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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 13:50:17

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast you actually recommends wearing real cats on your lapels rather than just badges.

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Don't try that at home and please don't sue.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan I'm Todd.

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And we are exploring the entire lengthy Colin Baker era today with the Colin Baker retrospective.

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I will hand over to you in a moment, Todd, but I'd like to explain 1st why Richard hasn't joined us today.

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As we've discussed before, Richard, At the time, didn't really enjoy the Colin Baker era, he found it difficult to get through.

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And this time around, he has not managed to get through season 22.

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He's just not enjoying it at all, and he felt that it would be unfair both to appear as he hasn't enjoyed the era, and because he hasn't finished the era, and he thought rather than turn up and be negative, Um, he just decided he was going to, you know, not have anything nice to say, not have anything at all.

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As we discussed last week, you know, he loves big finish audios, but just the era as it is on television, he just can't stomach it.

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So that's why Richard isn't joining us today.

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And the reason I'm joining us is because I've got lots of negative things to say about the era.

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Do you?

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Have any positives at all?

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Yeah.

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Have you discovered some things of merit?

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Yeah, yeah.

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Well, that's quite short.

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That's your job to find out.

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I'm handing over to you.

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Thank you.

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Thank you listeners.

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Okay, let's just start with Strong Marrier void.

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I need to start on a positive note.

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So, Brendan, here's your dog, Marrier void.

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Edgeworth, Kimba, or the surviving nappy man.

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Oh, my ponchant for older man has come back to haunt me.

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Look, I think I'd have to avoid the nappy man because he's going to eat me.

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Right.

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You know, so and I'm not judging anyone out there who's into erotic cannibalism.

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It's not my thing.

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Okay.

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I thought that last barbeque we had at yours was really good.

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So I think I would have to Snog Edgeworth.

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Because, you know, it's Morris Denim.

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Good, lots of lovely stories, and we know he can't hold his drink either.

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Um, so he, you know, he'd be fun at parties.

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I think I'd have to marry Kimba for 2 reasons.

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One, he's rich enough to go aboard the Hyperion 3 and two, I know he's going to be dead soon.

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You'll inherit all of that lovely money.

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I am Anna Nicole Smith, you know, people mistake us all the time, despite the fact, I'm not blonde or dead.

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So, um, yeah, I think it's avoid the nappy man.

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Snog, Professor Edgeworth and marry Mr. Kimber.

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Great.

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Nathan.

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God.

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It's not Marion Boyd.

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Eric, say what?

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Philip Martin or Ron Jones?

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Oh, dear.

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Dear, dear, dear.

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So these are responsible for the uh, the train wreck of a story and 2 out of 3 of our puzzling creative choices for um, season 23.

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I think I would avoid Eric Saywood, because if he ever listens to this podcast...

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That's it.

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Philip Martin is actually talented, I think.

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He's got something going for him.

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Um, yeah, let's nog Philip Martin.

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At least that'll stop him talking, I suppose.

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Okay.

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And and Ron Jones.

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You know, he's bringing in a massive BBC paycheque, I think, for directing Doctor Who in the mid 1980s.

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Hed be rolling in it.

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So I'd have to marry him.

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And did you know after he did Mind Warp?

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The reason he didn't work for Doctor Who again was nothing to do with the quality of his work, he actually moved to Germany and directed for television there until he died in 1993.

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Ah.

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That soon after.

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Yeah, yeah, sure.

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Wow.

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So, so much like Mr. Kimba, you know, you've only got a few.

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Yeah.

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I was going to give myself a really good one.

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Now I've got to give myself something that's great.

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No, no, can I give you one?

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Okay, listeners, I'm ready for it.

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I'm not ready for it all.

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No.

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Yes, go for it.

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Snog, marry, avoid.

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Bruckner, Doland, or Lasky.

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Which one's Bruckner?

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He's he's the remember.

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He's the highly strong one with the moustache.

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Yeah, Buckner's Gary McDonald from Mother of the Sun.

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Oh, okay.

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Doland is the curly haired one who is the villain.

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And...

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Well, they know who Lasky is.

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Yes.

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I'm surprised.

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The vervoids actually.

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I'm marrying Lasky.

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Oh God, yeah.

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And um, I think I'm going to avoid the murderer.

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Yeah, no, I think that's why.

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I think that's why.

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So it means I have to snug Gary McDonald from mother and son.

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Oh well, there you go.

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There you go.

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Free moustache ride.

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Oh, wow.

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Wow.

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All right.

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We'll have another one of those.

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Because I told you something.

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No, I've actually got I've actually got one that I that I think you'll rather enjoy.

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Okay, this is probably the most controversial era of the program.

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And we certainly came into it very differing opinions.

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What's your feeling now that you've watched this whole era?

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Has, has, has your opinion changed?

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But the better for the worse.

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I think that the quality of the stories is worse than in the Davison era.

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And I think all the flaws of the Davis and era are really, really apparent in this era.

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So I think the stories are worse.

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I think they're repetitive and unimaginative and, you know, tiresome.

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I think there are some exceptions.

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I thought that the 2 doctors was good because it's Bob Holmes, I thought that Revelation of the Daleks was, say, was best script and was really interesting and was clearly inspired by Holmes.

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So I don't think it's, the stories are completely without merit, but just the tone, I think, is unpleasant.

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I guess what I found is that, The bits of Collins performance that don't work are overwhelmingly to be found in season 22.

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And it's the bullying and the kind of nastiness.

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And that now seems to me to be more easily separable from his performance as a whole.

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It's clear that everyone involved soon regards that as a mistake.

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And it's not really very present in season 23.

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I think there are some things that Colin is very good at, and I guess I hadn't really been aware of this before.

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I think he's funny.

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Um, and I think his doctor works when he's oblivious rather than unpleasant.

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So all of those things he does in season 23 where, you know, the companions warning him about danger and he's kind of ignoring them or agreeing with them and then blundering on anyway.

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And I also think because he's bombastic and overconfident, it's funny when he gets cut down by being wrong and he's very frequently wrong.

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And I think that's funny and sort of rather sweet.

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And so that's something I think I've come to appreciate about his performance.

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And I haven't had the big finish experience that you guys have had.

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But it seems to me that the big Finnish doctor is more likeable than the season 22 doctor.

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And so Colin gets to do things that he's good at and leave behind just the sort of terrible mistakes of the way his doctor was kind of initially characterised.

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Okay, Brendan.

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Yeah, the sort of new thing I've picked up on in this era.

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The 6th doctor has always been a favourite of mine even before Big Finish.

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I think, possibly as a child, I liked the lack of filter, because that is very childlike quality to not think before you speak.

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And there's certainly elements of that in this doctor's characterisation.

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I think now it's less of a matter of not thinking before he speaks.

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He knows exactly what he's saying and he knows exactly what the effect is going to be.

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And it goes back to something you said when we were recording the twin dilematod in that we go from having a doctor who is very passive and sort of is happy to sit back and watch events unfold and then step in.

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So having a doctor who is proactive for better or for worse, you know, he might blunder into a situation and then have to fix what he's done, but that is a deliberate choice.

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I think the problem here is a combination of the fact that, and we've said this quite a bit, The production team are now just making Doctor Who because that's what we do now.

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You know, we're making Doctor Who because we've always made Doctor Who.

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The problem then arises because Colin and Nicola come in and they are enthusiastic and talented and want to make this a real go.

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And they're kind of the only 2 people that enthused for the project.

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So they're not getting material that's worthy for them.

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Unlike, however, Peter Davidson.

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Because Peter got some material that wasn't worthy of him.

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And you can kind of see he's visibly bored and phoning it in.

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It's a competent performance, but there's not much intent behind the eyes.

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Colin and Nicola, regardless of the material they're given.

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Give the same energy and the same dedication and the same.

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Believability and verisimilitude in their performance, you know, you believe in these characters.

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The problem is you might not like them all the time, especially in the case of the doctor, you might not like him all the time.

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I don't think Perry ever becomes unlikeable.

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But there is a truthfulness, even in the early troubled part of this era, that wasn't always there in the Davis era.

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Despite the fact that the quality of the show goes down through no fault of Colin and Nicola.

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I enjoy this era more than the previous era because there is a greater consistency of delivery.

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You kind of know what you're getting.

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And when we were discussing season 22, I think there's a hit rate of 4 good, enjoyable stories out of 6 in there for me.

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With Season 23, the biggest surprise for me watching this, and as our listeners now know, I sat down and watched it all in one day, is, How good?

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Mind Warp mostly is.

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It's kind of just the last 10 minutes where it falls apart.

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And it's not just the death of Perry in that 10 minutes because dramatically that is something that could have worked.

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But again, the emphasis is wrong.

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There is an attempt by Ron Jones of all people. to try and give it some visual flair and, you know, excellent performances, to try and make this something weighty.

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But I think it's undermined even before we get to the retcon at the end because.

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It's Doctor Who doing the kind of death that Doctor Who in the new series might do and actually having fallout from that.

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But there's there's no real fallout.

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You know, it's just, it's the initial impact and we don't see anyone dealing with it or grieving with it.

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It was the same problem back with Adrip.

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But even then there was a scene.

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Of people who knew Adric and loved him discussing it.

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You know, whereas this?

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The doctor's got no one to talk to about Perry's death.

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So, yeah, the big thing I've come away with from this is Colin, Nicola, later, Bonnie, I don't think any of them set a major foot wrong except for the twin dilemma.

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The violence in the twin dilemma from on the part on behalf of the doctor is still inexcusable.

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I know Colin was new, but He knew the show, and he should have known enough to step up and say, hold on, I think we're taking this too far.

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But aside from that, I don't think any of the 3 of them set a foot wrong, and I think they're very poorly served by people who aren't interested in their jobs anymore.

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Interesting.

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It comes at a weird time in our own personal sort of Doctor Who journey, though, doesn't it?

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Because you and me told, at least, because we're at a particular age where we're starting to own the program a bit, you know, like Tom was the doctor when we kind of started watching, I think.

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Is that right?

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And so, you know, Pete and Colin are our 1st new doctors and we kind of watch that unfold.

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I remember being really excited when Colin came along because I thought this is going to be our doctor.

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I've grown to appreciate Pete's performance, particularly during, you know, our flight through entirety.

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But I think at the time, he, didn't really grab me.

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And so I understand that feeling that this sort of new, a new sort of big bombastic doctor in the, in the kind of mould of Tom Baker, which is what I think we thought we were getting.

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I remember saying to a friend of the podcast, Matthew Farrow, this is, this is going to be our doctor.

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This is gonna be really something.

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He is my doctor.

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Yeah, he is my doctor.

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And I'm really proud of that. you know?

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He came along at the time I needed him to come along.

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And the, I can't fault his performance.

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I just I just can't fault it.

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One of the things that you said, Nathan, is the location work and a real strength, and that's something I really have appreciated this time through.

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And also his lightness of touch in season 23.

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It's a very different performance and I never really have seen it before.

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It's only now looking back.

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That you then look at those harder edges in season 22 with the character, right?

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Which I can now see a lot more of.

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And I don't necessarily have a problem with them, but it's something that, you know, at the end of the season, it seems to be softening by revelation of the Daleks.

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But it could not have continued in that same way.

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And I think one of the things is if the show hadn't have been axed or removed for 18 months.

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We, of course, have taken a journey into the season that that never was.

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And when I was choosing that particular set of stories, which I recommended to listeners, it was choosing the ones that I felt could bridge between what actually exists.

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And so I went for all the the positives.

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Yeah.

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But when you actually sit down and you look at that season, that never was and what the production team was not bringing to the table in terms of originality, would they have really addressed the peri doctoral relationship in a really meaningful way if they had not been stopped by the BBC to say, look, things have to change.

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You know, if nothing had been said, would it have just continued on?

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Do you know what I mean?

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It did sound like, and it's hard to know, but it certainly sounded like Colin and Nicola had thought about their performance after 18 months away and had decided that these 2 wouldn't be travelling together if they still had their season 22 relationship going.

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That's true, but I'm saying like if we had got the season that never was.

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I don't, I'm not convinced that that would have happened.

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No, you're right.

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And and I know that you complain about the lack of ideas and that sort of thing.

219
00:16:15.659 --> 00:16:21.960
I think in season 22, I don't have a problem with having the cybermen, all the Centaurans, or the Daleks.

220
00:16:22.019 --> 00:16:27.840
We've had that before in Tom's 1st season to have a new doctor in, but then you needed something new.

221
00:16:27.899 --> 00:16:31.740
Like, like, if that had been the end of Eric Sabard and John Nathan Turner?

222
00:16:31.799 --> 00:16:35.039
Fair enough, but of course that's, you know, by the bye.

223
00:16:35.100 --> 00:16:41.220
I've come to appreciate season 23 a lot more, a lot more, like there's so many more positives that I really like in it.

224
00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:52.379
Look, I've gone on about the trial and what I think of that construct and how poorly that serves the show and it's the wrong vehicle for them bringing it back.

225
00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:53.580
But I still like it.

226
00:16:53.639 --> 00:16:57.179
Like I've actually, I actually like it, which is bizarre.

227
00:16:57.240 --> 00:17:03.840
I still prefer season 22 over 23 because you've got individual stories and I still, there's 4 stories in there that I really love.

228
00:17:03.899 --> 00:17:06.119
And I know it's not everybody's cup of tea.

229
00:17:06.180 --> 00:17:13.980
You know, coming into this, listeners, you know, the original brief way back was, I was just going to come in and do this era.

230
00:17:14.099 --> 00:17:16.380
I turned up a lot sooner, right?

231
00:17:16.440 --> 00:17:20.819
And so, you know, it's been a joy to be able to do the entire era.

