WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 13:53:41

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Hello and welcome to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast who gives you 300 lashes apiece, but only when you ask for it.

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I'm Brendan.

3
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I'm Nathan.

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I'm wearing a fishhead for this episode.

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Hello.

6
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And yeah, we're back looking at season 4 of Doctor Who, which is also the 1st season to feature Patrick Trouton as the doctor.

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So we're going to jump in with a story which is a story of thirst, but also a story of lasts with the Highlanders.

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Just tossing, okay, deflating the bagpipes, okay.

9
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Is that ready to go?

10
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Is that a burner cribbons, isn't it?

11
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I believe this is your story, Nathan.

12
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All right, so the Highlanders, it's mine.

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Yay.

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It was very carefully allocated by the randomiser.

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I did actually hack into it beforehand to ensure that I would get the last say when it came to the genre of historicals because the Highlanders is famously the last Doctor Who historical until Black Orchid, which I'm really looking forward to talking about actually in 2017 or something.

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So we talked about Power of the Dalek's last episode, and I think we agreed that it was something pretty spectacular.

17
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And so now we see what Patrick Trouton is like in something that, you know, is a staple of the Hartnell years, the historical.

18
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And I have to say that I'm not really going to surprise anyone.

19
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I really don't like it at all.

20
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It's terrible, isn't it?

21
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Why?

22
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Well, WHY question mark.

23
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That question in the 60s, do this at fellow pointers in on my sofa of reasonable comfort, is was the kind of question that you could type into a computer and instead of just getting an error message, Patrick Magoon did it in the general episode of the prisoner.

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And the whole room exploded.

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This is the thing of, the season of waking up, let's read Abby Hoffman and Alan Ginsburg and go and smoke a little bit of, oh, etheric sensibility and find out where we are.

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This is the last of the old style of storytelling, but it isn't just an historical because, as the whole point of Doctor Who is, we have people who don't belong anywhere, let alone 1746, in the bloodiest, as far as I know, the bloodiest moment of any conflict on British soil.

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There were, what was it, 9000 English under the butcher, Duke of Cumberland, slaughtering 4000 Jacobites, and as one of the characters, as a solicitor graces in this, It takes only 2 hours.

28
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It was a blood bath.

29
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And then you've got a lovely London dead, and a cocky cockney sailor, and who the hell is this guy in a bird, the hunter's hay hat, and...

30
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Oh, it only appears when I think Polly tries it on, but you don't, you only see it in, Don't you, in a little bit of this, and the power of the Daleks, and it's gone forever.

31
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Yeah, yeah. which is a sad thing.

32
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It always seems back coming back to the hatch, doesn't it?

33
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I think I think it is featured briefly at the beginning of Underwater Menace that he moves... why she tries it on.

34
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As yeah, produces tape. by the fish people.

35
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So what we find is they arrive just as the battle is finished.

36
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Oh, look, in that called Shakespeare.

37
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There's a battle over there on the left of the stage.

38
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You know, it's just already happened.

39
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It's a real nice way of doing it though, isn't it?

40
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That's the 1st time we've done that, that the event is, okay, you could say with the Romans, that we burn the map and we see it all erupting as we leave.

41
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And with the massacre, we had the big, the huge climax was portrayed using the contemporary engraving.

42
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So that did actually take place during the story during the night that people were there.

43
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It's also a device that's been used to great effect the 1st 7 series of the new Doctor Who series.

44
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Here's this war that happened over there, but we never see it.

45
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Yeah, that's true.

46
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Yeah, well, I mean, it is sort of cheaply realised, but we do we do get some idea of what the aftermath is like and we do get a sort of fairly clear idea of how horrible the battle is just from the behaviour of the sort of the horribly English troops and things afterwards.

47
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I mean, it isn't really very much about that battle, and all the guidebooks suggest that it's, you know, the doctor goes to the Battle of Colloden.

48
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No, he doesn't at all.

49
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No, it's not really about that at all.

50
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And it all just sort of turns into taking prisoners of war.

51
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And then sort of selling them, they're going to be sold as slaves.

52
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It's a series of comedy set pieces with some real underlying drama underneath.

53
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And that's why I feel, personally, and I've said this many times before, the historicals are the only ones that really get to the viewer, get to me as a viewer, because they actually happen and they mean something.

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This really is present danger and whatever is going to happen.

55
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And it could actually affect the characters in a very real way.

56
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We know it's happened.

57
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It's a fixed point.

58
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So when you see, especially in this story.

59
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When you see Paddy locking it up and putting on every accent under the carry-on sun, Are you been doing for the very 1st time, don't you wish Billy had done this drag as the doctor?

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You've got all these crazy, wonderful things happening with a very real sense of there's, there's, there's genuine darkness in some of these characters and the motivations are awful and the sense of, of dire threat, just, just a shoulder turn away is ever present in this one.

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You see, I mean, I think I think that this story more than, uh, you know, any of the others that we're going to discuss in season four, and, you know, we said uh, last time that season four, just doesn't survive very well.

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It's the season that was most seriously affected by the junking of past episodes.

63
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And so none of the highlanders exists and none of power of the Daleks exist.

64
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And the final episode of 10th Planet doesn't exist and the 1st episode of Underwater Menace doesn't exist.

65
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So we're in a run of like 12 episodes, none of which exist.

66
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And crucially, it's the beginning of Troughton's doctor.

67
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And so it seems to me that, that if the Highlanders is fondly remembered, it's not fondly remembered, because it really particularly does what the other historicals do, because remember, the other historicals sort of fall into the 2 camps.

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One is like the Aztecs where history's a terrifying place that we have to escape from.

69
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And then the other one is the sort of comedy, you know, Romans, Donald Cotton approach where we're doing some things here.

70
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It's, you couldn't really say it falls into either of those 2 camps at all.

71
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You know, like I don't know that slave traders, you know, is a particularly strong genre that has, you know, outstandingly interesting tropes that we all wanted to see.

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Sorry, that we all wanted to see covered by Doctor Who.

73
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So it's not a Donald Cotton style historical.

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And it's not, it's not seriously enough, serious enough to be a Luka Roddy historical.

75
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And I mean, what Xander does is he just says it's a savage deconstruction of the historical as a genre.

76
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And what you do really...

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What you get is you get Trout and doing all of his party pieces, Trout, and doing these things that Hartner would never have done in a 1000000 years, like drag, like the comedy Anoverian accent, like slamming the guy's head into the table repeatedly.

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And, you know, like, you know, all of that came from notes from Jerry Davis and Dennis Lloyd.

79
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They actually wanted all of that.

80
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That was the reason they ended up hiring Trout and it was the comedy labels and trying to get it more that pitch it to the, a lot of that was happening in British cinema.

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At the time, you would get violence with comedy together.

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It was all post- postmortem before postmortem.

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But that pre-post-mortem.

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Yeah, thank you.

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Chin chin.

86
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Yeah, that whole, that whole, exacerbate the drama by throwing in the unexpected, the comedy over the top.

87
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The Bond films were doing it really well at the time too.

88
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Thunderball was the last bond just before this, but we'll get to the underwater menace.

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You can watch Thunderball and the underwater menace and not tell the difference.

90
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They're almost identical.

91
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See, that's why I think that this story is so important because it is at a time where the producers are saying we want to get rid of the historicals, but they get quite a good sendoff because this is the 1st historical that to me anyway feels like it's a drama 1st and it's a historical story second.

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Yes, I agree.

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Because the Aztecs and the Massacre, good though they are, Their whole shtick is it's a historical story.

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Whereas this, as well as having the historical backdrop in historical events, you've got the characters pursuing their own line of drama as well.

95
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And it's really important for defining Patrick Troughton's character as the doctor because as you said, Nathan, These are lots of things that the 1st doctor would never do, you know.

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I'm not a woman and I prefer trousers to petticoats any day.

97
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I hate dresses.

98
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That just would have put page to that, whereas trowns just like, ooh, yes, I'll have a bit of this frog and a bit of that frog.

99
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Oh, and yes, I'll have one of these lovely hats.

100
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Or I should like a hat like that.

101
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I should like a hat like that.

102
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You know, like, I think I think if we if we had were actually able to see that stuff, when when we get to the underwater menace, and we actually finally get to see Trouton's performance for the 1st time in episode 2, because, you know, the rest of the time we've been listening to audios are watching slideshows, even in underwater menace, he's just a pleasure to watch.

103
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And I imagine that I would like the Highlanders if I could see Troughton in it.

104
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But as far as I can see, it's just another tiresome trip to a past prison followed rapidly by the pub, you know, in the great historical tradition.

105
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And it really doesn't sort of amount to anything and there's a vague bit of casual racism in it as well.

106
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And, and, yes, we're taking Scott's people to Barbados to work in the, in the sugar mines as how that works, because they're much better workers than the, uh, than the black people who would otherwise do it.

107
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It is like there's something kind of seedy and unpleasant about the whole slavery being anyway.

108
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But remember, you're not you're not supposed to agree.

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No, no, I... in any way.

110
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Something I quite like about it is, and this is especially relevant today with the recent failed Scottish independence vote.

111
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This story does not patronise the Scots.

112
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No, it really doesn't.

113
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And it treats...

114
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Okay, there are some, you know, there's some really kind of almost pantomimic characters and they're very black and white boomtish.

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But it is treated as if they're all adults and there are some really lovely stuff.

116
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The closer you get to the driving forces characters within the narrative of Ben and Polly and the doctor.

117
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And Jamie doesn't really count so far because he wasn't a companion yet.

118
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Barely in it, exactly.

119
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He doesn't actually get much to do.

120
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Kirsty gets more to do than J.

121
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Thank you, because that's what I wanted to say.

122
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If you're looking around for someone to join the TARDIS crew and who really has a response.

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All this season, in fact, will see how secondary female characters present each and every time a great response to a story and a great integration with the cast and then bug it off in this later episode and we just take someone yet.

124
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Else, I haven't got to Debbie Ward.

125
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Waterfield, yes.

126
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Debbie Waterfield yet.

127
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Debbie Waterfield.

128
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Yes, how fantastic is Hannah Gordon?

129
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And if anyone remembers, you know, had a youth in the 70s and remembers Hannah Gordon in Howard's way, or as I remember her, 1st sitting on that fence on Malcolm and Wise, singing Michelle LeGron's Windmills of Your Mind, as her clothes were slowly blown off in the windmill behind her, lost its sails.

130
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She's indelible.

131
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It was the 70s.

132
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And she's she's a terrific actress and really well respected and you can see why here when she was very young and studying up.

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She holds those scenes, the moments with Polly's shines no better than when she's up against an equal, but from the past, so who doesn't have her sophistication into her 20th century books part.

134
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They are so good.

135
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That's one of the reasons I really love this story.

136
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Especially when they trap algae down the hole.

137
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I mean, you can just love the euphemism.

138
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It's so true.

139
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You got to lift that scene out of the Highlanders.

140
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Chuck it in today with Clara.

141
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Yep, no one would buy it.

142
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Do you know, it's a funny thing too.

143
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And it's something that starts happening with Ben and Polly because they do the smugglers before this and then the Highlanders and they're the 2 historicals.

144
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And in each case, they're portrayed as being able to outwit or perform better than the historical character.

145
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So, you know, they dupe Tom in the smugglers into releasing them from prison.

