WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 12:16:54

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast who gets all their life advice from

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Welsh bees.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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And I'm Ruth Maddock in a hula skirt for this episode, if anyone

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remembers her.

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It's Todd's most favourite story ever, and we can say that because

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he's not here.

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It's Delta of the Batman.

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Hurrah!

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Actually, to be fair, he doesn't hate it as much as he used to.

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Anyway, I just say this is my favourite Sylvester story.

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It's brilliant.

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I love this so much.

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I can't tell you the joy of a very windy 1988 here in Sydney and

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gray and then this disappeared and I thought, ah, I'm home.

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It's beautiful.

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This is so lovely.

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This had a mystique for me as a kid because the 1st time around we

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missed episode two.

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So I only had episode one and episode three.

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And it's amazing, you know, it still pretty much hangs together

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and we had watched it.

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And you know, me being 5 years old, didn't have a great memory, but

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my brother was able to tell me what happened in the middle

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episode.

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It wasn't for very long.

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I think they repeated Sill's 1st season remembrance almost

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straight away after the 1st run and we then got the 2nd episode.

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So on the Paradise Towers tape.

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I had episodes one and 3 and then on another tape I had all 3

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episodes of Delta and the Batter Men.

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The past was miserable.

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All archeology.

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Richard, you are so right that this story is so bright and breezy

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and fun.

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It was written by Malcolm Cole, who was Andrew Cartmel's 1st

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personally commissioned script for the show.

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Malcolm Cole had grown up in Zimbabwe.

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But John Nathan Turner suggested the location of holiday camps

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which Malcolm Cole was really big fan of.

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His brother lived in Wales.

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So there were lots of holiday camps around and Malcolm... an Old

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Testament superhero.

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And Malcolm Cole as a child had gone on a holiday to a holiday

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camp and it was a really happy memory for him.

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So he was he was thrilled to be writing for that.

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And the holiday... casual alcoholism and incipient, really.

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Yes it really was. interesting time.

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Well, get more to that, won't we?

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Later on in the episode.

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I think this is the darkest Doctor Who story so far about

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relationships and why people are together and what brings people

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together.

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This is a very adult story.

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It is.

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And Doctor Who...

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Pretty much almost always very poorly handles romance.

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Well, normally we just shut the doors and tell them they're better

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off without us and to go on boldly and cross pollinate our double

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entendres, don't we?

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normally.

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But yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, romance is usually just used in Doctor Who as a way to

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justify contract roulette and write out the girlie of the time.

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Although Joe gets a little off-world romance, doesn't she, every

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time she goes to another planet?

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That's true, which is reasonably well handled.

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And space slaggy.

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And I think Joe is one of only 2 characters who actually gets a

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decent romantic exit, the other one being, in my opinion, Susan

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you know, because that relationship develops over a period of

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weeks. it?

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Yeah, there's the whole bit with the fish in front of the fire

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slapping down, Steve, and she mixes him something toxic.

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They're just saying don't put bodies, you know, dump in the river

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cookies of fish there.

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And then he's sitting there. very obsequious to the doctor, though

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isn't he, David Campbell?

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And then, of course, they just, no, just, oh, she looks like she's

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a bit flirty.

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Right, sort you misses. locks the door and buckers off.

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Really?

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I think I true late as well.

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I think it's the most extraordinary actor.

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Dr. Ness, yeah, but anyway.

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But, you know, here we have Not so much from Billy, but really on

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the part of Ray, a real human expression.

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Well, I think it's such a clever idea that when they're developing

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her character, they say, you know what?

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We may keep her on as a companion because it means she gets well

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rounded characterisation.

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And you know what?

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Yes, she's pining after Billy, but that doesn't make her this

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complete simpering.

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Oh, he does, he's not interested in me.

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I'm gonna collapse in a heap.

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No, in fact, she's quite happy to get the bike. all right, you

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bugger off into space.

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I'll have the bike.

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This vibrate's a lot heavier than you ever did in queer coot.

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There's that beautiful bit where the doctor calls her my dear in

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Welsh.

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You know, my weak Harriad.

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I think they both try and outdo each other's vows, don't they?

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It would have been. can you imagine a whole series with Sarah

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Griffiths and and Sylvester McCoy, you would not have been able to

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understand a single word.

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As much as I like Ray, I think if you had have kept her on, it

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would have been really nice and sweet.

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The way that Sylv and Bonnie are nice and sweet together, we

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wouldn't have had the sort of rough edges we get next year and the

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year after with Ace.

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But that being said, I do love her and Silv together in this

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story.

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I think she's extraordinary.

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You know how close it was that Dorothy almost got the part. because

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Sophie and Ace are the same person, really.

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But, you know, because you remember that, you remember that on

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every letter that went through, has own leathers.

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Like on a black man's back in the room.

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Did they actually swap was originally Sarah Griffiths going to

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play...

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I don't know about that, but Sophie was definitely up for this

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part, wasn't she?

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So initial auditions for Ray and Ace, it was everyone was

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auditioning for both parts.

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Elizabeth Spriggs.

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Richard Briars.

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The shortlist for Ace for...

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Sophie Eldred and an actress called Cassie Stewart.

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Yes.

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And the shortlist for Ray was Sarah Griffiths and George Slade.

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And Lynn Gardner was could be either.

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But she was cast as Ray.

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Not Sarah Griffiths at first.

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And famously, while she was practising on her scooter, she fell

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and broke her leg and she wasn't going to be recovered in time. was

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nowhere near the mechanics department at the time.

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But yeah, so she contacted the Doctor Who Production office who

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wrote back to her saying, look, you know, we're really sorry to

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hear that.

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We understand entirely.

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You will be paid in full.

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Oh, read had her own leathers, do you?

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So they paid Lingardner in full for the 3 episodes and she will be

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heard next week in Dragonfire as the Tanoy voice.

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Nice world.

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So there's a career, say, for you.

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But yeah, so they called in Sarah Griffiths instead.

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Who is who is just lovely.

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You know, I mean, she's gorgeous.

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She looks the part.

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Utterly believable.

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And I, there's a scene in there which I think is very important

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for establishing Silv's character, where Billy Ray's love interest

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is singing to Delta, and Ray is utterly heartbroken and she goes

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to walk away and the doctor asks her to dance because he doesn't

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know what else to do.

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And she's just like, yes, thank you.

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I'd love to.

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And he has no idea what he seems to have, no idea what she's

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doing.

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He's leading.

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He even, I don't think he even gets to ask.

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He goes to ask you a question.

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I wonder if you would.

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I'd love to.

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And then there's that really quite lovely scene where he's

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consoling her.

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Do you know, this is somewhere that the show has never, ever gone

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before.

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Niceness.

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Yeah.

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Well, yeah.

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So you've got this production.

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It's all on location.

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So there's no space corridors.

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We're not on the planet Zog.

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Everything's on location.

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Everything.

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They even built the interior of the bus in one of the chalet

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corridors.

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Do you know that was full of rats?

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Yes, yeah.

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Some of the production crew stayed there and very quickly didn't

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because it was a it was a real wing of a holiday camp. had been

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used to shoot parts of Heidi High, who starring Philip Maddock's

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own daughter, Dane Ruth Maddock.

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Do you remember?

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Did you ever see...

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I did see it, yeah.

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It's really funny.

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It's the same people who wrote, are you being served?

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and it ain't half hot, mum, and all those other lovely things.

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Dad's army.

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Probably.

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The casting crew referred to Delta and the Bannerman as Heidi

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Who.

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Oh, that's right.

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And previously, Time in the Rani was the two, was the 2 Ranis.

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But this was filmed in a disused part of a holiday camp.

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So it was this holiday camp with 3 areas.

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This was called the yellow camp, and you'll notice all the walls

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are yellow.

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But so this place was built in the early 60s, which was deemed

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close enough architecturally.

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And the other 2 camps in the area had been modernised, and this

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one was due to be modernised.

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Gary Downey found out about it.

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And they said, oh, we'd love to have Doctor Who, and they were

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incredibly helpful and accommodating.

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The only things that change were, There were some scripted scenes

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on roundabout, like one of the spinning merry-go-round things.

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That, what Mellon Burton were meant to be tied to.

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And unfortunately, on the day, it was being used by real campers

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and the management were like, look, sorry, you know, we have given

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you a whole wing.

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We can't really.

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Oh, no, no, it's fine.

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We'll just tie them over here.

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I thought you were going to say it was just the congealed rats. the

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mechanism.

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But yeah, they put, they put a giant tunnel on the site, which is

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where they filmed the entire spaceship.

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Yeah. bloody dawn.

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Yeah, Ken...

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I feel so...

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He's the most meta thing to ever happen to Doctor Who.

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It's amazing.

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And it's fantastic. calculated to...

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It's bizarre.

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Well, it's calculated to make the Doctor Who Monster book.

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People hate it because Doctor Who is serious science fiction and

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doesn't have light entertainment.

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People like Ken Dodd.

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You know what they're doing?

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They're saying, oh, you think silver, you're criticising silver

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all of these things, will give you Doddie, who's the meta silver

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on every level?

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It's kind of sad in a way, because in the script, he is scripted

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as like a cross between a game show host and a lizard.

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And the thing was, he came up to Sylvester.

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After rehearsal on locationing, just kind of said, you know, am I

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is this okay?

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Like, because I know the character's meant to be very large, but I

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don't want to go too over the top and end up spoiling it.

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He had done dramatic performances, and he's actually quite good.

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He puts in fake teeth, so he looks normal and greases his hair

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back. true.

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And the problem is, Sylvester, I think, quite rightly thought, you

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know, this man is a legend is someone I really respect.

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I can't tell him how to act.

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That's up to the director.

256
00:11:29.940 --> 00:11:33.240
And so still said, oh, look, you know, I think it's fine, but go

257
00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:34.080
have a word with the director.

258
00:11:34.200 --> 00:11:39.120
Chris Klough, it seems kind of had the same opinion and just said

259
00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:40.679
oh, no, no, darling, follow your instincts.

260
00:11:40.740 --> 00:11:46.259
And Silv was in the box during Dodd's death scene.