232
00:17:20.819 --> 00:17:29.220
And I think Richard, you know, we did a switcheroo with season 23, 24 because I really wanted 23 and Brendan's outlined, Richard's reasons.

233
00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:39.480
And if there's just one person out there that, for me, has a reevaluation of this year and say, look, there is something in here that I like more than what I did, then I'm really happy.

234
00:17:39.539 --> 00:17:42.839
And all Doctor Who is, to me, imperfect, right?

235
00:17:42.900 --> 00:17:47.940
And sometimes the imperfections in some eras aggravate people more than others. you know?

236
00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:54.599
And so the imperfections here forced by 45 minute episodes or a one story season structure.

237
00:17:54.660 --> 00:17:59.579
Don't bother me as much as what other people might be bothered by.

238
00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:01.559
But I can, but I can see the problems.

239
00:18:01.619 --> 00:18:10.980
I can see, I can, you know, I can see the problems in the writing in terms of the bitch scenes and that sort of structure in season 22 But, you know, I'm not desperately upset about it.

240
00:18:11.819 --> 00:18:22.680
Yesterday on Facebook, someone posted something asking our opinion about the Daleks, you know, the original 7 part Dalek story from season one.

241
00:18:22.740 --> 00:18:25.619
And the only thing that I could say was that I love it to death.

242
00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:34.079
But if I had to sit down and write a 5000 word essay about what's crap about it, I would have absolutely no difficulty doing that at all.

243
00:18:34.140 --> 00:18:36.000
And the same with season 17.

244
00:18:36.180 --> 00:18:43.440
You know, season 17 is a lot of cardboard sort of space corridors and and, you know, with the exception of City of Death.

245
00:18:43.500 --> 00:18:52.859
And, you know, there's a parallel, I think, between season 17 and season 22 where, again, it's lots of space corridors with science fiction and things happening.

246
00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:59.099
I think season 17 is saved by the charm of the regulars and the wit of the script editor.

247
00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:03.059
But, you know, it's not like the show hasn't been like this before.

248
00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:10.740
I think a big positive of the Colin Baker era is its willingness to experiment.

249
00:19:11.579 --> 00:19:21.420
Because the Davidson era, I'm I'm struggling to come up with something that was experimental.

250
00:19:21.420 --> 00:19:21.900
Enlightenment.

251
00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:23.279
Yes, okay.

252
00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:24.240
Modern Undead.

253
00:19:24.299 --> 00:19:25.019
Enlightenment.

254
00:19:25.079 --> 00:19:27.539
Yeah, modern undead with its unusual storytelling.

255
00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:28.440
Yeah, fair enough.

256
00:19:28.500 --> 00:19:29.940
Earth shock.

257
00:19:30.660 --> 00:19:33.839
Yeah, but at the end of Black Orchid.

258
00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:37.740
You shut.

259
00:19:37.740 --> 00:19:40.380
You know what?

260
00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:40.740
Okay.

261
00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:47.220
If you look at various other dog 2 seasons, if you look at season five, you know, you know, that's the Trout and Monster season.

262
00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:51.480
If you look at season seven, it's like, that's the serious doom watch style.

263
00:19:51.539 --> 00:19:53.819
Season eight, that's where the master comes in.

264
00:19:53.880 --> 00:19:56.460
Season 11, that's when Sarah Jane arrives.

265
00:19:56.519 --> 00:19:58.680
Season 16, it's the key to time.

266
00:19:58.740 --> 00:20:00.240
Season 17, it's Douglas Adams.

267
00:20:00.299 --> 00:20:01.079
Season 22.

268
00:20:01.259 --> 00:20:03.599
That's the one with the 13 45 minute episodes.

269
00:20:03.599 --> 00:20:05.099
And is it too violent?

270
00:20:05.160 --> 00:20:05.700
Season 23.

271
00:20:05.819 --> 00:20:06.960
That's trial of a timelord.

272
00:20:07.019 --> 00:20:07.619
You know.

273
00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:12.839
They are instantly recognisable things about the whole season.

274
00:20:12.900 --> 00:20:14.160
Yeah.

275
00:20:14.519 --> 00:20:30.359
And it's kind of like, on the one hand, we did have a producer and a script editor who were tired of working on the show and had trouble coming up with individually interesting ideas, but they try instead to come up with overarching ideas of tone.

276
00:20:30.900 --> 00:20:35.339
Which I agree, the tone of season 22 is bizarre.

277
00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:43.920
It's like, imagine season 22, but with the tone and execution, and performance from Colin of season 23.

278
00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:48.480
I think it would be a lot more fondly remembered because some...

279
00:20:48.660 --> 00:20:50.339
If there was a bit less cannibalism, you reckon?

280
00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:54.359
Well, not even less cannibalism because we're going to see cannibalism next year.

281
00:20:54.420 --> 00:20:57.180
Don't quite effectively, but still scary.

282
00:20:57.240 --> 00:20:59.700
You know, but not horrible.

283
00:20:59.819 --> 00:21:02.279
And I think that's that's part of the problem.

284
00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:10.319
Doctor Who is always scary, but when it veers into the territory of being horrible and horrific, Then that becomes a problem.

285
00:21:10.380 --> 00:21:13.019
I think season 22 would be a lot better remembered.

286
00:21:13.259 --> 00:21:22.740
I think the show probably still would have been put on hiatus, because I don't think the show going on hiatus was largely to do with the quality of the show.

287
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:28.319
I think it was an ideological agenda within the BBC of this looks cheap.

288
00:21:28.380 --> 00:21:40.200
We're going to get rid of it because season 17 looks cheap and it's magnificent, you know, even even the space corridors has Nightmare of Eden has horns of Nimon, which may not be highbrow, high quality, but it's still incredibly enjoyable.

289
00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:50.940
You know, the scripts of season 22, by and large, the stories make narrative sense, with one or 2 exceptions like the end of time lash.

290
00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:57.420
The relationship between the doctor and Perry could have been played in a different way without massive changes to dialogue.

291
00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:03.720
What you were saying a moment ago told about, you know, would they have changed direction without the hiatus?

292
00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:05.220
And no, I don't think they would have done.

293
00:22:05.279 --> 00:22:08.700
Because if you read the novelisation of the nightmare fair.

294
00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:18.240
At the beginning, when Perry is complaining about being in Blackpool and the doctors telling her how wonderful it is, and he says to her, you're going to enjoy this if it kills you.

295
00:22:18.299 --> 00:22:26.519
The way it's written. is exactly how it is in season 22, like the doctor grits his teeth and Perry rolls her eyes in lady yoga.

296
00:22:26.579 --> 00:22:43.500
And when it comes to Big finish, doing it, Colin and Nicola instead play it really warmly and cheekily because they're just like, we don't have someone up in the box now saying, no, be nastier, be nastier, be nastier.

297
00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:51.839
So, Yeah, I think the only way the original season 23 would have been a departure is if Colin and Nicola put their foot down.

298
00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:57.839
And I'm not blaming them for that in this instance because really that's not an actor's job.

299
00:22:57.960 --> 00:23:06.779
I think it's hard too when you've got a production team who's been there and know the show and you're coming in. you know, you can't really own it for a certain length of time.

300
00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:09.599
I've discussed this back in the when we did the twin dilemma.

301
00:23:09.660 --> 00:23:13.200
Um, It's it's the Eric Sabre J and T combo.

302
00:23:13.259 --> 00:23:16.140
And I think Eric became script editor far too soon.

303
00:23:16.200 --> 00:23:27.480
You know, I think he needed to be mentored much like Bob Holmes was mentored by Terrence Dix with a different script editor, and then when he's got a clear idea of how to construct stories and what he wants to do, then come in.

304
00:23:27.539 --> 00:23:43.140
You know, he's come in and he's had to rescue various scripts at times, and I think done a competent job, but his vision of the show, and and that whole, where he's taking it, and, and I just think the whole insular approach back on the history without the ideas is symptomatic of the fact that he needed.

305
00:23:43.500 --> 00:23:46.500
He made it Christopher H bid me to be there for 3 years.

306
00:23:46.559 --> 00:23:48.660
And that decision comes down to who.

307
00:23:48.720 --> 00:24:00.299
John Nathan Turner, who could have supported him, but John, of course, you know, is afraid of writers and he loves the show, but at the same time, his own insecurities have forced a series of decisions.

308
00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:05.579
Yeah, there's an increasing number of people who won't direct for him anymore or who won't write for him anymore.

309
00:24:05.640 --> 00:24:24.839
It was the thing that in the slip back novelisation in Eric Saywood's sort of grotesque parody portrait of John Nathan Turner, where it's only kind of old hacks who are prepared to write scripts or direct, and anyone sort of inventive and interesting, won't be employed anymore.

310
00:24:24.900 --> 00:24:37.740
And that isn't really, say, it's fold, that is down to J and T. I think the say would problem is, the, Not necessarily that he's mining the history of the show.

311
00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:41.880
Um, I think JNT's doing that a bit.

312
00:24:41.940 --> 00:24:51.539
I think he's spending a lot of time at American conventions and getting a lot of adulation from people who, uh, you know, Like the Doctor Who Monster book.

313
00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:53.339
So he's pandering to fans.

314
00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:55.559
He doesn't really understand what the show should be doing.

315
00:24:55.619 --> 00:24:56.339
No.

316
00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:10.259
And I think the problem that Saywood brings to the table is a kind of cynicism where he thinks that the doctor being heroic is kind of naive and not something that belongs on modern television.

317
00:25:10.259 --> 00:25:20.460
And so he sidelines the doctor or undermines him all the way back from Pete, you know, in earth shock and resurrection of the Daleks.

318
00:25:20.460 --> 00:25:32.279
And if you compare it, Russell T. Davies, I think. is capable of really great cynicism and negativity and there's a kind of abyss behind his work.

319
00:25:32.339 --> 00:25:36.660
Look at midnight and how awful all the people are on that bus.

320
00:25:36.779 --> 00:25:38.519
United bus lines.

321
00:25:38.579 --> 00:25:38.819
Sorry.

322
00:25:38.940 --> 00:25:48.180
Well, look at Love and Monsters, where he creates a whole heap of really likeable characters and then just kills them all in this sort of brutal way.

323
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:55.920
Or if you look at, I think it's episode 6 of cucumber, which is one of the darkest things I've ever seen on television.

324
00:25:55.980 --> 00:25:58.140
Russell is capable of great cynicism.

325
00:25:58.200 --> 00:26:03.000
But he knows what the show is for and what a family audience wants.

326
00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:09.180
And he creates a positive role model in the doctor who inspires people to be better.

327
00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:12.119
He wants to make the show fun.

328
00:26:12.180 --> 00:26:20.339
He's aware that there's a family audience, so he can't rely too heavily on space corridors that needs to be grounded in reality.

329
00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:23.400
All of those are things that say would lax.

330
00:26:23.460 --> 00:26:26.099
And so his cynicism goes unchecked, I think.

331
00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:28.559
And I think it's spoiling the program at this point.

332
00:26:28.920 --> 00:26:30.900
Yeah, it needs to change.

333
00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:33.900
Like I'm not going to deny that in any way, shape, or form.

334
00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:39.420
I think I think the lack of the lack of current earth stories is a real problem.

335
00:26:39.480 --> 00:26:44.759
And I would have loved to have seen more of that, you know, with this doctor.

336
00:26:44.819 --> 00:26:48.720
It's too many space corridor spaceships, alien planets.

337
00:26:48.779 --> 00:26:53.519
And this is why I think the coat is a problem, but not in the way people think it is.

338
00:26:53.579 --> 00:26:55.440
You know, we've said with the coat.

339
00:26:55.500 --> 00:27:00.839
That, It would look weird on modern day earth and what have you.

340
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:10.380
I think maybe the production team thought that, so they're like, let's not put it on modern day earth, and you think, no, Doctor Who is about breaking stories.

341
00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:13.740
You put him on earth and everyone says to him, what's with the coat?

342
00:27:13.740 --> 00:27:14.759
and he says, what do you mean?

343
00:27:14.819 --> 00:27:16.920
That's the joke, if you like.

344
00:27:16.980 --> 00:27:23.220
And that is why this doctor is good for children because the doctor doesn't have a problem with the coat.

345
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:25.920
You know, you there, villain, you have a problem with the coat.

346
00:27:25.980 --> 00:27:26.759
Well, that's not his problem.

347
00:27:26.819 --> 00:27:27.420
It's not.

348
00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:31.079
There's nothing wrong with someone wearing something colourful.

349
00:27:31.140 --> 00:27:37.019
So, I think they kind of limit themselves unnecessarily, and if they had have had Mondeurf Day stories.

350
00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:40.200
They could have had fun with that limiting, with that limiting factor.

351
00:27:40.259 --> 00:27:45.299
I mean, you do get rid of the code in like the 2 doctors, like, you know, it's not around.

352
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:48.480
Yeah, and it looks, I think that outfit looks pretty good.

353
00:27:48.539 --> 00:27:53.220
I actually think the coat works really well on Big Finish, obviously partly because you don't have to look at it.

354
00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:57.240
But they do make jokes about the code.

355
00:27:57.299 --> 00:27:57.900
Exactly.

356
00:27:57.900 --> 00:27:59.579
It does actually play a role.

357
00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:09.720
This is where I kind of think John Nathan Turner's vision of the program is a real problem because he sees the doctor in a costume and it's so rigid and you can't change it.

358
00:28:09.779 --> 00:28:13.859
And one of the things, I really love the design of the code. right?

359
00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:19.259
And I think in season 22 for me, it, I find that it generally does work.

