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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:20:19

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that's still got a bit of a love life.

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But let's not go into that.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan, and I'm Max.

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Well, we're back on Earth this week, and that sound you can hear are the cries of a 1000000 fanboys complaining that they're breaking the format.

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But the truth is, it's much stranger than that.

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It's so much darker and so much madder.

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It's love and monsters.

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Sun shining in the sky.

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There ain't a cloud inside.

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It's something.

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Everybody's in the play, and don't you know?

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It's a beautiful day.

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So, Max.

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When you 1st started watching Doctor Who, it was kind of back on the air.

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Yeah, so my memory of these seasons of Doctor Who is sort of a 1000000 miles away from the fandom that I think this episode, maybe, you know, slightly talking about, but it was like sort of that lovely rose tinted part of fandom where you're a kid acting out the episodes at lunchtime after you see it, you know, on the weekend.

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I do have like quite distinct memories of certain episodes and what I thought of them when I was like that age and then coming back and like playing them out with all my friends in the playground.

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I don't remember specifically this episode, but I do remember like there was the few years where you're just not, you don't think of it with a critical, in a critical way.

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It's just all so exciting because it's like the most mad, amazing show and you kind of fall in love with it.

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So that's my, particularly these 1st 2 seasons.

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That's my presiding memory of the 1st 2 years, yeah.

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Were there fan events or fan groups or anything that you were ever involved in?

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I think well, certainly later.

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I think it was, it was probably, as you sort of get to the 11, 12 year old, like, I started watching when I was probably about 6 or 7.

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And then, so by the time, so it was Matt Smith, and I was sort of, yeah, 11 or 12 years old, and that's when you start taking it a bit too seriously, maybe when you're 12 years old.

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And you start, like, you start looking down on, like, the silly episodes, like, loving monsters or, like, you know, boom town.

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I remember just, I remember arguing with a friend of mine about how, you know, how, you know, I loved all the dark ones when I was 12 years old because that's what you...

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Yeah.

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But so about that age, yeah, I remember going to, but it probably only, it was probably just, I was starting to be aware of like big fan events and like, I wanted to meet older doc, particularly at that point because I'd, I'd sort of started watching old Doctor Who as well, classic Doctor Who.

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And so, like, the prospect of meeting Sylvester McCoy at a big...

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I can't remember.

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I actually think I went to one where you were there actually.

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I can't remember what it was, but it was like a big, it was around maybe leaning up to the 50th anniversary.

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I remember this as well.

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There was something on in town.

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It was like a big event.

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And when the new series came out, all those events became kind of more more commercial and more professional and things.

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And I think this was run by some outfit called Lords of Time, possibly.

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Oh, yes.

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Yeah.

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And Sylvester was there and Colin was there.

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And I remember seeing you there.

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And I remember sort of, um, we were talking to Colin Baker, and I don't know Colin Baker.

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I couldn't really be said to know Colin Baker, but Todd knows Colin because back in the day, and this has come up on the podcast before.

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Back in the day, Todd would be guest liaison with all of the guests at our conventions.

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And, you know, his parents had a lovely house on the harbour and he would take them there and he would spend days going out with them and getting to know them.

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And it ended up that he just knows everyone now.

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And so we were all standing around talking to Colin Baker and I was sort of secretly kind of thinking, wow, you know, like Max, you can see me here.

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I'm talking...

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It was a bit crazy.

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I think it was, I do recall, but it's sort of that sort of slow dawning sense, I think.

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I remember in the 1st convention I went to was that I remember, actually, no, I remember it was like 2011 because I remember they were playing, um, a good man goes to war or something.

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So that was like had just aired.

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Yeah, and it was sort of that sensation of, oh, there are people that are crazy here.

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And and it was sort of slightly liberating in a way because you just go, okay, I'm not the total, you know, as Peter probably the anorak. fanboy.

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Like, I'm out anoract here by several, several paces.

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But I think, again, in that, in that way that I was still, I was still super young and it was still a very roast tinted kind of view of this whole situation.

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Like it just seemed all really marvellous, but yeah.

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And you, I mean, you've, you wrote letters to Doctor Who magazine when you were little.

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I had too published.

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There was one there was one because I'd met Sylvester McCoy and then they just released an, I think, was like a big interview like a big profile interview that they just had.

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And it was really fantastic.

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I think it was the one, Unlucky 7, Oh, yes.

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Yeah, that one.

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I met him and also I watched his stuff and like he was one, him and Tom Baker were my 2 favourite when I was a little kid.

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Those 2 were my favourite.

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And still probably now.

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So I just, I was head over heels with his stories and so meeting him was so exciting that I thought, I have to write a letter.

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So I wrote one and it got home getting it, I can remember it landing like the front door and getting it and finding my name and it was a bit ridiculously exciting.

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So good. was really fantastic.

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Well, the funny thing is, that's where I 1st heard of you because I was living in the UK at the time with a Doctor Who magazine subscription, which you knew about Nathan.

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And you messaged me one day on Facebook saying, Go open your thing.

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Is there is there a max on the left?

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Really?

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I do remember that at all.

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I have I have a memory because when...

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It would have to have been me.

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Yeah, when you 1st told me that you Max were going to be on the podcast last series.

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I'm like, Max Jobba.

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I know that next.

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Oh, because I had to look, look, this up.

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Because we had Max and I had the Doctor Who Club at school, which, I mean, Max, that was basically your idea.

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So yeah, so the genesis story of this is that I arrived at the school and there was a whole list of like very obscure clubs.

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I remember there's a tin tin club.

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I think that would have been phased out, but it was still in the list of registered clubs.

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So I thought, well, this seems to be, I won't say what school it is, but it was a school that I thought if any school had a Doctor Who club, This would be the one.

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Yeah.

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And also just like there was such a vast group of people that attended this school that I knew would watch Doctor Who.

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So then I knew I knew one teacher that was really obsessed with it, and I asked him, we should, there should be a Doctor Who club, and he said, yes, there should, but you should also go to see Mr. Bottomley.

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And then that was sort of, yeah, I think I just asked you to do it.

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And then it sort of happened and then we just watched old classic episodes and classrooms at lunchtime every week.

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Still doing it?

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Is it still going?

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It's still going on.

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Because for a while it was like a secret club.

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Well, not secret.

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But it wasn't officially, it was sort of a pirate radio stuff.

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Yeah, exactly. sort of like swapped classrooms every now and then to stay under the radar.

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And then, and then I think I remember when it became like, it was, I had like an official announcement.

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Maybe a year later when it started and it was, we were watching Pyramids of Mars, episode one, and I'd felt like half the school turned up inside one of those little classrooms to watch it.

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Including the headmaster.

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Yeah, that was fun.

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He was roaring with laughter as that poacher guy gets like hugged to death by the 2 mummies.

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But it was really fun and it was because it was fun because a lot of a lot of people that went hadn't seen Old Dot Who.

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I think a lot of people really got into it and what they must have done.

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And it was like a very, I think it was also a very thing of like when you arrived at the school.

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I've heard many things about people seeing that there was Adulthood Club at the school and that sort of swinging the, saying, oh, that this seems like the right school.

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And there is a sort of, there is, if you will permit this sort of slightly long-winded anecdote, because one of the kids that went to this club, his dad directed, well, has directed three episodes, three, four, I think. of Doctor Who?

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Daniel Netheim.

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Yeah, and he, and he, uh, yeah, and he came into one of our, to one of our clubs and brought props and and did the hot, like, sort of talked us through how he filmed.

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It was very lucky that there were really good episodes as well, because otherwise that would have been really awkward.

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But they were fantastic and he was super sweet and it emerged that through that Stephen Moffat had found out that the club existed.

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And I think what did he say?

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He was, he thought it was terrifying.

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I think.

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He found out a bit upsetting.

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But that was great.

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And that sort of Daniel Netheim thing where I was just, you know, I would occasionally see him at sort of events and say hello and stuff like that.

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Or, you know, I introduced myself to him at the big 50th anniversary thing.

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Yeah, with Capaldi, Ingrid Oliver, and Sylvester.

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And that was where we 1st met Stephen from New to Who, was it?

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Or did I dream that?

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Yeah, yeah.

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No, he and his sister had a wonderful photo taken with Peter Capaldi.

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They brought in that publicity shot from the smugglers with William Hartnell, Anika Wills and Michael Craze looking up at the scanner and they said to Peter, can we reenact this?

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Oh, yes.

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And it is the most amazing like the look on, of course, the look on their faces, they're so delighted and really getting into it.

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But Capaldi just immediately slips into that wonderful wide-eyed, terrified thing he does.

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And they're all they're all just looking up.

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Now, of course, they haven't got the Tardus backdrop.

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They've got like that standard kind of mottled blue and purple photographers back there.

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Yeah, yeah.

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But yeah, I long ago stopped getting convention photos.

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I think the last convention photo I got was with Cato Mara while I was dressed as Bonnie Langford. which Kate thought was amazing.

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Oh my god, your body.

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And she blinked halfway through the photo.

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So it just looks like she's totally unimpressed.

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And she's like, darling, darling, shall we take it again?

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I'm like, no, you look like you're really annoying with me.

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Oh, but darling, I'm not annoyed with you.

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But, you know, that photo with Stephen and his sister, Peter Cabaldi kind of made me go, oh, actually, no, these can be nice.

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Because I'd just seen so many where I'm not going to name any talk to celebrity names, but certain people who just are not enthused.

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Yes, hello.

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Yes, yes.

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The cybermen, Yeah, okay, yeah.

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Yes, they were my favourite.

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Thank you.

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You have to think that Capaldi would have been massively into recreating that photo because he is such an incredible fanboy.

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Oh, yes.

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Yes, absolutely.

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What was it he wrote to Barry Ledz?

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Like, how can there be 2 different versions of Atlantis?

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Was that the question?

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But he used to like illustrate fanzine covers and things.

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And like whenever he's on Graham Norton or some chat show, they bring up the fact that like the BBC production office wanted him to stop riding to them.

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Maybe instructed him to stop writing to them.

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One of my favourite Capaldi artwork stories is when Titan comics started doing the comic of him, he sent a sketch of his doctor sort of walking along the rings of a planet to the main comic artist and I forget her name.

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It could be Alice Jang.

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I'm not sure.

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Yeah, but yeah, he just sent it to her saying, you know, thank you for putting my wonderful face in this story.

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And she just uploaded it to Twitter.

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Like, ah.

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Yeah, I mean, both he and Tennant are the 2 big fanboy doctors, aren't they?

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So there's that, I've mentioned it before.

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There's an incredible commentary where it's Moffatt RTD and tenant doing silence in the library.

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Oh, and this is the best commentary in any DVD. so good.

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Is it on the DVDs?

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I thought it was on the DVD or maybe not.

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They were releasing commentaries, I think, as a podcast.

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Oh, I see.

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I've got it somewhere.

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I tried to find it, maybe on the DVD, but, you know, it's at the time where Moffatt knows that he's taking over. and it hasn't been decided whether tenant's going to stay and there's a bit of a joke about that and he jokes about getting Jimmy Nesbit in to have his face on the title sequence and stuff because of Jekyll.

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And he makes these jokes about the monoids and stuff.

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I was kind of like, 0 my god.

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David Tennant knows what a monoid is.

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And of course, he does that.

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Do you remember the 1st time confidential, which we did actually show at the club one time?

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Because all of those people making the show at the time during the RTD era, you know, massive fanboys.

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Like Cornell, who, like he used to come to Australia and pitch story ideas with Kate Orman, who was kind of like my flatmate at the time.

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And there was this whole sort of era in the early 90s where we didn't have a show.

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You know, we tried to feel the Doctor Who shaped hole in our heart by watching the X-Files and Star Trek the Next Generation and stuff.

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And we would sort of get together really quite often at my flat, which was like super central and eat cake and have burgers from Cafe Brontosaurus, which was this sort of fabulous cafe just across the road run by these sort of pair of fabulous lesbians who used to, like, I think we overpaid them one time and they came round to our flat to give us the money back and stuff.

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And that, like, you know, that was where I 1st met James and some of the people that the listeners have been introd to over the last 5 years we've been doing this.

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We have.

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But I mean, we've also had, you know, we've had guests for the 1st time over the last year or so and a lot of those guests are people from that time.

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And we had, I hope everyone or forgive me for saying this, but we had come out 93, where kind of one by one, everyone in the group declared that they were gay.

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I am a homosexual.

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Oh, I am...

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I am also...

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We kind of got quite bored with these revelations by the end.

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Oh dear.

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And then Neil Hurgood came along.

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What do you mean, you're straight?

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honestly. ruining the whole decor.

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But it was spectacular.

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And we, you know, our only experience during the 90s was, of course, with a TV movie and going to a sort of day event, I think, and seeing it.

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Was it at Erskineville, Churchhall?

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Church Hall, yes.

199
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Because that's where I started coming to think.

200
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Yeah, so what was your, because I actually don't fully know your story, I think.

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Right.

