WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 12:47:42 1 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:39.479 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight through Entirety 2 00:00:39.479 --> 00:00:43.439 the only Modern and People Focus Doctor Who podcast that thinks 3 00:00:43.439 --> 00:00:46.259 it's very important to know everyone by name. 4 00:00:46.320 --> 00:00:47.640 I'm Nathan. 5 00:00:47.700 --> 00:00:48.780 James. 6 00:00:48.899 --> 00:00:50.340 I'm Todd. 7 00:00:50.399 --> 00:00:52.979 And this is the story of how I left. 8 00:00:53.460 --> 00:00:57.899 This is the story of how I left FTE podcast to go to the toilet. 9 00:00:58.500 --> 00:01:00.780 So what's new with you, Richard? 10 00:01:00.840 --> 00:01:03.659 Well, I'm just temping for this episode. 11 00:01:03.659 --> 00:01:05.519 I'm hoping someone will give me a full-time job. 12 00:01:05.579 --> 00:01:06.659 You know, it's worth a crack. 13 00:01:08.040 --> 00:01:12.299 Well, we've arrived back on Earth for another two-part finale, only 14 00:01:12.299 --> 00:01:16.560 to find that all our dead racist relatives are back. voting for 15 00:01:16.560 --> 00:01:19.439 you, Kip, and sticking the place up with cheap cigarettes. 16 00:01:19.500 --> 00:01:23.340 It's a pungent and terrifying army of ghosts. 17 00:01:35.459 --> 00:01:37.620 Listeners, I had you all going there for a moment. 18 00:01:37.739 --> 00:01:41.280 I wasn't giving you quite enough information, and I was sort of 19 00:01:41.280 --> 00:01:43.560 misdirecting you a bit, you know, you thought I was actually going 20 00:01:43.560 --> 00:01:44.040 to leave. 21 00:01:44.099 --> 00:01:50.219 And the beginning of this episode, we've got that new who classic 22 00:01:50.219 --> 00:01:54.659 trick of giving us certain information without giving us maybe the 23 00:01:54.659 --> 00:01:58.079 correct information or all of the story and I certainly was very 24 00:01:58.079 --> 00:01:59.099 worried. 25 00:01:59.159 --> 00:02:00.060 Were you worried? 26 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:03.780 Did we think that Billy Piper's character was going to die at the 27 00:02:03.780 --> 00:02:04.140 end of this? 28 00:02:04.200 --> 00:02:07.680 We'll be suspended in the narrative because that's what naughty 29 00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:08.280 Russell does. 30 00:02:08.340 --> 00:02:09.539 He knows he's writing a soap. 31 00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:11.099 And there's no doctor who never does that. 32 00:02:11.159 --> 00:02:12.360 Sorry, Matthew Waterhouse. 33 00:02:12.419 --> 00:02:13.379 Doctor Who never does that. 34 00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:15.780 Sorry, Katerina, Doc, you never does that. 35 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:16.740 Sorry, Gene Marsh. 36 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:19.979 Never, ever, ever, ever, ever, unless we do. 37 00:02:20.039 --> 00:02:25.080 So I remember a story and it's probably recounted on Elle 38 00:02:25.080 --> 00:02:31.379 Sandifer's blog, and it's Russell talking about Bad Wolf. 39 00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:33.180 And in Bad Wolf. 40 00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:35.939 There's a scene where it looks like Rose has been shot and she 41 00:02:35.939 --> 00:02:39.300 turns into a little sort of pile of dust on the floor. 42 00:02:39.360 --> 00:02:45.539 And Russell says that the audience, the child audience would know 43 00:02:45.539 --> 00:02:48.599 that she wasn't dead. 44 00:02:48.659 --> 00:02:53.219 And I think that that's because she's too important a character 45 00:02:53.219 --> 00:02:55.319 for us to kill off. 46 00:02:55.379 --> 00:03:00.960 There's no way that we could have found that final episode next 47 00:03:00.960 --> 00:03:05.759 week's episode satisfying or even tolerable, I think, if the focus 48 00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:09.300 character for the last 2 years had ended up dying. 49 00:03:09.360 --> 00:03:12.599 Well, you'd end up with something like, I don't know, torchwood. 50 00:03:13.740 --> 00:03:17.460 Where everyone ends up dying sooner or later. 51 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:21.659 But I mean, that is geared towards adults, in theory at least, or 52 00:03:21.659 --> 00:03:27.539 sort of horny 15 years. that's right. who also pine for Joss 53 00:03:27.539 --> 00:03:28.020 Whedon. 54 00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:28.379 So, yeah. 55 00:03:28.439 --> 00:03:30.539 I mean, we've been leaning into her dying. 56 00:03:30.599 --> 00:03:34.560 We got a mention from the beast a few weeks ago who said that she 57 00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:37.740 would soon die in battle, and we know now, of course, that that 58 00:03:37.740 --> 00:03:39.120 was shot after this was. 59 00:03:39.180 --> 00:03:42.360 And so they sort of stuck it in as some foreshadowing. 60 00:03:42.419 --> 00:03:46.860 And then last week, of course, at the end of fear her, there's 61 00:03:46.860 --> 00:03:49.860 some kind of big battle coming and something terrible is going to 62 00:03:49.860 --> 00:03:50.460 happen. 63 00:03:50.520 --> 00:03:52.080 So we have been leaning into it. 64 00:03:52.139 --> 00:03:55.800 Yeah, and like she's never, ever, ever, ever going to leave you. 65 00:03:55.860 --> 00:03:57.000 Yeah, yeah. 66 00:03:57.060 --> 00:04:00.599 Well, that's a bad situation when somebody says that. 67 00:04:00.659 --> 00:04:02.819 Well, I think we knew that she was going to leave. 68 00:04:02.879 --> 00:04:05.219 It had certainly been announced that Billy Piper was leaving the 69 00:04:05.219 --> 00:04:06.060 program by then. 70 00:04:06.120 --> 00:04:08.520 So the big question is, how does she leave? 71 00:04:08.520 --> 00:04:11.939 and the other big question is, how on earth are we going to cope 72 00:04:11.939 --> 00:04:14.819 with a modern Doctor Who that doesn't have Camille Kaduri in it? 73 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:18.959 And I seem to remember that I was much, much more upset about the 74 00:04:18.959 --> 00:04:22.740 prospect of Camille leaving the show than I ever was about Billy 75 00:04:22.740 --> 00:04:23.399 Piper. 76 00:04:23.459 --> 00:04:27.779 It's so wonderful to see Camille front and centre in this episode 77 00:04:27.779 --> 00:04:30.779 really taking the role of the Doctor Who companion. 78 00:04:30.839 --> 00:04:32.699 She hasn't been in a lot of this season. 79 00:04:32.759 --> 00:04:36.600 Like, it's just been little scenes, save for 2 weeks ago when she 80 00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:39.360 was in Love and Monsters. 81 00:04:39.420 --> 00:04:42.000 Yeah, where it was a great affecting role. 82 00:04:42.060 --> 00:04:45.060 But besides that, it's been alternate Jackie and just little bits 83 00:04:45.060 --> 00:04:45.540 and pieces. 84 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:49.139 So to have her right smack bang in the middle of the plot saying 85 00:04:49.139 --> 00:04:52.199 grandad, Prentice, Hancock has come back. 86 00:04:52.379 --> 00:04:54.779 You know, it's just fantastic. 87 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:59.040 I always think that. a wide role. 88 00:04:59.100 --> 00:05:03.720 Because he's not, he's got not a lot to do, but he is wearing 89 00:05:03.720 --> 00:05:04.259 flares. 90 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:05.579 Not much has changed. 91 00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:06.779 Every time she says that. 92 00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:10.560 I always think grandad, Prentice, Hancock. and I think Doctor Who 93 00:05:10.560 --> 00:05:13.019 Classic says the rebus operation and the planet of evil. 94 00:05:13.139 --> 00:05:16.079 I really hope that's what Russell meant now. 95 00:05:16.139 --> 00:05:18.360 He's probably tractably evil. 96 00:05:18.420 --> 00:05:20.639 Wouldn't be exactly meaning that. 97 00:05:20.699 --> 00:05:24.300 Yeah, she is the, again, she's the lovely warm, sparkly heart in 98 00:05:24.300 --> 00:05:25.740 everything she's in, isn't she? 99 00:05:25.800 --> 00:05:28.379 I love her. when she's talking about being on set. 100 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:32.339 She's exactly the same as Jackie when Camille says, oh, I was 101 00:05:32.339 --> 00:05:34.860 standing right next to a cyber person and I turned and I thought 102 00:05:34.860 --> 00:05:37.800 he was, I was on his mark and he gave me such a blank look. 103 00:05:37.980 --> 00:05:38.639 It was horrifying. 104 00:05:39.300 --> 00:05:45.060 There's a beautiful moment where she really annoys the doctor by 105 00:05:45.060 --> 00:05:49.800 repeatedly kissing him and like grabbing him and calling him, you 106 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:52.740 know, big fella and giving him a big kiss and stuff, which I just 107 00:05:52.740 --> 00:05:54.480 think is absolutely terrific. 108 00:05:54.540 --> 00:05:57.060 Like she now has the upper hand. 109 00:05:57.120 --> 00:06:01.019 She gets to make the doctor feel uncomfortable and I think that's 110 00:06:01.019 --> 00:06:02.040 really kind of sweet. 111 00:06:02.100 --> 00:06:04.680 And all the way through, she does it. 112 00:06:04.740 --> 00:06:07.680 There's a wonderful moment next week where the doctor leaps in for 113 00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:10.980 some much needed exposition and she just tells him he can shut up 114 00:06:10.980 --> 00:06:11.339 now. 115 00:06:12.660 --> 00:06:16.560 But he does treat her like, you know, he puts it down so much in 116 00:06:16.560 --> 00:06:19.439 this episode, yet she still just, you know, sucks it up and 117 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:20.279 bounces back. 118 00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:25.740 When the doctor actually like explains who she is, like not the 119 00:06:25.740 --> 00:06:29.279 best I've ever had, age 57 years because she looked into the time 120 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:30.000 vortex. 121 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:34.800 Like, she says, I'm 40 and he goes, delusional. 122 00:06:35.279 --> 00:06:37.680 They make such a wonderful team. 123 00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:40.920 And it's such a lovely sort of foreshadowing to perhaps a 124 00:06:40.920 --> 00:06:42.540 companion who would be more his own age. 125 00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:43.620 Yeah, yeah. 126 00:06:43.620 --> 00:06:46.800 Who's willing to sort of, you know, have that sort of banter and 127 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:48.360 have little digs at each other. 