WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 13:56:47 1 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:57.780 Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast whose theories appal you. 2 00:00:57.840 --> 00:00:58.920 Our heresies outrage you. 3 00:00:58.979 --> 00:01:01.679 We never answer your letters and we're not even wearing ties. 4 00:01:01.740 --> 00:01:02.280 I'm Brendan. 5 00:01:02.340 --> 00:01:07.799 I'm Nathan I'm a pre-Raphaelite spangly chandelier for this one in a very high pitched voice. 6 00:01:08.340 --> 00:01:11.159 And we're off to see some animals. 7 00:01:11.219 --> 00:01:12.060 It's ghost light. 8 00:01:27.180 --> 00:01:56.579 So, uh, much like last season, uh, this season is a bit wibbly wobbly in production order, so despite the fact that this is the 2nd story broadcast, it was originally intended to be broadcast 3rd and was in fact the last Doctor Who story shot at getting this piece of trivia out of the way, the scene where Mrs. Pritchard and Gwendolen are frozen into stone was the last scene shot for the classic series. which you might say is metaphoric. 9 00:01:58.620 --> 00:02:02.159 This is really, really amazing, this story. 10 00:02:02.219 --> 00:02:04.319 I just think it's incredible. 11 00:02:04.379 --> 00:02:12.659 And I have to say that despite, you know, a lot of fanboy protestation, it doesn't actually really make very much sense. 12 00:02:12.719 --> 00:02:17.340 Well, yes, it's a very split fan reception, isn't it? 13 00:02:17.400 --> 00:02:18.900 and indeed viewers reception. 14 00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:31.080 It's one of those things you can't watch as a Doctor Who story alone, and those fans who we were young at the time, of course, but the folk who do come to it youthfully and in the middle of a Doctor Who series, expect Doctor Who. 15 00:02:31.139 --> 00:02:31.560 It not. 16 00:02:31.620 --> 00:02:36.240 It's a student's piece on everything he's ever watched and ever written that he loved. 17 00:02:36.300 --> 00:02:39.120 It's the most literary Doctor Who story I've ever seen. 18 00:02:39.180 --> 00:02:43.740 And goodness, that means we'll have a lot to say about it. 19 00:02:43.800 --> 00:02:44.639 Yes. 20 00:02:44.699 --> 00:02:55.199 So in theory, the idea is that this house is built on top of a stone space ship that's been here for ever. 21 00:02:55.259 --> 00:02:56.699 Yes, or it's just slipped back. 22 00:02:56.759 --> 00:02:58.259 The novel suggests, yes. 23 00:02:58.319 --> 00:03:01.500 But anyway, there is the suggestion that was built on the foundations of wrongness. 24 00:03:01.620 --> 00:03:07.740 Yeah, and out of time, out of sync, out of evolutionary phase and out of God's domain. 25 00:03:07.800 --> 00:03:39.120 Yeah, and so light is this sort of powerful entity that is cataloguing everything in the world and the way that works is you have a survey agent, which is released into the world, and presumably recapitulates all of evolution until it reaches kind of like the highest rung on the evolutionary ladder, which is obviously the white landed Victorian gentleman, whereas the control creature stays behind as a control control. 26 00:03:39.180 --> 00:03:41.879 But of course, none of that really makes any sense at all. 27 00:03:41.939 --> 00:03:46.620 And it doesn't actually, you know, become clear that that's what's happening. 28 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:48.599 There is some attempt to explain it in dialogue. 29 00:03:48.659 --> 00:03:52.860 In the end, it makes sense because you've realised that everyone's evolved and everything's changed. 30 00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:54.599 People's thinking changes. 31 00:03:54.659 --> 00:04:04.379 Light also manifests as the dominant life form, which is a cockney barrel bloke who has appeared in EastEnders and the Blackadder. 32 00:04:04.500 --> 00:04:05.460 Yes, yes. 33 00:04:05.460 --> 00:04:08.580 He's quite terrifying in the blackadder on a sort of big horse. 34 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:09.419 Yes. 35 00:04:09.479 --> 00:04:13.680 He was also Brian Blessed's wingman in Flash Gordon. 36 00:04:13.740 --> 00:04:14.939 Oh God, yes. 37 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:16.560 Pun intended. 38 00:04:16.620 --> 00:04:17.040 Yes. 39 00:04:17.519 --> 00:04:19.860 God, I adore this story. 40 00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:25.139 And I adore it because of its depth and complexity and because of its rough edges. 41 00:04:25.199 --> 00:04:37.139 In a way, the lack of fully developed explanation and the fact that we have to fill in some blanks ourselves is kind of lovecraftian. 42 00:04:37.199 --> 00:04:45.060 Whatever light is, and, you know, the doctor never says he's a Zog monster from the planet Zog in the style system, Zogos. 43 00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:50.279 They never talk about what species he is, which would be a very Star Trek thing to do. 44 00:04:50.459 --> 00:04:54.480 They never establish exactly what kind of being he is. 45 00:04:54.540 --> 00:05:05.759 He is just light and he is knowledge and he has the power to influence evolution and we as mere mortals just have to kind of accept that that's going to happen. 46 00:05:05.879 --> 00:05:17.939 That brilliantly macabre scene where he's confused and calls the maid over and the next time we see her, she's dead and he's got her arm and he says, I wanted to understand how it worked. 47 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:20.339 So I dismantled it. 48 00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:26.639 It's this concept that an intelligence so far ahead of our own will not view us as intelligent life. 49 00:05:26.819 --> 00:05:34.139 In a sense, I would be disappointed if we got a proper explanation and I literally don't care that it doesn't make any sense. 50 00:05:34.199 --> 00:05:42.540 Yeah, and if it was trek, it'd be tied back to the mutants because they blow the same or we'd know that light was actually just another part of this survey. 51 00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:49.860 And that in fact, the manufacturers or the, you know, the controlling intelligence is some other species entirely. 52 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:52.019 Yeah, you can have a lot of fun guessing who that is. 53 00:05:52.079 --> 00:05:58.379 Absolutely doesn't matter because what we have is a story that is unbelievably, beautifully choreographed and directed. 54 00:05:58.439 --> 00:06:02.399 It looks like a merchant ivory film of the time for TV. 55 00:06:02.459 --> 00:06:05.459 Yeah, yeah, merchant ivory film on videotape. 56 00:06:05.519 --> 00:06:14.040 But when the doctor and ace appear in the 1st scene, they materialise in the upper observatory. 57 00:06:14.100 --> 00:06:16.560 A doll's house. 58 00:06:16.620 --> 00:06:20.279 I love this is a boy that it felt like you were playing Doctor Who. 59 00:06:20.339 --> 00:06:23.579 Well, she picks up this and it's sort of thrown away. 60 00:06:23.639 --> 00:06:31.740 I think it's emphasised probably more in the novelisation, but she picks up a toy, which is clockwork, which has figures spinning around inside it, like an ice ring. 61 00:06:31.860 --> 00:06:35.819 And in fact, the whole house is like that, particularly for the 1st episode. 62 00:06:35.879 --> 00:06:40.319 So, you know, when it strikes six, these doors open and all of these people come out. 63 00:06:40.379 --> 00:06:46.079 It's all just sort of incredibly beautifully choreographed and the music is absolutely extraordinary. 64 00:06:46.980 --> 00:06:50.100 So it's all atmosphere and set pieces. 65 00:06:50.100 --> 00:06:51.779 And that's fine by me. 66 00:06:51.899 --> 00:06:59.160 And keys right into the reviewers very recent memories of BBC television period dramas, which they had done so well. 67 00:06:59.160 --> 00:07:06.300 And this was done as an homage to that because just with Mrs. Thatcher's government of the last few years, that was no longer done in house. 68 00:07:06.360 --> 00:07:10.560 There were all these costumes and all these experts who was lying fallow trying to look busy. 69 00:07:10.620 --> 00:07:20.279 And yeah, so everyone who worked on this went to town as a last nod to what had once been a really good factory working thing for the bee. 70 00:07:20.339 --> 00:07:25.740 They only ever did them in these, they were doing them at the time, but with American money, usually or German money. 71 00:07:25.800 --> 00:07:27.060 It's the same way they did downton. 72 00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:27.360 So. 73 00:07:27.540 --> 00:07:30.839 Yeah, well, this, I mean, this is... 74 00:07:30.899 --> 00:07:33.000 Well, I mean, that's the thing that kills Doctor Who, isn't it? 75 00:07:33.060 --> 00:07:39.180 The move to outside production, the fact that the BBC is no longer made. 76 00:07:39.240 --> 00:07:40.980 Wales killed Doctor Who. 77 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:45.839 But, you know, the fact that BBC's not making drama in house anymore. 