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So around 1994, my dad started going to this club called Trekastralis. which is now defunct, but basically Trekastralis turned into Friends of Science Fiction, which is now pretty much culture shock events.

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You know, each one kind of shut down and someone who was involved in the previous one, then moved on to creating the new club.

204
00:16:10.860 --> 00:16:20.820
But at one of the Trek Astralas meetings, a chap called Neil Hogan was there with flyers for the Sydney Doctor Who Science Fiction fan club.

205
00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:23.820
You know, one day, Linda, for sure.

206
00:16:23.940 --> 00:16:30.000
But one day, Walt decided we need to simplify this acronym so it became the Sydney Doctor Who science fiction club.

207
00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:32.460
You got rid of that one.

208
00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:38.100
Yeah, and so 1995.

209
00:16:38.279 --> 00:16:39.659
I started coming to this.

210
00:16:39.720 --> 00:16:46.200
I persuaded my mum to part with, I think, $20 to subscribe to Time Brains 2013.

211
00:16:46.440 --> 00:16:47.039
Oh, my God.

212
00:16:47.100 --> 00:16:50.639
The fanzine of the Sydney to whose science fiction fan club?

213
00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:51.779
Said in the far future.

214
00:16:51.779 --> 00:16:52.980
Said of 2013.

215
00:16:54.240 --> 00:17:07.200
So named because of this wonderful thing I discovered through the Sydney Doctor Who Science Fiction Fan Club, called Dimensions in Time, which was played at 10 AM once a month at the meeting.

216
00:17:07.259 --> 00:17:08.460
Oh my god.

217
00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:08.940
Really?

218
00:17:08.940 --> 00:17:09.839
Every month.

219
00:17:09.900 --> 00:17:22.079
And there was a time in time brains 2013 where there was a one page size 6 font transcript of the whole of dimensions in time, which I believe was done by James.

220
00:17:22.140 --> 00:17:23.039
Right, right.

221
00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:27.599
And I said I said to him recently.

222
00:17:27.660 --> 00:17:30.660
You know, why wasn't there a run of about 6 issues where it was on every page?

223
00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:31.980
Well, we had to fill a page.

224
00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:36.720
But yeah, that's how I got involved.

225
00:17:36.779 --> 00:17:41.819
And I seem to recall that when I started going, there was so the day would start with dimensions in time.

226
00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:45.720
And then as all fantastic days did.

227
00:17:46.380 --> 00:17:48.240
So bizarre.

228
00:17:48.660 --> 00:17:55.559
And then it would go into 4 to 6 episodes of, at that time, Hartnell.

229
00:17:55.619 --> 00:18:00.660
So when I came along, they were showing the time meddler that day, which I'd never seen.

230
00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:02.460
Wow, right.

231
00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:05.279
And then it would be tapes fresh from the US.

232
00:18:05.339 --> 00:18:12.180
So this was where I 1st saw Caretaker, the pilot of Voyager.

233
00:18:12.299 --> 00:18:12.779
Wow.

234
00:18:12.779 --> 00:18:25.380
And also, um, no, it must have been slightly later, but I remember Babylon 5 episodes and I remember the Shadow War and seeing that 9 months before Channel 9 put it on at midnight.

235
00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:26.640
Right, sort of thing.

236
00:18:26.700 --> 00:18:29.940
And you know, there were all these books, which I couldn't afford to buy.

237
00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:33.000
But I did buy one book.

238
00:18:33.059 --> 00:18:40.140
And I read it so much, the cover fell off and I read bits of it to people at school, particularly the double entendres.

239
00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:43.799
It is the discontinuity guide by Cornell Day and Topping.

240
00:18:43.859 --> 00:18:44.400
Wow.

241
00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:47.160
And yeah, I read it cover to cover.

242
00:18:47.220 --> 00:18:47.819
Yeah.

243
00:18:47.819 --> 00:18:59.220
And the line I remember most from it is Terrence Dix is, of course, you can use this book to write your own Doctor Who story and figure out where it fits into continuity.

244
00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:12.059
But remember, if you have a story idea and it doesn't fit in, write it anyway and let future continuity cops adjust to conversion, which it's informed my view of in the Doctor of Universe, everything has happened somewhere.

245
00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:13.500
John and Gillian are legit.

246
00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:18.299
Katerina's a companion and travelled for 6 months with the doctor, but they had to memory wiper.

247
00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:20.940
That happened in a short story, by the way.

248
00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:25.619
Yeah, but that was sort of my burgeoning experience of it.

249
00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:27.720
So I met James around that time.

250
00:19:27.779 --> 00:19:28.380
Yeah.

251
00:19:28.380 --> 00:19:32.279
I would have met Todd around a year later at Huvention 96.

252
00:19:32.519 --> 00:19:34.980
Sorry, Whovention 3, I should say, continuity.

253
00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:37.079
Was that the one with Liz Slayton?

254
00:19:37.140 --> 00:19:37.740
Liz Slayton.

255
00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:42.900
I only turned up to that one for a day to chat with Gary Russell and I never really got to meet Liz.

256
00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:44.880
And Wendy Padbury was at that as well.

257
00:19:44.940 --> 00:19:46.500
No, that was a later one.

258
00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:47.519
Wendy Papery was later.

259
00:19:47.579 --> 00:19:56.519
So yeah, after that came Sylvester and Nicola at Juvention 2000 and then Colin and Ickty, I think, in 2001.

260
00:19:56.940 --> 00:20:01.200
And then Wendy and Janet in 2003.

261
00:20:01.380 --> 00:20:03.299
And I was at a bunch of those.

262
00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:04.619
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

263
00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:09.839
So I think you and I met around 2000, 2001, around the same time I met Richard.

264
00:20:09.900 --> 00:20:10.440
Right, yeah.

265
00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:17.220
Yeah, so I think I met James first, then Todd, then you then Richard, and lots of other people along the way.

266
00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:19.259
Peter Griffiths, funnily enough.

267
00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:30.480
I think I met before all of you because he used to knock around with a friend of the family, Robert McKnight, who created a 1st produced studio 10, for instance.

268
00:20:30.539 --> 00:20:32.160
You know, he works in television now.

269
00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:49.140
He used to make these videos called scanner screen, which, you know, included him, the Melbourne drag queen, Jessica James, or as she was 1st Desiree, but then Desiree in one video was killed in a car accident, except Fraser couldn't drive, the man playing the drag queen.

270
00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:55.559
So it was literally just people pushing the car out of frame and sort of a Bel Lugosi style scream off camera.

271
00:20:55.980 --> 00:21:02.160
But, you know, Robert was inspired to make those videos with his friends because they were all Doctor Who fans.

272
00:21:02.220 --> 00:21:07.980
And now he's gone on to be a successful TV producer and journalist. you know?

273
00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:15.180
But Peter, I don't really recall him as a kid.

274
00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:20.160
But what I do recall is, he appeared on the afternoon show in the Doctor Who quiz.

275
00:21:20.220 --> 00:21:23.880
Yeah, and I think Kate Orman was on an episode of that as well.

276
00:21:23.940 --> 00:21:25.559
Both with the same haircut.

277
00:21:25.619 --> 00:21:26.339
Yeah, yeah.

278
00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:28.440
It was super peak 80s hair.

279
00:21:28.500 --> 00:21:29.220
Oh my god.

280
00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:30.960
Like, he's got a bouffon mullet.

281
00:21:31.019 --> 00:21:35.700
I think he went around and got a Dalek gun and wiped all the tapes.

282
00:21:35.819 --> 00:21:37.380
I have it somewhere.

283
00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:53.460
I have it somewhere in our office because, of course, um, uh, Dallas Jones, also, friend of the podcast and, yeah, one of the founders of the Doctor Who Club of Australia still involves still making fan scenes, making audio dramas now.

284
00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:57.359
He was on that quiz, and of course, I met him through fandom as well.

285
00:21:57.420 --> 00:22:05.519
So, yeah, my path to fandom is very different from yours, Max, because no one else at school watched Doctor Who.

286
00:22:05.579 --> 00:22:08.700
Even though it was, you know, in constant reruns.

287
00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:10.079
No one else watched it.

288
00:22:10.140 --> 00:22:13.619
The only other friend of mine who knew anything about it.

289
00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:17.819
His parents were actually very strict Jehovah's Witnesses, and he didn't have a television.

290
00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:18.599
Oh, no.

291
00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:20.279
All he knew about Doctor Who was.

292
00:22:20.339 --> 00:22:22.440
He watch Castro Valver once on video at the library.

293
00:22:22.500 --> 00:22:23.640
Gosh.

294
00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:26.339
And that was literally all he knew about Doctor.

295
00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:28.799
All my friends knew I watched Doctor Who because I told them.

296
00:22:30.299 --> 00:22:43.500
So instead, me sort of finding my tribe was having to go outside my usual comfort zone because I lived down in Campbelltown, you know, and so had to come into the city to go to these events.

297
00:22:43.799 --> 00:22:45.900
That was me finding that.

298
00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:50.099
And of course, then I got involved in the organisation because I was a precocious little thing.

299
00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:53.880
And you did end up as president and supreme commander of the Doctor Who.

300
00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:54.660
Vice president.

301
00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:57.119
I was vice president to James's president.

302
00:22:57.180 --> 00:22:58.380
Oh, okay.

303
00:22:58.440 --> 00:22:59.640
And there's the title.

304
00:23:02.819 --> 00:23:08.220
And then we were persuaded to leave.

305
00:23:10.019 --> 00:23:12.420
But that's for later.

306
00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:15.359
I think I was very lucky to have that.

307
00:23:15.420 --> 00:23:32.519
Because I think it just coincided really well with the timing of me being sort of 7 years old in 2005 and with a group of friends that were pretty nerdy, you know, like, or not even nerdy, just like a group of friends that just it perfectly like, because everyone was watching Doctor Who at that point.

308
00:23:32.579 --> 00:23:35.519
Like so many, because like our parents have watched it.

309
00:23:35.579 --> 00:23:38.940
So it was it was sort of on anyway, I think, in that 2005.

310
00:23:39.180 --> 00:23:47.460
And it just sort of was this perfect, like, setting fire, the imagination, it kind of just went, yeah, and it just kept...

311
00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:57.059
I remember, I remember my mum and dad being like initially surprised that we were all in love with it, but then kind of loving that we were all loving it in the same way they'd done it.

312
00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:01.079
So it was very it was like an encouraged thing for us all to watch Doctor Who.

313
00:24:01.140 --> 00:24:06.480
And then, generally speaking, at the start of the season, the end of the season, we'd all meet up at, we don't meet up.

314
00:24:06.539 --> 00:24:07.559
We were 7 years old.

315
00:24:07.619 --> 00:24:12.480
We'd go to at someone's house and watch like the 1st episode of the last episode.

316
00:24:12.539 --> 00:24:20.099
So I remember, I remember watching like Smith and Jones and then Last of the Time Lords and different, you know, different places.

317
00:24:20.099 --> 00:24:30.240
And yeah, and I remember sort of there's, so the Russell T. Davis era, very, it's like this very, sort of beautiful memory of that at the age that I was at.

318
00:24:30.299 --> 00:24:34.859
And I think, yeah, like you said, I think it was just lucky that it was on and it was being watched by everyone.

319
00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:39.180
And it was so, and I just remember it being huge in Australia.

320
00:24:39.240 --> 00:24:47.460
I, this is just, I don't, you know, this is just anecdotal and, you know, in my memory, but like, I remember just of everyone talking about it, everyone watching it.

321
00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:50.099
It was just, yeah, it was sort of this.

322
00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:50.759
I was very lucky.

323
00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:53.819
I was very lucky that I went through that, the time that I did.

324
00:24:53.880 --> 00:25:09.299
Because Australia has, you know, he's probably 2nd only to Britain in the amount of Doctor Who, that's or the importance of Doctor Who on TV because, unlike Britain, it was stripped like Monday to Thursday and sometimes Monday to Friday.

325
00:25:09.359 --> 00:25:18.000
So when I was in primary school and then high school, it seemed to be on nearly all the time and we saw lots and lots of baker and pertwee.

326
00:25:18.059 --> 00:25:31.259
And I remember the 1st time that I was aware that there was a new season coming out, was, I think, with Horror of Fang Rock, because I think there was a making of Doctor Who book that might have finished with Talons of Wang Chiang.

327
00:25:31.319 --> 00:25:37.740
And so I was aware that I'm not sure whether it was new or whether it was just new to me because of my knowledge of that book.

328
00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:42.720
But I'm certain that Destiny to the Daleks, I knew that that was a new season coming out.

329
00:25:42.779 --> 00:25:50.940
And so I'd watch it all through high school, friend of the podcast, Matthew and I used to talk about Doctor Who all the time, but it was when I hit university.

330
00:25:51.000 --> 00:26:01.200
There was a thing called Soutec, which was the Sydney University kind of science fiction club, clearly named after the villain in Pyramids of Mars.

331
00:26:01.259 --> 00:26:11.339
And that's where I met, like, I think that's where I met Todd and Peter and Simon and all of these people that have recently kind of guessed it on the podcast.