146
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Here, Polly is better than Kirsty.

147
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Like Kirsty is, you know, a fabulous Scotswoman who, like I could just imagine her, you know, punching Polly's head in, you know, about the 2nd thought, but she's crying all the time and she's sort of pathetic and Polly has to, you know, take control.

148
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And when it's trapping algae.

149
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And I love algae.

150
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I think he's the best thing about this.

151
00:14:25.980 --> 00:14:35.399
So it's Algernon Finge with a double F, lowercase double F. Um, and he's sort of terribly positive.

152
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He's not very nice, you know what I mean?

153
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Yeah, but no, is he particularly bad?

154
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But he's sort of a class member put out of place on a field of battle and forced to behave.

155
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Like, the reason I feel we have compassion for him or an understanding with him will go along with him is because he doesn't really fit with what's going on with the narrative.

156
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He's actually quite a modern nice lad who's put into the wrong place.

157
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In fact, what happens is you see him mistreating his subordinates and being really horrible to them?

158
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And then you see polypatronizing him and getting the better of him.

159
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And then eventually he gets humiliated by her a few more times.

160
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But then he becomes a hero at the end.

161
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And he actually does.

162
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He actually gets a proper arc, proper character development, like you would in a modern story.

163
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On modern sitcom.

164
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It's like George Siegel and Glenda Jackson in touch of Class, which came a few years late or any of the Peter Sellers movies, already any of those story arcs of The Alan the Pussycat, again, which came out just around this time, Streisand and George Siegel, exactly the same character.

165
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Algernon thinks she's sort of feckless.

166
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When I said nice, nice, meaning the etymology is, you know, the original definition of nice in mediaeval English was the action of a knife through flesh.

167
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So it's not, yeah, the knife actually means the cut, the action of the cut.

168
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It does, it doesn't look like it tells, what does it mean?

169
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does it?

170
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Turn the Latin to a nest.

171
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Your switch means ignorant.

172
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Because...

173
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I'll find the source.

174
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Oh, how perfect.

175
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I'll find the source because there is a point where...

176
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It's a nice means...

177
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It means the action of a cutting.

178
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Dear listener, please stay tuned for the Nice Wars.

179
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We'll cut all this out.

180
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But he's very modern and you can see him in a suit sitting in Thatcher's Britain just letting horrible things happen to during the G or post thatcher's Britain in the GFC.

181
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Horrible things happening to people with a mortgage and going, oh, well, it doesn't affect me.

182
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I not in that class and I'm in, it doesn't appear.

183
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But then in my life.

184
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Polly would come along and redeem him and he'd become a tremendous person.

185
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Not before showing him the area as well.

186
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Yeah, not before humiliating him and calling him algae and teasing him and things.

187
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And that's really fun.

188
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Like, she's sort of terrifically fun in it.

189
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Ben is sort of fairly unmemorable although he does get to jump in water, which is sort of terribly exciting.

190
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Yeah, we do get a few blurry tellies of thumb of Ben in a wet t-shirt.

191
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I've got no complaints there.

192
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Is this the moment where we start to see where we start to see Ben?

193
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Oh, I think really could have given a lot and just isn't served.

194
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Well, this is, I mean, this is, the thing that we haven't mentioned is that, of course, this is Jamie's 1st story and Jamie's really barely in it.

195
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He doesn't have that much to do.

196
00:17:21.420 --> 00:17:33.180
He is in it all the way through. was surprised by that. like his performance is memorable and I think it was just the strength of his performance that got him through, as we'll see later with John Levine. you know, you're given a small part and you still give it your all.

197
00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:34.319
Okay, you can have a regular part.

198
00:17:34.380 --> 00:17:40.019
But yeah, I was surprised by just how little Jamie was in the story and had to do in the story.

199
00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:41.339
Yeah, yeah.

200
00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:45.599
I was, you couldn't see him being built up to being taken away.

201
00:17:45.660 --> 00:17:46.559
Do you know what I mean?

202
00:17:46.619 --> 00:17:55.740
He's not auditioning in the story itself to be a new companion and it's just that he happens to be around sort of thing when they're getting on board the TARDIS.

203
00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:59.279
So it is, you know, it's a little bit surprising.

204
00:17:59.339 --> 00:18:01.559
And it is the beginning of the sidelining of Ben.

205
00:18:01.619 --> 00:18:10.440
I can barely remember anything that Ben really does in this story and from here on, he has to kind of share time with Jamie until they eventually get rid of him.

206
00:18:11.099 --> 00:18:22.140
It's been accused of killing off the historicals, but I actually think it's the most successful historicals as a set piece for the actors to do something.

207
00:18:22.140 --> 00:18:33.720
Again, that's not exactly immediate, possibly more so now for us as modern viewers with the results of the Scottish independence elections just last month as we record this.

208
00:18:33.779 --> 00:18:36.240
But for the viewers at the time.

209
00:18:36.299 --> 00:18:39.059
Simply to say, yes, this is something we've read of.

210
00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:40.259
We've all read Rob Roy.

211
00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:49.920
I mean this is very much, you know, in the field of Walter Scott. and the books that kids would have read before they've seen this story.

212
00:18:49.980 --> 00:18:51.299
There is an immediacy to it.

213
00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:54.599
There's still friction between the Scottish and the English.

214
00:18:54.660 --> 00:18:55.980
Just look at the football games at the time.

215
00:18:56.039 --> 00:19:04.500
There's still lots of levels at which this has, okay, it doesn't have buzzing spaceships and solar discs and...

216
00:19:04.619 --> 00:19:05.460
It has no road.

217
00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:08.700
Well, some of the performances, but actually, all told.

218
00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:09.839
It's got lovely nuances.

219
00:19:09.900 --> 00:19:17.099
It's got terrific, um, side players, solicitor Ray is fantastic and the part players behind them.

220
00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:18.900
I really do enjoy this.

221
00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:20.220
It's a go to audio.

222
00:19:20.279 --> 00:19:26.279
Again, I would never watch these things on the reconstructions because it's the subtleties of the voices.

223
00:19:26.339 --> 00:19:28.680
The way they've done these 2 in the 60s.

224
00:19:28.740 --> 00:19:34.380
It's British television was British character actors standing in front of a backdrop talking at each other.

225
00:19:34.440 --> 00:19:37.859
It's still very much as you do Shakespeare or any other.

226
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:46.859
So it works really well as a radio play and I really enjoy it as such and I listened to it again this week and enjoyed it just as much as I did many years ago when I 1st heard it.

227
00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:48.599
I think you're right Richard.

228
00:19:48.660 --> 00:19:55.380
It's not so much the death of the historical as it is a nice going away party for the historical genre.

229
00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:59.819
And I think it does send it off with as much as much of a bang as possible.

230
00:19:59.940 --> 00:20:04.079
And the last thing I'd like to say about the story is the villain is a lawyer.

231
00:20:04.140 --> 00:20:04.799
What more do you need?

232
00:20:04.859 --> 00:20:06.960
Yeah, very modern, isn't it?

233
00:20:07.019 --> 00:20:09.839
So can I get the last word, since this is my...

234
00:20:09.900 --> 00:20:14.940
I think that it's a bit shapeless plot-wise, that nothing very much happens.

235
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:19.559
It doesn't compare to other historicals, like, say the Romans or the Aztecs.

236
00:20:19.619 --> 00:20:23.880
It does seem to be a lot of faffing about in a prison than a pub for 4 episodes.

237
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:33.059
And I think the only thing that would that would really get me to like it would be if we rediscovered it and I got to see Trout and doing his acting.

238
00:20:33.059 --> 00:20:35.700
Because I think that's very much what it's about.

239
00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:43.140
It's about giving Trout and, you know, his 1st regular story and giving him a chance to do some fun stuff.

240
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:48.299
And I have no doubt at all that he would be, you know, compelling to watch.

241
00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:54.660
But without the ability to actually watch a minute, I just thought the whole thing was a bit a bit tiresome, really.

242
00:20:57.299 --> 00:20:58.980
Very harsh.

243
00:20:59.039 --> 00:20:59.940
It's really enjoyable.

244
00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:01.319
It's a lovely start, though.

245
00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:11.400
Oh, my scaly gilt hats, come on.

246
00:21:11.460 --> 00:21:12.539
That was very exciting.

247
00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:14.640
Oh, dear idea.

248
00:21:14.700 --> 00:21:15.059
Thank you.

249
00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:17.099
Guess where we all are, folks.

250
00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:18.539
Well, where are we?

251
00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:19.740
Where are we?

252
00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:20.700
Where the hell are we?

253
00:21:20.759 --> 00:21:22.200
Where in Atlanta, are we?

254
00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:24.480
You can tell we use salt water.

255
00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:32.579
And the Gillishness. and yes, we're an underwater menace, and thank you for that beautiful intro, I believe, that we couldn't have gone any closer to.

256
00:21:32.700 --> 00:21:52.200
Well, before we started the podcast, we were listening to the score, John Barry's score of the Thunderball, which was the last Sean Connery 007, mostly an underwater romp that came out pretty much just before this episode, and you, when you listen to it again or watch the telly construction snap.coms, It's.

257
00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:54.240
Why?

258
00:21:54.839 --> 00:22:04.319
There's a whole lot of go to, if you're not doing space effects, if you're not doing, what's that T word we keep using?

259
00:22:04.380 --> 00:22:09.059
If you're not using flying discs and mutant renegades, you're using, you're going underwater.

260
00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:13.079
Jerry Anderson did it after Fireball XO 5 with Stingray just a year before.

261
00:22:13.140 --> 00:22:24.420
Um, Irwin Allen after lost in, well, lost in space also did um, voyage to the bottom of the bathtub with the sea view, which is, with Barbara Eaton in the film version of Walter Pigeon.

262
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:27.960
It's actually really dull, but really pretty. pretty to look at.

263
00:22:28.019 --> 00:22:31.440
The film version, nothing happens for about an hour. and then in the last 10 minutes.

264
00:22:31.500 --> 00:22:32.400
It's like, oh, really?

265
00:22:32.460 --> 00:22:33.599
That person's the traitor?

266
00:22:33.660 --> 00:22:34.079
Wow.

267
00:22:34.140 --> 00:22:36.240
It's proper eating been gorgeous.

268
00:22:36.299 --> 00:22:37.799
There's lots of good reasons to watch it.

269
00:22:37.859 --> 00:22:43.559
So this one's kind of following the whole thing and you're watching it or listening to it and all I can think of.

270
00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:48.660
And I've heard it many times because I keep wanting to say, thinking to myself, I'm missing something.

271
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:50.039
It's got to be better.

272
00:22:50.099 --> 00:22:51.900
I can't I haven't got it yet.

273
00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:53.160
There's got to be more to this.

274
00:22:53.220 --> 00:22:54.839
Is there?

275
00:22:54.900 --> 00:22:56.940
I still haven't worked that bit out.

276
00:22:57.000 --> 00:22:57.960
It's terrible.

277
00:22:58.140 --> 00:23:00.480
No, it's really shockingly bad.

278
00:23:00.539 --> 00:23:04.380
And it's, it's, it's just terrible B movie rubbish.

279
00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:05.279
Do you know what I mean?

280
00:23:05.339 --> 00:23:17.220
Like we've had, you know, Doctor Who has gone to strange places and done extraordinary things, even, you know, in the historicals, it's done things that are sort of unprecedented and, you know, at least attempt to be interesting.

