WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:13:16 1 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:46.799 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast, whose analysis of any given Doctor Who episode does not in any way constitute a form of legal contract. 2 00:00:46.859 --> 00:00:48.000 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:48.060 --> 00:00:48.899 I'm Todd. 4 00:00:48.960 --> 00:00:49.859 I'm James. 5 00:00:49.920 --> 00:00:53.219 I'm a thinly stretched plot device for this episode. 6 00:00:53.280 --> 00:00:55.259 Happy year, everyone. 7 00:00:55.320 --> 00:01:04.799 Yeah, so it's a new year, a new season, and a new, new doctor, which means it must be time for us to see what we think of new whose difficult 2nd album. 8 00:01:04.859 --> 00:01:08.280 Let's start by taking a trip to New Earth. 9 00:01:23.760 --> 00:01:33.780 The windiest place in Wales, not the air that buffets between Billy's teeth whenever she grins on a landmark, but... 10 00:01:33.780 --> 00:01:35.040 I thought she's breathing out through a note. 11 00:01:35.099 --> 00:01:36.420 Yes, ouch. 12 00:01:36.480 --> 00:01:38.879 Has she got new, new, new, new, new, taken this? 13 00:01:38.939 --> 00:01:39.540 Not yet. 14 00:01:39.540 --> 00:01:40.799 Not yet. 15 00:01:40.859 --> 00:01:42.900 They're her season 4 teeth. 16 00:01:43.019 --> 00:01:55.260 We refer to the gentle listener to the big chief, 12 inch dolly of her that is possibly the cruellest piece of casting I've ever seen since. 17 00:01:55.319 --> 00:01:58.140 Oh, actually, no, there's some pretty cruel casting in this episode too. 18 00:01:59.040 --> 00:02:08.759 When we did Black Orchid, I suggested that the garden party in Black Orchid was taking place on the Planet Castria after all the barriers had fallen. 19 00:02:09.840 --> 00:02:14.639 And this is very much the same. next door. 20 00:02:14.699 --> 00:02:16.139 Yeah, just next door. 21 00:02:16.199 --> 00:02:18.900 And it was still warm enough to let Janet fall. 22 00:02:19.020 --> 00:02:20.340 Exactly. 23 00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:27.539 So it is, I mean, it's a beautiful location and it is our 1st alien planet. 24 00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:33.180 They've obviously been very reluctant to do an alien planet for a couple of reasons. 25 00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:38.580 I think to not alienate the audience, but also because they didn't want to do it crackly. 26 00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:40.979 They didn't want to just go to a quarry endorse it, you know. 27 00:02:40.979 --> 00:02:43.199 They went to a cliff edge in Wales. 28 00:02:43.259 --> 00:02:44.460 Exactly. 29 00:02:45.300 --> 00:02:48.060 This is their 1st alien planet, isn't it? 30 00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:48.659 Yeah, yeah. 31 00:02:48.719 --> 00:02:49.500 Yeah, okay. 32 00:02:49.860 --> 00:02:51.300 But before that happens, of course. 33 00:02:51.419 --> 00:02:53.879 We have a little introduction to the new series. 34 00:02:53.939 --> 00:02:56.520 So the pre-credits teaser. 35 00:02:56.699 --> 00:03:01.319 Very, very quickly and efficiently reestablishes what the series is about. 36 00:03:01.379 --> 00:03:05.400 So we get Jackie and Mickey and a farewell. 37 00:03:05.460 --> 00:03:06.060 Yes. 38 00:03:06.060 --> 00:03:06.539 Yeah. 39 00:03:06.599 --> 00:03:10.860 I guess we assume that this is them leaving after the Christmas invasion. 40 00:03:11.039 --> 00:03:16.259 Yes, I think so, and part of their contractual obligations for the season. 41 00:03:16.319 --> 00:03:17.639 Oh, just to have them back. 42 00:03:17.699 --> 00:03:20.340 Well, you know, got to be in 6 episodes. 43 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:21.840 Here you go, here's your cameo. 44 00:03:22.020 --> 00:03:30.719 It's implied in latest stories and in, I think, some of the books that they actually stayed there for quite a while. 45 00:03:30.780 --> 00:03:32.520 It's actually quite a while after Christmas. 46 00:03:32.580 --> 00:03:35.639 It is actually, doesn't, doesn't look it on the telly. 47 00:03:36.360 --> 00:03:40.379 I guess, so that you can fit big finish stories in between them. 48 00:03:40.439 --> 00:03:42.780 I always think there's a couple of days max. 49 00:03:42.840 --> 00:03:49.560 Yeah, I liked it a lot, actually, because it recaptured the moment at the end of World War three. 50 00:03:49.620 --> 00:04:00.360 You notice that Jackie can't bear to watch the TARDIS materialise and she walks off and Mickey is just there, you know, staring at it as it goes. 51 00:04:00.419 --> 00:04:10.680 And notice, too, that both Jackie and Mickey say, I love you, I think, to Rose, and Rose says it back to Jackie, but not to Mickey. 52 00:04:10.740 --> 00:04:12.780 Not to Mickey because she's a cow. 53 00:04:12.900 --> 00:04:15.120 She's really, she really is. 54 00:04:15.180 --> 00:04:19.379 She's awful. you'll be hearing a lot more of that this year. 55 00:04:20.220 --> 00:04:26.339 I don't think David's very nice too. splashing the Nashes in this episode, aren't they? 56 00:04:26.459 --> 00:04:27.839 There's a lot of gnashing. 57 00:04:27.899 --> 00:04:29.100 A lot of new teeth. 58 00:04:29.160 --> 00:04:29.819 Oh man. 59 00:04:29.939 --> 00:04:31.259 I think you've said this before. 60 00:04:31.319 --> 00:04:33.360 Rose is supposed to be a unlikeable character. 61 00:04:33.420 --> 00:04:35.579 Well, Billy says she is. 62 00:04:35.639 --> 00:04:37.259 That's how she was playing her. 63 00:04:37.379 --> 00:04:41.339 Yeah, I don't know that she's unlikeable, but I do think that she's kind of selfish. 64 00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:44.819 But Russell's also said that's himself when he was younger. 65 00:04:44.879 --> 00:04:51.839 So, well, he's, you know, he's given her the name Tyler, which is the name that he gives all his characters. 66 00:04:51.959 --> 00:04:54.899 He's basically named her after himself. 67 00:04:54.959 --> 00:05:02.279 Like, you know, it's very definitely who he imagined he was when he was watching Doctor Who in the 70s, I think. 68 00:05:02.819 --> 00:05:04.980 Russell Tyler Davies. 69 00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:07.560 Yeah, Russell Tyler Davies, Russell Ver Davies. 70 00:05:08.819 --> 00:05:11.339 Is that what the T actually stands for? 71 00:05:11.399 --> 00:05:12.480 No, stands for not. 72 00:05:12.480 --> 00:05:13.139 TARDIS. 73 00:05:13.199 --> 00:05:18.360 It was already a Russell Davis in equity, and so he just added the tea. 74 00:05:18.420 --> 00:05:20.220 Tiberius TARDIS. 75 00:05:20.939 --> 00:05:22.199 It stands for tea. 76 00:05:28.259 --> 00:05:29.220 It's interesting. 77 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:36.899 This series opener of the 4 that Russell writes is always the one that I always considered to be not as good as all the others. 78 00:05:37.019 --> 00:05:38.160 I agree. 79 00:05:38.220 --> 00:05:41.519 However, the day after. 80 00:05:41.579 --> 00:05:54.420 In this rewatch, you know, I think a year later after Rose, already the graphics work looks so much better in this than the previous year, which looks really dated. 81 00:05:54.540 --> 00:06:01.259 And I actually think the story itself hangs together much better than all the set pieces in Rome. 82 00:06:01.319 --> 00:06:08.519 So even if I don't think it's necessarily realised towards the end, the best. 83 00:06:08.699 --> 00:06:10.319 But I actually enjoyed this. 84 00:06:10.379 --> 00:06:14.639 Certainly the 1st 30 minutes a lot more than I previously had. 85 00:06:14.699 --> 00:06:19.319 And I was talking to friends of the podcast, someone more about this during the week. 86 00:06:19.319 --> 00:06:37.079 And we were saying like in these 1st 2 seasons, because I think we were so worried that the show could get cancelled either because it's new or it's new doctor, whenever there's an episode that's slightly, whatever we perceive to be below quality, we think the ratings are going to crash in and we sort of project onto it that it's really that terrible. 87 00:06:37.139 --> 00:06:49.019 So I was actually really surprised at, certainly for the first, you know, half an hour or so, that I was actually really enjoying it and found down the performances and what was going on and the story. 