WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 12:14:50

1
00:00:31.260 --> 00:00:35.579
Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

2
00:00:35.579 --> 00:00:38.520
the only Doctor Who podcast you actually recommends wearing real

3
00:00:38.520 --> 00:00:40.740
cats on your lapels rather than just badges.

4
00:00:40.799 --> 00:00:42.539
Don't try that at home and please don't sue.

5
00:00:42.600 --> 00:00:43.140
I'm Brendan.

6
00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:44.579
I'm Nathan I'm Todd.

7
00:00:44.579 --> 00:00:49.259
And we are exploring the entire lengthy Colin Baker era today with

8
00:00:49.259 --> 00:00:50.759
the Colin Baker retrospective.

9
00:00:50.820 --> 00:00:53.700
I will hand over to you in a moment, Todd, but I'd like to explain

10
00:00:53.700 --> 00:00:56.039
1st why Richard hasn't joined us today.

11
00:00:56.100 --> 00:01:02.520
As we've discussed before, Richard, At the time, didn't really

12
00:01:02.520 --> 00:01:04.859
enjoy the Colin Baker era, he found it difficult to get through.

13
00:01:04.980 --> 00:01:08.280
And this time around, he has not managed to get through season

14
00:01:08.280 --> 00:01:08.939
22.

15
00:01:09.239 --> 00:01:11.459
He's just not enjoying it at all, and he felt that it would be

16
00:01:11.459 --> 00:01:15.420
unfair both to appear as he hasn't enjoyed the era, and because he

17
00:01:15.420 --> 00:01:20.760
hasn't finished the era, and he thought rather than turn up and be

18
00:01:20.760 --> 00:01:25.680
negative, Um, he just decided he was going to, you know, not have

19
00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:27.239
anything nice to say, not have anything at all.

20
00:01:27.299 --> 00:01:31.500
As we discussed last week, you know, he loves big finish audios

21
00:01:31.500 --> 00:01:34.680
but just the era as it is on television, he just can't stomach

22
00:01:34.680 --> 00:01:34.920
it.

23
00:01:34.980 --> 00:01:36.719
So that's why Richard isn't joining us today.

24
00:01:36.780 --> 00:01:39.900
And the reason I'm joining us is because I've got lots of negative

25
00:01:39.900 --> 00:01:41.159
things to say about the era.

26
00:01:41.219 --> 00:01:42.359
Do you?

27
00:01:42.420 --> 00:01:44.340
Have any positives at all?

28
00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:44.760
Yeah.

29
00:01:44.819 --> 00:01:46.739
Have you discovered some things of merit?

30
00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:47.400
Yeah, yeah.

31
00:01:47.459 --> 00:01:49.379
Well, that's quite short.

32
00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:51.180
That's your job to find out.

33
00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:52.920
I'm handing over to you.

34
00:01:52.980 --> 00:01:54.420
Thank you.

35
00:01:54.480 --> 00:01:55.739
Thank you listeners.

36
00:01:55.799 --> 00:01:59.459
Okay, let's just start with Strong Marrier void.

37
00:01:59.519 --> 00:02:01.379
I need to start on a positive note.

38
00:02:01.439 --> 00:02:03.719
So, Brendan, here's your dog, Marrier void.

39
00:02:03.780 --> 00:02:06.299
Edgeworth, Kimba, or the surviving nappy man.

40
00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:13.139
Oh, my ponchant for older man has come back to haunt me.

41
00:02:16.199 --> 00:02:19.020
Look, I think I'd have to avoid the nappy man because he's going

42
00:02:19.020 --> 00:02:19.379
to eat me.

43
00:02:20.099 --> 00:02:21.479
Right.

44
00:02:21.479 --> 00:02:25.740
You know, so and I'm not judging anyone out there who's into

45
00:02:25.740 --> 00:02:27.719
erotic cannibalism.

46
00:02:27.780 --> 00:02:29.039
It's not my thing.

47
00:02:29.099 --> 00:02:29.699
Okay.

48
00:02:29.699 --> 00:02:33.780
I thought that last barbeque we had at yours was really good.

49
00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:38.039
So I think I would have to Snog Edgeworth.

50
00:02:38.099 --> 00:02:40.139
Because, you know, it's Morris Denim.

51
00:02:40.199 --> 00:02:43.740
Good, lots of lovely stories, and we know he can't hold his drink

52
00:02:43.740 --> 00:02:44.219
either.

53
00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:47.280
Um, so he, you know, he'd be fun at parties.

54
00:02:47.340 --> 00:02:50.580
I think I'd have to marry Kimba for 2 reasons.

55
00:02:50.639 --> 00:02:54.419
One, he's rich enough to go aboard the Hyperion 3 and two, I know

56
00:02:54.419 --> 00:02:55.379
he's going to be dead soon.

57
00:02:55.560 --> 00:02:58.080
You'll inherit all of that lovely money.

58
00:02:58.139 --> 00:03:02.219
I am Anna Nicole Smith, you know, people mistake us all the time

59
00:03:02.219 --> 00:03:04.979
despite the fact, I'm not blonde or dead.

60
00:03:05.039 --> 00:03:09.000
So, um, yeah, I think it's avoid the nappy man.

61
00:03:09.060 --> 00:03:13.080
Snog, Professor Edgeworth and marry Mr. Kimber.

62
00:03:13.139 --> 00:03:14.580
Great.

63
00:03:14.639 --> 00:03:15.900
Nathan.

64
00:03:15.960 --> 00:03:16.500
God.

65
00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:18.419
It's not Marion Boyd.

66
00:03:18.479 --> 00:03:20.099
Eric, say what?

67
00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:23.939
Philip Martin or Ron Jones?

68
00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:25.379
Oh, dear.

69
00:03:25.439 --> 00:03:26.759
Dear, dear, dear.

70
00:03:26.819 --> 00:03:30.719
So these are responsible for the uh, the train wreck of a story

71
00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:36.300
and 2 out of 3 of our puzzling creative choices for um, season

72
00:03:36.300 --> 00:03:37.139
23.

73
00:03:37.379 --> 00:03:44.099
I think I would avoid Eric Saywood, because if he ever listens to

74
00:03:44.099 --> 00:03:46.740
this podcast...

75
00:03:46.740 --> 00:03:47.400
That's it.

76
00:03:48.060 --> 00:03:52.860
Philip Martin is actually talented, I think.

77
00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:55.439
He's got something going for him.

78
00:03:55.500 --> 00:03:59.159
Um, yeah, let's nog Philip Martin.

79
00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:01.979
At least that'll stop him talking, I suppose.

80
00:04:02.039 --> 00:04:02.340
Okay.

81
00:04:02.340 --> 00:04:04.439
And and Ron Jones.

82
00:04:04.500 --> 00:04:07.800
You know, he's bringing in a massive BBC paycheque, I think, for

83
00:04:07.800 --> 00:04:10.080
directing Doctor Who in the mid 1980s.

84
00:04:10.139 --> 00:04:10.919
Hed be rolling in it.

85
00:04:10.979 --> 00:04:12.180
So I'd have to marry him.

86
00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:15.900
And did you know after he did Mind Warp?

87
00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:18.660
The reason he didn't work for Doctor Who again was nothing to do

88
00:04:18.660 --> 00:04:21.300
with the quality of his work, he actually moved to Germany and

89
00:04:21.300 --> 00:04:23.639
directed for television there until he died in 1993.

90
00:04:23.819 --> 00:04:24.779
Ah.

91
00:04:24.779 --> 00:04:27.000
That soon after.

92
00:04:27.060 --> 00:04:28.019
Yeah, yeah, sure.

93
00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:28.800
Wow.

94
00:04:28.860 --> 00:04:32.579
So, so much like Mr. Kimba, you know, you've only got a few.

95
00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:32.939
Yeah.

96
00:04:32.939 --> 00:04:35.399
I was going to give myself a really good one.

97
00:04:35.459 --> 00:04:37.199
Now I've got to give myself something that's great.

98
00:04:37.259 --> 00:04:38.160
No, no, can I give you one?

99
00:04:38.279 --> 00:04:40.860
Okay, listeners, I'm ready for it.

100
00:04:40.920 --> 00:04:41.879
I'm not ready for it all.

101
00:04:41.939 --> 00:04:42.180
No.

102
00:04:42.240 --> 00:04:42.839
Yes, go for it.

103
00:04:42.899 --> 00:04:45.180
Snog, marry, avoid.

104
00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:49.740
Bruckner, Doland, or Lasky.

105
00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:56.459
Which one's Bruckner?

106
00:04:56.519 --> 00:04:58.259
He's he's the remember.

107
00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:00.779
He's the highly strong one with the moustache.

108
00:05:00.839 --> 00:05:04.439
Yeah, Buckner's Gary McDonald from Mother of the Sun.

109
00:05:04.500 --> 00:05:05.519
Oh, okay.

110
00:05:05.519 --> 00:05:10.500
Doland is the curly haired one who is the villain.

111
00:05:10.560 --> 00:05:12.000
And...

112
00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:13.079
Well, they know who Lasky is.

113
00:05:13.139 --> 00:05:13.379
Yes.

114
00:05:13.439 --> 00:05:14.699
I'm surprised.

115
00:05:14.699 --> 00:05:15.839
The vervoids actually.

116
00:05:15.899 --> 00:05:17.819
I'm marrying Lasky.

117
00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:18.959
Oh God, yeah.

118
00:05:19.019 --> 00:05:22.620
And um, I think I'm going to avoid the murderer.

119
00:05:22.680 --> 00:05:24.660
Yeah, no, I think that's why.

120
00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:25.379
I think that's why.

121
00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:29.759
So it means I have to snug Gary McDonald from mother and son.

122
00:05:29.819 --> 00:05:30.779
Oh well, there you go.

123
00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:31.560
There you go.

124
00:05:31.620 --> 00:05:32.399
Free moustache ride.

125
00:05:32.459 --> 00:05:33.600
Oh, wow.

126
00:05:33.660 --> 00:05:34.319
Wow.

127
00:05:34.379 --> 00:05:35.579
All right.

128
00:05:35.639 --> 00:05:37.860
We'll have another one of those.

129
00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:39.480
Because I told you something.

130
00:05:39.540 --> 00:05:42.180
No, I've actually got I've actually got one that I that I think

131
00:05:42.180 --> 00:05:44.040
you'll rather enjoy.

132
00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:48.240
Okay, this is probably the most controversial era of the program.

133
00:05:48.300 --> 00:05:52.920
And we certainly came into it very differing opinions.

134
00:05:52.980 --> 00:05:57.660
What's your feeling now that you've watched this whole era?

135
00:05:57.720 --> 00:06:00.300
Has, has, has your opinion changed?

136
00:06:00.360 --> 00:06:02.220
But the better for the worse.

137
00:06:02.279 --> 00:06:09.839
I think that the quality of the stories is worse than in the

138
00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:10.800
Davison era.

139
00:06:10.860 --> 00:06:14.759
And I think all the flaws of the Davis and era are really, really

140
00:06:14.759 --> 00:06:16.379
apparent in this era.

141
00:06:16.439 --> 00:06:17.639
So I think the stories are worse.

142
00:06:17.699 --> 00:06:23.160
I think they're repetitive and unimaginative and, you know

143
00:06:23.160 --> 00:06:24.060
tiresome.

144
00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:25.560
I think there are some exceptions.

145
00:06:25.620 --> 00:06:30.720
I thought that the 2 doctors was good because it's Bob Holmes, I

146
00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:35.279
thought that Revelation of the Daleks was, say, was best script

147
00:06:35.279 --> 00:06:39.060
and was really interesting and was clearly inspired by Holmes.

148
00:06:39.060 --> 00:06:43.680
So I don't think it's, the stories are completely without merit

149
00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:46.259
but just the tone, I think, is unpleasant.

150
00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:53.459
I guess what I found is that, The bits of Collins performance that

151
00:06:53.459 --> 00:06:59.160
don't work are overwhelmingly to be found in season 22.

152
00:06:59.399 --> 00:07:03.120
And it's the bullying and the kind of nastiness.

153
00:07:03.180 --> 00:07:08.220
And that now seems to me to be more easily separable from his

154
00:07:08.220 --> 00:07:10.259
performance as a whole.

155
00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:14.279
It's clear that everyone involved soon regards that as a mistake.

156
00:07:14.339 --> 00:07:18.180
And it's not really very present in season 23.

157
00:07:18.420 --> 00:07:22.620
I think there are some things that Colin is very good at, and I

158
00:07:22.620 --> 00:07:24.720
guess I hadn't really been aware of this before.

159
00:07:24.779 --> 00:07:26.399
I think he's funny.

160
00:07:26.459 --> 00:07:32.519
Um, and I think his doctor works when he's oblivious rather than

161
00:07:32.519 --> 00:07:33.600
unpleasant.

162
00:07:33.660 --> 00:07:37.019
So all of those things he does in season 23 where, you know, the

163
00:07:37.019 --> 00:07:39.540
companions warning him about danger and he's kind of ignoring them

164
00:07:39.540 --> 00:07:42.600
or agreeing with them and then blundering on anyway.

165
00:07:42.660 --> 00:07:47.879
And I also think because he's bombastic and overconfident, it's

166
00:07:47.879 --> 00:07:51.480
funny when he gets cut down by being wrong and he's very

167
00:07:51.480 --> 00:07:52.560
frequently wrong.

168
00:07:52.620 --> 00:07:55.920
And I think that's funny and sort of rather sweet.

169
00:07:55.980 --> 00:07:59.279
And so that's something I think I've come to appreciate about his

170
00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:00.120
performance.

171
00:08:00.180 --> 00:08:03.899
And I haven't had the big finish experience that you guys have

172
00:08:03.899 --> 00:08:04.199
had.

173
00:08:04.259 --> 00:08:08.459
But it seems to me that the big Finnish doctor is more likeable

174
00:08:08.459 --> 00:08:11.579
than the season 22 doctor.

175
00:08:11.639 --> 00:08:16.860
And so Colin gets to do things that he's good at and leave behind

176
00:08:16.860 --> 00:08:20.699
just the sort of terrible mistakes of the way his doctor was kind

177
00:08:20.699 --> 00:08:22.019
of initially characterised.

178
00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:24.120
Okay, Brendan.

179
00:08:24.180 --> 00:08:27.959
Yeah, the sort of new thing I've picked up on in this era.

180
00:08:28.019 --> 00:08:32.039
The 6th doctor has always been a favourite of mine even before Big

181
00:08:32.039 --> 00:08:32.519
Finish.

182
00:08:32.580 --> 00:08:37.440
I think, possibly as a child, I liked the lack of filter, because

183
00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:41.399
that is very childlike quality to not think before you speak.

184
00:08:41.700 --> 00:08:46.740
And there's certainly elements of that in this doctor's

185
00:08:46.740 --> 00:08:47.399
characterisation.

186
00:08:47.460 --> 00:08:50.159
I think now it's less of a matter of not thinking before he

187
00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:50.519
speaks.

188
00:08:50.580 --> 00:08:53.159
He knows exactly what he's saying and he knows exactly what the

189
00:08:53.159 --> 00:08:54.000
effect is going to be.

190
00:08:54.059 --> 00:08:56.940
And it goes back to something you said when we were recording the

191
00:08:56.940 --> 00:09:02.220
twin dilematod in that we go from having a doctor who is very

192
00:09:02.220 --> 00:09:07.200
passive and sort of is happy to sit back and watch events unfold

193
00:09:07.200 --> 00:09:07.980
and then step in.

194
00:09:08.039 --> 00:09:11.940
So having a doctor who is proactive for better or for worse, you

195
00:09:11.940 --> 00:09:15.659
know, he might blunder into a situation and then have to fix what

196
00:09:15.659 --> 00:09:17.879
he's done, but that is a deliberate choice.

197
00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:24.960
I think the problem here is a combination of the fact that, and

198
00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:27.779
we've said this quite a bit, The production team are now just

199
00:09:27.779 --> 00:09:30.000
making Doctor Who because that's what we do now.

200
00:09:30.059 --> 00:09:33.360
You know, we're making Doctor Who because we've always made Doctor

201
00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:33.720
Who.

202
00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:38.519
The problem then arises because Colin and Nicola come in and they

203
00:09:38.519 --> 00:09:44.220
are enthusiastic and talented and want to make this a real go.

204
00:09:44.399 --> 00:09:48.480
And they're kind of the only 2 people that enthused for the

205
00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:48.899
project.

206
00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:52.740
So they're not getting material that's worthy for them.

207
00:09:52.799 --> 00:09:56.279
Unlike, however, Peter Davidson.

208
00:09:56.340 --> 00:09:59.580
Because Peter got some material that wasn't worthy of him.

209
00:09:59.639 --> 00:10:03.419
And you can kind of see he's visibly bored and phoning it in.

210
00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:07.139
It's a competent performance, but there's not much intent behind

211
00:10:07.139 --> 00:10:07.559
the eyes.

212
00:10:07.740 --> 00:10:12.360
Colin and Nicola, regardless of the material they're given.

213
00:10:12.419 --> 00:10:17.220
Give the same energy and the same dedication and the same.

214
00:10:17.220 --> 00:10:22.559
Believability and verisimilitude in their performance, you know

215
00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:24.000
you believe in these characters.

216
00:10:24.120 --> 00:10:28.200
The problem is you might not like them all the time, especially in

217
00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:30.120
the case of the doctor, you might not like him all the time.

218
00:10:30.179 --> 00:10:32.039
I don't think Perry ever becomes unlikeable.

219
00:10:32.100 --> 00:10:39.720
But there is a truthfulness, even in the early troubled part of

220
00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:43.559
this era, that wasn't always there in the Davis era.

221
00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:49.200
Despite the fact that the quality of the show goes down through no

222
00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:50.399
fault of Colin and Nicola.

223
00:10:50.820 --> 00:10:55.799
I enjoy this era more than the previous era because there is a

224
00:10:55.799 --> 00:11:00.299
greater consistency of delivery.

225
00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:02.580
You kind of know what you're getting.

226
00:11:02.639 --> 00:11:06.539
And when we were discussing season 22, I think there's a hit rate

227
00:11:06.539 --> 00:11:10.500
of 4 good, enjoyable stories out of 6 in there for me.

228
00:11:11.039 --> 00:11:17.639
With Season 23, the biggest surprise for me watching this, and as

229
00:11:17.639 --> 00:11:20.100
our listeners now know, I sat down and watched it all in one day

230
00:11:20.100 --> 00:11:23.279
is, How good?

231
00:11:23.460 --> 00:11:25.799
Mind Warp mostly is.

232
00:11:25.860 --> 00:11:30.840
It's kind of just the last 10 minutes where it falls apart.

233
00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:34.139
And it's not just the death of Perry in that 10 minutes because

234
00:11:34.139 --> 00:11:36.419
dramatically that is something that could have worked.

235
00:11:36.480 --> 00:11:37.860
But again, the emphasis is wrong.

236
00:11:38.460 --> 00:11:43.980
There is an attempt by Ron Jones of all people. to try and give it

237
00:11:43.980 --> 00:11:48.840
some visual flair and, you know, excellent performances, to try

238
00:11:48.840 --> 00:11:51.120
and make this something weighty.

