Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety
the only Doctor Who podcast who promises you unlimited suet
pudding.
I'm Brendan.
I'm Nathan, and I'm a curious amoeboid with oddly grafted
features.
Just what you'd expect to find in 1963 shortage.
It's remembrance of the Daleks.
Can I just be Pamela?
I'd like to start this episode with a correction from a friend of
the podcast.
I do apologise.
I've looked through Twitter and I can't find the original tweet
but it turns out that Doctor Who last season did not go up against
Coronation Street.
It was went out on Mondays in the UK, but this year it is going up
against Coronation Street.
Really?
Yeah, it's against all Lawrence Miles and Tutwood received
wisdom.
Yes I know. perish that those 2 would move him. make an error.
Rock's the faction paradox to its foundation.
I think it's also a good time to mention Jody Bleeding Whittaker
gentlemen.
How exciting.
I'm terrible excited.
Is that her middle name?
I thought it was David.
Or Davo to her mate.
Um...
Yes, Borian Levine.
I don't think there's a lot to be said, but at the end of the
day.
J.D. Whittaker's been gone now and we're done. we've said
everything My friend Drew, I'm not sure if she listens to the
podcast, but she put up a wonderful imagined conversation between
the various doctors, the 1st doctor that just says, what are you
talking about, change?
Who are you people?
Well, I mean, that is exactly the point.
You know, people keep talking about the doctor being a shape
shifting alien, which I just think is kind of ridiculous.
It's just a person who gets recast every year.
The idea that there's no one's told him.
There's some sensible in universe reason for it.
It's just absurd.
They don't invent regeneration until, you know, well and truly
into the 1970s after it's kind of happened twice.
And, uh, it's just a way of getting rid of Bill Hartnell and
casting Pat Trout and there's nothing sort of really...
And then a woman, if you're, yes.
I was going to say Tom Baker, but no, if you're the lovely founder
of our lovely program, David Williams slash Sydney Newman.
Yes, that's right.
I wonder, that's an interesting combination, fiction effort, isn't
it?
I'm fiction for Sydney here.
The funny thing is I...
She can come back as a woman.
I think for this podcast, I would block you off that we need to
celebrate the introduction of Jody, Whitaker, by supposing what
would other characters be like?
I would like to recast the nemesis as Brian Blessed.
And both is lady painful. of my life, fire of my loin.
I want to say that.
Have you never wondered who he is?
I'm 57 and I shag everything.
You know, he said that too, my llama.
We've all been discussing it this week.
I'm 57.
I can't keep it.
The statues are alive.
Look, I'm...
The thing is, I'm in the...
I think wonderful situation of I've never seen Jodie Whittaker in
anything.
I saw her last night and hardly noticed her.
She's in Titanic slash Dunkirk.
Oh, right. whatever.
She's a Geordie, isn't she?
she's northern.
She does a northern accent in a film.
She is actually northern.
I've seen her interviewed on a breakfast Prague.
She's Gracie Fields.
We're going to be hearing.
Because that's but just threaten the world or the universe sung
out there.
Well, she does that accent in adult life skills, but I watched her
in Attack the Block last night and I thought, I thought that was
really fun.
That might be my pick of the week later.
And, um, you.
And she's just doing a sort of standard sort of London accent.
Nice accent.
Yeah.
I'm actually more concerned.
This is an honest to goodness.
I am more concerned.
I'm so bloody relieved at the casting.
You know, it's 8 years too late.
We've all, we've all thought it and said it.
It does feel like a drastic repitch for falling ratings, but it's
about bloody time.
But my real concern is what's she going to do with the accent?
I really am.
I'm really...
Russell said it.
I don't want to hear us rattling around the Midlands.
Yeah, well, we've had I mean, we've just had a Scottish accent.
I think probably they'll go traditional.
I hope so.
I'm looking to do Lumley. like a super posh accent.
Well, because, you know, it's Canon now.
Yeah, the 13th doctor's a woman again.
Yeah.
It was a raised eyebrow from radio.
But, um, I, as I say, I haven't seen her in anything, and I'm
actually kind of determined not to, because with Matt Smith, I'd
never...
Not going to watch you and Ian Levine, you're refusing to.
I'm going to see the program, but Matt Smith and Christopher
Eccleston.
I'd never seen in anything before I watched them in Doctor Who.
So I came I came to Doctor Who without expectations, whereas Peter
Capaldi, I was familiar with, for, you know, he did an early
Poirot.
He did guest spots in lots of things.
He did the thick of it. familiar with all that.
Brendan personally with vile Scottish himself.
I wish whenever I see him interviewed.
He just seemed so lovely.
I think I've told the story where I almost ran it, literally ran
into him in Coffin Garden when I was living there in lush.
I know.
I'm waiting for the euphemism.
I was right there.
You didn't even have to pause and draw breath.
I was bounding down if I was he was coming up and even though I
almost ran into him.
He stood off to one side. and he said, oh, I'm so sorry, please.
Please, would you care to share my bars?
Given that he was only Malcolm Tucker at the time?
I fully expected to be given some instructions on how to do
impossible things to my anatomy in a Scottish accent.
And he didn't If you have suggestions.
Anatomy, please do writing on a piece of soap.
But, you know, I thought to myself, oh, I should go off and watch
Broadchurch, and I should watch Attack the Block, and I should
watch all these things she's in, and then I thought, no, wait, and
have the 1st thing you see, Jodie, were to get in, be Doctor Who.
So it's it's a matter of, you know, if if Rod Sudley said to me, oh
I fancy watching Broadchurch, I'd watch it, but I'm not going to
go out of my way to watch anything Jodie Whittaker.
I want to come to it completely fresh.
So a long time to wait, though.
Bring back the doctor. don't hesitate Have you seen the people on
Twitter have started writing doctor in address?
Dr. in a dress?
He's a doctor, not a doctor.
Make an address.
Bring back his cock.
We won't take lessons.
Yeah, so should we have a little Delphic bay leaf chewing moment
oracle moment and say what we feel is going to happen with the
show?