332
00:26:11.460 --> 00:26:15.119
So, I mean, it's, you know, by the time this goes out, I'll be 50.

333
00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:20.460
And so these are people that I've known for kind of getting on for 30 years.

334
00:26:20.759 --> 00:26:34.619
And, you know, the fact that that at the moment I'm getting together with friends literally every weekend and recording a podcast that, you know, Brendan's created this thing that, as you said, just now has gone on for 5 years.

335
00:26:34.680 --> 00:26:37.799
Like, it's been a creative outlet.

336
00:26:37.859 --> 00:26:41.099
You know, it's something that I think we both like super proud of.

337
00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:42.420
Yeah, yeah, it's part of our internet.

338
00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:43.019
Why should it stop?

339
00:26:43.140 --> 00:26:44.759
That's it.

340
00:26:46.619 --> 00:26:56.819
And the people that we've met, like we talked about meeting Stephen Bee, in person, but the number of people that we've met just through having done the podcast.

341
00:26:57.000 --> 00:26:59.339
Adam Richard a few weeks ago.

342
00:26:59.400 --> 00:27:00.119
Yeah, yeah.

343
00:27:00.180 --> 00:27:01.680
And I know I wasn't on that episode.

344
00:27:01.740 --> 00:27:07.440
But the funny thing is, I met Adam Richard because of the podcast, but completely unrelated to this.

345
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:07.799
Oh, really?

346
00:27:07.859 --> 00:27:13.980
The ABC held a podcasting day. like a podcasting symposium, if you like.

347
00:27:14.039 --> 00:27:15.720
And Adam Richard was there.

348
00:27:15.720 --> 00:27:21.180
And I was such a fan of his work in Outland that I just walked up and hello, Mr. Richard.

349
00:27:21.299 --> 00:27:22.920
And he's like, oh, hello.

350
00:27:22.980 --> 00:27:32.279
And, you know, we had like a good half hour chat with Shampers and canapes and what have you in the in the reception after the conference.

351
00:27:32.339 --> 00:27:33.900
He's such a lovely band.

352
00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:45.779
So, you know, Nathan was slightly apologetic to me, not being on the Adam Richard episode, but he's like, oh, you know, Richard, Adam, know each other and James is the one who contacted him and 5 people's view.

353
00:27:45.779 --> 00:27:47.220
I don't mind, I've met it before.

354
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:51.420
You know, it's like, yes, yes, it would be fun, but at the same time.

355
00:27:52.500 --> 00:27:57.240
One thing I can't stand in fandom is fans pulling rank.

356
00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:04.140
And some people call it gatekeeping now, but even things like just, you know, just sort of...

357
00:28:04.140 --> 00:28:08.160
Oh, what do you mean you don't know who played the 3rd garden state of decay?

358
00:28:08.220 --> 00:28:09.900
sort of attitudes.

359
00:28:10.019 --> 00:28:14.039
So when I decided I wasn't going to do every episode of the podcast anymore.

360
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:21.420
Something I decided was, I would never argue about what episode I was allocated.

361
00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:24.119
Like, of course, I do put myself forward for certain episodes.

362
00:28:24.180 --> 00:28:33.779
Like, this is one I put myself down for But I never wanted to be the person who would, you know, say to Nathan at one point.

363
00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:34.980
Well, I created the podcast.

364
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:40.740
I should be allowed to be on New Earth. didn't want to.

365
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:43.380
Just kidding.

366
00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:44.160
Love you.

367
00:28:44.220 --> 00:28:45.299
Love you, Zoe, Wanamaker.

368
00:28:45.359 --> 00:29:12.480
I actually kind of feel that with my sort of constant nagging about how to hold the microphone and please turn up at this particular date and, you know, assigning people to be at different places and in different episodes and giving James imperious messages about who to contact next and stuff like that, that, you know, like I'm kind of turning into the sort of Victor Kennedy of the groove.

369
00:29:12.779 --> 00:29:15.900
But I saw a lovely shade of green.

370
00:29:16.380 --> 00:29:31.619
I still think I still think that there's a sort of creativity that so many people have been inspired to undertake, you know, people who've ended up making the show and people who are inspired by the show to do stuff like this.

371
00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:32.579
Yes.

372
00:29:32.579 --> 00:29:35.279
And I think it's been really incredible.

373
00:29:35.339 --> 00:29:54.299
And I, I, I literally have to say that watching Doctor Who has completely changed my life and that the people that I kind of know and love and meet regularly and see are kind of really all people that I've met through my love of the show.

374
00:29:54.359 --> 00:29:56.039
It's really very strange.

375
00:29:56.099 --> 00:30:16.019
It's also the thing that made me definitely want to do what I'm studying at the moment, which is screenwriting and stuff and doing all that because literally that started from A sort of being in the playground and sort of acting out Doctor Who and then doing like, there's an acting school in Sydney called Nider that for a while hosted Doctor Who's specific.

376
00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:16.559
Yeah.

377
00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:21.240
Summer courses as a, as an obviously like cash in, cash in.

378
00:30:21.299 --> 00:30:34.559
No, no, but no, but it was tiny. because you got to tie it. and you, but you also got to, I think they, it was a very shrewd move because I think they understood how many people start wanting to be in the industry or to write or to act or to do whatever from this show.

379
00:30:34.619 --> 00:30:36.660
And that was exactly what happened to me.

380
00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:41.160
I read the writer's tale and then, like, when I was 10 and then became obsessed.

381
00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:43.500
And then because all the scripts are laid out in that book.

382
00:30:43.559 --> 00:30:43.980
Yeah.

383
00:30:43.980 --> 00:30:47.099
And that was sort of the realisation that, oh, that's something you can do.

384
00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:50.039
You can you don't have to necessarily be in Doctor Who.

385
00:30:50.039 --> 00:30:51.599
You can make it and you can write it.

386
00:30:51.660 --> 00:30:58.680
And it was sort of pretty early that I sort of worked out that writing the show was something that would be like, that's sort of the dream job.

387
00:30:58.740 --> 00:31:03.480
Not, you know, like, you know, like when you're a kid, you always like, oh, I really want to be Doctor Who and all that kind of stuff.

388
00:31:03.539 --> 00:31:09.000
But very quickly, I realised that like Russell T. Davis was that that was a cool job to be Russell T. Davis.

389
00:31:09.059 --> 00:31:10.799
That was Pete McTani's experience.

390
00:31:10.859 --> 00:31:17.099
Yeah, so, and again, I met him like in the 90s and like have known him for a really long time.

391
00:31:17.220 --> 00:31:18.720
He was kind of part of the group.

392
00:31:18.779 --> 00:31:35.940
And, you know, then he moved back to Adelaide and all sorts of other things, but he, in the publicity to series 11, like when the writers were announced, he said that his entire career has been a plan that he's been hatching since the age of 10 to one day ride for Doctor Who.

393
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:46.140
And, you know, he's a very accomplished scriptwriter and has contributed enormously to a huge number of different TV programs, but he finally, you know, achieves.

394
00:31:46.200 --> 00:31:46.920
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

395
00:31:46.980 --> 00:31:50.279
And he wrote one of the best episodes of the most recent season.

396
00:31:50.339 --> 00:31:50.640
Yeah.

397
00:31:50.700 --> 00:31:51.359
Yeah, absolutely.

398
00:31:51.420 --> 00:31:56.819
And I think it's an episode that you can tell kind of exudes love for the show.

399
00:31:56.880 --> 00:31:57.480
Yeah.

400
00:31:57.480 --> 00:31:59.220
I think it's like of that whole run.

401
00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:02.940
I think it's the episode that, oh, this sounds very gatekeeping.

402
00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:12.599
But I just mean to say that you can, you can, that enthusiasm and like love for the show is so apparent in the episode he wrote, I think. yeah.

403
00:32:12.660 --> 00:32:26.940
I think Vinay Patel, who wrote Demons of the Punjab, actually said that he kind of really understood the show better after seeing Pete's enthusiasm for it.

404
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:32.640
Like he literally mentioned how Pete's love of the program kind of informed his writing for it.

405
00:32:32.700 --> 00:32:35.279
And I just think that's that's really incredible.

406
00:32:35.339 --> 00:32:36.660
Yeah absolutely.

407
00:32:51.720 --> 00:32:54.720
This is a bit of a divisive episode, I think.

408
00:32:54.779 --> 00:33:01.619
And when I got this team of people together to discuss Love and Monsters.

409
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:15.299
One of the things was I didn't want to put out an episode where 3 people just ripped into the show and I had always kind of like the show, but thought it was really flawed and had some real problems with it.

410
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:23.640
But now, having watched it twice in preparation for the podcast, I think it's one of Russell's best scripts.

411
00:33:23.700 --> 00:33:25.380
I would agree.

412
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:38.759
I, I think, um, there's the hot, there's a very, like, established, respectable in quotation marks opinion that it's a great 35 minutes and then a terrible 5 minute of a lousy 10 minutes.

413
00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:44.220
Which I think does carry a bit of, I think that's a fair assessment of it.

414
00:33:44.279 --> 00:33:49.859
But I really, I don't think it's emphasised enough how fantastic the 1st 35 minutes are.

415
00:33:49.920 --> 00:33:52.559
And I think there's also aspects about the ending that I love as well.

416
00:33:52.619 --> 00:34:01.920
But certainly the 1st 35 minutes is probably next to maybe the girl in the fireplace, my favourite episode of the season up until a certain point.

417
00:34:02.039 --> 00:34:07.079
Coming up a certain shift, which I think is fine.

418
00:34:07.140 --> 00:34:10.079
Anyway, sorry, I'm really labouring this point.

419
00:34:10.139 --> 00:34:12.599
But I think it's a really fantastic script.

420
00:34:12.659 --> 00:34:12.960
Yeah.

421
00:34:13.019 --> 00:34:16.199
Do you have the same reservations or how do you feel about it, Brandon?

422
00:34:16.679 --> 00:34:23.099
Going back to 2006, that was when I was running the day events for the Doctor Who Club of Australia.

423
00:34:23.159 --> 00:34:31.619
So we had 3 events because the ABC were showing episodes 3 months later still at this point.

424
00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:34.500
So we would acquire the episodes.

425
00:34:34.500 --> 00:34:39.239
And I'm pretty sure for this particular day event, and you can always deny this, Nathan.

426
00:34:39.300 --> 00:34:46.559
But I'm pretty sure you're the one who turned up with the acquired copy of Doomsday at like 3 in the afternoon, maybe.

427
00:34:46.619 --> 00:34:49.860
That's entirely possible You know, we will talk about it.

428
00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:57.300
We'll talk about it later, but I watched it beforehand to make sure that I didn't cry in front of everyone when it was screened later, but Did you still cry?

429
00:34:57.360 --> 00:34:58.320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

430
00:34:58.380 --> 00:35:02.280
So these events were called the new tenant.

431
00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:03.420
Oh dear.

432
00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:05.820
So, um...

433
00:35:08.340 --> 00:35:16.019
So the 1st event, which was the 1st 4 episodes was called moving in.

434
00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:16.739
Right.

435
00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:31.380
The 2nd event with episodes 5 to 9, I want to say, was called Houseguests, and this event with Love and Monsters, Fear Her, and the 2 part finale, was called Home Invasion.

436
00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:32.460
Oh, dear.

437
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:39.840
And the 1st two, I actually made videos for to start the day and they are the 1st 2 videos on my YouTube channel.

438
00:35:39.900 --> 00:35:40.619
Oh, really?

439
00:35:40.739 --> 00:35:44.219
And they still get people, like, they'll get one or 2 views a week.

440
00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:48.780
You know, they're standard deaf, horribly pixelated.

441
00:35:49.380 --> 00:35:50.820
Yeah.

442
00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:56.159
But at this point, we were in the Menzies Hotel, which I think is closed down now.

443
00:35:56.219 --> 00:36:13.679
Yeah, the Menzies Hotel at Wynyard in the downstairs bar because the bar manager, friend of the podcast, Andrew, was a Doctor Who fan, and a friend of James's and said, look, we never get anyone in the sporties bar on a Sunday afternoon, I can give you the room for free if people drink.

444
00:36:13.739 --> 00:36:15.900
And, you know, we did.

445
00:36:15.900 --> 00:36:16.559
Who fans?

446
00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:22.800
So, we watched Love and Monsters. in a dark basement room.

447
00:36:22.980 --> 00:36:24.659
Oh, wow.

448
00:36:24.659 --> 00:36:26.159
As a group of facts.

449
00:36:28.679 --> 00:36:33.719
So already this story holds a special place in my heart because of that.

450
00:36:33.780 --> 00:36:43.139
The other reason, and I don't think I've really stated this explicitly on the podcast before I think I've hinted it, but the week before this event is when I met Rod.

451
00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:44.340
Oh, okay.

452
00:36:44.460 --> 00:36:45.119
My partner.

453
00:36:45.179 --> 00:36:51.900
And because we got chatting, because as I was taking his number on my Motorola razor.

