WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 12:18:00

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast whose performative thickness is

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defined by auxiliary semiotic codes.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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And I'll be arguing that the semiotic thickness of a performed

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text does not, in fact, vary according to the redundancy of

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auxiliary performance codes.

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All that and more to look forward to in Dragonfire.

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Aren't you glad you're tuned in?

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So, um, yeah, we come to the story which for ages was lauded as

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the good one this season where everything else was crap, and we we

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have the return of a few things.

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We have the return of Dominic Glynn doing the music.

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Music is spectacular.

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Didn't hurt.

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And we also have the return of Tony Selby as Sabalong Glitz, but

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sadly not Glenn Murthy as Dibber.

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We have Patricia Queen.

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Oh my god.

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And I'm looking sober.

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Who doesn't do it with his Yorkshire accent?

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Do you know how space he is?

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He's not just your white skin tight onesies and Eurasters.

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He was in the last Charles Crichton journey into space series of

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the late 70s, early 80s playing an astronaut.

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Playing it straight.

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And he's also in Kill the Moon, playing an astronaut.

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I've seen his bum.

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Really?

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Yes.

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Well, not quite his full bum, but he's, I'll tell you what, it's

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worth voting for. sign, but I wouldn't mind doing 45 minutes on

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that one.

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I was going to say, can I touch you?

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Because I think he's really handsome.

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And he's very funny.

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But in Journey to Space, which is again, you know, the thing that

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we talked about in Billy's era, I really won't spend a lot of time

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on this.

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It was the last radio show to ever beat TV in the ratings.

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But yeah, this has got a stellar cast of it's got Edward Peel.

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It's got Edward Peel, who wasn't going to be in it.

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It was, you know, Peter Jeffreys was actually up.

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I don't know if he ever got there, but you know, those sorts.

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Can you imagine Karl Grendel in this?

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He would have been.

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But it was very much in the line.

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Do you remember who else was going to be up for this?

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Was it Beryl Reed?

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I wish it had been.

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Imagine Beryl Reed's face melting off in the final episode.

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Oh, we need to talk about it.

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How would you tell?

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Do you know that there was a little bit of chat?

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Oh no, you can't.

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It's 2 Raiders of the Lost Duck.

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Ronald Lacy was actually approached to play the part, who, in fact

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played the melting Nazi in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

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And that cost, that one effect on Raiders of the Lost Ark cost the

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entire William Hartnell era's budget in 1980, 81.

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Really did.

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They did this with wax and an adipose-inflatable lady person that

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you can buy in shops where you can't tell your mum you've been.

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Yeah, and that seriously is how they did it.

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And I think it looks extraordinary.

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Looks amazing.

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That moment with his face melting, I've mentioned this before in

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stones of blood.

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So Stones of Blood where Romana falls off the cliff was one of the

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moments as a kid that I couldn't stay in the room.

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I had to run into the other room and sort of peek around the

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corner.

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And in high heels. managed that.

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The other moment was Kane's face melting.

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I found it so terrifying as a kid.

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I had to sort of peek around the corner, not being quite able to

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see the screen, but I could see the white out moment and that's

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when I could come back in.

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It's so amazing because they screened it here like before 6 p.m. on

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the ABC.

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Yeah.

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I think it comes back to something I was saying a couple of weeks

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ago in that Doctor Who is pushing the envelope because they're

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like, no one's paying attention.

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Exactly it.

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It's like the 1st season of Rove when he was on Channel 9 doing

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ridiculous comedy sketches about the mysterious Tonya Todman

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sightings and things like that.

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Oh, you know, because he's like nobody's watching anyway.

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And sure enough, he got cancelled and Channel 10 picked him up.

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Did you know that Tonya Toldman did see herself as Australia's own

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Martha Stewart for anyone listening?

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Oh, yeah.

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She doesn't know who she is.

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That's who she was.

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She was doing crafty things.

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Anna Theresa May Helmet Monoidwig, which was in fact her own

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hair.

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She was a little bit motherly and nice.

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So it's no wonder that she died in a flaming inferno of her own

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egotism, just right as well.

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And I can't stand those people, can you?

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And as for Tonya Todman.

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Well, she was later cast as the dragon in this, wasn't she?

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I think that this is the least successful story of the season.

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And yet, yeah, I wonder why it is that this had the reputation of

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being the good one.

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I think it's because unlike the other 3 stories, there is a

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consistency of tone to script to design to performance.

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Even with Delta last week, I praised the fact that you have a

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really mean mercenary force coming into this jolly story and

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everything's destroyed by the power of love, not in a new series

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kind of way of someone remembering someone they really love and

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that power destroys them.

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Like, no, love brings these people together and they do fight

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them.

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But here, I think it is a lot more coherent and consistent.

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The problem then is that watching it down the years, and at this

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point, Doctor Who was being made for the video generation, it was

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being made to be watched more than once.

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You know, you can look at the 1st 3 stories of this season and

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peel it back and look at the different layers, like you've

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discussed, Richard, with the postmodernism of it.

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Whereas Dragonfire.

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I don't think is bad by any means, but I think there's less to

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peel back and less to discover.

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It wears it a lot closer to the surface.

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It seems a bit inessential.

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I mean, I think there are great things in it.

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I like the having a little adventure in the corridors and being

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back in time for tea.

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I think that's charming and that, um, that's the keys of

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marinace.

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Ice world episode.

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You're barely back in time for dinner next Wednesday, I think, in

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that one.

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It goes forever.

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But this, it has enough incident to fill out 3 episodes and we

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haven't talked about the new 3 episode stories, which is yet

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another thing that the show hasn't done. planet of and Giants.

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That's exactly right.

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And even then, that wasn't deliberate.

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That was Verity Lambert saying these last 2 episodes are

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terrible.

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So it's a really, really good length for a Doctor Who story, I

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think.

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And why didn't they think of doing it before?

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You know, just do 4 episode things because that's what we've

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always done.

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I think that's charming.

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I think the stuff about the seduction of Ace, you know, the way

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that you lose your free will when you follow Kane and the scene

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with the sovereign, which...

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Yeah, yeah, the market.

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Which, um, is so beautifully sold by Dominic Glynn's music.

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I think that's terrific.

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I'm so relieved he's on this one.

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Yeah, and I think also, the camera just stays on Sophie Eldred, and

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the sound mixing is amazing because the sounds in the background

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kind of get diminished, and we've just have Kane's voice with a

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very slight echo on it, and with Mel screaming to Ace, it's

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actually really quiet in the mix.

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And then you're just pretty much on Sophie's face for about 30

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seconds.

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And she's playing it all behind the eyes.

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You know, Sophie Eldred hits the ground running as ace.

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What an extraordinary up and tumble to the present time.

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She's so contemporary.

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Well, it is that thing where, um, where they've created a story

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and I don't know if this was originally intentional, but I guess

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the reason the story can get away with being so inessential is

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that its main job is to introduce Ace, you know, in the way that

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the rescue was designed to introduce Vicky.

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And so...

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I was going to say Dodo.

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That little trip to Wimbledon Common was designed to introduce

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Dodo.

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But and so I guess that works, doesn't it?

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We get to see what she's like.

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We get some time for her to interact with Mel so that we learn

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things about her, that the doctor doesn't even know.

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And also, her scenes with Mel bring out more character from Bonnie

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Langford as well as this sorororal maternal figure 4 ace. you know

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and because we know so little about Mel anyway, it kind of falls a

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bit short, but I love their scenes together.

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I do too.

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Yeah, I love that bookending of Colin to Sylvester's regeneration

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when she deliberately bumps ahead without actually touching the

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raven cameras right on it, showing you.

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She never really did in the 1st place.

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And we get that, you know, that bit where she talks about the time

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storm whipping her up, and it's complete nonsense and it's going

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to be recon later as part of a story arc, spoiler alert.

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Well, it's not complete nonsense, is it?

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Because her name's Dorothy.

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She gets carried away to a magical land by a storm.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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And that's only the beginning of the filmic references.

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But that's the thing.

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Her conversation with Mel, because it's too new friends talking

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they make it seem like it's it's just normal for them to be

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talking about these kind of things.

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And you get Ace's speech about how she's always felt like an

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outsider and she felt like she was from space and somewhere her

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real parents were because she hates her mum and dad and then sort

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of admits to Mel that her real name is Dorothy.

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And it's this moment of...

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I've never told anyone, including the teachers at school or...

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My sister.

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As bo people.

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I mean, it makes no sense.

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But it's this moment of vulnerability and Mel to her great credit

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you know, she thinks it's going to be this amazing secret and Mel

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doesn't laugh in her face or anything.

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And Ace just quickly turns it into a joke.

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Oh, you know, I knew they couldn't be my real mum and dad.

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It's just this really sweet moment of character development and we

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haven't had character development like this since episode one of

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Planet of Fire, for God's sake.

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This is true, actually.

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Oh, look what they did with Nicola, yeah, with Perry, I should

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say.

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But all those scenes together of Bonnie and Sophie are just gold

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in my opinion.

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Big finish have obviously thought the same because now they've

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paired them up together.

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And I've just been listening to those as well.

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There's about 4 stories now, the TARDIS rescues Mel from the

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Nosferatu 3.

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There's so many filmic references.

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I think this is where you're saying this isn't the greatest story

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of the season.

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I possibly agree with you.

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It should have been fan culture will tell you at the time we

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thought it was.

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We definitely all did because we were students and it references

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everything visually and name checking.

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All the guards, everyone who works there are either in film

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criticism or are filmmakers.

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The ice worlds itself.

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Can we just have a little moment?

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Charger glasses, do listeners.

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But most of the names they've checked, certainly the German names

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and the Russian names, Pudofkin, of course, and it was the other

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one.

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Siegfried Krakawa was, in fact, a German expressionist film.

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And he also wrote from Kalagari to Hitler, which is, you know

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pretty much modern politics, but it also, well, yeah, it's also

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considered the best book on that period of interwar German cinema

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which we're now calling German expressionism because Nathan keeps

252
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giving us looks if we use the term German expressionism.

253
00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:07.019
Yeah, but this is the problem.

254
00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:08.519
They do name check these things.

255
00:13:08.580 --> 00:13:11.519
You've got the ice world, which is, you know, with the caves of

256
00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:14.460
crystals and all the rest, which is actually kind of, again, citing

257
00:13:14.460 --> 00:13:17.580
the films of that era, German cinema at the time made a lot of

258
00:13:17.580 --> 00:13:18.779
films about mountains.

259
00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:21.240
Lini Reefenstyle started climbing up mountains.

260
00:13:21.299 --> 00:13:21.960
It was a big thing.

261
00:13:22.019 --> 00:13:22.799
I stuff.

262
00:13:22.860 --> 00:13:26.879
So a lot of early film criticism talks about outdoor filming nice

263
00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:27.179
things.

264
00:13:27.240 --> 00:13:28.320
There's all these...

265
00:13:28.379 --> 00:13:30.299
Oh my god, the levels of this stuff.

266
00:13:30.360 --> 00:13:30.960
But does it help?

267
00:13:31.019 --> 00:13:31.799
I don't think it does.

268
00:13:31.860 --> 00:13:35.340
I don't think it makes any of it stronger or wealthier.

269
00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:36.360
It's cute.

270
00:13:36.419 --> 00:13:37.259
Do you know what I mean?

271
00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:41.940
Like the person that Ace works for in the cafeteria is Eisenstein

272
00:13:41.940 --> 00:13:42.480
I think, you know.

273
00:13:42.539 --> 00:13:43.860
Oh, he was going to be Anderson.

274
00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:46.440
Oh, he's Anderson, but he was actually written as Eisenstein.

275
00:13:46.500 --> 00:13:49.860
And in the novelette, he's still Eisenstein.

276
00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:51.840
Yeah, rather than Sylvia Anderson.

277
00:13:51.899 --> 00:13:55.799
But it is all sort of slightly like it's a bit of a veneer, you

278
00:13:55.799 --> 00:13:56.039
know?

279
00:13:56.639 --> 00:13:57.360
Yeah, very much so.

280
00:13:57.419 --> 00:13:59.759
They do reference with an aerial.

281
00:13:59.820 --> 00:14:04.860
They reference aliens, you know, way so much with the ant

282
00:14:04.860 --> 00:14:05.279
monster.

283
00:14:05.340 --> 00:14:08.399
Although I do like the way the little pig cracks open, just like a

284
00:14:08.399 --> 00:14:09.240
Kinder surprise.

285
00:14:09.299 --> 00:14:13.440
It's like a fluffy sort of plush alien, isn't it?

286
00:14:13.500 --> 00:14:15.840
They're sort of happy toys animal.

287
00:14:15.899 --> 00:14:16.679
Yeah, yeah.

288
00:14:16.740 --> 00:14:19.080
I loved the alien as a kid, though.

289
00:14:19.139 --> 00:14:20.940
And I think...

290
00:14:20.940 --> 00:14:23.340
I have to see him trying to tie up his shoelaces.

291
00:14:24.059 --> 00:14:28.679
You know, we questioned during our live tweet, what is the purpose

292
00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:31.799
of Stellar and her mother in the story?

293
00:14:31.860 --> 00:14:34.259
And they have 2 purposes.

294
00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:37.379
One is for the kid to be saved by the aliens, so we can see that

295
00:14:37.379 --> 00:14:38.700
the alien is not an evil creature.

296
00:14:38.820 --> 00:14:40.019
Just like Newton.

297
00:14:40.139 --> 00:14:40.799
Just like Newt?

298
00:14:40.860 --> 00:14:41.340
Yeah, yeah.

299
00:14:41.460 --> 00:14:44.159
And the other is for the closing shop.

300
00:14:44.220 --> 00:14:47.340
You know, it's a child looking up and seeing the TARDIS

301
00:14:47.340 --> 00:14:50.519
disappearing, which is cute, but it's it's a veneer, as you say.

302
00:14:50.580 --> 00:14:53.759
It doesn't quite work as well because the child is so terrible.

303
00:14:53.879 --> 00:14:58.200
But I thought she was a lampoon of all those child booty contests

304
00:14:58.320 --> 00:14:59.580
and talent content.

305
00:14:59.639 --> 00:15:01.500
She sort of jumping a Ramsay in space.

306
00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:03.299
Quite possibly.

307
00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:06.360
I mean, her mother is the female camper who gets killed by the

308
00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:07.620
ogre in stone's blood.

309
00:15:07.740 --> 00:15:09.299
Justly.

310
00:15:10.799 --> 00:15:14.759
Yeah, and no, I get what you're saying about the veneer because

311
00:15:14.759 --> 00:15:17.460
it's kind of like, okay, we have these characters named after

312
00:15:17.460 --> 00:15:19.679
films and directors.

