WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:05:43

1
00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:45.000
Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast recorded live from several places beginning with S. I'm Nathan.

2
00:00:45.060 --> 00:00:46.979
I'm James And I'm Stephen.

3
00:00:47.039 --> 00:00:49.020
It's the year 2012.

4
00:00:49.200 --> 00:01:00.960
We've just materialised in Elon Musk's basement, and there's nothing to see here but the discarded pieces of all our hopes and dreams, which can only mean one thing, the 6th episode of the new series, Dalek.

5
00:01:16.019 --> 00:01:22.680
So there's a real sense in which this is a kind of new beginning for the series, I think.

6
00:01:22.799 --> 00:01:37.079
We've sort of laid the ground rules with rose, and then, you know, we've gone into the past and into the future, and then we've been back at Earth to catch up on sort of Jackie and Mickey and things.

7
00:01:37.140 --> 00:01:41.579
But now it's kind of like we could go anywhere.

8
00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:44.099
This is something completely new.

9
00:01:44.519 --> 00:01:46.379
It's off the hook.

10
00:01:46.500 --> 00:01:47.219
Yeah.

11
00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:50.760
Yeah. sort of everything's been done and set up.

12
00:01:50.819 --> 00:01:54.900
And I think too, because all the publicity had the dalek in it.

13
00:01:54.959 --> 00:01:57.540
I think a lot of new people would be tuning in.

14
00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:02.640
And it's very deliberately been set up to not have any baggage.

15
00:02:02.700 --> 00:02:06.959
There's no real references, the previous episodes of the series.

16
00:02:07.019 --> 00:02:09.419
It's just a, it's another episode one.

17
00:02:09.479 --> 00:02:10.259
Yeah.

18
00:02:10.259 --> 00:02:10.919
Yeah.

19
00:02:10.979 --> 00:02:12.120
I think you're right, Nathan.

20
00:02:12.180 --> 00:02:13.560
In terms of Doctor Hula itself.

21
00:02:13.620 --> 00:02:15.300
This is a massively important story.

22
00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:18.300
I think this is where new who really makes its own mark.

23
00:02:18.360 --> 00:02:24.599
For all the reasons that you've mentioned in terms of the way that it sets it up, and this is the 6th episode of the series.

24
00:02:24.659 --> 00:02:38.699
And it sort of addresses the questions of its own identity and basically establishes new who on its own terms in terms of both as a continuation of the story that we saw over the 1st 26 years, but also in a totally new way of telling that story as well.

25
00:02:38.759 --> 00:02:45.000
You know, here it is, the doctor confronts his mortal nemeses, the dialects, or a singular dalek, at least.

26
00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:48.360
And I just think it's exactly what series one needed at that point in time.

27
00:02:48.360 --> 00:02:49.259
And it's wonderful.

28
00:02:49.319 --> 00:02:51.240
Yeah, it really is something.

29
00:02:51.300 --> 00:03:00.060
I think it was kind of David Whittaker, who really kind of was the one who 1st realised that the Daleks were kind of like a mythical enemy to the doctor.

30
00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:13.680
And, you know, fans kind of like to think that the doctor isn't really the doctor until he's encountered the Daleks and we're all sort of very conscious that each doctor gets to encounter the dialects once on TV, apart from number eight.

31
00:03:13.740 --> 00:03:23.400
And this, I think, is so very definitely set up as a way of creating a real mythical opponent to the doctor.

32
00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:28.500
I think you're right in the sense that we have like a David Whittaker, Whitticarian sort of conception of the Daleks.

33
00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:35.340
And I think what we see here is kind of like the Daleks as we see them in, say, power of the Daleks, where they're scheming and utterly brilliant.

34
00:03:35.400 --> 00:03:45.060
But also, um, evil of the dialect is drawn upon as well, where you got the human factor with roses touch, essentially sort of corrupting the, the dalek DNA and it becomes half human as well.

35
00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:55.139
I love that they've leaned more so on that conception of the Daleks than maybe the Terry Nation kind of runaround conception of the Dialects, which we get a little bit of, and we might talk about that later on.

36
00:03:55.259 --> 00:04:00.120
But I think it's that sort of reimagining of the Daleks for the 21st century, that's really beautifully done here.

37
00:04:00.180 --> 00:04:19.319
And I think too, that given that so many of the members of the audience were people who were kind of aware of the Daleks from Doctor Who's 1st run, but probably weren't sort of big fans, it has a lot of kind of myths to dispel, you know, that Daleks can't climb stairs, that they can't really see you as they trundle past.

38
00:04:19.379 --> 00:04:35.339
So this is, and it may be apocryphal. maybe just, you know, fan law, but apparently Rob Shimman talked to his wife when he was writing the script for Dalek, and he said to her, what's so crap about the Dalek experience?

39
00:04:35.399 --> 00:04:39.839
what do you see is the main sort of things that make the Daleks really naff?

40
00:04:39.899 --> 00:04:42.060
And he wrote them down.

41
00:04:42.060 --> 00:04:46.920
And then he deliberately inverted them when they were writing the script.

42
00:04:46.980 --> 00:04:50.519
So, yeah, that, oh, that sync plunger, you know, what does it do?

43
00:04:50.579 --> 00:04:52.680
use it to break someone's skull.

44
00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:56.279
They can't go upstairs.

45
00:04:56.339 --> 00:04:57.480
Yes, remembrance, we know.

46
00:04:57.720 --> 00:05:00.600
Like they very deliberately invoke that.

47
00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:03.600
Oh, they can't see behind them.

48
00:05:03.660 --> 00:05:06.120
Its head can turn 360 degrees.

49
00:05:06.180 --> 00:05:12.360
Um, so that um, was, you know, that was a very, very forefront in their mind.

50
00:05:12.420 --> 00:05:15.720
They were saying, well, this is what these characters can do.

51
00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:18.240
This is what they were always supposed to be.

52
00:05:18.300 --> 00:05:20.220
And they're super killers.

53
00:05:20.279 --> 00:05:25.019
Like that dialect kills, you know, like 100s of people with like 3 shots.

54
00:05:25.079 --> 00:05:31.800
You know, like he shoots the, you know, the sprinkler and then he just electrocutes everyone.

55
00:05:31.860 --> 00:05:35.699
And the doctor yells at Van Stanten and says 1000000 people all dead.

56
00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:39.959
That's what's going to happen if it escapes. and it's just one dalek.

57
00:05:40.019 --> 00:05:44.639
And so many Doctor Who stories with Daleks in them have Daleks in the plural in the title.

58
00:05:44.699 --> 00:05:53.459
And so having a singular dialect and really kind of lampshading that by calling it dalek singular is so clever.

59
00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:55.800
And then making it like a carnage.

60
00:05:55.920 --> 00:05:57.300
Yeah.

61
00:05:57.300 --> 00:05:59.819
Rather fabulously.

62
00:05:59.879 --> 00:06:01.319
Well, I think it's rather famous.

63
00:06:01.379 --> 00:06:03.420
You know what the working titles for this story were?

64
00:06:03.480 --> 00:06:04.439
No, go on.

65
00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:09.000
One of them was Return of the Daleks, which isn't factually accurate.

66
00:06:09.060 --> 00:06:12.660
And the other was creature of lies.

67
00:06:12.899 --> 00:06:16.019
Which I kind of, I kind of like.

68
00:06:16.079 --> 00:06:18.839
I wish I wish they had actually gone with that.

69
00:06:18.899 --> 00:06:21.839
I think another one, which was used.

70
00:06:21.839 --> 00:06:23.459
We'll get to that later.

71
00:06:24.180 --> 00:06:26.160
No, let's do it.

72
00:06:26.220 --> 00:06:33.120
Let's do it We'll talk about the kind of the antecedents of the story because one of the where he titles was Absence of the Dies.

73
00:06:34.379 --> 00:06:43.500
Because as is now kind of well known, Terry Nation's estate has the rights to the Daleks.

74
00:06:43.560 --> 00:06:45.180
They're not owned by the BBC.

75
00:06:45.240 --> 00:06:49.680
And so they needed to get the estate's permission to use the Daleks.

76
00:06:49.740 --> 00:06:53.220
And for a while it didn't look like they were going to be able to.

77
00:06:53.279 --> 00:06:56.639
And Rob Shearman found himself having to write several versions of the story.

78
00:06:56.699 --> 00:07:04.740
And yes, and there was the one that, you know, now we all know, because I think we've all read the writer's tale, haven't we?

79
00:07:04.860 --> 00:07:07.920
Um, it became the Toclophane in series 3.

80
00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:19.920
And like, I think they, I don't think they changed much of that. like that whole concept of them being balls of like, you know, little human mutants from the far, far end of time.

81
00:07:19.980 --> 00:07:22.379
Yeah, yeah, that spoke like children.

82
00:07:22.439 --> 00:07:25.800
That was in this version of Absence of the Daleks.

83
00:07:25.860 --> 00:07:28.319
And then they went, hey, that's a great idea.

84
00:07:28.379 --> 00:07:30.360
Let's use it the end of series three.

85
00:07:30.420 --> 00:07:36.360
Yeah, but eventually they, you know, do get nation's permission and I think they end up having to include the Darwin.

86
00:07:36.420 --> 00:07:41.279
We'd think given who Nathan's estate's ancient is.

87
00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:42.660
Oh, who's that?

88
00:07:42.720 --> 00:07:45.420
Well, um, feral virtue.

89
00:07:45.480 --> 00:07:46.500
Oh, really?

90
00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:49.620
So that's Stephen Moffat's mother-in-law.

91
00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:52.500
Look, I mean, I, I, could you misremembering that?

92
00:07:52.560 --> 00:07:56.879
But I thought I thought that his estate, they were still represented by her.

93
00:07:56.939 --> 00:07:57.660
I could have that wrong.

94
00:07:57.720 --> 00:07:58.139
Right.

95
00:07:58.199 --> 00:08:00.300
We'll edit all that out.

96
00:08:00.300 --> 00:08:02.339
Along with all of your things.

97
00:08:02.399 --> 00:08:03.240
Yeah.

98
00:08:03.300 --> 00:08:04.800
And then you'll re-record the good bits.

99
00:08:04.860 --> 00:08:05.579
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

100
00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:06.540
I always do.

101
00:08:12.360 --> 00:08:21.959
I think, though, you needed to use Dalek as a title because it's almost as a, it's kind of like a back to basics, you know, unplugged album for the Daleks in many ways.

102
00:08:22.019 --> 00:08:28.680
You know, you only get the one dalek, but it's also a way of telling Dalek stories, again, that don't rely on or place Davros at the centre of them.

103
00:08:28.740 --> 00:08:39.600
And I think, you know, we needed to have Dalek there to sort of, you know, as you say, beat up the publicity and the sort of awareness that this was Doctor Who and it was coming back and so were the Daleks and that's really important.

104
00:08:39.659 --> 00:08:58.080
But I think in terms of the way in which the Daleks are portrayed here. really important because, you know, it's like, again, that 21st century reimagining that it's kind of like they've had 26 years of the Daleks and then 16 years to think about what did work and what didn't work, what they got right and what they got wrong and reinvented in that way.

105
00:08:58.139 --> 00:08:59.820
I think this does it really well.

106
00:08:59.879 --> 00:09:04.259
I mean, I could go on here and to stop me if at this point I shouldn't.

107
00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:05.759
No, no, go on.

108
00:09:05.820 --> 00:09:13.919
So I think we see like the Daleks are on the par of the time lords. you know, there's reference to the great time war and they were the 2 sort of antagonists in it.

109
00:09:13.980 --> 00:09:21.720
So it sort of elevates the dialects as equal to the the time lords who are, you know, the most powerful, you know, race in in the Doctor Who universe, if you like.

110
00:09:21.960 --> 00:09:25.679
But, you know, you know, we had all the imagining of us.

111
00:09:25.740 --> 00:09:33.600
As you said, you know, the toilet plunger and the way that it can turn around quicker than the QE 2 after all, and, you know, it can do a 1000-0000000 calculations every second.

112
00:09:33.659 --> 00:09:37.440
You know, it's absolutely impenetrable because it's got like a force field around it.

113
00:09:37.500 --> 00:09:38.879
It can climb stairs.

114
00:09:38.940 --> 00:09:56.039
Like all of that needed to be there, I think, because it reinvents the Daleks in a way that makes it a credible threat for the 21st century rather than, you know, sort of shuffling down corridors and not being able to see outside a sort of peripheral vision sort of thing, like you get in some 70s runaround stories.

115
00:09:56.100 --> 00:09:58.860
I think that's, you know, it does that really well and he needed to.

116
00:09:58.980 --> 00:10:14.340
I also think too, that it makes it personal as well, because we've had the time war, the last great time war kind of teased for episodes, and we've seen the consequences of it in rows and in the unquiet dead.

117
00:10:14.460 --> 00:10:22.559
Um, you know, it's been a thing and a thing that we've been wondering about and now here's where we find out who it involves.

118
00:10:22.620 --> 00:10:38.940
And so you've got the doctor who hates the Daleks, not just because, you know, he encountered them on a planet in the middle of a mercury swamp or whatever, at some point in the past, but because they killed all of his people and they put him in a position.

119
00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:41.519
We discover where he had to wipe them all out.

120
00:10:41.580 --> 00:10:45.059
Like, you know, they made him a genocide.

121
00:10:45.240 --> 00:10:57.600
And so I don't think we've ever seen anything quite like the doctor's reaction to the Dalek when he 1st realises what it is, where he's literally foaming at the mouth, isn't he?

122
00:10:57.659 --> 00:11:01.860
And he mocks it and he tries to kill it.

123
00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:20.700
And look, just last week in Aliens of London, we had him in 2 minds about whether he should be, you know, taking Rose's life into his own hands, um, putting her at risk to, possibly save the human race from the sort of, I cannot.

124
00:11:21.059 --> 00:11:22.200
I cannot say Sloveen.

125
00:11:22.259 --> 00:11:24.360
Oh my god, what sort of Doctor Who fan am I?

126
00:11:24.419 --> 00:11:33.240
Um, and then this week he, he, like the threat of the Dalek basically leads him to, you know, like let her die.

127
00:11:33.299 --> 00:11:34.500
Yeah, he sacrificed.

128
00:11:34.500 --> 00:11:36.059
He's willing to, he's willing to sacrifice her.

129
00:11:36.179 --> 00:11:37.919
Yeah, yeah. to stop the Dalek.

130
00:11:37.980 --> 00:11:57.059
He, like, you know, the threat of the Dalek in, in this universe, because of what happened in the time war, because of how scarred he is as a character, his new best friend who he wasn't willing to kill, you know, to let it be killed last week, is just thrown away because Dixie has to save, save the planet from this Dalek.

131
00:11:57.120 --> 00:12:02.039
It's uh, sort of, you know, dramatically shows the threat.

132
00:12:02.460 --> 00:12:08.940
I have to say that that, for me, that's one of the stories, weak moments because then he just goes, oh, well, screw it.

133
00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:09.240
Okay.

134
00:12:09.299 --> 00:12:11.159
I'll let it lift. you know.

135
00:12:11.220 --> 00:12:13.919
And I think they just about sell it.

136
00:12:13.980 --> 00:12:20.039
He's had the opportunity to make the decision once and that's as many times as you can possibly bear to make that decision.

137
00:12:20.100 --> 00:12:27.659
But, you know, it's a huge dramatic moment that is almost immediately undermined by him saying, oh, well, I'll open the door after.

138
00:12:27.720 --> 00:12:30.899
Well, that would be like the episode one into episode 2 Cliffhanger.

139
00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:33.179
Yeah, I guess so.

140
00:12:33.659 --> 00:12:36.120
Okay, I'll open the door then.

141
00:12:37.139 --> 00:12:39.600
I'm not so sure though, Nathan.

142
00:12:39.659 --> 00:12:45.659
Like, it becomes very quickly where, you know, he's able to sort of say, yeah, okay, I'll sacrifice Rose and then, you know, he has that 2nd chance and he saves her.

143
00:12:45.720 --> 00:12:56.159
But there's something sort of metaphorical about the way in which, you know, you put the doctor up against the Dalek, and the doctor becomes more like the Dalek, and through rows, the Dalek becomes more of a human.

144
00:12:56.220 --> 00:13:03.539
There's that sort of wonderful cross, you know, the paths that the 2 characters sort of take along this particular story.

145
00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:05.399
I think the way that that's done is really quite beautiful.

146
00:13:05.460 --> 00:13:13.200
You know, the doctor sort of descends into hell, whereas the Dalek sort of ascends, you know, up to level one and into the light before sort of coming to sacrifice itself.

147
00:13:13.259 --> 00:13:16.679
I don't know, I think I think he kind of works dramatically there for me.

148
00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:19.019
I agree with you about that.

149
00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:34.860
I do think that having Rose and the doctor split up, not just so that they can sort of explore different parts of this exciting new world they find themselves in, but so that they can have different responses to the dalek that aren't kind of cross-pollinated.

150
00:13:34.919 --> 00:13:37.200
You know, Rose doesn't know what a dalek is.

151
00:13:37.259 --> 00:13:37.799
Exactly.

152
00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:40.679
And all she sees is someone being tortured.

153
00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:44.759
And like, I think it's telling that it's set in America too.

154
00:13:44.879 --> 00:13:53.820
Just, you know, after the abuses in the in the Iraq war. that, you know, torturing prisoners is is something that...

155
00:13:53.820 --> 00:13:55.740
Well, that an equal...

156
00:13:55.799 --> 00:14:06.659
Yeah, well, Abu Garai, in Iraq itself, where there were famous photos only, you know, very briefly before this, of prisoners being tortured.

157
00:14:07.139 --> 00:14:14.700
You know, the British Board of Film classification gave us the 12 certificate because of the torture scenes.

158
00:14:14.759 --> 00:14:18.659
Yeah, specifically the scenes of the doctor torturing the Darlin.

159
00:14:18.779 --> 00:14:19.620
Yeah, yeah.

160
00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:23.580
I think they would set, you know, turn the hero into into a sadist.

161
00:14:23.639 --> 00:14:27.059
Yeah, there was some talk about giving it an M rating here.

162
00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:32.220
I don't know if they'd ever eventuated, but it is darker than Eccleston's gone.

163
00:14:32.279 --> 00:14:35.700
And again, he's still finding his feet here.

164
00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:42.720
There are bits that I don't think he pulls off completely, but certainly that bit where he confronts the Dalek is absolutely compelling.

165
00:14:42.840 --> 00:15:09.659
Apparently, as written, the scene where he initially confronts the Dalek, was written by Rob Sherman as more him mocking it, and belittling it, but not responding to it so aggressively. and Eccleston imbued it with all of the anger and and seething hatred.

166
00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:11.100
It's so amazing, isn't it?

167
00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:12.960
Because we're used to the doctor mocking his enemies.

168
00:15:13.019 --> 00:15:14.399
That's one of the things that he does.

169
00:15:14.460 --> 00:15:16.980
He laughs at people who are evil.

170
00:15:17.039 --> 00:15:22.320
But when he's saying, you know, poor little thing to the dalek, he's really taunting it, it's not funny.

171
00:15:22.379 --> 00:15:24.600
It's not something that we can laugh along with him.

172
00:15:24.659 --> 00:15:29.940
He is really, really quite, quite emotionally damaged.

173
00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:31.740
Yeah. and abusive.

174
00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:44.759
But that makes sense, though, given the trajectory of the character, like what we know of it since in terms of the time war and how he's the survivor and sort of lone survivor and has that survivor's guilt and has also done some pretty terrible things in the not too distant past.

175
00:15:44.820 --> 00:15:46.440
And Eccleston himself.

176
00:15:46.500 --> 00:15:54.899
I mean, if there is one actor to have played the role, who is capable of that kind of, you know, not just gravitas, but anger and that sort of, you know, crossing the line as the doctor.

177
00:15:54.960 --> 00:15:57.120
I think it's him and I think he really works for me.

178
00:15:57.179 --> 00:16:00.600
That's why you employ Christopher Eccleston to play a dramatic role.

179
00:16:00.659 --> 00:16:01.019
Exactly.

180
00:16:01.080 --> 00:16:09.539
You give him meaty, sort of emotionally weighty, angry, sort of broken people to play because he's bloody good at it.

181
00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:10.379
He's brilliant.

182
00:16:10.440 --> 00:16:28.379
In fact, in Day of the Doctor, I was actually slightly disappointed that they gave the role of wiping out the Daleks and Time Lords to another doctor that we hadn't heard of before, because I kind of thought it would have been interesting to see Eccleston do that.

183
00:16:28.440 --> 00:16:34.019
And I know that, you know, they couldn't get Eccleston for whatever reason, and they did quite a good job of getting around that.

184
00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:37.200
We didn't negotiate with him until quite late in the day as well.

185
00:16:37.259 --> 00:16:37.799
Yeah.

186
00:16:37.860 --> 00:16:50.879
But that would have been amazing, that the person who done that wasn't, you know, this dark secret that the doctor had sort of disavowed, that was one of the doctors that we loved, that Rose had loved, you know, someone that we knew had done that.

187
00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:57.179
Though if you've listened to the Big Finnish War Doctor stories, you might change your mind.

188
00:17:01.620 --> 00:17:04.440
I don't know, but then you get the chance of getting John.

189
00:17:04.500 --> 00:17:05.460
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

190
00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:06.059
No, no, no.

191
00:17:06.660 --> 00:17:06.839
Exactly.

192
00:17:06.900 --> 00:17:07.680
It turned out.

193
00:17:07.740 --> 00:17:09.839
It turned out for the best.

194
00:17:09.900 --> 00:17:17.400
Jacqueline Pierce playing basically a time lady version of... of the quarantine Greek.

195
00:17:17.460 --> 00:17:17.940
Okay.

196
00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:19.619
Franzine Greek I should say.

197
00:17:27.539 --> 00:17:30.119
Can we talk about some of the guest stars?

198
00:17:30.180 --> 00:17:30.839
Oh, yes.

199
00:17:30.900 --> 00:17:34.140
So, we have Henry Van Staten.

200
00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:35.759
What do we think?

201
00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:39.299
I cringed when I rewatched this episode the other day?

202
00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:40.140
Did he?

203
00:17:40.200 --> 00:17:42.119
Yeah, I mean, I think you're supposed to.

204
00:17:42.180 --> 00:17:45.599
I think maybe I cringed in 2005?

205
00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:52.980
And look, I think that's he's a big comedy obnoxious brash American stereotype.

206
00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:57.779
So, like, I don't think that's not what they were going for.

207
00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:02.579
I don't think it's him playing the part badly, but I just found it uncomfortable to watch.

208
00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:06.420
I think there's an element of like intent around that as well.

209
00:18:06.539 --> 00:18:08.160
Like, you know, the doctor mocks him.

210
00:18:08.220 --> 00:18:13.859
He says he wants to touch the stars, but the only way that he can do it is by dragging them down to earth and burying them with something along those lives.

211
00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:23.279
There's a real sort of collective vibe to him, both, you know, in terms of the literal sense. kind of like a John Fowles collector sense and even here's a deep cut.

212
00:18:23.339 --> 00:18:28.319
A bit like John Blum and Kate Ormond collector in unnatural history, or even light in ghostlight.

213
00:18:28.380 --> 00:18:36.359
There's someone who sort of has a very narrow view of the entire universe and he comes across as entirely ridiculous when pitted against the Dalek.

214
00:18:36.420 --> 00:18:38.099
You know, he says, I am Henry Van Staden.

215
00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:38.880
Now recognise me.

216
00:18:38.940 --> 00:18:47.279
He's so irrelevant in the overall scheme of things, and, you know, there's that lovely sort of irony, I guess, that we can see as a result of that.

217
00:18:47.339 --> 00:18:51.599
He's meant to come across as faintly comedic to me.

218
00:18:51.660 --> 00:19:05.099
I think his best bit is actually when he's looking directly into the Dalek eyepiece and we get the Dalek point of view and he demands, you know, that the Daleks speak to him and his face is all kind of inflated and stuff like that.

219
00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:08.220
I think I think that is really great.

220
00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:08.819
Yeah, yeah.

221
00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:12.059
I mean, like I said, I think, you know, that's very deliberate.

222
00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:12.480
Yeah.

223
00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:13.440
The character is rich.

224
00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:13.920
I think so.

225
00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:14.940
To be more.

226
00:19:15.059 --> 00:19:16.319
Yeah, it deflates him.

227
00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:17.220
For his hubris.

228
00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:27.480
Yeah, like I actually found him a lot like some of the sort of scary and unpleasant kind of tech guys that we have now, like Zuckerberg and Bezos and Mark. mask.

229
00:19:27.539 --> 00:19:29.579
I wouldn't say that too loudly.

230
00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:31.440
You don't want to be banned with Facebook.

231
00:19:32.220 --> 00:19:34.619
I think he's meant to evoke that.

232
00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:40.440
Yeah, wasn't wasn't the initial name of the character meant to be Will Fencers as a play on Bill Gates?

233
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:41.160
Yes.

234
00:19:41.819 --> 00:19:43.440
Yes, it was.

235
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:47.039
Yeah. appalling. fences what?

236
00:19:47.460 --> 00:19:48.839
Sorry.

237
00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:54.900
No, he just sounds like one of the pint people in the patrol, I think.

238
00:19:55.140 --> 00:19:57.660
But I love Goddard.

239
00:19:57.720 --> 00:20:03.660
I just think, um, so his sidekick, the fabulous sidekick, who is the um, Crow Timman of the thing.

240
00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:06.240
You know why she's called Goddard?

241
00:20:06.299 --> 00:20:09.539
Jane Goddard is Rob Shem.

242
00:20:09.599 --> 00:20:10.619
Sheman's wife's name.

243
00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:11.099
Yeah.

244
00:20:11.099 --> 00:20:15.059
Also, um, you read it.

245
00:20:15.059 --> 00:20:15.900
Prevention.

246
00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:16.619
Yeah, yeah, we met.

247
00:20:16.619 --> 00:20:17.880
Yeah, yeah.

248
00:20:17.940 --> 00:20:19.799
We got to meet Rob Shearman.

249
00:20:19.859 --> 00:20:23.579
And he was introduced to his wife by Katie Manning.

250
00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:24.599
Oh wow.

251
00:20:24.900 --> 00:20:27.960
Because they I think they went to school together.

252
00:20:28.019 --> 00:20:28.559
Right.

253
00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:32.700
Or, you know, at least have known each other since like Rada or something.

254
00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:34.440
And he's such a lovely man.

255
00:20:34.500 --> 00:20:37.799
Yeah, yeah, he is really hasn't written for shape since.

256
00:20:37.859 --> 00:20:51.119
Like, I don't know why, but I can't help thinking that being assigned one episode to write and having to write a whole bunch of scripts as the demands change meant that it was, you know, more work than he'd expected.

257
00:20:51.180 --> 00:20:53.339
I think also he's more of an author.

258
00:20:53.400 --> 00:21:05.519
And in that, like, sorry, an hauteur, he tends to write very idiosyncratic, you know, like you can tell something is written by Rob Sherman.

259
00:21:05.579 --> 00:21:08.400
Particularly big finish. and Jubilee.

260
00:21:08.460 --> 00:21:10.980
Yeah, and the Holy Terror.

261
00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:15.359
Yeah, which is dark and twisted and amazing.

262
00:21:15.420 --> 00:21:25.440
Um, and I think being rewritten and rewritten and rewritten kind of robs it of a lot of the Rob Shermanness.

263
00:21:25.500 --> 00:21:31.740
It's dark, but it's not as kind of weirdly dark and comedic as his big finish stuff.

264
00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:40.019
It has kind of been sort of sandpapered a bit so that it fits into a particular space in the season and a particular tone that they're going for.

265
00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:41.940
Yeah, I think that's right.

266
00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:45.180
Rob Shearman, I think, claims that he's never watched Dalek.

267
00:21:45.299 --> 00:21:50.220
It's the only Doctor Who episode that he hasn't been able to bring himself to watch.

268
00:21:50.339 --> 00:21:52.619
That's really rather sweet.

269
00:21:52.740 --> 00:21:57.539
Yeah, no, he can sort of barely believe that he wrote for Doctor Who all these years later.

270
00:21:59.579 --> 00:22:02.460
Maybe Chipnall can bring him back.

271
00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:12.720
We don't have pics of the week this week, but Rob Schumann and Toby Hadoke have written 2 books called Running Through Corridors, in which they just email their reactions.

272
00:22:12.779 --> 00:22:26.160
They watch 2 episodes a day and they email their reactions to each other at the end of the day and their brief is to be positive to find something really good to say about every episode and it's absolutely wonderful.

273
00:22:26.220 --> 00:22:31.500
It's a really fun kind of, well, let's call it a flight through entirety.

274
00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:40.380
It's a really fun kind of trip through the history of Doctor Who by people who really kind of know how TV works and have a lot of knowledge of the of the show.

275
00:22:42.299 --> 00:22:44.759
People sitting on a couch blowing.

276
00:22:44.819 --> 00:22:45.599
I think I read this.

277
00:22:46.259 --> 00:22:49.920
But I can really strongly recommend it.

278
00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:56.640
And he's, he, how very lovely he is absolutely comes across in running through corridors.

279
00:22:56.700 --> 00:22:59.160
So that's available in all good bookstores everywhere.

280
00:23:02.220 --> 00:23:07.740
So Goddard, who is the last woman standing, and she gets to do lots of comedy as well.

281
00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:21.720
She's the one who wipes his memory and when Van Staten wants the president replaced, you know, she wants it to be a Democrat because they're just so funny, you know, she does get a lot of the best lines.

282
00:23:21.779 --> 00:23:33.119
And even after the sort of huge disaster has happened at the end, she gets to sort of take us out with sort of funny gags, you know, about Van Stanton's ultimate fame.

283
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:35.460
No, I think she's great.

284
00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:37.920
I love how hypercompetent, but also ambitious she is.

285
00:23:37.980 --> 00:23:45.720
You know, the 1st thing that we see of her is that she slots seamlessly and quickly into the place of the number 2 role the moment the...

286
00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:56.640
She just slips in there whilst the other guy's been carted off to become a, you know, a junkie somewhere beginning with M. No, she's fabulous.

287
00:23:56.700 --> 00:23:59.220
And she's sort of crowds him and only funny.

288
00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:08.759
So, the other big guest star is, of course, Bruno Langley's Adam.

289
00:24:08.819 --> 00:24:17.220
I think it's hilarious that, you know, what we get with, uh, in terms of a 1st full scene that he has with Rose, he starts to mansplain aliens to Rose.

290
00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:19.380
I just found that incredibly funny.

291
00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:26.099
And she does, like, this is, you know, a decade before the word mansplain comes into the vocabulary.

292
00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:28.920
I love her where she licks her teeth as he's doing it.

293
00:24:28.980 --> 00:24:31.500
Like, oh, this guy doesn't know it.

294
00:24:31.559 --> 00:24:33.420
I mean he's such a dork.

295
00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:43.079
Yeah, she just bites her tongue and then says, you know, he says something like, I think they're all, they're all crazy, you know, those people who talk about aliens and she goes, yeah, you're probably right.

296
00:24:43.140 --> 00:24:51.779
In fact, I kind of like that because, you know, that is kind of how the audience at home would react to someone who thought they'd seen aliens.

297
00:24:51.900 --> 00:24:52.619
Do you know what I mean?

298
00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:58.920
And I just thought it was terribly funny that Rose maintained that attitude, even, you know, having seen all these aliens.

299
00:24:58.980 --> 00:24:59.160
Yeah.

300
00:24:59.220 --> 00:25:01.019
Actually, they're mostly just not cases.

301
00:25:01.079 --> 00:25:02.640
I thought that was terribly cute.

302
00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:13.259
And there is a little bit of a sort of an attempt to give them a little bit of a sort of romantic scene and it's not something I think that is particularly overwritten.

303
00:25:13.380 --> 00:25:20.700
Like it's not like what we'll get in a few weeks time with, you know, Rose and Jack, but there is a sort of low-key thing.

304
00:25:20.759 --> 00:25:22.799
She clearly finds him a bit attractive.

305
00:25:22.859 --> 00:25:24.059
He finds her attractive.

306
00:25:24.119 --> 00:25:33.059
You know, and Van Staten immediately casts them in that role by, you know, sending her off with him to canoodle or spoon or whatever it is you breeds do.

307
00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:33.420
Yeah.

308
00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:44.400
Speaking of, speaking of canoodling, Media Watch UK, which is the organisation that used to be the national viewers and listeners association.

309
00:25:44.460 --> 00:25:46.559
Ooh, Mary White House.

310
00:25:46.619 --> 00:25:48.119
Yes, yes.

311
00:25:48.180 --> 00:25:52.859
They're back They, um, well, I think they changed their name briefly before this.

312
00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:55.019
So they were.

313
00:25:55.019 --> 00:25:57.599
Clean up national TV originally and then...

314
00:25:57.599 --> 00:25:58.319
Oh, what's it called?

315
00:25:58.380 --> 00:25:59.940
Cleanup TV society.

316
00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:00.299
Okay.

317
00:26:00.299 --> 00:26:07.500
And, yeah, and then they they became Media watch UK and they're like, I think in like 2008, 2009.

318
00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:09.720
They had a lot to say about this.

319
00:26:09.779 --> 00:26:10.500
Really?

320
00:26:10.619 --> 00:26:24.539
Yeah, so they, um, they complained that certain parts of the episode, including the torture scenes and the, um, you know, the doctor being x-rayed, um, were, were Cedo masochistic torture.

321
00:26:24.660 --> 00:26:27.539
Oh, and they take his shirt off. have we not mentioned that?

322
00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:28.559
He's very skinny.

323
00:26:28.619 --> 00:26:30.299
Yes, he is very skinny.

324
00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:36.240
And they brought up the canoodling scene as well. and said it was inappropriate sexual language.

325
00:26:36.299 --> 00:26:36.839
What?

326
00:26:36.839 --> 00:26:39.539
Bizarre.

327
00:26:39.539 --> 00:26:41.640
Children's private television series.

328
00:26:41.700 --> 00:26:42.839
Wow.

329
00:26:42.900 --> 00:26:46.319
I don't think they know what the widdling is over there at me.

330
00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:47.220
Yes, they did.

331
00:26:48.119 --> 00:26:54.539
Oh, that just reminds me of the Dame Dasiri cart, what's episodes of the goodies?

332
00:26:54.599 --> 00:26:56.099
What do we think the Goodies podcast?

333
00:26:56.220 --> 00:26:57.240
We're doing it now, darling.

334
00:27:00.299 --> 00:27:01.920
We'll put that in the show notes.

335
00:27:01.980 --> 00:27:20.039
Yeah, I think he's, like, I actually kind of like the idea and, you know, at this point in the, in the show, we don't know how it's going to go, like with hindsight, we know that the cast will change every year and, you know, that we'll get Captain Jack coming in for a few episodes and things.

336
00:27:20.099 --> 00:27:22.799
But, you know, when he goes off in the Tartars at the end.

337
00:27:22.859 --> 00:27:25.440
We don't know how that's going to play out.

338
00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:30.420
And it's certainly nothing like what's happened in the old series.

339
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:34.319
You know, But we have that kind of list in our head.

340
00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:42.240
You know, our roster of people who count as companions who don't, and you know, Sarah Kingdom, yes, Brett Vion, no, the brigadier.

341
00:27:42.299 --> 00:27:46.559
Yes, because he was in the Tardis that one time, maybe, or whatever.

342
00:27:46.619 --> 00:27:52.200
And you can see Russell kind of wanting to break that as a concept.

343
00:27:52.259 --> 00:27:57.299
And so Adam gets to go into the TARDIS for 2 episodes, spoiler alert.

344
00:27:57.359 --> 00:27:59.519
So he doesn't really count as a companion.

345
00:27:59.579 --> 00:28:03.240
I think, well, he gets into taught us one episode.

346
00:28:03.299 --> 00:28:04.380
You don't see him in the title.

347
00:28:04.440 --> 00:28:04.799
Yeah, no.

348
00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:06.180
There are no charter scenes.

349
00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:06.900
Yeah, that's true.

350
00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:09.000
I think we touched on this.

351
00:28:09.059 --> 00:28:13.559
Uh, when we did, I mean, it's fun in World War 3 with Max.

352
00:28:14.039 --> 00:28:18.000
The idea that the doctor doesn't have companions anymore.

353
00:28:18.059 --> 00:28:26.039
They kind of got rid of the word and they just became his friends and those friends could jump in and out.

354
00:28:26.099 --> 00:28:33.900
And that comes much more pronounced in the Moffat era, where Amy and Rory might be there, they might not.

355
00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:40.799
It depends on their contracts and whether, you know, they've managed to convince them to come back this week.

356
00:28:41.220 --> 00:28:46.980
And we're recording this just after seeing the series 11 trailer.

357
00:28:47.099 --> 00:28:48.420
Oh, I'm so excited.

358
00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:48.960
Yeah.

359
00:28:49.019 --> 00:28:58.079
And it's entirely possible that this is going out after the season begins. because we haven't got a definite date.

360
00:28:58.140 --> 00:29:00.000
Or maybe after...

361
00:29:00.059 --> 00:29:00.299
Sorry.

362
00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:10.019
So, um, and they very definitely have gone away from the idea that they're companions and, you know, these are the doctor's friends.

363
00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:12.779
And companion was always kind of a weird sort of thing.

364
00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:20.220
And Rosaleva makes fun of that in aliens of London, where, you know, the doctor says, oh, I employed Roses, my companion.

365
00:29:20.220 --> 00:29:22.740
And the policeman says, oh, so you're shagging then?

366
00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:23.579
Is that what's happening?

367
00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:25.559
This is a sexual relation.

368
00:29:26.519 --> 00:29:27.900
Yeah.

369
00:29:27.960 --> 00:29:38.880
So we'll talk more about Adam next week, obviously. and I'm sure that he's going to go into the Hall of Fame of, you know, greatest companions along with Katrina and Dodo, I suppose.

370
00:29:38.940 --> 00:29:42.359
And everything's going to turn out just fine for that young man.

371
00:29:42.420 --> 00:29:43.019
I can just tell.

372
00:29:43.140 --> 00:29:55.920
Do you reckon he's meant to be a bit crap because there's a, there's an underlying theme, I think, to, to companions in in Noohoo, where they almost need to be worthy to enter the Tartars, which certainly wasn't the case in the classic era.

373
00:29:55.980 --> 00:30:00.119
Yeah, I think they, I think they, they actually lampshaded that.

374
00:30:00.299 --> 00:30:04.799
In confidential or some interviews at the time.

375
00:30:04.859 --> 00:30:18.059
Basically, I think Russell Russell said, yes, I wanted to show you what happens when a companion like isn't up to scratch. that takes a certain type of person to travel with the doctor.

376
00:30:18.119 --> 00:30:23.039
They have to, you know, have like the same sort of moral code as him.

377
00:30:23.099 --> 00:30:25.619
They have to be held to a higher standard.

378
00:30:25.619 --> 00:30:33.900
And, and I specifically wanted to actually show what happens when someone who's not up to scratch comes into the TARDIS.

379
00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:39.599
Well, in rows, you know, like rose is just someone completely ordinary, but the doctor is impressed by her.

380
00:30:39.660 --> 00:30:40.380
She's smart.

381
00:30:40.500 --> 00:30:48.480
You know, he's reluctant to take her on board, I think, initially, and tells her to forget him and stuff, but she's smart and funny.

382
00:30:48.539 --> 00:30:50.940
They spark, they laugh together.

383
00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:53.339
She's super brave, all of those kinds of things.

384
00:30:53.400 --> 00:31:04.319
Here kind of Rose wants to take him on board, perhaps, because, well, you know, because she thinks he's pretty, but also because she kind of feels a bit sorry for him.

385
00:31:04.380 --> 00:31:10.500
He's kind of left behind and he really, really wants to see the stars and doesn't think he ever will.

386
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:19.440
But I think that we'll talk more about this next week, but it's more that Adam's her companion for the next story.

387
00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:21.599
Yeah, so she's a dowager aunt.

388
00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:22.500
She is.

389
00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:27.359
He's the doctor's grand companion, I think, probably.

390
00:31:27.420 --> 00:31:28.140
Oh, dear.

391
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:41.880
What do we think at the beginning of the story, the Daleks up to?

392
00:31:41.940 --> 00:31:45.059
Like, Rose meets the Dalek.

393
00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:47.759
She doesn't know anything about the Daleks.

394
00:31:47.819 --> 00:31:51.720
You know, the doc hasn't shown her any pictures or talked about it or anything.

395
00:31:51.720 --> 00:31:56.579
And so all she sees is something being tortured and that she wants to help.

396
00:31:56.640 --> 00:32:08.220
And she responds to it in the way that she has learned, that he responds to, um, to aliens, in the in the last, you know, half a season.

397
00:32:08.279 --> 00:32:11.279
Yeah, yeah, like to the gal. you know, he wanted to help the gal.

398
00:32:11.339 --> 00:32:13.019
He wanted to help the nest team.

399
00:32:13.079 --> 00:32:19.019
So she is basically playing the traditional role that she sees the doctor playing in these stories.

400
00:32:19.079 --> 00:32:21.420
She's going, oh, this poor creature.

401
00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:23.099
It's being tortured.

402
00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:24.480
I feel sorry for it.

403
00:32:24.539 --> 00:32:27.180
I'm not making assumptions about it.

404
00:32:27.240 --> 00:32:40.859
She's not judging it by its appearance, and that's the, you know, that is the main turning point in the story is when she touches it because she's feeling for it, and then that gets 100s of people killed.

405
00:32:40.980 --> 00:32:45.599
And, but it also, it also leads the dalek in a new direction as well.

406
00:32:45.660 --> 00:32:47.339
I think it goes back to that.

407
00:32:47.400 --> 00:32:50.279
We were talking about the David Whittaker conception of the Daleks.

408
00:32:50.339 --> 00:32:55.380
I think the moment that it hears that Rose is a friend of the doctors and has travelled through time.

409
00:32:55.440 --> 00:32:59.339
You know, it's that sort of cunning, calculating aspect of the dialects coming to the fore.

410
00:32:59.400 --> 00:33:02.759
And, you know, it sort of plays on that pity.

411
00:33:02.819 --> 00:33:22.619
It sort of, you know, really sort of tries to get that element of compassion out of her so that when she touches him or it, it regenerates, I think I think that's a really sort of clever way of sort of representing the Daleks is really just, you know, incredibly conniving and incredibly intelligent and being able, just being smarter than you, you know?

412
00:33:22.680 --> 00:33:30.420
But there's a wonderful twist to it because, you know, the compassion that he tries to elicit, it is actually the thing that undoes it, and that is incredible.

413
00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:33.000
That's the best part of the story for me right at the end.

414
00:33:33.059 --> 00:33:34.799
See, you can't kill Daleks.

415
00:33:34.859 --> 00:33:38.460
You can't destroy fascists with guns like the doctor postures in that showdown scene.

416
00:33:38.519 --> 00:33:45.180
It's like only the compassion of the companion here can do that because compassion to a dalek is a corrupting contagion.

417
00:33:45.240 --> 00:33:51.539
Like, it's the only way that Doctor Who could ever destroy the last of the Daleks, and I just love the show for it.

418
00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:58.259
I like too, that there is kind of a sort of crummy science fiction explanation given for what's going on.

419
00:33:58.319 --> 00:34:13.679
But I think it's also just possible to read that she has been kind to the Dalek, and the Dalek has really properly experience that kindness, and that's why it's confused.

420
00:34:13.739 --> 00:34:20.340
You know, it's been taught to hate all other life forms that they're worthless and someone who shows.

421
00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:29.519
It's never had, it's never given itself the chance to, to actually, to see that because they never last long enough.

422
00:34:29.639 --> 00:34:37.199
Yeah, so in one sense, it's a sort of science fiction contagion where her DNA has, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

423
00:34:37.260 --> 00:34:38.039
Yeah, whatever.

424
00:34:38.099 --> 00:34:42.179
But really what has happened is she's shown it kindness.

425
00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:44.039
She's physically touched it.

426
00:34:44.099 --> 00:34:51.659
And it's been moved by that and it no longer finds itself able to muster up the desire to kill.

427
00:34:51.719 --> 00:34:54.960
And I kind of like the complexity of it as well.

428
00:34:55.019 --> 00:35:03.480
I mean, the story needs the dalek to die at the end and it kind of forecloses any possibility that any of our characters are going to kill it.

429
00:35:03.539 --> 00:35:04.920
We can't have the doctor killing it.

430
00:35:04.980 --> 00:35:08.219
So, you know, it decides to kill itself.

431
00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:13.260
And that's a moment that Rose, I think, finds difficult to deal with.

432
00:35:13.380 --> 00:35:42.179
You know, there's a sort of a weird thing where she's had compassion for the dalek, but also recognises it as something really evil, you know, that it still does, it's conflicted about whether to kill everyone or not, you know, and certainly the look on Billy Piper's face when it's kind of enunciating that kind of moral dilemma shows a sort of, There is a level of disgust there.

433
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:51.360
But just the sheer simplicity of what it wants instead of killing, it wants to feel the sun on its face one last time before it kills itself.

434
00:35:51.420 --> 00:35:56.579
Wouldn't it have been just beautiful if they'd never brought the Dalux back?

435
00:35:56.639 --> 00:35:58.920
Yeah, that's been the ending.

436
00:35:59.579 --> 00:36:03.000
They would have been something quite poetic about that.

437
00:36:03.059 --> 00:36:03.659
I agree.

438
00:36:03.719 --> 00:36:05.099
Yeah, absolutely.

439
00:36:05.159 --> 00:36:07.320
Yeah, then ruined it at the end of the series.

440
00:36:07.380 --> 00:36:07.860
Yeah.

441
00:36:07.860 --> 00:36:12.599
But an act of kindness is the last thing in the time war.

442
00:36:12.659 --> 00:36:14.880
It's the thing that puts the time war to rest.

443
00:36:14.940 --> 00:36:16.380
Such a gorgeous idea.

444
00:36:16.440 --> 00:36:20.460
It just isn't doable because you have to have the dalek, I think.

445
00:36:20.519 --> 00:36:24.119
I mean, maybe if Dalek had happened in the last, you know, in series 43.

446
00:36:25.619 --> 00:36:33.000
And I also kind of like the way that she confronts the doctor as well, that the dalek turns the doctor into a man with a gun.

447
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:40.679
And, you know, we had that line, which I can't believe we haven't mentioned before now, that you would make a great dalek.

448
00:36:40.739 --> 00:36:51.360
I think it's another reason why the title Dalek is, you know, with no article and not plural is a perfect title for this because it's not.

449
00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:53.280
Who is the Dalek, yeah.

450
00:36:53.340 --> 00:37:01.440
And the doctor runs up there with a massively ludicrous science fiction gun, you know, as big as he can possibly carry.

451
00:37:04.500 --> 00:37:08.760
In order to kill the dalek and she won't let it happen because he's a man with a gun.

452
00:37:08.760 --> 00:37:15.960
And this is something sick and sad and conflicted that just wants to feel freedom for a moment.

453
00:37:16.019 --> 00:37:18.360
And you're breaking the format of the program.

454
00:37:19.019 --> 00:37:21.840
But I think this is what Dalek does, right?