78 00:07:45.899 --> 00:08:04.620 And those of us who are alive at the time will remember, you know, the endless stories of the different production companies that might be going to take it over as the years passed after, you know, Ghostlight was made, and it just never ends up being picked up and falls between the cracks, I think. 79 00:08:04.680 --> 00:08:06.839 So it doesn't survive that transition. 80 00:08:06.899 --> 00:08:16.379 You know, the Victorian era is something that the BBC has done incredibly well in the past and it's something that Doctor Who has done very well. 81 00:08:16.439 --> 00:08:20.819 I mean, for all of the things that you can say about talons of Wang Chiang. 82 00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:23.459 It looks spectacular. 83 00:08:23.579 --> 00:08:39.720 And a lot of the Hingecliff era, looks so incredibly good because it's set in the late 19th century or early 20th century, using the sort of sets and costumes and things that the BBC could do fantastically well in its sling. 84 00:08:39.779 --> 00:08:41.399 Suited Tom very well. 85 00:08:41.460 --> 00:08:42.779 Yeah, yeah. 86 00:08:42.840 --> 00:08:45.480 But, I mean, here it just looks amazing. 87 00:08:45.539 --> 00:08:50.759 And the sets are lavish and detailed and kind of terrifying as well. 88 00:08:51.240 --> 00:08:56.519 At the risk of losing friend of the podcast, Chris McDonald for a couple of minutes, I'd like to talk about colonialism. 89 00:08:57.299 --> 00:09:06.840 So, of course, we have read for the Sven Cooper, who is a colonial explorer who's been to the deepest, darkest heart of Africa, and what have you? 90 00:09:06.960 --> 00:09:14.399 James Finnamore Cooper's last of the Mohicans, and also, and also every Whitey in a linen suit that's ever appeared. 91 00:09:14.460 --> 00:09:16.559 Yeah, but on film, yeah. 92 00:09:16.620 --> 00:09:25.139 Yeah, but by accident or design, played by Michael Cochran, who last appeared in Doctor Who, playing the brother of a colonial explorer. 93 00:09:25.980 --> 00:09:29.700 Black Hawk, the worst Doctor Who story ever made. 94 00:09:30.419 --> 00:09:38.220 But the whole story, one of the things it's about is colonialism, because light is a colonialist as well. 95 00:09:38.279 --> 00:09:42.179 He expects everything to adhere to his idea of civilisation. 96 00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:49.019 Yes, it's almost as if he'd want a survey done of why people would even want to change. 97 00:09:49.080 --> 00:09:51.840 What could possibly go wrong with that concept? 98 00:09:51.899 --> 00:09:52.679 right. 99 00:09:52.740 --> 00:09:56.700 And, you know, he doesn't he doesn't view the people in the house as people. 100 00:09:56.759 --> 00:09:57.720 He takes them apart. 101 00:09:57.779 --> 00:10:02.580 He regresses them to soup, but puts them in uniform. 102 00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:03.600 Puts them in uniform. 103 00:10:03.659 --> 00:10:05.100 At the end, of course. 104 00:10:05.159 --> 00:10:20.820 When Redfers rejects colonialism to take control, who is not yet quite refined to a refined event, Josiah actually appeals to him, you know, on the grounds of colonialism. 105 00:10:20.820 --> 00:10:22.019 It's actually a country. 106 00:10:22.080 --> 00:10:23.220 Yes, gone. 107 00:10:23.220 --> 00:10:27.179 And Redver's response is, oh, forget Redver's. 108 00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:28.320 Forget colonialism. 109 00:10:28.379 --> 00:10:30.000 He's only ever talking about himself. 110 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:44.159 That's a really good point because George Monant Shaw, in his writing of Pygmalion, where the whole, I'm a ladylike now, et cetera. boulderized for my fair lady, but he was a prime socialist and vegetarian, a nudist. 111 00:10:44.159 --> 00:10:47.940 Whenever he got to the fans... inclement weather. 112 00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:49.980 It wasn't mad. 113 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:58.259 But yeah, which was the whole thing about, as you're saying, about just tilting the social order and just so he never... 114 00:10:58.320 --> 00:10:59.279 Well, maybe in St. 115 00:10:59.279 --> 00:11:04.500 Joan, he did actually, but I was going to say, he didn't really propose radical change or any outcome. 116 00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:14.340 He just said tilted slightly and let the light hit the edges and then see exactly what it is we're looking at and we're performing and you'll find that we're all dancing around on a glass dish. 117 00:11:14.399 --> 00:11:17.279 We're all dancing on a petri edish and we're much smaller than we think we are. 118 00:11:17.399 --> 00:11:21.659 The antecedents to this aren't merely visual or rhetorical. 119 00:11:21.720 --> 00:11:26.460 They're actually really cultural and literary of the 20th century and the changes that have come on. 120 00:11:26.580 --> 00:11:31.860 I think the reason a lot of fans, especially at the time, loathed and despised this. 121 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:38.580 And friends like cough Dan Hogarth. you know, one of the finest minds in fandom, I know, absolutely detests this. 122 00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:41.940 On every single level, he says a complete waste, blah, blah. 123 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:42.840 All the rest of it. 124 00:11:42.899 --> 00:11:46.919 But I think that's the point because they're so disappointed because it's not really Doctor Who. 125 00:11:46.980 --> 00:11:55.019 It's one of the things, it's, for me, it's reached the coin in the slot, apotheosis of what Doctor Who's supposed to do and that does everything else. 126 00:11:55.080 --> 00:12:03.899 Yeah, well, I mean, I think maybe it's nearest antecedent is the mind robber, which also sort of plunders Victorian literature. 127 00:12:03.960 --> 00:12:06.000 Especially Lewis Carroll as does this. 128 00:12:06.059 --> 00:12:06.779 Yeah, yeah. 129 00:12:06.840 --> 00:12:09.240 Alice, she gets called Alice. 130 00:12:09.240 --> 00:12:09.899 Cross dresses. 131 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:13.860 The lift is explicitly called the rabbit hole by the doctor. 132 00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:15.600 They go underground. 133 00:12:15.659 --> 00:12:20.100 They're dressed animals underground, just like there are animals in Wonderland. 134 00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:23.159 I mean, it is very explicitly taking from that. 135 00:12:23.220 --> 00:12:27.299 There's that whole Victorian idea of evolution. 136 00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:29.460 I mean, evolution predates Darwin. 137 00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:32.340 Darwin really only discovers the mechanism for it. 138 00:12:32.460 --> 00:12:42.600 But the idea of evolution as a ladder as something that you go up and you reach a pinnacle, which is not what evolution is or how it works at all. 139 00:12:42.659 --> 00:12:48.659 And, you know, all sorts of eugenics and sort of racialist ideas being thrown into the mix. 140 00:12:48.720 --> 00:13:00.419 So Josiah, the survey agent gets released and he becomes the most evolved thing in the in Earth's biosphere, which is a landed Victorian gentleman. 141 00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:02.279 You know, that's what he's evolved into. 142 00:13:02.340 --> 00:13:09.779 And that's once controls released, she evolves into a ladylike, into a Victorian lady as well. 143 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:13.019 So it's not a story that is scientific. 144 00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:17.100 It's not a story that has, you know, pteroreptils in it or anything like that. 145 00:13:17.159 --> 00:13:25.379 It's a story that takes place in a kind of weird amalgam of sort of Victorian obsessions and Victorian literature. 146 00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:31.620 It happens in a kind of land of fiction that some localised within this sort of one strange house. 147 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:40.500 Much like Britain at the time. and the way that it had fictionalised its own history, certainly its own Victorian values, as Mrs. Thatcher was fond of saying. 148 00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:48.539 And we'll have a lot more to say about Lewis Carroll coming up for Fenrick because there's even more of him in that. as in as in this. 149 00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:51.480 It wasn't merely his writings on... 150 00:13:51.480 --> 00:13:53.940 He was really writing about maths, wasn't he? 151 00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:55.320 Great deal. an order. 152 00:13:55.379 --> 00:13:57.240 But he was also a social critic. 153 00:13:57.299 --> 00:14:01.080 So when he talked about the topsy-turvy world and the confusion that was going on. 154 00:14:01.139 --> 00:14:04.980 He was really talking about the stuff that Blake and that we've talked about before. 155 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:07.139 I'm not putting us up with William Blake. 