360
00:28:19.319 --> 00:28:21.299
By the time you get to 23, it should not be there.

361
00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:22.259
I think it's a mistake, okay?

362
00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:24.480
Bottom line is in the long term, it is a mistake.

363
00:28:24.539 --> 00:28:33.660
If there was a different producer coming in, or John had a different, like, idea of what the doctor actually is and who he actually is, we wouldn't have had that coat for 23.

364
00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:35.220
You look at Tom and John.

365
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:38.519
Yeah, they have the same basic outline, but it changes every year. here.

366
00:28:38.579 --> 00:28:41.339
It's rigidly a costume, you know?

367
00:28:41.339 --> 00:28:45.900
And not only that, they had to remake it, and they remade it exactly the same.

368
00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:52.200
You know, still have it as patchwork, but have some complementary colours on there.

369
00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:55.859
Because of course, famously it was made to entirely clash with itself.

370
00:28:55.920 --> 00:29:00.539
It just needs to be like that blue version that they've done on the internet.

371
00:29:00.539 --> 00:29:01.140
It just needs to be.

372
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:02.640
It's too unreal.

373
00:29:02.700 --> 00:29:10.740
And to me, it also goes down to the opening credits, which, you know, they put all the colour in, but it's, it's, you know, it's just a rehash of paint, right?

374
00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:15.119
Which, you know, it should have been distinctive and their own, own it, right?

375
00:29:15.180 --> 00:29:23.940
And in season 23, you do get the new theme, but it doesn't work with the current titles because you're used to the Peter Howell version.

376
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:24.599
Yeah.

377
00:29:24.660 --> 00:29:34.140
I think there is a possible justification for just rehashing Peter's visuals, which is the size of the show in America.

378
00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:40.799
So, in a way, that look of titles was becoming synonymous with Doctor Who.

379
00:29:40.859 --> 00:29:49.920
So it's like, rather than create something entirely new, we've got to keep the brand, because JNT was very conscious of branding, which is part of the reason for the costume idea as well.

380
00:29:49.980 --> 00:29:55.200
It doesn't quite come off, but I think I can see the rationale there.

381
00:29:55.259 --> 00:30:05.039
Of course, they were talking about doing a new title sequence for him for trial and didn't because of the 8000 motion control shot of the trial space station, which don't give me wrong.

382
00:30:05.160 --> 00:30:06.299
It looks great.

383
00:30:06.359 --> 00:30:11.759
But the problem is, it kind of highlights the cheapness of everything else.

384
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:18.180
And I suppose, you know, this era is a bit of an example of an era of extremes.

385
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:28.619
You know, we get a nice, fun, like fluffy romp, like mark of the Rani, and then a few weeks later, people are eating their own relatives as protein supplements, you know.

386
00:30:28.680 --> 00:30:29.519
Yeah.

387
00:30:30.180 --> 00:30:36.240
Oh, this era frustrates me so much because there is so much missed opportunity here.

388
00:30:36.359 --> 00:30:44.460
And you know, when Colin early on was giving interviews and talking about how he envisioned the character developing over 8 years.

389
00:30:44.519 --> 00:30:53.759
You can see him doing it on screen when you know that and it's, It's not just sad from a point of view of he got fired from a job he really loved.

390
00:30:53.819 --> 00:30:56.579
It's sad from a point of view of we didn't get to experience that.

391
00:30:56.700 --> 00:30:58.740
And I love Sylvester McCoy's doctor.

392
00:30:58.799 --> 00:31:07.019
When you guys earlier were talking about the fact that, you know, watching live, you came to it with Tom and John and then you came into Pete and Europe left a bit disappointed by him.

393
00:31:07.079 --> 00:31:08.460
But yeah, now Colin is the guy.

394
00:31:08.579 --> 00:31:18.180
The thing is, for me, as a kid, I had John, Tom, Pete, Colin, all in a mix, all on rotation.

395
00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:22.500
For me, it's Sylvester McCoy who was, you know, he's coming in. hes my doctor.

396
00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:38.160
Not that I was dissatisfied with any of the others, but I can get what you're saying about Colin, and especially then, if you're looking at that, and having that feeling, and then all of a sudden he disappoints you in some way, that's even more, that's even more hurtful.

397
00:31:38.940 --> 00:31:44.460
Do you believe that Colin should have been let go at the end of season 23?

398
00:31:44.519 --> 00:31:46.019
Or is that a useless question?

399
00:31:46.740 --> 00:31:49.140
I think he was the fall guy.

400
00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:51.000
I don't think it was his fault.

401
00:31:51.059 --> 00:31:55.200
And so he was just someone visible to kind of take the blame.

402
00:31:55.259 --> 00:31:56.700
He was sort of a scapegoat.

403
00:31:56.759 --> 00:32:10.140
I do think that the show I do think that his doctor was misconceived and his departure from the program gave them a chance to rethink.

404
00:32:10.200 --> 00:32:12.420
And I think they did take that chance.

405
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:20.700
I don't think they just sort of put Sylvester McCoy in a pullover and pointed him at the direction of studio one and said, go off and do your thing.

406
00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:28.319
I think that they did think about, um, what he was going to be like as the doctor.

407
00:32:28.380 --> 00:32:37.140
Um, and I think the only reason that happened isn't because it was sort of Esther McCoy, it's because Andrew Carmel came in.

408
00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:40.380
And so the real issue was the creative team.

409
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:43.619
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree with you there.

410
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:54.480
It's possible to imagine a change of creative team that goes back to the drawing board and decides what it is that works and doesn't work about Colin's doctor and makes it work.

411
00:32:54.539 --> 00:32:58.200
Um, and I think that that would have been possible.

412
00:32:59.099 --> 00:33:00.480
Yeah.

413
00:33:00.660 --> 00:33:10.619
I agree with everything that you've just said, you know, based on his performance in season 23 and addressing issues that have been discussed.

414
00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:23.279
He is the full guy, and, you know, behind the scenes, they chose not to replace the creative team when they could have, they chose to keep it off the air for 18 months.

415
00:33:23.339 --> 00:33:30.059
You know, which, It's already in the 1980s only on air for 12 weeks, 13 weeks a year.

416
00:33:30.119 --> 00:33:31.680
It's less identifiable.

417
00:33:31.740 --> 00:33:42.359
They're choosing to put it out there that it's in trouble, you know, so this is, you know, I'm talking about Jonathan Powell and Michael Gray, who don't like the show. they not supporting it.

418
00:33:42.420 --> 00:33:42.900
Yeah.

419
00:33:42.900 --> 00:33:44.279
And you can see.

420
00:33:44.759 --> 00:33:49.380
Um, I understand like, you know, at the end of this season.

421
00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:51.480
They're not supporting the show.

422
00:33:51.539 --> 00:33:52.920
If they turned around and tried to axe the show.

423
00:33:52.980 --> 00:33:55.079
People would go, well, why don't you get rid of the doctor?

424
00:33:55.140 --> 00:33:55.980
You know?

425
00:33:56.039 --> 00:34:00.180
Because if you look at the history of the show, in terms of pure ratings.

426
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:03.359
Ratings this year are down by 2.2 million, right?

427
00:34:03.420 --> 00:34:24.000
If you go back to Billy Hartnell, for example, after the Daleks Master Plan, which is around 9 million, his ratings go down into the gutter by the end of that season, but behind the scenes, they're putting in place new companions, new production team, they're thinking about the future of the show, Hartnell's going to be asked to leave, we're thinking about a new actor.

428
00:34:24.059 --> 00:34:30.000
And, you know, Patrick Chowton will come in and the ratings will go up, you know, to 7.5 to 8.5 million.

429
00:34:30.119 --> 00:34:39.179
And if you keep looking at the patterns throughout the history of the show, you know, at the end of the trout era, the ratings are down again, but there's a new production team, a new actor coming in.

430
00:34:39.239 --> 00:34:42.719
The BBC supported even after John's 1st season.

431
00:34:42.780 --> 00:34:45.840
Like at the end of that it does trail off, but then in the 2nd season, they're tweaking it.

432
00:34:45.900 --> 00:34:48.480
They're putting it in a later time slot, it's suddenly in the top 20.

433
00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:51.300
They're supporting it behind the scenes.

434
00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:53.760
And then the 70s, well, it's a foregone conclusion.

435
00:34:53.820 --> 00:35:05.699
And then when it's perceived that the production values are not good like in season 17, they've got a new team coming in or and although Tom's ratings in his last season are a disaster.

436
00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:11.400
He's leaving this, a new doctor coming in, the ratings go back up from 5000000 to 9 to 10 million. like there's all these patterns.

437
00:35:11.519 --> 00:35:18.119
So on the surface of things, certainly, you could say, Jonathan Power easily says, well, you know, we brought it back.

438
00:35:18.179 --> 00:35:25.500
It's got less ratings, you know, but they've done nothing behind the scenes to really support the show, like as far as I'm concerned.

439
00:35:25.559 --> 00:35:32.579
And so no one is going to tune back into the show next year if they discover that we have a new script, their data. because no one can see that.

440
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:36.659
But if you can Colin and replace him.

441
00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:40.380
That's a view a visible change in the program.

442
00:35:40.440 --> 00:35:40.980
Yeah.

443
00:35:40.980 --> 00:35:42.900
And so maybe...

444
00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:46.679
Well, I mean, as I said, after every new doctor, you get a spike of interest.

445
00:35:46.739 --> 00:35:50.519
Even Colin, you know, the 8.900000 at the beginning of season 22.

446
00:35:50.699 --> 00:35:53.460
Like people have realised that there's a new doctor for one week.

447
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:55.199
There is a visible spike.

448
00:35:55.260 --> 00:36:03.480
But in in axiom and bringing in somebody new, they're obviously undermining John Nathan Turner even more.

449
00:36:03.539 --> 00:36:05.880
And the other thing they do.

450
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:08.699
Is they move the show against Coronation Street.

451
00:36:08.760 --> 00:36:11.400
Yeah. which is getting 25 to 30000000 viewers.

452
00:36:11.460 --> 00:36:13.500
The opposition's only getting 3 to 4.

453
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:15.960
So what's the notice operandi?

454
00:36:16.019 --> 00:36:18.000
New doctor comes in. might get 5 million.

455
00:36:18.059 --> 00:36:22.739
If it drops down to four, That's lower than this season, right?

456
00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:24.000
Bye bye.

457
00:36:24.059 --> 00:36:25.500
We've tried to rescue it with a new doctor.

458
00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:28.980
But of course, as I mentioned, in our trial of a time lord.

459
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:37.860
Every new story in the Sylvester McCoy era gets like, you know, 5.one, then 5.2 and 5.3 and 5.5 at the beginning of every story.

460
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:40.380
There is a visible new story.

461
00:36:40.440 --> 00:36:46.559
And because you can then next year, compare Doctor Who to other shows in that slot. getting a 1000000 viewers more.

462
00:36:46.619 --> 00:36:47.159
Yeah.

463
00:36:47.159 --> 00:36:58.739
Anecdotally, I know quite a few people who say that at the end of twin dilemma or after one of Attack of the Cybermen, they stopped watching Doctor Who, they didn't like the new doctor.

464
00:36:58.860 --> 00:37:13.139
But, The ratings, you know, you had that spike at the beginning of 22, and then they settle in the high 6s, low 7s, which isn't that bad compared to Davison, who was getting high 7s, low 8s.

465
00:37:14.099 --> 00:37:21.239
When the show is cancelled slash put on hiatus, because it was cancelled 1st and then they backpedalled.

466
00:37:21.300 --> 00:37:24.480
Why did they backpedal because of massive fan reaction?

467
00:37:24.599 --> 00:37:41.460
There are individuals and there are a lot of individuals who stopped watching because they didn't like Colin Baker, but the important thing is, that was not the majority of the audience, which is the picture we are painted now, when we discuss the hiatus.

468
00:37:41.519 --> 00:37:47.039
And when we discussed the cancellation, there's this fan wisdom that everyone hated Colin Baker.

469
00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:58.679
And it's like, okay, no, if you consider the average audience of the last Davidson season to the average audience of the 1st Colin Baker season, 18th of the audience hate a Colin Baker, just over 10%.

470
00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:12.539
And that's being generous, you know, there might just be people who couldn't tune in for whatever reason, but if we assume that everyone who stopped watching stopped watching because of Colin Baker, That's what, 12.5% of the audience didn't like him.

471
00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:16.739
It's significant, but it's not disastrous, and the ratings are still good.

472
00:38:17.099 --> 00:38:20.219
Ratings generally go down anyway too.

473
00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:27.719
You have to control for the fact that, you know, over the years, there's more kinds of media and things like that.

474
00:38:27.780 --> 00:38:28.679
Yeah, absolutely.

475
00:38:28.739 --> 00:38:32.159
And, you know, he had stiff competition with with the A team.

476
00:38:32.219 --> 00:38:34.260
You know, it was like Buck Rogers back in season 18.

477
00:38:34.679 --> 00:38:38.340
Or Batman or Batman at the controls.

478
00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:43.739
Um, you fast forward 2 years to where they fire Colin to get someone else in.

479
00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:48.179
And I puzzled for years over that.

480
00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:49.679
It's like, you know what?

481
00:38:49.739 --> 00:38:51.059
They did everything you asked.

482
00:38:51.179 --> 00:38:53.940
The ratings while lower.

483
00:38:54.059 --> 00:38:55.440
Were steady.

484
00:38:55.500 --> 00:38:58.380
There was good audience appreciation figures.

485
00:38:58.440 --> 00:38:59.639
For the trial.

486
00:38:59.699 --> 00:39:02.579
There were pretty decent reviews for it.