313
00:15:19.740 --> 00:15:20.940
So what?

314
00:15:21.179 --> 00:15:22.980
Yeah, it kind of is.

315
00:15:23.039 --> 00:15:23.399
So what?

316
00:15:23.460 --> 00:15:25.259
Because it doesn't lend itself to anything.

317
00:15:25.259 --> 00:15:26.639
It's just a nod and a tick.

318
00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:28.799
And you feel horribly clever at 18.

319
00:15:28.980 --> 00:15:30.360
No, 19 knowing any of this.

320
00:15:30.419 --> 00:15:33.600
Well, even the quote from the unfolding text, which you have

321
00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:37.860
around here, which, somewhere, the doctor, look out.

322
00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:40.980
The doctor has that conversation with the guard.

323
00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:43.080
And most of it is nonsensical.

324
00:15:43.139 --> 00:15:45.960
The whole thing doesn't make sense as a conversation about

325
00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:46.440
anything.

326
00:15:46.860 --> 00:15:51.120
It's flinging a whole bunch of sort of 1st year philosophy

327
00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:54.840
concepts and bringing them up and trying to make a conversation

328
00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:56.580
but it doesn't really actually work.

329
00:15:56.879 --> 00:16:01.259
Yeah, yeah, yeah. you know, we liked hearing it name checked at

330
00:16:01.259 --> 00:16:01.620
the time.

331
00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:05.279
And then he comes out with that quote from the unfolding text.

332
00:16:05.279 --> 00:16:11.700
And it's a great comedy moment because of Sylvester's reaction, but

333
00:16:11.700 --> 00:16:13.320
it doesn't really go anywhere.

334
00:16:13.379 --> 00:16:16.980
The story itself isn't about any of that sort of thing.

335
00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:20.399
And, you know, there are other references.

336
00:16:20.460 --> 00:16:23.159
I mean, Peel is clearly Dracula.

337
00:16:23.220 --> 00:16:27.960
You know, he sleeps in a coffin behind an arrangement of ice

338
00:16:27.960 --> 00:16:31.440
crystals on the wall that look like a pipe organ, you know.

339
00:16:31.500 --> 00:16:34.799
The placement of the little girl is, again, Boris Kyloff, James

340
00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:38.639
Wales, Frankenstein when he meets the little girl in the in the

341
00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:38.879
woods.

342
00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:43.379
Yeah, so those things are nice, but it's hard to say that they

343
00:16:43.379 --> 00:16:46.320
even give the story any extra texture even.

344
00:16:46.379 --> 00:16:52.019
But that's because thinness of the polemics of postmodern theory

345
00:16:52.019 --> 00:16:55.500
is that everything's intertextualized and self-referential within

346
00:16:55.500 --> 00:16:56.580
and outside of itself.

347
00:16:56.639 --> 00:17:00.120
Maybe they're just redundant auxiliary performance codes.

348
00:17:00.179 --> 00:17:03.720
Well, if you talk about semiotic thickness, that's what you got in

349
00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:08.339
city of death, city of and death, which, you know, all of those

350
00:17:08.339 --> 00:17:10.680
things with Catherine Skell, you know, for example, when she

351
00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:13.920
appears, Dudley Simpson puts little riffs of the pink panther

352
00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:14.339
themes.

353
00:17:15.180 --> 00:17:18.240
Yeah, she was one of Clouseau's girls in the Pink Panther film.

354
00:17:18.299 --> 00:17:21.839
So there's all of that kind of thing or the bond villain, no one

355
00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:25.079
takes seriously threatening the doctor and it's so good.

356
00:17:25.140 --> 00:17:26.700
Can we do City City City?

357
00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:28.079
Just let's just sit into it. again.

358
00:17:28.140 --> 00:17:28.799
Let's just do it now.

359
00:17:28.859 --> 00:17:29.700
Well, we kind of are.

360
00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:34.259
Because that's probably the closest story in Doctor Who law to

361
00:17:34.259 --> 00:17:37.920
this one as far as textualizing.

362
00:17:38.099 --> 00:17:41.880
I just think maybe City of Death does it better because it's

363
00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:45.660
probably a more competent or well-rounded writer at the pen.

364
00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:47.940
And it's genuinely about that.

365
00:17:48.059 --> 00:17:56.099
I mean, it is about mass producing the Mona Lisa and the idea...

366
00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:58.559
Yeah, art to scarcity and all of that sort of stuff.

367
00:17:58.619 --> 00:18:01.799
And so there really is something terribly clever going on.

368
00:18:01.859 --> 00:18:04.559
Whereas Zana's sculptures, that's a little bit, I would have

369
00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:07.380
melted him before that.

370
00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:10.799
I wouldn't put her in a top shop window. would you?

371
00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:13.799
No, and so like, no.

372
00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:18.900
And so there's a sort of thinness to that whole thing.

373
00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:22.920
And just the discovery that really everything interesting happened

374
00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:28.440
1000s of years ago, much like, yes, the film theoreticians that

375
00:18:28.440 --> 00:18:30.000
they're pulling up, yeah.

376
00:18:30.059 --> 00:18:34.619
I'm just not convinced that Edward Peel hasn't kind of looked out

377
00:18:34.619 --> 00:18:37.500
the window or checked a telescope to see whether there is planet

378
00:18:37.500 --> 00:18:38.339
still there or not.

379
00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:38.940
You know?

380
00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:42.299
Oh, yeah, we can touch on. the fairy tale nature of it, isn't it?

381
00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:43.019
suppose.

382
00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:49.079
Well, sometimes when it's one or 2 days before payday, I don't

383
00:18:49.079 --> 00:18:50.099
want to check my bank balance.

384
00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:52.859
I don't want to look at what I've spent.

385
00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:55.079
Or watch an Edward Peele performance.

386
00:18:55.140 --> 00:18:57.420
It's kind, it's kind of a...

387
00:18:57.480 --> 00:19:00.240
I think it's kind of a Schrodinger thing that he's so obsessed

388
00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:02.880
with getting home and having his revenge.

389
00:19:02.940 --> 00:19:04.019
That's all he focusses on.

390
00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:05.460
So he never stops to think.

391
00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:06.960
What if there's more?

392
00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:10.619
And I think... is that all there is?

393
00:19:10.680 --> 00:19:13.019
And that actually ties in with the conversation that the doctor

394
00:19:13.019 --> 00:19:16.559
has with the guard that you were just talking about, because the

395
00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:19.500
doctor talks to him about, basically, do you believe in God?

396
00:19:19.500 --> 00:19:21.900
And the guard's response is, well, no, I believe in what's here

397
00:19:21.900 --> 00:19:23.460
and now right in front of me.

398
00:19:23.579 --> 00:19:29.819
But I also think that you can dream of whatever could be and it

399
00:19:29.819 --> 00:19:31.259
can come into being.

400
00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:35.400
And that kind of triggers then the quote from the unfolding text.

401
00:19:35.460 --> 00:19:40.319
But the payoff for that scene, isn't Glitz a spaceship, where

402
00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:45.660
they're talking about the nature of Bellage and her service to

403
00:19:45.660 --> 00:19:48.059
Kane and whether she is her own person or not.

404
00:19:48.119 --> 00:19:52.859
And it starts off with a joke, which is her saying to doctor, what

405
00:19:52.859 --> 00:19:53.400
are you doing here?

406
00:19:53.460 --> 00:19:55.920
And he says, why is everyone so obsessed with metaphysics?

407
00:19:56.519 --> 00:19:58.500
Which is brilliant.

408
00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:00.480
But then there's that beautiful moment.

409
00:20:00.539 --> 00:20:04.200
You know how pertly used to get to have his moment of charm wants

410
00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:08.039
a story where he's very sweet and consoling. era.

411
00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:11.519
He's very sweet and consoling to someone.

412
00:20:11.579 --> 00:20:16.259
Silv gets to have his moment of sadness when he says to Bellage, I

413
00:20:16.259 --> 00:20:20.160
don't think you'll ever pay off your debt to Kane ever.

414
00:20:20.220 --> 00:20:21.599
And the way he looks at her.

415
00:20:22.740 --> 00:20:26.039
And, you know, you don't then see Bellage let them go, you don't

416
00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:28.980
see her leave the ship, but all of a sudden, she's somewhere and

417
00:20:28.980 --> 00:20:29.700
there somewhere.

418
00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:32.759
And yeah, she's just gone, okay, I'm not going to try and steal

419
00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:32.940
this.

420
00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:34.140
I have to go face my fear.

421
00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:38.460
And she's a future possible version of Ace, obviously.

422
00:20:38.519 --> 00:20:40.980
Very much what's at stake, isn't it?

423
00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:42.660
And the way...

424
00:20:42.660 --> 00:20:43.920
Colin Baker Freightwig.

425
00:20:44.339 --> 00:20:52.500
But the way that Edward Peel appeals to ace...

426
00:20:52.619 --> 00:20:53.519
I saw what you did there.

427
00:20:53.579 --> 00:20:54.660
Yeah, sorry about that.

428
00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:55.859
I was trying to avoid it.

429
00:20:56.519 --> 00:21:02.160
Appeals to Ace is the same way that the doctor later appeals to

430
00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:04.140
Ace, is very much so.

431
00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:06.839
You know, it's the Florana speech, isn't it?

432
00:21:06.900 --> 00:21:07.799
Yeah.

433
00:21:07.859 --> 00:21:11.640
Oh, actually, I was thinking ahead to the Fenrick. yes, you're

434
00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:11.819
right.

435
00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:13.259
The Anne Fenrick, yeah.

436
00:21:13.319 --> 00:21:16.079
Yeah, it's all those things that I'm going to show you.

437
00:21:16.140 --> 00:21:20.220
I can show you the universe and that's exactly what Kane says to

438
00:21:20.220 --> 00:21:20.700
Ace.

439
00:21:20.819 --> 00:21:23.700
Look what happened to Paul Sarah Jane.

440
00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:27.240
Just stuck on another mud quarry with a whole lot of rubber

441
00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:27.720
arrows.

442
00:21:27.720 --> 00:21:29.519
At her person.

443
00:21:29.940 --> 00:21:33.299
I think the big difference between those speeches though.

444
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:37.559
And it's just, it's the line that rings in my head from when Kane

445
00:21:37.559 --> 00:21:39.960
is trying. it is a seduction scene.

446
00:21:40.019 --> 00:21:43.920
He's trying to seduce as and take advantage of her, is, I

447
00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:44.759
understand you.

448
00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:50.519
Because, you know, Ace is set up as his character who, much like

449
00:21:50.519 --> 00:21:53.400
many of us when we were teenagers, we feel no one understands us

450
00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:54.480
and no one has our back.

451
00:21:54.779 --> 00:22:00.299
So for him to say that to Ace, he is saying exactly what she wants

452
00:22:00.299 --> 00:22:00.900
to hear.

453
00:22:00.900 --> 00:22:05.160
Whereas when the doctor does it, all he's saying to her is, hey, do

454
00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:06.720
you want to have an adventure before you go home?

455
00:22:06.779 --> 00:22:11.160
He doesn't kind of say, oh, you should come with me because X, Y, Z

456
00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:13.259
because I understand you because it's because that, because he

457
00:22:13.259 --> 00:22:16.079
doesn't have to because they have built this friendship

458
00:22:16.079 --> 00:22:17.940
tentatively.

459
00:22:17.940 --> 00:22:21.539
And, you know, he gives her 3 rules, which is basically just, do

460
00:22:21.539 --> 00:22:22.140
what I say.

461
00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:23.460
My name's the doctor.

462
00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:26.039
And what the hell, we'll figure out the 3rd rule later.

463
00:22:26.099 --> 00:22:31.799
You know, he's fun and he's quirky wearers, whereas Kane, he's

464
00:22:31.799 --> 00:22:32.160
sleazy.

465
00:22:32.819 --> 00:22:37.140
His modernist cinema is averse to postmodern media, which the

466
00:22:37.140 --> 00:22:37.559
doctor is.

467
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:40.319
And, you know, that's why he's frozen.

468
00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:41.700
He's so still.

469
00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:45.299
And that's why all the critics and all the writers and sorry, all

470
00:22:45.299 --> 00:22:48.180
the filmmakers they were speaking of before belonged to the past

471
00:22:48.180 --> 00:22:52.619
eras of constructive cinema or indeed subjective or indeed

472
00:22:52.619 --> 00:22:55.619
structuralist thinking, which is what's being cited.

473
00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:59.220
When I'm not going to let these auxiliary redundant codes go, you

474
00:22:59.220 --> 00:22:59.460
know.

475
00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:03.420
You're going to worry these things like a huge piece of uncued ham

476
00:23:03.420 --> 00:23:04.680
Don Henderson.

477
00:23:04.740 --> 00:23:05.099
I am.

478
00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:09.059
And time has flown by without them.

479
00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:11.039
And this is the beautiful thing.

480
00:23:11.099 --> 00:23:15.180
And so that makes sense of Nathan's exact point, which is how can

481
00:23:15.180 --> 00:23:18.420
he have sat in isolation and not noticed that his world is blown

482
00:23:18.420 --> 00:23:21.660
up, or indeed that a supernova cannot take 1000000s of years, but

483
00:23:21.660 --> 00:23:22.680
actually just a thousand.

484
00:23:22.740 --> 00:23:25.980
But, you know, between, if it blew up a 1000 years ago.

485
00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:27.180
Yes, souls.

486
00:23:27.240 --> 00:23:33.779
But that's the point because he lives in a sub-zero shopping

487
00:23:33.779 --> 00:23:34.259
mall.

488
00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:35.039
Yeah.

489
00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:36.779
He has all this power.

490
00:23:37.740 --> 00:23:41.400
All this power, all this ability, this frozen ice world that could

491
00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:41.700
be anything.

492
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:44.519
He makes a frozen supermarket.

493
00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:46.619
Why?

494
00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:47.640
Why?

495
00:23:47.700 --> 00:23:50.579
Because it's ordinary and it's drossy and it's, again, the

496
00:23:50.579 --> 00:23:53.819
Paradise Towers thing and it's a bit pants and that kind of works

497
00:23:53.819 --> 00:23:54.359
as well.

498
00:23:54.420 --> 00:23:57.480
And it really does look crap, does it?

499
00:23:57.720 --> 00:24:01.859
Do you think it's a relic of what we talked about last week, how

500
00:24:01.859 --> 00:24:03.539
this was going to be the comedy one?

501
00:24:03.660 --> 00:24:10.140
And so Ice World is, again, another sort of comic conception of

502
00:24:10.140 --> 00:24:12.180
what a science fiction world is like.

503
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:14.759
It's not a refuelling centre.

