WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:17:42 1 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:47.640 Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that actually does have another 10 miles of cable lying around, and you won't believe what we've been doing with it. 2 00:00:47.700 --> 00:00:48.780 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:48.840 --> 00:00:50.759 I'm Todd, and I'm Peter. 4 00:00:50.820 --> 00:00:51.659 Promise I won't go mad. 5 00:00:51.719 --> 00:00:58.740 Well, after a week of sitting around waiting, nothing seems to be coming out of this big hole, and we've only got 55 minutes of oxygen left. 6 00:00:58.799 --> 00:01:05.040 So let's spend our last few moments on earth discussing the devil, metaphysics and the Satan pit. 7 00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:36.780 So, Todd, what is the beast? 8 00:01:37.140 --> 00:01:39.719 Why are you asking me this question? 9 00:01:39.840 --> 00:01:42.540 Well, I know that you're a man of strong metaphysical convictions. 10 00:01:43.920 --> 00:01:45.780 What do you think it is? 11 00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:47.939 Fenrick. 12 00:01:48.239 --> 00:01:50.819 He is actually from before time. 13 00:01:50.879 --> 00:02:07.200 It's sort of weird that the doctor is so dogmatic about things not being from before the dawn of time where, presumably, the beast was hanging around on that spaceship in terminus or something, you know, like there's plenty of things from before the Grandfather of the Garm. 14 00:02:07.260 --> 00:02:08.039 Yeah that's right. 15 00:02:08.099 --> 00:02:08.939 That's right. 16 00:02:09.060 --> 00:02:10.319 Look, I don't know. 17 00:02:10.379 --> 00:02:15.900 Like, I mean, does they go through a litany of what he could be, like, set and Satan. 18 00:02:15.900 --> 00:02:17.520 So there's a list of names. 19 00:02:17.580 --> 00:02:28.500 So as the oud sort of advance up the stairs, they talk about badon, which is an old name for the devil and, you know, all of the names for the devil and things. 20 00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:37.860 And then the doctor speculates that every culture has a devil and he mentions the people of Demos and the people of Draconia. 21 00:02:37.860 --> 00:02:38.580 With horns. 22 00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:41.400 Yeah, with horns, a horned beast. 23 00:02:41.460 --> 00:02:53.219 They should have had a little shout back to Miss Hawthorne, who made much the same point, and maybe they could have pulled out the doctor's old sort of slide carrousel with horns. 24 00:02:53.340 --> 00:02:54.300 Thornhawk. 25 00:02:54.419 --> 00:03:07.259 See, that's one of the clever things about this script is that there are these little nods to classic who, in dialogue that, you know, if you're watching this for the 1st time, it's a piece of dialogue where you pick up some things and other things are just there. 26 00:03:07.319 --> 00:03:11.219 But for us as classic series fans, it's the last thing on the cake, which I always love. 27 00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:16.620 Yeah, that bit of dialogue where he mentions all of those cultures that have the devil in them. 28 00:03:16.680 --> 00:03:20.340 There could have been any number of made up planets and it doesn't matter. 29 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:24.419 So just sticking Draconia and Damos in there is really good. 30 00:03:24.479 --> 00:03:28.259 And it kind of addresses the question, you know, about the devil. 31 00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:36.300 There's a moment where Rose says to the doctor, you know, is there really a devil, tell me there's no devil, and he doesn't answer it. 32 00:03:36.419 --> 00:03:43.259 And all I could think about was pertwe telling Joe, like kind of telling Joe off for believing in a sort of mythical devil. 33 00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:46.259 It's nice because the Dr. Wayne doesn't dress it. 34 00:03:46.319 --> 00:03:48.599 He just goes very quiet and says, keep it together, Rose. 35 00:03:48.659 --> 00:03:49.979 It's a really nice moment. 36 00:03:50.099 --> 00:03:51.599 Yeah he doesn't answer it. 37 00:03:51.659 --> 00:04:03.780 And there is this feeling, I think, that the beast is in some ways just an idea that the devil is an idea that appears in sort of different cultures. 38 00:04:03.840 --> 00:04:13.620 And so the beast isn't sort of just a sort of big old monster or anything, but that he exists in the sort of space where ideas exist. 39 00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:15.240 That's the doctor's conclusion. 40 00:04:15.300 --> 00:04:16.920 Maybe the devil's an idea. 41 00:04:16.980 --> 00:04:18.839 And that's all he is in the end. 42 00:04:18.899 --> 00:04:23.639 And I like that the episode poses the questions and then talks about them, but doesn't provide any answers. 43 00:04:23.699 --> 00:04:26.399 See, I didn't like that when I originally watched it. 44 00:04:26.459 --> 00:04:32.819 Like, I just dislike it when things try to deal with, is there a devil or not? 45 00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:35.279 Like, let's give a definitive answer. 46 00:04:35.339 --> 00:04:36.959 Doctor Who doesn't generally go there? 47 00:04:37.079 --> 00:04:44.339 And I'm fine with it now, just like to say, like, I like the fact that we don't get a definitive answer and there is a discussion. 48 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:45.720 I think it's really good. 49 00:04:45.779 --> 00:04:49.379 But initially I was, that was one of the things I didn't like about this particular episode. 50 00:04:49.439 --> 00:04:50.279 I was going, oh, really? 51 00:04:50.339 --> 00:04:58.860 We have to go there and sort of not answer it if we're going to pose the question, which, as you know, I'm pretty black and white with things and like my world to be in a nice little box. 52 00:04:58.920 --> 00:04:59.579 So. 53 00:04:59.699 --> 00:05:08.040 Well, I mean, I actually think that the weakest part of it is where they lampshade it in that final scene, where the doctor says, I don't know, and that's okay. 54 00:05:08.100 --> 00:05:15.959 You know, like, I don't think we needed to be told that or needed to be reassured that we were deliberately not being told who the beast was. 55 00:05:16.019 --> 00:05:23.639 And I think that Doctor Who, being pinned down and having a very definite cosmology, I don't like that. 56 00:05:23.699 --> 00:05:30.480 It's a show that's been going for 50 years under the stewardship of, you know, many, many different creative teams. 57 00:05:30.540 --> 00:05:34.379 And so as a result, it's cosmology as a giant mess. 58 00:05:34.379 --> 00:05:38.040 And the show just, I think, should at this point just lean into that. 59 00:05:38.100 --> 00:05:45.660 Well, the doctor has that amazing line where he says, um, his take on religion is, I believe we haven't seen everything and that's why I keep travelling. 60 00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:47.639 I mean, that's a great idea of it. 61 00:05:47.699 --> 00:05:51.000 And so little of Doctor Who is about faith and religion. 62 00:05:51.060 --> 00:05:54.060 I mean, you know, unless you want to count the excellence or something like that. 63 00:05:54.120 --> 00:06:13.800 Well, I think I made this point before, that Russell gives religion back to Doctor Who, that he makes it a thing, whereas the only religious people who would appear in Doctor Who, in the classic era, were, you know, high priests who wanted to kill you, the followers of Deimos, you know, there wasn't proper religion there. 64 00:06:14.279 --> 00:06:18.240 Yeah, some vicars who don't believe in God anymore. 65 00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:20.279 Or other master. 66 00:06:20.459 --> 00:06:22.199 Well, both. 67 00:06:22.319 --> 00:06:40.620 And so it is nice to have the doctor list a whole heap of religions, and then we hear about Ida's religion, and it's given a name, and the doctor asks her if there's a devil in her religion, and she says, no, we just believe in the evil that men do. 68 00:06:40.680 --> 00:06:48.060 And in a religious context, men, you know, because sacred texts use old-fashioned language and stuff. 69 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:50.939 Men is sometimes used to refer to people. 70 00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:53.399 But the way that she delivers that line. 71 00:06:53.459 --> 00:07:09.060 And the fact that it's her mother's religion and the fact that she has to run away from her father, we discover, from her backstory, she says the line as if it's men, the evil that men, male adults do. 72 00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:10.500 Yeah. 73 00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:14.759 And and there is something here about human evil. 74 00:07:14.819 --> 00:07:23.639 The devil is an idea or a concept, but the real evil that we see in the world is the result of human action. 