487
00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:05.579
Why change?

488
00:39:05.940 --> 00:39:09.599
The star without changing the producer.

489
00:39:09.900 --> 00:39:12.539
Why not just cancel the show?

490
00:39:12.900 --> 00:39:19.860
And I think the whole reason we get Solister McCoy, it's not because the BBC suddenly care about the show.

491
00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:24.000
It's not because the BBC want people tuning in because they put it up against Coronation Street.

492
00:39:24.059 --> 00:39:30.900
It's so, in their minds, they're like, it will continue to go down, the ratings will continue to go down.

493
00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:34.079
We will be able to justify cancelling it without getting a massive backlash again.

494
00:39:34.139 --> 00:39:34.739
Yes.

495
00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:39.480
It's become a point scoring exercise now, from the people on the top floor.

496
00:39:39.539 --> 00:39:41.159
And the last thing they expect to happen.

497
00:39:41.340 --> 00:39:51.300
Is this script editor to come in, and to get the job by saying, in the interview, when asked the question, what do you want to do with Doctor Who?

498
00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:54.719
Andrew Cartmel responds with, I want to bring down the government.

499
00:39:54.780 --> 00:39:57.960
They're not expecting. not expecting anyone to care about the show.

500
00:39:58.019 --> 00:39:58.739
Yeah.

501
00:39:58.739 --> 00:40:08.579
They're not expecting anyone who works on it to care about it because they've just seen for 2 years that the 2 people in charge are making it because it's because it's still being made.

502
00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:09.119
And you know what?

503
00:40:09.179 --> 00:40:09.780
I am grateful.

504
00:40:09.780 --> 00:40:13.980
That JNT and Eric Saywood were still making Doctor Who for those 2 years.

505
00:40:14.039 --> 00:40:15.480
I still enjoy it.

506
00:40:15.900 --> 00:40:19.980
But no one at the BBC really understands.

507
00:40:19.980 --> 00:40:23.639
What Doctor Who is meant to be as you keep saying, Nathan.

508
00:40:23.699 --> 00:40:30.840
They just view it as this cash cow, and in 3 years, they're going to figure out they can make just as much money from it without spending anything on it.

509
00:40:30.900 --> 00:40:38.519
It's funny, isn't it, that when they do finally cancel it after season 26, that they don't cancel it.

510
00:40:38.579 --> 00:40:40.920
There's no there's just no announcement.

511
00:40:40.980 --> 00:40:55.500
Yeah, a new season doesn't come back and we have a couple of years where it's at a time where the BBC is increasingly outsourcing and doing much less in-house, and so there would be all these rumours about independent production teams taking it up and stuff.

512
00:40:55.619 --> 00:41:02.460
And eventually that bubbles along for so long that, you know, eventually we realise it's not coming back, but there's never the outcry.

513
00:41:02.460 --> 00:41:09.539
Um, that we had, you know, at the at the cancellation at the end of season 22.

514
00:41:09.659 --> 00:41:29.820
I think it's, it's ironic that, you know, at the end of 24, Michael Gray is gone, to show, despite being put in a death slot and visibly with, you know, changing the star of it, it actually outperforms it and they, you know, they're left with, well, if we cancel it now, people will be going, but it's doing, it's doing good in this slot, you know?

515
00:41:29.880 --> 00:41:36.179
And then you've got season 25, you've got the whole 25 year thing that you can use as publicity and that sort of thing.

516
00:41:36.239 --> 00:41:42.059
So throughout all of these events that have happened over the last 2 years, et cetera.

517
00:41:43.079 --> 00:41:48.840
Funnily enough, the show keeps soldiering on to, it's going to get 25 years, you know?

518
00:41:48.900 --> 00:41:49.440
Yeah.

519
00:41:49.500 --> 00:41:52.320
Oh, that's been really quite intense.

520
00:41:52.380 --> 00:41:55.800
I think we need to lighten things up with the sub, Mario, void. we do that now?

521
00:41:55.860 --> 00:41:56.699
think so.

522
00:41:56.760 --> 00:42:00.420
All right, so I'm going to go with Nathan.

523
00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:02.219
Here's your snog, Mario Void.

524
00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:03.659
Catomara.

525
00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:06.599
Jacqueline Pierce.

526
00:42:07.500 --> 00:42:09.420
Eleanor Braun.

527
00:42:09.480 --> 00:42:09.840
Yes.

528
00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:11.519
Okay, the usual stog Mary boy.

529
00:42:11.579 --> 00:42:12.300
Oh my god.

530
00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:14.519
I don't want to avoid any one of those.

531
00:42:15.059 --> 00:42:17.099
Who would I avoid?

532
00:42:17.219 --> 00:42:23.099
I think I would have to avoid Kate O'Mara because I'm allergic to cats.

533
00:42:23.940 --> 00:42:30.539
And she has a little she had a little cat sanctuary or something like that, didn't she?

534
00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:32.579
Or is that just been absolutely fabulous?

535
00:42:32.639 --> 00:42:33.840
Cat's on crack.

536
00:42:33.900 --> 00:42:34.980
Yeah, cats on crack.

537
00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:35.400
Yeah.

538
00:42:35.460 --> 00:42:45.840
So I'd have to avoid her, but it would be, I'd feel bad about that because she is fabulous, particularly next year when she's dressed as Bonnie Langford, which I just absolutely adore.

539
00:42:45.900 --> 00:42:58.380
Um, uh, so Jacqueline Pierce has been a lifelong love of mine, uh, she's the only person that I've ever cosplayed as uh, at a convention.

540
00:42:58.440 --> 00:43:04.800
I dressed as president and supreme commander of the Terran Federation Serverland.

541
00:43:04.920 --> 00:43:16.139
Um, So I think I'd have to marry her so that I could get sort of, you know, access to sort of fashion tips and and all of that sort of thing.

542
00:43:16.199 --> 00:43:17.820
Eleanor Braun.

543
00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:24.360
I can't remember who I said my favourite guest star of the season is, but I'm going to suddenly say that it's her.

544
00:43:24.420 --> 00:43:32.519
So I think, uh, you know, a torrid 15 minutes of passion with uh, Eleanor Braun or something that I wouldn't regret, uh, so uh, that's my answer.

545
00:43:32.579 --> 00:43:33.599
Excellent.

546
00:43:33.659 --> 00:43:34.800
Brendan.

547
00:43:34.860 --> 00:43:37.079
I've been really horrible to you today.

548
00:43:37.139 --> 00:43:37.980
This is terrible.

549
00:43:38.039 --> 00:43:39.179
Okay.

550
00:43:39.239 --> 00:43:40.500
Paul Darrow.

551
00:43:40.679 --> 00:43:42.780
Brian Blessed.

552
00:43:43.559 --> 00:43:45.840
And Martin Jarvis.

553
00:43:45.900 --> 00:43:48.239
Oh, actually, that's not too bad at all.

554
00:43:48.300 --> 00:43:54.480
Look, I think I'd have to avoid Paul Darrow because we'd just try to act to each other and I don't need the competition.

555
00:43:57.539 --> 00:44:00.300
I think I'd snog Brian Blessed.

556
00:44:00.360 --> 00:44:09.960
Because seriously, if you look at Brian Blessed in the 60s in the Avengers, and even in Mind War, Brian Blessed's pretty hot, but I don't think I could live with all that noise.

557
00:44:10.260 --> 00:44:15.900
So, you know, yeah, Toro affair with Brian Blessett and Mary Martin Jarvis, he's lovely.

558
00:44:15.960 --> 00:44:18.420
He's married to Rosalind Dares, you know.

559
00:44:18.480 --> 00:44:20.280
They both have exquisite tastes.

560
00:44:20.340 --> 00:44:24.360
So yeah, I think I'd have to marry my Martin Jarvis in a in like a 3 way marriage thing.

561
00:44:24.420 --> 00:44:25.860
I have no desire to usurper.

562
00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:29.280
Uh, Snogg, Brian Blessed, Mary Martin, Jarvis avoid Paul Darrow.

563
00:44:29.340 --> 00:44:29.880
Right.

564
00:44:29.880 --> 00:44:30.539
Excellent.

565
00:44:30.599 --> 00:44:32.820
Well, here's my snog barrier void.

566
00:44:32.880 --> 00:44:34.260
Yes, I've skewed this people.

567
00:44:34.320 --> 00:44:36.239
Jason Connery.

568
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:38.099
Luke?

569
00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:39.239
Gary Katie.

570
00:44:39.300 --> 00:44:40.139
Dibber.

571
00:44:41.219 --> 00:44:43.199
Oh, fire.

572
00:44:43.260 --> 00:44:45.360
So I'm avoiding Jason Connery.

573
00:44:45.420 --> 00:44:47.699
Because he's just terribly wooden.

574
00:44:47.760 --> 00:44:49.800
I'm snogging Luke.

575
00:44:49.860 --> 00:44:51.780
Yep, before the tree episode.

576
00:44:51.840 --> 00:44:53.639
When I'm marrying Dipper.

577
00:44:54.300 --> 00:44:56.400
That's a man.

578
00:44:56.400 --> 00:44:58.079
Enough said, and he's funny.

579
00:44:58.679 --> 00:45:01.619
I think I just ended that slightly.

580
00:45:01.679 --> 00:45:11.219
I think I, um, I think I'd snog Deborah and marry Luke just because, um, you know, Luke, with, without the whole tree episode.

581
00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:13.440
So let's just write that out of Canon.

582
00:45:13.500 --> 00:45:15.719
But also, you know, Dibba being a convicted criminal.

583
00:45:15.780 --> 00:45:23.460
No, I just want kind of 15 minutes and a cup with him rather than, you know, be looking over my shoulder every day of married life.

584
00:45:23.519 --> 00:45:26.880
You could have like lovely picnics under Luke. couldn't you?

585
00:45:26.940 --> 00:45:27.960
Once he turned into a tree.

586
00:45:28.019 --> 00:45:30.480
You know, I think that would be all right.

587
00:45:30.539 --> 00:45:34.199
Has he provide you with oxygen and shade?

588
00:45:34.260 --> 00:45:36.840
Has anyone else read the book, sister Kate?

589
00:45:36.900 --> 00:45:39.480
There's a scene in that involving a tree.

590
00:45:39.539 --> 00:45:40.380
Anyway, moving on.

591
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:49.739
So we talk about top 3 stories and the opposite, the least favourite.

592
00:45:49.739 --> 00:45:50.880
Three stories.

593
00:45:50.940 --> 00:45:56.460
So let's go with the least favourite, your bottom 3 if you have to choose.

594
00:45:57.000 --> 00:45:59.579
I can always start if you'd like me to.

595
00:45:59.639 --> 00:46:00.539
Yeah, go on.

596
00:46:00.659 --> 00:46:02.340
Timelash?

597
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:04.739
Twin dilemma.

598
00:46:04.980 --> 00:46:07.260
And trial of a Time Lord.

599
00:46:08.820 --> 00:46:10.980
All right, that's pretty good.

600
00:46:11.039 --> 00:46:12.840
Mine would be pretty similar.

601
00:46:12.900 --> 00:46:14.639
I don't think time lash is very good.

602
00:46:14.699 --> 00:46:19.019
I hate twin dilemma. one of my very bottom stories.

603
00:46:19.079 --> 00:46:22.139
You had it top of your bottom 10, I think, at one point, Todd.

604
00:46:22.199 --> 00:46:23.639
Yeah, it's still there.

605
00:46:23.699 --> 00:46:24.179
Yeah.

606
00:46:24.239 --> 00:46:25.860
So I think Toon Dilemma's terrible.

607
00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:32.159
I think timelashes sort of, you know, it's got some things going for it, but it's sort of basically incompetent.

608
00:46:33.780 --> 00:46:45.000
I think that vengeance on Varos is massively overrated, but um, it's not bad enough for me to want to put it in the bottom three.

609
00:46:45.059 --> 00:46:51.780
I'm sorry, I'm thinking maybe Attack of the Cybermen comes in as one of my bottom three.

610
00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:54.239
Brendan.

611
00:46:54.300 --> 00:46:56.880
The twin dilemma for reasons we've already discussed.

612
00:46:57.000 --> 00:47:07.860
The 2 doctors, as I said at the time, I just think it's far too long and I think losing the New Orleans stuff without something as good to replace it in the Spain stuff just means, you know, we're running around.

613
00:47:07.920 --> 00:47:14.519
Well, they're still very pretty part of Severe, but as some friend of the podcast, Simon Moore has told us.

614
00:47:14.579 --> 00:47:16.139
It's not even the pretty bit of Seville.

615
00:47:16.199 --> 00:47:21.239
And then for my 3rd slot, look, it's between time lash and mind warp.

616
00:47:21.659 --> 00:47:26.639
And okay, so the case for time lash is it's pretty boring.

617
00:47:26.699 --> 00:47:34.320
It's badly executed, the case for mind warp is, it's got a horrible ending, but the thing is mind warp is still very well directed.

618
00:47:34.380 --> 00:47:37.559
It's well written and it's well performed, whereas Timelash has Vina.

619
00:47:37.619 --> 00:47:43.559
Um, so I think it has to be time lash, even though out of those three.

620
00:47:43.619 --> 00:47:54.960
I'm very happy to rewatch Time Lash and still very much enjoy it, whereas 2 doctors, I derive little enjoyment from and the twin dilemma, I derive almost no enjoyment from.

621
00:47:55.019 --> 00:48:00.480
So, yeah, twin dilemma, the 2 doctors, and time lash.

622
00:48:00.539 --> 00:48:01.500
All right.

623
00:48:01.559 --> 00:48:05.820
So let's go with the other end of the spectrum, the 3 that you enjoy the most.

