WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:08:57 1 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:43.020 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flightthrough Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast, which sounds like it got here just in time. 2 00:00:43.079 --> 00:00:44.280 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:44.340 --> 00:00:46.560 I'm Todd, and I'm Peter back for more. 4 00:00:46.619 --> 00:00:50.219 Well, a couple of scripts have fallen through and there's not much going on. 5 00:00:50.280 --> 00:00:54.060 So this week we've decided to hang around Cardiff Bay and have dinner with an old friend. 6 00:00:54.119 --> 00:00:55.979 It's time for Boomtown. 7 00:01:11.040 --> 00:01:13.980 Well, I think this is the episode that no one expected. 8 00:01:14.099 --> 00:01:15.180 Yeah. 9 00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:16.079 Least of all me. 10 00:01:16.140 --> 00:01:25.140 Like, I mean, personally, I don't think the Celine were terribly successful in their realisation in the previous two parter, and I wouldn't have put my hand up to say, let's bring them back. 11 00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:29.280 But having been in the situation where they have brought them back. 12 00:01:29.340 --> 00:01:34.140 Russell does a great number on it and ups emotional stakes with their use. 13 00:01:34.200 --> 00:01:37.739 And for me, redeems them as characters. 14 00:01:37.799 --> 00:01:38.760 Yeah. 15 00:01:38.819 --> 00:01:47.700 I think the Sabine had the problem of being directed by Keith Bogue, you know, very, very early on in the history of the production, when they didn't really know what they were doing yet. 16 00:01:47.760 --> 00:01:49.319 Yeah, I agree. 17 00:01:49.379 --> 00:01:54.540 And this is such an unassuming little episode, but it's so good for the series. 18 00:01:54.599 --> 00:01:58.439 It's kind of like it's the glue that binds the series together. 19 00:01:58.439 --> 00:02:04.200 And I think if it wasn't there, it would be a much less rich experience, that 1st series of Doctor Who. 20 00:02:04.260 --> 00:02:05.099 Well, I agree with you. 21 00:02:05.159 --> 00:02:06.420 There's so much in here, Peter. 22 00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:11.340 We've got the rift, we've got Cardiff, we've got Mickey dealing with Rose's treatment of him. 23 00:02:11.400 --> 00:02:19.680 We've got the Russell being of having this joyous team all together before they're all ripped apart at the end of a season and making Jack a proper companion in it. 24 00:02:19.740 --> 00:02:20.520 That's correct. 25 00:02:20.580 --> 00:02:22.979 We've got the heart of the TARDIS introduced. 26 00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:26.699 We've still got references to Bad Wolf actually explicitly. 27 00:02:26.759 --> 00:02:32.099 There is so much here that is set up for the end of this season and threading through the entire season. 28 00:02:32.159 --> 00:02:33.659 It's such a crucial episode. 29 00:02:33.719 --> 00:02:36.659 And to think that he wasn't originally going to write this, was he? 30 00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:37.620 That's right. 31 00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:43.800 This 11th episode, I believe that they were holding the slot open for Paul Abbott, who's one of Britain's premier screenwriters. 32 00:02:43.860 --> 00:02:49.020 He did things like shameless and clocking off and I think Russell might be friends with him or knows him very well. 33 00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:51.599 And in the end, he just didn't have time to do it. 34 00:02:51.659 --> 00:03:02.460 And so Russell himself stepped in and wrote an episode, which kind of tied together everything so far and gave us a little bit of a breathing space before we went into the big two-part conclusion. 35 00:03:02.520 --> 00:03:04.860 And you need the breathing space. 36 00:03:04.919 --> 00:03:06.060 It's great breathing space. 37 00:03:06.180 --> 00:03:11.219 I think that it's something that he does later with less success, I think. 38 00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:24.900 Things like Love and Monsters, which is obviously very controversial, and maybe even the end of time, where there's a sort of very, very kind of thin premise. 39 00:03:24.960 --> 00:03:30.840 There's not really much going on in a sort of Doctor Who sense and he's writing character drama instead. 40 00:03:30.900 --> 00:03:32.460 And I like that a lot. 41 00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:37.740 And I think he absolutely lampshades how stupid the science fiction premises here. 42 00:03:37.800 --> 00:03:41.400 So you've got, you know, Margaret, she turns up out of nowhere. 43 00:03:41.460 --> 00:03:49.139 She's become the mayor, no one ever takes photographs of her for some reason, even though she's the mayor, they do take, they plaster over the front page. 44 00:03:49.259 --> 00:03:50.879 That's it. 45 00:03:50.939 --> 00:04:03.240 Somehow she's got this plan where she's able to get people to agree to knock down Cardiff Castle and build a nuclear power plan in the middle of the city. of the city. 46 00:04:03.300 --> 00:04:05.520 Like that's, it's so cartoonish. 47 00:04:05.580 --> 00:04:11.460 And when she's foiled, she's foiled in this sort of fantastically Scooby-Doo kind of way. 48 00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:13.860 That happens so early on. 49 00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:24.720 Like she's completely foiled, that whole sort of plan, uh, goes to hell super early on in the episode well within the sort of 1st half of the episode, and then we get what the thing's really about. 50 00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:32.819 And there are times when I sometimes think that I can detect Russell kind of spinning his wheels a bit. 51 00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:40.560 But he does that here so well that I don't think it's a problem and it will become a problem, I think, in future episodes. 52 00:04:45.180 --> 00:04:48.180 I love all the comedy moments in this. 53 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:52.139 Like right from the get go with Margaret dashing out the window. 54 00:04:52.199 --> 00:04:56.639 That line of Chris where he says, she's dashing out the window, isn't she? 55 00:04:56.699 --> 00:04:57.600 And he goes, yes. 56 00:04:58.860 --> 00:05:03.959 And that whole sequence of her with her like teleport and then coming back. so funny. 57 00:05:04.019 --> 00:05:07.019 Like how the doctor pursues her out the window saying, Margaret. 58 00:05:07.620 --> 00:05:21.300 And, you know, the comedy Mickey stuff where everyone's, you know, Jack leaps over a tea trolly and everyone's being super heroic and Mickey sort of treads in a bucket, which he then trails after him with sort of toilet paper behind him or something. 59 00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:36.240 Like it's all really, really fun and super funny and in a way that Doctor Who hasn't been, that sort of slapstick comedy, like not treating the main plot, particularly seriously, and kind of throwing it away. 60 00:05:36.300 --> 00:05:39.060 And it's something that I wish Doctor Who did a little bit more. 61 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:47.279 You know, each episode has to have a threat and an adventure and a climax and a plot getting foiled and all of that kind of thing. 62 00:05:47.339 --> 00:05:52.199 And I think we could afford to have episodes that weren't like that. 63 00:05:52.680 --> 00:05:56.399 I think it works here because you know what the thread is. 64 00:05:56.459 --> 00:05:58.379 You've experienced this, Celine before, right? 65 00:05:58.439 --> 00:06:02.040 She's out for revenge based on what's happened in the past. 66 00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:04.860 So we don't have to have all that setup. 67 00:06:04.920 --> 00:06:09.720 No, and we can have just a stupid plot and throw it away because it's not the focus of the episode. 68 00:06:09.779 --> 00:06:10.439 It doesn't matter. 69 00:06:10.500 --> 00:06:14.339 I think the closest parallel is for me is power of three. 70 00:06:14.459 --> 00:06:17.100 I think that's really excellent. 71 00:06:17.160 --> 00:06:24.660 That might be my favourite chibnal episode, but I think it does a much worse job of the science fiction plot when we finally get to it. 72 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:26.160 I think that bit's kind of terrible. 73 00:06:26.279 --> 00:06:32.639 Whereas here the science fiction plot is deliberately cartoonish and outlandish. 74 00:06:32.699 --> 00:06:36.899 You know, all of the people who've been killed on the Blythe Drew project. 75 00:06:37.560 --> 00:06:40.079 It was a very icy pad. 76 00:06:40.680 --> 00:06:48.600 But also that they'd written danger explosives in Welsh and so the French inspection team didn't know what it meant. 77 00:06:48.660 --> 00:06:50.459 And that whole thing is so ridiculous. 