WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 12:18:53

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Hello and welcome to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who

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podcast who gives you 300 lashes apiece, but only when you ask for

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it.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm wearing a fishhead for this episode.

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Hello.

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And yeah, we're back looking at season 4 of Doctor Who, which is

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also the 1st season to feature Patrick Trouton as the doctor.

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So we're going to jump in with a story which is a story of thirst

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but also a story of lasts with the Highlanders.

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Just tossing, okay, deflating the bagpipes, okay.

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Is that ready to go?

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Is that a burner cribbons, isn't it?

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I believe this is your story, Nathan.

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All right, so the Highlanders, it's mine.

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Yay.

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It was very carefully allocated by the randomiser.

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I did actually hack into it beforehand to ensure that I would get

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the last say when it came to the genre of historicals because the

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Highlanders is famously the last Doctor Who historical until Black

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Orchid, which I'm really looking forward to talking about actually

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in 2017 or something.

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So we talked about Power of the Dalek's last episode, and I think

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we agreed that it was something pretty spectacular.

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And so now we see what Patrick Trouton is like in something that

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you know, is a staple of the Hartnell years, the historical.

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And I have to say that I'm not really going to surprise anyone.

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I really don't like it at all.

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It's terrible, isn't it?

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Why?

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Well, WHY question mark.

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That question in the 60s, do this at fellow pointers in on my sofa

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of reasonable comfort, is was the kind of question that you could

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type into a computer and instead of just getting an error message

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Patrick Magoon did it in the general episode of the prisoner.

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And the whole room exploded.

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This is the thing of, the season of waking up, let's read Abby

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Hoffman and Alan Ginsburg and go and smoke a little bit of, oh

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etheric sensibility and find out where we are.

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This is the last of the old style of storytelling, but it isn't

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just an historical because, as the whole point of Doctor Who is, we

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have people who don't belong anywhere, let alone 1746, in the

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bloodiest, as far as I know, the bloodiest moment of any conflict

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on British soil.

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There were, what was it, 9000 English under the butcher, Duke of

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Cumberland, slaughtering 4000 Jacobites, and as one of the

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characters, as a solicitor graces in this, It takes only 2 hours.

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It was a blood bath.

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And then you've got a lovely London dead, and a cocky cockney

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sailor, and who the hell is this guy in a bird, the hunter's hay

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hat, and...

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Oh, it only appears when I think Polly tries it on, but you don't

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you only see it in, Don't you, in a little bit of this, and the

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power of the Daleks, and it's gone forever.

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Yeah, yeah. which is a sad thing.

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It always seems back coming back to the hatch, doesn't it?

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I think I think it is featured briefly at the beginning of

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Underwater Menace that he moves... why she tries it on.

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As yeah, produces tape. by the fish people.

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So what we find is they arrive just as the battle is finished.

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Oh, look, in that called Shakespeare.

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There's a battle over there on the left of the stage.

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You know, it's just already happened.

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It's a real nice way of doing it though, isn't it?

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That's the 1st time we've done that, that the event is, okay, you

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could say with the Romans, that we burn the map and we see it all

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erupting as we leave.

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And with the massacre, we had the big, the huge climax was

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portrayed using the contemporary engraving.

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So that did actually take place during the story during the night

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that people were there.

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It's also a device that's been used to great effect the 1st 7

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series of the new Doctor Who series.

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Here's this war that happened over there, but we never see it.

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Yeah, that's true.

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Yeah, well, I mean, it is sort of cheaply realised, but we do we

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do get some idea of what the aftermath is like and we do get a

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sort of fairly clear idea of how horrible the battle is just from

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the behaviour of the sort of the horribly English troops and

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things afterwards.

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I mean, it isn't really very much about that battle, and all the

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guidebooks suggest that it's, you know, the doctor goes to the

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Battle of Colloden.

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No, he doesn't at all.

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No, it's not really about that at all.

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And it all just sort of turns into taking prisoners of war.

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And then sort of selling them, they're going to be sold as

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slaves.

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It's a series of comedy set pieces with some real underlying drama

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underneath.

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And that's why I feel, personally, and I've said this many times

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before, the historicals are the only ones that really get to the

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viewer, get to me as a viewer, because they actually happen and

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they mean something.

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This really is present danger and whatever is going to happen.

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And it could actually affect the characters in a very real way.

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We know it's happened.

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It's a fixed point.

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So when you see, especially in this story.

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When you see Paddy locking it up and putting on every accent under

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the carry-on sun, Are you been doing for the very 1st time, don't

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you wish Billy had done this drag as the doctor?

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You've got all these crazy, wonderful things happening with a very

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real sense of there's, there's, there's genuine darkness in some

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of these characters and the motivations are awful and the sense of

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of dire threat, just, just a shoulder turn away is ever present in

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this one.

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You see, I mean, I think I think that this story more than, uh, you

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know, any of the others that we're going to discuss in season four

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and, you know, we said uh, last time that season four, just

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doesn't survive very well.

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It's the season that was most seriously affected by the junking of

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past episodes.

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And so none of the highlanders exists and none of power of the

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Daleks exist.

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And the final episode of 10th Planet doesn't exist and the 1st

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episode of Underwater Menace doesn't exist.

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So we're in a run of like 12 episodes, none of which exist.

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And crucially, it's the beginning of Troughton's doctor.

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And so it seems to me that, that if the Highlanders is fondly

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remembered, it's not fondly remembered, because it really

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particularly does what the other historicals do, because remember

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the other historicals sort of fall into the 2 camps.

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One is like the Aztecs where history's a terrifying place that we

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have to escape from.

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And then the other one is the sort of comedy, you know, Romans

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Donald Cotton approach where we're doing some things here.

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It's, you couldn't really say it falls into either of those 2

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camps at all.

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You know, like I don't know that slave traders, you know, is a

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particularly strong genre that has, you know, outstandingly

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interesting tropes that we all wanted to see.

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Sorry, that we all wanted to see covered by Doctor Who.

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So it's not a Donald Cotton style historical.

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And it's not, it's not seriously enough, serious enough to be a

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Luka Roddy historical.

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And I mean, what Xander does is he just says it's a savage

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deconstruction of the historical as a genre.

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And what you do really...

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What you get is you get Trout and doing all of his party pieces

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Trout, and doing these things that Hartner would never have done

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in a 1000000 years, like drag, like the comedy Anoverian accent

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like slamming the guy's head into the table repeatedly.

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And, you know, like, you know, all of that came from notes from

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Jerry Davis and Dennis Lloyd.

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They actually wanted all of that.

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That was the reason they ended up hiring Trout and it was the

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comedy labels and trying to get it more that pitch it to the, a

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lot of that was happening in British cinema.

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At the time, you would get violence with comedy together.

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It was all post- postmortem before postmortem.

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But that pre-post-mortem.

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Yeah, thank you.

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Chin chin.

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Yeah, that whole, that whole, exacerbate the drama by throwing in

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the unexpected, the comedy over the top.

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The Bond films were doing it really well at the time too.

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Thunderball was the last bond just before this, but we'll get to

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the underwater menace.

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You can watch Thunderball and the underwater menace and not tell

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the difference.

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They're almost identical.

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See, that's why I think that this story is so important because it

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is at a time where the producers are saying we want to get rid of

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the historicals, but they get quite a good sendoff because this is

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the 1st historical that to me anyway feels like it's a drama 1st

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and it's a historical story second.

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Yes, I agree.

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Because the Aztecs and the Massacre, good though they are, Their

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whole shtick is it's a historical story.

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Whereas this, as well as having the historical backdrop in

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historical events, you've got the characters pursuing their own

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line of drama as well.

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And it's really important for defining Patrick Troughton's

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character as the doctor because as you said, Nathan, These are

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lots of things that the 1st doctor would never do, you know.

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I'm not a woman and I prefer trousers to petticoats any day.

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I hate dresses.

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That just would have put page to that, whereas trowns just like

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ooh, yes, I'll have a bit of this frog and a bit of that frog.

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Oh, and yes, I'll have one of these lovely hats.

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Or I should like a hat like that.

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I should like a hat like that.

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You know, like, I think I think if we if we had were actually able

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to see that stuff, when when we get to the underwater menace, and

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we actually finally get to see Trouton's performance for the 1st

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time in episode 2, because, you know, the rest of the time we've

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been listening to audios are watching slideshows, even in

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underwater menace, he's just a pleasure to watch.

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And I imagine that I would like the Highlanders if I could see

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Troughton in it.

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But as far as I can see, it's just another tiresome trip to a past

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prison followed rapidly by the pub, you know, in the great

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historical tradition.

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And it really doesn't sort of amount to anything and there's a

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vague bit of casual racism in it as well.

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And, and, yes, we're taking Scott's people to Barbados to work in

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the, in the sugar mines as how that works, because they're much

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better workers than the, uh, than the black people who would

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otherwise do it.

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It is like there's something kind of seedy and unpleasant about

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the whole slavery being anyway.

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But remember, you're not you're not supposed to agree.

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No, no, I... in any way.

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Something I quite like about it is, and this is especially

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relevant today with the recent failed Scottish independence vote.

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This story does not patronise the Scots.

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No, it really doesn't.

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And it treats...

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Okay, there are some, you know, there's some really kind of almost

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pantomimic characters and they're very black and white boomtish.

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But it is treated as if they're all adults and there are some

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really lovely stuff.

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The closer you get to the driving forces characters within the

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narrative of Ben and Polly and the doctor.

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And Jamie doesn't really count so far because he wasn't a

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companion yet.

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Barely in it, exactly.

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He doesn't actually get much to do.

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Kirsty gets more to do than J.

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Thank you, because that's what I wanted to say.

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If you're looking around for someone to join the TARDIS crew and

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who really has a response.

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All this season, in fact, will see how secondary female characters

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present each and every time a great response to a story and a

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great integration with the cast and then bug it off in this later

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episode and we just take someone yet.

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Else, I haven't got to Debbie Ward.

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Waterfield, yes.

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Debbie Waterfield yet.

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Debbie Waterfield.

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Yes, how fantastic is Hannah Gordon?

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And if anyone remembers, you know, had a youth in the 70s and

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remembers Hannah Gordon in Howard's way, or as I remember her, 1st

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sitting on that fence on Malcolm and Wise, singing Michelle

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LeGron's Windmills of Your Mind, as her clothes were slowly blown

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off in the windmill behind her, lost its sails.

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She's indelible.

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It was the 70s.

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And she's she's a terrific actress and really well respected and

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00:13:09.059 --> 00:13:12.000
you can see why here when she was very young and studying up.

243
00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:16.320
She holds those scenes, the moments with Polly's shines no better

244
00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:21.179
than when she's up against an equal, but from the past, so who

245
00:13:21.179 --> 00:13:24.240
doesn't have her sophistication into her 20th century books part.

246
00:13:24.299 --> 00:13:26.039
They are so good.

247
00:13:26.100 --> 00:13:28.200
That's one of the reasons I really love this story.

248
00:13:28.259 --> 00:13:30.480
Especially when they trap algae down the hole.

249
00:13:30.539 --> 00:13:32.820
I mean, you can just love the euphemism.

250
00:13:32.879 --> 00:13:33.419
It's so true.

251
00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:36.179
You got to lift that scene out of the Highlanders.

252
00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:37.799
Chuck it in today with Clara.

253
00:13:37.980 --> 00:13:39.779
Yep, no one would buy it.

254
00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:41.759
Do you know, it's a funny thing too.

255
00:13:41.820 --> 00:13:43.980
And it's something that starts happening with Ben and Polly

256
00:13:43.980 --> 00:13:46.500
because they do the smugglers before this and then the Highlanders

257
00:13:46.500 --> 00:13:48.120
and they're the 2 historicals.

258
00:13:48.179 --> 00:13:52.919
And in each case, they're portrayed as being able to outwit or

259
00:13:52.919 --> 00:13:57.960
perform better than the historical character.

260
00:13:58.019 --> 00:14:01.559
So, you know, they dupe Tom in the smugglers into releasing them

261
00:14:01.559 --> 00:14:02.100
from prison.

262
00:14:02.220 --> 00:14:05.100
Here, Polly is better than Kirsty.

263
00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:08.940
Like Kirsty is, you know, a fabulous Scotswoman who, like I could

264
00:14:08.940 --> 00:14:12.659
just imagine her, you know, punching Polly's head in, you know

265
00:14:12.659 --> 00:14:16.919
about the 2nd thought, but she's crying all the time and she's

266
00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:21.299
sort of pathetic and Polly has to, you know, take control.

267
00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:23.220
And when it's trapping algae.

268
00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:24.539
And I love algae.

269
00:14:24.600 --> 00:14:25.919
I think he's the best thing about this.

270
00:14:25.980 --> 00:14:34.139
So it's Algernon Finge with a double F, lowercase double F. Um, and

271
00:14:34.139 --> 00:14:35.399
he's sort of terribly positive.

272
00:14:35.460 --> 00:14:36.779
He's not very nice, you know what I mean?

273
00:14:36.840 --> 00:14:38.759
Yeah, but no, is he particularly bad?

274
00:14:38.820 --> 00:14:43.620
But he's sort of a class member put out of place on a field of

275
00:14:43.620 --> 00:14:45.179
battle and forced to behave.

276
00:14:45.299 --> 00:14:49.259
Like, the reason I feel we have compassion for him or an

277
00:14:49.259 --> 00:14:51.899
understanding with him will go along with him is because he

278
00:14:51.899 --> 00:14:56.580
doesn't really fit with what's going on with the narrative.

279
00:14:56.639 --> 00:15:00.240
He's actually quite a modern nice lad who's put into the wrong

280
00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:00.600
place.

281
00:15:00.659 --> 00:15:04.799
In fact, what happens is you see him mistreating his subordinates

282
00:15:04.799 --> 00:15:06.659
and being really horrible to them?

283
00:15:06.779 --> 00:15:12.360
And then you see polypatronizing him and getting the better of

284
00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:12.539
him.

285
00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:17.940
And then eventually he gets humiliated by her a few more times.

286
00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:20.879
But then he becomes a hero at the end.

287
00:15:20.940 --> 00:15:22.139
And he actually does.

288
00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:26.879
He actually gets a proper arc, proper character development, like

289
00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:28.620
you would in a modern story.

290
00:15:28.740 --> 00:15:30.059
On modern sitcom.