88 00:06:49.079 --> 00:06:50.459 Really good. 89 00:06:50.519 --> 00:07:15.000 I think we've talked a little bit before about how much weight. we put on Doctor Who, each new episode back then when it was 1st starting, and that's exactly what you were saying, because New Earth wasn't as good as Rose or wasn't as, you know, explosive and and interesting as Rose, we were worried that the show was going to, you know, had lost its mojo. 90 00:07:15.060 --> 00:07:21.839 And I think because we've got the Christmas invasion as well, introducing the 2nd season, really. 91 00:07:22.319 --> 00:07:29.699 The opening episode doesn't have to do everything that the previous opening episodes and the 2 subsequent opening episodes have to do. 92 00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:31.560 It doesn't have to introduce a new character. 93 00:07:31.620 --> 00:07:34.680 It really is just us off and adventure together. 94 00:07:34.740 --> 00:07:36.120 But it is interesting. 95 00:07:36.180 --> 00:07:50.160 I think the fact that, you know, here you've got Mickey and Jackie there at the beginning, you've got a recurring villain in the Lady Cassandra, you've got New New Earth, which is like right next door to platform 5 or one or whatever it was back in. 96 00:07:50.220 --> 00:07:52.860 The 2nd episode, you've got the face of bow. 97 00:07:52.920 --> 00:07:58.920 There's a lot of elements here that are trying to, you know, say to the audience, This is still the same show. 98 00:07:58.980 --> 00:08:00.300 In a coherent world. 99 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:05.519 Even if we've got a new doctor, because, you know, we've only had the new doctor really for, you know, 20 minutes or whatever. 100 00:08:05.579 --> 00:08:07.560 This is his 1st big outing. 101 00:08:07.620 --> 00:08:08.759 Yeah. 102 00:08:08.819 --> 00:08:13.079 His, you know, we didn't do a proper episode of the Christmas invasion. 103 00:08:13.139 --> 00:08:25.980 Obviously, we just did a commentary, but, you know, the big thing about the Christmas invasion is it works because it's full of characters that we already like and that enables Russell to keep the doctor off stage for a long time. 104 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:35.039 Now he's here, giving him a world that we already know from a, you know, well liked previous episode, a pretty well-remembered episode, I think. 105 00:08:35.100 --> 00:08:37.860 Boomtown, because you've got that big Welsh cultural centre. 106 00:08:37.980 --> 00:08:41.519 Yeah, slap bang as the obvious hospital. 107 00:08:41.639 --> 00:08:45.779 It's the millennium, the millennium centre on Cardiff Bay, which... 108 00:08:45.779 --> 00:08:46.860 Oh, as a hospital. 109 00:08:46.919 --> 00:08:47.639 Yeah, yeah. 110 00:08:47.700 --> 00:08:50.340 Yeah, I was watching it going, oh, I've been in that foyer. 111 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:54.000 In fact, that toy... can't remember. 112 00:08:54.059 --> 00:09:07.320 That foyer will be another hospital in the girl who waited in a few years, and of course, that building provided all of the corridors for Van Staten's base in Dalek, and it appears over and over again. 113 00:09:07.379 --> 00:09:08.580 So that's Millennium Stadium. 114 00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:11.159 It's the basement of the football stadium. 115 00:09:11.220 --> 00:09:13.080 Oh, just see, they've got that one. 116 00:09:13.139 --> 00:09:15.960 There's more than one public building in Wales. you sure? 117 00:09:16.019 --> 00:09:18.240 Yes, they're all called millenniums. 118 00:09:18.299 --> 00:09:21.299 Because that's the only time they ever spend any money. 119 00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:33.120 But it's very interesting in those 1st few minutes how well the doctor and rows are getting on and how, you know, they're smiling at each other and they're sort of, you know, reinforcing this is our 1st date and everything. 120 00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:38.039 And she's accepted him as the new man after the, you know, the Christmas special. 121 00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:40.080 So sort of, you know, Sandy's audience. 122 00:09:40.139 --> 00:09:43.200 Yes, he's the doctor and she loves him, so you need to as well. 123 00:09:43.259 --> 00:09:46.259 In fact, it's upped a bit, hasn't it? 124 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:52.740 Like the relationship is much more clearly approaching boyfriend girlfriend. 125 00:09:52.799 --> 00:09:54.179 Oh, I love being here. 126 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:54.899 I love it. 127 00:09:57.480 --> 00:10:00.240 I can't believe that's not Billy Piper. 128 00:10:00.299 --> 00:10:02.700 I can't believe it's not Sophie. 129 00:10:02.820 --> 00:10:10.440 We've just got the, I've just got the whole tourism, Wales, spend your honeymoon on the grass and we'll spray it with apple cider. 130 00:10:10.559 --> 00:10:18.899 No, they're already completely abominable. obnoxious and I just want them to have something horrible happen to them. 131 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:20.279 Fortunately, it does. 132 00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:22.799 Really quickly. 133 00:10:22.860 --> 00:10:26.220 The wet t-shirt competition is the most jarring thing. 134 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:30.240 And the only thing that actually revived my my attention this time around. 135 00:10:30.299 --> 00:10:31.500 I remember this being quite dull. 136 00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:33.360 And it certainly hits a lot of beats. 137 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:35.100 And it also looks incredibly cheap. 138 00:10:35.100 --> 00:10:37.139 And yet it's the most expensive prosthetics. 139 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:37.799 I think they would have. 140 00:10:37.919 --> 00:10:40.019 It's a very costly thing to do for TV. 141 00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:48.240 But again, if I had all the dollies, you feel this is just like finding a lot of toys in the toy bus and going, I'll put them all on the table and have an adventure. 142 00:10:48.299 --> 00:10:50.519 I think that's how he writes his synopsis. 143 00:10:50.580 --> 00:10:52.080 What were you going to say about the wet t-shirt? 144 00:10:52.139 --> 00:10:53.279 T-shirt competition. 145 00:10:53.340 --> 00:10:57.419 Billy Piper did not know that she was going to get sprayed with me. 146 00:10:57.480 --> 00:10:59.159 So that's a real reaction? 147 00:10:59.220 --> 00:10:59.879 Yes, yes. 148 00:10:59.940 --> 00:11:01.440 Russell did not tell her. 149 00:11:01.980 --> 00:11:05.039 And the director didn't tell her that that was going to happen. 150 00:11:05.100 --> 00:11:08.220 And so that is her real reaction. 151 00:11:08.279 --> 00:11:09.240 But she doesn't swear. 152 00:11:09.299 --> 00:11:11.700 But they, like, pro. 153 00:11:11.759 --> 00:11:12.960 And her teeth staying. 154 00:11:14.220 --> 00:11:17.039 But they kept it in because it was so hilarious. 155 00:11:17.100 --> 00:11:18.179 I like that. 156 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:20.039 I like that whole. so silly. 157 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:24.299 Well, I think Russell says in the commentary that it makes them part of the world. 158 00:11:24.360 --> 00:11:31.259 So they're not just wandering around on obvious set or, you know, a public building in Cardiff. 159 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:33.840 They are wet. 160 00:11:33.899 --> 00:11:35.159 They are in the world. 161 00:11:35.220 --> 00:11:37.440 Something happens to them that makes them part of the world. 162 00:11:37.500 --> 00:11:44.220 And it's a fun, silly comedy bit that is ends up being crucial to the way that the episode is finally resolved. 163 00:11:44.279 --> 00:11:47.460 So I think it's really very good. 164 00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:52.679 And again, it's Russell's obsession with verticality and lifts and things as well. 165 00:11:52.740 --> 00:11:56.759 They get in different lifts by mistake and one goes up and one goes down. 166 00:11:56.820 --> 00:11:59.639 Billy gets out to the wrong lift. 167 00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:00.779 Oh, does she? 168 00:12:00.840 --> 00:12:01.019 Yeah. 169 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:03.059 She gets into the right lift, gets out the left. 170 00:12:03.179 --> 00:12:04.740 There you go. 171 00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:07.019 That could have been the tradesman's entrance or something. 