454
00:36:52.199 --> 00:36:53.039
Oh, love that.

455
00:36:53.579 --> 00:36:55.079
2006.

456
00:36:55.260 --> 00:36:56.940
Oh, Max doesn't even know what that is.

457
00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:58.920
Sorry, I can't understand you.

458
00:36:58.980 --> 00:36:59.760
It's a flip phone.

459
00:36:59.820 --> 00:37:01.019
It's a flip phone.

460
00:37:01.079 --> 00:37:13.079
I've heard about them And I had a Colin Baker wallpaper on my flip phone that I'd made myself in Photoshop. to which Rod said, how do you know who the crap doctor is?

461
00:37:13.139 --> 00:37:14.880
Paul Colin.

462
00:37:15.179 --> 00:37:18.840
And yeah, found he found out I was a Doctor Who fan.

463
00:37:18.900 --> 00:37:25.619
And I explained, actually, I've got this event next week. you should come Yeah, he turned up in the final scene of Doomsday.

464
00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:26.579
Oh, no.

465
00:37:26.579 --> 00:37:28.320
Where I...

466
00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:30.360
We were crying in a manly way.

467
00:37:33.900 --> 00:37:36.000
And you've been together.

468
00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:41.519
Well, we dated for another 8 months, broke up, and then we got back together again in 2012.

469
00:37:42.119 --> 00:37:47.400
So that day is indelibly printed on my memory.

470
00:37:47.460 --> 00:37:56.219
But look, I've always loved this episode, and I think I've always loved this episode because I recognised myself in it.

471
00:37:56.340 --> 00:38:09.719
And there was criticism in reviews at the time that this was an insulting parody of fans, but I think it's an affectionate parody of fans, and I think there is a very important difference.

472
00:38:09.780 --> 00:38:12.179
I think if you want an insulting parody of fans.

473
00:38:12.239 --> 00:38:17.219
You go look at Star Trek, Next Generation, season 2, Samaritan Snare, with the pack-leds.

474
00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:18.000
Yeah, yeah.

475
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:21.780
And you look at hollow pursuits with Barclay.

476
00:38:21.780 --> 00:38:24.360
And they are insulting parodies of fans.

477
00:38:24.420 --> 00:38:36.599
But the amazing thing is it totally backfires because the Packlads take Geordie prisoner and, you know, hold up the entire crew and almost get Captain Picard killed because Dr. Pulaski can't perform surgery or him.

478
00:38:36.659 --> 00:38:47.519
And in holo pursuits, you know, Barclay is presented as this character we laugh at, and it's like, no, you keep bringing back Barclay because we love Barclay because we are Barclay.

479
00:38:47.579 --> 00:38:57.000
Whereas this is, it is a love letter to fandom, but also a warning about it consuming you, literally in this case.

480
00:38:57.480 --> 00:39:05.039
Because, you know, when Linda starts up, they're all obsessed with the doctor, but they start sharing their other passions and their other interests.

481
00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:06.659
And that's where the friendship forms.

482
00:39:06.780 --> 00:39:09.119
It's absolutely my favourite part of the episode.

483
00:39:09.960 --> 00:39:12.360
Because they're such dorks.

484
00:39:12.420 --> 00:39:18.119
And like Mark Warren, like Elton, you know, dancing in his alone in his room to ELO.

485
00:39:18.179 --> 00:39:19.440
I listen to that on the way here.

486
00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:21.119
I was listening to it all last night.

487
00:39:21.239 --> 00:39:24.420
And again, it's a super daggy song as well.

488
00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:30.000
But just how sweet they all are, just how absolutely sweet.

489
00:39:30.059 --> 00:39:35.400
And they're awkward and they're shy and we were as well.

490
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:40.440
And, you know, they pair off, they fall in love with one another.

491
00:39:40.500 --> 00:39:46.199
They're cooking, they're playing music, and then they get murdered one by one, one.

492
00:39:46.500 --> 00:39:49.440
It happens almost immediately too, doesn't it?

493
00:39:49.500 --> 00:39:51.300
Who mentioned 3 was crazy.

494
00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:52.800
But it's true.

495
00:39:52.860 --> 00:39:55.679
It's so, I love, and particularly Bridget.

496
00:39:55.739 --> 00:39:57.360
Yeah, by Moya Brady.

497
00:39:57.420 --> 00:40:10.739
She's, I love that, even it's such a small little moment, but I love when you learn about what's, you know, has kept her coming to London and it's just such a classic Russell T Davis thing to just like, there's not much space actually given to them.

498
00:40:10.860 --> 00:40:13.019
You find, like, it's done really economically.

499
00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:24.179
You find out, you know, about these people fairly quickly, but each character has sort of a sort of an outer shell that they're putting up and then there is sort of some sort of deeper reason that they're here or whatever.

500
00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:27.659
And I think I think that's just so sensitively handled.

501
00:40:27.719 --> 00:40:31.199
And it makes their deaths kind of hurt quite a bit.

502
00:40:31.260 --> 00:40:39.300
I think even people who don't like the episode of in even criticism, they criticise how cruel the murdering of all these people seems.

503
00:40:39.360 --> 00:40:41.099
And I think it is like, it is awful.

504
00:40:41.159 --> 00:40:45.059
I think that that was my previous objection to it.

505
00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:50.099
And like, I agree with what you say about the way he makes us love those people.

506
00:40:50.159 --> 00:40:53.340
Bliss really doesn't have that much to do.

507
00:40:53.400 --> 00:41:01.800
She's just really in that sort of montage of a couple of minutes before Victor Kennedy turns up and she's so beautiful and so adorable.

508
00:41:01.860 --> 00:41:10.139
And they're all just terrifically lovely and their awkwardness, which they kind of don't fully lose among themselves.

509
00:41:10.199 --> 00:41:19.860
Bridget and Mr. Skinner doing that awkward kiss is so heartbreakingly sweet and he just keeps murdering them.

510
00:41:19.980 --> 00:41:29.579
And it's something that Russell does, I think you've, yeah, Stephen Moffatt said about Russell T. Davis, he creates interesting characters, then melts them.

511
00:41:29.639 --> 00:41:30.000
Yeah.

512
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:33.119
And you remember Cucumber Max?

513
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:40.500
Yeah. where it's episode six, I think, which is absolutely Russell doing that.

514
00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:41.820
It's absolutely.

515
00:41:41.880 --> 00:41:47.579
It's an episode where he tells us that a really likeable character is dead.

516
00:41:47.639 --> 00:41:55.199
Then we get to see their entire life and then we get to watch them die from a perspective of being inside their head.

517
00:41:55.199 --> 00:41:59.340
So you get to experience their actual death in a sort of 1st person way.

518
00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:02.460
And it absolutely destroyed me.

519
00:42:02.519 --> 00:42:05.039
It's really the most upsetting thing I've ever seen on TV.

520
00:42:05.099 --> 00:42:06.420
I was alone in the house.

521
00:42:06.539 --> 00:42:13.320
My husband was away and I watched it and I didn't know anyone else who was watching it, so I had no one to talk to about it.

522
00:42:13.380 --> 00:42:18.360
And I was so devastated and I tried to hug the dog and the dog wasn't particularly interested.

523
00:42:18.599 --> 00:42:21.179
And then I remember the next morning.

524
00:42:21.239 --> 00:42:35.699
I remember the next morning going to work and having the 1st couple of periods off and having to go to a cafe to be away from people and then chatting to Peter, sometime guest of the podcast, Peter, about the episode, he was in Britain.

525
00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:41.340
And there's a real darkness to Russell's writing from time to time.

526
00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:53.219
And I think that back in the 60s and 70s, where the people who died on Doctor Who were people, they were men who were known only by their last names, who worked on a space base.

527
00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:54.780
And that's a cheat.

528
00:42:54.840 --> 00:42:58.260
You know, it doesn't matter when those people die because they're no one.

529
00:42:58.380 --> 00:43:12.539
And reminding us that death, which is just kind of a plot point or an atmosphere point or something to raise the stakes in Doctor Who, is a real, a real thing that we all experience.

530
00:43:12.599 --> 00:43:25.019
Um, you know, in our families and in our groups of friends and colleagues, you know, that people die and it's, it's heartbreaking, that's what Russell wants to talk about.

531
00:43:25.079 --> 00:43:27.480
So those deaths are proper deaths.

532
00:43:27.539 --> 00:43:38.940
And even the fact that they're humiliated before they die, even the fact that they become this joke, which I think, again, people could quite reasonably object to.

533
00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:44.579
And also, well, there's still, Bliss is still sort of a joke when she's on his bum and he farts.

534
00:43:44.639 --> 00:43:50.579
And I kind of wonder whether the actor refused to get made up, but I don't think so.

535
00:43:50.639 --> 00:43:54.059
I think it was probably a budget saving thing where we just have to make up some of them.

536
00:43:54.420 --> 00:43:56.699
Death can be like that as well.

537
00:43:56.760 --> 00:44:06.719
You know, in hospitals, there's humiliation and drool and shit and people don't leave easily.

538
00:44:06.840 --> 00:44:14.880
So, you know, the grotesqueness of it is the kind of grotesqueness that I think that they're not we thought that Doctor Who always had.

539
00:44:14.940 --> 00:44:19.260
You know, they always thought Doctor Who was sort of weird people in rubber suits and that kind of thing.

540
00:44:19.320 --> 00:44:23.940
And here that grotesqueness is super alienating and upsetting.

541
00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:28.440
Like, you know, I've read reviews that say it would have been better if they'd just been killed.

542
00:44:28.500 --> 00:44:36.840
And I think Russell making us aware of their, you know, the humiliation of the process.

543
00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:38.219
It's bleak.

544
00:44:38.280 --> 00:44:39.239
It's super horrible.

545
00:44:39.300 --> 00:44:42.840
It is. and you know, Elton shouts, that's not fair.

546
00:44:42.900 --> 00:44:49.440
And it's, it kind of ties in with the theme of this season of, you know, the doctor saying, I only take the best.

547
00:44:49.500 --> 00:44:55.320
He said it last season and he and Rose have this belief that they are the best.

548
00:44:55.440 --> 00:44:56.519
The stuff of legends.

549
00:44:56.519 --> 00:44:57.539
The stuff of legends.

550
00:44:57.599 --> 00:45:04.679
And here we have 5 characters who are potential Doctor Who companions.

551
00:45:04.739 --> 00:45:13.260
You know, Shirley Henderson as Ursula and Bliss, they're sort of the archetype, they're the young ladies, but...

552
00:45:13.260 --> 00:45:19.440
In the audios at this point, we've got Evelyn Smythe, of course.

553
00:45:19.500 --> 00:45:27.659
So you could have an older companion, like Mr. Skinner, or like Bridget, Mark Warren is sort of an advocate turlo hybrid.

554
00:45:27.719 --> 00:45:31.320
You know, he's very intelligent, but he's very awkward.

555
00:45:31.380 --> 00:45:34.139
But these people...

556
00:45:34.199 --> 00:45:35.400
They go hunting after the doctor.

557
00:45:35.460 --> 00:45:36.960
They kind of marry Sue characters.

558
00:45:37.019 --> 00:45:40.619
But instead of being the Mary Sue who saves the day.

559
00:45:40.860 --> 00:45:48.179
They are sacrificial loud. sacrificed and they're obliterated and it's not fair.

560
00:45:48.239 --> 00:45:49.139
No, yeah.

561
00:45:49.139 --> 00:45:52.019
And that is something that Russell does so well.

562
00:45:52.079 --> 00:45:58.500
And I think next to this, the best example of it is in Torchwood Children of Earth.

563
00:45:58.559 --> 00:46:05.880
And Gwen gets that monologue to camera where she says, I think sometimes the doctor doesn't come back because he's ashamed of us.

564
00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:15.539
The difference here is, of course, it is an external force. corrupting something about humanity, corrupting a passion.

565
00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:20.699
Um, I love Elton as the narrator.

566
00:46:20.760 --> 00:46:28.320
I think he's deliberately set up to be a slightly unreliable narrator, and they're a deliberate visual cues for that.

567
00:46:28.380 --> 00:46:29.760
There's the Scooby-Doo sequence.

568
00:46:29.820 --> 00:46:34.619
And I think fans, fans often fall into 2 camps.

569
00:46:34.679 --> 00:46:39.539
And I'm also going to say with that, fans like putting things in a hierarchy.

570
00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:50.880
You know, says the guy whose YouTube videos kind of consist of, yeah, top 5 lists. and bottom 5 lists and, you know, ranking all the Dalek stories and things.

571
00:46:50.940 --> 00:46:51.659
But no, we do.

572
00:46:51.719 --> 00:46:52.619
We love ranking things.

573
00:46:52.679 --> 00:47:02.760
And I think the 2 camps people fall into for this episode is people look at the visuals and take them entirely, literally.

574
00:47:02.820 --> 00:47:06.900
Or people look at them and understand that they're a metaphor.