291
00:15:30.179 --> 00:15:33.779
It's like George Siegel and Glenda Jackson in touch of Class, which

292
00:15:33.779 --> 00:15:36.779
came a few years late or any of the Peter Sellers movies, already

293
00:15:36.779 --> 00:15:40.440
any of those story arcs of The Alan the Pussycat, again, which

294
00:15:40.440 --> 00:15:44.039
came out just around this time, Streisand and George Siegel

295
00:15:44.039 --> 00:15:45.600
exactly the same character.

296
00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:47.220
Algernon thinks she's sort of feckless.

297
00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:50.940
When I said nice, nice, meaning the etymology is, you know, the

298
00:15:50.940 --> 00:15:55.259
original definition of nice in mediaeval English was the action of

299
00:15:55.259 --> 00:15:56.519
a knife through flesh.

300
00:15:56.580 --> 00:16:00.059
So it's not, yeah, the knife actually means the cut, the action of

301
00:16:00.059 --> 00:16:00.360
the cut.

302
00:16:00.419 --> 00:16:02.519
It does, it doesn't look like it tells, what does it mean?

303
00:16:02.580 --> 00:16:02.879
does it?

304
00:16:02.940 --> 00:16:04.019
Turn the Latin to a nest.

305
00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:05.159
Your switch means ignorant.

306
00:16:05.220 --> 00:16:08.039
Because...

307
00:16:08.039 --> 00:16:09.299
I'll find the source.

308
00:16:09.299 --> 00:16:09.899
Oh, how perfect.

309
00:16:09.899 --> 00:16:13.919
I'll find the source because there is a point where...

310
00:16:13.919 --> 00:16:15.899
It's a nice means...

311
00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:17.940
It means the action of a cutting.

312
00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:20.940
Dear listener, please stay tuned for the Nice Wars.

313
00:16:21.299 --> 00:16:23.340
We'll cut all this out.

314
00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:26.940
But he's very modern and you can see him in a suit sitting in

315
00:16:26.940 --> 00:16:30.120
Thatcher's Britain just letting horrible things happen to during

316
00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:32.639
the G or post thatcher's Britain in the GFC.

317
00:16:32.700 --> 00:16:35.220
Horrible things happening to people with a mortgage and going, oh

318
00:16:35.220 --> 00:16:35.940
well, it doesn't affect me.

319
00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:38.159
I not in that class and I'm in, it doesn't appear.

320
00:16:38.220 --> 00:16:38.820
But then in my life.

321
00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:41.519
Polly would come along and redeem him and he'd become a tremendous

322
00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:41.759
person.

323
00:16:41.820 --> 00:16:43.679
Not before showing him the area as well.

324
00:16:43.740 --> 00:16:46.740
Yeah, not before humiliating him and calling him algae and teasing

325
00:16:46.740 --> 00:16:47.399
him and things.

326
00:16:47.460 --> 00:16:48.659
And that's really fun.

327
00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:50.759
Like, she's sort of terrifically fun in it.

328
00:16:50.820 --> 00:16:54.299
Ben is sort of fairly unmemorable although he does get to jump in

329
00:16:54.299 --> 00:16:55.919
water, which is sort of terribly exciting.

330
00:16:55.980 --> 00:17:01.620
Yeah, we do get a few blurry tellies of thumb of Ben in a wet t

331
00:17:01.019 --> 00:17:01.620
shirt.

332
00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:03.600
I've got no complaints there.

333
00:17:04.380 --> 00:17:08.400
Is this the moment where we start to see where we start to see

334
00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:09.180
Ben?

335
00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:12.660
Oh, I think really could have given a lot and just isn't served.

336
00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:15.119
Well, this is, I mean, this is, the thing that we haven't

337
00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:17.700
mentioned is that, of course, this is Jamie's 1st story and

338
00:17:17.700 --> 00:17:20.160
Jamie's really barely in it.

339
00:17:20.220 --> 00:17:21.359
He doesn't have that much to do.

340
00:17:21.420 --> 00:17:25.140
He is in it all the way through. was surprised by that. like his

341
00:17:25.140 --> 00:17:27.900
performance is memorable and I think it was just the strength of

342
00:17:27.900 --> 00:17:30.180
his performance that got him through, as we'll see later with John

343
00:17:30.180 --> 00:17:32.759
Levine. you know, you're given a small part and you still give it

344
00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:33.180
your all.

345
00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:34.319
Okay, you can have a regular part.

346
00:17:34.380 --> 00:17:38.400
But yeah, I was surprised by just how little Jamie was in the

347
00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:40.019
story and had to do in the story.

348
00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:41.339
Yeah, yeah.

349
00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:45.599
I was, you couldn't see him being built up to being taken away.

350
00:17:45.660 --> 00:17:46.559
Do you know what I mean?

351
00:17:46.619 --> 00:17:50.880
He's not auditioning in the story itself to be a new companion and

352
00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:54.480
it's just that he happens to be around sort of thing when they're

353
00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:55.740
getting on board the TARDIS.

354
00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:59.279
So it is, you know, it's a little bit surprising.

355
00:17:59.339 --> 00:18:01.559
And it is the beginning of the sidelining of Ben.

356
00:18:01.619 --> 00:18:04.859
I can barely remember anything that Ben really does in this story

357
00:18:04.859 --> 00:18:09.180
and from here on, he has to kind of share time with Jamie until

358
00:18:09.180 --> 00:18:10.440
they eventually get rid of him.

359
00:18:11.099 --> 00:18:15.299
It's been accused of killing off the historicals, but I actually

360
00:18:15.299 --> 00:18:20.579
think it's the most successful historicals as a set piece for the

361
00:18:20.579 --> 00:18:22.140
actors to do something.

362
00:18:22.140 --> 00:18:26.819
Again, that's not exactly immediate, possibly more so now for us

363
00:18:26.819 --> 00:18:30.960
as modern viewers with the results of the Scottish independence

364
00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:33.720
elections just last month as we record this.

365
00:18:33.779 --> 00:18:36.240
But for the viewers at the time.

366
00:18:36.299 --> 00:18:39.059
Simply to say, yes, this is something we've read of.

367
00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:40.259
We've all read Rob Roy.

368
00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:45.059
I mean this is very much, you know, in the field of Walter Scott

369
00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:49.380
and the books that kids would have read before they've seen this

370
00:18:49.380 --> 00:18:49.920
story.

371
00:18:49.980 --> 00:18:51.299
There is an immediacy to it.

372
00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:54.599
There's still friction between the Scottish and the English.

373
00:18:54.660 --> 00:18:55.980
Just look at the football games at the time.

374
00:18:56.039 --> 00:19:01.380
There's still lots of levels at which this has, okay, it doesn't

375
00:19:01.380 --> 00:19:04.500
have buzzing spaceships and solar discs and...

376
00:19:04.619 --> 00:19:05.460
It has no road.

377
00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:08.700
Well, some of the performances, but actually, all told.

378
00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:09.839
It's got lovely nuances.

379
00:19:09.900 --> 00:19:14.160
It's got terrific, um, side players, solicitor Ray is fantastic

380
00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:17.099
and the part players behind them.

381
00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:18.900
I really do enjoy this.

382
00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:20.220
It's a go to audio.

383
00:19:20.279 --> 00:19:24.119
Again, I would never watch these things on the reconstructions

384
00:19:24.119 --> 00:19:26.279
because it's the subtleties of the voices.

385
00:19:26.339 --> 00:19:28.680
The way they've done these 2 in the 60s.

386
00:19:28.740 --> 00:19:32.279
It's British television was British character actors standing in

387
00:19:32.279 --> 00:19:34.380
front of a backdrop talking at each other.

388
00:19:34.440 --> 00:19:37.859
It's still very much as you do Shakespeare or any other.

389
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:41.579
So it works really well as a radio play and I really enjoy it as

390
00:19:41.579 --> 00:19:44.519
such and I listened to it again this week and enjoyed it just as

391
00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:46.859
much as I did many years ago when I 1st heard it.

392
00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:48.599
I think you're right Richard.

393
00:19:48.660 --> 00:19:52.740
It's not so much the death of the historical as it is a nice going

394
00:19:52.740 --> 00:19:55.380
away party for the historical genre.

395
00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:59.460
And I think it does send it off with as much as much of a bang as

396
00:19:59.460 --> 00:19:59.819
possible.

397
00:19:59.940 --> 00:20:03.480
And the last thing I'd like to say about the story is the villain

398
00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:04.079
is a lawyer.

399
00:20:04.140 --> 00:20:04.799
What more do you need?

400
00:20:04.859 --> 00:20:06.960
Yeah, very modern, isn't it?

401
00:20:07.019 --> 00:20:09.839
So can I get the last word, since this is my...

402
00:20:09.900 --> 00:20:14.220
I think that it's a bit shapeless plot-wise, that nothing very

403
00:20:14.220 --> 00:20:14.940
much happens.

404
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:18.660
It doesn't compare to other historicals, like, say the Romans or

405
00:20:18.660 --> 00:20:19.559
the Aztecs.

406
00:20:19.619 --> 00:20:22.799
It does seem to be a lot of faffing about in a prison than a pub

407
00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:23.880
for 4 episodes.

408
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:28.380
And I think the only thing that would that would really get me to

409
00:20:28.380 --> 00:20:31.740
like it would be if we rediscovered it and I got to see Trout and

410
00:20:31.740 --> 00:20:33.059
doing his acting.

411
00:20:33.059 --> 00:20:35.700
Because I think that's very much what it's about.

412
00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:40.500
It's about giving Trout and, you know, his 1st regular story and

413
00:20:40.500 --> 00:20:43.140
giving him a chance to do some fun stuff.

414
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:47.640
And I have no doubt at all that he would be, you know, compelling

415
00:20:47.640 --> 00:20:48.299
to watch.

416
00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:51.960
But without the ability to actually watch a minute, I just thought

417
00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:54.660
the whole thing was a bit a bit tiresome, really.

418
00:20:57.299 --> 00:20:58.980
Very harsh.

419
00:20:59.039 --> 00:20:59.940
It's really enjoyable.

420
00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:01.319
It's a lovely start, though.

421
00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:11.400
Oh, my scaly gilt hats, come on.

422
00:21:11.460 --> 00:21:12.539
That was very exciting.

423
00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:14.640
Oh, dear idea.

424
00:21:14.700 --> 00:21:15.059
Thank you.

425
00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:17.099
Guess where we all are, folks.

426
00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:18.539
Well, where are we?

427
00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:19.740
Where are we?

428
00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:20.700
Where the hell are we?

429
00:21:20.759 --> 00:21:22.200
Where in Atlanta, are we?

430
00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:24.480
You can tell we use salt water.

431
00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:28.440
And the Gillishness. and yes, we're an underwater menace, and

432
00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:31.079
thank you for that beautiful intro, I believe, that we couldn't

433
00:21:31.079 --> 00:21:32.579
have gone any closer to.

434
00:21:32.700 --> 00:21:35.759
Well, before we started the podcast, we were listening to the

435
00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:39.420
score, John Barry's score of the Thunderball, which was the last

436
00:21:39.420 --> 00:21:44.519
Sean Connery 007, mostly an underwater romp that came out pretty

437
00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:48.240
much just before this episode, and you, when you listen to it

438
00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:52.200
again or watch the telly construction snap.coms, It's.

439
00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:54.240
Why?

440
00:21:54.839 --> 00:22:00.599
There's a whole lot of go to, if you're not doing space effects, if

441
00:22:00.599 --> 00:22:04.319
you're not doing, what's that T word we keep using?

442
00:22:04.380 --> 00:22:07.799
If you're not using flying discs and mutant renegades, you're

443
00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:09.059
using, you're going underwater.

444
00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:12.660
Jerry Anderson did it after Fireball XO 5 with Stingray just a

445
00:22:12.660 --> 00:22:13.079
year before.

446
00:22:13.140 --> 00:22:17.940
Um, Irwin Allen after lost in, well, lost in space also did um

447
00:22:17.940 --> 00:22:21.960
voyage to the bottom of the bathtub with the sea view, which is

448
00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:24.420
with Barbara Eaton in the film version of Walter Pigeon.

449
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:27.960
It's actually really dull, but really pretty. pretty to look at.

450
00:22:28.019 --> 00:22:30.839
The film version, nothing happens for about an hour. and then in

451
00:22:30.839 --> 00:22:31.440
the last 10 minutes.

452
00:22:31.500 --> 00:22:32.400
It's like, oh, really?

453
00:22:32.460 --> 00:22:33.599
That person's the traitor?

454
00:22:33.660 --> 00:22:34.079
Wow.

455
00:22:34.140 --> 00:22:36.240
It's proper eating been gorgeous.

456
00:22:36.299 --> 00:22:37.799
There's lots of good reasons to watch it.

457
00:22:37.859 --> 00:22:40.799
So this one's kind of following the whole thing and you're

458
00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:43.559
watching it or listening to it and all I can think of.

459
00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:46.079
And I've heard it many times because I keep wanting to say

460
00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:48.660
thinking to myself, I'm missing something.

461
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:50.039
It's got to be better.

462
00:22:50.099 --> 00:22:51.900
I can't I haven't got it yet.

463
00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:53.160
There's got to be more to this.

464
00:22:53.220 --> 00:22:54.839
Is there?

465
00:22:54.900 --> 00:22:56.940
I still haven't worked that bit out.

466
00:22:57.000 --> 00:22:57.960
It's terrible.

467
00:22:58.140 --> 00:23:00.480
No, it's really shockingly bad.

468
00:23:00.539 --> 00:23:04.380
And it's, it's, it's just terrible B movie rubbish.

469
00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:05.279
Do you know what I mean?

470
00:23:05.339 --> 00:23:09.000
Like we've had, you know, Doctor Who has gone to strange places

471
00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:12.900
and done extraordinary things, even, you know, in the historicals

472
00:23:12.900 --> 00:23:16.019
it's done things that are sort of unprecedented and, you know, at

473
00:23:16.019 --> 00:23:17.220
least attempt to be interesting.

474
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:22.500
But I mean, this is, you know, tying people to volcanos and and

475
00:23:22.500 --> 00:23:27.480
you know, like robed cultists and and absurd, mad scientists and

476
00:23:27.480 --> 00:23:27.779
things.

477
00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:30.779
I mean, the whole thing is just incredibly crummy.

478
00:23:30.839 --> 00:23:33.900
It's sort of reasonably entertaining, I guess.

479
00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:34.920
You know what I mean?

480
00:23:34.980 --> 00:23:37.079
It's sort of funny and sort of fun.

