WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 13:52:02 1 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:58.439 Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast who gets all their life advice from Welsh bees. 2 00:00:58.500 --> 00:00:59.100 I'm Brendan. 3 00:00:59.159 --> 00:00:59.939 I'm Nathan. 4 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:03.899 And I'm Ruth Maddock in a hula skirt for this episode, if anyone remembers her. 5 00:01:03.960 --> 00:01:07.799 It's Todd's most favourite story ever, and we can say that because he's not here. 6 00:01:07.859 --> 00:01:09.239 It's Delta of the Batman. 7 00:01:09.299 --> 00:01:09.719 Hurrah! 8 00:01:30.780 --> 00:01:33.180 Actually, to be fair, he doesn't hate it as much as he used to. 9 00:01:33.239 --> 00:01:36.659 Anyway, I just say this is my favourite Sylvester story. 10 00:01:36.719 --> 00:01:38.099 It's brilliant. 11 00:01:38.159 --> 00:01:39.180 I love this so much. 12 00:01:39.239 --> 00:01:50.159 I can't tell you the joy of a very windy 1988 here in Sydney and gray and then this disappeared and I thought, ah, I'm home. 13 00:01:50.219 --> 00:01:51.599 It's beautiful. 14 00:01:51.719 --> 00:01:52.500 This is so lovely. 15 00:01:52.560 --> 00:01:56.579 This had a mystique for me as a kid because the 1st time around we missed episode two. 16 00:01:56.640 --> 00:01:59.099 So I only had episode one and episode three. 17 00:01:59.099 --> 00:02:03.239 And it's amazing, you know, it still pretty much hangs together and we had watched it. 18 00:02:03.540 --> 00:02:11.400 And you know, me being 5 years old, didn't have a great memory, but my brother was able to tell me what happened in the middle episode. 19 00:02:11.460 --> 00:02:12.900 It wasn't for very long. 20 00:02:12.960 --> 00:02:19.500 I think they repeated Sill's 1st season remembrance almost straight away after the 1st run and we then got the 2nd episode. 21 00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:21.719 So on the Paradise Towers tape. 22 00:02:21.780 --> 00:02:27.419 I had episodes one and 3 and then on another tape I had all 3 episodes of Delta and the Batter Men. 23 00:02:27.479 --> 00:02:29.039 The past was miserable. 24 00:02:29.580 --> 00:02:31.620 All archeology. 25 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:37.919 Richard, you are so right that this story is so bright and breezy and fun. 26 00:02:37.979 --> 00:02:43.800 It was written by Malcolm Cole, who was Andrew Cartmel's 1st personally commissioned script for the show. 27 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:47.460 Malcolm Cole had grown up in Zimbabwe. 28 00:02:47.520 --> 00:02:54.360 But John Nathan Turner suggested the location of holiday camps, which Malcolm Cole was really big fan of. 29 00:02:54.419 --> 00:02:55.439 His brother lived in Wales. 30 00:02:55.500 --> 00:03:00.000 So there were lots of holiday camps around and Malcolm... an Old Testament superhero. 31 00:03:00.060 --> 00:03:06.539 And Malcolm Cole as a child had gone on a holiday to a holiday camp and it was a really happy memory for him. 32 00:03:06.599 --> 00:03:10.020 So he was he was thrilled to be writing for that. 33 00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:14.039 And the holiday... casual alcoholism and incipient, really. 34 00:03:14.099 --> 00:03:16.199 Yes it really was. interesting time. 35 00:03:16.259 --> 00:03:17.939 Well, get more to that, won't we? 36 00:03:17.939 --> 00:03:18.960 Later on in the episode. 37 00:03:19.020 --> 00:03:31.439 I think this is the darkest Doctor Who story so far about relationships and why people are together and what brings people together. 38 00:03:31.500 --> 00:03:32.879 This is a very adult story. 39 00:03:33.000 --> 00:03:33.960 It is. 40 00:03:34.020 --> 00:03:35.340 And Doctor Who... 41 00:03:35.340 --> 00:03:39.479 Pretty much almost always very poorly handles romance. 42 00:03:39.539 --> 00:03:50.219 Well, normally we just shut the doors and tell them they're better off without us and to go on boldly and cross pollinate our double entendres, don't we? 43 00:03:50.280 --> 00:03:50.639 normally. 44 00:03:50.879 --> 00:03:54.240 But yeah, yeah. 45 00:03:54.599 --> 00:04:02.159 Yeah, romance is usually just used in Doctor Who as a way to justify contract roulette and write out the girlie of the time. 46 00:04:02.219 --> 00:04:07.139 Although Joe gets a little off-world romance, doesn't she, every time she goes to another planet? 47 00:04:07.199 --> 00:04:09.960 That's true, which is reasonably well handled. 48 00:04:10.139 --> 00:04:10.979 And space slaggy. 49 00:04:11.580 --> 00:04:24.660 And I think Joe is one of only 2 characters who actually gets a decent romantic exit, the other one being, in my opinion, Susan, you know, because that relationship develops over a period of weeks. it? 50 00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:31.379 Yeah, there's the whole bit with the fish in front of the fire. slapping down, Steve, and she mixes him something toxic. 51 00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:35.279 They're just saying don't put bodies, you know, dump in the river. cookies of fish there. 52 00:04:35.339 --> 00:04:39.360 And then he's sitting there. very obsequious to the doctor, though, isn't he, David Campbell? 53 00:04:39.420 --> 00:04:42.300 And then, of course, they just, no, just, oh, she looks like she's a bit flirty. 54 00:04:42.360 --> 00:04:45.720 Right, sort you misses. locks the door and buckers off. 55 00:04:46.259 --> 00:04:47.579 Really? 56 00:04:47.639 --> 00:04:49.199 I think I true late as well. 57 00:04:49.259 --> 00:04:51.600 I think it's the most extraordinary actor. 58 00:04:52.139 --> 00:04:55.199 Dr. Ness, yeah, but anyway. 59 00:04:55.319 --> 00:05:02.040 But, you know, here we have Not so much from Billy, but really on the part of Ray, a real human expression. 60 00:05:04.139 --> 00:05:10.139 Well, I think it's such a clever idea that when they're developing her character, they say, you know what? 61 00:05:10.199 --> 00:05:15.120 We may keep her on as a companion because it means she gets well-rounded characterisation. 62 00:05:15.180 --> 00:05:16.079 And you know what? 63 00:05:16.139 --> 00:05:20.579 Yes, she's pining after Billy, but that doesn't make her this complete simpering. 64 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:22.500 Oh, he does, he's not interested in me. 65 00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:24.120 I'm gonna collapse in a heap. 66 00:05:24.180 --> 00:05:28.379 No, in fact, she's quite happy to get the bike. all right, you bugger off into space. 67 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:29.160 I'll have the bike. 68 00:05:29.220 --> 00:05:32.399 This vibrate's a lot heavier than you ever did in queer coot. 69 00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:38.220 There's that beautiful bit where the doctor calls her my dear in Welsh. 70 00:05:38.279 --> 00:05:40.259 You know, my weak Harriad. 71 00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:44.279 I think they both try and outdo each other's vows, don't they? 72 00:05:44.339 --> 00:05:51.839 It would have been. can you imagine a whole series with Sarah Griffiths and and Sylvester McCoy, you would not have been able to understand a single word. 73 00:05:51.899 --> 00:05:56.819 As much as I like Ray, I think if you had have kept her on, it would have been really nice and sweet. 74 00:05:56.819 --> 00:06:03.839 The way that Sylv and Bonnie are nice and sweet together, we wouldn't have had the sort of rough edges we get next year and the year after with Ace. 75 00:06:03.899 --> 00:06:07.560 But that being said, I do love her and Silv together in this story. 76 00:06:07.620 --> 00:06:09.060 I think she's extraordinary. 77 00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:15.660 You know how close it was that Dorothy almost got the part. because Sophie and Ace are the same person, really. 78 00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:22.500 But, you know, because you remember that, you remember that on every letter that went through, has own leathers. 79 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:24.480 Like on a black man's back in the room. 80 00:06:24.540 --> 00:06:31.079 Did they actually swap was originally Sarah Griffiths going to play... 81 00:06:31.139 --> 00:06:34.079 I don't know about that, but Sophie was definitely up for this part, wasn't she? 82 00:06:34.139 --> 00:06:39.420 So initial auditions for Ray and Ace, it was everyone was auditioning for both parts. 83 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:40.620 Elizabeth Spriggs. 84 00:06:40.920 --> 00:06:42.959 Richard Briars. 85 00:06:42.959 --> 00:06:46.079 The shortlist for Ace for... 86 00:06:46.139 --> 00:06:50.220 Sophie Eldred and an actress called Cassie Stewart. 87 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:50.819 Yes. 88 00:06:50.819 --> 00:06:57.660 And the shortlist for Ray was Sarah Griffiths and George Slade. 89 00:06:58.019 --> 00:07:04.560 And Lynn Gardner was could be either. 90 00:07:04.620 --> 00:07:06.420 But she was cast as Ray. 91 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:07.680 Not Sarah Griffiths at first. 92 00:07:07.740 --> 00:07:19.319 And famously, while she was practising on her scooter, she fell and broke her leg and she wasn't going to be recovered in time. was nowhere near the mechanics department at the time. 93 00:07:19.379 --> 00:07:25.139 But yeah, so she contacted the Doctor Who Production office who wrote back to her saying, look, you know, we're really sorry to hear that. 94 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:26.399 We understand entirely. 95 00:07:26.459 --> 00:07:27.540 You will be paid in full. 96 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:30.540 Oh, read had her own leathers, do you? 97 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:38.639 So they paid Lingardner in full for the 3 episodes and she will be heard next week in Dragonfire as the Tanoy voice. 98 00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:39.420 Nice world. 99 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:41.639 So there's a career, say, for you. 100 00:07:41.699 --> 00:07:44.100 But yeah, so they called in Sarah Griffiths instead. 