575
00:47:07.019 --> 00:47:13.800
So the chase between the Dr. Rose and the Hoyks probably didn't look like a Scooby-Doo chase.

576
00:47:13.860 --> 00:47:19.800
But Elton translates it as that because that's what it feels like to him. you know.

577
00:47:19.860 --> 00:47:23.880
I think also too, it's Russell, because that stuff happens really very early on.

578
00:47:23.940 --> 00:47:33.239
And you have Russell getting Elton to say that he's constructing the episode, that's a really good bit.

579
00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:34.079
I'm going to hook you.

580
00:47:34.139 --> 00:47:38.099
We're going back in time, but he's put that beat at the top.

581
00:47:38.159 --> 00:47:38.639
Exactly.

582
00:47:38.699 --> 00:47:40.739
Yeah, it's always a cheat, isn't it?

583
00:47:40.860 --> 00:47:53.159
Where they used to do it in Battlestar Galactica all the time where some really exciting bit of action would happen and then you would get the credits and then you would get 24 hours earlier and you would realise they'd just put an exciting bit at the beginning because they wanted to get you in.

584
00:47:53.219 --> 00:47:58.679
But he's constructing the narrative is explicitly saying that he's constructing the narrative.

585
00:47:58.739 --> 00:48:02.940
But, I mean, when you talk about what the chase was really like.

586
00:48:03.000 --> 00:48:08.820
Of course, that isn't a question that has an answer because all there is is Elton's version.

587
00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:12.179
And I think people who create the Hooniverse.

588
00:48:12.239 --> 00:48:19.980
People who have that idea that this is a series of stories that happen to a single individual in a self-consistent world.

589
00:48:20.039 --> 00:48:35.400
They're the people who get angry at this sort of thing because it makes that world ridiculous in some way, that that world isn't a world that can be fully taken seriously, because it has an absorbable off in it.

590
00:48:35.460 --> 00:48:39.780
And I think that that's the wrong way to look at it.

591
00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:46.920
That's a way to look at it, that ends up with you angry at huge swathes of the program.

592
00:48:46.980 --> 00:48:47.760
Absolutely.

593
00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:59.219
I mean, the thing with this story, as much as I love it, it's like the mind robber, or Kinder, or midnight, or turn left, it's an experiment.

594
00:48:59.280 --> 00:49:03.780
And if the show was like this every week, I probably wouldn't enjoy it.

595
00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:05.519
And you know what?

596
00:49:05.579 --> 00:49:10.079
I put the Caves of Andrazani in that category as well I've spoken about my opinion of Caves of Andrazani before.

597
00:49:10.139 --> 00:49:15.179
But isn't it wonderful that we can have this kind of story?

598
00:49:15.659 --> 00:49:20.639
Russell often spoke about how he'd been inspired by shows like Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

599
00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:24.539
This is directly inspired by Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode called The Zeppo.

600
00:49:24.599 --> 00:49:25.500
Yeah, yeah.

601
00:49:25.559 --> 00:49:28.199
It's about like secondary characters, really.

602
00:49:28.260 --> 00:49:29.159
Or like...

603
00:49:29.159 --> 00:49:30.179
It's Xander, I think.

604
00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:30.659
Xander.

605
00:49:30.719 --> 00:49:31.019
Yeah.

606
00:49:31.079 --> 00:49:43.860
So Xander who, you know, in the early seasons, there's lots of, lots of jokes where he's like the most useless member of the gang, but he's the one who has to face threat and the others just sort of run in and out of shot dealing with another menace kind of thing.

607
00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:44.820
It's great.

608
00:49:44.880 --> 00:49:48.840
They have a massive apocalypse happening kind of off screen.

609
00:49:48.900 --> 00:49:54.599
And the bits that we see of it are just overwrought and utterly ridiculous.

610
00:49:54.659 --> 00:50:01.320
And meanwhile, he's saving the world on a smaller scale and he loses his virginity and all sorts of sort of fun things happen.

611
00:50:01.380 --> 00:50:11.400
And there's also the storyteller, isn't there, in series 7 of Buffy, where a secondary character has a camera and constructs a narrative.

612
00:50:11.460 --> 00:50:12.000
Yeah.

613
00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:28.679
Survival of the dead, George Romero's last dead film, I believe, uses this device as well, but it's really kind of cynically done and James Rolf, who runs cinemassacre.com, which specialises in video game stuff and horror movie stuff.

614
00:50:28.739 --> 00:50:43.139
He's a massive fan of George Romero, but he got to this movie and he's just like, because the Elton character of the movie, I forget her name, she actually lampshades that, you know, this is footage I took, but I've put music over it because that's what you do in movies, isn't it?

615
00:50:43.199 --> 00:50:45.239
That's an actual line from this.

616
00:50:45.300 --> 00:50:58.619
Whereas Elton, you know, he might say, oh, I put that bit at the beginning to sort of draw you in, but it's very clear that this is like a believable task that he's actually assembling all this stuff.

617
00:50:58.679 --> 00:51:02.519
Like that you don't, you totally buy it as something that he would do.

618
00:51:02.519 --> 00:51:37.320
And that his, like, I love the idea that he's inserting all the little cutaways to like Elton John or and he thinks he needs to go and dance to Mr. Blue Sky to cut it into the, like, I love, I love, it's totally plausible to me, and I think that's the strength of the writing, but I think probably predominantly Mark Warren's performance, that that is so, it really hangs together, I think, because of his performance because it's so plausible and it's so, you just, you totally buy that this, this construction of this episode is his attempt to find meaning in this, you know?

619
00:51:37.380 --> 00:51:38.579
It's amazing.

620
00:51:38.639 --> 00:51:44.880
He sort of borders on loveable and irritating. like sweet and irritating at the same time.

621
00:51:44.940 --> 00:51:46.800
Oh, hi, it's me, age 16.

622
00:51:46.920 --> 00:51:49.019
Yeah, yeah, well, that's it. all of us, I think.

623
00:51:49.079 --> 00:51:54.420
And there's that wonderful scene with Jackie who we haven't mentioned yet.

624
00:51:54.480 --> 00:51:58.199
And this is a superb performance from her.

625
00:51:58.260 --> 00:52:00.840
It's the last thing that they shoot in series two.

626
00:52:00.900 --> 00:52:02.760
And they get her back.

627
00:52:02.820 --> 00:52:11.280
Russell writes it at the end and realises he wants more Jackie in the season, which is a creative decision that we're all absolutely behind. absolutely.

628
00:52:11.280 --> 00:52:15.840
And he doesn't know how to meet people and become friends with them.

629
00:52:15.900 --> 00:52:24.059
And there's stages that he's been coached in by Victor Kennedy because he's such an anorak that he can't do that.

630
00:52:24.119 --> 00:52:35.400
But of course, Jackie has effortlessly mastered all of those stages and she manages to hit each one before he even gets the opportunity because she's normal and loveable.

631
00:52:35.460 --> 00:52:41.400
And we've said before, that she represents someone who would never have watched Doctor Who or never been in it before.

632
00:52:41.519 --> 00:52:43.679
She's from the real world.

633
00:52:43.739 --> 00:52:47.579
And the 2 of them are wonderful together.

634
00:52:47.639 --> 00:53:03.719
And I think one of the highlights is when he realises that trying to find the doctors actually nonsense and what he should really be doing is becoming mates with Jackie because Jackie's sad and lonely.

635
00:53:03.780 --> 00:53:15.960
And I love how it's, it almost, I realise how clever that setup was that you think he's, he sort of wants to become friends with Jackie, but there's also that subtext of knowing that he, he's going to go and ask Ursula out.

636
00:53:16.019 --> 00:53:18.840
Like it's just so there's so much going on in that scene.

637
00:53:18.900 --> 00:53:20.400
I agree. and when Jackie's on the phone.

638
00:53:20.460 --> 00:53:25.679
It's just like one of her best perfor- like that scene, I think, is just so fantastic.

639
00:53:25.739 --> 00:53:28.860
It's like one of the, I just love her performance so much.

640
00:53:28.860 --> 00:53:36.179
And it's so, she gives such a nuanced performance that I don't think poop enough people give credit for because it's just, yeah.

641
00:53:36.239 --> 00:53:40.019
Well, because there's a whole sequence where she looks like she wants to have sex with him.

642
00:53:40.079 --> 00:53:46.079
And, you know, she's wonderful at comedy and she is sometimes just played as a comedy character, I think, in the 1st episode.

643
00:53:46.139 --> 00:53:47.820
She's a comedy character.

644
00:53:47.880 --> 00:53:50.099
And she does that here.

645
00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:51.539
She's trying to have sex with him.

646
00:53:51.599 --> 00:54:01.800
She looks at him like he's stretching up to do something from the roof and we see, you know, his flat stomach and and, you know, she looks at his bum and she's pouring wine on him.

647
00:54:01.860 --> 00:54:13.679
And she's doing all this broad comedy and then she gets the phone call from Rose and then she realises, no, I'm just really incredibly lonely and I'm being silly.

648
00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:18.480
And she's so happy when he offers to just watch telly with her.

649
00:54:18.599 --> 00:54:21.840
And the moment that they mentioned Mickey as well.

650
00:54:21.900 --> 00:54:25.739
Oh my god, you know, like I used to have this mate, Mickey, and he's gone.

651
00:54:25.860 --> 00:54:28.679
And of course, to Elton, that means nothing.

652
00:54:28.739 --> 00:54:31.739
Like nothing in Victor's briefing has mentioned Mickey.

653
00:54:31.800 --> 00:54:32.579
Yeah.

654
00:54:32.579 --> 00:54:37.019
And, you know, given that all the briefing stuff seems to centre around the Slothian incident.

655
00:54:37.079 --> 00:54:39.900
All the visual records of Rose.

656
00:54:40.019 --> 00:54:42.780
It's understandable that he wouldn't mention Mickey.

657
00:54:42.840 --> 00:54:49.079
So in that instance, Elton's just like, oh, okay, you know, you used to have this friend called Mickey, no relation or what have you.

658
00:54:49.139 --> 00:55:06.300
That scene where, you know, she chucks the wine on it, but whatnot. his nervousness is so well played and then his confidence as he walks back in and then he just sort of shrinks in on himself when when she's talking.

659
00:55:06.360 --> 00:55:13.260
And yet that is when he has the realisation, but it's so wonderfully done as sort of a set of creeping close-ups.

660
00:55:13.380 --> 00:55:17.880
And something I noticed about Camille in this.

661
00:55:17.940 --> 00:55:21.780
And I think it's a conscious decision because there's so many subtle design elements in this.

662
00:55:21.840 --> 00:55:26.340
Like when Elton comes back from getting the pizza, his shirt is no longer stained.

663
00:55:26.400 --> 00:55:31.320
And I think that's a deliberate thing, part of the unreliable narrator.

664
00:55:31.380 --> 00:55:36.059
You know, he's forgotten that detail telling the story because this is a really heartfelt moment.

665
00:55:36.119 --> 00:55:39.179
I don't think that's something they would have screwed up.

666
00:55:39.239 --> 00:55:57.239
But also, I noticed watching this last night, that Camille's makeup just makes her look a little bit tired in a way that Jackie hasn't looked before, except, you know, for that year when Rose wasn't coming home.

667
00:55:57.300 --> 00:56:04.980
And I think it's deliberately set up that way to emphasise sort of her loneliness and her worry and her concern.

668
00:56:05.039 --> 00:56:13.440
Yeah, we got the script because the next Christmas special was commissioned, Runaway bride had to be moved down to the Christmas special.

669
00:56:13.500 --> 00:56:16.199
So we get love and monsters instead.

670
00:56:16.260 --> 00:56:21.300
Next week, fear her will be commissioned because Stephen Fry's 1920 script falls through.

671
00:56:21.480 --> 00:56:29.159
And, you know, Russell also wanted a story where he could put in a monster designed by a viewer.

672
00:56:29.219 --> 00:56:30.000
Yeah.

673
00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:30.840
Yeah.

674
00:56:30.900 --> 00:56:35.699
And so the absorber off is designed by Will Grantham, who...

675
00:56:36.059 --> 00:56:37.679
This is so bizarre.

676
00:56:37.739 --> 00:56:39.000
And this is the world of Doctor Who.

677
00:56:39.059 --> 00:56:41.219
So on my YouTube channel a couple of weeks ago.

678
00:56:41.280 --> 00:56:47.099
I get this comment from a channel called Channel Pup, and he said, really like your stuff.

679
00:56:47.159 --> 00:56:49.980
I'm surprised you don't have more subscribers, but I think you'll get more.

680
00:56:50.039 --> 00:56:53.159
I got my start in Doctor Who and I have lots of people watching now.

681
00:56:53.219 --> 00:56:58.679
And I click through, and the 1st video on the channel is that time I created a Doctor Who monster.

682
00:56:58.739 --> 00:57:03.059
So Will Grantham. is now a young man.

683
00:57:03.119 --> 00:57:10.260
He has his own YouTube channel and he's producing some really good, really well thought out content, an opinion based off.

