WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:13:42

1
00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:39.659
Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety.

2
00:00:39.719 --> 00:00:44.399
The only Doctor Who podcast found Carrying in a cupboard when the werewolf arrives.

3
00:00:44.520 --> 00:00:45.539
I'm Nathan.

4
00:00:45.600 --> 00:00:47.340
I'm James I'm Liz.

5
00:00:47.399 --> 00:00:57.659
It's Doctor Who's 2nd annual celebrity historical this week, so we're off to Scotland to find out what Queen Victoria thinks of Rose and our new, new doctor.

6
00:00:57.719 --> 00:01:01.079
It's the 2nd episode of series 2, Tooth and Claw.

7
00:01:08.159 --> 00:01:15.480
So, this is another celebrity historical just about a year after our last one.

8
00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:19.379
How do we think this one compares to The Unquiet Dead?

9
00:01:19.500 --> 00:01:23.459
Um, I've enjoyed a lot more than I expected to.

10
00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:36.299
I rewatched it again for the 2nd time in the past couple of months because I was I'm doing a new who rewatch and I hadn't seen it for, it must have been like almost 10 years and in my head, couldn't stand it.

11
00:01:36.359 --> 00:01:43.739
It's like the pinnacle of the smug 10th doctor and rose thing that I'm not a fan of.

12
00:01:43.799 --> 00:01:45.180
But I ended up, I watched it this time.

13
00:01:45.239 --> 00:01:47.700
I was like, okay, yeah, yeah, they're kind of smug.

14
00:01:47.760 --> 00:01:54.780
Their roses like, I can't stand the treating Victoria is like an amusement park, but actually I really enjoy this.

15
00:01:54.840 --> 00:01:55.920
I really, really like it.

16
00:01:56.040 --> 00:01:58.140
It's a great story, great characters.

17
00:01:58.200 --> 00:02:01.079
It's really exciting and it's in Scotland.

18
00:02:01.079 --> 00:02:06.959
And obviously, it's an incredible depiction of my beautiful country.

19
00:02:07.019 --> 00:02:17.460
I absolutely love that they got the ninja monks in there and our werewolves, which if there's one thing Doctor Who does, it's to pick Scotland beautifully.

20
00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:21.000
So this is Wales standing for Scotland, isn't it?

21
00:02:21.060 --> 00:02:23.039
But it is true that there aren't ninja monks.

22
00:02:23.159 --> 00:02:23.879
Am I right?

23
00:02:23.939 --> 00:02:25.080
Oh yeah, yeah.

24
00:02:25.139 --> 00:02:35.219
Go down the shops, go go pop along to your local loch with its miniature monster in it. out when we go hunting haggis, they're they're in labour, yeah.

25
00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:55.080
Brilliant I actually did want to talk about the monks because, you know, they do kind of play a role in the plot, but their big role is this sort of pre-credit sequence, which seems very much to have been designed to kind of beef up the next time trailer last week.

26
00:02:55.139 --> 00:03:00.060
Yeah, I think you could easily argue that that was, it's superfluous.

27
00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:08.699
It doesn't fit the plot, but I think it's one of those things that, gosh, it's just so cool that I don't care in all honest state.

28
00:03:08.819 --> 00:03:18.960
If it was a story that I hated and I wanted to find things to nitpick at it, then I could totally understand if you didn't like the story having a go at it, but because I really enjoy it.

29
00:03:19.020 --> 00:03:27.300
I'm like, yes, let us have just some random jumping through air and slow-mo fighting against people stuff.

30
00:03:27.419 --> 00:03:27.719
That fine.

31
00:03:27.780 --> 00:03:28.139
That's cool.

32
00:03:28.199 --> 00:03:32.039
I think too, that it is the sort of thing that you want Doctor Who to do.

33
00:03:32.099 --> 00:03:50.460
You know, like if you're asking for sort of some kind of credible science fiction explanation for where they got the outfits from and, you know, where they've been training and are they Catholic or Protestant or, you know, like if you're trying, you know, if you're asking yourself those questions, you're really approaching the whole sort of thing the wrong way.

34
00:03:50.520 --> 00:03:53.639
I think I actually remember watching this.

35
00:03:53.699 --> 00:03:55.379
I was like, are they Catholic?

36
00:03:55.439 --> 00:04:03.780
It was bothering me because I was like, do we do we call prod to do because there are Protestant monasteries.

37
00:04:03.900 --> 00:04:06.960
Do we call the people there in charge, father?

38
00:04:07.020 --> 00:04:08.520
Is that something we do?

39
00:04:08.580 --> 00:04:10.080
And I didn't know.

40
00:04:10.139 --> 00:04:11.520
It's not really bothering me though.

41
00:04:11.580 --> 00:04:15.840
They do some Latin. which is sort of worth mentioning later on.

42
00:04:15.900 --> 00:04:22.680
They say the wolf is god and the wolf is brave over and over again when they sort of finally reveal who they are.

43
00:04:23.220 --> 00:04:28.560
So I'm going for Catholic, but I'd be prepared to be proved wrong.

44
00:04:28.980 --> 00:04:34.379
I would assume Catholic just because it's the kind of, what's the right word?

45
00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:36.180
I don't want to say trope.

46
00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:37.199
The stereotype.

47
00:04:37.259 --> 00:04:42.480
If you're dealing with spooky stuff, then they tend to be Catholic because they're like more qualified in it.

48
00:04:42.540 --> 00:04:49.920
Like if you, if you want an exorcism done, don't call a Protestant, call a Catholic priest, that's, that's who's going to actually get rid of the ghost day for you.

49
00:04:49.980 --> 00:04:51.540
They actually believe in God.

50
00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:56.879
Well, no, no, I think they're just, you know, the problems are a bit more bloodless a little bit more, you know, yeah.

51
00:04:57.120 --> 00:05:11.459
Um, I also think that the monks are actually playing a role in distinguishing this historical from the previous historicals, because I think, you know, Russell is quoted as saying, they needed a good kick up the arse.

52
00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:13.079
I think that was actually Julie Gardner.

53
00:05:13.139 --> 00:05:13.740
Right.

54
00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:21.180
Yeah, and so what you had, I think, with the Unquiet Dead, was like a very kind of, you know, BBC costume drama.

55
00:05:21.240 --> 00:05:30.180
There's a little bit of stuff outside, but we're basically in the studio for a lot of it and everyone's wearing lovely frocks and speaking very formally.

56
00:05:30.300 --> 00:05:37.980
And then, so we start this historical in a really vastly different way and directed a very different way as well.

57
00:05:38.040 --> 00:05:40.680
It's Eros Lynn, I think.

58
00:05:40.860 --> 00:05:45.660
And his shooting, you know, everything's speeded up.

59
00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:48.839
You've got sort of matrix bullet time and all of that sort of stuff happening.

60
00:05:48.959 --> 00:06:02.279
And I think the rest of the episode delivers on that promise in that there's heaps of sort of handheld and and, you know, the interiors are shot on location and stuff. locations.

61
00:06:02.339 --> 00:06:03.540
Really?

62
00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:05.819
That's amazing.

63
00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:12.600
Yeah, they use 7 different, like, stately homes, basically.

64
00:06:12.660 --> 00:06:14.819
I think the is the corridor a set?

65
00:06:14.879 --> 00:06:18.360
There's some, some, Yeah, a lot of the corridors were sets.

66
00:06:18.420 --> 00:06:20.339
I don't know about the staircase.

67
00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:22.500
No, well, the staircase is massive.

68
00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:23.459
It's definitely location.

69
00:06:23.579 --> 00:06:28.139
But a lot of the running up and down corridors that those are sets.

70
00:06:28.199 --> 00:06:37.259
Yeah, so instead of people sort of delivering kind of, you know, sort of portentous lines in sort of proper BBC RP English at each other.

71
00:06:37.319 --> 00:06:49.920
You have people running up and down corridors and running up and downstairs and not just sort of the small length of corridor that you can fit into the studio, but until... studio, one at Mime Grove. that's right.

72
00:06:50.040 --> 00:07:02.579
It does very much feel like this is still, they're kind of in that early knew who mood of, we must distinguish ourselves from classic coup and showing that we have a little bit more money and can do it a little bit more epic.

73
00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:06.300
So when we have a chase scene here, like I said, it's huge.

74
00:07:06.360 --> 00:07:07.439
There's so much space.

75
00:07:07.500 --> 00:07:09.600
There's, it's so fast paced.

76
00:07:09.660 --> 00:07:12.720
You feel like they're really racing away from this terrifying thing.

77
00:07:12.779 --> 00:07:25.860
And the direction during that, I absolutely love because you barely see the wolf, but you've got it from its perspective, you've got the sound and you feel like it's chasing you, even though they're desperately trying to save money by not actually showing it up.

78
00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:35.519
It's a good example of how budgetary restrictions can actually improve something because that wolf costs so much money.

79
00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:50.220
And they actually had to bring a guest, CG artist onto the show, who would specialise in animals because of the hair and the close-up shots.

80
00:07:51.120 --> 00:08:02.639
And so the cost of that was so colossal, that they had to, they had to do the POV shots and lots of fast cuts and it actually improves it, that you, they didn't have the money.

81
00:08:02.699 --> 00:08:11.579
Yeah, no, I think it works so much better, especially because CGI, no matter how good it is, is always going to age really badly, really quickly.

82
00:08:11.639 --> 00:08:14.220
But I still think the wolf looks reasonably good here.

83
00:08:14.279 --> 00:08:18.060
I think it looks much better than the one in Harry Potter and the prisoner of Azkaban.

84
00:08:18.060 --> 00:08:21.720
And that had quite a lot more money for it.

85
00:08:21.779 --> 00:08:30.899
It might have been a bit earlier, but still, you know, where you're like, our Doctor Who Werewolf is better than one of the biggest movies of like 2 or 3 years earlier.

86
00:08:30.959 --> 00:08:32.159
I think I might have got that wrong.

87
00:08:32.220 --> 00:08:34.620
Um, that's still pretty impressive.

88
00:08:34.679 --> 00:08:35.399
It still looks good.

89
00:08:35.460 --> 00:08:39.419
It doesn't look like it's a real wolf, but it's pretty nifty.

90
00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:42.720
I mean, you know, like it's never going to.

91
00:08:42.779 --> 00:08:44.279
We knew at the time it was CG.

92
00:08:44.340 --> 00:08:45.419
Like, no, it was kind of fooled.

93
00:08:45.480 --> 00:08:49.980
I mean, the and you didn't think it was a man in a suit at any point, I don't think.

94
00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:51.179
It wasn't real werewolf.

95
00:08:51.240 --> 00:08:53.159
And it wasn't a werewolf.

96
00:08:53.220 --> 00:08:54.779
They're so difficult to cast, aren't they?

97
00:08:54.899 --> 00:08:55.559
But...

98
00:08:55.559 --> 00:08:57.720
Keep biting.

99
00:08:57.960 --> 00:09:08.220
I think too, it's trying to improve on the sort of the CG Slothine, like last year, which I actually, I actually don't mind.

100
00:09:08.279 --> 00:09:19.620
I have a very, like, a soft spot for the CG, so then in World War 3 just because they were in that very 1st trailer and it was kind of like, 0 my god, you know, we can do CG monsters now on Doctor Who.

101
00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:21.059
It was so exciting.

102
00:09:21.120 --> 00:09:23.519
But this with the hair and the teeth.

103
00:09:23.580 --> 00:09:27.840
And that wonderful sort of alien 3 close-up as well that it gets to do.

104
00:09:27.960 --> 00:09:30.299
Yeah, I think it's impressive.

105
00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:35.100
We'll put a link if we can find it in the show notes to that.

106
00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:43.559
I don't know if you've heard this, Liz, but there's an interview where David Tennant talks about the guy who's in the MoCap suit.

107
00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:45.240
No, no, I haven't.

108
00:09:45.299 --> 00:09:48.179
It's just, it's completely improper.

109
00:09:48.240 --> 00:10:01.559
But David Tennant says that he was distractingly distractingly well proportioned, perhaps intimidatingly well proportioned, I think, is how Tennant put it.

110
00:10:01.620 --> 00:10:08.820
And so people had typically looking at the ping-pong ball. you know, the on the on the ping-pong.

111
00:10:09.659 --> 00:10:18.600
The ping-pong ball on the stick on top of the on top of the helmet that was that was supposed to give them the eye line was nowhere near as compelling as the guy himself.

112
00:10:20.279 --> 00:10:22.320
So, yeah.

113
00:10:22.379 --> 00:10:24.179
So it's footage of that.

114
00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:30.240
There is, I think there is actually footage of the guy in the motion capture thing, some special feature somewhere.

115
00:10:30.779 --> 00:10:33.179
Well, it's not confidential.

116
00:10:33.179 --> 00:10:34.200
Oh yeah.

117
00:10:34.259 --> 00:10:34.559
Okay.

118
00:10:34.620 --> 00:10:36.600
You watch confidential in preparation for this.

119
00:10:36.659 --> 00:10:37.259
Yes.

120
00:10:37.259 --> 00:10:38.700
I've got to up your pay.

121
00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:41.639
He's not paying me.

122
00:10:49.440 --> 00:10:54.539
There's a theme, I think, that runs through this entire series.

123
00:10:54.600 --> 00:11:00.480
Um, And it really starts in this episode.

124
00:11:00.539 --> 00:11:07.320
Um, the whole arrogance and um, of hubris.

125
00:11:07.379 --> 00:11:10.019
Yeah, of the Doctrine Rose.

126
00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:12.539
How do we feel about the handling of that?

127
00:11:12.600 --> 00:11:15.360
I have a lot of negative feelings about it?

128
00:11:15.419 --> 00:11:24.240
I had a lot more negative feelings before I rewatched the season late last year and it's not as bad as what I remember.

129
00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:32.279
At the time, I was about it, which is a very accurate and meaningful Scottish word that you just heard there.

130
00:11:32.519 --> 00:11:40.139
But I think it's, and I think it's at its worst here, but seeing, seeing the way it goes through.

131
00:11:40.259 --> 00:11:48.480
I'm just I feel less angry and frustrated at it and more just very embarrassed by it and I'm like, oh, no, no, stop, just stop.

132
00:11:48.539 --> 00:11:57.179
Which isn't the best feeling to feel about your Tardis crew and your heroes, but, you know, if the story around it's great, then I'm prepared to go with it.

133
00:11:57.240 --> 00:12:01.620
I think that my main problem with it is I never really feel like there's a proper payoff.

134
00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:03.539
I mean, yes, there's torture at the end.

135
00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:18.419
Yes, this ends up with them getting separated, but I never get the sense that they realise, oh, if we hadn't been quite so appallingly rude and laughing whilst people were dying around us when Victoria was there, maybe this wouldn't have happened, maybe maybe we should self-reflect a little bit.

136
00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:24.059
And um, I didn't, I don't get the feeling that ever happens, but she, you know, would be nice. don't need.

137
00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:33.179
I don't need a lot of self-reflection, just a little bit, just a little acknowledgement that, oh god, the walking away at the end of this adventure, and it's clearly deliberate.

138
00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:35.039
They're walking away, they're having a laugh about whorls.

139
00:12:35.100 --> 00:12:48.299
We cut back to the torchwood house, and we've got 2 widows here, one of them, brand new widow, grieving, and uh, and the contrast is like, we're meant to think they're behaving like, I don't know if I can say asses.

140
00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:50.100
Is that okay?

141
00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:54.299
They're making like utter acids and we're we're absolutely meant to condemn that behaviour.

142
00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:58.080
But where's my gosh darned payoff by the end of the season?

143
00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:01.679
Where they're like, oh, maybe, you know, learn something from it.

144
00:13:01.740 --> 00:13:26.460
You know, originally I had thought that the reason was that Billy's departure had meant that, like that there'd been some kind of long-term plan that Russell didn't get to do, but it turns out that I think it was during the shooting of this, that the scripts for the two-parter at the end, like Army of Ghosts and Doomsday, like actually arrived.

145
00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:30.480
So it's clear that this is working up to kind of a known end.

146
00:13:30.539 --> 00:13:32.879
And like it is a massive problem.

147
00:13:32.940 --> 00:13:41.220
Like, just seeing them suffer as payoff for this behaviour isn't enough if they don't learn a valuable lesson.

148
00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:46.919
And like even in series 3, the doctor hasn't learned a valuable lesson.

149
00:13:46.980 --> 00:13:50.639
He just sort of sulking and upset because not sulking, that's his girlfriend.

150
00:13:50.700 --> 00:13:56.340
Well, that's unfair, but he's upset at the loss of rose, but he hasn't learned anything as such.

151
00:13:56.399 --> 00:14:12.539
And I also think it's a bit complicated too, that even if he had learnt something in episode 13, that still doesn't mean that we don't have a whole bunch of episodes where he's just being super obnoxious and that kind of matters, I think.

152
00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:16.379
Yeah, because we were still left this adventure.

153
00:14:16.440 --> 00:14:20.700
If you imagine this is another sort of doctor era.

154
00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:22.620
It just, it wouldn't be like that.

155
00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:29.820
It wouldn't be, and it, oh, it would make it better if you didn't leave it thinking, oh my god, my TARDIS team.

156
00:14:29.879 --> 00:14:30.299
Why?

157
00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:31.019
Why, why?

158
00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:36.480
If you could leave with them with them cheering or with them being a little bit, you know, say something to Laura.

159
00:14:36.539 --> 00:14:45.179
The poor woman's just lost her husband, a little bit of compassion and empathy there instead of a final attempt to get Victoria to say she's not amused.

160
00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:49.320
It's, it's, I want to be on side with the Tardis team.

161
00:14:49.379 --> 00:14:50.100
Is that wrong?

162
00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:52.019
No, no, I think that's right.

163
00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:59.220
I think, I think, so you talked about the, you know, trying to get her to say we're not amused.

164
00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:07.740
And it is this sort of thing, this tendency that we have to just regard people from earlier historical periods is just sort of being stupid.

165
00:15:07.799 --> 00:15:15.360
And I also think it's kind of magnified slightly, you know, like I think Russell brings religion back into Doctor Who.

166
00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:17.460
Just an odd thing.

167
00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:20.759
Russell T is as far as I know is an atheist, yes?

168
00:15:20.820 --> 00:15:21.899
Yeah, I think so.

169
00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:24.779
And I think he writes about religion wonderfully.

170
00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:33.840
I think he does a great job in it, Joe. My experience, generally speaking, is I find atheist writers actually tend to write really thoughtfully about religion.

171
00:15:33.899 --> 00:15:35.340
I really appreciate it.

172
00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:44.279
Yeah, it was certainly like Eve Miles character last year wasn't patronised for being religious.

173
00:15:44.279 --> 00:15:47.279
And in fact, she gets to sort of slap Rose down a little bit.

174
00:15:47.340 --> 00:15:52.919
Not, you know, not very forcibly, but says you just think I'm an idiot, but I'm not.

175
00:15:52.980 --> 00:15:53.820
I know this world.

176
00:15:53.879 --> 00:16:03.299
Um, You know, there was no religion in Doctor Who in the 70s and 80s unless you were a cultist, you know, if you worship Demnos or Logar or something, you got to be religious.

177
00:16:03.419 --> 00:16:04.320
Yeah, that's right.

178
00:16:04.379 --> 00:16:07.740
But no actual proper religious people.

179
00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:28.320
And I think that making her religious in a way that the doctor and rose aren't, and that sort of reflexive modern sort of arrogance towards that sort of really heartfelt religion, which is obviously not universal because plenty of people are religious.

180
00:16:28.379 --> 00:16:40.620
Like, I think that that sort of reinforces for me that sort of arrogance, you know, the doctor and Rose know how the world works, really, you know, because they're from space and they're from the future and stuff.

181
00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:48.600
And so Queen Victoria is, you know, like a simple primitive to them. despite being the queen.

182
00:16:48.659 --> 00:16:49.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

183
00:16:49.740 --> 00:16:51.659
It's so disrespectful.

184
00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:54.000
Yeah, I completely agree.

185
00:16:54.059 --> 00:16:57.299
I'm not suggesting the bounds great because she's the queen.

186
00:16:57.360 --> 00:17:03.240
It's like, just treat her as though she's not there for your amusement, you know, as though she's a real person.

187
00:17:03.299 --> 00:17:04.440
That'd be good, you know?

188
00:17:04.500 --> 00:17:07.740
And you can tell that Victoria knows what's going on.

189
00:17:08.220 --> 00:17:14.339
Rose is so obvious and so sort of blunt and flat-footed in the way that she tries to do it.

190
00:17:14.460 --> 00:17:19.799
And you can sense, I think, Queen Victoria getting more and more irritated with it.

191
00:17:19.859 --> 00:17:24.960
Yeah, and um, it's, uh, yeah, it, oh, it just makes me cringe.

192
00:17:25.079 --> 00:17:28.259
It's just one of those words where I have to look away for the delic.

193
00:17:28.319 --> 00:17:29.940
Oh no, don't stop.

194
00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:33.599
Stop. when the doctor at the start is like, no, no, no, no, don't, don't do that.

195
00:17:33.660 --> 00:17:35.279
And yet he lets this happen.

196
00:17:35.339 --> 00:17:39.839
It's no, I'd have preferred the very dodgy Scottish accent.

197
00:17:39.900 --> 00:17:40.680
That would have been fine.

198
00:17:40.740 --> 00:17:41.519
No cringing there.

199
00:17:41.579 --> 00:17:41.940
That's cool.

200
00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:42.599
You want to do that?

201
00:17:42.660 --> 00:17:43.859
I don't mind.

202
00:17:43.920 --> 00:17:53.400
I have to say that David Tennant doing the Scottish accent, like doing his own accent is significantly better than his Cod Cockney.

203
00:17:53.460 --> 00:17:55.259
Yeah, Dick Van Dyke.

204
00:17:55.799 --> 00:18:05.640
It's this sort of thing where I'd kind of like David Tennant, but had sort of started to find his performance a bit more mannered or a bit too mannered as it sort of went on.

205
00:18:05.700 --> 00:18:12.539
And then suddenly seeing him in Broadchurch, just doing his normal voice and being sort of vastly, vastly sexier all of a sudden.

206
00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:17.279
And I think it's because he's not having to sort of...

207
00:18:17.339 --> 00:18:17.700
Yeah.

208
00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:20.039
Yeah, I know, I completely agree.

209
00:18:20.099 --> 00:18:22.980
I remember, this is actually, was the 1st thing that I saw David Tennant in.

210
00:18:23.099 --> 00:18:32.940
And then when it was outside in another performance, it was, oh, I think it was Blackpool I was watching with, yeah, because it, because it had, there was a nice jiff of him dancing in it or something.

211
00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:37.799
And I was like, whoa, whoa, this guy's actually really, really good.

212
00:18:37.859 --> 00:18:44.700
Um, and I went to see him when he was doing his hamlet and that was like, wow, that was amazing.

213
00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:46.440
It was fantastic, was it?

214
00:18:46.500 --> 00:18:47.220
So great.

215
00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:53.640
Just, I just, I love the direction and stuff of that as well, the way they got the spookiness across, which just, whoa.

216
00:18:53.700 --> 00:19:03.599
But it's, I, I often feel like he's, he's really done a sort of disservice in Doctor Who because it doesn't, it, I don't think it's one of his best performances.

217
00:19:03.660 --> 00:19:06.599
I think his best performance in Doctor Who is in human nature and family blood.

218
00:19:06.660 --> 00:19:09.900
Um, because he's not paying the doctor.

219
00:19:09.960 --> 00:19:11.220
Terrible.

220
00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:12.660
I feel terrible saying that.

221
00:19:13.140 --> 00:19:22.440
There's there's that moment in, is it silence in the library where, um, uh, river reveals that she knows his name.

222
00:19:22.500 --> 00:19:32.099
And then the mask drops and it becomes clear that all of this stuff, which seems like a mannered performance actually is a mannered performance and the character.

223
00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:39.180
Yeah, and if that if that had happened a little bit more often, I would have been on board with it, like if it was clear.r.

224
00:19:39.240 --> 00:19:40.980
That makes sense.

225
00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:48.359
Because the doctor is someone who we learned last year has undergone this sort of frightful, horrific loss.

226
00:19:48.359 --> 00:19:56.579
And I think Christopher Ecklson made it clear when he was being jolly and putting a mask on.

227
00:19:57.359 --> 00:20:06.720
But in this 1st David Tennant series, because he's so self-satisfied, you very rarely see that mask drop at all.

228
00:20:06.779 --> 00:20:10.140
Yeah, there are some really, really nice moments though.

229
00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:12.900
Now you've mentioned that I'm remembering a couple.

230
00:20:13.019 --> 00:20:27.299
There's really a nice one to fear her when he says, um, I was a father once and you're like, a little bit of heartbreak there because it's, it's just, as you said, it just drops away the whole mask thing and you just see this, this old grief in him and it's like, whoa.

231
00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:45.299
And um, I think there's some really good stuff in um, with Sarah Jane as well. where he feels, it's like he allows himself to be more vulnerable with her than he does around Rose, who he, it feels like for her, he has to put on a performance because kind, kind of because, because that's what she wants.

232
00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:51.900
She wants this, this fun and and, oh, no, no, I'm sorry, I've got half a thought here.

233
00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:56.099
So it's not actually sentences because I'm just, I'm speaking as I'm thinking it.

234
00:20:56.160 --> 00:21:01.920
But yeah, no, it's, um, Yeah, yeah, I think what you're saying is absolutely right.

235
00:21:01.980 --> 00:21:12.660
I mean, it's right from that 1st scene where they're together in the TARDIS and they're playing injury on the blockheads and, you know, the TARDIS lands and they fall over and they're just sort of laughing and things.

236
00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:17.940
It just sort of sets this whole scene that for them, this is going to be a game.

237
00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:22.259
This is going to be funny all the way through and they're here just for the laughs.

238
00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:25.019
And maybe he's overcompensating.

239
00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:28.680
Like, you know, they should have hung a lantern on that.

240
00:21:28.740 --> 00:21:29.640
Yeah, yeah.

241
00:21:29.700 --> 00:21:30.599
I think that's it.

242
00:21:30.660 --> 00:21:35.160
We can't just sort of head cannonet into sort of some kind of psychological realism.

243
00:21:35.220 --> 00:21:36.000
It just, yeah.

244
00:21:36.059 --> 00:21:37.200
Oh, I can.

245
00:21:37.259 --> 00:21:41.039
That's how I get, that's how I get through the dodgy Doctor Who.

246
00:21:41.460 --> 00:21:44.640
Hey, this is how I get through the twin dilemma.

247
00:21:44.700 --> 00:21:46.019
I can do it for that.

248
00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:47.099
I can do it here.

249
00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:50.579
But yeah, I appreciate that.

250
00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:53.099
I mean, this is a lot of people's favourite season.

251
00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:56.279
Um, which I completely legitimate.

252
00:21:56.339 --> 00:21:57.299
That's absolutely fine.

253
00:21:57.359 --> 00:22:04.920
And it does work for a lot of fans, which, you know, but then the Time Monster doesn't for some reason.

254
00:22:04.980 --> 00:22:20.700
So I, I, I, I can see how if you feel, You, if Rose maybe is your, if Rose is your, like, identifying figure, if she's the one you're really connected with, then this is kind of what you want, you're in this little club of 2, the doctor adores you, he wants to entertain you.

255
00:22:20.759 --> 00:22:25.259
I get that, but that's that's not what I'm used to for my companions.

256
00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:32.099
I think it works a lot better if you haven't watched Doctor Who for your like childhood beforehand.

257
00:22:32.220 --> 00:22:33.839
Yeah, yeah.

258
00:22:33.900 --> 00:22:44.400
I think, you know, there's sort of technical reasons like series one is clearly everyone sort of doing the Doctor Who story that they've had bottled up for like the last 16 years or whatever.

259
00:22:44.460 --> 00:22:50.819
You know, they've gone to the top shelf for their Doctor Who idea and they've been given the opportunity to do it.

260
00:22:50.880 --> 00:22:52.319
If we're going to kill it.

261
00:22:52.380 --> 00:22:55.019
We're going to make it our very best.

262
00:22:55.079 --> 00:23:02.460
Yeah, but I think this one has the sort of difficult 2nd album feel to it because now what the hell do we do?

263
00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:07.980
But it also has the advantage of knowing what worked and what didn't work last time as well.

264
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:13.799
I feel I'm being very harsh on it a little bit because I genuinely does enjoy it.

265
00:23:13.799 --> 00:23:18.299
And actually this season, I really enjoy it right through the Cyberman one, which I've found a bit dull.

266
00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:25.319
And, um, then God help me, I don't hate fear her and and uh, Satan Pitt's Impossible Planet.

267
00:23:25.380 --> 00:23:29.279
I think, I think, is one of the best, possibly the best story of Russell T. Davis era.

268
00:23:29.339 --> 00:23:32.039
Um, but I'm just, yeah, because I feel like I'm being really harsh.

269
00:23:32.099 --> 00:23:33.000
I'm being really mean.

270
00:23:33.059 --> 00:23:34.559
I still really like it.

271
00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:39.839
Just really not my favourite bit of the 55 plus year.

272
00:23:39.900 --> 00:23:41.940
Yeah.

273
00:23:41.940 --> 00:23:49.799
Sorry, I always feel very guilty when I'm quite negative of Birch Akshahoo because it's like, ah, the thing I love, and I'm criticising a part of my child.

274
00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:52.200
That's fine, isn't it?

275
00:23:52.259 --> 00:23:53.640
It's absolutely fine.

276
00:23:53.700 --> 00:23:56.099
Well, cause any psychological damage.

277
00:23:56.460 --> 00:23:58.079
That's it.

278
00:23:58.140 --> 00:23:59.579
We all record podcasts.

279
00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:00.900
Yeah, that's it.

280
00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:15.000
So did you know that this story was a really late edition to the season?

281
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:16.859
I think so.

282
00:24:16.920 --> 00:24:18.240
I did not.

283
00:24:18.299 --> 00:24:40.500
Yeah, so initially, initially, because they didn't want to get into a situation where if a script dropped out, they would be left having to desperately write a replacement story, uh, Russell actually commissioned a number of scripts on spec, uh, this was one of them.

284
00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:45.779
It was given to like a writer that never actually ended up writing for Doctor Who.

285
00:24:46.140 --> 00:24:48.720
I think Russell has never said who it was.

286
00:24:48.779 --> 00:24:49.980
No, no.

287
00:24:50.940 --> 00:24:54.660
And they said, Queen Victoria, monks, werewolf.

288
00:24:54.720 --> 00:25:10.920
And the writer dropped the werewolf and the monks and rewrote the story as something about Queen Victoria getting a bug in her eye and The rest has lost her time.

289
00:25:10.980 --> 00:25:19.200
But, um, and, and they, they, they did not like where that was heading, so they dismissed him or, or her.

290
00:25:19.259 --> 00:25:20.099
Who knows?

291
00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:29.700
Um, and so they actually end up in the situation that we're trying to avoid and Russell had to write the script. pretty much at the last minute.

292
00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:32.700
Seems he does quite well on the last minute thing.

293
00:25:32.759 --> 00:25:33.599
Yes.

294
00:25:33.660 --> 00:25:34.140
Yeah.

295
00:25:34.200 --> 00:25:40.619
Well, I think Boomtown was last minute after something dropped, and we really enjoyed that last year, and I think...

296
00:25:40.619 --> 00:25:41.880
Yeah, no, that was a great one.

297
00:25:41.940 --> 00:25:45.900
I think midnight, again, is some a quick replacement. last trip, yeah, yeah.

298
00:25:45.960 --> 00:25:48.359
This was actually supposed to...

299
00:25:48.420 --> 00:25:52.019
Well, this story initially was actually supposed to be episode six.

300
00:25:52.140 --> 00:25:53.339
Yeah.

301
00:25:53.339 --> 00:25:55.140
And they moved it up the running order.

302
00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:59.099
In fact, I had heard that the runaway bride.

303
00:25:59.160 --> 00:26:00.299
It was episode six.

304
00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:04.619
Yeah, and then he decided, well, that could be a Christmas special if we get special.

305
00:26:04.740 --> 00:26:15.960
Yeah, when the BBC commissioned the 2nd Christmas special, he went, well, this is a great idea. going to develop that into the Christmas special because it works so much better as a Christmas special.

306
00:26:16.019 --> 00:26:17.940
And you end up with Catherine Tate.

307
00:26:18.059 --> 00:26:18.779
Yeah.

308
00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:20.640
And then you get series 4.

309
00:26:20.819 --> 00:26:21.839
So it's all good.

310
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:31.680
But when they got the Christmas special, he replaced Runaway Bride with this script that he wrote as a replacement for the other one.

311
00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:36.359
And then it got moved on the running order because there were so many delays on the other episodes.

312
00:26:36.420 --> 00:26:41.640
I'd heard too that there was a toss-up whether this was going to be the 1st episode or the 2nd episode.

313
00:26:41.700 --> 00:26:43.859
New Earth had been so plagued with delays.

314
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:45.839
And it would have been possible.

315
00:26:45.900 --> 00:26:46.740
I think they worked it out.

316
00:26:46.799 --> 00:27:03.000
So, you know, the pre-credits thing at the beginning of New Earth, that that could have led to the credits and then opened with the beginning of tooth and claw, like there was every possibility that it could have been first.

317
00:27:03.059 --> 00:27:06.480
And I think once they had finished it, they were pretty happy with how it was going.

318
00:27:06.539 --> 00:27:08.339
And so that was a consideration.

319
00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:13.859
Wasn't New Earth practically only finished like the day before broadcast or something.

320
00:27:13.920 --> 00:27:15.180
Really?

321
00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:21.599
There are a number of stories in the new series where they were down to the wire.

322
00:27:21.660 --> 00:27:30.359
They were literally finishing off the special effects in the dub and finally it's as they were prepping it for broadcast.

323
00:27:30.420 --> 00:27:31.079
Wow.

324
00:27:31.140 --> 00:27:31.559
Yeah.

325
00:27:31.619 --> 00:27:33.299
It's like the trout era.

326
00:27:33.420 --> 00:27:35.339
Film for live.

327
00:27:39.059 --> 00:27:45.000
I think, you know, the result is probably that the story is fairly simple.

328
00:27:46.019 --> 00:27:54.480
You know, you think sometimes with the 45 minute episodes, they're sort of trying to cram, like a 4 parter in there.

329
00:27:54.539 --> 00:27:56.460
And I think that's always a mistake.

330
00:27:56.519 --> 00:27:58.380
Bass under siege.

331
00:27:58.440 --> 00:28:05.940
I read about time earlier today and they compared it to Horror Fang Rock. that essentially you have, yeah.

332
00:28:06.059 --> 00:28:07.740
It does very much feel like a modern.

333
00:28:07.799 --> 00:28:11.339
I know horrifying oxscreen Williams, but it's a Hinchcliffe hangover.

334
00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:19.680
It does feel like the modern Hingecliffe taking out everything that annoys me by Hingecliffe and keeping everything I love and then adding the doctor.

335
00:28:19.740 --> 00:28:20.880
Actually having women.

336
00:28:22.019 --> 00:28:26.220
How could you possibly think, no, that was what I was referring to.

337
00:28:26.279 --> 00:28:27.059
Good Lord.

338
00:28:27.119 --> 00:28:33.240
But yeah, but it's definitely got that kind of that Gothic atmosphere, which I really love.

339
00:28:33.299 --> 00:28:40.440
And it's relatively straightforward, but that it makes it, it feels like it completely fits in its time slot.

340
00:28:40.500 --> 00:28:45.599
But drawing sort of some themes from it is kind of.

341
00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:47.339
It's kind of a bit difficult.

342
00:28:47.400 --> 00:29:02.700
There is, there is stuff about religion and and the fear of, there's a lot of stuff from Victoria about knowing what's beyond and sort of her, both her fascination with it and her distrust of it.

343
00:29:02.819 --> 00:29:13.259
Um, in that she, she hates the doctor in Rose's world, but also she's, she's really introspiritualism at this time as, as she says herself, which is, which is pretty interesting.

344
00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:16.200
She's lost her husband.

345
00:29:16.259 --> 00:29:17.579
She's grieving.

346
00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:21.299
She is facing her own mortality.

347
00:29:22.019 --> 00:29:44.940
I think she's wonderful in at the dinner, you know, when they're talking about her husband, and the doctor says to her, you must really miss him, and she's kind of a little bit blindsided by that, as if, you know, it's not the sort of question the queen would get asked, you know, a question about, about her feelings.

348
00:29:44.940 --> 00:29:48.480
It's an intimate question from someone that doesn't know her.

349
00:29:48.539 --> 00:29:52.859
She, yeah, as a member of the royal family.

350
00:29:52.920 --> 00:29:54.480
She wouldn't be asked such a direct question.

351
00:29:54.539 --> 00:29:55.019
Yeah.

352
00:29:55.619 --> 00:30:05.220
And I think the doctor in that scene is much less obnoxious because, you know, Billy Piper has the day off that day and she's, you know, Rose isn't there.

353
00:30:05.279 --> 00:30:08.819
And so he's not sort of showing off in front of her.

354
00:30:08.940 --> 00:30:12.299
You know, he's a lot more likeable in that scene.

355
00:30:12.359 --> 00:30:21.059
And she, you know, she expresses how much she misses him, but then kind of pulls herself up and then there's the twinkle in her eye again.

356
00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:23.160
I think it's a good performance.

357
00:30:23.220 --> 00:30:24.299
We haven't even said who it is.

358
00:30:24.359 --> 00:30:29.099
It's Pauline Collins, of course, who was Shirley Valentine.

359
00:30:29.160 --> 00:30:37.140
Um, but more importantly for us, um, she's, um, She's Sam breaks in the faceless ones.

360
00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:43.740
Oh, sometimes wonder what it would have been like if she'd actually been brought on as companion.

361
00:30:43.799 --> 00:30:44.759
Really?

362
00:30:44.819 --> 00:30:45.299
Yeah.

363
00:30:45.299 --> 00:30:47.220
I love Victoria.

364
00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:49.380
Yeah, she could she could come along with Victoria.

365
00:30:50.460 --> 00:30:54.420
Yes, her playing an altar version of herself.

366
00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:58.259
That would be, sorry, her original character and Victoria at the same time.

367
00:30:58.319 --> 00:30:59.220
That would be brilliant.

368
00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:02.700
Oh, I meant, I meant waterfield. as well.

369
00:31:02.759 --> 00:31:06.900
It could be Victoria Waterfield and Queen Victoria.

370
00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:11.819
Oh, no, I love her performance in this.

371
00:31:11.880 --> 00:31:28.259
I think it's just, it's so good and it manages to, you get the, oh, the sort of standoffishness and the imperialism and you're like, oh, yes, this is definitely woman who's messing up the world with her ridiculous empire.

372
00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:30.420
Although by this point it's more parallel its fault.

373
00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:33.420
Um, but she's also, she's also a real person.

374
00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:35.400
We're also invited to have compassion for her.

375
00:31:35.460 --> 00:31:52.380
She's very personable. and interesting and she, it's, it's a nuanced performance with with layers, but it doesn't, I don't feel that it whitewashes her, uh, a lot, her, uh, her negative impact on history.

376
00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:54.539
We don't forget the imperialism here.

377
00:31:54.599 --> 00:31:56.400
It's mentioned several times the empire.

378
00:31:56.460 --> 00:32:00.000
And I don't think it's mentioned with any sort of reverence.

379
00:32:00.059 --> 00:32:01.680
You could argue it's a neutral mention.

380
00:32:01.740 --> 00:32:17.160
But um, I think given what she starts at the end, given um, the sense of, I don't know, um, we must protect the British Empire from this stuff, it's, uh, it, it is a, gentle, gentle condemnation.

381
00:32:17.220 --> 00:32:26.940
Um, but then there's, there's a fascinating contrast in what she says, because, well, at least this is what made me think of, is when she says, um, now, now leave my world.

382
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:31.680
The 1st thing I remember thinking when I heard that was, was the brigadier in battlefield, get off my world.

383
00:32:31.740 --> 00:32:35.099
And they're both saying, I'm human.

384
00:32:35.160 --> 00:32:41.099
The earth is my planet, a new alien person that is just not here or should be here. leave.

385
00:32:41.160 --> 00:32:44.279
And to say it to the doctor is like, huh, interesting.

386
00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:54.660
It is sort of surprising that she has this terrible experience with this sort of awful monster, but her takeaway is that the doctor and rose are the problem.

387
00:32:55.319 --> 00:33:02.579
And I actually think, and I don't know whether it's just because of when we're watching it now.

388
00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:09.900
But that thing about defending our borders, you know, now, I think, has a sort of peculiar resonance.

389
00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:13.319
It's gained a lot more meaning.

390
00:33:13.380 --> 00:33:15.420
Especially the last few years.

391
00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:18.119
And it is that thing where she has a world.

392
00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:40.920
I mean, we saw it with Charles Dickens as well last year, that that sort of idea that, um, intellectually, the Victorian world kinds of sees itself as having understood everything that there is to understand, having gone through a whole heap of sort of scientific revolutions and quote from a ghost light.

393
00:33:41.460 --> 00:33:46.079
Well, it is, it's like ghost like, she's like lies in ghost light.

394
00:33:46.140 --> 00:33:54.599
You know, she wants a comprehensible world and the doctor is this sort of chaotic sort of force who comes in in disrupt.

395
00:33:54.720 --> 00:33:56.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

396
00:33:56.099 --> 00:33:59.220
And so this thing about sort of slamming down the borders.

397
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:14.880
And then later in the year when we actually see what Torchwood has ended up being, and it's, you know, like a little outpost of the British Empire that still uses kind of imperial measurements and things.

398
00:34:14.940 --> 00:34:20.699
And I think just now that seems sort of particularly resonant.

399
00:34:20.760 --> 00:34:27.000
I was actually a bit shocked by how much I disliked Victoria in that last scene.

400
00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:30.719
She's a Victoria that would have voted for Brexit.

401
00:34:30.840 --> 00:34:31.920
That's right.

402
00:34:32.579 --> 00:34:34.139
Breakfast.

403
00:34:34.199 --> 00:34:41.699
She has, she has, she actually has the empire that good old Brexit here. imagine that somehow we still have.

404
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:43.260
She did have it.

405
00:34:43.320 --> 00:34:46.199
So, um, yeah, she she wouldn't have.

406
00:34:46.260 --> 00:34:50.400
Yeah, she's she's got the most bland on the planet at that point.

407
00:34:50.460 --> 00:34:59.099
Yeah, no, I don't think she's about to be likeable now, I've seen, but I think it's kind, it's, I think it's meant to be, it's not flat out.

408
00:34:59.159 --> 00:35:12.780
Oh my god, you evil baddie, because she has just watched these people laugh and dance about immediately after people who are giving their lives for her, and that she's known some of them a long time, are ripped to pieces by a werewolf.

409
00:35:12.840 --> 00:35:16.679
It's a bit of an odd reaction from her perspective, bit bit creepy.

410
00:35:16.739 --> 00:35:18.900
I wouldn't want them around either.

411
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:22.440
Um, but I don't have an empire to exile them from.

412
00:35:22.860 --> 00:35:25.079
She does knight them.

413
00:35:25.139 --> 00:35:28.559
You know immediately before that, which I think is odd as well.

414
00:35:28.619 --> 00:35:41.400
Like there is this recognition that, you know, that the doctor and her saved them, and that they did do a good thing, and she gives them an honour, and it is a sort of massive surprise.

415
00:35:41.460 --> 00:35:48.300
And, I mean, how did Rose and the doctor look after she suddenly change his tone and starts exiling them?

416
00:35:48.360 --> 00:35:51.239
Well, like the wind's being taken out of their sails.

417
00:35:51.300 --> 00:35:56.099
She may have had like a good grasp of this is the way to really get through to them.

418
00:35:56.159 --> 00:35:59.340
You know, I'm gonna, you did save my life.

419
00:35:59.400 --> 00:36:00.239
I'm very grateful.

420
00:36:00.300 --> 00:36:02.400
I will express my gratitude in the royal way.

421
00:36:02.460 --> 00:36:11.280
But I'm also going to use this opportunity to let you know just how annoyed I am. put you in your place.

422
00:36:11.340 --> 00:36:19.019
And she does it, of course, by saying the thing that Rose has very obviously been trying to get her to say.

423
00:36:19.019 --> 00:36:23.099
And it's absolutely clear that she knows all along what's going on there.

424
00:36:23.159 --> 00:36:32.820
And so when she comes to do that and when Rose wins the bet and gets what she wants, there's just this shot of Rose looking horrifically embarrassed.

425
00:36:33.300 --> 00:36:35.280
As she should.

426
00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:59.579
So, did you know that, originally, whilst Russell was scripting this story, he had actually planned to kill Victoria at the end of the episode?

427
00:36:59.639 --> 00:37:12.360
And yes, and that was going to be the alteration to history that created the alternate universe that we end up in the Cybermen 2 parter and then revisit in Army of Ghosts and Doomsday.

428
00:37:12.420 --> 00:37:15.000
But then, what hamster real history?

429
00:37:15.059 --> 00:37:17.159
How do we get our universe?

430
00:37:17.820 --> 00:37:21.719
He decided it was too complex for the casual view.

431
00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:23.280
Just drop it.

432
00:37:23.579 --> 00:37:35.400
I kind of like that because, you know, they created an alternate timeline, they don't end up living in it, but somehow, it sort of spires off.

433
00:37:35.460 --> 00:37:41.460
Yeah, but you get the cybermen coming up out of that and invading our universe and killing lots of people.

434
00:37:41.519 --> 00:37:47.340
Surely they would have had some reaction to going, oops, maybe we shouldn't have got Victoria killed.

435
00:37:47.400 --> 00:37:49.139
This is bad.

436
00:37:49.260 --> 00:37:52.139
That would have been an amazing moment.

437
00:37:52.199 --> 00:37:53.699
They were just like, is she dead?

438
00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:54.360
Is she really dead?

439
00:37:54.420 --> 00:37:55.019
She coming back?

440
00:37:55.079 --> 00:37:57.360
Oh my goodness, she's dead.

441
00:37:57.420 --> 00:38:01.079
It's a thing that Doctor Who has never done before, has it?

442
00:38:01.139 --> 00:38:04.260
Like it's got history wrong and it kind of does that sort of fairly regularly.

443
00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:06.300
And even here, the best new adventures.

444
00:38:06.599 --> 00:38:11.940
But it always sort of tries to keep the shape of history kind of happening.

445
00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:17.639
And it's one of the problems, I think, with sort of historicals in a way because...

446
00:38:17.639 --> 00:38:24.840
You can't rewrite history and not one line, the doctor's kind of stuck, you know, making sure things go along a sort of predetermined path.

447
00:38:24.900 --> 00:38:29.820
Um, whereas that would have been a big surprise.

448
00:38:29.880 --> 00:38:40.139
But I think, like, one of the things that Russell has, I think, is a real instinct for what, you know, what works for the audience and keeping a sort of broad audience appeal.

449
00:38:40.380 --> 00:38:42.179
I think you're right.

450
00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:57.719
I think Russell more than any of the people that have come after him understand mainstream primetime drama and what will attract a broad audience.

451
00:38:57.780 --> 00:39:06.420
I loved most of the last 7 years of Doctor Who, but by the end of it, it had become made for the fans.

452
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:11.820
And I think they've course corrected quite a lot in the last series.

453
00:39:11.880 --> 00:39:20.880
But I still think that Russell's Doctor Who was the most accessible era of the modern show.

454
00:39:20.940 --> 00:39:31.320
Oh, I'd pick season 5 just because that's that's my favourite, but also I think I think actually now the 11th hour is is the sort of one that I say that's what you should start with.

455
00:39:31.380 --> 00:39:40.139
And if you, there's, if there's nothing in that that you appeals to you at all, then this probably is not the show for you kind of thing.

456
00:39:40.199 --> 00:39:42.360
I think I think that works better now as an entry point.

457
00:39:42.420 --> 00:39:45.480
I think season five, if we're going for the popular thing.

458
00:39:45.539 --> 00:39:48.059
I think that works very, very well in the same kind of way.

459
00:39:48.119 --> 00:39:57.960
But after that, you can definitely make that argument, even though this is my favourite era of new and one of my favourite eras of who.

460
00:39:58.019 --> 00:40:07.019
So my inclination is to defend it against all criticisms and say that it's perfect in every way, even though that might be objectively incorrect.

461
00:40:08.400 --> 00:40:14.760
No, look, I mean, I I, as a fan, I totally, I totally get where you're coming from with that.

462
00:40:14.820 --> 00:40:19.079
I really loved Stephen Moffat's take on Doctor Who.

463
00:40:19.139 --> 00:40:32.099
No, no, I completely get who coming on the popularity thing because this is a show that was just remembered as, you know, it was in our pop culture, but it was kind of a joke, you know, terrible special effects, wobbly sets and vertic commas because it happened like twice.

464
00:40:32.159 --> 00:40:36.179
Um, and it became the most biggest show on television.

465
00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:43.380
Everyone absolutely adored and it just got bigger and bigger and bigger under Russell's rain as far as I remember.

466
00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:46.199
I'm really not good with like viewing figures and stuff.

467
00:40:46.260 --> 00:40:49.260
It's one of my latest favourite topics.

468
00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:51.300
I think it does get huge.

469
00:40:51.360 --> 00:40:54.599
I think Stolen Earth and Journeys end up sort of massive in terms of ratings.

470
00:40:54.659 --> 00:40:58.679
Like it's, uh, it's near nearly as big as the show ever got.

471
00:40:58.739 --> 00:41:07.199
But, I mean, this is a story that Moffat would never have done simply because it is really very, very linear and simple.