101 00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:47.339 Who is who is just lovely. 102 00:07:47.399 --> 00:07:49.560 You know, I mean, she's gorgeous. 103 00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:51.180 She looks the part. 104 00:07:51.240 --> 00:07:52.620 Utterly believable. 105 00:07:52.680 --> 00:08:09.000 And I, there's a scene in there which I think is very important for establishing Silv's character, where Billy Ray's love interest is singing to Delta, and Ray is utterly heartbroken and she goes to walk away and the doctor asks her to dance because he doesn't know what else to do. 106 00:08:09.060 --> 00:08:10.860 And she's just like, yes, thank you. 107 00:08:10.920 --> 00:08:11.579 I'd love to. 108 00:08:11.639 --> 00:08:14.100 And he has no idea what he seems to have, no idea what she's doing. 109 00:08:14.160 --> 00:08:15.000 He's leading. 110 00:08:15.060 --> 00:08:17.100 He even, I don't think he even gets to ask. 111 00:08:17.160 --> 00:08:19.019 He goes to ask you a question. 112 00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:20.100 I wonder if you would. 113 00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:21.480 I'd love to. 114 00:08:21.540 --> 00:08:26.339 And then there's that really quite lovely scene where he's consoling her. 115 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:30.779 Do you know, this is somewhere that the show has never, ever gone before. 116 00:08:30.839 --> 00:08:31.439 Niceness. 117 00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:32.039 Yeah. 118 00:08:32.100 --> 00:08:32.940 Well, yeah. 119 00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:34.440 So you've got this production. 120 00:08:34.500 --> 00:08:35.820 It's all on location. 121 00:08:35.879 --> 00:08:37.799 So there's no space corridors. 122 00:08:37.860 --> 00:08:39.299 We're not on the planet Zog. 123 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:40.500 Everything's on location. 124 00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:41.340 Everything. 125 00:08:41.399 --> 00:08:44.759 They even built the interior of the bus in one of the chalet corridors. 126 00:08:44.820 --> 00:08:45.779 Do you know that was full of rats? 127 00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:46.980 Yes, yeah. 128 00:08:47.100 --> 00:08:59.340 Some of the production crew stayed there and very quickly didn't because it was a it was a real wing of a holiday camp. had been used to shoot parts of Heidi High, who starring Philip Maddock's own daughter, Dane Ruth Maddock. 129 00:08:59.399 --> 00:09:00.240 Do you remember? 130 00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:01.320 Did you ever see... 131 00:09:01.379 --> 00:09:02.100 I did see it, yeah. 132 00:09:02.460 --> 00:09:03.059 It's really funny. 133 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:05.820 It's the same people who wrote, are you being served? 134 00:09:05.820 --> 00:09:09.059 and it ain't half hot, mum, and all those other lovely things. 135 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:09.899 Dad's army. 136 00:09:09.960 --> 00:09:10.500 Probably. 137 00:09:10.559 --> 00:09:14.100 The casting crew referred to Delta and the Bannerman as Heidi Who. 138 00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:16.019 Oh, that's right. 139 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:19.440 And previously, Time in the Rani was the two, was the 2 Ranis. 140 00:09:19.500 --> 00:09:23.879 But this was filmed in a disused part of a holiday camp. 141 00:09:23.940 --> 00:09:25.980 So it was this holiday camp with 3 areas. 142 00:09:26.039 --> 00:09:28.740 This was called the yellow camp, and you'll notice all the walls are yellow. 143 00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:33.840 But so this place was built in the early 60s, which was deemed close enough architecturally. 144 00:09:33.899 --> 00:09:39.960 And the other 2 camps in the area had been modernised, and this one was due to be modernised. 145 00:09:40.019 --> 00:09:41.100 Gary Downey found out about it. 146 00:09:41.159 --> 00:09:46.259 And they said, oh, we'd love to have Doctor Who, and they were incredibly helpful and accommodating. 147 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:53.460 The only things that change were, There were some scripted scenes on roundabout, like one of the spinning merry-go-round things. 148 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:55.559 That, what Mellon Burton were meant to be tied to. 149 00:09:55.620 --> 00:10:03.360 And unfortunately, on the day, it was being used by real campers and the management were like, look, sorry, you know, we have given you a whole wing. 150 00:10:03.419 --> 00:10:04.019 We can't really. 151 00:10:04.080 --> 00:10:04.860 Oh, no, no, it's fine. 152 00:10:04.919 --> 00:10:05.759 We'll just tie them over here. 153 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:11.159 I thought you were going to say it was just the congealed rats. the mechanism. 154 00:10:11.220 --> 00:10:16.799 But yeah, they put, they put a giant tunnel on the site, which is where they filmed the entire spaceship. 155 00:10:17.399 --> 00:10:21.960 Yeah. bloody dawn. 156 00:10:22.019 --> 00:10:23.340 Yeah, Ken... 157 00:10:23.340 --> 00:10:25.559 I feel so... 158 00:10:25.620 --> 00:10:28.379 He's the most meta thing to ever happen to Doctor Who. 159 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:29.820 It's amazing. 160 00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:32.279 And it's fantastic. calculated to... 161 00:10:32.279 --> 00:10:33.000 It's bizarre. 162 00:10:33.059 --> 00:10:35.460 Well, it's calculated to make the Doctor Who Monster book. 163 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:39.899 People hate it because Doctor Who is serious science fiction and doesn't have light entertainment. 164 00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:40.980 People like Ken Dodd. 165 00:10:41.039 --> 00:10:41.879 You know what they're doing? 166 00:10:41.940 --> 00:10:50.340 They're saying, oh, you think silver, you're criticising silver, all of these things, will give you Doddie, who's the meta silver on every level? 167 00:10:50.460 --> 00:10:58.679 It's kind of sad in a way, because in the script, he is scripted as like a cross between a game show host and a lizard. 168 00:11:00.779 --> 00:11:04.200 And the thing was, he came up to Sylvester. 169 00:11:04.259 --> 00:11:09.000 After rehearsal on locationing, just kind of said, you know, am I, is this okay? 170 00:11:09.059 --> 00:11:14.940 Like, because I know the character's meant to be very large, but I don't want to go too over the top and end up spoiling it. 171 00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:18.000 He had done dramatic performances, and he's actually quite good. 172 00:11:18.059 --> 00:11:22.139 He puts in fake teeth, so he looks normal and greases his hair back. true. 173 00:11:22.200 --> 00:11:27.539 And the problem is, Sylvester, I think, quite rightly thought, you know, this man is a legend is someone I really respect. 174 00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:28.860 I can't tell him how to act. 175 00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:29.820 That's up to the director. 176 00:11:29.940 --> 00:11:34.080 And so still said, oh, look, you know, I think it's fine, but go have a word with the director. 177 00:11:34.200 --> 00:11:40.679 Chris Klough, it seems kind of had the same opinion and just said, oh, no, no, darling, follow your instincts. 178 00:11:40.740 --> 00:11:46.259 And Silv was in the box during Dodd's death scene. 179 00:11:46.620 --> 00:11:49.559 When I say the box, I mean, the outside broadcast van where they're monitoring everything. 180 00:11:49.980 --> 00:11:57.480 And it was originally longer and he's just sitting there and Clough turns to JNT and says, oh, yeah, he's not very good. 181 00:11:57.539 --> 00:11:58.620 Don't worry, we'll cut it down. 182 00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:02.220 And, you know, of course, Silv, he's quite mild manner. 183 00:12:02.279 --> 00:12:05.940 He doesn't say anything, but he just kind of thought, no, no, get out there and tell him. wants to do good. 184 00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:07.919 And the thing is, I think... 185 00:12:07.919 --> 00:12:13.679 They do cut him down a fair bit, and I think the brevity helps make the character work. 186 00:12:13.740 --> 00:12:21.000 And there's a few times where the mask slips like when Mel says, oh, we're meant to be going on a spaceship, not an old bus. 187 00:12:21.059 --> 00:12:24.480 Oh, bus. is a very expensive conversion. 188 00:12:24.539 --> 00:12:34.620 You know, he kind of loses the chippiness there and when Murray hits it, you know, you can tell his theatrical side is more of a, is more of an act than... 189 00:12:35.580 --> 00:12:38.399 Yeah, there is an element of subtlety to the character. 190 00:12:38.519 --> 00:12:44.220 You know who was 1st who the part was written for and 1st cast, but he wasn't available. 191 00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:50.759 We've touched on him and he would appreciate the gesture just very recently in our colin audios, Christopher Biggins. 192 00:12:50.820 --> 00:12:53.220 Oh, yes. written for Christopher Biggins. 193 00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:55.139 And do you know why he turned it down? 194 00:12:56.580 --> 00:12:59.700 Yeah, it's too small a part and I want to play a villain. 195 00:12:59.759 --> 00:13:01.919 That's why he turned it down. 196 00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:02.580 That kind of game. 197 00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:03.659 I'm Nero. 198 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:06.419 Yeah. 199 00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:09.779 Clav Dives, and he was too. 200 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:12.120 He's fabulous as Banto, Zane. 201 00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:12.779 Yeah, yeah. 202 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:16.500 So we can forgive him for being a prat for this one. 203 00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:17.759 You know how the 2nd one was? 204 00:13:17.820 --> 00:13:20.039 He's actually one of my favourite British comedians. 