WEBVTT

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This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 12:48:58

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast that's still got a bit of a love

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life.

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But let's not go into that.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan, and I'm Max.

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Well, we're back on Earth this week, and that sound you can hear

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are the cries of a 1000000 fanboys complaining that they're

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breaking the format.

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But the truth is, it's much stranger than that.

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It's so much darker and so much madder.

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It's love and monsters.

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Sun shining in the sky.

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There ain't a cloud inside.

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It's something.

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Everybody's in the play, and don't you know?

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It's a beautiful day.

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So, Max.

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When you 1st started watching Doctor Who, it was kind of back on

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the air.

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Yeah, so my memory of these seasons of Doctor Who is sort of a

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1000000 miles away from the fandom that I think this episode, maybe

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you know, slightly talking about, but it was like sort of that

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lovely rose tinted part of fandom where you're a kid acting out

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the episodes at lunchtime after you see it, you know, on the

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weekend.

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I do have like quite distinct memories of certain episodes and

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what I thought of them when I was like that age and then coming

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back and like playing them out with all my friends in the

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playground.

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I don't remember specifically this episode, but I do remember like

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there was the few years where you're just not, you don't think of

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it with a critical, in a critical way.

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It's just all so exciting because it's like the most mad, amazing

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show and you kind of fall in love with it.

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So that's my, particularly these 1st 2 seasons.

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That's my presiding memory of the 1st 2 years, yeah.

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Were there fan events or fan groups or anything that you were ever

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involved in?

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I think well, certainly later.

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I think it was, it was probably, as you sort of get to the 11, 12

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year old, like, I started watching when I was probably about 6 or

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7.

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And then, so by the time, so it was Matt Smith, and I was sort of

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yeah, 11 or 12 years old, and that's when you start taking it a

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bit too seriously, maybe when you're 12 years old.

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And you start, like, you start looking down on, like, the silly

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episodes, like, loving monsters or, like, you know, boom town.

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I remember just, I remember arguing with a friend of mine about

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how, you know, how, you know, I loved all the dark ones when I was

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12 years old because that's what you...

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Yeah.

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But so about that age, yeah, I remember going to, but it probably

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only, it was probably just, I was starting to be aware of like big

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fan events and like, I wanted to meet older doc, particularly at

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that point because I'd, I'd sort of started watching old Doctor

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Who as well, classic Doctor Who.

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And so, like, the prospect of meeting Sylvester McCoy at a big...

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I can't remember.

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I actually think I went to one where you were there actually.

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I can't remember what it was, but it was like a big, it was around

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maybe leaning up to the 50th anniversary.

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I remember this as well.

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There was something on in town.

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It was like a big event.

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And when the new series came out, all those events became kind of

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more more commercial and more professional and things.

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And I think this was run by some outfit called Lords of Time

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possibly.

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Oh, yes.

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Yeah.

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And Sylvester was there and Colin was there.

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And I remember seeing you there.

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And I remember sort of, um, we were talking to Colin Baker, and I

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don't know Colin Baker.

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I couldn't really be said to know Colin Baker, but Todd knows

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Colin because back in the day, and this has come up on the podcast

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before.

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Back in the day, Todd would be guest liaison with all of the

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guests at our conventions.

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And, you know, his parents had a lovely house on the harbour and

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he would take them there and he would spend days going out with

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them and getting to know them.

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And it ended up that he just knows everyone now.

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And so we were all standing around talking to Colin Baker and I

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was sort of secretly kind of thinking, wow, you know, like Max, you

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can see me here.

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I'm talking...

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It was a bit crazy.

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I think it was, I do recall, but it's sort of that sort of slow

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dawning sense, I think.

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I remember in the 1st convention I went to was that I remember

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actually, no, I remember it was like 2011 because I remember they

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were playing, um, a good man goes to war or something.

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So that was like had just aired.

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Yeah, and it was sort of that sensation of, oh, there are people

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that are crazy here.

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And and it was sort of slightly liberating in a way because you

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just go, okay, I'm not the total, you know, as Peter probably the

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anorak. fanboy.

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Like, I'm out anoract here by several, several paces.

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But I think, again, in that, in that way that I was still, I was

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still super young and it was still a very roast tinted kind of

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view of this whole situation.

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Like it just seemed all really marvellous, but yeah.

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And you, I mean, you've, you wrote letters to Doctor Who magazine

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when you were little.

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I had too published.

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There was one there was one because I'd met Sylvester McCoy and

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then they just released an, I think, was like a big interview like

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a big profile interview that they just had.

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And it was really fantastic.

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I think it was the one, Unlucky 7, Oh, yes.

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Yeah, that one.

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I met him and also I watched his stuff and like he was one, him

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and Tom Baker were my 2 favourite when I was a little kid.

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Those 2 were my favourite.

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And still probably now.

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So I just, I was head over heels with his stories and so meeting

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him was so exciting that I thought, I have to write a letter.

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So I wrote one and it got home getting it, I can remember it

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landing like the front door and getting it and finding my name and

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it was a bit ridiculously exciting.

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So good. was really fantastic.

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Well, the funny thing is, that's where I 1st heard of you because

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I was living in the UK at the time with a Doctor Who magazine

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subscription, which you knew about Nathan.

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And you messaged me one day on Facebook saying, Go open your

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thing.

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Is there is there a max on the left?

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Really?

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I do remember that at all.

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I have I have a memory because when...

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It would have to have been me.

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Yeah, when you 1st told me that you Max were going to be on the

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podcast last series.

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I'm like, Max Jobba.

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I know that next.

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Oh, because I had to look, look, this up.

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Because we had Max and I had the Doctor Who Club at school, which

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I mean, Max, that was basically your idea.

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So yeah, so the genesis story of this is that I arrived at the

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school and there was a whole list of like very obscure clubs.

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I remember there's a tin tin club.

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I think that would have been phased out, but it was still in the

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list of registered clubs.

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So I thought, well, this seems to be, I won't say what school it

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is, but it was a school that I thought if any school had a Doctor

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Who club, This would be the one.

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Yeah.

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And also just like there was such a vast group of people that

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attended this school that I knew would watch Doctor Who.

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So then I knew I knew one teacher that was really obsessed with it

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and I asked him, we should, there should be a Doctor Who club, and

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he said, yes, there should, but you should also go to see Mr

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Bottomley.

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And then that was sort of, yeah, I think I just asked you to do

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it.

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And then it sort of happened and then we just watched old classic

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episodes and classrooms at lunchtime every week.

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Still doing it?

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Is it still going?

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It's still going on.

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Because for a while it was like a secret club.

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Well, not secret.

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But it wasn't officially, it was sort of a pirate radio stuff.

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Yeah, exactly. sort of like swapped classrooms every now and then

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to stay under the radar.

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And then, and then I think I remember when it became like, it was

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I had like an official announcement.

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Maybe a year later when it started and it was, we were watching

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Pyramids of Mars, episode one, and I'd felt like half the school

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turned up inside one of those little classrooms to watch it.

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Including the headmaster.

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Yeah, that was fun.

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He was roaring with laughter as that poacher guy gets like hugged

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to death by the 2 mummies.

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But it was really fun and it was because it was fun because a lot

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of a lot of people that went hadn't seen Old Dot Who.

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I think a lot of people really got into it and what they must have

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done.

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And it was like a very, I think it was also a very thing of like

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when you arrived at the school.

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I've heard many things about people seeing that there was

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Adulthood Club at the school and that sort of swinging the, saying

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oh, that this seems like the right school.

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And there is a sort of, there is, if you will permit this sort of

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slightly long-winded anecdote, because one of the kids that went

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to this club, his dad directed, well, has directed three episodes

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three, four, I think. of Doctor Who?

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Daniel Netheim.

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Yeah, and he, and he, uh, yeah, and he came into one of our, to

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one of our clubs and brought props and and did the hot, like, sort

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of talked us through how he filmed.

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It was very lucky that there were really good episodes as well

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because otherwise that would have been really awkward.

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But they were fantastic and he was super sweet and it emerged that

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through that Stephen Moffat had found out that the club existed.

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And I think what did he say?

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He was, he thought it was terrifying.

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I think.

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He found out a bit upsetting.

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But that was great.

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And that sort of Daniel Netheim thing where I was just, you know, I

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would occasionally see him at sort of events and say hello and

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stuff like that.

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Or, you know, I introduced myself to him at the big 50th

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anniversary thing.

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Yeah, with Capaldi, Ingrid Oliver, and Sylvester.

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And that was where we 1st met Stephen from New to Who, was it?

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Or did I dream that?

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Yeah, yeah.

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No, he and his sister had a wonderful photo taken with Peter

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Capaldi.

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They brought in that publicity shot from the smugglers with

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William Hartnell, Anika Wills and Michael Craze looking up at the

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scanner and they said to Peter, can we reenact this?

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Oh, yes.

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And it is the most amazing like the look on, of course, the look

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on their faces, they're so delighted and really getting into it.

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But Capaldi just immediately slips into that wonderful wide-eyed

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terrified thing he does.

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And they're all they're all just looking up.

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Now, of course, they haven't got the Tardus backdrop.

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They've got like that standard kind of mottled blue and purple

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photographers back there.

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Yeah, yeah.

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But yeah, I long ago stopped getting convention photos.

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I think the last convention photo I got was with Cato Mara while I

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was dressed as Bonnie Langford. which Kate thought was amazing.

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Oh my god, your body.

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And she blinked halfway through the photo.

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So it just looks like she's totally unimpressed.

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And she's like, darling, darling, shall we take it again?

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I'm like, no, you look like you're really annoying with me.

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Oh, but darling, I'm not annoyed with you.

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But, you know, that photo with Stephen and his sister, Peter

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Cabaldi kind of made me go, oh, actually, no, these can be nice.

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Because I'd just seen so many where I'm not going to name any talk

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to celebrity names, but certain people who just are not enthused.

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Yes, hello.

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Yes, yes.

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The cybermen, Yeah, okay, yeah.

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Yes, they were my favourite.

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Thank you.

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You have to think that Capaldi would have been massively into

247
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recreating that photo because he is such an incredible fanboy.

248
00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:46.440
Oh, yes.

249
00:11:46.500 --> 00:11:47.220
Yes, absolutely.

250
00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:49.500
What was it he wrote to Barry Ledz?

251
00:11:49.559 --> 00:11:51.720
Like, how can there be 2 different versions of Atlantis?

252
00:11:51.779 --> 00:11:52.860
Was that the question?

253
00:11:52.919 --> 00:11:57.000
But he used to like illustrate fanzine covers and things.

254
00:11:57.059 --> 00:12:00.059
And like whenever he's on Graham Norton or some chat show, they

255
00:12:00.059 --> 00:12:04.080
bring up the fact that like the BBC production office wanted him

256
00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:05.700
to stop riding to them.

257
00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:09.000
Maybe instructed him to stop writing to them.

258
00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:13.320
One of my favourite Capaldi artwork stories is when Titan comics

259
00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:20.340
started doing the comic of him, he sent a sketch of his doctor

260
00:12:20.340 --> 00:12:24.419
sort of walking along the rings of a planet to the main comic

261
00:12:24.419 --> 00:12:25.919
artist and I forget her name.

262
00:12:25.980 --> 00:12:28.019
It could be Alice Jang.

263
00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:28.559
I'm not sure.

264
00:12:28.620 --> 00:12:31.799
Yeah, but yeah, he just sent it to her saying, you know, thank you

265
00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:34.379
for putting my wonderful face in this story.

266
00:12:34.379 --> 00:12:36.179
And she just uploaded it to Twitter.

267
00:12:36.299 --> 00:12:36.840
Like, ah.

268
00:12:39.059 --> 00:12:43.019
Yeah, I mean, both he and Tennant are the 2 big fanboy doctors

269
00:12:43.019 --> 00:12:43.799
aren't they?

270
00:12:43.860 --> 00:12:46.200
So there's that, I've mentioned it before.

271
00:12:46.259 --> 00:12:52.559
There's an incredible commentary where it's Moffatt RTD and tenant

272
00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:54.659
doing silence in the library.

273
00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:58.740
Oh, and this is the best commentary in any DVD. so good.

274
00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:00.179
Is it on the DVDs?

275
00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:01.860
I thought it was on the DVD or maybe not.

276
00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:04.500
They were releasing commentaries, I think, as a podcast.

277
00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:05.580
Oh, I see.

278
00:13:05.580 --> 00:13:07.620
I've got it somewhere.

279
00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:11.580
I tried to find it, maybe on the DVD, but, you know, it's at the

280
00:13:11.580 --> 00:13:15.899
time where Moffatt knows that he's taking over. and it hasn't been

281
00:13:15.899 --> 00:13:19.379
decided whether tenant's going to stay and there's a bit of a joke

282
00:13:19.379 --> 00:13:23.220
about that and he jokes about getting Jimmy Nesbit in to have his

283
00:13:23.220 --> 00:13:26.820
face on the title sequence and stuff because of Jekyll.

284
00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:30.179
And he makes these jokes about the monoids and stuff.

285
00:13:30.299 --> 00:13:31.919
I was kind of like, 0 my god.

286
00:13:31.980 --> 00:13:34.559
David Tennant knows what a monoid is.

287
00:13:35.639 --> 00:13:37.620
And of course, he does that.

288
00:13:37.620 --> 00:13:40.559
Do you remember the 1st time confidential, which we did actually

289
00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:41.879
show at the club one time?

290
00:13:41.879 --> 00:13:46.500
Because all of those people making the show at the time during the

291
00:13:46.500 --> 00:13:49.919
RTD era, you know, massive fanboys.

292
00:13:49.980 --> 00:13:56.220
Like Cornell, who, like he used to come to Australia and pitch

293
00:13:56.220 --> 00:14:01.320
story ideas with Kate Orman, who was kind of like my flatmate at

294
00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:01.620
the time.

295
00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:05.759
And there was this whole sort of era in the early 90s where we

296
00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:06.539
didn't have a show.

297
00:14:06.600 --> 00:14:10.919
You know, we tried to feel the Doctor Who shaped hole in our heart

298
00:14:10.919 --> 00:14:14.039
by watching the X-Files and Star Trek the Next Generation and

299
00:14:14.039 --> 00:14:14.460
stuff.

300
00:14:14.519 --> 00:14:19.019
And we would sort of get together really quite often at my flat

301
00:14:19.019 --> 00:14:24.480
which was like super central and eat cake and have burgers from

302
00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:28.740
Cafe Brontosaurus, which was this sort of fabulous cafe just

303
00:14:28.740 --> 00:14:32.940
across the road run by these sort of pair of fabulous lesbians who

304
00:14:32.940 --> 00:14:36.899
used to, like, I think we overpaid them one time and they came

305
00:14:36.899 --> 00:14:39.600
round to our flat to give us the money back and stuff.

306
00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:42.840
And that, like, you know, that was where I 1st met James and some

307
00:14:42.840 --> 00:14:46.379
of the people that the listeners have been introd to over the last

308
00:14:46.379 --> 00:14:49.379
5 years we've been doing this.

309
00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:49.919
We have.

310
00:14:49.980 --> 00:14:52.799
But I mean, we've also had, you know, we've had guests for the 1st

311
00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:56.460
time over the last year or so and a lot of those guests are people

312
00:14:56.460 --> 00:14:58.620
from that time.

313
00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:02.940
And we had, I hope everyone or forgive me for saying this, but we

314
00:15:02.940 --> 00:15:07.019
had come out 93, where kind of one by one, everyone in the group

315
00:15:07.019 --> 00:15:08.820
declared that they were gay.

316
00:15:11.460 --> 00:15:13.559
I am a homosexual.

317
00:15:13.620 --> 00:15:15.059
Oh, I am...

318
00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:17.639
I am also...

319
00:15:17.700 --> 00:15:21.899
We kind of got quite bored with these revelations by the end.

320
00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:23.100
Oh dear.

321
00:15:23.159 --> 00:15:25.139
And then Neil Hurgood came along.

322
00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:26.220
What do you mean, you're straight?

323
00:15:26.759 --> 00:15:30.659
honestly. ruining the whole decor.

324
00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:32.340
But it was spectacular.

325
00:15:32.399 --> 00:15:35.940
And we, you know, our only experience during the 90s was, of

326
00:15:35.940 --> 00:15:39.600
course, with a TV movie and going to a sort of day event, I think

327
00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:40.860
and seeing it.

328
00:15:40.919 --> 00:15:43.200
Was it at Erskineville, Churchhall?

329
00:15:43.259 --> 00:15:44.100
Church Hall, yes.

330
00:15:44.159 --> 00:15:45.779
Because that's where I started coming to think.

331
00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:48.720
Yeah, so what was your, because I actually don't fully know your

332
00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:49.320
story, I think.

333
00:15:49.379 --> 00:15:50.100
Right.

334
00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:55.080
So around 1994, my dad started going to this club called

335
00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:59.700
Trekastralis. which is now defunct, but basically Trekastralis

336
00:15:59.700 --> 00:16:03.120
turned into Friends of Science Fiction, which is now pretty much

337
00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:04.259
culture shock events.

338
00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:06.960
You know, each one kind of shut down and someone who was involved

339
00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:10.799
in the previous one, then moved on to creating the new club.