504
00:24:14.819 --> 00:24:16.680
It's not a space refinery.

505
00:24:16.740 --> 00:24:19.559
It's a shopping centre.

506
00:24:19.619 --> 00:24:23.160
And there's something fun about that.

507
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:27.779
Like the scene in the cafe where, like we're just in a cafe with

508
00:24:27.779 --> 00:24:29.220
people, that's really funny.

509
00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:32.940
Sylvester goes to pat that, whatever the hell it is and it goes to

510
00:24:32.940 --> 00:24:33.599
Barton.

511
00:24:33.660 --> 00:24:34.259
I love that.

512
00:24:34.259 --> 00:24:34.799
Remember that?

513
00:24:35.339 --> 00:24:37.140
was still throwing that in, you know. really great.

514
00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:38.819
It's really funny.

515
00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:42.180
You know, the ice cream on the head, throwing the milkshake on the

516
00:24:42.180 --> 00:24:42.779
head is fun.

517
00:24:42.839 --> 00:24:46.920
That woman that we talked about. feeler and doing that Visconti, it

518
00:24:46.920 --> 00:24:47.759
still wouldn't have come off.

519
00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:52.559
But the wonderful woman that we talked about last week who plays

520
00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:57.720
the Tannoi voice. voice over the PA with her increasingly

521
00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:01.019
plaintive attempts to persuade someone from maintenance to go

522
00:25:01.019 --> 00:25:05.880
upstairs and clean the ice out of the docking bay and stuff.

523
00:25:05.940 --> 00:25:09.359
Like all of that stuff, I think, is really funny and light, and it

524
00:25:09.359 --> 00:25:12.539
does create, it creates an interesting world of a kind that we

525
00:25:12.539 --> 00:25:14.700
haven't seen in Doctor Who before.

526
00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:19.319
And it also picks up on that thing you mentioned a few weeks ago

527
00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:21.720
Richard, with Paradise Towers, in that it takes something normal

528
00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:26.700
and subverts it with essentially a Nazi war criminal living

529
00:25:26.700 --> 00:25:27.180
underneath.

530
00:25:27.180 --> 00:25:31.859
Because, because, okay, the 1st conception of this story was

531
00:25:31.859 --> 00:25:34.980
called Absolute Zero, which was about a 14-year-old financial

532
00:25:34.980 --> 00:25:40.380
genius and his sidekick, Mr. Spewey, who were in this ice pyramid

533
00:25:40.380 --> 00:25:42.000
in space trying to find a treasure.

534
00:25:42.059 --> 00:25:45.900
And Andrew Cartmel said, well, actually, um...

535
00:25:45.960 --> 00:25:48.839
Well, Delta and the Bannerman is being a bit more comedic.

536
00:25:48.900 --> 00:25:49.740
Can you be a bit more serious?

537
00:25:49.799 --> 00:25:55.799
So Ian Briggs pretty much wrote Dragonfire as we see it now, but

538
00:25:55.799 --> 00:25:59.099
with the character of Hess as the villain.

539
00:25:59.160 --> 00:26:02.519
And of course, at that time, the Nazi war criminal Hesse was

540
00:26:02.519 --> 00:26:04.319
petitioning for release.

541
00:26:04.380 --> 00:26:07.019
And so he changed the name to Kane.

542
00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:10.799
But yeah, so Kane is definitely, he is a Nazi war criminal and

543
00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:14.519
he's presented as someone who killed 1000s of people, I believe

544
00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:19.559
along with Zana in his gang and was exiled because of that.

545
00:26:19.619 --> 00:26:24.059
They really have escaped from season 3 of Blake 7, haven't they?

546
00:26:24.119 --> 00:26:25.799
Five times.

547
00:26:25.980 --> 00:26:29.519
I like that their little hats are upturned vanilla ice cream

548
00:26:29.519 --> 00:26:30.059
buckets.

549
00:26:30.119 --> 00:26:31.500
Yes, that is nice.

550
00:26:31.559 --> 00:26:32.339
Okay, she missed, yes.

551
00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:33.779
With a little frosty.

552
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:36.119
Yes, yes, just sell the Nazi walk.

553
00:26:36.180 --> 00:26:36.900
Yes, och.

554
00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:39.960
This is my point about casting.

555
00:26:40.019 --> 00:26:42.119
I don't think I think the wallet sit down is actually Edward

556
00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:42.539
Peele.

557
00:26:42.599 --> 00:26:43.500
He underplays it all.

558
00:26:43.559 --> 00:26:47.460
If they'd cast Miriam Martin, surely pretty much had the art

559
00:26:47.460 --> 00:26:48.779
Peters aren't white.

560
00:26:48.839 --> 00:26:51.599
But, you know, just something maybe a woman.

561
00:26:51.660 --> 00:26:54.359
Maybe actually make it a little bit, you know, a little bit lady

562
00:26:54.359 --> 00:26:54.900
loving.

563
00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:56.339
I think it would have been quite interesting.

564
00:26:56.400 --> 00:26:59.460
I actually quite like him because he underplays.

565
00:26:59.519 --> 00:26:59.880
Really?

566
00:26:59.880 --> 00:27:01.619
I would have liked Patricia Quinn in the park.

567
00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:03.180
That would have liked them reversed.

568
00:27:03.299 --> 00:27:03.720
Yeah.

569
00:27:03.720 --> 00:27:06.240
There's one moment where I really don't like him and that's in the

570
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:08.339
reprise of the episode 2 Cliffhanger.

571
00:27:08.339 --> 00:27:13.140
No, because the scene continues on after the episode 2

572
00:27:13.140 --> 00:27:13.740
Cliffhanger.

573
00:27:13.799 --> 00:27:15.660
So they shoot a version for the Cliffhanger and they shoot a

574
00:27:15.660 --> 00:27:16.619
version for the episode.

575
00:27:16.680 --> 00:27:20.339
And for the episode 31, he turns down the camera and says, the

576
00:27:20.339 --> 00:27:21.539
dragon fire will be mine.

577
00:27:21.539 --> 00:27:23.220
And he actually looks really pleased.

578
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:24.180
He looks really chuffed.

579
00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:26.460
I was like, no, don't look, don't look happy.

580
00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:26.940
You're evil.

581
00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:30.900
I have to ask how much of the original comedy script, which was

582
00:27:30.900 --> 00:27:32.579
written as a comedy is still in there.

583
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:34.200
I suspect that was one of the moments.

584
00:27:34.259 --> 00:27:39.000
I actually like that cliffhanger to episode two, though, because

585
00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:43.619
I'm not a big fan of the just peril.

586
00:27:43.680 --> 00:27:46.259
Are we talking about silve climbing over the railing for no good

587
00:27:46.259 --> 00:27:46.680
reason?

588
00:27:46.740 --> 00:27:48.180
That's episode one.

589
00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:49.440
We haven't touched on that, have we?

590
00:27:49.500 --> 00:27:50.579
Good reason.

591
00:27:50.640 --> 00:27:51.599
Yeah, no, it's terrible.

592
00:27:51.660 --> 00:27:52.920
I just don't understand it.

593
00:27:52.980 --> 00:27:55.259
Ian Briggs was the right pratt at all the conventions.

594
00:27:55.319 --> 00:27:55.859
Do you remember?

595
00:27:55.920 --> 00:27:57.480
He was asked this for something like 10.

596
00:27:57.720 --> 00:27:58.980
Go read the novel.

597
00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:00.960
Yeah, it's like, why?

598
00:28:02.819 --> 00:28:06.900
I think he was a bit annoyed because in the script, the doctor is

599
00:28:06.900 --> 00:28:07.980
meant to come to a dead end.

600
00:28:08.039 --> 00:28:10.559
So it's like, oh, no point in going back.

601
00:28:10.619 --> 00:28:11.279
I'll go over.

602
00:28:11.339 --> 00:28:12.960
Yeah, no, the map shows.

603
00:28:13.019 --> 00:28:14.579
Yeah, the way it shot.

604
00:28:14.579 --> 00:28:16.559
There's a big thing.

605
00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:17.579
The left or right?

606
00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:18.359
Yeah, yeah.

607
00:28:18.420 --> 00:28:18.839
Yeah.

608
00:28:18.900 --> 00:28:20.700
No, it's just poorly directed.

609
00:28:20.819 --> 00:28:24.059
But it's also a bit of Harold Lloyd silent era comedy.

610
00:28:24.180 --> 00:28:24.720
Yeah.

611
00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:26.640
Proper Harold Lloyd Buster Keaton stuff.

612
00:28:26.700 --> 00:28:29.160
And it is supposed to be a joke, isn't it, on the word

613
00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:30.000
cliffhanger?

614
00:28:30.059 --> 00:28:32.039
Like, it's supposed to literally...

615
00:28:32.099 --> 00:28:34.440
Yeah, that's certainly how it was publicised.

616
00:28:34.500 --> 00:28:36.660
And it isn't well directed.

617
00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:37.859
Like there are 2 shots.

618
00:28:37.859 --> 00:28:39.000
Yeah, cut too early.

619
00:28:39.059 --> 00:28:40.680
Like, Sylvester, Chris Clough.

620
00:28:40.740 --> 00:28:43.259
Well, he did a great job on the location stuff last week.

621
00:28:43.319 --> 00:28:43.980
Yeah, of course.

622
00:28:44.039 --> 00:28:47.339
I think he's a much better location director as many are, and

623
00:28:47.339 --> 00:28:48.180
we've seen before.

624
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:50.400
Some directors are good in sight.

625
00:28:50.460 --> 00:28:53.039
Some are good when they're let outside to play.

626
00:28:53.099 --> 00:28:54.539
I think we can see the difference here.

627
00:28:54.599 --> 00:28:55.440
Yeah.

628
00:28:55.440 --> 00:28:59.640
I quite like the ice cave set design.

629
00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:01.740
It's not bad for the money, is it?

630
00:29:01.799 --> 00:29:07.440
Yeah, and of course, again, it's exactly how they did 20 cinema.

631
00:29:07.500 --> 00:29:08.160
It is.

632
00:29:08.220 --> 00:29:08.819
Yeah, yeah.

633
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:09.599
I'll show you pictures.

634
00:29:09.660 --> 00:29:11.160
It's because it's done with conviction.

635
00:29:11.220 --> 00:29:14.400
Instead of, you know, just giving us the brown corridors of

636
00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:15.539
varrel.

637
00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:20.160
Oh, and must we go down another of your brown...

638
00:29:20.339 --> 00:29:24.240
Or the palate crates of turbinus, you know?

639
00:29:24.299 --> 00:29:29.279
But it's also an early indication of how in tune with each other.

640
00:29:29.339 --> 00:29:32.640
Sylvester and Sophie are, because if you look at the scenes with

641
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:35.339
Sylvester and Sophie together, they're the only 2 sliding on the

642
00:29:35.339 --> 00:29:35.640
ice.

643
00:29:35.700 --> 00:29:37.740
Bonnie and... putting any effort in.

644
00:29:37.799 --> 00:29:40.619
Yes, Donny and Tony just kind of clump around as normal.

645
00:29:40.680 --> 00:29:45.180
And the way Sophie tells it is, apparently, once they were on the

646
00:29:45.180 --> 00:29:45.480
set.

647
00:29:45.539 --> 00:29:48.539
So after rehearsals, Silv turned to everyone and said, hey

648
00:29:48.539 --> 00:29:49.799
wouldn't it be great if we did this?

649
00:29:49.859 --> 00:29:51.660
And he and Sophie were the only ones who did.

650
00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:56.700
And so later told Sophie, you know, that's when I knew you and I

651
00:29:56.700 --> 00:29:57.839
were going to get on just fine.

652
00:29:58.319 --> 00:30:02.279
It is such a shame that Bonnie Langford decided she didn't want to

653
00:30:02.279 --> 00:30:04.319
stay on because they did offer her another year.

654
00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:09.839
Because, you know, JNT is a little bit similar to Stephen Moffatt

655
00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:12.059
in that way of if his actors are happy to stay on.

656
00:30:12.119 --> 00:30:13.619
He's happy to keep them on in most cases.

657
00:30:13.799 --> 00:30:17.519
Well, Bonnie was not only his 1st choice.

658
00:30:17.640 --> 00:30:18.779
He wrote the character.

659
00:30:18.839 --> 00:30:20.519
Yeah, that's right. for her.

660
00:30:20.579 --> 00:30:21.299
Yeah.

661
00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:27.480
But they also knew from a very early scripting stage that she

662
00:30:27.480 --> 00:30:30.839
probably wasn't going to stay on afterwards, which is why we get

663
00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:31.740
Ray.

664
00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:35.220
Yeah, and out.

665
00:30:35.940 --> 00:30:38.519
Ace's original name was Alf.

666
00:30:38.579 --> 00:30:41.400
Still to be still to be a female character, essentially the same.

667
00:30:41.400 --> 00:30:45.779
Because, yeah, Ian Briggs, I think, taught drama.

668
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:49.380
As a sort of afternoon club for kids, and he based the character

669
00:30:49.380 --> 00:30:52.380
of Ace on these 3 girls.

670
00:30:53.339 --> 00:30:55.259
One of whom was it, apparently, a street child.

671
00:30:55.380 --> 00:30:59.039
I don't see how she can be living on the street and going to drama

672
00:30:59.039 --> 00:30:59.640
school, but anyway.

673
00:30:59.700 --> 00:31:01.740
I think it was sort of a community-based school.

674
00:31:01.799 --> 00:31:04.680
So occasionally there were kids who, okay, maybe they didn't pay

675
00:31:04.680 --> 00:31:06.480
their fees, but, yeah.

676
00:31:06.539 --> 00:31:07.740
But she's too posh for that.

677
00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:08.940
She's middle class.

678
00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:11.460
She's not playing at middle class.

679
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:18.000
It is the grand Doctor Who tradition of an actress playing vastly

680
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:21.660
younger and less posh.

681
00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:23.880
But, you know, I do have to wonder if that could be easily

682
00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:27.359
reckoned by, you know, we hear about her mum a lot in the show.

683
00:31:27.420 --> 00:31:28.500
We don't hear a lot about her dad.

684
00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:32.819
So if one was a bit posh and one was, you know, born in pair of

685
00:31:32.819 --> 00:31:34.920
vales, that could definitely explain it.

686
00:31:34.980 --> 00:31:36.960
That's what Dodo's excuse was.

687
00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:40.740
We're getting quite a bit of presaging of dodo.

688
00:31:40.859 --> 00:31:43.859
I think I think Dodo just had a cold and that changed her larynx

689
00:31:43.859 --> 00:31:44.579
or something, didn't it?

690
00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:46.380
No, the doctor told her to cut it out.