481
00:23:37.140 --> 00:23:42.420
But the premise is so just crummy and uninteresting.

482
00:23:43.259 --> 00:23:47.579
Well, the premise being there's a mad scientist who wants to blow

483
00:23:47.579 --> 00:23:51.779
the world up for no adequately kind of explained reason and he has

484
00:23:51.779 --> 00:23:58.559
control of the people of Atlantis who worshipped Amdo and...

485
00:23:58.619 --> 00:24:02.279
And he lives as usually do, and he lives under a, well, you get to

486
00:24:02.279 --> 00:24:05.940
his under underwater lair, through an extinct volcano on an island

487
00:24:05.940 --> 00:24:08.940
and then whisked away to this extraordinary base.

488
00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:12.480
Isn't this every bond film that came out after 1965?

489
00:24:12.539 --> 00:24:15.779
These are trying to do Ken Adam on a Ray Qic budget.

490
00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:20.460
Yeah, but as plot goes, even the fish people, which whom we've

491
00:24:20.460 --> 00:24:23.700
cited so far, please have a look, if we can put an image up, please

492
00:24:23.700 --> 00:24:25.140
have a look at some of the images.

493
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:28.380
They're actually not that much different from the 1st cybermen, and

494
00:24:28.380 --> 00:24:31.619
we didn't criticise them for having stretchy masks and behaviour.

495
00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:34.500
Well, I don't think it's so much the stretchy marks. stretching

496
00:24:34.500 --> 00:24:34.980
masks.

497
00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:37.619
I think it's really the gills at the side.

498
00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:41.039
It's a very obvious join between the mask and the face because the

499
00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:42.480
mask doesn't cover all of the phase.

500
00:24:42.539 --> 00:24:44.700
And the Kirby wires...

501
00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:46.019
You had young lady view.

502
00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:46.440
It's true.

503
00:24:46.500 --> 00:24:49.619
You had very stingray, but you had young lady viewers writing in

504
00:24:49.619 --> 00:24:52.140
to the BBC asking how to make the costumes.

505
00:24:52.200 --> 00:24:54.299
It was kind of popular for yeah, yeah.

506
00:24:54.359 --> 00:24:58.859
Well, they look like a very sort of funky 1920s bathing outfit.

507
00:24:59.880 --> 00:25:01.680
Could I swimming?

508
00:25:01.740 --> 00:25:03.720
And it's got the 1st one that's got a whole new score.

509
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:05.519
Stanley Simpson, isn't it?

510
00:25:05.579 --> 00:25:07.140
Mind you, it's...

511
00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:09.119
Well, it's pretty confronting.

512
00:25:09.180 --> 00:25:10.920
It's a very romophone band.

513
00:25:10.980 --> 00:25:11.700
It's a common phone.

514
00:25:11.700 --> 00:25:14.039
It is, it feels very short, Chmele, again.

515
00:25:14.099 --> 00:25:20.039
We've got sense of very old SF brought up into the present as they

516
00:25:20.039 --> 00:25:25.259
were doing with design and with architecture and interiors and

517
00:25:25.259 --> 00:25:28.619
graphics at the time, looking back to the term of the century, so

518
00:25:28.619 --> 00:25:32.880
the William Morris period, of George Mellis was a part, if you

519
00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:35.099
like, of that very baroque.

520
00:25:35.160 --> 00:25:37.200
This is kind of like underwater steampunk.

521
00:25:37.259 --> 00:25:38.339
It should be fantastic.

522
00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:40.380
It does do a lot of 007.

523
00:25:40.619 --> 00:25:45.539
Joseph first, who's the fulfilling your speaking of, he's got a

524
00:25:45.539 --> 00:25:49.319
reputation for being appalling in this and just so Maximilian

525
00:25:49.319 --> 00:25:50.700
Vaughn skill and over the top.

526
00:25:50.759 --> 00:25:53.579
But everyone performing in the 60s was doing this.

527
00:25:53.640 --> 00:25:56.759
You look at a look at, we mentioned Walter Pidgeon, who was also

528
00:25:56.759 --> 00:26:03.420
famous for the Forbidden Planet as the, if you like, the Prospero

529
00:26:03.420 --> 00:26:03.960
character.

530
00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:09.660
I'm Francis's father, who's, you know, discovered the lost city

531
00:26:09.660 --> 00:26:10.380
under the ground.

532
00:26:10.440 --> 00:26:11.880
It's pretty much the same part, actually.

533
00:26:11.940 --> 00:26:14.039
But, you know, again, we had Von Skull.

534
00:26:14.099 --> 00:26:18.660
We had, um, We had all kinds of silly villains, Blowfeld, had yet

535
00:26:18.660 --> 00:26:20.880
to be revealed in the 007 films.

536
00:26:20.940 --> 00:26:24.420
But we, this is the standard for the time.

537
00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:25.740
So it should be working.

538
00:26:25.799 --> 00:26:30.119
Yeah, I mean, you know, it is it's sort of entertaining, but it is

539
00:26:30.119 --> 00:26:32.099
something a bit tired about it.

540
00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:36.180
And I don't mean Joseph 1st, you know, hilarious villain, because

541
00:26:36.180 --> 00:26:38.099
we all love a hilarious camp villain.

542
00:26:38.099 --> 00:26:42.119
And that, that cliffang into episode 3 is brilliantly funny.

543
00:26:42.180 --> 00:26:43.319
I mean, it is terrific.

544
00:26:43.380 --> 00:26:47.279
And nasty, Camille, do it together. two, three.

545
00:26:47.339 --> 00:26:49.799
Nothing is about...

546
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:50.460
Stop me now.

547
00:26:50.519 --> 00:26:51.720
It's wonderful.

548
00:26:51.779 --> 00:26:52.200
There you go.

549
00:26:52.259 --> 00:26:53.940
You wanna do it at home yourself, don't you?

550
00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:56.880
You know, this thing ran over budget.

551
00:26:56.940 --> 00:26:58.619
Do you remember by how much this thing?

552
00:26:58.680 --> 00:26:59.700
How many episodes of four?

553
00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:00.720
45 P.

554
00:27:00.779 --> 00:27:01.500
It's only four.

555
00:27:01.559 --> 00:27:03.960
Well, the average runner, and it happened with Doctor Who, because

556
00:27:03.960 --> 00:27:06.900
it got the same budget as a standard drama show, and there's

557
00:27:06.900 --> 00:27:09.960
nothing standard as if you'd been following us, too, isn't there?

558
00:27:10.019 --> 00:27:12.240
There's been nothing about it that's been standard.

559
00:27:12.299 --> 00:27:13.140
The average was £200.

560
00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:17.519
This run over budget, 2200 pounds.

561
00:27:17.579 --> 00:27:18.960
Goodness.

562
00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:20.940
There's lots of expensive stuff with water and things.

563
00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:23.819
Yeah, I suppose that might have been it. like waterproofing the

564
00:27:23.819 --> 00:27:24.720
set and whatnot.

565
00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:28.019
Yeah, it's like they do with the sting, right?

566
00:27:28.079 --> 00:27:30.539
I mean, there's some beautiful sets, but again, you just don't see

567
00:27:30.539 --> 00:27:32.160
because we haven't found them.

568
00:27:32.220 --> 00:27:35.400
Oh, we haven't released yet that episode two, have we?

569
00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:36.660
Yeah, episode 2 though.

570
00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:40.380
Oh, no, we have, there's no possible way we could see.

571
00:27:40.380 --> 00:27:41.759
Although it's very good.

572
00:27:44.819 --> 00:27:45.000
Oh.

573
00:27:45.059 --> 00:27:46.680
No idea what's happening there.

574
00:27:46.740 --> 00:27:49.019
It was meant to be released earlier this year.

575
00:27:49.079 --> 00:27:51.359
There were going to be episodes one and 4 animated.

576
00:27:51.420 --> 00:27:55.019
The animation house we were working on it have confirmed that the

577
00:27:55.019 --> 00:27:58.559
BBC has stopped, asked them to stop work on the animation.

578
00:27:58.619 --> 00:28:03.480
Last I heard, someone I know on Facebook had emailed BBC customer

579
00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:07.079
service who said Underwater Man should be released in some form

580
00:28:07.079 --> 00:28:08.160
early next year.

581
00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:10.980
That means I don't know.

582
00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:15.839
The whole BBC line, the whole classic Doctor Who BBC line, like

583
00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:19.500
last year, they released Terror of the Zygons, and so that was the

584
00:28:19.500 --> 00:28:21.480
last fully extant story.

585
00:28:21.539 --> 00:28:24.359
So I think every episode that exists apart from Underwater Menace

586
00:28:24.359 --> 00:28:26.880
2. is now available on DVD.

587
00:28:26.940 --> 00:28:28.859
Which is a good achievement, you know.

588
00:28:28.920 --> 00:28:31.380
Well, I mean, it started in 2001, I think.

589
00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:35.099
Yeah, they took them 12 years as opposed to 21 on video.

590
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:40.740
But the whole thing just stopped and there was no announcement.

591
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:41.579
No, no.

592
00:28:41.579 --> 00:28:45.119
I still checked the website every so often to see if anything's

593
00:28:45.119 --> 00:28:47.400
coming out, but it was a, it really fizzled out.

594
00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:50.039
I was in the uh, in the most depressing way, I think.

595
00:28:50.099 --> 00:28:51.059
It didn't.

596
00:28:51.180 --> 00:28:53.579
It's sad because I want to see, this is one that I still don't

597
00:28:53.579 --> 00:28:57.000
quite get why, why it appears to not be working.

598
00:28:57.059 --> 00:28:59.579
Just the 1st we've mentioned before.

599
00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:04.740
It had a reasonably starring role in a big picture, 55 days in

600
00:29:04.740 --> 00:29:06.299
Peking before he made this.

601
00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:07.799
He was a legit actor.

602
00:29:07.859 --> 00:29:12.660
He works really well with Paddy in those scenes when Trump has

603
00:29:12.660 --> 00:29:15.779
been kind of overdoing it and maybe, you know, getting a bit

604
00:29:15.779 --> 00:29:19.319
tenancy in the strength of his performance, but then when you put

605
00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:23.039
him up against Professor Zarov, you've got that point where

606
00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:26.700
Patrick, because he's such a good actor, realises if somebody's

607
00:29:26.700 --> 00:29:30.180
chewing the scenes, don't go and dislocate your jaw trying to

608
00:29:30.180 --> 00:29:34.319
match him, step right back and almost whisper and underplay, and

609
00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:36.059
you get real tension between the 2 of them.

610
00:29:36.119 --> 00:29:37.680
In that episode, none of us have seen.

611
00:29:37.740 --> 00:29:40.440
No, no, we're allowed to have seen that because that was a bit.

612
00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:43.920
The confrontation between Zaroff and Trouton in episode 2 was

613
00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:45.839
actually released on the BBC. website.

614
00:29:45.900 --> 00:29:50.220
And so you can see Trouton, Trouton underplays it fabulously

615
00:29:50.220 --> 00:29:50.519
well.

616
00:29:50.579 --> 00:29:53.880
You know, it's that why do you want to destroy the world?

617
00:29:53.940 --> 00:29:56.279
You know, again, that's a problem.

618
00:29:56.339 --> 00:29:58.980
There's no reason for it in the televised version of it.

619
00:29:59.039 --> 00:29:59.700
Why wouldn't you?

620
00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:00.839
It's so super fun.

621
00:30:00.900 --> 00:30:03.839
And you know, I'm following and I have a slightly Germanic

622
00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:04.140
accent.

623
00:30:04.200 --> 00:30:07.680
So I've got that really cool because that's what you do in the

624
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:08.339
60s.

625
00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:11.819
Yeah, that's, yeah, in the script version.

626
00:30:11.880 --> 00:30:14.220
There's a whole reason for that and it's explained.

627
00:30:14.279 --> 00:30:15.779
His wife died in a car crash.

628
00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:17.279
It's just not transmitted.

629
00:30:17.400 --> 00:30:18.240
And their young child.

630
00:30:18.299 --> 00:30:21.119
Yeah, yeah, a young child is killed in the car crash, and they

631
00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:23.640
don't include it because it's too confrontational for a junior

632
00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:24.180
audience.

633
00:30:24.420 --> 00:30:27.599
The funny thing about, well, maybe...

634
00:30:27.660 --> 00:30:27.960
Really?

635
00:30:28.019 --> 00:30:30.299
I just don't think it sits very well in an episode where people

636
00:30:30.299 --> 00:30:31.200
address as plastic.

637
00:30:31.259 --> 00:30:33.299
It would have made a bit more sense.

638
00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:37.680
The interesting thing about that is 2 years later, when Kevin

639
00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:39.240
Stoney was playing Tobias Vaughan.

640
00:30:39.299 --> 00:30:42.420
He was trying to get a handle on why this character would act in

641
00:30:42.420 --> 00:30:42.720
this way.

642
00:30:42.779 --> 00:30:46.380
And he came up with the idea that Spice Von's family were killed

643
00:30:46.380 --> 00:30:47.279
in a car crash.

644
00:30:47.339 --> 00:30:49.200
It's the go to, isn't it?

645
00:30:49.259 --> 00:30:51.299
It's Stroker and UFO. or something?

646
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:52.140
Just look up those.

647
00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:54.599
Well, no one wore seatbelts until...

648
00:30:54.660 --> 00:30:59.279
I suppose if you look at, you know, even stuff like Astro Boy, the

649
00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:02.700
motivation for the villain in that is that his son, his son was

650
00:31:02.700 --> 00:31:04.740
tragically killed in a car accident.

651
00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:07.500
You need to get some rubber bumpers on those cars.

652
00:31:07.500 --> 00:31:12.000
So, further to Joseph first, Joseph first was actually in a bond

653
00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:12.359
film.

654
00:31:12.420 --> 00:31:16.079
He was, and later on, he was in, for, correct me, if I'm a

655
00:31:16.079 --> 00:31:19.259
dermatographer, playing apparently Blowfeld's mistress.

656
00:31:19.319 --> 00:31:22.200
It seems, well, Blowfield, London, like, and that's the only Bond

657
00:31:22.200 --> 00:31:23.640
film where Blowfield does drag.

658
00:31:23.700 --> 00:31:25.019
Yes, that's true.

659
00:31:25.079 --> 00:31:26.400
That's played by.

660
00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:28.440
That's great.

661
00:31:28.500 --> 00:31:30.900
Who is a brilliant actor, but as blowfeld?

662
00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:32.160
You're just going, what?

663
00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:34.500
Crazy, that film.

664
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:35.579
It's not very good.

665
00:31:35.640 --> 00:31:37.619
Well, it's this, that's my point.

666
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:39.119
It's no worse than this.

667
00:31:39.180 --> 00:31:41.759
And of course, Joseph 1st we own him in our country because he

668
00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:45.059
ended up his last role I ever saw him in was the mid-70s

669
00:31:45.059 --> 00:31:48.660
blockbuster soap, and yet it was because it's the soap that

670
00:31:48.660 --> 00:31:52.380
actually started the big selling to the UK called the young

671
00:31:52.380 --> 00:31:52.859
doctors.

672
00:31:52.920 --> 00:31:54.299
In the younger.

673
00:31:54.359 --> 00:31:55.319
He was the young doctors.

674
00:31:55.380 --> 00:31:55.799
He was a doctor.

675
00:31:55.859 --> 00:31:58.019
I don't think he was Gwen Plum running the snack club.

676
00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:02.400
But with Marty Roan and Delaney and Mark Holden and all the little

677
00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:05.940
everybody else who later came to something big in the 70s or 80s

678
00:32:05.940 --> 00:32:06.779
are singers or whatever.

679
00:32:06.839 --> 00:32:08.759
Yeah, there was Joseph first.

680
00:32:08.819 --> 00:32:13.680
No, he spent his, he spent his last years here, in fact, he passed

681
00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:18.660
away here. quite recently, in the last couple of years, and the

682
00:32:18.660 --> 00:32:21.839
loose cannon reconstruction includes an interview with him, which

683
00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:27.240
was arranged by Dallas Jones and Dwayne Bunny of the Doctor Club

684
00:32:27.240 --> 00:32:27.839
of Australia.

685
00:32:27.900 --> 00:32:30.420
I believe Dwayne's now moved to Hobart.

686
00:32:30.480 --> 00:32:31.859
But yeah, they arranged that interview.

687
00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:35.279
Joseph 1st speaks very fondly about his time on doctor and working

688
00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:36.119
with Patrick Troughton.

689
00:32:36.180 --> 00:32:38.640
So if nothing else, he had a wow.

690
00:32:38.700 --> 00:32:40.259
I hope he did.

691
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:41.160
One person did.

692
00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:43.680
I think we can really blame whatever's going wrong.

693
00:32:43.740 --> 00:32:46.440
I don't know if you can look at the director.

694
00:32:46.500 --> 00:32:47.579
That was Julia Smith.

695
00:32:47.640 --> 00:32:50.940
The last one she'd done was the smugglers, because they obviously

696
00:32:50.940 --> 00:32:55.500
trusted her with location shoots and budgets, cough, before that.

697
00:32:55.559 --> 00:32:59.039
I think the smuggles, we've talked about it before, from what we

698
00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:00.180
can see, looks gorgeous.

699
00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:01.200
Yeah, agree.

700
00:33:01.259 --> 00:33:04.079
And they thought, yeah, she can pull off something that needs to

701
00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:04.920
be.

702
00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:08.640
Okay, there are 2 reasons why this story was the big one and was

703
00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:12.539
allowed to overrun the way that it did budget wise and whatever.

704
00:33:12.599 --> 00:33:15.960
It is Innis Lloyd's, this is the Doctor Who I want to do.

705
00:33:16.019 --> 00:33:21.539
It was just like we had John Wiles wanting to do the arc, the arc

706
00:33:21.539 --> 00:33:24.660
thank you, as being, you know, to go, I don't think that was

707
00:33:24.660 --> 00:33:25.980
entirely unsuccessful.

708
00:33:26.039 --> 00:33:29.039
Yeah, I hate, but the arc is fine, but yeah, we just discussed

709
00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:29.339
that.

710
00:33:29.339 --> 00:33:31.500
It's just execution.

711
00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:34.920
And people we know, our friends who were young viewers at the time

712
00:33:34.920 --> 00:33:38.519
say that that's one of the 2 or 3 they remember very clearly as

713
00:33:38.519 --> 00:33:41.339
viewers in Australia from the web planets, the other one

714
00:33:41.339 --> 00:33:41.700
actually.

715
00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:43.380
So it certainly had a visual strength.

716
00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:47.039
They wanted this to be potently on the level of drama.

717
00:33:47.099 --> 00:33:50.400
Let's not forget this whole season, and this will, I think, affect

718
00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:55.319
the rest of this podcast once we look at it, was just like Emma

719
00:33:55.319 --> 00:33:58.619
Peel's, Diana Riggs colour season of the Avengers.

720
00:33:58.680 --> 00:34:03.420
This was the one they were trying to, Inisloyd was trying to sell

721
00:34:03.420 --> 00:34:04.619
to the US.

722
00:34:04.680 --> 00:34:09.719
So everything was a marketable blanket product with a one sentence

723
00:34:09.719 --> 00:34:14.159
idea that, it's kind of, you might want to say the way we watched

724
00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:16.380
Doctor Who now in the Moffat era.

725
00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:20.280
Stephen Moffatt did say the series 7, what he wanted to put out

726
00:34:20.280 --> 00:34:23.519
were episodes, which were like mini feature films in themselves

727
00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:25.980
each of them with a tagline, a central idea.

728
00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:27.480
So yeah, you can definitely say that.

729
00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:29.460
And I think you can fairly say that because there's nothing wrong

730
00:34:29.460 --> 00:34:30.960
with that idea on its own.

731
00:34:31.019 --> 00:34:32.579
How do you pull it off?

732
00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:37.739
Most of the time in the Trouton era, the one sentence pitch is

733
00:34:37.739 --> 00:34:41.760
monsters of some kind, invader, base of some kind. you know what I

734
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:41.940
mean?

735
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:44.219
And we haven't quite settled down to that yet.

736
00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:48.360
So we don't get the variety that we get even in the reasonably

737
00:34:48.360 --> 00:34:49.920
forgettable series 7, I think.

738
00:34:49.980 --> 00:34:51.960
But thank you for bringing that up.

739
00:34:52.019 --> 00:34:57.719
Because the repetition of the plot, every single story, the

740
00:34:57.719 --> 00:35:00.840
cottage under siege, the base under siege that we end up getting

741
00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:05.880
is very much the Avengers style and when it gets really apart from

742
00:35:05.880 --> 00:35:09.119
it's only because the performances are mesmerising as our actors

743
00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:12.179
are in this, but the actual plot lines are execrable.

744
00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:15.719
It's the same dole down thing because that's what Americans

745
00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:17.159
networks wanted.

746
00:35:17.219 --> 00:35:20.039
The whole point of syndication is, mix them up out of order.

747
00:35:20.099 --> 00:35:21.179
It's the same plot.

748
00:35:21.239 --> 00:35:24.599
The casual viewer, you're not going to get I'm totally unlike

749
00:35:24.599 --> 00:35:28.079
British and Australian audiences where you turn on and just keep

750
00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:28.559
watching.

751
00:35:28.619 --> 00:35:33.000
US television didn't work in that way and you would jump in and

752
00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:34.380
out maybe a few times a season.

753
00:35:34.440 --> 00:35:37.980
They wanted something that was comfortable and predigested.

754
00:35:38.039 --> 00:35:41.639
So the whole thing, as we'll get to later on with a Doctor Who

755
00:35:41.639 --> 00:35:45.480
based under siege story, was the deliberate thing to appeal to a

756
00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:46.619
foreign market.

757
00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:52.019
The other thing I wanted to say then is that another reason you

758
00:35:52.019 --> 00:35:54.599
might want to put the failing down to is just the writer and the

759
00:35:54.599 --> 00:35:56.039
director who was having a hard time.

760
00:35:56.099 --> 00:35:59.039
We're just talking about Julia Smith and how she was, I would say

761
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:00.360
successful on the smugglers.

762
00:36:00.420 --> 00:36:03.059
But in this one, she was spotted.

763
00:36:03.119 --> 00:36:06.599
Anika Wills talks about it in a biography, catching Juliet crying

764
00:36:06.599 --> 00:36:10.139
after the recording of an episode in a corridor, because things

765
00:36:10.139 --> 00:36:11.639
were going so badly for her.

766
00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:16.500
Patrick Trouton was calling her names on set and the 3 junior

767
00:36:16.500 --> 00:36:16.860
leagues.

768
00:36:16.920 --> 00:36:19.860
And Anaka did join in and freely admits to it.

769
00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:22.800
And because the 3 junior junior leagues thought this utterly

770
00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:24.179
ridiculous, unquote.

771
00:36:24.239 --> 00:36:27.360
So it wasn't really going well for any of the performances, running

772
00:36:27.360 --> 00:36:30.659
performers or production, running horribly off course.

773
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:35.820
And the writer, Jeffrey Orme, I don't think, quite had that well

774
00:36:35.820 --> 00:36:39.659
of Terry Southern style or Michael Willard.

775
00:36:39.719 --> 00:36:43.440
Well, you look at the other writers for the bond pictures or the

776
00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:49.380
rom-coms of the 60s of the time that just put in a little bit more

777
00:36:49.380 --> 00:36:51.780
walks into it and made that kind of level work.

778
00:36:51.780 --> 00:36:55.260
Jeffrey Orme was famous for pretty much for one thing.

779
00:36:55.320 --> 00:37:01.380
It was the old Mother Riley films which were hugely popular cinema

780
00:37:01.380 --> 00:37:03.780
drag acts of the 1930s.

781
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:05.940
They were Browns Boys.

782
00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:10.619
Well, but without actually, yeah, really much like that.

783
00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:14.039
Maybe without some of the batty humour, but not far off.

784
00:37:14.099 --> 00:37:18.840
They were so popular that they ran opposite season 6 of Doctor Who

785
00:37:18.840 --> 00:37:23.579
on the ITV regionals, and were matching Joe 19 in Land of the

786
00:37:23.579 --> 00:37:27.659
Giants for ratings. and matching Doctor Who as well.

787
00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:31.320
So yeah, Jeffrey Orm was seen as a shortest thing.

788
00:37:31.739 --> 00:37:34.380
I still don't get why this doesn't work.

789
00:37:34.440 --> 00:37:35.579
Nathan, what do you think?

790
00:37:35.639 --> 00:37:36.840
Well, I mean, I think...

791
00:37:36.840 --> 00:37:39.659
When you say it doesn't work.

792
00:37:39.719 --> 00:37:42.780
It's not completely lacking in entertainment value.

793
00:37:42.840 --> 00:37:47.460
They're exhausting sort of cliches and things and peril and it

794
00:37:47.460 --> 00:37:49.019
doesn't serve poly very well.

795
00:37:49.019 --> 00:37:50.460
Yeah, not at all.

796
00:37:50.519 --> 00:37:53.400
I'll come to that in a minute with the novelisation, but please do

797
00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:54.000
go on.

798
00:37:54.119 --> 00:37:57.360
But there are some things that it is attempting to do.

799
00:37:57.480 --> 00:38:00.480
Like it tries to be sort of visually interesting in a way that

800
00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:02.460
compares to Web Planet.

801
00:38:02.519 --> 00:38:03.780
I don't think it pulls it off.

802
00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:07.079
But the strange fish people ballet is an attempt to put something

803
00:38:07.079 --> 00:38:11.159
up. on television that is unusual.

804
00:38:11.219 --> 00:38:12.179
Do you know what I mean?

805
00:38:12.239 --> 00:38:16.380
And like, you know, I don't think it comes off, but it's an

806
00:38:16.380 --> 00:38:16.739
attempt.

807
00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:21.420
And then I think, This season, you know, there's at least this

808
00:38:21.420 --> 00:38:26.340
story and another one coming up that have themes of kind of, you

809
00:38:26.340 --> 00:38:28.199
know, economic revolution.

810
00:38:28.260 --> 00:38:33.360
And so, um, the fish people who are essentially slaves, who

811
00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:40.260
provide food for the people of Atlantis are exploited, and they're

812
00:38:40.260 --> 00:38:45.780
encouraged to strike by, you know, a number of working class

813
00:38:45.780 --> 00:38:49.380
characters, the Irish guy and Van and the other guy.

814
00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:50.280
Do you know what I mean?

815
00:38:50.340 --> 00:38:54.360
And so there is a sort of political kind of undercurrent to it.

816
00:38:54.420 --> 00:38:58.199
It is, in fact, that eventually sort of, you know, leads to the

817
00:38:58.199 --> 00:38:59.159
resolution of the story.

818
00:38:59.219 --> 00:39:00.179
So I don't know.

819
00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:02.880
I think there are some, there are fitfully interesting things in

820
00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:06.420
it, but it's all just a bit of a giant mess, really.

821
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:09.539
I do gather that apparently during script writing.

822
00:39:09.599 --> 00:39:13.800
Geoffrey Horn became quite ill because this was, I think, the 3rd

823
00:39:13.800 --> 00:39:15.179
idea he pitched.

824
00:39:15.239 --> 00:39:18.599
So that could go away to explaining some of the script's

825
00:39:18.599 --> 00:39:18.900
problems.

826
00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:23.579
I mean, a big part of it that doesn't work is something you

827
00:39:23.579 --> 00:39:25.260
touched on earlier, Richard.

828
00:39:25.500 --> 00:39:27.420
So Joseph 1st is on one level of performance.

829
00:39:27.480 --> 00:39:30.480
And it's fine with Patrick because Patrick responds to that with a

830
00:39:30.480 --> 00:39:33.239
complimentary, but opposite performance.

831
00:39:33.300 --> 00:39:35.699
Colin Jevons is also on a similar level.

832
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:38.280
I think this is his 1st appearance in Doctor Who.

833
00:39:38.340 --> 00:39:40.199
He would go on to become a very familiar face.

834
00:39:40.260 --> 00:39:41.400
He's one of the surgeons.

835
00:39:41.460 --> 00:39:46.800
He's not, he's, um, uh, he's like Max Caudlebline in the, in this

836
00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:47.340
TV show.

837
00:39:47.400 --> 00:39:49.079
He doesn't do another Doctor Who, does he?

838
00:39:49.139 --> 00:39:50.280
Oh, well, not quite.

839
00:39:50.340 --> 00:39:51.360
He does canine and company.

840
00:39:51.420 --> 00:39:52.739
That's right.

841
00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:57.059
But that's the, he's always got this method of acting where he's

842
00:39:57.059 --> 00:39:58.500
overacting without even trying.

843
00:39:58.559 --> 00:40:00.900
I think it's he's just got this very distinctive voice.

844
00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:02.039
So his scenes are fine.

845
00:40:02.099 --> 00:40:06.480
But everyone else, all the other supporting cast are trying to get

846
00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:08.099
quite naturalistic performances.

847
00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:09.719
And that's the thing.

848
00:40:09.780 --> 00:40:12.420
I actually think Joseph 1st isn't the problem with this story.

849
00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:15.420
I think it's the fact that everyone else is trying to take it far

850
00:40:15.420 --> 00:40:15.960
too seriously.

851
00:40:16.019 --> 00:40:16.980
Exactly.

852
00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:18.179
It's meant to be a romp.

853
00:40:18.239 --> 00:40:18.780
Yeah.

854
00:40:18.780 --> 00:40:21.719
But there is a darker side to this story.

855
00:40:21.719 --> 00:40:24.119
And I think I've mentioned it before on the podcast, but a couple

856
00:40:24.119 --> 00:40:28.860
of years ago, I was making my way through reading the Trouton

857
00:40:28.860 --> 00:40:29.760
Target novels.

858
00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:32.400
And I came across something quite startling in the underwater

859
00:40:32.400 --> 00:40:32.940
menace.

860
00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:34.860
So I'm going to read you an extract here.

861
00:40:35.460 --> 00:40:38.460
Zarov ran at the priest with the spear.

862
00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:42.000
The weapon pierced Ramo's rib cage, and he fell down with a

863
00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:43.320
terrible cry of agony.

864
00:40:43.380 --> 00:40:44.820
Polly screamed.

865
00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:49.500
Zarov turned round instinctively at the sound, and slapped her

866
00:40:49.500 --> 00:40:51.119
across the face, shutting her up.

867
00:40:51.179 --> 00:40:52.380
Hooray.

868
00:40:52.440 --> 00:40:55.139
Oh, that's true for casual sexism.

869
00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:57.059
The thing is violent.

870
00:40:57.179 --> 00:41:00.059
I think it's hard to tell whether that is in the original script

871
00:41:00.059 --> 00:41:01.739
or not, but I'd say it probably was.

872
00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:06.239
And you kind of go, okay, 1966, 1967.

873
00:41:06.420 --> 00:41:07.079
It's not so great.

874
00:41:07.139 --> 00:41:11.400
This novelisation was written in the late 80s by Nigel Robinson.

875
00:41:11.460 --> 00:41:15.900
Now, and even so, you can then kind of squint and go, okay, but

876
00:41:15.900 --> 00:41:18.179
it's the villain hitting a woman we're not meant to like that.

877
00:41:18.239 --> 00:41:20.880
Well, then we get this bit.

878
00:41:20.940 --> 00:41:25.079
It's no use, Jamie. will never make it, cried Polly, her eyes

879
00:41:25.079 --> 00:41:25.800
brimming with tears.

880
00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:27.960
We're never going to get out of here.

881
00:41:28.019 --> 00:41:31.139
Of course we are, Jamie reassured her firmly.

882
00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:33.119
One more minute and then we'll be out of this.

883
00:41:33.179 --> 00:41:33.599
You will see.

884
00:41:33.659 --> 00:41:36.059
Polly shook her head in despair.

885
00:41:36.119 --> 00:41:39.239
The dark oppressiveness of the tunnels through which they had been

886
00:41:39.239 --> 00:41:40.920
climbing was taking its toll on her.

887
00:41:40.980 --> 00:41:43.920
And another, and another, and another.

888
00:41:43.980 --> 00:41:45.000
Jamie, don't you see?

889
00:41:45.059 --> 00:41:46.199
We're buried in knives.

890
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:48.119
She broke down.

891
00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:51.659
Oh, but there's more.

892
00:41:51.719 --> 00:41:53.099
There's always more.

893
00:41:53.159 --> 00:41:56.039
She broke down into an uncontrollable fit of sobs.

894
00:41:56.099 --> 00:41:57.539
Out of desperation.

895
00:41:57.599 --> 00:42:00.900
Jamie slapped the hysterical female across the face.

896
00:42:00.960 --> 00:42:02.940
That shut her up.

897
00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:05.820
Now come on, Polly, he said gently.

898
00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:06.900
There's still a chance.

899
00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:08.340
Get up and follow me.

900
00:42:08.519 --> 00:42:13.739
So not only has one of our heroes responded to quite a genuine

901
00:42:13.739 --> 00:42:16.380
concern of Polly's by slap air across the face, he's clearly

902
00:42:16.380 --> 00:42:18.719
slapped her so hard, she's fallen to the floor.

903
00:42:18.780 --> 00:42:20.760
Oh, good God.

904
00:42:20.760 --> 00:42:25.260
I mean, she's terrible in this story, but it clearly even worse in

905
00:42:25.260 --> 00:42:26.940
that novelisation.

906
00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:30.179
She's a blubbering idiot and she was really cool before.

907
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:32.639
She was sort of fat and cool and smart.

908
00:42:32.699 --> 00:42:34.619
She out with Christy.

909
00:42:34.679 --> 00:42:37.079
You know, she outwits algae.

910
00:42:37.139 --> 00:42:39.179
She outwits, Tom, you know, she's smart.

911
00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:42.000
She's the moral conscience in the 10th planet.

912
00:42:42.059 --> 00:42:43.199
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

913
00:42:43.260 --> 00:42:46.380
She ends up to the sidemen and has that argument.

914
00:42:46.440 --> 00:42:50.699
She understands regeneration way before Ben does, you know.

915
00:42:50.760 --> 00:42:57.599
And yeah, she's just reduced in this story to someone overly

916
00:42:57.599 --> 00:43:02.099
emotional and far more weakly emotional than she was in previous

917
00:43:02.099 --> 00:43:04.920
stories, but not only that, punished for being emotional.

918
00:43:04.980 --> 00:43:10.079
Well, I mean, it is that it's that B movie 50s thing.

919
00:43:10.199 --> 00:43:13.619
What was that, um, the Flash Gordon super soldiers thing where

920
00:43:13.619 --> 00:43:16.980
someone's being forcibly married to being the merciless?

921
00:43:16.980 --> 00:43:22.739
and she just, she's, I thought, I thought dad was like drugged or

922
00:43:22.739 --> 00:43:25.559
unconscious or something, but she's just so passive that she

923
00:43:25.559 --> 00:43:27.840
literally does nothing at all.

924
00:43:27.900 --> 00:43:30.000
She's not been hypnotised or anything.

925
00:43:30.059 --> 00:43:32.579
She just sits there while the men fight over her.

926
00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:36.840
In the Mike Hodges, 1979 Flash Gordon version, she is drugged.

927
00:43:36.900 --> 00:43:39.480
She's given an elixir to make it all a hell of a lot more pleasant

928
00:43:39.480 --> 00:43:40.500
than it's going to be otherwise.

929
00:43:40.559 --> 00:43:43.860
Kind of like you need to be to watch the construction of this

930
00:43:43.860 --> 00:43:44.099
story.

931
00:43:44.340 --> 00:43:47.280
But it does work under those conditions I think.

932
00:43:47.340 --> 00:43:51.179
So I suppose the end result of that is...

933
00:43:51.179 --> 00:43:54.480
Underwater mass was made about 20 years too late.

934
00:43:54.539 --> 00:43:58.679
Yes, it was, or maybe too early or just without the...

935
00:43:58.739 --> 00:44:00.059
It's interesting to see, isn't it?

936
00:44:00.119 --> 00:44:04.440
We look at such heroic failures, if you like, as being those

937
00:44:04.440 --> 00:44:09.659
points of Nadirism in these seasons, but actually they're the ones

938
00:44:09.659 --> 00:44:13.739
we spend the most time discussing, and the ones that end up maybe

939
00:44:13.739 --> 00:44:16.380
being the most interesting for why they go wrong, because you can

940
00:44:16.380 --> 00:44:21.239
see how it could be fantastic with just a few little tweaks, and

941
00:44:21.239 --> 00:44:23.519
there's something intriguing about when things don't quite work.

942
00:44:23.579 --> 00:44:25.679
Maybe that's why we've Doctor Who fans.

943
00:44:43.739 --> 00:44:45.719
How the hell do you want it?

944
00:44:48.599 --> 00:44:52.440
Okay, so, so, was that Yetis or Cyber people?

945
00:44:52.500 --> 00:44:54.179
In a horrible day now?

946
00:44:54.179 --> 00:45:01.079
So, in fact, it's very hard to tell who these robot things are

947
00:45:01.079 --> 00:45:03.239
because we've never seen them in Doctor Who before.

948
00:45:03.300 --> 00:45:07.860
They don't look anything like the mondass people who...

949
00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:09.360
They're not the same at all, are they?

950
00:45:09.420 --> 00:45:09.960
No.

951
00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:14.940
And this means we also start to get David Banks wonderful fan

952
00:45:14.940 --> 00:45:17.519
reccoming of the Spider-Man with this story.

953
00:45:17.579 --> 00:45:19.380
No, tough look.

954
00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:21.960
I think it's brilliant, but do go on. don't know that one.

955
00:45:22.019 --> 00:45:22.679
What is that one?

956
00:45:22.739 --> 00:45:25.739
He wrote a giant book like in the 90s, right?

957
00:45:25.800 --> 00:45:29.940
Explaining how, you know, the reason that the sidemen look

958
00:45:29.940 --> 00:45:36.179
different all the time is like there's various boring casts of

959
00:45:36.179 --> 00:45:40.320
cyberman that redesign themselves and decide to start wearing sort

960
00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:44.760
of... flares and boots and...

961
00:45:44.760 --> 00:45:47.699
Ping-pong balls on their shoulders and vacuum cleaner tubes.

962
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:49.500
Yes, David Banks.

963
00:45:49.559 --> 00:45:50.400
I now get who you mean.

964
00:45:50.460 --> 00:45:54.539
I love it when the mass OCD fanboys get hold of something and

965
00:45:54.539 --> 00:45:56.460
really put a construction on it.

966
00:45:56.519 --> 00:45:57.900
Oh, he was the cyber leader.

967
00:45:57.900 --> 00:45:58.320
He was.

968
00:45:58.380 --> 00:45:59.340
Hands on hips.

969
00:45:59.400 --> 00:46:01.139
He was the Christopher Robbie of our general.

970
00:46:01.199 --> 00:46:02.940
Exactly what he was.

971
00:46:03.000 --> 00:46:04.320
Oh, dear.

972
00:46:04.380 --> 00:46:05.219
So tell me about that.

973
00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:07.139
Why do these sidemen look different?

974
00:46:07.199 --> 00:46:10.800
These sidemen look different because when Mondas was on its

975
00:46:10.800 --> 00:46:12.719
journey to the age of space.

976
00:46:12.780 --> 00:46:17.400
They sent out some cyberships to try and colonise our planets and

977
00:46:17.400 --> 00:46:25.559
this particular ship. landed and colonised on Telos, but then the

978
00:46:25.559 --> 00:46:29.219
expedition left again, and that's why the Cybermenon Telos look

979
00:46:29.219 --> 00:46:31.440
like the Cybermen who attacked the Moonbase, despite the fact the

980
00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:32.760
stories were about 500 years apart.

981
00:46:32.820 --> 00:46:38.280
So the cybermen we saw in 10th Planet are civilian cybermen's

982
00:46:38.280 --> 00:46:40.980
scientists saw perhaps actually politicians.

983
00:46:41.039 --> 00:46:42.480
They were.

984
00:46:42.539 --> 00:46:43.320
They were civilians.

985
00:46:43.380 --> 00:46:45.360
And they said they want everyone to know their name.

986
00:46:45.420 --> 00:46:47.039
And they had names.

987
00:46:47.219 --> 00:46:48.059
Whereas thank you.

988
00:46:48.119 --> 00:46:52.079
And there is these ones, and military or space fearing cybermen, so

989
00:46:52.079 --> 00:46:56.039
they have pressure resistant impact resistant armour, et cetera.

990
00:46:56.159 --> 00:46:59.460
But, I mean, the real reason Sandboy squee right there, isn't it?

991
00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:00.659
really hate all that stuff.

992
00:47:01.260 --> 00:47:04.260
I mean, the real reason is...

993
00:47:04.260 --> 00:47:08.880
This is the 2nd time that we've ever had a returning villain.

994
00:47:08.940 --> 00:47:11.400
So the Daleks have been back all times.

995
00:47:11.460 --> 00:47:13.920
This is the 1st time anyone else has ever come back.

996
00:47:13.980 --> 00:47:17.039
And so it's the side med, but they're completely unrecognisable

997
00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:18.659
and they're clearly been retooled.

998
00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:22.320
I don't know whether we know whether the production team knows at

999
00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:25.500
this stage that they might lose the rights to the Daleks.

1000
00:47:25.559 --> 00:47:28.199
And so maybe they're getting someone else.

1001
00:47:28.320 --> 00:47:31.619
Oh, no, they definitely knew that was part of the reason that they

1002
00:47:31.619 --> 00:47:34.500
decided to bring back the sidemen so quickly too.

1003
00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:35.400
Yeah, yeah.

1004
00:47:35.460 --> 00:47:37.679
So they're going to be the new recurring villains and they will

1005
00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:37.920
be.

1006
00:47:37.980 --> 00:47:42.179
In fact, we next episode will be doing evil of the Daleks, which

1007
00:47:42.179 --> 00:47:47.340
is kind of portrays the final end of the Daleks, only not really

1008
00:47:47.340 --> 00:47:49.019
unless you're John Peel.

1009
00:47:49.079 --> 00:47:52.980
And so we, you know, these are the other villains.

1010
00:47:53.039 --> 00:47:57.000
And, you know, the new recurring villains and we'll see them again

1011
00:47:57.000 --> 00:47:58.440
and again in the trout era.

1012
00:47:58.500 --> 00:48:01.500
And they're always a bit crummy, aren't they?

1013
00:48:01.619 --> 00:48:04.440
Like they're like, they're quite good.

1014
00:48:04.500 --> 00:48:07.920
They're quite good in 10th planet and I think it's because they're

1015
00:48:07.920 --> 00:48:09.239
sort of strange and shocking.

1016
00:48:09.300 --> 00:48:11.280
They're extraordinary intense plan.

1017
00:48:11.340 --> 00:48:15.480
They're really mesmerising and their motivations are not that far

1018
00:48:15.480 --> 00:48:20.760
off a world under climate change and geological catastrophe.

1019
00:48:20.820 --> 00:48:22.019
How different would BB?

1020
00:48:22.079 --> 00:48:24.599
Yeah, no, they're from a parallel world.

1021
00:48:24.659 --> 00:48:26.760
They from an alternative, if you know, they're us.

1022
00:48:26.820 --> 00:48:30.179
But these are just sort of like a big troop of dumb robots, really

1023
00:48:30.179 --> 00:48:30.719
aren't they?

1024
00:48:30.780 --> 00:48:34.800
And there is a little hint at the stuff from the 10th planet.

1025
00:48:34.920 --> 00:48:38.460
It is very definitely the same. you know we do have references to

1026
00:48:38.460 --> 00:48:38.639
it.

1027
00:48:38.699 --> 00:48:41.940
And there is even references to sort of converting people, I think

1028
00:48:41.940 --> 00:48:42.659
towards the end.

1029
00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:45.420
But they're kind of, they could be anyone, really.

1030
00:48:45.480 --> 00:48:47.340
And that's really the role that they're going to play.

1031
00:48:47.400 --> 00:48:49.260
Could be the commies, couldn't they?

1032
00:48:49.320 --> 00:48:50.519
All that conversion stuff.

1033
00:48:50.579 --> 00:48:53.579
It's pretty much what we said before, the straight reds under the

1034
00:48:53.579 --> 00:48:58.079
beds, except this lot on top of the beds under a sheet.

1035
00:48:58.260 --> 00:49:06.119
How thicky are always, again, very bond-like space tech people up

1036
00:49:06.119 --> 00:49:06.659
on space.

1037
00:49:06.719 --> 00:49:10.320
You know that I've read that the reasoning this Lloyd didn't have

1038
00:49:10.320 --> 00:49:16.199
so much racial variation was that he was not wanting to offend the

1039
00:49:16.199 --> 00:49:18.840
Southern states trying to sell this story to the US.

1040
00:49:19.679 --> 00:49:22.920
So a lot of white people on the moon base, even though they have

1041
00:49:22.920 --> 00:49:24.599
like comedy accents.

1042
00:49:24.659 --> 00:49:25.199
Absolutely.

1043
00:49:25.260 --> 00:49:29.940
So we're not getting a proper C-based 2020 animated kind of groovy

1044
00:49:29.940 --> 00:49:30.300
base.

1045
00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:34.019
In the 70s, you started getting Star Trek was still not in

1046
00:49:34.019 --> 00:49:34.559
Britain.

1047
00:49:34.619 --> 00:49:37.619
So what we're seeing here with an international crew is still very

1048
00:49:37.619 --> 00:49:41.400
much Dan Dare, Charles Crichton's directed, you know, what the

1049
00:49:41.400 --> 00:49:42.239
empire would be like.

1050
00:49:42.300 --> 00:49:44.699
It really is Commonwealth Games on the Moon, isn't it?

1051
00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:46.019
Plus Andre Moran.

1052
00:49:46.079 --> 00:49:49.980
Plus Andre Moran in an exotic neckerchief because, you know, he's

1053
00:49:49.980 --> 00:49:50.280
French.

1054
00:49:50.340 --> 00:49:52.019
I actually really like his character in this.

1055
00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:55.559
I like all of them, except maybe the fobby old silly old duffer

1056
00:49:55.559 --> 00:49:57.599
commander, but I love them.

1057
00:49:57.659 --> 00:49:58.980
Oh, I really like it.

1058
00:49:58.980 --> 00:50:04.980
I like it. because And a scientist who had risen to the rank to

1059
00:50:04.980 --> 00:50:08.219
command this kind of thing wouldn't be a dashing young man.

1060
00:50:08.280 --> 00:50:12.179
He would be a man in his middle age who has devoted his life to

1061
00:50:12.179 --> 00:50:14.579
science and thus he's been put in charge.

1062
00:50:14.639 --> 00:50:17.579
Well, I mean, compare it to the last time we did this story, where

1063
00:50:17.579 --> 00:50:21.539
you've got General Cutler, who's so crazy that he's in fact the

1064
00:50:21.539 --> 00:50:25.440
chief of Dylan and antagonist in episode 3 of the 10th planet.

1065
00:50:25.500 --> 00:50:29.880
He've got Hobson, and Hobson's just kind of doing his job and, you

1066
00:50:29.880 --> 00:50:33.840
know, like he's sort of really normal and like he, and I really

1067
00:50:33.840 --> 00:50:34.500
like him.

1068
00:50:34.619 --> 00:50:35.760
He's terrific.

1069
00:50:35.820 --> 00:50:37.380
He does suffer, doesn't he?

1070
00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:38.400
Yeah, no.

1071
00:50:38.400 --> 00:50:39.480
Get out of here.

1072
00:50:39.539 --> 00:50:40.679
I can cure your disease.

1073
00:50:40.739 --> 00:50:41.820
Oh, all right.

1074
00:50:41.880 --> 00:50:44.340
Just don't make too much noise, you crazy kids.

1075
00:50:44.460 --> 00:50:45.780
He's wonderful.

1076
00:50:45.840 --> 00:50:48.659
I think he's he's um he's really terrific.

1077
00:50:48.719 --> 00:50:50.820
And I really like Bob.

1078
00:50:51.420 --> 00:50:56.699
Bob, you know, fat, poor fat Bob, who gets killed at the, you know

1079
00:50:56.699 --> 00:50:58.860
in episode at the start of episode three.

1080
00:50:58.920 --> 00:51:00.900
I just think he's he's trivic.

1081
00:51:00.960 --> 00:51:02.159
So like they're good.

1082
00:51:02.219 --> 00:51:06.239
It's a shame there's no one ever thinks to employ a woman in these

1083
00:51:06.239 --> 00:51:06.840
places.

1084
00:51:06.900 --> 00:51:07.500
That's crazy.

1085
00:51:07.559 --> 00:51:10.860
We do get that in the Ice Warriors, but although Polly's character

1086
00:51:10.860 --> 00:51:14.159
does start getting a bit restrengthened, seeing if she's the one

1087
00:51:14.159 --> 00:51:17.820
who figures out how to deal with the cyber invasion in the base

1088
00:51:17.820 --> 00:51:18.719
which is pretty fabulous.

1089
00:51:18.719 --> 00:51:23.400
Because quite often with Doctor Who companions, they're sort of

1090
00:51:23.400 --> 00:51:25.679
given whatever skills are needed in the story.

1091
00:51:25.739 --> 00:51:28.800
And we sort that a bit with Ian, but that can be rationalised away

1092
00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:31.139
with things like national service and da da da.

1093
00:51:31.260 --> 00:51:35.099
But with Polly, the things she knows to deal with sidemen, I the

1094
00:51:35.099 --> 00:51:36.000
chemical solvents.

1095
00:51:36.059 --> 00:51:39.780
Are things like a 60s dolly bird would know because she's an

1096
00:51:39.780 --> 00:51:40.739
expert on nail polish.

1097
00:51:40.800 --> 00:51:42.239
She's an expert on nail polish.

1098
00:51:42.300 --> 00:51:46.260
But also, you know, she would have to know, working with those

1099
00:51:46.260 --> 00:51:51.059
chemicals, like nail polish and presumably hair products, it would

1100
00:51:51.059 --> 00:51:52.739
because she's a girl.

1101
00:51:52.800 --> 00:51:55.980
Well, because she has a fabulous beehive, everything.

1102
00:51:56.039 --> 00:51:59.639
But, you know, working with those products, Polly's a pretty smart

1103
00:51:59.639 --> 00:52:02.519
person, she would want to know what chemicals she was using on her

1104
00:52:02.519 --> 00:52:04.320
body and what their effects were.

1105
00:52:04.380 --> 00:52:08.639
So, you know, if she knows that acetate dissolves plastic and she

1106
00:52:08.639 --> 00:52:10.980
knows that the side men are made out of plastic, you know, it's a

1107
00:52:10.980 --> 00:52:13.679
rational character development for her.

1108
00:52:13.679 --> 00:52:17.400
And what's really great is Ben just stands there going, what?

1109
00:52:17.460 --> 00:52:19.320
That doesn't make sense.

1110
00:52:19.380 --> 00:52:22.019
Yes, Ben is poorly served in this one, isn't he?

1111
00:52:22.079 --> 00:52:26.099
Yeah, even though Jamie's unconscious, so they didn't, you know

1112
00:52:26.099 --> 00:52:28.860
like we didn't really know Jamie was going to be in it, I think, at

1113
00:52:28.860 --> 00:52:29.219
this stage.

1114
00:52:29.219 --> 00:52:32.219
Yeah, we didn't, we get he gets...

1115
00:52:32.280 --> 00:52:34.199
He gets knocked out at the beginning of episode one.

1116
00:52:34.260 --> 00:52:36.420
In fact, we haven't talked about the moon and it's kind of funny

1117
00:52:36.420 --> 00:52:41.039
because as we record, last week's series 8, Doctor Who episode was

1118
00:52:41.039 --> 00:52:41.760
set on the moon.

1119
00:52:41.820 --> 00:52:43.500
And right?

1120
00:52:43.559 --> 00:52:46.260
The very 1st thing that I noticed them saying about the moon was

1121
00:52:46.260 --> 00:52:50.519
the doctor noticing that the gravity was normal in Kill the Moon.

1122
00:52:50.579 --> 00:52:53.219
And so, you know, we wouldn't have to do any special gravity

1123
00:52:53.219 --> 00:52:53.639
effects.

1124
00:52:53.699 --> 00:52:55.980
And it turned out there was a sensible plot reason for that.

1125
00:52:56.039 --> 00:52:57.719
Well, not a sensible.

1126
00:52:58.500 --> 00:53:01.980
I'm a podcast for the listeners at home.

1127
00:53:02.039 --> 00:53:04.320
To raise my collective eyebrow there, yeah.

1128
00:53:04.679 --> 00:53:09.960
But here they get to do like 10 minutes of just fapping about on

1129
00:53:09.960 --> 00:53:13.980
the moon surface, leaping up and down wearing fabulous.

1130
00:53:14.039 --> 00:53:18.480
I mean, does the doctor pull out his does he have the...

1131
00:53:18.539 --> 00:53:22.019
He's got a big chest, which is dimensionally transcendental and

1132
00:53:22.019 --> 00:53:26.940
has like whole astronaut outfits and so they put astronaut outfits

1133
00:53:26.940 --> 00:53:29.699
on and they bounce around on the set and stuff and they do it for

1134
00:53:29.699 --> 00:53:31.320
about 10 minutes and they're having great time.

1135
00:53:31.380 --> 00:53:34.139
What I love about their astronoid outfits too.

1136
00:53:34.199 --> 00:53:37.079
And this is before Adam West Batman was on.

1137
00:53:37.139 --> 00:53:39.960
But they've all got these sort of robin eye masks for some

1138
00:53:39.960 --> 00:53:40.320
reason.

1139
00:53:40.380 --> 00:53:46.320
Is it like to protect themselves against the glare of the script?

1140
00:53:46.500 --> 00:53:49.860
I think it's the mask, the stuntman person.

1141
00:53:49.920 --> 00:53:51.360
Yeah, you could be right.

1142
00:53:52.380 --> 00:53:54.780
It is a base under siege.

1143
00:53:54.840 --> 00:53:58.739
This is, I think, and, you know, there is that much quoted speech

1144
00:53:58.739 --> 00:54:02.760
from Trout in here where he says, yeah, you know, there are things

1145
00:54:02.760 --> 00:54:06.960
in the Farcons of the universe have bred the most terrible things

1146
00:54:06.960 --> 00:54:08.880
and they must be Ford.

1147
00:54:08.940 --> 00:54:11.460
And, you know, that's much quoted.

1148
00:54:11.519 --> 00:54:17.579
But what I actually think this is, is this is kind of like the 1st

1149
00:54:17.579 --> 00:54:21.059
modern Doctor Who story.

1150
00:54:21.119 --> 00:54:25.860
You've got a group of people, under threat from an alien outsiders

1151
00:54:25.860 --> 00:54:29.460
and the doctor comes in, is initially suspected by that group of

1152
00:54:29.460 --> 00:54:32.940
people, but eventually saves them from the aliens.

1153
00:54:33.000 --> 00:54:36.059
And it's something that we're just going to see over and over

1154
00:54:36.059 --> 00:54:36.480
again.

1155
00:54:36.539 --> 00:54:39.539
And people complain that the late trout and stuff is, you know

1156
00:54:39.539 --> 00:54:41.880
essentially that story over and over again.

1157
00:54:41.940 --> 00:54:45.539
But I mean, waters of Mars is that story, image of the Fendal, is

1158
00:54:45.539 --> 00:54:45.900
that story.

1159
00:54:45.960 --> 00:54:46.679
I mean, that story.

1160
00:54:46.739 --> 00:54:47.940
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1161
00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:52.860
You know, that story is an absolute staple of Doctor Who.

1162
00:54:52.980 --> 00:54:57.059
And surprisingly, we haven't had it really that much until now.

1163
00:54:57.119 --> 00:55:01.920
Maybe the closest that we've had it is the censorites where the

1164
00:55:01.920 --> 00:55:06.300
people are actually the aliens and they're under threat from

1165
00:55:06.300 --> 00:55:07.679
mysterious people, you know.

1166
00:55:07.739 --> 00:55:11.340
But we've, you know, this is the 1st time we do it in that modern

1167
00:55:11.340 --> 00:55:12.300
way and there's some talk.

1168
00:55:12.360 --> 00:55:16.440
You know, maybe that's a sort of depressingly xenophobic view of

1169
00:55:16.440 --> 00:55:19.920
the world, whereas before we used to go out and see weird things

1170
00:55:19.920 --> 00:55:22.980
and we'd always end up getting sort of captured or menaced or

1171
00:55:22.980 --> 00:55:26.880
thrown into a prison or narrowly escaping a dull historical

1172
00:55:26.880 --> 00:55:27.539
massacre.

1173
00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:33.480
But, um, But, uh, we were exploring the world and seeing new

1174
00:55:33.480 --> 00:55:33.960
things.

1175
00:55:34.019 --> 00:55:38.099
Now we're kind of frightened of the world and we, the big threat

1176
00:55:38.099 --> 00:55:41.940
that it presents is that it will get in and we need the doctor to

1177
00:55:41.940 --> 00:55:43.019
prevent that from happening.

1178
00:55:43.079 --> 00:55:47.099
And so I think that there's a sense in which this is kind of a

1179
00:55:47.099 --> 00:55:47.699
step up.

1180
00:55:47.760 --> 00:55:52.380
This is what the status quo was going to be on the trout.

1181
00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:55.619
It is, in a sense, what the status quo is going to be, you know

1182
00:55:55.619 --> 00:55:58.440
from in Doctor Who from now on.

1183
00:55:58.500 --> 00:56:04.380
But it does foreclose some sort of fun possibilities, and some

1184
00:56:04.380 --> 00:56:08.699
really strange, enjoyable things that we've had up till now, and

1185
00:56:08.699 --> 00:56:10.260
that's a bit of a shame.

1186
00:56:10.320 --> 00:56:13.619
So this story seems this story seems very competent and very

1187
00:56:13.619 --> 00:56:17.760
modern, but it does lose some of the charm that we've had over the

1188
00:56:17.760 --> 00:56:18.840
last 3 years, I think.

1189
00:56:18.960 --> 00:56:22.500
Do you feel it's just trying to do too many things at once or

1190
00:56:22.500 --> 00:56:28.019
select too many other story types and types to be one thing?

1191
00:56:28.139 --> 00:56:32.400
I just think it's the 1st story that will eventually just settle

1192
00:56:32.400 --> 00:56:34.079
into this groove that gets done.

1193
00:56:34.260 --> 00:56:35.099
Very quickly, too.

1194
00:56:35.159 --> 00:56:35.760
Yeah.

1195
00:56:35.820 --> 00:56:38.760
My only problem with this one because it is kind of the 1st real

1196
00:56:38.760 --> 00:56:40.320
Doctor Who story as we now know.

1197
00:56:40.380 --> 00:56:43.619
If you could refilm it for Capaldi and it's, okay, you could

1198
00:56:43.619 --> 00:56:46.679
refilm it for Matt Smith and it would almost be Capelli's old

1199
00:56:46.679 --> 00:56:47.639
different universe now.

1200
00:56:47.699 --> 00:56:50.159
But it's almost a Matt Smith story.

1201
00:56:50.219 --> 00:56:51.000
Waters of Mars.

1202
00:56:51.119 --> 00:56:52.019
Yeah, thank you.

1203
00:56:52.079 --> 00:56:54.780
Actually, yes, what is the Mars really ringing in my head looking

1204
00:56:54.780 --> 00:56:55.320
at this again?

1205
00:56:55.380 --> 00:57:01.500
But so too, was the Cybernaus, the Avengers that just, we'd just

1206
00:57:01.500 --> 00:57:03.239
seen Michael Goff doing the year before.

1207
00:57:03.480 --> 00:57:06.059
He did so I still try and make it.

1208
00:57:06.119 --> 00:57:07.019
He's much better in that one.

1209
00:57:07.079 --> 00:57:11.159
But these really are cyber naughts of the Avengers, the M appeal

1210
00:57:11.159 --> 00:57:13.860
fame, even the way they karate chop through things.

1211
00:57:13.920 --> 00:57:17.039
We never, unfortunately, get to hear because they're mute, the

1212
00:57:17.039 --> 00:57:21.780
cybonauts accuse human beings of having to stop...

1213
00:57:21.780 --> 00:57:25.380
Which is just...

1214
00:57:25.380 --> 00:57:28.739
I wish we could use them in everyday parts and work meetings

1215
00:57:28.739 --> 00:57:29.099
really.

1216
00:57:30.960 --> 00:57:36.239
See, I really like this one and I think it is actually a step up

1217
00:57:36.239 --> 00:57:38.219
from the 10th planet.

1218
00:57:38.280 --> 00:57:43.739
The sidemen may not be as complex in this anymore, but it's not

1219
00:57:43.739 --> 00:57:45.659
just their appearance that streamlined.

1220
00:57:45.719 --> 00:57:50.099
It's their characterisation is streamlined as well.

1221
00:57:50.159 --> 00:57:53.639
They are the menace who want to make us like them.

1222
00:57:53.760 --> 00:57:59.340
And take what we have for themselves, but there is still no malice

1223
00:57:59.340 --> 00:58:00.239
in what they're doing.

1224
00:58:00.300 --> 00:58:04.320
And I think that's the important thing you have to have for a

1225
00:58:04.320 --> 00:58:07.019
decent side of men's story. the absence of malice.

1226
00:58:07.079 --> 00:58:08.639
What we're trying to do is logical.

1227
00:58:08.699 --> 00:58:13.920
And on the surface, you know, it might seem that what the cybermen

1228
00:58:13.920 --> 00:58:15.900
are trying to do here isn't logical, you know.

1229
00:58:15.960 --> 00:58:19.800
In the 10th planet, they went for a full frontal assault, and that

1230
00:58:19.800 --> 00:58:20.159
didn't work.

1231
00:58:20.639 --> 00:58:25.380
So these sidemen, what they do is they attempt to invade by

1232
00:58:25.380 --> 00:58:26.159
stealth.

1233
00:58:26.219 --> 00:58:28.320
You can't do that fully frontally, can you?

1234
00:58:28.380 --> 00:58:30.539
No, no, indeed not.

1235
00:58:30.599 --> 00:58:34.019
Now, when that doesn't work, they do come in.

1236
00:58:34.079 --> 00:58:36.599
They're repelled, so they attack from a distance.

1237
00:58:36.659 --> 00:58:41.340
Each of the cyberman's actions in this is informed by something

1238
00:58:41.340 --> 00:58:42.719
that's happened to them previously.

1239
00:58:42.840 --> 00:58:47.159
They adapt to what they've learned, whereas in the 10th planet.

1240
00:58:47.219 --> 00:58:48.780
They attempt to go in once.

1241
00:58:48.900 --> 00:58:50.219
They get defeated.

1242
00:58:50.280 --> 00:58:53.760
They go, oh, okay, we'll just lay around the corner and wait for

1243
00:58:53.760 --> 00:58:54.360
everyone to die.

1244
00:58:54.480 --> 00:58:57.420
You know, the side men in this are a little bit more proactive.

1245
00:58:57.480 --> 00:59:01.559
Behind the scenes, of course, they've had the redesign, uh, which

1246
00:59:01.559 --> 00:59:06.420
was handled by, um, Sandra Reid, who has said in interviews that

1247
00:59:06.420 --> 00:59:10.980
um, part of the reason for the redesign was, she felt so badly

1248
00:59:10.980 --> 00:59:14.340
about 1st design, because the 1st design for the 10th planet, she

1249
00:59:14.340 --> 00:59:17.699
was asked to do at the last minute, and didn't think much of

1250
00:59:17.699 --> 00:59:18.480
science fiction.

1251
00:59:18.539 --> 00:59:22.500
So just designed something she thought was kind of terrible.

1252
00:59:22.559 --> 00:59:23.820
Really?

1253
00:59:23.880 --> 00:59:26.039
Yeah, she really doesn't like that.

1254
00:59:26.099 --> 00:59:26.699
That's the thing.

1255
00:59:26.760 --> 00:59:30.119
They, you know, people thought they were really menacing.

1256
00:59:30.179 --> 00:59:34.260
But she felt so bad that people really liked something she had

1257
00:59:34.260 --> 00:59:39.780
done sort of off the cuff that she went, no, I'm gonna do it, quote

1258
00:59:39.780 --> 00:59:43.079
unquote, properly this time, and I'm going to make them sleek and

1259
00:59:43.079 --> 00:59:43.619
metallic.

1260
00:59:43.619 --> 00:59:46.860
With polyphene tennis balls, yes. polyphene.

1261
00:59:46.920 --> 00:59:49.559
This is, I mean, it's essentially the what we have now.

1262
00:59:49.619 --> 00:59:50.519
Do you know what I mean?

1263
00:59:50.579 --> 00:59:54.179
Like, Simon get undergo a couple of redesigns in the 60s until

1264
00:59:54.179 --> 00:59:57.000
they have those big bun head things that they have.

1265
00:59:57.059 --> 01:00:00.780
We beat George Lucas and Carrie Fisher again, didn't we?

1266
01:00:00.840 --> 01:00:03.960
You know, they had the invasion and all throughout the 70s and

1267
01:00:03.960 --> 01:00:04.920
80s.

1268
01:00:04.980 --> 01:00:08.340
But what we've gone back to now is essentially these moon-based

1269
01:00:08.340 --> 01:00:12.119
sidemen or their close cousins, the wheeling space ones, with the

1270
01:00:12.119 --> 01:00:14.340
smaller heads and all that sort of thing.

1271
01:00:14.460 --> 01:00:17.400
And I think they look pretty good and I actually like the voices I

1272
01:00:17.400 --> 01:00:17.639
like.

1273
01:00:17.699 --> 01:00:19.139
They're incomprehensible.

1274
01:00:19.199 --> 01:00:21.480
They're not quite as bad as they will be in tune with the sidemen

1275
01:00:21.480 --> 01:00:25.320
where you can't understand a line of their dialogue, but, you know

1276
01:00:25.320 --> 01:00:28.199
I think that they, you know, they look reasonably cool, but they

1277
01:00:28.199 --> 01:00:31.619
are very generic and they are they're slightly dull.

1278
01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:36.119
I mean, the fact that they're not us anymore, they are just robots

1279
01:00:36.119 --> 01:00:39.360
you know, and they're not threatening to assimilate us or take a

1280
01:00:39.360 --> 01:00:40.980
sofa or depersonalise us.

1281
01:00:41.039 --> 01:00:44.460
They just want to, you know, hit us over the head and take on our

1282
01:00:44.460 --> 01:00:46.320
staff, essentially, here.

1283
01:00:46.380 --> 01:00:48.539
So it's a slightly less interesting thing.

1284
01:00:48.599 --> 01:00:53.219
And in fact, I think that the fact that the gravitron is a weather

1285
01:00:53.219 --> 01:00:56.219
base and that what they want to do is kind of destroy Earth.

1286
01:00:56.280 --> 01:00:59.699
It just is just a way of upping the stakes here.

1287
01:00:59.760 --> 01:01:00.480
Do you know what I mean?

1288
01:01:00.539 --> 01:01:06.000
Like, you know, like cybermen invading a moon base with half a

1289
01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:07.260
dozen white people on it.

1290
01:01:07.320 --> 01:01:12.300
That's not very, you know, that's not particularly threatening.

1291
01:01:12.360 --> 01:01:16.800
But, you know, Simon threatening to destroy the world by taking

1292
01:01:16.800 --> 01:01:19.800
control of its weather, obviously, up to the stakes.

1293
01:01:19.860 --> 01:01:21.059
Very prescient.

1294
01:01:21.119 --> 01:01:24.119
And it does it does give us a chance for some really, really

1295
01:01:24.119 --> 01:01:28.860
incredible foam rubber shower caps in the graviton room, which I'm

1296
01:01:28.860 --> 01:01:29.340
wearing one now.

1297
01:01:29.400 --> 01:01:32.219
Do you know, we weren't going to say...

1298
01:01:32.219 --> 01:01:32.820
I was wondering.

1299
01:01:32.880 --> 01:01:35.340
You know, this was almost Patrick Troughton's last story.

1300
01:01:35.400 --> 01:01:38.460
You just mentioned the big ballsy prop in so many ways.

1301
01:01:38.519 --> 01:01:39.659
Why?

1302
01:01:39.659 --> 01:01:41.099
He knocked the motherhead thing.

1303
01:01:41.159 --> 01:01:44.639
The gravitron itself, you know how Paddy was a very physical actor

1304
01:01:44.639 --> 01:01:49.139
compared to build micro physicality, and you Bill's things, you

1305
01:01:49.139 --> 01:01:50.099
always saw his hands.

1306
01:01:50.159 --> 01:01:52.019
Something that came from 20 cinema.

1307
01:01:52.079 --> 01:01:54.900
We haven't mentioned that this podcast, so I think it's important

1308
01:01:54.900 --> 01:01:55.860
to throw that in again.

1309
01:01:55.920 --> 01:01:57.239
I haven't had a drink at home.

1310
01:01:57.300 --> 01:02:00.059
So you'd always see Bill's hands in his close-up shots.

1311
01:02:00.119 --> 01:02:04.260
Paddy liked to walk around the set before the 1st day of shooting

1312
01:02:04.260 --> 01:02:07.139
just work out his moves and the size of the props.

1313
01:02:07.199 --> 01:02:10.440
The gravitron hadn't been properly secured and fell down within

1314
01:02:10.440 --> 01:02:13.860
apparently 2 feet of where he'd just been standing and would have

1315
01:02:13.860 --> 01:02:15.420
cut him coming through.

1316
01:02:15.480 --> 01:02:16.199
Yeah.

1317
01:02:16.380 --> 01:02:19.800
So then, ooh, can you just see him jumping up and down like

1318
01:02:19.800 --> 01:02:22.139
running away when I say run?

1319
01:02:22.199 --> 01:02:23.639
Yeah, yeah, he wasn't happy about it.

1320
01:02:23.699 --> 01:02:27.360
So maybe that means an edge to the 1st episode.

1321
01:02:27.420 --> 01:02:28.559
Shoot when you watch it again.

1322
01:02:28.619 --> 01:02:30.539
But he's so consummately good.

1323
01:02:30.599 --> 01:02:32.460
I think that's the thing about this season.

1324
01:02:32.519 --> 01:02:35.280
Plot for plot, plot for plot.

1325
01:02:35.340 --> 01:02:40.079
It's kind of like the colour series of of Diana Riggs Avengers in

1326
01:02:40.079 --> 01:02:43.679
that isolated their fun, but try and watch them in a sequence and

1327
01:02:43.679 --> 01:02:46.679
you just fall into a coma because it's the same plot every single

1328
01:02:46.679 --> 01:02:47.159
week.

1329
01:02:47.219 --> 01:02:48.300
This one.

1330
01:02:49.079 --> 01:02:53.699
Almost the same, I think much, much less so and actually more

1331
01:02:53.699 --> 01:02:54.360
creatively.

1332
01:02:54.420 --> 01:02:57.480
But Patrick Troughton is just amazing and everything he does.

1333
01:02:57.539 --> 01:03:01.800
And I'm really unwilling to say that because I'm still having, I'm

1334
01:03:01.800 --> 01:03:02.880
still having Billy Gas.

1335
01:03:02.940 --> 01:03:07.199
I'm still really missing Billy, but he just, you can't not be

1336
01:03:07.199 --> 01:03:11.940
astounded and kind of confronted and because he's certainly not a

1337
01:03:11.940 --> 01:03:12.900
black and white doctor.

1338
01:03:12.960 --> 01:03:16.739
He certainly, he's morality is impused several times throughout

1339
01:03:16.739 --> 01:03:20.460
the course of this adventure, because we saw it, um, in this one

1340
01:03:20.460 --> 01:03:24.059
not so much, but he's willing to sacrifice for the greater good

1341
01:03:24.059 --> 01:03:25.860
depends on who, depending on who that is.

1342
01:03:25.920 --> 01:03:27.960
We're going to see more of that as the season goes on.

1343
01:03:28.019 --> 01:03:31.500
But, you know, for instance, in Underwater Menace, he floods the

1344
01:03:31.500 --> 01:03:34.320
lower levels for no good reason, just to give him a bit more time

1345
01:03:34.320 --> 01:03:36.780
and to distract Professor Zaroff.

1346
01:03:36.840 --> 01:03:37.860
There were other ways he could have done it.

1347
01:03:37.920 --> 01:03:41.699
And we talked in power of the Daleks about the Bragan's guards.

1348
01:03:41.760 --> 01:03:45.780
Yes, sacrificing that he sacrifices then.

1349
01:03:45.840 --> 01:03:48.599
And like you said, we'll see an evil of the Daleks and a bit more

1350
01:03:48.599 --> 01:03:48.840
of that.

1351
01:03:48.900 --> 01:03:52.800
It was listening to this one that I realised where so much of

1352
01:03:52.800 --> 01:03:56.699
later doctors have come from, most significantly and visually as

1353
01:03:56.699 --> 01:03:56.940
well.

1354
01:03:57.000 --> 01:04:00.239
You can really see Sylvester's doctor being very much based on

1355
01:04:00.239 --> 01:04:00.780
Patrick.

1356
01:04:00.840 --> 01:04:05.639
But when you get the look of it, but also the greater good and the

1357
01:04:05.639 --> 01:04:06.360
manipulation.

1358
01:04:06.420 --> 01:04:09.480
He's very subtly so, and I didn't get it the 1st time I listened

1359
01:04:09.480 --> 01:04:09.780
to these.

1360
01:04:09.840 --> 01:04:14.400
Did you notice the big referencing robot of Sherwood a couple of

1361
01:04:14.400 --> 01:04:14.940
weeks ago?

1362
01:04:15.000 --> 01:04:19.739
There's a fantastic saving mood base where Hobson's given the

1363
01:04:19.739 --> 01:04:23.639
doctor permission to investigate, you know, what pathogenal, what

1364
01:04:23.639 --> 01:04:24.599
it is in common?

1365
01:04:24.659 --> 01:04:25.860
And he's cutting people's hair.

1366
01:04:25.920 --> 01:04:28.559
Yeah, yeah, he's crawling around on the front, stuff their clothes

1367
01:04:28.559 --> 01:04:29.099
and stuff.

1368
01:04:29.219 --> 01:04:32.639
And Capaldi's doing the same thing to all of the people.

1369
01:04:32.699 --> 01:04:35.039
I'll introduce you to people who are fish.

1370
01:04:36.119 --> 01:04:40.139
But he does the same thing to Robin Hood in his very man.

1371
01:04:40.199 --> 01:04:42.780
He's rolling around, taking blood samples and stuff.

1372
01:04:42.840 --> 01:04:43.980
Terrific.

1373
01:04:44.400 --> 01:04:49.500
Yeah, Patrick and Chartin is the go to doctor and this, for seeing

1374
01:04:49.500 --> 01:04:51.900
how to, what to do with the doctor and how to play it, Matt did

1375
01:04:51.900 --> 01:04:52.139
it.

1376
01:04:52.199 --> 01:04:56.099
I'm really getting that this season is just like, again, other

1377
01:04:56.099 --> 01:04:59.159
things like the Bond films of that time are still addressing how

1378
01:04:59.159 --> 01:05:04.260
to do a Bond film, the, again, with the reboots, the Avengers is

1379
01:05:04.260 --> 01:05:08.159
how to do a rom-com with a male and female leads, still kind of

1380
01:05:08.159 --> 01:05:08.880
done that way.

1381
01:05:08.880 --> 01:05:10.920
This is the doctor.

1382
01:05:10.980 --> 01:05:11.940
This is how to do Doctor Who.

1383
01:05:12.059 --> 01:05:13.860
Yeah, this is the reboot, isn't it?

1384
01:05:13.920 --> 01:05:15.539
It's series one of the reboot really.

1385
01:05:15.599 --> 01:05:22.199
And I think by introducing that sort of gray morality of the Trout

1386
01:05:22.199 --> 01:05:27.780
and Doctor, the series, the series grows up very quickly because

1387
01:05:27.780 --> 01:05:32.699
Hartnell's doctor, you know, he could be irascible, but you would

1388
01:05:32.699 --> 01:05:36.000
never think that, you know, that he'd flood the lower levels

1389
01:05:36.000 --> 01:05:39.360
without checking there are people there or that he'd send some

1390
01:05:39.360 --> 01:05:42.420
guards in to die just to buy himself as a mate to time.

1391
01:05:42.480 --> 01:05:45.300
Or as you mentioned, Nathan, that he'd smash a lawyer's head

1392
01:05:45.300 --> 01:05:45.960
against the desk.

1393
01:05:46.619 --> 01:05:48.840
Pretty much just for fun.

1394
01:05:48.960 --> 01:05:49.980
Just for fun, yeah?

1395
01:05:50.039 --> 01:05:50.340
You know?

1396
01:05:51.480 --> 01:05:57.719
And yeah, it feels like such a more adult and bigger series, even

1397
01:05:57.719 --> 01:06:03.119
with the problems that arguably all 3 of these stories have, it

1398
01:06:03.119 --> 01:06:06.300
begins to feel a bit more unpredictable again, in a good way

1399
01:06:06.300 --> 01:06:10.739
whereas series, sorry, season 3 was unpredictable in probably a

1400
01:06:10.739 --> 01:06:11.159
bad way.

1401
01:06:11.219 --> 01:06:15.420
That was unpredictable in a way of, oh, God, what's coming next?

1402
01:06:15.480 --> 01:06:17.940
Whereas this is unpredictable in a way of, what's coming next?

1403
01:06:18.000 --> 01:06:19.920
Don't you think it's just growing pains?

1404
01:06:19.980 --> 01:06:24.300
Like, it is, they are kind of, like, this is the story where they

1405
01:06:24.300 --> 01:06:26.400
settle down into the mode that they're going to follow.

1406
01:06:26.460 --> 01:06:28.679
You know, they create the template.

1407
01:06:28.739 --> 01:06:31.679
And before then they were just kind of trying to work out what on

1408
01:06:31.679 --> 01:06:32.760
earth they were going to do.

1409
01:06:32.820 --> 01:06:38.159
And so, you know, Power of Daleks, I think, works surprisingly

1410
01:06:38.159 --> 01:06:42.000
well in context, given how the subsequent stories go.

1411
01:06:42.059 --> 01:06:47.099
But, you know, the Highlanders is a bit of a mess and and, you

1412
01:06:47.099 --> 01:06:48.420
know, like underwater menace.

1413
01:06:48.480 --> 01:06:50.880
I think they wanted to get away from alien planets, so it's on

1414
01:06:50.880 --> 01:06:54.000
Earth, but it's essentially, you know, crummy B movie tropes.

1415
01:06:54.000 --> 01:06:59.340
And then there's this and this is what they'll decide on going

1416
01:06:59.340 --> 01:06:59.820
forward.

1417
01:06:59.880 --> 01:07:05.039
So, like, I don't, I'm not, I'm not convinced that the show's been

1418
01:07:05.039 --> 01:07:06.420
revitalised yet.

1419
01:07:06.420 --> 01:07:12.239
I have to say, I think, you know, recasting the doctor was amazing

1420
01:07:12.239 --> 01:07:16.019
and it's amazing that that came off, but I think it really did.

1421
01:07:16.079 --> 01:07:19.079
I think Ben and Polly are, you know, were great regular cast

1422
01:07:19.079 --> 01:07:19.800
members.

1423
01:07:19.860 --> 01:07:22.139
I think that you know, some really positive changes have

1424
01:07:22.139 --> 01:07:22.559
happened.

1425
01:07:22.619 --> 01:07:25.500
But I'm just not convinced at this direction.

1426
01:07:25.559 --> 01:07:30.539
Um, you know, clearly in hindsight, we know that this is the

1427
01:07:30.539 --> 01:07:32.460
direction of the doctor who eventually takes.

1428
01:07:32.519 --> 01:07:36.480
But I don't know how great it is at this stage.

1429
01:07:36.539 --> 01:07:39.420
I'll have to. finding a feat, aren't they?

1430
01:07:39.480 --> 01:07:43.980
And they're making as many perhaps not so great choices as they're

1431
01:07:43.980 --> 01:07:45.000
making positive choices.

1432
01:07:45.059 --> 01:07:50.820
For me, if we can get to that right now, the biggest bar, what a

1433
01:07:50.820 --> 01:07:52.679
shame so far is the casting.

1434
01:07:52.679 --> 01:07:55.260
There's nothing against the actor himself because I really love

1435
01:07:55.260 --> 01:07:58.980
his performance, but we have Jamie McCrim and instead of Kirsty.

1436
01:07:59.039 --> 01:08:02.579
How amazing to have had Hannah Gordon, such a good actor as she

1437
01:08:02.579 --> 01:08:05.880
later proved in her careers, as the girl, she could have been

1438
01:08:05.880 --> 01:08:07.800
asleep on the bunk and it would have been absolutely terrifying

1439
01:08:07.800 --> 01:08:09.900
for everyone concerned.

1440
01:08:09.960 --> 01:08:11.400
I really like the character of Jamie.

1441
01:08:11.460 --> 01:08:12.659
He the companion, isn't he?

1442
01:08:13.019 --> 01:08:16.920
But it just would have been interesting to have seen maybe a bit

1443
01:08:16.920 --> 01:08:18.359
more playing around with the formula.

1444
01:08:18.420 --> 01:08:22.439
Well, in fact, we'll get to this next episode, probably, because

1445
01:08:22.439 --> 01:08:25.140
what we're about to see is some, you know, we're going to say

1446
01:08:25.140 --> 01:08:29.039
goodbye to the 2 contemporary companions who, you know, at the

1447
01:08:29.039 --> 01:08:32.220
time, I think we said we were really excited to see them coming

1448
01:08:32.220 --> 01:08:35.880
they're going to go, and we're just going to have Jamie and

1449
01:08:35.880 --> 01:08:36.960
someone else.

1450
01:08:37.079 --> 01:08:38.340
They don't want to spoil it for you.

1451
01:08:38.819 --> 01:08:44.279
And like again, I think that's that's...

1452
01:08:44.279 --> 01:08:45.180
Queen Victoria.

1453
01:08:45.239 --> 01:08:48.479
And also, next episode, I'm going to be, I'm talking about how

1454
01:08:48.479 --> 01:08:54.600
actually, I think when it works, the combination of Jamie, Ben, and

1455
01:08:54.600 --> 01:08:56.399
Polly is really good.

1456
01:08:56.460 --> 01:08:58.140
Yeah, yeah.

1457
01:09:07.199 --> 01:09:09.720
So that's all we have time for this episode.

1458
01:09:09.899 --> 01:09:13.979
In our next episode, we are going to be discussing the last 3

1459
01:09:13.979 --> 01:09:19.260
stories of this season, the Macraterra, the faceless ones, and the

1460
01:09:19.260 --> 01:09:22.439
final end of season 4 with Evil of the Daleks.

1461
01:09:23.520 --> 01:09:27.239
But until then, I'm off to Praise Amdo.

1462
01:09:27.300 --> 01:09:27.840
So good night.

1463
01:09:28.079 --> 01:09:30.300
Squilch.

1464
01:09:30.720 --> 01:09:34.800
I don't know what I'm off to. either of those two.

1465
01:09:34.859 --> 01:09:37.140
I'm up to get gills fitted.

1466
01:09:37.199 --> 01:09:38.220
Yeah, I should do.

1467
01:09:38.220 --> 01:09:40.859
I've got very unhygienic operating room.

1468
01:09:41.939 --> 01:09:46.079
Which will be cut out by the Australian sensors. right, Damian

1469
01:09:46.079 --> 01:09:47.699
Shanahan will have an extra bit.

1470
01:09:49.199 --> 01:09:51.720
That's why that's in the room.

1471
01:09:51.779 --> 01:09:55.800
That's why. to mention in the highland is the fact that all of

1472
01:09:55.800 --> 01:09:58.619
like all you would get is like someone suddenly being hanged.

1473
01:09:58.619 --> 01:10:01.140
And then it's back to the pictures.

1474
01:10:01.199 --> 01:10:03.180
From the tomb of Jamie and Shanahan.

1475
01:10:03.239 --> 01:10:07.319
So I think we can finish this episode by saying all the bits of

1476
01:10:07.319 --> 01:10:08.279
these episodes we do have.

1477
01:10:08.340 --> 01:10:09.539
Thank you, Damian Shannon.

1478
01:10:09.600 --> 01:10:10.979
Thank you, Damien, in your evil ways.

1479
01:10:11.039 --> 01:10:11.279
Thank you.

1480
01:10:17.399 --> 01:10:20.220
You've been listening to Flight Your Entirety with Nathan Botomey

1481
01:10:20.220 --> 01:10:21.479
Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

1482
01:10:21.600 --> 01:10:25.319
This episode, Comedy Accents, was recorded on Sunday, the 12th of

1483
01:10:25.319 --> 01:10:25.739
October.

1484
01:10:25.800 --> 01:10:28.800
The next episode will be released on Sunday, the 2nd of November.

1485
01:10:28.859 --> 01:10:32.039
You can find us at flatthroughentiresh.com, flight to entirety on

1486
01:10:32.039 --> 01:10:34.739
Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter.

1487
01:10:34.800 --> 01:10:37.380
Now, I'm going to make some coffee while you all think of

1488
01:10:37.380 --> 01:10:37.560
something.

1489
01:10:41.340 --> 01:10:44.760
Zarov ran at the priest with the...

1490
01:10:44.760 --> 01:10:47.640
Zarov ran at the pre.

1491
01:10:47.699 --> 01:10:50.220
Oh, it's a yeah, it's a reversing truck.

1492
01:10:50.279 --> 01:10:51.960
So it has to stop reversing eventually.

1493
01:10:52.079 --> 01:10:53.819
You'd think?