:43.860
It's a pretty good recommendation, though.

1332
01:02:43.920 --> 01:02:46.980
It's even got a gay in it. like James Bree.

1333
01:02:47.039 --> 01:02:50.340
I recommend the new CW show Riverdale, because I think that's full

1334
01:02:50.340 --> 01:02:54.780
of nice young things and lots of angst.

1335
01:02:54.840 --> 01:02:56.039
Everyone's very attractive.

1336
01:02:56.760 --> 01:03:02.579
I'd recommend any big finish audio with Bonnie Langford and Colin

1337
01:03:02.579 --> 01:03:06.659
Baker in it because I really do think they are that well written

1338
01:03:06.659 --> 01:03:09.059
for that pair.

1339
01:03:09.719 --> 01:03:13.619
If I had to pick one, I'm not going to pick a pick one of those.

1340
01:03:13.679 --> 01:03:14.880
I going to pick the Wiran aisle.

1341
01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:16.019
Oh, yes.

1342
01:03:16.079 --> 01:03:21.059
Which is which is a 6 doctor with the Wiran and his companion

1343
01:03:21.059 --> 01:03:22.019
flip.

1344
01:03:22.079 --> 01:03:26.159
And I really enjoy that one and so, yeah, just for something

1345
01:03:26.159 --> 01:03:29.519
different, one of the 6 doctors, alternative companions and I

1346
01:03:29.519 --> 01:03:30.300
think it's a really good story.

1347
01:03:30.360 --> 01:03:33.420
It also uses the Weiran in an unexpected way.

1348
01:03:33.480 --> 01:03:34.559
I found that.

1349
01:03:34.619 --> 01:03:35.159
Yeah.

1350
01:03:35.219 --> 01:03:37.800
That's by William Gallagher, who's written some very good big

1351
01:03:37.800 --> 01:03:38.159
finish.

1352
01:04:05.219 --> 01:04:08.219
Well, dear listener, we're not quite finished with the Colin Baker

1353
01:04:08.219 --> 01:04:09.000
era yet.

1354
01:04:09.059 --> 01:04:12.719
Do come back next week for a very special episode, and the week

1355
01:04:12.719 --> 01:04:15.179
after that, we'll be having our big finished special, so you still

1356
01:04:15.179 --> 01:04:18.119
have time to listen to the one doctor.

1357
01:04:18.300 --> 01:04:20.519
Doctor Who and the Pirates.

1358
01:04:20.639 --> 01:04:27.059
Jubilee, and the brink of death from the Doctor Who, the Last

1359
01:04:27.059 --> 01:04:28.139
Adventure box set.

1360
01:04:28.199 --> 01:04:30.539
All of those are available from bigfinish.com.

1361
01:04:30.599 --> 01:04:34.739
Don't forget, you can vote in our Tom Baker commentary, and the 4

1362
01:04:34.739 --> 01:04:42.000
options are, The hand of fear, The sun makers, The stones of blood

1363
01:04:42.000 --> 01:04:44.219
And the horns of Nimon.

1364
01:04:44.400 --> 01:04:48.239
You can find a link to the poll in the show notes and also at

1365
01:04:48.239 --> 01:04:50.159
flightthroughentirety.sexy.

1366
01:04:50.219 --> 01:04:51.960
Over on Bondfinger.

1367
01:04:52.019 --> 01:04:55.139
We have recently said goodbye to Timothy Dalton after only just

1368
01:04:55.139 --> 01:04:59.159
having said hello to him in license to kill, and we also have

1369
01:04:59.159 --> 01:05:03.300
commentaries for all the Roger Moore films and Sean Connery films

1370
01:05:03.300 --> 01:05:07.019
and unlike that lawsuit, because there's a lawsuit at the moment

1371
01:05:07.019 --> 01:05:11.340
because the 50th anniversary Bond set says it has every Bond movie

1372
01:05:11.340 --> 01:05:15.119
but it doesn't have Casino Royale 67 or never say never again.

1373
01:05:15.239 --> 01:05:17.219
Well, we do.

1374
01:05:17.280 --> 01:05:18.900
So you don't have to sue us.

1375
01:05:18.960 --> 01:05:22.380
So there, isn't that wonderful?

