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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:06:17

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast who suddenly realised that we're going along with Patrick Troughton's advice in 3 years is a very good stint.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan I'm Todd.

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I'm Sidney Newman's reboot as a woman.

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So this is...

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Brian Blesser, because I'm all known.

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We'll read at the moment.

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So black as a woman.

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Oh, sorry.

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We're taking that.

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Wait, the tradesman's entrance.

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Sorry, Brendan.

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So today's episode is a special retrospective on the classic series and also on our time that we've spent together over the last 3 years.

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And while this is something we've been discussing for months, I would also like to give a special shout out to friend of the podcast, Bob Gilby, who, when I saw him to record the marriage equality video we did together, actually said to me, you know what, it'd be great?

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A retrospective where you look at the whole history of Doctor Who and I could come along and host it.

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Well, he's living in America now.

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We waited till he left.

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And but I did also say to him, Bob, that is fantastic idea.

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But I think if we had you on as a special guest before we had James on.

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He'd murdered.

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I think that would be rather bad form.

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And he said, oh, that's a good idea.

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But if you want me to host and it's like, I certainly don't object to that.

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But so thank you, thank you, Bob, for suggesting it.

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And when I last spoke to him a few days ago.

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He settling very nicely into his new home with his lovely wife and child.

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James just here.

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He was settling nicely into that wheelchair with the gaffer tape over his mouth.

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Silence is golden, but gaffer tape is silver.

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Isn't that right, James?

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That's right.

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Because he's, of course, our pertly of the moment.

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Okay, so I'm going to throw to Todd, who is the compare for this episode, as he has been for all of our retrospectives, as he started on the podcast before coming in on the Pertwee era.

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Of course, covering the whole Colin Baker era.

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And thing, I think, Collins greatest champion.

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Todd, over to you.

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Oh, thank you for those kind words.

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It's been great to be here for such a long time, perhaps not quite at the beginning, but you know, it's yeah, wonderful.

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All right.

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So it's the whole damn thing.

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It's the whole damn thing.

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So we've got a lot to cover.

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Settle back and relax.

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And we've just finished the Megani, right?

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Doctor Who?

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Rather short.

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Oh, we're still being hiatus, aren't we?

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I'm leaving.

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Now that you've seen the Bagani, right?

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What do you take away from the McGann era?

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Don't do it again.

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What's the Magane era, though?

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Is it is it the audios as well?

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We know it's, we know it's canon because they're name checked.

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Yeah, there's no such thing as cannon.

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It isn't Star Wars.

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It's not a Star Wars podcast.

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One of the things that we said about Piers Brosnan is that he appears to have been grown in a lab in order to play James Bond.

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There's a sentence in which Paul McGann is kind of like everyone sort of half remembered ideas of what the doctor had been like.

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And he certainly brings a lot of charm to the role, but there's something a bit generic about him, I think.

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Yeah, which doesn't get redressed until he appears in the audios.

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Well, couldn't be in that thing.

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He's hardly on screen for it anyway.

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And he sort of said in interviews that, well, 1st of all, the movie was such a whirlwind. that, you know, there wasn't much time to think about character, but it said, you know, 3 years later, by the time he came around to the audios, 4 years later, I think I should say, he sort of thought a bit more about the character and got to play it, more how he wanted, and the way he describes it is.

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He doesn't quite see them as the same character.

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He sees his audio doctor as he puts it, the madcamp cousin of the TV version.

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Good description.

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Have you listened to all of them?

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I haven't listened to all of the Dark Eyes, Doom Coalition, and now time war.

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I have, but not the new time will start.

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So I've listened to pretty much all of them again.

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Yeah, it really, as his character goes wrong, shows his strength and versatility as an actor.

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And I think I think it's kosher to talk at least about the early ones in terms of before the new series comes back because when Big Finish managed to get him, it was seen as a great coup, they could continue the series.

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It was the current doctor for 6 years, almost 5 years.

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And what was so amazing about those 1st 2 years he did with India Fisher was, you know, this was the closest to an official continuation of Doctor Who that we were going to get, and it does so much between the doctor and companion and with their relationship that the new series would emulate. significantly nod to. and we're not just talking about stories like Dalek or times of midnight, which did almost make it to screen one way or another.

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But I agree with you.

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Like, I mean, I really love the India Fisher.

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I mean, there's varying quality, but I love their relationship, and for me, that's what I've listened to, and then I sort of towards the end, I felt they were too variable, and then I didn't go on.

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Yeah.

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I think what becomes the problem after those 1st 2 years is kind of the problem that was starting to creep in later on in the new series with Billy Piper in that where does the character go after that 1st year?

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Where does, and spoiler alert, if you haven't heard the earlier Charlie Pollard audios, it's been 15 years.

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But spoiler alert, where do you go after she confesses her love for the doctor and he says it back?

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And the weird, the weird thing is, because of the kisses in the telly movie, the word romantic was constantly used to describe the 8th doctor and the romantic poets.

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And the romantic poet.

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Yeah, in the BBC novels, I believe, it's kind of like what they do in the new series.

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He snogs all his companions.

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Like he kisses Fitz Kryna.

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He kisses Sam, like Sam falls in love with him and that sort of thing.

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And, you know, he just runs around kissing people.

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It's kind of a defining part of his character.

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And that kind of works because the novels, I feel like the novels are more of a niche product than the audios simply because...

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When you're consuming a television show, It takes less effort than consuming an audio and when you're consuming an audio, it takes less effort than reading a book in terms of your imagination.

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So audio is kind of feel more real to me in that sense.

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It's due to me, actually, because I have a whole, there's a whole visual thing you put into it and you describe your own voices.

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It's interesting because I am with Brendan that in terms of the audio, they're much closer, whereas I find with the books as they go along, I find it much harder to visualise characters you've been introduced to, I haven't seen.

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Yeah, they get untidy too. book series.

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But what's wrong?

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Well, I kind of don't like either of them.

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You're listening to like through entirety.

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The reason I think is that they're no longer a shared experience, that what we've been doing over the last 3.5 years is getting together and sharing our experience of Doctor Who.

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Sometimes we've watched it together, you know, particularly in the Sylvester McCoy era.

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But you can't listen to an audio with someone and you can't read a book with someone.

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And there's so much.

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I mean, if I was to say, I did listen to the early Charlie ones, but if I was to say, all right, I want to experience the Magan era, I just wouldn't have time.

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How at this stage, now that big finish has been putting out so much stuff, there is so much stuff that there's no way that my experience of the Magan era can be the same as anyone else's.

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And so, and that sort of social aspect, you know, that shared set of references that we have and that we revel in, you know, that's not possible with audio and books, I think.

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That's an excellent point because, of course, when I was a kid, no one at school watched Doctor Who.

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So my shared experience was when I started coming to Sydney Doctor Who Science Fiction Fan Club meetings and met all of you lot. and James and Neil and Brian and Simon and Stephen, all these people who are still a part of my life.

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And yeah.

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Yeah, I had never really thought of the books and the audio is not being a shared experience in the same way.

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And I suppose that's why we haven't.

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We haven't so much covered them.

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We, of course, did the missing season 23, but that is a shared fan experience because for years, you know, people poring over fanzines, like what was yellow fever and how to cure it?

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What was Mission to Magnus?

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That became a fan experience?

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Whereas even when Big Finish 1st started bringing out their audios, they were very vocal fans saying, no, no, no, Doctor Who is only a TV show to me, which is a perfectly valid point of view, but it means from the beginning.

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They were a niche experience.

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They're also a niche fan group.

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I'm going to be quite age centric now because for us, and I think that does include Nathan and Todd, I thought.

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I might just teensiestly be the eldest in the room right now.

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But Doctor Who was always a shared experience between television and books.

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The only way we could see, we're pre-VHS culture.

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Target.

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Terrence Sticks was our cardinal, our matrix monitor, that dodgy bloke with the Dutch accent.

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Yeah, that's right.

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I mean, we collected the target novelisations because you could not collect DVDs or videos and you'd go to school and you talk about that with your friends, like what ones have I got, that sort of thing.

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You'd watch the repeats.

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That was our experience.

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So I think, Nathan, you're quite right.

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That expansion.

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It's a different experience with the megans.

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And so perhaps if we just narrow it down to what we see visually on the screen, which is the night of the doctor and the TV movie, what would you, what advice would you give to you who fans coming in to watch this?

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Right?

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So if they were just watching the TV versions.

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Watching the TV movie, for example, like, you know.

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I think, I think it's a historical artefact, you know, really rather than something that you would, that you would enjoy watching, um, rather than something. time.

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It's almost your time. yeah.

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It's an evolutionary...

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Death track, isn't it?

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Say if you're like a new series fan, you've only watched the new series and you want to go back and you've decided to watch this.

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What sort of mindset would you be saying to them to sit down with it?

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Like, they're not going to be expecting the same thing from you as new who?

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There has to be some sort of like, after 10 seasons of New Who, we've now had pretty much all of the original mythology back, and that's the thing that seems to be a real priority in the script to the telly movie.

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And so it would be less alienating, I think, than it would have been on 1st broadcast.

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And, you know, look, friend of the podcast, Simon said that there was a very definite through line from survival to the TV movie to Rose, that you can actually see some progression.

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Oh, hang on, including the TV movie.

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I would say survival to rose.

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Well, very definitely, but there is, there are things that the TV movie does contribute to the mix.

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And I struggled.

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We've only just recorded our commentary that we released last week, and I did struggle to see what that might be, but certainly, you know, the changing nature of TV production and that kind of thing at least, and sort of a strong emphasis on the visual and a strong emphasis on relationships between the companions.

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You know, I think maybe that starts to come in there.

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So I think it is something that you could watch.

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I think, you know, if you are a big fan of the new series, that you should probably see it.

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Yeah, I actually think for fans of the new series, there's a lot more in the telly movie than there was for us in 1996.

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It is closer, isn't it?

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With the kisses.

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Thank you, Todd.

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We need to get...

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I can't tell, that was a major schism in fan.

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I remember.

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Oh my Lordy.

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I remember because I said during the commentary last week and I forgot to follow it up that, you know, the 1st 2 in the park when he realises who he is and she asked him to do it again.

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I had no problem with that because it's like the 1st the 1st one is he's very excited and the 2nd one, he's just like, oh, she wants me to do it again.

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All right.

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I don't know why, you know, play it like a screwball comedy.

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But the final one with the fireworks and whatnot is just Hollywood Drek.

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And in his novelisation, Gary changes it to a hug, which I think is a lot more meaningful.

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It's a lot more personal because that kiss, they're kind of like leaning over a lectern at each other.

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There's a football field between them.

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You know, there's nothing intimate about it.

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It's a special effect shot.

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Well, people did sort of see it as the Americanisation of Doctor Who around about the time you've got Scully and Mulder with their sort of chemistry and that kind of thing.

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And, you know, it was turning the doctor into a leading man.

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But you got to remember when Russell brings the show back.

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He doesn't want the doctor to be the sort of, I think his words are neutered public schoolboy, that he had always been.

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And so there is a real kind of take a drink, Frisson, you know, between Rose and the doctor, Rose and Eccleston's doctor.

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You do have to take an archetype, though.

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The doctorate has always been, as we've often said, a singulaka of so many other good things.

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There's nothing new about Doctor Who.

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There was nothing new about any of Sidney Newman's thinking.

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And if we look considered Newman's ideas for the show, going right back.

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Very little of it progressed to the screen.

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Thankfully, just as in the Avengers. very little of his stuff actually came good.

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And the reasons we remember it. happenstance, cleverness, and in that Avengers Coast, Leonard White, or in our case, Ferdie Lambert, or in this case, if we're still talking about the telly movie, What was it?

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Little moments between the actors that make it work.

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And I think I think a lot of what is good and recognisable in the telling movie is down to Matthew Jacobs, who was a fan.

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He had a familial involvement in the show, as we mentioned last week, son of Anthony Jacobs, who played Doc Holiday in the Gunfighters, and he had a real passion for it.

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And as you said last week, Richard, a lot of the kind of real shoehorned fan references in there actually came.

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They fit so well, don't they?

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actually came from Philip.

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Siegel, who, to his credit, I think he was trying to do what was JNT's downfall, which was a pease.

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So do you consider him to be your hero of the era if I put a question like that?

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Who is your hero of the era?

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The McGann era?

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Which is basically the telling me.

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Okay, well, you know, mentioning the Levines.

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It was Randy and Mark Loficier, who were the Levines on this script and who were sending him the notes, which ended up on screen.

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There was that emendation to the opening dialogue, the opening monologue, remember, that the doctor has 13 lives, and I think the original script said 12.

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What that was, when the doctor turns around to Grace in her condo and says, I have 13 lives, they have to add DR. mute the audio.

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Watch his lips.

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He says 12.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Wow.

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And the Lefisier's caught that and went.

206
00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:37.980
And the thing is, though, the thing is, yes, it's a role one.

207
00:16:37.980 --> 00:16:39.779
No one cares.

208
00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:41.639
We don't even care.

209
00:16:41.700 --> 00:16:51.480
Like, literally, maybe 100,000 people are part of the US audience and maybe a 1000000 people of the UK audience would have actually sat there and gone, well, I'm switching this off now.

210
00:16:51.539 --> 00:16:53.279
You've got it all wrong.

211
00:16:53.340 --> 00:16:57.120
I mean, so the officiers are your hero of the era.

212
00:16:57.179 --> 00:17:00.299
Oh, anti-heroes. starting with the anti-heroes thing.

213
00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:06.960
But if we're saying the McGann era, it's um, it's the great stuff that was done with Big Finish.

214
00:17:07.019 --> 00:17:17.220
And I think if we're talking about antecedents to the new show, the big finish audios are just as strongly, if not more so, because we have some of the writers involved now too, than this telly movie.

215
00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:19.079
This was just a little springboard, little push.

216
00:17:19.619 --> 00:17:24.539
In terms of my hero of the film, you know, I think Paul does a great job.

217
00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:33.599
And I did just praise Matthew Jacobs, but despite really the sort of fan wank attitude he took, he took to continuity.

218
00:17:33.660 --> 00:17:42.480
I do have to praise Philip Siegel because I've seen him in interviews and to him, this wasn't just, hey, I can make a really lucrative TV show.

219
00:17:42.539 --> 00:17:46.380
This was him going, this is a wonderful idea with potential.

220
00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:51.059
He worked in television, so he understood why the BBC had taken off the air.

221
00:17:51.119 --> 00:18:03.839
And one of the reasons they taken it off the air was they couldn't afford to make it as good as it should look because I think we were all in agreement that most of Sylvester's scripts were of a high quality let down by production values.

222
00:18:04.019 --> 00:18:09.599
But yeah, his attitude was, okay, if we need the money, I'm going to get the money.

223
00:18:09.660 --> 00:18:19.319
And frankly, if he wasn't passionate about it, he wouldn't have worked for 7 years across 4 different jobs trying to get it made.

224
00:18:19.980 --> 00:18:24.359
For me, it's whoever decided not to do a reboot.

225
00:18:24.420 --> 00:18:26.759
Look, I don't care about continuity.

226
00:18:26.819 --> 00:18:29.279
I think Doctor Who has an extremely loose continuity.

227
00:18:29.339 --> 00:18:38.160
I've said before, you know, regeneration is a stupid idea, but it's just enough to explain why we keep recasting the main role every 3 or 4 years.

228
00:18:39.539 --> 00:18:57.000
There is a continuity in the sense that it's existed as a single television show for sort of 50 something years and it's lovely to think that it was never rebooted, you know, like we can still refer to the macra if we want to because that's fun. you know.

229
00:18:57.059 --> 00:18:59.400
And so that through line.

230
00:18:59.460 --> 00:19:16.859
You know, the fact that in human nature we get to see all of those doctors for the 1st time, including McGann, you know, on the screen, and, you know, the fact that he can come back for the 50th anniversary and participate and, you know, bring something new to the show's mythology.

231
00:19:16.920 --> 00:19:19.740
I think that's really lovely.

232
00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:27.420
And so I would have hated for either the telemovie or the 2005 series to be a reboot.

233
00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:28.380
That would have been a shame.

234
00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:46.920
Um, It's kind of weird who decided to make it a continuation because the BBC wanted it to be a continuation, but Joe Wright and Alan Yentob were not keen to have Silv back because he was seen as his era was seen internally as being a failure.

235
00:19:46.980 --> 00:19:48.839
And why remind the audience that that happened?

236
00:19:48.900 --> 00:19:54.299
So there was lots of talk about bringing Tom Baker back for the 1st few minutes of the film.

237
00:19:54.359 --> 00:20:04.619
But again, it was Philip Siegel, who said, if we're bringing back an old doctor, we're making it a direct continuation, we owe that to the fans, we either either reboot it or...

238
00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:07.740
Yeah, well, McGann, it was McGann that was bringing him in saying he's my mate.

239
00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:12.480
He told me to run for this in the 1st place and say hello to you all, because the hanging gale, the sequel had seen.

240
00:20:12.539 --> 00:20:18.599
There was a whole lot of that happenstance coincidence and enemy action, as says in Goldfinger.

241
00:20:18.660 --> 00:20:21.480
Yeah, but, you know, it was, it was, began's doing the God.

242
00:20:21.539 --> 00:20:23.519
Well, that's very interesting, Brendan.

243
00:20:23.579 --> 00:20:32.880
And certainly, you know, I wouldn't have put Seagull up there as my hero. of the era but now that you've just said that, you know, I'd certainly put him up there.

244
00:20:32.940 --> 00:20:39.420
The other person is McGann, who I think has very little to work with and does a great job. in the 70 odd minutes.

245
00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:40.200
He's actually on screen.

246
00:20:40.259 --> 00:20:41.339
I think he's extraordinary.

247
00:20:41.400 --> 00:20:55.740
He just looks like someone who isn't, as you've said, when you've had dinner with him yourself, and when other people have said, when they sat with him, he looks like someone who's just slightly uncomfortable with the whole idea of being a part of this, which is exactly what you want in an actor playing the doctor.

248
00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:58.079
I don't want someone to play it like Brian Blessed.

249
00:20:58.140 --> 00:20:59.339
Yeah, yeah.

250
00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:06.660
The impression we always get from Paul McGann is that he's very grateful that it's liked, but he doesn't quite understand what all the fuss is about.

251
00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:12.900
He's just he just goes on and says the words kind of thing. of how the doctor is supposed to be, which is muddling through.

252
00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:15.180
We will get that with the next doctor, obviously.

253
00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:15.779
Yes.

254
00:21:15.900 --> 00:21:24.539
But yeah, I can't I can't fault any of the 4 leads, and I consider the leads to be Paul, Daphne, Yee Yee, and Eric Roberts.

255
00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:27.000
And at the time, Eric Roberts was hated.

256
00:21:27.059 --> 00:21:27.779
Do you guys remember?

257
00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:29.099
Oh, yeah.

258
00:21:29.160 --> 00:21:32.400
And even I didn't like him, but now I think he actually brings a lot to that role.

259
00:21:32.460 --> 00:21:35.220
He brings lightness and campiness and we need some of that.

260
00:21:35.460 --> 00:21:38.160
It's taking itself very seriously.

261
00:21:38.220 --> 00:21:42.359
You know, and I think something else it brings is, you know, the doctor is a very British hero.

262
00:21:42.420 --> 00:21:43.380
He's drinking tea.

263
00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:44.519
He has jelly babies.

264
00:21:44.579 --> 00:21:45.779
He's wearing a frock coat.

265
00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:49.500
And the master in this is a very American villain.

266
00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:51.539
You know, he's dressed in black leather.

267
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:53.039
He's cackling, he's laughing.

268
00:21:53.099 --> 00:21:54.180
He's got an American accent.

269
00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:57.900
You know, he looks like the term... his TV, Eric Roberts.

270
00:21:57.960 --> 00:22:00.720
Just like every casting situation in America.

271
00:22:00.779 --> 00:22:01.920
He's dripping in guns.

272
00:22:04.259 --> 00:22:07.140
Too soon, Mr. Weinstein, too soon.

273
00:22:07.140 --> 00:22:15.420
We do need to move on from the era, but before we do, I guess I'd like to ask you, who gets the Jenny Laird award?

274
00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:17.160
Oh yeah, we didn't do that last week.

275
00:22:17.220 --> 00:22:18.720
Jenny Laird Award for the telly movie.

276
00:22:18.779 --> 00:22:19.019
Gosh.

277
00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:20.640
The officio's.

278
00:22:20.700 --> 00:22:35.880
If you've read the book, the, um, the, um, um, doctor or the nth doctor, it was great because Siegel just said they stole all the material and betrayed his trust and yeah, those 2 wrote it, but listen, get, look up what Siegel says about those two.

279
00:22:35.940 --> 00:22:38.880
He's filthy about them because they really did.

280
00:22:38.940 --> 00:22:48.599
They really did run away with stuff that was, you know, supposedly in creative work. you say these things and you write these things and that they just went off with it and made money with it.

281
00:22:48.660 --> 00:22:52.559
It's a shame because it is a fantastic book and it is very well written.

282
00:22:52.619 --> 00:22:53.880
Yeah, I love the anth stock.

283
00:22:53.940 --> 00:22:59.940
And you know, Timothy Dalton was in the frame for one, for the jewels of time, Denny Martin Flynn version of the film.

284
00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:02.640
But anyway, sorry, Nathan, you're Jenny Laird.

285
00:23:02.700 --> 00:23:21.480
Well, I think my Jenny Laird award goes to just the fundamental misunderstanding of the show, which has been a problem since the 80s, which is this is a cult science fiction show for a small group of obsessive teenage boys.

286
00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:24.359
And so that's how we're going to reintroduce it.

287
00:23:24.359 --> 00:23:31.619
And we're going to fling as much mythology at the screen as we possibly can in as short a time as possible.

288
00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:35.400
And you'll notice when it comes back, we don't get any of that.

289
00:23:35.460 --> 00:23:38.579
And that was, that's what ruins it, I think.

290
00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:41.759
Oh, look, that's a good one, I certainly think.

291
00:23:41.819 --> 00:23:44.099
I support you in that nomination.

292
00:23:44.220 --> 00:23:46.079
I do have another.

293
00:23:46.140 --> 00:23:47.819
The wig.

294
00:23:49.619 --> 00:23:52.079
The worst wigs insanely.

295
00:23:52.140 --> 00:23:55.079
I'm going to say something very specific, which is.

296
00:23:55.259 --> 00:24:02.640
So I suppose it's either Jeffrey Sachs or Patrick Lassier, who, in general, otherwise do a very good job, so that's the director and the editor.

297
00:24:02.700 --> 00:24:06.240
But I do believe the film should have opened in San Francisco.

298
00:24:06.299 --> 00:24:08.339
The TARDIS lands, the doctor steps out.

299
00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:09.240
We have no idea who he is.

300
00:24:09.299 --> 00:24:10.380
We've never seen the inside.

301
00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:19.980
All that stuff they shot leading up to that. is just a flashback later on when the doctor arrives back in the Tartis and explains to Grace how we got in all this mess.

302
00:24:20.220 --> 00:24:21.900
Don't do that.

303
00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:27.839
But, you know, that way you still you still get Sylvester in the story, but it sets up a mystery.

304
00:24:27.900 --> 00:24:35.039
It gives you a bit of breathing space when you get back in in the TARDIS towards the end and that would be kind of the top of act three.

305
00:24:35.099 --> 00:24:36.720
This was kind of written with a 3 act.

306
00:24:36.779 --> 00:24:38.339
Sorry, a 6 act structure, I have to say.

307
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:39.539
So this is the top of act five.

308
00:24:39.599 --> 00:24:42.720
You know, Grace finally loses it and says, you know, what is this place?

309
00:24:42.779 --> 00:24:43.259
Who are you?

310
00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:45.599
And he says, I'm a I am a time lord.

311
00:24:45.660 --> 00:24:49.019
He is also a timelord, and this is why I changed my face.

312
00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:51.599
And you have it as a flashback then.

313
00:24:51.660 --> 00:24:58.079
And that way you still get the big reveal at the Tatus when Chang Li steps inside, which is one of the most magical moments of the film.

314
00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:10.019
And the way that is shot informs Rose and Martha's 1st look inside the Tatus, and especially Catherine Tate, who runs outside the Tatus, and runs around the back of it like Chang Li does.

315
00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:16.980
So, yeah, I think with that simple reedit, the film would have been better received by the general public.

316
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:19.140
Hey, it doesn't matter to us as fans.

317
00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:23.339
We know that the big interior he's in is in that little box that's spinning around.

318
00:25:23.339 --> 00:25:26.940
And it wasn't until like 2001 that someone pointed out to me.

319
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:30.000
You know, how confusing would that have been?

320
00:25:30.059 --> 00:25:34.680
And then I went, actually, yeah, you know, it's fine for me, but how confusing is that for everyone else?

321
00:25:34.740 --> 00:25:40.799
The way the way to write the structure of this screenplay is not something that's happened since this film.

322
00:25:40.859 --> 00:25:46.920
You go back to any Hitchcock under David Selznik, and you can see how to set this film up.

323
00:25:46.980 --> 00:25:48.359
It's all about anticipation.

324
00:25:48.420 --> 00:25:51.660
Okay, it doesn't necessarily have to be through a thriller.

325
00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:52.920
It's simply for a reveal.

326
00:25:52.980 --> 00:26:04.079
And I would not, I'm talking about the birds. actually talking about the earlier films like spellbound, notorious, any of the ones that he did where you've got this assemblage of there aren't that many players in this.

327
00:26:04.140 --> 00:26:05.579
So it's not actually hard to structure.

328
00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:10.259
Maybe we should look at doing that at a subsequent story and just see how we would have rewritten this.

329
00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:14.759
Haven't had time to think about it yet, but I would go back to look at Rebecca. for example.

330
00:26:14.819 --> 00:26:15.599
Yeah, yeah.

331
00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:16.920
See how we filmed that.

332
00:26:16.980 --> 00:26:19.259
Any final thoughts on the 8th doctor?

333
00:26:20.220 --> 00:26:22.319
I thought he was great.

334
00:26:22.380 --> 00:26:30.359
He did the best job he could with not even bad material, but just, as I think I've used a word before, mediocre material.

335
00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:37.500
And that's not an indictment of Matthew Jacobs, as you said, Richard. kind of the 1st 3rd is Matthew Jacobs.

336
00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:38.220
And you know what?

337
00:26:38.279 --> 00:26:40.920
Knowing that now you can really feel the shifting quality.

338
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:45.180
I think, you know, that kind of coincides from when the eye of harmony opens.

339
00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:52.019
All of the stuff with the doctor and grace in her condo before that is magnificent character building and then after that it becomes a car chase.

340
00:27:43.079 --> 00:27:46.079
We recently finished watching the McCoy era.

341
00:27:46.140 --> 00:27:52.859
Having seen that all through, how have you left feeling those 3 years?

342
00:27:53.579 --> 00:28:14.220
I think that it's one of my favourite eras of the classic series, and part of that is, we've said before, the sense of relief that the cold dead hand of Seywood has gone from the show, he's one of the podcasts, he's our evil nemesis, I think, on the podcast.

343
00:28:14.279 --> 00:28:18.779
His, his, yeah, his Sutex pillow plumper, isn't he?

344
00:28:19.799 --> 00:28:21.299
Which you can now purchase.

345
00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:28.079
Yes, yes, Dear Clayton Hickman has a red bubble store and you can buy a black cushion with a hand on it.

346
00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:31.680
So Nathan, who is your hero of this era?

347
00:28:31.799 --> 00:28:32.640
Carmel?

348
00:28:32.700 --> 00:28:33.240
I think.

349
00:28:33.299 --> 00:28:34.920
I mean, you know, he's very young.

350
00:28:34.980 --> 00:28:37.680
He's not sort of massively experienced at this point.

351
00:28:37.740 --> 00:28:55.859
He does have some problems getting scripts to time, but what he does is something that, say, would claim he was unable to do, which was find writers that hadn't written for the show before and get them to do things that the show had never done before.

352
00:28:55.920 --> 00:29:08.579
And I think my runner-up hero is Sylvester McCoy, who I don't think is the best actor ever to have taken the role, but he is fun to watch.

353
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:16.079
I think he's appealing to watch and the show stops being as nasty as it had been.

354
00:29:16.140 --> 00:29:21.059
It starts going places that it's never gone before.

355
00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:31.019
It's overtly political, and so it tries to be about something rather than just being about, you know, the Doctor Who Monster book.

356
00:29:31.079 --> 00:29:36.180
And so, you know, like I'm really positive about that era of the show.

357
00:29:37.140 --> 00:29:40.079
My hero of the era is self as well.

358
00:29:40.140 --> 00:29:44.460
Um, because, you know, it's kind of funny.

359
00:29:44.519 --> 00:29:46.859
We talk about behind the scenes on the show.

360
00:29:46.859 --> 00:29:52.200
And, you know, famously, if Tom Baker didn't like something, it was not going to be a good day on the studio floor.

361
00:29:52.319 --> 00:30:02.099
Whereas it seems that when Silv doesn't like something, he takes the director or Andrew Cartmel aside and he says, and gets some drunk.

362
00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:08.759
But he just, he seems to just say to them, well, look, I don't think the doctor would shoot the bazooka, but why don't we give that to Ace?

363
00:30:08.819 --> 00:30:10.799
I don't think the doctor would say it this way.

364
00:30:10.859 --> 00:30:12.000
I think he would say it that way.

365
00:30:12.059 --> 00:30:14.279
Oh, okay, you've got a shootout at the end.

366
00:30:14.339 --> 00:30:16.799
Why don't I appeal to the daleks logic?

367
00:30:16.920 --> 00:30:31.500
So, What I love so much about him is that when he thinks the script doesn't work, he works with the people around him to make it better rather than just having a strop.

368
00:30:31.740 --> 00:30:38.099
And when he and Sophie talk about when we had guest stars when we tried to make them feel welcome.

369
00:30:39.180 --> 00:30:42.539
I really get the impression that that is.

370
00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:44.819
The absolute truth.

371
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:47.339
You know, when they talk about the people they worked with.

372
00:30:47.400 --> 00:30:52.920
The only kind of people they talk about were a bit difficult was Anton Differing, who didn't really want to do the show.

373
00:30:52.980 --> 00:30:54.839
He just wanted to watch the tennis, I think.

374
00:30:54.900 --> 00:30:58.619
And Sophie Aldred says of Anthony Ainley.

375
00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:06.779
No, people say they didn't get on with him, but I got on with it, but I like cricket, you know, so they are just so warm and complimentary about the people they worked with.

376
00:31:06.779 --> 00:31:13.980
And They cared about getting the right idea across.

377
00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:22.859
Despite the fact that, you know, by that 3rd year, they must have known that the ratings weren't as large as the production team were hoping for, but that never diminished their enthusiasm.

378
00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:25.980
Or the quality of the work, which kept ramping up.

379
00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:27.420
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

380
00:31:27.480 --> 00:31:29.700
And, you know, I agree with Nathan that.

381
00:31:29.940 --> 00:31:46.200
He's probably not the finest actor to hold the role or even the 2nd finest, but there's a reason for me that when I score every story out of 10 that season 25 and 26 are only behind the David Tennick, Catherine Tate season in terms of an average.

382
00:31:46.259 --> 00:31:52.500
And I think it's due to the way that Silv leads the company.

383
00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:55.619
You know, Andrew Carmel is certainly worthy of praise.

384
00:31:55.680 --> 00:32:02.700
JNT at this point, I think, because he was kind of resigned, the fact he was here, but he had someone he could trust in the role of Carmel.

385
00:32:02.819 --> 00:32:04.799
Sophie's great.

386
00:32:04.859 --> 00:32:12.900
Bonnie does her best with very limited material, and at this point she was not the experienced actress she would later become.

387
00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:28.019
And you know, you look at her work now, and she's on EastEnders, which isn't necessarily seen as the height of drama, but I've seen some of her stuff on EastEnders, and it could be from a weekly big budget drama, her, her, um, her grandmother character.

388
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:30.539
So, yeah, it has to be sil for me.

389
00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:31.859
Richard?

390
00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:37.019
Oh, well, it's hard coming in at the end when you've all said exactly what I feel as well.

391
00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:42.299
Only to say that, like all of these pieces, it's no one person that makes it work.

392
00:32:42.359 --> 00:32:46.740
It's a melange or simulac or a cake. a big cake.

393
00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:51.480
So it is silf, but it's also Dominic Glynn and Mark Ez and Cartmoor Land.

394
00:32:51.539 --> 00:33:03.299
It's also Briggs, and it's also Platt, and it's also the more sitting about, having brainstorms and being creative and realising that empathy is the thing that we're actually writing about.

395
00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:09.900
And for me, McCoy, at the time, I'm remembering, we have a program here called Late Night Live, which is still going after almost 40 years.

396
00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:16.740
Um, Philip Adams is the host, the guy who revived the Australian film industry in the 70s.

397
00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:22.440
And our friend, perhaps not of the broadcast, Kate Norman, was on his show back in the 90s.

398
00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:30.599
And she said, well, when this was just when this was coming to an end, And she said he was, um, McCoy is her favourite doctor of all time at the time.

399
00:33:30.660 --> 00:33:32.700
We tend to say that with the current doctor.

400
00:33:32.759 --> 00:33:41.039
But she had real reasons as a very writer, a very certainly a very good fan writer, just a writer anyway, to say that.

401
00:33:41.099 --> 00:33:56.460
And I really agree with what she said then, and I remember what she said in the 90s, which was that we just have someone on screen, the doctor that we can completely involve ourselves with and who has a depth and a scope of presence on screen that is completely absorbing.

402
00:33:56.640 --> 00:34:00.599
You also have to focus hard because you can't understand a bloody word he's saying.

403
00:34:00.660 --> 00:34:01.799
She didn't say that, I did.

404
00:34:01.859 --> 00:34:06.359
But he makes me pay attention and be involved with him.

405
00:34:06.420 --> 00:34:10.980
And for those little moments that you're saying, argue with logic, show some empathy.

406
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:11.519
Not too much.

407
00:34:11.579 --> 00:34:12.780
Don't crowd the scene.

408
00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:14.460
Just a little bit.

409
00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:16.679
No, there's so much reward to coming back to this.

410
00:34:16.739 --> 00:34:20.219
I've enjoyed this much more than I did at the time and I liked it at the time.

411
00:34:20.699 --> 00:34:24.900
Look, I agree with a lot of what everybody else has said, listeners.

412
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:37.500
I think Andrew Cartnell and his approach and the freshness and the newness, um, he's a real hero and I think the empathy that Sylvester projects.

413
00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:41.099
And, you know, yeah, the quieter moments.

414
00:34:41.159 --> 00:34:51.780
I think there's a real, there's a presence there, and I think that for me, those 2 really, as well as the musical people that we've discussed are certainly the heroes of this era.

415
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:57.599
Okay, if we're having a hero, we do have the anti-hero or what I would call the villain of the era.

416
00:34:57.659 --> 00:35:01.139
And mine goes to Kev McCulloch.

417
00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:10.199
Um, um, except for the theme music, which I really like, but basically every single score, except for the Daleks.

418
00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:17.639
I do have 2 runners up and that is the director of Paradise Towers and the director of Battlefield, who I think just got it so wrong or just didn't bother to direct.

419
00:35:17.699 --> 00:35:19.559
So is that Mallet and Kerrigan?

420
00:35:19.619 --> 00:35:22.920
That's Mallet, who at least redeems himself with a cursive Fendrick.

421
00:35:22.980 --> 00:35:24.539
But I'm with Todd, Michael Kerrigan.

422
00:35:24.599 --> 00:35:26.280
Michael Kerrigan is my villain in the year.

423
00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:28.739
Just harsh but fair.

424
00:35:28.860 --> 00:35:33.599
Yeah, just his direction of battlefield is just so flat.

425
00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:48.539
And I've read an interview where someone from the, from one of the actors, I can't remember exactly who, but essentially said that Michael Kerrigan considered himself as slumming it in this story, so just kind of took a point the cameras and get the shot over with a broach.

426
00:35:48.599 --> 00:35:54.840
But, you know, I think I've said this before, that if one of your worst stories of an era is battlefield.

427
00:35:54.900 --> 00:35:56.280
Yeah, you're doing okay.

428
00:35:56.340 --> 00:36:00.119
For me, battlefield is like the time monster.

429
00:36:00.179 --> 00:36:03.179
It's just terrifically enjoyable.

430
00:36:03.239 --> 00:36:05.039
The unit thing helps.

431
00:36:05.099 --> 00:36:09.420
You know, you've got the doctor has a whole bunch of friends working with him in it.

432
00:36:09.480 --> 00:36:14.460
I always love it when that happens and it's just sunny and there's lots of location stuff.

433
00:36:14.519 --> 00:36:15.840
So it is terrible.

434
00:36:15.900 --> 00:36:18.179
It's got CEF and it's got Michael Kerrigan.

435
00:36:18.239 --> 00:36:20.579
But I can't bring myself to hate it.

436
00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:27.059
Oh yeah, I don't, I don't hate it, but yeah, I just feel, it's the weakest direction of the whole era.

437
00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:28.320
Even so.

438
00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:30.599
Still doesn't look that bad.

439
00:36:30.659 --> 00:36:32.940
Oh yeah, every, you know, everyone's in shock.

440
00:36:33.420 --> 00:36:35.340
I'm being shot.

441
00:36:35.820 --> 00:36:37.559
There's a title.

442
00:36:37.619 --> 00:36:40.739
The camera only moves when it's meant to, yeah, you know.

443
00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:41.460
All right.

444
00:36:41.519 --> 00:36:42.539
My next question.

445
00:36:42.599 --> 00:36:48.840
Well, there's actually 3 of them, and it's just, I just wanted an answer off the top of your head without reasons.

446
00:36:48.900 --> 00:36:49.619
Okay.

447
00:36:49.679 --> 00:36:51.599
So, one to watch.

448
00:36:51.659 --> 00:36:54.179
Oh, um, because Fenrick.

449
00:36:54.659 --> 00:36:56.760
Greatest Show in the Galaxy.

450
00:36:56.820 --> 00:37:00.000
The campy bits and silver nemesis. which is everything.

451
00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:01.619
Remembrance of the Daleks.

452
00:37:01.679 --> 00:37:03.599
Nice, probably the right answer, actually.

453
00:37:03.780 --> 00:37:07.559
I had the nice questions, so I had a bit of time.

454
00:37:07.619 --> 00:37:09.000
The reference is the stand-up one actually.

455
00:37:09.059 --> 00:37:10.500
And the 1st one you go back to.

456
00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:11.460
It's extraordinary.

457
00:37:11.519 --> 00:37:12.900
Okay, one to avoid.

458
00:37:16.500 --> 00:37:19.320
Dragonfire, even though it's hard.

459
00:37:19.380 --> 00:37:20.280
Okay, quickly.

460
00:37:20.340 --> 00:37:22.920
I'm tending towards Dragonfire as well.

461
00:37:23.099 --> 00:37:26.639
I apologise to Richard now, but I'm saying Silver Nemesis.

462
00:37:26.699 --> 00:37:27.539
That's good.

463
00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:28.619
I like your answer.

464
00:37:28.679 --> 00:37:30.179
I'm going to Paradise Chalice people.

465
00:37:30.239 --> 00:37:31.079
You'll know why.

466
00:37:31.139 --> 00:37:35.159
Okay, and one to be made into a feature film starring Sylvester McCoy.

467
00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:36.900
Oh, oh, oh.

468
00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:37.980
Remembrance.

469
00:37:38.039 --> 00:37:38.760
Happiness Patrol.

470
00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:42.239
Now stop it because that's my answer too.

471
00:37:42.300 --> 00:37:43.619
Yeah, now I'm going with that.

472
00:37:43.679 --> 00:37:46.860
Because you could do it all as film noir.

473
00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:48.000
I'm not feeding you, Nathan.

474
00:37:48.059 --> 00:37:50.519
No, no, but no, you're exactly right, Richard.

475
00:37:50.579 --> 00:37:52.320
Do it as an awesome Wales film noir.

476
00:37:52.619 --> 00:37:55.320
With some German expressionistic.

477
00:37:55.380 --> 00:37:56.880
Got so much depth to it, you know?

478
00:37:56.880 --> 00:37:58.139
It really does, though, doesn't it?

479
00:37:58.199 --> 00:38:06.300
Yeah, with Marlena Dietrich as Helen A. No, there's only one Helen A. Sheila Hancock's still with us.

480
00:38:06.599 --> 00:38:08.099
All right.

481
00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:09.719
That's McCoy era.

482
00:38:09.780 --> 00:38:10.800
We shall now move on.

483
00:38:41.099 --> 00:38:46.079
Okay, we're now to the Colin Baker era, and I will put it out there.

484
00:38:46.139 --> 00:38:52.679
What have you discovered, learnt positive negative about the rewatch in this era?

485
00:38:52.800 --> 00:39:10.440
So I've learned that Colin Baker has some real strengths in the role and that includes his comic timing and whenever he is silly or whenever he's being made fun of.

486
00:39:10.500 --> 00:39:13.980
He's really quite loveable.

487
00:39:14.039 --> 00:39:16.079
And that's not how we see him generally.

488
00:39:16.139 --> 00:39:16.920
Do you know what I mean?

489
00:39:16.980 --> 00:39:22.380
Like the idea is that he's abrasive and self-centred and bombastic and all of that sort of thing.

490
00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:25.679
And I don't find that aspect of him very enjoyable to watch.

491
00:39:25.739 --> 00:39:31.019
But like grabbing his teddy bear off hunker and tandral in the mysterious part.

492
00:39:31.019 --> 00:39:35.699
Or, you know, like trying and failing to repair the TARDIS and all of those kinds of things.

493
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:40.019
I think he's terribly sweet and I wasn't really aware of that before.

494
00:39:40.079 --> 00:39:41.519
Okay, others?

495
00:39:41.579 --> 00:39:47.519
I think it highlights a difference that I just mentioned with Silv because Silv knew that the program was in trouble.

496
00:39:47.579 --> 00:39:54.179
So when he was saying, oh, I want to make this as best as I can as possible, that was part of his thinking for the arguing I mentioned.

497
00:39:54.599 --> 00:40:01.739
No one told the production office that Doctor Who was in trouble until they'd already finished shooting Colin's 1st season.

498
00:40:01.860 --> 00:40:07.320
So as far as Colin and Nicola knew, they were doing exactly what was being asked of them.

499
00:40:07.380 --> 00:40:24.539
And then to have that gut punch at the end of, actually, we're not happy with what you've been doing when no one has made any of those noises during the whole job, for both of them to stay with the show and say, actually, you know what?

500
00:40:24.599 --> 00:40:27.960
Some of those criticisms are valid, we're going to address that, we're going to change our performances.

501
00:40:28.019 --> 00:40:35.159
It's very big of them both as actors when really the problems of the show, I don't think, well, anything to do with them.

502
00:40:35.219 --> 00:40:36.840
It was direction they were given.

503
00:40:36.900 --> 00:40:40.619
I've always liked Collins doctor on television.

504
00:40:40.679 --> 00:40:52.139
When I was a kid, John and Sil were my favourite doctors, as I became an adult, it became Patrick and Colin, and with Patrick, and I'll talk about this more later, it's what he does.

505
00:40:52.199 --> 00:40:56.519
And with Colin, it's what I can see, he's trying to do.

506
00:40:56.519 --> 00:41:13.019
And there are so many of those loud bombastic moments where, You can then see he he goes very quiet and he's trying to inject a bit more depth to it, which the script in the direction isn't isn't allowing.

507
00:41:13.079 --> 00:41:21.599
So what, yeah, what I feel about that era is, It's tragic that in order to allow the actors to play the parts more like they envisioned them.

508
00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:34.559
It took getting the show taken off the air for JNT to start listening to his leading actors when they were saying things like, oh, you know, yes, I want the character to be a bit abrasive, but I don't want him to be shouting all the time.

509
00:41:34.679 --> 00:41:37.380
Okay, no, I'm shouting, fine, if you're really sure.

510
00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:39.179
So they trusted the production crew.

511
00:41:39.719 --> 00:41:44.940
And the production crew trusted the big brass and no one was properly talking to each other.

512
00:41:45.059 --> 00:41:52.860
You know, it's a bit like that story with Ken Dodd later on in Delta and the Bannermen, where they're sitting in the van going, oh, his performance is terrible.

513
00:41:52.920 --> 00:42:09.539
We're going to write him out and still sitting there going, no, tell him, you know, um, so, what, what comes through to me is, I can just see what he's trying to do, and it's a shame that by the time we get that, we only get 4 stories of, of Colin's doctor.

514
00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:17.099
I really think we don't see Cohen's doctor all that much in his 1st season, but by his 2nd season, he's on he's on top of the part.

515
00:42:17.699 --> 00:42:27.420
I just wanted to say too, that the 2nd thing that struck me is how disappointing the treatment of Perry is.

516
00:42:27.480 --> 00:42:40.320
The female lead of the show has for 3 years been fabulous gobby, Australian, you know, air hostess, who... is... whom I adored at the time.

517
00:42:40.380 --> 00:42:41.579
I just thought she was fabulous.

518
00:42:41.639 --> 00:42:49.679
Sorry, I remember not tuning into Arc of Infinity episode one because I was so angry that she'd been left behind at the end.

519
00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:50.460
It was actually a shock.

520
00:42:50.519 --> 00:42:53.340
There were a lot of dropped jaws in the playground. the next time.

521
00:42:53.400 --> 00:42:54.119
I was furious.

522
00:42:54.179 --> 00:42:55.980
And I think she's a wonderful character.

523
00:42:56.039 --> 00:42:58.199
I think she plays off Pete really very well.

524
00:42:58.260 --> 00:43:03.119
And they replace her with someone who exists basically to be ogled and manhandled by men.

525
00:43:03.119 --> 00:43:09.900
And there is no companion who has had a worse time on the show.

526
00:43:09.960 --> 00:43:12.780
If you imagine that they're a real person undergoing this.

527
00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:18.659
We thought Sarah Jane had a pretty bad time, but Perry's time was vastly worse.

528
00:43:18.719 --> 00:43:30.239
And so introducing in 1980, what, five, 1984, introducing a female character with that as the concept is indefensible.

529
00:43:30.300 --> 00:43:33.119
And she is so charming.

530
00:43:33.179 --> 00:43:34.139
Do you know what I mean?

531
00:43:34.199 --> 00:43:37.619
She brings all sorts of charm to the life.

532
00:43:37.679 --> 00:43:41.639
Yeah, she's lovely, but it's horrible to watch how she's treated.

533
00:43:41.880 --> 00:43:43.380
Richard?

534
00:43:43.440 --> 00:44:10.019
I've kind of said, because I'm really not qualified to say, because I've not been able to watch, and it's for the reasons that we've all talked about, and I'm really, the loveliest thing that I've experienced as a just as a diet in the world devoted fan is that I can now say I have an appreciation because of Todd, actually, but all of you, but it's just Todd's enthusiasm, enthusiasm, listening to you all on the podcast, because I've still not been able to watch it all through.

535
00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:15.179
I just think, I find it painful to actually sit, me and Steve from New to Who.

536
00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:16.679
See, I've named Chechen now.

537
00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:23.460
But yeah, I'm kind of with him on that that I just find it difficult to watch, but I'm really interested in seeing it.

538
00:44:23.460 --> 00:44:25.559
And I want to see it for all the things.

539
00:44:25.619 --> 00:44:30.360
For me, big finish and the audios are just as much canon, as we're not allowed to say on the podcast.

540
00:44:30.420 --> 00:44:41.340
But for me, Colin exists on the audios as Paul exists on the audios and he's, and I really adore what he does. through that.

541
00:44:41.400 --> 00:44:42.719
So yes, I'd like to go back.

542
00:44:42.780 --> 00:44:55.260
But for all the sabrediness, and again, the Perry thing, and my friends, like Roman Laurie, who sometimes listens to this podcast as well, it's just, you know, we can't get over how the female lead was treated.

543
00:44:55.320 --> 00:44:57.119
It's not Doctor Who to do that.

544
00:44:57.179 --> 00:45:00.960
And yeah, you've, you've come, you've all, you've all covered it.

545
00:45:00.960 --> 00:45:03.719
And they do redress it and they do, they do fix it.

546
00:45:03.780 --> 00:45:06.900
I think it's time to go back and perhaps watch season 23.

547
00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:08.579
Who's up for that?

548
00:45:08.639 --> 00:45:09.539
Right.

549
00:45:09.539 --> 00:45:11.460
I'll always watch trial again.

550
00:45:11.519 --> 00:45:13.679
I to watch it.

551
00:45:13.739 --> 00:45:14.519
I bring the champagne.

552
00:45:14.579 --> 00:45:19.800
Oh, actually, we've got the marriage equality thing declared in just a week or two, haven't we?

553
00:45:19.860 --> 00:45:21.300
By the time this comes out.

554
00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:23.039
Yeah it'll probably be done one way or the other.

555
00:45:23.099 --> 00:45:28.679
A few days before the big bad dog party at Kasula, art centre and power station, which is all about that.

556
00:45:28.739 --> 00:45:32.099
So I think we should all be rocking up for that one.

557
00:45:32.159 --> 00:45:34.139
Yeah, we were talking about going as kangs.

558
00:45:34.199 --> 00:45:36.360
Because isn't the theme 2 tribes?

559
00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:40.320
Yes we were.

560
00:45:40.380 --> 00:45:41.579
We put a note here.

561
00:45:41.639 --> 00:45:43.380
We recommend we do recommend this.

562
00:45:43.440 --> 00:45:46.079
There are a lot of who fans that go to bad dog.

563
00:45:46.139 --> 00:45:47.159
This might come out after that.

564
00:45:47.219 --> 00:45:48.539
So we'll put it up on the Facebook group.

565
00:45:48.659 --> 00:46:08.699
Okay, so, you know, obviously as a huge supporter of Colin and the era, it's been incredible to go back and watch it with different eyes and and see flaws that are there and to understand why things happened and how they address things.

566
00:46:08.760 --> 00:46:14.039
Nathan has gone on about the silliness that he's so good at.

567
00:46:14.099 --> 00:46:19.679
But also the other thing, which you really opened my eyes to, was how good colonies on location.

568
00:46:19.860 --> 00:46:23.099
And that's one of the big...

569
00:46:23.099 --> 00:46:25.380
Just on location when you're straight when you're on film.

570
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:26.219
Mysterious play.

571
00:46:26.219 --> 00:46:26.639
Yeah.

572
00:46:26.699 --> 00:46:28.139
Well, any any location.

573
00:46:28.199 --> 00:46:32.880
He's so good in Revelation when on that laugh out loud.

574
00:46:33.539 --> 00:46:43.440
Yeah, but I'm just saying, like, even, you know, moments in the Trin dilemma, where they're shot outside in film where he's giving it at all, and it's quite funny, and Attack of the Simon, and I love all the stuff in the street, and that's the thing.

575
00:46:43.500 --> 00:46:45.360
So for me, that's one of the biggest things.

576
00:46:45.420 --> 00:46:49.500
And how different, how different the performance is between the 2 seasons.

577
00:46:49.559 --> 00:46:56.639
I never realised how much he had addressed criticisms and really taken a completely different tack.

578
00:46:56.760 --> 00:46:59.579
I still adore season 22 listeners.

579
00:46:59.639 --> 00:47:01.920
I know everybody else has a lot of problems with it.

580
00:47:01.980 --> 00:47:18.659
It's my favourite season of the 1980s and I say that totally unashamed because Attack of the Summer, Benjamin Farous, 2 doctors and Revelation of the Daleks are 4 of my, they would be in my top 30, top 20, and Mark of the Rani I like, and Tonish might be crap, but it's a fun crap to watch.

581
00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:23.340
The funny thing is for me, despite that, you know I'm a season 24 supporter.

582
00:47:23.400 --> 00:47:26.579
So you and I are like as far away from each other as we can be.

583
00:47:26.639 --> 00:47:29.880
But objectively, I have to agree that season 22 is better.

584
00:47:29.940 --> 00:47:31.380
It's better in terms of scripts.

585
00:47:31.440 --> 00:47:37.500
I think it's better in terms of the relationship, despite the fact that Perry is treated horribly in some stories.

586
00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:44.760
She and Colin get some really funny and even really tender moments, even though his character is still quite hard in that season.

587
00:47:44.880 --> 00:47:47.280
You can have those stars, bitch scenes, and that's a problem.

588
00:47:47.280 --> 00:47:55.079
Of the 45 minutes and Eric Seywood's, you know, not able to actually, you know, structure things properly.

589
00:47:55.139 --> 00:48:00.179
So on that note, I'm going to say, who is the villain of the era?

590
00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:03.059
Okay, so villain on the count of three, everyone.

591
00:48:03.119 --> 00:48:04.500
One, two, three.

592
00:48:04.559 --> 00:48:06.480
Eric, say.

593
00:48:06.539 --> 00:48:07.199
There we are.

594
00:48:07.260 --> 00:48:09.179
God.

595
00:48:09.179 --> 00:48:14.099
I'll be back when we discuss the fist doctor.

596
00:48:14.940 --> 00:48:19.260
The no no monster can ever work alone in the dark.

597
00:48:19.320 --> 00:48:19.920
No, no.

598
00:48:19.980 --> 00:48:22.079
That's just producing Bruceisms, isn't it?

599
00:48:22.139 --> 00:48:23.400
if you work alone in the dark.

600
00:48:23.460 --> 00:48:24.360
That's the thing.

601
00:48:24.420 --> 00:48:25.320
I think, I think...

602
00:48:25.320 --> 00:48:38.519
Possibly even because he has to step into the script editing breach when Eric leaves, I think maybe JNT has a moment of self-realisation at the end of trial and that's why he's so handoff, hands off with...

603
00:48:38.579 --> 00:48:41.460
So there's a hugely toxic relationship between the 2 of them, isn't there?

604
00:48:41.519 --> 00:48:44.460
I mean, it's reflected the companion and the doctor's relationship.

605
00:48:44.519 --> 00:48:46.679
They're just writing their own love tiffs up on screen.

606
00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:50.039
So although J and T, we're not seeing, is like front and centre.

607
00:48:50.099 --> 00:48:53.400
He's the relationship. in that relationship.

608
00:48:53.579 --> 00:48:56.159
He's the feeder. perfect.

609
00:48:56.219 --> 00:48:57.900
He's the theatre.

610
00:48:57.960 --> 00:49:01.559
So, um, one to watch.

611
00:49:02.219 --> 00:49:05.340
Oh, oh, oh, oh, God.

612
00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:06.059
Mark the Rani.

613
00:49:06.179 --> 00:49:07.079
Mark the Rani.

614
00:49:07.139 --> 00:49:08.579
Terror of the vervoid.

615
00:49:08.639 --> 00:49:09.300
Oh my god.

616
00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:10.980
Lordy, what?

617
00:49:10.980 --> 00:49:13.559
I'd have to say, sorry, the Dalek one.

618
00:49:13.980 --> 00:49:16.199
I don't know any of them.

619
00:49:16.260 --> 00:49:18.179
Attack of the cybermen.

620
00:49:18.239 --> 00:49:20.579
Yeah. 1st episode attack this up.

621
00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:22.079
Yeah, why is that so disliked?

622
00:49:22.139 --> 00:49:23.400
I found it terrible.

623
00:49:24.239 --> 00:49:26.039
Let's just ignore Nathan for the moment.

624
00:49:26.280 --> 00:49:28.920
Okay, one to avoid.

625
00:49:28.980 --> 00:49:30.239
One to avoid.

626
00:49:30.300 --> 00:49:33.480
Can I go one, two, three, and we all say the same thing?

627
00:49:33.539 --> 00:49:34.440
Okay, see if it works.

628
00:49:34.500 --> 00:49:36.780
One, two, three.

629
00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:38.460
The twin dilemma.

630
00:49:38.760 --> 00:49:40.920
Mark of the running.

631
00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:43.139
It's the script.

632
00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:46.800
It's just I challenge everyone to go and read Dan Hogan.

633
00:49:46.920 --> 00:49:49.500
That's the script. makes no sense.

634
00:49:49.559 --> 00:49:51.119
But yeah, yeah, twin dilemma.

635
00:49:51.179 --> 00:49:54.119
I don't know, it has a lovely 50s campy feel to it.

636
00:49:54.179 --> 00:49:56.400
It actually feels like a No, it's horrible.

637
00:49:56.460 --> 00:49:57.300
It's atrocity.

638
00:49:57.360 --> 00:50:04.440
The hero of the era for me is Colin trying to do what he can do with the scripts, with what's going on in production.

639
00:50:04.500 --> 00:50:12.000
Baffling decisions behind the scenes, getting through the coach and still maintaining a positive attitude towards the show after all this time.

640
00:50:12.059 --> 00:50:13.320
Yeah, me too.

641
00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:22.260
For my heroes of the era from here on out, I just want all our listeners to assume I'm going to say whoever's playing the doctor because I don't think we've had a bad doctor.

642
00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:25.980
So for my heroes of the era, I'm going to say kind of my 2nd hero.

643
00:50:26.039 --> 00:50:28.559
My 2nd hero of this era.

644
00:50:28.619 --> 00:50:32.760
Nicola Bryant gets an honourable mention, but it's Michael Jason.

645
00:50:32.760 --> 00:50:34.500
Because, oh, interesting.

646
00:50:34.500 --> 00:50:52.440
Because after the show has been cancelled and it's looked down on, trodden into the dirt, Michael Jason comes on and He plays his part as if he is on a show that is getting 12000000 viewers a week.

647
00:50:52.559 --> 00:51:02.820
He doesn't allow the negative press to affect his performance because he could have easily given a scenery chewing kid's panto performance.

648
00:51:02.880 --> 00:51:18.360
Instead, he is dark and menacing, and it has this amazing effect because Colin is still very bombastic in those scenes, and Michael Jason hardly raises his voice at any and he's always just this very calm, lugubrious character.

649
00:51:19.139 --> 00:51:34.079
Which makes the reveal at the end all the more powerful because they have been opposites all the way through, and still to this day, Michael is incredibly proud of having played the doctor, and why aren't I in the montages, Russell T. Davis?

650
00:51:34.139 --> 00:51:38.579
You know, so he approached it with so much pride then and now.

651
00:51:38.639 --> 00:51:41.400
So, yeah, Michael Jason for me.

652
00:51:41.460 --> 00:51:42.480
Okay.

653
00:51:42.539 --> 00:51:49.679
And one to be made into a blockbuster movie starring Colin Baker.

654
00:51:49.739 --> 00:51:51.659
Attack of the Cybermen.

655
00:51:51.719 --> 00:51:56.159
Attack of the side, I meant with the original conclusion of a battle on Halley's Comet.

656
00:51:56.219 --> 00:52:02.460
If you can get rid of some of the word peril and replace it with actual things that happen, that would be great fun.

657
00:52:02.519 --> 00:52:13.079
And I would bring back the original design of the tombs. you know, the way that we, you know, started to adopt some of that stuff in the Capaldi era when the cybermen came along.

658
00:52:13.139 --> 00:52:16.739
We would have some of those design elements from the tombs in there.

659
00:52:16.800 --> 00:52:18.900
I think that that would be really terrifically fun.

660
00:52:18.960 --> 00:52:27.360
I wonder if Colin had not would not have actually, you know, we would have had very different conversations if twin dilemma had simply never been made.

661
00:52:27.420 --> 00:52:29.579
And we started off with attack.

662
00:52:29.639 --> 00:52:30.900
I think so.

663
00:52:30.960 --> 00:52:31.619
I think so.

664
00:52:31.679 --> 00:52:33.179
Todd what do you think?

665
00:52:33.239 --> 00:52:34.800
I'm gonna put it out there right now.

666
00:52:34.860 --> 00:52:39.480
I think episode one of the trend dilemma is possibly the worst episode ever of Doctor Who.

667
00:52:39.780 --> 00:52:48.300
Not because of corn, but because of the attack on Perry and the entire cast, which I'm not going to get started on again.

668
00:52:48.360 --> 00:52:49.320
Are we going to get a ranch?

669
00:52:49.320 --> 00:53:01.440
just appalling and so if there's any new who people out there who want to watch this, you actually have to watch the whole thing of the twin dilemma for Collins' performance and nothing else.

670
00:53:01.500 --> 00:53:03.000
Black and white and backwards.

671
00:53:03.059 --> 00:53:05.400
You can't just respond into one episode.

672
00:53:05.460 --> 00:53:07.260
Otherwise you'll just make a judgement.

673
00:53:07.320 --> 00:53:12.059
But no, Richard is absolutely right in watching the Colin Baker area in black and white.

674
00:53:12.119 --> 00:53:15.420
The coat looks amazing in black and white because it has symmetry.

675
00:53:15.480 --> 00:53:18.420
So guys, what would your movie be?

676
00:53:18.659 --> 00:53:21.840
Oh, I'm definitely doing a tag.

677
00:53:21.900 --> 00:53:24.599
I was going to do the trial of a time look completely.

678
00:53:24.659 --> 00:53:29.880
But I've decided to take just sounds so much better than only effort I'd have to go to rewriting.

679
00:53:30.119 --> 00:53:32.039
It depends on which, because you know I love film.

680
00:53:32.099 --> 00:53:34.079
It depends on which director you would give me.

681
00:53:34.199 --> 00:53:42.000
So if you gave me Val Lewis and get the scriptwriters, the script doctors for Evelyn Wars transpositions to British cinema in the 50s.

682
00:53:42.059 --> 00:53:44.880
I would do, um, the Dalek.

683
00:53:44.940 --> 00:53:46.079
I would do revelation.

684
00:53:46.139 --> 00:53:55.079
But I would do it as a 50s British Lion or Ealing film and just very subtle and very quietly and on the same budget, but just very small.

685
00:53:55.320 --> 00:54:01.559
Yeah, really interestingly, but I've got to say that I'm not very, again, not very familiar.

686
00:54:01.619 --> 00:54:04.559
Oh, you'd have to say mission to Magnus, wouldn't you?

687
00:54:05.940 --> 00:54:07.739
Can you imagine?

688
00:54:07.800 --> 00:54:09.360
It just guns and frocks.

689
00:54:09.420 --> 00:54:10.980
As a carry-on film.

690
00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:13.380
Yeah.

691
00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:14.099
Oh my god.

692
00:54:14.159 --> 00:54:16.440
It actually, the entire carry on cast.

693
00:54:16.500 --> 00:54:19.139
Bernard Brislaw magazine, I'm sorry.

694
00:54:19.199 --> 00:54:25.380
Couldn't Kenneth Williams hiss beautifully is the ice is the searing ice slaured.

695
00:54:25.440 --> 00:54:28.079
And I think Charles Hawtrey is the leader of the women.

696
00:54:28.139 --> 00:54:31.320
Right on that note, we're going to the Peter Davis era.

697
00:55:02.340 --> 00:55:11.699
We're going to start off with, you know, what we've taken away or what we've discovered, and I'm going to start this one off because it is my least favourite era of the show.

698
00:55:11.760 --> 00:55:16.320
But I'm going to say this. season 21, Davison is fantastic.

699
00:55:16.380 --> 00:55:19.500
And if I had to judge him just on that season, I'd put him in the top 3 doctors.

700
00:55:19.500 --> 00:55:22.920
And that, For me, is huge.

701
00:55:23.460 --> 00:55:25.800
However, he's not judged on that.

702
00:55:25.860 --> 00:55:34.619
There are 2 seasons before that, which I find, I can watch 3 episodes of Snake Dance and 3 episodes of Enlightenment, but every other story I couldn't do more than two.

703
00:55:34.860 --> 00:55:37.380
I was finding it hard too, actually.

704
00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:49.619
But having said that, it's so hilarious that in my head, I have him, Adject, Mr. and Tegan just emblazoned in my head as the team, you know, by my child, you know, because we had books with it and everything like that.

705
00:55:49.679 --> 00:55:54.480
So and he's got a great energy coming into the show in the 1st 3 or 4 stories that he does.

706
00:55:54.539 --> 00:55:57.539
Great charm too, yeah, to start off with.

707
00:55:57.659 --> 00:56:00.659
I just had that, that, it's that malaise in the middle.

708
00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:05.880
And so my villain of the era is Eric Seywood, a script editor, coming into that role too soon.

709
00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:11.639
Yeah, well, you can see the switchover from Bidmead to say what and just how the entire tone changes.

710
00:56:11.699 --> 00:56:13.139
Nathan.

711
00:56:13.260 --> 00:56:19.079
Well, I think that Pete is one of the best actors ever to take the role.

712
00:56:19.139 --> 00:56:21.239
He's never been out of work since.

713
00:56:21.300 --> 00:56:30.119
He's given some really terrible material, but his performance is much, much more interesting than people give it credit for.

714
00:56:30.119 --> 00:56:35.880
And coming off Tom, whose performance we've said before, isn't an acting performance.

715
00:56:35.940 --> 00:56:42.119
It's just that he's incredibly compelling to watch. amazingly charismatic.

716
00:56:42.360 --> 00:56:45.719
And then you go to Pete, who acts in the role.

717
00:56:45.840 --> 00:56:55.739
And he is by no means the sort of bland, nice, sweet doctor that Perry claims he was.

718
00:56:55.800 --> 00:56:58.500
He's tetchy and impatient.

719
00:56:58.559 --> 00:57:01.920
The running, which he introduces to the show.

720
00:57:01.980 --> 00:57:06.539
You know, it's so hard to run when you're barely on location.

721
00:57:06.599 --> 00:57:07.619
Or Peter Capaldi.

722
00:57:09.539 --> 00:57:12.239
He's the best at running.

723
00:57:12.300 --> 00:57:14.639
He runs like Peter Cushing.

724
00:57:14.699 --> 00:57:18.059
It's wonderful My God, he does too.

725
00:57:18.360 --> 00:57:20.760
No, I think we've said it before.

726
00:57:20.820 --> 00:57:25.980
Armando Yanucci says that there's nothing funnier that you can put on screen than Peter Capoldi running.

727
00:57:26.039 --> 00:57:29.460
So Pete introduces a thing running...

728
00:57:29.519 --> 00:57:31.980
That's it.

729
00:57:32.219 --> 00:57:34.320
He's so good.

730
00:57:34.380 --> 00:57:45.000
And even when the material he's given is not good, and it frequently isn't, I mean, it doesn't get as nasty as say it would stuff eventually gets.

731
00:57:45.059 --> 00:57:48.480
There's vastly less cannibalism in the Peter Davis.

732
00:57:48.539 --> 00:57:50.699
You had to say that.

733
00:57:50.699 --> 00:57:55.619
And no one would dare to torture Tegan the way that Perry gets tortured.

734
00:57:55.679 --> 00:57:57.059
And he's smart.

735
00:57:57.119 --> 00:57:58.380
He's so smart.

736
00:57:58.440 --> 00:58:02.039
And you can tell from his commentaries just how clever he is.

737
00:58:02.099 --> 00:58:04.980
So I think he's the real hero of the era.

738
00:58:05.039 --> 00:58:06.900
I think he's really amazing.

739
00:58:06.960 --> 00:58:10.800
And I would agree that Seyward is the villain.

740
00:58:10.800 --> 00:58:16.199
And he's already sidelining Pete in his own scripts.

741
00:58:16.260 --> 00:58:20.880
He's much more interested in telling stories about soldiers.

742
00:58:20.880 --> 00:58:22.739
And telebiogenesis.

743
00:58:22.800 --> 00:58:26.760
Well, no, I would be happy for there to be more telebiogenesis.

744
00:58:26.820 --> 00:58:28.860
Really, there's a lot of there's a lot of info dumping.

745
00:58:28.920 --> 00:58:47.280
There is, but what there also is, is a critique of the doctor as a hero because he refuses to carry a gun that makes him in Seyward's eyes passive and ineffectual, and that's something that absolutely haunts Collins era.

746
00:58:47.340 --> 00:58:51.300
Like Colin is really disrespected as a hero.

747
00:58:51.360 --> 00:59:02.760
And that's why he's, you know, conceived as unpleasant, why he has to be shouty and selfish because Saywood doesn't like the doctor as an idea.

748
00:59:02.820 --> 00:59:08.219
And already he's sidelined and the yearly remakes of earth shock.

749
00:59:08.280 --> 00:59:08.820
I think.

750
00:59:09.059 --> 00:59:11.099
They're terrible.

751
00:59:11.219 --> 00:59:13.320
What would you name the name?

752
00:59:13.380 --> 00:59:15.900
Earthshock, Earthshock 2.

753
00:59:16.440 --> 00:59:18.000
The Return?

754
00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:20.820
Earth Shock 2 of the Daleks of the Shock 3.

755
00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:23.099
It's pretty much every 2nd story.

756
00:59:23.159 --> 00:59:27.059
Every 2nd story, you could say, is...

757
00:59:27.059 --> 00:59:29.219
Nathan, I do agree with you.

758
00:59:29.280 --> 00:59:32.579
Pete is a hero of this era.

759
00:59:32.639 --> 00:59:35.940
The other person I would also nominate would be Janet Fielding.

760
00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:36.539
Oh, me too.

761
00:59:36.599 --> 00:59:37.739
Yeah, absolutely.

762
00:59:37.800 --> 00:59:43.199
And I adored her as a child and now I think she's fantastic.

763
00:59:43.260 --> 00:59:45.360
I think she's really, really great.

764
00:59:45.420 --> 00:59:56.639
And even the stuff that she says about the program and its representation of women and, you know, getting Pete and and Janet on a commentary is wonderful.

765
00:59:56.880 --> 01:00:01.199
They're both super honest about the program and super funny.

766
01:00:01.260 --> 01:00:06.360
And I know that there are people who find the sort of endless tearing the show apart rather tiresome after a while.

767
01:00:06.420 --> 01:00:08.159
Surely not people who listen to us.

768
01:00:08.639 --> 01:00:12.840
But Janet is just, just incredible.

769
01:00:12.900 --> 01:00:13.920
Really really great.

770
01:00:13.980 --> 01:00:18.659
Once Tegan gets drunk, you know, that's a story, which Black Orchid.

771
01:00:18.719 --> 01:00:19.019
Thank you.

772
01:00:19.079 --> 01:00:21.119
I'm twitching dealers.

773
01:00:21.179 --> 01:00:24.599
Her performance from that point on is it's nuanced.

774
01:00:24.599 --> 01:00:26.099
Before then, it's not as nuanced.

775
01:00:26.159 --> 01:00:32.820
But from that point on, there's just something where she navigates those scripts in Tegan's character that just really works.

776
01:00:32.880 --> 01:00:34.800
And she works well with paid as well.

777
01:00:34.860 --> 01:00:38.099
You know, like she works really terrifically well with Pete.

778
01:00:38.280 --> 01:00:40.380
Are the members of the team?

779
01:00:40.440 --> 01:00:41.039
Richard?

780
01:00:41.460 --> 01:00:44.039
Oh, it's so interesting.

781
01:00:44.099 --> 01:00:58.320
And at the time, I was with really with Pete that I felt that Nissa, that Sarah's character was really the person that I wanted to see and that I wanted to see more of her and now I can't wait for her to get the hell off the screen.

782
01:00:59.340 --> 01:01:03.539
And she's really a dead centre and it's certainly not her performing.

783
01:01:03.599 --> 01:01:04.500
I think you're right.

784
01:01:04.559 --> 01:01:11.099
It's that Sabord has a bugbear that he sees compassion as weakness and that really does come across.

785
01:01:11.159 --> 01:01:18.840
But we also have people who are smart, who are in the leads, who are seeing that and winkling it out.

786
01:01:18.900 --> 01:01:32.280
So you've got Janet playing the feisty, mouthy, but also throwing, that's her, their own personalities will always overcome the limitations of the material, or the limitations of, of, you know, the background direction.

787
01:01:32.400 --> 01:01:35.280
So yes, I agree with you completely on that one.

788
01:01:35.340 --> 01:01:36.840
What are there any other little gifts?

789
01:01:36.900 --> 01:01:47.639
I think there was a lot to work against, and I think a lot of it has to do with the dying days of BBC in-house drama, just the ways of making it.

790
01:01:47.699 --> 01:02:02.639
So yes, I would, I would point a black boney finger at every lighting technician that worked for the BBC at the time and the way the things were produced on such a quick turnover and so, and also that they had to make that many stories.

791
01:02:02.699 --> 01:02:10.019
I would have liked a bit more creative freedom and license that perhaps this season we're only going to do 12 or 14, but we'll do them longer.

792
01:02:10.019 --> 01:02:18.480
It will be dependent upon how the script is, like any theatre group, any rep group or any proper cinematic artistic thing.

793
01:02:18.539 --> 01:02:24.300
Look at what Patrick Magoon was able to do with the prisoner or in fact, what ITC were doing in the 60s.

794
01:02:24.360 --> 01:02:24.960
Not so much now.

795
01:02:25.019 --> 01:02:36.840
But Doctor Who was, when it started was part of that whole creative push of testing the medium and being clever and for the sake of a bigger, not just for its own sake, but for creativity.

796
01:02:36.960 --> 01:02:43.860
So it was a fresh creative idea and it came out of a time when pretty much everything was a fresh creative idea.

797
01:02:43.920 --> 01:02:51.119
And we now seem to be struggling against the limitations of production codes and what we required to do.

798
01:02:51.179 --> 01:02:52.619
It's been corporatised.

799
01:02:52.679 --> 01:02:58.679
I mean, you can really feel the people within it trying so hard to do something good and pushing against that.

800
01:02:58.739 --> 01:03:00.059
Brendan.

801
01:03:00.119 --> 01:03:01.199
Yeah.

802
01:03:01.260 --> 01:03:09.420
With Pete, the thing I really noticed watching it through again. was The subtle edges.

803
01:03:09.480 --> 01:03:17.099
He has always been my least favourite doctor and I think he possibly still is, but he's come up much closer to the others.

804
01:03:17.340 --> 01:03:19.860
And it's those subtle little moments.

805
01:03:19.920 --> 01:03:21.780
It the tetchiness you mentioned, Nathan.

806
01:03:21.840 --> 01:03:31.500
It's, Also, I think he and Sylvester and Patrick are the ones who really get the sadness of the character.

807
01:03:31.559 --> 01:03:36.960
And I think with Peter, it's a lot, it's a lot more under the surface, unlike it is with the other two.

808
01:03:37.019 --> 01:03:45.539
There's a Doctor Who drinking game that says, you know, take a shot every time the 5th doctor, grins, then frowns fetchingly.

809
01:03:45.719 --> 01:03:57.000
And the thing is, the way I look at those, like, grins and them frowning is his doctor kind of going, Oh, that's amusing and now it's stopped.

810
01:03:57.119 --> 01:04:01.800
That's how I see him looking at the character of this time, Lord.

811
01:04:01.860 --> 01:04:03.420
You know, everything is fleeting to him.

812
01:04:03.480 --> 01:04:04.199
It's already done.

813
01:04:04.260 --> 01:04:04.800
It's already gone.

814
01:04:05.340 --> 01:04:08.340
And another thing I just love about him.

815
01:04:08.400 --> 01:04:18.000
And I think this is the antidote we get to, the Sewardism of this era, which we don't necessarily get in Collins era, is that...

816
01:04:18.000 --> 01:04:33.599
Davison's doctor is, this person who desperately believes in good and peace in the universe, and despite the fact that the universe keeps kicking him in the face, he never gives up on that, you know.

817
01:04:33.659 --> 01:04:38.940
Look at Warriors of the Deep, where he's punched, he's thrown into a reactor pool.

818
01:04:39.000 --> 01:04:40.079
He's assumed drowned.

819
01:04:40.139 --> 01:04:41.940
And when he finally gets to the bridge.

820
01:04:42.000 --> 01:04:44.219
The 1st thing he does is hand hands over his gun.

821
01:04:44.280 --> 01:04:46.619
He's not going in there to fight.

822
01:04:46.679 --> 01:04:49.199
He going in there to talk, even if it gets him killed.

823
01:04:49.260 --> 01:04:51.960
And that's what Robert Holmes brings out in the character in the final story.

824
01:04:52.019 --> 01:04:59.820
And I think that's why Andrazani is possibly Davidson's favourite story because it gets that his doctor, he's not interested in killing the gun runners.

825
01:04:59.880 --> 01:05:07.380
He's not interested in necessarily stopping their drug trade, what he's interested in is saving his friend because this is all his fault.

826
01:05:07.440 --> 01:05:12.719
It's a shame that Andrew Zani didn't get to do more script editing as the show right now.

827
01:05:12.900 --> 01:05:23.400
So my villain of this era isn't so much say word because I think say word at this point because of his inexperience. can't be held entirely accountable.

828
01:05:23.519 --> 01:05:28.800
You know, in the Colin era, he had his chance to make a whole new show and blew it.

829
01:05:28.860 --> 01:05:30.840
So who is the villain?

830
01:05:30.900 --> 01:05:36.179
Whoever decided that Christopher Hamilton bit me couldn't have a pay rise to stay on.

831
01:05:36.599 --> 01:05:41.760
Okay, there's there's 2 winners here, but yeah, you know, that that is that is very good.

832
01:05:41.820 --> 01:05:57.539
Yeah, because, um, because yeah, I think the biggest problem with SayWord in this era is he just didn't have the experience to work on a show of this magnitude and I think throughout that 2nd season, you can see he's doing his best because with that 2nd season of 6 stories.

833
01:05:57.599 --> 01:06:01.739
I think there are 3 stories that are good.

834
01:06:01.800 --> 01:06:12.420
I think you've got Snake Dance, Modern Undead, and Enlightenment, and I think the other 3 fall short, possibly because the attention was being spent on those 3 good ones, you know, and it was like triage.

835
01:06:12.480 --> 01:06:16.320
It's like, I'm going to get these 3 good ones out the door and I'm sorry guys, but the other ones.

836
01:06:17.340 --> 01:06:22.440
But by the time you get to 21, I think Seward knows what he's doing.

837
01:06:22.500 --> 01:06:22.920
Yeah, yeah.

838
01:06:22.980 --> 01:06:23.400
And you know what?

839
01:06:23.519 --> 01:06:29.039
21, despite the violence in resurrection, 21 is a really good balance.

840
01:06:29.219 --> 01:06:31.679
Until twin dilemma comes along.

841
01:06:31.739 --> 01:06:36.719
But twin dilemma is we've just made 3 epically good stories.

842
01:06:36.780 --> 01:06:39.480
I know you're not a big fan of resurrection Nathan, but I think it's good.

843
01:06:39.539 --> 01:06:44.219
You've got resurrection, you've got Planet of Fire, you've got Caves of Andrazani.

844
01:06:44.280 --> 01:06:56.820
They've gone all out to give their 3 regulars, a big sendoff, and they've got this sort of end of season where they just think that having a new doctor will coast them along the line.

845
01:06:56.880 --> 01:06:58.019
The turkeys in the oven.

846
01:06:58.079 --> 01:06:58.559
Yeah.

847
01:06:58.739 --> 01:07:01.139
But so my hero...

848
01:07:01.139 --> 01:07:01.920
What am I saying this?

849
01:07:01.980 --> 01:07:04.320
My hero of the era is Janet.

850
01:07:04.380 --> 01:07:05.280
Yay.

851
01:07:05.280 --> 01:07:16.320
And it's because everyone remembers her as being angry and mean, just as everyone remembers Davidson as being feckless and stupid, and it's like, no, they actually got a lot more in common with each other.

852
01:07:16.380 --> 01:07:19.019
And despite how much they argue.

853
01:07:19.079 --> 01:07:26.760
The loyalty between the characters and the love between the characters is incredibly obvious because if it wasn't.

854
01:07:26.820 --> 01:07:33.659
And if it was that Davison was just her whipping boy and she was and she was just a horrible harrow and...

855
01:07:33.719 --> 01:07:45.300
That end scene of Resurrection, the Daleks wouldn't have any resonance, but what it is, it's this character who's been so strong finally saying, no, this isn't acceptable.

856
01:07:45.360 --> 01:07:45.960
I can't do this.

857
01:07:46.019 --> 01:07:48.300
I've had enough say word and I'm not coming back.

858
01:07:48.360 --> 01:07:58.920
And the character who has been her best friend and has sort of talks her down from her angrier moments, suddenly has nothing to say.

859
01:07:58.980 --> 01:08:03.480
You know, it's a really effective moment from from the 2 actors.

860
01:08:03.599 --> 01:08:10.380
And yeah, that's why Janet Fielding's, my hero of the era, because even without that subtlety until Black Orchid.

861
01:08:10.440 --> 01:08:12.960
And I agree, Black Orchid is when she really comes into it.

862
01:08:13.380 --> 01:08:21.420
Even in her probably worst performance, which is for to doomsday when she's stomping around the TARDIS, she's still entertaining and funny.

863
01:08:21.479 --> 01:08:22.500
Cheers.

864
01:08:22.739 --> 01:08:33.060
Just thinking, can you imagine doing work that 5 years, 10 years, 20 years later, everyone can critique and still does?

865
01:08:33.119 --> 01:08:36.420
Can you imagine the stuff that we do when we turn up?

866
01:08:36.479 --> 01:08:39.119
will be constantly critiqued for the rest of our time?

867
01:08:39.180 --> 01:08:41.279
Um, say what?

868
01:08:41.340 --> 01:08:50.819
Say what, for all that we're saying, did also, I'm just remembering, gave, gave us enlightenment and Kinder, and I've got to say, when Earth Chock 1st came out, I really loved it.

869
01:08:50.880 --> 01:08:53.399
As a 14 year old boy, fantastic.

870
01:08:53.460 --> 01:08:55.979
I think he gets a lot more right in this era than he gets wrong.

871
01:08:56.039 --> 01:08:58.079
There's a lot of good things there.

872
01:08:58.140 --> 01:09:12.960
So maybe it's actually just about the Moffat syndrome or the MS, as we now call it, because it's a recognised illness, is that let people do their good work for the time that they can, but even RTD would say it don't linger too long.

873
01:09:13.020 --> 01:09:13.739
Yes.

874
01:09:13.739 --> 01:09:14.520
Okay.

875
01:09:14.579 --> 01:09:17.100
Brendan. one to watch One to watch.

876
01:09:17.159 --> 01:09:17.699
One to watch.

877
01:09:19.199 --> 01:09:23.220
I would have to say the awakening.

878
01:09:23.279 --> 01:09:31.619
Not because it's the best one, but just because I think the regulars all get some fun stuff to do, there's some great guest cast.

879
01:09:31.680 --> 01:09:35.279
And as you just alluded Richard, it doesn't outstay its welcome.

880
01:09:35.340 --> 01:09:36.300
Okay.

881
01:09:36.359 --> 01:09:38.340
For me, worries of the deep.

882
01:09:38.399 --> 01:09:39.479
Wow.

883
01:09:39.539 --> 01:09:44.939
I'd say, and it's in no way typical of the era, Caves of Andrazani.

884
01:09:45.000 --> 01:09:48.359
Okay, golly gosh, the romantic ones for me.

885
01:09:48.420 --> 01:09:56.640
So no whole story, but moments in Castravalva, moments in Enlightenment, even moments, the 1st episode of Black Orchid, I really loved and found charming.

886
01:09:56.699 --> 01:09:58.619
And it's what Pete's doctor should have been doing.

887
01:09:58.680 --> 01:10:00.119
Keep it light.

888
01:10:00.180 --> 01:10:01.319
One to avoid.

889
01:10:01.920 --> 01:10:03.659
Terminus.

890
01:10:03.720 --> 01:10:05.279
Black Orchid.

891
01:10:05.340 --> 01:10:07.560
No, I'd have to say terminus as well.

892
01:10:07.979 --> 01:10:09.840
The Dalek one.

893
01:10:09.899 --> 01:10:11.279
Yeah.

894
01:10:11.279 --> 01:10:12.060
Okay.

895
01:10:12.119 --> 01:10:19.079
And one to be made into a spectacular, successful movie out there starring Peter Davidson.

896
01:10:19.140 --> 01:10:20.039
I'm going last.

897
01:10:20.100 --> 01:10:20.819
So off you go.

898
01:10:20.880 --> 01:10:22.260
I'm going frontios.

899
01:10:22.319 --> 01:10:27.479
Oh, yeah, and that will really work in a proper hard SFY. yeah.

900
01:10:27.600 --> 01:10:29.220
Enlightenment.

901
01:10:29.279 --> 01:10:30.539
Oh no, that's cool.

902
01:10:30.600 --> 01:10:31.380
Oh, actually.

903
01:10:31.380 --> 01:10:36.659
Well, you get glimpse of glimpses of it in the special edition, but it's not very good.

904
01:10:36.720 --> 01:10:39.779
My runner-up is 4 to Doomsday.

905
01:10:39.840 --> 01:10:41.039
Yeah, cool.

906
01:10:41.100 --> 01:10:41.399
Yeah.

907
01:10:41.460 --> 01:10:43.800
With William Hartold, yeah.

908
01:10:44.939 --> 01:10:48.180
David Bradley. is really tough.

909
01:10:49.500 --> 01:11:04.800
Look, I actually think the Kinder and Snake Dance combined as one film and, you know, cross reference, I think, could be a really interesting piece, but it would very quickly end up being Avatar, if you threw a lot of money at it, because Avatar, there's a lot of that in Avatar.

910
01:11:04.859 --> 01:11:05.880
So we need to be careful.

911
01:11:06.300 --> 01:11:08.039
What we wish for.

912
01:11:08.100 --> 01:11:09.600
Time flight.

913
01:11:09.779 --> 01:11:12.960
Because I think there's some amazing concepts in there.

914
01:11:13.020 --> 01:11:15.479
Nation's about to throw a piece of upholstery.

915
01:11:15.539 --> 01:11:18.300
Nathan, is I'm about to get a bloody sofa.

916
01:11:18.539 --> 01:11:19.920
Why?

917
01:11:19.979 --> 01:11:21.300
Because, okay.

918
01:11:21.359 --> 01:11:23.460
You can actually have some dinosaurs in there.

919
01:11:23.520 --> 01:11:25.619
You can have some...

920
01:11:25.619 --> 01:11:27.300
Okay, could look gorgeous, couldn't And you know what?

921
01:11:27.359 --> 01:11:29.340
The Zeraphin idea.

922
01:11:29.399 --> 01:11:34.560
The idea of this gestolt entity, which can also be a, which can also be a power source is a fantastic idea.

923
01:11:34.619 --> 01:11:42.779
I don't think there's anything wrong with the ideas in time flight, except the master is hiding as this alien for some reason.

924
01:11:42.840 --> 01:11:45.960
Yeah, how would I was going to ask you, how would you pull that in?

925
01:11:46.079 --> 01:11:49.800
And well, that was that was a JNT suggestion.

926
01:11:49.859 --> 01:11:51.420
That wasn't in the original script.

927
01:11:51.479 --> 01:11:52.020
That's the thing.

928
01:11:52.079 --> 01:11:53.819
So you just keep Khaled as Khala.

929
01:11:53.880 --> 01:11:56.399
Well, either that or you just have the master.

930
01:11:56.760 --> 01:12:00.479
Yeah, Khalid is a little bit kind of racist.

931
01:12:00.539 --> 01:12:00.779
Yeah.

932
01:12:01.260 --> 01:12:04.920
Because the reveal of the master is just there for a cliffhanger.

933
01:12:04.979 --> 01:12:07.800
If you have it as a film, you don't need that reveal.

934
01:12:07.859 --> 01:12:12.600
You just do the Doctor Who thing off, there's someone operating a screen or you don't even know what's happening.

935
01:12:12.659 --> 01:12:19.979
You don't know who's operating this until the doctor walks into the room and sees this globe and the master says you never understand what's going on, doctor.

936
01:12:20.039 --> 01:12:22.739
Certainly the big problems with that story.

937
01:12:22.800 --> 01:12:25.859
It has no money and so it looks crappy.

938
01:12:25.859 --> 01:12:29.760
And then the end of it is a lot of Makano set sort of stuff.

939
01:12:29.760 --> 01:12:33.899
And with a feature film that had money, you would actually be able to do a proper climax.

940
01:12:33.960 --> 01:12:34.800
Yeah, exactly.

941
01:12:34.920 --> 01:12:38.100
You just want it as the last airport film, don't you?

942
01:12:38.279 --> 01:12:43.560
It is, I'd have to say, a bit light on the ground to use a dead pun.

943
01:12:43.619 --> 01:12:47.220
But yeah, like any airport disaster movie, sure.

944
01:12:47.279 --> 01:12:53.880
Well, you've got Lloyd Bridges in the in the air traffic control room, which isn't just a cupboard saying, another Lost Concord?

945
01:12:53.939 --> 01:12:55.920
Looks like I chose the wrong day to give up.

946
01:12:56.039 --> 01:12:58.979
I don't want to see the shooting of that.

947
01:13:00.420 --> 01:13:05.340
Wow, it's certainly not a response I even expected.

948
01:13:05.399 --> 01:13:13.260
I think that's one of the things I'm taken away from this journey is that there are moments where I'm just flawed by either opinions...

949
01:13:13.319 --> 01:13:14.939
Yes, who I'm sitting with?

950
01:13:15.060 --> 01:13:19.380
opinions I never thought of, or things that I see on screen that I never thought I'd never really watched before.

951
01:13:19.439 --> 01:13:21.479
What have I been living with all these things?

952
01:13:22.140 --> 01:13:27.420
Speaking of which, let's now go to the Tom Baker era.

953
01:13:57.359 --> 01:14:00.420
I like to call it the Tom Baker era.

954
01:14:00.479 --> 01:14:01.319
Oh, called, yeah.

955
01:14:01.319 --> 01:14:02.640
Yeah, because there are three of them.

956
01:14:02.760 --> 01:14:03.300
There are 3 of them.

957
01:14:03.359 --> 01:14:06.420
And they are very much defined by the producers.

958
01:14:06.479 --> 01:14:09.119
Also defending Tom.

959
01:14:09.119 --> 01:14:10.979
Yeah, Tom's taking it seriously.

960
01:14:11.039 --> 01:14:12.119
Tom's in control.

961
01:14:12.180 --> 01:14:14.880
Oh dear, Tom's not in control anymore.

962
01:14:14.939 --> 01:14:17.340
Oh, yes, behind the scenes, yes.

963
01:14:20.399 --> 01:14:21.180
What can you say?

964
01:14:21.239 --> 01:14:24.119
The man is just charismatic and I can watch him.

965
01:14:24.180 --> 01:14:34.439
Like, from the moment he arrives to the moment he leaves, even in underworld, which I can't stand, he, like, just is.

966
01:14:34.500 --> 01:14:36.180
I just can't explain it.

967
01:14:36.300 --> 01:14:36.899
He just is.

968
01:14:37.020 --> 01:14:46.260
It's that moment he appears in Robot into John Pertwee's show and completely just takes control of the entire show.

969
01:14:46.380 --> 01:14:49.800
He just shows that I don't need a regular supporting cast.

970
01:14:49.859 --> 01:14:52.859
I am absolutely fascinating to watch.

971
01:14:52.920 --> 01:15:00.960
And, you know, that's why he never read the bits of the script that he wasn't in, you know, because they're the bits that he doesn't care about.

972
01:15:01.020 --> 01:15:06.479
He's so massively, massively entertaining to watch the entire way through.

973
01:15:06.539 --> 01:15:12.779
And his performance changes, but all of the versions of Tom are compelling to watch.

974
01:15:12.840 --> 01:15:13.560
They are.

975
01:15:13.619 --> 01:15:19.920
I mean, you've got, obviously, you've got the Hinchcliffe in the 1st three, and then you've got your Graham Williams in the next three.

976
01:15:19.979 --> 01:15:25.920
But I do think they're in that in that 4th series from Fang Rock to Invasion of Time.

977
01:15:25.979 --> 01:15:28.680
I think there is a change of performance from the beginning of that to the end.

978
01:15:28.739 --> 01:15:35.220
That's the one sequence where I do see for me anyway, a change. think it's a terrible season.

979
01:15:35.279 --> 01:15:39.060
That was the biggest revelation for me is how much I absolutely loathe that season.

980
01:15:39.119 --> 01:15:46.680
It's by far my least favourite season of the Trombaker era, maybe even in the 1970s. that's a big thing.

981
01:15:46.739 --> 01:15:48.060
I really love horror of Fang Rock.

982
01:15:48.119 --> 01:15:50.340
Everything else I could like wind blowing.

983
01:15:50.399 --> 01:15:52.319
I mean, you love the sunmakers, et cetera, but I don't.

984
01:15:52.500 --> 01:16:12.359
I think part of the reason for that, though, is season 15 is, in a way, the time of biggest tumult for Doctor Who, since Hartnell's 3rd season, because even though Troughton's era had lots of shifting producers, it was like the script editor would be the producer for a week and then the associate producer would be the producer for a week.

985
01:16:12.420 --> 01:16:14.579
So it was still pretty much the same team of people.

986
01:16:14.640 --> 01:16:17.340
And before Derek Sherwin came, became producer.

987
01:16:17.399 --> 01:16:18.300
He been on the show for a year.

988
01:16:18.359 --> 01:16:20.399
So there was still a consistency of tone.

989
01:16:20.460 --> 01:16:22.500
And then you've got Robert Holmes.

990
01:16:22.560 --> 01:16:23.520
And you've got Robert Holmes comes in.

991
01:16:23.579 --> 01:16:25.079
Shadowing Terrence Dicks.

992
01:16:25.079 --> 01:16:26.340
Yeah, yeah, and all that Passover.

993
01:16:26.399 --> 01:16:29.220
But here you've got a big change of producer and script editor.

994
01:16:29.279 --> 01:16:34.260
Yeah, and the change in producer was immediate because of criticism of the violence.

995
01:16:34.319 --> 01:16:41.939
Pretty much while they were making, I think it was robots of death, Philip Hinchcliffe was told, you're being taken off the show next year.

996
01:16:42.539 --> 01:16:48.659
And so Graham Williams, who'd been preparing this crime show, which Philip Hinchcliffe was now going to be put on.

997
01:16:48.720 --> 01:16:50.159
Target, yeah.

998
01:16:50.220 --> 01:17:01.619
Graham Williams was suddenly thrust into this world of sci-fi and arrived with, as he puts it, -one script because the vampire mutations was pulled out from under him.

999
01:17:01.680 --> 01:17:06.359
So, you know, Hinchcliffe did his best to make sure that his successor had something, which the BBC then vetoed.

1000
01:17:06.479 --> 01:17:08.159
But not money, but not money.

1001
01:17:08.220 --> 01:17:12.300
But that is the 1st season where you don't have money, right?

1002
01:17:12.359 --> 01:17:17.460
And I honestly think you've got a, the Dr. Leila relationship in that year is just awful.

1003
01:17:17.579 --> 01:17:24.359
It presages the we complain about Perry and the 6th doctor, but we're really getting quite a bit of it here, aren't we?

1004
01:17:24.420 --> 01:17:25.979
That's when I get out of it.

1005
01:17:26.039 --> 01:17:29.159
Rabbits of Death, Towns of Winchaying, horror Frank Rock.

1006
01:17:29.220 --> 01:17:30.960
Just extraordinary.

1007
01:17:31.020 --> 01:17:31.619
Yeah.

1008
01:17:31.680 --> 01:17:35.220
But that's the thing with, I imagine with Tom at the time.

1009
01:17:35.279 --> 01:17:37.319
Of course, Tom didn't want an assistant at all.

1010
01:17:37.380 --> 01:17:39.539
He thought, you know, just have a new cast every week.

1011
01:17:39.600 --> 01:17:42.119
And he didn't like the character of leader setup either.

1012
01:17:42.180 --> 01:17:45.960
Although he was great in the 3 stories that tortures me.

1013
01:17:46.020 --> 01:17:46.979
Yeah, yeah.

1014
01:17:47.039 --> 01:17:49.859
And, you know, he came to respect Louise Jameson as an actress.

1015
01:17:51.119 --> 01:17:51.720
And later.

1016
01:17:51.779 --> 01:17:55.500
Much like, much like Hartnell in season three.

1017
01:17:55.560 --> 01:18:02.579
Tom, suddenly, Philip Hinchcliffe, who was an instrumental part of his casting, along with Barry.

1018
01:18:02.640 --> 01:18:03.779
So Philip Hinchcliffe is gone.

1019
01:18:03.840 --> 01:18:05.640
Liz Laddin is gone.

1020
01:18:05.699 --> 01:18:07.859
Robert Holmes is going.

1021
01:18:07.920 --> 01:18:12.239
This new producers come in, who Tom has never met before.

1022
01:18:12.300 --> 01:18:16.739
Eventually, a new script editor who Tom has never met before, and a character he doesn't agree with.

1023
01:18:17.880 --> 01:18:21.539
Introduced at a time where he doesn't even want a supporting character.

1024
01:18:21.659 --> 01:18:23.279
So you know, 1st of all, I don't want one.

1025
01:18:23.340 --> 01:18:24.720
Second of all, I don't like the character.

1026
01:18:25.020 --> 01:18:28.619
And yeah, he was talking about leaving at the end of that year.

1027
01:18:28.680 --> 01:18:35.340
And I actually think that Louise Jameson standing up to him and saying, look, Tom, whether you like it or not, I'm here.

1028
01:18:35.399 --> 01:18:36.479
I've been contracted.

1029
01:18:36.539 --> 01:18:38.039
We might as well work together.

1030
01:18:38.579 --> 01:18:40.920
And that made Tom...

1031
01:18:40.920 --> 01:18:42.899
Just kick him a bit in the nuts when she says it.

1032
01:18:42.899 --> 01:18:43.859
Just a little nudge.

1033
01:18:43.920 --> 01:18:54.840
And they both kind of say they both kind of say that that kind of snapped Tom out of it to realise he's dealing with a person, which is quite, which is quite prescient of how the internet works.

1034
01:18:54.960 --> 01:19:00.720
And you know, you then see towards the end of the season, he starts playing it more for comedy.

1035
01:19:00.779 --> 01:19:04.199
And I think he kind of went, okay, I need to do something new.

1036
01:19:04.260 --> 01:19:09.539
They don't want the broody stuff that Philip Hinchcliffe was doing because the BBC don't like that anymore.

1037
01:19:09.600 --> 01:19:10.619
I'll do something different.

1038
01:19:10.680 --> 01:19:12.840
So when we get into his 5th season.

1039
01:19:12.899 --> 01:19:14.939
He's far more back in the flow.

1040
01:19:15.000 --> 01:19:16.680
He adored Mary Tam.

1041
01:19:16.739 --> 01:19:17.819
You know.

1042
01:19:17.880 --> 01:19:19.319
She also knew exactly how to handle him.

1043
01:19:19.439 --> 01:19:20.520
Yes, yes.

1044
01:19:20.579 --> 01:19:22.079
What's it called?

1045
01:19:22.140 --> 01:19:22.739
something detachment?

1046
01:19:23.520 --> 01:19:25.560
Syndrome, yeah.

1047
01:19:25.619 --> 01:19:28.380
It was called taking a sabbatical from it.

1048
01:19:29.100 --> 01:19:31.619
And you know, I'm so glad she did.

1049
01:19:31.680 --> 01:19:32.819
Yeah, me too.

1050
01:19:32.880 --> 01:19:33.539
Me too.

1051
01:19:33.600 --> 01:19:45.720
And then you've got that, and then you've got the final season, which has its own sort of feel, the older doctor and the dismantling of the team and the era around him, which I think is a great season.

1052
01:19:46.380 --> 01:19:51.119
Yeah, I think Tom works really, really well in that season.

1053
01:19:51.180 --> 01:19:57.960
He's given 2 acting roles, you know, as old Tom in the leisure hive. and as Meglos in Meglos.

1054
01:19:58.020 --> 01:20:01.020
Yes, and decorative balcony.

1055
01:20:02.699 --> 01:20:09.720
But he, his sadness and just, you know, he just feels a little bit old.

1056
01:20:09.779 --> 01:20:12.720
He, you can sense he's a little bit over it.

1057
01:20:12.779 --> 01:20:17.520
But that season is so complex and so thematically unified.

1058
01:20:17.640 --> 01:20:21.539
Lots of Bergman in it, lots of in my Bergman. not just his death wish.

1059
01:20:21.600 --> 01:20:26.279
There's a reason he tries to land the TARDIS under the team is to flush out Andrew.

1060
01:20:26.340 --> 01:20:34.619
You know, that's it, the hands of Christopher Hamilton Bidmead, who I think can't be praised enough.

1061
01:20:34.680 --> 01:20:35.579
Yeah, agree.

1062
01:20:35.640 --> 01:20:36.899
I think that's a wonderful season.

1063
01:20:37.020 --> 01:20:38.880
Less also not forget.

1064
01:20:38.939 --> 01:20:40.199
I don't know about.

1065
01:20:40.260 --> 01:20:44.819
I mean, I talked to the man on Twitter, and I find him really terrific, and sometimes he likes what I say.

1066
01:20:44.880 --> 01:20:47.939
So, of course, we're going to get married next year if I have anything to do with it.

1067
01:20:48.000 --> 01:20:52.319
He was given from on high that poison chalice of take the comedy out.

1068
01:20:52.380 --> 01:20:53.640
Yes.

1069
01:20:53.760 --> 01:20:54.899
And what do you do with that?

1070
01:20:54.960 --> 01:21:02.399
Well, I think he actually says in retrospect, and we might have said this at the time, that he feels that he went too far with the leisure high.

1071
01:21:02.520 --> 01:21:04.680
Alice certainly pointed it out once or twice.

1072
01:21:04.739 --> 01:21:07.560
It's a magic box, please.

1073
01:21:07.680 --> 01:21:09.899
I think I think there's a rebalance.

1074
01:21:09.960 --> 01:21:11.520
Yeah, I do too.

1075
01:21:11.579 --> 01:21:12.479
That's the thing.

1076
01:21:12.539 --> 01:21:24.539
As a kid, I found season 18 quite humourless, but it's just that the humour becomes more subtle, and that's not to necessarily say it's better than season 17, which I adore.

1077
01:21:24.600 --> 01:21:33.119
But I do think, you know, Tom gets wonderful lines like, oh, normally I'm so good with children, which the previous season, he would have said, he died.

1078
01:21:33.180 --> 01:21:34.979
Normally, I'm so good with children.

1079
01:21:35.039 --> 01:21:35.819
You know?

1080
01:21:35.819 --> 01:21:36.960
Yes, yes, yes.

1081
01:21:37.020 --> 01:21:43.439
It still, it still would have been funny, but it means the jokes we do get, very often they're more, they're cleverer jokes as well.

1082
01:21:43.500 --> 01:21:50.399
And the weird thing is, I find it hard to imagine the leisure hive being better with more jokes.

1083
01:21:50.460 --> 01:22:00.000
I think it's magnificent as it is Well, I think that, you know, if we were to name, I've got a whole bunch of heroes from this era.

1084
01:22:00.060 --> 01:22:10.619
But JNT might be one of them because he is very keen to do to refresh a show that had become really tired.

1085
01:22:10.680 --> 01:22:15.420
And there were lots and lots of spaceship corridors in the previous season.

1086
01:22:15.479 --> 01:22:21.960
And the show looks so much more interesting and is much more experimental visually.

1087
01:22:21.960 --> 01:22:33.899
And the leisure hive, I think, is the best looking story of the era, even when it's effects look cheap or aren't sort of particularly impressive.

1088
01:22:33.960 --> 01:22:42.300
It's so interestingly directed, uh, and so well done that I don't have a version of the leisure hive in my head that would be better.

1089
01:22:42.359 --> 01:22:46.020
As a producer, like it is his hero moment.

1090
01:22:46.079 --> 01:22:55.439
That season is his hero moment, in terms of managing to build a new team, to give Tom to ground the show, to bring it into the 80s, all of that.

1091
01:22:55.500 --> 01:22:56.699
I agree.

1092
01:22:56.760 --> 01:23:11.039
On the same side of the coin, I also consider Graham Williams to be one of the heroes of the era in terms of being able to get the show onto air considering budget and scripting and all sorts of problems behind the scenes, even though, you know, some of it works and some of it doesn't.

1093
01:23:11.100 --> 01:23:21.960
But, I mean, season 16 looks fantastic. you know, maybe up until the very end and is incredibly entertaining.

1094
01:23:22.020 --> 01:23:34.140
And what Williams gets to do is play to the strengths of his lead to allow Tom to take centre stage and be really interesting and to make the show fun.

1095
01:23:34.260 --> 01:23:43.260
He was, as we said before, given an absolute killer brief, you know, like he's no money and you aren't allowed to be violent anymore.

1096
01:23:43.319 --> 01:23:47.699
And he makes a show that's really just smart and incredibly enjoyable.

1097
01:23:47.760 --> 01:23:57.239
What I find amazing about the 3 eras is the Hingecliff era is unashamedly based on classic cinema and classic sci-fi cinema.

1098
01:23:57.659 --> 01:24:03.779
The Graham Williams era, he looks more to literary influences and mythology.

1099
01:24:04.619 --> 01:24:08.520
And the final season looks to science.

1100
01:24:08.579 --> 01:24:09.239
Yeah.

1101
01:24:09.239 --> 01:24:21.000
And so, Doctor Who is about antecedents, even more, I think, than the previous 2 eras.

1102
01:24:21.000 --> 01:24:32.699
It's about antecedents really for the 1st time, in my opinion, in a big way, since Verity Lambert was in charge, because Verity Lambert was always looking at what's going on in science right now.

1103
01:24:32.760 --> 01:24:34.260
What did they do in Quator Mass?

1104
01:24:34.319 --> 01:24:35.039
How can we use that?

1105
01:24:35.100 --> 01:24:45.899
And the original conception for the unit era was very Quator Mass and quickly moved away from that kind of earth-base thing, to develop its own earth-base thing, which is wonderful.

1106
01:24:45.960 --> 01:24:55.859
But the great thing about having Tom's era based on all these different things is if you don't know what it's based on, that's fine.

1107
01:24:56.100 --> 01:24:59.640
But if you do, it's that extra little bit of excitement.

1108
01:24:59.699 --> 01:25:09.300
I think Hinchcliffe possibly leans a bit too heavily and the sources are a bit too revealed and, you know, it's obvious, whereas I think Graham Williams.

1109
01:25:09.420 --> 01:25:18.539
Graham Williams is really interesting to me because as much as I love his last 2 seasons, and I agree with you, Todd, that season 15 is quite weak.

1110
01:25:18.600 --> 01:25:26.279
It always feels to me like the same way John Nathan Turner was feeling in the Colin Baker era.

1111
01:25:26.340 --> 01:25:31.979
John Nathan Turner became tired after 3 or 4 years and got reinvigorated at the end.

1112
01:25:32.039 --> 01:25:35.939
Graham Williams came into Doctor Who Tired and on the run for 3 years.

1113
01:25:36.000 --> 01:25:38.460
So I agree, it's amazing. got anything out.

1114
01:25:38.520 --> 01:25:44.399
And I think the success of those last 2 years are entirely, I wouldn't, sorry, not entirely.

1115
01:25:44.460 --> 01:25:45.300
I shouldn't say entirely.

1116
01:25:45.359 --> 01:25:52.140
I think the success of those last 2 years in terms of script is down to the script editor.

1117
01:25:52.199 --> 01:26:01.020
I think Anthony Reid and Douglas Adams put so much of themselves and their own voice into the show.

1118
01:26:01.020 --> 01:26:05.760
And it, you know, you obviously notice it with Douglas Adams because he became so famous.

1119
01:26:05.819 --> 01:26:08.399
But Anthony Reid, of course, didn't become terribly famous.

1120
01:26:08.460 --> 01:26:22.140
I didn't realise until watching the making of some of the special features, which have so much stuff from him and so much input as to what his vision of the show was, that you realise, yeah, you put your fingerprints on this show just as much as Douglas Adams did.

1121
01:26:22.260 --> 01:26:23.939
So he's one of your heroes.

1122
01:26:24.000 --> 01:26:29.579
Yeah, I would actually say Anthony Reid is probably the one person I hold up.

1123
01:26:29.640 --> 01:26:33.119
And as you say, Nathan, There are so many people you could hold up.

1124
01:26:33.180 --> 01:26:41.579
So I'm going to hold up, Anthony Reid, because Graham Williams had this crazy idea of giving the doctor a mission, which I think we said at the time is a stupid idea.

1125
01:26:42.060 --> 01:26:43.739
But...

1126
01:26:43.739 --> 01:26:47.220
He and Anthony Reed make it work.

1127
01:26:47.279 --> 01:26:53.220
And when you look at something like Invasion of Time, which they wrote together, which...

1128
01:26:53.340 --> 01:26:53.939
Me too.

1129
01:26:54.000 --> 01:27:00.600
And it's made on no money with a script they thought they had in the bag and suddenly fell through.

1130
01:27:00.600 --> 01:27:03.720
And they're like, what can we use?

1131
01:27:03.779 --> 01:27:05.039
We've got these sets in storage.

1132
01:27:05.100 --> 01:27:06.600
We've got this old hospital we can use.

1133
01:27:06.659 --> 01:27:09.779
It's making a six-part Doctor Who story.

1134
01:27:09.840 --> 01:27:14.640
You could probably cut 20 minutes out of it, to be honest, but it still manages to be largely entertaining.

1135
01:27:14.699 --> 01:27:16.619
It's got a terrible writeout for Leila.

1136
01:27:16.680 --> 01:27:18.000
But until that last 5 minutes.

1137
01:27:18.359 --> 01:27:21.779
You wouldn't know that they were in this disaster.

1138
01:27:22.859 --> 01:27:24.659
I don't know about that.

1139
01:27:24.720 --> 01:27:26.880
I might be Armageddon factor.

1140
01:27:27.000 --> 01:27:28.619
Well, exactly.

1141
01:27:28.680 --> 01:27:30.659
It's their magnificent Ambersons.

1142
01:27:30.720 --> 01:27:33.600
So yes, all those flaws can make something quite great.

1143
01:27:33.659 --> 01:27:35.039
They can aerate the mix.

1144
01:27:35.100 --> 01:27:38.640
I'm continuing with the baking committer for you.

1145
01:27:38.699 --> 01:27:39.840
So, so who?

1146
01:27:39.840 --> 01:27:42.840
Oh, what are your hero?

1147
01:27:42.899 --> 01:27:52.680
I was also going to say Anthony Reed, but for slightly different reasons, but I would also say, again, it's about the mix and the contrasts, and I don't think we would have loved Tom or it could have gone on for so long.

1148
01:27:52.739 --> 01:27:58.140
If there wasn't this continual change in aeration and rebuilding it, just what we were saying before.

1149
01:27:58.199 --> 01:27:58.920
Dont stay too long.

1150
01:27:58.979 --> 01:28:02.220
But Tom, you can stay as long as you like because you kept changing.

1151
01:28:02.279 --> 01:28:05.279
I like death nil, Tom, now as an older person.

1152
01:28:05.340 --> 01:28:07.979
Because I came to Tom when I was eight.

1153
01:28:08.039 --> 01:28:11.699
That was when it 1st started showing and I was 13, I think, when he finally left.

1154
01:28:11.760 --> 01:28:13.560
So it's engrained.

1155
01:28:13.619 --> 01:28:15.479
It's tattooed on the frontal lobes.

1156
01:28:15.539 --> 01:28:17.880
I'm never, ever going to be able to get away from him.

1157
01:28:17.939 --> 01:28:19.319
I'm so glad he's still here.

1158
01:28:19.380 --> 01:28:23.100
I'm really grateful for everyone that passed through it.

1159
01:28:23.159 --> 01:28:25.560
And there was no one I would wish had not been there.

1160
01:28:25.680 --> 01:28:28.199
And even for as long as they were there.

1161
01:28:28.260 --> 01:28:29.819
That's much like life, isn't it, really?

1162
01:28:29.880 --> 01:28:31.739
You look back at Je ne pas.

1163
01:28:31.800 --> 01:28:35.279
I think Anthony I think Anthony Reid.

1164
01:28:35.340 --> 01:28:39.539
I do think there are stories in his era that are far worse than other eras.

1165
01:28:39.600 --> 01:28:42.359
Sorry, is what I was hellishly trying to say.

1166
01:28:42.420 --> 01:28:43.260
But yeah, yeah.

1167
01:28:43.319 --> 01:28:44.220
Sorry, Top God.

1168
01:28:44.279 --> 01:28:46.020
I do think that in Anthony Mizero.

1169
01:28:46.079 --> 01:28:51.840
I think there are poorer stories than in others, but they're often at the hands of Budget and Bob Baker and Dave Martin.

1170
01:28:53.100 --> 01:28:56.819
And they are one of the villains that I would say of the era.

1171
01:28:56.939 --> 01:29:12.840
I think there's a previous episode of Flies through Entirety, where someone gives me, probably Brandon gives me a list of all of the stories that Bob Baker and Dave Martin wrote, and I suddenly realise how truly, truly horrific.

1172
01:29:14.100 --> 01:29:15.840
Yeah, yeah.

1173
01:29:15.960 --> 01:29:19.020
You can hear the sound of my realisation.

1174
01:29:19.020 --> 01:29:20.220
The Bristol Bombers, yeah.

1175
01:29:21.539 --> 01:29:22.619
We're talking a lot of behind.

1176
01:29:23.279 --> 01:29:25.079
You're talking?

1177
01:29:25.079 --> 01:29:26.699
It's true. rubbish.

1178
01:29:27.239 --> 01:29:42.239
Behind the scenes, people, like various people, but in front of the camera, besides Tom, who is obviously a big hero, I just want to point out in Marta, Elizabeth Spaden, Mary Tam, and Lala Ward.

1179
01:29:42.300 --> 01:29:52.079
I won't talk about the people going into the next Europe, but that run of companions and actors spectacular.

1180
01:29:52.140 --> 01:29:54.359
You know, they sell it.

1181
01:29:54.420 --> 01:29:58.079
They can make gold out of mud if they have to.

1182
01:29:58.140 --> 01:29:59.340
Yeah.

1183
01:29:59.340 --> 01:30:02.100
Khaliz really came alive with Tom too.

1184
01:30:02.159 --> 01:30:06.899
We need to say she's a very different character in season, season with Tom.

1185
01:30:06.960 --> 01:30:10.800
I'll even say Matthew Waterhouse, final two, final two.

1186
01:30:10.859 --> 01:30:18.359
You know, he actually delivers some solid of performances with an actor who knows what he's doing, and there's a bit of confidence there in him.

1187
01:30:18.600 --> 01:30:25.979
Can I just say that I don't think we should leave the era without talking about Bob Holmes.

1188
01:30:25.979 --> 01:30:27.479
John Leeson.

1189
01:30:27.539 --> 01:30:28.380
Sorry, I forgot John Lisa.

1190
01:30:28.439 --> 01:30:29.159
He's also part of it.

1191
01:30:29.220 --> 01:30:30.119
Sorry, John.

1192
01:30:30.180 --> 01:30:31.560
And David Bryanley.

1193
01:30:31.619 --> 01:30:33.420
No, he's not a hero.

1194
01:30:33.539 --> 01:30:36.899
That's the episode title and David Bryan.

1195
01:30:37.020 --> 01:30:39.420
But the smoking bike in the room.

1196
01:30:39.539 --> 01:30:41.399
I nominate him for something?

1197
01:30:41.460 --> 01:30:42.420
Villain.

1198
01:30:42.479 --> 01:30:43.859
No, I can see.

1199
01:30:43.920 --> 01:30:55.439
Look, he is a polarising figure and I think that that's completely reasonable and there are nasty things about the Hinchcliffe era and Holmes is almost certainly to blame for like 80% of them.

1200
01:30:55.500 --> 01:30:56.520
Where are the women?

1201
01:30:56.579 --> 01:30:57.899
Sarah's treatment.

1202
01:30:57.960 --> 01:31:02.220
He dismantles everything and takes the show away from Earth, and I think that's a problem.

1203
01:31:02.279 --> 01:31:04.619
I think taking the show away from Earth is a problem as well.

1204
01:31:04.680 --> 01:31:06.600
But look at that 1st thing.

1205
01:31:06.600 --> 01:31:07.319
It had to be done though.

1206
01:31:07.380 --> 01:31:15.899
But boy, he's a great writer and you just, you know, he creates these worlds that are vastly bigger than the story that they're in.

1207
01:31:15.960 --> 01:31:18.899
He is super funny.

1208
01:31:18.960 --> 01:31:20.760
He's very clever with words.

1209
01:31:20.819 --> 01:31:22.800
He's brilliant with characterisation.

1210
01:31:22.859 --> 01:31:24.119
He doesn't like anyone.

1211
01:31:24.180 --> 01:31:27.420
He hates everyone and everything.

1212
01:31:27.479 --> 01:31:29.520
You know, he's all my favourite things.

1213
01:31:29.579 --> 01:31:30.600
He's a column.

1214
01:31:31.079 --> 01:31:33.060
I think he's so great.

1215
01:31:33.119 --> 01:31:40.560
And you remember we did the pert we retrospective and I was asked my top 3 stories and it was just all of the Bob Holmes stories.

1216
01:31:40.619 --> 01:31:42.659
He's such an accomplished writer.

1217
01:31:42.720 --> 01:31:47.100
And the uptick in quality between robot and arc in space.

1218
01:31:47.159 --> 01:31:50.760
I don't think has ever been equalled in the shows history.

1219
01:31:50.819 --> 01:31:54.659
Much as I love robot, Arc in Space just takes it to a whole new level.

1220
01:31:54.720 --> 01:31:57.840
And he is so incredibly good.

1221
01:31:57.899 --> 01:32:03.300
But absolutely understandably polarising and cynical and terrible in many ways.

1222
01:32:03.600 --> 01:32:05.460
It's fantastic.

1223
01:32:05.520 --> 01:32:07.140
And he's also villain.

1224
01:32:07.199 --> 01:32:08.699
But he's also a hero.

1225
01:32:08.760 --> 01:32:11.279
You know, I'm right with you there, Nathan.

1226
01:32:11.340 --> 01:32:14.039
No, I think he's one of the best riders ever. written for the show.

1227
01:32:14.100 --> 01:32:18.300
And the number of times he starts a season and reboots the show. incredible.

1228
01:32:18.420 --> 01:32:25.199
What I find so amazing about him is for Tom's 1st 4 seasons.

1229
01:32:25.739 --> 01:32:28.439
Actually, even the key to time season.

1230
01:32:28.500 --> 01:32:32.699
He steps in and writes at least one script that was meant to be another writer.

1231
01:32:32.760 --> 01:32:48.539
The Ark in Space, Pyramids of Mars, Talons of Wang Chiang, the Sunmakers, wasn't meant to be written by another writer, but Bob stepped in because they had a deficiency of scripts and Power of Kroll, was a replacement script.

1232
01:32:48.600 --> 01:32:52.079
So, you know, for each of those 5 years.

1233
01:32:52.140 --> 01:33:11.100
And it's a bit hard to say, but because he's no longer with us, and of course, around the time he passed away in the mid 80s was when Doctor Who magazine started doing all these really in-depth interviews, you know, so they did have some interviews with him, but he never seemed to complain about that.

1234
01:33:11.159 --> 01:33:14.220
It just like, nope, we've got to have that 4 episodes.

1235
01:33:14.279 --> 01:33:15.180
I'll do it.

1236
01:33:15.239 --> 01:33:18.659
You know, we've already discussed the story with the writer, so I'll take some of the ideas.

1237
01:33:18.720 --> 01:33:23.819
So, you know, the arc in space was drastically different from what John Lucarate was planning, but still in the same setting.

1238
01:33:23.880 --> 01:33:25.920
Get to Talons of Wang Chiang.

1239
01:33:25.979 --> 01:33:31.920
It's almost completely different from Diffo from the future, which was eventually adapted very well by Big Finish.

1240
01:33:31.979 --> 01:33:34.560
That one was either adapted by John Dorney or Johnny Morris.

1241
01:33:34.619 --> 01:33:36.720
I can't remember who, but really, really good.

1242
01:33:36.779 --> 01:33:39.359
But, yeah, I mean, I have to agree.

1243
01:33:39.779 --> 01:33:52.380
That the way he presents the show is not always to my taste, but the scripts he writes himself. are among some of my favourites.

1244
01:33:52.439 --> 01:33:57.840
The Arkin space is held up quite rightly as an archetypal classic.

1245
01:33:58.140 --> 01:33:59.760
It still works.

1246
01:33:59.819 --> 01:34:00.600
Still works.

1247
01:34:01.380 --> 01:34:04.560
Richard, anything to add on that?

1248
01:34:04.619 --> 01:34:11.220
I'm trying to look up the old story titles to just go back and remember it all because there's so much richness in it.

1249
01:34:11.699 --> 01:34:34.079
I, I think, again, it's the combination of all of the things in that Holmes had so had too many ideas, so many ideas that he didn't get them all done in the time that he was there, and then when he, then he left, he was just left with the jaded flavours, which is sometimes, just like when you're deglazing the pan, at the chewiest and bitterest and best that are left.

1250
01:34:34.140 --> 01:34:43.859
So he's even 2 doctors, or you could say mysterious planet, there's still so much unctuous biting bitterness in that that you can still say, yeah, there's still good stuff in there.

1251
01:34:43.920 --> 01:34:45.119
Okay.

1252
01:34:45.180 --> 01:34:46.739
One to watch.

1253
01:34:46.800 --> 01:34:48.479
One to watch.

1254
01:34:48.539 --> 01:34:49.979
Androids of Tyron.

1255
01:34:50.039 --> 01:34:55.739
Well, even though that's my favourite, I'm not, I'm not going to suggest that just because it is so atypical.

1256
01:34:55.800 --> 01:34:58.800
I would actually say.

1257
01:34:59.460 --> 01:35:01.619
No, actually, come back to me.

1258
01:35:01.680 --> 01:35:03.359
It's too hard. too hard right now.

1259
01:35:03.420 --> 01:35:04.920
Seeds of Doom.

1260
01:35:04.979 --> 01:35:05.760
City of death.

1261
01:35:05.819 --> 01:35:07.859
I was going to say Seeds of Doom as well.

1262
01:35:07.920 --> 01:35:10.739
You know, because it's their 2 movies.

1263
01:35:10.859 --> 01:35:12.180
That would also be my movie choice.

1264
01:35:12.300 --> 01:35:17.220
But it's not a lovely story and it's pretty awful to Sarah, but it's just so interesting.

1265
01:35:17.279 --> 01:35:18.600
It's got Harrison Chase.

1266
01:35:18.720 --> 01:35:20.880
Actually, I know what I would say.

1267
01:35:20.939 --> 01:35:21.840
Robots of death.

1268
01:35:21.899 --> 01:35:22.319
Yeah.

1269
01:35:22.319 --> 01:35:23.279
Watch the robot.

1270
01:35:23.340 --> 01:35:24.600
Although it's turned it up.

1271
01:35:24.600 --> 01:35:26.579
So we've seen?

1272
01:35:26.880 --> 01:35:27.119
Okay.

1273
01:35:27.180 --> 01:35:28.439
One to avoid.

1274
01:35:28.500 --> 01:35:29.699
Underworld.

1275
01:35:30.479 --> 01:35:32.279
Power of Kroll.

1276
01:35:32.640 --> 01:35:34.979
I love power of crawl.

1277
01:35:35.039 --> 01:35:35.699
I do too.

1278
01:35:35.760 --> 01:35:37.380
Armageddon factor.

1279
01:35:37.439 --> 01:35:40.140
Yeah, except for the Mary 10 bits, yes.

1280
01:35:40.199 --> 01:35:42.180
Yeah, I've got to say I agree with you.

1281
01:35:42.239 --> 01:35:45.600
I'd like to throw something else in, but crunch it, Armageddon.

1282
01:35:45.659 --> 01:35:50.460
Okay, so it's Tom Baker, and it's a movie.

1283
01:35:51.119 --> 01:35:53.279
And you've got to pick something.

1284
01:35:53.340 --> 01:35:55.680
I can't say Doctor Who meets Scratch Man.

1285
01:35:55.800 --> 01:35:56.579
No, you can't.

1286
01:35:56.640 --> 01:35:58.319
No, I want to.

1287
01:35:58.319 --> 01:35:59.340
Cricket man.

1288
01:35:59.399 --> 01:36:00.720
Well, James Goss is, so why not?

1289
01:36:00.779 --> 01:36:07.079
Okay, Doctor Who, Tom Baker, movie...

1290
01:36:07.079 --> 01:36:09.359
I would say the invasion of time is a movie.

1291
01:36:09.779 --> 01:36:16.920
Again, it's another very word-perily script that would benefit from actually being able to see some of the things that were happening.

1292
01:36:17.039 --> 01:36:17.579
Yeah.

1293
01:36:17.640 --> 01:36:27.420
And, you know, somehow actually foreshadowing the Santarans have turned up rather than just getting to write episode 5 at 5 AM on Saturday morning and going, and then there's some Santarans game.

1294
01:36:27.600 --> 01:36:28.979
Wow.

1295
01:36:29.039 --> 01:36:31.439
Look, I was going to say arc in space.

1296
01:36:31.560 --> 01:36:33.359
That's what I'm going to say too.

1297
01:36:33.420 --> 01:36:36.840
But my other one is Doctor Who and the key to time.

1298
01:36:39.060 --> 01:36:41.640
That would actually really, really work.

1299
01:36:41.699 --> 01:36:43.260
My movie is City of Death.

1300
01:36:43.619 --> 01:36:51.119
And my avoid would actually have to be Brain of Morbius because it's actually just a say word story.

1301
01:36:51.180 --> 01:36:55.020
Oh, the deadly necessity, if I'm really happy, but underworld.

1302
01:36:55.079 --> 01:36:58.619
No one said Megloss, which is totally alien.

1303
01:36:58.619 --> 01:36:59.520
Alien.

1304
01:36:59.579 --> 01:37:02.220
It basically is remade as a movie.

1305
01:37:02.279 --> 01:37:10.439
All right, now it's time for the John Wheevee's dilavatory or the John Pertwee era of the show.

1306
01:37:39.239 --> 01:37:41.460
So...

1307
01:37:41.460 --> 01:37:43.739
Maybe I'll start.

1308
01:37:43.800 --> 01:37:49.199
I actually rediscovered him after the vitriol in the 90s where his whole era was just taken apart.

1309
01:37:49.260 --> 01:37:53.039
And you can't watch it the same as I think from Tom Onwards.

1310
01:37:53.100 --> 01:37:58.079
To me, these are discoveries that I've made, that his 6 partners you cannot watch in one hit.

1311
01:37:58.140 --> 01:37:59.699
You have to watch a couple.

1312
01:37:59.760 --> 01:38:02.640
You have to watch like 2 episodes and that's it.

1313
01:38:02.760 --> 01:38:05.159
Because it wasn't made for DVD.

1314
01:38:05.279 --> 01:38:07.859
I bid Planet of the Tediums.

1315
01:38:08.039 --> 01:38:15.180
And even, I think the 1st 3 years, generally, it's like it is different from the last two.

1316
01:38:15.239 --> 01:38:18.600
I think it, television begins to change.

1317
01:38:18.659 --> 01:38:20.760
I think it begins to get a bit more pacier.

1318
01:38:20.819 --> 01:38:26.640
I think there are 3 John Pertweis in the era, much like there are 3 Peter Capaldis.

1319
01:38:26.699 --> 01:38:40.380
Like there is his 1st season and a few stories and then Colleen Space sort of changes to the end of Time Monster, and then there's the last two, where he's much more cuddly and fluffier again, and the last season has the best opening credits in original series.

1320
01:38:40.380 --> 01:38:40.619
Who?

1321
01:38:40.680 --> 01:38:40.979
Yes.

1322
01:38:40.979 --> 01:38:43.859
That's what I've got out of this era.

1323
01:38:43.920 --> 01:38:45.359
I have to agree with you.

1324
01:38:45.420 --> 01:38:49.800
I think that the character does actually evolve and change over time.

1325
01:38:49.800 --> 01:39:00.239
And I know that sometimes we say uncharitably it's because John retires from acting, but frankly, seeing him in interviews as himself.

1326
01:39:00.600 --> 01:39:07.140
His later doctor is still a very restrained performance compared to John Pertwe, the man.

1327
01:39:07.560 --> 01:39:19.739
And I do think that he gives consideration to the fact that, okay, if the doctor's been on earth for a few years, eventually he will soften to the people around him and soften to his fate.

1328
01:39:19.800 --> 01:39:25.319
And, you know, if you think about it in a realistic term, which I don't think anyone on the show was seriously doing, you know.

1329
01:39:25.380 --> 01:39:34.319
But when you have been wandering time and space and you're suddenly exiled to one planet, it is a shock and you will be just annoyed with everyone around you. find it tiresome, right?

1330
01:39:34.739 --> 01:39:36.659
Very tiresome.

1331
01:39:36.720 --> 01:39:48.300
You know, right from his 1st story where he tries to escape in the TARDIS and when the brigadier catches him, he just sits down dejectedly on a stool and says, I couldn't stand the thought of being in one planet at one time.

1332
01:39:48.359 --> 01:39:51.060
Naughty new to public schoolboy, Russell.

1333
01:39:51.119 --> 01:40:00.779
It shows you like later on, even down into the Green Death, where the brigadier saying, but there's a green corpse and the doctor's just saying, no, no, no.

1334
01:40:00.840 --> 01:40:03.119
It shows you how much of that is a game between them.

1335
01:40:03.239 --> 01:40:17.520
When the real 3rd doctor is actually this figure who is really sad. that he can't travel anymore, but also is the figure that when his best friend is upset, he'll tell a very personal story from his childhood.

1336
01:40:17.579 --> 01:40:18.659
Or about him a bit.

1337
01:40:18.720 --> 01:40:20.340
Tabi having a lovely lunch.

1338
01:40:20.579 --> 01:40:24.239
You see, I've never understood why that moment with Sir Tubby.

1339
01:40:24.300 --> 01:40:27.840
I never understood why people point to that and say, oh, see, he is establishment.

1340
01:40:27.899 --> 01:40:30.119
It's like, no, he's lying through his bloody teeth.

1341
01:40:30.180 --> 01:40:34.500
Well, that's what I've always seen that scene as because...

1342
01:40:34.500 --> 01:40:38.579
I think it's a bit of column A in column B. I don't think Persewe's playing it like that.

1343
01:40:38.640 --> 01:40:39.539
Oh okay.

1344
01:40:39.600 --> 01:40:45.840
That's that's kind of what I always get, because when he says, rotten sort of lot digging into your department tubby.

1345
01:40:45.899 --> 01:40:48.479
He's just kind of giving him this glance like, is he buying this?

1346
01:40:48.539 --> 01:40:52.199
No, I think that's written to be a lie, but not played.

1347
01:40:52.260 --> 01:40:53.640
Oh, okay.

1348
01:40:53.699 --> 01:40:56.760
Although again, the great dissembler, the doctor has been called many things.

1349
01:40:56.819 --> 01:40:57.840
Yes, that's true.

1350
01:40:57.899 --> 01:40:58.560
That's true.

1351
01:40:58.619 --> 01:40:59.159
Who's to say?

1352
01:40:59.220 --> 01:41:05.159
Nathan, what I discovered was that I like season 7 much less than I thought I would.

1353
01:41:05.220 --> 01:41:05.939
Stop it.

1354
01:41:06.000 --> 01:41:18.960
Yep, and I thought it was the grown up proper one, but I think the stories are too long, and I think they're all too similar, and I think that each story is worse than the last, and I wouldn't have said that before.

1355
01:41:19.020 --> 01:41:21.600
I had watched it for the podcast.

1356
01:41:21.659 --> 01:41:31.079
I think that season 11, on the other hand, maybe Monster of Paladine accepted, is much better than I thought it was.

1357
01:41:31.140 --> 01:41:37.380
And the reason that I like this era is that it has a large regular cast.

1358
01:41:37.380 --> 01:41:51.659
And I think that Doctor Who as a show has a problem in that, uh, it's sort of a weird anthology show in a sense, uh, where we're in a different place, each story, and we don't get to know anyone.

1359
01:41:51.659 --> 01:41:57.180
And I think that there's something terribly sweet and comforting about the doctor having a bunch of friends.

1360
01:41:57.239 --> 01:42:07.680
It's one of the reasons that the Chibnall casting announcement that was made this week, as we record, makes me a bit vomit.

1361
01:42:07.739 --> 01:42:12.060
Oh, makes me want to...

1362
01:42:12.119 --> 01:42:13.079
No, no, no.

1363
01:42:13.140 --> 01:42:17.460
It excites me because I think Doctor Who works with a regular cast that's bigger than 2 people.

1364
01:42:17.520 --> 01:42:23.039
One of the things I dislike about the Colin Baker era is that Colin Baker's doctor has no friends.

1365
01:42:23.100 --> 01:42:25.859
He just knows.

1366
01:42:25.859 --> 01:42:27.060
Colin Baker's doctor.

1367
01:42:27.119 --> 01:42:29.340
No, no, I get it, but it's a good quote.

1368
01:42:29.399 --> 01:42:34.619
You know, whereas it's such a modern internet thing to say too, isn't it?

1369
01:42:34.739 --> 01:42:36.300
no friends.

1370
01:42:36.359 --> 01:42:45.300
But I like it between friends on Facebook and most of them are... one of my that's one of my heroes in this era is that you've got the brigadier.

1371
01:42:45.359 --> 01:42:58.859
Benton Yates. and then whether it be Joe or Sarah or Liz, you've got that cast and you've also got Terrence Dix and Barry Letts.

1372
01:42:58.920 --> 01:43:03.899
Like, they are, that collective group aren't my heroes of this era.

1373
01:43:03.960 --> 01:43:09.300
I mean, the longest period of time that we'd had to date with the same creative team.

1374
01:43:09.300 --> 01:43:15.840
It's really, yeah, it's the greatest period of stability in the classic era. that a good thing?

1375
01:43:15.899 --> 01:43:19.140
Well, the weird thing is you would think it would stagnate.

1376
01:43:19.199 --> 01:43:27.659
Like, you know, we talked about with JNT, he wanted to move on and he recognised that he should move on and he wasn't able to, and that led to stagnation.

1377
01:43:27.720 --> 01:43:37.560
Whereas here, I'm going to single out one particular person from that group, and that is Katie Manning, because as much as the doctor's character grows.

1378
01:43:37.619 --> 01:43:42.479
I think part of it is pertly settling into the role and feeling comfortable.

1379
01:43:42.539 --> 01:43:53.159
I think it's still a conscious acting choice, but the actor whose performance changes and character grows over their time, is Katie Manning as Joe Grant.

1380
01:43:53.220 --> 01:43:58.319
You know, she comes in as this ingenue, who doesn't really know what her role is.

1381
01:43:58.380 --> 01:44:01.380
You know, she's just been put there in a case of nepotism.

1382
01:44:01.680 --> 01:44:08.100
And wants to prove herself not only to the doctor, but also to herself.

1383
01:44:08.159 --> 01:44:09.600
And as story...

1384
01:44:09.600 --> 01:44:11.220
This group editor and to the director.

1385
01:44:11.279 --> 01:44:16.439
Well, you know, I mean, she is the casual viewer, but she's also Dixon Lett's idea of what girls should be.

1386
01:44:16.500 --> 01:44:17.100
Yeah.

1387
01:44:17.100 --> 01:44:21.899
So I always had an issue with the casting of that or the concept of the role after Liz Shaw.

1388
01:44:21.960 --> 01:44:24.239
She's my hero of the entire era.

1389
01:44:24.899 --> 01:44:29.460
And she comes in and is immediately super competent.

1390
01:44:29.520 --> 01:44:31.380
Yeah, you know, yeah.

1391
01:44:31.920 --> 01:44:33.239
Yeah, yeah, that 1st story.

1392
01:44:33.300 --> 01:44:39.180
She investigates all the plastic factories, she orders parts for the doctor.

1393
01:44:39.239 --> 01:44:42.359
She is charming and on top of things.

1394
01:44:42.420 --> 01:44:44.640
She is completely unflappable.

1395
01:44:44.699 --> 01:44:54.180
She is really, really very different from the way that Dix characterises her role and she humanises the doctor.

1396
01:44:54.479 --> 01:44:56.819
Okay, so we're talking about 2 things here.

1397
01:44:56.880 --> 01:44:59.880
We're talking about Katie's performance. but also the way she's written.

1398
01:44:59.939 --> 01:45:01.739
I don't think she's written as an idiot at all.

1399
01:45:01.800 --> 01:45:04.739
But I am going to disagree with you something there.

1400
01:45:04.800 --> 01:45:15.659
I think part of the appeal for her character in the early stories is her incompetence because, okay, yeah, she goes off investigating, knocks over a crate and tries to blow everyone up as a result, you know?

1401
01:45:15.720 --> 01:45:28.380
But she knocks over a crate and stands up and sort of goes, oops, she's incompetent, but confident, which I think is important and confident in sort of saying, oh, yeah, I screwed that up.

1402
01:45:28.439 --> 01:45:28.800
That was me.

1403
01:45:28.859 --> 01:45:35.760
Actually, I was about to say something about Star Trek discovery, but I'm not going to because 2 of us here haven't seen it, but Nathan knows what I was going to say.

1404
01:45:35.819 --> 01:45:36.899
Yes.

1405
01:45:36.960 --> 01:45:39.720
And dear listeners, I think you know what I'm going to say as well.

1406
01:45:39.779 --> 01:45:48.119
But as the show goes on, she becomes more competent and we get repeated scenes.

1407
01:45:48.180 --> 01:45:49.979
So in terror of the autons.

1408
01:45:50.100 --> 01:45:52.380
She rescues the doctor by breaking a vase over someone's head.

1409
01:45:52.439 --> 01:45:55.739
In the sea devils, she rescues the doctor without attacking anyone.

1410
01:45:55.800 --> 01:46:00.420
Yeah, I think she clobbers one guard, but after that, it's like getting, get out, get the key.

1411
01:46:00.539 --> 01:46:06.000
In cause of axis, she has a go at chin and, you know, chin's an enemy.

1412
01:46:06.060 --> 01:46:14.159
So you expect the characters to have a go at the enemy, but it takes real strength then in the Green Death to turn around and say no to the brigadier.

1413
01:46:14.159 --> 01:46:16.199
There are some great moments in that story.

1414
01:46:16.260 --> 01:46:19.319
Yeah, I agree with everything you're saying, Brendan.

1415
01:46:19.380 --> 01:46:22.560
And as an arc, it defines the pertle era.

1416
01:46:22.619 --> 01:46:28.739
I just feel that the character was brought in too soon and I regretted the loss of so much of season 7's establishment.

1417
01:46:28.800 --> 01:46:34.439
Well, you know, Caroline John was so fantastic and such a great...

1418
01:46:34.500 --> 01:46:37.560
Whereas Katie is a 60s girl in the 70s.

1419
01:46:37.619 --> 01:46:47.640
And she's also, there's the disingenuousness and the vulnerability, but there's that whole sexual thing of being exactly what the dads want and it really still bothers me.

1420
01:46:47.699 --> 01:46:54.359
But she has to dumb down underplay and be incompetent because a competent woman, even though it's the 70s.

1421
01:46:54.359 --> 01:47:02.279
And we have Margaret Mead, Margaret Burkewiter, actually figures from the 50s, but we have Steinham, we have Greer, we have all the women, great women.

1422
01:47:02.340 --> 01:47:04.380
We've already talked about in a 100 other ones.

1423
01:47:04.439 --> 01:47:13.619
And then we've also having to please men in this production company who have said we wanted a little girl that we actually felt like, you know, being with.

1424
01:47:13.680 --> 01:47:17.399
And we know what they meant when they said that...

1425
01:47:17.460 --> 01:47:18.420
It's all of them.

1426
01:47:18.479 --> 01:47:20.159
But she has such charm.

1427
01:47:20.220 --> 01:47:21.239
She does.

1428
01:47:21.300 --> 01:47:22.079
She's so good.

1429
01:47:22.140 --> 01:47:34.140
And I think it's because Katie goes in and whether it's consciously or unconsciously kind of looks at the character and goes, oh, okay, so you want me to be this, this, this thing that just stands over there and screams, no, thank you.

1430
01:47:34.199 --> 01:47:42.000
I'm going to sacrifice myself to the god to save the earth, and then I'm going to climb out on this citadel in my high heels, and then just to finish off.

1431
01:47:42.060 --> 01:47:45.239
I'm going to tell Omega where he can shove his gel guards.

1432
01:47:45.300 --> 01:47:49.680
Brendan's done all of that Not just into privacy of his own podcast.

1433
01:47:49.800 --> 01:47:51.060
I agree.

1434
01:47:51.060 --> 01:47:52.800
In heels and backwards.

1435
01:47:53.039 --> 01:47:54.659
Un green.

1436
01:47:54.720 --> 01:47:56.340
Like, she is an unsung hero.

1437
01:47:56.399 --> 01:47:59.520
I also think that Liz Shaw is also in her own way.

1438
01:47:59.579 --> 01:48:05.220
Yes, I would argue that Katie is actually the ambassadress for their 1st part of the 70s now.

1439
01:48:05.279 --> 01:48:07.739
She is, I don't know that she's on sign.

1440
01:48:07.800 --> 01:48:13.500
And now that she's gone back to the UK, fandom have been wanting her back there for years, and she is very much celebrated.

1441
01:48:13.560 --> 01:48:17.340
Now, also in the audios with Tim Trelaw on Big Finish.

1442
01:48:17.399 --> 01:48:18.899
She is the absolute linchpin.

1443
01:48:18.960 --> 01:48:26.699
And my recommendation for this area, if we were doing those, we'd go and listen to those new 3rd doctor adventures with Katie and Tim Trolloy.

1444
01:48:26.760 --> 01:48:27.600
They're just gorgeous.

1445
01:48:27.659 --> 01:48:33.180
And it's exactly who Joe, you're all saying you felt to be, well, now she actually is in these stories.

1446
01:48:33.300 --> 01:48:41.279
I honestly think too, riding around when she was written out, it was the right time. like she going to marry or whatever happened.

1447
01:48:41.340 --> 01:48:42.720
Like, it was the right decision.

1448
01:48:42.720 --> 01:48:45.720
And then everybody moving on at the right time.

1449
01:48:45.779 --> 01:48:51.000
In the past, I thought, oh, people outstayed there welcome and maybe John did too long, but I don't think so.

1450
01:48:51.060 --> 01:48:51.720
Did he?

