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NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 12:34:05

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast who suddenly realised that we're going

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along with Patrick Troughton's advice in 3 years is a very good

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stint.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan I'm Todd.

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I'm Sidney Newman's reboot as a woman.

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So this is...

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Brian Blesser, because I'm all known.

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We'll read at the moment.

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So black as a woman.

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Oh, sorry.

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We're taking that.

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Wait, the tradesman's entrance.

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Sorry, Brendan.

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So today's episode is a special retrospective on the classic

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series and also on our time that we've spent together over the

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last 3 years.

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And while this is something we've been discussing for months, I

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would also like to give a special shout out to friend of the

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podcast, Bob Gilby, who, when I saw him to record the marriage

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equality video we did together, actually said to me, you know what

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it'd be great?

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A retrospective where you look at the whole history of Doctor Who

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and I could come along and host it.

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Well, he's living in America now.

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We waited till he left.

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And but I did also say to him, Bob, that is fantastic idea.

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But I think if we had you on as a special guest before we had

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James on.

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He'd murdered.

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I think that would be rather bad form.

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And he said, oh, that's a good idea.

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But if you want me to host and it's like, I certainly don't object

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to that.

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But so thank you, thank you, Bob, for suggesting it.

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And when I last spoke to him a few days ago.

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He settling very nicely into his new home with his lovely wife and

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child.

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James just here.

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He was settling nicely into that wheelchair with the gaffer tape

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over his mouth.

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Silence is golden, but gaffer tape is silver.

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Isn't that right, James?

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That's right.

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Because he's, of course, our pertly of the moment.

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Okay, so I'm going to throw to Todd, who is the compare for this

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episode, as he has been for all of our retrospectives, as he

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started on the podcast before coming in on the Pertwee era.

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Of course, covering the whole Colin Baker era.

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And thing, I think, Collins greatest champion.

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Todd, over to you.

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Oh, thank you for those kind words.

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It's been great to be here for such a long time, perhaps not quite

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at the beginning, but you know, it's yeah, wonderful.

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All right.

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So it's the whole damn thing.

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It's the whole damn thing.

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So we've got a lot to cover.

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Settle back and relax.

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And we've just finished the Megani, right?

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Doctor Who?

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Rather short.

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Oh, we're still being hiatus, aren't we?

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I'm leaving.

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Now that you've seen the Bagani, right?

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What do you take away from the McGann era?

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Don't do it again.

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What's the Magane era, though?

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Is it is it the audios as well?

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We know it's, we know it's canon because they're name checked.

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Yeah, there's no such thing as cannon.

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It isn't Star Wars.

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It's not a Star Wars podcast.

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One of the things that we said about Piers Brosnan is that he

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appears to have been grown in a lab in order to play James Bond.

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There's a sentence in which Paul McGann is kind of like everyone

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sort of half remembered ideas of what the doctor had been like.

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And he certainly brings a lot of charm to the role, but there's

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something a bit generic about him, I think.

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Yeah, which doesn't get redressed until he appears in the audios.

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Well, couldn't be in that thing.

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He's hardly on screen for it anyway.

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And he sort of said in interviews that, well, 1st of all, the

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movie was such a whirlwind. that, you know, there wasn't much time

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to think about character, but it said, you know, 3 years later, by

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the time he came around to the audios, 4 years later, I think I

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should say, he sort of thought a bit more about the character and

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got to play it, more how he wanted, and the way he describes it

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is.

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He doesn't quite see them as the same character.

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He sees his audio doctor as he puts it, the madcamp cousin of the

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TV version.

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Good description.

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Have you listened to all of them?

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I haven't listened to all of the Dark Eyes, Doom Coalition, and

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now time war.

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I have, but not the new time will start.

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So I've listened to pretty much all of them again.

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Yeah, it really, as his character goes wrong, shows his strength

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and versatility as an actor.

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And I think I think it's kosher to talk at least about the early

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ones in terms of before the new series comes back because when Big

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Finish managed to get him, it was seen as a great coup, they could

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continue the series.

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It was the current doctor for 6 years, almost 5 years.

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And what was so amazing about those 1st 2 years he did with India

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Fisher was, you know, this was the closest to an official

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continuation of Doctor Who that we were going to get, and it does

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so much between the doctor and companion and with their

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relationship that the new series would emulate. significantly nod

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to. and we're not just talking about stories like Dalek or times

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of midnight, which did almost make it to screen one way or

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another.

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But I agree with you.

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Like, I mean, I really love the India Fisher.

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I mean, there's varying quality, but I love their relationship, and

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for me, that's what I've listened to, and then I sort of towards

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the end, I felt they were too variable, and then I didn't go on.

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Yeah.

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I think what becomes the problem after those 1st 2 years is kind

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of the problem that was starting to creep in later on in the new

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series with Billy Piper in that where does the character go after

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that 1st year?

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Where does, and spoiler alert, if you haven't heard the earlier

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Charlie Pollard audios, it's been 15 years.

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But spoiler alert, where do you go after she confesses her love

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for the doctor and he says it back?

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And the weird, the weird thing is, because of the kisses in the

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telly movie, the word romantic was constantly used to describe the

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8th doctor and the romantic poets.

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And the romantic poet.

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Yeah, in the BBC novels, I believe, it's kind of like what they do

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in the new series.

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He snogs all his companions.

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Like he kisses Fitz Kryna.

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He kisses Sam, like Sam falls in love with him and that sort of

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thing.

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And, you know, he just runs around kissing people.

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It's kind of a defining part of his character.

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And that kind of works because the novels, I feel like the novels

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are more of a niche product than the audios simply because...

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When you're consuming a television show, It takes less effort than

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consuming an audio and when you're consuming an audio, it takes

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less effort than reading a book in terms of your imagination.

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So audio is kind of feel more real to me in that sense.

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It's due to me, actually, because I have a whole, there's a whole

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visual thing you put into it and you describe your own voices.

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It's interesting because I am with Brendan that in terms of the

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audio, they're much closer, whereas I find with the books as they

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go along, I find it much harder to visualise characters you've

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been introduced to, I haven't seen.

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Yeah, they get untidy too. book series.

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But what's wrong?

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Well, I kind of don't like either of them.

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You're listening to like through entirety.

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The reason I think is that they're no longer a shared experience

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that what we've been doing over the last 3.5 years is getting

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together and sharing our experience of Doctor Who.

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Sometimes we've watched it together, you know, particularly in the

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Sylvester McCoy era.

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But you can't listen to an audio with someone and you can't read a

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book with someone.

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And there's so much.

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I mean, if I was to say, I did listen to the early Charlie ones

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but if I was to say, all right, I want to experience the Magan era

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I just wouldn't have time.

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How at this stage, now that big finish has been putting out so

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much stuff, there is so much stuff that there's no way that my

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experience of the Magan era can be the same as anyone else's.

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And so, and that sort of social aspect, you know, that shared set

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of references that we have and that we revel in, you know, that's

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not possible with audio and books, I think.

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That's an excellent point because, of course, when I was a kid, no

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one at school watched Doctor Who.

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So my shared experience was when I started coming to Sydney Doctor

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Who Science Fiction Fan Club meetings and met all of you lot. and

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James and Neil and Brian and Simon and Stephen, all these people

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who are still a part of my life.

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And yeah.

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Yeah, I had never really thought of the books and the audio is not

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being a shared experience in the same way.

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And I suppose that's why we haven't.

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We haven't so much covered them.

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We, of course, did the missing season 23, but that is a shared fan

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experience because for years, you know, people poring over

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fanzines, like what was yellow fever and how to cure it?

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What was Mission to Magnus?

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That became a fan experience?

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Whereas even when Big Finish 1st started bringing out their audios

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they were very vocal fans saying, no, no, no, Doctor Who is only a

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TV show to me, which is a perfectly valid point of view, but it

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means from the beginning.

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They were a niche experience.

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They're also a niche fan group.

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I'm going to be quite age centric now because for us, and I think

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that does include Nathan and Todd, I thought.

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I might just teensiestly be the eldest in the room right now.

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But Doctor Who was always a shared experience between television

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and books.

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The only way we could see, we're pre-VHS culture.

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Target.

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Terrence Sticks was our cardinal, our matrix monitor, that dodgy

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bloke with the Dutch accent.

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Yeah, that's right.

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I mean, we collected the target novelisations because you could

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not collect DVDs or videos and you'd go to school and you talk

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about that with your friends, like what ones have I got, that sort

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of thing.

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You'd watch the repeats.

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That was our experience.

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So I think, Nathan, you're quite right.

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That expansion.

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It's a different experience with the megans.

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And so perhaps if we just narrow it down to what we see visually

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on the screen, which is the night of the doctor and the TV movie

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what would you, what advice would you give to you who fans coming

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in to watch this?

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Right?

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So if they were just watching the TV versions.

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Watching the TV movie, for example, like, you know.

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I think, I think it's a historical artefact, you know, really

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rather than something that you would, that you would enjoy

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watching, um, rather than something. time.

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It's almost your time. yeah.

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It's an evolutionary...

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Death track, isn't it?

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Say if you're like a new series fan, you've only watched the new

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series and you want to go back and you've decided to watch this.

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What sort of mindset would you be saying to them to sit down with

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it?

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Like, they're not going to be expecting the same thing from you as

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new who?

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There has to be some sort of like, after 10 seasons of New Who

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we've now had pretty much all of the original mythology back, and

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that's the thing that seems to be a real priority in the script to

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the telly movie.

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And so it would be less alienating, I think, than it would have

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been on 1st broadcast.

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And, you know, look, friend of the podcast, Simon said that there

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was a very definite through line from survival to the TV movie to

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Rose, that you can actually see some progression.

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Oh, hang on, including the TV movie.

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I would say survival to rose.

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Well, very definitely, but there is, there are things that the TV

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movie does contribute to the mix.

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And I struggled.

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We've only just recorded our commentary that we released last week

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00:12:29.399 --> 00:12:33.840
and I did struggle to see what that might be, but certainly, you

250
00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:36.600
know, the changing nature of TV production and that kind of thing

251
00:12:36.600 --> 00:12:41.159
at least, and sort of a strong emphasis on the visual and a strong

252
00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:44.220
emphasis on relationships between the companions.

253
00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:47.399
You know, I think maybe that starts to come in there.

254
00:12:47.460 --> 00:12:49.740
So I think it is something that you could watch.

255
00:12:49.799 --> 00:12:53.580
I think, you know, if you are a big fan of the new series, that

256
00:12:53.580 --> 00:12:55.080
you should probably see it.

257
00:12:55.139 --> 00:12:58.679
Yeah, I actually think for fans of the new series, there's a lot

258
00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:03.480
more in the telly movie than there was for us in 1996.

259
00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:04.799
It is closer, isn't it?

260
00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:06.840
With the kisses.

261
00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:09.360
Thank you, Todd.

262
00:13:09.419 --> 00:13:12.120
We need to get...

263
00:13:12.179 --> 00:13:14.820
I can't tell, that was a major schism in fan.

264
00:13:14.879 --> 00:13:15.600
I remember.

265
00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:16.320
Oh my Lordy.

266
00:13:16.379 --> 00:13:19.860
I remember because I said during the commentary last week and I

267
00:13:19.860 --> 00:13:23.399
forgot to follow it up that, you know, the 1st 2 in the park when

268
00:13:23.399 --> 00:13:25.500
he realises who he is and she asked him to do it again.

269
00:13:25.559 --> 00:13:27.960
I had no problem with that because it's like the 1st the 1st one

270
00:13:27.960 --> 00:13:30.840
is he's very excited and the 2nd one, he's just like, oh, she

271
00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:31.440
wants me to do it again.

272
00:13:31.500 --> 00:13:31.860
All right.

273
00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:34.980
I don't know why, you know, play it like a screwball comedy.

274
00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:40.559
But the final one with the fireworks and whatnot is just Hollywood

275
00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:41.279
Drek.

276
00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:45.480
And in his novelisation, Gary changes it to a hug, which I think

277
00:13:45.480 --> 00:13:46.379
is a lot more meaningful.

278
00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:49.620
It's a lot more personal because that kiss, they're kind of like

279
00:13:49.620 --> 00:13:51.480
leaning over a lectern at each other.

280
00:13:51.539 --> 00:13:53.639
There's a football field between them.

281
00:13:53.700 --> 00:13:56.580
You know, there's nothing intimate about it.

282
00:13:56.639 --> 00:13:57.659
It's a special effect shot.

283
00:13:57.779 --> 00:14:02.159
Well, people did sort of see it as the Americanisation of Doctor

284
00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:06.539
Who around about the time you've got Scully and Mulder with their

285
00:14:06.539 --> 00:14:09.659
sort of chemistry and that kind of thing.

286
00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:12.659
And, you know, it was turning the doctor into a leading man.

287
00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:16.200
But you got to remember when Russell brings the show back.

288
00:14:16.379 --> 00:14:19.860
He doesn't want the doctor to be the sort of, I think his words

289
00:14:19.860 --> 00:14:24.240
are neutered public schoolboy, that he had always been.

290
00:14:24.299 --> 00:14:31.740
And so there is a real kind of take a drink, Frisson, you know

291
00:14:31.740 --> 00:14:36.600
between Rose and the doctor, Rose and Eccleston's doctor.

292
00:14:36.659 --> 00:14:38.519
You do have to take an archetype, though.

293
00:14:38.580 --> 00:14:43.139
The doctorate has always been, as we've often said, a singulaka of

294
00:14:43.139 --> 00:14:44.220
so many other good things.

295
00:14:44.279 --> 00:14:46.200
There's nothing new about Doctor Who.

296
00:14:46.259 --> 00:14:48.299
There was nothing new about any of Sidney Newman's thinking.

297
00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:51.779
And if we look considered Newman's ideas for the show, going right

298
00:14:51.779 --> 00:14:52.139
back.

299
00:14:52.200 --> 00:14:54.299
Very little of it progressed to the screen.

300
00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:58.679
Thankfully, just as in the Avengers. very little of his stuff

301
00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:00.059
actually came good.

302
00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:04.080
And the reasons we remember it. happenstance, cleverness, and in

303
00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:07.320
that Avengers Coast, Leonard White, or in our case, Ferdie Lambert

304
00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:10.620
or in this case, if we're still talking about the telly movie, What

305
00:15:10.620 --> 00:15:11.039
was it?

306
00:15:11.100 --> 00:15:13.620
Little moments between the actors that make it work.

307
00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:18.600
And I think I think a lot of what is good and recognisable in the

308
00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:21.779
telling movie is down to Matthew Jacobs, who was a fan.

309
00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:24.600
He had a familial involvement in the show, as we mentioned last

310
00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:27.720
week, son of Anthony Jacobs, who played Doc Holiday in the

311
00:15:27.720 --> 00:15:31.019
Gunfighters, and he had a real passion for it.

312
00:15:31.080 --> 00:15:33.840
And as you said last week, Richard, a lot of the kind of real

313
00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:36.419
shoehorned fan references in there actually came.

314
00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:37.620
They fit so well, don't they?

315
00:15:38.460 --> 00:15:40.320
actually came from Philip.

316
00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:46.320
Siegel, who, to his credit, I think he was trying to do what was

317
00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:50.100
JNT's downfall, which was a pease.

318
00:15:50.460 --> 00:15:54.419
So do you consider him to be your hero of the era if I put a

319
00:15:54.419 --> 00:15:55.019
question like that?

320
00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:56.759
Who is your hero of the era?

321
00:15:56.820 --> 00:15:58.500
The McGann era?

322
00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:00.059
Which is basically the telling me.

323
00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:02.100
Okay, well, you know, mentioning the Levines.

324
00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:05.340
It was Randy and Mark Loficier, who were the Levines on this

325
00:16:05.340 --> 00:16:08.580
script and who were sending him the notes, which ended up on

326
00:16:08.580 --> 00:16:08.879
screen.

327
00:16:08.940 --> 00:16:13.200
There was that emendation to the opening dialogue, the opening

328
00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:18.360
monologue, remember, that the doctor has 13 lives, and I think the

329
00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:19.500
original script said 12.

330
00:16:19.860 --> 00:16:23.700
What that was, when the doctor turns around to Grace in her condo

331
00:16:23.700 --> 00:16:27.720
and says, I have 13 lives, they have to add DR. mute the audio.

332
00:16:27.779 --> 00:16:28.440
Watch his lips.

333
00:16:28.500 --> 00:16:29.039
He says 12.

334
00:16:29.340 --> 00:16:29.700
Yeah.

335
00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:30.120
Yeah.

336
00:16:30.179 --> 00:16:30.960
Wow.

337
00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:33.720
And the Lefisier's caught that and went.

338
00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:37.980
And the thing is, though, the thing is, yes, it's a role one.

339
00:16:37.980 --> 00:16:39.779
No one cares.

340
00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:41.639
We don't even care.

341
00:16:41.700 --> 00:16:45.960
Like, literally, maybe 100,000 people are part of the US audience

342
00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:48.779
and maybe a 1000000 people of the UK audience would have actually

343
00:16:48.779 --> 00:16:51.480
sat there and gone, well, I'm switching this off now.

344
00:16:51.539 --> 00:16:53.279
You've got it all wrong.

345
00:16:53.340 --> 00:16:57.120
I mean, so the officiers are your hero of the era.

346
00:16:57.179 --> 00:17:00.299
Oh, anti-heroes. starting with the anti-heroes thing.

347
00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:05.339
But if we're saying the McGann era, it's um, it's the great stuff

348
00:17:05.339 --> 00:17:06.960
that was done with Big Finish.

349
00:17:07.019 --> 00:17:10.079
And I think if we're talking about antecedents to the new show, the

350
00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:13.980
big finish audios are just as strongly, if not more so, because we

351
00:17:13.980 --> 00:17:17.220
have some of the writers involved now too, than this telly movie.

352
00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:19.079
This was just a little springboard, little push.

353
00:17:19.619 --> 00:17:23.700
In terms of my hero of the film, you know, I think Paul does a

354
00:17:23.700 --> 00:17:24.539
great job.

355
00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:30.839
And I did just praise Matthew Jacobs, but despite really the sort

356
00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:33.599
of fan wank attitude he took, he took to continuity.

357
00:17:33.660 --> 00:17:37.019
I do have to praise Philip Siegel because I've seen him in

358
00:17:37.019 --> 00:17:41.279
interviews and to him, this wasn't just, hey, I can make a really

359
00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:42.480
lucrative TV show.

360
00:17:42.539 --> 00:17:46.380
This was him going, this is a wonderful idea with potential.

361
00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:50.400
He worked in television, so he understood why the BBC had taken

362
00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:51.059
off the air.

363
00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:53.519
And one of the reasons they taken it off the air was they couldn't

364
00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:58.319
afford to make it as good as it should look because I think we

365
00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:01.740
were all in agreement that most of Sylvester's scripts were of a

366
00:18:01.740 --> 00:18:03.839
high quality let down by production values.

367
00:18:04.019 --> 00:18:08.940
But yeah, his attitude was, okay, if we need the money, I'm going

368
00:18:08.940 --> 00:18:09.599
to get the money.

369
00:18:09.660 --> 00:18:13.619
And frankly, if he wasn't passionate about it, he wouldn't have

370
00:18:13.619 --> 00:18:19.319
worked for 7 years across 4 different jobs trying to get it made.

371
00:18:19.980 --> 00:18:24.359
For me, it's whoever decided not to do a reboot.

372
00:18:24.420 --> 00:18:26.759
Look, I don't care about continuity.

373
00:18:26.819 --> 00:18:29.279
I think Doctor Who has an extremely loose continuity.

374
00:18:29.339 --> 00:18:33.059
I've said before, you know, regeneration is a stupid idea, but

375
00:18:33.059 --> 00:18:36.779
it's just enough to explain why we keep recasting the main role

376
00:18:36.779 --> 00:18:38.160
every 3 or 4 years.

377
00:18:39.539 --> 00:18:43.500
There is a continuity in the sense that it's existed as a single

378
00:18:43.500 --> 00:18:47.880
television show for sort of 50 something years and it's lovely to

379
00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:52.980
think that it was never rebooted, you know, like we can still

380
00:18:52.980 --> 00:18:57.000
refer to the macra if we want to because that's fun. you know.

381
00:18:57.059 --> 00:18:59.400
And so that through line.

382
00:18:59.460 --> 00:19:03.000
You know, the fact that in human nature we get to see all of those

383
00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:07.079
doctors for the 1st time, including McGann, you know, on the

384
00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:11.400
screen, and, you know, the fact that he can come back for the 50th

385
00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:15.359
anniversary and participate and, you know, bring something new to

386
00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:16.859
the show's mythology.

387
00:19:16.920 --> 00:19:19.740
I think that's really lovely.

388
00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:25.619
And so I would have hated for either the telemovie or the 2005

389
00:19:25.619 --> 00:19:27.420
series to be a reboot.

390
00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:28.380
That would have been a shame.

391
00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:32.160
Um, It's kind of weird who decided to make it a continuation

392
00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:37.079
because the BBC wanted it to be a continuation, but Joe Wright and

393
00:19:37.079 --> 00:19:43.319
Alan Yentob were not keen to have Silv back because he was seen as

394
00:19:43.319 --> 00:19:46.920
his era was seen internally as being a failure.

395
00:19:46.980 --> 00:19:48.839
And why remind the audience that that happened?

396
00:19:48.900 --> 00:19:52.920
So there was lots of talk about bringing Tom Baker back for the

397
00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:54.299
1st few minutes of the film.

398
00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:57.720
But again, it was Philip Siegel, who said, if we're bringing back

399
00:19:57.720 --> 00:20:01.079
an old doctor, we're making it a direct continuation, we owe that

400
00:20:01.079 --> 00:20:04.619
to the fans, we either either reboot it or...

401
00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:07.079
Yeah, well, McGann, it was McGann that was bringing him in saying

402
00:20:07.079 --> 00:20:07.740
he's my mate.

403
00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:10.140
He told me to run for this in the 1st place and say hello to you

404
00:20:10.140 --> 00:20:12.480
all, because the hanging gale, the sequel had seen.

405
00:20:12.539 --> 00:20:16.680
There was a whole lot of that happenstance coincidence and enemy

406
00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:18.599
action, as says in Goldfinger.

407
00:20:18.660 --> 00:20:21.480
Yeah, but, you know, it was, it was, began's doing the God.

408
00:20:21.539 --> 00:20:23.519
Well, that's very interesting, Brendan.

409
00:20:23.579 --> 00:20:28.079
And certainly, you know, I wouldn't have put Seagull up there as

410
00:20:28.079 --> 00:20:31.740
my hero. of the era but now that you've just said that, you know

411
00:20:31.740 --> 00:20:32.880
I'd certainly put him up there.

412
00:20:32.940 --> 00:20:36.059
The other person is McGann, who I think has very little to work

413
00:20:36.059 --> 00:20:39.420
with and does a great job. in the 70 odd minutes.

414
00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:40.200
He's actually on screen.

415
00:20:40.259 --> 00:20:41.339
I think he's extraordinary.

416
00:20:41.400 --> 00:20:44.339
He just looks like someone who isn't, as you've said, when you've

417
00:20:44.339 --> 00:20:46.559
had dinner with him yourself, and when other people have said, when

418
00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:49.019
they sat with him, he looks like someone who's just slightly

419
00:20:49.019 --> 00:20:52.619
uncomfortable with the whole idea of being a part of this, which

420
00:20:52.619 --> 00:20:55.740
is exactly what you want in an actor playing the doctor.

421
00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:58.079
I don't want someone to play it like Brian Blessed.

422
00:20:58.140 --> 00:20:59.339
Yeah, yeah.

423
00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:03.480
The impression we always get from Paul McGann is that he's very

424
00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:05.940
grateful that it's liked, but he doesn't quite understand what all

425
00:21:05.940 --> 00:21:06.660
the fuss is about.

426
00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:10.680
He's just he just goes on and says the words kind of thing. of how

427
00:21:10.680 --> 00:21:12.900
the doctor is supposed to be, which is muddling through.

428
00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:15.180
We will get that with the next doctor, obviously.

429
00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:15.779
Yes.

430
00:21:15.900 --> 00:21:20.220
But yeah, I can't I can't fault any of the 4 leads, and I consider

431
00:21:20.220 --> 00:21:24.539
the leads to be Paul, Daphne, Yee Yee, and Eric Roberts.

432
00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:27.000
And at the time, Eric Roberts was hated.

433
00:21:27.059 --> 00:21:27.779
Do you guys remember?

434
00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:29.099
Oh, yeah.

435
00:21:29.160 --> 00:21:31.799
And even I didn't like him, but now I think he actually brings a

436
00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:32.400
lot to that role.

437
00:21:32.460 --> 00:21:35.220
He brings lightness and campiness and we need some of that.

438
00:21:35.460 --> 00:21:38.160
It's taking itself very seriously.

439
00:21:38.220 --> 00:21:40.799
You know, and I think something else it brings is, you know, the

440
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:42.359
doctor is a very British hero.

441
00:21:42.420 --> 00:21:43.380
He's drinking tea.

442
00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:44.519
He has jelly babies.

443
00:21:44.579 --> 00:21:45.779
He's wearing a frock coat.

444
00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:49.500
And the master in this is a very American villain.

445
00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:51.539
You know, he's dressed in black leather.

446
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:53.039
He's cackling, he's laughing.

447
00:21:53.099 --> 00:21:54.180
He's got an American accent.

448
00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:57.900
You know, he looks like the term... his TV, Eric Roberts.

449
00:21:57.960 --> 00:22:00.720
Just like every casting situation in America.

450
00:22:00.779 --> 00:22:01.920
He's dripping in guns.

451
00:22:04.259 --> 00:22:07.140
Too soon, Mr. Weinstein, too soon.

452
00:22:07.140 --> 00:22:11.460
We do need to move on from the era, but before we do, I guess I'd

453
00:22:11.460 --> 00:22:15.420
like to ask you, who gets the Jenny Laird award?

454
00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:17.160
Oh yeah, we didn't do that last week.

455
00:22:17.220 --> 00:22:18.720
Jenny Laird Award for the telly movie.

456
00:22:18.779 --> 00:22:19.019
Gosh.

457
00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:20.640
The officio's.

458
00:22:20.700 --> 00:22:25.740
If you've read the book, the, um, the, um, um, doctor or the nth

459
00:22:25.740 --> 00:22:29.339
doctor, it was great because Siegel just said they stole all the

460
00:22:29.339 --> 00:22:33.299
material and betrayed his trust and yeah, those 2 wrote it, but

461
00:22:33.299 --> 00:22:35.880
listen, get, look up what Siegel says about those two.

462
00:22:35.940 --> 00:22:38.880
He's filthy about them because they really did.

463
00:22:38.940 --> 00:22:43.259
They really did run away with stuff that was, you know, supposedly

464
00:22:43.259 --> 00:22:46.319
in creative work. you say these things and you write these things

465
00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:48.599
and that they just went off with it and made money with it.

466
00:22:48.660 --> 00:22:52.259
It's a shame because it is a fantastic book and it is very well

467
00:22:52.259 --> 00:22:52.559
written.

468
00:22:52.619 --> 00:22:53.880
Yeah, I love the anth stock.

469
00:22:53.940 --> 00:22:57.059
And you know, Timothy Dalton was in the frame for one, for the

470
00:22:57.059 --> 00:22:59.940
jewels of time, Denny Martin Flynn version of the film.

471
00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:02.640
But anyway, sorry, Nathan, you're Jenny Laird.

472
00:23:02.700 --> 00:23:07.680
Well, I think my Jenny Laird award goes to just the fundamental

473
00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:12.839
misunderstanding of the show, which has been a problem since the

474
00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:17.279
80s, which is this is a cult science fiction show for a small

475
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:21.480
group of obsessive teenage boys.

476
00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:24.359
And so that's how we're going to reintroduce it.

477
00:23:24.359 --> 00:23:28.680
And we're going to fling as much mythology at the screen as we

478
00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:31.619
possibly can in as short a time as possible.

479
00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:35.400
And you'll notice when it comes back, we don't get any of that.

480
00:23:35.460 --> 00:23:38.579
And that was, that's what ruins it, I think.

481
00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:41.759
Oh, look, that's a good one, I certainly think.

482
00:23:41.819 --> 00:23:44.099
I support you in that nomination.

483
00:23:44.220 --> 00:23:46.079
I do have another.

484
00:23:46.140 --> 00:23:47.819
The wig.

485
00:23:49.619 --> 00:23:52.079
The worst wigs insanely.

486
00:23:52.140 --> 00:23:55.079
I'm going to say something very specific, which is.

487
00:23:55.259 --> 00:23:59.579
So I suppose it's either Jeffrey Sachs or Patrick Lassier, who, in

488
00:23:59.579 --> 00:24:02.039
general, otherwise do a very good job, so that's the director and

489
00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:02.640
the editor.

490
00:24:02.700 --> 00:24:06.240
But I do believe the film should have opened in San Francisco.

491
00:24:06.299 --> 00:24:08.339
The TARDIS lands, the doctor steps out.

492
00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:09.240
We have no idea who he is.

493
00:24:09.299 --> 00:24:10.380
We've never seen the inside.

494
00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:15.480
All that stuff they shot leading up to that. is just a flashback

495
00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:18.059
later on when the doctor arrives back in the Tartis and explains

496
00:24:18.059 --> 00:24:19.980
to Grace how we got in all this mess.

497
00:24:20.220 --> 00:24:21.900
Don't do that.

498
00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:26.220
But, you know, that way you still you still get Sylvester in the

499
00:24:26.220 --> 00:24:27.839
story, but it sets up a mystery.

500
00:24:27.900 --> 00:24:31.079
It gives you a bit of breathing space when you get back in in the

501
00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:34.619
TARDIS towards the end and that would be kind of the top of act

502
00:24:34.619 --> 00:24:35.039
three.

503
00:24:35.099 --> 00:24:36.720
This was kind of written with a 3 act.

504
00:24:36.779 --> 00:24:38.339
Sorry, a 6 act structure, I have to say.

505
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:39.539
So this is the top of act five.

506
00:24:39.599 --> 00:24:42.480
You know, Grace finally loses it and says, you know, what is this

507
00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:42.720
place?

508
00:24:42.779 --> 00:24:43.259
Who are you?

509
00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:45.599
And he says, I'm a I am a time lord.

510
00:24:45.660 --> 00:24:49.019
He is also a timelord, and this is why I changed my face.

511
00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:51.599
And you have it as a flashback then.

512
00:24:51.660 --> 00:24:54.359
And that way you still get the big reveal at the Tatus when Chang

513
00:24:54.359 --> 00:24:57.779
Li steps inside, which is one of the most magical moments of the

514
00:24:57.779 --> 00:24:58.079
film.

515
00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:03.779
And the way that is shot informs Rose and Martha's 1st look inside

516
00:25:03.779 --> 00:25:07.259
the Tatus, and especially Catherine Tate, who runs outside the

517
00:25:07.259 --> 00:25:10.019
Tatus, and runs around the back of it like Chang Li does.

518
00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:15.420
So, yeah, I think with that simple reedit, the film would have

519
00:25:15.420 --> 00:25:16.980
been better received by the general public.

520
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:19.140
Hey, it doesn't matter to us as fans.

521
00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:22.859
We know that the big interior he's in is in that little box that's

522
00:25:22.859 --> 00:25:23.339
spinning around.

523
00:25:23.339 --> 00:25:26.940
And it wasn't until like 2001 that someone pointed out to me.

524
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:30.000
You know, how confusing would that have been?

525
00:25:30.059 --> 00:25:33.420
And then I went, actually, yeah, you know, it's fine for me, but

526
00:25:33.420 --> 00:25:34.680
how confusing is that for everyone else?

527
00:25:34.740 --> 00:25:39.299
The way the way to write the structure of this screenplay is not

528
00:25:39.299 --> 00:25:40.799
something that's happened since this film.

529
00:25:40.859 --> 00:25:45.119
You go back to any Hitchcock under David Selznik, and you can see

530
00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:46.920
how to set this film up.

531
00:25:46.980 --> 00:25:48.359
It's all about anticipation.

532
00:25:48.420 --> 00:25:51.660
Okay, it doesn't necessarily have to be through a thriller.

533
00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:52.920
It's simply for a reveal.

534
00:25:52.980 --> 00:25:55.680
And I would not, I'm talking about the birds. actually talking

535
00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:59.579
about the earlier films like spellbound, notorious, any of the

536
00:25:59.579 --> 00:26:03.299
ones that he did where you've got this assemblage of there aren't

537
00:26:03.299 --> 00:26:04.079
that many players in this.

538
00:26:04.140 --> 00:26:05.579
So it's not actually hard to structure.

539
00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:08.819
Maybe we should look at doing that at a subsequent story and just

540
00:26:08.819 --> 00:26:10.259
see how we would have rewritten this.

541
00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:13.259
Haven't had time to think about it yet, but I would go back to

542
00:26:13.259 --> 00:26:14.759
look at Rebecca. for example.

543
00:26:14.819 --> 00:26:15.599
Yeah, yeah.

544
00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:16.920
See how we filmed that.

545
00:26:16.980 --> 00:26:19.259
Any final thoughts on the 8th doctor?

546
00:26:20.220 --> 00:26:22.319
I thought he was great.

547
00:26:22.380 --> 00:26:27.180
He did the best job he could with not even bad material, but just

548
00:26:27.180 --> 00:26:30.359
as I think I've used a word before, mediocre material.

549
00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:34.500
And that's not an indictment of Matthew Jacobs, as you said

550
00:26:34.500 --> 00:26:37.500
Richard. kind of the 1st 3rd is Matthew Jacobs.

551
00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:38.220
And you know what?

552
00:26:38.279 --> 00:26:40.920
Knowing that now you can really feel the shifting quality.

553
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:44.279
I think, you know, that kind of coincides from when the eye of

554
00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:45.180
harmony opens.

555
00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:48.000
All of the stuff with the doctor and grace in her condo before

556
00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:51.180
that is magnificent character building and then after that it

557
00:26:51.180 --> 00:26:52.019
becomes a car chase.

558
00:27:43.079 --> 00:27:46.079
We recently finished watching the McCoy era.

559
00:27:46.140 --> 00:27:52.619
Having seen that all through, how have you left feeling those 3

560
00:27:52.619 --> 00:27:52.859
years?

561
00:27:53.579 --> 00:28:00.119
I think that it's one of my favourite eras of the classic series

562
00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:04.680
and part of that is, we've said before, the sense of relief that

563
00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:09.900
the cold dead hand of Seywood has gone from the show, he's one of

564
00:28:09.900 --> 00:28:14.220
the podcasts, he's our evil nemesis, I think, on the podcast.

565
00:28:14.279 --> 00:28:18.779
His, his, yeah, his Sutex pillow plumper, isn't he?

566
00:28:19.799 --> 00:28:21.299
Which you can now purchase.

567
00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:25.920
Yes, yes, Dear Clayton Hickman has a red bubble store and you can

568
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:28.079
buy a black cushion with a hand on it.

569
00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:31.680
So Nathan, who is your hero of this era?

570
00:28:31.799 --> 00:28:32.640
Carmel?

571
00:28:32.700 --> 00:28:33.240
I think.

572
00:28:33.299 --> 00:28:34.920
I mean, you know, he's very young.

573
00:28:34.980 --> 00:28:37.680
He's not sort of massively experienced at this point.

574
00:28:37.740 --> 00:28:42.240
He does have some problems getting scripts to time, but what he

575
00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:46.200
does is something that, say, would claim he was unable to do, which

576
00:28:46.200 --> 00:28:52.019
was find writers that hadn't written for the show before and get

577
00:28:52.019 --> 00:28:55.859
them to do things that the show had never done before.

578
00:28:55.920 --> 00:29:00.480
And I think my runner-up hero is Sylvester McCoy, who I don't

579
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:07.980
think is the best actor ever to have taken the role, but he is fun

580
00:29:07.980 --> 00:29:08.579
to watch.

581
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:14.640
I think he's appealing to watch and the show stops being as nasty

582
00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:16.079
as it had been.

583
00:29:16.140 --> 00:29:21.059
It starts going places that it's never gone before.

584
00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:25.799
It's overtly political, and so it tries to be about something

585
00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:30.660
rather than just being about, you know, the Doctor Who Monster

586
00:29:30.660 --> 00:29:31.019
book.

587
00:29:31.079 --> 00:29:35.940
And so, you know, like I'm really positive about that era of the

588
00:29:35.940 --> 00:29:36.180
show.

589
00:29:37.140 --> 00:29:40.079
My hero of the era is self as well.

590
00:29:40.140 --> 00:29:44.460
Um, because, you know, it's kind of funny.

591
00:29:44.519 --> 00:29:46.859
We talk about behind the scenes on the show.

592
00:29:46.859 --> 00:29:50.519
And, you know, famously, if Tom Baker didn't like something, it

593
00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:52.200
was not going to be a good day on the studio floor.

594
00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:57.299
Whereas it seems that when Silv doesn't like something, he takes

595
00:29:57.299 --> 00:30:01.740
the director or Andrew Cartmel aside and he says, and gets some

596
00:30:01.740 --> 00:30:02.099
drunk.

597
00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:05.339
But he just, he seems to just say to them, well, look, I don't

598
00:30:05.339 --> 00:30:08.099
think the doctor would shoot the bazooka, but why don't we give

599
00:30:08.099 --> 00:30:08.759
that to Ace?

600
00:30:08.819 --> 00:30:10.799
I don't think the doctor would say it this way.

601
00:30:10.859 --> 00:30:12.000
I think he would say it that way.

602
00:30:12.059 --> 00:30:14.279
Oh, okay, you've got a shootout at the end.

603
00:30:14.339 --> 00:30:16.799
Why don't I appeal to the daleks logic?

604
00:30:16.920 --> 00:30:24.119
So, What I love so much about him is that when he thinks the

605
00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:28.980
script doesn't work, he works with the people around him to make

606
00:30:28.980 --> 00:30:31.500
it better rather than just having a strop.

607
00:30:31.740 --> 00:30:37.019
And when he and Sophie talk about when we had guest stars when we

608
00:30:37.019 --> 00:30:38.099
tried to make them feel welcome.

609
00:30:39.180 --> 00:30:42.539
I really get the impression that that is.

610
00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:44.819
The absolute truth.

611
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:47.339
You know, when they talk about the people they worked with.

612
00:30:47.400 --> 00:30:50.160
The only kind of people they talk about were a bit difficult was

613
00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:52.920
Anton Differing, who didn't really want to do the show.

614
00:30:52.980 --> 00:30:54.839
He just wanted to watch the tennis, I think.

615
00:30:54.900 --> 00:30:58.619
And Sophie Aldred says of Anthony Ainley.

616
00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:00.779
No, people say they didn't get on with him, but I got on with it

617
00:31:00.779 --> 00:31:04.380
but I like cricket, you know, so they are just so warm and

618
00:31:04.380 --> 00:31:06.779
complimentary about the people they worked with.

619
00:31:06.779 --> 00:31:13.980
And They cared about getting the right idea across.

620
00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:16.200
Despite the fact that, you know, by that 3rd year, they must have

621
00:31:16.200 --> 00:31:19.619
known that the ratings weren't as large as the production team

622
00:31:19.619 --> 00:31:22.859
were hoping for, but that never diminished their enthusiasm.

623
00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:25.980
Or the quality of the work, which kept ramping up.

624
00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:27.420
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

625
00:31:27.480 --> 00:31:29.700
And, you know, I agree with Nathan that.

626
00:31:29.940 --> 00:31:33.420
He's probably not the finest actor to hold the role or even the

627
00:31:33.420 --> 00:31:38.880
2nd finest, but there's a reason for me that when I score every

628
00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:43.680
story out of 10 that season 25 and 26 are only behind the David

629
00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:46.200
Tennick, Catherine Tate season in terms of an average.

630
00:31:46.259 --> 00:31:52.500
And I think it's due to the way that Silv leads the company.

631
00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:55.619
You know, Andrew Carmel is certainly worthy of praise.

632
00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:59.339
JNT at this point, I think, because he was kind of resigned, the

633
00:31:59.339 --> 00:32:01.980
fact he was here, but he had someone he could trust in the role of

634
00:32:01.980 --> 00:32:02.700
Carmel.

635
00:32:02.819 --> 00:32:04.799
Sophie's great.

636
00:32:04.859 --> 00:32:09.839
Bonnie does her best with very limited material, and at this point

637
00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:12.900
she was not the experienced actress she would later become.

638
00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:17.579
And you know, you look at her work now, and she's on EastEnders

639
00:32:17.579 --> 00:32:20.880
which isn't necessarily seen as the height of drama, but I've seen

640
00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:25.019
some of her stuff on EastEnders, and it could be from a weekly big

641
00:32:25.019 --> 00:32:28.019
budget drama, her, her, um, her grandmother character.

642
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:30.539
So, yeah, it has to be sil for me.

643
00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:31.859
Richard?

644
00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:35.460
Oh, well, it's hard coming in at the end when you've all said

645
00:32:35.460 --> 00:32:37.019
exactly what I feel as well.

646
00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:40.980
Only to say that, like all of these pieces, it's no one person

647
00:32:40.980 --> 00:32:42.299
that makes it work.

648
00:32:42.359 --> 00:32:46.740
It's a melange or simulac or a cake. a big cake.

649
00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:50.460
So it is silf, but it's also Dominic Glynn and Mark Ez and

650
00:32:50.460 --> 00:32:51.480
Cartmoor Land.

651
00:32:51.539 --> 00:32:55.799
It's also Briggs, and it's also Platt, and it's also the more

652
00:32:55.799 --> 00:33:01.019
sitting about, having brainstorms and being creative and realising

653
00:33:01.019 --> 00:33:03.299
that empathy is the thing that we're actually writing about.

654
00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:07.079
And for me, McCoy, at the time, I'm remembering, we have a program

655
00:33:07.079 --> 00:33:09.599
here called Late Night Live, which is still going after almost 40

656
00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:09.900
years.

657
00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:14.700
Um, Philip Adams is the host, the guy who revived the Australian

658
00:33:14.700 --> 00:33:16.740
film industry in the 70s.

659
00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:21.299
And our friend, perhaps not of the broadcast, Kate Norman, was on

660
00:33:21.299 --> 00:33:22.440
his show back in the 90s.

661
00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:24.900
And she said, well, when this was just when this was coming to an

662
00:33:24.900 --> 00:33:29.519
end, And she said he was, um, McCoy is her favourite doctor of all

663
00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:30.599
time at the time.

664
00:33:30.660 --> 00:33:32.700
We tend to say that with the current doctor.

665
00:33:32.759 --> 00:33:38.220
But she had real reasons as a very writer, a very certainly a very

666
00:33:38.220 --> 00:33:41.039
good fan writer, just a writer anyway, to say that.

667
00:33:41.099 --> 00:33:43.380
And I really agree with what she said then, and I remember what

668
00:33:43.380 --> 00:33:48.539
she said in the 90s, which was that we just have someone on screen

669
00:33:48.539 --> 00:33:51.599
the doctor that we can completely involve ourselves with and who

670
00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:55.680
has a depth and a scope of presence on screen that is completely

671
00:33:55.680 --> 00:33:56.460
absorbing.

672
00:33:56.640 --> 00:33:59.940
You also have to focus hard because you can't understand a bloody

673
00:33:59.940 --> 00:34:00.599
word he's saying.

674
00:34:00.660 --> 00:34:01.799
She didn't say that, I did.

675
00:34:01.859 --> 00:34:06.359
But he makes me pay attention and be involved with him.

676
00:34:06.420 --> 00:34:09.780
And for those little moments that you're saying, argue with logic

677
00:34:09.780 --> 00:34:10.980
show some empathy.

678
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:11.519
Not too much.

679
00:34:11.579 --> 00:34:12.780
Don't crowd the scene.

680
00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:14.460
Just a little bit.

681
00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:16.679
No, there's so much reward to coming back to this.

682
00:34:16.739 --> 00:34:19.800
I've enjoyed this much more than I did at the time and I liked it

683
00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:20.219
at the time.

684
00:34:20.699 --> 00:34:24.480
Look, I agree with a lot of what everybody else has said

685
00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:24.900
listeners.

686
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:30.480
I think Andrew Cartnell and his approach and the freshness and the

687
00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:35.699
newness, um, he's a real hero and I think the empathy that

688
00:34:35.699 --> 00:34:37.500
Sylvester projects.

689
00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:41.099
And, you know, yeah, the quieter moments.

690
00:34:41.159 --> 00:34:43.800
I think there's a real, there's a presence there, and I think that

691
00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:49.199
for me, those 2 really, as well as the musical people that we've

692
00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:51.780
discussed are certainly the heroes of this era.

693
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:56.340
Okay, if we're having a hero, we do have the anti-hero or what I

694
00:34:56.340 --> 00:34:57.599
would call the villain of the era.

695
00:34:57.659 --> 00:35:01.139
And mine goes to Kev McCulloch.

696
00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:06.420
Um, um, except for the theme music, which I really like, but

697
00:35:06.420 --> 00:35:10.199
basically every single score, except for the Daleks.

698
00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:13.380
I do have 2 runners up and that is the director of Paradise Towers

699
00:35:13.380 --> 00:35:16.500
and the director of Battlefield, who I think just got it so wrong

700
00:35:16.500 --> 00:35:17.639
or just didn't bother to direct.

701
00:35:17.699 --> 00:35:19.559
So is that Mallet and Kerrigan?

702
00:35:19.619 --> 00:35:22.559
That's Mallet, who at least redeems himself with a cursive

703
00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:22.920
Fendrick.

704
00:35:22.980 --> 00:35:24.539
But I'm with Todd, Michael Kerrigan.

705
00:35:24.599 --> 00:35:26.280
Michael Kerrigan is my villain in the year.

706
00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:28.739
Just harsh but fair.

707
00:35:28.860 --> 00:35:33.599
Yeah, just his direction of battlefield is just so flat.

708
00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:39.179
And I've read an interview where someone from the, from one of the

709
00:35:39.179 --> 00:35:41.880
actors, I can't remember exactly who, but essentially said that

710
00:35:41.880 --> 00:35:45.539
Michael Kerrigan considered himself as slumming it in this story

711
00:35:45.539 --> 00:35:47.880
so just kind of took a point the cameras and get the shot over

712
00:35:47.880 --> 00:35:48.539
with a broach.

713
00:35:48.599 --> 00:35:51.960
But, you know, I think I've said this before, that if one of your

714
00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:54.840
worst stories of an era is battlefield.

715
00:35:54.900 --> 00:35:56.280
Yeah, you're doing okay.

716
00:35:56.340 --> 00:36:00.119
For me, battlefield is like the time monster.

717
00:36:00.179 --> 00:36:03.179
It's just terrifically enjoyable.

718
00:36:03.239 --> 00:36:05.039
The unit thing helps.

719
00:36:05.099 --> 00:36:07.739
You know, you've got the doctor has a whole bunch of friends

720
00:36:07.739 --> 00:36:09.420
working with him in it.

721
00:36:09.480 --> 00:36:13.380
I always love it when that happens and it's just sunny and there's

722
00:36:13.380 --> 00:36:14.460
lots of location stuff.

723
00:36:14.519 --> 00:36:15.840
So it is terrible.

724
00:36:15.900 --> 00:36:18.179
It's got CEF and it's got Michael Kerrigan.

725
00:36:18.239 --> 00:36:20.579
But I can't bring myself to hate it.

726
00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:24.599
Oh yeah, I don't, I don't hate it, but yeah, I just feel, it's the

727
00:36:24.599 --> 00:36:27.059
weakest direction of the whole era.

728
00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:28.320
Even so.

729
00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:30.599
Still doesn't look that bad.

730
00:36:30.659 --> 00:36:32.940
Oh yeah, every, you know, everyone's in shock.

731
00:36:33.420 --> 00:36:35.340
I'm being shot.

732
00:36:35.820 --> 00:36:37.559
There's a title.

733
00:36:37.619 --> 00:36:40.739
The camera only moves when it's meant to, yeah, you know.

734
00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:41.460
All right.

735
00:36:41.519 --> 00:36:42.539
My next question.

736
00:36:42.599 --> 00:36:46.500
Well, there's actually 3 of them, and it's just, I just wanted an

737
00:36:46.500 --> 00:36:48.840
answer off the top of your head without reasons.

738
00:36:48.900 --> 00:36:49.619
Okay.

739
00:36:49.679 --> 00:36:51.599
So, one to watch.

740
00:36:51.659 --> 00:36:54.179
Oh, um, because Fenrick.

741
00:36:54.659 --> 00:36:56.760
Greatest Show in the Galaxy.

742
00:36:56.820 --> 00:37:00.000
The campy bits and silver nemesis. which is everything.

743
00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:01.619
Remembrance of the Daleks.

744
00:37:01.679 --> 00:37:03.599
Nice, probably the right answer, actually.

745
00:37:03.780 --> 00:37:07.559
I had the nice questions, so I had a bit of time.

746
00:37:07.619 --> 00:37:09.000
The reference is the stand-up one actually.

747
00:37:09.059 --> 00:37:10.500
And the 1st one you go back to.

748
00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:11.460
It's extraordinary.

749
00:37:11.519 --> 00:37:12.900
Okay, one to avoid.

750
00:37:16.500 --> 00:37:19.320
Dragonfire, even though it's hard.

751
00:37:19.380 --> 00:37:20.280
Okay, quickly.

752
00:37:20.340 --> 00:37:22.920
I'm tending towards Dragonfire as well.

753
00:37:23.099 --> 00:37:26.639
I apologise to Richard now, but I'm saying Silver Nemesis.

754
00:37:26.699 --> 00:37:27.539
That's good.

755
00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:28.619
I like your answer.

756
00:37:28.679 --> 00:37:30.179
I'm going to Paradise Chalice people.

757
00:37:30.239 --> 00:37:31.079
You'll know why.

758
00:37:31.139 --> 00:37:34.800
Okay, and one to be made into a feature film starring Sylvester

759
00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:35.159
McCoy.

760
00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:36.900
Oh, oh, oh.

761
00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:37.980
Remembrance.

762
00:37:38.039 --> 00:37:38.760
Happiness Patrol.

763
00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:42.239
Now stop it because that's my answer too.

764
00:37:42.300 --> 00:37:43.619
Yeah, now I'm going with that.

765
00:37:43.679 --> 00:37:46.860
Because you could do it all as film noir.

766
00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:48.000
I'm not feeding you, Nathan.

767
00:37:48.059 --> 00:37:50.519
No, no, but no, you're exactly right, Richard.

768
00:37:50.579 --> 00:37:52.320
Do it as an awesome Wales film noir.

769
00:37:52.619 --> 00:37:55.320
With some German expressionistic.

770
00:37:55.380 --> 00:37:56.880
Got so much depth to it, you know?

771
00:37:56.880 --> 00:37:58.139
It really does, though, doesn't it?

772
00:37:58.199 --> 00:38:03.119
Yeah, with Marlena Dietrich as Helen A. No, there's only one Helen

773
00:38:03.119 --> 00:38:06.300
A. Sheila Hancock's still with us.

774
00:38:06.599 --> 00:38:08.099
All right.

775
00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:09.719
That's McCoy era.

776
00:38:09.780 --> 00:38:10.800
We shall now move on.

777
00:38:41.099 --> 00:38:45.780
Okay, we're now to the Colin Baker era, and I will put it out

778
00:38:45.780 --> 00:38:46.079
there.

779
00:38:46.139 --> 00:38:51.360
What have you discovered, learnt positive negative about the

780
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:52.679
rewatch in this era?

781
00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:59.219
So I've learned that Colin Baker has some real strengths in the

782
00:38:59.219 --> 00:39:07.139
role and that includes his comic timing and whenever he is silly

783
00:39:07.139 --> 00:39:10.440
or whenever he's being made fun of.

784
00:39:10.500 --> 00:39:13.980
He's really quite loveable.

785
00:39:14.039 --> 00:39:16.079
And that's not how we see him generally.

786
00:39:16.139 --> 00:39:16.920
Do you know what I mean?

787
00:39:16.980 --> 00:39:21.239
Like the idea is that he's abrasive and self-centred and bombastic

788
00:39:21.239 --> 00:39:22.380
and all of that sort of thing.

789
00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:25.679
And I don't find that aspect of him very enjoyable to watch.

790
00:39:25.739 --> 00:39:29.820
But like grabbing his teddy bear off hunker and tandral in the

791
00:39:29.820 --> 00:39:31.019
mysterious part.

792
00:39:31.019 --> 00:39:34.800
Or, you know, like trying and failing to repair the TARDIS and all

793
00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:35.699
of those kinds of things.

794
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:39.599
I think he's terribly sweet and I wasn't really aware of that

795
00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:40.019
before.

796
00:39:40.079 --> 00:39:41.519
Okay, others?

797
00:39:41.579 --> 00:39:45.000
I think it highlights a difference that I just mentioned with Silv

798
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:47.519
because Silv knew that the program was in trouble.

799
00:39:47.579 --> 00:39:51.719
So when he was saying, oh, I want to make this as best as I can as

800
00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:53.880
possible, that was part of his thinking for the arguing I

801
00:39:53.880 --> 00:39:54.179
mentioned.

802
00:39:54.599 --> 00:39:58.199
No one told the production office that Doctor Who was in trouble

803
00:39:58.199 --> 00:40:01.739
until they'd already finished shooting Colin's 1st season.

804
00:40:01.860 --> 00:40:06.300
So as far as Colin and Nicola knew, they were doing exactly what

805
00:40:06.300 --> 00:40:07.320
was being asked of them.

806
00:40:07.380 --> 00:40:13.320
And then to have that gut punch at the end of, actually, we're not

807
00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:15.840
happy with what you've been doing when no one has made any of

808
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:21.480
those noises during the whole job, for both of them to stay with

809
00:40:21.480 --> 00:40:24.539
the show and say, actually, you know what?

810
00:40:24.599 --> 00:40:26.699
Some of those criticisms are valid, we're going to address that

811
00:40:26.699 --> 00:40:27.960
we're going to change our performances.

812
00:40:28.019 --> 00:40:32.039
It's very big of them both as actors when really the problems of

813
00:40:32.039 --> 00:40:35.159
the show, I don't think, well, anything to do with them.

814
00:40:35.219 --> 00:40:36.840
It was direction they were given.

815
00:40:36.900 --> 00:40:40.619
I've always liked Collins doctor on television.

816
00:40:40.679 --> 00:40:44.639
When I was a kid, John and Sil were my favourite doctors, as I

817
00:40:44.639 --> 00:40:49.980
became an adult, it became Patrick and Colin, and with Patrick, and

818
00:40:49.980 --> 00:40:52.139
I'll talk about this more later, it's what he does.

819
00:40:52.199 --> 00:40:56.519
And with Colin, it's what I can see, he's trying to do.

820
00:40:56.519 --> 00:41:02.460
And there are so many of those loud bombastic moments where, You

821
00:41:02.460 --> 00:41:07.440
can then see he he goes very quiet and he's trying to inject a bit

822
00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:12.059
more depth to it, which the script in the direction isn't isn't

823
00:41:12.059 --> 00:41:13.019
allowing.

824
00:41:13.079 --> 00:41:18.179
So what, yeah, what I feel about that era is, It's tragic that in

825
00:41:18.179 --> 00:41:20.760
order to allow the actors to play the parts more like they

826
00:41:20.760 --> 00:41:21.599
envisioned them.

827
00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:26.940
It took getting the show taken off the air for JNT to start

828
00:41:26.940 --> 00:41:30.659
listening to his leading actors when they were saying things like

829
00:41:30.659 --> 00:41:33.239
oh, you know, yes, I want the character to be a bit abrasive, but

830
00:41:33.239 --> 00:41:34.559
I don't want him to be shouting all the time.

831
00:41:34.679 --> 00:41:37.380
Okay, no, I'm shouting, fine, if you're really sure.

832
00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:39.179
So they trusted the production crew.

833
00:41:39.719 --> 00:41:43.559
And the production crew trusted the big brass and no one was

834
00:41:43.559 --> 00:41:44.940
properly talking to each other.

835
00:41:45.059 --> 00:41:49.019
You know, it's a bit like that story with Ken Dodd later on in

836
00:41:49.019 --> 00:41:52.019
Delta and the Bannermen, where they're sitting in the van going, oh

837
00:41:52.019 --> 00:41:52.860
his performance is terrible.

838
00:41:52.920 --> 00:41:55.079
We're going to write him out and still sitting there going, no

839
00:41:55.079 --> 00:42:01.500
tell him, you know, um, so, what, what comes through to me is, I

840
00:42:01.500 --> 00:42:04.739
can just see what he's trying to do, and it's a shame that by the

841
00:42:04.739 --> 00:42:09.539
time we get that, we only get 4 stories of, of Colin's doctor.

842
00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:13.440
I really think we don't see Cohen's doctor all that much in his

843
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:16.920
1st season, but by his 2nd season, he's on he's on top of the

844
00:42:16.920 --> 00:42:17.099
part.

845
00:42:17.699 --> 00:42:24.480
I just wanted to say too, that the 2nd thing that struck me is how

846
00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:27.420
disappointing the treatment of Perry is.

847
00:42:27.480 --> 00:42:33.659
The female lead of the show has for 3 years been fabulous gobby

848
00:42:33.659 --> 00:42:40.019
Australian, you know, air hostess, who... is... whom I adored at

849
00:42:40.019 --> 00:42:40.320
the time.

850
00:42:40.380 --> 00:42:41.579
I just thought she was fabulous.

851
00:42:41.639 --> 00:42:44.099
Sorry, I remember not tuning into Arc of Infinity episode one

852
00:42:44.099 --> 00:42:49.679
because I was so angry that she'd been left behind at the end.

853
00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:50.460
It was actually a shock.

854
00:42:50.519 --> 00:42:53.099
There were a lot of dropped jaws in the playground. the next

855
00:42:53.099 --> 00:42:53.340
time.

856
00:42:53.400 --> 00:42:54.119
I was furious.

857
00:42:54.179 --> 00:42:55.980
And I think she's a wonderful character.

858
00:42:56.039 --> 00:42:58.199
I think she plays off Pete really very well.

859
00:42:58.260 --> 00:43:01.800
And they replace her with someone who exists basically to be ogled

860
00:43:01.800 --> 00:43:03.119
and manhandled by men.

861
00:43:03.119 --> 00:43:09.900
And there is no companion who has had a worse time on the show.

862
00:43:09.960 --> 00:43:12.780
If you imagine that they're a real person undergoing this.

863
00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:17.820
We thought Sarah Jane had a pretty bad time, but Perry's time was

864
00:43:17.820 --> 00:43:18.659
vastly worse.

865
00:43:18.719 --> 00:43:25.860
And so introducing in 1980, what, five, 1984, introducing a female

866
00:43:25.860 --> 00:43:30.239
character with that as the concept is indefensible.

867
00:43:30.300 --> 00:43:33.119
And she is so charming.

868
00:43:33.179 --> 00:43:34.139
Do you know what I mean?

869
00:43:34.199 --> 00:43:37.619
She brings all sorts of charm to the life.

870
00:43:37.679 --> 00:43:41.639
Yeah, she's lovely, but it's horrible to watch how she's treated.

871
00:43:41.880 --> 00:43:43.380
Richard?

872
00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:47.460
I've kind of said, because I'm really not qualified to say, because

873
00:43:47.460 --> 00:43:50.880
I've not been able to watch, and it's for the reasons that we've

874
00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:54.780
all talked about, and I'm really, the loveliest thing that I've

875
00:43:54.780 --> 00:43:58.440
experienced as a just as a diet in the world devoted fan is that I

876
00:43:58.440 --> 00:44:02.159
can now say I have an appreciation because of Todd, actually, but

877
00:44:02.159 --> 00:44:05.280
all of you, but it's just Todd's enthusiasm, enthusiasm, listening

878
00:44:05.280 --> 00:44:08.460
to you all on the podcast, because I've still not been able to

879
00:44:08.460 --> 00:44:10.019
watch it all through.

880
00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:14.159
I just think, I find it painful to actually sit, me and Steve from

881
00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:15.179
New to Who.

882
00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:16.679
See, I've named Chechen now.

883
00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:21.300
But yeah, I'm kind of with him on that that I just find it

884
00:44:21.300 --> 00:44:23.460
difficult to watch, but I'm really interested in seeing it.

885
00:44:23.460 --> 00:44:25.559
And I want to see it for all the things.

886
00:44:25.619 --> 00:44:29.219
For me, big finish and the audios are just as much canon, as we're

887
00:44:29.219 --> 00:44:30.360
not allowed to say on the podcast.

888
00:44:30.420 --> 00:44:34.619
But for me, Colin exists on the audios as Paul exists on the

889
00:44:34.619 --> 00:44:41.340
audios and he's, and I really adore what he does. through that.

890
00:44:41.400 --> 00:44:42.719
So yes, I'd like to go back.

891
00:44:42.780 --> 00:44:46.980
But for all the sabrediness, and again, the Perry thing, and my

892
00:44:46.980 --> 00:44:49.380
friends, like Roman Laurie, who sometimes listens to this podcast

893
00:44:49.380 --> 00:44:54.239
as well, it's just, you know, we can't get over how the female

894
00:44:54.239 --> 00:44:55.260
lead was treated.

895
00:44:55.320 --> 00:44:57.119
It's not Doctor Who to do that.

896
00:44:57.179 --> 00:45:00.960
And yeah, you've, you've come, you've all, you've all covered it.

897
00:45:00.960 --> 00:45:03.719
And they do redress it and they do, they do fix it.

898
00:45:03.780 --> 00:45:06.900
I think it's time to go back and perhaps watch season 23.

899
00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:08.579
Who's up for that?

900
00:45:08.639 --> 00:45:09.539
Right.

901
00:45:09.539 --> 00:45:11.460
I'll always watch trial again.

902
00:45:11.519 --> 00:45:13.679
I to watch it.

903
00:45:13.739 --> 00:45:14.519
I bring the champagne.

904
00:45:14.579 --> 00:45:18.000
Oh, actually, we've got the marriage equality thing declared in

905
00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:19.800
just a week or two, haven't we?

906
00:45:19.860 --> 00:45:21.300
By the time this comes out.

907
00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:23.039
Yeah it'll probably be done one way or the other.

908
00:45:23.099 --> 00:45:27.420
A few days before the big bad dog party at Kasula, art centre and

909
00:45:27.420 --> 00:45:28.679
power station, which is all about that.

910
00:45:28.739 --> 00:45:32.099
So I think we should all be rocking up for that one.

911
00:45:32.159 --> 00:45:34.139
Yeah, we were talking about going as kangs.

912
00:45:34.199 --> 00:45:36.360
Because isn't the theme 2 tribes?

913
00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:40.320
Yes we were.

914
00:45:40.380 --> 00:45:41.579
We put a note here.

915
00:45:41.639 --> 00:45:43.380
We recommend we do recommend this.

916
00:45:43.440 --> 00:45:46.079
There are a lot of who fans that go to bad dog.

917
00:45:46.139 --> 00:45:47.159
This might come out after that.

918
00:45:47.219 --> 00:45:48.539
So we'll put it up on the Facebook group.

919
00:45:48.659 --> 00:45:54.960
Okay, so, you know, obviously as a huge supporter of Colin and the

920
00:45:54.960 --> 00:45:58.619
era, it's been incredible to go back and watch it with different

921
00:45:58.619 --> 00:46:05.460
eyes and and see flaws that are there and to understand why things

922
00:46:05.460 --> 00:46:08.699
happened and how they address things.

923
00:46:08.760 --> 00:46:14.039
Nathan has gone on about the silliness that he's so good at.

924
00:46:14.099 --> 00:46:17.280
But also the other thing, which you really opened my eyes to, was

925
00:46:17.280 --> 00:46:19.679
how good colonies on location.

926
00:46:19.860 --> 00:46:23.099
And that's one of the big...

927
00:46:23.099 --> 00:46:25.380
Just on location when you're straight when you're on film.

928
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:26.219
Mysterious play.

929
00:46:26.219 --> 00:46:26.639
Yeah.

930
00:46:26.699 --> 00:46:28.139
Well, any any location.

931
00:46:28.199 --> 00:46:32.880
He's so good in Revelation when on that laugh out loud.

932
00:46:33.539 --> 00:46:35.880
Yeah, but I'm just saying, like, even, you know, moments in the

933
00:46:35.880 --> 00:46:37.920
Trin dilemma, where they're shot outside in film where he's giving

934
00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:40.980
it at all, and it's quite funny, and Attack of the Simon, and I

935
00:46:40.980 --> 00:46:43.440
love all the stuff in the street, and that's the thing.

936
00:46:43.500 --> 00:46:45.360
So for me, that's one of the biggest things.

937
00:46:45.420 --> 00:46:49.079
And how different, how different the performance is between the 2

938
00:46:49.079 --> 00:46:49.500
seasons.

939
00:46:49.559 --> 00:46:55.139
I never realised how much he had addressed criticisms and really

940
00:46:55.139 --> 00:46:56.639
taken a completely different tack.

941
00:46:56.760 --> 00:46:59.579
I still adore season 22 listeners.

942
00:46:59.639 --> 00:47:01.920
I know everybody else has a lot of problems with it.

943
00:47:01.980 --> 00:47:05.820
It's my favourite season of the 1980s and I say that totally

944
00:47:05.820 --> 00:47:09.900
unashamed because Attack of the Summer, Benjamin Farous, 2 doctors

945
00:47:09.900 --> 00:47:13.019
and Revelation of the Daleks are 4 of my, they would be in my top

946
00:47:13.019 --> 00:47:17.460
30, top 20, and Mark of the Rani I like, and Tonish might be crap

947
00:47:17.460 --> 00:47:18.659
but it's a fun crap to watch.

948
00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:22.739
The funny thing is for me, despite that, you know I'm a season 24

949
00:47:22.739 --> 00:47:23.340
supporter.

950
00:47:23.400 --> 00:47:26.579
So you and I are like as far away from each other as we can be.

951
00:47:26.639 --> 00:47:29.880
But objectively, I have to agree that season 22 is better.

952
00:47:29.940 --> 00:47:31.380
It's better in terms of scripts.

953
00:47:31.440 --> 00:47:35.519
I think it's better in terms of the relationship, despite the fact

954
00:47:35.519 --> 00:47:37.500
that Perry is treated horribly in some stories.

955
00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:41.519
She and Colin get some really funny and even really tender moments

956
00:47:41.519 --> 00:47:44.760
even though his character is still quite hard in that season.

957
00:47:44.880 --> 00:47:47.280
You can have those stars, bitch scenes, and that's a problem.

958
00:47:47.280 --> 00:47:52.739
Of the 45 minutes and Eric Seywood's, you know, not able to

959
00:47:52.739 --> 00:47:55.079
actually, you know, structure things properly.

960
00:47:55.139 --> 00:48:00.179
So on that note, I'm going to say, who is the villain of the era?

961
00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:03.059
Okay, so villain on the count of three, everyone.

962
00:48:03.119 --> 00:48:04.500
One, two, three.

963
00:48:04.559 --> 00:48:06.480
Eric, say.

964
00:48:06.539 --> 00:48:07.199
There we are.

965
00:48:07.260 --> 00:48:09.179
God.

966
00:48:09.179 --> 00:48:14.099
I'll be back when we discuss the fist doctor.

967
00:48:14.940 --> 00:48:19.260
The no no monster can ever work alone in the dark.

968
00:48:19.320 --> 00:48:19.920
No, no.

969
00:48:19.980 --> 00:48:22.079
That's just producing Bruceisms, isn't it?

970
00:48:22.139 --> 00:48:23.400
if you work alone in the dark.

971
00:48:23.460 --> 00:48:24.360
That's the thing.

972
00:48:24.420 --> 00:48:25.320
I think, I think...

973
00:48:25.320 --> 00:48:29.579
Possibly even because he has to step into the script editing

974
00:48:29.579 --> 00:48:34.920
breach when Eric leaves, I think maybe JNT has a moment of self

975
00:48:34.079 --> 00:48:37.260
realisation at the end of trial and that's why he's so handoff

976
00:48:37.260 --> 00:48:38.519
hands off with...

977
00:48:38.579 --> 00:48:41.280
So there's a hugely toxic relationship between the 2 of them, isn't

978
00:48:41.280 --> 00:48:41.460
there?

979
00:48:41.519 --> 00:48:43.980
I mean, it's reflected the companion and the doctor's

980
00:48:43.980 --> 00:48:44.460
relationship.

981
00:48:44.519 --> 00:48:46.679
They're just writing their own love tiffs up on screen.

982
00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:50.039
So although J and T, we're not seeing, is like front and centre.

983
00:48:50.099 --> 00:48:53.400
He's the relationship. in that relationship.

984
00:48:53.579 --> 00:48:56.159
He's the feeder. perfect.

985
00:48:56.219 --> 00:48:57.900
He's the theatre.

986
00:48:57.960 --> 00:49:01.559
So, um, one to watch.

987
00:49:02.219 --> 00:49:05.340
Oh, oh, oh, oh, God.

988
00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:06.059
Mark the Rani.

989
00:49:06.179 --> 00:49:07.079
Mark the Rani.

990
00:49:07.139 --> 00:49:08.579
Terror of the vervoid.

991
00:49:08.639 --> 00:49:09.300
Oh my god.

992
00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:10.980
Lordy, what?

993
00:49:10.980 --> 00:49:13.559
I'd have to say, sorry, the Dalek one.

994
00:49:13.980 --> 00:49:16.199
I don't know any of them.

995
00:49:16.260 --> 00:49:18.179
Attack of the cybermen.

996
00:49:18.239 --> 00:49:20.579
Yeah. 1st episode attack this up.

997
00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:22.079
Yeah, why is that so disliked?

998
00:49:22.139 --> 00:49:23.400
I found it terrible.

999
00:49:24.239 --> 00:49:26.039
Let's just ignore Nathan for the moment.

1000
00:49:26.280 --> 00:49:28.920
Okay, one to avoid.

1001
00:49:28.980 --> 00:49:30.239
One to avoid.

1002
00:49:30.300 --> 00:49:33.480
Can I go one, two, three, and we all say the same thing?

1003
00:49:33.539 --> 00:49:34.440
Okay, see if it works.

1004
00:49:34.500 --> 00:49:36.780
One, two, three.

1005
00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:38.460
The twin dilemma.

1006
00:49:38.760 --> 00:49:40.920
Mark of the running.

1007
00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:43.139
It's the script.

1008
00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:46.800
It's just I challenge everyone to go and read Dan Hogan.

1009
00:49:46.920 --> 00:49:49.500
That's the script. makes no sense.

1010
00:49:49.559 --> 00:49:51.119
But yeah, yeah, twin dilemma.

1011
00:49:51.179 --> 00:49:54.119
I don't know, it has a lovely 50s campy feel to it.

1012
00:49:54.179 --> 00:49:56.400
It actually feels like a No, it's horrible.

1013
00:49:56.460 --> 00:49:57.300
It's atrocity.

1014
00:49:57.360 --> 00:50:01.500
The hero of the era for me is Colin trying to do what he can do

1015
00:50:01.500 --> 00:50:04.440
with the scripts, with what's going on in production.

1016
00:50:04.500 --> 00:50:08.219
Baffling decisions behind the scenes, getting through the coach

1017
00:50:08.219 --> 00:50:11.519
and still maintaining a positive attitude towards the show after

1018
00:50:11.519 --> 00:50:12.000
all this time.

1019
00:50:12.059 --> 00:50:13.320
Yeah, me too.

1020
00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:18.599
For my heroes of the era from here on out, I just want all our

1021
00:50:18.599 --> 00:50:20.699
listeners to assume I'm going to say whoever's playing the doctor

1022
00:50:20.699 --> 00:50:22.260
because I don't think we've had a bad doctor.

1023
00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:25.440
So for my heroes of the era, I'm going to say kind of my 2nd

1024
00:50:25.440 --> 00:50:25.980
hero.

1025
00:50:26.039 --> 00:50:28.559
My 2nd hero of this era.

1026
00:50:28.619 --> 00:50:32.760
Nicola Bryant gets an honourable mention, but it's Michael Jason.

1027
00:50:32.760 --> 00:50:34.500
Because, oh, interesting.

1028
00:50:34.500 --> 00:50:39.599
Because after the show has been cancelled and it's looked down on

1029
00:50:39.599 --> 00:50:46.920
trodden into the dirt, Michael Jason comes on and He plays his

1030
00:50:46.920 --> 00:50:52.260
part as if he is on a show that is getting 12000000 viewers a

1031
00:50:52.260 --> 00:50:52.440
week.

1032
00:50:52.559 --> 00:50:57.480
He doesn't allow the negative press to affect his performance

1033
00:50:57.480 --> 00:51:02.280
because he could have easily given a scenery chewing kid's panto

1034
00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:02.820
performance.

1035
00:51:02.880 --> 00:51:07.860
Instead, he is dark and menacing, and it has this amazing effect

1036
00:51:07.860 --> 00:51:11.340
because Colin is still very bombastic in those scenes, and Michael

1037
00:51:11.340 --> 00:51:15.360
Jason hardly raises his voice at any and he's always just this

1038
00:51:15.360 --> 00:51:18.360
very calm, lugubrious character.

1039
00:51:19.139 --> 00:51:23.940
Which makes the reveal at the end all the more powerful because

1040
00:51:23.940 --> 00:51:27.119
they have been opposites all the way through, and still to this

1041
00:51:27.119 --> 00:51:30.960
day, Michael is incredibly proud of having played the doctor, and

1042
00:51:30.960 --> 00:51:34.079
why aren't I in the montages, Russell T. Davis?

1043
00:51:34.139 --> 00:51:38.579
You know, so he approached it with so much pride then and now.

1044
00:51:38.639 --> 00:51:41.400
So, yeah, Michael Jason for me.

1045
00:51:41.460 --> 00:51:42.480
Okay.

1046
00:51:42.539 --> 00:51:49.679
And one to be made into a blockbuster movie starring Colin Baker.

1047
00:51:49.739 --> 00:51:51.659
Attack of the Cybermen.

1048
00:51:51.719 --> 00:51:55.079
Attack of the side, I meant with the original conclusion of a

1049
00:51:55.079 --> 00:51:56.159
battle on Halley's Comet.

1050
00:51:56.219 --> 00:51:59.400
If you can get rid of some of the word peril and replace it with

1051
00:51:59.400 --> 00:52:02.460
actual things that happen, that would be great fun.

1052
00:52:02.519 --> 00:52:07.139
And I would bring back the original design of the tombs. you know

1053
00:52:07.139 --> 00:52:10.679
the way that we, you know, started to adopt some of that stuff in

1054
00:52:10.679 --> 00:52:13.079
the Capaldi era when the cybermen came along.

1055
00:52:13.139 --> 00:52:16.500
We would have some of those design elements from the tombs in

1056
00:52:16.500 --> 00:52:16.739
there.

1057
00:52:16.800 --> 00:52:18.900
I think that that would be really terrifically fun.

1058
00:52:18.960 --> 00:52:23.460
I wonder if Colin had not would not have actually, you know, we

1059
00:52:23.460 --> 00:52:26.460
would have had very different conversations if twin dilemma had

1060
00:52:26.460 --> 00:52:27.360
simply never been made.

1061
00:52:27.420 --> 00:52:29.579
And we started off with attack.

1062
00:52:29.639 --> 00:52:30.900
I think so.

1063
00:52:30.960 --> 00:52:31.619
I think so.

1064
00:52:31.679 --> 00:52:33.179
Todd what do you think?

1065
00:52:33.239 --> 00:52:34.800
I'm gonna put it out there right now.

1066
00:52:34.860 --> 00:52:38.039
I think episode one of the trend dilemma is possibly the worst

1067
00:52:38.039 --> 00:52:39.480
episode ever of Doctor Who.

1068
00:52:39.780 --> 00:52:44.519
Not because of corn, but because of the attack on Perry and the

1069
00:52:44.519 --> 00:52:48.300
entire cast, which I'm not going to get started on again.

1070
00:52:48.360 --> 00:52:49.320
Are we going to get a ranch?

1071
00:52:49.320 --> 00:52:54.659
just appalling and so if there's any new who people out there who

1072
00:52:54.659 --> 00:52:58.619
want to watch this, you actually have to watch the whole thing of

1073
00:52:58.619 --> 00:53:01.440
the twin dilemma for Collins' performance and nothing else.

1074
00:53:01.500 --> 00:53:03.000
Black and white and backwards.

1075
00:53:03.059 --> 00:53:05.400
You can't just respond into one episode.

1076
00:53:05.460 --> 00:53:07.260
Otherwise you'll just make a judgement.

1077
00:53:07.320 --> 00:53:11.340
But no, Richard is absolutely right in watching the Colin Baker

1078
00:53:11.340 --> 00:53:12.059
area in black and white.

1079
00:53:12.119 --> 00:53:14.940
The coat looks amazing in black and white because it has

1080
00:53:14.940 --> 00:53:15.420
symmetry.

1081
00:53:15.480 --> 00:53:18.420
So guys, what would your movie be?

1082
00:53:18.659 --> 00:53:21.840
Oh, I'm definitely doing a tag.

1083
00:53:21.900 --> 00:53:24.599
I was going to do the trial of a time look completely.

1084
00:53:24.659 --> 00:53:28.139
But I've decided to take just sounds so much better than only

1085
00:53:28.139 --> 00:53:29.880
effort I'd have to go to rewriting.

1086
00:53:30.119 --> 00:53:32.039
It depends on which, because you know I love film.

1087
00:53:32.099 --> 00:53:34.079
It depends on which director you would give me.

1088
00:53:34.199 --> 00:53:37.800
So if you gave me Val Lewis and get the scriptwriters, the script

1089
00:53:37.800 --> 00:53:41.460
doctors for Evelyn Wars transpositions to British cinema in the

1090
00:53:41.460 --> 00:53:42.000
50s.

1091
00:53:42.059 --> 00:53:44.880
I would do, um, the Dalek.

1092
00:53:44.940 --> 00:53:46.079
I would do revelation.

1093
00:53:46.139 --> 00:53:51.780
But I would do it as a 50s British Lion or Ealing film and just

1094
00:53:51.780 --> 00:53:54.840
very subtle and very quietly and on the same budget, but just very

1095
00:53:54.840 --> 00:53:55.079
small.

1096
00:53:55.320 --> 00:54:00.599
Yeah, really interestingly, but I've got to say that I'm not very

1097
00:54:00.599 --> 00:54:01.559
again, not very familiar.

1098
00:54:01.619 --> 00:54:04.559
Oh, you'd have to say mission to Magnus, wouldn't you?

1099
00:54:05.940 --> 00:54:07.739
Can you imagine?

1100
00:54:07.800 --> 00:54:09.360
It just guns and frocks.

1101
00:54:09.420 --> 00:54:10.980
As a carry-on film.

1102
00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:13.380
Yeah.

1103
00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:14.099
Oh my god.

1104
00:54:14.159 --> 00:54:16.440
It actually, the entire carry on cast.

1105
00:54:16.500 --> 00:54:19.139
Bernard Brislaw magazine, I'm sorry.

1106
00:54:19.199 --> 00:54:23.579
Couldn't Kenneth Williams hiss beautifully is the ice is the

1107
00:54:23.579 --> 00:54:25.380
searing ice slaured.

1108
00:54:25.440 --> 00:54:28.079
And I think Charles Hawtrey is the leader of the women.

1109
00:54:28.139 --> 00:54:31.320
Right on that note, we're going to the Peter Davis era.

1110
00:55:02.340 --> 00:55:06.360
We're going to start off with, you know, what we've taken away or

1111
00:55:06.360 --> 00:55:09.239
what we've discovered, and I'm going to start this one off because

1112
00:55:09.239 --> 00:55:11.699
it is my least favourite era of the show.

1113
00:55:11.760 --> 00:55:16.320
But I'm going to say this. season 21, Davison is fantastic.

1114
00:55:16.380 --> 00:55:18.840
And if I had to judge him just on that season, I'd put him in the

1115
00:55:18.840 --> 00:55:19.500
top 3 doctors.

1116
00:55:19.500 --> 00:55:22.920
And that, For me, is huge.

1117
00:55:23.460 --> 00:55:25.800
However, he's not judged on that.

1118
00:55:25.860 --> 00:55:30.059
There are 2 seasons before that, which I find, I can watch 3

1119
00:55:30.059 --> 00:55:32.820
episodes of Snake Dance and 3 episodes of Enlightenment, but every

1120
00:55:32.820 --> 00:55:34.619
other story I couldn't do more than two.

1121
00:55:34.860 --> 00:55:37.380
I was finding it hard too, actually.

1122
00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:40.980
But having said that, it's so hilarious that in my head, I have

1123
00:55:40.980 --> 00:55:44.880
him, Adject, Mr. and Tegan just emblazoned in my head as the team

1124
00:55:44.880 --> 00:55:49.139
you know, by my child, you know, because we had books with it and

1125
00:55:49.139 --> 00:55:49.619
everything like that.

1126
00:55:49.679 --> 00:55:53.340
So and he's got a great energy coming into the show in the 1st 3

1127
00:55:53.340 --> 00:55:54.480
or 4 stories that he does.

1128
00:55:54.539 --> 00:55:57.539
Great charm too, yeah, to start off with.

1129
00:55:57.659 --> 00:56:00.659
I just had that, that, it's that malaise in the middle.

1130
00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:04.380
And so my villain of the era is Eric Seywood, a script editor

1131
00:56:04.380 --> 00:56:05.880
coming into that role too soon.

1132
00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:09.300
Yeah, well, you can see the switchover from Bidmead to say what

1133
00:56:09.300 --> 00:56:11.639
and just how the entire tone changes.

1134
00:56:11.699 --> 00:56:13.139
Nathan.

1135
00:56:13.260 --> 00:56:18.719
Well, I think that Pete is one of the best actors ever to take the

1136
00:56:18.719 --> 00:56:19.079
role.

1137
00:56:19.139 --> 00:56:21.239
He's never been out of work since.

1138
00:56:21.300 --> 00:56:27.119
He's given some really terrible material, but his performance is

1139
00:56:27.119 --> 00:56:30.119
much, much more interesting than people give it credit for.

1140
00:56:30.119 --> 00:56:35.039
And coming off Tom, whose performance we've said before, isn't an

1141
00:56:35.039 --> 00:56:35.880
acting performance.

1142
00:56:35.940 --> 00:56:41.039
It's just that he's incredibly compelling to watch. amazingly

1143
00:56:41.039 --> 00:56:42.119
charismatic.

1144
00:56:42.360 --> 00:56:45.719
And then you go to Pete, who acts in the role.

1145
00:56:45.840 --> 00:56:53.519
And he is by no means the sort of bland, nice, sweet doctor that

1146
00:56:53.519 --> 00:56:55.739
Perry claims he was.

1147
00:56:55.800 --> 00:56:58.500
He's tetchy and impatient.

1148
00:56:58.559 --> 00:57:01.920
The running, which he introduces to the show.

1149
00:57:01.980 --> 00:57:06.539
You know, it's so hard to run when you're barely on location.

1150
00:57:06.599 --> 00:57:07.619
Or Peter Capaldi.

1151
00:57:09.539 --> 00:57:12.239
He's the best at running.

1152
00:57:12.300 --> 00:57:14.639
He runs like Peter Cushing.

1153
00:57:14.699 --> 00:57:18.059
It's wonderful My God, he does too.

1154
00:57:18.360 --> 00:57:20.760
No, I think we've said it before.

1155
00:57:20.820 --> 00:57:24.119
Armando Yanucci says that there's nothing funnier that you can put

1156
00:57:24.119 --> 00:57:25.980
on screen than Peter Capoldi running.

1157
00:57:26.039 --> 00:57:29.460
So Pete introduces a thing running...

1158
00:57:29.519 --> 00:57:31.980
That's it.

1159
00:57:32.219 --> 00:57:34.320
He's so good.

1160
00:57:34.380 --> 00:57:37.800
And even when the material he's given is not good, and it

1161
00:57:37.800 --> 00:57:43.800
frequently isn't, I mean, it doesn't get as nasty as say it would

1162
00:57:43.800 --> 00:57:45.000
stuff eventually gets.

1163
00:57:45.059 --> 00:57:48.480
There's vastly less cannibalism in the Peter Davis.

1164
00:57:48.539 --> 00:57:50.699
You had to say that.

1165
00:57:50.699 --> 00:57:54.900
And no one would dare to torture Tegan the way that Perry gets

1166
00:57:54.900 --> 00:57:55.619
tortured.

1167
00:57:55.679 --> 00:57:57.059
And he's smart.

1168
00:57:57.119 --> 00:57:58.380
He's so smart.

1169
00:57:58.440 --> 00:58:02.039
And you can tell from his commentaries just how clever he is.

1170
00:58:02.099 --> 00:58:04.980
So I think he's the real hero of the era.

1171
00:58:05.039 --> 00:58:06.900
I think he's really amazing.

1172
00:58:06.960 --> 00:58:10.800
And I would agree that Seyward is the villain.

1173
00:58:10.800 --> 00:58:16.199
And he's already sidelining Pete in his own scripts.

1174
00:58:16.260 --> 00:58:20.880
He's much more interested in telling stories about soldiers.

1175
00:58:20.880 --> 00:58:22.739
And telebiogenesis.

1176
00:58:22.800 --> 00:58:26.760
Well, no, I would be happy for there to be more telebiogenesis.

1177
00:58:26.820 --> 00:58:28.860
Really, there's a lot of there's a lot of info dumping.

1178
00:58:28.920 --> 00:58:34.260
There is, but what there also is, is a critique of the doctor as a

1179
00:58:34.260 --> 00:58:39.840
hero because he refuses to carry a gun that makes him in Seyward's

1180
00:58:39.840 --> 00:58:44.219
eyes passive and ineffectual, and that's something that absolutely

1181
00:58:44.219 --> 00:58:47.280
haunts Collins era.

1182
00:58:47.340 --> 00:58:51.300
Like Colin is really disrespected as a hero.

1183
00:58:51.360 --> 00:58:56.820
And that's why he's, you know, conceived as unpleasant, why he has

1184
00:58:56.820 --> 00:59:01.199
to be shouty and selfish because Saywood doesn't like the doctor

1185
00:59:01.199 --> 00:59:02.760
as an idea.

1186
00:59:02.820 --> 00:59:08.219
And already he's sidelined and the yearly remakes of earth shock.

1187
00:59:08.280 --> 00:59:08.820
I think.

1188
00:59:09.059 --> 00:59:11.099
They're terrible.

1189
00:59:11.219 --> 00:59:13.320
What would you name the name?

1190
00:59:13.380 --> 00:59:15.900
Earthshock, Earthshock 2.

1191
00:59:16.440 --> 00:59:18.000
The Return?

1192
00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:20.820
Earth Shock 2 of the Daleks of the Shock 3.

1193
00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:23.099
It's pretty much every 2nd story.

1194
00:59:23.159 --> 00:59:27.059
Every 2nd story, you could say, is...

1195
00:59:27.059 --> 00:59:29.219
Nathan, I do agree with you.

1196
00:59:29.280 --> 00:59:32.579
Pete is a hero of this era.

1197
00:59:32.639 --> 00:59:35.940
The other person I would also nominate would be Janet Fielding.

1198
00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:36.539
Oh, me too.

1199
00:59:36.599 --> 00:59:37.739
Yeah, absolutely.

1200
00:59:37.800 --> 00:59:43.199
And I adored her as a child and now I think she's fantastic.

1201
00:59:43.260 --> 00:59:45.360
I think she's really, really great.

1202
00:59:45.420 --> 00:59:50.219
And even the stuff that she says about the program and its

1203
00:59:50.219 --> 00:59:54.719
representation of women and, you know, getting Pete and and Janet

1204
00:59:54.719 --> 00:59:56.639
on a commentary is wonderful.

1205
00:59:56.880 --> 01:00:01.199
They're both super honest about the program and super funny.

1206
01:00:01.260 --> 01:00:03.659
And I know that there are people who find the sort of endless

1207
01:00:03.659 --> 01:00:06.360
tearing the show apart rather tiresome after a while.

1208
01:00:06.420 --> 01:00:08.159
Surely not people who listen to us.

1209
01:00:08.639 --> 01:00:12.840
But Janet is just, just incredible.

1210
01:00:12.900 --> 01:00:13.920
Really really great.

1211
01:00:13.980 --> 01:00:18.119
Once Tegan gets drunk, you know, that's a story, which Black

1212
01:00:18.119 --> 01:00:18.659
Orchid.

1213
01:00:18.719 --> 01:00:19.019
Thank you.

1214
01:00:19.079 --> 01:00:21.119
I'm twitching dealers.

1215
01:00:21.179 --> 01:00:24.599
Her performance from that point on is it's nuanced.

1216
01:00:24.599 --> 01:00:26.099
Before then, it's not as nuanced.

1217
01:00:26.159 --> 01:00:29.820
But from that point on, there's just something where she navigates

1218
01:00:29.820 --> 01:00:32.820
those scripts in Tegan's character that just really works.

1219
01:00:32.880 --> 01:00:34.800
And she works well with paid as well.

1220
01:00:34.860 --> 01:00:38.099
You know, like she works really terrifically well with Pete.

1221
01:00:38.280 --> 01:00:40.380
Are the members of the team?

1222
01:00:40.440 --> 01:00:41.039
Richard?

1223
01:00:41.460 --> 01:00:44.039
Oh, it's so interesting.

1224
01:00:44.099 --> 01:00:47.519
And at the time, I was with really with Pete that I felt that

1225
01:00:47.519 --> 01:00:53.460
Nissa, that Sarah's character was really the person that I wanted

1226
01:00:53.460 --> 01:00:56.340
to see and that I wanted to see more of her and now I can't wait

1227
01:00:56.340 --> 01:00:58.320
for her to get the hell off the screen.

1228
01:00:59.340 --> 01:01:02.940
And she's really a dead centre and it's certainly not her

1229
01:01:02.940 --> 01:01:03.539
performing.

1230
01:01:03.599 --> 01:01:04.500
I think you're right.

1231
01:01:04.559 --> 01:01:08.280
It's that Sabord has a bugbear that he sees compassion as weakness

1232
01:01:08.280 --> 01:01:11.099
and that really does come across.

1233
01:01:11.159 --> 01:01:15.840
But we also have people who are smart, who are in the leads, who

1234
01:01:15.840 --> 01:01:18.840
are seeing that and winkling it out.

1235
01:01:18.900 --> 01:01:23.820
So you've got Janet playing the feisty, mouthy, but also throwing

1236
01:01:23.820 --> 01:01:27.599
that's her, their own personalities will always overcome the

1237
01:01:27.599 --> 01:01:30.960
limitations of the material, or the limitations of, of, you know

1238
01:01:30.960 --> 01:01:32.280
the background direction.

1239
01:01:32.400 --> 01:01:35.280
So yes, I agree with you completely on that one.

1240
01:01:35.340 --> 01:01:36.840
What are there any other little gifts?

1241
01:01:36.900 --> 01:01:39.780
I think there was a lot to work against, and I think a lot of it

1242
01:01:39.780 --> 01:01:46.920
has to do with the dying days of BBC in-house drama, just the ways

1243
01:01:46.920 --> 01:01:47.639
of making it.

1244
01:01:47.699 --> 01:01:50.460
So yes, I would, I would point a black boney finger at every

1245
01:01:50.460 --> 01:01:56.579
lighting technician that worked for the BBC at the time and the

1246
01:01:56.579 --> 01:02:00.719
way the things were produced on such a quick turnover and so, and

1247
01:02:00.719 --> 01:02:02.639
also that they had to make that many stories.

1248
01:02:02.699 --> 01:02:05.699
I would have liked a bit more creative freedom and license that

1249
01:02:05.699 --> 01:02:09.420
perhaps this season we're only going to do 12 or 14, but we'll do

1250
01:02:09.420 --> 01:02:10.019
them longer.

1251
01:02:10.019 --> 01:02:14.159
It will be dependent upon how the script is, like any theatre

1252
01:02:14.159 --> 01:02:18.480
group, any rep group or any proper cinematic artistic thing.

1253
01:02:18.539 --> 01:02:22.019
Look at what Patrick Magoon was able to do with the prisoner or in

1254
01:02:22.019 --> 01:02:24.300
fact, what ITC were doing in the 60s.

1255
01:02:24.360 --> 01:02:24.960
Not so much now.

1256
01:02:25.019 --> 01:02:28.320
But Doctor Who was, when it started was part of that whole

1257
01:02:28.320 --> 01:02:33.179
creative push of testing the medium and being clever and for the

1258
01:02:33.179 --> 01:02:36.840
sake of a bigger, not just for its own sake, but for creativity.

1259
01:02:36.960 --> 01:02:40.860
So it was a fresh creative idea and it came out of a time when

1260
01:02:40.860 --> 01:02:43.860
pretty much everything was a fresh creative idea.

1261
01:02:43.920 --> 01:02:48.420
And we now seem to be struggling against the limitations of

1262
01:02:48.420 --> 01:02:51.119
production codes and what we required to do.

1263
01:02:51.179 --> 01:02:52.619
It's been corporatised.

1264
01:02:52.679 --> 01:02:56.760
I mean, you can really feel the people within it trying so hard to

1265
01:02:56.760 --> 01:02:58.679
do something good and pushing against that.

1266
01:02:58.739 --> 01:03:00.059
Brendan.

1267
01:03:00.119 --> 01:03:01.199
Yeah.

1268
01:03:01.260 --> 01:03:04.920
With Pete, the thing I really noticed watching it through again

1269
01:03:05.219 --> 01:03:09.420
was The subtle edges.

1270
01:03:09.480 --> 01:03:14.159
He has always been my least favourite doctor and I think he

1271
01:03:14.159 --> 01:03:17.099
possibly still is, but he's come up much closer to the others.

1272
01:03:17.340 --> 01:03:19.860
And it's those subtle little moments.

1273
01:03:19.920 --> 01:03:21.780
It the tetchiness you mentioned, Nathan.

1274
01:03:21.840 --> 01:03:29.400
It's, Also, I think he and Sylvester and Patrick are the ones who

1275
01:03:29.400 --> 01:03:31.500
really get the sadness of the character.

1276
01:03:31.559 --> 01:03:35.340
And I think with Peter, it's a lot, it's a lot more under the

1277
01:03:35.340 --> 01:03:36.960
surface, unlike it is with the other two.

1278
01:03:37.019 --> 01:03:40.559
There's a Doctor Who drinking game that says, you know, take a

1279
01:03:40.559 --> 01:03:45.539
shot every time the 5th doctor, grins, then frowns fetchingly.

1280
01:03:45.719 --> 01:03:51.119
And the thing is, the way I look at those, like, grins and them

1281
01:03:51.119 --> 01:03:56.519
frowning is his doctor kind of going, Oh, that's amusing and now

1282
01:03:56.519 --> 01:03:57.000
it's stopped.

1283
01:03:57.119 --> 01:04:01.800
That's how I see him looking at the character of this time, Lord.

1284
01:04:01.860 --> 01:04:03.420
You know, everything is fleeting to him.

1285
01:04:03.480 --> 01:04:04.199
It's already done.

1286
01:04:04.260 --> 01:04:04.800
It's already gone.

1287
01:04:05.340 --> 01:04:08.340
And another thing I just love about him.

1288
01:04:08.400 --> 01:04:14.039
And I think this is the antidote we get to, the Sewardism of this

1289
01:04:14.039 --> 01:04:18.000
era, which we don't necessarily get in Collins era, is that...

1290
01:04:18.000 --> 01:04:26.219
Davison's doctor is, this person who desperately believes in good

1291
01:04:26.219 --> 01:04:29.280
and peace in the universe, and despite the fact that the universe

1292
01:04:29.280 --> 01:04:33.360
keeps kicking him in the face, he never gives up on that, you

1293
01:04:33.360 --> 01:04:33.599
know.

1294
01:04:33.659 --> 01:04:38.039
Look at Warriors of the Deep, where he's punched, he's thrown into

1295
01:04:38.039 --> 01:04:38.940
a reactor pool.

1296
01:04:39.000 --> 01:04:40.079
He's assumed drowned.

1297
01:04:40.139 --> 01:04:41.940
And when he finally gets to the bridge.

1298
01:04:42.000 --> 01:04:44.219
The 1st thing he does is hand hands over his gun.

1299
01:04:44.280 --> 01:04:46.619
He's not going in there to fight.

1300
01:04:46.679 --> 01:04:49.199
He going in there to talk, even if it gets him killed.

1301
01:04:49.260 --> 01:04:51.480
And that's what Robert Holmes brings out in the character in the

1302
01:04:51.480 --> 01:04:51.960
final story.

1303
01:04:52.019 --> 01:04:54.840
And I think that's why Andrazani is possibly Davidson's favourite

1304
01:04:54.840 --> 01:04:58.619
story because it gets that his doctor, he's not interested in

1305
01:04:58.619 --> 01:04:59.820
killing the gun runners.

1306
01:04:59.880 --> 01:05:04.500
He's not interested in necessarily stopping their drug trade, what

1307
01:05:04.500 --> 01:05:07.139
he's interested in is saving his friend because this is all his

1308
01:05:07.139 --> 01:05:07.380
fault.

1309
01:05:07.440 --> 01:05:11.460
It's a shame that Andrew Zani didn't get to do more script editing

1310
01:05:11.460 --> 01:05:12.719
as the show right now.

1311
01:05:12.900 --> 01:05:17.699
So my villain of this era isn't so much say word because I think

1312
01:05:17.699 --> 01:05:22.380
say word at this point because of his inexperience. can't be held

1313
01:05:22.380 --> 01:05:23.400
entirely accountable.

1314
01:05:23.519 --> 01:05:26.880
You know, in the Colin era, he had his chance to make a whole new

1315
01:05:26.880 --> 01:05:28.800
show and blew it.

1316
01:05:28.860 --> 01:05:30.840
So who is the villain?

1317
01:05:30.900 --> 01:05:34.619
Whoever decided that Christopher Hamilton bit me couldn't have a

1318
01:05:34.619 --> 01:05:36.179
pay rise to stay on.

1319
01:05:36.599 --> 01:05:40.199
Okay, there's there's 2 winners here, but yeah, you know, that

1320
01:05:40.199 --> 01:05:41.760
that is that is very good.

1321
01:05:41.820 --> 01:05:44.699
Yeah, because, um, because yeah, I think the biggest problem with

1322
01:05:44.699 --> 01:05:49.079
SayWord in this era is he just didn't have the experience to work

1323
01:05:49.079 --> 01:05:53.639
on a show of this magnitude and I think throughout that 2nd season

1324
01:05:53.639 --> 01:05:57.119
you can see he's doing his best because with that 2nd season of 6

1325
01:05:57.119 --> 01:05:57.539
stories.

1326
01:05:57.599 --> 01:06:01.739
I think there are 3 stories that are good.

1327
01:06:01.800 --> 01:06:05.219
I think you've got Snake Dance, Modern Undead, and Enlightenment

1328
01:06:05.219 --> 01:06:08.579
and I think the other 3 fall short, possibly because the attention

1329
01:06:08.579 --> 01:06:11.820
was being spent on those 3 good ones, you know, and it was like

1330
01:06:11.820 --> 01:06:12.420
triage.

1331
01:06:12.480 --> 01:06:15.059
It's like, I'm going to get these 3 good ones out the door and I'm

1332
01:06:15.059 --> 01:06:16.320
sorry guys, but the other ones.

1333
01:06:17.340 --> 01:06:22.260
But by the time you get to 21, I think Seward knows what he's

1334
01:06:22.260 --> 01:06:22.440
doing.

1335
01:06:22.500 --> 01:06:22.920
Yeah, yeah.

1336
01:06:22.980 --> 01:06:23.400
And you know what?

1337
01:06:23.519 --> 01:06:28.440
21, despite the violence in resurrection, 21 is a really good

1338
01:06:28.440 --> 01:06:29.039
balance.

1339
01:06:29.219 --> 01:06:31.679
Until twin dilemma comes along.

1340
01:06:31.739 --> 01:06:36.719
But twin dilemma is we've just made 3 epically good stories.

1341
01:06:36.780 --> 01:06:39.059
I know you're not a big fan of resurrection Nathan, but I think

1342
01:06:39.059 --> 01:06:39.480
it's good.

1343
01:06:39.539 --> 01:06:43.079
You've got resurrection, you've got Planet of Fire, you've got

1344
01:06:43.079 --> 01:06:44.219
Caves of Andrazani.

1345
01:06:44.280 --> 01:06:49.199
They've gone all out to give their 3 regulars, a big sendoff, and

1346
01:06:49.199 --> 01:06:54.300
they've got this sort of end of season where they just think that

1347
01:06:54.300 --> 01:06:56.820
having a new doctor will coast them along the line.

1348
01:06:56.880 --> 01:06:58.019
The turkeys in the oven.

1349
01:06:58.079 --> 01:06:58.559
Yeah.

1350
01:06:58.739 --> 01:07:01.139
But so my hero...

1351
01:07:01.139 --> 01:07:01.920
What am I saying this?

1352
01:07:01.980 --> 01:07:04.320
My hero of the era is Janet.

1353
01:07:04.380 --> 01:07:05.280
Yay.

1354
01:07:05.280 --> 01:07:09.239
And it's because everyone remembers her as being angry and mean

1355
01:07:09.239 --> 01:07:13.139
just as everyone remembers Davidson as being feckless and stupid

1356
01:07:13.139 --> 01:07:15.900
and it's like, no, they actually got a lot more in common with

1357
01:07:15.900 --> 01:07:16.320
each other.

1358
01:07:16.380 --> 01:07:19.019
And despite how much they argue.

1359
01:07:19.079 --> 01:07:23.460
The loyalty between the characters and the love between the

1360
01:07:23.460 --> 01:07:26.760
characters is incredibly obvious because if it wasn't.

1361
01:07:26.820 --> 01:07:30.420
And if it was that Davison was just her whipping boy and she was

1362
01:07:30.420 --> 01:07:33.659
and she was just a horrible harrow and...

1363
01:07:33.719 --> 01:07:37.559
That end scene of Resurrection, the Daleks wouldn't have any

1364
01:07:37.559 --> 01:07:41.579
resonance, but what it is, it's this character who's been so

1365
01:07:41.579 --> 01:07:45.300
strong finally saying, no, this isn't acceptable.

1366
01:07:45.360 --> 01:07:45.960
I can't do this.

1367
01:07:46.019 --> 01:07:48.300
I've had enough say word and I'm not coming back.

1368
01:07:48.360 --> 01:07:54.119
And the character who has been her best friend and has sort of

1369
01:07:54.119 --> 01:07:58.679
talks her down from her angrier moments, suddenly has nothing to

1370
01:07:58.679 --> 01:07:58.920
say.

1371
01:07:58.980 --> 01:08:03.480
You know, it's a really effective moment from from the 2 actors.

1372
01:08:03.599 --> 01:08:07.500
And yeah, that's why Janet Fielding's, my hero of the era, because

1373
01:08:07.500 --> 01:08:10.380
even without that subtlety until Black Orchid.

1374
01:08:10.440 --> 01:08:12.960
And I agree, Black Orchid is when she really comes into it.

1375
01:08:13.380 --> 01:08:17.880
Even in her probably worst performance, which is for to doomsday

1376
01:08:17.880 --> 01:08:20.760
when she's stomping around the TARDIS, she's still entertaining

1377
01:08:20.760 --> 01:08:21.420
and funny.

1378
01:08:21.479 --> 01:08:22.500
Cheers.

1379
01:08:22.739 --> 01:08:28.979
Just thinking, can you imagine doing work that 5 years, 10 years

1380
01:08:28.979 --> 01:08:33.060
20 years later, everyone can critique and still does?

1381
01:08:33.119 --> 01:08:36.420
Can you imagine the stuff that we do when we turn up?

1382
01:08:36.479 --> 01:08:39.119
will be constantly critiqued for the rest of our time?

1383
01:08:39.180 --> 01:08:41.279
Um, say what?

1384
01:08:41.340 --> 01:08:44.220
Say what, for all that we're saying, did also, I'm just

1385
01:08:44.220 --> 01:08:48.300
remembering, gave, gave us enlightenment and Kinder, and I've got

1386
01:08:48.300 --> 01:08:50.819
to say, when Earth Chock 1st came out, I really loved it.

1387
01:08:50.880 --> 01:08:53.399
As a 14 year old boy, fantastic.

1388
01:08:53.460 --> 01:08:55.979
I think he gets a lot more right in this era than he gets wrong.

1389
01:08:56.039 --> 01:08:58.079
There's a lot of good things there.

1390
01:08:58.140 --> 01:09:03.119
So maybe it's actually just about the Moffat syndrome or the MS, as

1391
01:09:03.119 --> 01:09:06.659
we now call it, because it's a recognised illness, is that let

1392
01:09:06.659 --> 01:09:11.579
people do their good work for the time that they can, but even RTD

1393
01:09:11.579 --> 01:09:12.960
would say it don't linger too long.

1394
01:09:13.020 --> 01:09:13.739
Yes.

1395
01:09:13.739 --> 01:09:14.520
Okay.

1396
01:09:14.579 --> 01:09:17.100
Brendan. one to watch One to watch.

1397
01:09:17.159 --> 01:09:17.699
One to watch.

1398
01:09:19.199 --> 01:09:23.220
I would have to say the awakening.

1399
01:09:23.279 --> 01:09:28.140
Not because it's the best one, but just because I think the

1400
01:09:28.140 --> 01:09:31.079
regulars all get some fun stuff to do, there's some great guest

1401
01:09:31.079 --> 01:09:31.619
cast.

1402
01:09:31.680 --> 01:09:35.279
And as you just alluded Richard, it doesn't outstay its welcome.

1403
01:09:35.340 --> 01:09:36.300
Okay.

1404
01:09:36.359 --> 01:09:38.340
For me, worries of the deep.

1405
01:09:38.399 --> 01:09:39.479
Wow.

1406
01:09:39.539 --> 01:09:44.159
I'd say, and it's in no way typical of the era, Caves of

1407
01:09:44.159 --> 01:09:44.939
Andrazani.

1408
01:09:45.000 --> 01:09:48.359
Okay, golly gosh, the romantic ones for me.

1409
01:09:48.420 --> 01:09:52.319
So no whole story, but moments in Castravalva, moments in

1410
01:09:52.319 --> 01:09:55.319
Enlightenment, even moments, the 1st episode of Black Orchid, I

1411
01:09:55.319 --> 01:09:56.640
really loved and found charming.

1412
01:09:56.699 --> 01:09:58.619
And it's what Pete's doctor should have been doing.

1413
01:09:58.680 --> 01:10:00.119
Keep it light.

1414
01:10:00.180 --> 01:10:01.319
One to avoid.

1415
01:10:01.920 --> 01:10:03.659
Terminus.

1416
01:10:03.720 --> 01:10:05.279
Black Orchid.

1417
01:10:05.340 --> 01:10:07.560
No, I'd have to say terminus as well.

1418
01:10:07.979 --> 01:10:09.840
The Dalek one.

1419
01:10:09.899 --> 01:10:11.279
Yeah.

1420
01:10:11.279 --> 01:10:12.060
Okay.

1421
01:10:12.119 --> 01:10:18.060
And one to be made into a spectacular, successful movie out there

1422
01:10:18.060 --> 01:10:19.079
starring Peter Davidson.

1423
01:10:19.140 --> 01:10:20.039
I'm going last.

1424
01:10:20.100 --> 01:10:20.819
So off you go.

1425
01:10:20.880 --> 01:10:22.260
I'm going frontios.

1426
01:10:22.319 --> 01:10:27.479
Oh, yeah, and that will really work in a proper hard SFY. yeah.

1427
01:10:27.600 --> 01:10:29.220
Enlightenment.

1428
01:10:29.279 --> 01:10:30.539
Oh no, that's cool.

1429
01:10:30.600 --> 01:10:31.380
Oh, actually.

1430
01:10:31.380 --> 01:10:35.699
Well, you get glimpse of glimpses of it in the special edition, but

1431
01:10:35.699 --> 01:10:36.659
it's not very good.

1432
01:10:36.720 --> 01:10:39.779
My runner-up is 4 to Doomsday.

1433
01:10:39.840 --> 01:10:41.039
Yeah, cool.

1434
01:10:41.100 --> 01:10:41.399
Yeah.

1435
01:10:41.460 --> 01:10:43.800
With William Hartold, yeah.

1436
01:10:44.939 --> 01:10:48.180
David Bradley. is really tough.

1437
01:10:49.500 --> 01:10:53.939
Look, I actually think the Kinder and Snake Dance combined as one

1438
01:10:53.939 --> 01:10:57.420
film and, you know, cross reference, I think, could be a really

1439
01:10:57.420 --> 01:11:01.199
interesting piece, but it would very quickly end up being Avatar

1440
01:11:01.199 --> 01:11:03.899
if you threw a lot of money at it, because Avatar, there's a lot

1441
01:11:03.899 --> 01:11:04.800
of that in Avatar.

1442
01:11:04.859 --> 01:11:05.880
So we need to be careful.

1443
01:11:06.300 --> 01:11:08.039
What we wish for.

1444
01:11:08.100 --> 01:11:09.600
Time flight.

1445
01:11:09.779 --> 01:11:12.960
Because I think there's some amazing concepts in there.

1446
01:11:13.020 --> 01:11:15.479
Nation's about to throw a piece of upholstery.

1447
01:11:15.539 --> 01:11:18.300
Nathan, is I'm about to get a bloody sofa.

1448
01:11:18.539 --> 01:11:19.920
Why?

1449
01:11:19.979 --> 01:11:21.300
Because, okay.

1450
01:11:21.359 --> 01:11:23.460
You can actually have some dinosaurs in there.

1451
01:11:23.520 --> 01:11:25.619
You can have some...

1452
01:11:25.619 --> 01:11:27.300
Okay, could look gorgeous, couldn't And you know what?

1453
01:11:27.359 --> 01:11:29.340
The Zeraphin idea.

1454
01:11:29.399 --> 01:11:32.220
The idea of this gestolt entity, which can also be a, which can

1455
01:11:32.220 --> 01:11:34.560
also be a power source is a fantastic idea.

1456
01:11:34.619 --> 01:11:38.640
I don't think there's anything wrong with the ideas in time flight

1457
01:11:38.640 --> 01:11:42.779
except the master is hiding as this alien for some reason.

1458
01:11:42.840 --> 01:11:45.779
Yeah, how would I was going to ask you, how would you pull that

1459
01:11:45.779 --> 01:11:45.960
in?

1460
01:11:46.079 --> 01:11:49.800
And well, that was that was a JNT suggestion.

1461
01:11:49.859 --> 01:11:51.420
That wasn't in the original script.

1462
01:11:51.479 --> 01:11:52.020
That's the thing.

1463
01:11:52.079 --> 01:11:53.819
So you just keep Khaled as Khala.

1464
01:11:53.880 --> 01:11:56.399
Well, either that or you just have the master.

1465
01:11:56.760 --> 01:12:00.479
Yeah, Khalid is a little bit kind of racist.

1466
01:12:00.539 --> 01:12:00.779
Yeah.

1467
01:12:01.260 --> 01:12:04.920
Because the reveal of the master is just there for a cliffhanger.

1468
01:12:04.979 --> 01:12:07.800
If you have it as a film, you don't need that reveal.

1469
01:12:07.859 --> 01:12:10.800
You just do the Doctor Who thing off, there's someone operating a

1470
01:12:10.800 --> 01:12:12.600
screen or you don't even know what's happening.

1471
01:12:12.659 --> 01:12:16.140
You don't know who's operating this until the doctor walks into

1472
01:12:16.140 --> 01:12:18.539
the room and sees this globe and the master says you never

1473
01:12:18.539 --> 01:12:19.979
understand what's going on, doctor.

1474
01:12:20.039 --> 01:12:22.739
Certainly the big problems with that story.

1475
01:12:22.800 --> 01:12:25.859
It has no money and so it looks crappy.

1476
01:12:25.859 --> 01:12:29.760
And then the end of it is a lot of Makano set sort of stuff.

1477
01:12:29.760 --> 01:12:32.819
And with a feature film that had money, you would actually be able

1478
01:12:32.819 --> 01:12:33.899
to do a proper climax.

1479
01:12:33.960 --> 01:12:34.800
Yeah, exactly.

1480
01:12:34.920 --> 01:12:38.100
You just want it as the last airport film, don't you?

1481
01:12:38.279 --> 01:12:42.960
It is, I'd have to say, a bit light on the ground to use a dead

1482
01:12:42.960 --> 01:12:43.560
pun.

1483
01:12:43.619 --> 01:12:47.220
But yeah, like any airport disaster movie, sure.

1484
01:12:47.279 --> 01:12:50.939
Well, you've got Lloyd Bridges in the in the air traffic control

1485
01:12:50.939 --> 01:12:53.880
room, which isn't just a cupboard saying, another Lost Concord?

1486
01:12:53.939 --> 01:12:55.920
Looks like I chose the wrong day to give up.

1487
01:12:56.039 --> 01:12:58.979
I don't want to see the shooting of that.

1488
01:13:00.420 --> 01:13:05.340
Wow, it's certainly not a response I even expected.

1489
01:13:05.399 --> 01:13:07.319
I think that's one of the things I'm taken away from this journey

1490
01:13:07.319 --> 01:13:10.920
is that there are moments where I'm just flawed by either

1491
01:13:10.920 --> 01:13:13.260
opinions...

1492
01:13:13.319 --> 01:13:14.939
Yes, who I'm sitting with?

1493
01:13:15.060 --> 01:13:17.279
opinions I never thought of, or things that I see on screen that I

1494
01:13:17.279 --> 01:13:19.380
never thought I'd never really watched before.

1495
01:13:19.439 --> 01:13:21.479
What have I been living with all these things?

1496
01:13:22.140 --> 01:13:27.420
Speaking of which, let's now go to the Tom Baker era.

1497
01:13:57.359 --> 01:14:00.420
I like to call it the Tom Baker era.

1498
01:14:00.479 --> 01:14:01.319
Oh, called, yeah.

1499
01:14:01.319 --> 01:14:02.640
Yeah, because there are three of them.

1500
01:14:02.760 --> 01:14:03.300
There are 3 of them.

1501
01:14:03.359 --> 01:14:06.420
And they are very much defined by the producers.

1502
01:14:06.479 --> 01:14:09.119
Also defending Tom.

1503
01:14:09.119 --> 01:14:10.979
Yeah, Tom's taking it seriously.

1504
01:14:11.039 --> 01:14:12.119
Tom's in control.

1505
01:14:12.180 --> 01:14:14.880
Oh dear, Tom's not in control anymore.

1506
01:14:14.939 --> 01:14:17.340
Oh, yes, behind the scenes, yes.

1507
01:14:20.399 --> 01:14:21.180
What can you say?

1508
01:14:21.239 --> 01:14:24.119
The man is just charismatic and I can watch him.

1509
01:14:24.180 --> 01:14:29.039
Like, from the moment he arrives to the moment he leaves, even in

1510
01:14:29.039 --> 01:14:34.439
underworld, which I can't stand, he, like, just is.

1511
01:14:34.500 --> 01:14:36.180
I just can't explain it.

1512
01:14:36.300 --> 01:14:36.899
He just is.

1513
01:14:37.020 --> 01:14:42.359
It's that moment he appears in Robot into John Pertwee's show and

1514
01:14:42.359 --> 01:14:46.260
completely just takes control of the entire show.

1515
01:14:46.380 --> 01:14:49.800
He just shows that I don't need a regular supporting cast.

1516
01:14:49.859 --> 01:14:52.859
I am absolutely fascinating to watch.

1517
01:14:52.920 --> 01:14:56.819
And, you know, that's why he never read the bits of the script

1518
01:14:56.819 --> 01:15:00.180
that he wasn't in, you know, because they're the bits that he

1519
01:15:00.180 --> 01:15:00.960
doesn't care about.

1520
01:15:01.020 --> 01:15:06.119
He's so massively, massively entertaining to watch the entire way

1521
01:15:06.119 --> 01:15:06.479
through.

1522
01:15:06.539 --> 01:15:12.060
And his performance changes, but all of the versions of Tom are

1523
01:15:12.060 --> 01:15:12.779
compelling to watch.

1524
01:15:12.840 --> 01:15:13.560
They are.

1525
01:15:13.619 --> 01:15:15.479
I mean, you've got, obviously, you've got the Hinchcliffe in the

1526
01:15:15.479 --> 01:15:19.619
1st three, and then you've got your Graham Williams in the next

1527
01:15:19.619 --> 01:15:19.920
three.

1528
01:15:19.979 --> 01:15:24.300
But I do think they're in that in that 4th series from Fang Rock

1529
01:15:24.300 --> 01:15:25.920
to Invasion of Time.

1530
01:15:25.979 --> 01:15:28.140
I think there is a change of performance from the beginning of

1531
01:15:28.140 --> 01:15:28.680
that to the end.

1532
01:15:28.739 --> 01:15:33.420
That's the one sequence where I do see for me anyway, a change

1533
01:15:33.479 --> 01:15:35.220
think it's a terrible season.

1534
01:15:35.279 --> 01:15:37.920
That was the biggest revelation for me is how much I absolutely

1535
01:15:37.920 --> 01:15:39.060
loathe that season.

1536
01:15:39.119 --> 01:15:43.800
It's by far my least favourite season of the Trombaker era, maybe

1537
01:15:43.800 --> 01:15:46.680
even in the 1970s. that's a big thing.

1538
01:15:46.739 --> 01:15:48.060
I really love horror of Fang Rock.

1539
01:15:48.119 --> 01:15:50.340
Everything else I could like wind blowing.

1540
01:15:50.399 --> 01:15:52.319
I mean, you love the sunmakers, et cetera, but I don't.

1541
01:15:52.500 --> 01:15:57.239
I think part of the reason for that, though, is season 15 is, in a

1542
01:15:57.239 --> 01:16:01.439
way, the time of biggest tumult for Doctor Who, since Hartnell's

1543
01:16:01.439 --> 01:16:06.659
3rd season, because even though Troughton's era had lots of

1544
01:16:06.659 --> 01:16:08.880
shifting producers, it was like the script editor would be the

1545
01:16:08.880 --> 01:16:11.640
producer for a week and then the associate producer would be the

1546
01:16:11.640 --> 01:16:12.359
producer for a week.

1547
01:16:12.420 --> 01:16:14.579
So it was still pretty much the same team of people.

1548
01:16:14.640 --> 01:16:17.340
And before Derek Sherwin came, became producer.

1549
01:16:17.399 --> 01:16:18.300
He been on the show for a year.

1550
01:16:18.359 --> 01:16:20.399
So there was still a consistency of tone.

1551
01:16:20.460 --> 01:16:22.500
And then you've got Robert Holmes.

1552
01:16:22.560 --> 01:16:23.520
And you've got Robert Holmes comes in.

1553
01:16:23.579 --> 01:16:25.079
Shadowing Terrence Dicks.

1554
01:16:25.079 --> 01:16:26.340
Yeah, yeah, and all that Passover.

1555
01:16:26.399 --> 01:16:29.220
But here you've got a big change of producer and script editor.

1556
01:16:29.279 --> 01:16:32.699
Yeah, and the change in producer was immediate because of

1557
01:16:32.699 --> 01:16:34.260
criticism of the violence.

1558
01:16:34.319 --> 01:16:38.939
Pretty much while they were making, I think it was robots of death

1559
01:16:38.939 --> 01:16:41.760
Philip Hinchcliffe was told, you're being taken off the show next

1560
01:16:41.760 --> 01:16:41.939
year.

1561
01:16:42.539 --> 01:16:47.039
And so Graham Williams, who'd been preparing this crime show, which

1562
01:16:47.039 --> 01:16:48.659
Philip Hinchcliffe was now going to be put on.

1563
01:16:48.720 --> 01:16:50.159
Target, yeah.

1564
01:16:50.220 --> 01:16:54.239
Graham Williams was suddenly thrust into this world of sci-fi and

1565
01:16:54.239 --> 01:16:59.819
arrived with, as he puts it, -one script because the vampire

1566
01:16:59.819 --> 01:17:01.619
mutations was pulled out from under him.

1567
01:17:01.680 --> 01:17:03.960
So, you know, Hinchcliffe did his best to make sure that his

1568
01:17:03.960 --> 01:17:06.359
successor had something, which the BBC then vetoed.

1569
01:17:06.479 --> 01:17:08.159
But not money, but not money.

1570
01:17:08.220 --> 01:17:12.300
But that is the 1st season where you don't have money, right?

1571
01:17:12.359 --> 01:17:15.539
And I honestly think you've got a, the Dr. Leila relationship in

1572
01:17:15.539 --> 01:17:17.460
that year is just awful.

1573
01:17:17.579 --> 01:17:22.619
It presages the we complain about Perry and the 6th doctor, but

1574
01:17:22.619 --> 01:17:24.359
we're really getting quite a bit of it here, aren't we?

1575
01:17:24.420 --> 01:17:25.979
That's when I get out of it.

1576
01:17:26.039 --> 01:17:29.159
Rabbits of Death, Towns of Winchaying, horror Frank Rock.

1577
01:17:29.220 --> 01:17:30.960
Just extraordinary.

1578
01:17:31.020 --> 01:17:31.619
Yeah.

1579
01:17:31.680 --> 01:17:35.220
But that's the thing with, I imagine with Tom at the time.

1580
01:17:35.279 --> 01:17:37.319
Of course, Tom didn't want an assistant at all.

1581
01:17:37.380 --> 01:17:39.539
He thought, you know, just have a new cast every week.

1582
01:17:39.600 --> 01:17:42.119
And he didn't like the character of leader setup either.

1583
01:17:42.180 --> 01:17:45.960
Although he was great in the 3 stories that tortures me.

1584
01:17:46.020 --> 01:17:46.979
Yeah, yeah.

1585
01:17:47.039 --> 01:17:49.859
And, you know, he came to respect Louise Jameson as an actress.

1586
01:17:51.119 --> 01:17:51.720
And later.

1587
01:17:51.779 --> 01:17:55.500
Much like, much like Hartnell in season three.

1588
01:17:55.560 --> 01:18:00.600
Tom, suddenly, Philip Hinchcliffe, who was an instrumental part of

1589
01:18:00.600 --> 01:18:02.579
his casting, along with Barry.

1590
01:18:02.640 --> 01:18:03.779
So Philip Hinchcliffe is gone.

1591
01:18:03.840 --> 01:18:05.640
Liz Laddin is gone.

1592
01:18:05.699 --> 01:18:07.859
Robert Holmes is going.

1593
01:18:07.920 --> 01:18:12.239
This new producers come in, who Tom has never met before.

1594
01:18:12.300 --> 01:18:15.359
Eventually, a new script editor who Tom has never met before, and

1595
01:18:15.359 --> 01:18:16.739
a character he doesn't agree with.

1596
01:18:17.880 --> 01:18:21.239
Introduced at a time where he doesn't even want a supporting

1597
01:18:21.239 --> 01:18:21.539
character.

1598
01:18:21.659 --> 01:18:23.279
So you know, 1st of all, I don't want one.

1599
01:18:23.340 --> 01:18:24.720
Second of all, I don't like the character.

1600
01:18:25.020 --> 01:18:28.619
And yeah, he was talking about leaving at the end of that year.

1601
01:18:28.680 --> 01:18:32.159
And I actually think that Louise Jameson standing up to him and

1602
01:18:32.159 --> 01:18:35.340
saying, look, Tom, whether you like it or not, I'm here.

1603
01:18:35.399 --> 01:18:36.479
I've been contracted.

1604
01:18:36.539 --> 01:18:38.039
We might as well work together.

1605
01:18:38.579 --> 01:18:40.920
And that made Tom...

1606
01:18:40.920 --> 01:18:42.899
Just kick him a bit in the nuts when she says it.

1607
01:18:42.899 --> 01:18:43.859
Just a little nudge.

1608
01:18:43.920 --> 01:18:47.460
And they both kind of say they both kind of say that that kind of

1609
01:18:47.460 --> 01:18:50.640
snapped Tom out of it to realise he's dealing with a person, which

1610
01:18:50.640 --> 01:18:54.840
is quite, which is quite prescient of how the internet works.

1611
01:18:54.960 --> 01:18:58.979
And you know, you then see towards the end of the season, he

1612
01:18:58.979 --> 01:19:00.720
starts playing it more for comedy.

1613
01:19:00.779 --> 01:19:04.199
And I think he kind of went, okay, I need to do something new.

1614
01:19:04.260 --> 01:19:07.680
They don't want the broody stuff that Philip Hinchcliffe was doing

1615
01:19:07.680 --> 01:19:09.539
because the BBC don't like that anymore.

1616
01:19:09.600 --> 01:19:10.619
I'll do something different.

1617
01:19:10.680 --> 01:19:12.840
So when we get into his 5th season.

1618
01:19:12.899 --> 01:19:14.939
He's far more back in the flow.

1619
01:19:15.000 --> 01:19:16.680
He adored Mary Tam.

1620
01:19:16.739 --> 01:19:17.819
You know.

1621
01:19:17.880 --> 01:19:19.319
She also knew exactly how to handle him.

1622
01:19:19.439 --> 01:19:20.520
Yes, yes.

1623
01:19:20.579 --> 01:19:22.079
What's it called?

1624
01:19:22.140 --> 01:19:22.739
something detachment?

1625
01:19:23.520 --> 01:19:25.560
Syndrome, yeah.

1626
01:19:25.619 --> 01:19:28.380
It was called taking a sabbatical from it.

1627
01:19:29.100 --> 01:19:31.619
And you know, I'm so glad she did.

1628
01:19:31.680 --> 01:19:32.819
Yeah, me too.

1629
01:19:32.880 --> 01:19:33.539
Me too.

1630
01:19:33.600 --> 01:19:37.380
And then you've got that, and then you've got the final season

1631
01:19:37.380 --> 01:19:41.159
which has its own sort of feel, the older doctor and the

1632
01:19:41.159 --> 01:19:45.359
dismantling of the team and the era around him, which I think is a

1633
01:19:45.359 --> 01:19:45.720
great season.

1634
01:19:46.380 --> 01:19:51.119
Yeah, I think Tom works really, really well in that season.

1635
01:19:51.180 --> 01:19:55.439
He's given 2 acting roles, you know, as old Tom in the leisure

1636
01:19:55.439 --> 01:19:57.960
hive. and as Meglos in Meglos.

1637
01:19:58.020 --> 01:20:01.020
Yes, and decorative balcony.

1638
01:20:02.699 --> 01:20:09.300
But he, his sadness and just, you know, he just feels a little bit

1639
01:20:09.300 --> 01:20:09.720
old.

1640
01:20:09.779 --> 01:20:12.720
He, you can sense he's a little bit over it.

1641
01:20:12.779 --> 01:20:17.520
But that season is so complex and so thematically unified.

1642
01:20:17.640 --> 01:20:21.180
Lots of Bergman in it, lots of in my Bergman. not just his death

1643
01:20:21.180 --> 01:20:21.539
wish.

1644
01:20:21.600 --> 01:20:24.840
There's a reason he tries to land the TARDIS under the team is to

1645
01:20:24.840 --> 01:20:26.279
flush out Andrew.

1646
01:20:26.340 --> 01:20:30.600
You know, that's it, the hands of Christopher Hamilton Bidmead, who

1647
01:20:30.600 --> 01:20:34.619
I think can't be praised enough.

1648
01:20:34.680 --> 01:20:35.579
Yeah, agree.

1649
01:20:35.640 --> 01:20:36.899
I think that's a wonderful season.

1650
01:20:37.020 --> 01:20:38.880
Less also not forget.

1651
01:20:38.939 --> 01:20:40.199
I don't know about.

1652
01:20:40.260 --> 01:20:42.479
I mean, I talked to the man on Twitter, and I find him really

1653
01:20:42.479 --> 01:20:44.819
terrific, and sometimes he likes what I say.

1654
01:20:44.880 --> 01:20:47.159
So, of course, we're going to get married next year if I have

1655
01:20:47.159 --> 01:20:47.939
anything to do with it.

1656
01:20:48.000 --> 01:20:51.960
He was given from on high that poison chalice of take the comedy

1657
01:20:51.960 --> 01:20:52.319
out.

1658
01:20:52.380 --> 01:20:53.640
Yes.

1659
01:20:53.760 --> 01:20:54.899
And what do you do with that?

1660
01:20:54.960 --> 01:20:57.720
Well, I think he actually says in retrospect, and we might have

1661
01:20:57.720 --> 01:21:01.739
said this at the time, that he feels that he went too far with the

1662
01:21:01.739 --> 01:21:02.399
leisure high.

1663
01:21:02.520 --> 01:21:04.680
Alice certainly pointed it out once or twice.

1664
01:21:04.739 --> 01:21:07.560
It's a magic box, please.

1665
01:21:07.680 --> 01:21:09.899
I think I think there's a rebalance.

1666
01:21:09.960 --> 01:21:11.520
Yeah, I do too.

1667
01:21:11.579 --> 01:21:12.479
That's the thing.

1668
01:21:12.539 --> 01:21:17.880
As a kid, I found season 18 quite humourless, but it's just that

1669
01:21:17.880 --> 01:21:21.060
the humour becomes more subtle, and that's not to necessarily say

1670
01:21:21.060 --> 01:21:24.539
it's better than season 17, which I adore.

1671
01:21:24.600 --> 01:21:28.500
But I do think, you know, Tom gets wonderful lines like, oh

1672
01:21:28.500 --> 01:21:31.859
normally I'm so good with children, which the previous season, he

1673
01:21:31.859 --> 01:21:33.119
would have said, he died.

1674
01:21:33.180 --> 01:21:34.979
Normally, I'm so good with children.

1675
01:21:35.039 --> 01:21:35.819
You know?

1676
01:21:35.819 --> 01:21:36.960
Yes, yes, yes.

1677
01:21:37.020 --> 01:21:38.880
It still, it still would have been funny, but it means the jokes

1678
01:21:38.880 --> 01:21:43.079
we do get, very often they're more, they're cleverer jokes as

1679
01:21:43.079 --> 01:21:43.439
well.

1680
01:21:43.500 --> 01:21:48.960
And the weird thing is, I find it hard to imagine the leisure hive

1681
01:21:48.960 --> 01:21:50.399
being better with more jokes.

1682
01:21:50.460 --> 01:21:55.859
I think it's magnificent as it is Well, I think that, you know, if

1683
01:21:55.859 --> 01:22:00.000
we were to name, I've got a whole bunch of heroes from this era.

1684
01:22:00.060 --> 01:22:07.319
But JNT might be one of them because he is very keen to do to

1685
01:22:07.319 --> 01:22:10.619
refresh a show that had become really tired.

1686
01:22:10.680 --> 01:22:13.800
And there were lots and lots of spaceship corridors in the

1687
01:22:13.800 --> 01:22:15.420
previous season.

1688
01:22:15.479 --> 01:22:20.279
And the show looks so much more interesting and is much more

1689
01:22:20.279 --> 01:22:21.960
experimental visually.

1690
01:22:21.960 --> 01:22:26.939
And the leisure hive, I think, is the best looking story of the

1691
01:22:26.939 --> 01:22:32.579
era, even when it's effects look cheap or aren't sort of

1692
01:22:32.579 --> 01:22:33.899
particularly impressive.

1693
01:22:33.960 --> 01:22:39.899
It's so interestingly directed, uh, and so well done that I don't

1694
01:22:39.899 --> 01:22:42.060
have a version of the leisure hive in my head that would be

1695
01:22:42.060 --> 01:22:42.300
better.

1696
01:22:42.359 --> 01:22:46.020
As a producer, like it is his hero moment.

1697
01:22:46.079 --> 01:22:50.640
That season is his hero moment, in terms of managing to build a

1698
01:22:50.640 --> 01:22:55.079
new team, to give Tom to ground the show, to bring it into the 80s

1699
01:22:55.079 --> 01:22:55.439
all of that.

1700
01:22:55.500 --> 01:22:56.699
I agree.

1701
01:22:56.760 --> 01:23:00.779
On the same side of the coin, I also consider Graham Williams to

1702
01:23:00.779 --> 01:23:03.000
be one of the heroes of the era in terms of being able to get the

1703
01:23:03.000 --> 01:23:06.239
show onto air considering budget and scripting and all sorts of

1704
01:23:06.239 --> 01:23:09.960
problems behind the scenes, even though, you know, some of it

1705
01:23:09.960 --> 01:23:11.039
works and some of it doesn't.

1706
01:23:11.100 --> 01:23:17.399
But, I mean, season 16 looks fantastic. you know, maybe up until

1707
01:23:17.399 --> 01:23:21.960
the very end and is incredibly entertaining.

1708
01:23:22.020 --> 01:23:26.159
And what Williams gets to do is play to the strengths of his lead

1709
01:23:26.159 --> 01:23:33.239
to allow Tom to take centre stage and be really interesting and to

1710
01:23:33.239 --> 01:23:34.140
make the show fun.

1711
01:23:34.260 --> 01:23:38.279
He was, as we said before, given an absolute killer brief, you

1712
01:23:38.279 --> 01:23:42.960
know, like he's no money and you aren't allowed to be violent

1713
01:23:42.960 --> 01:23:43.260
anymore.

1714
01:23:43.319 --> 01:23:47.100
And he makes a show that's really just smart and incredibly

1715
01:23:47.100 --> 01:23:47.699
enjoyable.

1716
01:23:47.760 --> 01:23:52.560
What I find amazing about the 3 eras is the Hingecliff era is

1717
01:23:52.560 --> 01:23:57.239
unashamedly based on classic cinema and classic sci-fi cinema.

1718
01:23:57.659 --> 01:24:03.119
The Graham Williams era, he looks more to literary influences and

1719
01:24:03.119 --> 01:24:03.779
mythology.

1720
01:24:04.619 --> 01:24:08.520
And the final season looks to science.

1721
01:24:08.579 --> 01:24:09.239
Yeah.

1722
01:24:09.239 --> 01:24:19.319
And so, Doctor Who is about antecedents, even more, I think, than

1723
01:24:19.319 --> 01:24:21.000
the previous 2 eras.

1724
01:24:21.000 --> 01:24:25.140
It's about antecedents really for the 1st time, in my opinion, in

1725
01:24:25.140 --> 01:24:29.100
a big way, since Verity Lambert was in charge, because Verity

1726
01:24:29.100 --> 01:24:31.619
Lambert was always looking at what's going on in science right

1727
01:24:31.619 --> 01:24:32.699
now.

1728
01:24:32.760 --> 01:24:34.260
What did they do in Quator Mass?

1729
01:24:34.319 --> 01:24:35.039
How can we use that?

1730
01:24:35.100 --> 01:24:38.819
And the original conception for the unit era was very Quator Mass

1731
01:24:38.819 --> 01:24:44.220
and quickly moved away from that kind of earth-base thing, to

1732
01:24:44.220 --> 01:24:45.899
develop its own earth-base thing, which is wonderful.

1733
01:24:45.960 --> 01:24:51.479
But the great thing about having Tom's era based on all these

1734
01:24:51.479 --> 01:24:55.560
different things is if you don't know what it's based on, that's

1735
01:24:55.560 --> 01:24:55.859
fine.

1736
01:24:56.100 --> 01:24:59.640
But if you do, it's that extra little bit of excitement.

1737
01:24:59.699 --> 01:25:02.699
I think Hinchcliffe possibly leans a bit too heavily and the

1738
01:25:02.699 --> 01:25:07.920
sources are a bit too revealed and, you know, it's obvious, whereas

1739
01:25:07.920 --> 01:25:09.300
I think Graham Williams.

1740
01:25:09.420 --> 01:25:13.979
Graham Williams is really interesting to me because as much as I

1741
01:25:13.979 --> 01:25:17.399
love his last 2 seasons, and I agree with you, Todd, that season

1742
01:25:17.399 --> 01:25:18.539
15 is quite weak.

1743
01:25:18.600 --> 01:25:24.659
It always feels to me like the same way John Nathan Turner was

1744
01:25:24.659 --> 01:25:26.279
feeling in the Colin Baker era.

1745
01:25:26.340 --> 01:25:30.720
John Nathan Turner became tired after 3 or 4 years and got

1746
01:25:30.720 --> 01:25:31.979
reinvigorated at the end.

1747
01:25:32.039 --> 01:25:35.640
Graham Williams came into Doctor Who Tired and on the run for 3

1748
01:25:35.640 --> 01:25:35.939
years.

1749
01:25:36.000 --> 01:25:38.460
So I agree, it's amazing. got anything out.

1750
01:25:38.520 --> 01:25:43.199
And I think the success of those last 2 years are entirely, I

1751
01:25:43.199 --> 01:25:44.399
wouldn't, sorry, not entirely.

1752
01:25:44.460 --> 01:25:45.300
I shouldn't say entirely.

1753
01:25:45.359 --> 01:25:50.159
I think the success of those last 2 years in terms of script is

1754
01:25:50.159 --> 01:25:52.140
down to the script editor.

1755
01:25:52.199 --> 01:25:58.800
I think Anthony Reid and Douglas Adams put so much of themselves

1756
01:25:58.800 --> 01:26:01.020
and their own voice into the show.

1757
01:26:01.020 --> 01:26:04.560
And it, you know, you obviously notice it with Douglas Adams

1758
01:26:04.560 --> 01:26:05.760
because he became so famous.

1759
01:26:05.819 --> 01:26:08.399
But Anthony Reid, of course, didn't become terribly famous.

1760
01:26:08.460 --> 01:26:11.880
I didn't realise until watching the making of some of the special

1761
01:26:11.880 --> 01:26:14.939
features, which have so much stuff from him and so much input as

1762
01:26:14.939 --> 01:26:17.939
to what his vision of the show was, that you realise, yeah, you

1763
01:26:17.939 --> 01:26:21.960
put your fingerprints on this show just as much as Douglas Adams

1764
01:26:21.960 --> 01:26:22.140
did.

1765
01:26:22.260 --> 01:26:23.939
So he's one of your heroes.

1766
01:26:24.000 --> 01:26:28.800
Yeah, I would actually say Anthony Reid is probably the one person

1767
01:26:28.800 --> 01:26:29.579
I hold up.

1768
01:26:29.640 --> 01:26:32.819
And as you say, Nathan, There are so many people you could hold

1769
01:26:32.819 --> 01:26:33.119
up.

1770
01:26:33.180 --> 01:26:37.319
So I'm going to hold up, Anthony Reid, because Graham Williams had

1771
01:26:37.319 --> 01:26:40.140
this crazy idea of giving the doctor a mission, which I think we

1772
01:26:40.140 --> 01:26:41.579
said at the time is a stupid idea.

1773
01:26:42.060 --> 01:26:43.739
But...

1774
01:26:43.739 --> 01:26:47.220
He and Anthony Reed make it work.

1775
01:26:47.279 --> 01:26:49.859
And when you look at something like Invasion of Time, which they

1776
01:26:49.859 --> 01:26:53.220
wrote together, which...

1777
01:26:53.340 --> 01:26:53.939
Me too.

1778
01:26:54.000 --> 01:26:58.680
And it's made on no money with a script they thought they had in

1779
01:26:58.680 --> 01:27:00.600
the bag and suddenly fell through.

1780
01:27:00.600 --> 01:27:03.720
And they're like, what can we use?

1781
01:27:03.779 --> 01:27:05.039
We've got these sets in storage.

1782
01:27:05.100 --> 01:27:06.600
We've got this old hospital we can use.

1783
01:27:06.659 --> 01:27:09.779
It's making a six-part Doctor Who story.

1784
01:27:09.840 --> 01:27:12.840
You could probably cut 20 minutes out of it, to be honest, but it

1785
01:27:12.840 --> 01:27:14.640
still manages to be largely entertaining.

1786
01:27:14.699 --> 01:27:16.619
It's got a terrible writeout for Leila.

1787
01:27:16.680 --> 01:27:18.000
But until that last 5 minutes.

1788
01:27:18.359 --> 01:27:21.779
You wouldn't know that they were in this disaster.

1789
01:27:22.859 --> 01:27:24.659
I don't know about that.

1790
01:27:24.720 --> 01:27:26.880
I might be Armageddon factor.

1791
01:27:27.000 --> 01:27:28.619
Well, exactly.

1792
01:27:28.680 --> 01:27:30.659
It's their magnificent Ambersons.

1793
01:27:30.720 --> 01:27:33.600
So yes, all those flaws can make something quite great.

1794
01:27:33.659 --> 01:27:35.039
They can aerate the mix.

1795
01:27:35.100 --> 01:27:38.640
I'm continuing with the baking committer for you.

1796
01:27:38.699 --> 01:27:39.840
So, so who?

1797
01:27:39.840 --> 01:27:42.840
Oh, what are your hero?

1798
01:27:42.899 --> 01:27:44.880
I was also going to say Anthony Reed, but for slightly different

1799
01:27:44.880 --> 01:27:48.960
reasons, but I would also say, again, it's about the mix and the

1800
01:27:48.960 --> 01:27:51.720
contrasts, and I don't think we would have loved Tom or it could

1801
01:27:51.720 --> 01:27:52.680
have gone on for so long.

1802
01:27:52.739 --> 01:27:57.060
If there wasn't this continual change in aeration and rebuilding

1803
01:27:57.060 --> 01:27:58.140
it, just what we were saying before.

1804
01:27:58.199 --> 01:27:58.920
Dont stay too long.

1805
01:27:58.979 --> 01:28:01.800
But Tom, you can stay as long as you like because you kept

1806
01:28:01.800 --> 01:28:02.220
changing.

1807
01:28:02.279 --> 01:28:05.279
I like death nil, Tom, now as an older person.

1808
01:28:05.340 --> 01:28:07.979
Because I came to Tom when I was eight.

1809
01:28:08.039 --> 01:28:10.859
That was when it 1st started showing and I was 13, I think, when

1810
01:28:10.859 --> 01:28:11.699
he finally left.

1811
01:28:11.760 --> 01:28:13.560
So it's engrained.

1812
01:28:13.619 --> 01:28:15.479
It's tattooed on the frontal lobes.

1813
01:28:15.539 --> 01:28:17.880
I'm never, ever going to be able to get away from him.

1814
01:28:17.939 --> 01:28:19.319
I'm so glad he's still here.

1815
01:28:19.380 --> 01:28:23.100
I'm really grateful for everyone that passed through it.

1816
01:28:23.159 --> 01:28:25.560
And there was no one I would wish had not been there.

1817
01:28:25.680 --> 01:28:28.199
And even for as long as they were there.

1818
01:28:28.260 --> 01:28:29.819
That's much like life, isn't it, really?

1819
01:28:29.880 --> 01:28:31.739
You look back at Je ne pas.

1820
01:28:31.800 --> 01:28:35.279
I think Anthony I think Anthony Reid.

1821
01:28:35.340 --> 01:28:38.939
I do think there are stories in his era that are far worse than

1822
01:28:38.939 --> 01:28:39.539
other eras.

1823
01:28:39.600 --> 01:28:42.359
Sorry, is what I was hellishly trying to say.

1824
01:28:42.420 --> 01:28:43.260
But yeah, yeah.

1825
01:28:43.319 --> 01:28:44.220
Sorry, Top God.

1826
01:28:44.279 --> 01:28:46.020
I do think that in Anthony Mizero.

1827
01:28:46.079 --> 01:28:48.659
I think there are poorer stories than in others, but they're often

1828
01:28:48.659 --> 01:28:51.840
at the hands of Budget and Bob Baker and Dave Martin.

1829
01:28:53.100 --> 01:28:56.819
And they are one of the villains that I would say of the era.

1830
01:28:56.939 --> 01:29:02.460
I think there's a previous episode of Flies through Entirety, where

1831
01:29:02.460 --> 01:29:05.939
someone gives me, probably Brandon gives me a list of all of the

1832
01:29:05.939 --> 01:29:10.319
stories that Bob Baker and Dave Martin wrote, and I suddenly

1833
01:29:10.319 --> 01:29:12.840
realise how truly, truly horrific.

1834
01:29:14.100 --> 01:29:15.840
Yeah, yeah.

1835
01:29:15.960 --> 01:29:19.020
You can hear the sound of my realisation.

1836
01:29:19.020 --> 01:29:20.220
The Bristol Bombers, yeah.

1837
01:29:21.539 --> 01:29:22.619
We're talking a lot of behind.

1838
01:29:23.279 --> 01:29:25.079
You're talking?

1839
01:29:25.079 --> 01:29:26.699
It's true. rubbish.

1840
01:29:27.239 --> 01:29:32.340
Behind the scenes, people, like various people, but in front of

1841
01:29:32.340 --> 01:29:35.520
the camera, besides Tom, who is obviously a big hero, I just want

1842
01:29:35.520 --> 01:29:42.239
to point out in Marta, Elizabeth Spaden, Mary Tam, and Lala Ward.

1843
01:29:42.300 --> 01:29:46.739
I won't talk about the people going into the next Europe, but that

1844
01:29:46.739 --> 01:29:52.079
run of companions and actors spectacular.

1845
01:29:52.140 --> 01:29:54.359
You know, they sell it.

1846
01:29:54.420 --> 01:29:58.079
They can make gold out of mud if they have to.

1847
01:29:58.140 --> 01:29:59.340
Yeah.

1848
01:29:59.340 --> 01:30:02.100
Khaliz really came alive with Tom too.

1849
01:30:02.159 --> 01:30:06.000
We need to say she's a very different character in season, season

1850
01:30:06.000 --> 01:30:06.899
with Tom.

1851
01:30:06.960 --> 01:30:10.800
I'll even say Matthew Waterhouse, final two, final two.

1852
01:30:10.859 --> 01:30:14.760
You know, he actually delivers some solid of performances with an

1853
01:30:14.760 --> 01:30:17.520
actor who knows what he's doing, and there's a bit of confidence

1854
01:30:17.520 --> 01:30:18.359
there in him.

1855
01:30:18.600 --> 01:30:23.100
Can I just say that I don't think we should leave the era without

1856
01:30:23.100 --> 01:30:25.979
talking about Bob Holmes.

1857
01:30:25.979 --> 01:30:27.479
John Leeson.

1858
01:30:27.539 --> 01:30:28.380
Sorry, I forgot John Lisa.

1859
01:30:28.439 --> 01:30:29.159
He's also part of it.

1860
01:30:29.220 --> 01:30:30.119
Sorry, John.

1861
01:30:30.180 --> 01:30:31.560
And David Bryanley.

1862
01:30:31.619 --> 01:30:33.420
No, he's not a hero.

1863
01:30:33.539 --> 01:30:36.899
That's the episode title and David Bryan.

1864
01:30:37.020 --> 01:30:39.420
But the smoking bike in the room.

1865
01:30:39.539 --> 01:30:41.399
I nominate him for something?

1866
01:30:41.460 --> 01:30:42.420
Villain.

1867
01:30:42.479 --> 01:30:43.859
No, I can see.

1868
01:30:43.920 --> 01:30:46.979
Look, he is a polarising figure and I think that that's completely

1869
01:30:46.979 --> 01:30:51.359
reasonable and there are nasty things about the Hinchcliffe era

1870
01:30:51.359 --> 01:30:55.439
and Holmes is almost certainly to blame for like 80% of them.

1871
01:30:55.500 --> 01:30:56.520
Where are the women?

1872
01:30:56.579 --> 01:30:57.899
Sarah's treatment.

1873
01:30:57.960 --> 01:31:01.680
He dismantles everything and takes the show away from Earth, and I

1874
01:31:01.680 --> 01:31:02.220
think that's a problem.

1875
01:31:02.279 --> 01:31:04.619
I think taking the show away from Earth is a problem as well.

1876
01:31:04.680 --> 01:31:06.600
But look at that 1st thing.

1877
01:31:06.600 --> 01:31:07.319
It had to be done though.

1878
01:31:07.380 --> 01:31:11.100
But boy, he's a great writer and you just, you know, he creates

1879
01:31:11.100 --> 01:31:14.880
these worlds that are vastly bigger than the story that they're

1880
01:31:14.880 --> 01:31:15.899
in.

1881
01:31:15.960 --> 01:31:18.899
He is super funny.

1882
01:31:18.960 --> 01:31:20.760
He's very clever with words.

1883
01:31:20.819 --> 01:31:22.800
He's brilliant with characterisation.

1884
01:31:22.859 --> 01:31:24.119
He doesn't like anyone.

1885
01:31:24.180 --> 01:31:27.420
He hates everyone and everything.

1886
01:31:27.479 --> 01:31:29.520
You know, he's all my favourite things.

1887
01:31:29.579 --> 01:31:30.600
He's a column.

1888
01:31:31.079 --> 01:31:33.060
I think he's so great.

1889
01:31:33.119 --> 01:31:37.619
And you remember we did the pert we retrospective and I was asked

1890
01:31:37.619 --> 01:31:40.560
my top 3 stories and it was just all of the Bob Holmes stories.

1891
01:31:40.619 --> 01:31:42.659
He's such an accomplished writer.

1892
01:31:42.720 --> 01:31:47.100
And the uptick in quality between robot and arc in space.

1893
01:31:47.159 --> 01:31:50.760
I don't think has ever been equalled in the shows history.

1894
01:31:50.819 --> 01:31:54.359
Much as I love robot, Arc in Space just takes it to a whole new

1895
01:31:54.359 --> 01:31:54.659
level.

1896
01:31:54.720 --> 01:31:57.840
And he is so incredibly good.

1897
01:31:57.899 --> 01:32:02.579
But absolutely understandably polarising and cynical and terrible

1898
01:32:02.579 --> 01:32:03.300
in many ways.

1899
01:32:03.600 --> 01:32:05.460
It's fantastic.

1900
01:32:05.520 --> 01:32:07.140
And he's also villain.

1901
01:32:07.199 --> 01:32:08.699
But he's also a hero.

1902
01:32:08.760 --> 01:32:11.279
You know, I'm right with you there, Nathan.

1903
01:32:11.340 --> 01:32:13.920
No, I think he's one of the best riders ever. written for the

1904
01:32:13.920 --> 01:32:14.039
show.

1905
01:32:14.100 --> 01:32:17.640
And the number of times he starts a season and reboots the show

1906
01:32:17.699 --> 01:32:18.300
incredible.

1907
01:32:18.420 --> 01:32:25.199
What I find so amazing about him is for Tom's 1st 4 seasons.

1908
01:32:25.739 --> 01:32:28.439
Actually, even the key to time season.

1909
01:32:28.500 --> 01:32:31.859
He steps in and writes at least one script that was meant to be

1910
01:32:31.859 --> 01:32:32.699
another writer.

1911
01:32:32.760 --> 01:32:38.159
The Ark in Space, Pyramids of Mars, Talons of Wang Chiang, the

1912
01:32:38.159 --> 01:32:41.520
Sunmakers, wasn't meant to be written by another writer, but Bob

1913
01:32:41.520 --> 01:32:46.800
stepped in because they had a deficiency of scripts and Power of

1914
01:32:46.800 --> 01:32:48.539
Kroll, was a replacement script.

1915
01:32:48.600 --> 01:32:52.079
So, you know, for each of those 5 years.

1916
01:32:52.140 --> 01:32:57.659
And it's a bit hard to say, but because he's no longer with us, and

1917
01:32:57.659 --> 01:33:01.560
of course, around the time he passed away in the mid 80s was when

1918
01:33:01.560 --> 01:33:05.100
Doctor Who magazine started doing all these really in-depth

1919
01:33:05.100 --> 01:33:07.979
interviews, you know, so they did have some interviews with him

1920
01:33:07.979 --> 01:33:11.100
but he never seemed to complain about that.

1921
01:33:11.159 --> 01:33:14.220
It just like, nope, we've got to have that 4 episodes.

1922
01:33:14.279 --> 01:33:15.180
I'll do it.

1923
01:33:15.239 --> 01:33:17.579
You know, we've already discussed the story with the writer, so

1924
01:33:17.579 --> 01:33:18.659
I'll take some of the ideas.

1925
01:33:18.720 --> 01:33:21.659
So, you know, the arc in space was drastically different from what

1926
01:33:21.659 --> 01:33:23.819
John Lucarate was planning, but still in the same setting.

1927
01:33:23.880 --> 01:33:25.920
Get to Talons of Wang Chiang.

1928
01:33:25.979 --> 01:33:29.399
It's almost completely different from Diffo from the future, which

1929
01:33:29.399 --> 01:33:31.920
was eventually adapted very well by Big Finish.

1930
01:33:31.979 --> 01:33:34.560
That one was either adapted by John Dorney or Johnny Morris.

1931
01:33:34.619 --> 01:33:36.720
I can't remember who, but really, really good.

1932
01:33:36.779 --> 01:33:39.359
But, yeah, I mean, I have to agree.

1933
01:33:39.779 --> 01:33:46.680
That the way he presents the show is not always to my taste, but

1934
01:33:46.680 --> 01:33:52.380
the scripts he writes himself. are among some of my favourites.

1935
01:33:52.439 --> 01:33:57.359
The Arkin space is held up quite rightly as an archetypal

1936
01:33:57.359 --> 01:33:57.840
classic.

1937
01:33:58.140 --> 01:33:59.760
It still works.

1938
01:33:59.819 --> 01:34:00.600
Still works.

1939
01:34:01.380 --> 01:34:04.560
Richard, anything to add on that?

1940
01:34:04.619 --> 01:34:08.760
I'm trying to look up the old story titles to just go back and

1941
01:34:08.760 --> 01:34:11.220
remember it all because there's so much richness in it.

1942
01:34:11.699 --> 01:34:16.739
I, I think, again, it's the combination of all of the things in

1943
01:34:16.739 --> 01:34:20.699
that Holmes had so had too many ideas, so many ideas that he

1944
01:34:20.699 --> 01:34:23.340
didn't get them all done in the time that he was there, and then

1945
01:34:23.340 --> 01:34:26.640
when he, then he left, he was just left with the jaded flavours

1946
01:34:26.640 --> 01:34:30.600
which is sometimes, just like when you're deglazing the pan, at

1947
01:34:30.600 --> 01:34:34.079
the chewiest and bitterest and best that are left.

1948
01:34:34.140 --> 01:34:37.680
So he's even 2 doctors, or you could say mysterious planet, there's

1949
01:34:37.680 --> 01:34:42.119
still so much unctuous biting bitterness in that that you can

1950
01:34:42.119 --> 01:34:43.859
still say, yeah, there's still good stuff in there.

1951
01:34:43.920 --> 01:34:45.119
Okay.

1952
01:34:45.180 --> 01:34:46.739
One to watch.

1953
01:34:46.800 --> 01:34:48.479
One to watch.

1954
01:34:48.539 --> 01:34:49.979
Androids of Tyron.

1955
01:34:50.039 --> 01:34:53.520
Well, even though that's my favourite, I'm not, I'm not going to

1956
01:34:53.520 --> 01:34:55.739
suggest that just because it is so atypical.

1957
01:34:55.800 --> 01:34:58.800
I would actually say.

1958
01:34:59.460 --> 01:35:01.619
No, actually, come back to me.

1959
01:35:01.680 --> 01:35:03.359
It's too hard. too hard right now.

1960
01:35:03.420 --> 01:35:04.920
Seeds of Doom.

1961
01:35:04.979 --> 01:35:05.760
City of death.

1962
01:35:05.819 --> 01:35:07.859
I was going to say Seeds of Doom as well.

1963
01:35:07.920 --> 01:35:10.739
You know, because it's their 2 movies.

1964
01:35:10.859 --> 01:35:12.180
That would also be my movie choice.

1965
01:35:12.300 --> 01:35:16.079
But it's not a lovely story and it's pretty awful to Sarah, but

1966
01:35:16.079 --> 01:35:17.220
it's just so interesting.

1967
01:35:17.279 --> 01:35:18.600
It's got Harrison Chase.

1968
01:35:18.720 --> 01:35:20.880
Actually, I know what I would say.

1969
01:35:20.939 --> 01:35:21.840
Robots of death.

1970
01:35:21.899 --> 01:35:22.319
Yeah.

1971
01:35:22.319 --> 01:35:23.279
Watch the robot.

1972
01:35:23.340 --> 01:35:24.600
Although it's turned it up.

1973
01:35:24.600 --> 01:35:26.579
So we've seen?

1974
01:35:26.880 --> 01:35:27.119
Okay.

1975
01:35:27.180 --> 01:35:28.439
One to avoid.

1976
01:35:28.500 --> 01:35:29.699
Underworld.

1977
01:35:30.479 --> 01:35:32.279
Power of Kroll.

1978
01:35:32.640 --> 01:35:34.979
I love power of crawl.

1979
01:35:35.039 --> 01:35:35.699
I do too.

1980
01:35:35.760 --> 01:35:37.380
Armageddon factor.

1981
01:35:37.439 --> 01:35:40.140
Yeah, except for the Mary 10 bits, yes.

1982
01:35:40.199 --> 01:35:42.180
Yeah, I've got to say I agree with you.

1983
01:35:42.239 --> 01:35:45.600
I'd like to throw something else in, but crunch it, Armageddon.

1984
01:35:45.659 --> 01:35:50.460
Okay, so it's Tom Baker, and it's a movie.

1985
01:35:51.119 --> 01:35:53.279
And you've got to pick something.

1986
01:35:53.340 --> 01:35:55.680
I can't say Doctor Who meets Scratch Man.

1987
01:35:55.800 --> 01:35:56.579
No, you can't.

1988
01:35:56.640 --> 01:35:58.319
No, I want to.

1989
01:35:58.319 --> 01:35:59.340
Cricket man.

1990
01:35:59.399 --> 01:36:00.720
Well, James Goss is, so why not?

1991
01:36:00.779 --> 01:36:07.079
Okay, Doctor Who, Tom Baker, movie...

1992
01:36:07.079 --> 01:36:09.359
I would say the invasion of time is a movie.

1993
01:36:09.779 --> 01:36:14.520
Again, it's another very word-perily script that would benefit

1994
01:36:14.520 --> 01:36:16.680
from actually being able to see some of the things that were

1995
01:36:16.680 --> 01:36:16.920
happening.

1996
01:36:17.039 --> 01:36:17.579
Yeah.

1997
01:36:17.640 --> 01:36:20.340
And, you know, somehow actually foreshadowing the Santarans have

1998
01:36:20.340 --> 01:36:23.699
turned up rather than just getting to write episode 5 at 5 AM on

1999
01:36:23.699 --> 01:36:27.420
Saturday morning and going, and then there's some Santarans game.

2000
01:36:27.600 --> 01:36:28.979
Wow.

2001
01:36:29.039 --> 01:36:31.439
Look, I was going to say arc in space.

2002
01:36:31.560 --> 01:36:33.359
That's what I'm going to say too.

2003
01:36:33.420 --> 01:36:36.840
But my other one is Doctor Who and the key to time.

2004
01:36:39.060 --> 01:36:41.640
That would actually really, really work.

2005
01:36:41.699 --> 01:36:43.260
My movie is City of Death.

2006
01:36:43.619 --> 01:36:49.260
And my avoid would actually have to be Brain of Morbius because

2007
01:36:49.260 --> 01:36:51.119
it's actually just a say word story.

2008
01:36:51.180 --> 01:36:55.020
Oh, the deadly necessity, if I'm really happy, but underworld.

2009
01:36:55.079 --> 01:36:58.619
No one said Megloss, which is totally alien.

2010
01:36:58.619 --> 01:36:59.520
Alien.

2011
01:36:59.579 --> 01:37:02.220
It basically is remade as a movie.

2012
01:37:02.279 --> 01:37:07.859
All right, now it's time for the John Wheevee's dilavatory or the

2013
01:37:07.859 --> 01:37:10.439
John Pertwee era of the show.

2014
01:37:39.239 --> 01:37:41.460
So...

2015
01:37:41.460 --> 01:37:43.739
Maybe I'll start.

2016
01:37:43.800 --> 01:37:47.640
I actually rediscovered him after the vitriol in the 90s where his

2017
01:37:47.640 --> 01:37:49.199
whole era was just taken apart.

2018
01:37:49.260 --> 01:37:53.039
And you can't watch it the same as I think from Tom Onwards.

2019
01:37:53.100 --> 01:37:57.000
To me, these are discoveries that I've made, that his 6 partners

2020
01:37:57.000 --> 01:37:58.079
you cannot watch in one hit.

2021
01:37:58.140 --> 01:37:59.699
You have to watch a couple.

2022
01:37:59.760 --> 01:38:02.640
You have to watch like 2 episodes and that's it.

2023
01:38:02.760 --> 01:38:05.159
Because it wasn't made for DVD.

2024
01:38:05.279 --> 01:38:07.859
I bid Planet of the Tediums.

2025
01:38:08.039 --> 01:38:12.840
And even, I think the 1st 3 years, generally, it's like it is

2026
01:38:12.840 --> 01:38:15.180
different from the last two.

2027
01:38:15.239 --> 01:38:18.600
I think it, television begins to change.

2028
01:38:18.659 --> 01:38:20.760
I think it begins to get a bit more pacier.

2029
01:38:20.819 --> 01:38:25.380
I think there are 3 John Pertweis in the era, much like there are

2030
01:38:25.380 --> 01:38:26.640
3 Peter Capaldis.

2031
01:38:26.699 --> 01:38:30.180
Like there is his 1st season and a few stories and then Colleen

2032
01:38:30.180 --> 01:38:32.640
Space sort of changes to the end of Time Monster, and then there's

2033
01:38:32.640 --> 01:38:36.840
the last two, where he's much more cuddly and fluffier again, and

2034
01:38:36.840 --> 01:38:40.380
the last season has the best opening credits in original series.

2035
01:38:40.380 --> 01:38:40.619
Who?

2036
01:38:40.680 --> 01:38:40.979
Yes.

2037
01:38:40.979 --> 01:38:43.859
That's what I've got out of this era.

2038
01:38:43.920 --> 01:38:45.359
I have to agree with you.

2039
01:38:45.420 --> 01:38:49.439
I think that the character does actually evolve and change over

2040
01:38:49.439 --> 01:38:49.800
time.

2041
01:38:49.800 --> 01:38:54.539
And I know that sometimes we say uncharitably it's because John

2042
01:38:54.539 --> 01:38:59.399
retires from acting, but frankly, seeing him in interviews as

2043
01:38:59.399 --> 01:39:00.239
himself.

2044
01:39:00.600 --> 01:39:05.640
His later doctor is still a very restrained performance compared

2045
01:39:05.640 --> 01:39:07.140
to John Pertwe, the man.

2046
01:39:07.560 --> 01:39:13.020
And I do think that he gives consideration to the fact that, okay

2047
01:39:13.020 --> 01:39:16.319
if the doctor's been on earth for a few years, eventually he will

2048
01:39:16.319 --> 01:39:19.739
soften to the people around him and soften to his fate.

2049
01:39:19.800 --> 01:39:23.039
And, you know, if you think about it in a realistic term, which I

2050
01:39:23.039 --> 01:39:25.319
don't think anyone on the show was seriously doing, you know.

2051
01:39:25.380 --> 01:39:27.960
But when you have been wandering time and space and you're

2052
01:39:27.960 --> 01:39:30.899
suddenly exiled to one planet, it is a shock and you will be just

2053
01:39:30.899 --> 01:39:34.319
annoyed with everyone around you. find it tiresome, right?

2054
01:39:34.739 --> 01:39:36.659
Very tiresome.

2055
01:39:36.720 --> 01:39:40.260
You know, right from his 1st story where he tries to escape in the

2056
01:39:40.260 --> 01:39:43.920
TARDIS and when the brigadier catches him, he just sits down

2057
01:39:43.920 --> 01:39:46.859
dejectedly on a stool and says, I couldn't stand the thought of

2058
01:39:46.859 --> 01:39:48.300
being in one planet at one time.

2059
01:39:48.359 --> 01:39:51.060
Naughty new to public schoolboy, Russell.

2060
01:39:51.119 --> 01:39:55.979
It shows you like later on, even down into the Green Death, where

2061
01:39:55.979 --> 01:39:59.579
the brigadier saying, but there's a green corpse and the doctor's

2062
01:39:59.579 --> 01:40:00.779
just saying, no, no, no.

2063
01:40:00.840 --> 01:40:03.119
It shows you how much of that is a game between them.

2064
01:40:03.239 --> 01:40:09.300
When the real 3rd doctor is actually this figure who is really sad

2065
01:40:09.479 --> 01:40:13.800
that he can't travel anymore, but also is the figure that when his

2066
01:40:13.800 --> 01:40:16.859
best friend is upset, he'll tell a very personal story from his

2067
01:40:16.859 --> 01:40:17.520
childhood.

2068
01:40:17.579 --> 01:40:18.659
Or about him a bit.

2069
01:40:18.720 --> 01:40:20.340
Tabi having a lovely lunch.

2070
01:40:20.579 --> 01:40:24.239
You see, I've never understood why that moment with Sir Tubby.

2071
01:40:24.300 --> 01:40:27.060
I never understood why people point to that and say, oh, see, he

2072
01:40:27.060 --> 01:40:27.840
is establishment.

2073
01:40:27.899 --> 01:40:30.119
It's like, no, he's lying through his bloody teeth.

2074
01:40:30.180 --> 01:40:34.500
Well, that's what I've always seen that scene as because...

2075
01:40:34.500 --> 01:40:37.439
I think it's a bit of column A in column B. I don't think

2076
01:40:37.439 --> 01:40:38.579
Persewe's playing it like that.

2077
01:40:38.640 --> 01:40:39.539
Oh okay.

2078
01:40:39.600 --> 01:40:42.720
That's that's kind of what I always get, because when he says

2079
01:40:42.720 --> 01:40:45.840
rotten sort of lot digging into your department tubby.

2080
01:40:45.899 --> 01:40:48.479
He's just kind of giving him this glance like, is he buying this?

2081
01:40:48.539 --> 01:40:52.199
No, I think that's written to be a lie, but not played.

2082
01:40:52.260 --> 01:40:53.640
Oh, okay.

2083
01:40:53.699 --> 01:40:56.279
Although again, the great dissembler, the doctor has been called

2084
01:40:56.279 --> 01:40:56.760
many things.

2085
01:40:56.819 --> 01:40:57.840
Yes, that's true.

2086
01:40:57.899 --> 01:40:58.560
That's true.

2087
01:40:58.619 --> 01:40:59.159
Who's to say?

2088
01:40:59.220 --> 01:41:04.500
Nathan, what I discovered was that I like season 7 much less than

2089
01:41:04.500 --> 01:41:05.159
I thought I would.

2090
01:41:05.220 --> 01:41:05.939
Stop it.

2091
01:41:06.000 --> 01:41:09.960
Yep, and I thought it was the grown up proper one, but I think the

2092
01:41:09.960 --> 01:41:13.800
stories are too long, and I think they're all too similar, and I

2093
01:41:13.800 --> 01:41:18.300
think that each story is worse than the last, and I wouldn't have

2094
01:41:18.300 --> 01:41:18.960
said that before.

2095
01:41:19.020 --> 01:41:21.600
I had watched it for the podcast.

2096
01:41:21.659 --> 01:41:27.119
I think that season 11, on the other hand, maybe Monster of

2097
01:41:27.119 --> 01:41:31.079
Paladine accepted, is much better than I thought it was.

2098
01:41:31.140 --> 01:41:36.539
And the reason that I like this era is that it has a large regular

2099
01:41:36.539 --> 01:41:37.380
cast.

2100
01:41:37.380 --> 01:41:44.819
And I think that Doctor Who as a show has a problem in that, uh

2101
01:41:44.819 --> 01:41:48.600
it's sort of a weird anthology show in a sense, uh, where we're in

2102
01:41:48.600 --> 01:41:51.659
a different place, each story, and we don't get to know anyone.

2103
01:41:51.659 --> 01:41:55.020
And I think that there's something terribly sweet and comforting

2104
01:41:55.020 --> 01:41:57.180
about the doctor having a bunch of friends.

2105
01:41:57.239 --> 01:42:01.979
It's one of the reasons that the Chibnall casting announcement

2106
01:42:01.979 --> 01:42:07.680
that was made this week, as we record, makes me a bit vomit.

2107
01:42:07.739 --> 01:42:12.060
Oh, makes me want to...

2108
01:42:12.119 --> 01:42:13.079
No, no, no.

2109
01:42:13.140 --> 01:42:15.960
It excites me because I think Doctor Who works with a regular cast

2110
01:42:15.960 --> 01:42:17.460
that's bigger than 2 people.

2111
01:42:17.520 --> 01:42:21.060
One of the things I dislike about the Colin Baker era is that

2112
01:42:21.060 --> 01:42:23.039
Colin Baker's doctor has no friends.

2113
01:42:23.100 --> 01:42:25.859
He just knows.

2114
01:42:25.859 --> 01:42:27.060
Colin Baker's doctor.

2115
01:42:27.119 --> 01:42:29.340
No, no, I get it, but it's a good quote.

2116
01:42:29.399 --> 01:42:34.260
You know, whereas it's such a modern internet thing to say too

2117
01:42:34.260 --> 01:42:34.619
isn't it?

2118
01:42:34.739 --> 01:42:36.300
no friends.

2119
01:42:36.359 --> 01:42:40.500
But I like it between friends on Facebook and most of them are... one

2120
01:42:40.500 --> 01:42:44.520
of my that's one of my heroes in this era is that you've got the

2121
01:42:44.520 --> 01:42:45.300
brigadier.

2122
01:42:45.359 --> 01:42:54.659
Benton Yates. and then whether it be Joe or Sarah or Liz, you've

2123
01:42:54.659 --> 01:42:58.859
got that cast and you've also got Terrence Dix and Barry Letts.

2124
01:42:58.920 --> 01:43:03.479
Like, they are, that collective group aren't my heroes of this

2125
01:43:03.479 --> 01:43:03.899
era.

2126
01:43:03.960 --> 01:43:07.739
I mean, the longest period of time that we'd had to date with the

2127
01:43:07.739 --> 01:43:09.300
same creative team.

2128
01:43:09.300 --> 01:43:14.159
It's really, yeah, it's the greatest period of stability in the

2129
01:43:14.159 --> 01:43:15.840
classic era. that a good thing?

2130
01:43:15.899 --> 01:43:19.140
Well, the weird thing is you would think it would stagnate.

2131
01:43:19.199 --> 01:43:22.920
Like, you know, we talked about with JNT, he wanted to move on and

2132
01:43:22.920 --> 01:43:26.520
he recognised that he should move on and he wasn't able to, and

2133
01:43:26.520 --> 01:43:27.659
that led to stagnation.

2134
01:43:27.720 --> 01:43:31.079
Whereas here, I'm going to single out one particular person from

2135
01:43:31.079 --> 01:43:36.300
that group, and that is Katie Manning, because as much as the

2136
01:43:36.300 --> 01:43:37.560
doctor's character grows.

2137
01:43:37.619 --> 01:43:42.000
I think part of it is pertly settling into the role and feeling

2138
01:43:42.000 --> 01:43:42.479
comfortable.

2139
01:43:42.539 --> 01:43:46.680
I think it's still a conscious acting choice, but the actor whose

2140
01:43:46.680 --> 01:43:51.720
performance changes and character grows over their time, is Katie

2141
01:43:51.720 --> 01:43:53.159
Manning as Joe Grant.

2142
01:43:53.220 --> 01:43:57.060
You know, she comes in as this ingenue, who doesn't really know

2143
01:43:57.060 --> 01:43:58.319
what her role is.

2144
01:43:58.380 --> 01:44:01.380
You know, she's just been put there in a case of nepotism.

2145
01:44:01.680 --> 01:44:07.739
And wants to prove herself not only to the doctor, but also to

2146
01:44:07.739 --> 01:44:08.100
herself.

2147
01:44:08.159 --> 01:44:09.600
And as story...

2148
01:44:09.600 --> 01:44:11.220
This group editor and to the director.

2149
01:44:11.279 --> 01:44:14.279
Well, you know, I mean, she is the casual viewer, but she's also

2150
01:44:14.279 --> 01:44:16.439
Dixon Lett's idea of what girls should be.

2151
01:44:16.500 --> 01:44:17.100
Yeah.

2152
01:44:17.100 --> 01:44:20.699
So I always had an issue with the casting of that or the concept

2153
01:44:20.699 --> 01:44:21.899
of the role after Liz Shaw.

2154
01:44:21.960 --> 01:44:24.239
She's my hero of the entire era.

2155
01:44:24.899 --> 01:44:29.460
And she comes in and is immediately super competent.

2156
01:44:29.520 --> 01:44:31.380
Yeah, you know, yeah.

2157
01:44:31.920 --> 01:44:33.239
Yeah, yeah, that 1st story.

2158
01:44:33.300 --> 01:44:38.699
She investigates all the plastic factories, she orders parts for

2159
01:44:38.699 --> 01:44:39.180
the doctor.

2160
01:44:39.239 --> 01:44:42.359
She is charming and on top of things.

2161
01:44:42.420 --> 01:44:44.640
She is completely unflappable.

2162
01:44:44.699 --> 01:44:50.159
She is really, really very different from the way that Dix

2163
01:44:50.159 --> 01:44:54.180
characterises her role and she humanises the doctor.

2164
01:44:54.479 --> 01:44:56.819
Okay, so we're talking about 2 things here.

2165
01:44:56.880 --> 01:44:59.640
We're talking about Katie's performance. but also the way she's

2166
01:44:59.640 --> 01:44:59.880
written.

2167
01:44:59.939 --> 01:45:01.739
I don't think she's written as an idiot at all.

2168
01:45:01.800 --> 01:45:04.739
But I am going to disagree with you something there.

2169
01:45:04.800 --> 01:45:07.680
I think part of the appeal for her character in the early stories

2170
01:45:07.680 --> 01:45:11.579
is her incompetence because, okay, yeah, she goes off

2171
01:45:11.579 --> 01:45:14.699
investigating, knocks over a crate and tries to blow everyone up

2172
01:45:14.699 --> 01:45:15.659
as a result, you know?

2173
01:45:15.720 --> 01:45:19.380
But she knocks over a crate and stands up and sort of goes, oops

2174
01:45:19.380 --> 01:45:25.260
she's incompetent, but confident, which I think is important and

2175
01:45:25.260 --> 01:45:28.380
confident in sort of saying, oh, yeah, I screwed that up.

2176
01:45:28.439 --> 01:45:28.800
That was me.

2177
01:45:28.859 --> 01:45:31.859
Actually, I was about to say something about Star Trek discovery

2178
01:45:31.859 --> 01:45:34.439
but I'm not going to because 2 of us here haven't seen it, but

2179
01:45:34.439 --> 01:45:35.760
Nathan knows what I was going to say.

2180
01:45:35.819 --> 01:45:36.899
Yes.

2181
01:45:36.960 --> 01:45:39.479
And dear listeners, I think you know what I'm going to say as

2182
01:45:39.479 --> 01:45:39.720
well.

2183
01:45:39.779 --> 01:45:46.800
But as the show goes on, she becomes more competent and we get

2184
01:45:46.800 --> 01:45:48.119
repeated scenes.

2185
01:45:48.180 --> 01:45:49.979
So in terror of the autons.

2186
01:45:50.100 --> 01:45:52.380
She rescues the doctor by breaking a vase over someone's head.

2187
01:45:52.439 --> 01:45:55.500
In the sea devils, she rescues the doctor without attacking

2188
01:45:55.500 --> 01:45:55.739
anyone.

2189
01:45:55.800 --> 01:45:58.979
Yeah, I think she clobbers one guard, but after that, it's like

2190
01:45:58.979 --> 01:46:00.420
getting, get out, get the key.

2191
01:46:00.539 --> 01:46:05.699
In cause of axis, she has a go at chin and, you know, chin's an

2192
01:46:05.699 --> 01:46:06.000
enemy.

2193
01:46:06.060 --> 01:46:08.699
So you expect the characters to have a go at the enemy, but it

2194
01:46:08.699 --> 01:46:13.079
takes real strength then in the Green Death to turn around and say

2195
01:46:13.079 --> 01:46:14.159
no to the brigadier.

2196
01:46:14.159 --> 01:46:16.199
There are some great moments in that story.

2197
01:46:16.260 --> 01:46:19.319
Yeah, I agree with everything you're saying, Brendan.

2198
01:46:19.380 --> 01:46:22.560
And as an arc, it defines the pertle era.

2199
01:46:22.619 --> 01:46:25.020
I just feel that the character was brought in too soon and I

2200
01:46:25.020 --> 01:46:28.739
regretted the loss of so much of season 7's establishment.

2201
01:46:28.800 --> 01:46:33.000
Well, you know, Caroline John was so fantastic and such a

2202
01:46:33.000 --> 01:46:34.439
great...

2203
01:46:34.500 --> 01:46:37.560
Whereas Katie is a 60s girl in the 70s.

2204
01:46:37.619 --> 01:46:41.340
And she's also, there's the disingenuousness and the vulnerability

2205
01:46:41.340 --> 01:46:45.239
but there's that whole sexual thing of being exactly what the dads

2206
01:46:45.239 --> 01:46:47.640
want and it really still bothers me.

2207
01:46:47.699 --> 01:46:52.319
But she has to dumb down underplay and be incompetent because a

2208
01:46:52.319 --> 01:46:54.359
competent woman, even though it's the 70s.

2209
01:46:54.359 --> 01:46:57.720
And we have Margaret Mead, Margaret Burkewiter, actually figures

2210
01:46:57.720 --> 01:47:01.380
from the 50s, but we have Steinham, we have Greer, we have all the

2211
01:47:01.380 --> 01:47:02.279
women, great women.

2212
01:47:02.340 --> 01:47:04.380
We've already talked about in a 100 other ones.

2213
01:47:04.439 --> 01:47:07.979
And then we've also having to please men in this production

2214
01:47:07.979 --> 01:47:11.340
company who have said we wanted a little girl that we actually

2215
01:47:11.340 --> 01:47:13.619
felt like, you know, being with.

2216
01:47:13.680 --> 01:47:17.399
And we know what they meant when they said that...

2217
01:47:17.460 --> 01:47:18.420
It's all of them.

2218
01:47:18.479 --> 01:47:20.159
But she has such charm.

2219
01:47:20.220 --> 01:47:21.239
She does.

2220
01:47:21.300 --> 01:47:22.079
She's so good.

2221
01:47:22.140 --> 01:47:26.039
And I think it's because Katie goes in and whether it's

2222
01:47:26.039 --> 01:47:28.380
consciously or unconsciously kind of looks at the character and

2223
01:47:28.380 --> 01:47:32.340
goes, oh, okay, so you want me to be this, this, this thing that

2224
01:47:32.340 --> 01:47:34.140
just stands over there and screams, no, thank you.

2225
01:47:34.199 --> 01:47:37.079
I'm going to sacrifice myself to the god to save the earth, and

2226
01:47:37.079 --> 01:47:40.260
then I'm going to climb out on this citadel in my high heels, and

2227
01:47:40.260 --> 01:47:42.000
then just to finish off.

2228
01:47:42.060 --> 01:47:45.239
I'm going to tell Omega where he can shove his gel guards.

2229
01:47:45.300 --> 01:47:49.319
Brendan's done all of that Not just into privacy of his own

2230
01:47:49.319 --> 01:47:49.680
podcast.

2231
01:47:49.800 --> 01:47:51.060
I agree.

2232
01:47:51.060 --> 01:47:52.800
In heels and backwards.

2233
01:47:53.039 --> 01:47:54.659
Un green.

2234
01:47:54.720 --> 01:47:56.340
Like, she is an unsung hero.

2235
01:47:56.399 --> 01:47:59.520
I also think that Liz Shaw is also in her own way.

2236
01:47:59.579 --> 01:48:03.300
Yes, I would argue that Katie is actually the ambassadress for

2237
01:48:03.300 --> 01:48:05.220
their 1st part of the 70s now.

2238
01:48:05.279 --> 01:48:07.739
She is, I don't know that she's on sign.

2239
01:48:07.800 --> 01:48:10.319
And now that she's gone back to the UK, fandom have been wanting

2240
01:48:10.319 --> 01:48:13.500
her back there for years, and she is very much celebrated.

2241
01:48:13.560 --> 01:48:17.340
Now, also in the audios with Tim Trelaw on Big Finish.

2242
01:48:17.399 --> 01:48:18.899
She is the absolute linchpin.

2243
01:48:18.960 --> 01:48:22.079
And my recommendation for this area, if we were doing those, we'd

2244
01:48:22.079 --> 01:48:25.560
go and listen to those new 3rd doctor adventures with Katie and

2245
01:48:25.560 --> 01:48:26.699
Tim Trolloy.

2246
01:48:26.760 --> 01:48:27.600
They're just gorgeous.

2247
01:48:27.659 --> 01:48:31.680
And it's exactly who Joe, you're all saying you felt to be, well

2248
01:48:31.680 --> 01:48:33.180
now she actually is in these stories.

2249
01:48:33.300 --> 01:48:37.619
I honestly think too, riding around when she was written out, it

2250
01:48:37.619 --> 01:48:41.279
was the right time. like she going to marry or whatever happened.

2251
01:48:41.340 --> 01:48:42.720
Like, it was the right decision.

2252
01:48:42.720 --> 01:48:45.720
And then everybody moving on at the right time.

2253
01:48:45.779 --> 01:48:49.079
In the past, I thought, oh, people outstayed there welcome and

2254
01:48:49.079 --> 01:48:51.000
maybe John did too long, but I don't think so.

2255
01:48:51.060 --> 01:48:51.720
Did he?

2256
01:48:51.720 --> 01:48:52.859
I don't think so anymore.

2257
01:48:52.920 --> 01:48:57.239
I think, I think it's, it is a good amount of time for all of

2258
01:48:57.239 --> 01:48:57.420
them.

2259
01:48:57.479 --> 01:48:59.100
And in that last season, please, yes.

2260
01:48:59.159 --> 01:49:02.100
They do have a new character in Sarah Jane Smith, and I really

2261
01:49:02.100 --> 01:49:03.060
like Liz in that season.

2262
01:49:03.119 --> 01:49:07.020
It's completely different, Prashawn or whatever you want to say

2263
01:49:07.020 --> 01:49:07.319
it.

2264
01:49:07.380 --> 01:49:08.340
She's sterner, isn't she?

2265
01:49:08.399 --> 01:49:09.000
Yeah, yeah.

2266
01:49:09.000 --> 01:49:13.500
But I love the character in there and it gives an oomph to that

2267
01:49:13.500 --> 01:49:15.420
final push before they all move on.

2268
01:49:15.479 --> 01:49:18.060
Would you have liked him to stay another year, Todd?

2269
01:49:18.180 --> 01:49:19.859
No, I don't think you should have. don't think so?

2270
01:49:19.920 --> 01:49:20.399
I agree.

2271
01:49:20.460 --> 01:49:23.760
My gut feeling, sorry, just before we move on. is that, and it's

2272
01:49:23.760 --> 01:49:27.779
my real problem with this new era of Doctor Who, I'm just washing

2273
01:49:27.899 --> 01:49:30.779
changing the whites too often is too many doctors.

2274
01:49:30.840 --> 01:49:32.399
I'm sick of this.

2275
01:49:32.460 --> 01:49:33.060
I want...

2276
01:49:33.119 --> 01:49:35.039
I just, please just stay around, one of you.

2277
01:49:37.199 --> 01:49:39.060
Maybe fatigue.

2278
01:49:39.119 --> 01:49:40.560
Maybe with less episodes?

2279
01:49:40.619 --> 01:49:42.899
Maybe, maybe, maybe.

2280
01:49:42.960 --> 01:49:47.100
But the 3 season doctor thing worked in the 60s when you've got a

2281
01:49:47.100 --> 01:49:47.760
lot of stories.

2282
01:49:47.819 --> 01:49:48.600
Yes.

2283
01:49:48.600 --> 01:49:52.260
And the 60s was moving at a different pace for viewers anyway.

2284
01:49:52.319 --> 01:49:54.600
Okay, we've talked about a lot of stuff that we like.

2285
01:49:54.659 --> 01:49:59.279
Is there any villain in this era?

2286
01:49:59.340 --> 01:50:01.140
I've joined...

2287
01:50:02.220 --> 01:50:05.279
Mine would be Barry Letts' CSO.

2288
01:50:05.699 --> 01:50:09.960
But he's pushing the envelope with everything, which is great, and

2289
01:50:09.960 --> 01:50:12.779
you wouldn't have what we have now if people like him didn't do

2290
01:50:12.779 --> 01:50:12.960
that.

2291
01:50:13.020 --> 01:50:14.159
But I don't know.

2292
01:50:14.279 --> 01:50:16.380
I think there's some ropey riding.

2293
01:50:16.439 --> 01:50:20.220
Uh, and I think uh, the season finales tend to be poorly written

2294
01:50:20.220 --> 01:50:23.579
and I think Bob Baker and Dave Martin's stories tend to be poorly

2295
01:50:23.579 --> 01:50:23.880
written.

2296
01:50:24.000 --> 01:50:28.619
But there's just a sort of charm, and there's nothing that really

2297
01:50:28.619 --> 01:50:29.880
craters horribly.

2298
01:50:29.939 --> 01:50:33.720
Like maybe the worst story is the time monster.

2299
01:50:33.779 --> 01:50:36.720
Not funny, you should say, but...

2300
01:50:36.779 --> 01:50:40.500
But the Time Monster is not universally loved, but God, it's fun.

2301
01:50:40.979 --> 01:50:43.199
The Time Monster is my fault.

2302
01:50:43.260 --> 01:50:47.399
I was going to say, is my favourite comedy in almost after City of

2303
01:50:47.399 --> 01:50:48.300
Death in Doctor Who.

2304
01:50:48.359 --> 01:50:50.939
It's the only one after City of Death that I laugh all the way

2305
01:50:50.939 --> 01:50:51.119
through.

2306
01:50:51.180 --> 01:50:54.000
There are some great moments It's very, very funny and

2307
01:50:54.000 --> 01:50:54.659
mischarged.

2308
01:50:54.720 --> 01:50:57.960
My thing, just because, you know, I would say if, well, it's in my

2309
01:50:57.960 --> 01:51:00.840
head, the monster of this period is simply what we were saying

2310
01:51:00.840 --> 01:51:05.100
before, production demands and the way that the show was now being

2311
01:51:05.100 --> 01:51:05.640
produced.

2312
01:51:05.699 --> 01:51:08.220
And we, you've already said it, stories don't need to be 6 or 7

2313
01:51:08.220 --> 01:51:08.760
episodes.

2314
01:51:08.819 --> 01:51:13.079
I would have liked, put that money in just, but let's just have a

2315
01:51:13.079 --> 01:51:14.699
10 episode season.

2316
01:51:14.760 --> 01:51:16.680
We don't need this many.

2317
01:51:16.739 --> 01:51:17.819
We've got 4 stories.

2318
01:51:17.880 --> 01:51:20.340
Let's just make 12 episodes.

2319
01:51:20.399 --> 01:51:21.239
That would have been fine.

2320
01:51:21.300 --> 01:51:23.939
And how interesting they would have been cut down.

2321
01:51:24.000 --> 01:51:25.920
We would have had real value, real quality.

2322
01:51:26.279 --> 01:51:30.659
Do you really have to fill the screen, spend the same amount of

2323
01:51:30.659 --> 01:51:31.920
money and just show reruns.

2324
01:51:31.979 --> 01:51:32.579
I would have been fine.

2325
01:51:32.760 --> 01:51:34.800
Roger Delgado.

2326
01:51:34.859 --> 01:51:35.939
Yes.

2327
01:51:36.000 --> 01:51:39.060
We can't ignore him.

2328
01:51:39.119 --> 01:51:40.920
I think his contribution is immense.

2329
01:51:40.979 --> 01:51:41.819
I really like him.

2330
01:51:42.000 --> 01:51:50.159
The fact that in his 1st season, he is in every story, and and yet

2331
01:51:50.159 --> 01:51:54.239
by the end of the Damon's, you still find him charming and

2332
01:51:54.239 --> 01:51:58.079
compelling to watch, looking at it as an adult, it's like, yeah

2333
01:51:58.079 --> 01:52:00.960
this is master fever, but God, it's not Roger's fault. happy to

2334
01:52:00.960 --> 01:52:01.800
watch Roger every week.

2335
01:52:01.859 --> 01:52:06.720
And, you know, it's it's something that was very successfully

2336
01:52:06.720 --> 01:52:10.199
emulated by Stephen Moffat in this year's season of Doctor Who

2337
01:52:10.199 --> 01:52:13.020
with Missy, not in every single episode.

2338
01:52:13.079 --> 01:52:17.340
And again, not just as, oh, I'm in a scene in this episode

2339
01:52:17.340 --> 01:52:21.420
actually playing a role in several plots throughout the season

2340
01:52:21.420 --> 01:52:24.659
either through giving advice or through taking action.

2341
01:52:24.899 --> 01:52:30.600
And there's a reason that I think that she is the finest actor to

2342
01:52:30.600 --> 01:52:36.000
play the role since Delgado in that both she and Delgado get the

2343
01:52:36.000 --> 01:52:38.460
thing about them having been friends.

2344
01:52:38.460 --> 01:52:40.560
And that very clearly comes across.

2345
01:52:40.560 --> 01:52:44.640
And it's amazing when you consider that John did feel a bit

2346
01:52:44.640 --> 01:52:47.699
threatened by having such a good actor working opposite him.

2347
01:52:47.760 --> 01:52:52.140
But that was solved by the fact that Roger Delgado was very happy

2348
01:52:52.199 --> 01:52:53.640
fact, Michelle Gomez all the time.

2349
01:52:53.819 --> 01:52:55.500
It did hurt.

2350
01:52:55.560 --> 01:52:58.079
I've pulled off my Michelle Gomez mask now.

2351
01:52:58.140 --> 01:53:00.180
But boy, she is good.

2352
01:53:00.239 --> 01:53:00.960
She is good.

2353
01:53:01.020 --> 01:53:03.899
I'd never thought of that before, but you're right.

2354
01:53:03.960 --> 01:53:05.640
They do play the same way.

2355
01:53:05.699 --> 01:53:06.539
Yeah.

2356
01:53:06.539 --> 01:53:07.859
And they...

2357
01:53:07.920 --> 01:53:10.319
There was a wonderful like digital...

2358
01:53:10.380 --> 01:53:11.159
Sounds rude, isn't?

2359
01:53:11.279 --> 01:53:15.659
There was a wonderful digital trailer a few weeks before season 9

2360
01:53:15.659 --> 01:53:19.380
which announced Michelle Gomez was going to be back in Magician's

2361
01:53:19.380 --> 01:53:23.100
Apprentice, and she's reading a book on set called How to Be

2362
01:53:23.100 --> 01:53:23.520
Evil.

2363
01:53:23.520 --> 01:53:25.739
Oh, you've caught me at it.

2364
01:53:25.800 --> 01:53:29.460
And as she closes the book, Roger Delgado's picture is on the back

2365
01:53:29.460 --> 01:53:29.760
of it.

2366
01:53:29.819 --> 01:53:32.699
No, it's rather fabulous.

2367
01:53:32.760 --> 01:53:37.859
But, you know, with Nathan's got the full set.

2368
01:53:37.859 --> 01:53:40.979
With Anthony Ainley's performance, and I'm not going to criticise

2369
01:53:40.979 --> 01:53:44.220
Eric Roberts on this because it's hard to judge, but even with

2370
01:53:44.220 --> 01:53:48.420
John Sims performance, you never really get the strong impression

2371
01:53:48.420 --> 01:53:51.899
that these 2 used to be friends with John Sim, you know, you get

2372
01:53:51.899 --> 01:53:55.380
the bit where he's dying and David Tennant's cradling him, but

2373
01:53:55.380 --> 01:53:56.939
it's like, oh, I wanted the buildup to that.

2374
01:53:57.000 --> 01:54:01.680
And straight away in terror of the autons, when the master's

2375
01:54:01.680 --> 01:54:04.619
holding a gun on the doctor in his lab, you do get the impression

2376
01:54:04.619 --> 01:54:06.840
that these 2 have a long history.

2377
01:54:06.899 --> 01:54:10.199
And I don't know if John and Roger had known each other

2378
01:54:10.199 --> 01:54:10.920
beforehand.

2379
01:54:10.979 --> 01:54:12.180
I know they knew of each other.

2380
01:54:12.239 --> 01:54:14.520
They were intrigued to be working together, but I don't know if

2381
01:54:14.520 --> 01:54:15.239
they ever...

2382
01:54:15.239 --> 01:54:19.319
I think New Grade had kept them in the same stable ITC, you know

2383
01:54:19.319 --> 01:54:21.180
mucking them out, occasionally.

2384
01:54:21.239 --> 01:54:26.939
But yeah, and God, Roger's loss, obviously it is an incredible

2385
01:54:26.939 --> 01:54:28.079
loss to all the cast.

2386
01:54:28.140 --> 01:54:33.119
There was a fan consensus that the reason that John season last

2387
01:54:33.119 --> 01:54:36.359
season wasn't good was because he was missing Katie Manning, and I

2388
01:54:36.359 --> 01:54:38.579
do agree that John is more subdued in that last season.

2389
01:54:38.640 --> 01:54:41.579
I don't think it's because of Katie's departure.

2390
01:54:41.640 --> 01:54:43.619
I think it's because of Roger's death.

2391
01:54:43.680 --> 01:54:45.899
And also halfway through the season.

2392
01:54:45.960 --> 01:54:49.680
He decides not to go on anymore, which, yes, is partially due to

2393
01:54:49.680 --> 01:54:52.859
the fact that Nick and the unit boys were being phased out.

2394
01:54:52.920 --> 01:54:54.359
Roger was gone, Katie was gone.

2395
01:54:54.420 --> 01:54:56.100
He was still enjoying working with Liz.

2396
01:54:56.100 --> 01:55:02.159
It's the thing of he's doing a job he enjoys, but at the same time

2397
01:55:02.159 --> 01:55:05.279
a lot of the fun has gone out of it because the people he was

2398
01:55:05.279 --> 01:55:06.300
having fun with have gone.

2399
01:55:06.420 --> 01:55:08.699
So he asked for a rise and when he didn't get it, he just said, oh

2400
01:55:08.699 --> 01:55:08.880
okay.

2401
01:55:08.939 --> 01:55:11.760
I think we can see it the same way that Patrick McNee used to say

2402
01:55:11.760 --> 01:55:13.859
I'll ask for a ridiculous amount of money, and if they give it to

2403
01:55:13.859 --> 01:55:16.500
me, oh, well, I'll stay, but I think everyone had really agreed it

2404
01:55:16.500 --> 01:55:18.539
was time for changes across the board.

2405
01:55:18.960 --> 01:55:22.800
Yeah Before I ask my final 3 questions about the zero.

2406
01:55:22.859 --> 01:55:25.439
I also think Nick Courtney, the majority of his stories are

2407
01:55:25.439 --> 01:55:28.020
obviously in this era, and he is an unsung hero in so many of

2408
01:55:28.020 --> 01:55:31.140
those in his delivery and performance when the brigadier is

2409
01:55:31.140 --> 01:55:34.739
written all over the place, and, you know, yeah.

2410
01:55:34.800 --> 01:55:37.979
I just wanted to say that we need to say something.

2411
01:55:37.979 --> 01:55:39.180
He needs to be mentioned.

2412
01:55:39.239 --> 01:55:39.659
He really does.

2413
01:55:39.720 --> 01:55:41.039
The brigadier.

2414
01:55:41.100 --> 01:55:45.180
I'm going to go over to another show which At this time had not

2415
01:55:45.180 --> 01:55:46.979
yet been created, but Red Dwarf.

2416
01:55:47.039 --> 01:55:51.720
Red Dwarf, the reason Holly was written out after series 5 is

2417
01:55:51.720 --> 01:55:54.300
Crichton had taken over the role of exposition.

2418
01:55:54.359 --> 01:55:58.199
The brigadier's role at the beginning of the Pertwee era is

2419
01:55:58.199 --> 01:55:58.680
exposition.

2420
01:55:58.739 --> 01:56:02.460
He turns up and says, right, this is the mystery, doctor, you need

2421
01:56:02.460 --> 01:56:03.539
to go off and investigate it.

2422
01:56:03.600 --> 01:56:06.479
And I think the fact that the brigadier is given so much character

2423
01:56:06.479 --> 01:56:10.079
is the sheer force of Nicholas Courtney's will.

2424
01:56:10.140 --> 01:56:13.020
He's not just mother from the Avengers turning up in a strange

2425
01:56:13.020 --> 01:56:13.680
location.

2426
01:56:13.739 --> 01:56:16.859
He'll come into a scene and doctor, this is the drama.

2427
01:56:16.920 --> 01:56:19.079
But he's like I'm not bloody leaving the scene.

2428
01:56:19.140 --> 01:56:20.039
This is my show.

2429
01:56:20.100 --> 01:56:21.479
This is my lab.

2430
01:56:21.539 --> 01:56:26.760
This is my rompers and I'm wearing them all year. very true And I

2431
01:56:26.760 --> 01:56:28.859
think Nick is totally worthy of that.

2432
01:56:28.920 --> 01:56:30.000
The other 2 unit boys.

2433
01:56:30.060 --> 01:56:33.479
Look, I know they come in for criticism in various areas of

2434
01:56:33.479 --> 01:56:33.840
fandom.

2435
01:56:33.899 --> 01:56:37.140
But when I was a kid, Captain Hot Pants was...

2436
01:56:37.979 --> 01:56:38.520
Which captain?

2437
01:56:38.579 --> 01:56:39.060
There are so many.

2438
01:56:39.119 --> 01:56:41.039
You felt safe with unit.

2439
01:56:41.100 --> 01:56:43.800
You felt safe with the brigadier and Sergeant Benton and Captain

2440
01:56:43.800 --> 01:56:44.579
Yates.

2441
01:56:44.640 --> 01:56:47.039
You felt safe and you felt they would protect the doctor.

2442
01:56:47.100 --> 01:56:48.300
In that order.

2443
01:56:51.000 --> 01:56:53.640
All right, speaking of ordering things.

2444
01:56:53.699 --> 01:56:54.960
One to watch.

2445
01:56:58.020 --> 01:56:59.880
I'm going to go within Inferno.

2446
01:56:59.939 --> 01:57:02.279
I'm going to go with Spearhead from Space actually.

2447
01:57:02.340 --> 01:57:06.359
Definite thing Or Carnival of Monsters.

2448
01:57:06.479 --> 01:57:08.520
I knew you were going to say kind of all of monsters.

2449
01:57:08.579 --> 01:57:11.100
I would say my all-time favourite is a little boy simply because

2450
01:57:11.100 --> 01:57:13.800
we saw the seasons over and over again and they're still all good

2451
01:57:13.800 --> 01:57:15.119
has to be final season.

2452
01:57:15.180 --> 01:57:17.340
I like it, doctor, feeling the death knell.

2453
01:57:17.399 --> 01:57:20.699
I do like the subdued quality after all the exuberance.

2454
01:57:20.760 --> 01:57:22.680
The end of the party can sometimes be the best.

2455
01:57:22.739 --> 01:57:25.500
So for me, it's probably death to the Daleks.

2456
01:57:25.560 --> 01:57:26.159
I just really love it.

2457
01:57:26.220 --> 01:57:27.479
Nice, me too.

2458
01:57:27.539 --> 01:57:29.220
Oh my god.

2459
01:57:29.279 --> 01:57:31.739
I want to say that's how it ends because I really love it.

2460
01:57:31.800 --> 01:57:32.760
It's so good isn't it?

2461
01:57:32.939 --> 01:57:34.739
The Green Death?

2462
01:57:34.800 --> 01:57:36.479
Yeah, yep, yep.

2463
01:57:36.479 --> 01:57:37.560
There's a lot in there.

2464
01:57:37.619 --> 01:57:38.579
There's a lot in there.

2465
01:57:38.640 --> 01:57:39.960
All right, one to avoid.

2466
01:57:40.020 --> 01:57:41.039
Colony in space.

2467
01:57:41.100 --> 01:57:42.000
Once for a peladin.

2468
01:57:42.060 --> 01:57:43.020
Monster of peladin.

2469
01:57:43.079 --> 01:57:46.920
That Dalek thing that goes for 7 years. planet a planet.

2470
01:57:46.920 --> 01:57:48.119
I can say that, Tom. hated it.

2471
01:57:48.180 --> 01:57:52.199
Oh, yes, I absolutely learned that as well.

2472
01:57:52.260 --> 01:57:55.439
That will also go in the bottomless pit with the monster pellon.

2473
01:57:55.500 --> 01:57:56.880
Terry, just a quick note.

2474
01:57:56.939 --> 01:57:58.800
Terry Nation actually gets my villain award.

2475
01:57:58.859 --> 01:58:00.479
Planet of the Daleks.

2476
01:58:00.539 --> 01:58:01.619
Now, I love Planet of the Daleks.

2477
01:58:01.680 --> 01:58:04.140
I love that it's the greatest hit, but if Terry Nation, if you're

2478
01:58:04.140 --> 01:58:06.539
going to complain that they use the Daleks without your permission

2479
01:58:06.539 --> 01:58:09.600
when you get the opportunity to write a dialect script, you've got

2480
01:58:09.600 --> 01:58:12.600
a bloody match day of the Daleks, mate, not just regurgitate

2481
01:58:12.600 --> 01:58:13.800
everything. moving on.

2482
01:58:13.859 --> 01:58:15.359
Or write a news story.

2483
01:58:15.420 --> 01:58:16.680
Yes, no.

2484
01:58:16.680 --> 01:58:17.699
That's...

2485
01:58:17.699 --> 01:58:20.399
Yeah, Dylan, perfect. wonderful.

2486
01:58:20.460 --> 01:58:21.000
All right.

2487
01:58:21.060 --> 01:58:24.000
We're making a movie with John Perch week.

2488
01:58:24.060 --> 01:58:25.619
And which story is it going to be?

2489
01:58:25.680 --> 01:58:27.000
The time monster.

2490
01:58:27.060 --> 01:58:28.560
Yeah, I agree.

2491
01:58:28.619 --> 01:58:29.579
It would be hilarious.

2492
01:58:29.640 --> 01:58:30.960
Directed by Mel Brooks.

2493
01:58:31.020 --> 01:58:33.840
Well, I think, you know, if you're going to make a movie, you've

2494
01:58:33.840 --> 01:58:37.260
got to take a story that sort of fails, that's ambitious, but kind

2495
01:58:37.260 --> 01:58:40.920
of fails in some way, or that would benefit from some more money

2496
01:58:40.920 --> 01:58:43.500
or another pass at the script.

2497
01:58:43.560 --> 01:58:48.300
And like Time Monster is so terrible, but so terribly enjoyable as

2498
01:58:48.300 --> 01:58:48.539
well.

2499
01:58:48.600 --> 01:58:51.060
The other one would be invasion of the dinosaurs.

2500
01:58:51.119 --> 01:58:52.680
That was both very...

2501
01:58:52.739 --> 01:58:54.779
That was that was my nomination.

2502
01:58:54.840 --> 01:58:57.180
One of my considerations is invasion, the dinosaurs.

2503
01:58:57.239 --> 01:58:57.960
I have another.

2504
01:58:57.960 --> 01:59:02.100
It's called Frontier and Space, but it's the 12 part epic.

2505
01:59:02.159 --> 01:59:06.119
Yeah, where you actually have the earth stuff and there's

2506
01:59:06.119 --> 01:59:08.579
something there and then the Daleks appear, boom, and you've got

2507
01:59:08.579 --> 01:59:09.000
the rest of it.

2508
01:59:09.899 --> 01:59:13.020
Yeah, I was thinking the master's Dalek plan.

2509
01:59:13.079 --> 01:59:14.579
Good one.

2510
01:59:14.640 --> 01:59:14.880
Yep.

2511
01:59:14.939 --> 01:59:17.460
But I will say the mutants.

2512
01:59:17.520 --> 01:59:21.899
Because I think with a much tighter script, completely rewrite the

2513
01:59:21.899 --> 01:59:22.380
script, Todd.

2514
01:59:22.439 --> 01:59:25.560
So it's not Bob Baker and Dave Martin's words, but the central

2515
01:59:25.560 --> 01:59:29.939
idea about this race evolving it to wonderful sci-fi idea, but

2516
01:59:29.939 --> 01:59:32.760
also it is a story about racism and apartheid.

2517
01:59:32.819 --> 01:59:35.520
And yeah, I think it has...

2518
01:59:35.520 --> 01:59:36.539
It comes down against them, right?

2519
01:59:36.600 --> 01:59:37.199
Yes.

2520
01:59:37.979 --> 01:59:40.140
Stubs and cotton in it.

2521
01:59:40.439 --> 01:59:47.159
Stubbs and Cotton are in it, played by John Boyega and that guy

2522
01:59:47.159 --> 01:59:50.579
what plays Poe in Star Wars.

2523
01:59:50.640 --> 01:59:52.199
So good that we can't remember his game.

2524
01:59:52.319 --> 01:59:54.119
Oscar Isaac.

2525
01:59:54.239 --> 01:59:54.899
Oxerizer.

2526
01:59:54.960 --> 01:59:58.380
I couldn't remember if Oscar Isaac was him or Kylo Wren. but yeah

2527
01:59:58.380 --> 02:00:00.539
Oscar Eiser can and John Boyaker.

2528
02:00:00.600 --> 02:00:03.000
Are we making the films now or back in the time?

2529
02:00:03.060 --> 02:00:03.840
we're making them now.

2530
02:00:03.899 --> 02:00:05.819
They're making them now.

2531
02:00:05.880 --> 02:00:08.159
It's a time travel thing, so you can handing my book.

2532
02:00:08.159 --> 02:00:09.659
We're talking about the same cast.

2533
02:00:09.720 --> 02:00:12.239
Okay, we'd be having, because these are all about the time that

2534
02:00:12.239 --> 02:00:14.399
they're made, and we've always said that Doctor Who talks about

2535
02:00:14.399 --> 02:00:18.060
the very much the era in which it's produced, I would like John

2536
02:00:18.060 --> 02:00:22.920
Frankenheimer to direct, and I would like Mike Hodgers to produce

2537
02:00:22.920 --> 02:00:26.640
Mind of Evil, because Mike Hodges did the 1st get Carter

2538
02:00:26.640 --> 02:00:28.680
Frankenheimer did Manchurian candidate.

2539
02:00:28.739 --> 02:00:34.439
And it's a really fantastic, Cold War, lovely piece with SFL

2540
02:00:34.439 --> 02:00:37.079
elements, and it really predicates what was happening with China

2541
02:00:37.079 --> 02:00:40.020
and the Eastern Bloc and us.

2542
02:00:40.079 --> 02:00:41.399
And it was great in it.

2543
02:00:41.460 --> 02:00:42.300
He really is.

2544
02:00:42.359 --> 02:00:44.039
And so, and so is Pertley.

2545
02:00:44.100 --> 02:00:45.359
And the Kellum machine is just ridiculous.

2546
02:00:45.420 --> 02:00:46.500
I'd love to see it.

2547
02:00:46.560 --> 02:00:48.180
That'd be great. done on the screen.

2548
02:00:48.239 --> 02:00:49.979
That's a great, great show.

2549
02:00:50.039 --> 02:00:51.840
We didn't discuss your choice, which was inferno.

2550
02:00:51.899 --> 02:00:53.100
I think that's also a great trip.

2551
02:00:53.159 --> 02:00:54.000
I think it's really good.

2552
02:00:54.060 --> 02:00:57.119
Again, it's friend of the podcast, Kate Orman's all-time, probably

2553
02:00:57.119 --> 02:00:58.560
favourite per week, probably.

2554
02:00:58.619 --> 02:01:01.800
It'd be nice if it was shorter, so I would go for that too.

2555
02:01:01.859 --> 02:01:02.699
Yeah, yeah.

2556
02:01:03.000 --> 02:01:06.659
I still think Planet of the Spiders is the most emotionally

2557
02:01:06.659 --> 02:01:07.979
redolent one of this era.

2558
02:01:08.039 --> 02:01:09.479
It just feels so great.

2559
02:01:09.960 --> 02:01:12.300
Okay, moving on.

2560
02:01:42.359 --> 02:01:45.060
We're now back into the black and white era of the show, and it's

2561
02:01:45.060 --> 02:01:46.319
the Patrick Trout era.

2562
02:01:46.380 --> 02:01:49.800
What do we have to say about the man, the era, the time?

2563
02:01:49.859 --> 02:01:54.659
He's still my favourite doctor. and, watching them in order, and

2564
02:01:54.659 --> 02:01:59.460
my god, being able to watch ones which didn't exist in a watchable

2565
02:01:59.460 --> 02:02:00.899
form 3 years ago.

2566
02:02:00.960 --> 02:02:03.840
We've had enemy of the world come back, web of fear.

2567
02:02:03.960 --> 02:02:07.920
Ice Warriors has been animated, Moonbase has been animated.

2568
02:02:07.979 --> 02:02:10.920
We've got a recon of underwater menace.

2569
02:02:10.979 --> 02:02:12.359
Power of the Dialects has been animated.

2570
02:02:12.420 --> 02:02:16.380
Suddenly from video where we had, I think, 7 Patrick Trout stories

2571
02:02:16.380 --> 02:02:19.140
we could watch in some kind of full form and even then the

2572
02:02:19.140 --> 02:02:20.340
invasion was missing 2 episodes.

2573
02:02:20.460 --> 02:02:24.359
We're up to 13 of 21 with the wheel in space now getting an

2574
02:02:24.359 --> 02:02:25.560
official recon as well.

2575
02:02:25.619 --> 02:02:26.579
When what?

2576
02:02:26.640 --> 02:02:27.539
Did you not know about this?

2577
02:02:28.140 --> 02:02:31.079
For a time, it's going to be exclusive to the Brit box streaming

2578
02:02:31.079 --> 02:02:34.500
service in the US because Brit box is experimenting with doing

2579
02:02:34.500 --> 02:02:39.239
advanced recons, so some animation, but advanced recons, because

2580
02:02:39.239 --> 02:02:42.659
Doctor Who's incredibly popular on their service, they want to be

2581
02:02:42.659 --> 02:02:43.560
able to stream the whole series.

2582
02:02:43.619 --> 02:02:47.460
So it's not confirmed that they're going to do more after that, but

2583
02:02:47.460 --> 02:02:49.439
Wheel in Space is a test case.

2584
02:02:49.500 --> 02:02:53.340
So we've gone from being able to see less than a 3rd of Trouton's

2585
02:02:53.340 --> 02:02:55.920
era to being able to see 2 thirds of it.

2586
02:02:56.039 --> 02:03:00.539
And Patrick Troughton...

2587
02:03:00.720 --> 02:03:04.560
You said earlier, Nathan, Peter Davidson, best actor to play the

2588
02:03:04.560 --> 02:03:05.640
doctor, I think it's Pat.

2589
02:03:05.699 --> 02:03:09.600
And I think it's Pat in particular because even more than John

2590
02:03:09.600 --> 02:03:14.399
Pertwee, when you watch him in interviews, He's so different from

2591
02:03:14.399 --> 02:03:16.319
his role as the doctor.

2592
02:03:16.380 --> 02:03:18.000
He's still magical to me.

2593
02:03:18.060 --> 02:03:21.779
He's a little bit dangerous and a little bit alien without

2594
02:03:21.779 --> 02:03:28.319
overemphasising it, but the revelation for me, watching all

2595
02:03:28.319 --> 02:03:32.399
through again, is the dear departed Deborah Watling.

2596
02:03:32.460 --> 02:03:40.020
And the fact that Victoria was not just a silly little screaming

2597
02:03:40.020 --> 02:03:44.760
head on a stick, you know, she was scared a lot of the time

2598
02:03:44.760 --> 02:03:48.000
because of her background, but is written and brilliantly

2599
02:03:48.000 --> 02:03:51.840
performed as that pertly thing of being scared and doing what you

2600
02:03:51.840 --> 02:03:53.520
have to do anyway and getting on with it.

2601
02:03:53.640 --> 02:03:58.619
And nothing is more evident than that than the wonderful moment in

2602
02:03:58.619 --> 02:04:03.659
enemy of the world where she goes to backhand Pat across the

2603
02:04:03.659 --> 02:04:04.199
face.

2604
02:04:04.260 --> 02:04:05.819
You know?

2605
02:04:05.880 --> 02:04:08.220
And that in a way comes out of nowhere.

2606
02:04:08.340 --> 02:04:11.939
And it reminds me of that note that was given for Lola McGovern

2607
02:04:11.939 --> 02:04:18.659
back in 1963 Barbara's forerunner that it was the note of, but

2608
02:04:18.659 --> 02:04:21.359
sometimes capable of timid rabbit courage.

2609
02:04:21.420 --> 02:04:22.859
And that's Victoria.

2610
02:04:22.920 --> 02:04:25.800
You know, she's very, very afraid, but when her back is against

2611
02:04:25.800 --> 02:04:27.539
the wall, she will lash out.

2612
02:04:27.600 --> 02:04:29.880
She will speak her mind and what have you.

2613
02:04:29.939 --> 02:04:33.300
I think in a lot of scripts she was poorly served, but Deborah

2614
02:04:33.300 --> 02:04:34.619
never poorly served us.

2615
02:04:35.399 --> 02:04:41.279
Wow, well, my revelations are that I think Patrick is the best

2616
02:04:41.279 --> 02:04:42.420
actor have played the doctor.

2617
02:04:42.479 --> 02:04:44.819
He is mesmerising to watch.

2618
02:04:46.199 --> 02:04:50.819
Along with that, what you've just had to say about Deborah Watting

2619
02:04:50.819 --> 02:04:53.220
in the character, Victoria, certainly getting those episodes back

2620
02:04:53.220 --> 02:04:55.979
in that moment when she goes to bitch slap the doctor, it's

2621
02:04:55.979 --> 02:04:56.340
fantastic.

2622
02:04:56.399 --> 02:05:03.659
And I will now say that Victoria is my least favourite companion

2623
02:05:03.659 --> 02:05:08.579
of the era and I've not revealed that before.

2624
02:05:09.960 --> 02:05:14.939
But because of the character traits.

2625
02:05:15.000 --> 02:05:17.819
I'll say now, having seen more episodes, that there's moments that

2626
02:05:17.819 --> 02:05:19.619
she has brilliance in those moments where I just want to bitch

2627
02:05:19.619 --> 02:05:20.460
slip on myself.

2628
02:05:20.520 --> 02:05:22.140
And that's not Debbie's fault, right?

2629
02:05:22.260 --> 02:05:23.460
So that's been a revelation.

2630
02:05:23.520 --> 02:05:26.699
I think the major revelation is that I really don't like a lot of

2631
02:05:26.699 --> 02:05:27.119
the stories.

2632
02:05:27.180 --> 02:05:31.619
Like, they're too long. really codified, similar, aren't they?

2633
02:05:31.680 --> 02:05:35.100
And there's very few that I would actually put in my top 20, Doctor

2634
02:05:35.100 --> 02:05:37.140
Who's. like just in my head.

2635
02:05:38.460 --> 02:05:40.979
But I love Patrick Troughton.

2636
02:05:41.039 --> 02:05:42.899
And I love the other companions.

2637
02:05:42.960 --> 02:05:45.119
And I guess it's the way television is made.

2638
02:05:45.180 --> 02:05:48.960
And also, I think the other thing is how the perch wee era begins

2639
02:05:48.960 --> 02:05:52.920
before perch wee's there, really. with Enemy of the World, and

2640
02:05:52.920 --> 02:05:54.239
then what comes after it.

2641
02:05:54.300 --> 02:05:59.640
So it's just, it's starting that perch we feel is starting before

2642
02:05:59.640 --> 02:06:00.960
perch.

2643
02:06:01.020 --> 02:06:02.939
Like, in those stories.

2644
02:06:03.000 --> 02:06:05.279
I'm just saying like there's just, there's just more of that than

2645
02:06:05.279 --> 02:06:06.119
I thought there was going to be.

2646
02:06:06.180 --> 02:06:10.560
I really hope we, they more episodes turn up. really do.

2647
02:06:10.859 --> 02:06:15.000
I didn't actually say that Pete was the best actor to play the

2648
02:06:15.000 --> 02:06:15.300
role.

2649
02:06:15.359 --> 02:06:16.920
I said, you're one of the best.

2650
02:06:17.760 --> 02:06:18.720
And the other one is Pat.

2651
02:06:18.779 --> 02:06:20.399
I think he's extraordinary.

2652
02:06:20.460 --> 02:06:24.300
And I think that the loss of so many episodes, particularly at the

2653
02:06:24.300 --> 02:06:26.939
beginning of his series, is tragic.

2654
02:06:26.939 --> 02:06:30.539
And there's no way that those animations can replicate his

2655
02:06:30.539 --> 02:06:32.939
performance. you know, they're mere guesses.

2656
02:06:33.000 --> 02:06:35.699
And they, you know, it's not a living person.

2657
02:06:35.760 --> 02:06:39.899
And I remember watching, you know, you've got that massive run

2658
02:06:39.899 --> 02:06:44.579
from 10th planet episode for all the way through, so whatever the

2659
02:06:44.579 --> 02:06:47.399
hell, the 1st episode of the underwater menace that exists is

2660
02:06:47.399 --> 02:06:47.640
too.

2661
02:06:47.819 --> 02:06:51.000
And there's, we don't have any of those.

2662
02:06:51.060 --> 02:06:54.779
And even in the underwater menace, which is kind of terrible.

2663
02:06:54.840 --> 02:06:57.479
The moment you see him acting.

2664
02:06:57.539 --> 02:06:59.340
He is so incredibly good.

2665
02:06:59.340 --> 02:07:00.060
Yes.

2666
02:07:00.180 --> 02:07:02.100
And he's generous.

2667
02:07:02.159 --> 02:07:07.500
He's subtle, he's thoughtful, he's really, really amazing.

2668
02:07:07.560 --> 02:07:10.319
And I love his breathless panic.

2669
02:07:10.380 --> 02:07:12.359
That's that register that he does.

2670
02:07:12.420 --> 02:07:15.840
I think he's really, really amazingly good.

2671
02:07:15.899 --> 02:07:22.140
I think the stories are a bit samey, I think that season 5, apart

2672
02:07:22.140 --> 02:07:25.920
from Enemy of the World, is, you know, just the same story each

2673
02:07:25.920 --> 02:07:26.220
time.

2674
02:07:26.279 --> 02:07:28.020
The stories are too long.

2675
02:07:28.079 --> 02:07:30.899
But even then, some of the stories are really good.

2676
02:07:30.960 --> 02:07:35.159
Like, I think the Ice Warriors is, you know, for a crummy base

2677
02:07:35.159 --> 02:07:38.579
under siege of the kind that we've seen a bunch of times is

2678
02:07:38.579 --> 02:07:39.420
actually pretty good.

2679
02:07:39.479 --> 02:07:43.260
I think that the abominable snowmen is good.

2680
02:07:43.260 --> 02:07:47.279
And there are maybe more experimental stories than you can

2681
02:07:47.279 --> 02:07:50.880
remember, you know, there's nothing like the crotons in the rest

2682
02:07:50.880 --> 02:07:51.659
of the era.

2683
02:07:51.720 --> 02:07:54.359
There's nothing like the mind robber in the rest of the era.

2684
02:07:54.420 --> 02:07:58.619
I think wheel in space is crazy and mental.

2685
02:07:58.680 --> 02:08:03.420
You know, each base under siege does have a different feel to it.

2686
02:08:03.479 --> 02:08:08.399
But it is a little bit of a disappointment after the heart and all

2687
02:08:08.399 --> 02:08:11.699
era and just the sort of excesses of experimentation and the

2688
02:08:11.699 --> 02:08:15.119
uncertainty about what we're doing to see the show settle down

2689
02:08:15.119 --> 02:08:17.220
into a we fight monsters kind of mode.

2690
02:08:17.279 --> 02:08:20.939
But in saying that, like, you know, season 4 is very much them

2691
02:08:20.939 --> 02:08:25.079
taking those steps at defining what we consider to be Doctor Who

2692
02:08:25.079 --> 02:08:27.539
in terms of the structure and all that sort of thing and they're

2693
02:08:27.539 --> 02:08:29.579
getting more and more confident by the end of the season and then

2694
02:08:29.579 --> 02:08:32.039
that season 5 is taking that and just sticking with that.

2695
02:08:32.100 --> 02:08:35.699
So I think it's it, I see those things in it, is that you've got

2696
02:08:35.699 --> 02:08:40.140
that experimentation as well as a child learning to walk and run

2697
02:08:40.140 --> 02:08:43.560
in season 4 towards the end, then trying different things rather

2698
02:08:43.560 --> 02:08:44.460
than just the same thing.

2699
02:08:44.520 --> 02:08:47.640
Doctor Who becoming Doctor Who, if I can say it like that.

2700
02:08:47.699 --> 02:08:49.140
No, I think that's absolutely right.

2701
02:08:49.199 --> 02:08:51.659
I completely disagree with all of you.

2702
02:08:52.619 --> 02:08:54.479
Surprise, surprise.

2703
02:08:54.539 --> 02:08:56.520
This is all about athly tiresome.

2704
02:08:57.720 --> 02:09:04.140
No, I'm now that shovel on the front of Sean Connery's Rolls-Royce

2705
02:09:04.140 --> 02:09:06.600
in the Avengers movie that shouldn't have been made, chugging

2706
02:09:06.600 --> 02:09:07.859
through received opinion.

2707
02:09:07.920 --> 02:09:09.720
I think this isn't Doctor Who.

2708
02:09:09.779 --> 02:09:13.260
And I think we have, we do actually have the best doctor, the best

2709
02:09:13.260 --> 02:09:13.680
actor.

2710
02:09:13.739 --> 02:09:16.859
I agree to play the part of Doctor Who, and he plays it perfectly

2711
02:09:16.859 --> 02:09:20.579
and he's the only reason, I would agree also the supporting cast

2712
02:09:20.579 --> 02:09:24.180
and there are many of them, and there are secondary characters

2713
02:09:24.180 --> 02:09:27.659
within each one that just enliven it, because Britain was full of

2714
02:09:27.659 --> 02:09:30.840
great repactors who had come from all radio.

2715
02:09:30.899 --> 02:09:36.180
Our whole, out, that whole generation were audio attuned, audio

2716
02:09:36.180 --> 02:09:38.520
natives would probably say that.

2717
02:09:38.579 --> 02:09:43.079
And I think that you do the entire era of disservice by trying to

2718
02:09:43.079 --> 02:09:46.319
watch it, whether it be loose cannon or an animated

2719
02:09:46.319 --> 02:09:47.220
reconstruction.

2720
02:09:47.279 --> 02:09:49.680
I found power of the Daleks. absolutely.

2721
02:09:49.739 --> 02:09:52.800
At the Nadir of a viewing experience to watch.

2722
02:09:52.859 --> 02:09:54.600
And it's one of my all-time favourite audios.

2723
02:09:54.659 --> 02:09:57.659
Experience it in the audio version.

2724
02:09:57.720 --> 02:10:01.199
This is a great voice actor playing the part of the doctor with

2725
02:10:01.199 --> 02:10:04.500
some really terrific supporting people around him.

2726
02:10:04.560 --> 02:10:09.060
And there are very beautifully attuned scripts considering the

2727
02:10:09.060 --> 02:10:11.699
horrendous program that they were having to work at.

2728
02:10:11.760 --> 02:10:16.199
And the fatigue that is in the ensemble cast and very much they're

2729
02:10:16.199 --> 02:10:20.399
held back by the lead actor, who you can see by the end of it, is

2730
02:10:20.399 --> 02:10:25.140
just wanting to throw crates around the set, that moment in the

2731
02:10:25.140 --> 02:10:29.220
space pirates when the station is breaking apart is an entire

2732
02:10:29.220 --> 02:10:34.859
metaphor for Mr. Troughton's response to the entire production.

2733
02:10:34.859 --> 02:10:39.119
Sling it out into space. but it is very different isn't it?

2734
02:10:39.180 --> 02:10:41.760
But it works beautifully as an audio experience.

2735
02:10:41.819 --> 02:10:44.760
And I've listened to this entire era now 3 times all the way

2736
02:10:44.760 --> 02:10:47.880
through on the BBC recordings and watched the ones that we have.

2737
02:10:47.939 --> 02:10:49.439
It works better as audio.

2738
02:10:49.500 --> 02:10:54.060
You're not distracted by the desultory production standards, the

2739
02:10:54.060 --> 02:10:55.680
lachrymose direction.

2740
02:10:55.739 --> 02:10:58.560
It's largely pretty abysmal direction this era.

2741
02:10:58.619 --> 02:10:59.579
Everyone's tired.

2742
02:10:59.640 --> 02:11:00.539
There isn't any money.

2743
02:11:00.600 --> 02:11:01.859
We're going through the motion.

2744
02:11:01.920 --> 02:11:03.300
We're making it because we have to.

2745
02:11:03.359 --> 02:11:05.640
But we still have really good people in it.

2746
02:11:05.699 --> 02:11:08.220
Let them shine, let them do what they do best.

2747
02:11:08.279 --> 02:11:10.979
Listen to it on radio and then it's really good. trying to watch

2748
02:11:10.979 --> 02:11:11.220
it.

2749
02:11:11.279 --> 02:11:13.260
It's not a great period of Doctor Who.

2750
02:11:13.319 --> 02:11:18.479
I think, though, that you do miss out on crucial bits of Pat's

2751
02:11:18.479 --> 02:11:19.800
performance if you can't see.

2752
02:11:19.859 --> 02:11:21.359
You miss him pinching the girls off set.

2753
02:11:21.420 --> 02:11:23.279
You know, it's like a little tap on the bottom.

2754
02:11:23.340 --> 02:11:26.520
But this is the twinkle on his iron, and what he does with his

2755
02:11:26.520 --> 02:11:27.960
hands and...

2756
02:11:27.960 --> 02:11:28.739
That's what we're talking about.

2757
02:11:31.800 --> 02:11:32.640
I walked into that.

2758
02:11:32.640 --> 02:11:37.680
You know, even at this late stage of the flight through entirety, I

2759
02:11:37.680 --> 02:11:39.659
still walk strange.

2760
02:11:39.720 --> 02:11:40.500
Thank you, Richard.

2761
02:11:41.279 --> 02:11:45.899
Yes, I see I see what you're saying with the direction and that

2762
02:11:45.899 --> 02:11:51.779
doing so many episodes a year, you know, it's evolving from the

2763
02:11:51.779 --> 02:11:57.300
early 60s way of doing television like it's changed, but they're

2764
02:11:57.300 --> 02:12:02.039
still finding their feet in terms of trying to get it right. apace

2765
02:12:02.039 --> 02:12:03.119
or whatever.

2766
02:12:03.180 --> 02:12:06.840
Like, it's very different from heart, like, yeah, like, completely

2767
02:12:06.840 --> 02:12:07.260
different.

2768
02:12:07.319 --> 02:12:07.680
Yeah.

2769
02:12:07.739 --> 02:12:09.899
And they are trying to, and we've covered all this in the talking

2770
02:12:09.899 --> 02:12:10.199
about it.

2771
02:12:10.260 --> 02:12:15.539
They are trying to find a milure, a way to keep going with demands

2772
02:12:15.899 --> 02:12:17.220
and they'll get there with pertry.

2773
02:12:17.279 --> 02:12:17.939
Yes, exactly.

2774
02:12:18.000 --> 02:12:19.380
This is the bridge between.

2775
02:12:19.439 --> 02:12:21.300
Unlike anything else.

2776
02:12:21.359 --> 02:12:25.619
Part of the reason I love season 6 so much is it combines that

2777
02:12:25.619 --> 02:12:28.260
base under siege thing that we had in season five.

2778
02:12:28.260 --> 02:12:33.060
But it starts to be more experimental again and you've got a

2779
02:12:33.060 --> 02:12:36.479
stronger female companion, you've got Zoe.

2780
02:12:36.600 --> 02:12:39.720
And despite the fact that Pat is tired.

2781
02:12:39.779 --> 02:12:43.739
He is reinvigorated by Wendy Padbury and all of their scenes

2782
02:12:43.739 --> 02:12:46.619
together, like things like the crotons and the war games.

2783
02:12:46.680 --> 02:12:50.039
You can clearly see that he adores working with her.

2784
02:12:50.100 --> 02:12:54.239
Not that he ever expressed any negativity about working with

2785
02:12:54.239 --> 02:12:59.399
Frazer or Debbie or even further back, Anika and Ben.

2786
02:12:59.399 --> 02:13:02.279
It's, it's, it's a whole ensemble cast that keeps him going

2787
02:13:02.279 --> 02:13:03.000
again.

2788
02:13:03.060 --> 02:13:03.659
Yeah, exactly.

2789
02:13:03.720 --> 02:13:06.600
And refreshing that ensemble cast keeps him interested.

2790
02:13:07.020 --> 02:13:09.420
Is he the hero of the era?

2791
02:13:09.479 --> 02:13:11.220
Is there a villain of the era?

2792
02:13:11.279 --> 02:13:11.880
Jerry Dovers.

2793
02:13:11.939 --> 02:13:13.500
Yeah.

2794
02:13:13.500 --> 02:13:17.819
And I'd say conversely, probably Victor Pemberton and Derek

2795
02:13:17.819 --> 02:13:19.020
Sherwin might be the heroes.

2796
02:13:19.079 --> 02:13:22.319
Yeah, I think Hazman and Lincoln are the villains of the year.

2797
02:13:22.380 --> 02:13:23.579
Are they the Dominators?

2798
02:13:23.640 --> 02:13:24.539
They're the dominators.

2799
02:13:24.600 --> 02:13:25.319
But hang on.

2800
02:13:25.380 --> 02:13:27.239
Who wrote abominable snowman?

2801
02:13:27.359 --> 02:13:30.420
Yeah, I know, but you love that.

2802
02:13:30.479 --> 02:13:32.699
I know, I know, but then you kind of look back on it.

2803
02:13:32.760 --> 02:13:37.619
Xander has this thing about them because all the stories end up

2804
02:13:37.619 --> 02:13:39.899
being slightly racist.

2805
02:13:40.020 --> 02:13:44.159
Sabre is a young, highly exuberant and well-educated, highly

2806
02:13:44.159 --> 02:13:47.279
intelligent man who has very strong opinions, but it doesn't

2807
02:13:47.279 --> 02:13:48.960
necessarily mean they're universally right.

2808
02:13:49.020 --> 02:13:50.760
Oh no, no, I'm not saying that at all.

2809
02:13:50.819 --> 02:13:53.880
So I tend to, it is that he's his own little omnivorse right

2810
02:13:53.880 --> 02:13:54.060
there.

2811
02:13:54.420 --> 02:13:59.159
I'm disagreeing with him more and more as watching this. the

2812
02:13:59.159 --> 02:14:00.119
dominators is terrible.

2813
02:14:00.180 --> 02:14:02.699
Oh, look, I can't disagree with that.

2814
02:14:02.760 --> 02:14:06.060
Although, it's also really funny and it's because it's really

2815
02:14:06.060 --> 02:14:06.720
about the times.

2816
02:14:06.779 --> 02:14:10.319
Well, it's about the times that Pat decided that he wasn't going

2817
02:14:10.319 --> 02:14:11.640
to do this crap anymore.

2818
02:14:11.880 --> 02:14:14.220
It's a great stinker.

2819
02:14:14.279 --> 02:14:17.039
But then you've got the mind robber and the invasion right

2820
02:14:17.039 --> 02:14:17.340
afterwards.

2821
02:14:17.399 --> 02:14:21.840
And so you were saying that the heroes were production team.

2822
02:14:21.899 --> 02:14:26.579
Yeah, I mean, you know, Victor Pemberton, who just passed.

2823
02:14:26.640 --> 02:14:28.500
Yeah, just passed away recently.

2824
02:14:28.560 --> 02:14:31.920
Um, going to join David, who's been...

2825
02:14:31.979 --> 02:14:33.479
You know, Victor Pemberton.

2826
02:14:33.539 --> 02:14:39.000
He was only script editor for a very short time, but from what it

2827
02:14:39.000 --> 02:14:43.859
appears, he kind of informed that season 5 approach, which is very

2828
02:14:43.859 --> 02:14:49.319
repetitious, but the richness of the characterisation is what

2829
02:14:49.319 --> 02:14:50.399
makes it so good there.

2830
02:14:50.460 --> 02:14:52.859
And even though I'm not a big fan of Fury from the Deep, I cannot

2831
02:14:52.859 --> 02:14:57.239
fault the characterisations in that story, I think possibly they

2832
02:14:57.239 --> 02:15:00.359
are a little too strong, the doctor and friends are left with not

2833
02:15:00.359 --> 02:15:02.640
much to do, which is one of my criticisms of that.

2834
02:15:02.760 --> 02:15:05.819
But as a piece of science fiction as a piece of horror, I think

2835
02:15:05.819 --> 02:15:06.600
it's brilliant.

2836
02:15:06.659 --> 02:15:13.739
And Derek Sherwin, of course, In the background throughout the bit

2837
02:15:13.739 --> 02:15:17.100
of season 5 that he worked on, he kind of went, oh, I'm not sure

2838
02:15:17.100 --> 02:15:18.359
this quite works.

2839
02:15:18.420 --> 02:15:20.760
So when he comes into power in season six.

2840
02:15:20.819 --> 02:15:23.279
He's like, no, you know, we're going to have different setting

2841
02:15:23.279 --> 02:15:26.039
every week and sometimes it's going to be an invasion, but oh

2842
02:15:26.039 --> 02:15:29.640
we've got this thing about people using brain power to power a

2843
02:15:29.640 --> 02:15:30.119
spaceship.

2844
02:15:30.180 --> 02:15:33.180
And then to save the show.

2845
02:15:33.239 --> 02:15:34.680
We gonna set it on earth.

2846
02:15:35.220 --> 02:15:38.100
And he does save the show in that way.

2847
02:15:38.579 --> 02:15:40.439
That's a good point.

2848
02:15:41.100 --> 02:15:45.060
So, on that point, we're now going to go, one to watch.

2849
02:15:45.899 --> 02:15:48.600
Oh, one to watch the enemy of the world.

2850
02:15:48.840 --> 02:15:51.659
I'd say that, but I'm going to say the Crocheons.

2851
02:15:51.720 --> 02:15:56.579
Yeah, I'm going to say I have similar reservations to you, Richard

2852
02:15:56.579 --> 02:15:58.979
about the animation, but I'm going to say Power of the Daleks.

2853
02:16:00.479 --> 02:16:02.640
Ha, ha, ha.

2854
02:16:02.699 --> 02:16:05.640
I would say listen to I love the Highlanders, but I really love

2855
02:16:05.640 --> 02:16:06.359
the war games.

2856
02:16:06.420 --> 02:16:07.079
Can't watch that.

2857
02:16:07.140 --> 02:16:08.640
Yeah, it's great.

2858
02:16:08.699 --> 02:16:10.859
Really drunk. 10 episodes.

2859
02:16:10.920 --> 02:16:12.420
That's great.

2860
02:16:12.479 --> 02:16:13.739
One to avoid.

2861
02:16:14.399 --> 02:16:17.640
Oh, oh, the Dominators, awful.

2862
02:16:17.699 --> 02:16:18.180
Yes.

2863
02:16:18.239 --> 02:16:19.140
Dominators.

2864
02:16:19.260 --> 02:16:21.000
Space Pirates.

2865
02:16:21.119 --> 02:16:23.039
At Lisa Space Pirates has Milo Clancy.

2866
02:16:23.399 --> 02:16:26.340
Actually, Moonbase pretty crusty.

2867
02:16:26.399 --> 02:16:27.600
Oh, okay.

2868
02:16:27.600 --> 02:16:28.199
Yep, okay.

2869
02:16:28.260 --> 02:16:33.180
And now, Patrick Chowden is starring in the movie of the week.

2870
02:16:33.239 --> 02:16:36.479
I reckon there's a whole heap of them that you can do.

2871
02:16:36.540 --> 02:16:38.159
What a choice.

2872
02:16:38.219 --> 02:16:39.659
But I'm going to pick the invasion.

2873
02:16:39.959 --> 02:16:45.120
But only if we can have Kevin Stoney back as Tobias Vaughan as

2874
02:16:45.120 --> 02:16:45.239
well.

2875
02:16:45.299 --> 02:16:46.200
It's a great choice.

2876
02:16:46.260 --> 02:16:49.200
I am going to pick the wheel in space.

2877
02:16:49.260 --> 02:16:50.879
Yes, that was my 2nd thing.

2878
02:16:50.940 --> 02:16:53.879
Because again, I think tighten the script top a bit.

2879
02:16:53.940 --> 02:16:54.360
Be really good.

2880
02:16:54.420 --> 02:16:57.239
Yeah, mine is enemy of the world with pretty much the same

2881
02:16:57.239 --> 02:16:59.760
director, which is I picked last time.

2882
02:17:00.719 --> 02:17:05.819
I'm going to go with the macro terror. choice.

2883
02:17:05.879 --> 02:17:06.840
Yeah, because exactly.

2884
02:17:06.899 --> 02:17:09.659
In fact, you can shoot it in Port Myron, and you've got the same

2885
02:17:09.659 --> 02:17:10.620
you know, you've got...

2886
02:17:10.620 --> 02:17:12.000
Yeah, it's perfect.

2887
02:17:12.059 --> 02:17:13.020
Yes, perfect.

2888
02:17:13.079 --> 02:17:14.219
All right.

2889
02:17:14.340 --> 02:17:16.079
Back to the beginning.

2890
02:17:45.420 --> 02:17:47.520
A heart in the era.

2891
02:17:47.579 --> 02:17:50.760
Whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop.

2892
02:17:50.879 --> 02:17:52.139
We've got to do our stick.

2893
02:17:52.200 --> 02:17:52.979
That's the last.

2894
02:17:55.559 --> 02:17:59.579
The hero of the Hartnell era is William Hartnell.

2895
02:17:59.700 --> 02:18:00.000
Yep.

2896
02:18:00.000 --> 02:18:02.579
He created the role.

2897
02:18:02.579 --> 02:18:08.520
He has his real performance has been kind of forgotten in a way by

2898
02:18:08.520 --> 02:18:11.579
fandom when he became in the 80s, the grumpy one.

2899
02:18:11.639 --> 02:18:12.959
He's not the grumpy one.

2900
02:18:13.020 --> 02:18:18.299
He is sweet and funny and childlike and grandfatherly.

2901
02:18:18.360 --> 02:18:22.200
It's an extraordinarily charismatic performance.

2902
02:18:22.260 --> 02:18:25.799
It's a very different role from what the doctor's role ends up

2903
02:18:25.799 --> 02:18:29.879
being, but I think he's marvellous, and then the heroine of the

2904
02:18:29.879 --> 02:18:30.239
era.

2905
02:18:30.840 --> 02:18:34.379
Do I need to, do I need to say?

2906
02:18:34.440 --> 02:18:36.420
It's it's Jackie Hill.

2907
02:18:36.540 --> 02:18:40.319
And if it hadn't been for her, we wouldn't be here.

2908
02:18:40.379 --> 02:18:45.540
I totally agree with you and I think watching this, I just love

2909
02:18:45.540 --> 02:18:46.860
watching them.

2910
02:18:46.920 --> 02:18:50.040
I love watching him, all the little things he does.

2911
02:18:50.100 --> 02:18:55.079
Television was made so differently in that era and I love watching

2912
02:18:55.079 --> 02:18:56.700
it from that point of view.

2913
02:18:56.760 --> 02:18:59.879
You know, I challenge any actor to do essentially what is a state

2914
02:18:59.879 --> 02:19:01.500
25 minute stage play each week.

2915
02:19:01.500 --> 02:19:04.620
Yeah. without getting retanks.

2916
02:19:04.739 --> 02:19:05.219
Yeah.

2917
02:19:05.219 --> 02:19:09.479
I agree with both of you, but I must include an honourable mention

2918
02:19:09.479 --> 02:19:11.340
for verity left.

2919
02:19:11.340 --> 02:19:11.700
Of course.

2920
02:19:11.760 --> 02:19:12.600
Yes, yeah.

2921
02:19:12.659 --> 02:19:17.879
And, you know, that biopic shows also how important Warris Hussein

2922
02:19:17.879 --> 02:19:21.299
was in the early days, but he was gone by the end of year one in

2923
02:19:21.299 --> 02:19:24.239
terms of Doctor Who has had a long successful career.

2924
02:19:24.299 --> 02:19:27.420
But yeah, verity stuck around 2 full years.

2925
02:19:27.479 --> 02:19:32.879
Yeah, she did. which is longer than most did on series that, you

2926
02:19:32.879 --> 02:19:34.680
know, serials for that era.

2927
02:19:34.739 --> 02:19:37.440
You tended to just do a season, even big productions.

2928
02:19:37.500 --> 02:19:40.860
The Avengers were independent television.

2929
02:19:40.920 --> 02:19:42.000
So they weren't BBC.

2930
02:19:42.059 --> 02:19:43.260
It was a different way of doing TV.

2931
02:19:43.319 --> 02:19:46.020
And even then, Leonard White only did a season and a half of the

2932
02:19:46.020 --> 02:19:46.379
Avengers.

2933
02:19:46.440 --> 02:19:48.299
John Bryce did a season and a half.

2934
02:19:48.360 --> 02:19:49.440
Brian Clemons did.

2935
02:19:49.500 --> 02:19:52.020
Yeah, the last 3 seasons with a bit of John Rice.

2936
02:19:52.079 --> 02:19:54.000
My shows were much shorter.

2937
02:19:54.059 --> 02:19:56.340
We only seem to remember the big epic ones because they're the

2938
02:19:56.340 --> 02:19:58.319
ones that are available and the ones that were repeated.

2939
02:19:58.379 --> 02:19:59.280
The ones that survived.

2940
02:19:59.280 --> 02:20:00.059
Yeah, exactly.

2941
02:20:00.120 --> 02:20:02.760
But our parents were watching things much more episodically.

2942
02:20:02.819 --> 02:20:06.059
Doctor Who was a rare thing and a big event right from day one.

2943
02:20:06.120 --> 02:20:10.139
I would add to all of those that honorific that you've named Delia

2944
02:20:10.139 --> 02:20:10.860
Derbyshire.

2945
02:20:10.920 --> 02:20:13.739
And I don't think you would have tuned in for a week too if she

2946
02:20:13.739 --> 02:20:14.159
wasn't there.

2947
02:20:14.219 --> 02:20:17.520
And Ray Cusick, because I don't think it would have tuned in after

2948
02:20:17.520 --> 02:20:19.020
a few weeks.

2949
02:20:19.020 --> 02:20:22.920
If Cusick's Nations script is great, but honestly, it was written

2950
02:20:22.920 --> 02:20:27.000
by Heinland and a few other blokes in the 50s several times over.

2951
02:20:27.059 --> 02:20:28.979
It's Cusick that makes it work.

2952
02:20:29.040 --> 02:20:30.719
He's designed the Daleks.

2953
02:20:30.780 --> 02:20:31.799
Wow.

2954
02:20:31.860 --> 02:20:35.579
I think that nation actually, this is nation's heyday, though

2955
02:20:35.579 --> 02:20:42.719
because he creates 4 Doctor Who stories and each of them is vastly

2956
02:20:42.719 --> 02:20:45.239
different than the last one.

2957
02:20:45.299 --> 02:20:48.479
The funny thing is, Johnny Morris recently on Twitter has been

2958
02:20:48.479 --> 02:20:53.100
going on this wonderful thing of doing photo reconstructions, i.e

2959
02:20:53.100 --> 02:20:57.120
just a photo from the set with deleted scenes from Doctor Who

2960
02:20:57.120 --> 02:20:59.340
scripts, and he's got his hands on a copy of the mission of the

2961
02:20:59.340 --> 02:21:00.239
unknown script.

2962
02:21:00.299 --> 02:21:02.760
And the mission to the unknown script.

2963
02:21:02.819 --> 02:21:03.780
He says, this is very odd.

2964
02:21:03.840 --> 02:21:07.319
It has clearly been written on 2 different typewriters, Dennis

2965
02:21:07.319 --> 02:21:07.860
Spooner.

2966
02:21:08.040 --> 02:21:12.780
And it's literally things like, uh, tract of dialogue will be done

2967
02:21:12.780 --> 02:21:16.260
on one typewriter, and then the reply from the other character.

2968
02:21:16.319 --> 02:21:18.719
So it's a photocopy of the script.

2969
02:21:18.780 --> 02:21:22.020
It's not an original, but the margins are different.

2970
02:21:22.139 --> 02:21:23.760
The lettering slightly different.

2971
02:21:23.819 --> 02:21:27.719
So they've put a piece of paper over the top, whoever this other

2972
02:21:27.719 --> 02:21:32.340
scriptwriter was, Dennis Spooner, and just typed typed over the

2973
02:21:32.340 --> 02:21:32.940
top of the paper.

2974
02:21:33.000 --> 02:21:36.719
Don't you think that that sort of tarry nation all the way

2975
02:21:36.719 --> 02:21:36.959
through?

2976
02:21:37.020 --> 02:21:40.799
I mean, if it hadn't been for Bob Holmes, Genesis of the Daleks

2977
02:21:40.799 --> 02:21:42.000
would probably have been terrible.

2978
02:21:42.059 --> 02:21:47.219
And Chris Boucher, you know, turned Terry Nation's Blake 7 scripts

2979
02:21:47.219 --> 02:21:49.500
into things that are sort of watchable.

2980
02:21:49.559 --> 02:21:50.520
Could actually be shot, yeah.

2981
02:21:50.579 --> 02:21:52.319
Yeah, so Dennis Spooner is also...

2982
02:21:52.440 --> 02:21:52.860
Yeah.

2983
02:21:52.920 --> 02:21:54.479
Dennis Spooner, Denver and Whitaker.

2984
02:21:54.600 --> 02:21:56.280
Oh, absolutely.

2985
02:21:56.340 --> 02:21:59.040
And I'm also going to throw in a couple of other actors on

2986
02:21:59.040 --> 02:21:59.399
screen.

2987
02:21:59.459 --> 02:22:02.040
I think Maureen O'Brien and Peter Purvis.

2988
02:22:02.100 --> 02:22:03.180
Yeah, very good.

2989
02:22:03.180 --> 02:22:06.360
You know, unsung heroes in that 3rd series.

2990
02:22:06.780 --> 02:22:10.860
Yeah, I do agree that as much as I enjoy her performance.

2991
02:22:11.520 --> 02:22:15.659
Jackie Lane isn't fit to be mentioned in the same breath of all

2992
02:22:15.659 --> 02:22:16.379
those other people.

2993
02:22:16.379 --> 02:22:20.940
It's simply because all those other people, and William Russell

2994
02:22:20.940 --> 02:22:22.979
had a role in holding the show together.

2995
02:22:23.040 --> 02:22:25.979
Whereas Jackie Lane was never given that power.

2996
02:22:26.040 --> 02:22:29.459
You know, she was just kind of told, okay, you're the new Dr. Huger

2997
02:22:29.459 --> 02:22:34.680
on you go and was thrown into this chaotic situation, which, you

2998
02:22:34.680 --> 02:22:37.680
know, the viewer at home had no idea how chaotic things were on

2999
02:22:37.680 --> 02:22:38.219
Doctor Who.

3000
02:22:38.280 --> 02:22:40.319
Yeah, Caroline Ford did.

3001
02:22:40.379 --> 02:22:44.639
I think in season 3, it is visible on screen, how chaotic the

3002
02:22:44.639 --> 02:22:45.239
production is.

3003
02:22:45.299 --> 02:22:49.379
But on a screen this big, he says, you know, holding up fingers

3004
02:22:49.379 --> 02:22:51.239
about 4 inches away from each other.

3005
02:22:51.299 --> 02:22:53.520
Who's the producer after John Wiles?

3006
02:22:53.639 --> 02:22:58.799
That's when Jerry Davis and Innes Lloyd come in.

3007
02:22:58.860 --> 02:23:00.059
I think Inis Lloyd.

3008
02:23:00.180 --> 02:23:03.600
I'm not going to say he's a superhero compared to the others, but

3009
02:23:03.600 --> 02:23:07.680
you know, he's got streamlining production and setting story links

3010
02:23:07.680 --> 02:23:08.399
and that sort of thing.

3011
02:23:08.459 --> 02:23:09.659
It does a massacre, have we?

3012
02:23:10.079 --> 02:23:10.620
It does.

3013
02:23:11.760 --> 02:23:14.100
He makes changes to modernise the show.

3014
02:23:14.159 --> 02:23:19.200
He really does a great job. might be might be one of the piece.

3015
02:23:19.260 --> 02:23:20.700
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

3016
02:23:20.760 --> 02:23:21.479
I mean, that's the thing.

3017
02:23:21.540 --> 02:23:26.520
John Welles did necessarily a bad job or had bad ideas, but he had

3018
02:23:26.520 --> 02:23:31.680
very poor execution in how he handled William Hartnell because it

3019
02:23:31.680 --> 02:23:34.920
just seems from everyone's comments, including his own, his

3020
02:23:34.920 --> 02:23:37.020
attitude just seemed to be.

3021
02:23:37.079 --> 02:23:40.920
No, I don't care if you're the star, you'll fall into line, and as

3022
02:23:40.920 --> 02:23:43.620
soon as you present William Hartner with that doesn't matter what

3023
02:23:43.620 --> 02:23:47.879
you do afterwards, because quite rightly, I think more than any

3024
02:23:47.879 --> 02:23:51.780
other actor who's played the role, William Hartnell deserved

3025
02:23:51.780 --> 02:23:54.180
creative control to an extent.

3026
02:23:54.239 --> 02:24:00.120
It's so tough on a weekly budgeted, time and money budgeted TV

3027
02:24:00.120 --> 02:24:00.659
production.

3028
02:24:00.719 --> 02:24:02.940
We've talked about this is the thing that's come through in

3029
02:24:02.940 --> 02:24:03.959
today's discussion.

3030
02:24:04.020 --> 02:24:07.860
It looked what went wrong with Tom. wrong with, you know, any

3031
02:24:07.860 --> 02:24:09.899
actor that you give too much scope to.

3032
02:24:09.959 --> 02:24:12.840
There is a balance to that question because maybe if Colin had

3033
02:24:12.840 --> 02:24:14.520
been allowed to actually speak more.

3034
02:24:14.579 --> 02:24:16.799
We would have had a show that continued on.

3035
02:24:16.860 --> 02:24:17.879
Yes, yes.

3036
02:24:17.940 --> 02:24:20.639
But, and I agree with you with Billy, but then he was also

3037
02:24:20.639 --> 02:24:24.180
cantankerous and frustrated with himself and also a man of his own

3038
02:24:24.180 --> 02:24:24.479
times.

3039
02:24:24.540 --> 02:24:30.000
But there this is several shows, just in itself. in what we're

3040
02:24:30.000 --> 02:24:30.420
looking at here.

3041
02:24:30.479 --> 02:24:31.680
There's at least 3 different shows.

3042
02:24:31.739 --> 02:24:34.379
The only thing tying it together is Billy.

3043
02:24:34.680 --> 02:24:37.920
I would also like to make an honourable mention is that we did 1st

3044
02:24:37.920 --> 02:24:39.840
time around to Carol Land, watching her again.

3045
02:24:39.899 --> 02:24:43.799
The tremulousness and timorousness and just terror that she feels

3046
02:24:43.799 --> 02:24:46.979
going through this is exactly what the little person sitting at

3047
02:24:46.979 --> 02:24:49.979
home is supposed to be feeling and would be with the sounds.

3048
02:24:50.040 --> 02:24:51.840
Nothing had ever sounded like this before.

3049
02:24:51.899 --> 02:24:53.639
Deadland looked like this.

3050
02:24:53.700 --> 02:24:54.780
So it was extraordinary.

3051
02:24:54.840 --> 02:24:57.959
I think she actually handles it well in that 1st season.

3052
02:24:58.020 --> 02:25:01.260
She gives what I believe she was expected to give.

3053
02:25:02.040 --> 02:25:03.420
Okay.

3054
02:25:03.479 --> 02:25:06.059
So, one to watch.

3055
02:25:06.479 --> 02:25:08.100
Just one.

3056
02:25:08.159 --> 02:25:09.360
Just one.

3057
02:25:09.479 --> 02:25:11.700
I'm going to say the Romans.

3058
02:25:11.760 --> 02:25:13.139
Oh, yeah.

3059
02:25:13.200 --> 02:25:15.600
It's so funny It is.

3060
02:25:15.600 --> 02:25:17.159
It is good.

3061
02:25:17.219 --> 02:25:19.799
I'll go with you because I really enjoy watching that.