624
00:48:06.300 --> 00:48:11.940
So I would say the 2 doctors is the best Colin Baker story.

625
00:48:12.420 --> 00:48:17.159
Because, you know, it's Bob Holmes and it's, I actually quite like the length.

626
00:48:17.219 --> 00:48:20.699
It's got some good location work and it has Jacqueline Pierce in it.

627
00:48:20.760 --> 00:48:25.860
I would say, Revelation of the Daleks come second.

628
00:48:25.920 --> 00:48:28.980
I think it's well-directed and it's say it's best script.

629
00:48:29.039 --> 00:48:33.900
It's riffing on something, uh, that's pretty good and it has Eleanor Braun in it.

630
00:48:33.960 --> 00:48:34.980
Yes, okay.

631
00:48:34.980 --> 00:48:36.599
Um, and...

632
00:48:36.599 --> 00:48:41.639
I really struggled to find a 3rd one.

633
00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:44.039
Possibly.

634
00:48:47.219 --> 00:48:48.179
Hmm.

635
00:48:49.079 --> 00:48:53.940
I can see why people like.

636
00:48:55.619 --> 00:48:59.820
I'm going to say, I'm going to say terror of the fur points.

637
00:48:59.820 --> 00:49:09.179
Because I don't think it's very good, but I think it is kind of enjoyable and it's straightforwardly doing something.

638
00:49:09.239 --> 00:49:19.679
And, you know, as we said in, uh, Mark of the Rani, uh, it gets the doctor to be doctor-ish and to kind of solve the problem in an ingenious way and things.

639
00:49:19.739 --> 00:49:22.920
It's marred by the fact of the trial, obviously.

640
00:49:22.980 --> 00:49:26.039
And it's just fun and camp and silly as well, I think.

641
00:49:26.099 --> 00:49:28.019
And it has Janet in it.

642
00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:29.760
Good.

643
00:49:30.059 --> 00:49:31.440
Right.

644
00:49:31.500 --> 00:49:33.900
My top three, Mark of the Rani.

645
00:49:33.960 --> 00:49:37.199
Because there's a lightness of touch to it.

646
00:49:37.260 --> 00:49:38.460
Cato Mar is great.

647
00:49:38.699 --> 00:49:47.579
Despite the fact that Anthony only gets the thing to do that I think is the main problem with the master and he's just there to kill the doctor, he puts in a very good performance as well.

648
00:49:47.639 --> 00:49:53.400
Colin and Nicola are a great guest caster, all good, much like terror the vervoids, it's pretty clear what it's doing.

649
00:49:53.460 --> 00:49:55.679
Yeah, it's not convoluted at all.

650
00:49:55.739 --> 00:49:58.199
I would then say attack of the cybermen.

651
00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:11.039
I think, again, that despite all the continuity and the cyberman's plan, it's pretty straightforward, the info dumps, when they do come over with quickly, they're light and they tell you exactly what you need to know.

652
00:50:11.099 --> 00:50:15.059
There's some good characterisation of the cryons.

653
00:50:15.119 --> 00:50:16.980
They're not just the bliz-bloss monsters.

654
00:50:17.039 --> 00:50:25.980
We get a bit of more complex characterisation with Lytton and the, you know, the idea that a villain isn't necessarily just someone who's evil.

655
00:50:26.039 --> 00:50:31.079
I also would love the bit at the end where the doctor says, oh, you know, maybe I need to change.

656
00:50:31.199 --> 00:50:35.039
It's a pity that was never really acted upon overtly.

657
00:50:35.159 --> 00:50:41.099
And of course, I then have to say terror of the vervoids, you know, I have to agree with you, Nathan.

658
00:50:41.159 --> 00:50:42.719
It's a simple idea.

659
00:50:42.780 --> 00:50:43.619
It's done well. well.

660
00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:45.900
It's got a great guest cast.

661
00:50:45.960 --> 00:50:48.000
The trial scenes.

662
00:50:49.079 --> 00:50:52.500
But thankfully they don't go on too long and we just get back to the plot.

663
00:50:52.500 --> 00:51:00.539
Bonnie Langford is a breath of fresh air and we get a great new relationship between her as Mel and Colin as the doctor.

664
00:51:00.599 --> 00:51:04.139
It makes you feel bright for the future of the show.

665
00:51:04.199 --> 00:51:08.639
You know, if you didn't know that we were only going to see them together for 6 episodes.

666
00:51:08.760 --> 00:51:10.860
You go, yeah, I can watch these 2 for a long time.

667
00:51:10.920 --> 00:51:13.800
Uh, yeah, so, what was that?

668
00:51:13.860 --> 00:51:17.340
That was Mark the Rani, Attack of the Cybermen and Tear of the Vivoids.

669
00:51:17.400 --> 00:51:21.119
All right, my top 3 are in no particular order.

670
00:51:21.179 --> 00:51:28.860
Attack of the Sidemen, which I ideally love, the 2 doctors, which I think is super Revelation, the Daleks, which I just thoroughly enjoy.

671
00:51:28.920 --> 00:51:37.320
And if I could edit out all the trial scenes from Mysterious Planet, it would be in contention, but it's not so beautiful.

672
00:51:37.380 --> 00:51:37.920
It's not.

673
00:51:38.579 --> 00:51:39.960
Yeah.

674
00:51:40.019 --> 00:51:40.920
So there you go.

675
00:51:40.980 --> 00:51:49.980
In terms of guest stars or villains or monsters, whom has been your favourite in this particular here of the show.

676
00:51:50.039 --> 00:51:54.300
Nathan, I'm looking at you and you're going to say, Servian, Jacqueline Pierce, yes?

677
00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:58.980
No, I, I, you know, I think she's pretty good, but she's doing her usual thing.

678
00:51:59.039 --> 00:52:01.800
I do think Eleanor Braun is really terrific.

679
00:52:01.860 --> 00:52:04.440
So I guess it's her.

680
00:52:04.500 --> 00:52:11.519
I think Martin Jarvis is good, but maybe not for the reasons that people think.

681
00:52:11.519 --> 00:52:15.300
I quite like Michael Jason as the valleyard.

682
00:52:15.360 --> 00:52:16.380
He does a good job.

683
00:52:16.500 --> 00:52:20.280
Even though he kind of turns into a sort of moustache twirling villain at the end.

684
00:52:20.340 --> 00:52:24.480
As for villains, I think that Sill is really good.

685
00:52:24.539 --> 00:52:30.960
I think he's by far the best thing in both of the stories that he's in.

686
00:52:31.500 --> 00:52:34.079
I'm pretty much agreeing with you.

687
00:52:34.139 --> 00:52:35.639
All of those.

688
00:52:35.699 --> 00:52:40.559
I think you only get Sil as a sort of new villain in the Colin Baker era.

689
00:52:40.679 --> 00:52:42.000
I guess you could count Drathro.

690
00:52:42.059 --> 00:52:43.019
And the Rani.

691
00:52:43.079 --> 00:52:44.340
Oh, the Rani?

692
00:52:44.400 --> 00:52:45.059
No, yeah, yeah, yeah.

693
00:52:45.119 --> 00:52:45.719
K Tamara.

694
00:52:45.780 --> 00:52:49.260
Well, I prefer this version of the Rani. and I think it's a better performance.

695
00:52:49.320 --> 00:52:52.500
So, yeah, so definitely Cademara, Serani, I think it's fantastic.

696
00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:53.760
Eleanor Braun's great.

697
00:52:53.820 --> 00:52:55.440
I like Jacqueline Pierce.

698
00:52:55.500 --> 00:52:57.659
I know it's a shtick, but I think it's really wonderful.

699
00:52:57.719 --> 00:52:59.039
Joan Sims.

700
00:52:59.099 --> 00:53:00.420
I just love as Katrika.

701
00:53:00.480 --> 00:53:03.420
One of my reasons for really loving that story.

702
00:53:03.480 --> 00:53:06.300
You've pinpointed Michael, Jason.

703
00:53:06.360 --> 00:53:11.340
I think Linda Bellium brings a lot of empathy to that particular thankless task of a role.

704
00:53:11.400 --> 00:53:14.039
Um, And a hat.

705
00:53:14.159 --> 00:53:15.300
A lovely hat.

706
00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:26.460
I can't go past Edgeworth. back in the twin dilemma because I think it's a lovely performance, um, in spite of everything else.

707
00:53:27.059 --> 00:53:40.320
Every story, with one exception, has really strong lead guest cast, and that one exception, of course, is um, Jeanette Crowley, as Vina.

708
00:53:40.380 --> 00:53:42.719
She's just bloody awful.

709
00:53:42.780 --> 00:53:47.519
Um, the, the actress who plays cats is much better.

710
00:53:47.579 --> 00:53:55.139
She needs to work on her projection a bit, but she's sympathetic and believable in that role.

711
00:53:55.199 --> 00:54:03.599
So I mean, I wouldn't say she's my favourite of era, but I do want to point that out because I think she gets overshadowed a bit by how rubbish Vina is.

712
00:54:03.659 --> 00:54:09.960
Yeah, we've got, Morris Denim giving a great performance in a really sub-parscript.

713
00:54:10.079 --> 00:54:13.679
We've got Maurice Colburn and Brian Glover.

714
00:54:13.739 --> 00:54:15.119
Oh, yeah.

715
00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:16.559
In Attack of the Sidement?

716
00:54:16.619 --> 00:54:17.820
Getting a bit rough, is it?

717
00:54:17.880 --> 00:54:18.480
Yeah.

718
00:54:18.480 --> 00:54:24.300
We've got the Cryons, especially Flast, who's locked up with the doctor just flirting with the outrageously.

719
00:54:24.360 --> 00:54:34.380
And, you know, Doctor Who doesn't often show that demonstrations of sexuality or sensuality, let alone from an alien character.

720
00:54:34.500 --> 00:54:37.619
And it's just a nice little character moment.

721
00:54:38.219 --> 00:54:41.340
Martin Jarvis, of course, Nabil Shabin.

722
00:54:41.400 --> 00:54:55.739
If I had to pick just one person, as much as I love K Tomara, I would pick Nabil Shabin because not only does he create an interesting character whom you like despite the fact he's a horrible person.

723
00:54:56.460 --> 00:55:23.039
When he comes back, he builds on that and everything you loved about him the 1st time is back even more the 2nd time with even more humour, like that line we singled out of, I only wish you'd found a more attractive body, which is a great falling action moment because we've had this horrible thing we know Perry's dead and suddenly we cut to this joke and for once because this era does that quite a bit.

724
00:55:23.099 --> 00:55:25.679
It'll try to undercut something horrible with joke.

725
00:55:25.739 --> 00:55:29.460
I think this is the only time it really, really strongly works.

726
00:55:29.519 --> 00:55:39.539
Of course, you've got Cato Mara, and you've got the cast playing George Stevenson, Lord Ravensworth, you've got Luke played by Gary Katie, who are all good in Mark of the Rani.

727
00:55:39.659 --> 00:55:53.400
The guest cast are all brilliant in the 2 doctors, even the 2 sontarians, their makeup, their masks doesn't do them justice, but that whole bit about the loneliness of command, and I think I've made a tactical error and all that.

728
00:55:53.460 --> 00:55:53.940
That's all great.

729
00:55:54.000 --> 00:55:55.320
And Astari.

730
00:55:55.380 --> 00:55:56.039
I forgot about him.

731
00:55:56.099 --> 00:55:57.059
Yeah, he's really good.

732
00:55:57.119 --> 00:55:59.639
Actually, no one's mentioned Herbert as well.

733
00:55:59.699 --> 00:56:01.320
Oh, I think it's a great performance.

734
00:56:01.380 --> 00:56:01.800
Yeah.

735
00:56:01.920 --> 00:56:05.099
Yeah, Herbert and Robert Ashby is the Borad.

736
00:56:05.159 --> 00:56:06.360
Really great voice.

737
00:56:06.539 --> 00:56:09.239
Paul Darrow is certainly memorable.

738
00:56:09.300 --> 00:56:11.159
I like Vina.

739
00:56:11.219 --> 00:56:13.619
I'm just going to say that people...

740
00:56:13.619 --> 00:56:14.280
Is she is?

741
00:56:14.340 --> 00:56:15.239
I really do like her.

742
00:56:15.360 --> 00:56:21.360
I think she found Katerina's stash of Xanax somewhere in the dressing room and that accounts for it.

743
00:56:21.420 --> 00:56:25.079
Let's not forget about the lovely Janet in...

744
00:56:25.079 --> 00:56:26.159
Yeah, Land of Palfrey.

745
00:56:26.219 --> 00:56:26.940
She's really great.

746
00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:30.239
All of the guest cast in Revelation are good.

747
00:56:30.300 --> 00:56:36.179
You know, and we discussed at the time, some people don't like Jenny Thomasson, but we all love her and we just...

748
00:56:36.239 --> 00:56:40.380
We totally get the aggression and the repression that's going on with that character.

749
00:56:40.500 --> 00:56:41.699
And Clive Swift.

750
00:56:41.760 --> 00:56:42.719
Like, I forgot. about him too.

751
00:56:42.780 --> 00:56:46.920
There's actually a lot of really good guest cast in here.

752
00:56:46.980 --> 00:56:50.880
And oh, I forgot to mention a few weeks ago when we were doing the ultimate foe, of course.

753
00:56:50.940 --> 00:56:56.880
Jeffrey Hughes turns up in the 2nd of 3 guest spots by keeping up appearances actors.

754
00:56:56.880 --> 00:57:01.139
Yeah, of an annual tradition.