Is that correct?
appropriate thing, do this and that?
I think my favourite daily match headline has been 1st Doctor Who
story with Jodie Whittaker will just be men telling her how time
travel works.
But no, I think a wonderful way to do it would be if We do say get
some returning characters maybe Kate and all is good, and if they
do react differently to the doctor who then uses that as a point
to make, no, you don't have to react differently because I'm a
woman.
I'm still the same person.
I am still the doctor.
I think Kate would say you've based yourself on me.
And well, not only that, but remember, Bill's last words that the
doctor heard were, you know how I'm into girls and people around
my own age?
I'm glad you know that.
I thought he said, I thought he heard stay.
I thought you said stay warm.
That ended on the cutting room floor, didn't it?
Dirty old mug.
Because that's the thing.
I think they are going to address the change in gender. somehow in
the dialogue and in the narrative. you've hit it right there.
It's actually built.
You say that, I just think, will your partner say that?
Yes, yes.
Not really.
I still hear that as William Hartner.
And he could he could carry it off too.
Yeah, no, that's why.
Just I don't mind that there's an excuse.
There's a reason that he picks up faces and that he picks up
accents in the same way. the only way to excuse David Tennant.
Well, I mean, I'm more interested in seeing what Chris Chibnall's
going to do because I kill it, obviously.
Yeah, I don't think it's that good a writer, but he's...
Is it wounds?
Cyberwoman person, but also the power of three.
Yeah, the power of 3 is pretty good.
Yeah, but how much of that was Moffat fingering?
With his finger of omega.
Moffat slash.
You know, it seemed a step above the stuff Moff was doing that
year, I have to say.
To say, I'm in like power of three.
Yeah.
It was homey again.
It had people that we liked.
Actually, that's what I want to see.
Whoever the companion is, and I think they are going to go from a
male primary companion.
They may also bring in a female companion.
John and Julian, yes.
Yeah, whoever the companion is, yeah. want them to have a family
again.
Really good legs.
Yeah, bring back a young Jamie type in a...
He could wear skimpy clothes and be hot and ask dumb questions.
What's happening, doctor?
That be awesome.
Let's bring back Jeff from the 11th hour.
Yes.
Yeah, why not?
The one with the one with the laptop.
She'll remember that too.
She'll dash right.
Didn't they tell you to get a girlfriend, Jeff?
Jump at my box.
Well, we're about 3 hours into our...
Remembrance of the Daleks.
First story with Ben Aronovich. as a writer.
Have you read his other stuff?
I really like his London plodder books. you read those?
No, like Rippers of London and things.
There'll be Rivers of London.
It's a great speech in Parliament by Sir Ian Benerangovic
Paisley.
No, they're really good.
It's kind of like, you know, slight psychic and woo-woo stuff, but
it's a, so it's a crossover and it's very 270s, 80s TV cop show
with, with Doctor Who mashed up in it.
Well, the novelisation was amazingly good.
I remember that.
It is, sorry, tear once.
It is the best target novelisation.
I think it is.
Well, it has, I think the new adventures owe a lot to it.
Yeah, it wouldn't have commented.
Absolutely.
And also, not that I think it's a direct influence by any means
but if you haven't read, say, the novelisation of Remembrance of
the Daleks, and I should mention, where about the 5th Australian
podcast doing a remembrance of the Daleks episode this month?
No.
Like new to who's done one.
I think Crinoid podcast has done one in the UK.
Just serendipity that all these people are doing those.
But I was going to say that...
But Game of Thrones, the Game of Thrones.
He's doing a podcast on Remembrance of the Daleks because the
books are told.
Each chapter is from the perspective of a different character.
So instead of having chapter one, chapter 2, chapter 3, you've got
Arya one and then a few other people and then Arya 2 and then a
few other people, Arya 3.
I have no idea what he's talking about.
It's the way Christopher Nolan makes films and the new Dunkirk one
is the same thing he's documented before and he talks about it as
time comparisons.
But yes, you reshoot the scene from a different perspective.
It's confusing for a viewer, but as the narrative goes on, you
feel even more drawn in.
Well, that's the idea.
You either do that or you're not off.
Well, that it really works in this novelisation of this story
because we are constantly shifting characters and we're getting
some insight into them, and it just shows how much thought
Beneronovich put into his characters, because as explored, getting
ahead of ourselves, later in the countermeasures spinoff, which
features characters from this, Rachel, Professor Rachel Jensen, is
Jewish, and that comes up in the novel and her feelings 20 years
after the war and what have you.
And also comes up with these spoiler alert racism of Mike Smith.
You know the original character boots in this, don't you?
Well, I can always just 1st off say this is so much better than
unit ever was.
Yeah.
And that's a little bit embarrassment-y to say that, but it really
really, really is.
But before we talk about antecedents, we should really talk about
the characters because Rachel was, of course, written as Dr. Rachel
Israel.
Yeah, yeah, it was really sort of pointed.
Yes, just in case you missed it the 1st time around.
And of course, Ratcliffe was Mr. Gummer.
Do you know who Gumma was?
I had to write it down myself.
Um, but he was, um, Industry secretary, John Selwyn Gummer, and he
loudly and formally resigned from the Church of England when they
ordained Dawn French.
It is amazingly, amazingly good, isn't it?
Like it's a massive, massive jumping quality.
I didn't think season 24 was bad.
But do you remember, Richard?
They actually showed remembrance of the Daleks with season 24.
So we 1st saw it tagged after Dragonfire.
And we didn't expect it.
And it was so good instantly, just so amazing.
And it manages to constantly reference things.
So it, it does unit only well, you know.
And, you know, like I loved unit, unit was, you know, the family
you know, back in the 1970s. it was sort of sweet and fun and it's
comfort food, but it was always a sort of uh sort of incompetent
television army.
Whereas this is it sort of reimagined as something else.
But this is absolutely packed full of references to previous
Doctor Who.
Without, you know, requiring you to have the Doctor Who Monster
book on hand.