472
00:41:07.260 --> 00:41:25.139
And, you know, I think it's telling that we're talking about lots of other things apart from the story itself. because you know, once you get past what it looks like, the shape of it and the main characters and the sort of conflict between them, there's not really that much to it, is there?

473
00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:37.320
Yeah, I don't think it's, I don't think it's completely flat and shallow and meaningless, but there's, um, it would not be entirely incorrect, so there's not great deal of depth to it.

474
00:41:37.380 --> 00:41:42.719
It's a very something wrong with very plot driven, quite action adventure, great atmosphere.

475
00:41:42.780 --> 00:41:52.739
Um, but it'd be very difficult to, you know, if you want, if you want, if you were writing about about the themes to get a lot of words out of it, you probably could if you really tried.

476
00:41:52.800 --> 00:42:08.460
You could get a lot in about, I guess, popular perceptions of Scotland and of what this says about English writers looking at the country and what they think they can get away with or something.

477
00:42:08.519 --> 00:42:11.820
So actually, actually, I really...

478
00:42:11.880 --> 00:42:13.199
Maybe.

479
00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:16.440
Why do we think it is in Scotland?

480
00:42:16.500 --> 00:42:20.940
Because Scotland's, because Scotland hasn't had any Doctor Who stories hardly.

481
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:22.800
We need what we're said in Scotland.

482
00:42:22.860 --> 00:42:24.179
Oh, I'm not objecting.

483
00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:26.219
I'm just wondering whether there was anything particular.

484
00:42:26.280 --> 00:42:29.219
Is it just the prevalence of Shaolin monks that...

485
00:42:29.219 --> 00:42:37.019
I think I think it was because Queen Victoria, if you're setting Elite in her range, she spent a heck of a lot of it in Scotland in Balmoral.

486
00:42:37.500 --> 00:42:51.000
And if you want to have werewolves, the feeling is more, I don't know, you could, I guess you could sit it somewhere in England, in the north, there's like Moors or that, but if it feels more of a Scottish thing.

487
00:42:51.059 --> 00:42:54.900
And the last wolf in the country was killed in Scotland.

488
00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:56.699
We had wolves the longest.

489
00:42:56.760 --> 00:43:00.420
They were still, they were still wiped out in the 18th century.

490
00:43:00.539 --> 00:43:03.719
I think the last rule was like... well extinct by this point.

491
00:43:03.780 --> 00:43:07.500
Yeah, I want to say 1743 but I might be well out with that.

492
00:43:07.559 --> 00:43:10.199
I think I think that's about right.

493
00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:11.039
It was somewhere.

494
00:43:11.519 --> 00:43:13.920
I crossed that in my reading.

495
00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:15.900
The story.

496
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:19.500
I think, yeah, it was mid mid 18th century.

497
00:43:19.559 --> 00:43:21.239
That some serious research.

498
00:43:21.539 --> 00:43:25.320
But yeah, I just it fits with the theme of it.

499
00:43:25.380 --> 00:43:32.400
It fits with how you're feeling and, you know, Scotland's very far away and foreign, but not too foreign.

500
00:43:32.460 --> 00:43:34.500
They still almost speak English there.

501
00:43:34.559 --> 00:43:38.820
So it's kind of thing.

502
00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:45.780
Um, yeah, I, I, I'm just, I think it's because it's associated with Victoria and it's, it's more reasonable to think.

503
00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:51.000
Maybe there is a wolf still out there because as Victoria says, you know, there's story.

504
00:43:51.059 --> 00:43:52.500
She doesn't believe there's any wolves left.

505
00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:54.480
But she's like, oh, stories scare the children.

506
00:43:54.539 --> 00:43:57.480
And I bet Victorian's children are still like, oh, there's totally rules out there.

507
00:43:57.539 --> 00:44:10.860
I've been suspicious about wolves in forests before, and I knew perfectly well there weren't any out there, but maybe there were, and they're just really good at hiding for 200 years. less werewolf and more werewolf.

508
00:44:11.039 --> 00:44:13.679
That's terrible. sorry.

509
00:44:13.739 --> 00:44:14.579
I'm sorry.

510
00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:15.960
So good.

511
00:44:16.019 --> 00:44:17.159
Quality putting.

512
00:44:18.300 --> 00:44:19.739
Sorry.

513
00:44:19.739 --> 00:44:22.260
Do apologise. was quality.

514
00:44:26.400 --> 00:44:57.780
For me, I guess the thing that stands out here is it's the 1st time that Doctor Who has been really sort of confident to just base a whole story on essentially action, uh, that they find themselves in a position where they can do lots of proper running around uh, in a sort of expansive location and set an episode, which largely consists of running away from the monster and then sort of stopping and regr and then running away from the monster.

515
00:44:57.840 --> 00:45:03.420
And I think that that's something that hasn't really properly been tried.

516
00:45:03.480 --> 00:45:07.619
Um, simply because technically it wasn't a possibility.

517
00:45:07.739 --> 00:45:09.059
Yeah.

518
00:45:09.059 --> 00:45:15.780
And generally, genuinely, you make them, you make them lumbering and slow menace, don't you?

519
00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:19.019
Historically speaking, side men.

520
00:45:19.079 --> 00:45:21.659
Ice warriors, Dalek.

521
00:45:22.260 --> 00:45:27.539
I could definitely see this being stretched out to like 6 parts in the 60s.

522
00:45:27.599 --> 00:45:28.980
I could see how they do that.

523
00:45:29.099 --> 00:45:36.179
It would not be as good, I don't think, even though I'm very much for give me all the padding that you like.

524
00:45:36.239 --> 00:45:41.940
I don't mind, lovely 60s who, that's not padding, that's character development sort of.

525
00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:42.300
Yeah.

526
00:45:42.300 --> 00:45:45.300
It's meat on the bone.

527
00:45:45.360 --> 00:45:48.300
Well, it varies from story to story, does it?

528
00:45:50.519 --> 00:45:53.280
This one's in our fantasy world.

529
00:45:54.599 --> 00:45:59.219
But yeah, this does have that that feel like they've gone.

530
00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:04.860
Well, let's let's see how you like our base under stage with pacing in it.

531
00:46:04.920 --> 00:46:07.079
And that is it, isn't it?

532
00:46:07.139 --> 00:46:09.780
It is a problem based under siege, too.

533
00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:21.599
I mean, we haven't had one since, well, actually probably last week, um, with New Earth, uh, which has a little base under siege moment where they all go into quarantine and sort of zombies start long bringing around the place.

534
00:46:21.659 --> 00:46:35.760
But this is a little bit more of a trend base under siege and that comparison with horror of fang rock complete with its, you know, mythical tales of a beast and and no one can get out and all of that sort of thing.

535
00:46:35.820 --> 00:46:39.480
You know, that's that's a sort of classic base under siege.

536
00:46:39.539 --> 00:46:43.500
So, yeah, maybe that's they're doing a base under siege at speed.

537
00:46:43.619 --> 00:46:45.179
On speed.

538
00:46:45.239 --> 00:46:50.940
Have there even been any quite fast monsters in Noohoo by this point?

539
00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:52.139
I was thinking through them.

540
00:46:52.380 --> 00:46:56.460
Except for those slithine in those Sichi shirts.

541
00:46:57.780 --> 00:47:00.599
Yes, that's a bit difficult.

542
00:47:00.659 --> 00:47:04.380
Well, they don't come across as that limber when we're seeing the costumes.

543
00:47:04.440 --> 00:47:17.099
So it's like, are they actually that fast or was that a trick of the light because I'm trying to, it's difficult for me to, for me to get the kind of like head cannon in there that the yes were actually that fast because I don't believe it.

544
00:47:17.219 --> 00:47:21.119
I think they were lumbering rubber suits.

545
00:47:21.179 --> 00:47:21.840
I love them.

546
00:47:21.900 --> 00:47:24.480
I love those stories, but...

547
00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:25.019
No, me too.

548
00:47:25.019 --> 00:47:26.340
Absolutely adore them.

549
00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:26.820
Fantastic.

550
00:47:26.880 --> 00:47:28.079
Hugely underrated.

551
00:47:28.139 --> 00:47:28.619
So much fun.

552
00:47:28.679 --> 00:47:30.239
Oh, wonderful.

553
00:47:30.360 --> 00:47:33.900
Isn't that your favourite 2 part of the new series?

554
00:47:34.019 --> 00:47:35.219
No, it's not.

555
00:47:35.280 --> 00:47:43.199
I still like, um, I still like, um, Bad Wolf and um, Parting of the Way is an enormous amount, but certainly that 2 parter is wonderful.

556
00:47:43.260 --> 00:47:48.659
It's just where the hell's it going to go next, the scale of it, you know, it's so great.

557
00:47:48.719 --> 00:47:52.619
The 1st watch of it, but I just, I remember, oh, it was so good.

558
00:47:52.860 --> 00:47:57.840
Even just at the start, we were like, 0 my gosh, they're a year later and they've come back.

559
00:47:57.900 --> 00:48:00.360
This was so new, a novel, exciting.

560
00:48:00.420 --> 00:48:03.059
Oh, such a long time ago now.

561
00:48:03.119 --> 00:48:03.659
That's terrible.

562
00:48:03.719 --> 00:48:06.780
Yeah, and it's got plenty of Camille Kaduri.

563
00:48:06.840 --> 00:48:07.679
Well, that's right.

564
00:48:07.739 --> 00:48:08.760
That's it.

565
00:48:08.820 --> 00:48:10.380
She's so great.

566
00:48:31.980 --> 00:48:41.340
Well, dear listener, we've defeated the werewolf, and so we're heading back home to do some offsted style school inspections, and maybe to meet up with an old friend.

567
00:48:41.400 --> 00:48:44.159
We'll see you next week for school reunion.

568
00:48:44.280 --> 00:48:53.699
In the meantime, you can find us at flightthroughentirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at FTE Podcast on Twitter.

569
00:48:53.699 --> 00:49:06.719
You can also find us at our series 11 Flashcast Jody into terra, which is at Jodyintaterra.com, and over on Bondfinger, we've completely run out of Bond films, and we've started making commentaries on a variety of other spy movies.

570
00:49:06.780 --> 00:49:13.860
You can find that at bondfinger.com, bondfinger on Facebook and Apple podcasts and at bondfingercast on Twitter.

571
00:49:13.920 --> 00:49:16.380
Liz, where can people find you?

572
00:49:16.440 --> 00:49:18.599
They can find me on Twitter?

573
00:49:18.659 --> 00:49:28.860
At LM Miles and at my website with my very regularly updated block at ww.lmiles.com.

574
00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:31.619
Also, if I'm allowed to do a quick plug.

575
00:49:33.360 --> 00:49:43.679
Also, there's the 1st 12th doctor adventure from Big Finish is coming out in February and it's a short story called the Astria Conspiracy and it's written by me.

576
00:49:43.800 --> 00:49:46.440
If you'd like to pre-order it.

577
00:49:46.500 --> 00:49:49.019
I'd be ever so grateful. already had.

578
00:49:49.079 --> 00:49:50.460
Thank you bless you.

579
00:49:52.199 --> 00:49:53.880
Brilliant.

580
00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:57.300
Well, look, thank you so much for agreeing to join us.

581
00:49:57.360 --> 00:49:59.099
It's been fantastic talking to you today.

582
00:49:59.159 --> 00:50:00.659
Thank you for having me on your lovely show.

583
00:50:00.719 --> 00:50:02.039
It's been a delight.

584
00:50:02.099 --> 00:50:03.360
Thank you.

585
00:50:03.420 --> 00:50:10.619
Well, until next time, may you remember to bring plenty of mistletoe the next time you're invited to the royal garden party.

586
00:50:10.679 --> 00:50:12.539
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

587
00:50:12.599 --> 00:50:13.320
Good night.

588
00:50:13.380 --> 00:50:14.579
Good morning.

589
00:50:17.639 --> 00:50:23.699
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, James Selwood, and special guest star Elizabeth Miles.

590
00:50:23.760 --> 00:50:27.599
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings performance by Jane Orberg.

591
00:50:27.659 --> 00:50:35.039
This episode, having a laugh about werewolves, was recorded on the 20th of January 2019 and released on the 24th of March.

592
00:50:38.099 --> 00:50:42.300
If anyone out there knows Josh the Werewolf, would you mind asking him to get in touch?

593
00:50:42.420 --> 00:50:43.679
No pressure or anything.

594
00:50:43.739 --> 00:50:44.699
Just for a drink.

595
00:50:44.760 --> 00:50:45.780
We'll see how it goes from there.

596
00:50:50.219 --> 00:50:53.159
Um, all right, I don't know.

597
00:50:53.219 --> 00:50:54.960
We should, I...

598
00:50:54.960 --> 00:50:56.280
What do you think?

599
00:50:56.340 --> 00:50:56.940
Yes, please.

600
00:50:58.380 --> 00:51:01.260
So, you know where the title comes from?

601
00:51:01.380 --> 00:51:02.760
Tennyson.

602
00:51:02.820 --> 00:51:03.179
Yes.

603
00:51:04.320 --> 00:51:06.119
Well, that was quick.

604
00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:08.940
Well, no, no, no.

605
00:51:09.000 --> 00:51:11.159
Like, so family, family history?

606
00:51:11.940 --> 00:51:13.380
No.

607
00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:16.380
My...

608
00:51:16.380 --> 00:51:23.099
Well, my father's great, great, great aunt married Lord Tennyson.

609
00:51:23.159 --> 00:51:23.760
Really?

610
00:51:23.820 --> 00:51:24.480
What?

611
00:51:24.480 --> 00:51:27.599
Maybe there aren't enough greats in there.

612
00:51:27.659 --> 00:51:29.159
God.

613
00:51:29.219 --> 00:51:31.260
Yeah, no, Emily Selwood.

614
00:51:31.320 --> 00:51:32.820
Wow.

615
00:51:33.539 --> 00:51:36.000
Do you have a Wikipedia page?

616
00:51:36.059 --> 00:51:37.559
Do I?

617
00:51:37.619 --> 00:51:39.239
Yeah, I think I do.

618
00:51:39.300 --> 00:51:39.900
You should.

619
00:51:41.099 --> 00:51:43.920
Is that, is that, okay.

620
00:51:43.980 --> 00:51:44.400
Wow.

621
00:51:44.460 --> 00:51:45.780
Yeah, that's amazing.

622
00:51:45.840 --> 00:51:52.800
Um, I don't have, I only discovered this in the last couple of years.

623
00:51:52.860 --> 00:51:53.579
Wow.

624
00:51:53.639 --> 00:51:54.659
Um, yeah.

625
00:51:54.900 --> 00:51:56.639
It's very cool.

626
00:51:57.239 --> 00:51:58.199
It's kind of cool.

627
00:51:58.260 --> 00:52:02.340
Not a direct descendant. or anything.

628
00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:04.079
I, you know, say, I mean...

629
00:52:04.079 --> 00:52:06.539
But you still feel that you could take a little bit of credit for this episode.

630
00:52:06.599 --> 00:52:08.460
Oh, yeah, yeah.

631
00:52:08.519 --> 00:52:09.000
Totally.

632
00:52:09.059 --> 00:52:10.800
Repeat rights, I would think.

633
00:52:11.639 --> 00:52:15.239
So it is a strange choice for the title.

634
00:52:15.300 --> 00:52:16.380
Do you think?

635
00:52:16.440 --> 00:52:21.239
Did we have Queen Victoria as a, that would have been just a sort of rough working time?

636
00:52:21.300 --> 00:52:26.039
Well, yeah, so Queen Victoria, yeah, because it was the Queen Victoria story.

637
00:52:26.099 --> 00:52:33.539
But I think, you know, choosing a line from a poem by her poet laureate.

638
00:52:33.599 --> 00:52:35.099
Yeah, yeah. is appropriate.

639
00:52:35.159 --> 00:52:35.519
Yep.

640
00:52:35.519 --> 00:52:40.860
It, it's, um, you know, it describes the monster.

641
00:52:40.920 --> 00:52:41.940
It does what it says on the tin.

642
00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:42.599
Yeah, yeah.

643
00:52:42.659 --> 00:52:43.139
Yeah.

644
00:52:43.139 --> 00:52:44.460
I guess that's fair enough.

645
00:52:44.760 --> 00:52:53.280
And keeping with the cane of, I don't want to say literalism, that's extreme, but, you know, keeping going to street forwardness of the story.

646
00:52:53.340 --> 00:52:58.380
You know, you don't want an out there title. to just accidentally confuse you and think it might be deep.

647
00:52:58.739 --> 00:53:01.739
It's not a Babylon 5 episode.

648
00:53:01.800 --> 00:53:02.400
That helps.