691
00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:47.579
That's right.

692
00:31:48.660 --> 00:31:50.819
Here's a book on diction.

693
00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:52.380
Sorry, I can give you the face with it.

694
00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:52.859
Yeah.

695
00:31:53.400 --> 00:31:57.720
She is possibly a bit too posh for the character as written, but

696
00:31:57.720 --> 00:32:00.180
aside from that, I think she plays it as well as humanly

697
00:32:00.180 --> 00:32:00.480
possible.

698
00:32:00.539 --> 00:32:03.960
She never quite convinces me as 16, but she does convince me as

699
00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:04.200
18.

700
00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:07.319
There were over a 100 actresses going for this part.

701
00:32:07.380 --> 00:32:09.539
And they interviewed all of them.

702
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:10.619
Yeah.

703
00:32:10.680 --> 00:32:13.319
So Doctor Who is still incredibly popular with the acting

704
00:32:13.319 --> 00:32:13.859
fraternity.

705
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:14.460
Oh, yeah.

706
00:32:14.519 --> 00:32:16.980
And of course, the ratings have been going up since the beginning

707
00:32:16.980 --> 00:32:17.640
of the season.

708
00:32:17.700 --> 00:32:20.519
They're in the midfives now. pretty good.

709
00:32:20.579 --> 00:32:23.460
Yeah, you know, considering. and considering what they're up

710
00:32:23.460 --> 00:32:23.700
against.

711
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:26.279
Wednesday night, Coronation Street hardly any adverts.

712
00:32:26.339 --> 00:32:29.519
We said a few weeks ago on the column retrospective.

713
00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:34.619
Is this just the BBC bringing it back with an excuse to run it

714
00:32:34.619 --> 00:32:35.940
into the ground so they can kill it off.

715
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:38.759
They're not expecting it to do well, but it is.

716
00:32:38.819 --> 00:32:42.480
But Grade actually said Heath, because this is how little Grade

717
00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:43.200
understood the show.

718
00:32:43.259 --> 00:32:45.779
He thought that they were completely disparate and different

719
00:32:45.779 --> 00:32:46.440
audiences.

720
00:32:46.500 --> 00:32:49.500
But of course, it's not the case because the kids ended up going

721
00:32:49.500 --> 00:32:52.619
into their room while Mum and Gran watched Corey and writing

722
00:32:52.619 --> 00:32:58.319
smarmy, snotty, snippy letters to DWB and whoever else.

723
00:32:58.380 --> 00:33:00.299
Do you remember there's a scene...

724
00:33:00.359 --> 00:33:02.220
And now a lot of them were called Chris Chibles.

725
00:33:02.279 --> 00:33:06.000
Do you remember there's a scene in Queer as Folk, where Vince

726
00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:12.539
meets a young woman, and they talk about Doctor Who, and he says

727
00:33:12.539 --> 00:33:16.140
that he's a huge fan of Doctor Who, and she doesn't watch it

728
00:33:16.140 --> 00:33:20.819
anymore since they put it up against Coronation Street, and both

729
00:33:20.819 --> 00:33:25.680
of them commiserate about that because Vince, as a gay Doctor Who

730
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:28.740
fan, is, of course, exactly someone who would have watched

731
00:33:28.740 --> 00:33:30.240
Coronation Street as well.

732
00:33:30.299 --> 00:33:35.819
And there is, of course, that overlap, but the show itself has

733
00:33:35.819 --> 00:33:39.960
been styling itself as something that doesn't have an overlap.

734
00:33:40.019 --> 00:33:45.720
It's designed for introverted 14 year olds who think they're

735
00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:49.319
clever and have no friends and have a copy of the Doctor Who

736
00:33:49.319 --> 00:33:49.980
Monster book.

737
00:33:50.039 --> 00:33:55.019
And now it's emerged blinking from that child's bedroom into the

738
00:33:55.019 --> 00:33:57.299
sunlight and is creating things.

739
00:33:57.359 --> 00:33:59.400
Shimmerong grub child.

740
00:33:59.460 --> 00:34:01.559
No wonder Bonnie's screaming.

741
00:34:01.619 --> 00:34:05.400
It's creating things like Delta and the Bannerman and Dragon Fire

742
00:34:05.400 --> 00:34:09.300
and Paradise Towers that increasingly normal people can sit down

743
00:34:09.300 --> 00:34:13.320
to watch without being able to tell the different types of

744
00:34:13.320 --> 00:34:14.699
cybermen apart.

745
00:34:14.760 --> 00:34:16.619
That's the point, isn't it?

746
00:34:16.739 --> 00:34:20.039
This belongs not so much to Doctor Who, but very much to the era

747
00:34:20.039 --> 00:34:21.119
it's made on.

748
00:34:21.179 --> 00:34:22.619
We touched on it earlier.

749
00:34:22.679 --> 00:34:25.260
This is the year that Black Adder 2 came out.

750
00:34:25.320 --> 00:34:29.880
This is a whole generation that's just seen the young ones. that

751
00:34:29.880 --> 00:34:34.860
grew up with Python that gets self-referential TV that makes fun

752
00:34:34.860 --> 00:34:36.840
of itself and other things within it.

753
00:34:36.900 --> 00:34:38.639
It's really of the youth moment.

754
00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:40.260
Yeah.

755
00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:43.980
Whereas it allowed itself to stall, I think, with its obsession

756
00:34:43.980 --> 00:34:44.579
with the past.

757
00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:48.780
There's no mention of Ian Levine this season at all, have we?

758
00:34:48.840 --> 00:34:49.800
We've not mentioned him once.

759
00:34:49.860 --> 00:34:50.699
There's a reason for that.

760
00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:55.320
I, yeah, I don't think he was really involved with the production

761
00:34:55.320 --> 00:34:56.880
card. made sure of that.

762
00:34:56.940 --> 00:34:57.360
Yeah.

763
00:34:57.420 --> 00:35:00.840
And I think JNT was really happy to see all of that lot go.

764
00:35:00.900 --> 00:35:04.440
I thought that he was so unhappy about the casting of Bonnie

765
00:35:04.440 --> 00:35:05.760
that...

766
00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:07.079
Yeah, he wasn't happy about that.

767
00:35:07.139 --> 00:35:09.179
People will all say they're the same reasons and I don't know that

768
00:35:09.179 --> 00:35:10.139
I disagree with them, actually.

769
00:35:10.199 --> 00:35:11.579
But, yeah.

770
00:35:11.639 --> 00:35:14.760
No, it was it was just all new clean sheet.

771
00:35:14.820 --> 00:35:17.820
JNT had wanted to move on, decided he was moving on.

772
00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:21.360
Shocked and surprised, he thought, and he thought, you know, I'll

773
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:23.159
never get another job producing the BBC.

774
00:35:23.219 --> 00:35:28.019
I can't just have one job on my CV and it being this and it being

775
00:35:28.019 --> 00:35:31.139
a failure, he could see the death and thought, okay, how am I

776
00:35:31.139 --> 00:35:32.340
going to make money pantos?

777
00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:35.219
Yeah, so he was actually going into looking at other ways of

778
00:35:35.219 --> 00:35:37.860
making a business for himself later on.

779
00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:41.699
And he was happy, I think, just to sit back and do his job that he

780
00:35:41.699 --> 00:35:43.440
does best, which is counting the beans.

781
00:35:43.800 --> 00:35:49.139
Yeah, and I think it kind of proves that what JNT really needed

782
00:35:49.139 --> 00:35:53.219
was someone, Christopher H.

783
00:35:53.219 --> 00:35:55.500
Bidmade, or in this case, Andrew Cartmel.

784
00:35:55.559 --> 00:35:56.940
Yeah, someone...

785
00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:01.679
Yeah, someone who gently says to him, no, I'll handle the story. do

786
00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:02.159
this.

787
00:36:02.219 --> 00:36:07.920
So this is the case where I'm going to criticise JNT over Eric

788
00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:08.639
Saywood.

789
00:36:08.699 --> 00:36:10.800
I find it very hard to believe that Eric Saywood wouldn't have

790
00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:13.559
said that to him at one point, but there must have been something

791
00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:19.380
in their relationship that made Eric Saywood not be able to stand

792
00:36:19.380 --> 00:36:21.179
up to John.

793
00:36:21.239 --> 00:36:23.219
And he shouldn't have to, as the script editor.

794
00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:25.320
Eric Saywood should just be able to say, no script is my

795
00:36:25.320 --> 00:36:25.980
responsibility.

796
00:36:26.039 --> 00:36:27.300
Pull your nose out, John.

797
00:36:27.360 --> 00:36:30.360
And I wonder if John being so tied with it, he actually enjoyed

798
00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:31.739
just going back to counting the beans.

799
00:36:31.860 --> 00:36:33.659
I think we've also not having to be created.

800
00:36:33.719 --> 00:36:34.860
We're not suspicious, haven't we?

801
00:36:34.860 --> 00:36:35.699
Or indeed feud.

802
00:36:35.820 --> 00:36:37.679
We know how that relationship would have played out.

803
00:36:37.739 --> 00:36:38.880
Ooh.

804
00:36:38.940 --> 00:36:43.019
Yeah, because, I mean, there is this thing where Seward complains

805
00:36:43.019 --> 00:36:45.780
about the difficulty of getting people who can write for Doctor

806
00:36:45.780 --> 00:36:46.380
Who.

807
00:36:46.440 --> 00:36:49.559
And of course, they're increasing numbers of people who won't come

808
00:36:49.559 --> 00:36:51.900
back and write for the program.

809
00:36:51.960 --> 00:36:55.920
And in comes Andrew Cartmel and manages to bring with him a whole

810
00:36:55.920 --> 00:36:58.019
heap of people who've never written for the...

811
00:36:58.139 --> 00:37:00.719
There are people he met at writing schools.

812
00:37:00.780 --> 00:37:03.360
Yeah, yeah, at the BBC writer's workshop.

813
00:37:03.420 --> 00:37:04.019
Yeah, exactly.

814
00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:07.860
Like, Pip and Jane Baker are the only people who write for the

815
00:37:07.860 --> 00:37:09.840
Sylvester McCoy era who have written for the show before.

816
00:37:09.960 --> 00:37:13.320
And they were just kind of commissioned already.

817
00:37:13.320 --> 00:37:14.820
Oh, yeah, already.

818
00:37:14.820 --> 00:37:17.880
Yeah, they were commissioned because, as you said, earlier, Richard

819
00:37:17.880 --> 00:37:19.739
JNT had about 2 months.

820
00:37:19.800 --> 00:37:21.480
He turns to the people he knows.

821
00:37:21.539 --> 00:37:25.500
He already had one in the pipeline just in case because he's a

822
00:37:25.500 --> 00:37:29.099
shrewd sly player and top marks to him.

823
00:37:29.159 --> 00:37:31.500
Yeah, and Pip and Jane are reliable.

824
00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:34.139
Like they can produce a script.

825
00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:35.880
We saw what Time Incorporated was like.

826
00:37:35.940 --> 00:37:38.940
I think we have to have a bit of a reappraisal for P and Jane.

827
00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:42.119
Well, that's what so many of our listeners have said, like, there's

828
00:37:42.119 --> 00:37:44.519
actually a comment on the website from someone called Ben, I

829
00:37:44.519 --> 00:37:47.039
believe, who says, wow, you know, I'd always heard of this script

830
00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:49.260
and I assumed it must be better than what we've got, but I have to

831
00:37:49.260 --> 00:37:50.880
apologise to Pip and Jane Baker.

832
00:37:51.480 --> 00:37:54.599
And thank you for your comment, friend of the podcast, Ben

833
00:37:54.599 --> 00:37:55.860
because...

834
00:37:55.920 --> 00:37:57.300
No, that will.

835
00:37:57.300 --> 00:37:58.440
It's a terrible script.

836
00:37:58.500 --> 00:38:00.480
It's extraordinary.

837
00:38:00.539 --> 00:38:04.980
Like Andrew Cartmel just seems to come in and kind of go, oh, well

838
00:38:04.980 --> 00:38:05.219
hold on.

839
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:06.179
I've got all these new people.

840
00:38:06.239 --> 00:38:09.659
And something else I noticed when I was reading up on this season

841
00:38:09.659 --> 00:38:13.920
is that there's all these references. especially with Delta and

842
00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:17.159
the Bannermen and this story of Cartmel going to the writers

843
00:38:17.159 --> 00:38:20.340
houses or flats and writing the script with them.

844
00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:21.300
Oh brilliant.

845
00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:25.139
And I can't confidently say that Eric Sayward didn't do that.

846
00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:28.019
But whenever we hear about Eric Saywood...

847
00:38:28.079 --> 00:38:31.139
But whenever we hear about Eric Saywood saying the script was

848
00:38:31.139 --> 00:38:33.719
having a problem or the script didn't come in.

849
00:38:33.780 --> 00:38:35.639
Like he's always talking about how he's in the office.

850
00:38:35.699 --> 00:38:36.840
Yes, yes.

851
00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:40.079
And I kind of think, okay, maybe it's not your job to go to the

852
00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:44.699
writer, but you've also got to consider that writing is or can be

853
00:38:44.699 --> 00:38:46.980
a very lonely job.

854
00:38:47.099 --> 00:38:52.260
So writers sometimes like working collaboratively.

855
00:38:52.320 --> 00:38:56.579
Nigel Fairs, writer, musician, actor, does Big Finish.

856
00:38:56.639 --> 00:38:58.860
Bon vivant, bon vivant.

857
00:38:58.920 --> 00:39:00.300
Lovely chat, very famous.

858
00:39:00.360 --> 00:39:01.739
Man, man, man, man about town.

859
00:39:01.800 --> 00:39:03.780
Friend of the podcast, probably.

860
00:39:03.900 --> 00:39:10.619
But once or twice a year, he runs a writer's retreat for writers

861
00:39:10.619 --> 00:39:11.340
who are friends of his.

862
00:39:11.400 --> 00:39:13.980
They hire a castle during the off-season and go up there and write

863
00:39:13.980 --> 00:39:14.460
for 5 days.

864
00:39:14.519 --> 00:39:17.400
He did actually invite me to one once.

865
00:39:17.460 --> 00:39:22.079
But it was just, but it was after I would have already been coming

866
00:39:22.079 --> 00:39:22.800
back to Australia.

867
00:39:22.860 --> 00:39:23.880
So that was nice.

868
00:39:23.940 --> 00:39:25.559
But, you know, he and Joe Lids to go on them.

869
00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:28.260
Louise Jameson goes with them, that kind of thing, and they just

870
00:39:28.260 --> 00:39:29.340
write for 5 days.