1376
01:05:22.500 --> 01:05:28.619
Until then, you can find our websites, flightthroughentirety

1377
01:05:25.260 --> 01:05:31.679
sexyandbondfinger.com. bondfinger.com as well has a secret address

1378
01:05:31.679 --> 01:05:34.500
at the moment and we're not going to tell you what it is, but it's

1379
01:05:34.500 --> 01:05:37.500
a word that Nathan invented during our living daylights

1380
01:05:37.500 --> 01:05:38.039
commentary.

1381
01:05:38.099 --> 01:05:40.860
So if you type in that word.com, you will be redirected to

1382
01:05:40.860 --> 01:05:45.420
Bondfinger, you can find us on Twitter at @bondfingercast and at

1383
01:05:45.420 --> 01:05:47.639
FTE podcast and over on Facebook.

1384
01:05:47.699 --> 01:05:51.480
Just search for Flight through Entirety, our Bondfinger, same as

1385
01:05:51.480 --> 01:05:52.019
iTunes.

1386
01:05:52.079 --> 01:05:55.440
Until next week, may your matrix get a bit more maintenance than

1387
01:05:55.440 --> 01:05:56.280
once a millennia.

1388
01:05:56.340 --> 01:05:57.480
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1389
01:05:57.539 --> 01:05:58.139
Good night.

1390
01:05:58.260 --> 01:05:59.099
See you soon.

1391
01:06:00.300 --> 01:06:04.440
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd BLB, Nathan Bodley

1392
01:06:04.440 --> 01:06:05.219
and Brandon Jones.

1393
01:06:05.280 --> 01:06:07.260
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1394
01:06:07.320 --> 01:06:10.500
This episode, Gallifrey and Duck and Cover, was recorded on the

1395
01:06:10.500 --> 01:06:12.119
15th of April 2017.

1396
01:06:12.360 --> 01:06:15.300
The next episode will be released on the 28th of May.

1397
01:06:15.960 --> 01:06:20.039
Now that we've discussed the entire Colin Baker era on television

1398
01:06:20.039 --> 01:06:23.519
we'll be travelling back in time to return Todd to the 30th of

1399
01:06:23.519 --> 01:06:27.300
December 2014, so he can record his 1st ever appearance on the

1400
01:06:27.300 --> 01:06:27.719
podcast.

1401
01:06:27.780 --> 01:06:29.699
See you soon, Todd.

1402
01:06:30.539 --> 01:06:32.159
Um...

1403
01:06:32.159 --> 01:06:34.619
And today is...

1404
01:06:34.619 --> 01:06:38.820
Boobidiboo of April. 15th.

1405
01:06:39.239 --> 01:06:39.900
April.

1406
01:06:39.960 --> 01:06:41.340
April Diggity.

1407
01:06:41.400 --> 01:06:43.199
I'm gonna turn off all of my things.

1408
01:06:43.260 --> 01:06:50.460
I failed hullabaloo. editing the episode 107 and I interrupt your

1409
01:06:50.460 --> 01:06:52.679
thing with my watch to tell me to drink water.

1410
01:06:56.880 --> 01:06:58.320
Okay.

1411
01:06:59.699 --> 01:07:04.199
Oh, Todd, just hold your microphone at a bit more of an angle.

1412
01:07:04.260 --> 01:07:05.639
I was getting breath, that's all.

1413
01:07:06.000 --> 01:07:09.179
We do get a bit of Todd breath from time to time.

1414
01:07:09.239 --> 01:07:10.800
It gives us life.

1415
01:07:11.280 --> 01:07:12.599
Okay.

1416
01:07:12.719 --> 01:07:13.260
Okay.

1417
01:07:13.320 --> 01:07:13.860
Is that better?

1418
01:07:13.920 --> 01:07:14.760
That's better, thank you.

1419
01:07:14.880 --> 01:07:15.719
Okay, I'll just remember.

1420
01:07:16.139 --> 01:07:19.079
Oh my god, Todd's breathing through his nose.

1421
01:07:19.139 --> 01:07:20.460
He's angry.

1422
01:07:20.519 --> 01:07:22.320
Not only.

1423
01:07:22.320 --> 01:07:22.860
Not yet.

1424
01:07:22.920 --> 01:07:23.760
Not yet.

1425
01:07:23.760 --> 01:07:25.800
I want to be angry.

1426
01:07:25.860 --> 01:07:26.400
I wanna be happy.

1427
01:07:26.460 --> 01:07:27.000
Can I be happy?

1428
01:07:27.059 --> 01:07:27.900
Okay.