261
00:11:46.620 --> 00:11:48.779
When I say the box, I mean, the outside broadcast van where

262
00:11:48.779 --> 00:11:49.559
they're monitoring everything.

263
00:11:49.980 --> 00:11:54.840
And it was originally longer and he's just sitting there and

264
00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:57.480
Clough turns to JNT and says, oh, yeah, he's not very good.

265
00:11:57.539 --> 00:11:58.620
Don't worry, we'll cut it down.

266
00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:02.220
And, you know, of course, Silv, he's quite mild manner.

267
00:12:02.279 --> 00:12:04.259
He doesn't say anything, but he just kind of thought, no, no, get

268
00:12:04.259 --> 00:12:05.940
out there and tell him. wants to do good.

269
00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:07.919
And the thing is, I think...

270
00:12:07.919 --> 00:12:12.539
They do cut him down a fair bit, and I think the brevity helps

271
00:12:12.539 --> 00:12:13.679
make the character work.

272
00:12:13.740 --> 00:12:17.820
And there's a few times where the mask slips like when Mel says, oh

273
00:12:17.820 --> 00:12:21.000
we're meant to be going on a spaceship, not an old bus.

274
00:12:21.059 --> 00:12:24.480
Oh, bus. is a very expensive conversion.

275
00:12:24.539 --> 00:12:28.379
You know, he kind of loses the chippiness there and when Murray

276
00:12:28.379 --> 00:12:33.000
hits it, you know, you can tell his theatrical side is more of a

277
00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:34.620
is more of an act than...

278
00:12:35.580 --> 00:12:38.399
Yeah, there is an element of subtlety to the character.

279
00:12:38.519 --> 00:12:42.360
You know who was 1st who the part was written for and 1st cast, but

280
00:12:42.360 --> 00:12:44.220
he wasn't available.

281
00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:47.580
We've touched on him and he would appreciate the gesture just very

282
00:12:47.580 --> 00:12:50.759
recently in our colin audios, Christopher Biggins.

283
00:12:50.820 --> 00:12:53.220
Oh, yes. written for Christopher Biggins.

284
00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:55.139
And do you know why he turned it down?

285
00:12:56.580 --> 00:12:59.700
Yeah, it's too small a part and I want to play a villain.

286
00:12:59.759 --> 00:13:01.919
That's why he turned it down.

287
00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:02.580
That kind of game.

288
00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:03.659
I'm Nero.

289
00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:06.419
Yeah.

290
00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:09.779
Clav Dives, and he was too.

291
00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:12.120
He's fabulous as Banto, Zane.

292
00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:12.779
Yeah, yeah.

293
00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:16.500
So we can forgive him for being a prat for this one.

294
00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:17.759
You know how the 2nd one was?

295
00:13:17.820 --> 00:13:20.039
He's actually one of my favourite British comedians.

296
00:13:20.100 --> 00:13:21.240
Bob Monkhouse.

297
00:13:21.299 --> 00:13:22.379
Does anyone know who he is?

298
00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:25.919
He's horribly dead, although he does make a lovely appearance in

299
00:13:25.919 --> 00:13:30.299
Toast of London with Matt Berry as someone faking him.

300
00:13:30.360 --> 00:13:33.360
He was he was just one of those really, but he was had a very high

301
00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:35.639
IQ, really witty raconteurs.

302
00:13:35.700 --> 00:13:38.879
He did the golden shot and six, he was one of those 60s guys like

303
00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:41.759
Bruce Forsyth or Eric Morkam, but smarter and clever.

304
00:13:41.820 --> 00:13:43.740
But Dottie actually surpassed them all.

305
00:13:43.799 --> 00:13:47.519
Ken Dodd was in the Guinness book of World Records for years for

306
00:13:47.519 --> 00:13:51.299
being able to keep a joke pattern going for the longest one line

307
00:13:51.299 --> 00:13:51.840
of jokes.

308
00:13:51.899 --> 00:13:54.059
He did it for almost 4 days.

309
00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:55.620
I'm really not kidding.

310
00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:56.279
Look it up.

311
00:13:56.340 --> 00:13:58.440
So how does that work?

312
00:13:58.500 --> 00:14:01.980
Does he just keep sort of starts telling the joke and then just

313
00:14:01.980 --> 00:14:04.860
keeps interrupting himself until he gets to the punchline 4 days

314
00:14:04.860 --> 00:14:04.980
later.

315
00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:06.480
I think he's taking Nathan's pills.

316
00:14:06.539 --> 00:14:07.679
I think that might be.

317
00:14:07.740 --> 00:14:09.840
It's like a wide mouth frog joke.

318
00:14:09.960 --> 00:14:12.299
He just, you know, comes to another animal.

319
00:14:12.299 --> 00:14:13.620
I've heard him do it on just a minute.

320
00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:16.679
I've heard him do it on just a minute just this year, which is, I

321
00:14:16.679 --> 00:14:18.720
think, it's in its 748th season.

322
00:14:18.779 --> 00:14:20.340
It's actually older than me.

323
00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:22.259
The radio series.

324
00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:25.200
Still hosted by friend of the podcast, Nicholas Parsons.

325
00:14:25.259 --> 00:14:26.039
We own him.

326
00:14:26.100 --> 00:14:27.600
Yeah, we own him.

327
00:14:27.659 --> 00:14:31.259
But Dottie just did a whole minute of just one liners.

328
00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:33.600
They're just silly jokes, but of course he's been in the business

329
00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:35.940
since before time.

330
00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:37.259
Yes, that's right.

331
00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:41.580
He's kind of like Betty White was born before sliced bread.

332
00:14:42.059 --> 00:14:43.860
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

333
00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:46.139
So sliced bread is the best thing since Betty White.

334
00:14:46.679 --> 00:14:50.519
Oh my god, my bladder just leaked.

335
00:14:50.580 --> 00:14:52.740
We have had a lot of tea.

336
00:14:52.980 --> 00:14:56.519
But I think Dodd's death scene...

337
00:14:57.179 --> 00:15:01.860
I think the Tollmaster's death scene.

338
00:15:01.860 --> 00:15:03.480
It is awful.

339
00:15:03.539 --> 00:15:07.559
And it kind of cements the 2 halves of the show because we had

340
00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:11.879
this happy holiday romp, almost a beach blanket bingo movie.

341
00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:15.419
And then we have Don Henderson coming in and smashing the whole

342
00:15:15.419 --> 00:15:15.840
thing up.

343
00:15:15.899 --> 00:15:17.700
Oh, Don Henderson.

344
00:15:17.820 --> 00:15:21.960
You know the rebels will take over if you slutty fast around the

345
00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:22.679
place like you're doing.

346
00:15:22.740 --> 00:15:25.860
Do you remember that line in Star Wars when he says you keep it up

347
00:15:25.860 --> 00:15:26.220
like this.

348
00:15:26.279 --> 00:15:28.259
The rebels are going to sort youse out.

349
00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:31.740
And he goes off and has a chip buddy in a canalaga.

350
00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:33.120
He's in Star Wars.

351
00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:33.720
Yes, he is.

352
00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:34.500
Gar Rock, yeah.

353
00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:37.139
Yeah, he's in a new hope around around the table.

354
00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:39.179
He's not the guy who gets choked by Vader, but he is in that

355
00:15:39.179 --> 00:15:39.360
scene.

356
00:15:39.419 --> 00:15:41.279
He would have been up for it too.

357
00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:46.019
He was the Michael Hutchins of Doctor Who.

358
00:15:46.019 --> 00:15:49.019
The cannibalistic ham.

359
00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:55.320
I think that I think that he is a very kind of low rent villain

360
00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:58.139
not in the sense of giving a bad performance.

361
00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:00.299
No, he took this very seriously.

362
00:16:00.419 --> 00:16:04.740
He was always writing notes to everyone. them to play as well as

363
00:16:04.740 --> 00:16:04.980
him.

364
00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:06.840
He plays it Superstar.

365
00:16:06.899 --> 00:16:09.659
He loved Doctor Who, too. really wanted to do this for a long

366
00:16:09.659 --> 00:16:09.840
time.

367
00:16:09.899 --> 00:16:13.200
But this is a conception of science fiction that if you're a giant

368
00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:14.220
fan of earth shock.

369
00:16:14.279 --> 00:16:17.039
You're going to hate it because instead of being about various

370
00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:20.220
space races, You love Earth Shop. a huge fan.

371
00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:22.200
Second only to Warriors of the Deep.

372
00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:27.059
You know, the universe is populated by fleets of spaceships, you

373
00:16:27.059 --> 00:16:30.779
know, run by Santarans and Daleks, and that it's all very gone and

374
00:16:30.779 --> 00:16:31.440
all very serious.

375
00:16:31.500 --> 00:16:35.820
And now we have a sort of hitchhikers guide conception of what the

376
00:16:35.820 --> 00:16:40.740
universe is like with toll booths and special offers and holiday

377
00:16:40.740 --> 00:16:41.279
trips.

378
00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:45.779
And the everyday and the inane grown up with the meta and the mega

379
00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:46.500
gorgeous.

380
00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:49.379
And so you've got these sort of silly aliens that in the script

381
00:16:49.379 --> 00:16:53.399
they're described as looking like artichokes, actually, in the

382
00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:53.879
novelisation.

383
00:16:53.940 --> 00:16:55.559
That's like the Galaxy Quest.

384
00:16:56.519 --> 00:16:58.320
It's wonderful.

385
00:16:58.379 --> 00:17:01.860
I mean, it is just a terrific new fresh, exciting conception of

386
00:17:01.860 --> 00:17:02.940
what science fiction is.

387
00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:04.380
It's for the people at home.

388
00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:09.299
It's not for, it's not Babylon fine. for people who like jokes.

389
00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:10.740
That's exactly right.

390
00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:14.700
And then you go to a real place in the recent past, in the

391
00:17:14.700 --> 00:17:17.220
lifetime of the older people watching at home.

392
00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:22.140
Something that's really something that's that's really sort of

393
00:17:22.140 --> 00:17:22.980
recognisable.

394
00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:27.960
I think it's the 1st time that Doctor Who has gone back in time

395
00:17:27.960 --> 00:17:29.640
such a short distance.

