WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 13:54:52 1 00:00:51.000 --> 00:01:01.619 Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flightthrough Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast to When We're On For Make Programs that the Human Physiology is not equipped to bear the pleasure of. 2 00:01:01.679 --> 00:01:02.280 I'm Brandon. 3 00:01:02.340 --> 00:01:04.859 I'm Nathan I'm a half sucked all sort for this one. 4 00:01:05.879 --> 00:01:11.280 We're learning all about population control from Helen A. It's the happiness patrol. 5 00:01:24.780 --> 00:01:29.219 Well, she realises this isn't completely the wrong podcast order. 6 00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:30.780 It's meant to be the fourth of the series. 7 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:31.739 I know. 8 00:01:31.739 --> 00:01:32.519 You know what? 9 00:01:32.579 --> 00:01:33.180 The badge. 10 00:01:33.239 --> 00:01:34.920 If any of you want to argue, the badge. 11 00:01:34.980 --> 00:01:51.959 Well, I actually suggested that there was a big finish spinoff series called The Earring Chronicles that explains how flower child's earring gets on on Sophie's thing and silver nemesis. 12 00:01:52.019 --> 00:01:55.140 I say that, because there'll be 4 series of 4 stories each. 13 00:01:55.200 --> 00:01:56.099 Yeah, yeah. 14 00:01:56.159 --> 00:01:57.299 You just need to say it 3 times. 15 00:01:57.359 --> 00:02:00.719 The earring Chronicles, the earring Chronicles, the earring Chronicles. 16 00:02:00.780 --> 00:02:01.739 Wow, it exists. 17 00:02:01.799 --> 00:02:03.540 Check out bigfinish.com. 18 00:02:03.599 --> 00:02:06.120 With Jacqueline Pierce as the earring. 19 00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:09.360 So, yeah. 20 00:02:09.479 --> 00:02:13.800 Actually, this seems like a good time as any to discuss the proposed order, a story. 21 00:02:13.860 --> 00:02:26.639 So remembrance of the Daleks was meant to start the season, followed by Greater Show in the Galaxy. followed by Silver Nemesis, followed by this, and what scuppered that was, coverage of the Olympics, which pushed... 22 00:02:26.639 --> 00:02:30.900 Yep, which pushed, which pushed Doctor Who's broadcast back by one week. 23 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:42.060 JNT still wanted Silver Nemesis to start on the 23rd of November, meaning with remembrance going first, and Silver Nemesis having to start on that date, there was only a 3 week slot available. 24 00:02:42.120 --> 00:02:44.580 So Happiness Patrol had to go in there. 25 00:02:44.639 --> 00:02:50.639 Greatest Show had to go last, which we'll discuss that continuity, terror later in the season. 26 00:02:50.699 --> 00:02:58.020 But yes, here we have a three-part story, the studio-based three-parter, again directed by Chris Clough. 27 00:02:58.080 --> 00:02:59.580 Chris Timbleclough. 28 00:02:59.639 --> 00:03:05.759 I really love the Australian broadcast, if we can all just talk about our youth again when we 1st saw this. 29 00:03:05.819 --> 00:03:07.020 What's his name? 30 00:03:07.080 --> 00:03:08.520 Sorry, we had a... 31 00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:11.819 We were name checking Andrew Hodson all through this. 32 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:16.319 Not Stephen Watts's face because he almost gets on the radio. 33 00:03:17.159 --> 00:03:21.840 Even though we've been doing this before you were even fetally engaged. 34 00:03:22.800 --> 00:03:24.659 We love you. 35 00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:26.400 Richard may not, but we love you. 36 00:03:26.460 --> 00:03:28.379 It's not going on the cut my own floor. 37 00:03:28.919 --> 00:03:40.319 Yeah, it was a really lovely order for the show because we haven't got there yet, but the wandabee, the almost been final scene of this story, would have been an extraordinary going out. 38 00:03:40.379 --> 00:03:42.780 Happiness was... 39 00:03:42.840 --> 00:03:44.879 No, Helen A and Fifi. 40 00:03:44.939 --> 00:03:45.960 Oh, yes, God. 41 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:47.699 Yeah, let's jump ahead. 42 00:03:47.759 --> 00:03:51.180 Imagine that as the very final moment of this season. would have said a lot. 43 00:03:51.240 --> 00:03:55.439 It's actually just about my favourite scene of the classic era. 44 00:03:55.500 --> 00:04:01.020 It really, really is extraordinary. and I was tearing up watching it when we'd live. 45 00:04:01.080 --> 00:04:05.159 We've had personal experience because you're savage marauding hounds. 46 00:04:05.219 --> 00:04:05.879 That's it. 47 00:04:05.939 --> 00:04:18.720 Like, I, you know, does the dog die.com, which is a website you can go to to check whether the dog in a film dies so that you can... 48 00:04:18.779 --> 00:04:22.139 They've already covered the reboot of canine voice by John Leason, haven't they? 49 00:04:22.199 --> 00:04:24.000 Not to give any way anything away. 50 00:04:24.060 --> 00:04:25.439 It's dead by the 1st episode. 51 00:04:25.500 --> 00:04:28.259 And obviously Mark of the Rani. 52 00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:32.819 And obviously Marley and me just comes with, no, why are you even considering this? 53 00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:40.680 A dog's a dog's purpose where a whole bunch of dogs die one after the other spoiler alert. canine company. 54 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:45.959 But I just think it's amazingly brilliantly beautiful. 55 00:04:46.019 --> 00:04:49.500 And a story that had been really political. 56 00:04:49.800 --> 00:04:53.879 Really, yeah, becomes really personal. 57 00:04:53.939 --> 00:05:18.779 It becomes about this one woman's, uh, you know, inability to properly understand about the relationship between love and grief, that, um, that you can't love someone without paying for it, that every relationship ends and grief is part of the process of loving anything. 58 00:05:18.839 --> 00:05:20.639 You know, it's a stupid puppet. 59 00:05:20.699 --> 00:05:23.819 The puppet is hilarious, like fabulously funny. 60 00:05:24.779 --> 00:05:27.959 No, no, no, I know, but it's a really good little point. 61 00:05:28.019 --> 00:05:28.740 It is a good pub. 62 00:05:28.800 --> 00:05:29.819 It's good for the time, you know. 63 00:05:29.879 --> 00:05:30.779 Oh, it's still good. 64 00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:35.759 It's just not well lit, but we've been they've still got this thing quite dark, considering. 65 00:05:35.819 --> 00:05:44.939 You know, I would not say that the puppetry in the never-ending story, which had multimillions of dollars poured into it, was that much better. more working on that as well. 66 00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:51.540 There are some great snarls where Fifi bears, it's teeth at the end of a scene and growls. 67 00:05:51.660 --> 00:05:58.319 And like, I think it's really super funny and having her, you know, Fifi's been eating far too many jockeys lately. 68 00:05:58.379 --> 00:06:00.120 Basically, Nigel Lawson. 69 00:06:01.079 --> 00:06:06.120 I mean, I wonder his daughter is obsessed with sweetie things after this, yeah. 70 00:06:06.180 --> 00:06:10.199 But it really is extremely beautiful, I think. 71 00:06:10.259 --> 00:06:20.399 And the music, like Dominic Glynn's music just sells it and then the, yeah, can we go with a pulls up from, it's a beautiful shock composition with her crying and Sylvester and Sophie Watch. 72 00:06:20.459 --> 00:06:22.379 And what's wonderful about that music. 73 00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:27.300 Again, it's Dominic Glynn, and I'm gonna say this every time we mention Dominic Glynn, Dominic. 74 00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:30.060 Thank you for allowing us to use your music and Time Incorporated. 75 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:31.800 What a zinger of a story. 76 00:06:32.040 --> 00:06:40.199 But the thing is, that sort of crescendo of music has been fed all the way through the story. 77 00:06:40.259 --> 00:06:42.060 It's the tunes Earl is playing. 78 00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:46.620 There's little tiny bits of it throughout and then it just becomes this big thing. 79 00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:52.079 I love Sophie's reaction, or rather, Ace's reaction to Helen A crying. 80 00:06:52.139 --> 00:06:54.959 She genuinely looks sorry for her. 81 00:06:55.019 --> 00:06:59.699 Like, Professor, can't we do anything for this horrible dictator who's murdered? 82 00:06:59.819 --> 00:07:00.779 over half a 1000000 people. 83 00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:03.420 Yeah, if the census is to be believed. 84 00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:04.079 Exactly. 85 00:07:04.139 --> 00:07:07.920 We have Pinoche and Chatesque doing exactly the same thing at the time. 86 00:07:07.980 --> 00:07:09.839 And Thatcher, in fact, why? 87 00:07:09.899 --> 00:07:11.879 selling, you know, at the beginning of the arms. 88 00:07:11.939 --> 00:07:18.480 The reason that Britain's money went up was not because she fired every single minor in every working class man. 89 00:07:18.540 --> 00:07:25.620 Of course, she was nicely flirting with every Saudi prince she could find and flogging him every bit of tech she could get a hands on. 90 00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:29.519 Not only that, but the suppression of public grief from a certain sector of the community. 