75 00:07:23.699 --> 00:07:46.079 And when Ida says the evil that men do is the devil in her religion, the doctor says, well, it's the same thing in the end, that you can have a mystical representation of evil that's personified and part of your mythology, but talking about that is really a way of talking about, you know, the evil that people do. 76 00:07:46.139 --> 00:07:58.860 I think, um, as well, when she pauses, when she mentions her mum, and just, just for a moment, reflects and says, my old mum, and you know that it's a really illuminating character moment, but it plays into that. 77 00:07:59.100 --> 00:08:07.560 Yeah, maybe let's move on and talk about that scene because we've had the doctor and Ida stranded down the pit. 78 00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:17.339 They can't get back now because the devil has somehow telekinetically broken the cable and there's no way for them to get back. 79 00:08:17.399 --> 00:08:27.480 And so they're stranded down in the pit for much of the episode, the doctor and Rose are separated and the doctors left with Ida. 80 00:08:27.540 --> 00:08:33.360 And we talked a little bit about Ida last week, but she's one of those brilliant companions in waiting. 81 00:08:33.419 --> 00:08:42.480 Uh, so you think like Dr. Todd in Kinder or um, Amelia in The Stones of Blood, and she works so well as companion for this doctor. 82 00:08:42.539 --> 00:08:44.639 It's an extraordinary performance. 83 00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:49.799 Well, I'm just sitting here listening to what you're having to say about it. 84 00:08:49.860 --> 00:08:51.539 I don't know. 85 00:08:51.600 --> 00:09:08.940 I think whenever I watch this, and it happened again with this episode, is that when they're down there talking, I'm always looking at the visuals all around them, because when that ball goes up and it illuminates and when they're walking through and how cavernous it is, I just love this empty space. 86 00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:19.200 There's a beautiful shot, I think, where, you know, the doctor and Ida are quite small in the frame and we look off into the distance and there's these sort of rock bridges over a sort of giant chasm. 87 00:09:19.259 --> 00:09:23.220 It looks so beautiful and I think they do a great job. 88 00:09:23.279 --> 00:09:32.580 We should perhaps have mentioned this last week of integrating, you know, those giant dragon sculptures and that big temple. 89 00:09:32.639 --> 00:09:38.159 They integrate that, which is clearly a CG element into the footage of the quarry. 90 00:09:38.220 --> 00:09:39.899 And it looks incredible. 91 00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:41.340 Yeah, it's much like time in the Rani, really. 92 00:09:41.460 --> 00:09:45.779 It's very much like I was actually thinking how much like time. 93 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:49.259 I mean, this story could only have been improved by melon a bubble trap going past. 94 00:09:49.320 --> 00:09:52.440 I mean, what beautiful location filming it is. 95 00:09:52.500 --> 00:09:53.220 They shoot at night. 96 00:09:53.279 --> 00:09:54.360 It's just a quarry wall. 97 00:09:54.419 --> 00:09:56.759 And yet they make it look like an underground cavern. 98 00:09:56.820 --> 00:09:58.919 And there's something they do to the sound as well. 99 00:09:58.980 --> 00:10:04.620 There's a very distinctive echo to it, which makes it sound totally authentic. 100 00:10:04.679 --> 00:10:08.220 Except that it doesn't make much sense because there's no air outside. 101 00:10:08.279 --> 00:10:11.220 But it works because it makes it feel like they're in a cave. 102 00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:12.000 Yeah. 103 00:10:16.379 --> 00:10:19.379 Can we go back to the cliffhanger resolution? 104 00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:21.299 Yeah, it's a total cheat, isn't it? 105 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:29.340 Yes It's another one of these fake outs, like, you know, the camera is riding out of the pit, but is it just the essence of the thing? 106 00:10:29.399 --> 00:10:30.059 it's just the camera. 107 00:10:30.120 --> 00:10:30.779 It's just the camera. 108 00:10:30.899 --> 00:10:31.980 So, yeah. 109 00:10:32.039 --> 00:10:33.840 Yeah, nothing's actually rising. 110 00:10:33.899 --> 00:10:35.519 And, you know, he gloats. 111 00:10:35.580 --> 00:10:37.200 Doesn't the beast gloat. 112 00:10:37.259 --> 00:10:41.340 Gabriel Wolf gloats about escaping at the end of the last episode. 113 00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:43.860 But then he doesn't and he's still trapped. 114 00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:47.039 I like to think that the tin vagabonds stepped in and say... 115 00:10:47.039 --> 00:10:50.639 Does he say the pit is open and I am free? 116 00:10:50.700 --> 00:10:52.139 Yeah, yeah, but he's not free. 117 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:57.779 I mean, his mind is free and I guess he's already sort of free. 118 00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:03.779 And so maybe the opening of the pit is what allows him to completely possess the ood properly. 119 00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:05.759 I guess that's how we have to read it. 120 00:11:05.820 --> 00:11:07.679 He's free through Toby and the Ud. 121 00:11:07.740 --> 00:11:08.580 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 122 00:11:08.639 --> 00:11:09.600 Not free. 123 00:11:09.659 --> 00:11:10.259 No. 124 00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:17.879 And it's not really made clear until the end and deliberately not made clear that the mind of the beast and the body of the beast are different. 125 00:11:17.940 --> 00:11:30.960 So the beast itself is still sort of chained up fabulously downstairs while its mind is free to take over the Ude and start sort of killing people. 1st watch, that was something that I didn't really pick up on. 126 00:11:31.019 --> 00:11:32.220 Like, I couldn't work it out. 127 00:11:32.279 --> 00:11:33.960 Yeah, I don't think it's very clear. 128 00:11:34.019 --> 00:11:35.940 But it's perfectly fine. 129 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:39.120 Like, you know, I really like the fact that that's the way it's done. 130 00:11:39.179 --> 00:11:42.179 And of course, also with that cliffhanger resolution. 131 00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:44.399 We also kill off the female guard very quickly as well. 132 00:11:44.879 --> 00:11:47.220 Then he stands by Gormlessly. 133 00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:58.620 Yeah, well, we talked about that last week and it is a horrible scene because the camera is straight on her face and we see her reaction and her scream and, you know, her kind of shaking and stuff. 134 00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:00.960 So it's it is kind of horrible. 135 00:12:01.019 --> 00:12:10.980 But no one stops from in it and sort of registers her name and has a little bit of a speech and says 2 K 5 X one or whatever and, you know, does a little tribute. 136 00:12:11.100 --> 00:12:18.299 Well, assume on the on the pecking order when Zach gives his list at the end and he goes through the crew and then they come after the end. 137 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:19.200 Yeah, that's right. 138 00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:20.159 They're at the very end. 139 00:12:20.279 --> 00:12:22.320 After basic slave guards. 140 00:12:28.620 --> 00:12:31.019 The Beast is such a great malevolent villain. 141 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:38.039 He's dripping with malevolence and everything that he says is designed to make people uneasy. 142 00:12:38.100 --> 00:12:42.299 Like when he has that little pep talk with everyone over the comms before the cable snapped. 143 00:12:42.360 --> 00:12:44.220 He says, this planet is your grave. 144 00:12:44.220 --> 00:12:44.879 And you think, ooh. 145 00:12:44.940 --> 00:12:52.799 Even the bit too, where he seems to know much more about our characters than we do, and he goes through and gives a secret to each of them. 146 00:12:52.860 --> 00:12:56.639 So like Jefferson's wife must have died. 147 00:12:56.700 --> 00:12:58.440 Like the way that I read it. 148 00:12:58.559 --> 00:12:59.279 She never did. 149 00:12:59.340 --> 00:13:07.259 No, she never forgave you, which means that she's not going to do it in the future because she's lost the chance because she's dead. 150 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:27.480 But I also think too, there's a kind of sort of horror film trope. where the devil actually knows that because his wife is down here in hell with her being tortured, you know, like, yeah, you know, there's something kind of horrible about that, the reason that the devil knows is because the devil lives in the underworld and that's where dead people are. 151 00:13:27.539 --> 00:13:28.919 And so he knows that. 152 00:13:28.980 --> 00:13:30.720 But he knows about everyone. 153 00:13:30.779 --> 00:13:35.580 And the thing where Toby's the virgin. 154 00:13:35.639 --> 00:13:36.059 Yeah. 155 00:13:36.120 --> 00:13:37.980 Do you know my theory about this? 156 00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:50.039 I have no evidence to support this, but it feels like where Toby's the Virgin and Danny's the little boy who lied, it feels more naturally that it should have been reversed because Danny is a more authentic virgin than Toby is. 157 00:13:50.100 --> 00:13:51.539 Because he's a sort of nerd. 158 00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:53.580 He's a nerd and he's jishery. 