281
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:27.779
But I mean, this is, you know, tying people to volcanos and and, you know, like robed cultists and and absurd, mad scientists and things.

282
00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:30.779
I mean, the whole thing is just incredibly crummy.

283
00:23:30.839 --> 00:23:33.900
It's sort of reasonably entertaining, I guess.

284
00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:34.920
You know what I mean?

285
00:23:34.980 --> 00:23:37.079
It's sort of funny and sort of fun.

286
00:23:37.140 --> 00:23:42.420
But the premise is so just crummy and uninteresting.

287
00:23:43.259 --> 00:23:58.559
Well, the premise being there's a mad scientist who wants to blow the world up for no adequately kind of explained reason and he has control of the people of Atlantis who worshipped Amdo and...

288
00:23:58.619 --> 00:24:08.940
And he lives as usually do, and he lives under a, well, you get to his under underwater lair, through an extinct volcano on an island and then whisked away to this extraordinary base.

289
00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:12.480
Isn't this every bond film that came out after 1965?

290
00:24:12.539 --> 00:24:15.779
These are trying to do Ken Adam on a Ray Qic budget.

291
00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:25.140
Yeah, but as plot goes, even the fish people, which whom we've cited so far, please have a look, if we can put an image up, please have a look at some of the images.

292
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:31.619
They're actually not that much different from the 1st cybermen, and we didn't criticise them for having stretchy masks and behaviour.

293
00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:34.980
Well, I don't think it's so much the stretchy marks. stretching masks.

294
00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:37.619
I think it's really the gills at the side.

295
00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:42.480
It's a very obvious join between the mask and the face because the mask doesn't cover all of the phase.

296
00:24:42.539 --> 00:24:44.700
And the Kirby wires...

297
00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:46.019
You had young lady view.

298
00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:46.440
It's true.

299
00:24:46.500 --> 00:24:52.140
You had very stingray, but you had young lady viewers writing in to the BBC asking how to make the costumes.

300
00:24:52.200 --> 00:24:54.299
It was kind of popular for yeah, yeah.

301
00:24:54.359 --> 00:24:58.859
Well, they look like a very sort of funky 1920s bathing outfit.

302
00:24:59.880 --> 00:25:01.680
Could I swimming?

303
00:25:01.740 --> 00:25:03.720
And it's got the 1st one that's got a whole new score.

304
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:05.519
Stanley Simpson, isn't it?

305
00:25:05.579 --> 00:25:07.140
Mind you, it's...

306
00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:09.119
Well, it's pretty confronting.

307
00:25:09.180 --> 00:25:10.920
It's a very romophone band.

308
00:25:10.980 --> 00:25:11.700
It's a common phone.

309
00:25:11.700 --> 00:25:14.039
It is, it feels very short, Chmele, again.

310
00:25:14.099 --> 00:25:35.099
We've got sense of very old SF brought up into the present as they were doing with design and with architecture and interiors and graphics at the time, looking back to the term of the century, so the William Morris period, of George Mellis was a part, if you like, of that very baroque.

311
00:25:35.160 --> 00:25:37.200
This is kind of like underwater steampunk.

312
00:25:37.259 --> 00:25:38.339
It should be fantastic.

313
00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:40.380
It does do a lot of 007.

314
00:25:40.619 --> 00:25:50.700
Joseph first, who's the fulfilling your speaking of, he's got a reputation for being appalling in this and just so Maximilian Vaughn skill and over the top.

315
00:25:50.759 --> 00:25:53.579
But everyone performing in the 60s was doing this.

316
00:25:53.640 --> 00:26:03.960
You look at a look at, we mentioned Walter Pidgeon, who was also famous for the Forbidden Planet as the, if you like, the Prospero character.

317
00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:10.380
I'm Francis's father, who's, you know, discovered the lost city under the ground.

318
00:26:10.440 --> 00:26:11.880
It's pretty much the same part, actually.

319
00:26:11.940 --> 00:26:14.039
But, you know, again, we had Von Skull.

320
00:26:14.099 --> 00:26:20.880
We had, um, We had all kinds of silly villains, Blowfeld, had yet to be revealed in the 007 films.

321
00:26:20.940 --> 00:26:24.420
But we, this is the standard for the time.

322
00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:25.740
So it should be working.

323
00:26:25.799 --> 00:26:32.099
Yeah, I mean, you know, it is it's sort of entertaining, but it is something a bit tired about it.

324
00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:38.099
And I don't mean Joseph 1st, you know, hilarious villain, because we all love a hilarious camp villain.

325
00:26:38.099 --> 00:26:42.119
And that, that cliffang into episode 3 is brilliantly funny.

326
00:26:42.180 --> 00:26:43.319
I mean, it is terrific.

327
00:26:43.380 --> 00:26:47.279
And nasty, Camille, do it together. two, three.

328
00:26:47.339 --> 00:26:49.799
Nothing is about...

329
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:50.460
Stop me now.

330
00:26:50.519 --> 00:26:51.720
It's wonderful.

331
00:26:51.779 --> 00:26:52.200
There you go.

332
00:26:52.259 --> 00:26:53.940
You wanna do it at home yourself, don't you?

333
00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:56.880
You know, this thing ran over budget.

334
00:26:56.940 --> 00:26:58.619
Do you remember by how much this thing?

335
00:26:58.680 --> 00:26:59.700
How many episodes of four?

336
00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:00.720
45 P.

337
00:27:00.779 --> 00:27:01.500
It's only four.

338
00:27:01.559 --> 00:27:09.960
Well, the average runner, and it happened with Doctor Who, because it got the same budget as a standard drama show, and there's nothing standard as if you'd been following us, too, isn't there?

339
00:27:10.019 --> 00:27:12.240
There's been nothing about it that's been standard.

340
00:27:12.299 --> 00:27:13.140
The average was £200.

341
00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:17.519
This run over budget, 2200 pounds.

342
00:27:17.579 --> 00:27:18.960
Goodness.

343
00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:20.940
There's lots of expensive stuff with water and things.

344
00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:24.720
Yeah, I suppose that might have been it. like waterproofing the set and whatnot.

345
00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:28.019
Yeah, it's like they do with the sting, right?

346
00:27:28.079 --> 00:27:32.160
I mean, there's some beautiful sets, but again, you just don't see because we haven't found them.

347
00:27:32.220 --> 00:27:35.400
Oh, we haven't released yet that episode two, have we?

348
00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:36.660
Yeah, episode 2 though.

349
00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:40.380
Oh, no, we have, there's no possible way we could see.

350
00:27:40.380 --> 00:27:41.759
Although it's very good.

351
00:27:44.819 --> 00:27:45.000
Oh.

352
00:27:45.059 --> 00:27:46.680
No idea what's happening there.

353
00:27:46.740 --> 00:27:49.019
It was meant to be released earlier this year.

354
00:27:49.079 --> 00:27:51.359
There were going to be episodes one and 4 animated.

355
00:27:51.420 --> 00:27:58.559
The animation house we were working on it have confirmed that the BBC has stopped, asked them to stop work on the animation.

356
00:27:58.619 --> 00:28:08.160
Last I heard, someone I know on Facebook had emailed BBC customer service who said Underwater Man should be released in some form early next year.

357
00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:10.980
That means I don't know.

358
00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:21.480
The whole BBC line, the whole classic Doctor Who BBC line, like last year, they released Terror of the Zygons, and so that was the last fully extant story.

359
00:28:21.539 --> 00:28:26.880
So I think every episode that exists apart from Underwater Menace 2. is now available on DVD.

360
00:28:26.940 --> 00:28:28.859
Which is a good achievement, you know.

361
00:28:28.920 --> 00:28:31.380
Well, I mean, it started in 2001, I think.

362
00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:35.099
Yeah, they took them 12 years as opposed to 21 on video.

363
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:40.740
But the whole thing just stopped and there was no announcement.

364
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:41.579
No, no.

365
00:28:41.579 --> 00:28:47.400
I still checked the website every so often to see if anything's coming out, but it was a, it really fizzled out.

366
00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:50.039
I was in the uh, in the most depressing way, I think.

367
00:28:50.099 --> 00:28:51.059
It didn't.

368
00:28:51.180 --> 00:28:57.000
It's sad because I want to see, this is one that I still don't quite get why, why it appears to not be working.

369
00:28:57.059 --> 00:28:59.579
Just the 1st we've mentioned before.

370
00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:06.299
It had a reasonably starring role in a big picture, 55 days in Peking before he made this.

371
00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:07.799
He was a legit actor.

372
00:29:07.859 --> 00:29:36.059
He works really well with Paddy in those scenes when Trump has been kind of overdoing it and maybe, you know, getting a bit tenancy in the strength of his performance, but then when you put him up against Professor Zarov, you've got that point where Patrick, because he's such a good actor, realises if somebody's chewing the scenes, don't go and dislocate your jaw trying to match him, step right back and almost whisper and underplay, and you get real tension between the 2 of them.

373
00:29:36.119 --> 00:29:37.680
In that episode, none of us have seen.

374
00:29:37.740 --> 00:29:40.440
No, no, we're allowed to have seen that because that was a bit.

375
00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:45.839
The confrontation between Zaroff and Trouton in episode 2 was actually released on the BBC. website.

376
00:29:45.900 --> 00:29:50.519
And so you can see Trouton, Trouton underplays it fabulously well.

377
00:29:50.579 --> 00:29:53.880
You know, it's that why do you want to destroy the world?

378
00:29:53.940 --> 00:29:56.279
You know, again, that's a problem.

379
00:29:56.339 --> 00:29:58.980
There's no reason for it in the televised version of it.

380
00:29:59.039 --> 00:29:59.700
Why wouldn't you?

381
00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:00.839
It's so super fun.

382
00:30:00.900 --> 00:30:04.140
And you know, I'm following and I have a slightly Germanic accent.

383
00:30:04.200 --> 00:30:08.339
So I've got that really cool because that's what you do in the 60s.

384
00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:11.819
Yeah, that's, yeah, in the script version.

385
00:30:11.880 --> 00:30:14.220
There's a whole reason for that and it's explained.

386
00:30:14.279 --> 00:30:15.779
His wife died in a car crash.

387
00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:17.279
It's just not transmitted.

388
00:30:17.400 --> 00:30:18.240
And their young child.

389
00:30:18.299 --> 00:30:24.180
Yeah, yeah, a young child is killed in the car crash, and they don't include it because it's too confrontational for a junior audience.

390
00:30:24.420 --> 00:30:27.599
The funny thing about, well, maybe...

391
00:30:27.660 --> 00:30:27.960
Really?

392
00:30:28.019 --> 00:30:31.200
I just don't think it sits very well in an episode where people address as plastic.

393
00:30:31.259 --> 00:30:33.299
It would have made a bit more sense.

394
00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:39.240
The interesting thing about that is 2 years later, when Kevin Stoney was playing Tobias Vaughan.

395
00:30:39.299 --> 00:30:42.720
He was trying to get a handle on why this character would act in this way.

396
00:30:42.779 --> 00:30:47.279
And he came up with the idea that Spice Von's family were killed in a car crash.

397
00:30:47.339 --> 00:30:49.200
It's the go to, isn't it?