91 00:07:29.579 --> 00:07:32.879 Ah, and we will be touching on that later on before. 92 00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:39.540 Before we get to that, can we stay with exposition and construction of this story and the major influence of this little film? 93 00:07:39.540 --> 00:07:41.339 Because it actually is a film in 3 parts. 94 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:45.899 Dominic Glynn is a big fan of Sir Carol Reed and Austin Wells. 95 00:07:45.959 --> 00:07:50.339 And Carol Reed's a big fan of a certain period of German filmmaking. 96 00:07:50.339 --> 00:07:54.120 And there's an extraordinary film called The Third Man. 97 00:07:54.180 --> 00:07:56.519 With awesome Wells, right at the very end. 98 00:07:56.579 --> 00:07:59.220 It's mostly Joseph Cotton wandering around trying to find. 99 00:07:59.339 --> 00:08:00.540 Or some laws. 100 00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:01.079 Have you watched it? 101 00:08:01.139 --> 00:08:01.800 It's on Stan. 102 00:08:01.860 --> 00:08:02.939 You can see it for nothing. 103 00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:05.160 Um, it's a gorgeous film. 104 00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:12.060 It's film wire at, at, at Britain's greatest, um, with his, um, zither music. 105 00:08:12.120 --> 00:08:14.699 So it's got that lovely Hungarian kind of beautiful. 106 00:08:14.759 --> 00:08:23.160 It's all filmed around Budapest, but both Chris Koff and Dominic and everyone else said, we want to do this as a remake of the 3rd man. 107 00:08:23.220 --> 00:08:24.600 We want to shoot it in black and white. 108 00:08:24.660 --> 00:08:25.560 Have a look. 109 00:08:25.620 --> 00:08:27.120 There's an image that we'll put up. 110 00:08:27.180 --> 00:08:32.700 The very 1st moment when you get, um, the actress who's been in everything. 111 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:35.220 Daphne Oxenbold. 112 00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:46.860 That's the one as, um, it's a cool joy, and it's, it's almost the, it's beautiful, but it's, it is almost a frame from the, the use of the, of the crane, so it does come from a certain period of German filmmaking. 113 00:08:46.919 --> 00:08:52.980 And yeah, we don't often see crane shots for dramatic scenes in Doctor Who. 114 00:08:53.039 --> 00:08:54.659 There was a lot... 115 00:08:54.720 --> 00:09:05.399 Yeah, because, yeah, there was a lot in the early 80s Doctor Who, season 18, um, Peter's seasons where the crane would be used to sort of show off the the main set the 1st time we see it. 116 00:09:05.460 --> 00:09:06.360 And cleavage. 117 00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:18.659 But here, you know, here, you know, we do we do get that a few times and there is lots of what are known as Dutch tilts or Batman angles with the frame being tilted. 118 00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:25.080 What I noticed when I was last watching it is, yeah, they weren't allowed to shoot it in black and white as they'd hoped. 119 00:09:25.139 --> 00:09:29.460 But the set design is still very monochrome. 120 00:09:29.519 --> 00:09:32.580 But did you notice they've actually painted the sets in honey greys? 121 00:09:32.639 --> 00:09:34.980 So the only things that are colour to the characters and the items. 122 00:09:35.100 --> 00:09:37.919 Yeah, and just occasional bits of pink and yellow. 123 00:09:37.980 --> 00:09:41.039 Everything's pink and yellow with the exception of things in the candy kitchen. 124 00:09:41.100 --> 00:09:42.000 And the planet. 125 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:44.100 Well, the planet's pink and yellow. 126 00:09:44.159 --> 00:09:45.179 Exactly. and yellow. 127 00:09:45.299 --> 00:09:52.799 Um, but it's incredibly effective and it sort of shows what Frank Miller was doing in comic books for us. 128 00:09:52.860 --> 00:09:54.360 Yeah, with Batman new one. 129 00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:55.320 Yeah, exactly. 130 00:09:55.440 --> 00:09:58.379 Killing Batman killing joke at the same time, yeah. 131 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:06.360 Yeah, sort of not and, you know, not exactly monochrome, but strong use of individual colours to draw the eye within the frame. 132 00:10:06.419 --> 00:10:07.860 And that's what happens here. 133 00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:11.279 And I think it really helps that Sophie's costume is mostly black. 134 00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:15.840 And Sylvester's costume is mostly yellows or shades of yellow. 135 00:10:15.899 --> 00:10:22.500 There are reds in there, but you know, he's got a cream jacket, he's got his yellow pullover and his brown check trousers. 136 00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:23.639 So they fit in as well. 137 00:10:23.700 --> 00:10:26.220 Imagine if this had been Perry and 60. 138 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:28.559 And we can say 60 because you know who coined that term? 139 00:10:28.679 --> 00:10:30.000 Colin Bay. 140 00:10:30.059 --> 00:10:31.919 No, not in my presence. 141 00:10:31.980 --> 00:10:32.460 Did he really did? 142 00:10:32.519 --> 00:10:34.679 He calls himself that every bloody interview he does. 143 00:10:34.740 --> 00:10:36.059 Deal with it, Nathan. 144 00:10:36.539 --> 00:10:39.720 I can't see how this story would have worked with the previous. 145 00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:44.580 No, they would have shot Perry on the spot, the happiness patrol. 146 00:10:44.940 --> 00:10:47.460 But it wouldn't work. 147 00:10:47.460 --> 00:10:51.240 That's massive strontium 90 of whining right there, isn't it? 148 00:10:51.299 --> 00:10:52.860 He's too big. 149 00:10:52.919 --> 00:10:56.039 He attracts too much attention to himself. 150 00:10:56.100 --> 00:11:02.759 And this is a story where the doctor lurks like Trout and quietly working to overthrow the government. 151 00:11:02.759 --> 00:11:10.139 And there is a lot of him just going from place to place and setting things. actually in motion. in the 3rd man. 152 00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:14.639 Yeah, and something else this reminds me of in terms of Doctor Who is actually the sun makers. 153 00:11:14.700 --> 00:11:22.799 Well, it's funny that, because Sunmakers influenced a lot of comics. certainly Judge Dredd and the writers, you know, nodded to Doctor Who with that era. 154 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:27.720 Sunmakers Judge Dred, 2000 AD, this lot, cart melt. 155 00:11:27.779 --> 00:11:29.580 It's just, it's comfortably full circle. 156 00:11:29.639 --> 00:11:50.940 I think I think it's a tradition, um, which is started by the savages, actually, where the doctor comes to a society that is set up to illustrate political oppression in some way, a society that that's characteristics work on a sort of allegorical level, and he overthrows it in one night. 157 00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:54.419 And that's very definitely his mission when he arrives. 158 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:55.679 It's the beginning of a night. 159 00:11:55.740 --> 00:12:00.240 It all takes place over the course of one single night. 160 00:12:00.299 --> 00:12:05.100 And by the end of the story, he's overthrown the government. 161 00:12:05.159 --> 00:12:22.139 I think the savages does it beautifully. beautifully, that's another one we were going to talk about as being an antecedent of this. yes Yeah, well, I think so. and it's a society where, you know, allegorically a group of people are sucking the life out of another group of people in order to prosper. 162 00:12:22.200 --> 00:12:26.220 So it's about imperialism or the convention circuit. 163 00:12:27.840 --> 00:12:44.220 And um, and this one, the happiness thing where, where unhappiness is a code for political dissent, the idea of disagreeing, of being unhappy with the status quo is criminalised. 164 00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:46.620 Right at the point of section 28. 165 00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:47.759 Yeah, yeah. 166 00:12:47.820 --> 00:12:48.480 No, exactly. 167 00:12:48.539 --> 00:12:58.200 So this is Andrew Cartmel attempting to fulfil his initial aim, which is to overthrow Thatcher's government by having Helen A, who is clearly Thatcher. 168 00:12:58.259 --> 00:13:01.440 She's practised media kind of performance. 169 00:13:01.500 --> 00:13:03.840 Some of the lines. of the ones they cut out. 170 00:13:03.899 --> 00:13:13.379 And how about Sheila Hancock, who's since gone on to completely bault face, but at the time, was so with it with this narrative and the idea of it. 171 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:14.580 She's wonderful. 172 00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:19.500 I think she's superb and perfectly cast and really bites the part, doesn't she? 173 00:13:19.559 --> 00:13:21.299 She really, my favourite. 