871
00:39:29.519 --> 00:39:34.260
And that's the thing, writing for a TV series is a collaborative

872
00:39:34.260 --> 00:39:34.679
process.

873
00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:37.800
You know, when we hear about the writers for the new series.

874
00:39:38.039 --> 00:39:44.699
Like the 1st season, Rob Shearman, Mark Gators, Paul Cornell, all

875
00:39:44.699 --> 00:39:47.760
talk about and Stephen Moffat, yes, all talk about how they went

876
00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:50.699
out to a pub after Russell 1st briefed them and said, what the

877
00:39:50.699 --> 00:39:51.539
hell are we going to do?

878
00:39:51.539 --> 00:39:56.639
And think Sherlock was born that way by the trade.

879
00:39:56.639 --> 00:39:57.300
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

880
00:39:57.300 --> 00:39:58.079
To and from Carter.

881
00:39:58.139 --> 00:40:00.300
You know, and they help each other hash out their stories.

882
00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:04.980
I can't readily think of examples now, but...

883
00:40:05.039 --> 00:40:10.199
I think for season 26, either Ben Aronovich or Ian Briggs mentions

884
00:40:10.199 --> 00:40:14.280
how the other helped them break the story for either battlefield

885
00:40:14.280 --> 00:40:15.659
or curse of Fenrich.

886
00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:17.519
We'll get more to that next season, won't we?

887
00:40:17.820 --> 00:40:20.219
Yeah, it becomes a collaborative process.

888
00:40:20.280 --> 00:40:24.599
Yes, it does. where it didn't sound like it was ever that under

889
00:40:24.599 --> 00:40:27.780
Christopher Hamilton, they'd made or Eric Saywood.

890
00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:31.380
It certainly was under sort of Graham Williams and Douglas.

891
00:40:31.440 --> 00:40:33.539
I was going to say, it's going back to more your traditional rep

892
00:40:33.539 --> 00:40:38.460
theatre. and how that runs and is produced. and in fact, how

893
00:40:38.460 --> 00:40:41.639
Doctor Who was in those good old days.

894
00:40:41.760 --> 00:40:43.980
Yeah, well, I think in the Pertu era, you have a bunch of people

895
00:40:43.980 --> 00:40:45.480
who will write something every year.

896
00:40:45.780 --> 00:40:49.320
Without choice, whether you want to or not.

897
00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:51.179
Bob Baker and Dave Martin.

898
00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:54.539
But what's happening?

899
00:40:54.659 --> 00:40:55.019
Barry?

900
00:40:55.079 --> 00:40:57.059
Oh, if I must, I'll buy one then.

901
00:40:57.119 --> 00:40:58.440
Who might be this week?

902
00:40:58.500 --> 00:41:00.599
Does it have to be about Buddhism?

903
00:41:00.659 --> 00:41:01.139
Oh, fine.

904
00:41:01.199 --> 00:41:03.780
I actually really love berry lit story.

905
00:41:03.840 --> 00:41:06.719
So I'm glad he was, you know, forced to do what he actually wanted

906
00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:07.500
to do every year.

907
00:41:07.559 --> 00:41:11.340
But I think that what's ended up happening is that all of those

908
00:41:11.340 --> 00:41:15.780
people who would have formed that group are alienated and dead.

909
00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:17.639
But mostly alienated.

910
00:41:17.699 --> 00:41:22.320
And so it takes someone new with new contacts and new ideas to

911
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:24.539
come in and refresh the program.

912
00:41:24.599 --> 00:41:27.960
And look, I mean, this season has been uneven.

913
00:41:28.019 --> 00:41:30.420
There are people who really, genuinely dislike it.

914
00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:34.500
But I just think it's such a relief.

915
00:41:34.559 --> 00:41:36.360
It has energy.

916
00:41:36.420 --> 00:41:38.699
It has vivacity.

917
00:41:38.760 --> 00:41:41.340
It has, I mean, it has similes.

918
00:41:41.460 --> 00:41:44.159
It's all sorts of adjectives.

919
00:41:44.699 --> 00:41:47.579
It has strike nouns.

920
00:41:47.639 --> 00:41:50.940
It has wonderful moments that are perhaps sometimes a bit too on

921
00:41:50.940 --> 00:41:54.239
the nose that restate the purpose of the character of the doctor

922
00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:56.880
and the purpose of the companion, like in this story where Glitz

923
00:41:56.880 --> 00:42:00.300
tries to shoot the dragon and the doctor rips the gun out of his

924
00:42:00.300 --> 00:42:01.860
hand and says we have no right to kill.

925
00:42:01.920 --> 00:42:05.820
It's well performed, but it's also restating who the doctor is.

926
00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:09.840
And of course, Sylvester famously said, my doctor will not use a

927
00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:10.139
gun.

928
00:42:10.199 --> 00:42:11.460
My doctor will not use a weapon.

929
00:42:11.519 --> 00:42:13.500
And it wasn't a response to Colin because he hadn't watched what

930
00:42:13.500 --> 00:42:14.159
Colin had done.

931
00:42:14.219 --> 00:42:17.880
Some people have taken it as, yeah, it's, oh, that's a direct

932
00:42:17.880 --> 00:42:19.559
criticism of Attack of the Cybermen.

933
00:42:19.619 --> 00:42:20.519
It's like, actually, no.

934
00:42:20.579 --> 00:42:23.579
It's Sylvester reading in the script for remembrance of the Daleks

935
00:42:23.579 --> 00:42:25.980
I think, was the 1st one that he's going to pick up a gun.

936
00:42:26.099 --> 00:42:28.079
And he just says, no, no, no, I'm not going to pick up a gun.

937
00:42:28.139 --> 00:42:28.920
She can pick up a gun.

938
00:42:28.980 --> 00:42:31.079
The human can pick up a gun, but the time law doesn't.

939
00:42:31.139 --> 00:42:34.019
You know, Cartmel said we want to get back to the mystery of the

940
00:42:34.019 --> 00:42:37.800
program, but also it's just saying, okay, if we get back to the

941
00:42:37.800 --> 00:42:40.559
mystery and we're not going to talk about how he's a timelord from

942
00:42:40.559 --> 00:42:43.079
the planet galaframe, the constellation of Custurbus, of the

943
00:42:43.079 --> 00:42:46.139
Pridonian house, if we're not going to talk about that, who is

944
00:42:46.139 --> 00:42:46.619
this person?

945
00:42:46.679 --> 00:42:50.340
Right, he comes in, he helps out, he tries to look for a

946
00:42:50.340 --> 00:42:53.400
nonviolent solution and he tries to make people lives better.

947
00:42:53.460 --> 00:42:55.440
Go. That's your starting point writers.

948
00:42:55.500 --> 00:42:59.460
And people have been talking about with Chris Chipnell taking over

949
00:42:59.460 --> 00:42:59.880
the show.

950
00:42:59.940 --> 00:43:03.900
There have been suggestions that he is going to go for a US

951
00:43:03.900 --> 00:43:05.039
writer's room approach.

952
00:43:05.099 --> 00:43:06.900
And I'm not sure where that came from in the 1st place.

953
00:43:06.960 --> 00:43:08.820
It might be the broadchurches written like that.

954
00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:09.420
I'm not sure.

955
00:43:09.480 --> 00:43:13.139
But he said, look, I'm not dismissing it.

956
00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:14.400
I am not even thinking about it at the moment.

957
00:43:14.460 --> 00:43:15.900
I'm finishing Broadchurch.

958
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:19.139
And I'm kind of like, well, if collaborative writing is what gives

959
00:43:19.139 --> 00:43:22.079
us the Sylvester McCoy era, and it's what gave us Christopher

960
00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:23.519
Eccleston season.

961
00:43:23.639 --> 00:43:26.159
And it's something Doctor Who hasn't officially done before.

962
00:43:26.340 --> 00:43:28.320
Maybe it's a good idea.

963
00:43:28.380 --> 00:43:30.480
Maybe it can be a good idea.

964
00:43:31.199 --> 00:43:35.219
One thing we have briefly mentioned, but not really touched upon

965
00:43:35.219 --> 00:43:36.780
is Tony Selby's back.

966
00:43:39.059 --> 00:43:41.099
Law of diminishing returns.

967
00:43:41.159 --> 00:43:43.440
He's not as interesting this time around.

968
00:43:43.500 --> 00:43:47.280
Yeah, he's a bit cuddly, even though he's just sold a bunch of

969
00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:47.460
people.

970
00:43:48.119 --> 00:43:51.000
I think it was another character.

971
00:43:51.960 --> 00:43:52.619
Yeah, Razorback.

972
00:43:52.679 --> 00:43:53.159
Right.

973
00:43:53.219 --> 00:43:58.199
And it was actually Andrew Cartmel, who had watched Colin's stuff

974
00:43:58.199 --> 00:44:02.099
I believe, who said, well, we had a similar character last year.

975
00:44:02.159 --> 00:44:04.440
Let's see if he's available just for a bit of follow-through.

976
00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:08.280
So, yeah, it was Andrew Cartman, who brought back Glitz.

977
00:44:08.340 --> 00:44:14.400
I think it works in the sense that there is something nice about

978
00:44:14.400 --> 00:44:15.599
the ensemble again.

979
00:44:15.659 --> 00:44:19.199
We talked last week about building up an ensemble indulgent in the

980
00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:19.739
Bannerman.

981
00:44:19.800 --> 00:44:24.000
Here we have someone familiar who, you know, essentially was a bit

982
00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:27.239
cuddly by the time he appeared at the end of trial of a time lord

983
00:44:27.239 --> 00:44:27.599
anyway.

984
00:44:27.659 --> 00:44:31.440
Yeah, bit largely sort of defanged by then.

985
00:44:31.500 --> 00:44:34.679
And so that is kind of nice.

986
00:44:34.739 --> 00:44:38.579
I do think that he works terribly well in this story.

987
00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:40.980
Yeah, I think he's lovely with Silv.

988
00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:43.679
You know, I still think his most effective appearance is his 1st

989
00:44:43.679 --> 00:44:47.400
one, of course, but he is absolutely lovely with Silv, and they're

990
00:44:47.400 --> 00:44:50.400
traipsing around the ice caves, and yeah, he's the Cowardly Lion.

991
00:44:50.519 --> 00:44:53.400
So, you know, if we're going with the Wizard of Oz thing, the

992
00:44:53.400 --> 00:44:57.480
doctor's the scarecrow, glitz is the cow, which I suppose leaves

993
00:44:57.480 --> 00:44:58.440
Mell as the tin man.

994
00:44:58.500 --> 00:45:01.920
So maybe this metaphor doesn't work as well. as well as I

995
00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:02.159
thought.

996
00:45:03.059 --> 00:45:03.840
She's glitter.

997
00:45:03.960 --> 00:45:05.099
Actually yes, that works even better.

998
00:45:05.159 --> 00:45:07.260
Kane's the tin man. doesn't have a heart.

999
00:45:07.380 --> 00:45:11.460
They make a really lovely force amid the 1st episode where Ace is

1000
00:45:11.460 --> 00:45:13.559
saying, you don't want to believe nothing he says, Professor.

1001
00:45:13.619 --> 00:45:16.920
Sorry, you don't want to believe nothing he says, professor, apples

1002
00:45:16.920 --> 00:45:18.179
and pears, apples and pears.

1003
00:45:18.840 --> 00:45:22.260
And then, you know, the doctor and glitz go off together.

1004
00:45:22.619 --> 00:45:26.579
And Melanese go off and have their own adventure together because

1005
00:45:26.579 --> 00:45:29.519
contrary to what Glitz says, girls just want to have an adventure

1006
00:45:29.519 --> 00:45:29.820
too.

1007
00:45:29.880 --> 00:45:34.619
And that's really effect, like, I love the end of episode one, not

1008
00:45:34.619 --> 00:45:37.980
so much the silve hanging off the umbrella thing, but the

1009
00:45:37.980 --> 00:45:40.559
cliffhanger with Melanese where he says, there's no such thing as

1010
00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:41.280
a dragon.

1011
00:45:41.340 --> 00:45:43.980
So you just know that around the corner is going to come the

1012
00:45:43.980 --> 00:45:44.519
dragon.

1013
00:45:44.519 --> 00:45:46.679
And Mel, of course, does her scream.

1014
00:45:46.679 --> 00:45:50.340
And Ace is just like, what the is happening?

1015
00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:54.179
And it just tells you everything you need to know about those 2

1016
00:45:54.179 --> 00:45:56.760
characters. like Ace encountering danger doesn't scream.

1017
00:45:56.820 --> 00:45:57.539
She just goes, what?

1018
00:45:58.139 --> 00:46:00.420
No, that's not real.

1019
00:46:00.480 --> 00:46:03.239
And then she's the one who realises hold on, those are lasers.

1020
00:46:03.300 --> 00:46:05.699
Yeah, it's really resourceful.

1021
00:46:05.760 --> 00:46:08.940
And then they come back together again in the ice caves and you

1022
00:46:08.940 --> 00:46:11.400
have that hilarious ice spy scene.

1023
00:46:11.460 --> 00:46:13.019
I really like it.

1024
00:46:13.139 --> 00:46:17.699
I spy with my little eye something beginning with I. Your turn.

1025
00:46:20.340 --> 00:46:24.780
Mel explains that the tarnus is transcendentally dimensional, which

1026
00:46:24.780 --> 00:46:26.219
still works grammatically.

1027
00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:31.019
But she wasn't paying attention when it was explained to her.

1028
00:46:31.619 --> 00:46:32.820
She really wasn't.

1029
00:46:32.880 --> 00:46:35.820
But yeah, it shows how infectious the doctor is because now she's

1030
00:46:35.820 --> 00:46:36.420
malapropping.

1031
00:46:36.840 --> 00:46:38.940
Yeah, so she is.

1032
00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:41.460
We forgot to mention last week, of course, the question mark

1033
00:46:41.460 --> 00:46:42.599
umbrella is now with us.

1034
00:46:42.659 --> 00:46:44.820
Yes, it is, but that's okay.

1035
00:46:44.880 --> 00:46:45.780
Let's not mention.

1036
00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:50.699
No, it's a postmodernist trope. suppose. umbrelled that in the 1st

1037
00:46:50.699 --> 00:46:51.300
episode.

1038
00:46:51.360 --> 00:46:51.900
Yes.

1039
00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:55.559
As Silv points out, you know, it's a little bit subtler than the

1040
00:46:55.559 --> 00:46:56.280
pullover.

1041
00:46:56.340 --> 00:46:58.860
Mind you, I didn't mind the pullover, because the pullover kind of

1042
00:46:58.860 --> 00:47:01.380
is, until you look at it properly, you don't realise it's question

1043
00:47:01.380 --> 00:47:04.199
marks, it's just your brain just processes it as a pattern, and

1044
00:47:04.199 --> 00:47:05.460
then you see the question marks.