398
00:30:49.259 --> 00:30:51.299
It's Stroker and UFO. or something?

399
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:52.140
Just look up those.

400
00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:54.599
Well, no one wore seatbelts until...

401
00:30:54.660 --> 00:31:04.740
I suppose if you look at, you know, even stuff like Astro Boy, the motivation for the villain in that is that his son, his son was tragically killed in a car accident.

402
00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:07.500
You need to get some rubber bumpers on those cars.

403
00:31:07.500 --> 00:31:12.359
So, further to Joseph first, Joseph first was actually in a bond film.

404
00:31:12.420 --> 00:31:19.259
He was, and later on, he was in, for, correct me, if I'm a dermatographer, playing apparently Blowfeld's mistress.

405
00:31:19.319 --> 00:31:23.640
It seems, well, Blowfield, London, like, and that's the only Bond film where Blowfield does drag.

406
00:31:23.700 --> 00:31:25.019
Yes, that's true.

407
00:31:25.079 --> 00:31:26.400
That's played by.

408
00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:28.440
That's great.

409
00:31:28.500 --> 00:31:30.900
Who is a brilliant actor, but as blowfeld?

410
00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:32.160
You're just going, what?

411
00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:34.500
Crazy, that film.

412
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:35.579
It's not very good.

413
00:31:35.640 --> 00:31:37.619
Well, it's this, that's my point.

414
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:39.119
It's no worse than this.

415
00:31:39.180 --> 00:31:52.859
And of course, Joseph 1st we own him in our country because he ended up his last role I ever saw him in was the mid-70s blockbuster soap, and yet it was because it's the soap that actually started the big selling to the UK called the young doctors.

416
00:31:52.920 --> 00:31:54.299
In the younger.

417
00:31:54.359 --> 00:31:55.319
He was the young doctors.

418
00:31:55.380 --> 00:31:55.799
He was a doctor.

419
00:31:55.859 --> 00:31:58.019
I don't think he was Gwen Plum running the snack club.

420
00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:06.779
But with Marty Roan and Delaney and Mark Holden and all the little everybody else who later came to something big in the 70s or 80s are singers or whatever.

421
00:32:06.839 --> 00:32:08.759
Yeah, there was Joseph first.

422
00:32:08.819 --> 00:32:27.839
No, he spent his, he spent his last years here, in fact, he passed away here. quite recently, in the last couple of years, and the loose cannon reconstruction includes an interview with him, which was arranged by Dallas Jones and Dwayne Bunny of the Doctor Club of Australia.

423
00:32:27.900 --> 00:32:30.420
I believe Dwayne's now moved to Hobart.

424
00:32:30.480 --> 00:32:31.859
But yeah, they arranged that interview.

425
00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:36.119
Joseph 1st speaks very fondly about his time on doctor and working with Patrick Troughton.

426
00:32:36.180 --> 00:32:38.640
So if nothing else, he had a wow.

427
00:32:38.700 --> 00:32:40.259
I hope he did.

428
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:41.160
One person did.

429
00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:43.680
I think we can really blame whatever's going wrong.

430
00:32:43.740 --> 00:32:46.440
I don't know if you can look at the director.

431
00:32:46.500 --> 00:32:47.579
That was Julia Smith.

432
00:32:47.640 --> 00:32:55.500
The last one she'd done was the smugglers, because they obviously trusted her with location shoots and budgets, cough, before that.

433
00:32:55.559 --> 00:33:00.180
I think the smuggles, we've talked about it before, from what we can see, looks gorgeous.

434
00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:01.200
Yeah, agree.

435
00:33:01.259 --> 00:33:04.920
And they thought, yeah, she can pull off something that needs to be.

436
00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:12.539
Okay, there are 2 reasons why this story was the big one and was allowed to overrun the way that it did budget wise and whatever.

437
00:33:12.599 --> 00:33:15.960
It is Innis Lloyd's, this is the Doctor Who I want to do.

438
00:33:16.019 --> 00:33:25.980
It was just like we had John Wiles wanting to do the arc, the arc, thank you, as being, you know, to go, I don't think that was entirely unsuccessful.

439
00:33:26.039 --> 00:33:29.339
Yeah, I hate, but the arc is fine, but yeah, we just discussed that.

440
00:33:29.339 --> 00:33:31.500
It's just execution.

441
00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:41.700
And people we know, our friends who were young viewers at the time say that that's one of the 2 or 3 they remember very clearly as viewers in Australia from the web planets, the other one actually.

442
00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:43.380
So it certainly had a visual strength.

443
00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:47.039
They wanted this to be potently on the level of drama.

444
00:33:47.099 --> 00:33:58.619
Let's not forget this whole season, and this will, I think, affect the rest of this podcast once we look at it, was just like Emma Peel's, Diana Riggs colour season of the Avengers.

445
00:33:58.680 --> 00:34:04.619
This was the one they were trying to, Inisloyd was trying to sell to the US.

446
00:34:04.680 --> 00:34:16.380
So everything was a marketable blanket product with a one sentence idea that, it's kind of, you might want to say the way we watched Doctor Who now in the Moffat era.

447
00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:25.980
Stephen Moffatt did say the series 7, what he wanted to put out, were episodes, which were like mini feature films in themselves, each of them with a tagline, a central idea.

448
00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:27.480
So yeah, you can definitely say that.

449
00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:30.960
And I think you can fairly say that because there's nothing wrong with that idea on its own.

450
00:34:31.019 --> 00:34:32.579
How do you pull it off?

451
00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:41.940
Most of the time in the Trouton era, the one sentence pitch is monsters of some kind, invader, base of some kind. you know what I mean?

452
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:44.219
And we haven't quite settled down to that yet.

453
00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:49.920
So we don't get the variety that we get even in the reasonably forgettable series 7, I think.

454
00:34:49.980 --> 00:34:51.960
But thank you for bringing that up.

455
00:34:52.019 --> 00:35:12.179
Because the repetition of the plot, every single story, the cottage under siege, the base under siege that we end up getting is very much the Avengers style and when it gets really apart from, it's only because the performances are mesmerising as our actors are in this, but the actual plot lines are execrable.

456
00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:17.159
It's the same dole down thing because that's what Americans networks wanted.

457
00:35:17.219 --> 00:35:20.039
The whole point of syndication is, mix them up out of order.

458
00:35:20.099 --> 00:35:21.179
It's the same plot.

459
00:35:21.239 --> 00:35:28.559
The casual viewer, you're not going to get I'm totally unlike British and Australian audiences where you turn on and just keep watching.

460
00:35:28.619 --> 00:35:34.380
US television didn't work in that way and you would jump in and out maybe a few times a season.

461
00:35:34.440 --> 00:35:37.980
They wanted something that was comfortable and predigested.

462
00:35:38.039 --> 00:35:46.619
So the whole thing, as we'll get to later on with a Doctor Who based under siege story, was the deliberate thing to appeal to a foreign market.

463
00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:56.039
The other thing I wanted to say then is that another reason you might want to put the failing down to is just the writer and the director who was having a hard time.

464
00:35:56.099 --> 00:36:00.360
We're just talking about Julia Smith and how she was, I would say, successful on the smugglers.

465
00:36:00.420 --> 00:36:03.059
But in this one, she was spotted.

466
00:36:03.119 --> 00:36:11.639
Anika Wills talks about it in a biography, catching Juliet crying after the recording of an episode in a corridor, because things were going so badly for her.

467
00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:16.860
Patrick Trouton was calling her names on set and the 3 junior leagues.

468
00:36:16.920 --> 00:36:19.860
And Anaka did join in and freely admits to it.

469
00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:24.179
And because the 3 junior junior leagues thought this utterly ridiculous, unquote.

470
00:36:24.239 --> 00:36:30.659
So it wasn't really going well for any of the performances, running performers or production, running horribly off course.

471
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:39.659
And the writer, Jeffrey Orme, I don't think, quite had that well of Terry Southern style or Michael Willard.

472
00:36:39.719 --> 00:36:51.780
Well, you look at the other writers for the bond pictures or the rom-coms of the 60s of the time that just put in a little bit more walks into it and made that kind of level work.

473
00:36:51.780 --> 00:36:55.260
Jeffrey Orme was famous for pretty much for one thing.

474
00:36:55.320 --> 00:37:03.780
It was the old Mother Riley films which were hugely popular cinema drag acts of the 1930s.

475
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:05.940
They were Browns Boys.

476
00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:10.619
Well, but without actually, yeah, really much like that.

477
00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:14.039
Maybe without some of the batty humour, but not far off.

478
00:37:14.099 --> 00:37:27.659
They were so popular that they ran opposite season 6 of Doctor Who on the ITV regionals, and were matching Joe 19 in Land of the Giants for ratings. and matching Doctor Who as well.

479
00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:31.320
So yeah, Jeffrey Orm was seen as a shortest thing.

480
00:37:31.739 --> 00:37:34.380
I still don't get why this doesn't work.

481
00:37:34.440 --> 00:37:35.579
Nathan, what do you think?

482
00:37:35.639 --> 00:37:36.840
Well, I mean, I think...

483
00:37:36.840 --> 00:37:39.659
When you say it doesn't work.

484
00:37:39.719 --> 00:37:42.780
It's not completely lacking in entertainment value.

485
00:37:42.840 --> 00:37:49.019
They're exhausting sort of cliches and things and peril and it doesn't serve poly very well.

486
00:37:49.019 --> 00:37:50.460
Yeah, not at all.

487
00:37:50.519 --> 00:37:54.000
I'll come to that in a minute with the novelisation, but please do go on.

488
00:37:54.119 --> 00:37:57.360
But there are some things that it is attempting to do.

489
00:37:57.480 --> 00:38:02.460
Like it tries to be sort of visually interesting in a way that compares to Web Planet.

490
00:38:02.519 --> 00:38:03.780
I don't think it pulls it off.

491
00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:11.159
But the strange fish people ballet is an attempt to put something up. on television that is unusual.

492
00:38:11.219 --> 00:38:12.179
Do you know what I mean?

493
00:38:12.239 --> 00:38:16.739
And like, you know, I don't think it comes off, but it's an attempt.

494
00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:28.199
And then I think, This season, you know, there's at least this story and another one coming up that have themes of kind of, you know, economic revolution.

495
00:38:28.260 --> 00:38:49.380
And so, um, the fish people who are essentially slaves, who provide food for the people of Atlantis are exploited, and they're encouraged to strike by, you know, a number of working class characters, the Irish guy and Van and the other guy.

496
00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:50.280
Do you know what I mean?

497
00:38:50.340 --> 00:38:54.360
And so there is a sort of political kind of undercurrent to it.

498
00:38:54.420 --> 00:38:59.159
It is, in fact, that eventually sort of, you know, leads to the resolution of the story.

499
00:38:59.219 --> 00:39:00.179
So I don't know.

500
00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:06.420
I think there are some, there are fitfully interesting things in it, but it's all just a bit of a giant mess, really.

501
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:09.539
I do gather that apparently during script writing.

502
00:39:09.599 --> 00:39:15.179
Geoffrey Horn became quite ill because this was, I think, the 3rd idea he pitched.

503
00:39:15.239 --> 00:39:18.900
So that could go away to explaining some of the script's problems.

504
00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:25.260
I mean, a big part of it that doesn't work is something you touched on earlier, Richard.

505
00:39:25.500 --> 00:39:27.420
So Joseph 1st is on one level of performance.

506
00:39:27.480 --> 00:39:33.239
And it's fine with Patrick because Patrick responds to that with a complimentary, but opposite performance.

507
00:39:33.300 --> 00:39:35.699
Colin Jevons is also on a similar level.

508
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:38.280
I think this is his 1st appearance in Doctor Who.

509
00:39:38.340 --> 00:39:40.199
He would go on to become a very familiar face.

510
00:39:40.260 --> 00:39:41.400
He's one of the surgeons.

511
00:39:41.460 --> 00:39:47.340
He's not, he's, um, uh, he's like Max Caudlebline in the, in this TV show.

512
00:39:47.400 --> 00:39:49.079
He doesn't do another Doctor Who, does he?

513
00:39:49.139 --> 00:39:50.280
Oh, well, not quite.

514
00:39:50.340 --> 00:39:51.360
He does canine and company.

515
00:39:51.420 --> 00:39:52.739
That's right.

516
00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:58.500
But that's the, he's always got this method of acting where he's overacting without even trying.

517
00:39:58.559 --> 00:40:00.900
I think it's he's just got this very distinctive voice.

518
00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:02.039
So his scenes are fine.

519
00:40:02.099 --> 00:40:08.099
But everyone else, all the other supporting cast are trying to get quite naturalistic performances.

520
00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:09.719
And that's the thing.

521
00:40:09.780 --> 00:40:12.420
I actually think Joseph 1st isn't the problem with this story.

522
00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:15.960
I think it's the fact that everyone else is trying to take it far too seriously.

523
00:40:16.019 --> 00:40:16.980
Exactly.

524
00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:18.179
It's meant to be a romp.

525
00:40:18.239 --> 00:40:18.780
Yeah.

526
00:40:18.780 --> 00:40:21.719
But there is a darker side to this story.

527
00:40:21.719 --> 00:40:29.760
And I think I've mentioned it before on the podcast, but a couple of years ago, I was making my way through reading the Trouton Target novels.

528
00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:32.940
And I came across something quite startling in the underwater menace.

529
00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:34.860
So I'm going to read you an extract here.

530
00:40:35.460 --> 00:40:38.460
Zarov ran at the priest with the spear.

531
00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:43.320
The weapon pierced Ramo's rib cage, and he fell down with a terrible cry of agony.

532
00:40:43.380 --> 00:40:44.820
Polly screamed.

533
00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:51.119
Zarov turned round instinctively at the sound, and slapped her across the face, shutting her up.

534
00:40:51.179 --> 00:40:52.380
Hooray.

535
00:40:52.440 --> 00:40:55.139
Oh, that's true for casual sexism.

536
00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:57.059
The thing is violent.

537
00:40:57.179 --> 00:41:01.739
I think it's hard to tell whether that is in the original script or not, but I'd say it probably was.

538
00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:06.239
And you kind of go, okay, 1966, 1967.

539
00:41:06.420 --> 00:41:07.079
It's not so great.

540
00:41:07.139 --> 00:41:11.400
This novelisation was written in the late 80s by Nigel Robinson.

541
00:41:11.460 --> 00:41:18.179
Now, and even so, you can then kind of squint and go, okay, but it's the villain hitting a woman we're not meant to like that.

542
00:41:18.239 --> 00:41:20.880
Well, then we get this bit.

543
00:41:20.940 --> 00:41:25.800
It's no use, Jamie. will never make it, cried Polly, her eyes brimming with tears.

544
00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:27.960
We're never going to get out of here.

545
00:41:28.019 --> 00:41:31.139
Of course we are, Jamie reassured her firmly.

546
00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:33.119
One more minute and then we'll be out of this.

547
00:41:33.179 --> 00:41:33.599
You will see.

548
00:41:33.659 --> 00:41:36.059
Polly shook her head in despair.

549
00:41:36.119 --> 00:41:40.920
The dark oppressiveness of the tunnels through which they had been climbing was taking its toll on her.

550
00:41:40.980 --> 00:41:43.920
And another, and another, and another.

551
00:41:43.980 --> 00:41:45.000
Jamie, don't you see?

552
00:41:45.059 --> 00:41:46.199
We're buried in knives.

553
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:48.119
She broke down.

554
00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:51.659
Oh, but there's more.

555
00:41:51.719 --> 00:41:53.099
There's always more.

556
00:41:53.159 --> 00:41:56.039
She broke down into an uncontrollable fit of sobs.

557
00:41:56.099 --> 00:41:57.539
Out of desperation.

558
00:41:57.599 --> 00:42:00.900
Jamie slapped the hysterical female across the face.

559
00:42:00.960 --> 00:42:02.940
That shut her up.

560
00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:05.820
Now come on, Polly, he said gently.

561
00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:06.900
There's still a chance.

562
00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:08.340
Get up and follow me.

563
00:42:08.519 --> 00:42:18.719
So not only has one of our heroes responded to quite a genuine concern of Polly's by slap air across the face, he's clearly slapped her so hard, she's fallen to the floor.

564
00:42:18.780 --> 00:42:20.760
Oh, good God.

565
00:42:20.760 --> 00:42:26.940
I mean, she's terrible in this story, but it clearly even worse in that novelisation.

566
00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:30.179
She's a blubbering idiot and she was really cool before.

567
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:32.639
She was sort of fat and cool and smart.

568
00:42:32.699 --> 00:42:34.619
She out with Christy.

569
00:42:34.679 --> 00:42:37.079
You know, she outwits algae.

570
00:42:37.139 --> 00:42:39.179
She outwits, Tom, you know, she's smart.

571
00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:42.000
She's the moral conscience in the 10th planet.

572
00:42:42.059 --> 00:42:43.199
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

573
00:42:43.260 --> 00:42:46.380
She ends up to the sidemen and has that argument.

574
00:42:46.440 --> 00:42:50.699
She understands regeneration way before Ben does, you know.

575
00:42:50.760 --> 00:43:04.920
And yeah, she's just reduced in this story to someone overly emotional and far more weakly emotional than she was in previous stories, but not only that, punished for being emotional.

576
00:43:04.980 --> 00:43:10.079
Well, I mean, it is that it's that B movie 50s thing.

577
00:43:10.199 --> 00:43:16.980
What was that, um, the Flash Gordon super soldiers thing where someone's being forcibly married to being the merciless?

578
00:43:16.980 --> 00:43:27.840
and she just, she's, I thought, I thought dad was like drugged or unconscious or something, but she's just so passive that she literally does nothing at all.

579
00:43:27.900 --> 00:43:30.000
She's not been hypnotised or anything.

580
00:43:30.059 --> 00:43:32.579
She just sits there while the men fight over her.

581
00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:36.840
In the Mike Hodges, 1979 Flash Gordon version, she is drugged.

582
00:43:36.900 --> 00:43:40.500
She's given an elixir to make it all a hell of a lot more pleasant than it's going to be otherwise.

583
00:43:40.559 --> 00:43:44.099
Kind of like you need to be to watch the construction of this story.

584
00:43:44.340 --> 00:43:47.280
But it does work under those conditions I think.

585
00:43:47.340 --> 00:43:51.179
So I suppose the end result of that is...

586
00:43:51.179 --> 00:43:54.480
Underwater mass was made about 20 years too late.

587
00:43:54.539 --> 00:43:58.679
Yes, it was, or maybe too early or just without the...

588
00:43:58.739 --> 00:44:00.059
It's interesting to see, isn't it?

589
00:44:00.119 --> 00:44:23.519
We look at such heroic failures, if you like, as being those points of Nadirism in these seasons, but actually they're the ones we spend the most time discussing, and the ones that end up maybe being the most interesting for why they go wrong, because you can see how it could be fantastic with just a few little tweaks, and there's something intriguing about when things don't quite work.

590
00:44:23.579 --> 00:44:25.679
Maybe that's why we've Doctor Who fans.

591
00:44:43.739 --> 00:44:45.719
How the hell do you want it?

592
00:44:48.599 --> 00:44:52.440
Okay, so, so, was that Yetis or Cyber people?

593
00:44:52.500 --> 00:44:54.179
In a horrible day now?

594
00:44:54.179 --> 00:45:03.239
So, in fact, it's very hard to tell who these robot things are because we've never seen them in Doctor Who before.

595
00:45:03.300 --> 00:45:07.860
They don't look anything like the mondass people who...

596
00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:09.360
They're not the same at all, are they?

597
00:45:09.420 --> 00:45:09.960
No.

598
00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:17.519
And this means we also start to get David Banks wonderful fan reccoming of the Spider-Man with this story.

599
00:45:17.579 --> 00:45:19.380
No, tough look.

600
00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:21.960
I think it's brilliant, but do go on. don't know that one.

601
00:45:22.019 --> 00:45:22.679
What is that one?

602
00:45:22.739 --> 00:45:25.739
He wrote a giant book like in the 90s, right?

603
00:45:25.800 --> 00:45:44.760
Explaining how, you know, the reason that the sidemen look different all the time is like there's various boring casts of cyberman that redesign themselves and decide to start wearing sort of... flares and boots and...

604
00:45:44.760 --> 00:45:47.699
Ping-pong balls on their shoulders and vacuum cleaner tubes.

605
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:49.500
Yes, David Banks.

606
00:45:49.559 --> 00:45:50.400
I now get who you mean.

607
00:45:50.460 --> 00:45:56.460
I love it when the mass OCD fanboys get hold of something and really put a construction on it.

608
00:45:56.519 --> 00:45:57.900
Oh, he was the cyber leader.

609
00:45:57.900 --> 00:45:58.320
He was.

610
00:45:58.380 --> 00:45:59.340
Hands on hips.

611
00:45:59.400 --> 00:46:01.139
He was the Christopher Robbie of our general.

612
00:46:01.199 --> 00:46:02.940
Exactly what he was.

613
00:46:03.000 --> 00:46:04.320
Oh, dear.

614
00:46:04.380 --> 00:46:05.219
So tell me about that.

615
00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:07.139
Why do these sidemen look different?

616
00:46:07.199 --> 00:46:12.719
These sidemen look different because when Mondas was on its journey to the age of space.

617
00:46:12.780 --> 00:46:32.760
They sent out some cyberships to try and colonise our planets and this particular ship. landed and colonised on Telos, but then the expedition left again, and that's why the Cybermenon Telos look like the Cybermen who attacked the Moonbase, despite the fact the stories were about 500 years apart.

618
00:46:32.820 --> 00:46:40.980
So the cybermen we saw in 10th Planet are civilian cybermen's scientists saw perhaps actually politicians.

619
00:46:41.039 --> 00:46:42.480
They were.

620
00:46:42.539 --> 00:46:43.320
They were civilians.

621
00:46:43.380 --> 00:46:45.360
And they said they want everyone to know their name.

622
00:46:45.420 --> 00:46:47.039
And they had names.

623
00:46:47.219 --> 00:46:48.059
Whereas thank you.

624
00:46:48.119 --> 00:46:56.039
And there is these ones, and military or space fearing cybermen, so they have pressure resistant impact resistant armour, et cetera.

625
00:46:56.159 --> 00:46:59.460
But, I mean, the real reason Sandboy squee right there, isn't it?

626
00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:00.659
really hate all that stuff.

627
00:47:01.260 --> 00:47:04.260
I mean, the real reason is...

