WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 13:51:17 1 00:00:51.000 --> 00:01:01.740 Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast, which takes the form of a 327 subsection 9 Appendix 3 conversation. 2 00:01:01.799 --> 00:01:02.340 I'm Brendan. 3 00:01:02.399 --> 00:01:05.760 I'm Nathan I'm a tatty old pool cleaner for this one. 4 00:01:06.299 --> 00:01:10.620 And we are going to visit the Great Pool in the sky. 5 00:01:10.680 --> 00:01:12.239 It's Paradise Towers. 6 00:01:25.260 --> 00:01:27.060 Well, here we are. 7 00:01:27.180 --> 00:01:28.920 I managed to watch it. 8 00:01:28.980 --> 00:01:30.719 It was one of those ones we broke out of the cellophone. 9 00:01:30.780 --> 00:01:32.280 It's actually pretty good. 10 00:01:32.340 --> 00:01:45.540 This is one where there are some production problems that kind of get in the way of the sort of full realisation of what's going on, but the script, and by extension, the novelisation are actually both incredibly clever. 11 00:01:45.599 --> 00:01:48.900 It's League of Gentlemen Light, isn't it, before League of Gentlemen? 12 00:01:48.959 --> 00:01:49.980 Yeah, I guess so. 13 00:01:50.040 --> 00:01:53.879 It does have that sort of weird, dark Gothic thing going on. 14 00:01:53.939 --> 00:01:56.340 Um, an all local. 15 00:01:56.459 --> 00:01:58.439 Very, very local. 16 00:01:58.500 --> 00:02:06.180 And in fact, it is a Doctor Who story set in a lot of space corridors, which I've complained about sort of quite a lot. 17 00:02:06.239 --> 00:02:08.460 I think we'll get it again at the end of the season. 18 00:02:08.520 --> 00:02:15.060 It's a lot of space corridors, but it manages to do something different from what we've had for a while. 19 00:02:15.120 --> 00:02:17.400 And we've observed before. 20 00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:31.800 I think it's fairly well known that this is the 1st Doctor Who story for a very, very long time that hasn't had any returning elements that doesn't really reference anything that's happened before that can just be understood on its own terms. 21 00:02:31.860 --> 00:02:33.479 Corridors don't count. 22 00:02:33.539 --> 00:02:34.860 No that's right. 23 00:02:34.979 --> 00:02:41.400 This is actually the 1st claustrophobic use of real, the real sense of isolation in corridors. 24 00:02:41.460 --> 00:02:51.659 And again, as we went on and on and on and on and on last episode, thanks for listening, that the sense of the now is very much at the front of this. 25 00:02:51.719 --> 00:02:56.400 This is a tower block and this is about, we're going to see this in rows, aren't we? 26 00:02:56.460 --> 00:02:58.500 Yeah, it's much more kindly. 27 00:02:58.560 --> 00:02:59.159 Yeah. 28 00:02:59.219 --> 00:03:13.919 And so it's a decaying tower block with all of these promises with a glossy brochure with, you know, promises of an exciting future and happiness and achievement and it's all gone to hell and it's inhabited by warring tribes. 29 00:03:13.979 --> 00:03:19.500 Do you think this was J and T having a go back at Jonathan Powell and maybe Doctor Who Bulletin? 30 00:03:19.560 --> 00:03:24.960 You know, I think that J and T is one of the least political producers that we've ever had. 31 00:03:25.080 --> 00:03:25.919 A political. 32 00:03:25.979 --> 00:03:39.300 Yeah, and and given that combination with Eric Saywood, who was also not interested in doing politics, just meant that we had a Doctor Who that supported the status quo and really didn't engage with the outside world. 33 00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:54.659 And this story, I think, is a type of story that Doctor Who has done before, and I think we were thinking about the macraterra fairly recently, where it's not set on the planet Blizzbloss. 34 00:03:54.719 --> 00:03:56.159 We don't know what planet it's on. 35 00:03:56.219 --> 00:03:57.539 It's not set on a planet. 36 00:03:57.599 --> 00:03:59.879 It's not set on a spaceship or a space station. 37 00:03:59.939 --> 00:04:06.960 It's set in a big building, and that building, we given no idea where it is really how it got here. 38 00:04:07.080 --> 00:04:14.219 And there is a sort of backstory that doesn't really work and doesn't add up. 39 00:04:14.280 --> 00:04:21.240 And I think it's partly because the ages of all of the people who are cast are sort of all wrong. 40 00:04:21.300 --> 00:04:23.939 So it doesn't add up with what we're told about the backstory. 41 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:28.319 But that just doesn't matter because openly allegorical. 42 00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:46.860 And the idea is that we're illustrating something about society by having an artificial and an openly artificial situation created where no one has kind of normal names, you know, people have titles and stuff or they're called fire escape or bin liner or whatever. 43 00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:54.060 And so it's really just saying something about contemporary society. 44 00:04:54.180 --> 00:05:07.800 Stephen Wyatt, who wrote this will do a similar thing with the greatest show in the galaxy, and I think Russell T. Davies will really bring this approach to its apotheosis in gridlock. 45 00:05:07.860 --> 00:05:08.519 Have a drink. 46 00:05:08.579 --> 00:05:12.120 And gridlock again is openly unrealistic. 47 00:05:12.180 --> 00:05:16.560 I still have friends who complain that often, I think it's superb. 48 00:05:16.620 --> 00:05:20.939 And, and, you know, I have friends who complain, no one's going to drive in a car for 20 years. 49 00:05:20.939 --> 00:05:23.939 What are you doing now? 50 00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:30.360 I would say that, again, this one might have slipped onto the radar. 51 00:05:30.420 --> 00:05:53.579 I actually think it's got to do with things like lighting and not to do with casting at all or said, although there are some questions there and maybe Nicholas Mallet after Mysterious Planet, although he said he actually ran away from and quit on a job, which directors should never do, but he quit on a job doing a German mini series filmed in Berlin, written by Pip and Jane Baker to come back and do this. 52 00:05:53.639 --> 00:05:54.540 Go on. 53 00:05:54.600 --> 00:05:57.480 How do you feel this fits in? 54 00:05:57.540 --> 00:06:00.180 I think it's directly after time in the Rani? 55 00:06:00.240 --> 00:06:13.019 It is really getting straight into the critique of modern life in a very dark and upfront way that kids can recognise and that older people can recognise and it's very much the Judge Dread 2018 universe. 56 00:06:13.079 --> 00:06:15.600 Yeah, which is, again, what he's doing in gridlock. 57 00:06:15.660 --> 00:06:36.540 And so what you have here is on a surface level is a sort of critique of modernism in the sense of a building is a machine rather than a machine for living, rather than something for human beings, the architect creates the building, but doesn't want people to spoil it by living in it. you know who said that? 58 00:06:36.600 --> 00:06:39.899 Le Corbusier, Pierre Generay. 59 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:41.160 Do you know what else he said? 60 00:06:41.220 --> 00:06:43.259 That's not even in the architecture textbooks. 61 00:06:43.319 --> 00:06:46.319 You've actually got to go in and read his stuff, which I had to do at school. 62 00:06:46.379 --> 00:06:58.019 He was one of the progenitors along with the Bauhaus school that they went into Europe, you know, and it's actually the reason we had this style of building is in fact the Nazi Party. 63 00:06:58.079 --> 00:07:05.639 It is, in fact, the excising of the Jewish population of Europe. that these architects came to America and came to the UK. 64 00:07:05.699 --> 00:07:15.180 But, um, Le Corb was very famous for saying, the whole design of tower blocks is to get people off the streets and to quell nascent Marxism. 65 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:31.620 The principle, and the reason he got early government funding is that if you isolate people onto flaws, with doors that don't face each other, with nowhere to gather, with no marketplace, they won't be able to have political inclusion. 66 00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:33.540 Yeah, they won't be able to organise. 67 00:07:33.660 --> 00:07:35.579 And so this is a story. 68 00:07:35.579 --> 00:07:36.600 Utterly deliberate. 69 00:07:36.660 --> 00:07:45.779 Yeah, well, it's a story of a society that's fragmented into tribes that are all preying on one another and that are all hostile to one another. 70 00:07:45.839 --> 00:07:48.000 And J.G. Ballard. 71 00:07:48.060 --> 00:07:48.959 Exactly. 72 00:07:49.019 --> 00:07:50.699 And that's the other thing. 73 00:07:50.759 --> 00:07:52.860 High rise, which I won't pretend to have read. 74 00:07:52.920 --> 00:07:53.819 I did. 75 00:07:53.879 --> 00:07:54.899 I did back in the day. 76 00:07:54.959 --> 00:07:55.500 It's okay. 77 00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:56.399 It's just this story. 78 00:07:56.459 --> 00:08:03.120 I liked Empire of the Sun, which is the reason he was getting nodded to, and that was a film around this time that Spielberg, and that's when Ballad. 79 00:08:03.180 --> 00:08:04.560 Ballard was a fruitcake. 80 00:08:04.620 --> 00:08:05.879 He was like a Samuel R. 81 00:08:05.879 --> 00:08:06.420 Delaney. 82 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:15.120 Really, Wacko was doing a whole lot of fun stuff, not just mushroom results. to, you know, to really, really, but it's good. 83 00:08:15.180 --> 00:08:16.439 It's worth reading if you like this story. 84 00:08:16.500 --> 00:08:20.879 I suggest we should all be looking at the things that were going on around this era because it's very rich. 85 00:08:21.000 --> 00:08:30.959 And so very simply the story is that those people learn to work together and organise against a murderous authority figure. 86 00:08:31.019 --> 00:08:45.539 You know, someone who has created this society, given it the shape that it has, and then sets about massacring everyone, and the people all join together and defeat their oppressors with the doctor's encouragement. 87 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:48.360 And I think it's classic, it's terrific. 88 00:08:48.419 --> 00:08:54.840 It's in the tradition of the sun makers, whether the doctor arrives and an oppressive society is overthrown within a day. 89 00:08:54.899 --> 00:08:58.919 And it's, you know, spectacularly angry and fabulous. 90 00:08:58.980 --> 00:09:03.120 And it's not without its flaws, but I think it's really terrific. 91 00:09:03.179 --> 00:09:11.940 Yeah, it's funny for me because I grew up in Campbelltown, which has a lot of public housing, social housing. 92 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:14.399 It's not in the form of tower blocks out there. 93 00:09:14.460 --> 00:09:19.860 It's in the form of these whole cul-de-sacs full of little town. 94 00:09:19.919 --> 00:09:20.519 Ramsey Street. 95 00:09:20.580 --> 00:09:21.120 Yeah. 96 00:09:21.840 --> 00:09:32.220 But when I went to school, I was, I was from a different area from this, it still had some public housing, but it was mostly private housing. 97 00:09:32.279 --> 00:09:43.740 And there were people who looked down on the people living in the social housing and even around ads where I went to school. 98 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:48.120 It was roughly, I would say, 70% social housing and 30% private housing. 99 00:09:48.179 --> 00:09:54.960 But if you said you came from there, it was assumed you lived in social housing and therefore your family was poor and this sat the other. 100 00:09:55.019 --> 00:09:57.899 Now for us as kids, most of us didn't buy into that. 101 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:10.980 It was parents, it was people on the parents and citizens committee who were overruling people on the parents and citizens committee who lived in these houses because, oh, no, you shouldn't have a say in the uniforms. 102 00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:13.320 You shouldn't have a say in what the school spends money on this. 103 00:10:13.379 --> 00:10:16.559 And yeah, I only found out in the years afterwards. 104 00:10:16.620 --> 00:10:28.620 And also, I did find out while I was there because one of my best friends, lived in a privately owned house, in this area and his family were really looked down on. 105 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:34.980 And yeah, no, no one deserves to be really looked down on for that reason, but it's that kind of thing. 106 00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:37.980 You've got the caretakers looking down on everyone. 107 00:10:38.039 --> 00:10:47.340 You've got the resis looking down on the kangs and you've got the kangs who know that the caretakers and the resis are corrupt, but no one will believe them. 108 00:10:47.820 --> 00:10:56.940 And again, it's, yeah, it's pitting everyone against each other within this environment so they don't notice the evil that's living underneath them. 109 00:10:57.000 --> 00:10:59.580 Much like modern media. 110 00:10:59.639 --> 00:11:01.500 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 111 00:11:01.500 --> 00:11:02.220 Very much so. 112 00:11:02.279 --> 00:11:12.120 And again, critical theory was had already assumed that that's the base of riding up until this period, this mid-80s period that people were consuming pap. 113 00:11:12.179 --> 00:11:23.279 Warhol said it when he famously said, you know, if we just feed a tube from there, from their fundaments, just diet pink, put flavouring in it and put it in your mouth, and that's modern culture. 114 00:11:23.279 --> 00:11:32.100 And I think also the queer message continues through this story as well because, you know, the kangs are all girls. 115 00:11:32.159 --> 00:11:35.820 You don't see any young men of their age, except for pecs. 116 00:11:35.879 --> 00:11:37.559 And I think... 117 00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:51.120 Plus, I think, you know, you were talking about the chronology of this story, Nathan, it's like, you know, this story might work if Pex was in his 30s and the gangs were in their very early 20s to late teens and the war started 15 years ago. 118 00:11:51.179 --> 00:11:59.759 So, you know, Pex could have gone because he was 16, but the Kangs couldn't go because they were 2 or 3 because, you know, you don't see any women in their 30s. 119 00:11:59.820 --> 00:12:03.840 So presumably the women who were of fighting age went off to fight the war as well. 120 00:12:03.899 --> 00:12:05.580 No, I mean, it doesn't work. 121 00:12:05.700 --> 00:12:08.039 It's the thinnest possible sort of premise. 122 00:12:08.100 --> 00:12:14.700 And once you start casting, you know, that pretty young caretaker in episode one who gets killed, like why wasn't he offered the war? 123 00:12:14.759 --> 00:12:16.559 I mean, it doesn't work, really. 124 00:12:16.620 --> 00:12:17.580 Exactly. 125 00:12:17.639 --> 00:12:19.139 But it's not meant to. 126 00:12:19.259 --> 00:12:19.980 No. 127 00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:23.519 And, you know, I think Tilda and Tabby are very clearly coded as queer. 128 00:12:23.580 --> 00:12:26.100 You know, they're they're 2 old ladies living together. 129 00:12:26.580 --> 00:12:30.419 Nathan will like them because they're cannibals. 130 00:12:30.899 --> 00:12:34.259 And Tilda's clearly the feeder because... 131 00:12:34.259 --> 00:12:37.740 No, I'm not and I'm not... 132 00:12:38.220 --> 00:12:41.820 I am not saying that in terms of, you know, tabby's bigger. 133 00:12:41.879 --> 00:12:45.179 I'm saying that in terms of we only see tabby eating. 134 00:12:45.539 --> 00:12:54.360 Like when there's the scene with the rat, Tilda actually makes this little snide comment that she didn't have much to eat of it because Tabby had the rest. 135 00:12:54.419 --> 00:12:57.240 But, you know, she's just trying to preserve her own safety. 136 00:12:58.980 --> 00:13:01.200 It's so clever. 137 00:13:01.259 --> 00:13:01.740 Yeah. 138 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:05.159 And I think also they're a little bit of a pastiche of the Golden Girls. 139 00:13:05.220 --> 00:13:07.259 The Golden Girls were popular at this time. 140 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:09.720 You're certainly wearing a lot of nylon, aren't they? 141 00:13:09.779 --> 00:13:13.440 I think they're, yes, as much a pastiche of Coronation Street. 142 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:14.580 Oh, yeah. 143 00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:15.000 Yeah. 144 00:13:15.059 --> 00:13:30.659 That cannibalism cliffhanger, the cliffhanger at the end of episode 2 must be actually one of my favourite cliffhangers ever where Mel's being threatened by a toasting fork and she's got like a crocheted knee rug over her face and she's screaming and things. 145 00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:32.460 And it's also beautifully set up. 146 00:13:32.580 --> 00:13:36.179 Richard, couldn't you imagine that happening to Tara King? 147 00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:38.399 I mean, really, that sort of Avengers moment. 148 00:13:38.460 --> 00:13:41.700 That actually, you can imagine that happening in homicide and old lace. 149 00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:54.000 The Avengers episode that was cobbled together out of a failed Tara King pilot. and there's mother telling the story of Steve and Tara to his 2 old arts who greet him with handguns and they'd say, oh, no, they're presents. 150 00:13:54.059 --> 00:13:54.840 We're not about to shoot you. 151 00:13:54.899 --> 00:13:55.379 Really? 152 00:13:55.440 --> 00:14:01.019 Because it is, in itself, a pesticional homage to those old Hollywood horrors. 153 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:03.960 It's properly funny and it's well set up too. 154 00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:10.559 But it's also touching on the fact that there were pensioners freezing in the 80s and starving, literally, because of that just cards. 155 00:14:10.620 --> 00:14:13.500 And now, Mr. Cameron and Miss May. 156 00:14:13.559 --> 00:14:16.980 So I do think, however, there are production problems. 157 00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:20.340 Oh, the lighting's a hell of a lot better. 158 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:24.480 Those beautiful bits with silver illuminated from behind. 159 00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:26.820 They've turned the lights down. 160 00:14:26.879 --> 00:14:28.620 You know, we Mallet got that. 161 00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:33.299 He said, no, he wanted to redress the mistakes, the really obvious mistakes it made in. 162 00:14:33.299 --> 00:14:33.840 I mean, yeah. 163 00:14:33.899 --> 00:14:36.840 It doesn't get all the way to the casting, though, does it? 164 00:14:36.899 --> 00:14:38.039 No, so... 165 00:14:38.100 --> 00:14:39.659 Well, I think the music is terrible. 166 00:14:39.779 --> 00:14:40.740 Oh thank you. 167 00:14:40.980 --> 00:14:45.600 Back to my bet noir, my black Betty, which is Kath McCulloch. 168 00:14:45.659 --> 00:14:46.919 Have you heard the David Snell? 169 00:14:46.980 --> 00:14:47.340 score? 170 00:14:47.460 --> 00:14:48.840 Yeah, I don't like that very much. 171 00:14:49.320 --> 00:14:49.679 Don't you? 172 00:14:49.740 --> 00:14:50.700 I think it's a hell of a lot better. 173 00:14:50.759 --> 00:14:53.399 Yeah, I do think it is better, but it is a bit atonal. 174 00:14:53.519 --> 00:14:58.799 It's kind of like he's heard Dudley Simpson and that's the last Doctor Who score that he's heard. 175 00:14:59.460 --> 00:15:04.500 It isn't very good, but it is sort of striving to be sort of atmospheric. 176 00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:06.299 So I think the music's a problem. 177 00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:17.879 I think some of the performances, I mean, they're doing sort of broad kids TV and, you know, maybe that works given the sort of hyper reality of kind of the premise. 178 00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:18.960 I don't know. 179 00:15:19.019 --> 00:15:23.399 And I do think that Richard Briars is terrible. 180 00:15:23.460 --> 00:15:24.840 What do you think, Brendan? 181 00:15:24.899 --> 00:15:25.799 No, I agree. 182 00:15:25.860 --> 00:15:26.879 Richard Bryce is terrible. 183 00:15:26.940 --> 00:15:30.000 And if you watch, not in general, just in this. 184 00:15:30.059 --> 00:15:32.820 I really want to disagree, but no, his wife. 185 00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:39.960 Like, you know, everything else everything else I've ever seen him in, especially The Good Life, of course, Monarch of the Glen. 186 00:15:40.019 --> 00:15:40.620 He is brilliant. 187 00:15:40.679 --> 00:15:41.519 He is a great actor. 188 00:15:41.580 --> 00:15:44.100 But when you watch the making of on DVD. 189 00:15:44.159 --> 00:15:47.279 You find out why he's terrible in this and it's because he treated it like a joke. 190 00:15:47.340 --> 00:15:48.360 Yeah, he did. 191 00:15:48.419 --> 00:15:53.340 He was playing the very last big sitcom he'd done in the... 192 00:15:53.399 --> 00:15:54.840 I'm just trying to remember what it was called. 193 00:15:54.899 --> 00:15:57.659 Um, ever decreasing circles. 194 00:15:57.779 --> 00:16:00.840 So the show he'd just done. played it exactly the same way. 195 00:16:00.899 --> 00:16:02.039 Yeah. 196 00:16:02.100 --> 00:16:09.480 And I think part of the problem is he says in his interview on the DVD that the chief caretaker is a little Hitler. 197 00:16:09.539 --> 00:16:13.679 And I just remember seeing on Twitter at some and again, I apologise. 198 00:16:13.740 --> 00:16:23.820 I didn't save the tweet, so I can't remember who it was, but someone I follow on Twitter, who is Jewish, just came out with Richard Briars, how dare you? 199 00:16:23.879 --> 00:16:25.559 The caretaker is not Hitler. 200 00:16:25.620 --> 00:16:27.120 You know, Hitler was a monster. 201 00:16:27.179 --> 00:16:28.440 The caretaker is a bureaucrat. 202 00:16:28.500 --> 00:16:29.879 Hitler wasn't a bureaucrat. 203 00:16:29.940 --> 00:16:31.200 Yeah, no, it's stupid. 204 00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:32.580 Yeah, it's dumb. 205 00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:42.299 His decision, his decision to play it, like whatever the hell he thinks he's doing in episode for once he's got the great architect's brain in his head. 206 00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:48.659 I mean, he's clearly striving for someone who's just suffered brain surgery at the hands of a garbage compactor. 207 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:58.559 But it's it's a terrible, terrible ill-judged performance and it's sort of it's sort of horribly ablest in this sort of really unpleasant way. 208 00:16:58.620 --> 00:17:01.019 There's no menace in it whatsoever. 209 00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:10.019 And, you know, there's very little menace in Crowagon, not to that point because he's just a pair of neon lights with... 210 00:17:10.019 --> 00:17:12.299 You see, I actually... 211 00:17:12.359 --> 00:17:14.099 I actually really like that. 212 00:17:14.220 --> 00:17:15.359 I think that's super funny. 213 00:17:15.420 --> 00:17:30.539 And I do think that Richard Briar is calling him my pet, you know, in this sort of desperate attempt to enforce some sort of hierarchy where he's the owner and Croagnon's the pet, but all the snivelling and cowering that he does shows that it's quite the other way round. 214 00:17:30.660 --> 00:17:34.200 See, that's the one set of scenes where I like Richard Briars. 215 00:17:34.259 --> 00:17:35.460 I think he gets it right there. 216 00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:44.759 And I think then the main problem with his chief caretaker portrayal is that the chief caretaker is always on the brink of losing control. 217 00:17:44.819 --> 00:17:49.140 And so when he does lose control in front of Croagnon, there's no surprise. 218 00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:54.180 But if he'd played it sort of, oh, no, everything's fine and I'm completely straight down the line. 219 00:17:54.240 --> 00:18:03.839 Like if he like played it like a stereotypical detective sergeant on the bill and then falls to pieces in front of Crow Agnon, that's scary. nuanced it and led up to it. 220 00:18:03.900 --> 00:18:04.500 Yeah, I agree. 221 00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:08.099 But I think the point is that he's a sort of pathetic job's worth. 222 00:18:08.220 --> 00:18:09.059 You know what I mean? 223 00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:10.980 He might have just seen recent Doctor Who. 224 00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:16.200 Yeah, yeah, he could have said, oh, JNT, can you send me some tapes to Doctor Who? 225 00:18:16.259 --> 00:18:17.400 JNT sends him timelash. 226 00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:18.660 Oh, that's how I meant to play it. 227 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:20.759 But then you've got Clive Merrison. 228 00:18:20.819 --> 00:18:22.079 Who is great. 229 00:18:22.140 --> 00:18:22.740 Who's great. 230 00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:26.279 But the thing is, he plays the deputy chief caretaker as someone who's competent. 231 00:18:26.339 --> 00:18:30.480 And also with a proper fanboy, giant sporting accent. 232 00:18:30.539 --> 00:18:33.660 Can I just mention, can we name check Clive Merrison for a moment? 233 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:34.920 I'm so glad we remembered. 234 00:18:34.980 --> 00:18:37.500 He's my favourite Sherlock Holmes. 235 00:18:37.559 --> 00:18:41.160 Up to almost including Jeremy Brett. 236 00:18:41.220 --> 00:18:43.259 So Jeremy Brett from the classic 80s. 237 00:18:43.319 --> 00:18:47.819 You know who was actually tipped to play the chief caretaker, don't you? 238 00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:53.400 Edward Hardwick, who was one of the Watsons, who was a good Watson, yes. 239 00:18:53.460 --> 00:18:56.339 But I think Clive Merrison is... 240 00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:56.940 I just love him. 241 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:04.259 Do listen, if you haven't heard the BBC for, they've got Mr. Judy Dench, Michael Williams playing Watson, he is actually the best Watson of all time. 242 00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:06.359 He really is extraordinary with Merrison. 243 00:19:06.420 --> 00:19:09.000 They're my favourite audio, no offence to Nick Briggs. 244 00:19:09.059 --> 00:19:11.640 Favourite audio, Sherlock Holmes. you heard them? 245 00:19:11.700 --> 00:19:13.319 No, no, I have heard also. 246 00:19:13.380 --> 00:19:13.920 That's so good. 247 00:19:13.980 --> 00:19:14.460 They're so good. 248 00:19:14.579 --> 00:19:17.099 I mean, of course, he was in... just camping off. 249 00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:20.099 Yeah, speaking of... 250 00:19:20.220 --> 00:19:24.000 I think he's quite wrapped on TV, but he really in everything. 251 00:19:24.059 --> 00:19:25.740 But he's superb on radio. 252 00:19:25.799 --> 00:19:27.960 What did you, look, he's chief caretaker. 253 00:19:28.019 --> 00:19:29.759 I think he's taking at the Mickey as well. 254 00:19:29.819 --> 00:19:33.660 But he's doing the children's TV performance that everyone's doing, I think. 255 00:19:33.779 --> 00:19:42.299 Mind you, I really like the moment where he says, the one situation where you're allowed to disobey the rules is when the chief caretaker is just not the chief caretaker. 256 00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:46.920 I think he is playing it for kids TV, but he plays that realisation quite well. 257 00:19:46.980 --> 00:19:49.859 He then has to do that completely stupid jump over. 258 00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:51.359 Can we talk about the cleaners? 259 00:19:53.099 --> 00:19:55.920 I wanted to love them as much as the war machines. 260 00:19:56.039 --> 00:19:56.880 And I didn't. 261 00:19:56.940 --> 00:20:04.140 I think a big problem is... is the long lingering shots of them going down corridors. 262 00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:07.980 It is hilarious seeing manicured legs with fluffy slippers sticking out. 263 00:20:08.099 --> 00:20:08.940 Don't get me wrong. 264 00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:15.180 But I think the problem is you get a long lingering 32nd shot of them, which Kef McCulloch then has to fill with you to see? 265 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:16.200 with his score. 266 00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:17.579 Dun, dun, dun, dun. 267 00:20:17.579 --> 00:20:22.440 Just to get the nether regions of Thora herd sticking out of the back. 268 00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:25.019 And haven't we all wished we'd been there at one point? 269 00:20:25.019 --> 00:20:28.079 You know, I have to say, with the music for this. 270 00:20:28.619 --> 00:20:35.700 I do enjoy it, but I agree a lot of the times it is working against the drama. 271 00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:45.779 One piece I particularly love, though, is the Kang's greeting routine with the raising your arms up one at a time and lowering them. 272 00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:50.640 Because as a kid, I looked at that and I went, it's, I'm going to hit you. 273 00:20:50.700 --> 00:20:51.900 No, I'm not going to hit you. 274 00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:54.180 I'm not going to hit you, and now I greet you. 275 00:20:54.240 --> 00:21:01.740 They're in this culture where playful violence is how they fight with their other tribes with the other kangs. 276 00:21:01.859 --> 00:21:07.980 And the only television they have is reruns of Eurovision, because it honestly all looks like dance moves from the Dutch ensemble. 277 00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:08.940 That's true as well. 278 00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:10.859 But they're showing, I'm not going to hit you with my left hand. 279 00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:14.519 I'm not going to hit you with my right hand and now I'm going to greet you. 280 00:21:14.579 --> 00:21:16.680 Yeah, I kind of get what they're going for. 281 00:21:16.740 --> 00:21:18.420 Yeah, yeah, subtle and clever. 282 00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:26.160 Yeah, you know, I get their language, which, in a way, it has to be clunky, so you pick up what they're trying to say, like ice hot is cool. 283 00:21:26.220 --> 00:21:28.079 High fabion, high fashion. 284 00:21:28.140 --> 00:21:30.960 These are picking up on Marshall McClue in terms, you know. 285 00:21:31.019 --> 00:21:34.619 So again, we're indulging in metacritiques of media. 286 00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:38.160 And he's the one who coined the terms hot and cool. 287 00:21:38.220 --> 00:21:42.480 I won't go into it again. unless you write, unless you ask. 288 00:21:42.539 --> 00:21:43.980 I really will. 289 00:21:44.039 --> 00:21:46.920 But yeah, yeah, they're actually picking... 290 00:21:46.980 --> 00:21:48.839 So what I mean about this thing working on so many different levels. 291 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:52.500 This is kind of, you could say kind of sad that it doesn't quite get there. 292 00:21:52.559 --> 00:22:16.619 But if you look at the etchiness and scratchiness of graphics at the time and really of the quality of media, I think the fact that it allows, as you were saying before, Nathan, about Tom and the Rani, which didn't really do this, it talked about glossy and glossy itself, was a subversion of the gritty reality of what these people were going through, whereas here the grit is on the surface and brought home. 293 00:22:16.680 --> 00:22:21.660 I think it still works as a critique for, you know, a double whammy of what the story's trying to do. 294 00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:26.759 I don't think the appearance or the look or the styling or even the casting is actually working against the narrative. 295 00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:31.859 Big finish have kind of done a remake of this story. 296 00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:33.299 It's called Spaceport Fear. 297 00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:34.680 Oh, I just heard that. 298 00:22:34.680 --> 00:22:36.059 With Colin and Bonnie. 299 00:22:36.059 --> 00:22:44.940 The premise is that there's this group of people who've been locked in a, like an airport lounge, but for spaceships, for a few generations. 300 00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:48.839 And so you get the corruptions of language, like when people talk about being children. 301 00:22:48.900 --> 00:22:51.539 They say, oh, no, that's been there since I was carry on. 302 00:22:52.140 --> 00:23:04.019 But I think listening to Spaceport fear, it's because it's more polished, it's not as successful for me, but also, I look back on this with the nostalgia of a six-year-old watching. 303 00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:06.480 And one thing I particularly love. 304 00:23:06.539 --> 00:23:19.859 I picked up on this when we were alive, tweeting it a few weeks ago is I find it hard to imagine Colin Baker in this story because the doctor with the gangs, he doesn't correct their language. 305 00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:21.660 He doesn't diminish their culture. 306 00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:23.700 He joins in. 307 00:23:23.700 --> 00:23:27.059 Sylvester McCoy is the doctor is a working class doctor. 308 00:23:27.180 --> 00:23:30.420 And we'll see Osmotic influence in that, yeah. 309 00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:34.200 Yeah, and we'll see this all the way through his tenure. 310 00:23:34.259 --> 00:23:37.920 He'll buddy up with the guards who are working the door. 311 00:23:37.980 --> 00:23:46.319 He'll buddy up with the gangs and, you know, he tries to adopt their language as well to communicate with them and they really like him as a result. 312 00:23:46.380 --> 00:23:48.900 And in the 1st scene when they meet Mel. 313 00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:52.440 Mel does hang back and, you know, I don't want to be a kang. 314 00:23:52.500 --> 00:23:54.839 Well, we don't want you to be a kang. 315 00:23:54.900 --> 00:24:03.720 They like the doctor because even though he's an old star, he speaks to them on their level, whereas Mel retains her middle class poshness. 316 00:24:03.900 --> 00:24:06.900 And again, there's that classism going on. 317 00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:08.880 Lower middle class. 318 00:24:08.940 --> 00:24:11.279 Lower middle class poshness. 319 00:24:11.339 --> 00:24:12.599 The upper hand. 320 00:24:12.660 --> 00:24:15.599 It's all shoulder pads and knee-warmers. 321 00:24:15.660 --> 00:24:20.519 Oh, actually, we barely talked about her outfit last week, but she's got another cracking outfit this week. 322 00:24:20.579 --> 00:24:23.220 I know, she says a white dog. not really one of any colour. 323 00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:26.160 No, you're all of them, you... 324 00:24:26.220 --> 00:24:27.240 She's wearing blue. 325 00:24:27.299 --> 00:24:28.799 Why do we have that? 326 00:24:28.859 --> 00:24:30.119 I don't know what I am. 327 00:24:30.180 --> 00:24:31.140 Yeah, actually, you're right. 328 00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:34.140 Maybe that's why they're asking because she's got red hair, but she's got the blue outfit. 329 00:24:34.200 --> 00:24:36.359 I never thought of that. absolutely no dress scenes. 330 00:24:36.420 --> 00:24:39.900 She is really the carry-on from the Colin era, and you do need that. 331 00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:44.220 You do need to recognise the immediate past in that I don't really think she fits in. 332 00:24:44.279 --> 00:24:59.819 For me, Bonnie plays this exactly the same pitch and relativism that Katie Manning played her part in that she plays it for the junior audience, whether that was direction or whether that was Bonnie's feeling for it or whether it's just that the way she read the lines and thought, what else are you going to do with this? 333 00:24:59.940 --> 00:25:03.660 But also maybe that's where Bonnie's career was at the time too. 334 00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:06.059 She was a panda star and a singing dancing girl. 335 00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:08.400 So she was brought in for the lightness of touch. 336 00:25:09.539 --> 00:25:11.759 But it doesn't work for me at all. 337 00:25:11.819 --> 00:25:15.720 Well, I think next week when she's on location, her performance is quite different. 338 00:25:15.779 --> 00:25:17.339 It's a bit of mud on her. 339 00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:26.759 Well, it's a little bit more realistic because she's shooting it in a realistic environment, whereas this does still feel like a stage and everyone else is going panto in this one. 340 00:25:26.819 --> 00:25:28.619 So I think, yeah. 341 00:25:28.799 --> 00:25:34.200 I kind of like that she gets a pseudo romance with PECs. 342 00:25:34.259 --> 00:25:37.680 And it's not really a romance because we're not doing romance in this part. 343 00:25:37.740 --> 00:25:39.359 You know, it's all very broad strokes. 344 00:25:39.420 --> 00:25:40.680 And Pex is gay. 345 00:25:40.740 --> 00:25:41.579 And Pex is gay. 346 00:25:41.640 --> 00:25:44.579 I'm glad you mentioned broad strokes because it is more of a strap on, right? 347 00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:50.940 But 1st of all, there's that great bit where he pulls the lighting fixture off the wall to impress her. 348 00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:56.279 And her immediate reaction is just, you're destroying something for no purpose whatsoever. 349 00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:59.220 If you could put that back there and it could serve some purpose. 350 00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:00.000 That'd be great. 351 00:26:00.059 --> 00:26:01.920 But you can't create, you can only destroy. 352 00:26:01.980 --> 00:26:06.059 And I'm like, that is a great statement of what Doctor Who should be about. 353 00:26:06.119 --> 00:26:08.099 Yes, and what it hasn't been recently. 354 00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:13.319 No, it's like Patrick Trouton and all the crockery in that caravan in the enemy of the world. 355 00:26:13.380 --> 00:26:14.099 Yeah, yeah. 356 00:26:14.099 --> 00:26:15.240 People make lovely things. 357 00:26:15.299 --> 00:26:21.059 People spend all their time making putting lovely podcasts together and then other people come along just to destroy them. 358 00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:24.119 But yeah, they get, listen, we're looking at you. 359 00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:30.779 Despite the fact that they do spend like half of episode 3 trapped in a cupboard that just happens to be a lift. 360 00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:48.180 They get some really lovely moments where like, like where Mel discovers that Pex has been lying all this time and he's actually a desserter and she, she is just, she's really quite not upset with him, but just really sad that he's had to lie to her and... 361 00:26:48.299 --> 00:26:51.119 That nicely shadows what we just saw last night, doesn't it? 362 00:26:51.180 --> 00:26:59.039 We just saw Empress of Mars on TV last night and that really lovely subtle performance from another dessert. 363 00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:00.960 From another red coated hottie, yes. 364 00:27:01.019 --> 00:27:12.839 In fact, I think Pax is obviously pivotal here, and the very last shot has the words Pax lives, and 2 sort of Kang colours scrawled on the wall. 365 00:27:13.799 --> 00:27:20.700 I think that PEX is, and I live tweeted this and got a little bit of pushback, but I'm going with it. 366 00:27:20.759 --> 00:27:35.160 I think that his storyline is heavily informed by the story of Jesus, and I think seriously, I think that he is an outcast, his despised and rejected of men. everyone hates and mocks him. 367 00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:55.140 He, however, sacrifices his life, lays down his life so that a group of people who are fragmented and at odds and in terrible danger, unite together, the very last thing that we see is them having a religious ceremony to honour him. 368 00:27:55.200 --> 00:28:05.940 And then, of course, his ultimate resurrection with the words Pex lives at the end, their animated by that spirit of self-sacrifice that he exhibits. 