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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 13:56:38

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast who's just as good as we've always been.

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Thank you, Adrian Mole.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm a hollowed out melon of creamed corn and custard for this one.

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We are on our way to the psychic circus for the greatest show in the galaxy.

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Mind the flaps, dear.

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This ends up being the season finale of season 25, the anniversary season.

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Not in my history.

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No, no.

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I much prefer Silver Nemesis is the finale.

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It feels more fitting because, you know, we get the callback and we get that beautiful last moment we discussed last week of who are you?

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Which is actually really well done for such a...

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Mawkish line.

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But instead, we get this four-part story from Stephen Wyatt, who wrote Paradise Towers last year, which we all quite enjoyed.

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I think the execution in this one is much better though, because we did say last year the execution of Paradise Towers was flawed, like the ages didn't quite work.

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Had more time on this one, haven't they?

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That's very true.

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And it looks spectacular.

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I mean, it really Surprising how good it looks.

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Yeah, it's not all done to paint box.

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There's a lot of other things going on here.

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They put money into this.

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They tend to do that each season, don't they?

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They have a big money burner.

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Well, let's not dispaint box because they do a great job.

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I think it's no, I love it. it's beautiful.

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Yeah, there's that wonderful shot where Nord rides off towards the circus and there's that big ringed planet in the background.

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And think back just a couple of years earlier where you had those sort of appalling day glow pink planets in the sky of Thoros Bisa and just how much more subtle and well done it is.

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And you have, I think, you know, the greatest director of this era of Doctor Who.

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Yeah, Alan Waring.

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And he's wonderful.

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I mean, we will go on to talk about how great he is in ghost lies and survival, I think.

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But here I think he's really, really wonderful.

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And just the look of the show is great.

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And of course, there were those massive production problems.

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Which were the greatest benefit to mankind.

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We could have possibly hoped.

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On Alan Waring just before we get into that.

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A moustache.

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Alan Waring is the most gust, well, gut busting, brine island zip up, $6000000 man, skivvy moustache you have ever seen.

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Really?

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Yeah, in the day.

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It's worth watching the videos just for that.

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Bristling, it is.

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Joan Crawford with a pencil moustache, maybe?

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No, there's nothing Robert Donar about it.

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It's your it's your full upper brush.

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We talking Jason King?

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Oh, I wish.

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They should have brought him back.

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But what you were saying with the paint box, for instance, if we just look at the story we discussed last week, Silver Nemesis.

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And this is something I didn't notice until I was rewatching it for the podcast.

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The compositing work and the sort of paintbox mat work on Deflora's house is actually really bad.

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Like the house suddenly...

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That was really hard to do.

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But compared to what we see here.

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Maybe it's just one year is a whole, you know, how much time you, the jumps in tech at the time were amazing one year to the next.

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I also think season.

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Oh okay.

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Because Sylvan Es time then maybe.

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But also, I'm wondering if maybe Chris Klough settled where Alan Waring pushed.

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Oh yeah, possibly.

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But as you alluded, Nathan, there were production problems.

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First of all, something I found out recently that I didn't know.

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This started life as a three-parter.

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And essentially the episode they added in was the 1st episode with travelling to the circus.

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Like that was originally going to be 5 minutes of episode one and Cartmel and Wyatt kind of agreed.

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No, let's get to know the characters, give it a bit of breathing space.

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And I think that really works.

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In terms of the production problems.

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They actually got all the way through the location shoot.

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So all the stuff in the sand pit, which we'll see again next year in survival.

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And there's a lot of it.

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A whole stack of it is shot on location, as is now the thing.

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Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

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And on the DVDs, there's even character bits that didn't make it into the show, especially for Captain Cook and Mags.

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So after they shot all that, it was discovered that there was asbestos in television centre.

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So that had to be cleared out and that had a knock on effect and it was kind of the sharder case of other programs were given precedence over Doctor Who.

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And for about 4 or 5 hours, this story was officially cancelled, much like Charter had been.

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Q, JNT, and Gary Downey calling around, finding out places they could go, and eventually.

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Because it had to be filmed on BBC property because the union thing was still really big.

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So you couldn't just go to any old rehearsal room or any other stage.

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No.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And they were going to go to BBC Elstree, but then the Elstree Studios were being used for something and it was actually the set designer.

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EastEnders.

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I know.

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That would have, look, way before dimensions in time.

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We had greatest show in the Galaxy.

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The set designer, David Lasky, had filmed enough.

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Professor Lasky.

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Professor Lasky.

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Well, he had dumb set design for Terror of the Burvoids.

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But he had done aggressively.

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He had done a production before in a tent.

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I know.

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And that's where the idea came from.

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Let's put all the sets up in a tent.

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Funnily enough, it's set in a tent.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And there was just this penny dropping moment of the office of he said, we can put it in a tent.

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And apparently it was Gary Dowder.

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He said, well, it is set in a circus.

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And that even the TARDIS console room is in the tent, and that's why the lighting is very slightly different from previous appearances, but I think this is the only console room scene this season.

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It is.

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Yeah.

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I like that.

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Me too.

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And next season we're only going to get one console room scene as well.

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But that's how this all came about.

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And what people have sort of said since is, you know, when they're running through corridors in the tent and you've got the billowing walls.

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It's like, you know, to do that in studio, we wouldn't have been able to.

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You need Bonnie Tilo, yeah.

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Surprise mirror.

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Sorry, literal music video.

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But David Lasky kind of went on to say, to do that in the studio, we would have needed wind machines, but if we had wind machines, we would have had to dub the dialogue because you wouldn't have been able to hear it.

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Putting it actually outside.

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We get that natural breeze.

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And so in episode 4, jumping ahead, when the doctor's going through that vortex and there's all that wind and everything, it feels like we've been building up to it.

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It's one of these wonderful serendipity stories where, The circumstances conspire to give you something that is much better than it was originally meant to be.

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It's the 1st of 2 Sylvester McCoy for partters that just end up being shot essentially entirely on location.

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And it really works, I think, for that reason.

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It just looks really spectacular.

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And this has been a spectacular looking season all the way back from remembrance of the Daleks, which I think we thought looked amazing and had some really terrific sets.

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We're at that point now, the Indian summer point, we were looking at these thinking, these were so good.

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Why was nobody seeing these?

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And Jonathan, well, you know, because there wasn't any publicity.

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We're about to find out for next season just how little publicity there was because there was no budget for it, and it was partly GNTs doing as well.

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But you also had Jonathan Powell saying, yes, yes, it's very good.

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It's very good.

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I think they'd planned to just let it die its natural death.

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And I don't think that's just received fan wisdom. listening to what we're saying now and watching them over again.

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I'm really feeling like they're just letting the kids out to play one more time before we leave.

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We don't tell them we're moving.

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Because, I mean, Doctor Who is still kind of a joke at this point.

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Very much so.

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And you had stand-up comedians now doing the usual football crowd thing about wobbly sets and stairs.

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But it does, it doesn't look like that.

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That's not what we're getting.

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Well, those tent walls aren't exactly...

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Well, they are holding themselves up, I suppose.

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But you know, Richard, you're exactly right.

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And the thing is, even with the success Doctor Who's had in the last 10 years, and I understand, over the last couple of years, the ratings in pure numbers have waned, but the audience appreciation figures an audience share haven't changed all that much.

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So Doctor Who is still popular.

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Yeah, it still gets to be in the top 20, doesn't it?

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Nowadays.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Only, only, only just.

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Sometimes it's 21.

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But people are still making the dialects going upstairs joke.

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And in 2005, you know, when Rob Shearman's Dalek story finally happened, the headlines were all, oh, Daleks are back and now they can climb upstairs.

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Oh, how amazing.

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And there's... received psychism. received everything else.

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There is not a lot to it.

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Do you remember that wonderful scene in John Richard and Adam Richards show, Outland, where Toby Trustlove playing the Doctor Who fan brings home a guy who finds a Dalek in his sugar bowl and says, oh, they're the masters of the universe, but they can't climb upstairs and Toby's internal monologue.

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Like, actually, they've been climbing stairs since 1988's remembrance of it up.

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No, no, leave him alone.

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We've all had that little moment, though.

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That's what it's like.

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But not we.

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No, it is, and it's the same reason that, you know, they'll still happily vote the way they do and say there's no climate change.

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That's right.

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If you don't accept Daleks can buy?

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You don't believe in one.

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Actually, I think there's probably a correlation there.

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And it is extraordinary to see how well this show was doing at the time.

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And I think it was actually too good in the way that certain films and certain plays are only appreciated more later.

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This is one of them.

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The 80s was all about, just like the mid 60s, early 60s, new and fresh.

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It hasn't been as fresh, I feel, since, since Hinchcliffe in the popular vision of, although, to us fans, that's not the case.

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But I mean, it should have been doing as well as those 1st Toms.

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Absolutely.

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And episode 4 of this actually gets 6.6 million.

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That's not too foul, is it?

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You know why?

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It had a little bit of publicity.

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And it ran 5 minutes over or under, I remember.

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And so the people, casual viewers, caught it as they were coming in to watch Bergerac or whatever it was that came on afterwards.

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So there were, yeah, it's, if they just had publicity, it would have, would have done really well.

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It is still this sort of madly experimental thing.

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I mean, the whole idea of setting it in a circus.

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I mean, we talked about this with Paradise Towers where it's in no way realistic.

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All of the characters are programmatic, none of them have proper names.

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Um, you know, the whole thing is a sort of weird allegory.

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It's something that could never have happened in the Hinchcliffe era where it's all, you know, long dead evils threatening storybook situation.

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This isn't science fiction, really.

189
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No this is social commentary.

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We were too close in the Hinchcliffe era to get to what this thing is about, which is the failure of the flower power movement, the failure, the failure of love.

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Mr. Major.

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The failure of love.

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I think I think it does work on 2 levels.

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And then there's the immediate level where it's about Doctor Who.

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It's called Doctor Who, the Greatest Show in the Galaxy, and it is essentially about the history of Doctor Who.

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And so that sort of told partly through the character of Wiz Kid.

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But then it opens out to be a story about the failure of the flower power generation and the way that they turned into hard-nosed coke snorting capitalists in the 1980s.

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And so it's it's resonant, I think.

199
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And, and you, you might wonder why this makes it into a 25th anniversary season, but it is in some senses a secret history of Doctor Who, where the doctor has been fighting the, the gods of Ragnarok all through time just to stay alive, that if he stops being entertaining, if he stops pleasing the audience or possibly even pleasing various people at the BBC, he'll be immediately killed.

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And, you know, the symbol of the psychic circus is the eye.

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It's all about the audience.

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We have an audience appreciation figures.

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We have all of those sorts of things that we've been talking about.

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We have the widespread belief that Doctor Who used to be good and isn't anymore.

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Um, the people making it.

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The people making it are tired, jaded, and I'm not talking about the podcast.

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You know, and there's this sort of weird analogue of the Doctor Who constantly, you know, Captain Cucku constantly wanders through the show talking about his past adventures, talking continuity references.

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So that's it.

209
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Can we talk about WizKit and...

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We ready to talk about that yet?

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Wiz kid, okay?

212
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Apotheosis.

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Tick that bingo box of of ours, of ours, of Barker's, as Mr. Downey and Mr. Nathan Turner called us.

214
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And in his notes to Cartmel and Stephen Wyatt.

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JNT did write.

216
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I really like the Barker character.

217
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He...

218
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Oh wow.

219
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But Cartmore expanded the character of the captain, who was meant to die at the end of episode one, and there is received fan wisdom.

220
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I'm not naming names.

221
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Some of his lines. purlieus, little twists on actual guests from actual conventions telling the actual same story.

222
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The same story. excuse me.

223
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Over and over and over.

224
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So, yeah, this is this is an internal and external standup of these people.

225
00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:44.700
I adore the moment where the doctor shouts at the caption.

226
00:15:44.759 --> 00:15:49.379
You're also a crushing boar and the look the look TP mechanic gives me.

227
00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:55.620
No, there's a reaction from one of the clown robots in the background who puts his hand open his mouth.

228
00:15:55.679 --> 00:15:58.559
Like that like that shocked kitten gift.

229
00:15:58.620 --> 00:16:00.539
Can I say I...

230
00:16:00.539 --> 00:16:01.200
Well before, yeah.

231
00:16:01.259 --> 00:16:07.200
I really love Wiz Kid. and I think WizKit is actually an affectionate take on the fans.

232
00:16:07.620 --> 00:16:10.379
He is a send-up, but he's not.

233
00:16:10.500 --> 00:16:13.320
I don't find his character insulting.

234
00:16:13.379 --> 00:16:18.000
He is a bit over enthusiastic, but he's also a nice person.

235
00:16:18.059 --> 00:16:24.480
You know, and everything he does comes from a place of love, even if he's irritating.

236
00:16:24.539 --> 00:16:27.059
And the old performers can't wait for him to die.

237
00:16:28.019 --> 00:16:30.360
But that's the that's the thing.

238
00:16:30.419 --> 00:16:48.240
I think he's also a little bit of a commentary on the fan commentary of the time because, you know, say we keep making fun of him, but Chris Chimnall last year, the year before on points of view, and, you know, the kind of joke we've made now of, okay, if you think it's so easy, you do it.

239
00:16:48.299 --> 00:16:49.860
Well, that's more.

240
00:16:49.980 --> 00:16:52.259
But that's what the Wiz Kid does in this.

241
00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:58.980
He thinks he can go into the psychic circus and be an act, but he doesn't survive a few seconds. you know?

242
00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:00.360
So it's kind of saying to fans.

243
00:17:00.419 --> 00:17:06.119
We, you know, we love that you love us, but don't think you can walk a mile in our shoes because it is harder than it looks.

244
00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:09.180
In fact, before he goes into the ring.

245
00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:21.059
The captain says that he's certain that he has style and panache and that he'll be great in the ring and he's actually a little bit, he kind of admits that he's not really very sure of that.

246
00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:23.579
And so we do know that he's going to be killed.

247
00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:24.900
Oh, God, yeah, yeah, yeah.

248
00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:36.059
Yeah, I also think when you talk about the fan commentary, There is obviously this story that Doctor Who used to be good and isn't anymore.

249
00:17:36.059 --> 00:17:40.799
And we're, during a period of time where it's actually not possible to watch early Doctor Who at all.

250
00:17:40.859 --> 00:17:45.359
And so in the 5 doctors, They bring back Richard Herndle as the 1st doctor.

251
00:17:45.539 --> 00:17:48.000
But they don't know what he's like.

252
00:17:48.059 --> 00:17:49.740
You know, he's the grumpy one.

253
00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:50.700
Have you seen Todd, really?

254
00:17:50.759 --> 00:17:52.980
30 seconds, no, it's like.

255
00:17:53.220 --> 00:17:55.859
So no one knows what he's like.

256
00:17:55.980 --> 00:18:02.940
And Wiz Kid admits that he's never seen early Doctor Who and that he's just going by his experience of seeing the posters.

257
00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:03.779
He's got all the posters.

258
00:18:03.779 --> 00:18:06.000
He's got all the posters, so he knows what it's like.

259
00:18:06.059 --> 00:18:08.220
He's got a WH Allen poster.

260
00:18:08.279 --> 00:18:12.720
Yeah, he's got a full collection of Peter Haning books on the early history of the psychic circus.

261
00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:15.900
The other reason I love...

262
00:18:15.900 --> 00:18:17.519
The thing is, it's so true.

263
00:18:17.579 --> 00:18:28.559
It was years when I was a fan before I saw Hartnell and Troughton, and I just have the targets, but I didn't read many of them, but the covers are burned on my memory and the blurbs are burned on my memory.

264
00:18:28.619 --> 00:18:32.160
Because, you know, I was reading Doctor Who books, but I was also reading Roald Dahl.

265
00:18:32.220 --> 00:18:34.559
Like Matilda was my favourite book as a kid.

266
00:18:34.619 --> 00:18:39.960
I could literally sit there and read it as in a night, considering the subject matter, that's quite apt.

267
00:18:40.019 --> 00:18:53.339
But the other reason I love WizKid is because Star Trek tries to do the same idea this year in season 2 of Star Trek Next Generation, in an episode called Samaritan Snare, which introduces the PackLeds.

268
00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:55.319
If we remember...

269
00:18:55.380 --> 00:18:56.819
They look for things to make them go.

270
00:18:56.880 --> 00:18:58.319
They look for things to make them go.

271
00:18:58.380 --> 00:19:04.319
So they kidnap the engineer, Geordie La Forge, to try to get him to make them go.

272
00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:09.960
And the thing is, the writers have said, oh yeah, you know, they're, they're, um, they're a parody of our fans.

273
00:19:10.019 --> 00:19:16.319
They're deliberately written to be obese, slow witted, stupid and selfish.

274
00:19:16.380 --> 00:19:25.980
Not really a good idea to lampoon your base viewer viewers either at the end of a show or for Trex case at the beginning.

275
00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:27.059
Yeah, yeah.

276
00:19:27.059 --> 00:19:28.799
But how did the Yanks take that?

277
00:19:28.859 --> 00:19:30.660
I mean, I mean, our lovely American friends.

278
00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:31.380
How did they take?

279
00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:35.759
The thing is, I have seen a lot of people react to that commentary and go, oh, I'd never seen that before.

280
00:19:35.819 --> 00:19:46.740
Whereas when we're watching Greater Show in the galaxy, just say if you're, I didn't get it as a kid, so maybe you're if you're about Wiz kids' age or older, you would pick up that, hey, that person is like me.

281
00:19:46.859 --> 00:19:49.200
When Doctor Who does it, it's affectionate.

282
00:19:49.259 --> 00:19:51.839
It's, it's slightly taking the piss.

283
00:19:51.900 --> 00:19:53.400
And he does get killed.

284
00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:54.480
And he does get killed.

285
00:19:54.539 --> 00:20:00.660
But we kind of like, I think a lot of Doctor Who fans would be happy being in Doctor Who just to get killed, you know?

286
00:20:00.900 --> 00:20:04.920
I don't know him very well, but I know you're opening up a whole new can.

287
00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:09.599
That's the place on the internet. on the show.

288
00:20:09.660 --> 00:20:12.180
But someone I knew in the UK.

289
00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:18.359
He had been an extra on several David Tennant stories and he loves talking about it.

290
00:20:18.420 --> 00:20:28.740
He was killed by the reality bomb in the Stolen Earth and Journey's End. he's one of, he's standing behind Jackie when she's in the chamber and he's like, oh, you know, it was a great day.

291
00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:30.240
And I got to die on Doctor Who.

292
00:20:30.299 --> 00:20:31.500
So I think...

293
00:20:31.500 --> 00:20:37.559
Compare that to the PackLeds, where I think, okay, I think with Wiz Kid, you're in on the joke.

294
00:20:37.619 --> 00:20:38.940
You're part of the joke.

295
00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:40.740
You're like, oh yeah, that is a bit like me.

296
00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:42.059
Yeah, I do have all the posters.

297
00:20:42.119 --> 00:20:48.059
Whereas the PacLeds are like, not even an oversimplification, just a really insulting version of the Star Trek fan.

298
00:20:48.119 --> 00:21:07.740
We need to go back to look at the centre of our universe here, the doctor who has become, and I'd like to talk about Sylvester's performances, because he's much maligned by fan history, but I think when you start watching this in the next season, you see that he can hold things together that I don't know many other actors playing the doctor would have been able to do so, especially in Ghost Light.

299
00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:10.859
But in this one, he does care about Wiz Kid's death.

300
00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:12.539
Whereas Bellboy.

301
00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:29.579
That scene, can we get to some of the other characters, that scene, let's talk about Bellboy and Flower Child were probably the most, I know it's very, you know, it's like a Japanese anime romance thing at the beginning, but They are rounded out before any of the other ones are.

302
00:21:29.579 --> 00:21:35.099
And Bellboys, the filming of Bellboys suicide, the clowns and the doctor just getting up and leaving.

303
00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:38.279
It's really well done television.

304
00:21:38.339 --> 00:21:39.779
It just happens to be in Doctor Who.

305
00:21:39.900 --> 00:21:41.819
The doctor seems to go, yep.

306
00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:43.680
That's yep, you go ahead.

307
00:21:43.740 --> 00:21:44.759
You made your choice.

308
00:21:44.819 --> 00:21:45.119
Go ahead.

309
00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:46.619
I think this is very dark.

310
00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:47.400
Very nice, though.

311
00:21:47.460 --> 00:21:52.680
I think there is a sadness and I do like Ace's reaction as well, where she makes that scene, really.

312
00:21:52.740 --> 00:21:59.940
Yeah, she doesn't quite know how to react and he sort of doesn't even respond properly to her encouragement.

313
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:05.039
He's not looking in her direction when he sort of ushers her out of the of that caravan.

314
00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:08.039
It is really strong and interesting.

315
00:22:08.039 --> 00:22:14.279
The caravan of courage. caravan of allowing yourself to be strangled by robots.

316
00:22:14.339 --> 00:22:15.960
The...

317
00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:20.700
I think it's a metaphor for George Lucas, for working under George Lucas, yeah.

318
00:22:20.940 --> 00:22:24.240
He's a really good character and so is Flower.

319
00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:24.900
Very well performed.

320
00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:28.619
Well, in her very, very short appearance in the show.

321
00:22:28.680 --> 00:22:35.579
She's only there in episode one and she's clearly stronger than him and more sensible and capable.

322
00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:39.299
Can't keep her earrings on her head.

323
00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:41.759
They slip backwards through time.

324
00:22:43.740 --> 00:22:50.400
Something that is very successful about this. story is that romance between Flower Child and Bellboy.

325
00:22:50.460 --> 00:22:57.059
And as short as her appearance is, as you mentioned, Nathan, the scenes we have of them together are incredibly short.

326
00:22:57.359 --> 00:23:03.420
And yet they, at least in my mind, they cement that, yeah, this is a pre-existing relationship.

327
00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:04.500
They really love each other.

328
00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:05.460
They really care for each other.

329
00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:12.599
Something I then love which feeds off that is when Belbo gets back to the circus and sees Morgana.

330
00:23:12.660 --> 00:23:16.259
He thinks she's flower child, like he's he's that desperate to see her.

331
00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:22.319
But then when he meets Ace, you know, if this had been Joe Grant, they would have developed a romance between them.

332
00:23:22.380 --> 00:23:31.259
Whereas with Ace, they don't, they don't have to develop a romance for her to have a connection with a male character.

333
00:23:31.319 --> 00:23:37.680
You know, she gets a connection with him through robotics because she's like, this is, you know, this is a really neat control unit.

334
00:23:37.740 --> 00:23:43.019
And yeah, that scene where he says, you know, I'll distract them while you get away.

335
00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:45.960
Yeah, I think that is really well performed by Sophie.

336
00:23:46.019 --> 00:23:49.079
I think another really good performance in that scene where he finally does it.

337
00:23:49.140 --> 00:23:58.799
Of course, Bellboy himself and his performance, you know, you used to be a really talented clown and then the chief clown hits him and he says, I'm not helping you anymore.

338
00:23:58.859 --> 00:24:00.359
And does it.

339
00:24:00.420 --> 00:24:04.500
Ian Reddington is the chief clown, you know, all the way through, he's been really nasty.

340
00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:08.339
The look on his face when Bellboy does that, he's actually disturbed for a moment.

341
00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:11.819
But then, but then he puts the mask back on.

342
00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:15.119
And the hand and Brendan's doing the hand right now too.

343
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:17.640
Ian Reddington is the centre of the dark centre of this.

344
00:24:17.700 --> 00:24:32.640
Well, you essentially have Bellboy who has the job of carrying that deeper theme about the loss of innocence, of the generation of the 1960s.

345
00:24:32.700 --> 00:24:37.259
Like, he's the one who essentially explains to us that that's what this story is about.

346
00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:43.559
And the doctor encapsulates it as, you know, a fun hippie circus gets turned into a machine for killing people.

347
00:24:43.559 --> 00:24:46.319
And that's what that generation did.

348
00:24:46.380 --> 00:25:08.460
You know, they were playing and amusing themselves and so proud of of their creativity and their, you know, freedom from the previous generation's streatures and then they got to a certain age and just turned into sort of gruesome capitalists, who, you know, chewed their way through the demography of the society that they found themselves in.

349
00:25:08.579 --> 00:25:11.579
And he's the one who tells us that.

350
00:25:11.640 --> 00:25:21.660
And then I think the chief clown, who's the only one who doesn't feel some kind of anxiety about where they've found themselves.

351
00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:30.420
Morgana is unhappy with what's happened to the circus and says that the ringmaster is angry all the time.

352
00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:38.400
In a very kind of, you know, angry 80s way, but there is some kind of loss of innocence behind that anger.

353
00:25:38.460 --> 00:25:48.779
And the only one who's really wholeheartedly into what he's doing is the chief clown and he's the one who kills the others, you know, he is...

354
00:25:48.779 --> 00:25:51.480
And with the ringmaster, I'm not far behind him.

355
00:25:51.539 --> 00:25:56.819
Yeah, well, but he does, he's the one who kills the ringmaster. and Morgana as well.

356
00:25:56.880 --> 00:25:59.940
Yeah, it's kind of a, it's kind of a sliding scale.

357
00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:04.259
Like if you were to look at it in terms of role-playing game morality.

358
00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:06.779
The chief clown is your chaotic evil.

359
00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:10.619
The, um, the ringmaster is probably your neutral evil.

360
00:26:10.680 --> 00:26:14.460
And then Morgana is.

361
00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:17.220
Does it disturb other listeners that...

362
00:26:17.220 --> 00:26:20.640
Brendan has a hierarchy of evil.

363
00:26:20.700 --> 00:26:23.220
No, I actually think you're quite...

364
00:26:23.220 --> 00:26:24.779
I think you're quite wrong, Brendan.

365
00:26:24.839 --> 00:26:28.859
I think that I think that, you know, that hippie circus thing is chaotic good.

366
00:26:28.859 --> 00:26:30.539
We're all into letting it hang out.

367
00:26:30.599 --> 00:26:33.900
And they've now turned into a machine.

368
00:26:33.900 --> 00:26:35.759
And Bell boy calls it a machine.

369
00:26:35.819 --> 00:26:44.039
This, you know, yeah, it's because Nathan and I were alive and, and, you know, semi-conscious in the 80s and we were both at school.

370
00:26:44.099 --> 00:27:00.240
But the, our parents were this generation and we had friends who, this, and we'd just seen all of this way before Matt Wiener's madmen, remembrance of the dialect showed us that the 60s were not the cool place, but with the slow jazz that our parents said they were.

371
00:27:00.299 --> 00:27:07.259
This is about the death of the hippie movement or the death of the ideals of the hippie movement and what Britain has become and America as well.

372
00:27:07.319 --> 00:27:13.200
It's just, you know, it helps that you've actually got US actors in this with genuine accents, not just doing them.

373
00:27:13.380 --> 00:27:18.359
So when we saw with remembrance that it wasn't mod cool, but it was racist hot.

374
00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:19.920
Yeah.

375
00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:21.059
Mushal McLuan.

376
00:27:21.119 --> 00:27:22.500
The hippies.

377
00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:23.819
Oh, God.

378
00:27:23.880 --> 00:27:25.200
When we were young.

379
00:27:25.259 --> 00:27:32.880
Okay, we saw the tail end of them, but they were putting on the Donovan albums and you would hear Sergeant Pepper and the White album and all the rest of it.

380
00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:42.839
And our parents would talk about, or you'd see on TV, people talking about, you know, that generation, which we spoke of free love and we, you know, and they said, and their hopes for the future.

381
00:27:42.900 --> 00:27:52.619
But what that whole movement, say for free love, was actually all about men having what they wanted, and women being entirely subjugated to atavistic libidos.

382
00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:54.720
And this is this is the natural outcome.

383
00:27:54.779 --> 00:28:01.980
I was just going to say, because it's the same generation that produced people like Steve Jobs, George Lucas, cross yourself.

384
00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:08.700
And Richard Branson, who was a big deal in the early 80s rising star with his virgin chat.

385
00:28:08.759 --> 00:28:14.519
I mean, how, actually, how creepy is using the whole brand of virgin anyway?

386
00:28:14.579 --> 00:28:17.160
It was like we haven't forgotten what Free Love was about, mate.

387
00:28:17.220 --> 00:28:17.759
It was about you.

388
00:28:17.819 --> 00:28:18.960
Wasn't it?

389
00:28:19.019 --> 00:28:24.599
Yeah, it's the self-same people who all spoke about workers and managers having equal pay.

390
00:28:24.599 --> 00:28:27.720
Which was another part of that late 60s movement.

391
00:28:27.779 --> 00:28:32.880
These are the same people who are subjugating whole factory towns under Thatcher.

392
00:28:32.940 --> 00:28:44.640
Um, and then firing them or going, moving their businesses off to China or moving them off to near Asia, Hong Kong when Hong Kong was closing, of course, in 10 years, they were starting to make deals with the mainland China.

393
00:28:44.700 --> 00:28:52.559
We now find it very easy to blame other governments and other regimes for their way of thinking, but we really assisted them to get to where they are.

394
00:28:52.619 --> 00:28:55.859
Now, we are really, really tired with this.

395
00:28:56.160 --> 00:28:57.960
As a culture.

396
00:28:58.019 --> 00:29:01.200
And Doctor Who was one of the 1st media pieces to pick up on it?

397
00:29:01.259 --> 00:29:06.000
And also, considering the idea of the production machine.

398
00:29:06.059 --> 00:29:11.940
I think Doctor Who was the only weekly drama left that was an in-house production for the BBC.

399
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:14.460
It was still made, it was, yeah, it was still made at television centre.

400
00:29:14.519 --> 00:29:18.779
Whereas everything else was being made externally, in a production machine.

401
00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:23.460
Stephen Fry on a bit of fry and lorry lampoons it brilliantly at one point.

402
00:29:23.579 --> 00:29:25.619
There's this sketch where he's a waiter.

403
00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:28.319
Can he sees someone in charge of BBC one?

404
00:29:28.380 --> 00:29:30.359
It's always Hugh Bloody Lorry, is it?

405
00:29:30.420 --> 00:29:32.460
It was some kind of guest role.

406
00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:33.359
I don't think it was.

407
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:33.960
Emma Thompson.

408
00:29:34.019 --> 00:29:35.220
Yes, he was Emma Thompson.

409
00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:44.279
But when he's talking to him about, oh, you know, the BBC's going so well and you're getting so many other people involved, he looks down at the table and says, oh, you've only got a knife and a fork.

410
00:29:44.579 --> 00:29:47.460
And the guy says yes.

411
00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:49.740
Oh, well, we can't have this.

412
00:29:49.799 --> 00:29:56.819
And Stephen goes and gets a giant garbage bag full of plastic cutlery and dumps it on the table and says, there you are.

413
00:29:56.880 --> 00:29:57.960
Now you've got choice.

414
00:29:58.019 --> 00:29:59.519
Okay, you can't find anything.

415
00:29:59.579 --> 00:30:04.200
Everything's the same and there's far too much of it, but at least you've got choice and wanders off.

416
00:30:04.980 --> 00:30:08.460
And this was what they were being made by the BBC.

417
00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:13.259
And Jonathan Powell chortling away like a god of Ragnarok.

418
00:30:13.799 --> 00:30:20.160
But it also reminds me of something I once asked my mother, and it could have been in relation to the story.

419
00:30:20.220 --> 00:30:23.339
I turned to I turned to her and said, as a kid.

420
00:30:23.400 --> 00:30:25.319
Do all black men rap, mummy?

421
00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:29.519
Were you and dad hippies, I said.

422
00:30:29.579 --> 00:30:34.380
And my mother's response and it gains more relevance with each passing year.

423
00:30:34.440 --> 00:30:37.440
No, darling, we were far too poor to be hippies.

424
00:30:37.500 --> 00:30:38.279
Exactly.

425
00:30:38.339 --> 00:30:41.940
They had a term, rich hippies, very precisely the people we've talked about.

426
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:45.299
You see it now, you've got Bono and what's his face?

427
00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:56.039
With £600000000 minimum each, that's the known worth of Mr. Orange sunglasses, telling us all, you know, give a bit more money to the hot Africans.

428
00:30:56.099 --> 00:31:01.859
How about you give everything you've got and live there like the rest of us, and then we'll apportionately do the same thing.

429
00:31:01.920 --> 00:31:06.180
Yeah, well, Bono, is it Bono in that band in, sorry, is it?

430
00:31:06.180 --> 00:31:07.380
I don't know what band it is either.

431
00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:10.619
Is it Bono in you 2 who wears the hat and that's his thing.

432
00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:11.880
He wears a hat or is that edge?

433
00:31:11.940 --> 00:31:16.859
Anyway, one of them wears a... practically drawing their pensions when I was clubbing.

434
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:20.640
How could they how could they be called the edge?

435
00:31:20.759 --> 00:31:22.500
Is that like doing it in front of a salad?

436
00:31:22.619 --> 00:31:25.859
But one of, can we get to the store?

437
00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:29.759
Anyway, one of you 2 wears a hat.

438
00:31:30.539 --> 00:31:45.000
And for the live 20 thing, the 20th anniversary of Live 8 a few years ago, they forgot their hat in Ireland and had it flown over on its own plane to a concert, in part about global warming and damaging the environment.

439
00:31:45.660 --> 00:31:48.660
Yes, we can now get onto the stores later.

440
00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:51.359
And we are now at the river fruit, aren't we?

441
00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:52.140
The state of that.

442
00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:53.099
Well, I just...

443
00:31:53.099 --> 00:31:54.119
Don't call Matthew Ward.

444
00:31:54.359 --> 00:32:01.200
I was just going to say that you, as we've been discussing, you know, gender fluidity in casting is nothing new to Doctor.

445
00:32:01.259 --> 00:32:03.660
You know who was originally cast as the stores lady?

446
00:32:03.720 --> 00:32:04.740
It wasn't piggy mounted all.

447
00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:05.460
Brian bless it.

448
00:32:05.460 --> 00:32:05.940
I wish.

449
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:06.660
No, that was last week.

450
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:07.500
It was Bill Fraser.

451
00:32:07.619 --> 00:32:08.400
Oh, wow.

452
00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:10.200
General Grugger fame.

453
00:32:10.259 --> 00:32:12.119
Yeah, it was still going to be the stall's lady, though.

454
00:32:12.180 --> 00:32:16.319
Yeah, yeah, but he turned it down because he would not be allowed to kick Keth McCulloch.

455
00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:19.500
She's terrific.

456
00:32:19.559 --> 00:32:21.299
Oh my god, she's amazing, Peggy.

457
00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:23.460
She is, just to get back to what we were saying.

458
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:29.700
She is the casual viewer of Doctor Who at this time, sitting at home, thinking, you're all a bit...

459
00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:31.079
Is there no end to you, weirdo?

460
00:32:31.140 --> 00:32:33.539
I thought you were one of the normal ones.

461
00:32:33.960 --> 00:32:34.799
Debbie what?

462
00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:35.519
Exactly.

463
00:32:35.579 --> 00:32:37.200
She was the Debbie Watling all the time.

464
00:32:37.259 --> 00:32:47.339
But yeah, no, she's, she's our mum's and dad, the people who weren't involved in this hyperbole, ridiculous ego fonting that was resulted in the Bransons and...

465
00:32:47.339 --> 00:32:47.759
Yeah.

466
00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:56.640
Well, she's a normal person and she's, her planet is being used for the sake of this machine for killing people and she resents it.

467
00:32:56.700 --> 00:32:58.200
She doesn't like those people.

468
00:32:58.259 --> 00:33:05.460
And so originally when we look at her, we kind of think, oh, she's a norm, you know, she doesn't get it, sort of thing.

469
00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:06.359
It's a not wee, yeah.

470
00:33:07.019 --> 00:33:16.859
But I do think that we get sympathy for her at the end because what she objects to in the circus is that the circus is horrible, you know, that the circus is awful.

471
00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:18.359
And she's right to object to it.

472
00:33:18.420 --> 00:33:21.119
So it's a wonderful comedy performance.

473
00:33:21.180 --> 00:33:27.420
It's a lovely, lovely, Sophie Aldred apparently coached her for upper middle-class accent.

474
00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:34.319
I think my favourite moment with her is when, you know, the Wiz kid rides up.

475
00:33:34.380 --> 00:33:36.299
Oh, you're a nice, respectable young man.

476
00:33:36.359 --> 00:33:37.019
How can I help?

477
00:33:37.140 --> 00:33:39.359
Yes, can you tell me how to get to the psychic circus?

478
00:33:39.420 --> 00:33:45.539
And the whole point of that scene is just Peggy Mount's face at the end of it, like, oh, much like Debbie Watling at you.

479
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:46.140
Yeah.

480
00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:49.319
Really just anytime she spotted me in a crowd.

481
00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:53.400
She always had a good time before she showed up, didn't she?

482
00:33:53.640 --> 00:33:56.339
It'd been a lot going on in the green room.

483
00:33:56.400 --> 00:33:58.559
I need a fag, love.

484
00:33:58.619 --> 00:34:00.000
I'm here.

485
00:34:00.059 --> 00:34:01.799
Yeah, yeah.

486
00:34:01.859 --> 00:34:11.820
I'm thinking now of the suicide nets around the Apple factories in China, you know, to stop the workers jumping out of the windows and killing themselves. just bounce straight back up to their seats.

487
00:34:12.599 --> 00:34:16.619
It's the same. the same thing with with the 80s.

488
00:34:16.679 --> 00:34:20.519
I think this is more than any of the other stories we've seen or maybe, no, they all add together.

489
00:34:20.579 --> 00:34:33.780
The gods of Ragnarok thing, if you like, is, in fact, Branson and Simon Cowell, and Cheryl Cole, and possibly Madonna, because she was always made of stone anyway, and always ripped off other people's material.

490
00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:39.780
But they are, they even, they even came up with what television was going to be, the next millennium.

491
00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:40.920
Yeah, X Factor.

492
00:34:40.980 --> 00:34:42.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

493
00:34:42.179 --> 00:34:44.219
Didn't exist when this was made.

494
00:34:44.340 --> 00:34:46.139
It's quite odd watching this now.

495
00:34:46.260 --> 00:34:48.000
This feels really contemporary.

496
00:34:48.119 --> 00:34:54.239
I have, I very briefly worked on one season of The Voice, but in pre-production.

497
00:34:54.300 --> 00:34:58.139
I haven't worked on any other talent shows like that, but having spoken to people who do.

498
00:34:58.199 --> 00:35:01.679
It's a tight turnaround, it's ruthless.

499
00:35:01.739 --> 00:35:05.400
You know, you've got to get you've got to keep the audience entertained.

500
00:35:05.460 --> 00:35:06.960
So yeah, you're absolutely right, Richard.

501
00:35:07.019 --> 00:35:10.619
It predicts that kind of thing.

502
00:35:10.679 --> 00:35:15.239
And, you know, at the time, we had things like talent time, young talent time and what have you.

503
00:35:15.300 --> 00:35:23.699
So there were panel entertainment shows, but it's not rapid fire. the way it is now, and indeed, the way it is in greater show in the galaxy.

504
00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:30.179
You know, when there's something not going on, we keep cutting to the human avatars of the gods saying, oh, something must happen soon.

505
00:35:30.300 --> 00:35:34.139
But let's not forget that these people are flawed in the narrative.

506
00:35:34.199 --> 00:35:35.880
Stephen M is not saying they're our heroes.

507
00:35:35.940 --> 00:35:41.820
The real failures in the narrative of the group, a Bellboy and Kingpin.

508
00:35:41.940 --> 00:35:45.059
And one of them never even got the role of Doctor Who, did he?

509
00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:45.900
Yes.

510
00:35:45.900 --> 00:35:46.260
Yes.

511
00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:46.860
Yes.

512
00:35:46.920 --> 00:35:49.260
Um, so that's kingpin, um, Christopher Jewry.

513
00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:49.980
Jewry, yes.

514
00:35:50.039 --> 00:35:55.500
Yeah, auditioned for the role of silver, and that's why he kind of got a callback for this because they liked him, just not as sweet.

515
00:35:55.619 --> 00:35:57.539
Yeah, sweetie, but you can see he never would have played the doctor.

516
00:35:57.599 --> 00:36:04.079
Apparently he said, oh, I had so much fun fiddling with the knobs in between takes and you could see Sophie Aldred's ears prick up at that one.

517
00:36:04.139 --> 00:36:14.579
But no, they're the flaccid hippies, much like the descending tent at the end that, you know, they gave in to self-indulgence and self-pity and egoistic introspection.

518
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:28.619
But that was also pretty much the only way you could deal with the calumny of this deflation of expectation that in fact, the world just went on to hyper capitalism.

519
00:36:28.619 --> 00:36:33.179
And these people who spoke of these things, started making TED talks.

520
00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:34.980
Okay, they do that now.

521
00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:42.239
But that, but that, that thing of the monstrous ego and the, the selling up the Anthony Rollman style of just believe, and you can have it.

522
00:36:42.300 --> 00:36:53.760
That came straight from the 60s, the new age movement that started about 8081, which was a hanger on from all those people who were let down by what didn't happen.

523
00:36:53.880 --> 00:37:02.340
So it all becomes sort of self-help nonsense in the service of allowing people to exploit others more efficiently, I think.

524
00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:04.019
Very efficiently.

525
00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:08.639
It's a perfect simulacra for what's happened from communist to capitalist China.

526
00:37:08.699 --> 00:37:12.179
Yeah, and Captain Cook, even outwardly criticises that.

527
00:37:12.239 --> 00:37:15.659
You know, he says these hippies with their let it all hang out nonsense.

528
00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:24.179
And indeed, he is more successful than them for most of the story in exploiting others, you know, he tricks gnawed into going in first.

529
00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:28.500
He tricks WizKid into going in 1st because he reads as a colonialist, doesn't he?

530
00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:29.280
He is wearing a piffle.

531
00:37:29.340 --> 00:37:35.820
But he's also one of, he's also John Major and the whole party, whoever, yeah, he's also what's happening right now.

532
00:37:35.880 --> 00:37:49.500
And he's the reason they're in charge, because they're self-same people who believed in a beautiful future, when they don't get it, run back to the disproportionately aggressive parent or teacher model and go, well, it didn't work out.

533
00:37:49.559 --> 00:37:50.760
We were wrong, spank us.

534
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:54.840
I mean, of course, you know, it wasn't lovely to see Roberta Tovey as well.

535
00:37:54.900 --> 00:37:57.059
And as the child god.

536
00:37:57.119 --> 00:37:58.199
Or as...

537
00:37:58.199 --> 00:38:01.199
So the gods are really spectacular.

538
00:38:01.260 --> 00:38:03.420
They really work, don't they?

539
00:38:03.480 --> 00:38:04.440
They shouldn't and they do.

540
00:38:04.500 --> 00:38:08.760
We decided that the mother looks like Eric Idol in drag for some reason.

541
00:38:09.780 --> 00:38:21.000
They're super menacing, and it is this thing that Wyatt did in his last story where the characters are allegorical and symbolic, and so they don't behave normally.

542
00:38:21.059 --> 00:38:24.960
And the family are really, really fabulously menacing.

543
00:38:25.019 --> 00:38:30.900
And they're one visible characteristic, I think, because they're from the 1950s, aren't they?

544
00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:33.300
They're an early television audience is an idea.

545
00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:35.699
Yeah, but they're hungry.

546
00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:37.199
They're always eating.

547
00:38:37.260 --> 00:38:41.579
So they're eating crisps, they're eating ice creams, they're hungry to see things.

548
00:38:41.639 --> 00:38:45.360
That's a theme in these seasons as well, isn't it?

549
00:38:45.420 --> 00:38:51.360
We're going to see that with the constable in Ghost Light as well. wanting to see.

550
00:38:51.480 --> 00:38:53.699
But about the unending appetite.

551
00:38:53.760 --> 00:38:55.260
That's the casual viewer.

552
00:38:55.320 --> 00:38:58.920
But they end up being really, really remarkable.

553
00:38:58.980 --> 00:39:02.460
And and I think their role.

554
00:39:02.519 --> 00:39:13.139
Like there's one scene, which I think is absolutely superb, which is that scene around the Cliffhanger to episode 3 where you have this sort of mounting sense of threat.

555
00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:25.619
So you've got Captain Cook finally ushers them all into the ring, triggers Mags's transformation into a werewolf, and then you get the doctor being chased around by the werewolf, and that's where the cliffhanger comes in.

556
00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:34.619
But by that point, we've, we get a little moment of the family showing up there 10 out of 10 thing because they're really enjoying this part of the show.

557
00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:40.019
But by the time they come back into play, we've more or less forgotten about them.

558
00:39:40.079 --> 00:39:45.420
And then they stand up in front of the doctor and do the glowy eye thing and push him down back into the ring.

559
00:39:45.420 --> 00:39:51.000
And then there's mags instantly and the whole thing is going for some minutes, I think, into episode four.

560
00:39:51.059 --> 00:39:56.039
It's not like a cliffhanger where someone comes in and says no way.

561
00:39:56.159 --> 00:40:16.019
And then the whole threat is, you know, kind of they do a Davison. everybody. where the whole threat's diffused, it keeps building to a really fantastic climax and the death of Captain Cook, and that wonderful, the spinning lamp, the spinning light that we see at the very end of it.

562
00:40:16.079 --> 00:40:19.980
And Alan Waring is so careful in choreographing that.

563
00:40:20.039 --> 00:40:28.800
Like he creates some really, really beautiful images throughout the episode, but that's a really, really well choreographed action scene.

564
00:40:28.860 --> 00:40:32.159
And it's Mark Ayres' 1st music for the program.

565
00:40:32.219 --> 00:40:33.719
And it's amazing.

566
00:40:33.780 --> 00:40:36.599
I wanted to say the score is gorgeous, isn't it?

567
00:40:36.659 --> 00:40:40.559
I really think Mark is makes this work so well.

568
00:40:40.619 --> 00:40:47.159
Yeah, and of course, we should mention, ever since then, he's been a champion for the sound on Doctor Who.

569
00:40:47.219 --> 00:40:49.380
And so for all the classic series, DVD releases.

570
00:40:49.500 --> 00:40:51.420
He's been the one who's tidied up the sound.

571
00:40:51.480 --> 00:41:01.559
There's some fascinating documentaries on some of the discs about that and he'll sometimes say, yeah, I've done this from multiple sources and the 1st 10 minutes of this audio is really good, but I've used the 2nd 10 minutes from here.

572
00:41:01.619 --> 00:41:08.820
Um, you know, so if you are interested in audio and video production, any talk by Mark Ayres is fascinating.

573
00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:12.840
That scene with Mags killing Captain Cook.

574
00:41:12.900 --> 00:41:22.260
Something I really love about it is at one point where she's chasing the doctor, the doctor says to her, you know, I know this is hard for you, but you don't have to kill.

575
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:24.539
You don't, and he keeps saying to her, you don't have to kill.

576
00:41:24.599 --> 00:41:28.019
And then when she turns on the captain, he's still imploring her, no, don't kill him.

577
00:41:28.079 --> 00:41:29.340
He's aghast.

578
00:41:29.400 --> 00:41:33.780
He gets a reaction shot to Mag's killing the captain because you don't really see it.

579
00:41:33.840 --> 00:41:38.219
She kind of leaps at him, but they end up off screen.

580
00:41:38.280 --> 00:41:40.139
You know where that shot comes from, don't you?

581
00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:42.659
I saw it in 1975 on telly.

582
00:41:42.719 --> 00:41:51.420
It's a film called The Seven Faces of Dr. Lao by George Powell, which is based on a much, much smarter book, and that what you're both just saying.

583
00:41:51.480 --> 00:41:54.300
That's the linchpin, the kingpin, the linchpin of this story.

584
00:41:54.360 --> 00:41:56.159
We are not wrong.

585
00:41:56.219 --> 00:42:21.179
The narrative is about casual viewing of horrible things and how we all sit back and that hopes and dreams get subsumed by, you know, by sitting there eating creamed corn and custard, tending it's delicious. 7 paces of Dr. Lau based on a book by Charles Finney called The Circus of Dr. Lau, which I have to admit, I haven't read, but looking it up, it's the story of some town in Arizona, I don't know, caboose, poke, or whatever it was called.

586
00:42:21.239 --> 00:42:26.820
And it's denizens were completely oblivious to the extraordinary things that Dr. Lau brought to them.

587
00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:31.920
And yes, he's got the long fingernails and the whole Sax Rome, Fu Manchu thing.

588
00:42:31.980 --> 00:42:34.139
But it's a peace take of all of that as well.

589
00:42:34.199 --> 00:42:49.920
So what happens is the entire town watch, the reenactment of the fall of an ancient city, and it might have actually been the entire town watching itself because it's quite clever when the way it's done is you're not sure whether it's actually happening or whether they're viewing it or whether they're wanting to sing it themselves.

590
00:42:49.980 --> 00:42:52.260
It's a very Doctor Who tropish thing to do.

591
00:42:52.320 --> 00:43:08.639
But there is a werewolf character in it called Maggie Slozny, or Mag, Maggie Slozny, and the story is really about how that generation screwed up, you know, watching, screwed up, though, and they talk, he's talking about post-war and post-Corean war when it came out.

592
00:43:08.699 --> 00:43:10.019
It's not a good film.

593
00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:13.559
It's got Tony Randall from the Odd Couple in Asian drag.

594
00:43:13.619 --> 00:43:14.340
Really?

595
00:43:14.340 --> 00:43:15.420
Yeah.

596
00:43:15.480 --> 00:43:17.280
I liked it better when he was a gremlin.

597
00:43:17.400 --> 00:43:18.300
I liked him.

598
00:43:18.360 --> 00:43:19.619
No.

599
00:43:19.619 --> 00:43:20.820
Seeing that?

600
00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:21.900
It's in gremlins too.

601
00:43:21.960 --> 00:43:22.559
Is he?

602
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:27.719
He's in one of my favourite films of all time, which is done with love with Renee Wither or whatever her name is.

603
00:43:27.780 --> 00:43:29.760
Zell...

604
00:43:29.820 --> 00:43:30.719
Renee Zellweger?

605
00:43:30.780 --> 00:43:33.360
Renaissance, Zeppelin Weger.

606
00:43:33.420 --> 00:43:39.960
And that bloke that likes vomiting in train in lavatories, yes.

607
00:43:40.019 --> 00:43:41.159
Ewan McGregor.

608
00:43:41.219 --> 00:43:43.019
She's really well cast.

609
00:43:43.079 --> 00:43:46.559
He really miscast, but it's the most perfect take on the early 60s.

610
00:43:46.679 --> 00:43:49.619
And Tony Randall plays the evil media magnet.

611
00:43:49.679 --> 00:43:53.219
Oh, yeah, sticks to every fridge surface.

612
00:43:53.460 --> 00:43:55.559
He's Jonathan Price.

613
00:43:55.619 --> 00:43:59.519
Well, I mean, I think, can you tell people what that is?

614
00:43:59.639 --> 00:44:03.719
Steve Jobs, Jonathan Price was Steve Jobs in that, wasn't he?

615
00:44:03.780 --> 00:44:08.699
Brendan posted a lovely thing of a Murdoch paper review of Tomorrow Never Dies at the time.

616
00:44:08.760 --> 00:44:11.699
It was actually Oh, and he doesn't exist on this podcast.

617
00:44:12.840 --> 00:44:14.340
Tag.

618
00:44:14.400 --> 00:44:15.719
I'm his proxy.

619
00:44:15.780 --> 00:44:19.559
So the magic scene at the end with Sylvester doing magic.

620
00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:23.699
That when his pants are almost blown off over his head and he tries not to flinch.

621
00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:25.440
That's a magic scene.

622
00:44:25.800 --> 00:44:29.219
I'm glad he's wearing the brown chick trousers.

623
00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:30.780
I wouldn't have made it out of that scene intact.

624
00:44:30.840 --> 00:44:33.119
Well, you know, how silver always tells that story.

625
00:44:33.179 --> 00:44:35.880
I didn't know the explosion was going to be so big, but I just kept walking.

626
00:44:35.940 --> 00:44:38.099
I didn't even know if I had any clothes at the back afterwards.

627
00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:39.300
Turns out what it was.

628
00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:41.699
They were just going to use air mortars.

629
00:44:41.760 --> 00:44:43.380
But the air mortars didn't work.

630
00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:45.300
So they said, fine, we'll use actual explosives.

631
00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:51.420
But nobody told SEL that it was going to be actual explosives, which is why it's so much bigger than he was expecting.

632
00:44:51.480 --> 00:44:54.960
It is an iconic moment for that doctor though, isn't it?

633
00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:58.440
Where he walks away and just doesn't flinch as it explodes behind him.

634
00:44:58.500 --> 00:45:01.500
For any other doctor, it would have been a metaphor for the end of his career.

635
00:45:01.679 --> 00:45:06.059
But did you know Silvie's the only doctor that was working full-time?

636
00:45:06.119 --> 00:45:12.119
Janet Fielding loves making jokes about Peter always buggering off to another. another gig in the middle.

637
00:45:12.179 --> 00:45:13.139
Yeah, yeah.

638
00:45:13.199 --> 00:45:17.579
But it's actually Silver's the only one of the original doctors who's pretty much constantly been in work.

639
00:45:17.639 --> 00:45:21.780
And even while this was on, he called this his summer job, because he was always working.

640
00:45:21.840 --> 00:45:28.980
So I would say this to his critics to say, oh, he's he's undecipherable in principle in your kind of order, and you cannot understand a word he says.

641
00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:35.760
And I did find when I was young watching this, I did really did find the accent hard to follow because we're not British, so we're not used to hearing it.

642
00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:40.739
And he does, you know, throw away most of his lines, much like this podcast.

643
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:46.320
But, but, but, but he has real gravitas, there's real truth and feeling.

644
00:45:46.380 --> 00:45:50.340
And I'm finding him utterly hypnotic, I don't look away.

645
00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:54.360
Mostly there's something else on screen that grabs your attention, even when the doctor's there.

646
00:45:54.420 --> 00:46:01.739
But he's got that billy quality of, I'm always watching Billy, and I'm all, well, Barbara, and I'm always, and I'm always watching Sylves.

647
00:46:01.800 --> 00:46:11.639
Yeah, I find something I've looked back on, especially with that moment with Mags and after her transformation where he's, he's kind of comforting her and leads her away.

648
00:46:11.699 --> 00:46:19.079
If you look back at time and the Rani, when, you know, quite understandably, his performance was still very fluid and all over the place.

649
00:46:19.139 --> 00:46:25.079
When Bayes says, no, I'll stay, as the doctor pushes Faroon out of the room.

650
00:46:25.139 --> 00:46:26.639
But he was meant to be Colin Baker.

651
00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:35.039
But as the doctor pushes Faru out of the room, he turns Silv turns back to Donald Pickering and just gives him this amazing look.

652
00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:47.280
And it's what we have since commented on is sort of the doctor's look of sorrow and shock and it's the same look he gives mags in this after she's killed the captain.

653
00:46:47.340 --> 00:46:48.480
It's this.

654
00:46:49.800 --> 00:47:00.840
It's this look of sadness and a little bit helplessness, like he, you know, I'm all powerful, but there's nothing I can do in this situation kind of thing.

655
00:47:00.900 --> 00:47:05.219
I never, have never understood, and it's possibly because Silv was my doctor.

656
00:47:05.280 --> 00:47:08.099
I've never understood the people who say he can't act.

657
00:47:08.219 --> 00:47:11.099
Watching season 26 the other week.

658
00:47:11.159 --> 00:47:15.840
I do think there's one, there is one moment of anger.

659
00:47:15.900 --> 00:47:18.179
He gets wrong in his whole tenure.

660
00:47:18.239 --> 00:47:19.199
In Ghostlight.

661
00:47:19.320 --> 00:47:21.599
No, actually, it's in battlefield.

662
00:47:21.960 --> 00:47:24.000
But I'll discuss that.

663
00:47:24.059 --> 00:47:25.500
I'll discuss that next week.

664
00:47:25.559 --> 00:47:27.900
Here, I think he pitches the performance perfectly.

665
00:47:27.900 --> 00:47:30.119
In the scene where he's doing like a tent.

666
00:47:30.179 --> 00:47:31.260
You know, like a tent.

667
00:47:31.320 --> 00:47:34.619
In the scene where he's doing magic with the gods of Ragnarok.

668
00:47:34.679 --> 00:47:36.239
Love that so much.

669
00:47:36.539 --> 00:47:43.139
That's a piss take of Blackpool, Pier, and Ken and Dottie, Ken Dodd, and he's earlier career, actually.

670
00:47:43.199 --> 00:47:46.739
There's that bit in the TARDIS in episode one where he's juggling.

671
00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:49.199
Do you know he had to turn to balls disappears?

672
00:47:49.260 --> 00:47:51.000
He had to learn to...

673
00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:55.320
That book was actually the book he was using to learn to juggle.

674
00:47:55.380 --> 00:47:55.920
Everyone to shoot.

675
00:47:55.980 --> 00:47:56.940
No, he's never done it.

676
00:47:57.000 --> 00:47:58.380
Because at the read through.

677
00:47:58.440 --> 00:48:02.519
He reads in the script, the doctor juggles and he just looks up and says, I can't juggle.

678
00:48:02.579 --> 00:48:03.539
And...

679
00:48:03.539 --> 00:48:05.099
But Chuck can Campbell in that.

680
00:48:05.219 --> 00:48:09.659
But they're like, we wrote this because you were in a circus.

681
00:48:09.719 --> 00:48:10.920
He's like, yeah, but I never juggled.

682
00:48:10.980 --> 00:48:12.360
I hammered nails up my nose.

683
00:48:12.420 --> 00:48:14.699
Yeah, it's something bummer.

684
00:48:14.760 --> 00:48:17.280
You know, you should try it sometimes as a video for that.

685
00:48:17.340 --> 00:48:18.360
Brenda's got it, right?

686
00:48:18.659 --> 00:48:19.679
Right in front of the salad.

687
00:48:20.579 --> 00:48:27.179
But during that magic scene, he actually had a professional magician called Jeffrey Durham...

688
00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:28.739
Yes, had to take him away to a dark place.

689
00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:29.639
Yeah, yeah.

690
00:48:29.699 --> 00:48:31.079
The set was cleared except for those.

691
00:48:31.079 --> 00:48:31.800
Yes, it can't be seen.

692
00:48:31.860 --> 00:48:33.659
It was proper magician's circle stuff.

693
00:48:33.719 --> 00:48:36.360
But some of the secret men's business.

694
00:48:36.420 --> 00:48:38.460
Some of the other tricks.

695
00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:45.420
The escapology trick was actually something that Sylv had seen done in Portugal and said to Jeffrey, can you teach me how to do that?

696
00:48:45.480 --> 00:48:50.159
The candle trick that he does was taught to him by one of his sons.

697
00:48:50.280 --> 00:48:51.480
Oh, how lovely.

698
00:48:51.539 --> 00:48:56.880
And, you know, his son kind of did it. during the rehearsal process and Saul said, hold on.

699
00:48:56.940 --> 00:49:00.179
Show me show me how you did that because I want to do it in the show.

700
00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:08.760
So the only tricks that was specified in the script was an escapology trick, which Silt said, I'll hang upside down and do it that way.

701
00:49:08.820 --> 00:49:12.480
And the gladiator's sword bit because that...

702
00:49:12.480 --> 00:49:13.559
Gladioli.

703
00:49:13.619 --> 00:49:14.280
Yeah, yeah.

704
00:49:14.340 --> 00:49:16.079
Just like carry on doctor, isn't it?

705
00:49:16.139 --> 00:49:17.519
The gladioli pulls out from it.

706
00:49:17.579 --> 00:49:17.760
Yeah.

707
00:49:17.820 --> 00:49:19.500
Yeah, that was a daffodil.

708
00:49:19.559 --> 00:49:24.960
You know, as a teenager, I was watching it for the 2nd and 3rd time.

709
00:49:25.019 --> 00:49:26.820
A fifth, sixth.

710
00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:29.639
Looking at where's the join, where's the join?

711
00:49:29.699 --> 00:49:30.239
Yeah, yeah.

712
00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:34.019
And then to find out, you know, no, most tricks were done properly.

713
00:49:34.079 --> 00:49:37.260
So was apparently nervous at the snake, but you just got to get on with it.

714
00:49:37.320 --> 00:49:38.460
It's amazing, isn't it?

715
00:49:38.579 --> 00:49:41.219
Where did he get the bit of precious metal that turns into a sword?

716
00:49:41.340 --> 00:49:42.239
Eileen Way?

717
00:49:42.300 --> 00:49:45.840
Is she one of the gods without keeping all the precious metal?

718
00:49:45.900 --> 00:49:47.820
You know, I just don't think it matters at all.

719
00:49:47.880 --> 00:49:49.440
No, it doesn't.

720
00:49:49.500 --> 00:49:50.039
It's lovely.

721
00:49:50.099 --> 00:49:55.260
It also shows this doctor is actually quite extraordinary and does fiddle around with time and space.

722
00:49:55.320 --> 00:49:57.719
You know, where does he get all that stuff out of the pockets?

723
00:49:57.780 --> 00:50:00.840
And, you know, how does he manipulate?

724
00:50:00.900 --> 00:50:10.619
I mean, he gets, how does he, the biggest trick of all is, how does he manage to time kingpins tossing cough of the eyepiece down?

725
00:50:10.619 --> 00:50:13.199
Down to catch it right at the right time?

726
00:50:13.199 --> 00:50:15.420
Because he's the great manipulator of...

727
00:50:15.420 --> 00:50:16.019
Well, that's it.

728
00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:17.519
The trickster.

729
00:50:17.579 --> 00:50:27.420
The piece of metal links this version of entertainment to gladiatorial entertainment, where people were killed, for the entertainment of the audience.

730
00:50:27.480 --> 00:50:31.860
And so it links, you know, modern television production to that.

731
00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:33.659
I think I think it's very good.

732
00:50:33.719 --> 00:50:34.619
I don't think it matters.

733
00:50:34.679 --> 00:50:37.860
I wouldn't lose any sleep over how he times that at all.

734
00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:49.260
No, and nor should you, but again, it's just a lovely thing of, This is all coming together in ways that you shouldn't normally be allowed to get away with in television narrative.

735
00:50:49.320 --> 00:50:52.260
Yeah, we meant to, with the truthiness of TV.

736
00:50:52.320 --> 00:50:58.440
The whole thing is so hyper real, though, and so allegorical that it doesn't really matter.

737
00:50:58.500 --> 00:51:05.219
And, you know, that tag scene at the very end where he says that he finds circus is somewhat sinister.

738
00:51:05.280 --> 00:51:13.920
That just makes it very clear that all along he's, he says something about rumours, does he, or something?

739
00:51:13.980 --> 00:51:16.260
Or is he just going because of the junk mail?

740
00:51:16.320 --> 00:51:18.119
But then it turns out that...

741
00:51:18.119 --> 00:51:19.619
He let the junk mail into the tunnel.

742
00:51:19.619 --> 00:51:20.099
Yes.

743
00:51:20.159 --> 00:51:21.480
It was completely planned.

744
00:51:21.539 --> 00:51:23.099
He is the great manipulator.

745
00:51:23.159 --> 00:51:26.639
Yeah, so he's Ace is saying that circus is a sinister.

746
00:51:26.699 --> 00:51:28.260
He's saying that they're fun.

747
00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:42.719
He's wonderful when he gets chosen to be in the ring and he looks really genuinely happy and excited to be able to have the chance to perform, but it's clear that just like with the Daleks, just like with the Cybermen.

748
00:51:42.780 --> 00:51:46.619
He's planned this all along all along.

749
00:51:46.679 --> 00:51:50.699
Just like this podcast, Brendan, you planned this all along, did you?

750
00:51:50.699 --> 00:51:51.360
You did.

751
00:51:51.420 --> 00:51:53.280
I am a god of Ragnarok.

752
00:51:53.340 --> 00:51:54.300
I'm the little girl.

753
00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:55.440
I'm not a little girl.

754
00:51:55.500 --> 00:51:56.820
He's a fruit salad, really.

755
00:51:56.880 --> 00:51:58.440
Off the podcast.

756
00:51:58.500 --> 00:52:00.539
If I get it to be the melons.

757
00:52:00.719 --> 00:52:06.179
So, gentlemen, it's time for our Jenny Laird awards for puzzling creative choice.

758
00:52:06.239 --> 00:52:10.619
I might start off and I'm gonna do this with a caveat of...

759
00:52:10.619 --> 00:52:16.739
The story I'm about to discuss, I think, is the worst story of the season, but it's still a 6 out of 10 from me.

760
00:52:17.280 --> 00:52:23.219
And I am just gonna say, I think Silver Nemesis needed one more script polish.

761
00:52:23.280 --> 00:52:29.940
As I, as I discussed last week, I just don't see the point of the Nazis in the story, I do think there's a bit too much wandering around.

762
00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:45.000
I'm so down on the nuts. all the time. so much for the tolerant left But, you know, also, there's the similarity and plot to remembrance of the Daleks.

763
00:52:45.059 --> 00:52:46.500
It's like at the 11th hour they've gone.

764
00:52:46.559 --> 00:52:48.480
Oh, we better put in a line about that, rub.

765
00:52:48.480 --> 00:52:49.500
We'll try and fix it.

766
00:52:49.559 --> 00:52:50.219
We'll lamp shirt.

767
00:52:50.280 --> 00:52:52.260
But that being said, I still really enjoy the story.

768
00:52:52.320 --> 00:52:55.079
I just feel it's the weakest of a strong season.

769
00:52:55.139 --> 00:52:56.880
So that's my Jenny Letterwater.

770
00:52:56.940 --> 00:52:59.639
Another polish for silver nemesis.

771
00:52:59.699 --> 00:53:02.340
It's probably just the weakest, but it is my favourite.

772
00:53:02.460 --> 00:53:03.000
It's not my favourite.

773
00:53:03.119 --> 00:53:05.159
They all favourites in their way, but it's just the most fun.

774
00:53:05.219 --> 00:53:07.079
It is an incredible amount of fun.

775
00:53:07.199 --> 00:53:11.099
I mean, with this season, I'm struggling to find anything.

776
00:53:11.159 --> 00:53:19.019
And I guess the thing that I would pinpoint isn't so much a creative choice as a visible problem with some of the scripts in this era.

777
00:53:19.079 --> 00:53:24.599
And that is, I do think that some of the edits in the happiness patrol don't quite work.

778
00:53:24.659 --> 00:53:27.840
There are some things where clearly stuff is cut for time.

779
00:53:27.900 --> 00:53:32.579
I think the most obvious one is the death of the candy man, which just ends up making no sense.

780
00:53:32.639 --> 00:53:40.139
There's some scenes in episode one that start at a very strange point where they've clearly cut the beginning of the scene for time.

781
00:53:40.260 --> 00:53:44.340
This is going to be a problem that sort of plagues the show from here on in.

782
00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:45.539
But I do.

783
00:53:45.599 --> 00:53:46.199
Sorry, sorry.

784
00:53:46.260 --> 00:53:51.179
And then those elongated scenes of those little cars going chuggy, chuggy, chuggy.

785
00:53:51.239 --> 00:53:55.019
The battery in my Lego train goes faster.

786
00:53:55.079 --> 00:53:57.780
So you get, you do get, but that doesn't work.

787
00:53:57.840 --> 00:54:02.639
That discon disconsolate. elongation of time and then truncation.

788
00:54:02.699 --> 00:54:11.460
I suppose it heightens the drama, but not in a way that's actually affords an interesting or pleasurable, a more pleasurable viewing experience.

789
00:54:11.519 --> 00:54:13.739
What would Mary Whitehouse have said?

790
00:54:13.800 --> 00:54:15.840
She'd moved on by then.

791
00:54:15.900 --> 00:54:17.699
I think she has. other things to annoy you.

792
00:54:17.760 --> 00:54:20.039
How dare you have someone with my hair as the villain.

793
00:54:20.099 --> 00:54:21.900
Do love the hair.

794
00:54:22.679 --> 00:54:27.059
Oh, my puzzling creative choices care for McCulloch, that's obvious.

795
00:54:27.300 --> 00:54:33.840
Damn, you know, I like to attract my creative.

796
00:54:33.840 --> 00:54:35.820
I know you all say nice things about remembrance.

797
00:54:35.820 --> 00:54:37.860
Really?

798
00:54:37.980 --> 00:54:41.159
I mean, you know, you can clip the cat's claws and you've got the same sound coming out.

799
00:54:41.219 --> 00:54:43.139
It's like we can do it for you right now.

800
00:54:43.619 --> 00:54:45.360
Yeah, and no.

801
00:54:45.420 --> 00:54:46.139
No.

802
00:54:46.199 --> 00:54:47.400
You know, not at all.

803
00:54:47.460 --> 00:54:48.119
It's funny.

804
00:54:48.179 --> 00:54:53.880
I was just about to say, yeah, this is such a strong season that we can only come up with abstracts for Jenny Laird awards and not people.

805
00:54:53.880 --> 00:54:58.320
And then, yeah, people, but no, I entirely get where you're coming from.

806
00:54:58.500 --> 00:55:00.000
JNT's.

807
00:55:00.059 --> 00:55:03.360
JNT sloppy slipshods, self- loathing.

808
00:55:03.420 --> 00:55:18.480
No, he was never guilty of self-loathing, but his whole lachrymose inability to be enthusiastic about the show in any way other than just perfunctory because, you know, he was going, that's why this show is so good now because he's not taking over like he used to.

809
00:55:18.539 --> 00:55:24.360
We're not seeing his inner world. projected and it wasn't all Saber's fault.

810
00:55:24.420 --> 00:55:29.340
Now that he sits back and does exactly what he does brilliantly, which is making the money work.

811
00:55:29.639 --> 00:55:34.019
Yeah, he does a lovely job and leaves it to the young people.

812
00:55:34.079 --> 00:55:34.980
Yes.

813
00:55:34.980 --> 00:55:37.860
Yes, Nathan and I are looking at you, Brenton.

814
00:55:37.920 --> 00:55:38.340
Yes.

815
00:55:38.400 --> 00:55:39.719
Leave it to the young people.

816
00:55:39.840 --> 00:55:48.659
Because, again, he's enough of a professional, even with, you know, the big ego that he has, to realise that things need to change, to keep alive.

817
00:55:49.380 --> 00:55:56.699
Well, you know, I have to wonder with no disrespect intended to Beth Willis or Piers Winger or Caro Skinner.

818
00:55:56.760 --> 00:56:05.159
However, how Brian Minchin may have had the same effect on Stephen Moffat that Andrew Cartmel had on JNT.

819
00:56:05.519 --> 00:56:18.599
And as I say, that is not any reflection on the previous executive producers, certainly not comparing them to the effect John Nathan Turner and Eric Saywood had on each other, but I see a difference in quality of a similar manner.

820
00:56:18.659 --> 00:56:20.099
I still like earth shock.

821
00:56:20.159 --> 00:56:23.460
I loved it at the time. boy, it was extraordinary.

822
00:56:23.519 --> 00:56:25.320
It had some great moments, really good timing.

823
00:56:25.380 --> 00:56:27.059
I like the dinner speech.

824
00:56:27.119 --> 00:56:28.800
Yeah, look I agree.

825
00:56:28.860 --> 00:56:35.039
It was just the decision that we now had to remake that every year a couple of times a year from here on in.

826
00:56:35.099 --> 00:56:36.900
That was the thing that I found...

827
00:56:36.900 --> 00:56:38.219
We get projectionable.

828
00:56:38.280 --> 00:56:41.880
Wait till we get to a battlefield and discover what happened to Bell Reed's girlfriend.

829
00:56:41.940 --> 00:56:42.960
Yes.

830
00:56:43.019 --> 00:56:43.500
Yes.

831
00:56:43.619 --> 00:56:46.139
Um, so pics of the week.

832
00:56:46.199 --> 00:56:50.219
Mine is, well, actually I've got 2 because I meant to mention earlier in the episode, but I didn't.

833
00:56:50.280 --> 00:56:58.440
When the greatest show in the galaxy were shooting is when KLF under the name The Time Lords released Dr. in the TARDIS.

834
00:56:58.500 --> 00:56:59.579
Oh, dear.

835
00:56:59.579 --> 00:57:01.559
Really well.

836
00:57:01.619 --> 00:57:02.280
It got to number one.

837
00:57:02.820 --> 00:57:04.079
And it's, I like it.

838
00:57:04.139 --> 00:57:12.000
It's really good And also, in itself, it was a remix, of course, of Gary Glitter song, whose name I momentarily forget.

839
00:57:12.059 --> 00:57:19.800
But it was then remixed by a DJ under the name Dean Gray, mashed up with holiday by Green Day, and quotations from George W.

840
00:57:19.800 --> 00:57:20.099
Bush.

841
00:57:20.159 --> 00:57:21.300
So it opens with George W.

842
00:57:21.300 --> 00:57:23.340
Bush having a conversation with the Daleks.

843
00:57:23.400 --> 00:57:25.800
And it's...

844
00:57:25.800 --> 00:57:26.760
Dolores to his mates.

845
00:57:26.820 --> 00:57:27.599
Yes, that's right.

846
00:57:27.599 --> 00:57:29.579
It's a really great piece.

847
00:57:29.639 --> 00:57:32.340
It is available for free, so we'll put it up in the show notes.

848
00:57:32.400 --> 00:57:35.039
So that's Doctor Who on holiday, Nathan, for the show notes.

849
00:57:35.159 --> 00:57:35.760
Brilliant.

850
00:57:35.820 --> 00:57:37.980
My holiday for the dog?

851
00:57:38.039 --> 00:57:39.780
My other recommendation.

852
00:57:39.960 --> 00:57:43.320
We've recommended other Doctor Who podcasts before...

853
00:57:43.320 --> 00:57:44.159
Grudgingly.

854
00:57:47.219 --> 00:57:56.099
But this is not a Doctor Who podcast, and it's not by anyone I know personally, but Doctor Who, of course, big part of my childhood.

855
00:57:56.159 --> 00:58:01.800
Another big part of my childhood that I've recently revisited and rewatched all of it, is X-Men the animated series.

856
00:58:01.860 --> 00:58:06.599
The X-Men films came off the back of X-Men the animated series.

857
00:58:06.659 --> 00:58:10.800
It ran for 5 seasons, about 76 episodes.

858
00:58:10.860 --> 00:58:24.360
And now there's a podcast by 2 American fans called the X-Men, the animated series podcast, or X-Men Taz podcast, and it's kind of, it's a bit like flight through entirety.

859
00:58:24.420 --> 00:58:45.179
It's less about, you know, Richard, you talk a lot about the textual antecedents and we talk a lot about the social stuff, but it's more about these 2 people's recollections of what their lives were like then, but also looking back on the plots as an adult, talking about, because of course, X-Men started off and in the 90s were still an allegory for racism and other forms of discrimination.

860
00:58:45.239 --> 00:58:51.780
The cartoon series does briefly cover the legacy virus, which was Marvel Comics take on HIV.

861
00:58:51.840 --> 00:58:58.019
Yeah, it's a Saturday morning cartoon, so it doesn't go into it with great depth, but there are moments of great depth within the show.

862
00:58:58.019 --> 00:59:07.920
And Willie and Sonia, who are the hosts, are really fun and charismatic, and they really love the show, and that makes it really great to listen to.

863
00:59:07.980 --> 00:59:09.239
So those are my recommendations.

864
00:59:09.300 --> 00:59:14.460
Dr. in the Tartars by the Time Lords and X-Men Taz podcast by Willie and Sonya.

865
00:59:14.519 --> 00:59:22.500
Well, I looked back through the show notes of some old episodes and I don't think I've recommended this before, but if I have, I don't care.

866
00:59:22.559 --> 00:59:27.480
During the week, we had the news that Robert Hardy had died.

867
00:59:27.539 --> 00:59:28.079
Yeah.

868
00:59:28.079 --> 00:59:30.659
We almost owned him.

869
00:59:30.780 --> 00:59:32.159
We almost owned him.

870
00:59:32.219 --> 00:59:35.519
He was like a father-in-law. to the show.

871
00:59:35.579 --> 00:59:42.239
Was that around the time of Pete or because there was talk of him being considered for the role of the doctor?

872
00:59:42.239 --> 00:59:43.260
Oh, okay.

873
00:59:43.320 --> 00:59:45.300
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about at the same peak time.

874
00:59:45.360 --> 00:59:48.239
I remember at the time, I wasn't, it wasn't talking to you about it.

875
00:59:48.300 --> 00:59:53.579
It was one of our other fan, you know, dawn timing fan folk, probably Kerry Doherty.

876
00:59:53.639 --> 00:59:57.000
And I remember her saying, he would have been a much better doctor who's the right age.

877
00:59:57.059 --> 01:00:01.980
We really loathed, received wisdom, loathed the idea of a young doctor back then.

878
01:00:02.039 --> 01:00:03.900
Let's see how Jody goes.

879
01:00:03.960 --> 01:00:07.739
I think, well, we should all learn from our past errors.

880
01:00:07.920 --> 01:00:19.260
Yeah, so Robert Hardy reads, and you can get this on Audible, reads Evelyn Waugh's novel, Vile Bodies, which I adore one of my favourite books ever.

881
01:00:19.320 --> 01:00:21.480
And Robert Hardy does voices.

882
01:00:21.539 --> 01:00:30.420
He brings just the kind of languid sneering disinterest to the narrator's role that really characterises the narrator in that book.

883
01:00:30.420 --> 01:00:31.920
Much like this podcast.

884
01:00:31.980 --> 01:00:36.360
He's so funny. unbelievably hilarious.

885
01:00:36.420 --> 01:00:38.579
It's just a virtuoso performance.

886
01:00:38.639 --> 01:00:40.679
Yeah, he does great vocal range stuff too.

887
01:00:40.739 --> 01:00:43.440
So he does voices for the characters and stuff.

888
01:00:43.500 --> 01:00:49.260
So it becomes not so much a novel, as a script for this incredible one-man performance.

889
01:00:49.679 --> 01:00:52.019
It's really, really good.

890
01:00:52.079 --> 01:00:56.400
So, Vile Bodies, by Evelyn Warre, red by Robert Hardy.

891
01:00:56.460 --> 01:00:57.960
How beautiful.

892
01:00:58.019 --> 01:01:00.000
Is it my go, is it?

893
01:01:00.119 --> 01:01:02.159
I recommend you fruit to all of you?

894
01:01:03.119 --> 01:01:07.440
Not so much creamed corn, but yes, you definitely all need more roughage.

895
01:01:07.500 --> 01:01:09.179
That's my ready.

896
01:01:09.300 --> 01:01:14.460
This is just a big fruity, you know, cornucopia or a melange of loveliness this season, isn't there?

897
01:01:14.519 --> 01:01:16.679
There's lots of things I disliked about it at the time.

898
01:01:16.679 --> 01:01:25.199
And there are sort of some more ones that I dislike now, but on the whole, I just, it feels like the sun has come out.

899
01:01:25.320 --> 01:01:42.059
At the time when, at the time, when this came on, Clanet had kind of gone, and if you listen to, or you listen to, you're living with your parents, and they, they would probably have the BBC or ABC radio, Enya was being played bloody constantly with the sailor bleeping sailor away.

900
01:01:42.119 --> 01:01:54.119
But it was really appropriate for the feel of this season and just the sense of exuberance and joy and we'll cast off somewhere where we can't, we haven't been before, and just hope for the best.

901
01:01:54.179 --> 01:01:56.579
And that's what creativity is.

902
01:01:56.639 --> 01:02:04.860
You're not meant to know how it's going to work out before you start the film or the writing or the design or the drawing or the knitting or whatever it is you're going to make.

903
01:02:04.920 --> 01:02:06.480
You're not meant to know the end.

904
01:02:06.539 --> 01:02:08.760
It's an it's playing, it's exploration.

905
01:02:08.820 --> 01:02:11.039
This season does that for me so well.

906
01:02:11.099 --> 01:02:13.980
So my go to is sit down and watch this bloody thing and not just listen to us.

907
01:02:14.039 --> 01:02:16.079
Because we know what you like.

908
01:02:16.079 --> 01:02:17.340
Go on, watch it.

909
01:02:17.400 --> 01:02:18.900
And eat fruit.

910
01:02:35.219 --> 01:02:47.099
Well, dear listener, we're taking off from the planet Segen X, and, uh, we're having a little break, but we will be back in about a month or so with our commentary on Enlightenment.

911
01:02:47.159 --> 01:02:47.639
Do come back for that.

912
01:02:47.699 --> 01:02:53.940
In the meantime, check the show notes where you can vote on your choice for our Colin Baker commentary.

913
01:02:54.000 --> 01:03:02.820
Your choices are Mark of the Rani, Revelation of the Daleks, the Mysterious Planet, or Terror of the Verboids, and we're hoping to put that out at the end of season 26.

914
01:03:03.059 --> 01:03:11.460
You can find that on our website at flight through entirety.sexy, flight through entirety on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at FTE podcasts on Twitter.

915
01:03:11.519 --> 01:03:13.260
Over on Bondfinger.

916
01:03:13.320 --> 01:03:24.420
We are in the midst of the Pierce Brosnan era, and you can find our commentaries on his films on Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at Bondfingercast on Twitter.

917
01:03:24.480 --> 01:03:28.559
Or just do what we do and rewatch the Roger Moore solos.

918
01:03:28.619 --> 01:03:30.360
Yes, before those videos existed.

919
01:03:30.420 --> 01:03:36.480
Roger was doing solo commentaries on his own films, on the Blu-ray DPD set.

920
01:03:36.539 --> 01:03:42.059
So I did that with the spy who loved me last night and had a rollicking fun with my corgis, just like the Queen.

921
01:03:42.179 --> 01:03:46.739
You know, I kind of wish that they got Roger Moore to comment on everyone else's bond.

922
01:03:46.800 --> 01:03:48.599
Can you imagine?

923
01:03:48.659 --> 01:03:51.119
Imagine what it'd be like with Pierce.

924
01:03:51.420 --> 01:03:52.980
Awful.

925
01:03:53.039 --> 01:03:53.699
Oh, please.

926
01:03:53.760 --> 01:03:55.139
Oh gosh.

927
01:03:55.199 --> 01:03:57.840
This is the tragic thing about time moving on.

928
01:03:57.900 --> 01:04:00.719
We always think of the best stuff to do afterwards.

929
01:04:01.739 --> 01:04:06.179
Until next time, may you find none of your adventures overrated.

930
01:04:06.239 --> 01:04:07.860
Thank you very much for listening in Good Night.

931
01:04:07.920 --> 01:04:09.300
Good night. chewing.

932
01:04:27.360 --> 01:04:31.860
That was Flight Through Entirety with Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

933
01:04:31.920 --> 01:04:35.340
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, logo designed by Anthony Wells.

934
01:04:35.400 --> 01:04:39.659
This episode, Jazz Hands, was recorded on August 6th, 2017.

935
01:04:39.840 --> 01:04:42.360
The next episode will be released in October.

936
01:04:45.960 --> 01:04:49.139
We've just been signed on to the Psychic Circus.

937
01:04:49.199 --> 01:04:58.440
Look out for Richard's impression of Marlena Dietrich, Brendan's one-man improvised retelling of the legend of Zelda, and Nathan's three-hour lecture on the origins of the word, tire soul.

938
01:05:01.500 --> 01:05:03.300
What's that book?

939
01:05:03.360 --> 01:05:06.659
Um, the complete, one of the complete history volumes.

940
01:05:06.719 --> 01:05:07.500
Okay.

941
01:05:07.559 --> 01:05:09.780
It spans the season.

942
01:05:09.840 --> 01:05:10.800
Almost.

943
01:05:10.860 --> 01:05:13.139
So, yes, yeah.

944
01:05:13.199 --> 01:05:19.559
So yeah, they don't they don't really pay attention to seasons, but when you get to a new season, they do have like an overview.

945
01:05:19.619 --> 01:05:20.219
Oh, okay.

946
01:05:20.219 --> 01:05:23.340
There's photos there that I've never seen.

947
01:05:23.400 --> 01:05:25.559
Oh yeah, there's some good rare photos in here.

948
01:05:26.400 --> 01:05:30.059
So yeah, there's the contents, like Silver Nemesis, Greater Show.

949
01:05:30.119 --> 01:05:31.619
1989 Battlefield.

950
01:05:31.679 --> 01:05:32.219
Right.

951
01:05:34.679 --> 01:05:37.019
They are beautiful, but I just don't want more things.

952
01:05:37.079 --> 01:05:39.599
No, I understand that. room for more things.

953
01:05:39.659 --> 01:05:42.960
And like the same company is planning another 5 part works.

954
01:05:43.019 --> 01:05:52.860
Like a target part work, a target audio readings, part work, a big finish part work, the comics part work, and something else.

955
01:05:52.920 --> 01:05:54.000
I can't remember.

956
01:05:54.059 --> 01:06:01.679
Oh, like the Doctor Who fact files, like the Star Trek ones, where it was all pull apart and you sort things, which fans love doing.

957
01:06:01.800 --> 01:06:06.539
I think friend of the podcast, Peter Griffiths worked on the Star Trek one.

958
01:06:06.599 --> 01:06:09.420
I follow the old editor, Robert.

959
01:06:09.480 --> 01:06:11.460
He's not at all uncomely.

960
01:06:11.519 --> 01:06:12.239
What's this?

961
01:06:12.239 --> 01:06:15.780
Oh, these are great.

962
01:06:15.840 --> 01:06:16.320
There we are.

963
01:06:16.380 --> 01:06:17.760
That's the page I want.

964
01:06:18.179 --> 01:06:19.800
Are we good?

965
01:06:19.860 --> 01:06:20.760
Cool.

966
01:06:20.820 --> 01:06:21.059
Okay.

967
01:06:21.119 --> 01:06:25.320
Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to flight through entirety.

968
01:06:25.380 --> 01:06:28.619
The only Doctor Who commentary podcast who are just as good as we used to be.

969
01:06:28.679 --> 01:06:30.059
Thank you, Adrian Mole.

970
01:06:30.119 --> 01:06:31.980
Commentary podcast.

971
01:06:32.039 --> 01:06:33.239
Did I say commentary?

972
01:06:33.300 --> 01:06:33.719
Yeah.

973
01:06:33.780 --> 01:06:34.679
Okay.