159 00:13:53.639 --> 00:13:56.759 And Toby, because he's shifty, looks like the little boy who lies. 160 00:13:56.879 --> 00:13:58.919 So it's very interesting that that's not the case. 161 00:13:58.980 --> 00:14:06.120 Although I think that it's sort of a rustly detail to do something surprising there. 162 00:14:06.179 --> 00:14:12.480 And because we do see Toby actually quite withdrawn and shy. 163 00:14:12.539 --> 00:14:25.679 Like Danny is much more sort of friendly and gregarious and confident than Toby, who is, you know, sort of classically handsome and built and all of those sorts of things, but is super kind of withdrawn. 164 00:14:25.799 --> 00:14:34.139 It's interesting that the beast is basically listing character flaws as they go with a little boy who, like, is being a virgin, a character floor. 165 00:14:34.200 --> 00:14:36.419 He's looking for something that shames the characters. 166 00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:38.460 Yeah, it is a weird choice. 167 00:14:38.519 --> 00:14:51.120 I also think that we get something about Ida's father, like she runs away from, you know, the scientist who runs away from daddy and we've already talked about that conversation that she has about her mother. 168 00:14:51.179 --> 00:14:59.820 So it does sound like the father has perhaps abused her or mistreated her mother, but he's no longer around. 169 00:14:59.820 --> 00:15:06.659 And the accusation that the beast makes is that she's still running away from that part of her childhood. 170 00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:16.379 And she has the moment with the doctor in the lift where the doctor's trying to convince them that the beast is playing them and she looks utterly shocked and she says to the doctor, how did it know about my father? 171 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:34.740 That's really good too, because I think the doctor came into the base in the 1st episode and was, you know, banging on about how brave and wonderful and crazy and beautiful and indomitable they all are in that sort of usual sort of tendency way. 172 00:15:34.799 --> 00:15:39.360 But here he uses that speech to counter what the beast says. 173 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:41.039 You people are brave. 174 00:15:41.100 --> 00:15:43.019 You are friends with one another. 175 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:45.600 The beast is on its own, but we're not. 176 00:15:45.659 --> 00:15:48.779 There's another story that can be told about you. 177 00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:51.600 And that's the story that I want you to hang on to now. 178 00:15:51.659 --> 00:15:52.679 I think it's really good. 179 00:15:52.740 --> 00:15:55.139 Yeah, it's superbly written. 180 00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:59.039 And talking about Ida and the way that she reacts. 181 00:15:59.100 --> 00:16:06.120 She pleads later on, she says, I don't want to die on my own, which is, you know, of course, we can all be on board with that. 182 00:16:06.179 --> 00:16:11.940 But that's kind of as good an explanation of having faith in a higher being as I've heard. 183 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:13.019 You don't want to die alone. 184 00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:14.100 You don't want to think there's nothing. 185 00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:26.940 In fact, that scene is beautifully well played as well, because she says that to try and persuade the doctor not to jump down the pit, and his response is to say, I know, but he's going to do that anyway. 186 00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:36.600 There's a melancholy that infuses last week and particularly this week because this week's episode narrows its focus down onto the characters. 187 00:16:36.659 --> 00:16:38.460 It's not all about the world building. 188 00:16:38.519 --> 00:16:48.179 There's a morning, kind of a sense, I spoke last week about the fact that they're all alone, and these people really are alone, even though they're together, they're all struggling with their own demons. 189 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:50.820 They're all desperately battling to get out of it. 190 00:16:50.879 --> 00:16:54.960 There's something very dark and dismal about the feeling the episodes. 191 00:16:55.019 --> 00:16:59.879 Well, I mean, particularly since Ida and the doctor have the sort of clock running out. 192 00:16:59.940 --> 00:17:02.639 They've got, you know, less than an hour of oxygen. 193 00:17:02.700 --> 00:17:09.180 There's no way that they can be rescued, and for a long time they're out of communication with a base upstairs. 194 00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:18.000 And the fact that they have the time to just have a quiet moment and discuss what's going on is so nice and so rare. 195 00:17:18.059 --> 00:17:31.019 I think there's an instinct among classic Doctor Who fans to wish that any given sort of 42 minute story was actually a 2 parter, you know, wouldn't victory of the have been great if it was a two-parter. 196 00:17:31.079 --> 00:17:33.779 Well, no, we'd have had to watch another 42 minutes of it. 197 00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:36.119 We would have preferred a 0 parts. 198 00:17:36.180 --> 00:17:45.420 But here I can see why people say that because there is a moment for sort of proper character stuff. 199 00:17:45.539 --> 00:17:52.619 And that observation about falling, you know, they're at the side of the pit and go on, go on, go over, go on. 200 00:17:52.680 --> 00:18:05.640 Yeah, yeah, that thing where you where you're standing at the edge of a cliff and you think I could just jump and all that's between me and jumping and falling is a decision that I could make. 201 00:18:05.700 --> 00:18:07.920 You see it in your mind's eye, don't you? 202 00:18:07.980 --> 00:18:09.240 The fact of you doing that. 203 00:18:09.299 --> 00:18:10.079 Yeah. 204 00:18:10.140 --> 00:18:18.299 And that wonderful thing where the doctor's falling and that's the moment where they reestablish communication with the base upstairs. 205 00:18:18.299 --> 00:18:22.859 And, you know, Ida has to say he's fallen. couldn't stop him. 206 00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:23.640 It's so good. 207 00:18:23.700 --> 00:18:26.039 There's something about the pacing of this story. 208 00:18:26.099 --> 00:18:30.059 I think it's perfectly paced, maybe the most perfectly paced 2 parter of the series. 209 00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:32.460 Um, there's, it rattles along. 210 00:18:32.519 --> 00:18:34.680 It keeps moving from one action piece to the next. 211 00:18:34.740 --> 00:18:39.660 And yet it stops every time to have a discussion about the important things that make you feel it. 212 00:18:39.720 --> 00:18:45.599 And so that scene you were talking about standing on the edge of the pit, that would never be in a single episode. 213 00:18:45.660 --> 00:18:48.180 It just, it's too long and too involved. 214 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:49.619 It holds up the story. 215 00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:51.480 But here, it propels the story. 216 00:18:55.680 --> 00:19:04.500 I just thought it was really interesting that our Beast identifies the doctor as the killer of his own kind. 217 00:19:04.619 --> 00:19:05.640 Oh, yeah. 218 00:19:05.640 --> 00:19:07.740 And he talks, everybody's in the past. 219 00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:11.279 It's all about their history, but for Rose, it's the lost girl. 220 00:19:11.339 --> 00:19:14.160 The valiant child who will die in battle very soon. 221 00:19:14.220 --> 00:19:20.400 She's only one that he makes a prediction of for the future, like, you know, foreshadowing a few weeks time. 222 00:19:20.700 --> 00:19:26.700 I think that's partly an artefact of the fact that this is shot after Army of Ghosts and Doomsday. 223 00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:29.700 So they decide to put a bit of a prophecy in there. 224 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:32.759 She's really rattled by it too. 225 00:19:32.819 --> 00:19:35.640 And the doctor twice has to reassure her that it's not going to happen. 226 00:19:35.700 --> 00:19:41.220 Yeah, there was that feint at the start of army of ghosts where Rose says in the teaser, this was the day that I died. 227 00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:45.720 So I think that that might have been a promotional point, will she won't she die? 228 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:49.200 We know she's leaving, don't we, at this point? 229 00:19:49.259 --> 00:19:49.559 Yes. 230 00:19:49.619 --> 00:19:49.859 Yeah. 231 00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:51.779 When did they announce that? 232 00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:59.460 Um, I think it might have been early in series 2 because Billy was always going to come back for the 1st 6 episodes. 233 00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:02.940 And so I think she was going to depart on the age of steel. 234 00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:06.660 But then early on, she decided that no, she'd do the entire season. 235 00:20:06.660 --> 00:20:08.460 And so they had the extra time to play with. 236 00:20:08.519 --> 00:20:11.099 But I think she might have had Mickey's departure. 237 00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:12.779 I said Mickey got hers. 238 00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:13.440 Right. 239 00:20:13.500 --> 00:20:13.859 Okay. 240 00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:15.539 Does Rose swear in this episode? 241 00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:16.920 You know when they have that static search? 242 00:20:16.980 --> 00:20:18.779 Yeah, yeah, yeah, she's about to swear. 243 00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:22.500 And I think the doctor said, oh, you know, watch out. 244 00:20:22.619 --> 00:20:24.900 I like it when they do those sort of things. 245 00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:36.900 Well, she's super angry at him and super, you know, I actually really like the 2 of them when they're apart when they separated like this, you know, her concern for him is really, is really good. 246 00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:39.720 And she's super massively competent in this one, isn't she? 247 00:20:39.779 --> 00:20:41.700 Well, she gets to inspire her crew. 248 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:49.259 Yeah. and work with our captain to go along all the little the ventilation shafts. 249 00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:49.680 Yes. 250 00:20:49.740 --> 00:21:07.980 Can I just say of all the Hinchcliffeness of this story, and of course, you know, Matt's a huge Philip Hinchcliffe fan, I think he's more a Hinchcliffe Fearer fan than he is of Doctor Who, in a wider sense, for all the kind of Hinchcliffe tropes of like the ancient evil coming back for revenge or what's your thing, Nathan? 251 00:21:07.980 --> 00:21:09.599 Not sufficiently executed enough. 252 00:21:09.660 --> 00:21:20.220 So this is our 2nd story in a row where we have a villain who whose people tried to kind of execute or imprison it. but didn't do a very good job of it. 253 00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:21.299 And so they've escaped. 254 00:21:21.420 --> 00:21:27.180 And so it's like Eldrad or Su Tech or, you know, it's a very Hinge Cliff kind of trove. 255 00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:29.700 And I mean, what are we to do if you've got 2 episodes? 256 00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:30.720 And the 1st one, you set that up. 257 00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:32.579 The 2nd one you've got to have ventilation charts. 258 00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:33.480 You do, yeah. 259 00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:37.319 I mean, and you know, possibly a rocket that provides an independent power source. 260 00:21:37.380 --> 00:21:39.240 But, you know, it's all good, steel for the best. 261 00:21:39.299 --> 00:21:50.339 I love the fact that with these ventilation shafts, they actually have to put the air into the ventilation shafts in different sections, normally, you know, the air's just already in there. and the ud are suddenly after them. 262 00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:57.660 And Danny gets so like, there's one sequence there where he's really just like losing it. 263 00:21:57.720 --> 00:21:58.200 Oh, yeah. 264 00:21:58.259 --> 00:22:12.240 And I love the fact that they get to work in through the captain that, you know, he's talking about the torch with archive when he's talking, you know, doing his little talking to them and yeah, and all the jokes about their butts and stuff. 265 00:22:12.299 --> 00:22:13.019 Yeah, yeah. 266 00:22:13.079 --> 00:22:14.640 Why am I on that again? 267 00:22:14.819 --> 00:22:16.740 Last week, this week. 268 00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:17.819 Oh my goodness, I'll shut up now. 269 00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:23.339 In fact, the oud are properly scary in the ventilation shaft, just the way that they walk with their forearms. 270 00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:24.299 Very quickly. 271 00:22:24.299 --> 00:22:25.200 Yeah, yeah. 272 00:22:25.259 --> 00:22:27.960 It's not a sort of slow moving thing that you've got to get away from. 273 00:22:28.019 --> 00:22:35.519 And we get the death of Jefferson, which again is another death that really properly lands, like Scooty last week. 274 00:22:35.579 --> 00:22:37.259 And we learn his 1st name, John. 275 00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:38.519 John, yeah, yeah. 276 00:22:38.579 --> 00:22:40.019 It's really upsetting. 277 00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:41.339 I actually find it really upsetting. 278 00:22:41.400 --> 00:22:44.880 I think it's a great performance by Danny Webb as an older actor. 279 00:22:44.940 --> 00:22:45.420 Yeah. 280 00:22:45.420 --> 00:22:50.519 He's sort of like a forerunner to Graham, like in the current series. 281 00:22:50.579 --> 00:22:55.680 Like I really do think that he had the potential to be with the doctor. in some way, you know? 282 00:22:55.740 --> 00:23:03.240 He's very good, and he does get to do that thing where he's going to shoot Toby, and, you know, Rose has to interpose herself between the 2 of them. 283 00:23:03.299 --> 00:23:09.059 You know, he's grizzled and tough, but he dies saving them. 284 00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:22.500 And there's a very nicely framed scene with Toby sat down, you know, when he's recovering from all of that, and Rose and Jefferson in the background, and Rose is doing things at the console, and Jefferson is just staring at Toby throughout the entire thing. 285 00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:23.819 It's really quite unsettling. 286 00:23:23.940 --> 00:23:29.339 I just think it's so convenient that Toby is just accepted like he's not possessed anymore. 287 00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:30.660 Doesn't the doctor say something about that? 288 00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:34.200 Oh, Rose says he's clean or whatever. 289 00:23:34.259 --> 00:23:35.400 It's not the doctor. 290 00:23:35.460 --> 00:23:46.380 And it's like one of those convenient things where it's like, oh, yes, he's clean. you know he's never going to be possessed again. one of those convenient things where the TARDIS has fallen down into the middle of the planet just for the doctor to lean back on it. 291 00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:49.619 There's a couple of convenient things in this. 292 00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:58.259 I actually think it's sort of sold because because we do see that special effect of all the all of the letters, you know, coming off him into the Oude. absolutely. 293 00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:05.099 And Doctor Who usually sets it up as a Doctor Who troop, you know, people are possessed, but then once they're no longer possessed, that's fine. 294 00:24:05.160 --> 00:24:12.359 I mean, I can't think of another story where someone is just suddenly possessed again, usually it does pass out of them, whereas here it doesn't. 295 00:24:12.420 --> 00:24:21.180 I actually think there's one fantastic moment, which is where they're emerging from the ventilation shafts into the sort of oud control area. 296 00:24:21.240 --> 00:24:35.640 And the oud nearly catch up with Toby, who's doing a sort of giant panic, and then he just turns to the oud, and he's got the red contact lenses in and he puts his finger to his lips and does the most terrifying smile. 297 00:24:35.700 --> 00:24:37.680 And it really is super wonderful. 298 00:24:37.740 --> 00:24:45.059 And then later on, I think he gets a hug from Rose or something and he kind of looks really, really uncomfortable and doesn't like it at all. 299 00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:48.059 And I think that is just wonderful. 300 00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:50.279 And I don't think he's possessed again. 301 00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:59.160 I think he's got Gabriel Wolfe in his head the entire time and he's just pretending not to be under its influence anymore. 302 00:24:59.220 --> 00:25:00.119 From that point. 303 00:25:00.180 --> 00:25:02.400 Yeah, no, I agree with you from that point. 304 00:25:02.460 --> 00:25:06.839 He is totally taken over and he is just Toby is dead. 305 00:25:06.900 --> 00:25:08.519 Yeah, he's super fantastic. 306 00:25:08.579 --> 00:25:09.420 He's really really good. 307 00:25:09.480 --> 00:25:14.279 I wish I had Gabriel Wolf in my head all the time. imagine Yeah, I do. 308 00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:28.380 So the other thing that I want to talk about is this is a very standard base under siege at this point where you have monsters running amok, killing people one by one and we have to do things to kind of defeat them. 309 00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:52.980 And I think that it's super interesting that what we actually have an oppressed race of people who are mistreated and disregarded by our main human characters, doing what perhaps they have every right to do, which is to rise up and overthrow their oppressors. 310 00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:55.859 That's the side the doctor normally is on. 311 00:25:56.099 --> 00:26:04.140 And they're inspired to do that by the devil, who himself is a rebel. you know, in Christian mythology. 312 00:26:04.200 --> 00:26:05.460 He rebels against God. 313 00:26:05.519 --> 00:26:13.079 He takes a 3rd of the angels with him and is thrown out of heaven for his pride and his pride is sort of wanting to take God's place. 314 00:26:13.140 --> 00:26:17.519 The devil has always been in rebellion against God. 315 00:26:17.579 --> 00:26:33.660 And here are these, here are these Oud, who are slaves, who are just slaves, and they rise up, but the moment they do that, they're evil, and they're a threat, and we're on the side of the people who are oppressing them. 316 00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:38.819 And there is something uncomfortable about that, I think. 317 00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:45.299 And I think it's something, I don't know whether it's conscious or deliberate or not, but I think it works really, really well. 318 00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:53.039 There's a kind of, there's a kind of moral indistinctness about what's going on despite the fact that one of the characters is openly the devil. 319 00:26:53.099 --> 00:26:54.839 So do you feel that when you watch it? 320 00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:58.019 I don't normally, but I really felt it this time. 321 00:26:58.079 --> 00:27:00.660 Like the 2nd time I watched it in preparation for this. 322 00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:07.619 I thought that it was a really kind of interesting choice. 323 00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:10.380 And I do think it's the same choice that we make in robots of death. 324 00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:16.259 So robots of death is another base under siege where the slaves rise up and start killing their masters. 325 00:27:16.380 --> 00:27:18.059 And so what do we do? 326 00:27:18.059 --> 00:27:23.579 Well, we have to protect the masters and make sure the slaves are all killed so that the rebellion stops. 327 00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:32.759 And their leader is someone who's rebelling against this sort of stratified society and is trying to free his brothers from their oppression. 328 00:27:32.819 --> 00:27:38.700 And I don't know whether it was because I 1st watched Robots of Death when I was like 10 and didn't pick any of that up. 329 00:27:38.759 --> 00:27:40.680 So it all sort of seems to make good sense. 330 00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:58.140 Whereas here, I think, I think that in a story which is about human evil and human ideas of evil that associating that evil with rising up to throw off your oppressors is really interesting. 331 00:27:58.380 --> 00:28:01.380 Some of the things that men do, maybe to have the basic slave races. 332 00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:07.619 Yeah, and I don't think, you know, like I don't think that it's unambiguously on the side of the oppressors. 333 00:28:07.740 --> 00:28:16.259 I don't think that this is a right wing tale telling us that the underclasses should continue to be mistreated and it would be wrong of them to expect otherwise. 334 00:28:16.319 --> 00:28:21.420 I'm not saying that it has a right wing explicitly deals with this, but it is super interesting. 335 00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:25.980 And this is why I do FTE podcast because I never think of these things. 336 00:28:26.039 --> 00:28:27.900 I'm still the 10 year old child, everybody. 337 00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:32.579 And Nathan or Peter or somebody else brings up this and it makes me think about it for the 1st time. 338 00:28:32.700 --> 00:28:37.079 It's an extraordinary interesting point that you make and it's and well observed. 339 00:28:37.140 --> 00:28:45.180 And when they're getting pursued by the oud at no point to actually go, well, kill them because you're the slaves. 340 00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:46.079 I never think about that. 341 00:28:46.140 --> 00:28:52.500 And they're possessed, like they're red and they're horrible monsters and stuff like that, you know, like, and that's how they're shot. 342 00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:53.940 That's how we're meant to read them. 343 00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:57.359 But it's interesting, the kind of underlying thing. 344 00:28:57.480 --> 00:28:58.500 And even at the very end. 345 00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:09.180 You know, the doctor has one trip to make in the TARDIS, and he can rescue 50 Ude or one woman, and he rescues Ida and just leaves the Ude to die and is apologetic about it. 346 00:29:09.240 --> 00:29:22.680 And of course, we would have been horrified had he left Ida to die and sort of heard it a whole heap of kind of squidhead guys into the Tartars, so that they could be happily reunited with sort of Zach and Danny in the final scene. 347 00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:25.259 Or squeezed into that conference. right. 348 00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:26.400 That would have been terrible. 349 00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:27.420 On Danny's lap. 350 00:29:27.539 --> 00:29:36.299 But now once you think about it, that decision seems kind of dodgy as well. 351 00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:43.680 It does, but there's an unintended side effect to that, that the doctor doesn't know that Rose has gone with Zach and Danny. 352 00:29:43.740 --> 00:29:44.579 He's just assuming. 353 00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:48.599 So it's implicit that he made the decision to save Ida over Rosa. 354 00:29:52.740 --> 00:30:00.059 Isn't there some sort of continuity problem in some of the dialogue at the end here, the doctor says something that he can't possibly know. 355 00:30:00.119 --> 00:30:02.400 I just kind of went, how does he know this? 356 00:30:02.460 --> 00:30:05.759 How does he know that the rocket loses protection and falls into the black hole? 357 00:30:05.819 --> 00:30:06.539 How does he know this? 358 00:30:06.660 --> 00:30:10.799 Maybe he picks it up, you know, while he's in the Tartar. 359 00:30:10.859 --> 00:30:18.359 I think that the resolution here is a little bit kind of a bit too easy. 360 00:30:18.420 --> 00:30:30.359 But certainly, I think just sort of getting to the end and getting the rescue happening and stuff is the right decision without a lot of faffing about and seeing shots of the doctor looking at screens or something in the TARDIS. 361 00:30:30.420 --> 00:30:35.579 Like it needs to be a surprise and for it to be a surprise. 362 00:30:35.640 --> 00:30:38.400 Rose and the audience need to learn about it at the same time. 363 00:30:38.460 --> 00:30:47.819 No, I think it's very clever, like working it out at the same time, but that rocket thing does strike me as a fault in the script that he knows about it, how does he know about it? 364 00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:59.400 It's just something that, you know, but I just love all the stuff with Rose and Toby suddenly turning, like with all the lettering and, you know, the seatbelt and the that one shot with the gun thing. 365 00:30:59.460 --> 00:31:04.740 Yeah, so she's got the bolt gun that Zach had in the control centre and it's a joke. 366 00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:06.599 It's actually quite well introduced. 367 00:31:06.660 --> 00:31:16.859 It's Chehov's bolt gun, but he makes some kind of hilarious remark about how he could take out one ode, maybe, if he was lucky, and that's all the armaments that he's got in the room. 368 00:31:16.920 --> 00:31:18.779 And then they've got that with them. 369 00:31:18.900 --> 00:31:23.519 And obviously, we can't have Rose shooting Toby. 370 00:31:23.579 --> 00:31:25.440 That would have been terrible. 371 00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:27.960 Yeah, it would have been... 372 00:31:28.019 --> 00:31:29.160 Bring back Eric, say what I say. 373 00:31:29.279 --> 00:31:30.720 Can you imagine? 374 00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:34.559 So she shoots out the windscreen and lets Toby get sucked out into space. 375 00:31:34.619 --> 00:31:38.400 It's really great and really lucky that they have those emergency shields on this rocket. 