WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 12:20:28

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flightthrough Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast to When We're On For Make Programs

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that the Human Physiology is not equipped to bear the pleasure

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of.

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I'm Brandon.

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I'm Nathan I'm a half sucked all sort for this one.

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We're learning all about population control from Helen A. It's the

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happiness patrol.

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Well, she realises this isn't completely the wrong podcast order.

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It's meant to be the fourth of the series.

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I know.

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You know what?

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The badge.

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If any of you want to argue, the badge.

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Well, I actually suggested that there was a big finish spinoff

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series called The Earring Chronicles that explains how flower

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child's earring gets on on Sophie's thing and silver nemesis.

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I say that, because there'll be 4 series of 4 stories each.

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Yeah, yeah.

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You just need to say it 3 times.

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The earring Chronicles, the earring Chronicles, the earring

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Chronicles.

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Wow, it exists.

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Check out bigfinish.com.

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With Jacqueline Pierce as the earring.

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So, yeah.

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Actually, this seems like a good time as any to discuss the

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proposed order, a story.

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So remembrance of the Daleks was meant to start the season

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followed by Greater Show in the Galaxy. followed by Silver Nemesis

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followed by this, and what scuppered that was, coverage of the

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Olympics, which pushed...

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Yep, which pushed, which pushed Doctor Who's broadcast back by one

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week.

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JNT still wanted Silver Nemesis to start on the 23rd of November

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meaning with remembrance going first, and Silver Nemesis having to

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start on that date, there was only a 3 week slot available.

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So Happiness Patrol had to go in there.

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Greatest Show had to go last, which we'll discuss that continuity

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terror later in the season.

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But yes, here we have a three-part story, the studio-based three

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parter, again directed by Chris Clough.

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Chris Timbleclough.

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I really love the Australian broadcast, if we can all just talk

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about our youth again when we 1st saw this.

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What's his name?

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Sorry, we had a...

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We were name checking Andrew Hodson all through this.

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Not Stephen Watts's face because he almost gets on the radio.

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Even though we've been doing this before you were even fetally

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engaged.

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We love you.

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Richard may not, but we love you.

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It's not going on the cut my own floor.

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Yeah, it was a really lovely order for the show because we haven't

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got there yet, but the wandabee, the almost been final scene of

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this story, would have been an extraordinary going out.

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Happiness was...

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No, Helen A and Fifi.

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Oh, yes, God.

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Yeah, let's jump ahead.

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Imagine that as the very final moment of this season. would have

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said a lot.

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It's actually just about my favourite scene of the classic era.

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It really, really is extraordinary. and I was tearing up watching

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it when we'd live.

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We've had personal experience because you're savage marauding

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hounds.

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That's it.

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Like, I, you know, does the dog die.com, which is a website you

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can go to to check whether the dog in a film dies so that you

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can...

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They've already covered the reboot of canine voice by John Leason

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haven't they?

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Not to give any way anything away.

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It's dead by the 1st episode.

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And obviously Mark of the Rani.

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And obviously Marley and me just comes with, no, why are you even

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considering this?

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A dog's a dog's purpose where a whole bunch of dogs die one after

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the other spoiler alert. canine company.

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But I just think it's amazingly brilliantly beautiful.

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And a story that had been really political.

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Really, yeah, becomes really personal.

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It becomes about this one woman's, uh, you know, inability to

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properly understand about the relationship between love and grief

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that, um, that you can't love someone without paying for it, that

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every relationship ends and grief is part of the process of loving

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anything.

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You know, it's a stupid puppet.

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The puppet is hilarious, like fabulously funny.

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No, no, no, I know, but it's a really good little point.

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It is a good pub.

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It's good for the time, you know.

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Oh, it's still good.

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It's just not well lit, but we've been they've still got this

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thing quite dark, considering.

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You know, I would not say that the puppetry in the never-ending

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story, which had multimillions of dollars poured into it, was that

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much better. more working on that as well.

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There are some great snarls where Fifi bears, it's teeth at the

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end of a scene and growls.

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And like, I think it's really super funny and having her, you know

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Fifi's been eating far too many jockeys lately.

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Basically, Nigel Lawson.

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I mean, I wonder his daughter is obsessed with sweetie things

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after this, yeah.

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But it really is extremely beautiful, I think.

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And the music, like Dominic Glynn's music just sells it and then

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the, yeah, can we go with a pulls up from, it's a beautiful shock

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composition with her crying and Sylvester and Sophie Watch.

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And what's wonderful about that music.

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Again, it's Dominic Glynn, and I'm gonna say this every time we

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mention Dominic Glynn, Dominic.

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Thank you for allowing us to use your music and Time

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Incorporated.

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What a zinger of a story.

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But the thing is, that sort of crescendo of music has been fed all

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the way through the story.

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It's the tunes Earl is playing.

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There's little tiny bits of it throughout and then it just becomes

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this big thing.

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I love Sophie's reaction, or rather, Ace's reaction to Helen A

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crying.

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She genuinely looks sorry for her.

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Like, Professor, can't we do anything for this horrible dictator

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who's murdered?

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over half a 1000000 people.

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Yeah, if the census is to be believed.

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Exactly.

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We have Pinoche and Chatesque doing exactly the same thing at the

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time.

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And Thatcher, in fact, why?

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selling, you know, at the beginning of the arms.

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The reason that Britain's money went up was not because she fired

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every single minor in every working class man.

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Of course, she was nicely flirting with every Saudi prince she

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could find and flogging him every bit of tech she could get a

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hands on.

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Not only that, but the suppression of public grief from a certain

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sector of the community.

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Ah, and we will be touching on that later on before.

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Before we get to that, can we stay with exposition and

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construction of this story and the major influence of this little

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film?

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Because it actually is a film in 3 parts.

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Dominic Glynn is a big fan of Sir Carol Reed and Austin Wells.

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And Carol Reed's a big fan of a certain period of German

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filmmaking.

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And there's an extraordinary film called The Third Man.

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With awesome Wells, right at the very end.

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It's mostly Joseph Cotton wandering around trying to find.

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Or some laws.

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Have you watched it?

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It's on Stan.

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You can see it for nothing.

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Um, it's a gorgeous film.

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It's film wire at, at, at Britain's greatest, um, with his, um

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zither music.

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So it's got that lovely Hungarian kind of beautiful.

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It's all filmed around Budapest, but both Chris Koff and Dominic

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and everyone else said, we want to do this as a remake of the 3rd

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man.

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We want to shoot it in black and white.

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Have a look.

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There's an image that we'll put up.

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The very 1st moment when you get, um, the actress who's been in

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everything.

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Daphne Oxenbold.

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That's the one as, um, it's a cool joy, and it's, it's almost the

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it's beautiful, but it's, it is almost a frame from the, the use

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of the, of the crane, so it does come from a certain period of

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German filmmaking.

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And yeah, we don't often see crane shots for dramatic scenes in

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Doctor Who.

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There was a lot...

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Yeah, because, yeah, there was a lot in the early 80s Doctor Who

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season 18, um, Peter's seasons where the crane would be used to

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sort of show off the the main set the 1st time we see it.

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And cleavage.

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But here, you know, here, you know, we do we do get that a few

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times and there is lots of what are known as Dutch tilts or Batman

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angles with the frame being tilted.

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What I noticed when I was last watching it is, yeah, they weren't

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allowed to shoot it in black and white as they'd hoped.

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But the set design is still very monochrome.

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But did you notice they've actually painted the sets in honey

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greys?

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So the only things that are colour to the characters and the

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items.

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Yeah, and just occasional bits of pink and yellow.

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Everything's pink and yellow with the exception of things in the

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candy kitchen.

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And the planet.

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Well, the planet's pink and yellow.

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Exactly. and yellow.

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Um, but it's incredibly effective and it sort of shows what Frank

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Miller was doing in comic books for us.

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Yeah, with Batman new one.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Killing Batman killing joke at the same time, yeah.

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Yeah, sort of not and, you know, not exactly monochrome, but

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strong use of individual colours to draw the eye within the

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frame.

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And that's what happens here.

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And I think it really helps that Sophie's costume is mostly

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black.

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And Sylvester's costume is mostly yellows or shades of yellow.

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There are reds in there, but you know, he's got a cream jacket

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he's got his yellow pullover and his brown check trousers.

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So they fit in as well.

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Imagine if this had been Perry and 60.

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And we can say 60 because you know who coined that term?

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Colin Bay.

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No, not in my presence.

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Did he really did?

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He calls himself that every bloody interview he does.

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Deal with it, Nathan.

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I can't see how this story would have worked with the previous.

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No, they would have shot Perry on the spot, the happiness patrol.

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But it wouldn't work.

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That's massive strontium 90 of whining right there, isn't it?

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He's too big.

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He attracts too much attention to himself.

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And this is a story where the doctor lurks like Trout and quietly

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working to overthrow the government.

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And there is a lot of him just going from place to place and

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setting things. actually in motion. in the 3rd man.

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Yeah, and something else this reminds me of in terms of Doctor Who

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is actually the sun makers.

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Well, it's funny that, because Sunmakers influenced a lot of

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comics. certainly Judge Dredd and the writers, you know, nodded to

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Doctor Who with that era.

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Sunmakers Judge Dred, 2000 AD, this lot, cart melt.

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It's just, it's comfortably full circle.

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I think I think it's a tradition, um, which is started by the

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savages, actually, where the doctor comes to a society that is set

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up to illustrate political oppression in some way, a society that

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that's characteristics work on a sort of allegorical level, and he

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overthrows it in one night.

