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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 13:57:46

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast who invites you to come into the water where it's always warm.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan I'm not a little girl anymore Of course you aren't darling.

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It's Doctor Who's 1st example of a really well thought out two-year story arc.

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Oh, sorry, wait, no, it's Curse of Fenerick.

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Hooray!

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We all love the curse of fanfic, don't we?

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For a long time, this was my favourite story.

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I actually thought this was the best...

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A lot of people.

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Saint Kate Orman.

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Yeah.

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Well, I think that that was kind of like received wisdom at the time, and I think...

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It looked so fresh. looked so good.

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So it's Nicholas Mallett.

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And he's on location and this was a four-parter that wasn't originally meant to be on location, I think.

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It was originally going to be a combination of studio and location, but he just decided that it worked better on location.

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I actually ended up saying a bit of money doing it that way, too.

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Well, you can't tell.

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It looks horribly expensive and went over time and budget.

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You know this was going to be 5 parts, but the powers that be, and Mr. Powell, who we thought was our friend, said, no, keep it to 4 parts, cut all the nonsense out, which is why it's difficult to follow unless you watch the thing, because they wanted this series to end this year and they weren't telling anyone.

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No nonsense, no more publicity. just let it go Meanwhile, JNT stopped pushing for the 5th episode to flesh it out because he realised that.

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And, you know, this was him thinking we definitely have season 27.

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We're doing really well.

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He thought that if I tell the BBC that they've given me money to make 14 episodes and I make 15, they'll give me money to make 13 episodes and expect 14 next year.

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And of course, he didn't know that he wasn't getting another year.

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If he did know, he may have pushed to extend these episodes to half hours.

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We are 3 stories into what we didn't realise at the time, the last ever classic series, and this is the 1st time we've properly gone to World War II.

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Yeah, like now this is interesting.

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You know why we didn't get it under Barry Letts.

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We're all saving this off, dear listener, because there's so much to say about this and we're actually squirming in our seats from too much coffee and too much excitement.

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So we're saving getting into the story.

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We just going to do the do the peripherals.

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We're going to approach it as if by long boat and oars.

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Yes, and we haven't even got on to some of the oarsmen yet, have we, Brenton?

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No?

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No, it's very cool, face over there.

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But this is the point is that Barry Letts, who had been serving on a British submarine, not anyone else's, a British submarine in World War II.

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And really didn't like to talk about his wartime experiences, but actually vetoed.

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There were 2 stories that were going to include the Nazis.

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And he, no, no, no, no, no, we do not talk about World War 2 on Doctor Who.

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I think that for most of Doctor Who's run, it doesn't do the recent past. all. like it's something...

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More games, skirts around it.

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Well, I mean, it does World War I because we can't do World War II. yes.

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So the 1st time that the doctor travels back in time to a period when the show is on.

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Am I right about this?

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Remembrance?

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Yeah.

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So we never go back just 20 something years.

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Like we go back to the Victorian era, we go back to the early 20th century.

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Oh, we're contemporary, but it's...

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Yeah, and certainly in the Paris Letts era, we never go back in time, apart from Time Warrior.

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Oh, and and I guess...

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I think the best of the per one.

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Go back and listen to that.

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We're good in that.

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The World War 2 setting lends it a bit of gravitas without making the mistake of putting Nazis on screen.

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And I do think that, you know, having World War 2 with Nazis would just deform...

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Doctor Who doesn't have the dramatic weight to cope with that.

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And it's more interesting putting in Soviets, well, polls as decorated as Soviets for this. because we're talking about the boundaries and distinctions and sides changing during conflict as we're about to get with the chess game.

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It's perfection that we have, Soviets and rather than Nazis, which would have been really obvious.

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Also, we're still selling to RTL.

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So cough cough.

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But I do think too, that there is a Cold War metaphor for this as well. in the sense that the story is suffused with an idea of the evil inherent in humanity, and that that's one of the massive themes of the entire story.

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And that is...

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Levine isn't with us?

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No, no, but we remember him.

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But, you know, there is in the story a massive underground stash of missiles filled with enough poison to kill everything in the world.

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Or the boob room, as the rock was called it. look a bit like that.

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Do go back and have a look, yes.

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A wall of nipples.

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Yes, the Diana Dores Memorial.

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But it is there rarefied as how evil and destructive we are.

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And so Nicholas Parsons has lost his faith because of the bombing of Dresden.

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You know, the girls are told by Miss Hardacre that there's evil in their hearts and there's no good in them and that turns out to be true.

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We discover just like Servoland in terminal that humanity evolves into sort of horrific monsters throughout the fulness of time.

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The whole thing is set in this atmosphere of evil.

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And so what better place to set it than this sort of massive, terrifying conflict that looms over the 20th century?

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I think another good reason that they don't just say it's World War 2, so it's going to be a story about Nazis is, of course, that in human terms, it's the British naval commander who's the villain.

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Yes, you know, Millington is the villain.

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And if you had a World War 2 story with a Nazi invading force, but then revealed that a British character...

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Yeah, it's kind of like, that's a bit awkward.

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This was encouraged by Ian Briggs was fan of history anyway, but so was Kart Mall.

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And this was encouraged by everyone who was working on it because, of course, kids in Britain growing up understanding the history, we didn't quite get it at schools in Australia, but you know that Britain and Russia, as it was, before World War II, almost a century, were playing that long game with whole nations and with the Middle East as the prize.

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And of course, it's all about oil, but just, and where do we think Fenrick's jugs, cough, cough actually come from?

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The Middle East, of course, is the genie joke.

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Middle East, yeah.

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Yeah, but the whole nations were their chess pieces and this was playing along.

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Well, Germany was really not the deal and nor was France.

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It was Britain and Russia.

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So this story has a lot.

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If you're sitting at schooling or reading modern history. getting this.

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Kids.

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Also, poles. aren't they great?

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Playing Russians.

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You know, the fellow, the fellow who was, um, someone will film me in who was who was playing Ace's Louvre interest, one of them.

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I might say.

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Yes, of course, it was really uncomfortable playing a Russian officer and...

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Because he was... more because his family had gone through such awful experiences under the Russians during the war.

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It just adds depth and to everybody's performance.

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No one is indifferent to their work in this.

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Even to the point of bit players like Corey Pullman, who plays aces.

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Well let's not go there yet.

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Why did she not have an extraordinary career after this?

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There's no one in this that doesn't glitter?

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She's amazing, and that little subplot, which is just sketched out in a few scenes, is incredible.

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She's really, really good.

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And, you know, we get, as we have had, I think, in pretty much every story with Ace, except, actually, yeah, I would say except Silver Nemesis.

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Pair Sophie Aldred up with another strong female actress and we get amazing scenes which deliver character as well as plot.

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And the scenes between Sophie and Corey.

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They're at 1st touching.

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They tell us about the morality of the 1940s when Ace blithely suggests that maybe Kathleen's not married and Kathleen is just outrage, not outraged at the thought of an unwed mother, but that she might be mistaken for an unwed mother.

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Beautifully done.

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To the point that Briggs was really careful talking to her because people were still alive then and the folk on the thing about getting the speech patterns right in the dialogue, right?

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This is apparently how people in 43 in Britain talked, so the language and stylising Miss Hardacre, of course, being one of those girls who'd lost her reputation.

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Which is why she's not married.

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Which is made explicitly clear in the novel.

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And when she's listening to the record and Gene and Phyllis come back in and kill her in the novel, she's actually thinking about that boy whom she really did love and care for, but because they did things in the wrong order and he wasn't a matron.

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And he wasn't from a nice family and couldn't offer her the life her parents wanted.

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She had to then go away to the country for a little bit.

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That's why she's sort of listening to that record and smiling wistfully because she's actually jealous of these young girls who can be a bit freer and talk about being Lorna Jane or Gary Russell.

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You know, it is, it is slightly funny that, and I thought at the time it was a little bit risqué because it's the 80s, you know, and it's very strongly implied that Aces had sex by the line, I'm not a little girl.

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And also in the novel, there is some joke about maiden's point, you know, and whether Gene Phyllis.

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How cold that water actually is?

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Well, our Jean Phyllis and Ace actually maidens at this point.

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Well, either Gene or Phyllis actually say when Ace says, oh, let's go to Maiden's Point.

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Well, yeah, it's Gina says that rules me and Phyllis out.

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Yeah, yeah, but I think it rules Ace out as well.

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And then the idea that in Ace's peer group.

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She doesn't actually know anyone who's married.

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She's sort of slightly weirded out by the fact that Kathleen is married and she just assumes, oh, well, you know, is it your boyfriend?

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And she thinks about not being married either.

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I actually thought that that was a little bit risque even for sort of the late 1980s in a kid's show to kind of strongly imply all of that sort of stuff.

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And it's certainly something that we would never have dreamed of doing, you know, 10 years earlier on Doctor Who.

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That's the lovely thing. meant for family viewing.

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And that's why it's so strong, has been so strong in the comeback.

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Ah, can you imagine if this had just got its publicity?

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I don't think it would ever have been taken off there.

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No, absolutely not.

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You know, because of this season.

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Season 24 averaged just over 4000000 season 25 averaged just over 5 million. was that 6000000 by the end of the season.

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This season, of course, we discussed a couple of weeks ago, started out at 3 million.

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At this point, it had grown, and this story averages over 4000000 viewers.

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So we're back up to season 24 levels, opposite Coronation Street with almost no publicity.

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Not bad.

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Not bad at all.

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Not bad.

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There's so much in this.

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Gamesmanship, of course, the history of computing, unmarried motherness, drawing on the backs of your legs, something for everyone, isn't it?

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Homosexuality and chemical castration.

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Yes.

152
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And Ian Briggs has explicitly confirmed that Judson's paralysis and paraplegia was a metaphor for Turing's homosexuality.

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Now, for those of you who don't know, of course, highly recommended the imitation game with Benedict Cumberbatch.

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And even better one, and what this was based on was at the time was Andrew Hodges, Alan Turing the Enigma.

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But, you know, during at the time in the 80s, where he was actually quite more known to us who were just starting university because he was figuring in a lot of, um, you know, amateur productions and plays and and writing as the go-to figure in the pre-AZT days of HIV recognition and because he saved the empire in many ways.