78 00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:53.160 Like, not for a 2nd can you believe any of it? 79 00:06:53.220 --> 00:06:58.800 But it's also the fact that Margaret's not just going to set up this nuclear reactor and then, you know, send it into overload or something. 80 00:06:58.860 --> 00:07:01.139 She actually builds in a design floor. 81 00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:03.360 So it's designed to explode. 82 00:07:03.420 --> 00:07:05.459 And then only one person. 83 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:08.879 I've checked the figures. detects this. 84 00:07:17.939 --> 00:07:20.579 I'm gonna disagree with you about the Mickey comedy. 85 00:07:20.639 --> 00:07:32.339 I think him running into that trolly does a disservice again to the character, and that has happened before in Russell's writing back when he tries to hug the TARDIS back in the previous Slovene episode. 86 00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:35.040 And I do have to say that I actually think Russell's writing of his character. 87 00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:44.819 He's trying to redeem him in some aspects, but I also think at times, I think it really just... sort of making him the butt of a joke doesn't sit that well. 88 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:46.740 And I think at this point I don't want it anymore. 89 00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:50.459 And it does come back a bit, I think, in the finale as well. 90 00:07:50.579 --> 00:07:52.740 Like he's ever mourning about things. 91 00:07:52.800 --> 00:08:02.699 But here he does get to actually have a good, you left me moment with Rose and actually pull her up, which I like, but what he giveth in one hand, he taketh away in the other. 92 00:08:02.759 --> 00:08:12.120 I find it times and that really just, that's probably part of the episode that I don't particularly like, that he's moaning and complaining or is sent up as a comedy character. 93 00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:14.639 I think who would you give that to? 94 00:08:14.699 --> 00:08:24.779 I mean, if it had been Moffatt, the doctor would have been the less competent one, like he would have been the one who kind of falls over or does something silly rather than a companion. 95 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:26.699 I mean, it's true. 96 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:29.220 I mean, we want to see that, you know, the others are now a team. 97 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:31.439 They mention all these other adventures they've been on. 98 00:08:31.500 --> 00:08:32.820 They're very much a unit. 99 00:08:32.879 --> 00:08:35.399 So yes, obviously it's going to be that character. 100 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:38.100 But in fact, what's nice is him being included. 101 00:08:38.159 --> 00:08:44.879 That thing where they're having breakfast in that cafe where the doctor sees the picture of Margaret on the newspaper. 102 00:08:44.940 --> 00:08:50.159 Like Mickey's kind of included in the fun there, you know, and Jack's telling the story. 103 00:08:50.220 --> 00:08:51.600 Does Mickey give the punchline? 104 00:08:51.659 --> 00:08:53.220 He realises what the punchline is. 105 00:08:53.340 --> 00:08:54.600 That's my line. 106 00:08:54.659 --> 00:08:55.080 Yeah. 107 00:08:55.139 --> 00:08:56.639 Yeah, that's nice. 108 00:08:56.700 --> 00:08:57.360 Yeah. 109 00:08:57.419 --> 00:08:59.340 I think this episode is essential for Mickey. 110 00:08:59.399 --> 00:09:04.320 I think it's the episode where both Noel Clark and Russell work out what to do with the character. 111 00:09:04.379 --> 00:09:25.440 And it does start off with Mickey being a klutz, which is, you know, consistent with what we've seen beforehand, but then it makes the punch of his emotional wounding at Rose's hands all the more powerful because, um, you've set him up as a klutz, but he's actually a real person with real feelings and you see that in the sweep of the episode. 112 00:09:25.440 --> 00:09:29.340 And he's forced into having to go out with Trisha Delaney. 113 00:09:29.399 --> 00:09:31.799 I think that that's amazing that scene. 114 00:09:31.860 --> 00:09:33.659 So you've got 2 dinners going on. 115 00:09:33.720 --> 00:09:45.779 And I had heard somewhere that the working title of this or one of the possible titles was dinner with monsters, and it's obviously the doctor has dinner with Margaret and she's a monster. 116 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:55.860 Margaret thinks the doctor's a monster, but the other monster is Rose in this, and she gets some level of realisation as well. 117 00:09:55.980 --> 00:10:00.000 The final moment of the story where we have the shot of the egg. 118 00:10:00.059 --> 00:10:00.960 Heartbreaking. 119 00:10:01.080 --> 00:10:10.740 Yeah, she says it would be nice to have a chance to start over again. like... abuse so well And she is horrible. 120 00:10:10.799 --> 00:10:15.419 Like she's abandoned him and she's horrible about Trish. 121 00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:17.340 Like that awful. 122 00:10:17.399 --> 00:10:18.419 She's a bit big. 123 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:20.639 You know, she lost weight. 124 00:10:20.700 --> 00:10:27.899 Like, she's just a dumb girl from a shop who won't run away and explore the universe and leave him behind. 125 00:10:27.960 --> 00:10:35.159 And like Rose just snaps her fingers and drags him all the way to Cardiff for no reason, on pretence. 126 00:10:35.220 --> 00:10:43.559 I actually like to the way that scene looks like it's going, which is that they're going to have dinner and then a hotel room and stuff. 127 00:10:43.620 --> 00:10:54.179 I thought that was really nice and something that we'd never had before in Doctor Who, you know, like the companion kind of is a grown up having relationships and like in a proper grown up way. 128 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:56.820 And it looks like it's going so well. 129 00:10:57.179 --> 00:11:00.899 And then it just takes a real emotional turn. 130 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:07.440 Yeah, well, that would be consistent with Rose's character because one of her defining characteristics is that she's selfish. 131 00:11:07.500 --> 00:11:08.100 Yeah. 132 00:11:08.100 --> 00:11:13.860 And, you know, Billy Piper's commented on this in interviews before, where she says Rogue is just a selfish cow. 133 00:11:13.919 --> 00:11:24.720 And it's true because she thinks nothing of dragging Mickey to Cardiff on a pretence to bring her passport and then say, oh, let's go out to dinner and let's get a hotel because that's what she feels like at that very moment. 134 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:30.360 Whereas the previous episode she was quite happy to flirt with Jack and see where that went and poor Mickey's just disposable. 135 00:11:30.419 --> 00:11:32.639 Yeah, a convenience, isn't he? 136 00:11:32.700 --> 00:11:37.320 I mean, it does seem that that's Swede, the way that's going, but it isn't. 137 00:11:37.379 --> 00:11:45.120 Like it's just her using Mickey to get her end away in between adventures because he's convenient and he'll come when he's called. 138 00:11:45.179 --> 00:11:55.320 And even at the end, like where he sort of looks at the scenes that are unfolding and where she is and sort of thing goes off without really, there's no real goodbye. 139 00:11:55.379 --> 00:11:58.320 So she goes out to sort of say goodbye. 140 00:11:58.379 --> 00:12:00.600 She has forgotten about him in the excitement. 141 00:12:00.659 --> 00:12:02.519 You know, she rushes back to the Tartars. 142 00:12:02.580 --> 00:12:08.279 She only realises that she's left Mickey behind and doesn't know what happened to him after everything's been resolved. 143 00:12:08.340 --> 00:12:09.360 And he could have been hurt. 144 00:12:09.419 --> 00:12:10.200 Yeah, yeah. 145 00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:19.559 And then she runs off and Mickey sees her, but he just leaves without, you know, saying goodbye. 146 00:12:19.559 --> 00:12:23.700 And then Rose comes back into the Tardisan lies about having seen him. 147 00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:26.519 You know, he's fine, you know. powerful stuff. 148 00:12:26.580 --> 00:12:27.480 Yeah, yeah. 149 00:12:27.539 --> 00:12:36.779 It's why I think this episode's so good for Mickey because at the end there, he retains a small shred of dignity by not going up to her and saying, yeah, I'm fine and sort of playing her game. 150 00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:38.399 He decides to take control. 151 00:12:38.460 --> 00:12:39.600 He makes sure that she's okay. 152 00:12:39.659 --> 00:12:48.120 He makes sure that she knows, you know, she's talking to a policeman, that he's not among the injured or whatever, and he just takes his dignity and turns around, walks away. 153 00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:51.000 It's a turning point for the character. 