340
00:16:10.860 --> 00:16:15.779
But at one of the Trek Astralas meetings, a chap called Neil Hogan

341
00:16:15.779 --> 00:16:20.220
was there with flyers for the Sydney Doctor Who Science Fiction

342
00:16:20.220 --> 00:16:20.820
fan club.

343
00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:23.820
You know, one day, Linda, for sure.

344
00:16:23.940 --> 00:16:28.019
But one day, Walt decided we need to simplify this acronym so it

345
00:16:28.019 --> 00:16:30.000
became the Sydney Doctor Who science fiction club.

346
00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:32.460
You got rid of that one.

347
00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:38.100
Yeah, and so 1995.

348
00:16:38.279 --> 00:16:39.659
I started coming to this.

349
00:16:39.720 --> 00:16:44.879
I persuaded my mum to part with, I think, $20 to subscribe to Time

350
00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:46.200
Brains 2013.

351
00:16:46.440 --> 00:16:47.039
Oh, my God.

352
00:16:47.100 --> 00:16:50.639
The fanzine of the Sydney to whose science fiction fan club?

353
00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:51.779
Said in the far future.

354
00:16:51.779 --> 00:16:52.980
Said of 2013.

355
00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:58.200
So named because of this wonderful thing I discovered through the

356
00:16:58.200 --> 00:17:01.500
Sydney Doctor Who Science Fiction Fan Club, called Dimensions in

357
00:17:01.500 --> 00:17:07.200
Time, which was played at 10 AM once a month at the meeting.

358
00:17:07.259 --> 00:17:08.460
Oh my god.

359
00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:08.940
Really?

360
00:17:08.940 --> 00:17:09.839
Every month.

361
00:17:09.900 --> 00:17:15.240
And there was a time in time brains 2013 where there was a one

362
00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:20.460
page size 6 font transcript of the whole of dimensions in time

363
00:17:20.460 --> 00:17:22.079
which I believe was done by James.

364
00:17:22.140 --> 00:17:23.039
Right, right.

365
00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:27.599
And I said I said to him recently.

366
00:17:27.660 --> 00:17:30.180
You know, why wasn't there a run of about 6 issues where it was on

367
00:17:30.180 --> 00:17:30.660
every page?

368
00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:31.980
Well, we had to fill a page.

369
00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:36.720
But yeah, that's how I got involved.

370
00:17:36.779 --> 00:17:40.440
And I seem to recall that when I started going, there was so the

371
00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:41.819
day would start with dimensions in time.

372
00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:45.720
And then as all fantastic days did.

373
00:17:46.380 --> 00:17:48.240
So bizarre.

374
00:17:48.660 --> 00:17:55.019
And then it would go into 4 to 6 episodes of, at that time

375
00:17:55.019 --> 00:17:55.559
Hartnell.

376
00:17:55.619 --> 00:17:59.640
So when I came along, they were showing the time meddler that day

377
00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:00.660
which I'd never seen.

378
00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:02.460
Wow, right.

379
00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:05.279
And then it would be tapes fresh from the US.

380
00:18:05.339 --> 00:18:12.180
So this was where I 1st saw Caretaker, the pilot of Voyager.

381
00:18:12.299 --> 00:18:12.779
Wow.

382
00:18:12.779 --> 00:18:17.279
And also, um, no, it must have been slightly later, but I remember

383
00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:22.680
Babylon 5 episodes and I remember the Shadow War and seeing that 9

384
00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:25.380
months before Channel 9 put it on at midnight.

385
00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:26.640
Right, sort of thing.

386
00:18:26.700 --> 00:18:29.339
And you know, there were all these books, which I couldn't afford

387
00:18:29.339 --> 00:18:29.940
to buy.

388
00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:33.000
But I did buy one book.

389
00:18:33.059 --> 00:18:37.619
And I read it so much, the cover fell off and I read bits of it to

390
00:18:37.619 --> 00:18:40.140
people at school, particularly the double entendres.

391
00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:43.799
It is the discontinuity guide by Cornell Day and Topping.

392
00:18:43.859 --> 00:18:44.400
Wow.

393
00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:47.160
And yeah, I read it cover to cover.

394
00:18:47.220 --> 00:18:47.819
Yeah.

395
00:18:47.819 --> 00:18:54.299
And the line I remember most from it is Terrence Dix is, of course

396
00:18:54.299 --> 00:18:57.660
you can use this book to write your own Doctor Who story and

397
00:18:57.660 --> 00:18:59.220
figure out where it fits into continuity.

398
00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:02.279
But remember, if you have a story idea and it doesn't fit in, write

399
00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:06.119
it anyway and let future continuity cops adjust to conversion

400
00:19:06.119 --> 00:19:10.619
which it's informed my view of in the Doctor of Universe

401
00:19:10.619 --> 00:19:12.059
everything has happened somewhere.

402
00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:13.500
John and Gillian are legit.

403
00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:17.099
Katerina's a companion and travelled for 6 months with the doctor

404
00:19:17.099 --> 00:19:18.299
but they had to memory wiper.

405
00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:20.940
That happened in a short story, by the way.

406
00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:25.619
Yeah, but that was sort of my burgeoning experience of it.

407
00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:27.720
So I met James around that time.

408
00:19:27.779 --> 00:19:28.380
Yeah.

409
00:19:28.380 --> 00:19:32.279
I would have met Todd around a year later at Huvention 96.

410
00:19:32.519 --> 00:19:34.980
Sorry, Whovention 3, I should say, continuity.

411
00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:37.079
Was that the one with Liz Slayton?

412
00:19:37.140 --> 00:19:37.740
Liz Slayton.

413
00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:41.099
I only turned up to that one for a day to chat with Gary Russell

414
00:19:41.099 --> 00:19:42.900
and I never really got to meet Liz.

415
00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:44.880
And Wendy Padbury was at that as well.

416
00:19:44.940 --> 00:19:46.500
No, that was a later one.

417
00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:47.519
Wendy Papery was later.

418
00:19:47.579 --> 00:19:52.740
So yeah, after that came Sylvester and Nicola at Juvention 2000

419
00:19:52.740 --> 00:19:56.519
and then Colin and Ickty, I think, in 2001.

420
00:19:56.940 --> 00:20:01.200
And then Wendy and Janet in 2003.

421
00:20:01.380 --> 00:20:03.299
And I was at a bunch of those.

422
00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:04.619
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

423
00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:09.299
So I think you and I met around 2000, 2001, around the same time I

424
00:20:09.299 --> 00:20:09.839
met Richard.

425
00:20:09.900 --> 00:20:10.440
Right, yeah.

426
00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:13.559
Yeah, so I think I met James first, then Todd, then you then

427
00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:17.220
Richard, and lots of other people along the way.

428
00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:19.259
Peter Griffiths, funnily enough.

429
00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:23.819
I think I met before all of you because he used to knock around

430
00:20:23.819 --> 00:20:28.799
with a friend of the family, Robert McKnight, who created a 1st

431
00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:30.480
produced studio 10, for instance.

432
00:20:30.539 --> 00:20:32.160
You know, he works in television now.

433
00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:35.339
He used to make these videos called scanner screen, which, you

434
00:20:35.339 --> 00:20:40.019
know, included him, the Melbourne drag queen, Jessica James, or as

435
00:20:40.019 --> 00:20:43.619
she was 1st Desiree, but then Desiree in one video was killed in a

436
00:20:43.619 --> 00:20:48.420
car accident, except Fraser couldn't drive, the man playing the

437
00:20:48.420 --> 00:20:49.140
drag queen.

438
00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:53.039
So it was literally just people pushing the car out of frame and

439
00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:55.559
sort of a Bel Lugosi style scream off camera.

440
00:20:55.980 --> 00:21:00.240
But, you know, Robert was inspired to make those videos with his

441
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:02.160
friends because they were all Doctor Who fans.

442
00:21:02.220 --> 00:21:07.140
And now he's gone on to be a successful TV producer and journalist

443
00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:07.980
you know?

444
00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:15.180
But Peter, I don't really recall him as a kid.

445
00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:19.259
But what I do recall is, he appeared on the afternoon show in the

446
00:21:19.259 --> 00:21:20.160
Doctor Who quiz.

447
00:21:20.220 --> 00:21:23.880
Yeah, and I think Kate Orman was on an episode of that as well.

448
00:21:23.940 --> 00:21:25.559
Both with the same haircut.

449
00:21:25.619 --> 00:21:26.339
Yeah, yeah.

450
00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:28.440
It was super peak 80s hair.

451
00:21:28.500 --> 00:21:29.220
Oh my god.

452
00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:30.960
Like, he's got a bouffon mullet.

453
00:21:31.019 --> 00:21:35.400
I think he went around and got a Dalek gun and wiped all the

454
00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:35.700
tapes.

455
00:21:35.819 --> 00:21:37.380
I have it somewhere.

456
00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:43.140
I have it somewhere in our office because, of course, um, uh

457
00:21:43.140 --> 00:21:47.460
Dallas Jones, also, friend of the podcast and, yeah, one of the

458
00:21:47.460 --> 00:21:50.819
founders of the Doctor Who Club of Australia still involves still

459
00:21:50.819 --> 00:21:53.460
making fan scenes, making audio dramas now.

460
00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:57.180
He was on that quiz, and of course, I met him through fandom as

461
00:21:57.180 --> 00:21:57.359
well.

462
00:21:57.420 --> 00:22:01.799
So, yeah, my path to fandom is very different from yours, Max

463
00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:05.519
because no one else at school watched Doctor Who.

464
00:22:05.579 --> 00:22:08.700
Even though it was, you know, in constant reruns.

465
00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:10.079
No one else watched it.

466
00:22:10.140 --> 00:22:13.619
The only other friend of mine who knew anything about it.

467
00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:17.039
His parents were actually very strict Jehovah's Witnesses, and he

468
00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:17.819
didn't have a television.

469
00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:18.599
Oh, no.

470
00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:20.279
All he knew about Doctor Who was.

471
00:22:20.339 --> 00:22:22.440
He watch Castro Valver once on video at the library.

472
00:22:22.500 --> 00:22:23.640
Gosh.

473
00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:26.339
And that was literally all he knew about Doctor.

474
00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:28.799
All my friends knew I watched Doctor Who because I told them.

475
00:22:30.299 --> 00:22:35.579
So instead, me sort of finding my tribe was having to go outside

476
00:22:35.579 --> 00:22:39.720
my usual comfort zone because I lived down in Campbelltown, you

477
00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:43.500
know, and so had to come into the city to go to these events.

478
00:22:43.799 --> 00:22:45.900
That was me finding that.

479
00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:48.720
And of course, then I got involved in the organisation because I

480
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:50.099
was a precocious little thing.

481
00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:53.220
And you did end up as president and supreme commander of the

482
00:22:53.220 --> 00:22:53.880
Doctor Who.

483
00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:54.660
Vice president.

484
00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:57.119
I was vice president to James's president.

485
00:22:57.180 --> 00:22:58.380
Oh, okay.

486
00:22:58.440 --> 00:22:59.640
And there's the title.

487
00:23:02.819 --> 00:23:08.220
And then we were persuaded to leave.

488
00:23:10.019 --> 00:23:12.420
But that's for later.

489
00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:15.359
I think I was very lucky to have that.

490
00:23:15.420 --> 00:23:18.119
Because I think it just coincided really well with the timing of

491
00:23:18.119 --> 00:23:23.759
me being sort of 7 years old in 2005 and with a group of friends

492
00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:27.000
that were pretty nerdy, you know, like, or not even nerdy, just

493
00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:31.019
like a group of friends that just it perfectly like, because

494
00:23:31.019 --> 00:23:32.519
everyone was watching Doctor Who at that point.

495
00:23:32.579 --> 00:23:35.519
Like so many, because like our parents have watched it.

496
00:23:35.579 --> 00:23:38.940
So it was it was sort of on anyway, I think, in that 2005.

497
00:23:39.180 --> 00:23:43.619
And it just sort of was this perfect, like, setting fire, the

498
00:23:43.619 --> 00:23:47.460
imagination, it kind of just went, yeah, and it just kept...

499
00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:51.000
I remember, I remember my mum and dad being like initially

500
00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:54.000
surprised that we were all in love with it, but then kind of

501
00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:57.059
loving that we were all loving it in the same way they'd done it.

502
00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:00.420
So it was very it was like an encouraged thing for us all to watch

503
00:24:00.420 --> 00:24:01.079
Doctor Who.

504
00:24:01.140 --> 00:24:03.480
And then, generally speaking, at the start of the season, the end

505
00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:06.480
of the season, we'd all meet up at, we don't meet up.

506
00:24:06.539 --> 00:24:07.559
We were 7 years old.

507
00:24:07.619 --> 00:24:11.819
We'd go to at someone's house and watch like the 1st episode of

508
00:24:11.819 --> 00:24:12.480
the last episode.

509
00:24:12.539 --> 00:24:16.259
So I remember, I remember watching like Smith and Jones and then

510
00:24:16.259 --> 00:24:20.099
Last of the Time Lords and different, you know, different places.

511
00:24:20.099 --> 00:24:24.059
And yeah, and I remember sort of there's, so the Russell T. Davis

512
00:24:24.059 --> 00:24:28.680
era, very, it's like this very, sort of beautiful memory of that

513
00:24:28.680 --> 00:24:30.240
at the age that I was at.

514
00:24:30.299 --> 00:24:32.279
And I think, yeah, like you said, I think it was just lucky that

515
00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:34.859
it was on and it was being watched by everyone.

516
00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:39.180
And it was so, and I just remember it being huge in Australia.

517
00:24:39.240 --> 00:24:43.259
I, this is just, I don't, you know, this is just anecdotal and, you

518
00:24:43.259 --> 00:24:46.259
know, in my memory, but like, I remember just of everyone talking

519
00:24:46.259 --> 00:24:47.460
about it, everyone watching it.

520
00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:50.099
It was just, yeah, it was sort of this.

521
00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:50.759
I was very lucky.

522
00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:53.819
I was very lucky that I went through that, the time that I did.

523
00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:57.839
Because Australia has, you know, he's probably 2nd only to Britain

524
00:24:57.839 --> 00:25:01.920
in the amount of Doctor Who, that's or the importance of Doctor

525
00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:07.019
Who on TV because, unlike Britain, it was stripped like Monday to

526
00:25:07.019 --> 00:25:09.299
Thursday and sometimes Monday to Friday.

527
00:25:09.359 --> 00:25:12.720
So when I was in primary school and then high school, it seemed to

528
00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:17.160
be on nearly all the time and we saw lots and lots of baker and

529
00:25:17.160 --> 00:25:18.000
pertwee.

530
00:25:18.059 --> 00:25:21.359
And I remember the 1st time that I was aware that there was a new

531
00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:25.859
season coming out, was, I think, with Horror of Fang Rock, because

532
00:25:25.859 --> 00:25:28.680
I think there was a making of Doctor Who book that might have

533
00:25:28.680 --> 00:25:31.259
finished with Talons of Wang Chiang.

534
00:25:31.319 --> 00:25:34.920
And so I was aware that I'm not sure whether it was new or whether

535
00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:37.740
it was just new to me because of my knowledge of that book.

536
00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:41.579
But I'm certain that Destiny to the Daleks, I knew that that was a

537
00:25:41.579 --> 00:25:42.720
new season coming out.

538
00:25:42.779 --> 00:25:46.319
And so I'd watch it all through high school, friend of the podcast

539
00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:49.920
Matthew and I used to talk about Doctor Who all the time, but it

540
00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:50.940
was when I hit university.

541
00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:54.059
There was a thing called Soutec, which was the Sydney University

542
00:25:54.059 --> 00:26:00.119
kind of science fiction club, clearly named after the villain in

543
00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:01.200
Pyramids of Mars.

544
00:26:01.259 --> 00:26:04.799
And that's where I met, like, I think that's where I met Todd and

545
00:26:04.799 --> 00:26:09.660
Peter and Simon and all of these people that have recently kind of

546
00:26:09.660 --> 00:26:11.339
guessed it on the podcast.

547
00:26:11.460 --> 00:26:14.880
So, I mean, it's, you know, by the time this goes out, I'll be

548
00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:15.119
50.

549
00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:19.859
And so these are people that I've known for kind of getting on for

550
00:26:19.859 --> 00:26:20.460
30 years.

551
00:26:20.759 --> 00:26:25.200
And, you know, the fact that that at the moment I'm getting

552
00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:28.559
together with friends literally every weekend and recording a

553
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:32.519
podcast that, you know, Brendan's created this thing that, as you

554
00:26:32.519 --> 00:26:34.619
said, just now has gone on for 5 years.

555
00:26:34.680 --> 00:26:37.799
Like, it's been a creative outlet.

556
00:26:37.859 --> 00:26:40.740
You know, it's something that I think we both like super proud

557
00:26:40.740 --> 00:26:41.099
of.

558
00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:42.420
Yeah, yeah, it's part of our internet.

559
00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:43.019
Why should it stop?

560
00:26:43.140 --> 00:26:44.759
That's it.

561
00:26:46.619 --> 00:26:50.460
And the people that we've met, like we talked about meeting

562
00:26:50.460 --> 00:26:55.200
Stephen Bee, in person, but the number of people that we've met

563
00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:56.819
just through having done the podcast.

564
00:26:57.000 --> 00:26:59.339
Adam Richard a few weeks ago.

565
00:26:59.400 --> 00:27:00.119
Yeah, yeah.