1045
00:47:05.519 --> 00:47:07.679
They're still silly, aren't they?

1046
00:47:07.739 --> 00:47:10.860
I mean, the costume's an improvement, but, you know.

1047
00:47:11.099 --> 00:47:17.099
Okay, I think we need to talk about the worst instance of Andrew

1048
00:47:17.099 --> 00:47:22.320
Hodson's contract release, which is the departure of Mel.

1049
00:47:22.380 --> 00:47:23.039
Yes.

1050
00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:27.480
So this scene is, in fact, the scene that we have mentioned, I

1051
00:47:27.480 --> 00:47:28.800
think, over the last few weeks.

1052
00:47:28.860 --> 00:47:33.719
It's the scene that was written for the audition of Sylvester

1053
00:47:33.719 --> 00:47:36.960
McCoy, by Janet Field, by Janet Field.

1054
00:47:37.019 --> 00:47:38.940
She wrote it to decide everything.

1055
00:47:39.659 --> 00:47:41.760
Still to this day.

1056
00:47:41.820 --> 00:47:44.400
And it is inexplicable, isn't it?

1057
00:47:44.460 --> 00:47:46.739
It is really very strange indeed.

1058
00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:49.559
Yeah, like why is she going off with glitz?

1059
00:47:49.619 --> 00:47:50.699
I don't really.

1060
00:47:50.760 --> 00:47:53.820
And it's hard to understand why you can't...

1061
00:47:53.880 --> 00:47:57.239
Well, I mean, the TARDIS can travel instantaneously, and it's the

1062
00:47:57.239 --> 00:47:58.980
sort of thing that we do all the time now.

1063
00:47:59.039 --> 00:48:03.300
Think about the end of the god complex where that set in a weird

1064
00:48:03.300 --> 00:48:09.059
holodeck spaceship that looks like an 80s hotel, but we have time

1065
00:48:09.059 --> 00:48:12.420
to shoot a scene in the London street at the end where the doctor

1066
00:48:12.420 --> 00:48:15.960
drops Amy and Rory off. it would have just been very easy to do

1067
00:48:15.960 --> 00:48:16.260
that.

1068
00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:18.900
It is, it's stupid.

1069
00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:24.059
And it is, well, look, I mean, Mel's the 2nd last companion in the

1070
00:48:24.059 --> 00:48:25.019
classic series.

1071
00:48:25.079 --> 00:48:28.079
This is the last companion departure that the classic series

1072
00:48:28.079 --> 00:48:28.800
does.

1073
00:48:28.860 --> 00:48:30.780
It's terrible.

1074
00:48:30.840 --> 00:48:34.619
But think about the scene where the doctor 1st meets Mel.

1075
00:48:34.679 --> 00:48:36.300
Actually, we don't see that.

1076
00:48:36.360 --> 00:48:37.500
Do you know what I mean?

1077
00:48:37.559 --> 00:48:40.559
So there's no 1st scene.

1078
00:48:40.619 --> 00:48:42.300
There's no last scene.

1079
00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:46.320
This has really just been an instance of let's get Bonnie in to

1080
00:48:46.320 --> 00:48:48.360
play the Doctor Who girl for a few episodes.

1081
00:48:48.480 --> 00:48:52.260
We don't really care about the character.

1082
00:48:52.380 --> 00:48:53.460
Yeah.

1083
00:48:53.519 --> 00:48:56.219
And it's really unfortunate when you consider there were a couple

1084
00:48:56.219 --> 00:49:01.500
of Tartar scenes filmed during Dragonfire for use in Delta and the

1085
00:49:01.500 --> 00:49:02.039
Bannermen.

1086
00:49:02.099 --> 00:49:04.920
Only one makes it into the episode after editing.

1087
00:49:04.920 --> 00:49:08.519
But, yeah, it's a shame that they couldn't have put up a sign for

1088
00:49:08.519 --> 00:49:12.719
peas potage next to one of those Welsh roads and dumb Mel's

1089
00:49:12.719 --> 00:49:16.440
leaving scene on location in Delta and the Bannermen, because you

1090
00:49:16.440 --> 00:49:18.960
could still then have the doctor wander back into the TARDIS and

1091
00:49:18.960 --> 00:49:21.119
there's ace and aces, and I suppose you've taken me back to

1092
00:49:21.119 --> 00:49:23.880
Perivale then, and then we get the bit of, well, you know, we

1093
00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:25.079
could go back to Perivale.

1094
00:49:25.139 --> 00:49:30.360
It feels mean-spirited to do it because also how?

1095
00:49:30.420 --> 00:49:33.360
Unless the Nosferado has time abilities.

1096
00:49:33.420 --> 00:49:34.260
Yeah, yeah.

1097
00:49:34.380 --> 00:49:36.300
She's never gonna get home, apparently.

1098
00:49:36.360 --> 00:49:38.820
We don't know what period this is, but...

1099
00:49:38.820 --> 00:49:40.440
Yeah, no, it's just, it makes no sense.

1100
00:49:40.440 --> 00:49:41.400
It's definitely futury.

1101
00:49:41.460 --> 00:49:45.059
Well, Glitz is contemporaneous with a couple of 1000000 years in

1102
00:49:45.059 --> 00:49:47.579
Earth's future, you know.

1103
00:49:47.639 --> 00:49:47.940
Exactly.

1104
00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:48.360
Exactly.

1105
00:49:48.360 --> 00:49:49.079
Yeah.

1106
00:49:49.079 --> 00:49:51.179
What does he think it's Paraval's going to be like now?

1107
00:49:51.239 --> 00:49:53.219
covered in Joan Sims.

1108
00:49:54.780 --> 00:49:57.179
Yeah, I mean...

1109
00:49:57.239 --> 00:50:01.440
It's really a sweet scene and it's played very sweetly by Bonnie

1110
00:50:01.440 --> 00:50:04.739
and Sylvester. just a pity she's not walking back out on a lane in

1111
00:50:04.739 --> 00:50:07.980
peas pottage instead of walking out with someone who we know as

1112
00:50:07.980 --> 00:50:09.239
fans is a psychopath.

1113
00:50:09.300 --> 00:50:14.159
Well, in fact, too, I mean, the whole scene, which isn't really

1114
00:50:14.159 --> 00:50:14.760
very good.

1115
00:50:14.820 --> 00:50:18.480
I mean, it is an audition piece, it's not a good scene in context

1116
00:50:18.480 --> 00:50:19.440
of the story.

1117
00:50:19.500 --> 00:50:23.219
And it's certainly because the doctor and Mel have essentially

1118
00:50:23.219 --> 00:50:25.800
nothing to say to one another, because Mel's barely.

1119
00:50:25.800 --> 00:50:26.219
Who are you?

1120
00:50:26.340 --> 00:50:27.659
That's right.

1121
00:50:27.719 --> 00:50:28.679
Which one are you?

1122
00:50:28.739 --> 00:50:29.940
You're the one with the red hair.

1123
00:50:30.360 --> 00:50:33.000
So it doesn't really work.

1124
00:50:33.059 --> 00:50:37.500
But the whole point of the scene is you're going to go back and

1125
00:50:37.500 --> 00:50:40.079
live a normal life while I'm the doctor.

1126
00:50:40.139 --> 00:50:44.159
You know, think of me living my life while you're living your days

1127
00:50:44.159 --> 00:50:45.840
one day at a time, you know.

1128
00:50:46.019 --> 00:50:48.179
But she's not gonna do that.

1129
00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:51.659
So it really just sort of makes no sense at all.

1130
00:50:51.719 --> 00:50:53.159
And I think...

1131
00:50:53.219 --> 00:50:54.599
Yeah, it's a big shame.

1132
00:50:54.659 --> 00:50:58.980
So I think, you know, if you're at home, razor glass to all of

1133
00:50:58.980 --> 00:51:03.659
those companions who had really deeply terrible or in some cases

1134
00:51:03.659 --> 00:51:06.480
actively offensive leaving scenes because...

1135
00:51:06.480 --> 00:51:09.539
She got the dodo award for this season, I might say predicating

1136
00:51:09.539 --> 00:51:12.599
what you're about to award you a puzzling creative choice too.

1137
00:51:12.659 --> 00:51:18.840
But it's, ah, she is almost being set up in the same way that

1138
00:51:18.840 --> 00:51:22.440
Clara departs, the alternative doctor stories, whereas instead of

1139
00:51:22.440 --> 00:51:25.860
going off with a lady companion, she's going off with glitz and

1140
00:51:25.860 --> 00:51:30.119
she's sort of going to be the, you know, his moral compass.

1141
00:51:30.179 --> 00:51:35.219
He's he's developing voice that she'll make good for the world and

1142
00:51:35.219 --> 00:51:38.760
I suspect that there was something of that, but it really doesn't

1143
00:51:38.760 --> 00:51:39.719
come across, does it?

1144
00:51:39.780 --> 00:51:43.139
We're having to write this over. don't know why she's going.

1145
00:51:43.199 --> 00:51:43.920
Why is she going?

1146
00:51:43.980 --> 00:51:44.639
Yeah.

1147
00:51:44.699 --> 00:51:45.719
Why is she going?

1148
00:51:45.780 --> 00:51:50.579
There's not a single line of dialogue that points to why she's

1149
00:51:50.579 --> 00:51:51.119
deciding to leave.

1150
00:51:51.179 --> 00:51:55.260
Yeah, it's not like Tegan being tired of violence or, you know

1151
00:51:55.260 --> 00:51:56.760
terminal. a lot at the time.

1152
00:51:56.820 --> 00:52:00.300
Turlow's found his family or Nissa can do some good here.

1153
00:52:00.360 --> 00:52:02.880
You know, is literally no reason.

1154
00:52:03.000 --> 00:52:06.179
It is simply because...

1155
00:52:06.300 --> 00:52:09.239
No, it's because Bonnie's not getting paid next week.

1156
00:52:09.300 --> 00:52:10.739
Yeah, and you spoon.

1157
00:52:11.940 --> 00:52:14.159
About the stones.

1158
00:52:14.340 --> 00:52:18.420
Yeah, you know, it's kind of like, at the time, we kind of

1159
00:52:18.420 --> 00:52:21.659
lamented the lack of a leaving scene for Liz, but it would kind of

1160
00:52:21.659 --> 00:52:25.559
be better if Silv, Bonnie, and Sophie fly off at the end of

1161
00:52:25.559 --> 00:52:27.780
Dragonfire, and then at the beginning of remembrance, we just get

1162
00:52:27.780 --> 00:52:33.420
a line of, you know, Mel decided to go back to university or Mel

1163
00:52:33.420 --> 00:52:36.000
really shouldn't have pressed those buttons on the food machine.

1164
00:52:36.000 --> 00:52:37.199
I did warn her.

1165
00:52:37.860 --> 00:52:39.780
It's a shame, really.

1166
00:52:39.840 --> 00:52:42.900
And it ties in with something, Clayton Hickman said, on one of the

1167
00:52:42.900 --> 00:52:47.099
DVDs, which was, you know, back at the beginning of the season

1168
00:52:47.099 --> 00:52:51.119
where we have this bizarre regeneration where spoiler alert, it's

1169
00:52:51.119 --> 00:52:54.780
Sylvester McCoy in a wig playing Colin Baker before he turns into

1170
00:52:54.780 --> 00:52:55.320
himself.

1171
00:52:55.380 --> 00:52:57.360
And Clayton just said, you know what?

1172
00:52:57.420 --> 00:53:00.719
The program was in such a headspace at the time that they would

1173
00:53:00.719 --> 00:53:02.400
never consider not having a regeneration.

1174
00:53:02.460 --> 00:53:05.579
But at the same time, they were in so much trouble.

1175
00:53:05.639 --> 00:53:06.719
Why didn't they just try?

1176
00:53:06.719 --> 00:53:09.840
Mel walking down the TARS corridor saying, doctor, doctor, where

1177
00:53:09.840 --> 00:53:10.199
are you?

1178
00:53:10.260 --> 00:53:12.659
And Sylvester McCoy pops his head out the door and says, yes.

1179
00:53:13.019 --> 00:53:15.300
Cut to opening credits.

1180
00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:18.059
The regeneration was last week and Mel just makes a comment to the

1181
00:53:18.059 --> 00:53:19.980
effect of, you know, you've been really strange since you've

1182
00:53:19.980 --> 00:53:20.340
changed.

1183
00:53:20.400 --> 00:53:24.239
And that is a dynamic, interesting thing for the viewer.

1184
00:53:24.300 --> 00:53:28.380
And I think here, an offscreen departure would have been better

1185
00:53:28.380 --> 00:53:28.860
than this.

1186
00:53:29.039 --> 00:53:34.980
I think that although the show is going new places, it's still

1187
00:53:34.980 --> 00:53:38.099
tied to a fairly traditional type of storytelling.

1188
00:53:38.159 --> 00:53:41.400
And this is something that we wouldn't blink at.

1189
00:53:41.460 --> 00:53:43.679
I mean, I think it's a bad idea because you invest in the

1190
00:53:43.679 --> 00:53:46.920
characters and it's not fair to just, like, take them away from

1191
00:53:46.920 --> 00:53:47.820
you for no reason.

1192
00:53:47.940 --> 00:53:51.599
I'm being punished for not knowing why.

1193
00:53:51.659 --> 00:53:52.380
Yeah.

1194
00:53:52.380 --> 00:53:57.179
But, you know, that sort of alighting events or having them happen

1195
00:53:57.179 --> 00:54:00.119
off screen or jumps in time and stuff like that.

1196
00:54:00.179 --> 00:54:02.159
We don't do that at the moment.

1197
00:54:02.219 --> 00:54:07.019
You know, I said at the beginning that this at the time was sort

1198
00:54:07.019 --> 00:54:08.940
of regarded as the best story of the season.

1199
00:54:09.000 --> 00:54:12.119
I think maybe that's the earth shock effect of just, you know, on

1200
00:54:12.119 --> 00:54:16.440
1st viewing, it's it's dynamic and explosive and fun, and then as

1201
00:54:16.440 --> 00:54:18.719
you watch it more, there's perhaps less under the surface.

1202
00:54:18.780 --> 00:54:22.739
But I think by no means it's a bad story.

1203
00:54:22.800 --> 00:54:27.480
I think it's just the weakest, most traditional, if you like story

1204
00:54:27.539 --> 00:54:29.099
in a really experimental season.