Well, that's a bit of a relief, isn't it?
Because it's entirely about It's entirely about contemporary
Britain's take on the present and the past at the same time, just
like Christopher Nolan.
Yeah, like Ben Aronovich said, one of his purposes in setting the
story in 1963 is he didn't want to sugarcoat the past and he
wanted to point out that, okay, yeah, we defeated the Nazis and
one of ideas with the Daleks was Nazism.
We also discussed that communism was an influence way back in
episode one.
But Benoranovich's perspective was, that doesn't mean we defeated
racism, and that still existed in the 1960s, and he said to Andrew
Cartmel, I'm not going to sugarcoat it, and Cartmel said, yep
brilliant.
And we get these dynamics between the characters.
There's a deleted scene between Rachel, Allison and Mike, where
they're waiting for Ace to come out of the boarding house.
Rachel and Alison kind of tease Mike that he fancies Ace and Mike
says, oh, not yet.
Yeah, I know.
But not yet, but I want to know more about her and then say, what
do you mean?
And he says, well, I wouldn't want it to be foreign, would I?
That's cut out though, isn't it?
It's cut out.
And I think it's a good thing it's cut out because it makes his, it
makes his bigotry a bit more nuanced, but at the same time, that
is something someone would have said without, without shame in the
19th.
It is.
And also, and it's nice that Mike's racism is so received from his
mum.
We need to talk about who his mum is too, because she crops up
quite a bit.
She's Mrs. Bigmead.
Kathleen bit me.
No, she may not be our Mrs. B. But she, but bid me did use her.
So said, oh, God.
Aronovich wasn't the only one looking at the early 60s and
certainly around this Bay of Pigs, Kennedy's assassination time
just happened to be 25 years, but a lot of other contemporary
fiction TV shows.
Britain just generally politically socially was looking at this
stuff.
And as we've talked about Judge Dread, and we've talked about Alan
Moore, and we've talked about films of the time, scandal comes out
2 years later about the Profumo affair with Ian McKellen, as John
Profumo.
But not in a gray, a lovely long gray curtain.
We just have the outline around.
British culture was reanalyzing its post-war past, and finally, not
as the golden age that our parents professed it had been, you know
and there were people like Nathan and I who were born a little
while ago.
I think that Mike's final funeral is actually a funeral for the
blanket blinkered optimism of our parents' generation about this
time.
We're reappraising it in a truthful way, and you're seeing it all
across TV and film at the time.
The novel is clearer about that because it deals with the
characters, thoughts about the war.
Like, think about the title, right?
By this point, you have to have blank off the Daleks ever since.
But you have Genesis Destiny, and then it's our word of the Daleks
isn't it, after that?
Yeah, ritual reticule of the Daleks. relocation, rehash of the
Daleks, repetition of the Daleks.
Reticular vector gate.
But, um, Recidivism.
Remembrance is, because it ends with a funeral, it sort of makes
sense. on the in the televis show, it doesn't really make sense as
a title.
Apart from the fact that we're remembering the origins of Doctor
Who as a show.
But in the novel, what we're remembering is the war, like we're
remembering the Second World War.
It's telling, you know, TV of the period is so post-war, isn't
it?
You know, even when you watch Fulty Towers, you know, the war is
still there in people's minds and that's in the early 70s, you
know.
So it's an important thing in the lives of everyone.
And that having the villains literally be Nazis is, or, you know
fascists, British fascists, is fantastic.
And, and for the novel, I think Aronovic invents Manisha, doesn't
yeah, Ace's friend Manisha, who will become a bigger part of her
story next season and through to the new adventures.
Yeah, yeah.
So you've got, you know, like her Asian friend who's flat is fire
bombed by sort of white supremacist by skinheads in the 1980s and
uh, you know, that's why Ace takes that thing so, so seriously.
And I love the scene where she finds the no coloured sign because
it's the kind of thing that Doctor Who hasn't had, you know, Doctor
Who very rarely goes back to the recent past, it very...
No.
That was quite an issue at the time.
You know, that's the scene that GNT wanted to cut out.
Yeah, because it was too political, I imagine.
And yet when they took it to show it to Jonathan Powell, famously
um, Cartmel, tell us a story that Jonathan Powell took a phone
call during the episode and so it was turned away from the screen
when that scene went on and Andrew Cartmel did something that he
found out later.
You just do not know.
You're not allowed to do it, yeah.
He grabbed the remote and said to Jonathan, I'm so sorry.
I think it's very important you see the scene, rewound it and
played it.
And at the end of the episode, Jonathan Powell said, thank you for
rewinding it.
That scene is the point of the episode.
She should have torn the sign up.
And then punched Mrs. Smith in the face.
It is such a powerful moment, especially because, you know, we've
seen with Ace already, just in 2 stories, that she is the kind of
person who will take actions before she considers them, not all
the time.
But the thing is, she goes to challenge Mrs. Smith and then kind
of just goes.
Besides, yeah, what's the point, you know, and I'm going out for
some fresh air, like, no, I can't I can't be here with you.
I would rather go fight a bunch of Daleks.
And I think, which is a proper British or small.
Yeah, it is actually.
There's the thing of taking on the tune. also a very wartime thing
of, you know, there was candour in not in non-disclosure.
So yeah, intimacy was expressed by what you didn't say.
Oh, I shouldn't say, it just me, intimacy.
But understanding and compassion was conveyed by what isn't said.
As a kid watching that?
I didn't know what coloured meant in that sense.
So my parents had to explain it to me.
And I think I said during a live tweet, I think that was my 1st
knowledge of what racism was.
We kind of said last season that Doctor Who is being they're
attempting to make Doctor Who on several levels again.
And here they're more capturing the child teenage and older
audience, I think, in this story than last year.
And I think the whole story sends a really good message about
racism, especially when Mike tries to justify his actions and uses
the words, you know, you've got to keep everyone out to give your
own people a chance and Ace just rounds on him.
Yeah.
And, you know, it makes it clear.
Five of them rapidly. makes it clear that I could have liked you.
