WEBVTT

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This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 12:33:29

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast recorded live from several places

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beginning with S. I'm Nathan.

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I'm James And I'm Stephen.

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It's the year 2012.

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We've just materialised in Elon Musk's basement, and there's

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nothing to see here but the discarded pieces of all our hopes and

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dreams, which can only mean one thing, the 6th episode of the new

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series, Dalek.

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So there's a real sense in which this is a kind of new beginning

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for the series, I think.

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We've sort of laid the ground rules with rose, and then, you know

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we've gone into the past and into the future, and then we've been

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back at Earth to catch up on sort of Jackie and Mickey and

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things.

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But now it's kind of like we could go anywhere.

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This is something completely new.

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It's off the hook.

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Yeah.

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Yeah. sort of everything's been done and set up.

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And I think too, because all the publicity had the dalek in it.

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I think a lot of new people would be tuning in.

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And it's very deliberately been set up to not have any baggage.

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There's no real references, the previous episodes of the series.

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It's just a, it's another episode one.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I think you're right, Nathan.

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In terms of Doctor Hula itself.

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This is a massively important story.

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I think this is where new who really makes its own mark.

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For all the reasons that you've mentioned in terms of the way that

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it sets it up, and this is the 6th episode of the series.

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And it sort of addresses the questions of its own identity and

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basically establishes new who on its own terms in terms of both as

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a continuation of the story that we saw over the 1st 26 years, but

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also in a totally new way of telling that story as well.

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You know, here it is, the doctor confronts his mortal nemeses, the

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dialects, or a singular dalek, at least.

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And I just think it's exactly what series one needed at that point

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in time.

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And it's wonderful.

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Yeah, it really is something.

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I think it was kind of David Whittaker, who really kind of was the

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one who 1st realised that the Daleks were kind of like a mythical

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enemy to the doctor.

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And, you know, fans kind of like to think that the doctor isn't

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really the doctor until he's encountered the Daleks and we're all

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sort of very conscious that each doctor gets to encounter the

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dialects once on TV, apart from number eight.

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And this, I think, is so very definitely set up as a way of

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creating a real mythical opponent to the doctor.

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I think you're right in the sense that we have like a David

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Whittaker, Whitticarian sort of conception of the Daleks.

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And I think what we see here is kind of like the Daleks as we see

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them in, say, power of the Daleks, where they're scheming and

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utterly brilliant.

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But also, um, evil of the dialect is drawn upon as well, where you

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got the human factor with roses touch, essentially sort of

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corrupting the, the dalek DNA and it becomes half human as well.

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I love that they've leaned more so on that conception of the

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Daleks than maybe the Terry Nation kind of runaround conception of

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the Dialects, which we get a little bit of, and we might talk

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about that later on.

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But I think it's that sort of reimagining of the Daleks for the

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21st century, that's really beautifully done here.

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And I think too, that given that so many of the members of the

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audience were people who were kind of aware of the Daleks from

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Doctor Who's 1st run, but probably weren't sort of big fans, it

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has a lot of kind of myths to dispel, you know, that Daleks can't

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climb stairs, that they can't really see you as they trundle

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past.

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So this is, and it may be apocryphal. maybe just, you know, fan

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law, but apparently Rob Shimman talked to his wife when he was

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writing the script for Dalek, and he said to her, what's so crap

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about the Dalek experience?

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what do you see is the main sort of things that make the Daleks

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really naff?

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And he wrote them down.

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And then he deliberately inverted them when they were writing the

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script.

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So, yeah, that, oh, that sync plunger, you know, what does it do?

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use it to break someone's skull.

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They can't go upstairs.

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Yes, remembrance, we know.

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Like they very deliberately invoke that.

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Oh, they can't see behind them.

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Its head can turn 360 degrees.

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Um, so that um, was, you know, that was a very, very forefront in

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their mind.

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They were saying, well, this is what these characters can do.

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This is what they were always supposed to be.

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And they're super killers.

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Like that dialect kills, you know, like 100s of people with like 3

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shots.

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You know, like he shoots the, you know, the sprinkler and then he

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just electrocutes everyone.

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And the doctor yells at Van Stanten and says 1000000 people all

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dead.

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That's what's going to happen if it escapes. and it's just one

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dalek.

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And so many Doctor Who stories with Daleks in them have Daleks in

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the plural in the title.

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And so having a singular dialect and really kind of lampshading

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that by calling it dalek singular is so clever.

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And then making it like a carnage.

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Yeah.

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Rather fabulously.

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Well, I think it's rather famous.

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You know what the working titles for this story were?

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No, go on.

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One of them was Return of the Daleks, which isn't factually

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accurate.

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And the other was creature of lies.

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Which I kind of, I kind of like.

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I wish I wish they had actually gone with that.

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I think another one, which was used.

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We'll get to that later.

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No, let's do it.

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Let's do it We'll talk about the kind of the antecedents of the

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story because one of the where he titles was Absence of the Dies.

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Because as is now kind of well known, Terry Nation's estate has

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the rights to the Daleks.

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They're not owned by the BBC.

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And so they needed to get the estate's permission to use the

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Daleks.

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And for a while it didn't look like they were going to be able

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to.

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And Rob Shearman found himself having to write several versions of

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the story.

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And yes, and there was the one that, you know, now we all know

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because I think we've all read the writer's tale, haven't we?

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Um, it became the Toclophane in series 3.

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And like, I think they, I don't think they changed much of that

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like that whole concept of them being balls of like, you know

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little human mutants from the far, far end of time.

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Yeah, yeah, that spoke like children.

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That was in this version of Absence of the Daleks.

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And then they went, hey, that's a great idea.

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Let's use it the end of series three.

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Yeah, but eventually they, you know, do get nation's permission

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and I think they end up having to include the Darwin.

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We'd think given who Nathan's estate's ancient is.

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Oh, who's that?

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Well, um, feral virtue.

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Oh, really?

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So that's Stephen Moffat's mother-in-law.

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Look, I mean, I, I, could you misremembering that?

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But I thought I thought that his estate, they were still

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represented by her.

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I could have that wrong.

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Right.

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We'll edit all that out.

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Along with all of your things.

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Yeah.

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And then you'll re-record the good bits.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I always do.

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I think, though, you needed to use Dalek as a title because it's

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almost as a, it's kind of like a back to basics, you know

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unplugged album for the Daleks in many ways.

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You know, you only get the one dalek, but it's also a way of

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telling Dalek stories, again, that don't rely on or place Davros

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at the centre of them.

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And I think, you know, we needed to have Dalek there to sort of

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you know, as you say, beat up the publicity and the sort of

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awareness that this was Doctor Who and it was coming back and so

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were the Daleks and that's really important.

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But I think in terms of the way in which the Daleks are portrayed

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here. really important because, you know, it's like, again, that

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21st century reimagining that it's kind of like they've had 26

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years of the Daleks and then 16 years to think about what did work

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and what didn't work, what they got right and what they got wrong

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and reinvented in that way.

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I think this does it really well.

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I mean, I could go on here and to stop me if at this point I

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shouldn't.

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No, no, go on.

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So I think we see like the Daleks are on the par of the time lords

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you know, there's reference to the great time war and they were

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the 2 sort of antagonists in it.

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So it sort of elevates the dialects as equal to the the time lords

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who are, you know, the most powerful, you know, race in in the

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Doctor Who universe, if you like.

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But, you know, you know, we had all the imagining of us.

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As you said, you know, the toilet plunger and the way that it can

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turn around quicker than the QE 2 after all, and, you know, it can

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do a 1000-0000000 calculations every second.

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You know, it's absolutely impenetrable because it's got like a

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force field around it.

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It can climb stairs.

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Like all of that needed to be there, I think, because it reinvents

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the Daleks in a way that makes it a credible threat for the 21st

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century rather than, you know, sort of shuffling down corridors

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and not being able to see outside a sort of peripheral vision sort

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of thing, like you get in some 70s runaround stories.

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I think that's, you know, it does that really well and he needed

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to.

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I also think too, that it makes it personal as well, because we've

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had the time war, the last great time war kind of teased for

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episodes, and we've seen the consequences of it in rows and in the

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unquiet dead.

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Um, you know, it's been a thing and a thing that we've been

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wondering about and now here's where we find out who it involves.

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And so you've got the doctor who hates the Daleks, not just

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because, you know, he encountered them on a planet in the middle

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of a mercury swamp or whatever, at some point in the past, but

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because they killed all of his people and they put him in a

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position.

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We discover where he had to wipe them all out.

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Like, you know, they made him a genocide.

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And so I don't think we've ever seen anything quite like the

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doctor's reaction to the Dalek when he 1st realises what it is

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where he's literally foaming at the mouth, isn't he?

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And he mocks it and he tries to kill it.

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And look, just last week in Aliens of London, we had him in 2

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minds about whether he should be, you know, taking Rose's life

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into his own hands, um, putting her at risk to, possibly save the

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human race from the sort of, I cannot.

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I cannot say Sloveen.

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Oh my god, what sort of Doctor Who fan am I?

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Um, and then this week he, he, like the threat of the Dalek

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basically leads him to, you know, like let her die.

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Yeah, he sacrificed.

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He's willing to, he's willing to sacrifice her.

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Yeah, yeah. to stop the Dalek.

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He, like, you know, the threat of the Dalek in, in this universe

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because of what happened in the time war, because of how scarred

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he is as a character, his new best friend who he wasn't willing to

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kill, you know, to let it be killed last week, is just thrown away

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because Dixie has to save, save the planet from this Dalek.

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It's uh, sort of, you know, dramatically shows the threat.

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I have to say that that, for me, that's one of the stories, weak

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moments because then he just goes, oh, well, screw it.

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Okay.

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I'll let it lift. you know.

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And I think they just about sell it.

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He's had the opportunity to make the decision once and that's as

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many times as you can possibly bear to make that decision.

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But, you know, it's a huge dramatic moment that is almost

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immediately undermined by him saying, oh, well, I'll open the door

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after.

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Well, that would be like the episode one into episode 2

244
00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:30.899
Cliffhanger.

245
00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:33.179
Yeah, I guess so.

246
00:12:33.659 --> 00:12:36.120
Okay, I'll open the door then.

247
00:12:37.139 --> 00:12:39.600
I'm not so sure though, Nathan.

248
00:12:39.659 --> 00:12:41.879
Like, it becomes very quickly where, you know, he's able to sort

249
00:12:41.879 --> 00:12:44.340
of say, yeah, okay, I'll sacrifice Rose and then, you know, he has

250
00:12:44.340 --> 00:12:45.659
that 2nd chance and he saves her.

251
00:12:45.720 --> 00:12:49.559
But there's something sort of metaphorical about the way in which

252
00:12:49.559 --> 00:12:52.320
you know, you put the doctor up against the Dalek, and the doctor

253
00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:55.379
becomes more like the Dalek, and through rows, the Dalek becomes

254
00:12:55.379 --> 00:12:56.159
more of a human.

255
00:12:56.220 --> 00:13:00.240
There's that sort of wonderful cross, you know, the paths that the

256
00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:03.539
2 characters sort of take along this particular story.

257
00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:05.399
I think the way that that's done is really quite beautiful.

258
00:13:05.460 --> 00:13:08.220
You know, the doctor sort of descends into hell, whereas the Dalek

259
00:13:08.220 --> 00:13:10.860
sort of ascends, you know, up to level one and into the light

260
00:13:10.860 --> 00:13:13.200
before sort of coming to sacrifice itself.

261
00:13:13.259 --> 00:13:16.379
I don't know, I think I think he kind of works dramatically there

262
00:13:16.379 --> 00:13:16.679
for me.

263
00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:19.019
I agree with you about that.

264
00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:23.580
I do think that having Rose and the doctor split up, not just so

265
00:13:23.580 --> 00:13:27.419
that they can sort of explore different parts of this exciting new

266
00:13:27.419 --> 00:13:31.440
world they find themselves in, but so that they can have different

267
00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:34.860
responses to the dalek that aren't kind of cross-pollinated.

268
00:13:34.919 --> 00:13:37.200
You know, Rose doesn't know what a dalek is.

269
00:13:37.259 --> 00:13:37.799
Exactly.

270
00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:40.679
And all she sees is someone being tortured.

271
00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:44.759
And like, I think it's telling that it's set in America too.

272
00:13:44.879 --> 00:13:50.460
Just, you know, after the abuses in the in the Iraq war. that, you

273
00:13:50.460 --> 00:13:53.820
know, torturing prisoners is is something that...

274
00:13:53.820 --> 00:13:55.740
Well, that an equal...

275
00:13:55.799 --> 00:14:01.019
Yeah, well, Abu Garai, in Iraq itself, where there were famous

276
00:14:01.019 --> 00:14:06.000
photos only, you know, very briefly before this, of prisoners

277
00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:06.659
being tortured.

278
00:14:07.139 --> 00:14:12.539
You know, the British Board of Film classification gave us the 12

279
00:14:12.539 --> 00:14:14.700
certificate because of the torture scenes.

280
00:14:14.759 --> 00:14:18.659
Yeah, specifically the scenes of the doctor torturing the Darlin.

281
00:14:18.779 --> 00:14:19.620
Yeah, yeah.

282
00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:23.159
I think they would set, you know, turn the hero into into a

283
00:14:23.159 --> 00:14:23.580
sadist.

284
00:14:23.639 --> 00:14:27.059
Yeah, there was some talk about giving it an M rating here.

285
00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:31.139
I don't know if they'd ever eventuated, but it is darker than

286
00:14:31.139 --> 00:14:32.220
Eccleston's gone.

287
00:14:32.279 --> 00:14:35.700
And again, he's still finding his feet here.

288
00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:37.919
There are bits that I don't think he pulls off completely, but

289
00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:42.000
certainly that bit where he confronts the Dalek is absolutely

290
00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:42.720
compelling.

291
00:14:42.840 --> 00:14:48.240
Apparently, as written, the scene where he initially confronts the

292
00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:56.399
Dalek, was written by Rob Sherman as more him mocking it, and

293
00:14:56.399 --> 00:15:04.200
belittling it, but not responding to it so aggressively. and

294
00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:09.179
Eccleston imbued it with all of the anger and and seething

295
00:15:09.179 --> 00:15:09.659
hatred.

296
00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:11.100
It's so amazing, isn't it?

297
00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:12.960
Because we're used to the doctor mocking his enemies.

298
00:15:13.019 --> 00:15:14.399
That's one of the things that he does.

299
00:15:14.460 --> 00:15:16.980
He laughs at people who are evil.

300
00:15:17.039 --> 00:15:20.159
But when he's saying, you know, poor little thing to the dalek

301
00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:22.320
he's really taunting it, it's not funny.

302
00:15:22.379 --> 00:15:24.600
It's not something that we can laugh along with him.

303
00:15:24.659 --> 00:15:29.940
He is really, really quite, quite emotionally damaged.

304
00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:31.740
Yeah. and abusive.

305
00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:34.080
But that makes sense, though, given the trajectory of the

306
00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:37.080
character, like what we know of it since in terms of the time war

307
00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:40.259
and how he's the survivor and sort of lone survivor and has that

308
00:15:40.259 --> 00:15:43.320
survivor's guilt and has also done some pretty terrible things in

309
00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:44.759
the not too distant past.

310
00:15:44.820 --> 00:15:46.440
And Eccleston himself.

311
00:15:46.500 --> 00:15:48.840
I mean, if there is one actor to have played the role, who is

312
00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:52.379
capable of that kind of, you know, not just gravitas, but anger

313
00:15:52.379 --> 00:15:54.899
and that sort of, you know, crossing the line as the doctor.

314
00:15:54.960 --> 00:15:57.120
I think it's him and I think he really works for me.

315
00:15:57.179 --> 00:16:00.360
That's why you employ Christopher Eccleston to play a dramatic

316
00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:00.600
role.

317
00:16:00.659 --> 00:16:01.019
Exactly.

318
00:16:01.080 --> 00:16:05.700
You give him meaty, sort of emotionally weighty, angry, sort of

319
00:16:05.700 --> 00:16:09.539
broken people to play because he's bloody good at it.

320
00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:10.379
He's brilliant.

321
00:16:10.440 --> 00:16:14.100
In fact, in Day of the Doctor, I was actually slightly

322
00:16:14.100 --> 00:16:19.259
disappointed that they gave the role of wiping out the Daleks and

323
00:16:19.259 --> 00:16:22.860
Time Lords to another doctor that we hadn't heard of before

324
00:16:22.860 --> 00:16:27.299
because I kind of thought it would have been interesting to see

325
00:16:27.299 --> 00:16:28.379
Eccleston do that.

326
00:16:28.440 --> 00:16:30.659
And I know that, you know, they couldn't get Eccleston for

327
00:16:30.659 --> 00:16:33.779
whatever reason, and they did quite a good job of getting around

328
00:16:33.779 --> 00:16:34.019
that.

329
00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:37.200
We didn't negotiate with him until quite late in the day as well.

330
00:16:37.259 --> 00:16:37.799
Yeah.

331
00:16:37.860 --> 00:16:41.039
But that would have been amazing, that the person who done that

332
00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:44.639
wasn't, you know, this dark secret that the doctor had sort of

333
00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:48.000
disavowed, that was one of the doctors that we loved, that Rose

334
00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:50.879
had loved, you know, someone that we knew had done that.

335
00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:55.679
Though if you've listened to the Big Finnish War Doctor stories

336
00:16:55.679 --> 00:16:57.179
you might change your mind.

337
00:17:01.620 --> 00:17:04.440
I don't know, but then you get the chance of getting John.

338
00:17:04.500 --> 00:17:05.460
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

339
00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:06.059
No, no, no.

340
00:17:06.660 --> 00:17:06.839
Exactly.

341
00:17:06.900 --> 00:17:07.680
It turned out.

342
00:17:07.740 --> 00:17:09.839
It turned out for the best.

343
00:17:09.900 --> 00:17:16.680
Jacqueline Pierce playing basically a time lady version of... of

344
00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:17.400
the quarantine Greek.

345
00:17:17.460 --> 00:17:17.940
Okay.

346
00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:19.619
Franzine Greek I should say.

347
00:17:27.539 --> 00:17:30.119
Can we talk about some of the guest stars?

348
00:17:30.180 --> 00:17:30.839
Oh, yes.

349
00:17:30.900 --> 00:17:34.140
So, we have Henry Van Staten.

350
00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:35.759
What do we think?

351
00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:39.299
I cringed when I rewatched this episode the other day?

352
00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:40.140
Did he?

353
00:17:40.200 --> 00:17:42.119
Yeah, I mean, I think you're supposed to.

354
00:17:42.180 --> 00:17:45.599
I think maybe I cringed in 2005?

355
00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:51.180
And look, I think that's he's a big comedy obnoxious brash

356
00:17:51.180 --> 00:17:52.980
American stereotype.

357
00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:57.779
So, like, I don't think that's not what they were going for.

358
00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:01.680
I don't think it's him playing the part badly, but I just found it

359
00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:02.579
uncomfortable to watch.

360
00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:06.420
I think there's an element of like intent around that as well.

361
00:18:06.539 --> 00:18:08.160
Like, you know, the doctor mocks him.

362
00:18:08.220 --> 00:18:10.619
He says he wants to touch the stars, but the only way that he can

363
00:18:10.619 --> 00:18:12.900
do it is by dragging them down to earth and burying them with

364
00:18:12.900 --> 00:18:13.859
something along those lives.

365
00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:16.920
There's a real sort of collective vibe to him, both, you know, in

366
00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:20.220
terms of the literal sense. kind of like a John Fowles collector

367
00:18:20.220 --> 00:18:23.279
sense and even here's a deep cut.

368
00:18:23.339 --> 00:18:26.400
A bit like John Blum and Kate Ormond collector in unnatural

369
00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:28.319
history, or even light in ghostlight.

370
00:18:28.380 --> 00:18:31.440
There's someone who sort of has a very narrow view of the entire

371
00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:35.460
universe and he comes across as entirely ridiculous when pitted

372
00:18:35.460 --> 00:18:36.359
against the Dalek.

373
00:18:36.420 --> 00:18:38.099
You know, he says, I am Henry Van Staden.

374
00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:38.880
Now recognise me.

375
00:18:38.940 --> 00:18:42.660
He's so irrelevant in the overall scheme of things, and, you know

376
00:18:42.660 --> 00:18:46.680
there's that lovely sort of irony, I guess, that we can see as a

377
00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:47.279
result of that.

378
00:18:47.339 --> 00:18:51.599
He's meant to come across as faintly comedic to me.

379
00:18:51.660 --> 00:18:56.460
I think his best bit is actually when he's looking directly into

380
00:18:56.460 --> 00:18:59.160
the Dalek eyepiece and we get the Dalek point of view and he

381
00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:02.880
demands, you know, that the Daleks speak to him and his face is

382
00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:05.099
all kind of inflated and stuff like that.

383
00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:08.220
I think I think that is really great.

384
00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:08.819
Yeah, yeah.

385
00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:12.059
I mean, like I said, I think, you know, that's very deliberate.

386
00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:12.480
Yeah.

387
00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:13.440
The character is rich.

388
00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:13.920
I think so.

389
00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:14.940
To be more.

390
00:19:15.059 --> 00:19:16.319
Yeah, it deflates him.

391
00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:17.220
For his hubris.

392
00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:21.539
Yeah, like I actually found him a lot like some of the sort of

393
00:19:21.539 --> 00:19:25.500
scary and unpleasant kind of tech guys that we have now, like

394
00:19:25.500 --> 00:19:27.480
Zuckerberg and Bezos and Mark. mask.

395
00:19:27.539 --> 00:19:29.579
I wouldn't say that too loudly.

396
00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:31.440
You don't want to be banned with Facebook.

397
00:19:32.220 --> 00:19:34.619
I think he's meant to evoke that.

398
00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:37.680
Yeah, wasn't wasn't the initial name of the character meant to be

399
00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:40.440
Will Fencers as a play on Bill Gates?

400
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:41.160
Yes.

401
00:19:41.819 --> 00:19:43.440
Yes, it was.

402
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:47.039
Yeah. appalling. fences what?

403
00:19:47.460 --> 00:19:48.839
Sorry.

404
00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:53.640
No, he just sounds like one of the pint people in the patrol, I

405
00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:54.900
think.

406
00:19:55.140 --> 00:19:57.660
But I love Goddard.

407
00:19:57.720 --> 00:20:01.259
I just think, um, so his sidekick, the fabulous sidekick, who is

408
00:20:01.259 --> 00:20:03.660
the um, Crow Timman of the thing.

409
00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:06.240
You know why she's called Goddard?

410
00:20:06.299 --> 00:20:09.539
Jane Goddard is Rob Shem.

411
00:20:09.599 --> 00:20:10.619
Sheman's wife's name.

412
00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:11.099
Yeah.

413
00:20:11.099 --> 00:20:15.059
Also, um, you read it.

414
00:20:15.059 --> 00:20:15.900
Prevention.

415
00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:16.619
Yeah, yeah, we met.

416
00:20:16.619 --> 00:20:17.880
Yeah, yeah.

417
00:20:17.940 --> 00:20:19.799
We got to meet Rob Shearman.

418
00:20:19.859 --> 00:20:23.579
And he was introduced to his wife by Katie Manning.

419
00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:24.599
Oh wow.

420
00:20:24.900 --> 00:20:27.960
Because they I think they went to school together.

421
00:20:28.019 --> 00:20:28.559
Right.

422
00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:32.400
Or, you know, at least have known each other since like Rada or

423
00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:32.700
something.

424
00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:34.440
And he's such a lovely man.

425
00:20:34.500 --> 00:20:37.799
Yeah, yeah, he is really hasn't written for shape since.

426
00:20:37.859 --> 00:20:41.160
Like, I don't know why, but I can't help thinking that being

427
00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:44.220
assigned one episode to write and having to write a whole bunch of

428
00:20:44.220 --> 00:20:49.380
scripts as the demands change meant that it was, you know, more

429
00:20:49.380 --> 00:20:51.119
work than he'd expected.

430
00:20:51.180 --> 00:20:53.339
I think also he's more of an author.

431
00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:59.700
And in that, like, sorry, an hauteur, he tends to write very

432
00:20:59.700 --> 00:21:04.319
idiosyncratic, you know, like you can tell something is written by

433
00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:05.519
Rob Sherman.

434
00:21:05.579 --> 00:21:08.400
Particularly big finish. and Jubilee.

435
00:21:08.460 --> 00:21:10.980
Yeah, and the Holy Terror.

436
00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:15.359
Yeah, which is dark and twisted and amazing.

437
00:21:15.420 --> 00:21:21.480
Um, and I think being rewritten and rewritten and rewritten kind

438
00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:25.440
of robs it of a lot of the Rob Shermanness.

439
00:21:25.500 --> 00:21:30.599
It's dark, but it's not as kind of weirdly dark and comedic as his

440
00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:31.740
big finish stuff.

441
00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:35.579
It has kind of been sort of sandpapered a bit so that it fits into

442
00:21:35.579 --> 00:21:39.359
a particular space in the season and a particular tone that

443
00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:40.019
they're going for.

444
00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:41.940
Yeah, I think that's right.

445
00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:45.180
Rob Shearman, I think, claims that he's never watched Dalek.

446
00:21:45.299 --> 00:21:49.259
It's the only Doctor Who episode that he hasn't been able to bring

447
00:21:49.259 --> 00:21:50.220
himself to watch.

448
00:21:50.339 --> 00:21:52.619
That's really rather sweet.

449
00:21:52.740 --> 00:21:56.279
Yeah, no, he can sort of barely believe that he wrote for Doctor

450
00:21:56.279 --> 00:21:57.539
Who all these years later.

451
00:21:59.579 --> 00:22:02.460
Maybe Chipnall can bring him back.

452
00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:06.180
We don't have pics of the week this week, but Rob Schumann and

453
00:22:06.180 --> 00:22:09.599
Toby Hadoke have written 2 books called Running Through Corridors

454
00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:12.720
in which they just email their reactions.

455
00:22:12.779 --> 00:22:16.740
They watch 2 episodes a day and they email their reactions to each

456
00:22:16.740 --> 00:22:21.539
other at the end of the day and their brief is to be positive to

457
00:22:21.539 --> 00:22:25.259
find something really good to say about every episode and it's

458
00:22:25.259 --> 00:22:26.160
absolutely wonderful.

459
00:22:26.220 --> 00:22:30.960
It's a really fun kind of, well, let's call it a flight through

460
00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:31.500
entirety.

461
00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:34.380
It's a really fun kind of trip through the history of Doctor Who

462
00:22:34.380 --> 00:22:39.059
by people who really kind of know how TV works and have a lot of

463
00:22:39.059 --> 00:22:40.380
knowledge of the of the show.

464
00:22:42.299 --> 00:22:44.759
People sitting on a couch blowing.

465
00:22:44.819 --> 00:22:45.599
I think I read this.

466
00:22:46.259 --> 00:22:49.920
But I can really strongly recommend it.

467
00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:55.200
And he's, he, how very lovely he is absolutely comes across in

468
00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:56.640
running through corridors.

469
00:22:56.700 --> 00:22:59.160
So that's available in all good bookstores everywhere.

470
00:23:02.220 --> 00:23:06.779
So Goddard, who is the last woman standing, and she gets to do

471
00:23:06.779 --> 00:23:07.740
lots of comedy as well.

472
00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:12.839
She's the one who wipes his memory and when Van Staten wants the

473
00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:16.500
president replaced, you know, she wants it to be a Democrat

474
00:23:16.500 --> 00:23:20.759
because they're just so funny, you know, she does get a lot of the

475
00:23:20.759 --> 00:23:21.720
best lines.

476
00:23:21.779 --> 00:23:24.960
And even after the sort of huge disaster has happened at the end

477
00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:30.299
she gets to sort of take us out with sort of funny gags, you know

478
00:23:30.299 --> 00:23:33.119
about Van Stanton's ultimate fame.

479
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:35.460
No, I think she's great.

480
00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:37.920
I love how hypercompetent, but also ambitious she is.

481
00:23:37.980 --> 00:23:40.680
You know, the 1st thing that we see of her is that she slots

482
00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:43.799
seamlessly and quickly into the place of the number 2 role the

483
00:23:43.799 --> 00:23:45.720
moment the...

484
00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:48.779
She just slips in there whilst the other guy's been carted off to

485
00:23:48.779 --> 00:23:56.099
become a, you know, a junkie somewhere beginning with M. No, she's

486
00:23:56.099 --> 00:23:56.640
fabulous.

487
00:23:56.700 --> 00:23:59.220
And she's sort of crowds him and only funny.

488
00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:08.759
So, the other big guest star is, of course, Bruno Langley's Adam.

489
00:24:08.819 --> 00:24:12.180
I think it's hilarious that, you know, what we get with, uh, in

490
00:24:12.180 --> 00:24:14.940
terms of a 1st full scene that he has with Rose, he starts to

491
00:24:14.940 --> 00:24:17.220
mansplain aliens to Rose.

492
00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:19.380
I just found that incredibly funny.

493
00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:23.759
And she does, like, this is, you know, a decade before the word

494
00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:26.099
mansplain comes into the vocabulary.

495
00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:28.920
I love her where she licks her teeth as he's doing it.

496
00:24:28.980 --> 00:24:31.500
Like, oh, this guy doesn't know it.

497
00:24:31.559 --> 00:24:33.420
I mean he's such a dork.

498
00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:38.039
Yeah, she just bites her tongue and then says, you know, he says

499
00:24:38.039 --> 00:24:40.559
something like, I think they're all, they're all crazy, you know

500
00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:42.839
those people who talk about aliens and she goes, yeah, you're

501
00:24:42.839 --> 00:24:43.079
probably right.

502
00:24:43.140 --> 00:24:47.279
In fact, I kind of like that because, you know, that is kind of

503
00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:50.880
how the audience at home would react to someone who thought they'd

504
00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:51.779
seen aliens.

505
00:24:51.900 --> 00:24:52.619
Do you know what I mean?

506
00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:55.440
And I just thought it was terribly funny that Rose maintained that

507
00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:58.920
attitude, even, you know, having seen all these aliens.

508
00:24:58.980 --> 00:24:59.160
Yeah.

509
00:24:59.220 --> 00:25:01.019
Actually, they're mostly just not cases.

510
00:25:01.079 --> 00:25:02.640
I thought that was terribly cute.

511
00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:07.799
And there is a little bit of a sort of an attempt to give them a

512
00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:10.740
little bit of a sort of romantic scene and it's not something I

513
00:25:10.740 --> 00:25:13.259
think that is particularly overwritten.

514
00:25:13.380 --> 00:25:16.980
Like it's not like what we'll get in a few weeks time with, you

515
00:25:16.980 --> 00:25:20.700
know, Rose and Jack, but there is a sort of low-key thing.

516
00:25:20.759 --> 00:25:22.799
She clearly finds him a bit attractive.

517
00:25:22.859 --> 00:25:24.059
He finds her attractive.

518
00:25:24.119 --> 00:25:29.039
You know, and Van Staten immediately casts them in that role by

519
00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:31.680
you know, sending her off with him to canoodle or spoon or

520
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:33.059
whatever it is you breeds do.

521
00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:33.420
Yeah.

522
00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:41.220
Speaking of, speaking of canoodling, Media Watch UK, which is the

523
00:25:41.220 --> 00:25:43.859
organisation that used to be the national viewers and listeners

524
00:25:43.859 --> 00:25:44.400
association.

525
00:25:44.460 --> 00:25:46.559
Ooh, Mary White House.

526
00:25:46.619 --> 00:25:48.119
Yes, yes.

527
00:25:48.180 --> 00:25:51.720
They're back They, um, well, I think they changed their name

528
00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:52.859
briefly before this.

529
00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:55.019
So they were.

530
00:25:55.019 --> 00:25:57.599
Clean up national TV originally and then...

531
00:25:57.599 --> 00:25:58.319
Oh, what's it called?

532
00:25:58.380 --> 00:25:59.940
Cleanup TV society.

533
00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:00.299
Okay.

534
00:26:00.299 --> 00:26:05.220
And, yeah, and then they they became Media watch UK and they're

535
00:26:05.220 --> 00:26:07.500
like, I think in like 2008, 2009.

536
00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:09.720
They had a lot to say about this.

537
00:26:09.779 --> 00:26:10.500
Really?

538
00:26:10.619 --> 00:26:14.400
Yeah, so they, um, they complained that certain parts of the

539
00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:18.420
episode, including the torture scenes and the, um, you know, the

540
00:26:18.420 --> 00:26:24.539
doctor being x-rayed, um, were, were Cedo masochistic torture.

541
00:26:24.660 --> 00:26:27.539
Oh, and they take his shirt off. have we not mentioned that?

542
00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:28.559
He's very skinny.

543
00:26:28.619 --> 00:26:30.299
Yes, he is very skinny.

544
00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:34.319
And they brought up the canoodling scene as well. and said it was

545
00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:36.240
inappropriate sexual language.

546
00:26:36.299 --> 00:26:36.839
What?

547
00:26:36.839 --> 00:26:39.539
Bizarre.

548
00:26:39.539 --> 00:26:41.640
Children's private television series.

549
00:26:41.700 --> 00:26:42.839
Wow.

550
00:26:42.900 --> 00:26:46.319
I don't think they know what the widdling is over there at me.

551
00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:47.220
Yes, they did.

552
00:26:48.119 --> 00:26:53.940
Oh, that just reminds me of the Dame Dasiri cart, what's episodes

553
00:26:53.940 --> 00:26:54.539
of the goodies?

554
00:26:54.599 --> 00:26:56.099
What do we think the Goodies podcast?

555
00:26:56.220 --> 00:26:57.240
We're doing it now, darling.

556
00:27:00.299 --> 00:27:01.920
We'll put that in the show notes.

557
00:27:01.980 --> 00:27:07.619
Yeah, I think he's, like, I actually kind of like the idea and, you

558
00:27:07.619 --> 00:27:10.920
know, at this point in the, in the show, we don't know how it's

559
00:27:10.920 --> 00:27:14.579
going to go, like with hindsight, we know that the cast will

560
00:27:14.579 --> 00:27:18.119
change every year and, you know, that we'll get Captain Jack

561
00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:20.039
coming in for a few episodes and things.

562
00:27:20.099 --> 00:27:22.799
But, you know, when he goes off in the Tartars at the end.

563
00:27:22.859 --> 00:27:25.440
We don't know how that's going to play out.

564
00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:30.000
And it's certainly nothing like what's happened in the old

565
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:30.420
series.

566
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:34.319
You know, But we have that kind of list in our head.

567
00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:38.220
You know, our roster of people who count as companions who don't

568
00:27:38.220 --> 00:27:42.240
and you know, Sarah Kingdom, yes, Brett Vion, no, the brigadier.

569
00:27:42.299 --> 00:27:46.079
Yes, because he was in the Tardis that one time, maybe, or

570
00:27:46.079 --> 00:27:46.559
whatever.

571
00:27:46.619 --> 00:27:51.660
And you can see Russell kind of wanting to break that as a

572
00:27:51.660 --> 00:27:52.200
concept.

573
00:27:52.259 --> 00:27:56.819
And so Adam gets to go into the TARDIS for 2 episodes, spoiler

574
00:27:56.819 --> 00:27:57.299
alert.

575
00:27:57.359 --> 00:27:59.519
So he doesn't really count as a companion.

576
00:27:59.579 --> 00:28:03.240
I think, well, he gets into taught us one episode.

577
00:28:03.299 --> 00:28:04.380
You don't see him in the title.

578
00:28:04.440 --> 00:28:04.799
Yeah, no.

579
00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:06.180
There are no charter scenes.

580
00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:06.900
Yeah, that's true.

581
00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:09.000
I think we touched on this.

582
00:28:09.059 --> 00:28:13.559
Uh, when we did, I mean, it's fun in World War 3 with Max.

583
00:28:14.039 --> 00:28:18.000
The idea that the doctor doesn't have companions anymore.

584
00:28:18.059 --> 00:28:22.859
They kind of got rid of the word and they just became his friends

585
00:28:22.859 --> 00:28:26.039
and those friends could jump in and out.

586
00:28:26.099 --> 00:28:32.400
And that comes much more pronounced in the Moffat era, where Amy

587
00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:33.900
and Rory might be there, they might not.

588
00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:39.240
It depends on their contracts and whether, you know, they've

589
00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:40.799
managed to convince them to come back this week.

590
00:28:41.220 --> 00:28:46.980
And we're recording this just after seeing the series 11 trailer.

591
00:28:47.099 --> 00:28:48.420
Oh, I'm so excited.

592
00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:48.960
Yeah.

593
00:28:49.019 --> 00:28:54.420
And it's entirely possible that this is going out after the season

594
00:28:54.420 --> 00:28:58.079
begins. because we haven't got a definite date.

595
00:28:58.140 --> 00:29:00.000
Or maybe after...

596
00:29:00.059 --> 00:29:00.299
Sorry.

597
00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:06.359
So, um, and they very definitely have gone away from the idea that

598
00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:10.019
they're companions and, you know, these are the doctor's friends.

599
00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:12.779
And companion was always kind of a weird sort of thing.

600
00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:16.680
And Rosaleva makes fun of that in aliens of London, where, you

601
00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:20.220
know, the doctor says, oh, I employed Roses, my companion.

602
00:29:20.220 --> 00:29:22.740
And the policeman says, oh, so you're shagging then?

603
00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:23.579
Is that what's happening?

604
00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:25.559
This is a sexual relation.

605
00:29:26.519 --> 00:29:27.900
Yeah.

606
00:29:27.960 --> 00:29:31.920
So we'll talk more about Adam next week, obviously. and I'm sure

607
00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:35.400
that he's going to go into the Hall of Fame of, you know, greatest

608
00:29:35.400 --> 00:29:38.880
companions along with Katrina and Dodo, I suppose.

609
00:29:38.940 --> 00:29:42.359
And everything's going to turn out just fine for that young man.

610
00:29:42.420 --> 00:29:43.019
I can just tell.

611
00:29:43.140 --> 00:29:46.740
Do you reckon he's meant to be a bit crap because there's a

612
00:29:46.740 --> 00:29:49.980
there's an underlying theme, I think, to, to companions in in

613
00:29:49.980 --> 00:29:53.880
Noohoo, where they almost need to be worthy to enter the Tartars

614
00:29:53.880 --> 00:29:55.920
which certainly wasn't the case in the classic era.

615
00:29:55.980 --> 00:30:00.119
Yeah, I think they, I think they, they actually lampshaded that.

616
00:30:00.299 --> 00:30:04.799
In confidential or some interviews at the time.

617
00:30:04.859 --> 00:30:10.259
Basically, I think Russell Russell said, yes, I wanted to show you

618
00:30:10.259 --> 00:30:14.640
what happens when a companion like isn't up to scratch. that takes

619
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:18.059
a certain type of person to travel with the doctor.

620
00:30:18.119 --> 00:30:22.680
They have to, you know, have like the same sort of moral code as

621
00:30:22.680 --> 00:30:23.039
him.

622
00:30:23.099 --> 00:30:25.619
They have to be held to a higher standard.

623
00:30:25.619 --> 00:30:30.059
And, and I specifically wanted to actually show what happens when

624
00:30:30.059 --> 00:30:33.900
someone who's not up to scratch comes into the TARDIS.

625
00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:36.960
Well, in rows, you know, like rose is just someone completely

626
00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:39.599
ordinary, but the doctor is impressed by her.

627
00:30:39.660 --> 00:30:40.380
She's smart.

628
00:30:40.500 --> 00:30:44.339
You know, he's reluctant to take her on board, I think, initially

629
00:30:44.339 --> 00:30:48.480
and tells her to forget him and stuff, but she's smart and funny.

630
00:30:48.539 --> 00:30:50.940
They spark, they laugh together.

631
00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:53.339
She's super brave, all of those kinds of things.

632
00:30:53.400 --> 00:30:58.980
Here kind of Rose wants to take him on board, perhaps, because

633
00:30:58.980 --> 00:31:01.259
well, you know, because she thinks he's pretty, but also because

634
00:31:01.259 --> 00:31:04.319
she kind of feels a bit sorry for him.

635
00:31:04.380 --> 00:31:08.640
He's kind of left behind and he really, really wants to see the

636
00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:10.500
stars and doesn't think he ever will.

637
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:15.180
But I think that we'll talk more about this next week, but it's

638
00:31:15.180 --> 00:31:19.440
more that Adam's her companion for the next story.

639
00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:21.599
Yeah, so she's a dowager aunt.

640
00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:22.500
She is.

641
00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:27.359
He's the doctor's grand companion, I think, probably.

642
00:31:27.420 --> 00:31:28.140
Oh, dear.

643
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:41.880
What do we think at the beginning of the story, the Daleks up to?

644
00:31:41.940 --> 00:31:45.059
Like, Rose meets the Dalek.

645
00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:47.759
She doesn't know anything about the Daleks.

646
00:31:47.819 --> 00:31:50.940
You know, the doc hasn't shown her any pictures or talked about it

647
00:31:50.940 --> 00:31:51.720
or anything.

648
00:31:51.720 --> 00:31:56.339
And so all she sees is something being tortured and that she wants

649
00:31:56.339 --> 00:31:56.579
to help.

650
00:31:56.640 --> 00:32:01.200
And she responds to it in the way that she has learned, that he

651
00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:07.980
responds to, um, to aliens, in the in the last, you know, half a

652
00:32:07.980 --> 00:32:08.220
season.

653
00:32:08.279 --> 00:32:11.279
Yeah, yeah, like to the gal. you know, he wanted to help the gal.

654
00:32:11.339 --> 00:32:13.019
He wanted to help the nest team.

655
00:32:13.079 --> 00:32:17.099
So she is basically playing the traditional role that she sees the

656
00:32:17.099 --> 00:32:19.019
doctor playing in these stories.

657
00:32:19.079 --> 00:32:21.420
She's going, oh, this poor creature.

658
00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:23.099
It's being tortured.

659
00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:24.480
I feel sorry for it.

660
00:32:24.539 --> 00:32:27.180
I'm not making assumptions about it.

661
00:32:27.240 --> 00:32:31.619
She's not judging it by its appearance, and that's the, you know

662
00:32:31.619 --> 00:32:35.339
that is the main turning point in the story is when she touches it

663
00:32:35.339 --> 00:32:40.319
because she's feeling for it, and then that gets 100s of people

664
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:40.859
killed.

665
00:32:40.980 --> 00:32:45.359
And, but it also, it also leads the dalek in a new direction as

666
00:32:45.359 --> 00:32:45.599
well.

667
00:32:45.660 --> 00:32:47.339
I think it goes back to that.

668
00:32:47.400 --> 00:32:49.559
We were talking about the David Whittaker conception of the

669
00:32:49.559 --> 00:32:50.279
Daleks.

670
00:32:50.339 --> 00:32:53.460
I think the moment that it hears that Rose is a friend of the

671
00:32:53.460 --> 00:32:55.380
doctors and has travelled through time.

672
00:32:55.440 --> 00:32:58.079
You know, it's that sort of cunning, calculating aspect of the

673
00:32:58.079 --> 00:32:59.339
dialects coming to the fore.

674
00:32:59.400 --> 00:33:02.759
And, you know, it sort of plays on that pity.

675
00:33:02.819 --> 00:33:06.779
It sort of, you know, really sort of tries to get that element of

676
00:33:06.779 --> 00:33:10.740
compassion out of her so that when she touches him or it, it

677
00:33:10.740 --> 00:33:15.359
regenerates, I think I think that's a really sort of clever way of

678
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:17.940
sort of representing the Daleks is really just, you know

679
00:33:17.940 --> 00:33:21.000
incredibly conniving and incredibly intelligent and being able

680
00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:22.619
just being smarter than you, you know?

681
00:33:22.680 --> 00:33:26.039
But there's a wonderful twist to it because, you know, the

682
00:33:26.039 --> 00:33:28.740
compassion that he tries to elicit, it is actually the thing that

683
00:33:28.740 --> 00:33:30.420
undoes it, and that is incredible.

684
00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:33.000
That's the best part of the story for me right at the end.

685
00:33:33.059 --> 00:33:34.799
See, you can't kill Daleks.

686
00:33:34.859 --> 00:33:37.619
You can't destroy fascists with guns like the doctor postures in

687
00:33:37.619 --> 00:33:38.460
that showdown scene.

688
00:33:38.519 --> 00:33:41.640
It's like only the compassion of the companion here can do that

689
00:33:41.640 --> 00:33:45.180
because compassion to a dalek is a corrupting contagion.

690
00:33:45.240 --> 00:33:48.839
Like, it's the only way that Doctor Who could ever destroy the

691
00:33:48.839 --> 00:33:51.539
last of the Daleks, and I just love the show for it.

692
00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:56.099
I like too, that there is kind of a sort of crummy science fiction

693
00:33:56.099 --> 00:33:58.259
explanation given for what's going on.

694
00:33:58.319 --> 00:34:04.200
But I think it's also just possible to read that she has been kind

695
00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:10.019
to the Dalek, and the Dalek has really properly experience that

696
00:34:10.019 --> 00:34:13.679
kindness, and that's why it's confused.

697
00:34:13.739 --> 00:34:17.579
You know, it's been taught to hate all other life forms that

698
00:34:17.579 --> 00:34:20.340
they're worthless and someone who shows.

699
00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:26.159
It's never had, it's never given itself the chance to, to actually

700
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:29.519
to see that because they never last long enough.

701
00:34:29.639 --> 00:34:33.000
Yeah, so in one sense, it's a sort of science fiction contagion

702
00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:37.199
where her DNA has, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

703
00:34:37.260 --> 00:34:38.039
Yeah, whatever.

704
00:34:38.099 --> 00:34:42.179
But really what has happened is she's shown it kindness.

705
00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:44.039
She's physically touched it.

706
00:34:44.099 --> 00:34:49.800
And it's been moved by that and it no longer finds itself able to

707
00:34:49.800 --> 00:34:51.659
muster up the desire to kill.

708
00:34:51.719 --> 00:34:54.960
And I kind of like the complexity of it as well.

709
00:34:55.019 --> 00:34:59.519
I mean, the story needs the dalek to die at the end and it kind of

710
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:03.059
forecloses any possibility that any of our characters are going to

711
00:35:03.059 --> 00:35:03.480
kill it.

712
00:35:03.539 --> 00:35:04.920
We can't have the doctor killing it.

713
00:35:04.980 --> 00:35:08.219
So, you know, it decides to kill itself.

714
00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:12.780
And that's a moment that Rose, I think, finds difficult to deal

715
00:35:12.780 --> 00:35:13.260
with.

716
00:35:13.380 --> 00:35:17.699
You know, there's a sort of a weird thing where she's had

717
00:35:17.699 --> 00:35:22.139
compassion for the dalek, but also recognises it as something

718
00:35:22.139 --> 00:35:27.480
really evil, you know, that it still does, it's conflicted about

719
00:35:27.480 --> 00:35:31.440
whether to kill everyone or not, you know, and certainly the look

720
00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:36.840
on Billy Piper's face when it's kind of enunciating that kind of

721
00:35:36.840 --> 00:35:42.179
moral dilemma shows a sort of, There is a level of disgust there.

722
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:46.679
But just the sheer simplicity of what it wants instead of killing

723
00:35:46.679 --> 00:35:51.000
it wants to feel the sun on its face one last time before it kills

724
00:35:51.000 --> 00:35:51.360
itself.

725
00:35:51.420 --> 00:35:55.920
Wouldn't it have been just beautiful if they'd never brought the

726
00:35:55.920 --> 00:35:56.579
Dalux back?

727
00:35:56.639 --> 00:35:58.920
Yeah, that's been the ending.

728
00:35:59.579 --> 00:36:03.000
They would have been something quite poetic about that.

729
00:36:03.059 --> 00:36:03.659
I agree.

730
00:36:03.719 --> 00:36:05.099
Yeah, absolutely.

731
00:36:05.159 --> 00:36:07.320
Yeah, then ruined it at the end of the series.

732
00:36:07.380 --> 00:36:07.860
Yeah.

733
00:36:07.860 --> 00:36:12.599
But an act of kindness is the last thing in the time war.

734
00:36:12.659 --> 00:36:14.880
It's the thing that puts the time war to rest.

735
00:36:14.940 --> 00:36:16.380
Such a gorgeous idea.

736
00:36:16.440 --> 00:36:20.460
It just isn't doable because you have to have the dalek, I think.

737
00:36:20.519 --> 00:36:23.340
I mean, maybe if Dalek had happened in the last, you know, in

738
00:36:23.340 --> 00:36:24.119
series 43.

739
00:36:25.619 --> 00:36:29.639
And I also kind of like the way that she confronts the doctor as

740
00:36:29.639 --> 00:36:33.000
well, that the dalek turns the doctor into a man with a gun.

741
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:37.739
And, you know, we had that line, which I can't believe we haven't

742
00:36:37.739 --> 00:36:40.679
mentioned before now, that you would make a great dalek.

743
00:36:40.739 --> 00:36:45.900
I think it's another reason why the title Dalek is, you know, with

744
00:36:45.900 --> 00:36:50.940
no article and not plural is a perfect title for this because it's

745
00:36:50.940 --> 00:36:51.360
not.

746
00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:53.280
Who is the Dalek, yeah.

747
00:36:53.340 --> 00:36:57.900
And the doctor runs up there with a massively ludicrous science

748
00:36:57.900 --> 00:37:01.440
fiction gun, you know, as big as he can possibly carry.

749
00:37:04.500 --> 00:37:07.320
In order to kill the dalek and she won't let it happen because

750
00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:08.760
he's a man with a gun.

751
00:37:08.760 --> 00:37:14.099
And this is something sick and sad and conflicted that just wants

752
00:37:14.099 --> 00:37:15.960
to feel freedom for a moment.

753
00:37:16.019 --> 00:37:18.360
And you're breaking the format of the program.

754
00:37:19.019 --> 00:37:21.840
But I think this is what Dalek does, right?

755
00:37:21.900 --> 00:37:24.840
I mean, again, we talked about it sort of reimagining the Daleks

756
00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:28.679
in a very sort of uh 21st century way, but part of that also is

757
00:37:28.679 --> 00:37:31.500
the nuance or the sort of complexity of the characterisation of

758
00:37:31.500 --> 00:37:34.739
the dalek and what's the motivation of it as well as also the

759
00:37:34.739 --> 00:37:36.119
motivation of the doctor, you know?

760
00:37:36.179 --> 00:37:39.719
I really think in that regard, like the setting of the story is

761
00:37:39.719 --> 00:37:42.599
really important, rather, in the way that that story is told, you

762
00:37:42.599 --> 00:37:45.300
know, it's kind of like the descendant into the underworld and the

763
00:37:45.300 --> 00:37:48.420
ascent back into the light, from the depths of hell, you know, you

764
00:37:48.420 --> 00:37:50.880
have, yeah, sure, the TARDIS arrives in the bowels of the earth.

765
00:37:50.940 --> 00:37:53.880
It's sort of very much sort of, you know, hearkens back to

766
00:37:53.880 --> 00:37:57.780
Heracles and Odysseus, Orpheus, Aeneas and Dante, but it's the

767
00:37:57.780 --> 00:38:00.059
metaphorical dimensions, I reckon, of that structure that

768
00:38:00.059 --> 00:38:03.360
fascinate me more because it's neither the doctrine nor the Dalek

769
00:38:03.360 --> 00:38:05.159
are entirely good or evil in this one.

770
00:38:05.219 --> 00:38:08.760
It's not a nice, safe, clear sort of binary where the doctors, the

771
00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:09.059
hero.

772
00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:10.920
This is the Dalek and they're the villains.

773
00:38:10.980 --> 00:38:13.679
Instead, they're kind of like, there's almost like they're the

774
00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:16.019
same, or the different sides of the same coin.

775
00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:19.139
You know, they're both survivors of the last time war.