566
00:27:00.180 --> 00:27:01.680
And I know I wasn't on that episode.

567
00:27:01.740 --> 00:27:05.700
But the funny thing is, I met Adam Richard because of the podcast

568
00:27:05.700 --> 00:27:07.440
but completely unrelated to this.

569
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:07.799
Oh, really?

570
00:27:07.859 --> 00:27:13.799
The ABC held a podcasting day. like a podcasting symposium, if you

571
00:27:13.799 --> 00:27:13.980
like.

572
00:27:14.039 --> 00:27:15.720
And Adam Richard was there.

573
00:27:15.720 --> 00:27:19.920
And I was such a fan of his work in Outland that I just walked up

574
00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:21.180
and hello, Mr. Richard.

575
00:27:21.299 --> 00:27:22.920
And he's like, oh, hello.

576
00:27:22.980 --> 00:27:27.420
And, you know, we had like a good half hour chat with Shampers and

577
00:27:27.420 --> 00:27:31.619
canapes and what have you in the in the reception after the

578
00:27:31.619 --> 00:27:32.279
conference.

579
00:27:32.339 --> 00:27:33.900
He's such a lovely band.

580
00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:38.940
So, you know, Nathan was slightly apologetic to me, not being on

581
00:27:38.940 --> 00:27:40.980
the Adam Richard episode, but he's like, oh, you know, Richard

582
00:27:40.980 --> 00:27:45.059
Adam, know each other and James is the one who contacted him and 5

583
00:27:45.059 --> 00:27:45.779
people's view.

584
00:27:45.779 --> 00:27:47.220
I don't mind, I've met it before.

585
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:51.119
You know, it's like, yes, yes, it would be fun, but at the same

586
00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:51.420
time.

587
00:27:52.500 --> 00:27:57.240
One thing I can't stand in fandom is fans pulling rank.

588
00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:03.180
And some people call it gatekeeping now, but even things like just

589
00:28:03.180 --> 00:28:04.140
you know, just sort of...

590
00:28:04.140 --> 00:28:07.319
Oh, what do you mean you don't know who played the 3rd garden

591
00:28:07.319 --> 00:28:08.160
state of decay?

592
00:28:08.220 --> 00:28:09.900
sort of attitudes.

593
00:28:10.019 --> 00:28:13.200
So when I decided I wasn't going to do every episode of the

594
00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:14.039
podcast anymore.

595
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:20.579
Something I decided was, I would never argue about what episode I

596
00:28:20.579 --> 00:28:21.420
was allocated.

597
00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:24.119
Like, of course, I do put myself forward for certain episodes.

598
00:28:24.180 --> 00:28:29.940
Like, this is one I put myself down for But I never wanted to be

599
00:28:29.940 --> 00:28:33.779
the person who would, you know, say to Nathan at one point.

600
00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:34.980
Well, I created the podcast.

601
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:40.740
I should be allowed to be on New Earth. didn't want to.

602
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:43.380
Just kidding.

603
00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:44.160
Love you.

604
00:28:44.220 --> 00:28:45.299
Love you, Zoe, Wanamaker.

605
00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:49.859
I actually kind of feel that with my sort of constant nagging

606
00:28:49.859 --> 00:28:53.460
about how to hold the microphone and please turn up at this

607
00:28:53.460 --> 00:28:57.660
particular date and, you know, assigning people to be at different

608
00:28:57.660 --> 00:29:02.160
places and in different episodes and giving James imperious

609
00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:07.079
messages about who to contact next and stuff like that, that, you

610
00:29:07.079 --> 00:29:10.259
know, like I'm kind of turning into the sort of Victor Kennedy of

611
00:29:10.259 --> 00:29:12.480
the groove.

612
00:29:12.779 --> 00:29:15.900
But I saw a lovely shade of green.

613
00:29:16.380 --> 00:29:22.200
I still think I still think that there's a sort of creativity that

614
00:29:22.200 --> 00:29:26.279
so many people have been inspired to undertake, you know, people

615
00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:29.700
who've ended up making the show and people who are inspired by the

616
00:29:29.700 --> 00:29:31.619
show to do stuff like this.

617
00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:32.579
Yes.

618
00:29:32.579 --> 00:29:35.279
And I think it's been really incredible.

619
00:29:35.339 --> 00:29:39.779
And I, I, I literally have to say that watching Doctor Who has

620
00:29:39.779 --> 00:29:44.519
completely changed my life and that the people that I kind of know

621
00:29:44.519 --> 00:29:51.059
and love and meet regularly and see are kind of really all people

622
00:29:51.059 --> 00:29:54.299
that I've met through my love of the show.

623
00:29:54.359 --> 00:29:56.039
It's really very strange.

624
00:29:56.099 --> 00:30:01.140
It's also the thing that made me definitely want to do what I'm

625
00:30:01.140 --> 00:30:04.380
studying at the moment, which is screenwriting and stuff and doing

626
00:30:04.380 --> 00:30:09.000
all that because literally that started from A sort of being in

627
00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:11.279
the playground and sort of acting out Doctor Who and then doing

628
00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:14.579
like, there's an acting school in Sydney called Nider that for a

629
00:30:14.579 --> 00:30:16.019
while hosted Doctor Who's specific.

630
00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:16.559
Yeah.

631
00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:21.240
Summer courses as a, as an obviously like cash in, cash in.

632
00:30:21.299 --> 00:30:23.940
No, no, but no, but it was tiny. because you got to tie it. and

633
00:30:23.940 --> 00:30:27.000
you, but you also got to, I think they, it was a very shrewd move

634
00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:30.839
because I think they understood how many people start wanting to

635
00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:33.960
be in the industry or to write or to act or to do whatever from

636
00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:34.559
this show.

637
00:30:34.619 --> 00:30:36.660
And that was exactly what happened to me.

638
00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:40.380
I read the writer's tale and then, like, when I was 10 and then

639
00:30:40.380 --> 00:30:41.160
became obsessed.

640
00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:43.500
And then because all the scripts are laid out in that book.

641
00:30:43.559 --> 00:30:43.980
Yeah.

642
00:30:43.980 --> 00:30:46.619
And that was sort of the realisation that, oh, that's something

643
00:30:46.619 --> 00:30:47.099
you can do.

644
00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:50.039
You can you don't have to necessarily be in Doctor Who.

645
00:30:50.039 --> 00:30:51.599
You can make it and you can write it.

646
00:30:51.660 --> 00:30:54.539
And it was sort of pretty early that I sort of worked out that

647
00:30:54.539 --> 00:30:57.960
writing the show was something that would be like, that's sort of

648
00:30:57.960 --> 00:30:58.680
the dream job.

649
00:30:58.740 --> 00:31:01.259
Not, you know, like, you know, like when you're a kid, you always

650
00:31:01.259 --> 00:31:03.240
like, oh, I really want to be Doctor Who and all that kind of

651
00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:03.480
stuff.

652
00:31:03.539 --> 00:31:07.140
But very quickly, I realised that like Russell T. Davis was that

653
00:31:07.140 --> 00:31:09.000
that was a cool job to be Russell T. Davis.

654
00:31:09.059 --> 00:31:10.799
That was Pete McTani's experience.

655
00:31:10.859 --> 00:31:15.960
Yeah, so, and again, I met him like in the 90s and like have known

656
00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:17.099
him for a really long time.

657
00:31:17.220 --> 00:31:18.720
He was kind of part of the group.

658
00:31:18.779 --> 00:31:23.220
And, you know, then he moved back to Adelaide and all sorts of

659
00:31:23.220 --> 00:31:28.799
other things, but he, in the publicity to series 11, like when the

660
00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:31.980
writers were announced, he said that his entire career has been a

661
00:31:31.980 --> 00:31:35.099
plan that he's been hatching since the age of 10 to one day ride

662
00:31:35.099 --> 00:31:35.940
for Doctor Who.

663
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:39.779
And, you know, he's a very accomplished scriptwriter and has

664
00:31:39.779 --> 00:31:43.740
contributed enormously to a huge number of different TV programs

665
00:31:43.740 --> 00:31:46.140
but he finally, you know, achieves.

666
00:31:46.200 --> 00:31:46.920
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

667
00:31:46.980 --> 00:31:50.279
And he wrote one of the best episodes of the most recent season.

668
00:31:50.339 --> 00:31:50.640
Yeah.

669
00:31:50.700 --> 00:31:51.359
Yeah, absolutely.

670
00:31:51.420 --> 00:31:56.339
And I think it's an episode that you can tell kind of exudes love

671
00:31:56.339 --> 00:31:56.819
for the show.

672
00:31:56.880 --> 00:31:57.480
Yeah.

673
00:31:57.480 --> 00:31:59.220
I think it's like of that whole run.

674
00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:02.940
I think it's the episode that, oh, this sounds very gatekeeping.

675
00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:07.920
But I just mean to say that you can, you can, that enthusiasm and

676
00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:12.059
like love for the show is so apparent in the episode he wrote, I

677
00:32:12.059 --> 00:32:12.599
think. yeah.

678
00:32:12.660 --> 00:32:17.519
I think Vinay Patel, who wrote Demons of the Punjab, actually said

679
00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:24.000
that he kind of really understood the show better after seeing

680
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:26.940
Pete's enthusiasm for it.

681
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:30.599
Like he literally mentioned how Pete's love of the program kind of

682
00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:32.640
informed his writing for it.

683
00:32:32.700 --> 00:32:35.279
And I just think that's that's really incredible.

684
00:32:35.339 --> 00:32:36.660
Yeah absolutely.

685
00:32:51.720 --> 00:32:54.720
This is a bit of a divisive episode, I think.

686
00:32:54.779 --> 00:33:01.019
And when I got this team of people together to discuss Love and

687
00:33:01.019 --> 00:33:01.619
Monsters.

688
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:06.480
One of the things was I didn't want to put out an episode where 3

689
00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:12.000
people just ripped into the show and I had always kind of like the

690
00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:14.759
show, but thought it was really flawed and had some real problems

691
00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:15.299
with it.

692
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:20.819
But now, having watched it twice in preparation for the podcast, I

693
00:33:20.819 --> 00:33:23.640
think it's one of Russell's best scripts.

694
00:33:23.700 --> 00:33:25.380
I would agree.

695
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:29.579
I, I think, um, there's the hot, there's a very, like, established

696
00:33:29.579 --> 00:33:34.859
respectable in quotation marks opinion that it's a great 35

697
00:33:34.859 --> 00:33:38.759
minutes and then a terrible 5 minute of a lousy 10 minutes.

698
00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:43.440
Which I think does carry a bit of, I think that's a fair

699
00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:44.220
assessment of it.

700
00:33:44.279 --> 00:33:48.119
But I really, I don't think it's emphasised enough how fantastic

701
00:33:48.119 --> 00:33:49.859
the 1st 35 minutes are.

702
00:33:49.920 --> 00:33:52.319
And I think there's also aspects about the ending that I love as

703
00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:52.559
well.

704
00:33:52.619 --> 00:33:57.119
But certainly the 1st 35 minutes is probably next to maybe the

705
00:33:57.119 --> 00:34:00.720
girl in the fireplace, my favourite episode of the season up until

706
00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:01.920
a certain point.

707
00:34:02.039 --> 00:34:07.079
Coming up a certain shift, which I think is fine.

708
00:34:07.140 --> 00:34:10.079
Anyway, sorry, I'm really labouring this point.

709
00:34:10.139 --> 00:34:12.599
But I think it's a really fantastic script.

710
00:34:12.659 --> 00:34:12.960
Yeah.

711
00:34:13.019 --> 00:34:15.900
Do you have the same reservations or how do you feel about it

712
00:34:15.900 --> 00:34:16.199
Brandon?

713
00:34:16.679 --> 00:34:21.599
Going back to 2006, that was when I was running the day events for

714
00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:23.099
the Doctor Who Club of Australia.

715
00:34:23.159 --> 00:34:30.000
So we had 3 events because the ABC were showing episodes 3 months

716
00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:31.619
later still at this point.

717
00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:34.500
So we would acquire the episodes.

718
00:34:34.500 --> 00:34:38.159
And I'm pretty sure for this particular day event, and you can

719
00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:39.239
always deny this, Nathan.

720
00:34:39.300 --> 00:34:43.260
But I'm pretty sure you're the one who turned up with the acquired

721
00:34:43.260 --> 00:34:46.559
copy of Doomsday at like 3 in the afternoon, maybe.

722
00:34:46.619 --> 00:34:49.860
That's entirely possible You know, we will talk about it.

723
00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:52.500
We'll talk about it later, but I watched it beforehand to make

724
00:34:52.500 --> 00:34:55.800
sure that I didn't cry in front of everyone when it was screened

725
00:34:55.800 --> 00:34:57.300
later, but Did you still cry?

726
00:34:57.360 --> 00:34:58.320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

727
00:34:58.380 --> 00:35:02.280
So these events were called the new tenant.

728
00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:03.420
Oh dear.

729
00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:05.820
So, um...

730
00:35:08.340 --> 00:35:15.539
So the 1st event, which was the 1st 4 episodes was called moving

731
00:35:15.539 --> 00:35:16.019
in.

732
00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:16.739
Right.

733
00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:22.380
The 2nd event with episodes 5 to 9, I want to say, was called

734
00:35:22.380 --> 00:35:28.800
Houseguests, and this event with Love and Monsters, Fear Her, and

735
00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:31.380
the 2 part finale, was called Home Invasion.

736
00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:32.460
Oh, dear.

737
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:37.559
And the 1st two, I actually made videos for to start the day and

738
00:35:37.559 --> 00:35:39.840
they are the 1st 2 videos on my YouTube channel.

739
00:35:39.900 --> 00:35:40.619
Oh, really?

740
00:35:40.739 --> 00:35:44.039
And they still get people, like, they'll get one or 2 views a

741
00:35:44.039 --> 00:35:44.219
week.

742
00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:48.780
You know, they're standard deaf, horribly pixelated.

743
00:35:49.380 --> 00:35:50.820
Yeah.

744
00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:55.500
But at this point, we were in the Menzies Hotel, which I think is

745
00:35:55.500 --> 00:35:56.159
closed down now.

746
00:35:56.219 --> 00:35:59.760
Yeah, the Menzies Hotel at Wynyard in the downstairs bar because

747
00:35:59.760 --> 00:36:04.500
the bar manager, friend of the podcast, Andrew, was a Doctor Who

748
00:36:04.500 --> 00:36:07.980
fan, and a friend of James's and said, look, we never get anyone

749
00:36:07.980 --> 00:36:11.579
in the sporties bar on a Sunday afternoon, I can give you the room

750
00:36:11.579 --> 00:36:13.679
for free if people drink.

751
00:36:13.739 --> 00:36:15.900
And, you know, we did.

752
00:36:15.900 --> 00:36:16.559
Who fans?

753
00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:22.800
So, we watched Love and Monsters. in a dark basement room.

754
00:36:22.980 --> 00:36:24.659
Oh, wow.

755
00:36:24.659 --> 00:36:26.159
As a group of facts.

756
00:36:28.679 --> 00:36:33.539
So already this story holds a special place in my heart because of

757
00:36:33.539 --> 00:36:33.719
that.

758
00:36:33.780 --> 00:36:38.519
The other reason, and I don't think I've really stated this

759
00:36:38.519 --> 00:36:41.159
explicitly on the podcast before I think I've hinted it, but the

760
00:36:41.159 --> 00:36:43.139
week before this event is when I met Rod.

761
00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:44.340
Oh, okay.

762
00:36:44.460 --> 00:36:45.119
My partner.

763
00:36:45.179 --> 00:36:50.400
And because we got chatting, because as I was taking his number on

764
00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:51.900
my Motorola razor.

765
00:36:52.199 --> 00:36:53.039
Oh, love that.

766
00:36:53.579 --> 00:36:55.079
2006.

767
00:36:55.260 --> 00:36:56.940
Oh, Max doesn't even know what that is.

768
00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:58.920
Sorry, I can't understand you.

769
00:36:58.980 --> 00:36:59.760
It's a flip phone.

770
00:36:59.820 --> 00:37:01.019
It's a flip phone.

771
00:37:01.079 --> 00:37:05.519
I've heard about them And I had a Colin Baker wallpaper on my flip

772
00:37:05.519 --> 00:37:11.280
phone that I'd made myself in Photoshop. to which Rod said, how do

773
00:37:11.280 --> 00:37:13.079
you know who the crap doctor is?

774
00:37:13.139 --> 00:37:14.880
Paul Colin.

775
00:37:15.179 --> 00:37:18.840
And yeah, found he found out I was a Doctor Who fan.

776
00:37:18.900 --> 00:37:21.059
And I explained, actually, I've got this event next week. you

777
00:37:21.059 --> 00:37:25.619
should come Yeah, he turned up in the final scene of Doomsday.

778
00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:26.579
Oh, no.

779
00:37:26.579 --> 00:37:28.320
Where I...

780
00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:30.360
We were crying in a manly way.

781
00:37:33.900 --> 00:37:36.000
And you've been together.

782
00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:40.199
Well, we dated for another 8 months, broke up, and then we got

783
00:37:40.199 --> 00:37:41.519
back together again in 2012.

784
00:37:42.119 --> 00:37:47.400
So that day is indelibly printed on my memory.