239
00:11:51.179 --> 00:11:54.539
But I think it's undermined even before we get to the retcon at

240
00:11:54.539 --> 00:11:55.200
the end because.

241
00:11:55.620 --> 00:12:00.899
It's Doctor Who doing the kind of death that Doctor Who in the new

242
00:12:00.899 --> 00:12:03.240
series might do and actually having fallout from that.

243
00:12:03.299 --> 00:12:06.120
But there's there's no real fallout.

244
00:12:06.179 --> 00:12:10.019
You know, it's just, it's the initial impact and we don't see

245
00:12:10.019 --> 00:12:11.519
anyone dealing with it or grieving with it.

246
00:12:11.580 --> 00:12:13.259
It was the same problem back with Adrip.

247
00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:14.399
But even then there was a scene.

248
00:12:14.580 --> 00:12:18.539
Of people who knew Adric and loved him discussing it.

249
00:12:18.600 --> 00:12:20.519
You know, whereas this?

250
00:12:20.580 --> 00:12:23.220
The doctor's got no one to talk to about Perry's death.

251
00:12:23.279 --> 00:12:28.860
So, yeah, the big thing I've come away with from this is Colin

252
00:12:28.860 --> 00:12:33.600
Nicola, later, Bonnie, I don't think any of them set a major foot

253
00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:35.639
wrong except for the twin dilemma.

254
00:12:35.700 --> 00:12:39.240
The violence in the twin dilemma from on the part on behalf of the

255
00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:40.500
doctor is still inexcusable.

256
00:12:40.559 --> 00:12:45.120
I know Colin was new, but He knew the show, and he should have

257
00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:47.100
known enough to step up and say, hold on, I think we're taking

258
00:12:47.100 --> 00:12:47.580
this too far.

259
00:12:47.940 --> 00:12:51.899
But aside from that, I don't think any of the 3 of them set a foot

260
00:12:51.899 --> 00:12:54.120
wrong, and I think they're very poorly served by people who aren't

261
00:12:54.120 --> 00:12:55.259
interested in their jobs anymore.

262
00:12:55.679 --> 00:12:57.240
Interesting.

263
00:12:57.659 --> 00:13:01.500
It comes at a weird time in our own personal sort of Doctor Who

264
00:13:01.500 --> 00:13:02.700
journey, though, doesn't it?

265
00:13:02.759 --> 00:13:06.240
Because you and me told, at least, because we're at a particular

266
00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:10.559
age where we're starting to own the program a bit, you know, like

267
00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:15.419
Tom was the doctor when we kind of started watching, I think.

268
00:13:15.480 --> 00:13:16.860
Is that right?

269
00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:21.539
And so, you know, Pete and Colin are our 1st new doctors and we

270
00:13:21.539 --> 00:13:24.240
kind of watch that unfold.

271
00:13:24.299 --> 00:13:27.779
I remember being really excited when Colin came along because I

272
00:13:27.779 --> 00:13:29.460
thought this is going to be our doctor.

273
00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:34.139
I've grown to appreciate Pete's performance, particularly during

274
00:13:34.139 --> 00:13:36.360
you know, our flight through entirety.

275
00:13:36.419 --> 00:13:42.059
But I think at the time, he, didn't really grab me.

276
00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:47.639
And so I understand that feeling that this sort of new, a new sort

277
00:13:47.639 --> 00:13:52.379
of big bombastic doctor in the, in the kind of mould of Tom Baker

278
00:13:52.379 --> 00:13:53.940
which is what I think we thought we were getting.

279
00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:58.440
I remember saying to a friend of the podcast, Matthew Farrow, this

280
00:13:58.440 --> 00:14:00.539
is, this is going to be our doctor.

281
00:14:00.600 --> 00:14:01.860
This is gonna be really something.

282
00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:05.460
He is my doctor.

283
00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:07.259
Yeah, he is my doctor.

284
00:14:07.259 --> 00:14:08.940
And I'm really proud of that. you know?

285
00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:12.240
He came along at the time I needed him to come along.

286
00:14:12.299 --> 00:14:15.960
And the, I can't fault his performance.

287
00:14:16.019 --> 00:14:18.120
I just I just can't fault it.

288
00:14:18.179 --> 00:14:21.720
One of the things that you said, Nathan, is the location work and

289
00:14:21.720 --> 00:14:25.080
a real strength, and that's something I really have appreciated

290
00:14:25.080 --> 00:14:26.100
this time through.

291
00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:29.759
And also his lightness of touch in season 23.

292
00:14:29.940 --> 00:14:33.240
It's a very different performance and I never really have seen it

293
00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:33.419
before.

294
00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:35.639
It's only now looking back.

295
00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:41.639
That you then look at those harder edges in season 22 with the

296
00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:42.720
character, right?

297
00:14:42.779 --> 00:14:46.259
Which I can now see a lot more of.

298
00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:51.299
And I don't necessarily have a problem with them, but it's

299
00:14:51.299 --> 00:14:55.139
something that, you know, at the end of the season, it seems to be

300
00:14:55.139 --> 00:14:57.419
softening by revelation of the Daleks.

301
00:14:57.480 --> 00:15:00.059
But it could not have continued in that same way.

302
00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:05.100
And I think one of the things is if the show hadn't have been axed

303
00:15:05.100 --> 00:15:06.840
or removed for 18 months.

304
00:15:07.139 --> 00:15:10.919
We, of course, have taken a journey into the season that that

305
00:15:10.919 --> 00:15:11.399
never was.

306
00:15:11.460 --> 00:15:16.019
And when I was choosing that particular set of stories, which I

307
00:15:16.019 --> 00:15:19.440
recommended to listeners, it was choosing the ones that I felt

308
00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:21.600
could bridge between what actually exists.

309
00:15:21.659 --> 00:15:24.299
And so I went for all the the positives.

310
00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:24.960
Yeah.

311
00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:27.360
But when you actually sit down and you look at that season, that

312
00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:31.200
never was and what the production team was not bringing to the

313
00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:36.360
table in terms of originality, would they have really addressed

314
00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:40.500
the peri doctoral relationship in a really meaningful way if they

315
00:15:40.500 --> 00:15:43.500
had not been stopped by the BBC to say, look, things have to

316
00:15:43.500 --> 00:15:43.679
change.

317
00:15:43.740 --> 00:15:46.860
You know, if nothing had been said, would it have just continued

318
00:15:46.860 --> 00:15:47.100
on?

319
00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:48.240
Do you know what I mean?

320
00:15:48.299 --> 00:15:52.080
It did sound like, and it's hard to know, but it certainly sounded

321
00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:55.259
like Colin and Nicola had thought about their performance after 18

322
00:15:55.259 --> 00:15:59.340
months away and had decided that these 2 wouldn't be travelling

323
00:15:59.340 --> 00:16:02.340
together if they still had their season 22 relationship going.

324
00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:05.580
That's true, but I'm saying like if we had got the season that

325
00:16:05.580 --> 00:16:06.059
never was.

326
00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:08.460
I don't, I'm not convinced that that would have happened.

327
00:16:08.519 --> 00:16:10.139
No, you're right.

328
00:16:10.200 --> 00:16:14.940
And and I know that you complain about the lack of ideas and that

329
00:16:14.940 --> 00:16:15.600
sort of thing.

330
00:16:15.659 --> 00:16:18.179
I think in season 22, I don't have a problem with having the

331
00:16:18.179 --> 00:16:21.960
cybermen, all the Centaurans, or the Daleks.

332
00:16:22.019 --> 00:16:24.960
We've had that before in Tom's 1st season to have a new doctor in

333
00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:27.840
but then you needed something new.

334
00:16:27.899 --> 00:16:31.019
Like, like, if that had been the end of Eric Sabard and John

335
00:16:31.019 --> 00:16:31.740
Nathan Turner?

336
00:16:31.799 --> 00:16:35.039
Fair enough, but of course that's, you know, by the bye.

337
00:16:35.100 --> 00:16:38.580
I've come to appreciate season 23 a lot more, a lot more, like

338
00:16:38.580 --> 00:16:41.220
there's so many more positives that I really like in it.

339
00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:46.259
Look, I've gone on about the trial and what I think of that

340
00:16:46.259 --> 00:16:50.460
construct and how poorly that serves the show and it's the wrong

341
00:16:50.460 --> 00:16:52.379
vehicle for them bringing it back.

342
00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:53.580
But I still like it.

343
00:16:53.639 --> 00:16:57.179
Like I've actually, I actually like it, which is bizarre.

344
00:16:57.240 --> 00:17:00.539
I still prefer season 22 over 23 because you've got individual

345
00:17:00.539 --> 00:17:03.480
stories and I still, there's 4 stories in there that I really

346
00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:03.840
love.

347
00:17:03.899 --> 00:17:06.119
And I know it's not everybody's cup of tea.

348
00:17:06.180 --> 00:17:10.559
You know, coming into this, listeners, you know, the original

349
00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:13.980
brief way back was, I was just going to come in and do this era.

350
00:17:14.099 --> 00:17:16.380
I turned up a lot sooner, right?

351
00:17:16.440 --> 00:17:20.220
And so, you know, it's been a joy to be able to do the entire

352
00:17:20.220 --> 00:17:20.819
era.

353
00:17:20.819 --> 00:17:24.359
And I think Richard, you know, we did a switcheroo with season 23

354
00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:28.859
24 because I really wanted 23 and Brendan's outlined, Richard's

355
00:17:28.859 --> 00:17:29.220
reasons.

356
00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:33.720
And if there's just one person out there that, for me, has a

357
00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:36.599
reevaluation of this year and say, look, there is something in

358
00:17:36.599 --> 00:17:39.480
here that I like more than what I did, then I'm really happy.

359
00:17:39.539 --> 00:17:42.839
And all Doctor Who is, to me, imperfect, right?

360
00:17:42.900 --> 00:17:46.859
And sometimes the imperfections in some eras aggravate people more

361
00:17:46.859 --> 00:17:47.940
than others. you know?

362
00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:52.980
And so the imperfections here forced by 45 minute episodes or a

363
00:17:52.980 --> 00:17:54.599
one story season structure.

364
00:17:54.660 --> 00:17:59.279
Don't bother me as much as what other people might be bothered

365
00:17:59.279 --> 00:17:59.579
by.

366
00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:01.559
But I can, but I can see the problems.

367
00:18:01.619 --> 00:18:04.619
I can see, I can, you know, I can see the problems in the writing

368
00:18:04.619 --> 00:18:07.799
in terms of the bitch scenes and that sort of structure in season

369
00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:10.980
22 But, you know, I'm not desperately upset about it.

370
00:18:11.819 --> 00:18:17.579
Yesterday on Facebook, someone posted something asking our opinion

371
00:18:17.579 --> 00:18:21.720
about the Daleks, you know, the original 7 part Dalek story from

372
00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:22.680
season one.

373
00:18:22.740 --> 00:18:25.619
And the only thing that I could say was that I love it to death.

374
00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:30.059
But if I had to sit down and write a 5000 word essay about what's

375
00:18:30.059 --> 00:18:33.900
crap about it, I would have absolutely no difficulty doing that at

376
00:18:33.900 --> 00:18:34.079
all.

377
00:18:34.140 --> 00:18:36.000
And the same with season 17.

378
00:18:36.180 --> 00:18:39.539
You know, season 17 is a lot of cardboard sort of space corridors

379
00:18:39.539 --> 00:18:43.440
and and, you know, with the exception of City of Death.

380
00:18:43.500 --> 00:18:47.640
And, you know, there's a parallel, I think, between season 17 and

381
00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:51.299
season 22 where, again, it's lots of space corridors with science

382
00:18:51.299 --> 00:18:52.859
fiction and things happening.

383
00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:57.539
I think season 17 is saved by the charm of the regulars and the

384
00:18:57.539 --> 00:18:59.099
wit of the script editor.

385
00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:02.460
But, you know, it's not like the show hasn't been like this

386
00:19:02.460 --> 00:19:03.059
before.

387
00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:10.079
I think a big positive of the Colin Baker era is its willingness

388
00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:10.740
to experiment.

389
00:19:11.579 --> 00:19:18.720
Because the Davidson era, I'm I'm struggling to come up with

390
00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:21.420
something that was experimental.

391
00:19:21.420 --> 00:19:21.900
Enlightenment.

392
00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:23.279
Yes, okay.

393
00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:24.240
Modern Undead.

394
00:19:24.299 --> 00:19:25.019
Enlightenment.

395
00:19:25.079 --> 00:19:27.539
Yeah, modern undead with its unusual storytelling.

396
00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:28.440
Yeah, fair enough.

397
00:19:28.500 --> 00:19:29.940
Earth shock.

398
00:19:30.660 --> 00:19:33.839
Yeah, but at the end of Black Orchid.

399
00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:37.740
You shut.

400
00:19:37.740 --> 00:19:40.380
You know what?

401
00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:40.740
Okay.

402
00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:44.519
If you look at various other dog 2 seasons, if you look at season

403
00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:47.220
five, you know, you know, that's the Trout and Monster season.

404
00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:50.759
If you look at season seven, it's like, that's the serious doom

405
00:19:50.759 --> 00:19:51.480
watch style.

406
00:19:51.539 --> 00:19:53.819
Season eight, that's where the master comes in.

407
00:19:53.880 --> 00:19:56.460
Season 11, that's when Sarah Jane arrives.

408
00:19:56.519 --> 00:19:58.680
Season 16, it's the key to time.

409
00:19:58.740 --> 00:20:00.240
Season 17, it's Douglas Adams.

410
00:20:00.299 --> 00:20:01.079
Season 22.

411
00:20:01.259 --> 00:20:03.599
That's the one with the 13 45 minute episodes.

412
00:20:03.599 --> 00:20:05.099
And is it too violent?

413
00:20:05.160 --> 00:20:05.700
Season 23.

414
00:20:05.819 --> 00:20:06.960
That's trial of a timelord.

415
00:20:07.019 --> 00:20:07.619
You know.

416
00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:12.839
They are instantly recognisable things about the whole season.

417
00:20:12.900 --> 00:20:14.160
Yeah.

418
00:20:14.519 --> 00:20:20.339
And it's kind of like, on the one hand, we did have a producer and

419
00:20:20.339 --> 00:20:23.039
a script editor who were tired of working on the show and had

420
00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:26.880
trouble coming up with individually interesting ideas, but they

421
00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:30.359
try instead to come up with overarching ideas of tone.

422
00:20:30.900 --> 00:20:35.339
Which I agree, the tone of season 22 is bizarre.

423
00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:40.920
It's like, imagine season 22, but with the tone and execution, and

424
00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:43.920
performance from Colin of season 23.

425
00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:48.480
I think it would be a lot more fondly remembered because some...

426
00:20:48.660 --> 00:20:50.339
If there was a bit less cannibalism, you reckon?

427
00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:53.279
Well, not even less cannibalism because we're going to see

428
00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:54.359
cannibalism next year.

429
00:20:54.420 --> 00:20:57.180
Don't quite effectively, but still scary.

430
00:20:57.240 --> 00:20:59.700
You know, but not horrible.

431
00:20:59.819 --> 00:21:02.279
And I think that's that's part of the problem.

432
00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:05.279
Doctor Who is always scary, but when it veers into the territory

433
00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:10.319
of being horrible and horrific, Then that becomes a problem.

434
00:21:10.380 --> 00:21:13.019
I think season 22 would be a lot better remembered.

435
00:21:13.259 --> 00:21:17.039
I think the show probably still would have been put on hiatus

436
00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:21.539
because I don't think the show going on hiatus was largely to do

437
00:21:21.539 --> 00:21:22.740
with the quality of the show.

438
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:27.839
I think it was an ideological agenda within the BBC of this looks

439
00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:28.319
cheap.

440
00:21:28.380 --> 00:21:31.079
We're going to get rid of it because season 17 looks cheap and

441
00:21:31.079 --> 00:21:34.619
it's magnificent, you know, even even the space corridors has

442
00:21:34.619 --> 00:21:38.400
Nightmare of Eden has horns of Nimon, which may not be highbrow

443
00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:40.200
high quality, but it's still incredibly enjoyable.

444
00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:47.099
You know, the scripts of season 22, by and large, the stories make

445
00:21:47.099 --> 00:21:50.400
narrative sense, with one or 2 exceptions like the end of time

446
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:50.940
lash.

447
00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:54.299
The relationship between the doctor and Perry could have been

448
00:21:54.299 --> 00:21:57.420
played in a different way without massive changes to dialogue.

449
00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:00.240
What you were saying a moment ago told about, you know, would they

450
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:03.720
have changed direction without the hiatus?

451
00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:05.220
And no, I don't think they would have done.

452
00:22:05.279 --> 00:22:08.700
Because if you read the novelisation of the nightmare fair.

453
00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:12.839
At the beginning, when Perry is complaining about being in

454
00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:16.380
Blackpool and the doctors telling her how wonderful it is, and he

455
00:22:16.380 --> 00:22:18.240
says to her, you're going to enjoy this if it kills you.

456
00:22:18.299 --> 00:22:23.099
The way it's written. is exactly how it is in season 22, like the

457
00:22:23.099 --> 00:22:26.519
doctor grits his teeth and Perry rolls her eyes in lady yoga.

458
00:22:26.579 --> 00:22:33.779
And when it comes to Big finish, doing it, Colin and Nicola

459
00:22:33.779 --> 00:22:38.039
instead play it really warmly and cheekily because they're just

460
00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:41.279
like, we don't have someone up in the box now saying, no, be

461
00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:43.500
nastier, be nastier, be nastier.

462
00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:49.079
So, Yeah, I think the only way the original season 23 would have

463
00:22:49.079 --> 00:22:51.839
been a departure is if Colin and Nicola put their foot down.

464
00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:56.279
And I'm not blaming them for that in this instance because really

465
00:22:56.279 --> 00:22:57.839
that's not an actor's job.

466
00:22:57.960 --> 00:23:01.319
I think it's hard too when you've got a production team who's been

467
00:23:01.319 --> 00:23:05.220
there and know the show and you're coming in. you know, you can't

468
00:23:05.220 --> 00:23:06.779
really own it for a certain length of time.

469
00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:09.599
I've discussed this back in the when we did the twin dilemma.

470
00:23:09.660 --> 00:23:13.200
Um, It's it's the Eric Sabre J and T combo.

471
00:23:13.259 --> 00:23:16.140
And I think Eric became script editor far too soon.

472
00:23:16.200 --> 00:23:19.559
You know, I think he needed to be mentored much like Bob Holmes

473
00:23:19.559 --> 00:23:22.859
was mentored by Terrence Dix with a different script editor, and

474
00:23:22.859 --> 00:23:25.859
then when he's got a clear idea of how to construct stories and

475
00:23:25.859 --> 00:23:27.480
what he wants to do, then come in.

476
00:23:27.539 --> 00:23:29.880
You know, he's come in and he's had to rescue various scripts at

477
00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:32.759
times, and I think done a competent job, but his vision of the

478
00:23:32.759 --> 00:23:37.799
show, and and that whole, where he's taking it, and, and I just

479
00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:40.440
think the whole insular approach back on the history without the

480
00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:43.140
ideas is symptomatic of the fact that he needed.