776
00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:22.559
You know, they're both sort of alone in the universe in that

777
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:25.860
regard, but they just happen to sort of be opposite ends of that

778
00:38:25.860 --> 00:38:26.400
spectrum.

779
00:38:26.460 --> 00:38:29.460
And, you know, it's sort of Jungen in many ways as well. you know

780
00:38:29.460 --> 00:38:31.739
the archetypes of the self and the shadow.

781
00:38:31.739 --> 00:38:34.739
And those are aspects of the same self.

782
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:38.460
And this is what I really like about Dalek, in terms of the way in

783
00:38:38.460 --> 00:38:42.539
which the morality of the doctor is questioned, and maybe even the

784
00:38:42.539 --> 00:38:45.960
sort of qualities of the dalek, in terms of it being able to be

785
00:38:45.960 --> 00:38:47.400
redeemed are also brought up.

786
00:38:47.460 --> 00:38:48.840
Whereas before, I don't think we've ever had that.

787
00:38:48.900 --> 00:38:52.679
No, I mean, we had the human factor, didn't we, in Evil of the

788
00:38:52.679 --> 00:38:53.219
Daleks.

789
00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:54.659
Evil of the Daleks, yeah.

790
00:38:54.719 --> 00:38:57.360
But I think there's quite a touching moment too.

791
00:38:57.420 --> 00:39:00.539
When the Dalek and the doctor are talking to one another on the

792
00:39:00.539 --> 00:39:05.039
screen and the Dalek says we're the same, you know, like neither

793
00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:07.500
of us have any orders coming, what do we do now?

794
00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:38.820
Well, they listen, we've tucked out him in and read him a bedtime

795
00:39:38.820 --> 00:39:42.000
story, so it only remains to whisk him off to somewhere in Earth's

796
00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:42.780
distant future.

797
00:39:42.840 --> 00:39:46.380
You'll see how that turns out in next week's episode, where we'll

798
00:39:46.380 --> 00:39:48.059
be discussing the long game.

799
00:39:48.179 --> 00:39:51.840
In the meantime, you can find us at flightthroughentirety.com

800
00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:55.139
flight through entirety on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at FTE

801
00:39:55.139 --> 00:39:55.980
podcast on Twitter.

802
00:39:56.099 --> 00:39:57.719
Where can people find you, Stephen?

803
00:39:57.780 --> 00:40:01.559
Ah, well, you can find new to who on Twitter at Sunudahoo podcast

804
00:40:01.559 --> 00:40:05.400
and also on Facebook, or you can email us at uh new to who podcast

805
00:40:05.400 --> 00:40:12.000
at gmail.com, and all our episodes can be found on our website, www

806
00:40:09.719 --> 00:40:14.219
nudahoo.com, uh or on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts.

807
00:40:14.340 --> 00:40:18.000
Over on Bondfinger, you can find some fabulous James Bond

808
00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:20.880
commentary podcasts all recorded at different levels of

809
00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:21.840
inebriation.

810
00:40:21.900 --> 00:40:25.619
That's bondfinger.com, bondfinger on Facebook and Apple Podcasts

811
00:40:25.619 --> 00:40:27.599
and at bondfingercast on Twitter.

812
00:40:27.659 --> 00:40:31.320
Until next time, may the blaster you're using defend off the

813
00:40:31.320 --> 00:40:34.980
latest Dalek onslaught not turn out to be yet another hairdryer.

814
00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:36.780
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

815
00:40:36.840 --> 00:40:37.320
Good night.

816
00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:37.800
Good night.

817
00:40:40.860 --> 00:40:44.039
That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottley, Stephen

818
00:40:44.039 --> 00:40:45.480
B. and James Selwood.

819
00:40:45.539 --> 00:40:48.480
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, strings performance by Jane

820
00:40:48.480 --> 00:40:49.260
Orberg.

821
00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:53.280
This episode to Mansplain Aliens was recorded on the 22nd of July

822
00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:56.460
2018 and released on the 30th of September.

823
00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:03.960
We regret to inform our billionaire listeners that Henry Van

824
00:41:03.960 --> 00:41:06.420
Stanton's upcoming spaceflight around the moon has been

825
00:41:06.420 --> 00:41:06.840
cancelled.

826
00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:10.679
And if you see Mr. Van Staten anywhere, please ask him if he knows

827
00:41:10.679 --> 00:41:12.659
where the keys to the space rocket are.

828
00:41:13.260 --> 00:41:15.059
Oh, well thank you.

829
00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:15.780
You were so great.

830
00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:16.920
That was so awesome.

831
00:41:16.980 --> 00:41:20.340
I kind of felt like James and I were wittering on James mostly.

832
00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:21.960
But I was kind of wittering on.

833
00:41:22.019 --> 00:41:26.039
But that was some really, really good stuff.

834
00:41:26.099 --> 00:41:28.559
And it's such a great episode.

835
00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:32.280
You know, there is so much good stuff to say about it.

836
00:41:33.539 --> 00:41:36.599
Yeah, you need more about this than I am.

837
00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:41.400
No, I just sort of go off on my tangents, but you guys keep it

838
00:41:41.400 --> 00:41:44.639
together in terms of just, you know, bringing the actual sort of

839
00:41:44.639 --> 00:41:45.119
story through.

840
00:41:45.179 --> 00:41:49.980
I sort of get lost in the allegorical and the metaphorical sort of

841
00:41:49.980 --> 00:41:53.340
aspects of it because I really, it's really what struck me, even

842
00:41:53.340 --> 00:41:55.679
when I 1st saw it, it was just like, 0 my god, this is like

843
00:41:55.679 --> 00:41:59.940
postmodern good and evil for Doctor Who in the 21st century.

844
00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:02.099
I just, that's the abiding memory that I have of the story.

845
00:42:02.219 --> 00:42:05.699
Oh, it's even it's like the Orpheus thing too, of getting as far

846
00:42:05.699 --> 00:42:09.960
as sunlight. you know, like getting, you know, within sight of

847
00:42:09.960 --> 00:42:13.679
daylight and then going back down to hell.

848
00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:17.880
And like heaps of Russell stories have that sort of verticality to

849
00:42:17.880 --> 00:42:18.539
them as well.

850
00:42:18.599 --> 00:42:22.500
Like, I know this is Shearman, but, but, you know, we are

851
00:42:22.500 --> 00:42:27.719
constantly going up and down in, um, the end of the world and in

852
00:42:27.719 --> 00:42:33.360
New Earth, um, you know, that's something that he he likes to do

853
00:42:33.360 --> 00:42:34.079
just to create.

854
00:42:34.079 --> 00:42:35.159
Yeah, the long game.

855
00:42:35.159 --> 00:42:36.420
The long game.

856
00:42:36.420 --> 00:42:40.019
Yeah, yeah, yeah, people are like trying to...

857
00:42:40.019 --> 00:42:42.780
The last story, parting of the ways, is all about that.

858
00:42:42.780 --> 00:42:43.739
Of course it is, right?

859
00:42:44.340 --> 00:42:45.900
Yeah, trying to go to level 400.

860
00:42:46.019 --> 00:42:46.679
Yeah.

861
00:42:46.739 --> 00:42:49.139
Oh, see, this should have been in the podcast.

862
00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:49.920
Well it can be.

863
00:42:49.980 --> 00:42:51.119
It'll be the tag.

864
00:42:52.380 --> 00:42:54.480
Just remember it for next week.

865
00:42:55.199 --> 00:42:57.000
Yeah, yeah.

866
00:42:57.059 --> 00:42:58.440
I will remember it for a thing.

867
00:42:58.500 --> 00:42:59.460
So we've got...