174 00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:23.159 She really gets in there. 175 00:13:23.220 --> 00:13:28.200 I think we spent months and months just quoting lines from each other all the time. 176 00:13:29.100 --> 00:13:31.139 Strawberry, madam. 177 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:34.500 You know, it's it's really, really tremendous. 178 00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:49.259 It does have some other antecedents in things like there's a Monty Python story about Happy Valley where wise King Otto had had all of the unhappy people put to death many years earlier along with the trade union leaders. 179 00:13:50.220 --> 00:14:01.019 Anyone with any personal problems would be prosecuted under the Happiness Act. Doctor Who hasn't been this of the now, this with it and down with kids since the 60s. 180 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:02.039 This is really happening. 181 00:14:02.100 --> 00:14:09.000 Okay, Pertwiz era did visually and with with Joe Grant, but that we himself was always establishment, however much you want to say, the opposite. 182 00:14:09.059 --> 00:14:11.580 He was kindly, noblesse oblige Tory. 183 00:14:11.700 --> 00:14:16.139 We've now got a proper working class Trouton, as you say, Doctor Who's getting underneath. 184 00:14:16.139 --> 00:14:20.220 How could this not have been happening all the time? 185 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:22.559 I sort of wonder, this is what Doctor Who is supposed to do. 186 00:14:22.620 --> 00:14:30.419 It's surprising because neither say would gnaw John Nathan Turner wanted to be political in Doctor Who. 187 00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:36.720 Well, we know that JNT was actively apolitical because he was terrified, not for his own job. 188 00:14:36.779 --> 00:14:49.799 He wanted to get out, as we know, in fact, already announced that this was his last ever, but that they knew that the program would be stopped because just like the current Australian broadcasting, Commissariat that we've got right now. 189 00:14:49.860 --> 00:14:56.340 It's it's so loaded with Tory thinking that anything you've voice is going to bring wrath. 190 00:14:56.399 --> 00:15:04.799 Yeah, and it's constantly under pressure because it's publicly funded and you've got a conservative government that doesn't agree with providing services. 191 00:15:04.860 --> 00:15:05.759 It's interesting tax money. 192 00:15:05.820 --> 00:15:19.500 What this show is talking about is we've got a dogmatic, repressive government that's elected by half-hearted people, who simply want a quiet life and want a stern teacher, looking at Nathan when I say this, to sort things out for them. 193 00:15:20.220 --> 00:15:23.940 And look where that, look what that gets you, world. 194 00:15:24.059 --> 00:15:25.559 Yeah, death squads. 195 00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:29.580 This was a Britain that's actually turned against itself, knowingly and willingly. 196 00:15:29.639 --> 00:15:31.259 And I think that's what this story is all about. 197 00:15:31.980 --> 00:15:36.240 Yeah, this is a Britain that's actually said, including the working classes. 198 00:15:36.299 --> 00:15:37.259 It's every class. 199 00:15:37.320 --> 00:15:41.340 I think we've got to get rid of that word and just start using people or we're never going to get anywhere. 200 00:15:41.399 --> 00:15:43.980 It's turned against itself and proportionately. 201 00:15:44.100 --> 00:15:48.360 It's middle classes as well, so that Tory voters could pay less income tax themselves. 202 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:51.000 It was it was a real US thinking. 203 00:15:51.059 --> 00:15:58.500 We talk about this as being a post-Harvard School of Economics rationalisation in this neo-Cong world that we're in now, but it was actually very English. 204 00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:00.960 That should develop this and took this along. 205 00:16:01.019 --> 00:16:04.440 This, what we used to call Reaganomics at the time went out. 206 00:16:04.500 --> 00:16:09.600 But it became a very British thing and it was really about, we forget this now, and Brendan, you were too young. 207 00:16:09.659 --> 00:16:11.879 It was actually about lowering personal income tax. 208 00:16:11.940 --> 00:16:12.659 Look what happens. 209 00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:23.279 You get women walking around with toilet roll doily covers on their heads and massive choo-choo toy guns. kind of like the guns. 210 00:16:23.340 --> 00:16:27.179 You can have frocks and guns together because... 211 00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:28.679 It's super frog, isn't it? 212 00:16:28.740 --> 00:16:30.360 It's wonderfully, wonderfully frock. 213 00:16:30.419 --> 00:16:36.240 And in fact, I think part of the frocks and guns thing actually comes from this because... 214 00:16:36.299 --> 00:16:38.159 No, you did, because it's our podcast. 215 00:16:38.220 --> 00:16:41.279 Yes, okay. invented the internet as well. 216 00:16:42.419 --> 00:16:45.539 Human nature, that was one of yours. was mine. 217 00:16:45.899 --> 00:16:49.019 Dropped a piano on me. did it with brutal. 218 00:16:49.080 --> 00:17:14.039 This is kind of the frogs and guns thing because you've got that incredibly great scene, which will be referenced in next year's season where Sylvester goes up and just talks to gun wielding man. out of shooting and he does it by showing them that being a gun wielding sniper isn't a particularly brave or macho thing. 219 00:17:14.099 --> 00:17:20.819 In fact, it's an expression of cowardice and they can't look him in the eye and and shoot him. 220 00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:24.839 And there's the other thing here too, where no one is happy. 221 00:17:24.900 --> 00:17:38.279 The happiness patrol is enforcing happiness across, you know, the entire society, but literally no one at all in the entire society is happy, and you've got political discontent. 222 00:17:38.339 --> 00:17:39.480 Maybe Joseph C. 223 00:17:39.539 --> 00:17:41.220 I made quite personal noise then. 224 00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:44.700 I think the Candyman might be reasonably confused. 225 00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:46.019 No, he's always angry. 226 00:17:46.019 --> 00:17:48.779 He is very grumpy. 227 00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:49.799 I haven't even got to him yet. 228 00:17:49.859 --> 00:17:54.059 My favourite thing in one, you know, possibly this whole era as a villain. 229 00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:56.039 Yeah, oh, I think he's terrific. 230 00:17:56.160 --> 00:18:03.059 You know, there was there was that whole thing when he was conceived that he was a normal looking person, but all of us... 231 00:18:03.059 --> 00:18:12.180 All of a sudden he would take off his glasses and start chewing them and then, you know, he'd accidentally chop off a finger and pick it up and eat it and that would reveal he may look human bees actually made of candy. 232 00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:16.859 And it's like, I think it was John Nathan Turner who insisted, no, I would like a literal impression. 233 00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:21.000 And I think it's a great idea because it's giving us the Doctor Who monster thing. 234 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:24.000 And it's giving us something... 235 00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:27.960 But something normal sweets becomes something sinister. 236 00:18:28.019 --> 00:18:31.500 You know this has an antecedent, though, because this is... 237 00:18:31.500 --> 00:18:31.859 Oh, of course. 238 00:18:31.859 --> 00:18:37.200 There's umpty candy in 2000 AD. Is it Judge Dredd? 239 00:18:37.259 --> 00:18:44.039 Umpty candy is the product that they use that's so sweet that many humans can't digest it and live. 240 00:18:44.099 --> 00:18:46.740 It's their take on drugs and... 241 00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:48.240 Yeah, directly from that. 242 00:18:48.299 --> 00:18:50.279 But that's okay because it's of the now. 243 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:53.819 And it's Doctor Who being stupid. 244 00:18:53.880 --> 00:19:06.539 There must have been lots of fanboys who are utterly horrified by the scenes where the doctor sticks the candyman's marshmallow feet to the floor by pouring lemonade on it because it's silly. 245 00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:13.259 And we've had years and years of space corridors and aliens and Doctor Who is proper serious science fiction. 246 00:19:13.319 --> 00:19:17.460 And thank God, our long national nightmare of that is over. 247 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:27.539 But look, as a seven-year-old, I thought that was so clever and I understood it because, and this is going to sound stupid, but the things you remember as a kid. 248 00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:33.299 Something I remember as a kid is every time I got in the bath, the soap would be stuck to the bloody dish again. 249 00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:34.319 That's gorgeous. 