481
00:23:43.500 --> 00:23:46.500
He made it Christopher H bid me to be there for 3 years.

482
00:23:46.559 --> 00:23:48.660
And that decision comes down to who.

483
00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:52.380
John Nathan Turner, who could have supported him, but John, of

484
00:23:52.380 --> 00:23:56.460
course, you know, is afraid of writers and he loves the show, but

485
00:23:56.460 --> 00:23:59.880
at the same time, his own insecurities have forced a series of

486
00:23:59.880 --> 00:24:00.299
decisions.

487
00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:03.240
Yeah, there's an increasing number of people who won't direct for

488
00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:05.579
him anymore or who won't write for him anymore.

489
00:24:05.640 --> 00:24:09.599
It was the thing that in the slip back novelisation in Eric

490
00:24:09.599 --> 00:24:14.940
Saywood's sort of grotesque parody portrait of John Nathan Turner

491
00:24:14.940 --> 00:24:18.299
where it's only kind of old hacks who are prepared to write

492
00:24:18.299 --> 00:24:22.259
scripts or direct, and anyone sort of inventive and interesting

493
00:24:22.259 --> 00:24:24.839
won't be employed anymore.

494
00:24:24.900 --> 00:24:29.940
And that isn't really, say, it's fold, that is down to J and T. I

495
00:24:29.940 --> 00:24:35.519
think the say would problem is, the, Not necessarily that he's

496
00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:37.740
mining the history of the show.

497
00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:41.880
Um, I think JNT's doing that a bit.

498
00:24:41.940 --> 00:24:44.640
I think he's spending a lot of time at American conventions and

499
00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:50.460
getting a lot of adulation from people who, uh, you know, Like the

500
00:24:50.460 --> 00:24:51.539
Doctor Who Monster book.

501
00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:53.339
So he's pandering to fans.

502
00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:55.559
He doesn't really understand what the show should be doing.

503
00:24:55.619 --> 00:24:56.339
No.

504
00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:00.059
And I think the problem that Saywood brings to the table is a kind

505
00:25:00.059 --> 00:25:05.640
of cynicism where he thinks that the doctor being heroic is kind

506
00:25:05.640 --> 00:25:10.259
of naive and not something that belongs on modern television.

507
00:25:10.259 --> 00:25:16.200
And so he sidelines the doctor or undermines him all the way back

508
00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:19.799
from Pete, you know, in earth shock and resurrection of the

509
00:25:19.799 --> 00:25:20.460
Daleks.

510
00:25:20.460 --> 00:25:25.319
And if you compare it, Russell T. Davies, I think. is capable of

511
00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:30.119
really great cynicism and negativity and there's a kind of abyss

512
00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:32.279
behind his work.

513
00:25:32.339 --> 00:25:36.660
Look at midnight and how awful all the people are on that bus.

514
00:25:36.779 --> 00:25:38.519
United bus lines.

515
00:25:38.579 --> 00:25:38.819
Sorry.

516
00:25:38.940 --> 00:25:43.980
Well, look at Love and Monsters, where he creates a whole heap of

517
00:25:43.980 --> 00:25:47.099
really likeable characters and then just kills them all in this

518
00:25:47.099 --> 00:25:48.180
sort of brutal way.

519
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:53.160
Or if you look at, I think it's episode 6 of cucumber, which is

520
00:25:53.160 --> 00:25:55.920
one of the darkest things I've ever seen on television.

521
00:25:55.980 --> 00:25:58.140
Russell is capable of great cynicism.

522
00:25:58.200 --> 00:26:02.279
But he knows what the show is for and what a family audience

523
00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:03.000
wants.

524
00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:08.160
And he creates a positive role model in the doctor who inspires

525
00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:09.180
people to be better.

526
00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:12.119
He wants to make the show fun.

527
00:26:12.180 --> 00:26:16.859
He's aware that there's a family audience, so he can't rely too

528
00:26:16.859 --> 00:26:20.339
heavily on space corridors that needs to be grounded in reality.

529
00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:23.400
All of those are things that say would lax.

530
00:26:23.460 --> 00:26:26.099
And so his cynicism goes unchecked, I think.

531
00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:28.559
And I think it's spoiling the program at this point.

532
00:26:28.920 --> 00:26:30.900
Yeah, it needs to change.

533
00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:33.900
Like I'm not going to deny that in any way, shape, or form.

534
00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:38.940
I think I think the lack of the lack of current earth stories is a

535
00:26:38.940 --> 00:26:39.420
real problem.

536
00:26:39.480 --> 00:26:43.920
And I would have loved to have seen more of that, you know, with

537
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:44.759
this doctor.

538
00:26:44.819 --> 00:26:48.720
It's too many space corridor spaceships, alien planets.

539
00:26:48.779 --> 00:26:52.680
And this is why I think the coat is a problem, but not in the way

540
00:26:52.680 --> 00:26:53.519
people think it is.

541
00:26:53.579 --> 00:26:55.440
You know, we've said with the coat.

542
00:26:55.500 --> 00:27:00.839
That, It would look weird on modern day earth and what have you.

543
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:04.440
I think maybe the production team thought that, so they're like

544
00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:08.220
let's not put it on modern day earth, and you think, no, Doctor

545
00:27:08.220 --> 00:27:10.380
Who is about breaking stories.

546
00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:13.440
You put him on earth and everyone says to him, what's with the

547
00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:13.740
coat?

548
00:27:13.740 --> 00:27:14.759
and he says, what do you mean?

549
00:27:14.819 --> 00:27:16.920
That's the joke, if you like.

550
00:27:16.980 --> 00:27:21.660
And that is why this doctor is good for children because the

551
00:27:21.660 --> 00:27:23.220
doctor doesn't have a problem with the coat.

552
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:25.920
You know, you there, villain, you have a problem with the coat.

553
00:27:25.980 --> 00:27:26.759
Well, that's not his problem.

554
00:27:26.819 --> 00:27:27.420
It's not.

555
00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:31.079
There's nothing wrong with someone wearing something colourful.

556
00:27:31.140 --> 00:27:35.339
So, I think they kind of limit themselves unnecessarily, and if

557
00:27:35.339 --> 00:27:37.019
they had have had Mondeurf Day stories.

558
00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:39.779
They could have had fun with that limiting, with that limiting

559
00:27:39.779 --> 00:27:40.200
factor.

560
00:27:40.259 --> 00:27:44.099
I mean, you do get rid of the code in like the 2 doctors, like, you

561
00:27:44.099 --> 00:27:45.299
know, it's not around.

562
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:48.480
Yeah, and it looks, I think that outfit looks pretty good.

563
00:27:48.539 --> 00:27:51.299
I actually think the coat works really well on Big Finish

564
00:27:51.299 --> 00:27:53.220
obviously partly because you don't have to look at it.

565
00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:57.240
But they do make jokes about the code.

566
00:27:57.299 --> 00:27:57.900
Exactly.

567
00:27:57.900 --> 00:27:59.579
It does actually play a role.

568
00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:04.380
This is where I kind of think John Nathan Turner's vision of the

569
00:28:04.380 --> 00:28:07.140
program is a real problem because he sees the doctor in a costume

570
00:28:07.140 --> 00:28:09.720
and it's so rigid and you can't change it.

571
00:28:09.779 --> 00:28:13.259
And one of the things, I really love the design of the code

572
00:28:13.319 --> 00:28:13.859
right?

573
00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:18.960
And I think in season 22 for me, it, I find that it generally does

574
00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:19.259
work.

575
00:28:19.319 --> 00:28:21.299
By the time you get to 23, it should not be there.

576
00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:22.259
I think it's a mistake, okay?

577
00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:24.480
Bottom line is in the long term, it is a mistake.

578
00:28:24.539 --> 00:28:27.960
If there was a different producer coming in, or John had a

579
00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:31.200
different, like, idea of what the doctor actually is and who he

580
00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:33.660
actually is, we wouldn't have had that coat for 23.

581
00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:35.220
You look at Tom and John.

582
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:38.220
Yeah, they have the same basic outline, but it changes every year

583
00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:38.519
here.

584
00:28:38.579 --> 00:28:41.339
It's rigidly a costume, you know?

585
00:28:41.339 --> 00:28:44.640
And not only that, they had to remake it, and they remade it

586
00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:45.900
exactly the same.

587
00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:51.420
You know, still have it as patchwork, but have some complementary

588
00:28:51.420 --> 00:28:52.200
colours on there.

589
00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:55.319
Because of course, famously it was made to entirely clash with

590
00:28:55.319 --> 00:28:55.859
itself.

591
00:28:55.920 --> 00:28:59.339
It just needs to be like that blue version that they've done on

592
00:28:59.339 --> 00:29:00.539
the internet.

593
00:29:00.539 --> 00:29:01.140
It just needs to be.

594
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:02.640
It's too unreal.

595
00:29:02.700 --> 00:29:06.539
And to me, it also goes down to the opening credits, which, you

596
00:29:06.539 --> 00:29:09.119
know, they put all the colour in, but it's, it's, you know, it's

597
00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:10.740
just a rehash of paint, right?

598
00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:14.339
Which, you know, it should have been distinctive and their own, own

599
00:29:14.339 --> 00:29:15.119
it, right?

600
00:29:15.180 --> 00:29:19.440
And in season 23, you do get the new theme, but it doesn't work

601
00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:23.519
with the current titles because you're used to the Peter Howell

602
00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:23.940
version.

603
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:24.599
Yeah.

604
00:29:24.660 --> 00:29:29.759
I think there is a possible justification for just rehashing

605
00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:34.140
Peter's visuals, which is the size of the show in America.

606
00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:40.140
So, in a way, that look of titles was becoming synonymous with

607
00:29:40.140 --> 00:29:40.799
Doctor Who.

608
00:29:40.859 --> 00:29:44.880
So it's like, rather than create something entirely new, we've got

609
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:47.519
to keep the brand, because JNT was very conscious of branding

610
00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:49.920
which is part of the reason for the costume idea as well.

611
00:29:49.980 --> 00:29:54.900
It doesn't quite come off, but I think I can see the rationale

612
00:29:54.900 --> 00:29:55.200
there.

613
00:29:55.259 --> 00:29:58.140
Of course, they were talking about doing a new title sequence for

614
00:29:58.140 --> 00:30:02.880
him for trial and didn't because of the 8000 motion control shot

615
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:05.039
of the trial space station, which don't give me wrong.

616
00:30:05.160 --> 00:30:06.299
It looks great.

617
00:30:06.359 --> 00:30:11.160
But the problem is, it kind of highlights the cheapness of

618
00:30:11.160 --> 00:30:11.759
everything else.

619
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:17.099
And I suppose, you know, this era is a bit of an example of an era

620
00:30:17.099 --> 00:30:18.180
of extremes.

621
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:22.500
You know, we get a nice, fun, like fluffy romp, like mark of the

622
00:30:22.500 --> 00:30:25.799
Rani, and then a few weeks later, people are eating their own

623
00:30:25.799 --> 00:30:28.619
relatives as protein supplements, you know.

624
00:30:28.680 --> 00:30:29.519
Yeah.

625
00:30:30.180 --> 00:30:35.339
Oh, this era frustrates me so much because there is so much missed

626
00:30:35.339 --> 00:30:36.240
opportunity here.

627
00:30:36.359 --> 00:30:40.500
And you know, when Colin early on was giving interviews and

628
00:30:40.500 --> 00:30:44.039
talking about how he envisioned the character developing over 8

629
00:30:44.039 --> 00:30:44.460
years.

630
00:30:44.519 --> 00:30:48.420
You can see him doing it on screen when you know that and it's

631
00:30:48.420 --> 00:30:52.920
It's not just sad from a point of view of he got fired from a job

632
00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:53.759
he really loved.

633
00:30:53.819 --> 00:30:56.039
It's sad from a point of view of we didn't get to experience

634
00:30:56.039 --> 00:30:56.579
that.

635
00:30:56.700 --> 00:30:58.740
And I love Sylvester McCoy's doctor.

636
00:30:58.799 --> 00:31:02.220
When you guys earlier were talking about the fact that, you know

637
00:31:02.220 --> 00:31:04.980
watching live, you came to it with Tom and John and then you came

638
00:31:04.980 --> 00:31:07.019
into Pete and Europe left a bit disappointed by him.

639
00:31:07.079 --> 00:31:08.460
But yeah, now Colin is the guy.

640
00:31:08.579 --> 00:31:16.680
The thing is, for me, as a kid, I had John, Tom, Pete, Colin, all

641
00:31:16.680 --> 00:31:18.180
in a mix, all on rotation.

642
00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:22.019
For me, it's Sylvester McCoy who was, you know, he's coming in. hes

643
00:31:22.019 --> 00:31:22.500
my doctor.

644
00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:26.880
Not that I was dissatisfied with any of the others, but I can get

645
00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:30.720
what you're saying about Colin, and especially then, if you're

646
00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:33.660
looking at that, and having that feeling, and then all of a sudden

647
00:31:33.660 --> 00:31:37.740
he disappoints you in some way, that's even more, that's even more

648
00:31:37.740 --> 00:31:38.160
hurtful.

649
00:31:38.940 --> 00:31:43.559
Do you believe that Colin should have been let go at the end of

650
00:31:43.559 --> 00:31:44.460
season 23?

651
00:31:44.519 --> 00:31:46.019
Or is that a useless question?

652
00:31:46.740 --> 00:31:49.140
I think he was the fall guy.

653
00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:51.000
I don't think it was his fault.

654
00:31:51.059 --> 00:31:55.200
And so he was just someone visible to kind of take the blame.

655
00:31:55.259 --> 00:31:56.700
He was sort of a scapegoat.

656
00:31:56.759 --> 00:32:02.220
I do think that the show I do think that his doctor was

657
00:32:02.220 --> 00:32:09.119
misconceived and his departure from the program gave them a chance

658
00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:10.140
to rethink.

659
00:32:10.200 --> 00:32:12.420
And I think they did take that chance.

660
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:16.500
I don't think they just sort of put Sylvester McCoy in a pullover

661
00:32:16.500 --> 00:32:19.980
and pointed him at the direction of studio one and said, go off

662
00:32:19.980 --> 00:32:20.700
and do your thing.

663
00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:27.240
I think that they did think about, um, what he was going to be

664
00:32:27.240 --> 00:32:28.319
like as the doctor.

665
00:32:28.380 --> 00:32:34.079
Um, and I think the only reason that happened isn't because it was

666
00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:37.140
sort of Esther McCoy, it's because Andrew Carmel came in.

667
00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:40.380
And so the real issue was the creative team.

668
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:43.619
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree with you there.

669
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:47.579
It's possible to imagine a change of creative team that goes back

670
00:32:47.579 --> 00:32:51.119
to the drawing board and decides what it is that works and doesn't

671
00:32:51.119 --> 00:32:54.480
work about Colin's doctor and makes it work.

672
00:32:54.539 --> 00:32:58.200
Um, and I think that that would have been possible.

673
00:32:59.099 --> 00:33:00.480
Yeah.

674
00:33:00.660 --> 00:33:05.160
I agree with everything that you've just said, you know, based on

675
00:33:05.160 --> 00:33:10.200
his performance in season 23 and addressing issues that have been

676
00:33:10.200 --> 00:33:10.619
discussed.

677
00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:17.339
He is the full guy, and, you know, behind the scenes, they chose

678
00:33:17.339 --> 00:33:21.599
not to replace the creative team when they could have, they chose

679
00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:23.279
to keep it off the air for 18 months.

680
00:33:23.339 --> 00:33:28.799
You know, which, It's already in the 1980s only on air for 12

681
00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:30.059
weeks, 13 weeks a year.

682
00:33:30.119 --> 00:33:31.680
It's less identifiable.

683
00:33:31.740 --> 00:33:35.160
They're choosing to put it out there that it's in trouble, you

684
00:33:35.160 --> 00:33:39.059
know, so this is, you know, I'm talking about Jonathan Powell and

685
00:33:39.059 --> 00:33:42.359
Michael Gray, who don't like the show. they not supporting it.

686
00:33:42.420 --> 00:33:42.900
Yeah.

687
00:33:42.900 --> 00:33:44.279
And you can see.

688
00:33:44.759 --> 00:33:49.380
Um, I understand like, you know, at the end of this season.

689
00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:51.480
They're not supporting the show.

690
00:33:51.539 --> 00:33:52.920
If they turned around and tried to axe the show.

691
00:33:52.980 --> 00:33:55.079
People would go, well, why don't you get rid of the doctor?

692
00:33:55.140 --> 00:33:55.980
You know?

693
00:33:56.039 --> 00:33:59.640
Because if you look at the history of the show, in terms of pure

694
00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:00.180
ratings.

695
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:03.359
Ratings this year are down by 2.2 million, right?

696
00:34:03.420 --> 00:34:08.340
If you go back to Billy Hartnell, for example, after the Daleks

697
00:34:08.340 --> 00:34:12.119
Master Plan, which is around 9 million, his ratings go down into

698
00:34:12.119 --> 00:34:15.300
the gutter by the end of that season, but behind the scenes

699
00:34:15.300 --> 00:34:19.019
they're putting in place new companions, new production team

700
00:34:19.019 --> 00:34:21.239
they're thinking about the future of the show, Hartnell's going to

701
00:34:21.239 --> 00:34:24.000
be asked to leave, we're thinking about a new actor.

702
00:34:24.059 --> 00:34:27.300
And, you know, Patrick Chowton will come in and the ratings will

703
00:34:27.300 --> 00:34:30.000
go up, you know, to 7.5 to 8.5 million.

704
00:34:30.119 --> 00:34:32.880
And if you keep looking at the patterns throughout the history of

705
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:36.239
the show, you know, at the end of the trout era, the ratings are

706
00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:38.940
down again, but there's a new production team, a new actor coming

707
00:34:38.940 --> 00:34:39.179
in.

708
00:34:39.239 --> 00:34:42.719
The BBC supported even after John's 1st season.

709
00:34:42.780 --> 00:34:44.820
Like at the end of that it does trail off, but then in the 2nd

710
00:34:44.820 --> 00:34:45.840
season, they're tweaking it.

711
00:34:45.900 --> 00:34:48.239
They're putting it in a later time slot, it's suddenly in the top

712
00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:48.480
20.

713
00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:51.300
They're supporting it behind the scenes.

714
00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:53.760
And then the 70s, well, it's a foregone conclusion.

715
00:34:53.820 --> 00:34:57.960
And then when it's perceived that the production values are not

716
00:34:57.960 --> 00:35:01.079
good like in season 17, they've got a new team coming in or and

717
00:35:01.079 --> 00:35:05.699
although Tom's ratings in his last season are a disaster.

718
00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:08.699
He's leaving this, a new doctor coming in, the ratings go back up

719
00:35:08.699 --> 00:35:11.400
from 5000000 to 9 to 10 million. like there's all these patterns.

720
00:35:11.519 --> 00:35:15.239
So on the surface of things, certainly, you could say, Jonathan

721
00:35:15.239 --> 00:35:18.119
Power easily says, well, you know, we brought it back.

