Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety
the only Doctor Who podcast you actually recommends wearing real
cats on your lapels rather than just badges.
Don't try that at home and please don't sue.
I'm Brendan.
I'm Nathan I'm Todd.
And we are exploring the entire lengthy Colin Baker era today with
the Colin Baker retrospective.
I will hand over to you in a moment, Todd, but I'd like to explain
1st why Richard hasn't joined us today.
As we've discussed before, Richard, At the time, didn't really
enjoy the Colin Baker era, he found it difficult to get through.
And this time around, he has not managed to get through season
22.
He's just not enjoying it at all, and he felt that it would be
unfair both to appear as he hasn't enjoyed the era, and because he
hasn't finished the era, and he thought rather than turn up and be
negative, Um, he just decided he was going to, you know, not have
anything nice to say, not have anything at all.
As we discussed last week, you know, he loves big finish audios
but just the era as it is on television, he just can't stomach
it.
So that's why Richard isn't joining us today.
And the reason I'm joining us is because I've got lots of negative
things to say about the era.
Do you?
Have any positives at all?
Yeah.
Have you discovered some things of merit?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, that's quite short.
That's your job to find out.
I'm handing over to you.
Thank you.
Thank you listeners.
Okay, let's just start with Strong Marrier void.
I need to start on a positive note.
So, Brendan, here's your dog, Marrier void.
Edgeworth, Kimba, or the surviving nappy man.
Oh, my ponchant for older man has come back to haunt me.
Look, I think I'd have to avoid the nappy man because he's going
to eat me.
Right.
You know, so and I'm not judging anyone out there who's into
erotic cannibalism.
It's not my thing.
Okay.
I thought that last barbeque we had at yours was really good.
So I think I would have to Snog Edgeworth.
Because, you know, it's Morris Denim.
Good, lots of lovely stories, and we know he can't hold his drink
either.
Um, so he, you know, he'd be fun at parties.
I think I'd have to marry Kimba for 2 reasons.
One, he's rich enough to go aboard the Hyperion 3 and two, I know
he's going to be dead soon.
You'll inherit all of that lovely money.
I am Anna Nicole Smith, you know, people mistake us all the time
despite the fact, I'm not blonde or dead.
So, um, yeah, I think it's avoid the nappy man.
Snog, Professor Edgeworth and marry Mr. Kimber.
Great.
Nathan.
God.
It's not Marion Boyd.
Eric, say what?
Philip Martin or Ron Jones?
Oh, dear.
Dear, dear, dear.
So these are responsible for the uh, the train wreck of a story
and 2 out of 3 of our puzzling creative choices for um, season
23.
I think I would avoid Eric Saywood, because if he ever listens to
this podcast...
That's it.
Philip Martin is actually talented, I think.
He's got something going for him.
Um, yeah, let's nog Philip Martin.
At least that'll stop him talking, I suppose.
Okay.
And and Ron Jones.
You know, he's bringing in a massive BBC paycheque, I think, for
directing Doctor Who in the mid 1980s.
Hed be rolling in it.
So I'd have to marry him.
And did you know after he did Mind Warp?
The reason he didn't work for Doctor Who again was nothing to do
with the quality of his work, he actually moved to Germany and
directed for television there until he died in 1993.
Ah.
That soon after.
Yeah, yeah, sure.
Wow.
So, so much like Mr. Kimba, you know, you've only got a few.
Yeah.
I was going to give myself a really good one.
Now I've got to give myself something that's great.
No, no, can I give you one?
Okay, listeners, I'm ready for it.
I'm not ready for it all.
No.
Yes, go for it.
Snog, marry, avoid.
Bruckner, Doland, or Lasky.
Which one's Bruckner?
He's he's the remember.
He's the highly strong one with the moustache.
Yeah, Buckner's Gary McDonald from Mother of the Sun.
Oh, okay.
Doland is the curly haired one who is the villain.
And...
Well, they know who Lasky is.
Yes.
I'm surprised.
The vervoids actually.
I'm marrying Lasky.
Oh God, yeah.
And um, I think I'm going to avoid the murderer.
Yeah, no, I think that's why.
I think that's why.
So it means I have to snug Gary McDonald from mother and son.
Oh well, there you go.
There you go.
Free moustache ride.
Oh, wow.
Wow.
All right.
We'll have another one of those.
Because I told you something.
No, I've actually got I've actually got one that I that I think
you'll rather enjoy.
Okay, this is probably the most controversial era of the program.
And we certainly came into it very differing opinions.
What's your feeling now that you've watched this whole era?
Has, has, has your opinion changed?
But the better for the worse.
I think that the quality of the stories is worse than in the
Davison era.
And I think all the flaws of the Davis and era are really, really
apparent in this era.
So I think the stories are worse.
I think they're repetitive and unimaginative and, you know
tiresome.
I think there are some exceptions.
I thought that the 2 doctors was good because it's Bob Holmes, I
thought that Revelation of the Daleks was, say, was best script
and was really interesting and was clearly inspired by Holmes.
So I don't think it's, the stories are completely without merit
but just the tone, I think, is unpleasant.
I guess what I found is that, The bits of Collins performance that
don't work are overwhelmingly to be found in season 22.
And it's the bullying and the kind of nastiness.
And that now seems to me to be more easily separable from his
performance as a whole.
It's clear that everyone involved soon regards that as a mistake.
And it's not really very present in season 23.
I think there are some things that Colin is very good at, and I
guess I hadn't really been aware of this before.
I think he's funny.
Um, and I think his doctor works when he's oblivious rather than
unpleasant.
So all of those things he does in season 23 where, you know, the
companions warning him about danger and he's kind of ignoring them
or agreeing with them and then blundering on anyway.
And I also think because he's bombastic and overconfident, it's
funny when he gets cut down by being wrong and he's very
frequently wrong.
And I think that's funny and sort of rather sweet.
And so that's something I think I've come to appreciate about his
performance.
And I haven't had the big finish experience that you guys have
had.
But it seems to me that the big Finnish doctor is more likeable
than the season 22 doctor.
And so Colin gets to do things that he's good at and leave behind
just the sort of terrible mistakes of the way his doctor was kind
of initially characterised.
Okay, Brendan.
Yeah, the sort of new thing I've picked up on in this era.
The 6th doctor has always been a favourite of mine even before Big
Finish.
I think, possibly as a child, I liked the lack of filter, because
that is very childlike quality to not think before you speak.
And there's certainly elements of that in this doctor's
characterisation.
I think now it's less of a matter of not thinking before he
speaks.
He knows exactly what he's saying and he knows exactly what the
effect is going to be.
And it goes back to something you said when we were recording the
twin dilematod in that we go from having a doctor who is very
passive and sort of is happy to sit back and watch events unfold
and then step in.
So having a doctor who is proactive for better or for worse, you
know, he might blunder into a situation and then have to fix what
he's done, but that is a deliberate choice.
I think the problem here is a combination of the fact that, and
we've said this quite a bit, The production team are now just
making Doctor Who because that's what we do now.
You know, we're making Doctor Who because we've always made Doctor
Who.
The problem then arises because Colin and Nicola come in and they
are enthusiastic and talented and want to make this a real go.
And they're kind of the only 2 people that enthused for the
project.
So they're not getting material that's worthy for them.
Unlike, however, Peter Davidson.
Because Peter got some material that wasn't worthy of him.
And you can kind of see he's visibly bored and phoning it in.
It's a competent performance, but there's not much intent behind
the eyes.
Colin and Nicola, regardless of the material they're given.
Give the same energy and the same dedication and the same.
Believability and verisimilitude in their performance, you know
you believe in these characters.
The problem is you might not like them all the time, especially in
the case of the doctor, you might not like him all the time.
I don't think Perry ever becomes unlikeable.
But there is a truthfulness, even in the early troubled part of
this era, that wasn't always there in the Davis era.
Despite the fact that the quality of the show goes down through no
fault of Colin and Nicola.
I enjoy this era more than the previous era because there is a
greater consistency of delivery.
You kind of know what you're getting.
And when we were discussing season 22, I think there's a hit rate
of 4 good, enjoyable stories out of 6 in there for me.
With Season 23, the biggest surprise for me watching this, and as
our listeners now know, I sat down and watched it all in one day
is, How good?
Mind Warp mostly is.
It's kind of just the last 10 minutes where it falls apart.
And it's not just the death of Perry in that 10 minutes because
dramatically that is something that could have worked.
But again, the emphasis is wrong.
There is an attempt by Ron Jones of all people. to try and give it
some visual flair and, you know, excellent performances, to try
and make this something weighty.