250 00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:35.279 And clean. 251 00:19:35.339 --> 00:19:36.119 And clean. 252 00:19:36.180 --> 00:19:41.640 But I would have to, you know, there was a certain amount of water you had to use to get the soap off the thing. 253 00:19:41.700 --> 00:19:47.880 So the idea that lemon, it's not quite so lemonade would stick the candyman to the floor. 254 00:19:47.940 --> 00:19:49.319 Is that your word? 255 00:19:49.380 --> 00:19:49.920 That's my word. 256 00:19:50.220 --> 00:19:53.880 Plus, of course, my mum was a chemist. 257 00:19:53.940 --> 00:19:56.039 Mine's haberdashi. 258 00:19:56.099 --> 00:19:57.420 My dad was a histologist. 259 00:19:57.480 --> 00:20:00.180 So, you know, there was a lot of science in the house, a lot of science books. 260 00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:02.579 So I understood I understood chemical reactions. 261 00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:14.279 But that also taught me that idea. and and not to press your little self against the enamel bathtub for too long. 262 00:20:14.339 --> 00:20:14.940 Right. 263 00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:17.519 That a mental picture for every listener. 264 00:20:17.579 --> 00:20:25.259 It's getting back to like the heart and all thing. where he discusses how light refraction works, how phosphorescence works. 265 00:20:25.319 --> 00:20:29.759 But it's just done in a really simple way that is relevant to the story. 266 00:20:29.819 --> 00:20:33.480 And quite frankly, if people think that it is silly. 267 00:20:33.539 --> 00:20:37.380 Don't get me wrong, a man made of sweets, a robot made of sweets is silly. 268 00:20:37.500 --> 00:20:42.480 Susan would be the Scarovian conjure again, I bet. 269 00:20:42.539 --> 00:20:46.019 Tardis, why am I channelling Alpha Centauri? 270 00:20:46.500 --> 00:20:48.119 Actually. 271 00:20:48.299 --> 00:20:50.880 I'm stuck in the bath again. 272 00:20:50.940 --> 00:20:55.140 That hexapod could have had some real moments as well. couldn't she eat it? 273 00:20:55.200 --> 00:21:01.319 But, you know, it's a question of is something too silly for Doctor Who, and very little is too silly for Doctor Who. 274 00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:05.220 Not if it's really, really plum dark at the same time. 275 00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:07.500 This is the darkest doctor who's ever done. 276 00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:08.640 And the savages comes very close. 277 00:21:08.700 --> 00:21:13.980 Well, I don't think that we've ever had a villain that has literally killed half a 1000000 people. 278 00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:17.400 She's controlled the population down by 17%. 279 00:21:17.400 --> 00:21:24.779 And Trevor Sigma, which is, again, another great character has been counting the people who've disappeared and it comes in. 280 00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:30.359 It's just below half a 1000000 at the start of the story and just above it by the end. 281 00:21:30.420 --> 00:21:31.500 And he's there every 6 months. 282 00:21:31.559 --> 00:21:32.400 It's not 6 years. 283 00:21:32.460 --> 00:21:33.779 No, they actually say that. 284 00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:36.539 You think 6 quarters, 6 is, oh, okay, it's 6 years. 285 00:21:36.599 --> 00:21:37.200 No, 6 months. 286 00:21:37.259 --> 00:21:38.339 So yeah, she's really getting in there. 287 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:47.519 And you get that amazing moment where Trevor Signal says to the doctor, this is the name of the list of the people who've disappeared and the doctor takes it and throws it across the square. 288 00:21:47.579 --> 00:21:51.359 You know, it's not on it's not on an iPad and we're not scrolling through it. 289 00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:55.799 We get that very visual representation of this is how many people are dead. 290 00:21:55.920 --> 00:22:06.119 Do you know that the title of this was Crooked Smile, but as everybody in Cardinal says, it was always going to be happiness patrol, because you know that what, that was a take on, Joy Division. 291 00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:12.539 No, we all know Joy Division as being the Ian Curtis Northern band that was actually frickin' miserable. 292 00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:15.359 And then after Curtis took his own life, it became new order. 293 00:22:15.420 --> 00:22:19.200 You know where they got the title of Joy Division and indeed New Order? 294 00:22:19.259 --> 00:22:31.200 Joy Division, if you translate directly to the German, was the name. of the officers given to the female internees in Nazi concentration camps, who were used as sex slaves by the officers. 295 00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:32.880 That's how dark this show is. 296 00:22:33.059 --> 00:22:34.440 Yeah. 297 00:22:34.500 --> 00:22:38.460 And, and, you know, you get that line from, we've got Leslie Dunlop back. 298 00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:39.779 You get that line from Susan. 299 00:22:39.900 --> 00:22:41.400 Mrs. Bellboy. 300 00:22:41.460 --> 00:22:44.220 She's married to Bilbo at the time. 301 00:22:44.279 --> 00:22:44.819 Lovely couple. 302 00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:51.059 And he, um, yes, and he, um, and he, no, he encouraged her to come back to Doctor Who because he'd had such a lot of fun on greatest show. 303 00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:58.619 And yeah, well, she gets that wonderful line about how she, you know, how she's happy that she's going to die because she's been smiling and it doesn't mean anything. 304 00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:04.140 And once you add in that dimension of the women who were used in that way. 305 00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:06.420 Yeah, okay. 306 00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:08.220 It's a, it's a leap, but... 307 00:23:08.220 --> 00:23:10.740 Well, it's, it's, it's antecedents. 308 00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:11.519 You know what I mean? 309 00:23:11.579 --> 00:23:14.099 And something else about the story. 310 00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:15.779 It's the planet of women, again. 311 00:23:15.900 --> 00:23:16.799 Ladyland. 312 00:23:16.859 --> 00:23:17.640 Ladyland. 313 00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:19.740 I think England was obviously right all the time. 314 00:23:19.799 --> 00:23:21.240 How it's going to end up. 315 00:23:21.299 --> 00:23:22.019 That's it. 316 00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:22.859 Put women in charge. 317 00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:27.779 Yes, bras and guns. that's where I think the snipers are so good. 318 00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:31.019 And I've mentioned this, the boys have the crap guns, don't they? 319 00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:33.599 Very small and gray things, they are. the guns. 320 00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:36.599 Something I've mentioned many times on the podcast before, and I'll keep this brief. 321 00:23:36.660 --> 00:23:38.460 The legend of Zelda series. 322 00:23:38.519 --> 00:23:43.680 In that series of games, the villain comes from a race called the Jirudo. 323 00:23:43.740 --> 00:23:53.279 And the story with the Jirudo is they are all women, except one man is born every 7 generations who will lead them and in the... 324 00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:54.539 Exhaustively, I can. 325 00:23:54.599 --> 00:23:55.740 Or bugger. 326 00:23:55.799 --> 00:23:56.640 Well, that's the thing. 327 00:23:56.700 --> 00:23:58.559 You kind of look, mind you, we die happy. 328 00:23:58.619 --> 00:24:07.079 You kind of look at the try and look at the logic of this, and it's like, if you have a humanoid species, which presumably involve sexual reproduction... 329 00:24:07.079 --> 00:24:11.099 And parthenogenesis, much as they cast show leaders for Doctor Who. 330 00:24:11.099 --> 00:24:14.700 You know, how does Ladyland work? 331 00:24:15.539 --> 00:24:18.359 So here, even... 332 00:24:18.359 --> 00:24:19.440 That's the new name for this podcast. 333 00:24:19.500 --> 00:24:23.039 So here, even though it is, quote unquote, ladyland. 334 00:24:23.099 --> 00:24:35.880 You do see male characters, and you see, if you like, the sexism inherent in this culture, and it holds a mirror up to the sexism of our culture, you know, and... 335 00:24:35.940 --> 00:24:37.920 This is also about masks. 336 00:24:37.980 --> 00:24:39.240 No, you get to do Zelda. 337 00:24:39.299 --> 00:24:40.440 I get to do Oscar one. 338 00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:49.680 Because this is also about the false face and exactly what, um, Helena and Thatcher was doing at the same time. 339 00:24:49.740 --> 00:24:56.579 You know, in his essays, decay of lying, when he talks about masks being the obsession of image over underlying truth. 340 00:24:56.640 --> 00:25:00.420 So, and, and, um, I won't go into the quote again. 