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This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 12:43:31

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast, which always remembers to take at

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least one banana to every party.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm James.

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I'm Todd.

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And I'm Simon.

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It's the 51st century and Samsung has just released its 1st range

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of clockwork Android devices.

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Let's see how well that all turns out as we watch The Girl in the

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Fireplace.

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So, Stephen Moffat's back.

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He's already given us a two part story in season one, and here is

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his first single 45 minute episode, and I've avoided watching this

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for quite a long time since he's been a showrunner. because I

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thought coming back to it, I might see a lot more of his tropes

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which, you know, he's using probably for the 1st time.

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And so we've got a cold open, and I have to say, that he really

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does know how to hook you in.

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Simon?

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Yes, it's almost like we've started with the Cliffhanger to

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episode three.

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Because you've already got a character who we've never met before

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in the program, who obviously knows who the doctor is, but it's

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not done in that sort of rubbish way where, oh, yes, I remember

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meeting the doctor back on the planet Zog in the 52nd century.

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It's as if we're already well into the story.

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And we sort of are because that's what actually happens at the

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sort of roughly the 3 quarter mark of the episode.

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But I too actually hadn't watched it for many, many years.

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I don't know how long.

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I sort of been only watching the new series as it's come out and

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then, you know, the Blu-ray box set, sort of like 12 months behind

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kind of like it used to be back in the 70s in Britain where you

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just get like, you know, a repeat of Genesis of the Daleks or

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something at Christmas in between the seasons.

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But coming back to it after all these years, it really does

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actually remind me how brilliant Moffatt was and how much we

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really wanted Moffatt to be the showrunner at the time because, you

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know, his episodes, I feel it anyway.

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I think a lot of people do.

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His episodes in the Russell T. Davies era are the best, I think

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and this is no exception.

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In fact, it's probably the best of all of them.

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It is really something, I think.

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I also hadn't watched it for about 10 years.

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And I can never quite work out why I avoid them.

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So last week we did school reunion, obviously, and that's one that

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I put on from time to time, but I really hadn't watched the girl

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in the fireplace for maybe a decade.

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I still haven't.

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James, that's why you're not allowed on the podcast.

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So you haven't you haven't seen it.

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I haven't rewatched it.

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Right.

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I noticed, Nathan, you just said you've avoided it.

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You've avoided this particular episode or just the entire era.

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No, I tend to avoid the Moffatt ones.

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And I'm not quite sure why.

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I think partly because their tone is different to the surrounding

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episodes and they're notable for not having been rewritten by

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Russell.

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So I always imagine they're going to be a little bit less fun than

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an RTD episode.

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You know, like I would put school reunion on or New Earth on

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before I put Girl in the Fireplace on.

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But I think there's also a kind of feeling that they're sort of

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special and I don't want to waste them either.

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Certainly, I am quite wrong because Girl in the Fireplace is

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incredibly funny.

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Like really, really, very clever and funny and super, super

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enjoyable.

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But I don't know.

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There is a sort of there's a more sombre tone to Moffatt's

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episodes.

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It's the same with the empty child and the doctor dancers.

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You know, I would watch Aliens of London and World War 3 before I

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would watch those, even though rewatching them.

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I'm just astounded by how incredibly good they are.

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I think the silliness level for me, and that's an argument we've

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had privately over many years.

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And I think for me, it's because the silliness is more central to

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something like aliens of London, certainly something like aliens

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of London.

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Whereas with the Moffat stuff and with Girl in the Fireplace

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you've got a lot of sort of silliness that goes on, which is more

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incidental.

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And I think that's perhaps what I like most about it, and it's the

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flavour of it, which I really, really love.

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And it's because it is so much more serious, and I don't mean

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serious, as in deadly serious earnest.

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I just mean there's more, it just feels like there's more gravity

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there's more at stake, even though it's actually just the life of

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one woman.

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It's only the life of one woman who's that's at stake.

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And there's no talk about, oh, it's going to change the course of

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history of Madame de Pompadour. just not blah, blah, blah.

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That's all irrelevant. literally just the safety of this one

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person.

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But it sort of shows how important one person can be, even though

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you know, like it's not, it's not universe shattering.

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Yes, but it's important because we like her.

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It's not, it's not that old sort of thing that, oh, everyone's

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lives is important.

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And that's an important message, an important sort of thing that's

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been happening in the new series.

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It doesn't have to be a king or a queen or an empress for their

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life to be important.

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It can just be an individual.

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But it's just the scale of it, which is it feels both epic whilst

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still being intimate.

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And I think that's an interesting combination, which I don't think

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there's a formula for.

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I don't think you can't recreate that.

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It just, to some extent, happened by accident, but I happen to

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sort of feel that a lot of the best of Doctor Who actually happens

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by accident.

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The emotional stakes in this episode are incredible.

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And I think Sapphia Miles is just amazing as Renette, and she's

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got a great chemistry with David Tennant.

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And it really makes me want to have a companion from the past with

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the doctor.

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Like, you're not going to get it here, but it's something that the

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new series hasn't done, and I would love that.

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Interestingly though, an alternate version of the ending of this

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story written by Moffatt was that she would come with them.

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It's interesting to the contrast between 2 weeks ago where

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historical figures, you know, quite august and revered historical

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figures were kind of poked fun at.

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And that was critiqued.

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I mean, that wasn't just kind of left unaddressed.

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It was a problem, but the doctor and Rose were like super

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dismissive of Queen Victoria, who showed a sort of dignity that

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sort of surpassed their kind of mockery.

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Whereas here she is an incredibly impressive person, and not just

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because of a historical accomplishment, but just because of the

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way that she interacts with the doctor.

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They don't make the mistake, which is frequently made, that an

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historical person is stupid.

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You know, we're just as intelligent now as we were in the 3rd

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century BC.

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It's just that we've got all this stuff to start us off that we

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know that we can then kind of learn all these other things.

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And the beauty is that she comes across as a highly intelligent

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and perceptive person when she understands what Rose is saying

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about the fact that there's basically this place where all bits of

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her life are all joined together and it's not like magic.

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She doesn't accuse it of doing just magic.

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She sort of just tries to comprehend it and manages to.

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And I think that's great.

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She comes up with that book analogy, doesn't she?

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Where all the days of her life are like pressed together, like

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pages in a book.

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She clearly understands it and is even able to kind of explain it

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to the audience in a way.

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And of course, there's the Vulcan mind meld that the doctor does.

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Is this his 1st Vulcan mind meld?

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Well, since the 3 doctors.

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Yeah, I guess so.

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And she finds out about him.

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He is reading her mind.

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Yes, but she wasn't supposed to, was she?

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He was not expecting that to happen.

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No, that's right.

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And she's the one.

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Yes.

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Yes, which adds to her level of, I don't know.

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Superpower.

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Complexity.

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Intelligence, I should say.

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And she talks about, you know, so lonely, you know, very lonely

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childhood.

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And is this the 1st time that it's really talked about?

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This is something that Moffat's going to touch on again and

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again.

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Yeah, this is a place where he goes to, because this story, a

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little bit like the doctor dances is very much about who the

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doctor is and what he's like.

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And you get the mythic doctor, you know, the doctor who comes with

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the monsters, the doctor who monsters have nightmares about.

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You know, Moffat has said that Doctor Who takes place, you know

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under your bed.

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And behind the sofa.

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Yeah, yeah, just sort of very much about the role of the doctor

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and that's something that he will go on to address sort of ad

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nauseam in his era as showrunner.

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But it's also about the doctor as a person.

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Like, what was it like for him growing up?

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And again, you know, look at listen and he'll do that again.

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In fact, he'll make it much more explicit that the doctor is

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lonely.

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Well, it's the fan thing.

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It's the fanboy.

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It's trying to relate to the experience that I think many of us

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serious fans had as children, and that is that we may not have had

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very many friends or certainly not very many quote unquote normal

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friends.

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And so where we're wanting, that's one of the reasons why I think

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we gravitated towards Doctor Who and the kind of person he is.

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And I think Moffat's just remembering that from his own childhood

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and feeding it into the fact that the doctor had that sort of

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childhood as well.

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It's a sort of meta commentary on, you know, the doctor as a

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character in a TV program.

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The doctor as the script writer.

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So for one terrifying moment, I thought I'd accidentally put the

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11th hour DVD in.

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Why, Nathan?

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Are you seeing all the different Stephen Moffat tropes in the

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writing?

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That's the biggest thing that I sort of was looking at at this, you

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know?

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You know, straight up.

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It's suddenly 3000 years later and you're on a spaceship.

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He does that quite often.

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Like there's some sort of time jump to where the doctor is

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compared to what's actually going on in things.

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You've just hit on the fact that the doctor looks under the bed

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and there's a jump moment and a scare and he does that as well.

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We've got bananas, we've got doctor dancers.

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Can I get Simon?

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Can I just interrupt the 3000 years later thing?

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But you notice how in the opening shot, which goes down to where

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Madame de Pompito is, it starts on the same sort of nebula or

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Starfield or whatever it is, and goes down to Earth, and then you

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go back to that after the credits and it goes up to the

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spaceship.

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It's really clever, isn't it?

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You think that it's an opening shot of space and it's the night

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sky over.

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Which of course doesn't actually look like that, but who cares?

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No, no.

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And I guess that's something I love.

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I love the way in which, you know, how does this fireplace in 17th

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century connect to the 51st century?

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Why is she screaming into a fireplace?

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Yes, yes.

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Why is this?

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He hooks you in and then it's slowly, the story slowly unravels

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and you're putting it together at the same time as them, but

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you're slightly ahead, which is something that I think is very old

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school Doctor Who, like, Simon, when we were kids, watching the

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show.

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Yes, but how fast?

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Well, I'll come back to what's old school, Dr. Hun just a sec.

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But what is that thing about those 1st moments after the credits

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where the TARDIS arrives and they go out and they have a look?

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It's so quick, the way everything is summarised.

249
00:12:14.759 --> 00:12:15.419
Oh, here we are.

250
00:12:15.480 --> 00:12:17.340
This is a fireplace, but there's nothing on the other side because

251
00:12:17.340 --> 00:12:19.620
I can see straight out the window and there's nothing there.

252
00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:22.799
And then all those things are kind of set up so fast.

253
00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:26.519
What makes it feel like a classic episode of Doctor Who is you

254
00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:28.860
have a scene with other people?

255
00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:31.320
And then you have the TARDIS materialising.

256
00:12:31.379 --> 00:12:34.559
And I think that, and it happens at the end as well, when the

257
00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:37.440
Tatis leaves, where they actually all decide, okay, we're going

258
00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:37.679
now.

259
00:12:37.740 --> 00:12:40.620
And that, that topping entailing of the episode with that really

260
00:12:40.620 --> 00:12:42.960
makes it feel like a classic episode because it's happened so

261
00:12:42.960 --> 00:12:44.460
infrequently in the modern era.

262
00:12:44.519 --> 00:12:47.279
Because we start from the Tartar Cruise point of view.

263
00:12:47.340 --> 00:12:50.759
Like either we're in the TARDIS at the beginning or the TARDIS

264
00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:53.700
materializers at the beginning and we start with our crew.