785
00:37:47.460 --> 00:37:53.460
But look, I've always loved this episode, and I think I've always

786
00:37:53.460 --> 00:37:56.219
loved this episode because I recognised myself in it.

787
00:37:56.340 --> 00:38:02.400
And there was criticism in reviews at the time that this was an

788
00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:06.900
insulting parody of fans, but I think it's an affectionate parody

789
00:38:06.900 --> 00:38:09.719
of fans, and I think there is a very important difference.

790
00:38:09.780 --> 00:38:12.179
I think if you want an insulting parody of fans.

791
00:38:12.239 --> 00:38:15.360
You go look at Star Trek, Next Generation, season 2, Samaritan

792
00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:17.219
Snare, with the pack-leds.

793
00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:18.000
Yeah, yeah.

794
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:21.780
And you look at hollow pursuits with Barclay.

795
00:38:21.780 --> 00:38:24.360
And they are insulting parodies of fans.

796
00:38:24.420 --> 00:38:28.559
But the amazing thing is it totally backfires because the Packlads

797
00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:32.280
take Geordie prisoner and, you know, hold up the entire crew and

798
00:38:32.280 --> 00:38:35.400
almost get Captain Picard killed because Dr. Pulaski can't perform

799
00:38:35.400 --> 00:38:36.599
surgery or him.

800
00:38:36.659 --> 00:38:41.519
And in holo pursuits, you know, Barclay is presented as this

801
00:38:41.519 --> 00:38:44.219
character we laugh at, and it's like, no, you keep bringing back

802
00:38:44.219 --> 00:38:47.519
Barclay because we love Barclay because we are Barclay.

803
00:38:47.579 --> 00:38:53.880
Whereas this is, it is a love letter to fandom, but also a warning

804
00:38:53.880 --> 00:38:57.000
about it consuming you, literally in this case.

805
00:38:57.480 --> 00:39:01.260
Because, you know, when Linda starts up, they're all obsessed with

806
00:39:01.260 --> 00:39:04.079
the doctor, but they start sharing their other passions and their

807
00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:05.039
other interests.

808
00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:06.659
And that's where the friendship forms.

809
00:39:06.780 --> 00:39:09.119
It's absolutely my favourite part of the episode.

810
00:39:09.960 --> 00:39:12.360
Because they're such dorks.

811
00:39:12.420 --> 00:39:16.380
And like Mark Warren, like Elton, you know, dancing in his alone

812
00:39:16.380 --> 00:39:18.119
in his room to ELO.

813
00:39:18.179 --> 00:39:19.440
I listen to that on the way here.

814
00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:21.119
I was listening to it all last night.

815
00:39:21.239 --> 00:39:24.420
And again, it's a super daggy song as well.

816
00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:30.000
But just how sweet they all are, just how absolutely sweet.

817
00:39:30.059 --> 00:39:35.400
And they're awkward and they're shy and we were as well.

818
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:40.440
And, you know, they pair off, they fall in love with one another.

819
00:39:40.500 --> 00:39:44.099
They're cooking, they're playing music, and then they get murdered

820
00:39:44.099 --> 00:39:46.199
one by one, one.

821
00:39:46.500 --> 00:39:49.440
It happens almost immediately too, doesn't it?

822
00:39:49.500 --> 00:39:51.300
Who mentioned 3 was crazy.

823
00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:52.800
But it's true.

824
00:39:52.860 --> 00:39:55.679
It's so, I love, and particularly Bridget.

825
00:39:55.739 --> 00:39:57.360
Yeah, by Moya Brady.

826
00:39:57.420 --> 00:40:01.199
She's, I love that, even it's such a small little moment, but I

827
00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:04.679
love when you learn about what's, you know, has kept her coming to

828
00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:08.280
London and it's just such a classic Russell T Davis thing to just

829
00:40:08.280 --> 00:40:10.739
like, there's not much space actually given to them.

830
00:40:10.860 --> 00:40:13.019
You find, like, it's done really economically.

831
00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:16.440
You find out, you know, about these people fairly quickly, but

832
00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:19.920
each character has sort of a sort of an outer shell that they're

833
00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:22.619
putting up and then there is sort of some sort of deeper reason

834
00:40:22.619 --> 00:40:24.179
that they're here or whatever.

835
00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:27.659
And I think I think that's just so sensitively handled.

836
00:40:27.719 --> 00:40:31.199
And it makes their deaths kind of hurt quite a bit.

837
00:40:31.260 --> 00:40:34.440
I think even people who don't like the episode of in even

838
00:40:34.440 --> 00:40:38.519
criticism, they criticise how cruel the murdering of all these

839
00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:39.300
people seems.

840
00:40:39.360 --> 00:40:41.099
And I think it is like, it is awful.

841
00:40:41.159 --> 00:40:45.059
I think that that was my previous objection to it.

842
00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:49.320
And like, I agree with what you say about the way he makes us love

843
00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:50.099
those people.

844
00:40:50.159 --> 00:40:53.340
Bliss really doesn't have that much to do.

845
00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:56.400
She's just really in that sort of montage of a couple of minutes

846
00:40:56.400 --> 00:41:00.840
before Victor Kennedy turns up and she's so beautiful and so

847
00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:01.800
adorable.

848
00:41:01.860 --> 00:41:06.780
And they're all just terrifically lovely and their awkwardness

849
00:41:06.780 --> 00:41:10.139
which they kind of don't fully lose among themselves.

850
00:41:10.199 --> 00:41:15.360
Bridget and Mr. Skinner doing that awkward kiss is so

851
00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:19.860
heartbreakingly sweet and he just keeps murdering them.

852
00:41:19.980 --> 00:41:26.099
And it's something that Russell does, I think you've, yeah, Stephen

853
00:41:26.099 --> 00:41:28.440
Moffatt said about Russell T. Davis, he creates interesting

854
00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:29.579
characters, then melts them.

855
00:41:29.639 --> 00:41:30.000
Yeah.

856
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:33.119
And you remember Cucumber Max?

857
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:40.079
Yeah. where it's episode six, I think, which is absolutely Russell

858
00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:40.500
doing that.

859
00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:41.820
It's absolutely.

860
00:41:41.880 --> 00:41:45.780
It's an episode where he tells us that a really likeable character

861
00:41:45.780 --> 00:41:47.579
is dead.

862
00:41:47.639 --> 00:41:51.659
Then we get to see their entire life and then we get to watch them

863
00:41:51.659 --> 00:41:55.199
die from a perspective of being inside their head.

864
00:41:55.199 --> 00:41:58.679
So you get to experience their actual death in a sort of 1st

865
00:41:58.679 --> 00:41:59.340
person way.

866
00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:02.460
And it absolutely destroyed me.

867
00:42:02.519 --> 00:42:05.039
It's really the most upsetting thing I've ever seen on TV.

868
00:42:05.099 --> 00:42:06.420
I was alone in the house.

869
00:42:06.539 --> 00:42:10.739
My husband was away and I watched it and I didn't know anyone else

870
00:42:10.739 --> 00:42:13.320
who was watching it, so I had no one to talk to about it.

871
00:42:13.380 --> 00:42:17.159
And I was so devastated and I tried to hug the dog and the dog

872
00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:18.360
wasn't particularly interested.

873
00:42:18.599 --> 00:42:21.179
And then I remember the next morning.

874
00:42:21.239 --> 00:42:24.719
I remember the next morning going to work and having the 1st

875
00:42:24.719 --> 00:42:28.679
couple of periods off and having to go to a cafe to be away from

876
00:42:28.679 --> 00:42:32.940
people and then chatting to Peter, sometime guest of the podcast

877
00:42:32.940 --> 00:42:35.699
Peter, about the episode, he was in Britain.

878
00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:40.139
And there's a real darkness to Russell's writing from time to

879
00:42:40.139 --> 00:42:41.340
time.

880
00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:46.500
And I think that back in the 60s and 70s, where the people who

881
00:42:46.500 --> 00:42:50.400
died on Doctor Who were people, they were men who were known only

882
00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:53.219
by their last names, who worked on a space base.

883
00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:54.780
And that's a cheat.

884
00:42:54.840 --> 00:42:57.780
You know, it doesn't matter when those people die because they're

885
00:42:57.780 --> 00:42:58.260
no one.

886
00:42:58.380 --> 00:43:04.079
And reminding us that death, which is just kind of a plot point or

887
00:43:04.079 --> 00:43:07.380
an atmosphere point or something to raise the stakes in Doctor Who

888
00:43:07.380 --> 00:43:12.539
is a real, a real thing that we all experience.

889
00:43:12.599 --> 00:43:16.739
Um, you know, in our families and in our groups of friends and

890
00:43:16.739 --> 00:43:23.639
colleagues, you know, that people die and it's, it's heartbreaking

891
00:43:23.639 --> 00:43:25.019
that's what Russell wants to talk about.

892
00:43:25.079 --> 00:43:27.480
So those deaths are proper deaths.

893
00:43:27.539 --> 00:43:31.380
And even the fact that they're humiliated before they die, even

894
00:43:31.380 --> 00:43:35.519
the fact that they become this joke, which I think, again, people

895
00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:38.940
could quite reasonably object to.

896
00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:41.940
And also, well, there's still, Bliss is still sort of a joke when

897
00:43:41.940 --> 00:43:44.579
she's on his bum and he farts.

898
00:43:44.639 --> 00:43:49.860
And I kind of wonder whether the actor refused to get made up, but

899
00:43:49.860 --> 00:43:50.579
I don't think so.

900
00:43:50.639 --> 00:43:53.219
I think it was probably a budget saving thing where we just have

901
00:43:53.219 --> 00:43:54.059
to make up some of them.

902
00:43:54.420 --> 00:43:56.699
Death can be like that as well.

903
00:43:56.760 --> 00:44:03.780
You know, in hospitals, there's humiliation and drool and shit and

904
00:44:03.780 --> 00:44:06.719
people don't leave easily.

905
00:44:06.840 --> 00:44:12.239
So, you know, the grotesqueness of it is the kind of grotesqueness

906
00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:14.460
that I think that they're not we thought that Doctor Who always

907
00:44:14.460 --> 00:44:14.880
had.

908
00:44:14.940 --> 00:44:17.219
You know, they always thought Doctor Who was sort of weird people

909
00:44:17.219 --> 00:44:19.260
in rubber suits and that kind of thing.

910
00:44:19.320 --> 00:44:23.940
And here that grotesqueness is super alienating and upsetting.

911
00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:26.699
Like, you know, I've read reviews that say it would have been

912
00:44:26.699 --> 00:44:28.440
better if they'd just been killed.

913
00:44:28.500 --> 00:44:35.280
And I think Russell making us aware of their, you know, the

914
00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:36.840
humiliation of the process.

915
00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:38.219
It's bleak.

916
00:44:38.280 --> 00:44:39.239
It's super horrible.

917
00:44:39.300 --> 00:44:42.840
It is. and you know, Elton shouts, that's not fair.

918
00:44:42.900 --> 00:44:47.699
And it's, it kind of ties in with the theme of this season of, you

919
00:44:47.699 --> 00:44:49.440
know, the doctor saying, I only take the best.

920
00:44:49.500 --> 00:44:54.000
He said it last season and he and Rose have this belief that they

921
00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:55.320
are the best.

922
00:44:55.440 --> 00:44:56.519
The stuff of legends.

923
00:44:56.519 --> 00:44:57.539
The stuff of legends.

924
00:44:57.599 --> 00:45:03.960
And here we have 5 characters who are potential Doctor Who

925
00:45:03.960 --> 00:45:04.679
companions.

926
00:45:04.739 --> 00:45:10.139
You know, Shirley Henderson as Ursula and Bliss, they're sort of

927
00:45:10.139 --> 00:45:13.260
the archetype, they're the young ladies, but...

928
00:45:13.260 --> 00:45:19.440
In the audios at this point, we've got Evelyn Smythe, of course.

929
00:45:19.500 --> 00:45:23.039
So you could have an older companion, like Mr. Skinner, or like

930
00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:27.659
Bridget, Mark Warren is sort of an advocate turlo hybrid.

931
00:45:27.719 --> 00:45:31.320
You know, he's very intelligent, but he's very awkward.

932
00:45:31.380 --> 00:45:34.139
But these people...

933
00:45:34.199 --> 00:45:35.400
They go hunting after the doctor.

934
00:45:35.460 --> 00:45:36.960
They kind of marry Sue characters.

935
00:45:37.019 --> 00:45:40.619
But instead of being the Mary Sue who saves the day.

936
00:45:40.860 --> 00:45:46.980
They are sacrificial loud. sacrificed and they're obliterated and

937
00:45:46.980 --> 00:45:48.179
it's not fair.

938
00:45:48.239 --> 00:45:49.139
No, yeah.

939
00:45:49.139 --> 00:45:52.019
And that is something that Russell does so well.

940
00:45:52.079 --> 00:45:57.719
And I think next to this, the best example of it is in Torchwood

941
00:45:57.719 --> 00:45:58.500
Children of Earth.

942
00:45:58.559 --> 00:46:02.820
And Gwen gets that monologue to camera where she says, I think

943
00:46:02.820 --> 00:46:05.699
sometimes the doctor doesn't come back because he's ashamed of

944
00:46:05.699 --> 00:46:05.880
us.

945
00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:10.260
The difference here is, of course, it is an external force

946
00:46:10.380 --> 00:46:15.539
corrupting something about humanity, corrupting a passion.

947
00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:20.699
Um, I love Elton as the narrator.

948
00:46:20.760 --> 00:46:24.840
I think he's deliberately set up to be a slightly unreliable

949
00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:28.320
narrator, and they're a deliberate visual cues for that.

950
00:46:28.380 --> 00:46:29.760
There's the Scooby-Doo sequence.

951
00:46:29.820 --> 00:46:34.619
And I think fans, fans often fall into 2 camps.

952
00:46:34.679 --> 00:46:38.579
And I'm also going to say with that, fans like putting things in a

953
00:46:38.579 --> 00:46:39.539
hierarchy.

954
00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:43.260
You know, says the guy whose YouTube videos kind of consist of

955
00:46:43.260 --> 00:46:49.679
yeah, top 5 lists. and bottom 5 lists and, you know, ranking all

956
00:46:49.679 --> 00:46:50.880
the Dalek stories and things.

957
00:46:50.940 --> 00:46:51.659
But no, we do.

958
00:46:51.719 --> 00:46:52.619
We love ranking things.

959
00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:57.239
And I think the 2 camps people fall into for this episode is

960
00:46:57.239 --> 00:47:02.760
people look at the visuals and take them entirely, literally.

961
00:47:02.820 --> 00:47:06.900
Or people look at them and understand that they're a metaphor.

962
00:47:07.019 --> 00:47:11.880
So the chase between the Dr. Rose and the Hoyks probably didn't

963
00:47:11.880 --> 00:47:13.800
look like a Scooby-Doo chase.

964
00:47:13.860 --> 00:47:18.300
But Elton translates it as that because that's what it feels like

965
00:47:18.300 --> 00:47:19.800
to him. you know.

966
00:47:19.860 --> 00:47:23.099
I think also too, it's Russell, because that stuff happens really

967
00:47:23.099 --> 00:47:23.880
very early on.

968
00:47:23.940 --> 00:47:30.059
And you have Russell getting Elton to say that he's constructing

969
00:47:30.059 --> 00:47:33.239
the episode, that's a really good bit.

970
00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:34.079
I'm going to hook you.

971
00:47:34.139 --> 00:47:38.099
We're going back in time, but he's put that beat at the top.

972
00:47:38.159 --> 00:47:38.639
Exactly.

973
00:47:38.699 --> 00:47:40.739
Yeah, it's always a cheat, isn't it?

974
00:47:40.860 --> 00:47:43.380
Where they used to do it in Battlestar Galactica all the time

975
00:47:43.380 --> 00:47:46.139
where some really exciting bit of action would happen and then you

976
00:47:46.139 --> 00:47:49.199
would get the credits and then you would get 24 hours earlier and

977
00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:51.179
you would realise they'd just put an exciting bit at the beginning

978
00:47:51.179 --> 00:47:53.159
because they wanted to get you in.

979
00:47:53.219 --> 00:47:57.119
But he's constructing the narrative is explicitly saying that he's

980
00:47:57.119 --> 00:47:58.679
constructing the narrative.

981
00:47:58.739 --> 00:48:02.940
But, I mean, when you talk about what the chase was really like.

982
00:48:03.000 --> 00:48:06.420
Of course, that isn't a question that has an answer because all

983
00:48:06.420 --> 00:48:08.820
there is is Elton's version.

984
00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:12.179
And I think people who create the Hooniverse.

985
00:48:12.239 --> 00:48:16.380
People who have that idea that this is a series of stories that

986
00:48:16.380 --> 00:48:19.980
happen to a single individual in a self-consistent world.

987
00:48:20.039 --> 00:48:25.260
They're the people who get angry at this sort of thing because it

988
00:48:25.260 --> 00:48:30.239
makes that world ridiculous in some way, that that world isn't a

989
00:48:30.239 --> 00:48:34.619
world that can be fully taken seriously, because it has an

990
00:48:34.619 --> 00:48:35.400
absorbable off in it.

991
00:48:35.460 --> 00:48:39.780
And I think that that's the wrong way to look at it.

