WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 12:22:40

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast who's just as good as we've always

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been.

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Thank you, Adrian Mole.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm a hollowed out melon of creamed corn and custard for this

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one.

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We are on our way to the psychic circus for the greatest show in

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the galaxy.

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Mind the flaps, dear.

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This ends up being the season finale of season 25, the anniversary

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season.

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Not in my history.

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No, no.

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I much prefer Silver Nemesis is the finale.

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It feels more fitting because, you know, we get the callback and

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we get that beautiful last moment we discussed last week of who

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are you?

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Which is actually really well done for such a...

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Mawkish line.

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But instead, we get this four-part story from Stephen Wyatt, who

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wrote Paradise Towers last year, which we all quite enjoyed.

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I think the execution in this one is much better though, because

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we did say last year the execution of Paradise Towers was flawed

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like the ages didn't quite work.

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Had more time on this one, haven't they?

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That's very true.

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And it looks spectacular.

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I mean, it really Surprising how good it looks.

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Yeah, it's not all done to paint box.

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There's a lot of other things going on here.

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They put money into this.

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They tend to do that each season, don't they?

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They have a big money burner.

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Well, let's not dispaint box because they do a great job.

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I think it's no, I love it. it's beautiful.

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Yeah, there's that wonderful shot where Nord rides off towards the

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circus and there's that big ringed planet in the background.

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And think back just a couple of years earlier where you had those

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sort of appalling day glow pink planets in the sky of Thoros Bisa

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and just how much more subtle and well done it is.

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And you have, I think, you know, the greatest director of this era

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of Doctor Who.

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Yeah, Alan Waring.

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And he's wonderful.

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I mean, we will go on to talk about how great he is in ghost lies

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and survival, I think.

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But here I think he's really, really wonderful.

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And just the look of the show is great.

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And of course, there were those massive production problems.

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Which were the greatest benefit to mankind.

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We could have possibly hoped.

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On Alan Waring just before we get into that.

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A moustache.

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Alan Waring is the most gust, well, gut busting, brine island zip

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up, $6000000 man, skivvy moustache you have ever seen.

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Really?

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Yeah, in the day.

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It's worth watching the videos just for that.

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Bristling, it is.

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Joan Crawford with a pencil moustache, maybe?

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No, there's nothing Robert Donar about it.

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It's your it's your full upper brush.

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We talking Jason King?

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Oh, I wish.

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They should have brought him back.

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But what you were saying with the paint box, for instance, if we

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just look at the story we discussed last week, Silver Nemesis.

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And this is something I didn't notice until I was rewatching it

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for the podcast.

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The compositing work and the sort of paintbox mat work on

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Deflora's house is actually really bad.

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Like the house suddenly...

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That was really hard to do.

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But compared to what we see here.

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Maybe it's just one year is a whole, you know, how much time you

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the jumps in tech at the time were amazing one year to the next.

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I also think season.

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Oh okay.

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Because Sylvan Es time then maybe.

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But also, I'm wondering if maybe Chris Klough settled where Alan

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Waring pushed.

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Oh yeah, possibly.

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But as you alluded, Nathan, there were production problems.

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First of all, something I found out recently that I didn't know.

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This started life as a three-parter.

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And essentially the episode they added in was the 1st episode with

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travelling to the circus.

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Like that was originally going to be 5 minutes of episode one and

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Cartmel and Wyatt kind of agreed.

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No, let's get to know the characters, give it a bit of breathing

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space.

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And I think that really works.

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In terms of the production problems.

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They actually got all the way through the location shoot.

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So all the stuff in the sand pit, which we'll see again next year

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in survival.

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And there's a lot of it.

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A whole stack of it is shot on location, as is now the thing.

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Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

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And on the DVDs, there's even character bits that didn't make it

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into the show, especially for Captain Cook and Mags.

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So after they shot all that, it was discovered that there was

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asbestos in television centre.

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So that had to be cleared out and that had a knock on effect and

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it was kind of the sharder case of other programs were given

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precedence over Doctor Who.

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And for about 4 or 5 hours, this story was officially cancelled

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much like Charter had been.

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Q, JNT, and Gary Downey calling around, finding out places they

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could go, and eventually.

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Because it had to be filmed on BBC property because the union

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thing was still really big.

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So you couldn't just go to any old rehearsal room or any other

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stage.

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No.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And they were going to go to BBC Elstree, but then the Elstree

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Studios were being used for something and it was actually the set

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designer.

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EastEnders.

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I know.

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That would have, look, way before dimensions in time.

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We had greatest show in the Galaxy.

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The set designer, David Lasky, had filmed enough.

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Professor Lasky.

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Professor Lasky.

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Well, he had dumb set design for Terror of the Burvoids.

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But he had done aggressively.

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He had done a production before in a tent.

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I know.

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And that's where the idea came from.

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Let's put all the sets up in a tent.

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Funnily enough, it's set in a tent.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And there was just this penny dropping moment of the office of he

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said, we can put it in a tent.

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And apparently it was Gary Dowder.

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He said, well, it is set in a circus.

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And that even the TARDIS console room is in the tent, and that's

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why the lighting is very slightly different from previous

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appearances, but I think this is the only console room scene this

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season.

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It is.

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Yeah.

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I like that.

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Me too.

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And next season we're only going to get one console room scene as

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well.

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But that's how this all came about.

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And what people have sort of said since is, you know, when they're

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running through corridors in the tent and you've got the billowing

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walls.

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It's like, you know, to do that in studio, we wouldn't have been

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able to.

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You need Bonnie Tilo, yeah.

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Surprise mirror.

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Sorry, literal music video.

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But David Lasky kind of went on to say, to do that in the studio

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we would have needed wind machines, but if we had wind machines, we

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would have had to dub the dialogue because you wouldn't have been

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able to hear it.

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Putting it actually outside.

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We get that natural breeze.

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And so in episode 4, jumping ahead, when the doctor's going

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through that vortex and there's all that wind and everything, it

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feels like we've been building up to it.

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It's one of these wonderful serendipity stories where, The

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circumstances conspire to give you something that is much better

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than it was originally meant to be.

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It's the 1st of 2 Sylvester McCoy for partters that just end up

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being shot essentially entirely on location.

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And it really works, I think, for that reason.

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It just looks really spectacular.

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And this has been a spectacular looking season all the way back

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from remembrance of the Daleks, which I think we thought looked

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amazing and had some really terrific sets.

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We're at that point now, the Indian summer point, we were looking

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at these thinking, these were so good.

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Why was nobody seeing these?

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And Jonathan, well, you know, because there wasn't any publicity.

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We're about to find out for next season just how little publicity

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there was because there was no budget for it, and it was partly

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GNTs doing as well.

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But you also had Jonathan Powell saying, yes, yes, it's very

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good.

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It's very good.

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I think they'd planned to just let it die its natural death.

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And I don't think that's just received fan wisdom. listening to

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what we're saying now and watching them over again.

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I'm really feeling like they're just letting the kids out to play

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one more time before we leave.

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We don't tell them we're moving.

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Because, I mean, Doctor Who is still kind of a joke at this

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point.

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Very much so.

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And you had stand-up comedians now doing the usual football crowd

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thing about wobbly sets and stairs.

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But it does, it doesn't look like that.

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That's not what we're getting.

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Well, those tent walls aren't exactly...

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Well, they are holding themselves up, I suppose.

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But you know, Richard, you're exactly right.

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And the thing is, even with the success Doctor Who's had in the

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last 10 years, and I understand, over the last couple of years, the

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ratings in pure numbers have waned, but the audience appreciation

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figures an audience share haven't changed all that much.

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So Doctor Who is still popular.

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Yeah, it still gets to be in the top 20, doesn't it?

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Nowadays.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Only, only, only just.

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Sometimes it's 21.

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But people are still making the dialects going upstairs joke.

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And in 2005, you know, when Rob Shearman's Dalek story finally

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happened, the headlines were all, oh, Daleks are back and now they

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can climb upstairs.

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Oh, how amazing.

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And there's... received psychism. received everything else.

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There is not a lot to it.

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Do you remember that wonderful scene in John Richard and Adam

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Richards show, Outland, where Toby Trustlove playing the Doctor

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Who fan brings home a guy who finds a Dalek in his sugar bowl and

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says, oh, they're the masters of the universe, but they can't

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climb upstairs and Toby's internal monologue.

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Like, actually, they've been climbing stairs since 1988's

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remembrance of it up.

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No, no, leave him alone.

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We've all had that little moment, though.

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That's what it's like.

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But not we.

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No, it is, and it's the same reason that, you know, they'll still

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happily vote the way they do and say there's no climate change.

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That's right.

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If you don't accept Daleks can buy?

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You don't believe in one.

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Actually, I think there's probably a correlation there.

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And it is extraordinary to see how well this show was doing at the

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time.

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And I think it was actually too good in the way that certain films

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and certain plays are only appreciated more later.

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This is one of them.

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The 80s was all about, just like the mid 60s, early 60s, new and

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fresh.

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It hasn't been as fresh, I feel, since, since Hinchcliffe in the

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popular vision of, although, to us fans, that's not the case.

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But I mean, it should have been doing as well as those 1st Toms.

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Absolutely.

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And episode 4 of this actually gets 6.6 million.

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That's not too foul, is it?

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You know why?

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It had a little bit of publicity.

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And it ran 5 minutes over or under, I remember.

256
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And so the people, casual viewers, caught it as they were coming

257
00:12:02.580 --> 00:12:05.159
in to watch Bergerac or whatever it was that came on afterwards.

258
00:12:05.220 --> 00:12:09.120
So there were, yeah, it's, if they just had publicity, it would

259
00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:10.440
have, would have done really well.

260
00:12:10.740 --> 00:12:15.059
It is still this sort of madly experimental thing.

261
00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:17.639
I mean, the whole idea of setting it in a circus.

262
00:12:17.700 --> 00:12:22.019
I mean, we talked about this with Paradise Towers where it's in no

263
00:12:22.019 --> 00:12:23.159
way realistic.

264
00:12:23.220 --> 00:12:25.740
All of the characters are programmatic, none of them have proper

265
00:12:25.740 --> 00:12:26.220
names.

266
00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:31.019
Um, you know, the whole thing is a sort of weird allegory.

267
00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:33.360
It's something that could never have happened in the Hinchcliffe

268
00:12:33.360 --> 00:12:37.440
era where it's all, you know, long dead evils threatening

269
00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:40.139
storybook situation.

270
00:12:40.259 --> 00:12:43.620
This isn't science fiction, really.

271
00:12:43.740 --> 00:12:44.820
No this is social commentary.

272
00:12:44.879 --> 00:12:47.580
We were too close in the Hinchcliffe era to get to what this thing

273
00:12:47.580 --> 00:12:51.539
is about, which is the failure of the flower power movement, the

274
00:12:51.539 --> 00:12:53.700
failure, the failure of love.

275
00:12:53.759 --> 00:12:55.440
Mr. Major.

276
00:12:55.500 --> 00:12:56.220
The failure of love.

277
00:12:56.279 --> 00:12:58.500
I think I think it does work on 2 levels.

278
00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:03.240
And then there's the immediate level where it's about Doctor Who.

279
00:13:03.419 --> 00:13:07.379
It's called Doctor Who, the Greatest Show in the Galaxy, and it is

280
00:13:07.379 --> 00:13:09.360
essentially about the history of Doctor Who.

281
00:13:09.419 --> 00:13:14.940
And so that sort of told partly through the character of Wiz Kid.

282
00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:20.220
But then it opens out to be a story about the failure of the

283
00:13:20.220 --> 00:13:24.659
flower power generation and the way that they turned into hard

284
00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:28.019
nosed coke snorting capitalists in the 1980s.

285
00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:32.519
And so it's it's resonant, I think.

286
00:13:32.580 --> 00:13:36.779
And, and you, you might wonder why this makes it into a 25th

287
00:13:36.779 --> 00:13:41.100
anniversary season, but it is in some senses a secret history of

288
00:13:41.100 --> 00:13:45.480
Doctor Who, where the doctor has been fighting the, the gods of

289
00:13:45.480 --> 00:13:49.740
Ragnarok all through time just to stay alive, that if he stops

290
00:13:49.740 --> 00:13:54.840
being entertaining, if he stops pleasing the audience or possibly

291
00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:59.100
even pleasing various people at the BBC, he'll be immediately

292
00:13:59.100 --> 00:13:59.759
killed.

293
00:13:59.820 --> 00:14:05.039
And, you know, the symbol of the psychic circus is the eye.

294
00:14:05.100 --> 00:14:07.019
It's all about the audience.

295
00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:09.840
We have an audience appreciation figures.

296
00:14:09.899 --> 00:14:13.500
We have all of those sorts of things that we've been talking

297
00:14:13.500 --> 00:14:13.919
about.

298
00:14:13.980 --> 00:14:17.820
We have the widespread belief that Doctor Who used to be good and

299
00:14:17.820 --> 00:14:18.840
isn't anymore.

300
00:14:18.899 --> 00:14:21.539
Um, the people making it.

301
00:14:22.259 --> 00:14:28.259
The people making it are tired, jaded, and I'm not talking about

302
00:14:28.259 --> 00:14:28.679
the podcast.

303
00:14:33.179 --> 00:14:37.980
You know, and there's this sort of weird analogue of the Doctor

304
00:14:37.980 --> 00:14:41.940
Who constantly, you know, Captain Cucku constantly wanders through

305
00:14:41.940 --> 00:14:46.320
the show talking about his past adventures, talking continuity

306
00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:47.220
references.

307
00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:48.240
So that's it.

308
00:14:48.299 --> 00:14:51.659
Can we talk about WizKit and...

309
00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:52.559
We ready to talk about that yet?

310
00:14:52.620 --> 00:14:53.399
Wiz kid, okay?

311
00:14:53.460 --> 00:14:54.419
Apotheosis.

312
00:14:54.480 --> 00:15:01.080
Tick that bingo box of of ours, of ours, of Barker's, as Mr. Downey

313
00:15:01.080 --> 00:15:03.299
and Mr. Nathan Turner called us.