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And that's very definitely his mission when he arrives.

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It's the beginning of a night.

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It all takes place over the course of one single night.

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And by the end of the story, he's overthrown the government.

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I think the savages does it beautifully. beautifully, that's

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another one we were going to talk about as being an antecedent of

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this. yes Yeah, well, I think so. and it's a society where, you

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know, allegorically a group of people are sucking the life out of

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another group of people in order to prosper.

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So it's about imperialism or the convention circuit.

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And um, and this one, the happiness thing where, where unhappiness

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is a code for political dissent, the idea of disagreeing, of being

253
00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:44.220
unhappy with the status quo is criminalised.

254
00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:46.620
Right at the point of section 28.

255
00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:47.759
Yeah, yeah.

256
00:12:47.820 --> 00:12:48.480
No, exactly.

257
00:12:48.539 --> 00:12:53.100
So this is Andrew Cartmel attempting to fulfil his initial aim

258
00:12:53.100 --> 00:12:57.000
which is to overthrow Thatcher's government by having Helen A, who

259
00:12:57.000 --> 00:12:58.200
is clearly Thatcher.

260
00:12:58.259 --> 00:13:01.440
She's practised media kind of performance.

261
00:13:01.500 --> 00:13:03.840
Some of the lines. of the ones they cut out.

262
00:13:03.899 --> 00:13:07.740
And how about Sheila Hancock, who's since gone on to completely

263
00:13:07.740 --> 00:13:12.419
bault face, but at the time, was so with it with this narrative

264
00:13:12.419 --> 00:13:13.379
and the idea of it.

265
00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:14.580
She's wonderful.

266
00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:19.019
I think she's superb and perfectly cast and really bites the part

267
00:13:19.019 --> 00:13:19.500
doesn't she?

268
00:13:19.559 --> 00:13:21.299
She really, my favourite.

269
00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:23.159
She really gets in there.

270
00:13:23.220 --> 00:13:27.059
I think we spent months and months just quoting lines from each

271
00:13:27.059 --> 00:13:28.200
other all the time.

272
00:13:29.100 --> 00:13:31.139
Strawberry, madam.

273
00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:34.500
You know, it's it's really, really tremendous.

274
00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:39.179
It does have some other antecedents in things like there's a Monty

275
00:13:39.179 --> 00:13:43.919
Python story about Happy Valley where wise King Otto had had all

276
00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:48.000
of the unhappy people put to death many years earlier along with

277
00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:49.259
the trade union leaders.

278
00:13:50.220 --> 00:13:54.000
Anyone with any personal problems would be prosecuted under the

279
00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:58.259
Happiness Act. Doctor Who hasn't been this of the now, this with

280
00:13:58.259 --> 00:14:01.019
it and down with kids since the 60s.

281
00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:02.039
This is really happening.

282
00:14:02.100 --> 00:14:05.940
Okay, Pertwiz era did visually and with with Joe Grant, but that

283
00:14:05.940 --> 00:14:08.460
we himself was always establishment, however much you want to say

284
00:14:08.460 --> 00:14:09.000
the opposite.

285
00:14:09.059 --> 00:14:11.580
He was kindly, noblesse oblige Tory.

286
00:14:11.700 --> 00:14:15.000
We've now got a proper working class Trouton, as you say, Doctor

287
00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:16.139
Who's getting underneath.

288
00:14:16.139 --> 00:14:20.220
How could this not have been happening all the time?

289
00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:22.559
I sort of wonder, this is what Doctor Who is supposed to do.

290
00:14:22.620 --> 00:14:27.720
It's surprising because neither say would gnaw John Nathan Turner

291
00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:30.419
wanted to be political in Doctor Who.

292
00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:34.259
Well, we know that JNT was actively apolitical because he was

293
00:14:34.259 --> 00:14:36.720
terrified, not for his own job.

294
00:14:36.779 --> 00:14:39.059
He wanted to get out, as we know, in fact, already announced that

295
00:14:39.059 --> 00:14:43.139
this was his last ever, but that they knew that the program would

296
00:14:43.139 --> 00:14:46.440
be stopped because just like the current Australian broadcasting

297
00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:49.799
Commissariat that we've got right now.

298
00:14:49.860 --> 00:14:54.899
It's it's so loaded with Tory thinking that anything you've voice

299
00:14:54.899 --> 00:14:56.340
is going to bring wrath.

300
00:14:56.399 --> 00:14:59.100
Yeah, and it's constantly under pressure because it's publicly

301
00:14:59.100 --> 00:15:02.460
funded and you've got a conservative government that doesn't agree

302
00:15:02.460 --> 00:15:04.799
with providing services.

303
00:15:04.860 --> 00:15:05.759
It's interesting tax money.

304
00:15:05.820 --> 00:15:09.419
What this show is talking about is we've got a dogmatic, repressive

305
00:15:09.419 --> 00:15:13.620
government that's elected by half-hearted people, who simply want

306
00:15:13.620 --> 00:15:17.879
a quiet life and want a stern teacher, looking at Nathan when I

307
00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:19.500
say this, to sort things out for them.

308
00:15:20.220 --> 00:15:23.940
And look where that, look what that gets you, world.

309
00:15:24.059 --> 00:15:25.559
Yeah, death squads.

310
00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:28.919
This was a Britain that's actually turned against itself, knowingly

311
00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:29.580
and willingly.

312
00:15:29.639 --> 00:15:31.259
And I think that's what this story is all about.

313
00:15:31.980 --> 00:15:35.580
Yeah, this is a Britain that's actually said, including the

314
00:15:35.580 --> 00:15:36.240
working classes.

315
00:15:36.299 --> 00:15:37.259
It's every class.

316
00:15:37.320 --> 00:15:39.720
I think we've got to get rid of that word and just start using

317
00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:41.340
people or we're never going to get anywhere.

318
00:15:41.399 --> 00:15:43.980
It's turned against itself and proportionately.

319
00:15:44.100 --> 00:15:47.580
It's middle classes as well, so that Tory voters could pay less

320
00:15:47.580 --> 00:15:48.360
income tax themselves.

321
00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:51.000
It was it was a real US thinking.

322
00:15:51.059 --> 00:15:54.299
We talk about this as being a post-Harvard School of Economics

323
00:15:54.299 --> 00:15:57.779
rationalisation in this neo-Cong world that we're in now, but it

324
00:15:57.779 --> 00:15:58.500
was actually very English.

325
00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:00.960
That should develop this and took this along.

326
00:16:01.019 --> 00:16:04.440
This, what we used to call Reaganomics at the time went out.

327
00:16:04.500 --> 00:16:07.799
But it became a very British thing and it was really about, we

328
00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:09.600
forget this now, and Brendan, you were too young.

329
00:16:09.659 --> 00:16:11.879
It was actually about lowering personal income tax.

330
00:16:11.940 --> 00:16:12.659
Look what happens.

331
00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:17.639
You get women walking around with toilet roll doily covers on

332
00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:22.860
their heads and massive choo-choo toy guns. kind of like the

333
00:16:22.860 --> 00:16:23.279
guns.

334
00:16:23.340 --> 00:16:27.179
You can have frocks and guns together because...

335
00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:28.679
It's super frog, isn't it?

336
00:16:28.740 --> 00:16:30.360
It's wonderfully, wonderfully frock.

337
00:16:30.419 --> 00:16:33.480
And in fact, I think part of the frocks and guns thing actually

338
00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:36.240
comes from this because...

339
00:16:36.299 --> 00:16:38.159
No, you did, because it's our podcast.

340
00:16:38.220 --> 00:16:41.279
Yes, okay. invented the internet as well.

341
00:16:42.419 --> 00:16:45.539
Human nature, that was one of yours. was mine.

342
00:16:45.899 --> 00:16:49.019
Dropped a piano on me. did it with brutal.

343
00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:52.919
This is kind of the frogs and guns thing because you've got that

344
00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:58.139
incredibly great scene, which will be referenced in next year's

345
00:16:58.139 --> 00:17:05.099
season where Sylvester goes up and just talks to gun wielding man

346
00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:10.380
out of shooting and he does it by showing them that being a gun

347
00:17:10.380 --> 00:17:14.039
wielding sniper isn't a particularly brave or macho thing.

348
00:17:14.099 --> 00:17:18.420
In fact, it's an expression of cowardice and they can't look him

349
00:17:18.420 --> 00:17:20.819
in the eye and and shoot him.

350
00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:24.839
And there's the other thing here too, where no one is happy.

351
00:17:24.900 --> 00:17:30.359
The happiness patrol is enforcing happiness across, you know, the

352
00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:34.920
entire society, but literally no one at all in the entire society

353
00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:38.279
is happy, and you've got political discontent.

354
00:17:38.339 --> 00:17:39.480
Maybe Joseph C.

355
00:17:39.539 --> 00:17:41.220
I made quite personal noise then.

356
00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:44.700
I think the Candyman might be reasonably confused.

357
00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:46.019
No, he's always angry.

358
00:17:46.019 --> 00:17:48.779
He is very grumpy.

359
00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:49.799
I haven't even got to him yet.

360
00:17:49.859 --> 00:17:53.700
My favourite thing in one, you know, possibly this whole era as a

361
00:17:53.700 --> 00:17:54.059
villain.

362
00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:56.039
Yeah, oh, I think he's terrific.

363
00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:59.160
You know, there was there was that whole thing when he was

364
00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:03.059
conceived that he was a normal looking person, but all of us...