684
00:57:10.320 --> 00:57:14.880
And he does a great sort of 15 minute video looking back on Love and Monsters as an adult.

685
00:57:14.880 --> 00:57:22.380
And you know, setting the records straight that, yes, even though he designed the monster as being, you know, 2 stories tall.

686
00:57:22.440 --> 00:57:26.340
He wasn't disappointed that it was the size of a man because there were lots of reports.

687
00:57:26.400 --> 00:57:31.199
He did apparently come into the workshop and say, oh, oh, I thought he was going to be bigger.

688
00:57:31.260 --> 00:57:32.219
But it was just like that.

689
00:57:32.280 --> 00:57:33.960
Oh, it wasn't a disappointment.

690
00:57:34.019 --> 00:57:35.639
It wasn't like a diva moment.

691
00:57:35.699 --> 00:57:37.800
Yeah, meant to be like that.

692
00:57:37.860 --> 00:57:49.980
There's a beautiful thing in the confidential where he sees the costume on Peter K for the 1st time and his eyes just light up and he gasps and Peter K gives him an autograph photo.

693
00:57:49.980 --> 00:57:57.119
And I just think it's so wonderful that in this world of fandom where we can have very toxic elements.

694
00:57:57.179 --> 00:58:04.920
I mean, Stephen Moffat and Peter Davidson both quit Twitter because of abusive messages, basically.

695
00:58:04.980 --> 00:58:13.019
And you watch, like if you subscribe to the BBC Doctor Who YouTube channel, you're absolutely Nazi adjacent from that point.

696
00:58:13.079 --> 00:58:18.300
Like there'll be why Doctor Who hates white men will be your next suggested video.

697
00:58:18.360 --> 00:58:19.860
You know, there are toxic elements.

698
00:58:19.920 --> 00:58:20.460
Yeah.

699
00:58:20.460 --> 00:58:22.260
Doctor Who hates single fathers.

700
00:58:22.380 --> 00:58:27.360
No, there is one single father who does something stupid.

701
00:58:27.420 --> 00:58:36.480
Anyway, I was so heartened to watch Will's channel because he still has such love for the show.

702
00:58:36.539 --> 00:58:49.440
He knows that this story is divisive, but he kind of, he kind of just mainly values his own opinion on it and takes the praise for the story as well, and he's grateful to have had that.

703
00:58:49.500 --> 00:58:53.519
And he says in the video, you know, I showed my girlfriend this story and she enjoyed it.

704
00:58:53.579 --> 00:58:55.139
And I thought that was absolutely lovely.

705
00:58:55.199 --> 00:59:00.719
I watched it with a friend last night who knows Doctor Who has watched a bit of it.

706
00:59:00.780 --> 00:59:02.820
He's known me for ages.

707
00:59:02.880 --> 00:59:09.539
I've inflicted plenty of Doctor Who on him over the years, but he'd never seen this one before and he just thought it was splendid.

708
00:59:09.599 --> 00:59:11.219
You know, he thought it was really terrific.

709
00:59:11.280 --> 00:59:24.179
And part of our anxiety about Doctor Who is residual anxiety from the 80s where everyone thought we were really kind of strange for liking this stuff with the people in rubber suits.

710
00:59:24.239 --> 00:59:27.719
And so the moment the Doctor Who looks like it's being ridiculous.

711
00:59:27.780 --> 00:59:30.119
We turn on it.

712
00:59:30.179 --> 00:59:31.739
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

713
00:59:31.800 --> 00:59:33.539
If I could ask you, Max.

714
00:59:33.599 --> 00:59:40.739
So have you then always had people around your own age in your social group who were also into the show?

715
00:59:40.800 --> 00:59:41.880
Like, I think so.

716
00:59:41.940 --> 00:59:44.880
Like if I, yeah, because it's fascinating.

717
00:59:44.940 --> 00:59:45.300
Yeah.

718
00:59:45.780 --> 00:59:55.320
It's I think there was certainly a peak of popularity with the show generally from probably started to fade a bit after the 50th anniversary.

719
00:59:55.380 --> 00:59:55.920
Yeah.

720
00:59:55.920 --> 00:59:59.099
But that said, there were always people watching the show.

721
00:59:59.159 --> 01:00:06.780
There was never there was never like, I think less people watched the Peter Capaldi era, but like it wasn't as if there were just still rusted on people watching.

722
01:00:06.840 --> 01:00:14.940
Like a lot of people still watching it, but it just wasn't, there wasn't this sort of dedication and there wasn't like a massive group of people that were all watching it and talking about it all the time.

723
01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:25.320
And then since of going to, you know, uni and all that kind of stuff, there's been meeting people that are there in the degree that I'm in because also they love Doctor Who.

724
01:00:25.380 --> 01:00:39.059
So it's like, it's a strange thing just sort of never, maybe while it's still continuing, and obviously this kind of, the past year, you know, I've noticed that a lot more people watched it than had done for maybe a few years, or even probably, even maybe even longer than that.

725
01:00:39.119 --> 01:00:44.340
So that's obviously exciting as well when you know heaps of people are watching your favourite show.

726
01:00:44.400 --> 01:00:49.619
But I think I'm like, yeah, I think like you said, I think I've always had people my age that were watching the show.

727
01:00:49.679 --> 01:01:03.480
Because you sort of grow up with the show as well as people and it's sort of like, there's always that, I don't know, I think there's always that feeling that you're like, oh, you know, maybe the shows and the series that you grow up with when you're a little kid are the ones that are very special to you.

728
01:01:03.539 --> 01:01:19.500
And I think that's probably still the case, but yeah, it's tempting maybe, I think, and a lot of people that maybe aren't, like, still really big fans of the show, but look back on it really fondly from their childhood, watch episodes now and sort of go, oh, it's not, you know, it's still nowhere near, like, David Tennant.

729
01:01:19.559 --> 01:01:26.460
Everyone, everyone, I think, remembers David Tennant era. in my generation as this sort of like, you know, golden.

730
01:01:26.519 --> 01:01:29.880
But that's also just the, that when you watch the show.

731
01:01:29.940 --> 01:01:35.460
Like, I'm sure if I was like 7 or 8 when Matt Smith was the doctor, I'd feel that way about the show then, you know?

732
01:01:35.579 --> 01:01:36.300
Yeah, maybe.

733
01:01:36.360 --> 01:01:40.019
I do think it had a big sort of cultural place at this time.

734
01:01:40.079 --> 01:01:49.800
But there were all these sort of unhealed wounds from the cancellation because, you know, there's the hiatus and then the cancellation and we go for such a long time without the show.

735
01:01:49.860 --> 01:01:52.800
So every time a new episode came out.

736
01:01:52.860 --> 01:01:54.179
Was there nervous?

737
01:01:54.239 --> 01:01:55.079
Like, was there still that?

738
01:01:55.079 --> 01:01:57.480
When do you reckon that faded?

739
01:01:57.539 --> 01:02:01.679
Do you reckon it was like by maybe series 3 or 4 or did it ever fade?

740
01:02:01.739 --> 01:02:02.340
Is it still?

741
01:02:02.340 --> 01:02:05.039
I think some of us, it hasn't faded for?

742
01:02:05.099 --> 01:02:06.300
Yeah, yeah.

743
01:02:06.360 --> 01:02:14.280
Like, I think part of the reason that, particularly when Stephen Moff, actually, not particularly when Stephen Moffatt took over.

744
01:02:14.340 --> 01:02:24.539
But when we had the sort of 2009 year with the specials, that made people aware that, hold on, we may not get a season every year.

745
01:02:24.599 --> 01:02:28.500
And if we don't get a season every year, it fades from the public consciousness.

746
01:02:28.559 --> 01:02:31.800
And for phase from the public consciousness, then people will stop coming back.

747
01:02:31.860 --> 01:02:43.619
And it's this underlying feeling that then Stephen Moffatt had to deal with as executive producer, but every time it wasn't on, when it was meant to be on, oh my god, it's going to get cancelled.

748
01:02:43.679 --> 01:02:44.760
Now, why is it getting cancelled?

749
01:02:44.820 --> 01:02:46.559
Well it's getting cancelled because of all the complex plots.

750
01:02:46.679 --> 01:02:48.239
Oh, it's getting cancelled because of River song.

751
01:02:48.300 --> 01:02:52.320
And people start looking for reasons that it might get cancelled.

752
01:02:52.380 --> 01:02:55.860
And it is this anxiety that it's going to go away again.

753
01:02:55.920 --> 01:03:04.739
And so this at the end of series 2, where you get this episode, which is super divisive and initially really quite off-putting to a lot of people.

754
01:03:04.800 --> 01:03:09.179
And then you get next week's episode, which is also, I think, probably not well liked.

755
01:03:09.239 --> 01:03:15.059
People are still anxious about it, even though this is the show at its absolute height.

756
01:03:15.119 --> 01:03:24.420
I mean, series 2 and series four, I think, are like, I don't think it's just an artefact of the age that you are now, Max.

757
01:03:24.480 --> 01:03:31.260
I think that that's the time when Doctor Who had its biggest sort of cultural influence.

758
01:03:31.320 --> 01:03:33.539
Now it's something that's been on for quite a long time.

759
01:03:33.599 --> 01:03:49.139
It's a different kind of, I think, and I think the difference maybe between series 11 and something like series 2 or 3 is, like you say, because it's, because this new incarnation of the show has been around for longer than any show would probably ordinarily work for.

760
01:03:49.199 --> 01:03:51.900
There aren't many shows that start in 2005 that are still going.

761
01:03:52.019 --> 01:03:52.559
Yeah.

762
01:03:52.559 --> 01:04:18.539
So it's kind of sort of a, and it's also like, but it's that, that's not unique necessarily, but it's like, it's an artefact of just how, how just the show just keeps marching on and and not marching on implies that it's the same, you know, but it's not, but it's just like, there is a specialness to this point in the show's life in series 2 and series 3 where it has that freshness from, you know, from being away from a very long time.

763
01:04:18.599 --> 01:04:25.500
I also think too, that it's very clear from this script, which I think is one of Russell's most writerly scripts.

764
01:04:25.559 --> 01:04:33.059
I think this in midnight, him being a screenwriter, you know, I mean, he's always a screenwriter, he's right, the thing.

765
01:04:33.119 --> 01:04:35.519
But, but, you know, they're his most rightly script.

766
01:04:35.519 --> 01:04:42.420
And it just makes me think that we were incredibly lucky to have him and that we kind of don't deserve him.

767
01:04:42.480 --> 01:04:43.679
You know, it was extraordinary.

768
01:04:43.739 --> 01:04:56.579
That Doctor Who was brought back by one of the great scriptwriters on British TV, someone who's continued to write incredible drama and funny comedy and all sorts of things.

769
01:04:56.639 --> 01:04:58.440
We'd be lucky to have him now.

770
01:04:58.559 --> 01:04:59.099
Yeah, yeah.

771
01:04:59.159 --> 01:04:59.880
That'd be something.

772
01:04:59.940 --> 01:05:02.880
But he really is really incredible.

773
01:05:02.940 --> 01:05:13.019
And, you know, people, I think people think that the tone at the end of this episode is a misfire, but I don't think that at all.

774
01:05:13.079 --> 01:05:15.360
I think it's absolutely under RTD's control.

775
01:05:15.420 --> 01:05:17.099
He knows exactly what he's doing.

776
01:05:17.159 --> 01:05:18.000
Yeah.

777
01:05:18.000 --> 01:05:19.559
And I don't think it's immune.

778
01:05:19.619 --> 01:05:29.039
I think there are problems with the ending But yeah, you can't, I don't think the claim that he's sort of, it's incomprehensible or it's not, it's vastly out of tone with the rest of the episode.

779
01:05:29.099 --> 01:05:30.179
I don't think that's true at all.

780
01:05:30.239 --> 01:05:30.420
Yeah.

781
01:05:30.480 --> 01:05:32.519
One good thing about the ending.

782
01:05:33.539 --> 01:05:35.519
There's no CG.

783
01:05:35.579 --> 01:05:45.360
Well, there's compositing, but Shirley Henderson is actually in a sort of mask that joins the side of her face.

784
01:05:45.420 --> 01:05:48.840
Like she hasn't been CG'd into the slab.

785
01:05:48.900 --> 01:05:51.420
She's just been composited.

786
01:05:51.480 --> 01:05:55.920
Yeah, in fact, they digitally get rid of her sort of body below the neck in that shot.

787
01:05:56.039 --> 01:06:02.159
So he's holding the paving stone and there's no sort of Shirley Henderson sort of underneath.

788
01:06:02.219 --> 01:06:15.900
So, um, so that joke, like, I think Doctor Who has had sort of sex jokes in it before, I think that joke is not inappropriate for children because it will sail completely over their heads.

789
01:06:15.960 --> 01:06:18.659
You know, maybe the love life they have is that they snog.

790
01:06:18.719 --> 01:06:22.440
And so I absolutely don't see a problem with that.

791
01:06:22.500 --> 01:06:27.480
And Doctor Who has made kind of jokes like that for a very long time.