172 00:12:07.259 --> 00:12:09.659 It was sideways very quickly. 173 00:12:09.720 --> 00:12:10.980 Sideways, really quickly. 174 00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:12.840 No, I'm not going to touch that remark. 175 00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:16.740 Yeah, every Shakespeare had a forested Arden, didn't he? 176 00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:21.539 But, you know, well, doors off stage, but it's a nice little theatre trope 1st of the year. 177 00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:26.220 But yeah, not like that whole lift sequence. 178 00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:28.080 I just, yeah, it's just delightful. 179 00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:35.460 And it's so silly, like, you know, the fact that, you know, it gets totally drenched, then totally dried with powder and everything and it's just perfectly fine to walk out, you know? 180 00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:37.200 It doesn't quite make sense. 181 00:12:37.259 --> 00:12:39.480 Like you kind of think, no, you couldn't be completely dry. 182 00:12:39.539 --> 00:12:40.019 But you are. 183 00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:41.820 So, you know, yeah. 184 00:12:41.940 --> 00:12:43.440 You know, it's a fast drying poison. 185 00:12:43.500 --> 00:12:43.799 I mean. 186 00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:50.879 You know, it reminds me of Peter Tottenham shouting out, sterile area in arc in space. 187 00:12:51.720 --> 00:13:02.399 And notice it would have been called decontamination in the Hinchcliffe era, but here it's just called disinfectant because, you know, we're trying to keep it comprehensible to the viewers at home, I think. 188 00:13:02.460 --> 00:13:08.820 Yeah, because viewers back in the 70s actually had wide vocabulary because they read things. 189 00:13:08.879 --> 00:13:10.019 They did. 190 00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:13.259 I was alive in the 70s. 191 00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:14.039 I do understand. 192 00:13:14.100 --> 00:13:16.620 Constant fear of nuclear war. 193 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:18.480 That helped too. 194 00:13:22.259 --> 00:13:24.840 So one goes up and one goes down. 195 00:13:24.899 --> 00:13:26.100 What do we want to talk about first? 196 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:38.340 So we knew Cassandra was going to be in it because we'd heard her voice and we had seen the little spider thing creeping through the apple grass when we were still on location. 197 00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:45.720 I was a little bit disappointed, kind of, at the incredibly pat. 198 00:13:45.779 --> 00:13:49.500 Well, as Richard said, sort of plot device that enables her to come back. 199 00:13:49.980 --> 00:14:12.779 You remember when we did the end of the world, I said that, well, I think James said that Cassandra was literally mooning the audience, that the whole, that the whole directly behind her mouth was her bum hole, um, she'd had everything removed and was just, uh, like all of us are sort of, um, hollow tube. 200 00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:15.000 Oh, the other. 201 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:16.259 Nothing in between. 202 00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:18.600 It's alimentary to Watson. 203 00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:19.379 That's it. 204 00:14:19.379 --> 00:14:23.100 It is extremely obvious in end of the world. 205 00:14:23.159 --> 00:14:24.960 Yeah, it's meant to be that. 206 00:14:25.019 --> 00:14:30.120 But here they kind of throw that away and say that was her front half and this is her back half and it makes no sense. 207 00:14:30.179 --> 00:14:32.100 I like that we get to see her all halves. 208 00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:35.879 It's lovely to see Zoe Wanamaker in a frock camping it up. 209 00:14:35.940 --> 00:14:38.279 With a whole lot of Nelly Queens. 210 00:14:38.340 --> 00:14:41.460 It's like, you're not getting lots of attention in this one other than comments on your dress. 211 00:14:41.519 --> 00:14:44.399 No wonder, no wonder no one told you you're beautiful. 212 00:14:44.580 --> 00:14:45.960 Exactly. 213 00:14:46.740 --> 00:14:50.340 It's nice. actually nice to see her on screen in the film projection. 214 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:59.220 I assume that that's recorded as a film projection because she was that film was taken at a 1920s party, so they decided to do it like that because... 215 00:14:59.220 --> 00:15:03.299 I also just sort of think that looks cooler than just a sort of dumb old screen. 216 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:06.360 Like, again, it gives it a little bit more physicality and stuff. 217 00:15:06.419 --> 00:15:15.480 And Doctor Who, you know, like leaning into the fact that their technology is always going to look a little bit crummy or a little bit store bored. 218 00:15:15.539 --> 00:15:18.299 I thought that was a nice choice. 219 00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:24.899 Yeah, but it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense in your head, Canon, Todd, does a pretty good job of dealing with it, I think. 220 00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:28.259 She filmed everything in one day. 221 00:15:28.379 --> 00:15:29.879 In that dress? 222 00:15:29.940 --> 00:15:32.399 Yes, in that dress. 223 00:15:32.399 --> 00:15:33.120 And stretched it out. 224 00:15:34.019 --> 00:15:36.000 Yeah, and she is very good. 225 00:15:36.059 --> 00:15:38.519 And you can see why they want her back and she's funny. 226 00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:46.080 So in my research, I discovered that apparently, sorry, Wanamaker is in stage for decay episode two. 227 00:15:46.139 --> 00:15:47.039 What? 228 00:15:47.100 --> 00:15:50.220 According to IMDb, so that might all just... 229 00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:55.019 Well, it's IMDb. as a child villager. 230 00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:56.639 She wasn't that young. 231 00:15:56.759 --> 00:16:00.840 I thought she was Mr. Kimber or whatever that name. person's name is. 232 00:16:00.899 --> 00:16:02.279 She's a bit older than me. 233 00:16:02.820 --> 00:16:05.759 Actually, though, that was a while ago, isn't it? 234 00:16:07.259 --> 00:16:08.159 isn't it? 235 00:16:08.220 --> 00:16:15.779 Actually, that's possible because she came over, her dad's same want to make her as the American director and actor who had to get out because of the MacArthy stuff. 236 00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:16.860 He didn't work for a long time. 237 00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:21.360 He's in lots of episodes of the Avengers, the champions, the Baron, the Saint. 238 00:16:21.419 --> 00:16:24.120 That's instrumental in the recreation, the globe. 239 00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:30.899 Exactly, which he was going to say, which he's most famous for, is his theatre work, because he did not shite tea, is not just me. 240 00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:41.279 And he was, he would have had a better career, but the anger that he presents on screen is exactly how he presents in theatre and he wasn't an easy dad to grow up with. 241 00:16:41.340 --> 00:16:45.600 And Zoe has kind of said that and also apparently presents a similar thing. 242 00:16:45.659 --> 00:16:47.580 I'm really sorry she wasn't in more Harry Potter. 243 00:16:47.639 --> 00:16:48.840 Well, you know what? 244 00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:49.799 But she's a bit mouthy. 245 00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:50.580 Yeah, yes. 246 00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:52.320 We back to the teeth. 247 00:16:52.379 --> 00:16:55.080 Well, I've got a couple of reaction shots. 248 00:16:55.139 --> 00:16:55.740 There, sorry. 249 00:16:55.740 --> 00:16:57.899 I'm way too French and short now. 250 00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:02.940 But she got really angry that the, what the American actors were paid more than the English actors or that. 251 00:17:02.940 --> 00:17:03.600 That's right. 252 00:17:03.659 --> 00:17:04.740 Bloody fair enough. 