455
00:37:21.900 --> 00:37:36.119
I mean, again, we talked about it sort of reimagining the Daleks in a very sort of uh 21st century way, but part of that also is the nuance or the sort of complexity of the characterisation of the dalek and what's the motivation of it as well as also the motivation of the doctor, you know?

456
00:37:36.179 --> 00:37:50.880
I really think in that regard, like the setting of the story is really important, rather, in the way that that story is told, you know, it's kind of like the descendant into the underworld and the ascent back into the light, from the depths of hell, you know, you have, yeah, sure, the TARDIS arrives in the bowels of the earth.

457
00:37:50.940 --> 00:38:05.159
It's sort of very much sort of, you know, hearkens back to Heracles and Odysseus, Orpheus, Aeneas and Dante, but it's the metaphorical dimensions, I reckon, of that structure that fascinate me more because it's neither the doctrine nor the Dalek are entirely good or evil in this one.

458
00:38:05.219 --> 00:38:09.059
It's not a nice, safe, clear sort of binary where the doctors, the hero.

459
00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:10.920
This is the Dalek and they're the villains.

460
00:38:10.980 --> 00:38:16.019
Instead, they're kind of like, there's almost like they're the same, or the different sides of the same coin.

461
00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:19.139
You know, they're both survivors of the last time war.

462
00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:26.400
You know, they're both sort of alone in the universe in that regard, but they just happen to sort of be opposite ends of that spectrum.

463
00:38:26.460 --> 00:38:31.739
And, you know, it's sort of Jungen in many ways as well. you know, the archetypes of the self and the shadow.

464
00:38:31.739 --> 00:38:34.739
And those are aspects of the same self.

465
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:47.400
And this is what I really like about Dalek, in terms of the way in which the morality of the doctor is questioned, and maybe even the sort of qualities of the dalek, in terms of it being able to be redeemed are also brought up.

466
00:38:47.460 --> 00:38:48.840
Whereas before, I don't think we've ever had that.

467
00:38:48.900 --> 00:38:53.219
No, I mean, we had the human factor, didn't we, in Evil of the Daleks.

468
00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:54.659
Evil of the Daleks, yeah.

469
00:38:54.719 --> 00:38:57.360
But I think there's quite a touching moment too.

470
00:38:57.420 --> 00:39:07.500
When the Dalek and the doctor are talking to one another on the screen and the Dalek says we're the same, you know, like neither of us have any orders coming, what do we do now?

471
00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:42.780
Well, they listen, we've tucked out him in and read him a bedtime story, so it only remains to whisk him off to somewhere in Earth's distant future.

472
00:39:42.840 --> 00:39:48.059
You'll see how that turns out in next week's episode, where we'll be discussing the long game.

473
00:39:48.179 --> 00:39:55.980
In the meantime, you can find us at flightthroughentirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at FTE podcast on Twitter.

474
00:39:56.099 --> 00:39:57.719
Where can people find you, Stephen?

475
00:39:57.780 --> 00:40:14.219
Ah, well, you can find new to who on Twitter at Sunudahoo podcast and also on Facebook, or you can email us at uh new to who podcast at gmail.com, and all our episodes can be found on our website, www.nudahoo.com, uh or on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts.

476
00:40:14.340 --> 00:40:21.840
Over on Bondfinger, you can find some fabulous James Bond commentary podcasts all recorded at different levels of inebriation.

477
00:40:21.900 --> 00:40:27.599
That's bondfinger.com, bondfinger on Facebook and Apple Podcasts, and at bondfingercast on Twitter.

478
00:40:27.659 --> 00:40:34.980
Until next time, may the blaster you're using defend off the latest Dalek onslaught not turn out to be yet another hairdryer.

479
00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:36.780
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

480
00:40:36.840 --> 00:40:37.320
Good night.

481
00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:37.800
Good night.

482
00:40:40.860 --> 00:40:45.480
That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottley, Stephen B. and James Selwood.

483
00:40:45.539 --> 00:40:49.260
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, strings performance by Jane Orberg.

484
00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:56.460
This episode to Mansplain Aliens was recorded on the 22nd of July 2018 and released on the 30th of September.

485
00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:06.840
We regret to inform our billionaire listeners that Henry Van Stanton's upcoming spaceflight around the moon has been cancelled.

486
00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:12.659
And if you see Mr. Van Staten anywhere, please ask him if he knows where the keys to the space rocket are.

487
00:41:13.260 --> 00:41:15.059
Oh, well thank you.

488
00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:15.780
You were so great.

489
00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:16.920
That was so awesome.

490
00:41:16.980 --> 00:41:20.340
I kind of felt like James and I were wittering on James mostly.

491
00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:21.960
But I was kind of wittering on.

492
00:41:22.019 --> 00:41:26.039
But that was some really, really good stuff.

493
00:41:26.099 --> 00:41:28.559
And it's such a great episode.

494
00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:32.280
You know, there is so much good stuff to say about it.

495
00:41:33.539 --> 00:41:36.599
Yeah, you need more about this than I am.

496
00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:45.119
No, I just sort of go off on my tangents, but you guys keep it together in terms of just, you know, bringing the actual sort of story through.

497
00:41:45.179 --> 00:41:59.940
I sort of get lost in the allegorical and the metaphorical sort of aspects of it because I really, it's really what struck me, even when I 1st saw it, it was just like, 0 my god, this is like postmodern good and evil for Doctor Who in the 21st century.

498
00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:02.099
I just, that's the abiding memory that I have of the story.

499
00:42:02.219 --> 00:42:13.679
Oh, it's even it's like the Orpheus thing too, of getting as far as sunlight. you know, like getting, you know, within sight of daylight and then going back down to hell.

500
00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:18.539
And like heaps of Russell stories have that sort of verticality to them as well.

501
00:42:18.599 --> 00:42:34.079
Like, I know this is Shearman, but, but, you know, we are constantly going up and down in, um, the end of the world and in New Earth, um, you know, that's something that he he likes to do, just to create.

502
00:42:34.079 --> 00:42:35.159
Yeah, the long game.

503
00:42:35.159 --> 00:42:36.420
The long game.

504
00:42:36.420 --> 00:42:40.019
Yeah, yeah, yeah, people are like trying to...

505
00:42:40.019 --> 00:42:42.780
The last story, parting of the ways, is all about that.

506
00:42:42.780 --> 00:42:43.739
Of course it is, right?

507
00:42:44.340 --> 00:42:45.900
Yeah, trying to go to level 400.

508
00:42:46.019 --> 00:42:46.679
Yeah.

509
00:42:46.739 --> 00:42:49.139
Oh, see, this should have been in the podcast.

510
00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:49.920
Well it can be.

511
00:42:49.980 --> 00:42:51.119
It'll be the tag.

512
00:42:52.380 --> 00:42:54.480
Just remember it for next week.

513
00:42:55.199 --> 00:42:57.000
Yeah, yeah.

514
00:42:57.059 --> 00:42:58.440
I will remember it for a thing.

515
00:42:58.500 --> 00:42:59.460
So we've got...