792
01:06:27.539 --> 01:06:30.840
Harry's only qualified to work on sailors.

793
01:06:31.199 --> 01:06:34.559
You know, it's a thing that the show has done.

794
01:06:34.800 --> 01:06:40.980
There is some discussion about, you know, whether that's a terrible fate or not.

795
01:06:41.280 --> 01:06:46.380
You know, that's a terrible thing that happens to Ursula, a really terrible thing.

796
01:06:46.440 --> 01:06:54.719
But it makes thematic sense that these people have been through this thing and they've been affected by it.

797
01:06:54.780 --> 01:07:02.219
And, you know, people get sick and people get hurt and people age and life isn't tidy.

798
01:07:02.280 --> 01:07:08.460
Like, you couldn't tell that story and have Elton and Ursula together properly at the end.

799
01:07:09.300 --> 01:07:18.059
Yeah, and I think we need to take what the text shows us and the text shows us that Ursula is in herself. okay.

800
01:07:18.119 --> 01:07:18.900
Yeah.

801
01:07:18.900 --> 01:07:26.460
You know, she is accepting of this problem that life has thrown at her. and she's happy to be alive.

802
01:07:26.519 --> 01:07:28.320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

803
01:07:28.380 --> 01:07:28.679
Yeah.

804
01:07:28.739 --> 01:07:30.480
People say, you know, she'd be better off dead.

805
01:07:30.599 --> 01:07:32.159
But again, she's not real as well.

806
01:07:32.219 --> 01:07:40.800
And that's the other thing too, which is that this is a text that is incredibly aware that it's a constructed thing.

807
01:07:40.800 --> 01:07:58.139
And if you're watching this show as, I think, we're contractually obligated to mention El Xander for at this point, if you're watching this as gossip about imaginary people, then you're going to find that really upsetting.

808
01:07:58.199 --> 01:08:10.559
But I think what it's trying to say is that we come away from terrible experiences damaged and changed and, you know, in incredible, unexpected ways.

809
01:08:10.619 --> 01:08:15.599
And our lives don't go the way that we think they will.

810
01:08:15.900 --> 01:08:26.100
You know, we don't just get married, have a mortgage, have a kid, you know, live that life is stranger than that, and it's darker.

811
01:08:26.159 --> 01:08:36.539
And, you know, all of us have or will have things in our experience that are so terrible that we never properly recover from.

812
01:08:36.600 --> 01:08:41.699
But life goes on and that's kind of okay.

813
01:08:41.760 --> 01:09:08.220
Like, Elton's, like, I initially, and I still feel a little, like, the, obviously, the, the backstory to Elton about his mum and the doctor's connection to, to him from that sort of night, I initially, like, on review, I'm rewatching it this time, I think I was, I, I think I was much more moved by it than I had been previously, because I think I felt maybe because I felt that it sort of, it felt weirdly.

814
01:09:08.460 --> 01:09:10.260
I suppose it is like a thing of suppressing it.

815
01:09:10.319 --> 01:09:17.760
And given he's the person constructing this story, you wouldn't necessarily want to labour on it particularly.

816
01:09:17.819 --> 01:09:26.699
And I suppose it becomes more relevant when the doctor enters the story, which is probably just, I think it's just a consequence of the documenting the story so late that it feels like it comes out very quickly.

817
01:09:26.760 --> 01:09:28.619
And then there's the montage.

818
01:09:28.680 --> 01:09:38.220
It's really lovely and it pairs so well with the song of her fading into the white, which I think is really that the visual and the sound of that is really lovely.

819
01:09:38.279 --> 01:09:42.840
I just think that there is still that feeling that I think it's a weirdly minimal part of the story.

820
01:09:42.899 --> 01:09:50.640
But but maybe that that is also saying something about his efforts to kind of not talk about until the last possible minute.

821
01:09:50.699 --> 01:09:54.479
I think, too, like, I agree, for a while, I thought it was just one too many things.

822
01:09:54.539 --> 01:10:08.760
But it's a more real example of the kind of thing that is addressed metaphorically by what happens to Linda at the hands of the absorber off.

823
01:10:08.819 --> 01:10:13.500
You know, it's a silly pantoscience fiction thing that eventually kills them.

824
01:10:13.560 --> 01:10:19.020
But, you know, people in their lives have experiences like that loss.

825
01:10:19.079 --> 01:10:22.140
And so there's a real one somewhere in there as well.

826
01:10:22.199 --> 01:10:23.159
Yeah.

827
01:10:23.220 --> 01:10:25.920
So I think it resonates with what's going on elsewhere.

828
01:10:26.039 --> 01:10:35.640
And over the course of the episode, it gives Mark Warren, just some amazing little moments, like when he's outside the house with Ursula.

829
01:10:35.699 --> 01:10:43.859
You know, I realised watching it last night, it's him starting to remember and he does that little sort of turn away and then he can't speak.

830
01:10:43.920 --> 01:10:50.939
And it happens again when Victor plays in the sound of the Tartar, and he has to walk away from the group and sit down.

831
01:10:50.939 --> 01:10:54.359
And there's so many emotional moments in Russell's doctor.

832
01:10:54.420 --> 01:10:59.340
But the thing that made me cry last night was when he looks up at Rose and says that was Ursula.

833
01:10:59.399 --> 01:11:00.239
Yeah.

834
01:11:00.239 --> 01:11:01.020
Oh, God.

835
01:11:01.140 --> 01:11:10.500
And but what, you know, as much as he sells it, what really sells it for me is the fact that all the anger goes out of Billy.

836
01:11:10.560 --> 01:11:13.140
Yeah, she's really good in that bit, I think.

837
01:11:13.500 --> 01:11:17.819
She's got like 2 lines in the whole episode and she just nails both of them.

838
01:11:17.819 --> 01:11:21.060
And, you know, we see proper crying.

839
01:11:21.060 --> 01:11:25.680
You know, it's not, you killed my brother, Commander Ivanov.

840
01:11:26.399 --> 01:11:29.399
It's real proper emotion.

841
01:11:29.460 --> 01:11:35.699
And with the exception of the scenes from the child's point of view.

842
01:11:35.760 --> 01:11:38.039
Mark Warren's in every scene of this episode.

843
01:11:38.100 --> 01:11:40.619
Not necessarily every shot, but every scene.

844
01:11:40.739 --> 01:11:49.020
It even ties back to things like the telly movie where the doctor recognises Elton as an adult, having met him once as a child.

845
01:11:49.079 --> 01:11:54.779
Yeah, and that last scene, it's people standing urgently in a corridor.

846
01:11:54.899 --> 01:11:56.039
It is.

847
01:11:56.100 --> 01:12:02.279
But it's 4 very good actors. reacting and riffing off each other.

848
01:12:03.300 --> 01:12:06.000
It's an impressive denouement.

849
01:12:06.060 --> 01:12:19.260
And the line of the doctor saying, I think the others have something to say about that originally wasn't in there, but Russell and Julie discussed it and they discussed, look, these people have been waiting for the doctor so long.

850
01:12:19.319 --> 01:12:25.859
It's okay if they want to save him, but also they kind of deserve a bit to hear from him.

851
01:12:26.220 --> 01:12:31.079
And so he kind of gives them the idea of how to be the companion.

852
01:12:31.199 --> 01:12:33.899
You know, a bit like he said to Mickey a few weeks ago.

853
01:12:33.960 --> 01:12:36.960
You know, any idiot can use computers through the thing.

854
01:12:37.020 --> 01:12:40.619
It's like, I'm not going to tell you what to do, but here's an idea.

855
01:12:40.680 --> 01:12:45.539
And yeah, I really like the doctor going, no, I'm not going to sacrifice all the time and space for one man.

856
01:12:45.720 --> 01:12:49.020
Sorry, but no, your plan's rubbish.

857
01:12:49.260 --> 01:12:55.979
And I like that we can have a slightly rubbish villain with a slightly rubbish plan, but he's still a threat.

858
01:12:55.979 --> 01:13:01.020
And there's a brilliant bit of editing where he jumps up from behind the desk and they cut out a few frames.

859
01:13:01.079 --> 01:13:03.840
So he moves with unnatural quickness.

860
01:13:03.899 --> 01:13:10.920
Well, and he's said, you know, I'm a big, slow moving thing, you know, take pity on me, but then he just sort of leaps over the desk.

861
01:13:11.039 --> 01:13:11.699
Yeah.

862
01:13:11.760 --> 01:13:17.340
I actually think the absorb life looks pretty good in the interior scenes.

863
01:13:17.460 --> 01:13:18.060
Yeah.

864
01:13:18.060 --> 01:13:23.220
You don't like how grotesque the running in the loincloth outside.

865
01:13:23.340 --> 01:13:25.079
I kind of, well, I don't know.

866
01:13:25.140 --> 01:13:26.640
I always found it.

867
01:13:26.760 --> 01:13:27.840
I kind of just find it funny.

868
01:13:27.899 --> 01:13:30.960
Because Russell's writing often does massive tonal shifts.

869
01:13:31.020 --> 01:13:31.380
Yeah.

870
01:13:31.380 --> 01:13:34.560
Well, actually, no, it's not just, like, Stephen Moffatt's does too.

871
01:13:34.619 --> 01:13:36.239
Russell particularly.

872
01:13:36.300 --> 01:13:52.020
And I think it's successful all the way through the episode, and it's not really, I don't think it's particularly Russell's fault, but I think maybe it's too much tonal whiplash for me to then find him running through the street like really, really funny because I think it looks really silly.

873
01:13:52.079 --> 01:13:54.539
But then again, I suppose if that's their intention.

874
01:13:54.600 --> 01:13:58.920
I'm not 100% sure how to feel about that. it has to be his intention, doesn't it?

875
01:13:58.979 --> 01:14:06.899
Because he's designing this story around a monster that he already knows what it's going to look like that he's designed.

876
01:14:06.960 --> 01:14:10.619
He knows that that scene is going to look ridiculous.

877
01:14:10.680 --> 01:14:12.300
And he leans into it, I think.

878
01:14:12.359 --> 01:14:15.539
And it's really extraordinary.

879
01:14:15.539 --> 01:14:18.779
And it's not surprising that for a lot of people it doesn't come off.

880
01:14:18.840 --> 01:14:26.279
And it's super off putting because you can't find it funny because you are still horrified by what's happened to all of those people.

881
01:14:26.340 --> 01:14:27.539
Yeah.

882
01:14:27.600 --> 01:14:32.939
See, I think it's the same level of humour as Jackie cowering and saying, I'm going to get killed by a Christmas tree.

883
01:14:33.000 --> 01:14:35.220
It's a situation that's so ridiculous.

884
01:14:35.279 --> 01:14:36.359
Yeah.

885
01:14:36.359 --> 01:14:43.739
It's kind of like you don't exactly have to play it for laughs, but you have to, in some way, acknowledge that this is silly.

886
01:14:43.800 --> 01:14:49.319
But also, you know, there is a thing about the human condition being ridiculous.

887
01:14:49.380 --> 01:14:55.859
And I said earlier in the episode about just indignity and Bliss ending up on the answer.

888
01:14:55.920 --> 01:14:56.460
Yeah, yeah.

889
01:14:56.579 --> 01:14:58.739
That's where we all end up, eventually.

890
01:15:00.840 --> 01:15:03.960
We haven't specifically singled the amount.

891
01:15:04.020 --> 01:15:06.420
But Peter K does a wonderful job, I think.

892
01:15:06.720 --> 01:15:12.899
Yeah, I actually find his performance as the absorbeloff massively, massively off-putting.

893
01:15:12.960 --> 01:15:15.539
And I think that that's absolutely deliberate.

894
01:15:15.600 --> 01:15:17.100
It's the lolling tongue.

895
01:15:17.159 --> 01:15:18.720
The lolling tongue.

896
01:15:18.779 --> 01:15:20.159
Also something I really like about it.

897
01:15:20.220 --> 01:15:27.000
I've spoken about them before, but the audio visuals plays that Nick Briggs and Gary Russell and many others made before Big Finish.

898
01:15:27.479 --> 01:15:33.060
They have a recurring villain in them, who, in the big finish place, is played by David Warner called Cuthbert.

899
01:15:33.119 --> 01:15:40.920
Cuthbert is the head of conglomerate, sort of evil corporate entity.

900
01:15:40.979 --> 01:15:48.899
And he's played by an actor called Barry Killerby with a northern accent, much like the Bolton accent.

901
01:15:48.899 --> 01:15:57.479
And one line that just sticks in my mind from those plays is when he 1st learns the doctor's interfering in something and he says to one of his servant robots.

902
01:15:57.539 --> 01:16:03.180
I don't need any problems caused by some do good nosim Park.

903
01:16:03.600 --> 01:16:07.380
But at the same time, he's really menacing.

904
01:16:07.619 --> 01:16:12.239
And it's kind of like, oh, lots of planets have a north.

905
01:16:12.300 --> 01:16:19.680
It's like, well, why can't we have this menacing alien who is also, you know, saying, oh, should test?