But I think it's undermined even before we get to the retcon at
the end because.
It's Doctor Who doing the kind of death that Doctor Who in the new
series might do and actually having fallout from that.
But there's there's no real fallout.
You know, it's just, it's the initial impact and we don't see
anyone dealing with it or grieving with it.
It was the same problem back with Adrip.
But even then there was a scene.
Of people who knew Adric and loved him discussing it.
You know, whereas this?
The doctor's got no one to talk to about Perry's death.
So, yeah, the big thing I've come away with from this is Colin
Nicola, later, Bonnie, I don't think any of them set a major foot
wrong except for the twin dilemma.
The violence in the twin dilemma from on the part on behalf of the
doctor is still inexcusable.
I know Colin was new, but He knew the show, and he should have
known enough to step up and say, hold on, I think we're taking
this too far.
But aside from that, I don't think any of the 3 of them set a foot
wrong, and I think they're very poorly served by people who aren't
interested in their jobs anymore.
Interesting.
It comes at a weird time in our own personal sort of Doctor Who
journey, though, doesn't it?
Because you and me told, at least, because we're at a particular
age where we're starting to own the program a bit, you know, like
Tom was the doctor when we kind of started watching, I think.
Is that right?
And so, you know, Pete and Colin are our 1st new doctors and we
kind of watch that unfold.
I remember being really excited when Colin came along because I
thought this is going to be our doctor.
I've grown to appreciate Pete's performance, particularly during
you know, our flight through entirety.
But I think at the time, he, didn't really grab me.
And so I understand that feeling that this sort of new, a new sort
of big bombastic doctor in the, in the kind of mould of Tom Baker
which is what I think we thought we were getting.
I remember saying to a friend of the podcast, Matthew Farrow, this
is, this is going to be our doctor.
This is gonna be really something.
He is my doctor.
Yeah, he is my doctor.
And I'm really proud of that. you know?
He came along at the time I needed him to come along.
And the, I can't fault his performance.
I just I just can't fault it.
One of the things that you said, Nathan, is the location work and
a real strength, and that's something I really have appreciated
this time through.
And also his lightness of touch in season 23.
It's a very different performance and I never really have seen it
before.
It's only now looking back.
That you then look at those harder edges in season 22 with the
character, right?
Which I can now see a lot more of.
And I don't necessarily have a problem with them, but it's
something that, you know, at the end of the season, it seems to be
softening by revelation of the Daleks.
But it could not have continued in that same way.
And I think one of the things is if the show hadn't have been axed
or removed for 18 months.
We, of course, have taken a journey into the season that that
never was.
And when I was choosing that particular set of stories, which I
recommended to listeners, it was choosing the ones that I felt
could bridge between what actually exists.
And so I went for all the the positives.
Yeah.
But when you actually sit down and you look at that season, that
never was and what the production team was not bringing to the
table in terms of originality, would they have really addressed
the peri doctoral relationship in a really meaningful way if they
had not been stopped by the BBC to say, look, things have to
change.
You know, if nothing had been said, would it have just continued
on?
Do you know what I mean?
It did sound like, and it's hard to know, but it certainly sounded
like Colin and Nicola had thought about their performance after 18
months away and had decided that these 2 wouldn't be travelling
together if they still had their season 22 relationship going.
That's true, but I'm saying like if we had got the season that
never was.
I don't, I'm not convinced that that would have happened.
No, you're right.
And and I know that you complain about the lack of ideas and that
sort of thing.
I think in season 22, I don't have a problem with having the
cybermen, all the Centaurans, or the Daleks.
We've had that before in Tom's 1st season to have a new doctor in
but then you needed something new.
Like, like, if that had been the end of Eric Sabard and John
Nathan Turner?
Fair enough, but of course that's, you know, by the bye.
I've come to appreciate season 23 a lot more, a lot more, like
there's so many more positives that I really like in it.
Look, I've gone on about the trial and what I think of that
construct and how poorly that serves the show and it's the wrong
vehicle for them bringing it back.
But I still like it.
Like I've actually, I actually like it, which is bizarre.
I still prefer season 22 over 23 because you've got individual
stories and I still, there's 4 stories in there that I really
love.
And I know it's not everybody's cup of tea.
You know, coming into this, listeners, you know, the original
brief way back was, I was just going to come in and do this era.
I turned up a lot sooner, right?
And so, you know, it's been a joy to be able to do the entire
era.
And I think Richard, you know, we did a switcheroo with season 23
24 because I really wanted 23 and Brendan's outlined, Richard's
reasons.
And if there's just one person out there that, for me, has a
reevaluation of this year and say, look, there is something in
here that I like more than what I did, then I'm really happy.
And all Doctor Who is, to me, imperfect, right?
And sometimes the imperfections in some eras aggravate people more
than others. you know?
And so the imperfections here forced by 45 minute episodes or a
one story season structure.
Don't bother me as much as what other people might be bothered
by.
But I can, but I can see the problems.
I can see, I can, you know, I can see the problems in the writing
in terms of the bitch scenes and that sort of structure in season
22 But, you know, I'm not desperately upset about it.
Yesterday on Facebook, someone posted something asking our opinion
about the Daleks, you know, the original 7 part Dalek story from
season one.
And the only thing that I could say was that I love it to death.
But if I had to sit down and write a 5000 word essay about what's
crap about it, I would have absolutely no difficulty doing that at
all.
And the same with season 17.
You know, season 17 is a lot of cardboard sort of space corridors
and and, you know, with the exception of City of Death.
And, you know, there's a parallel, I think, between season 17 and
season 22 where, again, it's lots of space corridors with science
fiction and things happening.
I think season 17 is saved by the charm of the regulars and the
wit of the script editor.
But, you know, it's not like the show hasn't been like this
before.
I think a big positive of the Colin Baker era is its willingness
to experiment.
Because the Davidson era, I'm I'm struggling to come up with
something that was experimental.
Enlightenment.
Yes, okay.
Modern Undead.
Enlightenment.
Yeah, modern undead with its unusual storytelling.
Yeah, fair enough.
Earth shock.
Yeah, but at the end of Black Orchid.
You shut.
You know what?
Okay.
If you look at various other dog 2 seasons, if you look at season
five, you know, you know, that's the Trout and Monster season.
If you look at season seven, it's like, that's the serious doom
watch style.
Season eight, that's where the master comes in.
Season 11, that's when Sarah Jane arrives.
Season 16, it's the key to time.
Season 17, it's Douglas Adams.
Season 22.
That's the one with the 13 45 minute episodes.
And is it too violent?
Season 23.
That's trial of a timelord.
You know.
They are instantly recognisable things about the whole season.
Yeah.
And it's kind of like, on the one hand, we did have a producer and
a script editor who were tired of working on the show and had
trouble coming up with individually interesting ideas, but they
try instead to come up with overarching ideas of tone.
Which I agree, the tone of season 22 is bizarre.
It's like, imagine season 22, but with the tone and execution, and
performance from Colin of season 23.
I think it would be a lot more fondly remembered because some...
If there was a bit less cannibalism, you reckon?
Well, not even less cannibalism because we're going to see
cannibalism next year.
Don't quite effectively, but still scary.
You know, but not horrible.
And I think that's that's part of the problem.
Doctor Who is always scary, but when it veers into the territory
of being horrible and horrific, Then that becomes a problem.
I think season 22 would be a lot better remembered.
I think the show probably still would have been put on hiatus
because I don't think the show going on hiatus was largely to do
with the quality of the show.
I think it was an ideological agenda within the BBC of this looks
cheap.
We're going to get rid of it because season 17 looks cheap and
it's magnificent, you know, even even the space corridors has
Nightmare of Eden has horns of Nimon, which may not be highbrow
high quality, but it's still incredibly enjoyable.
You know, the scripts of season 22, by and large, the stories make
narrative sense, with one or 2 exceptions like the end of time
lash.
The relationship between the doctor and Perry could have been
played in a different way without massive changes to dialogue.
What you were saying a moment ago told about, you know, would they
have changed direction without the hiatus?
And no, I don't think they would have done.
Because if you read the novelisation of the nightmare fair.
At the beginning, when Perry is complaining about being in
Blackpool and the doctors telling her how wonderful it is, and he
says to her, you're going to enjoy this if it kills you.
The way it's written. is exactly how it is in season 22, like the
doctor grits his teeth and Perry rolls her eyes in lady yoga.
And when it comes to Big finish, doing it, Colin and Nicola
instead play it really warmly and cheekily because they're just
like, we don't have someone up in the box now saying, no, be
nastier, be nastier, be nastier.
So, Yeah, I think the only way the original season 23 would have
been a departure is if Colin and Nicola put their foot down.
And I'm not blaming them for that in this instance because really
that's not an actor's job.
I think it's hard too when you've got a production team who's been
there and know the show and you're coming in. you know, you can't
really own it for a certain length of time.
I've discussed this back in the when we did the twin dilemma.
Um, It's it's the Eric Sabre J and T combo.
And I think Eric became script editor far too soon.
You know, I think he needed to be mentored much like Bob Holmes
was mentored by Terrence Dix with a different script editor, and
then when he's got a clear idea of how to construct stories and
what he wants to do, then come in.
You know, he's come in and he's had to rescue various scripts at
times, and I think done a competent job, but his vision of the
show, and and that whole, where he's taking it, and, and I just
think the whole insular approach back on the history without the
ideas is symptomatic of the fact that he needed.
He made it Christopher H bid me to be there for 3 years.
And that decision comes down to who.
John Nathan Turner, who could have supported him, but John, of
course, you know, is afraid of writers and he loves the show, but
at the same time, his own insecurities have forced a series of
decisions.
Yeah, there's an increasing number of people who won't direct for
him anymore or who won't write for him anymore.
It was the thing that in the slip back novelisation in Eric
Saywood's sort of grotesque parody portrait of John Nathan Turner
where it's only kind of old hacks who are prepared to write
scripts or direct, and anyone sort of inventive and interesting
won't be employed anymore.
And that isn't really, say, it's fold, that is down to J and T. I
think the say would problem is, the, Not necessarily that he's
mining the history of the show.
Um, I think JNT's doing that a bit.
I think he's spending a lot of time at American conventions and
getting a lot of adulation from people who, uh, you know, Like the
Doctor Who Monster book.
So he's pandering to fans.
He doesn't really understand what the show should be doing.
No.
And I think the problem that Saywood brings to the table is a kind
of cynicism where he thinks that the doctor being heroic is kind
of naive and not something that belongs on modern television.
And so he sidelines the doctor or undermines him all the way back
from Pete, you know, in earth shock and resurrection of the
Daleks.
And if you compare it, Russell T. Davies, I think. is capable of
really great cynicism and negativity and there's a kind of abyss
behind his work.
Look at midnight and how awful all the people are on that bus.
United bus lines.
Sorry.
Well, look at Love and Monsters, where he creates a whole heap of
really likeable characters and then just kills them all in this
sort of brutal way.
Or if you look at, I think it's episode 6 of cucumber, which is
one of the darkest things I've ever seen on television.
Russell is capable of great cynicism.
But he knows what the show is for and what a family audience
wants.
And he creates a positive role model in the doctor who inspires
people to be better.
He wants to make the show fun.
He's aware that there's a family audience, so he can't rely too
heavily on space corridors that needs to be grounded in reality.
All of those are things that say would lax.
And so his cynicism goes unchecked, I think.
And I think it's spoiling the program at this point.
Yeah, it needs to change.
Like I'm not going to deny that in any way, shape, or form.
I think I think the lack of the lack of current earth stories is a
real problem.
And I would have loved to have seen more of that, you know, with
this doctor.
It's too many space corridor spaceships, alien planets.
And this is why I think the coat is a problem, but not in the way
people think it is.
You know, we've said with the coat.
That, It would look weird on modern day earth and what have you.
I think maybe the production team thought that, so they're like
let's not put it on modern day earth, and you think, no, Doctor
Who is about breaking stories.
You put him on earth and everyone says to him, what's with the
coat?
and he says, what do you mean?
That's the joke, if you like.
And that is why this doctor is good for children because the
doctor doesn't have a problem with the coat.
You know, you there, villain, you have a problem with the coat.
Well, that's not his problem.
It's not.
There's nothing wrong with someone wearing something colourful.
So, I think they kind of limit themselves unnecessarily, and if
they had have had Mondeurf Day stories.
They could have had fun with that limiting, with that limiting
factor.
I mean, you do get rid of the code in like the 2 doctors, like, you
know, it's not around.
Yeah, and it looks, I think that outfit looks pretty good.
I actually think the coat works really well on Big Finish
obviously partly because you don't have to look at it.
But they do make jokes about the code.
Exactly.
It does actually play a role.
This is where I kind of think John Nathan Turner's vision of the
program is a real problem because he sees the doctor in a costume
and it's so rigid and you can't change it.
And one of the things, I really love the design of the code
right?
And I think in season 22 for me, it, I find that it generally does
work.
By the time you get to 23, it should not be there.
I think it's a mistake, okay?
Bottom line is in the long term, it is a mistake.
If there was a different producer coming in, or John had a
different, like, idea of what the doctor actually is and who he
actually is, we wouldn't have had that coat for 23.
You look at Tom and John.
Yeah, they have the same basic outline, but it changes every year
here.
It's rigidly a costume, you know?
And not only that, they had to remake it, and they remade it
exactly the same.
You know, still have it as patchwork, but have some complementary
colours on there.
Because of course, famously it was made to entirely clash with
itself.
It just needs to be like that blue version that they've done on
the internet.
It just needs to be.
It's too unreal.
And to me, it also goes down to the opening credits, which, you
know, they put all the colour in, but it's, it's, you know, it's
just a rehash of paint, right?
Which, you know, it should have been distinctive and their own, own
it, right?
And in season 23, you do get the new theme, but it doesn't work
with the current titles because you're used to the Peter Howell
version.
Yeah.
I think there is a possible justification for just rehashing
Peter's visuals, which is the size of the show in America.
So, in a way, that look of titles was becoming synonymous with
Doctor Who.
So it's like, rather than create something entirely new, we've got
to keep the brand, because JNT was very conscious of branding
which is part of the reason for the costume idea as well.
It doesn't quite come off, but I think I can see the rationale
there.
Of course, they were talking about doing a new title sequence for
him for trial and didn't because of the 8000 motion control shot
of the trial space station, which don't give me wrong.
It looks great.
But the problem is, it kind of highlights the cheapness of
everything else.
And I suppose, you know, this era is a bit of an example of an era
of extremes.
You know, we get a nice, fun, like fluffy romp, like mark of the
Rani, and then a few weeks later, people are eating their own
relatives as protein supplements, you know.
Yeah.
Oh, this era frustrates me so much because there is so much missed
opportunity here.
And you know, when Colin early on was giving interviews and
talking about how he envisioned the character developing over 8
years.
You can see him doing it on screen when you know that and it's
It's not just sad from a point of view of he got fired from a job
he really loved.
It's sad from a point of view of we didn't get to experience
that.
And I love Sylvester McCoy's doctor.
When you guys earlier were talking about the fact that, you know
watching live, you came to it with Tom and John and then you came
into Pete and Europe left a bit disappointed by him.
But yeah, now Colin is the guy.
The thing is, for me, as a kid, I had John, Tom, Pete, Colin, all
in a mix, all on rotation.
For me, it's Sylvester McCoy who was, you know, he's coming in. hes
my doctor.
Not that I was dissatisfied with any of the others, but I can get
what you're saying about Colin, and especially then, if you're
looking at that, and having that feeling, and then all of a sudden
he disappoints you in some way, that's even more, that's even more
hurtful.
Do you believe that Colin should have been let go at the end of
season 23?
Or is that a useless question?
I think he was the fall guy.
I don't think it was his fault.
And so he was just someone visible to kind of take the blame.
He was sort of a scapegoat.
I do think that the show I do think that his doctor was
misconceived and his departure from the program gave them a chance
to rethink.
And I think they did take that chance.
I don't think they just sort of put Sylvester McCoy in a pullover
and pointed him at the direction of studio one and said, go off
and do your thing.
I think that they did think about, um, what he was going to be
like as the doctor.
Um, and I think the only reason that happened isn't because it was
sort of Esther McCoy, it's because Andrew Carmel came in.
And so the real issue was the creative team.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree with you there.
It's possible to imagine a change of creative team that goes back
to the drawing board and decides what it is that works and doesn't
work about Colin's doctor and makes it work.
Um, and I think that that would have been possible.
Yeah.
I agree with everything that you've just said, you know, based on
his performance in season 23 and addressing issues that have been
discussed.
He is the full guy, and, you know, behind the scenes, they chose
not to replace the creative team when they could have, they chose
to keep it off the air for 18 months.
You know, which, It's already in the 1980s only on air for 12
weeks, 13 weeks a year.
It's less identifiable.
They're choosing to put it out there that it's in trouble, you
know, so this is, you know, I'm talking about Jonathan Powell and
Michael Gray, who don't like the show. they not supporting it.
Yeah.
And you can see.
Um, I understand like, you know, at the end of this season.
They're not supporting the show.
If they turned around and tried to axe the show.
People would go, well, why don't you get rid of the doctor?
You know?
Because if you look at the history of the show, in terms of pure
ratings.
Ratings this year are down by 2.2 million, right?
If you go back to Billy Hartnell, for example, after the Daleks
Master Plan, which is around 9 million, his ratings go down into
the gutter by the end of that season, but behind the scenes
they're putting in place new companions, new production team
they're thinking about the future of the show, Hartnell's going to
be asked to leave, we're thinking about a new actor.
And, you know, Patrick Chowton will come in and the ratings will
go up, you know, to 7.5 to 8.5 million.
And if you keep looking at the patterns throughout the history of
the show, you know, at the end of the trout era, the ratings are
down again, but there's a new production team, a new actor coming
in.
The BBC supported even after John's 1st season.
Like at the end of that it does trail off, but then in the 2nd
season, they're tweaking it.
They're putting it in a later time slot, it's suddenly in the top
20.
They're supporting it behind the scenes.
And then the 70s, well, it's a foregone conclusion.
And then when it's perceived that the production values are not
good like in season 17, they've got a new team coming in or and
although Tom's ratings in his last season are a disaster.
He's leaving this, a new doctor coming in, the ratings go back up
from 5000000 to 9 to 10 million. like there's all these patterns.
So on the surface of things, certainly, you could say, Jonathan
Power easily says, well, you know, we brought it back.
It's got less ratings, you know, but they've done nothing behind
the scenes to really support the show, like as far as I'm
concerned.
And so no one is going to tune back into the show next year if
they discover that we have a new script, their data. because no
one can see that.
But if you can Colin and replace him.
That's a view a visible change in the program.
Yeah.
And so maybe...
Well, I mean, as I said, after every new doctor, you get a spike
of interest.
Even Colin, you know, the 8.900000 at the beginning of season 22.
Like people have realised that there's a new doctor for one week.
There is a visible spike.
But in in axiom and bringing in somebody new, they're obviously
undermining John Nathan Turner even more.
And the other thing they do.
Is they move the show against Coronation Street.
Yeah. which is getting 25 to 30000000 viewers.
The opposition's only getting 3 to 4.
So what's the notice operandi?
New doctor comes in. might get 5 million.
If it drops down to four, That's lower than this season, right?
Bye bye.
We've tried to rescue it with a new doctor.
But of course, as I mentioned, in our trial of a time lord.
Every new story in the Sylvester McCoy era gets like, you know, 5
one, then 5.2 and 5.3 and 5.5 at the beginning of every story.
There is a visible new story.
And because you can then next year, compare Doctor Who to other
shows in that slot. getting a 1000000 viewers more.
Yeah.
Anecdotally, I know quite a few people who say that at the end of
twin dilemma or after one of Attack of the Cybermen, they stopped
watching Doctor Who, they didn't like the new doctor.
But, The ratings, you know, you had that spike at the beginning of
22, and then they settle in the high 6s, low 7s, which isn't that
bad compared to Davison, who was getting high 7s, low 8s.
When the show is cancelled slash put on hiatus, because it was
cancelled 1st and then they backpedalled.
Why did they backpedal because of massive fan reaction?
There are individuals and there are a lot of individuals who
stopped watching because they didn't like Colin Baker, but the
important thing is, that was not the majority of the audience
which is the picture we are painted now, when we discuss the
hiatus.
And when we discussed the cancellation, there's this fan wisdom
that everyone hated Colin Baker.
And it's like, okay, no, if you consider the average audience of
the last Davidson season to the average audience of the 1st Colin
Baker season, 18th of the audience hate a Colin Baker, just over
10%.
And that's being generous, you know, there might just be people
who couldn't tune in for whatever reason, but if we assume that
everyone who stopped watching stopped watching because of Colin
Baker, That's what, 12.5% of the audience didn't like him.
It's significant, but it's not disastrous, and the ratings are
still good.
Ratings generally go down anyway too.
You have to control for the fact that, you know, over the years
there's more kinds of media and things like that.
Yeah, absolutely.
And, you know, he had stiff competition with with the A team.
You know, it was like Buck Rogers back in season 18.
Or Batman or Batman at the controls.
Um, you fast forward 2 years to where they fire Colin to get
someone else in.
And I puzzled for years over that.
It's like, you know what?
They did everything you asked.
The ratings while lower.
Were steady.
There was good audience appreciation figures.
For the trial.
There were pretty decent reviews for it.
Why change?
The star without changing the producer.
Why not just cancel the show?
And I think the whole reason we get Solister McCoy, it's not
because the BBC suddenly care about the show.
It's not because the BBC want people tuning in because they put it
up against Coronation Street.
It's so, in their minds, they're like, it will continue to go down
the ratings will continue to go down.
We will be able to justify cancelling it without getting a massive
backlash again.
Yes.
It's become a point scoring exercise now, from the people on the
top floor.
And the last thing they expect to happen.
Is this script editor to come in, and to get the job by saying, in
the interview, when asked the question, what do you want to do
with Doctor Who?
Andrew Cartmel responds with, I want to bring down the
government.
They're not expecting. not expecting anyone to care about the
show.
Yeah.
They're not expecting anyone who works on it to care about it
because they've just seen for 2 years that the 2 people in charge
are making it because it's because it's still being made.
And you know what?
I am grateful.
That JNT and Eric Saywood were still making Doctor Who for those 2
years.
I still enjoy it.
But no one at the BBC really understands.
What Doctor Who is meant to be as you keep saying, Nathan.
They just view it as this cash cow, and in 3 years, they're going
to figure out they can make just as much money from it without
spending anything on it.
It's funny, isn't it, that when they do finally cancel it after
season 26, that they don't cancel it.
There's no there's just no announcement.
Yeah, a new season doesn't come back and we have a couple of years
where it's at a time where the BBC is increasingly outsourcing and
doing much less in-house, and so there would be all these rumours
about independent production teams taking it up and stuff.
And eventually that bubbles along for so long that, you know
eventually we realise it's not coming back, but there's never the
outcry.
Um, that we had, you know, at the at the cancellation at the end
of season 22.
I think it's, it's ironic that, you know, at the end of 24, Michael
Gray is gone, to show, despite being put in a death slot and
visibly with, you know, changing the star of it, it actually
outperforms it and they, you know, they're left with, well, if we
cancel it now, people will be going, but it's doing, it's doing
good in this slot, you know?
And then you've got season 25, you've got the whole 25 year thing
that you can use as publicity and that sort of thing.
So throughout all of these events that have happened over the last
2 years, et cetera.
Funnily enough, the show keeps soldiering on to, it's going to get
25 years, you know?
Yeah.
Oh, that's been really quite intense.
I think we need to lighten things up with the sub, Mario, void. we
do that now?
think so.
All right, so I'm going to go with Nathan.
Here's your snog, Mario Void.
Catomara.
Jacqueline Pierce.
Eleanor Braun.
Yes.
Okay, the usual stog Mary boy.
Oh my god.
I don't want to avoid any one of those.
Who would I avoid?
I think I would have to avoid Kate O'Mara because I'm allergic to
cats.
And she has a little she had a little cat sanctuary or something
like that, didn't she?
Or is that just been absolutely fabulous?
Cat's on crack.
Yeah, cats on crack.
Yeah.
So I'd have to avoid her, but it would be, I'd feel bad about that
because she is fabulous, particularly next year when she's dressed
as Bonnie Langford, which I just absolutely adore.
Um, uh, so Jacqueline Pierce has been a lifelong love of mine, uh
she's the only person that I've ever cosplayed as uh, at a
convention.
I dressed as president and supreme commander of the Terran
Federation Serverland.
Um, So I think I'd have to marry her so that I could get sort of
you know, access to sort of fashion tips and and all of that sort
of thing.
Eleanor Braun.
I can't remember who I said my favourite guest star of the season
is, but I'm going to suddenly say that it's her.
So I think, uh, you know, a torrid 15 minutes of passion with uh
Eleanor Braun or something that I wouldn't regret, uh, so uh
that's my answer.
Excellent.
Brendan.
I've been really horrible to you today.
This is terrible.
Okay.
Paul Darrow.
Brian Blessed.
And Martin Jarvis.
Oh, actually, that's not too bad at all.
Look, I think I'd have to avoid Paul Darrow because we'd just try
to act to each other and I don't need the competition.
I think I'd snog Brian Blessed.
Because seriously, if you look at Brian Blessed in the 60s in the
Avengers, and even in Mind War, Brian Blessed's pretty hot, but I
don't think I could live with all that noise.
So, you know, yeah, Toro affair with Brian Blessett and Mary
Martin Jarvis, he's lovely.
He's married to Rosalind Dares, you know.
They both have exquisite tastes.
So yeah, I think I'd have to marry my Martin Jarvis in a in like a
3 way marriage thing.
I have no desire to usurper.
Uh, Snogg, Brian Blessed, Mary Martin, Jarvis avoid Paul Darrow.
Right.
Excellent.
Well, here's my snog barrier void.
Yes, I've skewed this people.
Jason Connery.
Luke?
Gary Katie.
Dibber.
Oh, fire.
So I'm avoiding Jason Connery.
Because he's just terribly wooden.
I'm snogging Luke.
Yep, before the tree episode.
When I'm marrying Dipper.
That's a man.
Enough said, and he's funny.
I think I just ended that slightly.
I think I, um, I think I'd snog Deborah and marry Luke just
because, um, you know, Luke, with, without the whole tree
episode.
So let's just write that out of Canon.
But also, you know, Dibba being a convicted criminal.
No, I just want kind of 15 minutes and a cup with him rather than
you know, be looking over my shoulder every day of married life.
You could have like lovely picnics under Luke. couldn't you?
Once he turned into a tree.
You know, I think that would be all right.
Has he provide you with oxygen and shade?
Has anyone else read the book, sister Kate?
There's a scene in that involving a tree.
Anyway, moving on.
So we talk about top 3 stories and the opposite, the least
favourite.
Three stories.
So let's go with the least favourite, your bottom 3 if you have to
choose.
I can always start if you'd like me to.
Yeah, go on.
Timelash?
Twin dilemma.
And trial of a Time Lord.
All right, that's pretty good.
Mine would be pretty similar.
I don't think time lash is very good.
I hate twin dilemma. one of my very bottom stories.
You had it top of your bottom 10, I think, at one point, Todd.
Yeah, it's still there.
Yeah.
So I think Toon Dilemma's terrible.
I think timelashes sort of, you know, it's got some things going
for it, but it's sort of basically incompetent.
I think that vengeance on Varos is massively overrated, but um
it's not bad enough for me to want to put it in the bottom three.
I'm sorry, I'm thinking maybe Attack of the Cybermen comes in as
one of my bottom three.
Brendan.
The twin dilemma for reasons we've already discussed.
The 2 doctors, as I said at the time, I just think it's far too
long and I think losing the New Orleans stuff without something as
good to replace it in the Spain stuff just means, you know, we're
running around.
Well, they're still very pretty part of Severe, but as some friend
of the podcast, Simon Moore has told us.
It's not even the pretty bit of Seville.
And then for my 3rd slot, look, it's between time lash and mind
warp.
And okay, so the case for time lash is it's pretty boring.
It's badly executed, the case for mind warp is, it's got a
horrible ending, but the thing is mind warp is still very well
directed.
It's well written and it's well performed, whereas Timelash has
Vina.
Um, so I think it has to be time lash, even though out of those
three.
I'm very happy to rewatch Time Lash and still very much enjoy it
whereas 2 doctors, I derive little enjoyment from and the twin
dilemma, I derive almost no enjoyment from.
So, yeah, twin dilemma, the 2 doctors, and time lash.
All right.
So let's go with the other end of the spectrum, the 3 that you
enjoy the most.
So I would say the 2 doctors is the best Colin Baker story.
Because, you know, it's Bob Holmes and it's, I actually quite like
the length.
It's got some good location work and it has Jacqueline Pierce in
it.
I would say, Revelation of the Daleks come second.
I think it's well-directed and it's say it's best script.
It's riffing on something, uh, that's pretty good and it has
Eleanor Braun in it.
Yes, okay.
Um, and...
I really struggled to find a 3rd one.
Possibly.
Hmm.
I can see why people like.
I'm going to say, I'm going to say terror of the fur points.
Because I don't think it's very good, but I think it is kind of
enjoyable and it's straightforwardly doing something.
And, you know, as we said in, uh, Mark of the Rani, uh, it gets
the doctor to be doctor-ish and to kind of solve the problem in an
ingenious way and things.
It's marred by the fact of the trial, obviously.
And it's just fun and camp and silly as well, I think.
And it has Janet in it.
Good.
Right.
My top three, Mark of the Rani.
Because there's a lightness of touch to it.
Cato Mar is great.
Despite the fact that Anthony only gets the thing to do that I
think is the main problem with the master and he's just there to
kill the doctor, he puts in a very good performance as well.
Colin and Nicola are a great guest caster, all good, much like
terror the vervoids, it's pretty clear what it's doing.
Yeah, it's not convoluted at all.
I would then say attack of the cybermen.
I think, again, that despite all the continuity and the cyberman's
plan, it's pretty straightforward, the info dumps, when they do
come over with quickly, they're light and they tell you exactly
what you need to know.
There's some good characterisation of the cryons.
They're not just the bliz-bloss monsters.
We get a bit of more complex characterisation with Lytton and the
you know, the idea that a villain isn't necessarily just someone
who's evil.
I also would love the bit at the end where the doctor says, oh, you
know, maybe I need to change.
It's a pity that was never really acted upon overtly.
And of course, I then have to say terror of the vervoids, you know
I have to agree with you, Nathan.
It's a simple idea.
It's done well. well.
It's got a great guest cast.
The trial scenes.
But thankfully they don't go on too long and we just get back to
the plot.
Bonnie Langford is a breath of fresh air and we get a great new
relationship between her as Mel and Colin as the doctor.
It makes you feel bright for the future of the show.
You know, if you didn't know that we were only going to see them
together for 6 episodes.
You go, yeah, I can watch these 2 for a long time.
Uh, yeah, so, what was that?
That was Mark the Rani, Attack of the Cybermen and Tear of the
Vivoids.
All right, my top 3 are in no particular order.
Attack of the Sidemen, which I ideally love, the 2 doctors, which
I think is super Revelation, the Daleks, which I just thoroughly
enjoy.
And if I could edit out all the trial scenes from Mysterious
Planet, it would be in contention, but it's not so beautiful.
It's not.
Yeah.
So there you go.
In terms of guest stars or villains or monsters, whom has been
your favourite in this particular here of the show.
Nathan, I'm looking at you and you're going to say, Servian
Jacqueline Pierce, yes?
No, I, I, you know, I think she's pretty good, but she's doing her
usual thing.
I do think Eleanor Braun is really terrific.
So I guess it's her.
I think Martin Jarvis is good, but maybe not for the reasons that
people think.
I quite like Michael Jason as the valleyard.
He does a good job.
Even though he kind of turns into a sort of moustache twirling
villain at the end.
As for villains, I think that Sill is really good.
I think he's by far the best thing in both of the stories that
he's in.
I'm pretty much agreeing with you.
All of those.
I think you only get Sil as a sort of new villain in the Colin
Baker era.
I guess you could count Drathro.
And the Rani.
Oh, the Rani?
No, yeah, yeah, yeah.
K Tamara.
Well, I prefer this version of the Rani. and I think it's a better
performance.
So, yeah, so definitely Cademara, Serani, I think it's fantastic.
Eleanor Braun's great.
I like Jacqueline Pierce.
I know it's a shtick, but I think it's really wonderful.
Joan Sims.
I just love as Katrika.
One of my reasons for really loving that story.
You've pinpointed Michael, Jason.
I think Linda Bellium brings a lot of empathy to that particular
thankless task of a role.
Um, And a hat.
A lovely hat.
I can't go past Edgeworth. back in the twin dilemma because I
think it's a lovely performance, um, in spite of everything else.
Every story, with one exception, has really strong lead guest cast
and that one exception, of course, is um, Jeanette Crowley, as
Vina.
She's just bloody awful.
Um, the, the actress who plays cats is much better.
She needs to work on her projection a bit, but she's sympathetic
and believable in that role.
So I mean, I wouldn't say she's my favourite of era, but I do want
to point that out because I think she gets overshadowed a bit by
how rubbish Vina is.
Yeah, we've got, Morris Denim giving a great performance in a
really sub-parscript.
We've got Maurice Colburn and Brian Glover.
Oh, yeah.
In Attack of the Sidement?
Getting a bit rough, is it?
Yeah.
We've got the Cryons, especially Flast, who's locked up with the
doctor just flirting with the outrageously.
And, you know, Doctor Who doesn't often show that demonstrations
of sexuality or sensuality, let alone from an alien character.
And it's just a nice little character moment.
Martin Jarvis, of course, Nabil Shabin.
If I had to pick just one person, as much as I love K Tomara, I
would pick Nabil Shabin because not only does he create an
interesting character whom you like despite the fact he's a
horrible person.
When he comes back, he builds on that and everything you loved
about him the 1st time is back even more the 2nd time with even
more humour, like that line we singled out of, I only wish you'd
found a more attractive body, which is a great falling action
moment because we've had this horrible thing we know Perry's dead
and suddenly we cut to this joke and for once because this era
does that quite a bit.
It'll try to undercut something horrible with joke.
I think this is the only time it really, really strongly works.
Of course, you've got Cato Mara, and you've got the cast playing
George Stevenson, Lord Ravensworth, you've got Luke played by Gary
Katie, who are all good in Mark of the Rani.
The guest cast are all brilliant in the 2 doctors, even the 2
sontarians, their makeup, their masks doesn't do them justice, but
that whole bit about the loneliness of command, and I think I've
made a tactical error and all that.
That's all great.
And Astari.
I forgot about him.
Yeah, he's really good.
Actually, no one's mentioned Herbert as well.
Oh, I think it's a great performance.
Yeah.
Yeah, Herbert and Robert Ashby is the Borad.
Really great voice.
Paul Darrow is certainly memorable.
I like Vina.
I'm just going to say that people...
Is she is?
I really do like her.
I think she found Katerina's stash of Xanax somewhere in the
dressing room and that accounts for it.
Let's not forget about the lovely Janet in...
Yeah, Land of Palfrey.
She's really great.
All of the guest cast in Revelation are good.
You know, and we discussed at the time, some people don't like
Jenny Thomasson, but we all love her and we just...
We totally get the aggression and the repression that's going on
with that character.
And Clive Swift.
Like, I forgot. about him too.
There's actually a lot of really good guest cast in here.
And oh, I forgot to mention a few weeks ago when we were doing the
ultimate foe, of course.
Jeffrey Hughes turns up in the 2nd of 3 guest spots by keeping up
appearances actors.
Yeah, of an annual tradition.
Yep, Michael Jason, Linda Bellingham, uh, on a Blackman.
Uh, Joan Sims, Tom Chadbon, Roger Breeley, Patrick Reicart.
We have possibly, the best array of guest cast actors.
Consistently appearing in Doctor Who.
It's kind of J and T's strength, isn't it?
Like getting big names to agree to appear on the program.
We didn't go through this list with Pete, did we?
No, there are great guest characters and big names, I think, in
pizza era.
But not necessarily in every story.
And unlike Pete's era, we don't really have a Beryl Reed style
example here where we go, oh no, that's woefully miscast, even
though none of us think they're all wolves.
Okay.
Even though only Todd thinks, Beryl Reed, no, no, no.
No, I'm talking about the father and his cousin in between
dilemma.
Oh, yeah.
No, I won't talk for obeying it.
And...
Oh, yeah, but they're not big names. nobody cares about them.
Yes, it's correct.
That is correct.
But yet, they've they've really gone to town.
It's kind of weird because we've talked about how, in a way, they
didn't care about, they cared about making a show. with big names
that they could put on the cover of the radio times.
And I don't think Colin even got a radio times covered at any
point.
But they care enough to get these big names in.
And contrary to expectations. like we discussed with Joan Sims
Joan Sims isn't playing it like a carry-on.
Joan Sims is playing it like, no, I am a 70 year old leader of a
tribe, and I have seen some stuff go down.
I'm not an idiot.
I may be uneducated, but I'm not an idiot, and she plays it
seriously, and as a result, you believe in that world.
I mean, it's an era where the right hand does not know what the
left is doing.
But yet, such strong guest cast.
My prime pick is Nabil Shabin, because he appears twice.
And Every time you see him, and I mean from scene to scene, he
just builds and I mean, perhaps it is the kind of dedication to
performance that can only come from someone who has experienced
hardship and discrimination in his chosen profession of wanting to
be an actor and having difficulty finding roles because people
don't want to hire a disabled actor.
And On the one hand, disabled advocates may look at that
performance and go, oh, they've customers a villain.
Whereas his attitude was to create a character and to kind of go
right, if I need to be the big scary monster, I'm going to be the
scariest monster.
I'm going to turn something like laughing into something
horrible.
And I just hear other stories about Nabil Shabin acting in other
productions.
He was in.
He was in an audio visual as one of Guy Fawkes gang in the gun, in
the gun, powder plot, and there's a scene where he's either being
tortured or he's torturing someone.
And he said to them, how are we going to achieve this?
And they say, oh, well, Nabil, you know, we, um, we can do post
production now and we can add sound effects on later.
And he said, well, what does it sound like?
They said, oh, it sounds like metal clanging together and rubbing
together.
And when it came time to record the scene, he's recording it in
his wheelchair, he started ripping bits off his wheelchair and
clanging them together to make the torture implements.
And they went, that's perfect.
We'll keep that in.
That's the kind of actor Nabil Shabin is.
And as I say, I wonder if that kind of ingenuity and that kind of
interiority and characterisation comes from the fact that he would
have been told no so many times.
So when he gets a role.
He says, I'm going to show you what kind of actor I am.
For me, it goes beyond just respecting that he plays his role.
It's respecting his respect.
For what he's doing.
You touched on Big finish audios in in that, what you've just said
and we've discussed that in a previous our previous podcast.
For people out there who perhaps don't particularly warm to this
era, I think that for me, The 6 doctor audios are generally the
best. certainly the ones with Bonnie Langford, as Mel, I think, are
really well written, the ones with Evelyn, I think, generally are
great.
Collins performance is wonderful throughout them compared to all
the other doctors.
That's just me.
Um, I also like the stuff with flip and spoiler alert, Jamie and
Zoe.
Um, and so, um, Yeah, so if you don't particularly like this era
but you are into the book 2 audios, I just think that there are so
many good quality, Colin Baker ones because Big Finish really
wanted to.
And particularly Gary Russell at the beginning, really give Colin
material worthy.
Yeah, I mean, for our big finish special, last week, there, there
was one play I was going to recommend and I didn't, and that is
arrangements for war, which is a 6th doctor in the heat.
And the main reason I didn't recommend that is it, you know, it's
a brilliant play.
Um, but it's kind of the end of a character arc for them, not even
a story arc, but a character arc of the development of their
relationship.
So you really need to have heard the stories leading up to it.
But that's the thing.
If I was going to recommend one, I'd say, right, go to the big
finished page where you can now sort by character, sort by evil
and put them in chronological order.
And at the very least, go with everything from her 1st appearance
in the marrying conspiracy through to arrangements for war and see
what Colin Baker is capable of doing in the role of this doctor.
And what I find amazing is he has changed his characterisation in
those so much because he, when they started, what, 1999, he'd had
almost 15 years of people telling him what was wrong with his
character or, you know, at least in their interpretation.
And what I find interesting about Colin.
You know, we've joked a bit about him like when he stopped doing
interviews for Doctor Who magazine because the twin dilemma came
at the bottom of their poll.
Well, I think it's because he came at the bottom of their pole as
well.
But at the same time, you know, when he talks about his era now
he'll say things like, um, in my defence, the best thing about the
code was I was wearing it, looking out instead of having to look
at it.
He is incredibly self-aware of the criticisms of his era and has
sought to redress them not only for himself, but for the fans.
And despite the fact he changes his character for those audios, it
is still recognisably the same character.
And when he records a story with Nicola Bryant, he plays it in a
different way than when he records a story with Bonnie Langford or
with Maggie Stables, who plays evil and he's aware of the
character's chronology and development.
So if you listen to, I think, Chronologically speaking, his
earliest story in the Big Finnish Canon is either Davros or Year
of the Pig, which is said in season 22, He plays the character a
lot more abrasively.
Compared to we're in our, which you recommended a few weeks ago
Todd, or the marrying conspiracy where he 1st meets Evelyn.
Nathan and I were talking about the marrying conspiracy earlier
today off mic.
And he said, well, actually, you can say that.
I think that Big Finish is free to experiment because they don't
have to have a TV audience that they're appealing to.
And so having Evelyn, who's older.
Um, is great and something that we've never seen on the show, but
she's someone that Colin can't bully.
You know, she's older, like older than Colin in the sense that, you
know, she she looks older than him, you know, if she seems older.
And so she won't wear his crap, you know, and it's nice, you know
I think they have a good relationship.
I mean, you said that he attempts to kind of be mean to her in the
Marion conspiracy and she kind of slaps it down. exactly.
I think she bribes him with cake.
And that's the, they, they also have this master stroker.
They introduce Evelyn who loves baking chocolate cake.
And at the beginning of the wrong doctors, which starts with a pre
credit scene where Evelyn's just left, and the doctor realises
that now he now he has to go meet Mel for the 1st time.
It's implied that the reason he's larger when he meets Mel is
because he's just spent 5 years travelling with Evelyn having a
chocolate cake every day.
Humour.
But also fans, you know, we need to invent a reason that the 6th
doctor got a bit fat.
Very true.
We're almost leaving this era into the next.
And I always ask the question, you know, what are your thoughts at
the current time of the forthcoming doctor or era and what perhaps
you hope to get out of the experience of of watching the era?
I think that this is the 1st injection of new creative kind of
lifeblood into the show.
Um, and, you know, while Eric Saywood had difficulty finding new
writers.
Andrew Carmel doesn't, and he finds a whole stable of new
writers.
And the show starts to be more grounded.
There's more things set on earth.
I think Earth in the recent past becomes a place that it goes.
It starts to ditch the continuity staff.
So, uh, next season has the Rani and Sablom glitz.
Um, but the Rani is a kind of a holdover from the Colin Baker, era
in season 24, um, and Glitz doesn't really overbalance the story
that he finds himself in.
And you know, it doesn't, it doesn't work immediately.
I think it doesn't start working immediately.
Um, but, There is a freshness to it. visually.
And it starts doing things that it hasn't done before or hasn't
done for a long time.
And so it comes as a bit of a relief.
And then when I'm expecting, I think that seasons 25 and 26 are as
good as anything that the program's done, and there are some
really extraordinary stories in there.
And, you know, because no one cares about it.
It's free to be sophisticated and subversive and stuff like that.
Hmm.
I'm going to try to answer this question as if it's December 1986
and I've just finished watching Trial of a Time Lord, and what do
I want for the future?
Um, Ice Warriors.
Well, actually, I'm thinking that something I've really enjoyed
about trial is that.
Although we've had time lords, et cetera.
For the main plots we've had, there hasn't been a massive reliance
on, you know, bringing back the cybermen to try and negate the
events of these 2 stories from the 1960s, while the Daleks are
building a food plant, and other Daleks turn up, and are mean to
them, and someone shoots off someone else's hand.
So I kind of just want stories that work on their own without me
having to know.
A previous story I watched years ago.
I'm liking the emphasis on character relationships and humour.
I'm hoping that continues.
I'm liking the diverse ideas and the diverse settings, so I'm
hoping we get more diversity in that regard.
And yeah, it the show is feeling fun again.
The last 2 seasons before this one, so the last season of Davidson
the 1st season of Colin Baker, I felt, with the increased level of
violence, that why, why is anyone still travelling?
on this show where all these horrible things happen.
You know, Tegan kind of mentioned it and the doctor says I must
change my ways and then he doesn't.
Whereas in this season, even though there has been certainly
violence visited upon Perry.
Mainly, except for that 10 minutes at the end of that story, it
has been more fun like it used to be during, well, during the 60s
during the 70s, during the beginning of Peter Davidson.
So I'm hoping that fun continues.
So yeah, more fun, less reliance on the history.
And more, yeah, more character growth would be what I was hoping
for in the future.
And not another 14 episode story.
Well, agreed there.
Well, listen, this is my last regular podcast until survival.
I will be back doing a couple of commentaries, I'm sure, in
between time.
So I'm not trying to avoid this era.
I really think shows like remembrance of the Daleks, 3 quarters of
great show in the galaxy, having this patrol curse of fenneric, are
some of the best Doctor Who's of all time.
And those fighters even better than that.
And I, and I really enjoy despite problems.
Silver Nemesis and Battlefield.
So the last 8 stories of Doctor Who.
In the JNT era under Andrew Carpenter, I like the 1st 8 stories of
Doctor Who under JNT and Christopher H.
Bidmead.
Blockbus.
Sorry.
I think there's a lot of really great stuff going on.
And it goes back to what you're saying, Nathan, about next year, is
that there is a new approach and a freshness and there's, there's
there's a goal and a target, and I think they miss it a lot next
year.
But you have to miss something in order to get it and they get
it.
I used to vilify season 24 to the absolute hilt.
And my attitude to it has changed quite a lot over the years.
I still think there are huge problems in what appears on screen.
But there are aspects to it that I do like.
I like Bellage.
I like Burton, the camp leader in Dodger Banner. one of my
favourite characters of all time.
Um, And I like Tabby and Tilda.
And I think that script and that book, uh, Paradise Towers is one
of the freshest, uh, stories ever.
But not what appears on screen.
And my overriding feeling, From the time, is that, up to this
point over the last 2 years of the show, my parents really tried
to stop me watching Doctor Who, stopped me buying Doctor Who, a
magazine subscription from the news agency.
They knew what would happen.
They knew that you would end up guesting on a long-running
podcasting program. sometime in the future and they were trying to
save you from it.
Well, what happened in this season?
My father actually sat down with me in one of the early episodes
of the season to try and bond with me, right?
And I sat there embarrassed by what I was seeing on screen and I
turned to my father and I said, this isn't very good.
You don't have to watch it with me.
And that's the overwhelming feeling.
Emotion that I get when I watch the 1st 3 stories of this season
and I have to fight against that, right?
And you've seen me fight against it.
Nathan, you've mentioned a number of times that you've seen me
enjoy, um, Jolton the Man, and I'm not going to deny that the last
time I watched it, I liked it a lot more than I'd ever liked it
before.
And it's this, this change behind the scenes with Andrew and a
freshness of approach and something new that opens it up.
You know, I don't want another 14 episode season where everything
seems to be continuity in upon itself, you need that freshness.
So the biggest challenge for me is next year to see, what do I
really like?
What do I think of Sylvester next year?
I've never considered him to be my favourite doctor like at times
I've considered Patrick or John or Tom or Colin.
But I'm really hoping that when I do sit down and watch next
season, and this is the 1st time I have to say this is that I
actually haven't watched ahead.
Right?
Every other time we've been doing these podcasts, I'm usually half
a season to a season ahead, but this time I just, I just stopped
and I just, I can't do it.
I've got to be in the right frame of mind to watch what happens
next.
I'm hoping by what you guys say, because I'm sure you're going to
enjoy it much more than what I do, but will it change my opinion
you know?
and I think you have to be open to that.
So yeah, so I'm looking forward to the change, getting rid of Eric
Seywood, um, a lot.
And, you know, we'll see.
But before we finish, there are 3 people we need to talk about, and
that is Bonnie Langford, Nicola Bryant, and Colin Baker, and just
briefly, the 2 companions in his era, what they bring and what you
feel now that you've watched the era.
Um, I'm quite happy to start.
Actually, if I may.
Perry.
Okay, 1st of all.
Colin Nicola and Bonnie.
All play the parts to the absolute best of their ability.
There's no slacking going on at all.
Perry's character is very cynical.
And that works really well with Pete.
Like when he's breathless and enthusiastic in Andrazani, and she's
the one warning about danger and calling him a pain and making
jokes about his glass blowing, et cetera, et cetera.
That really works.
The problem becomes when the early 6th doctor is quite cynical as
well.
So they're trying to out cynical each other and what'll happen
is.
A lot of the arguments between them arise from the fact that he's
being cynical, but for a moment she's not being cynical.
And so they fight.
Whereas when you look at the mysterious planet, when she's being
cynical, he's doing that thing of not really listening to her, and
that makes it funny because he's being kind of warm and silly.
And then you get that great scene where she's distraught, despite
the fact her world is perfectly safe, and this is long after she
would be dead anyway.
And rather than be cynical back at her, the doctor attempts to
comfort her as he would a child.
And when that doesn't work, he then adopts a more cynical
pragmatic viewpoint, but not cruelly, you know, he tries to make a
joke with her and she brushes it off and he says, look, you know
that your world is safe.
You know that this doesn't matter and you know that nothing lasts
forever.
So he treats her like an adult in that moment.
And I think that's the evolution of their characters in that at
1st they're kind of being cynical children at each other.
And then they become cynical adults.
But it's also a problem for the show because compare that to 2
actors who didn't get along behind the scenes, Tom Baker and
Louise Jameson, in the invisible enemy when they're going through
the doctor's brain and they have that beautiful bit where they're
standing in front of the wind machine and talking about travelling
into the land of dreams and fantasies.
It's silly, but that is inviting us to go on adventure.
And again, I don't blame Colin and Nicola.
I think I think they do the best they can with the direction
they're given, and there are some lovely moments of charm between
them in that 1st season when they're when their characters
synchronise, and they're not just being cynical and bitchy at each
other.
Then when Bonnie comes along.
There's no chance for cynicism.
But again, the doctor then gets to be cynical with her and she
brushes it off.
And I think that's the thing.
If you're going to have one character who's being cynical, the
other character has to be open and you can flip that occasionally
but having 2 characters be cynical doesn't work.
But again, Colin, Bonnie, Nicola.
All incredibly strong performances, I don't know if this is the
case for Bonnie, but certainly with Colin and Nicola, they've
spoken about how much they considered their performance and how
much they thought about it.
I haven't heard Bonnie talk about her performance that much.
So I'm not saying she hasn't done that, but I just don't know
about it.
I have said this before, but I think there's a problem with having
just the doctor and one female companion.
I don't like that conception of the show.
I think it's too small a regular cast, and there's something
lonely about it.
We kind of think that that's the normal state of affairs for the
show, but of course it isn't.
It's not that at all.
Just maybe for a few seasons.
Um, you know you're right.
When does it happen?
Because you've got all the unit people.
And then, then you have got Sarah and the doctor for a little
bit.
You've got Lena and the doctor for a bit, but then you've got K9
in there as well as a 3rd mix.
So it really doesn't happen that much.
Even in the new series, you know, you've got the families, you've
got Rory, you've got Jack, you've got Mickey, you've got Daddy.
You've got Nardol now.
I'm actually really looking forward to that because I've seen
behind the scenes videos of Pearl and Matt mucking about with the
TARDIS console and they actually have a really good back and forth
with each other.
So I'm hoping that translates onto screen.
But yeah, I agree with you, Nathan.
You need 2 people who can gang up on the doctor.
The 1st time I really felt it was when Pete regenerates into Colin
and the only person who witnesses that, and the only person that
it matters to is Perry, and no one else sees it.
Um, And so the, It makes me a little bit sad somehow.
It makes the world smaller.
And we don't get to see them relate to anyone really other than
guests stars and each other.
And so I think that's a problem with the show at the moment.
And it's a reaction, obviously, to how John Nathan Turner started
the show with a big cast.
I think that Perry is, A badly conceived character played with
considerable charm by Nicola.
I think that the previous for female character, Tegan, who, you
know, was Bolshy and funny and stood up to the doctor and all of
that, you know, that she was great, and we replace her with
someone who, um, is, um, you know, beautiful young woman who is
menaced and manhandled and mistreated by men and she becomes more
of a kind of perils appalling.
Yeah, more than anyone since Victoria, really.
And she certainly has a worse time of any other companion.
Like hers is the life that's kind of destroyed by her time with
the doctor.
With Mel, again, I think Bonnie Langford has considerable charm.
I think she does a good job towards the end of season 24, but she
suffers from the fact, as I said, a couple of weeks ago that 9 out
of her 1st 10 episodes are written by Pip and Jane Baker.
She's playing it theatrical, and so all of her lines come across
as really terribly artificial, but I think she's terribly
charming.
I think Colin is saddled with a ill considered conception of the
character, which he manages more or less to shake off completely
during his short run.
And I think that character wasn't designed to play to Colin's
strengths and the Colin's strengths are that he can be terribly
funny and silly and rather sweet and the whole idea of an
unlikeable doctor, which, you know, I guess is what we're kind of
going through at the moment, that doesn't have to not work.
I think there's a lot to be said for the way that Peter Capaldi
plays the part.
But I don't think it's a good fit for Colin, and I think that it's
Eric Sayward, in some sense, is trying to undermine the whole idea
of a hero, but he's too cynical to believe in heroes, and he
doesn't want the doctor to be a hero.
And so, you know, he slumps in a chair when they run out of zight
on 7 or completely fails to solve the problem that they find
themselves in in a whole bunch of stories and stuff like that.
So he's really hampered.
He has some strength, but he's really hampered by the role he's
given.
And the coach?
Horrific.
All right, well.
Something up, perhaps, for me, at the end of all this, I do agree
with a lot of what both of you have said.
I think Nicola does a wonderful job in a role where Perry is put
in peril and manhandled and the season 23 Well, at least
mysterious planet version is fabulous and she gets to show her
acting chops.
So thank you, Nicola.
I really like Bonnie with Colin much more than what will happen
next year where I think the theatrical performance really almost
destroys 2 stories for me.
And that's no, I'm not wanting to have a go at Bonnie.
I think her enthusiasm cannot be discounted.
It's a pity that she doesn't get more shows on real earth.
What I find so amazing about Colin is his status as an ambassador
for the show, like whenever there's a new doctor and he's
interviewed, he talks about how happy he's going to be to see Matt
Smith in the role, how happy he's going to be to see Peter Capaldi
in the role, considering how he was treated, there is no, he owes
nothing to the show.
He really owes nothing to the show.
I remember seeing ads that he was going to be at conventions in
the early 90s.
So he never went off being involved with the show.
You know, in 1989 he came back and did the stage show, the
ultimate adventure.
You know, he took over as 2nd choice after John Pertley and, you
know, didn't mind at all, didn't complain.
Compare that to Christopher Eccleston.
Who has said in recent years he had a bad time on the show.
He didn't want it the way that Keith Bowick treated extras and
that's why he quit the show and that's why he doesn't do
conventions and that's why he won't come back and do the show.
And the thing is, I'm not criticising him for taking that stand of
defending someone lower than him in the pecking order.
But it's like, you know what?
When you have a bad time, when you have a bad experience.
There are multiple ways you can deal with it.
And Collin's way of dealing with it is to separate the horrible
treatment he had at the hands of the BBC from the love that fans
have for the show.
And that's the thing.
Colin will turn up at a convention, probably knowing that, hey
maybe 10% of the audience hate me and hate my interpretation, I'm
not here for them.
I'm here because you guys love the show.
And he's very, very proud of his role.
I made the joke earlier that he didn't get interviewed for Dwim
for he refused to have anything to do with Dwim for ages because
he went to the bottom of the poll.
But at the same time, when you've been kicked for like almost 30
years about how you played the role, maybe that's a bit
understandable.
But the thing is, he did still come back and he just does the
audios and he does the conventions and he does the charity work.
And he does it with a big smile on his face because he knows that
as much as he's criticised.
He's also loved.
And I love Colin, and I love his doctor.
And, you know, Out of Everyone who's played it, including Tom
Baker, including David Tennant, I think he loves being on Doctor
Who the most.
Colin, you know, I just got to say thank you.
I just.
No other doctor, I think, has had to put up with the stuff behind
the scenes and decisions made out of his control, and He came
along at the right time, and I hope one day Colin does listen to
this, and we know that he's never going to win best Dr. Paul's.
Doesn't matter.
Those polls mean nothing to me.
I like them all.
And, you know, Colin, you'll always have my vote.
We're saying a very premature goodbye to the Baker now, as our
power systems have been depleted, and we're making an emergency
landing on the planet Excelon.
I'm sure everything will be absolutely fine.
I can't wait to try the resorts there.
Do come back next week for our commentary on Death to the Daleks.
I've heard that I heard they have a great steam room.
Until then, you can find us online at flightthroughentirety.sexy
flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and at FTE podcast
on Twitter over on Bondfinger.
We will shortly be welcoming Pierce Brosnan to the role of James
Bond in Golden Eye, but until then, we have all preceding Bond
films, including Casino Royale, 1967, and never say never again.
You can find that on Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and
iTunes and Bondfinger cast on Twitter.
Until next week, may none of your Gumblejack be eaten by
Spielsnapes.
Thank you very much for listening.
Good night.
See you at survival.
That was Flight Through Entirety with Todd BLB, Nathan Bottomley
and Brendan Jones. theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.
This episode, Never Going to Win, was reported on the 15th of
April, 2017.
Next episode will be released on June 18th.
We'd like to dedicate this episode to the memory of Maggie's
Staples. who helped many fans appreciate Colin Baker's doctor in a
whole new way.
OK, we've got a field three hours.
Hello.
The Colin Baker retrospective, um, 15th of April.
I don't I don't know if I have an intro.
You know, this is our sea devil's moment.
What do you mean?
our 1st one recorded out of order.
Oh, yes.
This is going out after ones that we've yet to record, which we
can't say because we, if I include this as the tag at its point.
Oh, but this is going to be after those.
So now we can say, because we haven't yet recorded time in
Corporated or the big finished audio thing.
That's okay.
Are we talking about the big finish audio?
I think we can.
I think we can, yeah, definitely.
Yeah, but just then I'll have been memory wiped between last
week's episode of this week's episode.
Well, you can just talk about the general, I hope.
God, what am I going to say?
We're the only Doctor Who podcast coming at you live through your
ear holes.
Do you remember that?
I think I've said that before.
That's what you say in the 1st episode.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.