314
00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:07.320
And in his notes to Cartmel and Stephen Wyatt.

315
00:15:07.379 --> 00:15:09.179
JNT did write.

316
00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:10.740
I really like the Barker character.

317
00:15:10.860 --> 00:15:12.360
He...

318
00:15:12.419 --> 00:15:13.500
Oh wow.

319
00:15:13.559 --> 00:15:18.059
But Cartmore expanded the character of the captain, who was meant

320
00:15:18.059 --> 00:15:21.720
to die at the end of episode one, and there is received fan

321
00:15:21.720 --> 00:15:22.200
wisdom.

322
00:15:22.259 --> 00:15:23.340
I'm not naming names.

323
00:15:23.399 --> 00:15:28.919
Some of his lines. purlieus, little twists on actual guests from

324
00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:31.379
actual conventions telling the actual same story.

325
00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:34.080
The same story. excuse me.

326
00:15:34.139 --> 00:15:35.940
Over and over and over.

327
00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:40.860
So, yeah, this is this is an internal and external standup of

328
00:15:40.860 --> 00:15:41.100
these people.

329
00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:44.700
I adore the moment where the doctor shouts at the caption.

330
00:15:44.759 --> 00:15:48.899
You're also a crushing boar and the look the look TP mechanic

331
00:15:48.899 --> 00:15:49.379
gives me.

332
00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:52.860
No, there's a reaction from one of the clown robots in the

333
00:15:52.860 --> 00:15:55.620
background who puts his hand open his mouth.

334
00:15:55.679 --> 00:15:58.559
Like that like that shocked kitten gift.

335
00:15:58.620 --> 00:16:00.539
Can I say I...

336
00:16:00.539 --> 00:16:01.200
Well before, yeah.

337
00:16:01.259 --> 00:16:04.620
I really love Wiz Kid. and I think WizKit is actually an

338
00:16:04.620 --> 00:16:07.200
affectionate take on the fans.

339
00:16:07.620 --> 00:16:10.379
He is a send-up, but he's not.

340
00:16:10.500 --> 00:16:13.320
I don't find his character insulting.

341
00:16:13.379 --> 00:16:18.000
He is a bit over enthusiastic, but he's also a nice person.

342
00:16:18.059 --> 00:16:23.580
You know, and everything he does comes from a place of love, even

343
00:16:23.580 --> 00:16:24.480
if he's irritating.

344
00:16:24.539 --> 00:16:27.059
And the old performers can't wait for him to die.

345
00:16:28.019 --> 00:16:30.360
But that's the that's the thing.

346
00:16:30.419 --> 00:16:34.620
I think he's also a little bit of a commentary on the fan

347
00:16:34.620 --> 00:16:38.820
commentary of the time because, you know, say we keep making fun

348
00:16:38.820 --> 00:16:42.539
of him, but Chris Chimnall last year, the year before on points of

349
00:16:42.539 --> 00:16:46.679
view, and, you know, the kind of joke we've made now of, okay, if

350
00:16:46.679 --> 00:16:48.240
you think it's so easy, you do it.

351
00:16:48.299 --> 00:16:49.860
Well, that's more.

352
00:16:49.980 --> 00:16:52.259
But that's what the Wiz Kid does in this.

353
00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:57.120
He thinks he can go into the psychic circus and be an act, but he

354
00:16:57.120 --> 00:16:58.980
doesn't survive a few seconds. you know?

355
00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:00.360
So it's kind of saying to fans.

356
00:17:00.419 --> 00:17:03.720
We, you know, we love that you love us, but don't think you can

357
00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:06.119
walk a mile in our shoes because it is harder than it looks.

358
00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:09.180
In fact, before he goes into the ring.

359
00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:13.200
The captain says that he's certain that he has style and panache

360
00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:17.339
and that he'll be great in the ring and he's actually a little bit

361
00:17:17.339 --> 00:17:21.059
he kind of admits that he's not really very sure of that.

362
00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:23.579
And so we do know that he's going to be killed.

363
00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:24.900
Oh, God, yeah, yeah, yeah.

364
00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:27.900
Yeah, I also think when you talk about the fan commentary, There

365
00:17:27.900 --> 00:17:34.559
is obviously this story that Doctor Who used to be good and isn't

366
00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:36.059
anymore.

367
00:17:36.059 --> 00:17:38.640
And we're, during a period of time where it's actually not

368
00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:40.799
possible to watch early Doctor Who at all.

369
00:17:40.859 --> 00:17:44.819
And so in the 5 doctors, They bring back Richard Herndle as the

370
00:17:44.819 --> 00:17:45.359
1st doctor.

371
00:17:45.539 --> 00:17:48.000
But they don't know what he's like.

372
00:17:48.059 --> 00:17:49.740
You know, he's the grumpy one.

373
00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:50.700
Have you seen Todd, really?

374
00:17:50.759 --> 00:17:52.980
30 seconds, no, it's like.

375
00:17:53.220 --> 00:17:55.859
So no one knows what he's like.

376
00:17:55.980 --> 00:17:59.339
And Wiz Kid admits that he's never seen early Doctor Who and that

377
00:17:59.339 --> 00:18:02.940
he's just going by his experience of seeing the posters.

378
00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:03.779
He's got all the posters.

379
00:18:03.779 --> 00:18:06.000
He's got all the posters, so he knows what it's like.

380
00:18:06.059 --> 00:18:08.220
He's got a WH Allen poster.

381
00:18:08.279 --> 00:18:11.039
Yeah, he's got a full collection of Peter Haning books on the

382
00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:12.720
early history of the psychic circus.

383
00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:15.900
The other reason I love...

384
00:18:15.900 --> 00:18:17.519
The thing is, it's so true.

385
00:18:17.579 --> 00:18:22.500
It was years when I was a fan before I saw Hartnell and Troughton

386
00:18:22.500 --> 00:18:25.500
and I just have the targets, but I didn't read many of them, but

387
00:18:25.500 --> 00:18:28.259
the covers are burned on my memory and the blurbs are burned on my

388
00:18:28.259 --> 00:18:28.559
memory.

389
00:18:28.619 --> 00:18:31.019
Because, you know, I was reading Doctor Who books, but I was also

390
00:18:31.019 --> 00:18:32.160
reading Roald Dahl.

391
00:18:32.220 --> 00:18:34.559
Like Matilda was my favourite book as a kid.

392
00:18:34.619 --> 00:18:37.980
I could literally sit there and read it as in a night, considering

393
00:18:37.980 --> 00:18:39.960
the subject matter, that's quite apt.

394
00:18:40.019 --> 00:18:43.980
But the other reason I love WizKid is because Star Trek tries to

395
00:18:43.980 --> 00:18:48.299
do the same idea this year in season 2 of Star Trek Next

396
00:18:48.299 --> 00:18:52.440
Generation, in an episode called Samaritan Snare, which introduces

397
00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:53.339
the PackLeds.

398
00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:55.319
If we remember...

399
00:18:55.380 --> 00:18:56.819
They look for things to make them go.

400
00:18:56.880 --> 00:18:58.319
They look for things to make them go.

401
00:18:58.380 --> 00:19:02.640
So they kidnap the engineer, Geordie La Forge, to try to get him

402
00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:04.319
to make them go.

403
00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:07.559
And the thing is, the writers have said, oh yeah, you know, they're

404
00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:09.960
they're, um, they're a parody of our fans.

405
00:19:10.019 --> 00:19:15.900
They're deliberately written to be obese, slow witted, stupid and

406
00:19:15.900 --> 00:19:16.319
selfish.

407
00:19:16.380 --> 00:19:22.500
Not really a good idea to lampoon your base viewer viewers either

408
00:19:22.500 --> 00:19:25.980
at the end of a show or for Trex case at the beginning.

409
00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:27.059
Yeah, yeah.

410
00:19:27.059 --> 00:19:28.799
But how did the Yanks take that?

411
00:19:28.859 --> 00:19:30.660
I mean, I mean, our lovely American friends.

412
00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:31.380
How did they take?

413
00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:34.200
The thing is, I have seen a lot of people react to that commentary

414
00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:35.759
and go, oh, I'd never seen that before.

415
00:19:35.819 --> 00:19:38.400
Whereas when we're watching Greater Show in the galaxy, just say

416
00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:41.519
if you're, I didn't get it as a kid, so maybe you're if you're

417
00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:45.660
about Wiz kids' age or older, you would pick up that, hey, that

418
00:19:45.660 --> 00:19:46.740
person is like me.

419
00:19:46.859 --> 00:19:49.200
When Doctor Who does it, it's affectionate.

420
00:19:49.259 --> 00:19:51.839
It's, it's slightly taking the piss.

421
00:19:51.900 --> 00:19:53.400
And he does get killed.

422
00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:54.480
And he does get killed.

423
00:19:54.539 --> 00:19:58.319
But we kind of like, I think a lot of Doctor Who fans would be

424
00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:00.660
happy being in Doctor Who just to get killed, you know?

425
00:20:00.900 --> 00:20:04.140
I don't know him very well, but I know you're opening up a whole

426
00:20:04.140 --> 00:20:04.920
new can.

427
00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:09.599
That's the place on the internet. on the show.

428
00:20:09.660 --> 00:20:12.180
But someone I knew in the UK.

429
00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:17.759
He had been an extra on several David Tennant stories and he loves

430
00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:18.359
talking about it.

431
00:20:18.420 --> 00:20:22.380
He was killed by the reality bomb in the Stolen Earth and

432
00:20:22.380 --> 00:20:26.940
Journey's End. he's one of, he's standing behind Jackie when she's

433
00:20:26.940 --> 00:20:28.740
in the chamber and he's like, oh, you know, it was a great day.

434
00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:30.240
And I got to die on Doctor Who.

435
00:20:30.299 --> 00:20:31.500
So I think...

436
00:20:31.500 --> 00:20:35.640
Compare that to the PackLeds, where I think, okay, I think with

437
00:20:35.640 --> 00:20:37.559
Wiz Kid, you're in on the joke.

438
00:20:37.619 --> 00:20:38.940
You're part of the joke.

439
00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:40.740
You're like, oh yeah, that is a bit like me.

440
00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:42.059
Yeah, I do have all the posters.

441
00:20:42.119 --> 00:20:45.539
Whereas the PacLeds are like, not even an oversimplification, just

442
00:20:45.539 --> 00:20:48.059
a really insulting version of the Star Trek fan.

443
00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:51.480
We need to go back to look at the centre of our universe here, the

444
00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:54.900
doctor who has become, and I'd like to talk about Sylvester's

445
00:20:54.900 --> 00:20:58.319
performances, because he's much maligned by fan history, but I

446
00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:00.599
think when you start watching this in the next season, you see

447
00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:03.420
that he can hold things together that I don't know many other

448
00:21:03.420 --> 00:21:07.019
actors playing the doctor would have been able to do so, especially

449
00:21:07.019 --> 00:21:07.740
in Ghost Light.

450
00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:10.859
But in this one, he does care about Wiz Kid's death.

451
00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:12.539
Whereas Bellboy.

452
00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:17.099
That scene, can we get to some of the other characters, that scene

453
00:21:17.099 --> 00:21:19.920
let's talk about Bellboy and Flower Child were probably the most, I

454
00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:23.519
know it's very, you know, it's like a Japanese anime romance thing

455
00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:28.920
at the beginning, but They are rounded out before any of the other

456
00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:29.579
ones are.

457
00:21:29.579 --> 00:21:33.900
And Bellboys, the filming of Bellboys suicide, the clowns and the

458
00:21:33.900 --> 00:21:35.099
doctor just getting up and leaving.

459
00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:38.279
It's really well done television.

460
00:21:38.339 --> 00:21:39.779
It just happens to be in Doctor Who.

461
00:21:39.900 --> 00:21:41.819
The doctor seems to go, yep.

462
00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:43.680
That's yep, you go ahead.

463
00:21:43.740 --> 00:21:44.759
You made your choice.

464
00:21:44.819 --> 00:21:45.119
Go ahead.

465
00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:46.619
I think this is very dark.

466
00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:47.400
Very nice, though.

467
00:21:47.460 --> 00:21:50.819
I think there is a sadness and I do like Ace's reaction as well

468
00:21:50.819 --> 00:21:52.680
where she makes that scene, really.

469
00:21:52.740 --> 00:21:56.940
Yeah, she doesn't quite know how to react and he sort of doesn't

470
00:21:56.940 --> 00:21:59.940
even respond properly to her encouragement.

471
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:02.579
He's not looking in her direction when he sort of ushers her out

472
00:22:02.579 --> 00:22:05.039
of the of that caravan.

473
00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:08.039
It is really strong and interesting.

474
00:22:08.039 --> 00:22:13.200
The caravan of courage. caravan of allowing yourself to be

475
00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:14.279
strangled by robots.

476
00:22:14.339 --> 00:22:15.960
The...

477
00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:19.500
I think it's a metaphor for George Lucas, for working under George

478
00:22:19.500 --> 00:22:20.700
Lucas, yeah.

479
00:22:20.940 --> 00:22:24.240
He's a really good character and so is Flower.

480
00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:24.900
Very well performed.

481
00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:28.619
Well, in her very, very short appearance in the show.

482
00:22:28.680 --> 00:22:32.880
She's only there in episode one and she's clearly stronger than

483
00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:35.579
him and more sensible and capable.

484
00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:39.299
Can't keep her earrings on her head.

485
00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:41.759
They slip backwards through time.

486
00:22:43.740 --> 00:22:48.119
Something that is very successful about this. story is that

487
00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:50.400
romance between Flower Child and Bellboy.

488
00:22:50.460 --> 00:22:53.700
And as short as her appearance is, as you mentioned, Nathan, the

489
00:22:53.700 --> 00:22:57.059
scenes we have of them together are incredibly short.

490
00:22:57.359 --> 00:23:02.160
And yet they, at least in my mind, they cement that, yeah, this is

491
00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:03.420
a pre-existing relationship.