205 00:13:20.100 --> 00:13:21.240 Bob Monkhouse. 206 00:13:21.299 --> 00:13:22.379 Does anyone know who he is? 207 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:30.299 He's horribly dead, although he does make a lovely appearance in Toast of London with Matt Berry as someone faking him. 208 00:13:30.360 --> 00:13:35.639 He was he was just one of those really, but he was had a very high IQ, really witty raconteurs. 209 00:13:35.700 --> 00:13:41.759 He did the golden shot and six, he was one of those 60s guys like Bruce Forsyth or Eric Morkam, but smarter and clever. 210 00:13:41.820 --> 00:13:43.740 But Dottie actually surpassed them all. 211 00:13:43.799 --> 00:13:51.840 Ken Dodd was in the Guinness book of World Records for years for being able to keep a joke pattern going for the longest one line of jokes. 212 00:13:51.899 --> 00:13:54.059 He did it for almost 4 days. 213 00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:55.620 I'm really not kidding. 214 00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:56.279 Look it up. 215 00:13:56.340 --> 00:13:58.440 So how does that work? 216 00:13:58.500 --> 00:14:04.980 Does he just keep sort of starts telling the joke and then just keeps interrupting himself until he gets to the punchline 4 days later. 217 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:06.480 I think he's taking Nathan's pills. 218 00:14:06.539 --> 00:14:07.679 I think that might be. 219 00:14:07.740 --> 00:14:09.840 It's like a wide mouth frog joke. 220 00:14:09.960 --> 00:14:12.299 He just, you know, comes to another animal. 221 00:14:12.299 --> 00:14:13.620 I've heard him do it on just a minute. 222 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:18.720 I've heard him do it on just a minute just this year, which is, I think, it's in its 748th season. 223 00:14:18.779 --> 00:14:20.340 It's actually older than me. 224 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:22.259 The radio series. 225 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:25.200 Still hosted by friend of the podcast, Nicholas Parsons. 226 00:14:25.259 --> 00:14:26.039 We own him. 227 00:14:26.100 --> 00:14:27.600 Yeah, we own him. 228 00:14:27.659 --> 00:14:31.259 But Dottie just did a whole minute of just one liners. 229 00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:35.940 They're just silly jokes, but of course he's been in the business since before time. 230 00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:37.259 Yes, that's right. 231 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:41.580 He's kind of like Betty White was born before sliced bread. 232 00:14:42.059 --> 00:14:43.860 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 233 00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:46.139 So sliced bread is the best thing since Betty White. 234 00:14:46.679 --> 00:14:50.519 Oh my god, my bladder just leaked. 235 00:14:50.580 --> 00:14:52.740 We have had a lot of tea. 236 00:14:52.980 --> 00:14:56.519 But I think Dodd's death scene... 237 00:14:57.179 --> 00:15:01.860 I think the Tollmaster's death scene. 238 00:15:01.860 --> 00:15:03.480 It is awful. 239 00:15:03.539 --> 00:15:11.879 And it kind of cements the 2 halves of the show because we had this happy holiday romp, almost a beach blanket bingo movie. 240 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:15.840 And then we have Don Henderson coming in and smashing the whole thing up. 241 00:15:15.899 --> 00:15:17.700 Oh, Don Henderson. 242 00:15:17.820 --> 00:15:22.679 You know the rebels will take over if you slutty fast around the place like you're doing. 243 00:15:22.740 --> 00:15:26.220 Do you remember that line in Star Wars when he says you keep it up like this. 244 00:15:26.279 --> 00:15:28.259 The rebels are going to sort youse out. 245 00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:31.740 And he goes off and has a chip buddy in a canalaga. 246 00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:33.120 He's in Star Wars. 247 00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:33.720 Yes, he is. 248 00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:34.500 Gar Rock, yeah. 249 00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:37.139 Yeah, he's in a new hope around around the table. 250 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:39.360 He's not the guy who gets choked by Vader, but he is in that scene. 251 00:15:39.419 --> 00:15:41.279 He would have been up for it too. 252 00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:46.019 He was the Michael Hutchins of Doctor Who. 253 00:15:46.019 --> 00:15:49.019 The cannibalistic ham. 254 00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:58.139 I think that I think that he is a very kind of low rent villain, not in the sense of giving a bad performance. 255 00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:00.299 No, he took this very seriously. 256 00:16:00.419 --> 00:16:04.980 He was always writing notes to everyone. them to play as well as him. 257 00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:06.840 He plays it Superstar. 258 00:16:06.899 --> 00:16:09.840 He loved Doctor Who, too. really wanted to do this for a long time. 259 00:16:09.899 --> 00:16:14.220 But this is a conception of science fiction that if you're a giant fan of earth shock. 260 00:16:14.279 --> 00:16:20.220 You're going to hate it because instead of being about various space races, You love Earth Shop. a huge fan. 261 00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:22.200 Second only to Warriors of the Deep. 262 00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:31.440 You know, the universe is populated by fleets of spaceships, you know, run by Santarans and Daleks, and that it's all very gone and all very serious. 263 00:16:31.500 --> 00:16:41.279 And now we have a sort of hitchhikers guide conception of what the universe is like with toll booths and special offers and holiday trips. 264 00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:46.500 And the everyday and the inane grown up with the meta and the mega. gorgeous. 265 00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:53.879 And so you've got these sort of silly aliens that in the script, they're described as looking like artichokes, actually, in the novelisation. 266 00:16:53.940 --> 00:16:55.559 That's like the Galaxy Quest. 267 00:16:56.519 --> 00:16:58.320 It's wonderful. 268 00:16:58.379 --> 00:17:02.940 I mean, it is just a terrific new fresh, exciting conception of what science fiction is. 269 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:04.380 It's for the people at home. 270 00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:09.299 It's not for, it's not Babylon fine. for people who like jokes. 271 00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:10.740 That's exactly right. 272 00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:17.220 And then you go to a real place in the recent past, in the lifetime of the older people watching at home. 273 00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:22.980 Something that's really something that's that's really sort of recognisable. 274 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:29.640 I think it's the 1st time that Doctor Who has gone back in time, such a short distance. 275 00:17:29.700 --> 00:17:32.220 Yeah, I mean, the, I was thinking about it last night. 276 00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:35.220 The only other one that kind of qualifies would be Morden undead. 277 00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:41.819 And even then, the journey back in time is so close that it might as, yeah, it might as well be the current day. 278 00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:44.039 So this is 28 years. 279 00:17:44.099 --> 00:17:51.180 The previous record was about 38 years for the abominable snowmen. 280 00:17:51.180 --> 00:17:53.400 Yeah, so that's the 30s, isn't it? 281 00:17:53.460 --> 00:17:54.180 Yeah, yeah. 282 00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:58.019 So it's the 1st time we've gone back in time sort of to post-war Britain. 283 00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:01.079 So it's a completely new territory for the show. 284 00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:04.740 And then the show is set in a sort of working class environment. 285 00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:10.619 It's not set in a space station or a research centre or near a cyclotron. 286 00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:15.839 You can actually see Pertwe's curling tongs just riding. 287 00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:20.279 Did you know that was part of McCoy's pitch to Cart Mall and then to JNT? 288 00:18:20.339 --> 00:18:22.559 He said, I want to be the 1st working class doctor. 289 00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:27.420 Yeah, I'm, I totally, totally get it. 290 00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:28.440 Yeah, it's wonderful. 291 00:18:28.500 --> 00:18:44.039 And it picks up on something that we mentioned in the Colin retrospective, and throughout Colin's era as well, part of what was really lost in that era was a lack of stories set on recognisable either modern day or in this case recent past earth. 292 00:18:44.220 --> 00:18:46.200 You've got one episode. 293 00:18:46.259 --> 00:18:48.119 You've got Attack of the Sidemen episode one. 294 00:18:48.180 --> 00:18:49.319 Yeah, that's it. 295 00:18:49.380 --> 00:19:00.900 Whereas you might argue that other than time in the Rani, although we've touched on that, it is very much of the present, if you like, is a metaphor, but Paradise Towers could easily just be anywhere, you know, after London. 296 00:19:01.019 --> 00:19:07.680 Yeah, but again, it's not in a world of space stations and spaceships, which is what the universe has been like up till now. 297 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:14.160 It's more joyful and children can play it because you can imagine that the school bus now actually is the never really shuffle. 298 00:19:14.220 --> 00:19:15.000 Yeah, yeah. 299 00:19:15.059 --> 00:19:17.339 And what isn't the buster stroke of genius for that exact reason? 