Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety
the only Doctor Who podcast who invites you to come into the water
where it's always warm.
I'm Brendan.
I'm Nathan I'm not a little girl anymore Of course you aren't
darling.
It's Doctor Who's 1st example of a really well thought out two
year story arc.
Oh, sorry, wait, no, it's Curse of Fenerick.
Hooray!
We all love the curse of fanfic, don't we?
For a long time, this was my favourite story.
I actually thought this was the best...
A lot of people.
Saint Kate Orman.
Yeah.
Well, I think that that was kind of like received wisdom at the
time, and I think...
It looked so fresh. looked so good.
So it's Nicholas Mallett.
And he's on location and this was a four-parter that wasn't
originally meant to be on location, I think.
It was originally going to be a combination of studio and location
but he just decided that it worked better on location.
I actually ended up saying a bit of money doing it that way, too.
Well, you can't tell.
It looks horribly expensive and went over time and budget.
You know this was going to be 5 parts, but the powers that be, and
Mr. Powell, who we thought was our friend, said, no, keep it to 4
parts, cut all the nonsense out, which is why it's difficult to
follow unless you watch the thing, because they wanted this series
to end this year and they weren't telling anyone.
No nonsense, no more publicity. just let it go Meanwhile, JNT
stopped pushing for the 5th episode to flesh it out because he
realised that.
And, you know, this was him thinking we definitely have season
27.
We're doing really well.
He thought that if I tell the BBC that they've given me money to
make 14 episodes and I make 15, they'll give me money to make 13
episodes and expect 14 next year.
And of course, he didn't know that he wasn't getting another
year.
If he did know, he may have pushed to extend these episodes to
half hours.
We are 3 stories into what we didn't realise at the time, the last
ever classic series, and this is the 1st time we've properly gone
to World War II.
Yeah, like now this is interesting.
You know why we didn't get it under Barry Letts.
We're all saving this off, dear listener, because there's so much
to say about this and we're actually squirming in our seats from
too much coffee and too much excitement.
So we're saving getting into the story.
We just going to do the do the peripherals.
We're going to approach it as if by long boat and oars.
Yes, and we haven't even got on to some of the oarsmen yet, have
we, Brenton?
No?
No, it's very cool, face over there.
But this is the point is that Barry Letts, who had been serving on
a British submarine, not anyone else's, a British submarine in
World War II.
And really didn't like to talk about his wartime experiences, but
actually vetoed.
There were 2 stories that were going to include the Nazis.
And he, no, no, no, no, no, we do not talk about World War 2 on
Doctor Who.
I think that for most of Doctor Who's run, it doesn't do the
recent past. all. like it's something...
More games, skirts around it.
Well, I mean, it does World War I because we can't do World War II
yes.
So the 1st time that the doctor travels back in time to a period
when the show is on.
Am I right about this?
Remembrance?
Yeah.
So we never go back just 20 something years.
Like we go back to the Victorian era, we go back to the early 20th
century.
Oh, we're contemporary, but it's...
Yeah, and certainly in the Paris Letts era, we never go back in
time, apart from Time Warrior.
Oh, and and I guess...
I think the best of the per one.
Go back and listen to that.
We're good in that.
The World War 2 setting lends it a bit of gravitas without making
the mistake of putting Nazis on screen.
And I do think that, you know, having World War 2 with Nazis would
just deform...
Doctor Who doesn't have the dramatic weight to cope with that.
And it's more interesting putting in Soviets, well, polls as
decorated as Soviets for this. because we're talking about the
boundaries and distinctions and sides changing during conflict as
we're about to get with the chess game.
It's perfection that we have, Soviets and rather than Nazis, which
would have been really obvious.
Also, we're still selling to RTL.
So cough cough.
But I do think too, that there is a Cold War metaphor for this as
well. in the sense that the story is suffused with an idea of the
evil inherent in humanity, and that that's one of the massive
themes of the entire story.
And that is...
Levine isn't with us?
No, no, but we remember him.
But, you know, there is in the story a massive underground stash
of missiles filled with enough poison to kill everything in the
world.
Or the boob room, as the rock was called it. look a bit like
that.
Do go back and have a look, yes.
A wall of nipples.
Yes, the Diana Dores Memorial.
But it is there rarefied as how evil and destructive we are.
And so Nicholas Parsons has lost his faith because of the bombing
of Dresden.
You know, the girls are told by Miss Hardacre that there's evil in
their hearts and there's no good in them and that turns out to be
true.
We discover just like Servoland in terminal that humanity evolves
into sort of horrific monsters throughout the fulness of time.
The whole thing is set in this atmosphere of evil.
And so what better place to set it than this sort of massive
terrifying conflict that looms over the 20th century?
I think another good reason that they don't just say it's World
War 2, so it's going to be a story about Nazis is, of course, that
in human terms, it's the British naval commander who's the
villain.
Yes, you know, Millington is the villain.
And if you had a World War 2 story with a Nazi invading force, but
then revealed that a British character...
Yeah, it's kind of like, that's a bit awkward.
This was encouraged by Ian Briggs was fan of history anyway, but
so was Kart Mall.
And this was encouraged by everyone who was working on it because
of course, kids in Britain growing up understanding the history, we
didn't quite get it at schools in Australia, but you know that
Britain and Russia, as it was, before World War II, almost a
century, were playing that long game with whole nations and with
the Middle East as the prize.
And of course, it's all about oil, but just, and where do we think
Fenrick's jugs, cough, cough actually come from?
The Middle East, of course, is the genie joke.
Middle East, yeah.
Yeah, but the whole nations were their chess pieces and this was
playing along.
Well, Germany was really not the deal and nor was France.
It was Britain and Russia.
So this story has a lot.
If you're sitting at schooling or reading modern history. getting
this.
Kids.
Also, poles. aren't they great?
Playing Russians.
You know, the fellow, the fellow who was, um, someone will film me
in who was who was playing Ace's Louvre interest, one of them.
I might say.
Yes, of course, it was really uncomfortable playing a Russian
officer and...
Because he was... more because his family had gone through such
awful experiences under the Russians during the war.
It just adds depth and to everybody's performance.
No one is indifferent to their work in this.
Even to the point of bit players like Corey Pullman, who plays
aces.
Well let's not go there yet.
Why did she not have an extraordinary career after this?
There's no one in this that doesn't glitter?
She's amazing, and that little subplot, which is just sketched out
in a few scenes, is incredible.
She's really, really good.
And, you know, we get, as we have had, I think, in pretty much
every story with Ace, except, actually, yeah, I would say except
Silver Nemesis.
Pair Sophie Aldred up with another strong female actress and we
get amazing scenes which deliver character as well as plot.
And the scenes between Sophie and Corey.
They're at 1st touching.
They tell us about the morality of the 1940s when Ace blithely
suggests that maybe Kathleen's not married and Kathleen is just
outrage, not outraged at the thought of an unwed mother, but that
she might be mistaken for an unwed mother.
Beautifully done.
To the point that Briggs was really careful talking to her because
people were still alive then and the folk on the thing about
getting the speech patterns right in the dialogue, right?
This is apparently how people in 43 in Britain talked, so the
language and stylising Miss Hardacre, of course, being one of
those girls who'd lost her reputation.
Which is why she's not married.
Which is made explicitly clear in the novel.
And when she's listening to the record and Gene and Phyllis come
back in and kill her in the novel, she's actually thinking about
that boy whom she really did love and care for, but because they
did things in the wrong order and he wasn't a matron.
And he wasn't from a nice family and couldn't offer her the life
her parents wanted.
She had to then go away to the country for a little bit.
That's why she's sort of listening to that record and smiling
wistfully because she's actually jealous of these young girls who
can be a bit freer and talk about being Lorna Jane or Gary
Russell.
You know, it is, it is slightly funny that, and I thought at the
time it was a little bit risqué because it's the 80s, you know, and
it's very strongly implied that Aces had sex by the line, I'm not
a little girl.
And also in the novel, there is some joke about maiden's point, you
know, and whether Gene Phyllis.
How cold that water actually is?
Well, our Jean Phyllis and Ace actually maidens at this point.
Well, either Gene or Phyllis actually say when Ace says, oh, let's
go to Maiden's Point.
Well, yeah, it's Gina says that rules me and Phyllis out.
Yeah, yeah, but I think it rules Ace out as well.
And then the idea that in Ace's peer group.
She doesn't actually know anyone who's married.
She's sort of slightly weirded out by the fact that Kathleen is
married and she just assumes, oh, well, you know, is it your
boyfriend?
And she thinks about not being married either.
I actually thought that that was a little bit risque even for sort
of the late 1980s in a kid's show to kind of strongly imply all of
that sort of stuff.
And it's certainly something that we would never have dreamed of
doing, you know, 10 years earlier on Doctor Who.
That's the lovely thing. meant for family viewing.
And that's why it's so strong, has been so strong in the
comeback.
Ah, can you imagine if this had just got its publicity?
I don't think it would ever have been taken off there.
No, absolutely not.
You know, because of this season.
Season 24 averaged just over 4000000 season 25 averaged just over
5 million. was that 6000000 by the end of the season.
This season, of course, we discussed a couple of weeks ago, started
out at 3 million.
At this point, it had grown, and this story averages over 4000000
viewers.
So we're back up to season 24 levels, opposite Coronation Street
with almost no publicity.
Not bad.
Not bad at all.
Not bad.
There's so much in this.
Gamesmanship, of course, the history of computing, unmarried
motherness, drawing on the backs of your legs, something for
everyone, isn't it?
Homosexuality and chemical castration.
Yes.
And Ian Briggs has explicitly confirmed that Judson's paralysis
and paraplegia was a metaphor for Turing's homosexuality.
Now, for those of you who don't know, of course, highly
recommended the imitation game with Benedict Cumberbatch.
And even better one, and what this was based on was at the time
was Andrew Hodges, Alan Turing the Enigma.
But, you know, during at the time in the 80s, where he was
actually quite more known to us who were just starting university
because he was figuring in a lot of, um, you know, amateur
productions and plays and and writing as the go-to figure in the
pre-AZT days of HIV recognition and because he saved the empire in
many ways.
We can get onto that and what is actually happening with the
computers.
So he, he, um, he kind of codefines this, this idea of the touring
machine, which is capable of doing all sorts of calculations that
appear quite complex and that you would think actually needed a
conscious mind behind them.
But it is just a machine that consumes input, transforms it, and
then does output.
It's a very simple mechanical device.
And that's what computers are But Turing took it to another
level.
Do you know who his sources were and who he wrote as his
inspirations?
Girdle, as in Girdle Esher Bach, and Lewis Carroll.
Turing actually cites Lewis Carroll in his writing because no, not
through his fiction, but for his symbolic logic work.
Which, of course, plays into his fiction when characters say
things like this word means whatever I say it means, which is very
much a coding idea.
Of Mrs. Thatcher.
I mean, Ian Briggs has gone as far to say that, as far as he's
concerned, from a writing point of view, Millington and Judson had
had an affair.
Oh, very much so.
Yeah, and he's like, that's what I wrote, that's what was played.
Of course, we couldn't say it because of Mrs. Thatcher.
And because it's 19, and because it's 1989.
It's in the novel.
And it is strongly implied in that scene where it's quite clear
that Millington is responsible for the injury that put Judson in
the wheelchair.
And it's out of jealousy because Johnson was talking to another
boy on the rugby field and Millington tackles him too hard.
Yeah, it's in the novel.
That's what happens.
For listeners who may not know the full story of Alan Turing.
I mean, I'll sum it up very briefly.
He was, of course, one of the fathers of modern computing, but
also built the Enigma decoder, which here is instead the ultimate
decoder, which broke the German cyphers.
He was also homosexual and of course closeted in the 1940s.
He was found out after the war and given the option, I believe, of
imprisonment or chemical castration.
Do you know how he was found out?
He was robbed.
He was robbed by, well, just trade had been several times.
Of course, you know, because blackmail was the industry.
He just rang the local police and said, oh, I think some things
have gone missing.
And being lovely and vague, and in his own head, and they came
over.
One of the cops is very decent.
Another one started debating him.
And of course, he was honest.
Oh, yes, well, he just left and I, no, I don't know who he was.
And then, of course, they got him for the homosexuality.
It had been known by the department and, of course, ignored
because they were educated people.
But no, it was this one bastardy cop that decided, oh, yes, I can
see what's going on and used and abused the laxity of the laws to
do what they did to this man.
Yeah, the chemical castration.
The idea was rob him of his libido so he won't have these
libidinous thoughts for men and he killed himself.
Yeah, but it also leads to a lot of major organ disfunction.
Oh, no.
It was a crippling series of treatments.
Yeah, yeah.
No, it's not just, you know, you don't feel up to it tonight
anymore.
It was like there were physical changes and things.
I mean, it was really, really quite horrific.
And there was a few years ago, a move to get the British
Parliament, I think, to pardon touring posthumously.
But even that's unsatisfactory because the whole idea that the
state's role is to enforce heterosexuality on the populace is just
outrageous.
Yeah, the pardon is disgusting.
That's right, because he didn't actually do anything wrong.
And he was a hero.
Anthony Beaver sights him as being one of the major reason, but
that turning point just at that time.
And they've worked out once Monty had had his success in the
desert.
They worked out later in that year.
I think it was 43 that the coats had been cracked, but there were
6 months where he turned it around.
His discoveries really made it work.
And computing in general.
I mean, we wouldn't have, you know, the theoretical basis of
computing and that idea of the touring machine.
Well, he was also using von Neumann's 1928 theories, you know, of
gamesmanship, which we talked about, which, of course, are in this
script.
There's a lot going on.
I mean, there is a reference explicitly to the prisoner's
dilemma.
Yes.
You know what that is?
that's when a cop takes the 2 suspects into separate cells and
says, okay, we'll broker a deal with you.
If you grasp on the other bloke, I'll lessen your sentence.
And of course, the idea is that it's reduced down.
That's John Nash, as in the subject of a beautiful mind.
You know, that one.
Nash is actually a psychopathic schizophrenic.
And he also...
Still alive?
A Doctor Who fan.
John Nash is a Doctor Who fan.
And it's been lampooned.
So, that the Princeton dilemma thing has been lamping because and
shot down because it only works if you've got 2 sociopaths.
Well, it's a little bit different from that because what you do
with game theory is that you have a iterated prisoner's dilemma
where you have a past and a future.
You know, the way the prisoner's dilemma is set up is that there
are 2 prisoners.
If one of them defects, they call it and sort of says the other
one is guilty, turns the other one in, they get a reduced
sentence.
If both of them do it though, then they're in sort of really
serious trouble.
Both of them refuse to, if both of them refuse to cooperate
they'll get off lightly.
But because they can't hear each other, you can't guarantee that
the other person's not going to defect on you.
And so even though the best outcome for everyone is that neither
of you defect, because that's unenforceable.
In fact, you kind of have to defect.
But once you reiterate it, once you meet one another again and
again and again, do you know what I mean?
Then you've got the prospect of revenge and payback and gratitude
and all of those kinds of things, and you start to be able to
model, uh, you know, like animal behaviour in a sort of social
context because reiterating the prisoner's dilemma allows there to
be sort of past and future and stuff like that.
So it's a kind of thought technology that enables us to think
about how kind of social animals interact with one another.
So anyway, it's a theme.
That's exactly right.
So it's a flip-flop thingy.
It's a flip-flop thingy.
In a story which is about, you know, human evil, the prisoner's
dilemma, which is like an atom of human behaviour is quite a good
thing to reference, I think.
On the topic of human evil, many of the main characters in the
story have had their bloodlines touched by Fenrick.
So Captain Soren, Commander Millington, Dr. Judson, um, and
Kathleen and Ace, of course.
And so the implication there is, of course, you know, Millington
is evil.
Millington is planning to indiscriminately kill with chemical
weapons.
You know, there's no doubt about that and all he cares about is
winning the war.
The Russian soldiers who are guarding the doctor and ace as they
come out of the tunnel at one point, 1000000s and seals them in
despite the fact there would have been plenty of time for them to
get out and still steal the hemovores in, but he's like, no, I've
got what I want.
I've got what's important.
Soren and Judson, of course, become possessed by Fenrick and
become evil.
And Ace is kind of tempted into evil several times.
So by Gene and Phyllis, for instance, by Fenrick at the end
different forms of evil rules.
But just she...
She also inadvertently helps Fenwick twice.
Like, by telling Judson that the final inscription is a computer
program is a logic diagram.
The greatest sin is pride, isn't it?
She actually has Pertwe's pride in knowledge of itself.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.
Have halftime score, you know, pair of Vale, several million, you
know, rest of the universe nil.
And then, of course, she explains to Soren how to defeat the chess
game.
But it's also the doctor's pride.
Because the doctor doesn't think that anyone could possibly
understand what his plan is, so he doesn't explain it to anyone.
Because I can't play this man. games, he said, in Ghost Life.
Because, of course, the doctor later says, so long as Johnson
doesn't realise that the final description's a commuter program
and A says, you should have told me.
And then if he had told her what the chess move was, but said
don't tell anyone, anyone can be Fenrick.
Fenrick can possess people.
She wouldn't have run in and said, hey, Soren, I know what the
solution is because even if Fenrick's not Soren at that point.
He could still be around, you know.
As much as the doctor has been training ace.
There is still a lack of respect for her own intelligence and
intuition.
Like when she says I can distract the guard.
He's actually really dismissive that she could possibly help in
this situation.
He's just, oh, how?
Is that not just being 900 years old and having someone with you
who is really a speck of life's distance?
I think he's forgotten about sex.
But also, there has to come a time when there is an experiential
gap in a relationship or friendship where you kind of think, okay
maybe this person is as experienced or as knowledgable as I am, but
I'm choosing to be with them and I have to trust them.
I have to trust that when they say to me, I can do something that
they can do it. you know, and I think a big problem in this story
and it is referred to and pointed out in the plot, is that the
doctor isn't trusting Ace with his plans.
And we discussed it last week with Ghostlight, how he just kind of
throws her into this house, knowing it disturbs her rather than
saying, we're going to go back to that place and we're going to
find out what's gone wrong.
Same with Greater Show in the Galaxy.
Like the doctor's like, oh, I've heard things about the psychic
circus.
I hate clowns.
Okay, we're definitely going now.
I've learned to pick my mouth.
They sound great.
Oh, okay.
Well, someone else then.
It's like, it's like, you know what I really hate, doctor?
I really hate cake.
Banana lounges and long cocktails with fruit and then they terrify
me.
I really hate Spanish men.
You know what I really hate, doctor.
Firefighters in cybersuits.
Let's not let's not go near any of those.
It's amazing you didn't start gaming like that.
This all comes to a head because she calls him out on it in the
2nd last story of the classic series.
She actually rounds on him and yells at him and says you're
treating me like a fool.
You knew it was a, and she, you know, she says when she finds out
that she shouldn't have told Judson about the computer program.
She says, why didn't you tell me?
And then in this speech.
It's like, you knew about this, you didn't tell me, you know, you
don't respect me, you can't be bothered to include me in your
plans.
You know?
Yeah, and the amazing thing is, unlike, say, later on, sometimes
Rose Tyler, who makes it all about, you didn't, you know, you
didn't tell me what about me.
A says you can't be bothered telling anyone.
You know, she's not just fighting for herself there.
She's fighting for the people who are caught in the crossfire of
this.
And it's another electric scene between the 2 of them because
she's screaming in his face.
And I know some people have criticised Sylvester for the evil
since the dawn of time speech, but I think it really gets across
that he's talking about a concept that cannot be adequately
described in words.
He's searching for the way to describe it and his despair when he
says somehow the evil force survives because the implication is
there that the good force hasn't survived in the same way.
And I think like to think it's just dispersed, like all the
other...
Yeah, yeah. whereas the evil has kind of stayed together.
But he's really sad, like the way he chooses to play it.
And I've said, like I don't think Sylvester's very convincing at
playing anger.
And I do think that there are bits of that scene that aren't that
great.
He's been a lot better as he's gone on.
And certainly there's an admixture of sadness in the way he plays
that scene and I like that a great deal.
Someone we haven't mentioned, of course, you know, we've talked
about Dinsdale, Landon, Dr. Johnson.
Pig in the middle.
And Reed.
Sorry.
Anne Reed.
No, we didn't call her pig in the middle.
It was a series that Landon did.
He was kind of known as a one note performer.
I think he's really top notch as it was when he's in the chair, but
once he stands up and plays Fenrick, he really nails this.
You know, part of the thing is that he hated the contact lenses
and he found them really off putting.
And so you can see Fenrick blinking all the time. because he's
really worried about these contact lenses.
And of course, at the very end, he's gone blind, you know, because
he can't cope with that chess game that they have.
And I think he's really terrific and he's got those terrifying
capped teeth or whatever the hell they are that makes his smile
really scary.
And don't interrupt me while I'm eulogising.
Oh, I just love the idea that Dr. Judson seems to somewhat still
be in there because when he confronts Crane, Fenrick says you've
always been treating me like a child, but then changes back to, I
think Dr. Judson would have wanted this.
Yeah, it's the only death that he really seems to take a great
deal of pleasure in.
I do like the line, you know, when it comes to death. quantities
so much more satisfying than quality.
Oh my god, is Eric sane?
I got the same haircut.
The whole time.
You know, his plan is to kill everyone.
You know, we've all been there. there now.
And of course, oh, no, let's talk more about Anne Reid.
Because, of course, talk about Anne Reed.
She is spectacular.
We own her.
She's really good Yeah, and then she comes back as a very own kind
of vampire, of course, in Smith and Jones.
It's wonderful.
She's so tremendous.
She really is so such a underrated episode, is it?
Yeah.
She and Alfred Lynch's Millington and Dinsdale landed have one of
the best three-way scenes of the 80s for me, which is some...
I'm curious as to where this is going.
Some respect for the wheelchair, please.
He's an invalid.
And Landon responds, I'm not an invalid.
I a cripple.
I'm also a genius, so shut up a pair of you, which I think is a
wonderful lie.
And yeah, just kind of emphasises Johnson's frustration at the
fact that, okay, yeah, my legs don't work, but I am still the
smartest man in the nearest 50 miles, so shut up.
But he's constantly being hauled around and patronised and
things.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. and reads character.
You know, especially language professor.
There's a layer depressant.
And the mother?
She was Daniel Craig's love interest.
Oh goodness.
No, the age difference was the plot point.
Yes, and the paper straws.
Yeah.
Whereas now Daniel Craig gets asked what it's like acting with an
older woman who is 3 years older than him and he takes them to
bloody task on it.
What do you mean by older?
I'm only 3 years younger.
Are you saying that because she's a woman?
Well, yes.
In exactly that voice?
Daniel Craig is Lady Bracknell.
So what do we think of Millington?
Alfred Very, very good.
And the reason it seems kind of odd and not quite there.
It is odd.
And the one clashing thing is the moustache because that was
against naval regulations.
You actually weren't allowed to sport a moustache if you were in
the Navy.
You could have a beard.
Yeah, yeah, no facial hair.
But it's because he was playing Hitler.
And they were doing this.
This is actually how they were cracking the codes before the
enigma, which took a long time coming, Colossus, I should say
which was before that. took a long time coming and actually
getting onto it.
No, they were doing it by supposition.
And by playing as the enemy.
To think is the Germans thing.
And they were going quite mad doing it.
Yeah of course.
An interesting point I found out during the week about Nazism in
popular culture.
There's a lot of it.
Unfortunately.
A few years after this, a very famous video game was made called
Wolfenstein 3D, which was one of the 1st really popular mainstream
1st person shooting games.
And so you were an American soldier trapped in a Nazi fortress
trying to escape.
The original game manual didn't use the word Nazi.
It used the word Germans.
And one of the programmers said, I had to spend an hour explaining
to the team that not all Germans were Nazis. 2 words were not
interchangeable.
They were at the time, but yes.
Well, the point he was trying to make was, okay, yes, everyone in
German, it was on the Nazi side, if you like, but there was
resistance even within Germany.
And if you just say Nazi equals German.
Even the Nazis were not all Nazis.
Look at Rudolph Hess would very much oppose to Hitler's programmer
entity to the other officers' programs. who can say I was going
look, we don't know their position on genocide, but it seemed to
be, it seemed to have a bit of momentum. at the time.
Yes.
But that's the thing.
Ace walks into Millington's office. office and says immediately, oh
you know, he's secretly a Nazi and the doctor's like, no, he's
just pretending to be one to, but it's called acting, dear.
Yeah, you look at Indiana Jones.
It's just like, yep, Nazis are villains.
And Nazis are villains, but reducing them to just a villain and
often a comic villain in popular culture is part of what has led
to the softening of how we perceive Nazism to do.
Oh, the softening and the welcoming of how we see fascism now.
Well, I think we seem to be quite comfortable with it as a culture
don't we?
Well, I mean, there's enough time to forget.
You know, like, I think that Doctor Who did well to avoid having
actual Nazis.
I mean, we had the comedy stupid Nazis in Sylvan Nemesis, but they
weren't World War II.
No, and let's not go to Let's kill Hitler.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Exactly.
What were they thinking?
I think that was just Moffatt's exhaustion writ large.
I should say, yeah.
That's what I was saying earlier with, you know, if they had have
had the Nazis in this story, It would have been impossible to
present them in any other way than just rent a crowd villainy when
the actual horror. of Nazism needs to be better explored.
And it's actually, Terrence Dix manages to do that in Timeworm
Exodus, you know, he really shows what it's like under Nazi
occupation. good little scorcher of a book, isn't it?
well, yeah.
I just don't think you can do it on television.
No, I just think it can't be done.
Unless you're doing hello, hello.
Yeah, yeah.
But I mean, Doctor Who is not that kind of programmed.
Yeah, when it tries to be, it doesn't get there.
No, that's right.
Let's kill Hitler.
But, you know, one week it's robot lizards and the next week it's
Nazis.
I mean we just can't possibly do that.
Whereas when it has characters standing in for fascists like the
regime on Terra Alpha.
Because it's somewhat removed from reality, it actually becomes a
better commentary than if you just had fascists.
Because it's the triumph of the tropes, isn't it?
Yeah.
It's really, you know, really, we don't have Lenny Reef and start
working on the show.
So you can't actually venerate or elevate fascism too, to its true
its true power, which is, I don't even comfortable saying this.
It's purist aestheticism.
Fascism is, if you like, is an ideal, no less powerful than the
opus day notions in high Catholicism.
It's about the purity of a concept, and they both use books of
Zion as basis for some of their ideologies.
We're talking about the absolute, um, sinequine on of destiny of
truth, of vision, of, it's quite shiny and spectacular to people
who are prone to that sort of thing, you know, who tend to support
the Australian ballet and um, like funding to be removed from
other forms of the arts.
But then again, those people have also been known to turn around
and change the chess pieces and come to good in the end, haven't
they, Mr. Brandis?
They have.
So can we, while we're on that topic, talk about the Russians?
Yes, please.
They are pretty, aren't they?
Well, they're not Russian.
So there's...
There's Tomic Bork.
There's Captain Soren.
Peter Sharkovsky?
Yep, it really is.
As Sergeant Prozarov, who's my favourite.
The Shinen is Marek Anton, who's my favourite.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Not painted blue for this one.
We'd all be quite happy seeing him blue in this one.
And Petrosian. who's Mark Conrad.
So they're the 4 named.
Petrosian dies quite early, I think.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, I think he's the one with the papers on the beach.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then there's the sergeant who gets killed quite.
Yeah, that's that's Prozorov.
Yeah, yeah.
And we've got, I think, in Captain Soren, another believable
romantic interest for Ace.
Many of us, I would say.
Again, it's very underwritten, but it is played quite nicely, and
I think Mark Ayres gives it a, there's a little romance theme.
I do love Marcos, but he doesn't give us much choice in what
emotion to feel for anything he's scoring.
I actually don't care about it.
It's Doctor Who.
It's melodrama.
It's the only thing I would criticise him for is that especially
with ghost light, going back to how he scores in anything, is that
you're made to feel this in this scene.
But I think the reason it works for this and the reason it was so
beguiling and so subsuming on the 1st viewing is you don't have
time to keep up.
But that's how people were living in 1943.
There really isn't time.
Everything has to be done very quickly.
Every emotional exchange, every thought, every, you just didn't
have.
Yeah, they didn't sleep very much.
They constantly knew, this might be the last day or the last
moment.
So in the levels of cortisol and anxiety, are there.
And it's reflected in the pace of this story.
There is a problem.
Nicholas Parsons. let's get back to Nicholas Parsons in a 2nd
because you alluded to this before.
There is, of course, on the DVD, a longer version, and the way it
seems to have worked is there's more material than they can fit
into the episodes.
And so what they do is they cut out the middle of scenes and they
switch from scene to scene.
And so episode one is very bits and pieces and a little bit hard
to follow and the reconstructed version on the DVD is much more
leisurely and much more kind of comprehensible and satisfying.
And it's something that we've said about the whole caramel era is
he's not that good at working out how much can be done in 25
minutes on television.
And so everything tends to be overwritten and then sort of chopped
down.
So I do think episode one is a bit unsatisfactory for that
reason.
Nicholas Parsons.
Nicholas Parsons, who knew?
extraordinary.
Now, he did start off as an actor.
He actually started off as a straight man, just after the war with
Haynes, with Arthur Haynes as the 2nd banana, and then his, one of
his 1st TV work was with Jerry Anderson, blue cars ads in the
50s.
He was a marionette, wasn't he?
He was a painted silver-faced thing with his wife, Denise, who
then did the voice of Zelda many years later on Terror Hawks.
Um, and Parsons did do voices for Anderson on and off over the
years.
Oh, on sale of the century, which was from, you know, now from
Norwich, sales of the century.
And if you've been to England, you know just how funny that
actually is.
But then, of course, since the year I was born, so it's now 50
years of just a minute.
But he's seen as a sort of lovely silly duffer in a striped blazer
and a cravat, and then he comes along and he does this with
poignancy and subtlety, and deep concern, even with all lots of
silly dripping blue painted latex coming at him through a false
door.
He can still carry it off.
His silent silent moment, which is really one of the very few
probably only 2 or 3 still moments in this story, is when he
delivers Paul's letter to the Corinthians. one Corinthians 13.
That's the one.
It's such an extraordinary moment.
I really like him.
I think they cut away from that, just a little bit early because
they're worried about time.
You know, the part is clearly written for someone much younger
like the dialogue makes it clear.
Yeah, because I think the dialogue makes it clear that he's
recently taken over from his father as vicar. look at Prince
Charles.
Yeah, but Miss Hardacre, Miss Hardacre, you know, seems to be
hectoring him as if he's a young man who's not as good as his
father.
Kind of like that an older person is having to play younger, just
because that does happen.
I also think the crisis of faith works a little bit better with a
younger person as well, who's likely to be a little bit more
absolute.
Well, you know, like I just can't think that an English Anglican
clergyman of his age would believe anything very much.
I mean, you've never really known love except in its most esoteric
or ideal forms.
It's, you know, and then to be of an age now where that is
possibly passed as far as he's seeing it.
And then to see this.
I think that it can work for any age because the themes are so
powerful and so base.
Yeah, I do think I do think he's great.
And I do think that scene, which is sort of strange, where he goes
back to the double gates where, um, The Russians and the hemivores
have been locked behind those double doors, and he deliberately
stands in front of it because he wants to test his faith.
Like, he's been told that faith will repel hemovores.
And so he actually does it specifically to do that.
I don't think he's being heroic.
I don't think he's trying to hold him for his back.
I think he's trying to test himself.
And he nearly succeeds, but when the girls say there's no such
thing is good in human beings, there's no good in you, there's no
good anywhere.
His faith collapses because he knows that's the case.
He's in the middle of this war where the British have been
firebombing German cities and he can't believe in good any
longer.
And so, you know, he fails.
And again, Miss Hardacre's kind of right.
Miss Hardacre criticises Wainwright for not having enough faith
and criticises the girls for being immoral and she's right on all
counts.
In terms of Wainwright.
There's something to be said for having a younger actor in the
role, but I think it also works if you look at him as someone who
until this bloody war came along, he was doing absolutely fine and
had no doubts about anything, but yes, it's the violence of the
war that sets it off.
But in terms of younger actors being considered, Jonathan Morris
who was Cheila in Snake Dance was considered, as was Christopher
Villiers of the King's Demons, but also considered, were some
lesser known actors, Christopher Eccleston, and Peter Capaldi.
Ooh.
This is a few years, as we now know, before Peter Capelli
auditioned for the part of Captain Sisco on Deep Space 9.
Wow.
So there you go.
Considered for Millington was James Warwick of Earthshock.
And considered for Johnson were Edmund Hardwick.
Oh, very good. a.k.a.
Dr. Watson.
David McCallum.
And Martin Jarvis.
God, they were going to ex Hugh Martin Jarvis again, were they?
Yes, please.
With a rubber glove on his head, paint him silver.
They were going to pry him out of a fibreglass ant and point him
in the direction of the camera.
And he was playing the moth in that one, so it was uncomfortable
for everyone concerned.
Now, also in terms...
Also in terms of casting, this story, Ghostlight, and I think Time
and the Rani are possibly the only Sylvester McCoy stories are 2
only feature Caucasian characters, but this story does actually
have one black performer.
Yes, however, however...
He's a stunt, dude.
He's a he's a stunt man.
And he's specifically the soldier underwater who opens his eyes
when Johnson reads the inscription because the BBC requested a
diver, he was sent out, but they couldn't find any historical
evidence of black soldiers having served in the Russian army at
the time.
So they whited him up.
What?
Really?
Oh, very thick grease paint when he's underwater, yeah.
And apparently, by all reports, he was absolutely fine with the
logic of that and understood what it was and what have you.
But we have also recently had a similar conversation, haven't we
with Mark Gatas. in his script, the Empress of Mars, which of
course features, I believe, 2 black soldiers.
Yeah, and Bo Derek's Dreadlock.
Mark Gate has actually expressed concern, saying, were there black
soldiers in the expeditionary wars and found out, oh, yes, they
bloody were Markham, then was absolutely fine with it.
And I think it's extraordinary that he kind of mentioned that in
an interview, but made sure to say in the interview, but I found
out I was wrong and that was my assumption based on my view of
history.
It's a pre-90s.
We have to remember, even back when Star Trek Voyager premiered in
95.
A lot of high-end fandom. across the board, as in literary people
who are also fans saying, how can we have a black Vulcan?
It's token cast.
They're made up.
They can be...
It was the whole thing.
What was the whole?
Yeah, it was the whole thing of actually having, you know, and we
now accept that we have women playing Hamlet and indeed even
greater roles in British drama.
But yes, but then it was really still questioned.
Now, Richard, I know you haven't seen Star Trek Discovery yet, but
I don't... saving it for under the Christmas tree.
But I don't think it's too surprising for me to say that the lead
actress is a black woman.
Yes, and she's raised by, I've already wolved this out.
Yeah.
Yeah. by gods who build volcanos.
Some ridiculous comment I read on YouTube. literally said, we
already had Janeway and she's a woman and we already had Cisco and
he's a black.
So why do we need this character?
Wow.
Yeah.
It's called inclusivity because we have to, because we're not
getting across the board, you're not getting representation.
No, exactly.
So therefore, we're doing it in this.
And the easiest ways to do this is science fiction because it's
always been about what should be or what might be or what, for
God's sake, is the place you do it.
I mean, like 60 Star Trek is nowhere near as progressive as people
give it credit for.
Although they did have a pash.
But for the time.
Yeah, just having a black woman on screen getting dialogue was
amazing, even though she had a thimble in her ear most of the
time.
And according to George Decay, Jean Roddenbury did say to him, I
would consider making Saul Lugay, but I'm having enough of a fight
getting you and Nichelle on the screen.
I'm really sorry.
I don't know if that's not post thinking because, but anyway, let's
give, I'd like to think might be more for the films.
My understanding is that that came about when you see Sulu in the
captain's chair.
That's right, Su Tech.
Yeah, I could be wrong on that.
But a lovely discovery related moment, again, not a spoiler, at
the premiere, Nichelle Nichols and William Shatner were there.
And of course, Sanequa Martin Green, who plays Commander Burnham
as Michelle Yogen. watched Nichelle in Star Trek as a kid and so
was saying to her, you know, you were amazing, et cetera, et
cetera.
And Michelle's response apparently was well kid. all yours now.
Enjoy.
And there's this amazing photo of the 2 of them, just our mouths
open wide in thrilled pleasure at beating each other.
And William Shatt, they're just in the middle.
So it's like Sanequa Martin Green, Michelle Nichols and some bloke
on Twitter. angry, angry bloke from Twitter.
I do think that Doctor Who is now kind of dealing with this
problem a lot better insofar as I think thin ice makes it explicit
where they just say, no, actually your view that the past is white
is a whitewash and they were always black people, but they weren't
mentioned.
It's not that we're suddenly inserting black people into a history
that was full of white people.
It's that you've erased them from history. we're going to put them
back.
And I actually think I was a little bit disappointed by the Mark
Gatas thing because the question of whether there were really
black people in an expeditionary force is, in fact, much, much
less important than should there be black people in this Doctor
Who episode.
And like, no one thinks that Doctor Who is... has to be
historically accurate, unless you think there really were sort of
pteraleptils around, you know, in England's history.
Should they forge underwater as well?
So anyway, I know that we've strayed widely off topic, but I am
sort of slightly disappointed by the white face, you know, Russian
crew member story, I'm afraid.
In a way, it's kind of heartening that they didn't say to the
stunt agency.
Make sure you send a white actor, but on the other hand, they
probably just assumed...
Well, he had a divers.
He had a scuba diver's certificate.
Well, that's not all that common, certainly not in the 80s.