154 00:12:51.059 --> 00:12:59.700 It is, which is why I like the fact that he's, you know, typical aliens of London Mickey early in the episode because you get that move for his character. 155 00:12:59.759 --> 00:13:02.580 Yeah And it's been a little while since we've seen him, I guess. 156 00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:05.399 Apart from Little Mickey and Father's Day, yeah. 157 00:13:05.460 --> 00:13:08.460 Who, okay, is running around after Rose. 158 00:13:10.440 --> 00:13:17.399 And so, of course, the other big dinner that's going on is the dinner between the doctor and Margaret. 159 00:13:17.460 --> 00:13:22.620 And the show does take a turn into this kind of moral dilemma. 160 00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:29.399 Is it right for us to take Margaret back to Rexicorricofalapatorius and have her executed? 161 00:13:29.580 --> 00:13:33.659 And it looks like the doctor is fine with it. 162 00:13:34.019 --> 00:13:35.639 It does. 163 00:13:36.059 --> 00:13:43.080 There's a moment where sort of Margaret does the Sylvester McCoy look me in the eye and tell me it's okay and none of them can do it. 164 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:49.500 And the doctor, I don't think, even attempts to look at her or initially pretends to be sort of engaged in something. 165 00:13:49.559 --> 00:13:55.559 And all of that is so tremendously well directed because you've got Margaret out of the stupid suit. 166 00:13:55.620 --> 00:14:03.480 I think we have a bit of CG Celine when she's getting out of the suit to attack Kathy earlier in the episode. 167 00:14:03.539 --> 00:14:05.580 Later on, she pulls off a Margaret hand. 168 00:14:06.840 --> 00:14:11.039 But basically you've just got Annette's acting performance. 169 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:20.700 And what Russell did, of course, in the design of the Sabine is have them look like fat people. you know, like they've got big round, chubby baby faces. 170 00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:31.740 And so Margaret still looks like a Slovene, you know, and she's quite happy to show her sort of somewhat terrifying teeth and is quite happy to be shot in close up. 171 00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:34.620 You know, it's not a very forgiving way of directing her. 172 00:14:34.679 --> 00:14:37.440 She's got massive sort of close-ups of her face. 173 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:39.720 And they light her green. 174 00:14:39.779 --> 00:14:48.419 Like they use the TARDIS atmospheric lighting to give her a green face in a lot of shots just to remind us that she's a saline. 175 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:50.460 And I think it's terribly well done. 176 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:52.980 And she lectures them. 177 00:14:53.039 --> 00:14:55.860 It's another one where the monster has the high ground, morally. 178 00:14:56.039 --> 00:14:59.220 It's a great performance from her. 179 00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:04.440 And and the things that he gets here to say like, I bet you are always the 1st to leave. 180 00:15:04.500 --> 00:15:05.940 At last you have consequences. 181 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:10.860 This is something that never has been really addressed in classic who, for us as classic who fans. 182 00:15:10.919 --> 00:15:14.700 And also to reinforce to the new audience as well. 183 00:15:14.759 --> 00:15:18.720 You know, we're not just going to choof off and that's the end of it. 184 00:15:18.779 --> 00:15:21.659 You've actually got to face up to what you're about today. 185 00:15:21.720 --> 00:15:29.580 I think that sort of critique of the premise of Doctor Who, whether Doctor just kind of does something and then disappears and doesn't deal with the consequences. 186 00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:33.299 Um, It's something that will come up again. 187 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:34.259 Have we ever had it before? 188 00:15:34.440 --> 00:15:38.700 It's never really talked about in the original run of the show. 189 00:15:38.759 --> 00:15:41.100 The doctor just ducks out at the end. 190 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:43.259 He doesn't want to clean up any of the mess that he's created. 191 00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:43.980 Yeah. 192 00:15:43.980 --> 00:15:50.399 And he says I don't like goodbyes and things and he often just sort of leaves people to rebuild what he's kind of blown up. 193 00:15:50.460 --> 00:15:51.059 Yeah. 194 00:15:51.059 --> 00:15:52.799 Yes. robots of death. 195 00:15:52.860 --> 00:15:53.580 Yeah, yeah. 196 00:15:53.700 --> 00:15:56.399 You don't even get to see a goodbye. 197 00:15:56.460 --> 00:15:57.360 You know? 198 00:15:57.419 --> 00:15:57.840 Yeah. 199 00:15:57.899 --> 00:16:03.539 I mean, obviously here, you do have consequences earlier in the season when Rose has been away for a year. 200 00:16:03.659 --> 00:16:13.559 So you get to see that, but here they're really addressing it, and I just think it's very powerful, especially, you know, with the comedy goal that is that dinner with Margaret. 201 00:16:13.620 --> 00:16:18.779 You know, with the best doctor villain confrontations in the show's history, right up there with the doctor in Soutec. 202 00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:20.700 No, I seriously, I'm in it. 203 00:16:20.759 --> 00:16:21.480 Yeah, yeah. 204 00:16:21.539 --> 00:16:23.340 It is great, isn't it? 205 00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:24.120 It's so good. 206 00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:31.980 And it's something which is lacking, I think, in the new series, is that you don't often get Dr. Villain one-on-one. 207 00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:35.039 Like Davros in Genesis of the Daleks. 208 00:16:35.100 --> 00:16:42.659 That's right, because so often in New Doctor Who, the villain in Inverted Commas is, you know, misfiring tech or something like that. 209 00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:45.240 It's not an actual person being a villain. 210 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:46.440 Yeah. 211 00:16:46.500 --> 00:16:57.840 Well, I think that that scene is so good because it goes from just the sort of hilarious comedy of the poison gas and the dart and him sort of breath freshening her and stuff. 212 00:16:57.899 --> 00:17:04.619 And even the just cheesy, you know, she puts a pill in his drink and he swaps it around. 213 00:17:04.740 --> 00:17:07.980 I mean, it couldn't possibly be cheesier and that stuff's super funny. 214 00:17:08.039 --> 00:17:16.440 And then you get heard discussing the details of what the execution entails and asking him if he's going to be there for him. 215 00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:21.720 And he says he will, like he'll be there to support her while it happens. 216 00:17:21.779 --> 00:17:23.819 Well, like that absolves his conscience. 217 00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:25.140 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 218 00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:27.599 And the thing about letting one go too. 219 00:17:27.660 --> 00:17:34.380 You know, the way that the doctor critiques her morally because she's congratulating herself for having spared Kathy. 220 00:17:34.500 --> 00:17:36.240 And what I think is a great scene. 221 00:17:36.299 --> 00:17:45.660 I love Kathy as a character and it is a very, very rustly thing to, you know, she's got a boyfriend, they're pregnant, but it was a mistake, you know. 222 00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:50.759 She can't lose her job because her family will get mad at her. 223 00:17:50.819 --> 00:17:51.480 All of that. 224 00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:52.980 She's got a very Russell name as well. 225 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:53.819 Kathy Salt. 226 00:17:54.180 --> 00:17:58.259 It is a very rustly thing, a very warm and kind of human thing. 227 00:17:58.319 --> 00:17:59.279 I like that a lot. 228 00:17:59.339 --> 00:18:04.380 But Margaret's congratulating herself because she didn't slaughter, you know, Kathy. 229 00:18:04.380 --> 00:18:07.140 And she turns that around on the doctor. 230 00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:08.759 Why don't you let one go? 231 00:18:08.819 --> 00:18:13.019 You had all of my family killed a few episodes ago. 232 00:18:13.079 --> 00:18:15.000 Like, how many Sladine were there? 233 00:18:15.059 --> 00:18:16.380 There were like a dozen or something. 234 00:18:16.440 --> 00:18:20.039 There were a lot of people and the doctor just was happy to let them all die. 235 00:18:20.099 --> 00:18:26.460 And, you know, it's interesting that he decided to bring back Margaret because in, obviously in Badlands, brilliant. 236 00:18:26.579 --> 00:18:30.359 In aliens of London, Margaret's an underwritten role, there's not a lot of meat there. 237 00:18:30.420 --> 00:18:45.180 And so bring her back, was a decision to make this character something based on the performance that she did earlier on, where she is great in those earlier episodes as the 3rd pig in that sort of wheel. 238 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:52.920 She's the one actually who is out of costume for most of the 2nd episode for most of World War III. 239 00:18:52.980 --> 00:18:55.380 She's the human face of the Sadine. 240 00:18:55.440 --> 00:19:00.599 So we do know her and she gets some great comedy and some good scenes. 241 00:19:00.660 --> 00:19:02.759 And she gets to act against Chris. 242 00:19:02.819 --> 00:19:06.779 Like, you know, when it keeps opening up the door and that sort of thing, like she's going one on one. 243 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:09.900 So if there's a character he's going to bring back, she's the most obvious. 244 00:19:09.960 --> 00:19:10.920 There's that bit of history there. 245 00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:14.099 And she's, I mean, is she just delicious, the entire performance? 246 00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:21.720 And of course, she went on to be an EastEnders as Aunt Babe, and was a very popular character delivering an equally delicious performance. 247 00:19:21.779 --> 00:19:24.539 I love her in Wizards versus Aliens. 248 00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:26.220 I think she's just tremendous. 249 00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:27.539 She is so great. 250 00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:32.160 I'd hope that she was going to be Dolores Umbrage in the Harry Potter films. 251 00:19:32.220 --> 00:19:34.259 I wonder if she wasn't in them. 252 00:19:34.380 --> 00:19:39.599 Yeah, she's a relative of Willy Wonka's or something into Tim Burton film. 253 00:19:39.779 --> 00:19:45.299 It's interesting talking about the confrontation between the doctor and Margaret, you know, let one go. 254 00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:51.720 I'm not sure whether I like the fact that at the end of the episode, it's shown that this was all a ploy of Margaret's. 255 00:19:51.779 --> 00:19:59.880 She didn't really mean any of it. because she was just setting it up to get on her pan-dimensional surfboard and head off, and that was her plan all along. 256 00:19:59.940 --> 00:20:04.259 It felt like it should have had the stakes that she was being honest with him and trying to convince him. 257 00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:05.400 I don't think she was. 258 00:20:05.460 --> 00:20:06.539 I agree with you. 259 00:20:06.599 --> 00:20:09.180 It's the one thing where I kind of went, oh, that seems to come out of the blue. 260 00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:14.519 Like all these conveniences to get to this point. sort of, I just kind of doesn't ring true to me. 261 00:20:14.579 --> 00:20:19.319 Yeah, we needed a sort of climax for that stupid plot, maybe. 262 00:20:19.380 --> 00:20:28.079 And so that's the big climax at the end of the episode where we can have her defeated and we can pump the moral question as well. 263 00:20:28.140 --> 00:20:33.180 They get to escape from having to make the moral decision, just like Tom does in Genesis of the Dalek. 264 00:20:33.240 --> 00:20:35.220 We set up a big moral decision and then punt on it. 265 00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:38.640 But maybe we didn't need that confrontation scene. 266 00:20:38.700 --> 00:20:49.140 You know, maybe it was Russell just hewing a little bit too closely to the kind of Doctor Who formula and we would have been better off if that stuff hadn't been a lie. 267 00:20:49.200 --> 00:21:05.279 I think it's a little bit like Dalek, where if we think about that stuff being a ploy to get Rose to touch the Dalek, It's less effective because it's got a sort of stupid science fiction explanation. 268 00:21:05.339 --> 00:21:11.640 It's less effective than the Dalek being frightened and tortured and abused and kind of terrified. 269 00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:14.640 Yeah, it makes a little bit more sci-fi than it should have been. 270 00:21:14.700 --> 00:21:18.900 And I think it just needed in Boomtown, a clearer turn in the storytelling. 271 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:23.160 You maybe needed Margaret to say, I've tried to convince you enough. 272 00:21:23.220 --> 00:21:25.500 I don't believe you, so I'm just going to do this. 273 00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:26.759 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 274 00:21:26.819 --> 00:21:27.480 That would have been better. 275 00:21:27.539 --> 00:21:41.099 You could have still had that big climax, the big sort of swirly special effect climax at the end and Margaret being threatening and stuff, but if she'd lost the moral argument. and decided, well, I'm not going to be executed, so I'm going to do this. 276 00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:42.240 Yeah. 277 00:21:42.299 --> 00:21:46.440 Yeah, and that seems more organic. 278 00:21:46.500 --> 00:21:46.859 Yeah. 279 00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:57.119 But, you know, obviously in that sequence, the heart of the TARDIS is opened and she gets to look into that. which is very important for the upcoming finale. 280 00:21:57.180 --> 00:22:00.480 Without looking like it's setting things up for the upcoming finale. 281 00:22:00.539 --> 00:22:04.380 I mean, what happens is she gets her heart's desire. 282 00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:15.000 She looks into the heart of the Tartars and it gives her what she wants. and she says, thank you, and what she does want is a 2nd chance, a chance to do things differently. 283 00:22:15.059 --> 00:22:19.740 So maybe that's Russell's way of saying, no, actually, it wasn't a ploy. 284 00:22:19.799 --> 00:22:30.180 Like the doctor's discussion with her has changed her in some way and the thing that she wants more than anything else is to be brought up. 285 00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:35.579 You know, she blames her evilness on her upbringing. 286 00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:38.220 She would have been fed to the venom gloves if she hadn't. 287 00:22:38.279 --> 00:22:39.839 That's right. 288 00:22:39.900 --> 00:22:43.920 So she talks about she talks about her her upbringing and blames it on that. 289 00:22:43.980 --> 00:22:50.940 And so she gets the chance to have a new upbringing where they get, you know, it's a little bit like bringing Pangol up properly this time. 290 00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:56.579 Possibly if she hadn't have had those conversations with the doctor. and examined her own actions. 291 00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:04.500 Maybe her greatest desire when she looked into the heart of the Tartars would have been that, you know, everyone around her was destroyed and she, she had it off on away. 292 00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:12.299 What do we think about the heart of the Tartars? 293 00:23:12.359 --> 00:23:25.859 One of the big criticisms of Russell's writing by people who have no taste is that he relies a lot on the Deus X Markina as a trope. 294 00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:28.440 He does, and he does it a number of times. 295 00:23:28.500 --> 00:23:29.880 This is the 1st time he does it. 296 00:23:29.940 --> 00:23:31.500 So it doesn't worry me. 297 00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:36.420 It doesn't worry you that in 2 weeks time he's going to use exactly the same day as Xbox. 298 00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:37.440 Oh, I don't know. 299 00:23:37.500 --> 00:23:43.200 Like, I mean, it's set up that the TARDIS is organic, that it's connected to the time vortex or whatever. 300 00:23:43.259 --> 00:23:48.720 I think there's enough for me anyway, and you know what I'm like when it comes to these sort of things. 301 00:23:48.779 --> 00:23:55.799 There's enough building their backstory and explanations that I'm not going to go and go, ah, this is terrible. 302 00:23:55.859 --> 00:24:01.680 I think, you know, had it just turned up in the party of the ways that would have been bad, I think. 303 00:24:01.740 --> 00:24:03.180 You know, we needed boom down. 304 00:24:03.299 --> 00:24:04.259 You seated the ground for it. 305 00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:15.420 And I think in Boomtown, it just does the job of making visible, the change in Margaret, the sort of moral change that Margaret's experienced. 306 00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:21.539 We have this sort of magic fairy tale thing in the TARDIS that gives you your heart's desire. 307 00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:26.880 We get to see what our heart's desire is and we wouldn't have seen that quite so easily. 308 00:24:26.940 --> 00:24:28.440 And I think that's Russell all over. 309 00:24:28.500 --> 00:24:34.619 I mean, I don't think it's doing him a disservice to say that he's more concerned with character than plotting. 310 00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:41.039 And I think the emotional payoff for the characters is much more important to him than the physical payoff of ending the story. 311 00:24:41.099 --> 00:24:41.640 Yeah. 312 00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:46.200 And so it's perfectly serviceable, even though it is a DeSX Macina. 313 00:24:46.259 --> 00:24:51.960 But because you get the emotional payoff for Margaret and for Rose as well, that makes it a satisfying ending. 314 00:24:52.019 --> 00:24:59.640 I think you can overlook the sort of weakness in a plot device because that emotional stuff in there. 315 00:24:59.640 --> 00:25:07.859 To me, that's one, the biggest strength of his writing is that emotional stuff and that really sells anything, any weaker concept. 316 00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:14.880 The complaint is always, if we'd had some lines of dialogue in there, I would have bought this better. 317 00:25:14.940 --> 00:25:20.460 You know, like if we just had it addressed in dialogue, I would have been happy with it. 318 00:25:20.759 --> 00:25:25.019 And I kind of think, well, you know, that's a recipe for just technobabble, isn't it? 319 00:25:25.079 --> 00:25:31.140 Like, I'd be happy for this plot development to happen, provided it had some kind of technobabble name to it. 320 00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:40.680 And I'm always sort of glad, let's not have the technovabble, let's just provided it was explained on screen rather than working out what's obvious in getting on with the character stuff. 321 00:25:40.740 --> 00:25:45.960 Yeah, and I think, you know, like his biggest day at sex marketer has to be the end of series 3, doesn't it? 322 00:25:46.019 --> 00:25:47.039 And that's seated. 323 00:25:47.099 --> 00:25:51.960 Like there is actually an attempt earlier in the episode to set it up. 324 00:25:52.019 --> 00:25:57.960 So I don't think he's anywhere near as sloppy as people claim he is. 325 00:25:58.019 --> 00:26:04.680 I think there are weaknesses in his writing sometimes that are evident, but sloppy plotting is absolutely not one of them. 326 00:26:04.799 --> 00:26:08.759 And people talk about absolute, as they say, Russell's all about character and his plot's terrible. 327 00:26:08.819 --> 00:26:10.380 That's not right at all. 328 00:26:10.440 --> 00:26:11.700 He is all about character. 329 00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:15.000 It's just, I think his character work is stronger than his plotting work. 330 00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:18.960 So we've been talking about lots of things being seeded in this episode. 331 00:26:19.019 --> 00:26:22.619 We haven't talked very much about Captain Jack. 332 00:26:22.680 --> 00:26:28.440 And he's probably putting the background quite a bit being in the TARDIS, but he's dealing with the rift. 333 00:26:28.500 --> 00:26:31.559 He is wearing a blue shirt which shows off his arms. 334 00:26:32.039 --> 00:26:34.259 Sorry, I just had to get that in. 335 00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:39.240 And we are in Cardiff, which is all stuff setting up for Torchwood. 336 00:26:39.299 --> 00:26:40.799 I just want to throw in there as well. 337 00:26:40.859 --> 00:26:43.799 They actually talk about the clerking device being a chameleon circuit. 338 00:26:43.859 --> 00:26:46.079 I think this is the 1st time they actually say chameleon circuit. 339 00:26:46.200 --> 00:26:48.539 Previously it was talked about being a cloaking device. 340 00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:53.880 So we are beginning to throw in a couple of things for fans. 341 00:26:53.940 --> 00:27:01.380 Well, in fact, there's a big explanation of why the Tartars looks like a police box here, which is just there, I think, for fans. 342 00:27:01.500 --> 00:27:06.000 And it has a sort of slight eating up time kind of feel to it as well. 343 00:27:06.059 --> 00:27:08.220 But that's the beauty of this episode. 344 00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:10.380 It has the time to address things like that. 345 00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:21.839 And I think like Russell saying that it was very important to actually follow Rose into the Tartars, the 1st time she went in, not like the TV movie, where you see the inside of the Tartars before you see the outside and they get married together properly. 346 00:27:21.900 --> 00:27:29.279 You needed that explanation for new fans and new viewers who'd come to the series who may have legitimately been wondering, why does it look like a police box? 347 00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:31.259 And so he allows time to address that. 348 00:27:31.319 --> 00:27:35.700 In fact, the term cloaking devices from the TV movie. 349 00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:39.720 It gets called a cloaking device in the TV movie and so Russell addresses it. 350 00:27:39.779 --> 00:27:45.119 And he will later make fun of the TV movie as well in a couple of weeks time. 351 00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:47.279 Good on you, Russell. 352 00:27:47.339 --> 00:27:51.299 I actually really like the introduction where Mickey turns up. 353 00:27:51.359 --> 00:27:58.799 So he's the outsider and he sees this team of people who have got really super weird since he lasts. 354 00:27:58.859 --> 00:28:00.660 Yeah, yeah, really terrible. 355 00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:02.519 That will continue, won't it? 356 00:28:02.579 --> 00:28:08.279 I mean, more so when David Tennant takes over the role of the doctor because he is, you know, insufferable. 357 00:28:08.339 --> 00:28:09.420 Sorry. 358 00:28:09.420 --> 00:28:10.259 Not personally. 359 00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:15.059 I think he's very charming, but his doctor and Rose together are kind of bad for one another. 360 00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:19.259 It's probably a good thing that we never got run of episodes with the 10th doctor, Rose and Captain Jack. 361 00:28:19.319 --> 00:28:32.579 Yeah, but, you know, there's that sort of cute flirty thing too, that goes on, which I just think is really funny, where Mickey has misgivings about Rose travelling with Captain Jack because Captain Jack is handsome. think you'll find he's cheesy. 362 00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:33.480 Is he cheesy? 363 00:28:33.539 --> 00:28:35.220 Did he say Captain Cheesecake in this one? 364 00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:39.480 No, no, he says he's cheesy and he asks him what he's captain of. 365 00:28:39.539 --> 00:28:41.339 Is it the innuendo squad? 366 00:28:41.940 --> 00:28:45.599 Which, again, all of that banter is really fun. 367 00:28:45.660 --> 00:28:51.240 And the doctor's kind of slightly hurt, but Mickey isn't sort of sexually threatened by Rose travelling with a doctor. 368 00:28:51.299 --> 00:29:04.380 You know, he comes down that sort of ladder and says, so, you know, you're saying I'm not handsome and the crack about his ears, which is, like, I think that was a Moffat joke from the empty child. 369 00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:07.799 All of that stuff is so fun and so light and so wonderful. 370 00:29:07.859 --> 00:29:17.460 There's kind of a weird sexual tension between all of these characters because Rose was flirting very heavily with Captain Jack in the previous episodes. there's none of that now. 371 00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:23.039 The doctor and Jack have a little kind of banter flirtation, you know, buy me a drink. all of that. 372 00:29:23.099 --> 00:29:28.079 And even Jack and Mickey kind of, I don't know, there's a weird thing going on there. 373 00:29:28.140 --> 00:29:38.640 But the bit which I like is when Rose decides to go to dinner with Mickey and they walk off and the doctor's watching them on the scanner and looks really hurt for a moment and then brush it aside. 374 00:29:38.700 --> 00:29:42.240 Well, I think Jack actually says what's on Italian, he says nothing. 375 00:29:48.299 --> 00:29:58.980 This is the 1st of 3 episodes that is directed by Joe Hearn, who we haven't seen back on the series, and I think we may have already talked about this during our coverage of series one. 376 00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:15.539 Well, it's no secret, but I think there were certain frictions on set, uh, and that Christopher Eckleston and Joe Aherne, who directed Dalek and Father's Day, um, had gone on particularly well, and so it was a good idea to bring him back to do the last episodes and, you know, keep the ship happy and all of that. 377 00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:21.119 There were 2 other directors who were booked to do episode 11 and then 12 and 13. 