128 00:06:48.420 --> 00:06:49.980 But she's there for him. 129 00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:54.060 When he pulls that chair up when Yvonne is going to do the ghost 130 00:06:54.060 --> 00:06:57.600 shift, she stands there right behind him, like backing him up. 131 00:06:57.660 --> 00:06:59.100 And it's beautiful. 132 00:06:59.160 --> 00:07:02.100 Their bonding is beautiful despite all that little niggling 133 00:07:02.100 --> 00:07:03.180 throughout the episode. 134 00:07:03.240 --> 00:07:04.019 She's just a delight. 135 00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:07.259 It's so great having her be the companion. 136 00:07:07.379 --> 00:07:08.279 And the one thing. 137 00:07:08.339 --> 00:07:10.740 I mean, it was just the one thing they had to do with her given 138 00:07:10.740 --> 00:07:14.339 that it was going to be her last sort of semi-regular appearance 139 00:07:14.339 --> 00:07:14.879 on the show. 140 00:07:14.939 --> 00:07:20.519 And the only thing that I kind of miss is that she never got to 141 00:07:20.519 --> 00:07:23.220 travel to an alien planet with them, which would have just been 142 00:07:23.220 --> 00:07:23.939 tremendous. 143 00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:25.920 It would have been very funny. 144 00:07:25.980 --> 00:07:29.759 I mean, I guess I get a bit disappointed when she says, we better 145 00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:32.519 not end up on Mars or wherever, you know, when she's inside the 146 00:07:32.519 --> 00:07:33.000 Tartars. 147 00:07:33.060 --> 00:07:36.660 It's sort of like, oh, Jackie, I kind of would like you to end up 148 00:07:36.660 --> 00:07:38.279 on an alien planet. 149 00:07:38.339 --> 00:07:39.600 But I'm with you. 150 00:07:39.660 --> 00:07:44.220 It's such a, at the time, knowing that Billy was leaving, knowing 151 00:07:44.220 --> 00:07:47.399 that Camille would be going as well was quite devastating. 152 00:07:47.459 --> 00:07:50.160 And I don't think there's quite been a mother like her since 153 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:53.879 they've they've had some good attempts at it, but for me, she is 154 00:07:53.879 --> 00:07:54.839 the best mum in the show. 155 00:07:54.899 --> 00:08:00.959 It's not like she's Amy's mum or Clara's mum or Bill. right? 156 00:08:01.019 --> 00:08:04.680 A case of perhaps diminishing returns there, but she's just a 157 00:08:04.680 --> 00:08:04.980 joy. 158 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:05.759 Yeah. 159 00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:09.120 I think Jackie King probably gives her a bit of a run for her 160 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:13.079 money in series four, but as Brendan would say, we're getting 161 00:08:13.079 --> 00:08:13.740 ahead of ourselves. 162 00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:25.199 So we come back to Earth, we're in the middle of something, and 163 00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:26.939 invasion has already started to happen. 164 00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:29.579 Always the best way, as Russell said, bring him in in the middle 165 00:08:29.579 --> 00:08:30.300 of the drama. 166 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:34.259 We don't appear on a white void set and unless we're doing episode 167 00:08:34.259 --> 00:08:35.519 one of the mind robber. 168 00:08:35.580 --> 00:08:37.259 Everyone disses the mind robber as well. 169 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:39.179 Yeah, no, we're not doing that kind of thing anymore. 170 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:40.919 And it's much more exciting because of that. 171 00:08:40.980 --> 00:08:44.940 It also, unfortunately, means that we don't get to see David being 172 00:08:44.940 --> 00:08:46.559 quiet as much as I would like. 173 00:08:46.620 --> 00:08:48.419 Yeah, yeah. 174 00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:50.820 I quite like it when he doesn't do anything. 175 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:52.259 That's right. 176 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:54.480 When he's on screen, but not saying anything. 177 00:08:55.379 --> 00:08:59.039 But it's a little bit like invasion of the dinosaurs. 178 00:08:59.100 --> 00:09:02.700 Something huge and worldwide has happened and our, you know, the 179 00:09:02.700 --> 00:09:07.019 doctor and rose appear and they don't know what's going on yet. 180 00:09:07.139 --> 00:09:10.259 And so Jackie is the one who gets to explain it to them. 181 00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:14.159 But it gives rise to something that sort of happened last season 182 00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:19.620 but becomes an episode 12 tradition, which is the celebrity 183 00:09:19.620 --> 00:09:20.940 cameos. 184 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:25.139 Oh, on the TV, like with the weather and then the Tricia Show and 185 00:09:25.139 --> 00:09:29.820 that ad they do, Ecto Shine, and then Barbara Windsor in 186 00:09:29.820 --> 00:09:30.480 EastEnders. 187 00:09:30.779 --> 00:09:33.299 Dirty Dens Ghost comes back. 188 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:36.899 You know, you know that's that's an in-joke in joke. 189 00:09:36.960 --> 00:09:37.500 Really? 190 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:38.340 Because... 191 00:09:38.340 --> 00:09:39.539 Does he come back? 192 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:41.159 Well, he left the year before, did he? 193 00:09:41.220 --> 00:09:42.240 Dirty 10 Watts. 194 00:09:43.080 --> 00:09:45.960 Who is Kisten in Resurrection of the Dialects? 195 00:09:46.019 --> 00:09:47.100 That his wife. 196 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:51.840 Chrissy Watts was played by Tracy Ann openly. 197 00:09:51.899 --> 00:09:52.980 Ah. 198 00:09:52.980 --> 00:09:54.240 How about that? 199 00:09:54.299 --> 00:09:57.179 You know, it's not just, oh, isn't that funny? 200 00:09:57.240 --> 00:10:00.659 Okay, let's bring back Den Watts and it was Kiston. 201 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:05.100 It's a reference to the fact that you've got his ex-wife in the 202 00:10:05.100 --> 00:10:05.340 show. 203 00:10:05.399 --> 00:10:05.759 Yeah. 204 00:10:05.820 --> 00:10:08.700 I just adore that Barbara Wins is now canon. 205 00:10:08.759 --> 00:10:11.820 I think it's amazing that she had never been in the show before. 206 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:14.820 I mean, it's if Tom Baker got talked to in the scratchment off the 207 00:10:14.820 --> 00:10:15.000 ground. 208 00:10:15.059 --> 00:10:17.820 Surely she would have been, you know, the companion in that or 209 00:10:17.820 --> 00:10:18.419 something like that. 210 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:20.399 She would have played Camille Kuduri. 211 00:10:20.460 --> 00:10:21.299 Ah, yeah. 212 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:24.539 I mean, they've had Joan Sims back in the 80s from the carry on 213 00:10:24.539 --> 00:10:26.519 movies, but I'm just really surprised that Barbara never made it 214 00:10:26.519 --> 00:10:27.299 until this point in time. 215 00:10:27.419 --> 00:10:30.960 We also have Derek Akora, which I think is a really funny little 216 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:35.279 cameo because he's the sort of famous ghost hunter and he's on TV 217 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:38.759 lamenting that no one needs him anymore because there's ghosts all 218 00:10:38.759 --> 00:10:42.059 over the place, which I think is pretty good. 219 00:10:42.120 --> 00:10:43.679 And so this will go on. 220 00:10:43.740 --> 00:10:46.559 We'll get that again next year and it'll be a thing that happens 221 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:49.019 from time to time in the future, I think. 222 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:53.519 It's another way that Russell is able to say we own all of 223 00:10:53.519 --> 00:10:54.059 television. 224 00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:54.840 Yes. 225 00:10:54.840 --> 00:10:58.500 This is a show about a television box with a box flying around 226 00:10:58.500 --> 00:10:59.279 inside the box. 227 00:10:59.340 --> 00:11:00.240 Yeah, yeah. 228 00:11:00.299 --> 00:11:03.240 That's how Billy Hartnell explains it. 229 00:11:03.299 --> 00:11:03.899 It is. 230 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:05.100 Billy Piper Hartnell. 231 00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:06.179 Billy Piper Hartle. 232 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:07.200 You've discovered television. 233 00:11:07.259 --> 00:11:08.879 With similar tombstone teeth. 234 00:11:08.940 --> 00:11:09.899 You knew she was going to die. 235 00:11:09.960 --> 00:11:13.139 She's been carrying the graveyard around in her mouth 10 years 236 00:11:13.139 --> 00:11:13.500 now. 237 00:11:13.740 --> 00:11:16.320 It's such silliness, but I love it. 238 00:11:16.379 --> 00:11:18.720 I just love all those little cameos Oh, no, we do. 239 00:11:18.779 --> 00:11:22.440 It will also, as little fan children of the of the never wear of 240 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:26.399 the previous generation, it posits us in reality. 241 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:29.639 And we used to get so excited when Doctor Who was mentioned on 242 00:11:29.639 --> 00:11:32.399 Dave Allen, or there was a little clip of anything. 243 00:11:32.460 --> 00:11:35.340 This is a little nod for the children now to know that, you know 244 00:11:35.340 --> 00:11:37.200 you're big, but this is the difference though. 245 00:11:37.259 --> 00:11:40.860 Back then, it was a discreet, quiet, little nerdy thing that was 246 00:11:40.860 --> 00:11:43.019 just lost amongst the rest of television. 247 00:11:43.080 --> 00:11:46.679 And not saying it was any less popular, but it also wasn't that 248 00:11:46.679 --> 00:11:48.659 much more special except to us. 249 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:49.559 Yeah. 250 00:11:49.559 --> 00:11:53.279 And now, of course, with media, the whole world can share being 251 00:11:53.279 --> 00:11:56.759 nerdasmic little children again, like weekend. 252 00:11:56.820 --> 00:11:57.299 We're not. 253 00:11:57.360 --> 00:11:59.159 I don't know that we're as special as we used to. 254 00:11:59.220 --> 00:12:02.159 No, but I think that's a great thing. 255 00:12:02.220 --> 00:12:04.500 I actually remember, and I've probably said this on the podcast 256 00:12:04.500 --> 00:12:09.299 before, when series one was on air, someone at work said, you look 257 00:12:09.299 --> 00:12:12.480 happy, and I said, I have to confess that it's because Doctor 258 00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:15.720 Who's back on, you know, and not only that, but it's the biggest 259 00:12:15.720 --> 00:12:16.500 thing on TV. 260 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:21.539 And I think this is the era when Doctor Who is at its most 261 00:12:21.539 --> 00:12:22.080 important. 262 00:12:22.139 --> 00:12:27.299 It's at its biggest, maybe in the mid 70s as well, but definitely 263 00:12:27.299 --> 00:12:32.039 here where it is absolutely massive and will continue to be for 264 00:12:32.039 --> 00:12:32.879 the next couple of years. 265 00:12:44.940 --> 00:12:48.960 The ghosts, did you suspect that they were the side limit? 266 00:12:49.019 --> 00:12:49.320 No. 267 00:12:49.379 --> 00:12:51.659 It's a very strange way of bringing them back, isn't it? 268 00:12:51.720 --> 00:12:53.820 Because the cyberman, James. 269 00:12:53.879 --> 00:12:59.820 Well, they deliberately spread a rumour back in 2006 that it was 270 00:12:59.820 --> 00:13:02.759 the Gelf returning to throw people off. 271 00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:06.539 And she actually says, asks if it's the gals, doesn't she? 272 00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:08.460 And he says, don't be dumb. 273 00:13:08.519 --> 00:13:10.980 We're never bringing them back. 274 00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:14.940 Saws. 275 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:16.799 I love his dialogue. 276 00:13:16.860 --> 00:13:18.779 Like the footprint doesn't look like a boot. 277 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:20.820 Yeah, it's that's a lovely line, isn't it? 278 00:13:20.940 --> 00:13:21.360 Hang on. 279 00:13:21.419 --> 00:13:22.200 Is that... 280 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:24.360 Are we lampshading something else? 281 00:13:24.419 --> 00:13:26.759 Is that actually... 282 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:29.039 Now, but isn't it Conan Doyle reference? 283 00:13:29.100 --> 00:13:32.340 Doesn't it come back, gentle listener, out there might remember? 284 00:13:32.399 --> 00:13:33.720 I know that line. 285 00:13:33.779 --> 00:13:39.000 It is a clever way of introducing. off Watson. the eider down 286 00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:39.480 muddy. 287 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:39.960 Yes. 288 00:13:40.080 --> 00:13:42.240 I do remember that one. 289 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:49.200 All other, whole other fanfic world just opened up beyond the 290 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:50.340 bridge. called Sherlock. 291 00:13:51.240 --> 00:13:55.139 It's a very strange way of bringing them back because they have 292 00:13:55.139 --> 00:13:58.320 been science fiction villains very much. 293 00:13:58.379 --> 00:14:01.320 And so bringing them back in this weird, supernatural way. 294 00:14:01.379 --> 00:14:04.019 You know, it's a way that none of us would have predicted. 295 00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:06.240 In fact, from the edge, back from memory. 296 00:14:06.299 --> 00:14:07.740 It's a very nice way of doing. 297 00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:09.720 I think it is it is tremendous. 298 00:14:09.779 --> 00:14:13.019 It could be a bit of phasic if you can't remember a couple of 299 00:14:13.019 --> 00:14:13.379 months ago. 300 00:14:13.379 --> 00:14:15.059 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 301 00:14:16.019 --> 00:14:19.379 It's always interesting how Russell sets these things up because 302 00:14:19.379 --> 00:14:22.500 back in the age of steel, Rise of the Cyberman, it was quite clear 303 00:14:22.500 --> 00:14:28.440 that the worlds had closed and thus it kind of could possibly be 304 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:31.740 the Cyberman, the fanboy in you wants that, but it's been stated 305 00:14:31.740 --> 00:14:35.580 that it's highly unlikely, you know, if worlds are colliding. 306 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:39.600 So you're sort of discounting it at the same time as wanting it to 307 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:42.360 happen, which I think is a really clever writing. 308 00:14:42.419 --> 00:14:44.519 I mean, it had to be them, didn't it? 309 00:14:44.580 --> 00:14:47.580 Last year, it was a monster that had been brought back for the 1st 310 00:14:47.580 --> 00:14:51.419 time in the two-part finale, and so this year, it's the same 311 00:14:51.419 --> 00:14:51.960 pattern. 312 00:14:52.019 --> 00:14:55.919 And I've observed before that series one brings back the Dalek 313 00:14:55.919 --> 00:14:59.340 series 2 brings back the Seidman series 3 brings back the master 314 00:14:59.340 --> 00:15:02.879 you know, corresponding to the main antagonists of the 1st 3 315 00:15:02.879 --> 00:15:03.419 doctors. 316 00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:08.100 Russell is bringing the mythology of the program to a whole new 317 00:15:08.100 --> 00:15:10.259 generation of viewers in the same order. 318 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:14.220 And series 4 brings back Davros, just like Davros is introduced 319 00:15:14.220 --> 00:15:15.240 with the 4th. 320 00:15:15.299 --> 00:15:15.899 Yeah, yeah. 321 00:15:15.960 --> 00:15:18.899 So, and the sultanans, obviously. 322 00:15:19.019 --> 00:15:20.940 The sudden and themselves. 323 00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:23.940 For me, I've never been the greatest villains of all time. 324 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:24.720 No, they're terrible. 325 00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:32.159 But it was really great listening to your Age of Steel Rise of the 326 00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:35.460 Cyberman podcast. because we're obviously still recording this as 327 00:15:35.460 --> 00:15:37.200 the season has been released. 328 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:38.759 And I've just listened to those. 329 00:15:38.820 --> 00:15:43.259 But your whole discussion about the way in which Russell has 330 00:15:43.259 --> 00:15:45.659 reinvented the cyberman and the new origins. 331 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:50.519 I found really quite interesting because I had just sort of 332 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:51.779 dismissed the whole thing. 333 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:55.080 I hated that when I watched it originally because it wasn't the 334 00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:55.620 original. 335 00:15:55.740 --> 00:15:56.879 Well, it wasn't not like you. 336 00:15:56.940 --> 00:15:58.559 Not at all. 337 00:15:58.620 --> 00:16:03.419 Because it wasn't the original cyberman who had a history with the 338 00:16:03.419 --> 00:16:08.159 doctor was just these robotic monsters that are all the same that 339 00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:10.559 are just, you know, have no history with the doctor. 340 00:16:10.620 --> 00:16:13.919 So I just kind of went, that's a whole load of rubbish. 341 00:16:13.980 --> 00:16:16.320 Thus, I'm going to dismiss those 2 episodes. 342 00:16:16.379 --> 00:16:20.220 And so having these cyberman cybers things coming back here. 343 00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:22.320 It's sort of like, well, they're not really the cybermen. 344 00:16:22.379 --> 00:16:23.519 They're just fakes. 345 00:16:23.580 --> 00:16:28.320 But I really did enjoy your discussion about why he did that and 346 00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:31.320 how he reinvented them and coming not from like, you know, some 347 00:16:31.320 --> 00:16:33.960 10th planet thing, you know, upside down earth. 348 00:16:34.019 --> 00:16:37.620 Yeah, so I actually do really appreciate that discussion. 349 00:16:37.620 --> 00:16:41.100 And certainly coming into watching these episodes and even 350 00:16:41.100 --> 00:16:44.700 reevaluating age of steel and rise of sidemen, it certainly 351 00:16:44.700 --> 00:16:46.679 improved my appreciation. 352 00:16:46.740 --> 00:16:50.399 I do think here, though, they are kind of generic robot monsters 353 00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:51.360 in a way. 354 00:16:51.419 --> 00:16:55.019 They do upgrade people and that's clearly their aim. 355 00:16:55.080 --> 00:16:58.620 And so that's something that Russell has chosen to foreground that 356 00:16:58.620 --> 00:17:02.580 very often gets forgotten in the classic series. 357 00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:06.240 With a notable exception tide of attack of the side men, which 358 00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:07.319 does upgrade people. 359 00:17:08.039 --> 00:17:10.019 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 360 00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:12.359 I think it's very much back to Kit Peddler. 361 00:17:12.420 --> 00:17:12.900 Yeah. 362 00:17:12.900 --> 00:17:15.720 In that it was all about the fear of technology. 363 00:17:15.779 --> 00:17:18.599 And the fear of modern, you know, where they were talking 364 00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:21.539 Christian Barnard was talking about at the time on anyway, he was 365 00:17:21.539 --> 00:17:21.779 good. 366 00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:25.200 We've talked about this before, actually. heart replacement 367 00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:25.680 surgery. 368 00:17:25.740 --> 00:17:30.059 Goodness, I'm getting a flashback, dear listener, 1978 when we 1st 369 00:17:30.059 --> 00:17:30.720 did this podcast. 370 00:17:30.779 --> 00:17:31.079 Yeah. 371 00:17:31.140 --> 00:17:33.539 So the same fears are there. 372 00:17:33.539 --> 00:17:36.839 And the little AirPod thing is very clear, but Russell talks about 373 00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:39.900 why do we constantly need the new thing? 374 00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:42.779 What is it about the fear of being left behind? 375 00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:46.559 And that maybe is the clinch of this episode. 376 00:17:46.619 --> 00:17:51.000 The fear of rose being left behind, or in other words, dying is 377 00:17:51.000 --> 00:17:53.640 the saying that we fear, the little FOMO fear. 378 00:17:53.700 --> 00:17:56.099 Get out the BBC FOMO machine. 379 00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:58.740 That's what this episode is all about. 380 00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:00.960 Yeah, the fear of missing out. 381 00:18:01.019 --> 00:18:05.400 The fear of not being part of whatever this collective is. 382 00:18:05.460 --> 00:18:06.900 Have we mentioned Brexit yet? 383 00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:07.559 don't think. 384 00:18:07.619 --> 00:18:08.400 No, normally we have to. 385 00:18:08.579 --> 00:18:12.480 I do think, though, there's sort of so much going on that there 386 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:16.500 isn't that much time for the sidemen to do very much apart from 387 00:18:16.500 --> 00:18:18.359 sort of stomping around the place. 