722
00:35:18.179 --> 00:35:21.599
It's got less ratings, you know, but they've done nothing behind

723
00:35:21.599 --> 00:35:25.199
the scenes to really support the show, like as far as I'm

724
00:35:25.199 --> 00:35:25.500
concerned.

725
00:35:25.559 --> 00:35:28.860
And so no one is going to tune back into the show next year if

726
00:35:28.860 --> 00:35:31.860
they discover that we have a new script, their data. because no

727
00:35:31.860 --> 00:35:32.579
one can see that.

728
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:36.659
But if you can Colin and replace him.

729
00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:40.380
That's a view a visible change in the program.

730
00:35:40.440 --> 00:35:40.980
Yeah.

731
00:35:40.980 --> 00:35:42.900
And so maybe...

732
00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:45.960
Well, I mean, as I said, after every new doctor, you get a spike

733
00:35:45.960 --> 00:35:46.679
of interest.

734
00:35:46.739 --> 00:35:50.519
Even Colin, you know, the 8.900000 at the beginning of season 22.

735
00:35:50.699 --> 00:35:53.460
Like people have realised that there's a new doctor for one week.

736
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:55.199
There is a visible spike.

737
00:35:55.260 --> 00:36:00.480
But in in axiom and bringing in somebody new, they're obviously

738
00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:03.480
undermining John Nathan Turner even more.

739
00:36:03.539 --> 00:36:05.880
And the other thing they do.

740
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:08.699
Is they move the show against Coronation Street.

741
00:36:08.760 --> 00:36:11.400
Yeah. which is getting 25 to 30000000 viewers.

742
00:36:11.460 --> 00:36:13.500
The opposition's only getting 3 to 4.

743
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:15.960
So what's the notice operandi?

744
00:36:16.019 --> 00:36:18.000
New doctor comes in. might get 5 million.

745
00:36:18.059 --> 00:36:22.739
If it drops down to four, That's lower than this season, right?

746
00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:24.000
Bye bye.

747
00:36:24.059 --> 00:36:25.500
We've tried to rescue it with a new doctor.

748
00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:28.980
But of course, as I mentioned, in our trial of a time lord.

749
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:33.659
Every new story in the Sylvester McCoy era gets like, you know, 5

750
00:36:32.579 --> 00:36:37.860
one, then 5.2 and 5.3 and 5.5 at the beginning of every story.

751
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:40.380
There is a visible new story.

752
00:36:40.440 --> 00:36:44.519
And because you can then next year, compare Doctor Who to other

753
00:36:44.519 --> 00:36:46.559
shows in that slot. getting a 1000000 viewers more.

754
00:36:46.619 --> 00:36:47.159
Yeah.

755
00:36:47.159 --> 00:36:54.000
Anecdotally, I know quite a few people who say that at the end of

756
00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:57.000
twin dilemma or after one of Attack of the Cybermen, they stopped

757
00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:58.739
watching Doctor Who, they didn't like the new doctor.

758
00:36:58.860 --> 00:37:04.500
But, The ratings, you know, you had that spike at the beginning of

759
00:37:04.500 --> 00:37:09.480
22, and then they settle in the high 6s, low 7s, which isn't that

760
00:37:09.480 --> 00:37:13.139
bad compared to Davison, who was getting high 7s, low 8s.

761
00:37:14.099 --> 00:37:19.559
When the show is cancelled slash put on hiatus, because it was

762
00:37:19.559 --> 00:37:21.239
cancelled 1st and then they backpedalled.

763
00:37:21.300 --> 00:37:24.480
Why did they backpedal because of massive fan reaction?

764
00:37:24.599 --> 00:37:28.860
There are individuals and there are a lot of individuals who

765
00:37:28.860 --> 00:37:32.280
stopped watching because they didn't like Colin Baker, but the

766
00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:36.599
important thing is, that was not the majority of the audience

767
00:37:36.599 --> 00:37:40.619
which is the picture we are painted now, when we discuss the

768
00:37:40.619 --> 00:37:41.460
hiatus.

769
00:37:41.519 --> 00:37:44.760
And when we discussed the cancellation, there's this fan wisdom

770
00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:47.039
that everyone hated Colin Baker.

771
00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:51.059
And it's like, okay, no, if you consider the average audience of

772
00:37:51.059 --> 00:37:53.460
the last Davidson season to the average audience of the 1st Colin

773
00:37:53.460 --> 00:37:58.139
Baker season, 18th of the audience hate a Colin Baker, just over

774
00:37:58.139 --> 00:37:58.679
10%.

775
00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:01.559
And that's being generous, you know, there might just be people

776
00:38:01.559 --> 00:38:04.260
who couldn't tune in for whatever reason, but if we assume that

777
00:38:04.260 --> 00:38:06.900
everyone who stopped watching stopped watching because of Colin

778
00:38:06.900 --> 00:38:12.539
Baker, That's what, 12.5% of the audience didn't like him.

779
00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:16.380
It's significant, but it's not disastrous, and the ratings are

780
00:38:16.380 --> 00:38:16.739
still good.

781
00:38:17.099 --> 00:38:20.219
Ratings generally go down anyway too.

782
00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:24.119
You have to control for the fact that, you know, over the years

783
00:38:24.119 --> 00:38:27.719
there's more kinds of media and things like that.

784
00:38:27.780 --> 00:38:28.679
Yeah, absolutely.

785
00:38:28.739 --> 00:38:32.159
And, you know, he had stiff competition with with the A team.

786
00:38:32.219 --> 00:38:34.260
You know, it was like Buck Rogers back in season 18.

787
00:38:34.679 --> 00:38:38.340
Or Batman or Batman at the controls.

788
00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:43.019
Um, you fast forward 2 years to where they fire Colin to get

789
00:38:43.019 --> 00:38:43.739
someone else in.

790
00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:48.179
And I puzzled for years over that.

791
00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:49.679
It's like, you know what?

792
00:38:49.739 --> 00:38:51.059
They did everything you asked.

793
00:38:51.179 --> 00:38:53.940
The ratings while lower.

794
00:38:54.059 --> 00:38:55.440
Were steady.

795
00:38:55.500 --> 00:38:58.380
There was good audience appreciation figures.

796
00:38:58.440 --> 00:38:59.639
For the trial.

797
00:38:59.699 --> 00:39:02.579
There were pretty decent reviews for it.

798
00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:05.579
Why change?

799
00:39:05.940 --> 00:39:09.599
The star without changing the producer.

800
00:39:09.900 --> 00:39:12.539
Why not just cancel the show?

801
00:39:12.900 --> 00:39:17.940
And I think the whole reason we get Solister McCoy, it's not

802
00:39:17.940 --> 00:39:19.860
because the BBC suddenly care about the show.

803
00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:22.800
It's not because the BBC want people tuning in because they put it

804
00:39:22.800 --> 00:39:24.000
up against Coronation Street.

805
00:39:24.059 --> 00:39:29.400
It's so, in their minds, they're like, it will continue to go down

806
00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:30.900
the ratings will continue to go down.

807
00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:33.420
We will be able to justify cancelling it without getting a massive

808
00:39:33.420 --> 00:39:34.079
backlash again.

809
00:39:34.139 --> 00:39:34.739
Yes.

810
00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:39.000
It's become a point scoring exercise now, from the people on the

811
00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:39.480
top floor.

812
00:39:39.539 --> 00:39:41.159
And the last thing they expect to happen.

813
00:39:41.340 --> 00:39:47.280
Is this script editor to come in, and to get the job by saying, in

814
00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:50.519
the interview, when asked the question, what do you want to do

815
00:39:50.519 --> 00:39:51.300
with Doctor Who?

816
00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:54.239
Andrew Cartmel responds with, I want to bring down the

817
00:39:54.239 --> 00:39:54.719
government.

818
00:39:54.780 --> 00:39:57.719
They're not expecting. not expecting anyone to care about the

819
00:39:57.719 --> 00:39:57.960
show.

820
00:39:58.019 --> 00:39:58.739
Yeah.

821
00:39:58.739 --> 00:40:01.019
They're not expecting anyone who works on it to care about it

822
00:40:01.019 --> 00:40:05.039
because they've just seen for 2 years that the 2 people in charge

823
00:40:05.039 --> 00:40:08.579
are making it because it's because it's still being made.

824
00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:09.119
And you know what?

825
00:40:09.179 --> 00:40:09.780
I am grateful.

826
00:40:09.780 --> 00:40:13.679
That JNT and Eric Saywood were still making Doctor Who for those 2

827
00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:13.980
years.

828
00:40:14.039 --> 00:40:15.480
I still enjoy it.

829
00:40:15.900 --> 00:40:19.980
But no one at the BBC really understands.

830
00:40:19.980 --> 00:40:23.639
What Doctor Who is meant to be as you keep saying, Nathan.

831
00:40:23.699 --> 00:40:27.480
They just view it as this cash cow, and in 3 years, they're going

832
00:40:27.480 --> 00:40:29.699
to figure out they can make just as much money from it without

833
00:40:29.699 --> 00:40:30.840
spending anything on it.

834
00:40:30.900 --> 00:40:35.340
It's funny, isn't it, that when they do finally cancel it after

835
00:40:35.340 --> 00:40:38.519
season 26, that they don't cancel it.

836
00:40:38.579 --> 00:40:40.920
There's no there's just no announcement.

837
00:40:40.980 --> 00:40:44.940
Yeah, a new season doesn't come back and we have a couple of years

838
00:40:44.940 --> 00:40:49.199
where it's at a time where the BBC is increasingly outsourcing and

839
00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:52.139
doing much less in-house, and so there would be all these rumours

840
00:40:52.139 --> 00:40:55.500
about independent production teams taking it up and stuff.

841
00:40:55.619 --> 00:40:58.320
And eventually that bubbles along for so long that, you know

842
00:40:58.320 --> 00:41:01.800
eventually we realise it's not coming back, but there's never the

843
00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:02.460
outcry.

844
00:41:02.460 --> 00:41:08.639
Um, that we had, you know, at the at the cancellation at the end

845
00:41:08.639 --> 00:41:09.539
of season 22.

846
00:41:09.659 --> 00:41:13.679
I think it's, it's ironic that, you know, at the end of 24, Michael

847
00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:17.880
Gray is gone, to show, despite being put in a death slot and

848
00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:21.960
visibly with, you know, changing the star of it, it actually

849
00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:25.920
outperforms it and they, you know, they're left with, well, if we

850
00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:28.619
cancel it now, people will be going, but it's doing, it's doing

851
00:41:28.619 --> 00:41:29.820
good in this slot, you know?

852
00:41:29.880 --> 00:41:33.300
And then you've got season 25, you've got the whole 25 year thing

853
00:41:33.300 --> 00:41:36.179
that you can use as publicity and that sort of thing.

854
00:41:36.239 --> 00:41:40.320
So throughout all of these events that have happened over the last

855
00:41:40.320 --> 00:41:42.059
2 years, et cetera.

856
00:41:43.079 --> 00:41:47.639
Funnily enough, the show keeps soldiering on to, it's going to get

857
00:41:47.639 --> 00:41:48.840
25 years, you know?

858
00:41:48.900 --> 00:41:49.440
Yeah.

859
00:41:49.500 --> 00:41:52.320
Oh, that's been really quite intense.

860
00:41:52.380 --> 00:41:55.500
I think we need to lighten things up with the sub, Mario, void. we

861
00:41:55.500 --> 00:41:55.800
do that now?

862
00:41:55.860 --> 00:41:56.699
think so.

863
00:41:56.760 --> 00:42:00.420
All right, so I'm going to go with Nathan.

864
00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:02.219
Here's your snog, Mario Void.

865
00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:03.659
Catomara.

866
00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:06.599
Jacqueline Pierce.

867
00:42:07.500 --> 00:42:09.420
Eleanor Braun.

868
00:42:09.480 --> 00:42:09.840
Yes.

869
00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:11.519
Okay, the usual stog Mary boy.

870
00:42:11.579 --> 00:42:12.300
Oh my god.

871
00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:14.519
I don't want to avoid any one of those.

872
00:42:15.059 --> 00:42:17.099
Who would I avoid?

873
00:42:17.219 --> 00:42:22.619
I think I would have to avoid Kate O'Mara because I'm allergic to

874
00:42:22.619 --> 00:42:23.099
cats.

875
00:42:23.940 --> 00:42:29.519
And she has a little she had a little cat sanctuary or something

876
00:42:29.519 --> 00:42:30.539
like that, didn't she?

877
00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:32.579
Or is that just been absolutely fabulous?

878
00:42:32.639 --> 00:42:33.840
Cat's on crack.

879
00:42:33.900 --> 00:42:34.980
Yeah, cats on crack.

880
00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:35.400
Yeah.

881
00:42:35.460 --> 00:42:38.760
So I'd have to avoid her, but it would be, I'd feel bad about that

882
00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:42.659
because she is fabulous, particularly next year when she's dressed

883
00:42:42.659 --> 00:42:45.840
as Bonnie Langford, which I just absolutely adore.

884
00:42:45.900 --> 00:42:53.579
Um, uh, so Jacqueline Pierce has been a lifelong love of mine, uh

885
00:42:53.579 --> 00:42:57.780
she's the only person that I've ever cosplayed as uh, at a

886
00:42:57.780 --> 00:42:58.380
convention.

887
00:42:58.440 --> 00:43:03.119
I dressed as president and supreme commander of the Terran

888
00:43:03.119 --> 00:43:04.800
Federation Serverland.

889
00:43:04.920 --> 00:43:11.400
Um, So I think I'd have to marry her so that I could get sort of

890
00:43:11.400 --> 00:43:15.900
you know, access to sort of fashion tips and and all of that sort

891
00:43:15.900 --> 00:43:16.139
of thing.

892
00:43:16.199 --> 00:43:17.820
Eleanor Braun.

893
00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:21.300
I can't remember who I said my favourite guest star of the season

894
00:43:21.300 --> 00:43:24.360
is, but I'm going to suddenly say that it's her.

895
00:43:24.420 --> 00:43:28.500
So I think, uh, you know, a torrid 15 minutes of passion with uh

896
00:43:28.500 --> 00:43:31.980
Eleanor Braun or something that I wouldn't regret, uh, so uh

897
00:43:31.980 --> 00:43:32.519
that's my answer.

898
00:43:32.579 --> 00:43:33.599
Excellent.

899
00:43:33.659 --> 00:43:34.800
Brendan.

900
00:43:34.860 --> 00:43:37.079
I've been really horrible to you today.

901
00:43:37.139 --> 00:43:37.980
This is terrible.

902
00:43:38.039 --> 00:43:39.179
Okay.

903
00:43:39.239 --> 00:43:40.500
Paul Darrow.

904
00:43:40.679 --> 00:43:42.780
Brian Blessed.

905
00:43:43.559 --> 00:43:45.840
And Martin Jarvis.

906
00:43:45.900 --> 00:43:48.239
Oh, actually, that's not too bad at all.

907
00:43:48.300 --> 00:43:52.199
Look, I think I'd have to avoid Paul Darrow because we'd just try

908
00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:54.480
to act to each other and I don't need the competition.

909
00:43:57.539 --> 00:44:00.300
I think I'd snog Brian Blessed.

910
00:44:00.360 --> 00:44:04.320
Because seriously, if you look at Brian Blessed in the 60s in the

911
00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:07.980
Avengers, and even in Mind War, Brian Blessed's pretty hot, but I

912
00:44:07.980 --> 00:44:09.960
don't think I could live with all that noise.

913
00:44:10.260 --> 00:44:14.579
So, you know, yeah, Toro affair with Brian Blessett and Mary

914
00:44:14.579 --> 00:44:15.900
Martin Jarvis, he's lovely.

915
00:44:15.960 --> 00:44:18.420
He's married to Rosalind Dares, you know.

916
00:44:18.480 --> 00:44:20.280
They both have exquisite tastes.

917
00:44:20.340 --> 00:44:23.460
So yeah, I think I'd have to marry my Martin Jarvis in a in like a

918
00:44:23.460 --> 00:44:24.360
3 way marriage thing.

919
00:44:24.420 --> 00:44:25.860
I have no desire to usurper.

920
00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:29.280
Uh, Snogg, Brian Blessed, Mary Martin, Jarvis avoid Paul Darrow.

921
00:44:29.340 --> 00:44:29.880
Right.

922
00:44:29.880 --> 00:44:30.539
Excellent.

923
00:44:30.599 --> 00:44:32.820
Well, here's my snog barrier void.

924
00:44:32.880 --> 00:44:34.260
Yes, I've skewed this people.

925
00:44:34.320 --> 00:44:36.239
Jason Connery.

926
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:38.099
Luke?

927
00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:39.239
Gary Katie.

928
00:44:39.300 --> 00:44:40.139
Dibber.

929
00:44:41.219 --> 00:44:43.199
Oh, fire.

930
00:44:43.260 --> 00:44:45.360
So I'm avoiding Jason Connery.

931
00:44:45.420 --> 00:44:47.699
Because he's just terribly wooden.

932
00:44:47.760 --> 00:44:49.800
I'm snogging Luke.

933
00:44:49.860 --> 00:44:51.780
Yep, before the tree episode.

934
00:44:51.840 --> 00:44:53.639
When I'm marrying Dipper.

935
00:44:54.300 --> 00:44:56.400
That's a man.

936
00:44:56.400 --> 00:44:58.079
Enough said, and he's funny.

937
00:44:58.679 --> 00:45:01.619
I think I just ended that slightly.

938
00:45:01.679 --> 00:45:05.519
I think I, um, I think I'd snog Deborah and marry Luke just

939
00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:10.079
because, um, you know, Luke, with, without the whole tree

940
00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:11.219
episode.

941
00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:13.440
So let's just write that out of Canon.

942
00:45:13.500 --> 00:45:15.719
But also, you know, Dibba being a convicted criminal.

943
00:45:15.780 --> 00:45:20.579
No, I just want kind of 15 minutes and a cup with him rather than

944
00:45:20.579 --> 00:45:23.460
you know, be looking over my shoulder every day of married life.

945
00:45:23.519 --> 00:45:26.880
You could have like lovely picnics under Luke. couldn't you?

946
00:45:26.940 --> 00:45:27.960
Once he turned into a tree.

947
00:45:28.019 --> 00:45:30.480
You know, I think that would be all right.

948
00:45:30.539 --> 00:45:34.199
Has he provide you with oxygen and shade?

949
00:45:34.260 --> 00:45:36.840
Has anyone else read the book, sister Kate?

950
00:45:36.900 --> 00:45:39.480
There's a scene in that involving a tree.

951
00:45:39.539 --> 00:45:40.380
Anyway, moving on.

952
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:48.960
So we talk about top 3 stories and the opposite, the least

953
00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:49.739
favourite.

954
00:45:49.739 --> 00:45:50.880
Three stories.

955
00:45:50.940 --> 00:45:56.159
So let's go with the least favourite, your bottom 3 if you have to

956
00:45:56.159 --> 00:45:56.460
choose.

957
00:45:57.000 --> 00:45:59.579
I can always start if you'd like me to.