376 00:31:38.460 --> 00:31:39.779 She didn't know that. 377 00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:42.059 It's also lucky that Danny had his seatbelt on. 378 00:31:42.119 --> 00:31:42.720 She didn't know that. 379 00:31:42.779 --> 00:31:49.619 And it's also extremely lucky that the doctor falls back on the TARDIS, which just happened to fall into exactly the right. love that. 380 00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:52.559 I don't just when all hope is lost. 381 00:31:52.619 --> 00:31:54.299 You've forgotten all about the TARDIS. 382 00:31:54.359 --> 00:31:57.359 There it is, and the music sends you spirit soaring. 383 00:31:57.420 --> 00:32:00.779 The music is wonderful, but I just think it's such a... 384 00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:01.440 Too convenient. 385 00:32:01.500 --> 00:32:02.880 Amazingly convenient. 386 00:32:02.940 --> 00:32:03.359 I love it. 387 00:32:03.420 --> 00:32:05.940 Do you think if there's a devil, there might be a god? 388 00:32:06.059 --> 00:32:07.319 Who's done? 389 00:32:07.380 --> 00:32:07.859 Yeah. 390 00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:11.700 Thank you again for enlightening me on this. 391 00:32:11.759 --> 00:32:16.619 I just want to say, you know, can you explain to me the 2 pots, like, what do they do? 392 00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:19.259 Yeah, no, and again, that's another one. 393 00:32:19.319 --> 00:32:31.980 You know, we, everyone raves about Pyramids of Mars, but Pyramids of Mars is resolved by the doctor wiring up a console and pressing a few buttons and then sending Soutek off into the distant past or whatever. 394 00:32:31.980 --> 00:32:35.640 And it's super undramatic and massively uninteresting. 395 00:32:35.700 --> 00:32:42.599 And there is that scene, which just consists of a long speech by David Tennant who has no one to talk to. 396 00:32:42.660 --> 00:32:45.119 Just like the nesting consciousness in rose. 397 00:32:45.180 --> 00:32:46.079 It's that again. 398 00:32:46.140 --> 00:32:47.220 Yeah, but he's not. 399 00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:53.819 I mean, he's talking to the beast and the beast isn't really listening and he's kind of working out what's going on, but he has nothing to go on. 400 00:32:53.880 --> 00:33:05.400 He just sort of comes up, or, you know, maybe I'm supposed to bust these lovely vases or whatever, and they'll have whatever effect I've just speechified about. 401 00:33:05.460 --> 00:33:09.180 And so I'm not convinced that that works very well. 402 00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:12.420 We've got all this writing on the wall, like the twin dilemma about the history of everything. 403 00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:15.000 I was thinking about colony in space, actually. 404 00:33:15.059 --> 00:33:19.259 Well, no, I was thinking about between dilemma, Nathan, because I always think about the twin. 405 00:33:19.259 --> 00:33:23.819 Yeah, well, your version does have slugs in it, so... 406 00:33:23.880 --> 00:33:25.980 This story could have been improved with mess store. 407 00:33:26.039 --> 00:33:26.700 It's all I say. 408 00:33:26.759 --> 00:33:28.619 Oh, Mel in a bubble trap, Mestor. 409 00:33:28.680 --> 00:33:30.119 Oh, Rose. 410 00:33:30.660 --> 00:33:36.539 You know, can I just say, like, okay, it's very convenient that the cable snaps. 411 00:33:36.599 --> 00:33:44.579 It's very convenient that they can get the cable out of that tangled mess and get him to go down and then it's very convenient that, you know, there just happens to be an air cushion. 412 00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:46.200 Like, where did the air cushion come from? 413 00:33:46.259 --> 00:33:46.980 Have I missed something? 414 00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:49.200 No, so the dog just created the air cushion. 415 00:33:49.259 --> 00:33:53.819 No, the doctor suggests that the Beast's jailer created the AK Bush. 416 00:33:53.880 --> 00:34:09.300 So originally, well, I'm not really sure because we wanted someone to, if the mind of the beast ever escaped or something, we needed someone to smash those vases for some reason, like I'm not entirely sure that any of that really properly works. 417 00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:12.119 Dear Matt Jones, I love these episodes. 418 00:34:12.179 --> 00:34:21.000 I'm sorry that I'm pointing out these little things right at the end, but I just at this point, this is why, for me, this is not the top of the season. 419 00:34:21.059 --> 00:34:27.119 I love this story and I love so much of it, but it's all these, we're lucky we've got this. 420 00:34:27.179 --> 00:34:38.579 Lucky we've got that, all these little things that, for me, are just convenient or it feels very, we've got 5 minutes left rushed, sort of bullet point, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. 421 00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:42.059 I don't think the confrontation with the beast is the strongest part of the story. 422 00:34:42.119 --> 00:34:42.659 No. 423 00:34:42.659 --> 00:34:43.079 Yeah. 424 00:34:43.139 --> 00:34:45.239 I think the beast looks incredible. 425 00:34:45.300 --> 00:34:45.960 Amazing. 426 00:34:46.019 --> 00:34:46.559 Yeah. 427 00:34:46.619 --> 00:34:55.559 And you get that flash and last week's episode where Zach is working on the controls, he just flashes up on the screen and it's properly shocking. this horrid face showing up. 428 00:34:55.619 --> 00:34:57.119 It's super scary. 429 00:34:57.179 --> 00:35:07.440 It's actually getting to the point where it probably is slightly too scary for Doctor Who, which is a very sort of Hinchcliffe kind of approach as well, but it's slavering. 430 00:35:07.500 --> 00:35:11.760 And even though its mind's gone, it does things like laughing. 431 00:35:12.059 --> 00:35:13.619 It's super menacing. 432 00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:20.760 It's much more menacing than just a sort of dumb shell of a body with no one inhabiting it, sort of has any right to be. 433 00:35:20.820 --> 00:35:23.880 And the doctor does get to interact with it. 434 00:35:23.940 --> 00:35:35.099 But I just wonder whether having the big confrontation between the doctor and the devil happen in such a way that the doctor doesn't even get to speak to him. 435 00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:37.800 It needed a touch of the Gabriel Wolfs there, didn't it? 436 00:35:37.860 --> 00:35:38.219 Yeah. 437 00:35:38.280 --> 00:35:45.659 Well, I mean, think about that scene in Pyramids of Mars, where the doctor is in that room that Sutek is in. 438 00:35:45.659 --> 00:35:51.179 And, I mean, you know, again, it's one of these things we all saw Sutek when we were 10. 439 00:35:51.480 --> 00:36:07.019 We completely accept it, but as has many times been observed, Zutech was exiled to that pyramid in Egypt, along with a whole heap of robots and a bomb, and, you know, like all of these things. 440 00:36:07.079 --> 00:36:13.920 You were probably trying to avoid putting in the cell with him if you really wanted him never to escape. 441 00:36:13.980 --> 00:36:19.559 And so here, you know, it's not exactly 100% certain what's going on. 442 00:36:19.619 --> 00:36:27.059 I think the doctor says, if it's mind ever escaped, it was designed, or if the beast ever escaped. 443 00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:32.940 The idea was that the jail would immediately fall into the black hole. 444 00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:33.840 Yes, that's right. 445 00:36:33.900 --> 00:36:34.619 Yeah. 446 00:36:34.679 --> 00:36:39.360 And so, I guess smashing those things makes that happen. 447 00:36:39.480 --> 00:36:44.940 Yeah, sort of a slightly magic version of, I guess, there's science going on there. 448 00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:49.139 I mean, I don't care about there being magic, particularly in a story about the devil. 449 00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:50.820 You know, there's magic all the way through. 450 00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:55.739 I mean, how does the devil broadcast its image onto Zach's hologram monitor? 451 00:36:55.800 --> 00:36:57.659 Why do all those sort of weird things happen? 452 00:36:57.719 --> 00:37:06.119 I mean, the magic symbols flying off Toby's skin into the ode is absolutely nothing but magic. 453 00:37:06.179 --> 00:37:09.480 You can't say that that's sort of science fiction in any sort of proper sense. 454 00:37:09.539 --> 00:37:11.280 And so that's okay. 455 00:37:11.340 --> 00:37:20.400 I just kind of think that it requires just a lot of dialogue to explain what's going on here and it would be better if we saw it. 456 00:37:20.460 --> 00:37:23.880 I do miss there being a proper confrontation with a villain. 457 00:37:23.940 --> 00:37:25.139 I'd agree with that. 458 00:37:31.739 --> 00:37:34.260 Having criticised that part of it. 459 00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:51.179 It's still extremely entertaining, like, as these things are taking place at the same time and, you know, um, them all escaping and and then ultimately, of course, the doctor and Rose been reunited there at the end and and her just, what was the thing that they said? 460 00:37:51.239 --> 00:37:51.659 Sorry. 