3062
02:25:19.860 --> 02:25:20.579
Wonderful.

3063
02:25:20.639 --> 02:25:22.079
I think I've said this before.

3064
02:25:22.139 --> 02:25:25.200
I showed it in Doctor Who Club to a bunch of, you know, 12, 13

3065
02:25:25.200 --> 02:25:28.979
year olds who thought it was hilarious and enjoyed it on its own

3066
02:25:28.979 --> 02:25:29.399
terms.

3067
02:25:29.459 --> 02:25:31.079
I think it's it's really fun.

3068
02:25:31.319 --> 02:25:37.079
Um, I'm going to choose one that can be bought on a DVD and

3069
02:25:37.079 --> 02:25:38.819
watched because this is kind of a recommendation.

3070
02:25:38.879 --> 02:25:42.239
I am going to choose the Dalek Invasion of Earth.

3071
02:25:42.600 --> 02:25:47.159
If I were if I were choosing an audio, it would be the Daleks

3072
02:25:47.159 --> 02:25:47.819
master plan.

3073
02:25:48.420 --> 02:25:52.440
But yeah, but really Dale Convasion of Earth, it is a good one.

3074
02:25:52.500 --> 02:25:54.360
It showcases the 4 regulars very well.

3075
02:25:54.420 --> 02:25:59.219
I know we find the ending a little hard to take, but on the

3076
02:25:59.219 --> 02:26:01.500
surface, it's a very powerful ending.

3077
02:26:01.559 --> 02:26:03.120
One to avoid.

3078
02:26:03.180 --> 02:26:04.139
Oh, sorry.

3079
02:26:04.200 --> 02:26:04.860
Did you have one?

3080
02:26:04.920 --> 02:26:06.180
Oh, I haven't done my joyous thing.

3081
02:26:06.239 --> 02:26:08.100
Well, obviously you all have to listen to the massacre.

3082
02:26:08.159 --> 02:26:09.719
You just do.

3083
02:26:09.780 --> 02:26:11.639
It's really well reading, really well.

3084
02:26:11.700 --> 02:26:12.360
I really like it.

3085
02:26:12.420 --> 02:26:13.440
Yeah.

3086
02:26:13.500 --> 02:26:16.079
And I think didn't Stan Spooner have a bit of tweaking in that as

3087
02:26:16.079 --> 02:26:18.840
well, because he was behind the scenes. a whole lot of times

3088
02:26:18.840 --> 02:26:19.319
there.

3089
02:26:19.799 --> 02:26:21.479
Sorry, Richard.

3090
02:26:21.540 --> 02:26:22.739
So one to avoid.

3091
02:26:22.799 --> 02:26:24.360
Well, obviously the massacre.

3092
02:26:24.479 --> 02:26:26.100
Doctor.

3093
02:26:26.100 --> 02:26:26.879
Take a drink.

3094
02:26:26.940 --> 02:26:27.540
Take a drink.

3095
02:26:28.020 --> 02:26:30.360
Celestial toy maker.

3096
02:26:30.420 --> 02:26:31.680
Oh, it's awful.

3097
02:26:31.739 --> 02:26:35.100
That is that that is a great nomination.

3098
02:26:35.159 --> 02:26:36.299
The web planet.

3099
02:26:36.540 --> 02:26:38.399
No, that's wonderful.

3100
02:26:38.459 --> 02:26:38.940
We love that.

3101
02:26:39.000 --> 02:26:40.200
Rob will be pleased.

3102
02:26:40.680 --> 02:26:42.780
Only in its current form.

3103
02:26:42.840 --> 02:26:45.659
I haven't got I haven't got up to what we make as a movie.

3104
02:26:46.860 --> 02:26:48.420
Richard.

3105
02:26:48.479 --> 02:26:50.459
Oh, one to avoid.

3106
02:26:51.600 --> 02:26:54.540
No, I'd have to say celestial...

3107
02:26:54.540 --> 02:26:55.860
It's so dull.

3108
02:26:55.920 --> 02:26:59.159
Okay, movie with William Hartnell.

3109
02:26:59.219 --> 02:27:02.159
Well, mainly not Peter Cushion.

3110
02:27:02.219 --> 02:27:02.819
Not Peter Cushing.

3111
02:27:02.879 --> 02:27:03.120
Damn.

3112
02:27:03.180 --> 02:27:04.920
Well, if it was Peter Cushing, of course, I was going to say

3113
02:27:04.920 --> 02:27:06.299
Daleks versus Mecons.

3114
02:27:06.360 --> 02:27:07.139
Yes.

3115
02:27:07.139 --> 02:27:11.819
But as a movie, I'd have to say Dalek's Masterplan.

3116
02:27:11.879 --> 02:27:13.020
I agree.

3117
02:27:13.079 --> 02:27:14.700
That's that's pretty awesome.

3118
02:27:14.819 --> 02:27:16.739
I would also be going with the web planet.

3119
02:27:16.799 --> 02:27:19.979
Is it funny because I was thinking Web Planet as a film because it

3120
02:27:19.979 --> 02:27:21.239
could just be so beautiful.

3121
02:27:21.299 --> 02:27:23.280
Jodorovsky version of it.

3122
02:27:23.280 --> 02:27:28.020
If, you know, if you've seen the Doco on his unrealised making of

3123
02:27:28.020 --> 02:27:31.319
Dune, that you just, yeah, that is...

3124
02:27:31.379 --> 02:27:33.360
I also really love myth makers.

3125
02:27:33.420 --> 02:27:35.100
I just love that story.

3126
02:27:35.159 --> 02:27:36.540
That's good.

3127
02:27:36.600 --> 02:27:40.319
Well, I mean, my other nomination was actually the entire William

3128
02:27:40.319 --> 02:27:41.340
Harten era.

3129
02:27:41.399 --> 02:27:42.899
As a film.

3130
02:27:42.899 --> 02:27:44.100
As films.

3131
02:27:44.159 --> 02:27:47.399
Yeah, with David Bradley and Gemma Powell.

3132
02:27:47.399 --> 02:27:49.020
Yeah, yeah, why not?

3133
02:27:49.079 --> 02:27:51.000
Except for the massacre.

3134
02:27:51.059 --> 02:27:52.860
Please, Nathan.

3135
02:28:12.239 --> 02:28:13.680
All right.

3136
02:28:13.739 --> 02:28:16.500
Have we reached the end of our flight through entirety?

3137
02:28:16.559 --> 02:28:17.100
Oh, is it?

3138
02:28:17.219 --> 02:28:17.760
At the beginning?

3139
02:28:17.879 --> 02:28:19.860
Or is it the beginning?

3140
02:28:19.920 --> 02:28:21.659
So we will be back next year.

3141
02:28:21.719 --> 02:28:22.379
Yes.

3142
02:28:22.379 --> 02:28:23.879
Some months.

3143
02:28:23.879 --> 02:28:25.559
Whether you like it. or not.

3144
02:28:25.860 --> 02:28:29.639
With the 2005 series.

3145
02:28:29.700 --> 02:28:31.739
So it's not quite the end.

3146
02:28:31.860 --> 02:28:36.719
But before we get there, like, you know, at this point, what are

3147
02:28:36.719 --> 02:28:37.020
you feeling?

3148
02:28:37.079 --> 02:28:39.120
What's your feeling of your journey?

3149
02:28:39.180 --> 02:28:41.219
Are we yet to come?

3150
02:28:42.059 --> 02:28:46.500
Well, you know, like this is my 1st time watching the whole show

3151
02:28:46.500 --> 02:28:51.239
through, and it's been fantastic, and having the opportunity to

3152
02:28:51.239 --> 02:28:57.479
chat about it, um, and, uh, you know, the fact that people are

3153
02:28:57.479 --> 02:29:00.239
inexplicably disposed to listen to us.

3154
02:29:01.079 --> 02:29:03.180
Thank you to my own.

3155
02:29:03.239 --> 02:29:03.840
Amazing.

3156
02:29:03.899 --> 02:29:05.159
It is.

3157
02:29:05.219 --> 02:29:05.879
It is.

3158
02:29:05.940 --> 02:29:07.559
So yeah, it's been really something.

3159
02:29:07.620 --> 02:29:09.540
It's been incredible coming in.

3160
02:29:09.600 --> 02:29:14.459
And thank you to the 3 of you and to listeners for welcoming

3161
02:29:14.459 --> 02:29:16.620
welcoming, for welcome.

3162
02:29:16.680 --> 02:29:18.540
What am I trying to say?

3163
02:29:18.600 --> 02:29:19.139
Welcoming.

3164
02:29:19.200 --> 02:29:19.739
Thank you.

3165
02:29:19.799 --> 02:29:21.239
Me in and letting me stay?

3166
02:29:21.600 --> 02:29:23.700
No, I wasn't going to.

3167
02:29:23.819 --> 02:29:25.500
I was going to say...

3168
02:29:25.500 --> 02:29:26.459
I'm getting tank tied.

3169
02:29:26.520 --> 02:29:28.139
I think Matt Smith said an episode.

3170
02:29:28.200 --> 02:29:30.780
We're all different people at different points now, lives, but we

3171
02:29:30.780 --> 02:29:31.620
keep on moving forward.

3172
02:29:31.680 --> 02:29:36.120
And going back and watching this, I'm taken back to different

3173
02:29:36.120 --> 02:29:36.899
points in my life.

3174
02:29:36.959 --> 02:29:40.860
And I come to each era with different experiences and different

3175
02:29:40.860 --> 02:29:44.219
memories and different feelings, and none are less valid than the

3176
02:29:44.219 --> 02:29:44.459
other.

3177
02:29:44.520 --> 02:29:48.239
And, you know, what I give a 10 to in one era, I may not give a 10

3178
02:29:48.239 --> 02:29:51.360
to in another, like different criteria, like you are a flawed

3179
02:29:51.360 --> 02:29:55.440
person and you have different feelings about things, but it's been

3180
02:29:55.440 --> 02:29:59.879
a, it's been a delight to watch the whole thing with you guys and

3181
02:29:59.879 --> 02:30:00.420
discuss it.

3182
02:30:01.500 --> 02:30:03.420
I'm with Nathan.

3183
02:30:03.479 --> 02:30:06.780
This is the 1st tour I've ever been able to sit through it.

3184
02:30:06.780 --> 02:30:11.940
And, yeah, it's just not something you would do lightly, and it's

3185
02:30:11.940 --> 02:30:15.719
equally frustrating and joyful in all the others, but I realised

3186
02:30:15.719 --> 02:30:20.639
like it's like any process of education, it's a, you learn so much

3187
02:30:20.639 --> 02:30:24.959
about the times that you're responding to and viewing and also the

3188
02:30:24.959 --> 02:30:25.920
times we're living in now.

3189
02:30:25.979 --> 02:30:30.120
This is now, unfortunately, all the post-modernists are correct.

3190
02:30:30.180 --> 02:30:30.899
This is a text.

3191
02:30:30.959 --> 02:30:36.059
And it is worthy of study, and it is also worthy of discussion

3192
02:30:36.059 --> 02:30:39.420
simply because of what it else it brings up.

3193
02:30:39.420 --> 02:30:41.579
Far apart from what it is itself.

3194
02:30:41.639 --> 02:30:44.579
It gives us so much more just by being involved in it.

3195
02:30:44.639 --> 02:30:46.020
And by being with all of you.

3196
02:30:46.079 --> 02:30:46.559
So thank you.

3197
02:30:47.159 --> 02:30:53.040
So this idea started drunkenly. drunkenly.

3198
02:30:53.100 --> 02:30:57.899
Yeah, actually in 2012 and um, you guys were around here for one

3199
02:30:57.899 --> 02:31:02.879
of our, one of our cocktail parties and um, we were standing

3200
02:31:02.879 --> 02:31:04.799
around the doctor action figures talking.

3201
02:31:04.799 --> 02:31:10.559
And, I, I, it just struck me that, This is actually really

3202
02:31:10.559 --> 02:31:12.360
interesting what we're talking about.

3203
02:31:12.420 --> 02:31:16.379
I've heard of James should never be allowed to ever sleep.

3204
02:31:16.440 --> 02:31:18.600
Shut up, James, back in your box.

3205
02:31:18.659 --> 02:31:24.299
I've heard of podcasts RA thing, so maybe I should maybe I should

3206
02:31:24.299 --> 02:31:24.840
make one.

3207
02:31:24.840 --> 02:31:27.180
And so 6 months later, that's what we did.

3208
02:31:27.239 --> 02:31:30.239
Um, actually longer than 6 months, I think.

3209
02:31:30.239 --> 02:31:31.319
I think it was over a year.

3210
02:31:31.379 --> 02:31:32.399
I think I parked it for a while.

3211
02:31:32.459 --> 02:31:38.340
Um, And yeah, so everyone who's been on the podcast, including

3212
02:31:38.340 --> 02:31:40.020
James, of course, who was on our stones of blood.

3213
02:31:40.079 --> 02:31:43.680
I asked initially and as the perfect victim, yes.

3214
02:31:43.739 --> 02:31:48.000
As I recall at the time, both Todd and James were kind of a bit

3215
02:31:48.000 --> 02:31:50.879
just a bit shy about doing the idea, you know, about putting

3216
02:31:50.879 --> 02:31:51.600
yourself out there.

3217
02:31:51.659 --> 02:31:54.360
So it became the 3 of us who it was originally.

3218
02:31:54.420 --> 02:31:57.780
And Richard, there was that time where you became rather busy and

3219
02:31:57.780 --> 02:31:58.979
we'd already discussed Todd.

3220
02:31:58.979 --> 02:32:02.639
Todd coming on. that I regenerated to Todd.

3221
02:32:02.700 --> 02:32:03.120
Yes.

3222
02:32:03.180 --> 02:32:04.680
Thank you, Richard. so to speak.

3223
02:32:04.739 --> 02:32:07.020
But, you know, we'd already discussed Todd going on, coming on for

3224
02:32:07.020 --> 02:32:09.840
Colin, because Richard, you said, even at the very beginning, I

3225
02:32:09.840 --> 02:32:11.040
don't know if I can watch Colin.

3226
02:32:11.100 --> 02:32:14.219
And as you said earlier, you haven't watched all of Colin.

3227
02:32:14.280 --> 02:32:17.940
And, you know, that the idea then became James would be a

3228
02:32:17.940 --> 02:32:22.200
substitute for Nathan, if we ever managed to claw Nathan's hand

3229
02:32:22.200 --> 02:32:24.120
off the microphone, which hasn't happened.

3230
02:32:24.120 --> 02:32:25.620
So I apologise, James.

3231
02:32:25.920 --> 02:32:28.979
Um...

3232
02:32:28.979 --> 02:32:35.280
As for myself personally, what I have discovered is I can set out

3233
02:32:35.280 --> 02:32:37.500
and complete a project for once.

3234
02:32:37.559 --> 02:32:42.059
You know, I've started I've started 17 novels and I've never got

3235
02:32:42.059 --> 02:32:43.020
beyond chapter one.

3236
02:32:43.079 --> 02:32:46.379
You look at work or you look at study that we try and do.

3237
02:32:46.440 --> 02:32:48.840
It's very tough to get through anything.

3238
02:32:48.899 --> 02:32:54.600
And, you know, then you get so, and to do it with such wonderful

3239
02:32:54.600 --> 02:32:57.180
insimpatico company.

3240
02:32:57.180 --> 02:33:02.579
And, and, you know, people who each of you and James over on

3241
02:33:02.579 --> 02:33:08.760
Bondfinger, who share my passion enough to set aside days of your

3242
02:33:08.760 --> 02:33:11.819
life to do this with me.

3243
02:33:11.879 --> 02:33:17.340
I'm incredibly grateful for for people who have then downloaded it

3244
02:33:17.340 --> 02:33:22.260
shared it, listened to us, given feedback, +and negative, because

3245
02:33:22.260 --> 02:33:24.659
we've received negative feedback, which we have folded into the

3246
02:33:24.659 --> 02:33:25.559
show to improve it.

3247
02:33:25.799 --> 02:33:28.979
Um, And a one star rating.

3248
02:33:29.040 --> 02:33:30.180
And a one star rating.

3249
02:33:30.239 --> 02:33:30.780
Oh really?

3250
02:33:30.840 --> 02:33:34.920
Yeah, our very 1st iTunes rating was one star from someone...

3251
02:33:34.979 --> 02:33:36.719
I am I am Frank.

3252
02:33:36.719 --> 02:33:37.500
I am Frank.

3253
02:33:37.559 --> 02:33:40.559
I am friends, but it's not friend of the podcast, nor but friends

3254
02:33:40.559 --> 02:33:41.280
because he's wonderful.

3255
02:33:41.399 --> 02:33:45.120
With a one-star review with that was bad, and that was our 1st

3256
02:33:45.120 --> 02:33:45.840
review.

3257
02:33:46.079 --> 02:33:48.540
But to have...

3258
02:33:48.540 --> 02:33:52.200
But to have all of that support from the people here in this room

3259
02:33:52.200 --> 02:33:54.420
from my partner, Rod, who is currently in the next room.

3260
02:33:54.479 --> 02:33:57.479
With James.

3261
02:33:57.479 --> 02:34:03.719
From James over on Bondfinger and from the listeners, has it's

3262
02:34:03.719 --> 02:34:04.860
been really life affirming.

3263
02:34:04.920 --> 02:34:07.379
And, you know, we've alluded in this podcast.

3264
02:34:07.440 --> 02:34:09.899
The last few months have been very hard for us on a personal level

3265
02:34:09.899 --> 02:34:12.540
with what's happening politically, and that extends back years

3266
02:34:12.540 --> 02:34:15.000
with the fight we've been having with our government.

3267
02:34:15.059 --> 02:34:18.360
So to have this positive experience.

3268
02:34:18.780 --> 02:34:23.040
In my life, in our lives has been wonderful.

3269
02:34:23.100 --> 02:34:28.079
And there are people I have met through this online that when I go

3270
02:34:28.079 --> 02:34:30.780
off travelling next year, I hope to meet up with for a drink.

3271
02:34:30.840 --> 02:34:34.200
Um, I won't I won't name names because I'm bound to forget

3272
02:34:34.200 --> 02:34:34.559
someone.

3273
02:34:34.620 --> 02:34:42.420
Um, Yeah, and um, look, I'm gonna make an announcement at this

3274
02:34:42.420 --> 02:34:42.780
point.

3275
02:34:43.559 --> 02:34:49.260
Um, we will be coming back for the new series, but I will be

3276
02:34:49.260 --> 02:34:50.819
stepping down from running the podcast.

3277
02:34:51.120 --> 02:34:54.180
Nathan will be taking over running the podcast.

3278
02:34:54.239 --> 02:34:56.459
I will still be in it occasionally.

3279
02:34:56.579 --> 02:35:00.959
But I'm talking one or 2 stories a season.

3280
02:35:01.020 --> 02:35:04.379
And my reasoning for that is.

3281
02:35:05.040 --> 02:35:10.559
The classic series, and we've all discussed this, was there for me

3282
02:35:10.559 --> 02:35:13.680
as a kid, and so it has those memories.

3283
02:35:13.739 --> 02:35:18.420
Whereas the new series which I enjoy, is there for me as an adult

3284
02:35:18.420 --> 02:35:21.780
and it really, I made this decision a long time ago, and and

3285
02:35:21.780 --> 02:35:22.860
informed the crew.

3286
02:35:22.920 --> 02:35:27.479
Um, But it really came to a head when I was writing for a book

3287
02:35:27.479 --> 02:35:31.799
called Hating to Love, and I was to write about 4 classic and 2

3288
02:35:31.799 --> 02:35:32.760
new series stories.

3289
02:35:32.879 --> 02:35:35.280
And the 4 classic ones just tripped off the keyboard.

3290
02:35:35.340 --> 02:35:37.260
And the 2 new series stories.

3291
02:35:37.319 --> 02:35:41.760
I just couldn't muster it and it's, It's, There's a layer

3292
02:35:41.760 --> 02:35:42.180
missing.

3293
02:35:42.239 --> 02:35:43.620
There's not my experience as a child.

3294
02:35:43.680 --> 02:35:45.000
There's just my experience as an adult.

3295
02:35:45.479 --> 02:35:49.799
And also another part of it is, and I've been discussing this with

3296
02:35:49.799 --> 02:35:51.000
Nathan, who's taking over.

3297
02:35:51.059 --> 02:35:54.479
For a long time, we've discussed having guests on the podcast and

3298
02:35:54.479 --> 02:35:58.079
part of my classic series experiences, whenever I've experienced

3299
02:35:58.079 --> 02:36:02.280
it with someone before the internet came about, it was in the same

3300
02:36:02.280 --> 02:36:05.040
room and that's something I wanted for flight through entirety.

3301
02:36:05.100 --> 02:36:09.719
So as we move into the new series, there will be more guests.

3302
02:36:09.719 --> 02:36:13.680
And that's not necessarily because I was resistant to guests, but

3303
02:36:13.680 --> 02:36:16.620
I just wanted that live feeling of people together.

3304
02:36:16.680 --> 02:36:20.280
But times change and so must we.

3305
02:36:21.120 --> 02:36:26.639
So, um, Once again, I'd like to say, thank you to the 3 people in

3306
02:36:26.639 --> 02:36:27.120
this room.

3307
02:36:27.180 --> 02:36:28.079
Thank you to James.

3308
02:36:28.139 --> 02:36:31.680
Thank you especially to Rod, who puts up with me taking like half

3309
02:36:31.680 --> 02:36:35.040
of Sunday off, which is our day together to edit an episode of Fly

3310
02:36:35.040 --> 02:36:35.639
Through Entirety.

3311
02:36:35.700 --> 02:36:36.959
Um.

3312
02:36:37.620 --> 02:36:41.459
And thank you all very much for listening at home.

3313
02:36:42.120 --> 02:36:46.739
Can I just say I want to think on a personal level both yourself

3314
02:36:46.739 --> 02:36:50.760
and Nathan for the amount of work that you guys have done over

3315
02:36:50.760 --> 02:36:54.899
this time, you know, the editing, the website, the promotion, and

3316
02:36:54.899 --> 02:36:57.360
this is out there, they just do an incredible job.

3317
02:36:57.420 --> 02:36:58.680
I could not do it.

3318
02:36:58.739 --> 02:37:02.459
So from the bottom of my bottom of my heart, thank you, Brendan

3319
02:37:02.459 --> 02:37:03.420
and thank you, Nathan.

3320
02:37:04.139 --> 02:37:07.200
And, well, thank you, Todd.

3321
02:37:07.260 --> 02:37:12.059
Something I would like to bring up just briefly is what I've

3322
02:37:12.059 --> 02:37:14.879
always thought each of us bring, and I don't know if I've

3323
02:37:14.879 --> 02:37:19.139
necessarily vocalised this, but Richard, your knowledge of the

3324
02:37:19.139 --> 02:37:25.440
history, the culture, film, literature, the stuff you make up

3325
02:37:25.440 --> 02:37:27.299
James, expressionism.

3326
02:37:27.360 --> 02:37:29.280
I'm glad you acknowledge that.

3327
02:37:29.280 --> 02:37:30.899
Doctor Who facts.

3328
02:37:31.020 --> 02:37:39.659
Our show would our show would not have the depth of knowledge. and

3329
02:37:39.659 --> 02:37:42.180
depth of thought without you.

3330
02:37:42.239 --> 02:37:46.739
Or the X certificate that we...

3331
02:37:46.799 --> 02:37:47.760
Oh, thank you.

3332
02:37:47.819 --> 02:37:51.540
Doctor Who's so much more than, you know, you can have a whole

3333
02:37:51.540 --> 02:37:53.940
room full of your lovely friends and you'll still find out new

3334
02:37:53.940 --> 02:37:57.479
things about them as much as about the show. itself.

3335
02:37:57.540 --> 02:38:00.000
I guess it's what I mean when I say it's a collective experience

3336
02:38:00.000 --> 02:38:01.799
bigger than the sum of its parts.

3337
02:38:01.860 --> 02:38:04.260
It's about the people that are involved with it.

3338
02:38:04.319 --> 02:38:05.280
It's always been a living thing.

3339
02:38:05.760 --> 02:38:07.920
Which brings me to Todd.

3340
02:38:09.719 --> 02:38:14.639
And Todd, it has been such a pleasure to hear from you how Doctor

3341
02:38:14.639 --> 02:38:18.659
Who changed your life then, and how being in the podcast has

3342
02:38:18.659 --> 02:38:19.500
changed your life now.

3343
02:38:19.559 --> 02:38:22.500
And something I've always loved that you bring to the podcast

3344
02:38:22.500 --> 02:38:26.040
aside from knowledge of the ratings and how the show went down, is

3345
02:38:26.040 --> 02:38:31.260
how willing you are to be open about the personal effect it's had

3346
02:38:31.260 --> 02:38:31.500
on you.

3347
02:38:31.620 --> 02:38:35.219
Because I think for a lot of our listeners, they've had a similar

3348
02:38:35.219 --> 02:38:35.940
experience.

3349
02:38:36.000 --> 02:38:36.840
So thank you.

3350
02:38:38.639 --> 02:38:40.319
And you.

3351
02:38:40.680 --> 02:38:43.139
I could look in another direction.

3352
02:38:43.260 --> 02:38:49.620
Um, yeah, Todd touched on the fact that Nathan does so much.

3353
02:38:49.680 --> 02:38:50.399
He does the website.

3354
02:38:50.520 --> 02:38:54.299
Nathan started helping out with the editing around the Peter Davis

3355
02:38:54.299 --> 02:38:57.600
era, which is where I was thinking about quitting.

3356
02:38:57.659 --> 02:39:01.139
And that's the reason Nathan stepped up is that I was just going

3357
02:39:01.139 --> 02:39:01.559
to walk away.

3358
02:39:01.620 --> 02:39:07.680
Um, and he's done fantastic job taking over the editing and

3359
02:39:07.680 --> 02:39:10.979
there's been, as you've heard, because whoever edits the episode

3360
02:39:10.979 --> 02:39:14.520
does the, um, the voiceover at the end.

3361
02:39:14.579 --> 02:39:16.739
As you've heard, there's been periods where it hasn't been

3362
02:39:16.739 --> 02:39:17.399
alternating.

3363
02:39:17.459 --> 02:39:20.040
It's been Nathan doing all of them because I've just said to him

3364
02:39:20.040 --> 02:39:21.420
look, right now, I just can't.

3365
02:39:21.659 --> 02:39:26.700
Um, and you know, if I've suddenly thrown an episode at him saying

3366
02:39:26.700 --> 02:39:28.739
no, I'm too busy this week, he's never complained.

3367
02:39:28.739 --> 02:39:35.040
And Um, just bouncing ideas about the podcast.

3368
02:39:35.100 --> 02:39:37.799
And when I decided I was moving on and he asked if he could take

3369
02:39:37.799 --> 02:39:38.100
over.

3370
02:39:38.159 --> 02:39:39.420
It's been really strange.

3371
02:39:39.479 --> 02:39:41.579
Nathan keeps coming to me and saying, oh, I'm thinking about doing

3372
02:39:41.579 --> 02:39:41.879
this.

3373
02:39:41.940 --> 02:39:42.600
Is that okay?

3374
02:39:42.659 --> 02:39:45.180
And it's like, there's a reason I'm giving it away.

3375
02:39:45.239 --> 02:39:46.860
I don't want to have to worry about that.

3376
02:39:46.920 --> 02:39:49.920
Um, editing the other 2 hours.

3377
02:39:51.899 --> 02:39:54.780
Speak to yourself, Richard.

3378
02:39:54.780 --> 02:39:56.700
I have no idea how much was cut.

3379
02:39:58.799 --> 02:40:03.479
Yeah, so pretty much without Nathan, I would not have been here

3380
02:40:03.479 --> 02:40:05.040
for the last 50 episodes.

3381
02:40:05.159 --> 02:40:08.280
So, thank you, Nathan.

3382
02:40:08.340 --> 02:40:11.940
Um, yeah, so what is there left to say?

3383
02:40:13.079 --> 02:40:17.040
Flight through entirety will return.

3384
02:40:18.239 --> 02:40:22.319
In a few months, we will be having some commentaries here and

3385
02:40:22.319 --> 02:40:22.559
there.

3386
02:40:22.620 --> 02:40:27.780
We haven't recorded the Colin commentary or the McCoy commentary.

3387
02:40:27.840 --> 02:40:28.440
Or the Davison.

3388
02:40:28.500 --> 02:40:31.319
We will be recording those when Nathan gets back from his trip.

3389
02:40:31.379 --> 02:40:34.139
So we will have some sporadic releases between now and then. and

3390
02:40:34.139 --> 02:40:38.159
Flight through entirety will return in a regenerated form with a

3391
02:40:38.159 --> 02:40:40.020
new theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

3392
02:40:41.819 --> 02:40:45.540
But gentlemen, does anyone have anything they'd like to say before

3393
02:40:45.540 --> 02:40:46.079
we close out?

3394
02:40:47.040 --> 02:40:49.319
Have a drink, dealers.

3395
02:40:49.379 --> 02:40:50.340
Have a drink, dear listener.

3396
02:40:50.459 --> 02:40:53.940
And for the final time from me.

3397
02:40:54.659 --> 02:40:57.420
Thank you very much for listening, good night.

3398
02:40:57.479 --> 02:40:58.680
Good night.

3399
02:40:58.739 --> 02:41:00.299
See you soon.

3400
02:41:00.360 --> 02:41:01.680
Thank you everyone.

3401
02:42:58.739 --> 02:43:01.860
That was flight through entirety with Todd Bealby, Nathan

3402
02:43:01.860 --> 02:43:04.379
Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

3403
02:43:04.440 --> 02:43:07.139
Theme arrangements by Cameron Lamb, logo designed by Anthony

3404
02:43:07.139 --> 02:43:07.860
Wells.

3405
02:43:07.920 --> 02:43:11.639
This episode, thank you all for listening and good night, was

3406
02:43:11.639 --> 02:43:14.040
recorded on October 28, 2017.

3407
02:43:14.219 --> 02:43:17.159
Flight through entirety will return in 2018.

3408
02:43:17.340 --> 02:43:20.819
Remember ages ago when we had a caption competition, well, the

3409
02:43:20.819 --> 02:43:23.639
winner was Tristan Alfaro, and Richard will be in touch with you

3410
02:43:23.639 --> 02:43:25.680
Tristan, in order to deliver your prize.

3411
02:43:25.739 --> 02:43:29.159
Stay tuned for the usual background chat, and we'll see you next

3412
02:43:29.159 --> 02:43:29.399
year.

3413
02:43:30.239 --> 02:43:32.399
Yep, right, new break.

3414
02:43:32.520 --> 02:43:34.799
Can I take the microphone?

3415
02:43:34.860 --> 02:43:35.879
Yes.

3416
02:43:35.940 --> 02:43:36.780
No, you need to.

3417
02:43:37.200 --> 02:43:41.340
You need, you need these to be able to. we okay?

3418
02:43:41.399 --> 02:43:41.879
We're okay.

3419
02:43:41.940 --> 02:43:44.579
Look, it's the final episode. runs a bit long.

3420
02:43:45.719 --> 02:43:49.920
I did actually want to also cite state of decay because I adored

3421
02:43:49.920 --> 02:43:50.639
it at the time.

3422
02:43:50.700 --> 02:43:52.079
I just loved it.

3423
02:43:52.139 --> 02:43:54.180
When everything comes back, do that as normal.

3424
02:43:54.360 --> 02:43:54.600
Did you?

3425
02:43:54.659 --> 02:43:58.379
I just, it was so, this is what we've been wanting to see for so

3426
02:43:58.379 --> 02:43:58.559
long.

3427
02:43:58.860 --> 02:44:00.479
Elegant.

3428
02:44:00.840 --> 02:44:03.719
That's also so elegant.

3429
02:44:03.780 --> 02:44:07.079
It's, and it's, we have this collective thing of Johnny Byrne

3430
02:44:07.079 --> 02:44:07.920
terrible, terrible, terrible.

3431
02:44:07.979 --> 02:44:09.239
Actually, look at what he did.

3432
02:44:09.299 --> 02:44:10.979
Look at the early stuff he did.

3433
02:44:10.979 --> 02:44:13.559
And his 1999 scripts aren't that bad either.

3434
02:44:13.620 --> 02:44:14.340
The early ones anyway.

3435
02:44:15.000 --> 02:44:17.040
We are almost done.

3436
02:44:17.219 --> 02:44:20.399
As we travel and time to come.

3437
02:44:20.459 --> 02:44:23.219
I think you've done a real good job with this job.

3438
02:44:23.280 --> 02:44:24.840
Well, you've done a gorgeous job, Tom.

3439
02:44:24.959 --> 02:44:28.920
We can't do sort of small merry void again for all those years

3440
02:44:28.920 --> 02:44:30.180
because we've done them all already.

3441
02:44:30.239 --> 02:44:33.000
You know, you needed to ask us things that we'd different.

3442
02:44:33.120 --> 02:44:34.860
I can't see it.

3443
02:44:34.920 --> 02:44:38.280
I've wondered how you're going to do it and going back, let's...

3444
02:44:38.340 --> 02:44:39.360
Very, very well.

3445
02:44:42.420 --> 02:44:43.739
No, we've never done it.

3446
02:44:43.739 --> 02:44:45.239
Yeah, you know, we couldn't...

3447
02:44:45.239 --> 02:44:47.819
But you had that one where I said we had to get Tony because the

3448
02:44:47.819 --> 02:44:48.780
ratings were playing.

3449
02:44:48.840 --> 02:44:50.459
It should be that one when I said that.

3450
02:44:50.520 --> 02:44:52.379
We kept listen to the ball.

3451
02:44:52.440 --> 02:44:52.979
What did he say?

3452
02:44:53.040 --> 02:44:54.899
It was just off the cuff, but I listened to us.

3453
02:44:54.959 --> 02:44:57.780
I've been going back listening to our ones just randomly and I've

3454
02:44:57.780 --> 02:45:00.600
heard the one where I can't remember which one it is when we're

3455
02:45:00.600 --> 02:45:01.440
talking and I'm sitting here.

3456
02:45:01.500 --> 02:45:05.040
It's one when I'm just backed up in you just a year and I just say

3457
02:45:05.040 --> 02:45:07.799
well, you're as a natty or a program game.

3458
02:45:07.860 --> 02:45:10.739
We had to retarded because I'm raising this sort of podcast for

3459
02:45:10.739 --> 02:45:11.219
play.

3460
02:45:12.239 --> 02:45:14.879
And I thought, God, it was funny.

3461
02:45:15.840 --> 02:45:17.940
It's a nice moment.

3462
02:45:18.000 --> 02:45:19.559
Would you like a looking guy?

3463
02:45:19.620 --> 02:45:20.639
I don't know where I was.

3464
02:45:20.700 --> 02:45:23.219
Because I always edit it.

3465
02:45:23.280 --> 02:45:26.520
It's about 10 minutes per hour.

3466
02:45:26.520 --> 02:45:27.540
Yeah, still slow.

3467
02:45:27.600 --> 02:45:29.399
Maybe a bit less than that.

3468
02:45:29.459 --> 02:45:34.200
And then, Then I listen to it again while I'm writing the show

3469
02:45:34.200 --> 02:45:39.420
notes and anything that I hear where it's kind of like, Can I fix

3470
02:45:39.420 --> 02:45:44.399
that terrible edit?

3471
02:45:44.399 --> 02:45:45.899
Was that terrible at it?

3472
02:45:45.959 --> 02:45:48.899
We'll get a lot of inquiry dust being over the flight.

3473
02:45:48.959 --> 02:45:49.620
Was that us?

3474
02:45:49.680 --> 02:45:50.879
Okay, um.

3475
02:45:51.059 --> 02:45:57.360
Yes, that's for you, darling, and there's tea in the pot. pot Is

3476
02:45:57.360 --> 02:45:58.440
anyone else having some?

3477
02:45:58.440 --> 02:45:59.579
Yours is one chipped.

3478
02:45:59.760 --> 02:46:02.579
It's at work, it's much loved.

3479
02:46:02.579 --> 02:46:04.500
Season 15.

3480
02:46:06.360 --> 02:46:08.760
I use it as a doorstop.

3481
02:46:11.819 --> 02:46:14.219
I'm actually recording this.