WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:14:55 1 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:45.780 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast, which really enjoys eating its own oil, and we're doing it now. 2 00:00:45.840 --> 00:00:47.399 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:47.460 --> 00:00:48.299 I'm James. 4 00:00:48.420 --> 00:00:50.340 I'm Todd, and I'm Stephen. 5 00:00:50.399 --> 00:01:00.299 It's 29th of April, 2006, and a daft little tea time science fiction program is about to emotionally devastate a whole generation of ageing fans. 6 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:02.880 Kleenex is at the ready, everyone. 7 00:01:02.939 --> 00:01:05.400 It's time for a school reunion. 8 00:01:17.459 --> 00:01:22.260 So, um, Stephen, is this one of the many Doctor Who episodes that makes you cry? 9 00:01:22.319 --> 00:01:23.760 Yeah, absolutely. 10 00:01:23.819 --> 00:01:26.519 This one reduces me to tears every single time. 11 00:01:26.579 --> 00:01:32.040 I think I probably start crying 15 minutes in, you know, just in anticipation. 12 00:01:32.099 --> 00:01:32.819 Really? 13 00:01:32.939 --> 00:01:33.840 Well yeah. 14 00:01:33.900 --> 00:01:34.799 Really? 15 00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:39.480 I've got a stone cold dead heart because, you know, I don't cry at this anymore. 16 00:01:39.540 --> 00:01:40.260 Okay. 17 00:01:41.159 --> 00:01:43.439 You know, let's let's start off with this. 18 00:01:43.500 --> 00:01:46.200 I think the fact that, you know, Liz is gone. 19 00:01:46.260 --> 00:01:47.640 We don't have Liz anymore. 20 00:01:47.700 --> 00:01:49.200 Just seeing her. 21 00:01:49.500 --> 00:01:54.239 Without her knowing who the doctor is, he's trying to make you cry. 22 00:01:54.359 --> 00:01:55.680 I'm trying to make time cry. 23 00:01:55.739 --> 00:01:58.379 Yes, listeners, they're looking to react me. 24 00:01:58.439 --> 00:02:02.099 So yeah, so just for the 1st time that we see her. 25 00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:04.859 I just think about how wonderful she was. 26 00:02:04.980 --> 00:02:06.180 God, you fools. 27 00:02:07.560 --> 00:02:10.800 I'm tearing up as we speak. 28 00:02:10.860 --> 00:02:11.580 Okay. 29 00:02:11.639 --> 00:02:13.860 I well up from like the moment she comes on screen. 30 00:02:13.919 --> 00:02:15.000 Yeah, yeah. 31 00:02:15.060 --> 00:02:16.020 Well, I don't. 32 00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:23.280 It's always the end bit with that my Sarah goodbye, my Sarah Jane, with the music, you know, that's where it gets me. 33 00:02:23.340 --> 00:02:23.939 But up to that point. 34 00:02:24.300 --> 00:02:28.259 The 1st time, obviously, when we 1st saw this, yes. 35 00:02:28.319 --> 00:02:35.460 Yeah, you know, it was like, oh, all the way through, but now I'm sort of, yeah, yeah. 36 00:02:35.520 --> 00:02:41.340 But I can't distinguish it from my childhood memories of watching Sarah Jane Smith and the 4th doctor. 37 00:02:41.400 --> 00:02:43.199 So that's what's immediately brought to mind. 38 00:02:43.199 --> 00:02:48.000 And I think that's probably intentionally in terms of the story too, but I just sort of get cast back to that. 39 00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:52.139 And there's a shedding of a tear, I guess, for the time in between. 40 00:02:52.139 --> 00:02:54.780 And obviously what's happened in the meantime as well. 41 00:02:55.020 --> 00:02:57.539 She was my 1st companion. 42 00:02:57.599 --> 00:03:02.460 Like I've said before, that my 1st Doctor Who story was Death to the Daleks. 43 00:03:02.520 --> 00:03:09.719 And really the only 2 possible people that they could have brought back would have been Joe and Sarah. 44 00:03:09.780 --> 00:03:13.439 And both of them are on the show for roughly the same time. 45 00:03:13.500 --> 00:03:23.759 You know, Sarah's there for a bit longer, but both of them are the ones that create that female companion dynamic that the new show is doing. 46 00:03:23.819 --> 00:03:25.500 Yes, I was thinking about this the other day. 47 00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:30.180 I was thinking, who else could they have brought back if they couldn't have got Elizabeth Slayton? 48 00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:40.259 And like you, I thought, you know, Katie Manning as Joe. And I just kind of went through everybody else and I thought, who else is there? 49 00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:48.659 I mean, the only other person I really thought of was Tegan, but I don't think that character would have worked in this context, it would have to be a completely different type of story. 50 00:03:48.719 --> 00:03:56.039 Yeah, you couldn't sell a story where Tegan was kind of the doctor's ex-girlfriend in any way. 51 00:03:56.099 --> 00:03:57.719 No not at all. 52 00:03:58.439 --> 00:04:01.139 It would have been a very rocky relationship. 53 00:04:01.860 --> 00:04:09.780 But also I think it's quite incredible too, the fact that David Tennant is like 3 episodes into his reign as the doctor. 54 00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:15.000 And suddenly here, you know, he's with this ex-companion. 55 00:04:15.060 --> 00:04:21.540 Like, I was thinking, like, if Eccleston had continued on, how would this have played out, you know? 56 00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:22.860 Would it be just the same thing? 57 00:04:22.920 --> 00:04:26.819 Like it's, you know, he's a bit older than Tenant, you know? 58 00:04:26.879 --> 00:04:32.879 and certainly more the age that Tom was when he was 1st the doctor with Sarah Jane? 59 00:04:32.939 --> 00:04:37.920 I don't think it would have had as much emotional depth and chemistry. 60 00:04:37.980 --> 00:04:38.759 Tenet? 61 00:04:38.819 --> 00:04:39.480 Yeah. 62 00:04:39.480 --> 00:04:42.000 I mean, Tenant, it's a huge fan. 63 00:04:42.060 --> 00:04:48.240 And that's obvious from his performance and the way he just smiles at her, you know, when she 1st turns up. 64 00:04:48.300 --> 00:04:51.420 I love the fact that she's just walking down some stairs talking to the headmaster. 65 00:04:51.480 --> 00:04:53.939 It's all quite subtle. 66 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:55.980 New fans wouldn't have a clue who she is. 67 00:04:56.040 --> 00:04:58.139 And so she's just another character. 68 00:04:58.199 --> 00:05:06.180 For me, it's like I always think about what would new fans be thinking about having this old companion in? 69 00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:08.220 Would they get as emotional as what we get? 70 00:05:08.279 --> 00:05:09.360 Would they be moved at all? 71 00:05:09.420 --> 00:05:21.420 I think, though, for new fans, it does shed a light on the relationship between the doctor and Rose and the next episode's going to do that as well. 72 00:05:21.480 --> 00:05:29.939 Like it's going to start to interrogate that relationship because this is really the height of their relationship this season, isn't it? 73 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:38.100 And, you know, last week we had them larking about and laughing and, you know, running hand in hand and all of that sort of thing. 74 00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:39.660 Like they were very, very close. 75 00:05:39.720 --> 00:05:44.399 And this kind of interrogates that or puts it in quite a different line. 76 00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:55.860 I think that's true, but also from an outsider's point of view, if you're not a YooHoo fan, if you're someone who maybe grew up watching Doctor Who decades ago, this sort of like taps into that childhood memory. 77 00:05:55.860 --> 00:05:57.720 And of course, you're going to remember Sarah Jane. 78 00:05:57.779 --> 00:06:03.420 I think, you know, it's one of the most iconic pairings of classic Doctor Who, along with Katie and John as well. 79 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:11.759 And I think you're right, Todd, I don't think you can sort of pair it with any other old companion because there probably wasn't the connection, I guess. 80 00:06:11.819 --> 00:06:13.740 There's certainly pros in the ratings. 81 00:06:13.800 --> 00:06:18.180 You know, we're talking about the Hyder Doctor Who in this sort of mid 70s period. 82 00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:20.639 So it had to be, had to be Elizabeth Slayden. 83 00:06:20.699 --> 00:06:24.420 Both of these companions also investigate things, you know? 84 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:28.860 Joe was with unit investigating, Sarah was investigative journalist. 85 00:06:29.220 --> 00:06:36.240 Whereas when you look at the background of so many others, they're not the same thing, you know, they don't gives you an in. 86 00:06:36.360 --> 00:06:37.199 Yeah, it gives you an in. 87 00:06:37.319 --> 00:06:49.920 I think also, I mean, I agree with you, Stephen, the, um, she's the right choice because she doesn't have an appeal just for a classic series fan. 88 00:06:49.980 --> 00:06:53.220 She has an appeal for a viewer of the 70s. 89 00:06:53.279 --> 00:06:57.060 Like she appeals to the general audience of the 70s. 90 00:06:57.120 --> 00:07:00.300 If you're going to remember a companion, you're going to remember Sarah James Smith. 91 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:02.939 She is the Doctor Who companion. 92 00:07:03.000 --> 00:07:20.519 I think for Russell, probably the iconic pairing is the doctor and Joe. And I think it's telling that he cast Billy Piper, who looks a bit like Joe and uses the pertweet title sequence, you know, sort of revamped as his title sequence. 93 00:07:20.579 --> 00:07:24.420 I think that that's his pairing. 94 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:30.420 And given that he's a little bit older, like he's got a few years on me, a couple of years on me. 95 00:07:30.540 --> 00:07:31.439 The show. 96 00:07:31.439 --> 00:07:31.980 Yeah. 97 00:07:32.040 --> 00:07:40.199 But it's very clear that when Russell was watching the show, he was imagining that he was Katie or he was Sarah. 98 00:07:40.259 --> 00:07:42.779 Like that was who he was identifying with, I think. 99 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:43.860 Not in drag. 100 00:07:43.920 --> 00:07:44.699 No. 101 00:07:48.540 --> 00:07:53.639 I love all the intro stuff when they mention like John Smith, like... 102 00:07:53.639 --> 00:07:57.060 Yeah, she says I used to have a friend who went by that name. 103 00:07:57.120 --> 00:07:58.259 It's so beautiful. 104 00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:02.579 Just the sheer enthusiasm on tenant's face when he sees her. 105 00:08:02.639 --> 00:08:04.319 It seems so real. 106 00:08:04.379 --> 00:08:07.740 I'll have lots of complaints about David Tennant's performance. 107 00:08:07.800 --> 00:08:15.480 But when he's genuine, when he's showing real emotion, and we'll talk more about that next week, probably. 108 00:08:15.540 --> 00:08:16.740 He's wonderful. 109 00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:17.819 He's so great. 110 00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:20.399 His little fanboy heart is exploding. 111 00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:25.980 Did you know this script was written in a really short time, right? 112 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:31.620 So this is Toby Widhouse's 1st episode, but he wasn't the original writer for the story. 113 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:32.519 Okay. 114 00:08:32.580 --> 00:08:49.019 Initially, much like we discussed last week on Tooth and Claw, Russell got a writer who was new to the show to write a script treatment for it with the shopping list, set in in a school, Sarah Jane Smith, K9. 115 00:08:49.259 --> 00:08:54.179 And the writer went to Ray and came back with a script set in an army base. 116 00:08:55.379 --> 00:08:58.799 And it didn't really gel. 117 00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:05.340 And then they admitted that Doctor Who probably wasn't for them and bowed out. 118 00:09:05.399 --> 00:09:15.299 And so Toby was asked to write this sort of very late stage and was delivered very quickly, but it's still kind of brilliant. 119 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:20.220 Yeah, I think it's great It absolutely is because I don't think the plot really matters here. 120 00:09:20.279 --> 00:09:23.340 It's the emotional heartbeats of the story that are the most important. 121 00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:26.159 For me, and I think for most other viewers as well. 122 00:09:26.220 --> 00:09:36.059 And I've said this before, I think, but for me, I don't really care about the bliz-bloss pop mechanics and how it all sort of makes sense as long as it has that emotional reward and payoff. 123 00:09:36.120 --> 00:09:40.559 And having Sarah Jane Smith meet the doctor again is like that's it as a sentence. 124 00:09:40.620 --> 00:09:42.419 That's all you need for a Doctor Who episode to work. 125 00:09:42.480 --> 00:09:43.559 Who cares about the plot? 126 00:09:43.620 --> 00:09:44.039 Exactly. 127 00:09:44.100 --> 00:09:47.639 No, I'm very much in agreement with you on that. 128 00:09:47.700 --> 00:09:58.440 I think I've always enjoyed storytelling, not just Doctor Who, storytelling in general, which I feel an emotional connection or resonance with. 129 00:09:58.500 --> 00:10:08.879 And that's probably why I still, you know, 10, 15 years later, enjoy Russell's Doctor Who more than anything that's come after it. 130 00:10:09.539 --> 00:10:18.480 I actually think it does a really deaf job of balancing the demands of being a Doctor Who episode with that emotional plot. 131 00:10:18.539 --> 00:10:28.320 And, you know, sometimes they think it would be nice to have a break from aliens and silly things and just do an episode like this without the subplot. 132 00:10:28.379 --> 00:10:36.360 And sometimes you have episodes like this with a very rudimentary subplot, like Boomtown or Power of 3. 133 00:10:37.559 --> 00:10:40.620 But this one, I think, gets it right. 134 00:10:40.679 --> 00:10:43.440 So you're talking about the acrylic. 135 00:10:43.500 --> 00:10:44.039 Yeah. 136 00:10:44.100 --> 00:10:44.759 Subplot. 137 00:10:44.820 --> 00:10:45.240 Yeah. 138 00:10:45.299 --> 00:10:48.539 It's interesting because I always felt that that was the weakest part of this story. 139 00:10:48.600 --> 00:10:53.460 And I've never considered this story better than a 7 out of 10, which might shock some people. 140 00:10:53.580 --> 00:11:02.879 But coming back and watching this season, which I think I've commented already that this is my least favourite of the 1st 5 years of Doctor Who. 141 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:06.720 It's quite interesting because I actually liked this more. 142 00:11:06.779 --> 00:11:10.379 And the Critain was the weakness in this story. 143 00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:21.179 But like I've previously commented how I sort of edit out things in my head and can't remember things, there was certainly a lot more dialogue that I suddenly wasn't remembering going, okay, so they actually do explain this. 144 00:11:21.240 --> 00:11:24.240 So I actually enjoyed that a lot more. 145 00:11:24.299 --> 00:11:27.419 So actually this has gone up from a 7 to an 8 for me. 146 00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:32.519 I think Anthony Stewart head is just delicious in his role as the headmaster. 147 00:11:32.580 --> 00:11:37.799 I mean, you know, that 1st sequence where he takes that girl into that room and then eats devours her. 148 00:11:37.860 --> 00:11:39.480 I'm like, remember, because you're going, 0 my goodness. 149 00:11:39.539 --> 00:11:40.919 The little orphan girl. 150 00:11:40.980 --> 00:11:42.779 Oh, the little orphan girl. 151 00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:44.100 No one to miss you. 152 00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:50.879 I mean, the Krillatain, like, you know, they don't really care very much to keep everything sort of hush hush. 153 00:11:50.940 --> 00:11:55.200 I mean, Kenny walks in and looks down and like that one teacher... 154 00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:57.360 Under the desk and then he's not. 155 00:11:57.419 --> 00:11:58.679 It's sort of like we'll just go away. 156 00:11:58.740 --> 00:12:01.139 Like, it's like, you could have eaten him at this point. 157 00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:04.980 And then that exploding woman, like she does that, you know? 158 00:12:05.100 --> 00:12:06.840 Like, it's so funny. 159 00:12:06.899 --> 00:12:12.600 It is so funny, but it's sort of like, well, we're not really hushing it up and we're not going to do away with you, Rose. 160 00:12:12.659 --> 00:12:14.399 We're just going to say, oh, no, don't ring the Amos. 161 00:12:14.460 --> 00:12:15.360 She just does that, you know? 162 00:12:15.419 --> 00:12:16.740 It's so paper thin. 163 00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:17.879 Is that what I mean? 164 00:12:17.940 --> 00:12:19.139 But it makes it hilarious. 165 00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:27.659 Well, I think Kenny as well. who is the little kid who isn't eating the krillitain oil because he can't eat chips because he's on a special diet. 166 00:12:27.720 --> 00:12:34.259 Like you would think that he would be the 1st one that they would eat, you know, so that is that Russell Fatt shaming? 167 00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:37.379 constantly fat shaming, Russell. 168 00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:38.279 There were things like that. 169 00:12:38.340 --> 00:12:46.679 But I mean, then you've got the counterbalance, which is the big confrontation between the doctor and the headmaster, the swimming pool. 170 00:12:46.740 --> 00:12:48.600 And again, that's just fantastic. 171 00:12:48.659 --> 00:12:55.799 And I love the fact that, again, David Tennant's doctor talks about, you've got one chance. 172 00:12:55.860 --> 00:13:05.279 And yeah, and Anthony Stewart had just, if it wasn't for him, I think that plot possibly would not hang together as, there wouldn't be as much gravitas to it. 173 00:13:05.340 --> 00:13:08.340 I always thought that he would have been a great doctor back in the day. 174 00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:09.960 Like, you know, when he was on Buffy. 175 00:13:10.019 --> 00:13:13.620 I always thought he would be perfect as the doctor. did audition for the TV movie. 176 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:14.580 Oh did he? 177 00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:16.080 Everyone did, though. 178 00:13:16.139 --> 00:13:17.639 Well, he had said everybody, too. 179 00:13:17.700 --> 00:13:19.620 Including Beryl Reed. 180 00:13:19.799 --> 00:13:21.840 She would have been amazing. 181 00:13:21.960 --> 00:13:23.879 Winter's actually on the DVD. 182 00:13:23.940 --> 00:13:24.720 Oh really? 183 00:13:24.779 --> 00:13:25.740 Yeah, I think so. 184 00:13:25.799 --> 00:13:30.539 He's certainly having fun doing scenery chewing and being terribly camp and stuff. 185 00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:31.740 But it works. 186 00:13:31.799 --> 00:13:33.840 And I also think the Krillitain actually worked. 187 00:13:33.899 --> 00:13:36.539 They look very cartoonish, but I actually really like them. 188 00:13:36.600 --> 00:13:37.980 Oh, I do too. 189 00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:43.379 I think there's one shot of one flying in front of the moon, which I think is spectacular. 190 00:13:43.500 --> 00:13:52.080 And there's one where they're running down the corridors and the camera is kind of trying to keep up with them. 191 00:13:52.139 --> 00:14:01.080 You know, they're running down the corridors and they're moving from floor to ceiling and the camera's going around in a sort of circular motion, but it's tracking them. 192 00:14:01.139 --> 00:14:01.919 It's just behind them. 193 00:14:01.980 --> 00:14:02.700 It's good. 194 00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:12.179 Yeah, so for me, that's the aspect of the episode that really did improve on this watch, which I was really pleased about. 195 00:14:12.240 --> 00:14:24.480 I was never down on it in the 1st place, but what I, what I will admit is that it is absolutely the subplot, and it's also a subplot that maybe comes from young adult, or certainly rolled dark kind of schoolyard, fairy tale, um, genre. 196 00:14:24.539 --> 00:14:26.399 You know, it felt like the witches in many regards. 197 00:14:26.460 --> 00:14:33.120 You know, you have that kind of fairy tale aspect that we see throughout Doctor Who, but most explicitly here. 198 00:14:33.179 --> 00:14:45.659 This is something that should not exist or probably oughtn't exist in sort of like the general kind of mood of a Doctor Who story, but it does, and it's great, and it kind of feels like a kid's fairy tale. 199 00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:48.480 And again, because that's the subplot. 200 00:14:48.539 --> 00:14:51.000 The real plot is about Sarah J. 201 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:56.100 Smith and the way in which the doctor companion relationship is defined and redefined. particularly for a newhu era. 202 00:14:56.220 --> 00:15:00.779 You're totally right about redefining everything's been redefined here. 203 00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:07.259 The relationship between Rose and a doctor is put under a spotlight because of Sarah Jane Smith, like the missus and the ex. 204 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:07.679 Yes. 205 00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:16.019 And then working Mickey into the mix and his realisation of who he is and what he wants and redefining all that. 206 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:24.360 I mean, you know, throughout the episode, realising like he's the tin dog, he doesn't want to be the tin dog, and then at the end, you know, can I come on board? 207 00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:25.980 And the face that rose. 208 00:15:25.980 --> 00:15:26.220 Yeah. 209 00:15:26.220 --> 00:15:28.980 She's such a surly little cow. 210 00:15:29.340 --> 00:15:32.879 You know, he wasn't actually in the original draft of the script. 211 00:15:32.940 --> 00:15:34.259 He wasn't in it at all. 212 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:34.799 Oh, really? 213 00:15:34.860 --> 00:15:37.019 He was a late edition. 214 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:38.460 I think he's brilliant in this. 215 00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:43.080 And I think it does give closure to that plot. about him being reluctant to come with a doctor. 216 00:15:43.139 --> 00:15:45.960 So he's not invited in Rose. 217 00:15:46.019 --> 00:16:00.960 He tells the doctor that he can't bear to go with him at the end of World War 3 and now finally he sort of proved himself by doing his rescue mission and helping Rose and the doctor here. 218 00:16:01.019 --> 00:16:03.960 And he decides, yeah, you know, like I'm ready to go with you. 219 00:16:04.019 --> 00:16:19.440 There's so much growth in this episode for him, from finding all the dead rats, rats, and then looking at the acryletane on the, on the roof and running out of the school and and, you know, being perhaps part of the character that was in season one. 220 00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:29.759 And then, you know, pulling the plug at the end, you know, forming a bond with canine or, you know, stepping up and then realising that he can step up. 221 00:16:29.820 --> 00:16:37.019 And I think over the course of this episode and the next two, Noel's performance is as good as ever. 222 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:48.000 Like it really, it really shows such a growth to his character and really puts a spotlight on the character, I think, of Rose and perhaps the growth that she doesn't actually have compared to him. 223 00:16:48.059 --> 00:16:58.500 Although it does give Rose different things to do, you know, like I think that it helps Rose in that sense, even if it sort of brings up how kind of self-involved chicken bee. 224 00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:01.440 But there is a memo where she's not self-involved. 225 00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:06.420 And this is one of my niggles with his episode is how quickly Sarah arcs up at Rose. 226 00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:09.299 Like, literally straight away, she is a bitch to her. 227 00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:10.319 And I really hate it. 228 00:17:10.380 --> 00:17:19.680 Like, I really hate, the 1st line, like the way in which the character delivers whatever, the hello or whatever she says to her. 229 00:17:19.740 --> 00:17:21.900 Well, there's something about, oh, I can tell you're getting older. 230 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:23.039 Your companions are getting younger. 231 00:17:23.099 --> 00:17:24.960 And it's just like getting younger. 232 00:17:25.079 --> 00:17:25.799 Yeah. 233 00:17:25.859 --> 00:17:27.180 I'm not an assistant. 234 00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:30.359 And it's like, well, thanks for that, Sarah. 235 00:17:30.420 --> 00:17:32.579 But Sarah is always very prickly, fair enough. 236 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:41.339 But then we have to have this conflict between them, which is all then just solved over a big name calling thing and lots of laughter that seems to go on far too long. 237 00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:49.500 And failing the Bechdel test at the same time, like it really, really ostentatiously failing to do the Bechdel test. 238 00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:55.440 I mean, Sarah is just jealous and so they're fighting over a man. 239 00:17:55.559 --> 00:17:59.279 So do you know how they got that laughter? 240 00:17:59.339 --> 00:18:00.539 No. 241 00:18:00.599 --> 00:18:10.200 Tenant walked in with a false moustache on. which is why Billy kind of points at him as she's cracking up. 242 00:18:10.259 --> 00:18:11.700 Brilliant. 243 00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:12.480 It's great. 244 00:18:12.539 --> 00:18:13.259 The laughter's great. 245 00:18:13.319 --> 00:18:20.819 That's a great sequence But what's really good is that when Sarah mentions the Loch Ness Monster, It's rose that diffuses that entire situation and begins to laugh. 246 00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:26.220 She could continue on being escalating that argument, but she doesn't. 247 00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:27.599 And it's a really great moment for her. 248 00:18:27.660 --> 00:18:33.359 So it's just a little thing in the episode that it drags it down a little bit for me. 249 00:18:33.420 --> 00:18:50.220 It's just a niggle that I kind of go, really, do we have to have this artificial, I can see why, why we're going this way and we're looking at, you know, the relationship between the doctor and why he leaves companions behind and it's sort of a lot of foreshadowing for what's going to come in the future. 250 00:18:50.220 --> 00:18:54.779 For Yoohoo fans, I think, anyway, to sort of, well, you need to think about this, guys. 251 00:18:54.839 --> 00:18:57.660 They're not going to be around forever and why would that be? 252 00:18:57.720 --> 00:18:59.819 It could have been a lot darker, you know. 253 00:18:59.880 --> 00:19:07.559 Apparently in one of the early drafts of the script, Sarah was written as being a recovering alcoholic. 