958
00:45:59.639 --> 00:46:00.539
Yeah, go on.

959
00:46:00.659 --> 00:46:02.340
Timelash?

960
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:04.739
Twin dilemma.

961
00:46:04.980 --> 00:46:07.260
And trial of a Time Lord.

962
00:46:08.820 --> 00:46:10.980
All right, that's pretty good.

963
00:46:11.039 --> 00:46:12.840
Mine would be pretty similar.

964
00:46:12.900 --> 00:46:14.639
I don't think time lash is very good.

965
00:46:14.699 --> 00:46:19.019
I hate twin dilemma. one of my very bottom stories.

966
00:46:19.079 --> 00:46:22.139
You had it top of your bottom 10, I think, at one point, Todd.

967
00:46:22.199 --> 00:46:23.639
Yeah, it's still there.

968
00:46:23.699 --> 00:46:24.179
Yeah.

969
00:46:24.239 --> 00:46:25.860
So I think Toon Dilemma's terrible.

970
00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:30.239
I think timelashes sort of, you know, it's got some things going

971
00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:32.159
for it, but it's sort of basically incompetent.

972
00:46:33.780 --> 00:46:40.800
I think that vengeance on Varos is massively overrated, but um

973
00:46:40.800 --> 00:46:45.000
it's not bad enough for me to want to put it in the bottom three.

974
00:46:45.059 --> 00:46:50.940
I'm sorry, I'm thinking maybe Attack of the Cybermen comes in as

975
00:46:50.940 --> 00:46:51.780
one of my bottom three.

976
00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:54.239
Brendan.

977
00:46:54.300 --> 00:46:56.880
The twin dilemma for reasons we've already discussed.

978
00:46:57.000 --> 00:46:59.880
The 2 doctors, as I said at the time, I just think it's far too

979
00:46:59.880 --> 00:47:03.239
long and I think losing the New Orleans stuff without something as

980
00:47:03.239 --> 00:47:07.199
good to replace it in the Spain stuff just means, you know, we're

981
00:47:07.199 --> 00:47:07.860
running around.

982
00:47:07.920 --> 00:47:11.820
Well, they're still very pretty part of Severe, but as some friend

983
00:47:11.820 --> 00:47:14.519
of the podcast, Simon Moore has told us.

984
00:47:14.579 --> 00:47:16.139
It's not even the pretty bit of Seville.

985
00:47:16.199 --> 00:47:20.699
And then for my 3rd slot, look, it's between time lash and mind

986
00:47:20.699 --> 00:47:21.239
warp.

987
00:47:21.659 --> 00:47:26.639
And okay, so the case for time lash is it's pretty boring.

988
00:47:26.699 --> 00:47:31.320
It's badly executed, the case for mind warp is, it's got a

989
00:47:31.320 --> 00:47:33.840
horrible ending, but the thing is mind warp is still very well

990
00:47:33.840 --> 00:47:34.320
directed.

991
00:47:34.380 --> 00:47:37.079
It's well written and it's well performed, whereas Timelash has

992
00:47:37.079 --> 00:47:37.559
Vina.

993
00:47:37.619 --> 00:47:43.019
Um, so I think it has to be time lash, even though out of those

994
00:47:43.019 --> 00:47:43.559
three.

995
00:47:43.619 --> 00:47:47.280
I'm very happy to rewatch Time Lash and still very much enjoy it

996
00:47:47.280 --> 00:47:52.440
whereas 2 doctors, I derive little enjoyment from and the twin

997
00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:54.960
dilemma, I derive almost no enjoyment from.

998
00:47:55.019 --> 00:48:00.480
So, yeah, twin dilemma, the 2 doctors, and time lash.

999
00:48:00.539 --> 00:48:01.500
All right.

1000
00:48:01.559 --> 00:48:05.099
So let's go with the other end of the spectrum, the 3 that you

1001
00:48:05.099 --> 00:48:05.820
enjoy the most.

1002
00:48:06.300 --> 00:48:11.940
So I would say the 2 doctors is the best Colin Baker story.

1003
00:48:12.420 --> 00:48:16.500
Because, you know, it's Bob Holmes and it's, I actually quite like

1004
00:48:16.500 --> 00:48:17.159
the length.

1005
00:48:17.219 --> 00:48:20.519
It's got some good location work and it has Jacqueline Pierce in

1006
00:48:20.519 --> 00:48:20.699
it.

1007
00:48:20.760 --> 00:48:25.860
I would say, Revelation of the Daleks come second.

1008
00:48:25.920 --> 00:48:28.980
I think it's well-directed and it's say it's best script.

1009
00:48:29.039 --> 00:48:32.579
It's riffing on something, uh, that's pretty good and it has

1010
00:48:32.579 --> 00:48:33.900
Eleanor Braun in it.

1011
00:48:33.960 --> 00:48:34.980
Yes, okay.

1012
00:48:34.980 --> 00:48:36.599
Um, and...

1013
00:48:36.599 --> 00:48:41.639
I really struggled to find a 3rd one.

1014
00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:44.039
Possibly.

1015
00:48:47.219 --> 00:48:48.179
Hmm.

1016
00:48:49.079 --> 00:48:53.940
I can see why people like.

1017
00:48:55.619 --> 00:48:59.820
I'm going to say, I'm going to say terror of the fur points.

1018
00:48:59.820 --> 00:49:04.559
Because I don't think it's very good, but I think it is kind of

1019
00:49:04.559 --> 00:49:09.179
enjoyable and it's straightforwardly doing something.

1020
00:49:09.239 --> 00:49:15.000
And, you know, as we said in, uh, Mark of the Rani, uh, it gets

1021
00:49:15.000 --> 00:49:18.179
the doctor to be doctor-ish and to kind of solve the problem in an

1022
00:49:18.179 --> 00:49:19.679
ingenious way and things.

1023
00:49:19.739 --> 00:49:22.920
It's marred by the fact of the trial, obviously.

1024
00:49:22.980 --> 00:49:26.039
And it's just fun and camp and silly as well, I think.

1025
00:49:26.099 --> 00:49:28.019
And it has Janet in it.

1026
00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:29.760
Good.

1027
00:49:30.059 --> 00:49:31.440
Right.

1028
00:49:31.500 --> 00:49:33.900
My top three, Mark of the Rani.

1029
00:49:33.960 --> 00:49:37.199
Because there's a lightness of touch to it.

1030
00:49:37.260 --> 00:49:38.460
Cato Mar is great.

1031
00:49:38.699 --> 00:49:42.960
Despite the fact that Anthony only gets the thing to do that I

1032
00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:44.940
think is the main problem with the master and he's just there to

1033
00:49:44.940 --> 00:49:47.579
kill the doctor, he puts in a very good performance as well.

1034
00:49:47.639 --> 00:49:51.000
Colin and Nicola are a great guest caster, all good, much like

1035
00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:53.400
terror the vervoids, it's pretty clear what it's doing.

1036
00:49:53.460 --> 00:49:55.679
Yeah, it's not convoluted at all.

1037
00:49:55.739 --> 00:49:58.199
I would then say attack of the cybermen.

1038
00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:04.440
I think, again, that despite all the continuity and the cyberman's

1039
00:50:04.440 --> 00:50:07.320
plan, it's pretty straightforward, the info dumps, when they do

1040
00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:10.139
come over with quickly, they're light and they tell you exactly

1041
00:50:10.139 --> 00:50:11.039
what you need to know.

1042
00:50:11.099 --> 00:50:15.059
There's some good characterisation of the cryons.

1043
00:50:15.119 --> 00:50:16.980
They're not just the bliz-bloss monsters.

1044
00:50:17.039 --> 00:50:21.239
We get a bit of more complex characterisation with Lytton and the

1045
00:50:21.239 --> 00:50:24.900
you know, the idea that a villain isn't necessarily just someone

1046
00:50:24.900 --> 00:50:25.980
who's evil.

1047
00:50:26.039 --> 00:50:30.179
I also would love the bit at the end where the doctor says, oh, you

1048
00:50:30.179 --> 00:50:31.079
know, maybe I need to change.

1049
00:50:31.199 --> 00:50:35.039
It's a pity that was never really acted upon overtly.

1050
00:50:35.159 --> 00:50:39.539
And of course, I then have to say terror of the vervoids, you know

1051
00:50:39.539 --> 00:50:41.099
I have to agree with you, Nathan.

1052
00:50:41.159 --> 00:50:42.719
It's a simple idea.

1053
00:50:42.780 --> 00:50:43.619
It's done well. well.

1054
00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:45.900
It's got a great guest cast.

1055
00:50:45.960 --> 00:50:48.000
The trial scenes.

1056
00:50:49.079 --> 00:50:51.960
But thankfully they don't go on too long and we just get back to

1057
00:50:51.960 --> 00:50:52.500
the plot.

1058
00:50:52.500 --> 00:50:55.920
Bonnie Langford is a breath of fresh air and we get a great new

1059
00:50:55.920 --> 00:51:00.539
relationship between her as Mel and Colin as the doctor.

1060
00:51:00.599 --> 00:51:04.139
It makes you feel bright for the future of the show.

1061
00:51:04.199 --> 00:51:07.619
You know, if you didn't know that we were only going to see them

1062
00:51:07.619 --> 00:51:08.639
together for 6 episodes.

1063
00:51:08.760 --> 00:51:10.860
You go, yeah, I can watch these 2 for a long time.

1064
00:51:10.920 --> 00:51:13.800
Uh, yeah, so, what was that?

1065
00:51:13.860 --> 00:51:16.800
That was Mark the Rani, Attack of the Cybermen and Tear of the

1066
00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:17.340
Vivoids.

1067
00:51:17.400 --> 00:51:21.119
All right, my top 3 are in no particular order.

1068
00:51:21.179 --> 00:51:24.719
Attack of the Sidemen, which I ideally love, the 2 doctors, which

1069
00:51:24.719 --> 00:51:28.559
I think is super Revelation, the Daleks, which I just thoroughly

1070
00:51:28.559 --> 00:51:28.860
enjoy.

1071
00:51:28.920 --> 00:51:33.179
And if I could edit out all the trial scenes from Mysterious

1072
00:51:33.179 --> 00:51:37.320
Planet, it would be in contention, but it's not so beautiful.

1073
00:51:37.380 --> 00:51:37.920
It's not.

1074
00:51:38.579 --> 00:51:39.960
Yeah.

1075
00:51:40.019 --> 00:51:40.920
So there you go.

1076
00:51:40.980 --> 00:51:46.800
In terms of guest stars or villains or monsters, whom has been

1077
00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:49.980
your favourite in this particular here of the show.

1078
00:51:50.039 --> 00:51:53.219
Nathan, I'm looking at you and you're going to say, Servian

1079
00:51:53.219 --> 00:51:54.300
Jacqueline Pierce, yes?

1080
00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:58.500
No, I, I, you know, I think she's pretty good, but she's doing her

1081
00:51:58.500 --> 00:51:58.980
usual thing.

1082
00:51:59.039 --> 00:52:01.800
I do think Eleanor Braun is really terrific.

1083
00:52:01.860 --> 00:52:04.440
So I guess it's her.

1084
00:52:04.500 --> 00:52:10.619
I think Martin Jarvis is good, but maybe not for the reasons that

1085
00:52:10.619 --> 00:52:11.519
people think.

1086
00:52:11.519 --> 00:52:15.300
I quite like Michael Jason as the valleyard.

1087
00:52:15.360 --> 00:52:16.380
He does a good job.

1088
00:52:16.500 --> 00:52:19.559
Even though he kind of turns into a sort of moustache twirling

1089
00:52:19.559 --> 00:52:20.280
villain at the end.

1090
00:52:20.340 --> 00:52:24.480
As for villains, I think that Sill is really good.

1091
00:52:24.539 --> 00:52:30.480
I think he's by far the best thing in both of the stories that

1092
00:52:30.480 --> 00:52:30.960
he's in.

1093
00:52:31.500 --> 00:52:34.079
I'm pretty much agreeing with you.

1094
00:52:34.139 --> 00:52:35.639
All of those.

1095
00:52:35.699 --> 00:52:39.719
I think you only get Sil as a sort of new villain in the Colin

1096
00:52:39.719 --> 00:52:40.559
Baker era.

1097
00:52:40.679 --> 00:52:42.000
I guess you could count Drathro.

1098
00:52:42.059 --> 00:52:43.019
And the Rani.

1099
00:52:43.079 --> 00:52:44.340
Oh, the Rani?

1100
00:52:44.400 --> 00:52:45.059
No, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1101
00:52:45.119 --> 00:52:45.719
K Tamara.

1102
00:52:45.780 --> 00:52:48.840
Well, I prefer this version of the Rani. and I think it's a better

1103
00:52:48.840 --> 00:52:49.260
performance.

1104
00:52:49.320 --> 00:52:52.500
So, yeah, so definitely Cademara, Serani, I think it's fantastic.

1105
00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:53.760
Eleanor Braun's great.

1106
00:52:53.820 --> 00:52:55.440
I like Jacqueline Pierce.

1107
00:52:55.500 --> 00:52:57.659
I know it's a shtick, but I think it's really wonderful.

1108
00:52:57.719 --> 00:52:59.039
Joan Sims.

1109
00:52:59.099 --> 00:53:00.420
I just love as Katrika.

1110
00:53:00.480 --> 00:53:03.420
One of my reasons for really loving that story.

1111
00:53:03.480 --> 00:53:06.300
You've pinpointed Michael, Jason.

1112
00:53:06.360 --> 00:53:09.300
I think Linda Bellium brings a lot of empathy to that particular

1113
00:53:09.300 --> 00:53:11.340
thankless task of a role.

1114
00:53:11.400 --> 00:53:14.039
Um, And a hat.

1115
00:53:14.159 --> 00:53:15.300
A lovely hat.

1116
00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:21.780
I can't go past Edgeworth. back in the twin dilemma because I

1117
00:53:21.780 --> 00:53:26.460
think it's a lovely performance, um, in spite of everything else.

1118
00:53:27.059 --> 00:53:35.760
Every story, with one exception, has really strong lead guest cast

1119
00:53:35.760 --> 00:53:39.719
and that one exception, of course, is um, Jeanette Crowley, as

1120
00:53:39.719 --> 00:53:40.320
Vina.

1121
00:53:40.380 --> 00:53:42.719
She's just bloody awful.

1122
00:53:42.780 --> 00:53:47.519
Um, the, the actress who plays cats is much better.

1123
00:53:47.579 --> 00:53:53.880
She needs to work on her projection a bit, but she's sympathetic

1124
00:53:53.880 --> 00:53:55.139
and believable in that role.

1125
00:53:55.199 --> 00:53:59.400
So I mean, I wouldn't say she's my favourite of era, but I do want

1126
00:53:59.400 --> 00:54:01.980
to point that out because I think she gets overshadowed a bit by

1127
00:54:01.980 --> 00:54:03.599
how rubbish Vina is.

1128
00:54:03.659 --> 00:54:08.760
Yeah, we've got, Morris Denim giving a great performance in a

1129
00:54:08.760 --> 00:54:09.960
really sub-parscript.

1130
00:54:10.079 --> 00:54:13.679
We've got Maurice Colburn and Brian Glover.

1131
00:54:13.739 --> 00:54:15.119
Oh, yeah.

1132
00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:16.559
In Attack of the Sidement?

1133
00:54:16.619 --> 00:54:17.820
Getting a bit rough, is it?

1134
00:54:17.880 --> 00:54:18.480
Yeah.

1135
00:54:18.480 --> 00:54:22.260
We've got the Cryons, especially Flast, who's locked up with the

1136
00:54:22.260 --> 00:54:24.300
doctor just flirting with the outrageously.

1137
00:54:24.360 --> 00:54:29.760
And, you know, Doctor Who doesn't often show that demonstrations

1138
00:54:29.760 --> 00:54:34.380
of sexuality or sensuality, let alone from an alien character.

1139
00:54:34.500 --> 00:54:37.619
And it's just a nice little character moment.

1140
00:54:38.219 --> 00:54:41.340
Martin Jarvis, of course, Nabil Shabin.

1141
00:54:41.400 --> 00:54:46.260
If I had to pick just one person, as much as I love K Tomara, I

1142
00:54:46.260 --> 00:54:50.099
would pick Nabil Shabin because not only does he create an

1143
00:54:50.099 --> 00:54:54.840
interesting character whom you like despite the fact he's a

1144
00:54:54.840 --> 00:54:55.739
horrible person.

1145
00:54:56.460 --> 00:55:01.980
When he comes back, he builds on that and everything you loved

1146
00:55:01.980 --> 00:55:06.659
about him the 1st time is back even more the 2nd time with even

1147
00:55:06.659 --> 00:55:10.559
more humour, like that line we singled out of, I only wish you'd

1148
00:55:10.559 --> 00:55:13.320
found a more attractive body, which is a great falling action

1149
00:55:13.320 --> 00:55:16.920
moment because we've had this horrible thing we know Perry's dead

1150
00:55:16.920 --> 00:55:22.079
and suddenly we cut to this joke and for once because this era

1151
00:55:22.079 --> 00:55:23.039
does that quite a bit.

1152
00:55:23.099 --> 00:55:25.679
It'll try to undercut something horrible with joke.

1153
00:55:25.739 --> 00:55:29.460
I think this is the only time it really, really strongly works.

1154
00:55:29.519 --> 00:55:33.900
Of course, you've got Cato Mara, and you've got the cast playing

1155
00:55:33.900 --> 00:55:37.380
George Stevenson, Lord Ravensworth, you've got Luke played by Gary

1156
00:55:37.380 --> 00:55:39.539
Katie, who are all good in Mark of the Rani.

1157
00:55:39.659 --> 00:55:45.480
The guest cast are all brilliant in the 2 doctors, even the 2

1158
00:55:45.480 --> 00:55:49.079
sontarians, their makeup, their masks doesn't do them justice, but

1159
00:55:49.079 --> 00:55:51.840
that whole bit about the loneliness of command, and I think I've

1160
00:55:51.840 --> 00:55:53.400
made a tactical error and all that.

1161
00:55:53.460 --> 00:55:53.940
That's all great.

1162
00:55:54.000 --> 00:55:55.320
And Astari.

1163
00:55:55.380 --> 00:55:56.039
I forgot about him.

1164
00:55:56.099 --> 00:55:57.059
Yeah, he's really good.

1165
00:55:57.119 --> 00:55:59.639
Actually, no one's mentioned Herbert as well.

1166
00:55:59.699 --> 00:56:01.320
Oh, I think it's a great performance.

1167
00:56:01.380 --> 00:56:01.800
Yeah.

1168
00:56:01.920 --> 00:56:05.099
Yeah, Herbert and Robert Ashby is the Borad.

1169
00:56:05.159 --> 00:56:06.360
Really great voice.

1170
00:56:06.539 --> 00:56:09.239
Paul Darrow is certainly memorable.

1171
00:56:09.300 --> 00:56:11.159
I like Vina.

1172
00:56:11.219 --> 00:56:13.619
I'm just going to say that people...

1173
00:56:13.619 --> 00:56:14.280
Is she is?