378 00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:25.500 In fact, one of them then came back and directed on the series later on. 379 00:30:25.559 --> 00:30:30.779 But I think you'd be hard pressed to get anyone who'd do a better job of Boomtown than Joe Oherne. 380 00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:32.460 I think Joe Hearne's great. 381 00:30:32.519 --> 00:30:36.839 I mean, the 5 episodes that he does this season are all outstanding. 382 00:30:36.900 --> 00:30:39.720 And I mean, he doesn't come back, does he? 383 00:30:39.779 --> 00:30:47.880 Because he'd ended up spending so much time in Cardiff that, you know, it was kind of in peril, I guess, relationship, I think. 384 00:30:47.940 --> 00:30:53.940 He did the Toby Haynes thing where he came back very quickly, entered a chunk of episodes and kind of burned out and that was his lot. 385 00:30:54.119 --> 00:30:59.700 It is a shame because none of that seems to make it to screen, does it? 386 00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:04.920 I think you were saying earlier, Todd, that everyone seems to be getting on so well in front of the camera. 387 00:31:04.980 --> 00:31:11.759 I mean, it's a testament to the direction and to their acting that you would never realise that there's any tension behind the scenes. 388 00:31:11.819 --> 00:31:16.259 And the chemistry on screen is fantastic between them all. 389 00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:18.359 It's funny, isn't it? 390 00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:25.859 But we never got the chance to see series one without knowing, right, from episode 2 that this was going to be Chris's only season. 391 00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:26.579 Yeah. 392 00:31:26.579 --> 00:31:29.339 And all, all credit to Chris. 393 00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:35.519 I mean, he supported that series right through to the end, even after he'd essentially finished filming and left the production. 394 00:31:35.579 --> 00:31:44.099 He was there doing all the pre-publicity for the season and, you know, with a smile on his face and only hinting at the fact that he might not be back, but never saying it. 395 00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:45.779 You know, he did the series proud. 396 00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:57.180 Yeah, I think there's an interview with him on the series one box set where he's asked are you in it for the long haul and he kind of says, I think I've already done the long haul. 397 00:31:57.180 --> 00:32:01.559 And, you know, that's clearly before the show goes out and any announcement is made. 398 00:32:01.619 --> 00:32:08.279 And I think the announcement of his departure was leaked or something or he was kind of angry about it. 399 00:32:08.339 --> 00:32:09.660 There was some problem. 400 00:32:09.720 --> 00:32:15.720 It was the spin, I think, of the BBC press office where they said he didn't want to be typecast and he was like, actually, that's totally untrue. 401 00:32:15.779 --> 00:32:16.740 Right, yeah. 402 00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:29.759 Yeah, it is a bit of a shame because I think one of the strengths of this series is the family that it creates that a series where there's a new guest cast every week. 403 00:32:29.819 --> 00:32:49.980 There's a new location every week, a series that can go anywhere in time and space, has actually managed to create a coherent story over these episodes and a really strong, fun, regular cast bigger than just the sort of 2 leads. 404 00:32:50.039 --> 00:32:54.000 And I think Boomtown is absolutely crucial in doing that. 405 00:32:54.059 --> 00:32:56.880 It's like, for me, like the long game. 406 00:32:56.940 --> 00:33:00.359 The long game is overlooked because of the emotional stakes around it. 407 00:33:00.420 --> 00:33:07.259 Here you've got this single episode between 2 big two-parted stories. and all that's going on in those. 408 00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:16.559 So I think, again, it's overlooked, but it is just such an important episode in the creation of this new Doctor Who. 409 00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:21.240 And the writing that's going to continue on for another 10 seasons. 410 00:33:21.299 --> 00:33:23.099 It's a little bit of a mission statement. 411 00:33:23.160 --> 00:33:24.660 It puts all of the meat on the bone. 412 00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:27.000 It's like, yes, this is a success from the new series. 413 00:33:27.059 --> 00:33:28.559 This is the direction that we're heading in. 414 00:33:28.619 --> 00:33:33.660 I also like the fact that it's not only shot in Cardiff, but it's set in Cardiff. 415 00:33:33.720 --> 00:33:38.039 So it's sort of bringing the production close to home with Doctor Who as well. 416 00:33:38.099 --> 00:33:39.420 Yeah. 417 00:33:39.420 --> 00:33:43.619 I mean, it was part of the thing that they had to do, didn't they? 418 00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:54.059 I mean, if it was BBC Wales, they really wanted to kind of foreground Welsh locations and Welsh actors and stuff, there's a lot more Welsh voices than you might have otherwise heard. 419 00:33:54.119 --> 00:33:56.940 We've got 2 stories set in Wales. 420 00:33:57.000 --> 00:33:59.339 Yeah, I'm not sure if it was policy. 421 00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:07.319 It may have been, but I think Russell, you know, wanted to give back and say thank you and show off how beautiful Cardiff looked after its redevelopment, sort of down around the bay. 422 00:34:07.380 --> 00:34:11.519 And I think he ends up outsourcing that job to Torchwood. 423 00:34:11.579 --> 00:34:16.139 Obviously, once Torchwood gets going, and we don't have to go back to Wales quite so often. 424 00:34:16.199 --> 00:34:19.739 Can I just talk about some torchwood related news from this as well? 425 00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:25.679 Margaret's secretary, Idris Hopper, played by Ahled Pedrick, I think, is so cute. 426 00:34:25.860 --> 00:34:27.599 He's does. 427 00:34:27.659 --> 00:34:34.739 I mean, he's gorgeous in that one scene that he's got where he says some, Oh yes, the man's just busy with some paperwork. 428 00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:39.300 And of course, he was meant to transfer across to Torchwood. 429 00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:42.599 He was meant to be in the Eanto Jones role. 430 00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:45.239 And I don't know why. 431 00:34:45.300 --> 00:34:49.199 It never happened and so they created Yantu, but you can just see how that dynamic would have worked. 432 00:34:49.260 --> 00:34:50.460 Interesting. 433 00:34:50.519 --> 00:34:52.199 He's really good, isn't he? 434 00:34:52.260 --> 00:34:53.340 That is such a fun scene. 435 00:34:53.400 --> 00:34:54.539 I think we talked about that. 436 00:34:54.599 --> 00:34:55.739 I love that scene alone. 437 00:34:55.800 --> 00:34:59.460 Hello, when he pursues the doctor out onto the balcony, saying, leave the mayor alone. 438 00:35:02.519 --> 00:35:06.780 And then the doctor dispatches him by sort of grappling with him for a bit and he runs back inside. 439 00:35:18.900 --> 00:35:24.420 So here, for the first time, we directly reference Bad Wolf. 440 00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:32.039 It appears in Welsh, and then it's translated, and then the doctor actually mentions that he's heard this before. 441 00:35:32.099 --> 00:35:42.900 And as an audience, if we've been picking up on things, we would have seen or heard little things, and you may or may not be saying there's something in this, and then he dismisses it. 442 00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:45.480 Yeah, it's a funny fake out, isn't it? 443 00:35:45.539 --> 00:35:52.559 So we don't know whether the characters have been noticing the bad wolf thing. 444 00:35:52.619 --> 00:35:54.119 We know that they've heard it. 445 00:35:54.119 --> 00:35:58.199 And of course, it's painted on the TARDIS in episodes 4 and five. 446 00:35:58.260 --> 00:36:04.199 So we know that they've seen it, but we've been noticing it, and it was something that we were talking about. 447 00:36:04.260 --> 00:36:09.539 Do you remember when this season was 1st on, we were aware of it and we were wondering what it meant? 448 00:36:09.719 --> 00:36:16.260 And so this is the 1st time that the actual characters in the show, make it clear that there's some running bad wolf thing going on. 449 00:36:16.500 --> 00:36:19.440 It's hard to remember what we thought it was going to be. 450 00:36:19.500 --> 00:36:21.300 Like, I mean, I've really forgotten. 451 00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:33.360 I know that we had huge discussions about what this was, and then going back and watching episodes to see where it was, and you pick up on so many different things, like, you know, Bad Wolf One descending, all the Bad Wolf TV, like all these little things in the background. 