254 00:19:07.859 --> 00:19:09.720 That wouldn't have worked. 255 00:19:09.779 --> 00:19:11.759 But Liz said no. 256 00:19:11.819 --> 00:19:12.900 Thank God. 257 00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:13.619 Exactly. 258 00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:16.259 It's the wrong tone for Doctor Who. 259 00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:18.240 Yeah, absolutely. too dark, far too dark. 260 00:19:18.299 --> 00:19:34.680 Yeah, but I also think like within the mechanics of the story as well, you needed to have that scene between Sarah Jane and Rose, not just obviously in terms of the exploration and the definition and the redefinition of the companion, but in the way in which like there's 3 really nice pairings in this story. 261 00:19:34.740 --> 00:19:37.559 One of them is Elizabeth Slayton and Billy Piper. 262 00:19:37.619 --> 00:19:42.960 I think Noel Clark, as Mickey and K9 are kind of like the tin dog, if you like. 263 00:19:43.019 --> 00:19:49.740 And then you have David Tennant with that, as you said, Todd, before that incredible scene, with Anthony Head. 264 00:19:49.799 --> 00:19:55.319 So I think in terms of the way in which the story is constructed as well, there's those lovely 3 pairings that work together too. 265 00:19:55.619 --> 00:20:11.400 I think that argument serves another really important purpose as well, because we've had past Doctor Who episodes from the classic series hinted at, and last week we had a reference to Jamie McCrimon. 266 00:20:11.460 --> 00:20:18.599 But this is the 1st acknowledgement that the classic series happened. in this continuity. 267 00:20:18.660 --> 00:20:33.180 And so, yeah, you know, they've been very, very careful, particularly in series one, not to make the show into a sort of train spotting show where you needed a knowledge of 26 seasons. 268 00:20:33.240 --> 00:20:42.660 You know, you needed every Jean-Marc Leficier book and every Peter Hayning book on your shelves in order to be allowed in to enjoy this show. 269 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:45.240 They very, very definitely don't do that. 270 00:20:45.299 --> 00:20:47.279 And here is the 1st time they do it. 271 00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:52.859 And I think it's a renewed confidence after their success last year. 272 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:55.859 But I still think it's a little bit of a risk. 273 00:20:55.920 --> 00:21:01.319 And I think it's mitigated a bit by Tenant himself being such a fan of the show. 274 00:21:01.740 --> 00:21:03.839 I agree with you, Nathan. 275 00:21:03.900 --> 00:21:12.779 I think that, um, like even in his conversation, his his initial conversation outside the Tartars with Sarah, she goes, you've regenerated and he goes several times. 276 00:21:12.839 --> 00:21:18.779 There's this acknowledgement of the history of the show without necessarily getting too bogged down in it. 277 00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:21.180 And by doing the fight sequence with a list of things. 278 00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:28.680 Again, you're doing it in a funny enough way that we're not saying, well, I had an adventure with... 279 00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:29.819 Yeah, I met Bella... 280 00:21:29.819 --> 00:21:34.380 Beast of Aguador, and I met Bellau, and Bellau was my best friend for 5 minutes. 281 00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:35.519 Like, you know what I'm saying. 282 00:21:35.579 --> 00:21:37.440 And I told him to watch out. 283 00:21:37.980 --> 00:21:47.099 Well, in fact, the thing is that a new fan, particularly a young new fan is going to enjoy Billy's references to previous episodes. 284 00:21:47.160 --> 00:21:49.559 So there's something in it for them. 285 00:21:49.619 --> 00:21:57.960 And this is just the ultimate episode for kids to watch with their parents who remember Doctor Who from the 70s. 286 00:21:58.019 --> 00:22:03.539 It's a way for them to bond over a shared love of this new show. 287 00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:09.420 I think it's really, really well judged, but it's certainly not something they would have attempted at all in the 1st year. 288 00:22:09.480 --> 00:22:13.619 Which is the right thing. you know, to keep that continuity away. 289 00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:14.759 Talking of which. 290 00:22:14.819 --> 00:22:21.119 Of course, Sarah mentions, you know, I thought you died like when you left me and like you didn't come back for me. 291 00:22:21.180 --> 00:22:25.559 Like, I found it really interesting because, like, she got K9 and K9 and Company. 292 00:22:25.619 --> 00:22:26.759 She was in the 5 doctors. 293 00:22:26.819 --> 00:22:28.559 So she knew that the doctor lived. 294 00:22:28.619 --> 00:22:29.579 Yeah. 295 00:22:29.579 --> 00:22:50.940 Like, I know it's a bit of a rewrite, but I'm such an anal, returning fan, sort of like, it really, it's sort of like, well, I then have to go back and say, well, when you meet a future doctor and taken out of time, your memory sort of gets sort of muddied, you know, when future doctors meet past doctors, I, when they go back into their time stream, it doesn't quite happen. 296 00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:54.960 Well, let me change the chronology of the show itself. 297 00:22:55.019 --> 00:22:57.359 But, you know, even when Sarah left the show. 298 00:22:57.420 --> 00:22:59.700 Like I just kind of accepted it as a fan. 299 00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:04.319 Like, you know, that was it and her time is over and she recognises that and she moves on. 300 00:23:04.380 --> 00:23:06.779 Like I thought she'd moved on, you know? 301 00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:11.880 So to sort of say, you didn't come back to me and I thought you died. 302 00:23:11.940 --> 00:23:15.059 You know, the fact that she got canine and indicates that he wasn't dead. 303 00:23:15.180 --> 00:23:15.900 Yeah. 304 00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:25.799 I'm sorry, it's just this is why this is not like a 10 out of 10 for me. these little niggly things that get to me as a hardcore fan, which I'm sorry, everybody. 305 00:23:25.859 --> 00:23:34.200 You know, I can brush over a lot of things, but, you know, my absolute love for Sarah Jane Smith and Elizabeth Swaden means that you've got to get it right. 306 00:23:34.259 --> 00:23:36.420 You got to get it you're going to get 101% right. 307 00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:45.000 I feel you can read it as, you know, she's living the emotions of what happened to her and she's saying, I thought you died. 308 00:23:45.059 --> 00:23:48.539 Doesn't really matter that she got canine later. 309 00:23:48.599 --> 00:23:49.200 She thought he died. 310 00:23:49.259 --> 00:23:50.099 Yeah. 311 00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:51.900 That's that's all that matters. 312 00:23:51.960 --> 00:23:56.039 It doesn't matter that she then found out that, you know, he left her a dog. 313 00:23:56.099 --> 00:24:07.559 And then she met, you know, his rather attractive, you know, younger blonder incarnation a few years later because he'd abandoned her. 314 00:24:07.740 --> 00:24:11.819 I think that he has just chosen to ignore the 5 doctors. 315 00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:13.980 You know, I think that that's what's happened. 316 00:24:14.039 --> 00:24:22.920 And I think that the reason that he's done that is Doctor Who's attitude to continuity is that it has to be subordinate to the truth of the story. 317 00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:25.559 And I think you can head cannonet. 318 00:24:25.619 --> 00:24:32.339 I think I thought you died probably means, you know, for the 1st couple of years, and that still works. 319 00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:38.039 I think it does show up how kind of terrible the 5 doctors is. 320 00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:46.259 Not really because it's doing something else, you know, but, 0 my god, you know, the doctor meets his granddaughter, what would that be like? 321 00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:47.640 I don't know, we're not interested. 322 00:24:47.700 --> 00:24:57.240 You know, the doctor and Sarah meets again after all these years. have him like look lasciviously at her across the console room. 323 00:24:57.299 --> 00:24:58.980 It's a bit inappropriate. 324 00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:00.539 No, I take both your points. 325 00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:01.019 Yes, Jamie. 326 00:25:01.079 --> 00:25:02.279 You make a good point about that. 327 00:25:02.339 --> 00:25:06.720 I thought your diet can be just more general rather than at that particular point in time. 328 00:25:06.779 --> 00:25:12.180 But there could have been a little throwaway line of, you know, then canine turned up, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 329 00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:13.380 But it gets in the way of the story. 