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We can get onto that and what is actually happening with the computers.

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So he, he, um, he kind of codefines this, this idea of the touring machine, which is capable of doing all sorts of calculations that appear quite complex and that you would think actually needed a conscious mind behind them.

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But it is just a machine that consumes input, transforms it, and then does output.

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It's a very simple mechanical device.

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And that's what computers are But Turing took it to another level.

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Do you know who his sources were and who he wrote as his inspirations?

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Girdle, as in Girdle Esher Bach, and Lewis Carroll.

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Turing actually cites Lewis Carroll in his writing because no, not through his fiction, but for his symbolic logic work.

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Which, of course, plays into his fiction when characters say things like this word means whatever I say it means, which is very much a coding idea.

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Of Mrs. Thatcher.

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I mean, Ian Briggs has gone as far to say that, as far as he's concerned, from a writing point of view, Millington and Judson had had an affair.

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Oh, very much so.

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Yeah, and he's like, that's what I wrote, that's what was played.

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Of course, we couldn't say it because of Mrs. Thatcher.

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And because it's 19, and because it's 1989.

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It's in the novel.

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It's in the novel.

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And it is strongly implied in that scene where it's quite clear that Millington is responsible for the injury that put Judson in the wheelchair.

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And it's out of jealousy because Johnson was talking to another boy on the rugby field and Millington tackles him too hard.

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Yeah, it's in the novel.

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That's what happens.

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For listeners who may not know the full story of Alan Turing.

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I mean, I'll sum it up very briefly.

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He was, of course, one of the fathers of modern computing, but also built the Enigma decoder, which here is instead the ultimate decoder, which broke the German cyphers.

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He was also homosexual and of course closeted in the 1940s.

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He was found out after the war and given the option, I believe, of imprisonment or chemical castration.

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Do you know how he was found out?

183
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He was robbed.

184
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He was robbed by, well, just trade had been several times.

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Of course, you know, because blackmail was the industry.

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He just rang the local police and said, oh, I think some things have gone missing.

187
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And being lovely and vague, and in his own head, and they came over.

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One of the cops is very decent.

189
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Another one started debating him.

190
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And of course, he was honest.

191
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Oh, yes, well, he just left and I, no, I don't know who he was.

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And then, of course, they got him for the homosexuality.

193
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It had been known by the department and, of course, ignored because they were educated people.

194
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But no, it was this one bastardy cop that decided, oh, yes, I can see what's going on and used and abused the laxity of the laws to do what they did to this man.

195
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Yeah, the chemical castration.

196
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The idea was rob him of his libido so he won't have these libidinous thoughts for men and he killed himself.

197
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Yeah, but it also leads to a lot of major organ disfunction.

198
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Oh, no.

199
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It was a crippling series of treatments.

200
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Yeah, yeah.

201
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No, it's not just, you know, you don't feel up to it tonight anymore.

202
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It was like there were physical changes and things.

203
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I mean, it was really, really quite horrific.

204
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And there was a few years ago, a move to get the British Parliament, I think, to pardon touring posthumously.

205
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But even that's unsatisfactory because the whole idea that the state's role is to enforce heterosexuality on the populace is just outrageous.

206
00:17:47.940 --> 00:17:49.500
Yeah, the pardon is disgusting.

207
00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:51.839
That's right, because he didn't actually do anything wrong.

208
00:17:51.900 --> 00:17:55.259
And he was a hero.

209
00:17:55.319 --> 00:18:01.500
Anthony Beaver sights him as being one of the major reason, but that turning point just at that time.

210
00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:06.359
And they've worked out once Monty had had his success in the desert.

211
00:18:06.420 --> 00:18:07.619
They worked out later in that year.

212
00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:12.660
I think it was 43 that the coats had been cracked, but there were 6 months where he turned it around.

213
00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:14.519
His discoveries really made it work.

214
00:18:14.579 --> 00:18:16.140
And computing in general.

215
00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:22.440
I mean, we wouldn't have, you know, the theoretical basis of computing and that idea of the touring machine.

216
00:18:22.500 --> 00:18:30.119
Well, he was also using von Neumann's 1928 theories, you know, of gamesmanship, which we talked about, which, of course, are in this script.

217
00:18:30.180 --> 00:18:31.440
There's a lot going on.

218
00:18:31.619 --> 00:18:36.539
I mean, there is a reference explicitly to the prisoner's dilemma.

219
00:18:36.599 --> 00:18:37.079
Yes.

220
00:18:37.140 --> 00:18:37.859
You know what that is?

221
00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:44.519
that's when a cop takes the 2 suspects into separate cells and says, okay, we'll broker a deal with you.

222
00:18:44.579 --> 00:18:49.019
If you grasp on the other bloke, I'll lessen your sentence.

223
00:18:49.079 --> 00:18:51.299
And of course, the idea is that it's reduced down.

224
00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:54.960
That's John Nash, as in the subject of a beautiful mind.

225
00:18:55.019 --> 00:18:56.160
You know, that one.

226
00:18:56.220 --> 00:19:00.299
Nash is actually a psychopathic schizophrenic.

227
00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:02.579
And he also...

228
00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:03.299
Still alive?

229
00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:04.319
A Doctor Who fan.

230
00:19:04.380 --> 00:19:06.180
John Nash is a Doctor Who fan.

231
00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:07.380
And it's been lampooned.

232
00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:14.279
So, that the Princeton dilemma thing has been lamping because and shot down because it only works if you've got 2 sociopaths.

233
00:19:14.339 --> 00:19:24.480
Well, it's a little bit different from that because what you do with game theory is that you have a iterated prisoner's dilemma where you have a past and a future.

234
00:19:24.539 --> 00:19:30.000
You know, the way the prisoner's dilemma is set up is that there are 2 prisoners.

235
00:19:30.059 --> 00:19:37.319
If one of them defects, they call it and sort of says the other one is guilty, turns the other one in, they get a reduced sentence.

236
00:19:37.319 --> 00:19:42.299
If both of them do it though, then they're in sort of really serious trouble.

237
00:19:42.299 --> 00:19:47.579
Both of them refuse to, if both of them refuse to cooperate, they'll get off lightly.

238
00:19:47.640 --> 00:19:54.420
But because they can't hear each other, you can't guarantee that the other person's not going to defect on you.

239
00:19:54.480 --> 00:20:02.039
And so even though the best outcome for everyone is that neither of you defect, because that's unenforceable.

240
00:20:02.099 --> 00:20:04.319
In fact, you kind of have to defect.

241
00:20:04.380 --> 00:20:10.019
But once you reiterate it, once you meet one another again and again and again, do you know what I mean?

242
00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:28.980
Then you've got the prospect of revenge and payback and gratitude and all of those kinds of things, and you start to be able to model, uh, you know, like animal behaviour in a sort of social context because reiterating the prisoner's dilemma allows there to be sort of past and future and stuff like that.

243
00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:37.319
So it's a kind of thought technology that enables us to think about how kind of social animals interact with one another.

244
00:20:37.380 --> 00:20:39.420
So anyway, it's a theme.

245
00:20:39.539 --> 00:20:40.259
That's exactly right.

246
00:20:40.380 --> 00:20:42.779
So it's a flip-flop thingy.

247
00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:43.920
It's a flip-flop thingy.

248
00:20:43.980 --> 00:20:54.720
In a story which is about, you know, human evil, the prisoner's dilemma, which is like an atom of human behaviour is quite a good thing to reference, I think.

249
00:20:54.960 --> 00:21:03.420
On the topic of human evil, many of the main characters in the story have had their bloodlines touched by Fenrick.

250
00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:09.660
So Captain Soren, Commander Millington, Dr. Judson, um, and Kathleen and Ace, of course.

251
00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:15.119
And so the implication there is, of course, you know, Millington is evil.

252
00:21:15.180 --> 00:21:20.160
Millington is planning to indiscriminately kill with chemical weapons.

253
00:21:20.220 --> 00:21:24.180
You know, there's no doubt about that and all he cares about is winning the war.

254
00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:37.019
The Russian soldiers who are guarding the doctor and ace as they come out of the tunnel at one point, 1000000s and seals them in despite the fact there would have been plenty of time for them to get out and still steal the hemovores in, but he's like, no, I've got what I want.

255
00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:38.400
I've got what's important.

256
00:21:38.460 --> 00:21:42.839
Soren and Judson, of course, become possessed by Fenrick and become evil.

257
00:21:42.900 --> 00:21:48.720
And Ace is kind of tempted into evil several times.

258
00:21:48.779 --> 00:21:54.779
So by Gene and Phyllis, for instance, by Fenrick at the end. different forms of evil rules.

259
00:21:54.839 --> 00:21:56.579
But just she...

260
00:21:56.640 --> 00:22:00.059
She also inadvertently helps Fenwick twice.

261
00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:07.559
Like, by telling Judson that the final inscription is a computer program is a logic diagram.

262
00:22:07.619 --> 00:22:09.839
The greatest sin is pride, isn't it?

263
00:22:09.900 --> 00:22:13.200
She actually has Pertwe's pride in knowledge of itself.

264
00:22:13.319 --> 00:22:14.819
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

265
00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:20.220
Have halftime score, you know, pair of Vale, several million, you know, rest of the universe nil.

266
00:22:20.279 --> 00:22:23.700
And then, of course, she explains to Soren how to defeat the chess game.

267
00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:26.880
But it's also the doctor's pride.

268
00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:32.700
Because the doctor doesn't think that anyone could possibly understand what his plan is, so he doesn't explain it to anyone.

269
00:22:32.819 --> 00:22:38.339
Because I can't play this man. games, he said, in Ghost Life.

270
00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:45.660
Because, of course, the doctor later says, so long as Johnson doesn't realise that the final description's a commuter program, and A says, you should have told me.

271
00:22:45.660 --> 00:22:53.519
And then if he had told her what the chess move was, but said, don't tell anyone, anyone can be Fenrick.

272
00:22:53.579 --> 00:22:54.839
Fenrick can possess people.

273
00:22:54.900 --> 00:23:01.319
She wouldn't have run in and said, hey, Soren, I know what the solution is because even if Fenrick's not Soren at that point.