253 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:05.160 I agree. 254 00:17:05.220 --> 00:17:05.940 I absolutely agree. 255 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:14.279 I think it was also the kids were being paid so much because they complained and they were the stars, even though all of the, you know, you have Dame Bloody Maggie Smith. 256 00:17:14.339 --> 00:17:18.119 Yeah, yeah. it's not just the bee is silent, is it? 257 00:17:18.180 --> 00:17:19.019 It's the full time. 258 00:17:20.220 --> 00:17:21.900 Yeah. 259 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:23.519 Anyway, what else happens in this show? 260 00:17:23.579 --> 00:17:24.480 Oh, cats. 261 00:17:24.539 --> 00:17:26.819 I think Russell's actually spot on with cats. 262 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:29.099 So the cats thing as nuns. 263 00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:29.640 Where is that going? 264 00:17:29.700 --> 00:17:30.960 It is very strange. 265 00:17:31.019 --> 00:17:32.460 They're cat nun nurses. 266 00:17:32.460 --> 00:17:36.900 Well, you just said, stick an animal head on a dolly and you've got a monster. 267 00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:37.920 Yeah, yeah. 268 00:17:37.980 --> 00:17:40.140 Well, he'll do it later with the Jadoon as well. 269 00:17:40.500 --> 00:17:42.299 The cat. 270 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:46.799 The cat people would be back for the sequel to this, obviously, as well. 271 00:17:46.859 --> 00:17:49.500 I think the prosthetics look amazingly good. 272 00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:55.920 Like, I was hugely impressed by how expressive the actors can be under those. 273 00:17:55.980 --> 00:17:57.900 You know, they clearly move with the actors. 274 00:17:58.019 --> 00:17:59.460 What do we think at the time? 275 00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:03.000 Was it just the freshness and bling of it and not the sharp editing? 276 00:18:03.059 --> 00:18:05.400 We should give a throw to the director. 277 00:18:05.460 --> 00:18:06.480 It's James Hawes again? 278 00:18:06.539 --> 00:18:09.900 I think it is because it's just neatly done. 279 00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:12.119 You can see they've put everything into getting it right. 280 00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:13.680 Yes, it is James. 281 00:18:13.740 --> 00:18:15.420 The editing I really, really like. 282 00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:19.319 And then sometimes it's almost too quick, but again, that needs to be done. 283 00:18:19.380 --> 00:18:22.619 And it actually still feels quite fresh 80 years later. 284 00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:24.119 How long has it been? 285 00:18:24.180 --> 00:18:25.140 about that long. 286 00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:27.119 The cats the cats look wonderful. 287 00:18:27.180 --> 00:18:35.279 I mean, obviously the one budgetary thing is when they all have the veils over the top. you know, in the latter part of the episode. 288 00:18:35.339 --> 00:18:39.480 But the 3 main cats are all played by really amazingly strong actors. 289 00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:41.880 Hairy hursuit actors. 290 00:18:41.940 --> 00:18:44.339 Well, including, including Francine. 291 00:18:44.460 --> 00:18:48.000 Martha's mother who plays Julius Caesar. 292 00:18:48.059 --> 00:18:50.039 Yeah, who plays Matron Jatt. 293 00:18:50.099 --> 00:18:51.660 No, Casp. 294 00:18:51.660 --> 00:18:52.380 Casp. 295 00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:53.160 One of them. 296 00:18:53.220 --> 00:18:57.180 Anyway, not the older one, but the middle one who meets the doctor. 297 00:18:57.539 --> 00:19:00.240 You can always tell her... 298 00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:04.980 She did Julius Caesar at RSC, which is apparently extraordinary. love to see. 299 00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:09.180 Russell had her back for cucumber and she was very good in that as well. 300 00:19:09.240 --> 00:19:16.019 So she obviously will get a bigger role in next season. 301 00:19:16.380 --> 00:19:20.579 And, of course, in Mumcon when I finally organise it. 302 00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:24.299 She'll be one of the 3 main guests. right. 303 00:19:24.900 --> 00:19:28.440 And I think that they're really amazingly good. 304 00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:34.440 And it is also kind of Russell having another sly dig at religion because, is there? 305 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:35.400 I think so. 306 00:19:35.460 --> 00:19:39.779 I think the fact that, well, he kind of brings religion back into Doctor Who. 307 00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:44.700 You know, in the future that we used to have in Doctor Who, in Classic Doctor Who. 308 00:19:44.759 --> 00:19:49.559 There wasn't really religion except for sort of weird occultists on sort of strange planets and stuff. 309 00:19:49.619 --> 00:19:54.299 And someone being Marestron Orthodox in Planet of Evil. 310 00:19:54.359 --> 00:20:09.660 But now we do have religion and we're always slightly suspicious of it, I think, in Russell's Doctor Who, and here, obviously, these nuns are making complicated and dodgy ethical judgements. 311 00:20:09.720 --> 00:20:13.200 And so naturally they're kind of religious. 312 00:20:13.259 --> 00:20:25.140 I just like the way they sort of, they move and they just conspiratorily like talk to each other and the looks that they give and when she flares up her claws and, yeah, they're a great little villain to have. 313 00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:30.960 They're catlike in the sense that they glide and they're complete psychopaths. 314 00:20:31.440 --> 00:20:33.839 They kind of slink everywhere. 315 00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:35.279 They rub their arse. 316 00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:42.599 Again, they didn't strike me as particularly feline having lived with one for so long. 317 00:20:43.019 --> 00:20:47.279 This feels like a lovely post-New Year Panto. 318 00:20:47.339 --> 00:20:53.640 It actually feels like the panto we didn't get for Christmas in that there's the numbered players doing the serial things. 319 00:20:53.700 --> 00:20:56.339 They've even got all those green doors that open up and we're behind you. 320 00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:57.900 It's very, very panted. 321 00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:04.440 And then there's lots of squishy zitty things to squeeze if you're a teenage boy watching this in the privacy of your own video bedroom. 322 00:21:04.500 --> 00:21:07.500 You know, there's callouts to most of the audience here. 323 00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:19.200 I think my problem with this one is tonally, it all looks great, but tonally, it doesn't give me very much, and I'd like to feel more, say, for pretty much anyone in this. 324 00:21:19.259 --> 00:21:26.880 But the real, the real horror of what's going on, maybe it struck you, but I just found this all again a bit panto villains. 325 00:21:26.940 --> 00:21:29.220 I didn't really care for any of the people who were suffering. 326 00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:34.440 And then they moon about like they're on the set of Oprah, after all, being given a beauty treatment. 327 00:21:34.500 --> 00:21:36.720 It's all very woo-woo at the end of it. 328 00:21:36.779 --> 00:21:41.220 I didn't gentle touching, although actually that probably could have been a bit saucier. 329 00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:41.940 I couldn't it? 330 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:50.039 You know, in the original draft of the script, All of the diseased people were supposed to be killed by the doctor. 331 00:21:50.099 --> 00:21:51.240 Yeah, yeah. 332 00:21:51.299 --> 00:21:52.200 Really? 333 00:21:52.259 --> 00:21:53.460 That's so Russell isn't it? 334 00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:56.940 Well, because he's absolutely kind of bleak and cynical. 335 00:21:57.000 --> 00:22:01.680 He was going to put them all on a bus and have the Bannermen sort of fire a gun at it. 336 00:22:02.339 --> 00:22:08.880 But Moffatt, Moffatt, criticised him, but creating interesting characters and then melting. 337 00:22:08.940 --> 00:22:09.839 Melting them, yeah. 338 00:22:09.900 --> 00:22:15.599 But I mean, the thing is that it's got to establish that David Tennant is the doctor. 339 00:22:15.660 --> 00:22:21.539 And so having him cure a whole bunch of sick people and say if their lives seems obvious. 340 00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:28.019 Like it seems almost like, why are you even setting this in a hospital if that's not what you're going to do at the end? 341 00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:31.200 First drafts are just getting everything down and they're unfleshed out. 342 00:22:31.259 --> 00:22:31.859 Yeah. 343 00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:34.140 I think it absolutely fleshy metaphor, yeah. 344 00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:35.039 It had to be that. 345 00:22:35.099 --> 00:22:38.339 And so it's accident and emergency, isn't it? 346 00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:40.740 No, it's called intensive care, that section. 347 00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:49.680 And we discover that behind this sort of gleaming white hospital are these sort of catacombs full of people who are being experimented on. 348 00:22:49.740 --> 00:22:54.059 The catacombs look great and even the explosions, I think, do as well. 349 00:22:54.119 --> 00:22:58.619 I mean, this is a big step up from the effects from like one year ago. 350 00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:12.779 I don't think there's enough of these people, like, you know, downstairs or wherever and just talking about jumping forward and talking about the resolution, like, you know, yes, I've got one lift with some liquid water and it goes on a few of them and then they touch other people. 351 00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:16.980 That's the part of the episode that I find visually lets it down. 352 00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:21.720 Like, I want to see, I want to see multiple lifts with multiple lots of water and lots of people going in. 353 00:23:21.779 --> 00:23:23.220 Or feed it into the sprinkler system. 354 00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:24.180 Something like that. 355 00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:28.500 That's what falls down for me in terms of resolving the thing. 356 00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:31.019 I just think that looks very weak and cheap. 357 00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:45.960 Yeah, well, they can have, you know, giant catacombs because they're all just done in the computer, so it doesn't cost any more to make them absolutely massive, but they don't have quite as many extras as that shot would imply. 358 00:23:46.019 --> 00:23:53.339 And as Richard says, they're all just wandering around, you know, like they're on Mogadon or something. 359 00:23:53.400 --> 00:23:54.779 Maybe that was one of the cocktails. 360 00:23:54.839 --> 00:23:57.660 Yeah, maybe that was the Strokeats metaphors in this one. 361 00:23:57.720 --> 00:24:01.740 So for me, that part of things lets things down with this episode, right? 362 00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:06.779 Not the story, but how it's visually had to be represented on screen. 363 00:24:06.900 --> 00:24:09.480 What do you think about the doctor's reaction to it? 364 00:24:09.539 --> 00:24:19.259 So you've got this moral calculus where a group of people are being tortured in order to cure a larger group of people of their diseases? 365 00:24:19.319 --> 00:24:33.000 And so it's a sort of, you know, utilitarian or sort of consequentialist kind of moral calculation where you're hurting some people to help a larger number of people. 366 00:24:33.059 --> 00:24:42.599 And I think Doctor Who's morality is very definitely always come down on, you know, on the opposite side of that, that that's the wrong thing to do. 367 00:24:42.660 --> 00:24:47.519 How do you feel about the doctor's reaction when he discovers it? 368 00:24:47.579 --> 00:24:49.799 Doesn't he get very angry and teethy? 369 00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:50.940 Yeah, what do we think of that? 370 00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:53.099 Well, there's a lot of teeth. 371 00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:55.200 It was very David Tennant. 372 00:24:55.259 --> 00:25:04.559 Like, I think this aspect of this story is that he's very much the doctor. you know, there's one aspect I don't particularly like, which is the whole possession thing, but we'll talk about that shortly. 373 00:25:04.619 --> 00:25:07.380 But he's very established as the doctor. 374 00:25:07.380 --> 00:25:09.180 And does he give them one warning? 375 00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:09.779 Does he say that? 376 00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:10.140 Yeah. 377 00:25:10.140 --> 00:25:10.680 Yeah. 378 00:25:10.740 --> 00:25:15.539 And that, I'm watching slightly a few episodes ahead and that's come up a few times now. 379 00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:20.759 Like he gives this one morning and he did it last time, but then it's like, boom, you know, that's it, you know? 380 00:25:20.819 --> 00:25:23.579 Well, I mean, Jody did the New Year's special. 381 00:25:23.640 --> 00:25:25.200 She's still giving them one morning. 382 00:25:28.859 --> 00:25:34.740 So, I actually find this a little bit off putting. 383 00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:44.099 I think it's the weakest thing about tenants' performances when he gets angry and snarly and um, his performance is very mannered generally. 384 00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:47.579 And uh, it's like an act. 385 00:25:47.700 --> 00:25:56.400 And you kind of get that a little bit with Eccleston, where Eccleston is playing the doctor and that the doctor is in some sense a mask and then sometimes that mask drops. 386 00:25:56.519 --> 00:26:07.200 And then you get to see Eccleston's real trauma with the part and his own indecision and insecurity, and that's why he's a successful doctor, the mask falls. 387 00:26:07.259 --> 00:26:13.980 We never saw the mask full with Tom or Pat or even with John, occasionally with John. 388 00:26:14.039 --> 00:26:16.799 But that was actually quite interesting watching those again. 389 00:26:16.859 --> 00:26:19.740 But with David, no, I never see it. 390 00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:26.339 It's a very mannered, perfectly presented poised part, and I think that's why it's grating on me. 391 00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:31.019 I'd like to actually see something of the truth of the actor. 392 00:26:31.079 --> 00:26:31.799 I'm not getting it. 393 00:26:31.859 --> 00:26:41.579 There's something about the sort of lonely god thing, the fact that he's setting himself up as a kind of moral arbiter who decides whether something stops or not. 394 00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:43.920 He's the one who decides that. 395 00:26:43.980 --> 00:26:52.619 And the show is this year, like in 20, well, last year in 2018, has very definitely moved away from that conception of the doctor. 396 00:26:52.619 --> 00:27:00.539 But here I do find his anger, his arrogance really off putting, like really off putting. 397 00:27:00.599 --> 00:27:06.059 And I think it's great that the doctor gets angry at injustice and outrage. 398 00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:07.200 And we saw it with Tom. 399 00:27:07.259 --> 00:27:11.819 You know, we saw it with Pertu, even, you know, he would do that. 400 00:27:11.880 --> 00:27:16.740 But I just don't like the way that Tennant plays that particular emotion. 401 00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:18.240 Interesting. 402 00:27:18.299 --> 00:27:24.960 That this is discussion we're having because I didn't come into this thinking that so soon that we'd be talking about this. 403 00:27:25.019 --> 00:27:28.319 And I actually didn't feel it as much as all that. 404 00:27:28.380 --> 00:27:38.460 I just thought this is just part of his performance when he starts, boom, it's there, and it's going to break me down the track, but it's not great here yet, but I, so I didn't actually have a problem with it at all. 405 00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:45.299 I always find myself surprised by how much I enjoy his performance whenever I go back to one of his episodes. 406 00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:48.960 I can't remember, oh yeah, you know, this is why he's so popular. 407 00:27:49.019 --> 00:27:50.759 This is why he was so well liked. 408 00:27:51.059 --> 00:27:56.519 But I always go into it expecting to be annoyed by that. 409 00:27:56.940 --> 00:28:03.000 But I think the mask does slip slightly when he's talking when they face a bow and who's the cat with him? 410 00:28:03.059 --> 00:28:06.480 Novice Haim is talking about this learning wanderer. 411 00:28:06.539 --> 00:28:10.200 You do see at least the look on his face. 412 00:28:10.259 --> 00:28:14.339 So you do, I think that mask is slipping there, but he doesn't let it slip totally. 413 00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:23.579 It's just like, I think there are later episodes at times when you do see the mask slip and where the performance is much realer and I do like that. 414 00:28:23.640 --> 00:28:30.839 And I like the idea that the doctor is a performance, you know, particularly in this era with a time war and all of that sort of thing. 415 00:28:30.900 --> 00:28:33.000 It's, you know, I think it's interesting. 416 00:28:33.059 --> 00:28:35.339 It gives him a bit of interiority. 417 00:28:40.019 --> 00:28:50.400 Talking of his performance, he also has to perform as another character during this episode, which is, of course, the Lady Cassandra, which I'd love to talk about, right? 418 00:28:50.460 --> 00:28:51.480 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 419 00:28:51.539 --> 00:28:58.500 And when I 1st watched this, I really detested his performance as the Lady Cassandra. 420 00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:01.319 In fact, I detested Billy's performances, Lady Cassandra. 421 00:29:01.380 --> 00:29:05.220 I really, really hated that entire aspect of the entire show. 422 00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:12.720 You know, when Billy was playing the Lady Cassandra, she was wearing a Wonderbra... 423 00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:24.240 She did. could look nowhere else during those scenes when she's on screen and she unzips her top and she's got, you know, just fabulous breasts and it was all I could look at. 424 00:29:24.299 --> 00:29:27.000 And then she's like, let's do the bouncing... 425 00:29:27.059 --> 00:29:30.180 Well, that bouncy parcel line is from queer as folk. 426 00:29:32.579 --> 00:29:39.839 So she says it's like being inside a bouncy castle and she sort of jiggles her bum and her breast up and down. 427 00:29:39.900 --> 00:29:42.119 And I think she looks fabulous. 428 00:29:42.180 --> 00:29:49.500 I think there's that sort of problematic trope of women who are kind of sexually aggressive are obviously evil. 429 00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:52.680 But it's, I think she's having fun. 430 00:29:52.740 --> 00:29:59.940 I'm expecting Todd, you to go on and say, however, watching it this time, I thought it was really great. 431 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:07.259 However, however, listeners, watching it this time, I actually thought Billy's performance was really great. 432 00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:09.299 It really is fun. 433 00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:10.500 She needs it. 434 00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:11.940 And when she kisses the doctor. 435 00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:16.859 I was just bursting out laughing, like, you know, and his and his reaction to that, like I've still got it all. 436 00:30:16.920 --> 00:30:18.000 No, but he's squeaky. 437 00:30:18.059 --> 00:30:19.740 He goes squeaky, squeaky voice. 438 00:30:20.519 --> 00:30:34.019 Yeah, no, I really enjoyed her possession performance this time, which really sold it and improved this episode. so much for me, you know, and and Chip's the other one who actually, like when he becomes the Lady Cassandra. 439 00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:36.359 I also think his performance is really affecting as well. 440 00:30:36.420 --> 00:30:42.779 I just don't like, I still don't like the doctor getting possessed this early on in his reign. 441 00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:44.160 I still... 442 00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:45.900 It's the panto transformation scene. 443 00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:48.240 It just... 444 00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:56.279 But also too, like the fact that she has to get into the body using that huge device and then she can just zap herself, you know, and they're climbing up a big ladder. 445 00:30:56.339 --> 00:31:01.680 Like, not that, when it zaps into you, you don't suddenly let go of something, you know, for a split second. 446 00:31:01.740 --> 00:31:03.180 You know, I just don't buy that. 447 00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:13.980 Well, remember when Crozier invented technology not quite as sophisticated as the time loads all kind of lost their bundle and killed off Perry. 448 00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:16.380 You know, like, I know, that's right. 449 00:31:16.440 --> 00:31:28.019 But it was, you know, the most impressive piece of technology even imaginable and it turns out that Lady Cassandra has it in the basement of a hospital. don't tell me it's actually called the same thing. 450 00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:39.180 No, no, but it's called a psychograph, but, you know, the ability to detach someone's psyche from their body and allow it to turn into something that travels from person to person. 451 00:31:39.240 --> 00:31:47.519 You know, I had thought too that it was too soon to see David Tennant acting odd before we knew what he was really like as a doctor. 452 00:31:47.579 --> 00:31:59.279 There's the famous thing in Star Trek, The Next Generation, where the 2nd episode, The Naked Now has them all getting drunk and behaving oddly, and it's kind of like, I don't even know who these people were. 453 00:31:59.339 --> 00:32:02.519 They were incredibly wooden in the 1st episode. 454 00:32:02.579 --> 00:32:05.519 I've got no sense of who any of these people are. 455 00:32:05.579 --> 00:32:09.839 You know, why are we showing them behaving oddly until I know what they're like? 456 00:32:09.900 --> 00:32:20.339 But he's actually only Cassandra for a little while, and I think they're doing it to make it very clear how different tenant is going to be from Eccleston. 457 00:32:21.240 --> 00:32:22.259 It was written for Eccles. 458 00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:26.519 Eccleston would have torn his own head off rather than do that. 459 00:32:26.579 --> 00:32:29.160 I mean, this would be written for Eccleson at all. 460 00:32:29.220 --> 00:32:34.740 I think Eccles could have done that very, very well and it was part of his loosening up and one of the reasons he wanted to play the part. 461 00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:37.380 He said it's for children, but it was also expanding the range. 462 00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:39.299 Maybe, yeah, maybe you're right. 463 00:32:39.359 --> 00:32:40.859 But it does... 464 00:32:40.920 --> 00:32:44.819 I do like when he taunts wrote about loving or... 465 00:32:44.819 --> 00:32:46.440 Yeah, finding the doctor attractive. attractive. 466 00:32:46.619 --> 00:32:47.220 I do like that. 467 00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:48.180 Like, I mean, I will pay it. 468 00:32:48.240 --> 00:32:49.559 Like, it was better than I thought. 469 00:32:49.619 --> 00:32:56.460 But I don't think his acting's great in some of those. that's his weakest part of the acting for me in this episode. 470 00:32:56.460 --> 00:33:01.200 I think that what that does, though. 471 00:33:01.259 --> 00:33:14.279 That whole sequence is actually really, really good because it looks like a silly science fiction conceit where someone can just go from body to body and hilarity ensues. 472 00:33:14.339 --> 00:33:21.779 But when there's nowhere left for Cassandra to go, she ends up going into the body of one of the plague people. 473 00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:26.519 Sorry, I'm laughing, listeners, because I'm just thinking of that woman's performance. 