1174
00:56:14.340 --> 00:56:15.239
I really do like her.

1175
00:56:15.360 --> 00:56:19.440
I think she found Katerina's stash of Xanax somewhere in the

1176
00:56:19.440 --> 00:56:21.360
dressing room and that accounts for it.

1177
00:56:21.420 --> 00:56:25.079
Let's not forget about the lovely Janet in...

1178
00:56:25.079 --> 00:56:26.159
Yeah, Land of Palfrey.

1179
00:56:26.219 --> 00:56:26.940
She's really great.

1180
00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:30.239
All of the guest cast in Revelation are good.

1181
00:56:30.300 --> 00:56:32.699
You know, and we discussed at the time, some people don't like

1182
00:56:32.699 --> 00:56:36.179
Jenny Thomasson, but we all love her and we just...

1183
00:56:36.239 --> 00:56:39.780
We totally get the aggression and the repression that's going on

1184
00:56:39.780 --> 00:56:40.380
with that character.

1185
00:56:40.500 --> 00:56:41.699
And Clive Swift.

1186
00:56:41.760 --> 00:56:42.719
Like, I forgot. about him too.

1187
00:56:42.780 --> 00:56:46.920
There's actually a lot of really good guest cast in here.

1188
00:56:46.980 --> 00:56:49.800
And oh, I forgot to mention a few weeks ago when we were doing the

1189
00:56:49.800 --> 00:56:50.880
ultimate foe, of course.

1190
00:56:50.940 --> 00:56:55.679
Jeffrey Hughes turns up in the 2nd of 3 guest spots by keeping up

1191
00:56:55.679 --> 00:56:56.880
appearances actors.

1192
00:56:56.880 --> 00:57:01.139
Yeah, of an annual tradition.

1193
00:57:01.199 --> 00:57:04.800
Yep, Michael Jason, Linda Bellingham, uh, on a Blackman.

1194
00:57:04.860 --> 00:57:10.619
Uh, Joan Sims, Tom Chadbon, Roger Breeley, Patrick Reicart.

1195
00:57:12.239 --> 00:57:19.079
We have possibly, the best array of guest cast actors.

1196
00:57:20.579 --> 00:57:24.239
Consistently appearing in Doctor Who.

1197
00:57:24.300 --> 00:57:27.239
It's kind of J and T's strength, isn't it?

1198
00:57:27.300 --> 00:57:30.480
Like getting big names to agree to appear on the program.

1199
00:57:30.539 --> 00:57:33.900
We didn't go through this list with Pete, did we?

1200
00:57:33.960 --> 00:57:38.699
No, there are great guest characters and big names, I think, in

1201
00:57:38.699 --> 00:57:39.420
pizza era.

1202
00:57:39.480 --> 00:57:41.099
But not necessarily in every story.

1203
00:57:41.159 --> 00:57:45.179
And unlike Pete's era, we don't really have a Beryl Reed style

1204
00:57:45.179 --> 00:57:48.539
example here where we go, oh no, that's woefully miscast, even

1205
00:57:48.539 --> 00:57:50.760
though none of us think they're all wolves.

1206
00:57:50.820 --> 00:57:51.119
Okay.

1207
00:57:51.179 --> 00:57:54.300
Even though only Todd thinks, Beryl Reed, no, no, no.

1208
00:57:54.360 --> 00:57:58.019
No, I'm talking about the father and his cousin in between

1209
00:57:58.019 --> 00:57:58.679
dilemma.

1210
00:57:58.739 --> 00:57:59.340
Oh, yeah.

1211
00:57:59.340 --> 00:58:00.659
No, I won't talk for obeying it.

1212
00:58:00.659 --> 00:58:03.300
And...

1213
00:58:03.360 --> 00:58:05.639
Oh, yeah, but they're not big names. nobody cares about them.

1214
00:58:05.699 --> 00:58:06.780
Yes, it's correct.

1215
00:58:06.840 --> 00:58:07.260
That is correct.

1216
00:58:07.320 --> 00:58:10.679
But yet, they've they've really gone to town.

1217
00:58:10.739 --> 00:58:13.860
It's kind of weird because we've talked about how, in a way, they

1218
00:58:13.860 --> 00:58:18.719
didn't care about, they cared about making a show. with big names

1219
00:58:18.719 --> 00:58:20.699
that they could put on the cover of the radio times.

1220
00:58:20.760 --> 00:58:23.099
And I don't think Colin even got a radio times covered at any

1221
00:58:23.099 --> 00:58:23.280
point.

1222
00:58:24.059 --> 00:58:27.000
But they care enough to get these big names in.

1223
00:58:27.059 --> 00:58:31.139
And contrary to expectations. like we discussed with Joan Sims

1224
00:58:31.139 --> 00:58:32.880
Joan Sims isn't playing it like a carry-on.

1225
00:58:32.940 --> 00:58:36.059
Joan Sims is playing it like, no, I am a 70 year old leader of a

1226
00:58:36.059 --> 00:58:38.400
tribe, and I have seen some stuff go down.

1227
00:58:38.460 --> 00:58:40.440
I'm not an idiot.

1228
00:58:40.500 --> 00:58:44.820
I may be uneducated, but I'm not an idiot, and she plays it

1229
00:58:44.820 --> 00:58:48.119
seriously, and as a result, you believe in that world.

1230
00:58:48.539 --> 00:58:52.260
I mean, it's an era where the right hand does not know what the

1231
00:58:52.260 --> 00:58:53.099
left is doing.

1232
00:58:53.820 --> 00:58:57.119
But yet, such strong guest cast.

1233
00:58:57.179 --> 00:59:00.840
My prime pick is Nabil Shabin, because he appears twice.

1234
00:59:01.139 --> 00:59:06.300
And Every time you see him, and I mean from scene to scene, he

1235
00:59:06.300 --> 00:59:12.300
just builds and I mean, perhaps it is the kind of dedication to

1236
00:59:12.300 --> 00:59:18.480
performance that can only come from someone who has experienced

1237
00:59:18.480 --> 00:59:22.380
hardship and discrimination in his chosen profession of wanting to

1238
00:59:22.380 --> 00:59:25.980
be an actor and having difficulty finding roles because people

1239
00:59:25.980 --> 00:59:27.900
don't want to hire a disabled actor.

1240
00:59:28.019 --> 00:59:34.500
And On the one hand, disabled advocates may look at that

1241
00:59:34.500 --> 00:59:36.780
performance and go, oh, they've customers a villain.

1242
00:59:36.840 --> 00:59:43.559
Whereas his attitude was to create a character and to kind of go

1243
00:59:43.559 --> 00:59:46.440
right, if I need to be the big scary monster, I'm going to be the

1244
00:59:46.440 --> 00:59:47.340
scariest monster.

1245
00:59:47.400 --> 00:59:49.980
I'm going to turn something like laughing into something

1246
00:59:49.980 --> 00:59:50.760
horrible.

1247
00:59:50.820 --> 00:59:55.019
And I just hear other stories about Nabil Shabin acting in other

1248
00:59:55.019 --> 00:59:55.679
productions.

1249
00:59:55.739 --> 00:59:56.340
He was in.

1250
00:59:56.400 --> 01:00:01.199
He was in an audio visual as one of Guy Fawkes gang in the gun, in

1251
01:00:01.199 --> 01:00:04.679
the gun, powder plot, and there's a scene where he's either being

1252
01:00:04.679 --> 01:00:06.420
tortured or he's torturing someone.

1253
01:00:06.539 --> 01:00:09.059
And he said to them, how are we going to achieve this?

1254
01:00:09.119 --> 01:00:14.340
And they say, oh, well, Nabil, you know, we, um, we can do post

1255
01:00:13.619 --> 01:00:16.199
production now and we can add sound effects on later.

1256
01:00:16.260 --> 01:00:17.519
And he said, well, what does it sound like?

1257
01:00:17.579 --> 01:00:19.800
They said, oh, it sounds like metal clanging together and rubbing

1258
01:00:19.800 --> 01:00:20.099
together.

1259
01:00:20.159 --> 01:00:23.039
And when it came time to record the scene, he's recording it in

1260
01:00:23.039 --> 01:00:26.219
his wheelchair, he started ripping bits off his wheelchair and

1261
01:00:26.219 --> 01:00:29.519
clanging them together to make the torture implements.

1262
01:00:29.519 --> 01:00:31.500
And they went, that's perfect.

1263
01:00:31.559 --> 01:00:32.699
We'll keep that in.

1264
01:00:32.760 --> 01:00:35.699
That's the kind of actor Nabil Shabin is.

1265
01:00:35.760 --> 01:00:40.380
And as I say, I wonder if that kind of ingenuity and that kind of

1266
01:00:40.380 --> 01:00:44.639
interiority and characterisation comes from the fact that he would

1267
01:00:44.639 --> 01:00:46.199
have been told no so many times.

1268
01:00:46.260 --> 01:00:47.159
So when he gets a role.

1269
01:00:47.219 --> 01:00:50.280
He says, I'm going to show you what kind of actor I am.

1270
01:00:50.340 --> 01:00:53.460
For me, it goes beyond just respecting that he plays his role.

1271
01:00:53.519 --> 01:00:56.039
It's respecting his respect.

1272
01:00:56.280 --> 01:00:58.559
For what he's doing.

1273
01:00:59.760 --> 01:01:05.639
You touched on Big finish audios in in that, what you've just said

1274
01:01:05.639 --> 01:01:09.420
and we've discussed that in a previous our previous podcast.

1275
01:01:09.420 --> 01:01:12.780
For people out there who perhaps don't particularly warm to this

1276
01:01:12.780 --> 01:01:19.079
era, I think that for me, The 6 doctor audios are generally the

1277
01:01:19.079 --> 01:01:23.460
best. certainly the ones with Bonnie Langford, as Mel, I think, are

1278
01:01:23.460 --> 01:01:26.519
really well written, the ones with Evelyn, I think, generally are

1279
01:01:26.519 --> 01:01:26.880
great.

1280
01:01:26.940 --> 01:01:30.420
Collins performance is wonderful throughout them compared to all

1281
01:01:30.420 --> 01:01:31.139
the other doctors.

1282
01:01:31.199 --> 01:01:31.800
That's just me.

1283
01:01:31.860 --> 01:01:36.599
Um, I also like the stuff with flip and spoiler alert, Jamie and

1284
01:01:36.599 --> 01:01:37.079
Zoe.

1285
01:01:37.139 --> 01:01:43.559
Um, and so, um, Yeah, so if you don't particularly like this era

1286
01:01:43.559 --> 01:01:47.400
but you are into the book 2 audios, I just think that there are so

1287
01:01:47.400 --> 01:01:51.539
many good quality, Colin Baker ones because Big Finish really

1288
01:01:51.539 --> 01:01:51.960
wanted to.

1289
01:01:52.019 --> 01:01:56.340
And particularly Gary Russell at the beginning, really give Colin

1290
01:01:56.340 --> 01:01:57.900
material worthy.

1291
01:01:58.920 --> 01:02:05.760
Yeah, I mean, for our big finish special, last week, there, there

1292
01:02:05.760 --> 01:02:08.760
was one play I was going to recommend and I didn't, and that is

1293
01:02:08.760 --> 01:02:13.380
arrangements for war, which is a 6th doctor in the heat.

1294
01:02:13.440 --> 01:02:17.460
And the main reason I didn't recommend that is it, you know, it's

1295
01:02:17.460 --> 01:02:18.239
a brilliant play.

1296
01:02:18.599 --> 01:02:23.159
Um, but it's kind of the end of a character arc for them, not even

1297
01:02:23.159 --> 01:02:26.880
a story arc, but a character arc of the development of their

1298
01:02:26.880 --> 01:02:27.900
relationship.

1299
01:02:27.960 --> 01:02:31.019
So you really need to have heard the stories leading up to it.

1300
01:02:31.079 --> 01:02:32.880
But that's the thing.

1301
01:02:32.940 --> 01:02:35.099
If I was going to recommend one, I'd say, right, go to the big

1302
01:02:35.099 --> 01:02:38.219
finished page where you can now sort by character, sort by evil

1303
01:02:38.219 --> 01:02:39.780
and put them in chronological order.

1304
01:02:40.260 --> 01:02:44.159
And at the very least, go with everything from her 1st appearance

1305
01:02:44.159 --> 01:02:48.840
in the marrying conspiracy through to arrangements for war and see

1306
01:02:48.840 --> 01:02:54.239
what Colin Baker is capable of doing in the role of this doctor.

1307
01:02:54.300 --> 01:02:57.179
And what I find amazing is he has changed his characterisation in

1308
01:02:57.179 --> 01:03:02.579
those so much because he, when they started, what, 1999, he'd had

1309
01:03:02.579 --> 01:03:06.719
almost 15 years of people telling him what was wrong with his

1310
01:03:06.719 --> 01:03:10.320
character or, you know, at least in their interpretation.

1311
01:03:10.559 --> 01:03:13.320
And what I find interesting about Colin.

1312
01:03:13.380 --> 01:03:16.139
You know, we've joked a bit about him like when he stopped doing

1313
01:03:16.139 --> 01:03:18.840
interviews for Doctor Who magazine because the twin dilemma came

1314
01:03:18.840 --> 01:03:19.739
at the bottom of their poll.

1315
01:03:19.800 --> 01:03:22.739
Well, I think it's because he came at the bottom of their pole as

1316
01:03:22.739 --> 01:03:22.980
well.

1317
01:03:23.039 --> 01:03:28.079
But at the same time, you know, when he talks about his era now

1318
01:03:28.079 --> 01:03:32.519
he'll say things like, um, in my defence, the best thing about the

1319
01:03:32.519 --> 01:03:35.099
code was I was wearing it, looking out instead of having to look

1320
01:03:35.099 --> 01:03:35.460
at it.

1321
01:03:35.519 --> 01:03:41.159
He is incredibly self-aware of the criticisms of his era and has

1322
01:03:41.159 --> 01:03:46.860
sought to redress them not only for himself, but for the fans.

1323
01:03:47.400 --> 01:03:52.679
And despite the fact he changes his character for those audios, it

1324
01:03:52.679 --> 01:03:54.659
is still recognisably the same character.

1325
01:03:54.719 --> 01:03:59.400
And when he records a story with Nicola Bryant, he plays it in a

1326
01:03:59.400 --> 01:04:02.219
different way than when he records a story with Bonnie Langford or

1327
01:04:02.219 --> 01:04:05.639
with Maggie Stables, who plays evil and he's aware of the

1328
01:04:05.639 --> 01:04:07.860
character's chronology and development.

1329
01:04:07.920 --> 01:04:13.079
So if you listen to, I think, Chronologically speaking, his

1330
01:04:13.079 --> 01:04:18.119
earliest story in the Big Finnish Canon is either Davros or Year

1331
01:04:18.119 --> 01:04:22.260
of the Pig, which is said in season 22, He plays the character a

1332
01:04:22.260 --> 01:04:23.519
lot more abrasively.

1333
01:04:23.699 --> 01:04:28.199
Compared to we're in our, which you recommended a few weeks ago

1334
01:04:28.199 --> 01:04:31.920
Todd, or the marrying conspiracy where he 1st meets Evelyn.

1335
01:04:31.980 --> 01:04:34.440
Nathan and I were talking about the marrying conspiracy earlier

1336
01:04:34.440 --> 01:04:35.699
today off mic.

1337
01:04:35.760 --> 01:04:39.480
And he said, well, actually, you can say that.

1338
01:04:39.480 --> 01:04:42.719
I think that Big Finish is free to experiment because they don't

1339
01:04:42.719 --> 01:04:46.500
have to have a TV audience that they're appealing to.

1340
01:04:46.559 --> 01:04:49.019
And so having Evelyn, who's older.

1341
01:04:49.079 --> 01:04:53.219
Um, is great and something that we've never seen on the show, but

1342
01:04:53.219 --> 01:04:55.440
she's someone that Colin can't bully.

1343
01:04:55.500 --> 01:05:00.420
You know, she's older, like older than Colin in the sense that, you

1344
01:05:00.420 --> 01:05:04.320
know, she she looks older than him, you know, if she seems older.

1345
01:05:04.380 --> 01:05:10.260
And so she won't wear his crap, you know, and it's nice, you know

1346
01:05:10.260 --> 01:05:11.699
I think they have a good relationship.

1347
01:05:12.960 --> 01:05:18.119
I mean, you said that he attempts to kind of be mean to her in the

1348
01:05:18.119 --> 01:05:21.659
Marion conspiracy and she kind of slaps it down. exactly.

1349
01:05:21.719 --> 01:05:24.539
I think she bribes him with cake.

1350
01:05:24.599 --> 01:05:28.800
And that's the, they, they also have this master stroker.

1351
01:05:28.860 --> 01:05:31.860
They introduce Evelyn who loves baking chocolate cake.

1352
01:05:31.920 --> 01:05:35.760
And at the beginning of the wrong doctors, which starts with a pre

1353
01:05:35.159 --> 01:05:39.119
credit scene where Evelyn's just left, and the doctor realises

1354
01:05:39.119 --> 01:05:42.480
that now he now he has to go meet Mel for the 1st time.

1355
01:05:42.539 --> 01:05:48.719
It's implied that the reason he's larger when he meets Mel is

1356
01:05:48.719 --> 01:05:51.300
because he's just spent 5 years travelling with Evelyn having a

1357
01:05:51.300 --> 01:05:52.320
chocolate cake every day.

1358
01:05:55.380 --> 01:05:55.800
Humour.

1359
01:05:55.860 --> 01:06:00.059
But also fans, you know, we need to invent a reason that the 6th

1360
01:06:00.059 --> 01:06:01.079
doctor got a bit fat.

1361
01:06:01.139 --> 01:06:02.579
Very true.

1362
01:06:02.639 --> 01:06:03.539
Very true.

1363
01:06:03.900 --> 01:06:07.199
We're almost leaving this era into the next.

1364
01:06:07.260 --> 01:06:10.260
And I always ask the question, you know, what are your thoughts at

1365
01:06:10.260 --> 01:06:15.480
the current time of the forthcoming doctor or era and what perhaps

1366
01:06:15.480 --> 01:06:20.219
you hope to get out of the experience of of watching the era?

1367
01:06:20.880 --> 01:06:27.000
I think that this is the 1st injection of new creative kind of

1368
01:06:27.000 --> 01:06:28.260
lifeblood into the show.

1369
01:06:28.320 --> 01:06:33.300
Um, and, you know, while Eric Saywood had difficulty finding new

1370
01:06:33.300 --> 01:06:33.900
writers.

1371
01:06:33.960 --> 01:06:36.599
Andrew Carmel doesn't, and he finds a whole stable of new

1372
01:06:36.599 --> 01:06:37.260
writers.

1373
01:06:37.320 --> 01:06:40.440
And the show starts to be more grounded.

1374
01:06:40.500 --> 01:06:41.820
There's more things set on earth.

1375
01:06:41.880 --> 01:06:45.780
I think Earth in the recent past becomes a place that it goes.

1376
01:06:45.840 --> 01:06:49.619
It starts to ditch the continuity staff.