461 00:37:51.719 --> 00:37:54.719 I think we beat it. and it's good enough for me, you know? 462 00:37:54.780 --> 00:37:56.579 And who are you? 463 00:37:56.639 --> 00:37:58.380 Well, the stuff of legend, which is, you know. 464 00:37:58.440 --> 00:38:05.340 And you know, I do believe, I could be wrong on this. that that last shot of the Dr. and Rose might have been the last shot of the season. 465 00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:06.780 I think that too. 466 00:38:06.840 --> 00:38:13.739 I think I'd heard that as well Yeah, and I think if you look and they're both looking up at sort of the roof and the cameras up high, I see tears. 467 00:38:13.800 --> 00:38:15.960 I see Billy all misty-eyed. 468 00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:16.679 I like to believe that. 469 00:38:16.739 --> 00:38:18.599 I think that's a beautifully framed shot. 470 00:38:18.659 --> 00:38:23.820 And it's definitely designed to just be an iconic shot of the 2 of them in the Tartars. 471 00:38:23.820 --> 00:38:27.900 You know, it would make a great still to just sort of show what they were about. 472 00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:30.179 It is them being horrifically smug. 473 00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:44.699 And I think possibly it's intentional because at this point, everyone knows exactly what sort of fall they're, you know, heading towards over the next few episodes. 474 00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:49.440 Not the audience, but everyone's sort of involved in the production we've already shot. 475 00:38:49.500 --> 00:38:51.599 You've ghosts and doomsday. 476 00:38:51.659 --> 00:38:59.699 And I think we are kind of setting up this sort of smug hubristic kind of relationship that they have, which is about to go horribly wrong. 477 00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:10.440 I think it's working on a metal level as well, because unless you were there, it's easy to undersell just how popular David Tennant and Billy Piper were with the general public. 478 00:39:10.500 --> 00:39:12.000 And I think that's speaking to the audience. 479 00:39:12.059 --> 00:39:14.699 They are the stuff of legends when it comes to the audience. 480 00:39:14.820 --> 00:39:16.619 I do love that line. 481 00:39:16.679 --> 00:39:17.340 I do love it. 482 00:39:17.400 --> 00:39:18.780 And I do like the way it's played. 483 00:39:18.840 --> 00:39:28.199 And of course, when speaking of Ida being saved at the end there, you know, the original plan was her to come back in a very early version of Planet of the Ude. 484 00:39:28.260 --> 00:39:35.039 So they always had their eye on the fact that she might be a recurring character and you get the line where the doctor says, Ida, maybe see you again. 485 00:39:35.099 --> 00:39:36.780 He has to say that to many people. 486 00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:37.500 Yeah. 487 00:39:37.559 --> 00:39:40.920 It's a shame that we didn't get to see her again because she was such a great character. 488 00:39:40.980 --> 00:39:41.820 She's fantastic. 489 00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:45.960 You know, she was on the Doctor 2 weakest link, which came after season two. 490 00:39:46.019 --> 00:39:47.579 She was one of the contestants. 491 00:39:47.639 --> 00:39:58.559 There was David Tennant, John Barriman, Camille and Noel Clark, and Jake from Age of Steel, and Claire Rushbook. 492 00:39:58.619 --> 00:39:59.880 Ida was one of the contestants. 493 00:39:59.940 --> 00:40:01.800 So K 9 a contestant? 494 00:40:01.860 --> 00:40:02.460 He was. 495 00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:04.199 He got voted off first by everyone. 496 00:40:04.920 --> 00:40:13.260 I think there might have been a pact amongst the contestants to allow the core characters who everyone knew to sort of get through to the later rounds. 497 00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:20.280 I think maybe too, you know, canines there as a kind of joke, but he's not really sustainable as a contestant on the weakest link. 498 00:40:20.340 --> 00:40:26.940 And so he's there because, you know, everyone loves canine and stuff, but they just wanted to get on with the people doing the weakest link. 499 00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:37.019 I'm not going to spoil who wins because I live in hope that I can find video of this and put a link in the show notes, but suffice it to say I'm very pleased with the outcome. 500 00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:42.599 Look, I'm very pleased that I got to chat about this two-parter with you both. 501 00:40:42.659 --> 00:40:46.860 It's been illuminating and it's a really solid story for me. 502 00:40:46.920 --> 00:41:00.239 It's not my favourite of the season, I think, the points there at the end, just take the show off it right at the end, but it really is one of the most underrated, 2 partters, often people talk about other ones, but I think this is, you know, a really fantastic story. 503 00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:04.199 And you know, it's an important story for the series as well, I think. 504 00:41:04.260 --> 00:41:05.760 It does a lot for it. 505 00:41:05.820 --> 00:41:16.860 It establishes a lot of what we think of as the aesthetic of the series. you know, the Ud reoccur, the doctrine kind of as an astronaut in that orange space suit and the grimy kind of space aesthetic. 506 00:41:16.920 --> 00:41:21.599 They end up revisiting that again and again, right into Peter Cabaldi's era. 507 00:41:21.659 --> 00:41:24.239 So it sets up a lot of that visual imagery. 508 00:41:24.300 --> 00:41:31.739 And we're going into space, really, for the 1st time, alien planets with alien creatures much more than we have in the 1st 18 months. 509 00:41:31.800 --> 00:41:34.199 Yeah, and it works because, you know, it's a template that works. 510 00:41:34.260 --> 00:41:37.920 It's a resounding success, this story, and so they just keep feeding from it. 511 00:41:37.980 --> 00:41:42.360 I think that it does Hinchcliffe. well. 512 00:41:42.420 --> 00:41:51.539 You know, there's a whole sort of cohort of fans roughly our age for whom the Hinchcliffe era is the best era of Doctor Who. 513 00:41:51.599 --> 00:41:55.260 I mean, I'm not one of them, but I like the era a lot. 514 00:41:55.320 --> 00:42:07.500 And I think this improves on the Hinchcliffe era in lots of ways that we've already talked about by having better characters by having better relationships between characters, by making us properly care about the people who die. 515 00:42:08.280 --> 00:42:20.039 By having something more to say about, you know, the long buried evil rising from the deep, which is more interesting, I think, than we've normally had. 516 00:42:20.099 --> 00:42:26.760 I think this might have been the kind of story that fans were hoping for when they heard that the series was coming back. 517 00:42:26.820 --> 00:42:30.659 And it's not exactly what you get, as Russell said, you know, dark is easy. 518 00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:36.599 It's not easy, not easy to do it this well, but they didn't realise that the series they got was the series that they would want. 519 00:42:36.659 --> 00:42:43.619 They wanted every episode to be dark and grim, would necessarily work, but on the occasional outing like this. 520 00:42:43.679 --> 00:42:44.159 Fantastic. 521 00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:58.739 All right, so it's part two of a two part story, which can only mean it's time for picks of the week. 522 00:42:58.800 --> 00:42:59.760 Todd. 523 00:42:59.820 --> 00:43:09.840 Well, I've been debating about this in my head because originally I was going to go with something like the Philippines classic the Pyramids of Mars because Gabriel Wolf is in that. 524 00:43:09.900 --> 00:43:20.099 And then we were talking through this episode about all of its nods to the Planet of Evil and so I thought that would be a great one for people to watch, but I'm not going to go for those people. 525 00:43:20.159 --> 00:43:22.199 I'm going to go with something a bit different. 526 00:43:22.260 --> 00:43:38.519 I'm going to go suggest that you should all go and watch another pit and another creature, the creature from the pit, just to see how old school Doctor Who does it on a budget with a creature in a pit that the doctor jumps down and hilarity ensures. 527 00:43:38.579 --> 00:43:38.940 Thank you. 528 00:43:39.179 --> 00:43:42.360 That was never bad advice to watch creature from the pin. 529 00:43:42.420 --> 00:43:44.340 No, no, you have such a way with words, Todd. 530 00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:46.920 Rarely, Nathan, rarely. 531 00:43:46.980 --> 00:43:48.420 We call him the Todd. 532 00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:50.280 So, Peter. 533 00:43:50.340 --> 00:43:58.199 I would like to recommend a new YouTube series called Weird City, which is set in A Future World. 534 00:43:58.260 --> 00:44:09.960 I've only watched the 1st episode, but I think it's said in the same world where there's people who live above the line and below the line, sort of in opulence or in more kind of a old style sissy. 535 00:44:10.019 --> 00:44:11.579 And the 1st episode is amazing. 