396
00:17:29.700 --> 00:17:32.220
Yeah, I mean, the, I was thinking about it last night.

397
00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:35.220
The only other one that kind of qualifies would be Morden undead.

398
00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:40.079
And even then, the journey back in time is so close that it might

399
00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:41.819
as, yeah, it might as well be the current day.

400
00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:44.039
So this is 28 years.

401
00:17:44.099 --> 00:17:50.640
The previous record was about 38 years for the abominable

402
00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:51.180
snowmen.

403
00:17:51.180 --> 00:17:53.400
Yeah, so that's the 30s, isn't it?

404
00:17:53.460 --> 00:17:54.180
Yeah, yeah.

405
00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:57.299
So it's the 1st time we've gone back in time sort of to post-war

406
00:17:57.299 --> 00:17:58.019
Britain.

407
00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:01.079
So it's a completely new territory for the show.

408
00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:04.740
And then the show is set in a sort of working class environment.

409
00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:09.599
It's not set in a space station or a research centre or near a

410
00:18:09.599 --> 00:18:10.619
cyclotron.

411
00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:15.839
You can actually see Pertwe's curling tongs just riding.

412
00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:19.500
Did you know that was part of McCoy's pitch to Cart Mall and then

413
00:18:19.500 --> 00:18:20.279
to JNT?

414
00:18:20.339 --> 00:18:22.559
He said, I want to be the 1st working class doctor.

415
00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:27.420
Yeah, I'm, I totally, totally get it.

416
00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:28.440
Yeah, it's wonderful.

417
00:18:28.500 --> 00:18:32.339
And it picks up on something that we mentioned in the Colin

418
00:18:32.339 --> 00:18:35.640
retrospective, and throughout Colin's era as well, part of what

419
00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:38.759
was really lost in that era was a lack of stories set on

420
00:18:38.759 --> 00:18:44.039
recognisable either modern day or in this case recent past earth.

421
00:18:44.220 --> 00:18:46.200
You've got one episode.

422
00:18:46.259 --> 00:18:48.119
You've got Attack of the Sidemen episode one.

423
00:18:48.180 --> 00:18:49.319
Yeah, that's it.

424
00:18:49.380 --> 00:18:53.099
Whereas you might argue that other than time in the Rani, although

425
00:18:53.099 --> 00:18:56.279
we've touched on that, it is very much of the present, if you like

426
00:18:56.279 --> 00:18:59.819
is a metaphor, but Paradise Towers could easily just be anywhere

427
00:18:59.819 --> 00:19:00.900
you know, after London.

428
00:19:01.019 --> 00:19:03.960
Yeah, but again, it's not in a world of space stations and

429
00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:07.680
spaceships, which is what the universe has been like up till now.

430
00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:10.500
It's more joyful and children can play it because you can imagine

431
00:19:10.500 --> 00:19:14.160
that the school bus now actually is the never really shuffle.

432
00:19:14.220 --> 00:19:15.000
Yeah, yeah.

433
00:19:15.059 --> 00:19:17.339
And what isn't the buster stroke of genius for that exact reason?

434
00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:21.299
It was this unwanted BBC Enterpol.

435
00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:23.339
BBC bought it for this and you're going to see it again in

436
00:19:23.339 --> 00:19:24.420
Greatest Show of the Garlic scene.

437
00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:29.519
Yeah, yeah. and bought it for £3000 And John Nathan Turner's boss

438
00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:30.839
says, oh, God, you're mad.

439
00:19:30.900 --> 00:19:34.019
Well, bought it for £3000 used in this story, used in that story.

440
00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:37.140
She ended up at Doctor Who exhibition, cheaper than a prop

441
00:19:37.140 --> 00:19:38.640
actually semifunctional.

442
00:19:38.700 --> 00:19:42.960
And it, rather than, you know, building a spaceship.

443
00:19:43.019 --> 00:19:44.700
It makes it recognisable.

444
00:19:44.700 --> 00:19:46.259
And then we're told, actually, it's a spaceship.

445
00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:47.460
We put a funky engine in the back.

446
00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:48.420
What was it?

447
00:19:49.740 --> 00:19:50.700
Yes, exactly. right.

448
00:19:50.759 --> 00:19:51.599
Yeah, exactly right.

449
00:19:51.660 --> 00:19:53.220
This is the doctor who does it.

450
00:19:53.220 --> 00:19:53.700
It's best.

451
00:19:53.819 --> 00:19:56.940
And for some, and also for some reason, there's that bit where the

452
00:19:56.940 --> 00:19:59.519
doctor shows Burton and Ray inside the TARDIS to prove his

453
00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:02.880
credentials and we hated that in the Davidson era. hated it, yes.

454
00:20:02.940 --> 00:20:04.559
But here it's so lovely and sweet.

455
00:20:04.859 --> 00:20:10.319
And he comes out energised and excited, Burton is, I think, my

456
00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:11.460
favourite.

457
00:20:11.460 --> 00:20:12.000
It's so wonderful.

458
00:20:12.059 --> 00:20:17.039
That line about the happy hot Hearts holiday, plus Bolton is one

459
00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:18.180
of the funniest things.

460
00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:19.140
He's lovely.

461
00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:22.079
There's a lot of, you know, we're going to, we're going to touch

462
00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:25.440
on Arthurian legends in another story further on, but this

463
00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:28.140
actually has got quite a bit of, you know, being a well story.

464
00:20:28.200 --> 00:20:29.579
It's really touching on a lot.

465
00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:32.099
It also has one of my favourite people of all time, you know, it's

466
00:20:32.099 --> 00:20:36.720
stubby K. Yeah, I'm not sure that that plot is particularly

467
00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:37.140
successful.

468
00:20:37.259 --> 00:20:38.460
It was grafted on.

469
00:20:38.519 --> 00:20:41.940
Kartmore was told to or was told we need more humour.

470
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:43.500
This came from Jonathan Powell.

471
00:20:43.559 --> 00:20:45.180
So it was added onto the cold script.

472
00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:46.920
But don't forget, Stubby, okay.

473
00:20:46.980 --> 00:20:50.579
I grew up with watching guys and dolls, and if you've never seen

474
00:20:50.579 --> 00:20:53.279
it, Have you ever seen the thing and he sings the sit down, you

475
00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:54.240
rock on the boat song?

476
00:20:54.299 --> 00:20:56.940
is a genius of comedy timing?

477
00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:00.359
And haven't you noticed if you want to play these sorts of parts

478
00:21:00.359 --> 00:21:03.480
get a tried and true comedian because they won't stick it?

479
00:21:03.539 --> 00:21:04.859
Yeah, he plays it straight.

480
00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:07.259
Where in Wales, in England.

481
00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:07.500
Yeah.

482
00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:10.140
And there's something just terribly sweet about it too.

483
00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:13.559
You know, they're like they're agents of the American government

484
00:21:13.559 --> 00:21:17.099
but they're just sort of in a tent, you know. imagine the only

485
00:21:17.099 --> 00:21:19.380
thing that could have made it better if they'd cast Morecambe and

486
00:21:19.380 --> 00:21:19.799
wine.

487
00:21:20.940 --> 00:21:23.279
Who was still alive, probably?

488
00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:28.740
The strange thing is, though, these 2 who do end up being a

489
00:21:28.740 --> 00:21:30.420
smaller part of the plot than Nintended.

490
00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:33.900
You know, they were kind of grafted on, but then Malcolm Cole and

491
00:21:33.900 --> 00:21:36.779
Andrew Cartmel went for it and they're like, we're going to give

492
00:21:36.779 --> 00:21:38.160
these guys a proper story arc.

493
00:21:38.220 --> 00:21:41.099
So originally the story was set in 1957, launch of Spupnik.

494
00:21:41.220 --> 00:21:44.940
And the idea was the satellite there tracking is an American

495
00:21:44.940 --> 00:21:45.779
satellite.

496
00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:46.559
Yes.

497
00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:49.740
And the reason we've never heard about it is the bus crashes into

498
00:21:49.740 --> 00:21:49.920
it.

499
00:21:50.099 --> 00:21:53.099
And which, of course, is why it looks like Sputnik.

500
00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:53.400
Yeah.

501
00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:57.420
And so the whole, their kind of whole subplot is we've got to find

502
00:21:57.420 --> 00:22:00.960
this thing because we're actually not working in the UK out of

503
00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:01.380
choice.

504
00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:04.559
You know, this is our last chance to make good and we can actually

505
00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:05.940
go home and work in America.

506
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:07.200
And that was their through line.

507
00:22:07.259 --> 00:22:08.579
Do you know why it was moved up?

508
00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:09.720
moved up 2 years?

509
00:22:09.779 --> 00:22:12.960
Was it the development of rock and roll and the rock and roll was

510
00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:14.220
more accepted by 1959?

511
00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:17.220
I wish it was that pure and interesting.

512
00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:20.819
It was because JNT and Keth McCulloch agreed that they could

513
00:22:20.819 --> 00:22:26.940
squeeze in more known songs that McCulloch could...

514
00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:28.259
He's in the band.

515
00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:32.460
You can watch him on stage with the pony turtle, swishing around.

516
00:22:32.519 --> 00:22:33.299
There still flies on him.

517
00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:36.359
I don't think it worked for a second. that they were going to

518
00:22:36.359 --> 00:22:40.259
release a Christmas album of this soundtrack.

519
00:22:40.319 --> 00:22:41.460
Can you imagine?

520
00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:44.519
It's a great way to get that inheritance early, isn't it?

521
00:22:44.579 --> 00:22:46.799
Just sit in front of your grandmother in front of that for an hour

522
00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:47.579
and watch what happens.

523
00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:50.339
And do think, though, that the music is really great.

524
00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:52.079
Oh, I knew you were going to like it.

525
00:22:52.140 --> 00:22:53.819
Devil's Gallop.

526
00:22:53.880 --> 00:22:56.519
Yes, it's Dick Barton, special agent.

527
00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:00.240
Brendan is actually Timey Wimey and was around in 1946.

528
00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:01.920
Why is it on radio four?

529
00:23:01.980 --> 00:23:05.460
But of course, I knew it when this played out as that bit from

530
00:23:05.460 --> 00:23:06.539
Monty Python.

531
00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:08.039
Whenever a joke thing happens.

532
00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:11.640
It really is counterintuitive to any of the pathos they're trying

533
00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:12.599
to build though, isn't it?

534
00:23:12.660 --> 00:23:13.740
I love it.

535
00:23:13.799 --> 00:23:14.279
I think it works.

536
00:23:14.339 --> 00:23:16.079
It just creates such a light atmosphere.

537
00:23:16.140 --> 00:23:17.819
I'm in the music at the dance as well.

538
00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:22.859
You know, like having recognisable songs, which we've done... when?

539
00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:24.180
But when have we ever done that?

540
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:26.339
Yeah, um...

541
00:23:26.339 --> 00:23:27.299
The Last Chance Saloon.

542
00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:31.079
The Honourable Aubrey Waits, you know, like when did we last have

543
00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:32.400
popular music on the show?

544
00:23:32.460 --> 00:23:34.440
And God, you know, who would you say?

545
00:23:34.440 --> 00:23:37.079
Are you playing in Inferno in the Inferno Disco?

546
00:23:37.140 --> 00:23:38.579
I don't know, actually.

547
00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:39.539
Probably more library music.

548
00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:40.440
Yeah.

549
00:23:40.500 --> 00:23:42.059
Swinging, wasn't it?

550
00:23:42.119 --> 00:23:45.000
We got old Duffer and 2 waitresses because the hottest spot in

551
00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:45.180
town.

552
00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:46.619
Much later.

553
00:23:46.619 --> 00:23:47.759
I think that was probably in Wales too.

554
00:23:47.880 --> 00:23:50.039
Paperback writer in Evil of the Dalek.

555
00:23:50.099 --> 00:23:50.819
Yeah, that's true.

556
00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:54.839
Who would use 3 guitars mood for 115 episodes?

557
00:23:54.900 --> 00:23:55.500
I ask you.

558
00:23:55.559 --> 00:23:56.819
No one, I know.

559
00:23:56.880 --> 00:23:59.039
But yeah, I enjoy the music here.

560
00:23:59.099 --> 00:24:02.099
And the reason it's all done by Kef on a synthesiser is cheap.

561
00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:07.259
Yeah, it was, it was, okay, it was cheaper to pay Kev to re-record

562
00:24:07.259 --> 00:24:11.039
the songs and then pay the license for a re-recording than it was

563
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:12.180
to pay for the original recording.

564
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:15.299
Now, things have actually changed now with music licensing.

565
00:24:15.539 --> 00:24:19.500
And in general, not, there are specific cases, but in general

566
00:24:19.500 --> 00:24:20.700
music licensing has become cheaper.

567
00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:21.960
They've woken up to that.

568
00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:28.140
But also, like it's a sort of a crummy 1950s rock and roll night

569
00:24:28.140 --> 00:24:30.119
at a holiday.

570
00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:31.799
With Mary Island.

571
00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:34.559
With the mechanic, the weed vocal.

572
00:24:34.619 --> 00:24:35.039
Yeah.

573
00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:37.140
And they all look like Sicorax on stage.

574
00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:39.660
Especially that Kef McCullough.

575
00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:43.019
No, I think that's really wonderful.

576
00:24:43.079 --> 00:24:49.140
The one thing that I think is totally horribly wrong. is steady

577
00:24:49.140 --> 00:24:49.559
yourselves.

578
00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:53.700
Obviously, the bus exploding at the end of episode two.

579
00:24:53.940 --> 00:24:57.839
Okay, I saw this as a whatever age, 1st to uni.

580
00:24:57.900 --> 00:24:59.220
I thought, no, that's wrong.

581
00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:01.079
Yeah, it's cruel.

582
00:25:01.140 --> 00:25:03.599
It's especially wrong because it's not really mentioned again.

583
00:25:03.660 --> 00:25:06.000
And that's unfortunate because it was mentioned again in the

584
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:06.420
script.

585
00:25:06.839 --> 00:25:11.519
But they had to cut stuff out and they kind of went, well, that's

586
00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:12.720
surplus to requirement.

587
00:25:12.779 --> 00:25:16.259
It's like, okay, well maybe if the bus exploding is surplus to

588
00:25:16.259 --> 00:25:17.640
requirement, maybe just let them get away.

589
00:25:17.700 --> 00:25:19.500
Yeah, it makes no difference to the plot.

590
00:25:19.559 --> 00:25:22.259
I mean, they're not doing it to get rid of them so we don't have

591
00:25:22.259 --> 00:25:23.339
to worry about them anymore.

592
00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:24.059
They escape.

593
00:25:24.119 --> 00:25:25.079
What if they escape?

594
00:25:25.140 --> 00:25:26.460
It's really...

595
00:25:26.460 --> 00:25:29.819
Yeah, it's just to tell you that Gavrock's evil in case you missed

596
00:25:29.819 --> 00:25:33.240
episode Wamori blew up a whole bunch of green rubber people.

597
00:25:33.299 --> 00:25:35.039
Yeah, and shot Ken Dawn.

598
00:25:35.099 --> 00:25:36.180
Like what do you want?

599
00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:37.200
He's definitely evil.

600
00:25:37.259 --> 00:25:41.039
Didn't you love that the Shimmer and people were actually those

601
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:43.019
little plastic soldiers from Toy Story?

602
00:25:43.079 --> 00:25:44.160
Yes, it's amazing.

603
00:25:44.220 --> 00:25:46.619
John Nathan Turner and Andrew Cartwell, though, were really

604
00:25:46.619 --> 00:25:47.099
annoyed.

605
00:25:47.160 --> 00:25:50.460
Because the script calls for them to be half reptilian, half

606
00:25:50.460 --> 00:25:52.859
insectoid with piercing green eyes.

607
00:25:52.859 --> 00:25:58.019
And the makeup artist kind of looked at the budget and went, okay

608
00:25:58.019 --> 00:26:01.259
I can give you literally this mask made out of a broken

609
00:26:01.259 --> 00:26:02.220
draconian.

610
00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:04.319
That's what it was.

611
00:26:04.380 --> 00:26:05.579
And you know what?

612
00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:08.519
As a kid, I was intrigued by the fact that the women were so

613
00:26:08.519 --> 00:26:11.519
beautiful and the men were so hideous by human ideas.

614
00:26:11.579 --> 00:26:13.680
Because it's because they're drones.

615
00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:16.019
Yeah, exactly Yeah, and they're bees.

616
00:26:16.079 --> 00:26:18.539
Can we get onto the troubling matter of Billy?

617
00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:20.880
Yes, I'm curious to hear what you think of this.

618
00:26:20.940 --> 00:26:21.960
What do you think, Nathan?

619
00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:26.099
I live tweeted when we were live tweeting.

620
00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:30.720
And this is part of the Genesis, I think, of Doctor Who facts, I

621
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:34.140
live tweeted that Billy discovered later to his horror that male

622
00:26:34.140 --> 00:26:36.539
shimmerans have no external genitalia.

623
00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:38.640
I don't know that Billy Herd either.

624
00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:42.420
I think Billy is a walking talking plastic bottom.

625
00:26:42.660 --> 00:26:44.400
We can see that.

626
00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:48.480
Have you noticed how quickly he falls for her after having

627
00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:50.039
absolutely no interest in Ray?

628
00:26:50.099 --> 00:26:52.140
And come on, it's it's the 50s.

629
00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:53.099
It's in Wales.

630
00:26:53.160 --> 00:26:54.779
There ain't a lot of bint about.

631
00:26:54.839 --> 00:26:57.779
If he was a strident heterosexual lad.

632
00:26:57.960 --> 00:27:00.119
No, I'm quite serious about this, he probably would have been on

633
00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:03.299
for Ray even for a quickie, but there is no attention at all.

634
00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:05.460
To me, he's ostensibly queer.

635
00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:08.759
Just like every man ace has ever fallen for in the history.

636
00:27:08.819 --> 00:27:09.299
Everything.

637
00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:12.720
There's a whole lot of queer theory in this. in these 3 years.

638
00:27:12.779 --> 00:27:15.480
But almost instantly.

639
00:27:15.480 --> 00:27:20.819
Just as bees do, and insects do with pheromones and with

640
00:27:20.819 --> 00:27:22.440
ultrasonic signals.

641
00:27:22.500 --> 00:27:25.619
And of course, we've seen her little, you know, sequence behind

642
00:27:25.619 --> 00:27:26.039
the ears.

643
00:27:26.099 --> 00:27:28.859
She just puts a little something behind her ears to attract men, as

644
00:27:28.859 --> 00:27:31.740
Liz Patterson used to say, Joan Collins did it with her ankles.

645
00:27:31.799 --> 00:27:33.839
She does it with sequence.

646
00:27:33.900 --> 00:27:38.819
Billy is inculcated into...

647
00:27:38.819 --> 00:27:39.599
Because they need a male.

648
00:27:39.660 --> 00:27:41.099
They need a male.

649
00:27:41.099 --> 00:27:43.680
Because she's the queen B. No, he wasn't. yeah he wasn't even

650
00:27:43.680 --> 00:27:44.039
queer.

651
00:27:44.099 --> 00:27:47.940
He is so married to the task far and beyond.

652
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:51.839
No, no, there is some external influence at play ferments.

653
00:27:51.900 --> 00:27:55.440
And let's just stop and think, what do most female insects or

654
00:27:55.440 --> 00:27:57.299
queens of hives do with their males?

655
00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:00.839
Ah, so she's going to bite his head off after coin.

656
00:28:00.900 --> 00:28:04.980
Well, they'll often also ingest their genitalia and feed off that

657
00:28:04.980 --> 00:28:10.859
as an added source of protein and DNA and hormones as they as they

658
00:28:10.859 --> 00:28:12.480
continue with their pregnancy cycle.

659
00:28:12.599 --> 00:28:16.740
Or yes, they bite their heads off. certain other things they do as

660
00:28:16.740 --> 00:28:16.980
well.

661
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:21.779
No, he is an unwilling member of this Frisson.

662
00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:24.420
And I think Ray has every reason to be worried.

663
00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:27.480
God, I thought the most disturbing thing about this story was

664
00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:29.759
Mel's incomprehensible racism at a green baby.

665
00:28:29.819 --> 00:28:32.819
Because she sees a green baby and her 1st reaction is to scream.

666
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:36.660
For God's sake, woman, you've encountered phallic yonic plant

667
00:28:36.660 --> 00:28:37.079
people.

668
00:28:37.859 --> 00:28:39.900
She's a big racist.

669
00:28:39.960 --> 00:28:42.359
I think she has womb terror.

670
00:28:43.079 --> 00:28:45.539
Wibbly wobbly womb terror.

671
00:28:45.539 --> 00:28:46.859
Doctor Who and the womb terror.

672
00:28:46.980 --> 00:28:48.240
The terror of the womb.

673
00:28:48.299 --> 00:28:51.960
I didn't think that worked initially because you've got the green

674
00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:55.200
slimy, animatronic baby and then in the next scene, it's an actual

675
00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:57.660
baby sort of haphazardly made up.

676
00:28:57.720 --> 00:29:00.180
And I kind of thought, oh, really?

677
00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:01.019
That's sort of...

678
00:29:01.019 --> 00:29:01.920
Vandral China.

679
00:29:01.980 --> 00:29:04.140
That's right. a little bit crummy.

680
00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:07.380
And I can understand people who are not sold on that.

681
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:09.660
But they don't know where she gets the jumper outfits.

682
00:29:09.720 --> 00:29:12.720
Like, are they just like compressible IKEA phone mattresses?

683
00:29:12.779 --> 00:29:15.839
Where does Billy Getty's gorgeous little they exude them.

684
00:29:15.900 --> 00:29:18.119
So that is actually part of his flesh.

685
00:29:18.180 --> 00:29:20.519
Well, yeah, it grows with the princess.

686
00:29:20.579 --> 00:29:21.359
So it must be.

687
00:29:21.420 --> 00:29:22.380
So you never heard.

688
00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:23.819
I don't know how they had children.

689
00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:25.559
Yeah, really.

690
00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:26.099
No.

691
00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:31.559
So, so, you know, they're bees and and so they have pupa stages

692
00:29:31.559 --> 00:29:32.759
and all of that sort of thing.

693
00:29:32.819 --> 00:29:34.619
They have drones and queens and stuff.

694
00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:35.700
I think that's sort of work.

695
00:29:35.700 --> 00:29:38.160
She does look like a young honour blackman or something.

696
00:29:38.220 --> 00:29:39.359
So she probably is going to eat him.

697
00:29:39.420 --> 00:29:40.859
Well, not only that.

698
00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:43.740
She was also an auditionee.

699
00:29:43.740 --> 00:29:47.339
Don't. to play Romana.

700
00:29:47.400 --> 00:29:49.619
Well, actually, that could have been quite interesting.

701
00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:52.259
She does seem a fair bit older than Billy.

702
00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:53.579
Is that just me?

703
00:29:53.640 --> 00:29:55.079
I always thought that she seemed dumb.

704
00:29:55.619 --> 00:29:58.079
She's older than me.

705
00:29:58.079 --> 00:29:59.039
Maybe a good 10 years, yeah.

706
00:29:59.099 --> 00:30:00.359
Everyone looks young to me.

707
00:30:00.420 --> 00:30:03.119
She does have that certain that certain cast, doesn't she?

708
00:30:03.180 --> 00:30:05.099
Belinda Mayne.

709
00:30:05.160 --> 00:30:07.980
I was thinking Lenny Maine, and I knew that was wrong.

710
00:30:08.220 --> 00:30:10.740
Because we're all excited to have seen Alpha Centauri last week as

711
00:30:10.740 --> 00:30:11.460
we record.

712
00:30:14.519 --> 00:30:15.240
Oh dear.

713
00:30:15.299 --> 00:30:19.019
Yeah, I mean, to be honest, Richard, I'd never I'd never

714
00:30:19.019 --> 00:30:21.000
considered that and it is rather disturbing.

715
00:30:21.059 --> 00:30:27.720
What I kind of saw when I watched it recently is, of course, it's

716
00:30:27.720 --> 00:30:33.240
1959, we're still in an era where, I mean, God, even now we're

717
00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:37.799
still in that era, unfortunately, where a single mother is looked

718
00:30:37.799 --> 00:30:38.339
down on.

719
00:30:38.460 --> 00:30:43.680
And Billy's 1st reaction when he sees that Delta has a baby and no

720
00:30:43.680 --> 00:30:44.819
husband is to protect them.

721
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:47.460
I found that to be a very noble thing.

722
00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:49.200
But he even goes into their cabin.

723
00:30:49.259 --> 00:30:52.680
That's a sacking offence at Butlin's or anywhere else.

724
00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:53.880
Yeah, of course.

725
00:30:53.940 --> 00:30:57.720
Being a single mother and being out about it was also not

726
00:30:57.720 --> 00:30:59.700
something that was permitted in holiday camps.

727
00:30:59.819 --> 00:31:03.420
But I think remember that Doctor Who isn't really strictly

728
00:31:03.420 --> 00:31:08.039
representing 1959 in England and it's just using kind of like the

729
00:31:08.039 --> 00:31:09.779
incidental features of it.

730
00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:11.279
And the show does this now.

731
00:31:11.339 --> 00:31:16.500
Like when it presents a past, it will often uh, try and present

732
00:31:16.500 --> 00:31:20.099
and will it always tries to present the past as we conceive it in

733
00:31:20.099 --> 00:31:21.660
2017 or whatever.

734
00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:23.400
I mean, that doesn't worry me so much.

735
00:31:23.460 --> 00:31:30.720
I do think that there is something a bit sweet about making, maybe

736
00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:37.140
not your kind of horrific love crafting version of a love story

737
00:31:37.140 --> 00:31:41.700
but making the end of it centre around a love story again in a way

738
00:31:41.700 --> 00:31:46.019
that is bound to annoy the Doctor Who Monster Book Brigade.

739
00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:49.500
I do remember a fan, I can't think who it was.

740
00:31:49.559 --> 00:31:52.079
I'm probably going to traduce someone really horribly here.

741
00:31:52.140 --> 00:31:57.180
It's probably a listener who, um, had a video recording of episode

742
00:31:57.180 --> 00:32:00.960
one of the greatest show in the galaxy, which cut out the bit

743
00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:06.059
where Flower Child and Bellboy Kiss because you, you know, that's

744
00:32:06.059 --> 00:32:06.420
kissing.

745
00:32:07.559 --> 00:32:13.619
And, and, and so having a romance, and then just so audaciously

746
00:32:13.619 --> 00:32:18.660
having a vocal soundtrack for the 1st time since the Last Chance

747
00:32:18.660 --> 00:32:21.960
saloon, when we're singing Here's to the Future and Love is the

748
00:32:21.960 --> 00:32:23.099
answer.

749
00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:25.500
And I just, I really like that.

750
00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:27.539
I think it's so fresh and so different.

751
00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:29.700
I even really like that as a song.

752
00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:34.799
To be honest, I have listened to the tracks from this that are on

753
00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:35.819
the soundtrack albums.

754
00:32:35.880 --> 00:32:38.819
And I think they do a pretty good job.

755
00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:40.920
It's kind, it's kind of cheesy.

756
00:32:40.920 --> 00:32:41.640
Would you have bought it for Christmas?

757
00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:42.539
Yep.

758
00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:46.500
I think but do you remember the 25th anniversary album, which I've

759
00:32:46.500 --> 00:32:48.960
got it in their stuff and Dominic I might have listened to it.

760
00:32:49.019 --> 00:32:51.180
I love the 8891 overture.

761
00:32:51.660 --> 00:32:56.460
It's, it's, um, it starts off with the explosion in the 1st few

762
00:32:56.460 --> 00:32:57.480
bars of the theme.

763
00:32:57.539 --> 00:33:01.500
But then it's a medley of kef music, including music that was

764
00:33:01.500 --> 00:33:03.180
never used on the show for a reason.

765
00:33:03.299 --> 00:33:07.319
But it's just this incredible overture of his oeuvre.

766
00:33:07.380 --> 00:33:10.380
I love Kev McCulloch's music a lot more than other people.

767
00:33:10.440 --> 00:33:13.140
I think there's 2 scores where he really gets it wrong, which is

768
00:33:13.140 --> 00:33:14.279
Paradise Towers and Battlefield.

769
00:33:14.339 --> 00:33:16.079
Oh my goodness, yes.

770
00:33:16.140 --> 00:33:18.839
But I think his other 2 this season, he gets right.

771
00:33:18.900 --> 00:33:19.859
Remembrance, he gets right.

772
00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:21.180
Remembrance is good.

773
00:33:21.299 --> 00:33:21.599
Yeah.

774
00:33:21.660 --> 00:33:25.019
I like, I, you know, I like the rest of his stuff and even

775
00:33:25.019 --> 00:33:27.119
Paradise Towers and Battlefield.

776
00:33:27.180 --> 00:33:28.019
There are bits I like.

777
00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:31.799
There's just bits that are atonal, but my favourite bit and I

778
00:33:31.799 --> 00:33:35.099
didn't mention it 2 weeks ago, so I have to mention it now, is the

779
00:33:35.099 --> 00:33:37.500
bit from Time in the Rani episode 4 where they're putting the

780
00:33:37.500 --> 00:33:40.619
bangles around the brain and all the geniuses are escaping and it

781
00:33:40.619 --> 00:33:42.359
quotes the Doctor Who theme.

782
00:33:42.420 --> 00:33:44.160
It's this action music.

783
00:33:44.220 --> 00:33:47.279
It's this heroic thing of, yeah, where, you know, we're finally

784
00:33:47.279 --> 00:33:47.940
getting it right.

785
00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:51.119
And it feels like Sylvester's doctor is saying triumphantly.

786
00:33:51.180 --> 00:33:52.259
Yes, now I have arrived.

787
00:33:52.559 --> 00:34:00.240
Do you know, it's the 3rd story in a row as well, where the threat

788
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:02.940
is defeated by everyone...

789
00:34:02.940 --> 00:34:07.380
Yes. different tasks to contribute to a plan.

790
00:34:07.380 --> 00:34:08.159
Yes.

791
00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:09.539
And they all work together.

792
00:34:09.659 --> 00:34:13.619
And I think that that's why I like Hawk and Y smaller here because

793
00:34:13.619 --> 00:34:19.079
they're part of like this big ensemble, that we like, and

794
00:34:19.079 --> 00:34:22.739
Garonwi's there and we're always...

795
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:25.559
Yeah, but again, that's why they should not have been killed off.

796
00:34:25.619 --> 00:34:26.460
Yeah.

797
00:34:26.519 --> 00:34:30.360
That's, it, it felt like a little moment of say would ringing in

798
00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:32.579
just a, yeah, one of his oral threats.

799
00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:36.599
You know, I think it's one of those things that was in the

800
00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:41.639
original storyline, and because it's so inconsequential, it gets

801
00:34:41.639 --> 00:34:42.179
overlooked.

802
00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:47.760
Yeah, I think, unlike the say would principle of, if you, if you

803
00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:49.920
have a violent character, you must show them being violent, you

804
00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:52.920
must show the effect of that violence, I think it's, it's an

805
00:34:52.920 --> 00:34:53.460
oversight.

806
00:34:53.519 --> 00:34:58.679
But I also think that they learn from it because I can't readily

807
00:34:58.679 --> 00:35:03.059
come up with an example from now to the end of the series where

808
00:35:03.059 --> 00:35:05.820
they have a death that is so meaningless and nasty.

809
00:35:05.880 --> 00:35:10.559
Except for next story when all the people evacuating Ice World get

810
00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:11.400
horribly blown up.

811
00:35:11.519 --> 00:35:14.280
Even so, I think that...

812
00:35:14.340 --> 00:35:20.400
That actual act that actual act in itself is a natural progression

813
00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:21.059
of the plot.

814
00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:26.400
I think the reaction I think the reaction after it is worse than

815
00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:27.000
in this story.

816
00:35:27.059 --> 00:35:31.619
I don't think this is a natural, you know, outcome of the way this

817
00:35:31.619 --> 00:35:32.880
plot has been going.

818
00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:35.280
Yeah, no, no, not in Delta.

819
00:35:35.340 --> 00:35:37.500
I mean, I mean in Dragon Fire next week.

820
00:35:37.559 --> 00:35:39.599
I do tune in for that one, yeah.

821
00:35:39.659 --> 00:35:44.699
I do think the one positive of it is it gives Bonnie a really good

822
00:35:44.699 --> 00:35:50.219
acting moment where she's where she's facing Gavrock and she's

823
00:35:50.219 --> 00:35:54.420
saying you've killed them all, you know, and for, especially for

824
00:35:54.420 --> 00:35:57.239
Bonnie, who is a good actress and has been given like a character

825
00:35:57.239 --> 00:36:01.500
composed of 100% cardboard, thank you, Messes Cornell Day and

826
00:36:01.500 --> 00:36:01.980
topic.

827
00:36:02.340 --> 00:36:07.860
To have that scene with Don Henderson, who is an excellent actor

828
00:36:07.860 --> 00:36:11.880
and of course, XYY man, um, you know, he played Bullman's

829
00:36:11.880 --> 00:36:13.500
Strangers, 3 different series.

830
00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:15.960
It's always playing the same tough guy part.

831
00:36:16.079 --> 00:36:16.860
Yeah, yeah.

832
00:36:16.920 --> 00:36:20.340
I think, I think that's, it gives Bonnie a really effective

833
00:36:20.340 --> 00:36:20.760
moment.

834
00:36:20.760 --> 00:36:27.960
And it leads to Silv's 1st really big convincing, in my opinion

835
00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:31.679
confrontation with a villain where he comes to see Gavrock and

836
00:36:31.679 --> 00:36:34.860
tells him you're going to lose because all you believe in is

837
00:36:34.860 --> 00:36:35.099
death.

838
00:36:35.340 --> 00:36:38.760
And he just says, right, I'm taking these people and I'm leaving

839
00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:39.179
now.

840
00:36:39.239 --> 00:36:44.880
And I love that cliffhanger of, oh, I think I've got a little too

841
00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:45.300
far.

842
00:36:45.420 --> 00:36:46.679
It's the shot.

843
00:36:46.739 --> 00:36:50.460
It's the final point of view shot from where Don Henderson is

844
00:36:50.460 --> 00:36:54.119
where all 3 of them look up sort of rather guiltily and

845
00:36:54.119 --> 00:36:58.679
apprehensively and then we go to the closing sting.

846
00:36:58.739 --> 00:37:00.780
I think it's such a great cliffhanger.

847
00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:04.619
And there's a hilarious blooper from it where Silv walks towards

848
00:37:04.619 --> 00:37:06.719
the camera and says his line.

849
00:37:06.780 --> 00:37:08.940
But when he says, I think I've gone a little too far, he has

850
00:37:08.940 --> 00:37:11.460
actually missed his mark and he's behind the pillowcase.

851
00:37:11.460 --> 00:37:13.860
You just hear something behind the camera.

852
00:37:13.860 --> 00:37:15.480
Yeah, Sylvester, you have.

853
00:37:15.539 --> 00:37:16.619
You need to go one step back.

854
00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:21.239
Everyone fooling about.

855
00:37:21.300 --> 00:37:23.039
Did you know with these two?

856
00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:24.960
And the one following was Dragonfly.

857
00:37:25.019 --> 00:37:27.900
We touched on, they were made as one story for budget reasons.

858
00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:30.900
I think they did actually start that the previous year.

859
00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:35.219
So I know all of the production codes of every Doctor Who story

860
00:37:35.219 --> 00:37:35.820
obviously.

861
00:37:35.880 --> 00:37:42.780
4 Q. steady on.

862
00:37:42.840 --> 00:37:43.679
That's how it's going to be.

863
00:37:43.739 --> 00:37:46.079
The power of Malcolm Croll.

864
00:37:46.860 --> 00:37:49.980
So the last 2 stories of last season.

865
00:37:50.039 --> 00:37:55.260
So the vervoids and what I'd like to call Time Incorporated these

866
00:37:55.260 --> 00:37:55.679
days.

867
00:37:55.739 --> 00:37:57.239
I think that's 7C.

868
00:37:57.300 --> 00:37:58.260
They have the same.

869
00:37:58.440 --> 00:37:59.820
Yeah, 7 C one and 7 C2.

870
00:37:59.940 --> 00:38:02.639
And so they do that from year on in.

871
00:38:02.699 --> 00:38:04.860
Star Wars robots.

872
00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:10.320
And so, you know, one of them is all on location and the other

873
00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:13.980
ones entirely in the studio and it makes for 16 parter.

874
00:38:14.039 --> 00:38:17.940
But having all location stuff is just terrific.

875
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:20.219
It really gives us freshness and hope.

876
00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:22.559
You know, this was meant to be the serious script though.

877
00:38:22.619 --> 00:38:24.659
It was discussed with Ian Briggs.

878
00:38:25.260 --> 00:38:28.079
And Dragonfire was written as a comedy.

879
00:38:28.139 --> 00:38:31.320
Yeah, we'll talk more next week about what Dragon Fire was written

880
00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:33.000
as, but yeah, this was going to be the serious one.

881
00:38:33.059 --> 00:38:35.579
And just in the natural process of writing, this became more

882
00:38:35.579 --> 00:38:35.940
comedic.

883
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:39.659
And Andrew Cartmel went back to Ian Briggs and said, look, I'm

884
00:38:39.659 --> 00:38:42.420
really sorry, we need to take the jokey stuff out and make it a

885
00:38:42.420 --> 00:38:43.260
bit more serious.

886
00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:47.099
And Briggs apparently said, for reasons we'll discuss next week.

887
00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:49.079
Actually, there's some elements I think aren't working and they

888
00:38:49.079 --> 00:38:50.039
are the jokey elements.

889
00:38:50.099 --> 00:38:51.119
Yeah, I'm happy to take those out.

890
00:38:51.179 --> 00:38:55.079
But it is a beginning of the sort of hitchhikers of vacation of

891
00:38:55.079 --> 00:38:58.980
Doctor Who's vision of the future and what science fiction is.

892
00:38:59.039 --> 00:39:02.699
And so next week we get a shopping centre in space.

893
00:39:02.820 --> 00:39:06.480
But this one also crosses over, you know, with Tollbooth

894
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:06.659
everything.

895
00:39:06.780 --> 00:39:08.579
With Victoria Woods view of the future.

896
00:39:08.639 --> 00:39:12.960
Do you remember watching Hugh Lloyd on Victoria Wooders seen on TV

897
00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:14.099
in the 80s?

898
00:39:14.159 --> 00:39:14.699
No.

899
00:39:14.699 --> 00:39:17.400
Yeah, Garonwi was in that all the time.

900
00:39:17.519 --> 00:39:19.380
He was also in, I'm just trying to think what else he was.

901
00:39:19.500 --> 00:39:22.320
Yeah, he was in Hancock's half hour because Kenneth Williams

902
00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:27.659
didn't transfer over to the TV version of Hancock because Hancock

903
00:39:27.659 --> 00:39:28.920
he just, I don't want to work with him anymore.

904
00:39:28.980 --> 00:39:30.780
I want to.

905
00:39:30.780 --> 00:39:34.619
And yeah, and then he had his own show called Hugh and I, but Hugh

906
00:39:34.619 --> 00:39:37.380
Lloyd was like, again, there's all these big names turning up.

907
00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:38.820
He's meant to be Merlin.

908
00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:39.480
Did you know that?

909
00:39:39.539 --> 00:39:41.400
That's the footnotes.

910
00:39:41.460 --> 00:39:45.659
Yeah, yeah. you know, fan theories have been, oh, he's some sort

911
00:39:45.659 --> 00:39:46.320
of time lord.

912
00:39:46.380 --> 00:39:47.940
But in Cole's interpretation.

913
00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:50.880
He's just a man who is incredibly in tune with nature.

914
00:39:50.940 --> 00:39:54.239
And if you are incredibly in tune with nature, nothing can

915
00:39:54.239 --> 00:39:56.519
surprise you because it's all part of the natural order.