156 00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:09.600 But hey, if you want to make that connection, we shan't complain. 157 00:14:09.659 --> 00:14:22.500 Is that is that nothing was actually function. under a capitalist industrialist empire, that people were falling through the cracks in the stone temples that we've built to Gog and Magog. 158 00:14:22.620 --> 00:14:28.200 Light is actually way back to a Tigris Euphrates' deity. 159 00:14:28.259 --> 00:14:30.000 Yeah, he's an angel. 160 00:14:30.059 --> 00:14:37.200 Remember that there's an angel with a flaming sword that prevents Adam and Eve from getting back into the Garden of Eden. 161 00:14:37.259 --> 00:14:38.639 And that's what light is. 162 00:14:38.700 --> 00:14:46.379 And one of the reasons that light opposes evolution is because he's from a mythology that contradicts it. 163 00:14:46.379 --> 00:14:53.639 And that mythology is, of course, represented by the Reverend Matthews, whose objections, whose... 164 00:14:53.700 --> 00:14:57.899 Is it not, he says at the end of every sentence, so you know he's Victorian. 165 00:14:57.960 --> 00:15:06.480 But Reverend Matthews prefigures light in the same way that Red for Sven Cooper does as well. 166 00:15:06.539 --> 00:15:18.179 So he objects to change an evolution in the 1st episode, and then light comes along, who's an angel from Matthew's own Christian mythology, who also objects to evolution as well. 167 00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:27.659 And it's very telling that light comes along after Matthews has been sent away to Java and fulfilled his plot purpose. 168 00:15:27.720 --> 00:15:35.220 Now, we've talked before about characters and Doctor Who stories who are just killed off when they no longer serve the plot, but at least in the case of Reverend Matthews. 169 00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:47.039 His death serves the plot by showing us what Josiah is capable of, but it also fulfils the plot because he is out evolved by someone who doesn't want to evolve. 170 00:15:47.100 --> 00:15:54.120 Yeah, you know, light is so much better at doing what the Reverend Matthews does because the Reverend Matthews is just reading scripture. 171 00:15:54.179 --> 00:15:55.559 Light is scripture. 172 00:15:55.799 --> 00:16:01.019 I think also, like the deaths in this are so hilarious. 173 00:16:01.080 --> 00:16:10.500 Like the death of Matthews, like when he raises his hands into shot and they're covered with like their gorilla hands all of a sudden. 174 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:12.600 It sort of shocking and hilarious. 175 00:16:12.659 --> 00:16:17.340 We've already had the, that's the way to the zoo song. 176 00:16:17.580 --> 00:16:25.620 We should mention for the casual listener that that was not written for the program, but actually discovered at the 11th hour in Book of Victorian songs. 177 00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:26.940 Isn't it perfect? 178 00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:47.820 And as detailed in antecedent and worshipful and ancient law of splendid chaps that was sung in their Sylvester McCoy episode by John Richards and Petra Elliott to Ben Mackenzie, who had to scream at them to stop because for God's sake, it's about death. 179 00:16:49.019 --> 00:16:54.299 You know, it's about passing into the afterlife and being stuffed. 180 00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:01.799 Oh, it was a Pestiche on Darwin at the time or on evolutionary theories. 181 00:17:01.860 --> 00:17:12.839 This is one of those parlour ditties that it sits perfectly, and I'm really glad that Catherine Schlesinger is allowed to sit and she doesn't play the piano in the end, someone else, and did it in 2 takes. 182 00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:14.519 No, it's wonderful. 183 00:17:14.579 --> 00:17:17.339 And I love how it goes on in the background of the following scene. 184 00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:21.059 Well, it has something like 10 verses in the actual... 185 00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:21.480 Yeah, yeah. 186 00:17:21.539 --> 00:17:23.940 And we're about to sing them all. 187 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:29.099 No, I couldn't possibly replicate the legend that is John Richards. friend of the podcast. 188 00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:33.779 But on the DVD, there is actually raw, the full-time... 189 00:17:33.779 --> 00:17:34.319 Raw footage. 190 00:17:34.380 --> 00:17:34.859 Yes. 191 00:17:34.859 --> 00:17:44.279 There's the full take of Catherine with 2 A's singing that song and she sort of gets to the end and I did that rather well. 192 00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:47.640 They're all having so much fun. 193 00:17:47.700 --> 00:17:49.559 There's Rocky Horror sighted in this. 194 00:17:49.619 --> 00:17:50.339 That dinner party. 195 00:17:50.460 --> 00:17:52.380 Is the rocky horror picture show? 196 00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:53.640 Oh, it is too. 197 00:17:53.700 --> 00:17:54.480 It really is. 198 00:17:54.539 --> 00:17:57.480 Where they're serving meatloaf is the... 199 00:17:57.480 --> 00:17:58.980 Oh, it's missing. 200 00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:02.099 And the Douglas Adams, like the hitchhunkers... 201 00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:03.599 Douglas Adams is canon now. 202 00:18:03.660 --> 00:18:04.380 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 203 00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:05.940 Because what does the doctor say? 204 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:09.119 Who said that Earthmen never invite their ancestors around for dinner? 205 00:18:09.180 --> 00:18:11.339 That either means... 206 00:18:11.460 --> 00:18:13.440 Ooh, figure of 8 on its side. 207 00:18:13.500 --> 00:18:22.259 That either means that that show that Douglas Adams was editing was Professor X or, oh, where are we going to end up with this? 208 00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:28.500 But yeah, yeah, I'd like to think that the hitchhiker universe is part of the... 209 00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:30.900 No, no, it's later established in the Christmas invasion. 210 00:18:30.900 --> 00:18:32.759 Arthur Dent's a lovely man. 211 00:18:32.819 --> 00:18:39.299 And of course, Doctor Who and the Cricket Man is coming out next year as transcribed by James Goss. 212 00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:46.079 So it's part of the Douglas Adams increasingly inaccurately named unnovelized trilogy. 213 00:18:46.859 --> 00:18:48.539 Fantastic. 214 00:18:49.259 --> 00:18:53.400 This story is so very rich. 215 00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:59.400 And it also continues the trend we saw last year of emphasising the role of the companion. 216 00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:02.160 And how good is Sophie in this? 217 00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:04.380 You can see this is... 218 00:19:04.380 --> 00:19:06.000 Is this her favourite that she did? 219 00:19:06.059 --> 00:19:07.859 No, I think she likes Fenrick, doesn't she? 220 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:14.460 Yeah, I think she does say Fenrick's her favourite, but she does get that brilliant speech in F1. 221 00:19:14.579 --> 00:19:16.799 Yeah, well both of them are good in that, I think. 222 00:19:16.859 --> 00:19:17.819 Yeah, yeah. 223 00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:30.660 Sylvester, we've talked about before that one of his driving forces of the role was the melancholy of the man who has outlived his friends and that really comes across when he's talking about burnt toast and bus shelters. 224 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:40.500 You're kind of looking at him going, you don't actually care about those things, but you won't say what you do care about, whereas Ace is just staring off into the middle distance and telling us exactly. 225 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:51.240 It's all, it's all on the surface for her now, whereas the doctor's still hiding and that feeling she ends with of, I didn't care anymore. 226 00:19:51.539 --> 00:19:59.279 I mean, before this podcast we were discussing, of course, the awful survey we're being put to at the moment. 227 00:19:59.460 --> 00:20:06.240 And sometimes it does feel you get so angry that you don't care anymore, but you don't not care anymore. 228 00:20:06.299 --> 00:20:14.819 What's happening is your mind is protecting you by saying, you've got to go on fighting and for that, I have to remove the emotion from somewhere. 229 00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:18.539 So when Ace says, I didn't care anymore and the doctor says, I think you cared a lot. 230 00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:19.319 That's the whole point. 