1377
01:06:49.679 --> 01:06:55.019
So, uh, next season has the Rani and Sablom glitz.

1378
01:06:55.079 --> 01:07:01.019
Um, but the Rani is a kind of a holdover from the Colin Baker, era

1379
01:07:01.019 --> 01:07:05.639
in season 24, um, and Glitz doesn't really overbalance the story

1380
01:07:05.639 --> 01:07:06.960
that he finds himself in.

1381
01:07:07.019 --> 01:07:10.679
And you know, it doesn't, it doesn't work immediately.

1382
01:07:10.739 --> 01:07:13.260
I think it doesn't start working immediately.

1383
01:07:13.320 --> 01:07:20.099
Um, but, There is a freshness to it. visually.

1384
01:07:20.159 --> 01:07:25.260
And it starts doing things that it hasn't done before or hasn't

1385
01:07:25.260 --> 01:07:26.159
done for a long time.

1386
01:07:26.219 --> 01:07:29.760
And so it comes as a bit of a relief.

1387
01:07:29.820 --> 01:07:34.320
And then when I'm expecting, I think that seasons 25 and 26 are as

1388
01:07:34.320 --> 01:07:37.559
good as anything that the program's done, and there are some

1389
01:07:37.559 --> 01:07:39.599
really extraordinary stories in there.

1390
01:07:39.659 --> 01:07:41.940
And, you know, because no one cares about it.

1391
01:07:42.000 --> 01:07:44.940
It's free to be sophisticated and subversive and stuff like that.

1392
01:07:45.000 --> 01:07:46.139
Hmm.

1393
01:07:46.139 --> 01:07:52.380
I'm going to try to answer this question as if it's December 1986

1394
01:07:52.380 --> 01:07:55.440
and I've just finished watching Trial of a Time Lord, and what do

1395
01:07:55.440 --> 01:07:56.099
I want for the future?

1396
01:07:56.159 --> 01:07:59.400
Um, Ice Warriors.

1397
01:08:00.840 --> 01:08:05.400
Well, actually, I'm thinking that something I've really enjoyed

1398
01:08:05.400 --> 01:08:06.840
about trial is that.

1399
01:08:07.260 --> 01:08:10.440
Although we've had time lords, et cetera.

1400
01:08:10.500 --> 01:08:14.940
For the main plots we've had, there hasn't been a massive reliance

1401
01:08:14.940 --> 01:08:18.720
on, you know, bringing back the cybermen to try and negate the

1402
01:08:18.720 --> 01:08:22.619
events of these 2 stories from the 1960s, while the Daleks are

1403
01:08:22.619 --> 01:08:28.020
building a food plant, and other Daleks turn up, and are mean to

1404
01:08:28.020 --> 01:08:31.079
them, and someone shoots off someone else's hand.

1405
01:08:31.140 --> 01:08:34.619
So I kind of just want stories that work on their own without me

1406
01:08:34.619 --> 01:08:35.460
having to know.

1407
01:08:35.460 --> 01:08:38.520
A previous story I watched years ago.

1408
01:08:38.579 --> 01:08:43.380
I'm liking the emphasis on character relationships and humour.

1409
01:08:43.439 --> 01:08:44.520
I'm hoping that continues.

1410
01:08:47.579 --> 01:08:51.060
I'm liking the diverse ideas and the diverse settings, so I'm

1411
01:08:51.060 --> 01:08:52.920
hoping we get more diversity in that regard.

1412
01:08:53.039 --> 01:08:57.300
And yeah, it the show is feeling fun again.

1413
01:08:57.359 --> 01:09:00.899
The last 2 seasons before this one, so the last season of Davidson

1414
01:09:00.899 --> 01:09:04.800
the 1st season of Colin Baker, I felt, with the increased level of

1415
01:09:04.800 --> 01:09:09.539
violence, that why, why is anyone still travelling?

1416
01:09:09.539 --> 01:09:12.720
on this show where all these horrible things happen.

1417
01:09:12.779 --> 01:09:15.720
You know, Tegan kind of mentioned it and the doctor says I must

1418
01:09:15.720 --> 01:09:17.279
change my ways and then he doesn't.

1419
01:09:17.279 --> 01:09:23.340
Whereas in this season, even though there has been certainly

1420
01:09:23.340 --> 01:09:25.319
violence visited upon Perry.

1421
01:09:25.859 --> 01:09:30.479
Mainly, except for that 10 minutes at the end of that story, it

1422
01:09:30.479 --> 01:09:37.199
has been more fun like it used to be during, well, during the 60s

1423
01:09:37.199 --> 01:09:39.359
during the 70s, during the beginning of Peter Davidson.

1424
01:09:39.420 --> 01:09:40.920
So I'm hoping that fun continues.

1425
01:09:41.039 --> 01:09:44.579
So yeah, more fun, less reliance on the history.

1426
01:09:44.760 --> 01:09:50.279
And more, yeah, more character growth would be what I was hoping

1427
01:09:50.279 --> 01:09:51.000
for in the future.

1428
01:09:51.600 --> 01:09:54.300
And not another 14 episode story.

1429
01:09:55.680 --> 01:09:57.659
Well, agreed there.

1430
01:09:57.720 --> 01:10:00.840
Well, listen, this is my last regular podcast until survival.

1431
01:10:00.899 --> 01:10:04.619
I will be back doing a couple of commentaries, I'm sure, in

1432
01:10:04.619 --> 01:10:05.159
between time.

1433
01:10:05.220 --> 01:10:08.399
So I'm not trying to avoid this era.

1434
01:10:08.460 --> 01:10:11.880
I really think shows like remembrance of the Daleks, 3 quarters of

1435
01:10:11.880 --> 01:10:14.579
great show in the galaxy, having this patrol curse of fenneric, are

1436
01:10:14.579 --> 01:10:16.380
some of the best Doctor Who's of all time.

1437
01:10:16.439 --> 01:10:18.899
And those fighters even better than that.

1438
01:10:18.960 --> 01:10:23.399
And I, and I really enjoy despite problems.

1439
01:10:23.460 --> 01:10:25.199
Silver Nemesis and Battlefield.

1440
01:10:25.260 --> 01:10:27.420
So the last 8 stories of Doctor Who.

1441
01:10:27.479 --> 01:10:31.739
In the JNT era under Andrew Carpenter, I like the 1st 8 stories of

1442
01:10:31.739 --> 01:10:34.979
Doctor Who under JNT and Christopher H.

1443
01:10:34.979 --> 01:10:35.520
Bidmead.

1444
01:10:35.579 --> 01:10:36.479
Blockbus.

1445
01:10:36.539 --> 01:10:36.840
Sorry.

1446
01:10:36.960 --> 01:10:39.539
I think there's a lot of really great stuff going on.

1447
01:10:39.600 --> 01:10:42.539
And it goes back to what you're saying, Nathan, about next year, is

1448
01:10:42.539 --> 01:10:45.720
that there is a new approach and a freshness and there's, there's

1449
01:10:45.720 --> 01:10:50.039
there's a goal and a target, and I think they miss it a lot next

1450
01:10:50.039 --> 01:10:50.340
year.

1451
01:10:50.460 --> 01:10:55.140
But you have to miss something in order to get it and they get

1452
01:10:55.140 --> 01:10:55.319
it.

1453
01:10:55.500 --> 01:10:59.159
I used to vilify season 24 to the absolute hilt.

1454
01:10:59.220 --> 01:11:02.939
And my attitude to it has changed quite a lot over the years.

1455
01:11:03.000 --> 01:11:06.899
I still think there are huge problems in what appears on screen.

1456
01:11:06.960 --> 01:11:10.140
But there are aspects to it that I do like.

1457
01:11:10.260 --> 01:11:11.399
I like Bellage.

1458
01:11:11.460 --> 01:11:15.659
I like Burton, the camp leader in Dodger Banner. one of my

1459
01:11:15.659 --> 01:11:16.680
favourite characters of all time.

1460
01:11:16.739 --> 01:11:20.159
Um, And I like Tabby and Tilda.

1461
01:11:20.220 --> 01:11:23.699
And I think that script and that book, uh, Paradise Towers is one

1462
01:11:23.699 --> 01:11:26.039
of the freshest, uh, stories ever.

1463
01:11:26.100 --> 01:11:27.899
But not what appears on screen.

1464
01:11:27.960 --> 01:11:34.020
And my overriding feeling, From the time, is that, up to this

1465
01:11:34.020 --> 01:11:37.739
point over the last 2 years of the show, my parents really tried

1466
01:11:37.739 --> 01:11:42.479
to stop me watching Doctor Who, stopped me buying Doctor Who, a

1467
01:11:42.479 --> 01:11:44.880
magazine subscription from the news agency.

1468
01:11:45.180 --> 01:11:47.220
They knew what would happen.

1469
01:11:47.279 --> 01:11:50.340
They knew that you would end up guesting on a long-running

1470
01:11:50.340 --> 01:11:53.880
podcasting program. sometime in the future and they were trying to

1471
01:11:53.880 --> 01:11:54.539
save you from it.

1472
01:11:54.600 --> 01:11:56.520
Well, what happened in this season?

1473
01:11:56.579 --> 01:12:00.119
My father actually sat down with me in one of the early episodes

1474
01:12:00.119 --> 01:12:02.699
of the season to try and bond with me, right?

1475
01:12:02.760 --> 01:12:06.960
And I sat there embarrassed by what I was seeing on screen and I

1476
01:12:06.960 --> 01:12:09.119
turned to my father and I said, this isn't very good.

1477
01:12:09.180 --> 01:12:10.619
You don't have to watch it with me.

1478
01:12:10.680 --> 01:12:12.960
And that's the overwhelming feeling.

1479
01:12:13.020 --> 01:12:17.880
Emotion that I get when I watch the 1st 3 stories of this season

1480
01:12:17.880 --> 01:12:20.039
and I have to fight against that, right?

1481
01:12:20.100 --> 01:12:21.659
And you've seen me fight against it.

1482
01:12:21.720 --> 01:12:24.000
Nathan, you've mentioned a number of times that you've seen me

1483
01:12:24.000 --> 01:12:28.439
enjoy, um, Jolton the Man, and I'm not going to deny that the last

1484
01:12:28.439 --> 01:12:32.039
time I watched it, I liked it a lot more than I'd ever liked it

1485
01:12:32.039 --> 01:12:32.340
before.

1486
01:12:32.340 --> 01:12:36.479
And it's this, this change behind the scenes with Andrew and a

1487
01:12:36.479 --> 01:12:39.239
freshness of approach and something new that opens it up.

1488
01:12:39.300 --> 01:12:41.699
You know, I don't want another 14 episode season where everything

1489
01:12:41.699 --> 01:12:44.699
seems to be continuity in upon itself, you need that freshness.

1490
01:12:44.760 --> 01:12:49.739
So the biggest challenge for me is next year to see, what do I

1491
01:12:49.739 --> 01:12:50.220
really like?

1492
01:12:50.279 --> 01:12:51.899
What do I think of Sylvester next year?

1493
01:12:51.960 --> 01:12:56.699
I've never considered him to be my favourite doctor like at times

1494
01:12:56.699 --> 01:12:59.159
I've considered Patrick or John or Tom or Colin.

1495
01:12:59.640 --> 01:13:03.479
But I'm really hoping that when I do sit down and watch next

1496
01:13:03.479 --> 01:13:06.659
season, and this is the 1st time I have to say this is that I

1497
01:13:06.659 --> 01:13:07.500
actually haven't watched ahead.

1498
01:13:07.560 --> 01:13:08.760
Right?

1499
01:13:08.819 --> 01:13:11.579
Every other time we've been doing these podcasts, I'm usually half

1500
01:13:11.579 --> 01:13:15.180
a season to a season ahead, but this time I just, I just stopped

1501
01:13:15.180 --> 01:13:16.380
and I just, I can't do it.

1502
01:13:16.500 --> 01:13:19.260
I've got to be in the right frame of mind to watch what happens

1503
01:13:19.260 --> 01:13:19.619
next.

1504
01:13:19.680 --> 01:13:23.039
I'm hoping by what you guys say, because I'm sure you're going to

1505
01:13:23.039 --> 01:13:27.479
enjoy it much more than what I do, but will it change my opinion

1506
01:13:27.479 --> 01:13:27.899
you know?

1507
01:13:27.960 --> 01:13:29.340
and I think you have to be open to that.

1508
01:13:29.399 --> 01:13:32.640
So yeah, so I'm looking forward to the change, getting rid of Eric

1509
01:13:32.640 --> 01:13:34.859
Seywood, um, a lot.

1510
01:13:35.100 --> 01:13:37.260
And, you know, we'll see.

1511
01:13:38.880 --> 01:13:43.439
But before we finish, there are 3 people we need to talk about, and

1512
01:13:43.439 --> 01:13:47.340
that is Bonnie Langford, Nicola Bryant, and Colin Baker, and just

1513
01:13:47.340 --> 01:13:51.899
briefly, the 2 companions in his era, what they bring and what you

1514
01:13:51.899 --> 01:13:54.180
feel now that you've watched the era.

1515
01:13:54.239 --> 01:13:57.779
Um, I'm quite happy to start.

1516
01:13:58.319 --> 01:14:00.239
Actually, if I may.

1517
01:14:00.600 --> 01:14:02.939
Perry.

1518
01:14:03.000 --> 01:14:03.960
Okay, 1st of all.

1519
01:14:04.140 --> 01:14:06.720
Colin Nicola and Bonnie.

1520
01:14:06.779 --> 01:14:10.020
All play the parts to the absolute best of their ability.

1521
01:14:10.079 --> 01:14:12.239
There's no slacking going on at all.

1522
01:14:12.899 --> 01:14:17.039
Perry's character is very cynical.

1523
01:14:17.340 --> 01:14:21.239
And that works really well with Pete.

1524
01:14:21.300 --> 01:14:26.340
Like when he's breathless and enthusiastic in Andrazani, and she's

1525
01:14:26.340 --> 01:14:29.579
the one warning about danger and calling him a pain and making

1526
01:14:29.579 --> 01:14:32.159
jokes about his glass blowing, et cetera, et cetera.

1527
01:14:32.220 --> 01:14:33.000
That really works.

1528
01:14:33.300 --> 01:14:38.520
The problem becomes when the early 6th doctor is quite cynical as

1529
01:14:38.520 --> 01:14:38.760
well.

1530
01:14:38.819 --> 01:14:42.180
So they're trying to out cynical each other and what'll happen

1531
01:14:42.180 --> 01:14:42.539
is.

1532
01:14:43.800 --> 01:14:47.819
A lot of the arguments between them arise from the fact that he's

1533
01:14:47.819 --> 01:14:51.180
being cynical, but for a moment she's not being cynical.

1534
01:14:51.239 --> 01:14:52.680
And so they fight.

1535
01:14:52.739 --> 01:14:56.159
Whereas when you look at the mysterious planet, when she's being

1536
01:14:56.159 --> 01:15:00.180
cynical, he's doing that thing of not really listening to her, and

1537
01:15:00.180 --> 01:15:04.380
that makes it funny because he's being kind of warm and silly.

1538
01:15:04.439 --> 01:15:08.939
And then you get that great scene where she's distraught, despite

1539
01:15:08.939 --> 01:15:12.119
the fact her world is perfectly safe, and this is long after she

1540
01:15:12.119 --> 01:15:12.960
would be dead anyway.

1541
01:15:13.680 --> 01:15:18.539
And rather than be cynical back at her, the doctor attempts to

1542
01:15:18.539 --> 01:15:20.340
comfort her as he would a child.

1543
01:15:20.399 --> 01:15:24.659
And when that doesn't work, he then adopts a more cynical

1544
01:15:24.659 --> 01:15:28.260
pragmatic viewpoint, but not cruelly, you know, he tries to make a

1545
01:15:28.260 --> 01:15:31.260
joke with her and she brushes it off and he says, look, you know

1546
01:15:31.260 --> 01:15:32.340
that your world is safe.

1547
01:15:32.399 --> 01:15:35.399
You know that this doesn't matter and you know that nothing lasts

1548
01:15:35.399 --> 01:15:35.819
forever.

1549
01:15:35.880 --> 01:15:37.920
So he treats her like an adult in that moment.

1550
01:15:38.039 --> 01:15:42.359
And I think that's the evolution of their characters in that at

1551
01:15:42.359 --> 01:15:44.699
1st they're kind of being cynical children at each other.

1552
01:15:44.699 --> 01:15:47.460
And then they become cynical adults.

1553
01:15:47.520 --> 01:15:53.399
But it's also a problem for the show because compare that to 2

1554
01:15:53.399 --> 01:15:57.479
actors who didn't get along behind the scenes, Tom Baker and

1555
01:15:57.479 --> 01:16:00.840
Louise Jameson, in the invisible enemy when they're going through

1556
01:16:00.840 --> 01:16:03.000
the doctor's brain and they have that beautiful bit where they're

1557
01:16:03.000 --> 01:16:05.220
standing in front of the wind machine and talking about travelling

1558
01:16:05.220 --> 01:16:07.020
into the land of dreams and fantasies.

1559
01:16:07.439 --> 01:16:11.579
It's silly, but that is inviting us to go on adventure.

1560
01:16:11.640 --> 01:16:14.399
And again, I don't blame Colin and Nicola.

1561
01:16:14.520 --> 01:16:16.800
I think I think they do the best they can with the direction

1562
01:16:16.800 --> 01:16:19.979
they're given, and there are some lovely moments of charm between

1563
01:16:19.979 --> 01:16:22.920
them in that 1st season when they're when their characters

1564
01:16:22.920 --> 01:16:26.100
synchronise, and they're not just being cynical and bitchy at each

1565
01:16:26.100 --> 01:16:26.279
other.

1566
01:16:26.340 --> 01:16:28.500
Then when Bonnie comes along.

1567
01:16:28.560 --> 01:16:30.000
There's no chance for cynicism.

1568
01:16:30.060 --> 01:16:33.479
But again, the doctor then gets to be cynical with her and she

1569
01:16:33.479 --> 01:16:34.380
brushes it off.

1570
01:16:34.500 --> 01:16:36.180
And I think that's the thing.

1571
01:16:36.239 --> 01:16:38.460
If you're going to have one character who's being cynical, the

1572
01:16:38.460 --> 01:16:41.699
other character has to be open and you can flip that occasionally

1573
01:16:41.699 --> 01:16:44.279
but having 2 characters be cynical doesn't work.

1574
01:16:44.939 --> 01:16:48.659
But again, Colin, Bonnie, Nicola.

1575
01:16:48.779 --> 01:16:54.479
All incredibly strong performances, I don't know if this is the

1576
01:16:54.479 --> 01:16:57.060
case for Bonnie, but certainly with Colin and Nicola, they've

1577
01:16:57.060 --> 01:16:59.640
spoken about how much they considered their performance and how

1578
01:16:59.640 --> 01:17:00.420
much they thought about it.

1579
01:17:00.479 --> 01:17:03.000
I haven't heard Bonnie talk about her performance that much.

1580
01:17:03.060 --> 01:17:05.279
So I'm not saying she hasn't done that, but I just don't know

1581
01:17:05.279 --> 01:17:05.760
about it.