474 00:33:26.579 --> 00:33:28.200 Well, God. 475 00:33:28.259 --> 00:33:30.180 The thing is, yeah, it's great, isn't it? 476 00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:37.019 Because she's a shambling plague zombie and then she's got a terribly posh voice and all of that, which is really quite fun. 477 00:33:37.079 --> 00:33:39.900 But it's empathy. 478 00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:42.539 You know, she inhabits that person's body. 479 00:33:42.599 --> 00:33:51.420 She's spent all of her life obsessed with looking beautiful and has gone to great lengths in order to achieve that. 480 00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:55.559 And she's in this horrific, degraded body. 481 00:33:55.619 --> 00:34:10.679 And when she comes back, when she's back in Rose's body, the 1st thing she says is that those people have never been touched. you know she actually learns empathy by inhabiting the body of another person. 482 00:34:10.739 --> 00:34:15.420 And so it gets to work as a metaphor for that, which I just think is so beautiful. 483 00:34:15.480 --> 00:34:17.099 And that's when the change happens. 484 00:34:17.159 --> 00:34:19.019 Yes, I agree with you. 485 00:34:19.079 --> 00:34:21.539 The end of the device to get her to that. 486 00:34:21.659 --> 00:34:23.940 You know, that point is great. 487 00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:28.139 And even the fact that she's investigating the whole and suspicious of these cat people anyway. 488 00:34:28.139 --> 00:34:30.239 Yeah, yeah. shows some sort of change. 489 00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:34.079 Like, and and I think that's, you know, I'm actually sad at the end. 490 00:34:34.139 --> 00:34:35.039 Yeah. 491 00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:45.420 I'm actually sad to see Chip and her reaction as an earlier self that she actually has got warmth and caring there when we just expect to have this bitchy trampoline. 492 00:34:45.480 --> 00:34:46.380 She wasn't always that. 493 00:34:46.440 --> 00:34:50.159 And that did affect me like actually, almost blumping. 494 00:34:50.219 --> 00:35:01.380 I think that's beautiful because she's also surrounded by, like, she's expressing concern for someone who is utterly unimportant in that scene when Chip comes back inhabited by her. 495 00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:16.139 He's no one and he falls to the ground. everyone else ignores her pleas for help, like no one else cares about him, and she gets to comfort herself as she dies. 496 00:35:16.199 --> 00:35:18.480 And it's that thing about touch as well. 497 00:35:18.539 --> 00:35:25.800 The cure to the disease is transmitted by touch, but also just concern and compassion are transmitted that way as well. 498 00:35:25.860 --> 00:35:29.639 And so she gets to hold herself as she dies. 499 00:35:29.699 --> 00:35:34.980 Um, and it is actually really good, I think. 500 00:35:35.099 --> 00:35:39.179 And I don't think we forgive Cassandra, particularly, you know, should we? 501 00:35:39.179 --> 00:35:42.960 No, typical, he, it was touched on at Boomtown last year. 502 00:35:43.019 --> 00:35:45.780 I mean, I think that's why I wasn't enjoying this so much. 503 00:35:45.780 --> 00:35:47.340 There wasn't any gravitas. 504 00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:51.239 I know it's a panto and it's an opening thing, but Boomtown just had so much. 505 00:35:51.360 --> 00:36:01.199 There was, I've run around in a chase comedy as well, Keystone cops comedy, but with gravitous and human truth, and some really salient, perfect one-on-ones. 506 00:36:01.260 --> 00:36:04.440 And I miss that from the Eccleston doctor. 507 00:36:04.500 --> 00:36:06.780 I miss the adultiness. 508 00:36:06.840 --> 00:36:13.559 This is all smarty pants kids dressing up and being a bit silly and fun. 509 00:36:13.619 --> 00:36:14.039 Yeah. 510 00:36:14.099 --> 00:36:19.980 Yeah, and like, I think there's a place for that, but I think that it's going to become the new normal. 511 00:36:20.159 --> 00:36:21.539 Yeah. 512 00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:32.880 You were saying earlier, Richard, like, you don't really care very much for many of these people. 513 00:36:32.940 --> 00:36:34.380 And I think that's quite true. 514 00:36:34.440 --> 00:36:39.780 Like, like, even up in the ward with, um, The Blue Man, who's not Blue Man. 515 00:36:39.780 --> 00:36:44.340 Duke of Manhattan and his Osada, which I think is just hilarious. 516 00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:46.139 So she's Frau Clovis. 517 00:36:46.199 --> 00:36:50.940 She's the 1st of many women who look like this, who will appear in Doctor Who. 518 00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:55.079 Yeah, Mr. Del Fox and Miss Foster and all of that. 519 00:36:55.139 --> 00:36:56.760 That's a look that we're going to. 520 00:36:56.820 --> 00:36:58.800 That's another avatar of Russell, isn't it? 521 00:36:58.860 --> 00:37:00.059 So, to. 522 00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:00.719 That's it. 523 00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:02.940 Look convincing in a lady suit. 524 00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:07.440 I think it's, you know, when we were talking about the moral calculus. 525 00:37:07.500 --> 00:37:12.239 The people who are being treated in the hospital are all incredibly rich. 526 00:37:12.300 --> 00:37:19.920 Some of them don't seem to have anything sort of particularly wrong with them, although the Duke of Manhattan was turning into a statue hilariously. 527 00:37:19.980 --> 00:37:30.300 So I think that needs to factor into the moral calculus, that it's people being oppressed and imiserated in order to make the rich better off. 528 00:37:30.360 --> 00:37:36.239 And so it does add a sort of a class thing to that whole kind of moral allegory. 529 00:37:36.780 --> 00:37:38.579 It is very funny. 530 00:37:38.639 --> 00:37:39.179 I think they are. 531 00:37:39.300 --> 00:37:41.460 Oh, those 1st sequences are very funny. 532 00:37:41.519 --> 00:37:46.199 Yeah, you know, and lots of blue people and white people and red people. 533 00:37:46.260 --> 00:37:54.539 But also when they, you know, when they go through there and they look out the window, like all that special effects of what's going on in new earth flying outside. 534 00:37:54.599 --> 00:37:58.139 Like, I've got the Blu-ray, and I never really had noticed it before. 535 00:37:58.199 --> 00:37:58.920 It looks winning. 536 00:37:58.980 --> 00:37:59.880 It looks really great. 537 00:37:59.940 --> 00:38:01.739 Big set with a high ceiling and everything. 538 00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:03.599 It does look it does look very good. 539 00:38:03.659 --> 00:38:10.019 But, you know, if she was actually touched, like at the end, because she's such a cow, like with her thing, I wouldn't have cried. 540 00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:11.820 Like if she'd bit in the dust. 541 00:38:11.880 --> 00:38:12.719 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 542 00:38:12.780 --> 00:38:16.380 Like, I mean, she closes the door like the water as quickly as she can. 543 00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:24.179 So, um, Rose Cassandra has to jump and go down the, the lift well with um, David Tennant. 544 00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:26.940 I mean, a lot of rope burned there between the legs probably. 545 00:38:28.260 --> 00:38:34.320 Did you note that the working titles for this story were Body Swap and the Sunshine Camp? 546 00:38:34.380 --> 00:38:36.539 Why has the sunshine came? 547 00:38:36.599 --> 00:38:39.599 That's from its macraterra phase. 548 00:38:39.659 --> 00:38:42.119 I was thinking that when I was reading that. 549 00:38:42.179 --> 00:38:44.460 I was like, is that looking forward to gridlock? 550 00:38:44.519 --> 00:38:45.960 Well, maybe. 551 00:38:46.019 --> 00:38:52.019 I mean, it is possible that he had more ideas that he wanted and spun the others off into a sequel. isn't it? 552 00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:57.840 Well, I mean, the face of Beau was originally supposed to impart his message and die at the end of this episode. 553 00:38:57.960 --> 00:38:59.219 Oh, was he? 554 00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:05.099 And so he then decided that he would just say, well, we'll meet for the 3rd time for the last time. out during production that they were getting a 3rd series. 