536 00:44:11.639 --> 00:44:24.059 It's got an A-list cast with Ed O'Neill from Married with Children, and Dylan O'Brien from Teen Wolf, and he's a big movie star as well, Maze Runner, and LeVar Burton from Star Trek Next Generation. 537 00:44:24.119 --> 00:44:28.380 And it's the 1st time in a while that I've watched something which has surprised me. 538 00:44:28.739 --> 00:44:38.519 It's a love story, and I won't go any further than that, but it's not what you expect, and it's got a great sci-fi backdrop to it, so I'd recommend it. 539 00:44:38.579 --> 00:44:39.780 Is it a series? 540 00:44:39.840 --> 00:44:44.760 Yes, it's a series, but I think it might be an anthology series, so it's different characters in each episode. 541 00:44:44.820 --> 00:44:46.739 So the whole thing's available now. 542 00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:50.280 There's certainly more than one episode available, but they might be staggering it. 543 00:44:50.340 --> 00:44:51.420 Give it a go. 544 00:44:51.480 --> 00:44:52.139 You'll enjoy it. 545 00:44:52.199 --> 00:44:52.920 Nathan? 546 00:44:53.039 --> 00:44:55.619 I'm going to recommend a TV series as well. 547 00:44:55.679 --> 00:45:06.239 There was a long time when Flights of Entirety 1st started where we had to watch, you know, 40 Doctor Who episodes a month or something and I kind of lost touch with television. 548 00:45:06.300 --> 00:45:15.000 But I've had the opportunity to watch a lot more things and Netflix is just a giant fire hose of fantastic high quality entertainment. 549 00:45:15.239 --> 00:45:19.199 And I've just watched a thing called Russian Doll. 550 00:45:19.260 --> 00:45:22.260 A lot of people are probably talking about it now. 551 00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:27.239 So it's probably, again, old hat by the time you get to hear this, but it's 8 parts. 552 00:45:27.300 --> 00:45:31.139 They're each about 25 to 30 minutes long. 553 00:45:31.199 --> 00:45:33.780 So it's about as long as the invasion. 554 00:45:33.780 --> 00:45:38.400 And it really is extraordinarily well acted. 555 00:45:38.460 --> 00:45:40.800 It looks incredible and it's really surprising. 556 00:45:40.860 --> 00:45:42.360 So you've seen it, Peter? 557 00:45:42.420 --> 00:45:45.719 No, but I've had so many recommendations to see it. 558 00:45:45.780 --> 00:45:46.619 People say that it's amazing. 559 00:45:46.679 --> 00:45:48.119 Please tell me it makes sense. 560 00:45:48.420 --> 00:45:49.860 No. 561 00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:55.619 So it's a woman, she's at her 36th birthday party. 562 00:45:55.679 --> 00:45:56.940 We see her at the party. 563 00:45:57.000 --> 00:46:07.739 She leaves the party and is hit by a car and dies, and then she wakes up at the party again in a reprise of the very 1st scene of the episode. 564 00:46:07.800 --> 00:46:18.719 And so it's got a sort of groundhog day thing where she keeps repeating a sort of sequence of events that end up somehow with her dying and ending up back at the party. 565 00:46:18.780 --> 00:46:42.840 And it happens over and over again, but it ends up going in such surprising directions, and it has such interesting things to say about the characters, and it's just a really, really strong piece of writing, and it's beautifully performed by the lead actor whose name I'll put in the show notes, but she's from Orange is the New Black, and she's really, really incredibly good. 566 00:46:42.900 --> 00:46:52.500 And it's intriguing and it has a lot to say about sort of trauma and choice and it just has this incredible atmosphere. 567 00:46:52.619 --> 00:46:58.619 And it's the sort of thing that you could absolutely watch in a sort of long evening. 568 00:46:58.619 --> 00:47:00.300 And it's really well worth the effort. 569 00:47:00.360 --> 00:47:01.260 I really enjoyed it a lot. 570 00:47:01.320 --> 00:47:03.239 Goodness, that does sound like the invasion. 571 00:47:03.599 --> 00:47:06.300 I hope 2 episodes are animated. 572 00:47:06.360 --> 00:47:11.039 I was going to say it sounds better than Planet of the Daleks because that feels like 8 episodes. 573 00:47:11.699 --> 00:47:15.300 It certainly feels like going through something over and over again. 574 00:47:48.360 --> 00:47:57.119 Well, dear listener, we've smashed up the devil's entire collection of priceless meat vases, so we better head off quickly before he wakes up and comes after us. 575 00:47:57.179 --> 00:48:02.400 We'll be back next week to discuss your favourite Doctor Who episode, Love and Monsters. 576 00:48:02.460 --> 00:48:10.619 In the meantime, you can find us at flightthroughentirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and Apple Podcasts, and at FTE podcast on Twitter. 577 00:48:10.619 --> 00:48:20.579 You can also find us on our other podcasts, our series 11 flashcast Jody Intetera, and our James Bond and James Bond adjacent commentary podcast, Bondfinger. 578 00:48:20.639 --> 00:48:27.420 They're at JodyintoTara.com and bondfinger.com respectively, as well as on Twitter, Facebook, and Apple Podcasts. 579 00:48:27.480 --> 00:48:34.440 Until next time, may all your most cherished metaphysical beliefs turn out to have some basis in objective reality. 580 00:48:34.619 --> 00:48:36.480 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 581 00:48:36.539 --> 00:48:37.980 Thank you for having me aboard. 582 00:48:38.039 --> 00:48:38.880 See you soon. 583 00:48:41.940 --> 00:48:46.980 That was Flight for Entirety, starring Todd B. will be Nate for Bottomley and Peter Griffiths. 584 00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:50.699 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings performance by Jane Orberg. 585 00:48:50.760 --> 00:48:57.059 This episode, some Vickers was recorded on the 23rd of February 2019 and released on the 12th of May. 586 00:49:01.860 --> 00:49:08.159 Of course, to those of us who know him personally, The Beast is not just the rarefication of the entirety of human evil. 587 00:49:08.219 --> 00:49:13.920 He's also a great cook, a talented lounge singer, and a warm and generous professional mentor. 588 00:49:14.159 --> 00:49:16.019 Quiz. 589 00:49:16.079 --> 00:49:18.420 Scooty, floating off into that black hole. 590 00:49:18.480 --> 00:49:19.139 That'd be it. 591 00:49:19.500 --> 00:49:21.480 Yeah, do you know what that is? 592 00:49:21.539 --> 00:49:23.159 Yep, we're too. 593 00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:24.659 So we're just nominating something. 594 00:49:24.719 --> 00:49:29.340 Yeah, so I'll talk you through it and I'll just say, Peter, Todd, you know, what am I going to talk about? 595 00:49:29.400 --> 00:49:32.699 Did we have we already picked David Tennant does a podcast with? 596 00:49:33.119 --> 00:49:34.920 You weren't here. 597 00:49:34.980 --> 00:49:35.760 None of that? 598 00:49:35.820 --> 00:49:36.900 No, I can't, I don't know. 599 00:49:36.960 --> 00:49:40.679 The only other pics of the week that we did were at the end of Age of Steel. 600 00:49:40.860 --> 00:49:43.440 I suspect I probably did. 601 00:49:43.619 --> 00:49:47.280 It's just something related to this that you want, you want it. 602 00:49:47.699 --> 00:49:48.239 What did you say? 603 00:49:48.300 --> 00:49:50.099 Podcast with some Nonese. 604 00:49:50.159 --> 00:49:53.280 He did a podcast with some non-entity, someone no one would want to watch. 605 00:49:53.340 --> 00:49:55.139 Ian McCallen. 606 00:49:55.199 --> 00:49:56.280 No, not him. 607 00:49:56.579 --> 00:49:58.619 Wasn't it the 3rd one? 608 00:49:58.679 --> 00:49:59.340 anyway, whatever. 609 00:49:59.400 --> 00:50:00.719 Oh, she was good. 610 00:50:00.780 --> 00:50:01.679 I loved her. 611 00:50:01.739 --> 00:50:08.219 At the end of that, I kept imagining the director saying, no, Jody love, that's too interesting. 612 00:50:08.760 --> 00:50:11.280 Give it more steel, Anthony. 613 00:50:11.340 --> 00:50:12.360 More st land. 614 00:50:12.780 --> 00:50:15.179 Yeah, sports deal. 615 00:50:15.239 --> 00:50:17.219 Yeah, she's so likeable in it. 616 00:50:17.280 --> 00:50:18.300 She's so likeable. 617 00:50:18.360 --> 00:50:21.599 Well, I'm going to listen to it because if she's so likeable. 618 00:50:21.659 --> 00:50:22.199 What going wrong? 619 00:50:22.260 --> 00:50:23.099 Yeah, yeah. 620 00:50:23.159 --> 00:50:25.199 I think, like, I don't think she's unlikeable. 621 00:50:25.199 --> 00:50:30.300 Her doctor's not unlikeable, but she's not as interesting as Jodie Whitaker herself is. 622 00:50:30.360 --> 00:50:32.099 It's kind of like, just let Jody go. 623 00:50:32.159 --> 00:50:33.360 It's like David Tennant. 624 00:50:33.420 --> 00:50:35.699 It's kind of like, no, don't make him do the accent. 625 00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:39.059 Just make him be kind of sexy, confident David Tennant. 626 00:50:39.119 --> 00:50:40.380 It's like Peter Capaldi. 627 00:50:40.440 --> 00:50:42.780 Yeah, you know, so hopefully maybe we'll get a change. 628 00:50:42.840 --> 00:50:46.860 I think if your life was being written by Chris Chibnall, you would be very interesting either. 629 00:50:46.920 --> 00:50:49.559 No, I guess that'd be... 630 00:50:49.619 --> 00:50:51.480 So you're right, Todd? 631 00:50:51.539 --> 00:50:52.619 Can I throw to you first? 632 00:50:53.519 --> 00:50:55.199 Yes, you can. 633 00:50:55.260 --> 00:50:55.739 Okay. 634 00:50:55.800 --> 00:50:56.460 All right, here goes.