274
00:23:01.380 --> 00:23:03.000
He could still be around, you know.

275
00:23:03.180 --> 00:23:06.599
As much as the doctor has been training ace.

276
00:23:06.660 --> 00:23:12.180
There is still a lack of respect for her own intelligence and intuition.

277
00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:14.519
Like when she says I can distract the guard.

278
00:23:14.579 --> 00:23:19.440
He's actually really dismissive that she could possibly help in this situation.

279
00:23:19.500 --> 00:23:20.759
He's just, oh, how?

280
00:23:20.819 --> 00:23:27.299
Is that not just being 900 years old and having someone with you who is really a speck of life's distance?

281
00:23:27.420 --> 00:23:29.940
I think he's forgotten about sex.

282
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:48.539
But also, there has to come a time when there is an experiential gap in a relationship or friendship where you kind of think, okay, maybe this person is as experienced or as knowledgable as I am, but I'm choosing to be with them and I have to trust them.

283
00:23:48.599 --> 00:24:07.559
I have to trust that when they say to me, I can do something that they can do it. you know, and I think a big problem in this story, and it is referred to and pointed out in the plot, is that the doctor isn't trusting Ace with his plans.

284
00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:18.059
And we discussed it last week with Ghostlight, how he just kind of throws her into this house, knowing it disturbs her rather than saying, we're going to go back to that place and we're going to find out what's gone wrong.

285
00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:20.700
Same with Greater Show in the Galaxy.

286
00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:23.400
Like the doctor's like, oh, I've heard things about the psychic circus.

287
00:24:23.460 --> 00:24:24.119
I hate clowns.

288
00:24:24.180 --> 00:24:25.619
Okay, we're definitely going now.

289
00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:29.160
I've learned to pick my mouth.

290
00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:30.180
They sound great.

291
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:31.140
Oh, okay.

292
00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:32.220
Well, someone else then.

293
00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:35.279
It's like, it's like, you know what I really hate, doctor?

294
00:24:35.339 --> 00:24:36.599
I really hate cake.

295
00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:42.720
Banana lounges and long cocktails with fruit and then they terrify me.

296
00:24:42.779 --> 00:24:45.480
I really hate Spanish men.

297
00:24:46.140 --> 00:24:48.900
You know what I really hate, doctor.

298
00:24:49.019 --> 00:24:51.839
Firefighters in cybersuits.

299
00:24:51.900 --> 00:24:54.059
Let's not let's not go near any of those.

300
00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:58.980
It's amazing you didn't start gaming like that.

301
00:24:59.579 --> 00:25:06.059
This all comes to a head because she calls him out on it in the 2nd last story of the classic series.

302
00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:10.559
She actually rounds on him and yells at him and says you're treating me like a fool.

303
00:25:10.619 --> 00:25:19.740
You knew it was a, and she, you know, she says when she finds out that she shouldn't have told Judson about the computer program.

304
00:25:19.799 --> 00:25:21.240
She says, why didn't you tell me?

305
00:25:21.299 --> 00:25:23.220
And then in this speech.

306
00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:31.680
It's like, you knew about this, you didn't tell me, you know, you don't respect me, you can't be bothered to include me in your plans.

307
00:25:31.740 --> 00:25:32.339
You know?

308
00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:41.400
Yeah, and the amazing thing is, unlike, say, later on, sometimes Rose Tyler, who makes it all about, you didn't, you know, you didn't tell me what about me.

309
00:25:41.460 --> 00:25:44.700
A says you can't be bothered telling anyone.

310
00:25:44.759 --> 00:25:47.039
You know, she's not just fighting for herself there.

311
00:25:47.099 --> 00:25:50.039
She's fighting for the people who are caught in the crossfire of this.

312
00:25:50.099 --> 00:25:55.619
And it's another electric scene between the 2 of them because she's screaming in his face.

313
00:25:55.619 --> 00:26:07.019
And I know some people have criticised Sylvester for the evil since the dawn of time speech, but I think it really gets across that he's talking about a concept that cannot be adequately described in words.

314
00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:19.859
He's searching for the way to describe it and his despair when he says somehow the evil force survives because the implication is there that the good force hasn't survived in the same way.

315
00:26:20.039 --> 00:26:24.420
And I think like to think it's just dispersed, like all the other...

316
00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:26.759
Yeah, yeah. whereas the evil has kind of stayed together.

317
00:26:26.819 --> 00:26:30.420
But he's really sad, like the way he chooses to play it.

318
00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:34.859
And I've said, like I don't think Sylvester's very convincing at playing anger.

319
00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:38.519
And I do think that there are bits of that scene that aren't that great.

320
00:26:38.579 --> 00:26:39.960
He's been a lot better as he's gone on.

321
00:26:40.019 --> 00:26:47.039
And certainly there's an admixture of sadness in the way he plays that scene and I like that a great deal.

322
00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:52.859
Someone we haven't mentioned, of course, you know, we've talked about Dinsdale, Landon, Dr. Johnson.

323
00:26:52.920 --> 00:26:53.700
Pig in the middle.

324
00:26:53.819 --> 00:26:55.440
And Reed.

325
00:26:55.500 --> 00:26:56.099
Sorry.

326
00:26:56.099 --> 00:26:56.880
Anne Reed.

327
00:26:56.940 --> 00:26:58.259
No, we didn't call her pig in the middle.

328
00:26:58.319 --> 00:26:59.700
It was a series that Landon did.

329
00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:01.799
He was kind of known as a one note performer.

330
00:27:01.859 --> 00:27:10.259
I think he's really top notch as it was when he's in the chair, but once he stands up and plays Fenrick, he really nails this.

331
00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:17.039
You know, part of the thing is that he hated the contact lenses and he found them really off putting.

332
00:27:17.099 --> 00:27:24.119
And so you can see Fenrick blinking all the time. because he's really worried about these contact lenses.

333
00:27:24.180 --> 00:27:31.259
And of course, at the very end, he's gone blind, you know, because he can't cope with that chess game that they have.

334
00:27:31.319 --> 00:27:39.779
And I think he's really terrific and he's got those terrifying capped teeth or whatever the hell they are that makes his smile really scary.

335
00:27:40.259 --> 00:27:43.619
And don't interrupt me while I'm eulogising.

336
00:27:43.680 --> 00:28:02.039
Oh, I just love the idea that Dr. Judson seems to somewhat still be in there because when he confronts Crane, Fenrick says you've always been treating me like a child, but then changes back to, I think Dr. Judson would have wanted this.

337
00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:08.579
Yeah, it's the only death that he really seems to take a great deal of pleasure in.

338
00:28:08.700 --> 00:28:15.119
I do like the line, you know, when it comes to death. quantities so much more satisfying than quality.

339
00:28:15.180 --> 00:28:17.460
Oh my god, is Eric sane?

340
00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:18.839
I got the same haircut.

341
00:28:19.619 --> 00:28:21.539
The whole time.

342
00:28:21.779 --> 00:28:24.539
You know, his plan is to kill everyone.

343
00:28:24.599 --> 00:28:29.099
You know, we've all been there. there now.

344
00:28:31.500 --> 00:28:36.059
And of course, oh, no, let's talk more about Anne Reid.

345
00:28:36.119 --> 00:28:37.559
Because, of course, talk about Anne Reed.

346
00:28:37.619 --> 00:28:38.819
She is spectacular.

347
00:28:38.940 --> 00:28:39.720
We own her.

348
00:28:39.779 --> 00:28:47.039
She's really good Yeah, and then she comes back as a very own kind of vampire, of course, in Smith and Jones.

349
00:28:47.099 --> 00:28:47.940
It's wonderful.

350
00:28:48.059 --> 00:28:49.019
She's so tremendous.

351
00:28:49.079 --> 00:28:53.039
She really is so such a underrated episode, is it?

352
00:28:53.099 --> 00:28:53.579
Yeah.

353
00:28:53.640 --> 00:29:03.119
She and Alfred Lynch's Millington and Dinsdale landed have one of the best three-way scenes of the 80s for me, which is some...

354
00:29:03.900 --> 00:29:06.539
I'm curious as to where this is going.

355
00:29:06.599 --> 00:29:08.819
Some respect for the wheelchair, please.

356
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:09.900
He's an invalid.

357
00:29:09.960 --> 00:29:13.200
And Landon responds, I'm not an invalid.

358
00:29:13.259 --> 00:29:13.859
I a cripple.

359
00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:18.539
I'm also a genius, so shut up a pair of you, which I think is a wonderful lie.

360
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:31.799
And yeah, just kind of emphasises Johnson's frustration at the fact that, okay, yeah, my legs don't work, but I am still the smartest man in the nearest 50 miles, so shut up.

361
00:29:31.980 --> 00:29:36.359
But he's constantly being hauled around and patronised and things.

362
00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:38.220
Yeah, yeah, yeah. and reads character.

363
00:29:38.279 --> 00:29:40.380
You know, especially language professor.

364
00:29:40.440 --> 00:29:41.640
There's a layer depressant.

365
00:29:41.940 --> 00:29:43.559
And the mother?

366
00:29:43.619 --> 00:29:46.500
She was Daniel Craig's love interest.

367
00:29:46.559 --> 00:29:47.759
Oh goodness.

368
00:29:47.819 --> 00:29:50.460
No, the age difference was the plot point.

369
00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:53.160
Yes, and the paper straws.

370
00:29:53.220 --> 00:29:53.519
Yeah.

371
00:29:54.359 --> 00:30:04.559
Whereas now Daniel Craig gets asked what it's like acting with an older woman who is 3 years older than him and he takes them to bloody task on it.

372
00:30:04.619 --> 00:30:05.759
What do you mean by older?

373
00:30:05.819 --> 00:30:07.140
I'm only 3 years younger.

374
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:09.000
Are you saying that because she's a woman?

375
00:30:09.059 --> 00:30:10.200
Well, yes.

376
00:30:10.259 --> 00:30:11.880
In exactly that voice?

377
00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:17.759
Daniel Craig is Lady Bracknell.

378
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:21.960
So what do we think of Millington?

379
00:30:22.019 --> 00:30:24.059
Alfred Very, very good.

380
00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:26.759
And the reason it seems kind of odd and not quite there.

381
00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:27.779
It is odd.

382
00:30:27.779 --> 00:30:31.259
And the one clashing thing is the moustache because that was against naval regulations.

383
00:30:31.319 --> 00:30:34.440
You actually weren't allowed to sport a moustache if you were in the Navy.

384
00:30:34.500 --> 00:30:35.759
You could have a beard.

385
00:30:35.819 --> 00:30:37.920
Yeah, yeah, no facial hair.

386
00:30:37.980 --> 00:30:39.900
But it's because he was playing Hitler.

387
00:30:39.960 --> 00:30:41.400
And they were doing this.

388
00:30:41.460 --> 00:30:52.380
This is actually how they were cracking the codes before the enigma, which took a long time coming, Colossus, I should say, which was before that. took a long time coming and actually getting onto it.

389
00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:55.380
No, they were doing it by supposition.

390
00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:58.319
And by playing as the enemy.

391
00:30:58.380 --> 00:30:59.940
To think is the Germans thing.

392
00:31:00.059 --> 00:31:01.380
And they were going quite mad doing it.

393
00:31:01.440 --> 00:31:02.339
Yeah of course.

394
00:31:02.700 --> 00:31:08.279
An interesting point I found out during the week about Nazism in popular culture.

395
00:31:08.339 --> 00:31:10.259
There's a lot of it.

396
00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:11.400
Unfortunately.

397
00:31:11.460 --> 00:31:23.640
A few years after this, a very famous video game was made called Wolfenstein 3D, which was one of the 1st really popular mainstream, 1st person shooting games.

398
00:31:23.700 --> 00:31:28.619
And so you were an American soldier trapped in a Nazi fortress trying to escape.

399
00:31:28.980 --> 00:31:33.539
The original game manual didn't use the word Nazi.

400
00:31:33.660 --> 00:31:35.400
It used the word Germans.

401
00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:48.660
And one of the programmers said, I had to spend an hour explaining to the team that not all Germans were Nazis. 2 words were not interchangeable.

402
00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:51.839
They were at the time, but yes.

403
00:31:51.900 --> 00:32:00.059
Well, the point he was trying to make was, okay, yes, everyone in German, it was on the Nazi side, if you like, but there was resistance even within Germany.

404
00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:02.759
And if you just say Nazi equals German.

405
00:32:02.819 --> 00:32:05.579
Even the Nazis were not all Nazis.

406
00:32:05.640 --> 00:32:19.680
Look at Rudolph Hess would very much oppose to Hitler's programmer, entity to the other officers' programs. who can say I was going, look, we don't know their position on genocide, but it seemed to be, it seemed to have a bit of momentum. at the time.

407
00:32:19.740 --> 00:32:20.279
Yes.

408
00:32:20.339 --> 00:32:21.660
But that's the thing.

409
00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:32.039
Ace walks into Millington's office. office and says immediately, oh, you know, he's secretly a Nazi and the doctor's like, no, he's just pretending to be one to, but it's called acting, dear.

410
00:32:32.099 --> 00:32:34.859
Yeah, you look at Indiana Jones.

411
00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:36.839
It's just like, yep, Nazis are villains.

412
00:32:36.900 --> 00:32:53.460
And Nazis are villains, but reducing them to just a villain and often a comic villain in popular culture is part of what has led to the softening of how we perceive Nazism to do.

413
00:32:53.460 --> 00:32:57.779
Oh, the softening and the welcoming of how we see fascism now.

414
00:32:57.839 --> 00:33:01.200
Well, I think we seem to be quite comfortable with it as a culture, don't we?

415
00:33:01.259 --> 00:33:04.140
Well, I mean, there's enough time to forget.

416
00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:10.259
You know, like, I think that Doctor Who did well to avoid having actual Nazis.

417
00:33:10.380 --> 00:33:17.940
I mean, we had the comedy stupid Nazis in Sylvan Nemesis, but they weren't World War II.

418
00:33:18.059 --> 00:33:19.980
No, and let's not go to Let's kill Hitler.

419
00:33:20.039 --> 00:33:21.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

420
00:33:23.339 --> 00:33:24.779
Exactly.

421
00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:26.880
What were they thinking?

422
00:33:26.940 --> 00:33:30.660
I think that was just Moffatt's exhaustion writ large.

423
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:31.859
I should say, yeah.

424
00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:52.500
That's what I was saying earlier with, you know, if they had have had the Nazis in this story, It would have been impossible to present them in any other way than just rent a crowd villainy when the actual horror. of Nazism needs to be better explored.

425
00:33:52.559 --> 00:34:03.599
And it's actually, Terrence Dix manages to do that in Timeworm Exodus, you know, he really shows what it's like under Nazi occupation. good little scorcher of a book, isn't it?

426
00:34:03.660 --> 00:34:04.500
well, yeah.

427
00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:06.359
I just don't think you can do it on television.

428
00:34:06.420 --> 00:34:08.039
No, I just think it can't be done.

429
00:34:08.099 --> 00:34:10.619
Unless you're doing hello, hello.

430
00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:11.460
Yeah, yeah.

431
00:34:11.519 --> 00:34:15.300
But I mean, Doctor Who is not that kind of programmed.

432
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:17.280
Yeah, when it tries to be, it doesn't get there.

433
00:34:17.340 --> 00:34:18.599
No, that's right.

434
00:34:18.659 --> 00:34:20.460
Let's kill Hitler.

435
00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:24.539
But, you know, one week it's robot lizards and the next week it's Nazis.

436
00:34:24.599 --> 00:34:26.099
I mean we just can't possibly do that.

437
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:33.659
Whereas when it has characters standing in for fascists like the regime on Terra Alpha.

438
00:34:33.719 --> 00:34:38.880
Because it's somewhat removed from reality, it actually becomes a better commentary than if you just had fascists.

439
00:34:38.940 --> 00:34:41.699
Because it's the triumph of the tropes, isn't it?

440
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:42.900
Yeah.

441
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:49.019
It's really, you know, really, we don't have Lenny Reef and start working on the show.

442
00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:59.280
So you can't actually venerate or elevate fascism too, to its true, its true power, which is, I don't even comfortable saying this.

443
00:34:59.340 --> 00:35:00.900
It's purist aestheticism.

444
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:08.760
Fascism is, if you like, is an ideal, no less powerful than the opus day notions in high Catholicism.

445
00:35:08.820 --> 00:35:15.900
It's about the purity of a concept, and they both use books of Zion as basis for some of their ideologies.

446
00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:36.000
We're talking about the absolute, um, sinequine on of destiny of truth, of vision, of, it's quite shiny and spectacular to people who are prone to that sort of thing, you know, who tend to support the Australian ballet and um, like funding to be removed from other forms of the arts.

447
00:35:36.059 --> 00:35:44.219
But then again, those people have also been known to turn around and change the chess pieces and come to good in the end, haven't they, Mr. Brandis?

448
00:35:44.280 --> 00:35:44.519
They have.

449
00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:48.840
So can we, while we're on that topic, talk about the Russians?

450
00:35:48.900 --> 00:35:49.739
Yes, please.

451
00:35:49.800 --> 00:35:51.300
They are pretty, aren't they?

452
00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:52.500
Well, they're not Russian.

453
00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:54.780
So there's...

454
00:35:54.840 --> 00:35:56.219
There's Tomic Bork.

455
00:35:56.280 --> 00:35:57.719
There's Captain Soren.

456
00:35:57.780 --> 00:35:59.400
Peter Sharkovsky?

457
00:35:59.519 --> 00:36:00.119
Yep, it really is.

458
00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:02.639
As Sergeant Prozarov, who's my favourite.

459
00:36:02.699 --> 00:36:06.539
The Shinen is Marek Anton, who's my favourite.

460
00:36:06.599 --> 00:36:07.320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

461
00:36:07.380 --> 00:36:08.639
Not painted blue for this one.

462
00:36:08.699 --> 00:36:11.639
We'd all be quite happy seeing him blue in this one.

463
00:36:11.699 --> 00:36:15.179
And Petrosian. who's Mark Conrad.

464
00:36:15.239 --> 00:36:17.460
So they're the 4 named.

465
00:36:17.579 --> 00:36:19.739
Petrosian dies quite early, I think.

466
00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:20.940
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

467
00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:23.579
Well, I think he's the one with the papers on the beach.

468
00:36:23.639 --> 00:36:24.539
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

469
00:36:24.599 --> 00:36:26.760
And then there's the sergeant who gets killed quite.

470
00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:29.400
Yeah, that's that's Prozorov.

471
00:36:29.460 --> 00:36:30.059
Yeah, yeah.

472
00:36:30.119 --> 00:36:36.119
And we've got, I think, in Captain Soren, another believable romantic interest for Ace.

473
00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:38.519
Many of us, I would say.

474
00:36:38.579 --> 00:36:45.239
Again, it's very underwritten, but it is played quite nicely, and I think Mark Ayres gives it a, there's a little romance theme.

475
00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:50.099
I do love Marcos, but he doesn't give us much choice in what emotion to feel for anything he's scoring.

476
00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:51.420
I actually don't care about it.

477
00:36:51.480 --> 00:36:52.559
It's Doctor Who.

478
00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:53.460
It's melodrama.

479
00:36:53.519 --> 00:37:01.260
It's the only thing I would criticise him for is that especially with ghost light, going back to how he scores in anything, is that you're made to feel this in this scene.

480
00:37:01.320 --> 00:37:09.900
But I think the reason it works for this and the reason it was so beguiling and so subsuming on the 1st viewing is you don't have time to keep up.

481
00:37:10.019 --> 00:37:12.539
But that's how people were living in 1943.

482
00:37:12.719 --> 00:37:14.159
There really isn't time.

483
00:37:14.219 --> 00:37:15.780
Everything has to be done very quickly.

484
00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:19.500
Every emotional exchange, every thought, every, you just didn't have.

485
00:37:19.559 --> 00:37:20.820
Yeah, they didn't sleep very much.

486
00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:24.420
They constantly knew, this might be the last day or the last moment.

487
00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:28.079
So in the levels of cortisol and anxiety, are there.

488
00:37:28.079 --> 00:37:30.360
And it's reflected in the pace of this story.

489
00:37:30.420 --> 00:37:31.619
There is a problem.

490
00:37:31.619 --> 00:37:37.320
Nicholas Parsons. let's get back to Nicholas Parsons in a 2nd because you alluded to this before.

491
00:37:37.380 --> 00:37:50.880
There is, of course, on the DVD, a longer version, and the way it seems to have worked is there's more material than they can fit into the episodes.

492
00:37:50.940 --> 00:37:58.079
And so what they do is they cut out the middle of scenes and they switch from scene to scene.

493
00:37:58.139 --> 00:38:13.619
And so episode one is very bits and pieces and a little bit hard to follow and the reconstructed version on the DVD is much more leisurely and much more kind of comprehensible and satisfying.

494
00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:22.500
And it's something that we've said about the whole caramel era is he's not that good at working out how much can be done in 25 minutes on television.

495
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:26.880
And so everything tends to be overwritten and then sort of chopped down.

496
00:38:26.940 --> 00:38:30.179
So I do think episode one is a bit unsatisfactory for that reason.

497
00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:32.760
Nicholas Parsons.

498
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:34.619
Nicholas Parsons, who knew?

499
00:38:34.679 --> 00:38:36.000
extraordinary.

500
00:38:36.059 --> 00:38:38.039
Now, he did start off as an actor.

501
00:38:38.099 --> 00:38:51.300
He actually started off as a straight man, just after the war with Haynes, with Arthur Haynes as the 2nd banana, and then his, one of his 1st TV work was with Jerry Anderson, blue cars ads in the 50s.

502
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:53.699
He was a marionette, wasn't he?

503
00:38:53.760 --> 00:39:00.179
He was a painted silver-faced thing with his wife, Denise, who then did the voice of Zelda many years later on Terror Hawks.

504
00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:05.159
Um, and Parsons did do voices for Anderson on and off over the years.

505
00:39:05.219 --> 00:39:10.199
Oh, on sale of the century, which was from, you know, now from Norwich, sales of the century.

506
00:39:10.260 --> 00:39:12.539
And if you've been to England, you know just how funny that actually is.

507
00:39:12.900 --> 00:39:19.800
But then, of course, since the year I was born, so it's now 50 years of just a minute.

508
00:39:19.860 --> 00:39:35.760
But he's seen as a sort of lovely silly duffer in a striped blazer and a cravat, and then he comes along and he does this with poignancy and subtlety, and deep concern, even with all lots of silly dripping blue painted latex coming at him through a false door.

509
00:39:35.820 --> 00:39:37.380
He can still carry it off.

510
00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:47.519
His silent silent moment, which is really one of the very few, probably only 2 or 3 still moments in this story, is when he delivers Paul's letter to the Corinthians. one Corinthians 13.

511
00:39:47.639 --> 00:39:48.719
That's the one.

512
00:39:49.320 --> 00:39:52.139
It's such an extraordinary moment.

513
00:39:52.199 --> 00:39:53.519
I really like him.

514
00:39:53.639 --> 00:39:58.800
I think they cut away from that, just a little bit early because they're worried about time.

515
00:39:58.980 --> 00:40:04.559
You know, the part is clearly written for someone much younger, like the dialogue makes it clear.

516
00:40:04.619 --> 00:40:12.900
Yeah, because I think the dialogue makes it clear that he's recently taken over from his father as vicar. look at Prince Charles.

517
00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:23.340
Yeah, but Miss Hardacre, Miss Hardacre, you know, seems to be hectoring him as if he's a young man who's not as good as his father.

518
00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:28.079
Kind of like that an older person is having to play younger, just because that does happen.

519
00:40:28.139 --> 00:40:35.219
I also think the crisis of faith works a little bit better with a younger person as well, who's likely to be a little bit more absolute.

520
00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:42.539
Well, you know, like I just can't think that an English Anglican clergyman of his age would believe anything very much.

521
00:40:43.199 --> 00:40:48.059
I mean, you've never really known love except in its most esoteric or ideal forms.

522
00:40:48.300 --> 00:40:55.559
It's, you know, and then to be of an age now where that is possibly passed as far as he's seeing it.

523
00:40:55.619 --> 00:40:57.119
And then to see this.

524
00:40:57.179 --> 00:41:01.739
I think that it can work for any age because the themes are so powerful and so base.

525
00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:03.840
Yeah, I do think I do think he's great.

526
00:41:03.900 --> 00:41:26.940
And I do think that scene, which is sort of strange, where he goes back to the double gates where, um, The Russians and the hemivores have been locked behind those double doors, and he deliberately stands in front of it because he wants to test his faith.

527
00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:31.500
Like, he's been told that faith will repel hemovores.

528
00:41:31.559 --> 00:41:34.559
And so he actually does it specifically to do that.

529
00:41:34.619 --> 00:41:36.360
I don't think he's being heroic.

530
00:41:36.420 --> 00:41:38.280
I don't think he's trying to hold him for his back.

531
00:41:38.340 --> 00:41:40.199
I think he's trying to test himself.

532
00:41:40.260 --> 00:41:51.719
And he nearly succeeds, but when the girls say there's no such thing is good in human beings, there's no good in you, there's no good anywhere.

533
00:41:51.900 --> 00:41:55.860
His faith collapses because he knows that's the case.

534
00:41:55.980 --> 00:42:05.579
He's in the middle of this war where the British have been firebombing German cities and he can't believe in good any longer.

535
00:42:05.579 --> 00:42:08.519
And so, you know, he fails.

536
00:42:08.579 --> 00:42:10.800
And again, Miss Hardacre's kind of right.

537
00:42:10.860 --> 00:42:20.699
Miss Hardacre criticises Wainwright for not having enough faith and criticises the girls for being immoral and she's right on all counts.

538
00:42:21.239 --> 00:42:23.579
In terms of Wainwright.

539
00:42:23.699 --> 00:42:37.019
There's something to be said for having a younger actor in the role, but I think it also works if you look at him as someone who, until this bloody war came along, he was doing absolutely fine and had no doubts about anything, but yes, it's the violence of the war that sets it off.

540
00:42:37.079 --> 00:42:57.780
But in terms of younger actors being considered, Jonathan Morris, who was Cheila in Snake Dance was considered, as was Christopher Villiers of the King's Demons, but also considered, were some lesser known actors, Christopher Eccleston, and Peter Capaldi.

541
00:42:57.840 --> 00:42:59.099
Ooh.

542
00:42:59.159 --> 00:43:07.679
This is a few years, as we now know, before Peter Capelli auditioned for the part of Captain Sisco on Deep Space 9.

543
00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:08.880
Wow.

544
00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:10.139
So there you go.

545
00:43:10.199 --> 00:43:14.579
Considered for Millington was James Warwick of Earthshock.

546
00:43:14.579 --> 00:43:18.300
And considered for Johnson were Edmund Hardwick.

547
00:43:18.360 --> 00:43:20.099
Oh, very good. a.k.a.

548
00:43:20.099 --> 00:43:21.360
Dr. Watson.

549
00:43:21.360 --> 00:43:23.039
David McCallum.

550
00:43:23.340 --> 00:43:26.039
And Martin Jarvis.

551
00:43:26.760 --> 00:43:30.960
God, they were going to ex Hugh Martin Jarvis again, were they?

552
00:43:31.019 --> 00:43:31.619
Yes, please.

553
00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:33.659
With a rubber glove on his head, paint him silver.

554
00:43:33.719 --> 00:43:38.760
They were going to pry him out of a fibreglass ant and point him in the direction of the camera.

555
00:43:40.619 --> 00:43:46.079
And he was playing the moth in that one, so it was uncomfortable for everyone concerned.

556
00:43:46.139 --> 00:43:48.119
Now, also in terms...

557
00:43:48.119 --> 00:44:07.559
Also in terms of casting, this story, Ghostlight, and I think Time and the Rani are possibly the only Sylvester McCoy stories are 2 only feature Caucasian characters, but this story does actually have one black performer.

558
00:44:07.619 --> 00:44:11.579
Yes, however, however...

559
00:44:11.579 --> 00:44:12.840
He's a stunt, dude.

560
00:44:13.199 --> 00:44:15.599
He's a he's a stunt man.

561
00:44:15.659 --> 00:44:33.119
And he's specifically the soldier underwater who opens his eyes when Johnson reads the inscription because the BBC requested a diver, he was sent out, but they couldn't find any historical evidence of black soldiers having served in the Russian army at the time.

562
00:44:33.179 --> 00:44:36.539
So they whited him up.

563
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:36.900
What?

564
00:44:36.900 --> 00:44:37.920
Really?

565
00:44:37.980 --> 00:44:41.159
Oh, very thick grease paint when he's underwater, yeah.

566
00:44:41.219 --> 00:44:48.960
And apparently, by all reports, he was absolutely fine with the logic of that and understood what it was and what have you.

567
00:44:49.019 --> 00:45:00.239
But we have also recently had a similar conversation, haven't we, with Mark Gatas. in his script, the Empress of Mars, which of course features, I believe, 2 black soldiers.

568
00:45:00.300 --> 00:45:03.900
Yeah, and Bo Derek's Dreadlock.

569
00:45:03.960 --> 00:45:14.159
Mark Gate has actually expressed concern, saying, were there black soldiers in the expeditionary wars and found out, oh, yes, they bloody were Markham, then was absolutely fine with it.

570
00:45:14.219 --> 00:45:24.780
And I think it's extraordinary that he kind of mentioned that in an interview, but made sure to say in the interview, but I found out I was wrong and that was my assumption based on my view of history.

571
00:45:24.900 --> 00:45:26.639
It's a pre-90s.

572
00:45:26.699 --> 00:45:30.719
We have to remember, even back when Star Trek Voyager premiered in 95.

573
00:45:30.900 --> 00:45:40.139
A lot of high-end fandom. across the board, as in literary people who are also fans saying, how can we have a black Vulcan?

574
00:45:40.199 --> 00:45:41.639
It's token cast.

575
00:45:41.699 --> 00:45:42.719
They're made up.

576
00:45:42.780 --> 00:45:44.400
They can be...

577
00:45:44.400 --> 00:45:45.059
It was the whole thing.

578
00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:45.900
What was the whole?

579
00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:54.420
Yeah, it was the whole thing of actually having, you know, and we now accept that we have women playing Hamlet and indeed even greater roles in British drama.

580
00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:57.719
But yes, but then it was really still questioned.

581
00:45:57.780 --> 00:46:03.780
Now, Richard, I know you haven't seen Star Trek Discovery yet, but I don't... saving it for under the Christmas tree.

582
00:46:04.019 --> 00:46:09.059
But I don't think it's too surprising for me to say that the lead actress is a black woman.

583
00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:13.019
Yes, and she's raised by, I've already wolved this out.

584
00:46:13.079 --> 00:46:13.380
Yeah.

585
00:46:13.380 --> 00:46:16.139
Yeah. by gods who build volcanos.

586
00:46:16.139 --> 00:46:26.219
Some ridiculous comment I read on YouTube. literally said, we already had Janeway and she's a woman and we already had Cisco and he's a black.

587
00:46:26.280 --> 00:46:28.019
So why do we need this character?

588
00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:29.699
Wow.

589
00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:30.360
Yeah.

590
00:46:30.420 --> 00:46:37.199
It's called inclusivity because we have to, because we're not getting across the board, you're not getting representation.

591
00:46:37.320 --> 00:46:38.099
No, exactly.

592
00:46:38.099 --> 00:46:39.599
So therefore, we're doing it in this.

593
00:46:39.659 --> 00:46:48.719
And the easiest ways to do this is science fiction because it's always been about what should be or what might be or what, for God's sake, is the place you do it.

594
00:46:48.780 --> 00:46:53.400
I mean, like 60 Star Trek is nowhere near as progressive as people give it credit for.

595
00:46:53.460 --> 00:46:54.659
Although they did have a pash.

596
00:46:54.719 --> 00:46:56.099
But for the time.

597
00:46:56.159 --> 00:47:03.179
Yeah, just having a black woman on screen getting dialogue was amazing, even though she had a thimble in her ear most of the time.

598
00:47:03.239 --> 00:47:13.260
And according to George Decay, Jean Roddenbury did say to him, I would consider making Saul Lugay, but I'm having enough of a fight, getting you and Nichelle on the screen.

599
00:47:13.320 --> 00:47:14.039
I'm really sorry.

600
00:47:14.099 --> 00:47:20.820
I don't know if that's not post thinking because, but anyway, let's give, I'd like to think might be more for the films.

601
00:47:20.940 --> 00:47:25.019
My understanding is that that came about when you see Sulu in the captain's chair.

602
00:47:25.079 --> 00:47:26.400
That's right, Su Tech.

603
00:47:26.460 --> 00:47:28.260
Yeah, I could be wrong on that.

604
00:47:28.320 --> 00:47:34.440
But a lovely discovery related moment, again, not a spoiler, at the premiere, Nichelle Nichols and William Shatner were there.

605
00:47:34.500 --> 00:47:45.719
And of course, Sanequa Martin Green, who plays Commander Burnham, as Michelle Yogen. watched Nichelle in Star Trek as a kid and so was saying to her, you know, you were amazing, et cetera, et cetera.

606
00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:49.260
And Michelle's response apparently was well kid. all yours now.

607
00:47:49.320 --> 00:47:49.980
Enjoy.

608
00:47:50.159 --> 00:47:59.880
And there's this amazing photo of the 2 of them, just our mouths open wide in thrilled pleasure at beating each other.

609
00:47:59.880 --> 00:48:01.800
And William Shatt, they're just in the middle.

610
00:48:02.760 --> 00:48:11.460
So it's like Sanequa Martin Green, Michelle Nichols and some bloke on Twitter. angry, angry bloke from Twitter.

611
00:48:11.519 --> 00:48:28.980
I do think that Doctor Who is now kind of dealing with this problem a lot better insofar as I think thin ice makes it explicit where they just say, no, actually your view that the past is white is a whitewash and they were always black people, but they weren't mentioned.

612
00:48:29.039 --> 00:48:34.019
It's not that we're suddenly inserting black people into a history that was full of white people.

613
00:48:34.079 --> 00:48:39.659
It's that you've erased them from history. we're going to put them back.

614
00:48:39.719 --> 00:48:54.599
And I actually think I was a little bit disappointed by the Mark Gatas thing because the question of whether there were really black people in an expeditionary force is, in fact, much, much less important than should there be black people in this Doctor Who episode.

615
00:48:54.659 --> 00:49:06.840
And like, no one thinks that Doctor Who is... has to be historically accurate, unless you think there really were sort of pteraleptils around, you know, in England's history.

616
00:49:06.900 --> 00:49:08.760
Should they forge underwater as well?

617
00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:21.360
So anyway, I know that we've strayed widely off topic, but I am sort of slightly disappointed by the white face, you know, Russian crew member story, I'm afraid.

618
00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:26.880
In a way, it's kind of heartening that they didn't say to the stunt agency.

619
00:49:26.940 --> 00:49:30.599
Make sure you send a white actor, but on the other hand, they probably just assumed...

620
00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:31.920
Well, he had a divers.

621
00:49:31.980 --> 00:49:33.719
He had a scuba diver's certificate.

622
00:49:33.780 --> 00:49:36.000
Well, that's not all that common, certainly not in the 80s.

623
00:49:36.059 --> 00:49:36.420
It wasn't.

624
00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:44.340
The fact that we have so much variance in the drama visually as well as emotionally.

625
00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:46.079
It's a tidal play.

626
00:49:46.199 --> 00:49:51.599
I really love that it begins and ends metaphorically and very significantly in the water.

627
00:49:51.659 --> 00:49:54.960
And yes, Sophie did do her own big dive off the rocks.

628
00:49:55.019 --> 00:49:59.579
No, Silv didn't push her. of her own accord.

629
00:50:00.239 --> 00:50:05.219
I was actually a little bit anxious about that because she is diving from rocks into the water.

630
00:50:05.280 --> 00:50:18.780
She was really bitter for ages that she said, no one can see it's me. tunic down because me knickers are showing and no one can say, which is again is another point when she does that whole ridiculous speech with the time in flux and a 2nd of a movement.

631
00:50:18.840 --> 00:50:19.920
1943.

632
00:50:20.099 --> 00:50:21.900
She just kind of said, do you want to see me pants, mate?

633
00:50:21.960 --> 00:50:23.340
And it would have been long.

634
00:50:23.400 --> 00:50:26.099
Well, he does say you promised.

635
00:50:26.159 --> 00:50:31.679
So really, do you want to see me pants, mate, did figure into the conversation a bit that we didn't see.

636
00:50:32.639 --> 00:50:35.099
I do love in that scene, though.

637
00:50:35.159 --> 00:50:36.420
Are you looking for someone?

638
00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:38.639
No, you.

639
00:50:40.199 --> 00:50:45.179
Because that is both beguiling and flirty, but also...

640
00:50:45.179 --> 00:50:48.300
A little bit dismissive. completely diminishing of him as a person.

641
00:50:48.420 --> 00:50:49.739
Yeah, but as a man.

642
00:50:49.800 --> 00:50:51.780
Yep, you've got a job, mate.

643
00:50:51.840 --> 00:50:58.920
And you know, something else I really love is when they're running away and Soren's been released.

644
00:50:58.980 --> 00:51:02.039
Sora just gives her this look of, you are amazing.

645
00:51:02.219 --> 00:51:06.000
And it's a slightly corny scene, but she plays it so well.

646
00:51:06.059 --> 00:51:09.000
A lot of this is corny because life is corny.

647
00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:21.539
And in these moments and this, the sense of urgency in this story, I had not seen in any other Doctor Who story, apart from perhaps the massacre, never seen the sense of pain.

648
00:51:21.599 --> 00:51:30.780
I actually joking that, but the sense of pace and drama and the constant fighting against the onset of despair and its despair itself that will destroy us.

649
00:51:30.780 --> 00:51:33.960
The only reason we can keep going is faith and hope.

650
00:51:34.019 --> 00:51:37.139
I'm getting a whole songs of praise thing from this season.

651
00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:38.099
I really am.

652
00:51:38.159 --> 00:51:42.599
Well, when Kathleen received her telegram that Frank's been careful.

653
00:51:42.659 --> 00:51:43.320
Oh, yes.

654
00:51:43.320 --> 00:51:46.619
When Ace finds her, again, it's desperation.

655
00:51:46.679 --> 00:51:47.940
It's like, what's wrong?

656
00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:48.420
What's happened?

657
00:51:48.480 --> 00:51:50.159
Tell me, I'll do anything.

658
00:51:50.159 --> 00:51:53.039
Yes, we've seen what that means.

659
00:51:53.099 --> 00:51:54.300
Yeah, we, yes.

660
00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:59.340
And she doesn't even finish reading the telegram before she just grabs Kathleen and won't let go of her.

661
00:51:59.400 --> 00:52:01.139
When you actually see that scene.

662
00:52:01.199 --> 00:52:06.960
I think there's a little bit of a spoiler about their relationship because Ace actually comes in at that hug.

663
00:52:07.019 --> 00:52:08.159
I think it's a bit ladylike.

664
00:52:09.420 --> 00:52:10.019
Underneath.

665
00:52:10.079 --> 00:52:13.019
Yes, that's what I mean, right underneath, yes.

666
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:19.260
It looks like Kathleen is actually hugging Ace, like comforting Ace. because of course she's her grandmother.

667
00:52:19.920 --> 00:52:21.900
How thick is that?

668
00:52:21.960 --> 00:52:23.219
She still doesn't work it out.

669
00:52:23.280 --> 00:52:24.539
I mean come on.

670
00:52:24.659 --> 00:52:26.820
Okay, I know it's necessary.

671
00:52:26.880 --> 00:52:30.960
I'd like to think that the reason that she says, go back and stay with my nan.

672
00:52:31.019 --> 00:52:33.000
I mean, really, have you still not worked it out?

673
00:52:33.059 --> 00:52:34.139
But she does.

674
00:52:34.199 --> 00:52:40.019
I'd like to think that the flat that she goes to is empty because the people are just away or there've been a bomb venom?

675
00:52:40.019 --> 00:52:44.219
And it just happens within that literally probably 24 hour cycle.

676
00:52:44.280 --> 00:52:47.820
She's moved in and the neighbours don't say anything because everything's in turmoil.

677
00:52:47.880 --> 00:52:50.639
And they're all doing it up indoors during the blitz anyway.

678
00:52:50.699 --> 00:52:54.599
Everyone was at it like knives and sixpence rolling across the floor.

679
00:52:54.719 --> 00:52:56.400
Nobody really knew what was going on.

680
00:52:56.460 --> 00:53:00.900
I actually assumed that her nan was her paternal grandmother.

681
00:53:00.960 --> 00:53:02.159
Yeah, yeah.

682
00:53:02.219 --> 00:53:04.320
But does that make sense too?

683
00:53:04.380 --> 00:53:05.460
Well, I don't know.

684
00:53:05.519 --> 00:53:08.280
I like to think she just came into an empty flat and started a new life.

685
00:53:08.340 --> 00:53:10.440
Yeah, that's how I read it as well.

686
00:53:10.500 --> 00:53:14.579
But, okay, Richard, you say A should pick up on that.

687
00:53:14.639 --> 00:53:18.900
In 1989, or I suppose 1990 here when you were watching.

688
00:53:18.900 --> 00:53:20.940
Did you pick up on it before Fenrick revealed it?

689
00:53:21.059 --> 00:53:24.780
Oh, gosh, it's hard to say that because we've seen, I can't remember.

690
00:53:24.840 --> 00:53:31.079
And I was coming back after it was I was at uni and so it was like 2nd or 3rd year and having, and we just loved this so much.

691
00:53:31.380 --> 00:53:34.260
I think you're just involved with the narrative.

692
00:53:34.320 --> 00:53:39.719
Look, yes, we all knew who she was because that's how these stories play out.

693
00:53:39.780 --> 00:53:42.840
But we're very forgiving of the characters involved in it.

694
00:53:42.900 --> 00:53:43.500
And you're right.

695
00:53:43.559 --> 00:53:45.059
There's so much tension going on.

696
00:53:45.119 --> 00:53:50.579
She probably can't be she's got a lot happening for the young for a young lass in this story.

697
00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:52.619
You know what?

698
00:53:52.679 --> 00:54:01.440
I think maybe if she hadn't found out the baby's name until the baby was leaving because that scene early on with like her name's Audrey, oh, I hate it. my mum's name.

699
00:54:01.500 --> 00:54:03.360
That doesn't really add anything.

700
00:54:03.420 --> 00:54:05.880
It's a bit on the nose, actually, isn't it?

701
00:54:05.940 --> 00:54:10.079
It's like, you know, if as she's bundling into the car face, but I don't even know her name.

702
00:54:10.139 --> 00:54:11.280
Audrey.

703
00:54:11.400 --> 00:54:16.559
And then, of course, Ace doesn't have time to think she's being chased down by Gene and Phyllis and has to have faith.

704
00:54:16.619 --> 00:54:20.219
And it could be Fenrick who said, Audrey, that's your mother's name.

705
00:54:20.340 --> 00:54:29.460
And we could have been told the name Audrey in a previous story, but then again, this story was designed to go out 1st this year, which is why Sylvester's wearing the duffle coat.

706
00:54:29.519 --> 00:54:34.559
Yes, and why we get the... the reveal of his new little outfit.

707
00:54:34.619 --> 00:54:36.599
But that's also, do you know what was Silv Stuffel coat?

708
00:54:36.659 --> 00:54:39.539
He wore that on location previous year to keep warm.

709
00:54:39.599 --> 00:54:41.280
So you just said, oh, I'll just keep it in.

710
00:54:41.340 --> 00:54:41.760
I love it.

711
00:54:41.820 --> 00:54:44.880
Oh, so it's there to reveal the new brand.

712
00:54:44.940 --> 00:54:45.780
Yeah, yeah, that's right.

713
00:54:45.840 --> 00:54:51.900
And also, it has slightly floppier pockets in his field jacket, so you can see his script page as well, Italy.

714
00:54:51.960 --> 00:54:56.519
Because as he describes it, you know, if the left pocket's fuller, it's earlier in the shoot.

715
00:54:56.519 --> 00:55:00.480
And if the right pocket's fuller, it's later in the shoot because I just moved the pages.

716
00:55:00.539 --> 00:55:08.099
This season was meant to be broadcast as Fenrick Battlefield Ghostlight survival.

717
00:55:08.400 --> 00:55:18.000
So, therefore, when Ace is talking to Audrey about, there was a house where near where I grew up in Perivale that gave me the creeps.

718
00:55:18.059 --> 00:55:22.320
It was meant to be foreshadowing, whereas here it becomes a reference to last week.

719
00:55:22.380 --> 00:55:24.059
Thankfully, it still works.

720
00:55:24.179 --> 00:55:25.739
Still really does work.

721
00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:28.139
But it mostly works because of Corey Pullman.

722
00:55:28.199 --> 00:55:33.360
Kathleen is just amazing as a volt face for older to play against.

723
00:55:33.420 --> 00:55:44.039
Yeah, you meet her, and then 2 seconds later, Millington's barking at her, and she has that wonderful rambling bit of, oh, I thought my cousin, this, that, the other, and she just really sells her character in that moment.

724
00:55:44.099 --> 00:55:49.860
I love Silv, almost picking Sophie up and saying, no, no, no, we're not arguing.

725
00:55:49.920 --> 00:55:52.860
We're not going to hit the base commander, Soph.

726
00:55:54.059 --> 00:55:57.360
And we have the betrayal scene.

727
00:55:57.420 --> 00:56:02.280
We've already had earlier on in the story and it's kind of there as an Easter egg.

728
00:56:02.340 --> 00:56:13.320
It's not essential to the plot, but when the hemovores attack the church, the doctor says under his breath, Susan, Ian, Barbara, Vicki, Stephen, Dodo, Katerina, I don't know.

729
00:56:13.380 --> 00:56:14.880
Sharon from Black Castle.

730
00:56:15.059 --> 00:56:21.900
But that's the idea that the doctor has faith in his companions. from the old...

731
00:56:21.960 --> 00:56:26.579
Do you know, I actually only think he gets as far as...

732
00:56:27.179 --> 00:56:29.880
And then he just says faith, faith, faith, because Sylvester couldn't be bothered now.

733
00:56:29.940 --> 00:56:31.380
Yeah, it's a good list of companions.

734
00:56:31.440 --> 00:56:39.239
Yeah, so we have that idea that the doctor has faith in his companions, which the new series has written into the characterisation.

735
00:56:39.300 --> 00:56:50.340
You know, most recently we've seen Peter Capaldi saying to Bill, his doctor saying to Bill, there are 7000000000 idiots on this planet, but occasionally there's someone like you and that's why I put up with the rest of them.

736
00:56:51.179 --> 00:56:51.539
You know?

737
00:56:51.599 --> 00:56:56.400
So Ace then turns around at the end of this and has faith in the doctor.

738
00:56:56.400 --> 00:57:04.380
And unfortunately, the game is given away a bit because we cut to Sylv, and he says the hemovore can't penetrate her psychic force.

739
00:57:04.440 --> 00:57:07.260
Didn't you just say, could you come just come and stand over here behind me?

740
00:57:09.659 --> 00:57:13.619
Could you just go out and fetch me something from out there every 2nd time?

741
00:57:13.679 --> 00:57:14.940
That would have been bad.

742
00:57:15.659 --> 00:57:18.179
Let me just destroy you utterly.

743
00:57:18.239 --> 00:57:23.940
That is actually the most heinous thing that happens to her, I think, in the whole 3 years is he's bringing down of her.

744
00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:25.920
And doesn't self-play it well.

745
00:57:25.980 --> 00:57:28.559
Do you think he meant it just a teensy bit?

746
00:57:29.460 --> 00:57:32.280
I don't quite buy it.

747
00:57:32.340 --> 00:57:33.360
You know what I mean?

748
00:57:33.420 --> 00:57:34.380
Like, and it would be good.

749
00:57:34.440 --> 00:57:48.599
I was very careful watching it yesterday because, you know, it is so pivotal and it would be so great if it totally worked, but it really needs to be believable and it's not really believable, sadly.

750
00:57:48.659 --> 00:57:53.460
Yeah, I think that cutting to silve saying the hemophore can't get through.

751
00:57:53.519 --> 00:57:56.639
That undermines it a bit because we then know what he's doing.

752
00:57:56.699 --> 00:57:59.519
Whereas if it just had it been me a killer.

753
00:57:59.579 --> 00:58:00.000
Yeah.

754
00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:05.280
Because we've had that big lecture from her earlier saying you'd never tell anyone anything.

755
00:58:05.340 --> 00:58:09.119
And because when she said, I'll distract the guard, he's so dismissive of her.

756
00:58:09.239 --> 00:58:15.059
I think if we didn't get an insight into his mind there, it would have been a bit more believable.

757
00:58:15.119 --> 00:58:15.900
Yes, I agree.

758
00:58:15.960 --> 00:58:17.760
For what it is and what we get on screen.

759
00:58:17.820 --> 00:58:20.099
I think Sylv and Sophie perform it very well.

760
00:58:20.159 --> 00:58:27.360
His coldness when he's saying, you know, killer, she's an emotional cripple, of course I know she's your plaything.

761
00:58:27.420 --> 00:58:28.559
You think I didn't know?

762
00:58:28.619 --> 00:58:30.480
It's really well done.

763
00:58:30.539 --> 00:58:38.519
It is really scary and we've often said it's hard for doctor companions to get real emotion into their performance because they're not really given the stuff.

764
00:58:38.579 --> 00:58:40.500
But when Ace collapses.

765
00:58:40.559 --> 00:58:45.420
You know, Sophie gives it a really, really good go in a bizarre and unreal situation.

766
00:58:45.480 --> 00:58:47.519
I actually like it better.

767
00:58:47.579 --> 00:58:57.119
I think her best bit is where she yells at him when he tries to drag her out and then she kind of remonstrates with him afterwards for what he said.

768
00:58:57.179 --> 00:58:59.340
I think she does really well there.

769
00:58:59.460 --> 00:59:05.820
And I also think Sylvester's, you know, sorrow at having had to do that. as well is really good.

770
00:59:05.940 --> 00:59:08.519
Like, I think he does a great job. of that.

771
00:59:08.579 --> 00:59:15.000
Yeah, I love the emotional connection, but it only works because they've had 2 seasons to bring this together.

772
00:59:15.119 --> 00:59:16.500
Yeah, absolutely.

773
00:59:16.559 --> 00:59:27.719
I actually think that Ghostlight coming before Fenrick works better than Ghostlight coming after Fenrick, because this scene where he breaks her down and she forgives him.

774
00:59:27.780 --> 00:59:33.719
If 2 weeks later, he had have taken her to that haunted house, done it again. you've done it again.

775
00:59:33.780 --> 00:59:38.039
Where...

776
00:59:38.219 --> 00:59:39.599
Exactly.

777
00:59:39.599 --> 00:59:40.139
Exactly.

778
00:59:40.199 --> 00:59:51.900
Whereas, you know, we're given the impression that he respects her more now, she dives into the water and comes up as a woman with the shadows of her past dispelled.

779
00:59:51.960 --> 00:59:55.139
Yeah, literal catharsis, a literal cleansing, yes.

780
00:59:55.199 --> 00:59:55.619
Yeah.

781
00:59:55.679 --> 01:00:01.019
You know, there's something slightly off about that ending with dangerous undercurrents.

782
01:00:01.079 --> 01:00:01.980
Not anymore.

783
01:00:02.400 --> 01:00:04.500
Oh, everyone's dead.

784
01:00:06.360 --> 01:00:08.519
It is just like that.

785
01:00:08.579 --> 01:00:12.840
I actually think that speech is a little bit too on the nose as well.

786
01:00:12.900 --> 01:00:14.519
Yeah, it feels hurried, yeah.

787
01:00:14.579 --> 01:00:16.019
Or sort of overwrought.

788
01:00:16.079 --> 01:00:16.920
Do you know what I mean?

789
01:00:16.980 --> 01:00:20.519
Like, it's a little bit sort of kids, they are little underwater.

790
01:00:20.519 --> 01:00:22.559
Who knows what she was up to down there?

791
01:00:22.619 --> 01:00:25.860
But it sort of clears the emotional decks in that relationship.

792
01:00:25.920 --> 01:00:31.800
And so for the final story, They just go back and visit, you know, there's no manipulation.

793
01:00:31.860 --> 01:00:33.900
There's no hidden agenda.

794
01:00:33.960 --> 01:00:38.880
They're just going back to see how aces mates are getting on in Perivale after all this time.

795
01:00:38.940 --> 01:00:39.900
Yeah, exactly.

796
01:00:39.960 --> 01:00:49.860
Like the evil they discover that's going on there, they literally just discover when they land and it's the doctor going, there's something weird going on. which is what we want.

797
01:00:49.920 --> 01:00:56.219
People who do enjoy that scene with Silv and Sophie should really listen to Big Finisher's adaptation of love and war.

798
01:00:56.280 --> 01:01:05.280
Oh, yes, it's good. which ends with another scene where Ace confronts the doctor and it just had me in floods.

799
01:01:05.340 --> 01:01:08.280
They've had 30 years to work on these characters.

800
01:01:08.340 --> 01:01:08.940
Yes.

801
01:01:08.940 --> 01:01:10.380
As we record.

802
01:01:10.440 --> 01:01:13.860
It's the 30th anniversary of Time and the Rani going out.

803
01:01:13.980 --> 01:01:14.820
So they had...

804
01:01:14.880 --> 01:01:16.679
They had 30 years to work on these characters.

805
01:01:16.739 --> 01:01:18.179
And yeah, in in love and war.

806
01:01:18.239 --> 01:01:22.860
There's, I won't spoil it, but there's just one question that Ace asks the doctor.

807
01:01:24.360 --> 01:01:30.300
And he gives her an answer that she cannot accept and she explains why she cannot accept it.

808
01:01:30.300 --> 01:01:34.139
And all the way through, Sophie is screaming.

809
01:01:34.199 --> 01:01:37.739
And yet it's hard to perform through a scream.

810
01:01:37.800 --> 01:01:42.300
But she manages it so well and he is in such anguish.

811
01:01:42.360 --> 01:01:46.980
And it's it's kind of showing maybe he doesn't mend his way so much after this.

812
01:01:47.400 --> 01:01:52.440
They do revisit that theme too in the god complex, don't they?

813
01:01:52.500 --> 01:01:59.280
where the doctor tries to destroy Amy's faith in him because that's what the Minotaur thing feeds on.

814
01:01:59.340 --> 01:02:07.559
And I think that's a little bit more successful, but partly because the relationship between Amy and the doctor has been a bit more toxic and ambiguous.

815
01:02:07.619 --> 01:02:08.760
Yeah.

816
01:02:08.760 --> 01:02:09.000
Yeah.

817
01:02:09.059 --> 01:02:13.980
No, the gold complex definitely feels like an homage to the new adventures into this season.

818
01:02:14.880 --> 01:02:17.280
And also the Naimon.

819
01:02:17.280 --> 01:02:21.239
And Paul Cornell, friend of, well, other podcasts.

820
01:02:52.619 --> 01:02:57.960
Well, then, let's not, we're about to go on a final trip back to Perivale.

821
01:02:58.019 --> 01:03:00.840
So, do come back next week for survival.

822
01:03:00.900 --> 01:03:06.780
In the meantime, you can find us online at flightthroughentirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and Apple Podcasts.

823
01:03:06.840 --> 01:03:10.800
Please leave a 5 star review and FTE podcast on Twitter.

824
01:03:10.860 --> 01:03:12.539
Over on Bondfinger.

825
01:03:12.599 --> 01:03:16.920
We are just about to bid farewell to Pierce Brosnan as James Bond.

826
01:03:16.980 --> 01:03:23.219
You can find that at Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and Apple Podcasts, and Bondfinger Cast on Twitter.

827
01:03:23.460 --> 01:03:28.559
Until next time, may no one plants seeds in your face, which sprout in storage.

828
01:03:28.619 --> 01:03:29.940
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

829
01:03:30.059 --> 01:03:30.659
Good night.

830
01:03:30.719 --> 01:03:38.820
I've just realised that the VAC formed boob walls are actually the TARDIS time monster walls just turned around.

831
01:03:56.880 --> 01:04:01.679
That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bodderly, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

832
01:04:01.679 --> 01:04:05.519
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, logo designed by Anthony Wells.

833
01:04:05.639 --> 01:04:10.139
This episode, Wall of Nipples, was recorded on the 30th of September 2017.

834
01:04:10.440 --> 01:04:13.320
The next episode will be released on the 5th of November.

835
01:04:16.619 --> 01:04:28.739
According to Doctor Who Facts, after the curse of Fenrick, only three stories have been set during the Second World War, the Doctor Dances, Planet of Rationing, and the terror of Dame Vera Lynn.

836
01:04:31.800 --> 01:04:32.519
What do you think?

837
01:04:32.519 --> 01:04:34.619
Did we want to talk about the hemophores at all?

838
01:04:34.679 --> 01:04:35.519
They're blue.

839
01:04:35.579 --> 01:04:37.679
They're blue.

840
01:04:37.739 --> 01:04:39.719
It's a blue lady.

841
01:04:39.780 --> 01:04:40.980
Jeez.

842
01:04:41.039 --> 01:04:44.519
I think it's actually Denise, um, Parsons.

843
01:04:44.579 --> 01:04:46.860
I just think it's Nicholas Parsons wife.

844
01:04:46.920 --> 01:04:50.159
She was painting up blue, like colours before.

845
01:04:50.219 --> 01:04:54.179
As we know, as Barry always said, the colour for monsters is blue.

846
01:04:54.239 --> 01:04:55.139
Yeah, that's right.

847
01:04:55.199 --> 01:04:57.840
And, of course, 2 of Sylvester's.

848
01:04:57.900 --> 01:04:59.400
Sylvester's 2 sons are in there.

849
01:04:59.460 --> 01:05:00.420
Are they really?

850
01:05:00.480 --> 01:05:01.380
They play it blue.

851
01:05:01.440 --> 01:05:02.159
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

852
01:05:02.219 --> 01:05:05.159
Joe and...

853
01:05:06.420 --> 01:05:09.539
Cho and look them up.

854
01:05:09.599 --> 01:05:10.260
Radcliffe.

855
01:05:10.320 --> 01:05:11.820
James Radcliffe.

856
01:05:11.880 --> 01:05:13.440
James, I think is one of them.

857
01:05:13.500 --> 01:05:15.000
No, not Jim and Joe. Percy?

858
01:05:15.059 --> 01:05:16.619
He's Percy.

859
01:05:16.619 --> 01:05:17.280
He's Percy.

860
01:05:17.340 --> 01:05:17.940
Percy.

861
01:05:18.000 --> 01:05:18.659
H Smith.

862
01:05:18.719 --> 01:05:19.380
They're simple names.

863
01:05:19.440 --> 01:05:20.519
This will go after the credit.

864
01:05:20.579 --> 01:05:23.579
Yeah, I think so. simple names for simple.

865
01:05:23.639 --> 01:05:24.480
Yes, yes.

866
01:05:24.659 --> 01:05:26.400
There's too much in this.

867
01:05:27.300 --> 01:05:29.699
You know, we can start talking about.

868
01:05:29.699 --> 01:05:33.300
The runes and how, I don't want to talk about China's translation.

869
01:05:33.300 --> 01:05:42.119
So let's do, let's do Flight through Entirety, the worst idea in the universe where we do an hour-long podcast about Cursor Fenrik.

870
01:05:42.119 --> 01:05:43.980
Every week for the rest of our lives.

871
01:05:44.039 --> 01:05:51.059
Well, we, there's probably enough to talk about for if we do 4 or 5 of these, dear listener.

872
01:05:51.480 --> 01:05:56.460
No, only 4 because otherwise they won't give us the money to do 14 next year, right?

873
01:05:56.519 --> 01:06:00.539
That's right Okay, doesn't she?

874
01:06:00.599 --> 01:06:01.260
Let's wrap it up.