388 00:18:18.420 --> 00:18:19.799 And that's why we have Graham Harper. 389 00:18:19.859 --> 00:18:21.119 Yes, we do. 390 00:18:21.180 --> 00:18:22.859 Can you imagine how doll this would be without him? 391 00:18:22.980 --> 00:18:27.660 Getting 9.7% appreciation from, not from the viewing figures. 392 00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:28.799 I think they got about James. 393 00:18:28.859 --> 00:18:30.240 You're our lexicographer here. 394 00:18:30.299 --> 00:18:31.859 The appreciation. 395 00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:32.880 Yeah, it was eight. 396 00:18:32.940 --> 00:18:33.779 That's not bad. 397 00:18:33.900 --> 00:18:38.039 I'm being seventh, I think, that was only after Corey and more 398 00:18:38.039 --> 00:18:38.579 football. 399 00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:40.259 England lost that week. 400 00:18:40.380 --> 00:18:42.359 I was hoping they'd throw a reference in, but I don't think they 401 00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:44.039 did, but there was a major thing, you know. 402 00:18:44.099 --> 00:18:47.759 But getting that sort of thing, it's just Graham Harper, it really 403 00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:49.859 would, there's not much in this. really thin. 404 00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:51.660 Yeah, I think that that's true. 405 00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:57.000 I mean, you get the ghosts introduced and then you get a guided 406 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:01.259 tour of torchwood and we kind of set up the situation for next 407 00:19:01.259 --> 00:19:01.920 week. 408 00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:03.839 Which is the apprentice. 409 00:19:03.900 --> 00:19:05.220 You know, that's the location. 410 00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:08.400 That's the same opening establishing shot that the British 411 00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:09.299 apprentice used. 412 00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:11.039 Yeah, the aerial shot. 413 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:13.019 Yeah, the Crown Tower, whatever it is. 414 00:19:13.079 --> 00:19:17.220 They had originally, I think, intended to create their own CG 415 00:19:17.220 --> 00:19:18.779 tower, but kind of ran out of money. 416 00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:21.240 It was going to be over the breach, wasn't it, James? 417 00:19:21.299 --> 00:19:24.779 It was originally written to be in the writer's tale. 418 00:19:24.839 --> 00:19:28.200 It was over the over the card. originally, originally, the episode 419 00:19:28.200 --> 00:19:29.400 was set in Cardiff. 420 00:19:29.460 --> 00:19:31.200 Oh, okay. over the time riff. 421 00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:31.920 Right. 422 00:19:31.980 --> 00:19:38.640 And when Torchwood was commissioned to series, Russell decided, oh 423 00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:42.420 I'll set it in London, make it bigger, make the whole torch would 424 00:19:42.420 --> 00:19:46.619 mythology, and then destroy that. 425 00:19:46.680 --> 00:19:51.240 And then we have this one over here, which is still relatively 426 00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:55.380 unaffected by the events of that story, apart from, say, Yanto. 427 00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:59.160 I think that we did talk in our previous episode about the way 428 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:03.299 that Russell takes London and stuffs it full of secret alien bases 429 00:20:03.299 --> 00:20:03.900 and stuff. 430 00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:08.400 And so this is another example of that where you look at Canary 431 00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:09.000 Wharf. 432 00:20:09.059 --> 00:20:12.059 You see that very building and you think about how Torch would 433 00:20:12.059 --> 00:20:14.400 actually build that in order to get to the rift. 434 00:20:14.460 --> 00:20:16.319 And I just love that. 435 00:20:16.380 --> 00:20:19.740 That's one of my favourite things about this era of Doctor Who. 436 00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:23.039 But it's so ridiculous that the cybermen came through 1st and then 437 00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:26.460 they're just in the office space next door behind some plastic 438 00:20:26.460 --> 00:20:27.059 sheets. 439 00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:32.700 And then, and then, and then like Gareth goes in, and he gets 440 00:20:32.700 --> 00:20:36.539 cyber tied and you hear nothing, then Freemas, and whatever her 441 00:20:36.539 --> 00:20:39.960 name is, goes in and she screams and sees a cyberman, and then 442 00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:41.819 Matt, I want to see something? 443 00:20:41.940 --> 00:20:45.599 Yes, Matt, you go in, but you get to scream and have all the like 444 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:47.460 it's like an angle grinder, isn't it? 445 00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:49.559 Thank you, mate. angle grinder and anything like that. 446 00:20:49.619 --> 00:20:51.059 Like, I just love the way it goes from. 447 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:52.740 No noise to like full on. 448 00:20:53.460 --> 00:20:57.839 Our office is in the Governor Philip Tower down at the quay on the 449 00:20:57.839 --> 00:20:58.380 top floor. 450 00:20:58.440 --> 00:21:01.980 And for the last, honestly, 4 or 5 months, we've had the office 451 00:21:01.980 --> 00:21:04.619 suite being built around us, there's a lot of screaming. 452 00:21:04.619 --> 00:21:10.859 And honestly, the glint in the eye from the mirror balls, those 453 00:21:10.859 --> 00:21:11.940 builders put up constantly. 454 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:14.039 It's really not that far. 455 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:15.900 It's not that far different really, isn't it? 456 00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:19.140 In fact, it's the only kind of interesting peril that sort of 457 00:21:19.140 --> 00:21:20.039 happens, isn't it? 458 00:21:20.099 --> 00:21:24.420 Because it is just very much an introduction and a guided tour. 459 00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:27.779 And so we have to have the cybermen do something. 460 00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:30.900 And so that's, I think, why they're there doing that in this 461 00:21:30.900 --> 00:21:31.200 episode. 462 00:21:31.259 --> 00:21:33.180 Yeah, it's all William Patterson. 463 00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:36.240 I see them all as being Bill Patterson's resurrected career from 464 00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:39.599 the rocketeer. because it's that same gorgeous 30s, Will Eisner 465 00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:40.500 helmet design. 466 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:44.039 But hang on, didn't the sphere come through 1st and created the 467 00:21:44.039 --> 00:21:47.160 breach through which the cybermen were able to follow? 468 00:21:47.220 --> 00:21:51.000 So was this, there's huge bronze ball in the air? 469 00:21:51.059 --> 00:21:52.079 James? 470 00:21:52.140 --> 00:21:56.460 The sphere came through after the tower was built. 471 00:21:56.519 --> 00:22:01.019 So they noticed the breach and then built a tower and then the 472 00:22:01.019 --> 00:22:01.559 sphere came through. 473 00:22:01.619 --> 00:22:03.299 I like the sphere a lot. 474 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:05.160 I think it's very cool. 475 00:22:05.220 --> 00:22:07.440 And it's a sort of great idea. 476 00:22:07.500 --> 00:22:11.519 And it's one of those things too, that Russell manages to explain 477 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:16.259 in just sort of very normal terms, you know, there is a talk about 478 00:22:16.259 --> 00:22:19.980 no sort of electromagnetic radiation and no mass and no kind of 479 00:22:19.980 --> 00:22:22.500 anything, no readings from it, as if it isn't there. 480 00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:27.119 And just that detail where it said, that's why it makes you feel 481 00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:30.299 uncomfortable because it doesn't seem to be there. 482 00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:34.559 And he manages to achieve that and make it uncanny without leaning 483 00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:37.980 very heavily into sort of science fiction gobbledygook. 484 00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:41.460 Yes, it's a mystery. another mystery on top of things, and you 485 00:22:41.460 --> 00:22:43.740 have to wonder, how does that work with the cyberman? 486 00:22:43.799 --> 00:22:47.099 And part of the fanboy in me, when you look at your kind of thing 487 00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:49.559 Oh, could it be something to do with the Daleks being like a 488 00:22:49.559 --> 00:22:51.119 sphere, but you could sort of discount that? 489 00:22:51.180 --> 00:22:52.319 I can't remember. 490 00:22:52.380 --> 00:22:53.279 That's good that you guessed. 491 00:22:53.339 --> 00:22:54.240 I'd hadn't guessed at the time. 492 00:22:54.299 --> 00:22:56.279 It's a little... 493 00:22:56.339 --> 00:22:57.839 Paul, he said it. 494 00:22:57.900 --> 00:23:02.039 It's a nod to the hard SF of the 60s. 495 00:23:02.099 --> 00:23:04.799 So Fred and Jeffrey Hoyle and Standard Style Lamb, and, you know 496 00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:07.259 who would posit things like this, that, you know, especially in 497 00:23:07.259 --> 00:23:09.660 Standard Style Limbs writing, where you've got things that 498 00:23:09.660 --> 00:23:14.039 shouldn't exist, and it's about the disquiet of being in around 499 00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:15.059 unrealities. 500 00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:17.220 It's really nicely done. 501 00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:19.440 Because again, it ties in with the whole new tech thing. 502 00:23:19.500 --> 00:23:22.319 We're very comfortable with things that slightly frighten us. 503 00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:26.220 Or then maybe there's that sense of the brave new world of having 504 00:23:26.220 --> 00:23:30.240 to overcome our fears by believing that we're in control of it, but 505 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:33.299 underneath there's the substantive fear that we don't actually 506 00:23:33.299 --> 00:23:37.980 know as, as, um, David said it at the time, it gets into our 507 00:23:37.980 --> 00:23:40.079 little plastic things and we don't know how it gets there. 