628
00:47:04.260 --> 00:47:08.880
This is the 2nd time that we've ever had a returning villain.

629
00:47:08.940 --> 00:47:11.400
So the Daleks have been back all times.

630
00:47:11.460 --> 00:47:13.920
This is the 1st time anyone else has ever come back.

631
00:47:13.980 --> 00:47:18.659
And so it's the side med, but they're completely unrecognisable and they're clearly been retooled.

632
00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:25.500
I don't know whether we know whether the production team knows at this stage that they might lose the rights to the Daleks.

633
00:47:25.559 --> 00:47:28.199
And so maybe they're getting someone else.

634
00:47:28.320 --> 00:47:34.500
Oh, no, they definitely knew that was part of the reason that they decided to bring back the sidemen so quickly too.

635
00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:35.400
Yeah, yeah.

636
00:47:35.460 --> 00:47:37.920
So they're going to be the new recurring villains and they will be.

637
00:47:37.980 --> 00:47:49.019
In fact, we next episode will be doing evil of the Daleks, which is kind of portrays the final end of the Daleks, only not really unless you're John Peel.

638
00:47:49.079 --> 00:47:52.980
And so we, you know, these are the other villains.

639
00:47:53.039 --> 00:47:58.440
And, you know, the new recurring villains and we'll see them again and again in the trout era.

640
00:47:58.500 --> 00:48:01.500
And they're always a bit crummy, aren't they?

641
00:48:01.619 --> 00:48:04.440
Like they're like, they're quite good.

642
00:48:04.500 --> 00:48:09.239
They're quite good in 10th planet and I think it's because they're sort of strange and shocking.

643
00:48:09.300 --> 00:48:11.280
They're extraordinary intense plan.

644
00:48:11.340 --> 00:48:20.760
They're really mesmerising and their motivations are not that far off a world under climate change and geological catastrophe.

645
00:48:20.820 --> 00:48:22.019
How different would BB?

646
00:48:22.079 --> 00:48:24.599
Yeah, no, they're from a parallel world.

647
00:48:24.659 --> 00:48:26.760
They from an alternative, if you know, they're us.

648
00:48:26.820 --> 00:48:30.719
But these are just sort of like a big troop of dumb robots, really, aren't they?

649
00:48:30.780 --> 00:48:34.800
And there is a little hint at the stuff from the 10th planet.

650
00:48:34.920 --> 00:48:38.639
It is very definitely the same. you know we do have references to it.

651
00:48:38.699 --> 00:48:42.659
And there is even references to sort of converting people, I think, towards the end.

652
00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:45.420
But they're kind of, they could be anyone, really.

653
00:48:45.480 --> 00:48:47.340
And that's really the role that they're going to play.

654
00:48:47.400 --> 00:48:49.260
Could be the commies, couldn't they?

655
00:48:49.320 --> 00:48:50.519
All that conversion stuff.

656
00:48:50.579 --> 00:48:58.079
It's pretty much what we said before, the straight reds under the beds, except this lot on top of the beds under a sheet.

657
00:48:58.260 --> 00:49:06.659
How thicky are always, again, very bond-like space tech people up on space.

658
00:49:06.719 --> 00:49:18.840
You know that I've read that the reasoning this Lloyd didn't have so much racial variation was that he was not wanting to offend the Southern states trying to sell this story to the US.

659
00:49:19.679 --> 00:49:24.599
So a lot of white people on the moon base, even though they have like comedy accents.

660
00:49:24.659 --> 00:49:25.199
Absolutely.

661
00:49:25.260 --> 00:49:30.300
So we're not getting a proper C-based 2020 animated kind of groovy base.

662
00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:34.559
In the 70s, you started getting Star Trek was still not in Britain.

663
00:49:34.619 --> 00:49:42.239
So what we're seeing here with an international crew is still very much Dan Dare, Charles Crichton's directed, you know, what the empire would be like.

664
00:49:42.300 --> 00:49:44.699
It really is Commonwealth Games on the Moon, isn't it?

665
00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:46.019
Plus Andre Moran.

666
00:49:46.079 --> 00:49:50.280
Plus Andre Moran in an exotic neckerchief because, you know, he's French.

667
00:49:50.340 --> 00:49:52.019
I actually really like his character in this.

668
00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:57.599
I like all of them, except maybe the fobby old silly old duffer commander, but I love them.

669
00:49:57.659 --> 00:49:58.980
Oh, I really like it.

670
00:49:58.980 --> 00:50:08.219
I like it. because And a scientist who had risen to the rank to command this kind of thing wouldn't be a dashing young man.

671
00:50:08.280 --> 00:50:14.579
He would be a man in his middle age who has devoted his life to science and thus he's been put in charge.

672
00:50:14.639 --> 00:50:25.440
Well, I mean, compare it to the last time we did this story, where you've got General Cutler, who's so crazy that he's in fact the chief of Dylan and antagonist in episode 3 of the 10th planet.

673
00:50:25.500 --> 00:50:34.500
He've got Hobson, and Hobson's just kind of doing his job and, you know, like he's sort of really normal and like he, and I really like him.

674
00:50:34.619 --> 00:50:35.760
He's terrific.

675
00:50:35.820 --> 00:50:37.380
He does suffer, doesn't he?

676
00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:38.400
Yeah, no.

677
00:50:38.400 --> 00:50:39.480
Get out of here.

678
00:50:39.539 --> 00:50:40.679
I can cure your disease.

679
00:50:40.739 --> 00:50:41.820
Oh, all right.

680
00:50:41.880 --> 00:50:44.340
Just don't make too much noise, you crazy kids.

681
00:50:44.460 --> 00:50:45.780
He's wonderful.

682
00:50:45.840 --> 00:50:48.659
I think he's he's um he's really terrific.

683
00:50:48.719 --> 00:50:50.820
And I really like Bob.

684
00:50:51.420 --> 00:50:58.860
Bob, you know, fat, poor fat Bob, who gets killed at the, you know, in episode at the start of episode three.

685
00:50:58.920 --> 00:51:00.900
I just think he's he's trivic.

686
00:51:00.960 --> 00:51:02.159
So like they're good.

687
00:51:02.219 --> 00:51:06.840
It's a shame there's no one ever thinks to employ a woman in these places.

688
00:51:06.900 --> 00:51:07.500
That's crazy.

689
00:51:07.559 --> 00:51:18.719
We do get that in the Ice Warriors, but although Polly's character does start getting a bit restrengthened, seeing if she's the one who figures out how to deal with the cyber invasion in the base, which is pretty fabulous.

690
00:51:18.719 --> 00:51:25.679
Because quite often with Doctor Who companions, they're sort of given whatever skills are needed in the story.

691
00:51:25.739 --> 00:51:31.139
And we sort that a bit with Ian, but that can be rationalised away with things like national service and da da da.

692
00:51:31.260 --> 00:51:36.000
But with Polly, the things she knows to deal with sidemen, I the chemical solvents.

693
00:51:36.059 --> 00:51:40.739
Are things like a 60s dolly bird would know because she's an expert on nail polish.

694
00:51:40.800 --> 00:51:42.239
She's an expert on nail polish.

695
00:51:42.300 --> 00:51:52.739
But also, you know, she would have to know, working with those chemicals, like nail polish and presumably hair products, it would because she's a girl.

696
00:51:52.800 --> 00:51:55.980
Well, because she has a fabulous beehive, everything.

697
00:51:56.039 --> 00:52:04.320
But, you know, working with those products, Polly's a pretty smart person, she would want to know what chemicals she was using on her body and what their effects were.

698
00:52:04.380 --> 00:52:13.679
So, you know, if she knows that acetate dissolves plastic and she knows that the side men are made out of plastic, you know, it's a rational character development for her.

699
00:52:13.679 --> 00:52:17.400
And what's really great is Ben just stands there going, what?

700
00:52:17.460 --> 00:52:19.320
That doesn't make sense.

701
00:52:19.380 --> 00:52:22.019
Yes, Ben is poorly served in this one, isn't he?

702
00:52:22.079 --> 00:52:29.219
Yeah, even though Jamie's unconscious, so they didn't, you know, like we didn't really know Jamie was going to be in it, I think, at this stage.

703
00:52:29.219 --> 00:52:32.219
Yeah, we didn't, we get he gets...

704
00:52:32.280 --> 00:52:34.199
He gets knocked out at the beginning of episode one.

705
00:52:34.260 --> 00:52:41.760
In fact, we haven't talked about the moon and it's kind of funny because as we record, last week's series 8, Doctor Who episode was set on the moon.

706
00:52:41.820 --> 00:52:43.500
And right?

707
00:52:43.559 --> 00:52:50.519
The very 1st thing that I noticed them saying about the moon was the doctor noticing that the gravity was normal in Kill the Moon.

708
00:52:50.579 --> 00:52:53.639
And so, you know, we wouldn't have to do any special gravity effects.

709
00:52:53.699 --> 00:52:55.980
And it turned out there was a sensible plot reason for that.

710
00:52:56.039 --> 00:52:57.719
Well, not a sensible.

711
00:52:58.500 --> 00:53:01.980
I'm a podcast for the listeners at home.

712
00:53:02.039 --> 00:53:04.320
To raise my collective eyebrow there, yeah.

713
00:53:04.679 --> 00:53:13.980
But here they get to do like 10 minutes of just fapping about on the moon surface, leaping up and down wearing fabulous.

714
00:53:14.039 --> 00:53:18.480
I mean, does the doctor pull out his does he have the...

715
00:53:18.539 --> 00:53:31.320
He's got a big chest, which is dimensionally transcendental and has like whole astronaut outfits and so they put astronaut outfits on and they bounce around on the set and stuff and they do it for about 10 minutes and they're having great time.

716
00:53:31.380 --> 00:53:34.139
What I love about their astronoid outfits too.

717
00:53:34.199 --> 00:53:37.079
And this is before Adam West Batman was on.

718
00:53:37.139 --> 00:53:40.320
But they've all got these sort of robin eye masks for some reason.

719
00:53:40.380 --> 00:53:46.320
Is it like to protect themselves against the glare of the script?

720
00:53:46.500 --> 00:53:49.860
I think it's the mask, the stuntman person.

721
00:53:49.920 --> 00:53:51.360
Yeah, you could be right.

722
00:53:52.380 --> 00:53:54.780
It is a base under siege.

723
00:53:54.840 --> 00:54:08.880
This is, I think, and, you know, there is that much quoted speech from Trout in here where he says, yeah, you know, there are things in the Farcons of the universe have bred the most terrible things and they must be Ford.

724
00:54:08.940 --> 00:54:11.460
And, you know, that's much quoted.

725
00:54:11.519 --> 00:54:21.059
But what I actually think this is, is this is kind of like the 1st modern Doctor Who story.

726
00:54:21.119 --> 00:54:32.940
You've got a group of people, under threat from an alien outsiders, and the doctor comes in, is initially suspected by that group of people, but eventually saves them from the aliens.

727
00:54:33.000 --> 00:54:36.480
And it's something that we're just going to see over and over again.

728
00:54:36.539 --> 00:54:41.880
And people complain that the late trout and stuff is, you know, essentially that story over and over again.

729
00:54:41.940 --> 00:54:45.900
But I mean, waters of Mars is that story, image of the Fendal, is that story.

