WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 12:27:09

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Hello, dear listeners and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast who shoves ferrets down your

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trousers.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan I'm Todd.

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Richard for this one.

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Ah, hooray.

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And we've made it to the end of another doctor and he's the last

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doctor for a while.

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It's the Sylvester McCoy retrospective.

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Yay!

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I've been around.

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What did I say, guys?

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I'm going crazy, oh.

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Oh, heaven help me.

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Because he didn't sound like Kirth McCullen.

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On that note, Richard.

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Snob marry a void.

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Right in there.

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Not even a little bit of warm water in the bath.

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Not straight in.

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Dominic Glynn, Mark Ayers, or Kef McCulloch?

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It's so easy, isn't it?

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I'd like to actually see Dominic Glynn and Mark is in a pillow

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fight, stripped down, but jumping around on the bed with Keth

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McCulloch with the CO2 cannister, and he can just pour that down

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his own throat.

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But I am seeing a whole kind of Bill Murray walking in going, yep

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this is definitely lost in translation for Doctor Who.

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Who would you snog?

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Yeah, no, no, I'm sorry, that's the best I could do on that one.

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That's fine.

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You know, you never quite answer them, but I want to, you know, all

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really good.

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But Marcus was, you know, cut his jib nicely in his day, so I

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think him doing a Tom Cruise jumping up and down as a sort of lost

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in translation Japanese hotel room scene would work really well.

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I think he's the cuddly one.

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I think you probably want to marry him.

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Dominic.

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You can have him.

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It's more of a night of passion.

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Yeah, I'm happy to rent them, so...

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Excellent.

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Yeah, I agree with Nathan.

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So, Brendan.

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Yes.

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Sorry.

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I just have to do this one.

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As an old man again.

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Oh, am I that cliche?

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Small Mario Void, the Candyman, the ancient one or the Destroyer.

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So just a bit then.

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Right.

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Okay.

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Look, I would look, I'd have to snog the candy man, because, you

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know, it tastes really nice.

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I think that's filthy, but I'm not sure why.

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And, you know, you couldn't marry the Candyman because every time

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you come home, every... time do you call this?

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Marry, I'd have to marry the destroyer because it's Marok bloody

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Anton under there.

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Which means I'm avoiding the ancient one because he's a bit

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sludgy.

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It's a she too.

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Oh, she.

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I beg your pardon, she was a lady person.

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No, she's a bit sludgy.

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Needs a cream for that.

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Sorry.

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Nathan.

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Snug Mario void.

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Lady Painfort, Helen A, or more gain of the Fay.

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He always gets the best words.

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I have to be kind because he may not be kind later when I start

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talking about a certain season.

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Well, I'd avoid Helen A because she kills half a 1000000 people in

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that entire story.

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Including men wearing pink triangles, you know?

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Yeah, she's well and truly worth keeping away from.

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So it's a question.

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I think that I would have to snog Lady Payne for it because she's

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so crazy. she's probably contact with her is probably best kept to

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a minimum. 400 and something year old teeth, though.

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But I'd be totally happy to marry Gene Marsh, you know, Pert, we

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did and look how that turned out.

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Excellent.

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Right.

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Well, I might do Snog Mary avoid myself.

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Time in the Rani Paradise Towers, and Joshua the Bannerman.

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So I would definitely snog time the Rani.

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Because it initially has brightness and colour and pizzazz, but

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then you just lose all interest.

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I'm avoiding Paradise Towers because it's just awful.

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And thus of the three, I'm actually going to marry Delta Vannerman

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because there are actually things that I actually like in Delta

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Vannerman.

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Despite... much that I don't like.

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And so, yeah, there you go.

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That's my.

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Have we talked about your Delta and the Bannerman history on the

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podcast?

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Yes, you've mentioned it many times, then we're not going...

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We are not going there at this point because I'm not ready to talk

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about it.

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We are going to hear it from your mouth at some point, yes?

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Yes.

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Good.

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No other parts.

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Yes, very much so.

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All right, so here we are at the end of the era.

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And so what do we think of these 3 years of Sorghast?

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What have you got out of it?

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What's new for you?

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When I was a little boy in the 1970s?

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I know.

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Used to take ¢10 piece and go to the corner shop.

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Sometimes even before school because I was that lower middle

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class.

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Sophie Aldred.

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And you could you could get something called a mixed bag of

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lollies.

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And within them, you didn't pay much for them.

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You didn't have high expectations, and a lot of it was really just

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sweet and colourful, but some of them were gobstoppingly

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brilliant.

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I think I'll just park that there.

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Because that's what it's been like for me.

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I think it's an extraordinary Renaissance, and it takes a while to

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kick in for them to work out what they're doing.

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But the show under Eric Saywood, was a bit of a grind, creatively

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you know, just kind of, It varied between dull and horrific, I

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think.

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And suddenly someone new comes along, solves the problem that

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Doctor Who had had all throughout the 70s and early 80s, which was

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getting people to write for the program.

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I think the 70s had like a reliable stable of people who could

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produce a story each season.

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But it was always a bit tight, I think.

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And I think Andrew Cartmel is the 1st person to come along and

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just find all of these young writers.

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Fresh new, interesting people.

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Yeah, so there's only Pip and Jane Baker in the entire era who've

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written for the program before.

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And so they get people who have a sort of memory of Doctor Who, but

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none of them write about space corridors and none of them write

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you know, be, you know, like just big dull gun battles.

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There's the odd big dull gun battle.

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I'm looking at you battlefield, but basically it's taking the show

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in directions that had never gone before like the recent past.

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You know, there's a lot more stuff set on earth.

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It's feminism.

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Yeah, it's so much more interesting than it's been for such a long

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time.

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Politics.

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Okay, we did see Mind of Evil.

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I think I think that's a really good thing.

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It's so much more cutting edge and pushing boundaries and going in

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new directions.

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I mean, if we go a long way back to, like, perhaps Barry Letts

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with all the ecological stuff in the 1970s, where it was

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referencing stuff that was going on.

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Here, there is this new wave, and listening to you guys talk about

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the show even when I, you know, on certain shows I don't

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particularly like.

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I understand.

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Andrew Carton or, is he's the biggest revelation.

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And it's also a revelation how much John Nathan Turner also takes

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a step back, but he allows that space for that man to implement

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his vision, whereas he really didn't allow that prime.

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And that and that's huge.

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I mean, we said before that, that, say, would sought to be

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apolitical and you can't be apolitical.

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If you're trying to be apolitical.

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You supporting the status quo.

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And so there's an unpleasant militarism and just a kind of

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thoughtless, you know, reactionary kind of feel to the show under

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him. once we decide to become explicitly political.

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And once we have a target in Thatcher, we actually have a show

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that says interesting things again in a way that it hadn't for a

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long time.

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The extraordinary thing that seems to happen with Andrew Cartmel

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is, um, Season 18, we had Christopher Hamilton Bidmead, who was

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strong on ideas.

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And the story then came from the scientific idea.

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With the advent of Eric Saywood, and according to what Eric

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Saywood says in documentaries and interviews.

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JNT was sort of sticking his nose in with the story.

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So Eric would commission a story and then JNT would come in and

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say, oh, well, no, we'll do this and you must have a monster here

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et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

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And it sounds like there was a fair bit of interference there

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which Andrew Cartmel doesn't seem to have encountered.

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And I think what may have been the turning point was actually, say

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would leaving halfway through trial, leaving JNT to then script

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edit the last 6 episodes and possibly JNT going, story is really

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not my thing.

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So, and of course, the revenge.

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The reason he did trial was because the show was in trouble and he

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didn't want to abandon it, but he honestly wasn't expecting to

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come back for season 24 to the point he was told, no, you're not

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coming back.

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He went off on holiday, came back and was told, no, you are.

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So I think at that point, he no longer wanted to be involved in

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story.

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And that, with the producer role as it was then, that's actually a

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really good thing.

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It's good for the producer to have an idea of these are the kind

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of stories I want to tell, like Barry Letts did, and he

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occasionally wrote some as well, or Philip Hinchcliffe.

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But Philip Hinchcliffe didn't write stories.

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He said to Bob, I want this kind of tone.

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I want this kind of feel.

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Bob Brief, the writer, and that's the way it worked.

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JNT script interference in the Silveira.

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It seems to be mainly limited to give me some monsters in ghost

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light, make the cheetah people big furry leopards.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Put the master in survival.

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So I think probably the difference that we identify in Nathan

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Turner's approach.

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I mean, we don't know.

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And we'll never know he's gone.

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The say would account of the era is so partisan.

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You know, that I don't think we ever will get to the truth there

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but it's not inconsistent with the terrible relationship between

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Saywood and J and T meant that J and T suggestions are now

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retrospectively characterised as, you know, intolerable

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interference.

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Whereas Carmel never experienced them in that way.

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And that he still made suggestions and story suggestions, but that

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they weren't received in the same way as they had been during the

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Sabre era.

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Yeah, so they would seem to look at suggestions like, hey, let's

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put the master in us.

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Oh, God, not again.

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Whereas Cartmel would go, oh, okay.

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Well we need to figure out a way to make that organic to the

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story.

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Even with ghost light, where the animal husks of Josiah don't

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really make a lot of sense.

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No, and they contradict, for instance, as I said, they contradict

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what happens to control.

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Yeah, exactly We don't see her husks.

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But they are they are de-emphasized enough.

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You know, they're put in there to give us the 1st episode

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Cliffhanger.

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And then when they're dispatched in the last episode and they're

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blowing up, the doctor says some rungs have gone on his

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evolutionary ladder, it gives us, it gives us a joke about them

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know what I mean?

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It's not like the gum. which to me is kind of the the ultimate bad

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idea of let's just put a monster in to have a monster in there.

254
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The magma creature?

255
00:12:14.700 --> 00:12:16.740
Well, the magma creature.

256
00:12:16.740 --> 00:12:18.539
At the very least.

257
00:12:19.860 --> 00:12:21.720
Robert Holmes taking them.

258
00:12:21.779 --> 00:12:24.600
Yeah, but the thing is, they shoot they shoot around the magma

259
00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:27.659
creature, whereas the garm gets all these bloody close-ups.

260
00:12:27.960 --> 00:12:33.779
The idea of the gum isn't bad, but the execution is.

261
00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:38.460
Whereas something I found watching so through because, of course, I

262
00:12:38.460 --> 00:12:42.000
watched it all through with Rod, and then I watched it over 3

263
00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:42.360
days.

264
00:12:42.419 --> 00:12:44.879
Live tweeting, everything in a row.

265
00:12:44.940 --> 00:12:46.740
It is a mixed bag as you say, Richard.

266
00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:52.080
But there is also a consistency of chewiness.

267
00:12:52.139 --> 00:12:57.720
Yeah, yeah, there is a consistent density of blue aliens.

268
00:12:57.779 --> 00:12:59.159
They're all blue.

269
00:12:59.159 --> 00:12:59.879
All blue.

270
00:12:59.940 --> 00:13:05.639
And texture to the stories, you know, even if we've got one which

271
00:13:05.639 --> 00:13:08.580
is played a bit more farcically, like Paradise Towers compared to

272
00:13:08.580 --> 00:13:12.600
something more serious, like Curse of Fenrick, it's very clear

273
00:13:12.600 --> 00:13:14.399
from the visual look that they're the same show.

274
00:13:14.460 --> 00:13:18.960
There's no story in these 12, in my opinion, that looks

275
00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:22.320
significantly cheaper than the others, like say time lash or

276
00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:24.539
terminus or time flight.

277
00:13:24.600 --> 00:13:27.720
But they're dealing with shorter seasons and budgets easier to

278
00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:28.080
control.

279
00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:30.659
And so time-wise, it's easy to control.

280
00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:34.799
But it still feels like you've seen 6 years in three, doesn't it?

281
00:13:34.860 --> 00:13:40.019
Just in the leaps, technically narratively, not, and not just

282
00:13:40.019 --> 00:13:41.460
production, but in performance as well.

283
00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:44.100
That's very true, Richard, I agree with you.

284
00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:48.240
And I think there's just this layering in this building every

285
00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:49.500
every season for me.

286
00:13:49.559 --> 00:13:53.340
And although I think there's missteps in that 1st season, they'd

287
00:13:53.340 --> 00:13:57.240
learn it from them, and you can see in Sylvester's performance

288
00:13:57.240 --> 00:14:01.080
like in Paradise Towers, I can still see his doctor from, like

289
00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:03.659
that's my favourite performance of his in that, in that season

290
00:14:03.659 --> 00:14:04.320
since 24.

291
00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:09.659
And I see flashes in that that then are there to the forefront at

292
00:14:09.659 --> 00:14:13.860
the beginning of 25 and just, he's like a ability, his likeability

293
00:14:13.860 --> 00:14:16.799
is something, I can't explain it.

294
00:14:16.860 --> 00:14:18.059
I just I like him.

295
00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:20.220
I like his quiet moments.

296
00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:23.519
I like the moments when he's building with not only with ace, but

297
00:14:23.519 --> 00:14:26.580
with other characters that he has, like whether it be the

298
00:14:26.580 --> 00:14:30.059
inspector in Ghostlight, or whether it be another female character

299
00:14:30.059 --> 00:14:34.259
like who's the blue, who's the secondary red Kang that's not Julie

300
00:14:34.259 --> 00:14:34.980
Brennan?

301
00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:35.940
Fire escape?

302
00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:38.639
Oh, yeah, well, she, they have a...

303
00:14:38.700 --> 00:14:39.720
Sorry, Ben Liner.

304
00:14:39.779 --> 00:14:40.919
Not Fire Escape, because she's terrible.

305
00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:42.179
Binliner.

306
00:14:42.179 --> 00:14:45.779
Binliner. and there's moments with her and it builds.

307
00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:51.179
He's an inability to shout is something that I will, you know, it

308
00:14:51.179 --> 00:14:52.740
just irritates me.

309
00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:55.799
Although there is a moment in ghost night where he shouts and it's

310
00:14:55.799 --> 00:14:57.240
not that bit.

311
00:14:57.480 --> 00:14:59.460
Sorry, that was really bad.

312
00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:01.500
I was doing the whole hand movement thing.

313
00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:04.500
There's there's one challenge annoying.

314
00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:07.200
There's one shouting bit in that story where it actually shouts

315
00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:08.820
and I actually go, oh my god, you've got it right.

316
00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:10.860
After 3 years you've got it right, you know?

317
00:15:10.919 --> 00:15:14.700
Is comic stuff, sometimes it's absolutely phenomenal and other

318
00:15:14.700 --> 00:15:16.440
times I think, oh, please just point back.

319
00:15:16.500 --> 00:15:21.000
But I really like him and I really respect him so much.

320
00:15:21.059 --> 00:15:22.320
Oh, wow.

321
00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:25.919
So I, people who I know who just gave up on the series in 24 and

322
00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:28.559
have just written him off as, you know, the worst doctor.

323
00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:32.039
Like, I'm there going, well, no, he's a really good doctor.

324
00:15:32.100 --> 00:15:36.899
In terms of an actor, perhaps I think because of the production in

325
00:15:36.899 --> 00:15:38.100
the scripts and that sort of thing.

326
00:15:38.159 --> 00:15:43.200
I don't necessarily think that his 2 predecessors and the 80s had

327
00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:47.039
to deal with a lot, I think, badder situations that they had to

328
00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:48.539
try and dig this show out of.

329
00:15:48.600 --> 00:15:52.679
So I kind of, like, you know, I'm not saying that he's a worse

330
00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:56.460
actor than them, but I'm just saying that he's had less sort of to

331
00:15:56.460 --> 00:15:57.659
deal with in that sort of respect.

332
00:15:57.720 --> 00:16:00.179
Generally, I get what you mean.

333
00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:01.500
But I really like him.

334
00:16:01.500 --> 00:16:04.980
I really like him and his relationship with Sophie Aldred.

335
00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:08.100
Like in that one scene, at the end of Dragonfire, there is more

336
00:16:08.100 --> 00:16:12.360
chemistry there than with Bonnie Langford in the entire previous

337
00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:13.259
13 episodes.

338
00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:14.399
Like it's just incredible.

339
00:16:14.460 --> 00:16:16.620
Now, you were going to ask...

340
00:16:16.620 --> 00:16:18.360
I was just going to ask, how do you think it would have gone if

341
00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:21.240
the roles had been flipped and Sylvester had played the 6th and

342
00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:24.720
Colin had played the 7th because I don't know that Sylvester would

343
00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:27.059
have necessarily been able to pull together.

344
00:16:27.120 --> 00:16:32.100
And my knowledge of Colin's ear is still not full, but pulled

345
00:16:32.100 --> 00:16:34.500
together 22 and 23 in the same way.

346
00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:35.340
What do you think?

347
00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:39.960
I don't think even Colin...

348
00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:42.299
It's not an...

349
00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:44.460
But he was towards the end there.

350
00:16:44.519 --> 00:16:45.360
23.

351
00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:50.460
Look, it's so hard because now going back and looking backwards.

352
00:16:51.000 --> 00:16:55.740
Defaults in the stories that Colin had to deal with are

353
00:16:55.740 --> 00:16:56.399
immeasurable.

354
00:16:56.460 --> 00:16:56.940
Yeah.

355
00:16:56.940 --> 00:17:01.740
And and I think his performance throughout the lot is actually

356
00:17:01.740 --> 00:17:04.859
phenomenal. what he's had to deliver.

357
00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:07.259
I don't want to go back and rehash all of that.

358
00:17:07.380 --> 00:17:11.160
Can I see some of this to doing that in the same respect?

359
00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:15.779
It's an impossible question to ask because he's dealt a different

360
00:17:15.779 --> 00:17:19.500
hand, and he's got a script editor who's with him, and they've got

361
00:17:19.500 --> 00:17:24.900
a vision together, and he's actively working to his strengths.

362
00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:29.819
I just can't say, you know?

363
00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:32.460
Imagine Colin in 24 to 27.

364
00:17:32.700 --> 00:17:35.940
I think we would have very much had a big finish, 6th dog.

365
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:41.519
Well, I think, I think you can't do, say what you're, Colin in

366
00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:42.299
those stories.

367
00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:45.839
Because the stories are structured around the doctor.

368
00:17:45.900 --> 00:17:47.220
A different character.

369
00:17:47.220 --> 00:17:50.519
Well, he lurks on the periphery of things. and Colin can't do that

370
00:17:50.519 --> 00:17:51.059
in that code.

371
00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:54.180
I mean, he can't even turn up on earth in the present day in that

372
00:17:54.180 --> 00:17:54.839
outfit.

373
00:17:54.900 --> 00:17:56.700
I think we would have seen changes.

374
00:17:56.759 --> 00:17:58.799
Yeah, well, I think so.

375
00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:02.279
He would have had to play it like the Stranger and Miss Brown or

376
00:18:02.279 --> 00:18:06.299
something. you know, where he pulls it back in and he would have

377
00:18:06.299 --> 00:18:09.420
been, I mean, he would definitely have been up for that, I think.

378
00:18:09.480 --> 00:18:11.039
I would think it would have been interesting.

379
00:18:11.099 --> 00:18:14.759
But I think the Sylvester McCoy era benefits from sitting back a

380
00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:18.539
bit and saying, all right, what do we want the doctor to be?

381
00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:21.720
We can't just do the thing that we've done?

382
00:18:21.779 --> 00:18:26.519
with Pete and Colin and just react against the previous actor.

383
00:18:26.579 --> 00:18:31.440
So, you know, the brief for the 5th doctor was he mustn't have

384
00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:32.220
curly hair?

385
00:18:32.279 --> 00:18:33.299
Do you know what I mean?

386
00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:35.279
I mean, that was that was actually a thing.

387
00:18:35.339 --> 00:18:37.559
And then Pete was not.

388
00:18:37.619 --> 00:18:41.039
Like, I don't know who watches that 3 years of Doctor Who and

389
00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:45.359
thinks that Pete Davidson's doctor is nice because he's snarky and

390
00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:47.880
and it was kind of angry and dismissing.