369 00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:10.319 I love the scene where he loses his bottle. 370 00:28:10.380 --> 00:28:15.119 He's got to delay the great architect from getting there, so they have time to get their plans in place. 371 00:28:15.180 --> 00:28:27.480 And he's stepped up and he's been so brave and everyone's so proud of him and he knows what's hanging on this, but he still just can't bring himself to be brave enough to do the right thing. 372 00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:31.440 He has to step in and sacrifice himself instead. 373 00:28:31.500 --> 00:28:42.420 And I think that's so lovely for something where all the characters are types where none of them have proper names where there's a level of unreality. 374 00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:48.599 There is a little bit of a level of realism there, which I just think that C.S. Lewis could have written this. 375 00:28:48.660 --> 00:28:49.980 No, he's horrible. 376 00:28:50.039 --> 00:28:51.960 That's what he would have done. 377 00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:53.579 No way Marxist at all. 378 00:28:53.640 --> 00:28:56.700 And it actually, and then it makes the Bonnie Mary Magdalene. 379 00:28:56.819 --> 00:28:59.160 And if it makes Sylvester the Holy Ghost. 380 00:28:59.220 --> 00:29:06.119 See, what I love about that scene is, you know, Pecks tries to run away from the fight as the doctor is having his head caved in. 381 00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:18.180 And what makes him come back isn't just Mel looking at him, it's him looking at his Kang bracelet and realising he finally belongs and he's finally accepted for who he is and that's when he lays down his life. 382 00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:27.420 Do you think that's what they're trying to tell us that Jesus was actually just a member of one of Leonard Bernstein's West Side Story gangs, really. 383 00:29:27.480 --> 00:29:33.539 Well, it's all just, which makes, which makes God entirely Old Testament Jewish and queer. 384 00:29:33.660 --> 00:29:36.480 If he is, in fact, a good story. 385 00:29:36.539 --> 00:29:39.599 Well, we've just said Pex is gay. 386 00:29:39.720 --> 00:29:42.359 It's all making a lot more sense to me. 387 00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:48.119 When I say broad strokes early. story that functions on, as you say, archetypes. 388 00:29:48.180 --> 00:29:53.640 You know, the 3 old ladies who are named are Tilda Tabby and Maddie. 389 00:29:53.700 --> 00:29:55.380 They're all sort of... 390 00:29:55.440 --> 00:29:56.279 Oh, yeah. 391 00:29:56.279 --> 00:29:59.220 They're too... behind Brendan right now. 392 00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:03.539 Yeah, then you've got the gangs who are all named after architectural features. 393 00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:06.599 Binliner, fire escape, drinking fountain. 394 00:30:06.660 --> 00:30:09.359 And yet this really is abominable. 395 00:30:09.420 --> 00:30:11.640 It's a, it just doesn't work. 396 00:30:11.700 --> 00:30:12.480 It doesn't hold together. 397 00:30:12.539 --> 00:30:15.119 I know, we're all so nice about everything. 398 00:30:15.180 --> 00:30:16.140 But it doesn't, does it? 399 00:30:16.200 --> 00:30:18.839 I mean, there's great little moments, but it doesn't hold together. 400 00:30:18.900 --> 00:30:28.259 Well, Gareth Roberts once said that if season 24 had had tone meetings, the way that the new series does and everyone was on the same page with tone. 401 00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:33.059 And if it was put on Saturday night with the same level of advertisement of the Trial of the Time Lord. 402 00:30:33.180 --> 00:30:34.619 He says it would have got double the ratings. 403 00:30:34.680 --> 00:30:36.839 He's like, there's nothing wrong with the script. 404 00:30:36.900 --> 00:30:38.160 There's nothing wrong with the direction. 405 00:30:38.220 --> 00:30:39.420 There's nothing wrong with the performance. 406 00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:40.559 They're just all pulling in different directions. 407 00:30:40.619 --> 00:30:42.359 Getty Wyatt was a real coup. 408 00:30:42.420 --> 00:30:51.359 And we have to say, GNT had him on board before Cartwall had come along. because of the play clause, which also had, I think, Elizabeth Spriggs in it, didn't it? 409 00:30:51.420 --> 00:30:54.000 It was a send-up of cats and it was 2 old ladies. 410 00:30:54.059 --> 00:30:59.160 It was actually kind of like vicious, but without Ian McCellen or whoever the other old lovey was. 411 00:30:59.220 --> 00:31:02.160 I always say Patrick Stewart, but it's actually Derek Jacoby. 412 00:31:02.220 --> 00:31:03.839 You never see them in the same room together. 413 00:31:04.140 --> 00:31:07.859 I have some sympathy for people who complain that it doesn't quite work. 414 00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:13.200 And I do think that season 24 does take a while to kind of hit its stride. 415 00:31:13.319 --> 00:31:19.440 And I do think there's one story in it that isn't particularly successful, but I don't think it's this one. 416 00:31:19.500 --> 00:31:24.119 Yeah, for me, this is the one that isn't particularly successful, but we'll go. 417 00:31:24.180 --> 00:31:30.779 Yeah, well, I think it's got enough going on that it overcomes the flaws in the production. which are undoubtedly present. 418 00:31:30.839 --> 00:31:39.779 And there's joyfulness and there's, you can see there's a willing intent to do a lot, not just to do good, but to make it messy and interesting. 419 00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:41.519 Yeah, and it is messy. 420 00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:42.539 It is experimental. 421 00:31:42.599 --> 00:31:44.880 It's not clean and tidy. 422 00:31:44.940 --> 00:31:46.920 We haven't seen it before, have we? 423 00:31:46.980 --> 00:31:49.319 No, and it doesn't fit into the hooniverse either. 424 00:31:49.380 --> 00:31:50.160 Do you know what I mean? 425 00:31:50.220 --> 00:31:55.980 There's no references to the tin clavic minds of Raga or anything like that. disappoint you at all. 426 00:31:56.039 --> 00:31:57.480 No, no, no, no. 427 00:31:57.539 --> 00:31:59.519 It didn't need a pteraleptyl in it. 428 00:31:59.579 --> 00:32:02.039 It's functioning quite well without that. 429 00:32:02.099 --> 00:32:04.259 You know, it had no monsters. 430 00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:08.460 It was actually Cartmore's thing to push the cleaners to make them the robot monster. 431 00:32:08.460 --> 00:32:10.500 Wow, that's surprising, considering... 432 00:32:10.619 --> 00:32:12.720 ANT is so determined to have a marketable monster. 433 00:32:12.779 --> 00:32:13.799 Didn't have a monster. 434 00:32:13.859 --> 00:32:14.220 Yeah. 435 00:32:14.220 --> 00:32:18.059 And that stupid crab thing in the, which I actually think is terribly cute. 436 00:32:18.119 --> 00:32:21.660 The Toyota design crab that's living in the terrible pool. 437 00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:22.740 That's really cute. 438 00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:24.119 It's like some... 439 00:32:24.119 --> 00:32:28.079 It's like Koreans being given Thunderbirds to Remo. 440 00:32:29.819 --> 00:32:32.519 Tamagotchi TV. 441 00:32:33.480 --> 00:32:37.680 Did you know there's actually Paradise Towers apartments on the Gold Coast? 442 00:32:37.740 --> 00:32:38.160 Stop it. 443 00:32:39.059 --> 00:32:42.299 Fully horrendous to anyone who'd care to look it up. 444 00:32:42.359 --> 00:32:53.099 And as mentioned earlier, of course, Maddie is played by Judy Cornwell completing the 3rd of 3 annual guest appearances by keeping up appearances, main actors. 445 00:32:53.460 --> 00:32:56.160 Oh, God, it's true. 446 00:32:56.220 --> 00:32:57.660 Yeah, she's dazy. 447 00:32:57.720 --> 00:33:00.960 So yeah, we had Onslow last year and we had Richard. 448 00:33:01.019 --> 00:33:01.740 The year before. 449 00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:08.579 Cyril Cusack's daughter or granddaughter as one of the kings, the leader of the Blue Kings owner. 450 00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:09.299 Yes, yes, of course. 451 00:33:09.420 --> 00:33:12.240 And of course, he was up for the casting alongside Billy. 452 00:33:12.299 --> 00:33:13.500 Yes. 453 00:33:13.559 --> 00:33:15.779 James Cyril Cusa again. 454 00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:17.700 Yeah, so yeah, that's Catherine Cusack. 455 00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:20.279 And also as Fire Escape, we have Julie Brennan. 456 00:33:20.339 --> 00:33:27.059 Yeah, Mrs. Mrs. Mark Strickson. of the time she was the one I said, I was awful that they dyed his hair, orange. 457 00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:27.779 Everyone looked at him. 458 00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:28.740 It was appalling. 459 00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:31.380 He was so self-conscious and he had a dreadful time. 460 00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:33.900 She would never shut up about it. 461 00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:38.279 And then all of a sudden, she was no longer Mrs. Drickson. 462 00:33:38.339 --> 00:33:43.799 I was going to say all of a sudden she's put in red for this. funnier and crueller. 463 00:33:43.859 --> 00:33:44.460 I like it. 464 00:33:44.519 --> 00:33:50.160 But oh, how I adore the scenes of Sylvester telling the kangs about their history. 465 00:33:50.220 --> 00:33:54.660 I love them all sitting down to watch the video and drinking lemonade. 466 00:33:55.079 --> 00:33:57.180 Curiously refreshing. 467 00:33:57.240 --> 00:33:59.880 Yeah, they even take the piss out of Pepsi and COVID. 468 00:33:59.940 --> 00:34:00.599 Really good. 469 00:34:00.660 --> 00:34:03.180 Yeah, you know, I have to agree with you, Richard. 470 00:34:03.240 --> 00:34:10.619 It's it is a mess, but it's a mess that everyone wants to try to make good except for Richard Bryars. 471 00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:15.480 Everyone wants to try to make this entertaining TV. everyone just has different ideas about how to achieve it. 472 00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:18.659 It should be a mess because the context is messy. 473 00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:20.940 Does it work in the way that Horns of Nimon works? 474 00:34:21.059 --> 00:34:27.420 When I watched it for the 1st time, I thought, ooh, it's Graham Williams back, you know, there's this sort of... 475 00:34:27.420 --> 00:34:28.500 Yeah, it does, doesn't it? 476 00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:31.440 I actually think in retrospect, it's not as witty as that. 477 00:34:31.500 --> 00:34:34.860 It's not as detached and ironic as that. 478 00:34:34.920 --> 00:34:36.420 It's not slide in the way. 479 00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:41.699 I think it is much more straightforward and a bit more earnest and political. also young. 480 00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:45.360 Yeah, in the way that William's stories never were. 481 00:34:45.420 --> 00:34:45.900 Yeah. 482 00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:46.800 No, no, no. 483 00:34:46.860 --> 00:34:49.500 There was a kind of level of irony. 484 00:34:49.559 --> 00:34:55.440 We were always being told what was funny by the older undergraduates in Williams era. 485 00:34:55.500 --> 00:35:02.340 It was always, yes, Tom and Lala are students, but their final years, and they already know everything and they're terribly sophisticated. 486 00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:04.500 They probably smoke behind the toilet block. 487 00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:06.420 Those sorts of kids. 488 00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:09.780 Whereas this lot, no, we're right here and now. 489 00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:12.179 Yeah, I think that's right. 490 00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:32.639 I think it is much more serious, much more politically serious, and it really wants to do something that Doctor Who hasn't done for a long time, where Doctor Who has been deliberately trying to be a political and has only occasionally inadvertently stumbled into sort of horrific right wing militaristic messages just out of sheer kind of incompetence. 491 00:35:32.820 --> 00:35:42.780 And so, however flawed this is as a production, I just think it's really, really amazing. 492 00:35:42.840 --> 00:35:44.880 It's a great breath of fresh air. 493 00:35:44.940 --> 00:35:47.519 And if you, you know, don't aim high. 494 00:35:47.579 --> 00:35:48.719 Do you know what I mean? 495 00:35:48.780 --> 00:35:51.659 You just produce the same space corridors every week. 496 00:35:51.719 --> 00:35:52.800 You can show. 497 00:35:52.860 --> 00:35:54.900 But if you build high, you have a chance at happiness. 498 00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:57.059 The thing is, I love that. 499 00:35:57.119 --> 00:36:03.119 And when I am in stressful situations and when I am unhappy, I get a voice in my head that says build high for happiness. 500 00:36:03.179 --> 00:36:04.679 It's a lovely sentiment. 501 00:36:04.739 --> 00:36:06.900 Look what you don't, Andrew, come. 502 00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:29.940 But going back to, you know, Doctor Who is now suddenly being political, I have to wonder if the cancellation slash hiatus is partially responsible for that because I'm reading John Nathan Turner's biography by Richard Marson totally tasteless, which was previously published as The Scandalous Life and Times of John Nathan Turner. 503 00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:44.519 And, of course, he was a producer of television in Thatcher's Britain, where, as we've discussed, gay either wasn't talked about or it was something to be looked down upon and shunned and shamed. 504 00:36:44.579 --> 00:36:54.719 I think John Nathan Turner's apoliticalism in producing Doctor Who was as much avoidance as it was self-preservation. 505 00:36:54.780 --> 00:36:58.980 I think he felt that he couldn't put political messages into the program. 506 00:36:59.039 --> 00:37:00.179 Do you think he wanted to? 507 00:37:00.239 --> 00:37:08.820 I don't know whether he wanted to, but I think by that point, having been at the BBC for so long, I think it had just become 2nd nature to conceal. 508 00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:15.239 So when Andrew Cartmel comes along, 1st of all, he's got this political idea... 509 00:37:15.239 --> 00:37:16.440 Yeah, he's straight. 510 00:37:16.500 --> 00:37:19.800 But also, the show's already been cancelled. 511 00:37:19.860 --> 00:37:23.639 Why not start kicking the hornet's nest when no one's watching anyway? 512 00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:30.719 That's what I mean about Indian summer because this is just this brief respite. resuscitation. where they have nothing to lose. 513 00:37:30.780 --> 00:37:31.679 No one's really watching. 514 00:37:31.679 --> 00:37:35.219 And so they can start to be crazy and experimental. 515 00:37:35.340 --> 00:37:36.300 And I think that's terrific. 516 00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:42.719 And there's something you said before on the podcast, Brendan, is, you know, you can't make that's not political. 517 00:37:42.780 --> 00:37:45.780 You know, like, that's a very profound statement. 518 00:37:45.840 --> 00:38:02.579 We go back to Walter Benjamin, again, who I wanted to cite in a previous episode, Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction, when you say that all things are reduced and all things are pap and all things are repeated, but that doesn't necessarily devalue the message innate in each article. 519 00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:06.059 And the fact that it's mass produced and the fact that it's everywhere. 520 00:38:06.119 --> 00:38:10.260 It doesn't make these lives anymore dissolute or any more meaningless. 521 00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:10.679 In fact. 522 00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:20.280 Yeah, yeah, well, I think I think that what ended up happening was that Doctor Who failed to engage with the outside world at all. 523 00:38:20.340 --> 00:38:39.420 And by default, that's a support of the status quo, the idea that, you know, the obsession of Doctor Who Monster book reading teenagers is the most important thing that we want to address in this television program, just kind of the subtext of that is because basically everything's okay. 524 00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:43.679 And this is what we can afford to expand energy worrying about. 525 00:38:43.739 --> 00:38:47.099 And the deliberate rejection of that. 526 00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:50.940 There's nothing here, that lovers of the Doctor Who monster book. 527 00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:58.619 There's no points at which you can go back to it to verify that a reference to the pteroreptils is correct. 528 00:38:58.679 --> 00:39:07.800 All that you've got instead is a political message about, you know, like a kind of Marxist political message in a sense. 529 00:39:07.860 --> 00:39:17.820 I mean, any society that you depict is inhabiting a building full of different floors, you know, you start to think about stratification and things. 530 00:39:17.880 --> 00:39:19.860 That's what Benjamin touched on. 531 00:39:19.860 --> 00:39:30.840 And again, the integration of this and the Marxism and with postmodernism is that you can take detritus, but still find meaning because there are individual lives within this. 532 00:39:30.900 --> 00:39:44.880 This was all coming out of great despair after the war when we expected things to be fantastic and we expect, you know, that golden age, which is what we came to with Billy and with Pat, that there was this great expectation. 533 00:39:44.940 --> 00:40:05.460 And then there was a sort of reconditioning, if you like, rather than a reconnection, and the Tories took power again, and there was the energy crisis, and there were all the stories, when you could see with Pertwi, before the rush again of youth and reclaiming the lost hope, which is Tom, you've had Doctor Who always touching on the political pulse at the time. 534 00:40:05.519 --> 00:40:06.480 We're getting that now. 535 00:40:06.539 --> 00:40:08.760 Yes, we live in despairing times. 536 00:40:08.820 --> 00:40:09.960 Yes, there isn't funding. 537 00:40:10.019 --> 00:40:11.940 Yes, pensioners are freezing all the rest of it. 538 00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:23.159 Education is starting to cost, but we can still reclaim the meaning of our lives and create our own subcultures and our own what the ruling class would call deviant we actually call life and art. 539 00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:25.260 In terms of art. 540 00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:28.260 There is a video game I funded on Kickstarter. 541 00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:31.260 This is going somewhere called ukulele. 542 00:40:31.320 --> 00:40:36.239 It's building on an old series of games called Banjo Kazooie, the original programmers, it's a British game. 543 00:40:36.300 --> 00:40:39.599 And what happened was it was massively funded. 544 00:40:39.659 --> 00:40:44.280 It was fully funded within 38 minutes on Kickstarter, 175,000 pounds. naked. 545 00:40:44.340 --> 00:40:50.579 Ouch, actually, those strings hurt when they snap. ended up with 2500000 pounds funding. 546 00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:51.000 Yeah. 547 00:40:51.059 --> 00:41:01.500 Now, a fan of their games, a gamer with a YouTube channel. his handler is John Tron, and pretty much he kind of said, hey guys, I love your stuff. 