508 00:23:40.140 --> 00:23:48.059 I assume he's talking about his phone. but I love the fact that 509 00:23:48.059 --> 00:23:52.920 that entire plot allows Rose to do a very classic Doctor Who thing 510 00:23:52.920 --> 00:23:55.740 of the companion investigating separately and she gets to put on 511 00:23:55.740 --> 00:23:58.140 the white lab coat and then follow somebody down somewhere else 512 00:23:58.140 --> 00:24:01.200 and she's got her own little story to solve. 513 00:24:01.259 --> 00:24:04.980 She's pert we for most of this episode, isn't she? 514 00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:06.119 He puts on a white cone. 515 00:24:06.180 --> 00:24:09.480 I mean, both parts of the episode separate the doctor and Rose for 516 00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:11.039 pretty much all of it. 517 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:15.420 They're not together very much, except in the sort of last few 518 00:24:15.420 --> 00:24:17.700 scenes of the final episode. 519 00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:23.339 But what we do get, and what was an absolute surprise, is the 520 00:24:23.339 --> 00:24:25.259 reappearance of Mickey. 521 00:24:25.319 --> 00:24:27.000 Does she follow him down there? 522 00:24:27.059 --> 00:24:28.380 Is he the scientist you're following or not? 523 00:24:28.500 --> 00:24:30.059 At the last minute? 524 00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:34.680 Sure, but he is definitely visible in shot before he turns 525 00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:34.920 around. 526 00:24:34.980 --> 00:24:36.240 With his back to her. 527 00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:37.319 Yeah, yeah. 528 00:24:37.380 --> 00:24:40.859 And he's had a haircut or whatever and we don't recognise him. 529 00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:43.259 He's wearing that great hoodie anyway. 530 00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:44.700 Did you know it was him? 531 00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:45.660 Had you spotted him before? 532 00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:48.359 I haven't in the in the day. 533 00:24:48.420 --> 00:24:49.740 I didn't even do it again this time. 534 00:24:49.859 --> 00:24:51.359 Oh, that's right. 535 00:24:51.420 --> 00:24:52.019 It appears in it. 536 00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:53.460 It's been so long since I watched. 537 00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:57.299 No, I kind of remember my gaze sort of went to the person in the 538 00:24:57.299 --> 00:24:57.720 background. 539 00:24:57.779 --> 00:24:59.819 Why is that person sort of horring in the background, but I didn't 540 00:24:59.819 --> 00:25:01.019 really... 541 00:25:01.079 --> 00:25:03.599 And then when he turns around, it's like, oh, my goodness, you 542 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:03.839 know? 543 00:25:04.140 --> 00:25:04.680 How fantastic. 544 00:25:04.740 --> 00:25:11.819 And I do think too, that it is a good idea to have Rose and Mickey 545 00:25:11.819 --> 00:25:12.119 together. 546 00:25:12.180 --> 00:25:16.079 We'll talk more about this next week, but the last time Mickey 547 00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:16.500 appeared. 548 00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:18.779 We thought that Rose had been rather mean to him. 549 00:25:18.839 --> 00:25:22.920 And so getting them together to kind of patch things up a little 550 00:25:22.920 --> 00:25:25.140 bit, I think, was kind of a good idea. 551 00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:28.380 And it is just amazing to see him back. 552 00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:32.640 What I like is the fact that Mickey is seen to be completely 553 00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:36.720 competent and has managed to infiltrate this organisation, whereas 554 00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:40.500 Rose can only infiltrate for 5 seconds before she's caught. 555 00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:42.599 And that massive gun. 556 00:25:42.660 --> 00:25:44.160 Where was he hiding that? 557 00:25:44.220 --> 00:25:46.319 You really don't want to know. 558 00:25:46.619 --> 00:25:49.440 It's not a compact laser to last. 559 00:25:49.740 --> 00:25:54.180 He's actually a little bit dismissive of her too. 560 00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:55.980 He's in no way excited to see her. 561 00:25:56.099 --> 00:25:58.259 He calls her babe in this sort of dismissive way. 562 00:25:58.319 --> 00:26:00.599 And it's kind of like the tables have turned. 563 00:26:00.660 --> 00:26:04.500 He's sort of over her, or at least wants to look like he is, but 564 00:26:04.500 --> 00:26:08.880 he doesn't sort of fall into that subservient tin dog role 565 00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:09.779 immediately. 566 00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:14.039 He's got a job to do and he's clearly, you know, since we left him 567 00:26:14.039 --> 00:26:17.579 behind in sort of episode 5 or whenever it was, episode 6. 568 00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:18.900 With the other blonde. 569 00:26:18.900 --> 00:26:21.119 With the other blonde, more of whom laser. 570 00:26:21.180 --> 00:26:23.039 But only last week in recording, too. 571 00:26:23.460 --> 00:26:26.160 But I think that's so fantastic, I think. 572 00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:29.819 His role in this episode, Rose's role in this episode. 573 00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:31.859 Jackie's role in this episode are all wonderful. 574 00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:35.880 And the other person who I absolutely adore is Tracy Ann Cyberman 575 00:26:35.880 --> 00:26:37.200 Yvonne Hartman. 576 00:26:37.259 --> 00:26:39.539 I mean, I think she's every Doctor Who Gay Boy's delight. 577 00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:43.380 I mean, she sashays handclaps and hair flicks away through this. 578 00:26:43.380 --> 00:26:44.039 Fabulous hair. 579 00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:44.579 You know? 580 00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:45.059 Really? 581 00:26:45.059 --> 00:26:46.740 Are we going to talk about the hair? 582 00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:50.579 My favourite moment is when is the confidential when David says to 583 00:26:50.579 --> 00:26:52.740 her she's been 15 hours in makeup? 584 00:26:53.700 --> 00:26:59.460 And, and, oh, one of the wake-up lady said 16, David, we didn't 585 00:26:59.460 --> 00:27:00.420 get a home over the weekend. 586 00:27:00.420 --> 00:27:02.940 And she still can't get a bloody hair. 587 00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:04.380 Oh, sorry, it's the driest thing. 588 00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:09.900 Billy's been out on a planet of the flying stingray vortisors and 589 00:27:09.900 --> 00:27:13.680 she still manages bounce and plasticity. 590 00:27:13.740 --> 00:27:17.099 And honestly, open, it's just a thicket. 591 00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:20.519 It's a single Lego. clipped onto a head. 592 00:27:20.579 --> 00:27:23.279 No, it's just really dry and rough. 593 00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:26.039 No, no, she obviously's just her own hair because she's 15 hours 594 00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:26.519 in makeup. 595 00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:30.720 She is incredible and I think we should talk about torchwood as 596 00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:30.960 well. 597 00:27:31.019 --> 00:27:36.299 So Torchwood has been occasionally name checked. 598 00:27:36.420 --> 00:27:38.460 Even since Bad Wolf. 599 00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:39.000 Yeah. 600 00:27:39.059 --> 00:27:40.019 You have a list? 601 00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:42.420 No, actually, I don't have I don't have a list. 602 00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:43.440 Sorry to disappoint you, listeners. 603 00:27:43.500 --> 00:27:47.099 So it has been, you know, name check from time to time, but not in 604 00:27:47.099 --> 00:27:47.940 a sort of massive way. 605 00:27:48.059 --> 00:27:51.059 It doesn't get... almost every story, but it's just subtly done. 606 00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:51.720 Yeah. 607 00:27:51.720 --> 00:27:55.500 It's even at the party in Rise of the Sidemen when Pete says how's 608 00:27:55.500 --> 00:27:57.240 Torchwood going, mate, something. 609 00:27:57.359 --> 00:27:58.140 Yeah, that's right. 610 00:27:58.259 --> 00:28:03.720 And there's a wonderful reference to Torchwood in Love and 611 00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:04.259 Monsters. 612 00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:07.259 I can't remember whether in that episode we mentioned that it has 613 00:28:07.259 --> 00:28:12.000 Bad Wolf Torchwood and Mr. Saxon all in the one episode. 614 00:28:12.059 --> 00:28:14.279 It's our 1st Mr Saxon reference as well. 615 00:28:14.339 --> 00:28:17.640 So Torch would sort of set up as an antagonist for the doctor, but 616 00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:19.380 it hasn't really been serving that purpose. 617 00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:23.940 But it's a very strange antagonist for the doctor, I think. 618 00:28:24.420 --> 00:28:26.400 Well, I quite like it. 619 00:28:26.460 --> 00:28:30.000 Like, I like the fact that they're trying to find the doctor, like 620 00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:31.319 using CCTV. 621 00:28:31.380 --> 00:28:35.099 The 1st time we have the ghost shift, the music that accompanies 622 00:28:35.099 --> 00:28:37.619 it is literally the torch would theme. 623 00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:38.460 Oh, yeah, it is too. 624 00:28:38.519 --> 00:28:43.440 And then, you know, they get taken and then we're walking around 625 00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:44.039 the base. 626 00:28:44.220 --> 00:28:48.900 I mean, I think it's a bit stupid having like the Egyptian mummy 627 00:28:48.900 --> 00:28:49.500 thing. 628 00:28:49.619 --> 00:28:50.819 I loved that. 629 00:28:50.819 --> 00:28:55.019 You could see that one of Sutek's little animated corpses is 630 00:28:55.019 --> 00:28:56.339 standing right next to the police box. 631 00:28:56.400 --> 00:28:58.500 A sarcophagus next to it. 632 00:28:59.099 --> 00:29:01.140 I mean, I liked it at the time. 633 00:29:01.140 --> 00:29:04.920 And I thought, well, didn't they burn the entire house down? 634 00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:07.380 So it wouldn't have been all charcoal? 