992
00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:45.480
That's a way to look at it, that ends up with you angry at huge

993
00:48:45.480 --> 00:48:46.920
swathes of the program.

994
00:48:46.980 --> 00:48:47.760
Absolutely.

995
00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:52.500
I mean, the thing with this story, as much as I love it, it's like

996
00:48:52.500 --> 00:48:58.559
the mind robber, or Kinder, or midnight, or turn left, it's an

997
00:48:58.559 --> 00:48:59.219
experiment.

998
00:48:59.280 --> 00:49:03.360
And if the show was like this every week, I probably wouldn't

999
00:49:03.360 --> 00:49:03.780
enjoy it.

1000
00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:05.519
And you know what?

1001
00:49:05.579 --> 00:49:08.340
I put the Caves of Andrazani in that category as well I've spoken

1002
00:49:08.340 --> 00:49:10.079
about my opinion of Caves of Andrazani before.

1003
00:49:10.139 --> 00:49:15.179
But isn't it wonderful that we can have this kind of story?

1004
00:49:15.659 --> 00:49:19.260
Russell often spoke about how he'd been inspired by shows like

1005
00:49:19.260 --> 00:49:20.639
Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

1006
00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:23.400
This is directly inspired by Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode

1007
00:49:23.400 --> 00:49:24.539
called The Zeppo.

1008
00:49:24.599 --> 00:49:25.500
Yeah, yeah.

1009
00:49:25.559 --> 00:49:28.199
It's about like secondary characters, really.

1010
00:49:28.260 --> 00:49:29.159
Or like...

1011
00:49:29.159 --> 00:49:30.179
It's Xander, I think.

1012
00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:30.659
Xander.

1013
00:49:30.719 --> 00:49:31.019
Yeah.

1014
00:49:31.079 --> 00:49:34.800
So Xander who, you know, in the early seasons, there's lots of

1015
00:49:34.800 --> 00:49:37.500
lots of jokes where he's like the most useless member of the gang

1016
00:49:37.500 --> 00:49:40.800
but he's the one who has to face threat and the others just sort

1017
00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:43.619
of run in and out of shot dealing with another menace kind of

1018
00:49:43.619 --> 00:49:43.860
thing.

1019
00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:44.820
It's great.

1020
00:49:44.880 --> 00:49:48.840
They have a massive apocalypse happening kind of off screen.

1021
00:49:48.900 --> 00:49:54.059
And the bits that we see of it are just overwrought and utterly

1022
00:49:54.059 --> 00:49:54.599
ridiculous.

1023
00:49:54.659 --> 00:49:58.619
And meanwhile, he's saving the world on a smaller scale and he

1024
00:49:58.619 --> 00:50:01.320
loses his virginity and all sorts of sort of fun things happen.

1025
00:50:01.380 --> 00:50:05.219
And there's also the storyteller, isn't there, in series 7 of

1026
00:50:05.219 --> 00:50:11.039
Buffy, where a secondary character has a camera and constructs a

1027
00:50:11.039 --> 00:50:11.400
narrative.

1028
00:50:11.460 --> 00:50:12.000
Yeah.

1029
00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:16.139
Survival of the dead, George Romero's last dead film, I believe

1030
00:50:16.139 --> 00:50:20.579
uses this device as well, but it's really kind of cynically done

1031
00:50:20.579 --> 00:50:27.179
and James Rolf, who runs cinemassacre.com, which specialises in

1032
00:50:27.179 --> 00:50:28.679
video game stuff and horror movie stuff.

1033
00:50:28.739 --> 00:50:31.679
He's a massive fan of George Romero, but he got to this movie and

1034
00:50:31.679 --> 00:50:35.639
he's just like, because the Elton character of the movie, I forget

1035
00:50:35.639 --> 00:50:39.840
her name, she actually lampshades that, you know, this is footage

1036
00:50:39.840 --> 00:50:42.420
I took, but I've put music over it because that's what you do in

1037
00:50:42.420 --> 00:50:43.139
movies, isn't it?

1038
00:50:43.199 --> 00:50:45.239
That's an actual line from this.

1039
00:50:45.300 --> 00:50:49.260
Whereas Elton, you know, he might say, oh, I put that bit at the

1040
00:50:49.260 --> 00:50:55.860
beginning to sort of draw you in, but it's very clear that this is

1041
00:50:55.860 --> 00:50:58.380
like a believable task that he's actually assembling all this

1042
00:50:58.380 --> 00:50:58.619
stuff.

1043
00:50:58.679 --> 00:51:02.280
Like that you don't, you totally buy it as something that he would

1044
00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:02.519
do.

1045
00:51:02.519 --> 00:51:06.659
And that his, like, I love the idea that he's inserting all the

1046
00:51:06.659 --> 00:51:10.860
little cutaways to like Elton John or and he thinks he needs to go

1047
00:51:10.860 --> 00:51:14.820
and dance to Mr. Blue Sky to cut it into the, like, I love, I love

1048
00:51:14.820 --> 00:51:17.460
it's totally plausible to me, and I think that's the strength of

1049
00:51:17.460 --> 00:51:20.519
the writing, but I think probably predominantly Mark Warren's

1050
00:51:20.519 --> 00:51:25.199
performance, that that is so, it really hangs together, I think

1051
00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:30.300
because of his performance because it's so plausible and it's so

1052
00:51:30.300 --> 00:51:33.960
you just, you totally buy that this, this construction of this

1053
00:51:33.960 --> 00:51:37.320
episode is his attempt to find meaning in this, you know?

1054
00:51:37.380 --> 00:51:38.579
It's amazing.

1055
00:51:38.639 --> 00:51:42.960
He sort of borders on loveable and irritating. like sweet and

1056
00:51:42.960 --> 00:51:44.880
irritating at the same time.

1057
00:51:44.940 --> 00:51:46.800
Oh, hi, it's me, age 16.

1058
00:51:46.920 --> 00:51:49.019
Yeah, yeah, well, that's it. all of us, I think.

1059
00:51:49.079 --> 00:51:53.760
And there's that wonderful scene with Jackie who we haven't

1060
00:51:53.760 --> 00:51:54.420
mentioned yet.

1061
00:51:54.480 --> 00:51:58.199
And this is a superb performance from her.

1062
00:51:58.260 --> 00:52:00.840
It's the last thing that they shoot in series two.

1063
00:52:00.900 --> 00:52:02.760
And they get her back.

1064
00:52:02.820 --> 00:52:06.480
Russell writes it at the end and realises he wants more Jackie in

1065
00:52:06.480 --> 00:52:10.019
the season, which is a creative decision that we're all absolutely

1066
00:52:10.019 --> 00:52:11.280
behind. absolutely.

1067
00:52:11.280 --> 00:52:15.539
And he doesn't know how to meet people and become friends with

1068
00:52:15.539 --> 00:52:15.840
them.

1069
00:52:15.900 --> 00:52:20.699
And there's stages that he's been coached in by Victor Kennedy

1070
00:52:20.699 --> 00:52:24.059
because he's such an anorak that he can't do that.

1071
00:52:24.119 --> 00:52:28.199
But of course, Jackie has effortlessly mastered all of those

1072
00:52:28.199 --> 00:52:31.980
stages and she manages to hit each one before he even gets the

1073
00:52:31.980 --> 00:52:35.400
opportunity because she's normal and loveable.

1074
00:52:35.460 --> 00:52:38.639
And we've said before, that she represents someone who would never

1075
00:52:38.639 --> 00:52:41.400
have watched Doctor Who or never been in it before.

1076
00:52:41.519 --> 00:52:43.679
She's from the real world.

1077
00:52:43.739 --> 00:52:47.579
And the 2 of them are wonderful together.

1078
00:52:47.639 --> 00:52:54.239
And I think one of the highlights is when he realises that trying

1079
00:52:54.239 --> 00:52:58.380
to find the doctors actually nonsense and what he should really be

1080
00:52:58.380 --> 00:53:03.179
doing is becoming mates with Jackie because Jackie's sad and

1081
00:53:03.179 --> 00:53:03.719
lonely.

1082
00:53:03.780 --> 00:53:07.380
And I love how it's, it almost, I realise how clever that setup

1083
00:53:07.380 --> 00:53:10.800
was that you think he's, he sort of wants to become friends with

1084
00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:14.579
Jackie, but there's also that subtext of knowing that he, he's

1085
00:53:14.579 --> 00:53:15.960
going to go and ask Ursula out.

1086
00:53:16.019 --> 00:53:18.840
Like it's just so there's so much going on in that scene.

1087
00:53:18.900 --> 00:53:20.400
I agree. and when Jackie's on the phone.

1088
00:53:20.460 --> 00:53:24.539
It's just like one of her best perfor- like that scene, I think, is

1089
00:53:24.539 --> 00:53:25.679
just so fantastic.

1090
00:53:25.739 --> 00:53:28.860
It's like one of the, I just love her performance so much.

1091
00:53:28.860 --> 00:53:33.360
And it's so, she gives such a nuanced performance that I don't

1092
00:53:33.360 --> 00:53:36.179
think poop enough people give credit for because it's just, yeah.

1093
00:53:36.239 --> 00:53:38.639
Well, because there's a whole sequence where she looks like she

1094
00:53:38.639 --> 00:53:40.019
wants to have sex with him.

1095
00:53:40.079 --> 00:53:43.500
And, you know, she's wonderful at comedy and she is sometimes just

1096
00:53:43.500 --> 00:53:46.079
played as a comedy character, I think, in the 1st episode.

1097
00:53:46.139 --> 00:53:47.820
She's a comedy character.

1098
00:53:47.880 --> 00:53:50.099
And she does that here.

1099
00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:51.539
She's trying to have sex with him.

1100
00:53:51.599 --> 00:53:54.239
She looks at him like he's stretching up to do something from the

1101
00:53:54.239 --> 00:53:58.679
roof and we see, you know, his flat stomach and and, you know, she

1102
00:53:58.679 --> 00:54:01.800
looks at his bum and she's pouring wine on him.

1103
00:54:01.860 --> 00:54:06.119
And she's doing all this broad comedy and then she gets the phone

1104
00:54:06.119 --> 00:54:11.039
call from Rose and then she realises, no, I'm just really

1105
00:54:11.039 --> 00:54:13.679
incredibly lonely and I'm being silly.

1106
00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:18.480
And she's so happy when he offers to just watch telly with her.

1107
00:54:18.599 --> 00:54:21.840
And the moment that they mentioned Mickey as well.

1108
00:54:21.900 --> 00:54:25.320
Oh my god, you know, like I used to have this mate, Mickey, and

1109
00:54:25.320 --> 00:54:25.739
he's gone.

1110
00:54:25.860 --> 00:54:28.679
And of course, to Elton, that means nothing.

1111
00:54:28.739 --> 00:54:31.739
Like nothing in Victor's briefing has mentioned Mickey.

1112
00:54:31.800 --> 00:54:32.579
Yeah.

1113
00:54:32.579 --> 00:54:35.579
And, you know, given that all the briefing stuff seems to centre

1114
00:54:35.579 --> 00:54:37.019
around the Slothian incident.

1115
00:54:37.079 --> 00:54:39.900
All the visual records of Rose.

1116
00:54:40.019 --> 00:54:42.780
It's understandable that he wouldn't mention Mickey.

1117
00:54:42.840 --> 00:54:45.840
So in that instance, Elton's just like, oh, okay, you know, you

1118
00:54:45.840 --> 00:54:48.900
used to have this friend called Mickey, no relation or what have

1119
00:54:48.900 --> 00:54:49.079
you.

1120
00:54:49.139 --> 00:54:53.460
That scene where, you know, she chucks the wine on it, but whatnot

1121
00:54:53.519 --> 00:54:59.820
his nervousness is so well played and then his confidence as he

1122
00:54:59.820 --> 00:55:03.840
walks back in and then he just sort of shrinks in on himself when

1123
00:55:03.840 --> 00:55:06.300
when she's talking.

1124
00:55:06.360 --> 00:55:09.960
And yet that is when he has the realisation, but it's so

1125
00:55:09.960 --> 00:55:13.260
wonderfully done as sort of a set of creeping close-ups.

1126
00:55:13.380 --> 00:55:17.880
And something I noticed about Camille in this.

1127
00:55:17.940 --> 00:55:20.400
And I think it's a conscious decision because there's so many

1128
00:55:20.400 --> 00:55:21.780
subtle design elements in this.

1129
00:55:21.840 --> 00:55:25.739
Like when Elton comes back from getting the pizza, his shirt is no

1130
00:55:25.739 --> 00:55:26.340
longer stained.

1131
00:55:26.400 --> 00:55:30.780
And I think that's a deliberate thing, part of the unreliable

1132
00:55:30.780 --> 00:55:31.320
narrator.

1133
00:55:31.380 --> 00:55:34.260
You know, he's forgotten that detail telling the story because

1134
00:55:34.260 --> 00:55:36.059
this is a really heartfelt moment.

1135
00:55:36.119 --> 00:55:39.179
I don't think that's something they would have screwed up.

1136
00:55:39.239 --> 00:55:46.920
But also, I noticed watching this last night, that Camille's

1137
00:55:46.920 --> 00:55:53.519
makeup just makes her look a little bit tired in a way that Jackie

1138
00:55:53.519 --> 00:55:56.519
hasn't looked before, except, you know, for that year when Rose

1139
00:55:56.519 --> 00:55:57.239
wasn't coming home.

1140
00:55:57.300 --> 00:56:02.639
And I think it's deliberately set up that way to emphasise sort of

1141
00:56:02.639 --> 00:56:04.980
her loneliness and her worry and her concern.

1142
00:56:05.039 --> 00:56:10.260
Yeah, we got the script because the next Christmas special was

1143
00:56:10.260 --> 00:56:12.719
commissioned, Runaway bride had to be moved down to the Christmas

1144
00:56:12.719 --> 00:56:13.440
special.

1145
00:56:13.500 --> 00:56:16.199
So we get love and monsters instead.

1146
00:56:16.260 --> 00:56:19.800
Next week, fear her will be commissioned because Stephen Fry's

1147
00:56:19.800 --> 00:56:21.300
1920 script falls through.

1148
00:56:21.480 --> 00:56:27.659
And, you know, Russell also wanted a story where he could put in a

1149
00:56:27.659 --> 00:56:29.159
monster designed by a viewer.

1150
00:56:29.219 --> 00:56:30.000
Yeah.

1151
00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:30.840
Yeah.

1152
00:56:30.900 --> 00:56:35.699
And so the absorber off is designed by Will Grantham, who...

1153
00:56:36.059 --> 00:56:37.679
This is so bizarre.

1154
00:56:37.739 --> 00:56:39.000
And this is the world of Doctor Who.

1155
00:56:39.059 --> 00:56:41.219
So on my YouTube channel a couple of weeks ago.

1156
00:56:41.280 --> 00:56:45.780
I get this comment from a channel called Channel Pup, and he said

1157
00:56:45.780 --> 00:56:47.099
really like your stuff.

1158
00:56:47.159 --> 00:56:49.440
I'm surprised you don't have more subscribers, but I think you'll

1159
00:56:49.440 --> 00:56:49.980
get more.

1160
00:56:50.039 --> 00:56:52.679
I got my start in Doctor Who and I have lots of people watching

1161
00:56:52.679 --> 00:56:53.159
now.

1162
00:56:53.219 --> 00:56:56.940
And I click through, and the 1st video on the channel is that time

1163
00:56:56.940 --> 00:56:58.679
I created a Doctor Who monster.

1164
00:56:58.739 --> 00:57:03.059
So Will Grantham. is now a young man.

1165
00:57:03.119 --> 00:57:07.019
He has his own YouTube channel and he's producing some really good

1166
00:57:07.019 --> 00:57:10.260
really well thought out content, an opinion based off.

1167
00:57:10.320 --> 00:57:13.440
And he does a great sort of 15 minute video looking back on Love

1168
00:57:13.440 --> 00:57:14.880
and Monsters as an adult.

1169
00:57:14.880 --> 00:57:18.000
And you know, setting the records straight that, yes, even though

1170
00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:22.380
he designed the monster as being, you know, 2 stories tall.

1171
00:57:22.440 --> 00:57:25.380
He wasn't disappointed that it was the size of a man because there

1172
00:57:25.380 --> 00:57:26.340
were lots of reports.

1173
00:57:26.400 --> 00:57:30.119
He did apparently come into the workshop and say, oh, oh, I

1174
00:57:30.119 --> 00:57:31.199
thought he was going to be bigger.

1175
00:57:31.260 --> 00:57:32.219
But it was just like that.

1176
00:57:32.280 --> 00:57:33.960
Oh, it wasn't a disappointment.

1177
00:57:34.019 --> 00:57:35.639
It wasn't like a diva moment.

1178
00:57:35.699 --> 00:57:37.800
Yeah, meant to be like that.

1179
00:57:37.860 --> 00:57:43.199
There's a beautiful thing in the confidential where he sees the

1180
00:57:43.199 --> 00:57:46.739
costume on Peter K for the 1st time and his eyes just light up and

1181
00:57:46.739 --> 00:57:49.980
he gasps and Peter K gives him an autograph photo.

1182
00:57:49.980 --> 00:57:54.239
And I just think it's so wonderful that in this world of fandom

1183
00:57:54.239 --> 00:57:57.119
where we can have very toxic elements.

1184
00:57:57.179 --> 00:58:01.440
I mean, Stephen Moffat and Peter Davidson both quit Twitter

1185
00:58:01.440 --> 00:58:04.920
because of abusive messages, basically.

1186
00:58:04.980 --> 00:58:09.480
And you watch, like if you subscribe to the BBC Doctor Who YouTube

1187
00:58:09.480 --> 00:58:13.019
channel, you're absolutely Nazi adjacent from that point.

1188
00:58:13.079 --> 00:58:17.099
Like there'll be why Doctor Who hates white men will be your next

1189
00:58:17.099 --> 00:58:18.300
suggested video.

1190
00:58:18.360 --> 00:58:19.860
You know, there are toxic elements.

1191
00:58:19.920 --> 00:58:20.460
Yeah.

1192
00:58:20.460 --> 00:58:22.260
Doctor Who hates single fathers.

1193
00:58:22.380 --> 00:58:27.360
No, there is one single father who does something stupid.

1194
00:58:27.420 --> 00:58:34.320
Anyway, I was so heartened to watch Will's channel because he

1195
00:58:34.320 --> 00:58:36.480
still has such love for the show.

1196
00:58:36.539 --> 00:58:41.219
He knows that this story is divisive, but he kind of, he kind of

1197
00:58:41.219 --> 00:58:45.360
just mainly values his own opinion on it and takes the praise for

1198
00:58:45.360 --> 00:58:49.440
the story as well, and he's grateful to have had that.

1199
00:58:49.500 --> 00:58:52.440
And he says in the video, you know, I showed my girlfriend this

1200
00:58:52.440 --> 00:58:53.519
story and she enjoyed it.

1201
00:58:53.579 --> 00:58:55.139
And I thought that was absolutely lovely.

1202
00:58:55.199 --> 00:58:59.639
I watched it with a friend last night who knows Doctor Who has

1203
00:58:59.639 --> 00:59:00.719
watched a bit of it.

1204
00:59:00.780 --> 00:59:02.820
He's known me for ages.

1205
00:59:02.880 --> 00:59:05.579
I've inflicted plenty of Doctor Who on him over the years, but

1206
00:59:05.579 --> 00:59:09.000
he'd never seen this one before and he just thought it was

1207
00:59:09.000 --> 00:59:09.539
splendid.

1208
00:59:09.599 --> 00:59:11.219
You know, he thought it was really terrific.

1209
00:59:11.280 --> 00:59:16.320
And part of our anxiety about Doctor Who is residual anxiety from

1210
00:59:16.320 --> 00:59:20.159
the 80s where everyone thought we were really kind of strange for

1211
00:59:20.159 --> 00:59:24.179
liking this stuff with the people in rubber suits.

1212
00:59:24.239 --> 00:59:26.940
And so the moment the Doctor Who looks like it's being

1213
00:59:26.940 --> 00:59:27.719
ridiculous.

1214
00:59:27.780 --> 00:59:30.119
We turn on it.

1215
00:59:30.179 --> 00:59:31.739
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1216
00:59:31.800 --> 00:59:33.539
If I could ask you, Max.

1217
00:59:33.599 --> 00:59:39.059
So have you then always had people around your own age in your

1218
00:59:39.059 --> 00:59:40.739
social group who were also into the show?

1219
00:59:40.800 --> 00:59:41.880
Like, I think so.

1220
00:59:41.940 --> 00:59:44.880
Like if I, yeah, because it's fascinating.

1221
00:59:44.940 --> 00:59:45.300
Yeah.

1222
00:59:45.780 --> 00:59:50.940
It's I think there was certainly a peak of popularity with the

1223
00:59:50.940 --> 00:59:54.780
show generally from probably started to fade a bit after the 50th

1224
00:59:54.780 --> 00:59:55.320
anniversary.

1225
00:59:55.380 --> 00:59:55.920
Yeah.

1226
00:59:55.920 --> 00:59:59.099
But that said, there were always people watching the show.

1227
00:59:59.159 --> 01:00:01.980
There was never there was never like, I think less people watched

1228
01:00:01.980 --> 01:00:05.579
the Peter Capaldi era, but like it wasn't as if there were just

1229
01:00:05.579 --> 01:00:06.780
still rusted on people watching.

1230
01:00:06.840 --> 01:00:09.179
Like a lot of people still watching it, but it just wasn't, there

1231
01:00:09.179 --> 01:00:12.059
wasn't this sort of dedication and there wasn't like a massive

1232
01:00:12.059 --> 01:00:14.579
group of people that were all watching it and talking about it all

1233
01:00:14.579 --> 01:00:14.940
the time.

1234
01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:19.860
And then since of going to, you know, uni and all that kind of

1235
01:00:19.860 --> 01:00:22.800
stuff, there's been meeting people that are there in the degree

1236
01:00:22.800 --> 01:00:25.320
that I'm in because also they love Doctor Who.

1237
01:00:25.380 --> 01:00:28.380
So it's like, it's a strange thing just sort of never, maybe while

1238
01:00:28.380 --> 01:00:31.679
it's still continuing, and obviously this kind of, the past year

1239
01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:35.880
you know, I've noticed that a lot more people watched it than had

1240
01:00:35.880 --> 01:00:38.519
done for maybe a few years, or even probably, even maybe even

1241
01:00:38.519 --> 01:00:39.059
longer than that.

1242
01:00:39.119 --> 01:00:42.659
So that's obviously exciting as well when you know heaps of people

1243
01:00:42.659 --> 01:00:44.340
are watching your favourite show.

1244
01:00:44.400 --> 01:00:46.980
But I think I'm like, yeah, I think like you said, I think I've

1245
01:00:46.980 --> 01:00:49.619
always had people my age that were watching the show.

1246
01:00:49.679 --> 01:00:53.460
Because you sort of grow up with the show as well as people and

1247
01:00:53.460 --> 01:00:55.920
it's sort of like, there's always that, I don't know, I think

1248
01:00:55.920 --> 01:00:58.619
there's always that feeling that you're like, oh, you know, maybe

1249
01:00:58.619 --> 01:01:01.079
the shows and the series that you grow up with when you're a

1250
01:01:01.079 --> 01:01:03.480
little kid are the ones that are very special to you.

1251
01:01:03.539 --> 01:01:06.840
And I think that's probably still the case, but yeah, it's

1252
01:01:06.840 --> 01:01:10.019
tempting maybe, I think, and a lot of people that maybe aren't

1253
01:01:10.019 --> 01:01:12.539
like, still really big fans of the show, but look back on it

1254
01:01:12.539 --> 01:01:16.019
really fondly from their childhood, watch episodes now and sort of

1255
01:01:16.019 --> 01:01:18.960
go, oh, it's not, you know, it's still nowhere near, like, David

1256
01:01:18.960 --> 01:01:19.500
Tennant.

1257
01:01:19.559 --> 01:01:24.059
Everyone, everyone, I think, remembers David Tennant era. in my

1258
01:01:24.059 --> 01:01:26.460
generation as this sort of like, you know, golden.

1259
01:01:26.519 --> 01:01:29.880
But that's also just the, that when you watch the show.

1260
01:01:29.940 --> 01:01:33.480
Like, I'm sure if I was like 7 or 8 when Matt Smith was the doctor

1261
01:01:33.480 --> 01:01:35.460
I'd feel that way about the show then, you know?

1262
01:01:35.579 --> 01:01:36.300
Yeah, maybe.

1263
01:01:36.360 --> 01:01:40.019
I do think it had a big sort of cultural place at this time.

1264
01:01:40.079 --> 01:01:43.199
But there were all these sort of unhealed wounds from the

1265
01:01:43.199 --> 01:01:46.619
cancellation because, you know, there's the hiatus and then the

1266
01:01:46.619 --> 01:01:49.800
cancellation and we go for such a long time without the show.

1267
01:01:49.860 --> 01:01:52.800
So every time a new episode came out.

1268
01:01:52.860 --> 01:01:54.179
Was there nervous?

1269
01:01:54.239 --> 01:01:55.079
Like, was there still that?

1270
01:01:55.079 --> 01:01:57.480
When do you reckon that faded?

1271
01:01:57.539 --> 01:02:01.260
Do you reckon it was like by maybe series 3 or 4 or did it ever

1272
01:02:01.260 --> 01:02:01.679
fade?

1273
01:02:01.739 --> 01:02:02.340
Is it still?

1274
01:02:02.340 --> 01:02:05.039
I think some of us, it hasn't faded for?

1275
01:02:05.099 --> 01:02:06.300
Yeah, yeah.

1276
01:02:06.360 --> 01:02:10.860
Like, I think part of the reason that, particularly when Stephen

1277
01:02:10.860 --> 01:02:14.280
Moff, actually, not particularly when Stephen Moffatt took over.

1278
01:02:14.340 --> 01:02:22.079
But when we had the sort of 2009 year with the specials, that made

1279
01:02:22.079 --> 01:02:24.539
people aware that, hold on, we may not get a season every year.

1280
01:02:24.599 --> 01:02:27.900
And if we don't get a season every year, it fades from the public

1281
01:02:27.900 --> 01:02:28.500
consciousness.

1282
01:02:28.559 --> 01:02:30.900
And for phase from the public consciousness, then people will stop

1283
01:02:30.900 --> 01:02:31.800
coming back.

1284
01:02:31.860 --> 01:02:35.639
And it's this underlying feeling that then Stephen Moffatt had to

1285
01:02:35.639 --> 01:02:41.159
deal with as executive producer, but every time it wasn't on, when

1286
01:02:41.159 --> 01:02:43.619
it was meant to be on, oh my god, it's going to get cancelled.

1287
01:02:43.679 --> 01:02:44.760
Now, why is it getting cancelled?

1288
01:02:44.820 --> 01:02:46.559
Well it's getting cancelled because of all the complex plots.

1289
01:02:46.679 --> 01:02:48.239
Oh, it's getting cancelled because of River song.

1290
01:02:48.300 --> 01:02:52.320
And people start looking for reasons that it might get cancelled.

1291
01:02:52.380 --> 01:02:55.860
And it is this anxiety that it's going to go away again.

1292
01:02:55.920 --> 01:03:00.480
And so this at the end of series 2, where you get this episode

1293
01:03:00.480 --> 01:03:04.139
which is super divisive and initially really quite off-putting to

1294
01:03:04.139 --> 01:03:04.739
a lot of people.

1295
01:03:04.800 --> 01:03:07.980
And then you get next week's episode, which is also, I think

1296
01:03:07.980 --> 01:03:09.179
probably not well liked.

1297
01:03:09.239 --> 01:03:13.679
People are still anxious about it, even though this is the show at

1298
01:03:13.679 --> 01:03:15.059
its absolute height.

1299
01:03:15.119 --> 01:03:20.820
I mean, series 2 and series four, I think, are like, I don't think

1300
01:03:20.820 --> 01:03:24.420
it's just an artefact of the age that you are now, Max.

1301
01:03:24.480 --> 01:03:29.940
I think that that's the time when Doctor Who had its biggest sort

1302
01:03:29.940 --> 01:03:31.260
of cultural influence.

1303
01:03:31.320 --> 01:03:33.539
Now it's something that's been on for quite a long time.

1304
01:03:33.599 --> 01:03:37.019
It's a different kind of, I think, and I think the difference

1305
01:03:37.019 --> 01:03:42.000
maybe between series 11 and something like series 2 or 3 is, like

1306
01:03:42.000 --> 01:03:45.420
you say, because it's, because this new incarnation of the show

1307
01:03:45.420 --> 01:03:48.239
has been around for longer than any show would probably ordinarily

1308
01:03:48.239 --> 01:03:49.139
work for.

1309
01:03:49.199 --> 01:03:51.900
There aren't many shows that start in 2005 that are still going.

1310
01:03:52.019 --> 01:03:52.559
Yeah.

1311
01:03:52.559 --> 01:03:56.400
So it's kind of sort of a, and it's also like, but it's that

1312
01:03:56.400 --> 01:03:59.579
that's not unique necessarily, but it's like, it's an artefact of

1313
01:03:59.579 --> 01:04:04.019
just how, how just the show just keeps marching on and and not

1314
01:04:04.019 --> 01:04:06.719
marching on implies that it's the same, you know, but it's not, but

1315
01:04:06.719 --> 01:04:11.760
it's just like, there is a specialness to this point in the show's

1316
01:04:11.760 --> 01:04:16.739
life in series 2 and series 3 where it has that freshness from, you

1317
01:04:16.739 --> 01:04:18.539
know, from being away from a very long time.

1318
01:04:18.599 --> 01:04:23.340
I also think too, that it's very clear from this script, which I

1319
01:04:23.340 --> 01:04:25.500
think is one of Russell's most writerly scripts.

1320
01:04:25.559 --> 01:04:31.139
I think this in midnight, him being a screenwriter, you know, I

1321
01:04:31.139 --> 01:04:33.059
mean, he's always a screenwriter, he's right, the thing.

1322
01:04:33.119 --> 01:04:35.519
But, but, you know, they're his most rightly script.

1323
01:04:35.519 --> 01:04:39.119
And it just makes me think that we were incredibly lucky to have

1324
01:04:39.119 --> 01:04:42.420
him and that we kind of don't deserve him.

1325
01:04:42.480 --> 01:04:43.679
You know, it was extraordinary.

1326
01:04:43.739 --> 01:04:48.059
That Doctor Who was brought back by one of the great scriptwriters

1327
01:04:48.059 --> 01:04:52.860
on British TV, someone who's continued to write incredible drama

1328
01:04:52.860 --> 01:04:56.579
and funny comedy and all sorts of things.

1329
01:04:56.639 --> 01:04:58.440
We'd be lucky to have him now.

1330
01:04:58.559 --> 01:04:59.099
Yeah, yeah.

1331
01:04:59.159 --> 01:04:59.880
That'd be something.

1332
01:04:59.940 --> 01:05:02.880
But he really is really incredible.

1333
01:05:02.940 --> 01:05:08.519
And, you know, people, I think people think that the tone at the

1334
01:05:08.519 --> 01:05:13.019
end of this episode is a misfire, but I don't think that at all.

1335
01:05:13.079 --> 01:05:15.360
I think it's absolutely under RTD's control.

1336
01:05:15.420 --> 01:05:17.099
He knows exactly what he's doing.

1337
01:05:17.159 --> 01:05:18.000
Yeah.

1338
01:05:18.000 --> 01:05:19.559
And I don't think it's immune.

1339
01:05:19.619 --> 01:05:22.739
I think there are problems with the ending But yeah, you can't, I

1340
01:05:22.739 --> 01:05:25.980
don't think the claim that he's sort of, it's incomprehensible or

1341
01:05:25.980 --> 01:05:29.039
it's not, it's vastly out of tone with the rest of the episode.

1342
01:05:29.099 --> 01:05:30.179
I don't think that's true at all.

1343
01:05:30.239 --> 01:05:30.420
Yeah.

1344
01:05:30.480 --> 01:05:32.519
One good thing about the ending.

1345
01:05:33.539 --> 01:05:35.519
There's no CG.

1346
01:05:35.579 --> 01:05:41.760
Well, there's compositing, but Shirley Henderson is actually in a

1347
01:05:41.760 --> 01:05:45.360
sort of mask that joins the side of her face.

1348
01:05:45.420 --> 01:05:48.840
Like she hasn't been CG'd into the slab.

1349
01:05:48.900 --> 01:05:51.420
She's just been composited.

1350
01:05:51.480 --> 01:05:54.599
Yeah, in fact, they digitally get rid of her sort of body below

1351
01:05:54.599 --> 01:05:55.920
the neck in that shot.

1352
01:05:56.039 --> 01:06:00.840
So he's holding the paving stone and there's no sort of Shirley

1353
01:06:00.840 --> 01:06:02.159
Henderson sort of underneath.

1354
01:06:02.219 --> 01:06:08.099
So, um, so that joke, like, I think Doctor Who has had sort of sex

1355
01:06:08.099 --> 01:06:13.559
jokes in it before, I think that joke is not inappropriate for

1356
01:06:13.559 --> 01:06:15.900
children because it will sail completely over their heads.

1357
01:06:15.960 --> 01:06:18.659
You know, maybe the love life they have is that they snog.

1358
01:06:18.719 --> 01:06:22.440
And so I absolutely don't see a problem with that.

1359
01:06:22.500 --> 01:06:27.239
And Doctor Who has made kind of jokes like that for a very long

1360
01:06:27.239 --> 01:06:27.480
time.

1361
01:06:27.539 --> 01:06:30.840
Harry's only qualified to work on sailors.

1362
01:06:31.199 --> 01:06:34.559
You know, it's a thing that the show has done.

1363
01:06:34.800 --> 01:06:39.119
There is some discussion about, you know, whether that's a

1364
01:06:39.119 --> 01:06:40.980
terrible fate or not.

1365
01:06:41.280 --> 01:06:45.659
You know, that's a terrible thing that happens to Ursula, a really

1366
01:06:45.659 --> 01:06:46.380
terrible thing.

1367
01:06:46.440 --> 01:06:52.260
But it makes thematic sense that these people have been through

1368
01:06:52.260 --> 01:06:54.719
this thing and they've been affected by it.

1369
01:06:54.780 --> 01:06:58.800
And, you know, people get sick and people get hurt and people age

1370
01:06:58.800 --> 01:07:02.219
and life isn't tidy.

1371
01:07:02.280 --> 01:07:06.659
Like, you couldn't tell that story and have Elton and Ursula

1372
01:07:06.659 --> 01:07:08.460
together properly at the end.

1373
01:07:09.300 --> 01:07:14.099
Yeah, and I think we need to take what the text shows us and the

1374
01:07:14.099 --> 01:07:18.059
text shows us that Ursula is in herself. okay.

1375
01:07:18.119 --> 01:07:18.900
Yeah.

1376
01:07:18.900 --> 01:07:24.599
You know, she is accepting of this problem that life has thrown at

1377
01:07:24.599 --> 01:07:26.460
her. and she's happy to be alive.

1378
01:07:26.519 --> 01:07:28.320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1379
01:07:28.380 --> 01:07:28.679
Yeah.

1380
01:07:28.739 --> 01:07:30.480
People say, you know, she'd be better off dead.

1381
01:07:30.599 --> 01:07:32.159
But again, she's not real as well.

1382
01:07:32.219 --> 01:07:37.440
And that's the other thing too, which is that this is a text that

1383
01:07:37.440 --> 01:07:40.800
is incredibly aware that it's a constructed thing.

1384
01:07:40.800 --> 01:07:47.820
And if you're watching this show as, I think, we're contractually

1385
01:07:47.820 --> 01:07:51.659
obligated to mention El Xander for at this point, if you're

1386
01:07:51.659 --> 01:07:55.860
watching this as gossip about imaginary people, then you're going

1387
01:07:55.860 --> 01:07:58.139
to find that really upsetting.

1388
01:07:58.199 --> 01:08:02.159
But I think what it's trying to say is that we come away from

1389
01:08:02.159 --> 01:08:08.340
terrible experiences damaged and changed and, you know, in

1390
01:08:08.340 --> 01:08:10.559
incredible, unexpected ways.

1391
01:08:10.619 --> 01:08:15.599
And our lives don't go the way that we think they will.

1392
01:08:15.900 --> 01:08:21.180
You know, we don't just get married, have a mortgage, have a kid

1393
01:08:21.180 --> 01:08:26.100
you know, live that life is stranger than that, and it's darker.

1394
01:08:26.159 --> 01:08:31.140
And, you know, all of us have or will have things in our

1395
01:08:31.140 --> 01:08:35.699
experience that are so terrible that we never properly recover

1396
01:08:35.699 --> 01:08:36.539
from.

1397
01:08:36.600 --> 01:08:41.699
But life goes on and that's kind of okay.

1398
01:08:41.760 --> 01:08:46.560
Like, Elton's, like, I initially, and I still feel a little, like

1399
01:08:46.560 --> 01:08:51.060
the, obviously, the, the backstory to Elton about his mum and the

1400
01:08:51.060 --> 01:08:55.439
doctor's connection to, to him from that sort of night, I

1401
01:08:55.439 --> 01:08:58.739
initially, like, on review, I'm rewatching it this time, I think I

1402
01:08:58.739 --> 01:09:02.399
was, I, I think I was much more moved by it than I had been

1403
01:09:02.399 --> 01:09:06.000
previously, because I think I felt maybe because I felt that it

1404
01:09:06.000 --> 01:09:08.220
sort of, it felt weirdly.

1405
01:09:08.460 --> 01:09:10.260
I suppose it is like a thing of suppressing it.

1406
01:09:10.319 --> 01:09:14.819
And given he's the person constructing this story, you wouldn't

1407
01:09:14.819 --> 01:09:17.760
necessarily want to labour on it particularly.

1408
01:09:17.819 --> 01:09:20.640
And I suppose it becomes more relevant when the doctor enters the

1409
01:09:20.640 --> 01:09:23.100
story, which is probably just, I think it's just a consequence of

1410
01:09:23.100 --> 01:09:25.800
the documenting the story so late that it feels like it comes out

1411
01:09:25.800 --> 01:09:26.699
very quickly.

1412
01:09:26.760 --> 01:09:28.619
And then there's the montage.

1413
01:09:28.680 --> 01:09:32.039
It's really lovely and it pairs so well with the song of her

1414
01:09:32.039 --> 01:09:35.399
fading into the white, which I think is really that the visual and

1415
01:09:35.399 --> 01:09:38.220
the sound of that is really lovely.

1416
01:09:38.279 --> 01:09:41.340
I just think that there is still that feeling that I think it's a

1417
01:09:41.340 --> 01:09:42.840
weirdly minimal part of the story.

1418
01:09:42.899 --> 01:09:47.159
But but maybe that that is also saying something about his efforts

1419
01:09:47.159 --> 01:09:50.640
to kind of not talk about until the last possible minute.

1420
01:09:50.699 --> 01:09:53.699
I think, too, like, I agree, for a while, I thought it was just

1421
01:09:53.699 --> 01:09:54.479
one too many things.

1422
01:09:54.539 --> 01:10:02.579
But it's a more real example of the kind of thing that is

1423
01:10:02.579 --> 01:10:07.619
addressed metaphorically by what happens to Linda at the hands of

1424
01:10:07.619 --> 01:10:08.760
the absorber off.

1425
01:10:08.819 --> 01:10:12.840
You know, it's a silly pantoscience fiction thing that eventually

1426
01:10:12.840 --> 01:10:13.500
kills them.

1427
01:10:13.560 --> 01:10:18.600
But, you know, people in their lives have experiences like that

1428
01:10:18.600 --> 01:10:19.020
loss.

1429
01:10:19.079 --> 01:10:22.140
And so there's a real one somewhere in there as well.

1430
01:10:22.199 --> 01:10:23.159
Yeah.

1431
01:10:23.220 --> 01:10:25.920
So I think it resonates with what's going on elsewhere.

1432
01:10:26.039 --> 01:10:31.920
And over the course of the episode, it gives Mark Warren, just

1433
01:10:31.920 --> 01:10:34.739
some amazing little moments, like when he's outside the house with

1434
01:10:34.739 --> 01:10:35.640
Ursula.

1435
01:10:35.699 --> 01:10:39.840
You know, I realised watching it last night, it's him starting to

1436
01:10:39.840 --> 01:10:43.380
remember and he does that little sort of turn away and then he

1437
01:10:43.380 --> 01:10:43.859
can't speak.

1438
01:10:43.920 --> 01:10:47.460
And it happens again when Victor plays in the sound of the Tartar

1439
01:10:47.460 --> 01:10:50.939
and he has to walk away from the group and sit down.

1440
01:10:50.939 --> 01:10:54.359
And there's so many emotional moments in Russell's doctor.

1441
01:10:54.420 --> 01:10:57.899
But the thing that made me cry last night was when he looks up at

1442
01:10:57.899 --> 01:10:59.340
Rose and says that was Ursula.

1443
01:10:59.399 --> 01:11:00.239
Yeah.

1444
01:11:00.239 --> 01:11:01.020
Oh, God.

1445
01:11:01.140 --> 01:11:06.420
And but what, you know, as much as he sells it, what really sells

1446
01:11:06.420 --> 01:11:10.500
it for me is the fact that all the anger goes out of Billy.

1447
01:11:10.560 --> 01:11:13.140
Yeah, she's really good in that bit, I think.

1448
01:11:13.500 --> 01:11:16.859
She's got like 2 lines in the whole episode and she just nails

1449
01:11:16.859 --> 01:11:17.819
both of them.

1450
01:11:17.819 --> 01:11:21.060
And, you know, we see proper crying.

1451
01:11:21.060 --> 01:11:25.680
You know, it's not, you killed my brother, Commander Ivanov.

1452
01:11:26.399 --> 01:11:29.399
It's real proper emotion.

1453
01:11:29.460 --> 01:11:35.460
And with the exception of the scenes from the child's point of

1454
01:11:35.460 --> 01:11:35.699
view.

1455
01:11:35.760 --> 01:11:38.039
Mark Warren's in every scene of this episode.

1456
01:11:38.100 --> 01:11:40.619
Not necessarily every shot, but every scene.

1457
01:11:40.739 --> 01:11:45.119
It even ties back to things like the telly movie where the doctor

1458
01:11:45.119 --> 01:11:49.020
recognises Elton as an adult, having met him once as a child.

1459
01:11:49.079 --> 01:11:54.239
Yeah, and that last scene, it's people standing urgently in a

1460
01:11:54.239 --> 01:11:54.779
corridor.

1461
01:11:54.899 --> 01:11:56.039
It is.

1462
01:11:56.100 --> 01:12:02.279
But it's 4 very good actors. reacting and riffing off each other.

1463
01:12:03.300 --> 01:12:06.000
It's an impressive denouement.

1464
01:12:06.060 --> 01:12:09.779
And the line of the doctor saying, I think the others have

1465
01:12:09.779 --> 01:12:13.979
something to say about that originally wasn't in there, but

1466
01:12:13.979 --> 01:12:16.979
Russell and Julie discussed it and they discussed, look, these

1467
01:12:16.979 --> 01:12:19.260
people have been waiting for the doctor so long.

1468
01:12:19.319 --> 01:12:24.779
It's okay if they want to save him, but also they kind of deserve

1469
01:12:24.779 --> 01:12:25.859
a bit to hear from him.

1470
01:12:26.220 --> 01:12:31.079
And so he kind of gives them the idea of how to be the companion.

1471
01:12:31.199 --> 01:12:33.899
You know, a bit like he said to Mickey a few weeks ago.

1472
01:12:33.960 --> 01:12:36.960
You know, any idiot can use computers through the thing.

1473
01:12:37.020 --> 01:12:40.319
It's like, I'm not going to tell you what to do, but here's an

1474
01:12:40.319 --> 01:12:40.619
idea.

1475
01:12:40.680 --> 01:12:43.739
And yeah, I really like the doctor going, no, I'm not going to

1476
01:12:43.739 --> 01:12:45.539
sacrifice all the time and space for one man.

1477
01:12:45.720 --> 01:12:49.020
Sorry, but no, your plan's rubbish.

1478
01:12:49.260 --> 01:12:54.000
And I like that we can have a slightly rubbish villain with a

1479
01:12:54.000 --> 01:12:55.979
slightly rubbish plan, but he's still a threat.

1480
01:12:55.979 --> 01:12:58.920
And there's a brilliant bit of editing where he jumps up from

1481
01:12:58.920 --> 01:13:01.020
behind the desk and they cut out a few frames.

1482
01:13:01.079 --> 01:13:03.840
So he moves with unnatural quickness.

1483
01:13:03.899 --> 01:13:07.680
Well, and he's said, you know, I'm a big, slow moving thing, you

1484
01:13:07.680 --> 01:13:10.680
know, take pity on me, but then he just sort of leaps over the

1485
01:13:10.680 --> 01:13:10.920
desk.

1486
01:13:11.039 --> 01:13:11.699
Yeah.

1487
01:13:11.760 --> 01:13:16.920
I actually think the absorb life looks pretty good in the interior

1488
01:13:16.920 --> 01:13:17.340
scenes.

1489
01:13:17.460 --> 01:13:18.060
Yeah.

1490
01:13:18.060 --> 01:13:22.140
You don't like how grotesque the running in the loincloth

1491
01:13:22.140 --> 01:13:23.220
outside.

1492
01:13:23.340 --> 01:13:25.079
I kind of, well, I don't know.

1493
01:13:25.140 --> 01:13:26.640
I always found it.

1494
01:13:26.760 --> 01:13:27.840
I kind of just find it funny.

1495
01:13:27.899 --> 01:13:30.960
Because Russell's writing often does massive tonal shifts.

1496
01:13:31.020 --> 01:13:31.380
Yeah.

1497
01:13:31.380 --> 01:13:34.380
Well, actually, no, it's not just, like, Stephen Moffatt's does

1498
01:13:34.380 --> 01:13:34.560
too.

1499
01:13:34.619 --> 01:13:36.239
Russell particularly.

1500
01:13:36.300 --> 01:13:39.960
And I think it's successful all the way through the episode, and

1501
01:13:39.960 --> 01:13:42.180
it's not really, I don't think it's particularly Russell's fault

1502
01:13:42.180 --> 01:13:46.199
but I think maybe it's too much tonal whiplash for me to then find

1503
01:13:46.199 --> 01:13:50.340
him running through the street like really, really funny because I

1504
01:13:50.340 --> 01:13:52.020
think it looks really silly.

1505
01:13:52.079 --> 01:13:54.539
But then again, I suppose if that's their intention.

1506
01:13:54.600 --> 01:13:57.840
I'm not 100% sure how to feel about that. it has to be his

1507
01:13:57.840 --> 01:13:58.920
intention, doesn't it?

1508
01:13:58.979 --> 01:14:03.600
Because he's designing this story around a monster that he already

1509
01:14:03.600 --> 01:14:06.899
knows what it's going to look like that he's designed.

1510
01:14:06.960 --> 01:14:10.619
He knows that that scene is going to look ridiculous.

1511
01:14:10.680 --> 01:14:12.300
And he leans into it, I think.

1512
01:14:12.359 --> 01:14:15.539
And it's really extraordinary.

1513
01:14:15.539 --> 01:14:18.479
And it's not surprising that for a lot of people it doesn't come

1514
01:14:18.479 --> 01:14:18.779
off.

1515
01:14:18.840 --> 01:14:22.800
And it's super off putting because you can't find it funny because

1516
01:14:22.800 --> 01:14:26.100
you are still horrified by what's happened to all of those

1517
01:14:26.100 --> 01:14:26.279
people.

1518
01:14:26.340 --> 01:14:27.539
Yeah.

1519
01:14:27.600 --> 01:14:30.899
See, I think it's the same level of humour as Jackie cowering and

1520
01:14:30.899 --> 01:14:32.939
saying, I'm going to get killed by a Christmas tree.

1521
01:14:33.000 --> 01:14:35.220
It's a situation that's so ridiculous.

1522
01:14:35.279 --> 01:14:36.359
Yeah.

1523
01:14:36.359 --> 01:14:40.020
It's kind of like you don't exactly have to play it for laughs, but

1524
01:14:40.020 --> 01:14:43.739
you have to, in some way, acknowledge that this is silly.

1525
01:14:43.800 --> 01:14:47.819
But also, you know, there is a thing about the human condition

1526
01:14:47.819 --> 01:14:49.319
being ridiculous.

1527
01:14:49.380 --> 01:14:55.020
And I said earlier in the episode about just indignity and Bliss

1528
01:14:55.020 --> 01:14:55.859
ending up on the answer.

1529
01:14:55.920 --> 01:14:56.460
Yeah, yeah.

1530
01:14:56.579 --> 01:14:58.739
That's where we all end up, eventually.

1531
01:15:00.840 --> 01:15:03.960
We haven't specifically singled the amount.

1532
01:15:04.020 --> 01:15:06.420
But Peter K does a wonderful job, I think.

1533
01:15:06.720 --> 01:15:12.060
Yeah, I actually find his performance as the absorbeloff massively

1534
01:15:12.060 --> 01:15:12.899
massively off-putting.

1535
01:15:12.960 --> 01:15:15.539
And I think that that's absolutely deliberate.

1536
01:15:15.600 --> 01:15:17.100
It's the lolling tongue.

1537
01:15:17.159 --> 01:15:18.720
The lolling tongue.

1538
01:15:18.779 --> 01:15:20.159
Also something I really like about it.

1539
01:15:20.220 --> 01:15:23.100
I've spoken about them before, but the audio visuals plays that

1540
01:15:23.100 --> 01:15:26.340
Nick Briggs and Gary Russell and many others made before Big

1541
01:15:26.340 --> 01:15:27.000
Finish.

1542
01:15:27.479 --> 01:15:30.779
They have a recurring villain in them, who, in the big finish

1543
01:15:30.779 --> 01:15:33.060
place, is played by David Warner called Cuthbert.

1544
01:15:33.119 --> 01:15:39.840
Cuthbert is the head of conglomerate, sort of evil corporate

1545
01:15:39.840 --> 01:15:40.920
entity.

1546
01:15:40.979 --> 01:15:46.199
And he's played by an actor called Barry Killerby with a northern

1547
01:15:46.199 --> 01:15:48.899
accent, much like the Bolton accent.

1548
01:15:48.899 --> 01:15:52.619
And one line that just sticks in my mind from those plays is when

1549
01:15:52.619 --> 01:15:56.279
he 1st learns the doctor's interfering in something and he says to

1550
01:15:56.279 --> 01:15:57.479
one of his servant robots.

1551
01:15:57.539 --> 01:16:03.180
I don't need any problems caused by some do good nosim Park.

1552
01:16:03.600 --> 01:16:07.380
But at the same time, he's really menacing.

1553
01:16:07.619 --> 01:16:12.239
And it's kind of like, oh, lots of planets have a north.

1554
01:16:12.300 --> 01:16:17.460
It's like, well, why can't we have this menacing alien who is also

1555
01:16:17.460 --> 01:16:19.680
you know, saying, oh, should test?

1556
01:16:19.739 --> 01:16:20.640
Ah, check in.

1557
01:16:20.699 --> 01:16:23.579
Again, that's super, super off-putting and it's part of the

1558
01:16:23.579 --> 01:16:24.119
humiliation.

1559
01:16:24.180 --> 01:16:27.359
You know, this character that we love and he makes a sort of

1560
01:16:27.359 --> 01:16:29.760
tasteless joke with a silly accent.