548 00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:02.579 I've pre-ought the game. 549 00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:04.019 You're so wonderful. 550 00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:07.079 I would have loved to have been in it. they're like, well, why don't you play a voice in the game? 551 00:41:07.139 --> 00:41:09.119 So they recorded his voice, da da da. 552 00:41:09.179 --> 00:41:19.500 About 2 months before release, he went on this massive anti-immigrant rant, kind of pro-Trump. what have you and then kind of doubled down on it. 553 00:41:19.619 --> 00:41:21.900 And they removed him from the game. 554 00:41:22.019 --> 00:41:28.380 And the thing is, no one asked them to, but they said when, you know, we're not comfortable with him representing. 555 00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:30.300 And of course, there was a backlash against that. 556 00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:32.940 Oh, you know, this is censorship, et cetera, et cetera. 557 00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:42.840 But it is kind of an example of you cannot make art that is not political and who you choose to have involved in that art has a political message to it as well. 558 00:41:42.900 --> 00:41:45.300 The Enders game movie a couple of years ago. 559 00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:57.539 The studio desperately tried to say, oh, you know, it's not about the politics contained within the story, it's not about the politics of the author, and lots of people said, ah, no, actually it is, because it is pushing that idea. 560 00:41:58.019 --> 00:42:00.239 And not critiquing it. 561 00:42:00.300 --> 00:42:03.300 You know, you haven't used this as an opportunity to update the story. 562 00:42:03.420 --> 00:42:06.840 It's just kind of a straightforward adaptation. 563 00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:08.639 And you know what? 564 00:42:08.760 --> 00:42:20.340 If people want to put out that kind of art, that says morally dubious things, I think it is important that that art is experienced. 565 00:42:20.460 --> 00:42:23.039 But it cannot be above question. 566 00:42:24.179 --> 00:42:33.780 And so when people, for instance, might look back at the Tom Baker era and say, oh no, you can't criticise Hinchcliffe, you know, Hinchcliffe was wonderful. 567 00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:35.519 Well, we were very critical of Hinchcliffe. 568 00:42:35.579 --> 00:42:43.800 And I think it's equally true here that Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy at the time and in the years afterwards came in for a fair bit of a kicking. 569 00:42:43.800 --> 00:42:49.440 And there has been a reappraisal of them, especially in the DVD market and after the new series. 570 00:42:49.500 --> 00:42:53.159 But I think we've said this before as well. 571 00:42:53.219 --> 00:42:55.679 There never was a golden age of Doctor Who. 572 00:42:55.800 --> 00:42:57.539 You know, there are ears. 573 00:42:57.539 --> 00:42:59.880 There are ears that are... 574 00:43:01.199 --> 00:43:03.420 It's like he reached down my throat. 575 00:43:03.480 --> 00:43:07.619 But, you know, objectively, there's no golden age of Doctor Who. 576 00:43:07.619 --> 00:43:09.119 Personally, there certainly is. 577 00:43:09.179 --> 00:43:11.579 That's the thing, and that's okay. 578 00:43:11.639 --> 00:43:14.039 And it's okay to say that. 579 00:43:14.039 --> 00:43:21.900 And it's okay for friend of the podcast, Bernard, to make fun of us for saying that snake dance is a neglected German. 580 00:43:21.960 --> 00:43:23.699 Are we 20 years behind the rest of the world? 581 00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:25.800 That's okay because that's dialogue. 582 00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:32.519 That's dialogue about how we experience art and how we experience the world. 583 00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:35.400 And that's really valuable. 584 00:43:35.460 --> 00:43:40.920 And the only time you lose that is when you kind of say, oh no, you're just wrong. 585 00:43:40.980 --> 00:43:46.980 Like, Richard, you know, you've said just now that you kind of consider this story to be quite a mess. 586 00:43:47.039 --> 00:43:50.760 Oh, I think it's extraordinary and beautiful, but I don't think it just doesn't gel on screen. 587 00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:52.679 Whereas for me, it gels a lot more. 588 00:43:52.739 --> 00:43:54.539 And that's okay. 589 00:43:54.599 --> 00:44:00.840 You know, we don't have to agree on these things, but that is also a part of the political and personal experience. 590 00:44:01.019 --> 00:44:10.260 I'm surprised how watchable I found it when I, as I say, it was one of the sealed tombs of wrestle on copies that I just never unearthed, and, you know, it's been sitting gathering dust. 591 00:44:10.320 --> 00:44:11.940 No, well, I'm fond of this one. 592 00:44:11.940 --> 00:44:21.179 And on many levels, it doesn't work, but it is the show for the very, very 1st time in a very, very long time trying to do something new. 593 00:44:21.239 --> 00:44:23.699 Yes Yeah, this is a whole new show. 594 00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:25.980 And yet I can see Pat in it. 595 00:44:26.039 --> 00:44:29.099 I could even see pertly in this one. you know? 596 00:44:29.219 --> 00:44:29.699 Yeah. 597 00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:33.119 I honestly just can't imagine Colin in it and I love... 598 00:44:33.179 --> 00:44:33.659 I love. 599 00:44:33.719 --> 00:44:35.760 Actually, yeah, Tom would laud it over a bit. 600 00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:36.960 Tom would be awful. 601 00:44:37.019 --> 00:44:38.519 No, I think Pertwee would as well. 602 00:44:38.579 --> 00:44:39.719 I think you need someone. 603 00:44:39.719 --> 00:44:42.000 But I think Purby was a bit kinder and more subtle. 604 00:44:42.059 --> 00:44:43.380 Especially with the lids. 605 00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:48.360 Actually, you know who I think would be the one other doctor who'd be totally brilliant in this Billy. 606 00:44:48.420 --> 00:44:50.280 Imagine Billy with the cag. 607 00:44:50.400 --> 00:44:52.800 Flirting with them all the dirty old scrubber. 608 00:44:52.860 --> 00:44:53.219 He would. 609 00:44:53.280 --> 00:44:56.699 I'm not a drinking fountain that I prefer a bottle of gin to any day. 610 00:44:57.239 --> 00:44:59.159 He would be amazing. 611 00:44:59.219 --> 00:45:05.400 And it does actually feel a bit, except, of course, that would have been cataclysmic because these things were being built at the time. 612 00:45:05.460 --> 00:45:07.920 And celebrate it. 613 00:45:07.980 --> 00:45:17.460 They do say that the birth of post-modernism is actually 1972 and it has a date. the end of June, 1972, when the Grand Pruitt ego, isn't that a great name? 614 00:45:17.519 --> 00:45:26.280 Building estate was destroyed, and it's from the La Corbusio school, and it won awards when it was built only in the early 60s. 615 00:45:26.340 --> 00:45:33.239 But it was high rise for housing development for people on pensions and such like, and there were drugs. 616 00:45:33.300 --> 00:45:36.780 There was active gang warfare in the buildings, all the rest of it. 617 00:45:36.840 --> 00:45:42.179 So that's only, yeah, 1972 is the death of modernism, but, you know, we've got there in the end. 618 00:45:42.239 --> 00:45:44.159 It might have taken us 15 years, but we're there now. 619 00:45:44.460 --> 00:45:47.400 Speaking of Billy, something I didn't mention last week. 620 00:45:47.460 --> 00:45:55.739 Between season 23 and 24, of course, JNT thought he wasn't coming back, he went off on holiday and came back to 2 messages. 621 00:45:55.800 --> 00:45:58.679 One, you're still producer of Doctor Who and two. you have to fire Colin Baker. 622 00:45:58.739 --> 00:46:00.480 You have to fire. 623 00:46:00.599 --> 00:46:01.440 Colin Baker. 624 00:46:01.500 --> 00:46:02.699 Yeah. you, Jonathan Powell. 625 00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:05.039 Instead of having like 9 months to prepare for the season. 626 00:46:05.099 --> 00:46:06.719 He had two? 627 00:46:06.780 --> 00:46:09.539 I think I think 2 before they had to start briefing directors. 628 00:46:09.599 --> 00:46:12.659 Actually, yeah, and possibly 2 before they had to start filming. 629 00:46:12.719 --> 00:46:16.739 But because John didn't expect to be there. 630 00:46:16.800 --> 00:46:21.719 And, you know, he was tired of working on the show and he thought he was finally free of it. 631 00:46:21.780 --> 00:46:24.239 He called in Sidney Newman for advice. 632 00:46:24.360 --> 00:46:26.219 This is amazing. 633 00:46:26.280 --> 00:46:27.900 I'd forgotten all of this. 634 00:46:27.960 --> 00:46:28.860 Have you read the letter? 635 00:46:28.920 --> 00:46:30.300 Oh my god, it's insane. 636 00:46:30.360 --> 00:46:32.820 So, Nathan, do you know my story? 637 00:46:32.880 --> 00:46:35.219 And verity was also brought in. 638 00:46:35.340 --> 00:46:36.360 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 639 00:46:36.420 --> 00:46:37.019 Or consultant. 640 00:46:37.079 --> 00:46:39.539 She said, I've got better things to do with my life. 641 00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:39.900 Thank you. 642 00:46:39.960 --> 00:46:43.860 Yeah, okay, Sydney. 93 has no idea where he is. 643 00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:44.940 Ask him. 644 00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:48.659 Sidney Newman's ideas included an older doctor again. 645 00:46:48.719 --> 00:46:50.820 So get back to the Billy idea. told them to come. 646 00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:51.719 Who did he suggest? 647 00:46:51.780 --> 00:46:55.380 He said, you must recast Patrick Trouser. 648 00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:55.920 Oh, yes. 649 00:46:55.980 --> 00:46:58.860 He's still venerable and virile. 650 00:46:58.920 --> 00:47:00.119 He still moves about. 