341 00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:07.140 But, you know, the mystery of the world is invisible, not the invisible only, a fool does not judge by appearances as well. 342 00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:16.740 But, uh, that was also picked up by Franz Kafka, in the castle and the trial, with the hero being Joseph K. Do you remember? 343 00:25:16.799 --> 00:25:18.240 Has anyone actually read those? 344 00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:21.960 Something fandom talked about a lot of the time when this came out? 345 00:25:22.019 --> 00:25:24.539 I read Metamorphosis years ago. 346 00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:25.980 That's amazingly good. 347 00:25:26.039 --> 00:25:31.500 But the trial and the, it's what the prisoner, the Patrick McGuin show was directly influenced by. 348 00:25:31.559 --> 00:25:33.599 But it's also very much this show. 349 00:25:33.660 --> 00:25:40.500 And that's where the sigma characters in the, and the, the, the, the, KSP is directly from Kafka, yeah. 350 00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:48.180 Yeah, and I like that the initials are explicitly ranks because... just in case you missed it. isn't that? 351 00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:49.980 I think we should, you have that at school though, don't you? 352 00:25:50.039 --> 00:25:52.380 Yes, we just called people by their initials. 353 00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:58.019 But yeah, you've got Harold F. being bumped down to... being bumped down to Harold V. 354 00:25:58.079 --> 00:26:04.980 I think my favourite member of the Happiness Patrol is some Priscilla P, who's guarding the waiting zone, but she's my principal. 355 00:26:05.039 --> 00:26:06.240 I captured her myself. 356 00:26:06.359 --> 00:26:08.279 She's so fascinated. 357 00:26:08.339 --> 00:26:15.720 These girls are all babes and it's wonderful that they were all dolly birds in the 60s and 70s themselves in lots of shows and that whole thing of the fuller's earth makeup. 358 00:26:15.779 --> 00:26:16.440 You know the story? 359 00:26:16.500 --> 00:26:18.359 Only Leslie Dunlop was allowed to be pretty. 360 00:26:18.420 --> 00:26:22.740 And the makeup artist who was... 361 00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:24.420 I think it was Dorkers. 362 00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:29.099 I could never say her name because it's like and the best round of Scrabble you've ever had. 363 00:26:29.099 --> 00:26:32.039 We can finally get all those letters onto the board and still win. 364 00:26:32.099 --> 00:26:34.440 Yeah, but she was using Fuller's Earth. 365 00:26:34.500 --> 00:26:41.640 Only, um, Georgina Hales make, um, she got a terrible rash because they couldn't get to talk to Chippitov. 366 00:26:41.819 --> 00:26:44.160 And I think with Georgina Hale. 367 00:26:44.220 --> 00:26:48.539 I have to mention for myself and James, she was a massive part of our childhoods in a show called teabag. 368 00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:50.400 Is anyone else seen that? 369 00:26:50.640 --> 00:26:54.299 It's not a term you can really use in polite company these days. 370 00:26:54.359 --> 00:26:55.200 No, I wouldn't Google it. 371 00:26:55.799 --> 00:26:58.740 Blossom's another one you shouldn't Google children. 372 00:26:58.799 --> 00:26:59.400 Blossom. 373 00:26:59.400 --> 00:26:59.880 Google that. 374 00:26:59.940 --> 00:27:03.539 It was an educational program with a sub Bonnie Langford child called Kelly Bryant. 375 00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:04.559 Sub-Bonnie Lang. 376 00:27:04.619 --> 00:27:05.640 Don't Google right. 377 00:27:05.819 --> 00:27:14.700 Running around and collecting artefacts from poorly constructed studio sets to make sure that the evil witch tea bag, who was obsessed with tea. 378 00:27:14.759 --> 00:27:16.559 She could make a cup of tea and see the future in it. 379 00:27:16.619 --> 00:27:18.119 We didn't get her hands on it. 380 00:27:18.180 --> 00:27:20.039 Georgina Hale played the 2nd tea bag. 381 00:27:20.099 --> 00:27:26.339 Elizabeth Estenson played the 1st one. and Elizabeth Estenson was very, was incredibly sinister. you know, when... 382 00:27:26.460 --> 00:27:30.779 Did you get a little tear in her corner and then, you know, she just leaked everywhere and they had to replace her? 383 00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:31.319 right. 384 00:27:31.380 --> 00:27:36.539 Whereas Georgina Hale brought a bit more comedy to it, but was still quite scary. 385 00:27:36.599 --> 00:27:40.740 And so terrifies the bugger. 386 00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:44.039 And so she was teabag at the same time as she was on this show. 387 00:27:44.099 --> 00:27:45.960 So I recognised her. 388 00:27:46.019 --> 00:27:55.380 You know, it was like, it was like kids in the early 80s being able to switch on the TV any night of the week and there's Peter Bloody Davidson on 5 shows, none of which are headed by women. 389 00:27:55.440 --> 00:27:58.319 Thank you, Peter. ask Janet Fielding about that. 390 00:27:58.559 --> 00:28:07.559 Yeah, so that was where I recognised Georgia, you know, Hale, who plays Daisy K, and essentially she plays teabag in the same manner as Helen A, really. 391 00:28:07.619 --> 00:28:13.380 So imagine Helen A chasing after a young child who's trying to collect the 7 silver spoons of Atarak. 392 00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:15.180 It was that kind of show. 393 00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:18.420 Say it 3 times it's a big finish podcast. 394 00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:20.039 You'd love it, Nathan. 395 00:28:20.099 --> 00:28:24.599 It's basically the keys of marinace every single day. with a different artefact. 396 00:28:25.619 --> 00:28:32.700 What I love about these characters is, as you say, they are just, you can tell they are actually desperately unhappy. 397 00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:34.980 All of them are incredibly unhappy. 398 00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:41.039 Priscilla's unhappy because she used to be really good at her job and now she's manning the waiting zone. 399 00:28:41.099 --> 00:28:46.079 Daisy Kay is unhappy because no one takes her seriously. 400 00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:55.799 Susan Q, Susie Q. Susan Q is unhappy because her friends have been disappearing and she can't say anything about it. 401 00:28:55.859 --> 00:28:58.140 Silas P is unhappy because he's only in the 1st episode. 402 00:28:58.200 --> 00:28:58.920 Yeah. 403 00:28:58.980 --> 00:29:01.200 And and again, you know, he... 404 00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:03.119 Because he's a man. 405 00:29:03.180 --> 00:29:10.559 His achievements aren't recognised because Helen A says, oh, you know, you found this many killjoys and he corrects her and she's like, no, I do the counting. 406 00:29:10.619 --> 00:29:15.599 And, you know, it mirrors what happens to women in our own. 407 00:29:15.660 --> 00:29:16.740 He wants to rise to the top. 408 00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:18.779 Not the very top, I hate. 409 00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:19.380 Yeah, exactly. 410 00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:24.539 Now, Richard, you alluded to this last season and it's something I only know secondhand. 411 00:29:24.599 --> 00:29:30.660 So I may start off, but please feel free to jump in and correct me because you're much older. 412 00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:32.880 But, you know, old. 413 00:29:32.940 --> 00:29:50.940 Okay, so long story short, for those of you who are to, for those of you who want to wear late 70s, early 80s, gay men in America and in other places, started dying from a mysterious new cancer. that was affecting the homosexual community later discovered to be HOV AIDS. 414 00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:57.779 And part of the response to this by the Reagan and Thatcher administration's was to essentially do nothing. 415 00:29:57.779 --> 00:30:04.319 And the public line was pretty much these people have no one to blame but themselves. 416 00:30:04.380 --> 00:30:09.599 Well, righteous indignation, and let's just throw in a little bit of Old Testament one upmanship here as well. 417 00:30:09.660 --> 00:30:12.539 The churchy folk were quite behind doing nothing. 418 00:30:12.599 --> 00:30:15.839 So it was Nancy Reagan, her best mate in the whole world. 419 00:30:15.900 --> 00:30:18.599 You would think, they certainly behave that way. 420 00:30:18.660 --> 00:30:19.319 Rob Hudson. 421 00:30:19.380 --> 00:30:28.980 I've got to tell you a lot of people at the time, um, had held very little flame for Rob Hudson because he was in the closet till the day he died, um, almost the day he died. 422 00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:41.819 But he also brought it to prominence and became quite vocal, or at least his friends did, that he was personally, you know, calling Nancy and writing her letters and saying, please intervene, please get these drug trials going. 423 00:30:41.880 --> 00:30:43.380 Please let us hand me a coach. 