We could have been something, but...
It could have been someone, but you just keep rattling on about
Adam Faith.
These pretty blonde hair.
I've got blonde hair.
He freaks out and fake.
But that's what makes this so good is that the Daleks are having a
racial divide.
Rachel Divine.
Rachel Divine. great, isn't it?
Make sure Sue is crisis.
Rachel Panama.
No, we're not going there again.
What do you call it?
What do you call a divisive article in a tabloid?
Miranda Divide.
Okay.
The Daleks have a racial divide.
And you know, we're as humans go, oh, I could see the viewers for
the listener in the UK.
Yeah.
And we go, oh, we're so much better than Daleks.
It's like, really?
Are we?
You know, we've got a boarding house who doesn't allow, quote
unquote, as the episodes as coloured people in there, but we also
have a speaking black character in the form of Joseph Marcel in
the cafe scene.
Which is another beautiful scene where the doctor comes to get his
cup of tea late at night and the whole bit about...
It is a bit good, isn't it?
Sure.
I think that's a little secret name they have for each other
anything to do with what appeared on screen.
Well, I quite like that because it gives the doctor a little bit
of interiority because what does the doctor think about, you know
overthrowing the Daleks or uniting Paradise Towers or doing
whatever the hell it is he does in Dragonfire.
Um, here, he's planning to do.
He's planning to do something.
He's planning to do something big.
You know, he's planning to destroy Skaro and it's all in his mind
from the very beginning.
And so we get a scene where he thinks about whether that's the
right thing to do or not.
And the way that's told.
We don't directly get to see what the doctor's thinking, but we do
get him to have that lovely conversation with the cafe owner.
And I love that the cafe owner, just, not the cafe owner because
he's, um, That's Harry, isn't it?
Yeah, the guy working.
Barry Fowler. you know his 1st film is in 1947, Ewan cry.
And in the 50s, he played paramour to Joan Collins.
I had enough of that.
That's why they called him...
He's had another...
That's why that's why they just called him Harry because she can't
you know, everyone, everyone knew him.
No, there's lots of old faces in this.
But Joseph Marcel plays John.
So I love the fact that he just dismisses the whole angst about
it.
He has no sort of particular philosophy.
It's just best thing is to get on with it.
And you know, all of that agonising gets kind of laughed at and
thrown out the window.
It's very cool.
And another thing I love about that scene is actually where they
cut it.
They cut it after that line of best thing is just to get on with
it, which is the human reaction, and it's showcasing the human
reaction versus the doctor's alien reaction.
The scene as originally shot then goes on that the little girl is
standing outside looking at the doctor, the girly dalek
controller.
And she runs off and the doctor says to John, uh, look, I think
you should get away for a few days.
Things are likely to get nasty around here and John's like, yeah
sure, whatever.
The doctor leaves a pound coin on the bench, goes outside.
John picks up the coin that says 1991 and the doctor's looking at
him through the window and gives him a nod and walks off.
And I'm glad they didn't include that because it changes the
emphasis of the scene.
Because the emphasis of the scene is the doctor's interiority.
But that end of the scene is the doctor doing something quirky for
the sake of being quirky.
You know, when he's when he's just given ace, a bag of proper
currency so she can blend in.
He chucks in a 1991 £one coin and then lectures ace.
Oh, you know, someone had found your tape deck, they could have
reversed engineered it.
Well, what about this?
Yeah, they could have reverse engineered the pound coin and we
would have had pound coins, you know, decades before they ever
existed.
It's post-defin currency.
And then we would have never had that glorious scene.
Carol Anne Ford.
Well, that's a reference.
Again, it's one of these references is the fact that...
Caroline Ford can't add up.
Okay, no, that Ace doesn't know about pre-decimal currents.
Yeah.
And it's full of references, just overflowing with them.
No, we're not just, I think we like Nathan's reference from
wherever it was 300 years ago when we 1st started this, that this
is actually from the universe of the pilot rather than the
broadcast series because of the dust jacket being... revolution.
I'm actually quite one with that one, yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, well, you know, it doesn't look the same.
A friend of the podcast, I believe it was Hooa Pete, but I
apologise.
If it wasn't, and it's someone else pointed out that maybe while
she was travelling through time and space, Clara actually swapped
swapped the books around.
So, Moffatt, he'll always be here because he had to put his grubby
little protuberances into everything, didn't he?
I think that's actually kind of died for me. that's here a time
for me when he just had to he just had to put himself in every
moment of every story that's ever been. couldn't just carry on.
I think that is actually a good point.
Doctor Who dies when it becomes self-referential.
But in this case, it isn't because it's referencing what everybody
else is doing, which is razor glass.
Weve moved on from Germany.
We are in England.
So we're talking about postmodernism.
Hooray!
Or even to the point where we have a sitting down to watch the
show that she's in.
Within the show.
Thank you.
Absolutely there.
And the cornerstone of... thing, which really was what we were
talking about at the time.
It's to analyse and reinvent the past with constant referencing
and deflation of that past and then reinterpretation as to what is
realistic.
But the humour of the 80s came from that deflation from that self
mocking.
There were ads on British TV, in grainy black and white of
products from that time, and then someone would come in in colour
and make a deadly piece steak on it, or do you remember that?
And Ben Elton's entire career, and therefore Rowan Atkinson's, and
therefore the young ones, and therefore, really all the stuff that
we've got, are Sandy Toxic would not exist if it wasn't for
remembrance.
She was in one, you know, when Rachel says, I think I'm going to
be sick.
It was.
Very, very cruel, yeah.
Or to be Susan Coleman now, wouldn't it?
I tweeted her and told her that.
She didn't respond.
So she better look out.
She did mention being cast as the doctor.
A doctor.
Yes, she did, yes.
You know, I have wondered to myself because Ben Aronovich
deliberately decided it was his choice to tie this story in with
an unearthly child.
The 1963 setting in Shoreditch and Andrew Cartmel and John Nathan
Turner were only too happy to because they did want this to be the
you know, this is the 25th anniversary.