300 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:21.299 It was this unwanted BBC Enterpol. 301 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:24.420 BBC bought it for this and you're going to see it again in Greatest Show of the Garlic scene. 302 00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:30.839 Yeah, yeah. and bought it for £3000 And John Nathan Turner's boss says, oh, God, you're mad. 303 00:19:30.900 --> 00:19:34.019 Well, bought it for £3000 used in this story, used in that story. 304 00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:38.640 She ended up at Doctor Who exhibition, cheaper than a prop, actually semifunctional. 305 00:19:38.700 --> 00:19:42.960 And it, rather than, you know, building a spaceship. 306 00:19:43.019 --> 00:19:44.700 It makes it recognisable. 307 00:19:44.700 --> 00:19:46.259 And then we're told, actually, it's a spaceship. 308 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:47.460 We put a funky engine in the back. 309 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:48.420 What was it? 310 00:19:49.740 --> 00:19:50.700 Yes, exactly. right. 311 00:19:50.759 --> 00:19:51.599 Yeah, exactly right. 312 00:19:51.660 --> 00:19:53.220 This is the doctor who does it. 313 00:19:53.220 --> 00:19:53.700 It's best. 314 00:19:53.819 --> 00:20:02.880 And for some, and also for some reason, there's that bit where the doctor shows Burton and Ray inside the TARDIS to prove his credentials and we hated that in the Davidson era. hated it, yes. 315 00:20:02.940 --> 00:20:04.559 But here it's so lovely and sweet. 316 00:20:04.859 --> 00:20:11.460 And he comes out energised and excited, Burton is, I think, my favourite. 317 00:20:11.460 --> 00:20:12.000 It's so wonderful. 318 00:20:12.059 --> 00:20:18.180 That line about the happy hot Hearts holiday, plus Bolton is one of the funniest things. 319 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:19.140 He's lovely. 320 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:28.140 There's a lot of, you know, we're going to, we're going to touch on Arthurian legends in another story further on, but this actually has got quite a bit of, you know, being a well story. 321 00:20:28.200 --> 00:20:29.579 It's really touching on a lot. 322 00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:37.140 It also has one of my favourite people of all time, you know, it's stubby K. Yeah, I'm not sure that that plot is particularly successful. 323 00:20:37.259 --> 00:20:38.460 It was grafted on. 324 00:20:38.519 --> 00:20:41.940 Kartmore was told to or was told we need more humour. 325 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:43.500 This came from Jonathan Powell. 326 00:20:43.559 --> 00:20:45.180 So it was added onto the cold script. 327 00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:46.920 But don't forget, Stubby, okay. 328 00:20:46.980 --> 00:20:54.240 I grew up with watching guys and dolls, and if you've never seen it, Have you ever seen the thing and he sings the sit down, you rock on the boat song? 329 00:20:54.299 --> 00:20:56.940 is a genius of comedy timing? 330 00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:03.480 And haven't you noticed if you want to play these sorts of parts, get a tried and true comedian because they won't stick it? 331 00:21:03.539 --> 00:21:04.859 Yeah, he plays it straight. 332 00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:07.259 Where in Wales, in England. 333 00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:07.500 Yeah. 334 00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:10.140 And there's something just terribly sweet about it too. 335 00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:19.799 You know, they're like they're agents of the American government, but they're just sort of in a tent, you know. imagine the only thing that could have made it better if they'd cast Morecambe and wine. 336 00:21:20.940 --> 00:21:23.279 Who was still alive, probably? 337 00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:30.420 The strange thing is, though, these 2 who do end up being a smaller part of the plot than Nintended. 338 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:38.160 You know, they were kind of grafted on, but then Malcolm Cole and Andrew Cartmel went for it and they're like, we're going to give these guys a proper story arc. 339 00:21:38.220 --> 00:21:41.099 So originally the story was set in 1957, launch of Spupnik. 340 00:21:41.220 --> 00:21:45.779 And the idea was the satellite there tracking is an American satellite. 341 00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:46.559 Yes. 342 00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:49.920 And the reason we've never heard about it is the bus crashes into it. 343 00:21:50.099 --> 00:21:53.099 And which, of course, is why it looks like Sputnik. 344 00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:53.400 Yeah. 345 00:21:53.400 --> 00:22:01.380 And so the whole, their kind of whole subplot is we've got to find this thing because we're actually not working in the UK out of choice. 346 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:05.940 You know, this is our last chance to make good and we can actually go home and work in America. 347 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:07.200 And that was their through line. 348 00:22:07.259 --> 00:22:08.579 Do you know why it was moved up? 349 00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:09.720 moved up 2 years? 350 00:22:09.779 --> 00:22:14.220 Was it the development of rock and roll and the rock and roll was more accepted by 1959? 351 00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:17.220 I wish it was that pure and interesting. 352 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:26.940 It was because JNT and Keth McCulloch agreed that they could squeeze in more known songs that McCulloch could... 353 00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:28.259 He's in the band. 354 00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:32.460 You can watch him on stage with the pony turtle, swishing around. 355 00:22:32.519 --> 00:22:33.299 There still flies on him. 356 00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:40.259 I don't think it worked for a second. that they were going to release a Christmas album of this soundtrack. 357 00:22:40.319 --> 00:22:41.460 Can you imagine? 358 00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:44.519 It's a great way to get that inheritance early, isn't it? 359 00:22:44.579 --> 00:22:47.579 Just sit in front of your grandmother in front of that for an hour and watch what happens. 360 00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:50.339 And do think, though, that the music is really great. 361 00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:52.079 Oh, I knew you were going to like it. 362 00:22:52.140 --> 00:22:53.819 Devil's Gallop. 363 00:22:53.880 --> 00:22:56.519 Yes, it's Dick Barton, special agent. 364 00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:00.240 Brendan is actually Timey Wimey and was around in 1946. 365 00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:01.920 Why is it on radio four? 366 00:23:01.980 --> 00:23:06.539 But of course, I knew it when this played out as that bit from Monty Python. 367 00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:08.039 Whenever a joke thing happens. 368 00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:12.599 It really is counterintuitive to any of the pathos they're trying to build though, isn't it? 369 00:23:12.660 --> 00:23:13.740 I love it. 370 00:23:13.799 --> 00:23:14.279 I think it works. 371 00:23:14.339 --> 00:23:16.079 It just creates such a light atmosphere. 372 00:23:16.140 --> 00:23:17.819 I'm in the music at the dance as well. 373 00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:22.859 You know, like having recognisable songs, which we've done... when? 374 00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:24.180 But when have we ever done that? 375 00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:26.339 Yeah, um... 376 00:23:26.339 --> 00:23:27.299 The Last Chance Saloon. 377 00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:32.400 The Honourable Aubrey Waits, you know, like when did we last have popular music on the show? 378 00:23:32.460 --> 00:23:34.440 And God, you know, who would you say? 379 00:23:34.440 --> 00:23:37.079 Are you playing in Inferno in the Inferno Disco? 380 00:23:37.140 --> 00:23:38.579 I don't know, actually. 381 00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:39.539 Probably more library music. 382 00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:40.440 Yeah. 383 00:23:40.500 --> 00:23:42.059 Swinging, wasn't it? 384 00:23:42.119 --> 00:23:45.180 We got old Duffer and 2 waitresses because the hottest spot in town. 385 00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:46.619 Much later. 386 00:23:46.619 --> 00:23:47.759 I think that was probably in Wales too. 387 00:23:47.880 --> 00:23:50.039 Paperback writer in Evil of the Dalek. 388 00:23:50.099 --> 00:23:50.819 Yeah, that's true. 389 00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:54.839 Who would use 3 guitars mood for 115 episodes? 390 00:23:54.900 --> 00:23:55.500 I ask you. 391 00:23:55.559 --> 00:23:56.819 No one, I know. 392 00:23:56.880 --> 00:23:59.039 But yeah, I enjoy the music here. 393 00:23:59.099 --> 00:24:02.099 And the reason it's all done by Kef on a synthesiser is cheap. 394 00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:12.180 Yeah, it was, it was, okay, it was cheaper to pay Kev to re-record the songs and then pay the license for a re-recording than it was to pay for the original recording. 395 00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:15.299 Now, things have actually changed now with music licensing. 396 00:24:15.539 --> 00:24:20.700 And in general, not, there are specific cases, but in general, music licensing has become cheaper. 397 00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:21.960 They've woken up to that. 398 00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:30.119 But also, like it's a sort of a crummy 1950s rock and roll night at a holiday. 