391
00:18:48.059 --> 00:18:50.160
Passive aggressive, really.

392
00:18:50.220 --> 00:18:51.900
So we have to go nasty.

393
00:18:51.900 --> 00:18:53.759
So we have to go nasty with the next doctor.

394
00:18:53.880 --> 00:18:56.160
We have a doctor who puts in a subtle performance.

395
00:18:56.220 --> 00:18:57.420
So we have to go big.

396
00:18:57.480 --> 00:18:59.940
They don't do that Whistlevester.

397
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:02.160
They don't say let's have someone who's not Colin.

398
00:19:02.220 --> 00:19:05.519
They say, what is this character like?

399
00:19:05.579 --> 00:19:07.079
And you've brought up, Brendan.

400
00:19:07.140 --> 00:19:11.220
Uh, you know, Sylvester's thoughts about the doctor's sort of

401
00:19:11.220 --> 00:19:12.119
sadness.

402
00:19:12.180 --> 00:19:16.980
And I think Kartmel has thought about how the doctor solves the

403
00:19:16.980 --> 00:19:19.259
problems that he finds himself in.

404
00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:24.660
And I think we've got memories of trout and not coming in and

405
00:19:24.660 --> 00:19:25.859
hogging the limelight.

406
00:19:25.859 --> 00:19:30.119
And even just his look, the whole thing is just thought about it

407
00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:31.019
bit more carefully.

408
00:19:31.140 --> 00:19:33.059
Yeah, and it's still Pat Godfrey.

409
00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:34.619
The last 3 doctors, same designer.

410
00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:35.339
Yeah, yeah.

411
00:19:35.339 --> 00:19:38.339
Well, I think that Colin was just pointed in the direction of the

412
00:19:38.339 --> 00:19:42.839
studio and told to do something, but I don't think he was given

413
00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:45.359
much of a brief about what his doctor was like.

414
00:19:45.420 --> 00:19:49.740
I think another difference between the way Sylv and Colin played

415
00:19:49.740 --> 00:19:50.160
the role.

416
00:19:50.700 --> 00:19:55.019
They both passionately love the character.

417
00:19:55.079 --> 00:19:56.700
There is no doubt about that.

418
00:19:56.759 --> 00:20:01.259
But if you look at Colin's stories and also the way Colin talks

419
00:20:01.259 --> 00:20:06.720
about his stories, all of Colin's stories pretty much have a sci

420
00:20:05.940 --> 00:20:07.380
fi conceit.

421
00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:10.859
You know, where moving planets to change time zones, where

422
00:20:10.859 --> 00:20:14.519
rewriting history, people turning into plants, that sort of

423
00:20:14.519 --> 00:20:14.759
thing.

424
00:20:14.819 --> 00:20:17.339
Whereas all sylves stories.

425
00:20:18.299 --> 00:20:24.059
They have more of, This is the shape of a society idea about

426
00:20:24.059 --> 00:20:24.420
them.

427
00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:29.700
And I think that also reflects the actors' approaches because when

428
00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:32.279
Colin talks about his scripts and why they didn't work.

429
00:20:32.339 --> 00:20:34.859
He talks about logical inconsistencies in the scripts.

430
00:20:34.920 --> 00:20:38.819
Whereas when Silv talks about his scripts, he talks a lot more

431
00:20:38.819 --> 00:20:44.039
about emotional, a lot more about feeling, and he famously says in

432
00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:46.319
interviews things like, you know, I didn't understand the science

433
00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:49.799
stuff, which is why I gave so much of it to Sophie, because Sophie

434
00:20:49.799 --> 00:20:52.559
loves science, and, you know, I just trusted the writers to get it

435
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:52.799
right.

436
00:20:52.859 --> 00:20:56.220
Whereas Colin would say things like, well, hold on, no, this isn't

437
00:20:56.220 --> 00:20:57.960
how time travel works back on page two.

438
00:20:58.019 --> 00:21:00.059
You know, you can't change that now.

439
00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:01.680
We need to, we need to sort this out.

440
00:21:01.740 --> 00:21:06.660
So I think possibly if Colin had stayed around, we would, even

441
00:21:06.660 --> 00:21:10.920
with Carmel coming in, who likes sort of world building, I think

442
00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:15.720
we would have had a lot harder sci-fi, and I don't think that's

443
00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:19.799
necessarily good or bad, but that's Colin's passion.

444
00:21:19.859 --> 00:21:23.940
And with Cartmel being such a collaborative writer and, you know

445
00:21:23.940 --> 00:21:26.579
working with his actors and what do you want to do with your

446
00:21:26.579 --> 00:21:26.880
character?

447
00:21:27.299 --> 00:21:31.440
I think, It would have been really great for Colin to work with

448
00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:33.720
Cart Mill, because he had such strong ideas about the character

449
00:21:33.720 --> 00:21:37.019
which weren't quite executed well enough because you also had a

450
00:21:37.019 --> 00:21:38.819
script editor who wanted to make a very dark show.

451
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:43.680
Whereas Cartmel wants to make a hopeful show that still has

452
00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:44.519
darkness in it.

453
00:21:44.579 --> 00:21:47.640
I think you both touched on some really wonderful things.

454
00:21:47.700 --> 00:21:49.859
You said sadness and sorrow in the character, and that is

455
00:21:49.859 --> 00:21:53.579
something that that just resonates when I watch it, and I watch

456
00:21:53.579 --> 00:21:58.079
those moments with those sad moments that Sylvester has. getting

457
00:21:58.079 --> 00:21:58.440
emotional.

458
00:21:58.500 --> 00:22:01.440
Like, this is, you know, this is what one of the greatest things

459
00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:05.759
about being on this journey is discovering this, you know?

460
00:22:05.819 --> 00:22:07.980
Even stuff that I didn't like.

461
00:22:08.039 --> 00:22:09.420
I can appreciate.

462
00:22:09.539 --> 00:22:13.440
And it's just been a revelation, these last 2 seasons, even

463
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:14.759
aspects of season 24.

464
00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:19.619
I don't think Sylvester is a terrific actor.

465
00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:24.839
I think he's compelling to watch, but he has strengths and that

466
00:22:24.839 --> 00:22:31.740
quiet, reflective, allergic thing that he does and he does it.

467
00:22:31.799 --> 00:22:34.200
He starts doing it in season 24, I think.

468
00:22:34.259 --> 00:22:35.940
Is there a moment?

469
00:22:36.359 --> 00:22:38.400
That stands out for you?

470
00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:43.259
for him, that appended by his doctor or moments that you would say

471
00:22:43.259 --> 00:22:45.539
there he is, that's, that is him.

472
00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:48.359
He's kind of indomitable speech.

473
00:22:48.420 --> 00:22:54.000
You know, Tom arrives in that indomitable space in space.

474
00:22:54.660 --> 00:23:00.180
I like him hugging the electric guitar at the end of Delta and the

475
00:23:00.180 --> 00:23:00.720
Bannerman.

476
00:23:00.779 --> 00:23:04.079
I don't think it's a particularly well-written scene, but it's

477
00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:08.099
such such a different choice from any of his predecessors.

478
00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:11.279
You know, he's hugging it and saying love has never been known for

479
00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:12.720
its rationality and stuff.

480
00:23:12.779 --> 00:23:15.000
And it's not a deeply sad thing.

481
00:23:15.059 --> 00:23:18.539
Like I don't believe for a 2nd that, you know, that gives us some

482
00:23:18.539 --> 00:23:19.980
insight into the doctor's character.

483
00:23:20.039 --> 00:23:25.140
But it's such a nice choice and it probably is the 1st sign that

484
00:23:25.140 --> 00:23:28.619
he's not just going to be the clown that he is in time Rani.

485
00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:29.819
It's the contrast.

486
00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:31.019
It's the mixed bag again.

487
00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:37.019
You get the acid drops with the really fantastic juicy fruits.

488
00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:41.039
And then my juiciest fruit for here is probably, again, in

489
00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:41.579
battlefield.

490
00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:44.460
You've got the terrible moment that Brendan I'm hoping will recap

491
00:23:44.460 --> 00:23:44.880
for us.

492
00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:46.619
Okay.

493
00:23:46.619 --> 00:23:51.180
There we go.

494
00:23:51.240 --> 00:23:53.819
But you've also got just get that out between your teeth

495
00:23:53.819 --> 00:23:54.299
listener.

496
00:23:54.359 --> 00:23:57.599
But he also has that speech, which I think only goes for 25

497
00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:01.140
minutes with he and Gene Marsh at the end when he talks about

498
00:24:01.140 --> 00:24:02.099
pressing the button.

499
00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:05.279
That's an extraordinary moment for any doctor and I think he

500
00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:06.420
delivers it superbly.

501
00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:08.759
It really, for me, it's his greatest moment.

502
00:24:09.539 --> 00:24:13.200
There, there, there are 2 moments for me because I love that big

503
00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:16.980
speech and I love his speech about consequences in remembrance and

504
00:24:16.980 --> 00:24:18.599
confronting Davros and what have you.

505
00:24:18.660 --> 00:24:23.099
Um, there are 2 moments for me and they're very, very quiet.

506
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:24.299
One is blink and you'll miss it.

507
00:24:24.359 --> 00:24:27.900
It's actually in time in the Rani, because I think towards the end

508
00:24:27.900 --> 00:24:30.420
of shooting time in the Rani, Silv starts to get an idea of where

509
00:24:30.420 --> 00:24:31.380
he wants to go with this.

510
00:24:31.380 --> 00:24:35.519
And it's when Bayes, Donald Pickering says, no, I'll stay.

511
00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:40.259
And the doctor pushes Faroon out of the room and just looks at

512
00:24:40.259 --> 00:24:44.880
Bayes with this mixture of shock and respect and sadness.

513
00:24:44.940 --> 00:24:47.039
And it's just this very quick moment.

514
00:24:47.099 --> 00:24:50.039
We then get the bit outside where he does the whole.

515
00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:52.680
Oh, you know, Bayos was wonderful speech, which was shot 3 weeks

516
00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:53.819
previously.

517
00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:59.039
But that just little exit, you know, it's not just a turn and run

518
00:24:59.099 --> 00:25:00.359
doesn't even get a close-up.

519
00:25:00.420 --> 00:25:03.720
And I didn't I didn't properly notice it until this time around.

520
00:25:03.779 --> 00:25:08.460
The other moment for me that does it is, and I've said before that

521
00:25:08.460 --> 00:25:14.160
Silver Nemesis is my least favourite Silver Story, but there's

522
00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:17.400
that bit where he and Ace are wandering through the woods and Ace

523
00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:18.539
says she's actually scared.

524
00:25:18.539 --> 00:25:21.240
And the doctor's immediate reaction is, I'm so sorry.

525
00:25:21.299 --> 00:25:22.680
I didn't even think about this.

526
00:25:22.740 --> 00:25:24.299
Do you want to go back to the TARDIS?

527
00:25:24.359 --> 00:25:26.460
And she just says, no, no way.

528
00:25:26.519 --> 00:25:29.400
I'm coming with you and walks off and he just looks utterly

529
00:25:29.400 --> 00:25:30.960
bemused, like what just happened?

530
00:25:31.019 --> 00:25:34.920
And it emphasises his compassion, but it also emphasises his

531
00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:39.180
alienness because he thinks he knows what she wants.

532
00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:40.680
But actually she doesn't.

533
00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:41.460
He doesn't, rather.

534
00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:44.279
There is so many little moments to his character, but just that

535
00:25:44.279 --> 00:25:48.299
one in Silver Nemesis really sticks out for me, possibly because I

536
00:25:48.299 --> 00:25:50.039
enjoy a lot of the story less.

537
00:25:50.099 --> 00:25:55.259
But yeah, it's just that familiarity, yet unfamiliarity with human

538
00:25:55.259 --> 00:25:55.559
nature.

539
00:25:55.619 --> 00:25:59.099
They're all lovely, lovely moments.

540
00:25:59.160 --> 00:26:03.180
I mean, I still like him in the cafe with in remembrance of the

541
00:26:03.180 --> 00:26:03.359
dark.

542
00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:04.140
With John.

543
00:26:04.200 --> 00:26:04.799
I still love that.

544
00:26:04.859 --> 00:26:05.279
I love that.

545
00:26:05.339 --> 00:26:09.900
I talked about last week, the ending of Ghostlight, where he says

546
00:26:09.900 --> 00:26:10.440
weekend.

547
00:26:10.500 --> 00:26:12.480
Like it's just sublime.

548
00:26:12.539 --> 00:26:16.380
But there's another moment and it's in Paradise Towers when he

549
00:26:16.380 --> 00:26:19.859
looks down at his watch, you know, when he's, the rule book thing

550
00:26:19.859 --> 00:26:22.140
and he looks down at his watch and, like, you know, making up the

551
00:26:22.140 --> 00:26:24.839
time. that's actually the moment where he becomes the doctor for

552
00:26:24.839 --> 00:26:25.019
me.

553
00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:26.039
Yeah, yeah.

554
00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:28.259
So it's really that moment.

555
00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:33.240
And I kind of thought, okay, okay, I've endured, I'm during this.

556
00:26:33.299 --> 00:26:36.660
But I can, but there's something in you.

557
00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:38.759
My brother said the exact same thing.

558
00:26:38.819 --> 00:26:43.619
And also, I mentioned the other week that when this 1st came on in

559
00:26:43.619 --> 00:26:46.559
1987, as soon as Ace appeared and started calling him Professor

560
00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:47.339
Rod stopped watching.

561
00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:49.680
He's like, they're disrespecting the character now.

562
00:26:49.740 --> 00:26:51.000
Now they're making the character into a joke.

563
00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:56.099
We then went to a convention where Silv was and anyone who's seen

564
00:26:56.099 --> 00:26:58.019
Silv at a convention is just a force of nature.

565
00:26:58.079 --> 00:27:00.900
Like, actually, I went to one convention where the interviewer

566
00:27:00.900 --> 00:27:03.359
didn't show up and it was for Silva, Nick Courtney.

567
00:27:03.420 --> 00:27:06.180
It was meant to be sil for 15 minutes and then Nick would come

568
00:27:06.180 --> 00:27:06.420
in.

569
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:10.019
And so Silv was there for 5 minutes and just picked up the

570
00:27:10.019 --> 00:27:12.180
microphone and said, well, right, I don't think he's coming.

571
00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:13.319
Let's do this.

572
00:27:13.380 --> 00:27:17.279
And just wandering around and Nick Courtney comes in, Sylvester

573
00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:19.740
what's, uh, what, what, what, what's happening?

574
00:27:19.799 --> 00:27:22.319
And Sylvester turns around and he's got an eye.

575
00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:25.319
Well, Nicky's not turned up.

576
00:27:25.380 --> 00:27:26.039
So we're just doing this.

577
00:27:26.099 --> 00:27:27.839
I said, oh, you're wandering about.

578
00:27:27.900 --> 00:27:28.980
Do you mind if I sit up here?

579
00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:30.119
No, darling, you sit up there.

580
00:27:30.180 --> 00:27:31.559
Who has a question for Nicholas?

581
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:33.720
He's superb at this.

582
00:27:33.779 --> 00:27:37.380
Yeah, so when Rod saw him at a convention and we were up to, I

583
00:27:37.380 --> 00:27:40.259
think, pert we by that point, he said, okay, I'm looking forward

584
00:27:40.259 --> 00:27:41.400
to Sylvester now.

585
00:27:41.460 --> 00:27:45.059
And for him and my brother, that moment in Paradise Towers that

586
00:27:45.059 --> 00:27:47.460
you just mentioned was the moment where they went, oh, I see what

587
00:27:47.460 --> 00:27:47.880
he's doing.

588
00:27:47.940 --> 00:27:51.299
My brother's perspective on Sylvester is very interesting because

589
00:27:51.299 --> 00:27:55.799
Sylvester and Tom are his 2 favourite doctors and he says he likes

590
00:27:55.799 --> 00:27:58.680
both of them because they both do the exact same thing.

591
00:27:58.740 --> 00:28:00.480
They walk into a room.

592
00:28:00.599 --> 00:28:03.720
And they might be standing at the back of the room for 10 minutes

593
00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:04.980
but as soon as they...

594
00:28:04.980 --> 00:28:06.180
Quietly breaking wind.

595
00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:08.759
Just offending everyone else on.

596
00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:10.079
They work the curse of fending.

597
00:28:10.140 --> 00:28:11.160
Are they working at what's going on?

598
00:28:11.220 --> 00:28:12.539
They're working out what's going on.

599
00:28:12.599 --> 00:28:16.200
But the moment they speak, all eyes turn to them.

600
00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:17.819
And he's like, that's what I like.

601
00:28:17.940 --> 00:28:21.180
And he said, Tom Baker does it because Tom Baker is 6 foot 2 and

602
00:28:21.180 --> 00:28:21.900
in a giant coat.

603
00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:25.319
And he says, that's why I think I like Sylvestermore.

604
00:28:25.380 --> 00:28:26.640
Because Sylvester's 5 foot six.

605
00:28:26.700 --> 00:28:27.240
He tiny.

606
00:28:27.299 --> 00:28:28.380
He's in silly clothes.

607
00:28:28.440 --> 00:28:31.200
And yet he just stands at the back of the room and says, no, I

608
00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:32.220
don't think we're going to do that.

609
00:28:32.579 --> 00:28:36.299
You know, that's classified information, heaven, eh?

610
00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:38.099
And that's a big thing.

611
00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:40.019
And that's what he does in the Paradise Tower scene.

612
00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:41.519
It's just he's been sitting there for a while.

613
00:28:41.579 --> 00:28:44.700
He's been cogitating and there's even a bit in that scene where he

614
00:28:44.700 --> 00:28:46.920
kind of goes, I'm bored with this now.

615
00:28:46.980 --> 00:28:47.460
Let's go.

616
00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:49.799
Like, there's just this look on his face of, yeah, done everything

617
00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:50.519
I can do here.

618
00:28:50.579 --> 00:28:51.900
Time to get out.

619
00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:55.799
It's also an extremely doctor-ish moment because, you know, if

620
00:28:55.799 --> 00:28:59.579
that Holmes idea that the doctor's enemy is bureaucracy.

621
00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:00.599
Yes, yes.

622
00:29:00.660 --> 00:29:05.940
And so it's him defeating bureaucracy by telling clever or even

623
00:29:05.940 --> 00:29:07.859
not particularly clever lies.

624
00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:10.740
And so it is a super doctor-ish moment.

625
00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:15.420
And I think the thing you identify, Todd, is that the lie is super

626
00:29:15.420 --> 00:29:19.200
obvious because he looks at his watch in order to make up a time

627
00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:21.059
that's in the rule book.

628
00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:25.259
So he's not even bothering to tell a convincing lie at that point

629
00:29:25.259 --> 00:29:28.319
but the caretakers are so dumb that they fall for it anyway.

630
00:29:28.380 --> 00:29:31.500
And it's also the fact that after he tells the lie, he closes the

631
00:29:31.500 --> 00:29:31.740
book.

632
00:29:31.799 --> 00:29:33.359
So if they want to look it up, they're going to have to look

633
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:34.559
through the whole damn book.

634
00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:38.039
Which, even though, you know, they lived it by the book.

635
00:29:38.099 --> 00:29:41.339
I think the implication is there like some other people who live

636
00:29:41.339 --> 00:29:43.319
by certain books that they haven't actually read it.

637
00:29:43.380 --> 00:29:44.579
Ah.

638
00:29:44.579 --> 00:29:49.859
You asked me a question, Richard, about imagining the 2 doctors in

639
00:29:49.859 --> 00:29:50.460
the different areas.

640
00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:52.140
Now here's the question.

641
00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:56.400
Bonnie Langford could have stayed on for season 25.

642
00:29:56.579 --> 00:29:58.200
She was deciding whether or not to stay or not.

643
00:29:58.259 --> 00:30:00.180
Can you, any of you, a mansion?

644
00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:02.759
Like a season 25 with the character?

645
00:30:02.819 --> 00:30:07.740
So you've said, Todd, that you like Bonnie and Sylvester on Big

646
00:30:07.740 --> 00:30:08.519
Finish.

647
00:30:08.759 --> 00:30:12.599
That's the linch because you don't need to imagine you can hear

648
00:30:12.599 --> 00:30:16.380
especially in the latest ones, now they've paired her up with Ace

649
00:30:16.380 --> 00:30:18.599
how male is, much more sophisticated.

650
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:21.240
She's playing Bonnie's playing itself, clever.

651
00:30:21.299 --> 00:30:24.059
And and if we'd been able to have that.

652
00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:26.759
But the character at the time, the way she was booted and written

653
00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:28.380
no, it couldn't it wasn't working.

654
00:30:28.440 --> 00:30:32.339
The big problem is she arrives massively overcharacterized.

655
00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:33.900
But with no base.

656
00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:34.380
No.

657
00:30:34.440 --> 00:30:37.259
So we don't get to see her meet the doctor.

658
00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:38.819
I do think that's a problem.

659
00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:43.500
And like her 1st full story is written by Pip and Jane Baker.

660
00:30:43.559 --> 00:30:46.019
We get one episode by Bob Holmes.

661
00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:50.099
Another episode by Pip and Jane Baker, another story by Pip and

662
00:30:50.099 --> 00:30:53.579
Jane Baker, and they can't write convincing dialogue.

663
00:30:53.700 --> 00:30:56.819
And so she decides to play it really big and theatrical because

664
00:30:56.819 --> 00:30:58.619
it's so unnaturalistic.

665
00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:02.460
And I just don't think she ever pulls her performance back from

666
00:31:02.460 --> 00:31:02.759
there.

667
00:31:02.819 --> 00:31:07.920
And I think her best story is Delta and the Bannerman.

668
00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:13.680
And that's because on earth, somewhere recognisable and she is not

669
00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:14.279
in the studio.

670
00:31:14.339 --> 00:31:18.359
And for once, the costume and hair kind of works with a scenario

671
00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:19.740
where it's never worked before.

672
00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:23.519
So that's as close as she gets to doing a normal person.

673
00:31:23.579 --> 00:31:28.140
But, you know, she's got no origin, no proper characteristics.

674
00:31:28.200 --> 00:31:30.900
I just don't think that she works as a character.

675
00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:34.799
I think she's absolutely lovely and I really enjoy watching her.

676
00:31:34.859 --> 00:31:40.380
But like I'm not totally sold on some of the choices that Sophie

677
00:31:40.380 --> 00:31:46.019
makes throughout her era, but I think rebooting, you know, like

678
00:31:46.019 --> 00:31:49.740
the traditional screamer girly, which is what she was designed to

679
00:31:49.740 --> 00:31:53.279
be, was never going to work properly in the caramel era.

680
00:31:53.339 --> 00:31:55.619
Yeah, not even in the in the 80s.

681
00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:58.200
It just wasn't it was an odd choice. a terrible idea.

682
00:31:58.259 --> 00:32:04.019
You know, I see why JNT pitched her at that level because and

683
00:32:04.019 --> 00:32:07.079
really, for the 4 years he was producer after Tom left.

684
00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:08.880
He was making a decent show.

685
00:32:08.940 --> 00:32:13.079
You know, there were misfires, but I still think that in those 4

686
00:32:13.079 --> 00:32:14.759
seasons, there's more hits than misses.

687
00:32:14.759 --> 00:32:18.960
Yeah, it wasn't his 1st concept, Janet Fielding's character.

688
00:32:19.019 --> 00:32:21.539
Wasn't his 1st concept, Tegan Javanka.

689
00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:23.339
It's a pretty strong premise.

690
00:32:23.400 --> 00:32:24.059
Yeah, exactly.

691
00:32:24.119 --> 00:32:26.640
But then the show gets taken off for 18 months.

692
00:32:26.700 --> 00:32:29.339
He's never really given a satisfactory reason.

693
00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:32.759
Like he's told it's more violent, but yet on the other channels.

694
00:32:32.819 --> 00:32:36.059
You've got Buck Rogers and the A team killing it in the ratings

695
00:32:36.059 --> 00:32:37.799
which are more violent than Doctor Who.

696
00:32:37.859 --> 00:32:40.680
So he goes back to 1st principles.

697
00:32:40.740 --> 00:32:43.619
He's like, give us a Susan or a Vicky star character.

698
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:46.200
I agree it's completely wrong for the time, but I can kind of see

699
00:32:46.200 --> 00:32:47.400
where that comes from.

700
00:32:47.460 --> 00:32:50.160
Now, as for keeping melon in season 25.

701
00:32:50.339 --> 00:32:53.940
I've always said I would have loved to see that because You've got

702
00:32:53.940 --> 00:32:55.140
the doctors, the head.

703
00:32:55.200 --> 00:33:00.539
Ace is the hands, like, you know, the Jamie.

704
00:33:00.599 --> 00:33:01.200
Are we going with this?

705
00:33:01.259 --> 00:33:04.140
And Mel's and Mel's the heart.

706
00:33:04.200 --> 00:33:06.059
So you got brains brawn and heart.

707
00:33:06.180 --> 00:33:07.799
Ah, but nothing to sit on.

708
00:33:07.859 --> 00:33:10.019
But would they have taken on Ace?

709
00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:11.099
Like if she said no?

710
00:33:11.160 --> 00:33:14.220
Well, yeah, I think if they didn't take on Ace, that would be a

711
00:33:14.220 --> 00:33:14.579
big mistake.

712
00:33:14.640 --> 00:33:17.460
You see, when I think about this, I always think about keeping the

713
00:33:17.460 --> 00:33:19.319
3 of them together, as big finish do now.

714
00:33:19.380 --> 00:33:25.319
But I think the other problem is Mel is so good in Big Finish

715
00:33:25.319 --> 00:33:29.160
because Bonnie Langford has had an extra 15 to 30 years acting

716
00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:29.700
experience.

717
00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:35.220
And, you know, she's become a household name again and she's given

718
00:33:35.220 --> 00:33:40.079
a variety of amazing performances and has then brought that

719
00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:41.519
experience back to Big Finish.

720
00:33:41.579 --> 00:33:47.759
In order to fit Mel into the cartel vision of the show, we would

721
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:50.220
have definitely gotten more, say, computer programming stuff

722
00:33:50.220 --> 00:33:53.940
because, of course, Ace has brought in as this aggressive

723
00:33:53.940 --> 00:33:56.039
character who likes explosives.

724
00:33:56.099 --> 00:33:59.700
And so suddenly we get these stories with explosives and ace's

725
00:33:59.700 --> 00:34:02.940
scientific knowledge, having a basis in the plot.

726
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:05.220
So we would have had more of that with Mel, which would have

727
00:34:05.220 --> 00:34:05.880
grounded her more.

728
00:34:05.940 --> 00:34:12.360
But if we had have had Mel and Ace, where I'm worried is, If we

729
00:34:12.360 --> 00:34:16.199
had have had, say, Mel in remembrance of the Daleks, we've got

730
00:34:16.199 --> 00:34:18.780
then no plot role for Professor Rachel Jensen.

731
00:34:18.840 --> 00:34:20.639
In Happiness Patrol.

732
00:34:20.699 --> 00:34:24.179
We've got no role for Susie Q. We've got no role for mags.

733
00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:26.760
We've got no role for Kathleen Dudman.

734
00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:31.559
So when they write out Mel, they write in these surrogate

735
00:34:31.559 --> 00:34:35.280
characters each week and it's something we commented on, it helps

736
00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:39.059
ground the doctor in the world because he's directly affecting

737
00:34:39.059 --> 00:34:40.380
characters whom we care about.

738
00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:43.380
And those audience identification characters were quite often

739
00:34:43.380 --> 00:34:48.659
lacking in the later Peter Davidson and Colin Baker eras.

740
00:34:48.719 --> 00:34:52.920
I think, you know, the closest I can think of in trial is kind of

741
00:34:52.920 --> 00:34:53.519
Janet.

742
00:34:53.579 --> 00:34:55.559
And even then, you know...

743
00:34:55.559 --> 00:34:56.820
Splendiferous coffee.

744
00:34:56.940 --> 00:34:59.880
Even then she's very sketchily drawn.

745
00:34:59.940 --> 00:35:00.659
Yeah, exactly.

746
00:35:00.659 --> 00:35:03.480
And the actress brings something to it to make it more than what

747
00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:03.780
it is.

748
00:35:03.840 --> 00:35:04.679
Yeah, exactly.

749
00:35:04.739 --> 00:35:09.179
You know, compare Janet to Susan Q. In happiness patrol.

750
00:35:09.239 --> 00:35:12.059
There is no comparison and it's not.

751
00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:14.400
I mean, Leslie Dunlop is a great actress, but I think Yolanda

752
00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:15.119
Palfrey.

753
00:35:15.179 --> 00:35:17.760
So it's a great job with, as you say, very little.

754
00:35:17.820 --> 00:35:20.280
And I think that would be the problem with keeping Mel on, as much

755
00:35:20.280 --> 00:35:22.800
as I love Bonnie, and as much as I love Mel.

756
00:35:23.219 --> 00:35:27.960
I do think that it would have made the series more insular again.

757
00:35:28.019 --> 00:35:28.739
Okay.

758
00:35:28.739 --> 00:35:33.420
So, of course, her replacement is Sophie Aldred's ace thoughts

759
00:35:33.420 --> 00:35:33.719
comments.

760
00:35:33.780 --> 00:35:37.920
I'm not convinced that she's the best actor to ever play a

761
00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:39.179
companion on Doctor Who.

762
00:35:39.239 --> 00:35:44.280
I'm with you on that one Again, like we said with the doctor

763
00:35:44.280 --> 00:35:47.940
there's been some attempt to think about what this character's

764
00:35:47.940 --> 00:35:48.659
going to be like.

765
00:35:48.780 --> 00:35:55.139
And she is still a very sort of TV version of an 80s teenager.

766
00:35:55.199 --> 00:36:00.480
Yeah, but it is still much closer to being grounded than anyone

767
00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:02.579
has been for ages, you know.

768
00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:04.980
Like maybe since Tegan.

769
00:36:05.099 --> 00:36:09.840
Yeah, you know, I think also there is a comparison to be made to

770
00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:11.039
Sarah Jane Smith.

771
00:36:11.099 --> 00:36:14.159
And of course, during the production of this at one of the many

772
00:36:14.159 --> 00:36:17.579
Doctor Who junkets that JNT, like to send the actors to.

773
00:36:17.699 --> 00:36:19.559
Sophie Aldred and Elizabeth Slayton met.

774
00:36:19.619 --> 00:36:22.739
And Sophie Aldred said to Elizabeth Slayton, oh my god, it's so

775
00:36:22.739 --> 00:36:23.340
good to meet you.

776
00:36:23.400 --> 00:36:26.639
I'm, you know, I'm trying to bring what you did in the show and

777
00:36:26.639 --> 00:36:29.219
I'm such a fan of it and Elizabeth Swade and turned to her and

778
00:36:29.219 --> 00:36:31.440
said, but darling, you're doing so well. you're out there beating

779
00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:35.400
up Daleks and explosions and I think you're wonderful, which is a

780
00:36:35.400 --> 00:36:41.099
lovely story, but I think it is just like Sarah Jane was a TV

781
00:36:41.099 --> 00:36:43.619
version of a feminist with a career.

782
00:36:43.619 --> 00:36:45.000
Yeah.

783
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:46.559
Yeah, it's the same kind of thing.

784
00:36:46.619 --> 00:36:48.300
It's very broad strokes.

785
00:36:48.360 --> 00:36:51.659
I think possibly by the 80s we were ready for more sophisticated

786
00:36:51.659 --> 00:36:54.780
characterisation, which would have included the accent and even

787
00:36:54.780 --> 00:36:58.139
Sophie's gone on to say, of course, that she would have played it

788
00:36:58.139 --> 00:36:58.860
a little less.

789
00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:04.440
Tish.

790
00:37:04.500 --> 00:37:06.239
I always put that out of my head.

791
00:37:06.300 --> 00:37:08.760
I was actually thinking she's the really only likeable companion

792
00:37:08.760 --> 00:37:11.760
since the last upper middle-class character, which was Romano.

793
00:37:11.820 --> 00:37:13.320
You know what?

794
00:37:13.380 --> 00:37:16.380
Yeah, I mean, I mean, did you like any of the ones in between?

795
00:37:16.440 --> 00:37:17.280
That's the thing.

796
00:37:17.340 --> 00:37:20.940
You say you like Mel now, but she wasn't really a rounded.

797
00:37:20.940 --> 00:37:21.960
She was just a cypher.

798
00:37:22.019 --> 00:37:25.800
Yeah, the companions between Romana and Ace really range from

799
00:37:25.800 --> 00:37:31.019
being unlikeable to inoffensive and it's because we've snobs and

800
00:37:31.019 --> 00:37:32.579
we only like upper middle-class companies.

801
00:37:33.239 --> 00:37:35.099
I love Tegan, so you can both shut up.

802
00:37:35.159 --> 00:37:38.039
The thing is, I do kind...

803
00:37:38.099 --> 00:37:40.980
Yeah, possibly with the exception of Tegan, who I think, you know

804
00:37:40.980 --> 00:37:45.300
it shows real vulnerability as well as as well.

805
00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:47.460
And, you know, I like Turlow.

806
00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:48.420
I like Nissa.

807
00:37:48.480 --> 00:37:51.780
I have a soft spot for Adric, but I don't think he's particularly

808
00:37:51.780 --> 00:37:54.239
well written or mostly well played.

809
00:37:54.300 --> 00:37:57.960
Nicola Bryant does the best she can do with really quite an

810
00:37:57.960 --> 00:37:58.920
obnoxious character.

811
00:37:58.980 --> 00:38:01.260
Well, I don't think she's obnoxious.

812
00:38:01.320 --> 00:38:03.480
I think the way she's treated is obnoxious.

813
00:38:03.599 --> 00:38:06.239
Yes, you know, that's upsetting.

814
00:38:06.300 --> 00:38:09.539
And in fact, the more likeable she is, the more horrific the way

815
00:38:09.539 --> 00:38:11.039
that she's treated seems.

816
00:38:11.099 --> 00:38:14.760
Yeah, maybe I could actually say that this is the 1st companion

817
00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:18.420
since Romana treated with respect by the production.

818
00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:21.780
Yeah, I'd agree with you there because, you know, even even Turlo

819
00:38:21.780 --> 00:38:23.699
who got a really good intro on a really good outro just gets

820
00:38:23.699 --> 00:38:27.059
locked in cupboards whinging.

821
00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:28.019
There's a title.

822
00:38:28.079 --> 00:38:30.539
Rockting cupboards whinging.

823
00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:33.239
It might be me after I go through season 24.

824
00:38:33.420 --> 00:38:37.739
Yeah, I think Miss Sophie's, or with Ace, is that, you know, she

825
00:38:37.739 --> 00:38:44.460
starts off very much a character concept and very tomboyish.

826
00:38:44.519 --> 00:38:46.199
And by season 26.

827
00:38:46.380 --> 00:38:48.900
In all those stories, she gets to be a woman.

828
00:38:48.960 --> 00:38:54.239
Like, and I know, like, I mean, wear womanly things, not just, um

829
00:38:54.239 --> 00:38:56.159
the tomboy type of things.

830
00:38:56.219 --> 00:38:59.039
And yeah, she's still aggressive and has that strength to it, but

831
00:38:59.039 --> 00:39:01.500
she has this other side, this maturity, I think.

832
00:39:01.559 --> 00:39:04.440
And I think what's important there is, as you say, she starts off

833
00:39:04.440 --> 00:39:08.940
as the vision of a tomboy, whereas by season 26, she is combining

834
00:39:08.940 --> 00:39:13.559
societal, masculine and feminine expectations.

835
00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:17.400
Does she ever actually escape the confines of the comic book?

836
00:39:17.460 --> 00:39:20.460
She does feel like a Lee Sullivan sketch of an Alan Moore

837
00:39:20.460 --> 00:39:20.940
character.

838
00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:22.380
She's very late 80s comic.

839
00:39:22.739 --> 00:39:24.719
Sorry, graphic novels.

840
00:39:26.579 --> 00:39:28.800
It a proper art form. action figures, not dolls.

841
00:39:28.860 --> 00:39:31.860
There's that moment in Curse of Fenwick, where the doctor is

842
00:39:31.860 --> 00:39:34.380
slightly disappointed by the fact that she wants to go and look

843
00:39:34.380 --> 00:39:37.860
after Kathleen and the baby and he sort of objects.

844
00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:40.320
He says, you know, you once would have dropped everything for a

845
00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:43.800
little bit of excitement and she goes off to look after them.

846
00:39:43.800 --> 00:39:47.820
And I think that that is fantastic.

847
00:39:47.880 --> 00:39:51.480
And if we'd had Mel being the heart of the show, she wouldn't have

848
00:39:51.480 --> 00:39:53.880
had the opportunity to do that, that's sort of proper maturity.

849
00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:57.000
I like that Yeah, it's what we will see later in the new

850
00:39:57.000 --> 00:40:00.840
adventures where they turn Ace into, quote, hardened space bitch

851
00:40:00.840 --> 00:40:01.619
unquote.

852
00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:03.119
Oh so bad.

853
00:40:03.179 --> 00:40:05.579
It's such an awful misunderstanding of the character.

854
00:40:05.699 --> 00:40:08.159
And yeah, that's the thing.

855
00:40:08.219 --> 00:40:13.800
It would have been Ace was all action, all drawn, all guts, all

856
00:40:13.800 --> 00:40:17.460
beating people up, but instead she gets to have a heart and she

857
00:40:17.460 --> 00:40:18.360
gets to have emotion.

858
00:40:18.360 --> 00:40:23.219
And, you know, I can't quite put my finger on it, but there's

859
00:40:23.219 --> 00:40:27.300
something about her costume in survival with the red blouse and

860
00:40:27.300 --> 00:40:31.199
the black jeans and Chesterton school tie as a belt.

861
00:40:31.260 --> 00:40:32.820
Go back and have a look.

862
00:40:32.880 --> 00:40:33.659
Is it green and black?

863
00:40:33.719 --> 00:40:34.920
I think it is.

864
00:40:34.980 --> 00:40:37.260
You know, with her bomber jacket as well.

865
00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:40.199
It makes her look so much more grown up than she did in

866
00:40:40.199 --> 00:40:41.099
Dragonfire.

867
00:40:41.159 --> 00:40:43.260
It's this kind of weird thing of, you know, back in Dragon Pie, we

868
00:40:43.260 --> 00:40:43.679
discussed it.

869
00:40:43.739 --> 00:40:46.559
She doesn't really look 16, but it's like you put her, a picture

870
00:40:46.559 --> 00:40:50.699
of her in Dragonfire up against a picture of her in survival and

871
00:40:50.699 --> 00:40:51.599
you're like, you know what?

872
00:40:51.659 --> 00:40:52.619
That could be 2018.

873
00:40:52.920 --> 00:40:54.119
Definitely.

874
00:40:55.019 --> 00:41:00.480
I think that, um, this character and the growth and what you see

875
00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:03.360
there is something that we see in the new series with the

876
00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:05.760
companions, whether they're there for a season or two.

877
00:41:05.820 --> 00:41:08.639
Is there some sort of arc for them and some sort of understanding

878
00:41:08.639 --> 00:41:11.880
whether Martha, for example, standing our own 2 feet and not just

879
00:41:11.880 --> 00:41:13.559
being in love with the doctor and that sort of thing.

880
00:41:13.619 --> 00:41:14.880
And that's very now.

881
00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:16.019
Yeah.

882
00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:18.360
And I think that that was always a good thing.

883
00:41:18.420 --> 00:41:22.260
I'm mystified by people who complain that there are real emotions

884
00:41:22.260 --> 00:41:26.159
instead of just, you know, space guns and people in rubber suits

885
00:41:26.159 --> 00:41:28.679
you know, why do we have to have boyfriends and mothers and

886
00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:28.920
stuff?

887
00:41:28.980 --> 00:41:30.960
I don't understand that criticism at all.

888
00:41:31.019 --> 00:41:35.880
And it does start with A's, who she's still a TV person.

889
00:41:35.940 --> 00:41:39.960
She's not really a proper person, but like they make her the

890
00:41:39.960 --> 00:41:42.780
jumping off point for a number of the stories.

891
00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:44.760
And I think it's a really really good idea.

892
00:41:44.820 --> 00:41:48.659
And also, I think she gets the perfect length to develop her

893
00:41:48.659 --> 00:41:49.139
character.

894
00:41:49.199 --> 00:41:53.639
It's 9 stories here, but if we look at the new series, Martha

895
00:41:53.639 --> 00:41:58.139
Donna, Bill, all really get one season.

896
00:41:58.199 --> 00:42:00.539
So far, we don't know what's happening with Bill in the future, but

897
00:42:00.539 --> 00:42:04.139
they all get one season. stories have a clear beginning, middle

898
00:42:04.139 --> 00:42:04.500
and end.

899
00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:07.380
Whereas if you look at, say, Billy Piper as Rose.

900
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:09.780
Now she had to stay on for season 2 in order to have some

901
00:42:09.780 --> 00:42:11.699
continuity with Christopher Eccleston leaving.

902
00:42:11.760 --> 00:42:14.639
But by the end of season two, you really want to see her go.

903
00:42:14.699 --> 00:42:19.199
Yeah, you do. tooth and claw.

904
00:42:19.320 --> 00:42:22.920
But the whole point of their characterisation in the 2nd season

905
00:42:22.920 --> 00:42:25.139
they said this is, you know, the doctor and rows are getting too

906
00:42:25.139 --> 00:42:27.000
big for their boots. to be brought down a bit.

907
00:42:27.059 --> 00:42:31.320
Amy and Rory ending that 1st season with their wedding and it's

908
00:42:31.320 --> 00:42:32.400
triumphant is wonderful.

909
00:42:32.460 --> 00:42:34.199
And then look what happens in season 6.

910
00:42:34.260 --> 00:42:35.639
And then look what happens.

911
00:42:35.699 --> 00:42:39.659
The ridiculous stupid ending in season 7 that makes no logical

912
00:42:39.659 --> 00:42:43.559
narrative or emotional sense with being stuck in New York.

913
00:42:43.619 --> 00:42:44.940
For God's sake, get on a boat.

914
00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:46.380
Clara.

915
00:42:46.679 --> 00:42:50.400
Clara's ending in last Christmas is perfect.

916
00:42:50.460 --> 00:42:53.460
You know, she's had a, she's had a long life.

917
00:42:53.519 --> 00:42:56.340
You know, she kind of says, I never found another man to love

918
00:42:56.340 --> 00:42:59.519
after Danny or the doctor, but I had a brilliant life and I

919
00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:02.760
travelled and I've had fun and that's lovely compared to what we

920
00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:05.760
get in series nine, which is still dramatically interesting.

921
00:43:05.820 --> 00:43:09.599
But I think that sort of length of a character is good.

922
00:43:09.659 --> 00:43:13.019
And remember, Sophie and Andrew Cartman have said, she would have

923
00:43:13.019 --> 00:43:15.420
only stuck around for another half season.

924
00:43:15.480 --> 00:43:17.280
And they had planned her ending.

925
00:43:17.340 --> 00:43:21.480
She was going to go to Gallifrey and stir up the time lords, which

926
00:43:21.480 --> 00:43:23.940
for a script editor who's like, we're getting away from the time

927
00:43:23.940 --> 00:43:26.219
lords and we're getting away from Gallifrey is very interesting.

928
00:43:26.280 --> 00:43:29.699
But I think what it would then open up is a few years later, you

929
00:43:29.699 --> 00:43:33.719
can bring a lord president, Dorothy Dravatrelunda.

930
00:43:34.619 --> 00:43:39.840
You know, but yeah, I think the reason she's so good is because

931
00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:41.340
they're like, we don't have much time.

932
00:43:41.400 --> 00:43:43.619
We've only got 14 episodes a year, we've only got 4 stories.

933
00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:47.340
We need to give our leads something to do, and the best thing to

934
00:43:47.340 --> 00:43:50.699
do is just show them growing as people and caring about each

935
00:43:50.699 --> 00:43:50.940
other.

936
00:43:51.000 --> 00:43:54.659
And you go through the companion and I don't think it's ever been

937
00:43:54.659 --> 00:43:58.980
as much growth in a companion in the classic series as this

938
00:43:58.980 --> 00:43:59.340
character.

939
00:43:59.400 --> 00:44:03.719
We've had the Mara stuff with Tegan, but then when you look back

940
00:44:03.719 --> 00:44:08.940
Joe did grow, but it's just not quite the same as what this is and

941
00:44:08.940 --> 00:44:10.980
centuring it around her story.

942
00:44:11.039 --> 00:44:12.000
Yeah.

943
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:12.420
Yeah.

944
00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:16.079
Well, I mean, even if you look at Joe's growth, Joe doesn't grow

945
00:44:16.079 --> 00:44:18.000
that much in her 1st season.

946
00:44:19.079 --> 00:44:20.280
I've met Cody, she's tiny.

947
00:44:20.340 --> 00:44:24.719
You know, even in the Damons, where she, where she throws herself

948
00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:27.239
up and says, you know, take me instead.

949
00:44:27.300 --> 00:44:29.760
She was doing that back in Terror of the Autons.

950
00:44:29.820 --> 00:44:33.420
It's her, it's her last 2 seasons, 10 stories, where she actually

951
00:44:33.420 --> 00:44:37.619
grows and uses her escapology course and uses her karate and

952
00:44:37.619 --> 00:44:41.880
knocks out guards and takes on giant maggots and things like

953
00:44:41.880 --> 00:44:42.059
that.

954
00:44:42.119 --> 00:44:47.340
Yeah, I think sort of that story length, 10 storylines is a really

955
00:44:47.340 --> 00:44:49.619
good, is a really good length for a companion.

956
00:44:49.679 --> 00:44:51.780
And look at big finish.

957
00:44:51.840 --> 00:44:55.079
Big Finish did a few solo stories with Ace and the 7th doctor and

958
00:44:55.079 --> 00:44:58.440
then straight away introduce another companion, Hex, but really

959
00:44:58.440 --> 00:45:00.000
he's Ace's companion.

960
00:45:00.059 --> 00:45:03.719
Hex and the doctor don't have, they have a relationship.

961
00:45:03.780 --> 00:45:04.860
They don't have much for a relationship.

962
00:45:04.920 --> 00:45:06.960
It's more about the relationship between Hex and Ace.

963
00:45:07.500 --> 00:45:11.519
See, my thing is it had the series going on for another season.

964
00:45:11.579 --> 00:45:15.840
You know, I feel that they've sort of wrapped up Ace's story.

965
00:45:15.900 --> 00:45:18.900
What could they really have done with her and I would have been

966
00:45:18.900 --> 00:45:21.179
afraid that they might have decided to kill her off, which I think

967
00:45:21.179 --> 00:45:22.800
would have been appalling.

968
00:45:22.860 --> 00:45:24.960
Where could she go from there?

969
00:45:25.019 --> 00:45:25.860
Do you know what I mean?

970
00:45:25.920 --> 00:45:28.139
Like, I really think they needed to have a new companion.

971
00:45:28.199 --> 00:45:32.460
I know, of course, big finish have done this season 27 that never

972
00:45:32.460 --> 00:45:32.760
was.

973
00:45:32.820 --> 00:45:34.739
Birth Charmers's Reign.

974
00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:37.980
But, you know, I've tried to listen to 2 of those things and I've

975
00:45:37.980 --> 00:45:41.760
just gone, this, to me, just doesn't flow with what I, I don't

976
00:45:41.760 --> 00:45:44.280
know in my head or what was going to happen next and I've just

977
00:45:44.280 --> 00:45:44.639
given up.

978
00:45:44.699 --> 00:45:48.719
It's fascinating because, of course, I'm doing my new adventures

979
00:45:48.719 --> 00:45:49.260
blog.

980
00:45:49.320 --> 00:45:50.820
And, of course, bread.

981
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:54.420
I've read Warhead by Andrew Cartmel, and he has very interesting

982
00:45:54.420 --> 00:45:55.739
ideas about narrative.

983
00:45:55.800 --> 00:45:57.239
Narrative Structure.

984
00:45:57.300 --> 00:46:00.780
I think that's part of the problem with those big finish season 27

985
00:46:00.780 --> 00:46:03.840
stories is that Cartmel has a very heavy hand in them and I think

986
00:46:03.840 --> 00:46:07.380
he's a writer who is a really good script editor.

987
00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:10.739
Like he really works well with writers and honing their ideas.

988
00:46:10.800 --> 00:46:16.800
But I don't think he's necessarily as good a writer as he is a

989
00:46:16.800 --> 00:46:17.519
script editor.

990
00:46:17.579 --> 00:46:18.000
Warhead.

991
00:46:18.059 --> 00:46:21.119
I really enjoyed reading, but I was frustrated because it's kind

992
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:26.639
of like, literally, I think it's 50 or 60 pages before the doctor

993
00:46:26.639 --> 00:46:27.539
or ace appear.

994
00:46:27.599 --> 00:46:30.420
That's a new adventures trove.

995
00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:34.139
But it's also an SF writing trope, and we have come to this show

996
00:46:34.139 --> 00:46:38.940
via media and film and other and other TV shows, but we haven't

997
00:46:38.940 --> 00:46:41.159
really talked about science fiction writing.

998
00:46:41.219 --> 00:46:45.719
And really, I'd say Kartmall is a big fan of Neil Stevenson's work

999
00:46:45.719 --> 00:46:49.380
Kryptonomicon, which absolutely is about the Turing period.

1000
00:46:49.440 --> 00:46:51.300
Well, it's got tearing in it.

1001
00:46:51.300 --> 00:46:57.480
And also Werner Vinge, Werner Vinge, who was winning lots of Hugo

1002
00:46:57.480 --> 00:46:59.159
and Nebula Awards back in the day.

1003
00:46:59.219 --> 00:47:03.659
Big soaps about big characters doing very complex things with

1004
00:47:03.659 --> 00:47:07.860
other boys, and the girls that would come along would be feisty

1005
00:47:07.860 --> 00:47:12.000
and fun and interestingly racially mixed and not wearing terribly

1006
00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:16.800
much, and like Lara, blah, blah, comic.

1007
00:47:16.860 --> 00:47:19.199
That's the one, Lara Flynn Boyle slashcroft.

1008
00:47:19.260 --> 00:47:20.340
They're all the same.

1009
00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:24.900
But yeah, these boys were reading books by other straight boys

1010
00:47:24.900 --> 00:47:28.380
about things like this, and it is very much based in science

1011
00:47:28.380 --> 00:47:29.159
fiction.

1012
00:47:29.340 --> 00:47:31.019
Good, very good science fiction writing.

1013
00:47:31.079 --> 00:47:33.960
Kim Stanley Robinson is another one with his Mars series.

1014
00:47:34.019 --> 00:47:37.500
So, yeah, that it's Stronghandecedents.

1015
00:47:37.619 --> 00:47:41.159
It's just not things that probably most people who are listening

1016
00:47:41.159 --> 00:47:45.539
to this podcast are indeed watching Doctor Who necessarily go to.

1017
00:47:45.599 --> 00:47:51.179
Doctor Who is not, I feel at base, a totally guns SF fan base.

1018
00:47:51.239 --> 00:47:51.900
No, not at all.

1019
00:47:51.900 --> 00:47:54.420
Red Dwarf would have more of that than we do.

1020
00:47:54.480 --> 00:47:55.260
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1021
00:47:55.320 --> 00:47:58.260
So, Nathan, you mentioned that like we've had all these new

1022
00:47:58.260 --> 00:47:58.800
writers.

1023
00:47:58.860 --> 00:48:03.179
So putting it out to the team, is there a writer that you believe

1024
00:48:03.179 --> 00:48:04.320
stands out in this era?

1025
00:48:04.380 --> 00:48:05.519
Oh, I might jump in.

1026
00:48:05.579 --> 00:48:06.300
Yeah, yeah.

1027
00:48:06.360 --> 00:48:07.079
Let's open anybody.

1028
00:48:07.139 --> 00:48:09.420
We're all staring at Nathan now, aren't we?

1029
00:48:09.480 --> 00:48:14.340
You know, as much as Ghost Light is probably my favourite sylve.

1030
00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:19.980
I think I think I might say Stephen Wyatt is the writer who really

1031
00:48:19.980 --> 00:48:24.539
stands out for me this season because he's camp as things on a

1032
00:48:24.539 --> 00:48:25.500
bull, isn't he?

1033
00:48:25.559 --> 00:48:29.219
But, you know, Paradise Towers, even if the execution doesn't work

1034
00:48:29.219 --> 00:48:33.539
the script in its purest form straight away gets to what Cartmel

1035
00:48:33.539 --> 00:48:34.019
wants to do.

1036
00:48:34.079 --> 00:48:36.780
He wants to do social commentary with jokes and grotesque

1037
00:48:36.780 --> 00:48:37.199
characters.

1038
00:48:37.260 --> 00:48:40.199
And he talks like Charles Hawtrey in the interviews.

1039
00:48:40.260 --> 00:48:40.920
What's not to like?

1040
00:48:40.980 --> 00:48:43.619
And you know, then we've got greater show in the galaxy.

1041
00:48:43.679 --> 00:48:48.059
And Cartmel has confirmed that, yeah, Stephen Wyatt would have

1042
00:48:48.059 --> 00:48:48.960
probably come back again.

1043
00:48:49.019 --> 00:48:51.480
The only reason he wasn't in season 26 is his only 4 stories a

1044
00:48:51.480 --> 00:48:52.800
season. wouldn't that have been amazing?

1045
00:48:52.860 --> 00:48:53.340
Yeah.

1046
00:48:53.400 --> 00:48:58.019
Cartwell kind of says he literally could have done season 27 with

1047
00:48:58.019 --> 00:49:01.800
4 completely new writers that he had on his books, including Robin

1048
00:49:01.800 --> 00:49:05.639
Mukerji, who wrote a storyline for a three-parter called Elixion.

1049
00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:09.659
And whose solo went to number one when the NRL played them last

1050
00:49:09.659 --> 00:49:11.219
week on iTunes, yeah.

1051
00:49:11.280 --> 00:49:15.119
You had Robert Perry and Mike Tucker, who later wrote the book

1052
00:49:15.119 --> 00:49:15.840
Illegal Alien.

1053
00:49:15.900 --> 00:49:17.699
Yes, their proper guns, boys, aren't they?

1054
00:49:17.820 --> 00:49:19.739
That was pitched for season 26.

1055
00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:24.539
And what happened was Ben Aronovic was giving them notes on it and

1056
00:49:24.539 --> 00:49:28.199
said, I've just found out Cartmel's looking at a World War 2

1057
00:49:28.199 --> 00:49:28.860
drama.

1058
00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:32.219
If you put this in there, you know, it's not going to get

1059
00:49:32.219 --> 00:49:32.579
through.

1060
00:49:32.639 --> 00:49:34.079
Submit it for season 27.

1061
00:49:34.260 --> 00:49:36.659
And we know what happened there.

1062
00:49:36.719 --> 00:49:41.639
But yeah, for me, Stephen Wyatt, I think, really captures the

1063
00:49:41.639 --> 00:49:42.539
spirit of this era.

1064
00:49:42.719 --> 00:49:48.960
So it's Stephen Wyatt, Ian Briggs, and Ben Aronovic, who write 2

1065
00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:50.940
stories each for this era.

1066
00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:51.780
Yes.

1067
00:49:51.840 --> 00:49:54.000
Then you got Mark Malcolm Cole.

1068
00:49:54.059 --> 00:49:55.139
Graham Curry.

1069
00:49:55.199 --> 00:49:58.800
Graham Curry, Pipin Jane, Kevin Clark, and Rona.

1070
00:49:58.860 --> 00:49:59.579
Monroe.

1071
00:49:59.639 --> 00:50:06.780
I think that Ronan Monroe's script is the best script of the era.

1072
00:50:06.840 --> 00:50:08.099
In some senses anyway.

1073
00:50:08.159 --> 00:50:10.739
I think it's complex and interesting.

1074
00:50:10.800 --> 00:50:13.260
It's high, it's high art complex stuff.

1075
00:50:13.320 --> 00:50:16.139
I don't know visually it comes across as the strongest story or I

1076
00:50:16.139 --> 00:50:17.760
don't even think viewer satisfaction.

1077
00:50:17.820 --> 00:50:19.139
It's the most compelling to watch.

1078
00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:22.380
No, and there is a lot of sort of standing around spouting poetry

1079
00:50:22.380 --> 00:50:22.920
at each other.

1080
00:50:23.280 --> 00:50:28.139
Much like our action figures do in our own quiet performances, do

1081
00:50:28.139 --> 00:50:28.860
they not, Brendan?

1082
00:50:28.920 --> 00:50:29.099
Yes.

1083
00:50:29.159 --> 00:50:32.099
Little window into our lives there, dear listener.

1084
00:50:32.159 --> 00:50:40.380
Shut up So I'm thinking Aronovic. who manages to take sort of

1085
00:50:40.380 --> 00:50:44.039
elements of Doctor Who Law, like Unit and the Brigadier and the

1086
00:50:44.039 --> 00:50:44.760
Daleks.

1087
00:50:44.760 --> 00:50:46.739
Proper bugger them sideways.

1088
00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:49.380
We do interesting things with them.

1089
00:50:49.440 --> 00:50:50.519
As you might prefer to put it.

1090
00:50:50.579 --> 00:50:50.940
Yes.

1091
00:50:51.000 --> 00:50:53.340
Aaronovich is just superb.

1092
00:50:53.400 --> 00:50:54.780
And he's messy.

1093
00:50:54.840 --> 00:50:59.159
He's a really messy man in everything that he does and he's riding

1094
00:50:59.159 --> 00:51:00.900
everything else and the way he talks. love him.

1095
00:51:00.960 --> 00:51:05.699
That novelisation of remembrance is spectacular.

1096
00:51:05.760 --> 00:51:09.420
And it got recognition at the time as an SF book.

1097
00:51:09.480 --> 00:51:09.840
Yeah.

1098
00:51:09.900 --> 00:51:12.539
And, you know, it helps launch the new adventures.

1099
00:51:12.599 --> 00:51:17.099
It helps make us think that we can do original Doctor Who fiction

1100
00:51:17.099 --> 00:51:19.860
not based on the TV show once it ends.

1101
00:51:19.920 --> 00:51:24.719
And Battlefield is a mess, but I think that's mostly the

1102
00:51:24.719 --> 00:51:26.340
production and not the script at all.

1103
00:51:26.400 --> 00:51:27.960
I think it was too optimistic.

1104
00:51:28.019 --> 00:51:30.599
So I think there is some problems with the script, like having a

1105
00:51:30.599 --> 00:51:33.420
helicopter ride that goes on for...

1106
00:51:33.840 --> 00:51:37.739
There's a lot of great set pieces, but I think it needed...

1107
00:51:37.800 --> 00:51:41.280
There's a lot of standing around in medium shot yelling at each

1108
00:51:41.280 --> 00:51:41.460
other.

1109
00:51:41.519 --> 00:51:43.320
I mean, that's the production, isn't it?

1110
00:51:43.380 --> 00:51:46.980
But I think I'm not convinced the Cardinals are great script

1111
00:51:46.980 --> 00:51:52.800
editor in the sense that he can get a script and produce a series

1112
00:51:52.800 --> 00:51:54.480
of 25 minute episodes.

1113
00:51:54.480 --> 00:51:55.079
Do you mean hands on?

1114
00:51:55.139 --> 00:51:55.739
That's true.

1115
00:51:55.800 --> 00:51:55.980
Yeah.

1116
00:51:56.039 --> 00:51:59.039
There's a lot of stuff here. 30, 35 minute episodes.

1117
00:51:59.099 --> 00:52:00.599
Yeah, well, this is us true.

1118
00:52:00.659 --> 00:52:04.980
But are you saying, as he is systematically or as he is simply in

1119
00:52:04.980 --> 00:52:07.559
the performance of production, or are you saying as an ideas man?

1120
00:52:07.679 --> 00:52:10.440
Oh, no, I think he's a great ideas, man, I think he commissions

1121
00:52:10.440 --> 00:52:11.159
great stories.

1122
00:52:11.219 --> 00:52:13.800
I think he has a really good idea of where the show's going.

1123
00:52:13.860 --> 00:52:17.579
But I just mean the kind of nuts and bolts of, you know, all of

1124
00:52:17.579 --> 00:52:18.539
the scripts run long.

1125
00:52:18.599 --> 00:52:21.480
You know, there's all kinds of pacing problems all over the

1126
00:52:21.480 --> 00:52:21.719
place.

1127
00:52:21.840 --> 00:52:24.059
It's how they do it now. a dramaturk.

1128
00:52:24.119 --> 00:52:27.000
If he were working for an opera company or a theatre production

1129
00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:29.099
company, his role is very much defined.

1130
00:52:29.159 --> 00:52:30.300
They needed a 3rd wheel.

1131
00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:33.360
They needed someone else to actually be script editor.

1132
00:52:33.480 --> 00:52:36.239
Yeah, when you consider how the new series does it.

1133
00:52:36.300 --> 00:52:38.880
You have your executive producer, who's your executive producer

1134
00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:42.960
your head writer, and really, what we would call the script editor

1135
00:52:42.960 --> 00:52:47.099
now, whereas the script editor role on the new series is that 3rd

1136
00:52:47.099 --> 00:52:50.639
person who goes, right, I need to get this down to 50 minutes as

1137
00:52:50.639 --> 00:52:53.400
well as providing technical notes and saying, this is logical

1138
00:52:53.400 --> 00:52:55.079
inconsistency, et cetera, et cetera.

1139
00:52:55.139 --> 00:52:58.380
But, yeah, I have to agree, Battlefield's, the script for

1140
00:52:58.380 --> 00:52:59.219
Battlefield is great.

1141
00:52:59.280 --> 00:53:01.800
And like you said earlier, Richard, the speech about the child

1142
00:53:01.800 --> 00:53:05.340
looking up into the sky and their eyes turning to cinders.

1143
00:53:05.340 --> 00:53:09.900
And there's also lovely moments in there, like when Bambera can't

1144
00:53:09.900 --> 00:53:12.659
find the keys and Anselm figures out that's what she wants and she

1145
00:53:12.659 --> 00:53:14.099
still says, no, that's not what I wanted.

1146
00:53:14.159 --> 00:53:16.800
Yeah, any scene with the 2 of them.

1147
00:53:17.280 --> 00:53:22.739
I think that story creates a world that's really a fun place.

1148
00:53:23.280 --> 00:53:26.760
It does feel like a day out at school. doesn't it?

1149
00:53:26.820 --> 00:53:27.780
It's a lovely excuse.

1150
00:53:27.900 --> 00:53:31.260
It's really enjoyable, but I think the production is a horrific

1151
00:53:31.260 --> 00:53:31.500
mess.

1152
00:53:31.559 --> 00:53:33.179
It was fun at the time though.

1153
00:53:33.719 --> 00:53:36.119
I think it's a really good choice.

1154
00:53:36.179 --> 00:53:38.699
I think he's he's a good Doctor Who, right?

1155
00:53:38.760 --> 00:53:40.199
I think so. agree with you.

1156
00:53:40.320 --> 00:53:44.760
Look, I'm going to choose Graham Curry as a one-off because I just

1157
00:53:44.760 --> 00:53:47.519
think that story is just sublime.

1158
00:53:47.639 --> 00:53:50.880
Happiness Patrol. is my favourite of the era.

1159
00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:52.920
I thought it was going to be Ghostlight, but it's not.

1160
00:53:52.920 --> 00:53:57.059
Well, I, look, I'm, you know, my favourite period of the year.

1161
00:53:57.119 --> 00:53:59.760
I'm just going to put up the silver tinsel tree and stick silver

1162
00:53:59.760 --> 00:54:02.340
nemesis on the top of it because I don't care. really enjoy it.

1163
00:54:02.400 --> 00:54:03.480
No, no.

1164
00:54:03.539 --> 00:54:06.239
I mean, this is the lovely thing about the mixed lolly bag is that

1165
00:54:06.239 --> 00:54:08.940
there is something no matter what you want and you can put that

1166
00:54:08.940 --> 00:54:11.099
one aside and enjoy it later if you don't.

1167
00:54:11.219 --> 00:54:15.119
It's extraordinary that in just 12 stories, we've got such a

1168
00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:17.219
complete range of ideas.

1169
00:54:17.280 --> 00:54:19.260
I think the closest rider who's come next to it.

1170
00:54:19.320 --> 00:54:23.400
I know he's, you know, you can argue fast superior writer, but

1171
00:54:23.400 --> 00:54:25.559
Philip Pullman does things with tone.

1172
00:54:25.619 --> 00:54:29.760
He's got his new ones out, the new of the dark materials. his next

1173
00:54:29.760 --> 00:54:30.360
trilogy.

1174
00:54:30.420 --> 00:54:32.460
Yeah, 1st one's just out.

1175
00:54:32.519 --> 00:54:36.000
That's my pick But of the week. the turnality and the

1176
00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:36.480
differences.

1177
00:54:36.539 --> 00:54:40.440
And Kartmore really understood what a show needed to be.

1178
00:54:40.500 --> 00:54:45.480
I just wish we'd had another either extended seasons with the old

1179
00:54:45.480 --> 00:54:48.840
budgets and more time or just another 2 or 2 or 3 seasons with

1180
00:54:48.840 --> 00:54:51.539
these people would have just been lovely to see where they went.

1181
00:54:51.719 --> 00:54:55.320
Sylvester's costume changes over the time.

1182
00:54:55.380 --> 00:55:00.000
And so we have the initial one with the wrong scarf and then we've

1183
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:03.960
got the season 25 costume with question mark umbrella.

1184
00:55:04.019 --> 00:55:06.719
Then we've got season 26 with the darker coat and the pullover.

1185
00:55:06.780 --> 00:55:09.719
Then we've got the linen suit in the books.

1186
00:55:09.719 --> 00:55:13.139
And then we've got the telly movie, that costume in the hair.

1187
00:55:13.199 --> 00:55:14.639
So which one of all of those?

1188
00:55:14.699 --> 00:55:16.500
So I missed any costumes?

1189
00:55:16.559 --> 00:55:18.539
Which one of which one do you think?

1190
00:55:18.659 --> 00:55:21.059
I don't like on a costume?

1191
00:55:21.119 --> 00:55:23.880
Because I think in the end it's less of a costume like Peter and

1192
00:55:23.880 --> 00:55:25.320
Colin.

1193
00:55:25.380 --> 00:55:29.400
It's, you know, he can wear it around the place and not look like

1194
00:55:29.400 --> 00:55:31.199
a complete. was the idea, wasn't it?

1195
00:55:31.260 --> 00:55:31.679
From a distance.

1196
00:55:31.739 --> 00:55:33.360
It's only when you get up close.

1197
00:55:33.420 --> 00:55:37.679
I love the season 26 one with the overcoat. the dark.

1198
00:55:37.739 --> 00:55:38.579
I love the duffle coat.

1199
00:55:38.639 --> 00:55:39.239
Yeah, yeah.

1200
00:55:39.300 --> 00:55:43.139
I think it's a relief not to have a jacket that goes to your

1201
00:55:43.139 --> 00:55:43.440
knees.

1202
00:55:43.500 --> 00:55:46.860
You know, like we've had that for so long.

1203
00:55:47.460 --> 00:55:51.900
Look, I don't think the costume works.

1204
00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:56.400
It's got a nice sort of 50s and this mid-20th century thing to

1205
00:55:56.400 --> 00:55:56.639
it.

1206
00:55:56.699 --> 00:56:01.559
It isn't Collins costume, but like I hate the question mark

1207
00:56:01.559 --> 00:56:06.719
pullover and watching survival, like he just about passes, doesn't

1208
00:56:06.719 --> 00:56:07.019
he?

1209
00:56:07.079 --> 00:56:11.820
Oh, in the street, in the street. you know, and the trousers are a

1210
00:56:11.820 --> 00:56:15.480
nice kind of hark back to sort of trout and I guess.

1211
00:56:15.539 --> 00:56:18.900
So, you know, like I don't think it's super offensive.

1212
00:56:18.960 --> 00:56:25.619
I still think, though, the problem of the era where we're sort of

1213
00:56:25.619 --> 00:56:29.940
proleptically designing the action figure when we design the

1214
00:56:29.940 --> 00:56:30.960
doctor's costume.

1215
00:56:31.079 --> 00:56:31.980
I think that's a problem.

1216
00:56:32.039 --> 00:56:34.800
I think they were still doing it with Matt Smith.

1217
00:56:34.860 --> 00:56:36.960
Of that final season, Matt Smithing was ridiculous.

1218
00:56:37.019 --> 00:56:40.980
It was such a fan art idea and put him in purple because, you know

1219
00:56:40.980 --> 00:56:44.159
that's what all fans into, you know, some of us here as well.

1220
00:56:44.219 --> 00:56:46.440
It's what we all kind of favour.

1221
00:56:46.500 --> 00:56:48.000
Yeah, so everyone's looking at me.

1222
00:56:48.239 --> 00:56:52.800
But yeah, I think designing is always the wrong idea.

1223
00:56:52.860 --> 00:56:54.239
It should be brickolage.

1224
00:56:54.300 --> 00:56:55.199
Pete's idea was correct.

1225
00:56:55.260 --> 00:56:56.760
But it was Silv's hat.

1226
00:56:56.820 --> 00:56:59.219
And the fair aisle idea.

1227
00:56:59.280 --> 00:57:02.760
You know, he walked in with that Christie Panama hat.

1228
00:57:02.760 --> 00:57:04.679
And the lovely, the Ferrari thing.

1229
00:57:04.800 --> 00:57:06.780
I actually love the telly movie idea, even though it's the San

1230
00:57:06.780 --> 00:57:10.380
Francisco designers or, you know, the US designer's idea of what

1231
00:57:10.380 --> 00:57:11.519
an English gentleman looked like.

1232
00:57:11.579 --> 00:57:13.019
I just really like it.

1233
00:57:13.079 --> 00:57:15.119
But I love the silhouette and I love that.

1234
00:57:15.179 --> 00:57:15.900
No, it's gorgeous.

1235
00:57:15.960 --> 00:57:16.679
Love it.

1236
00:57:16.739 --> 00:57:17.460
I'd wear it.

1237
00:57:17.519 --> 00:57:22.139
Yeah, the telly movie is exactly what Silv wanted the...

1238
00:57:22.199 --> 00:57:22.920
He said.

1239
00:57:22.980 --> 00:57:26.880
Like, he said, you know, a waistcoat instead of instead of the

1240
00:57:26.880 --> 00:57:27.900
question mark, pull over.

1241
00:57:27.960 --> 00:57:29.760
He might have been happy with the time.

1242
00:57:29.820 --> 00:57:32.639
It was, and Armani needed time. yeah, lovely.

1243
00:57:32.699 --> 00:57:36.300
But don't forget, Armani also designed for Blade Runner in 81.

1244
00:57:36.420 --> 00:57:37.679
They were his.

1245
00:57:37.739 --> 00:57:39.599
So those little knitted overcheck.

1246
00:57:39.719 --> 00:57:39.960
Right.

1247
00:57:40.019 --> 00:57:40.800
Oh, okay.

1248
00:57:40.860 --> 00:57:43.920
Um, in terms of the costume.

1249
00:57:43.980 --> 00:57:47.699
Silv has said, I mentioned earlier, the whole thing about, he

1250
00:57:47.699 --> 00:57:50.639
signed on for a 3rd year, but knew that that obliged him for a

1251
00:57:50.639 --> 00:57:51.420
4th.

1252
00:57:51.480 --> 00:57:53.880
Well, the way he rationalised that to himself is right at the end

1253
00:57:53.880 --> 00:57:54.420
of year three.

1254
00:57:54.480 --> 00:57:56.940
I'm going to say to them, right, I've agreed to do your 4th year.

1255
00:57:57.000 --> 00:57:59.579
We're getting rid of the question mark pull over.

1256
00:57:59.639 --> 00:58:02.699
So in the last season, he would have had a fair, fair aisle

1257
00:58:02.699 --> 00:58:05.519
pullover or a waistcoat or something like that.

1258
00:58:05.579 --> 00:58:07.320
He loved the umbrella.

1259
00:58:07.380 --> 00:58:09.960
He thought the umbrella was actually subtle and it is.

1260
00:58:10.019 --> 00:58:12.960
He said it's his idea whether or not that's the case, but because

1261
00:58:12.960 --> 00:58:15.900
you know, if you put your hand over the joint, it doesn't look

1262
00:58:15.900 --> 00:58:16.559
like a question mark.

1263
00:58:16.800 --> 00:58:20.639
Personally, as a kid, I never had a problem with the pullover.

1264
00:58:20.699 --> 00:58:23.039
I don't particularly have a problem with it now because as you say

1265
00:58:23.039 --> 00:58:25.019
it's that thing of from a distance.

1266
00:58:25.079 --> 00:58:27.599
You can't see there's anything strange about it.

1267
00:58:27.659 --> 00:58:30.119
And even close up, you're looking at self's face.

1268
00:58:30.239 --> 00:58:35.639
So it's like a surrounding detail that you'll notice that, for me

1269
00:58:35.639 --> 00:58:36.719
anyway, that you'll notice later.

1270
00:58:36.780 --> 00:58:38.639
I know a lot of people say they just can't get past it.

1271
00:58:38.699 --> 00:58:43.320
And it does go against the bricolage idea of that is bespoke.

1272
00:58:43.380 --> 00:58:44.760
You're not just going to find it somewhere.

1273
00:58:44.820 --> 00:58:49.199
But everything else is bricolage, like the field jacket and the

1274
00:58:49.199 --> 00:58:50.159
duffle code, of course.

1275
00:58:50.219 --> 00:58:51.300
The accent.

1276
00:58:51.360 --> 00:58:52.139
The accent.

1277
00:58:52.679 --> 00:58:54.360
Doing it now.

1278
00:58:55.199 --> 00:59:04.800
The hat, the trousers, the shoes. must have own teeth.

1279
00:59:04.860 --> 00:59:10.619
You know, so I think the reason the pullover kind of works is that

1280
00:59:10.619 --> 00:59:15.539
everything else around it, while eccentric is essentially a normal

1281
00:59:15.539 --> 00:59:19.019
piece, which you put it together and it creates something

1282
00:59:19.019 --> 00:59:19.739
strange.

1283
00:59:20.940 --> 00:59:23.519
What do you think about the question?

1284
00:59:23.579 --> 00:59:25.739
Well, actually, sorry, your question was favourite version of the

1285
00:59:25.739 --> 00:59:26.099
costume?

1286
00:59:26.159 --> 00:59:26.940
Season 26.

1287
00:59:27.119 --> 00:59:28.079
Yeah.

1288
00:59:28.079 --> 00:59:33.659
But I can I can digit a pullover like for the waistcoat from the

1289
00:59:33.659 --> 00:59:34.920
telly movie quite happily.

1290
00:59:34.980 --> 00:59:35.400
Yeah.

1291
00:59:35.400 --> 00:59:41.280
I'm happy when he gets rid of the mashed up season 24 hat and just

1292
00:59:41.280 --> 00:59:43.440
gets a hat that hasn't been mashed up.

1293
00:59:43.500 --> 00:59:47.340
And so, you know, sometimes when he puts his hat on in season 24

1294
00:59:47.340 --> 00:59:51.239
it's so mashed up that he just looks like an idiot, the Paradise

1295
00:59:51.239 --> 00:59:54.539
Towers, there are a couple of really atrocious hat moments.

1296
00:59:54.599 --> 00:59:58.800
But I have to agree with Alan Waring, who tries to get rid of the

1297
00:59:58.800 --> 01:00:02.400
hat and the umbrella, you know, at the 1st possible opportunity

1298
01:00:02.400 --> 01:00:05.940
and so he doesn't wear them in ghost light because he's not an

1299
01:00:05.940 --> 01:00:07.320
animal and he's inside.

1300
01:00:07.380 --> 01:00:09.360
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1301
01:00:09.659 --> 01:00:13.260
But also, very interestingly, it goes like, he waits to take them

1302
01:00:13.260 --> 01:00:17.699
off until a servant takes them because that's what you do in

1303
01:00:17.699 --> 01:00:18.480
polite society.

1304
01:00:18.539 --> 01:00:21.599
It's not your responsibility to take your hat off.

1305
01:00:21.659 --> 01:00:25.739
It is the host's responsibility to have a servant take your hat

1306
01:00:25.800 --> 01:00:27.119
part of the welcoming, right?

1307
01:00:27.179 --> 01:00:29.460
That's why I'm still wearing my hat now, Brendan.

1308
01:00:29.519 --> 01:00:31.260
Yeah, but that's because I don't like you.

1309
01:00:31.320 --> 01:00:33.659
I do like the cherries though.

1310
01:00:33.719 --> 01:00:35.760
I think they're quite become it.

1311
01:00:35.820 --> 01:00:37.559
Yeah, no, it was Missy's idea.

1312
01:00:37.619 --> 01:00:39.360
May week was in June.

1313
01:00:39.599 --> 01:00:43.559
I think I'm going into a food coma after eating.

1314
01:00:43.559 --> 01:00:45.719
I'm only halfway through.

1315
01:00:46.260 --> 01:00:47.820
The cake.

1316
01:00:47.880 --> 01:00:48.780
The cake job.

1317
01:00:48.840 --> 01:00:49.320
Okay.

1318
01:00:49.380 --> 01:00:49.980
Don't panic.

1319
01:00:50.760 --> 01:00:52.619
This podcast.

1320
01:00:52.679 --> 01:00:58.139
I guess I need to drag myself back into some sort of, um, not food

1321
01:00:58.139 --> 01:01:00.239
coma and I'll have to talk about season 24.

1322
01:01:00.420 --> 01:01:02.639
I had promised to rant.

1323
01:01:02.699 --> 01:01:05.699
I don't feel like doing a rant because I'm in a room with people

1324
01:01:05.699 --> 01:01:07.739
who love this and I'm feeling very...

1325
01:01:08.760 --> 01:01:09.659
That should just be encouraged.

1326
01:01:09.719 --> 01:01:10.619
This is a safe space.

1327
01:01:10.679 --> 01:01:13.139
This is a safe space. can I walk back?

1328
01:01:13.199 --> 01:01:17.400
I think that we were enthusiastic about those stories, and I think

1329
01:01:17.400 --> 01:01:22.619
that for me, season 24 came as a relief because it was doing

1330
01:01:22.619 --> 01:01:24.059
things the show hadn't done before.

1331
01:01:24.119 --> 01:01:26.460
And and I agree with you.

1332
01:01:26.519 --> 01:01:30.059
There's a huge relief that it's no longer sober, and it's no

1333
01:01:30.059 --> 01:01:31.139
longer 14 episodes.

1334
01:01:31.199 --> 01:01:34.199
And that's obvious in the 1st 2 episodes of the season.

1335
01:01:34.260 --> 01:01:35.820
And I really like...

1336
01:01:35.820 --> 01:01:42.000
I like Hadamara playing Mel, which I didn't like as a kid, and the

1337
01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:43.440
doctor having amnesia for those bits.

1338
01:01:43.559 --> 01:01:45.900
I hate all the pratforms and the spoon playing.

1339
01:01:45.960 --> 01:01:50.099
We get to the scene where the doctor meets Mel for the 1st time.

1340
01:01:50.159 --> 01:01:52.980
And I know Brendan loves that sequence, but I think it's one of

1341
01:01:52.980 --> 01:01:55.739
the worst sequences ever perpetrated by a lead actor and actress

1342
01:01:55.739 --> 01:01:57.000
in the history of Doctor Who.

1343
01:01:57.059 --> 01:02:00.239
And from that moment, I actually really enjoy it too.

1344
01:02:00.300 --> 01:02:02.880
From that, it's no offence.

1345
01:02:03.239 --> 01:02:06.059
Of course not, dying. enjoying this.

1346
01:02:06.119 --> 01:02:09.719
But from that moment on, the whole story just falls apart for me.

1347
01:02:09.780 --> 01:02:14.280
I don't like the big performance of the Rani.

1348
01:02:14.340 --> 01:02:17.579
I just want to get that nose ring and rip it out of her nose.

1349
01:02:17.639 --> 01:02:19.440
I hate her TARDIS.

1350
01:02:19.500 --> 01:02:22.739
The, the, the, the pet traps really hurt.

1351
01:02:22.800 --> 01:02:27.360
The tet traps, I just are a waste of space, wider their eyes

1352
01:02:27.360 --> 01:02:28.500
connect to scanners.

1353
01:02:28.559 --> 01:02:29.039
I don't know.

1354
01:02:29.099 --> 01:02:32.219
They're only really there for the Pip and Jane Baker ending so she

1355
01:02:32.219 --> 01:02:34.380
comes showing up in that crap tartar set.

1356
01:02:34.440 --> 01:02:37.079
God, I was disappointed that it was not the original one and I

1357
01:02:37.079 --> 01:02:37.860
know why it wasn't.

1358
01:02:38.039 --> 01:02:44.340
I'm not an advocate for genocide, but, but, but I will say this

1359
01:02:44.340 --> 01:02:48.539
that I've never wanted a species to be killed more than the

1360
01:02:48.539 --> 01:02:49.440
locertians.

1361
01:02:49.500 --> 01:02:54.900
And when and when he falls that foot out, I go to bed at night

1362
01:02:54.900 --> 01:02:58.800
dreaming that those bugs in that globe, get a released and they

1363
01:02:58.800 --> 01:02:59.940
all just get stung to death.

1364
01:03:00.000 --> 01:03:01.079
Like, I don't want that to happen.

1365
01:03:01.139 --> 01:03:03.960
Many of us said that at the fan community at the time.

1366
01:03:04.019 --> 01:03:06.719
I like his performance. like his performance.

1367
01:03:06.780 --> 01:03:07.260
It's good.

1368
01:03:07.320 --> 01:03:09.360
My Kona's performance is good.

1369
01:03:09.420 --> 01:03:12.480
Farun, I mean, honestly, it's either your daughter or your husband

1370
01:03:12.480 --> 01:03:15.119
who was dead there, you stupid woman, just standing there and then

1371
01:03:15.119 --> 01:03:16.980
your husband decides to commit suicide because he's a

1372
01:03:16.980 --> 01:03:17.519
collaborator.

1373
01:03:17.519 --> 01:03:20.820
I just completely disagree with everything else that you guys had

1374
01:03:20.820 --> 01:03:21.960
to say on that.

1375
01:03:22.019 --> 01:03:25.679
And I just, the last 2 episodes were just combined with the music

1376
01:03:25.679 --> 01:03:26.519
almost turgent.

1377
01:03:26.579 --> 01:03:29.159
But there's a 7 out of 10 in that 1st part of the story.

1378
01:03:29.159 --> 01:03:30.480
Then there's Bonnie Langford.

1379
01:03:30.539 --> 01:03:33.659
I would like to go to one language and say, did the director tell

1380
01:03:33.659 --> 01:03:36.659
you to look at everybody like they've got a 3rd eye in the middle

1381
01:03:36.659 --> 01:03:38.039
of their head throughout the entire story?

1382
01:03:38.099 --> 01:03:39.599
the entire story.

1383
01:03:39.659 --> 01:03:41.340
Does she not look at anybody in the eye?

1384
01:03:41.400 --> 01:03:43.199
I'm going to have to look.

1385
01:03:43.199 --> 01:03:45.780
She looks here all the time and I'm going, for God's sake, please

1386
01:03:45.780 --> 01:03:48.179
just, just look, look, look, look at them.

1387
01:03:48.239 --> 01:03:50.699
I thought we were doing the cave monster.

1388
01:03:50.760 --> 01:03:54.480
I do laugh. when all of the Tetrats come out and Mel just keeps

1389
01:03:54.480 --> 01:03:57.179
having to scream, scream, and scream, and goes into Bay Assam to

1390
01:03:57.179 --> 01:03:57.900
just laugh at that.

1391
01:03:57.960 --> 01:04:00.840
And there's a great cliffhanger. one when she's in that bubble.

1392
01:04:00.900 --> 01:04:03.420
But of course, I wish to God that it exploded and she's just a

1393
01:04:03.420 --> 01:04:04.800
skeleton. that's how I feel.

1394
01:04:04.860 --> 01:04:08.340
So, so, but the story has improved dramatically for me.

1395
01:04:08.400 --> 01:04:09.480
I just want to say that.

1396
01:04:09.539 --> 01:04:12.900
I think there's a 7 out of 10 in there and I really enjoy that 1st

1397
01:04:12.900 --> 01:04:13.800
episode and a half .

1398
01:04:13.860 --> 01:04:16.739
Again, all the jokes that Sylvester does all the way through to

1399
01:04:16.739 --> 01:04:19.260
the end, like they're getting to do all those stupid puns.

1400
01:04:19.320 --> 01:04:20.940
It should have just stopped after the amnesia stopped.

1401
01:04:21.000 --> 01:04:21.599
It's just terrible.

1402
01:04:21.659 --> 01:04:23.579
Okay, so it's time in the money for me.

1403
01:04:23.639 --> 01:04:25.980
It's not in my top 3 worst Doctor Who's of all the time.

1404
01:04:26.039 --> 01:04:26.820
It's now number five.

1405
01:04:27.420 --> 01:04:31.079
I'm going somewhere that should be...

1406
01:04:31.139 --> 01:04:33.179
Then we have Paradise Towers.

1407
01:04:33.239 --> 01:04:34.739
A really good script.

1408
01:04:34.860 --> 01:04:38.880
What the hell the director was thinking. do not know.

1409
01:04:38.940 --> 01:04:40.019
The Kangs.

1410
01:04:40.079 --> 01:04:42.539
Oh my god, Julie Brennan is just shrill and awful.

1411
01:04:42.599 --> 01:04:45.900
I like the other one and she gets better throughout and has a nice

1412
01:04:45.900 --> 01:04:47.099
relationship with McCoy.

1413
01:04:47.159 --> 01:04:49.920
And again, I've said that I like Sylvester's performance generally

1414
01:04:49.920 --> 01:04:50.340
through this.

1415
01:04:50.400 --> 01:04:52.739
The music is horrific.

1416
01:04:52.800 --> 01:04:54.539
I get a headache.

1417
01:04:54.599 --> 01:04:57.780
The lighting is appalling, and I know we're trying to do some

1418
01:04:57.780 --> 01:04:59.940
lighting, but God knows it just doesn't work.

1419
01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:05.340
Oh, the caretakers, whatever, the residents, whatever. except for

1420
01:05:05.340 --> 01:05:07.559
Tabby and Tilda, who I quite like, but not as much as I thought.

1421
01:05:07.619 --> 01:05:11.219
I like the one that goes cooey, cooey, like...

1422
01:05:11.219 --> 01:05:13.139
She is...

1423
01:05:13.199 --> 01:05:16.440
And if this had a different pitch to it, she would be just, oh

1424
01:05:16.440 --> 01:05:17.099
amazing.

1425
01:05:17.159 --> 01:05:21.179
The cliffhanger with Mel with that bat toasting fork.

1426
01:05:21.239 --> 01:05:22.019
Toasting fork?

1427
01:05:22.079 --> 01:05:25.199
I have never wanted a moment in Doctor Who history for somebody to

1428
01:05:25.199 --> 01:05:28.559
go Game of Thrones on us and just stab her in the throat so that

1429
01:05:28.559 --> 01:05:30.480
in the next episode she just drops dead.

1430
01:05:30.539 --> 01:05:32.400
I've never wanted it more in my entire life.

1431
01:05:32.460 --> 01:05:34.619
I'm inching towards Richard Mel?

1432
01:05:34.679 --> 01:05:38.760
I have to say that Pex and Mel completely destroy this story.

1433
01:05:38.820 --> 01:05:40.920
What's going on in Paris, Toast Towers?

1434
01:05:40.980 --> 01:05:43.440
Well, I can tell you, honey, if we edit out all your scenes in the

1435
01:05:43.440 --> 01:05:45.719
corridor and in that lift, it would be just so much better.

1436
01:05:45.780 --> 01:05:49.559
You guys mentioned the stuff about the fact that it was like a

1437
01:05:49.559 --> 01:05:52.739
pantomime and she's a pantomime princess and he's like the comic

1438
01:05:52.739 --> 01:05:53.400
sidekick.

1439
01:05:53.460 --> 01:05:54.059
Well, that's great.

1440
01:05:54.119 --> 01:05:57.000
Just doesn't work and it's, it's a horrific performance.

1441
01:05:57.059 --> 01:05:58.260
Horrific.

1442
01:05:58.320 --> 01:05:59.219
Where am I going with this?

1443
01:05:59.280 --> 01:06:00.599
I'm going with this breath.

1444
01:06:00.659 --> 01:06:01.199
No, no, no.

1445
01:06:01.260 --> 01:06:01.980
I'm not even there yet.

1446
01:06:02.039 --> 01:06:03.900
Oh, Richard Bryce.

1447
01:06:03.960 --> 01:06:06.179
Well, I mean, if that doesn't take the cake, I don't know what

1448
01:06:06.179 --> 01:06:06.780
does.

1449
01:06:06.840 --> 01:06:09.599
He is just appalling throughout the entire thing.

1450
01:06:09.599 --> 01:06:11.400
Yeah, we did say that.

1451
01:06:11.460 --> 01:06:13.260
I agree with you.

1452
01:06:13.320 --> 01:06:14.159
But it's the tone.

1453
01:06:14.219 --> 01:06:15.360
Everybody's tone is different.

1454
01:06:15.360 --> 01:06:19.500
And I do think that, for me, the biggest disappointment here is

1455
01:06:19.500 --> 01:06:21.539
the fact that the script is good and I can recognise that and

1456
01:06:21.539 --> 01:06:24.780
recognise it in the book and it's just the performances and I just

1457
01:06:24.780 --> 01:06:27.599
really dislike Melon Pecks, just take the cake.

1458
01:06:27.659 --> 01:06:29.579
And again, you love the scene where he rips that thing off the

1459
01:06:29.579 --> 01:06:31.980
wall and I just kind of go, are you kidding me?

1460
01:06:32.039 --> 01:06:34.380
My eyes are rolling and I just want this thing to stop.

1461
01:06:34.440 --> 01:06:38.699
And you know, I respect you for, and I can understand, but it's

1462
01:06:38.699 --> 01:06:43.320
just like, like, this is now on the pedestal of the, it's going

1463
01:06:43.320 --> 01:06:45.960
for gold in the 3 worst Dr. 2 stories of all time.

1464
01:06:46.019 --> 01:06:47.519
Who's the director?

1465
01:06:48.179 --> 01:06:50.219
Nicholas Mallon.

1466
01:06:50.280 --> 01:06:52.079
But what else does Nicholas Mallard do?

1467
01:06:52.139 --> 01:06:53.280
The curse of Benrik.

1468
01:06:53.340 --> 01:06:53.699
Yeah, yeah.

1469
01:06:53.820 --> 01:06:57.119
And is it because he's out of the studio that suddenly he... and

1470
01:06:57.119 --> 01:06:59.039
he does and he also does Mysterious Planet.

1471
01:06:59.099 --> 01:06:59.519
You know?

1472
01:06:59.579 --> 01:07:00.420
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1473
01:07:00.480 --> 01:07:02.639
So it's like Peter Moffat on location is so much better.

1474
01:07:02.699 --> 01:07:04.260
Except in 2 doctors.

1475
01:07:04.320 --> 01:07:04.920
Okay, go on.

1476
01:07:04.980 --> 01:07:09.360
So that, so now I like one episode and the other 7 so far. crap.

1477
01:07:09.420 --> 01:07:10.019
All right.

1478
01:07:10.079 --> 01:07:11.099
Delton the Bundman.

1479
01:07:11.159 --> 01:07:16.679
This, when it came out in 997 became my gold standard of the most

1480
01:07:16.679 --> 01:07:18.360
hated Drop 2 story of all time.

1481
01:07:18.420 --> 01:07:25.500
And it held that banner for like, 1987, probably 15 years, 16

1482
01:07:25.500 --> 01:07:26.340
years.

1483
01:07:26.400 --> 01:07:27.780
You refused to buy the DVD.

1484
01:07:27.840 --> 01:07:29.760
I refused to buy the DVD. refused.

1485
01:07:29.820 --> 01:07:31.260
I would have I just refused.

1486
01:07:31.320 --> 01:07:33.659
Didn't James buy it for you in the end of four.

1487
01:07:33.719 --> 01:07:34.920
Someone gave it to me, I'm sure.

1488
01:07:34.980 --> 01:07:40.079
Anyway, the worst thing about children's Batman. is Delta and the

1489
01:07:40.079 --> 01:07:40.679
Bannerman.

1490
01:07:40.739 --> 01:07:43.139
She is so shrill.

1491
01:07:43.199 --> 01:07:44.579
I just want her to die.

1492
01:07:44.639 --> 01:07:49.260
In fact, I'm not an advocate for genocide, but again, but I just

1493
01:07:49.260 --> 01:07:50.820
want the shimmer dead.

1494
01:07:50.880 --> 01:07:52.320
I want her and her child to be destroyed.

1495
01:07:52.380 --> 01:07:54.300
I could not agree with Gavrock more.

1496
01:07:54.360 --> 01:07:57.420
I agree with Richard where he says, Oh, Billy, I mean, he's just a

1497
01:07:57.420 --> 01:07:58.199
waste of space.

1498
01:07:58.260 --> 01:08:00.300
But you were saying like they were going to eat him.

1499
01:08:00.960 --> 01:08:04.139
I actually had it the other way around where he takes that stuff

1500
01:08:04.139 --> 01:08:07.679
and becomes like Mark Gatis in that doctor episode where it

1501
01:08:07.679 --> 01:08:10.920
becomes that whole scorpion thing just to consume them.

1502
01:08:10.980 --> 01:08:12.960
Oh my god, I hate that woman so much.

1503
01:08:13.019 --> 01:08:15.119
Then flames.

1504
01:08:16.079 --> 01:08:19.260
Then you've got, you've got the Bannerman.

1505
01:08:19.319 --> 01:08:22.079
The moment they stick out their tongues. just want to reach for a

1506
01:08:22.079 --> 01:08:22.619
bucket.

1507
01:08:22.680 --> 01:08:26.699
And then you were telling us, Brendan, that it was Gavrock's idea

1508
01:08:26.699 --> 01:08:27.720
Don Henderson.

1509
01:08:27.779 --> 01:08:29.039
I can't stand him.

1510
01:08:29.100 --> 01:08:32.760
He looks like he's from an old person's home where he's been

1511
01:08:32.760 --> 01:08:38.220
allowed to sit in his own faeces and I just...

1512
01:08:38.220 --> 01:08:39.239
I just can't.

1513
01:08:39.239 --> 01:08:42.600
And when he speaks out that piece of ham, I'm just thinking, oh, my

1514
01:08:42.600 --> 01:08:43.319
God, just die.

1515
01:08:43.380 --> 01:08:45.779
And that old beekeeper.

1516
01:08:45.840 --> 01:08:46.859
That beekeeper.

1517
01:08:46.920 --> 01:08:49.920
I just have all of this manuka honey to fall all over him and put

1518
01:08:49.920 --> 01:08:52.020
a 1000 bees to sting him to death.

1519
01:08:52.140 --> 01:08:54.659
Does he have to hammer it home one more 2nd that she's going

1520
01:08:54.659 --> 01:08:56.579
through some sort of metamorphosis?

1521
01:08:56.640 --> 01:08:57.119
I don't know.

1522
01:08:57.180 --> 01:08:59.039
And on top of all of that, people.

1523
01:08:59.279 --> 01:09:03.420
You then got the worst incidental score in the history of Doctor

1524
01:09:03.420 --> 01:09:03.840
Who.

1525
01:09:03.899 --> 01:09:06.840
I know you love it, Nathan, but I just think it just, it adds no

1526
01:09:06.840 --> 01:09:12.300
suspense, nothing, nothing at all to the show, and I discovered I

1527
01:09:12.300 --> 01:09:14.939
really hate late 1950s rock music.

1528
01:09:15.000 --> 01:09:16.739
I like 1960s pop so much more.

1529
01:09:16.800 --> 01:09:20.460
So throughout this entire production of Delta and the Man, these

1530
01:09:20.460 --> 01:09:23.939
things, in my face that I'm going, I know why I hated this.

1531
01:09:24.000 --> 01:09:26.699
You still give it a solid 8 though. don't they?

1532
01:09:26.760 --> 01:09:27.479
Give it a six.

1533
01:09:28.380 --> 01:09:29.939
Six.

1534
01:09:30.000 --> 01:09:34.979
But, and this is what I discovered when I last watched it.

1535
01:09:35.520 --> 01:09:37.739
Ken Dodd is fantastic.

1536
01:09:37.800 --> 01:09:38.699
Yes.

1537
01:09:38.699 --> 01:09:40.199
It really is.

1538
01:09:40.560 --> 01:09:46.140
Burton is one of the best characters in the history of Doctor Who

1539
01:09:46.140 --> 01:09:48.420
and I just adore him to death.

1540
01:09:48.479 --> 01:09:53.579
And the other person who I think is just stunning is the bus

1541
01:09:53.579 --> 01:09:54.539
driver Murray.

1542
01:09:54.600 --> 01:09:57.180
Horrific end.

1543
01:09:57.180 --> 01:09:58.500
He's lovely.

1544
01:09:58.500 --> 01:09:59.880
He's just lovely.

1545
01:09:59.939 --> 01:10:01.199
He is the biggest revelation.

1546
01:10:01.260 --> 01:10:03.359
And those 3 people.

1547
01:10:04.020 --> 01:10:07.439
And one other, keep me watching this show.

1548
01:10:07.920 --> 01:10:09.840
Oh, who's the other?

1549
01:10:09.960 --> 01:10:11.880
Bonnie Langford.

1550
01:10:12.000 --> 01:10:14.159
I think it's her best performance.

1551
01:10:14.220 --> 01:10:15.060
I agree.

1552
01:10:15.119 --> 01:10:21.000
And episode one, that outfit, everybody goes on about the other

1553
01:10:21.000 --> 01:10:24.420
one, the denim one, but that blue and white thing that she's

1554
01:10:24.420 --> 01:10:25.739
wearing is just stunning.

1555
01:10:25.800 --> 01:10:28.319
It's super on trend for 1987.

1556
01:10:29.340 --> 01:10:31.020
She's so good.

1557
01:10:31.140 --> 01:10:34.319
Unfortunately, she gets to scream at a green baby and she gets

1558
01:10:34.319 --> 01:10:35.279
saved again.

1559
01:10:35.279 --> 01:10:36.239
Yes.

1560
01:10:36.300 --> 01:10:38.399
And she gets to say that immortal light.