635 00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:10.079 Maybe those things are not proof to, you know, maybe they're 636 00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:10.859 asbestos line? 637 00:29:10.920 --> 00:29:12.660 Yeah, it was a space sarcophagus. 638 00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:16.019 Okay, time vortex protected it. 639 00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:17.579 Okay, I stand corrected. 640 00:29:18.539 --> 00:29:22.680 I like the cat with a moustache and a big begging bowl and 641 00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:23.460 thinking what that's from. 642 00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:27.720 And what about the big giant CG thing? 643 00:29:27.779 --> 00:29:30.839 There's a giant CG spaceship. 644 00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:32.160 Enormous Webber barbeque. 645 00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:36.240 Is that a reference to the killer cats of Jiddensen? 646 00:29:36.299 --> 00:29:38.039 Oh, that's not real. 647 00:29:38.099 --> 00:29:42.180 But I do like to get the whole tour of Torchwood, and it's like, oh 648 00:29:42.180 --> 00:29:44.339 happy day, and I'm a people person, like all of that stuff. 649 00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:47.279 Oh, yes, and I love when she says that because she's a monster and 650 00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:48.720 that's how you know she's a monster. 651 00:29:48.839 --> 00:29:50.819 Yeah, because of her fluent management. 652 00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:52.920 It's neoliberal proto-fashion. 653 00:29:52.920 --> 00:29:54.240 Jab a walkie man. 654 00:29:54.299 --> 00:29:57.480 Yeah, she's great in the torchwood audios. 655 00:29:57.539 --> 00:29:58.559 Oh really? 656 00:29:58.619 --> 00:29:59.400 finish is done. 657 00:29:59.460 --> 00:30:04.200 They've done a number of them set before the fall of torture. 658 00:30:10.500 --> 00:30:14.640 We did talk a little bit about fascism in the last cyberman to 659 00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:19.740 Pada, and so I think it's interesting that what we have here in 660 00:30:19.740 --> 00:30:22.740 Torchwood is explicitly imperialist. 661 00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:25.920 And there's one point where Jackie says, we don't have a British 662 00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:30.480 Empire, and her response, Tracy Ann Seidman, responds, not yet. 663 00:30:30.539 --> 00:30:36.960 And we observed in our tooth and claw episode that Torchwood still 664 00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:40.740 uses imperial tons, and she has to make that quite clear. 665 00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:44.039 We don't go metric in torchwood, like those terrible Europeans. 666 00:30:44.099 --> 00:30:47.160 And it just seems very strange. 667 00:30:47.220 --> 00:30:48.539 Let's talk Brexit, Richard. 668 00:30:48.599 --> 00:30:49.440 It does. 669 00:30:50.039 --> 00:30:53.819 It's exactly, the one knot I thought here was another commendators 670 00:30:53.819 --> 00:30:54.359 have said this. 671 00:30:54.420 --> 00:30:57.660 It's really precinent of Russell to get this. and others have, you 672 00:30:57.660 --> 00:31:00.240 know, the guardian and the independent, what's left of the 673 00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:00.720 independent. 674 00:31:00.779 --> 00:31:03.240 How will Britain manage without our own energy source? 675 00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:06.539 I think we actually need to go up and find some seaweed. 676 00:31:06.660 --> 00:31:10.200 And then, you know, if only Debbie Watling was still with us and 677 00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:14.039 could hurl a lungful at the North Sea and see what we get back. 678 00:31:14.099 --> 00:31:17.279 Well, I mean, if the doctor hadn't spent so much time in the 70s 679 00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:19.920 shutting down alternative energy projects. 680 00:31:20.819 --> 00:31:22.319 Thank you. 681 00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:28.019 A whole lot of eye patches distribute it to every fascist crypto 682 00:31:28.019 --> 00:31:31.019 dictator that might want to take over a power station. 683 00:31:31.079 --> 00:31:31.740 Then we might get that. 684 00:31:31.799 --> 00:31:34.859 But yeah, it's very, it's a very interesting nod to, well, Britain 685 00:31:34.859 --> 00:31:37.259 if you want your empire back, you'll need a power source. 686 00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:37.619 Yeah. 687 00:31:37.619 --> 00:31:40.559 Holland had its, all the Netherlands had their, the nether regions 688 00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:43.859 as Storm French has, has their, their own energy source for many 689 00:31:43.859 --> 00:31:46.440 years, just why they were able to, you know, pull an empire. 690 00:31:46.500 --> 00:31:48.059 Well, keep a welfare state going. 691 00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:51.119 The Scandwegians will do clever things. 692 00:31:51.180 --> 00:31:54.420 But we have, yeah, we're being still part of the British Empire. 693 00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:57.119 I think it's just us and August Bank holiday Island now, isn't 694 00:31:57.119 --> 00:31:57.299 it? 695 00:31:57.359 --> 00:32:01.200 Maybe he's just tapping into the late motif at the time. 696 00:32:01.259 --> 00:32:04.500 He's very good at knowing how people are feeling. 697 00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:07.079 That's why his productions, all his TV shows. 698 00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:08.220 He's got a new one coming up. 699 00:32:08.279 --> 00:32:08.819 Yeah, yeah. 700 00:32:08.819 --> 00:32:10.440 With that bloke with the ears. 701 00:32:10.500 --> 00:32:13.980 He can't stop sketching, clean to that up. 702 00:32:14.460 --> 00:32:17.880 I mean, there's always been U-Kip and things in Britain. 703 00:32:17.940 --> 00:32:18.599 There has always been. 704 00:32:18.839 --> 00:32:21.539 We always had Mosley and we always had, you know, the Mitford 705 00:32:21.539 --> 00:32:21.960 sisters. 706 00:32:22.019 --> 00:32:23.339 Yeah, exactly. 707 00:32:23.400 --> 00:32:27.240 So there has always been that sort of under current of sort of 708 00:32:27.240 --> 00:32:28.259 British fascism. 709 00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:31.680 And so here that's the doctor's enemy. 710 00:32:31.740 --> 00:32:36.420 You know, we've talked about years ago about how Bob Holmes makes 711 00:32:36.420 --> 00:32:43.980 bureaucrats and humourless, rule bound, hide bound people are the 712 00:32:43.980 --> 00:32:49.380 doctor's enemy, but Russell has made the doctor's enemy, that kind 713 00:32:49.380 --> 00:32:51.839 of, you know, strain of British imperialism. 714 00:32:51.900 --> 00:32:56.460 It's a lovely nod back to Mac Hulk and Bob Holmes, isn't it? 715 00:32:56.519 --> 00:32:59.099 Which we've kind of lost over the years. 716 00:32:59.160 --> 00:33:03.359 Well, I think Russell's Doctor Who is, you know, explicitly 717 00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:09.299 political in a way that Moffat's is not so much and in a way that 718 00:33:09.299 --> 00:33:12.599 Chibnol in his 1st year, he seems to have really very, definitely 719 00:33:12.599 --> 00:33:13.859 trying to avoid. 720 00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:16.859 But it is very strange. 721 00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:21.599 And I do love the contrast between Tracy Ann's incredibly genial 722 00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:26.220 manner and her response to the doctor's question, so am I your 723 00:33:26.220 --> 00:33:26.940 prisoner then? 724 00:33:27.059 --> 00:33:29.640 And she just says, well, yes, you are. 725 00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:34.019 So it's a great sort of Doctor Who villain in the sense that it's 726 00:33:34.019 --> 00:33:36.539 not a slavering moustache twirling villain. 727 00:33:36.599 --> 00:33:38.339 She's a super genial management type. 728 00:33:38.460 --> 00:33:42.599 Look, if this had been set back in the 1970s, she would have been 729 00:33:42.599 --> 00:33:46.440 a he and she would have been like Mr. Chin or something like that 730 00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:48.480 you know, um... 731 00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:51.119 Although unless we've got Susan Gemma sitting in her leather 732 00:33:51.119 --> 00:33:53.940 knickers out, you know, the BBC board, you know, Barry Letts have 733 00:33:53.940 --> 00:33:54.599 been allowed to do that. 734 00:33:54.599 --> 00:33:57.420 But this also predicates season 11. 735 00:33:57.660 --> 00:33:59.579 I believe that's what we've just been through, haven't we? 736 00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:00.660 I shouldn't say that. 737 00:34:00.660 --> 00:34:02.640 Series 11, we've just enjoyed. 738 00:34:02.700 --> 00:34:06.420 Chibnall's response, you might want to say, is Graham Williams 739 00:34:06.420 --> 00:34:06.960 response. 740 00:34:07.019 --> 00:34:09.960 I'll just say quickly, is that we respond by small acts of 741 00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:14.460 kindness, with the overweening and overbearing threat that it 742 00:34:14.460 --> 00:34:17.639 cannot be controlled, which is, you want, if you want to call it 743 00:34:17.639 --> 00:34:23.039 free wheeling, late stage capitalism or neoliberals, gone mad or 744 00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:24.719 whatever it is you want to call it. 745 00:34:24.780 --> 00:34:27.900 But it actually is nicely indicated in this story, is that, you 746 00:34:27.900 --> 00:34:32.639 know, as living in this stage of capitalism that you have to buy 747 00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:36.179 the new things, and if you don't keep up, you're left behind, and 748 00:34:36.179 --> 00:34:37.500 you're less of a citizen. 749 00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:39.900 Because we're not citizens anymore, are we? 750 00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:40.559 We're customers. 751 00:34:40.679 --> 00:34:43.440 And boarding any state rail. 752 00:34:43.500 --> 00:34:45.539 You'll know that straight off. 753 00:34:45.719 --> 00:34:52.739 It's really amazing how foreshadowing this is. 13 stop. 754 00:34:52.860 --> 00:34:53.099 Stop it. 755 00:34:53.159 --> 00:34:53.880 How many years later? 