1582
01:17:06.539 --> 01:17:11.819
I have said this before, but I think there's a problem with having

1583
01:17:11.819 --> 01:17:15.359
just the doctor and one female companion.

1584
01:17:15.420 --> 01:17:20.039
I don't like that conception of the show.

1585
01:17:20.100 --> 01:17:24.779
I think it's too small a regular cast, and there's something

1586
01:17:24.779 --> 01:17:25.560
lonely about it.

1587
01:17:26.340 --> 01:17:31.979
We kind of think that that's the normal state of affairs for the

1588
01:17:31.979 --> 01:17:33.060
show, but of course it isn't.

1589
01:17:33.119 --> 01:17:34.199
It's not that at all.

1590
01:17:34.260 --> 01:17:35.760
Just maybe for a few seasons.

1591
01:17:35.819 --> 01:17:38.220
Um, you know you're right.

1592
01:17:38.279 --> 01:17:39.420
When does it happen?

1593
01:17:39.539 --> 01:17:41.819
Because you've got all the unit people.

1594
01:17:42.119 --> 01:17:46.800
And then, then you have got Sarah and the doctor for a little

1595
01:17:46.800 --> 01:17:46.979
bit.

1596
01:17:47.039 --> 01:17:50.880
You've got Lena and the doctor for a bit, but then you've got K9

1597
01:17:50.880 --> 01:17:52.439
in there as well as a 3rd mix.

1598
01:17:52.500 --> 01:17:54.300
So it really doesn't happen that much.

1599
01:17:54.300 --> 01:17:57.659
Even in the new series, you know, you've got the families, you've

1600
01:17:57.659 --> 01:18:01.500
got Rory, you've got Jack, you've got Mickey, you've got Daddy.

1601
01:18:01.920 --> 01:18:03.180
You've got Nardol now.

1602
01:18:03.239 --> 01:18:05.640
I'm actually really looking forward to that because I've seen

1603
01:18:05.640 --> 01:18:10.199
behind the scenes videos of Pearl and Matt mucking about with the

1604
01:18:10.199 --> 01:18:13.800
TARDIS console and they actually have a really good back and forth

1605
01:18:13.800 --> 01:18:14.399
with each other.

1606
01:18:14.460 --> 01:18:16.500
So I'm hoping that translates onto screen.

1607
01:18:16.560 --> 01:18:17.939
But yeah, I agree with you, Nathan.

1608
01:18:18.000 --> 01:18:19.859
You need 2 people who can gang up on the doctor.

1609
01:18:19.920 --> 01:18:24.479
The 1st time I really felt it was when Pete regenerates into Colin

1610
01:18:24.479 --> 01:18:27.420
and the only person who witnesses that, and the only person that

1611
01:18:27.420 --> 01:18:30.239
it matters to is Perry, and no one else sees it.

1612
01:18:30.300 --> 01:18:36.180
Um, And so the, It makes me a little bit sad somehow.

1613
01:18:36.239 --> 01:18:37.680
It makes the world smaller.

1614
01:18:37.739 --> 01:18:42.180
And we don't get to see them relate to anyone really other than

1615
01:18:42.180 --> 01:18:43.979
guests stars and each other.

1616
01:18:44.039 --> 01:18:47.100
And so I think that's a problem with the show at the moment.

1617
01:18:47.159 --> 01:18:51.420
And it's a reaction, obviously, to how John Nathan Turner started

1618
01:18:51.420 --> 01:18:52.500
the show with a big cast.

1619
01:18:52.800 --> 01:19:02.100
I think that Perry is, A badly conceived character played with

1620
01:19:02.100 --> 01:19:04.800
considerable charm by Nicola.

1621
01:19:04.800 --> 01:19:12.359
I think that the previous for female character, Tegan, who, you

1622
01:19:12.359 --> 01:19:15.659
know, was Bolshy and funny and stood up to the doctor and all of

1623
01:19:15.659 --> 01:19:19.199
that, you know, that she was great, and we replace her with

1624
01:19:19.199 --> 01:19:23.760
someone who, um, is, um, you know, beautiful young woman who is

1625
01:19:23.760 --> 01:19:31.920
menaced and manhandled and mistreated by men and she becomes more

1626
01:19:31.920 --> 01:19:35.579
of a kind of perils appalling.

1627
01:19:35.699 --> 01:19:38.939
Yeah, more than anyone since Victoria, really.

1628
01:19:39.000 --> 01:19:43.619
And she certainly has a worse time of any other companion.

1629
01:19:43.680 --> 01:19:47.220
Like hers is the life that's kind of destroyed by her time with

1630
01:19:47.220 --> 01:19:47.699
the doctor.

1631
01:19:47.880 --> 01:19:52.619
With Mel, again, I think Bonnie Langford has considerable charm.

1632
01:19:52.680 --> 01:19:57.000
I think she does a good job towards the end of season 24, but she

1633
01:19:57.000 --> 01:20:00.119
suffers from the fact, as I said, a couple of weeks ago that 9 out

1634
01:20:00.119 --> 01:20:02.760
of her 1st 10 episodes are written by Pip and Jane Baker.

1635
01:20:02.819 --> 01:20:06.420
She's playing it theatrical, and so all of her lines come across

1636
01:20:06.420 --> 01:20:09.840
as really terribly artificial, but I think she's terribly

1637
01:20:09.840 --> 01:20:10.199
charming.

1638
01:20:10.260 --> 01:20:16.500
I think Colin is saddled with a ill considered conception of the

1639
01:20:16.500 --> 01:20:21.060
character, which he manages more or less to shake off completely

1640
01:20:21.060 --> 01:20:22.739
during his short run.

1641
01:20:23.159 --> 01:20:29.880
And I think that character wasn't designed to play to Colin's

1642
01:20:29.880 --> 01:20:33.539
strengths and the Colin's strengths are that he can be terribly

1643
01:20:33.539 --> 01:20:40.199
funny and silly and rather sweet and the whole idea of an

1644
01:20:40.199 --> 01:20:43.619
unlikeable doctor, which, you know, I guess is what we're kind of

1645
01:20:43.619 --> 01:20:46.439
going through at the moment, that doesn't have to not work.

1646
01:20:46.500 --> 01:20:49.319
I think there's a lot to be said for the way that Peter Capaldi

1647
01:20:49.319 --> 01:20:50.100
plays the part.

1648
01:20:50.159 --> 01:20:54.300
But I don't think it's a good fit for Colin, and I think that it's

1649
01:20:54.300 --> 01:20:58.859
Eric Sayward, in some sense, is trying to undermine the whole idea

1650
01:20:58.859 --> 01:21:03.840
of a hero, but he's too cynical to believe in heroes, and he

1651
01:21:03.840 --> 01:21:05.819
doesn't want the doctor to be a hero.

1652
01:21:05.819 --> 01:21:10.439
And so, you know, he slumps in a chair when they run out of zight

1653
01:21:10.439 --> 01:21:16.079
on 7 or completely fails to solve the problem that they find

1654
01:21:16.079 --> 01:21:18.899
themselves in in a whole bunch of stories and stuff like that.

1655
01:21:18.960 --> 01:21:21.119
So he's really hampered.

1656
01:21:21.180 --> 01:21:24.899
He has some strength, but he's really hampered by the role he's

1657
01:21:24.899 --> 01:21:25.140
given.

1658
01:21:25.199 --> 01:21:26.640
And the coach?

1659
01:21:26.760 --> 01:21:27.960
Horrific.

1660
01:21:28.380 --> 01:21:30.420
All right, well.

1661
01:21:31.079 --> 01:21:35.579
Something up, perhaps, for me, at the end of all this, I do agree

1662
01:21:35.579 --> 01:21:37.439
with a lot of what both of you have said.

1663
01:21:37.500 --> 01:21:42.779
I think Nicola does a wonderful job in a role where Perry is put

1664
01:21:42.779 --> 01:21:47.760
in peril and manhandled and the season 23 Well, at least

1665
01:21:47.760 --> 01:21:51.659
mysterious planet version is fabulous and she gets to show her

1666
01:21:51.659 --> 01:21:52.920
acting chops.

1667
01:21:52.979 --> 01:21:54.779
So thank you, Nicola.

1668
01:21:54.840 --> 01:21:58.439
I really like Bonnie with Colin much more than what will happen

1669
01:21:58.439 --> 01:22:01.560
next year where I think the theatrical performance really almost

1670
01:22:01.560 --> 01:22:03.000
destroys 2 stories for me.

1671
01:22:03.060 --> 01:22:06.899
And that's no, I'm not wanting to have a go at Bonnie.

1672
01:22:07.020 --> 01:22:10.140
I think her enthusiasm cannot be discounted.

1673
01:22:10.199 --> 01:22:12.779
It's a pity that she doesn't get more shows on real earth.

1674
01:22:13.380 --> 01:22:19.979
What I find so amazing about Colin is his status as an ambassador

1675
01:22:19.979 --> 01:22:23.220
for the show, like whenever there's a new doctor and he's

1676
01:22:23.220 --> 01:22:26.880
interviewed, he talks about how happy he's going to be to see Matt

1677
01:22:26.880 --> 01:22:30.060
Smith in the role, how happy he's going to be to see Peter Capaldi

1678
01:22:30.060 --> 01:22:33.899
in the role, considering how he was treated, there is no, he owes

1679
01:22:33.899 --> 01:22:35.520
nothing to the show.

1680
01:22:35.579 --> 01:22:37.560
He really owes nothing to the show.

1681
01:22:37.619 --> 01:22:42.000
I remember seeing ads that he was going to be at conventions in

1682
01:22:42.000 --> 01:22:43.140
the early 90s.

1683
01:22:43.260 --> 01:22:48.300
So he never went off being involved with the show.

1684
01:22:48.359 --> 01:22:51.239
You know, in 1989 he came back and did the stage show, the

1685
01:22:51.239 --> 01:22:51.960
ultimate adventure.

1686
01:22:52.020 --> 01:22:56.460
You know, he took over as 2nd choice after John Pertley and, you

1687
01:22:56.460 --> 01:22:58.140
know, didn't mind at all, didn't complain.

1688
01:22:58.199 --> 01:23:00.180
Compare that to Christopher Eccleston.

1689
01:23:00.479 --> 01:23:04.380
Who has said in recent years he had a bad time on the show.

1690
01:23:04.439 --> 01:23:07.800
He didn't want it the way that Keith Bowick treated extras and

1691
01:23:07.800 --> 01:23:10.020
that's why he quit the show and that's why he doesn't do

1692
01:23:10.020 --> 01:23:12.239
conventions and that's why he won't come back and do the show.

1693
01:23:12.300 --> 01:23:16.140
And the thing is, I'm not criticising him for taking that stand of

1694
01:23:16.140 --> 01:23:19.859
defending someone lower than him in the pecking order.

1695
01:23:19.920 --> 01:23:21.600
But it's like, you know what?

1696
01:23:21.659 --> 01:23:23.939
When you have a bad time, when you have a bad experience.

1697
01:23:24.119 --> 01:23:27.779
There are multiple ways you can deal with it.

1698
01:23:27.840 --> 01:23:30.300
And Collin's way of dealing with it is to separate the horrible

1699
01:23:30.300 --> 01:23:35.640
treatment he had at the hands of the BBC from the love that fans

1700
01:23:35.640 --> 01:23:36.720
have for the show.

1701
01:23:37.140 --> 01:23:39.060
And that's the thing.

1702
01:23:39.119 --> 01:23:42.000
Colin will turn up at a convention, probably knowing that, hey

1703
01:23:42.000 --> 01:23:46.619
maybe 10% of the audience hate me and hate my interpretation, I'm

1704
01:23:46.619 --> 01:23:47.159
not here for them.

1705
01:23:47.220 --> 01:23:49.560
I'm here because you guys love the show.

1706
01:23:49.979 --> 01:23:53.039
And he's very, very proud of his role.

1707
01:23:53.100 --> 01:23:55.979
I made the joke earlier that he didn't get interviewed for Dwim

1708
01:23:55.979 --> 01:23:59.100
for he refused to have anything to do with Dwim for ages because

1709
01:23:59.100 --> 01:24:00.779
he went to the bottom of the poll.

1710
01:24:00.840 --> 01:24:04.199
But at the same time, when you've been kicked for like almost 30

1711
01:24:04.199 --> 01:24:07.140
years about how you played the role, maybe that's a bit

1712
01:24:07.140 --> 01:24:07.739
understandable.

1713
01:24:07.800 --> 01:24:10.079
But the thing is, he did still come back and he just does the

1714
01:24:10.079 --> 01:24:12.539
audios and he does the conventions and he does the charity work.

1715
01:24:12.899 --> 01:24:17.640
And he does it with a big smile on his face because he knows that

1716
01:24:17.640 --> 01:24:19.260
as much as he's criticised.

1717
01:24:19.319 --> 01:24:21.180
He's also loved.

1718
01:24:21.239 --> 01:24:23.760
And I love Colin, and I love his doctor.

1719
01:24:24.779 --> 01:24:31.920
And, you know, Out of Everyone who's played it, including Tom

1720
01:24:31.920 --> 01:24:35.340
Baker, including David Tennant, I think he loves being on Doctor

1721
01:24:35.340 --> 01:24:35.939
Who the most.

1722
01:24:36.000 --> 01:24:38.399
Colin, you know, I just got to say thank you.

1723
01:24:38.460 --> 01:24:39.060
I just.

1724
01:24:40.979 --> 01:24:44.579
No other doctor, I think, has had to put up with the stuff behind

1725
01:24:44.579 --> 01:24:50.939
the scenes and decisions made out of his control, and He came

1726
01:24:50.939 --> 01:24:54.060
along at the right time, and I hope one day Colin does listen to

1727
01:24:54.060 --> 01:24:58.199
this, and we know that he's never going to win best Dr. Paul's.

1728
01:24:58.500 --> 01:25:00.180
Doesn't matter.

1729
01:25:00.239 --> 01:25:01.800
Those polls mean nothing to me.

1730
01:25:01.859 --> 01:25:02.520
I like them all.

1731
01:25:02.579 --> 01:25:05.699
And, you know, Colin, you'll always have my vote.

1732
01:25:23.760 --> 01:25:27.779
We're saying a very premature goodbye to the Baker now, as our

1733
01:25:27.779 --> 01:25:30.600
power systems have been depleted, and we're making an emergency

1734
01:25:30.600 --> 01:25:32.340
landing on the planet Excelon.

1735
01:25:32.460 --> 01:25:34.500
I'm sure everything will be absolutely fine.

1736
01:25:34.560 --> 01:25:36.300
I can't wait to try the resorts there.

1737
01:25:36.359 --> 01:25:40.260
Do come back next week for our commentary on Death to the Daleks.

1738
01:25:40.319 --> 01:25:41.939
I've heard that I heard they have a great steam room.

1739
01:25:42.060 --> 01:25:46.079
Until then, you can find us online at flightthroughentirety.sexy

1740
01:25:46.079 --> 01:25:48.899
flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and at FTE podcast

1741
01:25:48.899 --> 01:25:51.060
on Twitter over on Bondfinger.

1742
01:25:51.119 --> 01:25:55.500
We will shortly be welcoming Pierce Brosnan to the role of James

1743
01:25:55.500 --> 01:25:58.560
Bond in Golden Eye, but until then, we have all preceding Bond

1744
01:25:58.560 --> 01:26:02.760
films, including Casino Royale, 1967, and never say never again.

1745
01:26:02.819 --> 01:26:05.880
You can find that on Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and

1746
01:26:05.880 --> 01:26:08.039
iTunes and Bondfinger cast on Twitter.

1747
01:26:08.100 --> 01:26:11.460
Until next week, may none of your Gumblejack be eaten by

1748
01:26:11.460 --> 01:26:12.300
Spielsnapes.

1749
01:26:12.359 --> 01:26:13.199
Thank you very much for listening.

1750
01:26:13.260 --> 01:26:13.619
Good night.

1751
01:26:13.680 --> 01:26:14.279
Good night.

1752
01:26:14.340 --> 01:26:15.779
See you at survival.

1753
01:26:21.840 --> 01:26:25.739
That was Flight Through Entirety with Todd BLB, Nathan Bottomley

1754
01:26:25.739 --> 01:26:28.319
and Brendan Jones. theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1755
01:26:28.380 --> 01:26:31.979
This episode, Never Going to Win, was reported on the 15th of

1756
01:26:31.979 --> 01:26:32.939
April, 2017.

1757
01:26:33.119 --> 01:26:35.579
Next episode will be released on June 18th.

1758
01:26:35.640 --> 01:26:38.939
We'd like to dedicate this episode to the memory of Maggie's

1759
01:26:38.939 --> 01:26:42.359
Staples. who helped many fans appreciate Colin Baker's doctor in a

1760
01:26:42.359 --> 01:26:42.840
whole new way.

1761
01:26:48.960 --> 01:26:51.000
OK, we've got a field three hours.

1762
01:26:55.319 --> 01:26:56.819
Hello.

1763
01:26:56.880 --> 01:27:01.500
The Colin Baker retrospective, um, 15th of April.

1764
01:27:02.279 --> 01:27:05.279
I don't I don't know if I have an intro.

1765
01:27:05.399 --> 01:27:06.720
You know, this is our sea devil's moment.

1766
01:27:09.779 --> 01:27:11.159
What do you mean?

1767
01:27:11.279 --> 01:27:14.220
our 1st one recorded out of order.

1768
01:27:14.279 --> 01:27:15.420
Oh, yes.

1769
01:27:15.479 --> 01:27:20.819
This is going out after ones that we've yet to record, which we

1770
01:27:20.819 --> 01:27:24.239
can't say because we, if I include this as the tag at its point.

1771
01:27:24.300 --> 01:27:26.220
Oh, but this is going to be after those.

1772
01:27:26.279 --> 01:27:29.159
So now we can say, because we haven't yet recorded time in

1773
01:27:29.159 --> 01:27:32.760
Corporated or the big finished audio thing.

1774
01:27:32.880 --> 01:27:34.439
That's okay.

1775
01:27:34.500 --> 01:27:36.119
Are we talking about the big finish audio?

1776
01:27:36.119 --> 01:27:37.319
I think we can.

1777
01:27:37.380 --> 01:27:38.819
I think we can, yeah, definitely.

1778
01:27:39.239 --> 01:27:43.979
Yeah, but just then I'll have been memory wiped between last

1779
01:27:43.979 --> 01:27:45.779
week's episode of this week's episode.

1780
01:27:45.840 --> 01:27:48.539
Well, you can just talk about the general, I hope.

1781
01:27:49.260 --> 01:27:51.479
God, what am I going to say?

1782
01:27:57.539 --> 01:28:01.619
We're the only Doctor Who podcast coming at you live through your

1783
01:28:01.619 --> 01:28:02.340
ear holes.

1784
01:28:02.399 --> 01:28:03.479
Do you remember that?

1785
01:28:03.539 --> 01:28:04.619
I think I've said that before.

1786
01:28:04.739 --> 01:28:06.720
That's what you say in the 1st episode.

1787
01:28:06.779 --> 01:28:07.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah.