Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety
the only Doctor Who podcast, which really enjoys eating its own
oil, and we're doing it now.
I'm Nathan.
I'm James.
I'm Todd, and I'm Stephen.
It's 29th of April, 2006, and a daft little tea time science
fiction program is about to emotionally devastate a whole
generation of ageing fans.
Kleenex is at the ready, everyone.
It's time for a school reunion.
So, um, Stephen, is this one of the many Doctor Who episodes that
makes you cry?
Yeah, absolutely.
This one reduces me to tears every single time.
I think I probably start crying 15 minutes in, you know, just in
anticipation.
Really?
Well yeah.
Really?
I've got a stone cold dead heart because, you know, I don't cry at
this anymore.
Okay.
You know, let's let's start off with this.
I think the fact that, you know, Liz is gone.
We don't have Liz anymore.
Just seeing her.
Without her knowing who the doctor is, he's trying to make you
cry.
I'm trying to make time cry.
Yes, listeners, they're looking to react me.
So yeah, so just for the 1st time that we see her.
I just think about how wonderful she was.
God, you fools.
I'm tearing up as we speak.
Okay.
I well up from like the moment she comes on screen.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I don't.
It's always the end bit with that my Sarah goodbye, my Sarah Jane
with the music, you know, that's where it gets me.
But up to that point.
The 1st time, obviously, when we 1st saw this, yes.
Yeah, you know, it was like, oh, all the way through, but now I'm
sort of, yeah, yeah.
But I can't distinguish it from my childhood memories of watching
Sarah Jane Smith and the 4th doctor.
So that's what's immediately brought to mind.
And I think that's probably intentionally in terms of the story
too, but I just sort of get cast back to that.
And there's a shedding of a tear, I guess, for the time in
between.
And obviously what's happened in the meantime as well.
She was my 1st companion.
Like I've said before, that my 1st Doctor Who story was Death to
the Daleks.
And really the only 2 possible people that they could have brought
back would have been Joe and Sarah.
And both of them are on the show for roughly the same time.
You know, Sarah's there for a bit longer, but both of them are the
ones that create that female companion dynamic that the new show
is doing.
Yes, I was thinking about this the other day.
I was thinking, who else could they have brought back if they
couldn't have got Elizabeth Slayton?
And like you, I thought, you know, Katie Manning as Joe. And I
just kind of went through everybody else and I thought, who else
is there?
I mean, the only other person I really thought of was Tegan, but I
don't think that character would have worked in this context, it
would have to be a completely different type of story.
Yeah, you couldn't sell a story where Tegan was kind of the
doctor's ex-girlfriend in any way.
No not at all.
It would have been a very rocky relationship.
But also I think it's quite incredible too, the fact that David
Tennant is like 3 episodes into his reign as the doctor.
And suddenly here, you know, he's with this ex-companion.
Like, I was thinking, like, if Eccleston had continued on, how
would this have played out, you know?
Would it be just the same thing?
Like it's, you know, he's a bit older than Tenant, you know?
and certainly more the age that Tom was when he was 1st the doctor
with Sarah Jane?
I don't think it would have had as much emotional depth and
chemistry.
Tenet?
Yeah.
I mean, Tenant, it's a huge fan.
And that's obvious from his performance and the way he just smiles
at her, you know, when she 1st turns up.
I love the fact that she's just walking down some stairs talking
to the headmaster.
It's all quite subtle.
New fans wouldn't have a clue who she is.
And so she's just another character.
For me, it's like I always think about what would new fans be
thinking about having this old companion in?
Would they get as emotional as what we get?
Would they be moved at all?
I think, though, for new fans, it does shed a light on the
relationship between the doctor and Rose and the next episode's
going to do that as well.
Like it's going to start to interrogate that relationship because
this is really the height of their relationship this season, isn't
it?
And, you know, last week we had them larking about and laughing
and, you know, running hand in hand and all of that sort of
thing.
Like they were very, very close.
And this kind of interrogates that or puts it in quite a different
line.
I think that's true, but also from an outsider's point of view, if
you're not a YooHoo fan, if you're someone who maybe grew up
watching Doctor Who decades ago, this sort of like taps into that
childhood memory.
And of course, you're going to remember Sarah Jane.
I think, you know, it's one of the most iconic pairings of classic
Doctor Who, along with Katie and John as well.
And I think you're right, Todd, I don't think you can sort of pair
it with any other old companion because there probably wasn't the
connection, I guess.
There's certainly pros in the ratings.
You know, we're talking about the Hyder Doctor Who in this sort of
mid 70s period.
So it had to be, had to be Elizabeth Slayden.
Both of these companions also investigate things, you know?
Joe was with unit investigating, Sarah was investigative
journalist.
Whereas when you look at the background of so many others, they're
not the same thing, you know, they don't gives you an in.
Yeah, it gives you an in.
I think also, I mean, I agree with you, Stephen, the, um, she's
the right choice because she doesn't have an appeal just for a
classic series fan.
She has an appeal for a viewer of the 70s.
Like she appeals to the general audience of the 70s.
If you're going to remember a companion, you're going to remember
Sarah James Smith.
She is the Doctor Who companion.
I think for Russell, probably the iconic pairing is the doctor and
Joe. And I think it's telling that he cast Billy Piper, who looks
a bit like Joe and uses the pertweet title sequence, you know, sort
of revamped as his title sequence.
I think that that's his pairing.
And given that he's a little bit older, like he's got a few years
on me, a couple of years on me.
The show.
Yeah.
But it's very clear that when Russell was watching the show, he
was imagining that he was Katie or he was Sarah.
Like that was who he was identifying with, I think.
Not in drag.
No.
I love all the intro stuff when they mention like John Smith
like...
Yeah, she says I used to have a friend who went by that name.
It's so beautiful.
Just the sheer enthusiasm on tenant's face when he sees her.
It seems so real.
I'll have lots of complaints about David Tennant's performance.
But when he's genuine, when he's showing real emotion, and we'll
talk more about that next week, probably.
He's wonderful.
He's so great.
His little fanboy heart is exploding.
Did you know this script was written in a really short time
right?
So this is Toby Widhouse's 1st episode, but he wasn't the original
writer for the story.
Okay.
Initially, much like we discussed last week on Tooth and Claw
Russell got a writer who was new to the show to write a script
treatment for it with the shopping list, set in in a school, Sarah
Jane Smith, K9.
And the writer went to Ray and came back with a script set in an
army base.
And it didn't really gel.
And then they admitted that Doctor Who probably wasn't for them
and bowed out.
And so Toby was asked to write this sort of very late stage and
was delivered very quickly, but it's still kind of brilliant.
Yeah, I think it's great It absolutely is because I don't think
the plot really matters here.
It's the emotional heartbeats of the story that are the most
important.
For me, and I think for most other viewers as well.
And I've said this before, I think, but for me, I don't really
care about the bliz-bloss pop mechanics and how it all sort of
makes sense as long as it has that emotional reward and payoff.
And having Sarah Jane Smith meet the doctor again is like that's
it as a sentence.
That's all you need for a Doctor Who episode to work.
Who cares about the plot?
Exactly.
No, I'm very much in agreement with you on that.
I think I've always enjoyed storytelling, not just Doctor Who
storytelling in general, which I feel an emotional connection or
resonance with.
And that's probably why I still, you know, 10, 15 years later
enjoy Russell's Doctor Who more than anything that's come after
it.
I actually think it does a really deaf job of balancing the
demands of being a Doctor Who episode with that emotional plot.
And, you know, sometimes they think it would be nice to have a
break from aliens and silly things and just do an episode like
this without the subplot.
And sometimes you have episodes like this with a very rudimentary
subplot, like Boomtown or Power of 3.
But this one, I think, gets it right.
So you're talking about the acrylic.
Yeah.
Subplot.
Yeah.
It's interesting because I always felt that that was the weakest
part of this story.
And I've never considered this story better than a 7 out of 10
which might shock some people.
But coming back and watching this season, which I think I've
commented already that this is my least favourite of the 1st 5
years of Doctor Who.
It's quite interesting because I actually liked this more.
And the Critain was the weakness in this story.
But like I've previously commented how I sort of edit out things
in my head and can't remember things, there was certainly a lot
more dialogue that I suddenly wasn't remembering going, okay, so
they actually do explain this.
So I actually enjoyed that a lot more.
So actually this has gone up from a 7 to an 8 for me.
I think Anthony Stewart head is just delicious in his role as the
headmaster.
I mean, you know, that 1st sequence where he takes that girl into
that room and then eats devours her.
I'm like, remember, because you're going, 0 my goodness.
The little orphan girl.
Oh, the little orphan girl.
No one to miss you.
I mean, the Krillatain, like, you know, they don't really care
very much to keep everything sort of hush hush.
I mean, Kenny walks in and looks down and like that one
teacher...
Under the desk and then he's not.
It's sort of like we'll just go away.
Like, it's like, you could have eaten him at this point.
And then that exploding woman, like she does that, you know?
Like, it's so funny.
It is so funny, but it's sort of like, well, we're not really
hushing it up and we're not going to do away with you, Rose.
We're just going to say, oh, no, don't ring the Amos.
She just does that, you know?
It's so paper thin.
Is that what I mean?
But it makes it hilarious.
Well, I think Kenny as well. who is the little kid who isn't
eating the krillitain oil because he can't eat chips because he's
on a special diet.
Like you would think that he would be the 1st one that they would
eat, you know, so that is that Russell Fatt shaming?
constantly fat shaming, Russell.
There were things like that.
But I mean, then you've got the counterbalance, which is the big
confrontation between the doctor and the headmaster, the swimming
pool.
And again, that's just fantastic.
And I love the fact that, again, David Tennant's doctor talks
about, you've got one chance.
And yeah, and Anthony Stewart had just, if it wasn't for him, I
think that plot possibly would not hang together as, there
wouldn't be as much gravitas to it.
I always thought that he would have been a great doctor back in
the day.
Like, you know, when he was on Buffy.
I always thought he would be perfect as the doctor. did audition
for the TV movie.
Oh did he?
Everyone did, though.
Well, he had said everybody, too.
Including Beryl Reed.
She would have been amazing.
Winter's actually on the DVD.
Oh really?
Yeah, I think so.
He's certainly having fun doing scenery chewing and being terribly
camp and stuff.
But it works.
And I also think the Krillitain actually worked.
They look very cartoonish, but I actually really like them.
Oh, I do too.
I think there's one shot of one flying in front of the moon, which
I think is spectacular.
And there's one where they're running down the corridors and the
camera is kind of trying to keep up with them.
You know, they're running down the corridors and they're moving
from floor to ceiling and the camera's going around in a sort of
circular motion, but it's tracking them.
It's just behind them.
It's good.
Yeah, so for me, that's the aspect of the episode that really did
improve on this watch, which I was really pleased about.
I was never down on it in the 1st place, but what I, what I will
admit is that it is absolutely the subplot, and it's also a
subplot that maybe comes from young adult, or certainly rolled
dark kind of schoolyard, fairy tale, um, genre.
You know, it felt like the witches in many regards.
You know, you have that kind of fairy tale aspect that we see
throughout Doctor Who, but most explicitly here.
This is something that should not exist or probably oughtn't exist
in sort of like the general kind of mood of a Doctor Who story, but
it does, and it's great, and it kind of feels like a kid's fairy
tale.
And again, because that's the subplot.
The real plot is about Sarah J.
Smith and the way in which the doctor companion relationship is
defined and redefined. particularly for a newhu era.
You're totally right about redefining everything's been redefined
here.
The relationship between Rose and a doctor is put under a
spotlight because of Sarah Jane Smith, like the missus and the
ex.
Yes.
And then working Mickey into the mix and his realisation of who he
is and what he wants and redefining all that.
I mean, you know, throughout the episode, realising like he's the
tin dog, he doesn't want to be the tin dog, and then at the end
you know, can I come on board?
And the face that rose.
Yeah.
She's such a surly little cow.
You know, he wasn't actually in the original draft of the script.
He wasn't in it at all.
Oh, really?
He was a late edition.
I think he's brilliant in this.
And I think it does give closure to that plot. about him being
reluctant to come with a doctor.
So he's not invited in Rose.
He tells the doctor that he can't bear to go with him at the end
of World War 3 and now finally he sort of proved himself by doing
his rescue mission and helping Rose and the doctor here.
And he decides, yeah, you know, like I'm ready to go with you.
There's so much growth in this episode for him, from finding all
the dead rats, rats, and then looking at the acryletane on the, on
the roof and running out of the school and and, you know, being
perhaps part of the character that was in season one.
And then, you know, pulling the plug at the end, you know, forming
a bond with canine or, you know, stepping up and then realising
that he can step up.
And I think over the course of this episode and the next two
Noel's performance is as good as ever.
Like it really, it really shows such a growth to his character and
really puts a spotlight on the character, I think, of Rose and
perhaps the growth that she doesn't actually have compared to
him.
Although it does give Rose different things to do, you know, like
I think that it helps Rose in that sense, even if it sort of
brings up how kind of self-involved chicken bee.
But there is a memo where she's not self-involved.
And this is one of my niggles with his episode is how quickly
Sarah arcs up at Rose.
Like, literally straight away, she is a bitch to her.
And I really hate it.
Like, I really hate, the 1st line, like the way in which the
character delivers whatever, the hello or whatever she says to
her.
Well, there's something about, oh, I can tell you're getting
older.
Your companions are getting younger.
And it's just like getting younger.
Yeah.
I'm not an assistant.
And it's like, well, thanks for that, Sarah.
But Sarah is always very prickly, fair enough.
But then we have to have this conflict between them, which is all
then just solved over a big name calling thing and lots of
laughter that seems to go on far too long.
And failing the Bechdel test at the same time, like it really
really ostentatiously failing to do the Bechdel test.
I mean, Sarah is just jealous and so they're fighting over a man.
So do you know how they got that laughter?
No.
Tenant walked in with a false moustache on. which is why Billy
kind of points at him as she's cracking up.
Brilliant.
It's great.
The laughter's great.
That's a great sequence But what's really good is that when Sarah
mentions the Loch Ness Monster, It's rose that diffuses that
entire situation and begins to laugh.
She could continue on being escalating that argument, but she
doesn't.
And it's a really great moment for her.
So it's just a little thing in the episode that it drags it down a
little bit for me.
It's just a niggle that I kind of go, really, do we have to have
this artificial, I can see why, why we're going this way and we're
looking at, you know, the relationship between the doctor and why
he leaves companions behind and it's sort of a lot of
foreshadowing for what's going to come in the future.
For Yoohoo fans, I think, anyway, to sort of, well, you need to
think about this, guys.
They're not going to be around forever and why would that be?
It could have been a lot darker, you know.
Apparently in one of the early drafts of the script, Sarah was
written as being a recovering alcoholic.
That wouldn't have worked.
But Liz said no.
Thank God.
Exactly.
It's the wrong tone for Doctor Who.
Yeah, absolutely. too dark, far too dark.
Yeah, but I also think like within the mechanics of the story as
well, you needed to have that scene between Sarah Jane and Rose
not just obviously in terms of the exploration and the definition
and the redefinition of the companion, but in the way in which
like there's 3 really nice pairings in this story.
One of them is Elizabeth Slayton and Billy Piper.
I think Noel Clark, as Mickey and K9 are kind of like the tin dog
if you like.
And then you have David Tennant with that, as you said, Todd
before that incredible scene, with Anthony Head.
So I think in terms of the way in which the story is constructed
as well, there's those lovely 3 pairings that work together too.
I think that argument serves another really important purpose as
well, because we've had past Doctor Who episodes from the classic
series hinted at, and last week we had a reference to Jamie
McCrimon.
But this is the 1st acknowledgement that the classic series
happened. in this continuity.
And so, yeah, you know, they've been very, very careful
particularly in series one, not to make the show into a sort of
train spotting show where you needed a knowledge of 26 seasons.
You know, you needed every Jean-Marc Leficier book and every Peter
Hayning book on your shelves in order to be allowed in to enjoy
this show.
They very, very definitely don't do that.
And here is the 1st time they do it.
And I think it's a renewed confidence after their success last
year.
But I still think it's a little bit of a risk.
And I think it's mitigated a bit by Tenant himself being such a
fan of the show.
I agree with you, Nathan.
I think that, um, like even in his conversation, his his initial
conversation outside the Tartars with Sarah, she goes, you've
regenerated and he goes several times.
There's this acknowledgement of the history of the show without
necessarily getting too bogged down in it.
And by doing the fight sequence with a list of things.
Again, you're doing it in a funny enough way that we're not saying
well, I had an adventure with...
Yeah, I met Bella...
Beast of Aguador, and I met Bellau, and Bellau was my best friend
for 5 minutes.
Like, you know what I'm saying.
And I told him to watch out.
Well, in fact, the thing is that a new fan, particularly a young
new fan is going to enjoy Billy's references to previous
episodes.
So there's something in it for them.
And this is just the ultimate episode for kids to watch with their
parents who remember Doctor Who from the 70s.
It's a way for them to bond over a shared love of this new show.
I think it's really, really well judged, but it's certainly not
something they would have attempted at all in the 1st year.
Which is the right thing. you know, to keep that continuity away.
Talking of which.
Of course, Sarah mentions, you know, I thought you died like when
you left me and like you didn't come back for me.
Like, I found it really interesting because, like, she got K9 and
K9 and Company.
She was in the 5 doctors.
So she knew that the doctor lived.
Yeah.
Like, I know it's a bit of a rewrite, but I'm such an anal
returning fan, sort of like, it really, it's sort of like, well, I
then have to go back and say, well, when you meet a future doctor
and taken out of time, your memory sort of gets sort of muddied
you know, when future doctors meet past doctors, I, when they go
back into their time stream, it doesn't quite happen.
Well, let me change the chronology of the show itself.
But, you know, even when Sarah left the show.
Like I just kind of accepted it as a fan.
Like, you know, that was it and her time is over and she
recognises that and she moves on.
Like I thought she'd moved on, you know?
So to sort of say, you didn't come back to me and I thought you
died.
You know, the fact that she got canine and indicates that he
wasn't dead.
Yeah.
I'm sorry, it's just this is why this is not like a 10 out of 10
for me. these little niggly things that get to me as a hardcore
fan, which I'm sorry, everybody.
You know, I can brush over a lot of things, but, you know, my
absolute love for Sarah Jane Smith and Elizabeth Swaden means that
you've got to get it right.
You got to get it you're going to get 101% right.
I feel you can read it as, you know, she's living the emotions of
what happened to her and she's saying, I thought you died.
Doesn't really matter that she got canine later.
She thought he died.
Yeah.
That's that's all that matters.
It doesn't matter that she then found out that, you know, he left
her a dog.
And then she met, you know, his rather attractive, you know
younger blonder incarnation a few years later because he'd
abandoned her.
I think that he has just chosen to ignore the 5 doctors.
You know, I think that that's what's happened.
And I think that the reason that he's done that is Doctor Who's
attitude to continuity is that it has to be subordinate to the
truth of the story.
And I think you can head cannonet.
I think I thought you died probably means, you know, for the 1st
couple of years, and that still works.
I think it does show up how kind of terrible the 5 doctors is.
Not really because it's doing something else, you know, but, 0 my
god, you know, the doctor meets his granddaughter, what would that
be like?
I don't know, we're not interested.
You know, the doctor and Sarah meets again after all these years
have him like look lasciviously at her across the console room.
It's a bit inappropriate.
No, I take both your points.
Yes, Jamie.
You make a good point about that.
I thought your diet can be just more general rather than at that
particular point in time.
But there could have been a little throwaway line of, you know
then canine turned up, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But it gets in the way of the story.
I think that the weird and the sort of slightly disappointing
thing is, um, that her period of time travelling with the doctor
has had a negative impact on her life that she hasn't been able to
move on that she's on her own.
Like, I'm not saying that being single and, you know, having a
career and doing exciting things is a failure, but she plays it in
this sort of pained way as if it is a bad thing.
And I think that it's important in Doctor Who, and I think Russell
sometimes gets this ride to have the doctor leave his companions
better than when he found them.
It's the campsite rule.
Yeah.
Do you know, I think that's, you know, that line, yeah, the most
difficult thing is coping with what happens or rather what doesn't
happen next.
I think that's another sort of, well, that's how Russell redefines
that relationship between the doctor and the companion.
It is an allegory, although probably even more than an allegory in
this story are of, you know, the X, you know, the one that you
never sort of get over or whatever the case is.
And it's kind of a way that the, to a new audience, I go, I guess
you know, the question of, well, what will happen when Rose leaves
the doctor and, you know, what happens when any companion sort of
leaves the show, that's how it's framed initially.
But I think you're right, and it's much kinder and nicer to sort
of have the companions as we see later on with Russell for the
most part anyway, when they leave, they go on to better things.
And that's only good and right, but you hear that sort of
emotional devastation and heft that comes from seeing what
happened to a character as beloved as Sarah Jane Smith, who was
never able to get on with her life, that's the emotional scarring
that happens to a companion when you leave the doctor and leave
the Tartars. that's one of the reasons why, I guess, I moisten up
if I can quote Dan, about this story.
Both Stephen and yourself, Nathan, have made a really good point.
Perhaps that's why it doesn't sit well with me because I actually
always thought that Sarah would go on to greater and better
things.
So to see this particular take on it that she feels that she
hasn't, perhaps gets to me and I'm going to go, oh, I don't like
that because that's not what I had in my head cannon as to what
would have happened to her.
And I think that the idea is that this meeting fixes that.
Don't you think?
That she goes off, you know, her own series.
So she goes off and has her own series, marries that lovely man
Nigel Havers, which is bound to turn out well.
And I mean, it does lay the ground for an incredibly successful
spinoff.
And that's the other thing that I love about this so much, that
JNT recognised how Sarah would be able to carry a spinoff series
for kids really well.
Here it's a harder sell because she's much older and a bit
pricklier.
But the Sarah Jane Adventures is spectacular.
Like, I just adore it.
And it's wonderful how great she is in it.
You know what I want to say next.
Sorry.
When we're doing the Sarah Jane Adventures, we're not doing the
Sarah Jane Adventures podcast.
Do it myself.
Nathan, that's a really good point.
And again, again, it's sort of to frame it back in terms of the
real world relationship sort of analogy that's been used here.
It's that importance of closure.
How does Sarah Jane move on after decades?
And we see her move on through the Sarah Jane adventures and, you
know, the wonderful life that she has.
It's through that closure that she has to have with the doctor
1st.
And maybe that's just another way that Russell sort of frames it
in terms of the companion being kind of like the X. Yeah, I mean
even when we meet her at the beginning, she's becoming the doctor
isn't she?
She's investigating strange things somewhere.
And that's clearly what she does.
She's doing sort of John Pertwe's doctor's job.
And when we next see her in Sarah Jane Adventures, she'll have the
Sonic Lipstick.
You know, she'll have a supercomputer and a bass.
She'll have her own set, you know, and she has pretty much become
the doctor with her companions and things defending the earth.
And I think it's wonderful.
And I think the show is great.
And one of the things that irritates me about Doctor Who criticism
is when people dismiss a Doctor Who episode, like this one, perhaps
as a Sarah Jane Adventures episode, or that it's too much like
Sarah Jane Adventures.
And I think that's high praise.
Yes, I think that's a good thing.
It's a reason to watch it.
It's a soft pilot, really.
Yes, it does feel like that because one of the sequences I don't
particularly like is all the kids on the computers.
Like this school has so many computers.
Like even my school doesn't have that many computers.
And they just sort of type away at the things doing whatever and
it's all, you know, the graphics come up on the screen and I just
don't, I actually don't buy it for one single 2nd as a computer
sciences teacher.
That's a computer science teacher.
I don't buy it for a 2nd and I just sit there going, this is so
like we've got no budget.
This is like the Sarah Jane Adventures, like not as not as a bad
thing.
But then the director's trying to crossfade and we're trying to
have sweeping music and everything.
They're trying to build the tension and they're just sitting there
and I'm going, mm-hmm.
It looks like a particularly dull double period after lunch
doesn't it?
Yes, yes, Nathan.
Did you notice how the kids' headphones all miraculously come off
their heads when Mickey pulls the plug?
Brilliant.
We might move on to the other big component of this episode, which
is K9.
I would love to talk about K9.
This is, again, another reason why I cry or every time I watch
this episode, it's obviously the bringing back of the nostalgic
element from my childhood, but also just the fate and that loyalty
of canine is something that just will never fail to tear me up.
And it kind of stems from an old childhood memory that I have, the
there's 2 myths in the ancient Greek, you know, literature and
myth that always, always bring me to tears.
Once Orpheus and Eurydice, but the other comes from the Odyssey
and it's the story of Argos, which is Odysseus's loyal hound, who
after 20 years waiting for his loyal master to come home.
Just holds on to dear life until he can see Odysseus one more time
and at that point he finally gives in to death.
And that, oh, my God.
He's so wretched and so flea bitten at the time too.
Like, it's heartbreaking, absolutely heartbreaking.
And which is exactly how we see canine as well.
I mean, we see canine and he's rusted up.
He looks a bit disco as the rose.
He looks, you know, he really reminds me of Argos, and I'm
starting to tear up here, so I should stop.
But just that sacrifice at the end, it is meant to be a little bit
throwaway, I guess, you know, you know, Anthony has that
incredible line, forget the shooty dog thing.
But it's a show of unbelievable loyalty.
I love the bit where he says bad dog and canine counters with
affirmative.
I just think it's so wonderful.
He gets to sass the villain.
It's Sarah's reaction that sells it, you know, because the doctor
drags her out of the exploding building and she's in tears and she
really, really sells it.
I remember a time where I thought, you know, that sort of very
presentational style of acting that you did in Doctor Who in the
70s, that Doctor Who acting, which Sarah was really big on.
And it was kind of like, how is that going to fit into modern
television?
But she's so great.
She's so great in this.
And when she does, you know, it was just a daft metal dog and
she's crying and the doctor's holding her.
It's wonderful.
She really, really sells that. as you've just said.
And Stephen, I've never knew about the story that you've just told
but it certainly, I was tearing up, thinking about that, relating
it to K9 for the 1st time ever.
So maybe this is when I go back and watch this next time.
I'll be in tears all the way through.
You've broken him.
My my cold stone heart is suddenly, you know.
So scoring.
But you're right.
Elizabeth sells the destruction of canine and the loss of that.
But she also sells it when the TARDIS dematerialises and there he
is.
And she kneels down to him and talks about, like, he replaces you
with a new model.
And you can see the tears in her eyes.
And at that point, I'm holding holding back tears.
She has so many moments in this story that she sells those moments
she sells really, really well.
There's one moment I don't think she sells at all, which is when
she 1st sees the TARDIS, she just looks like.
She's been stunned with a taser.
Oh, I love that.
I love that.
I just don't think she sells it.
Normally, I would expect Sarah Jane to sort of look and then make
a reaction, but it's just they've cut to this point where she's
already got the reaction and every time I watch it, I just go
that's a direct draw fault.
I don't like that shot.
Right.
But Elizabeth just warms up so quickly.
Like, it's like she's hardly been away at all.
Well, in fact, I think that that scene that you mentioned where
she says he replaces you with a new model is actually that's
actually her properly accepting that he's left and met someone
new.
You know, you get a bit of that in the Tartars afterwards, you
know, at the very end where she kind of invites Mickey to join
them.
But there's a little smile, a little kind of rueful smile on the
words, you know, he'll do that.
He will replace you with a new model, which I think is really very
nice.
And of course, then her final lines are actually a reference to
survival.
Yes.
What does she say?
Come on, we've got work to do.
So that's her becoming the doctor.
Yeah.
It really is.
It's going to be Russell.
Yeah.
So would you like to hear some working titles for this story?
Yes.
So one of them, which is kind of obvious, was old friends.
Oh yeah.
And the other one was Black Ops.
Oh dear.
Obviously a hangover from when it was set in an army pain.
Don't you think it should be Old Friends of Death?
With the sting.
I think it should be called the Kryletane conundrum.
Ah, the Krylic.
Everything with a K?
I do need to say that Torchwood is also seen on screen, Torchwood
access denied files just...
Oh, really?
Yeah, yeah, when Mickey tries to access something early on when
he's talking to them.
Oh, so maybe Torch would have got in and changed the doctor's
buffalo password.
Well, I think this is the Bad Wolf of series 2, right?
So we have continual references, which started in the last episode
in Tooth and Claw to Torchwood, which will pay off in the last
episode, spoilers.
And I think that's why it's occurred or showed up on screen just
in the background there when Mickey is trying to hack the files.
Yes, yes.
No I agree with you.
Like, I'm just mentioning that, you know, Torchwood is mentioned
just in case in future podcast episodes that I'm not in, that the
team will remember to tell us if Torchwood is mentioned or not.
I'm sure it won't come up again.
Todd said that this was his least favourite season of the RTD era
but I think famously, Stephen, you think rather differently about
it.
It's actually my favourite of all of new who, and it's at this
point that I'll start cowering from the abuse that I'll get for
saying that.
I'm not commenting What is it that you like about it?
There's 2 reasons or main reasons why I think it is the best
series and series of the new series.
First is there's a sort of personal aspect to it as well, and it's
deeply personal, but the more important is that this is what
Doctor Who is in the public imagination.
It is David Tennant.
It is Billy Piper.
We have a number of stories, I guess, that are still remembered
fondly by the general public.
It's kind of like the city of death or season 17 of Doctor Who for
the not we.
Um, you know, when most people are watching or a lot of people at
least are watching, but it's when Doctor Who penetrate the uh, sort
of postmodern post 2000 public consciousness and it sort of really
gets a grip of it and never lets go.
And even now, you know, you talk about Doctor Who with your
colleagues who are not Doctor Who fans.
And they'll talk about David Tennant.
They'll talk about Billy Piper.
This is the golden age of new who for me, and I think for many
others who are not Doctor Who fans.
I would tend to agree with you on that, Stephen.
I think if you talk to any of your not wee friends.
Yeah, have not we friends?
There are only 2 doctors.
There's there's David Tennant.
Tom Baker.
Yeah, that's it.
And they always top the polls.
Like in all of those, what, like the you gov poll?
No, actually, Tom was quite low down, wasn't he?
I think it was third.
But they make that imprint and it does, possibly to the detriment
of the, of the program going on.
It overwhelms what people expect it to be.
And when it doesn't fit that mould.
Say Peter Capaldi.
It actually creates a lot of sort of tension and anxiety.
Yes, yes, you're absolutely right.
I mean, you think about the doctor's played by a handsome young
lead for the 1st time, I think, in David Tennant.
Billy Piper is, oh, amazing, and obviously looks the part as
well.
It is the definition of that relationship of that sort of dynamic
between the new modern young doctor and the new, you know, up to
date, very sort of contemporary companion as well, and they're
both incredibly attractive.
So that doesn't hurt either.
Bright young things.
Yeah exactly.
And the family audience is tuning in.
It's very much, well, as Nathan has pointed out, RTD is a big fan
of the 3rd doctor and Joe, and it's the same sort of thing that
happened back in season 8, where suddenly the show's ratings went
up.
Excellent point.
Because people knew what they were tuning into and their
expectations of getting this.
Well, back then, you know, a family show with regular characters
and situations like invasion.
So there was a familiarity and a comfort and here they've got
these likeable leads.
They've got the stuff that people liked from the 1st series and
they're tuning in and this is their expectation of Doctor Who has
been met.
But that's okay.
I think Doctor Who can do that.
And, you know, here most explicitly in series 2, Doctor Who does a
love story, and I think if there's any kind of genre that will get
the uncommitted audience to watch, it will definitely be that.
And it doesn't mean that the show is broken forever.
It just means that the show does something different for a little
while.
So, you know, with the sex doctor, Colin Baker's doctor, we have
the doctor and the exploration of violence.
I don't know how intentional it is sometimes, but that's very much
a theme and that's what's explored the relationship between, you
know, violence as, I guess, a preoccupation of 80s television and
where Doctor Who fits into that.
It moves into, you know, McCoy's representation of the doctor
being, you know, much more of a schemer and manipulator, and
that's something that maybe we don't see again, and we certainly
didn't see before.
The ninth doctor clearly has PTSD and we sort of work through that
season using that as a theme.
Here.
It is the love story and I actually buy into it.
I love it.
There's personal reasons for it as well, but I actually think
again, to go back to my main point, people who are not fans will
watch this and also, yep, this is resonating, this is relatable
this isn't about space corridors and, you know, Zog monsters from
the planet Zog.
It's about, you know, a love story between 2 people who are, you
know, rather fun to watch.
And that's why series 2 is such a success, I believe, beyond
fandom. not so much within fandom.
And I am more than happy to accept that as part of that long, rich
tradition and tapestry of Doctor Who.
It's got to be different and new it at each and I think this is
what the new doctor and particularly in series 2 with Billy Piper
delivers.
It's that romantic lead.
I think too, on top of that, and on top of the fact that the 2
leads are just having a great deal of fun, I think that this is
the 1st season that goes out after they've seen the reaction to a
previous season and after they've tried to make a season.
And I think, for instance, they do a better job with the arc, um, I
think that they have a clear idea of what their regular cast is
capable of.
They know how much Doctor Whoness, the regular audience is going
to tolerate, you know, hence this episode.
And so it has some advantages over the 1st series, I think.
The 1st series had the advantage of, you know, it's, I think I
said this last week.
It's the stories that all of the writers have been gestating for
like 15, 16 years.
Very true.
But this has the advantage of, you know, our 2nd go at it.
Russell had actually pitched this to the BBC.
When Jane Tranter approached him in 2003, one of the things he
pitched, had it got a 2nd season was then will bring back Sarah
Jean and canine.
It was one of his pictures and possibly something she actually
hooked onto because she could see he was looking forward that
further than series one.
And it might not have happened.
Liz famously has said that she said no, initially, because she was
worried she was just going to be a throwaway kind of reference to
the past cameo character in the story and when she read the script
and realised how much Russell loved her character and what a good
job Toby had done with that.
That's when she agreed to come back.
That's lovely.
He was beautiful.
That, that, that is making me voice.
So let's just talk about the plot.
What the Acryletine's grand plan.
Yeah, the Krylitain's grand plan.
So we're feeding Crillitain oil, explosive Crillitain oil to the
children, we've infiltrated a school disguise as dinner ladies, and
what's our plan, Todd?
What are we trying to achieve here?
I don't know, Nathan.
No, no, no, I wrote it down, listeners.
I wrote it down because I never actually I actually never
remembered what it was.
And so that was one of my big bugbears, but they actually did say
what it was.
What was, it was given some name, the, the, what?
The scasis, the scasis paradigm.
That's it, yeah.
Actually, I've forgotten what that is again.
Can somebody explain it to me?
Sounds like something from Dark Crystal.
No, changing the building blocks of the universe or something?
It's block transfer computation?
Basically.
That's it.
Yes.
And I was so upset that they didn't use block transfer
computations.
They should have called it that.
You know, it is throwaway, as we have said before.
Todd's looking at me as if he can't believe I've even brought it
up.
Why are we talking about this stupid?
No, no, no, it's good. because this is one of the bugbears I had
but then it actually got explained this time when I watched the
episode as opposed to every other time where it was never
explained for some unknown reason.
There's that big confrontation at the end in the computer room.
Um, and it's super, super thin, but there is at least an attempt
to bring it into the main themes of the main plot and to even have
Sarah tell us what we can learn from their desire to, you know
control reality.
And like he offers it to the doctor and he offers it to Sarah, and
she's the one that really tells him, well, no.
Well, remember what the offer is.
The offer is that you could bring back lots of lost races
including the time lords, so you could reverse the one big great
personal loss that you've had in your life.
And Sarah could reverse, you know, the ageing and her loss of the
doctor and all of that sort of disappointment of the past few
years and she's the one who encourages the doctor to accept that
and not to try and get around it, but that's part of what living
is.
Yeah, pain and loss to finest.
Everything has its time and everything ends.
Yeah.
I love that.
So, I mean, the way that I see it is that I'm not sure if it sort
of comes across 100% in David Tennant's performance, but the
doctor is meant to be utterly lured by this.
It's, you know, Lucifer and tempting Christ in the desert for 40
days or nights and he's having this moment where it's like, I
could, I could undo all of that.
But it's his, um, Okay, I need to stop because I'm tearing up.
Um, But it's his friends, it's his companions who who get who
bring the better out of him and remind him that actually that's
not the way.
You aren't the lonely god and you never have been because you've
always got us and, you know, that speech that Sarah gives about
pain and loss defining us that you just mentioned, Todd, is
glorious.
And that's what snaps the doctor back out of it.
I think it's a beautiful way to tie both of those plots together.
I've really enjoy discussing this with you all.
I think I'm going to be much more emotional the next time I
actually watch this.
It's actually going to pull up my heartstrings, all the stuff with
Sarah and K9.
It already does, but I think I'm going to need a box of tissues
right next to me because I, you guys, one of the joys about doing
this podcast is the fact that I come in with certain opinions.
Put them all out on the table and then you all come back with
different opinions and it changes, it changes me.
And so, um, thank you.
And that's and I think that's what's going to happen.
That's how I feel about this, and this episode is so much better
already in my rewatch.
So good grief, it could go up even more.
Season 2 is rising.
Series 2 is rising, looking.
And it's just a joy to watch Elizabeth Slayton on screen.
I mean, that's the biggest thing from this episode.
I'm so thrilled to hear that, Todd, because in some way that goes
to maybe thank you and return the favour in the way that you've
helped me to sort of reevaluate the Colin Baker era.
And it was really your views and arguments on FTE that made me
sort of stop and think to do that.
So if I'm able in some way to redeem series 2 in your eyes, then
I'm a very happy man.
Welder listener, that exploding school sounds like the end of the
episode, so let's head off into the future to give a promising
young writer the chance to see what he's capable of.
We'll see you next week for the girl in the fireplace.
In the meantime, you can find us at FlightthroughEntirety.com
flight through entirety on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at FT
podcast on Twitter.
You can also find us at our Series 11 Flashcast, Jody
Interterterra, which is at Jody Interterra.com, Jody Interterra on
Apple Podcasts, and at Jody Interterra on Twitter.
And finally, we can also be heard on Bondfinger, our commentary
podcast on the James Bond franchise and an increasingly irrelevant
array of other spy films.
You can find that at Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and
Apple Podcasts, and at Bondfingercast on Twitter.
Stephen, where can people find you?
You can find me on the new to who podcast on Twitter at new to who
podcast and on Facebook.
Please check us out.
Until next time, may your systems be improved with new
undetectable hyperlink facilities.
Thank you very much for listening and good night.
See you soon.
Ta-ta.
Be seeing you.
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd B. Will be Nathan
Bottomley, Stephen B. and James Hellwood.
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings Performance by Jane
Orberg.
This episode, his little fanboy Hart, was recorded on the 26th of
January 2019 and released on the 31st of March.
Although we all enjoyed the opening scene of school reunion here
at FTE, we would like to assure you that we do not approve of the
eating of small orphan children, except in cases of moderate to
extreme hunger.
I was just thinking maybe, maybe the um, episode title for this
for this, um, story should be moistening up to an electric dog or
two.
We're not doing.
Sorry.
Yes, keep apologising.
That's appalling.
I'm sorry listeners.
This episode will never end.
Well, there's been at least one in there.
No, that's all right.
We allowed to do that.
We're allowed to sleep.
I've been really avoiding that No, I don't care.
All right.
Are there any, does anyone have a closing statement?
Well, my closing statement is that I...
Don't start with my closing statement because I'm going to start
closing. just want you to launch in with it.
I've really enjoyed discussing this with you.