906
01:16:19.739 --> 01:16:20.640
Ah, check in.

907
01:16:20.699 --> 01:16:24.119
Again, that's super, super off-putting and it's part of the humiliation.

908
01:16:24.180 --> 01:16:29.760
You know, this character that we love and he makes a sort of tasteless joke with a silly accent.

909
01:16:29.819 --> 01:16:32.880
It is, I think, a deliberate choice.

910
01:16:32.939 --> 01:16:33.960
Yeah, for sure.

911
01:16:34.020 --> 01:16:38.340
And I really like his performance outside of the prosthetic as well, I actually think.

912
01:16:38.399 --> 01:16:39.420
Because there's all the...

913
01:16:39.479 --> 01:16:46.079
I think I think I was reading that apparently he spent quite a while talking with Russell T. Davis about how to pitch his performance in this episode.

914
01:16:46.079 --> 01:16:56.039
And I think you can, I think that comes across that he's given a lot of thought that he's not sort of a, um, well, he's, I suppose part of the point is that he's a little bit of a caricature as well.

915
01:16:56.100 --> 01:17:00.000
But I think he balances that with others of nuance as well going on.

916
01:17:00.060 --> 01:17:06.659
And I think he's, um, because he sort of has to be at least a little bit tender to appeal to people to stay and come back.

917
01:17:06.720 --> 01:17:07.260
Yeah.

918
01:17:07.260 --> 01:17:10.560
And I think he does that really believably and balancing those two.

919
01:17:10.619 --> 01:17:10.979
Yeah.

920
01:17:11.039 --> 01:17:13.859
He was originally offered the part of Elton.

921
01:17:13.920 --> 01:17:14.520
Right.

922
01:17:14.579 --> 01:17:15.239
Oh right.

923
01:17:15.300 --> 01:17:18.840
But what happened was he wrote to Russell during the 1st season.

924
01:17:18.899 --> 01:17:19.859
He just said, this is amazing.

925
01:17:19.920 --> 01:17:22.260
I've been a Doctor Who fan for ages.

926
01:17:22.319 --> 01:17:24.899
I'm a fan of your work and oh my god, you're brilliant.

927
01:17:24.960 --> 01:17:39.600
And Russell, of course, reacted to this because at the time, Peter Kay's vein of comedy is very similar to Catherine Tate, and he's done lots of different comedy shows, but one of the ones that was really notable at this time was Britain's got the pop factor, right?

928
01:17:39.659 --> 01:17:46.859
Which was a send-up of talent shows, but Peter Kay, playing a woman competing on these talent shows.

929
01:17:46.920 --> 01:17:50.039
And, you know, much like when Catherine Tate plays a man.

930
01:17:50.100 --> 01:17:55.079
It was a comedy character, but it was as serious as it could be kind of thing.

931
01:17:55.140 --> 01:17:57.899
So he was used to this kind of work in prosthetics and whatnot.

932
01:17:57.960 --> 01:18:08.939
What I think is so successful about his human persona as Victor Kennedy, is it kind of highlights adoration in fandom versus entitlement?

933
01:18:09.000 --> 01:18:09.479
Yeah.

934
01:18:09.479 --> 01:18:14.399
So the members of Linda, they kind of adore the doctor and they'd like to meet him.

935
01:18:14.520 --> 01:18:17.699
If it's not too much trouble, kind of thing.

936
01:18:17.760 --> 01:18:20.399
Oh, let's have some cake, you know, let's have a chat.

937
01:18:20.460 --> 01:18:22.560
Oh, Bliss, your sculptures are amazing kind of thing.

938
01:18:22.800 --> 01:18:34.619
Whereas Victor, he's an unscrupulous convention organiser, and I want to emphasise that word unscrupulous because there are loads of great convention organisers.

939
01:18:34.680 --> 01:18:47.159
There's Todd, of course, there's P Bal and Dex who do events in the UK, but there are also these unscrupulous people who they're not interested in, you know, sort of the actors putting on a show and getting to meet people.

940
01:18:47.220 --> 01:18:55.079
They're interested in how many sort of notches they can put in their belt for how many actors they've met.

941
01:18:55.140 --> 01:19:11.460
I also think it is that approach to Doctor Who, where it's knowing the names of all the cybermen stories or being able to name lots of planets or knowing who the assistant floor manager was.

942
01:19:11.579 --> 01:19:14.819
And all of those things are things that we all know.

943
01:19:14.880 --> 01:19:18.479
But an insistence on that.

944
01:19:18.600 --> 01:19:31.560
And he comes in and immediately dismisses the stuff that we've been admiring about the interaction between that group as like cakes and blubbing or something like that, you know, and he says, he doesn't want any of that.

945
01:19:31.619 --> 01:19:40.319
He gets angry at Elton for trying to be friends with Jackie because he's got a purpose. creates like an, like the classroom set up.

946
01:19:40.380 --> 01:19:42.899
Yeah, yeah, where they're raising their hand to talk.

947
01:19:42.960 --> 01:19:43.500
Yeah.

948
01:19:43.500 --> 01:19:43.979
Yeah.

949
01:19:44.039 --> 01:19:45.300
And it becomes miserable.

950
01:19:45.359 --> 01:19:53.039
All of the things that were actually good about those relationships, which, to be honest, wasn't their obsession with the doctor.

951
01:19:53.100 --> 01:20:05.159
I mean, I guess I guess the fact that the doctor for them inspires art, like it inspires them to create art and stories, stories and podcasts and stuff.

952
01:20:05.460 --> 01:20:07.920
You know, that that's a good thing.

953
01:20:07.979 --> 01:20:11.699
But what is really good is, you know, the friends we made along the way.

954
01:20:11.760 --> 01:20:19.439
It's interesting because they sort of quite explicitly become students of the doctor, which is Victor Kennedy's doing.

955
01:20:19.439 --> 01:20:37.680
And like before there's sort of, like in the classroom setup, it's a market shift from them being admirers or like, or just sort of fans of him to becoming like disciplined like studies of, you know, like, and that's the thing because Stephen Moffat calls like fans of students of the show.

956
01:20:37.739 --> 01:20:40.439
But he says it in sort of a loving way.

957
01:20:40.500 --> 01:20:50.819
But it's interesting that that sort of reads, in this episode, that comes out as an attempt to kind of, you know, make it less fun and organic than it ordinarily would be, you know, but yeah.

958
01:20:50.880 --> 01:21:00.119
The other day on Gallifrey Bass, people discussing the season 18 upcoming, probably recently released by the time this comes out, Blu-ray box set.

959
01:21:00.180 --> 01:21:08.640
The special features article for it in Doctor Who magazine, they've obviously used the template from season 19 because Warrior's Gate is listed as having 2 episodes.

960
01:21:08.699 --> 01:21:11.880
It's on Disk 5, like Black Orchid was, which has 2 episodes.

961
01:21:11.939 --> 01:21:15.659
And someone commented, they've lost 2 episodes of Warrior's Game.

962
01:21:15.720 --> 01:21:19.079
And someone else came along and said, isn't it 2 episodes long?

963
01:21:19.140 --> 01:21:28.020
And I just replied saying, oh, it's it's 4 episodes long and he said, oh, I thought all JNT seasons had a two-parter.

964
01:21:28.079 --> 01:21:31.020
That's what I've been told, and I sort of explained about the canine company thing.

965
01:21:31.079 --> 01:21:37.140
But I just thought there are other fans who would come along and berate this person for not knowing that Warrior's Gate was 4 parts.

966
01:21:37.560 --> 01:21:46.380
Because Doctor Who Fandom is this weird thing of you've got people who've been watching it since they were 7 or 5 or 10, you know.

967
01:21:46.619 --> 01:21:56.880
But you've also got people who have just switched on the Saranga conundrum one night and then gone Google searching because they're like, oh, that was that was interesting and a bit weird.

968
01:21:57.359 --> 01:21:58.800
What?

969
01:21:58.800 --> 01:22:00.720
There's more of these, you know?

970
01:22:00.779 --> 01:22:08.340
And I think fan knowledge is something very precious and you can't take it for granted that other people have the same knowledge as you.

971
01:22:08.399 --> 01:22:11.760
And I think as soon as you take that for granted, you turn into a Victor Kennedy.

972
01:22:11.819 --> 01:22:16.199
It's not about knowing the production codes because you find them interesting.

973
01:22:16.260 --> 01:22:18.300
It's about knowing the production codes.

974
01:22:18.300 --> 01:22:21.899
So you can say to someone, what do you mean you don't know what 4 X was?

975
01:22:46.199 --> 01:22:51.899
Well, dear Miss Nevia, Zorbolov is gone, and now we're left to live with the consequences forever.

976
01:22:51.960 --> 01:22:55.859
We'll be back next week to see how that goes with fear her.

977
01:22:55.920 --> 01:23:04.380
In the meantime, you can find us at flightthroughentirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and Apple Podcasts, and at FTE podcast on Twitter.

978
01:23:04.439 --> 01:23:22.920
You can also find us at our series 11 Flashcast, Jody Interterterra, which is at Jody Interterra.com, Jody Interterra on Apple Podcasts, and at Jody Interterra on Twitter, and at our James Bond commentary podcast, Bondfinger, which is at bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and Apple Podcasts, and at Bondfingercast on Twitter.

979
01:23:22.979 --> 01:23:26.340
Until next time, we'll remember you this way.

980
01:23:26.399 --> 01:23:28.920
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

981
01:23:28.979 --> 01:23:29.699
Good night.

982
01:23:29.760 --> 01:23:30.300
Good night.

983
01:23:30.359 --> 01:23:32.100
Anyone fancy a slab?

984
01:23:36.300 --> 01:23:45.420
That was flight for entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Max Gell Barton, Brendan Jones, theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, strings performance by Jane Orberg.

985
01:23:45.479 --> 01:23:51.479
This episode, Linda for Short, was recorded on the 9th of February 2019 and released on the 19th of May.

986
01:23:55.079 --> 01:24:08.220
If you enjoyed our discussion of the royal and caldron of fandom that gave rise to flights through entirety, you'll also enjoy our upcoming 12 volume series on the subject, complete with a 3 volume forward by Peter Hayning.

987
01:24:08.760 --> 01:24:12.960
I think we can probably end it with a moral, do you think?

988
01:24:13.079 --> 01:24:15.060
What is 4X?

989
01:24:15.119 --> 01:24:16.800
I don't know, it's season 15.

990
01:24:18.359 --> 01:24:20.520
It's definitely season 15.

991
01:24:20.819 --> 01:24:22.199
I was going to say Voyage of the Dam.

992
01:24:22.260 --> 01:24:23.279
No, no.

993
01:24:25.079 --> 01:24:26.699
Well, yeah.

994
01:24:26.699 --> 01:24:28.199
They're using numbers again.

995
01:24:28.260 --> 01:24:31.619
Foray is some robots.

996
01:24:31.680 --> 01:24:33.840
Foray's robot and 4Z is invasion of time.

997
01:24:33.899 --> 01:24:34.680
Okay.

998
01:24:37.739 --> 01:24:41.460
Peter knows all of them Toby Hate Oak knows all.

999
01:24:41.460 --> 01:24:42.960
Toby Hate Oak is amazing.

1000
01:24:43.020 --> 01:24:46.140
Like, um, did he direct the...

1001
01:24:46.140 --> 01:24:46.380
No.

1002
01:24:46.439 --> 01:24:48.359
No, he's the...

1003
01:24:48.359 --> 01:24:49.800
He's Monse my Doctor Who scarf.

1004
01:24:49.859 --> 01:24:50.279
Oh, yes.

1005
01:24:50.279 --> 01:24:50.520
Yeah.

1006
01:24:50.579 --> 01:24:53.939
And running through corridors, which is just wonderful.

1007
01:24:54.000 --> 01:25:00.300
I saw I saw him performing my stepson stole my sonic screwdriver.

1008
01:25:00.359 --> 01:25:00.779
Oh, yeah.

1009
01:25:00.840 --> 01:25:16.560
And he's got a bit where he has the Doctor Who program guide and he gives it to a member of the audience and says, open it to a random page and read me a random name. like from a, from a, um, from any story, actor, crew, crew is probably better.

1010
01:25:16.680 --> 01:25:25.319
And so someone like reads out this name and he says, ah, now he was a guard in the reign of terror and also came back for uncredited work in the seeds of death.

1011
01:25:25.619 --> 01:25:28.260
And he does it like 5 or 6 times.

1012
01:25:28.319 --> 01:25:30.420
Yes, I know all of these things.

1013
01:25:30.479 --> 01:25:33.359
No, that doesn't make me superior to you.

1014
01:25:33.420 --> 01:25:35.159
Quite the contrary.

1015
01:25:38.340 --> 01:25:41.579
All right, I'm going to try and do an outro.

1016
01:25:41.640 --> 01:25:42.600
Does that sound like a thing?

1017
01:25:43.380 --> 01:25:47.039
Well, the listener, the Azorbilov is gone forever.