755
00:57:01.199 --> 00:57:04.800
Yep, Michael Jason, Linda Bellingham, uh, on a Blackman.

756
00:57:04.860 --> 00:57:10.619
Uh, Joan Sims, Tom Chadbon, Roger Breeley, Patrick Reicart.

757
00:57:12.239 --> 00:57:19.079
We have possibly, the best array of guest cast actors.

758
00:57:20.579 --> 00:57:24.239
Consistently appearing in Doctor Who.

759
00:57:24.300 --> 00:57:27.239
It's kind of J and T's strength, isn't it?

760
00:57:27.300 --> 00:57:30.480
Like getting big names to agree to appear on the program.

761
00:57:30.539 --> 00:57:33.900
We didn't go through this list with Pete, did we?

762
00:57:33.960 --> 00:57:39.420
No, there are great guest characters and big names, I think, in pizza era.

763
00:57:39.480 --> 00:57:41.099
But not necessarily in every story.

764
00:57:41.159 --> 00:57:50.760
And unlike Pete's era, we don't really have a Beryl Reed style example here where we go, oh no, that's woefully miscast, even though none of us think they're all wolves.

765
00:57:50.820 --> 00:57:51.119
Okay.

766
00:57:51.179 --> 00:57:54.300
Even though only Todd thinks, Beryl Reed, no, no, no.

767
00:57:54.360 --> 00:57:58.679
No, I'm talking about the father and his cousin in between dilemma.

768
00:57:58.739 --> 00:57:59.340
Oh, yeah.

769
00:57:59.340 --> 00:58:00.659
No, I won't talk for obeying it.

770
00:58:00.659 --> 00:58:03.300
And...

771
00:58:03.360 --> 00:58:05.639
Oh, yeah, but they're not big names. nobody cares about them.

772
00:58:05.699 --> 00:58:06.780
Yes, it's correct.

773
00:58:06.840 --> 00:58:07.260
That is correct.

774
00:58:07.320 --> 00:58:10.679
But yet, they've they've really gone to town.

775
00:58:10.739 --> 00:58:20.699
It's kind of weird because we've talked about how, in a way, they didn't care about, they cared about making a show. with big names that they could put on the cover of the radio times.

776
00:58:20.760 --> 00:58:23.280
And I don't think Colin even got a radio times covered at any point.

777
00:58:24.059 --> 00:58:27.000
But they care enough to get these big names in.

778
00:58:27.059 --> 00:58:32.880
And contrary to expectations. like we discussed with Joan Sims, Joan Sims isn't playing it like a carry-on.

779
00:58:32.940 --> 00:58:38.400
Joan Sims is playing it like, no, I am a 70 year old leader of a tribe, and I have seen some stuff go down.

780
00:58:38.460 --> 00:58:40.440
I'm not an idiot.

781
00:58:40.500 --> 00:58:48.119
I may be uneducated, but I'm not an idiot, and she plays it seriously, and as a result, you believe in that world.

782
00:58:48.539 --> 00:58:53.099
I mean, it's an era where the right hand does not know what the left is doing.

783
00:58:53.820 --> 00:58:57.119
But yet, such strong guest cast.

784
00:58:57.179 --> 00:59:00.840
My prime pick is Nabil Shabin, because he appears twice.

785
00:59:01.139 --> 00:59:27.900
And Every time you see him, and I mean from scene to scene, he just builds and I mean, perhaps it is the kind of dedication to performance that can only come from someone who has experienced hardship and discrimination in his chosen profession of wanting to be an actor and having difficulty finding roles because people don't want to hire a disabled actor.

786
00:59:28.019 --> 00:59:36.780
And On the one hand, disabled advocates may look at that performance and go, oh, they've customers a villain.

787
00:59:36.840 --> 00:59:47.340
Whereas his attitude was to create a character and to kind of go, right, if I need to be the big scary monster, I'm going to be the scariest monster.

788
00:59:47.400 --> 00:59:50.760
I'm going to turn something like laughing into something horrible.

789
00:59:50.820 --> 00:59:55.679
And I just hear other stories about Nabil Shabin acting in other productions.

790
00:59:55.739 --> 00:59:56.340
He was in.

791
00:59:56.400 --> 01:00:06.420
He was in an audio visual as one of Guy Fawkes gang in the gun, in the gun, powder plot, and there's a scene where he's either being tortured or he's torturing someone.

792
01:00:06.539 --> 01:00:09.059
And he said to them, how are we going to achieve this?

793
01:00:09.119 --> 01:00:16.199
And they say, oh, well, Nabil, you know, we, um, we can do post-production now and we can add sound effects on later.

794
01:00:16.260 --> 01:00:17.519
And he said, well, what does it sound like?

795
01:00:17.579 --> 01:00:20.099
They said, oh, it sounds like metal clanging together and rubbing together.

796
01:00:20.159 --> 01:00:29.519
And when it came time to record the scene, he's recording it in his wheelchair, he started ripping bits off his wheelchair and clanging them together to make the torture implements.

797
01:00:29.519 --> 01:00:31.500
And they went, that's perfect.

798
01:00:31.559 --> 01:00:32.699
We'll keep that in.

799
01:00:32.760 --> 01:00:35.699
That's the kind of actor Nabil Shabin is.

800
01:00:35.760 --> 01:00:46.199
And as I say, I wonder if that kind of ingenuity and that kind of interiority and characterisation comes from the fact that he would have been told no so many times.

801
01:00:46.260 --> 01:00:47.159
So when he gets a role.

802
01:00:47.219 --> 01:00:50.280
He says, I'm going to show you what kind of actor I am.

803
01:00:50.340 --> 01:00:53.460
For me, it goes beyond just respecting that he plays his role.

804
01:00:53.519 --> 01:00:56.039
It's respecting his respect.

805
01:00:56.280 --> 01:00:58.559
For what he's doing.

806
01:00:59.760 --> 01:01:09.420
You touched on Big finish audios in in that, what you've just said, and we've discussed that in a previous our previous podcast.

807
01:01:09.420 --> 01:01:26.880
For people out there who perhaps don't particularly warm to this era, I think that for me, The 6 doctor audios are generally the best. certainly the ones with Bonnie Langford, as Mel, I think, are really well written, the ones with Evelyn, I think, generally are great.

808
01:01:26.940 --> 01:01:31.139
Collins performance is wonderful throughout them compared to all the other doctors.

809
01:01:31.199 --> 01:01:31.800
That's just me.

810
01:01:31.860 --> 01:01:37.079
Um, I also like the stuff with flip and spoiler alert, Jamie and Zoe.

811
01:01:37.139 --> 01:01:51.960
Um, and so, um, Yeah, so if you don't particularly like this era, but you are into the book 2 audios, I just think that there are so many good quality, Colin Baker ones because Big Finish really wanted to.

812
01:01:52.019 --> 01:01:57.900
And particularly Gary Russell at the beginning, really give Colin material worthy.

813
01:01:58.920 --> 01:02:13.380
Yeah, I mean, for our big finish special, last week, there, there was one play I was going to recommend and I didn't, and that is arrangements for war, which is a 6th doctor in the heat.

814
01:02:13.440 --> 01:02:18.239
And the main reason I didn't recommend that is it, you know, it's a brilliant play.

815
01:02:18.599 --> 01:02:27.900
Um, but it's kind of the end of a character arc for them, not even a story arc, but a character arc of the development of their relationship.

816
01:02:27.960 --> 01:02:31.019
So you really need to have heard the stories leading up to it.

817
01:02:31.079 --> 01:02:32.880
But that's the thing.

818
01:02:32.940 --> 01:02:39.780
If I was going to recommend one, I'd say, right, go to the big finished page where you can now sort by character, sort by evil and put them in chronological order.

819
01:02:40.260 --> 01:02:54.239
And at the very least, go with everything from her 1st appearance in the marrying conspiracy through to arrangements for war and see what Colin Baker is capable of doing in the role of this doctor.

820
01:02:54.300 --> 01:03:10.320
And what I find amazing is he has changed his characterisation in those so much because he, when they started, what, 1999, he'd had almost 15 years of people telling him what was wrong with his character or, you know, at least in their interpretation.

821
01:03:10.559 --> 01:03:13.320
And what I find interesting about Colin.

822
01:03:13.380 --> 01:03:19.739
You know, we've joked a bit about him like when he stopped doing interviews for Doctor Who magazine because the twin dilemma came at the bottom of their poll.

823
01:03:19.800 --> 01:03:22.980
Well, I think it's because he came at the bottom of their pole as well.

824
01:03:23.039 --> 01:03:35.460
But at the same time, you know, when he talks about his era now, he'll say things like, um, in my defence, the best thing about the code was I was wearing it, looking out instead of having to look at it.

825
01:03:35.519 --> 01:03:46.860
He is incredibly self-aware of the criticisms of his era and has sought to redress them not only for himself, but for the fans.

826
01:03:47.400 --> 01:03:54.659
And despite the fact he changes his character for those audios, it is still recognisably the same character.

827
01:03:54.719 --> 01:04:07.860
And when he records a story with Nicola Bryant, he plays it in a different way than when he records a story with Bonnie Langford or with Maggie Stables, who plays evil and he's aware of the character's chronology and development.

828
01:04:07.920 --> 01:04:23.519
So if you listen to, I think, Chronologically speaking, his earliest story in the Big Finnish Canon is either Davros or Year of the Pig, which is said in season 22, He plays the character a lot more abrasively.

829
01:04:23.699 --> 01:04:31.920
Compared to we're in our, which you recommended a few weeks ago, Todd, or the marrying conspiracy where he 1st meets Evelyn.

830
01:04:31.980 --> 01:04:35.699
Nathan and I were talking about the marrying conspiracy earlier today off mic.

831
01:04:35.760 --> 01:04:39.480
And he said, well, actually, you can say that.

832
01:04:39.480 --> 01:04:46.500
I think that Big Finish is free to experiment because they don't have to have a TV audience that they're appealing to.

833
01:04:46.559 --> 01:04:49.019
And so having Evelyn, who's older.

834
01:04:49.079 --> 01:04:55.440
Um, is great and something that we've never seen on the show, but she's someone that Colin can't bully.

835
01:04:55.500 --> 01:05:04.320
You know, she's older, like older than Colin in the sense that, you know, she she looks older than him, you know, if she seems older.

836
01:05:04.380 --> 01:05:11.699
And so she won't wear his crap, you know, and it's nice, you know, I think they have a good relationship.

837
01:05:12.960 --> 01:05:21.659
I mean, you said that he attempts to kind of be mean to her in the Marion conspiracy and she kind of slaps it down. exactly.

838
01:05:21.719 --> 01:05:24.539
I think she bribes him with cake.

839
01:05:24.599 --> 01:05:28.800
And that's the, they, they also have this master stroker.

840
01:05:28.860 --> 01:05:31.860
They introduce Evelyn who loves baking chocolate cake.

841
01:05:31.920 --> 01:05:42.480
And at the beginning of the wrong doctors, which starts with a pre-credit scene where Evelyn's just left, and the doctor realises that now he now he has to go meet Mel for the 1st time.

842
01:05:42.539 --> 01:05:52.320
It's implied that the reason he's larger when he meets Mel is because he's just spent 5 years travelling with Evelyn having a chocolate cake every day.

843
01:05:55.380 --> 01:05:55.800
Humour.

844
01:05:55.860 --> 01:06:01.079
But also fans, you know, we need to invent a reason that the 6th doctor got a bit fat.

845
01:06:01.139 --> 01:06:02.579
Very true.

846
01:06:02.639 --> 01:06:03.539
Very true.

847
01:06:03.900 --> 01:06:07.199
We're almost leaving this era into the next.

848
01:06:07.260 --> 01:06:20.219
And I always ask the question, you know, what are your thoughts at the current time of the forthcoming doctor or era and what perhaps you hope to get out of the experience of of watching the era?

849
01:06:20.880 --> 01:06:28.260
I think that this is the 1st injection of new creative kind of lifeblood into the show.

850
01:06:28.320 --> 01:06:33.900
Um, and, you know, while Eric Saywood had difficulty finding new writers.

851
01:06:33.960 --> 01:06:37.260
Andrew Carmel doesn't, and he finds a whole stable of new writers.

852
01:06:37.320 --> 01:06:40.440
And the show starts to be more grounded.

853
01:06:40.500 --> 01:06:41.820
There's more things set on earth.

854
01:06:41.880 --> 01:06:45.780
I think Earth in the recent past becomes a place that it goes.

855
01:06:45.840 --> 01:06:49.619
It starts to ditch the continuity staff.

856
01:06:49.679 --> 01:06:55.019
So, uh, next season has the Rani and Sablom glitz.

857
01:06:55.079 --> 01:07:06.960
Um, but the Rani is a kind of a holdover from the Colin Baker, era in season 24, um, and Glitz doesn't really overbalance the story that he finds himself in.

858
01:07:07.019 --> 01:07:10.679
And you know, it doesn't, it doesn't work immediately.

859
01:07:10.739 --> 01:07:13.260
I think it doesn't start working immediately.

860
01:07:13.320 --> 01:07:20.099
Um, but, There is a freshness to it. visually.

861
01:07:20.159 --> 01:07:26.159
And it starts doing things that it hasn't done before or hasn't done for a long time.

862
01:07:26.219 --> 01:07:29.760
And so it comes as a bit of a relief.

863
01:07:29.820 --> 01:07:39.599
And then when I'm expecting, I think that seasons 25 and 26 are as good as anything that the program's done, and there are some really extraordinary stories in there.

864
01:07:39.659 --> 01:07:41.940
And, you know, because no one cares about it.

865
01:07:42.000 --> 01:07:44.940
It's free to be sophisticated and subversive and stuff like that.

866
01:07:45.000 --> 01:07:46.139
Hmm.

867
01:07:46.139 --> 01:07:56.099
I'm going to try to answer this question as if it's December 1986, and I've just finished watching Trial of a Time Lord, and what do I want for the future?

868
01:07:56.159 --> 01:07:59.400
Um, Ice Warriors.

869
01:08:00.840 --> 01:08:06.840
Well, actually, I'm thinking that something I've really enjoyed about trial is that.

870
01:08:07.260 --> 01:08:10.440
Although we've had time lords, et cetera.

871
01:08:10.500 --> 01:08:31.079
For the main plots we've had, there hasn't been a massive reliance on, you know, bringing back the cybermen to try and negate the events of these 2 stories from the 1960s, while the Daleks are building a food plant, and other Daleks turn up, and are mean to them, and someone shoots off someone else's hand.

872
01:08:31.140 --> 01:08:35.460
So I kind of just want stories that work on their own without me having to know.

873
01:08:35.460 --> 01:08:38.520
A previous story I watched years ago.

874
01:08:38.579 --> 01:08:43.380
I'm liking the emphasis on character relationships and humour.

875
01:08:43.439 --> 01:08:44.520
I'm hoping that continues.

876
01:08:47.579 --> 01:08:52.920
I'm liking the diverse ideas and the diverse settings, so I'm hoping we get more diversity in that regard.

877
01:08:53.039 --> 01:08:57.300
And yeah, it the show is feeling fun again.

878
01:08:57.359 --> 01:09:09.539
The last 2 seasons before this one, so the last season of Davidson, the 1st season of Colin Baker, I felt, with the increased level of violence, that why, why is anyone still travelling?

879
01:09:09.539 --> 01:09:12.720
on this show where all these horrible things happen.

880
01:09:12.779 --> 01:09:17.279
You know, Tegan kind of mentioned it and the doctor says I must change my ways and then he doesn't.

881
01:09:17.279 --> 01:09:25.319
Whereas in this season, even though there has been certainly violence visited upon Perry.

882
01:09:25.859 --> 01:09:39.359
Mainly, except for that 10 minutes at the end of that story, it has been more fun like it used to be during, well, during the 60s, during the 70s, during the beginning of Peter Davidson.

883
01:09:39.420 --> 01:09:40.920
So I'm hoping that fun continues.

884
01:09:41.039 --> 01:09:44.579
So yeah, more fun, less reliance on the history.

885
01:09:44.760 --> 01:09:51.000
And more, yeah, more character growth would be what I was hoping for in the future.

886
01:09:51.600 --> 01:09:54.300
And not another 14 episode story.

887
01:09:55.680 --> 01:09:57.659
Well, agreed there.

888
01:09:57.720 --> 01:10:00.840
Well, listen, this is my last regular podcast until survival.

889
01:10:00.899 --> 01:10:05.159
I will be back doing a couple of commentaries, I'm sure, in between time.

890
01:10:05.220 --> 01:10:08.399
So I'm not trying to avoid this era.

891
01:10:08.460 --> 01:10:16.380
I really think shows like remembrance of the Daleks, 3 quarters of great show in the galaxy, having this patrol curse of fenneric, are some of the best Doctor Who's of all time.

892
01:10:16.439 --> 01:10:18.899
And those fighters even better than that.

893
01:10:18.960 --> 01:10:23.399
And I, and I really enjoy despite problems.

894
01:10:23.460 --> 01:10:25.199
Silver Nemesis and Battlefield.

895
01:10:25.260 --> 01:10:27.420
So the last 8 stories of Doctor Who.

896
01:10:27.479 --> 01:10:34.979
In the JNT era under Andrew Carpenter, I like the 1st 8 stories of Doctor Who under JNT and Christopher H.

897
01:10:34.979 --> 01:10:35.520
Bidmead.

898
01:10:35.579 --> 01:10:36.479
Blockbus.

899
01:10:36.539 --> 01:10:36.840
Sorry.

900
01:10:36.960 --> 01:10:39.539
I think there's a lot of really great stuff going on.

901
01:10:39.600 --> 01:10:50.340
And it goes back to what you're saying, Nathan, about next year, is that there is a new approach and a freshness and there's, there's, there's a goal and a target, and I think they miss it a lot next year.

902
01:10:50.460 --> 01:10:55.319
But you have to miss something in order to get it and they get it.

903
01:10:55.500 --> 01:10:59.159
I used to vilify season 24 to the absolute hilt.

904
01:10:59.220 --> 01:11:02.939
And my attitude to it has changed quite a lot over the years.

905
01:11:03.000 --> 01:11:06.899
I still think there are huge problems in what appears on screen.

906
01:11:06.960 --> 01:11:10.140
But there are aspects to it that I do like.

907
01:11:10.260 --> 01:11:11.399
I like Bellage.

908
01:11:11.460 --> 01:11:16.680
I like Burton, the camp leader in Dodger Banner. one of my favourite characters of all time.

909
01:11:16.739 --> 01:11:20.159
Um, And I like Tabby and Tilda.

910
01:11:20.220 --> 01:11:26.039
And I think that script and that book, uh, Paradise Towers is one of the freshest, uh, stories ever.

911
01:11:26.100 --> 01:11:27.899
But not what appears on screen.

912
01:11:27.960 --> 01:11:44.880
And my overriding feeling, From the time, is that, up to this point over the last 2 years of the show, my parents really tried to stop me watching Doctor Who, stopped me buying Doctor Who, a magazine subscription from the news agency.

913
01:11:45.180 --> 01:11:47.220
They knew what would happen.

914
01:11:47.279 --> 01:11:54.539
They knew that you would end up guesting on a long-running podcasting program. sometime in the future and they were trying to save you from it.

915
01:11:54.600 --> 01:11:56.520
Well, what happened in this season?

916
01:11:56.579 --> 01:12:02.699
My father actually sat down with me in one of the early episodes of the season to try and bond with me, right?

917
01:12:02.760 --> 01:12:09.119
And I sat there embarrassed by what I was seeing on screen and I turned to my father and I said, this isn't very good.

918
01:12:09.180 --> 01:12:10.619
You don't have to watch it with me.

919
01:12:10.680 --> 01:12:12.960
And that's the overwhelming feeling.

920
01:12:13.020 --> 01:12:20.039
Emotion that I get when I watch the 1st 3 stories of this season, and I have to fight against that, right?

921
01:12:20.100 --> 01:12:21.659
And you've seen me fight against it.

922
01:12:21.720 --> 01:12:32.340
Nathan, you've mentioned a number of times that you've seen me enjoy, um, Jolton the Man, and I'm not going to deny that the last time I watched it, I liked it a lot more than I'd ever liked it before.

923
01:12:32.340 --> 01:12:39.239
And it's this, this change behind the scenes with Andrew and a freshness of approach and something new that opens it up.

924
01:12:39.300 --> 01:12:44.699
You know, I don't want another 14 episode season where everything seems to be continuity in upon itself, you need that freshness.

925
01:12:44.760 --> 01:12:50.220
So the biggest challenge for me is next year to see, what do I really like?

926
01:12:50.279 --> 01:12:51.899
What do I think of Sylvester next year?

927
01:12:51.960 --> 01:12:59.159
I've never considered him to be my favourite doctor like at times, I've considered Patrick or John or Tom or Colin.

928
01:12:59.640 --> 01:13:07.500
But I'm really hoping that when I do sit down and watch next season, and this is the 1st time I have to say this is that I actually haven't watched ahead.

929
01:13:07.560 --> 01:13:08.760
Right?

930
01:13:08.819 --> 01:13:16.380
Every other time we've been doing these podcasts, I'm usually half a season to a season ahead, but this time I just, I just stopped and I just, I can't do it.

931
01:13:16.500 --> 01:13:19.619
I've got to be in the right frame of mind to watch what happens next.

932
01:13:19.680 --> 01:13:27.899
I'm hoping by what you guys say, because I'm sure you're going to enjoy it much more than what I do, but will it change my opinion, you know?

933
01:13:27.960 --> 01:13:29.340
and I think you have to be open to that.

934
01:13:29.399 --> 01:13:34.859
So yeah, so I'm looking forward to the change, getting rid of Eric Seywood, um, a lot.

935
01:13:35.100 --> 01:13:37.260
And, you know, we'll see.

936
01:13:38.880 --> 01:13:54.180
But before we finish, there are 3 people we need to talk about, and that is Bonnie Langford, Nicola Bryant, and Colin Baker, and just briefly, the 2 companions in his era, what they bring and what you feel now that you've watched the era.

937
01:13:54.239 --> 01:13:57.779
Um, I'm quite happy to start.

938
01:13:58.319 --> 01:14:00.239
Actually, if I may.

939
01:14:00.600 --> 01:14:02.939
Perry.

940
01:14:03.000 --> 01:14:03.960
Okay, 1st of all.

941
01:14:04.140 --> 01:14:06.720
Colin Nicola and Bonnie.

942
01:14:06.779 --> 01:14:10.020
All play the parts to the absolute best of their ability.

943
01:14:10.079 --> 01:14:12.239
There's no slacking going on at all.

944
01:14:12.899 --> 01:14:17.039
Perry's character is very cynical.

945
01:14:17.340 --> 01:14:21.239
And that works really well with Pete.

946
01:14:21.300 --> 01:14:32.159
Like when he's breathless and enthusiastic in Andrazani, and she's the one warning about danger and calling him a pain and making jokes about his glass blowing, et cetera, et cetera.

947
01:14:32.220 --> 01:14:33.000
That really works.

948
01:14:33.300 --> 01:14:38.760
The problem becomes when the early 6th doctor is quite cynical as well.

949
01:14:38.819 --> 01:14:42.539
So they're trying to out cynical each other and what'll happen is.

950
01:14:43.800 --> 01:14:51.180
A lot of the arguments between them arise from the fact that he's being cynical, but for a moment she's not being cynical.

951
01:14:51.239 --> 01:14:52.680
And so they fight.

952
01:14:52.739 --> 01:15:04.380
Whereas when you look at the mysterious planet, when she's being cynical, he's doing that thing of not really listening to her, and that makes it funny because he's being kind of warm and silly.

953
01:15:04.439 --> 01:15:12.960
And then you get that great scene where she's distraught, despite the fact her world is perfectly safe, and this is long after she would be dead anyway.

954
01:15:13.680 --> 01:15:20.340
And rather than be cynical back at her, the doctor attempts to comfort her as he would a child.

955
01:15:20.399 --> 01:15:32.340
And when that doesn't work, he then adopts a more cynical pragmatic viewpoint, but not cruelly, you know, he tries to make a joke with her and she brushes it off and he says, look, you know that your world is safe.

956
01:15:32.399 --> 01:15:35.819
You know that this doesn't matter and you know that nothing lasts forever.

957
01:15:35.880 --> 01:15:37.920
So he treats her like an adult in that moment.

958
01:15:38.039 --> 01:15:44.699
And I think that's the evolution of their characters in that at 1st they're kind of being cynical children at each other.

959
01:15:44.699 --> 01:15:47.460
And then they become cynical adults.

960
01:15:47.520 --> 01:16:07.020
But it's also a problem for the show because compare that to 2 actors who didn't get along behind the scenes, Tom Baker and Louise Jameson, in the invisible enemy when they're going through the doctor's brain and they have that beautiful bit where they're standing in front of the wind machine and talking about travelling into the land of dreams and fantasies.

961
01:16:07.439 --> 01:16:11.579
It's silly, but that is inviting us to go on adventure.

962
01:16:11.640 --> 01:16:14.399
And again, I don't blame Colin and Nicola.

963
01:16:14.520 --> 01:16:26.279
I think I think they do the best they can with the direction they're given, and there are some lovely moments of charm between them in that 1st season when they're when their characters synchronise, and they're not just being cynical and bitchy at each other.

964
01:16:26.340 --> 01:16:28.500
Then when Bonnie comes along.

965
01:16:28.560 --> 01:16:30.000
There's no chance for cynicism.

966
01:16:30.060 --> 01:16:34.380
But again, the doctor then gets to be cynical with her and she brushes it off.

967
01:16:34.500 --> 01:16:36.180
And I think that's the thing.

968
01:16:36.239 --> 01:16:44.279
If you're going to have one character who's being cynical, the other character has to be open and you can flip that occasionally, but having 2 characters be cynical doesn't work.

969
01:16:44.939 --> 01:16:48.659
But again, Colin, Bonnie, Nicola.

970
01:16:48.779 --> 01:17:00.420
All incredibly strong performances, I don't know if this is the case for Bonnie, but certainly with Colin and Nicola, they've spoken about how much they considered their performance and how much they thought about it.

971
01:17:00.479 --> 01:17:03.000
I haven't heard Bonnie talk about her performance that much.

972
01:17:03.060 --> 01:17:05.760
So I'm not saying she hasn't done that, but I just don't know about it.

973
01:17:06.539 --> 01:17:15.359
I have said this before, but I think there's a problem with having just the doctor and one female companion.

974
01:17:15.420 --> 01:17:20.039
I don't like that conception of the show.

975
01:17:20.100 --> 01:17:25.560
I think it's too small a regular cast, and there's something lonely about it.

976
01:17:26.340 --> 01:17:33.060
We kind of think that that's the normal state of affairs for the show, but of course it isn't.

977
01:17:33.119 --> 01:17:34.199
It's not that at all.

978
01:17:34.260 --> 01:17:35.760
Just maybe for a few seasons.

979
01:17:35.819 --> 01:17:38.220
Um, you know you're right.

980
01:17:38.279 --> 01:17:39.420
When does it happen?

981
01:17:39.539 --> 01:17:41.819
Because you've got all the unit people.

982
01:17:42.119 --> 01:17:46.979
And then, then you have got Sarah and the doctor for a little bit.

983
01:17:47.039 --> 01:17:52.439
You've got Lena and the doctor for a bit, but then you've got K9 in there as well as a 3rd mix.

984
01:17:52.500 --> 01:17:54.300
So it really doesn't happen that much.

985
01:17:54.300 --> 01:18:01.500
Even in the new series, you know, you've got the families, you've got Rory, you've got Jack, you've got Mickey, you've got Daddy.

986
01:18:01.920 --> 01:18:03.180
You've got Nardol now.

987
01:18:03.239 --> 01:18:14.399
I'm actually really looking forward to that because I've seen behind the scenes videos of Pearl and Matt mucking about with the TARDIS console and they actually have a really good back and forth with each other.

988
01:18:14.460 --> 01:18:16.500
So I'm hoping that translates onto screen.

989
01:18:16.560 --> 01:18:17.939
But yeah, I agree with you, Nathan.

990
01:18:18.000 --> 01:18:19.859
You need 2 people who can gang up on the doctor.

991
01:18:19.920 --> 01:18:30.239
The 1st time I really felt it was when Pete regenerates into Colin, and the only person who witnesses that, and the only person that it matters to is Perry, and no one else sees it.

992
01:18:30.300 --> 01:18:36.180
Um, And so the, It makes me a little bit sad somehow.

993
01:18:36.239 --> 01:18:37.680
It makes the world smaller.

994
01:18:37.739 --> 01:18:43.979
And we don't get to see them relate to anyone really other than guests stars and each other.

995
01:18:44.039 --> 01:18:47.100
And so I think that's a problem with the show at the moment.

996
01:18:47.159 --> 01:18:52.500
And it's a reaction, obviously, to how John Nathan Turner started the show with a big cast.

997
01:18:52.800 --> 01:19:04.800
I think that Perry is, A badly conceived character played with considerable charm by Nicola.

998
01:19:04.800 --> 01:19:35.579
I think that the previous for female character, Tegan, who, you know, was Bolshy and funny and stood up to the doctor and all of that, you know, that she was great, and we replace her with someone who, um, is, um, you know, beautiful young woman who is menaced and manhandled and mistreated by men and she becomes more of a kind of perils appalling.

999
01:19:35.699 --> 01:19:38.939
Yeah, more than anyone since Victoria, really.

1000
01:19:39.000 --> 01:19:43.619
And she certainly has a worse time of any other companion.

1001
01:19:43.680 --> 01:19:47.699
Like hers is the life that's kind of destroyed by her time with the doctor.

1002
01:19:47.880 --> 01:19:52.619
With Mel, again, I think Bonnie Langford has considerable charm.

1003
01:19:52.680 --> 01:20:02.760
I think she does a good job towards the end of season 24, but she suffers from the fact, as I said, a couple of weeks ago that 9 out of her 1st 10 episodes are written by Pip and Jane Baker.

1004
01:20:02.819 --> 01:20:10.199
She's playing it theatrical, and so all of her lines come across as really terribly artificial, but I think she's terribly charming.

1005
01:20:10.260 --> 01:20:22.739
I think Colin is saddled with a ill considered conception of the character, which he manages more or less to shake off completely during his short run.

1006
01:20:23.159 --> 01:20:46.439
And I think that character wasn't designed to play to Colin's strengths and the Colin's strengths are that he can be terribly funny and silly and rather sweet and the whole idea of an unlikeable doctor, which, you know, I guess is what we're kind of going through at the moment, that doesn't have to not work.

1007
01:20:46.500 --> 01:20:50.100
I think there's a lot to be said for the way that Peter Capaldi plays the part.

1008
01:20:50.159 --> 01:21:05.819
But I don't think it's a good fit for Colin, and I think that it's Eric Sayward, in some sense, is trying to undermine the whole idea of a hero, but he's too cynical to believe in heroes, and he doesn't want the doctor to be a hero.

1009
01:21:05.819 --> 01:21:18.899
And so, you know, he slumps in a chair when they run out of zight on 7 or completely fails to solve the problem that they find themselves in in a whole bunch of stories and stuff like that.

1010
01:21:18.960 --> 01:21:21.119
So he's really hampered.

1011
01:21:21.180 --> 01:21:25.140
He has some strength, but he's really hampered by the role he's given.

1012
01:21:25.199 --> 01:21:26.640
And the coach?

1013
01:21:26.760 --> 01:21:27.960
Horrific.

1014
01:21:28.380 --> 01:21:30.420
All right, well.

1015
01:21:31.079 --> 01:21:37.439
Something up, perhaps, for me, at the end of all this, I do agree with a lot of what both of you have said.

1016
01:21:37.500 --> 01:21:52.920
I think Nicola does a wonderful job in a role where Perry is put in peril and manhandled and the season 23 Well, at least mysterious planet version is fabulous and she gets to show her acting chops.

1017
01:21:52.979 --> 01:21:54.779
So thank you, Nicola.

1018
01:21:54.840 --> 01:22:03.000
I really like Bonnie with Colin much more than what will happen next year where I think the theatrical performance really almost destroys 2 stories for me.

1019
01:22:03.060 --> 01:22:06.899
And that's no, I'm not wanting to have a go at Bonnie.

1020
01:22:07.020 --> 01:22:10.140
I think her enthusiasm cannot be discounted.

1021
01:22:10.199 --> 01:22:12.779
It's a pity that she doesn't get more shows on real earth.

1022
01:22:13.380 --> 01:22:35.520
What I find so amazing about Colin is his status as an ambassador for the show, like whenever there's a new doctor and he's interviewed, he talks about how happy he's going to be to see Matt Smith in the role, how happy he's going to be to see Peter Capaldi in the role, considering how he was treated, there is no, he owes nothing to the show.

1023
01:22:35.579 --> 01:22:37.560
He really owes nothing to the show.

1024
01:22:37.619 --> 01:22:43.140
I remember seeing ads that he was going to be at conventions in the early 90s.

1025
01:22:43.260 --> 01:22:48.300
So he never went off being involved with the show.

1026
01:22:48.359 --> 01:22:51.960
You know, in 1989 he came back and did the stage show, the ultimate adventure.

1027
01:22:52.020 --> 01:22:58.140
You know, he took over as 2nd choice after John Pertley and, you know, didn't mind at all, didn't complain.

1028
01:22:58.199 --> 01:23:00.180
Compare that to Christopher Eccleston.

1029
01:23:00.479 --> 01:23:04.380
Who has said in recent years he had a bad time on the show.

1030
01:23:04.439 --> 01:23:12.239
He didn't want it the way that Keith Bowick treated extras and that's why he quit the show and that's why he doesn't do conventions and that's why he won't come back and do the show.

1031
01:23:12.300 --> 01:23:19.859
And the thing is, I'm not criticising him for taking that stand of defending someone lower than him in the pecking order.

1032
01:23:19.920 --> 01:23:21.600
But it's like, you know what?

1033
01:23:21.659 --> 01:23:23.939
When you have a bad time, when you have a bad experience.

1034
01:23:24.119 --> 01:23:27.779
There are multiple ways you can deal with it.

1035
01:23:27.840 --> 01:23:36.720
And Collin's way of dealing with it is to separate the horrible treatment he had at the hands of the BBC from the love that fans have for the show.

1036
01:23:37.140 --> 01:23:39.060
And that's the thing.

1037
01:23:39.119 --> 01:23:47.159
Colin will turn up at a convention, probably knowing that, hey, maybe 10% of the audience hate me and hate my interpretation, I'm not here for them.

1038
01:23:47.220 --> 01:23:49.560
I'm here because you guys love the show.

1039
01:23:49.979 --> 01:23:53.039
And he's very, very proud of his role.

1040
01:23:53.100 --> 01:24:00.779
I made the joke earlier that he didn't get interviewed for Dwim for he refused to have anything to do with Dwim for ages because he went to the bottom of the poll.

1041
01:24:00.840 --> 01:24:07.739
But at the same time, when you've been kicked for like almost 30 years about how you played the role, maybe that's a bit understandable.

1042
01:24:07.800 --> 01:24:12.539
But the thing is, he did still come back and he just does the audios and he does the conventions and he does the charity work.

1043
01:24:12.899 --> 01:24:19.260
And he does it with a big smile on his face because he knows that as much as he's criticised.

1044
01:24:19.319 --> 01:24:21.180
He's also loved.

1045
01:24:21.239 --> 01:24:23.760
And I love Colin, and I love his doctor.

1046
01:24:24.779 --> 01:24:35.939
And, you know, Out of Everyone who's played it, including Tom Baker, including David Tennant, I think he loves being on Doctor Who the most.

1047
01:24:36.000 --> 01:24:38.399
Colin, you know, I just got to say thank you.

1048
01:24:38.460 --> 01:24:39.060
I just.

1049
01:24:40.979 --> 01:24:58.199
No other doctor, I think, has had to put up with the stuff behind the scenes and decisions made out of his control, and He came along at the right time, and I hope one day Colin does listen to this, and we know that he's never going to win best Dr. Paul's.

1050
01:24:58.500 --> 01:25:00.180
Doesn't matter.

1051
01:25:00.239 --> 01:25:01.800
Those polls mean nothing to me.

1052
01:25:01.859 --> 01:25:02.520
I like them all.

1053
01:25:02.579 --> 01:25:05.699
And, you know, Colin, you'll always have my vote.

1054
01:25:23.760 --> 01:25:32.340
We're saying a very premature goodbye to the Baker now, as our power systems have been depleted, and we're making an emergency landing on the planet Excelon.

1055
01:25:32.460 --> 01:25:34.500
I'm sure everything will be absolutely fine.

1056
01:25:34.560 --> 01:25:36.300
I can't wait to try the resorts there.

1057
01:25:36.359 --> 01:25:40.260
Do come back next week for our commentary on Death to the Daleks.

1058
01:25:40.319 --> 01:25:41.939
I've heard that I heard they have a great steam room.

1059
01:25:42.060 --> 01:25:51.060
Until then, you can find us online at flightthroughentirety.sexy, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and at FTE podcast on Twitter over on Bondfinger.

1060
01:25:51.119 --> 01:26:02.760
We will shortly be welcoming Pierce Brosnan to the role of James Bond in Golden Eye, but until then, we have all preceding Bond films, including Casino Royale, 1967, and never say never again.

1061
01:26:02.819 --> 01:26:08.039
You can find that on Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes and Bondfinger cast on Twitter.

1062
01:26:08.100 --> 01:26:12.300
Until next week, may none of your Gumblejack be eaten by Spielsnapes.

1063
01:26:12.359 --> 01:26:13.199
Thank you very much for listening.

1064
01:26:13.260 --> 01:26:13.619
Good night.

1065
01:26:13.680 --> 01:26:14.279
Good night.

1066
01:26:14.340 --> 01:26:15.779
See you at survival.

1067
01:26:21.840 --> 01:26:28.319
That was Flight Through Entirety with Todd BLB, Nathan Bottomley, and Brendan Jones. theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1068
01:26:28.380 --> 01:26:32.939
This episode, Never Going to Win, was reported on the 15th of April, 2017.

1069
01:26:33.119 --> 01:26:35.579
Next episode will be released on June 18th.

1070
01:26:35.640 --> 01:26:42.840
We'd like to dedicate this episode to the memory of Maggie's Staples. who helped many fans appreciate Colin Baker's doctor in a whole new way.

1071
01:26:48.960 --> 01:26:51.000
OK, we've got a field three hours.

1072
01:26:55.319 --> 01:26:56.819
Hello.

1073
01:26:56.880 --> 01:27:01.500
The Colin Baker retrospective, um, 15th of April.

1074
01:27:02.279 --> 01:27:05.279
I don't I don't know if I have an intro.

1075
01:27:05.399 --> 01:27:06.720
You know, this is our sea devil's moment.

1076
01:27:09.779 --> 01:27:11.159
What do you mean?

1077
01:27:11.279 --> 01:27:14.220
our 1st one recorded out of order.

1078
01:27:14.279 --> 01:27:15.420
Oh, yes.

1079
01:27:15.479 --> 01:27:24.239
This is going out after ones that we've yet to record, which we can't say because we, if I include this as the tag at its point.

1080
01:27:24.300 --> 01:27:26.220
Oh, but this is going to be after those.

1081
01:27:26.279 --> 01:27:32.760
So now we can say, because we haven't yet recorded time in Corporated or the big finished audio thing.

1082
01:27:32.880 --> 01:27:34.439
That's okay.

1083
01:27:34.500 --> 01:27:36.119
Are we talking about the big finish audio?

1084
01:27:36.119 --> 01:27:37.319
I think we can.

1085
01:27:37.380 --> 01:27:38.819
I think we can, yeah, definitely.

1086
01:27:39.239 --> 01:27:45.779
Yeah, but just then I'll have been memory wiped between last week's episode of this week's episode.

1087
01:27:45.840 --> 01:27:48.539
Well, you can just talk about the general, I hope.

1088
01:27:49.260 --> 01:27:51.479
God, what am I going to say?

1089
01:27:57.539 --> 01:28:02.340
We're the only Doctor Who podcast coming at you live through your ear holes.

1090
01:28:02.399 --> 01:28:03.479
Do you remember that?

1091
01:28:03.539 --> 01:28:04.619
I think I've said that before.

1092
01:28:04.739 --> 01:28:06.720
That's what you say in the 1st episode.

1093
01:28:06.779 --> 01:28:07.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah.