WEBVTT

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This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 12:15:58

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast, which takes the form of a 327

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subsection 9 Appendix 3 conversation.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan I'm a tatty old pool cleaner for this one.

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And we are going to visit the Great Pool in the sky.

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It's Paradise Towers.

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Well, here we are.

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I managed to watch it.

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It was one of those ones we broke out of the cellophone.

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It's actually pretty good.

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This is one where there are some production problems that kind of

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get in the way of the sort of full realisation of what's going on

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but the script, and by extension, the novelisation are actually

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both incredibly clever.

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It's League of Gentlemen Light, isn't it, before League of

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Gentlemen?

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Yeah, I guess so.

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It does have that sort of weird, dark Gothic thing going on.

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Um, an all local.

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Very, very local.

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And in fact, it is a Doctor Who story set in a lot of space

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corridors, which I've complained about sort of quite a lot.

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I think we'll get it again at the end of the season.

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It's a lot of space corridors, but it manages to do something

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different from what we've had for a while.

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And we've observed before.

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I think it's fairly well known that this is the 1st Doctor Who

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story for a very, very long time that hasn't had any returning

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elements that doesn't really reference anything that's happened

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before that can just be understood on its own terms.

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Corridors don't count.

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No that's right.

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This is actually the 1st claustrophobic use of real, the real

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sense of isolation in corridors.

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And again, as we went on and on and on and on and on last episode

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thanks for listening, that the sense of the now is very much at

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the front of this.

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This is a tower block and this is about, we're going to see this

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in rows, aren't we?

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Yeah, it's much more kindly.

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Yeah.

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And so it's a decaying tower block with all of these promises with

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a glossy brochure with, you know, promises of an exciting future

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and happiness and achievement and it's all gone to hell and it's

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inhabited by warring tribes.

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Do you think this was J and T having a go back at Jonathan Powell

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and maybe Doctor Who Bulletin?

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You know, I think that J and T is one of the least political

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producers that we've ever had.

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A political.

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Yeah, and and given that combination with Eric Saywood, who was

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also not interested in doing politics, just meant that we had a

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Doctor Who that supported the status quo and really didn't engage

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with the outside world.

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And this story, I think, is a type of story that Doctor Who has

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done before, and I think we were thinking about the macraterra

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fairly recently, where it's not set on the planet Blizzbloss.

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We don't know what planet it's on.

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It's not set on a planet.

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It's not set on a spaceship or a space station.

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It's set in a big building, and that building, we given no idea

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where it is really how it got here.

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And there is a sort of backstory that doesn't really work and

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doesn't add up.

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And I think it's partly because the ages of all of the people who

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are cast are sort of all wrong.

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So it doesn't add up with what we're told about the backstory.

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But that just doesn't matter because openly allegorical.

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And the idea is that we're illustrating something about society by

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having an artificial and an openly artificial situation created

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where no one has kind of normal names, you know, people have

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titles and stuff or they're called fire escape or bin liner or

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whatever.

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And so it's really just saying something about contemporary

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society.

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Stephen Wyatt, who wrote this will do a similar thing with the

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greatest show in the galaxy, and I think Russell T. Davies will

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really bring this approach to its apotheosis in gridlock.

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Have a drink.

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And gridlock again is openly unrealistic.

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I still have friends who complain that often, I think it's

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superb.

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And, and, you know, I have friends who complain, no one's going to

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drive in a car for 20 years.

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What are you doing now?

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I would say that, again, this one might have slipped onto the

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radar.

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I actually think it's got to do with things like lighting and not

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to do with casting at all or said, although there are some

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questions there and maybe Nicholas Mallet after Mysterious Planet

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although he said he actually ran away from and quit on a job, which

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directors should never do, but he quit on a job doing a German

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mini series filmed in Berlin, written by Pip and Jane Baker to

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come back and do this.

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Go on.

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How do you feel this fits in?

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I think it's directly after time in the Rani?

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It is really getting straight into the critique of modern life in

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a very dark and upfront way that kids can recognise and that older

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people can recognise and it's very much the Judge Dread 2018

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universe.

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Yeah, which is, again, what he's doing in gridlock.

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And so what you have here is on a surface level is a sort of

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critique of modernism in the sense of a building is a machine

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rather than a machine for living, rather than something for human

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beings, the architect creates the building, but doesn't want

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people to spoil it by living in it. you know who said that?

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Le Corbusier, Pierre Generay.

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Do you know what else he said?

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That's not even in the architecture textbooks.

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You've actually got to go in and read his stuff, which I had to do

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at school.

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He was one of the progenitors along with the Bauhaus school that

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they went into Europe, you know, and it's actually the reason we

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had this style of building is in fact the Nazi Party.

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It is, in fact, the excising of the Jewish population of Europe

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that these architects came to America and came to the UK.

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But, um, Le Corb was very famous for saying, the whole design of

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tower blocks is to get people off the streets and to quell nascent

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Marxism.

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The principle, and the reason he got early government funding is

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that if you isolate people onto flaws, with doors that don't face

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each other, with nowhere to gather, with no marketplace, they

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won't be able to have political inclusion.

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Yeah, they won't be able to organise.

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And so this is a story.

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Utterly deliberate.

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Yeah, well, it's a story of a society that's fragmented into

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tribes that are all preying on one another and that are all

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hostile to one another.

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And J.G. Ballard.

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Exactly.

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And that's the other thing.

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High rise, which I won't pretend to have read.

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I did.

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I did back in the day.

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It's okay.

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It's just this story.

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I liked Empire of the Sun, which is the reason he was getting

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nodded to, and that was a film around this time that Spielberg, and

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that's when Ballad.

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Ballard was a fruitcake.

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He was like a Samuel R.

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Delaney.

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Really, Wacko was doing a whole lot of fun stuff, not just

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mushroom results. to, you know, to really, really, but it's good.

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It's worth reading if you like this story.

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I suggest we should all be looking at the things that were going

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on around this era because it's very rich.

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And so very simply the story is that those people learn to work

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together and organise against a murderous authority figure.

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You know, someone who has created this society, given it the shape

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that it has, and then sets about massacring everyone, and the

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people all join together and defeat their oppressors with the

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doctor's encouragement.

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And I think it's classic, it's terrific.

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It's in the tradition of the sun makers, whether the doctor

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arrives and an oppressive society is overthrown within a day.

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And it's, you know, spectacularly angry and fabulous.

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And it's not without its flaws, but I think it's really terrific.

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Yeah, it's funny for me because I grew up in Campbelltown, which

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has a lot of public housing, social housing.

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It's not in the form of tower blocks out there.

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It's in the form of these whole cul-de-sacs full of little town.

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Ramsey Street.

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Yeah.

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But when I went to school, I was, I was from a different area from

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this, it still had some public housing, but it was mostly private

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housing.

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And there were people who looked down on the people living in the

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social housing and even around ads where I went to school.

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It was roughly, I would say, 70% social housing and 30% private

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housing.

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But if you said you came from there, it was assumed you lived in

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social housing and therefore your family was poor and this sat the

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other.

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Now for us as kids, most of us didn't buy into that.

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It was parents, it was people on the parents and citizens

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committee who were overruling people on the parents and citizens

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committee who lived in these houses because, oh, no, you shouldn't

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have a say in the uniforms.

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You shouldn't have a say in what the school spends money on this.

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And yeah, I only found out in the years afterwards.

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And also, I did find out while I was there because one of my best

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friends, lived in a privately owned house, in this area and his

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family were really looked down on.

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And yeah, no, no one deserves to be really looked down on for that

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reason, but it's that kind of thing.

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You've got the caretakers looking down on everyone.

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You've got the resis looking down on the kangs and you've got the

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kangs who know that the caretakers and the resis are corrupt, but

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no one will believe them.

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And again, it's, yeah, it's pitting everyone against each other

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within this environment so they don't notice the evil that's

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living underneath them.

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Much like modern media.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Very much so.

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And again, critical theory was had already assumed that that's the

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base of riding up until this period, this mid-80s period that

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people were consuming pap.

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Warhol said it when he famously said, you know, if we just feed a

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tube from there, from their fundaments, just diet pink, put

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flavouring in it and put it in your mouth, and that's modern

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culture.

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And I think also the queer message continues through this story as

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well because, you know, the kangs are all girls.

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You don't see any young men of their age, except for pecs.

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And I think...

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Plus, I think, you know, you were talking about the chronology of

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this story, Nathan, it's like, you know, this story might work if

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Pex was in his 30s and the gangs were in their very early 20s to

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late teens and the war started 15 years ago.

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So, you know, Pex could have gone because he was 16, but the Kangs

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couldn't go because they were 2 or 3 because, you know, you don't

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see any women in their 30s.

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So presumably the women who were of fighting age went off to fight

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the war as well.

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No, I mean, it doesn't work.

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It's the thinnest possible sort of premise.

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And once you start casting, you know, that pretty young caretaker

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in episode one who gets killed, like why wasn't he offered the

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war?

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I mean, it doesn't work, really.

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Exactly.

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But it's not meant to.

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No.

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And, you know, I think Tilda and Tabby are very clearly coded as

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queer.

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You know, they're they're 2 old ladies living together.

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Nathan will like them because they're cannibals.

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And Tilda's clearly the feeder because...

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No, I'm not and I'm not...

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I am not saying that in terms of, you know, tabby's bigger.

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I'm saying that in terms of we only see tabby eating.

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Like when there's the scene with the rat, Tilda actually makes

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this little snide comment that she didn't have much to eat of it

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because Tabby had the rest.

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But, you know, she's just trying to preserve her own safety.

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It's so clever.

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Yeah.

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And I think also they're a little bit of a pastiche of the Golden

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Girls.

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The Golden Girls were popular at this time.

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You're certainly wearing a lot of nylon, aren't they?

247
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I think they're, yes, as much a pastiche of Coronation Street.

248
00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:14.580
Oh, yeah.

249
00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:15.000
Yeah.

250
00:13:15.059 --> 00:13:18.059
That cannibalism cliffhanger, the cliffhanger at the end of

251
00:13:18.059 --> 00:13:22.080
episode 2 must be actually one of my favourite cliffhangers ever

252
00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:26.879
where Mel's being threatened by a toasting fork and she's got like

253
00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:30.360
a crocheted knee rug over her face and she's screaming and

254
00:13:30.360 --> 00:13:30.659
things.

255
00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:32.460
And it's also beautifully set up.

256
00:13:32.580 --> 00:13:36.179
Richard, couldn't you imagine that happening to Tara King?

257
00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:38.399
I mean, really, that sort of Avengers moment.

258
00:13:38.460 --> 00:13:41.279
That actually, you can imagine that happening in homicide and old

259
00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:41.700
lace.

260
00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:44.460
The Avengers episode that was cobbled together out of a failed

261
00:13:44.460 --> 00:13:48.960
Tara King pilot. and there's mother telling the story of Steve and

262
00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:53.220
Tara to his 2 old arts who greet him with handguns and they'd say

263
00:13:53.220 --> 00:13:54.000
oh, no, they're presents.

264
00:13:54.059 --> 00:13:54.840
We're not about to shoot you.

265
00:13:54.899 --> 00:13:55.379
Really?

266
00:13:55.440 --> 00:13:59.279
Because it is, in itself, a pesticional homage to those old

267
00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:01.019
Hollywood horrors.

268
00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:03.960
It's properly funny and it's well set up too.

269
00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:06.539
But it's also touching on the fact that there were pensioners

270
00:14:06.539 --> 00:14:10.139
freezing in the 80s and starving, literally, because of that just

271
00:14:10.139 --> 00:14:10.559
cards.

272
00:14:10.620 --> 00:14:13.500
And now, Mr. Cameron and Miss May.

273
00:14:13.559 --> 00:14:16.980
So I do think, however, there are production problems.

274
00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:20.340
Oh, the lighting's a hell of a lot better.

275
00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:24.480
Those beautiful bits with silver illuminated from behind.

276
00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:26.820
They've turned the lights down.

277
00:14:26.879 --> 00:14:28.620
You know, we Mallet got that.

278
00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:32.220
He said, no, he wanted to redress the mistakes, the really obvious

279
00:14:32.220 --> 00:14:33.299
mistakes it made in.

280
00:14:33.299 --> 00:14:33.840
I mean, yeah.

281
00:14:33.899 --> 00:14:36.840
It doesn't get all the way to the casting, though, does it?

282
00:14:36.899 --> 00:14:38.039
No, so...

283
00:14:38.100 --> 00:14:39.659
Well, I think the music is terrible.

284
00:14:39.779 --> 00:14:40.740
Oh thank you.

285
00:14:40.980 --> 00:14:45.600
Back to my bet noir, my black Betty, which is Kath McCulloch.

286
00:14:45.659 --> 00:14:46.919
Have you heard the David Snell?

287
00:14:46.980 --> 00:14:47.340
score?

288
00:14:47.460 --> 00:14:48.840
Yeah, I don't like that very much.

289
00:14:49.320 --> 00:14:49.679
Don't you?

290
00:14:49.740 --> 00:14:50.700
I think it's a hell of a lot better.

291
00:14:50.759 --> 00:14:53.399
Yeah, I do think it is better, but it is a bit atonal.

292
00:14:53.519 --> 00:14:57.179
It's kind of like he's heard Dudley Simpson and that's the last

293
00:14:57.179 --> 00:14:58.799
Doctor Who score that he's heard.

294
00:14:59.460 --> 00:15:03.720
It isn't very good, but it is sort of striving to be sort of

295
00:15:03.720 --> 00:15:04.500
atmospheric.

296
00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:06.299
So I think the music's a problem.

297
00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:09.899
I think some of the performances, I mean, they're doing sort of

298
00:15:09.899 --> 00:15:15.600
broad kids TV and, you know, maybe that works given the sort of

299
00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:17.879
hyper reality of kind of the premise.

300
00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:18.960
I don't know.

301
00:15:19.019 --> 00:15:23.399
And I do think that Richard Briars is terrible.

302
00:15:23.460 --> 00:15:24.840
What do you think, Brendan?

303
00:15:24.899 --> 00:15:25.799
No, I agree.

304
00:15:25.860 --> 00:15:26.879
Richard Bryce is terrible.

305
00:15:26.940 --> 00:15:30.000
And if you watch, not in general, just in this.

306
00:15:30.059 --> 00:15:32.820
I really want to disagree, but no, his wife.

307
00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:36.360
Like, you know, everything else everything else I've ever seen him

308
00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:39.960
in, especially The Good Life, of course, Monarch of the Glen.

309
00:15:40.019 --> 00:15:40.620
He is brilliant.

310
00:15:40.679 --> 00:15:41.519
He is a great actor.

311
00:15:41.580 --> 00:15:44.100
But when you watch the making of on DVD.

312
00:15:44.159 --> 00:15:46.679
You find out why he's terrible in this and it's because he treated

313
00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:47.279
it like a joke.

314
00:15:47.340 --> 00:15:48.360
Yeah, he did.

315
00:15:48.419 --> 00:15:53.340
He was playing the very last big sitcom he'd done in the...

316
00:15:53.399 --> 00:15:54.840
I'm just trying to remember what it was called.

317
00:15:54.899 --> 00:15:57.659
Um, ever decreasing circles.

318
00:15:57.779 --> 00:16:00.840
So the show he'd just done. played it exactly the same way.

319
00:16:00.899 --> 00:16:02.039
Yeah.

320
00:16:02.100 --> 00:16:06.600
And I think part of the problem is he says in his interview on the

321
00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:09.480
DVD that the chief caretaker is a little Hitler.

322
00:16:09.539 --> 00:16:13.080
And I just remember seeing on Twitter at some and again, I

323
00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:13.679
apologise.

324
00:16:13.740 --> 00:16:17.399
I didn't save the tweet, so I can't remember who it was, but

325
00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:21.240
someone I follow on Twitter, who is Jewish, just came out with

326
00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:23.820
Richard Briars, how dare you?

327
00:16:23.879 --> 00:16:25.559
The caretaker is not Hitler.

328
00:16:25.620 --> 00:16:27.120
You know, Hitler was a monster.

329
00:16:27.179 --> 00:16:28.440
The caretaker is a bureaucrat.

330
00:16:28.500 --> 00:16:29.879
Hitler wasn't a bureaucrat.

331
00:16:29.940 --> 00:16:31.200
Yeah, no, it's stupid.

332
00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:32.580
Yeah, it's dumb.

333
00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:36.240
His decision, his decision to play it, like whatever the hell he

334
00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:40.019
thinks he's doing in episode for once he's got the great

335
00:16:40.019 --> 00:16:42.299
architect's brain in his head.

336
00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:45.899
I mean, he's clearly striving for someone who's just suffered

337
00:16:45.899 --> 00:16:48.659
brain surgery at the hands of a garbage compactor.

338
00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:54.059
But it's it's a terrible, terrible ill-judged performance and it's

339
00:16:54.059 --> 00:16:57.720
sort of it's sort of horribly ablest in this sort of really

340
00:16:57.720 --> 00:16:58.559
unpleasant way.

341
00:16:58.620 --> 00:17:01.019
There's no menace in it whatsoever.

342
00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:04.680
And, you know, there's very little menace in Crowagon, not to that

343
00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:10.019
point because he's just a pair of neon lights with...

344
00:17:10.019 --> 00:17:12.299
You see, I actually...

345
00:17:12.359 --> 00:17:14.099
I actually really like that.

346
00:17:14.220 --> 00:17:15.359
I think that's super funny.

347
00:17:15.420 --> 00:17:19.500
And I do think that Richard Briar is calling him my pet, you know

348
00:17:19.500 --> 00:17:22.680
in this sort of desperate attempt to enforce some sort of

349
00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:26.759
hierarchy where he's the owner and Croagnon's the pet, but all the

350
00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:30.119
snivelling and cowering that he does shows that it's quite the

351
00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:30.539
other way round.

352
00:17:30.660 --> 00:17:34.200
See, that's the one set of scenes where I like Richard Briars.

353
00:17:34.259 --> 00:17:35.460
I think he gets it right there.

354
00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:40.440
And I think then the main problem with his chief caretaker

355
00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:44.160
portrayal is that the chief caretaker is always on the brink of

356
00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:44.759
losing control.

357
00:17:44.819 --> 00:17:48.779
And so when he does lose control in front of Croagnon, there's no

358
00:17:48.779 --> 00:17:49.140
surprise.

359
00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:52.980
But if he'd played it sort of, oh, no, everything's fine and I'm

360
00:17:52.980 --> 00:17:54.180
completely straight down the line.

361
00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:57.839
Like if he like played it like a stereotypical detective sergeant

362
00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:01.799
on the bill and then falls to pieces in front of Crow Agnon, that's

363
00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:03.839
scary. nuanced it and led up to it.

364
00:18:03.900 --> 00:18:04.500
Yeah, I agree.

365
00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:07.859
But I think the point is that he's a sort of pathetic job's

366
00:18:07.859 --> 00:18:08.099
worth.

367
00:18:08.220 --> 00:18:09.059
You know what I mean?

368
00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:10.980
He might have just seen recent Doctor Who.

369
00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:15.420
Yeah, yeah, he could have said, oh, JNT, can you send me some

370
00:18:15.420 --> 00:18:16.200
tapes to Doctor Who?

371
00:18:16.259 --> 00:18:17.400
JNT sends him timelash.

372
00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:18.660
Oh, that's how I meant to play it.

373
00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:20.759
But then you've got Clive Merrison.

374
00:18:20.819 --> 00:18:22.079
Who is great.

375
00:18:22.140 --> 00:18:22.740
Who's great.

376
00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:25.380
But the thing is, he plays the deputy chief caretaker as someone

377
00:18:25.380 --> 00:18:26.279
who's competent.

378
00:18:26.339 --> 00:18:30.480
And also with a proper fanboy, giant sporting accent.

379
00:18:30.539 --> 00:18:33.180
Can I just mention, can we name check Clive Merrison for a

380
00:18:33.180 --> 00:18:33.660
moment?

381
00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:34.920
I'm so glad we remembered.

382
00:18:34.980 --> 00:18:37.500
He's my favourite Sherlock Holmes.

383
00:18:37.559 --> 00:18:41.160
Up to almost including Jeremy Brett.

384
00:18:41.220 --> 00:18:43.259
So Jeremy Brett from the classic 80s.

385
00:18:43.319 --> 00:18:47.640
You know who was actually tipped to play the chief caretaker, don't

386
00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:47.819
you?

387
00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:53.160
Edward Hardwick, who was one of the Watsons, who was a good Watson

388
00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:53.400
yes.

389
00:18:53.460 --> 00:18:56.339
But I think Clive Merrison is...

390
00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:56.940
I just love him.

391
00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:00.180
Do listen, if you haven't heard the BBC for, they've got Mr. Judy

392
00:19:00.180 --> 00:19:03.240
Dench, Michael Williams playing Watson, he is actually the best

393
00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:04.259
Watson of all time.

394
00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:06.359
He really is extraordinary with Merrison.

395
00:19:06.420 --> 00:19:09.000
They're my favourite audio, no offence to Nick Briggs.

396
00:19:09.059 --> 00:19:11.640
Favourite audio, Sherlock Holmes. you heard them?

397
00:19:11.700 --> 00:19:13.319
No, no, I have heard also.

398
00:19:13.380 --> 00:19:13.920
That's so good.

399
00:19:13.980 --> 00:19:14.460
They're so good.

400
00:19:14.579 --> 00:19:17.099
I mean, of course, he was in... just camping off.

401
00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:20.099
Yeah, speaking of...

402
00:19:20.220 --> 00:19:24.000
I think he's quite wrapped on TV, but he really in everything.

403
00:19:24.059 --> 00:19:25.740
But he's superb on radio.

404
00:19:25.799 --> 00:19:27.960
What did you, look, he's chief caretaker.

405
00:19:28.019 --> 00:19:29.759
I think he's taking at the Mickey as well.

406
00:19:29.819 --> 00:19:33.359
But he's doing the children's TV performance that everyone's doing

407
00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:33.660
I think.

408
00:19:33.779 --> 00:19:37.140
Mind you, I really like the moment where he says, the one

409
00:19:37.140 --> 00:19:39.599
situation where you're allowed to disobey the rules is when the

410
00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:42.299
chief caretaker is just not the chief caretaker.

411
00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:45.599
I think he is playing it for kids TV, but he plays that

412
00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:46.920
realisation quite well.

413
00:19:46.980 --> 00:19:49.859
He then has to do that completely stupid jump over.

414
00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:51.359
Can we talk about the cleaners?

415
00:19:53.099 --> 00:19:55.920
I wanted to love them as much as the war machines.

416
00:19:56.039 --> 00:19:56.880
And I didn't.

417
00:19:56.940 --> 00:20:03.000
I think a big problem is... is the long lingering shots of them

418
00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:04.140
going down corridors.

419
00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:07.259
It is hilarious seeing manicured legs with fluffy slippers

420
00:20:07.259 --> 00:20:07.980
sticking out.

421
00:20:08.099 --> 00:20:08.940
Don't get me wrong.

422
00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:12.359
But I think the problem is you get a long lingering 32nd shot of

423
00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:15.180
them, which Kef McCulloch then has to fill with you to see?

424
00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:16.200
with his score.

425
00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:17.579
Dun, dun, dun, dun.

426
00:20:17.579 --> 00:20:22.200
Just to get the nether regions of Thora herd sticking out of the

427
00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:22.440
back.

428
00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:25.019
And haven't we all wished we'd been there at one point?

429
00:20:25.019 --> 00:20:28.079
You know, I have to say, with the music for this.

430
00:20:28.619 --> 00:20:34.440
I do enjoy it, but I agree a lot of the times it is working

431
00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:35.700
against the drama.

432
00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:40.319
One piece I particularly love, though, is the Kang's greeting

433
00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:45.539
routine with the raising your arms up one at a time and lowering

434
00:20:45.539 --> 00:20:45.779
them.

435
00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:50.339
Because as a kid, I looked at that and I went, it's, I'm going to

436
00:20:50.339 --> 00:20:50.640
hit you.

437
00:20:50.700 --> 00:20:51.900
No, I'm not going to hit you.

438
00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:54.180
I'm not going to hit you, and now I greet you.

439
00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:59.640
They're in this culture where playful violence is how they fight

440
00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:01.740
with their other tribes with the other kangs.

441
00:21:01.859 --> 00:21:04.920
And the only television they have is reruns of Eurovision, because

442
00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:07.980
it honestly all looks like dance moves from the Dutch ensemble.

443
00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:08.940
That's true as well.

444
00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:10.859
But they're showing, I'm not going to hit you with my left hand.

445
00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:13.859
I'm not going to hit you with my right hand and now I'm going to

446
00:21:13.859 --> 00:21:14.519
greet you.

447
00:21:14.579 --> 00:21:16.680
Yeah, I kind of get what they're going for.

448
00:21:16.740 --> 00:21:18.420
Yeah, yeah, subtle and clever.

449
00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:22.140
Yeah, you know, I get their language, which, in a way, it has to

450
00:21:22.140 --> 00:21:25.619
be clunky, so you pick up what they're trying to say, like ice hot

451
00:21:25.619 --> 00:21:26.160
is cool.

452
00:21:26.220 --> 00:21:28.079
High fabion, high fashion.

453
00:21:28.140 --> 00:21:30.960
These are picking up on Marshall McClue in terms, you know.

454
00:21:31.019 --> 00:21:34.619
So again, we're indulging in metacritiques of media.

455
00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:38.160
And he's the one who coined the terms hot and cool.

456
00:21:38.220 --> 00:21:42.480
I won't go into it again. unless you write, unless you ask.

457
00:21:42.539 --> 00:21:43.980
I really will.

458
00:21:44.039 --> 00:21:46.920
But yeah, yeah, they're actually picking...

459
00:21:46.980 --> 00:21:48.539
So what I mean about this thing working on so many different

460
00:21:48.539 --> 00:21:48.839
levels.

461
00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:52.079
This is kind of, you could say kind of sad that it doesn't quite

462
00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:52.500
get there.

463
00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:57.480
But if you look at the etchiness and scratchiness of graphics at

464
00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:00.180
the time and really of the quality of media, I think the fact that

465
00:22:00.180 --> 00:22:03.359
it allows, as you were saying before, Nathan, about Tom and the

466
00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:06.839
Rani, which didn't really do this, it talked about glossy and

467
00:22:06.839 --> 00:22:12.059
glossy itself, was a subversion of the gritty reality of what

468
00:22:12.059 --> 00:22:14.759
these people were going through, whereas here the grit is on the

469
00:22:14.759 --> 00:22:16.619
surface and brought home.

470
00:22:16.680 --> 00:22:19.920
I think it still works as a critique for, you know, a double

471
00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:21.660
whammy of what the story's trying to do.

472
00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:24.599
I don't think the appearance or the look or the styling or even

473
00:22:24.599 --> 00:22:26.759
the casting is actually working against the narrative.

474
00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:31.859
Big finish have kind of done a remake of this story.

475
00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:33.299
It's called Spaceport Fear.

476
00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:34.680
Oh, I just heard that.

477
00:22:34.680 --> 00:22:36.059
With Colin and Bonnie.

478
00:22:36.059 --> 00:22:39.240
The premise is that there's this group of people who've been

479
00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:44.279
locked in a, like an airport lounge, but for spaceships, for a few

480
00:22:44.279 --> 00:22:44.940
generations.

481
00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:47.940
And so you get the corruptions of language, like when people talk

482
00:22:47.940 --> 00:22:48.839
about being children.

483
00:22:48.900 --> 00:22:51.539
They say, oh, no, that's been there since I was carry on.

484
00:22:52.140 --> 00:22:56.519
But I think listening to Spaceport fear, it's because it's more

485
00:22:56.519 --> 00:23:01.200
polished, it's not as successful for me, but also, I look back on

486
00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:04.019
this with the nostalgia of a six-year-old watching.

487
00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:06.480
And one thing I particularly love.

488
00:23:06.539 --> 00:23:09.059
I picked up on this when we were alive, tweeting it a few weeks

489
00:23:09.059 --> 00:23:14.700
ago is I find it hard to imagine Colin Baker in this story because

490
00:23:14.700 --> 00:23:19.859
the doctor with the gangs, he doesn't correct their language.

491
00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:21.660
He doesn't diminish their culture.

492
00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:23.700
He joins in.

493
00:23:23.700 --> 00:23:27.059
Sylvester McCoy is the doctor is a working class doctor.

494
00:23:27.180 --> 00:23:30.420
And we'll see Osmotic influence in that, yeah.

495
00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:34.200
Yeah, and we'll see this all the way through his tenure.

496
00:23:34.259 --> 00:23:37.920
He'll buddy up with the guards who are working the door.

497
00:23:37.980 --> 00:23:41.880
He'll buddy up with the gangs and, you know, he tries to adopt

498
00:23:41.880 --> 00:23:45.299
their language as well to communicate with them and they really

499
00:23:45.299 --> 00:23:46.319
like him as a result.

500
00:23:46.380 --> 00:23:48.900
And in the 1st scene when they meet Mel.

501
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:52.440
Mel does hang back and, you know, I don't want to be a kang.

502
00:23:52.500 --> 00:23:54.839
Well, we don't want you to be a kang.

503
00:23:54.900 --> 00:23:58.259
They like the doctor because even though he's an old star, he

504
00:23:58.259 --> 00:24:02.519
speaks to them on their level, whereas Mel retains her middle

505
00:24:02.519 --> 00:24:03.720
class poshness.

506
00:24:03.900 --> 00:24:06.900
And again, there's that classism going on.

507
00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:08.880
Lower middle class.

508
00:24:08.940 --> 00:24:11.279
Lower middle class poshness.

509
00:24:11.339 --> 00:24:12.599
The upper hand.

510
00:24:12.660 --> 00:24:15.599
It's all shoulder pads and knee-warmers.

511
00:24:15.660 --> 00:24:19.019
Oh, actually, we barely talked about her outfit last week, but

512
00:24:19.019 --> 00:24:20.519
she's got another cracking outfit this week.

513
00:24:20.579 --> 00:24:23.220
I know, she says a white dog. not really one of any colour.

514
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:26.160
No, you're all of them, you...

515
00:24:26.220 --> 00:24:27.240
She's wearing blue.

516
00:24:27.299 --> 00:24:28.799
Why do we have that?

517
00:24:28.859 --> 00:24:30.119
I don't know what I am.

518
00:24:30.180 --> 00:24:31.140
Yeah, actually, you're right.

519
00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:33.119
Maybe that's why they're asking because she's got red hair, but

520
00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:34.140
she's got the blue outfit.

521
00:24:34.200 --> 00:24:36.359
I never thought of that. absolutely no dress scenes.

522
00:24:36.420 --> 00:24:39.660
She is really the carry-on from the Colin era, and you do need

523
00:24:39.660 --> 00:24:39.900
that.

524
00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:43.500
You do need to recognise the immediate past in that I don't really

525
00:24:43.500 --> 00:24:44.220
think she fits in.

526
00:24:44.279 --> 00:24:49.259
For me, Bonnie plays this exactly the same pitch and relativism

527
00:24:49.259 --> 00:24:51.960
that Katie Manning played her part in that she plays it for the

528
00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:55.380
junior audience, whether that was direction or whether that was

529
00:24:55.380 --> 00:24:58.140
Bonnie's feeling for it or whether it's just that the way she read

530
00:24:58.140 --> 00:24:59.819
the lines and thought, what else are you going to do with this?

531
00:24:59.940 --> 00:25:03.660
But also maybe that's where Bonnie's career was at the time too.

532
00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:06.059
She was a panda star and a singing dancing girl.

533
00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:08.400
So she was brought in for the lightness of touch.

534
00:25:09.539 --> 00:25:11.759
But it doesn't work for me at all.

535
00:25:11.819 --> 00:25:15.180
Well, I think next week when she's on location, her performance is

536
00:25:15.180 --> 00:25:15.720
quite different.

537
00:25:15.779 --> 00:25:17.339
It's a bit of mud on her.

538
00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:19.980
Well, it's a little bit more realistic because she's shooting it

539
00:25:19.980 --> 00:25:22.859
in a realistic environment, whereas this does still feel like a

540
00:25:22.859 --> 00:25:26.759
stage and everyone else is going panto in this one.

541
00:25:26.819 --> 00:25:28.619
So I think, yeah.

542
00:25:28.799 --> 00:25:34.200
I kind of like that she gets a pseudo romance with PECs.

543
00:25:34.259 --> 00:25:37.200
And it's not really a romance because we're not doing romance in

544
00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:37.680
this part.

545
00:25:37.740 --> 00:25:39.359
You know, it's all very broad strokes.

546
00:25:39.420 --> 00:25:40.680
And Pex is gay.

547
00:25:40.740 --> 00:25:41.579
And Pex is gay.

548
00:25:41.640 --> 00:25:44.039
I'm glad you mentioned broad strokes because it is more of a strap

549
00:25:44.039 --> 00:25:44.579
on, right?

550
00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:49.319
But 1st of all, there's that great bit where he pulls the lighting

551
00:25:49.319 --> 00:25:50.940
fixture off the wall to impress her.

552
00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:54.599
And her immediate reaction is just, you're destroying something

553
00:25:54.599 --> 00:25:56.279
for no purpose whatsoever.

554
00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:59.220
If you could put that back there and it could serve some purpose.

555
00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:00.000
That'd be great.

556
00:26:00.059 --> 00:26:01.920
But you can't create, you can only destroy.

557
00:26:01.980 --> 00:26:05.700
And I'm like, that is a great statement of what Doctor Who should

558
00:26:05.700 --> 00:26:06.059
be about.

559
00:26:06.119 --> 00:26:08.099
Yes, and what it hasn't been recently.

560
00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:12.059
No, it's like Patrick Trouton and all the crockery in that caravan

561
00:26:12.059 --> 00:26:13.319
in the enemy of the world.

562
00:26:13.380 --> 00:26:14.099
Yeah, yeah.

563
00:26:14.099 --> 00:26:15.240
People make lovely things.

564
00:26:15.299 --> 00:26:17.579
People spend all their time making putting lovely podcasts

565
00:26:17.579 --> 00:26:21.059
together and then other people come along just to destroy them.

566
00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:24.119
But yeah, they get, listen, we're looking at you.

567
00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:28.980
Despite the fact that they do spend like half of episode 3 trapped

568
00:26:28.980 --> 00:26:30.779
in a cupboard that just happens to be a lift.

569
00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:34.079
They get some really lovely moments where like, like where Mel

570
00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:36.720
discovers that Pex has been lying all this time and he's actually

571
00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:42.420
a desserter and she, she is just, she's really quite not upset

572
00:26:42.420 --> 00:26:48.180
with him, but just really sad that he's had to lie to her and...

573
00:26:48.299 --> 00:26:51.119
That nicely shadows what we just saw last night, doesn't it?

574
00:26:51.180 --> 00:26:55.079
We just saw Empress of Mars on TV last night and that really

575
00:26:55.079 --> 00:26:59.039
lovely subtle performance from another dessert.

576
00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:00.960
From another red coated hottie, yes.

577
00:27:01.019 --> 00:27:06.839
In fact, I think Pax is obviously pivotal here, and the very last

578
00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:12.359
shot has the words Pax lives, and 2 sort of Kang colours scrawled

579
00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:12.839
on the wall.

580
00:27:13.799 --> 00:27:18.599
I think that PEX is, and I live tweeted this and got a little bit

581
00:27:18.599 --> 00:27:20.700
of pushback, but I'm going with it.

582
00:27:20.759 --> 00:27:24.720
I think that his storyline is heavily informed by the story of

583
00:27:24.720 --> 00:27:30.720
Jesus, and I think seriously, I think that he is an outcast, his

584
00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:35.160
despised and rejected of men. everyone hates and mocks him.

585
00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:42.900
He, however, sacrifices his life, lays down his life so that a

586
00:27:42.900 --> 00:27:47.160
group of people who are fragmented and at odds and in terrible

587
00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:51.539
danger, unite together, the very last thing that we see is them

588
00:27:51.539 --> 00:27:55.140
having a religious ceremony to honour him.

589
00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:59.460
And then, of course, his ultimate resurrection with the words Pex

590
00:27:59.460 --> 00:28:04.619
lives at the end, their animated by that spirit of self-sacrifice

591
00:28:04.619 --> 00:28:05.940
that he exhibits.

592
00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:10.319
I love the scene where he loses his bottle.

593
00:28:10.380 --> 00:28:13.319
He's got to delay the great architect from getting there, so they

594
00:28:13.319 --> 00:28:15.119
have time to get their plans in place.

595
00:28:15.180 --> 00:28:18.900
And he's stepped up and he's been so brave and everyone's so proud

596
00:28:18.900 --> 00:28:23.220
of him and he knows what's hanging on this, but he still just

597
00:28:23.220 --> 00:28:27.480
can't bring himself to be brave enough to do the right thing.

598
00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:31.440
He has to step in and sacrifice himself instead.

599
00:28:31.500 --> 00:28:35.099
And I think that's so lovely for something where all the

600
00:28:35.099 --> 00:28:40.440
characters are types where none of them have proper names where

601
00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:42.420
there's a level of unreality.

602
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:45.960
There is a little bit of a level of realism there, which I just

603
00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:48.599
think that C.S. Lewis could have written this.

604
00:28:48.660 --> 00:28:49.980
No, he's horrible.

605
00:28:50.039 --> 00:28:51.960
That's what he would have done.

606
00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:53.579
No way Marxist at all.

607
00:28:53.640 --> 00:28:56.700
And it actually, and then it makes the Bonnie Mary Magdalene.

608
00:28:56.819 --> 00:28:59.160
And if it makes Sylvester the Holy Ghost.

609
00:28:59.220 --> 00:29:03.539
See, what I love about that scene is, you know, Pecks tries to run

610
00:29:03.539 --> 00:29:06.119
away from the fight as the doctor is having his head caved in.

611
00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:09.599
And what makes him come back isn't just Mel looking at him, it's

612
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:13.140
him looking at his Kang bracelet and realising he finally belongs

613
00:29:13.140 --> 00:29:17.640
and he's finally accepted for who he is and that's when he lays

614
00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:18.180
down his life.

615
00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:21.059
Do you think that's what they're trying to tell us that Jesus was

616
00:29:21.059 --> 00:29:26.519
actually just a member of one of Leonard Bernstein's West Side

617
00:29:26.519 --> 00:29:27.420
Story gangs, really.

618
00:29:27.480 --> 00:29:31.980
Well, it's all just, which makes, which makes God entirely Old

619
00:29:31.980 --> 00:29:33.539
Testament Jewish and queer.

620
00:29:33.660 --> 00:29:36.480
If he is, in fact, a good story.

621
00:29:36.539 --> 00:29:39.599
Well, we've just said Pex is gay.

622
00:29:39.720 --> 00:29:42.359
It's all making a lot more sense to me.

623
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:47.099
When I say broad strokes early. story that functions on, as you

624
00:29:47.099 --> 00:29:48.119
say, archetypes.

625
00:29:48.180 --> 00:29:52.440
You know, the 3 old ladies who are named are Tilda Tabby and

626
00:29:52.440 --> 00:29:53.640
Maddie.

627
00:29:53.700 --> 00:29:55.380
They're all sort of...

628
00:29:55.440 --> 00:29:56.279
Oh, yeah.

629
00:29:56.279 --> 00:29:59.220
They're too... behind Brendan right now.

630
00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:02.339
Yeah, then you've got the gangs who are all named after

631
00:30:02.339 --> 00:30:03.539
architectural features.

632
00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:06.599
Binliner, fire escape, drinking fountain.

633
00:30:06.660 --> 00:30:09.359
And yet this really is abominable.

634
00:30:09.420 --> 00:30:11.640
It's a, it just doesn't work.

635
00:30:11.700 --> 00:30:12.480
It doesn't hold together.

636
00:30:12.539 --> 00:30:15.119
I know, we're all so nice about everything.

637
00:30:15.180 --> 00:30:16.140
But it doesn't, does it?

638
00:30:16.200 --> 00:30:18.420
I mean, there's great little moments, but it doesn't hold

639
00:30:18.420 --> 00:30:18.839
together.

640
00:30:18.900 --> 00:30:24.119
Well, Gareth Roberts once said that if season 24 had had tone

641
00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:27.299
meetings, the way that the new series does and everyone was on the

642
00:30:27.299 --> 00:30:28.259
same page with tone.

643
00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:31.380
And if it was put on Saturday night with the same level of

644
00:30:31.380 --> 00:30:33.059
advertisement of the Trial of the Time Lord.

645
00:30:33.180 --> 00:30:34.619
He says it would have got double the ratings.

646
00:30:34.680 --> 00:30:36.839
He's like, there's nothing wrong with the script.

647
00:30:36.900 --> 00:30:38.160
There's nothing wrong with the direction.

648
00:30:38.220 --> 00:30:39.420
There's nothing wrong with the performance.

649
00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:40.559
They're just all pulling in different directions.

650
00:30:40.619 --> 00:30:42.359
Getty Wyatt was a real coup.

651
00:30:42.420 --> 00:30:46.380
And we have to say, GNT had him on board before Cartwall had come

652
00:30:46.380 --> 00:30:49.980
along. because of the play clause, which also had, I think

653
00:30:49.980 --> 00:30:51.359
Elizabeth Spriggs in it, didn't it?

654
00:30:51.420 --> 00:30:54.000
It was a send-up of cats and it was 2 old ladies.

655
00:30:54.059 --> 00:30:57.180
It was actually kind of like vicious, but without Ian McCellen or

656
00:30:57.180 --> 00:30:59.160
whoever the other old lovey was.

657
00:30:59.220 --> 00:31:02.160
I always say Patrick Stewart, but it's actually Derek Jacoby.

658
00:31:02.220 --> 00:31:03.839
You never see them in the same room together.

659
00:31:04.140 --> 00:31:07.500
I have some sympathy for people who complain that it doesn't quite

660
00:31:07.500 --> 00:31:07.859
work.

661
00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:12.480
And I do think that season 24 does take a while to kind of hit its

662
00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:13.200
stride.

663
00:31:13.319 --> 00:31:17.220
And I do think there's one story in it that isn't particularly

664
00:31:17.220 --> 00:31:19.440
successful, but I don't think it's this one.

665
00:31:19.500 --> 00:31:22.799
Yeah, for me, this is the one that isn't particularly successful

666
00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:24.119
but we'll go.

667
00:31:24.180 --> 00:31:27.420
Yeah, well, I think it's got enough going on that it overcomes the

668
00:31:27.420 --> 00:31:30.779
flaws in the production. which are undoubtedly present.

669
00:31:30.839 --> 00:31:34.500
And there's joyfulness and there's, you can see there's a willing

670
00:31:34.500 --> 00:31:39.359
intent to do a lot, not just to do good, but to make it messy and

671
00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:39.779
interesting.

672
00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:41.519
Yeah, and it is messy.

673
00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:42.539
It is experimental.

674
00:31:42.599 --> 00:31:44.880
It's not clean and tidy.

675
00:31:44.940 --> 00:31:46.920
We haven't seen it before, have we?

676
00:31:46.980 --> 00:31:49.319
No, and it doesn't fit into the hooniverse either.

677
00:31:49.380 --> 00:31:50.160
Do you know what I mean?

678
00:31:50.220 --> 00:31:53.940
There's no references to the tin clavic minds of Raga or anything

679
00:31:53.940 --> 00:31:55.980
like that. disappoint you at all.

680
00:31:56.039 --> 00:31:57.480
No, no, no, no.

681
00:31:57.539 --> 00:31:59.519
It didn't need a pteraleptyl in it.

682
00:31:59.579 --> 00:32:02.039
It's functioning quite well without that.

683
00:32:02.099 --> 00:32:04.259
You know, it had no monsters.

684
00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:07.079
It was actually Cartmore's thing to push the cleaners to make them

685
00:32:07.079 --> 00:32:08.460
the robot monster.

686
00:32:08.460 --> 00:32:10.500
Wow, that's surprising, considering...

687
00:32:10.619 --> 00:32:12.720
ANT is so determined to have a marketable monster.

688
00:32:12.779 --> 00:32:13.799
Didn't have a monster.

689
00:32:13.859 --> 00:32:14.220
Yeah.

690
00:32:14.220 --> 00:32:17.400
And that stupid crab thing in the, which I actually think is

691
00:32:17.400 --> 00:32:18.059
terribly cute.

692
00:32:18.119 --> 00:32:21.660
The Toyota design crab that's living in the terrible pool.

693
00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:22.740
That's really cute.

694
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:24.119
It's like some...

695
00:32:24.119 --> 00:32:28.079
It's like Koreans being given Thunderbirds to Remo.

696
00:32:29.819 --> 00:32:32.519
Tamagotchi TV.

697
00:32:33.480 --> 00:32:37.079
Did you know there's actually Paradise Towers apartments on the

698
00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:37.680
Gold Coast?

699
00:32:37.740 --> 00:32:38.160
Stop it.

700
00:32:39.059 --> 00:32:42.299
Fully horrendous to anyone who'd care to look it up.

701
00:32:42.359 --> 00:32:46.619
And as mentioned earlier, of course, Maddie is played by Judy

702
00:32:46.619 --> 00:32:51.119
Cornwell completing the 3rd of 3 annual guest appearances by

703
00:32:51.119 --> 00:32:53.099
keeping up appearances, main actors.

704
00:32:53.460 --> 00:32:56.160
Oh, God, it's true.

705
00:32:56.220 --> 00:32:57.660
Yeah, she's dazy.

706
00:32:57.720 --> 00:33:00.960
So yeah, we had Onslow last year and we had Richard.

707
00:33:01.019 --> 00:33:01.740
The year before.

708
00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:07.140
Cyril Cusack's daughter or granddaughter as one of the kings, the

709
00:33:07.140 --> 00:33:08.579
leader of the Blue Kings owner.

710
00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:09.299
Yes, yes, of course.

711
00:33:09.420 --> 00:33:12.240
And of course, he was up for the casting alongside Billy.

712
00:33:12.299 --> 00:33:13.500
Yes.

713
00:33:13.559 --> 00:33:15.779
James Cyril Cusa again.

714
00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:17.700
Yeah, so yeah, that's Catherine Cusack.

715
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:20.279
And also as Fire Escape, we have Julie Brennan.

716
00:33:20.339 --> 00:33:25.200
Yeah, Mrs. Mrs. Mark Strickson. of the time she was the one I said

717
00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:27.059
I was awful that they dyed his hair, orange.

718
00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:27.779
Everyone looked at him.

719
00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:28.740
It was appalling.

720
00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:31.380
He was so self-conscious and he had a dreadful time.

721
00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:33.900
She would never shut up about it.

722
00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:38.279
And then all of a sudden, she was no longer Mrs. Drickson.

723
00:33:38.339 --> 00:33:41.519
I was going to say all of a sudden she's put in red for this

724
00:33:41.640 --> 00:33:43.799
funnier and crueller.

725
00:33:43.859 --> 00:33:44.460
I like it.

726
00:33:44.519 --> 00:33:48.960
But oh, how I adore the scenes of Sylvester telling the kangs

727
00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:50.160
about their history.

728
00:33:50.220 --> 00:33:53.880
I love them all sitting down to watch the video and drinking

729
00:33:53.880 --> 00:33:54.660
lemonade.

730
00:33:55.079 --> 00:33:57.180
Curiously refreshing.

731
00:33:57.240 --> 00:33:59.880
Yeah, they even take the piss out of Pepsi and COVID.

732
00:33:59.940 --> 00:34:00.599
Really good.

733
00:34:00.660 --> 00:34:03.180
Yeah, you know, I have to agree with you, Richard.

734
00:34:03.240 --> 00:34:08.099
It's it is a mess, but it's a mess that everyone wants to try to

735
00:34:08.099 --> 00:34:10.619
make good except for Richard Bryars.

736
00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:13.920
Everyone wants to try to make this entertaining TV. everyone just

737
00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:15.480
has different ideas about how to achieve it.

738
00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:18.659
It should be a mess because the context is messy.

739
00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:20.940
Does it work in the way that Horns of Nimon works?

740
00:34:21.059 --> 00:34:25.079
When I watched it for the 1st time, I thought, ooh, it's Graham

741
00:34:25.079 --> 00:34:27.420
Williams back, you know, there's this sort of...

742
00:34:27.420 --> 00:34:28.500
Yeah, it does, doesn't it?

743
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:31.440
I actually think in retrospect, it's not as witty as that.

744
00:34:31.500 --> 00:34:34.860
It's not as detached and ironic as that.

745
00:34:34.920 --> 00:34:36.420
It's not slide in the way.

746
00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:40.079
I think it is much more straightforward and a bit more earnest and

747
00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:41.699
political. also young.

748
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:45.360
Yeah, in the way that William's stories never were.

749
00:34:45.420 --> 00:34:45.900
Yeah.

750
00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:46.800
No, no, no.

751
00:34:46.860 --> 00:34:49.500
There was a kind of level of irony.

752
00:34:49.559 --> 00:34:52.920
We were always being told what was funny by the older

753
00:34:52.920 --> 00:34:55.440
undergraduates in Williams era.

754
00:34:55.500 --> 00:34:59.039
It was always, yes, Tom and Lala are students, but their final

755
00:34:59.039 --> 00:35:01.739
years, and they already know everything and they're terribly

756
00:35:01.739 --> 00:35:02.340
sophisticated.

757
00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:04.500
They probably smoke behind the toilet block.

758
00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:06.420
Those sorts of kids.

759
00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:09.780
Whereas this lot, no, we're right here and now.

760
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:12.179
Yeah, I think that's right.

761
00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:15.300
I think it is much more serious, much more politically serious, and

762
00:35:15.300 --> 00:35:18.059
it really wants to do something that Doctor Who hasn't done for a

763
00:35:18.059 --> 00:35:22.079
long time, where Doctor Who has been deliberately trying to be a

764
00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:27.539
political and has only occasionally inadvertently stumbled into

765
00:35:27.539 --> 00:35:30.960
sort of horrific right wing militaristic messages just out of

766
00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:32.639
sheer kind of incompetence.

767
00:35:32.820 --> 00:35:40.019
And so, however flawed this is as a production, I just think it's

768
00:35:40.019 --> 00:35:42.780
really, really amazing.

769
00:35:42.840 --> 00:35:44.880
It's a great breath of fresh air.

770
00:35:44.940 --> 00:35:47.519
And if you, you know, don't aim high.

771
00:35:47.579 --> 00:35:48.719
Do you know what I mean?

772
00:35:48.780 --> 00:35:51.659
You just produce the same space corridors every week.

773
00:35:51.719 --> 00:35:52.800
You can show.

774
00:35:52.860 --> 00:35:54.900
But if you build high, you have a chance at happiness.

775
00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:57.059
The thing is, I love that.

776
00:35:57.119 --> 00:36:00.780
And when I am in stressful situations and when I am unhappy, I get

777
00:36:00.780 --> 00:36:03.119
a voice in my head that says build high for happiness.

778
00:36:03.179 --> 00:36:04.679
It's a lovely sentiment.

779
00:36:04.739 --> 00:36:06.900
Look what you don't, Andrew, come.

780
00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:11.219
But going back to, you know, Doctor Who is now suddenly being

781
00:36:11.219 --> 00:36:17.099
political, I have to wonder if the cancellation slash hiatus is

782
00:36:17.099 --> 00:36:21.000
partially responsible for that because I'm reading John Nathan

783
00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:26.159
Turner's biography by Richard Marson totally tasteless, which was

784
00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:29.159
previously published as The Scandalous Life and Times of John

785
00:36:29.159 --> 00:36:29.940
Nathan Turner.

786
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:36.119
And, of course, he was a producer of television in Thatcher's

787
00:36:36.119 --> 00:36:40.860
Britain, where, as we've discussed, gay either wasn't talked about

788
00:36:40.860 --> 00:36:44.039
or it was something to be looked down upon and shunned and

789
00:36:44.039 --> 00:36:44.519
shamed.

790
00:36:44.579 --> 00:36:49.320
I think John Nathan Turner's apoliticalism in producing Doctor Who

791
00:36:49.320 --> 00:36:54.719
was as much avoidance as it was self-preservation.

792
00:36:54.780 --> 00:36:58.679
I think he felt that he couldn't put political messages into the

793
00:36:58.679 --> 00:36:58.980
program.

794
00:36:59.039 --> 00:37:00.179
Do you think he wanted to?

795
00:37:00.239 --> 00:37:04.079
I don't know whether he wanted to, but I think by that point

796
00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:07.920
having been at the BBC for so long, I think it had just become 2nd

797
00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:08.820
nature to conceal.

798
00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:12.900
So when Andrew Cartmel comes along, 1st of all, he's got this

799
00:37:12.900 --> 00:37:15.239
political idea...

800
00:37:15.239 --> 00:37:16.440
Yeah, he's straight.

801
00:37:16.500 --> 00:37:19.800
But also, the show's already been cancelled.

802
00:37:19.860 --> 00:37:23.340
Why not start kicking the hornet's nest when no one's watching

803
00:37:23.340 --> 00:37:23.639
anyway?

804
00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:26.039
That's what I mean about Indian summer because this is just this

805
00:37:26.039 --> 00:37:30.719
brief respite. resuscitation. where they have nothing to lose.

806
00:37:30.780 --> 00:37:31.679
No one's really watching.

807
00:37:31.679 --> 00:37:35.219
And so they can start to be crazy and experimental.

808
00:37:35.340 --> 00:37:36.300
And I think that's terrific.

809
00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:39.360
And there's something you said before on the podcast, Brendan, is

810
00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:42.719
you know, you can't make that's not political.

811
00:37:42.780 --> 00:37:45.780
You know, like, that's a very profound statement.

812
00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:48.840
We go back to Walter Benjamin, again, who I wanted to cite in a

813
00:37:48.840 --> 00:37:52.380
previous episode, Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction, when

814
00:37:52.380 --> 00:37:56.159
you say that all things are reduced and all things are pap and all

815
00:37:56.159 --> 00:37:59.880
things are repeated, but that doesn't necessarily devalue the

816
00:37:59.880 --> 00:38:02.579
message innate in each article.

817
00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:05.699
And the fact that it's mass produced and the fact that it's

818
00:38:05.699 --> 00:38:06.059
everywhere.

819
00:38:06.119 --> 00:38:09.659
It doesn't make these lives anymore dissolute or any more

820
00:38:09.659 --> 00:38:10.260
meaningless.

821
00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:10.679
In fact.

822
00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:15.420
Yeah, yeah, well, I think I think that what ended up happening was

823
00:38:15.420 --> 00:38:20.280
that Doctor Who failed to engage with the outside world at all.

824
00:38:20.340 --> 00:38:24.659
And by default, that's a support of the status quo, the idea that

825
00:38:24.659 --> 00:38:28.980
you know, the obsession of Doctor Who Monster book reading

826
00:38:28.980 --> 00:38:32.579
teenagers is the most important thing that we want to address in

827
00:38:32.579 --> 00:38:36.539
this television program, just kind of the subtext of that is

828
00:38:36.539 --> 00:38:39.420
because basically everything's okay.

829
00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:43.679
And this is what we can afford to expand energy worrying about.

830
00:38:43.739 --> 00:38:47.099
And the deliberate rejection of that.

831
00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:50.940
There's nothing here, that lovers of the Doctor Who monster book.

832
00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:56.280
There's no points at which you can go back to it to verify that a

833
00:38:56.280 --> 00:38:58.619
reference to the pteroreptils is correct.

834
00:38:58.679 --> 00:39:04.679
All that you've got instead is a political message about, you know

835
00:39:04.679 --> 00:39:07.800
like a kind of Marxist political message in a sense.

836
00:39:07.860 --> 00:39:12.840
I mean, any society that you depict is inhabiting a building full

837
00:39:12.840 --> 00:39:15.719
of different floors, you know, you start to think about

838
00:39:15.719 --> 00:39:17.820
stratification and things.

839
00:39:17.880 --> 00:39:19.860
That's what Benjamin touched on.

840
00:39:19.860 --> 00:39:24.659
And again, the integration of this and the Marxism and with

841
00:39:24.659 --> 00:39:28.320
postmodernism is that you can take detritus, but still find

842
00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:30.840
meaning because there are individual lives within this.

843
00:39:30.900 --> 00:39:35.760
This was all coming out of great despair after the war when we

844
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:38.940
expected things to be fantastic and we expect, you know, that

845
00:39:38.940 --> 00:39:43.559
golden age, which is what we came to with Billy and with Pat, that

846
00:39:43.559 --> 00:39:44.880
there was this great expectation.

847
00:39:44.940 --> 00:39:48.960
And then there was a sort of reconditioning, if you like, rather

848
00:39:48.960 --> 00:39:52.380
than a reconnection, and the Tories took power again, and there

849
00:39:52.380 --> 00:39:55.320
was the energy crisis, and there were all the stories, when you

850
00:39:55.320 --> 00:39:58.440
could see with Pertwi, before the rush again of youth and

851
00:39:58.440 --> 00:40:02.880
reclaiming the lost hope, which is Tom, you've had Doctor Who

852
00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:05.460
always touching on the political pulse at the time.

853
00:40:05.519 --> 00:40:06.480
We're getting that now.

854
00:40:06.539 --> 00:40:08.760
Yes, we live in despairing times.

855
00:40:08.820 --> 00:40:09.960
Yes, there isn't funding.

856
00:40:10.019 --> 00:40:11.940
Yes, pensioners are freezing all the rest of it.

857
00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:15.420
Education is starting to cost, but we can still reclaim the

858
00:40:15.420 --> 00:40:18.539
meaning of our lives and create our own subcultures and our own

859
00:40:18.539 --> 00:40:22.679
what the ruling class would call deviant we actually call life and

860
00:40:22.679 --> 00:40:23.159
art.

861
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:25.260
In terms of art.

862
00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:28.260
There is a video game I funded on Kickstarter.

863
00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:31.260
This is going somewhere called ukulele.

864
00:40:31.320 --> 00:40:34.739
It's building on an old series of games called Banjo Kazooie, the

865
00:40:34.739 --> 00:40:36.239
original programmers, it's a British game.

866
00:40:36.300 --> 00:40:39.599
And what happened was it was massively funded.

867
00:40:39.659 --> 00:40:43.079
It was fully funded within 38 minutes on Kickstarter, 175,000

868
00:40:43.079 --> 00:40:44.280
pounds. naked.

869
00:40:44.340 --> 00:40:48.480
Ouch, actually, those strings hurt when they snap. ended up with

870
00:40:48.480 --> 00:40:50.579
2500000 pounds funding.

871
00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:51.000
Yeah.

872
00:40:51.059 --> 00:40:55.619
Now, a fan of their games, a gamer with a YouTube channel. his

873
00:40:55.619 --> 00:41:00.840
handler is John Tron, and pretty much he kind of said, hey guys, I

874
00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:01.500
love your stuff.

875
00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:02.579
I've pre-ought the game.

876
00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:04.019
You're so wonderful.

877
00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:06.179
I would have loved to have been in it. they're like, well, why

878
00:41:06.179 --> 00:41:07.079
don't you play a voice in the game?

879
00:41:07.139 --> 00:41:09.119
So they recorded his voice, da da da.

880
00:41:09.179 --> 00:41:13.440
About 2 months before release, he went on this massive anti

881
00:41:12.360 --> 00:41:18.539
immigrant rant, kind of pro-Trump. what have you and then kind of

882
00:41:18.539 --> 00:41:19.500
doubled down on it.

883
00:41:19.619 --> 00:41:21.900
And they removed him from the game.

884
00:41:22.019 --> 00:41:26.639
And the thing is, no one asked them to, but they said when, you

885
00:41:26.639 --> 00:41:28.380
know, we're not comfortable with him representing.

886
00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:30.300
And of course, there was a backlash against that.

887
00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:32.940
Oh, you know, this is censorship, et cetera, et cetera.

888
00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:37.380
But it is kind of an example of you cannot make art that is not

889
00:41:37.380 --> 00:41:41.460
political and who you choose to have involved in that art has a

890
00:41:41.460 --> 00:41:42.840
political message to it as well.

891
00:41:42.900 --> 00:41:45.300
The Enders game movie a couple of years ago.

892
00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:48.659
The studio desperately tried to say, oh, you know, it's not about

893
00:41:48.659 --> 00:41:52.320
the politics contained within the story, it's not about the

894
00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:55.559
politics of the author, and lots of people said, ah, no, actually

895
00:41:55.559 --> 00:41:57.539
it is, because it is pushing that idea.

896
00:41:58.019 --> 00:42:00.239
And not critiquing it.

897
00:42:00.300 --> 00:42:03.059
You know, you haven't used this as an opportunity to update the

898
00:42:03.059 --> 00:42:03.300
story.

899
00:42:03.420 --> 00:42:06.840
It's just kind of a straightforward adaptation.

900
00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:08.639
And you know what?

901
00:42:08.760 --> 00:42:15.239
If people want to put out that kind of art, that says morally

902
00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:19.559
dubious things, I think it is important that that art is

903
00:42:19.559 --> 00:42:20.340
experienced.

904
00:42:20.460 --> 00:42:23.039
But it cannot be above question.

905
00:42:24.179 --> 00:42:28.739
And so when people, for instance, might look back at the Tom Baker

906
00:42:28.739 --> 00:42:32.880
era and say, oh no, you can't criticise Hinchcliffe, you know

907
00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:33.780
Hinchcliffe was wonderful.

908
00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:35.519
Well, we were very critical of Hinchcliffe.

909
00:42:35.579 --> 00:42:39.900
And I think it's equally true here that Colin Baker and Sylvester

910
00:42:39.900 --> 00:42:43.019
McCoy at the time and in the years afterwards came in for a fair

911
00:42:43.019 --> 00:42:43.800
bit of a kicking.

912
00:42:43.800 --> 00:42:48.059
And there has been a reappraisal of them, especially in the DVD

913
00:42:48.059 --> 00:42:49.440
market and after the new series.

914
00:42:49.500 --> 00:42:53.159
But I think we've said this before as well.

915
00:42:53.219 --> 00:42:55.679
There never was a golden age of Doctor Who.

916
00:42:55.800 --> 00:42:57.539
You know, there are ears.

917
00:42:57.539 --> 00:42:59.880
There are ears that are...

918
00:43:01.199 --> 00:43:03.420
It's like he reached down my throat.

919
00:43:03.480 --> 00:43:07.619
But, you know, objectively, there's no golden age of Doctor Who.

920
00:43:07.619 --> 00:43:09.119
Personally, there certainly is.

921
00:43:09.179 --> 00:43:11.579
That's the thing, and that's okay.

922
00:43:11.639 --> 00:43:14.039
And it's okay to say that.

923
00:43:14.039 --> 00:43:17.760
And it's okay for friend of the podcast, Bernard, to make fun of

924
00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:21.900
us for saying that snake dance is a neglected German.