1451
01:48:51.720 --> 01:48:52.859
I don't think so anymore.

1452
01:48:52.920 --> 01:48:57.420
I think, I think it's, it is a good amount of time for all of them.

1453
01:48:57.479 --> 01:48:59.100
And in that last season, please, yes.

1454
01:48:59.159 --> 01:49:03.060
They do have a new character in Sarah Jane Smith, and I really like Liz in that season.

1455
01:49:03.119 --> 01:49:07.319
It's completely different, Prashawn or whatever you want to say it.

1456
01:49:07.380 --> 01:49:08.340
She's sterner, isn't she?

1457
01:49:08.399 --> 01:49:09.000
Yeah, yeah.

1458
01:49:09.000 --> 01:49:15.420
But I love the character in there and it gives an oomph to that final push before they all move on.

1459
01:49:15.479 --> 01:49:18.060
Would you have liked him to stay another year, Todd?

1460
01:49:18.180 --> 01:49:19.859
No, I don't think you should have. don't think so?

1461
01:49:19.920 --> 01:49:20.399
I agree.

1462
01:49:20.460 --> 01:49:30.779
My gut feeling, sorry, just before we move on. is that, and it's my real problem with this new era of Doctor Who, I'm just washing. changing the whites too often is too many doctors.

1463
01:49:30.840 --> 01:49:32.399
I'm sick of this.

1464
01:49:32.460 --> 01:49:33.060
I want...

1465
01:49:33.119 --> 01:49:35.039
I just, please just stay around, one of you.

1466
01:49:37.199 --> 01:49:39.060
Maybe fatigue.

1467
01:49:39.119 --> 01:49:40.560
Maybe with less episodes?

1468
01:49:40.619 --> 01:49:42.899
Maybe, maybe, maybe.

1469
01:49:42.960 --> 01:49:47.760
But the 3 season doctor thing worked in the 60s when you've got a lot of stories.

1470
01:49:47.819 --> 01:49:48.600
Yes.

1471
01:49:48.600 --> 01:49:52.260
And the 60s was moving at a different pace for viewers anyway.

1472
01:49:52.319 --> 01:49:54.600
Okay, we've talked about a lot of stuff that we like.

1473
01:49:54.659 --> 01:49:59.279
Is there any villain in this era?

1474
01:49:59.340 --> 01:50:01.140
I've joined...

1475
01:50:02.220 --> 01:50:05.279
Mine would be Barry Letts' CSO.

1476
01:50:05.699 --> 01:50:12.960
But he's pushing the envelope with everything, which is great, and you wouldn't have what we have now if people like him didn't do that.

1477
01:50:13.020 --> 01:50:14.159
But I don't know.

1478
01:50:14.279 --> 01:50:16.380
I think there's some ropey riding.

1479
01:50:16.439 --> 01:50:23.880
Uh, and I think uh, the season finales tend to be poorly written and I think Bob Baker and Dave Martin's stories tend to be poorly written.

1480
01:50:24.000 --> 01:50:29.880
But there's just a sort of charm, and there's nothing that really craters horribly.

1481
01:50:29.939 --> 01:50:33.720
Like maybe the worst story is the time monster.

1482
01:50:33.779 --> 01:50:36.720
Not funny, you should say, but...

1483
01:50:36.779 --> 01:50:40.500
But the Time Monster is not universally loved, but God, it's fun.

1484
01:50:40.979 --> 01:50:43.199
The Time Monster is my fault.

1485
01:50:43.260 --> 01:50:48.300
I was going to say, is my favourite comedy in almost after City of Death in Doctor Who.

1486
01:50:48.359 --> 01:50:51.119
It's the only one after City of Death that I laugh all the way through.

1487
01:50:51.180 --> 01:50:54.659
There are some great moments It's very, very funny and mischarged.

1488
01:50:54.720 --> 01:51:05.640
My thing, just because, you know, I would say if, well, it's in my head, the monster of this period is simply what we were saying before, production demands and the way that the show was now being produced.

1489
01:51:05.699 --> 01:51:08.760
And we, you've already said it, stories don't need to be 6 or 7 episodes.

1490
01:51:08.819 --> 01:51:14.699
I would have liked, put that money in just, but let's just have a 10 episode season.

1491
01:51:14.760 --> 01:51:16.680
We don't need this many.

1492
01:51:16.739 --> 01:51:17.819
We've got 4 stories.

1493
01:51:17.880 --> 01:51:20.340
Let's just make 12 episodes.

1494
01:51:20.399 --> 01:51:21.239
That would have been fine.

1495
01:51:21.300 --> 01:51:23.939
And how interesting they would have been cut down.

1496
01:51:24.000 --> 01:51:25.920
We would have had real value, real quality.

1497
01:51:26.279 --> 01:51:31.920
Do you really have to fill the screen, spend the same amount of money and just show reruns.

1498
01:51:31.979 --> 01:51:32.579
I would have been fine.

1499
01:51:32.760 --> 01:51:34.800
Roger Delgado.

1500
01:51:34.859 --> 01:51:35.939
Yes.

1501
01:51:36.000 --> 01:51:39.060
We can't ignore him.

1502
01:51:39.119 --> 01:51:40.920
I think his contribution is immense.

1503
01:51:40.979 --> 01:51:41.819
I really like him.

1504
01:51:42.000 --> 01:52:01.800
The fact that in his 1st season, he is in every story, and and yet, by the end of the Damon's, you still find him charming and compelling to watch, looking at it as an adult, it's like, yeah, this is master fever, but God, it's not Roger's fault. happy to watch Roger every week.

1505
01:52:01.859 --> 01:52:13.020
And, you know, it's it's something that was very successfully emulated by Stephen Moffat in this year's season of Doctor Who with Missy, not in every single episode.

1506
01:52:13.079 --> 01:52:24.659
And again, not just as, oh, I'm in a scene in this episode, actually playing a role in several plots throughout the season, either through giving advice or through taking action.

1507
01:52:24.899 --> 01:52:38.460
And there's a reason that I think that she is the finest actor to play the role since Delgado in that both she and Delgado get the thing about them having been friends.

1508
01:52:38.460 --> 01:52:40.560
And that very clearly comes across.

1509
01:52:40.560 --> 01:52:47.699
And it's amazing when you consider that John did feel a bit threatened by having such a good actor working opposite him.

1510
01:52:47.760 --> 01:52:53.640
But that was solved by the fact that Roger Delgado was very happy. fact, Michelle Gomez all the time.

1511
01:52:53.819 --> 01:52:55.500
It did hurt.

1512
01:52:55.560 --> 01:52:58.079
I've pulled off my Michelle Gomez mask now.

1513
01:52:58.140 --> 01:53:00.180
But boy, she is good.

1514
01:53:00.239 --> 01:53:00.960
She is good.

1515
01:53:01.020 --> 01:53:03.899
I'd never thought of that before, but you're right.

1516
01:53:03.960 --> 01:53:05.640
They do play the same way.

1517
01:53:05.699 --> 01:53:06.539
Yeah.

1518
01:53:06.539 --> 01:53:07.859
And they...

1519
01:53:07.920 --> 01:53:10.319
There was a wonderful like digital...

1520
01:53:10.380 --> 01:53:11.159
Sounds rude, isn't?

1521
01:53:11.279 --> 01:53:23.520
There was a wonderful digital trailer a few weeks before season 9, which announced Michelle Gomez was going to be back in Magician's Apprentice, and she's reading a book on set called How to Be Evil.

1522
01:53:23.520 --> 01:53:25.739
Oh, you've caught me at it.

1523
01:53:25.800 --> 01:53:29.760
And as she closes the book, Roger Delgado's picture is on the back of it.

1524
01:53:29.819 --> 01:53:32.699
No, it's rather fabulous.

1525
01:53:32.760 --> 01:53:37.859
But, you know, with Nathan's got the full set.

1526
01:53:37.859 --> 01:53:56.939
With Anthony Ainley's performance, and I'm not going to criticise Eric Roberts on this because it's hard to judge, but even with John Sims performance, you never really get the strong impression that these 2 used to be friends with John Sim, you know, you get the bit where he's dying and David Tennant's cradling him, but it's like, oh, I wanted the buildup to that.

1527
01:53:57.000 --> 01:54:06.840
And straight away in terror of the autons, when the master's holding a gun on the doctor in his lab, you do get the impression that these 2 have a long history.

1528
01:54:06.899 --> 01:54:10.920
And I don't know if John and Roger had known each other beforehand.

1529
01:54:10.979 --> 01:54:12.180
I know they knew of each other.

1530
01:54:12.239 --> 01:54:15.239
They were intrigued to be working together, but I don't know if they ever...

1531
01:54:15.239 --> 01:54:21.180
I think New Grade had kept them in the same stable ITC, you know, mucking them out, occasionally.

1532
01:54:21.239 --> 01:54:28.079
But yeah, and God, Roger's loss, obviously it is an incredible loss to all the cast.

1533
01:54:28.140 --> 01:54:38.579
There was a fan consensus that the reason that John season last season wasn't good was because he was missing Katie Manning, and I do agree that John is more subdued in that last season.

1534
01:54:38.640 --> 01:54:41.579
I don't think it's because of Katie's departure.

1535
01:54:41.640 --> 01:54:43.619
I think it's because of Roger's death.

1536
01:54:43.680 --> 01:54:45.899
And also halfway through the season.

1537
01:54:45.960 --> 01:54:52.859
He decides not to go on anymore, which, yes, is partially due to the fact that Nick and the unit boys were being phased out.

1538
01:54:52.920 --> 01:54:54.359
Roger was gone, Katie was gone.

1539
01:54:54.420 --> 01:54:56.100
He was still enjoying working with Liz.

1540
01:54:56.100 --> 01:55:06.300
It's the thing of he's doing a job he enjoys, but at the same time, a lot of the fun has gone out of it because the people he was having fun with have gone.

1541
01:55:06.420 --> 01:55:08.880
So he asked for a rise and when he didn't get it, he just said, oh, okay.

1542
01:55:08.939 --> 01:55:18.539
I think we can see it the same way that Patrick McNee used to say, I'll ask for a ridiculous amount of money, and if they give it to me, oh, well, I'll stay, but I think everyone had really agreed it was time for changes across the board.

1543
01:55:18.960 --> 01:55:22.800
Yeah Before I ask my final 3 questions about the zero.

1544
01:55:22.859 --> 01:55:34.739
I also think Nick Courtney, the majority of his stories are obviously in this era, and he is an unsung hero in so many of those in his delivery and performance when the brigadier is written all over the place, and, you know, yeah.

1545
01:55:34.800 --> 01:55:37.979
I just wanted to say that we need to say something.

1546
01:55:37.979 --> 01:55:39.180
He needs to be mentioned.

1547
01:55:39.239 --> 01:55:39.659
He really does.

1548
01:55:39.720 --> 01:55:41.039
The brigadier.

1549
01:55:41.100 --> 01:55:46.979
I'm going to go over to another show which At this time had not yet been created, but Red Dwarf.

1550
01:55:47.039 --> 01:55:54.300
Red Dwarf, the reason Holly was written out after series 5 is Crichton had taken over the role of exposition.

1551
01:55:54.359 --> 01:55:58.680
The brigadier's role at the beginning of the Pertwee era is exposition.

1552
01:55:58.739 --> 01:56:03.539
He turns up and says, right, this is the mystery, doctor, you need to go off and investigate it.

1553
01:56:03.600 --> 01:56:10.079
And I think the fact that the brigadier is given so much character is the sheer force of Nicholas Courtney's will.

1554
01:56:10.140 --> 01:56:13.680
He's not just mother from the Avengers turning up in a strange location.

1555
01:56:13.739 --> 01:56:16.859
He'll come into a scene and doctor, this is the drama.

1556
01:56:16.920 --> 01:56:19.079
But he's like I'm not bloody leaving the scene.

1557
01:56:19.140 --> 01:56:20.039
This is my show.

1558
01:56:20.100 --> 01:56:21.479
This is my lab.

1559
01:56:21.539 --> 01:56:28.859
This is my rompers and I'm wearing them all year. very true And I think Nick is totally worthy of that.

1560
01:56:28.920 --> 01:56:30.000
The other 2 unit boys.

1561
01:56:30.060 --> 01:56:33.840
Look, I know they come in for criticism in various areas of fandom.

1562
01:56:33.899 --> 01:56:37.140
But when I was a kid, Captain Hot Pants was...

1563
01:56:37.979 --> 01:56:38.520
Which captain?

1564
01:56:38.579 --> 01:56:39.060
There are so many.

1565
01:56:39.119 --> 01:56:41.039
You felt safe with unit.

1566
01:56:41.100 --> 01:56:44.579
You felt safe with the brigadier and Sergeant Benton and Captain Yates.

1567
01:56:44.640 --> 01:56:47.039
You felt safe and you felt they would protect the doctor.

1568
01:56:47.100 --> 01:56:48.300
In that order.

1569
01:56:51.000 --> 01:56:53.640
All right, speaking of ordering things.

1570
01:56:53.699 --> 01:56:54.960
One to watch.

1571
01:56:58.020 --> 01:56:59.880
I'm going to go within Inferno.

1572
01:56:59.939 --> 01:57:02.279
I'm going to go with Spearhead from Space actually.

1573
01:57:02.340 --> 01:57:06.359
Definite thing Or Carnival of Monsters.

1574
01:57:06.479 --> 01:57:08.520
I knew you were going to say kind of all of monsters.

1575
01:57:08.579 --> 01:57:15.119
I would say my all-time favourite is a little boy simply because we saw the seasons over and over again and they're still all good, has to be final season.

1576
01:57:15.180 --> 01:57:17.340
I like it, doctor, feeling the death knell.

1577
01:57:17.399 --> 01:57:20.699
I do like the subdued quality after all the exuberance.

1578
01:57:20.760 --> 01:57:22.680
The end of the party can sometimes be the best.

1579
01:57:22.739 --> 01:57:25.500
So for me, it's probably death to the Daleks.

1580
01:57:25.560 --> 01:57:26.159
I just really love it.

1581
01:57:26.220 --> 01:57:27.479
Nice, me too.

1582
01:57:27.539 --> 01:57:29.220
Oh my god.

1583
01:57:29.279 --> 01:57:31.739
I want to say that's how it ends because I really love it.

1584
01:57:31.800 --> 01:57:32.760
It's so good isn't it?

1585
01:57:32.939 --> 01:57:34.739
The Green Death?

1586
01:57:34.800 --> 01:57:36.479
Yeah, yep, yep.

1587
01:57:36.479 --> 01:57:37.560
There's a lot in there.

1588
01:57:37.619 --> 01:57:38.579
There's a lot in there.

1589
01:57:38.640 --> 01:57:39.960
All right, one to avoid.

1590
01:57:40.020 --> 01:57:41.039
Colony in space.

1591
01:57:41.100 --> 01:57:42.000
Once for a peladin.

1592
01:57:42.060 --> 01:57:43.020
Monster of peladin.

1593
01:57:43.079 --> 01:57:46.920
That Dalek thing that goes for 7 years. planet a planet.

1594
01:57:46.920 --> 01:57:48.119
I can say that, Tom. hated it.

1595
01:57:48.180 --> 01:57:52.199
Oh, yes, I absolutely learned that as well.

1596
01:57:52.260 --> 01:57:55.439
That will also go in the bottomless pit with the monster pellon.

1597
01:57:55.500 --> 01:57:56.880
Terry, just a quick note.

1598
01:57:56.939 --> 01:57:58.800
Terry Nation actually gets my villain award.

1599
01:57:58.859 --> 01:58:00.479
Planet of the Daleks.

1600
01:58:00.539 --> 01:58:01.619
Now, I love Planet of the Daleks.

1601
01:58:01.680 --> 01:58:13.800
I love that it's the greatest hit, but if Terry Nation, if you're going to complain that they use the Daleks without your permission, when you get the opportunity to write a dialect script, you've got a bloody match day of the Daleks, mate, not just regurgitate everything. moving on.

1602
01:58:13.859 --> 01:58:15.359
Or write a news story.

1603
01:58:15.420 --> 01:58:16.680
Yes, no.

1604
01:58:16.680 --> 01:58:17.699
That's...

1605
01:58:17.699 --> 01:58:20.399
Yeah, Dylan, perfect. wonderful.

1606
01:58:20.460 --> 01:58:21.000
All right.

1607
01:58:21.060 --> 01:58:24.000
We're making a movie with John Perch week.

1608
01:58:24.060 --> 01:58:25.619
And which story is it going to be?

1609
01:58:25.680 --> 01:58:27.000
The time monster.

1610
01:58:27.060 --> 01:58:28.560
Yeah, I agree.

1611
01:58:28.619 --> 01:58:29.579
It would be hilarious.

1612
01:58:29.640 --> 01:58:30.960
Directed by Mel Brooks.

1613
01:58:31.020 --> 01:58:43.500
Well, I think, you know, if you're going to make a movie, you've got to take a story that sort of fails, that's ambitious, but kind of fails in some way, or that would benefit from some more money or another pass at the script.

1614
01:58:43.560 --> 01:58:48.539
And like Time Monster is so terrible, but so terribly enjoyable as well.

1615
01:58:48.600 --> 01:58:51.060
The other one would be invasion of the dinosaurs.

1616
01:58:51.119 --> 01:58:52.680
That was both very...

1617
01:58:52.739 --> 01:58:54.779
That was that was my nomination.

1618
01:58:54.840 --> 01:58:57.180
One of my considerations is invasion, the dinosaurs.

1619
01:58:57.239 --> 01:58:57.960
I have another.

1620
01:58:57.960 --> 01:59:02.100
It's called Frontier and Space, but it's the 12 part epic.

1621
01:59:02.159 --> 01:59:09.000
Yeah, where you actually have the earth stuff and there's something there and then the Daleks appear, boom, and you've got the rest of it.

1622
01:59:09.899 --> 01:59:13.020
Yeah, I was thinking the master's Dalek plan.

1623
01:59:13.079 --> 01:59:14.579
Good one.

1624
01:59:14.640 --> 01:59:14.880
Yep.

1625
01:59:14.939 --> 01:59:17.460
But I will say the mutants.

1626
01:59:17.520 --> 01:59:22.380
Because I think with a much tighter script, completely rewrite the script, Todd.

1627
01:59:22.439 --> 01:59:32.760
So it's not Bob Baker and Dave Martin's words, but the central idea about this race evolving it to wonderful sci-fi idea, but also it is a story about racism and apartheid.

1628
01:59:32.819 --> 01:59:35.520
And yeah, I think it has...

1629
01:59:35.520 --> 01:59:36.539
It comes down against them, right?

1630
01:59:36.600 --> 01:59:37.199
Yes.

1631
01:59:37.979 --> 01:59:40.140
Stubs and cotton in it.

1632
01:59:40.439 --> 01:59:50.579
Stubbs and Cotton are in it, played by John Boyega and that guy what plays Poe in Star Wars.

1633
01:59:50.640 --> 01:59:52.199
So good that we can't remember his game.

1634
01:59:52.319 --> 01:59:54.119
Oscar Isaac.

1635
01:59:54.239 --> 01:59:54.899
Oxerizer.

1636
01:59:54.960 --> 02:00:00.539
I couldn't remember if Oscar Isaac was him or Kylo Wren. but yeah, Oscar Eiser can and John Boyaker.

1637
02:00:00.600 --> 02:00:03.000
Are we making the films now or back in the time?

1638
02:00:03.060 --> 02:00:03.840
we're making them now.

1639
02:00:03.899 --> 02:00:05.819
They're making them now.

1640
02:00:05.880 --> 02:00:08.159
It's a time travel thing, so you can handing my book.

1641
02:00:08.159 --> 02:00:09.659
We're talking about the same cast.

1642
02:00:09.720 --> 02:00:28.680
Okay, we'd be having, because these are all about the time that they're made, and we've always said that Doctor Who talks about the very much the era in which it's produced, I would like John Frankenheimer to direct, and I would like Mike Hodgers to produce Mind of Evil, because Mike Hodges did the 1st get Carter, Frankenheimer did Manchurian candidate.

1643
02:00:28.739 --> 02:00:40.020
And it's a really fantastic, Cold War, lovely piece with SFL elements, and it really predicates what was happening with China and the Eastern Bloc and us.

1644
02:00:40.079 --> 02:00:41.399
And it was great in it.

1645
02:00:41.460 --> 02:00:42.300
He really is.

1646
02:00:42.359 --> 02:00:44.039
And so, and so is Pertley.

1647
02:00:44.100 --> 02:00:45.359
And the Kellum machine is just ridiculous.

1648
02:00:45.420 --> 02:00:46.500
I'd love to see it.

1649
02:00:46.560 --> 02:00:48.180
That'd be great. done on the screen.

1650
02:00:48.239 --> 02:00:49.979
That's a great, great show.

1651
02:00:50.039 --> 02:00:51.840
We didn't discuss your choice, which was inferno.

1652
02:00:51.899 --> 02:00:53.100
I think that's also a great trip.

1653
02:00:53.159 --> 02:00:54.000
I think it's really good.

1654
02:00:54.060 --> 02:00:58.560
Again, it's friend of the podcast, Kate Orman's all-time, probably favourite per week, probably.

1655
02:00:58.619 --> 02:01:01.800
It'd be nice if it was shorter, so I would go for that too.

1656
02:01:01.859 --> 02:01:02.699
Yeah, yeah.

1657
02:01:03.000 --> 02:01:07.979
I still think Planet of the Spiders is the most emotionally redolent one of this era.

1658
02:01:08.039 --> 02:01:09.479
It just feels so great.

1659
02:01:09.960 --> 02:01:12.300
Okay, moving on.

1660
02:01:42.359 --> 02:01:46.319
We're now back into the black and white era of the show, and it's the Patrick Trout era.

1661
02:01:46.380 --> 02:01:49.800
What do we have to say about the man, the era, the time?

1662
02:01:49.859 --> 02:02:00.899
He's still my favourite doctor. and, watching them in order, and my god, being able to watch ones which didn't exist in a watchable form 3 years ago.

1663
02:02:00.960 --> 02:02:03.840
We've had enemy of the world come back, web of fear.

1664
02:02:03.960 --> 02:02:07.920
Ice Warriors has been animated, Moonbase has been animated.

1665
02:02:07.979 --> 02:02:10.920
We've got a recon of underwater menace.

1666
02:02:10.979 --> 02:02:12.359
Power of the Dialects has been animated.

1667
02:02:12.420 --> 02:02:20.340
Suddenly from video where we had, I think, 7 Patrick Trout stories we could watch in some kind of full form and even then the invasion was missing 2 episodes.

1668
02:02:20.460 --> 02:02:25.560
We're up to 13 of 21 with the wheel in space now getting an official recon as well.

1669
02:02:25.619 --> 02:02:26.579
When what?

1670
02:02:26.640 --> 02:02:27.539
Did you not know about this?

1671
02:02:28.140 --> 02:02:43.560
For a time, it's going to be exclusive to the Brit box streaming service in the US because Brit box is experimenting with doing advanced recons, so some animation, but advanced recons, because Doctor Who's incredibly popular on their service, they want to be able to stream the whole series.

1672
02:02:43.619 --> 02:02:49.439
So it's not confirmed that they're going to do more after that, but Wheel in Space is a test case.

1673
02:02:49.500 --> 02:02:55.920
So we've gone from being able to see less than a 3rd of Trouton's era to being able to see 2 thirds of it.

1674
02:02:56.039 --> 02:03:00.539
And Patrick Troughton...

1675
02:03:00.720 --> 02:03:05.640
You said earlier, Nathan, Peter Davidson, best actor to play the doctor, I think it's Pat.

1676
02:03:05.699 --> 02:03:16.319
And I think it's Pat in particular because even more than John Pertwee, when you watch him in interviews, He's so different from his role as the doctor.

1677
02:03:16.380 --> 02:03:18.000
He's still magical to me.

1678
02:03:18.060 --> 02:03:32.399
He's a little bit dangerous and a little bit alien without overemphasising it, but the revelation for me, watching all through again, is the dear departed Deborah Watling.

1679
02:03:32.460 --> 02:03:53.520
And the fact that Victoria was not just a silly little screaming head on a stick, you know, she was scared a lot of the time because of her background, but is written and brilliantly performed as that pertly thing of being scared and doing what you have to do anyway and getting on with it.

1680
02:03:53.640 --> 02:04:04.199
And nothing is more evident than that than the wonderful moment in enemy of the world where she goes to backhand Pat across the face.

1681
02:04:04.260 --> 02:04:05.819
You know?

1682
02:04:05.880 --> 02:04:08.220
And that in a way comes out of nowhere.

1683
02:04:08.340 --> 02:04:21.359
And it reminds me of that note that was given for Lola McGovern back in 1963 Barbara's forerunner that it was the note of, but sometimes capable of timid rabbit courage.

1684
02:04:21.420 --> 02:04:22.859
And that's Victoria.

1685
02:04:22.920 --> 02:04:27.539
You know, she's very, very afraid, but when her back is against the wall, she will lash out.

1686
02:04:27.600 --> 02:04:29.880
She will speak her mind and what have you.

1687
02:04:29.939 --> 02:04:34.619
I think in a lot of scripts she was poorly served, but Deborah never poorly served us.

1688
02:04:35.399 --> 02:04:42.420
Wow, well, my revelations are that I think Patrick is the best actor have played the doctor.

1689
02:04:42.479 --> 02:04:44.819
He is mesmerising to watch.

1690
02:04:46.199 --> 02:04:56.340
Along with that, what you've just had to say about Deborah Watting in the character, Victoria, certainly getting those episodes back in that moment when she goes to bitch slap the doctor, it's fantastic.

1691
02:04:56.399 --> 02:05:08.579
And I will now say that Victoria is my least favourite companion of the era and I've not revealed that before.

1692
02:05:09.960 --> 02:05:14.939
But because of the character traits.

1693
02:05:15.000 --> 02:05:20.460
I'll say now, having seen more episodes, that there's moments that she has brilliance in those moments where I just want to bitch slip on myself.

1694
02:05:20.520 --> 02:05:22.140
And that's not Debbie's fault, right?

1695
02:05:22.260 --> 02:05:23.460
So that's been a revelation.

1696
02:05:23.520 --> 02:05:27.119
I think the major revelation is that I really don't like a lot of the stories.

1697
02:05:27.180 --> 02:05:31.619
Like, they're too long. really codified, similar, aren't they?

1698
02:05:31.680 --> 02:05:37.140
And there's very few that I would actually put in my top 20, Doctor Who's. like just in my head.

1699
02:05:38.460 --> 02:05:40.979
But I love Patrick Troughton.

1700
02:05:41.039 --> 02:05:42.899
And I love the other companions.

1701
02:05:42.960 --> 02:05:45.119
And I guess it's the way television is made.

1702
02:05:45.180 --> 02:05:54.239
And also, I think the other thing is how the perch wee era begins before perch wee's there, really. with Enemy of the World, and then what comes after it.

1703
02:05:54.300 --> 02:06:00.960
So it's just, it's starting that perch we feel is starting before perch.

1704
02:06:01.020 --> 02:06:02.939
Like, in those stories.

1705
02:06:03.000 --> 02:06:06.119
I'm just saying like there's just, there's just more of that than I thought there was going to be.

1706
02:06:06.180 --> 02:06:10.560
I really hope we, they more episodes turn up. really do.

1707
02:06:10.859 --> 02:06:15.300
I didn't actually say that Pete was the best actor to play the role.

1708
02:06:15.359 --> 02:06:16.920
I said, you're one of the best.

1709
02:06:17.760 --> 02:06:18.720
And the other one is Pat.

1710
02:06:18.779 --> 02:06:20.399
I think he's extraordinary.

1711
02:06:20.460 --> 02:06:26.939
And I think that the loss of so many episodes, particularly at the beginning of his series, is tragic.

1712
02:06:26.939 --> 02:06:32.939
And there's no way that those animations can replicate his performance. you know, they're mere guesses.

1713
02:06:33.000 --> 02:06:35.699
And they, you know, it's not a living person.

1714
02:06:35.760 --> 02:06:47.640
And I remember watching, you know, you've got that massive run from 10th planet episode for all the way through, so whatever the hell, the 1st episode of the underwater menace that exists is too.

1715
02:06:47.819 --> 02:06:51.000
And there's, we don't have any of those.

1716
02:06:51.060 --> 02:06:54.779
And even in the underwater menace, which is kind of terrible.

1717
02:06:54.840 --> 02:06:57.479
The moment you see him acting.

1718
02:06:57.539 --> 02:06:59.340
He is so incredibly good.

1719
02:06:59.340 --> 02:07:00.060
Yes.