756 00:34:53.940 --> 00:34:55.139 I don't know how many years. 757 00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:58.800 This is like sitting, watching Sarah Jane leave to the point where 758 00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:02.760 an unearthly child started for us watching this now. 759 00:35:02.820 --> 00:35:06.599 Oh, Lordy, as to when it was on our television sets in 2006. 760 00:35:06.780 --> 00:35:08.400 That's horrendous dot. 761 00:35:08.460 --> 00:35:11.639 The 1st and 8th of July 2006. 762 00:35:11.880 --> 00:35:13.800 So nearly 13 years ago. 763 00:35:13.860 --> 00:35:14.579 Gosh. 764 00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:19.920 But to have these things discussed in an episode 13 years ago 765 00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:22.440 which is so relevant now, is amazing. 766 00:35:22.500 --> 00:35:27.119 It harks back to things like the Green Death in the Pertury era 767 00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:30.119 where those things weren't really to the forefront at that time. 768 00:35:30.179 --> 00:35:32.340 Well, they were strongly discussed at the time. 769 00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:35.579 We just all got over it quickly when Neoliberalism took on. 770 00:35:35.699 --> 00:35:36.119 Yeah. 771 00:35:40.679 --> 00:35:46.079 Dave Tennant in this episode wears some 3D glasses throughout. 772 00:35:46.139 --> 00:35:49.619 And when I 1st watched this, I could have just gone up to him and 773 00:35:49.619 --> 00:35:52.380 ripped those things off his face and just thrown them in the bin 774 00:35:52.380 --> 00:35:53.699 and go, what are you doing? 775 00:35:53.820 --> 00:35:55.380 It is super slappable, isn't it? 776 00:35:55.440 --> 00:35:58.679 No, that what little children can be a part of the show because 777 00:35:58.679 --> 00:35:59.760 everyone's got a pair. 778 00:35:59.820 --> 00:36:01.320 But this time through. 779 00:36:01.380 --> 00:36:04.860 I actually was quite amused by the whole thing and he keeps coming 780 00:36:04.860 --> 00:36:06.539 back to it and keeps having them. 781 00:36:06.599 --> 00:36:07.380 I actually quite liked it. 782 00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:14.159 It's the same reason why Moffatt puts Capoldi and the Ray-Bans. you 783 00:36:14.159 --> 00:36:19.739 can make something normal or every day or gettable by the 784 00:36:19.739 --> 00:36:20.099 audience. 785 00:36:20.159 --> 00:36:21.719 And it's actually a consumer. 786 00:36:21.780 --> 00:36:23.519 He's the point of difference. 787 00:36:23.579 --> 00:36:24.059 Thank you. 788 00:36:24.119 --> 00:36:25.619 He's the point of difference in the plot. 789 00:36:25.679 --> 00:36:27.179 Everyone else has got high tech. 790 00:36:27.239 --> 00:36:30.420 The doctor gets something out of a comic book and still manages to 791 00:36:30.420 --> 00:36:31.260 defeat the threat. 792 00:36:31.320 --> 00:36:36.059 It also kind of works with his sort of slightly 50-ish hipster 793 00:36:36.059 --> 00:36:36.900 kind of look. 794 00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:42.119 You know, those 3D glasses, the green and red ones. 795 00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:43.860 Big deal in the 50s. 796 00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:45.300 Yeah, for 3D movies. 797 00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:47.340 And so it fits his look. 798 00:36:47.400 --> 00:36:49.320 I think really well. 799 00:36:49.380 --> 00:36:53.820 I think Tennant has, I'm going to do a my favourite tenant moment 800 00:36:53.820 --> 00:36:56.760 and my least favourite tenant moment of the episode. 801 00:36:57.360 --> 00:37:04.860 My favourite tenant moment is where he makes Yvonne call off the 802 00:37:04.860 --> 00:37:09.179 ghost shift by just sitting in a chair staring at her and kind of 803 00:37:09.179 --> 00:37:13.079 half smiling and just his confidence. 804 00:37:13.139 --> 00:37:15.059 Like, that is a great doctor moment. 805 00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:16.199 Wonderful, wonderful. 806 00:37:16.260 --> 00:37:17.039 Had they written down, yes. 807 00:37:17.099 --> 00:37:18.360 Yeah, least favourite moment. 808 00:37:18.420 --> 00:37:21.179 It's who you're going to call Ghostbusters. 809 00:37:21.239 --> 00:37:24.059 I just think that is bum clenchingly embarrassing. 810 00:37:24.119 --> 00:37:28.260 It's really... 811 00:37:28.260 --> 00:37:30.059 I'm just sort of, yes, okay. 812 00:37:30.119 --> 00:37:31.380 It's very self-conscious, yes. 813 00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:32.880 It's so bad. 814 00:37:32.940 --> 00:37:34.199 It's really bad. 815 00:37:34.260 --> 00:37:35.940 But again, little fans would love that. 816 00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:39.239 But I mean, is Ghostbusters a living reference in 20 years? 817 00:37:39.300 --> 00:37:40.679 No, it's 1980, what? 818 00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:44.639 I guess the thing is here, when I was looking at David's 819 00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:45.239 performance in this. 820 00:37:45.300 --> 00:37:47.039 I knew that this had been recorded earlier in the season. 821 00:37:47.099 --> 00:37:49.739 So I was quite interested to see whether or not there's still 822 00:37:49.739 --> 00:37:53.159 traits of him finding his way in the role and not being perhaps 823 00:37:53.159 --> 00:37:56.519 the stereotype that we think that he is. 824 00:37:56.579 --> 00:38:00.360 And I think there are moments in this episode where he actually is 825 00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:04.860 more subtle than what comes ahead and there's times where I think 826 00:38:04.860 --> 00:38:08.099 oh, it's not quite the David Tennant that I remember. 827 00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:12.059 And it's interesting coming at this point when you view it in the 828 00:38:12.059 --> 00:38:13.619 season having been through the last few episodes. 829 00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:18.780 Again, for the most part, his performance in this is surprisingly 830 00:38:18.780 --> 00:38:19.380 enjoyable. 831 00:38:19.440 --> 00:38:23.460 I know that we've talked a bit about how annoying we think he is. 832 00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:26.159 But then when you come back to actually watch him, I actually find 833 00:38:26.159 --> 00:38:28.019 him quite hypnotic. 834 00:38:28.079 --> 00:38:32.280 It's a bit like perch we in that, you know, a lot of fans of a 835 00:38:32.280 --> 00:38:33.480 certain age will be quite critical. 836 00:38:33.539 --> 00:38:36.119 But then you actually go back and watch him, you actually sit 837 00:38:36.119 --> 00:38:37.260 there enjoying the performance. 838 00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:39.960 And I really enjoyed this episode. 839 00:38:40.019 --> 00:38:43.920 I mean, I don't know where we're at with it, but I came out of 840 00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:47.760 this liking it more than I had previously liked it. 841 00:38:47.820 --> 00:38:51.900 And that's been the case for most of this season is that virtually 842 00:38:51.900 --> 00:38:54.539 every episode that I've watched, I've either liked the same or 843 00:38:54.539 --> 00:38:54.960 more. 844 00:38:55.019 --> 00:38:59.760 And I'm at 9 out of 10 for this episode, which I'm... 845 00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:01.199 Which is reeling. 846 00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:04.559 I'm sure that you're running a shop because you're saying like, so 847 00:39:04.559 --> 00:39:06.840 the plot is so thin on the ground, but I just... 848 00:39:06.840 --> 00:39:08.760 It doesn't matter because you've got direction and performance. 849 00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:13.380 And I just enjoyed just watching it. really enjoyed the lines, the 850 00:39:13.380 --> 00:39:14.099 performances. 851 00:39:14.159 --> 00:39:16.980 Isn't it a lovely to talk about presaging. 852 00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:21.659 It's a lovely thing to say, you don't need to over egg the plot 853 00:39:21.659 --> 00:39:21.960 Stephen. 854 00:39:22.019 --> 00:39:26.699 You can just do a very simple, elegant story and let the director 855 00:39:26.699 --> 00:39:29.760 and then as Graham Harper says, in his interviews. 856 00:39:29.820 --> 00:39:33.840 Then I just stop, leave the cameras static and let the artists do 857 00:39:33.840 --> 00:39:35.639 what they've been working on for 3 weeks. 858 00:39:35.699 --> 00:39:38.340 And that's when we all start tearing up. 859 00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:42.179 And it's that gorgeous juxtaposition of really beautifully edited 860 00:39:42.179 --> 00:39:43.559 crisp direction. 861 00:39:43.619 --> 00:39:48.179 And I am going to, I was going to mention some of the, some of the 862 00:39:48.179 --> 00:39:50.460 Socarol Reed and David Lean thumbs, because there's a lot of 863 00:39:50.460 --> 00:39:52.019 British army stuff in this. 864 00:39:52.019 --> 00:39:53.639 Then I thought, of course, it's Graham Harper. 865 00:39:53.699 --> 00:39:54.539 He grew up with those films. 866 00:39:54.599 --> 00:39:57.960 He knows how to array soldiers for the camera. 867 00:39:58.019 --> 00:40:01.559 It's just like all the life and death of Colonel Blimp is a great 868 00:40:01.559 --> 00:40:04.380 film that does use almost the same camera angles for their 869 00:40:04.380 --> 00:40:04.800 soldiers. 870 00:40:04.860 --> 00:40:08.280 So, yeah, you've got all of that lovely stuff there. 871 00:40:08.340 --> 00:40:10.619 And then you've got these little moments where, no, I'll just stop 872 00:40:10.619 --> 00:40:10.980 now. 873 00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:12.119 Billy's doing her thing now. 874 00:40:12.179 --> 00:40:13.380 David's doing his thing now. 875 00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:17.039 I just love the way in which when the ghosts finally do come 876 00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:17.280 through. 877 00:40:17.340 --> 00:40:20.400 They suddenly take that formation as soldiers. 878 00:40:20.460 --> 00:40:21.119 Yeah. 879 00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:22.920 And it's just lovely little touches. 880 00:40:23.099 --> 00:40:25.920 And then as we head into the cliffhanger or the intercutting 881 00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:28.139 between what's happening with the doctor, what's happening with 882 00:40:28.139 --> 00:40:32.159 Rose down in the sphere room and the tension is building and, you 883 00:40:32.159 --> 00:40:35.159 know, you're getting that parallel story between them, like the 884 00:40:35.159 --> 00:40:36.239 severe is not ours. 885 00:40:36.300 --> 00:40:38.639 They came through 1st and that sort of stuff as they're 886 00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:39.539 discovering that down there. 