651 00:47:00.179 --> 00:47:01.079 Yeah, he's still got it. 652 00:47:01.139 --> 00:47:02.639 He wanted him. 653 00:47:02.699 --> 00:47:04.559 He died on the job. 654 00:47:04.619 --> 00:47:07.380 Yeah, must not know how to control the ship. 655 00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:09.360 He must want to go home. 656 00:47:09.480 --> 00:47:13.320 And then he must regenerate into a woman person. 657 00:47:13.619 --> 00:47:21.119 But not a Wonder Woman because we've had too many of these strong strident dynasty ladies, but more on her later. 658 00:47:21.179 --> 00:47:24.119 He must have 22 companions. 659 00:47:24.179 --> 00:47:26.340 Perhaps brother and sister. 660 00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:29.039 John, no, not John. 661 00:47:29.099 --> 00:47:29.760 Go on. 662 00:47:29.820 --> 00:47:34.199 But okay, yeah, so brother and sister, aged, I think. 17 and 13. 663 00:47:34.380 --> 00:47:35.699 Aged annoyingly. 664 00:47:35.820 --> 00:47:41.400 And the sister who is the younger one would have her hair in pigtails with John Lennon's spectacles. 665 00:47:41.460 --> 00:47:44.940 And when she gets upset or stressed, she plays the trumpet. 666 00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:45.840 Oh dear. 667 00:47:45.900 --> 00:47:48.239 But she lost it. 668 00:47:48.300 --> 00:47:55.199 She's a bit acey, though, in the way he just, or perhaps is a Malange, again, because the brother was a tagger. 669 00:47:55.260 --> 00:47:57.239 The brother sprays graffiti on everything. 670 00:47:57.300 --> 00:47:59.579 You know, he had some modern ideas in there. 671 00:47:59.699 --> 00:48:01.980 This is not the young people in the industry. 672 00:48:02.039 --> 00:48:02.519 Yeah. 673 00:48:02.579 --> 00:48:08.940 I think they just all had an enormous chortle at the BBC and thought, oh, Struth, what do we do now? 674 00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:12.239 You know, it's like when they auditioned Sylvester and we touched on this last week. 675 00:48:12.300 --> 00:48:19.980 JNT wanted Sylvester, but of course, 6th floor, Jonathan Powell said, no, we must see other actors, and JNT was enraged by this. 676 00:48:20.039 --> 00:48:23.159 He's like, you're forcing me to stay on, but you won't trust me. 677 00:48:23.219 --> 00:48:31.199 So the way he describes it, and the way Silt prescribes it is, we got 2 other very good actors, but completely for the part. 678 00:48:31.260 --> 00:48:32.579 Now, the thing is, they got him more than two. 679 00:48:32.639 --> 00:48:33.480 They got in Ken Campbell. 680 00:48:33.539 --> 00:48:34.440 Ken Campbell. 681 00:48:34.619 --> 00:48:35.820 Who was dark? 682 00:48:35.820 --> 00:48:40.380 Who started Source's career in 1970 as part of the King Campbell Roadshow. 683 00:48:40.440 --> 00:48:43.739 Would you remember Sylvest McCoy, the human bomb, which is how he started his career. 684 00:48:43.800 --> 00:48:49.320 That was the guy that, in fact, you know, Sylvester based a lot of his performances of early on. 685 00:48:49.380 --> 00:48:51.840 And he was, and Sylvester was still better than Ken. 686 00:48:51.900 --> 00:48:55.260 Is he Roger in that episode of Faulty Town? 687 00:48:55.679 --> 00:48:57.059 Yeah, in the anniversary. 688 00:48:57.119 --> 00:48:58.079 Yeah, yes. 689 00:48:58.079 --> 00:49:00.059 They got in... 690 00:49:00.719 --> 00:49:05.940 They got in Chris Jury, who later played Deadbeat in Greatest Show in the Galaxy. 691 00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:09.539 They got in Dermot Crowley, who's actually not bad in the audition tape. 692 00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:14.639 It's on one of the DVDs. one of the DVDs for this season. yeah And Harry Fielder. 693 00:49:14.760 --> 00:49:15.480 And another bloke. 694 00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:17.460 Yeah, kind of just really why? 695 00:49:17.519 --> 00:49:21.780 And so the last two, we have they're audition tapes along with Sylvester's. 696 00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:23.400 Dermot Crowley would have been interesting. 697 00:49:23.460 --> 00:49:28.019 Acting right up against Janet Fielding. and they did. 698 00:49:28.019 --> 00:49:28.559 Brave man. 699 00:49:28.619 --> 00:49:30.900 And they did, I believe, 2 scenes. 700 00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:36.360 So they did the Iron Lady scene, which was extensively reworked for inclusion in the Happiness Patrol. 701 00:49:36.420 --> 00:49:36.900 Yes. 702 00:49:36.900 --> 00:49:41.340 And they did what will become Mel's leaving scene in Dragonfire. 703 00:49:41.400 --> 00:49:46.860 And Silv kind of impresses the most in that and it's where it brings that melancholy we've been talking about. 704 00:49:46.920 --> 00:49:48.780 It's Cartwell who wrote both of these. 705 00:49:48.780 --> 00:49:49.980 Yeah. right. 706 00:49:50.039 --> 00:49:53.820 For Janet Fielding, who they actually wanted to play the doctor right from the start. 707 00:49:53.880 --> 00:49:55.320 That would have been great. 708 00:49:55.380 --> 00:49:57.539 She's actually quite good in me. 709 00:49:57.599 --> 00:49:58.559 In those auditions. 710 00:49:58.619 --> 00:50:00.420 She is amazing as Thatcher. 711 00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:01.679 Well, terrified. 712 00:50:01.679 --> 00:50:05.519 Indeed, as Peter Davis would say, just playing herself. 713 00:50:05.579 --> 00:50:18.539 There was a funny moment on Twitter the other day where Janet wished Colin Baker a happy birthday and said, I'm sure you were always reasonable to all your companions. which Peter Davidson responded, well, I'm sure he had very reasonable companions. 714 00:50:18.599 --> 00:50:21.599 Oh, my goodness, there's not an inch of sunlight and all that show, is there? 715 00:50:21.659 --> 00:50:23.639 They love each other. 716 00:50:23.699 --> 00:50:24.719 You can just... 717 00:50:24.780 --> 00:50:25.619 Oh yeah, absolutely. 718 00:50:25.679 --> 00:50:30.179 I'm kind of glad they didn't go with Sidney Newman's ideas. 719 00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:32.880 Mainly because Bollock... 720 00:50:33.480 --> 00:50:36.119 There's nothing postmodern about those ideas. 721 00:50:36.179 --> 00:50:42.179 No, it's just like, oh, yes, this new show called Doctor Who, which is exactly interesting for the, yes, with Biddy and Cliff. 722 00:50:42.239 --> 00:50:51.119 Yeah, when you think back in 1963, if you look at his notes, practically nothing makes it into the show and he's like, no monsters. 723 00:50:51.179 --> 00:50:53.280 We can't have any monsters in Doctor Who. 724 00:50:53.340 --> 00:50:55.739 We wouldn't have Nathan on this podcast if there were no monsters. 725 00:50:55.860 --> 00:51:01.380 We'd have James, who's now going to jump in a time machine and go back to avert the creation of the Daleks. 726 00:51:01.440 --> 00:51:02.340 Harsh but fair. 727 00:51:02.340 --> 00:51:03.360 Do that. 728 00:51:03.480 --> 00:51:07.079 Just despite me. vindictive. 729 00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:46.679 Well, ladies, gentlemen, Kangs, Rezies, Caretakers, we think we all deserve a bit of a holiday, so we're off to Disneyland in 1959. 730 00:51:46.860 --> 00:51:47.639 Hooray! 731 00:51:47.699 --> 00:51:49.619 How can the BBC budget stretch to this? 732 00:51:49.679 --> 00:51:53.280 We'll find out next week with Delta and the Bannermen do come back for that. 733 00:51:53.340 --> 00:52:02.159 Until then, you can find us online at flightthroughentirety.sexy, flight through entirety on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at FDE podcast on Twitter. 734 00:52:02.219 --> 00:52:11.219 Over on Bondfinger, you can find the PS Brosnan era, and that's on Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes and at Bondfingercast on Twitter. 735 00:52:11.280 --> 00:52:14.760 Don't forget, voting is still open for our Peter Davison commentary. 736 00:52:14.820 --> 00:52:18.119 Your choices are for to doomsday, nominated by Todd. 737 00:52:18.179 --> 00:52:21.179 Arc of Infinity, nominated by me. 738 00:52:21.239 --> 00:52:22.860 Enlightenment, nominated by Richard. 739 00:52:22.860 --> 00:52:24.059 That's a good one, listening. 740 00:52:24.059 --> 00:52:26.579 And Resurrection of the Dialects nominated by Nathan. 741 00:52:26.639 --> 00:52:27.420 He hates that. 742 00:52:27.480 --> 00:52:29.880 Because I hate the world. and everyone in it. 743 00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:33.300 That's a bond film with Piss Brosnan, isn't it? 744 00:52:33.420 --> 00:52:37.800 Until next week, may you not disappear up a Resi's waste disposal shoot. 745 00:52:37.860 --> 00:52:39.179 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 746 00:52:39.239 --> 00:52:39.659 Good night. 747 00:52:39.719 --> 00:52:40.320 Good night. 748 00:52:40.380 --> 00:52:42.840 I'm steaming my tool skirt for next week as we speak. 749 00:52:42.900 --> 00:52:43.559 Cheers. 750 00:53:00.300 --> 00:53:05.219 That was Flight for Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Brandon Jones, and Richard Stone. 751 00:53:05.280 --> 00:53:09.119 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, logo designed by Anthony Wells. 752 00:53:09.179 --> 00:53:13.260 This episode, Thatcher's Britain, was recorded on the 12th of June 2017. 753 00:53:13.500 --> 00:53:16.260 The next episode will be released on the 2nd of July. 754 00:53:22.380 --> 00:53:31.199 We would like to apologise to our listeners for bringing up any unpleasant memories of the Thatcher years and are delighted to reassure you that nothing like them can ever happen again. 755 00:53:34.500 --> 00:53:43.019 We're releasing some lovely dunkable biscuit varieties, the Bonfinger label, too, you'll soon be able to purchase for your added enjoyment. 756 00:53:43.079 --> 00:53:43.920 Yes. 757 00:53:45.780 --> 00:53:48.960 It goes with Pierce Brosnan's teabag. 758 00:53:49.019 --> 00:53:50.519 Roger Monte Carlo. 759 00:53:53.579 --> 00:53:55.440 Sean Canary things. 760 00:53:56.400 --> 00:53:58.380 Just dreadful, man. 761 00:54:00.420 --> 00:54:04.260 Just trying to think of a biscuit beginning with D, but I can't. 762 00:54:04.920 --> 00:54:06.659 George Lamington. 763 00:54:06.719 --> 00:54:09.780 Are you doing the voting part? 764 00:54:09.900 --> 00:54:10.079 Yes. 765 00:54:10.139 --> 00:54:11.639 Don't forget.