265
00:12:53.759 --> 00:12:56.039
The 1st time we saw that was in the Unquiet Dead.

266
00:12:56.159 --> 00:12:56.820
Yeah.

267
00:12:56.820 --> 00:13:00.539
And that's when that episode came on when all this was new.

268
00:13:00.600 --> 00:13:02.820
It was like, I went, oh, thank goodness.

269
00:13:02.940 --> 00:13:04.679
This is the way it's supposed to be.

270
00:13:04.740 --> 00:13:06.960
You start with a scene where there are other people, not the

271
00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:07.379
doctor.

272
00:13:07.500 --> 00:13:10.080
Then drop the doctor in, then drop the doctor in.

273
00:13:10.139 --> 00:13:10.320
Yeah.

274
00:13:10.379 --> 00:13:15.240
It's not a surprise that that's in a Stephen Moffatt episode.

275
00:13:15.299 --> 00:13:19.500
I think Moffatt, more than most writers understands the mechanics

276
00:13:19.500 --> 00:13:24.360
of Doctor Who in an obsessive, compulsive kind of way and, you

277
00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:28.679
know, revisits these tropes, not just his own tropes, but the

278
00:13:28.679 --> 00:13:32.220
tropes of the show and reimagines and reinvents them constantly

279
00:13:32.220 --> 00:13:34.919
especially when he gets control of the show.

280
00:13:34.980 --> 00:13:39.480
And it's one of the things that I find joyous about watching that

281
00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:45.720
era of the show is that his grasp of the mechanics of the story.

282
00:13:45.779 --> 00:13:49.320
But isn't it wonderful the way the timey whiminess?

283
00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:54.779
which is the whole raison d'etre of the story, is actually not

284
00:13:54.779 --> 00:13:56.580
overly stupidly complicated.

285
00:13:56.639 --> 00:14:00.539
It does actually make sense within the story.

286
00:14:00.600 --> 00:14:03.120
Mere mortals can follow it, not just people like us.

287
00:14:03.179 --> 00:14:07.440
You know, so it's using those tropes, for want of a better word

288
00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:09.240
but in a way that is kind of accessible.

289
00:14:09.299 --> 00:14:14.759
I think that what's interesting is what you said at the beginning

290
00:14:14.759 --> 00:14:18.059
Simon, is that this is clearly someone who's had a relationship

291
00:14:18.059 --> 00:14:20.460
with a doctor over a long period of time.

292
00:14:20.460 --> 00:14:24.360
And we see that long-term relationship start.

293
00:14:24.419 --> 00:14:28.980
And the fact that the doctor's a time traveller means that he can

294
00:14:28.980 --> 00:14:34.440
have this long relationship with someone over many, many years in

295
00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:36.240
one episode organically.

296
00:14:36.299 --> 00:14:41.279
It's not like disaster from the planet Tigella who met the doctor

297
00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:48.120
in an unseen episode. we actually see that relationship begin Yeah

298
00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:48.360
yeah.

299
00:14:48.419 --> 00:14:51.539
It's all it's all just terribly terribly clever.

300
00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:57.120
And I think the other thing that Moffatt does is we think of

301
00:14:57.120 --> 00:15:02.940
Doctor Who as a thing that does odd juxtapositions, you know, that

302
00:15:02.940 --> 00:15:07.559
makes the mummies into robots, loyalty on the loo in tooting bag.

303
00:15:07.620 --> 00:15:08.159
Exactly.

304
00:15:08.220 --> 00:15:09.539
That's how we think of Doctor Who.

305
00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:14.039
And Doctor Who wasn't actually always so much like that.

306
00:15:14.100 --> 00:15:16.679
But that's our memory of what Doctor Who is for.

307
00:15:16.740 --> 00:15:19.139
And that's what Moffat does here.

308
00:15:19.200 --> 00:15:23.279
And it's the image of that horse. on the spaceship that absolutely

309
00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:24.419
sells it.

310
00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:28.559
And that little bit of dialogue where, you know, Mickey's surprise

311
00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:31.919
there's a horse on a spaceship and the doctor comes back with, well

312
00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:35.940
pre-revolutionary France is here on a spaceship, you know, get

313
00:15:35.940 --> 00:15:37.019
some perspective.

314
00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:42.299
What he's done is crashed this sort of space show into a

315
00:15:42.299 --> 00:15:45.600
historical frock drama about Madame de Pompadour.

316
00:15:45.659 --> 00:15:47.940
And it just works incredibly well.

317
00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:52.500
It seems like that's the sort of thing Doctor Who always did, even

318
00:15:52.500 --> 00:15:53.879
though it probably wasn't.

319
00:15:54.120 --> 00:16:00.120
Just occurred to me also that this is basically his 1st draft of

320
00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:01.799
River Song.

321
00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:02.460
Yeah.

322
00:16:02.460 --> 00:16:06.779
Like the whole doctor having a relationship with a with a woman

323
00:16:06.779 --> 00:16:10.440
over a long period of time, not necessarily in the right order.

324
00:16:10.500 --> 00:16:16.080
Yeah. which he's going to hang whole seasons on. the future.

325
00:16:16.139 --> 00:16:19.500
But this is the 1st time the doctor is someone's imaginary friend

326
00:16:19.500 --> 00:16:23.340
when they were a child and that's exactly what he does with Amy in

327
00:16:23.340 --> 00:16:24.179
the 11th hour as well.

328
00:16:24.299 --> 00:16:27.779
Yes, I was going to say, like, this explicitly says an imaginary

329
00:16:27.779 --> 00:16:28.019
friend.

330
00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:29.399
The raggedy man.

331
00:16:29.460 --> 00:16:31.200
Another trope, you know?

332
00:16:31.259 --> 00:16:33.779
And of course, you know, they get to have a snog.

333
00:16:33.899 --> 00:16:36.419
This is our 1st proper snog for the doctor, I think.

334
00:16:36.539 --> 00:16:37.139
I think so.

335
00:16:37.259 --> 00:16:42.899
Ah, that's an interesting comment, especially because I've just

336
00:16:42.899 --> 00:16:46.379
listened to the end of the 1st season podcast.

337
00:16:46.440 --> 00:16:50.759
Yeah, so podcast when you're arguing, discussing the kiss.

338
00:16:50.820 --> 00:16:53.580
So sucking the yellow goo out of it, whatever it was.

339
00:16:53.700 --> 00:16:54.179
Yeah.

340
00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:56.580
So, like on one level, that was a science fiction kiss.

341
00:16:56.700 --> 00:17:00.240
But on the other level, what about the kisses in the telly movie?

342
00:17:00.299 --> 00:17:01.559
of which there are at least two?

343
00:17:01.620 --> 00:17:03.720
Oh, yeah, but he there's proper snocking.

344
00:17:03.779 --> 00:17:04.920
I was watching David Tennant.

345
00:17:04.980 --> 00:17:07.559
He's doing, he's getting properly into it in a way that former

346
00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:07.920
mechanics.

347
00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:10.740
Is it only in the bedroom when she's an adult for the 1st time?

348
00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:11.279
Yeah.

349
00:17:11.339 --> 00:17:12.240
She kisses him.

350
00:17:12.299 --> 00:17:13.799
No, but he's into it.

351
00:17:13.859 --> 00:17:14.880
He kisses back.

352
00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:15.119
Yeah.

353
00:17:15.180 --> 00:17:16.920
I had it on freeze frame.

354
00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:19.200
I was slow motioning my way through that, Simon.

355
00:17:19.259 --> 00:17:20.160
That's not necessary.

356
00:17:20.220 --> 00:17:21.359
No, I'm not...

357
00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:23.579
You're saying that she's instigating the kiss.

358
00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:24.359
Is that what you're saying?

359
00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:24.839
Exactly.

360
00:17:24.900 --> 00:17:28.799
And that's exactly when Rose is possessed by Cassandra in New

361
00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:29.160
Earth.

362
00:17:29.220 --> 00:17:33.359
She leans in and kisses him and he just lets it happen rather than

363
00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:33.839
recoiling.

364
00:17:33.900 --> 00:17:35.460
Yeah, he sort of kisses back a little bit.

365
00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:36.660
But it's more the reaction.

366
00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:38.700
He loves it as a sense of, yeah, still got it.

367
00:17:38.759 --> 00:17:39.599
He knew it.

368
00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:41.519
And he's kind of, it's kind of happened the same sort of deal

369
00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:41.819
here.

370
00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:45.480
So I don't think the doctor is a character who goes off actively

371
00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:46.740
kissing people if I...

372
00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:47.279
No, no, no.

373
00:17:47.339 --> 00:17:49.440
I think that this is up another level for the doctor.

374
00:17:49.500 --> 00:17:51.960
But I think if we are accepting that this is going to happen in

375
00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:52.440
the program.

376
00:17:52.500 --> 00:17:54.779
I think it can work here in the same way that it can work later

377
00:17:54.779 --> 00:17:58.380
with River song and so on, because she's not actually the

378
00:17:58.380 --> 00:17:59.099
companion.

379
00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:02.400
I think when it's a bit problematic is when it is the companion.

380
00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:04.980
And I think that's why there was a bit of an issue with the rose

381
00:18:04.980 --> 00:18:05.640
moment.

382
00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:07.200
Yeah, season one.

383
00:18:07.259 --> 00:18:13.740
But it's because the character of Renette is so is a character

384
00:18:13.740 --> 00:18:15.180
that keeps recurring throughout the program.

385
00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:17.819
Every now and again we get whether it's, you know, Dr. Todd in

386
00:18:17.819 --> 00:18:21.359
Kinder or even someone like Astrid Ferrier in Enemy of the World.

387
00:18:21.420 --> 00:18:22.799
It's Maker.

388
00:18:22.859 --> 00:18:24.599
No, no, not, no, not gonna make it.

389
00:18:24.660 --> 00:18:26.519
But it doesn't really happen in the heart and all era.

390
00:18:26.579 --> 00:18:29.819
It's sort of more that sort of Davis era onwards, but it's a

391
00:18:29.819 --> 00:18:31.980
mature aged woman who's not a girl.

392
00:18:32.039 --> 00:18:34.019
Most of the companions are girls.

393
00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:36.539
We get it from time to time when they're not a girl, whether it's

394
00:18:36.539 --> 00:18:39.900
Barbara or Romana or Dr. Shaw, depending on how you define those

395
00:18:39.900 --> 00:18:42.539
people, but mainly they're kind of kids, right?

396
00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:46.500
And we've always hankered for these characters, like the women in

397
00:18:46.500 --> 00:18:47.039
stones of blood.

398
00:18:47.099 --> 00:18:49.619
We love them and they're fantastic, but they're only there just

399
00:18:49.619 --> 00:18:50.279
for that one story.

400
00:18:50.339 --> 00:18:55.859
And in each case, the doctor seems like he forms a more mature

401
00:18:55.859 --> 00:19:00.960
relationship with that person that isn't on the same level as even

402
00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:04.740
Sarah and Harry or Lilo, certainly not Tegan and Nista and

403
00:19:04.740 --> 00:19:05.099
Andrik.

404
00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:11.039
Certainly the companion as child analogy really is very evident in

405
00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:12.359
early Davidson.

406
00:19:12.420 --> 00:19:14.700
I mean, Nyssa and Adrick.

407
00:19:14.759 --> 00:19:19.799
I think Matthew Waterhouse brings this up in his autobiography

408
00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:23.400
when he's recording a commentary, he talks about how he flashed

409
00:19:23.400 --> 00:19:29.759
back 30 years and he and Sarah Sutton were the kids and Davidson

410
00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:34.259
and Janet Fielding were the sort of important adults having a

411
00:19:34.259 --> 00:19:35.640
serious adult conversation.

412
00:19:35.640 --> 00:19:38.940
It's explicitly in dialogue in Four to Doomsday.

413
00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:41.579
Remember, the doctor says to Persuasion, you know what children

414
00:19:41.579 --> 00:19:42.180
are like.

415
00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:47.099
And he says, I don't as it happens. but he's talking about Nissa

416
00:19:47.099 --> 00:19:48.779
and Adric.

417
00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:50.460
They are definitely children.

418
00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:51.539
And I know what you mean.

419
00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:55.079
There is, you know, Doctor Who's been reluctant to have a more

420
00:19:55.079 --> 00:20:00.119
mature female companion, arguably, I guess, Donna, who is.

421
00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:04.019
Yes, Donna is, and it works terrifically well.

422
00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:08.460
We know that Evelyn works very well on audio with...

423
00:20:08.519 --> 00:20:09.059
Yeah, yeah.

424
00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:12.240
They're a sort of person that he can have a proper relationship

425
00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:13.500
with.

426
00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:16.200
And I think Renette at the time that they kiss is 23.

427
00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:19.559
It's the 1st time that he meets her as an adult.

428
00:20:19.619 --> 00:20:25.200
But by the end of it, she's what, 37, like she's a similar age to

429
00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:29.400
how the doctor looks, and she's not in awe of him.

430
00:20:29.460 --> 00:20:33.839
They're very much equals, and I think that makes the relationship

431
00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:35.880
seem more credible.

432
00:20:35.940 --> 00:20:37.319
And less groomy.

433
00:20:37.380 --> 00:20:38.339
Yeah.

434
00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:40.500
I mean, there are 3 occasions.

435
00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:44.880
This is the 1st of 3 occasions where the doctor meets someone as a

436
00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:49.920
child who will become important to him in his later life.

437
00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:54.059
And so that's Amy, like Amelia Pond.

438
00:20:54.119 --> 00:20:59.640
And there was, I think, around about season eight, I think, there

439
00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:01.799
was a Clara in the playground.

440
00:21:01.799 --> 00:21:04.079
Clara in the playground when she was a little girl.

441
00:21:04.140 --> 00:21:08.700
And I think by the 3rd time I started to think actually...

442
00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:11.099
Yes, I would very much like never to see this again.

443
00:21:11.700 --> 00:21:14.940
Yes, but at least he doesn't form any kind of romantic

444
00:21:14.940 --> 00:21:16.920
relationship with him or anything that could be said to be a

445
00:21:16.920 --> 00:21:17.640
romantic relationship.

446
00:21:17.700 --> 00:21:21.119
The other thing is that in the context of being in the Tartars

447
00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:26.039
being the Tartars team, is the doctor is the one responsible for

448
00:21:26.039 --> 00:21:26.640
the more.

449
00:21:26.700 --> 00:21:28.980
So it is a kind of a duty of care.

450
00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:32.519
There is a, yes, there is a certain level of that which you could

451
00:21:32.519 --> 00:21:35.460
read into it, which makes it that little bit icky, if something

452
00:21:35.460 --> 00:21:35.759
like that.

453
00:21:35.819 --> 00:21:36.839
Yeah.

454
00:21:36.900 --> 00:21:38.700
It's an inappropriate workplace relationship.

455
00:21:38.819 --> 00:21:39.539
Exactly that.

456
00:21:39.660 --> 00:21:40.019
Yeah, yeah.

457
00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:43.440
I think it's really interesting that over the last 3 weeks, in

458
00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:46.680
particular, we've had this bond between the doctor and Rose, like

459
00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:49.500
their boyfriend and girlfriend very much so.

460
00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:52.980
And last week, you know, they threw Sarah into the mix to sort of

461
00:21:52.980 --> 00:21:55.440
shake up this notion that is this the case.

462
00:21:55.500 --> 00:21:59.220
And because Moffatt's writing this week, like the doctor is with

463
00:21:59.220 --> 00:22:02.819
Renette, like a boyfriend, girlfriend thing, whereas Rose is much

464
00:22:02.819 --> 00:22:06.779
more, she doesn't seem as phased as what she has in the past, like

465
00:22:06.779 --> 00:22:10.140
she's with Mickey and they're off on their own little thing.

466
00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:12.539
And she's got words to say to Renette.

467
00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:17.579
But it's interesting just the way he writes it. as as intense a

468
00:22:17.579 --> 00:22:20.819
bond, like in tooth and claw, you know, how they're very much

469
00:22:20.819 --> 00:22:21.119
together.

470
00:22:21.180 --> 00:22:22.680
Whereas here, I don't get that.

471
00:22:22.740 --> 00:22:24.660
You don't get a sense that she's jealous.

472
00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:29.940
I think that that comes from Mickey's dialogue where he is kind of

473
00:22:29.940 --> 00:22:32.460
ribbing rose about what the doctors like.

474
00:22:32.519 --> 00:22:36.779
You know, last week it was Sarah Jane, a Cleopatra, you know, it's

475
00:22:36.779 --> 00:22:39.539
something that the doctor seems to do.

476
00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:43.380
But I don't think Moffatt is interested in pursuing that

477
00:22:43.380 --> 00:22:47.759
relationship between the doctor and Rose.

478
00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:50.940
And Rose spends pretty much all of her time with Mickey.

479
00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:57.480
And I think that because Moffatt is a writer of such stature, RTD

480
00:22:57.480 --> 00:23:01.920
doesn't rewrite him, if there's something that is going on in the

481
00:23:01.920 --> 00:23:05.640
series as a whole, that Moffatt doesn't want to address, he just

482
00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:07.140
gets to leave it alone.

483
00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:08.640
It doesn't need to go in that week.

484
00:23:08.700 --> 00:23:13.619
So, you know, initially, in the early scripting stage of the

485
00:23:13.619 --> 00:23:17.940
season, this was planned to be episode two.

486
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:19.079
Oh, okay.

487
00:23:19.140 --> 00:23:25.680
And so a lot of what we're talking about eventuated because of its

488
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:30.000
place in the season, I think. when once you decide to put it in

489
00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:33.660
episode four, mainly for production reasons, because it's so

490
00:23:33.660 --> 00:23:41.099
complex, it makes sense because you've got them being flirty, then

491
00:23:41.099 --> 00:23:45.059
you know, she meets Sarah Jane and it makes her rethink her

492
00:23:45.059 --> 00:23:47.220
relationship with him and then her boyfriend.

493
00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:52.680
Well, the ex-boyfriend comes along and is there.

494
00:23:52.740 --> 00:23:55.559
So it sort of shows the relationship in flux.

495
00:23:55.619 --> 00:24:00.299
But isn't it so refreshing not to have her absolutely besotted by

496
00:24:00.299 --> 00:24:00.539
the doctor?

497
00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:04.859
I think it would have been bad to have jealousy again this week

498
00:24:04.859 --> 00:24:06.720
after last week's episode.

499
00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:12.720
And I do think whether it's deliberate or inadvertent, Like having

500
00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:18.960
an episode where the doctor basically abandons Rose and Mickey on

501
00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:23.400
a 51st century spaceship in order to ride a white horse off and

502
00:24:23.400 --> 00:24:26.519
rescue his new girlfriend, you know?

503
00:24:26.519 --> 00:24:29.039
So you know that horse?

504
00:24:29.099 --> 00:24:30.299
Arthur.

505
00:24:30.660 --> 00:24:35.039
That's the same horse that turns into a zygon and day of the

506
00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:36.240
doctor. recurring actor.

507
00:24:36.299 --> 00:24:37.019
A horse with a career.

508
00:24:37.259 --> 00:24:41.039
Maybe it was already a zigon in that.

509
00:24:41.099 --> 00:24:44.700
I remember, because I think there's quite a good commentary on

510
00:24:44.700 --> 00:24:49.319
this episode with Noel Clark and Stephen Moffatt.

511
00:24:49.380 --> 00:24:52.380
They used to release commentary podcasts.

512
00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:56.940
It must be where we got the idea from during early series of the

513
00:24:56.940 --> 00:24:57.839
new series.

514
00:24:57.900 --> 00:25:02.700
And Moffatt says that the scene where he bursts through the mirror

515
00:25:02.700 --> 00:25:06.960
on a white horse that Russell actually came to him and said, I

516
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:09.480
think we have to lose that scene for budgetary reasons.

517
00:25:09.539 --> 00:25:16.859
And he described himself chucking the most epic hissy food. in

518
00:25:16.859 --> 00:25:19.019
Christendom or something along those lines.

519
00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:20.940
And it had to be there.

520
00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:25.079
It's the doctor is a romantic hero making a grand giant, romantic

521
00:25:25.079 --> 00:25:25.740
gesture.

522
00:25:25.799 --> 00:25:30.779
The scene itself as realised is not very good.

523
00:25:31.079 --> 00:25:32.579
Do you think?

524
00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:34.619
Yeah, I don't think it's the best that it can be.

525
00:25:34.740 --> 00:25:37.619
I mean, there's a little bit of the CGI, you can sort of, is a bit

526
00:25:37.619 --> 00:25:38.579
visible, should we?

527
00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:41.519
It's all composited together and he moves in a sort of slightly

528
00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:41.940
odd way.

529
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:46.380
It doesn't quite work, but certainly attempting to do it was much

530
00:25:46.380 --> 00:25:49.680
better than kind of writing around it or having him sort of roll

531
00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:51.660
back and mix into the ballroom or something.

532
00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:54.059
I think the realisation that a frog on a chair is worse.

533
00:25:54.119 --> 00:25:55.920
Oh, no, that was a real puppet.

534
00:25:55.980 --> 00:25:58.619
That was like a metabolist. spider.

535
00:25:58.680 --> 00:26:00.059
Do not criticise that.

536
00:26:00.779 --> 00:26:03.779
It would have only been better if it had been Kermit.

537
00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:07.200
Well, let's just say the problem I have with the sequence of him

538
00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:10.920
leaping the horse jumping through the mirror is not the horse, the

539
00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:12.359
mirror, or the CGI, but the music.

540
00:26:12.420 --> 00:26:16.859
So that's the thing that was the Murraygold is comparatively

541
00:26:16.859 --> 00:26:19.859
restrained throughout the episode, apart from that sequence.

542
00:26:19.980 --> 00:26:21.660
But I mean, that is the hero moment.

543
00:26:21.720 --> 00:26:25.980
I mean, part of Murray's brief, I think, is to, you know, leave no

544
00:26:25.980 --> 00:26:30.119
Aristea unturned in being absolutely kind of bombastic.

545
00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:31.259
Oh, I have no doubt.

546
00:26:31.319 --> 00:26:32.220
I just don't like it.

547
00:26:41.579 --> 00:26:43.619
Mickey and Rose.

548
00:26:43.740 --> 00:26:44.160
Yep.

549
00:26:44.220 --> 00:26:49.440
I really enjoy Noel Clark's performance in this, the growth in

550
00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:50.339
Mickey, the joy it.

551
00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:52.259
I got a spaceship on the 1st time round.

552
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:53.400
It looks so realistic.

553
00:26:53.460 --> 00:26:54.900
Oh, yes, that is hilarious.

554
00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:56.700
But that's also there for all the people.

555
00:26:56.759 --> 00:26:58.559
It like the Dalek going up the stairs in remembrance of the

556
00:26:58.559 --> 00:26:58.920
Daleks.

557
00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:01.380
It's saying, look, doctor's not crappy anymore.

558
00:27:02.460 --> 00:27:05.880
Yeah, and then they get, you know, they get their big guns and

559
00:27:05.880 --> 00:27:08.400
investigate the spaceship.

560
00:27:08.460 --> 00:27:12.299
Well, I mean, let's talk about that plot that they have together

561
00:27:12.299 --> 00:27:14.700
on the spaceship while the doctors off.

562
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:16.920
Matter de pompering.

563
00:27:16.980 --> 00:27:17.519
Yeah, yeah.

564
00:27:17.579 --> 00:27:18.599
So to speak.

565
00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:22.619
Well, I think it's just great to see to see him investigating

566
00:27:22.619 --> 00:27:26.339
things and wanting to know what's going on and the dynamic between

567
00:27:26.339 --> 00:27:30.779
him and Billy Piper and how different it is from the 1st season.

568
00:27:31.259 --> 00:27:33.900
In fact, it's even different from the end of the last episode

569
00:27:33.900 --> 00:27:34.500
isn't it?

570
00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:38.579
Where she's visibly annoyed that he's been invited onto the TARDIS

571
00:27:38.579 --> 00:27:42.539
with them, but that's been completely dropped, I think, for this

572
00:27:42.539 --> 00:27:43.019
episode.

573
00:27:43.079 --> 00:27:45.960
And I think that's a good thing.

574
00:27:46.019 --> 00:27:50.519
I think it's also, it's indicative of Moffatt's approach to

575
00:27:50.519 --> 00:27:56.339
stories in Doctor Who, which is that he never wants one story to

576
00:27:56.339 --> 00:28:00.359
pick up where another one has left off and he deliberately does

577
00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:04.380
that so that you can slot big finish adventures in between them.

578
00:28:04.440 --> 00:28:07.559
You know, that's his raison d'etre for that sort of thing.

579
00:28:07.619 --> 00:28:11.880
So he's, I think he said in the confidential in interviews around

580
00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:16.740
there, he deliberately head cannoned that as they're having been

581
00:28:16.740 --> 00:28:19.500
quite a lot of time had passed between the underschool reunion

582
00:28:19.500 --> 00:28:19.680
here.

583
00:28:19.799 --> 00:28:22.079
Despite the fact that he says that I got a spaceship on my 1st

584
00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:22.259
game.

585
00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:25.680
Anyway, I'm glad that we didn't sort of pursue that because I

586
00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:26.759
think that would have been a bit.

587
00:28:26.819 --> 00:28:27.900
But also it's icky.

588
00:28:28.019 --> 00:28:31.740
I mean, it's the Doctor Who universe that we aspire to.

589
00:28:31.799 --> 00:28:33.240
It's supposed to be an inclusive place.

590
00:28:33.299 --> 00:28:35.460
People are welcome in the Tartars.

591
00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:37.920
I know in practice you don't have like 50 people travelling with a

592
00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:41.519
doctor at a time because that's, you know, they...

593
00:28:41.579 --> 00:28:43.859
Not travelling from story to story.

594
00:28:43.920 --> 00:28:45.539
But I found all that.

595
00:28:45.539 --> 00:28:48.960
And, you know, you picked it up with Boomtown on this podcast.

596
00:28:49.019 --> 00:28:53.339
It's all a bit awful and they all look terrible and it's Mickey

597
00:28:53.339 --> 00:28:54.720
that's the one that you feel sorry for.

598
00:28:54.779 --> 00:28:58.380
And I think finally we're getting, we've moved through that and

599
00:28:58.380 --> 00:29:01.140
we're at a point where, no, no, Mickey is actually, you know

600
00:29:01.140 --> 00:29:03.119
allowed to be called a companion, everyone.

601
00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:05.279
You know, he's travelled to the Tatars, you know, get stuffed.

602
00:29:05.400 --> 00:29:08.640
And in some respects, that's being said to Rose, or at least to

603
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:09.599
the rose of Boomtown.

604
00:29:09.660 --> 00:29:11.640
Yeah, no, someone completely agree with you.

605
00:29:11.700 --> 00:29:14.700
And through these episodes here in the middle of the season.

606
00:29:14.759 --> 00:29:17.880
He just shows maturity in the character that I don't think is in

607
00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:19.920
always shown in Rose's character.

608
00:29:19.980 --> 00:29:22.859
And, you know, Billy has said that she considers Rose to be fairly

609
00:29:22.859 --> 00:29:23.279
selfish.

610
00:29:23.339 --> 00:29:26.640
But even at the end of the episode, you know, when the doctor says

611
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:27.240
he's all right.

612
00:29:27.299 --> 00:29:30.539
But Mickey knows, come on, you know, show me around this place.

613
00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:34.200
He knows that they need to get out of that to give the doctor a

614
00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:34.380
moment.

615
00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:36.599
I think that's actually really, really good.

616
00:29:36.660 --> 00:29:40.680
That's one of my favourite moments in, I think it might be in

617
00:29:40.680 --> 00:29:41.700
Tenant's run.

618
00:29:41.819 --> 00:29:47.160
You know, tenants so mannered and so like sometimes a little bit

619
00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:48.000
irritating.

620
00:29:48.059 --> 00:29:54.480
And he comes in after losing Renette, like after seeing the hearse

621
00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:55.079
drive off.

622
00:29:55.140 --> 00:30:00.839
He comes into the Tartars and he's just normal, you know, like

623
00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:03.720
he's just someone who's been bereaved.

624
00:30:03.779 --> 00:30:07.440
Rose asks him if he's all right and he says, yeah, I'm always all

625
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:07.799
right.

626
00:30:07.859 --> 00:30:09.420
But the mask has dropped.

627
00:30:09.480 --> 00:30:12.839
The doctor performance has stopped for a bit.

628
00:30:12.900 --> 00:30:15.059
But it is Mickey.

629
00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:16.200
You're right, Todd.

630
00:30:16.259 --> 00:30:18.960
It's Mickey who's the one who realises that the doctor should be

631
00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:19.380
left alone.

632
00:30:19.500 --> 00:30:21.059
On the Mickey thing.

633
00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:22.680
Sorry, if I can just add one more thing to that.

634
00:30:22.740 --> 00:30:26.460
The making fun of Mickey, though, there is still one remnant of

635
00:30:26.460 --> 00:30:26.640
it.

636
00:30:26.700 --> 00:30:30.539
And it's the when Rose says, you're not keeping the horse.

637
00:30:30.599 --> 00:30:32.759
And he says, I let you keep Mickey.

638
00:30:32.819 --> 00:30:35.460
And now that's kind of acceptable because it's just a bit of

639
00:30:35.460 --> 00:30:38.819
banter, but it's still that kind of leftover bit of, you know, oh

640
00:30:38.819 --> 00:30:40.920
Mickey's just a piece of like an extraneous character.

641
00:30:40.980 --> 00:30:43.619
You know, he'll probably get killed by the end of the season

642
00:30:43.619 --> 00:30:44.579
because he doesn't really care.

643
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:45.359
He doesn't really matter.

644
00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:47.400
Colour is his shirt.

645
00:30:47.460 --> 00:30:48.720
Yeah, exactly.

646
00:30:48.779 --> 00:30:53.339
But if I can also say that regret scene in the Tartars at the end

647
00:30:53.339 --> 00:30:58.619
with Tenets reading the note and everything, it starts when he

648
00:30:58.619 --> 00:31:02.579
spins the fireplace around, after Renette said, oh, actually, no

649
00:31:02.579 --> 00:31:04.619
this is still here and he works it out.

650
00:31:04.680 --> 00:31:06.720
And he goes, yeah, it's great.

651
00:31:06.779 --> 00:31:10.200
And he clicks it and the thing starts spinning around and she says

652
00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:12.180
no. wish me luck.

653
00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:15.359
And then, and then the look on his face, and I'm not a fan of

654
00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:16.559
David Tennant as the doctor.

655
00:31:16.619 --> 00:31:20.460
But that look on his face, it is just so, oh my god, what have I

656
00:31:20.460 --> 00:31:20.759
just done?

657
00:31:20.819 --> 00:31:24.779
Because we've already established at the beginning that years can

658
00:31:24.779 --> 00:31:26.700
pass in the same fireplace.

659
00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:30.059
And it's that look on his face saying, am I just throwing this

660
00:31:30.059 --> 00:31:30.299
away?

661
00:31:30.359 --> 00:31:32.700
It's disappearing as I turn around and I think that's beautiful.

662
00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:34.019
And I think that's...

663
00:31:34.019 --> 00:31:37.259
That's when he realises that this could go terribly wrong.

664
00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:40.019
And I think that's when he realises he's never going to see her

665
00:31:40.019 --> 00:31:40.200
again.

666
00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:43.500
Yes, even though he shouts at her through the fireplace then and

667
00:31:43.500 --> 00:31:45.119
says, capacia things, you know.

668
00:31:45.180 --> 00:31:48.119
Look, that's almost like sort of out of place because by then he

669
00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:50.220
should have said, you know, don't move away from the fireplace or

670
00:31:50.220 --> 00:31:52.559
someone stay by the fireplace because if we don't, you know, 10

671
00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:54.539
years will go past like they did last time.

672
00:31:54.599 --> 00:31:58.140
But it's this emotional gravitas and the cleverness of Stephen

673
00:31:58.140 --> 00:32:02.220
Moffatt's writing and the performances of the entire cast here at

674
00:32:02.220 --> 00:32:04.920
the end of this episode, that moves you to tears.

675
00:32:04.980 --> 00:32:07.740
I was mentioning last week that I've got a stone called Heart when

676
00:32:07.740 --> 00:32:10.440
it came to like the Sarah Jane.

677
00:32:10.500 --> 00:32:11.339
Yes apparently.

678
00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:14.400
When it came to the Sarah Jane episode.

679
00:32:14.460 --> 00:32:17.579
Now, I don't get anywhere near as emotional, right?

680
00:32:17.640 --> 00:32:21.059
But on the 1st viewing of that episode of Sarah Jane, end of

681
00:32:21.059 --> 00:32:21.299
this.

682
00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:23.099
Like I was in tears at the end of this.

683
00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:27.779
Like, it's real testament to the writing and Stephen's ability to

684
00:32:27.779 --> 00:32:30.299
manipulate you in that way and the structure.

685
00:32:30.359 --> 00:32:32.279
It's a structure of the whole script.

686
00:32:32.339 --> 00:32:34.980
But also actors work best when they've got good stuff to work

687
00:32:34.980 --> 00:32:35.160
with.

688
00:32:35.220 --> 00:32:39.299
I think he gives them Moffatt, gives them the lines to do those

689
00:32:39.299 --> 00:32:40.019
performances.

690
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:42.720
They don't just get conjured up, especially not in the modern era

691
00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:44.759
where, if I understand this, right, and I might not.

692
00:32:44.819 --> 00:32:47.940
It's, you know, in the olden days, they used to have weeks of

693
00:32:47.940 --> 00:32:49.980
rehearsal in a room in Acton or wherever it was.

694
00:32:50.039 --> 00:32:52.980
Whereas now isn't it more like sort of rehearse record, like

695
00:32:52.980 --> 00:32:54.779
modern television, quote unquote.

696
00:32:54.839 --> 00:32:56.819
So they don't have that time to think, oh, wait a minute, maybe

697
00:32:56.819 --> 00:32:58.500
the character of a net would say this, blah, blah, blah.

698
00:32:58.559 --> 00:32:59.519
So it's Moffat, yeah.

699
00:32:59.579 --> 00:33:03.420
And it's him writing to his strengths because, you know, he starts

700
00:33:03.420 --> 00:33:09.180
with witty screwball romantic comedy where you have 2 clever

701
00:33:09.180 --> 00:33:13.980
wilful characters saying clever things to one another. very

702
00:33:13.980 --> 00:33:14.400
coupling.

703
00:33:14.460 --> 00:33:17.039
It's very coupling without the sexism.

704
00:33:17.099 --> 00:33:20.819
And it's something that he writes incredibly well.

705
00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:24.420
I mean, you have someone who is brilliant at sitcom dialogue.

706
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:25.920
Sort of a bit love, actually, is what you say.

707
00:33:25.980 --> 00:33:27.240
I love actually.

708
00:33:27.299 --> 00:33:29.039
Yeah, it's love actually the Christmas one.

709
00:33:29.700 --> 00:33:33.839
He's just very, very funny and very, very clever and the dialogue

710
00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:35.460
just works incredibly well.

711
00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:36.720
It's just sparkling.

712
00:33:36.839 --> 00:33:39.059
And just the way he seeds everything.

713
00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:43.019
Like, you know, how does this woman link to the 51st century and

714
00:33:43.019 --> 00:33:44.039
then keeps coming back to it?

715
00:33:44.099 --> 00:33:47.279
You know, the ship is 37 when she is 37 years complete.

716
00:33:47.339 --> 00:33:51.420
I just love all those little builds up building up to that point

717
00:33:51.420 --> 00:33:52.440
in the script.

718
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:57.059
One of the complaints about RTDs era is that things aren't

719
00:33:57.059 --> 00:34:00.359
properly accounted for or things aren't always explained in

720
00:34:00.359 --> 00:34:01.140
dialogue.

721
00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:03.779
And, you know, people make that complaint that, you know, the

722
00:34:03.779 --> 00:34:07.619
conclusion of an episode just seems to come out of nowhere and

723
00:34:07.619 --> 00:34:09.780
people think it's sort of careless plotting.

724
00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:12.000
I actually don't think that's the case.

725
00:34:12.059 --> 00:34:16.019
I think that's the way Russell writes, and he chooses not to weigh

726
00:34:16.019 --> 00:34:18.300
things down with too much explanation.

727
00:34:18.360 --> 00:34:23.579
Here, Moffatt is much, much more careful about providing

728
00:34:23.579 --> 00:34:25.079
explanations for things.

729
00:34:25.139 --> 00:34:31.380
And he creates this puzzle box plot and brings mysteries up, all

730
00:34:31.380 --> 00:34:36.360
of which get resolved until the very end when finally the Y

731
00:34:36.360 --> 00:34:38.760
Renette question gets answered.

732
00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:40.860
Yes, but they don't know.

733
00:34:40.920 --> 00:34:42.179
And they never find out.

734
00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:44.099
That's something that they never find out.

735
00:34:44.219 --> 00:34:45.179
And isn't that great?

736
00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:46.139
Yeah, that is awesome.

737
00:34:46.199 --> 00:34:54.119
But he does cheat by making the shape of the world kind of

738
00:34:54.119 --> 00:34:55.079
preposterous.

739
00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:57.900
He does this with the weeping angels as well.

740
00:34:58.019 --> 00:35:02.820
The fact that what we have here is a spaceship that is powerful

741
00:35:02.820 --> 00:35:09.420
enough to punch bunches of holes in one person's timeline that is

742
00:35:09.420 --> 00:35:15.179
populated by robots that, for some reason, decide to carve up the

743
00:35:15.179 --> 00:35:19.079
crew and then travel to various points in time in a particular

744
00:35:19.079 --> 00:35:21.780
person's timeline in order to chop off their head.

745
00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:27.480
And the whole thing is just hugely, hugely high concept.

746
00:35:27.480 --> 00:35:32.280
And it has the shape it has, not because that's a thing that might

747
00:35:32.280 --> 00:35:38.039
happen or, you know, like something that is thematically resonant

748
00:35:38.039 --> 00:35:41.039
or anything, but it enables the story to happen.

749
00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:43.320
And it's the same with the weeping angels.

750
00:35:43.380 --> 00:35:45.659
Nothing like the weeping angels could ever possibly evolve.

751
00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:47.460
You know, they're absolutely magic.

752
00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:48.360
They're just magic.

753
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:52.320
Yes, but you can make that criticism about any episode, or

754
00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:53.219
virtually any episode.

755
00:35:53.280 --> 00:35:55.800
I mean, I think you mentioned it in Boomtown, where Margaret's

756
00:35:55.800 --> 00:35:57.900
going to do whatever she's going to do to the nuclear power plant

757
00:35:57.900 --> 00:35:59.880
to do whatever it is so she can serve it home.

758
00:35:59.940 --> 00:36:00.539
I mean, really.

759
00:36:00.599 --> 00:36:02.519
I don't think that's a criticism.

760
00:36:02.579 --> 00:36:03.900
Oh, it's just an observation.

761
00:36:03.960 --> 00:36:08.099
But Doctor Who has got so many of those and I think if you stop to

762
00:36:08.099 --> 00:36:08.639
worry about them.

763
00:36:08.699 --> 00:36:11.219
Like, you know, I've been watching the Blu-ray of Genesis of the

764
00:36:11.219 --> 00:36:11.760
Daleks.

765
00:36:11.820 --> 00:36:15.000
And much as I absolutely adore that story from my childhood and

766
00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:18.719
everything, I was watching it and going, oh, but how does that

767
00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:18.960
work?

768
00:36:19.019 --> 00:36:20.880
I mean, if they've really been at war for a 1000 years and this

769
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:21.900
and that and da da da.

770
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:24.480
And, you know, they create this world, which is just nonsense.

771
00:36:24.539 --> 00:36:25.559
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

772
00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:26.760
They'd never end up there.

773
00:36:26.820 --> 00:36:29.579
It's 2 cities, 2 dome cities within walking.

774
00:36:29.639 --> 00:36:30.659
Walking distance on the entire.

775
00:36:30.659 --> 00:36:32.760
Yes, we've been walking just like an hour's walk.

776
00:36:32.820 --> 00:36:35.639
So what I'm saying is, yeah, I get what you're saying, but I think

777
00:36:35.639 --> 00:36:39.360
to criticise this or to observe it's particularly about this

778
00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:39.659
episode.

779
00:36:39.719 --> 00:36:43.619
I think Moffat in particular does these sort of strange high

780
00:36:43.619 --> 00:36:48.059
concept things that work as the episodes going along.

781
00:36:48.119 --> 00:36:51.599
But if you stop afterwards and sort of think actually what's

782
00:36:51.599 --> 00:36:54.179
happening here, it has a very strange shape.

783
00:36:54.239 --> 00:36:57.480
It's a world that has a very, very unusual world shape.

784
00:36:57.539 --> 00:37:00.300
The world fits the structural plot. not the other way around.

785
00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:02.099
Yeah, it's the structure of the writing.

786
00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:05.639
It requires this to tell that story to tell that particular

787
00:37:05.639 --> 00:37:06.179
story.

788
00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:08.940
And that is not a criticism at all because when you're watching it

789
00:37:08.940 --> 00:37:11.519
the performance is the sparkling dialogue, the whole structure of

790
00:37:11.519 --> 00:37:12.900
it just takes you away.

791
00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:18.539
If you compare it to, say, gridlock where Russell creates a world

792
00:37:18.539 --> 00:37:22.440
and then drops the doctor in it and gives him something to do and

793
00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:25.860
the shape of the world isn't determined by the type of story that

794
00:37:25.860 --> 00:37:28.860
he wants to tell, it's determined by the themes that he wants to

795
00:37:28.860 --> 00:37:31.199
explore, here, I think it's the other way around.

796
00:37:31.380 --> 00:37:35.519
But I mean, in gridlock, you've got all these cars on a freeway

797
00:37:35.519 --> 00:37:39.059
for God knows how many years, which is just completely...

798
00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:41.820
And that's, yes, but and that's what I was going to add, is that

799
00:37:41.820 --> 00:37:44.400
the problem with something like gridlock is it's perfectly fine

800
00:37:44.400 --> 00:37:48.239
until they happen to say that they've been in a traffic jam for 30

801
00:37:48.239 --> 00:37:49.199
years or whatever it was.

802
00:37:49.260 --> 00:37:51.360
I can't remember the number, but it's an absurd number of years.

803
00:37:51.420 --> 00:37:55.619
And that level of absurdity, for some reason, for me, makes me go

804
00:37:55.619 --> 00:37:56.159
jolt.

805
00:37:56.219 --> 00:37:57.480
Oh, that's just stupid.

806
00:37:57.599 --> 00:38:01.260
Whereas the fact that this spaceship can punish, you know, a dozen

807
00:38:01.260 --> 00:38:02.400
holes in this woman's timeline.

808
00:38:02.460 --> 00:38:03.840
It doesn't phase me at all.

809
00:38:03.900 --> 00:38:05.400
Just to get a spare part.

810
00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:06.539
Just to get a spare part.

811
00:38:06.599 --> 00:38:11.460
And I wonder and I make that not as a criticism of what you're

812
00:38:11.460 --> 00:38:13.079
saying, but just as an observation.

813
00:38:13.139 --> 00:38:16.440
Like, isn't that interesting that some things cross the silliness

814
00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:18.420
threshold and break you out of it.

815
00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:19.320
But then other things.

816
00:38:19.380 --> 00:38:20.460
Oh no, that's perfectly fine.

817
00:38:20.519 --> 00:38:24.539
But I think, too, that Moffatt is more interested in Doctor Who as

818
00:38:24.539 --> 00:38:30.420
a storytelling vehicle than Doctor Who has a sort of coherent

819
00:38:30.420 --> 00:38:34.139
account of an individual person's adventures in time inspired.

820
00:38:34.199 --> 00:38:35.460
I think that's as it should be.

821
00:38:35.519 --> 00:38:36.360
Yeah, yeah.

822
00:38:36.420 --> 00:38:37.679
Oh, yes, absolutely.

823
00:38:37.739 --> 00:38:40.860
And I mean, I love the plot device that they just happen to move

824
00:38:40.860 --> 00:38:41.820
the original fireplace.

825
00:38:41.940 --> 00:38:42.539
She just moved it.

826
00:38:42.599 --> 00:38:44.400
Yeah, both throwing brick brick.

827
00:38:44.460 --> 00:38:47.159
I actually found that convincing though, because she knew that

828
00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:48.300
that was where the doctor appeared.

829
00:38:48.360 --> 00:38:49.260
Of course, she would do that.

830
00:38:49.320 --> 00:38:53.159
Like I didn't think I thought that that just about hung together

831
00:38:53.159 --> 00:38:54.960
as a plot point.

832
00:38:55.019 --> 00:38:57.179
But again, just about, just about.

833
00:38:57.239 --> 00:38:59.099
Again, I didn't have any problem with that at all.

834
00:38:59.159 --> 00:39:02.699
But again, two, it's the only one that isn't blown out.

835
00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:06.840
And again, you know, all of the windows are blown out. just making

836
00:39:06.840 --> 00:39:07.800
this up, you know.

837
00:39:08.039 --> 00:39:11.639
All of the windows are blown out except the one in the fireplace

838
00:39:11.639 --> 00:39:14.699
which we observed in the 1st scene is very well built. you know

839
00:39:14.699 --> 00:39:16.019
because it's offline or something.

840
00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:19.800
Yeah, and it's offline and all of that, like...

841
00:39:19.860 --> 00:39:20.699
It all works.

842
00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:26.460
Like what you were saying, there's some things as individuals take

843
00:39:26.460 --> 00:39:27.000
you out of things.

844
00:39:27.059 --> 00:39:30.300
You know, we're all different and we all have to. different things

845
00:39:30.300 --> 00:39:32.579
that sort of go, oh, you know, that's okay, well that's not.

846
00:39:32.639 --> 00:39:35.880
For me, it sort of just indicates an approach that I approve of

847
00:39:35.880 --> 00:39:42.360
which is that for him, plot and character are more important than

848
00:39:42.360 --> 00:39:45.780
world building.

849
00:39:45.780 --> 00:39:48.360
Well, no, but he can.

850
00:39:48.360 --> 00:39:49.380
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

851
00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:53.039
I would actually suggest that all of the Shaverunners thus far

852
00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:58.739
have had that precise, same vision because they've handled it in

853
00:39:58.739 --> 00:40:01.500
different ways. even right up to Chipmill now.

854
00:40:01.559 --> 00:40:06.119
They're much more interested in the story than they are with that

855
00:40:06.119 --> 00:40:07.380
sort of inconvenience.

856
00:40:07.380 --> 00:40:10.380
Yeah, but I mean, if you think about 80s Doctor Who, it would be

857
00:40:10.380 --> 00:40:15.119
create a concept and then just have the Dr. Tegan and Turlow, you

858
00:40:15.119 --> 00:40:19.320
know, getting captured and escaping for 4 episodes, then explosion

859
00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:20.519
and that's our story.

860
00:40:20.579 --> 00:40:27.420
Whereas we have actual proper plot, like proper story happening in

861
00:40:27.420 --> 00:40:28.260
a careful way.

862
00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:32.400
And then the world tailored around that in order to make the story

863
00:40:32.400 --> 00:40:32.760
work.

864
00:40:36.539 --> 00:40:38.940
Doctor Who is in my DNA.

865
00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:41.340
I've always loved it, even underworld.

866
00:40:41.400 --> 00:40:45.659
But the thing that the new series I've always struggled with a

867
00:40:45.659 --> 00:40:49.980
little. is, and what makes it for me a different program, is the

868
00:40:49.980 --> 00:40:52.260
fact that they are 45 minute self-contained episodes.

869
00:40:52.619 --> 00:40:56.940
There's a sort of the fault is either one for me, one direction or

870
00:40:56.940 --> 00:40:57.239
another.

871
00:40:57.300 --> 00:41:00.780
Either they're trying to do a traditional four-part story, but

872
00:41:00.780 --> 00:41:02.219
squeezed into 45 minutes.

873
00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:05.219
And yes, I know you get rid of the standing urgently in corridors

874
00:41:05.219 --> 00:41:08.460
thing, and all the padding in episode 3 being locked up, da da da

875
00:41:08.460 --> 00:41:08.699
da.

876
00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:13.260
But what you lose is the sense of the passage of time, the epic

877
00:41:13.260 --> 00:41:16.860
feel, you know, and the other possibility is that there's just not

878
00:41:16.860 --> 00:41:19.320
enough, which is like Boomtown, much as I keep mentioning Boomtown

879
00:41:19.320 --> 00:41:21.420
because I've just listened to the podcast, but Boomtown is an

880
00:41:21.420 --> 00:41:23.940
example of an episode which I did not like at the time, but I like

881
00:41:23.940 --> 00:41:25.920
a lot more now because I can sort of see how it works.

882
00:41:25.980 --> 00:41:29.760
But it's just the exploration of an idea rather than a four-part

883
00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:31.079
story sort of squished in.

884
00:41:31.139 --> 00:41:35.940
The girl in the fireplace manages to, in 45 minutes, have that

885
00:41:35.940 --> 00:41:39.179
epic feel because of the way the pages of the book are squashed

886
00:41:39.179 --> 00:41:39.900
together.

887
00:41:39.960 --> 00:41:43.079
And when it finished, I sort of had the same feeling as when, you

888
00:41:43.079 --> 00:41:45.539
know, for instance, when I get to the end of, say, the Green Death

889
00:41:45.539 --> 00:41:48.480
where you've gone through all of this period of time with these

890
00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:52.380
characters and they've changed, they've evolved, they think

891
00:41:52.380 --> 00:41:55.380
differently now to what they did at the beginning, and too often

892
00:41:55.380 --> 00:41:57.539
in modern Doctor Who, you just don't feel that.

893
00:41:57.599 --> 00:42:01.260
I still think, though, that the story would work beautifully as a

894
00:42:01.260 --> 00:42:04.800
traditional four-part story, with adding in a few more subplots

895
00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:07.440
you know, bringing in a few other things, having a bit more

896
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:10.860
exploration of the 17th century or the 18th century, 17th century

897
00:42:10.860 --> 00:42:11.159
isn't it?

898
00:42:11.219 --> 00:42:14.699
It would work so beautifully still, but it still works as a

899
00:42:14.699 --> 00:42:15.480
standalone 45.

900
00:42:15.659 --> 00:42:18.000
It's really interesting. what you're saying there.

901
00:42:18.059 --> 00:42:21.000
Like, I mean, because remember as kids, like we used to talk about

902
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:25.380
the different characters in classic Doctor Who who aren't the

903
00:42:25.380 --> 00:42:26.400
companions, right?

904
00:42:26.460 --> 00:42:27.059
Yes.

905
00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:30.960
And very often in modern Doctor Who, who are they?

906
00:42:31.019 --> 00:42:31.739
Who are they?

907
00:42:31.800 --> 00:42:35.519
But here, I always remember Madame de Pompadour from this season.

908
00:42:35.579 --> 00:42:38.760
Like she is like a character who stands out.

909
00:42:38.820 --> 00:42:42.480
She is pretty much the single guest star.

910
00:42:42.539 --> 00:42:46.920
I mean, you've got the handsome king, the very handsome kid.

911
00:42:46.980 --> 00:42:48.539
Is he Louis the 15th or 14th that guy?

912
00:42:48.599 --> 00:42:50.039
Ben Turner, as King Louis.

913
00:42:50.460 --> 00:42:51.239
What did he say that, people?

914
00:42:51.300 --> 00:42:51.960
Gorgeous.

915
00:42:52.380 --> 00:42:54.599
But so we can look him up.

916
00:42:54.659 --> 00:42:57.960
She's the Richard Mace, though, of the episode in that she's the

917
00:42:57.960 --> 00:43:01.800
one character with a name, not just a title, who actually gets an

918
00:43:01.800 --> 00:43:04.679
amount of dialogue, and so there is time to explore her.

919
00:43:04.739 --> 00:43:07.860
Unlike her little person she's strongly.

920
00:43:07.860 --> 00:43:12.360
In the garden. in the gardens, who is Angel Colby from Merlin.

921
00:43:12.420 --> 00:43:13.860
She was Guenevere, yeah.

922
00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:14.099
Yeah.

923
00:43:14.099 --> 00:43:17.039
And last week we had Anthony Stewart Head, who was also in

924
00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:17.639
Merlin.

925
00:43:17.699 --> 00:43:19.980
So a few Merlin connections in these couple of episodes.

926
00:43:20.099 --> 00:43:21.960
So I think that character's called Catherine.

927
00:43:22.019 --> 00:43:24.719
And that's a great scene because it's outdoors.

928
00:43:24.780 --> 00:43:28.320
You know, we're in the studio for most of this, but that's

929
00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:31.619
actually quite a lovely scene and it is a romantic comedy scene

930
00:43:31.619 --> 00:43:35.579
with the doctor ducking down behind, you know, a stone railing in

931
00:43:35.579 --> 00:43:36.539
order to stay out of sight.

932
00:43:36.599 --> 00:43:39.599
It also manages not to whitewash history as well.

933
00:43:39.659 --> 00:43:40.260
Yeah.

934
00:43:40.260 --> 00:43:43.619
I mean, not so much anymore, but certainly in classic costume

935
00:43:43.619 --> 00:43:46.139
drama made by the BBC or ITV.

936
00:43:46.199 --> 00:43:49.079
History was always white, like uniformly white.

937
00:43:49.139 --> 00:43:52.019
And television was uniformly white, and they actively made a

938
00:43:52.019 --> 00:43:54.659
choice there to get a black actress.

939
00:43:54.719 --> 00:43:57.599
And there are plenty of black extras as well in the scenes too.

940
00:43:57.659 --> 00:44:00.059
Yeah, no, like but I think they talked about that in

941
00:44:00.059 --> 00:44:00.599
confidential.

942
00:44:00.659 --> 00:44:01.199
Right.

943
00:44:01.199 --> 00:44:06.000
That they specifically made sure that they had a diverse cast.

944
00:44:06.059 --> 00:44:07.920
Has anyone seen Casanova?

945
00:44:07.980 --> 00:44:08.400
Yeah.

946
00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:10.739
The Russell of D. Davies thing just before Doctor Who.

947
00:44:10.800 --> 00:44:14.219
That's what it feels like to me, because that also, I think, had

948
00:44:14.219 --> 00:44:15.300
that sort of diverse casting.

949
00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:20.159
It's definitely the kind of rehearsal, the audition piece, isn't

950
00:44:20.159 --> 00:44:21.539
it, for Doctor Who?

951
00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:27.960
And he does go on to cast some of the other people in Casanova and

952
00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:30.239
we'll get to that when we talk about fear her.

953
00:44:30.300 --> 00:44:31.739
Oh, yes.

954
00:44:31.800 --> 00:44:35.519
Can I also observe, though, the other comparison I want to make

955
00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:36.539
with Casanova.

956
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:41.340
And one of the things I don't like about the episode is the makeup

957
00:44:41.340 --> 00:44:41.820
and hair.

958
00:44:41.880 --> 00:44:45.960
There's something about it, which feels, it's not, it doesn't feel

959
00:44:45.960 --> 00:44:48.179
authentic, and I know we have...

960
00:44:48.300 --> 00:44:48.539
Yes.

961
00:44:48.599 --> 00:44:51.659
It's like, you know, even, you know, King Louis's early 21st

962
00:44:51.659 --> 00:44:55.679
century stubble and the hair and the makeup of Renette and so on.

963
00:44:55.739 --> 00:45:00.300
It's kind of like a nod to historical, but it's and I know it's a

964
00:45:00.300 --> 00:45:01.800
production choice and it's a stylistic choice.

965
00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:03.900
It's deliberate. a deliberate production.

966
00:45:03.960 --> 00:45:04.440
I know.

967
00:45:04.500 --> 00:45:07.800
And I wonder why they do that sort of thing because for me, it's

968
00:45:07.800 --> 00:45:10.199
like, oh, it doesn't feel as authentic as it could feel.

969
00:45:10.260 --> 00:45:11.280
And even the lighting as well.

970
00:45:11.340 --> 00:45:13.440
I mean, yes, they've made a lot of effort to have shadows and, you

971
00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:15.059
know, as if the whole thing's being lit by candles.

972
00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:17.099
But there's not that flickering.

973
00:45:17.159 --> 00:45:19.139
There's something about it, which I don't think would have been

974
00:45:19.139 --> 00:45:23.340
difficult to achieve, which you see in plenty of other historical

975
00:45:23.340 --> 00:45:26.760
costume dramas of the modern era, whether it's Victoria or what

976
00:45:26.760 --> 00:45:27.059
have you.

977
00:45:27.119 --> 00:45:31.260
Look, I would tend to agree with you on that as somebody who, for

978
00:45:31.260 --> 00:45:33.119
a lot of their life, studied history.

979
00:45:33.179 --> 00:45:36.960
I get that quite often, you know, it's to make it accessible and

980
00:45:36.960 --> 00:45:41.820
it's an active production choice to make it understandable to the

981
00:45:41.820 --> 00:45:42.300
modern audience.

982
00:45:42.300 --> 00:45:44.760
Kind of very peculiar.

983
00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:47.940
Like not the reason, but why this would make it inaccessible.

984
00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:52.559
I actually think authenticity in a historical thing is something

985
00:45:52.559 --> 00:45:53.639
that you're never going to get.

986
00:45:53.699 --> 00:45:56.760
And I don't know that it's something that you should be aiming

987
00:45:56.760 --> 00:45:57.179
for.

988
00:45:57.239 --> 00:46:01.320
In the opposite direction, do you have historical dramas which

989
00:46:01.320 --> 00:46:03.900
show how bad everyone's teeth were?

990
00:46:03.960 --> 00:46:04.559
Yes.

991
00:46:04.619 --> 00:46:05.519
Yeah.

992
00:46:05.519 --> 00:46:08.460
Or the, you know, the faeces.

993
00:46:08.519 --> 00:46:09.659
Yeah, we need more lice.

994
00:46:09.719 --> 00:46:10.559
No, obviously.

995
00:46:10.619 --> 00:46:11.280
No, no, no.

996
00:46:11.340 --> 00:46:14.460
But there is, I suppose, I mean, obviously historical productions

997
00:46:14.460 --> 00:46:18.840
are always, they make certain choices and it's going to be, I mean

998
00:46:18.840 --> 00:46:21.480
the ones which are really gritty and grotty.

999
00:46:21.539 --> 00:46:24.719
And they're the ones which are a bit more romanticised where

1000
00:46:24.719 --> 00:46:27.960
everyone's got good teeth and clean and they don't smell and so

1001
00:46:27.960 --> 00:46:28.199
on.

1002
00:46:28.260 --> 00:46:32.340
But there is, I think this is a choice which for me is just a

1003
00:46:32.340 --> 00:46:36.539
little bit too far. trying to make contemporary.

1004
00:46:36.599 --> 00:46:38.820
And I think that if they are the excuses, and I don't know whether

1005
00:46:38.820 --> 00:46:39.119
they are.

1006
00:46:39.179 --> 00:46:41.820
But if they are the excuses or the rationale, I think it's a very

1007
00:46:41.820 --> 00:46:42.239
poor one.

1008
00:46:42.300 --> 00:46:46.139
They describe it as a rock and roll version of...

1009
00:46:46.139 --> 00:46:49.019
Well, Casanova, see Casanova, tenants wandering around in Casanova

1010
00:46:49.019 --> 00:46:51.900
I seem to recall with like gelled early 21st century hair.

1011
00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:55.260
And, you know, it's kind of like, really.

1012
00:46:55.320 --> 00:46:57.420
I mean, compare it to, and I was comparing it to, because of the

1013
00:46:57.420 --> 00:47:00.119
scene at the end where the horse, you know, comes through the

1014
00:47:00.119 --> 00:47:01.019
glass, the mirror.

1015
00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:04.920
Mask of Mandraga, it's like the mask scene in Mask of Mandraga.

1016
00:47:04.980 --> 00:47:07.800
Now, maybe it's just because I saw that when I was like eight, but

1017
00:47:07.800 --> 00:47:11.760
for me, and that's what, you know, Renaissance is.

1018
00:47:14.820 --> 00:47:19.260
See, I don't have a problem with that aspect of it because I find

1019
00:47:19.260 --> 00:47:22.860
the spaceship to be rather dark and metallic and it's falling

1020
00:47:22.860 --> 00:47:27.179
apart and it's all highly robotic and, you know, with body parts

1021
00:47:27.179 --> 00:47:28.079
and all that sort of thing.

1022
00:47:28.139 --> 00:47:30.960
And then you can't to opposite where it's all romantic and

1023
00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:33.179
brightly lit and love story.

1024
00:47:33.239 --> 00:47:38.280
So, on that level, that's how I see it. to draw that contrast.

1025
00:47:38.340 --> 00:47:38.639
Yes.

1026
00:47:38.699 --> 00:47:42.000
And it's Doctor Who's aesthetic during this period, an aesthetic

1027
00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:46.800
that it's only just shed of everything being kind of hyper real

1028
00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:52.019
and oversaturated and that kind of thing, a slightly cartoonish

1029
00:47:52.019 --> 00:47:56.280
aesthetic, which is what they're going for. then becomes fairy

1030
00:47:56.280 --> 00:47:57.780
tale for a number of years.

1031
00:47:57.840 --> 00:47:58.440
Yeah.

1032
00:47:58.500 --> 00:48:00.179
But it's certainly consistent with that.

1033
00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:01.800
And this is a fairy tale.

1034
00:48:01.860 --> 00:48:03.119
I mean, this is a fairy tale.

1035
00:48:03.179 --> 00:48:06.960
The doctor makes up a technical term for the fireplace

1036
00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:11.760
specifically so that he doesn't have to call it a magic door, which

1037
00:48:11.760 --> 00:48:12.599
is just what it is.

1038
00:48:12.659 --> 00:48:13.380
It's a magic door.

1039
00:48:13.500 --> 00:48:19.380
This is really, it's Moffat cutting his teeth on how he will make

1040
00:48:19.380 --> 00:48:19.800
Doctor Who.

1041
00:48:19.860 --> 00:48:20.460
Yeah.

1042
00:48:20.519 --> 00:48:23.280
Well, I think, I think the way that you go through the magic door

1043
00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:28.559
as well, where there's no sort of silly, um, vortex.

1044
00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:32.400
It just, it just turns around like...

1045
00:48:32.460 --> 00:48:33.300
Yeah, it's wonderful.

1046
00:48:33.360 --> 00:48:34.199
It's great.

1047
00:48:34.260 --> 00:48:38.039
Listeners might be taking note of the times where I have memory

1048
00:48:38.039 --> 00:48:39.719
lapses since last season.

1049
00:48:39.780 --> 00:48:41.699
You know how I've been talking about the fact that I can't

1050
00:48:41.699 --> 00:48:46.139
remember slabs of things for some reason with the new series

1051
00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:46.920
happened again here.

1052
00:48:46.980 --> 00:48:48.360
I was watching it all the way through.

1053
00:48:48.420 --> 00:48:52.440
I'm going, is Rose and Mickey ever really going to meet Madame de

1054
00:48:52.440 --> 00:48:53.099
Pompadour?

1055
00:48:53.159 --> 00:48:56.099
So that entire bedroom sequence where, you know, she talks about

1056
00:48:56.099 --> 00:48:59.159
the slow path and all that, I completely erased it from my head.

1057
00:48:59.219 --> 00:49:00.719
I really like that scene.

1058
00:49:00.780 --> 00:49:01.380
Sounds great.

1059
00:49:01.440 --> 00:49:02.219
It's really good.

1060
00:49:02.280 --> 00:49:04.320
The 2 of those women are excellent.

1061
00:49:04.380 --> 00:49:08.400
And I think again, you know, for the 2nd time this season, they've

1062
00:49:08.400 --> 00:49:12.719
had a sword of historical where they haven't put rose in a frock

1063
00:49:12.719 --> 00:49:16.860
and she's just sort of standing there in the t-shirt opposite.

1064
00:49:16.920 --> 00:49:21.840
Another intelligent young woman dressed in sort of 17th century

1065
00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:22.260
gear.

1066
00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:23.400
I think it's wonderful.

1067
00:49:23.940 --> 00:49:29.519
But no, coming back to this, I enjoyed this as much, as if not

1068
00:49:29.519 --> 00:49:30.659
slightly more than ever.

1069
00:49:30.719 --> 00:49:32.760
It's my joint favourite of this season for me.

1070
00:49:32.940 --> 00:49:36.960
Yeah, I think that my habit of leaving the Moffatt stuff on the

1071
00:49:36.960 --> 00:49:40.739
table really needs to be reevaluated because I thought this was

1072
00:49:40.739 --> 00:49:43.019
this was exceptionally good.

1073
00:49:43.019 --> 00:49:46.739
It's the 1st early new series episode I've watched in many years.

1074
00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:48.599
Usually I'm just watching where we're up to.

1075
00:49:48.659 --> 00:49:51.420
And I came back to it, wondering what to expect.

1076
00:49:51.480 --> 00:49:52.800
And I was actually blown away.

1077
00:49:52.860 --> 00:49:55.800
I thought it was even better than I remember it to be.

1078
00:49:55.860 --> 00:49:59.219
The concept behind it is mature and intelligent.

1079
00:49:59.280 --> 00:50:02.099
It's timey-wimey without being over the top and stupid about it.

1080
00:50:02.159 --> 00:50:04.800
It doesn't dig itself holes that it can't then get out of later

1081
00:50:04.800 --> 00:50:06.900
and just solves with a big explosion.

1082
00:50:06.960 --> 00:50:11.940
I think, as I've said before, the silliness is an aside rather

1083
00:50:11.940 --> 00:50:15.360
than central, and it really is everything that Doctor Who should

1084
00:50:15.360 --> 00:50:15.719
be for me.

1085
00:50:39.780 --> 00:50:42.960
Well, dear listener, we've reached that part of the series where

1086
00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:46.019
it's time for a controversial two part story set on the planet

1087
00:50:46.019 --> 00:50:47.760
Earth or its nearest equivalent.

1088
00:50:47.880 --> 00:50:51.780
We'll see you next week and just a little bit to the left for Rise

1089
00:50:51.780 --> 00:50:52.860
of the Cybermen.

1090
00:50:52.920 --> 00:50:56.579
In the meantime, you can find us at FlightthroughEntirety.com

1091
00:50:56.579 --> 00:50:59.699
flight through entirety on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at FTE

1092
00:50:59.699 --> 00:51:00.780
podcast on Twitter.

1093
00:51:00.840 --> 00:51:04.920
You can also find us at our series 11 flashcast Jody Interterterra

1094
00:51:04.920 --> 00:51:08.460
which is at Jody Interterra.com, Jody Interterra on Apple Podcasts

1095
00:51:08.460 --> 00:51:10.500
and at Jody Interterra on Twitter.

1096
00:51:10.559 --> 00:51:15.059
And we're also available on Bondfinger, our commentary podcast on

1097
00:51:15.059 --> 00:51:17.579
the James Bond franchise and a bunch of other silly things.

1098
00:51:17.639 --> 00:51:20.820
You can find that at bondfinger.com, bondfinger on Facebook and

1099
00:51:20.820 --> 00:51:23.579
Apple Podcasts and at bondfingercast on Twitter.

1100
00:51:23.639 --> 00:51:25.440
Simon, where can people find you?

1101
00:51:25.500 --> 00:51:30.059
You can hear me on FineMusic 102.5 FM in Sydney.

1102
00:51:30.119 --> 00:51:33.239
And if you're not in Sydney, you can stream it at findmusicfm

1103
00:51:31.739 --> 00:51:33.239
com.

1104
00:51:33.300 --> 00:51:36.300
And I have been known to play the Doctor Who theme once or twice

1105
00:51:36.300 --> 00:51:37.019
in my time.

1106
00:51:37.079 --> 00:51:38.579
Brilliant.

1107
00:51:38.639 --> 00:51:39.780
All right.

1108
00:51:39.840 --> 00:51:43.260
So until next time, may you remember to keep your vessel's auto

1109
00:51:43.260 --> 00:51:46.619
repair system switched off at all times.

1110
00:51:46.679 --> 00:51:48.179
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1111
00:51:48.239 --> 00:51:49.440
See you soon.

1112
00:51:49.500 --> 00:51:50.039
Good night.

1113
00:51:50.099 --> 00:51:50.760
Bye for now.

1114
00:51:53.820 --> 00:51:57.179
That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd, we'll be Nathan

1115
00:51:57.179 --> 00:51:59.159
Bottomley, Simon Moore and James Selwood.

1116
00:51:59.219 --> 00:52:02.219
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings Performance by Jane

1117
00:52:02.219 --> 00:52:02.940
Orberg.

1118
00:52:03.000 --> 00:52:06.480
This episode, tropes for want of a better word, was recorded on

1119
00:52:06.480 --> 00:52:10.139
the 26th of January 2019 and released on the 7th of April.

1120
00:52:13.260 --> 00:52:17.039
Of course, Moffat's original much more upsetting premise involved

1121
00:52:17.039 --> 00:52:20.940
the SS Teresa May, which saw the entire population of Britain

1122
00:52:20.940 --> 00:52:24.059
trapped on a spaceship, repeatedly reliving the events of the past

1123
00:52:24.059 --> 00:52:25.019
three years.

1124
00:52:26.219 --> 00:52:29.159
Don't do the story titles, yeah, just...

1125
00:52:29.219 --> 00:52:29.820
Yeah, no, no.

1126
00:52:29.820 --> 00:52:31.500
I'm just seeing if I forgot anything else.

1127
00:52:31.559 --> 00:52:34.079
Um working titles.

1128
00:52:35.460 --> 00:52:45.360
Um, You know, the Moffat lifted the whole description of the

1129
00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:48.960
doctor being what monsters are scared of Paul Cornell.

1130
00:52:49.019 --> 00:52:49.440
Yeah.

1131
00:52:49.500 --> 00:52:51.480
It's a new adventuresism.

1132
00:52:51.539 --> 00:52:52.980
Yeah, love and war.

1133
00:52:53.039 --> 00:52:55.860
Doesn't he say I'm the lord of time at some point in this?

1134
00:52:55.920 --> 00:52:57.059
Not in this, I don't think.

1135
00:52:57.119 --> 00:53:00.659
Yeah, no, he's the king says I'm king of France and he says

1136
00:53:00.659 --> 00:53:01.679
I'm...

1137
00:53:01.739 --> 00:53:03.119
Oh, that, yes, no, that's beautiful.

1138
00:53:03.179 --> 00:53:03.840
I love that.

1139
00:53:03.900 --> 00:53:05.219
Yeah, that's a very that's a very good line.

1140
00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:09.840
There are a few other kind of cultural references in there, like

1141
00:53:09.840 --> 00:53:11.940
with Camilla being referenced.

1142
00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:13.199
When did they get married?

1143
00:53:13.260 --> 00:53:14.940
It wasn't that long before then.

1144
00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:17.579
Actually, well, maybe they're not married.

1145
00:53:17.639 --> 00:53:18.659
Actually, after, I think you're right.

1146
00:53:18.719 --> 00:53:20.699
So she's still the girlfriend mistress at that point.

1147
00:53:20.760 --> 00:53:25.320
And the, um, Mr. Thick, thickety, thick from Thickton, or whatever

1148
00:53:25.320 --> 00:53:28.920
it was, that's, is that, is that sort of just specific?

1149
00:53:28.980 --> 00:53:32.219
Yeah, is that sort of a sort of a black atism or is that?

1150
00:53:32.280 --> 00:53:34.380
Because I mean, I wasn't sure whether it was a unique blackout or

1151
00:53:34.380 --> 00:53:35.579
whether it was just a generic British thing.

1152
00:53:35.639 --> 00:53:38.579
I think it's a specific blackadder thing because it's a frocks and

1153
00:53:38.579 --> 00:53:39.179
wigs story.

1154
00:53:39.239 --> 00:53:40.199
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1155
00:53:40.260 --> 00:53:40.500
Yeah.

1156
00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:45.000
And it's got the sort of the, the, the, the, the feel of the black

1157
00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:45.599
adder.

1158
00:53:45.659 --> 00:53:47.400
Is that when he's drunk?

1159
00:53:47.460 --> 00:53:50.820
Well, when he's playing drunk. to be fair, because I think I think

1160
00:53:50.820 --> 00:53:53.159
that is actually quite good where he comes in pretending he's

1161
00:53:53.159 --> 00:53:56.340
drunk and then so he can pull a swift one on the robots, which we

1162
00:53:56.340 --> 00:53:57.900
haven't actually commented on yet, if I can.

1163
00:53:57.960 --> 00:54:01.320
They are so beautifully designed and the masks, which are almost

1164
00:54:01.320 --> 00:54:03.539
reminiscent of the clowns from Greatest Show, I sort of thought.

1165
00:54:03.599 --> 00:54:05.280
I don't think it's a homage to.

1166
00:54:05.340 --> 00:54:07.019
I think it just happens to be because they're a painted face.

1167
00:54:07.079 --> 00:54:09.059
And the doctor says, oh, you're so beautiful.

1168
00:54:09.119 --> 00:54:12.539
And he's just said that 2 weeks prior to the werewolf as well.

1169
00:54:12.599 --> 00:54:15.000
It was interesting. sort of... that's right.

1170
00:54:15.059 --> 00:54:17.639
Now that you say that, that made it was a bit tedious at the

1171
00:54:17.639 --> 00:54:17.760
time.

1172
00:54:17.820 --> 00:54:19.260
It was like, are we just using the same kind of thing?

1173
00:54:19.260 --> 00:54:20.519
Oh, you're beautiful, but after destroyed it.

1174
00:54:20.579 --> 00:54:24.239
But also, I think you're about to say something similar.

1175
00:54:24.300 --> 00:54:24.599
Sorry.

1176
00:54:24.659 --> 00:54:26.519
It shows how he's different.

1177
00:54:26.579 --> 00:54:28.860
Like his eth, not his ethics.

1178
00:54:28.920 --> 00:54:32.699
His aesthetics are different from the average human.

1179
00:54:32.760 --> 00:54:37.380
Like he's... being, you know, he's being menaced by a werewolf and

1180
00:54:37.380 --> 00:54:41.639
he stops to admire its beauty and it...

1181
00:54:41.639 --> 00:54:45.659
Here they're being menaced by these clockwork soldiers and he's

1182
00:54:45.659 --> 00:54:48.000
saying, oh, he's so beautiful and everything when other people

1183
00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:49.260
just run screaming from the room.

1184
00:54:49.320 --> 00:54:52.380
I mean, they're ludicrously impractical again.

1185
00:54:52.619 --> 00:54:58.920
But the clock thing, you know, in a story about the passage of

1186
00:54:58.920 --> 00:55:03.599
time works terribly well and the broken clock thing is another

1187
00:55:03.599 --> 00:55:06.960
sort of very clever Moffattism where they break the clock so that

1188
00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:08.219
you don't notice them ticking.

1189
00:55:08.280 --> 00:55:11.579
And of course, he'll revisit it at the beginning of series eight.

1190
00:55:11.639 --> 00:55:12.420
Yeah.

1191
00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:17.880
Well, in fact, the villains in sort of exaggerated masks thing

1192
00:55:17.880 --> 00:55:21.780
that's a well that he'll go back to a few more times, I think

1193
00:55:21.780 --> 00:55:23.280
before he's done with the show.

1194
00:55:23.340 --> 00:55:27.599
But that's only, I think, because it's a good idea.

1195
00:55:27.659 --> 00:55:33.539
And when their masks are off, where it's that sort of glass ovoid

1196
00:55:33.539 --> 00:55:39.599
with with actual proper moving clockwork in it, I just think looks

1197
00:55:39.599 --> 00:55:41.400
incredible, just looks wonderful.

1198
00:55:42.840 --> 00:55:50.400
I think, um, like you and I have both said, yeah, had a conclusing

1199
00:55:50.400 --> 00:55:52.860
concluding thing, James, do you want to say something and then

1200
00:55:52.860 --> 00:55:55.079
Simon say something or are you good?