887 00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:43.679 I just love that device where you intercut between people having 888 00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:46.139 conversations and finding that out at the same time. 889 00:40:46.199 --> 00:40:50.280 And the 2 plots kind of reach their climax at exactly the same 890 00:40:50.280 --> 00:40:50.579 moment. 891 00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:55.619 In fact, it's 3 plots because we get all those shots of the ghosts 892 00:40:55.619 --> 00:41:00.480 turning into cybermen, you know, at the power estate and uh, in 893 00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:05.940 Paris, I think, and uh, outside the Taj Mahal and sort of news 894 00:41:05.940 --> 00:41:06.659 reports. 895 00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:10.739 We get the guy from the pirate planet warning us to stay in our 896 00:41:10.739 --> 00:41:11.039 home. 897 00:41:11.099 --> 00:41:12.599 Louise Jameson's husband. 898 00:41:12.659 --> 00:41:13.199 Yes. 899 00:41:13.260 --> 00:41:13.619 Yes. 900 00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:20.519 But at the time, it may have been an ex at that time. 901 00:41:21.480 --> 00:41:23.039 He's such a great actor in that, isn't he? 902 00:41:23.159 --> 00:41:24.360 Well, he gets killed. 903 00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:29.400 But like that stuff is tremendous. 904 00:41:29.460 --> 00:41:32.880 And I think the best thing about it, we're being told to stay in 905 00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:36.719 our homes and the cybermen are in our homes. 906 00:41:36.780 --> 00:41:40.619 So, you know, they escape up the stairs from the Cyberman only to 907 00:41:40.619 --> 00:41:42.360 find there's a Cyberman there. 908 00:41:42.420 --> 00:41:47.880 And one of the things that I miss a lot, these massive scale 909 00:41:47.880 --> 00:41:48.659 scenes. 910 00:41:48.719 --> 00:41:53.039 So you get a family, you know, who have nothing to do with the 911 00:41:53.039 --> 00:41:56.880 plot, but are just there to illustrate... 912 00:41:56.940 --> 00:41:58.320 Yeah, it's the inversion of the camera. 913 00:41:58.380 --> 00:41:58.679 Yeah. 914 00:41:58.739 --> 00:41:59.340 Yeah, yeah. 915 00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:00.239 They're us watching it. 916 00:42:00.300 --> 00:42:02.579 They're Eric and Esa for sort of 2006. 917 00:42:03.059 --> 00:42:07.019 So we see the scale of what the cybermen have done. 918 00:42:07.139 --> 00:42:12.179 And we haven't really had that before. 919 00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:16.440 The only classic series, things that I can think of are The 920 00:42:16.440 --> 00:42:20.940 Invasion, where, you know, everyone's out and Cybern are marching 921 00:42:20.940 --> 00:42:23.280 through the streets and clearly this owes a lot to that. 922 00:42:23.340 --> 00:42:28.079 And invasion of the dinosaurs, I guess, when we evacuate London. 923 00:42:28.139 --> 00:42:29.880 But we don't really see that. 924 00:42:29.940 --> 00:42:33.840 Whereas here we see, you know, it's another big public invasion 925 00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:36.360 like the Slovene last year. 926 00:42:36.420 --> 00:42:38.579 And I just adore it. 927 00:42:38.639 --> 00:42:41.820 It's something new that Russell's brought to the program and I'm 928 00:42:41.820 --> 00:42:43.079 absolutely on board with it. 929 00:42:43.139 --> 00:42:44.639 Yeah, no, it's great. 930 00:42:44.699 --> 00:42:46.440 I mean, I love the fact that they actually state we are the 931 00:42:46.440 --> 00:42:47.039 cyberman. 932 00:42:47.159 --> 00:42:48.239 I mean, the fanboy in me. 933 00:42:48.300 --> 00:42:50.039 They have to say it because I didn't really say that. 934 00:42:50.099 --> 00:42:51.960 I don't think in the previous 2 episodes. 935 00:42:52.019 --> 00:42:55.800 Then you've got Mickey Smith, defender, defending the earth, the 936 00:42:55.800 --> 00:42:58.139 earth, like sort of the spinoff that never happened for Rose. 937 00:42:58.199 --> 00:43:01.440 And, you know, the sphere is not our own and then you've got that 938 00:43:01.440 --> 00:43:02.219 music rising. 939 00:43:02.280 --> 00:43:05.400 As the Daleks come out of that. 940 00:43:05.460 --> 00:43:09.239 I think the Dalek music kicks in just before the Daleks appear. 941 00:43:09.300 --> 00:43:15.000 So, um, if you know your music cues, uh, you'll know what it is 942 00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:18.360 and presumably some of the audience would have got a sort of 943 00:43:18.360 --> 00:43:22.440 unidentifiable Dalek related sensation at that moment without 944 00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:24.960 really realising why Dalek tingle. 945 00:43:26.699 --> 00:43:28.199 Tag. 946 00:43:28.380 --> 00:43:32.699 But I like the Wayne Witch, like you've got the cyberman threat 947 00:43:32.699 --> 00:43:35.699 and the threat of the world's collapsing, but then you up the ante 948 00:43:35.699 --> 00:43:36.599 with the Daleks. 949 00:43:36.659 --> 00:43:40.199 You know, had it been the cyber controller coming out in his chair 950 00:43:40.860 --> 00:43:43.380 the same sort of impact at all. 951 00:43:43.500 --> 00:43:47.400 It's like he references the cyber king in this, doesn't he? 952 00:43:47.460 --> 00:43:49.079 Yeah, there is a little nice. 953 00:43:49.139 --> 00:43:50.579 Yeah, nice that these time things through as well. 954 00:43:50.639 --> 00:43:53.940 Oh, what about the cyber thing from Tobias Vaughan's office? 955 00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:55.860 Or the one from Wheeling Space. 956 00:43:55.860 --> 00:43:59.159 The decorative wall feature. in the cupboard. 957 00:43:59.219 --> 00:44:02.219 From Fear Hurst slash the invasion. 958 00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:02.460 Yes. 959 00:44:02.519 --> 00:44:04.260 See, I've never found the cybermen. 960 00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:07.139 That threatening compared to the Daleks. 961 00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:09.960 The only time I've ever been more sort of afraid of them was in 962 00:44:09.960 --> 00:44:11.099 Revenge of the Sidemen. 963 00:44:11.159 --> 00:44:11.519 I agree. 964 00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:15.119 When you've got the cyber mats that were poisoning everybody, and 965 00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:16.199 that sort of freaked me out. 966 00:44:16.260 --> 00:44:21.000 So to have something here that is even more of a threat, going 967 00:44:21.000 --> 00:44:23.159 into the cliffhanger is just tremendous. 968 00:44:23.159 --> 00:44:26.340 And you'd sort of, your senses are overloaded between all of these 969 00:44:26.340 --> 00:44:28.860 things and also knowing that Rose could potentially die. 970 00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:32.880 And then you've got the 2nd cliffhanger, which is the next time on 971 00:44:32.880 --> 00:44:36.239 Doctor Who, straight following it, where, again, he's already 972 00:44:36.239 --> 00:44:39.900 misdirecting us with, oh, this is a story of how I died, but then 973 00:44:39.900 --> 00:44:42.900 in the way that next time it's cut together, you actually believe 974 00:44:42.900 --> 00:44:46.679 that the Cyberman and the Daleks are going to be working together 975 00:44:46.679 --> 00:44:48.659 it's very very clever. 976 00:45:13.800 --> 00:45:17.519 Well, dear listener, those darlets aren't going to run away from 977 00:45:17.519 --> 00:45:19.860 themselves, so it's time for us to leg it. 978 00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:23.519 We'll be back next week, ready to moisten up for doomsday. 979 00:45:24.239 --> 00:45:28.380 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts 980 00:45:28.380 --> 00:45:31.079 and you can keep up with us at flightthroughentirety.com. 981 00:45:31.139 --> 00:45:34.739 Flight through entirety on Facebook and at FT podcast on Twitter. 982 00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:38.460 You can also find our Series 11 Flashcast, Jody Interterra, at 983 00:45:38.460 --> 00:45:42.239 Jody Interterra.com, and at Jody Interterra on Twitter, and our 984 00:45:42.239 --> 00:45:46.380 James Bond commentary podcast, Bondfinger at bondfinger.com, at 985 00:45:46.380 --> 00:45:49.739 bondfinger on Facebook, and at bondfingercast on Twitter. 986 00:45:49.800 --> 00:45:54.000 Until next time, please make sure you always insert your AirPods 987 00:45:54.000 --> 00:45:57.840 firmly, but gently, on no account should they be shoved roughly 988 00:45:57.840 --> 00:45:58.619 into your brain. 989 00:45:58.679 --> 00:46:01.079 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 990 00:46:01.260 --> 00:46:02.880 See you soon. 991 00:46:02.940 --> 00:46:03.599 Thank you. 992 00:46:06.900 --> 00:46:10.559 That was Flight Through Entirety, starting Todd B, it'll be Nathan 993 00:46:10.559 --> 00:46:13.619 Bodley, James Selwood and Richard Stone, theme arrangement by 994 00:46:13.619 --> 00:46:16.320 Cameron Lamb, Strings Performance by Jane Allberg. 995 00:46:16.380 --> 00:46:19.980 This episode, Grandad Prentice Hancock, was recorded on the 28th 996 00:46:19.980 --> 00:46:22.860 of April 2019 and released on the 2nd of June. 997 00:46:26.340 --> 00:46:30.059 Of course, the Australian version of Torch, what is called Torch 998 00:46:30.059 --> 00:46:33.000 Walker, and is mostly concerned with spiders, land, and white 999 00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:33.360 people. 1000 00:46:33.420 --> 00:46:36.480 If interested, contact our new assistant minister for 1001 00:46:36.480 --> 00:46:38.940 Multicultural Affairs, Parliament House, Canberra. 1002 00:46:39.960 --> 00:46:45.059 If I say the words you know one more time, kill me today, because 1003 00:46:45.059 --> 00:46:45.659 I keep doing it. 1004 00:46:45.719 --> 00:46:47.099 I edit a lot of them out. 1005 00:46:47.159 --> 00:46:48.780 I'm much worse than you. 1006 00:46:48.840 --> 00:46:52.619 The floor is littered with me saying, you know, over and over 1007 00:46:52.619 --> 00:46:52.860 again. 1008 00:46:52.920 --> 00:46:54.780 The last episode I was in. 1009 00:46:54.840 --> 00:46:55.619 That all I kept saying. 1010 00:46:55.679 --> 00:46:58.679 I kept hearing it and going, oh, Nathan, you just must want to 1011 00:46:58.679 --> 00:46:59.280 just destroy me. 1012 00:46:59.340 --> 00:47:02.760 No, no, that actually is a nice tag with you. 1013 00:47:02.820 --> 00:47:04.739 You're going to die for the 1st bit. 1014 00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:09.420 Nathan probably recognises the waveform. 1015 00:47:09.480 --> 00:47:11.219 Okay, before you know now. 1016 00:47:11.760 --> 00:47:14.940 But when the doctor actually like...