399 00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:31.799 With Mary Island. 400 00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:34.559 With the mechanic, the weed vocal. 401 00:24:34.619 --> 00:24:35.039 Yeah. 402 00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:37.140 And they all look like Sicorax on stage. 403 00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:39.660 Especially that Kef McCullough. 404 00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:43.019 No, I think that's really wonderful. 405 00:24:43.079 --> 00:24:49.559 The one thing that I think is totally horribly wrong. is steady yourselves. 406 00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:53.700 Obviously, the bus exploding at the end of episode two. 407 00:24:53.940 --> 00:24:57.839 Okay, I saw this as a whatever age, 1st to uni. 408 00:24:57.900 --> 00:24:59.220 I thought, no, that's wrong. 409 00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:01.079 Yeah, it's cruel. 410 00:25:01.140 --> 00:25:03.599 It's especially wrong because it's not really mentioned again. 411 00:25:03.660 --> 00:25:06.420 And that's unfortunate because it was mentioned again in the script. 412 00:25:06.839 --> 00:25:12.720 But they had to cut stuff out and they kind of went, well, that's surplus to requirement. 413 00:25:12.779 --> 00:25:17.640 It's like, okay, well maybe if the bus exploding is surplus to requirement, maybe just let them get away. 414 00:25:17.700 --> 00:25:19.500 Yeah, it makes no difference to the plot. 415 00:25:19.559 --> 00:25:23.339 I mean, they're not doing it to get rid of them so we don't have to worry about them anymore. 416 00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:24.059 They escape. 417 00:25:24.119 --> 00:25:25.079 What if they escape? 418 00:25:25.140 --> 00:25:26.460 It's really... 419 00:25:26.460 --> 00:25:33.240 Yeah, it's just to tell you that Gavrock's evil in case you missed episode Wamori blew up a whole bunch of green rubber people. 420 00:25:33.299 --> 00:25:35.039 Yeah, and shot Ken Dawn. 421 00:25:35.099 --> 00:25:36.180 Like what do you want? 422 00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:37.200 He's definitely evil. 423 00:25:37.259 --> 00:25:43.019 Didn't you love that the Shimmer and people were actually those little plastic soldiers from Toy Story? 424 00:25:43.079 --> 00:25:44.160 Yes, it's amazing. 425 00:25:44.220 --> 00:25:47.099 John Nathan Turner and Andrew Cartwell, though, were really annoyed. 426 00:25:47.160 --> 00:25:52.859 Because the script calls for them to be half reptilian, half insectoid with piercing green eyes. 427 00:25:52.859 --> 00:26:02.220 And the makeup artist kind of looked at the budget and went, okay, I can give you literally this mask made out of a broken draconian. 428 00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:04.319 That's what it was. 429 00:26:04.380 --> 00:26:05.579 And you know what? 430 00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:11.519 As a kid, I was intrigued by the fact that the women were so beautiful and the men were so hideous by human ideas. 431 00:26:11.579 --> 00:26:13.680 Because it's because they're drones. 432 00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:16.019 Yeah, exactly Yeah, and they're bees. 433 00:26:16.079 --> 00:26:18.539 Can we get onto the troubling matter of Billy? 434 00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:20.880 Yes, I'm curious to hear what you think of this. 435 00:26:20.940 --> 00:26:21.960 What do you think, Nathan? 436 00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:26.099 I live tweeted when we were live tweeting. 437 00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:36.539 And this is part of the Genesis, I think, of Doctor Who facts, I live tweeted that Billy discovered later to his horror that male shimmerans have no external genitalia. 438 00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:38.640 I don't know that Billy Herd either. 439 00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:42.420 I think Billy is a walking talking plastic bottom. 440 00:26:42.660 --> 00:26:44.400 We can see that. 441 00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:50.039 Have you noticed how quickly he falls for her after having absolutely no interest in Ray? 442 00:26:50.099 --> 00:26:52.140 And come on, it's it's the 50s. 443 00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:53.099 It's in Wales. 444 00:26:53.160 --> 00:26:54.779 There ain't a lot of bint about. 445 00:26:54.839 --> 00:26:57.779 If he was a strident heterosexual lad. 446 00:26:57.960 --> 00:27:03.299 No, I'm quite serious about this, he probably would have been on for Ray even for a quickie, but there is no attention at all. 447 00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:05.460 To me, he's ostensibly queer. 448 00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:08.759 Just like every man ace has ever fallen for in the history. 449 00:27:08.819 --> 00:27:09.299 Everything. 450 00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:12.720 There's a whole lot of queer theory in this. in these 3 years. 451 00:27:12.779 --> 00:27:15.480 But almost instantly. 452 00:27:15.480 --> 00:27:22.440 Just as bees do, and insects do with pheromones and with ultrasonic signals. 453 00:27:22.500 --> 00:27:26.039 And of course, we've seen her little, you know, sequence behind the ears. 454 00:27:26.099 --> 00:27:31.740 She just puts a little something behind her ears to attract men, as Liz Patterson used to say, Joan Collins did it with her ankles. 455 00:27:31.799 --> 00:27:33.839 She does it with sequence. 456 00:27:33.900 --> 00:27:38.819 Billy is inculcated into... 457 00:27:38.819 --> 00:27:39.599 Because they need a male. 458 00:27:39.660 --> 00:27:41.099 They need a male. 459 00:27:41.099 --> 00:27:44.039 Because she's the queen B. No, he wasn't. yeah he wasn't even queer. 460 00:27:44.099 --> 00:27:47.940 He is so married to the task far and beyond. 461 00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:51.839 No, no, there is some external influence at play ferments. 462 00:27:51.900 --> 00:27:57.299 And let's just stop and think, what do most female insects or queens of hives do with their males? 463 00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:00.839 Ah, so she's going to bite his head off after coin. 464 00:28:00.900 --> 00:28:12.480 Well, they'll often also ingest their genitalia and feed off that as an added source of protein and DNA and hormones as they as they continue with their pregnancy cycle. 465 00:28:12.599 --> 00:28:16.980 Or yes, they bite their heads off. certain other things they do as well. 466 00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:21.779 No, he is an unwilling member of this Frisson. 467 00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:24.420 And I think Ray has every reason to be worried. 468 00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:29.759 God, I thought the most disturbing thing about this story was Mel's incomprehensible racism at a green baby. 469 00:28:29.819 --> 00:28:32.819 Because she sees a green baby and her 1st reaction is to scream. 470 00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:37.079 For God's sake, woman, you've encountered phallic yonic plant people. 471 00:28:37.859 --> 00:28:39.900 She's a big racist. 472 00:28:39.960 --> 00:28:42.359 I think she has womb terror. 473 00:28:43.079 --> 00:28:45.539 Wibbly wobbly womb terror. 474 00:28:45.539 --> 00:28:46.859 Doctor Who and the womb terror. 475 00:28:46.980 --> 00:28:48.240 The terror of the womb. 476 00:28:48.299 --> 00:28:57.660 I didn't think that worked initially because you've got the green, slimy, animatronic baby and then in the next scene, it's an actual baby sort of haphazardly made up. 477 00:28:57.720 --> 00:29:00.180 And I kind of thought, oh, really? 478 00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:01.019 That's sort of... 479 00:29:01.019 --> 00:29:01.920 Vandral China. 480 00:29:01.980 --> 00:29:04.140 That's right. a little bit crummy. 481 00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:07.380 And I can understand people who are not sold on that. 482 00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:09.660 But they don't know where she gets the jumper outfits. 483 00:29:09.720 --> 00:29:12.720 Like, are they just like compressible IKEA phone mattresses? 484 00:29:12.779 --> 00:29:15.839 Where does Billy Getty's gorgeous little they exude them. 485 00:29:15.900 --> 00:29:18.119 So that is actually part of his flesh. 486 00:29:18.180 --> 00:29:20.519 Well, yeah, it grows with the princess. 487 00:29:20.579 --> 00:29:21.359 So it must be. 488 00:29:21.420 --> 00:29:22.380 So you never heard. 489 00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:23.819 I don't know how they had children. 490 00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:25.559 Yeah, really. 491 00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:26.099 No. 492 00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:32.759 So, so, you know, they're bees and and so they have pupa stages and all of that sort of thing. 493 00:29:32.819 --> 00:29:34.619 They have drones and queens and stuff. 494 00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:35.700 I think that's sort of work. 495 00:29:35.700 --> 00:29:38.160 She does look like a young honour blackman or something. 496 00:29:38.220 --> 00:29:39.359 So she probably is going to eat him. 497 00:29:39.420 --> 00:29:40.859 Well, not only that. 498 00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:43.740 She was also an auditionee. 499 00:29:43.740 --> 00:29:47.339 Don't. to play Romana. 500 00:29:47.400 --> 00:29:49.619 Well, actually, that could have been quite interesting. 501 00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:52.259 She does seem a fair bit older than Billy. 502 00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:53.579 Is that just me? 503 00:29:53.640 --> 00:29:55.079 I always thought that she seemed dumb. 504 00:29:55.619 --> 00:29:58.079 She's older than me. 505 00:29:58.079 --> 00:29:59.039 Maybe a good 10 years, yeah. 506 00:29:59.099 --> 00:30:00.359 Everyone looks young to me. 507 00:30:00.420 --> 00:30:03.119 She does have that certain that certain cast, doesn't she? 508 00:30:03.180 --> 00:30:05.099 Belinda Mayne. 509 00:30:05.160 --> 00:30:07.980 I was thinking Lenny Maine, and I knew that was wrong. 510 00:30:08.220 --> 00:30:11.460 Because we're all excited to have seen Alpha Centauri last week as we record. 511 00:30:14.519 --> 00:30:15.240 Oh dear. 512 00:30:15.299 --> 00:30:21.000 Yeah, I mean, to be honest, Richard, I'd never I'd never considered that and it is rather disturbing. 513 00:30:21.059 --> 00:30:38.339 What I kind of saw when I watched it recently is, of course, it's 1959, we're still in an era where, I mean, God, even now we're still in that era, unfortunately, where a single mother is looked down on. 514 00:30:38.460 --> 00:30:44.819 And Billy's 1st reaction when he sees that Delta has a baby and no husband is to protect them. 515 00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:47.460 I found that to be a very noble thing. 516 00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:49.200 But he even goes into their cabin. 517 00:30:49.259 --> 00:30:52.680 That's a sacking offence at Butlin's or anywhere else. 518 00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:53.880 Yeah, of course. 519 00:30:53.940 --> 00:30:59.700 Being a single mother and being out about it was also not something that was permitted in holiday camps. 520 00:30:59.819 --> 00:31:09.779 But I think remember that Doctor Who isn't really strictly representing 1959 in England and it's just using kind of like the incidental features of it. 521 00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:11.279 And the show does this now. 522 00:31:11.339 --> 00:31:21.660 Like when it presents a past, it will often uh, try and present, and will it always tries to present the past as we conceive it in 2017 or whatever. 523 00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:23.400 I mean, that doesn't worry me so much. 524 00:31:23.460 --> 00:31:46.019 I do think that there is something a bit sweet about making, maybe not your kind of horrific love crafting version of a love story, but making the end of it centre around a love story again in a way that is bound to annoy the Doctor Who Monster Book Brigade. 525 00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:49.500 I do remember a fan, I can't think who it was. 526 00:31:49.559 --> 00:31:52.079 I'm probably going to traduce someone really horribly here. 527 00:31:52.140 --> 00:32:06.420 It's probably a listener who, um, had a video recording of episode one of the greatest show in the galaxy, which cut out the bit where Flower Child and Bellboy Kiss because you, you know, that's kissing. 528 00:32:07.559 --> 00:32:23.099 And, and, and so having a romance, and then just so audaciously having a vocal soundtrack for the 1st time since the Last Chance saloon, when we're singing Here's to the Future and Love is the answer. 529 00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:25.500 And I just, I really like that. 530 00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:27.539 I think it's so fresh and so different. 531 00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:29.700 I even really like that as a song. 532 00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:35.819 To be honest, I have listened to the tracks from this that are on the soundtrack albums. 533 00:32:35.880 --> 00:32:38.819 And I think they do a pretty good job. 534 00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:40.920 It's kind, it's kind of cheesy. 535 00:32:40.920 --> 00:32:41.640 Would you have bought it for Christmas? 536 00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:42.539 Yep. 537 00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:48.960 I think but do you remember the 25th anniversary album, which I've got it in their stuff and Dominic I might have listened to it. 538 00:32:49.019 --> 00:32:51.180 I love the 8891 overture. 539 00:32:51.660 --> 00:32:57.480 It's, it's, um, it starts off with the explosion in the 1st few bars of the theme. 540 00:32:57.539 --> 00:33:03.180 But then it's a medley of kef music, including music that was never used on the show for a reason. 541 00:33:03.299 --> 00:33:07.319 But it's just this incredible overture of his oeuvre. 542 00:33:07.380 --> 00:33:10.380 I love Kev McCulloch's music a lot more than other people. 543 00:33:10.440 --> 00:33:14.279 I think there's 2 scores where he really gets it wrong, which is Paradise Towers and Battlefield. 544 00:33:14.339 --> 00:33:16.079 Oh my goodness, yes. 545 00:33:16.140 --> 00:33:18.839 But I think his other 2 this season, he gets right. 546 00:33:18.900 --> 00:33:19.859 Remembrance, he gets right. 547 00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:21.180 Remembrance is good. 548 00:33:21.299 --> 00:33:21.599 Yeah. 549 00:33:21.660 --> 00:33:27.119 I like, I, you know, I like the rest of his stuff and even Paradise Towers and Battlefield. 550 00:33:27.180 --> 00:33:28.019 There are bits I like. 551 00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:42.359 There's just bits that are atonal, but my favourite bit and I didn't mention it 2 weeks ago, so I have to mention it now, is the bit from Time in the Rani episode 4 where they're putting the bangles around the brain and all the geniuses are escaping and it quotes the Doctor Who theme. 552 00:33:42.420 --> 00:33:44.160 It's this action music. 553 00:33:44.220 --> 00:33:47.940 It's this heroic thing of, yeah, where, you know, we're finally getting it right. 554 00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:51.119 And it feels like Sylvester's doctor is saying triumphantly. 555 00:33:51.180 --> 00:33:52.259 Yes, now I have arrived. 556 00:33:52.559 --> 00:34:02.940 Do you know, it's the 3rd story in a row as well, where the threat is defeated by everyone... 557 00:34:02.940 --> 00:34:07.380 Yes. different tasks to contribute to a plan. 558 00:34:07.380 --> 00:34:08.159 Yes. 559 00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:09.539 And they all work together. 560 00:34:09.659 --> 00:34:22.739 And I think that that's why I like Hawk and Y smaller here because they're part of like this big ensemble, that we like, and Garonwi's there and we're always... 561 00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:25.559 Yeah, but again, that's why they should not have been killed off. 562 00:34:25.619 --> 00:34:26.460 Yeah. 563 00:34:26.519 --> 00:34:32.579 That's, it, it felt like a little moment of say would ringing in just a, yeah, one of his oral threats. 564 00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:42.179 You know, I think it's one of those things that was in the original storyline, and because it's so inconsequential, it gets overlooked. 565 00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:53.460 Yeah, I think, unlike the say would principle of, if you, if you have a violent character, you must show them being violent, you must show the effect of that violence, I think it's, it's an oversight. 566 00:34:53.519 --> 00:35:05.820 But I also think that they learn from it because I can't readily come up with an example from now to the end of the series where they have a death that is so meaningless and nasty. 567 00:35:05.880 --> 00:35:11.400 Except for next story when all the people evacuating Ice World get horribly blown up. 568 00:35:11.519 --> 00:35:14.280 Even so, I think that... 569 00:35:14.340 --> 00:35:21.059 That actual act that actual act in itself is a natural progression of the plot. 570 00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:27.000 I think the reaction I think the reaction after it is worse than in this story. 571 00:35:27.059 --> 00:35:32.880 I don't think this is a natural, you know, outcome of the way this plot has been going. 572 00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:35.280 Yeah, no, no, not in Delta. 573 00:35:35.340 --> 00:35:37.500 I mean, I mean in Dragon Fire next week. 574 00:35:37.559 --> 00:35:39.599 I do tune in for that one, yeah. 575 00:35:39.659 --> 00:36:01.980 I do think the one positive of it is it gives Bonnie a really good acting moment where she's where she's facing Gavrock and she's saying you've killed them all, you know, and for, especially for Bonnie, who is a good actress and has been given like a character composed of 100% cardboard, thank you, Messes Cornell Day and topic. 576 00:36:02.340 --> 00:36:13.500 To have that scene with Don Henderson, who is an excellent actor, and of course, XYY man, um, you know, he played Bullman's Strangers, 3 different series. 577 00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:15.960 It's always playing the same tough guy part. 578 00:36:16.079 --> 00:36:16.860 Yeah, yeah. 579 00:36:16.920 --> 00:36:20.760 I think, I think that's, it gives Bonnie a really effective moment. 580 00:36:20.760 --> 00:36:35.099 And it leads to Silv's 1st really big convincing, in my opinion, confrontation with a villain where he comes to see Gavrock and tells him you're going to lose because all you believe in is death. 581 00:36:35.340 --> 00:36:39.179 And he just says, right, I'm taking these people and I'm leaving now. 582 00:36:39.239 --> 00:36:45.300 And I love that cliffhanger of, oh, I think I've got a little too far. 583 00:36:45.420 --> 00:36:46.679 It's the shot. 584 00:36:46.739 --> 00:36:58.679 It's the final point of view shot from where Don Henderson is where all 3 of them look up sort of rather guiltily and apprehensively and then we go to the closing sting. 585 00:36:58.739 --> 00:37:00.780 I think it's such a great cliffhanger. 586 00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:06.719 And there's a hilarious blooper from it where Silv walks towards the camera and says his line. 587 00:37:06.780 --> 00:37:11.460 But when he says, I think I've gone a little too far, he has actually missed his mark and he's behind the pillowcase. 588 00:37:11.460 --> 00:37:13.860 You just hear something behind the camera. 589 00:37:13.860 --> 00:37:15.480 Yeah, Sylvester, you have. 590 00:37:15.539 --> 00:37:16.619 You need to go one step back. 591 00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:21.239 Everyone fooling about. 592 00:37:21.300 --> 00:37:23.039 Did you know with these two? 593 00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:24.960 And the one following was Dragonfly. 594 00:37:25.019 --> 00:37:27.900 We touched on, they were made as one story for budget reasons. 595 00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:30.900 I think they did actually start that the previous year. 596 00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:35.820 So I know all of the production codes of every Doctor Who story, obviously. 597 00:37:35.880 --> 00:37:42.780 4 Q. steady on. 598 00:37:42.840 --> 00:37:43.679 That's how it's going to be. 599 00:37:43.739 --> 00:37:46.079 The power of Malcolm Croll. 600 00:37:46.860 --> 00:37:49.980 So the last 2 stories of last season. 601 00:37:50.039 --> 00:37:55.679 So the vervoids and what I'd like to call Time Incorporated these days. 602 00:37:55.739 --> 00:37:57.239 I think that's 7C. 603 00:37:57.300 --> 00:37:58.260 They have the same. 604 00:37:58.440 --> 00:37:59.820 Yeah, 7 C one and 7 C2. 605 00:37:59.940 --> 00:38:02.639 And so they do that from year on in. 606 00:38:02.699 --> 00:38:04.860 Star Wars robots. 607 00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:13.980 And so, you know, one of them is all on location and the other ones entirely in the studio and it makes for 16 parter. 608 00:38:14.039 --> 00:38:17.940 But having all location stuff is just terrific. 609 00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:20.219 It really gives us freshness and hope. 610 00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:22.559 You know, this was meant to be the serious script though. 611 00:38:22.619 --> 00:38:24.659 It was discussed with Ian Briggs. 612 00:38:25.260 --> 00:38:28.079 And Dragonfire was written as a comedy. 613 00:38:28.139 --> 00:38:33.000 Yeah, we'll talk more next week about what Dragon Fire was written as, but yeah, this was going to be the serious one. 614 00:38:33.059 --> 00:38:35.940 And just in the natural process of writing, this became more comedic. 615 00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:43.260 And Andrew Cartmel went back to Ian Briggs and said, look, I'm really sorry, we need to take the jokey stuff out and make it a bit more serious. 616 00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:47.099 And Briggs apparently said, for reasons we'll discuss next week. 617 00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:50.039 Actually, there's some elements I think aren't working and they are the jokey elements. 618 00:38:50.099 --> 00:38:51.119 Yeah, I'm happy to take those out. 619 00:38:51.179 --> 00:38:58.980 But it is a beginning of the sort of hitchhikers of vacation of Doctor Who's vision of the future and what science fiction is. 620 00:38:59.039 --> 00:39:02.699 And so next week we get a shopping centre in space. 621 00:39:02.820 --> 00:39:06.659 But this one also crosses over, you know, with Tollbooth everything. 622 00:39:06.780 --> 00:39:08.579 With Victoria Woods view of the future. 623 00:39:08.639 --> 00:39:14.099 Do you remember watching Hugh Lloyd on Victoria Wooders seen on TV in the 80s? 624 00:39:14.159 --> 00:39:14.699 No. 625 00:39:14.699 --> 00:39:17.400 Yeah, Garonwi was in that all the time. 626 00:39:17.519 --> 00:39:19.380 He was also in, I'm just trying to think what else he was. 627 00:39:19.500 --> 00:39:28.920 Yeah, he was in Hancock's half hour because Kenneth Williams didn't transfer over to the TV version of Hancock because Hancock, he just, I don't want to work with him anymore. 628 00:39:28.980 --> 00:39:30.780 I want to. 629 00:39:30.780 --> 00:39:37.380 And yeah, and then he had his own show called Hugh and I, but Hugh Lloyd was like, again, there's all these big names turning up. 630 00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:38.820 He's meant to be Merlin. 631 00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:39.480 Did you know that? 632 00:39:39.539 --> 00:39:41.400 That's the footnotes. 633 00:39:41.460 --> 00:39:46.320 Yeah, yeah. you know, fan theories have been, oh, he's some sort of time lord. 634 00:39:46.380 --> 00:39:47.940 But in Cole's interpretation. 635 00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:50.880 He's just a man who is incredibly in tune with nature. 636 00:39:50.940 --> 00:39:56.519 And if you are incredibly in tune with nature, nothing can surprise you because it's all part of the natural order. 637 00:39:56.579 --> 00:39:59.099 And that's why nothing surprises him. 638 00:39:59.159 --> 00:40:02.159 He just he just kind of goes, oh, okay, that's what's happening now. 639 00:40:02.219 --> 00:40:04.619 So when he's saying things like, I shall talk to my bees. 640 00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:06.179 Of course he's not speaking literally. 641 00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:13.139 But what he's kind of saying is, they are nature, and I am nature, and I'll listen to the nature of the world. 642 00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:15.780 The green man or the yes. 643 00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:17.039 Yeah, it's a lot more human. 644 00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:22.619 The alien interpretation we as fans, some of us are fans, have tried to apply to it. 645 00:40:22.679 --> 00:40:25.619 Yeah, it has to be something from the Doctor Who monster book, Brendan. 646 00:40:25.619 --> 00:40:26.219 It can't be bad. 647 00:40:26.280 --> 00:40:29.159 No, no, it's it's just a different human way. 648 00:40:29.219 --> 00:40:30.719 Oh, looking at it. 649 00:40:30.780 --> 00:40:32.940 Turn the Hunter, the whole, yeah. 650 00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:35.400 It could have been Sarah Sutton, really, couldn't it? 651 00:40:35.460 --> 00:40:37.079 But it wasn't, it was you, Lloyd. 652 00:40:37.139 --> 00:40:38.460 With a moon stallion? 653 00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:55.619 I think it's lovely that he's the one who delivers the expository dialogue about how Delta's child is developing, not directly, but he's the one who explains the life cycle of the bees and obviously meant to understand that as an explanation for what. for the entire thing. 654 00:40:55.679 --> 00:40:56.639 And he gets the last shot. 655 00:40:56.699 --> 00:40:58.619 Yes, Sylvester. 656 00:40:58.679 --> 00:40:59.400 Yeah. 657 00:40:59.460 --> 00:41:00.300 And that's the thing. 658 00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:01.559 People have kind of hinged on that. 659 00:41:01.619 --> 00:41:06.360 Oh, he's a time lord, whereas Cole's thing is just like, okay, so he's seen a box disappear. 660 00:41:06.420 --> 00:41:08.099 That box disappears. 661 00:41:08.159 --> 00:41:09.179 That's what it does. 662 00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:10.679 Happy travels, doctor. 663 00:41:10.739 --> 00:41:11.460 And he walks off. 664 00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:12.780 I think he's Merlin. 665 00:41:12.840 --> 00:41:13.559 I'm happy to take it. 666 00:41:13.619 --> 00:41:15.480 Yeah, yeah, without the ginger hair. 667 00:41:15.539 --> 00:41:23.880 What a lovely character to create, you know, rather than a mercenary who's working for the Daleks rather than... 668 00:41:23.940 --> 00:41:29.639 You know, yeah, rather than a scientist who wants to exploit plant people as slave labour. 669 00:41:29.699 --> 00:41:31.920 No, we'll have a beekeeper who's just... 670 00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:33.119 Grow rude faces on them. 671 00:41:33.179 --> 00:41:33.719 Yes. 672 00:41:33.780 --> 00:41:50.219 In fact, maybe it's telling that the villains are space mercenaries who are wearing the helmets from Earthshock and are coming in to make a really fun story, really sort of terribly boring and make lots of nods to 20th century cinema. 673 00:41:50.280 --> 00:41:54.119 This whole season is also nodding, not just on post-modern theory. 674 00:41:54.179 --> 00:42:00.119 This is Kurosawa's run and Kegamusha. where I saw summarised war. 675 00:42:00.179 --> 00:42:00.960 Banners. 676 00:42:01.019 --> 00:42:02.820 Yeah, yeah. just that the Japanese armies did. 677 00:42:02.940 --> 00:42:03.719 Ron is beautiful. 678 00:42:03.780 --> 00:42:07.679 His take on King Lear, it was later 80s. just gorgeous. 679 00:42:07.739 --> 00:42:09.360 Yellow banners and red bears. 680 00:42:09.420 --> 00:42:10.199 Beautiful to look at. 681 00:42:10.260 --> 00:42:12.840 Which you're on right now at Sydney Film Festival. 682 00:42:12.900 --> 00:42:19.559 Friend of the podcast, Greg Miller is sitting in a cinema right now watching all these these Japanese, which again, are all takes on Shakespeare. 683 00:42:19.679 --> 00:42:23.159 And I mean, you were saying earlier how seriously Don Henderson took this. 684 00:42:23.219 --> 00:42:25.440 Things like his own ham. 685 00:42:26.519 --> 00:42:29.219 Well, the ham was cured it himself. 686 00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:31.019 The ham was his idea. 687 00:42:31.079 --> 00:42:38.820 He said to um, he said to Gary Downey, how about I eat a raw ham and Gary and Gary Downey pretty much said, I'm not having you on the trots yet. 688 00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:42.059 No more cannibalism on this show, lovey. 689 00:42:42.119 --> 00:42:43.559 So. 690 00:42:43.619 --> 00:42:45.239 Well done. 691 00:42:45.840 --> 00:42:50.400 So he got a ham covered in cling wrap and put smoked salmon over the top. 692 00:42:50.820 --> 00:42:54.119 And that's what that's what Gavrock's eating. 693 00:42:54.179 --> 00:42:55.440 So indulgent. 694 00:42:55.500 --> 00:43:02.639 But in terms of the Bannermen, the reddish pinkish tongues, that was Don Henderson's idea. 695 00:43:02.699 --> 00:43:10.019 And the sort of hissing battle cry, that was Don Henderson saying... to be in the room for that listener. 696 00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:13.199 The these people are an army. 697 00:43:13.260 --> 00:43:16.079 They should have some kind of recognisable thing. 698 00:43:16.139 --> 00:43:17.579 He like, you know, I know it's not all about us. 699 00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:19.019 So how about something small like this? 700 00:43:19.079 --> 00:43:21.900 And Cyclops, X-Men bicycle glasses. 701 00:43:22.019 --> 00:43:24.719 Yeah, I still want a pair of those. 