It wasn't.
The fact that we have so much variance in the drama visually as
well as emotionally.
It's a tidal play.
I really love that it begins and ends metaphorically and very
significantly in the water.
And yes, Sophie did do her own big dive off the rocks.
No, Silv didn't push her. of her own accord.
I was actually a little bit anxious about that because she is
diving from rocks into the water.
She was really bitter for ages that she said, no one can see it's
me. tunic down because me knickers are showing and no one can say
which is again is another point when she does that whole
ridiculous speech with the time in flux and a 2nd of a movement.
1943.
She just kind of said, do you want to see me pants, mate?
And it would have been long.
Well, he does say you promised.
So really, do you want to see me pants, mate, did figure into the
conversation a bit that we didn't see.
I do love in that scene, though.
Are you looking for someone?
No, you.
Because that is both beguiling and flirty, but also...
A little bit dismissive. completely diminishing of him as a
person.
Yeah, but as a man.
Yep, you've got a job, mate.
And you know, something else I really love is when they're running
away and Soren's been released.
Sora just gives her this look of, you are amazing.
And it's a slightly corny scene, but she plays it so well.
A lot of this is corny because life is corny.
And in these moments and this, the sense of urgency in this story
I had not seen in any other Doctor Who story, apart from perhaps
the massacre, never seen the sense of pain.
I actually joking that, but the sense of pace and drama and the
constant fighting against the onset of despair and its despair
itself that will destroy us.
The only reason we can keep going is faith and hope.
I'm getting a whole songs of praise thing from this season.
I really am.
Well, when Kathleen received her telegram that Frank's been
careful.
Oh, yes.
When Ace finds her, again, it's desperation.
It's like, what's wrong?
What's happened?
Tell me, I'll do anything.
Yes, we've seen what that means.
Yeah, we, yes.
And she doesn't even finish reading the telegram before she just
grabs Kathleen and won't let go of her.
When you actually see that scene.
I think there's a little bit of a spoiler about their relationship
because Ace actually comes in at that hug.
I think it's a bit ladylike.
Underneath.
Yes, that's what I mean, right underneath, yes.
It looks like Kathleen is actually hugging Ace, like comforting
Ace. because of course she's her grandmother.
How thick is that?
She still doesn't work it out.
I mean come on.
Okay, I know it's necessary.
I'd like to think that the reason that she says, go back and stay
with my nan.
I mean, really, have you still not worked it out?
But she does.
I'd like to think that the flat that she goes to is empty because
the people are just away or there've been a bomb venom?
And it just happens within that literally probably 24 hour cycle.
She's moved in and the neighbours don't say anything because
everything's in turmoil.
And they're all doing it up indoors during the blitz anyway.
Everyone was at it like knives and sixpence rolling across the
floor.
Nobody really knew what was going on.
I actually assumed that her nan was her paternal grandmother.
Yeah, yeah.
But does that make sense too?
Well, I don't know.
I like to think she just came into an empty flat and started a new
life.
Yeah, that's how I read it as well.
But, okay, Richard, you say A should pick up on that.
In 1989, or I suppose 1990 here when you were watching.
Did you pick up on it before Fenrick revealed it?
Oh, gosh, it's hard to say that because we've seen, I can't
remember.
And I was coming back after it was I was at uni and so it was like
2nd or 3rd year and having, and we just loved this so much.
I think you're just involved with the narrative.
Look, yes, we all knew who she was because that's how these
stories play out.
But we're very forgiving of the characters involved in it.
And you're right.
There's so much tension going on.
She probably can't be she's got a lot happening for the young for
a young lass in this story.
You know what?
I think maybe if she hadn't found out the baby's name until the
baby was leaving because that scene early on with like her name's
Audrey, oh, I hate it. my mum's name.
That doesn't really add anything.
It's a bit on the nose, actually, isn't it?
It's like, you know, if as she's bundling into the car face, but I
don't even know her name.
Audrey.
And then, of course, Ace doesn't have time to think she's being
chased down by Gene and Phyllis and has to have faith.
And it could be Fenrick who said, Audrey, that's your mother's
name.
And we could have been told the name Audrey in a previous story
but then again, this story was designed to go out 1st this year
which is why Sylvester's wearing the duffle coat.
Yes, and why we get the... the reveal of his new little outfit.
But that's also, do you know what was Silv Stuffel coat?
He wore that on location previous year to keep warm.
So you just said, oh, I'll just keep it in.
I love it.
Oh, so it's there to reveal the new brand.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
And also, it has slightly floppier pockets in his field jacket, so
you can see his script page as well, Italy.
Because as he describes it, you know, if the left pocket's fuller
it's earlier in the shoot.
And if the right pocket's fuller, it's later in the shoot because
I just moved the pages.
This season was meant to be broadcast as Fenrick Battlefield
Ghostlight survival.
So, therefore, when Ace is talking to Audrey about, there was a
house where near where I grew up in Perivale that gave me the
creeps.
It was meant to be foreshadowing, whereas here it becomes a
reference to last week.
Thankfully, it still works.
Still really does work.
But it mostly works because of Corey Pullman.
Kathleen is just amazing as a volt face for older to play
against.
Yeah, you meet her, and then 2 seconds later, Millington's barking
at her, and she has that wonderful rambling bit of, oh, I thought
my cousin, this, that, the other, and she just really sells her
character in that moment.
I love Silv, almost picking Sophie up and saying, no, no, no, we're
not arguing.
We're not going to hit the base commander, Soph.
And we have the betrayal scene.
We've already had earlier on in the story and it's kind of there
as an Easter egg.
It's not essential to the plot, but when the hemovores attack the
church, the doctor says under his breath, Susan, Ian, Barbara
Vicki, Stephen, Dodo, Katerina, I don't know.
Sharon from Black Castle.
But that's the idea that the doctor has faith in his companions
from the old...
Do you know, I actually only think he gets as far as...
And then he just says faith, faith, faith, because Sylvester
couldn't be bothered now.
Yeah, it's a good list of companions.
Yeah, so we have that idea that the doctor has faith in his
companions, which the new series has written into the
characterisation.
You know, most recently we've seen Peter Capaldi saying to Bill
his doctor saying to Bill, there are 7000000000 idiots on this
planet, but occasionally there's someone like you and that's why I
put up with the rest of them.
You know?
So Ace then turns around at the end of this and has faith in the
doctor.
And unfortunately, the game is given away a bit because we cut to
Sylv, and he says the hemovore can't penetrate her psychic force.
Didn't you just say, could you come just come and stand over here
behind me?
Could you just go out and fetch me something from out there every
2nd time?
That would have been bad.
Let me just destroy you utterly.
That is actually the most heinous thing that happens to her, I
think, in the whole 3 years is he's bringing down of her.
And doesn't self-play it well.
Do you think he meant it just a teensy bit?
I don't quite buy it.
You know what I mean?
Like, and it would be good.
I was very careful watching it yesterday because, you know, it is
so pivotal and it would be so great if it totally worked, but it
really needs to be believable and it's not really believable
sadly.
Yeah, I think that cutting to silve saying the hemophore can't get
through.
That undermines it a bit because we then know what he's doing.
Whereas if it just had it been me a killer.
Yeah.
Because we've had that big lecture from her earlier saying you'd
never tell anyone anything.
And because when she said, I'll distract the guard, he's so
dismissive of her.
I think if we didn't get an insight into his mind there, it would
have been a bit more believable.
Yes, I agree.
For what it is and what we get on screen.
I think Sylv and Sophie perform it very well.
His coldness when he's saying, you know, killer, she's an
emotional cripple, of course I know she's your plaything.
You think I didn't know?
It's really well done.
It is really scary and we've often said it's hard for doctor
companions to get real emotion into their performance because
they're not really given the stuff.
But when Ace collapses.
You know, Sophie gives it a really, really good go in a bizarre
and unreal situation.
I actually like it better.
I think her best bit is where she yells at him when he tries to
drag her out and then she kind of remonstrates with him afterwards
for what he said.
I think she does really well there.
And I also think Sylvester's, you know, sorrow at having had to do
that. as well is really good.
Like, I think he does a great job. of that.
Yeah, I love the emotional connection, but it only works because
they've had 2 seasons to bring this together.
Yeah, absolutely.
I actually think that Ghostlight coming before Fenrick works
better than Ghostlight coming after Fenrick, because this scene
where he breaks her down and she forgives him.
If 2 weeks later, he had have taken her to that haunted house, done
it again. you've done it again.
Where...
Exactly.
Whereas, you know, we're given the impression that he respects her
more now, she dives into the water and comes up as a woman with
the shadows of her past dispelled.
Yeah, literal catharsis, a literal cleansing, yes.
Yeah.
You know, there's something slightly off about that ending with
dangerous undercurrents.
Not anymore.
Oh, everyone's dead.
It is just like that.
I actually think that speech is a little bit too on the nose as
well.
Yeah, it feels hurried, yeah.
Or sort of overwrought.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, it's a little bit sort of kids, they are little underwater.
Who knows what she was up to down there?
But it sort of clears the emotional decks in that relationship.
And so for the final story, They just go back and visit, you know
there's no manipulation.
There's no hidden agenda.
They're just going back to see how aces mates are getting on in
Perivale after all this time.
Yeah, exactly.
Like the evil they discover that's going on there, they literally
just discover when they land and it's the doctor going, there's
something weird going on. which is what we want.
People who do enjoy that scene with Silv and Sophie should really
listen to Big Finisher's adaptation of love and war.
Oh, yes, it's good. which ends with another scene where Ace
confronts the doctor and it just had me in floods.
They've had 30 years to work on these characters.
Yes.
As we record.
It's the 30th anniversary of Time and the Rani going out.
So they had...
They had 30 years to work on these characters.
And yeah, in in love and war.
There's, I won't spoil it, but there's just one question that Ace
asks the doctor.
And he gives her an answer that she cannot accept and she explains
why she cannot accept it.
And all the way through, Sophie is screaming.
And yet it's hard to perform through a scream.
But she manages it so well and he is in such anguish.
And it's it's kind of showing maybe he doesn't mend his way so
much after this.
They do revisit that theme too in the god complex, don't they?
where the doctor tries to destroy Amy's faith in him because
that's what the Minotaur thing feeds on.
And I think that's a little bit more successful, but partly
because the relationship between Amy and the doctor has been a bit
more toxic and ambiguous.
Yeah.
No, the gold complex definitely feels like an homage to the new
adventures into this season.
And also the Naimon.
And Paul Cornell, friend of, well, other podcasts.
Well, then, let's not, we're about to go on a final trip back to
Perivale.
So, do come back next week for survival.
In the meantime, you can find us online at flightthroughentirety
com, flight through entirety on Facebook and Apple Podcasts.
Please leave a 5 star review and FTE podcast on Twitter.
Over on Bondfinger.
We are just about to bid farewell to Pierce Brosnan as James
Bond.
You can find that at Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and
Apple Podcasts, and Bondfinger Cast on Twitter.
Until next time, may no one plants seeds in your face, which
sprout in storage.
Thank you very much for listening and good night.
Good night.
I've just realised that the VAC formed boob walls are actually the
TARDIS time monster walls just turned around.
That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bodderly, Brendan
Jones, and Richard Stone.
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, logo designed by Anthony
Wells.
This episode, Wall of Nipples, was recorded on the 30th of
September 2017.
The next episode will be released on the 5th of November.
According to Doctor Who Facts, after the curse of Fenrick, only
three stories have been set during the Second World War, the
Doctor Dances, Planet of Rationing, and the terror of Dame Vera
Lynn.
What do you think?
Did we want to talk about the hemophores at all?
They're blue.
It's a blue lady.
Jeez.
I think it's actually Denise, um, Parsons.
I just think it's Nicholas Parsons wife.
She was painting up blue, like colours before.
As we know, as Barry always said, the colour for monsters is
blue.
Yeah, that's right.
And, of course, 2 of Sylvester's.
Sylvester's 2 sons are in there.
Are they really?
They play it blue.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Joe and...
Cho and look them up.
Radcliffe.
James Radcliffe.
James, I think is one of them.
No, not Jim and Joe. Percy?
He's Percy.
Percy.
H Smith.
They're simple names.
This will go after the credit.
Yeah, I think so. simple names for simple.
Yes, yes.
There's too much in this.
You know, we can start talking about.
The runes and how, I don't want to talk about China's
translation.
So let's do, let's do Flight through Entirety, the worst idea in
the universe where we do an hour-long podcast about Cursor
Fenrik.
Every week for the rest of our lives.
Well, we, there's probably enough to talk about for if we do 4 or
5 of these, dear listener.
No, only 4 because otherwise they won't give us the money to do 14
next year, right?
That's right Okay, doesn't she?
Let's wrap it up.