492
00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:04.500
They really love each other.

493
00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:05.460
They really care for each other.

494
00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:10.680
Something I then love which feeds off that is when Belbo gets back

495
00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:12.599
to the circus and sees Morgana.

496
00:23:12.660 --> 00:23:16.019
He thinks she's flower child, like he's he's that desperate to see

497
00:23:16.019 --> 00:23:16.259
her.

498
00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:20.640
But then when he meets Ace, you know, if this had been Joe Grant

499
00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:22.319
they would have developed a romance between them.

500
00:23:22.380 --> 00:23:28.019
Whereas with Ace, they don't, they don't have to develop a romance

501
00:23:28.019 --> 00:23:31.259
for her to have a connection with a male character.

502
00:23:31.319 --> 00:23:35.220
You know, she gets a connection with him through robotics because

503
00:23:35.220 --> 00:23:37.259
she's like, this is, you know, this is a really neat control

504
00:23:37.259 --> 00:23:37.680
unit.

505
00:23:37.740 --> 00:23:42.240
And yeah, that scene where he says, you know, I'll distract them

506
00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:43.019
while you get away.

507
00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:45.960
Yeah, I think that is really well performed by Sophie.

508
00:23:46.019 --> 00:23:48.420
I think another really good performance in that scene where he

509
00:23:48.420 --> 00:23:49.079
finally does it.

510
00:23:49.140 --> 00:23:53.640
Of course, Bellboy himself and his performance, you know, you used

511
00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:57.299
to be a really talented clown and then the chief clown hits him

512
00:23:57.299 --> 00:23:58.799
and he says, I'm not helping you anymore.

513
00:23:58.859 --> 00:24:00.359
And does it.

514
00:24:00.420 --> 00:24:03.599
Ian Reddington is the chief clown, you know, all the way through

515
00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:04.500
he's been really nasty.

516
00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:07.440
The look on his face when Bellboy does that, he's actually

517
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:08.339
disturbed for a moment.

518
00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:11.819
But then, but then he puts the mask back on.

519
00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:15.119
And the hand and Brendan's doing the hand right now too.

520
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:17.640
Ian Reddington is the centre of the dark centre of this.

521
00:24:17.700 --> 00:24:24.539
Well, you essentially have Bellboy who has the job of carrying

522
00:24:24.539 --> 00:24:31.200
that deeper theme about the loss of innocence, of the generation

523
00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:32.640
of the 1960s.

524
00:24:32.700 --> 00:24:36.180
Like, he's the one who essentially explains to us that that's what

525
00:24:36.180 --> 00:24:37.259
this story is about.

526
00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:41.460
And the doctor encapsulates it as, you know, a fun hippie circus

527
00:24:41.460 --> 00:24:43.559
gets turned into a machine for killing people.

528
00:24:43.559 --> 00:24:46.319
And that's what that generation did.

529
00:24:46.380 --> 00:24:51.119
You know, they were playing and amusing themselves and so proud of

530
00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:55.619
of their creativity and their, you know, freedom from the previous

531
00:24:55.619 --> 00:24:59.099
generation's streatures and then they got to a certain age and

532
00:24:59.099 --> 00:25:03.779
just turned into sort of gruesome capitalists, who, you know

533
00:25:03.779 --> 00:25:07.319
chewed their way through the demography of the society that they

534
00:25:07.319 --> 00:25:08.460
found themselves in.

535
00:25:08.579 --> 00:25:11.579
And he's the one who tells us that.

536
00:25:11.640 --> 00:25:17.279
And then I think the chief clown, who's the only one who doesn't

537
00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:21.660
feel some kind of anxiety about where they've found themselves.

538
00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:25.500
Morgana is unhappy with what's happened to the circus and says

539
00:25:25.500 --> 00:25:30.420
that the ringmaster is angry all the time.

540
00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:36.480
In a very kind of, you know, angry 80s way, but there is some kind

541
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:38.400
of loss of innocence behind that anger.

542
00:25:38.460 --> 00:25:42.779
And the only one who's really wholeheartedly into what he's doing

543
00:25:42.779 --> 00:25:48.059
is the chief clown and he's the one who kills the others, you know

544
00:25:48.059 --> 00:25:48.779
he is...

545
00:25:48.779 --> 00:25:51.480
And with the ringmaster, I'm not far behind him.

546
00:25:51.539 --> 00:25:55.500
Yeah, well, but he does, he's the one who kills the ringmaster. and

547
00:25:55.500 --> 00:25:56.819
Morgana as well.

548
00:25:56.880 --> 00:25:59.940
Yeah, it's kind of a, it's kind of a sliding scale.

549
00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:03.599
Like if you were to look at it in terms of role-playing game

550
00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:04.259
morality.

551
00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:06.779
The chief clown is your chaotic evil.

552
00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:10.619
The, um, the ringmaster is probably your neutral evil.

553
00:26:10.680 --> 00:26:14.460
And then Morgana is.

554
00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:17.220
Does it disturb other listeners that...

555
00:26:17.220 --> 00:26:20.640
Brendan has a hierarchy of evil.

556
00:26:20.700 --> 00:26:23.220
No, I actually think you're quite...

557
00:26:23.220 --> 00:26:24.779
I think you're quite wrong, Brendan.

558
00:26:24.839 --> 00:26:28.019
I think that I think that, you know, that hippie circus thing is

559
00:26:28.019 --> 00:26:28.859
chaotic good.

560
00:26:28.859 --> 00:26:30.539
We're all into letting it hang out.

561
00:26:30.599 --> 00:26:33.900
And they've now turned into a machine.

562
00:26:33.900 --> 00:26:35.759
And Bell boy calls it a machine.

563
00:26:35.819 --> 00:26:40.559
This, you know, yeah, it's because Nathan and I were alive and, and

564
00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:44.039
you know, semi-conscious in the 80s and we were both at school.

565
00:26:44.099 --> 00:26:48.779
But the, our parents were this generation and we had friends who

566
00:26:48.779 --> 00:26:52.440
this, and we'd just seen all of this way before Matt Wiener's

567
00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:56.039
madmen, remembrance of the dialect showed us that the 60s were not

568
00:26:56.039 --> 00:27:00.000
the cool place, but with the slow jazz that our parents said they

569
00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:00.240
were.

570
00:27:00.299 --> 00:27:03.299
This is about the death of the hippie movement or the death of the

571
00:27:03.299 --> 00:27:06.420
ideals of the hippie movement and what Britain has become and

572
00:27:06.420 --> 00:27:07.259
America as well.

573
00:27:07.319 --> 00:27:09.779
It's just, you know, it helps that you've actually got US actors

574
00:27:09.779 --> 00:27:13.200
in this with genuine accents, not just doing them.

575
00:27:13.380 --> 00:27:17.400
So when we saw with remembrance that it wasn't mod cool, but it

576
00:27:17.400 --> 00:27:18.359
was racist hot.

577
00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:19.920
Yeah.

578
00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:21.059
Mushal McLuan.

579
00:27:21.119 --> 00:27:22.500
The hippies.

580
00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:23.819
Oh, God.

581
00:27:23.880 --> 00:27:25.200
When we were young.

582
00:27:25.259 --> 00:27:28.440
Okay, we saw the tail end of them, but they were putting on the

583
00:27:28.440 --> 00:27:31.859
Donovan albums and you would hear Sergeant Pepper and the White

584
00:27:31.859 --> 00:27:32.880
album and all the rest of it.

585
00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:35.519
And our parents would talk about, or you'd see on TV, people

586
00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:38.579
talking about, you know, that generation, which we spoke of free

587
00:27:38.579 --> 00:27:42.539
love and we, you know, and they said, and their hopes for the

588
00:27:42.539 --> 00:27:42.839
future.

589
00:27:42.900 --> 00:27:45.960
But what that whole movement, say for free love, was actually all

590
00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:49.259
about men having what they wanted, and women being entirely

591
00:27:49.259 --> 00:27:52.619
subjugated to atavistic libidos.

592
00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:54.720
And this is this is the natural outcome.

593
00:27:54.779 --> 00:27:57.299
I was just going to say, because it's the same generation that

594
00:27:57.299 --> 00:28:01.980
produced people like Steve Jobs, George Lucas, cross yourself.

595
00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:06.839
And Richard Branson, who was a big deal in the early 80s rising

596
00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:08.700
star with his virgin chat.

597
00:28:08.759 --> 00:28:13.799
I mean, how, actually, how creepy is using the whole brand of

598
00:28:13.799 --> 00:28:14.519
virgin anyway?

599
00:28:14.579 --> 00:28:17.160
It was like we haven't forgotten what Free Love was about, mate.

600
00:28:17.220 --> 00:28:17.759
It was about you.

601
00:28:17.819 --> 00:28:18.960
Wasn't it?

602
00:28:19.019 --> 00:28:22.980
Yeah, it's the self-same people who all spoke about workers and

603
00:28:22.980 --> 00:28:24.599
managers having equal pay.

604
00:28:24.599 --> 00:28:27.720
Which was another part of that late 60s movement.

605
00:28:27.779 --> 00:28:31.799
These are the same people who are subjugating whole factory towns

606
00:28:31.799 --> 00:28:32.880
under Thatcher.

607
00:28:32.940 --> 00:28:37.140
Um, and then firing them or going, moving their businesses off to

608
00:28:37.140 --> 00:28:40.079
China or moving them off to near Asia, Hong Kong when Hong Kong

609
00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:42.960
was closing, of course, in 10 years, they were starting to make

610
00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:44.640
deals with the mainland China.

611
00:28:44.700 --> 00:28:48.900
We now find it very easy to blame other governments and other

612
00:28:48.900 --> 00:28:51.900
regimes for their way of thinking, but we really assisted them to

613
00:28:51.900 --> 00:28:52.559
get to where they are.

614
00:28:52.619 --> 00:28:55.859
Now, we are really, really tired with this.

615
00:28:56.160 --> 00:28:57.960
As a culture.

616
00:28:58.019 --> 00:29:01.200
And Doctor Who was one of the 1st media pieces to pick up on it?

617
00:29:01.259 --> 00:29:06.000
And also, considering the idea of the production machine.

618
00:29:06.059 --> 00:29:10.740
I think Doctor Who was the only weekly drama left that was an in

619
00:29:10.200 --> 00:29:11.940
house production for the BBC.

620
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:13.920
It was still made, it was, yeah, it was still made at television

621
00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:14.460
centre.

622
00:29:14.519 --> 00:29:18.059
Whereas everything else was being made externally, in a production

623
00:29:18.059 --> 00:29:18.779
machine.

624
00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:23.099
Stephen Fry on a bit of fry and lorry lampoons it brilliantly at

625
00:29:23.099 --> 00:29:23.460
one point.

626
00:29:23.579 --> 00:29:25.619
There's this sketch where he's a waiter.

627
00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:28.319
Can he sees someone in charge of BBC one?

628
00:29:28.380 --> 00:29:30.359
It's always Hugh Bloody Lorry, is it?

629
00:29:30.420 --> 00:29:32.460
It was some kind of guest role.

630
00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:33.359
I don't think it was.

631
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:33.960
Emma Thompson.

632
00:29:34.019 --> 00:29:35.220
Yes, he was Emma Thompson.

633
00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:39.660
But when he's talking to him about, oh, you know, the BBC's going

634
00:29:39.660 --> 00:29:41.640
so well and you're getting so many other people involved, he looks

635
00:29:41.640 --> 00:29:44.039
down at the table and says, oh, you've only got a knife and a

636
00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:44.279
fork.

637
00:29:44.579 --> 00:29:47.460
And the guy says yes.

638
00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:49.740
Oh, well, we can't have this.

639
00:29:49.799 --> 00:29:53.579
And Stephen goes and gets a giant garbage bag full of plastic

640
00:29:53.579 --> 00:29:56.819
cutlery and dumps it on the table and says, there you are.

641
00:29:56.880 --> 00:29:57.960
Now you've got choice.

642
00:29:58.019 --> 00:29:59.519
Okay, you can't find anything.

643
00:29:59.579 --> 00:30:02.099
Everything's the same and there's far too much of it, but at least

644
00:30:02.099 --> 00:30:04.200
you've got choice and wanders off.

645
00:30:04.980 --> 00:30:08.460
And this was what they were being made by the BBC.

646
00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:13.259
And Jonathan Powell chortling away like a god of Ragnarok.

647
00:30:13.799 --> 00:30:18.420
But it also reminds me of something I once asked my mother, and it

648
00:30:18.420 --> 00:30:20.160
could have been in relation to the story.

649
00:30:20.220 --> 00:30:23.339
I turned to I turned to her and said, as a kid.

650
00:30:23.400 --> 00:30:25.319
Do all black men rap, mummy?

651
00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:29.519
Were you and dad hippies, I said.

652
00:30:29.579 --> 00:30:33.720
And my mother's response and it gains more relevance with each

653
00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:34.380
passing year.

654
00:30:34.440 --> 00:30:37.440
No, darling, we were far too poor to be hippies.

655
00:30:37.500 --> 00:30:38.279
Exactly.

656
00:30:38.339 --> 00:30:41.640
They had a term, rich hippies, very precisely the people we've

657
00:30:41.640 --> 00:30:41.940
talked about.

658
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:45.299
You see it now, you've got Bono and what's his face?

659
00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:52.259
With £600000000 minimum each, that's the known worth of Mr. Orange

660
00:30:52.259 --> 00:30:55.319
sunglasses, telling us all, you know, give a bit more money to the

661
00:30:55.319 --> 00:30:56.039
hot Africans.

662
00:30:56.099 --> 00:30:59.579
How about you give everything you've got and live there like the

663
00:30:59.579 --> 00:31:01.859
rest of us, and then we'll apportionately do the same thing.

664
00:31:01.920 --> 00:31:06.180
Yeah, well, Bono, is it Bono in that band in, sorry, is it?

665
00:31:06.180 --> 00:31:07.380
I don't know what band it is either.