365
00:18:03.059 --> 00:18:05.759
All of a sudden he would take off his glasses and start chewing

366
00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:08.160
them and then, you know, he'd accidentally chop off a finger and

367
00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:11.279
pick it up and eat it and that would reveal he may look human bees

368
00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:12.180
actually made of candy.

369
00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:15.420
And it's like, I think it was John Nathan Turner who insisted, no

370
00:18:15.420 --> 00:18:16.859
I would like a literal impression.

371
00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:19.980
And I think it's a great idea because it's giving us the Doctor

372
00:18:19.980 --> 00:18:21.000
Who monster thing.

373
00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:24.000
And it's giving us something...

374
00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:27.960
But something normal sweets becomes something sinister.

375
00:18:28.019 --> 00:18:31.500
You know this has an antecedent, though, because this is...

376
00:18:31.500 --> 00:18:31.859
Oh, of course.

377
00:18:31.859 --> 00:18:37.200
There's umpty candy in 2000 AD. Is it Judge Dredd?

378
00:18:37.259 --> 00:18:41.519
Umpty candy is the product that they use that's so sweet that many

379
00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:44.039
humans can't digest it and live.

380
00:18:44.099 --> 00:18:46.740
It's their take on drugs and...

381
00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:48.240
Yeah, directly from that.

382
00:18:48.299 --> 00:18:50.279
But that's okay because it's of the now.

383
00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:53.819
And it's Doctor Who being stupid.

384
00:18:53.880 --> 00:18:57.960
There must have been lots of fanboys who are utterly horrified by

385
00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:02.579
the scenes where the doctor sticks the candyman's marshmallow feet

386
00:19:02.579 --> 00:19:06.539
to the floor by pouring lemonade on it because it's silly.

387
00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:10.559
And we've had years and years of space corridors and aliens and

388
00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:13.259
Doctor Who is proper serious science fiction.

389
00:19:13.319 --> 00:19:17.460
And thank God, our long national nightmare of that is over.

390
00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:22.440
But look, as a seven-year-old, I thought that was so clever and I

391
00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:26.519
understood it because, and this is going to sound stupid, but the

392
00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:27.539
things you remember as a kid.

393
00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:31.440
Something I remember as a kid is every time I got in the bath, the

394
00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:33.299
soap would be stuck to the bloody dish again.

395
00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:34.319
That's gorgeous.

396
00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:35.279
And clean.

397
00:19:35.339 --> 00:19:36.119
And clean.

398
00:19:36.180 --> 00:19:39.720
But I would have to, you know, there was a certain amount of water

399
00:19:39.720 --> 00:19:41.640
you had to use to get the soap off the thing.

400
00:19:41.700 --> 00:19:47.039
So the idea that lemon, it's not quite so lemonade would stick the

401
00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:47.880
candyman to the floor.

402
00:19:47.940 --> 00:19:49.319
Is that your word?

403
00:19:49.380 --> 00:19:49.920
That's my word.

404
00:19:50.220 --> 00:19:53.880
Plus, of course, my mum was a chemist.

405
00:19:53.940 --> 00:19:56.039
Mine's haberdashi.

406
00:19:56.099 --> 00:19:57.420
My dad was a histologist.

407
00:19:57.480 --> 00:19:59.700
So, you know, there was a lot of science in the house, a lot of

408
00:19:59.700 --> 00:20:00.180
science books.

409
00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:02.579
So I understood I understood chemical reactions.

410
00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:08.400
But that also taught me that idea. and and not to press your

411
00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:14.279
little self against the enamel bathtub for too long.

412
00:20:14.339 --> 00:20:14.940
Right.

413
00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:17.519
That a mental picture for every listener.

414
00:20:17.579 --> 00:20:21.779
It's getting back to like the heart and all thing. where he

415
00:20:21.779 --> 00:20:25.259
discusses how light refraction works, how phosphorescence works.

416
00:20:25.319 --> 00:20:29.460
But it's just done in a really simple way that is relevant to the

417
00:20:29.460 --> 00:20:29.759
story.

418
00:20:29.819 --> 00:20:33.480
And quite frankly, if people think that it is silly.

419
00:20:33.539 --> 00:20:36.900
Don't get me wrong, a man made of sweets, a robot made of sweets

420
00:20:36.900 --> 00:20:37.380
is silly.

421
00:20:37.500 --> 00:20:42.480
Susan would be the Scarovian conjure again, I bet.

422
00:20:42.539 --> 00:20:46.019
Tardis, why am I channelling Alpha Centauri?

423
00:20:46.500 --> 00:20:48.119
Actually.

424
00:20:48.299 --> 00:20:50.880
I'm stuck in the bath again.

425
00:20:50.940 --> 00:20:54.660
That hexapod could have had some real moments as well. couldn't

426
00:20:54.660 --> 00:20:55.140
she eat it?

427
00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:58.799
But, you know, it's a question of is something too silly for

428
00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:01.319
Doctor Who, and very little is too silly for Doctor Who.

429
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:05.220
Not if it's really, really plum dark at the same time.

430
00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:07.500
This is the darkest doctor who's ever done.

431
00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:08.640
And the savages comes very close.

432
00:21:08.700 --> 00:21:11.579
Well, I don't think that we've ever had a villain that has

433
00:21:11.579 --> 00:21:13.980
literally killed half a 1000000 people.

434
00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:17.400
She's controlled the population down by 17%.

435
00:21:17.400 --> 00:21:21.539
And Trevor Sigma, which is, again, another great character has

436
00:21:21.539 --> 00:21:24.779
been counting the people who've disappeared and it comes in.

437
00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:29.160
It's just below half a 1000000 at the start of the story and just

438
00:21:29.160 --> 00:21:30.359
above it by the end.

439
00:21:30.420 --> 00:21:31.500
And he's there every 6 months.

440
00:21:31.559 --> 00:21:32.400
It's not 6 years.

441
00:21:32.460 --> 00:21:33.779
No, they actually say that.

442
00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:36.539
You think 6 quarters, 6 is, oh, okay, it's 6 years.

443
00:21:36.599 --> 00:21:37.200
No, 6 months.

444
00:21:37.259 --> 00:21:38.339
So yeah, she's really getting in there.

445
00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:42.359
And you get that amazing moment where Trevor Signal says to the

446
00:21:42.359 --> 00:21:44.339
doctor, this is the name of the list of the people who've

447
00:21:44.339 --> 00:21:47.160
disappeared and the doctor takes it and throws it across the

448
00:21:47.160 --> 00:21:47.519
square.

449
00:21:47.579 --> 00:21:51.059
You know, it's not on it's not on an iPad and we're not scrolling

450
00:21:51.059 --> 00:21:51.359
through it.

451
00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:54.900
We get that very visual representation of this is how many people

452
00:21:54.900 --> 00:21:55.799
are dead.

453
00:21:55.920 --> 00:22:00.119
Do you know that the title of this was Crooked Smile, but as

454
00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:03.180
everybody in Cardinal says, it was always going to be happiness

455
00:22:03.180 --> 00:22:05.579
patrol, because you know that what, that was a take on, Joy

456
00:22:05.579 --> 00:22:06.119
Division.

457
00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:10.619
No, we all know Joy Division as being the Ian Curtis Northern band

458
00:22:10.619 --> 00:22:12.539
that was actually frickin' miserable.

459
00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:15.359
And then after Curtis took his own life, it became new order.

460
00:22:15.420 --> 00:22:18.839
You know where they got the title of Joy Division and indeed New

461
00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:19.200
Order?

462
00:22:19.259 --> 00:22:22.680
Joy Division, if you translate directly to the German, was the

463
00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:27.480
name. of the officers given to the female internees in Nazi

464
00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:31.200
concentration camps, who were used as sex slaves by the officers.

465
00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:32.880
That's how dark this show is.

466
00:22:33.059 --> 00:22:34.440
Yeah.

467
00:22:34.500 --> 00:22:37.740
And, and, you know, you get that line from, we've got Leslie

468
00:22:37.740 --> 00:22:38.460
Dunlop back.

469
00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:39.779
You get that line from Susan.

470
00:22:39.900 --> 00:22:41.400
Mrs. Bellboy.

471
00:22:41.460 --> 00:22:44.220
She's married to Bilbo at the time.

472
00:22:44.279 --> 00:22:44.819
Lovely couple.

473
00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:48.660
And he, um, yes, and he, um, and he, no, he encouraged her to come

474
00:22:48.660 --> 00:22:50.700
back to Doctor Who because he'd had such a lot of fun on greatest

475
00:22:50.700 --> 00:22:51.059
show.

476
00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:54.660
And yeah, well, she gets that wonderful line about how she, you

477
00:22:54.660 --> 00:22:56.940
know, how she's happy that she's going to die because she's been

478
00:22:56.940 --> 00:22:58.619
smiling and it doesn't mean anything.

479
00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:03.839
And once you add in that dimension of the women who were used in

480
00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:04.140
that way.

481
00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:06.420
Yeah, okay.

482
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:08.220
It's a, it's a leap, but...

483
00:23:08.220 --> 00:23:10.740
Well, it's, it's, it's antecedents.

484
00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:11.519
You know what I mean?

485
00:23:11.579 --> 00:23:14.099
And something else about the story.

486
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:15.779
It's the planet of women, again.

487
00:23:15.900 --> 00:23:16.799
Ladyland.

488
00:23:16.859 --> 00:23:17.640
Ladyland.

489
00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:19.740
I think England was obviously right all the time.

490
00:23:19.799 --> 00:23:21.240
How it's going to end up.

491
00:23:21.299 --> 00:23:22.019
That's it.

492
00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:22.859
Put women in charge.

493
00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:27.779
Yes, bras and guns. that's where I think the snipers are so good.

494
00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:31.019
And I've mentioned this, the boys have the crap guns, don't they?

495
00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:33.599
Very small and gray things, they are. the guns.

496
00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:35.880
Something I've mentioned many times on the podcast before, and

497
00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:36.599
I'll keep this brief.

498
00:23:36.660 --> 00:23:38.460
The legend of Zelda series.

499
00:23:38.519 --> 00:23:42.839
In that series of games, the villain comes from a race called the

500
00:23:42.839 --> 00:23:43.680
Jirudo.

501
00:23:43.740 --> 00:23:49.259
And the story with the Jirudo is they are all women, except one

502
00:23:49.259 --> 00:23:53.279
man is born every 7 generations who will lead them and in the...

503
00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:54.539
Exhaustively, I can.

504
00:23:54.599 --> 00:23:55.740
Or bugger.

505
00:23:55.799 --> 00:23:56.640
Well, that's the thing.

506
00:23:56.700 --> 00:23:58.559
You kind of look, mind you, we die happy.

507
00:23:58.619 --> 00:24:01.319
You kind of look at the try and look at the logic of this, and

508
00:24:01.319 --> 00:24:05.460
it's like, if you have a humanoid species, which presumably

509
00:24:05.460 --> 00:24:07.079
involve sexual reproduction...

510
00:24:07.079 --> 00:24:10.619
And parthenogenesis, much as they cast show leaders for Doctor

511
00:24:10.619 --> 00:24:11.099
Who.

512
00:24:11.099 --> 00:24:14.700
You know, how does Ladyland work?

513
00:24:15.539 --> 00:24:18.359
So here, even...

514
00:24:18.359 --> 00:24:19.440
That's the new name for this podcast.

515
00:24:19.500 --> 00:24:23.039
So here, even though it is, quote unquote, ladyland.

516
00:24:23.099 --> 00:24:28.680
You do see male characters, and you see, if you like, the sexism

517
00:24:28.680 --> 00:24:32.400
inherent in this culture, and it holds a mirror up to the sexism

518
00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:35.880
of our culture, you know, and...

519
00:24:35.940 --> 00:24:37.920
This is also about masks.

520
00:24:37.980 --> 00:24:39.240
No, you get to do Zelda.

521
00:24:39.299 --> 00:24:40.440
I get to do Oscar one.

522
00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:46.740
Because this is also about the false face and exactly what, um

523
00:24:46.740 --> 00:24:49.680
Helena and Thatcher was doing at the same time.

524
00:24:49.740 --> 00:24:53.819
You know, in his essays, decay of lying, when he talks about masks

525
00:24:53.819 --> 00:24:56.579
being the obsession of image over underlying truth.

526
00:24:56.640 --> 00:25:00.420
So, and, and, um, I won't go into the quote again.

527
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:03.720
But, you know, the mystery of the world is invisible, not the

528
00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:07.140
invisible only, a fool does not judge by appearances as well.

529
00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:12.779
But, uh, that was also picked up by Franz Kafka, in the castle and

530
00:25:12.779 --> 00:25:16.740
the trial, with the hero being Joseph K. Do you remember?

531
00:25:16.799 --> 00:25:18.240
Has anyone actually read those?

532
00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:21.720
Something fandom talked about a lot of the time when this came

533
00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:21.960
out?

534
00:25:22.019 --> 00:25:24.539
I read Metamorphosis years ago.

535
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:25.980
That's amazingly good.

536
00:25:26.039 --> 00:25:29.220
But the trial and the, it's what the prisoner, the Patrick McGuin

537
00:25:29.220 --> 00:25:31.500
show was directly influenced by.

538
00:25:31.559 --> 00:25:33.599
But it's also very much this show.

539
00:25:33.660 --> 00:25:37.920
And that's where the sigma characters in the, and the, the, the

540
00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:40.500
the, KSP is directly from Kafka, yeah.

541
00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:46.619
Yeah, and I like that the initials are explicitly ranks because

542
00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:48.180
just in case you missed it. isn't that?

543
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:49.980
I think we should, you have that at school though, don't you?

544
00:25:50.039 --> 00:25:52.380
Yes, we just called people by their initials.

545
00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:56.640
But yeah, you've got Harold F. being bumped down to... being

546
00:25:56.640 --> 00:25:58.019
bumped down to Harold V.

547
00:25:58.079 --> 00:26:00.720
I think my favourite member of the Happiness Patrol is some

548
00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:04.380
Priscilla P, who's guarding the waiting zone, but she's my

549
00:26:04.380 --> 00:26:04.980
principal.

550
00:26:05.039 --> 00:26:06.240
I captured her myself.

551
00:26:06.359 --> 00:26:08.279
She's so fascinated.

552
00:26:08.339 --> 00:26:10.380
These girls are all babes and it's wonderful that they were all

553
00:26:10.380 --> 00:26:13.920
dolly birds in the 60s and 70s themselves in lots of shows and

554
00:26:13.920 --> 00:26:15.720
that whole thing of the fuller's earth makeup.

555
00:26:15.779 --> 00:26:16.440
You know the story?

556
00:26:16.500 --> 00:26:18.359
Only Leslie Dunlop was allowed to be pretty.

557
00:26:18.420 --> 00:26:22.740
And the makeup artist who was...

558
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:24.420
I think it was Dorkers.

559
00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:28.140
I could never say her name because it's like and the best round of

560
00:26:28.140 --> 00:26:29.099
Scrabble you've ever had.

561
00:26:29.099 --> 00:26:31.740
We can finally get all those letters onto the board and still

562
00:26:31.740 --> 00:26:32.039
win.

563
00:26:32.099 --> 00:26:34.440
Yeah, but she was using Fuller's Earth.

564
00:26:34.500 --> 00:26:39.119
Only, um, Georgina Hales make, um, she got a terrible rash because

565
00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:41.640
they couldn't get to talk to Chippitov.

566
00:26:41.819 --> 00:26:44.160
And I think with Georgina Hale.

567
00:26:44.220 --> 00:26:46.680
I have to mention for myself and James, she was a massive part of

568
00:26:46.680 --> 00:26:48.539
our childhoods in a show called teabag.

569
00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:50.400
Is anyone else seen that?

570
00:26:50.640 --> 00:26:54.299
It's not a term you can really use in polite company these days.

571
00:26:54.359 --> 00:26:55.200
No, I wouldn't Google it.

572
00:26:55.799 --> 00:26:58.740
Blossom's another one you shouldn't Google children.

573
00:26:58.799 --> 00:26:59.400
Blossom.

574
00:26:59.400 --> 00:26:59.880
Google that.

575
00:26:59.940 --> 00:27:02.640
It was an educational program with a sub Bonnie Langford child

576
00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:03.539
called Kelly Bryant.

577
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:04.559
Sub-Bonnie Lang.

578
00:27:04.619 --> 00:27:05.640
Don't Google right.

579
00:27:05.819 --> 00:27:09.480
Running around and collecting artefacts from poorly constructed

580
00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:13.859
studio sets to make sure that the evil witch tea bag, who was

581
00:27:13.859 --> 00:27:14.700
obsessed with tea.

582
00:27:14.759 --> 00:27:16.559
She could make a cup of tea and see the future in it.

583
00:27:16.619 --> 00:27:18.119
We didn't get her hands on it.

584
00:27:18.180 --> 00:27:20.039
Georgina Hale played the 2nd tea bag.

585
00:27:20.099 --> 00:27:23.160
Elizabeth Estenson played the 1st one. and Elizabeth Estenson was

586
00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:26.339
very, was incredibly sinister. you know, when...

587
00:27:26.460 --> 00:27:28.619
Did you get a little tear in her corner and then, you know, she

588
00:27:28.619 --> 00:27:30.779
just leaked everywhere and they had to replace her?

589
00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:31.319
right.

590
00:27:31.380 --> 00:27:35.759
Whereas Georgina Hale brought a bit more comedy to it, but was

591
00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:36.539
still quite scary.

592
00:27:36.599 --> 00:27:40.740
And so terrifies the bugger.

593
00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:44.039
And so she was teabag at the same time as she was on this show.

594
00:27:44.099 --> 00:27:45.960
So I recognised her.

595
00:27:46.019 --> 00:27:48.720
You know, it was like, it was like kids in the early 80s being

596
00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:51.539
able to switch on the TV any night of the week and there's Peter

597
00:27:51.539 --> 00:27:55.380
Bloody Davidson on 5 shows, none of which are headed by women.

598
00:27:55.440 --> 00:27:58.319
Thank you, Peter. ask Janet Fielding about that.

599
00:27:58.559 --> 00:28:02.220
Yeah, so that was where I recognised Georgia, you know, Hale, who

600
00:28:02.220 --> 00:28:06.359
plays Daisy K, and essentially she plays teabag in the same manner

601
00:28:06.359 --> 00:28:07.559
as Helen A, really.

602
00:28:07.619 --> 00:28:11.339
So imagine Helen A chasing after a young child who's trying to

603
00:28:11.339 --> 00:28:13.380
collect the 7 silver spoons of Atarak.

604
00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:15.180
It was that kind of show.

605
00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:18.420
Say it 3 times it's a big finish podcast.

606
00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:20.039
You'd love it, Nathan.

607
00:28:20.099 --> 00:28:23.880
It's basically the keys of marinace every single day. with a

608
00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:24.599
different artefact.

609
00:28:25.619 --> 00:28:30.299
What I love about these characters is, as you say, they are just

610
00:28:30.299 --> 00:28:32.700
you can tell they are actually desperately unhappy.

611
00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:34.980
All of them are incredibly unhappy.

612
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:38.519
Priscilla's unhappy because she used to be really good at her job

613
00:28:38.519 --> 00:28:41.039
and now she's manning the waiting zone.

614
00:28:41.099 --> 00:28:46.079
Daisy Kay is unhappy because no one takes her seriously.

615
00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:53.220
Susan Q, Susie Q. Susan Q is unhappy because her friends have been

616
00:28:53.220 --> 00:28:55.799
disappearing and she can't say anything about it.

617
00:28:55.859 --> 00:28:58.140
Silas P is unhappy because he's only in the 1st episode.

618
00:28:58.200 --> 00:28:58.920
Yeah.

619
00:28:58.980 --> 00:29:01.200
And and again, you know, he...

620
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:03.119
Because he's a man.

621
00:29:03.180 --> 00:29:06.900
His achievements aren't recognised because Helen A says, oh, you

622
00:29:06.900 --> 00:29:09.420
know, you found this many killjoys and he corrects her and she's

623
00:29:09.420 --> 00:29:10.559
like, no, I do the counting.

624
00:29:10.619 --> 00:29:15.599
And, you know, it mirrors what happens to women in our own.

625
00:29:15.660 --> 00:29:16.740
He wants to rise to the top.

626
00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:18.779
Not the very top, I hate.

627
00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:19.380
Yeah, exactly.

628
00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:22.980
Now, Richard, you alluded to this last season and it's something I

629
00:29:22.980 --> 00:29:24.539
only know secondhand.

630
00:29:24.599 --> 00:29:28.019
So I may start off, but please feel free to jump in and correct me

631
00:29:28.019 --> 00:29:30.660
because you're much older.

632
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:32.880
But, you know, old.

633
00:29:32.940 --> 00:29:37.619
Okay, so long story short, for those of you who are to, for those

634
00:29:37.619 --> 00:29:41.819
of you who want to wear late 70s, early 80s, gay men in America

635
00:29:41.819 --> 00:29:45.480
and in other places, started dying from a mysterious new cancer

636
00:29:45.539 --> 00:29:49.740
that was affecting the homosexual community later discovered to be

637
00:29:49.740 --> 00:29:50.940
HOV AIDS.

638
00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:55.259
And part of the response to this by the Reagan and Thatcher

639
00:29:55.259 --> 00:29:57.779
administration's was to essentially do nothing.

640
00:29:57.779 --> 00:30:03.779
And the public line was pretty much these people have no one to

641
00:30:03.779 --> 00:30:04.319
blame but themselves.

642
00:30:04.380 --> 00:30:07.140
Well, righteous indignation, and let's just throw in a little bit

643
00:30:07.140 --> 00:30:09.599
of Old Testament one upmanship here as well.

644
00:30:09.660 --> 00:30:12.539
The churchy folk were quite behind doing nothing.

645
00:30:12.599 --> 00:30:15.839
So it was Nancy Reagan, her best mate in the whole world.

646
00:30:15.900 --> 00:30:18.599
You would think, they certainly behave that way.

647
00:30:18.660 --> 00:30:19.319
Rob Hudson.

648
00:30:19.380 --> 00:30:22.920
I've got to tell you a lot of people at the time, um, had held

649
00:30:22.920 --> 00:30:26.039
very little flame for Rob Hudson because he was in the closet till

650
00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:28.980
the day he died, um, almost the day he died.

651
00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:33.900
But he also brought it to prominence and became quite vocal, or at

652
00:30:33.900 --> 00:30:36.779
least his friends did, that he was personally, you know, calling

653
00:30:36.779 --> 00:30:40.140
Nancy and writing her letters and saying, please intervene, please

654
00:30:40.140 --> 00:30:41.819
get these drug trials going.

655
00:30:41.880 --> 00:30:43.380
Please let us hand me a coach.

656
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:44.640
She just never responded to any of them.

657
00:30:44.700 --> 00:30:48.420
And Reagan was famous for just simply not mentioning it.

658
00:30:48.420 --> 00:30:49.980
Yeah. never bringing it up.

659
00:30:50.039 --> 00:30:53.579
And then you have, you know, the government being forbidden from

660
00:30:53.579 --> 00:30:55.619
promoting homosexuality.

661
00:30:55.680 --> 00:30:58.920
Like, was it local authorities in Britain were forbidden from

662
00:30:58.920 --> 00:31:02.579
spending any money on the promotion of homosexuality at all.

663
00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:06.480
Yeah, and promotion being safe sex, promotion being, mentioning it

664
00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:09.240
exists, promotion being, presenting it in any way other than a

665
00:31:09.240 --> 00:31:10.259
moral deviancy.

666
00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:13.559
But it was also, it's very telling for the next catastrophe that

667
00:31:13.559 --> 00:31:17.220
we get and how far away is that they had no cure and they knew not

668
00:31:17.220 --> 00:31:18.119
how it passed.

669
00:31:18.180 --> 00:31:24.299
The 1st people to actually publicly touch an HIV AIDS patient was

670
00:31:24.299 --> 00:31:28.200
not a member of any political organisation.

671
00:31:28.259 --> 00:31:31.440
They were both people in the entertainment, industry, and indeed

672
00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:32.579
near royalty.

673
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:36.720
Elizabeth Taylor and Princess Diana was actually the 1st people to

674
00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:40.680
touch and kiss HIV on camera. on camera.

675
00:31:40.740 --> 00:31:44.220
Because we really didn't know how it would, how it would

676
00:31:44.220 --> 00:31:44.880
transmit.

677
00:31:44.940 --> 00:31:47.400
And there was a very real fear, as with other viruses, that it

678
00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:48.299
could become airborne.

679
00:31:48.359 --> 00:31:51.059
And it was Australia, of all places.

680
00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:53.759
We had no idea, but friends of mine, poor kid, was one of them.

681
00:31:53.819 --> 00:31:56.160
He was at uni with me in 1st year, architecture and then ran

682
00:31:56.160 --> 00:31:56.460
away.

683
00:31:56.519 --> 00:31:59.519
They talked about this and he's been pause since, gosh, we were

684
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:01.680
you know, late teenagers and still with us, thank goodness.

685
00:32:01.740 --> 00:32:05.099
Australia was the 1st place to trial with condoms and actually

686
00:32:05.099 --> 00:32:07.140
issue them and saying this is the only way.

687
00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:10.500
We didn't know it wouldn't pass because the virus is so small and

688
00:32:10.500 --> 00:32:14.579
it was so very on it at the time that we assume we didn't know

689
00:32:14.579 --> 00:32:17.700
whether it would pass through a membrane, but as it turns out, it

690
00:32:17.700 --> 00:32:18.180
worked.

691
00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:18.900
Yeah.

692
00:32:18.900 --> 00:32:19.500
Yeah.

693
00:32:19.559 --> 00:32:23.160
So, yeah, that was only Australia doing that, not the UK and not

694
00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:23.579
the US.

695
00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:27.240
So here, like, why is this story talking about that?

696
00:32:27.299 --> 00:32:29.819
Because of Thatcher's clause 28.

697
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:36.000
No, I mean, what is it about this story that makes it about HIV

698
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:37.019
denialism, do you think?

699
00:32:37.140 --> 00:32:41.460
Well, the moment in particular for me is, um, the execution of the

700
00:32:41.460 --> 00:32:45.839
man by Fondant Suprise in episode one, who is Sai Town, who is an

701
00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:50.940
openly gay actor, and, yes, occasional Dalek.

702
00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:55.559
So he's not wearing a pink triangle badges is famously...

703
00:32:55.559 --> 00:32:56.519
No, he's wearing a pink shirt.

704
00:32:56.519 --> 00:33:00.720
Underneath a black chevron, which makes a triangle.

705
00:33:00.779 --> 00:33:03.420
And that pink goo, it's telling, isn't it?

706
00:33:03.539 --> 00:33:04.140
Yeah.

707
00:33:04.140 --> 00:33:08.940
And I think it is also because because of the campness of the

708
00:33:08.940 --> 00:33:09.240
story.

709
00:33:09.299 --> 00:33:12.299
Yeah, because he's emitted out of a giant tubular sphink.

710
00:33:12.359 --> 00:33:17.220
But for me, the moment is when he is executed for public grief

711
00:33:17.220 --> 00:33:23.819
because nothing was being done in the States or the UK about HIV

712
00:33:23.819 --> 00:33:29.039
which meant if your boyfriend died from AIDS, Well, you shouldn't

713
00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:29.700
be sad about that.

714
00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:31.079
It's exactly what he deserved.

715
00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:37.680
Grief in the gay community was seen by the authority as, well, that

716
00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:39.359
that's not a legitimate emotion.

717
00:33:39.420 --> 00:33:40.980
Your love wasn't legitimate to begin with.

718
00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:44.880
So why should we acknowledge your grief and as much as the fight

719
00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:49.740
was on to get actual medical treatment happening.

720
00:33:49.799 --> 00:33:51.900
There was also the fight for that recognition of these are people

721
00:33:51.900 --> 00:33:52.559
who are dying.

722
00:33:53.160 --> 00:33:57.960
And that is part of what this story is about because people in the

723
00:33:57.960 --> 00:34:01.380
story aren't allowed to mourn the dead, smiling while my friends

724
00:34:01.380 --> 00:34:01.920
were dying.

725
00:34:01.980 --> 00:34:02.819
Yeah.

726
00:34:02.819 --> 00:34:03.359
You know.

727
00:34:03.420 --> 00:34:08.519
And it is, in fact, when Helen A loses someone and actually does

728
00:34:08.519 --> 00:34:12.840
her own ostentatious display of public grief that, you know, the

729
00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:14.460
story comes round.

730
00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:17.519
And Fifi only had life by having a fist up its backside.

731
00:34:17.579 --> 00:34:19.440
So I think there's something in it for all of us.

732
00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:25.079
Oh, I mean, what also brings that round and makes this story

733
00:34:25.079 --> 00:34:32.460
superior to the savages and the sun makers is that it shows its

734
00:34:32.460 --> 00:34:33.719
villain to be human.

735
00:34:33.780 --> 00:34:36.539
Even though the villain is Thatcher, and we should feel no

736
00:34:36.539 --> 00:34:37.920
sympathy for her whatsoever.

737
00:34:37.980 --> 00:34:40.860
It's just no sympathy for herself nor anyone else.

738
00:34:41.340 --> 00:34:41.579
Exactly.

739
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:43.980
Fictionism, actually.

740
00:34:44.039 --> 00:34:47.760
That's the drug of choice that will bring down democracy

741
00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:48.539
perfectionism.

742
00:34:48.599 --> 00:34:55.559
Whereas here, the doctor evokes feeling and sympathy for the

743
00:34:55.559 --> 00:34:55.920
devil.

744
00:34:55.980 --> 00:34:59.340
Because he has such a good character and a positive influence.

745
00:34:59.400 --> 00:35:00.780
He's not just saving the planet.

746
00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:02.099
He's saving.

747
00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:03.719
He's trying to say...

748
00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:07.800
I think he and A standby quite impassively while...

749
00:35:07.860 --> 00:35:08.280
This is the point.

750
00:35:08.340 --> 00:35:09.300
They're a mirror.

751
00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:11.039
So they are quite devilish.

752
00:35:11.099 --> 00:35:11.940
I'm with you on that.

753
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:17.820
Because they nearly reflect back, but you could also say is a very

754
00:35:17.820 --> 00:35:22.860
Aristotelian and then Marcus Aurelian, and then it comes in with

755
00:35:22.860 --> 00:35:26.039
some New Testament writers as well that Nathan knows better than I

756
00:35:26.039 --> 00:35:31.619
such as Paul, uh, that, to teach others to do good.

757
00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:37.199
One cannot educate or enforce because that kind of incaucation is

758
00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:39.719
just met with animosity.

759
00:35:39.780 --> 00:35:40.980
What you do is show.

760
00:35:41.039 --> 00:35:42.960
Show don't tell.

761
00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:47.699
I think the really telling thing is in episode one A says she

762
00:35:47.699 --> 00:35:51.840
wants to make them very, very unhappy and that's what they end up

763
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:52.260
doing.

764
00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:55.860
And in fact, Helena's obsession with happiness actually makes her

765
00:35:55.860 --> 00:35:58.860
completely unable to deal with the revolution that takes place

766
00:35:58.860 --> 00:36:01.019
because she can't even accept that it's happening.

767
00:36:01.079 --> 00:36:05.760
An affectionist pursuit of an ideal that can never be...

768
00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:09.119
Yeah, it was her scene with Daisy Kay, where she's packing a case

769
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:13.320
and she cannot admit that the whole thing has gone to hell because

770
00:36:13.320 --> 00:36:14.579
that would be being unhappy.

771
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:17.760
That you was saying that of Pinochet at the time, a Chilean

772
00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:20.760
dictator who'd killed 1000000s of his own people, and she was

773
00:36:20.760 --> 00:36:22.320
offering him sanctum.

774
00:36:22.380 --> 00:36:28.199
Yeah, and the scene that leads up to Helena's broke down, where

775
00:36:28.199 --> 00:36:31.920
she's walking along and Sylvester steps out of the shadows, and

776
00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:35.639
you know, it's conducted with depth of field, and the shock on her

777
00:36:35.639 --> 00:36:38.400
face, the incomprehension of what went wrong.

778
00:36:38.699 --> 00:36:42.539
She's one of the most evil characters in Doctor Whoever because

779
00:36:42.539 --> 00:36:45.000
she genuinely believes she's doing the right thing.

780
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:49.199
If you look at who we probably held up as the best villain from

781
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:50.699
the Colin Baker era still.

782
00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:54.840
Still knows he's causing suffering and doesn't care, whereas Helen

783
00:36:54.840 --> 00:36:59.039
A genuinely thinks she is doing right by the people.

784
00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:03.420
She's not, of course, but the...

785
00:37:03.420 --> 00:37:05.880
She's pursuing the ideal that she's pursuing. with Justice

786
00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:10.320
Thatcher's father was a martinet that, you know, imposed strict

787
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:13.920
discipline on her, on her little, oh, it's so Jack and John

788
00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:14.820
Collins, isn't it?

789
00:37:14.820 --> 00:37:15.840
Really, above the shop.

790
00:37:15.900 --> 00:37:17.639
So she grew up, yeah.

791
00:37:17.699 --> 00:37:21.659
Yeah, but okay, I get I get what you're saying about, like, the

792
00:37:21.659 --> 00:37:26.579
doctor and A standby and force her to be unhappy, but at the same

793
00:37:26.579 --> 00:37:29.940
time, I think they stand by and allow her to be unhappy.

794
00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:32.519
She needs to go through that emotion herself.

795
00:37:32.579 --> 00:37:34.079
Unlike this podcast.

796
00:37:34.500 --> 00:37:38.760
And the point there is, of course, that Ace actually wants to step

797
00:37:38.760 --> 00:37:39.539
in and help.

798
00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:41.820
Ace says, can we do something?

799
00:37:41.820 --> 00:37:44.519
And it's the doctor who says, we've done it.

800
00:37:44.579 --> 00:37:45.900
This is what we've done.

801
00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:50.219
And I think it's also important because there are there are a few

802
00:37:50.219 --> 00:37:52.199
Doctor Who stories where the villain sort of gets their

803
00:37:52.199 --> 00:37:54.420
comeuppance and the doctor's not there.

804
00:37:54.480 --> 00:37:57.840
You know, the doctor sends them off with a bomb or something, graph

805
00:37:57.840 --> 00:37:58.500
indicate.

806
00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:03.840
This is a story where the doctor stays to watch the consequence of

807
00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:05.460
his actions upon the villain.

808
00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:08.579
He does it with Davros in remembrance of the Daleks as well.

809
00:38:08.699 --> 00:38:13.440
He will do it in Silver Nemesis, and he will do it in the greatest

810
00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:14.639
show in the galaxy.

811
00:38:14.940 --> 00:38:18.539
And I think that's a theme emerging here.

812
00:38:18.599 --> 00:38:23.039
Yeah, well, I think he's, I think he's teaching Ace, the

813
00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:25.800
importance of, you know, if you're going to take an action, you

814
00:38:25.800 --> 00:38:30.179
have to stand by and see the result of that, you have to accept

815
00:38:30.179 --> 00:38:31.739
responsibility for that.

816
00:38:31.800 --> 00:38:36.239
I wanted to say that this story has my favourite cliffhanger in

817
00:38:36.239 --> 00:38:39.659
the entire classic series and that's the 0 dear. doesn't look like

818
00:38:39.659 --> 00:38:43.500
Daphne S went down too well now, does it, Cliffhanger, which I

819
00:38:43.500 --> 00:38:45.239
just think is brilliant.

820
00:38:45.300 --> 00:38:46.739
It's so clever.

821
00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:53.340
It's got, I think Priscilla P comes in and paints RIP over

822
00:38:53.340 --> 00:38:55.139
Daphne's painting.

823
00:38:55.199 --> 00:38:57.960
And then you get the music, of course, sells it.

824
00:38:58.019 --> 00:38:59.460
The framing of the shot.

825
00:38:59.519 --> 00:39:02.519
You've got Sylvester standing there.

826
00:39:02.579 --> 00:39:06.059
You've got Ace helplessly just trapped in a photograph, you know

827
00:39:06.059 --> 00:39:07.679
in peril.

828
00:39:07.739 --> 00:39:12.900
It's just word peril, like the Dr. Mabus or M, as it was remade by

829
00:39:12.900 --> 00:39:15.599
Fritz Slang, which was an example of...

830
00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:17.460
Weimar film.

831
00:39:17.579 --> 00:39:19.559
I thought you were going to say that.

832
00:39:19.619 --> 00:39:21.360
No, it actually is.

833
00:39:21.480 --> 00:39:22.980
It's a similar scene.

834
00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:24.659
And yes, very much so.

835
00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:28.380
And they're very Weimar, dark, dark, dark humour because we've

836
00:39:28.380 --> 00:39:31.380
just gone through a wall with soldiers returned with missing limbs

837
00:39:31.380 --> 00:39:33.659
and such like, and that's kind of what this all felt like every

838
00:39:33.659 --> 00:39:36.360
era is like this, if we just acknowledge it.

839
00:39:36.780 --> 00:39:41.940
Speaking of episode endings, I really like the final scene, but so

840
00:39:41.940 --> 00:39:44.699
of course we have the emotional ending, which is Helene with Fifi

841
00:39:44.699 --> 00:39:49.320
but then we have the scene with Daisy K and Priscilla P repainting

842
00:39:49.320 --> 00:39:49.920
the TARDIS.

843
00:39:49.980 --> 00:39:53.760
And suddenly the pipe people, who, again, we haven't really talked

844
00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:57.360
about this, but there's an imperialism as well, that this society

845
00:39:57.360 --> 00:40:01.260
is built on excluding a whole class of people and taking their

846
00:40:01.260 --> 00:40:04.619
staff, the pipe people.

847
00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:05.880
Can we can we name check them?

848
00:40:05.940 --> 00:40:06.960
Alpidi.

849
00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:09.360
LPD, if you want to put it that way.

850
00:40:09.420 --> 00:40:12.360
ALP-I-D-A-E. That what they're called in the book.

851
00:40:12.420 --> 00:40:13.079
Oh, okay.

852
00:40:13.139 --> 00:40:15.780
They're, you know, an indigenous population that's being

853
00:40:15.780 --> 00:40:16.320
oppressed.

854
00:40:16.380 --> 00:40:17.940
Children with gruff voices.

855
00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:20.400
I think they were really cool. by little kitties.

856
00:40:20.460 --> 00:40:21.119
Gordon.

857
00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:27.000
But they get brought in.

858
00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:30.059
And so you've got this sort of motley group of people who are...

859
00:40:30.059 --> 00:40:32.219
Tiny rodent like Adrian Edmondson.

860
00:40:32.460 --> 00:40:37.079
But a group of people, a strange group of people who are now going

861
00:40:37.079 --> 00:40:39.000
to go off and try and build a proper society.

862
00:40:39.059 --> 00:40:41.039
I think it's it's nice.

863
00:40:41.159 --> 00:40:44.820
Yeah, and Susan Q and Earl Sigma, who we haven't really mentioned

864
00:40:44.820 --> 00:40:48.300
another black character in Doctor Who, who is a medical student.

865
00:40:48.300 --> 00:40:50.340
And not with a trumpet.

866
00:40:50.400 --> 00:40:52.619
I think we all have been relieved. was written.

867
00:40:52.679 --> 00:40:56.099
And actually plays the harmonica very well, you know, although

868
00:40:56.099 --> 00:40:58.619
they don't actually use it, he can actually play it, but he wasn't

869
00:40:58.619 --> 00:40:59.099
used.

870
00:40:59.099 --> 00:41:00.000
Oh, yeah, yeah.

871
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:01.260
Well, it's not him playing it.

872
00:41:01.320 --> 00:41:02.940
God, it's gorgeous, isn't it?

873
00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:03.599
It's beautiful.

874
00:41:03.659 --> 00:41:08.760
And it's also very New Orleans, the set design reflects the...

875
00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:11.159
And he and the doctor communicate with each other across town

876
00:41:11.159 --> 00:41:15.480
using jazz, which massages, massages next week as well.

877
00:41:15.539 --> 00:41:18.659
But yeah, he and Susie Q walk off arm in arm at the end.

878
00:41:18.840 --> 00:41:23.280
They do that fabulous film noir scene when they're standing over

879
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:25.860
Priscilla P tied up in the waiting zone.

880
00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:26.460
Remember?

881
00:41:26.519 --> 00:41:26.699
Yes.

882
00:41:26.699 --> 00:41:31.139
Helena's switches on the screen and it's fabulously noirage.

883
00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:32.760
Yeah, absolutely.

884
00:41:32.820 --> 00:41:36.480
And that last scene really embraces the doctor's concept of you

885
00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:40.619
cannot have happiness without sadness because Priscilla and Daisy

886
00:41:40.619 --> 00:41:41.880
K are making jokes.

887
00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:44.760
I'm glad you are happy, Daisy.

888
00:41:44.820 --> 00:41:49.440
The doctor and Ace are happy and they're repainting the TARDIS and

889
00:41:49.440 --> 00:41:51.480
Susie Q wanders off with Earl.

890
00:41:51.539 --> 00:41:55.079
So even though there has been all this sadness, there is, then

891
00:41:55.079 --> 00:41:55.619
happiness.

892
00:41:55.679 --> 00:41:59.519
When the drones come into Forum Square and start partying.

893
00:41:59.579 --> 00:42:02.400
They are genuinely happy because they've been told, actually, there

894
00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:04.619
is a revolution happening and they're like, finally.

895
00:42:04.739 --> 00:42:08.460
You know, even though they've come there out of a place of sadness

896
00:42:08.460 --> 00:42:12.300
it becomes happy, and of course, the doctor points out, hey

897
00:42:12.300 --> 00:42:15.659
twisted logic, you're the killjoy is now Happiness Patrol, because

898
00:42:15.659 --> 00:42:16.800
you're trying to stop a party.

899
00:42:16.860 --> 00:42:19.860
It's again a very British thing we touched on that in the last

900
00:42:19.860 --> 00:42:20.340
podcast.

901
00:42:20.579 --> 00:42:24.119
Yes, it's by not saying what you intend.

902
00:42:24.179 --> 00:42:25.019
Yeah.

903
00:42:25.019 --> 00:42:26.340
A nod and a smile.

904
00:42:26.460 --> 00:42:29.940
I mean, at the end of the last story as well in that funeral scene

905
00:42:29.940 --> 00:42:31.139
Ace says, did we do good?

906
00:42:31.139 --> 00:42:33.059
and the doctor doesn't say yes or no.

907
00:42:33.119 --> 00:42:35.639
He just says, look, well, we just have to see how the situation

908
00:42:35.639 --> 00:42:36.480
bears out.

909
00:42:36.539 --> 00:42:40.260
And they do leave after that, but, you know, you kind of think off

910
00:42:40.260 --> 00:42:43.380
camera, they had to have talked to Mike's mum and they've spoken

911
00:42:43.380 --> 00:42:45.719
to Mike's friends and they've gotten to know Mike's friends.

912
00:42:45.780 --> 00:42:50.519
They have stayed in the aftermath, but when they leave is the

913
00:42:50.519 --> 00:42:54.239
personal and private moment where his family are mourning, they

914
00:42:54.239 --> 00:42:57.900
allow them their space to mourn because they are outside of that.

915
00:42:57.960 --> 00:43:01.440
They are outsiders and that's what the doctor and companion always

916
00:43:01.440 --> 00:43:01.739
are.

917
00:43:01.800 --> 00:43:05.400
This is why I don't get about the show at the time and in fact

918
00:43:05.400 --> 00:43:07.079
fandom now and the actors now.

919
00:43:07.139 --> 00:43:09.119
I'll just say it here because we're in the podcast and we're

920
00:43:09.119 --> 00:43:10.679
talking about this being the queer story.

921
00:43:10.679 --> 00:43:14.699
And, you know, we've got that arc in this season, is that Desley

922
00:43:14.699 --> 00:43:20.099
McClendon, who was a secondary star in Follies, the Sondheim

923
00:43:20.099 --> 00:43:23.820
Follies at the time and plays Mike and Mike Smith in this one, was

924
00:43:23.820 --> 00:43:27.480
POS, and did die not that long afterwards.

925
00:43:27.539 --> 00:43:30.420
And, you know, and pretty roughly, obviously, as well, because

926
00:43:30.420 --> 00:43:31.679
there weren't the drugs to treat him.

927
00:43:31.739 --> 00:43:33.659
No one references it.

928
00:43:33.719 --> 00:43:38.400
They just say, oh, they, even on, you know, on the disk interviews

929
00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:41.940
even stuff, conventions and everything else that I've looked at

930
00:43:41.940 --> 00:43:45.119
it's never mentioned that he died of HIV AIDS.

931
00:43:45.179 --> 00:43:48.119
It's not even mentioned that he was queer because, oh, he's dead

932
00:43:48.119 --> 00:43:48.780
we can't talk about that.

933
00:43:48.840 --> 00:43:51.119
Yeah, we bloody should be talking about that.

934
00:43:51.179 --> 00:43:55.199
And I don't think he would appreciate that you're not talking

935
00:43:55.199 --> 00:43:58.559
about that because there seems to be the whole shame thing.

936
00:43:58.619 --> 00:44:00.719
You die because of a sexually transmitted disease.

937
00:44:00.780 --> 00:44:04.500
No, you died because you are a certain type of person who've had a

938
00:44:04.500 --> 00:44:05.760
certain type of life.

939
00:44:05.760 --> 00:44:08.159
And it isn't exactly like yours, but you know what?

940
00:44:08.219 --> 00:44:09.000
You're next in line.

941
00:44:09.059 --> 00:44:14.400
So I wonder how much of you're not agreeing to discuss me.

942
00:44:14.460 --> 00:44:18.960
I'm speaking now as McClindon and my passion for having lost

943
00:44:18.960 --> 00:44:21.900
friends at this age at this time when this was going out

944
00:44:21.900 --> 00:44:22.199
actually.

945
00:44:22.679 --> 00:44:27.420
I'm really not happy about the fact that when as fandom, and

946
00:44:27.420 --> 00:44:29.760
indeed as show people who are in the show.

947
00:44:29.820 --> 00:44:32.159
Don't mention this and don't discuss this.

948
00:44:32.219 --> 00:44:35.099
Well, that's all we've got, all we've got is podcast now to talk

949
00:44:35.099 --> 00:44:35.340
about.

950
00:44:35.460 --> 00:44:39.719
Well, that's why even though, as I said earlier, I didn't live

951
00:44:39.719 --> 00:44:43.800
through this, you know, I was I was born at the height of it, but

952
00:44:43.800 --> 00:44:47.099
when I was at university and I was going to queer student

953
00:44:47.099 --> 00:44:48.059
conferences.