1561
01:10:38.460 --> 01:10:41.760
I never won anything before in my life, making her such a loser.

1562
01:10:41.880 --> 01:10:44.039
I hate it when TV coaches do that.

1563
01:10:44.760 --> 01:10:47.399
I hated this story for so long.

1564
01:10:47.460 --> 01:10:48.840
And then we did watch it together.

1565
01:10:48.899 --> 01:10:51.180
And I did find myself enjoying it.

1566
01:10:51.239 --> 01:10:54.060
And those aspects when I rewatched it this time came through.

1567
01:10:54.119 --> 01:10:58.140
So it's this thing that you guys were saying about the tone of

1568
01:10:58.140 --> 01:11:01.500
this season, the inconsistency in performance and tone.

1569
01:11:01.560 --> 01:11:03.000
I really have a problem with.

1570
01:11:03.060 --> 01:11:07.500
And for me, incidental scores actually really set a tone for all

1571
01:11:07.500 --> 01:11:10.920
things and not having, and I think that actively works against

1572
01:11:10.920 --> 01:11:12.420
more enjoyment, I think.

1573
01:11:12.539 --> 01:11:16.500
Three stories in a row with Kev McCulloch's music.

1574
01:11:16.560 --> 01:11:18.960
I mean, you I know you really love the Delta.

1575
01:11:18.960 --> 01:11:21.239
Well, I'm not sure I don't like that.

1576
01:11:21.239 --> 01:11:22.020
But I don't.

1577
01:11:22.079 --> 01:11:24.840
And so it really, by that point, you know, it's really, really

1578
01:11:24.840 --> 01:11:25.380
tough.

1579
01:11:25.439 --> 01:11:29.579
We then get Dragonfire, and I agree with you all that it's not the

1580
01:11:29.579 --> 01:11:30.239
best script.

1581
01:11:30.300 --> 01:11:33.659
In fact, I really don't like a lot of the cafe scenes and that

1582
01:11:33.659 --> 01:11:34.739
woman and that little girl.

1583
01:11:34.859 --> 01:11:36.779
I've never wanted the ogre back more.

1584
01:11:37.260 --> 01:11:41.399
You get my meaning and fans true fans will.

1585
01:11:41.460 --> 01:11:45.720
But it's much more consistent in tone in terms of the villains.

1586
01:11:45.779 --> 01:11:49.020
And I like Kane, and like all of his henchmen, they all have some

1587
01:11:49.020 --> 01:11:50.880
sort of little story, all those cards, and you get that.

1588
01:11:50.939 --> 01:11:56.399
I like the autumn water mix of Mel and Ace.

1589
01:11:56.460 --> 01:12:01.140
And Brendan, you talked about the I spy stuff and all those

1590
01:12:01.140 --> 01:12:01.619
sequences.

1591
01:12:01.680 --> 01:12:03.119
I just chuckle through them. fantastic.

1592
01:12:03.180 --> 01:12:07.020
Um, Sylvester's generally good except when he doctor decides to

1593
01:12:07.020 --> 01:12:10.680
commit suicide and then climb all over um, glitz, which I just

1594
01:12:10.680 --> 01:12:12.720
roll my eyes going, please.

1595
01:12:12.779 --> 01:12:16.500
So for me, it wins out for the season because it's more consistent

1596
01:12:16.680 --> 01:12:21.359
2 other aspects that I've mentioned is the incidental score.

1597
01:12:21.420 --> 01:12:25.260
And I just think it's phenomenal in this and it knits this story

1598
01:12:25.260 --> 01:12:26.100
together, right?

1599
01:12:26.159 --> 01:12:26.939
It really does.

1600
01:12:27.000 --> 01:12:30.180
And the other thing is, is Tony Serby is several on glitz.

1601
01:12:30.239 --> 01:12:34.199
I used to dismiss him as glitz light, but he's just got a warmth

1602
01:12:34.199 --> 01:12:37.800
team and in every scene that he's in, I just watch him and he

1603
01:12:37.800 --> 01:12:38.760
brings it all together.

1604
01:12:38.819 --> 01:12:40.739
Sylvester is still trying to find where he's at.

1605
01:12:40.800 --> 01:12:42.300
Sophie's new at it.

1606
01:12:42.359 --> 01:12:44.640
Bonnie's dealing with, well, you know, the character that is no

1607
01:12:44.640 --> 01:12:45.000
character.

1608
01:12:45.600 --> 01:12:48.359
And there's just something about him in this.

1609
01:12:48.720 --> 01:12:54.060
So, in the end, no, I don't really like watching a lot of it.

1610
01:12:54.119 --> 01:12:56.159
Yes, I can watch it, right?

1611
01:12:56.220 --> 01:12:59.880
Thank God it's not Eric Saywood. thank goodness we don't have to

1612
01:12:59.880 --> 01:13:02.100
sit through 14 episodes for no resolution.

1613
01:13:02.159 --> 01:13:04.140
We get changes every 4 weeks.

1614
01:13:04.199 --> 01:13:06.180
I can see glimpses of Sylvester.

1615
01:13:06.239 --> 01:13:09.659
The fact that we don't have the past.

1616
01:13:10.319 --> 01:13:13.920
Jonathan Turner allows, Cardinal and the team.

1617
01:13:13.979 --> 01:13:15.840
They don't get it right.

1618
01:13:15.899 --> 01:13:18.600
Sometimes you miss the ball's eye, but you eventually will hit.

1619
01:13:19.079 --> 01:13:23.340
And it will hit for the next 2 years, and especially the next

1620
01:13:23.340 --> 01:13:23.760
story.

1621
01:13:23.819 --> 01:13:28.560
Sorry, I do apologise if I've offended anybody in my rant.

1622
01:13:28.619 --> 01:13:32.279
You know, Dr. Manarin is no longer my worst, least favourite Dr

1623
01:13:32.279 --> 01:13:32.760
Story of Time.

1624
01:13:32.819 --> 01:13:35.520
It probably is in the bottom 10 because of various things, but

1625
01:13:35.520 --> 01:13:37.380
there's characters in there that I enjoy.

1626
01:13:37.439 --> 01:13:41.579
I mean, I think that season 24, as we said, is a relief, and I

1627
01:13:41.579 --> 01:13:45.600
think script wise, it's just streets ahead of anything we've had

1628
01:13:45.600 --> 01:13:46.079
for years.

1629
01:13:46.140 --> 01:13:51.600
But the show at this time, it's only 14 episodes a year.

1630
01:13:51.659 --> 01:13:53.460
It's shot entirely on videotape.

1631
01:13:53.520 --> 01:13:56.340
It really does take on a children's television aesthetic.

1632
01:13:56.399 --> 01:14:00.119
And certainly, I've said this on the podcast before, that I was

1633
01:14:00.119 --> 01:14:03.779
horrified by the 1st episode of Time and the Rani when I 1st

1634
01:14:03.779 --> 01:14:07.680
watched it on broadcast, because in Australia, it was 5.30 in the

1635
01:14:07.680 --> 01:14:13.380
afternoon, remember, it just seemed like a children's show set on

1636
01:14:13.380 --> 01:14:16.140
a game show set, you know, and...

1637
01:14:16.140 --> 01:14:17.640
Yeah, and I agree.

1638
01:14:17.699 --> 01:14:21.659
And I thought it was horrific, and I thought, I can now see what

1639
01:14:21.659 --> 01:14:24.539
Monnie Langford is trying to do in all those sequences.

1640
01:14:24.539 --> 01:14:26.880
She's given the worst dialogue ever, and she's trying to inject

1641
01:14:26.880 --> 01:14:29.819
life and stuff into it with Icona.

1642
01:14:29.880 --> 01:14:33.239
And previously they had superseded her and Pex.

1643
01:14:33.300 --> 01:14:34.680
But now I can see what she's trying to do.

1644
01:14:34.739 --> 01:14:36.600
Yeah, no, I think he's very good.

1645
01:14:36.659 --> 01:14:37.800
Yeah, I think he is.

1646
01:14:37.920 --> 01:14:41.460
And so, you know, like I think it's production problems more than

1647
01:14:41.460 --> 01:14:44.819
anything else and it's teething issues.

1648
01:14:44.880 --> 01:14:49.380
But just there's so little cannibalism in that sense.

1649
01:14:49.500 --> 01:14:53.520
You know, and and there's...

1650
01:14:53.579 --> 01:14:55.079
There is crochet.

1651
01:14:55.140 --> 01:14:56.220
We're not looking backwards.

1652
01:14:56.279 --> 01:14:57.539
No, we're looking outwards.

1653
01:14:57.600 --> 01:14:58.800
Yeah, yeah.

1654
01:14:58.859 --> 01:14:59.640
There's a relief.

1655
01:14:59.880 --> 01:15:03.239
When you watch, you bring back the emotions you had at that time

1656
01:15:03.239 --> 01:15:05.039
as well, and I'm fighting those.

1657
01:15:05.100 --> 01:15:07.380
Yeah, yeah, smarting from Collins dismissal.

1658
01:15:07.500 --> 01:15:08.159
Yeah, yeah.

1659
01:15:08.220 --> 01:15:11.100
And so when you see a script like Paradise Towers and you know

1660
01:15:11.100 --> 01:15:11.579
what it could be.

1661
01:15:11.640 --> 01:15:12.300
Yeah.

1662
01:15:12.300 --> 01:15:16.140
I think another thing is, you know, we talked about, well, I

1663
01:15:16.140 --> 01:15:19.800
talked about with Bonnie being kind of a return to 1st principles

1664
01:15:19.800 --> 01:15:21.779
of, you know, what is it, what is a companion?

1665
01:15:21.840 --> 01:15:22.739
What is their function in the show?

1666
01:15:22.800 --> 01:15:28.800
A problem the show has had since Douglas Adams is it's trying to

1667
01:15:28.800 --> 01:15:31.619
appeal to children and it's trying to appeal to adolescents and

1668
01:15:31.619 --> 01:15:32.819
it's trying to appeal to adults.

1669
01:15:32.880 --> 01:15:35.939
And I think in the 80s it started to skew things more towards the

1670
01:15:35.939 --> 01:15:37.079
appealing to adults.

1671
01:15:37.140 --> 01:15:41.760
No, I think it's appealing towards to like teenage boys.

1672
01:15:42.300 --> 01:15:44.159
Yep, fair enough.

1673
01:15:44.220 --> 01:15:44.939
But that's the thing.

1674
01:15:45.000 --> 01:15:46.199
Until season 24.

1675
01:15:46.680 --> 01:15:49.560
It's been a few years since we've had something that appeals to

1676
01:15:49.560 --> 01:15:52.260
children 12 and under.

1677
01:15:52.319 --> 01:15:54.779
But I think it's also appealing to adults.

1678
01:15:54.840 --> 01:15:59.100
Like, I think that your parents wouldn't watch the Colin Baker era

1679
01:15:59.100 --> 01:16:03.180
because it's all space corridors and kind of unmotivated cruelty.

1680
01:16:03.239 --> 01:16:08.220
This, I think the, the, um, the Delta and the Bannerman is

1681
01:16:08.220 --> 01:16:10.439
precisely the sort of thing that you could watch with your mom.

1682
01:16:10.500 --> 01:16:11.699
Yeah, absolutely.

1683
01:16:11.760 --> 01:16:14.159
But I think what they do with Time and the Rani is.

1684
01:16:14.220 --> 01:16:17.699
Andrew Cartmel kind of writes time in the Rani off, he's like, look

1685
01:16:17.699 --> 01:16:19.140
I can't really put my stamp on this.

1686
01:16:19.199 --> 01:16:20.699
You know, we're too deep into scripting it.

1687
01:16:20.819 --> 01:16:23.760
So time and the Rani is squarely aimed at children.

1688
01:16:24.180 --> 01:16:25.920
Being frank.

1689
01:16:25.979 --> 01:16:27.899
And I watched it when I was seven.

1690
01:16:27.960 --> 01:16:28.560
It was perfect.

1691
01:16:29.579 --> 01:16:31.380
Very quickly.

1692
01:16:31.439 --> 01:16:33.420
We start getting into Doctor Who where, right?

1693
01:16:33.479 --> 01:16:36.659
something for the kids and there's something for the teenagers and

1694
01:16:36.659 --> 01:16:38.579
there's something for mum and dad just like it was with Tom

1695
01:16:38.579 --> 01:16:39.060
Baker.

1696
01:16:39.119 --> 01:16:41.460
And I think by Delta they do hit that.

1697
01:16:41.520 --> 01:16:45.300
Well, I think one of the ways that we see the show inching towards

1698
01:16:45.300 --> 01:16:49.439
the new series is that the new series becomes family viewing again

1699
01:16:49.439 --> 01:16:56.159
and it's not just the sort of thing that bookish teenagers want to

1700
01:16:56.159 --> 01:16:56.340
watch.

1701
01:16:56.399 --> 01:17:00.899
And point of controversy that I often have with dear JR Southall

1702
01:17:00.899 --> 01:17:04.920
over at Blue Box, is I do wonder in the last 2 seasons of Peter

1703
01:17:04.920 --> 01:17:07.920
Capaldi, how much is in there for children?

1704
01:17:07.979 --> 01:17:10.800
You know, it's, the general viewer.

1705
01:17:11.279 --> 01:17:15.119
It's going to be a big challenge for the new showrunner

1706
01:17:15.119 --> 01:17:20.159
considering his comments on record, back in 1986 regarding Peter

1707
01:17:20.159 --> 01:17:21.600
Jane Baker on the state of the show.

1708
01:17:21.779 --> 01:17:24.659
Because he doesn't want that to come around and bite him in the

1709
01:17:24.659 --> 01:17:24.899
bum.

1710
01:17:24.960 --> 01:17:28.680
Yeah, well, as I said, you know, Chris Gibble takes the advice.

1711
01:17:28.739 --> 01:17:31.319
If you don't like it, you drive very seriously.

1712
01:17:33.359 --> 01:17:36.600
Okay, so top 3 stories.

1713
01:17:36.659 --> 01:17:38.819
Mind changes each week.

1714
01:17:39.060 --> 01:17:42.359
I would have to put happiness patrol up there.

1715
01:17:42.420 --> 01:17:45.359
I would have to put Greater Show in the Galaxy up there.

1716
01:17:45.420 --> 01:17:47.279
I would.

1717
01:17:47.819 --> 01:17:52.920
Uh, I'm kind of inclined to put ghost line up there, but that

1718
01:17:52.920 --> 01:17:56.279
obviously leaves some really incredible stories that I haven't

1719
01:17:56.279 --> 01:18:01.380
even mentioned, you know, there's more than 3 stone cold classics

1720
01:18:01.380 --> 01:18:01.680
here.

1721
01:18:02.220 --> 01:18:04.380
And ask me next week and it'll be different.

1722
01:18:04.439 --> 01:18:07.319
Are they the best ones or the ones I enjoy the most?

1723
01:18:07.380 --> 01:18:08.460
No, the 2nd one.

1724
01:18:08.520 --> 01:18:11.939
I think the ones that I had the most fun with, one from each

1725
01:18:11.939 --> 01:18:14.760
season, I'll be I'll partition it that way.

1726
01:18:14.819 --> 01:18:18.420
The ones that I had the most fun with at the time and still do.

1727
01:18:18.600 --> 01:18:21.899
Delta and the Bannerman, Silver Nemesis.

1728
01:18:22.260 --> 01:18:24.720
I just love it. so much fun.

1729
01:18:24.779 --> 01:18:27.359
I laugh all the way. really do.

1730
01:18:27.420 --> 01:18:32.579
I would stick it on my Christmas tree in whatever metaphor you

1731
01:18:32.579 --> 01:18:33.300
want.

1732
01:18:33.359 --> 01:18:35.760
I really do. just adore it.

1733
01:18:35.819 --> 01:18:39.899
I even find Battlefield a lot of fun to watch, but I think Fenwick

1734
01:18:39.899 --> 01:18:42.479
just because it's set in World War 2 and everything about it is

1735
01:18:42.479 --> 01:18:43.319
beautifully made.

1736
01:18:43.380 --> 01:18:47.340
But if you're going to say, what's the most fun for me of the 3rd

1737
01:18:47.340 --> 01:18:47.579
season?

1738
01:18:47.640 --> 01:18:52.619
Um, yeah, it's probably bad. is incredibly fun.

1739
01:18:52.739 --> 01:18:57.300
My personal top three, and it's not necessarily stories, I give 10

1740
01:18:57.300 --> 01:18:59.220
out of 10 two, but actually, I'm going to do what Richard did

1741
01:18:59.220 --> 01:19:00.119
which is one from each season.

1742
01:19:00.180 --> 01:19:05.760
So, Ghostlight, which I just think is sublime, and even with the

1743
01:19:05.760 --> 01:19:09.720
stuff cut out, but still works, unlike Fenrick, uh, greater show

1744
01:19:09.720 --> 01:19:10.260
in the gallery.

1745
01:19:10.319 --> 01:19:11.819
No, sorry, sorry, happiness patrol.

1746
01:19:11.880 --> 01:19:18.060
Happiness patrol for the 2nd season. so angry and sad and +and

1747
01:19:18.060 --> 01:19:19.800
angry.

1748
01:19:19.859 --> 01:19:22.859
Again, and...

1749
01:19:22.920 --> 01:19:28.199
Look, for the 1st season, this one is entirely subjective, it's

1750
01:19:28.199 --> 01:19:29.460
time in the Rani.

1751
01:19:29.520 --> 01:19:30.000
Yay.

1752
01:19:30.000 --> 01:19:32.939
It's by no means the best story of that season.

1753
01:19:33.060 --> 01:19:34.859
You're a little person.

1754
01:19:34.859 --> 01:19:35.520
I was a little person.

1755
01:19:35.579 --> 01:19:36.600
It's still not that big.

1756
01:19:36.600 --> 01:19:41.939
And it's the, it's when I pressed record for the 1st time.

1757
01:19:42.060 --> 01:19:43.739
Oh, that's why.

1758
01:19:43.800 --> 01:19:44.880
That's the thing.

1759
01:19:44.939 --> 01:19:48.600
I have memory of being like 10 centimetres away from the screen

1760
01:19:48.600 --> 01:19:53.279
and pressing the button and just sitting there while Mel got

1761
01:19:53.279 --> 01:19:55.680
diffused from the bubble until my mum came into the room and told

1762
01:19:55.680 --> 01:19:57.119
me to get back from the television.

1763
01:19:57.239 --> 01:20:00.720
Like, just because that cliffhanger, I'm like, I need to know.

1764
01:20:00.779 --> 01:20:01.920
I've been at school all day.

1765
01:20:01.979 --> 01:20:02.699
What's happened?

1766
01:20:02.760 --> 01:20:05.579
Yeah, so those are my three.

1767
01:20:05.760 --> 01:20:07.920
Time and the Rani.

1768
01:20:08.760 --> 01:20:11.399
So time in the Rani for the nostalgia, happiness patrol for the

1769
01:20:11.399 --> 01:20:13.500
politics and ghostlight fruits script.

1770
01:20:13.560 --> 01:20:18.239
All right, my top 4 are in this order, coming forward.

1771
01:20:18.720 --> 01:20:22.199
Coming 3rd ghost light, coming 2nd remembrance of the Daleks and

1772
01:20:22.199 --> 01:20:23.340
1st Happiness Patrol.

1773
01:20:23.399 --> 01:20:25.920
They are sublime, and I can barely fault.

1774
01:20:25.979 --> 01:20:27.600
Any of them.

1775
01:20:27.600 --> 01:20:30.779
Yeah, it's amazing that that's the 1st time.

1776
01:20:30.779 --> 01:20:33.779
Anyone's side of remembrance because that's the one we always go

1777
01:20:33.779 --> 01:20:34.199
back and watch.

1778
01:20:34.260 --> 01:20:35.340
Yeah.

1779
01:20:35.340 --> 01:20:35.880
Yeah.