666
00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:10.619
Is it Bono in you 2 who wears the hat and that's his thing.

667
00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:11.880
He wears a hat or is that edge?

668
00:31:11.940 --> 00:31:15.779
Anyway, one of them wears a... practically drawing their pensions

669
00:31:15.779 --> 00:31:16.859
when I was clubbing.

670
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:20.640
How could they how could they be called the edge?

671
00:31:20.759 --> 00:31:22.500
Is that like doing it in front of a salad?

672
00:31:22.619 --> 00:31:25.859
But one of, can we get to the store?

673
00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:29.759
Anyway, one of you 2 wears a hat.

674
00:31:30.539 --> 00:31:33.720
And for the live 20 thing, the 20th anniversary of Live 8 a few

675
00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:37.319
years ago, they forgot their hat in Ireland and had it flown over

676
00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:43.859
on its own plane to a concert, in part about global warming and

677
00:31:43.859 --> 00:31:45.000
damaging the environment.

678
00:31:45.660 --> 00:31:48.660
Yes, we can now get onto the stores later.

679
00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:51.359
And we are now at the river fruit, aren't we?

680
00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:52.140
The state of that.

681
00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:53.099
Well, I just...

682
00:31:53.099 --> 00:31:54.119
Don't call Matthew Ward.

683
00:31:54.359 --> 00:31:58.259
I was just going to say that you, as we've been discussing, you

684
00:31:58.259 --> 00:32:01.200
know, gender fluidity in casting is nothing new to Doctor.

685
00:32:01.259 --> 00:32:03.660
You know who was originally cast as the stores lady?

686
00:32:03.720 --> 00:32:04.740
It wasn't piggy mounted all.

687
00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:05.460
Brian bless it.

688
00:32:05.460 --> 00:32:05.940
I wish.

689
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:06.660
No, that was last week.

690
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:07.500
It was Bill Fraser.

691
00:32:07.619 --> 00:32:08.400
Oh, wow.

692
00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:10.200
General Grugger fame.

693
00:32:10.259 --> 00:32:12.119
Yeah, it was still going to be the stall's lady, though.

694
00:32:12.180 --> 00:32:14.460
Yeah, yeah, but he turned it down because he would not be allowed

695
00:32:14.460 --> 00:32:16.319
to kick Keth McCulloch.

696
00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:19.500
She's terrific.

697
00:32:19.559 --> 00:32:21.299
Oh my god, she's amazing, Peggy.

698
00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:23.460
She is, just to get back to what we were saying.

699
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:27.240
She is the casual viewer of Doctor Who at this time, sitting at

700
00:32:27.240 --> 00:32:29.700
home, thinking, you're all a bit...

701
00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:31.079
Is there no end to you, weirdo?

702
00:32:31.140 --> 00:32:33.539
I thought you were one of the normal ones.

703
00:32:33.960 --> 00:32:34.799
Debbie what?

704
00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:35.519
Exactly.

705
00:32:35.579 --> 00:32:37.200
She was the Debbie Watling all the time.

706
00:32:37.259 --> 00:32:40.019
But yeah, no, she's, she's our mum's and dad, the people who

707
00:32:40.019 --> 00:32:44.700
weren't involved in this hyperbole, ridiculous ego fonting that

708
00:32:44.700 --> 00:32:47.339
was resulted in the Bransons and...

709
00:32:47.339 --> 00:32:47.759
Yeah.

710
00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:51.059
Well, she's a normal person and she's, her planet is being used

711
00:32:51.059 --> 00:32:56.279
for the sake of this machine for killing people and she resents

712
00:32:56.279 --> 00:32:56.640
it.

713
00:32:56.700 --> 00:32:58.200
She doesn't like those people.

714
00:32:58.259 --> 00:33:02.339
And so originally when we look at her, we kind of think, oh, she's

715
00:33:02.339 --> 00:33:05.460
a norm, you know, she doesn't get it, sort of thing.

716
00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:06.359
It's a not wee, yeah.

717
00:33:07.019 --> 00:33:09.720
But I do think that we get sympathy for her at the end because

718
00:33:09.720 --> 00:33:13.680
what she objects to in the circus is that the circus is horrible

719
00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:16.859
you know, that the circus is awful.

720
00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:18.359
And she's right to object to it.

721
00:33:18.420 --> 00:33:21.119
So it's a wonderful comedy performance.

722
00:33:21.180 --> 00:33:26.039
It's a lovely, lovely, Sophie Aldred apparently coached her for

723
00:33:26.039 --> 00:33:27.420
upper middle-class accent.

724
00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:33.720
I think my favourite moment with her is when, you know, the Wiz

725
00:33:33.720 --> 00:33:34.319
kid rides up.

726
00:33:34.380 --> 00:33:36.299
Oh, you're a nice, respectable young man.

727
00:33:36.359 --> 00:33:37.019
How can I help?

728
00:33:37.140 --> 00:33:39.359
Yes, can you tell me how to get to the psychic circus?

729
00:33:39.420 --> 00:33:42.240
And the whole point of that scene is just Peggy Mount's face at

730
00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:45.539
the end of it, like, oh, much like Debbie Watling at you.

731
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:46.140
Yeah.

732
00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:49.319
Really just anytime she spotted me in a crowd.

733
00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:53.400
She always had a good time before she showed up, didn't she?

734
00:33:53.640 --> 00:33:56.339
It'd been a lot going on in the green room.

735
00:33:56.400 --> 00:33:58.559
I need a fag, love.

736
00:33:58.619 --> 00:34:00.000
I'm here.

737
00:34:00.059 --> 00:34:01.799
Yeah, yeah.

738
00:34:01.859 --> 00:34:06.119
I'm thinking now of the suicide nets around the Apple factories in

739
00:34:06.119 --> 00:34:08.760
China, you know, to stop the workers jumping out of the windows

740
00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:11.400
and killing themselves. just bounce straight back up to their

741
00:34:11.400 --> 00:34:11.820
seats.

742
00:34:12.599 --> 00:34:16.619
It's the same. the same thing with with the 80s.

743
00:34:16.679 --> 00:34:19.199
I think this is more than any of the other stories we've seen or

744
00:34:19.199 --> 00:34:20.519
maybe, no, they all add together.

745
00:34:20.579 --> 00:34:26.039
The gods of Ragnarok thing, if you like, is, in fact, Branson and

746
00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:30.840
Simon Cowell, and Cheryl Cole, and possibly Madonna, because she

747
00:34:30.840 --> 00:34:33.000
was always made of stone anyway, and always ripped off other

748
00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:33.780
people's material.

749
00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:37.260
But they are, they even, they even came up with what television

750
00:34:37.260 --> 00:34:39.780
was going to be, the next millennium.

751
00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:40.920
Yeah, X Factor.

752
00:34:40.980 --> 00:34:42.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

753
00:34:42.179 --> 00:34:44.219
Didn't exist when this was made.

754
00:34:44.340 --> 00:34:46.139
It's quite odd watching this now.

755
00:34:46.260 --> 00:34:48.000
This feels really contemporary.

756
00:34:48.119 --> 00:34:53.519
I have, I very briefly worked on one season of The Voice, but in

757
00:34:53.519 --> 00:34:54.239
pre-production.

758
00:34:54.300 --> 00:34:57.119
I haven't worked on any other talent shows like that, but having

759
00:34:57.119 --> 00:34:58.139
spoken to people who do.

760
00:34:58.199 --> 00:35:01.679
It's a tight turnaround, it's ruthless.

761
00:35:01.739 --> 00:35:04.559
You know, you've got to get you've got to keep the audience

762
00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:05.400
entertained.

763
00:35:05.460 --> 00:35:06.960
So yeah, you're absolutely right, Richard.

764
00:35:07.019 --> 00:35:10.619
It predicts that kind of thing.

765
00:35:10.679 --> 00:35:13.860
And, you know, at the time, we had things like talent time, young

766
00:35:13.860 --> 00:35:15.239
talent time and what have you.

767
00:35:15.300 --> 00:35:19.440
So there were panel entertainment shows, but it's not rapid fire

768
00:35:19.500 --> 00:35:23.039
the way it is now, and indeed, the way it is in greater show in

769
00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:23.699
the galaxy.

770
00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:26.099
You know, when there's something not going on, we keep cutting to

771
00:35:26.099 --> 00:35:29.519
the human avatars of the gods saying, oh, something must happen

772
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:30.179
soon.

773
00:35:30.300 --> 00:35:33.599
But let's not forget that these people are flawed in the

774
00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:34.139
narrative.

775
00:35:34.199 --> 00:35:35.880
Stephen M is not saying they're our heroes.

776
00:35:35.940 --> 00:35:41.340
The real failures in the narrative of the group, a Bellboy and

777
00:35:41.340 --> 00:35:41.820
Kingpin.

778
00:35:41.940 --> 00:35:45.059
And one of them never even got the role of Doctor Who, did he?

779
00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:45.900
Yes.

780
00:35:45.900 --> 00:35:46.260
Yes.

781
00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:46.860
Yes.

782
00:35:46.920 --> 00:35:49.260
Um, so that's kingpin, um, Christopher Jewry.

783
00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:49.980
Jewry, yes.

784
00:35:50.039 --> 00:35:52.980
Yeah, auditioned for the role of silver, and that's why he kind of

785
00:35:52.980 --> 00:35:55.139
got a callback for this because they liked him, just not as

786
00:35:55.139 --> 00:35:55.500
sweet.

787
00:35:55.619 --> 00:35:57.179
Yeah, sweetie, but you can see he never would have played the

788
00:35:57.179 --> 00:35:57.539
doctor.

789
00:35:57.599 --> 00:36:00.000
Apparently he said, oh, I had so much fun fiddling with the knobs

790
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:03.599
in between takes and you could see Sophie Aldred's ears prick up

791
00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:04.079
at that one.

792
00:36:04.139 --> 00:36:08.820
But no, they're the flaccid hippies, much like the descending tent

793
00:36:08.820 --> 00:36:12.000
at the end that, you know, they gave in to self-indulgence and

794
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:14.579
self-pity and egoistic introspection.

795
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:19.139
But that was also pretty much the only way you could deal with the

796
00:36:19.139 --> 00:36:26.340
calumny of this deflation of expectation that in fact, the world

797
00:36:26.340 --> 00:36:28.619
just went on to hyper capitalism.

798
00:36:28.619 --> 00:36:32.760
And these people who spoke of these things, started making TED

799
00:36:32.760 --> 00:36:33.179
talks.

800
00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:34.980
Okay, they do that now.

801
00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:38.400
But that, but that, that thing of the monstrous ego and the, the

802
00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:41.820
selling up the Anthony Rollman style of just believe, and you can

803
00:36:41.820 --> 00:36:42.239
have it.

804
00:36:42.300 --> 00:36:45.900
That came straight from the 60s, the new age movement that started

805
00:36:45.900 --> 00:36:50.280
about 8081, which was a hanger on from all those people who were

806
00:36:50.280 --> 00:36:53.760
let down by what didn't happen.

807
00:36:53.880 --> 00:36:59.159
So it all becomes sort of self-help nonsense in the service of

808
00:36:59.159 --> 00:37:02.340
allowing people to exploit others more efficiently, I think.

809
00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:04.019
Very efficiently.

810
00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:07.860
It's a perfect simulacra for what's happened from communist to

811
00:37:07.860 --> 00:37:08.639
capitalist China.

812
00:37:08.699 --> 00:37:12.179
Yeah, and Captain Cook, even outwardly criticises that.

813
00:37:12.239 --> 00:37:15.059
You know, he says these hippies with their let it all hang out

814
00:37:15.059 --> 00:37:15.659
nonsense.

815
00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:20.460
And indeed, he is more successful than them for most of the story

816
00:37:20.460 --> 00:37:23.880
in exploiting others, you know, he tricks gnawed into going in

817
00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:24.179
first.

818
00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:27.000
He tricks WizKid into going in 1st because he reads as a

819
00:37:27.000 --> 00:37:28.500
colonialist, doesn't he?

820
00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:29.280
He is wearing a piffle.

821
00:37:29.340 --> 00:37:33.119
But he's also one of, he's also John Major and the whole party

822
00:37:33.119 --> 00:37:35.820
whoever, yeah, he's also what's happening right now.

823
00:37:35.880 --> 00:37:38.579
And he's the reason they're in charge, because they're self-same

824
00:37:38.579 --> 00:37:42.000
people who believed in a beautiful future, when they don't get it

825
00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:47.280
run back to the disproportionately aggressive parent or teacher

826
00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:49.500
model and go, well, it didn't work out.

827
00:37:49.559 --> 00:37:50.760
We were wrong, spank us.

828
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:54.480
I mean, of course, you know, it wasn't lovely to see Roberta Tovey

829
00:37:54.480 --> 00:37:54.840
as well.

830
00:37:54.900 --> 00:37:57.059
And as the child god.

831
00:37:57.119 --> 00:37:58.199
Or as...

832
00:37:58.199 --> 00:38:01.199
So the gods are really spectacular.

833
00:38:01.260 --> 00:38:03.420
They really work, don't they?

834
00:38:03.480 --> 00:38:04.440
They shouldn't and they do.

835
00:38:04.500 --> 00:38:08.400
We decided that the mother looks like Eric Idol in drag for some

836
00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:08.760
reason.

837
00:38:09.780 --> 00:38:14.159
They're super menacing, and it is this thing that Wyatt did in his

838
00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:19.619
last story where the characters are allegorical and symbolic, and

839
00:38:19.619 --> 00:38:21.000
so they don't behave normally.

840
00:38:21.059 --> 00:38:24.960
And the family are really, really fabulously menacing.

841
00:38:25.019 --> 00:38:29.519
And they're one visible characteristic, I think, because they're

842
00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:30.900
from the 1950s, aren't they?

843
00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:33.300
They're an early television audience is an idea.

844
00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:35.699
Yeah, but they're hungry.

845
00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:37.199
They're always eating.