452 00:36:33.420 --> 00:36:36.840 There was a bad wolf scenario that the mocks of Balhoon talks about. 453 00:36:36.900 --> 00:36:38.940 You've got Gwyneth the Big Bad Wolf. 454 00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:41.280 You know, it's just coming up too often. 455 00:36:41.340 --> 00:36:42.960 And when the doctor dismisses it. 456 00:36:43.019 --> 00:36:44.820 It's like, I don't think we ever bought that. 457 00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:52.320 It's sort of like he's trying to cover it up as if to say, well, it's Chris Comedy doctor performance where he's trying to change the subject, I think. 458 00:36:52.440 --> 00:37:00.960 He doesn't quite dismiss it because it looks like the doctors deliberately trying to not address it. 459 00:37:01.019 --> 00:37:07.559 You remember they put out a list of episode titles and they left... 460 00:37:07.619 --> 00:37:08.519 They left off episode 12. 461 00:37:08.760 --> 00:37:12.179 Yeah, we didn't know what the title for episode 12 was going to be. 462 00:37:12.239 --> 00:37:18.480 And so clearly they've got to lampshade Bad Wolf before we go into an episode that's called Bad Wolf. 463 00:37:18.599 --> 00:37:26.699 Like it needs to be there this episode, but they want to leave the big flashback to all of the previous uses of Bad Wolf to that episode. 464 00:37:26.760 --> 00:37:31.500 So he can't address it now, but it needs to be there in the episode, I think. 465 00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:35.400 And you wonder if it was an original episode 11 by Paul Abbott. 466 00:37:35.460 --> 00:37:41.039 Would this have played a similar role or is Russell taking the opportunity to say, right, let's really foreground Bad Wolf now? 467 00:37:41.099 --> 00:37:42.659 is what he does with the whole episode. 468 00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:49.800 He's sort of, he's picking and choosing the things that he wants to kind of bring to the foreground and concentrate on and make you take away from the series. 469 00:37:49.920 --> 00:37:51.960 I think it's a blessing in disguise. 470 00:37:52.019 --> 00:38:02.820 As I said, this is the episode that no one expected, but it's the one that was needed and required all of the stuff that we've discussed, the setup of torchwood, bad wolf relationships, et cetera. 471 00:38:02.940 --> 00:38:09.420 If it had been handled by somebody else, would the emotional payoff happen in the next 2 stories? 472 00:38:09.480 --> 00:38:20.460 Like if all of this stuff wasn't flagged to tie everything in, would it lessen the impact of this series and what people's perception of the writing and the plan and how he delivers the long game? 473 00:38:20.519 --> 00:38:26.579 It is a lovely scene as well, that bad wolf scene because the doctor's absent for the 1st half of the scene. 474 00:38:26.639 --> 00:38:31.980 He kind of disappears from the action and all the dialogue is between Margaret and Rose and Jack. 475 00:38:32.039 --> 00:38:36.539 And then it just cuts to the doctor, looking at his back, looking up at the words. 476 00:38:36.599 --> 00:38:39.239 And so it's given import in the direction. 477 00:38:39.239 --> 00:38:42.179 And so to then have it dismissed him, say, oh, it's nothing. 478 00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:43.380 It like hearing a word, you know? 479 00:38:43.440 --> 00:38:44.039 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 480 00:38:44.039 --> 00:38:46.260 And one of Rose's best eye rolls. 481 00:38:46.380 --> 00:39:00.599 You know, one of the things that Doctor Who going to a 42 minute format means that we have less of what Stephen Moffat calls talking cheaply and urgently in corridors and stuff, you know. 482 00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:04.920 That stuff gets cut out and it is sort of wall-to-wall action. 483 00:39:04.980 --> 00:39:11.760 And that's good, I think, from a storytelling point of view, that means that Doctor Who is more interesting. 484 00:39:11.820 --> 00:39:18.840 A story that takes 4 episodes to tell can now be told in much less than half the time. 485 00:39:18.900 --> 00:39:21.659 And I think that that's good. 486 00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:34.440 But I think that this story does a lot of just standing around talking and getting to know characters, it doesn't have to have relentless nonstop action. 487 00:39:34.500 --> 00:39:35.820 And I miss that. 488 00:39:35.880 --> 00:39:38.039 I would like to see more of that in Doctor Who. 489 00:39:38.099 --> 00:39:39.480 What's standing around talking? 490 00:39:39.539 --> 00:39:43.260 Yeah, I would like to see just a little bit more character interaction. 491 00:39:43.320 --> 00:39:46.980 I don't think we need to have a big alien threat every week. 492 00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:49.679 I think we could have a week off every so often. 493 00:39:49.739 --> 00:39:54.719 And it's a structural thing as well, because a lot of modern Doctor Who covers a lot of time. 494 00:39:54.719 --> 00:40:02.579 And so you jump time sequences, whereas in Boomtown, you get the impression that most scenes are pretty well following from the one that came before. 495 00:40:03.179 --> 00:40:05.099 A couple of points. 496 00:40:05.159 --> 00:40:17.280 One, by having these 42 minute episodes with a 13 episode structure, you actually get the opportunity to have these type of stories, to take the place of having these scenes in other stories. 497 00:40:17.340 --> 00:40:27.480 I think you need this sort of story once or twice a season to give us that feel of characters talking around and that sort of resonance of character development. 498 00:40:27.539 --> 00:40:35.400 So I think the new way of telling stories in modern television and allows episodes like this to happen. 499 00:40:35.460 --> 00:40:40.139 Spoiler alert, like series 11 is going to have 50 minute episodes as opposed to 42. 500 00:40:40.320 --> 00:40:46.860 Is that extra 8 minutes going to be enough to put in more sequences of standing around in corridors? 501 00:40:46.920 --> 00:40:56.579 Like, I'm just putting it out there that you might get more of that with Series 11 that's either on now or about to, well, beyond by the time this comes out, I guess. 502 00:40:56.639 --> 00:40:59.639 Be interesting to see if we think about that when we watch. 503 00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:01.800 Yeah, it will be interesting, I think. 504 00:41:01.860 --> 00:41:02.940 I want that stuff. 505 00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:16.079 I just don't think TV can be what it was, where you just have Sarah Jane, who is a person with no particular characteristics other than that she's played by Liz Slade and that she gets thrown downstairs every so often. 506 00:41:16.139 --> 00:41:17.519 Yeah, yeah. 507 00:41:17.579 --> 00:41:21.659 But it's quite true. 42 minutes is not enough to put that in. 508 00:41:21.719 --> 00:41:23.159 Will 50 minutes be enough? 509 00:41:23.219 --> 00:41:26.820 If Doctor Who came back as 60 minute episodes, would you have got that mix? 510 00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:28.800 I mean, it's all what if scenarios? 511 00:41:28.920 --> 00:41:33.780 Referring back to what I was saying earlier about this, the episode that makes Captain Jack a companion. 512 00:41:33.840 --> 00:41:36.840 The reason it makes him a companion is he's not driving a plot. 513 00:41:36.900 --> 00:41:37.800 He's not there for a reason. 514 00:41:37.860 --> 00:41:41.400 He's just pottering around in the background doing companion stuff. 515 00:41:41.460 --> 00:41:42.719 Yeah, he's being Nissa. 516 00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:44.639 Yes, I was about to say that. 517 00:41:44.699 --> 00:41:46.920 He was Anissa all along. 518 00:41:46.980 --> 00:41:51.059 I think you find he knows quite a bit about telebiogenesis. 519 00:41:52.139 --> 00:41:54.059 Almost certainly. 520 00:41:57.179 --> 00:41:59.400 I love BTown. 521 00:41:59.460 --> 00:42:01.559 I think it's a brilliant episode, but not everyone does. 522 00:42:01.619 --> 00:42:06.480 And I don't genuinely understand why people don't like it because it's so much fun. 523 00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:14.460 I think maybe if there's a Kinsey scale of gun and frock in Doctor Who, then Boomtown is a very definite 6. 524 00:42:14.579 --> 00:42:19.860 It's very frock, maybe the most frocky episode since something like the Androids of Tara. 525 00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:21.719 There's no gun going on in it. 526 00:42:21.780 --> 00:42:23.760 There's no people pointing guns at each other. 527 00:42:23.820 --> 00:42:26.340 There's no, you know, it's all character drama. 528 00:42:26.400 --> 00:42:31.199 And, you know, I think maybe if you think tack the site, but is that alt drama, then it's not for you. 529 00:42:31.260 --> 00:42:36.059 I think Phandom has a problem with anxiety about not being taken seriously. 