702 00:43:24.780 --> 00:43:26.760 I think you can go down to paddies and get one. 703 00:43:27.599 --> 00:43:29.880 What's changed from a fiver, though? 704 00:43:29.940 --> 00:43:33.960 Yeah, no, I think I think the Bannerman being so... 705 00:43:35.159 --> 00:43:37.440 So utterly evil, if you like. 706 00:43:37.500 --> 00:43:40.139 So deliberate, you know, they're dressed in it's black and red. 707 00:43:40.199 --> 00:43:41.099 They're aggressive. 708 00:43:41.159 --> 00:43:43.019 There's no redeeming features. 709 00:43:43.079 --> 00:43:58.139 I think it's a deliberate effort to counterpoint that with the gentleness of all the other characters and Garonway living with nature and Delta trying to make her species survive and Ray being in love with Billy, but being in love with him enough to understand that. 710 00:43:58.199 --> 00:44:00.300 She's not what he wants. 711 00:44:00.360 --> 00:44:04.380 Now, I'm still looking at this, Richard, as the idea of free will rather than pheromones. 712 00:44:04.440 --> 00:44:06.599 But I think that's the thing. 713 00:44:06.659 --> 00:44:07.860 These 2 forces come together. 714 00:44:07.860 --> 00:44:11.280 And then at the end, we get the song, which is the message of the story. 715 00:44:11.340 --> 00:44:12.420 Love is the answer. 716 00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:17.519 I'm not necessarily saying it's a conscious dig at Eric Saywood, and I don't think it is. 717 00:44:17.519 --> 00:44:20.039 Like Cartmel... 718 00:44:20.159 --> 00:44:27.659 I'm like, say, Christopher Hamilton Bitmead, who has been critical of the script's editors before him, in a professional sense. 719 00:44:27.780 --> 00:44:33.840 I've never really heard Cartmel sort of pointing at Eric Seywood and saying this was wrong, that was wrong. 720 00:44:33.900 --> 00:44:36.059 He kind of says too much. 721 00:44:36.119 --> 00:44:39.300 Too much was revealed about the doctor, so we wanted him to be more mysterious. 722 00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:44.699 But I think it is just a rejection in general, a violent storytelling. 723 00:44:44.760 --> 00:44:47.639 And the kind of might is right thing. 724 00:44:47.639 --> 00:44:49.980 And it's saying, actually, no, what all you need is love. 725 00:44:50.039 --> 00:44:55.920 Well, I mean, there's not much interest in sketching out the Bannermen and who they are and why they are. 726 00:44:55.980 --> 00:44:58.739 They're not supposed to be... not the focus of the story. 727 00:44:58.800 --> 00:45:00.119 They're not what we're interested in. 728 00:45:00.179 --> 00:45:05.760 They're there to motivate the flight of the Shimmerons, and that's really, you know, all they're there for. 729 00:45:05.820 --> 00:45:08.639 Which was the title of this episode. 730 00:45:08.639 --> 00:45:11.219 Almost right up until they made the title cards. 731 00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:14.940 It was the title of the episode all through the actual filming period. 732 00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:23.039 So it started off as Flight of the Shimmer and Briefly Delta and the Bannerman, Flight of the Shimmer in again, and then Delta and the Bannerman, I think, literally 2 days before they made the opening credits. 733 00:45:23.099 --> 00:45:26.699 It was pushing the rock and roll thing, because James he thought it sounded like a 50s band. 734 00:45:26.760 --> 00:45:33.300 And also like an Echo in the Barney, which was also meant to sound like a 50s. during broadcast. 735 00:45:33.360 --> 00:45:38.760 A a Merseyside band contacted the production office and said, you do know where called Delta and the Battle. 736 00:45:38.820 --> 00:45:42.480 No. no idea how much truth there was to it. 737 00:45:42.539 --> 00:45:45.420 Like they didn't even respond and the band never wrote in again. 738 00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:46.199 But yeah. 739 00:45:47.039 --> 00:45:50.099 Second Doctor Who story to have and in the title. 740 00:45:50.699 --> 00:45:53.699 Silurian, so everywhere. 741 00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:54.420 No, that doesn't count. 742 00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:56.760 So which one are you talking about? 743 00:45:57.480 --> 00:45:59.219 Oh, yes, of course. 744 00:45:59.340 --> 00:46:00.960 Tera and the autumn. 745 00:46:02.280 --> 00:46:03.780 Actually, we should rename all of them. 746 00:46:03.780 --> 00:46:05.039 Horror and Fang Rock. 747 00:46:05.639 --> 00:46:08.219 Doctor Who and the Silurians. 748 00:46:08.280 --> 00:46:10.380 The power and croll. 749 00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:16.500 He didn't write for the series again. 750 00:46:16.559 --> 00:46:17.159 Ever again. 751 00:46:17.219 --> 00:46:19.980 He said it was absolutely horrendous. 752 00:46:20.039 --> 00:46:20.639 Oh, no. 753 00:46:21.480 --> 00:46:23.039 No, he was very tried by it. 754 00:46:23.099 --> 00:46:24.480 He found it tiresome, I believe. 755 00:46:24.539 --> 00:46:27.480 He had watched Doctor Who was a kid and he did he did enjoy it. 756 00:46:27.539 --> 00:46:31.860 I believe he and Cartmel did discuss him writing for the series again, but it just didn't come off. 757 00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:32.699 Bugger off. 758 00:46:32.760 --> 00:46:33.840 No, he said no. 759 00:46:33.900 --> 00:46:34.619 He said no. 760 00:46:34.679 --> 00:46:36.179 Yeah, he said, no, I was exhausted by it. 761 00:46:36.300 --> 00:46:44.579 There were so many rewrites and changes and he said, I couldn't keep up and the fee was burnt a 3rd of the way through because they just kept making him do rewrites and rewrites. 762 00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:45.480 Part two. 763 00:46:45.480 --> 00:46:49.920 Apparently not working working for the 1st season, 2005. 764 00:46:50.099 --> 00:46:51.780 I pick for a lot of those, right? 765 00:46:51.840 --> 00:46:55.559 I think it's the... the funnest and wittiest script we've had in a long time. 766 00:46:55.619 --> 00:46:56.880 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 767 00:46:56.940 --> 00:46:59.519 I think I think possibly since Frontios. 768 00:46:59.579 --> 00:47:01.320 And Wyatt script wasn't bad either. 769 00:47:01.380 --> 00:47:04.019 No, no, there's maybe the realisation. 770 00:47:04.079 --> 00:47:07.019 But, yeah, this is stirring. 771 00:47:07.079 --> 00:47:10.019 But I mean, it's more fun, I think, than Frontios. 772 00:47:10.079 --> 00:47:11.519 I think Frontios is really accomplished. 773 00:47:11.579 --> 00:47:12.659 I really like it a great deal. 774 00:47:12.719 --> 00:47:14.280 Yeah, it's not fun though, is it? 775 00:47:14.340 --> 00:47:17.639 Well, it's also a space colony and a spaceship and meteorite. 776 00:47:17.699 --> 00:47:19.139 Proper 70s space opera. 777 00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:19.380 Yeah. 778 00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:22.559 Yeah, this just feels so fun and breezy. 779 00:47:22.619 --> 00:47:26.519 And again, we get Silv being melancholy at the end when he's talking about love. 780 00:47:26.519 --> 00:47:39.659 And, you know, you really get the impression in that scene that he knows what he's talking about through bitter and painful personal experience without him having to say, oh, I've got a granddaughter living in the 22nd century, you know. 781 00:47:39.719 --> 00:47:41.039 I locked her out. 782 00:47:41.099 --> 00:47:49.619 And on a war-torn radioactive, binge bit of the South Thames where the fish were rancid. 783 00:47:49.619 --> 00:47:52.139 And that's just the one she married. 784 00:47:55.199 --> 00:47:57.179 You never really get over your 1st time, do you? 785 00:48:13.559 --> 00:48:23.579 Dill is now, we take off from South Wales now, and, uh, you know, I think we need to stock up the freezer, so it's off to Iceworld with Dragonfire next week, do come back for that. 786 00:48:23.639 --> 00:48:30.480 You can find us online at flightthroughentirety.sexy, flight through entirety on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at FTE podcast on Twitter. 787 00:48:30.780 --> 00:48:31.860 Over on Bondfinger. 788 00:48:31.920 --> 00:48:35.880 We are on a top of things with the Pierce Brosnan era of James Bond. 789 00:48:35.940 --> 00:48:42.300 You can find that at bondfinger.com, bondfinger on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at bondfingercast on Twitter. 790 00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:47.820 Don't forget, you can still vote in our Peter Davison commentary extravaganza. 791 00:48:47.880 --> 00:48:53.820 Your choices are for Doomsday, Arc of Infinity, Enlightenment, and Resurrection of the Daleks. 792 00:48:53.880 --> 00:48:55.440 Resurrection and the dialogues. 793 00:48:56.280 --> 00:49:02.400 Until next week, may none of your bees actually be stock footage of locusts, seriously, pause it and have a look. 794 00:49:02.460 --> 00:49:03.960 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 795 00:49:04.019 --> 00:49:26.159 Good night. night That was Flight Through Entirety with Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone. 796 00:49:26.219 --> 00:49:29.579 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, logo designed by Anthony Wells. 797 00:49:29.639 --> 00:49:33.599 This episode, Bitter and Painful, was recorded on the 12th of June, 2017. 798 00:49:33.780 --> 00:49:36.480 The next episode will be released on the 16th July. 799 00:49:42.599 --> 00:49:46.920 Delta could have saved herself a lot of trouble if she just had access to dating apps. 800 00:49:47.039 --> 00:49:52.980 Queen seeks slave drone for companionship and enslaved propagation must own, own leathers. 801 00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:04.500 Delta and the Bennermen, 12th of April. 802 00:50:04.739 --> 00:50:09.239 It's not the 12th of April, you silly man. 12th of June. 803 00:50:09.539 --> 00:50:11.760 Sorry, I got excited. 804 00:50:12.480 --> 00:50:14.460 You silly man. 805 00:50:14.460 --> 00:50:15.900 Suddenly, suddenly. 806 00:50:16.019 --> 00:50:18.960 Suddenly we're all just footnoting shard now. 807 00:50:19.320 --> 00:50:21.420 You silly man. 808 00:50:21.480 --> 00:50:22.380 Doctor. 809 00:50:23.219 --> 00:50:25.739 I'm going to tell my Williams.