846
00:38:37.260 --> 00:38:40.320
So they're eating crisps, they're eating ice creams, they're

847
00:38:40.320 --> 00:38:41.579
hungry to see things.

848
00:38:41.639 --> 00:38:45.360
That's a theme in these seasons as well, isn't it?

849
00:38:45.420 --> 00:38:49.139
We're going to see that with the constable in Ghost Light as well

850
00:38:49.559 --> 00:38:51.360
wanting to see.

851
00:38:51.480 --> 00:38:53.699
But about the unending appetite.

852
00:38:53.760 --> 00:38:55.260
That's the casual viewer.

853
00:38:55.320 --> 00:38:58.920
But they end up being really, really remarkable.

854
00:38:58.980 --> 00:39:02.460
And and I think their role.

855
00:39:02.519 --> 00:39:06.539
Like there's one scene, which I think is absolutely superb, which

856
00:39:06.539 --> 00:39:10.739
is that scene around the Cliffhanger to episode 3 where you have

857
00:39:10.739 --> 00:39:13.139
this sort of mounting sense of threat.

858
00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:16.860
So you've got Captain Cook finally ushers them all into the ring

859
00:39:16.860 --> 00:39:21.119
triggers Mags's transformation into a werewolf, and then you get

860
00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:24.420
the doctor being chased around by the werewolf, and that's where

861
00:39:24.420 --> 00:39:25.619
the cliffhanger comes in.

862
00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:29.760
But by that point, we've, we get a little moment of the family

863
00:39:29.760 --> 00:39:32.760
showing up there 10 out of 10 thing because they're really

864
00:39:32.760 --> 00:39:34.619
enjoying this part of the show.

865
00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:39.059
But by the time they come back into play, we've more or less

866
00:39:39.059 --> 00:39:40.019
forgotten about them.

867
00:39:40.079 --> 00:39:43.500
And then they stand up in front of the doctor and do the glowy eye

868
00:39:43.500 --> 00:39:45.420
thing and push him down back into the ring.

869
00:39:45.420 --> 00:39:49.079
And then there's mags instantly and the whole thing is going for

870
00:39:49.079 --> 00:39:51.000
some minutes, I think, into episode four.

871
00:39:51.059 --> 00:39:55.559
It's not like a cliffhanger where someone comes in and says no

872
00:39:55.559 --> 00:39:56.039
way.

873
00:39:56.159 --> 00:40:01.679
And then the whole threat is, you know, kind of they do a Davison

874
00:40:02.099 --> 00:40:07.500
everybody. where the whole threat's diffused, it keeps building to

875
00:40:07.500 --> 00:40:11.219
a really fantastic climax and the death of Captain Cook, and that

876
00:40:11.219 --> 00:40:15.480
wonderful, the spinning lamp, the spinning light that we see at

877
00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:16.019
the very end of it.

878
00:40:16.079 --> 00:40:19.980
And Alan Waring is so careful in choreographing that.

879
00:40:20.039 --> 00:40:23.340
Like he creates some really, really beautiful images throughout

880
00:40:23.340 --> 00:40:27.960
the episode, but that's a really, really well choreographed action

881
00:40:27.960 --> 00:40:28.800
scene.

882
00:40:28.860 --> 00:40:32.159
And it's Mark Ayres' 1st music for the program.

883
00:40:32.219 --> 00:40:33.719
And it's amazing.

884
00:40:33.780 --> 00:40:36.599
I wanted to say the score is gorgeous, isn't it?

885
00:40:36.659 --> 00:40:40.559
I really think Mark is makes this work so well.

886
00:40:40.619 --> 00:40:45.059
Yeah, and of course, we should mention, ever since then, he's been

887
00:40:45.059 --> 00:40:47.159
a champion for the sound on Doctor Who.

888
00:40:47.219 --> 00:40:49.380
And so for all the classic series, DVD releases.

889
00:40:49.500 --> 00:40:51.420
He's been the one who's tidied up the sound.

890
00:40:51.480 --> 00:40:54.179
There's some fascinating documentaries on some of the discs about

891
00:40:54.179 --> 00:40:56.820
that and he'll sometimes say, yeah, I've done this from multiple

892
00:40:56.820 --> 00:41:00.059
sources and the 1st 10 minutes of this audio is really good, but

893
00:41:00.059 --> 00:41:01.559
I've used the 2nd 10 minutes from here.

894
00:41:01.619 --> 00:41:05.820
Um, you know, so if you are interested in audio and video

895
00:41:05.820 --> 00:41:08.820
production, any talk by Mark Ayres is fascinating.

896
00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:12.840
That scene with Mags killing Captain Cook.

897
00:41:12.900 --> 00:41:17.159
Something I really love about it is at one point where she's

898
00:41:17.159 --> 00:41:20.699
chasing the doctor, the doctor says to her, you know, I know this

899
00:41:20.699 --> 00:41:22.260
is hard for you, but you don't have to kill.

900
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:24.539
You don't, and he keeps saying to her, you don't have to kill.

901
00:41:24.599 --> 00:41:27.119
And then when she turns on the captain, he's still imploring her

902
00:41:27.119 --> 00:41:28.019
no, don't kill him.

903
00:41:28.079 --> 00:41:29.340
He's aghast.

904
00:41:29.400 --> 00:41:33.059
He gets a reaction shot to Mag's killing the captain because you

905
00:41:33.059 --> 00:41:33.780
don't really see it.

906
00:41:33.840 --> 00:41:38.219
She kind of leaps at him, but they end up off screen.

907
00:41:38.280 --> 00:41:40.139
You know where that shot comes from, don't you?

908
00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:42.659
I saw it in 1975 on telly.

909
00:41:42.719 --> 00:41:46.380
It's a film called The Seven Faces of Dr. Lao by George Powell

910
00:41:46.380 --> 00:41:50.340
which is based on a much, much smarter book, and that what you're

911
00:41:50.340 --> 00:41:51.420
both just saying.

912
00:41:51.480 --> 00:41:54.300
That's the linchpin, the kingpin, the linchpin of this story.

913
00:41:54.360 --> 00:41:56.159
We are not wrong.

914
00:41:56.219 --> 00:42:00.179
The narrative is about casual viewing of horrible things and how

915
00:42:00.179 --> 00:42:04.320
we all sit back and that hopes and dreams get subsumed by, you

916
00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:07.860
know, by sitting there eating creamed corn and custard, tending

917
00:42:07.860 --> 00:42:11.940
it's delicious. 7 paces of Dr. Lau based on a book by Charles

918
00:42:11.940 --> 00:42:14.639
Finney called The Circus of Dr. Lau, which I have to admit, I

919
00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:18.360
haven't read, but looking it up, it's the story of some town in

920
00:42:18.360 --> 00:42:21.179
Arizona, I don't know, caboose, poke, or whatever it was called.

921
00:42:21.239 --> 00:42:25.199
And it's denizens were completely oblivious to the extraordinary

922
00:42:25.199 --> 00:42:26.820
things that Dr. Lau brought to them.

923
00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:31.139
And yes, he's got the long fingernails and the whole Sax Rome, Fu

924
00:42:31.139 --> 00:42:31.920
Manchu thing.

925
00:42:31.980 --> 00:42:34.139
But it's a peace take of all of that as well.

926
00:42:34.199 --> 00:42:38.280
So what happens is the entire town watch, the reenactment of the

927
00:42:38.280 --> 00:42:41.460
fall of an ancient city, and it might have actually been the

928
00:42:41.460 --> 00:42:45.420
entire town watching itself because it's quite clever when the way

929
00:42:45.420 --> 00:42:47.519
it's done is you're not sure whether it's actually happening or

930
00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:49.500
whether they're viewing it or whether they're wanting to sing it

931
00:42:49.500 --> 00:42:49.920
themselves.

932
00:42:49.980 --> 00:42:52.260
It's a very Doctor Who tropish thing to do.

933
00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:57.119
But there is a werewolf character in it called Maggie Slozny, or

934
00:42:57.119 --> 00:43:01.679
Mag, Maggie Slozny, and the story is really about how that

935
00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:05.699
generation screwed up, you know, watching, screwed up, though, and

936
00:43:05.699 --> 00:43:08.340
they talk, he's talking about post-war and post-Corean war when it

937
00:43:08.340 --> 00:43:08.639
came out.

938
00:43:08.699 --> 00:43:10.019
It's not a good film.

939
00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:13.559
It's got Tony Randall from the Odd Couple in Asian drag.

940
00:43:13.619 --> 00:43:14.340
Really?

941
00:43:14.340 --> 00:43:15.420
Yeah.

942
00:43:15.480 --> 00:43:17.280
I liked it better when he was a gremlin.

943
00:43:17.400 --> 00:43:18.300
I liked him.

944
00:43:18.360 --> 00:43:19.619
No.

945
00:43:19.619 --> 00:43:20.820
Seeing that?

946
00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:21.900
It's in gremlins too.

947
00:43:21.960 --> 00:43:22.559
Is he?

948
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:24.780
He's in one of my favourite films of all time, which is done with

949
00:43:24.780 --> 00:43:27.719
love with Renee Wither or whatever her name is.

950
00:43:27.780 --> 00:43:29.760
Zell...

951
00:43:29.820 --> 00:43:30.719
Renee Zellweger?

952
00:43:30.780 --> 00:43:33.360
Renaissance, Zeppelin Weger.

953
00:43:33.420 --> 00:43:39.960
And that bloke that likes vomiting in train in lavatories, yes.

954
00:43:40.019 --> 00:43:41.159
Ewan McGregor.

955
00:43:41.219 --> 00:43:43.019
She's really well cast.

956
00:43:43.079 --> 00:43:45.960
He really miscast, but it's the most perfect take on the early

957
00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:46.559
60s.

958
00:43:46.679 --> 00:43:49.619
And Tony Randall plays the evil media magnet.

959
00:43:49.679 --> 00:43:53.219
Oh, yeah, sticks to every fridge surface.

960
00:43:53.460 --> 00:43:55.559
He's Jonathan Price.

961
00:43:55.619 --> 00:43:59.519
Well, I mean, I think, can you tell people what that is?

962
00:43:59.639 --> 00:44:03.719
Steve Jobs, Jonathan Price was Steve Jobs in that, wasn't he?

963
00:44:03.780 --> 00:44:07.260
Brendan posted a lovely thing of a Murdoch paper review of

964
00:44:07.260 --> 00:44:08.699
Tomorrow Never Dies at the time.

965
00:44:08.760 --> 00:44:11.699
It was actually Oh, and he doesn't exist on this podcast.

966
00:44:12.840 --> 00:44:14.340
Tag.

967
00:44:14.400 --> 00:44:15.719
I'm his proxy.

968
00:44:15.780 --> 00:44:19.559
So the magic scene at the end with Sylvester doing magic.

969
00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:22.679
That when his pants are almost blown off over his head and he

970
00:44:22.679 --> 00:44:23.699
tries not to flinch.

971
00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:25.440
That's a magic scene.

972
00:44:25.800 --> 00:44:29.219
I'm glad he's wearing the brown chick trousers.

973
00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:30.780
I wouldn't have made it out of that scene intact.

974
00:44:30.840 --> 00:44:33.119
Well, you know, how silver always tells that story.

975
00:44:33.179 --> 00:44:35.280
I didn't know the explosion was going to be so big, but I just

976
00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:35.880
kept walking.

977
00:44:35.940 --> 00:44:38.099
I didn't even know if I had any clothes at the back afterwards.

978
00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:39.300
Turns out what it was.

979
00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:41.699
They were just going to use air mortars.

980
00:44:41.760 --> 00:44:43.380
But the air mortars didn't work.

981
00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:45.300
So they said, fine, we'll use actual explosives.

982
00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:48.780
But nobody told SEL that it was going to be actual explosives

983
00:44:48.780 --> 00:44:51.420
which is why it's so much bigger than he was expecting.

984
00:44:51.480 --> 00:44:54.960
It is an iconic moment for that doctor though, isn't it?

985
00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:58.019
Where he walks away and just doesn't flinch as it explodes behind

986
00:44:58.019 --> 00:44:58.440
him.

987
00:44:58.500 --> 00:45:01.079
For any other doctor, it would have been a metaphor for the end of

988
00:45:01.079 --> 00:45:01.500
his career.

989
00:45:01.679 --> 00:45:06.059
But did you know Silvie's the only doctor that was working full

990
00:45:05.340 --> 00:45:06.059
time?

991
00:45:06.119 --> 00:45:09.480
Janet Fielding loves making jokes about Peter always buggering off

992
00:45:09.480 --> 00:45:12.119
to another. another gig in the middle.

993
00:45:12.179 --> 00:45:13.139
Yeah, yeah.

994
00:45:13.199 --> 00:45:15.659
But it's actually Silver's the only one of the original doctors

995
00:45:15.659 --> 00:45:17.579
who's pretty much constantly been in work.

996
00:45:17.639 --> 00:45:21.000
And even while this was on, he called this his summer job, because

997
00:45:21.000 --> 00:45:21.780
he was always working.

998
00:45:21.840 --> 00:45:24.780
So I would say this to his critics to say, oh, he's he's

999
00:45:24.780 --> 00:45:27.900
undecipherable in principle in your kind of order, and you cannot

1000
00:45:27.900 --> 00:45:28.980
understand a word he says.

1001
00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:32.340
And I did find when I was young watching this, I did really did

1002
00:45:32.340 --> 00:45:35.159
find the accent hard to follow because we're not British, so we're

1003
00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:35.760
not used to hearing it.

1004
00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:40.139
And he does, you know, throw away most of his lines, much like

1005
00:45:40.139 --> 00:45:40.739
this podcast.

1006
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:45.960
But, but, but, but he has real gravitas, there's real truth and

1007
00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:46.320
feeling.

1008
00:45:46.380 --> 00:45:50.340
And I'm finding him utterly hypnotic, I don't look away.

1009
00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:53.460
Mostly there's something else on screen that grabs your attention

1010
00:45:53.460 --> 00:45:54.360
even when the doctor's there.