954
00:44:48.119 --> 00:44:51.960
Where I learned so much about this, there was a documentary

955
00:44:51.960 --> 00:44:53.400
screened at one of these conferences.

956
00:44:53.460 --> 00:44:56.760
I can't remember it and, you know...

957
00:45:00.179 --> 00:45:05.880
So we had an auditorium full of uni students, and about half of

958
00:45:05.880 --> 00:45:09.239
them left during the course of documentary because they didn't see

959
00:45:09.239 --> 00:45:10.139
how it related to them.

960
00:45:10.139 --> 00:45:12.900
And it was about the AIDS crisis.

961
00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:16.380
And I remember at the end, I haven't seen him for many years.

962
00:45:16.380 --> 00:45:19.260
A young man who was big in the Sydney leather scene at the time

963
00:45:19.260 --> 00:45:22.260
got up and he just said, I want to say to all the people who've

964
00:45:22.260 --> 00:45:22.980
stayed, thank you.

965
00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:26.579
I accept that a lot of people our age don't know much about this.

966
00:45:26.639 --> 00:45:28.500
This is my address book.

967
00:45:28.559 --> 00:45:30.119
So this was before smartphones.

968
00:45:30.179 --> 00:45:31.139
He said, this is my address book.

969
00:45:31.199 --> 00:45:35.400
This is my 3rd address book in 10 years because I keep having to

970
00:45:35.400 --> 00:45:35.880
throw them away.

971
00:45:36.300 --> 00:45:38.340
That was happening, yeah.

972
00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:42.659
Yeah, and that's why whenever I talk about this story, I am so

973
00:45:42.659 --> 00:45:44.639
passionate about bringing this up, even though I didn't experience

974
00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:46.320
it, it makes me so angry.

975
00:45:46.440 --> 00:45:49.739
And also, you know, I know, I have friends who go through.

976
00:45:49.800 --> 00:45:50.760
I have a partner who went through it.

977
00:45:50.820 --> 00:45:51.599
Yeah, yeah.

978
00:45:51.599 --> 00:45:55.199
You know, and I know that finding out about it after the fact I'm

979
00:45:55.199 --> 00:45:57.360
being angry about it after the fact is not the same as having

980
00:45:57.360 --> 00:45:58.019
lived through it.

981
00:45:58.079 --> 00:46:03.119
But I think it is so important that we don't forget what it was

982
00:46:03.119 --> 00:46:05.699
like then, the way the people who walked out of the documentary

983
00:46:05.699 --> 00:46:08.760
they had the opportunity to learn what it was like then.

984
00:46:08.760 --> 00:46:10.320
And they've kind of gone.

985
00:46:10.380 --> 00:46:13.559
I'm 18, I'm 19. as I was at the time as well.

986
00:46:13.619 --> 00:46:14.820
It's not simply an age thing.

987
00:46:15.300 --> 00:46:17.519
This doesn't apply to me.

988
00:46:17.579 --> 00:46:20.219
And it's like, yeah, okay, maybe it doesn't apply to you now, but

989
00:46:20.219 --> 00:46:24.179
be grateful it doesn't apply to you now, because all these people

990
00:46:24.179 --> 00:46:26.519
had to suffer to make sure it doesn't apply to you now.

991
00:46:26.639 --> 00:46:30.179
But yeah, that's why I am so passionate about the story.

992
00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:32.820
That's why I would probably say it is my favourite Sylvester story

993
00:46:32.820 --> 00:46:34.980
because not only is it a good narrative in itself.

994
00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:36.300
It is social commentary.

995
00:46:36.539 --> 00:46:40.320
It is telling us to make our world a better place without

996
00:46:40.320 --> 00:46:44.699
punishing people who are not necessarily like, quote unquote, us.

997
00:46:44.760 --> 00:46:47.579
And because it shows us what we do and who we are.

998
00:46:47.639 --> 00:46:49.860
And do you know the, and the other reason that I really love it is

999
00:46:49.860 --> 00:46:52.980
because it isn't just about an internal or internalised grief

1000
00:46:52.980 --> 00:46:56.760
which is always should be, and what the AIDS crisis was also about

1001
00:46:56.760 --> 00:47:00.599
showing us, that this is also happening under every regime.

1002
00:47:00.659 --> 00:47:02.219
We're having it happening right now.

1003
00:47:02.280 --> 00:47:04.500
We don't talk about Rwanda, we don't talk, you know.

1004
00:47:04.559 --> 00:47:08.760
We don't, Bosnia and and sorry, Nova at the time was exactly this

1005
00:47:08.760 --> 00:47:09.360
kind of thing.

1006
00:47:09.420 --> 00:47:12.360
So I really, really love, I think the thing, the pinnacle that

1007
00:47:12.360 --> 00:47:15.239
they've achieved is talking about personal grief within the UK and

1008
00:47:15.239 --> 00:47:19.559
within Commonwealth at the time. is a mirror of what we were also

1009
00:47:19.559 --> 00:47:20.340
sanctioning.

1010
00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:23.760
Indeed, allowing in these other nations.

1011
00:47:23.820 --> 00:47:27.900
Which is simply a dismissal of suffering and dismissal of death.

1012
00:47:28.019 --> 00:47:32.280
And that's the great cultural point that we need to start owning.

1013
00:47:32.340 --> 00:47:37.260
And this show, a kids show that no one was watching is being more

1014
00:47:37.260 --> 00:47:41.760
of the moral arbiter and the greatest voice for consciousness that

1015
00:47:41.760 --> 00:47:42.420
we were getting.

1016
00:47:42.480 --> 00:47:43.980
God, is Doctor Who really this good?

1017
00:47:44.039 --> 00:47:44.940
Maybe it actually is.

1018
00:48:01.019 --> 00:48:05.340
Well, dear listeners, paradise is a bit too pink for us, so we're

1019
00:48:05.340 --> 00:48:09.900
taking off for a nice, a nice summer concert with Courtney Pine, do

1020
00:48:09.900 --> 00:48:12.119
come back next week for Silver Nemesis.

1021
00:48:12.179 --> 00:48:14.639
In the meantime, don't forget, check our show notes for a link to

1022
00:48:14.639 --> 00:48:16.260
vote for our Colin Baker commentary.

1023
00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:18.599
Your choices are Mark of the Rani.

1024
00:48:18.659 --> 00:48:22.260
Revelation of the Daleks, the Mysterious Planet, or Terror of the

1025
00:48:22.260 --> 00:48:24.480
Vervoids, so do make sure you vote for one of those.

1026
00:48:24.539 --> 00:48:26.519
Meanwhile, over on Bond Finger.

1027
00:48:26.579 --> 00:48:29.340
We are about to get 3 quarters of the way through the Pierce

1028
00:48:29.340 --> 00:48:30.780
Brosnan era of James Bond.

1029
00:48:30.840 --> 00:48:33.900
Next week, we'll be releasing our commentary for the world is not

1030
00:48:33.900 --> 00:48:34.619
enough.

1031
00:48:34.679 --> 00:48:37.260
With Pierce Brosnan, Sophie Marso, Denise Richards and Robert

1032
00:48:37.260 --> 00:48:40.019
Carlo, and Robbie Coltrane is actually quite a good one, in my

1033
00:48:40.019 --> 00:48:40.380
opinion.

1034
00:48:40.440 --> 00:48:42.000
That's over on bondfinger.com.

1035
00:48:42.059 --> 00:48:45.239
Bondfinger on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at Bondfinger cast

1036
00:48:45.239 --> 00:48:46.139
on Twitter.

1037
00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:49.079
We, of course, are flight through entirety.sexy, flight through

1038
00:48:49.079 --> 00:48:53.340
entirety on Apple Podcasts and Facebook and at FTE podcast on

1039
00:48:53.340 --> 00:48:54.000
Twitter.

1040
00:48:54.059 --> 00:48:56.519
Until next week, may your husband not run away with your chief

1041
00:48:56.519 --> 00:48:57.179
confectioner.

1042
00:48:57.239 --> 00:48:58.260
Thank you very much for listening.

1043
00:48:58.320 --> 00:48:58.619
Good night.

1044
00:48:58.679 --> 00:48:59.280
Good night.

1045
00:48:59.340 --> 00:49:00.659
It's a sticky end, isn't it?

1046
00:49:00.719 --> 00:49:01.019
Good night.

1047
00:49:19.139 --> 00:49:22.980
That was fight their entirety with Nathan B, Brendan J, and

1048
00:49:22.980 --> 00:49:26.400
Richard S. Theme arrangement by Cameron L, logo designed by

1049
00:49:26.400 --> 00:49:27.059
Anthony W.

1050
00:49:27.119 --> 00:49:32.219
This episode, this neocon world, was recorded on the 22nd of July

1051
00:49:32.219 --> 00:49:32.699
2017.

1052
00:49:32.940 --> 00:49:35.400
The next episode will be released on August 13.

1053
00:49:39.119 --> 00:49:43.440
If you want to make us very, very unhappy, just hold a $120

1054
00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:46.980
million optional vote on whether this story exists or not.

1055
00:49:53.039 --> 00:49:55.019
Okay, so I think that's done.

1056
00:49:55.079 --> 00:49:56.340
Hate the cars.

1057
00:49:57.599 --> 00:50:00.119
Chris Clough can direct traffic.

1058
00:50:00.179 --> 00:50:03.300
I think we've said that before about Ron Jones.

1059
00:50:03.599 --> 00:50:07.980
They said slow moving vehicles in a tiny studio.

1060
00:50:10.380 --> 00:50:13.019
Sophie was only allowed half a litre a day.