424 00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:44.640 She just never responded to any of them. 425 00:30:44.700 --> 00:30:48.420 And Reagan was famous for just simply not mentioning it. 426 00:30:48.420 --> 00:30:49.980 Yeah. never bringing it up. 427 00:30:50.039 --> 00:30:55.619 And then you have, you know, the government being forbidden from promoting homosexuality. 428 00:30:55.680 --> 00:31:02.579 Like, was it local authorities in Britain were forbidden from spending any money on the promotion of homosexuality at all. 429 00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:10.259 Yeah, and promotion being safe sex, promotion being, mentioning it exists, promotion being, presenting it in any way other than a moral deviancy. 430 00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:18.119 But it was also, it's very telling for the next catastrophe that we get and how far away is that they had no cure and they knew not how it passed. 431 00:31:18.180 --> 00:31:28.200 The 1st people to actually publicly touch an HIV AIDS patient was not a member of any political organisation. 432 00:31:28.259 --> 00:31:32.579 They were both people in the entertainment, industry, and indeed near royalty. 433 00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:40.680 Elizabeth Taylor and Princess Diana was actually the 1st people to touch and kiss HIV on camera. on camera. 434 00:31:40.740 --> 00:31:44.880 Because we really didn't know how it would, how it would transmit. 435 00:31:44.940 --> 00:31:48.299 And there was a very real fear, as with other viruses, that it could become airborne. 436 00:31:48.359 --> 00:31:51.059 And it was Australia, of all places. 437 00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:53.759 We had no idea, but friends of mine, poor kid, was one of them. 438 00:31:53.819 --> 00:31:56.460 He was at uni with me in 1st year, architecture and then ran away. 439 00:31:56.519 --> 00:32:01.680 They talked about this and he's been pause since, gosh, we were, you know, late teenagers and still with us, thank goodness. 440 00:32:01.740 --> 00:32:07.140 Australia was the 1st place to trial with condoms and actually issue them and saying this is the only way. 441 00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:18.180 We didn't know it wouldn't pass because the virus is so small and it was so very on it at the time that we assume we didn't know whether it would pass through a membrane, but as it turns out, it worked. 442 00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:18.900 Yeah. 443 00:32:18.900 --> 00:32:19.500 Yeah. 444 00:32:19.559 --> 00:32:23.579 So, yeah, that was only Australia doing that, not the UK and not the US. 445 00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:27.240 So here, like, why is this story talking about that? 446 00:32:27.299 --> 00:32:29.819 Because of Thatcher's clause 28. 447 00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:37.019 No, I mean, what is it about this story that makes it about HIV denialism, do you think? 448 00:32:37.140 --> 00:32:50.940 Well, the moment in particular for me is, um, the execution of the man by Fondant Suprise in episode one, who is Sai Town, who is an openly gay actor, and, yes, occasional Dalek. 449 00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:55.559 So he's not wearing a pink triangle badges is famously... 450 00:32:55.559 --> 00:32:56.519 No, he's wearing a pink shirt. 451 00:32:56.519 --> 00:33:00.720 Underneath a black chevron, which makes a triangle. 452 00:33:00.779 --> 00:33:03.420 And that pink goo, it's telling, isn't it? 453 00:33:03.539 --> 00:33:04.140 Yeah. 454 00:33:04.140 --> 00:33:09.240 And I think it is also because because of the campness of the story. 455 00:33:09.299 --> 00:33:12.299 Yeah, because he's emitted out of a giant tubular sphink. 456 00:33:12.359 --> 00:33:29.700 But for me, the moment is when he is executed for public grief because nothing was being done in the States or the UK about HIV, which meant if your boyfriend died from AIDS, Well, you shouldn't be sad about that. 457 00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:31.079 It's exactly what he deserved. 458 00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:39.359 Grief in the gay community was seen by the authority as, well, that that's not a legitimate emotion. 459 00:33:39.420 --> 00:33:40.980 Your love wasn't legitimate to begin with. 460 00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:49.740 So why should we acknowledge your grief and as much as the fight was on to get actual medical treatment happening. 461 00:33:49.799 --> 00:33:52.559 There was also the fight for that recognition of these are people who are dying. 462 00:33:53.160 --> 00:34:01.920 And that is part of what this story is about because people in the story aren't allowed to mourn the dead, smiling while my friends were dying. 463 00:34:01.980 --> 00:34:02.819 Yeah. 464 00:34:02.819 --> 00:34:03.359 You know. 465 00:34:03.420 --> 00:34:14.460 And it is, in fact, when Helen A loses someone and actually does her own ostentatious display of public grief that, you know, the story comes round. 466 00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:17.519 And Fifi only had life by having a fist up its backside. 467 00:34:17.579 --> 00:34:19.440 So I think there's something in it for all of us. 468 00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:33.719 Oh, I mean, what also brings that round and makes this story superior to the savages and the sun makers is that it shows its villain to be human. 469 00:34:33.780 --> 00:34:37.920 Even though the villain is Thatcher, and we should feel no sympathy for her whatsoever. 470 00:34:37.980 --> 00:34:40.860 It's just no sympathy for herself nor anyone else. 471 00:34:41.340 --> 00:34:41.579 Exactly. 472 00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:43.980 Fictionism, actually. 473 00:34:44.039 --> 00:34:48.539 That's the drug of choice that will bring down democracy, perfectionism. 474 00:34:48.599 --> 00:34:55.920 Whereas here, the doctor evokes feeling and sympathy for the devil. 475 00:34:55.980 --> 00:34:59.340 Because he has such a good character and a positive influence. 476 00:34:59.400 --> 00:35:00.780 He's not just saving the planet. 477 00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:02.099 He's saving. 478 00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:03.719 He's trying to say... 479 00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:07.800 I think he and A standby quite impassively while... 480 00:35:07.860 --> 00:35:08.280 This is the point. 481 00:35:08.340 --> 00:35:09.300 They're a mirror. 482 00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:11.039 So they are quite devilish. 483 00:35:11.099 --> 00:35:11.940 I'm with you on that. 484 00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:31.619 Because they nearly reflect back, but you could also say is a very Aristotelian and then Marcus Aurelian, and then it comes in with some New Testament writers as well that Nathan knows better than I, such as Paul, uh, that, to teach others to do good. 485 00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:39.719 One cannot educate or enforce because that kind of incaucation is just met with animosity. 486 00:35:39.780 --> 00:35:40.980 What you do is show. 487 00:35:41.039 --> 00:35:42.960 Show don't tell. 488 00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:52.260 I think the really telling thing is in episode one A says she wants to make them very, very unhappy and that's what they end up doing. 489 00:35:52.320 --> 00:36:01.019 And in fact, Helena's obsession with happiness actually makes her completely unable to deal with the revolution that takes place because she can't even accept that it's happening. 490 00:36:01.079 --> 00:36:05.760 An affectionist pursuit of an ideal that can never be... 491 00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:14.579 Yeah, it was her scene with Daisy Kay, where she's packing a case and she cannot admit that the whole thing has gone to hell because that would be being unhappy. 492 00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:22.320 That you was saying that of Pinochet at the time, a Chilean dictator who'd killed 1000000s of his own people, and she was offering him sanctum. 493 00:36:22.380 --> 00:36:38.400 Yeah, and the scene that leads up to Helena's broke down, where she's walking along and Sylvester steps out of the shadows, and you know, it's conducted with depth of field, and the shock on her face, the incomprehension of what went wrong. 494 00:36:38.699 --> 00:36:45.000 She's one of the most evil characters in Doctor Whoever because she genuinely believes she's doing the right thing. 495 00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:50.699 If you look at who we probably held up as the best villain from the Colin Baker era still. 496 00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:59.039 Still knows he's causing suffering and doesn't care, whereas Helen A genuinely thinks she is doing right by the people. 