1205
00:54:29.699 --> 00:54:34.679
I think it's giving us exactly what we expect Newhu to be, which

1206
00:54:34.679 --> 00:54:38.519
none of the other stories have done yet, which is clever, self

1207
00:54:37.199 --> 00:54:41.099
referential, and then referencing everything else outside it.

1208
00:54:41.159 --> 00:54:44.820
So maybe in a way it's actually giving us what we want and showing

1209
00:54:44.820 --> 00:54:47.460
us that that's not the direction we're going to be taking.

1210
00:54:47.519 --> 00:54:50.940
It's all easy to say in hindsight.

1211
00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:52.199
The show is experimenting.

1212
00:54:52.260 --> 00:54:54.119
It's giving something different each time.

1213
00:54:54.179 --> 00:54:57.599
It had to do this story at some and I'm glad it did it in the 1st

1214
00:54:57.599 --> 00:54:58.619
season.

1215
00:54:58.679 --> 00:55:06.300
It is the most archly self-aware critical piece of film exposition

1216
00:55:06.300 --> 00:55:10.920
and literary thinking of what the show is.

1217
00:55:10.980 --> 00:55:15.119
And that's possibly why it's not that successful because writing a

1218
00:55:15.119 --> 00:55:19.679
lot and thinking a lot is the opposite of spontaneous enjoyment

1219
00:55:19.679 --> 00:55:26.099
you might say the art is writing and poring over a script much

1220
00:55:26.099 --> 00:55:30.300
like the way we prepare these podcasts, too, listener. that it

1221
00:55:30.300 --> 00:55:33.480
just seems so fresh and original, yet we've spent months working

1222
00:55:33.480 --> 00:55:34.559
out what we're going to say.

1223
00:55:35.880 --> 00:55:37.920
That's a lie.

1224
00:55:38.460 --> 00:55:41.159
At FTE who facts.

1225
00:55:45.300 --> 00:55:47.400
So, puzzling creative choices.

1226
00:55:47.460 --> 00:55:52.619
I have two, and I've mentioned them one this week, obviously, is

1227
00:55:52.619 --> 00:55:55.199
Mel's departure and the way that was handled.

1228
00:55:55.260 --> 00:56:00.179
And then the other one is the death of all of those people on the

1229
00:56:00.179 --> 00:56:04.440
bus, which I think is vastly more objectionable than the death of

1230
00:56:04.440 --> 00:56:07.019
all of the people in the shopping centre this week, which we

1231
00:56:07.019 --> 00:56:08.340
haven't referenced yet.

1232
00:56:08.400 --> 00:56:11.820
And I think it would have to go to Mel's departure for reasons

1233
00:56:11.820 --> 00:56:12.539
that I've just explained.

1234
00:56:13.320 --> 00:56:16.320
Mine goes to oral casting.

1235
00:56:16.440 --> 00:56:20.219
And I would then suggest that of all the people we could have had

1236
00:56:20.219 --> 00:56:26.400
perhaps too much of a slight thing can be less of a slight thing.

1237
00:56:26.400 --> 00:56:30.059
I don't know why Mr. McCulloch was given quite so much work as he

1238
00:56:30.059 --> 00:56:30.300
was.

1239
00:56:30.360 --> 00:56:33.420
Or indeed that it all sounded exactly the same from the other

1240
00:56:33.420 --> 00:56:33.780
work.

1241
00:56:33.840 --> 00:56:36.420
I know he might well make good next year and I'm looking forward

1242
00:56:36.420 --> 00:56:39.059
to hearing that because I haven't heard it so far.

1243
00:56:39.119 --> 00:56:39.599
Yeah.

1244
00:56:39.659 --> 00:56:42.539
No, I think there are real moments, especially in Paradise Towers

1245
00:56:42.539 --> 00:56:46.139
where I've lost the intention.

1246
00:56:46.139 --> 00:56:48.480
And really, for me, and it's probably saying a lot.

1247
00:56:48.539 --> 00:56:50.519
He's the only thing that's really let me down this year.

1248
00:56:50.639 --> 00:56:53.039
Apart from, obviously, the things that you've just said.

1249
00:56:53.099 --> 00:56:57.719
But even that isn't as great as the wholeness or the, um, the

1250
00:56:57.719 --> 00:57:00.840
congealing of all the parts, and it's McCulloch that has not been

1251
00:57:00.840 --> 00:57:02.219
part of that process for me.

1252
00:57:02.280 --> 00:57:06.300
As I've already said, I really like Keff McCulloch's music, but I

1253
00:57:06.300 --> 00:57:07.860
can certainly understand why some people don't.

1254
00:57:07.980 --> 00:57:09.900
Why, a lot of people don't, to be honest.

1255
00:57:09.960 --> 00:57:10.860
I think I am...

1256
00:57:10.860 --> 00:57:12.900
A lot of them in this room...

1257
00:57:12.900 --> 00:57:15.780
Look, I am safely in the minority of fandom in liking Kev

1258
00:57:15.780 --> 00:57:16.500
McCollough's music.

1259
00:57:16.559 --> 00:57:17.099
I know that.

1260
00:57:18.239 --> 00:57:19.920
And absolutely.

1261
00:57:19.980 --> 00:57:23.460
I agree that the 2 massacres in the 2 stories.

1262
00:57:23.519 --> 00:57:25.440
They're just completely tone deaf.

1263
00:57:25.440 --> 00:57:27.179
We've name-checked the massacre.

1264
00:57:27.239 --> 00:57:30.179
I think the Delta and the Bannerman wanted...

1265
00:57:30.239 --> 00:57:35.340
Delta and the Bannerman is offensively toned F. The dragon, the

1266
00:57:35.340 --> 00:57:39.480
dragonfire one just, it just feels like, we can't afford to pay

1267
00:57:39.480 --> 00:57:41.159
the actors for the last studio session.

1268
00:57:41.219 --> 00:57:41.880
You know?

1269
00:57:42.000 --> 00:57:43.019
It does, doesn't it?

1270
00:57:43.079 --> 00:57:47.340
And I think I tweeted at the time, Stella's mother is remarkably

1271
00:57:47.340 --> 00:57:48.719
unaffected by this massacre.

1272
00:57:48.780 --> 00:57:49.619
Is she a Tory?

1273
00:57:51.420 --> 00:57:52.860
Yeah.

1274
00:57:52.860 --> 00:57:55.559
This milkshake is an adequately shaken.

1275
00:57:55.619 --> 00:57:56.460
Yeah, right.

1276
00:57:56.519 --> 00:57:57.300
Okay, love.

1277
00:57:57.360 --> 00:58:01.260
But if I wasn't going to go for one of those things, I would

1278
00:58:01.260 --> 00:58:05.820
actually say my puzzling creative choice is not having Lakersia be

1279
00:58:05.820 --> 00:58:06.360
a forest.

1280
00:58:06.360 --> 00:58:08.460
I couldn't agree more.

1281
00:58:08.519 --> 00:58:10.679
It really rubs, doesn't it?

1282
00:58:10.739 --> 00:58:13.079
Like a bit of sandstone on your white pants.

1283
00:58:13.139 --> 00:58:13.380
Yeah.

1284
00:58:13.440 --> 00:58:16.739
Pippin Jane suggested locations that they knew had been used on

1285
00:58:16.739 --> 00:58:21.119
Space 1999 for their story, a matter of balance. of Luxor or

1286
00:58:21.119 --> 00:58:21.900
whatever it was called.

1287
00:58:22.619 --> 00:58:23.460
The rules of Luton.

1288
00:58:23.519 --> 00:58:23.940
Yeah.

1289
00:58:24.719 --> 00:58:26.699
No, that's a real story.

1290
00:58:26.760 --> 00:58:28.079
The rules of wood.

1291
00:58:28.139 --> 00:58:33.659
But yeah, I can't understand why Andrew Morgan instead chose a

1292
00:58:33.659 --> 00:58:34.019
quarry.

1293
00:58:34.079 --> 00:58:37.679
I can't imagine significantly cheaper, you know.

1294
00:58:37.739 --> 00:58:39.179
He was allergic to trees.

1295
00:58:39.179 --> 00:58:42.599
It's a little bit insensitive for him to bring it up, actually.

1296
00:58:42.719 --> 00:58:43.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1297
00:58:43.739 --> 00:58:45.000
Yeah.

1298
00:58:45.000 --> 00:58:46.980
Helen Blatchiner osteoporosis, you know?

1299
00:58:47.039 --> 00:58:49.019
But yeah, that would be my choice.

1300
00:58:49.079 --> 00:58:50.880
I don't think this season sets many feet wrong.

1301
00:58:50.940 --> 00:58:53.340
One thing we haven't discussed, which I think we should just have

1302
00:58:53.340 --> 00:58:55.980
a short discussion of before our picks of the week is the new

1303
00:58:55.980 --> 00:58:57.480
title sequence, a new title music.

1304
00:58:57.539 --> 00:59:01.800
We touched a little on it in the 1st story when I said, this has

1305
00:59:01.800 --> 00:59:03.300
brought us into the 3rd dimension.

1306
00:59:03.360 --> 00:59:04.500
Oh, yeah, yeah.

1307
00:59:04.500 --> 00:59:08.880
And then beyond that into the 4th and 5th as Susan might have told

1308
00:59:08.880 --> 00:59:09.300
us.

1309
00:59:09.360 --> 00:59:13.019
It's a three-dimensional Rawshack ink block, isn't it?

1310
00:59:13.079 --> 00:59:14.159
Yeah, it's great.

1311
00:59:14.280 --> 00:59:17.039
I mean, discussing doctor with my brother.

1312
00:59:17.099 --> 00:59:19.380
He's not as big a fan as me, but he does enjoy it.

1313
00:59:19.619 --> 00:59:22.260
He said he loved it.

1314
00:59:22.320 --> 00:59:26.940
So when I was six, he would have been 15, he said he loved it at

1315
00:59:26.940 --> 00:59:30.539
the time because it really felt like you were travelling.

1316
00:59:30.599 --> 00:59:35.039
And it felt like a really high quality video game, which it did.

1317
00:59:35.099 --> 00:59:36.239
In fact, that's exactly what they looked like.

1318
00:59:36.300 --> 00:59:39.539
If you were paying enough, and then you'd get those few seconds of

1319
00:59:39.539 --> 00:59:42.539
intro before you went back into the 2D world.

1320
00:59:42.960 --> 00:59:47.159
It's very period, and particularly the typography is extremely

1321
00:59:47.159 --> 00:59:47.639
period.

1322
00:59:47.760 --> 00:59:52.380
I do like the closing credits where for ones you're not travelling

1323
00:59:52.380 --> 00:59:55.320
down a time tunnel or something like that, it is static with a

1324
00:59:55.320 --> 00:59:58.800
thing revolving underneath it, but it is spoiled by those stupid

1325
00:59:58.800 --> 01:00:01.980
rocks that are two-dimensional.

1326
01:00:02.039 --> 01:00:03.900
They don't even roll through the thing.

1327
01:00:03.960 --> 01:00:07.019
Even Gareth, Edward says, you know, he's ashamed of his rocks.

1328
01:00:07.079 --> 01:00:09.119
Well, it's the harsh thing for any man.

1329
01:00:09.179 --> 01:00:10.559
That's true.

1330
01:00:10.619 --> 01:00:13.679
Yeah, they were a last minute edition because JNT kind of said, nah

1331
01:00:13.679 --> 01:00:14.519
there needs to be more motion.

1332
01:00:14.579 --> 01:00:18.480
And of course, you know, the sequence cost, what was it, £8000?

1333
01:00:18.539 --> 01:00:20.039
It was very expensive.

1334
01:00:20.099 --> 01:00:25.440
It was, it was somewhere in the region of the, um, the trial um

1335
01:00:25.440 --> 01:00:26.639
ship.

1336
01:00:26.699 --> 01:00:28.380
Emotional controlled camera thing.

1337
01:00:28.440 --> 01:00:29.519
The emotional control camera.

1338
01:00:29.639 --> 01:00:33.360
You could only model in primitive polygons at this and we didn't

1339
01:00:33.360 --> 01:00:35.460
even actually have polygons as we know them now.

1340
01:00:35.519 --> 01:00:39.179
So I don't think we'll probably get into this for the non

1341
01:00:38.219 --> 01:00:40.500
animators out there on the non-modelers.

1342
01:00:40.559 --> 01:00:44.340
But it was, I would have liked swirly little blurry star things

1343
01:00:44.340 --> 01:00:44.699
you know.

1344
01:00:44.760 --> 01:00:48.119
Bonnie Langford's career, something like that, just sort of, you

1345
01:00:48.119 --> 01:00:48.960
know, hurtling towards us.

1346
01:00:49.019 --> 01:00:51.539
I'll put this in the show notes, but there is a version of the

1347
01:00:51.539 --> 01:00:55.260
title sequence that was created by an animator like quite

1348
01:00:55.260 --> 01:00:56.039
recently.

1349
01:00:56.460 --> 01:00:58.440
In about 24 hours.

1350
01:00:58.500 --> 01:01:02.400
Yeah, I think they created in 24 hours and it is a really faithful

1351
01:01:02.400 --> 01:01:06.239
rendering of this particular title sequence only done with modern

1352
01:01:06.239 --> 01:01:08.699
technology and it does look amazingly good.

1353
01:01:08.760 --> 01:01:09.539
Okay.

1354
01:01:09.539 --> 01:01:13.019
Yeah, so, you know, it was a great concept and I think in terms of

1355
01:01:13.019 --> 01:01:16.199
the animation that was available, the time that was available, the

1356
01:01:16.199 --> 01:01:16.980
money that was available.

1357
01:01:17.039 --> 01:01:18.780
It was the best they could buy.

1358
01:01:18.840 --> 01:01:22.920
At this time, of course, Pixar were forming and making short films

1359
01:01:22.920 --> 01:01:24.599
which you can find on their DVDs.

1360
01:01:24.659 --> 01:01:28.320
And I believe it was around this time that they started doing the

1361
01:01:28.320 --> 01:01:32.699
very early animatics for the 1st Toy Story film, which are also on

1362
01:01:32.699 --> 01:01:33.539
the DVDs.

1363
01:01:33.599 --> 01:01:36.599
And to be honest, the very early stuff is not much more

1364
01:01:36.599 --> 01:01:38.699
sophisticated than what we see there.

1365
01:01:38.760 --> 01:01:40.380
It really was cutting edge.

1366
01:01:40.440 --> 01:01:42.360
I've heard people say, oh, you know, at the time it looked

1367
01:01:42.360 --> 01:01:45.179
outdated 2 weeks later and I kind of think, really?