Really would think it was a JNT idea, wouldn't you?
No, I mean, he supported it, but it was Aronovich's idea.
But Aronovic then discovered that Attacker the Cyberman had been
back to the junkyard as well.
So he actually toned down some of the references.
But it gets me wondering, in a show.
Yeah, exactly.
In Attack of the Cybermen, in episode two, we have that, oh, like
3 or 4 minute info dump scene where the doctor and Lytton explain
how the Cybermen came from Mondas, but then they went to Telos, and
then they invaded Earth, and then...
And then all the...
I can't remember.
Oh, I've seen it.
And then all the dinosaurs died and turned into oil and then
Charles started wearing all of Lady Dye's dresses. can't believe
it Anyway, that's actually in it.
Yeah.
I must have slipped into a coma at that part of it.
But in this, we do get another info dump scene.
It's where the doctor has explained Ace what the hand of Omega is
and why it came into being and who the 2 factions of Daleks are.
It does sound like a lavatory product, doesn't it?
A remote.
A remote manipulator, indeed.
But I was thinking to myself, what makes the attack of the
cyberman saying, you know what?
I quite like attack of the cyberman, but what makes that scene
quite leaden, but makes this one really electric?
and I think it's 2 things.
First of all, the stuff in remembrance of the Daleks is all new
information.
The only thing that sort of comes back in there is other names
wrestle on and Omega and then the story.
But then the story does new things with them in the post-modern
way.
Whereas Attack of the Siamen is just bringing us up to speed on
something in the park.
You know what this really is.
This was as if David Whittaker, Jody, to his mates had never
retired.
This is the Dalek Whittaker universe.
Did you notice the planet reference fan people?
I had to write it down as well.
Phoebius.
Three ringed planet who were in Scuro's system is in the Daleks
Whitaker strip.
And there's a little corner of it, pink with 3 rings around it.
When Scaro explodes.
Yeah, just in case you missed it.
David Wood owns the universe.
I actually think he has reincarnated as Jody, I think. to find
out.
He's just acquired an extra tea and taken our back to it.
Stop it there.
Gotten rid of his Thunderbird's eyebrows.
I think the Daleks are fantastic in this.
I mean, they're really good.
And I remember rattlingly good, aren't they?
At the time, I remember wondering about the 2 factions because of
course that's introduced in Revelation, which it manages to
reference without being boring.
You see, I didn't have a copy of Revelation as a kid didn't
matter.
I understood this.
Yeah, no, you don't need to, but the reason I've been rattling
around so much in this podcast is that I'm now sporting an extra
inflatable ball.
Well, yes, because, of course, the Daleks on this at Silv is want
to tell anyone who will listen.
He was in the Hobbit, you know, but the Daleks in this, instead of
having wheels, have 3 balls, which is why they sort of, but it was
so they could get over the cobblestones easier, but it does rather
make them look drunk.
Yeah, in the 60s, they used to put down a bit of fibreboard and
just have them...
Well, they couldn't afford it anymore.
I remember the 1st time I watched it thinking that they'd got the
continuity wrong because I had my copy of the Doctor Who Monster
book on hand.
Which is amazing because it doesn't even cover the car.
No, you get that car.
So, Davros was picked up by normal coloured daleks after creating
a race of sort of white and gold.
Yeah, that suited the kind of loveliness.
Yeah.
Have you noticed that?
Can we have a little nerdy tech moment that Dalek tech from now
on?
Is Art Deco?
The trans mat.
Yeah, the game show set, as you mentioned.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think they look fantastic too.
They don't have the light bulbs from a Morris minor anymore and
they don't have a sync plunger.
You know, all of that stuff has been updated.
They look really good and I think the colours look great.
Yeah, and that wasn't a feature of the of those cream coloured
Daleks in Revelation.
But of course, you know, we are led to believe that Davros is
leading the gray daleks from his, from his little motorcycle.
How does that work?
He captured them.
Yeah exactly.
And that the white Daleks, Supreme Daleks are being led by.
But the emperor.
But then shock horror.
The emperor looks terrible, doesn't it?
Like, it's straightly shockingly bad.
Yeah, yeah, someone wants to describe the dessert.
A shrieking airball, I see.
Sophie Aldred's had a glittering career since this, isn't she?
Really?
Putting on makeup and chanel earrings and pouting about being
upper middle class.
Sorry, Soph.
I loved you, but then on all the bloody DVD extra say, well, she
and I were terribly up in middle class.
It was lovely of them to give me a girly chum.
Every story.
My lovely girly chum in this one was Alison Bleep because now one
can fricking remember what she is or watching it.
Who is she in this?
Listen to countermeasures, he still wafts about in a number 2
prisoner scarf. and, you know, looks tries to look useful.
I think she makes the two.
So much feminine. very good actually.
Green Garson. who it is?
Yeah.
Karen Gladhill.
She's charming.
Yeah, yeah. doesn't do anything.
She has she has a couple of great lines and one of them is when
Mike Clobber's that that pretty ginger soldier.
Oh, hello.
And Rachel says to Alison, is he all right?
And Alison responds, I don't know, I'm the physicist.
I think that's a dig at Liz Shaw, who just conveniently becomes a
medical doctor for no reason at some point in info. like to think
they thought that way.
But the brigadier does say that Liz has degrees in half a dozen
other subjects.
We've covered this.
She only looks 28.
Any doctorate takes at least 4 years.
Well, remember, her husband is the master, so he absorbs life
energy and gives it to her.
That'd be an interesting take on breakfast table conversation
wouldn't it?
What have you got for me to absorb sporting date?
Sarah Sutton's career.
God, that's like a value out of torping the doctor's future lives
isn't it?
I think part of what makes this story works so well and what makes
this season works so well. what makes the continuity work so well
is Sylvester's insistence that Sophie's character as ace gets more
to do.
And it was something that Andrew Cartmel was very passionate about
as well, because as much as he thought too much has been revealed
about the doctor.
As much as he thought, the doctor is not a positive influence on
stories, which is something we complained about during Collins
era.