1011
00:45:54.420 --> 00:45:57.780
But he's got that billy quality of, I'm always watching Billy, and

1012
00:45:57.780 --> 00:46:01.019
I'm all, well, Barbara, and I'm always, and I'm always watching

1013
00:46:01.019 --> 00:46:01.739
Sylves.

1014
00:46:01.800 --> 00:46:06.239
Yeah, I find something I've looked back on, especially with that

1015
00:46:06.239 --> 00:46:10.199
moment with Mags and after her transformation where he's, he's

1016
00:46:10.199 --> 00:46:11.639
kind of comforting her and leads her away.

1017
00:46:11.699 --> 00:46:15.239
If you look back at time and the Rani, when, you know, quite

1018
00:46:15.239 --> 00:46:18.659
understandably, his performance was still very fluid and all over

1019
00:46:18.659 --> 00:46:19.079
the place.

1020
00:46:19.139 --> 00:46:24.719
When Bayes says, no, I'll stay, as the doctor pushes Faroon out of

1021
00:46:24.719 --> 00:46:25.079
the room.

1022
00:46:25.139 --> 00:46:26.639
But he was meant to be Colin Baker.

1023
00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:32.099
But as the doctor pushes Faru out of the room, he turns Silv turns

1024
00:46:32.099 --> 00:46:35.039
back to Donald Pickering and just gives him this amazing look.

1025
00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:40.079
And it's what we have since commented on is sort of the doctor's

1026
00:46:40.079 --> 00:46:44.940
look of sorrow and shock and it's the same look he gives mags in

1027
00:46:44.940 --> 00:46:47.280
this after she's killed the captain.

1028
00:46:47.340 --> 00:46:48.480
It's this.

1029
00:46:49.800 --> 00:46:55.860
It's this look of sadness and a little bit helplessness, like he

1030
00:46:55.860 --> 00:46:58.920
you know, I'm all powerful, but there's nothing I can do in this

1031
00:46:58.920 --> 00:47:00.840
situation kind of thing.

1032
00:47:00.900 --> 00:47:04.739
I never, have never understood, and it's possibly because Silv was

1033
00:47:04.739 --> 00:47:05.219
my doctor.

1034
00:47:05.280 --> 00:47:08.099
I've never understood the people who say he can't act.

1035
00:47:08.219 --> 00:47:11.099
Watching season 26 the other week.

1036
00:47:11.159 --> 00:47:15.840
I do think there's one, there is one moment of anger.

1037
00:47:15.900 --> 00:47:18.179
He gets wrong in his whole tenure.

1038
00:47:18.239 --> 00:47:19.199
In Ghostlight.

1039
00:47:19.320 --> 00:47:21.599
No, actually, it's in battlefield.

1040
00:47:21.960 --> 00:47:24.000
But I'll discuss that.

1041
00:47:24.059 --> 00:47:25.500
I'll discuss that next week.

1042
00:47:25.559 --> 00:47:27.900
Here, I think he pitches the performance perfectly.

1043
00:47:27.900 --> 00:47:30.119
In the scene where he's doing like a tent.

1044
00:47:30.179 --> 00:47:31.260
You know, like a tent.

1045
00:47:31.320 --> 00:47:34.619
In the scene where he's doing magic with the gods of Ragnarok.

1046
00:47:34.679 --> 00:47:36.239
Love that so much.

1047
00:47:36.539 --> 00:47:41.280
That's a piss take of Blackpool, Pier, and Ken and Dottie, Ken

1048
00:47:41.280 --> 00:47:43.139
Dodd, and he's earlier career, actually.

1049
00:47:43.199 --> 00:47:46.320
There's that bit in the TARDIS in episode one where he's

1050
00:47:46.320 --> 00:47:46.739
juggling.

1051
00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:49.199
Do you know he had to turn to balls disappears?

1052
00:47:49.260 --> 00:47:51.000
He had to learn to...

1053
00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:55.320
That book was actually the book he was using to learn to juggle.

1054
00:47:55.380 --> 00:47:55.920
Everyone to shoot.

1055
00:47:55.980 --> 00:47:56.940
No, he's never done it.

1056
00:47:57.000 --> 00:47:58.380
Because at the read through.

1057
00:47:58.440 --> 00:48:01.500
He reads in the script, the doctor juggles and he just looks up

1058
00:48:01.500 --> 00:48:02.519
and says, I can't juggle.

1059
00:48:02.579 --> 00:48:03.539
And...

1060
00:48:03.539 --> 00:48:05.099
But Chuck can Campbell in that.

1061
00:48:05.219 --> 00:48:09.659
But they're like, we wrote this because you were in a circus.

1062
00:48:09.719 --> 00:48:10.920
He's like, yeah, but I never juggled.

1063
00:48:10.980 --> 00:48:12.360
I hammered nails up my nose.

1064
00:48:12.420 --> 00:48:14.699
Yeah, it's something bummer.

1065
00:48:14.760 --> 00:48:17.280
You know, you should try it sometimes as a video for that.

1066
00:48:17.340 --> 00:48:18.360
Brenda's got it, right?

1067
00:48:18.659 --> 00:48:19.679
Right in front of the salad.

1068
00:48:20.579 --> 00:48:25.139
But during that magic scene, he actually had a professional

1069
00:48:25.139 --> 00:48:27.179
magician called Jeffrey Durham...

1070
00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:28.739
Yes, had to take him away to a dark place.

1071
00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:29.639
Yeah, yeah.

1072
00:48:29.699 --> 00:48:31.079
The set was cleared except for those.

1073
00:48:31.079 --> 00:48:31.800
Yes, it can't be seen.

1074
00:48:31.860 --> 00:48:33.659
It was proper magician's circle stuff.

1075
00:48:33.719 --> 00:48:36.360
But some of the secret men's business.

1076
00:48:36.420 --> 00:48:38.460
Some of the other tricks.

1077
00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:42.420
The escapology trick was actually something that Sylv had seen

1078
00:48:42.420 --> 00:48:45.239
done in Portugal and said to Jeffrey, can you teach me how to do

1079
00:48:45.239 --> 00:48:45.420
that?

1080
00:48:45.480 --> 00:48:49.980
The candle trick that he does was taught to him by one of his

1081
00:48:49.980 --> 00:48:50.159
sons.

1082
00:48:50.280 --> 00:48:51.480
Oh, how lovely.

1083
00:48:51.539 --> 00:48:55.079
And, you know, his son kind of did it. during the rehearsal

1084
00:48:55.079 --> 00:48:56.880
process and Saul said, hold on.

1085
00:48:56.940 --> 00:48:59.880
Show me show me how you did that because I want to do it in the

1086
00:48:59.880 --> 00:49:00.179
show.

1087
00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:05.460
So the only tricks that was specified in the script was an

1088
00:49:05.460 --> 00:49:08.460
escapology trick, which Silt said, I'll hang upside down and do it

1089
00:49:08.460 --> 00:49:08.760
that way.

1090
00:49:08.820 --> 00:49:12.480
And the gladiator's sword bit because that...

1091
00:49:12.480 --> 00:49:13.559
Gladioli.

1092
00:49:13.619 --> 00:49:14.280
Yeah, yeah.

1093
00:49:14.340 --> 00:49:16.079
Just like carry on doctor, isn't it?

1094
00:49:16.139 --> 00:49:17.519
The gladioli pulls out from it.

1095
00:49:17.579 --> 00:49:17.760
Yeah.

1096
00:49:17.820 --> 00:49:19.500
Yeah, that was a daffodil.

1097
00:49:19.559 --> 00:49:24.780
You know, as a teenager, I was watching it for the 2nd and 3rd

1098
00:49:24.780 --> 00:49:24.960
time.

1099
00:49:25.019 --> 00:49:26.820
A fifth, sixth.

1100
00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:29.639
Looking at where's the join, where's the join?

1101
00:49:29.699 --> 00:49:30.239
Yeah, yeah.

1102
00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:33.179
And then to find out, you know, no, most tricks were done

1103
00:49:33.179 --> 00:49:34.019
properly.

1104
00:49:34.079 --> 00:49:36.960
So was apparently nervous at the snake, but you just got to get on

1105
00:49:36.960 --> 00:49:37.260
with it.

1106
00:49:37.320 --> 00:49:38.460
It's amazing, isn't it?

1107
00:49:38.579 --> 00:49:40.860
Where did he get the bit of precious metal that turns into a

1108
00:49:40.860 --> 00:49:41.219
sword?

1109
00:49:41.340 --> 00:49:42.239
Eileen Way?

1110
00:49:42.300 --> 00:49:45.840
Is she one of the gods without keeping all the precious metal?

1111
00:49:45.900 --> 00:49:47.820
You know, I just don't think it matters at all.

1112
00:49:47.880 --> 00:49:49.440
No, it doesn't.

1113
00:49:49.500 --> 00:49:50.039
It's lovely.

1114
00:49:50.099 --> 00:49:53.519
It also shows this doctor is actually quite extraordinary and does

1115
00:49:53.519 --> 00:49:55.260
fiddle around with time and space.

1116
00:49:55.320 --> 00:49:57.719
You know, where does he get all that stuff out of the pockets?

1117
00:49:57.780 --> 00:50:00.840
And, you know, how does he manipulate?

1118
00:50:00.900 --> 00:50:04.260
I mean, he gets, how does he, the biggest trick of all is, how

1119
00:50:04.260 --> 00:50:09.780
does he manage to time kingpins tossing cough of the eyepiece

1120
00:50:09.780 --> 00:50:10.619
down?

1121
00:50:10.619 --> 00:50:13.199
Down to catch it right at the right time?

1122
00:50:13.199 --> 00:50:15.420
Because he's the great manipulator of...

1123
00:50:15.420 --> 00:50:16.019
Well, that's it.

1124
00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:17.519
The trickster.

1125
00:50:17.579 --> 00:50:22.139
The piece of metal links this version of entertainment to

1126
00:50:22.139 --> 00:50:24.960
gladiatorial entertainment, where people were killed, for the

1127
00:50:24.960 --> 00:50:27.420
entertainment of the audience.

1128
00:50:27.480 --> 00:50:31.860
And so it links, you know, modern television production to that.

1129
00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:33.659
I think I think it's very good.

1130
00:50:33.719 --> 00:50:34.619
I don't think it matters.

1131
00:50:34.679 --> 00:50:37.860
I wouldn't lose any sleep over how he times that at all.

1132
00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:41.940
No, and nor should you, but again, it's just a lovely thing of

1133
00:50:41.940 --> 00:50:47.039
This is all coming together in ways that you shouldn't normally be

1134
00:50:47.039 --> 00:50:49.260
allowed to get away with in television narrative.

1135
00:50:49.320 --> 00:50:52.260
Yeah, we meant to, with the truthiness of TV.

1136
00:50:52.320 --> 00:50:56.820
The whole thing is so hyper real, though, and so allegorical that

1137
00:50:56.820 --> 00:50:58.440
it doesn't really matter.

1138
00:50:58.500 --> 00:51:03.059
And, you know, that tag scene at the very end where he says that

1139
00:51:03.059 --> 00:51:05.219
he finds circus is somewhat sinister.

1140
00:51:05.280 --> 00:51:11.579
That just makes it very clear that all along he's, he says

1141
00:51:11.579 --> 00:51:13.920
something about rumours, does he, or something?

1142
00:51:13.980 --> 00:51:16.260
Or is he just going because of the junk mail?

1143
00:51:16.320 --> 00:51:18.119
But then it turns out that...

1144
00:51:18.119 --> 00:51:19.619
He let the junk mail into the tunnel.

1145
00:51:19.619 --> 00:51:20.099
Yes.

1146
00:51:20.159 --> 00:51:21.480
It was completely planned.

1147
00:51:21.539 --> 00:51:23.099
He is the great manipulator.

1148
00:51:23.159 --> 00:51:26.639
Yeah, so he's Ace is saying that circus is a sinister.

1149
00:51:26.699 --> 00:51:28.260
He's saying that they're fun.

1150
00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:32.340
He's wonderful when he gets chosen to be in the ring and he looks

1151
00:51:32.340 --> 00:51:37.079
really genuinely happy and excited to be able to have the chance

1152
00:51:37.079 --> 00:51:41.280
to perform, but it's clear that just like with the Daleks, just

1153
00:51:41.280 --> 00:51:42.719
like with the Cybermen.

1154
00:51:42.780 --> 00:51:46.619
He's planned this all along all along.

1155
00:51:46.679 --> 00:51:50.519
Just like this podcast, Brendan, you planned this all along, did

1156
00:51:50.519 --> 00:51:50.699
you?

1157
00:51:50.699 --> 00:51:51.360
You did.

1158
00:51:51.420 --> 00:51:53.280
I am a god of Ragnarok.

1159
00:51:53.340 --> 00:51:54.300
I'm the little girl.

1160
00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:55.440
I'm not a little girl.

1161
00:51:55.500 --> 00:51:56.820
He's a fruit salad, really.

1162
00:51:56.880 --> 00:51:58.440
Off the podcast.

1163
00:51:58.500 --> 00:52:00.539
If I get it to be the melons.

1164
00:52:00.719 --> 00:52:05.099
So, gentlemen, it's time for our Jenny Laird awards for puzzling

1165
00:52:05.099 --> 00:52:06.179
creative choice.

1166
00:52:06.239 --> 00:52:10.619
I might start off and I'm gonna do this with a caveat of...

1167
00:52:10.619 --> 00:52:14.820
The story I'm about to discuss, I think, is the worst story of the

1168
00:52:14.820 --> 00:52:16.739
season, but it's still a 6 out of 10 from me.

1169
00:52:17.280 --> 00:52:22.260
And I am just gonna say, I think Silver Nemesis needed one more

1170
00:52:22.260 --> 00:52:23.219
script polish.

1171
00:52:23.280 --> 00:52:26.699
As I, as I discussed last week, I just don't see the point of the

1172
00:52:26.699 --> 00:52:29.699
Nazis in the story, I do think there's a bit too much wandering

1173
00:52:29.699 --> 00:52:29.940
around.

