Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety
the only Doctor Who podcast who knows exactly how dangerous a
single finger can be.
I'm Brendan.
I'm Nathan I'm Todd.
And my pussies come back looking like it's been dragged through a
hedge backwards.
It's one of those very special missions that requires all 4 of us
downtown Perivale in survival.
It's a true story, too.
Firstly, I would like to say, welcome back, Todd.
Bit away for quite a while.
It seems like ages, actually, but I'm here enjoying my chalk chip
Madeira cake and the plain Madeira cake.
Thank you, Brendan.
And there's other cakes as well, supplied by Richard, so it's cake
named for a long time.
No, no, no.
It was part of our original mission statement.
So it's kind of nice to come back to it.
A lot of things have come full circle, haven't they, on this
story?
It's nice that we're doing unearthly child again, is it?
Well, it's skulls and fleas and desultory London.
Yeah.
I think it's, I think it's great that it's set in modern London.
Yeah, like the original episode.
And rather than, you know, we have a companion who's who's
visiting London, just as Susan was visiting London, and we then go
to another world where, as you said, everyone's riddled with
fleas.
And his hair like Eileen White?
And tea.
And fire is very dangerous on this planet.
Before we get too deeply into survival, Todd, when we did Time and
the Rani, I asked Richard for his general views on the Colin Baker
era.
So seeing as you haven't been with us for the Sylvester era, but I
know you've been watching it, what are your thoughts on the
Sylvester era up till now?
No, I wasn't prepared for this.
I thought this was going to be in the retrospective.
What are my thoughts on it?
Well, after.
Enduring season 24.
Um, and this is my opinions of that season are very different from
the rest of the team here.
Very, very different, but I consider it to be a necessary evil
because without going into too much detail, Eric Saywood's gone
you've got a new script editor.
You've got John Nathan Turner taking a backseat.
There are things that I agree with you about.
I agree with you in terms of the fact that the tone is all over
the shop and it just doesn't work for me.
But behind the scenes, decisions have been made and that
serendipity stuff's happening.
Like at the end of the season, Bonnie had to say I'm going so that
Sophie could come and that influences the rest of it.
And from that point onwards, like, Rememons of the Daleks is
fantastic.
Happiness Patrol is out of this world.
I mean, the 2 of my favourite stories of all time.
Ghost Light and Kursa Fenrich are just, you know, amazing.
And the chemistry between Sylvester and Sophie, that energy in
season 25 is really nice and season 26, they're just so
comfortable with each other.
So I've been really enjoying those 4 particular stories.
Um, I can honestly say that Sylvester is very likeable, and I love
his sort of, his quite a moments with characters and then his
mischievousness or his mysteriousness that I think he does very
well.
Can't shout to save himself.
And sometimes the comedy goes too far, but, you know, he's
likeable, and I think that's something that I enjoy.
I never considered him to be my least favourite doctor, but I
never considered him to be my favourite doctor.
Right?
I've got more to ask Todd, but for the retrospective, on the
levels that, um, Sylvester achieves when he actually, how he
broaches that, and also what Todd thinks about the Mel and Silv, or
the Mel and the doctor and how that might have gone.
So that's more for the retrospective later, do listener.
Yeah, I might have a few things to say about season 24.
If you could see Podspace, I think you know he does.
Yeah, there might be a rant.
I warned people about that. podcast.
But you know what?
Like those 4 stories that I mentioned, if they were in the one
season, it would be unbeatable.
Like that's how good I think they are, right?
And and although...
Oh, and although Battlefield, Greater Show, and Nemesis are not up
there with them, there's certainly things in all of those stories
that I like.
I would say greater shows is my biggest disappointment.
Because we have listeners who say it's one of the greatest doctors
stories of all time.
It's one of my favourite McCoys, but it depends because there are
so many good ones.
Yeah, but it's hard to do.
So every time I watch Greater Show, I think it's going to be
really brilliant, but then I come away disappointed, and I might
talk about that in the retrospective, so an MS is just a pile of
crap, except for the accent, except for any scene with Fiona
Walker and the skinheads, which are, she is just phenomenal and so
entertaining, but the rest of it, Oh my god, just shit that away.
And of course, as I mentioned in our tweeting, Michael Kerrigan
the director of, no, he's not a director of Battlefield, is just, I
can see what the actors are doing with a script that has its
problems, but is also very entertaining.
I like Battlefield in spite of the director.
Yeah, right?
I don't think anyone's going to disagree with you.
Yeah, no, right.
But, you know, I think this season, the costume on Sylvester, just
things that just stick out.
I love it when he says, think like a physicist.
Like, that is, like, it's just a little moment that I love.
And, and the end of Ghostlight, when he says that line about, what
do you wish she would have done, she says, I wish I would have
blown it up instead, and he says, wicked.
That moment is just phenomenal.
Phil's rewriting. favourite moment.
I think it's possibly my favourite moment.
Like, it was filmed last, obviously, in the whole thing and I just
kind of, that's in the back of my mind.
Both were actually being filmed.
This one and Ghostlight, so there was a bit of backing, tuming and
throwing, according to production notes.
Well, they are in the they're in the same production blog.
So they've got the same direction.
I think it's really interesting.
Like, you know, with, at the beginning of the 80s, we have 8
stories that are very influenced by the script editor, Christopher
H.
Bidmead, and then here at the end, you've got 8 stories in these
in these 2 seasons, which are Stoke Carponal, and they're just
there's just the themes running through and, and, um, yeah, and
you know, I just enjoy.
I've been enjoying it.
Like it's effortless and when I don't like it.
Well, besides season 24, which talk about later.
You know, it's not because I really think performances are
terrible.
It's just, it's more the script or the direction.
Yeah, which is different from, yeah, I need to go back and listen
to your review of season 23 again, because I'm now thinking if
you're saying this now, does that mean I have to go back and watch
trial over time?
You know?
And getting to this point, I've discovered that I think that
Dominic Glynn.
Yeah, yeah.
This is just... phenomenal.
There you go. phenomenal.
And release, dear listener.
It's true isn't it?
And in these 14 episode seasons, like he was Mysterious Planet, 1st
one, and he's doing the last one.
Mysterious Planer is one of my all-time favourite scores and then
Dragonfire, I think, possibly might be one of my, might be my
favourite score of all time because it holds that story together
and the actual transitions between when it goes from the dark side
to the right side, that music in there is just...
There's lots of nods to Austin Wells in this.
Every time I listen to that score in Dragonfire, I'm blown away.
Happiness Patrol. amazing.
And then, well, we're now here with this and I think it's another
winner.
Yeah.
And of course, every time we mention Dominic Glenn, we must
mention his very kind permission for us to use his ultimate faux
soundtrack to score our multi-awward-winning time incorporated
report.
Should we go ourselves an award for that?
Yes, we did.
And that's not taking anything against Mark Ayres, who I think is
also really great.
But then there's that other person.
No one's mentioned the... the drum machine.
The multi-Jenny Laird Award winning...
Yes, yes, I will nominate him like, yeah, yeah.
Like, the worst scores in this entire era, and possibly, there's 2
of them that I think are the worst in the history of the show, and
that is Battlefield and Delton Battleman.
Oh, great, a great recap.
And the thing is, I know there's more coming next week in the
retrospective.
It's just to wet your appetite.
Just too late, listeners.
That's the right way to do this story because everything's in
reverse.
We've gone right back to the beginning.
So in fact, doing a retrospective before we start on the last
story is actually the way this story is already. coming across.
But I like with this story, is the fact that besides what we've
just briefly talked about with, you know, going back to Earth and
then you will not make fire or whatever, you also have the fact
that in the 80s, you have the master turning up at the beginning
of the 80s, like in that 1st season, and now here he is, this long
running character, like, you know, from season 8 also being here
at the end, it's sort of quite nice that it's that sort of wrap
up.
Even though it looks like he's, you know, been in an old people's
home and is incontinent and has gotten bad hair dye and all.
But he's acting really well in this.
You know, eyes, yellow teeth.
You know, he's a throw-in.
He wasn't in Monroe's original script.
She was one of the few things that she was that was required
required her to put in, and I think it's sublime.
And actually, I think it's only his best performance ever.
Yeah, I do.
Yeah, Cartmel says about her having to put the master in that the
production team was a bit worried because, you know, we've seen
what happens before when the master has to be inserted into
stories.
Like, like Mark of the Rani ware.
It's a tree.
Where, although, you know, he gets some fun scenes with Kate and
some fun scenes with colonies completely superfluous.
Andrew Cartmel has said why he thinks the master works so well in
this story is when...
Well, he's not a scarecrow.
And he's not in the bloody penguin suit.
But also, um...
Tim Burton's got a lot to answer, doesn't he?
But he thinks that Ronan Munro looked at the character and looked
at the themes of her story and thought, how can I mesh these 2
together?
And that's what happens with the master.
He's inextricably linked with the theme of survival and change and
corruption.
Can I throw another word in?
Patriarchy.
Oh, yes.
Because this, to me, is actually about boy's power and girl's
power.
And if I was going to actually draw it just to throw the ball in
Todd, what do you think?
That's also a pun because, you know, they throw balls to the
killing side.
Do you see what I did then?
But to me, this is direct parable, not just with the fall of the
Berlin Wall in 1989.
But that that fall was brought about by ladies functional business
and pussies.
This is actually about, I'm not the only one to say this.
This is actually a parable.
I'm thinking back to John Molino, one of the greatest people of
all time who used to do mashups of visuals with terrible music.
So he did that wonderful thing with Invasion of the Dinosaurs
we've referred to, where he put Jane Birkins Jetin over the score
of the over the visuals of the plastocene dinosaurs and they
looked like they were necking.
It was hilarious.
He also did it with lots of shots of ace jumping around and
advertisements for for ladies' personal protection items.
And this is, to me, actually about women and women's biology and
women's function as and the power and the and the release of women
as a primal thing.
And that was actually quite a big currency in the 80s in not just
in fiction, in fact, fan fiction, but in the polemics at
universities on feminist discourse.
This is, to me, very much about women's bodies and women's power
and that whole lovely woo woo natural thing about the environment
and the person being the same thing, which was also going back to
the Gaia references, which we were getting a lot of at the time.
The guy was a term that we were hearing as the planet and the
ecosystem is the one thing and we are part of that.
So this is by Ronan Monroe, of course, who wrote and wrote The
Eaters of Light, like last season in season 10.
So she's the only person to write for both iterations of the
show.
And both of her stories are really magical and really kind of
thematically rich.
And this one is super, as you said, about gender.
And so the theme survival, I think it's the 1st Doctor Who story
where the title is an abstract noun, that is just the theme of the
story.
It's the sort of thing that happens on other TV shows all the time
but we're used to having, you know, the horror of the terror of
the planet in space kind of titles for Doctor Who story.
So survival is really unusual.
Yeah.
You know how that came about, though, too, because JNT was
concerned there wasn't a monster in this.
And, you know, it was actually he that was saying bring Ainley
back in.
We still got him for one season.
You know, he's still had that contract.
So we're paying him.
So get him in here.
But I think it was a stroke of genius.
The women don't achieve that, like an Angie on the street, standing
in front of all those annuals.
You know, everything, including the labels on the cat food and the
annuals in the shop outside the shop where Ange is talking to
Ace.
They were all handpicked or handprinted for this production.
This is a whole...
Yeah, to be thematically involved.
The cats poster on the wall.
The women are powerless under this patriarchy. and you've got
people like the sergeant until they get to the place of the cats.
Julian Stanley Holloway, son Julian Holloway.
From up the Khyber.
He was in up the car.
Yes I know.
The thing is, with the gender politics in this, it's the women who
are right, and it's mostly the women who survive at the end of the
story.
You know, the master's fate is left ambiguous.
Midge is killed Sergeant Patterson is killed, and all those
characters have been saying all the way through Mite is right.
Whereas Ace and Kara, Ace and Kara just want to run and hunt, but
hunt to live and survive rather than it's the men who come in and
corrupt this feminine power because we only really meet Kara out
of the cheetah people.
But there is an implication that they are feminine because cats in
media are often seen as feminine, dogs are seen as masculine.
Ronan Monroe again in eaters of light has a very strong central
female role.
You know, the leader of the young Picts.
And also, when Bill falls in with the Romans, they're completely
fine with the fact that she's a woman.
Yeah.
Oh, it's like, oh, you're a woman.
Oh, oh, you only fancy women like, like, like Bob over there. only
fancies men.
How modern.
Yeah, it's like, oh, this thing, the survival of the fittest thing
is expressed in different ways among the male characters and the
female characters.
And we've talked in our ghost light episode about how survival of
the fittest, which is also a theme in Ghost Light, parallels that
kind of greed is good Thatcherst 80s thing where people saw
financial success and being able to exploit other people as
evidence that they were the fittest.
They survive.
The wasters go to the wall, the strong survive, you know, the weak
die in order to enable the strong to survive.
And the way that's played out among the men is, of course, through
violence and hierarchy, eventually Midge, in episode 3 comes back
and he's basically a barrow boy, you know, those sort of working
class people who end up working in the city as sort of, you know
stockbrokers and stuff and make a lot of money and he ends up with
a sharp suit and the sunglasses, he steals a motorcycle, and he
comes in, you know, looking incredibly sort of slick and rich.
So he is representing that kind, that strand of survival, which is
hierarchical, which is violent, but it's also dominated.
Yeah, but it's also financial.
Do you know what I mean?
It's social.
Whereas the women are also violent.
Like Cara kills that boy.
And that boy is weak, remember, because he doesn't want to be
violent towards the boy that he's fighting in episode one in the
self-defence class.
So he's weak because he cares.
It's like when the doctor says you don't mind losing your friend
you know, whereas the women enjoy their own physicality and that's
you know, even though they commit violence, the thing that they
they're exhilarated by running.
They're exhilarated by hunting.
You know, they're excited by the experience of their own
physicality.
And I think that, that it's really, really amazingly gendered and
super interesting and such an argument for getting women to write
for the program.
Because it's something that we've just never seen before.
Wow.
Okay. something to think about, really?
You know, I was just going to come in and say like, you know, it's
interesting how all the people chosen to be transported to all
these men 25 to 35 and they all end up dying.
Even Midge.
And we should reference the grooming that Midge undergoes under
the master's hand to get to where he, but all the old biddies, like
you know, the woman tapping its sylvester and get shoe cats, like
they don't get taken.
They're all, you know, just behind their neck.
Todd's looking at us when he says...
But I mean, no, I was thinking about this because like when I was
watching Curse of Fenwick, I felt that Fenwick was turning all the
women into hemovores, but a lot of the men who they encountered
got killed.
Like, so I was just thinking about that like in terms of those
sort of things.
When I was watching this for the live feet, when I was watching it
with James, the very 1st guy who gets taken, the guy who's washing
the car and calling out to his mum, Kathleen Bidmead, Kathleen
Bidmead.
Yes.
Chris Bid meets mum.
James just said something lines off.
And of course, the 1st guy who gets killed is gay.
I'm like, what do you mean?
He said, it's 1989.
He's a man about 30.
He lives with his mum.
He's out washing the car.
He's got a pink sponge.
You've got a pink sponge. always a giveaway.
And, you know, it's we are still in an era of coding.
When you see Midge's death, if I'm, you know, precursing that one
yeah, you know, with that fabulous motorcycle thing.
Spoiler alert, spoiler alert, where it appears that the doctor
just magics himself away.
I really like that bit, actually.
I mean, you know, and he's done his finger doorbell on everybody
else this season.
But Mitch doesn't appear to die so much of the injuries.
I think he's dying of a broken heart.
Yes, the masters dropped him.
Yeah, yeah, he has failed and the master tells him to die. really
sinister.
You're too old for me now, love.
Well, you know what?
In the making of Will Barton, who played Midge, does say that...
But between takes out on, out on the common, they were, he was
sitting in the car with Anthony Anley listening to the cricket
because, of course, Anthony Anley was all about cricket.
And Sylvester's like, you know, you didn't really get to know
Anthony Ainley and he was just as scary off cameras.
Yes, he was.
Yeah, that was mostly the wig, though, per course, to Peter
Davidson.
But he really didn't connect with people.
Yeah, but you cut to Sophie Aldred and she says, yeah, you didn't
connect with people.
But he said to me, Sophie, you're my friend, which I always
thought was, oh, and I think it's because I was into cricket and
we'd set up the rehearsal rooms with stumps at either end at
lunchtime and we play, and you know, I didn't realise, but I
became Anthony's friend through that.
And of course, Anthony, Sylvester, and Sophie all share the same
birthday.
And it happened during production.
I don't want astrology, to be true.
Stop it.
But, you know, of course, like, I think Ainley was 10 years older
than Silv, and Sophie was 20 years younger and still is, or about
that, possibly less, because I think...
It's hard to tell with the upper middle class.
Yeah, no, they don't age the same way there is.
Last chance to say.
Oh, no.
There's a few more.
Sophie does admit in the making off of this.
I think a should have been more street as she puts it, but the BBC
wouldn't have it, much like the original title.
Or Dodo.
Yeah, well, that's just Dodo.
Nothing to do with the accent.
No, you can't do it with that accent.
Oh, okay, I'll do it like this.
No, no, no, you don't understand.
You.
You're gone, love.
But the original title of the story was, of course, Cat Flap.
Richard.
It's just a, well, apparently this week, dear listener, segueing
but not very, not at all.
A black hole has been seen to actually emit matter for the very
1st time.
So no, it's not something I need to fall into, right?
Was that Erica Betts?
No, NASA.
Same difference though, just as much of a void.
But yeah, yeah, it turns out.
Well, Andrew Cartmell got the script for Cat Flap and thought, we
can't get Kenneth Williams.
But Julian Holloway was in...
So he gets to the script for Cat Flap and he'd been trying to get
Ronan Monroe for ages.
She's already done 4 productions for the BBC, 4 plays.
But she was still on the list of young emerging talents being a
lady person.
So she was up for the grant thing and that she would, therefore
she was part of Carmel's Catch Net because he was only using
writers from that little pool that they had and that they were
identified and he was very keen to use her.
I'm really glad he did Yeah, well, so am I, because he got the
script and saw the title Cat Flap and thought, oh, okay, she still
thinks Doctor Who is just for kids.
She's not taking it seriously, but as he read it, he suddenly
realised the meaning of the title cat flap is, it can let your cat
out, but it can let things in.
And that was her concept.
The reason they didn't go with it is actually related.
It's rude.
But it's also related to the happiness patrol.
Because during season 25, JNT was still giving information to
fandom, like, these are the story titles coming up.
And when there's a story called the Happiness Patrol, fans were
outraged.
No, you're turning it into a joke, how dare you, blah, blah.
So he said to Carmel, look quite beyond any innuendo, I like the
title, I like the idea, but the fans will backlash against it, and
that'll create negative press.
So let's go with the title that's ambiguous, but sums up the tone
and that's where survival comes in.
They could have called it cat flap of death.
Oh yeah, that's the thing.
Out of death at the end, the fans are fine.
Cake of death.
Okay, Gordef.
Cat flap of fear would have actually...
Fear is awesome.
And really, and far more closer to the narrative, because I think
we're actually all fearing what the lady's secret powers are.
It's interesting how in, um, her story for series 10.
She also has that portal where things can come out, can go back in
as well.
I mean, this is like Narnia, isn't it?
I mean, this is that sort of children's literature thing. where
there's a magical world that you get transported to and it is
essentially magic.
You know, the idea that cats are planet hopping around the place
taking people home to another planet to feed, you know, their
cheetah masters, all of that sort of stuff is nonsense.
And so is the planet's breaking up because it's a metaphor for the
cheetahs fighting and stuff.
You know, that's how magic works.
The other things that we happen to have been doing.
Well, yeah, and maybe Cold War, you know, the idea that human
conflict could destroy the world is, you know, pretty much a
given.
But the whole thing works the way that magic works.
So they're transported to another planet to another world where
there are dressed up animals and we talked about that in
connection with ghost light.
We haven't mentioned hail and pace yet, have we?
No.
But the idea that, you know, that it's a magical world with
dressed animals.
I think it's, it's, I love that logic for Doctor Who, and it's
something that, you know, the show.
They were very pettable though, weren't they?
It does actually look like a Furby convention, doesn't it?
I actually quite like them.
There's one that we used to call pumpkin heads. who has a little
roundhead who I think he's the one he's the one who's eating like
eating some carcass.
Some lovingly constructed horse carcass.
I am at your command.
Oh, no, a cheetah.
Sorry.
Pumpkin head.
Oh, crack me up.
Speaking of sort of pumpkin heady type things.
There is the animatronic cat. which I'm sure.
Well, I think it's pretty ropey, but for 1989.
I actually thought it was pretty good at the time.
It's little motors inside it.
Perhaps at the time.
Now I look at it and I just laugh.
I think it keep thinking of Sabrina, the teenage witch, and that's
7 years later.
The thing I like about it is that it gets to turn to the camera
and its mouth opens and it bears its fangs and then Dominic Glynn
adds a sound to it.
That looks fabulous and you could never have achieved that with a
real cat.
It doesn't look real for a second.
Yeah, but just the fact that it turns to camera and looks
terrifying is really good.
There's one shot later where they achieve a close-up of a kitling
before it transports someone with a real cat and that's much less
effective, I think.
Yeah, pretty much when they when Alan Waring went down to the
workshop to see the cat, he's like, right, we need to get a real
cat as well.
And there is on the DVD.
There are some like, not exactly outtakes, not bloopers, but
setting up for a shot.
The shot where the master's walking into the youth centre. has got
the cat over his shoulder.
And so you get Alan Waring saying to the cat's handler, okay, we'd
like the cat's face to be about here.
So she puts it up on Anthony Ainley and he sort of puts his hand
around it and she says to him, yeah, just put your, just put your
hand behind their head, but her head there.
Don't press too hard.
Oh, she's a difficult bugger.
Don't you walk?
The cat or the woman?
The woman the woman walks off, half to say, oh, it's a difficult
bugger.
Was she referring to only?
Is that recorded?
She would have said she's a different one.
She was referring to it.
Oh, get her.
I will say, though, as as you know, Richard, Rod, my partner, is a
huge fan of cats.
He has had many cats over the years.
He hates the animatronic cat in this, but not for the reasons you
might think.
He has no problem with the special effects because he's like, you
know, it's Doctor Who.
They did the best they could.
Now what he has a problem with is the villainising of black cats.
Because he has owned many black cats.
We hitting all our memes today.
He's owned many black cats and they're lovely, but he also knows
they sort of end up in shelters and people don't take them because
of things like this and Salem's lot.
So the thing is, as soon as that happened in episode one, I don't
think he's seen this one before because he gave up on Sylvan
Sophie the 1st time around.
But 5 minutes into episode one, he just tends to up and he never
he never relaxed throughout the rest of the story.
It was just 3 out of 10.
So I don't, yeah, I don't think he was in a frame of mind to watch
the rest of the story because he's just like, nah, nah, you're
making fun of a black cat.
I'm out.
It's an interesting take.
I think a lot of viewers had the same reaction at the time as well
because one of those things that you've actually got to be either
a student in the 80s or just have friends who are just like the
people in the story or the people around you watching it, who are
fans to get it because it's all metaphor.
Yeah.
And in a way that when we look back on the last 3 seasons, maybe
every single story was, even the ones we didn't identify as such
starting off.
We've already covered time in the Rani as being a very strong
one.
Well, I think that this one is much, much more metaphorical than
anything that we've done before.
Very much so.
It's all allegory, isn't it?
Yeah, and that just thematic richness that we've identified.
And I think, you know, it's a strong contender for a real
transition into where the show is when it comes back.
Like, I think that this is...
Segway is really nice.
Yeah, anyway, just stylistically, it really falls into a pattern.
Well, that it's not about an alien invasion, particularly or
anything like that, that it is about a concept and an idea.
It's not a science fiction story in any sort of real sense.
And it features real people, like living on a council estate.
We go up to, you know, midges flat and there's our 1st tiny little
girl.
Who's later in, what is it, Emmerdale?
Emmerdale, as the as the sex symbol, bitch, vixen.
That makes me feel really old.
She's well known for doing, you know, calendars with farm animals
but not in a nice way.
Yes, we do need to talk about that.
Well, there's some reality, but there's also a character called
Fly, who's apparently married Darth Bay Duck.
Do remember that moment?
Brain dead plumber.
Yeah, he's a brain dead plumber.
I think Padme must have just been getting stroppy.
You sort of bugger off.
She's probably off with the cheetah chatty folk right now.
Sand is so coarse.
It's another metaphor.
You ask my cat.
My pussy.
She'll only use paper products.
Besides the impossible escape from the motorbike explosion, which
is impossible, and you can say it lands on some sofas.
Yeah, like how far away?
Like, 1000 metres away?
He teleports himself. so beautiful, magic. flies, it's cannon.
Yeah, city of death.
He's done it in Paris.
You know the original scene, don't you, Todd?
What?
They were going to kick Midge to death.
No, that's money.
That's in Monroe's original squid.
No, they're talking to him. is much more effective.
Besides that motorbike scene, which I just roll my eyes at, I have
a problem with Patterson and his gang of thugs or whatever you
want to call them.
I just find a lot of those sequences really, I find embarrassing.
You're a bit grain chill, aren't they?
And I guess it's just at the time being at the end of high school
and we had Cadet Corps and we had like sergeant people like that
and I just kind of, like, no, no, every scene where he's going off
and they're all there and I just cringe through it.
I just do.
I just don't, dialogue or whatever it is, just doesn't resonate
with me.
And then you've got this gang, one of who looks like he's like the
lead singer from that band wearing his hat backwards, EMF or
something, you know, unbelievable.
Like, it's just unbelievable.
Like I just go, yeah, I just, you know, that's the one thing that
I just kind of go, well, that's so nice.
There's a slight sort of casting for prettiness that's coming in
in that gang.
Yeah, and and the thing is, you look at all of them and they are
all physically fit, you know, but...
You know, I don't...
If there was any more wind on that field, they'd all just blow
away.
There's there's no there's no muscle. don't do them And it's kind
of like, but they seem to be scripted to be, if you like, a
physical match for the cheetahs.
You know, they are the analogue for the cheaters in our world.
And even the scene where they're advancing on Ace, and Sophie's
giving it her all, like, you know, somebody help me.
She's selling it and then you cut back to bloody pipe cleaner
patrol coming towards you.
I clean patrol.
And, you know, I'm not, I don't want to be insulting to anyone who
is fit in that way.
That's fine.
It's just, it doesn't quite match the intent.
Something I love, though, is this is kind of the unexpected end of
a loose trilogy of stories, exploring ace's growth.
So in the curse of Fenrick, You know, I'm not a little girl
anymore.
And then Ghostlight is about her confronting fears of her past.
And this kind of is about where she might go in the future because
the whole her whole through line in this is if she is violent.
That will be her life forever and she will always be violent and
she will lose herself.
And the thing is, we have seen her character.
She likes fire.
She likes explosions in the original script for this.
She puts Kara's body on a funeral pyre and burns it, and that was
Ronan Monroe saying, hey, in your character outline, she likes Big
Bangs.
She likes fire.
I know she's burnt down a house.
And that was that was changed because they didn't want.
I suppose they didn't want to encourage emulation of that.
You know, kids playing fireable.
Exactly.
But it's interesting that over the course of this season, Ace has
become less violent than she was in season 25.
In Battlefield, of course, you know, she gets excited about
blowing up a spaceship.
She blows up a wall in Fenwrick, but that's just so they can get
through.
And when she distracts a guard in Fenrick.
It's not about going up and clobbering him from behind.
It's about drawing him away and flirting with him and being
mysterious and, you know, as she says, I'm not a little girl.
In ghost light, she actually implores control.
No, don't burn the house down.
That's what I did and that was a mistake.
But then she says I would have blown it up.
So there's still that tension there.
She could go either way.
Well, I mean, she enjoys the influence of being a cheater. like
you know, she loves that.
It's exhilarating for her.
But that thing you say about if she embraces violence, that'll be
her destiny.
Like there's a real kind of social commentary in that.
It's those boys.
I mean, Patterson is teaching them that the way to survive is
through violence.
Yeah, yeah, that's how that's how you survive.
That's the whole purpose of that self-defence class.
Yeah, and the boy at the beginning who refuses to, if you like
deliver the killing blow to his opponent, he's saying, well, I've
already beaten him.
He's subdued.
Why do I need to inflict more pain?
And in fact, he does get killed by the cheater and partly because
of that, but also partly because he warns Ace about the cheetah.
So because he cares for other people, he doesn't survive.
You know, it's the joke that Halen Pace tell in the supermarket
about outrunning the lion and the doctor says, well, that works
really well, provided you don't mind losing your friend.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so there's a tension between this survival of the fittest
thing and altruism or friendship.
I like hail and pace in this.
I think they're really appropriately placed.
It's really, it's really opposite to the giant and perfect casting
for perfect timing.
The odd thing, they were a double act of 2 straight men.
So they're really antithetical to all of the other stuff that's
happening in this, but they're perfect for that side of it because
this is all about dualities and opposites.
It might have been distracting stunt casting at the time, but
given that they've completely fallen out of our consciousness and
disappeared, you know, from the record.
It actually doesn't matter.
And they do work quite well together.
I think that scene with Sylvester and them is terrific.
It could have equally been done with Victoria Wood.
And, I was going to say, her best mate, Julie.
Julie Walters, because that and that would have been really
fabulous, but I think we're probably a bit busy.
I kind of like the fact that they're kind of tired, middle-aged
men.
And they therefore reflect the pair of all of...
Sylvester shopping.
I do too.
I think with the doctor shopping, you know, doctor ever gone
shopping?
Yeah, he ever has. silly and wonderful.
It's that's leading into the new series.
It's showing it's in the last Doctor Who story ever.
This suburban environment where we've never seen the doctor
operate at all before.
I think a lot of people complain about Sylvester in episode one
spooning out the cat food onto the street and hiding in that
woman's front garden.
That's hilarious.
Go, wait, dog.
And she's going, tap, that old bitty keeps going. think it's
hilarious.
Well, I think the dog is really funny, the wrong cat, you know, and
Sophie walking away. and then just looking at him with just out of
contempt and shaking her head at how stupid he is.
I've lived lived that.
I spent 4 days out at Rudy Hill and Mount Drewitt hunting for my
very own lost pussy, which I'm very happy to say he's now been
returned to us, as it turns out, through the power of visionary
prayer. seriously. lovely Vicky and her name is Vicky Deary.
Oh, brilliant. saw the posters and prayed and said I was
compelled.
I had to go and she found her in exactly where she said the pic.
Now, everyone else thinks, of course, she had an erratic for 4
days.
But the rest of us.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So no, this is very powerful story right now.
So many of us.
You know, though, really, there's a lot of Hammer horror in this
as well.
Oh, yeah, I mean, you know, you've got...
They just don't happen to be lesbian vampires, but apart from
anything else, what did one lesbian vampire say to another lesbian
vampire online?
I don't know.
I mean, face pics or an ain't happening.
They never met.
Well, I'm very glad I don't have to use the girl from Epanema on
that bit because I don't get it.
Is that part of the joke as well?
I didn't hear that version.
For me, the hail and pace bit was fascinating because at the time
this went out and also still a few years later, they had, they
were big news and they had a weekly sketch comedy show, which no
one watched that we know.
My parents watched it and I was allowed to stay up and watch it.
That's the thing with my folks.
So were happy with me watching, if you like, adult content or
adult humour.
So long as they were there to explain anything.
And there were scientists.
So if it was about sex, I got a vivid explanation.
With Hale and Pace, it was like Doctor Who had suddenly stepped
into another TV show.
It was like Doctor Who had stepped into a hail and pace sketch
which I absolutely loved.
More of that next season.
Oh, wait, yes.
No, we do have another season after this now. it's not like the
90s And for that reason I always accepted it.
Like, you know, if they had been sort of main characters
throughout, I think that wouldn't have worked because I've never
seen them in dramatic roles.
I think Gareth Hale has done some dramatic work since, but I've
never seen any of that.
But as sort of a single scene and then delivering the punchline
where the doctor walks out without paying and it's like, have you
forgot something?
Money.
No, it's not that.
And he just shakes his head and walks off.
I actually love the bit of that scene where the camera is the
Kitling's viewpoint. looking from inside the shelf at Sylvester
and he points to it and then the camera rushes out at him and then
it's the cat.
And I think there's some incredible, incredible direction in
this.
And one of my standout things that they do is when the Kitling
sees someone just before transporting them.
The camera goes up on the crane, and it's initially just a neutral
viewpoint.
But by the time it reaches the top of the crane, it's become the
point of view shot of a cheater person during the course. of the
one shot.
And the person, you know, sees it and regards the camera and runs
off.
So it's such an incredible choice.
And then when there's that flash, we never stay on the same camera
shot, like the flash when someone disappears coincides with a
complete change of perspective from the point of view of the
camera.
Because the perspective character is now gone.
Yeah, it's really clever.
Yeah, I like that direction.
Alan Waring was chosen for this specifically because he saved
Greater Show in the Galaxy.
Yeah.
But with Greater Show in the Galaxy, he felt that with the
problems, he might be blamed for that.
So when he was invited back, he was delighted and immediately
accepted it because he's like, you know, I liked working on it, but
we didn't do everything I wanted and I thought, well, you know
that's it for Doctor Who.
For me, for Doctor Who.
And then he's asked back to do 50% more, 2 stories.
Can you do basically our biggie?
And it's actually because the production team were really happy
with his work because not only did he make a story in very
difficult circumstances, but it also looked great.
Yeah, he's, I think he's the best director.
I think I've said this before of this era.
I think of the 80s, the 3 standout directors are, you know, him
Graham Harper.
And I've still got a soft spot for love at Bigford.
Oh yes, of course.
Yeah.
Love and love it.
Bigford just bends his arm back till it breaks off, doesn't he?
So ratings. 5000000 for the 1st episode and 89th for the week.
That's the highest rating of the season and placing of the season
as well.
And then 4.8 and then 5000000 and this is the only story that hits
5000000 this season.
It's, At least it goes out like with half decent rating.
Yeah, yeah, you know.
I mean, last year, the lowest rating was 4.8, you know, so, but
here it's sort of like at the top of the scale.
And, and, and so...
But it was also being seen and not getting any publicity, but
still known and talked about, and the hail and post thing
certainly helped.
But at the time, we were not there yet, but it wasn't so much that
the BBC wanted to kill it.
It was what was going on within the BBC dying itself as to what it
had always been.
It was still pulling in over twice in the revenue in both
merchandising and overseas sales than it cost to make.
So it wasn't actually, we've always talked about it as being Mile
Michael Grade's death wish to see this gone.
Well, Michael Grade's gone.
So we've got John Burt.
It's like a bird with expectorance, but who had very strong ideas
about the BBC being all about news and everything else being made
outside because that's what Tory Britton wanted to do.
Everything was made out of house.
So, of course, it was now Doctor Who was up for grabs, and we'll
get onto that because there was a lot going on.
But it wasn't, it wasn't seen as the death of the show.
They just...
I don't think they knew what to do with it.
No, they were determined that they wanted someone else to pick up
all the tabs and they would just bring the money in themselves
which is a very neo Conway of seeing art.
Funny what happens to art when you do that though.
Yeah, Peter Cregin, who was head of series and serials at the
time.
He's the one who made the final decision, but it was always his
perspective that it would come back in 1992 or 1993 once they'd
found a new producer and a new script editor.
And we might remember that back around Trial of a Timelord, I said
that Terence Dudley was willing to take over the Reigns as
producer.
Thank God, that didn't happen.
So was Terry Nation, for God's sake.
He set up his own little company to try and do it with Jerry Davis
you imagine?
There was even talk of Verity Lambert's production.
Yeah, cinema verity.
Cinema verity was the only one being taken for as real and it's
because she's not, she wasn't in any of the publicity at the time
talking about it because there were background deals going on with
her to bring Pertwee back. aren't all of those?
I thought all of those discussions like with those deterioration
all of them happened like 1990, 91.
I thought that's when it was all happening.
CBS as well.
We were the obvious contender.
There's never a cancellation announcement, is there?
No, no.
Yeah, yeah.
We were just waiting for it to come back.
The agony of it, do you remember?
Every single month you go out and buy Doctor Who Monthly.
Where is he there?
Is he there?
Didn't Sylvester sign a contract for another season?
Yes, yes, he did.
So midway through the 2nd season because I think he'd signed a
contract for 2 because the BBC were wary of another Colin Baker
situation where they wanted to get rid of the actor.
Yes.
No offence, Silv, but...
No, exactly.
And the thing is, Silv was perfectly happy to only sign 2 years
because JNT came up to and said, we'd like you to do a 3rd year
and Silv says, well, you know, Peter and Patrick both said to me 3
years.
And John said, But we'd like you to do a 3rd year and a 4th year
and if you don't do a 4th year, the show will just end with this
season.
And Silv just kind of went, well, I can't be the one who is
responsible for that.
But Silv also then said, right, let's talk about where this
character is going and why we get a bit more arcing this season is
because they were leading into stuff next season, which Cartmel
and Ben Aronovich both say, look, we had written 4 scenes that we
wanted to put in episodes.
In no way did we have. storylines or breakdowns.
Here are writers we were thinking about, et cetera, et cetera.
But yeah, so Silv had signed up for a 4th year.
I don't think it was a um, a pay or play contract, so he didn't
get paid for the following season.
Sophie hadn't signed on, but it was understood she would only do
half of the next year and then be written out.
However, at this point, unlike with trial, when Terrence Dudley
was sounded out as being producer, John Nathan Turner was actually
offered it on the job at last.
So, you know, he's been trying to leave for 5 years and the BBC
keeps saying to him, no, you're still on doctor.
We're not offering you anything else.
It was a job in the BBC canteen to be fair.
It was pretty.
What was it?
It was, it was producing Bergerac.
Wow.
Which was a big show.
Yeah, exactly.
And I think, you know, in that sense, the BBC did actually
acknowledge, you know what?
We've been trying to kill this show for 5 years, but this but this
guy has kept it afloat.
He can do stuff.
And the thing is, John Nathan Turner being John Nathan Turner.
His reaction was, ah, Bergerac.
Set in Jersey with John Nettles.
Don't particularly like John Nettles.
So, and I don't particularly like Jersey.
So I'll do it if we can get rid of John Nagels and move it out of
Jersey.
He came back and said that to Andrew Carp, they're like, oh, they
offered me this, but I'm staying on Doctor Who.
And Andrew Cumpton was like years later he said to me, probably
should have gone to Jersey and Andrew's like, yes, you should have
because you would have taken me with you.
Because Cartmel was kind of sounding out either Colin Brake, who
went on to write Doctor Who novels or Ben Aronovich as his
possible successor.
Ben Aronovich would never have got the script.
No, he would have lost them.
But it is in the wash with his son.
It's interesting how he's standing out people because something
that we commented about so often.
Like, suddenly it's like, 0 my goodness, who's going to come in
and actually script edit, like we're suddenly at this point.
And succession planning.
What I can't will go on to do.
Did he script anything else of significance?
He went on to casualty after this.
Which was quite a big thing.
And that was the thing.
The doctor production office stayed open, I believe, for a year
after survival went out with JNT there and a skeleton staff.
And a few months after Doctor Who wasn't cancelled, but nobody
knew what was happening.
That's when Cartmel got the offer of casualty and he went to JNT
and said, look, what should I do?
And JNT said, you've got to work. and it's a good opportunity for
you.
Go, do it.
You know, if Doctor Who comes up will figure something out, but at
that point, even JNT, like, doesn't look good.
They must have had some idea that this was a possible ending
because the whole of survival is kind of lyrical and poetic and
the dialogue is not realistic and you do have that long final
scene where the doctor's absent, then Sophie becomes the doctor.
You know, she gets her his hat and his umbrella.
And then finally the doctor comes back.
You know, there's closure, she's decided the TARDIS is her home
and not pair of ale.
And then they walk off arm in arm.
Which was meant to be shot against a sunset, wearing had timed
that so carefully that that, the thing for tea.
So they were aware that was coming up.
It wasn't a complete afterthought.
But because the makeup lady who I won't mention.
Spent so much time faffing around with Lisa Bowman's hair.
But yeah, that's why that thing just went on so long.
And they were so tight for time.
They were getting temperatures of over 40 degrees, 110.
Yeah, they were expecting it to be warm and it was the same sand
pit they shot, greater show in.
But it was actually freakishly warm for an English summer.
So Lisa Bowman's cheetah person head, if you like, was a hero
cheetah person head, but then you had a whole bunch of less well
fitted ones, which were twice.
They were mostly made of asbestos.
Yeah, they were twice the weight and twice as heavy.
So Lisa Bowman is kind of like, it was hot for me, but then you've
got all these extras over here getting paid tuppence.
With one famous girl said, that's it.
I'm buggering off and left, walked off the set. pull a costume
off.
We just watched Sylvester McCoy interviewed about that.
And his fanciful recollection of it was that the actor in question
didn't remember that the only thing she was wearing under the
costume was a tiny G string and then she walked off into the
sunset with nothing on but a G string.
And I think that that sounds fairly implausible.
Sylvester, that's how Sylvester likes to remember it.
Is that a Doctor Who fact?
Like, like the asbestos headset.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I look forward to reading about this. on Twitter or whatever, very
soon.
Definitively true.
So, so, um, so the cheetah women of survival, artist Sylvester
McCoy as the cyberman in Silver Nemesis, artist.
Oh, my goodness.
We wish, but what Nathan's saying is really lovely and really true
and I've forgotten that, even though I've just watched it again
that yes, Ace becomes the Romana or the doctor for that little
moment, which is kind of like presaging rose and how she has more
than a quality in the 1st story coming.
Well, I think she becomes the doctor because she has to learn not
to use violence to solve the problem, you know.
And so she's, when she says...
And they both have the same struggle, both a doctor and ace.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
When she's saying please help me.
It's not like Ace couldn't beat the crap out of all of those
skinny, you know, guys.
It's that she doesn't want to find. help me because I can't find.
We see it as being casting because that's all you could get in the
80s because nobody went to the gym in the late 80s.
But that's right.
No, maybe it was, well, yes, maybe there's just a bit of
serendipity, like everything else.
Well, I think also that's the look that denoted fitness in the
time.
You know, the jogging craze, milk causes jogging and everyone
knows that jogging gives you heart attacks, but, you know, that
was the typical look.
Now, like the sort of desire look now that you see on all the of
the men's fitness magazines is the Chris Hemsworth Jason Momoa
model.
Much, much like us here on this podcast.
Especially after eating this wonderful cake.
I'm Jason Mimosa. that a drink?
Jason Momoa is the new Aquaman and Carl Drago from Game of
Thrones.
And he was in Stargate Atlantis.
I have seen a picture graph of the Aquaman thing.
I just thought he was another Kardashian.
All that hair.
Pouting.
Because we didn't have the internet, and we only had like certain
sources of information about the show.
Throughout this entire season, I was very worried that Ace was
going to be killed off, right?
Not like now we sort of know when actors are leaving and all that
sort of thing, so you know that something's going to happen.
So I actually was expecting, in this final episode, one of the 2
main characters possibly to die, either be the doctor or A. So
when we have the motorcycle thing or when she's going to go on it
I was having heart palpitations that, you know, this is it, you
know?
It's just very interesting, like very different from now.
Yeah, even knowing now that that doesn't happen.
You get that sense from those final scenes.
It is particularly doom laden.
And yeah, the motorcycle stunt is terrible.
And of course, they lost the services of tip tipping because they
used stunt driver Eddie Kidd, who wasn't a member, I think, of
equity.
And Tip said, you know, this isn't properly covered by insurance.
I am not just the stunt guy, I'm the stunt arranger.
And he did it, but then he walked off.
He said, I'll do this one, so you get the shot, but that's my end
with the show.
And of course, he didn't live long after this.
A few years later, he died doing a stunt.
Due to a gypsy curse from JNT.
He's in aliens.
And he is in Batman.
It was a parachute accident that tore him off.
Was it after it was it wasn't during the Batman?
No, no.
I think it was around 1992 on like a rescue 911 style show.
So, yeah, he was doing a reenactment of a parachute accident and
his shoot, failed to deploy.
But yeah, there is a certain feeling of doom there and there's the
wonderful confrontation between Sylvan Anthony.
And I think of all the doctors that Anthony's worked with.
He has actually has the best chemistry with silv.
We get that wonderful quiet scene with them in the ruins talking
about what the planet's like.
And neither of them are shouting at each other or snarling.
And so, you know, with Davidson, Davidson, of course, did the
Breathy shouty thing and Ainley did the sort of snarling because
the directors were always telling him to ham it up with Colin.
He didn't get much of a fair goat with Colin, really, because Kate
was there and then in Ultimate though, he doesn't get too much.
So he gets some real stuff too, no pun intended. sink his teeth
into.
Can I ask a question?
So at the end of this, like they're fighting on that mat and the
doctor goes, if we fight like animals with dialogue animals.
And then he, like, he raises that bone or whatever the skull is to
either bash the master, whatever.
And then he gets transported back to the Tartars.
Now I've always gone, well, why?
Oh, well, I think at that point he's got the yellow eyes because
he's being drawn into fighting.
Remember violence on that planet causes you to be possessed by the
planet?
And so because he's got the yellow eyes, he can transport himself
home.
But don't you have to be running?
Doesn't somebody have to have looped you?
No, no, no, no.
No.
So he loops Midge because Midge is turning into a wild animal.
So it's so he can piggyback on Midge if you like.
Well, it's not just been done before.
Like when Kara or somebody else comes, they're going hunting.
Yeah, no, I think that's okay.
I think that sort of weird music video clip scene.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is like massively over kind of produced
with all of those sort of video effects and stuff.
I think it works terrifically well because what it does is it
takes an instance of violence where the doctor and the master are
trying physically to kill one another and it makes it real.
Like it's a metaphor for that struggle.
And he rejects that struggle, which just makes it right that he
should leave that scene.
Yeah, and and also, you know, he gets teleported home.
He gets teleported to the TARDIS, but also, interestingly, he gets
teleported to a suburban street in London.
Yeah, which he we haven't seen since Hand of Fear, with the Tartar
sonor.
Suburban Street Corner. right.
Yeah, no we really haven't.
But also, nice parallel with like the new series where we're often
in suburban streets in London.
So what you were saying before, Nathan, about, you know, this
moving towards what we see in the new series, it very much is like
present day, thematic issues and locate.
And yeah, Russell T. Davies has gone on record as saying, yeah
what Andrew Cartmel and Silv and Sophie and JNT were doing in the
last few years, that has set up what we're doing now.
And also, too, with incidental music, like the themes running
through the whole episodes and building and, you know, that sort
of thing, which is what Murray Gold does.
Yeah.
But yeah, that that walk off at the end, I believe that the
production team knew, there might be another hiatus is what they
were told.
They didn't tell the actors that for several months.
So that scene was seen as, this is our season finale, like Doctor
Who Are You was meant to be for season 25.
It's kind of this is a nice moment to close out the season, but it
was also seen as, look, if we're away for a while, this tells the
audience that our characters are still out having adventures and
what have you.
And it, look, I 1st watched this, I think, around 9293.
It was a few years later.
So we're talking 15 years ago, 25 years ago.
Ah, you forgot the 90s.
We all did. 25 years ago.
I watched this and still when I watch it now.
I have a little cry at the end of that bit.
Not just because I know what it represents because, of course, we
have the new series now and we know it's back.
But because we've had all this stuff about the series telling us
again that the doctor should stand against violence, even if he
uses it occasionally, he comes to his senses and that saves him.
But also it tells us what their story is about.
It's about going off and seeing fabulous places.
It's about fighting injustice.
And it's also about having cups of tea because this is British, god
damn it.
But it's also that small beautiful things.
Do you know what I mean?
It's Sylvester's well-repared meal.
And of course, you know, no one ever has a well-prepared meal in
the Eric's Awood era.
But here we do actually have just real proper domestic things, you
know, going to the pub, seeing people in the street, you know
kicking a football around the top of Horsenden Hill.
Like this is really the 1st story set.
It's still kind of the TV real world, but it is set in the real
world.
It's like Doctor Who finally, for the 1st time, is set in the
actual present day in an actual real place.
Well, Retardis hasn't been seen in present day London since Attack
of the Cybermen, has it?
Yeah, think you're right.
So we've had and then hand a few in the streets, if everyone's
going, check, check, check, check.
Very briefly in Sylvan Nemesis, but not in any meaningful sort of
way.
Like, it doesn't interact with the culture, like it does.
Is it on a London street?
Not in London, though.
It's in the Windsor.
Yeah, so known.
We haven't been in London since...
No, you're quite right.
Quite right.
Which was also the beginning of something that should have been.
I pretend that twin dilemma never happened.
And if you do that, then Collins era starts off really well.
I love episode one of Attack at the side.
I never thought I'd hear myself saying that.
I think he's great in that.
And I think Sylv and Sophie are at their best in this.
Yeah.
One of the things that I've missed in the last few years of the
Moffat era is London.
It hasn't been enough London.
Yeah.
Or families or, you know, human beings with feelings.
Not enough mums.
Yeah, a lot of angst.
The producers I blame, you know.
Sending out all these alien scripts all times of the day, but it's
us fans sitting around who have to deal with it.
It's us fans who have to watch it, but do they spare any thought?
Do they spare any thought for the casting decisions?
No.
We're the ones who have to deal with.
Dear listener, don't bother going to conventions.
Just listen to us.
So you say.
It's going to be a few sad mums after this and survival of the
death toll.
Sorry, I just ended on that down, are you?
Okay, Jenny Laird awards for puzzling creative choice.
This is another difficult one for me, so I'm going to ask if
anyone wants to go first.
I've got one.
Okay.
It's really minor because this season's so great and I don't want
to wail on Kev McCulloch again. leave him for one of you three.
I think it's an odd decision in this story to make Julian
Holloway's character a sort of army guy.
Because he was cast as a cop.
Yeah, the original script has him as a cop and heaps of the
dialogue doesn't make sense if he's not a cop.
So all of that stuff in episode one about, you know, we, the
police let you off with a warning or was originally we let you off
with a warning.
You know, he seems to know that she's disappeared.
He knows that her mother is listed her as a missing person.
It just doesn't, like, I'm not quite sure what the army thing is.
And particularly since, like, presumably they wanted to make his
character a sort of symbol of coercive violence.
But I'm sure a police uniform would do that just as well.
And would have also gone back to an earthly child.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, the only reason I can think of is, you know, they've gotten
in trouble for turning police into villains before, but army
officers. fine.
No one minded the police shooting up all of those people in
Resurrection of the Daleks episode one.
No, that's true, actually.
Yeah, yeah, sorry.
I was thinking back to autons.
But no, I never knew that he was meant to be a police sergeant and
it makes a lot more sense.
You're right.
Yeah.
Oh, look, I'm just gonna be shooting fish in a barrel here.
Give it to Kev.
It's a joint award for it's a joint award for the director, non
direction of battlefield, which I think is just appalling in so
many instances, especially action sequences and long shots and
driving of cars.
That is then also compounded with Kiff McCulloch's crap music
throughout the entire, all of those sequences just doesn't even
add a single bit to the story.
It's just a boarding.
So they get my genuine award.
Richard Sorry, Richard, in case I...
Please dig in the night some more.
Todd has said nothing.
I can disagree with on any level. on this podcast so that, you
know, very seldom does.
But mine is actually, speaking Murray gold, you can have too much
of a good thing.
Get a bit brass finger after too much gold fingering.
And I've got to say, I've got to say that the lovely Dominic Glynn
as skilled and talented and varied as he is, at Nick and other
people's scores.
There's a whole lot of the Firebird in his work, especially in
this one.
If you go back to your Russians.
But he insists on telling us exactly how we're supposed to be
feeling at this point.
And he loves the films of Hitchcock, and he certainly loves
Wells.
So, yes, with happiness patrol, even though I love the score, but
it's also to Marquez as well, for Ghost Light, perhaps even more
so.
Composers at this time were looking at, there was a whole thing in
cinema, in cinema and composing in the 80s and universities like
you know, about the emotional content of work.
But stop telling us how to feel.
Just give us, go back and actually watch these film wires and
you'll see what they did with the scoring. was a lot more subtle.
Isn't that contentious and bitchy?
That's what we're here for. right.
So my puzzling creative choice.
It could be Keff and Michael, but I think Pointing at Todd and
indeed myself.
What are you trying to say?
It could be.
The moving finger points too.
It could be Keffen Michael, but I'm going to go with something
really nitpicky and specific and it's something I mentioned
before.
Yes.
No, it's I love Sylvester.
Yes.
And there are very few moments in his era that I can point to
where I think he does a poor job.
But this is one of them, and I think it's actually the worst
delivery of a line he ever does.
Morgain!
If they're dead. dead.
It's like he's in the room.
It's like, what emotion are you going for there?
have no idea what's happening.
I'm so glad you reminded me that.
Because I do agree that's another one of his inability to sort of
shout, et cetera.
But to me, the director should be stepping in insane, saying, okay
can we have another?
Give it another go.
That is her director's job after all, isn't it?
Could we have a good version?
Yeah.
Sylvester was always struggling to find his tone, but I think
that's a kind of nice mirror on the doctor himself and try and we
get that with survival battling against his instincts for because
he knows he's right.
It's very difficult for people who are confirmed in their belief
that they're right to be able to argue with any semblance of
apparent respect as we're seeing right now in the Australian
electoral blah that we're all still going through.
All right, pics of the week.
Well, I kind of want to pick an up and coming new podcast called
New To Who.
Have you heard this, Richard?
No, not at all.
What's that?
Yes, another bloody Doctor Who podcast.com.
We don't know her.
And what are they doing?
Yeah, what do they do?
I have actually picked them before I mostly pick them again just
to annoy Richard today.
So they're a few episodes in now, their most recent episode.
Oh, the one that Paul Cornell can't apparently go into the
bathroom without having on.
I need to do that one.
Yes.
So apparently it's ably assisting all functions required for a
fan.
A modern fan.
I don't know about that.
But at the very least, it is actually good. really good.
And they have the advantage of being able to pick just good Doctor
Who stories.
Not doing everybody. whose stupid idea was to be every Doctor Who
story in order.
Sorry, are they picking stories for people who want to drop into
doctors?
Yeah, so the idea is in theory that if you're a fan of the new
series, these are good stories and kind of representative stories
for you to watch.
And so they tend to be only 4 episodes.
There's no arc stories or anything like that.
But they have chosen, you know, stories from all over.
So they've done, you know, like an unearthly child.
Their most recent episode is on Tomb of the Cybermen at the time
of our recording.
Yeah, they've done remembrance, for instance.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I've heard. that the twin dilemma's coming up.
It is.
The savages.
Actually, the savages...
And the massacre.
The massacre.
The celestial toy maker.
Exactly.
All 15 episodes.
So that's my pick of the week.
Excellent.
I would like to pick something slightly related to this episode
but not quite about this episode.
Dominic Glynn has recently released the happiness patrol remixes.
Ooh.
And so it's about 30 minutes long.
You can get it on iTunes.
And yeah, it's still using the same music.
I think he may have even gone back to his original files and he's
just been updating it from there.
So yeah, and it was a great score to begin with, but this kind of
plays with it in the harmonica music and what have you.
So yeah, Dominic Glynn's Happiness Patrol remixes is my pick.
My pick of the wink is the Blu-ray of these movies that are called
The Hobbit, because it's got a certain actor in there and a couple
of them, and I really like his performance.
Much better in the extended versions than they were in the cinema
versions.
Yeah?
Whatever.
I think it's, I just have a warm spot for Sylvester in them, and I
think he does a great job.
Oh, is Sylvester McCoy in the Hobbit?
didn't realise.
I've never heard of that.
It's almost as if he doesn't mention it every time he opens his
mouth.
You can paint me later soon. you later.
Oh dear.
Yeah, they are terrible, aren't they?
More like just to be a total fanboy.
I think the only new thing that I've been enjoying this this year
are the Titan comics of the ninth doctor and the 12th doctor
ones.
They're really good story arcing and actually really nicely done
and very true to the feeling of the of the seasons.
They did a Tom one and the pertly one was very good because
Cornell wrote it, of course.
But yeah, I really do like the Titan comic ones, but I would
certainly go for music.
I would actually go back and listen to Sam Waxman, listen to some
Bernard Herman scores or any of the 40s film wise, Waxman
especially if you like some of the scoring for this season, then
go back to some of the great film noir composers. on YouTube.
You just listen to it, but you can really hear where, especially
Dominic Glenn are coming, is coming from.
And Marigold has left now, hasn't he?
We're not, we're not saying.
I don't think any announcement has been...
No, but my guess is that he will do the Christmas special and that
would be the end.
Well, I have nothing awful to say about him until after he's gone
then.
But really if you just want to go back and watch any old film
you'll hear him again.
Said that with love.
Well, dear listener, that is the end of the classic series of
Doctor Who, the flight for Entirety.
We will be back next week with a Sylvester Retrospective.
We will be covering the telly movie.
A bit of housekeeping.
I know where we are a few commentaries, classic commentaries yet
to be recorded for various doctors.
Next week we're going to give you the nominations for our silver
commentaries.
So what's happening is this.
After we recorded season 25, Richard had a holiday, of course.
And now Nathan's about to go on holiday, which means that pretty
much where we've come back from our break and we're going to have
an uninterrupted run through to the telly movie and a classic
series overall retrospective as well as our silver retrospective.
And then we'll be taking a bit of a break till the new series.
But occasionally in that time where we can fit them in, we will be
releasing the commentaries for Enlightenment, Revelation of the
Daleks, and whatever the silver one will be, and we will be back
with the new series sometime in the new year.
A lot of people have been asking, so that is the final
confirmation.
But yeah, we are going to take a bit of a break to simulate the 16
year break, Doctor Who had for television, but not quite as long.
So, uh, until then, you can find us online at flight through
entirety.sexy, flight through entirety on Facebook and Apple
Podcasts and at FTE podcast on Twitter, over on Bondfinger
Bondfinger on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at Bondfinger casts
on Twitter.
Until next time, may none of your cats turn you into meals for
cheaters.
Somewhere else the tea is getting cold.
Thank you very much for listening, good night.
Good night.
See you soon.
Good everyone.
That was Flat Through Entirety with Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley
Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.
Beam arrangement by Cameron Lamb, logo designed by Anthony Wells.
This episode, completely superfluous, was recorded on October the
7th, 2017.
The next episode will be released on November 12th.
Wanted.
One house sitter for perivale.
Must like cats, horses, and extreme body modification.
Survival, survival, 7th of October.
I think.
Is it?
Yes, all day.
Right.
Okay.
Nathan, Nathan, Nathan, Nathan.
Red, leather, yellow, leather, red, leather, yellow, I'll see.
I'm not ready.
I'm just going to stuff that up.