He also thought that the companion, you know, if the doctor is
being pushed down in the order of the story, the companion gets
pushed down with him.
So bring them both up together at the same time.
So in that scene, where the doctor's explaining the hand of Omega
rather than Nate's just saying, what is it, Doctor Who's Omega
Doctor?
Whats this?
WhatsApp?
She asks questions like, so it manipulates starts.
You know, she asks for clarification, using information, and when
the doctor slips up and says, didn't we have trouble with the
prototype, she is immediately on it.
Yes, we and it'll come back again in Silver Nemesis as well.
You know, Sudech is very talkative today. everyone's got something
to say about this story.
I really like that hilarious response where the doctor says it's
called the Hand of Omega because Time Lords have an infinite
capacity for pretention, much like this. much like this podcast.
She just says, yeah, I've noticed that. which I just think is
wonderful.
And you know, she uses the anti-Tank rocket on the Dalek and the
doctor's like, you destroyed it?
She like, I aim for the eye.
Okay, yeah, aim for the eyepiece with a handgun.
It doesn't particularly matter when you use an anti-tank rocket.
That actually is an ATR.
And she was, and that is a powder burn on the back wall.
And she did get the recoil in the shoulder.
You can tell my every little girl of a certain inclination and age
I've done it frame.
I've done that frame by frame and you see the backblast, make the
make the burn mark.
She also did the jump through the window herself.
No, she didn't.
That was tip tipping's wife, but she did all the shots before and
on.
She wanted to, but it was the one thing they would not let.
Oh, okay.
Okay, okay.
Because, oh, that's right.
Yeah, she does, sorry. being a girl, she'll sprain her ankle.
And actually, she does that.
Yeah, so she jumps towards the window.
They use the other shot. with the stuntwoman going through the
window, but she then does crash into the wall, does the running
through the corridor, et cetera, et cetera.
And tip tipping kind of said to her, okay, after that take was
done.
He took her by the arm, took her to a chair, sat her down, and he
said, now you sit here.
And she's like, why?
And he said, you just sit here and she says, you know, a few
minutes later, I was essentially in shock.
And he said, look, that happens even to experience stunt people
and I just, I knew it was going to happen.
Pushy cows like you, they got jobs away from a lot of workers.
Well, that will eventually see the end of tip tipping on the show
won't it?
But we're getting ahead of ourselves.
No, not Sophie Aldred, but a stuntman situation.
Yeah, but you didn't tell Doctor Who.
No, no, no, no.
Just everyone else's career.
Yeah, a couple of years later.
He's bit lovely too.
He's the he's the lad that brings in Mike.
It's Mike.
For a get about Tommy.
He's really got a bit of a Jesus fixation.
He dies 3 or 4 times in this show.
You seem quite clearly in the junkyard. quite clearly corralling
the troops.
Of course, he'd been in the SA yes.
He got all that precision happening.
And the big thing in fan crap at the time was that that extra at
the end was out of sync and they said, no, no, that's an homage to
Clive Dunn in dad's army.
Oh, right.
Was it Luddy fans?
It works because this is the best dialect story in Doctor Who so
far?
No.
I think Power of the Daleks is the best Doctor Who story. the best
Dalek story.
It is very, very good though.
And we haven't had a good Dalek story for, well, maybe since
Genesis.
You're right, because at the time we thought it was, but no one
had seen power since the time.
You know what?
It knocks spots off the other Deveraux stories mainly because
Deveraux's innocent in it so much. in a roll-on.
Yes.
That's not a slight against Terry Malloy.
Terry Malloy is a really...
I'd like a saucy calendar of him floating in a bathtub of rice
pudding.
But I think in the mask, obviously.
Well, you know, we've discussed before that Terry Nation was of
the opinion that he had to create Davros because Daleks can't
deliver dialogue for sustained periods of time.
What?
We've discussed... shown that that's not necessarily the case.
Russell as well.
I mean, it was a long time before Dave Ross was reintroduced.
There are plenty of Dalek stories. and they're fine.
You know, you just have to write for them.
Nick Priggs has the range.
He does.
Well, he does.
No, quite literally has the range.
But the thing is, Terry Terry Nation, of course, still had vetting
rights on scripts at this point.
Yes.
Originally, Ben Aronovich discussed not using Dabros at all, and
JNT said to him, no, he's got to be he has to be in there
somewhere because otherwise we won't get it past tearing.
And even then, when Terry got the scripts that...
Even then when Terry got the scripts and Davros was only revealed
like in the last 10 minutes.
Terry did complain.
He said Davro should be in it more, Deborah, should be in it
more.
And John Nathan Turner pointed out, ah, yes, but you see, this
Dalek controller that we've got on the other side. is going to
look like Davros from behind.
So everyone's going to think Davros is on the side of the black
Daleks until it's revealed to be the little girl and then we
revealed Davros.
And at that point, Terry Nation was happy because Davros would be
felt, as it were, throughout the story, without actually being in
it.
I think this is a good time, though, to talk about Yasmin breaks
as the girl.
One of many little girls in the Sylvester McCoy era of Andrew
Carmel's Little Girls.
The last one, Stella, was not particularly successful.
Yeah, like really terrible and we couldn't work out why she was
even in it.
They owe a lot to the 1962 film.
We've already addressed the bad seed.
Which is John one of John Walter's greatest favourite films of all
time, which has a little girl, exactly, like Jasmine Brakes, who
knocks about in some poor bloke's nicked bike helmet. with a torch
on the end of it.
Yeah, well, you know she's got the bicycle helmet over the
incontinence chair.
We're kind of used to children being in Doctor Who now, but they
weren't really in it very much at all in the classic series.
Good reason.
I mean, yeah, I'm thinking...
Reign of Terror, had a child.
Yeah.
And he's good.
Yeah, probably.
Debbie Watling, lovely our Debbie Watling, played a child.
She was only meant to be a child.
Yeah, and as we record today.
Yeah, Debbie passed away yesterday.
Yeah, which is, which is very sad.