555 00:39:05.159 --> 00:39:06.300 Oh, wow. 556 00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:07.079 Of this episode. 557 00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:13.139 So they he went, oh, I'll crib that and use it in a later story. 558 00:39:13.260 --> 00:39:16.980 That's the most poignant moment for me, is the big rubber rest ahead. 559 00:39:18.119 --> 00:39:21.239 Billy Piper's boyfriend broke the prop. 560 00:39:21.300 --> 00:39:23.340 Yes, he is, like playing with all the knobs. 561 00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:28.860 Like you, Nathan, had you been given much of a chance on a set? 562 00:39:28.860 --> 00:39:29.579 Yes. 563 00:39:29.639 --> 00:39:32.400 It's not John Barriman yet. 564 00:39:33.179 --> 00:39:35.579 I love the face of Bo. 565 00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:40.139 And I think it was a great way of getting the doctor in, and it is a bit of a cheat as well. 566 00:39:40.199 --> 00:39:51.119 Like, um, and I love the doctor's reaction to its disappearance, the textbook enigmatic line, I think, is beautifully hilariously well delivered. 567 00:39:51.239 --> 00:39:52.800 He can do comedy. 568 00:39:52.860 --> 00:39:53.699 It's a very funny line. 569 00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:54.960 He can do comedy. 570 00:39:55.019 --> 00:40:00.239 But it's also very clever, the whole thing because it just, through the dialogue, it's just reinforcing that he is alone. 571 00:40:00.300 --> 00:40:07.860 The time laws are gone, the war has happened and it's just reinforcing things in the audience's mind. like we've settled already. 572 00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:10.079 Jackie, Mickey, the psychic paper. 573 00:40:10.139 --> 00:40:11.219 Here's the face about. 574 00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:12.480 Here's the doctor, here's the rose. 575 00:40:12.539 --> 00:40:16.440 It's just reestablishing everything and just solidifying this is where we are and this is where we're going from. 576 00:40:16.500 --> 00:40:17.760 Yeah, and what the doctor does. 577 00:40:17.820 --> 00:40:19.739 You know, I'm the doctor and I cured them. 578 00:40:19.800 --> 00:40:21.300 That's exactly what he does. 579 00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:29.639 Like he comes in, overthrows, a corrupt and oppressive system, and, you know, frees prisoners and cures their disease. 580 00:40:29.699 --> 00:40:31.320 He's Jesus, really, isn't he? 581 00:40:31.380 --> 00:40:33.599 Jesus. 582 00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:35.039 Well, yes, he kind of does. 583 00:40:56.760 --> 00:41:01.860 Well, dear listener, it's time to leave New Earth and head back to the crummy old version. 584 00:41:01.920 --> 00:41:09.780 Join us next week in 19th century Scotland to learn more than we ever wanted to know about the royal family in tooth and claw. 585 00:41:09.840 --> 00:41:18.300 In the meantime, you can find us at flights or entirety.com, flights through entirety on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at FTE podcast on Twitter. 586 00:41:18.360 --> 00:41:39.539 You can also find us at our series 11 flashcast Jody Interterterra, which is at Jody Interterra.com, Jody Interterra on Apple Podcasts and at Jody Interterra on Twitter, and we're also available at our James Bond Commentary podcast, Bondfinger at bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and Apple Podcast and at Bondfingercast on Twitter. 587 00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:45.420 Until next time, may you find someone who looks at you, the way that Cassandra looks at herself. 588 00:41:45.480 --> 00:41:47.940 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 589 00:41:48.059 --> 00:41:48.780 Good night. 590 00:41:48.840 --> 00:41:49.619 See you soon. 591 00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:52.800 How does a vertical trampoline actually work? 592 00:41:56.940 --> 00:42:02.940 That was Flight for Entirety, starring Todd Bilby, Nathan Bottomley, James Selwood and Richard Stone. 593 00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:06.780 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings Performance by Jane Orberg. 594 00:42:06.840 --> 00:42:13.619 This episode, already completely abominable, was recorded on the 5th of January 2019 and released on the 17th of March. 595 00:42:15.059 --> 00:42:27.840 This week, we're happy to announce our new FTE dental support group, providing care, compassion, and contemporary prosthodontics to the dentally distressed, including Rose Tyler, the Hoyks, and long-term patron Queen Zanxia. 596 00:42:27.900 --> 00:42:28.800 Call us today. 597 00:42:29.340 --> 00:42:45.119 This will never win any, you know, season polls or anything like that, but it's just gone, it, you know, it's gone up so much in my opinion, you know, once I was giving it, like, I don't know, if I go for marks, like, you know, less than 6 out of 10, but now I think it's a solid 7 and I did enjoy it. 598 00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:45.480 Yeah. 599 00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:48.960 Oh, I love Doctor Who fans in their reading. 600 00:42:49.019 --> 00:42:50.400 I always do it James. 601 00:42:50.460 --> 00:42:50.940 Get used to it. 602 00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:56.699 I just generally like or dislike things. 603 00:42:57.420 --> 00:43:00.119 Well, it gets improved. improved dramatically for me. 604 00:43:00.179 --> 00:43:02.099 I give it a blue octagon. 605 00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:03.300 Oh, thank you. 606 00:43:03.360 --> 00:43:03.900 Did you? 607 00:43:03.900 --> 00:43:04.739 Oh, yes. 608 00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:07.800 Apple, grass, slash. 609 00:43:08.340 --> 00:43:10.500 Alpha 17 then. 610 00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:13.019 Were you entertained, Tom? 611 00:43:13.139 --> 00:43:14.579 What by this? 612 00:43:14.639 --> 00:43:32.340 I generally was surprised how much I got into this and enjoyed the majority of it. bar a few little things because I was expecting that I'd be sitting there going, oh, not this, but I was actually there going, oh, okay, I like that now. 12 years later. 613 00:43:32.460 --> 00:43:35.760 Well, how many years later, a century later? 614 00:43:35.820 --> 00:43:37.139 Nearly 13 years later. 615 00:43:37.199 --> 00:43:37.800 Oh my god. 616 00:43:38.219 --> 00:43:40.199 I think, what do you think? 617 00:43:40.260 --> 00:43:42.780 We've been going for 46 minutes. 618 00:43:42.840 --> 00:43:44.159 Is there? 619 00:43:44.159 --> 00:43:46.500 In fact, I've used all my notes up. 620 00:43:46.559 --> 00:43:49.500 I don't think I've got anything more to say. 621 00:43:50.280 --> 00:43:55.679 I need to go back and find Zoe, you want to make her in state of decay now? 622 00:43:55.739 --> 00:43:58.619 Oh, you know, I was going to say something maybe we'll tag it. 623 00:43:58.920 --> 00:44:14.940 If this was a Moffat episode, I wonder whether Chip going back and telling us she's beautiful before she hacks all her bits off in an effort to look beautiful, whether that would like avert her going down the sort of bitchy trampoline. path. 624 00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:34.619 I think, you know, it doesn't, there's something about that character where she's super, super self-conscious about not being beautiful and she's gone to these absurd lengths and it's, I think it's telling that the thing that she gets told that kind of makes it all right is that she's beautiful. 625 00:44:34.679 --> 00:44:36.539 I think that's nice, you know. 626 00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:38.699 That is nicely done. 627 00:44:38.760 --> 00:44:41.760 Although it's still, it's still as shallow and thin. 628 00:44:41.760 --> 00:44:44.219 It's not... slender in the plot itself. 629 00:44:44.280 --> 00:44:46.920 Really, we're rewarding narcissism by feeding it. 630 00:44:46.980 --> 00:44:49.739 I don't know that that's necessarily the cinosure, is it? 631 00:44:49.800 --> 00:44:50.699 She does die. 632 00:44:51.239 --> 00:44:54.780 Is that all you can do to cure narcissism? 633 00:44:54.780 --> 00:44:55.739 Possibly. 634 00:44:56.159 --> 00:44:58.500 An up note, isn't it? 635 00:44:59.460 --> 00:45:01.019 All right. 636 00:45:01.440 --> 00:45:03.420 Okay, let me do.