530 00:42:36.119 --> 00:42:56.760 And because we're fans of something that is kind of opaque and inexplicable to a lot of people, and perhaps because we've even endured playground teasing in high school for having liked it. acutely sensitive to things not being taken seriously. 531 00:42:56.820 --> 00:43:01.500 And because Boomtown throws away the alien thread. 532 00:43:01.559 --> 00:43:08.099 And because in Boomtown, it's solved in such a Scooby-Doo way. 533 00:43:08.099 --> 00:43:15.119 And because the threat is so deliberately silly and cartoonyish, I think people may not like it for that reason. 534 00:43:15.179 --> 00:43:17.880 And I think it's easy to conflate silliness. 535 00:43:17.940 --> 00:43:28.619 So it's the silliness of a monster looking a bit NAF or a wobbling and the silliness of being whimsical in the script and so people conflate it as it's all just silly and I don't like it. 536 00:43:28.679 --> 00:43:33.119 And that was my initial reaction to this back in the day. 537 00:43:33.179 --> 00:43:35.159 Oh god, it's the Celine again. 538 00:43:35.219 --> 00:43:36.300 Oh, it's a comedy episode. 539 00:43:36.360 --> 00:43:37.920 Oh, there's no real threat. 540 00:43:37.980 --> 00:43:39.659 This is really stupid, right? 541 00:43:39.719 --> 00:43:44.159 So I was very dismissive, especially considering the stakes of the 2 stories around. 542 00:43:44.460 --> 00:44:11.699 So I think if you come to it at a certain level of understanding, I'm going to say superficial, but if you glance at it at a certain level, you could dismiss it and go, I don't really like this, but when you start to actually watch it and analyse it like what we've just done in the last 50 minutes, this is a really enjoyable, critical episode that is undervalued and should be appreciated by a lot more people. 543 00:44:11.760 --> 00:44:13.739 And it's a very important episode. 544 00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:17.460 I mean, bad wolf parting way is an important episode, but so is this. 545 00:44:17.519 --> 00:44:18.599 It's important for the series. 546 00:44:45.719 --> 00:44:49.320 Well, they listen about about all we have time for this week. 547 00:44:49.380 --> 00:44:56.280 We're heading off to infiltrate the television landscape of an entire empire, which means we'll see you next week for Bad Wolf. 548 00:44:56.340 --> 00:45:04.739 In the meantime, you can find us at Flightthrough Entirety.com, flight through Entirety on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at FDE podcast on Twitter. 549 00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:11.880 If you'd like to hear more of this kind of nonsense, then why not check out Bondfinger, our James Bond commentary podcast. 550 00:45:11.940 --> 00:45:17.400 That's bondfinger.com, bondfinger on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at bondfingercast on Twitter. 551 00:45:17.519 --> 00:45:25.500 Until next time, may you always remember when dining out on the Planet Raxacorrico Fallapatorius, don't order the soup. 552 00:45:25.559 --> 00:45:27.539 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 553 00:45:27.599 --> 00:45:28.619 See you soon. 554 00:45:28.679 --> 00:45:29.940 A fascinating discussion. 555 00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:30.360 Goodbye. 556 00:45:36.420 --> 00:45:45.059 That was Flight 3 Entirety, starring Todd BLB, Nathan Bottomley, and Peter Griffiths, theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings Performance by Jane Allberg. 557 00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:51.059 This episode, going one-on-one, was recorded on the 5th of August 2018 and released on the 4th of November. 558 00:45:52.679 --> 00:46:01.860 And if you want to hear our immediate reaction to each new episode of Jodie Whittaker's new series, just tune in to our new flash cast, Jodie Interterra. 559 00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:06.000 That's Jody Intoterra.com and Jody Interterra on Apple Podcasts. 560 00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:09.239 Maybe that gets to be the end. 561 00:46:09.300 --> 00:46:11.039 That's pretty good. 562 00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:12.840 Either all. 563 00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:14.219 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 564 00:46:14.280 --> 00:46:15.179 Working around. 565 00:46:16.019 --> 00:46:17.880 Yeah, yeah. 566 00:46:17.940 --> 00:46:31.559 This is what happens when we when we do this podcast is that you I walk away going, 0 my goodness, it happens. like you come in with preconceptions and then we have discussion and and I'm enlightened. 567 00:46:32.159 --> 00:46:36.239 Or you're enlightened or you go areas you just don't think you'd ever go to. 568 00:46:37.019 --> 00:46:40.079 I never thought about Captain Jack and Lisa. 569 00:46:40.380 --> 00:46:43.260 That's when I was watching it this time. 570 00:46:43.320 --> 00:46:46.800 I thought, oh, she's here making a thing to smash an Android. 571 00:46:47.400 --> 00:46:49.500 He gets to... 572 00:46:49.619 --> 00:46:51.900 Well, it's because you've got those 2 dinners. 573 00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:52.559 Do you know what I mean? 574 00:46:52.619 --> 00:46:54.119 And so there's nowhere for Jack to be. 575 00:46:54.179 --> 00:46:57.659 You've, yeah, he's, he's a 3rd wheel in that, in that bit. 576 00:47:00.780 --> 00:47:01.980 No. 577 00:47:02.519 --> 00:47:04.980 Just shag a bunch of lepers. 578 00:47:05.039 --> 00:47:06.539 All right. 579 00:47:07.739 --> 00:47:10.860 I don't know until next time. 580 00:47:10.920 --> 00:47:12.000 Until next time. 581 00:47:12.059 --> 00:47:16.559 May you, then then arrived before I could... 582 00:47:16.559 --> 00:47:17.400 And fall apart. 583 00:47:17.460 --> 00:47:18.900 What are we doing next time? 584 00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:21.659 Until next time until next time. 585 00:47:21.719 --> 00:47:23.159 May you... 586 00:47:29.699 --> 00:47:36.719 Remember never to order the soup at a Rexacorricofalipatorian restaurant. sounds good. 587 00:47:36.780 --> 00:47:37.920 The next time. 588 00:47:38.820 --> 00:47:43.800 Yeah, because the soup is Margaret Slovine, you see, being melted into us. 589 00:47:43.980 --> 00:47:45.480 Soup. 590 00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:46.739 It's an eternal order. 591 00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:48.059 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 592 00:47:48.119 --> 00:47:49.019 Still alive. 593 00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:51.480 You always remember. 594 00:47:51.539 --> 00:47:53.460 Not to order the soup. 595 00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:56.460 No, may you remember until next time. 596 00:47:56.940 --> 00:48:00.480 Remember, because it's always a Mayu. 597 00:48:00.539 --> 00:48:01.619 It hard to say, isn't it? 598 00:48:01.679 --> 00:48:06.239 Until next time, may you avoid ordering the soup? 599 00:48:06.300 --> 00:48:08.219 No, but it needs to go at the end. 600 00:48:08.280 --> 00:48:10.860 The ordering the soup needs to go at the end of it for it be a joke. 601 00:48:10.920 --> 00:48:22.800 So until next time, uh, when you're at, when you, until next time, I don't want to say next again. 602 00:48:22.860 --> 00:48:29.460 So next time you're at Araxacoracopal... next time, I can't say next time again. 603 00:48:30.900 --> 00:48:34.860 May you remember the next, may you remember? 604 00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:35.820 When you dine? 605 00:48:35.880 --> 00:48:38.760 Yeah, when you dine on Rights of Coron Hotel, Notorious. 606 00:48:41.820 --> 00:48:43.920 What are the Margaret's sleeping? 607 00:48:43.920 --> 00:48:46.800 The blonde flat... 608 00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:49.139 Plus in Jets Lane soup. 609 00:48:49.619 --> 00:48:54.360 That is an awesome line repleading for mercy out of the dead woman's. 610 00:48:57.539 --> 00:49:01.380 That's what Stockaking and Waterman said to the Reynolds girls. 611 00:49:01.440 --> 00:49:03.300 You finally said it to Noel. 612 00:49:03.360 --> 00:49:04.260 No, I didn't go there. 613 00:49:04.320 --> 00:49:11.820 You did. try this Is it to Jackie or Siobhan? 614 00:49:11.820 --> 00:49:15.599 To Jackie. 615 00:49:15.659 --> 00:49:16.440 Oh, dear. 616 00:49:16.440 --> 00:49:25.500 Well, dear listener, that's... 617 00:49:25.500 --> 00:49:26.280 That's blue. 618 00:49:26.400 --> 00:49:27.300 No, that's fear her. 619 00:49:27.300 --> 00:49:28.679 Blompell fotch. 620 00:49:28.739 --> 00:49:29.699 It has to be nice of me. 621 00:49:31.079 --> 00:49:32.639 So bad. 622 00:49:32.699 --> 00:49:34.260 Brandon wants to do it. 623 00:49:34.320 --> 00:49:35.699 I think he wants through a demon. 624 00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:41.099 If I'm doing the last 3 episodes, whatever it is, I'll have to get a rant. 625 00:49:41.159 --> 00:49:42.420 So bad. 626 00:49:42.599 --> 00:49:46.320 Well, dear listener, that's about all we have time for this week. 627 00:49:46.380 --> 00:49:53.099 We're heading off to infiltrate the entire television landscape, which means that we'll see you next week for Bad Wolf.