916
00:39:56.579 --> 00:39:59.099
And that's why nothing surprises him.

917
00:39:59.159 --> 00:40:01.860
He just he just kind of goes, oh, okay, that's what's happening

918
00:40:01.860 --> 00:40:02.159
now.

919
00:40:02.219 --> 00:40:04.619
So when he's saying things like, I shall talk to my bees.

920
00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:06.179
Of course he's not speaking literally.

921
00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:10.679
But what he's kind of saying is, they are nature, and I am nature

922
00:40:10.679 --> 00:40:13.139
and I'll listen to the nature of the world.

923
00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:15.780
The green man or the yes.

924
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:17.039
Yeah, it's a lot more human.

925
00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:21.480
The alien interpretation we as fans, some of us are fans, have

926
00:40:21.480 --> 00:40:22.619
tried to apply to it.

927
00:40:22.679 --> 00:40:25.139
Yeah, it has to be something from the Doctor Who monster book

928
00:40:25.139 --> 00:40:25.619
Brendan.

929
00:40:25.619 --> 00:40:26.219
It can't be bad.

930
00:40:26.280 --> 00:40:29.159
No, no, it's it's just a different human way.

931
00:40:29.219 --> 00:40:30.719
Oh, looking at it.

932
00:40:30.780 --> 00:40:32.940
Turn the Hunter, the whole, yeah.

933
00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:35.400
It could have been Sarah Sutton, really, couldn't it?

934
00:40:35.460 --> 00:40:37.079
But it wasn't, it was you, Lloyd.

935
00:40:37.139 --> 00:40:38.460
With a moon stallion?

936
00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:42.599
I think it's lovely that he's the one who delivers the expository

937
00:40:42.599 --> 00:40:48.659
dialogue about how Delta's child is developing, not directly, but

938
00:40:48.659 --> 00:40:51.659
he's the one who explains the life cycle of the bees and obviously

939
00:40:51.659 --> 00:40:55.199
meant to understand that as an explanation for what. for the

940
00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:55.619
entire thing.

941
00:40:55.679 --> 00:40:56.639
And he gets the last shot.

942
00:40:56.699 --> 00:40:58.619
Yes, Sylvester.

943
00:40:58.679 --> 00:40:59.400
Yeah.

944
00:40:59.460 --> 00:41:00.300
And that's the thing.

945
00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:01.559
People have kind of hinged on that.

946
00:41:01.619 --> 00:41:04.739
Oh, he's a time lord, whereas Cole's thing is just like, okay, so

947
00:41:04.739 --> 00:41:06.360
he's seen a box disappear.

948
00:41:06.420 --> 00:41:08.099
That box disappears.

949
00:41:08.159 --> 00:41:09.179
That's what it does.

950
00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:10.679
Happy travels, doctor.

951
00:41:10.739 --> 00:41:11.460
And he walks off.

952
00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:12.780
I think he's Merlin.

953
00:41:12.840 --> 00:41:13.559
I'm happy to take it.

954
00:41:13.619 --> 00:41:15.480
Yeah, yeah, without the ginger hair.

955
00:41:15.539 --> 00:41:19.860
What a lovely character to create, you know, rather than a

956
00:41:19.860 --> 00:41:23.880
mercenary who's working for the Daleks rather than...

957
00:41:23.940 --> 00:41:28.380
You know, yeah, rather than a scientist who wants to exploit plant

958
00:41:28.380 --> 00:41:29.639
people as slave labour.

959
00:41:29.699 --> 00:41:31.920
No, we'll have a beekeeper who's just...

960
00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:33.119
Grow rude faces on them.

961
00:41:33.179 --> 00:41:33.719
Yes.

962
00:41:33.780 --> 00:41:38.219
In fact, maybe it's telling that the villains are space

963
00:41:38.219 --> 00:41:42.719
mercenaries who are wearing the helmets from Earthshock and are

964
00:41:42.719 --> 00:41:46.019
coming in to make a really fun story, really sort of terribly

965
00:41:46.019 --> 00:41:50.219
boring and make lots of nods to 20th century cinema.

966
00:41:50.280 --> 00:41:53.820
This whole season is also nodding, not just on post-modern

967
00:41:53.820 --> 00:41:54.119
theory.

968
00:41:54.179 --> 00:42:00.119
This is Kurosawa's run and Kegamusha. where I saw summarised war.

969
00:42:00.179 --> 00:42:00.960
Banners.

970
00:42:01.019 --> 00:42:02.820
Yeah, yeah. just that the Japanese armies did.

971
00:42:02.940 --> 00:42:03.719
Ron is beautiful.

972
00:42:03.780 --> 00:42:07.679
His take on King Lear, it was later 80s. just gorgeous.

973
00:42:07.739 --> 00:42:09.360
Yellow banners and red bears.

974
00:42:09.420 --> 00:42:10.199
Beautiful to look at.

975
00:42:10.260 --> 00:42:12.840
Which you're on right now at Sydney Film Festival.

976
00:42:12.900 --> 00:42:15.360
Friend of the podcast, Greg Miller is sitting in a cinema right

977
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:18.719
now watching all these these Japanese, which again, are all takes

978
00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:19.559
on Shakespeare.

979
00:42:19.679 --> 00:42:22.679
And I mean, you were saying earlier how seriously Don Henderson

980
00:42:22.679 --> 00:42:23.159
took this.

981
00:42:23.219 --> 00:42:25.440
Things like his own ham.

982
00:42:26.519 --> 00:42:29.219
Well, the ham was cured it himself.

983
00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:31.019
The ham was his idea.

984
00:42:31.079 --> 00:42:35.400
He said to um, he said to Gary Downey, how about I eat a raw ham

985
00:42:35.400 --> 00:42:38.099
and Gary and Gary Downey pretty much said, I'm not having you on

986
00:42:38.099 --> 00:42:38.820
the trots yet.

987
00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:42.059
No more cannibalism on this show, lovey.

988
00:42:42.119 --> 00:42:43.559
So.

989
00:42:43.619 --> 00:42:45.239
Well done.

990
00:42:45.840 --> 00:42:50.159
So he got a ham covered in cling wrap and put smoked salmon over

991
00:42:50.159 --> 00:42:50.400
the top.

992
00:42:50.820 --> 00:42:54.119
And that's what that's what Gavrock's eating.

993
00:42:54.179 --> 00:42:55.440
So indulgent.

994
00:42:55.500 --> 00:43:01.320
But in terms of the Bannermen, the reddish pinkish tongues, that

995
00:43:01.320 --> 00:43:02.639
was Don Henderson's idea.

996
00:43:02.699 --> 00:43:08.820
And the sort of hissing battle cry, that was Don Henderson saying

997
00:43:08.940 --> 00:43:10.019
to be in the room for that listener.

998
00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:13.199
The these people are an army.

999
00:43:13.260 --> 00:43:16.079
They should have some kind of recognisable thing.

1000
00:43:16.139 --> 00:43:17.579
He like, you know, I know it's not all about us.

1001
00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:19.019
So how about something small like this?

1002
00:43:19.079 --> 00:43:21.900
And Cyclops, X-Men bicycle glasses.

1003
00:43:22.019 --> 00:43:24.719
Yeah, I still want a pair of those.

1004
00:43:24.780 --> 00:43:26.760
I think you can go down to paddies and get one.

1005
00:43:27.599 --> 00:43:29.880
What's changed from a fiver, though?

1006
00:43:29.940 --> 00:43:33.960
Yeah, no, I think I think the Bannerman being so...

1007
00:43:35.159 --> 00:43:37.440
So utterly evil, if you like.

1008
00:43:37.500 --> 00:43:40.139
So deliberate, you know, they're dressed in it's black and red.

1009
00:43:40.199 --> 00:43:41.099
They're aggressive.

1010
00:43:41.159 --> 00:43:43.019
There's no redeeming features.

1011
00:43:43.079 --> 00:43:46.739
I think it's a deliberate effort to counterpoint that with the

1012
00:43:46.739 --> 00:43:49.679
gentleness of all the other characters and Garonway living with

1013
00:43:49.679 --> 00:43:54.239
nature and Delta trying to make her species survive and Ray being

1014
00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:56.940
in love with Billy, but being in love with him enough to

1015
00:43:56.940 --> 00:43:58.139
understand that.

1016
00:43:58.199 --> 00:44:00.300
She's not what he wants.

1017
00:44:00.360 --> 00:44:03.360
Now, I'm still looking at this, Richard, as the idea of free will

1018
00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:04.380
rather than pheromones.

1019
00:44:04.440 --> 00:44:06.599
But I think that's the thing.

1020
00:44:06.659 --> 00:44:07.860
These 2 forces come together.

1021
00:44:07.860 --> 00:44:10.860
And then at the end, we get the song, which is the message of the

1022
00:44:10.860 --> 00:44:11.280
story.

1023
00:44:11.340 --> 00:44:12.420
Love is the answer.

1024
00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:16.559
I'm not necessarily saying it's a conscious dig at Eric Saywood

1025
00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:17.519
and I don't think it is.

1026
00:44:17.519 --> 00:44:20.039
Like Cartmel...

1027
00:44:20.159 --> 00:44:24.300
I'm like, say, Christopher Hamilton Bitmead, who has been critical

1028
00:44:24.300 --> 00:44:27.659
of the script's editors before him, in a professional sense.

1029
00:44:27.780 --> 00:44:32.820
I've never really heard Cartmel sort of pointing at Eric Seywood

1030
00:44:32.820 --> 00:44:33.840
and saying this was wrong, that was wrong.

1031
00:44:33.900 --> 00:44:36.059
He kind of says too much.

1032
00:44:36.119 --> 00:44:38.699
Too much was revealed about the doctor, so we wanted him to be

1033
00:44:38.699 --> 00:44:39.300
more mysterious.

1034
00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:44.039
But I think it is just a rejection in general, a violent

1035
00:44:44.039 --> 00:44:44.699
storytelling.

1036
00:44:44.760 --> 00:44:47.639
And the kind of might is right thing.

1037
00:44:47.639 --> 00:44:49.980
And it's saying, actually, no, what all you need is love.