330 00:25:13.559 --> 00:25:29.339 I think that the weird and the sort of slightly disappointing thing is, um, that her period of time travelling with the doctor has had a negative impact on her life that she hasn't been able to move on that she's on her own. 331 00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:43.740 Like, I'm not saying that being single and, you know, having a career and doing exciting things is a failure, but she plays it in this sort of pained way as if it is a bad thing. 332 00:25:43.799 --> 00:25:56.460 And I think that it's important in Doctor Who, and I think Russell sometimes gets this ride to have the doctor leave his companions better than when he found them. 333 00:25:56.519 --> 00:25:58.559 It's the campsite rule. 334 00:25:58.619 --> 00:25:58.859 Yeah. 335 00:25:58.920 --> 00:26:05.039 Do you know, I think that's, you know, that line, yeah, the most difficult thing is coping with what happens or rather what doesn't happen next. 336 00:26:05.339 --> 00:26:11.460 I think that's another sort of, well, that's how Russell redefines that relationship between the doctor and the companion. 337 00:26:11.579 --> 00:26:20.160 It is an allegory, although probably even more than an allegory in this story are of, you know, the X, you know, the one that you never sort of get over or whatever the case is. 338 00:26:20.220 --> 00:26:32.819 And it's kind of a way that the, to a new audience, I go, I guess, you know, the question of, well, what will happen when Rose leaves the doctor and, you know, what happens when any companion sort of leaves the show, that's how it's framed initially. 339 00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:41.519 But I think you're right, and it's much kinder and nicer to sort of have the companions as we see later on with Russell for the most part anyway, when they leave, they go on to better things. 340 00:26:41.579 --> 00:27:06.420 And that's only good and right, but you hear that sort of emotional devastation and heft that comes from seeing what happened to a character as beloved as Sarah Jane Smith, who was never able to get on with her life, that's the emotional scarring that happens to a companion when you leave the doctor and leave the Tartars. that's one of the reasons why, I guess, I moisten up, if I can quote Dan, about this story. 341 00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:12.119 Both Stephen and yourself, Nathan, have made a really good point. 342 00:27:12.180 --> 00:27:17.880 Perhaps that's why it doesn't sit well with me because I actually always thought that Sarah would go on to greater and better things. 343 00:27:17.940 --> 00:27:30.240 So to see this particular take on it that she feels that she hasn't, perhaps gets to me and I'm going to go, oh, I don't like that because that's not what I had in my head cannon as to what would have happened to her. 344 00:27:30.299 --> 00:27:34.619 And I think that the idea is that this meeting fixes that. 345 00:27:34.680 --> 00:27:36.059 Don't you think? 346 00:27:36.119 --> 00:27:40.200 That she goes off, you know, her own series. 347 00:27:40.259 --> 00:27:46.200 So she goes off and has her own series, marries that lovely man, Nigel Havers, which is bound to turn out well. 348 00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:54.359 And I mean, it does lay the ground for an incredibly successful spinoff. 349 00:27:54.420 --> 00:28:06.480 And that's the other thing that I love about this so much, that JNT recognised how Sarah would be able to carry a spinoff series for kids really well. 350 00:28:06.539 --> 00:28:12.599 Here it's a harder sell because she's much older and a bit pricklier. 351 00:28:12.660 --> 00:28:17.339 But the Sarah Jane Adventures is spectacular. 352 00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:19.259 Like, I just adore it. 353 00:28:19.380 --> 00:28:22.140 And it's wonderful how great she is in it. 354 00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:23.460 You know what I want to say next. 355 00:28:23.579 --> 00:28:24.180 Sorry. 356 00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:28.319 When we're doing the Sarah Jane Adventures, we're not doing the Sarah Jane Adventures podcast. 357 00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:30.299 Do it myself. 358 00:28:30.539 --> 00:28:32.819 Nathan, that's a really good point. 359 00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:38.160 And again, again, it's sort of to frame it back in terms of the real world relationship sort of analogy that's been used here. 360 00:28:38.220 --> 00:28:39.660 It's that importance of closure. 361 00:28:39.720 --> 00:28:41.759 How does Sarah Jane move on after decades? 362 00:28:41.819 --> 00:28:45.420 And we see her move on through the Sarah Jane adventures and, you know, the wonderful life that she has. 363 00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:49.200 It's through that closure that she has to have with the doctor 1st. 364 00:28:49.259 --> 00:29:01.500 And maybe that's just another way that Russell sort of frames it in terms of the companion being kind of like the X. Yeah, I mean, even when we meet her at the beginning, she's becoming the doctor, isn't she? 365 00:29:01.559 --> 00:29:04.019 She's investigating strange things somewhere. 366 00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:06.240 And that's clearly what she does. 367 00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:10.319 She's doing sort of John Pertwe's doctor's job. 368 00:29:10.380 --> 00:29:16.619 And when we next see her in Sarah Jane Adventures, she'll have the Sonic Lipstick. 369 00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:19.440 You know, she'll have a supercomputer and a bass. 370 00:29:19.500 --> 00:29:27.299 She'll have her own set, you know, and she has pretty much become the doctor with her companions and things defending the earth. 371 00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:28.980 And I think it's wonderful. 372 00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:30.420 And I think the show is great. 373 00:29:30.539 --> 00:29:44.220 And one of the things that irritates me about Doctor Who criticism is when people dismiss a Doctor Who episode, like this one, perhaps, as a Sarah Jane Adventures episode, or that it's too much like Sarah Jane Adventures. 374 00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:47.279 And I think that's high praise. 375 00:29:47.339 --> 00:29:49.980 Yes, I think that's a good thing. 376 00:29:50.039 --> 00:29:51.059 It's a reason to watch it. 377 00:29:51.119 --> 00:29:52.859 It's a soft pilot, really. 378 00:29:52.920 --> 00:30:00.539 Yes, it does feel like that because one of the sequences I don't particularly like is all the kids on the computers. 379 00:30:00.599 --> 00:30:01.980 Like this school has so many computers. 380 00:30:02.039 --> 00:30:04.079 Like even my school doesn't have that many computers. 381 00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:14.339 And they just sort of type away at the things doing whatever and it's all, you know, the graphics come up on the screen and I just don't, I actually don't buy it for one single 2nd as a computer sciences teacher. 382 00:30:14.339 --> 00:30:15.599 That's a computer science teacher. 383 00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:20.940 I don't buy it for a 2nd and I just sit there going, this is so like we've got no budget. 384 00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:24.480 This is like the Sarah Jane Adventures, like not as not as a bad thing. 385 00:30:24.539 --> 00:30:29.339 But then the director's trying to crossfade and we're trying to have sweeping music and everything. 386 00:30:29.400 --> 00:30:32.339 They're trying to build the tension and they're just sitting there and I'm going, mm-hmm. 387 00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:37.079 It looks like a particularly dull double period after lunch, doesn't it? 388 00:30:37.140 --> 00:30:38.640 Yes, yes, Nathan. 389 00:30:38.759 --> 00:30:46.859 Did you notice how the kids' headphones all miraculously come off their heads when Mickey pulls the plug? 390 00:30:46.920 --> 00:30:48.000 Brilliant. 391 00:30:55.559 --> 00:31:00.059 We might move on to the other big component of this episode, which is K9. 392 00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:02.220 I would love to talk about K9. 393 00:31:02.519 --> 00:31:17.819 This is, again, another reason why I cry or every time I watch this episode, it's obviously the bringing back of the nostalgic element from my childhood, but also just the fate and that loyalty of canine is something that just will never fail to tear me up. 394 00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:28.380 And it kind of stems from an old childhood memory that I have, the, there's 2 myths in the ancient Greek, you know, literature and myth that always, always bring me to tears. 395 00:31:28.440 --> 00:31:39.900 Once Orpheus and Eurydice, but the other comes from the Odyssey, and it's the story of Argos, which is Odysseus's loyal hound, who, after 20 years waiting for his loyal master to come home. 396 00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:46.619 Just holds on to dear life until he can see Odysseus one more time and at that point he finally gives in to death. 397 00:31:46.680 --> 00:31:48.660 And that, oh, my God. 398 00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:52.380 He's so wretched and so flea bitten at the time too. 399 00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:55.500 Like, it's heartbreaking, absolutely heartbreaking. 400 00:31:55.559 --> 00:31:58.259 And which is exactly how we see canine as well. 401 00:31:58.319 --> 00:32:00.720 I mean, we see canine and he's rusted up. 402 00:32:00.779 --> 00:32:02.819 He looks a bit disco as the rose. 403 00:32:02.940 --> 00:32:10.019 He looks, you know, he really reminds me of Argos, and I'm starting to tear up here, so I should stop. 404 00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:21.480 But just that sacrifice at the end, it is meant to be a little bit throwaway, I guess, you know, you know, Anthony has that incredible line, forget the shooty dog thing. 405 00:32:21.960 --> 00:32:26.700 But it's a show of unbelievable loyalty. 406 00:32:26.759 --> 00:32:31.799 I love the bit where he says bad dog and canine counters with affirmative. 407 00:32:31.859 --> 00:32:34.079 I just think it's so wonderful. 408 00:32:34.140 --> 00:32:35.940 He gets to sass the villain. 409 00:32:36.359 --> 00:32:48.059 It's Sarah's reaction that sells it, you know, because the doctor drags her out of the exploding building and she's in tears and she really, really sells it. 410 00:32:48.119 --> 00:32:57.299 I remember a time where I thought, you know, that sort of very presentational style of acting that you did in Doctor Who in the 70s, that Doctor Who acting, which Sarah was really big on. 411 00:32:57.359 --> 00:33:01.440 And it was kind of like, how is that going to fit into modern television? 412 00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:02.940 But she's so great. 413 00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:05.099 She's so great in this. 414 00:33:05.339 --> 00:33:09.480 And when she does, you know, it was just a daft metal dog and she's crying and the doctor's holding her. 415 00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:10.319 It's wonderful. 416 00:33:10.380 --> 00:33:13.799 She really, really sells that. as you've just said. 417 00:33:13.859 --> 00:33:24.420 And Stephen, I've never knew about the story that you've just told, but it certainly, I was tearing up, thinking about that, relating it to K9 for the 1st time ever. 418 00:33:24.539 --> 00:33:27.000 So maybe this is when I go back and watch this next time. 419 00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:29.759 I'll be in tears all the way through. 420 00:33:30.539 --> 00:33:32.339 You've broken him. 421 00:33:32.460 --> 00:33:36.480 My my cold stone heart is suddenly, you know. 422 00:33:36.539 --> 00:33:37.559 So scoring. 423 00:33:38.039 --> 00:33:39.900 But you're right. 424 00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:43.980 Elizabeth sells the destruction of canine and the loss of that. 425 00:33:44.039 --> 00:33:50.220 But she also sells it when the TARDIS dematerialises and there he is. 426 00:33:50.339 --> 00:33:55.920 And she kneels down to him and talks about, like, he replaces you with a new model. 427 00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:57.720 And you can see the tears in her eyes. 428 00:33:57.839 --> 00:34:00.960 And at that point, I'm holding holding back tears. 429 00:34:01.019 --> 00:34:05.759 She has so many moments in this story that she sells those moments she sells really, really well. 430 00:34:05.819 --> 00:34:10.619 There's one moment I don't think she sells at all, which is when she 1st sees the TARDIS, she just looks like. 431 00:34:10.619 --> 00:34:12.420 She's been stunned with a taser. 432 00:34:12.539 --> 00:34:14.099 Oh, I love that. 433 00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:14.820 I love that. 434 00:34:14.880 --> 00:34:16.199 I just don't think she sells it. 435 00:34:16.260 --> 00:34:26.760 Normally, I would expect Sarah Jane to sort of look and then make a reaction, but it's just they've cut to this point where she's already got the reaction and every time I watch it, I just go, that's a direct draw fault. 436 00:34:26.820 --> 00:34:27.599 I don't like that shot. 437 00:34:27.659 --> 00:34:28.199 Right. 438 00:34:28.199 --> 00:34:30.960 But Elizabeth just warms up so quickly. 439 00:34:31.019 --> 00:34:33.000 Like, it's like she's hardly been away at all. 440 00:34:33.059 --> 00:34:47.159 Well, in fact, I think that that scene that you mentioned where she says he replaces you with a new model is actually that's actually her properly accepting that he's left and met someone new. 441 00:34:47.219 --> 00:34:55.320 You know, you get a bit of that in the Tartars afterwards, you know, at the very end where she kind of invites Mickey to join them. 442 00:34:56.340 --> 00:35:02.639 But there's a little smile, a little kind of rueful smile on the words, you know, he'll do that. 443 00:35:02.699 --> 00:35:06.960 He will replace you with a new model, which I think is really very nice. 444 00:35:07.079 --> 00:35:13.619 And of course, then her final lines are actually a reference to survival. 445 00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:14.340 Yes. 446 00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:15.300 What does she say? 447 00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:17.760 Come on, we've got work to do. 448 00:35:18.840 --> 00:35:21.119 So that's her becoming the doctor. 449 00:35:21.179 --> 00:35:22.139 Yeah. 450 00:35:22.199 --> 00:35:22.920 It really is. 451 00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:23.699 It's going to be Russell. 452 00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:24.539 Yeah. 453 00:35:24.599 --> 00:35:27.900 So would you like to hear some working titles for this story? 454 00:35:28.019 --> 00:35:28.800 Yes. 455 00:35:28.980 --> 00:35:34.320 So one of them, which is kind of obvious, was old friends. 456 00:35:34.380 --> 00:35:35.400 Oh yeah. 457 00:35:35.460 --> 00:35:37.860 And the other one was Black Ops. 458 00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:39.179 Oh dear. 459 00:35:39.239 --> 00:35:43.260 Obviously a hangover from when it was set in an army pain. 460 00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:46.619 Don't you think it should be Old Friends of Death? 461 00:35:46.980 --> 00:35:48.960 With the sting. 462 00:35:49.019 --> 00:35:52.019 I think it should be called the Kryletane conundrum. 463 00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:54.179 Ah, the Krylic. 464 00:35:54.179 --> 00:35:57.480 Everything with a K? 465 00:36:00.539 --> 00:36:07.679 I do need to say that Torchwood is also seen on screen, Torchwood access denied files just... 466 00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:08.039 Oh, really? 467 00:36:08.099 --> 00:36:12.420 Yeah, yeah, when Mickey tries to access something early on when he's talking to them. 468 00:36:12.480 --> 00:36:17.880 Oh, so maybe Torch would have got in and changed the doctor's buffalo password. 469 00:36:17.940 --> 00:36:22.260 Well, I think this is the Bad Wolf of series 2, right? 470 00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:29.880 So we have continual references, which started in the last episode in Tooth and Claw to Torchwood, which will pay off in the last episode, spoilers. 471 00:36:29.940 --> 00:36:35.639 And I think that's why it's occurred or showed up on screen just in the background there when Mickey is trying to hack the files. 472 00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:36.960 Yes, yes. 473 00:36:37.019 --> 00:36:37.679 No I agree with you. 474 00:36:37.739 --> 00:36:50.099 Like, I'm just mentioning that, you know, Torchwood is mentioned just in case in future podcast episodes that I'm not in, that the team will remember to tell us if Torchwood is mentioned or not. 475 00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:51.960 I'm sure it won't come up again. 476 00:36:59.219 --> 00:37:11.280 Todd said that this was his least favourite season of the RTD era, but I think famously, Stephen, you think rather differently about it. 477 00:37:11.340 --> 00:37:17.880 It's actually my favourite of all of new who, and it's at this point that I'll start cowering from the abuse that I'll get for saying that. 478 00:37:19.139 --> 00:37:25.860 I'm not commenting What is it that you like about it? 479 00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:33.000 There's 2 reasons or main reasons why I think it is the best series and series of the new series. 480 00:37:33.059 --> 00:37:42.119 First is there's a sort of personal aspect to it as well, and it's deeply personal, but the more important is that this is what Doctor Who is in the public imagination. 481 00:37:42.179 --> 00:37:43.139 It is David Tennant. 482 00:37:43.199 --> 00:37:44.099 It is Billy Piper. 483 00:37:44.159 --> 00:37:49.920 We have a number of stories, I guess, that are still remembered fondly by the general public. 