925
00:43:21.960 --> 00:43:23.699
Are we 20 years behind the rest of the world?

926
00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:25.800
That's okay because that's dialogue.

927
00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:31.920
That's dialogue about how we experience art and how we experience

928
00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:32.519
the world.

929
00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:35.400
And that's really valuable.

930
00:43:35.460 --> 00:43:40.380
And the only time you lose that is when you kind of say, oh no

931
00:43:40.380 --> 00:43:40.920
you're just wrong.

932
00:43:40.980 --> 00:43:44.579
Like, Richard, you know, you've said just now that you kind of

933
00:43:44.579 --> 00:43:46.980
consider this story to be quite a mess.

934
00:43:47.039 --> 00:43:49.679
Oh, I think it's extraordinary and beautiful, but I don't think it

935
00:43:49.679 --> 00:43:50.760
just doesn't gel on screen.

936
00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:52.679
Whereas for me, it gels a lot more.

937
00:43:52.739 --> 00:43:54.539
And that's okay.

938
00:43:54.599 --> 00:43:58.559
You know, we don't have to agree on these things, but that is also

939
00:43:58.559 --> 00:44:00.840
a part of the political and personal experience.

940
00:44:01.019 --> 00:44:03.900
I'm surprised how watchable I found it when I, as I say, it was

941
00:44:03.900 --> 00:44:07.320
one of the sealed tombs of wrestle on copies that I just never

942
00:44:07.320 --> 00:44:10.260
unearthed, and, you know, it's been sitting gathering dust.

943
00:44:10.320 --> 00:44:11.940
No, well, I'm fond of this one.

944
00:44:11.940 --> 00:44:16.380
And on many levels, it doesn't work, but it is the show for the

945
00:44:16.380 --> 00:44:19.739
very, very 1st time in a very, very long time trying to do

946
00:44:19.739 --> 00:44:21.179
something new.

947
00:44:21.239 --> 00:44:23.699
Yes Yeah, this is a whole new show.

948
00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:25.980
And yet I can see Pat in it.

949
00:44:26.039 --> 00:44:29.099
I could even see pertly in this one. you know?

950
00:44:29.219 --> 00:44:29.699
Yeah.

951
00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:33.119
I honestly just can't imagine Colin in it and I love...

952
00:44:33.179 --> 00:44:33.659
I love.

953
00:44:33.719 --> 00:44:35.760
Actually, yeah, Tom would laud it over a bit.

954
00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:36.960
Tom would be awful.

955
00:44:37.019 --> 00:44:38.519
No, I think Pertwee would as well.

956
00:44:38.579 --> 00:44:39.719
I think you need someone.

957
00:44:39.719 --> 00:44:42.000
But I think Purby was a bit kinder and more subtle.

958
00:44:42.059 --> 00:44:43.380
Especially with the lids.

959
00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:46.800
Actually, you know who I think would be the one other doctor who'd

960
00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:48.360
be totally brilliant in this Billy.

961
00:44:48.420 --> 00:44:50.280
Imagine Billy with the cag.

962
00:44:50.400 --> 00:44:52.800
Flirting with them all the dirty old scrubber.

963
00:44:52.860 --> 00:44:53.219
He would.

964
00:44:53.280 --> 00:44:56.519
I'm not a drinking fountain that I prefer a bottle of gin to any

965
00:44:56.519 --> 00:44:56.699
day.

966
00:44:57.239 --> 00:44:59.159
He would be amazing.

967
00:44:59.219 --> 00:45:02.219
And it does actually feel a bit, except, of course, that would

968
00:45:02.219 --> 00:45:05.159
have been cataclysmic because these things were being built at the

969
00:45:05.159 --> 00:45:05.400
time.

970
00:45:05.460 --> 00:45:07.920
And celebrate it.

971
00:45:07.980 --> 00:45:11.519
They do say that the birth of post-modernism is actually 1972 and

972
00:45:11.519 --> 00:45:16.619
it has a date. the end of June, 1972, when the Grand Pruitt ego

973
00:45:16.619 --> 00:45:17.460
isn't that a great name?

974
00:45:17.519 --> 00:45:22.199
Building estate was destroyed, and it's from the La Corbusio

975
00:45:22.199 --> 00:45:24.960
school, and it won awards when it was built only in the early

976
00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:26.280
60s.

977
00:45:26.340 --> 00:45:30.539
But it was high rise for housing development for people on

978
00:45:30.539 --> 00:45:33.239
pensions and such like, and there were drugs.

979
00:45:33.300 --> 00:45:36.599
There was active gang warfare in the buildings, all the rest of

980
00:45:36.599 --> 00:45:36.780
it.

981
00:45:36.840 --> 00:45:40.920
So that's only, yeah, 1972 is the death of modernism, but, you

982
00:45:40.920 --> 00:45:42.179
know, we've got there in the end.

983
00:45:42.239 --> 00:45:44.159
It might have taken us 15 years, but we're there now.

984
00:45:44.460 --> 00:45:47.400
Speaking of Billy, something I didn't mention last week.

985
00:45:47.460 --> 00:45:52.260
Between season 23 and 24, of course, JNT thought he wasn't coming

986
00:45:52.260 --> 00:45:55.739
back, he went off on holiday and came back to 2 messages.

987
00:45:55.800 --> 00:45:57.900
One, you're still producer of Doctor Who and two. you have to fire

988
00:45:57.900 --> 00:45:58.679
Colin Baker.

989
00:45:58.739 --> 00:46:00.480
You have to fire.

990
00:46:00.599 --> 00:46:01.440
Colin Baker.

991
00:46:01.500 --> 00:46:02.699
Yeah. you, Jonathan Powell.

992
00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:05.039
Instead of having like 9 months to prepare for the season.

993
00:46:05.099 --> 00:46:06.719
He had two?

994
00:46:06.780 --> 00:46:09.539
I think I think 2 before they had to start briefing directors.

995
00:46:09.599 --> 00:46:12.659
Actually, yeah, and possibly 2 before they had to start filming.

996
00:46:12.719 --> 00:46:16.739
But because John didn't expect to be there.

997
00:46:16.800 --> 00:46:20.639
And, you know, he was tired of working on the show and he thought

998
00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:21.719
he was finally free of it.

999
00:46:21.780 --> 00:46:24.239
He called in Sidney Newman for advice.

1000
00:46:24.360 --> 00:46:26.219
This is amazing.

1001
00:46:26.280 --> 00:46:27.900
I'd forgotten all of this.

1002
00:46:27.960 --> 00:46:28.860
Have you read the letter?

1003
00:46:28.920 --> 00:46:30.300
Oh my god, it's insane.

1004
00:46:30.360 --> 00:46:32.820
So, Nathan, do you know my story?

1005
00:46:32.880 --> 00:46:35.219
And verity was also brought in.

1006
00:46:35.340 --> 00:46:36.360
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1007
00:46:36.420 --> 00:46:37.019
Or consultant.

1008
00:46:37.079 --> 00:46:39.539
She said, I've got better things to do with my life.

1009
00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:39.900
Thank you.

1010
00:46:39.960 --> 00:46:43.860
Yeah, okay, Sydney. 93 has no idea where he is.

1011
00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:44.940
Ask him.

1012
00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:48.659
Sidney Newman's ideas included an older doctor again.

1013
00:46:48.719 --> 00:46:50.820
So get back to the Billy idea. told them to come.

1014
00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:51.719
Who did he suggest?

1015
00:46:51.780 --> 00:46:55.380
He said, you must recast Patrick Trouser.

1016
00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:55.920
Oh, yes.

1017
00:46:55.980 --> 00:46:58.860
He's still venerable and virile.

1018
00:46:58.920 --> 00:47:00.119
He still moves about.

1019
00:47:00.179 --> 00:47:01.079
Yeah, he's still got it.

1020
00:47:01.139 --> 00:47:02.639
He wanted him.

1021
00:47:02.699 --> 00:47:04.559
He died on the job.

1022
00:47:04.619 --> 00:47:07.380
Yeah, must not know how to control the ship.

1023
00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:09.360
He must want to go home.

1024
00:47:09.480 --> 00:47:13.320
And then he must regenerate into a woman person.

1025
00:47:13.619 --> 00:47:17.460
But not a Wonder Woman because we've had too many of these strong

1026
00:47:17.460 --> 00:47:21.119
strident dynasty ladies, but more on her later.

1027
00:47:21.179 --> 00:47:24.119
He must have 22 companions.

1028
00:47:24.179 --> 00:47:26.340
Perhaps brother and sister.

1029
00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:29.039
John, no, not John.

1030
00:47:29.099 --> 00:47:29.760
Go on.

1031
00:47:29.820 --> 00:47:34.199
But okay, yeah, so brother and sister, aged, I think. 17 and 13.

1032
00:47:34.380 --> 00:47:35.699
Aged annoyingly.

1033
00:47:35.820 --> 00:47:39.659
And the sister who is the younger one would have her hair in

1034
00:47:39.659 --> 00:47:41.400
pigtails with John Lennon's spectacles.

1035
00:47:41.460 --> 00:47:44.940
And when she gets upset or stressed, she plays the trumpet.

1036
00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:45.840
Oh dear.

1037
00:47:45.900 --> 00:47:48.239
But she lost it.

1038
00:47:48.300 --> 00:47:52.380
She's a bit acey, though, in the way he just, or perhaps is a

1039
00:47:52.380 --> 00:47:55.199
Malange, again, because the brother was a tagger.

1040
00:47:55.260 --> 00:47:57.239
The brother sprays graffiti on everything.

1041
00:47:57.300 --> 00:47:59.579
You know, he had some modern ideas in there.

1042
00:47:59.699 --> 00:48:01.980
This is not the young people in the industry.

1043
00:48:02.039 --> 00:48:02.519
Yeah.

1044
00:48:02.579 --> 00:48:07.500
I think they just all had an enormous chortle at the BBC and

1045
00:48:07.500 --> 00:48:08.940
thought, oh, Struth, what do we do now?

1046
00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:11.639
You know, it's like when they auditioned Sylvester and we touched

1047
00:48:11.639 --> 00:48:12.239
on this last week.

1048
00:48:12.300 --> 00:48:16.199
JNT wanted Sylvester, but of course, 6th floor, Jonathan Powell

1049
00:48:16.199 --> 00:48:19.980
said, no, we must see other actors, and JNT was enraged by this.

1050
00:48:20.039 --> 00:48:23.159
He's like, you're forcing me to stay on, but you won't trust me.

1051
00:48:23.219 --> 00:48:27.000
So the way he describes it, and the way Silt prescribes it is, we

1052
00:48:27.000 --> 00:48:31.199
got 2 other very good actors, but completely for the part.