497 00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:03.420 She's not, of course, but the... 498 00:37:03.420 --> 00:37:14.820 She's pursuing the ideal that she's pursuing. with Justice Thatcher's father was a martinet that, you know, imposed strict discipline on her, on her little, oh, it's so Jack and John Collins, isn't it? 499 00:37:14.820 --> 00:37:15.840 Really, above the shop. 500 00:37:15.900 --> 00:37:17.639 So she grew up, yeah. 501 00:37:17.699 --> 00:37:29.940 Yeah, but okay, I get I get what you're saying about, like, the doctor and A standby and force her to be unhappy, but at the same time, I think they stand by and allow her to be unhappy. 502 00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:32.519 She needs to go through that emotion herself. 503 00:37:32.579 --> 00:37:34.079 Unlike this podcast. 504 00:37:34.500 --> 00:37:39.539 And the point there is, of course, that Ace actually wants to step in and help. 505 00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:41.820 Ace says, can we do something? 506 00:37:41.820 --> 00:37:44.519 And it's the doctor who says, we've done it. 507 00:37:44.579 --> 00:37:45.900 This is what we've done. 508 00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:54.420 And I think it's also important because there are there are a few Doctor Who stories where the villain sort of gets their comeuppance and the doctor's not there. 509 00:37:54.480 --> 00:37:58.500 You know, the doctor sends them off with a bomb or something, graph indicate. 510 00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:05.460 This is a story where the doctor stays to watch the consequence of his actions upon the villain. 511 00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:08.579 He does it with Davros in remembrance of the Daleks as well. 512 00:38:08.699 --> 00:38:14.639 He will do it in Silver Nemesis, and he will do it in the greatest show in the galaxy. 513 00:38:14.940 --> 00:38:18.539 And I think that's a theme emerging here. 514 00:38:18.599 --> 00:38:31.739 Yeah, well, I think he's, I think he's teaching Ace, the importance of, you know, if you're going to take an action, you have to stand by and see the result of that, you have to accept responsibility for that. 515 00:38:31.800 --> 00:38:45.239 I wanted to say that this story has my favourite cliffhanger in the entire classic series and that's the 0 dear. doesn't look like Daphne S went down too well now, does it, Cliffhanger, which I just think is brilliant. 516 00:38:45.300 --> 00:38:46.739 It's so clever. 517 00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:55.139 It's got, I think Priscilla P comes in and paints RIP over Daphne's painting. 518 00:38:55.199 --> 00:38:57.960 And then you get the music, of course, sells it. 519 00:38:58.019 --> 00:38:59.460 The framing of the shot. 520 00:38:59.519 --> 00:39:02.519 You've got Sylvester standing there. 521 00:39:02.579 --> 00:39:07.679 You've got Ace helplessly just trapped in a photograph, you know, in peril. 522 00:39:07.739 --> 00:39:15.599 It's just word peril, like the Dr. Mabus or M, as it was remade by Fritz Slang, which was an example of... 523 00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:17.460 Weimar film. 524 00:39:17.579 --> 00:39:19.559 I thought you were going to say that. 525 00:39:19.619 --> 00:39:21.360 No, it actually is. 526 00:39:21.480 --> 00:39:22.980 It's a similar scene. 527 00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:24.659 And yes, very much so. 528 00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:36.360 And they're very Weimar, dark, dark, dark humour because we've just gone through a wall with soldiers returned with missing limbs and such like, and that's kind of what this all felt like every era is like this, if we just acknowledge it. 529 00:39:36.780 --> 00:39:49.920 Speaking of episode endings, I really like the final scene, but so of course we have the emotional ending, which is Helene with Fifi, but then we have the scene with Daisy K and Priscilla P repainting the TARDIS. 530 00:39:49.980 --> 00:40:04.619 And suddenly the pipe people, who, again, we haven't really talked about this, but there's an imperialism as well, that this society is built on excluding a whole class of people and taking their staff, the pipe people. 531 00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:05.880 Can we can we name check them? 532 00:40:05.940 --> 00:40:06.960 Alpidi. 533 00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:09.360 LPD, if you want to put it that way. 534 00:40:09.420 --> 00:40:12.360 ALP-I-D-A-E. That what they're called in the book. 535 00:40:12.420 --> 00:40:13.079 Oh, okay. 536 00:40:13.139 --> 00:40:16.320 They're, you know, an indigenous population that's being oppressed. 537 00:40:16.380 --> 00:40:17.940 Children with gruff voices. 538 00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:20.400 I think they were really cool. by little kitties. 539 00:40:20.460 --> 00:40:21.119 Gordon. 540 00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:27.000 But they get brought in. 541 00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:30.059 And so you've got this sort of motley group of people who are... 542 00:40:30.059 --> 00:40:32.219 Tiny rodent like Adrian Edmondson. 543 00:40:32.460 --> 00:40:39.000 But a group of people, a strange group of people who are now going to go off and try and build a proper society. 544 00:40:39.059 --> 00:40:41.039 I think it's it's nice. 545 00:40:41.159 --> 00:40:48.300 Yeah, and Susan Q and Earl Sigma, who we haven't really mentioned another black character in Doctor Who, who is a medical student. 546 00:40:48.300 --> 00:40:50.340 And not with a trumpet. 547 00:40:50.400 --> 00:40:52.619 I think we all have been relieved. was written. 548 00:40:52.679 --> 00:40:59.099 And actually plays the harmonica very well, you know, although they don't actually use it, he can actually play it, but he wasn't used. 549 00:40:59.099 --> 00:41:00.000 Oh, yeah, yeah. 550 00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:01.260 Well, it's not him playing it. 551 00:41:01.320 --> 00:41:02.940 God, it's gorgeous, isn't it? 552 00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:03.599 It's beautiful. 553 00:41:03.659 --> 00:41:08.760 And it's also very New Orleans, the set design reflects the... 554 00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:15.480 And he and the doctor communicate with each other across town using jazz, which massages, massages next week as well. 555 00:41:15.539 --> 00:41:18.659 But yeah, he and Susie Q walk off arm in arm at the end. 556 00:41:18.840 --> 00:41:25.860 They do that fabulous film noir scene when they're standing over Priscilla P tied up in the waiting zone. 557 00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:26.460 Remember? 558 00:41:26.519 --> 00:41:26.699 Yes. 559 00:41:26.699 --> 00:41:31.139 Helena's switches on the screen and it's fabulously noirage. 560 00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:32.760 Yeah, absolutely. 561 00:41:32.820 --> 00:41:41.880 And that last scene really embraces the doctor's concept of you cannot have happiness without sadness because Priscilla and Daisy K are making jokes. 562 00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:44.760 I'm glad you are happy, Daisy. 563 00:41:44.820 --> 00:41:51.480 The doctor and Ace are happy and they're repainting the TARDIS and Susie Q wanders off with Earl. 564 00:41:51.539 --> 00:41:55.619 So even though there has been all this sadness, there is, then happiness. 565 00:41:55.679 --> 00:41:59.519 When the drones come into Forum Square and start partying. 566 00:41:59.579 --> 00:42:04.619 They are genuinely happy because they've been told, actually, there is a revolution happening and they're like, finally. 567 00:42:04.739 --> 00:42:16.800 You know, even though they've come there out of a place of sadness, it becomes happy, and of course, the doctor points out, hey, twisted logic, you're the killjoy is now Happiness Patrol, because you're trying to stop a party. 568 00:42:16.860 --> 00:42:20.340 It's again a very British thing we touched on that in the last podcast. 569 00:42:20.579 --> 00:42:24.119 Yes, it's by not saying what you intend. 570 00:42:24.179 --> 00:42:25.019 Yeah. 571 00:42:25.019 --> 00:42:26.340 A nod and a smile. 572 00:42:26.460 --> 00:42:31.139 I mean, at the end of the last story as well in that funeral scene, Ace says, did we do good? 573 00:42:31.139 --> 00:42:33.059 and the doctor doesn't say yes or no. 574 00:42:33.119 --> 00:42:36.480 He just says, look, well, we just have to see how the situation bears out. 575 00:42:36.539 --> 00:42:45.719 And they do leave after that, but, you know, you kind of think off camera, they had to have talked to Mike's mum and they've spoken to Mike's friends and they've gotten to know Mike's friends. 576 00:42:45.780 --> 00:42:57.900 They have stayed in the aftermath, but when they leave is the personal and private moment where his family are mourning, they allow them their space to mourn because they are outside of that. 577 00:42:57.960 --> 00:43:01.739 They are outsiders and that's what the doctor and companion always are. 578 00:43:01.800 --> 00:43:07.079 This is why I don't get about the show at the time and in fact, fandom now and the actors now. 579 00:43:07.139 --> 00:43:10.679 I'll just say it here because we're in the podcast and we're talking about this being the queer story. 580 00:43:10.679 --> 00:43:27.480 And, you know, we've got that arc in this season, is that Desley McClendon, who was a secondary star in Follies, the Sondheim Follies at the time and plays Mike and Mike Smith in this one, was POS, and did die not that long afterwards. 