730
00:54:45.960 --> 00:54:46.679
I mean, that story.

731
00:54:46.739 --> 00:54:47.940
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

732
00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:52.860
You know, that story is an absolute staple of Doctor Who.

733
00:54:52.980 --> 00:54:57.059
And surprisingly, we haven't had it really that much until now.

734
00:54:57.119 --> 00:55:07.679
Maybe the closest that we've had it is the censorites where the people are actually the aliens and they're under threat from mysterious people, you know.

735
00:55:07.739 --> 00:55:12.300
But we've, you know, this is the 1st time we do it in that modern way and there's some talk.

736
00:55:12.360 --> 00:55:27.539
You know, maybe that's a sort of depressingly xenophobic view of the world, whereas before we used to go out and see weird things, and we'd always end up getting sort of captured or menaced or thrown into a prison or narrowly escaping a dull historical massacre.

737
00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:33.960
But, um, But, uh, we were exploring the world and seeing new things.

738
00:55:34.019 --> 00:55:43.019
Now we're kind of frightened of the world and we, the big threat that it presents is that it will get in and we need the doctor to prevent that from happening.

739
00:55:43.079 --> 00:55:47.699
And so I think that there's a sense in which this is kind of a step up.

740
00:55:47.760 --> 00:55:52.380
This is what the status quo was going to be on the trout.

741
00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:58.440
It is, in a sense, what the status quo is going to be, you know, from in Doctor Who from now on.

742
00:55:58.500 --> 00:56:10.260
But it does foreclose some sort of fun possibilities, and some really strange, enjoyable things that we've had up till now, and that's a bit of a shame.

743
00:56:10.320 --> 00:56:18.840
So this story seems this story seems very competent and very modern, but it does lose some of the charm that we've had over the last 3 years, I think.

744
00:56:18.960 --> 00:56:28.019
Do you feel it's just trying to do too many things at once or select too many other story types and types to be one thing?

745
00:56:28.139 --> 00:56:34.079
I just think it's the 1st story that will eventually just settle into this groove that gets done.

746
00:56:34.260 --> 00:56:35.099
Very quickly, too.

747
00:56:35.159 --> 00:56:35.760
Yeah.

748
00:56:35.820 --> 00:56:40.320
My only problem with this one because it is kind of the 1st real Doctor Who story as we now know.

749
00:56:40.380 --> 00:56:47.639
If you could refilm it for Capaldi and it's, okay, you could refilm it for Matt Smith and it would almost be Capelli's old different universe now.

750
00:56:47.699 --> 00:56:50.159
But it's almost a Matt Smith story.

751
00:56:50.219 --> 00:56:51.000
Waters of Mars.

752
00:56:51.119 --> 00:56:52.019
Yeah, thank you.

753
00:56:52.079 --> 00:56:55.320
Actually, yes, what is the Mars really ringing in my head looking at this again?

754
00:56:55.380 --> 00:57:03.239
But so too, was the Cybernaus, the Avengers that just, we'd just seen Michael Goff doing the year before.

755
00:57:03.480 --> 00:57:06.059
He did so I still try and make it.

756
00:57:06.119 --> 00:57:07.019
He's much better in that one.

757
00:57:07.079 --> 00:57:13.860
But these really are cyber naughts of the Avengers, the M appeal fame, even the way they karate chop through things.

758
00:57:13.920 --> 00:57:21.780
We never, unfortunately, get to hear because they're mute, the cybonauts accuse human beings of having to stop...

759
00:57:21.780 --> 00:57:25.380
Which is just...

760
00:57:25.380 --> 00:57:29.099
I wish we could use them in everyday parts and work meetings, really.

761
00:57:30.960 --> 00:57:38.219
See, I really like this one and I think it is actually a step up from the 10th planet.

762
00:57:38.280 --> 00:57:45.659
The sidemen may not be as complex in this anymore, but it's not just their appearance that streamlined.

763
00:57:45.719 --> 00:57:50.099
It's their characterisation is streamlined as well.

764
00:57:50.159 --> 00:57:53.639
They are the menace who want to make us like them.

765
00:57:53.760 --> 00:58:00.239
And take what we have for themselves, but there is still no malice in what they're doing.

766
00:58:00.300 --> 00:58:07.019
And I think that's the important thing you have to have for a decent side of men's story. the absence of malice.

767
00:58:07.079 --> 00:58:08.639
What we're trying to do is logical.

768
00:58:08.699 --> 00:58:15.900
And on the surface, you know, it might seem that what the cybermen are trying to do here isn't logical, you know.

769
00:58:15.960 --> 00:58:20.159
In the 10th planet, they went for a full frontal assault, and that didn't work.

770
00:58:20.639 --> 00:58:26.159
So these sidemen, what they do is they attempt to invade by stealth.

771
00:58:26.219 --> 00:58:28.320
You can't do that fully frontally, can you?

772
00:58:28.380 --> 00:58:30.539
No, no, indeed not.

773
00:58:30.599 --> 00:58:34.019
Now, when that doesn't work, they do come in.

774
00:58:34.079 --> 00:58:36.599
They're repelled, so they attack from a distance.

775
00:58:36.659 --> 00:58:42.719
Each of the cyberman's actions in this is informed by something that's happened to them previously.

776
00:58:42.840 --> 00:58:47.159
They adapt to what they've learned, whereas in the 10th planet.

777
00:58:47.219 --> 00:58:48.780
They attempt to go in once.

778
00:58:48.900 --> 00:58:50.219
They get defeated.

779
00:58:50.280 --> 00:58:54.360
They go, oh, okay, we'll just lay around the corner and wait for everyone to die.

780
00:58:54.480 --> 00:58:57.420
You know, the side men in this are a little bit more proactive.

781
00:58:57.480 --> 00:59:18.480
Behind the scenes, of course, they've had the redesign, uh, which was handled by, um, Sandra Reid, who has said in interviews that, um, part of the reason for the redesign was, she felt so badly about 1st design, because the 1st design for the 10th planet, she was asked to do at the last minute, and didn't think much of science fiction.

782
00:59:18.539 --> 00:59:22.500
So just designed something she thought was kind of terrible.

783
00:59:22.559 --> 00:59:23.820
Really?

784
00:59:23.880 --> 00:59:26.039
Yeah, she really doesn't like that.

785
00:59:26.099 --> 00:59:26.699
That's the thing.

786
00:59:26.760 --> 00:59:30.119
They, you know, people thought they were really menacing.

787
00:59:30.179 --> 00:59:43.619
But she felt so bad that people really liked something she had done sort of off the cuff that she went, no, I'm gonna do it, quote unquote, properly this time, and I'm going to make them sleek and metallic.

788
00:59:43.619 --> 00:59:46.860
With polyphene tennis balls, yes. polyphene.

789
00:59:46.920 --> 00:59:49.559
This is, I mean, it's essentially the what we have now.

790
00:59:49.619 --> 00:59:50.519
Do you know what I mean?

791
00:59:50.579 --> 00:59:57.000
Like, Simon get undergo a couple of redesigns in the 60s until they have those big bun head things that they have.

792
00:59:57.059 --> 01:00:00.780
We beat George Lucas and Carrie Fisher again, didn't we?

793
01:00:00.840 --> 01:00:04.920
You know, they had the invasion and all throughout the 70s and 80s.

794
01:00:04.980 --> 01:00:14.340
But what we've gone back to now is essentially these moon-based sidemen or their close cousins, the wheeling space ones, with the smaller heads and all that sort of thing.

795
01:00:14.460 --> 01:00:17.639
And I think they look pretty good and I actually like the voices I like.

796
01:00:17.699 --> 01:00:19.139
They're incomprehensible.

797
01:00:19.199 --> 01:00:31.619
They're not quite as bad as they will be in tune with the sidemen where you can't understand a line of their dialogue, but, you know, I think that they, you know, they look reasonably cool, but they are very generic and they are they're slightly dull.

798
01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:40.980
I mean, the fact that they're not us anymore, they are just robots, you know, and they're not threatening to assimilate us or take a sofa or depersonalise us.

799
01:00:41.039 --> 01:00:46.320
They just want to, you know, hit us over the head and take on our staff, essentially, here.

800
01:00:46.380 --> 01:00:48.539
So it's a slightly less interesting thing.

801
01:00:48.599 --> 01:00:56.219
And in fact, I think that the fact that the gravitron is a weather base and that what they want to do is kind of destroy Earth.

802
01:00:56.280 --> 01:00:59.699
It just is just a way of upping the stakes here.

803
01:00:59.760 --> 01:01:00.480
Do you know what I mean?

804
01:01:00.539 --> 01:01:07.260
Like, you know, like cybermen invading a moon base with half a dozen white people on it.

805
01:01:07.320 --> 01:01:12.300
That's not very, you know, that's not particularly threatening.

806
01:01:12.360 --> 01:01:19.800
But, you know, Simon threatening to destroy the world by taking control of its weather, obviously, up to the stakes.

807
01:01:19.860 --> 01:01:21.059
Very prescient.

808
01:01:21.119 --> 01:01:29.340
And it does it does give us a chance for some really, really incredible foam rubber shower caps in the graviton room, which I'm wearing one now.

809
01:01:29.400 --> 01:01:32.219
Do you know, we weren't going to say...

810
01:01:32.219 --> 01:01:32.820
I was wondering.

811
01:01:32.880 --> 01:01:35.340
You know, this was almost Patrick Troughton's last story.

812
01:01:35.400 --> 01:01:38.460
You just mentioned the big ballsy prop in so many ways.

813
01:01:38.519 --> 01:01:39.659
Why?

814
01:01:39.659 --> 01:01:41.099
He knocked the motherhead thing.

815
01:01:41.159 --> 01:01:50.099
The gravitron itself, you know how Paddy was a very physical actor compared to build micro physicality, and you Bill's things, you always saw his hands.

816
01:01:50.159 --> 01:01:52.019
Something that came from 20 cinema.

817
01:01:52.079 --> 01:01:55.860
We haven't mentioned that this podcast, so I think it's important to throw that in again.

818
01:01:55.920 --> 01:01:57.239
I haven't had a drink at home.

819
01:01:57.300 --> 01:02:00.059
So you'd always see Bill's hands in his close-up shots.

820
01:02:00.119 --> 01:02:07.139
Paddy liked to walk around the set before the 1st day of shooting, just work out his moves and the size of the props.

821
01:02:07.199 --> 01:02:15.420
The gravitron hadn't been properly secured and fell down within apparently 2 feet of where he'd just been standing and would have cut him coming through.

822
01:02:15.480 --> 01:02:16.199
Yeah.

823
01:02:16.380 --> 01:02:22.139
So then, ooh, can you just see him jumping up and down like running away when I say run?

824
01:02:22.199 --> 01:02:23.639
Yeah, yeah, he wasn't happy about it.

825
01:02:23.699 --> 01:02:27.360
So maybe that means an edge to the 1st episode.

826
01:02:27.420 --> 01:02:28.559
Shoot when you watch it again.

827
01:02:28.619 --> 01:02:30.539
But he's so consummately good.

828
01:02:30.599 --> 01:02:32.460
I think that's the thing about this season.

829
01:02:32.519 --> 01:02:35.280
Plot for plot, plot for plot.