1780
01:20:35.939 --> 01:20:37.619
Yeah, I think with me with remembrance.

1781
01:20:37.680 --> 01:20:38.760
It's kind of like, that's a given.

1782
01:20:38.819 --> 01:20:40.140
Yeah, it's actually too easy.

1783
01:20:40.260 --> 01:20:41.460
Okay.

1784
01:20:41.520 --> 01:20:42.420
Bottom three.

1785
01:20:42.479 --> 01:20:43.140
Oh, okay.

1786
01:20:43.199 --> 01:20:46.739
Planet of the bottoms, curse of the fatal bottoms.

1787
01:20:46.800 --> 01:20:48.000
They sound great.

1788
01:20:48.119 --> 01:20:49.920
Yeah, no, it's everyone we know.

1789
01:20:49.920 --> 01:20:51.779
Don't have to give bottom 3 if you don't think there is.

1790
01:20:51.840 --> 01:20:53.939
No, I'm going to do one from each season again.

1791
01:20:54.000 --> 01:20:57.119
So I'm going to say Dragonfire, not because it's actually bad, but

1792
01:20:57.119 --> 01:21:02.699
just because I think that evenness of tone that it has compared to

1793
01:21:02.699 --> 01:21:06.060
everything else makes it less interesting. interesting in itself.

1794
01:21:06.119 --> 01:21:09.779
Second season, it's silver nemesis, which I've said before.

1795
01:21:09.840 --> 01:21:11.520
Again, I don't think it's bad.

1796
01:21:11.579 --> 01:21:14.640
It still gets a 6 out of 10 from me, but just it's surrounded by

1797
01:21:14.640 --> 01:21:15.420
so much good stuff.

1798
01:21:15.479 --> 01:21:18.060
God, the last season this is hard.

1799
01:21:18.180 --> 01:21:21.720
Look, I can't pick, but it's between Battlefield for poor

1800
01:21:21.720 --> 01:21:23.880
execution and Fenrick for poor editing.

1801
01:21:23.939 --> 01:21:26.939
I think, yeah, it probably goes to Battlefield because even the

1802
01:21:26.939 --> 01:21:30.300
special edition of Battlefield doesn't get around the Poor

1803
01:21:30.300 --> 01:21:33.899
Direction, whereas the special edition of Fenrick solves the

1804
01:21:33.899 --> 01:21:34.739
problems with the editing.

1805
01:21:34.800 --> 01:21:39.899
So, yeah, Dragonfire, Silver Nemesis, Battlefield.

1806
01:21:39.960 --> 01:21:45.420
I think my bottom 3 are probably coincident with Richard's top

1807
01:21:45.420 --> 01:21:46.079
three.

1808
01:21:46.920 --> 01:21:51.960
I would have to say that I probably actually would have to agree

1809
01:21:51.960 --> 01:21:56.220
with Brendan, in that I think probably Dragonfire is the worst of

1810
01:21:56.220 --> 01:22:00.359
the era, just because it's in essential, not because it's poorly

1811
01:22:00.359 --> 01:22:01.979
made or offensive in any way.

1812
01:22:02.039 --> 01:22:05.100
But just that it is kind of forgettable.

1813
01:22:05.159 --> 01:22:11.939
And then I think Silver Nemesis is a mess and not necessary in a

1814
01:22:11.939 --> 01:22:14.579
season that has remembrance of the daleks.

1815
01:22:14.640 --> 01:22:20.819
And then battlefield is so spoiled by the direction and the music

1816
01:22:20.819 --> 01:22:25.380
as Todd said last week that it's my least favourite of that

1817
01:22:25.380 --> 01:22:26.039
season.

1818
01:22:26.100 --> 01:22:28.140
But they actually...

1819
01:22:28.859 --> 01:22:35.579
Like Bo Silver Nemesis and Battlefield are enjoyable to watch.

1820
01:22:35.640 --> 01:22:39.899
And I think if you have an era, yeah, if you have an era where

1821
01:22:39.899 --> 01:22:42.000
there, your turkeys.

1822
01:22:42.060 --> 01:22:42.960
Do you know what I mean?

1823
01:22:43.020 --> 01:22:45.359
then you're doing pretty well, I think.

1824
01:22:45.420 --> 01:22:46.140
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1825
01:22:46.199 --> 01:22:47.399
Like, I agree with you.

1826
01:22:47.460 --> 01:22:50.340
I enjoy battlefield, but it has a lot of faults.

1827
01:22:50.399 --> 01:22:51.180
Yeah, yeah.

1828
01:22:51.180 --> 01:22:52.500
But I'm not going to put into my bottom three.

1829
01:22:52.560 --> 01:22:57.060
Nemesis, I just can't stand any sequence without fan of Walker and

1830
01:22:57.060 --> 01:22:57.779
the skinheads.

1831
01:22:57.779 --> 01:23:00.359
I mean, that just, what's his name?

1832
01:23:00.420 --> 01:23:03.119
You are the giants and weird.

1833
01:23:03.180 --> 01:23:06.000
We are the Superman, whatever, he's just appalling.

1834
01:23:06.060 --> 01:23:06.600
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1835
01:23:06.600 --> 01:23:08.220
Like, you can literally cut...

1836
01:23:08.279 --> 01:23:11.760
I'd like somebody out there to actually tell me in terms if you

1837
01:23:11.760 --> 01:23:15.479
actually added up the timing for Fiona Walker's on-screen

1838
01:23:15.479 --> 01:23:16.079
appearance.

1839
01:23:16.140 --> 01:23:19.260
Does that give us one full enjoyable episode to see what it is?

1840
01:23:19.380 --> 01:23:21.000
and 2 of Turkey?

1841
01:23:21.060 --> 01:23:23.880
It's either that or greater show, which I always find a

1842
01:23:23.880 --> 01:23:25.920
disappointment and I really don't like a lot of episode four.

1843
01:23:25.979 --> 01:23:31.920
So my bottom 3 are nemesis, time in the Rani and Paradise Towers

1844
01:23:31.920 --> 01:23:32.520
in that order.

1845
01:23:32.579 --> 01:23:33.239
Okay?

1846
01:23:33.300 --> 01:23:35.819
Dalton Madam didn't get there, people. get there.

1847
01:23:35.880 --> 01:23:36.420
Well done.

1848
01:23:36.479 --> 01:23:38.100
If you have to.

1849
01:23:38.159 --> 01:23:39.720
You don't have to.

1850
01:23:39.779 --> 01:23:41.399
You can say, you can say you don't want to.

1851
01:23:41.460 --> 01:23:44.100
Look, again, it comes down to narrative enjoyment and plotting and

1852
01:23:44.100 --> 01:23:46.979
production, and I do actually think the performers in it and

1853
01:23:46.979 --> 01:23:49.619
whether that's the directors or whatever, but yeah, I have to do.

1854
01:23:49.739 --> 01:23:53.819
I do have to mention Paradise Towers is clunky and difficult to

1855
01:23:53.819 --> 01:23:56.579
watch, even though it's so there's so many good things in it.

1856
01:23:56.640 --> 01:24:01.439
Um, I agree, Dragonfire, it still has moments that I laugh and

1857
01:24:01.439 --> 01:24:03.960
enjoy, but it is clunky again and difficult to watch, perform.

1858
01:24:04.020 --> 01:24:08.640
It's mostly down to performances, not meeting the requirements and

1859
01:24:08.640 --> 01:24:10.439
they're being big gaps.

1860
01:24:10.500 --> 01:24:12.119
Big black holes to fall into.

1861
01:24:12.180 --> 01:24:15.060
And the other one is greatest show, simply because I don't think

1862
01:24:15.060 --> 01:24:17.939
the performances are really consistent or even working within

1863
01:24:17.939 --> 01:24:20.579
their own work and there's a lot of padding.

1864
01:24:20.640 --> 01:24:22.140
I agree with you, Richard.

1865
01:24:22.199 --> 01:24:22.979
A lot of padding.

1866
01:24:23.039 --> 01:24:23.579
It looks so good.

1867
01:24:23.640 --> 01:24:25.920
The outside stuff. it does.

1868
01:24:25.979 --> 01:24:28.079
It would have worked really well as a three-parter.

1869
01:24:28.140 --> 01:24:29.520
You know what I would have loved?

1870
01:24:29.579 --> 01:24:32.760
I would have loved an episode where Happiness Patrol went over by

1871
01:24:32.760 --> 01:24:34.140
10 minutes and then Greatest Show started.

1872
01:24:34.199 --> 01:24:37.260
Like just to just to mess with all the fans.

1873
01:24:37.260 --> 01:24:40.680
Like, because I think it later showed being condensed a little bit

1874
01:24:40.680 --> 01:24:43.800
and having this a bit more wonderfulness.

1875
01:24:43.859 --> 01:24:46.199
It just would have been, you know, but that comes back to script

1876
01:24:46.199 --> 01:24:48.060
editing or not script editing.

1877
01:24:48.119 --> 01:24:49.560
We do have to wrap things up.

1878
01:24:49.619 --> 01:24:52.439
So looking forward to the next year, huh?

1879
01:24:52.500 --> 01:24:54.180
which is the Paul Magannia, right?

1880
01:24:54.479 --> 01:24:59.159
I remember next year it was like just years and years of waiting

1881
01:24:59.159 --> 01:25:00.420
for Doctor Who to come back.

1882
01:25:00.479 --> 01:25:03.539
Yeah, well, we're not doing the new adventures.

1883
01:25:03.539 --> 01:25:08.520
But are there any expectations going into the town?

1884
01:25:08.579 --> 01:25:11.880
Well, I've heard so much coming up with it, I can't wait to see

1885
01:25:11.880 --> 01:25:19.920
you know, Seaview, SV, DSS 19, you know, in a sense, 90210

1886
01:25:19.920 --> 01:25:20.520
whatever it's going to be.

1887
01:25:20.579 --> 01:25:23.460
The next era was watching Star Trek, the Next Generation.

1888
01:25:23.579 --> 01:25:24.720
It was, it actually was.

1889
01:25:25.079 --> 01:25:27.899
I'm really looking forward to the spider.

1890
01:25:27.960 --> 01:25:29.760
Alex, that leaked footage looks amazing.

1891
01:25:29.819 --> 01:25:31.439
Is there footage?

1892
01:25:31.500 --> 01:25:32.159
I saw the drawings.

1893
01:25:33.180 --> 01:25:37.979
There's like a there's like a 52nd VFX reel that's very, very

1894
01:25:37.979 --> 01:25:38.340
grainy.

1895
01:25:38.460 --> 01:25:39.180
Urah.

1896
01:25:39.239 --> 01:25:42.479
I'm glad that they're making Barusa, the doctor's father.

1897
01:25:42.539 --> 01:25:43.619
Yes, that can only go well.

1898
01:25:43.680 --> 01:25:47.760
I really like the fact that in the new series, the Doctor Who, the

1899
01:25:47.760 --> 01:25:50.760
tochlophane, they bring back the chocolate fane from the telemedia

1900
01:25:50.760 --> 01:25:52.140
because the chocolate fane are at the beginning of the

1901
01:25:52.140 --> 01:25:52.800
television.

1902
01:25:53.340 --> 01:25:55.380
Don't you hear their voices?

1903
01:25:56.460 --> 01:26:01.260
And, you know, I think, yeah, they've got to redesign the TARDIS

1904
01:26:01.260 --> 01:26:03.960
and a pair of wrapping lips on the console with the voice of

1905
01:26:03.960 --> 01:26:05.399
Nicholas Courtney is the way to go.

1906
01:26:05.460 --> 01:26:10.439
All of these listeners are things that were actually suggested.

1907
01:26:10.800 --> 01:26:12.779
That's just rude.

1908
01:26:12.840 --> 01:26:14.340
But you know what?

1909
01:26:14.399 --> 01:26:17.279
We're a few years away from the 30th anniversary.

1910
01:26:17.340 --> 01:26:20.699
So I'm sure we'll get some really great anniversary special that

1911
01:26:20.699 --> 01:26:23.100
we can talk about during the telly movie commentary.

1912
01:26:23.159 --> 01:26:24.840
God, we're not watching that, are we?

1913
01:26:24.899 --> 01:26:25.560
No, no, no.

1914
01:26:25.859 --> 01:26:26.819
I'm not doing that to you.

1915
01:26:26.880 --> 01:26:28.140
Although...

1916
01:26:28.140 --> 01:26:31.199
If I didn't know what was coming.

1917
01:26:31.260 --> 01:26:33.840
What I would want is just...

1918
01:26:33.840 --> 01:26:36.899
I'd want more of the same.

1919
01:26:36.960 --> 01:26:39.899
And that's the 1st time I've said this when you've asked that

1920
01:26:39.899 --> 01:26:40.199
question.

1921
01:26:40.260 --> 01:26:44.579
You know, because kind of each year of Doctor Who, even if you

1922
01:26:44.579 --> 01:26:48.420
haven't been sick of it by the end, which generally you're not, but

1923
01:26:48.420 --> 01:26:50.939
it's kind of like, okay, I'm ready for something new now.

1924
01:26:51.000 --> 01:26:53.579
You have used your safety word, at least on one account.

1925
01:26:53.640 --> 01:26:57.239
We're moving into the genocide. moving in the right direction.

1926
01:26:57.359 --> 01:26:58.140
Exactly.

1927
01:26:58.199 --> 01:27:01.199
It's like, I just want more of this, even if it's with a new cast

1928
01:27:01.199 --> 01:27:02.640
even if it comes back in a few years.

1929
01:27:02.699 --> 01:27:08.039
I want a doctor who is mysterious and a bit sad and I want a

1930
01:27:08.039 --> 01:27:13.500
companion who is a driving force in the story and has her own

1931
01:27:13.500 --> 01:27:16.199
wants and ambitions and desires.

1932
01:27:16.260 --> 01:27:19.800
A love of opera and an annoying boyfriend called Brian.

1933
01:27:19.859 --> 01:27:20.939
And a trumpet.

1934
01:27:21.000 --> 01:27:21.659
Yes.

1935
01:27:21.720 --> 01:27:24.000
And a John Lennon haircut.

1936
01:27:25.319 --> 01:27:28.199
But yeah, that's my other career.

1937
01:27:28.319 --> 01:27:30.479
That's what I want next doctor to have a wig.

1938
01:27:32.100 --> 01:27:34.739
Billy's wig was fantastic.

1939
01:27:34.800 --> 01:27:37.020
We haven't had a doctor with a wig for a long time.

1940
01:27:37.020 --> 01:27:41.819
And I think a big old unconvincing wig would really sell the next

1941
01:27:41.819 --> 01:27:42.479
doctor for me.

1942
01:27:42.539 --> 01:27:43.439
BBC?

1943
01:27:43.500 --> 01:27:45.239
I like some sort of clock.

1944
01:27:45.300 --> 01:27:47.460
What kind of clock can we have?

1945
01:27:47.520 --> 01:27:49.500
Oh, every different...

1946
01:27:49.560 --> 01:27:50.220
An atomic clock?

1947
01:27:50.279 --> 01:27:52.920
The most accurate atomic clock in the world.

1948
01:27:53.220 --> 01:27:57.539
Maybe some sort of beard that I think it has to be a ginger

1949
01:27:57.539 --> 01:27:58.079
beard.

1950
01:27:58.140 --> 01:27:59.520
Yes.

1951
01:27:59.640 --> 01:28:01.739
Something called Gareth.

1952
01:28:19.800 --> 01:28:23.640
Well, listener, that's all the time we have for Alsevist McCoy

1953
01:28:23.640 --> 01:28:27.180
retrospective, but we'll be back next week, watching the Bloody

1954
01:28:27.180 --> 01:28:27.960
Telly movie.

1955
01:28:28.020 --> 01:28:30.300
I can't tell you how exciting it was 21 years ago.

1956
01:28:30.359 --> 01:28:31.619
Does it hold up?

1957
01:28:31.680 --> 01:28:33.000
Come back and find out.

1958
01:28:33.060 --> 01:28:34.260
Spoiler alert?

1959
01:28:34.380 --> 01:28:34.800
No.

1960
01:28:38.399 --> 01:28:42.539
This is, I might or might not be back depending on, if I'm locked

1961
01:28:42.539 --> 01:28:44.399
being locked in a cupboard after this.

1962
01:28:46.859 --> 01:28:49.739
Well, we're just a bit worried about whole genocidal thing, Tot.

1963
01:28:49.800 --> 01:28:52.500
You can find us online at flightthroughentirety.sexy, flight

1964
01:28:52.500 --> 01:28:55.380
through entirety on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at FTE podcast

1965
01:28:55.380 --> 01:28:55.979
on Twitter.

1966
01:28:56.039 --> 01:28:58.199
Do leave us a review over on Bondfinger.

1967
01:28:58.260 --> 01:29:02.100
That is bondfinger.com, bondfinger on Facebook and Apple Podcasts

1968
01:29:02.100 --> 01:29:04.500
and at bondfingercast on Twitter.

1969
01:29:04.560 --> 01:29:08.220
Gentlemen, nominations for your Sylvester McCoy commentaries

1970
01:29:08.220 --> 01:29:08.399
please.

1971
01:29:08.460 --> 01:29:10.260
I'm going to nominate time in the Rani.

1972
01:29:10.319 --> 01:29:12.539
Golly, Silver Nemesis, obviously.

1973
01:29:13.020 --> 01:29:14.819
That's awesome.

1974
01:29:15.239 --> 01:29:18.300
I'm going to nominate the Happiness Patrol.

1975
01:29:18.539 --> 01:29:22.439
God, somebody's done something of quality because I'm going to

1976
01:29:22.439 --> 01:29:24.539
nominate battle fool.

1977
01:29:24.600 --> 01:29:27.840
So that is the Happiness Patrol.

1978
01:29:27.899 --> 01:29:31.020
Battlefield, Silver Nemesis, and Time and the Rani.

1979
01:29:31.079 --> 01:29:32.579
So do vote on that on our website.

1980
01:29:32.640 --> 01:29:36.300
But until next week, may nobody play the spoons on your cleavage.

1981
01:29:36.359 --> 01:29:37.199
Thank you, Sylvester.

1982
01:29:37.260 --> 01:29:37.920
Thank you, Sophie.

1983
01:29:37.979 --> 01:29:41.279
Thank you, Bonnie, Andrew, and JNT, and thank you all for

1984
01:29:41.279 --> 01:29:42.119
listening and good night.

1985
01:29:42.180 --> 01:29:43.199
Good night.

1986
01:29:43.260 --> 01:29:43.979
See you soon.

1987
01:29:44.039 --> 01:29:44.520
Thank you.

1988
01:30:01.020 --> 01:30:04.800
That was Flight Through Entirety with Todd Bealby, Nathan

1989
01:30:04.800 --> 01:30:07.020
Bottomley, Brendan Jones and Richard Stone.

1990
01:30:07.079 --> 01:30:09.779
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, logo designed by Anthony

1991
01:30:09.779 --> 01:30:10.439
Wells.

1992
01:30:10.500 --> 01:30:14.699
This episode, Advocate for Genocide, was recorded on October the

1993
01:30:14.699 --> 01:30:15.659
7th, 2017.

1994
01:30:15.899 --> 01:30:18.899
The next episode will be released on November 26th.

1995
01:30:22.319 --> 01:30:26.340
We wish to dedicate this episode to the memories of Dudley Simpson

1996
01:30:26.340 --> 01:30:26.880
Patty Russell.

1997
01:30:26.939 --> 01:30:30.000
Why not pull out your copy of Pyramids of Mars, wrap yourself up

1998
01:30:30.000 --> 01:30:32.100
in bandages, and have a go on the Marimba.

1999
01:30:36.479 --> 01:30:39.779
The Sylvester McCoy retrospective...

2000
01:30:39.840 --> 01:30:43.140
Sorry, retrospective.

2001
01:30:43.199 --> 01:30:45.779
Thank you, I can't do that. 7th of October.

2002
01:30:46.079 --> 01:30:47.579
Really?