231 00:20:19.380 --> 00:20:26.880 She cared so much. that she was able to put her feelings aside to take action to destroy the evil. 232 00:20:26.940 --> 00:20:37.859 You know, there is something that is a critique of the doctor in this and it's a bit subtle, I think, but the doctor lists the things apart from burnt toast and bus stations. 233 00:20:37.980 --> 00:20:45.000 He says there's unrequited love and tyranny and cruelty and aces responses to right. 234 00:20:45.059 --> 00:20:48.180 You know, yeah, there's cruelty and you're doing it to me. 235 00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:50.880 Yeah, because it's an initiative test. 236 00:20:50.940 --> 00:20:51.420 Remember that? 237 00:20:51.480 --> 00:21:03.599 Which is a very strange thing, which isn't properly played up, but clearly the idea is that this week, a little bit like how Missy is going to be the doctor, you know, in world enough in time. 238 00:21:03.660 --> 00:21:06.539 This week, Ace has to work out what the place is. 239 00:21:06.599 --> 00:21:24.960 And so the doctors brought her here and, you know, she's drawing conclusions and stuff and he's sort of patronising her and the whole while he knows that this is the house that terrified her as a child and he's deliberately brought her here and is forcing her to find out for herself that that's what that is. 240 00:21:25.019 --> 00:21:30.359 And I always think that the new adventures conception of the doctor is this sort of manipulator. 241 00:21:30.420 --> 00:21:35.940 I think I actually think that that's reading a little bit too much depth into this era. 242 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:46.559 But here, I think there is a sort of, it's underplayed, but there is a sort of an intention here that the doctor is being rather callous in the way that he exposes Ace to this. 243 00:21:46.619 --> 00:21:50.519 And, you know, she achieves some sort of catharsis, I think, as a result. 244 00:21:50.579 --> 00:21:59.099 Yeah, and the important thing to note is getting back to that dinner scene, the doctor doesn't know the full story before he brings her here. 245 00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:01.319 He doesn't know that she burnt down the house. 246 00:22:01.380 --> 00:22:05.279 And when he finds that out, he is genuinely sad that he's done it. 247 00:22:05.339 --> 00:22:10.619 He has a lot of faith, not just in her, but in, I think, in circumstances to resolve. 248 00:22:10.740 --> 00:22:13.500 The man is essentially an optimist or he wouldn't keep going. 249 00:22:13.559 --> 00:22:19.619 So he does that thing, that full, he's the holy fool, if you like, call the tarot card zero. 250 00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:28.019 He's the one that jumps in and trusts his people around him and trusts that people will, when shown a better way, perhaps choose them. 251 00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:30.779 He does always give an alternative, doesn't he? 252 00:22:30.839 --> 00:22:31.980 He does always give them a chance. 253 00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:43.380 It gets more callow and constraint and I think colder in the new series, which is a literal fan interpretation through the new adventures of the last full television doctor. 254 00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:48.480 I think we, our current doctors are much harder than our classic series doctors actually were. 255 00:22:48.539 --> 00:22:53.279 And also, in terms of the new series, a lot more inconsistent. 256 00:22:53.339 --> 00:23:02.700 Like, if you look at early, early on in David Tennant's tenure, the Christmas invasion, you know, he drops the Sicorax leader off the side of the ship saying no 2nd chances. 257 00:23:02.759 --> 00:23:06.359 Meanwhile, Cassandra poisons a whole hospital full of people in it. 258 00:23:06.420 --> 00:23:12.180 Okay, yeah, I'll take you back and give you closure. 2 weeks later with brother Lassar in school reunion. 259 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:14.460 He's just like, no, I'm going to put you down. 260 00:23:14.460 --> 00:23:16.920 And then I'm going to use my robot dog to blow you up. 261 00:23:16.980 --> 00:23:18.420 It's like, what are you doing? 262 00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:24.180 And that's because of the virgin new adventures, reinterpretation, I think, of Silv's doctor. 263 00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:33.960 But he's actually, I feel much more, let's just go and have a look. something's a bit odd here, but I trust everything and more importantly, everyone to do their best and it will turn out. 264 00:23:34.019 --> 00:23:36.420 It is foolhardy. 265 00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:39.720 But I do believe he works from acts of faith. 266 00:23:39.779 --> 00:23:41.039 Yeah, absolutely. 267 00:23:41.099 --> 00:23:43.799 And we are sounding a bit songs of praise on a Sunday. 268 00:23:43.859 --> 00:23:48.720 For a good reason, because Silv himself goes through life that way. 269 00:23:48.779 --> 00:23:56.640 And when he talks about his childhood and those fantastic issues of Doctor Who monthly, well, all magazine as it's now called for you young people. 270 00:23:56.880 --> 00:24:10.140 Yeah, the last one he did was really superb when he's talked many times about how he works in faith in his life and just, you know, give people the benefit and hopefully they'll come good because that's really all you can do. 271 00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:15.420 That's actually one of the best lessons I took from this series in this doctor. 272 00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:17.160 That's why he is actually one of my favourite doctors. 273 00:24:17.220 --> 00:24:24.420 Yeah, because here, even though he is being a bit cruel and a bit callous, he's not setting out to hurt. 274 00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:25.319 Is it callousness though? 275 00:24:25.380 --> 00:24:28.319 I don't think testing, because we all get tested. 276 00:24:28.380 --> 00:24:35.640 Is testing a callous act, or is it merely you have these tools, we expect you to evolve into who you're meant to be? 277 00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:42.960 I think that not giving her the choice, you know, that just springing this on her. does choose to travel with him. 278 00:24:43.019 --> 00:24:45.779 Yeah, I know, but springing this on her is thoughtless. 279 00:24:46.140 --> 00:24:49.319 And of course, it turns out for the best because this is Doctor Who. 280 00:24:49.380 --> 00:24:52.319 But certainly she interprets it as cruelty in that speech. 281 00:24:52.380 --> 00:24:56.220 But the show doesn't dwell on that because that's not what it's about. 282 00:24:56.279 --> 00:25:04.740 I mean, this is more characterisation and more driven by the companion's background and stuff than we've ever been used to, but it's still not the new series. 283 00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:10.440 It's still not, you know, quite as soapy and character driven as the new series becomes. 284 00:25:10.500 --> 00:25:12.299 No, it's entirely different from that. 285 00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:30.119 The metaphor of the testing is actually of the greater narrative, and is that we are all being tested to see how we can live with each other and respect each other's humanity in a society that is now structured on growth for its own sake, and change for its own sake, and improvement, and all of this simply means capital improvement. 286 00:25:30.180 --> 00:25:39.000 It doesn't mean improvement of character, sensibility or intent, which is why Lady Pritchard and Gwendolen had to be frozen in stone because that's their... 287 00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:41.460 Oh, we never used karma in the old series. 288 00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:52.440 So that's a misreading of contemporary styles, but that is their evolution based on how they have conducted themselves into this point. 289 00:25:52.559 --> 00:26:09.599 This is really very much an, you can see, if Mark Platt didn't go to Anglican Sunday school under the Reverend Nicholas Parsons, I'd like to know who he was under because this really does feel like Sunday school parables in the best possible ladybird illustrated book way. 290 00:26:09.660 --> 00:26:16.259 If you treat people well, you may not have a good life, but your intentions will propel you honourably, and that will be your companion. 291 00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:19.440 Certainly, Lady Pritchard and Gwendolen are... 292 00:26:19.500 --> 00:26:20.039 Are buggers? 293 00:26:20.099 --> 00:26:21.539 Well, they're judged by the doctor. 294 00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:26.819 Like the doctor says, you know, I could have forgiven her sending all those pyjama if she hadn't enjoyed it so much. 295 00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:33.480 And there's actually, she's, it's the closest we get to the tenant's coldness, isn't it, to the 10th doctor's coldness. 