581 00:43:27.539 --> 00:43:31.679 And, you know, and pretty roughly, obviously, as well, because there weren't the drugs to treat him. 582 00:43:31.739 --> 00:43:33.659 No one references it. 583 00:43:33.719 --> 00:43:45.119 They just say, oh, they, even on, you know, on the disk interviews, even stuff, conventions and everything else that I've looked at, it's never mentioned that he died of HIV AIDS. 584 00:43:45.179 --> 00:43:48.780 It's not even mentioned that he was queer because, oh, he's dead, we can't talk about that. 585 00:43:48.840 --> 00:43:51.119 Yeah, we bloody should be talking about that. 586 00:43:51.179 --> 00:43:58.559 And I don't think he would appreciate that you're not talking about that because there seems to be the whole shame thing. 587 00:43:58.619 --> 00:44:00.719 You die because of a sexually transmitted disease. 588 00:44:00.780 --> 00:44:05.760 No, you died because you are a certain type of person who've had a certain type of life. 589 00:44:05.760 --> 00:44:08.159 And it isn't exactly like yours, but you know what? 590 00:44:08.219 --> 00:44:09.000 You're next in line. 591 00:44:09.059 --> 00:44:14.400 So I wonder how much of you're not agreeing to discuss me. 592 00:44:14.460 --> 00:44:22.199 I'm speaking now as McClindon and my passion for having lost friends at this age at this time when this was going out, actually. 593 00:44:22.679 --> 00:44:29.760 I'm really not happy about the fact that when as fandom, and indeed as show people who are in the show. 594 00:44:29.820 --> 00:44:32.159 Don't mention this and don't discuss this. 595 00:44:32.219 --> 00:44:35.340 Well, that's all we've got, all we've got is podcast now to talk about. 596 00:44:35.460 --> 00:44:48.059 Well, that's why even though, as I said earlier, I didn't live through this, you know, I was I was born at the height of it, but when I was at university and I was going to queer student conferences. 597 00:44:48.119 --> 00:44:53.400 Where I learned so much about this, there was a documentary screened at one of these conferences. 598 00:44:53.460 --> 00:44:56.760 I can't remember it and, you know... 599 00:45:00.179 --> 00:45:10.139 So we had an auditorium full of uni students, and about half of them left during the course of documentary because they didn't see how it related to them. 600 00:45:10.139 --> 00:45:12.900 And it was about the AIDS crisis. 601 00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:16.380 And I remember at the end, I haven't seen him for many years. 602 00:45:16.380 --> 00:45:22.980 A young man who was big in the Sydney leather scene at the time got up and he just said, I want to say to all the people who've stayed, thank you. 603 00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:26.579 I accept that a lot of people our age don't know much about this. 604 00:45:26.639 --> 00:45:28.500 This is my address book. 605 00:45:28.559 --> 00:45:30.119 So this was before smartphones. 606 00:45:30.179 --> 00:45:31.139 He said, this is my address book. 607 00:45:31.199 --> 00:45:35.880 This is my 3rd address book in 10 years because I keep having to throw them away. 608 00:45:36.300 --> 00:45:38.340 That was happening, yeah. 609 00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:46.320 Yeah, and that's why whenever I talk about this story, I am so passionate about bringing this up, even though I didn't experience it, it makes me so angry. 610 00:45:46.440 --> 00:45:49.739 And also, you know, I know, I have friends who go through. 611 00:45:49.800 --> 00:45:50.760 I have a partner who went through it. 612 00:45:50.820 --> 00:45:51.599 Yeah, yeah. 613 00:45:51.599 --> 00:45:58.019 You know, and I know that finding out about it after the fact I'm being angry about it after the fact is not the same as having lived through it. 614 00:45:58.079 --> 00:46:08.760 But I think it is so important that we don't forget what it was like then, the way the people who walked out of the documentary, they had the opportunity to learn what it was like then. 615 00:46:08.760 --> 00:46:10.320 And they've kind of gone. 616 00:46:10.380 --> 00:46:13.559 I'm 18, I'm 19. as I was at the time as well. 617 00:46:13.619 --> 00:46:14.820 It's not simply an age thing. 618 00:46:15.300 --> 00:46:17.519 This doesn't apply to me. 619 00:46:17.579 --> 00:46:26.519 And it's like, yeah, okay, maybe it doesn't apply to you now, but be grateful it doesn't apply to you now, because all these people had to suffer to make sure it doesn't apply to you now. 620 00:46:26.639 --> 00:46:30.179 But yeah, that's why I am so passionate about the story. 621 00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:34.980 That's why I would probably say it is my favourite Sylvester story because not only is it a good narrative in itself. 622 00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:36.300 It is social commentary. 623 00:46:36.539 --> 00:46:44.699 It is telling us to make our world a better place without punishing people who are not necessarily like, quote unquote, us. 624 00:46:44.760 --> 00:46:47.579 And because it shows us what we do and who we are. 625 00:46:47.639 --> 00:47:00.599 And do you know the, and the other reason that I really love it is because it isn't just about an internal or internalised grief, which is always should be, and what the AIDS crisis was also about showing us, that this is also happening under every regime. 626 00:47:00.659 --> 00:47:02.219 We're having it happening right now. 627 00:47:02.280 --> 00:47:04.500 We don't talk about Rwanda, we don't talk, you know. 628 00:47:04.559 --> 00:47:09.360 We don't, Bosnia and and sorry, Nova at the time was exactly this kind of thing. 629 00:47:09.420 --> 00:47:20.340 So I really, really love, I think the thing, the pinnacle that they've achieved is talking about personal grief within the UK and within Commonwealth at the time. is a mirror of what we were also sanctioning. 630 00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:23.760 Indeed, allowing in these other nations. 631 00:47:23.820 --> 00:47:27.900 Which is simply a dismissal of suffering and dismissal of death. 632 00:47:28.019 --> 00:47:32.280 And that's the great cultural point that we need to start owning. 633 00:47:32.340 --> 00:47:42.420 And this show, a kids show that no one was watching is being more of the moral arbiter and the greatest voice for consciousness that we were getting. 634 00:47:42.480 --> 00:47:43.980 God, is Doctor Who really this good? 635 00:47:44.039 --> 00:47:44.940 Maybe it actually is. 636 00:48:01.019 --> 00:48:12.119 Well, dear listeners, paradise is a bit too pink for us, so we're taking off for a nice, a nice summer concert with Courtney Pine, do come back next week for Silver Nemesis. 637 00:48:12.179 --> 00:48:16.260 In the meantime, don't forget, check our show notes for a link to vote for our Colin Baker commentary. 638 00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:18.599 Your choices are Mark of the Rani. 639 00:48:18.659 --> 00:48:24.480 Revelation of the Daleks, the Mysterious Planet, or Terror of the Vervoids, so do make sure you vote for one of those. 640 00:48:24.539 --> 00:48:26.519 Meanwhile, over on Bond Finger. 641 00:48:26.579 --> 00:48:30.780 We are about to get 3 quarters of the way through the Pierce Brosnan era of James Bond. 642 00:48:30.840 --> 00:48:34.619 Next week, we'll be releasing our commentary for the world is not enough. 643 00:48:34.679 --> 00:48:40.380 With Pierce Brosnan, Sophie Marso, Denise Richards and Robert Carlo, and Robbie Coltrane is actually quite a good one, in my opinion. 644 00:48:40.440 --> 00:48:42.000 That's over on bondfinger.com. 645 00:48:42.059 --> 00:48:46.139 Bondfinger on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at Bondfinger cast on Twitter. 646 00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:54.000 We, of course, are flight through entirety.sexy, flight through entirety on Apple Podcasts and Facebook and at FTE podcast on Twitter. 647 00:48:54.059 --> 00:48:57.179 Until next week, may your husband not run away with your chief confectioner. 648 00:48:57.239 --> 00:48:58.260 Thank you very much for listening. 649 00:48:58.320 --> 00:48:58.619 Good night. 650 00:48:58.679 --> 00:48:59.280 Good night. 651 00:48:59.340 --> 00:49:00.659 It's a sticky end, isn't it? 652 00:49:00.719 --> 00:49:01.019 Good night. 653 00:49:19.139 --> 00:49:27.059 That was fight their entirety with Nathan B, Brendan J, and Richard S. Theme arrangement by Cameron L, logo designed by Anthony W. 654 00:49:27.119 --> 00:49:32.699 This episode, this neocon world, was recorded on the 22nd of July, 2017. 655 00:49:32.940 --> 00:49:35.400 The next episode will be released on August 13. 656 00:49:39.119 --> 00:49:46.980 If you want to make us very, very unhappy, just hold a $120 million optional vote on whether this story exists or not. 657 00:49:53.039 --> 00:49:55.019 Okay, so I think that's done. 658 00:49:55.079 --> 00:49:56.340 Hate the cars. 659 00:49:57.599 --> 00:50:00.119 Chris Clough can direct traffic. 660 00:50:00.179 --> 00:50:03.300 I think we've said that before about Ron Jones. 661 00:50:03.599 --> 00:50:07.980 They said slow moving vehicles in a tiny studio. 662 00:50:10.380 --> 00:50:13.019 Sophie was only allowed half a litre a day.