484 00:37:49.980 --> 00:37:55.679 It's kind of like the city of death or season 17 of Doctor Who for the not we. 485 00:37:55.739 --> 00:38:08.699 Um, you know, when most people are watching or a lot of people at least are watching, but it's when Doctor Who penetrate the uh, sort of postmodern post 2000 public consciousness and it sort of really gets a grip of it and never lets go. 486 00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:13.920 And even now, you know, you talk about Doctor Who with your colleagues who are not Doctor Who fans. 487 00:38:13.980 --> 00:38:15.360 And they'll talk about David Tennant. 488 00:38:15.420 --> 00:38:16.619 They'll talk about Billy Piper. 489 00:38:16.679 --> 00:38:21.300 This is the golden age of new who for me, and I think for many others who are not Doctor Who fans. 490 00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:24.000 I would tend to agree with you on that, Stephen. 491 00:38:24.059 --> 00:38:28.079 I think if you talk to any of your not wee friends. 492 00:38:28.139 --> 00:38:29.940 Yeah, have not we friends? 493 00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:32.159 There are only 2 doctors. 494 00:38:32.219 --> 00:38:34.559 There's there's David Tennant. 495 00:38:34.619 --> 00:38:35.340 Tom Baker. 496 00:38:35.400 --> 00:38:36.059 Yeah, that's it. 497 00:38:36.059 --> 00:38:37.440 And they always top the polls. 498 00:38:37.500 --> 00:38:41.639 Like in all of those, what, like the you gov poll? 499 00:38:41.699 --> 00:38:44.699 No, actually, Tom was quite low down, wasn't he? 500 00:38:44.820 --> 00:38:46.079 I think it was third. 501 00:38:46.139 --> 00:38:54.719 But they make that imprint and it does, possibly to the detriment of the, of the program going on. 502 00:38:54.840 --> 00:38:58.440 It overwhelms what people expect it to be. 503 00:38:58.500 --> 00:39:01.079 And when it doesn't fit that mould. 504 00:39:01.260 --> 00:39:03.420 Say Peter Capaldi. 505 00:39:03.659 --> 00:39:08.699 It actually creates a lot of sort of tension and anxiety. 506 00:39:08.820 --> 00:39:11.039 Yes, yes, you're absolutely right. 507 00:39:11.099 --> 00:39:16.679 I mean, you think about the doctor's played by a handsome young lead for the 1st time, I think, in David Tennant. 508 00:39:16.739 --> 00:39:21.599 Billy Piper is, oh, amazing, and obviously looks the part as well. 509 00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:34.800 It is the definition of that relationship of that sort of dynamic between the new modern young doctor and the new, you know, up to date, very sort of contemporary companion as well, and they're both incredibly attractive. 510 00:39:34.860 --> 00:39:36.179 So that doesn't hurt either. 511 00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:37.679 Bright young things. 512 00:39:37.739 --> 00:39:38.639 Yeah exactly. 513 00:39:38.760 --> 00:39:42.300 And the family audience is tuning in. 514 00:39:42.360 --> 00:39:54.000 It's very much, well, as Nathan has pointed out, RTD is a big fan of the 3rd doctor and Joe, and it's the same sort of thing that happened back in season 8, where suddenly the show's ratings went up. 515 00:39:54.059 --> 00:39:55.619 Excellent point. 516 00:39:55.619 --> 00:40:00.480 Because people knew what they were tuning into and their expectations of getting this. 517 00:40:00.539 --> 00:40:06.840 Well, back then, you know, a family show with regular characters and situations like invasion. 518 00:40:06.900 --> 00:40:13.139 So there was a familiarity and a comfort and here they've got these likeable leads. 519 00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:20.400 They've got the stuff that people liked from the 1st series and they're tuning in and this is their expectation of Doctor Who has been met. 520 00:40:20.519 --> 00:40:22.079 But that's okay. 521 00:40:22.139 --> 00:40:23.579 I think Doctor Who can do that. 522 00:40:23.639 --> 00:40:33.059 And, you know, here most explicitly in series 2, Doctor Who does a love story, and I think if there's any kind of genre that will get the uncommitted audience to watch, it will definitely be that. 523 00:40:33.119 --> 00:40:35.760 And it doesn't mean that the show is broken forever. 524 00:40:35.820 --> 00:40:38.159 It just means that the show does something different for a little while. 525 00:40:38.219 --> 00:40:43.199 So, you know, with the sex doctor, Colin Baker's doctor, we have the doctor and the exploration of violence. 526 00:40:43.260 --> 00:40:54.659 I don't know how intentional it is sometimes, but that's very much a theme and that's what's explored the relationship between, you know, violence as, I guess, a preoccupation of 80s television and where Doctor Who fits into that. 527 00:40:54.719 --> 00:41:04.739 It moves into, you know, McCoy's representation of the doctor being, you know, much more of a schemer and manipulator, and that's something that maybe we don't see again, and we certainly didn't see before. 528 00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:10.860 The ninth doctor clearly has PTSD and we sort of work through that season using that as a theme. 529 00:41:10.920 --> 00:41:11.519 Here. 530 00:41:11.579 --> 00:41:15.059 It is the love story and I actually buy into it. 531 00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:15.599 I love it. 532 00:41:15.659 --> 00:41:30.780 There's personal reasons for it as well, but I actually think, again, to go back to my main point, people who are not fans will watch this and also, yep, this is resonating, this is relatable, this isn't about space corridors and, you know, Zog monsters from the planet Zog. 533 00:41:30.840 --> 00:41:36.360 It's about, you know, a love story between 2 people who are, you know, rather fun to watch. 534 00:41:36.420 --> 00:41:43.920 And that's why series 2 is such a success, I believe, beyond fandom. not so much within fandom. 535 00:41:43.980 --> 00:41:50.280 And I am more than happy to accept that as part of that long, rich tradition and tapestry of Doctor Who. 536 00:41:50.340 --> 00:41:58.019 It's got to be different and new it at each and I think this is what the new doctor and particularly in series 2 with Billy Piper delivers. 537 00:41:58.139 --> 00:41:59.940 It's that romantic lead. 538 00:42:00.179 --> 00:42:16.260 I think too, on top of that, and on top of the fact that the 2 leads are just having a great deal of fun, I think that this is the 1st season that goes out after they've seen the reaction to a previous season and after they've tried to make a season. 539 00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:27.179 And I think, for instance, they do a better job with the arc, um, I think that they have a clear idea of what their regular cast is capable of. 540 00:42:27.239 --> 00:42:35.760 They know how much Doctor Whoness, the regular audience is going to tolerate, you know, hence this episode. 541 00:42:35.880 --> 00:42:40.860 And so it has some advantages over the 1st series, I think. 542 00:42:40.920 --> 00:42:45.119 The 1st series had the advantage of, you know, it's, I think I said this last week. 543 00:42:45.179 --> 00:42:49.980 It's the stories that all of the writers have been gestating for like 15, 16 years. 544 00:42:50.039 --> 00:42:51.000 Very true. 545 00:42:51.059 --> 00:42:55.559 But this has the advantage of, you know, our 2nd go at it. 546 00:42:55.679 --> 00:43:00.179 Russell had actually pitched this to the BBC. 547 00:43:00.179 --> 00:43:10.019 When Jane Tranter approached him in 2003, one of the things he pitched, had it got a 2nd season was then will bring back Sarah Jean and canine. 548 00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:20.039 It was one of his pictures and possibly something she actually hooked onto because she could see he was looking forward that further than series one. 549 00:43:20.099 --> 00:43:22.260 And it might not have happened. 550 00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:46.860 Liz famously has said that she said no, initially, because she was worried she was just going to be a throwaway kind of reference to the past cameo character in the story and when she read the script and realised how much Russell loved her character and what a good job Toby had done with that. 551 00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:50.219 That's when she agreed to come back. 552 00:43:50.280 --> 00:43:51.840 That's lovely. 553 00:43:51.900 --> 00:43:53.219 He was beautiful. 554 00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:56.159 That, that, that is making me voice. 555 00:44:00.360 --> 00:44:05.940 So let's just talk about the plot. 556 00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:08.460 What the Acryletine's grand plan. 557 00:44:08.519 --> 00:44:10.380 Yeah, the Krylitain's grand plan. 558 00:44:10.440 --> 00:44:22.139 So we're feeding Crillitain oil, explosive Crillitain oil to the children, we've infiltrated a school disguise as dinner ladies, and what's our plan, Todd? 559 00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:23.219 What are we trying to achieve here? 560 00:44:23.820 --> 00:44:25.860 I don't know, Nathan. 561 00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:28.139 No, no, no, I wrote it down, listeners. 562 00:44:28.199 --> 00:44:32.340 I wrote it down because I never actually I actually never remembered what it was. 563 00:44:32.400 --> 00:44:36.780 And so that was one of my big bugbears, but they actually did say what it was. 564 00:44:36.840 --> 00:44:39.420 What was, it was given some name, the, the, what? 565 00:44:39.420 --> 00:44:41.760 The scasis, the scasis paradigm. 566 00:44:41.820 --> 00:44:42.539 That's it, yeah. 567 00:44:42.599 --> 00:44:44.519 Actually, I've forgotten what that is again. 568 00:44:44.579 --> 00:44:45.719 Can somebody explain it to me? 569 00:44:45.780 --> 00:44:47.340 Sounds like something from Dark Crystal. 570 00:44:47.400 --> 00:44:49.860 No, changing the building blocks of the universe or something? 571 00:44:49.860 --> 00:44:51.539 It's block transfer computation? 572 00:44:51.599 --> 00:44:52.320 Basically. 573 00:44:52.380 --> 00:44:52.860 That's it. 574 00:44:52.920 --> 00:44:53.400 Yes. 575 00:44:53.460 --> 00:44:56.940 And I was so upset that they didn't use block transfer computations. 576 00:44:57.000 --> 00:44:58.079 They should have called it that. 577 00:44:58.800 --> 00:45:02.099 You know, it is throwaway, as we have said before. 578 00:45:02.159 --> 00:45:05.699 Todd's looking at me as if he can't believe I've even brought it up. 579 00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:07.320 Why are we talking about this stupid? 580 00:45:07.380 --> 00:45:16.500 No, no, no, it's good. because this is one of the bugbears I had, but then it actually got explained this time when I watched the episode as opposed to every other time where it was never explained for some unknown reason. 581 00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:19.800 There's that big confrontation at the end in the computer room. 582 00:45:19.860 --> 00:45:40.320 Um, and it's super, super thin, but there is at least an attempt to bring it into the main themes of the main plot and to even have Sarah tell us what we can learn from their desire to, you know, control reality. 583 00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:47.519 And like he offers it to the doctor and he offers it to Sarah, and she's the one that really tells him, well, no. 584 00:45:47.579 --> 00:45:49.199 Well, remember what the offer is. 585 00:45:49.199 --> 00:46:01.139 The offer is that you could bring back lots of lost races, including the time lords, so you could reverse the one big great personal loss that you've had in your life. 586 00:46:01.199 --> 00:46:17.639 And Sarah could reverse, you know, the ageing and her loss of the doctor and all of that sort of disappointment of the past few years and she's the one who encourages the doctor to accept that and not to try and get around it, but that's part of what living is. 587 00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:19.380 Yeah, pain and loss to finest. 588 00:46:19.440 --> 00:46:21.480 Everything has its time and everything ends. 589 00:46:21.539 --> 00:46:22.019 Yeah. 590 00:46:22.079 --> 00:46:23.579 I love that. 591 00:46:23.639 --> 00:46:32.400 So, I mean, the way that I see it is that I'm not sure if it sort of comes across 100% in David Tennant's performance, but the doctor is meant to be utterly lured by this. 592 00:46:32.460 --> 00:46:40.440 It's, you know, Lucifer and tempting Christ in the desert for 40 days or nights and he's having this moment where it's like, I could, I could undo all of that. 593 00:46:40.500 --> 00:46:45.480 But it's his, um, Okay, I need to stop because I'm tearing up. 594 00:46:45.539 --> 00:46:53.519 Um, But it's his friends, it's his companions who who get who bring the better out of him and remind him that actually that's not the way. 595 00:46:53.579 --> 00:47:03.900 You aren't the lonely god and you never have been because you've always got us and, you know, that speech that Sarah gives about pain and loss defining us that you just mentioned, Todd, is glorious. 596 00:47:03.960 --> 00:47:06.480 And that's what snaps the doctor back out of it. 597 00:47:06.599 --> 00:47:09.840 I think it's a beautiful way to tie both of those plots together. 598 00:47:15.900 --> 00:47:18.300 I've really enjoy discussing this with you all. 599 00:47:18.360 --> 00:47:23.579 I think I'm going to be much more emotional the next time I actually watch this. 600 00:47:23.639 --> 00:47:27.900 It's actually going to pull up my heartstrings, all the stuff with Sarah and K9. 601 00:47:28.079 --> 00:47:39.000 It already does, but I think I'm going to need a box of tissues right next to me because I, you guys, one of the joys about doing this podcast is the fact that I come in with certain opinions. 602 00:47:39.119 --> 00:47:45.840 Put them all out on the table and then you all come back with different opinions and it changes, it changes me. 603 00:47:45.900 --> 00:47:48.539 And so, um, thank you. 604 00:47:48.599 --> 00:47:50.400 And that's and I think that's what's going to happen. 605 00:47:50.579 --> 00:47:58.320 That's how I feel about this, and this episode is so much better. already in my rewatch. 606 00:47:58.380 --> 00:48:00.179 So good grief, it could go up even more. 607 00:48:00.300 --> 00:48:01.860 Season 2 is rising. 608 00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:04.260 Series 2 is rising, looking. 609 00:48:04.320 --> 00:48:06.840 And it's just a joy to watch Elizabeth Slayton on screen. 610 00:48:06.900 --> 00:48:08.579 I mean, that's the biggest thing from this episode. 611 00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:19.920 I'm so thrilled to hear that, Todd, because in some way that goes to maybe thank you and return the favour in the way that you've helped me to sort of reevaluate the Colin Baker era. 612 00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:24.840 And it was really your views and arguments on FTE that made me sort of stop and think to do that. 613 00:48:24.900 --> 00:48:30.840 So if I'm able in some way to redeem series 2 in your eyes, then I'm a very happy man. 614 00:48:57.900 --> 00:49:06.960 Welder listener, that exploding school sounds like the end of the episode, so let's head off into the future to give a promising young writer the chance to see what he's capable of. 615 00:49:07.019 --> 00:49:10.079 We'll see you next week for the girl in the fireplace. 616 00:49:10.199 --> 00:49:18.960 In the meantime, you can find us at FlightthroughEntirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at FT podcast on Twitter. 617 00:49:19.019 --> 00:49:30.000 You can also find us at our Series 11 Flashcast, Jody Interterterra, which is at Jody Interterra.com, Jody Interterra on Apple Podcasts, and at Jody Interterra on Twitter. 618 00:49:30.059 --> 00:49:39.599 And finally, we can also be heard on Bondfinger, our commentary podcast on the James Bond franchise and an increasingly irrelevant array of other spy films. 619 00:49:39.900 --> 00:49:45.539 You can find that at Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and Apple Podcasts, and at Bondfingercast on Twitter. 620 00:49:45.599 --> 00:49:47.760 Stephen, where can people find you? 621 00:49:47.820 --> 00:49:53.280 You can find me on the new to who podcast on Twitter at new to who podcast and on Facebook. 622 00:49:53.340 --> 00:49:54.780 Please check us out. 623 00:49:54.840 --> 00:50:00.900 Until next time, may your systems be improved with new undetectable hyperlink facilities. 624 00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:03.179 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 625 00:50:03.239 --> 00:50:04.320 See you soon. 626 00:50:04.380 --> 00:50:05.639 Ta-ta. 627 00:50:05.699 --> 00:50:06.599 Be seeing you. 628 00:50:09.659 --> 00:50:14.880 That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd B. Will be Nathan Bottomley, Stephen B. and James Hellwood. 629 00:50:14.940 --> 00:50:18.300 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings Performance by Jane Orberg. 630 00:50:18.360 --> 00:50:24.539 This episode, his little fanboy Hart, was recorded on the 26th of January 2019 and released on the 31st of March. 631 00:50:29.099 --> 00:50:40.320 Although we all enjoyed the opening scene of school reunion here at FTE, we would like to assure you that we do not approve of the eating of small orphan children, except in cases of moderate to extreme hunger. 632 00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:53.940 I was just thinking maybe, maybe the um, episode title for this, for this, um, story should be moistening up to an electric dog or two. 633 00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:55.559 We're not doing. 634 00:50:55.559 --> 00:50:58.559 Sorry. 635 00:50:58.619 --> 00:51:00.840 Yes, keep apologising. 636 00:51:03.900 --> 00:51:04.980 That's appalling. 637 00:51:05.039 --> 00:51:05.940 I'm sorry listeners. 638 00:51:07.440 --> 00:51:09.900 This episode will never end. 639 00:51:11.579 --> 00:51:15.719 Well, there's been at least one in there. 640 00:51:15.780 --> 00:51:16.800 No, that's all right. 641 00:51:16.860 --> 00:51:17.519 We allowed to do that. 642 00:51:17.579 --> 00:51:18.719 We're allowed to sleep. 643 00:51:18.780 --> 00:51:21.780 I've been really avoiding that No, I don't care. 644 00:51:22.320 --> 00:51:23.880 All right. 645 00:51:23.940 --> 00:51:27.599 Are there any, does anyone have a closing statement? 646 00:51:27.900 --> 00:51:31.320 Well, my closing statement is that I... 647 00:51:31.380 --> 00:51:38.940 Don't start with my closing statement because I'm going to start closing. just want you to launch in with it. 648 00:51:39.179 --> 00:51:42.300 I've really enjoyed discussing this with you.