We'd met her at a convention.
Yeah, yeah. was lovely. highly encased in cylinder of smoke, just
like the hand of home.
It was a Nikoner at the right every moment.
Don't forget gin.
But I do like a woman who likes a gin movie suit.
A segue to say, the last time I met Debbie, because of course, met
her in 2005, we had a convention with her.
Yes, and Fraser?
Yeah.
A few years later in the UK, I met her at convention again, and
she said to me in the bar, I know you.
And I said, yes, but I have less hair now.
But then I met her, again, a few years ago at another convention
here where I was dressed like Daphne Ashbrook in the telly movie
if we remember.
We dated.
Um, and Debbie just looked at me and said, What is it you're
wearing?
And I pointed at Daphne and said, oh, well, you see, I like
dressing up as Doctor Who Girl, so I'm dressed up as her.
And so the last words Debbie Watling ever spoke to me were, oh
darling, I thought you were one of the normal ones.
I was hoping she was going to say when are you going to do me?
Yes.
But that is how I shall remember her thinking I was normal.
In such an enclosed petri dish, she would look for a norm.
But but sinister children in the 80s were the bread and butter of
horror films, you know, children doing horrible things.
And, you know, in the 60s, we'd had Village of the Damned children
of the Damned.
Macaulay Culkin.
Yes that's right.
But I think she does an incredible job.
And I think Cody Olson twins.
If I were to criticise Jasmine breaks for something.
It would be, you know, she's given a few lines and they're not
particularly great, but at the same time, she's dialect
controlled.
So things like time controller activated.
It's just, it's just a little bit, it's just a little bit stagey.
But when she's silent and just looking around and looking at
things, she's incredibly sinister.
Well, I think she's just it. channelling later 18th season, Lal
Awards, isn't she?
It's as if Tom Baker is constantly just off camera.
Because that whole slitch as soon as look at you.
You know what?
I kind of wish all of her diary was.
That's why she was giving him eyes because, you know, women tended
to do that to Tom at that period of his life.
I kind of wish all of her dialogue had been in the nursery rhyme
hopscotch tune that she sings because of course that wouldn't have
been irritating at all.
But that had been made sinister at the time by the Freddy Krueger
films.
No, it would have been really good.
And in iambic pentameter, obviously.
But, you know, that is a minor criticism of a really good use of a
character.
She only 12 you bastard.
I'm a Doctor Who fan. have to find something to criticise.
We've already criticised the Daleks testicles.
Well, you may say that I'm finding them extremely comfortable, but
buoyantly so.
I think you'd look really good in that.
She is even cosplaying Lala in France.
Oh, dear.
And as Rachel is cosplaying.
Just take a moment.
Barbara.
Yeah, Barbara.
Oh, that is so deliberate and so wonderful.
The cardigan.
You feel like unravelling it or... some great moments.
She's in the back of the transit van, which, by the way, that
Bedford van is not a 19623 model for the fanboys out there, is a
later one.
The black one with the the red prop on the top. when she says
group captain, I've got a man.
Even that's really good.
You know, fabulous.
It moves at such a pace.
Yeah, they're starting to do things on location, which are really
good.
There's a lot of stuff on location.
People look like they're enjoying themselves.
Yeah.
And there's action, like there's proper action with stuff
exploding and things.
Wordgasm, peril.
Yes.
Time Incorporated.
I think everyone's pretended that never happened.
Including me and I spent like 2 weeks editing it.
Even when we do have WordParel, like when the doctor says the
Daleks have weapons capable of cracking this planet open like an
egg.
No, that works because we have seen their firepower.
And it's 1963 and there's a cold war on.
Yeah, we just had the Bay of Pigs.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, that hence that opening, you know, the cold open, which so
rarely happens in Doctor Who.
Is it the 2nd one after Castravalva?
only the 3rd time.
Flight doctors had a cold open as well.
Okay.
Yeah.
That's a bit harsh on Billy.
He was dead.
Do you know, that was going to be her Madge.
It was going to be the queen in that thing. and I asked it, and
they approached the palace.
You cannot, cannot, do you?
You cannot sound bite, the queen.
Majesty, but you can add Prince Pillow.
That is a bit of Prince Philip in there.
Yeah, yeah.
As many a showgirl has attested.
Yeah, I think that's a bloody wonderful opening shot as well.
It's weird that it ends in a freeze frame, but the sign from
that.
My father was at a party in 1968 with Shirley Bassey, where she
did something I cannot mention on this podcast, but she was also
flirting with him because he was attractive in his day and that
she'd had a fling with Prince Philip.
She was very strong about suggesting that to the civil gentleman
at the time.
She was having a fling with Prince Philip at the time, 68.
So she's in this and all.
You're going to be executed for treason.
Well, I don't think...
I don't think it's tearing the Lord.
Prince Philip without makeup.
That's really bassy, obviously.
I will teach you the fully of your words.
Actually, I think that might catch on.
Jodie Whitaker is the doctor.
Shirley Bassey is Davros.
I think every single person in the news show should be a lady
type.
Is the future?
I like it.
Zion inversion.
Yeah.
You know what?
I like to see Oswald Oswald coming as the companion for a little
while.
Charming, but Chipman won't do that because it wasn't his idea.
No.
I think it's time to move away from all of the Moffat
paraphernalia, really.
Although, I think it would be a great time to bring Ace back.
School reunion style.
Just one story?
She said that on the TVD.
I'm up a meal car side.
No, people know that.
I would I would just like to say one more thing before we go
because we've mentioned the rest of the primary guest cast.
We should really mention, we should really mention Simon Williams
was the brigadier we never had.
Isn't he a bit lovely?
Gilmore.
Were you always downstairs looking at him upstairs or were you
upstairs looking at him downstairs?
I never bloody watched it.
It looks...
Frizzingly boring, although Lana Ward was in it.
And of course, Gene Martin.
Oh no, that's Duchess of Duke Street.
Yeah, Gene Marsh was.
