WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 12:24:08

1
00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:55.259
Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

2
00:00:55.259 --> 00:00:58.439
the only Doctor Who podcast who invites you to come into the water

3
00:00:58.439 --> 00:01:00.000
where it's always warm.

4
00:01:00.060 --> 00:01:01.679
I'm Brendan.

5
00:01:01.740 --> 00:01:07.079
I'm Nathan I'm not a little girl anymore Of course you aren't

6
00:01:07.079 --> 00:01:07.560
darling.

7
00:01:07.620 --> 00:01:12.239
It's Doctor Who's 1st example of a really well thought out two

8
00:01:11.400 --> 00:01:13.319
year story arc.

9
00:01:13.379 --> 00:01:15.120
Oh, sorry, wait, no, it's Curse of Fenerick.

10
00:01:36.180 --> 00:01:37.739
Hooray!

11
00:01:37.799 --> 00:01:39.900
We all love the curse of fanfic, don't we?

12
00:01:39.959 --> 00:01:42.359
For a long time, this was my favourite story.

13
00:01:42.420 --> 00:01:44.459
I actually thought this was the best...

14
00:01:44.519 --> 00:01:44.939
A lot of people.

15
00:01:45.000 --> 00:01:46.500
Saint Kate Orman.

16
00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:47.700
Yeah.

17
00:01:47.700 --> 00:01:50.700
Well, I think that that was kind of like received wisdom at the

18
00:01:50.700 --> 00:01:51.900
time, and I think...

19
00:01:51.900 --> 00:01:53.760
It looked so fresh. looked so good.

20
00:01:53.819 --> 00:01:55.920
So it's Nicholas Mallett.

21
00:01:56.579 --> 00:02:00.239
And he's on location and this was a four-parter that wasn't

22
00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:02.579
originally meant to be on location, I think.

23
00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:05.819
It was originally going to be a combination of studio and location

24
00:02:05.819 --> 00:02:08.819
but he just decided that it worked better on location.

25
00:02:08.879 --> 00:02:12.120
I actually ended up saying a bit of money doing it that way, too.

26
00:02:12.180 --> 00:02:13.919
Well, you can't tell.

27
00:02:13.979 --> 00:02:17.039
It looks horribly expensive and went over time and budget.

28
00:02:17.099 --> 00:02:21.240
You know this was going to be 5 parts, but the powers that be, and

29
00:02:21.240 --> 00:02:24.840
Mr. Powell, who we thought was our friend, said, no, keep it to 4

30
00:02:24.840 --> 00:02:28.139
parts, cut all the nonsense out, which is why it's difficult to

31
00:02:28.139 --> 00:02:30.840
follow unless you watch the thing, because they wanted this series

32
00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:32.639
to end this year and they weren't telling anyone.

33
00:02:32.759 --> 00:02:38.039
No nonsense, no more publicity. just let it go Meanwhile, JNT

34
00:02:38.039 --> 00:02:42.659
stopped pushing for the 5th episode to flesh it out because he

35
00:02:42.659 --> 00:02:43.620
realised that.

36
00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:45.960
And, you know, this was him thinking we definitely have season

37
00:02:45.960 --> 00:02:46.500
27.

38
00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:47.400
We're doing really well.

39
00:02:47.460 --> 00:02:51.300
He thought that if I tell the BBC that they've given me money to

40
00:02:51.300 --> 00:02:55.560
make 14 episodes and I make 15, they'll give me money to make 13

41
00:02:55.560 --> 00:02:57.659
episodes and expect 14 next year.

42
00:02:57.719 --> 00:03:01.560
And of course, he didn't know that he wasn't getting another

43
00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:01.979
year.

44
00:03:02.039 --> 00:03:05.580
If he did know, he may have pushed to extend these episodes to

45
00:03:05.580 --> 00:03:06.120
half hours.

46
00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:11.340
We are 3 stories into what we didn't realise at the time, the last

47
00:03:11.340 --> 00:03:15.419
ever classic series, and this is the 1st time we've properly gone

48
00:03:15.419 --> 00:03:16.500
to World War II.

49
00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:18.960
Yeah, like now this is interesting.

50
00:03:19.020 --> 00:03:22.139
You know why we didn't get it under Barry Letts.

51
00:03:22.199 --> 00:03:24.840
We're all saving this off, dear listener, because there's so much

52
00:03:24.840 --> 00:03:27.180
to say about this and we're actually squirming in our seats from

53
00:03:27.180 --> 00:03:28.620
too much coffee and too much excitement.

54
00:03:28.680 --> 00:03:31.259
So we're saving getting into the story.

55
00:03:31.319 --> 00:03:33.000
We just going to do the do the peripherals.

56
00:03:33.060 --> 00:03:36.900
We're going to approach it as if by long boat and oars.

57
00:03:37.020 --> 00:03:40.259
Yes, and we haven't even got on to some of the oarsmen yet, have

58
00:03:40.259 --> 00:03:40.860
we, Brenton?

59
00:03:40.919 --> 00:03:41.159
No?

60
00:03:41.219 --> 00:03:43.259
No, it's very cool, face over there.

61
00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:48.300
But this is the point is that Barry Letts, who had been serving on

62
00:03:48.300 --> 00:03:51.180
a British submarine, not anyone else's, a British submarine in

63
00:03:51.180 --> 00:03:51.780
World War II.

64
00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:55.560
And really didn't like to talk about his wartime experiences, but

65
00:03:55.560 --> 00:03:56.400
actually vetoed.

66
00:03:56.520 --> 00:03:59.099
There were 2 stories that were going to include the Nazis.

67
00:03:59.099 --> 00:04:03.479
And he, no, no, no, no, no, we do not talk about World War 2 on

68
00:04:03.479 --> 00:04:04.080
Doctor Who.

69
00:04:04.139 --> 00:04:08.039
I think that for most of Doctor Who's run, it doesn't do the

70
00:04:08.039 --> 00:04:10.680
recent past. all. like it's something...

71
00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:12.780
More games, skirts around it.

72
00:04:12.780 --> 00:04:16.319
Well, I mean, it does World War I because we can't do World War II

73
00:04:16.379 --> 00:04:16.560
yes.

74
00:04:16.620 --> 00:04:22.319
So the 1st time that the doctor travels back in time to a period

75
00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:23.579
when the show is on.

76
00:04:23.639 --> 00:04:25.379
Am I right about this?

77
00:04:25.379 --> 00:04:27.899
Remembrance?

78
00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:28.500
Yeah.

79
00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:31.500
So we never go back just 20 something years.

80
00:04:31.620 --> 00:04:35.639
Like we go back to the Victorian era, we go back to the early 20th

81
00:04:35.639 --> 00:04:36.480
century.

82
00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:39.000
Oh, we're contemporary, but it's...

83
00:04:39.060 --> 00:04:41.579
Yeah, and certainly in the Paris Letts era, we never go back in

84
00:04:41.579 --> 00:04:43.139
time, apart from Time Warrior.

85
00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:46.560
Oh, and and I guess...

86
00:04:46.620 --> 00:04:48.540
I think the best of the per one.

87
00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:50.459
Go back and listen to that.

88
00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:53.220
We're good in that.

89
00:04:53.759 --> 00:04:58.740
The World War 2 setting lends it a bit of gravitas without making

90
00:04:58.740 --> 00:05:02.339
the mistake of putting Nazis on screen.

91
00:05:02.399 --> 00:05:07.259
And I do think that, you know, having World War 2 with Nazis would

92
00:05:07.259 --> 00:05:08.759
just deform...

93
00:05:08.819 --> 00:05:12.120
Doctor Who doesn't have the dramatic weight to cope with that.

94
00:05:12.180 --> 00:05:16.740
And it's more interesting putting in Soviets, well, polls as

95
00:05:16.740 --> 00:05:21.660
decorated as Soviets for this. because we're talking about the

96
00:05:21.660 --> 00:05:27.060
boundaries and distinctions and sides changing during conflict as

97
00:05:27.060 --> 00:05:28.560
we're about to get with the chess game.

98
00:05:28.620 --> 00:05:32.639
It's perfection that we have, Soviets and rather than Nazis, which

99
00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:33.540
would have been really obvious.

100
00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:35.939
Also, we're still selling to RTL.

101
00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:37.920
So cough cough.

102
00:05:37.980 --> 00:05:43.079
But I do think too, that there is a Cold War metaphor for this as

103
00:05:43.079 --> 00:05:52.139
well. in the sense that the story is suffused with an idea of the

104
00:05:52.139 --> 00:05:56.639
evil inherent in humanity, and that that's one of the massive

105
00:05:56.639 --> 00:05:59.100
themes of the entire story.

106
00:05:59.160 --> 00:06:00.600
And that is...

107
00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:01.680
Levine isn't with us?

108
00:06:01.740 --> 00:06:04.079
No, no, but we remember him.

109
00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:09.839
But, you know, there is in the story a massive underground stash

110
00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:15.779
of missiles filled with enough poison to kill everything in the

111
00:06:15.779 --> 00:06:16.199
world.

112
00:06:16.199 --> 00:06:20.519
Or the boob room, as the rock was called it. look a bit like

113
00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:20.759
that.

114
00:06:20.819 --> 00:06:22.139
Do go back and have a look, yes.

115
00:06:22.199 --> 00:06:24.779
A wall of nipples.

116
00:06:24.839 --> 00:06:27.660
Yes, the Diana Dores Memorial.

117
00:06:28.800 --> 00:06:33.540
But it is there rarefied as how evil and destructive we are.

118
00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:39.600
And so Nicholas Parsons has lost his faith because of the bombing

119
00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:40.439
of Dresden.

120
00:06:40.500 --> 00:06:45.540
You know, the girls are told by Miss Hardacre that there's evil in

121
00:06:45.540 --> 00:06:48.480
their hearts and there's no good in them and that turns out to be

122
00:06:48.480 --> 00:06:48.839
true.

123
00:06:48.959 --> 00:06:55.319
We discover just like Servoland in terminal that humanity evolves

124
00:06:55.319 --> 00:06:59.519
into sort of horrific monsters throughout the fulness of time.

125
00:06:59.579 --> 00:07:05.160
The whole thing is set in this atmosphere of evil.

126
00:07:05.220 --> 00:07:09.120
And so what better place to set it than this sort of massive

127
00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:12.060
terrifying conflict that looms over the 20th century?

128
00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:17.220
I think another good reason that they don't just say it's World

129
00:07:17.220 --> 00:07:20.879
War 2, so it's going to be a story about Nazis is, of course, that

130
00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:27.360
in human terms, it's the British naval commander who's the

131
00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:27.779
villain.

132
00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:30.060
Yes, you know, Millington is the villain.

133
00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:34.920
And if you had a World War 2 story with a Nazi invading force, but

134
00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:38.040
then revealed that a British character...

135
00:07:38.100 --> 00:07:40.079
Yeah, it's kind of like, that's a bit awkward.

136
00:07:40.439 --> 00:07:46.139
This was encouraged by Ian Briggs was fan of history anyway, but

137
00:07:46.139 --> 00:07:47.519
so was Kart Mall.

138
00:07:47.579 --> 00:07:51.420
And this was encouraged by everyone who was working on it because

139
00:07:51.420 --> 00:07:55.860
of course, kids in Britain growing up understanding the history, we

140
00:07:55.860 --> 00:07:58.139
didn't quite get it at schools in Australia, but you know that

141
00:07:58.139 --> 00:08:02.699
Britain and Russia, as it was, before World War II, almost a

142
00:08:02.699 --> 00:08:07.740
century, were playing that long game with whole nations and with

143
00:08:07.740 --> 00:08:09.180
the Middle East as the prize.

144
00:08:09.240 --> 00:08:12.300
And of course, it's all about oil, but just, and where do we think

145
00:08:12.300 --> 00:08:15.660
Fenrick's jugs, cough, cough actually come from?

146
00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:17.939
The Middle East, of course, is the genie joke.

147
00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:18.660
Middle East, yeah.

148
00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:21.480
Yeah, but the whole nations were their chess pieces and this was

149
00:08:21.480 --> 00:08:22.019
playing along.

150
00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:25.379
Well, Germany was really not the deal and nor was France.

151
00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:26.519
It was Britain and Russia.

152
00:08:26.579 --> 00:08:28.139
So this story has a lot.

153
00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:31.079
If you're sitting at schooling or reading modern history. getting

154
00:08:31.079 --> 00:08:31.319
this.

155
00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:33.179
Kids.

156
00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:37.860
Also, poles. aren't they great?

157
00:08:38.580 --> 00:08:41.100
Playing Russians.

158
00:08:41.220 --> 00:08:44.159
You know, the fellow, the fellow who was, um, someone will film me

159
00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:46.980
in who was who was playing Ace's Louvre interest, one of them.

160
00:08:47.100 --> 00:08:48.659
I might say.

161
00:08:48.720 --> 00:08:50.940
Yes, of course, it was really uncomfortable playing a Russian

162
00:08:50.940 --> 00:08:52.740
officer and...

163
00:08:52.740 --> 00:08:55.379
Because he was... more because his family had gone through such

164
00:08:55.379 --> 00:08:58.919
awful experiences under the Russians during the war.

165
00:08:58.980 --> 00:09:02.580
It just adds depth and to everybody's performance.

166
00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:05.639
No one is indifferent to their work in this.

167
00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:09.179
Even to the point of bit players like Corey Pullman, who plays

168
00:09:09.179 --> 00:09:09.840
aces.

169
00:09:09.899 --> 00:09:10.799
Well let's not go there yet.

170
00:09:10.860 --> 00:09:13.980
Why did she not have an extraordinary career after this?

171
00:09:14.039 --> 00:09:15.840
There's no one in this that doesn't glitter?

172
00:09:15.899 --> 00:09:20.220
She's amazing, and that little subplot, which is just sketched out

173
00:09:20.220 --> 00:09:22.080
in a few scenes, is incredible.

174
00:09:22.139 --> 00:09:23.399
She's really, really good.

175
00:09:23.460 --> 00:09:28.080
And, you know, we get, as we have had, I think, in pretty much

176
00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:31.679
every story with Ace, except, actually, yeah, I would say except

177
00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:32.759
Silver Nemesis.

178
00:09:32.820 --> 00:09:39.000
Pair Sophie Aldred up with another strong female actress and we

179
00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:42.899
get amazing scenes which deliver character as well as plot.

180
00:09:43.320 --> 00:09:48.120
And the scenes between Sophie and Corey.

181
00:09:48.179 --> 00:09:50.159
They're at 1st touching.

182
00:09:50.220 --> 00:09:55.320
They tell us about the morality of the 1940s when Ace blithely

183
00:09:55.320 --> 00:09:59.940
suggests that maybe Kathleen's not married and Kathleen is just

184
00:09:59.940 --> 00:10:03.840
outrage, not outraged at the thought of an unwed mother, but that

185
00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:06.059
she might be mistaken for an unwed mother.

186
00:10:06.120 --> 00:10:07.320
Beautifully done.

187
00:10:07.379 --> 00:10:09.720
To the point that Briggs was really careful talking to her because

188
00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:12.659
people were still alive then and the folk on the thing about

189
00:10:12.659 --> 00:10:15.419
getting the speech patterns right in the dialogue, right?

190
00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:20.700
This is apparently how people in 43 in Britain talked, so the

191
00:10:20.700 --> 00:10:23.759
language and stylising Miss Hardacre, of course, being one of

192
00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:27.299
those girls who'd lost her reputation.

193
00:10:27.299 --> 00:10:28.259
Which is why she's not married.

194
00:10:29.039 --> 00:10:31.860
Which is made explicitly clear in the novel.

195
00:10:32.279 --> 00:10:34.980
And when she's listening to the record and Gene and Phyllis come

196
00:10:34.980 --> 00:10:38.879
back in and kill her in the novel, she's actually thinking about

197
00:10:38.879 --> 00:10:43.679
that boy whom she really did love and care for, but because they

198
00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:47.820
did things in the wrong order and he wasn't a matron.

199
00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:52.500
And he wasn't from a nice family and couldn't offer her the life

200
00:10:52.500 --> 00:10:53.519
her parents wanted.

201
00:10:53.580 --> 00:10:57.059
She had to then go away to the country for a little bit.

202
00:10:57.360 --> 00:11:00.840
That's why she's sort of listening to that record and smiling

203
00:11:00.840 --> 00:11:05.100
wistfully because she's actually jealous of these young girls who

204
00:11:05.100 --> 00:11:10.980
can be a bit freer and talk about being Lorna Jane or Gary

205
00:11:10.980 --> 00:11:11.820
Russell.

206
00:11:12.059 --> 00:11:16.679
You know, it is, it is slightly funny that, and I thought at the

207
00:11:16.679 --> 00:11:20.039
time it was a little bit risqué because it's the 80s, you know, and

208
00:11:20.039 --> 00:11:26.580
it's very strongly implied that Aces had sex by the line, I'm not

209
00:11:26.580 --> 00:11:27.480
a little girl.

210
00:11:27.539 --> 00:11:31.860
And also in the novel, there is some joke about maiden's point, you

211
00:11:31.860 --> 00:11:34.679
know, and whether Gene Phyllis.

212
00:11:34.679 --> 00:11:35.940
How cold that water actually is?

213
00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:39.840
Well, our Jean Phyllis and Ace actually maidens at this point.

214
00:11:39.899 --> 00:11:44.700
Well, either Gene or Phyllis actually say when Ace says, oh, let's

215
00:11:44.700 --> 00:11:45.539
go to Maiden's Point.

216
00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:48.299
Well, yeah, it's Gina says that rules me and Phyllis out.

217
00:11:48.360 --> 00:11:50.700
Yeah, yeah, but I think it rules Ace out as well.

218
00:11:50.759 --> 00:11:53.279
And then the idea that in Ace's peer group.

219
00:11:53.340 --> 00:11:54.840
She doesn't actually know anyone who's married.

220
00:11:54.899 --> 00:11:58.620
She's sort of slightly weirded out by the fact that Kathleen is

221
00:11:58.620 --> 00:12:02.460
married and she just assumes, oh, well, you know, is it your

222
00:12:02.460 --> 00:12:02.940
boyfriend?

223
00:12:03.059 --> 00:12:06.240
And she thinks about not being married either.

224
00:12:06.299 --> 00:12:09.059
I actually thought that that was a little bit risque even for sort

225
00:12:09.059 --> 00:12:15.299
of the late 1980s in a kid's show to kind of strongly imply all of

226
00:12:15.299 --> 00:12:16.080
that sort of stuff.

227
00:12:16.139 --> 00:12:18.539
And it's certainly something that we would never have dreamed of

228
00:12:18.539 --> 00:12:21.000
doing, you know, 10 years earlier on Doctor Who.

229
00:12:21.059 --> 00:12:24.059
That's the lovely thing. meant for family viewing.

230
00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:27.360
And that's why it's so strong, has been so strong in the

231
00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:27.840
comeback.

232
00:12:28.019 --> 00:12:31.740
Ah, can you imagine if this had just got its publicity?

233
00:12:31.860 --> 00:12:33.539
I don't think it would ever have been taken off there.

234
00:12:33.659 --> 00:12:34.679
No, absolutely not.

235
00:12:34.740 --> 00:12:36.539
You know, because of this season.

236
00:12:36.600 --> 00:12:40.919
Season 24 averaged just over 4000000 season 25 averaged just over

237
00:12:40.919 --> 00:12:44.039
5 million. was that 6000000 by the end of the season.

238
00:12:44.100 --> 00:12:47.700
This season, of course, we discussed a couple of weeks ago, started

239
00:12:47.700 --> 00:12:49.200
out at 3 million.

240
00:12:49.259 --> 00:12:53.460
At this point, it had grown, and this story averages over 4000000

241
00:12:53.460 --> 00:12:53.879
viewers.

242
00:12:53.940 --> 00:12:58.080
So we're back up to season 24 levels, opposite Coronation Street

243
00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:00.360
with almost no publicity.

244
00:13:00.419 --> 00:13:01.799
Not bad.

245
00:13:01.860 --> 00:13:02.759
Not bad at all.

246
00:13:02.820 --> 00:13:03.840
Not bad.

247
00:13:03.899 --> 00:13:04.799
There's so much in this.

248
00:13:04.980 --> 00:13:10.379
Gamesmanship, of course, the history of computing, unmarried

249
00:13:10.379 --> 00:13:14.580
motherness, drawing on the backs of your legs, something for

250
00:13:14.580 --> 00:13:15.360
everyone, isn't it?

251
00:13:15.419 --> 00:13:17.940
Homosexuality and chemical castration.

252
00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:18.659
Yes.

253
00:13:18.659 --> 00:13:24.120
And Ian Briggs has explicitly confirmed that Judson's paralysis

254
00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:29.279
and paraplegia was a metaphor for Turing's homosexuality.

255
00:13:29.399 --> 00:13:33.960
Now, for those of you who don't know, of course, highly

256
00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:37.139
recommended the imitation game with Benedict Cumberbatch.

257
00:13:37.259 --> 00:13:41.100
And even better one, and what this was based on was at the time

258
00:13:41.100 --> 00:13:44.700
was Andrew Hodges, Alan Turing the Enigma.

259
00:13:44.759 --> 00:13:48.120
But, you know, during at the time in the 80s, where he was

260
00:13:48.120 --> 00:13:50.580
actually quite more known to us who were just starting university

261
00:13:50.580 --> 00:13:55.620
because he was figuring in a lot of, um, you know, amateur

262
00:13:55.620 --> 00:13:59.399
productions and plays and and writing as the go-to figure in the

263
00:13:59.399 --> 00:14:05.279
pre-AZT days of HIV recognition and because he saved the empire in

264
00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:05.759
many ways.

265
00:14:05.820 --> 00:14:08.340
We can get onto that and what is actually happening with the

266
00:14:08.340 --> 00:14:08.879
computers.

267
00:14:08.940 --> 00:14:13.679
So he, he, um, he kind of codefines this, this idea of the touring

268
00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:17.220
machine, which is capable of doing all sorts of calculations that

269
00:14:17.220 --> 00:14:20.639
appear quite complex and that you would think actually needed a

270
00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:22.139
conscious mind behind them.

271
00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:26.700
But it is just a machine that consumes input, transforms it, and

272
00:14:26.700 --> 00:14:28.139
then does output.

273
00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:30.360
It's a very simple mechanical device.

274
00:14:30.419 --> 00:14:33.899
And that's what computers are But Turing took it to another

275
00:14:33.899 --> 00:14:34.259
level.

276
00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:37.080
Do you know who his sources were and who he wrote as his

277
00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:38.039
inspirations?

278
00:14:38.100 --> 00:14:42.000
Girdle, as in Girdle Esher Bach, and Lewis Carroll.

279
00:14:42.059 --> 00:14:46.139
Turing actually cites Lewis Carroll in his writing because no, not

280
00:14:46.139 --> 00:14:48.360
through his fiction, but for his symbolic logic work.

281
00:14:48.419 --> 00:14:51.960
Which, of course, plays into his fiction when characters say

282
00:14:51.960 --> 00:14:56.639
things like this word means whatever I say it means, which is very

283
00:14:56.639 --> 00:14:57.480
much a coding idea.

284
00:14:57.539 --> 00:14:59.340
Of Mrs. Thatcher.

285
00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:06.600
I mean, Ian Briggs has gone as far to say that, as far as he's

286
00:15:06.600 --> 00:15:10.379
concerned, from a writing point of view, Millington and Judson had

287
00:15:10.379 --> 00:15:11.580
had an affair.

288
00:15:11.639 --> 00:15:12.659
Oh, very much so.

289
00:15:12.720 --> 00:15:17.700
Yeah, and he's like, that's what I wrote, that's what was played.

290
00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:21.659
Of course, we couldn't say it because of Mrs. Thatcher.

291
00:15:21.659 --> 00:15:24.360
And because it's 19, and because it's 1989.

292
00:15:24.539 --> 00:15:25.980
It's in the novel.

293
00:15:26.039 --> 00:15:26.759
It's in the novel.

294
00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:31.139
And it is strongly implied in that scene where it's quite clear

295
00:15:31.139 --> 00:15:37.379
that Millington is responsible for the injury that put Judson in

296
00:15:37.379 --> 00:15:37.860
the wheelchair.

297
00:15:37.980 --> 00:15:41.519
And it's out of jealousy because Johnson was talking to another

298
00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:45.059
boy on the rugby field and Millington tackles him too hard.

299
00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:47.940
Yeah, it's in the novel.

300
00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:49.080
That's what happens.

301
00:15:49.139 --> 00:15:53.519
For listeners who may not know the full story of Alan Turing.

302
00:15:53.580 --> 00:15:55.440
I mean, I'll sum it up very briefly.

303
00:15:55.500 --> 00:15:59.399
He was, of course, one of the fathers of modern computing, but

304
00:15:59.399 --> 00:16:03.419
also built the Enigma decoder, which here is instead the ultimate

305
00:16:03.419 --> 00:16:06.419
decoder, which broke the German cyphers.

306
00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:11.100
He was also homosexual and of course closeted in the 1940s.

307
00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:17.519
He was found out after the war and given the option, I believe, of

308
00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:19.620
imprisonment or chemical castration.

309
00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:21.539
Do you know how he was found out?

310
00:16:21.659 --> 00:16:23.399
He was robbed.

311
00:16:23.460 --> 00:16:26.940
He was robbed by, well, just trade had been several times.

312
00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:28.740
Of course, you know, because blackmail was the industry.

313
00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:31.679
He just rang the local police and said, oh, I think some things

314
00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:32.340
have gone missing.

315
00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:35.399
And being lovely and vague, and in his own head, and they came

316
00:16:35.399 --> 00:16:35.759
over.

317
00:16:35.820 --> 00:16:37.259
One of the cops is very decent.

318
00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:39.360
Another one started debating him.

319
00:16:39.419 --> 00:16:40.919
And of course, he was honest.

320
00:16:40.980 --> 00:16:43.500
Oh, yes, well, he just left and I, no, I don't know who he was.

321
00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:46.440
And then, of course, they got him for the homosexuality.

322
00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:49.200
It had been known by the department and, of course, ignored

323
00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:50.580
because they were educated people.

324
00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:55.740
But no, it was this one bastardy cop that decided, oh, yes, I can

325
00:16:55.740 --> 00:17:00.659
see what's going on and used and abused the laxity of the laws to

326
00:17:00.659 --> 00:17:01.980
do what they did to this man.

327
00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:04.140
Yeah, the chemical castration.

328
00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:07.799
The idea was rob him of his libido so he won't have these

329
00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:11.039
libidinous thoughts for men and he killed himself.

330
00:17:11.099 --> 00:17:15.059
Yeah, but it also leads to a lot of major organ disfunction.

331
00:17:15.059 --> 00:17:16.380
Oh, no.

332
00:17:16.380 --> 00:17:18.660
It was a crippling series of treatments.

333
00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:19.440
Yeah, yeah.

334
00:17:19.500 --> 00:17:22.079
No, it's not just, you know, you don't feel up to it tonight

335
00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:23.279
anymore.

336
00:17:23.339 --> 00:17:26.279
It was like there were physical changes and things.

337
00:17:26.339 --> 00:17:28.380
I mean, it was really, really quite horrific.

338
00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:31.920
And there was a few years ago, a move to get the British

339
00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:36.059
Parliament, I think, to pardon touring posthumously.

340
00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:39.420
But even that's unsatisfactory because the whole idea that the

341
00:17:39.420 --> 00:17:44.819
state's role is to enforce heterosexuality on the populace is just

342
00:17:44.819 --> 00:17:46.500
outrageous.

343
00:17:47.940 --> 00:17:49.500
Yeah, the pardon is disgusting.

344
00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:51.839
That's right, because he didn't actually do anything wrong.

345
00:17:51.900 --> 00:17:55.259
And he was a hero.

346
00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:59.099
Anthony Beaver sights him as being one of the major reason, but

347
00:17:59.099 --> 00:18:01.500
that turning point just at that time.

348
00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:05.940
And they've worked out once Monty had had his success in the

349
00:18:05.940 --> 00:18:06.359
desert.

350
00:18:06.420 --> 00:18:07.619
They worked out later in that year.

351
00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:10.859
I think it was 43 that the coats had been cracked, but there were

352
00:18:10.859 --> 00:18:12.660
6 months where he turned it around.

353
00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:14.519
His discoveries really made it work.

354
00:18:14.579 --> 00:18:16.140
And computing in general.

355
00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:19.619
I mean, we wouldn't have, you know, the theoretical basis of

356
00:18:19.619 --> 00:18:22.440
computing and that idea of the touring machine.

357
00:18:22.500 --> 00:18:26.759
Well, he was also using von Neumann's 1928 theories, you know, of

358
00:18:26.759 --> 00:18:29.339
gamesmanship, which we talked about, which, of course, are in this

359
00:18:29.339 --> 00:18:30.119
script.

360
00:18:30.180 --> 00:18:31.440
There's a lot going on.

361
00:18:31.619 --> 00:18:36.059
I mean, there is a reference explicitly to the prisoner's

362
00:18:36.059 --> 00:18:36.539
dilemma.

363
00:18:36.599 --> 00:18:37.079
Yes.

364
00:18:37.140 --> 00:18:37.859
You know what that is?

365
00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:42.599
that's when a cop takes the 2 suspects into separate cells and

366
00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:44.519
says, okay, we'll broker a deal with you.

367
00:18:44.579 --> 00:18:49.019
If you grasp on the other bloke, I'll lessen your sentence.

368
00:18:49.079 --> 00:18:51.299
And of course, the idea is that it's reduced down.

369
00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:54.960
That's John Nash, as in the subject of a beautiful mind.

370
00:18:55.019 --> 00:18:56.160
You know, that one.

371
00:18:56.220 --> 00:19:00.299
Nash is actually a psychopathic schizophrenic.

372
00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:02.579
And he also...

373
00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:03.299
Still alive?

374
00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:04.319
A Doctor Who fan.

375
00:19:04.380 --> 00:19:06.180
John Nash is a Doctor Who fan.

376
00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:07.380
And it's been lampooned.

377
00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:11.099
So, that the Princeton dilemma thing has been lamping because and

378
00:19:11.099 --> 00:19:14.279
shot down because it only works if you've got 2 sociopaths.

379
00:19:14.339 --> 00:19:18.059
Well, it's a little bit different from that because what you do

380
00:19:18.059 --> 00:19:21.599
with game theory is that you have a iterated prisoner's dilemma

381
00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:24.480
where you have a past and a future.

382
00:19:24.539 --> 00:19:29.039
You know, the way the prisoner's dilemma is set up is that there

383
00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:30.000
are 2 prisoners.

384
00:19:30.059 --> 00:19:34.259
If one of them defects, they call it and sort of says the other

385
00:19:34.259 --> 00:19:36.779
one is guilty, turns the other one in, they get a reduced

386
00:19:36.779 --> 00:19:37.319
sentence.

387
00:19:37.319 --> 00:19:41.339
If both of them do it though, then they're in sort of really

388
00:19:41.339 --> 00:19:42.299
serious trouble.

389
00:19:42.299 --> 00:19:46.740
Both of them refuse to, if both of them refuse to cooperate

390
00:19:46.740 --> 00:19:47.579
they'll get off lightly.

391
00:19:47.640 --> 00:19:51.240
But because they can't hear each other, you can't guarantee that

392
00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:54.420
the other person's not going to defect on you.

393
00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:59.279
And so even though the best outcome for everyone is that neither

394
00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:02.039
of you defect, because that's unenforceable.

395
00:20:02.099 --> 00:20:04.319
In fact, you kind of have to defect.

396
00:20:04.380 --> 00:20:08.220
But once you reiterate it, once you meet one another again and

397
00:20:08.220 --> 00:20:10.019
again and again, do you know what I mean?

398
00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:13.859
Then you've got the prospect of revenge and payback and gratitude

399
00:20:13.859 --> 00:20:17.160
and all of those kinds of things, and you start to be able to

400
00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:21.180
model, uh, you know, like animal behaviour in a sort of social

401
00:20:21.180 --> 00:20:26.039
context because reiterating the prisoner's dilemma allows there to

402
00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:28.980
be sort of past and future and stuff like that.

403
00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:33.539
So it's a kind of thought technology that enables us to think

404
00:20:33.539 --> 00:20:37.319
about how kind of social animals interact with one another.

405
00:20:37.380 --> 00:20:39.420
So anyway, it's a theme.

406
00:20:39.539 --> 00:20:40.259
That's exactly right.

407
00:20:40.380 --> 00:20:42.779
So it's a flip-flop thingy.

408
00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:43.920
It's a flip-flop thingy.

409
00:20:43.980 --> 00:20:48.960
In a story which is about, you know, human evil, the prisoner's

410
00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:53.460
dilemma, which is like an atom of human behaviour is quite a good

411
00:20:53.460 --> 00:20:54.720
thing to reference, I think.

412
00:20:54.960 --> 00:20:59.039
On the topic of human evil, many of the main characters in the

413
00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:03.420
story have had their bloodlines touched by Fenrick.

414
00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:07.799
So Captain Soren, Commander Millington, Dr. Judson, um, and

415
00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:09.660
Kathleen and Ace, of course.

416
00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:13.980
And so the implication there is, of course, you know, Millington

417
00:21:13.980 --> 00:21:15.119
is evil.

418
00:21:15.180 --> 00:21:19.559
Millington is planning to indiscriminately kill with chemical

419
00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:20.160
weapons.

420
00:21:20.220 --> 00:21:23.519
You know, there's no doubt about that and all he cares about is

421
00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:24.180
winning the war.

422
00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:28.500
The Russian soldiers who are guarding the doctor and ace as they

423
00:21:28.500 --> 00:21:31.319
come out of the tunnel at one point, 1000000s and seals them in

424
00:21:31.319 --> 00:21:33.660
despite the fact there would have been plenty of time for them to

425
00:21:33.660 --> 00:21:36.539
get out and still steal the hemovores in, but he's like, no, I've

426
00:21:36.539 --> 00:21:37.019
got what I want.

427
00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:38.400
I've got what's important.

428
00:21:38.460 --> 00:21:42.240
Soren and Judson, of course, become possessed by Fenrick and

429
00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:42.839
become evil.

430
00:21:42.900 --> 00:21:48.720
And Ace is kind of tempted into evil several times.

431
00:21:48.779 --> 00:21:52.859
So by Gene and Phyllis, for instance, by Fenrick at the end

432
00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:54.779
different forms of evil rules.

433
00:21:54.839 --> 00:21:56.579
But just she...

434
00:21:56.640 --> 00:22:00.059
She also inadvertently helps Fenwick twice.

435
00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:05.579
Like, by telling Judson that the final inscription is a computer

436
00:22:05.579 --> 00:22:07.559
program is a logic diagram.

437
00:22:07.619 --> 00:22:09.839
The greatest sin is pride, isn't it?

438
00:22:09.900 --> 00:22:13.200
She actually has Pertwe's pride in knowledge of itself.

439
00:22:13.319 --> 00:22:14.819
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

440
00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:18.839
Have halftime score, you know, pair of Vale, several million, you

441
00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:20.220
know, rest of the universe nil.

442
00:22:20.279 --> 00:22:23.160
And then, of course, she explains to Soren how to defeat the chess

443
00:22:23.160 --> 00:22:23.700
game.

444
00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:26.880
But it's also the doctor's pride.

445
00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:29.819
Because the doctor doesn't think that anyone could possibly

446
00:22:29.819 --> 00:22:32.700
understand what his plan is, so he doesn't explain it to anyone.

447
00:22:32.819 --> 00:22:38.339
Because I can't play this man. games, he said, in Ghost Life.

448
00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:41.460
Because, of course, the doctor later says, so long as Johnson

449
00:22:41.460 --> 00:22:44.339
doesn't realise that the final description's a commuter program

450
00:22:44.339 --> 00:22:45.660
and A says, you should have told me.

451
00:22:45.660 --> 00:22:51.180
And then if he had told her what the chess move was, but said

452
00:22:51.180 --> 00:22:53.519
don't tell anyone, anyone can be Fenrick.

453
00:22:53.579 --> 00:22:54.839
Fenrick can possess people.

454
00:22:54.900 --> 00:22:58.619
She wouldn't have run in and said, hey, Soren, I know what the

455
00:22:58.619 --> 00:23:01.319
solution is because even if Fenrick's not Soren at that point.

456
00:23:01.380 --> 00:23:03.000
He could still be around, you know.

457
00:23:03.180 --> 00:23:06.599
As much as the doctor has been training ace.

458
00:23:06.660 --> 00:23:11.519
There is still a lack of respect for her own intelligence and

459
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:12.180
intuition.

460
00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:14.519
Like when she says I can distract the guard.

461
00:23:14.579 --> 00:23:18.839
He's actually really dismissive that she could possibly help in

462
00:23:18.839 --> 00:23:19.440
this situation.

463
00:23:19.500 --> 00:23:20.759
He's just, oh, how?

464
00:23:20.819 --> 00:23:24.779
Is that not just being 900 years old and having someone with you

465
00:23:24.779 --> 00:23:27.299
who is really a speck of life's distance?

466
00:23:27.420 --> 00:23:29.940
I think he's forgotten about sex.

467
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:38.160
But also, there has to come a time when there is an experiential

468
00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:42.420
gap in a relationship or friendship where you kind of think, okay

469
00:23:42.420 --> 00:23:46.079
maybe this person is as experienced or as knowledgable as I am, but

470
00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:48.539
I'm choosing to be with them and I have to trust them.

471
00:23:48.599 --> 00:23:55.200
I have to trust that when they say to me, I can do something that

472
00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:59.759
they can do it. you know, and I think a big problem in this story

473
00:23:59.759 --> 00:24:04.619
and it is referred to and pointed out in the plot, is that the

474
00:24:04.619 --> 00:24:07.559
doctor isn't trusting Ace with his plans.

475
00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:10.920
And we discussed it last week with Ghostlight, how he just kind of

476
00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:14.519
throws her into this house, knowing it disturbs her rather than

477
00:24:14.519 --> 00:24:16.740
saying, we're going to go back to that place and we're going to

478
00:24:16.740 --> 00:24:18.059
find out what's gone wrong.

479
00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:20.700
Same with Greater Show in the Galaxy.

480
00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:22.920
Like the doctor's like, oh, I've heard things about the psychic

481
00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:23.400
circus.

482
00:24:23.460 --> 00:24:24.119
I hate clowns.

483
00:24:24.180 --> 00:24:25.619
Okay, we're definitely going now.

484
00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:29.160
I've learned to pick my mouth.

485
00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:30.180
They sound great.

486
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:31.140
Oh, okay.

487
00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:32.220
Well, someone else then.

488
00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:35.279
It's like, it's like, you know what I really hate, doctor?

489
00:24:35.339 --> 00:24:36.599
I really hate cake.

490
00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:42.539
Banana lounges and long cocktails with fruit and then they terrify

491
00:24:42.539 --> 00:24:42.720
me.

492
00:24:42.779 --> 00:24:45.480
I really hate Spanish men.

493
00:24:46.140 --> 00:24:48.900
You know what I really hate, doctor.

494
00:24:49.019 --> 00:24:51.839
Firefighters in cybersuits.

495
00:24:51.900 --> 00:24:54.059
Let's not let's not go near any of those.

496
00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:58.980
It's amazing you didn't start gaming like that.

497
00:24:59.579 --> 00:25:04.019
This all comes to a head because she calls him out on it in the

498
00:25:04.019 --> 00:25:06.059
2nd last story of the classic series.

499
00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:09.480
She actually rounds on him and yells at him and says you're

500
00:25:09.480 --> 00:25:10.559
treating me like a fool.

501
00:25:10.619 --> 00:25:15.420
You knew it was a, and she, you know, she says when she finds out

502
00:25:15.420 --> 00:25:19.740
that she shouldn't have told Judson about the computer program.

503
00:25:19.799 --> 00:25:21.240
She says, why didn't you tell me?

504
00:25:21.299 --> 00:25:23.220
And then in this speech.

505
00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:27.059
It's like, you knew about this, you didn't tell me, you know, you

506
00:25:27.059 --> 00:25:31.140
don't respect me, you can't be bothered to include me in your

507
00:25:31.140 --> 00:25:31.680
plans.

508
00:25:31.740 --> 00:25:32.339
You know?

509
00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:37.200
Yeah, and the amazing thing is, unlike, say, later on, sometimes

510
00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:40.200
Rose Tyler, who makes it all about, you didn't, you know, you

511
00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:41.400
didn't tell me what about me.

512
00:25:41.460 --> 00:25:44.700
A says you can't be bothered telling anyone.

513
00:25:44.759 --> 00:25:47.039
You know, she's not just fighting for herself there.

514
00:25:47.099 --> 00:25:49.799
She's fighting for the people who are caught in the crossfire of

515
00:25:49.799 --> 00:25:50.039
this.

516
00:25:50.099 --> 00:25:53.819
And it's another electric scene between the 2 of them because

517
00:25:53.819 --> 00:25:55.619
she's screaming in his face.

518
00:25:55.619 --> 00:25:59.759
And I know some people have criticised Sylvester for the evil

519
00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:02.279
since the dawn of time speech, but I think it really gets across

520
00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:05.880
that he's talking about a concept that cannot be adequately

521
00:26:05.880 --> 00:26:07.019
described in words.

522
00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:12.059
He's searching for the way to describe it and his despair when he

523
00:26:12.059 --> 00:26:16.619
says somehow the evil force survives because the implication is

524
00:26:16.619 --> 00:26:19.859
there that the good force hasn't survived in the same way.

525
00:26:20.039 --> 00:26:23.819
And I think like to think it's just dispersed, like all the

526
00:26:23.819 --> 00:26:24.420
other...

527
00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:26.759
Yeah, yeah. whereas the evil has kind of stayed together.

528
00:26:26.819 --> 00:26:30.420
But he's really sad, like the way he chooses to play it.

529
00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:34.019
And I've said, like I don't think Sylvester's very convincing at

530
00:26:34.019 --> 00:26:34.859
playing anger.

531
00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:37.980
And I do think that there are bits of that scene that aren't that

532
00:26:37.980 --> 00:26:38.519
great.

533
00:26:38.579 --> 00:26:39.960
He's been a lot better as he's gone on.

534
00:26:40.019 --> 00:26:45.180
And certainly there's an admixture of sadness in the way he plays

535
00:26:45.180 --> 00:26:47.039
that scene and I like that a great deal.

536
00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:50.880
Someone we haven't mentioned, of course, you know, we've talked

537
00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:52.859
about Dinsdale, Landon, Dr. Johnson.

538
00:26:52.920 --> 00:26:53.700
Pig in the middle.

539
00:26:53.819 --> 00:26:55.440
And Reed.

540
00:26:55.500 --> 00:26:56.099
Sorry.

541
00:26:56.099 --> 00:26:56.880
Anne Reed.

542
00:26:56.940 --> 00:26:58.259
No, we didn't call her pig in the middle.

543
00:26:58.319 --> 00:26:59.700
It was a series that Landon did.

544
00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:01.799
He was kind of known as a one note performer.

545
00:27:01.859 --> 00:27:06.900
I think he's really top notch as it was when he's in the chair, but

546
00:27:06.900 --> 00:27:10.259
once he stands up and plays Fenrick, he really nails this.

547
00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:15.240
You know, part of the thing is that he hated the contact lenses

548
00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:17.039
and he found them really off putting.

549
00:27:17.099 --> 00:27:22.019
And so you can see Fenrick blinking all the time. because he's

550
00:27:22.019 --> 00:27:24.119
really worried about these contact lenses.

551
00:27:24.180 --> 00:27:27.599
And of course, at the very end, he's gone blind, you know, because

552
00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:31.259
he can't cope with that chess game that they have.

553
00:27:31.319 --> 00:27:35.220
And I think he's really terrific and he's got those terrifying

554
00:27:35.220 --> 00:27:39.059
capped teeth or whatever the hell they are that makes his smile

555
00:27:39.059 --> 00:27:39.779
really scary.

556
00:27:40.259 --> 00:27:43.619
And don't interrupt me while I'm eulogising.

557
00:27:43.680 --> 00:27:49.500
Oh, I just love the idea that Dr. Judson seems to somewhat still

558
00:27:49.500 --> 00:27:53.880
be in there because when he confronts Crane, Fenrick says you've

559
00:27:53.880 --> 00:27:59.700
always been treating me like a child, but then changes back to, I

560
00:27:59.700 --> 00:28:02.039
think Dr. Judson would have wanted this.

561
00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:06.900
Yeah, it's the only death that he really seems to take a great

562
00:28:06.900 --> 00:28:08.579
deal of pleasure in.

563
00:28:08.700 --> 00:28:12.720
I do like the line, you know, when it comes to death. quantities

564
00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:15.119
so much more satisfying than quality.

565
00:28:15.180 --> 00:28:17.460
Oh my god, is Eric sane?

566
00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:18.839
I got the same haircut.

567
00:28:19.619 --> 00:28:21.539
The whole time.

568
00:28:21.779 --> 00:28:24.539
You know, his plan is to kill everyone.

569
00:28:24.599 --> 00:28:29.099
You know, we've all been there. there now.

570
00:28:31.500 --> 00:28:36.059
And of course, oh, no, let's talk more about Anne Reid.

571
00:28:36.119 --> 00:28:37.559
Because, of course, talk about Anne Reed.

572
00:28:37.619 --> 00:28:38.819
She is spectacular.

573
00:28:38.940 --> 00:28:39.720
We own her.

574
00:28:39.779 --> 00:28:43.740
She's really good Yeah, and then she comes back as a very own kind

575
00:28:43.740 --> 00:28:47.039
of vampire, of course, in Smith and Jones.

576
00:28:47.099 --> 00:28:47.940
It's wonderful.

577
00:28:48.059 --> 00:28:49.019
She's so tremendous.

578
00:28:49.079 --> 00:28:53.039
She really is so such a underrated episode, is it?

579
00:28:53.099 --> 00:28:53.579
Yeah.

580
00:28:53.640 --> 00:28:57.839
She and Alfred Lynch's Millington and Dinsdale landed have one of

581
00:28:57.839 --> 00:29:03.119
the best three-way scenes of the 80s for me, which is some...

582
00:29:03.900 --> 00:29:06.539
I'm curious as to where this is going.

583
00:29:06.599 --> 00:29:08.819
Some respect for the wheelchair, please.

584
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:09.900
He's an invalid.

585
00:29:09.960 --> 00:29:13.200
And Landon responds, I'm not an invalid.

586
00:29:13.259 --> 00:29:13.859
I a cripple.

587
00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:17.759
I'm also a genius, so shut up a pair of you, which I think is a

588
00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:18.539
wonderful lie.

589
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:24.480
And yeah, just kind of emphasises Johnson's frustration at the

590
00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:28.019
fact that, okay, yeah, my legs don't work, but I am still the

591
00:29:28.019 --> 00:29:31.799
smartest man in the nearest 50 miles, so shut up.

592
00:29:31.980 --> 00:29:35.940
But he's constantly being hauled around and patronised and

593
00:29:35.940 --> 00:29:36.359
things.

594
00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:38.220
Yeah, yeah, yeah. and reads character.

595
00:29:38.279 --> 00:29:40.380
You know, especially language professor.

596
00:29:40.440 --> 00:29:41.640
There's a layer depressant.

597
00:29:41.940 --> 00:29:43.559
And the mother?

598
00:29:43.619 --> 00:29:46.500
She was Daniel Craig's love interest.

599
00:29:46.559 --> 00:29:47.759
Oh goodness.

600
00:29:47.819 --> 00:29:50.460
No, the age difference was the plot point.

601
00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:53.160
Yes, and the paper straws.

602
00:29:53.220 --> 00:29:53.519
Yeah.

603
00:29:54.359 --> 00:29:58.019
Whereas now Daniel Craig gets asked what it's like acting with an

604
00:29:58.019 --> 00:30:03.059
older woman who is 3 years older than him and he takes them to

605
00:30:03.059 --> 00:30:04.559
bloody task on it.

606
00:30:04.619 --> 00:30:05.759
What do you mean by older?

607
00:30:05.819 --> 00:30:07.140
I'm only 3 years younger.

608
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:09.000
Are you saying that because she's a woman?

609
00:30:09.059 --> 00:30:10.200
Well, yes.

610
00:30:10.259 --> 00:30:11.880
In exactly that voice?

611
00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:17.759
Daniel Craig is Lady Bracknell.

612
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:21.960
So what do we think of Millington?

613
00:30:22.019 --> 00:30:24.059
Alfred Very, very good.

614
00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:26.759
And the reason it seems kind of odd and not quite there.

615
00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:27.779
It is odd.

616
00:30:27.779 --> 00:30:30.240
And the one clashing thing is the moustache because that was

617
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:31.259
against naval regulations.

618
00:30:31.319 --> 00:30:34.019
You actually weren't allowed to sport a moustache if you were in

619
00:30:34.019 --> 00:30:34.440
the Navy.

620
00:30:34.500 --> 00:30:35.759
You could have a beard.

621
00:30:35.819 --> 00:30:37.920
Yeah, yeah, no facial hair.

622
00:30:37.980 --> 00:30:39.900
But it's because he was playing Hitler.

623
00:30:39.960 --> 00:30:41.400
And they were doing this.

624
00:30:41.460 --> 00:30:45.119
This is actually how they were cracking the codes before the

625
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:48.660
enigma, which took a long time coming, Colossus, I should say

626
00:30:48.660 --> 00:30:51.779
which was before that. took a long time coming and actually

627
00:30:51.779 --> 00:30:52.380
getting onto it.

628
00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:55.380
No, they were doing it by supposition.

629
00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:58.319
And by playing as the enemy.

630
00:30:58.380 --> 00:30:59.940
To think is the Germans thing.

631
00:31:00.059 --> 00:31:01.380
And they were going quite mad doing it.

632
00:31:01.440 --> 00:31:02.339
Yeah of course.

633
00:31:02.700 --> 00:31:07.619
An interesting point I found out during the week about Nazism in

634
00:31:07.619 --> 00:31:08.279
popular culture.

635
00:31:08.339 --> 00:31:10.259
There's a lot of it.

636
00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:11.400
Unfortunately.

637
00:31:11.460 --> 00:31:15.000
A few years after this, a very famous video game was made called

638
00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:21.660
Wolfenstein 3D, which was one of the 1st really popular mainstream

639
00:31:21.660 --> 00:31:23.640
1st person shooting games.

640
00:31:23.700 --> 00:31:27.839
And so you were an American soldier trapped in a Nazi fortress

641
00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:28.619
trying to escape.

642
00:31:28.980 --> 00:31:33.539
The original game manual didn't use the word Nazi.

643
00:31:33.660 --> 00:31:35.400
It used the word Germans.

644
00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:42.299
And one of the programmers said, I had to spend an hour explaining

645
00:31:42.299 --> 00:31:47.400
to the team that not all Germans were Nazis. 2 words were not

646
00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:48.660
interchangeable.

647
00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:51.839
They were at the time, but yes.

648
00:31:51.900 --> 00:31:55.319
Well, the point he was trying to make was, okay, yes, everyone in

649
00:31:55.319 --> 00:31:58.079
German, it was on the Nazi side, if you like, but there was

650
00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:00.059
resistance even within Germany.

651
00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:02.759
And if you just say Nazi equals German.

652
00:32:02.819 --> 00:32:05.579
Even the Nazis were not all Nazis.

653
00:32:05.640 --> 00:32:10.140
Look at Rudolph Hess would very much oppose to Hitler's programmer

654
00:32:10.140 --> 00:32:13.859
entity to the other officers' programs. who can say I was going

655
00:32:13.859 --> 00:32:16.200
look, we don't know their position on genocide, but it seemed to

656
00:32:16.200 --> 00:32:19.680
be, it seemed to have a bit of momentum. at the time.

657
00:32:19.740 --> 00:32:20.279
Yes.

658
00:32:20.339 --> 00:32:21.660
But that's the thing.

659
00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:24.660
Ace walks into Millington's office. office and says immediately, oh

660
00:32:24.660 --> 00:32:28.019
you know, he's secretly a Nazi and the doctor's like, no, he's

661
00:32:28.019 --> 00:32:32.039
just pretending to be one to, but it's called acting, dear.

662
00:32:32.099 --> 00:32:34.859
Yeah, you look at Indiana Jones.

663
00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:36.839
It's just like, yep, Nazis are villains.

664
00:32:36.900 --> 00:32:42.900
And Nazis are villains, but reducing them to just a villain and

665
00:32:42.900 --> 00:32:48.660
often a comic villain in popular culture is part of what has led

666
00:32:48.660 --> 00:32:53.460
to the softening of how we perceive Nazism to do.

667
00:32:53.460 --> 00:32:57.779
Oh, the softening and the welcoming of how we see fascism now.

668
00:32:57.839 --> 00:33:00.779
Well, I think we seem to be quite comfortable with it as a culture

669
00:33:00.779 --> 00:33:01.200
don't we?

670
00:33:01.259 --> 00:33:04.140
Well, I mean, there's enough time to forget.

671
00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:09.240
You know, like, I think that Doctor Who did well to avoid having

672
00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:10.259
actual Nazis.

673
00:33:10.380 --> 00:33:16.079
I mean, we had the comedy stupid Nazis in Sylvan Nemesis, but they

674
00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:17.940
weren't World War II.

675
00:33:18.059 --> 00:33:19.980
No, and let's not go to Let's kill Hitler.

676
00:33:20.039 --> 00:33:21.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

677
00:33:23.339 --> 00:33:24.779
Exactly.

678
00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:26.880
What were they thinking?

679
00:33:26.940 --> 00:33:30.660
I think that was just Moffatt's exhaustion writ large.

680
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:31.859
I should say, yeah.

681
00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:34.740
That's what I was saying earlier with, you know, if they had have

682
00:33:34.740 --> 00:33:39.180
had the Nazis in this story, It would have been impossible to

683
00:33:39.180 --> 00:33:43.380
present them in any other way than just rent a crowd villainy when

684
00:33:43.380 --> 00:33:52.500
the actual horror. of Nazism needs to be better explored.

685
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:57.599
And it's actually, Terrence Dix manages to do that in Timeworm

686
00:33:57.599 --> 00:34:01.380
Exodus, you know, he really shows what it's like under Nazi

687
00:34:01.380 --> 00:34:03.599
occupation. good little scorcher of a book, isn't it?

688
00:34:03.660 --> 00:34:04.500
well, yeah.

689
00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:06.359
I just don't think you can do it on television.

690
00:34:06.420 --> 00:34:08.039
No, I just think it can't be done.

691
00:34:08.099 --> 00:34:10.619
Unless you're doing hello, hello.

692
00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:11.460
Yeah, yeah.

693
00:34:11.519 --> 00:34:15.300
But I mean, Doctor Who is not that kind of programmed.

694
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:17.280
Yeah, when it tries to be, it doesn't get there.

695
00:34:17.340 --> 00:34:18.599
No, that's right.

696
00:34:18.659 --> 00:34:20.460
Let's kill Hitler.

697
00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:24.000
But, you know, one week it's robot lizards and the next week it's

698
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:24.539
Nazis.

699
00:34:24.599 --> 00:34:26.099
I mean we just can't possibly do that.

700
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:31.679
Whereas when it has characters standing in for fascists like the

701
00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:33.659
regime on Terra Alpha.

702
00:34:33.719 --> 00:34:36.539
Because it's somewhat removed from reality, it actually becomes a

703
00:34:36.539 --> 00:34:38.880
better commentary than if you just had fascists.

704
00:34:38.940 --> 00:34:41.699
Because it's the triumph of the tropes, isn't it?

705
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:42.900
Yeah.

706
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:47.820
It's really, you know, really, we don't have Lenny Reef and start

707
00:34:47.820 --> 00:34:49.019
working on the show.

708
00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:55.500
So you can't actually venerate or elevate fascism too, to its true

709
00:34:55.500 --> 00:34:59.280
its true power, which is, I don't even comfortable saying this.

710
00:34:59.340 --> 00:35:00.900
It's purist aestheticism.

711
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:05.400
Fascism is, if you like, is an ideal, no less powerful than the

712
00:35:05.400 --> 00:35:08.760
opus day notions in high Catholicism.

713
00:35:08.820 --> 00:35:12.960
It's about the purity of a concept, and they both use books of

714
00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:15.900
Zion as basis for some of their ideologies.

715
00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:22.199
We're talking about the absolute, um, sinequine on of destiny of

716
00:35:22.199 --> 00:35:26.579
truth, of vision, of, it's quite shiny and spectacular to people

717
00:35:26.579 --> 00:35:31.260
who are prone to that sort of thing, you know, who tend to support

718
00:35:31.260 --> 00:35:34.920
the Australian ballet and um, like funding to be removed from

719
00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:36.000
other forms of the arts.

720
00:35:36.059 --> 00:35:39.239
But then again, those people have also been known to turn around

721
00:35:39.239 --> 00:35:43.380
and change the chess pieces and come to good in the end, haven't

722
00:35:43.380 --> 00:35:44.219
they, Mr. Brandis?

723
00:35:44.280 --> 00:35:44.519
They have.

724
00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:48.840
So can we, while we're on that topic, talk about the Russians?

725
00:35:48.900 --> 00:35:49.739
Yes, please.

726
00:35:49.800 --> 00:35:51.300
They are pretty, aren't they?

727
00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:52.500
Well, they're not Russian.

728
00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:54.780
So there's...

729
00:35:54.840 --> 00:35:56.219
There's Tomic Bork.

730
00:35:56.280 --> 00:35:57.719
There's Captain Soren.

731
00:35:57.780 --> 00:35:59.400
Peter Sharkovsky?

732
00:35:59.519 --> 00:36:00.119
Yep, it really is.

733
00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:02.639
As Sergeant Prozarov, who's my favourite.

734
00:36:02.699 --> 00:36:06.539
The Shinen is Marek Anton, who's my favourite.

735
00:36:06.599 --> 00:36:07.320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

736
00:36:07.380 --> 00:36:08.639
Not painted blue for this one.

737
00:36:08.699 --> 00:36:11.639
We'd all be quite happy seeing him blue in this one.

738
00:36:11.699 --> 00:36:15.179
And Petrosian. who's Mark Conrad.

739
00:36:15.239 --> 00:36:17.460
So they're the 4 named.

740
00:36:17.579 --> 00:36:19.739
Petrosian dies quite early, I think.

741
00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:20.940
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

742
00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:23.579
Well, I think he's the one with the papers on the beach.

743
00:36:23.639 --> 00:36:24.539
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

744
00:36:24.599 --> 00:36:26.760
And then there's the sergeant who gets killed quite.

745
00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:29.400
Yeah, that's that's Prozorov.

746
00:36:29.460 --> 00:36:30.059
Yeah, yeah.

747
00:36:30.119 --> 00:36:33.900
And we've got, I think, in Captain Soren, another believable

748
00:36:33.900 --> 00:36:36.119
romantic interest for Ace.

749
00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:38.519
Many of us, I would say.

750
00:36:38.579 --> 00:36:41.880
Again, it's very underwritten, but it is played quite nicely, and

751
00:36:41.880 --> 00:36:45.239
I think Mark Ayres gives it a, there's a little romance theme.

752
00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:48.239
I do love Marcos, but he doesn't give us much choice in what

753
00:36:48.239 --> 00:36:50.099
emotion to feel for anything he's scoring.

754
00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:51.420
I actually don't care about it.

755
00:36:51.480 --> 00:36:52.559
It's Doctor Who.

756
00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:53.460
It's melodrama.

757
00:36:53.519 --> 00:36:56.039
It's the only thing I would criticise him for is that especially

758
00:36:56.039 --> 00:36:59.340
with ghost light, going back to how he scores in anything, is that

759
00:36:59.340 --> 00:37:01.260
you're made to feel this in this scene.

760
00:37:01.320 --> 00:37:05.219
But I think the reason it works for this and the reason it was so

761
00:37:05.219 --> 00:37:09.179
beguiling and so subsuming on the 1st viewing is you don't have

762
00:37:09.179 --> 00:37:09.900
time to keep up.

763
00:37:10.019 --> 00:37:12.539
But that's how people were living in 1943.

764
00:37:12.719 --> 00:37:14.159
There really isn't time.

765
00:37:14.219 --> 00:37:15.780
Everything has to be done very quickly.

766
00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:19.139
Every emotional exchange, every thought, every, you just didn't

767
00:37:19.139 --> 00:37:19.500
have.

768
00:37:19.559 --> 00:37:20.820
Yeah, they didn't sleep very much.

769
00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:24.000
They constantly knew, this might be the last day or the last

770
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:24.420
moment.

771
00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:28.079
So in the levels of cortisol and anxiety, are there.

772
00:37:28.079 --> 00:37:30.360
And it's reflected in the pace of this story.

773
00:37:30.420 --> 00:37:31.619
There is a problem.

774
00:37:31.619 --> 00:37:35.519
Nicholas Parsons. let's get back to Nicholas Parsons in a 2nd

775
00:37:35.519 --> 00:37:37.320
because you alluded to this before.

776
00:37:37.380 --> 00:37:44.760
There is, of course, on the DVD, a longer version, and the way it

777
00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:49.920
seems to have worked is there's more material than they can fit

778
00:37:49.920 --> 00:37:50.880
into the episodes.

779
00:37:50.940 --> 00:37:56.519
And so what they do is they cut out the middle of scenes and they

780
00:37:56.519 --> 00:37:58.079
switch from scene to scene.

781
00:37:58.139 --> 00:38:03.119
And so episode one is very bits and pieces and a little bit hard

782
00:38:03.119 --> 00:38:09.360
to follow and the reconstructed version on the DVD is much more

783
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:13.619
leisurely and much more kind of comprehensible and satisfying.

784
00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:17.340
And it's something that we've said about the whole caramel era is

785
00:38:17.340 --> 00:38:21.360
he's not that good at working out how much can be done in 25

786
00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:22.500
minutes on television.

787
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:26.639
And so everything tends to be overwritten and then sort of chopped

788
00:38:26.639 --> 00:38:26.880
down.

789
00:38:26.940 --> 00:38:29.940
So I do think episode one is a bit unsatisfactory for that

790
00:38:29.940 --> 00:38:30.179
reason.

791
00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:32.760
Nicholas Parsons.

792
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:34.619
Nicholas Parsons, who knew?

793
00:38:34.679 --> 00:38:36.000
extraordinary.

794
00:38:36.059 --> 00:38:38.039
Now, he did start off as an actor.

795
00:38:38.099 --> 00:38:40.679
He actually started off as a straight man, just after the war with

796
00:38:40.679 --> 00:38:46.079
Haynes, with Arthur Haynes as the 2nd banana, and then his, one of

797
00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:50.699
his 1st TV work was with Jerry Anderson, blue cars ads in the

798
00:38:50.699 --> 00:38:51.300
50s.

799
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:53.699
He was a marionette, wasn't he?

800
00:38:53.760 --> 00:38:57.000
He was a painted silver-faced thing with his wife, Denise, who

801
00:38:57.000 --> 00:39:00.179
then did the voice of Zelda many years later on Terror Hawks.

802
00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:04.920
Um, and Parsons did do voices for Anderson on and off over the

803
00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:05.159
years.

804
00:39:05.219 --> 00:39:08.340
Oh, on sale of the century, which was from, you know, now from

805
00:39:08.340 --> 00:39:10.199
Norwich, sales of the century.

806
00:39:10.260 --> 00:39:12.000
And if you've been to England, you know just how funny that

807
00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:12.539
actually is.

808
00:39:12.900 --> 00:39:18.059
But then, of course, since the year I was born, so it's now 50

809
00:39:18.059 --> 00:39:19.800
years of just a minute.

810
00:39:19.860 --> 00:39:23.460
But he's seen as a sort of lovely silly duffer in a striped blazer

811
00:39:23.460 --> 00:39:26.159
and a cravat, and then he comes along and he does this with

812
00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:31.500
poignancy and subtlety, and deep concern, even with all lots of

813
00:39:31.500 --> 00:39:35.400
silly dripping blue painted latex coming at him through a false

814
00:39:35.400 --> 00:39:35.760
door.

815
00:39:35.820 --> 00:39:37.380
He can still carry it off.

816
00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:41.099
His silent silent moment, which is really one of the very few

817
00:39:41.099 --> 00:39:44.219
probably only 2 or 3 still moments in this story, is when he

818
00:39:44.219 --> 00:39:47.519
delivers Paul's letter to the Corinthians. one Corinthians 13.

819
00:39:47.639 --> 00:39:48.719
That's the one.

820
00:39:49.320 --> 00:39:52.139
It's such an extraordinary moment.

821
00:39:52.199 --> 00:39:53.519
I really like him.

822
00:39:53.639 --> 00:39:57.840
I think they cut away from that, just a little bit early because

823
00:39:57.840 --> 00:39:58.800
they're worried about time.

824
00:39:58.980 --> 00:40:02.820
You know, the part is clearly written for someone much younger

825
00:40:02.820 --> 00:40:04.559
like the dialogue makes it clear.

826
00:40:04.619 --> 00:40:07.800
Yeah, because I think the dialogue makes it clear that he's

827
00:40:07.800 --> 00:40:12.539
recently taken over from his father as vicar. look at Prince

828
00:40:12.539 --> 00:40:12.900
Charles.

829
00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:19.739
Yeah, but Miss Hardacre, Miss Hardacre, you know, seems to be

830
00:40:19.739 --> 00:40:23.159
hectoring him as if he's a young man who's not as good as his

831
00:40:23.159 --> 00:40:23.340
father.

832
00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:27.059
Kind of like that an older person is having to play younger, just

833
00:40:27.059 --> 00:40:28.079
because that does happen.

834
00:40:28.139 --> 00:40:31.860
I also think the crisis of faith works a little bit better with a

835
00:40:31.860 --> 00:40:34.619
younger person as well, who's likely to be a little bit more

836
00:40:34.619 --> 00:40:35.219
absolute.

837
00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:39.539
Well, you know, like I just can't think that an English Anglican

838
00:40:39.539 --> 00:40:42.539
clergyman of his age would believe anything very much.

839
00:40:43.199 --> 00:40:47.159
I mean, you've never really known love except in its most esoteric

840
00:40:47.159 --> 00:40:48.059
or ideal forms.

841
00:40:48.300 --> 00:40:52.619
It's, you know, and then to be of an age now where that is

842
00:40:52.619 --> 00:40:55.559
possibly passed as far as he's seeing it.

843
00:40:55.619 --> 00:40:57.119
And then to see this.

844
00:40:57.179 --> 00:41:00.360
I think that it can work for any age because the themes are so

845
00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:01.739
powerful and so base.

846
00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:03.840
Yeah, I do think I do think he's great.

847
00:41:03.900 --> 00:41:10.739
And I do think that scene, which is sort of strange, where he goes

848
00:41:10.739 --> 00:41:17.760
back to the double gates where, um, The Russians and the hemivores

849
00:41:17.760 --> 00:41:22.559
have been locked behind those double doors, and he deliberately

850
00:41:22.559 --> 00:41:26.940
stands in front of it because he wants to test his faith.

851
00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:31.500
Like, he's been told that faith will repel hemovores.

852
00:41:31.559 --> 00:41:34.559
And so he actually does it specifically to do that.

853
00:41:34.619 --> 00:41:36.360
I don't think he's being heroic.

854
00:41:36.420 --> 00:41:38.280
I don't think he's trying to hold him for his back.

855
00:41:38.340 --> 00:41:40.199
I think he's trying to test himself.

856
00:41:40.260 --> 00:41:46.019
And he nearly succeeds, but when the girls say there's no such

857
00:41:46.019 --> 00:41:50.460
thing is good in human beings, there's no good in you, there's no

858
00:41:50.460 --> 00:41:51.719
good anywhere.

859
00:41:51.900 --> 00:41:55.860
His faith collapses because he knows that's the case.

860
00:41:55.980 --> 00:41:59.460
He's in the middle of this war where the British have been

861
00:41:59.460 --> 00:42:05.099
firebombing German cities and he can't believe in good any

862
00:42:05.099 --> 00:42:05.579
longer.

863
00:42:05.579 --> 00:42:08.519
And so, you know, he fails.

864
00:42:08.579 --> 00:42:10.800
And again, Miss Hardacre's kind of right.

865
00:42:10.860 --> 00:42:15.300
Miss Hardacre criticises Wainwright for not having enough faith

866
00:42:15.300 --> 00:42:20.219
and criticises the girls for being immoral and she's right on all

867
00:42:20.219 --> 00:42:20.699
counts.

868
00:42:21.239 --> 00:42:23.579
In terms of Wainwright.

869
00:42:23.699 --> 00:42:26.579
There's something to be said for having a younger actor in the

870
00:42:26.579 --> 00:42:30.059
role, but I think it also works if you look at him as someone who

871
00:42:30.059 --> 00:42:33.780
until this bloody war came along, he was doing absolutely fine and

872
00:42:33.780 --> 00:42:36.179
had no doubts about anything, but yes, it's the violence of the

873
00:42:36.179 --> 00:42:37.019
war that sets it off.

874
00:42:37.079 --> 00:42:41.400
But in terms of younger actors being considered, Jonathan Morris

875
00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:45.480
who was Cheila in Snake Dance was considered, as was Christopher

876
00:42:45.480 --> 00:42:51.179
Villiers of the King's Demons, but also considered, were some

877
00:42:51.179 --> 00:42:57.780
lesser known actors, Christopher Eccleston, and Peter Capaldi.

878
00:42:57.840 --> 00:42:59.099
Ooh.

879
00:42:59.159 --> 00:43:03.539
This is a few years, as we now know, before Peter Capelli

880
00:43:03.539 --> 00:43:07.679
auditioned for the part of Captain Sisco on Deep Space 9.

881
00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:08.880
Wow.

882
00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:10.139
So there you go.

883
00:43:10.199 --> 00:43:14.579
Considered for Millington was James Warwick of Earthshock.

884
00:43:14.579 --> 00:43:18.300
And considered for Johnson were Edmund Hardwick.

885
00:43:18.360 --> 00:43:20.099
Oh, very good. a.k.a.

886
00:43:20.099 --> 00:43:21.360
Dr. Watson.

887
00:43:21.360 --> 00:43:23.039
David McCallum.

888
00:43:23.340 --> 00:43:26.039
And Martin Jarvis.

889
00:43:26.760 --> 00:43:30.960
God, they were going to ex Hugh Martin Jarvis again, were they?

890
00:43:31.019 --> 00:43:31.619
Yes, please.

891
00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:33.659
With a rubber glove on his head, paint him silver.

892
00:43:33.719 --> 00:43:37.500
They were going to pry him out of a fibreglass ant and point him

893
00:43:37.500 --> 00:43:38.760
in the direction of the camera.

894
00:43:40.619 --> 00:43:44.699
And he was playing the moth in that one, so it was uncomfortable

895
00:43:44.699 --> 00:43:46.079
for everyone concerned.

896
00:43:46.139 --> 00:43:48.119
Now, also in terms...

897
00:43:48.119 --> 00:43:56.820
Also in terms of casting, this story, Ghostlight, and I think Time

898
00:43:56.820 --> 00:44:01.079
and the Rani are possibly the only Sylvester McCoy stories are 2

899
00:44:01.079 --> 00:44:06.119
only feature Caucasian characters, but this story does actually

900
00:44:06.119 --> 00:44:07.559
have one black performer.

901
00:44:07.619 --> 00:44:11.579
Yes, however, however...

902
00:44:11.579 --> 00:44:12.840
He's a stunt, dude.

903
00:44:13.199 --> 00:44:15.599
He's a he's a stunt man.

904
00:44:15.659 --> 00:44:20.099
And he's specifically the soldier underwater who opens his eyes

905
00:44:20.099 --> 00:44:24.659
when Johnson reads the inscription because the BBC requested a

906
00:44:24.659 --> 00:44:28.920
diver, he was sent out, but they couldn't find any historical

907
00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:32.820
evidence of black soldiers having served in the Russian army at

908
00:44:32.820 --> 00:44:33.119
the time.

909
00:44:33.179 --> 00:44:36.539
So they whited him up.

910
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:36.900
What?

911
00:44:36.900 --> 00:44:37.920
Really?

912
00:44:37.980 --> 00:44:41.159
Oh, very thick grease paint when he's underwater, yeah.

913
00:44:41.219 --> 00:44:46.139
And apparently, by all reports, he was absolutely fine with the

914
00:44:46.139 --> 00:44:48.960
logic of that and understood what it was and what have you.

915
00:44:49.019 --> 00:44:54.719
But we have also recently had a similar conversation, haven't we

916
00:44:54.719 --> 00:44:58.199
with Mark Gatas. in his script, the Empress of Mars, which of

917
00:44:58.199 --> 00:45:00.239
course features, I believe, 2 black soldiers.

918
00:45:00.300 --> 00:45:03.900
Yeah, and Bo Derek's Dreadlock.

919
00:45:03.960 --> 00:45:07.500
Mark Gate has actually expressed concern, saying, were there black

920
00:45:07.500 --> 00:45:12.000
soldiers in the expeditionary wars and found out, oh, yes, they

921
00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:14.159
bloody were Markham, then was absolutely fine with it.

922
00:45:14.219 --> 00:45:17.219
And I think it's extraordinary that he kind of mentioned that in

923
00:45:17.219 --> 00:45:20.099
an interview, but made sure to say in the interview, but I found

924
00:45:20.099 --> 00:45:24.480
out I was wrong and that was my assumption based on my view of

925
00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:24.780
history.

926
00:45:24.900 --> 00:45:26.639
It's a pre-90s.

927
00:45:26.699 --> 00:45:30.300
We have to remember, even back when Star Trek Voyager premiered in

928
00:45:30.300 --> 00:45:30.719
95.

929
00:45:30.900 --> 00:45:36.179
A lot of high-end fandom. across the board, as in literary people

930
00:45:36.179 --> 00:45:40.139
who are also fans saying, how can we have a black Vulcan?

931
00:45:40.199 --> 00:45:41.639
It's token cast.

932
00:45:41.699 --> 00:45:42.719
They're made up.

933
00:45:42.780 --> 00:45:44.400
They can be...

934
00:45:44.400 --> 00:45:45.059
It was the whole thing.

935
00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:45.900
What was the whole?

936
00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:48.300
Yeah, it was the whole thing of actually having, you know, and we

937
00:45:48.300 --> 00:45:52.019
now accept that we have women playing Hamlet and indeed even

938
00:45:52.019 --> 00:45:54.420
greater roles in British drama.

939
00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:57.719
But yes, but then it was really still questioned.

940
00:45:57.780 --> 00:46:01.440
Now, Richard, I know you haven't seen Star Trek Discovery yet, but

941
00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:03.780
I don't... saving it for under the Christmas tree.

942
00:46:04.019 --> 00:46:07.320
But I don't think it's too surprising for me to say that the lead

943
00:46:07.320 --> 00:46:09.059
actress is a black woman.

944
00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:13.019
Yes, and she's raised by, I've already wolved this out.

945
00:46:13.079 --> 00:46:13.380
Yeah.

946
00:46:13.380 --> 00:46:16.139
Yeah. by gods who build volcanos.

947
00:46:16.139 --> 00:46:21.239
Some ridiculous comment I read on YouTube. literally said, we

948
00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:25.440
already had Janeway and she's a woman and we already had Cisco and

949
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:26.219
he's a black.

950
00:46:26.280 --> 00:46:28.019
So why do we need this character?

951
00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:29.699
Wow.

952
00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:30.360
Yeah.

953
00:46:30.420 --> 00:46:34.860
It's called inclusivity because we have to, because we're not

954
00:46:34.860 --> 00:46:37.199
getting across the board, you're not getting representation.

955
00:46:37.320 --> 00:46:38.099
No, exactly.

956
00:46:38.099 --> 00:46:39.599
So therefore, we're doing it in this.

957
00:46:39.659 --> 00:46:42.719
And the easiest ways to do this is science fiction because it's

958
00:46:42.719 --> 00:46:47.400
always been about what should be or what might be or what, for

959
00:46:47.400 --> 00:46:48.719
God's sake, is the place you do it.

960
00:46:48.780 --> 00:46:52.619
I mean, like 60 Star Trek is nowhere near as progressive as people

961
00:46:52.619 --> 00:46:53.400
give it credit for.

962
00:46:53.460 --> 00:46:54.659
Although they did have a pash.

963
00:46:54.719 --> 00:46:56.099
But for the time.

964
00:46:56.159 --> 00:47:00.239
Yeah, just having a black woman on screen getting dialogue was

965
00:47:00.239 --> 00:47:03.000
amazing, even though she had a thimble in her ear most of the

966
00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:03.179
time.

967
00:47:03.239 --> 00:47:08.099
And according to George Decay, Jean Roddenbury did say to him, I

968
00:47:08.099 --> 00:47:11.639
would consider making Saul Lugay, but I'm having enough of a fight

969
00:47:11.639 --> 00:47:13.260
getting you and Nichelle on the screen.

970
00:47:13.320 --> 00:47:14.039
I'm really sorry.

971
00:47:14.099 --> 00:47:18.360
I don't know if that's not post thinking because, but anyway, let's

972
00:47:18.360 --> 00:47:20.820
give, I'd like to think might be more for the films.

973
00:47:20.940 --> 00:47:24.420
My understanding is that that came about when you see Sulu in the

974
00:47:24.420 --> 00:47:25.019
captain's chair.

975
00:47:25.079 --> 00:47:26.400
That's right, Su Tech.

976
00:47:26.460 --> 00:47:28.260
Yeah, I could be wrong on that.

977
00:47:28.320 --> 00:47:31.260
But a lovely discovery related moment, again, not a spoiler, at

978
00:47:31.260 --> 00:47:34.440
the premiere, Nichelle Nichols and William Shatner were there.

979
00:47:34.500 --> 00:47:37.380
And of course, Sanequa Martin Green, who plays Commander Burnham

980
00:47:37.380 --> 00:47:42.599
as Michelle Yogen. watched Nichelle in Star Trek as a kid and so

981
00:47:42.599 --> 00:47:45.420
was saying to her, you know, you were amazing, et cetera, et

982
00:47:45.420 --> 00:47:45.719
cetera.

983
00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:49.260
And Michelle's response apparently was well kid. all yours now.

984
00:47:49.320 --> 00:47:49.980
Enjoy.

985
00:47:50.159 --> 00:47:55.500
And there's this amazing photo of the 2 of them, just our mouths

986
00:47:55.500 --> 00:47:59.880
open wide in thrilled pleasure at beating each other.

987
00:47:59.880 --> 00:48:01.800
And William Shatt, they're just in the middle.

988
00:48:02.760 --> 00:48:07.320
So it's like Sanequa Martin Green, Michelle Nichols and some bloke

989
00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:11.460
on Twitter. angry, angry bloke from Twitter.

990
00:48:11.519 --> 00:48:14.219
I do think that Doctor Who is now kind of dealing with this

991
00:48:14.219 --> 00:48:19.920
problem a lot better insofar as I think thin ice makes it explicit

992
00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:23.760
where they just say, no, actually your view that the past is white

993
00:48:23.760 --> 00:48:28.440
is a whitewash and they were always black people, but they weren't

994
00:48:28.440 --> 00:48:28.980
mentioned.

995
00:48:29.039 --> 00:48:32.519
It's not that we're suddenly inserting black people into a history

996
00:48:32.519 --> 00:48:34.019
that was full of white people.

997
00:48:34.079 --> 00:48:39.360
It's that you've erased them from history. we're going to put them

998
00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:39.659
back.

999
00:48:39.719 --> 00:48:42.840
And I actually think I was a little bit disappointed by the Mark

1000
00:48:42.840 --> 00:48:45.179
Gatas thing because the question of whether there were really

1001
00:48:45.179 --> 00:48:50.280
black people in an expeditionary force is, in fact, much, much

1002
00:48:50.280 --> 00:48:53.880
less important than should there be black people in this Doctor

1003
00:48:53.880 --> 00:48:54.599
Who episode.

1004
00:48:54.659 --> 00:48:59.699
And like, no one thinks that Doctor Who is... has to be

1005
00:48:59.699 --> 00:49:03.420
historically accurate, unless you think there really were sort of

1006
00:49:03.420 --> 00:49:06.840
pteraleptils around, you know, in England's history.

1007
00:49:06.900 --> 00:49:08.760
Should they forge underwater as well?

1008
00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:14.519
So anyway, I know that we've strayed widely off topic, but I am

1009
00:49:14.519 --> 00:49:19.739
sort of slightly disappointed by the white face, you know, Russian

1010
00:49:19.739 --> 00:49:21.360
crew member story, I'm afraid.

1011
00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:25.920
In a way, it's kind of heartening that they didn't say to the

1012
00:49:25.920 --> 00:49:26.880
stunt agency.

1013
00:49:26.940 --> 00:49:29.639
Make sure you send a white actor, but on the other hand, they

1014
00:49:29.639 --> 00:49:30.599
probably just assumed...

1015
00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:31.920
Well, he had a divers.

1016
00:49:31.980 --> 00:49:33.719
He had a scuba diver's certificate.

1017
00:49:33.780 --> 00:49:36.000
Well, that's not all that common, certainly not in the 80s.

1018
00:49:36.059 --> 00:49:36.420
It wasn't.

1019
00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:43.019
The fact that we have so much variance in the drama visually as

1020
00:49:43.019 --> 00:49:44.340
well as emotionally.

1021
00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:46.079
It's a tidal play.

1022
00:49:46.199 --> 00:49:50.400
I really love that it begins and ends metaphorically and very

1023
00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:51.599
significantly in the water.

1024
00:49:51.659 --> 00:49:54.960
And yes, Sophie did do her own big dive off the rocks.

1025
00:49:55.019 --> 00:49:59.579
No, Silv didn't push her. of her own accord.

1026
00:50:00.239 --> 00:50:03.840
I was actually a little bit anxious about that because she is

1027
00:50:03.840 --> 00:50:05.219
diving from rocks into the water.

1028
00:50:05.280 --> 00:50:08.820
She was really bitter for ages that she said, no one can see it's

1029
00:50:08.820 --> 00:50:13.260
me. tunic down because me knickers are showing and no one can say

1030
00:50:13.260 --> 00:50:15.119
which is again is another point when she does that whole

1031
00:50:15.119 --> 00:50:18.780
ridiculous speech with the time in flux and a 2nd of a movement.

1032
00:50:18.840 --> 00:50:19.920
1943.

1033
00:50:20.099 --> 00:50:21.900
She just kind of said, do you want to see me pants, mate?

1034
00:50:21.960 --> 00:50:23.340
And it would have been long.

1035
00:50:23.400 --> 00:50:26.099
Well, he does say you promised.

1036
00:50:26.159 --> 00:50:29.940
So really, do you want to see me pants, mate, did figure into the

1037
00:50:29.940 --> 00:50:31.679
conversation a bit that we didn't see.

1038
00:50:32.639 --> 00:50:35.099
I do love in that scene, though.

1039
00:50:35.159 --> 00:50:36.420
Are you looking for someone?

1040
00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:38.639
No, you.

1041
00:50:40.199 --> 00:50:45.179
Because that is both beguiling and flirty, but also...

1042
00:50:45.179 --> 00:50:48.059
A little bit dismissive. completely diminishing of him as a

1043
00:50:48.059 --> 00:50:48.300
person.

1044
00:50:48.420 --> 00:50:49.739
Yeah, but as a man.

1045
00:50:49.800 --> 00:50:51.780
Yep, you've got a job, mate.

1046
00:50:51.840 --> 00:50:57.300
And you know, something else I really love is when they're running

1047
00:50:57.300 --> 00:50:58.920
away and Soren's been released.

1048
00:50:58.980 --> 00:51:02.039
Sora just gives her this look of, you are amazing.

1049
00:51:02.219 --> 00:51:06.000
And it's a slightly corny scene, but she plays it so well.

1050
00:51:06.059 --> 00:51:09.000
A lot of this is corny because life is corny.

1051
00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:14.639
And in these moments and this, the sense of urgency in this story

1052
00:51:14.639 --> 00:51:18.059
I had not seen in any other Doctor Who story, apart from perhaps

1053
00:51:18.059 --> 00:51:21.539
the massacre, never seen the sense of pain.

1054
00:51:21.599 --> 00:51:25.559
I actually joking that, but the sense of pace and drama and the

1055
00:51:25.559 --> 00:51:28.800
constant fighting against the onset of despair and its despair

1056
00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:30.780
itself that will destroy us.

1057
00:51:30.780 --> 00:51:33.960
The only reason we can keep going is faith and hope.

1058
00:51:34.019 --> 00:51:37.139
I'm getting a whole songs of praise thing from this season.

1059
00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:38.099
I really am.

1060
00:51:38.159 --> 00:51:42.119
Well, when Kathleen received her telegram that Frank's been

1061
00:51:42.119 --> 00:51:42.599
careful.

1062
00:51:42.659 --> 00:51:43.320
Oh, yes.

1063
00:51:43.320 --> 00:51:46.619
When Ace finds her, again, it's desperation.

1064
00:51:46.679 --> 00:51:47.940
It's like, what's wrong?

1065
00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:48.420
What's happened?

1066
00:51:48.480 --> 00:51:50.159
Tell me, I'll do anything.

1067
00:51:50.159 --> 00:51:53.039
Yes, we've seen what that means.

1068
00:51:53.099 --> 00:51:54.300
Yeah, we, yes.

1069
00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:56.760
And she doesn't even finish reading the telegram before she just

1070
00:51:56.760 --> 00:51:59.340
grabs Kathleen and won't let go of her.

1071
00:51:59.400 --> 00:52:01.139
When you actually see that scene.

1072
00:52:01.199 --> 00:52:03.480
I think there's a little bit of a spoiler about their relationship

1073
00:52:03.480 --> 00:52:06.960
because Ace actually comes in at that hug.

1074
00:52:07.019 --> 00:52:08.159
I think it's a bit ladylike.

1075
00:52:09.420 --> 00:52:10.019
Underneath.

1076
00:52:10.079 --> 00:52:13.019
Yes, that's what I mean, right underneath, yes.

1077
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:16.739
It looks like Kathleen is actually hugging Ace, like comforting

1078
00:52:16.739 --> 00:52:19.260
Ace. because of course she's her grandmother.

1079
00:52:19.920 --> 00:52:21.900
How thick is that?

1080
00:52:21.960 --> 00:52:23.219
She still doesn't work it out.

1081
00:52:23.280 --> 00:52:24.539
I mean come on.

1082
00:52:24.659 --> 00:52:26.820
Okay, I know it's necessary.

1083
00:52:26.880 --> 00:52:30.239
I'd like to think that the reason that she says, go back and stay

1084
00:52:30.239 --> 00:52:30.960
with my nan.

1085
00:52:31.019 --> 00:52:33.000
I mean, really, have you still not worked it out?

1086
00:52:33.059 --> 00:52:34.139
But she does.

1087
00:52:34.199 --> 00:52:37.139
I'd like to think that the flat that she goes to is empty because

1088
00:52:37.139 --> 00:52:40.019
the people are just away or there've been a bomb venom?

1089
00:52:40.019 --> 00:52:44.219
And it just happens within that literally probably 24 hour cycle.

1090
00:52:44.280 --> 00:52:46.619
She's moved in and the neighbours don't say anything because

1091
00:52:46.619 --> 00:52:47.820
everything's in turmoil.

1092
00:52:47.880 --> 00:52:50.639
And they're all doing it up indoors during the blitz anyway.

1093
00:52:50.699 --> 00:52:54.360
Everyone was at it like knives and sixpence rolling across the

1094
00:52:54.360 --> 00:52:54.599
floor.

1095
00:52:54.719 --> 00:52:56.400
Nobody really knew what was going on.

1096
00:52:56.460 --> 00:53:00.900
I actually assumed that her nan was her paternal grandmother.

1097
00:53:00.960 --> 00:53:02.159
Yeah, yeah.

1098
00:53:02.219 --> 00:53:04.320
But does that make sense too?

1099
00:53:04.380 --> 00:53:05.460
Well, I don't know.

1100
00:53:05.519 --> 00:53:08.099
I like to think she just came into an empty flat and started a new

1101
00:53:08.099 --> 00:53:08.280
life.

1102
00:53:08.340 --> 00:53:10.440
Yeah, that's how I read it as well.

1103
00:53:10.500 --> 00:53:14.579
But, okay, Richard, you say A should pick up on that.

1104
00:53:14.639 --> 00:53:18.900
In 1989, or I suppose 1990 here when you were watching.

1105
00:53:18.900 --> 00:53:20.940
Did you pick up on it before Fenrick revealed it?

1106
00:53:21.059 --> 00:53:24.000
Oh, gosh, it's hard to say that because we've seen, I can't

1107
00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:24.780
remember.

1108
00:53:24.840 --> 00:53:28.019
And I was coming back after it was I was at uni and so it was like

1109
00:53:28.019 --> 00:53:31.079
2nd or 3rd year and having, and we just loved this so much.

1110
00:53:31.380 --> 00:53:34.260
I think you're just involved with the narrative.

1111
00:53:34.320 --> 00:53:38.699
Look, yes, we all knew who she was because that's how these

1112
00:53:38.699 --> 00:53:39.719
stories play out.

1113
00:53:39.780 --> 00:53:42.840
But we're very forgiving of the characters involved in it.

1114
00:53:42.900 --> 00:53:43.500
And you're right.

1115
00:53:43.559 --> 00:53:45.059
There's so much tension going on.

1116
00:53:45.119 --> 00:53:49.500
She probably can't be she's got a lot happening for the young for

1117
00:53:49.500 --> 00:53:50.579
a young lass in this story.

1118
00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:52.619
You know what?

1119
00:53:52.679 --> 00:53:55.619
I think maybe if she hadn't found out the baby's name until the

1120
00:53:55.619 --> 00:53:59.400
baby was leaving because that scene early on with like her name's

1121
00:53:59.400 --> 00:54:01.440
Audrey, oh, I hate it. my mum's name.

1122
00:54:01.500 --> 00:54:03.360
That doesn't really add anything.

1123
00:54:03.420 --> 00:54:05.880
It's a bit on the nose, actually, isn't it?

1124
00:54:05.940 --> 00:54:09.300
It's like, you know, if as she's bundling into the car face, but I

1125
00:54:09.300 --> 00:54:10.079
don't even know her name.

1126
00:54:10.139 --> 00:54:11.280
Audrey.

1127
00:54:11.400 --> 00:54:14.159
And then, of course, Ace doesn't have time to think she's being

1128
00:54:14.159 --> 00:54:16.559
chased down by Gene and Phyllis and has to have faith.

1129
00:54:16.619 --> 00:54:19.920
And it could be Fenrick who said, Audrey, that's your mother's

1130
00:54:19.920 --> 00:54:20.219
name.

1131
00:54:20.340 --> 00:54:24.119
And we could have been told the name Audrey in a previous story

1132
00:54:24.119 --> 00:54:26.460
but then again, this story was designed to go out 1st this year

1133
00:54:26.460 --> 00:54:29.460
which is why Sylvester's wearing the duffle coat.

1134
00:54:29.519 --> 00:54:34.559
Yes, and why we get the... the reveal of his new little outfit.

1135
00:54:34.619 --> 00:54:36.599
But that's also, do you know what was Silv Stuffel coat?

1136
00:54:36.659 --> 00:54:39.539
He wore that on location previous year to keep warm.

1137
00:54:39.599 --> 00:54:41.280
So you just said, oh, I'll just keep it in.

1138
00:54:41.340 --> 00:54:41.760
I love it.

1139
00:54:41.820 --> 00:54:44.880
Oh, so it's there to reveal the new brand.

1140
00:54:44.940 --> 00:54:45.780
Yeah, yeah, that's right.

1141
00:54:45.840 --> 00:54:49.440
And also, it has slightly floppier pockets in his field jacket, so

1142
00:54:49.440 --> 00:54:51.900
you can see his script page as well, Italy.

1143
00:54:51.960 --> 00:54:55.619
Because as he describes it, you know, if the left pocket's fuller

1144
00:54:55.619 --> 00:54:56.519
it's earlier in the shoot.

1145
00:54:56.519 --> 00:54:59.400
And if the right pocket's fuller, it's later in the shoot because

1146
00:54:59.400 --> 00:55:00.480
I just moved the pages.

1147
00:55:00.539 --> 00:55:06.599
This season was meant to be broadcast as Fenrick Battlefield

1148
00:55:06.599 --> 00:55:08.099
Ghostlight survival.

1149
00:55:08.400 --> 00:55:14.820
So, therefore, when Ace is talking to Audrey about, there was a

1150
00:55:14.820 --> 00:55:17.579
house where near where I grew up in Perivale that gave me the

1151
00:55:17.579 --> 00:55:18.000
creeps.

1152
00:55:18.059 --> 00:55:21.420
It was meant to be foreshadowing, whereas here it becomes a

1153
00:55:21.420 --> 00:55:22.320
reference to last week.

1154
00:55:22.380 --> 00:55:24.059
Thankfully, it still works.

1155
00:55:24.179 --> 00:55:25.739
Still really does work.

1156
00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:28.139
But it mostly works because of Corey Pullman.

1157
00:55:28.199 --> 00:55:32.940
Kathleen is just amazing as a volt face for older to play

1158
00:55:32.940 --> 00:55:33.360
against.

1159
00:55:33.420 --> 00:55:36.840
Yeah, you meet her, and then 2 seconds later, Millington's barking

1160
00:55:36.840 --> 00:55:39.420
at her, and she has that wonderful rambling bit of, oh, I thought

1161
00:55:39.420 --> 00:55:42.900
my cousin, this, that, the other, and she just really sells her

1162
00:55:42.900 --> 00:55:44.039
character in that moment.

1163
00:55:44.099 --> 00:55:49.320
I love Silv, almost picking Sophie up and saying, no, no, no, we're

1164
00:55:49.320 --> 00:55:49.860
not arguing.

1165
00:55:49.920 --> 00:55:52.860
We're not going to hit the base commander, Soph.

1166
00:55:54.059 --> 00:55:57.360
And we have the betrayal scene.

1167
00:55:57.420 --> 00:56:01.380
We've already had earlier on in the story and it's kind of there

1168
00:56:01.380 --> 00:56:02.280
as an Easter egg.

1169
00:56:02.340 --> 00:56:05.039
It's not essential to the plot, but when the hemovores attack the

1170
00:56:05.039 --> 00:56:08.880
church, the doctor says under his breath, Susan, Ian, Barbara

1171
00:56:08.880 --> 00:56:13.320
Vicki, Stephen, Dodo, Katerina, I don't know.

1172
00:56:13.380 --> 00:56:14.880
Sharon from Black Castle.

1173
00:56:15.059 --> 00:56:20.159
But that's the idea that the doctor has faith in his companions

1174
00:56:20.219 --> 00:56:21.900
from the old...

1175
00:56:21.960 --> 00:56:26.579
Do you know, I actually only think he gets as far as...

1176
00:56:27.179 --> 00:56:29.039
And then he just says faith, faith, faith, because Sylvester

1177
00:56:29.039 --> 00:56:29.880
couldn't be bothered now.

1178
00:56:29.940 --> 00:56:31.380
Yeah, it's a good list of companions.

1179
00:56:31.440 --> 00:56:35.099
Yeah, so we have that idea that the doctor has faith in his

1180
00:56:35.099 --> 00:56:38.280
companions, which the new series has written into the

1181
00:56:38.280 --> 00:56:39.239
characterisation.

1182
00:56:39.300 --> 00:56:44.039
You know, most recently we've seen Peter Capaldi saying to Bill

1183
00:56:44.039 --> 00:56:47.280
his doctor saying to Bill, there are 7000000000 idiots on this

1184
00:56:47.280 --> 00:56:49.500
planet, but occasionally there's someone like you and that's why I

1185
00:56:49.500 --> 00:56:50.340
put up with the rest of them.

1186
00:56:51.179 --> 00:56:51.539
You know?

1187
00:56:51.599 --> 00:56:55.920
So Ace then turns around at the end of this and has faith in the

1188
00:56:55.920 --> 00:56:56.400
doctor.

1189
00:56:56.400 --> 00:57:00.599
And unfortunately, the game is given away a bit because we cut to

1190
00:57:00.599 --> 00:57:04.380
Sylv, and he says the hemovore can't penetrate her psychic force.

1191
00:57:04.440 --> 00:57:06.900
Didn't you just say, could you come just come and stand over here

1192
00:57:06.900 --> 00:57:07.260
behind me?

1193
00:57:09.659 --> 00:57:13.139
Could you just go out and fetch me something from out there every

1194
00:57:13.139 --> 00:57:13.619
2nd time?

1195
00:57:13.679 --> 00:57:14.940
That would have been bad.

1196
00:57:15.659 --> 00:57:18.179
Let me just destroy you utterly.

1197
00:57:18.239 --> 00:57:21.179
That is actually the most heinous thing that happens to her, I

1198
00:57:21.179 --> 00:57:23.940
think, in the whole 3 years is he's bringing down of her.

1199
00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:25.920
And doesn't self-play it well.

1200
00:57:25.980 --> 00:57:28.559
Do you think he meant it just a teensy bit?

1201
00:57:29.460 --> 00:57:32.280
I don't quite buy it.

1202
00:57:32.340 --> 00:57:33.360
You know what I mean?

1203
00:57:33.420 --> 00:57:34.380
Like, and it would be good.

1204
00:57:34.440 --> 00:57:39.000
I was very careful watching it yesterday because, you know, it is

1205
00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:43.380
so pivotal and it would be so great if it totally worked, but it

1206
00:57:43.380 --> 00:57:48.239
really needs to be believable and it's not really believable

1207
00:57:48.239 --> 00:57:48.599
sadly.

1208
00:57:48.659 --> 00:57:53.219
Yeah, I think that cutting to silve saying the hemophore can't get

1209
00:57:53.219 --> 00:57:53.460
through.

1210
00:57:53.519 --> 00:57:56.639
That undermines it a bit because we then know what he's doing.

1211
00:57:56.699 --> 00:57:59.519
Whereas if it just had it been me a killer.

1212
00:57:59.579 --> 00:58:00.000
Yeah.

1213
00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:04.199
Because we've had that big lecture from her earlier saying you'd

1214
00:58:04.199 --> 00:58:05.280
never tell anyone anything.

1215
00:58:05.340 --> 00:58:08.280
And because when she said, I'll distract the guard, he's so

1216
00:58:08.280 --> 00:58:09.119
dismissive of her.

1217
00:58:09.239 --> 00:58:13.980
I think if we didn't get an insight into his mind there, it would

1218
00:58:13.980 --> 00:58:15.059
have been a bit more believable.

1219
00:58:15.119 --> 00:58:15.900
Yes, I agree.

1220
00:58:15.960 --> 00:58:17.760
For what it is and what we get on screen.

1221
00:58:17.820 --> 00:58:20.099
I think Sylv and Sophie perform it very well.

1222
00:58:20.159 --> 00:58:24.840
His coldness when he's saying, you know, killer, she's an

1223
00:58:24.840 --> 00:58:27.360
emotional cripple, of course I know she's your plaything.

1224
00:58:27.420 --> 00:58:28.559
You think I didn't know?

1225
00:58:28.619 --> 00:58:30.480
It's really well done.

1226
00:58:30.539 --> 00:58:34.739
It is really scary and we've often said it's hard for doctor

1227
00:58:34.739 --> 00:58:37.380
companions to get real emotion into their performance because

1228
00:58:37.380 --> 00:58:38.519
they're not really given the stuff.

1229
00:58:38.579 --> 00:58:40.500
But when Ace collapses.

1230
00:58:40.559 --> 00:58:44.219
You know, Sophie gives it a really, really good go in a bizarre

1231
00:58:44.219 --> 00:58:45.420
and unreal situation.

1232
00:58:45.480 --> 00:58:47.519
I actually like it better.

1233
00:58:47.579 --> 00:58:51.360
I think her best bit is where she yells at him when he tries to

1234
00:58:51.360 --> 00:58:55.619
drag her out and then she kind of remonstrates with him afterwards

1235
00:58:55.619 --> 00:58:57.119
for what he said.

1236
00:58:57.179 --> 00:58:59.340
I think she does really well there.

1237
00:58:59.460 --> 00:59:03.659
And I also think Sylvester's, you know, sorrow at having had to do

1238
00:59:03.659 --> 00:59:05.820
that. as well is really good.

1239
00:59:05.940 --> 00:59:08.519
Like, I think he does a great job. of that.

1240
00:59:08.579 --> 00:59:12.179
Yeah, I love the emotional connection, but it only works because

1241
00:59:12.179 --> 00:59:15.000
they've had 2 seasons to bring this together.

1242
00:59:15.119 --> 00:59:16.500
Yeah, absolutely.

1243
00:59:16.559 --> 00:59:20.820
I actually think that Ghostlight coming before Fenrick works

1244
00:59:20.820 --> 00:59:24.719
better than Ghostlight coming after Fenrick, because this scene

1245
00:59:24.719 --> 00:59:27.719
where he breaks her down and she forgives him.

1246
00:59:27.780 --> 00:59:32.219
If 2 weeks later, he had have taken her to that haunted house, done

1247
00:59:32.219 --> 00:59:33.719
it again. you've done it again.

1248
00:59:33.780 --> 00:59:38.039
Where...

1249
00:59:38.219 --> 00:59:39.599
Exactly.

1250
00:59:39.599 --> 00:59:40.139
Exactly.

1251
00:59:40.199 --> 00:59:45.300
Whereas, you know, we're given the impression that he respects her

1252
00:59:45.300 --> 00:59:49.739
more now, she dives into the water and comes up as a woman with

1253
00:59:49.739 --> 00:59:51.900
the shadows of her past dispelled.

1254
00:59:51.960 --> 00:59:55.139
Yeah, literal catharsis, a literal cleansing, yes.

1255
00:59:55.199 --> 00:59:55.619
Yeah.

1256
00:59:55.679 --> 00:59:58.800
You know, there's something slightly off about that ending with

1257
00:59:58.800 --> 01:00:01.019
dangerous undercurrents.

1258
01:00:01.079 --> 01:00:01.980
Not anymore.

1259
01:00:02.400 --> 01:00:04.500
Oh, everyone's dead.

1260
01:00:06.360 --> 01:00:08.519
It is just like that.

1261
01:00:08.579 --> 01:00:12.480
I actually think that speech is a little bit too on the nose as

1262
01:00:12.480 --> 01:00:12.840
well.

1263
01:00:12.900 --> 01:00:14.519
Yeah, it feels hurried, yeah.

1264
01:00:14.579 --> 01:00:16.019
Or sort of overwrought.

1265
01:00:16.079 --> 01:00:16.920
Do you know what I mean?

1266
01:00:16.980 --> 01:00:20.519
Like, it's a little bit sort of kids, they are little underwater.

1267
01:00:20.519 --> 01:00:22.559
Who knows what she was up to down there?

1268
01:00:22.619 --> 01:00:25.860
But it sort of clears the emotional decks in that relationship.

1269
01:00:25.920 --> 01:00:30.840
And so for the final story, They just go back and visit, you know

1270
01:00:30.840 --> 01:00:31.800
there's no manipulation.

1271
01:00:31.860 --> 01:00:33.900
There's no hidden agenda.

1272
01:00:33.960 --> 01:00:37.500
They're just going back to see how aces mates are getting on in

1273
01:00:37.500 --> 01:00:38.880
Perivale after all this time.

1274
01:00:38.940 --> 01:00:39.900
Yeah, exactly.

1275
01:00:39.960 --> 01:00:43.440
Like the evil they discover that's going on there, they literally

1276
01:00:43.440 --> 01:00:46.199
just discover when they land and it's the doctor going, there's

1277
01:00:46.199 --> 01:00:49.860
something weird going on. which is what we want.

1278
01:00:49.920 --> 01:00:53.639
People who do enjoy that scene with Silv and Sophie should really

1279
01:00:53.639 --> 01:00:56.219
listen to Big Finisher's adaptation of love and war.

1280
01:00:56.280 --> 01:01:01.679
Oh, yes, it's good. which ends with another scene where Ace

1281
01:01:01.679 --> 01:01:05.280
confronts the doctor and it just had me in floods.

1282
01:01:05.340 --> 01:01:08.280
They've had 30 years to work on these characters.

1283
01:01:08.340 --> 01:01:08.940
Yes.

1284
01:01:08.940 --> 01:01:10.380
As we record.

1285
01:01:10.440 --> 01:01:13.860
It's the 30th anniversary of Time and the Rani going out.

1286
01:01:13.980 --> 01:01:14.820
So they had...

1287
01:01:14.880 --> 01:01:16.679
They had 30 years to work on these characters.

1288
01:01:16.739 --> 01:01:18.179
And yeah, in in love and war.

1289
01:01:18.239 --> 01:01:21.960
There's, I won't spoil it, but there's just one question that Ace

1290
01:01:21.960 --> 01:01:22.860
asks the doctor.

1291
01:01:24.360 --> 01:01:28.559
And he gives her an answer that she cannot accept and she explains

1292
01:01:28.559 --> 01:01:30.300
why she cannot accept it.

1293
01:01:30.300 --> 01:01:34.139
And all the way through, Sophie is screaming.

1294
01:01:34.199 --> 01:01:37.739
And yet it's hard to perform through a scream.

1295
01:01:37.800 --> 01:01:42.300
But she manages it so well and he is in such anguish.

1296
01:01:42.360 --> 01:01:46.320
And it's it's kind of showing maybe he doesn't mend his way so

1297
01:01:46.320 --> 01:01:46.980
much after this.

1298
01:01:47.400 --> 01:01:52.440
They do revisit that theme too in the god complex, don't they?

1299
01:01:52.500 --> 01:01:56.639
where the doctor tries to destroy Amy's faith in him because

1300
01:01:56.639 --> 01:01:59.280
that's what the Minotaur thing feeds on.

1301
01:01:59.340 --> 01:02:02.400
And I think that's a little bit more successful, but partly

1302
01:02:02.400 --> 01:02:05.940
because the relationship between Amy and the doctor has been a bit

1303
01:02:05.940 --> 01:02:07.559
more toxic and ambiguous.

1304
01:02:07.619 --> 01:02:08.760
Yeah.

1305
01:02:08.760 --> 01:02:09.000
Yeah.

1306
01:02:09.059 --> 01:02:13.019
No, the gold complex definitely feels like an homage to the new

1307
01:02:13.019 --> 01:02:13.980
adventures into this season.

1308
01:02:14.880 --> 01:02:17.280
And also the Naimon.

1309
01:02:17.280 --> 01:02:21.239
And Paul Cornell, friend of, well, other podcasts.

1310
01:02:52.619 --> 01:02:57.059
Well, then, let's not, we're about to go on a final trip back to

1311
01:02:57.059 --> 01:02:57.960
Perivale.

1312
01:02:58.019 --> 01:03:00.840
So, do come back next week for survival.

1313
01:03:00.900 --> 01:03:04.380
In the meantime, you can find us online at flightthroughentirety

1314
01:03:02.880 --> 01:03:06.780
com, flight through entirety on Facebook and Apple Podcasts.

1315
01:03:06.840 --> 01:03:10.800
Please leave a 5 star review and FTE podcast on Twitter.

1316
01:03:10.860 --> 01:03:12.539
Over on Bondfinger.

1317
01:03:12.599 --> 01:03:16.380
We are just about to bid farewell to Pierce Brosnan as James

1318
01:03:16.380 --> 01:03:16.920
Bond.

1319
01:03:16.980 --> 01:03:20.579
You can find that at Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and

1320
01:03:20.579 --> 01:03:23.219
Apple Podcasts, and Bondfinger Cast on Twitter.

1321
01:03:23.460 --> 01:03:27.480
Until next time, may no one plants seeds in your face, which

1322
01:03:27.480 --> 01:03:28.559
sprout in storage.

1323
01:03:28.619 --> 01:03:29.940
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1324
01:03:30.059 --> 01:03:30.659
Good night.

1325
01:03:30.719 --> 01:03:35.639
I've just realised that the VAC formed boob walls are actually the

1326
01:03:35.639 --> 01:03:38.820
TARDIS time monster walls just turned around.

1327
01:03:56.880 --> 01:04:00.780
That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bodderly, Brendan

1328
01:04:00.780 --> 01:04:01.679
Jones, and Richard Stone.

1329
01:04:01.679 --> 01:04:04.800
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, logo designed by Anthony

1330
01:04:04.800 --> 01:04:05.519
Wells.

1331
01:04:05.639 --> 01:04:09.119
This episode, Wall of Nipples, was recorded on the 30th of

1332
01:04:09.119 --> 01:04:10.139
September 2017.

1333
01:04:10.440 --> 01:04:13.320
The next episode will be released on the 5th of November.

1334
01:04:16.619 --> 01:04:20.699
According to Doctor Who Facts, after the curse of Fenrick, only

1335
01:04:20.699 --> 01:04:24.179
three stories have been set during the Second World War, the

1336
01:04:24.179 --> 01:04:28.260
Doctor Dances, Planet of Rationing, and the terror of Dame Vera

1337
01:04:28.260 --> 01:04:28.739
Lynn.

1338
01:04:31.800 --> 01:04:32.519
What do you think?

1339
01:04:32.519 --> 01:04:34.619
Did we want to talk about the hemophores at all?

1340
01:04:34.679 --> 01:04:35.519
They're blue.

1341
01:04:35.579 --> 01:04:37.679
They're blue.

1342
01:04:37.739 --> 01:04:39.719
It's a blue lady.

1343
01:04:39.780 --> 01:04:40.980
Jeez.

1344
01:04:41.039 --> 01:04:44.519
I think it's actually Denise, um, Parsons.

1345
01:04:44.579 --> 01:04:46.860
I just think it's Nicholas Parsons wife.

1346
01:04:46.920 --> 01:04:50.159
She was painting up blue, like colours before.

1347
01:04:50.219 --> 01:04:53.940
As we know, as Barry always said, the colour for monsters is

1348
01:04:53.940 --> 01:04:54.179
blue.

1349
01:04:54.239 --> 01:04:55.139
Yeah, that's right.

1350
01:04:55.199 --> 01:04:57.840
And, of course, 2 of Sylvester's.

1351
01:04:57.900 --> 01:04:59.400
Sylvester's 2 sons are in there.

1352
01:04:59.460 --> 01:05:00.420
Are they really?

1353
01:05:00.480 --> 01:05:01.380
They play it blue.

1354
01:05:01.440 --> 01:05:02.159
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1355
01:05:02.219 --> 01:05:05.159
Joe and...

1356
01:05:06.420 --> 01:05:09.539
Cho and look them up.

1357
01:05:09.599 --> 01:05:10.260
Radcliffe.

1358
01:05:10.320 --> 01:05:11.820
James Radcliffe.

1359
01:05:11.880 --> 01:05:13.440
James, I think is one of them.

1360
01:05:13.500 --> 01:05:15.000
No, not Jim and Joe. Percy?

1361
01:05:15.059 --> 01:05:16.619
He's Percy.

1362
01:05:16.619 --> 01:05:17.280
He's Percy.

1363
01:05:17.340 --> 01:05:17.940
Percy.

1364
01:05:18.000 --> 01:05:18.659
H Smith.

1365
01:05:18.719 --> 01:05:19.380
They're simple names.

1366
01:05:19.440 --> 01:05:20.519
This will go after the credit.

1367
01:05:20.579 --> 01:05:23.579
Yeah, I think so. simple names for simple.

1368
01:05:23.639 --> 01:05:24.480
Yes, yes.

1369
01:05:24.659 --> 01:05:26.400
There's too much in this.

1370
01:05:27.300 --> 01:05:29.699
You know, we can start talking about.

1371
01:05:29.699 --> 01:05:32.940
The runes and how, I don't want to talk about China's

1372
01:05:32.940 --> 01:05:33.300
translation.

1373
01:05:33.300 --> 01:05:38.099
So let's do, let's do Flight through Entirety, the worst idea in

1374
01:05:38.099 --> 01:05:41.159
the universe where we do an hour-long podcast about Cursor

1375
01:05:41.159 --> 01:05:42.119
Fenrik.

1376
01:05:42.119 --> 01:05:43.980
Every week for the rest of our lives.

1377
01:05:44.039 --> 01:05:49.380
Well, we, there's probably enough to talk about for if we do 4 or

1378
01:05:49.380 --> 01:05:51.059
5 of these, dear listener.

1379
01:05:51.480 --> 01:05:55.320
No, only 4 because otherwise they won't give us the money to do 14

1380
01:05:55.320 --> 01:05:56.460
next year, right?

1381
01:05:56.519 --> 01:06:00.539
That's right Okay, doesn't she?

1382
01:06:00.599 --> 01:06:01.260
Let's wrap it up.