296 00:26:33.539 --> 00:26:36.359 Well, and he's really very, like he doesn't dwell on that. 297 00:26:36.420 --> 00:26:38.339 It's just a very clear judgement. 298 00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:43.079 And Gwendolen is sexualised in a really... 299 00:26:43.140 --> 00:26:54.180 Well, but in a really sort of creepy way, her enjoyment of sending the Reverend Matthews to Java. you know, like she's kind of straddling Josiah at that point. 300 00:26:54.240 --> 00:27:03.480 And there is a very kind of definite sexual element to the environment and early sexualisation is always hand in glove, isn't it? 301 00:27:03.539 --> 00:27:12.000 Yeah, not to mention the queerness of Ace and Gwendolyn running around in... like a music hall trollop. like a music hall trollop. 302 00:27:12.059 --> 00:27:13.920 That's also very Lewis Carr or whatever. 303 00:27:13.980 --> 00:27:20.880 But the reveal of that is kind of sexualised as well because they're behind the screen and say, oh, we can't go out like this. 304 00:27:22.500 --> 00:27:28.380 A lot of fan thought had gone into what was going on behind the screens, matron, for that one. 305 00:27:28.440 --> 00:27:33.839 And, you know, Gwendolen and Ace fighting on the bed while controlling egging them on. 306 00:27:33.900 --> 00:27:38.039 But of course, with control, it's like, new gameplay. control go next. 307 00:27:38.099 --> 00:27:40.140 God, she's brilliant. 308 00:27:40.200 --> 00:27:42.000 I love Sharon Deus's control. 309 00:27:42.059 --> 00:27:43.559 She's wonderful isn't she? 310 00:27:43.619 --> 00:27:45.240 She's terribly good. 311 00:27:45.299 --> 00:27:47.819 Can I pivot? 312 00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:55.140 There is one thing in the storytelling, which I think is really unusual, and that is that incredible way. 313 00:27:55.259 --> 00:28:01.559 You know, Doctor Who isn't very good at telling us when it's night and day and things just sort of go on and on. 314 00:28:01.619 --> 00:28:09.000 You know, like the doctor arrives on Scaro and leaves 6 episodes later, but who knows how many days he's been there or whatever. 315 00:28:09.059 --> 00:28:12.599 Here, there's a night that happens. 316 00:28:12.660 --> 00:28:15.000 Like, things happen at night. 317 00:28:15.059 --> 00:28:35.099 And so Ace falls asleep and while she's been asleep all night, suddenly we wake up and the doctor's been doing all of this stuff in the background and it is that sort of muddling through with faith that you mentioned Richard because he's sort of said all these things in motion without really knowing what's going to happen or how it's going to turn out. 318 00:28:35.160 --> 00:28:46.500 It really wrongfoots you, I think, because you're used to in the narrative following the doctor and seeing what the doctor does, but wireless is asleep, we don't get to see what's going on as well. 319 00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:53.519 So she wakes up and we suddenly see that the whole plot has moved on while we haven't been sort of privy to her. 320 00:28:53.579 --> 00:28:56.400 Which is something that the new adventures will pick up on. 321 00:28:56.460 --> 00:29:00.000 And I have, I did take a bit of a break from my blog, but it's back now. 322 00:29:00.059 --> 00:29:11.460 And, you know, most recently I've read Cat's Cradle, Warhead by Andrew Cartmel, which is it's lousy with the doctor running around in the background while other things happen. 323 00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:17.220 But something Cartmel does well is experimenting with story structure. 324 00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:19.140 And that's an example here as well. 325 00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:22.920 Mark Platt had been trying to write for the series since 1975. 326 00:29:23.339 --> 00:29:31.680 The 1st story he submitted to Robert Holmes was called Fires of the Star Mind, and it was a story set on Gallifrey. 327 00:29:31.740 --> 00:29:33.720 Wow, it sounds terrible. 328 00:29:33.779 --> 00:29:35.400 It sounds totally fan. 329 00:29:35.460 --> 00:29:38.880 Now, this is this is pre-deadly assassin. 330 00:29:38.940 --> 00:29:39.420 Yes. 331 00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:51.539 But he came to the conclusion that Time Lords store their data on beams of light, and a creature made of light uses this to invade Gallifre. actually really sexy. 332 00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:57.960 And also kind of pretty on top of the pops, glam pop rock at the time. 333 00:29:58.019 --> 00:30:03.480 We had been to Galifre, and it did look like a game show. didn't it? 334 00:30:03.539 --> 00:30:05.400 We could have had Nicholas Parsons again. 335 00:30:05.460 --> 00:30:06.839 But here's the thing. 336 00:30:06.839 --> 00:30:07.920 Sale of the century, go on. 337 00:30:07.980 --> 00:30:13.200 Robert Holmes rejects that on the grounds that it doesn't have like a tangible villain, which was of course... 338 00:30:13.259 --> 00:30:18.240 It's a big thing that Hinchcliffe and Holmes always did is, you know, you always had a villain. 339 00:30:18.299 --> 00:30:21.000 You had your Su Tech, you had your Harrison Chase, you had your master. 340 00:30:21.059 --> 00:30:27.119 But the next year they do deadly assassin with information stored as holograms. 341 00:30:27.779 --> 00:30:31.319 The year after that, Graham Williams... 342 00:30:31.319 --> 00:30:35.220 Graham Williams does aliens who invade Gallifre on thought waves. 343 00:30:35.819 --> 00:30:37.920 So they don't... 344 00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:39.000 What bugger? 345 00:30:39.059 --> 00:30:39.839 Yeah, exactly. 346 00:30:39.900 --> 00:30:44.460 So then for season 23. expire to Shepherd's Bush. 347 00:30:44.519 --> 00:30:47.400 For season 23, television centre. 348 00:30:47.460 --> 00:30:54.839 Mark Platt submitted Cat's Cradle, which became the novel Cat's Cradle, Time is Crucible, which God is hard to get through. 349 00:30:54.900 --> 00:30:57.720 We've all read them, but no one can remember a single thing, can we? 350 00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:00.599 Has it got a giant slug in it? 351 00:31:00.660 --> 00:31:01.319 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 352 00:31:01.380 --> 00:31:02.940 Dr. Doolittle, yeah. 353 00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:07.740 Eric Saywood turned it down for reasons of prohibitive cost. 354 00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:08.279 Oh, okay. 355 00:31:08.279 --> 00:31:14.880 And it's like, yeah, it would have been really hard to make, and the compromises that would have to be done to it to get it on screen would have robbed it of its power. 356 00:31:14.940 --> 00:31:19.259 So this story, it started life as lung barrow. 357 00:31:19.380 --> 00:31:23.759 So the house was going to be the doctor's ancestral house, et cetera, et cetera. 358 00:31:23.819 --> 00:31:30.900 And John Nathan Turner and Andrew Cartmel liked it, but said, unfortunately, we're going in this direction where we don't want to reveal stuff about the doctor. 359 00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:32.519 Let's keep the haunted house. 360 00:31:32.579 --> 00:31:35.099 But why don't we make it about Ace? 361 00:31:35.099 --> 00:31:38.099 And that's when it became Beastieary and eventually Ghost Bise. 362 00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:39.900 And of course, set in the 70s. 363 00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:42.839 As a sort of Sweeney minder kind of thing. 364 00:31:42.900 --> 00:31:44.759 But that's what Platt wanted. 365 00:31:44.819 --> 00:31:47.279 And it was, oh, no, no, it's too recent history. 366 00:31:47.339 --> 00:31:48.059 It's too recent. 367 00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:49.380 Now it won't feel historical. 368 00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:53.279 I'm really glad they did that because you've got all the BBC frock department. 369 00:31:53.339 --> 00:32:01.319 And yeah, I mean, having it set in the 70s as the house that Ace will go back to in 10 years doesn't feel like something exciting. 370 00:32:01.380 --> 00:32:04.140 It would have been more sapphire. steel. 371 00:32:04.200 --> 00:32:04.740 Yeah. 372 00:32:04.740 --> 00:32:05.039 Yeah. 373 00:32:05.099 --> 00:32:09.900 But it's like, you know, having it as the house that she will destroy in a 100 years time. 374 00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:13.859 And somehow for me, and I'm not exactly sure why. 375 00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:15.240 Maybe you guys have got an opinion on this. 376 00:32:15.299 --> 00:32:28.680 A lot of time travel stories will look at it and go, like Rose does in The Unquiet Dead, but I know that the earth wasn't invaded by zombies in 1869. from 1918, 1988. 377 00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:30.180 James Selwood would often say. 378 00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:37.140 No one brings it up in this story that, you know, history can't change because it's already been burned down in 1883. 