Yes, that's right. was actually fingering from the, you know, with
a Ian McKellen cape on a pointy hat.
Up upstairs, downstairs at the Duchess of Duke Street with the
House of Idiot next door.
Yeah.
You know that's what this was.
The House of Idiot.
No, it was Battlefield.
Battlefield is the story he pitched, but they went, oh, no, because
we've actually got a show that's a bit like that.
So you should do this one, which turns out to be exactly like
another one called Silver Nemesis that was coming later in the
season.
And of course, the working title for this one was Nemesis of the
Doctor.
Yeah. which is also a comic strip in the Doctor Who Monthly.
Well, that's where the title then.
I think we're going to implode inside our own fandom, like a tiny
neutron star, aren't we?
You know earlier where you said that something annoying, yes.
Yes.
You said that Moffat had, we'll probably have cut it out.
I'll do that this.
Everything.
I take up an hour and they only need 5 minutes.
Where you said that Stephen Moffat had sort of colonised the whole
show by inserting Clara into every scene.
Aronovich does this to the doctor because when the doctor's in
London in 1963, he's not a timelord.
He's not from the planet Galifre.
He's not hiding the hand of Omega somewhere.
You know, he's a mysterious old man from a distant planet.
And this is the show kind of trying to rope him back in and make
him be what the doctor ended up being.
Right.
Is this the rise of the moths?
This is that this is the seed, the kernel, which should all
blues.
It's the show going back and changing its own past.
In a way that Attack of the Sidemen didn't do at all.
No, it was just too busy giving David Banks opportunities to write
sort of lead and you know, compendiums of drawings of various
cybermen designs.
I do think it's Episode one is Colin Baker's greatest moment as
the doctor.
I think Attack of the Simon episode one is just hilarious with
full colon.
Yeah, yeah, running around.
You asked me to say something nice last time.
No, but I mean, it really is.
If it had stayed like that, I wouldn't have minded.
Yeah, they're lovely together in it.
Be those policemen.
Sad lacking of Brian Blessed in the episode.
Yeah.
No, I quite like him in that too.
I think excitement is terrible.
Terrific.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's another example of why remembrance
works better than Attack of the Sidemen because...
Well, because yes, it does recon, but it recons in a way that
doesn't necessarily contradict what we knew before.
So even though you sort of look at the 1st doctor and you go, he's
not a man with a mission.
Nobody could be a man with a dangerous machine on board that he's
trying to keep out of alien hands, especially with his lecture to
Susan about how these savages will never understand our
technology.
So, you know, okay, why bury it in their graveyard?
But...
The point is...
My, my, it's another Jeffrey Beaver's moment to carry is, my
darling.
You know why this works?
All that stuff's just for us.
It works because it talks about us now and us back then and us at
whatever age sitting there, when our parents were doing the groove
in 6263, saying, parents were wrong, they weren't cool.
They were actually like this, and we all went, yeah.
And it's got a proper story.
It's garlic shooting each other. you know, like it's very clear.
Because every, yeah, because it's got your guns, as you've put it
it's got your frocks, and it's got a bit of truthiness as well.
Casual reviewers.
If the BBC could, and they did promote this and it didn't do that
badly, did it?
No, this guy...
This got 5 million. they're going to get even more later in the
season.
If they just chose to promote, they actually ended up doing quite
well, they just tended to ignore it.
Yeah, average ratings for this are around 5.45.5.
Audience appreciation index around the 70s.
Which is extraordinary.
We haven't that for a while.
In fact, I don't think we've had that, gosh, since Revelation.
And this is around the time it was up against Coronation Street.
Imagine if they put it on Saturday night.
Those ratings would have gone up by at least a million, which
would have been what Peter was getting at the end and Colin was
getting in his 1st season because Collins ratings in his 1st
season were respectable.
So, yeah, the BBC is trying to kill it and JNT and Andrew Cartmel
are saying, fine, we're going to make the best damn show we can.
This is the season where everyone cares a lot and it will show.
Stay tuned to someone used to say.
Well, dear listener, that's all the time we have for remembrance
of the Daleks as part of Australia's remembrance of the Daleks
podcast month.
Do come back next week for the happiness, patrol.
In the meantime, in the show notes for this episode, you can vote
for your choice of a Colin Baker story commentary and we have 4
stories nominated.
Todd has nominated the mark of the Rani.
Richard has nominated Revelation of the Daleks.
I am nominating the Mysterious Planet, a.k.a.
Trial of a Time Lord, episodes one to four, and Nathan has
nominated Terror of the Verboids, a.k.a.
Trial of a Time Lord, 9 to 12.
So, sorry, folks, you won't get us to watch Time Lash.
Meanwhile, over on Bondfinger, we are about to get 3 quarters of
the way through the Pierce Brosnan era of James Bond.
Next week we'll be releasing our commentary for the world is not
enough.
So do check that out on bondfinger.com.
Bondfinger on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at Bondfingercast on
Twitter.
We, of course, are flightthrough entiret.sexy.
Flights are entirety on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at FTE
podcast on Twitter.
Until next time, don't bloody throw us in a lake because you
better believe there'll be consequences.
Thank you very much for listening and good night.
Good night. 3 settings.
Good night.
That was Flight Your Entirety with Nathan Bottomley, Brennan Jones
and Richard Stone, theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, logo
designed by Anthony Wells.
This episode, Daleksa Forever, was recorded on the 22nd of July
2017.
Next episode will be released on August 6th.
We dedicate this episode to the memory of Deborah Watley, who
played Victoria in Doctor Who.
She sleeps in our mind, but we won't forget.
I think I've now officially run out of closing credits jokes.
Base them on a line from the episode.
That's what I always do.
Okay.
Or just steal them from Steven.
Since he's stolen our entire ball now.
And had success.
Tagline.
Yeah, no, I hate I hate talented, attractive people.
If I knew someone, I'd probably be all right with that.
So you start off by slagging off Stephen Muskovsky.
And they just slag off all of our listeners, but then you don't
know any attractive people.
Hooray We have very attractive listeners, right?