830
01:02:35.340 --> 01:02:47.159
It's kind of like the colour series of of Diana Riggs Avengers in that isolated their fun, but try and watch them in a sequence and you just fall into a coma because it's the same plot every single week.

831
01:02:47.219 --> 01:02:48.300
This one.

832
01:02:49.079 --> 01:02:54.360
Almost the same, I think much, much less so and actually more creatively.

833
01:02:54.420 --> 01:02:57.480
But Patrick Troughton is just amazing and everything he does.

834
01:02:57.539 --> 01:03:02.880
And I'm really unwilling to say that because I'm still having, I'm still having Billy Gas.

835
01:03:02.940 --> 01:03:12.900
I'm still really missing Billy, but he just, you can't not be astounded and kind of confronted and because he's certainly not a black and white doctor.

836
01:03:12.960 --> 01:03:25.860
He certainly, he's morality is impused several times throughout the course of this adventure, because we saw it, um, in this one, not so much, but he's willing to sacrifice for the greater good, depends on who, depending on who that is.

837
01:03:25.920 --> 01:03:27.960
We're going to see more of that as the season goes on.

838
01:03:28.019 --> 01:03:36.780
But, you know, for instance, in Underwater Menace, he floods the lower levels for no good reason, just to give him a bit more time and to distract Professor Zaroff.

839
01:03:36.840 --> 01:03:37.860
There were other ways he could have done it.

840
01:03:37.920 --> 01:03:41.699
And we talked in power of the Daleks about the Bragan's guards.

841
01:03:41.760 --> 01:03:45.780
Yes, sacrificing that he sacrifices then.

842
01:03:45.840 --> 01:03:48.840
And like you said, we'll see an evil of the Daleks and a bit more of that.

843
01:03:48.900 --> 01:03:56.940
It was listening to this one that I realised where so much of later doctors have come from, most significantly and visually as well.

844
01:03:57.000 --> 01:04:00.780
You can really see Sylvester's doctor being very much based on Patrick.

845
01:04:00.840 --> 01:04:06.360
But when you get the look of it, but also the greater good and the manipulation.

846
01:04:06.420 --> 01:04:09.780
He's very subtly so, and I didn't get it the 1st time I listened to these.

847
01:04:09.840 --> 01:04:14.940
Did you notice the big referencing robot of Sherwood a couple of weeks ago?

848
01:04:15.000 --> 01:04:24.599
There's a fantastic saving mood base where Hobson's given the doctor permission to investigate, you know, what pathogenal, what it is in common?

849
01:04:24.659 --> 01:04:25.860
And he's cutting people's hair.

850
01:04:25.920 --> 01:04:29.099
Yeah, yeah, he's crawling around on the front, stuff their clothes and stuff.

851
01:04:29.219 --> 01:04:32.639
And Capaldi's doing the same thing to all of the people.

852
01:04:32.699 --> 01:04:35.039
I'll introduce you to people who are fish.

853
01:04:36.119 --> 01:04:40.139
But he does the same thing to Robin Hood in his very man.

854
01:04:40.199 --> 01:04:42.780
He's rolling around, taking blood samples and stuff.

855
01:04:42.840 --> 01:04:43.980
Terrific.

856
01:04:44.400 --> 01:04:52.139
Yeah, Patrick and Chartin is the go to doctor and this, for seeing how to, what to do with the doctor and how to play it, Matt did it.

857
01:04:52.199 --> 01:05:08.880
I'm really getting that this season is just like, again, other things like the Bond films of that time are still addressing how to do a Bond film, the, again, with the reboots, the Avengers is how to do a rom-com with a male and female leads, still kind of done that way.

858
01:05:08.880 --> 01:05:10.920
This is the doctor.

859
01:05:10.980 --> 01:05:11.940
This is how to do Doctor Who.

860
01:05:12.059 --> 01:05:13.860
Yeah, this is the reboot, isn't it?

861
01:05:13.920 --> 01:05:15.539
It's series one of the reboot really.

862
01:05:15.599 --> 01:05:42.420
And I think by introducing that sort of gray morality of the Trout and Doctor, the series, the series grows up very quickly because Hartnell's doctor, you know, he could be irascible, but you would never think that, you know, that he'd flood the lower levels without checking there are people there or that he'd send some guards in to die just to buy himself as a mate to time.

863
01:05:42.480 --> 01:05:45.960
Or as you mentioned, Nathan, that he'd smash a lawyer's head against the desk.

864
01:05:46.619 --> 01:05:48.840
Pretty much just for fun.

865
01:05:48.960 --> 01:05:49.980
Just for fun, yeah?

866
01:05:50.039 --> 01:05:50.340
You know?

867
01:05:51.480 --> 01:06:11.159
And yeah, it feels like such a more adult and bigger series, even with the problems that arguably all 3 of these stories have, it begins to feel a bit more unpredictable again, in a good way, whereas series, sorry, season 3 was unpredictable in probably a bad way.

868
01:06:11.219 --> 01:06:15.420
That was unpredictable in a way of, oh, God, what's coming next?

869
01:06:15.480 --> 01:06:17.940
Whereas this is unpredictable in a way of, what's coming next?

870
01:06:18.000 --> 01:06:19.920
Don't you think it's just growing pains?

871
01:06:19.980 --> 01:06:26.400
Like, it is, they are kind of, like, this is the story where they settle down into the mode that they're going to follow.

872
01:06:26.460 --> 01:06:28.679
You know, they create the template.

873
01:06:28.739 --> 01:06:32.760
And before then they were just kind of trying to work out what on earth they were going to do.

874
01:06:32.820 --> 01:06:42.000
And so, you know, Power of Daleks, I think, works surprisingly well in context, given how the subsequent stories go.

875
01:06:42.059 --> 01:06:48.420
But, you know, the Highlanders is a bit of a mess and and, you know, like underwater menace.

876
01:06:48.480 --> 01:06:54.000
I think they wanted to get away from alien planets, so it's on Earth, but it's essentially, you know, crummy B movie tropes.

877
01:06:54.000 --> 01:06:59.820
And then there's this and this is what they'll decide on going forward.

878
01:06:59.880 --> 01:07:06.420
So, like, I don't, I'm not, I'm not convinced that the show's been revitalised yet.

879
01:07:06.420 --> 01:07:16.019
I have to say, I think, you know, recasting the doctor was amazing and it's amazing that that came off, but I think it really did.

880
01:07:16.079 --> 01:07:19.800
I think Ben and Polly are, you know, were great regular cast members.

881
01:07:19.860 --> 01:07:22.559
I think that you know, some really positive changes have happened.

882
01:07:22.619 --> 01:07:25.500
But I'm just not convinced at this direction.

883
01:07:25.559 --> 01:07:32.460
Um, you know, clearly in hindsight, we know that this is the direction of the doctor who eventually takes.

884
01:07:32.519 --> 01:07:36.480
But I don't know how great it is at this stage.

885
01:07:36.539 --> 01:07:39.420
I'll have to. finding a feat, aren't they?

886
01:07:39.480 --> 01:07:45.000
And they're making as many perhaps not so great choices as they're making positive choices.

887
01:07:45.059 --> 01:07:52.679
For me, if we can get to that right now, the biggest bar, what a shame so far is the casting.

888
01:07:52.679 --> 01:07:58.980
There's nothing against the actor himself because I really love his performance, but we have Jamie McCrim and instead of Kirsty.

889
01:07:59.039 --> 01:08:09.900
How amazing to have had Hannah Gordon, such a good actor as she later proved in her careers, as the girl, she could have been asleep on the bunk and it would have been absolutely terrifying for everyone concerned.

890
01:08:09.960 --> 01:08:11.400
I really like the character of Jamie.

891
01:08:11.460 --> 01:08:12.659
He the companion, isn't he?

892
01:08:13.019 --> 01:08:18.359
But it just would have been interesting to have seen maybe a bit more playing around with the formula.

893
01:08:18.420 --> 01:08:36.960
Well, in fact, we'll get to this next episode, probably, because what we're about to see is some, you know, we're going to say goodbye to the 2 contemporary companions who, you know, at the time, I think we said we were really excited to see them coming, they're going to go, and we're just going to have Jamie and someone else.

894
01:08:37.079 --> 01:08:38.340
They don't want to spoil it for you.

895
01:08:38.819 --> 01:08:44.279
And like again, I think that's that's...

896
01:08:44.279 --> 01:08:45.180
Queen Victoria.

897
01:08:45.239 --> 01:08:56.399
And also, next episode, I'm going to be, I'm talking about how actually, I think when it works, the combination of Jamie, Ben, and Polly is really good.

898
01:08:56.460 --> 01:08:58.140
Yeah, yeah.

899
01:09:07.199 --> 01:09:09.720
So that's all we have time for this episode.

900
01:09:09.899 --> 01:09:22.439
In our next episode, we are going to be discussing the last 3 stories of this season, the Macraterra, the faceless ones, and the final end of season 4 with Evil of the Daleks.

901
01:09:23.520 --> 01:09:27.239
But until then, I'm off to Praise Amdo.

902
01:09:27.300 --> 01:09:27.840
So good night.

903
01:09:28.079 --> 01:09:30.300
Squilch.

904
01:09:30.720 --> 01:09:34.800
I don't know what I'm off to. either of those two.

905
01:09:34.859 --> 01:09:37.140
I'm up to get gills fitted.

906
01:09:37.199 --> 01:09:38.220
Yeah, I should do.

907
01:09:38.220 --> 01:09:40.859
I've got very unhygienic operating room.

908
01:09:41.939 --> 01:09:47.699
Which will be cut out by the Australian sensors. right, Damian Shanahan will have an extra bit.

909
01:09:49.199 --> 01:09:51.720
That's why that's in the room.

910
01:09:51.779 --> 01:09:58.619
That's why. to mention in the highland is the fact that all of like all you would get is like someone suddenly being hanged.

911
01:09:58.619 --> 01:10:01.140
And then it's back to the pictures.

912
01:10:01.199 --> 01:10:03.180
From the tomb of Jamie and Shanahan.

913
01:10:03.239 --> 01:10:08.279
So I think we can finish this episode by saying all the bits of these episodes we do have.

914
01:10:08.340 --> 01:10:09.539
Thank you, Damian Shannon.

915
01:10:09.600 --> 01:10:10.979
Thank you, Damien, in your evil ways.

916
01:10:11.039 --> 01:10:11.279
Thank you.

917
01:10:17.399 --> 01:10:21.479
You've been listening to Flight Your Entirety with Nathan Botomey, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

918
01:10:21.600 --> 01:10:25.739
This episode, Comedy Accents, was recorded on Sunday, the 12th of October.

919
01:10:25.800 --> 01:10:28.800
The next episode will be released on Sunday, the 2nd of November.

920
01:10:28.859 --> 01:10:34.739
You can find us at flatthroughentiresh.com, flight to entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter.

921
01:10:34.800 --> 01:10:37.560
Now, I'm going to make some coffee while you all think of something.

922
01:10:41.340 --> 01:10:44.760
Zarov ran at the priest with the...

923
01:10:44.760 --> 01:10:47.640
Zarov ran at the pre.

924
01:10:47.699 --> 01:10:50.220
Oh, it's a yeah, it's a reversing truck.

925
01:10:50.279 --> 01:10:51.960
So it has to stop reversing eventually.

926
01:10:52.079 --> 01:10:53.819
You'd think?