1720
02:07:00.180 --> 02:07:02.100
And he's generous.

1721
02:07:02.159 --> 02:07:07.500
He's subtle, he's thoughtful, he's really, really amazing.

1722
02:07:07.560 --> 02:07:10.319
And I love his breathless panic.

1723
02:07:10.380 --> 02:07:12.359
That's that register that he does.

1724
02:07:12.420 --> 02:07:15.840
I think he's really, really amazingly good.

1725
02:07:15.899 --> 02:07:26.220
I think the stories are a bit samey, I think that season 5, apart from Enemy of the World, is, you know, just the same story each time.

1726
02:07:26.279 --> 02:07:28.020
The stories are too long.

1727
02:07:28.079 --> 02:07:30.899
But even then, some of the stories are really good.

1728
02:07:30.960 --> 02:07:39.420
Like, I think the Ice Warriors is, you know, for a crummy base under siege of the kind that we've seen a bunch of times is actually pretty good.

1729
02:07:39.479 --> 02:07:43.260
I think that the abominable snowmen is good.

1730
02:07:43.260 --> 02:07:51.659
And there are maybe more experimental stories than you can remember, you know, there's nothing like the crotons in the rest of the era.

1731
02:07:51.720 --> 02:07:54.359
There's nothing like the mind robber in the rest of the era.

1732
02:07:54.420 --> 02:07:58.619
I think wheel in space is crazy and mental.

1733
02:07:58.680 --> 02:08:03.420
You know, each base under siege does have a different feel to it.

1734
02:08:03.479 --> 02:08:17.220
But it is a little bit of a disappointment after the heart and all era and just the sort of excesses of experimentation and the uncertainty about what we're doing to see the show settle down into a we fight monsters kind of mode.

1735
02:08:17.279 --> 02:08:32.039
But in saying that, like, you know, season 4 is very much them taking those steps at defining what we consider to be Doctor Who in terms of the structure and all that sort of thing and they're getting more and more confident by the end of the season and then that season 5 is taking that and just sticking with that.

1736
02:08:32.100 --> 02:08:44.460
So I think it's it, I see those things in it, is that you've got that experimentation as well as a child learning to walk and run in season 4 towards the end, then trying different things rather than just the same thing.

1737
02:08:44.520 --> 02:08:47.640
Doctor Who becoming Doctor Who, if I can say it like that.

1738
02:08:47.699 --> 02:08:49.140
No, I think that's absolutely right.

1739
02:08:49.199 --> 02:08:51.659
I completely disagree with all of you.

1740
02:08:52.619 --> 02:08:54.479
Surprise, surprise.

1741
02:08:54.539 --> 02:08:56.520
This is all about athly tiresome.

1742
02:08:57.720 --> 02:09:07.859
No, I'm now that shovel on the front of Sean Connery's Rolls-Royce in the Avengers movie that shouldn't have been made, chugging through received opinion.

1743
02:09:07.920 --> 02:09:09.720
I think this isn't Doctor Who.

1744
02:09:09.779 --> 02:09:13.680
And I think we have, we do actually have the best doctor, the best actor.

1745
02:09:13.739 --> 02:09:30.840
I agree to play the part of Doctor Who, and he plays it perfectly, and he's the only reason, I would agree also the supporting cast, and there are many of them, and there are secondary characters within each one that just enliven it, because Britain was full of great repactors who had come from all radio.

1746
02:09:30.899 --> 02:09:38.520
Our whole, out, that whole generation were audio attuned, audio natives would probably say that.

1747
02:09:38.579 --> 02:09:47.220
And I think that you do the entire era of disservice by trying to watch it, whether it be loose cannon or an animated reconstruction.

1748
02:09:47.279 --> 02:09:49.680
I found power of the Daleks. absolutely.

1749
02:09:49.739 --> 02:09:52.800
At the Nadir of a viewing experience to watch.

1750
02:09:52.859 --> 02:09:54.600
And it's one of my all-time favourite audios.

1751
02:09:54.659 --> 02:09:57.659
Experience it in the audio version.

1752
02:09:57.720 --> 02:10:04.500
This is a great voice actor playing the part of the doctor with some really terrific supporting people around him.

1753
02:10:04.560 --> 02:10:11.699
And there are very beautifully attuned scripts considering the horrendous program that they were having to work at.

1754
02:10:11.760 --> 02:10:34.859
And the fatigue that is in the ensemble cast and very much they're held back by the lead actor, who you can see by the end of it, is just wanting to throw crates around the set, that moment in the space pirates when the station is breaking apart is an entire metaphor for Mr. Troughton's response to the entire production.

1755
02:10:34.859 --> 02:10:39.119
Sling it out into space. but it is very different isn't it?

1756
02:10:39.180 --> 02:10:41.760
But it works beautifully as an audio experience.

1757
02:10:41.819 --> 02:10:47.880
And I've listened to this entire era now 3 times all the way through on the BBC recordings and watched the ones that we have.

1758
02:10:47.939 --> 02:10:49.439
It works better as audio.

1759
02:10:49.500 --> 02:10:55.680
You're not distracted by the desultory production standards, the lachrymose direction.

1760
02:10:55.739 --> 02:10:58.560
It's largely pretty abysmal direction this era.

1761
02:10:58.619 --> 02:10:59.579
Everyone's tired.

1762
02:10:59.640 --> 02:11:00.539
There isn't any money.

1763
02:11:00.600 --> 02:11:01.859
We're going through the motion.

1764
02:11:01.920 --> 02:11:03.300
We're making it because we have to.

1765
02:11:03.359 --> 02:11:05.640
But we still have really good people in it.

1766
02:11:05.699 --> 02:11:08.220
Let them shine, let them do what they do best.

1767
02:11:08.279 --> 02:11:11.220
Listen to it on radio and then it's really good. trying to watch it.

1768
02:11:11.279 --> 02:11:13.260
It's not a great period of Doctor Who.

1769
02:11:13.319 --> 02:11:19.800
I think, though, that you do miss out on crucial bits of Pat's performance if you can't see.

1770
02:11:19.859 --> 02:11:21.359
You miss him pinching the girls off set.

1771
02:11:21.420 --> 02:11:23.279
You know, it's like a little tap on the bottom.

1772
02:11:23.340 --> 02:11:27.960
But this is the twinkle on his iron, and what he does with his hands and...

1773
02:11:27.960 --> 02:11:28.739
That's what we're talking about.

1774
02:11:31.800 --> 02:11:32.640
I walked into that.

1775
02:11:32.640 --> 02:11:39.659
You know, even at this late stage of the flight through entirety, I still walk strange.

1776
02:11:39.720 --> 02:11:40.500
Thank you, Richard.

1777
02:11:41.279 --> 02:12:03.119
Yes, I see I see what you're saying with the direction and that doing so many episodes a year, you know, it's evolving from the early 60s way of doing television like it's changed, but they're still finding their feet in terms of trying to get it right. apace or whatever.

1778
02:12:03.180 --> 02:12:07.260
Like, it's very different from heart, like, yeah, like, completely different.

1779
02:12:07.319 --> 02:12:07.680
Yeah.

1780
02:12:07.739 --> 02:12:10.199
And they are trying to, and we've covered all this in the talking about it.

1781
02:12:10.260 --> 02:12:17.220
They are trying to find a milure, a way to keep going with demands. and they'll get there with pertry.

1782
02:12:17.279 --> 02:12:17.939
Yes, exactly.

1783
02:12:18.000 --> 02:12:19.380
This is the bridge between.

1784
02:12:19.439 --> 02:12:21.300
Unlike anything else.

1785
02:12:21.359 --> 02:12:28.260
Part of the reason I love season 6 so much is it combines that base under siege thing that we had in season five.

1786
02:12:28.260 --> 02:12:36.479
But it starts to be more experimental again and you've got a stronger female companion, you've got Zoe.

1787
02:12:36.600 --> 02:12:39.720
And despite the fact that Pat is tired.

1788
02:12:39.779 --> 02:12:46.619
He is reinvigorated by Wendy Padbury and all of their scenes together, like things like the crotons and the war games.

1789
02:12:46.680 --> 02:12:50.039
You can clearly see that he adores working with her.

1790
02:12:50.100 --> 02:12:59.399
Not that he ever expressed any negativity about working with Frazer or Debbie or even further back, Anika and Ben.

1791
02:12:59.399 --> 02:13:03.000
It's, it's, it's a whole ensemble cast that keeps him going again.

1792
02:13:03.060 --> 02:13:03.659
Yeah, exactly.

1793
02:13:03.720 --> 02:13:06.600
And refreshing that ensemble cast keeps him interested.

1794
02:13:07.020 --> 02:13:09.420
Is he the hero of the era?

1795
02:13:09.479 --> 02:13:11.220
Is there a villain of the era?

1796
02:13:11.279 --> 02:13:11.880
Jerry Dovers.

1797
02:13:11.939 --> 02:13:13.500
Yeah.

1798
02:13:13.500 --> 02:13:19.020
And I'd say conversely, probably Victor Pemberton and Derek Sherwin might be the heroes.

1799
02:13:19.079 --> 02:13:22.319
Yeah, I think Hazman and Lincoln are the villains of the year.

1800
02:13:22.380 --> 02:13:23.579
Are they the Dominators?

1801
02:13:23.640 --> 02:13:24.539
They're the dominators.

1802
02:13:24.600 --> 02:13:25.319
But hang on.

1803
02:13:25.380 --> 02:13:27.239
Who wrote abominable snowman?

1804
02:13:27.359 --> 02:13:30.420
Yeah, I know, but you love that.

1805
02:13:30.479 --> 02:13:32.699
I know, I know, but then you kind of look back on it.

1806
02:13:32.760 --> 02:13:39.899
Xander has this thing about them because all the stories end up being slightly racist.

1807
02:13:40.020 --> 02:13:48.960
Sabre is a young, highly exuberant and well-educated, highly intelligent man who has very strong opinions, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're universally right.

1808
02:13:49.020 --> 02:13:50.760
Oh no, no, I'm not saying that at all.

1809
02:13:50.819 --> 02:13:54.060
So I tend to, it is that he's his own little omnivorse right there.

1810
02:13:54.420 --> 02:14:00.119
I'm disagreeing with him more and more as watching this. the dominators is terrible.

1811
02:14:00.180 --> 02:14:02.699
Oh, look, I can't disagree with that.

1812
02:14:02.760 --> 02:14:06.720
Although, it's also really funny and it's because it's really about the times.

1813
02:14:06.779 --> 02:14:11.640
Well, it's about the times that Pat decided that he wasn't going to do this crap anymore.

1814
02:14:11.880 --> 02:14:14.220
It's a great stinker.

1815
02:14:14.279 --> 02:14:17.340
But then you've got the mind robber and the invasion right afterwards.

1816
02:14:17.399 --> 02:14:21.840
And so you were saying that the heroes were production team.

1817
02:14:21.899 --> 02:14:26.579
Yeah, I mean, you know, Victor Pemberton, who just passed.

1818
02:14:26.640 --> 02:14:28.500
Yeah, just passed away recently.

1819
02:14:28.560 --> 02:14:31.920
Um, going to join David, who's been...

1820
02:14:31.979 --> 02:14:33.479
You know, Victor Pemberton.

1821
02:14:33.539 --> 02:14:50.399
He was only script editor for a very short time, but from what it appears, he kind of informed that season 5 approach, which is very repetitious, but the richness of the characterisation is what makes it so good there.

1822
02:14:50.460 --> 02:15:02.640
And even though I'm not a big fan of Fury from the Deep, I cannot fault the characterisations in that story, I think possibly they are a little too strong, the doctor and friends are left with not much to do, which is one of my criticisms of that.

1823
02:15:02.760 --> 02:15:06.600
But as a piece of science fiction as a piece of horror, I think it's brilliant.

1824
02:15:06.659 --> 02:15:18.359
And Derek Sherwin, of course, In the background throughout the bit of season 5 that he worked on, he kind of went, oh, I'm not sure this quite works.

1825
02:15:18.420 --> 02:15:20.760
So when he comes into power in season six.

1826
02:15:20.819 --> 02:15:30.119
He's like, no, you know, we're going to have different setting every week and sometimes it's going to be an invasion, but oh, we've got this thing about people using brain power to power a spaceship.

1827
02:15:30.180 --> 02:15:33.180
And then to save the show.

1828
02:15:33.239 --> 02:15:34.680
We gonna set it on earth.

1829
02:15:35.220 --> 02:15:38.100
And he does save the show in that way.

1830
02:15:38.579 --> 02:15:40.439
That's a good point.

1831
02:15:41.100 --> 02:15:45.060
So, on that point, we're now going to go, one to watch.

1832
02:15:45.899 --> 02:15:48.600
Oh, one to watch the enemy of the world.

1833
02:15:48.840 --> 02:15:51.659
I'd say that, but I'm going to say the Crocheons.

1834
02:15:51.720 --> 02:15:58.979
Yeah, I'm going to say I have similar reservations to you, Richard, about the animation, but I'm going to say Power of the Daleks.

1835
02:16:00.479 --> 02:16:02.640
Ha, ha, ha.

1836
02:16:02.699 --> 02:16:06.359
I would say listen to I love the Highlanders, but I really love the war games.

1837
02:16:06.420 --> 02:16:07.079
Can't watch that.

1838
02:16:07.140 --> 02:16:08.640
Yeah, it's great.

1839
02:16:08.699 --> 02:16:10.859
Really drunk. 10 episodes.

1840
02:16:10.920 --> 02:16:12.420
That's great.

1841
02:16:12.479 --> 02:16:13.739
One to avoid.

1842
02:16:14.399 --> 02:16:17.640
Oh, oh, the Dominators, awful.

1843
02:16:17.699 --> 02:16:18.180
Yes.

1844
02:16:18.239 --> 02:16:19.140
Dominators.

1845
02:16:19.260 --> 02:16:21.000
Space Pirates.

1846
02:16:21.119 --> 02:16:23.039
At Lisa Space Pirates has Milo Clancy.

1847
02:16:23.399 --> 02:16:26.340
Actually, Moonbase pretty crusty.

1848
02:16:26.399 --> 02:16:27.600
Oh, okay.

1849
02:16:27.600 --> 02:16:28.199
Yep, okay.

1850
02:16:28.260 --> 02:16:33.180
And now, Patrick Chowden is starring in the movie of the week.

1851
02:16:33.239 --> 02:16:36.479
I reckon there's a whole heap of them that you can do.

1852
02:16:36.540 --> 02:16:38.159
What a choice.

1853
02:16:38.219 --> 02:16:39.659
But I'm going to pick the invasion.

1854
02:16:39.959 --> 02:16:45.239
But only if we can have Kevin Stoney back as Tobias Vaughan as well.

1855
02:16:45.299 --> 02:16:46.200
It's a great choice.

1856
02:16:46.260 --> 02:16:49.200
I am going to pick the wheel in space.

1857
02:16:49.260 --> 02:16:50.879
Yes, that was my 2nd thing.

1858
02:16:50.940 --> 02:16:53.879
Because again, I think tighten the script top a bit.

1859
02:16:53.940 --> 02:16:54.360
Be really good.

1860
02:16:54.420 --> 02:16:59.760
Yeah, mine is enemy of the world with pretty much the same director, which is I picked last time.

1861
02:17:00.719 --> 02:17:05.819
I'm going to go with the macro terror. choice.

1862
02:17:05.879 --> 02:17:06.840
Yeah, because exactly.

1863
02:17:06.899 --> 02:17:10.620
In fact, you can shoot it in Port Myron, and you've got the same, you know, you've got...

1864
02:17:10.620 --> 02:17:12.000
Yeah, it's perfect.

1865
02:17:12.059 --> 02:17:13.020
Yes, perfect.

1866
02:17:13.079 --> 02:17:14.219
All right.

1867
02:17:14.340 --> 02:17:16.079
Back to the beginning.

1868
02:17:45.420 --> 02:17:47.520
A heart in the era.

1869
02:17:47.579 --> 02:17:50.760
Whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop.

1870
02:17:50.879 --> 02:17:52.139
We've got to do our stick.

1871
02:17:52.200 --> 02:17:52.979
That's the last.

1872
02:17:55.559 --> 02:17:59.579
The hero of the Hartnell era is William Hartnell.

1873
02:17:59.700 --> 02:18:00.000
Yep.

1874
02:18:00.000 --> 02:18:02.579
He created the role.

1875
02:18:02.579 --> 02:18:11.579
He has his real performance has been kind of forgotten in a way by fandom when he became in the 80s, the grumpy one.

1876
02:18:11.639 --> 02:18:12.959
He's not the grumpy one.

1877
02:18:13.020 --> 02:18:18.299
He is sweet and funny and childlike and grandfatherly.

1878
02:18:18.360 --> 02:18:22.200
It's an extraordinarily charismatic performance.

1879
02:18:22.260 --> 02:18:30.239
It's a very different role from what the doctor's role ends up being, but I think he's marvellous, and then the heroine of the era.

1880
02:18:30.840 --> 02:18:34.379
Do I need to, do I need to say?

1881
02:18:34.440 --> 02:18:36.420
It's it's Jackie Hill.

1882
02:18:36.540 --> 02:18:40.319
And if it hadn't been for her, we wouldn't be here.

1883
02:18:40.379 --> 02:18:46.860
I totally agree with you and I think watching this, I just love watching them.

1884
02:18:46.920 --> 02:18:50.040
I love watching him, all the little things he does.

1885
02:18:50.100 --> 02:18:56.700
Television was made so differently in that era and I love watching it from that point of view.

1886
02:18:56.760 --> 02:19:01.500
You know, I challenge any actor to do essentially what is a state, 25 minute stage play each week.

1887
02:19:01.500 --> 02:19:04.620
Yeah. without getting retanks.

1888
02:19:04.739 --> 02:19:05.219
Yeah.

1889
02:19:05.219 --> 02:19:11.340
I agree with both of you, but I must include an honourable mention for verity left.

1890
02:19:11.340 --> 02:19:11.700
Of course.

1891
02:19:11.760 --> 02:19:12.600
Yes, yeah.

1892
02:19:12.659 --> 02:19:24.239
And, you know, that biopic shows also how important Warris Hussein was in the early days, but he was gone by the end of year one in terms of Doctor Who has had a long successful career.

1893
02:19:24.299 --> 02:19:27.420
But yeah, verity stuck around 2 full years.

1894
02:19:27.479 --> 02:19:34.680
Yeah, she did. which is longer than most did on series that, you know, serials for that era.

1895
02:19:34.739 --> 02:19:37.440
You tended to just do a season, even big productions.

1896
02:19:37.500 --> 02:19:40.860
The Avengers were independent television.

1897
02:19:40.920 --> 02:19:42.000
So they weren't BBC.

1898
02:19:42.059 --> 02:19:43.260
It was a different way of doing TV.

1899
02:19:43.319 --> 02:19:46.379
And even then, Leonard White only did a season and a half of the Avengers.

1900
02:19:46.440 --> 02:19:48.299
John Bryce did a season and a half.

1901
02:19:48.360 --> 02:19:49.440
Brian Clemons did.

1902
02:19:49.500 --> 02:19:52.020
Yeah, the last 3 seasons with a bit of John Rice.

1903
02:19:52.079 --> 02:19:54.000
My shows were much shorter.

1904
02:19:54.059 --> 02:19:58.319
We only seem to remember the big epic ones because they're the ones that are available and the ones that were repeated.

1905
02:19:58.379 --> 02:19:59.280
The ones that survived.

1906
02:19:59.280 --> 02:20:00.059
Yeah, exactly.

1907
02:20:00.120 --> 02:20:02.760
But our parents were watching things much more episodically.

1908
02:20:02.819 --> 02:20:06.059
Doctor Who was a rare thing and a big event right from day one.

1909
02:20:06.120 --> 02:20:10.860
I would add to all of those that honorific that you've named Delia Derbyshire.

1910
02:20:10.920 --> 02:20:14.159
And I don't think you would have tuned in for a week too if she wasn't there.

1911
02:20:14.219 --> 02:20:19.020
And Ray Cusick, because I don't think it would have tuned in after a few weeks.

1912
02:20:19.020 --> 02:20:27.000
If Cusick's Nations script is great, but honestly, it was written by Heinland and a few other blokes in the 50s several times over.

1913
02:20:27.059 --> 02:20:28.979
It's Cusick that makes it work.

1914
02:20:29.040 --> 02:20:30.719
He's designed the Daleks.

1915
02:20:30.780 --> 02:20:31.799
Wow.

1916
02:20:31.860 --> 02:20:45.239
I think that nation actually, this is nation's heyday, though, because he creates 4 Doctor Who stories and each of them is vastly different than the last one.

1917
02:20:45.299 --> 02:21:00.239
The funny thing is, Johnny Morris recently on Twitter has been going on this wonderful thing of doing photo reconstructions, i.e. just a photo from the set with deleted scenes from Doctor Who scripts, and he's got his hands on a copy of the mission of the unknown script.

1918
02:21:00.299 --> 02:21:02.760
And the mission to the unknown script.

1919
02:21:02.819 --> 02:21:03.780
He says, this is very odd.

1920
02:21:03.840 --> 02:21:07.860
It has clearly been written on 2 different typewriters, Dennis Spooner.

1921
02:21:08.040 --> 02:21:16.260
And it's literally things like, uh, tract of dialogue will be done on one typewriter, and then the reply from the other character.

1922
02:21:16.319 --> 02:21:18.719
So it's a photocopy of the script.

1923
02:21:18.780 --> 02:21:22.020
It's not an original, but the margins are different.

1924
02:21:22.139 --> 02:21:23.760
The lettering slightly different.

1925
02:21:23.819 --> 02:21:32.940
So they've put a piece of paper over the top, whoever this other scriptwriter was, Dennis Spooner, and just typed typed over the top of the paper.

1926
02:21:33.000 --> 02:21:36.959
Don't you think that that sort of tarry nation all the way through?

1927
02:21:37.020 --> 02:21:42.000
I mean, if it hadn't been for Bob Holmes, Genesis of the Daleks would probably have been terrible.

1928
02:21:42.059 --> 02:21:49.500
And Chris Boucher, you know, turned Terry Nation's Blake 7 scripts into things that are sort of watchable.

1929
02:21:49.559 --> 02:21:50.520
Could actually be shot, yeah.

1930
02:21:50.579 --> 02:21:52.319
Yeah, so Dennis Spooner is also...

1931
02:21:52.440 --> 02:21:52.860
Yeah.

1932
02:21:52.920 --> 02:21:54.479
Dennis Spooner, Denver and Whitaker.

1933
02:21:54.600 --> 02:21:56.280
Oh, absolutely.

1934
02:21:56.340 --> 02:21:59.399
And I'm also going to throw in a couple of other actors on screen.

1935
02:21:59.459 --> 02:22:02.040
I think Maureen O'Brien and Peter Purvis.

1936
02:22:02.100 --> 02:22:03.180
Yeah, very good.

1937
02:22:03.180 --> 02:22:06.360
You know, unsung heroes in that 3rd series.

1938
02:22:06.780 --> 02:22:10.860
Yeah, I do agree that as much as I enjoy her performance.

1939
02:22:11.520 --> 02:22:16.379
Jackie Lane isn't fit to be mentioned in the same breath of all those other people.

1940
02:22:16.379 --> 02:22:22.979
It's simply because all those other people, and William Russell had a role in holding the show together.

1941
02:22:23.040 --> 02:22:25.979
Whereas Jackie Lane was never given that power.

1942
02:22:26.040 --> 02:22:38.219
You know, she was just kind of told, okay, you're the new Dr. Huger on you go and was thrown into this chaotic situation, which, you know, the viewer at home had no idea how chaotic things were on Doctor Who.

1943
02:22:38.280 --> 02:22:40.319
Yeah, Caroline Ford did.

1944
02:22:40.379 --> 02:22:45.239
I think in season 3, it is visible on screen, how chaotic the production is.

1945
02:22:45.299 --> 02:22:51.239
But on a screen this big, he says, you know, holding up fingers about 4 inches away from each other.

1946
02:22:51.299 --> 02:22:53.520
Who's the producer after John Wiles?

1947
02:22:53.639 --> 02:22:58.799
That's when Jerry Davis and Innes Lloyd come in.

1948
02:22:58.860 --> 02:23:00.059
I think Inis Lloyd.

1949
02:23:00.180 --> 02:23:08.399
I'm not going to say he's a superhero compared to the others, but, you know, he's got streamlining production and setting story links and that sort of thing.

1950
02:23:08.459 --> 02:23:09.659
It does a massacre, have we?

1951
02:23:10.079 --> 02:23:10.620
It does.

1952
02:23:11.760 --> 02:23:14.100
He makes changes to modernise the show.

1953
02:23:14.159 --> 02:23:19.200
He really does a great job. might be might be one of the piece.

1954
02:23:19.260 --> 02:23:20.700
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1955
02:23:20.760 --> 02:23:21.479
I mean, that's the thing.

1956
02:23:21.540 --> 02:23:37.020
John Welles did necessarily a bad job or had bad ideas, but he had very poor execution in how he handled William Hartnell because it just seems from everyone's comments, including his own, his attitude just seemed to be.

1957
02:23:37.079 --> 02:23:54.180
No, I don't care if you're the star, you'll fall into line, and as soon as you present William Hartner with that doesn't matter what you do afterwards, because quite rightly, I think more than any other actor who's played the role, William Hartnell deserved creative control to an extent.

1958
02:23:54.239 --> 02:24:00.659
It's so tough on a weekly budgeted, time and money budgeted TV production.

1959
02:24:00.719 --> 02:24:03.959
We've talked about this is the thing that's come through in today's discussion.

1960
02:24:04.020 --> 02:24:09.899
It looked what went wrong with Tom. wrong with, you know, any actor that you give too much scope to.

1961
02:24:09.959 --> 02:24:14.520
There is a balance to that question because maybe if Colin had been allowed to actually speak more.

1962
02:24:14.579 --> 02:24:16.799
We would have had a show that continued on.

1963
02:24:16.860 --> 02:24:17.879
Yes, yes.

1964
02:24:17.940 --> 02:24:24.479
But, and I agree with you with Billy, but then he was also cantankerous and frustrated with himself and also a man of his own times.

1965
02:24:24.540 --> 02:24:30.420
But there this is several shows, just in itself. in what we're looking at here.

1966
02:24:30.479 --> 02:24:31.680
There's at least 3 different shows.

1967
02:24:31.739 --> 02:24:34.379
The only thing tying it together is Billy.

1968
02:24:34.680 --> 02:24:39.840
I would also like to make an honourable mention is that we did 1st time around to Carol Land, watching her again.

1969
02:24:39.899 --> 02:24:49.979
The tremulousness and timorousness and just terror that she feels going through this is exactly what the little person sitting at home is supposed to be feeling and would be with the sounds.

1970
02:24:50.040 --> 02:24:51.840
Nothing had ever sounded like this before.

1971
02:24:51.899 --> 02:24:53.639
Deadland looked like this.

1972
02:24:53.700 --> 02:24:54.780
So it was extraordinary.

1973
02:24:54.840 --> 02:24:57.959
I think she actually handles it well in that 1st season.

1974
02:24:58.020 --> 02:25:01.260
She gives what I believe she was expected to give.

1975
02:25:02.040 --> 02:25:03.420
Okay.

1976
02:25:03.479 --> 02:25:06.059
So, one to watch.

1977
02:25:06.479 --> 02:25:08.100
Just one.

1978
02:25:08.159 --> 02:25:09.360
Just one.

1979
02:25:09.479 --> 02:25:11.700
I'm going to say the Romans.

1980
02:25:11.760 --> 02:25:13.139
Oh, yeah.

1981
02:25:13.200 --> 02:25:15.600
It's so funny It is.

1982
02:25:15.600 --> 02:25:17.159
It is good.

1983
02:25:17.219 --> 02:25:19.799
I'll go with you because I really enjoy watching that.

1984
02:25:19.860 --> 02:25:20.579
Wonderful.

1985
02:25:20.639 --> 02:25:22.079
I think I've said this before.

1986
02:25:22.139 --> 02:25:29.399
I showed it in Doctor Who Club to a bunch of, you know, 12, 13 year olds who thought it was hilarious and enjoyed it on its own terms.

1987
02:25:29.459 --> 02:25:31.079
I think it's it's really fun.

1988
02:25:31.319 --> 02:25:38.819
Um, I'm going to choose one that can be bought on a DVD and watched because this is kind of a recommendation.

1989
02:25:38.879 --> 02:25:42.239
I am going to choose the Dalek Invasion of Earth.

1990
02:25:42.600 --> 02:25:47.819
If I were if I were choosing an audio, it would be the Daleks master plan.