1038
00:44:50.039 --> 00:44:53.159
Well, I mean, there's not much interest in sketching out the

1039
00:44:53.159 --> 00:44:55.920
Bannermen and who they are and why they are.

1040
00:44:55.980 --> 00:44:58.739
They're not supposed to be... not the focus of the story.

1041
00:44:58.800 --> 00:45:00.119
They're not what we're interested in.

1042
00:45:00.179 --> 00:45:03.539
They're there to motivate the flight of the Shimmerons, and that's

1043
00:45:03.539 --> 00:45:05.760
really, you know, all they're there for.

1044
00:45:05.820 --> 00:45:08.639
Which was the title of this episode.

1045
00:45:08.639 --> 00:45:11.219
Almost right up until they made the title cards.

1046
00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:14.460
It was the title of the episode all through the actual filming

1047
00:45:14.460 --> 00:45:14.940
period.

1048
00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:17.579
So it started off as Flight of the Shimmer and Briefly Delta and

1049
00:45:17.579 --> 00:45:20.219
the Bannerman, Flight of the Shimmer in again, and then Delta and

1050
00:45:20.219 --> 00:45:22.380
the Bannerman, I think, literally 2 days before they made the

1051
00:45:22.380 --> 00:45:23.039
opening credits.

1052
00:45:23.099 --> 00:45:25.380
It was pushing the rock and roll thing, because James he thought

1053
00:45:25.380 --> 00:45:26.699
it sounded like a 50s band.

1054
00:45:26.760 --> 00:45:31.079
And also like an Echo in the Barney, which was also meant to sound

1055
00:45:31.079 --> 00:45:33.300
like a 50s. during broadcast.

1056
00:45:33.360 --> 00:45:36.960
A a Merseyside band contacted the production office and said, you

1057
00:45:36.960 --> 00:45:38.760
do know where called Delta and the Battle.

1058
00:45:38.820 --> 00:45:42.480
No. no idea how much truth there was to it.

1059
00:45:42.539 --> 00:45:45.420
Like they didn't even respond and the band never wrote in again.

1060
00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:46.199
But yeah.

1061
00:45:47.039 --> 00:45:50.099
Second Doctor Who story to have and in the title.

1062
00:45:50.699 --> 00:45:53.699
Silurian, so everywhere.

1063
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:54.420
No, that doesn't count.

1064
00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:56.760
So which one are you talking about?

1065
00:45:57.480 --> 00:45:59.219
Oh, yes, of course.

1066
00:45:59.340 --> 00:46:00.960
Tera and the autumn.

1067
00:46:02.280 --> 00:46:03.780
Actually, we should rename all of them.

1068
00:46:03.780 --> 00:46:05.039
Horror and Fang Rock.

1069
00:46:05.639 --> 00:46:08.219
Doctor Who and the Silurians.

1070
00:46:08.280 --> 00:46:10.380
The power and croll.

1071
00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:16.500
He didn't write for the series again.

1072
00:46:16.559 --> 00:46:17.159
Ever again.

1073
00:46:17.219 --> 00:46:19.980
He said it was absolutely horrendous.

1074
00:46:20.039 --> 00:46:20.639
Oh, no.

1075
00:46:21.480 --> 00:46:23.039
No, he was very tried by it.

1076
00:46:23.099 --> 00:46:24.480
He found it tiresome, I believe.

1077
00:46:24.539 --> 00:46:27.480
He had watched Doctor Who was a kid and he did he did enjoy it.

1078
00:46:27.539 --> 00:46:30.659
I believe he and Cartmel did discuss him writing for the series

1079
00:46:30.659 --> 00:46:31.860
again, but it just didn't come off.

1080
00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:32.699
Bugger off.

1081
00:46:32.760 --> 00:46:33.840
No, he said no.

1082
00:46:33.900 --> 00:46:34.619
He said no.

1083
00:46:34.679 --> 00:46:36.179
Yeah, he said, no, I was exhausted by it.

1084
00:46:36.300 --> 00:46:38.460
There were so many rewrites and changes and he said, I couldn't

1085
00:46:38.460 --> 00:46:42.300
keep up and the fee was burnt a 3rd of the way through because

1086
00:46:42.300 --> 00:46:44.579
they just kept making him do rewrites and rewrites.

1087
00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:45.480
Part two.

1088
00:46:45.480 --> 00:46:49.920
Apparently not working working for the 1st season, 2005.

1089
00:46:50.099 --> 00:46:51.780
I pick for a lot of those, right?

1090
00:46:51.840 --> 00:46:55.260
I think it's the... the funnest and wittiest script we've had in a

1091
00:46:55.260 --> 00:46:55.559
long time.

1092
00:46:55.619 --> 00:46:56.880
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1093
00:46:56.940 --> 00:46:59.519
I think I think possibly since Frontios.

1094
00:46:59.579 --> 00:47:01.320
And Wyatt script wasn't bad either.

1095
00:47:01.380 --> 00:47:04.019
No, no, there's maybe the realisation.

1096
00:47:04.079 --> 00:47:07.019
But, yeah, this is stirring.

1097
00:47:07.079 --> 00:47:10.019
But I mean, it's more fun, I think, than Frontios.

1098
00:47:10.079 --> 00:47:11.519
I think Frontios is really accomplished.

1099
00:47:11.579 --> 00:47:12.659
I really like it a great deal.

1100
00:47:12.719 --> 00:47:14.280
Yeah, it's not fun though, is it?

1101
00:47:14.340 --> 00:47:17.639
Well, it's also a space colony and a spaceship and meteorite.

1102
00:47:17.699 --> 00:47:19.139
Proper 70s space opera.

1103
00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:19.380
Yeah.

1104
00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:22.559
Yeah, this just feels so fun and breezy.

1105
00:47:22.619 --> 00:47:25.860
And again, we get Silv being melancholy at the end when he's

1106
00:47:25.860 --> 00:47:26.519
talking about love.

1107
00:47:26.519 --> 00:47:30.599
And, you know, you really get the impression in that scene that he

1108
00:47:30.599 --> 00:47:34.199
knows what he's talking about through bitter and painful personal

1109
00:47:34.199 --> 00:47:37.860
experience without him having to say, oh, I've got a granddaughter

1110
00:47:37.860 --> 00:47:39.659
living in the 22nd century, you know.

1111
00:47:39.719 --> 00:47:41.039
I locked her out.

1112
00:47:41.099 --> 00:47:48.239
And on a war-torn radioactive, binge bit of the South Thames where

1113
00:47:48.239 --> 00:47:49.619
the fish were rancid.

1114
00:47:49.619 --> 00:47:52.139
And that's just the one she married.

1115
00:47:55.199 --> 00:47:57.179
You never really get over your 1st time, do you?

1116
00:48:13.559 --> 00:48:18.780
Dill is now, we take off from South Wales now, and, uh, you know, I

1117
00:48:18.780 --> 00:48:21.239
think we need to stock up the freezer, so it's off to Iceworld

1118
00:48:21.239 --> 00:48:23.579
with Dragonfire next week, do come back for that.

1119
00:48:23.639 --> 00:48:26.280
You can find us online at flightthroughentirety.sexy, flight

1120
00:48:26.280 --> 00:48:29.639
through entirety on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at FTE podcast

1121
00:48:29.639 --> 00:48:30.480
on Twitter.

1122
00:48:30.780 --> 00:48:31.860
Over on Bondfinger.

1123
00:48:31.920 --> 00:48:35.340
We are on a top of things with the Pierce Brosnan era of James

1124
00:48:35.340 --> 00:48:35.880
Bond.

1125
00:48:35.940 --> 00:48:38.820
You can find that at bondfinger.com, bondfinger on Facebook and

1126
00:48:38.820 --> 00:48:42.300
Apple Podcasts and at bondfingercast on Twitter.

1127
00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:46.739
Don't forget, you can still vote in our Peter Davison commentary

1128
00:48:46.739 --> 00:48:47.820
extravaganza.

1129
00:48:47.880 --> 00:48:51.539
Your choices are for Doomsday, Arc of Infinity, Enlightenment, and

1130
00:48:51.539 --> 00:48:53.820
Resurrection of the Daleks.

1131
00:48:53.880 --> 00:48:55.440
Resurrection and the dialogues.

1132
00:48:56.280 --> 00:49:00.179
Until next week, may none of your bees actually be stock footage

1133
00:49:00.179 --> 00:49:02.400
of locusts, seriously, pause it and have a look.

1134
00:49:02.460 --> 00:49:03.960
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1135
00:49:04.019 --> 00:49:24.059
Good night. night That was Flight Through Entirety with Nathan

1136
00:49:24.059 --> 00:49:26.159
Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

1137
00:49:26.219 --> 00:49:28.980
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, logo designed by Anthony

1138
00:49:28.980 --> 00:49:29.579
Wells.

1139
00:49:29.639 --> 00:49:33.119
This episode, Bitter and Painful, was recorded on the 12th of June

1140
00:49:33.119 --> 00:49:33.599
2017.

1141
00:49:33.780 --> 00:49:36.480
The next episode will be released on the 16th July.

1142
00:49:42.599 --> 00:49:45.900
Delta could have saved herself a lot of trouble if she just had

1143
00:49:45.900 --> 00:49:46.920
access to dating apps.

1144
00:49:47.039 --> 00:49:50.880
Queen seeks slave drone for companionship and enslaved propagation

1145
00:49:50.880 --> 00:49:52.980
must own, own leathers.

1146
00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:04.500
Delta and the Bennermen, 12th of April.

1147
00:50:04.739 --> 00:50:09.239
It's not the 12th of April, you silly man. 12th of June.

1148
00:50:09.539 --> 00:50:11.760
Sorry, I got excited.

1149
00:50:12.480 --> 00:50:14.460
You silly man.

1150
00:50:14.460 --> 00:50:15.900
Suddenly, suddenly.

1151
00:50:16.019 --> 00:50:18.960
Suddenly we're all just footnoting shard now.

1152
00:50:19.320 --> 00:50:21.420
You silly man.

1153
00:50:21.480 --> 00:50:22.380
Doctor.

1154
00:50:23.219 --> 00:50:25.739
I'm going to tell my Williams.