379 00:32:37.319 --> 00:32:40.079 Ace, of course, says no control, don't burn the house down. 380 00:32:40.140 --> 00:32:40.740 That's what I did. 381 00:32:40.799 --> 00:32:45.000 But it never occurs to me watching this that, well, hold on. 382 00:32:45.059 --> 00:32:46.319 I know everything's going to be all right. 383 00:32:46.500 --> 00:32:48.960 They somehow managed to avoid that. 384 00:32:49.019 --> 00:32:51.720 Well, it's Doctor Who and you know everything's going to be all right. 385 00:32:51.779 --> 00:32:54.059 You know, the world's not going to be destroyed. 386 00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:54.960 The doctor will save it. 387 00:32:55.019 --> 00:32:57.960 I mean, I always thought that sort of was a rather pointless thing. 388 00:32:58.019 --> 00:32:58.859 You know what I mean? 389 00:32:58.920 --> 00:33:01.619 Yes, of course, the doctor's going to defeat Zue Tech, for God's sake. 390 00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:02.400 Have you been watching the show? 391 00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:05.700 Luckily, she is back with Australia. 392 00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:08.160 After 2 weeks lost in the wilderness. 393 00:33:08.220 --> 00:33:09.839 We might put something up on the blog about that. 394 00:33:09.900 --> 00:33:11.940 It's an extraordinary story. 395 00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:17.339 Yeah, I hadn't I hadn't alluded to that, Richard, because I didn't know if you wanted people to realise that. 396 00:33:17.400 --> 00:33:19.559 Yeah, she was lost out in Mount Druitt. 397 00:33:19.619 --> 00:33:25.740 She climbed Mount Druitt for the, for the, yes, we've all had an epic adventure, but she's back here with us now and being quiet. 398 00:33:25.799 --> 00:33:27.180 But yeah, I'm sure we'll hear from her soon. 399 00:33:27.240 --> 00:33:29.519 We're going to give her our own mic, can't we? 400 00:33:29.579 --> 00:33:31.559 Yeah, silent villains, I think. 401 00:33:31.619 --> 00:33:41.279 I agree that these, this is, I would suggest Nathan's definition of high concept, and I feel it's successful. 402 00:33:41.339 --> 00:33:52.079 The thing that really grabs me with this, we haven't talked much about the story because like just everybody knows it, but I would really just like to know if people feel it's successful in its own terms. 403 00:33:52.559 --> 00:34:04.440 I had to, I have to admit, I did have to watch it more than once when it 1st came out and we had VHS, but mostly because that you need a United Nations simultaneous translator for whenever Sylvester McCoy opened his mouth. 404 00:34:04.500 --> 00:34:06.420 Oh, I think that you encarted. 405 00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:09.480 The music is loud for middle-aged young people. 406 00:34:09.539 --> 00:34:10.320 It is. 407 00:34:10.440 --> 00:34:14.639 And and Marquez has gone on record as saying I didn't write it that loud. 408 00:34:14.699 --> 00:34:17.099 Alan Waring pumped it up in the dub. 409 00:34:17.159 --> 00:34:18.480 Alan Waring, yes. 410 00:34:18.539 --> 00:34:19.679 He does like things his own way. 411 00:34:19.739 --> 00:34:26.519 And in fact, Mr. Waring. and Mr. McCoy did have differences of artistic opinion during this shoot, didn't they? 412 00:34:26.579 --> 00:34:30.780 Although wearing, I think, is the best director of the McCoy era. 413 00:34:30.900 --> 00:34:32.760 I think he gets it very tight. 414 00:34:32.820 --> 00:34:34.800 I like actually, I really like Nicholas Mallett. 415 00:34:34.980 --> 00:34:37.139 But yeah, he does. 416 00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:43.559 But I think the conflict actually helps because the conflict within the story within any narrative will actually be reflected in people's behaviour. 417 00:34:43.619 --> 00:34:49.980 You look at any project or any job you're working on, we assume the mantle, the emotional mantle of whatever we're doing. 418 00:34:50.039 --> 00:34:51.960 That's what art history is. 419 00:34:52.019 --> 00:34:53.460 Yeah, owning it. 420 00:34:53.579 --> 00:34:55.800 I do think it works. 421 00:34:55.860 --> 00:34:58.019 I think it's extremely accomplished. 422 00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:08.280 And I, I think, you know, part of the reason that it's difficult to understand is a, the plot isn't like hugely well thought out. 423 00:35:08.340 --> 00:35:11.039 Is it just that it has a circular plot? 424 00:35:11.099 --> 00:35:13.980 It works better as a novel. 425 00:35:14.039 --> 00:35:15.960 It works better as a piece of writing. 426 00:35:16.019 --> 00:35:21.119 And like all good writing, it's constantly alluding to other works. to enrich the text. 427 00:35:21.179 --> 00:35:23.820 Yeah, I think it's too much a page that's filmed. 428 00:35:23.880 --> 00:35:30.719 Well, I think you need to read it more like the mind robber than the Zygon, which is also entirely literary-based. 429 00:35:30.780 --> 00:35:39.960 Yeah, you know, the idea that these are aliens that are interacting in a certain way and, you know, that this is straight science fiction, that's just nonsense. 430 00:35:40.019 --> 00:35:43.559 It's all kind of weird and metaphorical and cultural and stuff. 431 00:35:43.619 --> 00:35:49.260 I mean, you know, evolution works in this story, the way that Victorian gentlemen thought it worked. 432 00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:52.199 It doesn't work the way it actually works. 433 00:35:52.440 --> 00:36:11.099 The husks in the basement are there to kind of do the episode one cliffhanger, kind of fulfil the insistence that they needed to be a monster in it, and also to kind of reference the dressed animals of Alice in Wonderland. 434 00:36:11.159 --> 00:36:12.239 But they don't make sense. 435 00:36:12.300 --> 00:36:16.260 I mean, control doesn't leave a series of husks behind her as she evolves. 436 00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:19.380 You know, so none of that stuff matters. 437 00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:29.880 You know, that background, you know, which is there's a sort of thrown away exchange about, you know, control is me and the survey is just sire, which I think happens in episode two. 438 00:36:29.940 --> 00:36:32.219 And Nimrod is in the book of Genesis. 439 00:36:32.280 --> 00:36:35.280 Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's a mighty hunter. 440 00:36:35.340 --> 00:36:36.719 But it doesn't matter. 441 00:36:36.780 --> 00:36:37.739 Like none of that matters. 442 00:36:37.800 --> 00:36:48.420 What matters is how incredibly beautiful it looks, what the music is like, the way it's choreographed, the way that it moves effortlessly from scene to scene. 443 00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:58.500 It suffers slightly from the cart more problem, which is scripts that run too long and then need to be chopped up. to reach, you know, a sensible running time. 444 00:36:58.559 --> 00:37:05.699 But anyone who's watching this, expecting it to be like claws of axos or something is just reading it the wrong way. 445 00:37:05.820 --> 00:37:22.139 And I think it ends on such a powerful scene when Control Nimrod, Josiah and Redburz depart because they depart to go travelling to see the universe, not to control and restrict it. 446 00:37:22.199 --> 00:37:26.579 You know, they sort of say, we'll go visit other cultures, and we will do a survey. 447 00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:31.019 But the surveys in the sense of we'll look around and see what's out there. 448 00:37:31.079 --> 00:37:39.780 And Ace's speech, which we've spoken of before, and, you know, whether a white character saying white kids fire bomber is mawkish or not. 449 00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:44.519 But Ace kind of sees herself as postracial. 450 00:37:44.579 --> 00:37:50.760 She doesn't see any difference between herself and Manisha and cannot get inside the heads of people who do. 451 00:37:50.820 --> 00:37:53.460 And that's the message of the story. 452 00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:56.519 The message of the story is acceptance. 453 00:37:56.579 --> 00:38:07.380 Not tolerance, but acceptance, accepting of others who are different and not seeking to diminish or control them, but to go out and meet them. 454 00:38:07.980 --> 00:38:13.980 And control says to the doctor, you are not in our catalogue, nor will you ever be. 455 00:38:14.039 --> 00:38:27.900 Now, she has no pun intended, the control and the power to put him in the catalogue and to tell everyone that there's this traveller who's going to come around and mess your stuff up if you screw up. 456 00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:30.780 But instead, she's going out to see the universe now. 457 00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:31.980 She's not going out to rule it. 458 00:38:32.039 --> 00:38:35.460 She's not going out to take over planets like Josiah. 459 00:38:35.579 --> 00:38:42.360 So there's no need to warn people about the doctor because the people who are going out to explore the universe don't need to be warned about the doctor. 460 00:38:42.420 --> 00:38:43.619 Hello, travellers. 461 00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:44.460 Yeah, exactly. 462 00:38:44.519 --> 00:38:52.679 And even when they leave, you know, there's there's this sense of danger with the doctorate ace running away from takeoff and they're saying we need to get away from the blast. 463 00:38:52.739 --> 00:38:55.079 And the doctor's, no, they're already gone. 464 00:38:55.139 --> 00:38:58.739 Even their form of transport is peaceful and non-disruptive. 465 00:38:58.860 --> 00:38:59.639 It's a passing thaw. 466 00:38:59.639 --> 00:39:04.440 It's, you know, like they've, again, it mythologises them, doesn't it? 467 00:39:04.500 --> 00:39:06.119 They travel by the panel. 468 00:39:06.420 --> 00:39:07.980 Is it made of calcium silicate? 469 00:39:08.099 --> 00:39:09.719 Who cares? 470 00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:13.559 Great many fan listeners. 471 00:39:13.619 --> 00:39:15.360 This is most important thing. 472 00:39:15.420 --> 00:39:20.579 Well, I do think, you know, like it's a stone spaceship. grown from the earth, I'd like to believe. 473 00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:24.840 Well, I just sort of think it's like the fortress of solitude, but rockier and therefore cheaper. 474 00:39:24.900 --> 00:39:32.639 Without Marlon Brando's floating head in it. like doing a lovely melee pre-Raphaelite angel. 475 00:39:32.699 --> 00:39:36.300 I mean, look, there is any point on which we want to focus on this story. 476 00:39:36.360 --> 00:39:41.940 We can harp and soliloquy on how, on how resonant and radiant it is. 477 00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:49.320 But I think coming from the social aspect and as in the Carmel, and McCoy is. 478 00:39:49.380 --> 00:39:59.099 And I think JNT needs to be included, simply allowing them their heads, is that they're actually about social commentary, which living in at the time and being there. 479 00:39:59.159 --> 00:40:00.300 Of course, it's contemporary. 480 00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:00.840 You don't see it. 481 00:40:00.900 --> 00:40:10.199 But this is really very much a series that, as Kart more later admitted, that was doing exactly what we now have, the news quiz, or we now have. 482 00:40:10.260 --> 00:40:16.079 So many other programs that are satirical, that comment, but at the time, we had this. 483 00:40:16.139 --> 00:40:31.619 Well, remember that there are 2 stories this season with evolution or survival of the fittest as their theme, and it is also a theme, I guess, in Curse of Fenrick as well, given where the ancient hemivore comes from. 484 00:40:31.679 --> 00:41:00.719 And that idea of competition for resources was kind of part of the ideological justification for that sort of neoliberalism, that Thatcherite capitalism, where, you know, the idea of helping people and supporting the needy and using the taxes you collect in order to alleviate the suffering of people who are badly off were seen as a temptation, a distortion. 485 00:41:02.579 --> 00:41:04.139 Yeah, there's no such thing of society. 486 00:41:04.199 --> 00:41:10.019 There's individuals, you know, and there are so that's where that's coming from. 487 00:41:10.380 --> 00:41:21.360 And also the rigidity of light who wants everything categorised and whom the doctor condemns is lacking imagination. 488 00:41:21.420 --> 00:41:23.639 You know, he wants everything stopped. 489 00:41:23.699 --> 00:41:29.940 He wants it to be simple, he wants it to be able to be understood, but what survives, light doesn't survive. 490 00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:36.059 What survives is this incredibly bizarre, random assortment of people who end up in the spaceship. 491 00:41:36.119 --> 00:41:48.480 You know, like it's not like, and there's there's a Neanderthal and then there's this woman who used to be like a sort of scary monster in the basement and there's a sort of crazy... 492 00:41:48.539 --> 00:41:49.980 You're already at me. 493 00:41:50.039 --> 00:41:51.960 I live on the top floor. 494 00:41:52.019 --> 00:41:53.400 I've had my basement moments. 495 00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:55.440 Ladies and gents. 496 00:41:55.500 --> 00:42:03.119 We haven't talked much about Ian Hoggs, Josiah, or indeed, why Josiah is so reprehensible to Reverend Matthews. 497 00:42:03.179 --> 00:42:07.559 What is it that's so appalling about wanting to be a Victorian gentleman? 498 00:42:08.280 --> 00:42:13.800 Matthews does say, you know, you're a worse scoundrel than Darwin. 499 00:42:13.860 --> 00:42:28.019 And so it is the idea that, you know, evolution poses a threat to Matthew's sort of fairly rigid conceptions of what the world is like and how it got here. 500 00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:35.159 And I think that that's because he is, as I said before, kind of a precursor to light. 501 00:42:35.219 --> 00:42:52.860 And also, Josiah, Josiah is a bit interesting in his desire to be a Victorian gentleman, because it seems to all be about the physical form of the Victorian gentleman, because Matthews is there telling him how a Victorian gentleman should behave. 502 00:42:52.920 --> 00:43:11.579 When Matthews 1st sees Ace, of course, he reacts in horror to her off the shoulder, Blousson, whereas when Josiah sees Ace and Gwendolen in their men's suits, he's just like, oh, how interesting and inventive. 503 00:43:11.699 --> 00:43:19.380 Josiah, as a Victorian gentleman, is obsessed by novelty and newness because there are evolutions and changes. 504 00:43:19.380 --> 00:43:29.820 He comes up with this insane plan, which never is really explained why he thinks assassinating Queen Victoria will mean he's able to become king. 505 00:43:29.940 --> 00:43:34.679 But I think I think he's basically attempting a political coup. 506 00:43:34.739 --> 00:43:38.099 So he's going to kill the Queen and then take over as emperor rather than king. 507 00:43:38.159 --> 00:43:41.460 I actually think it's a little bit overstaffed, the script. 508 00:43:41.519 --> 00:43:43.619 I wonder why that's... 509 00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:51.239 I actually think this is Platt's take on the dichotomy within neoliberal thinking because to me, it's Nietzschean. 510 00:43:51.300 --> 00:44:03.480 There's a line in there that from beyond good and evil, that Josiah quotes, and I actually think this is the really interesting and unworking dichotomy within the politics of the time. 511 00:44:03.539 --> 00:44:05.039 You are meant to be a self-made man. 512 00:44:05.099 --> 00:44:08.880 You are meant to be jet propelled and self-propelled and wear a cape and be the greatest thing. 513 00:44:08.940 --> 00:44:11.940 But that, of course, is blasphemous because you must also be humble. 514 00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:22.559 So the structure itself crumbles within and of itself just as Josiah's skin crumbles, as his, as his carapace is moved from one to the other. 515 00:44:22.619 --> 00:44:32.400 The entire postulate of this, of this concept of the self-made man is itself counterdistinctive to what they're supposed to be. 516 00:44:32.699 --> 00:44:38.940 And so you've even got critiquing of the narrative itself within the narrative between Matthews. 517 00:44:39.059 --> 00:44:40.739 That's how bloody clever this really is. 518 00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:44.579 Because the Nietzschean concept of the Superman. 519 00:44:44.639 --> 00:44:50.639 Is it odds with the Victorian values of these, well, when you, because, and that's what it comes down to. 520 00:44:50.760 --> 00:45:01.500 You can't actually ally scripture or the base concept of the New Testament with the notion of overweening capitalism or huburistic intent for expansion. 521 00:45:01.619 --> 00:45:02.579 They don't work together. 522 00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:04.739 Yeah, I think it's true. 523 00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:18.480 And this story kind of shows that of any set doctrine or scripture or set of rules, if you try to live your life by them entirely, you won't live a life, you'll become like the Reverend Matthews. 524 00:45:18.659 --> 00:45:26.940 You'll become like Josiah, whereas you should be more like control or Redvers or Nimrod. 525 00:45:27.059 --> 00:45:30.599 Now, they're all a bit odd, and Redvers, literally. 526 00:45:30.659 --> 00:45:31.739 Yay, Soo Tech. 527 00:45:31.800 --> 00:45:39.059 Redvers, literally, you know, goes mad during the course of the story and finds himself again and by the end is still referring to himself in the 3rd person. 528 00:45:39.119 --> 00:45:48.119 So he might not quite be there, but he is his own person, as shown by the fact when he invites control to the dinner instead of desire. 529 00:45:48.179 --> 00:45:48.780 Yes. 530 00:45:48.780 --> 00:45:55.800 Despite the fact that he understands she may not be a lady, but she's a ladylike, and he likes her. 531 00:45:55.860 --> 00:46:00.420 So he doesn't even say at one point, I don't care for social niceties. 