1991
02:25:48.420 --> 02:25:52.440
But yeah, but really Dale Convasion of Earth, it is a good one.

1992
02:25:52.500 --> 02:25:54.360
It showcases the 4 regulars very well.

1993
02:25:54.420 --> 02:26:01.500
I know we find the ending a little hard to take, but on the surface, it's a very powerful ending.

1994
02:26:01.559 --> 02:26:03.120
One to avoid.

1995
02:26:03.180 --> 02:26:04.139
Oh, sorry.

1996
02:26:04.200 --> 02:26:04.860
Did you have one?

1997
02:26:04.920 --> 02:26:06.180
Oh, I haven't done my joyous thing.

1998
02:26:06.239 --> 02:26:08.100
Well, obviously you all have to listen to the massacre.

1999
02:26:08.159 --> 02:26:09.719
You just do.

2000
02:26:09.780 --> 02:26:11.639
It's really well reading, really well.

2001
02:26:11.700 --> 02:26:12.360
I really like it.

2002
02:26:12.420 --> 02:26:13.440
Yeah.

2003
02:26:13.500 --> 02:26:19.319
And I think didn't Stan Spooner have a bit of tweaking in that as well, because he was behind the scenes. a whole lot of times there.

2004
02:26:19.799 --> 02:26:21.479
Sorry, Richard.

2005
02:26:21.540 --> 02:26:22.739
So one to avoid.

2006
02:26:22.799 --> 02:26:24.360
Well, obviously the massacre.

2007
02:26:24.479 --> 02:26:26.100
Doctor.

2008
02:26:26.100 --> 02:26:26.879
Take a drink.

2009
02:26:26.940 --> 02:26:27.540
Take a drink.

2010
02:26:28.020 --> 02:26:30.360
Celestial toy maker.

2011
02:26:30.420 --> 02:26:31.680
Oh, it's awful.

2012
02:26:31.739 --> 02:26:35.100
That is that that is a great nomination.

2013
02:26:35.159 --> 02:26:36.299
The web planet.

2014
02:26:36.540 --> 02:26:38.399
No, that's wonderful.

2015
02:26:38.459 --> 02:26:38.940
We love that.

2016
02:26:39.000 --> 02:26:40.200
Rob will be pleased.

2017
02:26:40.680 --> 02:26:42.780
Only in its current form.

2018
02:26:42.840 --> 02:26:45.659
I haven't got I haven't got up to what we make as a movie.

2019
02:26:46.860 --> 02:26:48.420
Richard.

2020
02:26:48.479 --> 02:26:50.459
Oh, one to avoid.

2021
02:26:51.600 --> 02:26:54.540
No, I'd have to say celestial...

2022
02:26:54.540 --> 02:26:55.860
It's so dull.

2023
02:26:55.920 --> 02:26:59.159
Okay, movie with William Hartnell.

2024
02:26:59.219 --> 02:27:02.159
Well, mainly not Peter Cushion.

2025
02:27:02.219 --> 02:27:02.819
Not Peter Cushing.

2026
02:27:02.879 --> 02:27:03.120
Damn.

2027
02:27:03.180 --> 02:27:06.299
Well, if it was Peter Cushing, of course, I was going to say Daleks versus Mecons.

2028
02:27:06.360 --> 02:27:07.139
Yes.

2029
02:27:07.139 --> 02:27:11.819
But as a movie, I'd have to say Dalek's Masterplan.

2030
02:27:11.879 --> 02:27:13.020
I agree.

2031
02:27:13.079 --> 02:27:14.700
That's that's pretty awesome.

2032
02:27:14.819 --> 02:27:16.739
I would also be going with the web planet.

2033
02:27:16.799 --> 02:27:21.239
Is it funny because I was thinking Web Planet as a film because it could just be so beautiful.

2034
02:27:21.299 --> 02:27:23.280
Jodorovsky version of it.

2035
02:27:23.280 --> 02:27:31.319
If, you know, if you've seen the Doco on his unrealised making of Dune, that you just, yeah, that is...

2036
02:27:31.379 --> 02:27:33.360
I also really love myth makers.

2037
02:27:33.420 --> 02:27:35.100
I just love that story.

2038
02:27:35.159 --> 02:27:36.540
That's good.

2039
02:27:36.600 --> 02:27:41.340
Well, I mean, my other nomination was actually the entire William Harten era.

2040
02:27:41.399 --> 02:27:42.899
As a film.

2041
02:27:42.899 --> 02:27:44.100
As films.

2042
02:27:44.159 --> 02:27:47.399
Yeah, with David Bradley and Gemma Powell.

2043
02:27:47.399 --> 02:27:49.020
Yeah, yeah, why not?

2044
02:27:49.079 --> 02:27:51.000
Except for the massacre.

2045
02:27:51.059 --> 02:27:52.860
Please, Nathan.

2046
02:28:12.239 --> 02:28:13.680
All right.

2047
02:28:13.739 --> 02:28:16.500
Have we reached the end of our flight through entirety?

2048
02:28:16.559 --> 02:28:17.100
Oh, is it?

2049
02:28:17.219 --> 02:28:17.760
At the beginning?

2050
02:28:17.879 --> 02:28:19.860
Or is it the beginning?

2051
02:28:19.920 --> 02:28:21.659
So we will be back next year.

2052
02:28:21.719 --> 02:28:22.379
Yes.

2053
02:28:22.379 --> 02:28:23.879
Some months.

2054
02:28:23.879 --> 02:28:25.559
Whether you like it. or not.

2055
02:28:25.860 --> 02:28:29.639
With the 2005 series.

2056
02:28:29.700 --> 02:28:31.739
So it's not quite the end.

2057
02:28:31.860 --> 02:28:37.020
But before we get there, like, you know, at this point, what are you feeling?

2058
02:28:37.079 --> 02:28:39.120
What's your feeling of your journey?

2059
02:28:39.180 --> 02:28:41.219
Are we yet to come?

2060
02:28:42.059 --> 02:29:00.239
Well, you know, like this is my 1st time watching the whole show through, and it's been fantastic, and having the opportunity to chat about it, um, and, uh, you know, the fact that people are inexplicably disposed to listen to us.

2061
02:29:01.079 --> 02:29:03.180
Thank you to my own.

2062
02:29:03.239 --> 02:29:03.840
Amazing.

2063
02:29:03.899 --> 02:29:05.159
It is.

2064
02:29:05.219 --> 02:29:05.879
It is.

2065
02:29:05.940 --> 02:29:07.559
So yeah, it's been really something.

2066
02:29:07.620 --> 02:29:09.540
It's been incredible coming in.

2067
02:29:09.600 --> 02:29:16.620
And thank you to the 3 of you and to listeners for welcoming, welcoming, for welcome.

2068
02:29:16.680 --> 02:29:18.540
What am I trying to say?

2069
02:29:18.600 --> 02:29:19.139
Welcoming.

2070
02:29:19.200 --> 02:29:19.739
Thank you.

2071
02:29:19.799 --> 02:29:21.239
Me in and letting me stay?

2072
02:29:21.600 --> 02:29:23.700
No, I wasn't going to.

2073
02:29:23.819 --> 02:29:25.500
I was going to say...

2074
02:29:25.500 --> 02:29:26.459
I'm getting tank tied.

2075
02:29:26.520 --> 02:29:28.139
I think Matt Smith said an episode.

2076
02:29:28.200 --> 02:29:31.620
We're all different people at different points now, lives, but we keep on moving forward.

2077
02:29:31.680 --> 02:29:36.899
And going back and watching this, I'm taken back to different points in my life.

2078
02:29:36.959 --> 02:29:44.459
And I come to each era with different experiences and different memories and different feelings, and none are less valid than the other.

2079
02:29:44.520 --> 02:30:00.420
And, you know, what I give a 10 to in one era, I may not give a 10 to in another, like different criteria, like you are a flawed person and you have different feelings about things, but it's been a, it's been a delight to watch the whole thing with you guys and discuss it.

2080
02:30:01.500 --> 02:30:03.420
I'm with Nathan.

2081
02:30:03.479 --> 02:30:06.780
This is the 1st tour I've ever been able to sit through it.

2082
02:30:06.780 --> 02:30:25.920
And, yeah, it's just not something you would do lightly, and it's equally frustrating and joyful in all the others, but I realised like it's like any process of education, it's a, you learn so much about the times that you're responding to and viewing and also the times we're living in now.

2083
02:30:25.979 --> 02:30:30.120
This is now, unfortunately, all the post-modernists are correct.

2084
02:30:30.180 --> 02:30:30.899
This is a text.

2085
02:30:30.959 --> 02:30:39.420
And it is worthy of study, and it is also worthy of discussion, simply because of what it else it brings up.

2086
02:30:39.420 --> 02:30:41.579
Far apart from what it is itself.

2087
02:30:41.639 --> 02:30:44.579
It gives us so much more just by being involved in it.

2088
02:30:44.639 --> 02:30:46.020
And by being with all of you.

2089
02:30:46.079 --> 02:30:46.559
So thank you.

2090
02:30:47.159 --> 02:30:53.040
So this idea started drunkenly. drunkenly.

2091
02:30:53.100 --> 02:31:04.799
Yeah, actually in 2012 and um, you guys were around here for one of our, one of our cocktail parties and um, we were standing around the doctor action figures talking.

2092
02:31:04.799 --> 02:31:12.360
And, I, I, it just struck me that, This is actually really interesting what we're talking about.

2093
02:31:12.420 --> 02:31:16.379
I've heard of James should never be allowed to ever sleep.

2094
02:31:16.440 --> 02:31:18.600
Shut up, James, back in your box.

2095
02:31:18.659 --> 02:31:24.840
I've heard of podcasts RA thing, so maybe I should maybe I should make one.

2096
02:31:24.840 --> 02:31:27.180
And so 6 months later, that's what we did.

2097
02:31:27.239 --> 02:31:30.239
Um, actually longer than 6 months, I think.

2098
02:31:30.239 --> 02:31:31.319
I think it was over a year.

2099
02:31:31.379 --> 02:31:32.399
I think I parked it for a while.

2100
02:31:32.459 --> 02:31:40.020
Um, And yeah, so everyone who's been on the podcast, including James, of course, who was on our stones of blood.

2101
02:31:40.079 --> 02:31:43.680
I asked initially and as the perfect victim, yes.

2102
02:31:43.739 --> 02:31:51.600
As I recall at the time, both Todd and James were kind of a bit, just a bit shy about doing the idea, you know, about putting yourself out there.

2103
02:31:51.659 --> 02:31:54.360
So it became the 3 of us who it was originally.

2104
02:31:54.420 --> 02:31:58.979
And Richard, there was that time where you became rather busy and we'd already discussed Todd.

2105
02:31:58.979 --> 02:32:02.639
Todd coming on. that I regenerated to Todd.

2106
02:32:02.700 --> 02:32:03.120
Yes.

2107
02:32:03.180 --> 02:32:04.680
Thank you, Richard. so to speak.

2108
02:32:04.739 --> 02:32:11.040
But, you know, we'd already discussed Todd going on, coming on for Colin, because Richard, you said, even at the very beginning, I don't know if I can watch Colin.

2109
02:32:11.100 --> 02:32:14.219
And as you said earlier, you haven't watched all of Colin.

2110
02:32:14.280 --> 02:32:24.120
And, you know, that the idea then became James would be a substitute for Nathan, if we ever managed to claw Nathan's hand off the microphone, which hasn't happened.

2111
02:32:24.120 --> 02:32:25.620
So I apologise, James.

2112
02:32:25.920 --> 02:32:28.979
Um...

2113
02:32:28.979 --> 02:32:37.500
As for myself personally, what I have discovered is I can set out and complete a project for once.

2114
02:32:37.559 --> 02:32:43.020
You know, I've started I've started 17 novels and I've never got beyond chapter one.

2115
02:32:43.079 --> 02:32:46.379
You look at work or you look at study that we try and do.

2116
02:32:46.440 --> 02:32:48.840
It's very tough to get through anything.

2117
02:32:48.899 --> 02:32:57.180
And, you know, then you get so, and to do it with such wonderful insimpatico company.

2118
02:32:57.180 --> 02:33:11.819
And, and, you know, people who each of you and James over on Bondfinger, who share my passion enough to set aside days of your life to do this with me.

2119
02:33:11.879 --> 02:33:25.559
I'm incredibly grateful for for people who have then downloaded it, shared it, listened to us, given feedback, +and negative, because we've received negative feedback, which we have folded into the show to improve it.

2120
02:33:25.799 --> 02:33:28.979
Um, And a one star rating.

2121
02:33:29.040 --> 02:33:30.180
And a one star rating.

2122
02:33:30.239 --> 02:33:30.780
Oh really?

2123
02:33:30.840 --> 02:33:34.920
Yeah, our very 1st iTunes rating was one star from someone...

2124
02:33:34.979 --> 02:33:36.719
I am I am Frank.

2125
02:33:36.719 --> 02:33:37.500
I am Frank.

2126
02:33:37.559 --> 02:33:41.280
I am friends, but it's not friend of the podcast, nor but friends, because he's wonderful.

2127
02:33:41.399 --> 02:33:45.840
With a one-star review with that was bad, and that was our 1st review.

2128
02:33:46.079 --> 02:33:48.540
But to have...

2129
02:33:48.540 --> 02:33:54.420
But to have all of that support from the people here in this room, from my partner, Rod, who is currently in the next room.

2130
02:33:54.479 --> 02:33:57.479
With James.

2131
02:33:57.479 --> 02:34:04.860
From James over on Bondfinger and from the listeners, has it's been really life affirming.

2132
02:34:04.920 --> 02:34:07.379
And, you know, we've alluded in this podcast.

2133
02:34:07.440 --> 02:34:15.000
The last few months have been very hard for us on a personal level with what's happening politically, and that extends back years with the fight we've been having with our government.

2134
02:34:15.059 --> 02:34:18.360
So to have this positive experience.

2135
02:34:18.780 --> 02:34:23.040
In my life, in our lives has been wonderful.

2136
02:34:23.100 --> 02:34:30.780
And there are people I have met through this online that when I go off travelling next year, I hope to meet up with for a drink.

2137
02:34:30.840 --> 02:34:34.559
Um, I won't I won't name names because I'm bound to forget someone.

2138
02:34:34.620 --> 02:34:42.780
Um, Yeah, and um, look, I'm gonna make an announcement at this point.

2139
02:34:43.559 --> 02:34:50.819
Um, we will be coming back for the new series, but I will be stepping down from running the podcast.

2140
02:34:51.120 --> 02:34:54.180
Nathan will be taking over running the podcast.

2141
02:34:54.239 --> 02:34:56.459
I will still be in it occasionally.

2142
02:34:56.579 --> 02:35:00.959
But I'm talking one or 2 stories a season.

2143
02:35:01.020 --> 02:35:04.379
And my reasoning for that is.

2144
02:35:05.040 --> 02:35:13.680
The classic series, and we've all discussed this, was there for me as a kid, and so it has those memories.

2145
02:35:13.739 --> 02:35:22.860
Whereas the new series which I enjoy, is there for me as an adult, and it really, I made this decision a long time ago, and and informed the crew.

2146
02:35:22.920 --> 02:35:32.760
Um, But it really came to a head when I was writing for a book called Hating to Love, and I was to write about 4 classic and 2 new series stories.

2147
02:35:32.879 --> 02:35:35.280
And the 4 classic ones just tripped off the keyboard.

2148
02:35:35.340 --> 02:35:37.260
And the 2 new series stories.

2149
02:35:37.319 --> 02:35:42.180
I just couldn't muster it and it's, It's, There's a layer missing.

2150
02:35:42.239 --> 02:35:43.620
There's not my experience as a child.

2151
02:35:43.680 --> 02:35:45.000
There's just my experience as an adult.

2152
02:35:45.479 --> 02:35:51.000
And also another part of it is, and I've been discussing this with Nathan, who's taking over.

2153
02:35:51.059 --> 02:36:05.040
For a long time, we've discussed having guests on the podcast and part of my classic series experiences, whenever I've experienced it with someone before the internet came about, it was in the same room and that's something I wanted for flight through entirety.

2154
02:36:05.100 --> 02:36:09.719
So as we move into the new series, there will be more guests.

2155
02:36:09.719 --> 02:36:16.620
And that's not necessarily because I was resistant to guests, but I just wanted that live feeling of people together.

2156
02:36:16.680 --> 02:36:20.280
But times change and so must we.

2157
02:36:21.120 --> 02:36:27.120
So, um, Once again, I'd like to say, thank you to the 3 people in this room.

2158
02:36:27.180 --> 02:36:28.079
Thank you to James.

2159
02:36:28.139 --> 02:36:35.639
Thank you especially to Rod, who puts up with me taking like half of Sunday off, which is our day together to edit an episode of Fly Through Entirety.

2160
02:36:35.700 --> 02:36:36.959
Um.

2161
02:36:37.620 --> 02:36:41.459
And thank you all very much for listening at home.

2162
02:36:42.120 --> 02:36:57.360
Can I just say I want to think on a personal level both yourself and Nathan for the amount of work that you guys have done over this time, you know, the editing, the website, the promotion, and this is out there, they just do an incredible job.

2163
02:36:57.420 --> 02:36:58.680
I could not do it.

2164
02:36:58.739 --> 02:37:03.420
So from the bottom of my bottom of my heart, thank you, Brendan, and thank you, Nathan.

2165
02:37:04.139 --> 02:37:07.200
And, well, thank you, Todd.

2166
02:37:07.260 --> 02:37:27.299
Something I would like to bring up just briefly is what I've always thought each of us bring, and I don't know if I've necessarily vocalised this, but Richard, your knowledge of the history, the culture, film, literature, the stuff you make up, James, expressionism.

2167
02:37:27.360 --> 02:37:29.280
I'm glad you acknowledge that.

2168
02:37:29.280 --> 02:37:30.899
Doctor Who facts.

2169
02:37:31.020 --> 02:37:42.180
Our show would our show would not have the depth of knowledge. and depth of thought without you.

2170
02:37:42.239 --> 02:37:46.739
Or the X certificate that we...

2171
02:37:46.799 --> 02:37:47.760
Oh, thank you.

2172
02:37:47.819 --> 02:37:57.479
Doctor Who's so much more than, you know, you can have a whole room full of your lovely friends and you'll still find out new things about them as much as about the show. itself.

2173
02:37:57.540 --> 02:38:01.799
I guess it's what I mean when I say it's a collective experience, bigger than the sum of its parts.

2174
02:38:01.860 --> 02:38:04.260
It's about the people that are involved with it.

2175
02:38:04.319 --> 02:38:05.280
It's always been a living thing.

2176
02:38:05.760 --> 02:38:07.920
Which brings me to Todd.

2177
02:38:09.719 --> 02:38:19.500
And Todd, it has been such a pleasure to hear from you how Doctor Who changed your life then, and how being in the podcast has changed your life now.

2178
02:38:19.559 --> 02:38:31.500
And something I've always loved that you bring to the podcast aside from knowledge of the ratings and how the show went down, is how willing you are to be open about the personal effect it's had on you.

2179
02:38:31.620 --> 02:38:35.940
Because I think for a lot of our listeners, they've had a similar experience.

2180
02:38:36.000 --> 02:38:36.840
So thank you.

2181
02:38:38.639 --> 02:38:40.319
And you.

2182
02:38:40.680 --> 02:38:43.139
I could look in another direction.

2183
02:38:43.260 --> 02:38:49.620
Um, yeah, Todd touched on the fact that Nathan does so much.

2184
02:38:49.680 --> 02:38:50.399
He does the website.

2185
02:38:50.520 --> 02:38:57.600
Nathan started helping out with the editing around the Peter Davis era, which is where I was thinking about quitting.

2186
02:38:57.659 --> 02:39:01.559
And that's the reason Nathan stepped up is that I was just going to walk away.

2187
02:39:01.620 --> 02:39:14.520
Um, and he's done fantastic job taking over the editing and there's been, as you've heard, because whoever edits the episode does the, um, the voiceover at the end.

2188
02:39:14.579 --> 02:39:17.399
As you've heard, there's been periods where it hasn't been alternating.

2189
02:39:17.459 --> 02:39:21.420
It's been Nathan doing all of them because I've just said to him, look, right now, I just can't.

2190
02:39:21.659 --> 02:39:28.739
Um, and you know, if I've suddenly thrown an episode at him saying, no, I'm too busy this week, he's never complained.

2191
02:39:28.739 --> 02:39:35.040
And Um, just bouncing ideas about the podcast.

2192
02:39:35.100 --> 02:39:38.100
And when I decided I was moving on and he asked if he could take over.

2193
02:39:38.159 --> 02:39:39.420
It's been really strange.

2194
02:39:39.479 --> 02:39:41.879
Nathan keeps coming to me and saying, oh, I'm thinking about doing this.

2195
02:39:41.940 --> 02:39:42.600
Is that okay?

2196
02:39:42.659 --> 02:39:45.180
And it's like, there's a reason I'm giving it away.

2197
02:39:45.239 --> 02:39:46.860
I don't want to have to worry about that.

2198
02:39:46.920 --> 02:39:49.920
Um, editing the other 2 hours.

2199
02:39:51.899 --> 02:39:54.780
Speak to yourself, Richard.

2200
02:39:54.780 --> 02:39:56.700
I have no idea how much was cut.

2201
02:39:58.799 --> 02:40:05.040
Yeah, so pretty much without Nathan, I would not have been here for the last 50 episodes.

2202
02:40:05.159 --> 02:40:08.280
So, thank you, Nathan.

2203
02:40:08.340 --> 02:40:11.940
Um, yeah, so what is there left to say?

2204
02:40:13.079 --> 02:40:17.040
Flight through entirety will return.

2205
02:40:18.239 --> 02:40:22.559
In a few months, we will be having some commentaries here and there.

2206
02:40:22.620 --> 02:40:27.780
We haven't recorded the Colin commentary or the McCoy commentary.

2207
02:40:27.840 --> 02:40:28.440
Or the Davison.

2208
02:40:28.500 --> 02:40:31.319
We will be recording those when Nathan gets back from his trip.

2209
02:40:31.379 --> 02:40:40.020
So we will have some sporadic releases between now and then. and Flight through entirety will return in a regenerated form with a new theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

2210
02:40:41.819 --> 02:40:46.079
But gentlemen, does anyone have anything they'd like to say before we close out?

2211
02:40:47.040 --> 02:40:49.319
Have a drink, dealers.

2212
02:40:49.379 --> 02:40:50.340
Have a drink, dear listener.

2213
02:40:50.459 --> 02:40:53.940
And for the final time from me.

2214
02:40:54.659 --> 02:40:57.420
Thank you very much for listening, good night.

2215
02:40:57.479 --> 02:40:58.680
Good night.

2216
02:40:58.739 --> 02:41:00.299
See you soon.

2217
02:41:00.360 --> 02:41:01.680
Thank you everyone.

2218
02:42:58.739 --> 02:43:04.379
That was flight through entirety with Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

2219
02:43:04.440 --> 02:43:07.860
Theme arrangements by Cameron Lamb, logo designed by Anthony Wells.

2220
02:43:07.920 --> 02:43:14.040
This episode, thank you all for listening and good night, was recorded on October 28, 2017.

2221
02:43:14.219 --> 02:43:17.159
Flight through entirety will return in 2018.

2222
02:43:17.340 --> 02:43:25.680
Remember ages ago when we had a caption competition, well, the winner was Tristan Alfaro, and Richard will be in touch with you, Tristan, in order to deliver your prize.

2223
02:43:25.739 --> 02:43:29.399
Stay tuned for the usual background chat, and we'll see you next year.

2224
02:43:30.239 --> 02:43:32.399
Yep, right, new break.

2225
02:43:32.520 --> 02:43:34.799
Can I take the microphone?

2226
02:43:34.860 --> 02:43:35.879
Yes.

2227
02:43:35.940 --> 02:43:36.780
No, you need to.

2228
02:43:37.200 --> 02:43:41.340
You need, you need these to be able to. we okay?

2229
02:43:41.399 --> 02:43:41.879
We're okay.

2230
02:43:41.940 --> 02:43:44.579
Look, it's the final episode. runs a bit long.

2231
02:43:45.719 --> 02:43:50.639
I did actually want to also cite state of decay because I adored it at the time.

2232
02:43:50.700 --> 02:43:52.079
I just loved it.

2233
02:43:52.139 --> 02:43:54.180
When everything comes back, do that as normal.

2234
02:43:54.360 --> 02:43:54.600
Did you?

2235
02:43:54.659 --> 02:43:58.559
I just, it was so, this is what we've been wanting to see for so long.

2236
02:43:58.860 --> 02:44:00.479
Elegant.

2237
02:44:00.840 --> 02:44:03.719
That's also so elegant.

2238
02:44:03.780 --> 02:44:07.920
It's, and it's, we have this collective thing of Johnny Byrne, terrible, terrible, terrible.

2239
02:44:07.979 --> 02:44:09.239
Actually, look at what he did.

2240
02:44:09.299 --> 02:44:10.979
Look at the early stuff he did.

2241
02:44:10.979 --> 02:44:13.559
And his 1999 scripts aren't that bad either.

2242
02:44:13.620 --> 02:44:14.340
The early ones anyway.

2243
02:44:15.000 --> 02:44:17.040
We are almost done.

2244
02:44:17.219 --> 02:44:20.399
As we travel and time to come.

2245
02:44:20.459 --> 02:44:23.219
I think you've done a real good job with this job.

2246
02:44:23.280 --> 02:44:24.840
Well, you've done a gorgeous job, Tom.

2247
02:44:24.959 --> 02:44:30.180
We can't do sort of small merry void again for all those years because we've done them all already.

2248
02:44:30.239 --> 02:44:33.000
You know, you needed to ask us things that we'd different.

2249
02:44:33.120 --> 02:44:34.860
I can't see it.

2250
02:44:34.920 --> 02:44:38.280
I've wondered how you're going to do it and going back, let's...

2251
02:44:38.340 --> 02:44:39.360
Very, very well.

2252
02:44:42.420 --> 02:44:43.739
No, we've never done it.

2253
02:44:43.739 --> 02:44:45.239
Yeah, you know, we couldn't...

2254
02:44:45.239 --> 02:44:48.780
But you had that one where I said we had to get Tony because the ratings were playing.

2255
02:44:48.840 --> 02:44:50.459
It should be that one when I said that.

2256
02:44:50.520 --> 02:44:52.379
We kept listen to the ball.

2257
02:44:52.440 --> 02:44:52.979
What did he say?

2258
02:44:53.040 --> 02:44:54.899
It was just off the cuff, but I listened to us.

2259
02:44:54.959 --> 02:45:01.440
I've been going back listening to our ones just randomly and I've heard the one where I can't remember which one it is when we're talking and I'm sitting here.

2260
02:45:01.500 --> 02:45:07.799
It's one when I'm just backed up in you just a year and I just say, well, you're as a natty or a program game.

2261
02:45:07.860 --> 02:45:11.219
We had to retarded because I'm raising this sort of podcast for play.

2262
02:45:12.239 --> 02:45:14.879
And I thought, God, it was funny.

2263
02:45:15.840 --> 02:45:17.940
It's a nice moment.

2264
02:45:18.000 --> 02:45:19.559
Would you like a looking guy?

2265
02:45:19.620 --> 02:45:20.639
I don't know where I was.

2266
02:45:20.700 --> 02:45:23.219
Because I always edit it.

2267
02:45:23.280 --> 02:45:26.520
It's about 10 minutes per hour.

2268
02:45:26.520 --> 02:45:27.540
Yeah, still slow.

2269
02:45:27.600 --> 02:45:29.399
Maybe a bit less than that.

2270
02:45:29.459 --> 02:45:44.399
And then, Then I listen to it again while I'm writing the show notes and anything that I hear where it's kind of like, Can I fix that terrible edit?

2271
02:45:44.399 --> 02:45:45.899
Was that terrible at it?

2272
02:45:45.959 --> 02:45:48.899
We'll get a lot of inquiry dust being over the flight.

2273
02:45:48.959 --> 02:45:49.620
Was that us?

2274
02:45:49.680 --> 02:45:50.879
Okay, um.

2275
02:45:51.059 --> 02:45:58.440
Yes, that's for you, darling, and there's tea in the pot. pot Is anyone else having some?

2276
02:45:58.440 --> 02:45:59.579
Yours is one chipped.

2277
02:45:59.760 --> 02:46:02.579
It's at work, it's much loved.

2278
02:46:02.579 --> 02:46:04.500
Season 15.

2279
02:46:06.360 --> 02:46:08.760
I use it as a doorstop.

2280
02:46:11.819 --> 02:46:14.219
I'm actually recording this.