1561
01:16:29.819 --> 01:16:32.880
It is, I think, a deliberate choice.

1562
01:16:32.939 --> 01:16:33.960
Yeah, for sure.

1563
01:16:34.020 --> 01:16:37.439
And I really like his performance outside of the prosthetic as

1564
01:16:37.439 --> 01:16:38.340
well, I actually think.

1565
01:16:38.399 --> 01:16:39.420
Because there's all the...

1566
01:16:39.479 --> 01:16:41.880
I think I think I was reading that apparently he spent quite a

1567
01:16:41.880 --> 01:16:44.760
while talking with Russell T. Davis about how to pitch his

1568
01:16:44.760 --> 01:16:46.079
performance in this episode.

1569
01:16:46.079 --> 01:16:49.500
And I think you can, I think that comes across that he's given a

1570
01:16:49.500 --> 01:16:53.579
lot of thought that he's not sort of a, um, well, he's, I suppose

1571
01:16:53.579 --> 01:16:55.859
part of the point is that he's a little bit of a caricature as

1572
01:16:55.859 --> 01:16:56.039
well.

1573
01:16:56.100 --> 01:16:59.760
But I think he balances that with others of nuance as well going

1574
01:16:59.760 --> 01:17:00.000
on.

1575
01:17:00.060 --> 01:17:02.760
And I think he's, um, because he sort of has to be at least a

1576
01:17:02.760 --> 01:17:06.659
little bit tender to appeal to people to stay and come back.

1577
01:17:06.720 --> 01:17:07.260
Yeah.

1578
01:17:07.260 --> 01:17:10.319
And I think he does that really believably and balancing those

1579
01:17:10.319 --> 01:17:10.560
two.

1580
01:17:10.619 --> 01:17:10.979
Yeah.

1581
01:17:11.039 --> 01:17:13.859
He was originally offered the part of Elton.

1582
01:17:13.920 --> 01:17:14.520
Right.

1583
01:17:14.579 --> 01:17:15.239
Oh right.

1584
01:17:15.300 --> 01:17:18.840
But what happened was he wrote to Russell during the 1st season.

1585
01:17:18.899 --> 01:17:19.859
He just said, this is amazing.

1586
01:17:19.920 --> 01:17:22.260
I've been a Doctor Who fan for ages.

1587
01:17:22.319 --> 01:17:24.899
I'm a fan of your work and oh my god, you're brilliant.

1588
01:17:24.960 --> 01:17:27.960
And Russell, of course, reacted to this because at the time, Peter

1589
01:17:27.960 --> 01:17:32.279
Kay's vein of comedy is very similar to Catherine Tate, and he's

1590
01:17:32.279 --> 01:17:34.560
done lots of different comedy shows, but one of the ones that was

1591
01:17:34.560 --> 01:17:38.819
really notable at this time was Britain's got the pop factor

1592
01:17:38.819 --> 01:17:39.600
right?

1593
01:17:39.659 --> 01:17:44.699
Which was a send-up of talent shows, but Peter Kay, playing a

1594
01:17:44.699 --> 01:17:46.859
woman competing on these talent shows.

1595
01:17:46.920 --> 01:17:50.039
And, you know, much like when Catherine Tate plays a man.

1596
01:17:50.100 --> 01:17:54.180
It was a comedy character, but it was as serious as it could be

1597
01:17:54.180 --> 01:17:55.079
kind of thing.

1598
01:17:55.140 --> 01:17:57.899
So he was used to this kind of work in prosthetics and whatnot.

1599
01:17:57.960 --> 01:18:03.479
What I think is so successful about his human persona as Victor

1600
01:18:03.479 --> 01:18:08.039
Kennedy, is it kind of highlights adoration in fandom versus

1601
01:18:08.039 --> 01:18:08.939
entitlement?

1602
01:18:09.000 --> 01:18:09.479
Yeah.

1603
01:18:09.479 --> 01:18:13.619
So the members of Linda, they kind of adore the doctor and they'd

1604
01:18:13.619 --> 01:18:14.399
like to meet him.

1605
01:18:14.520 --> 01:18:17.699
If it's not too much trouble, kind of thing.

1606
01:18:17.760 --> 01:18:20.399
Oh, let's have some cake, you know, let's have a chat.

1607
01:18:20.460 --> 01:18:22.560
Oh, Bliss, your sculptures are amazing kind of thing.

1608
01:18:22.800 --> 01:18:30.119
Whereas Victor, he's an unscrupulous convention organiser, and I

1609
01:18:30.119 --> 01:18:32.819
want to emphasise that word unscrupulous because there are loads

1610
01:18:32.819 --> 01:18:34.619
of great convention organisers.

1611
01:18:34.680 --> 01:18:38.100
There's Todd, of course, there's P Bal and Dex who do events in

1612
01:18:38.100 --> 01:18:41.939
the UK, but there are also these unscrupulous people who they're

1613
01:18:41.939 --> 01:18:46.079
not interested in, you know, sort of the actors putting on a show

1614
01:18:46.079 --> 01:18:47.159
and getting to meet people.

1615
01:18:47.220 --> 01:18:51.180
They're interested in how many sort of notches they can put in

1616
01:18:51.180 --> 01:18:55.079
their belt for how many actors they've met.

1617
01:18:55.140 --> 01:19:02.760
I also think it is that approach to Doctor Who, where it's knowing

1618
01:19:02.760 --> 01:19:07.260
the names of all the cybermen stories or being able to name lots

1619
01:19:07.260 --> 01:19:11.460
of planets or knowing who the assistant floor manager was.

1620
01:19:11.579 --> 01:19:14.819
And all of those things are things that we all know.

1621
01:19:14.880 --> 01:19:18.479
But an insistence on that.

1622
01:19:18.600 --> 01:19:23.159
And he comes in and immediately dismisses the stuff that we've

1623
01:19:23.159 --> 01:19:26.880
been admiring about the interaction between that group as like

1624
01:19:26.880 --> 01:19:30.479
cakes and blubbing or something like that, you know, and he says

1625
01:19:30.479 --> 01:19:31.560
he doesn't want any of that.

1626
01:19:31.619 --> 01:19:34.500
He gets angry at Elton for trying to be friends with Jackie

1627
01:19:34.500 --> 01:19:39.720
because he's got a purpose. creates like an, like the classroom

1628
01:19:39.720 --> 01:19:40.319
set up.

1629
01:19:40.380 --> 01:19:42.899
Yeah, yeah, where they're raising their hand to talk.

1630
01:19:42.960 --> 01:19:43.500
Yeah.

1631
01:19:43.500 --> 01:19:43.979
Yeah.

1632
01:19:44.039 --> 01:19:45.300
And it becomes miserable.

1633
01:19:45.359 --> 01:19:48.600
All of the things that were actually good about those

1634
01:19:48.600 --> 01:19:52.619
relationships, which, to be honest, wasn't their obsession with

1635
01:19:52.619 --> 01:19:53.039
the doctor.

1636
01:19:53.100 --> 01:19:58.020
I mean, I guess I guess the fact that the doctor for them inspires

1637
01:19:58.020 --> 01:20:03.899
art, like it inspires them to create art and stories, stories and

1638
01:20:03.899 --> 01:20:05.159
podcasts and stuff.

1639
01:20:05.460 --> 01:20:07.920
You know, that that's a good thing.

1640
01:20:07.979 --> 01:20:11.279
But what is really good is, you know, the friends we made along

1641
01:20:11.279 --> 01:20:11.699
the way.

1642
01:20:11.760 --> 01:20:15.720
It's interesting because they sort of quite explicitly become

1643
01:20:15.720 --> 01:20:19.439
students of the doctor, which is Victor Kennedy's doing.

1644
01:20:19.439 --> 01:20:23.220
And like before there's sort of, like in the classroom setup, it's

1645
01:20:23.220 --> 01:20:27.239
a market shift from them being admirers or like, or just sort of

1646
01:20:27.239 --> 01:20:32.819
fans of him to becoming like disciplined like studies of, you know

1647
01:20:32.819 --> 01:20:36.479
like, and that's the thing because Stephen Moffat calls like fans

1648
01:20:36.479 --> 01:20:37.680
of students of the show.

1649
01:20:37.739 --> 01:20:40.439
But he says it in sort of a loving way.

1650
01:20:40.500 --> 01:20:43.319
But it's interesting that that sort of reads, in this episode, that

1651
01:20:43.319 --> 01:20:47.939
comes out as an attempt to kind of, you know, make it less fun and

1652
01:20:47.939 --> 01:20:50.819
organic than it ordinarily would be, you know, but yeah.

1653
01:20:50.880 --> 01:20:55.439
The other day on Gallifrey Bass, people discussing the season 18

1654
01:20:55.439 --> 01:20:58.800
upcoming, probably recently released by the time this comes out

1655
01:20:58.800 --> 01:21:00.119
Blu-ray box set.

1656
01:21:00.180 --> 01:21:04.739
The special features article for it in Doctor Who magazine, they've

1657
01:21:04.739 --> 01:21:07.260
obviously used the template from season 19 because Warrior's Gate

1658
01:21:07.260 --> 01:21:08.640
is listed as having 2 episodes.

1659
01:21:08.699 --> 01:21:11.880
It's on Disk 5, like Black Orchid was, which has 2 episodes.

1660
01:21:11.939 --> 01:21:15.659
And someone commented, they've lost 2 episodes of Warrior's Game.

1661
01:21:15.720 --> 01:21:19.079
And someone else came along and said, isn't it 2 episodes long?

1662
01:21:19.140 --> 01:21:25.199
And I just replied saying, oh, it's it's 4 episodes long and he

1663
01:21:25.199 --> 01:21:28.020
said, oh, I thought all JNT seasons had a two-parter.

1664
01:21:28.079 --> 01:21:29.939
That's what I've been told, and I sort of explained about the

1665
01:21:29.939 --> 01:21:31.020
canine company thing.

1666
01:21:31.079 --> 01:21:34.380
But I just thought there are other fans who would come along and

1667
01:21:34.380 --> 01:21:36.779
berate this person for not knowing that Warrior's Gate was 4

1668
01:21:36.779 --> 01:21:37.140
parts.

1669
01:21:37.560 --> 01:21:41.520
Because Doctor Who Fandom is this weird thing of you've got people

1670
01:21:41.520 --> 01:21:46.380
who've been watching it since they were 7 or 5 or 10, you know.

1671
01:21:46.619 --> 01:21:51.119
But you've also got people who have just switched on the Saranga

1672
01:21:51.119 --> 01:21:54.539
conundrum one night and then gone Google searching because they're

1673
01:21:54.539 --> 01:21:56.880
like, oh, that was that was interesting and a bit weird.

1674
01:21:57.359 --> 01:21:58.800
What?

1675
01:21:58.800 --> 01:22:00.720
There's more of these, you know?

1676
01:22:00.779 --> 01:22:05.340
And I think fan knowledge is something very precious and you can't

1677
01:22:05.340 --> 01:22:08.100
take it for granted that other people have the same knowledge as

1678
01:22:08.100 --> 01:22:08.340
you.

1679
01:22:08.399 --> 01:22:10.920
And I think as soon as you take that for granted, you turn into a

1680
01:22:10.920 --> 01:22:11.760
Victor Kennedy.

1681
01:22:11.819 --> 01:22:15.720
It's not about knowing the production codes because you find them

1682
01:22:15.720 --> 01:22:16.199
interesting.

1683
01:22:16.260 --> 01:22:18.300
It's about knowing the production codes.

1684
01:22:18.300 --> 01:22:21.119
So you can say to someone, what do you mean you don't know what 4

1685
01:22:21.119 --> 01:22:21.899
X was?

1686
01:22:46.199 --> 01:22:50.279
Well, dear Miss Nevia, Zorbolov is gone, and now we're left to

1687
01:22:50.279 --> 01:22:51.899
live with the consequences forever.

1688
01:22:51.960 --> 01:22:55.859
We'll be back next week to see how that goes with fear her.

1689
01:22:55.920 --> 01:22:59.579
In the meantime, you can find us at flightthroughentirety.com

1690
01:22:59.579 --> 01:23:03.119
flight through entirety on Facebook and Apple Podcasts, and at FTE

1691
01:23:03.119 --> 01:23:04.380
podcast on Twitter.

1692
01:23:04.439 --> 01:23:07.380
You can also find us at our series 11 Flashcast, Jody

1693
01:23:07.380 --> 01:23:10.739
Interterterra, which is at Jody Interterra.com, Jody Interterra on

1694
01:23:10.739 --> 01:23:14.699
Apple Podcasts, and at Jody Interterra on Twitter, and at our

1695
01:23:14.699 --> 01:23:18.720
James Bond commentary podcast, Bondfinger, which is at bondfinger

1696
01:23:17.579 --> 01:23:20.939
com, Bondfinger on Facebook and Apple Podcasts, and at

1697
01:23:20.939 --> 01:23:22.920
Bondfingercast on Twitter.

1698
01:23:22.979 --> 01:23:26.340
Until next time, we'll remember you this way.

1699
01:23:26.399 --> 01:23:28.920
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1700
01:23:28.979 --> 01:23:29.699
Good night.

1701
01:23:29.760 --> 01:23:30.300
Good night.

1702
01:23:30.359 --> 01:23:32.100
Anyone fancy a slab?

1703
01:23:36.300 --> 01:23:40.319
That was flight for entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Max Gell

1704
01:23:40.319 --> 01:23:43.859
Barton, Brendan Jones, theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, strings

1705
01:23:43.859 --> 01:23:45.420
performance by Jane Orberg.

1706
01:23:45.479 --> 01:23:48.659
This episode, Linda for Short, was recorded on the 9th of February

1707
01:23:48.659 --> 01:23:51.479
2019 and released on the 19th of May.

1708
01:23:55.079 --> 01:23:59.159
If you enjoyed our discussion of the royal and caldron of fandom

1709
01:23:59.159 --> 01:24:02.220
that gave rise to flights through entirety, you'll also enjoy our

1710
01:24:02.220 --> 01:24:06.180
upcoming 12 volume series on the subject, complete with a 3 volume

1711
01:24:06.180 --> 01:24:08.220
forward by Peter Hayning.

1712
01:24:08.760 --> 01:24:12.960
I think we can probably end it with a moral, do you think?

1713
01:24:13.079 --> 01:24:15.060
What is 4X?

1714
01:24:15.119 --> 01:24:16.800
I don't know, it's season 15.

1715
01:24:18.359 --> 01:24:20.520
It's definitely season 15.

1716
01:24:20.819 --> 01:24:22.199
I was going to say Voyage of the Dam.

1717
01:24:22.260 --> 01:24:23.279
No, no.

1718
01:24:25.079 --> 01:24:26.699
Well, yeah.

1719
01:24:26.699 --> 01:24:28.199
They're using numbers again.

1720
01:24:28.260 --> 01:24:31.619
Foray is some robots.

1721
01:24:31.680 --> 01:24:33.840
Foray's robot and 4Z is invasion of time.

1722
01:24:33.899 --> 01:24:34.680
Okay.

1723
01:24:37.739 --> 01:24:41.460
Peter knows all of them Toby Hate Oak knows all.

1724
01:24:41.460 --> 01:24:42.960
Toby Hate Oak is amazing.

1725
01:24:43.020 --> 01:24:46.140
Like, um, did he direct the...

1726
01:24:46.140 --> 01:24:46.380
No.

1727
01:24:46.439 --> 01:24:48.359
No, he's the...

1728
01:24:48.359 --> 01:24:49.800
He's Monse my Doctor Who scarf.

1729
01:24:49.859 --> 01:24:50.279
Oh, yes.

1730
01:24:50.279 --> 01:24:50.520
Yeah.

1731
01:24:50.579 --> 01:24:53.939
And running through corridors, which is just wonderful.

1732
01:24:54.000 --> 01:25:00.300
I saw I saw him performing my stepson stole my sonic screwdriver.

1733
01:25:00.359 --> 01:25:00.779
Oh, yeah.

1734
01:25:00.840 --> 01:25:04.859
And he's got a bit where he has the Doctor Who program guide and

1735
01:25:04.859 --> 01:25:07.859
he gives it to a member of the audience and says, open it to a

1736
01:25:07.859 --> 01:25:12.659
random page and read me a random name. like from a, from a, um

1737
01:25:12.659 --> 01:25:16.560
from any story, actor, crew, crew is probably better.

1738
01:25:16.680 --> 01:25:21.000
And so someone like reads out this name and he says, ah, now he

1739
01:25:21.000 --> 01:25:23.340
was a guard in the reign of terror and also came back for

1740
01:25:23.340 --> 01:25:25.319
uncredited work in the seeds of death.

1741
01:25:25.619 --> 01:25:28.260
And he does it like 5 or 6 times.

1742
01:25:28.319 --> 01:25:30.420
Yes, I know all of these things.

1743
01:25:30.479 --> 01:25:33.359
No, that doesn't make me superior to you.

1744
01:25:33.420 --> 01:25:35.159
Quite the contrary.

1745
01:25:38.340 --> 01:25:41.579
All right, I'm going to try and do an outro.

1746
01:25:41.640 --> 01:25:42.600
Does that sound like a thing?

1747
01:25:43.380 --> 01:25:47.039
Well, the listener, the Azorbilov is gone forever.