1053
00:48:31.260 --> 00:48:32.579
Now, the thing is, they got him more than two.

1054
00:48:32.639 --> 00:48:33.480
They got in Ken Campbell.

1055
00:48:33.539 --> 00:48:34.440
Ken Campbell.

1056
00:48:34.619 --> 00:48:35.820
Who was dark?

1057
00:48:35.820 --> 00:48:39.539
Who started Source's career in 1970 as part of the King Campbell

1058
00:48:39.539 --> 00:48:40.380
Roadshow.

1059
00:48:40.440 --> 00:48:43.139
Would you remember Sylvest McCoy, the human bomb, which is how he

1060
00:48:43.139 --> 00:48:43.739
started his career.

1061
00:48:43.800 --> 00:48:47.699
That was the guy that, in fact, you know, Sylvester based a lot of

1062
00:48:47.699 --> 00:48:49.320
his performances of early on.

1063
00:48:49.380 --> 00:48:51.840
And he was, and Sylvester was still better than Ken.

1064
00:48:51.900 --> 00:48:55.260
Is he Roger in that episode of Faulty Town?

1065
00:48:55.679 --> 00:48:57.059
Yeah, in the anniversary.

1066
00:48:57.119 --> 00:48:58.079
Yeah, yes.

1067
00:48:58.079 --> 00:49:00.059
They got in...

1068
00:49:00.719 --> 00:49:05.400
They got in Chris Jury, who later played Deadbeat in Greatest Show

1069
00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:05.940
in the Galaxy.

1070
00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:09.239
They got in Dermot Crowley, who's actually not bad in the audition

1071
00:49:09.239 --> 00:49:09.539
tape.

1072
00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:13.739
It's on one of the DVDs. one of the DVDs for this season. yeah And

1073
00:49:13.739 --> 00:49:14.639
Harry Fielder.

1074
00:49:14.760 --> 00:49:15.480
And another bloke.

1075
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:17.460
Yeah, kind of just really why?

1076
00:49:17.519 --> 00:49:21.179
And so the last two, we have they're audition tapes along with

1077
00:49:21.179 --> 00:49:21.780
Sylvester's.

1078
00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:23.400
Dermot Crowley would have been interesting.

1079
00:49:23.460 --> 00:49:28.019
Acting right up against Janet Fielding. and they did.

1080
00:49:28.019 --> 00:49:28.559
Brave man.

1081
00:49:28.619 --> 00:49:30.900
And they did, I believe, 2 scenes.

1082
00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:34.920
So they did the Iron Lady scene, which was extensively reworked

1083
00:49:34.920 --> 00:49:36.360
for inclusion in the Happiness Patrol.

1084
00:49:36.420 --> 00:49:36.900
Yes.

1085
00:49:36.900 --> 00:49:41.340
And they did what will become Mel's leaving scene in Dragonfire.

1086
00:49:41.400 --> 00:49:45.000
And Silv kind of impresses the most in that and it's where it

1087
00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:46.860
brings that melancholy we've been talking about.

1088
00:49:46.920 --> 00:49:48.780
It's Cartwell who wrote both of these.

1089
00:49:48.780 --> 00:49:49.980
Yeah. right.

1090
00:49:50.039 --> 00:49:52.739
For Janet Fielding, who they actually wanted to play the doctor

1091
00:49:52.739 --> 00:49:53.820
right from the start.

1092
00:49:53.880 --> 00:49:55.320
That would have been great.

1093
00:49:55.380 --> 00:49:57.539
She's actually quite good in me.

1094
00:49:57.599 --> 00:49:58.559
In those auditions.

1095
00:49:58.619 --> 00:50:00.420
She is amazing as Thatcher.

1096
00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:01.679
Well, terrified.

1097
00:50:01.679 --> 00:50:05.519
Indeed, as Peter Davis would say, just playing herself.

1098
00:50:05.579 --> 00:50:08.880
There was a funny moment on Twitter the other day where Janet

1099
00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:12.059
wished Colin Baker a happy birthday and said, I'm sure you were

1100
00:50:12.059 --> 00:50:15.659
always reasonable to all your companions. which Peter Davidson

1101
00:50:15.659 --> 00:50:18.539
responded, well, I'm sure he had very reasonable companions.

1102
00:50:18.599 --> 00:50:21.179
Oh, my goodness, there's not an inch of sunlight and all that show

1103
00:50:21.179 --> 00:50:21.599
is there?

1104
00:50:21.659 --> 00:50:23.639
They love each other.

1105
00:50:23.699 --> 00:50:24.719
You can just...

1106
00:50:24.780 --> 00:50:25.619
Oh yeah, absolutely.

1107
00:50:25.679 --> 00:50:30.179
I'm kind of glad they didn't go with Sidney Newman's ideas.

1108
00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:32.880
Mainly because Bollock...

1109
00:50:33.480 --> 00:50:36.119
There's nothing postmodern about those ideas.

1110
00:50:36.179 --> 00:50:38.880
No, it's just like, oh, yes, this new show called Doctor Who, which

1111
00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:42.179
is exactly interesting for the, yes, with Biddy and Cliff.

1112
00:50:42.239 --> 00:50:47.880
Yeah, when you think back in 1963, if you look at his notes

1113
00:50:47.880 --> 00:50:50.519
practically nothing makes it into the show and he's like, no

1114
00:50:50.519 --> 00:50:51.119
monsters.

1115
00:50:51.179 --> 00:50:53.280
We can't have any monsters in Doctor Who.

1116
00:50:53.340 --> 00:50:55.320
We wouldn't have Nathan on this podcast if there were no

1117
00:50:55.320 --> 00:50:55.739
monsters.

1118
00:50:55.860 --> 00:50:59.400
We'd have James, who's now going to jump in a time machine and go

1119
00:50:59.400 --> 00:51:01.380
back to avert the creation of the Daleks.

1120
00:51:01.440 --> 00:51:02.340
Harsh but fair.

1121
00:51:02.340 --> 00:51:03.360
Do that.

1122
00:51:03.480 --> 00:51:07.079
Just despite me. vindictive.

1123
00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:42.599
Well, ladies, gentlemen, Kangs, Rezies, Caretakers, we think we

1124
00:51:42.599 --> 00:51:45.599
all deserve a bit of a holiday, so we're off to Disneyland in

1125
00:51:45.599 --> 00:51:46.679
1959.

1126
00:51:46.860 --> 00:51:47.639
Hooray!

1127
00:51:47.699 --> 00:51:49.619
How can the BBC budget stretch to this?

1128
00:51:49.679 --> 00:51:52.679
We'll find out next week with Delta and the Bannermen do come back

1129
00:51:52.679 --> 00:51:53.280
for that.

1130
00:51:53.340 --> 00:51:57.239
Until then, you can find us online at flightthroughentirety.sexy

1131
00:51:57.239 --> 00:52:01.019
flight through entirety on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at FDE

1132
00:52:01.019 --> 00:52:02.159
podcast on Twitter.

1133
00:52:02.219 --> 00:52:06.360
Over on Bondfinger, you can find the PS Brosnan era, and that's on

1134
00:52:06.360 --> 00:52:09.420
Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes and at

1135
00:52:09.420 --> 00:52:11.219
Bondfingercast on Twitter.

1136
00:52:11.280 --> 00:52:14.280
Don't forget, voting is still open for our Peter Davison

1137
00:52:14.280 --> 00:52:14.760
commentary.

1138
00:52:14.820 --> 00:52:18.119
Your choices are for to doomsday, nominated by Todd.

1139
00:52:18.179 --> 00:52:21.179
Arc of Infinity, nominated by me.

1140
00:52:21.239 --> 00:52:22.860
Enlightenment, nominated by Richard.

1141
00:52:22.860 --> 00:52:24.059
That's a good one, listening.

1142
00:52:24.059 --> 00:52:26.579
And Resurrection of the Dialects nominated by Nathan.

1143
00:52:26.639 --> 00:52:27.420
He hates that.

1144
00:52:27.480 --> 00:52:29.880
Because I hate the world. and everyone in it.

1145
00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:33.300
That's a bond film with Piss Brosnan, isn't it?

1146
00:52:33.420 --> 00:52:37.500
Until next week, may you not disappear up a Resi's waste disposal

1147
00:52:37.500 --> 00:52:37.800
shoot.

1148
00:52:37.860 --> 00:52:39.179
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1149
00:52:39.239 --> 00:52:39.659
Good night.

1150
00:52:39.719 --> 00:52:40.320
Good night.

1151
00:52:40.380 --> 00:52:42.840
I'm steaming my tool skirt for next week as we speak.

1152
00:52:42.900 --> 00:52:43.559
Cheers.

1153
00:53:00.300 --> 00:53:04.019
That was Flight for Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Brandon

1154
00:53:04.019 --> 00:53:05.219
Jones, and Richard Stone.

1155
00:53:05.280 --> 00:53:08.400
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, logo designed by Anthony

1156
00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:09.119
Wells.

1157
00:53:09.179 --> 00:53:12.480
This episode, Thatcher's Britain, was recorded on the 12th of June

1158
00:53:12.480 --> 00:53:13.260
2017.

1159
00:53:13.500 --> 00:53:16.260
The next episode will be released on the 2nd of July.

1160
00:53:22.380 --> 00:53:25.019
We would like to apologise to our listeners for bringing up any

1161
00:53:25.019 --> 00:53:28.079
unpleasant memories of the Thatcher years and are delighted to

1162
00:53:28.079 --> 00:53:31.199
reassure you that nothing like them can ever happen again.

1163
00:53:34.500 --> 00:53:39.420
We're releasing some lovely dunkable biscuit varieties, the

1164
00:53:39.420 --> 00:53:42.119
Bonfinger label, too, you'll soon be able to purchase for your

1165
00:53:42.119 --> 00:53:43.019
added enjoyment.

1166
00:53:43.079 --> 00:53:43.920
Yes.

1167
00:53:45.780 --> 00:53:48.960
It goes with Pierce Brosnan's teabag.

1168
00:53:49.019 --> 00:53:50.519
Roger Monte Carlo.

1169
00:53:53.579 --> 00:53:55.440
Sean Canary things.

1170
00:53:56.400 --> 00:53:58.380
Just dreadful, man.

1171
00:54:00.420 --> 00:54:04.260
Just trying to think of a biscuit beginning with D, but I can't.

1172
00:54:04.920 --> 00:54:06.659
George Lamington.

1173
00:54:06.719 --> 00:54:09.780
Are you doing the voting part?

1174
00:54:09.900 --> 00:54:10.079
Yes.

1175
00:54:10.139 --> 00:54:11.639
Don't forget.