532 00:46:00.480 --> 00:46:06.300 You know, in a sort of wildian thing, like when Algernon says, I don't give a damn about Cecily's profile. 533 00:46:06.360 --> 00:46:08.400 I'm glad you mentioned world. 534 00:46:08.460 --> 00:46:10.380 Do you know who Mark Platt's parents actually are? 535 00:46:10.500 --> 00:46:12.420 Oscar Wild? 536 00:46:12.480 --> 00:46:13.920 Mr. and Mrs. Platt. 537 00:46:13.980 --> 00:46:14.880 And Lord Douglas. 538 00:46:14.940 --> 00:46:17.760 Hurst Platt and Gwendolyn Platt. 539 00:46:17.820 --> 00:46:19.320 Ernest and Gwendoline. 540 00:46:19.380 --> 00:46:23.039 I'm really not joking. 541 00:46:23.099 --> 00:46:24.179 That's lovely. 542 00:46:24.239 --> 00:46:35.639 Marcus said this and his obsession with Wild goes back to his preteen years because they were always making jokes of it and quoting earnest at each other. 543 00:46:35.699 --> 00:46:37.199 Have you got a cucumber, dear? 544 00:46:37.260 --> 00:46:38.460 No, I can't say that. 545 00:46:38.519 --> 00:46:40.619 Wasn't one in the markets for love nor money. 546 00:46:40.679 --> 00:46:41.639 This kind of thing. 547 00:46:41.699 --> 00:46:47.099 So he grew up in that really rebald, silly sort of house where there was all of that literary lampooning going on. 548 00:46:47.219 --> 00:46:48.960 Of course he's going to write something like this. 549 00:46:49.440 --> 00:46:54.480 And of course, he has gone on to write so much. 550 00:46:54.539 --> 00:46:55.920 All good stuff too. 551 00:46:55.980 --> 00:46:58.800 Cradle of the snake, spare parts. 552 00:46:58.860 --> 00:47:01.800 Whenever any of the Philip Hinchcliffe presents. 553 00:47:01.860 --> 00:47:05.940 It's mostly Mark Platt, who's adapting Philip Hinchcliffe's ideas. 554 00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:07.019 The good too. 555 00:47:07.079 --> 00:47:08.039 I like the 1st one. 556 00:47:08.159 --> 00:47:13.139 Point of entry, which was one of the most surprising sex doctor lost stories. 557 00:47:13.199 --> 00:47:15.480 Double entendres that we've had, yes. 558 00:47:15.480 --> 00:47:21.179 With Nicola Bryant pretending to be a British monarch in Jacobe in England. 559 00:47:21.239 --> 00:47:21.900 Wow. 560 00:47:21.900 --> 00:47:22.800 Which is actually quite good. 561 00:47:22.860 --> 00:47:23.400 She is. 562 00:47:23.460 --> 00:47:24.780 I mean, from a story... 563 00:47:24.780 --> 00:47:25.380 That's just the accent. 564 00:47:25.380 --> 00:47:27.480 From a story by Barbara Clegg. 565 00:47:27.539 --> 00:47:31.920 So the writers of Enlightenment and Ghostlight having a baby together at last. 566 00:47:32.880 --> 00:47:37.079 Just before we finish, I would like to mention the very last scene. 567 00:47:37.139 --> 00:47:42.599 So it's, of course, the doctor and ace discussing what will happen to the house in 100 years. 568 00:47:42.659 --> 00:47:45.300 And Ace says that she only has one regret. 569 00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:48.599 She wishes she'd blown it up rather than burnt it down. 570 00:47:48.659 --> 00:47:52.980 Now, in the script, the final line that doctor says was that's my girl. 571 00:47:53.639 --> 00:47:56.400 And it was actually Sylvester. 572 00:47:56.460 --> 00:47:59.099 And this goes back to what I was saying about acceptance. 573 00:47:59.159 --> 00:48:02.639 It was Sylvester who said, no, no, no, you know what? 574 00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:11.760 The doctor has been teaching Ace, and he's trying, and at that point, there was talk that Ace would go to the Time Lord Academy and that had been discussed with the actors. 575 00:48:11.820 --> 00:48:15.360 And the doctor was like, he, you know, she's his protégé. 576 00:48:15.420 --> 00:48:19.380 We need to show a way that he respects her on her own terms. 577 00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:20.699 He's not just trying to turn her into something. 578 00:48:20.760 --> 00:48:24.960 He's trying to train her, so she can take her uniqueness out into the universe. 579 00:48:25.019 --> 00:48:29.039 And that's why instead of saying that's my girl, he responds wicked. 580 00:48:29.099 --> 00:48:34.139 That was Sylvester's idea of saying, I want the doctor to accept days on her own terms. 581 00:48:34.199 --> 00:48:39.119 There's no condescensional patronising in the term when he of that. 582 00:48:39.179 --> 00:48:42.659 And it would also be diminutive of a vase. 583 00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:44.400 So he simply mirrors her back. 584 00:48:44.460 --> 00:48:50.099 And also shows that I love the intent, but not necessarily condoning the action. 585 00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:52.199 Yes, it is a double meaning. 586 00:48:52.260 --> 00:48:54.599 He does mean, you know, you're a naughty person. 587 00:48:54.659 --> 00:48:56.699 Naughty, naughty girl. 588 00:48:56.760 --> 00:48:59.760 I just wish we'd had one of these with sylvan drag. 589 00:48:59.820 --> 00:49:01.739 It's so unfair. 590 00:49:01.800 --> 00:49:05.940 This would have been perfect rather than Ace and Gwendolen doing a frock up. 591 00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:08.699 It could have been Red Vers and Silv. 592 00:49:08.760 --> 00:49:12.719 He would have made the most astonishing Lady Bracknell in this one at the dinner party. 593 00:49:12.719 --> 00:49:15.780 And I would have not I wouldn't have clashed at all. 594 00:49:15.840 --> 00:49:18.659 He could have sat there and said, I know, very good. 595 00:49:18.719 --> 00:49:27.000 Very good Indian takeaway up Yakaiba Pass, so to speak, and it would have worked beautifully, and there would have been also filth. 596 00:49:27.059 --> 00:49:28.500 Cut. 597 00:49:55.559 --> 00:50:02.519 Wilderness, that way, it's getting off from Gabriel Chase, and we're off for dinner somewhere, but I don't think I'll eat the soup. 598 00:50:02.519 --> 00:50:09.119 Do come back next week, of course, as we take just a minute with the curse of Fenrick. 599 00:50:09.900 --> 00:50:17.579 Until then, you can find us online at Flightthrough Entirety Doc Sexy, flight through entirety on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at FTE podcast on Twitter. 600 00:50:17.639 --> 00:50:20.940 Do please leave a five-star review over on Bondfinger. 601 00:50:21.000 --> 00:50:25.980 We are almost about to finish the Pierce Brosnan era of James Bond. 602 00:50:26.039 --> 00:50:32.039 And in the coming months, we have a few special Bondfinger episodes coming for you as well. 603 00:50:32.099 --> 00:50:34.800 Some rather unexpected things, we think. 604 00:50:34.860 --> 00:50:45.840 So do come back for that that you can find Bondfinger at Bondfinger on Facebook and Apple Podcasts, Bondfingercast on Twitter and Bondfinger.com. 605 00:50:45.900 --> 00:50:49.739 Until next week, however, may your freeness not bite. 606 00:50:49.800 --> 00:50:51.300 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 607 00:50:51.360 --> 00:50:51.960 Good night. 608 00:50:52.019 --> 00:50:53.400 A hand button. 609 00:51:11.460 --> 00:51:19.739 That was slime through entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone, theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, logo designed by Anthony Wells. 610 00:51:19.800 --> 00:51:24.239 This episode, Gog and Magog, was recorded on the 30th of September 2017. 611 00:51:24.480 --> 00:51:27.900 The next episode will be released on the 29th of October. 612 00:51:30.960 --> 00:51:42.659 If you want to be a ladylike, why not enrol in the Gabriel Chase finishing school, where you can learn which fork to use when eating cockroach, and where the carved's brains are served before or after the primordial soup called. 613 00:51:45.719 --> 00:51:48.480 Ghost Light, 30th of September. 614 00:51:48.599 --> 00:51:51.239 Oh, we should try and be hilarious. 615 00:51:53.460 --> 00:51:57.000 I'm just seeing if they have the savages on Audible. 616 00:51:57.059 --> 00:51:59.940 Richard, could you just give me your level, please? 617 00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:01.500 Yeah, it's here. 618 00:52:01.559 --> 00:52:03.000 Tissu tech. 619 00:52:03.059 --> 00:52:04.440 Please give me a level. 620 00:52:04.500 --> 00:52:05.579 Thank you. 621 00:52:05.639 --> 00:52:06.300 Perfect. 622 00:52:06.360 --> 00:52:07.980 It's on there, Les Sauvage. 623 00:52:09.900 --> 00:52:12.000 The Dan Savages. 624 00:52:12.059 --> 00:52:13.320 Oh, expect I've already purchased it. 625 00:52:13.860 --> 00:52:15.780 Of course I am. 626 00:52:17.699 --> 00:52:19.559 Okey-dokey. 627 00:52:20.159 --> 00:52:21.840 We all good? 628 00:52:21.900 --> 00:52:22.739 I think so. 629 00:52:22.800 --> 00:52:23.519 News. 630 00:52:27.599 --> 00:52:31.800 Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety. 631 00:52:31.860 --> 00:52:34.320 The only Doctor Who podcast whose heresies appal you. 632 00:52:34.980 --> 00:52:37.320 So what is, damn it. 633 00:52:37.380 --> 00:52:39.179 Oh, what am I this one? 634 00:52:39.239 --> 00:52:40.380 Heresies are for you. 635 00:52:40.440 --> 00:52:41.940 Something outrageous. 636 00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:44.159 Theories appal you. heresy's outrageous. 637 00:52:44.219 --> 00:52:44.400 Okay.