1174
00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:34.079
I'm so down on the nuts. all the time. so much for the tolerant

1175
00:52:34.079 --> 00:52:43.980
left But, you know, also, there's the similarity and plot to

1176
00:52:43.980 --> 00:52:45.000
remembrance of the Daleks.

1177
00:52:45.059 --> 00:52:46.500
It's like at the 11th hour they've gone.

1178
00:52:46.559 --> 00:52:48.480
Oh, we better put in a line about that, rub.

1179
00:52:48.480 --> 00:52:49.500
We'll try and fix it.

1180
00:52:49.559 --> 00:52:50.219
We'll lamp shirt.

1181
00:52:50.280 --> 00:52:52.260
But that being said, I still really enjoy the story.

1182
00:52:52.320 --> 00:52:55.079
I just feel it's the weakest of a strong season.

1183
00:52:55.139 --> 00:52:56.880
So that's my Jenny Letterwater.

1184
00:52:56.940 --> 00:52:59.639
Another polish for silver nemesis.

1185
00:52:59.699 --> 00:53:02.340
It's probably just the weakest, but it is my favourite.

1186
00:53:02.460 --> 00:53:03.000
It's not my favourite.

1187
00:53:03.119 --> 00:53:05.159
They all favourites in their way, but it's just the most fun.

1188
00:53:05.219 --> 00:53:07.079
It is an incredible amount of fun.

1189
00:53:07.199 --> 00:53:11.099
I mean, with this season, I'm struggling to find anything.

1190
00:53:11.159 --> 00:53:14.280
And I guess the thing that I would pinpoint isn't so much a

1191
00:53:14.280 --> 00:53:18.420
creative choice as a visible problem with some of the scripts in

1192
00:53:18.420 --> 00:53:19.019
this era.

1193
00:53:19.079 --> 00:53:22.139
And that is, I do think that some of the edits in the happiness

1194
00:53:22.139 --> 00:53:24.599
patrol don't quite work.

1195
00:53:24.659 --> 00:53:27.840
There are some things where clearly stuff is cut for time.

1196
00:53:27.900 --> 00:53:31.199
I think the most obvious one is the death of the candy man, which

1197
00:53:31.199 --> 00:53:32.579
just ends up making no sense.

1198
00:53:32.639 --> 00:53:37.260
There's some scenes in episode one that start at a very strange

1199
00:53:37.260 --> 00:53:39.900
point where they've clearly cut the beginning of the scene for

1200
00:53:39.900 --> 00:53:40.139
time.

1201
00:53:40.260 --> 00:53:43.739
This is going to be a problem that sort of plagues the show from

1202
00:53:43.739 --> 00:53:44.340
here on in.

1203
00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:45.539
But I do.

1204
00:53:45.599 --> 00:53:46.199
Sorry, sorry.

1205
00:53:46.260 --> 00:53:50.280
And then those elongated scenes of those little cars going chuggy

1206
00:53:50.280 --> 00:53:51.179
chuggy, chuggy.

1207
00:53:51.239 --> 00:53:55.019
The battery in my Lego train goes faster.

1208
00:53:55.079 --> 00:53:57.780
So you get, you do get, but that doesn't work.

1209
00:53:57.840 --> 00:54:02.639
That discon disconsolate. elongation of time and then truncation.

1210
00:54:02.699 --> 00:54:06.539
I suppose it heightens the drama, but not in a way that's actually

1211
00:54:06.539 --> 00:54:10.920
affords an interesting or pleasurable, a more pleasurable viewing

1212
00:54:10.920 --> 00:54:11.460
experience.

1213
00:54:11.519 --> 00:54:13.739
What would Mary Whitehouse have said?

1214
00:54:13.800 --> 00:54:15.840
She'd moved on by then.

1215
00:54:15.900 --> 00:54:17.699
I think she has. other things to annoy you.

1216
00:54:17.760 --> 00:54:20.039
How dare you have someone with my hair as the villain.

1217
00:54:20.099 --> 00:54:21.900
Do love the hair.

1218
00:54:22.679 --> 00:54:26.400
Oh, my puzzling creative choices care for McCulloch, that's

1219
00:54:26.400 --> 00:54:27.059
obvious.

1220
00:54:27.300 --> 00:54:33.840
Damn, you know, I like to attract my creative.

1221
00:54:33.840 --> 00:54:35.820
I know you all say nice things about remembrance.

1222
00:54:35.820 --> 00:54:37.860
Really?

1223
00:54:37.980 --> 00:54:40.320
I mean, you know, you can clip the cat's claws and you've got the

1224
00:54:40.320 --> 00:54:41.159
same sound coming out.

1225
00:54:41.219 --> 00:54:43.139
It's like we can do it for you right now.

1226
00:54:43.619 --> 00:54:45.360
Yeah, and no.

1227
00:54:45.420 --> 00:54:46.139
No.

1228
00:54:46.199 --> 00:54:47.400
You know, not at all.

1229
00:54:47.460 --> 00:54:48.119
It's funny.

1230
00:54:48.179 --> 00:54:50.519
I was just about to say, yeah, this is such a strong season that

1231
00:54:50.519 --> 00:54:53.519
we can only come up with abstracts for Jenny Laird awards and not

1232
00:54:53.519 --> 00:54:53.880
people.

1233
00:54:53.880 --> 00:54:57.659
And then, yeah, people, but no, I entirely get where you're coming

1234
00:54:57.659 --> 00:54:58.320
from.

1235
00:54:58.500 --> 00:55:00.000
JNT's.

1236
00:55:00.059 --> 00:55:03.360
JNT sloppy slipshods, self- loathing.

1237
00:55:03.420 --> 00:55:08.400
No, he was never guilty of self-loathing, but his whole lachrymose

1238
00:55:08.400 --> 00:55:11.940
inability to be enthusiastic about the show in any way other than

1239
00:55:11.940 --> 00:55:15.000
just perfunctory because, you know, he was going, that's why this

1240
00:55:15.000 --> 00:55:18.480
show is so good now because he's not taking over like he used to.

1241
00:55:18.539 --> 00:55:23.460
We're not seeing his inner world. projected and it wasn't all

1242
00:55:23.460 --> 00:55:24.360
Saber's fault.

1243
00:55:24.420 --> 00:55:27.599
Now that he sits back and does exactly what he does brilliantly

1244
00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:29.340
which is making the money work.

1245
00:55:29.639 --> 00:55:34.019
Yeah, he does a lovely job and leaves it to the young people.

1246
00:55:34.079 --> 00:55:34.980
Yes.

1247
00:55:34.980 --> 00:55:37.860
Yes, Nathan and I are looking at you, Brenton.

1248
00:55:37.920 --> 00:55:38.340
Yes.

1249
00:55:38.400 --> 00:55:39.719
Leave it to the young people.

1250
00:55:39.840 --> 00:55:44.519
Because, again, he's enough of a professional, even with, you know

1251
00:55:44.519 --> 00:55:47.699
the big ego that he has, to realise that things need to change, to

1252
00:55:47.699 --> 00:55:48.659
keep alive.

1253
00:55:49.380 --> 00:55:54.300
Well, you know, I have to wonder with no disrespect intended to

1254
00:55:54.300 --> 00:55:56.699
Beth Willis or Piers Winger or Caro Skinner.

1255
00:55:56.760 --> 00:56:01.260
However, how Brian Minchin may have had the same effect on Stephen

1256
00:56:01.260 --> 00:56:05.159
Moffat that Andrew Cartmel had on JNT.

1257
00:56:05.519 --> 00:56:10.260
And as I say, that is not any reflection on the previous executive

1258
00:56:10.260 --> 00:56:12.719
producers, certainly not comparing them to the effect John Nathan

1259
00:56:12.719 --> 00:56:16.980
Turner and Eric Saywood had on each other, but I see a difference

1260
00:56:16.980 --> 00:56:18.599
in quality of a similar manner.

1261
00:56:18.659 --> 00:56:20.099
I still like earth shock.

1262
00:56:20.159 --> 00:56:23.460
I loved it at the time. boy, it was extraordinary.

1263
00:56:23.519 --> 00:56:25.320
It had some great moments, really good timing.

1264
00:56:25.380 --> 00:56:27.059
I like the dinner speech.

1265
00:56:27.119 --> 00:56:28.800
Yeah, look I agree.

1266
00:56:28.860 --> 00:56:32.639
It was just the decision that we now had to remake that every year

1267
00:56:32.639 --> 00:56:35.039
a couple of times a year from here on in.

1268
00:56:35.099 --> 00:56:36.900
That was the thing that I found...

1269
00:56:36.900 --> 00:56:38.219
We get projectionable.

1270
00:56:38.280 --> 00:56:40.920
Wait till we get to a battlefield and discover what happened to

1271
00:56:40.920 --> 00:56:41.880
Bell Reed's girlfriend.

1272
00:56:41.940 --> 00:56:42.960
Yes.

1273
00:56:43.019 --> 00:56:43.500
Yes.

1274
00:56:43.619 --> 00:56:46.139
Um, so pics of the week.

1275
00:56:46.199 --> 00:56:48.780
Mine is, well, actually I've got 2 because I meant to mention

1276
00:56:48.780 --> 00:56:50.219
earlier in the episode, but I didn't.

1277
00:56:50.280 --> 00:56:54.059
When the greatest show in the galaxy were shooting is when KLF

1278
00:56:54.059 --> 00:56:58.440
under the name The Time Lords released Dr. in the TARDIS.

1279
00:56:58.500 --> 00:56:59.579
Oh, dear.

1280
00:56:59.579 --> 00:57:01.559
Really well.

1281
00:57:01.619 --> 00:57:02.280
It got to number one.

1282
00:57:02.820 --> 00:57:04.079
And it's, I like it.

1283
00:57:04.139 --> 00:57:07.559
It's really good And also, in itself, it was a remix, of course, of

1284
00:57:07.559 --> 00:57:12.000
Gary Glitter song, whose name I momentarily forget.

1285
00:57:12.059 --> 00:57:16.260
But it was then remixed by a DJ under the name Dean Gray, mashed

1286
00:57:16.260 --> 00:57:19.800
up with holiday by Green Day, and quotations from George W.

1287
00:57:19.800 --> 00:57:20.099
Bush.

1288
00:57:20.159 --> 00:57:21.300
So it opens with George W.

1289
00:57:21.300 --> 00:57:23.340
Bush having a conversation with the Daleks.

1290
00:57:23.400 --> 00:57:25.800
And it's...

1291
00:57:25.800 --> 00:57:26.760
Dolores to his mates.

1292
00:57:26.820 --> 00:57:27.599
Yes, that's right.

1293
00:57:27.599 --> 00:57:29.579
It's a really great piece.

1294
00:57:29.639 --> 00:57:32.340
It is available for free, so we'll put it up in the show notes.

1295
00:57:32.400 --> 00:57:35.039
So that's Doctor Who on holiday, Nathan, for the show notes.

1296
00:57:35.159 --> 00:57:35.760
Brilliant.

1297
00:57:35.820 --> 00:57:37.980
My holiday for the dog?

1298
00:57:38.039 --> 00:57:39.780
My other recommendation.

1299
00:57:39.960 --> 00:57:43.320
We've recommended other Doctor Who podcasts before...

1300
00:57:43.320 --> 00:57:44.159
Grudgingly.

1301
00:57:47.219 --> 00:57:52.380
But this is not a Doctor Who podcast, and it's not by anyone I

1302
00:57:52.380 --> 00:57:55.739
know personally, but Doctor Who, of course, big part of my

1303
00:57:55.739 --> 00:57:56.099
childhood.

1304
00:57:56.159 --> 00:57:59.159
Another big part of my childhood that I've recently revisited and

1305
00:57:59.159 --> 00:58:01.800
rewatched all of it, is X-Men the animated series.

1306
00:58:01.860 --> 00:58:06.599
The X-Men films came off the back of X-Men the animated series.

1307
00:58:06.659 --> 00:58:10.800
It ran for 5 seasons, about 76 episodes.

1308
00:58:10.860 --> 00:58:17.340
And now there's a podcast by 2 American fans called the X-Men, the

1309
00:58:17.340 --> 00:58:22.619
animated series podcast, or X-Men Taz podcast, and it's kind of

1310
00:58:22.619 --> 00:58:24.360
it's a bit like flight through entirety.

1311
00:58:24.420 --> 00:58:27.239
It's less about, you know, Richard, you talk a lot about the

1312
00:58:27.239 --> 00:58:30.420
textual antecedents and we talk a lot about the social stuff, but

1313
00:58:30.420 --> 00:58:33.719
it's more about these 2 people's recollections of what their lives

1314
00:58:33.719 --> 00:58:36.900
were like then, but also looking back on the plots as an adult

1315
00:58:36.900 --> 00:58:40.800
talking about, because of course, X-Men started off and in the 90s

1316
00:58:40.800 --> 00:58:43.739
were still an allegory for racism and other forms of

1317
00:58:43.739 --> 00:58:45.179
discrimination.

1318
00:58:45.239 --> 00:58:49.440
The cartoon series does briefly cover the legacy virus, which was

1319
00:58:49.440 --> 00:58:51.780
Marvel Comics take on HIV.

1320
00:58:51.840 --> 00:58:54.840
Yeah, it's a Saturday morning cartoon, so it doesn't go into it

1321
00:58:54.840 --> 00:58:57.719
with great depth, but there are moments of great depth within the

1322
00:58:57.719 --> 00:58:58.019
show.

1323
00:58:58.019 --> 00:59:02.940
And Willie and Sonia, who are the hosts, are really fun and

1324
00:59:02.940 --> 00:59:07.019
charismatic, and they really love the show, and that makes it

1325
00:59:07.019 --> 00:59:07.920
really great to listen to.

1326
00:59:07.980 --> 00:59:09.239
So those are my recommendations.

1327
00:59:09.300 --> 00:59:13.500
Dr. in the Tartars by the Time Lords and X-Men Taz podcast by

1328
00:59:13.500 --> 00:59:14.460
Willie and Sonya.