1368
01:01:45.239 --> 01:01:48.420
You know, I was at home playing my Nintendo entertainment system

1369
01:01:48.420 --> 01:01:53.039
where you can see the edges on Mario's hat, you know, and that was

1370
01:01:53.039 --> 01:01:55.980
a mass, that was a mass consumer product which sold over 1000000

1371
01:01:55.980 --> 01:01:56.280
units.

1372
01:01:56.340 --> 01:01:58.980
Yeah, it's really...

1373
01:02:00.599 --> 01:02:03.179
What's your favourite title sequence?

1374
01:02:03.239 --> 01:02:05.760
Oh, it's Pertley's last season.

1375
01:02:05.820 --> 01:02:06.780
Yeah, me too.

1376
01:02:06.840 --> 01:02:08.039
Yeah, actually me as well.

1377
01:02:09.059 --> 01:02:12.119
It's not a lot of controversy.

1378
01:02:12.119 --> 01:02:16.920
To be honest, though, I think my favourite music is Dominic

1379
01:02:16.920 --> 01:02:18.360
Glynn's revised version.

1380
01:02:18.420 --> 01:02:21.059
So not his televised version, but he's done some remixes of it

1381
01:02:21.059 --> 01:02:23.820
where...

1382
01:02:23.880 --> 01:02:25.320
Yeah, the trial point.

1383
01:02:25.380 --> 01:02:27.659
Is that the one that's on the big finish audio?

1384
01:02:27.719 --> 01:02:29.880
They used on the big finish audio?

1385
01:02:29.940 --> 01:02:30.780
It's quite shimmery.

1386
01:02:31.079 --> 01:02:31.559
Yeah.

1387
01:02:31.619 --> 01:02:33.960
And he's done another version with a lot more bass.

1388
01:02:34.019 --> 01:02:38.280
And he's done a great 8 minute remix of it where it's kind of just

1389
01:02:38.280 --> 01:02:42.239
used as punctuation for other music and it does sound mysterious

1390
01:02:42.239 --> 01:02:43.320
and it does sound scary.

1391
01:02:43.380 --> 01:02:45.659
Kev's version of the theme.

1392
01:02:45.719 --> 01:02:49.440
It feels like we're going on an adventure.

1393
01:02:49.500 --> 01:02:51.539
To the arcade gallery.

1394
01:02:51.960 --> 01:02:53.880
But that's the thing.

1395
01:02:53.940 --> 01:03:00.179
I think one adjective I would use to describe Keff's music is

1396
01:03:00.179 --> 01:03:01.019
unashamed.

1397
01:03:01.679 --> 01:03:06.960
You know, he's he's like, I'm creating this and there it is

1398
01:03:06.960 --> 01:03:08.340
accepted on its own terms.

1399
01:03:08.400 --> 01:03:12.719
It never feels half assed in a way that sometimes say Malcolm

1400
01:03:12.719 --> 01:03:14.940
Clark did. singular buttocked.

1401
01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:16.559
I might also want to say.

1402
01:03:16.559 --> 01:03:20.159
Delia Derbyshire still wins for me every time around.

1403
01:03:20.219 --> 01:03:22.559
You've got people like Kraft for exciting her.

1404
01:03:22.619 --> 01:03:24.599
She's she's it.

1405
01:03:24.719 --> 01:03:26.460
Pix of the week?

1406
01:03:26.519 --> 01:03:27.300
Pix of the week.

1407
01:03:28.260 --> 01:03:31.920
Well, I'm going to go down the path of least resistance and

1408
01:03:31.920 --> 01:03:36.059
suggest a big finish and that big finish is flip-flop.

1409
01:03:36.179 --> 01:03:41.159
Which is a Sylvester McCoy and Bonnie Langford audio.

1410
01:03:41.219 --> 01:03:45.659
It is 2 discs, but unlike other big finish stories where it's disc

1411
01:03:45.659 --> 01:03:46.619
one and disc two.

1412
01:03:46.679 --> 01:03:49.380
It's a black disc and a white disc, and you can listen to them in

1413
01:03:49.380 --> 01:03:53.159
either order, and the story still makes sense because there is an

1414
01:03:53.159 --> 01:03:57.360
event that happens at the end of both episode 2s on each disc

1415
01:03:57.360 --> 01:04:01.559
which then leads it into the episode one of the next disc.

1416
01:04:01.619 --> 01:04:02.699
Wow.

1417
01:04:02.760 --> 01:04:06.900
The story is set on the same planet and the discs are set 30 years

1418
01:04:06.900 --> 01:04:07.380
apart.

1419
01:04:07.440 --> 01:04:11.099
So either you're in the future and go into the past or you're in

1420
01:04:11.099 --> 01:04:12.239
the past and you go into the future.

1421
01:04:12.300 --> 01:04:13.980
It's incredibly cleverly done.

1422
01:04:14.039 --> 01:04:18.119
Friend of the podcast and friend of ours, Richard Dan Hogarth.

1423
01:04:18.179 --> 01:04:24.719
He is the slithergies who are poor blind aliens who cannot see.

1424
01:04:24.780 --> 01:04:26.940
I am a slithergy who cannot see.

1425
01:04:27.000 --> 01:04:30.539
And yeah, they're on this human colony world and the story unfolds

1426
01:04:30.539 --> 01:04:30.960
like that.

1427
01:04:31.019 --> 01:04:34.679
And there's also a very nice nod to Hartnell in one of the opening

1428
01:04:34.679 --> 01:04:35.280
scenes.

1429
01:04:35.579 --> 01:04:38.940
And Bonnie Langford gets to say the line.

1430
01:04:39.000 --> 01:04:40.860
Well, now that we've quelled the quarks.

1431
01:04:41.699 --> 01:04:47.280
So Doctor Who flip-flop available for $3 to download from Big

1432
01:04:47.280 --> 01:04:48.780
Finish. brilliant.

1433
01:04:49.559 --> 01:04:56.219
I want to recommend an idea. rather than a particular thing, or as

1434
01:04:56.219 --> 01:04:59.699
well as a particular thing, and that is, we all grew up with the

1435
01:04:59.699 --> 01:05:02.940
target novelisations, and I love them to death.

1436
01:05:03.059 --> 01:05:06.300
I cannot understand why they're all not still in print or

1437
01:05:06.300 --> 01:05:09.119
available from Amazon, although a whole bunch of them are.

1438
01:05:09.239 --> 01:05:16.559
But very recently, they released an audio version of the Delta and

1439
01:05:16.559 --> 01:05:20.340
the Bannerman novelisation, read by none other than Bonnie

1440
01:05:20.340 --> 01:05:21.000
Langford.

1441
01:05:21.119 --> 01:05:24.539
And so you've got Bonnie Langford reading you a book.

1442
01:05:24.599 --> 01:05:27.960
So it's fantastic, as you would expect.

1443
01:05:28.019 --> 01:05:30.239
She's absolutely gorgeous and fabulous.

1444
01:05:30.300 --> 01:05:33.059
And so that's what I recommend.

1445
01:05:33.119 --> 01:05:38.400
I recommend, say, getting an audible subscription and using the

1446
01:05:38.400 --> 01:05:41.219
promo code FTE, which won't work.

1447
01:05:41.280 --> 01:05:42.780
It won't get you anything at all.

1448
01:05:44.400 --> 01:05:47.579
But there's heaps of them available.

1449
01:05:47.639 --> 01:05:49.079
They release them month by month.

1450
01:05:49.139 --> 01:05:51.480
We've got them from all over the place.

1451
01:05:51.599 --> 01:05:56.099
You can choose Maureen O'Brien, reading the rescue, all the way to

1452
01:05:56.099 --> 01:05:58.980
John Culshaw, reading the Santara and experiment.

1453
01:05:59.159 --> 01:06:03.599
But Bonnie Langford and Delta and the Bannerman by Malcolm Cole.

1454
01:06:04.320 --> 01:06:09.300
I haven't been able to get beyond what this season's been doing

1455
01:06:09.300 --> 01:06:10.380
inside itself.

1456
01:06:10.440 --> 01:06:13.260
So I don't have any Doctor Who recommendations, even though I've

1457
01:06:13.260 --> 01:06:15.179
been listening to all of the big finish stuff like Brendan's been

1458
01:06:15.179 --> 01:06:15.420
saying.

1459
01:06:15.539 --> 01:06:17.219
So all of those have been terrific.

1460
01:06:17.280 --> 01:06:20.639
But I just keep going back to the imagery and what they're playing

1461
01:06:20.639 --> 01:06:21.000
with.

1462
01:06:21.059 --> 01:06:24.900
So yeah, I'm going to be really intertextually auxiliary on this

1463
01:06:24.900 --> 01:06:30.480
one and say, okay, any of Corosawa's films, especially Iran, or

1464
01:06:30.480 --> 01:06:33.659
Mojimbo is Wonderful, Hidden Fortress.

1465
01:06:33.719 --> 01:06:35.400
They're all playing on different Shakespeare stories.

1466
01:06:35.460 --> 01:06:38.039
They're just beautiful, if you like Delta and the Bannerman, but I

1467
01:06:38.039 --> 01:06:43.019
would also look at I would also look at Joseph von Sternberg's

1468
01:06:43.019 --> 01:06:45.960
films with Marlena Dietrich when he got to Hollywood because

1469
01:06:45.960 --> 01:06:49.139
there's a lot of visuals in this, especially the ice stuff when

1470
01:06:49.139 --> 01:06:50.280
she does Scarlet Empress.

1471
01:06:50.340 --> 01:06:53.219
Morocco is one of the most extraordinary films you've ever seen

1472
01:06:53.219 --> 01:06:53.880
visually.

1473
01:06:53.940 --> 01:06:57.480
If you just want to see something that style about style.

1474
01:06:57.539 --> 01:07:00.239
And I think that's actually what this season has been about.

1475
01:07:00.300 --> 01:07:06.840
It is no longer the divide between form and function, which was

1476
01:07:06.840 --> 01:07:10.260
the 50s thinking, we're now in the, it's all the same thing.

1477
01:07:10.320 --> 01:07:11.519
It doesn't matter which one it is.

1478
01:07:11.579 --> 01:07:14.940
So yeah, I would go and see Morocco, Shanghai Express, is amazing

1479
01:07:14.940 --> 01:07:15.960
and hilarious.

1480
01:07:16.019 --> 01:07:18.360
And she really does play it like Billy Hartmore.

1481
01:07:18.420 --> 01:07:19.619
Go and have a look.

1482
01:07:20.400 --> 01:07:23.219
And if you don't want to, you don't have to.

1483
01:07:53.880 --> 01:07:58.260
Well, dear listeners, we've come to the end of another season of

1484
01:07:58.260 --> 01:07:58.980
Doctor Who.

1485
01:07:59.039 --> 01:08:02.699
But we will be back next week with our Tom Baker commentary, which

1486
01:08:02.699 --> 01:08:04.619
is The Stones of Blood.

1487
01:08:04.739 --> 01:08:06.719
So do come back next week for that.

1488
01:08:06.780 --> 01:08:10.559
Until then, you can also vote for our Peter Davison commentary to

1489
01:08:10.559 --> 01:08:14.699
go out at the end of season 25 and the nominees for that are for

1490
01:08:14.699 --> 01:08:19.199
to Doomsday, Arc of Infinity, Enlightenment, Resurrection of the

1491
01:08:19.199 --> 01:08:19.800
Daleks.

1492
01:08:19.920 --> 01:08:22.859
You can find the link to that in our show notes.

1493
01:08:22.859 --> 01:08:26.399
And on our website, Flightthrough Entirety.sexy, Flight Through

1494
01:08:26.399 --> 01:08:30.779
Entirety, on Facebook, and at FTE podcasts on Twitter.

1495
01:08:30.840 --> 01:08:35.039
Don't forget to also follow at FTE who facts for all your very

1496
01:08:35.039 --> 01:08:37.979
true and 100% accurate Doctor Who facts.

1497
01:08:38.039 --> 01:08:40.380
Over on Bondfinger.

1498
01:08:40.439 --> 01:08:44.220
We are in right in the middle of having a big Brosnan.

1499
01:08:44.279 --> 01:08:46.680
So check that out at...

1500
01:08:46.680 --> 01:08:51.899
Rosnan Brew Up. Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and Apple

1501
01:08:51.899 --> 01:08:52.260
Podcasts.

1502
01:08:52.319 --> 01:08:54.960
I think I need to get me bags out of the pot they've stewed.

1503
01:08:55.020 --> 01:08:58.500
And at Bond Fingercast on Twitter.

1504
01:08:58.859 --> 01:09:02.939
Until next week, may none of your experiences border on the

1505
01:09:02.939 --> 01:09:03.659
existential.

1506
01:09:03.720 --> 01:09:05.039
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1507
01:09:05.100 --> 01:09:05.699
Good night.

1508
01:09:05.760 --> 01:09:06.659
Good thing is.

1509
01:09:24.899 --> 01:09:27.600
That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley

1510
01:09:27.600 --> 01:09:28.859
Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

1511
01:09:28.920 --> 01:09:32.159
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, logo designed by Anthony

1512
01:09:32.159 --> 01:09:32.939
Wells.

1513
01:09:33.000 --> 01:09:36.720
This episode, a really, really good length, was recorded on the

1514
01:09:36.720 --> 01:09:38.220
12th of June 2017.

1515
01:09:38.399 --> 01:09:41.640
The next episode will be released on the 23rd of July.

1516
01:09:44.699 --> 01:09:47.399
Fans of this season will also enjoy several other seasons

1517
01:09:47.399 --> 01:09:53.340
including season six, season 17, season 48 of Law and Order SVU

1518
01:09:53.340 --> 01:09:57.180
and that season that comes after summer, the autumn, or

1519
01:09:57.180 --> 01:09:57.359
something.

1520
01:09:58.319 --> 01:10:01.619
Okay, I'm just going to think of something to end with.

1521
01:10:04.260 --> 01:10:06.779
That 1st bond finger.

1522
01:10:06.840 --> 01:10:10.199
You spend your entire time talking about how he's just been found

1523
01:10:10.199 --> 01:10:13.020
like at the perfumes count.

1524
01:10:13.140 --> 01:10:15.659
Oh, fridges.

1525
01:10:15.779 --> 01:10:17.460
Oh, he's funny?

1526
01:10:17.520 --> 01:10:19.260
Yeah, yes, it's really funny.

1527
01:10:19.260 --> 01:10:21.000
It's a constant reference.

1528
01:10:21.000 --> 01:10:21.840
Golden Eye.

1529
01:10:21.899 --> 01:10:22.500
Golden finger.

1530
01:10:22.560 --> 01:10:22.800
Okay.

1531
01:10:23.880 --> 01:10:25.560
Let's see.

1532
01:10:26.640 --> 01:10:28.380
He's awful.