1329
00:59:14.519 --> 00:59:18.840
Well, I looked back through the show notes of some old episodes

1330
00:59:18.840 --> 00:59:22.019
and I don't think I've recommended this before, but if I have, I

1331
00:59:22.019 --> 00:59:22.500
don't care.

1332
00:59:22.559 --> 00:59:27.480
During the week, we had the news that Robert Hardy had died.

1333
00:59:27.539 --> 00:59:28.079
Yeah.

1334
00:59:28.079 --> 00:59:30.659
We almost owned him.

1335
00:59:30.780 --> 00:59:32.159
We almost owned him.

1336
00:59:32.219 --> 00:59:35.519
He was like a father-in-law. to the show.

1337
00:59:35.579 --> 00:59:39.900
Was that around the time of Pete or because there was talk of him

1338
00:59:39.900 --> 00:59:42.239
being considered for the role of the doctor?

1339
00:59:42.239 --> 00:59:43.260
Oh, okay.

1340
00:59:43.320 --> 00:59:45.300
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about at the same peak time.

1341
00:59:45.360 --> 00:59:48.059
I remember at the time, I wasn't, it wasn't talking to you about

1342
00:59:48.059 --> 00:59:48.239
it.

1343
00:59:48.300 --> 00:59:52.199
It was one of our other fan, you know, dawn timing fan folk

1344
00:59:52.199 --> 00:59:53.579
probably Kerry Doherty.

1345
00:59:53.639 --> 00:59:56.099
And I remember her saying, he would have been a much better doctor

1346
00:59:56.099 --> 00:59:57.000
who's the right age.

1347
00:59:57.059 --> 01:00:00.420
We really loathed, received wisdom, loathed the idea of a young

1348
01:00:00.420 --> 01:00:01.980
doctor back then.

1349
01:00:02.039 --> 01:00:03.900
Let's see how Jody goes.

1350
01:00:03.960 --> 01:00:07.739
I think, well, we should all learn from our past errors.

1351
01:00:07.920 --> 01:00:13.320
Yeah, so Robert Hardy reads, and you can get this on Audible, reads

1352
01:00:13.320 --> 01:00:17.699
Evelyn Waugh's novel, Vile Bodies, which I adore one of my

1353
01:00:17.699 --> 01:00:19.260
favourite books ever.

1354
01:00:19.320 --> 01:00:21.480
And Robert Hardy does voices.

1355
01:00:21.539 --> 01:00:25.980
He brings just the kind of languid sneering disinterest to the

1356
01:00:25.980 --> 01:00:30.239
narrator's role that really characterises the narrator in that

1357
01:00:30.239 --> 01:00:30.420
book.

1358
01:00:30.420 --> 01:00:31.920
Much like this podcast.

1359
01:00:31.980 --> 01:00:36.360
He's so funny. unbelievably hilarious.

1360
01:00:36.420 --> 01:00:38.579
It's just a virtuoso performance.

1361
01:00:38.639 --> 01:00:40.679
Yeah, he does great vocal range stuff too.

1362
01:00:40.739 --> 01:00:43.440
So he does voices for the characters and stuff.

1363
01:00:43.500 --> 01:00:48.239
So it becomes not so much a novel, as a script for this incredible

1364
01:00:48.239 --> 01:00:49.260
one-man performance.

1365
01:00:49.679 --> 01:00:52.019
It's really, really good.

1366
01:00:52.079 --> 01:00:56.400
So, Vile Bodies, by Evelyn Warre, red by Robert Hardy.

1367
01:00:56.460 --> 01:00:57.960
How beautiful.

1368
01:00:58.019 --> 01:01:00.000
Is it my go, is it?

1369
01:01:00.119 --> 01:01:02.159
I recommend you fruit to all of you?

1370
01:01:03.119 --> 01:01:06.780
Not so much creamed corn, but yes, you definitely all need more

1371
01:01:06.780 --> 01:01:07.440
roughage.

1372
01:01:07.500 --> 01:01:09.179
That's my ready.

1373
01:01:09.300 --> 01:01:12.960
This is just a big fruity, you know, cornucopia or a melange of

1374
01:01:12.960 --> 01:01:14.460
loveliness this season, isn't there?

1375
01:01:14.519 --> 01:01:16.679
There's lots of things I disliked about it at the time.

1376
01:01:16.679 --> 01:01:21.420
And there are sort of some more ones that I dislike now, but on

1377
01:01:21.420 --> 01:01:25.199
the whole, I just, it feels like the sun has come out.

1378
01:01:25.320 --> 01:01:30.000
At the time when, at the time, when this came on, Clanet had kind

1379
01:01:30.000 --> 01:01:33.000
of gone, and if you listen to, or you listen to, you're living

1380
01:01:33.000 --> 01:01:36.059
with your parents, and they, they would probably have the BBC or

1381
01:01:36.059 --> 01:01:40.679
ABC radio, Enya was being played bloody constantly with the sailor

1382
01:01:40.679 --> 01:01:42.059
bleeping sailor away.

1383
01:01:42.119 --> 01:01:47.099
But it was really appropriate for the feel of this season and just

1384
01:01:47.099 --> 01:01:50.159
the sense of exuberance and joy and we'll cast off somewhere where

1385
01:01:50.159 --> 01:01:54.119
we can't, we haven't been before, and just hope for the best.

1386
01:01:54.179 --> 01:01:56.579
And that's what creativity is.

1387
01:01:56.639 --> 01:01:58.920
You're not meant to know how it's going to work out before you

1388
01:01:58.920 --> 01:02:03.179
start the film or the writing or the design or the drawing or the

1389
01:02:03.179 --> 01:02:04.860
knitting or whatever it is you're going to make.

1390
01:02:04.920 --> 01:02:06.480
You're not meant to know the end.

1391
01:02:06.539 --> 01:02:08.760
It's an it's playing, it's exploration.

1392
01:02:08.820 --> 01:02:11.039
This season does that for me so well.

1393
01:02:11.099 --> 01:02:13.500
So my go to is sit down and watch this bloody thing and not just

1394
01:02:13.500 --> 01:02:13.980
listen to us.

1395
01:02:14.039 --> 01:02:16.079
Because we know what you like.

1396
01:02:16.079 --> 01:02:17.340
Go on, watch it.

1397
01:02:17.400 --> 01:02:18.900
And eat fruit.

1398
01:02:35.219 --> 01:02:40.079
Well, dear listener, we're taking off from the planet Segen X, and

1399
01:02:40.079 --> 01:02:43.860
uh, we're having a little break, but we will be back in about a

1400
01:02:43.860 --> 01:02:47.099
month or so with our commentary on Enlightenment.

1401
01:02:47.159 --> 01:02:47.639
Do come back for that.

1402
01:02:47.699 --> 01:02:51.360
In the meantime, check the show notes where you can vote on your

1403
01:02:51.360 --> 01:02:53.940
choice for our Colin Baker commentary.

1404
01:02:54.000 --> 01:02:57.360
Your choices are Mark of the Rani, Revelation of the Daleks, the

1405
01:02:57.360 --> 01:03:00.659
Mysterious Planet, or Terror of the Verboids, and we're hoping to

1406
01:03:00.659 --> 01:03:02.820
put that out at the end of season 26.

1407
01:03:03.059 --> 01:03:07.260
You can find that on our website at flight through entirety.sexy

1408
01:03:07.260 --> 01:03:10.440
flight through entirety on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at FTE

1409
01:03:10.440 --> 01:03:11.460
podcasts on Twitter.

1410
01:03:11.519 --> 01:03:13.260
Over on Bondfinger.

1411
01:03:13.320 --> 01:03:17.880
We are in the midst of the Pierce Brosnan era, and you can find

1412
01:03:17.880 --> 01:03:21.179
our commentaries on his films on Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on

1413
01:03:21.179 --> 01:03:24.420
Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at Bondfingercast on Twitter.

1414
01:03:24.480 --> 01:03:28.559
Or just do what we do and rewatch the Roger Moore solos.

1415
01:03:28.619 --> 01:03:30.360
Yes, before those videos existed.

1416
01:03:30.420 --> 01:03:35.219
Roger was doing solo commentaries on his own films, on the Blu-ray

1417
01:03:35.219 --> 01:03:36.480
DPD set.

1418
01:03:36.539 --> 01:03:39.000
So I did that with the spy who loved me last night and had a

1419
01:03:39.000 --> 01:03:42.059
rollicking fun with my corgis, just like the Queen.

1420
01:03:42.179 --> 01:03:45.599
You know, I kind of wish that they got Roger Moore to comment on

1421
01:03:45.599 --> 01:03:46.739
everyone else's bond.

1422
01:03:46.800 --> 01:03:48.599
Can you imagine?

1423
01:03:48.659 --> 01:03:51.119
Imagine what it'd be like with Pierce.

1424
01:03:51.420 --> 01:03:52.980
Awful.

1425
01:03:53.039 --> 01:03:53.699
Oh, please.

1426
01:03:53.760 --> 01:03:55.139
Oh gosh.

1427
01:03:55.199 --> 01:03:57.840
This is the tragic thing about time moving on.

1428
01:03:57.900 --> 01:04:00.719
We always think of the best stuff to do afterwards.

1429
01:04:01.739 --> 01:04:06.179
Until next time, may you find none of your adventures overrated.

1430
01:04:06.239 --> 01:04:07.860
Thank you very much for listening in Good Night.

1431
01:04:07.920 --> 01:04:09.300
Good night. chewing.

1432
01:04:27.360 --> 01:04:30.659
That was Flight Through Entirety with Nathan Bottomley, Brendan

1433
01:04:30.659 --> 01:04:31.860
Jones, and Richard Stone.

1434
01:04:31.920 --> 01:04:34.739
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, logo designed by Anthony

1435
01:04:34.739 --> 01:04:35.340
Wells.

1436
01:04:35.400 --> 01:04:39.659
This episode, Jazz Hands, was recorded on August 6th, 2017.

1437
01:04:39.840 --> 01:04:42.360
The next episode will be released in October.

1438
01:04:45.960 --> 01:04:49.139
We've just been signed on to the Psychic Circus.

1439
01:04:49.199 --> 01:04:52.260
Look out for Richard's impression of Marlena Dietrich, Brendan's

1440
01:04:52.260 --> 01:04:55.440
one-man improvised retelling of the legend of Zelda, and Nathan's

1441
01:04:55.440 --> 01:04:58.440
three-hour lecture on the origins of the word, tire soul.

1442
01:05:01.500 --> 01:05:03.300
What's that book?

1443
01:05:03.360 --> 01:05:06.659
Um, the complete, one of the complete history volumes.

1444
01:05:06.719 --> 01:05:07.500
Okay.

1445
01:05:07.559 --> 01:05:09.780
It spans the season.

1446
01:05:09.840 --> 01:05:10.800
Almost.

1447
01:05:10.860 --> 01:05:13.139
So, yes, yeah.

1448
01:05:13.199 --> 01:05:16.199
So yeah, they don't they don't really pay attention to seasons, but

1449
01:05:16.199 --> 01:05:19.559
when you get to a new season, they do have like an overview.

1450
01:05:19.619 --> 01:05:20.219
Oh, okay.

1451
01:05:20.219 --> 01:05:23.340
There's photos there that I've never seen.

1452
01:05:23.400 --> 01:05:25.559
Oh yeah, there's some good rare photos in here.

1453
01:05:26.400 --> 01:05:30.059
So yeah, there's the contents, like Silver Nemesis, Greater Show.

1454
01:05:30.119 --> 01:05:31.619
1989 Battlefield.

1455
01:05:31.679 --> 01:05:32.219
Right.

1456
01:05:34.679 --> 01:05:37.019
They are beautiful, but I just don't want more things.

1457
01:05:37.079 --> 01:05:39.599
No, I understand that. room for more things.

1458
01:05:39.659 --> 01:05:42.960
And like the same company is planning another 5 part works.

1459
01:05:43.019 --> 01:05:48.119
Like a target part work, a target audio readings, part work, a big

1460
01:05:48.119 --> 01:05:52.860
finish part work, the comics part work, and something else.

1461
01:05:52.920 --> 01:05:54.000
I can't remember.

1462
01:05:54.059 --> 01:05:57.539
Oh, like the Doctor Who fact files, like the Star Trek ones, where

1463
01:05:57.539 --> 01:06:01.679
it was all pull apart and you sort things, which fans love doing.

1464
01:06:01.800 --> 01:06:05.880
I think friend of the podcast, Peter Griffiths worked on the Star

1465
01:06:05.880 --> 01:06:06.539
Trek one.

1466
01:06:06.599 --> 01:06:09.420
I follow the old editor, Robert.

1467
01:06:09.480 --> 01:06:11.460
He's not at all uncomely.

1468
01:06:11.519 --> 01:06:12.239
What's this?

1469
01:06:12.239 --> 01:06:15.780
Oh, these are great.

1470
01:06:15.840 --> 01:06:16.320
There we are.

1471
01:06:16.380 --> 01:06:17.760
That's the page I want.

1472
01:06:18.179 --> 01:06:19.800
Are we good?

1473
01:06:19.860 --> 01:06:20.760
Cool.

1474
01:06:20.820 --> 01:06:21.059
Okay.

1475
01:06:21.119 --> 01:06:24.719
Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to flight through

1476
01:06:24.719 --> 01:06:25.320
entirety.

1477
01:06:25.380 --> 01:06:28.079
The only Doctor Who commentary podcast who are just as good as we

1478
01:06:28.079 --> 01:06:28.619
used to be.

1479
01:06:28.679 --> 01:06:30.059
Thank you, Adrian Mole.

1480
01:06:30.119 --> 01:06:31.980
Commentary podcast.

1481
01:06:32.039 --> 01:06:33.239
Did I say commentary?

1482
01:06:33.300 --> 01:06:33.719
Yeah.

1483
01:06:33.780 --> 01:06:34.679
Okay.