WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:19:15 1 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:46.259 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight through Entirety, the only Modern and People Focus Doctor Who podcast that thinks it's very important to know everyone by name. 2 00:00:46.320 --> 00:00:47.640 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:47.700 --> 00:00:48.780 James. 4 00:00:48.899 --> 00:00:50.340 I'm Todd. 5 00:00:50.399 --> 00:00:52.979 And this is the story of how I left. 6 00:00:53.460 --> 00:00:57.899 This is the story of how I left FTE podcast to go to the toilet. 7 00:00:58.500 --> 00:01:00.780 So what's new with you, Richard? 8 00:01:00.840 --> 00:01:03.659 Well, I'm just temping for this episode. 9 00:01:03.659 --> 00:01:05.519 I'm hoping someone will give me a full-time job. 10 00:01:05.579 --> 00:01:06.659 You know, it's worth a crack. 11 00:01:08.040 --> 00:01:19.439 Well, we've arrived back on Earth for another two-part finale, only to find that all our dead racist relatives are back. voting for you, Kip, and sticking the place up with cheap cigarettes. 12 00:01:19.500 --> 00:01:23.340 It's a pungent and terrifying army of ghosts. 13 00:01:35.459 --> 00:01:37.620 Listeners, I had you all going there for a moment. 14 00:01:37.739 --> 00:01:44.040 I wasn't giving you quite enough information, and I was sort of misdirecting you a bit, you know, you thought I was actually going to leave. 15 00:01:44.099 --> 00:01:59.099 And the beginning of this episode, we've got that new who classic trick of giving us certain information without giving us maybe the correct information or all of the story and I certainly was very worried. 16 00:01:59.159 --> 00:02:00.060 Were you worried? 17 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:04.140 Did we think that Billy Piper's character was going to die at the end of this? 18 00:02:04.200 --> 00:02:08.280 We'll be suspended in the narrative because that's what naughty Russell does. 19 00:02:08.340 --> 00:02:09.539 He knows he's writing a soap. 20 00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:11.099 And there's no doctor who never does that. 21 00:02:11.159 --> 00:02:12.360 Sorry, Matthew Waterhouse. 22 00:02:12.419 --> 00:02:13.379 Doctor Who never does that. 23 00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:15.780 Sorry, Katerina, Doc, you never does that. 24 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:16.740 Sorry, Gene Marsh. 25 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:19.979 Never, ever, ever, ever, ever, unless we do. 26 00:02:20.039 --> 00:02:31.379 So I remember a story and it's probably recounted on Elle Sandifer's blog, and it's Russell talking about Bad Wolf. 27 00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:33.180 And in Bad Wolf. 28 00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:39.300 There's a scene where it looks like Rose has been shot and she turns into a little sort of pile of dust on the floor. 29 00:02:39.360 --> 00:02:48.599 And Russell says that the audience, the child audience would know that she wasn't dead. 30 00:02:48.659 --> 00:02:55.319 And I think that that's because she's too important a character for us to kill off. 31 00:02:55.379 --> 00:03:09.300 There's no way that we could have found that final episode next week's episode satisfying or even tolerable, I think, if the focus character for the last 2 years had ended up dying. 32 00:03:09.360 --> 00:03:12.599 Well, you'd end up with something like, I don't know, torchwood. 33 00:03:13.740 --> 00:03:17.460 Where everyone ends up dying sooner or later. 34 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:28.020 But I mean, that is geared towards adults, in theory at least, or sort of horny 15 years. that's right. who also pine for Joss Whedon. 35 00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:28.379 So, yeah. 36 00:03:28.439 --> 00:03:30.539 I mean, we've been leaning into her dying. 37 00:03:30.599 --> 00:03:39.120 We got a mention from the beast a few weeks ago who said that she would soon die in battle, and we know now, of course, that that was shot after this was. 38 00:03:39.180 --> 00:03:42.360 And so they sort of stuck it in as some foreshadowing. 39 00:03:42.419 --> 00:03:50.460 And then last week, of course, at the end of fear her, there's some kind of big battle coming and something terrible is going to happen. 40 00:03:50.520 --> 00:03:52.080 So we have been leaning into it. 41 00:03:52.139 --> 00:03:55.800 Yeah, and like she's never, ever, ever, ever going to leave you. 42 00:03:55.860 --> 00:03:57.000 Yeah, yeah. 43 00:03:57.060 --> 00:04:00.599 Well, that's a bad situation when somebody says that. 44 00:04:00.659 --> 00:04:02.819 Well, I think we knew that she was going to leave. 45 00:04:02.879 --> 00:04:06.060 It had certainly been announced that Billy Piper was leaving the program by then. 46 00:04:06.120 --> 00:04:08.520 So the big question is, how does she leave? 47 00:04:08.520 --> 00:04:14.819 and the other big question is, how on earth are we going to cope with a modern Doctor Who that doesn't have Camille Kaduri in it? 48 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:23.399 And I seem to remember that I was much, much more upset about the prospect of Camille leaving the show than I ever was about Billy Piper. 49 00:04:23.459 --> 00:04:30.779 It's so wonderful to see Camille front and centre in this episode really taking the role of the Doctor Who companion. 50 00:04:30.839 --> 00:04:32.699 She hasn't been in a lot of this season. 51 00:04:32.759 --> 00:04:39.360 Like, it's just been little scenes, save for 2 weeks ago when she was in Love and Monsters. 52 00:04:39.420 --> 00:04:42.000 Yeah, where it was a great affecting role. 53 00:04:42.060 --> 00:04:45.540 But besides that, it's been alternate Jackie and just little bits and pieces. 54 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:52.199 So to have her right smack bang in the middle of the plot saying grandad, Prentice, Hancock has come back. 55 00:04:52.379 --> 00:04:54.779 You know, it's just fantastic. 56 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:59.040 I always think that. a wide role. 57 00:04:59.100 --> 00:05:04.259 Because he's not, he's got not a lot to do, but he is wearing flares. 58 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:05.579 Not much has changed. 59 00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:06.779 Every time she says that. 60 00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:13.019 I always think grandad, Prentice, Hancock. and I think Doctor Who Classic says the rebus operation and the planet of evil. 61 00:05:13.139 --> 00:05:16.079 I really hope that's what Russell meant now. 62 00:05:16.139 --> 00:05:18.360 He's probably tractably evil. 63 00:05:18.420 --> 00:05:20.639 Wouldn't be exactly meaning that. 64 00:05:20.699 --> 00:05:25.740 Yeah, she is the, again, she's the lovely warm, sparkly heart in everything she's in, isn't she? 65 00:05:25.800 --> 00:05:28.379 I love her. when she's talking about being on set. 66 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:37.800 She's exactly the same as Jackie when Camille says, oh, I was standing right next to a cyber person and I turned and I thought he was, I was on his mark and he gave me such a blank look. 67 00:05:37.980 --> 00:05:38.639 It was horrifying. 68 00:05:39.300 --> 00:05:54.480 There's a beautiful moment where she really annoys the doctor by repeatedly kissing him and like grabbing him and calling him, you know, big fella and giving him a big kiss and stuff, which I just think is absolutely terrific. 69 00:05:54.540 --> 00:05:57.060 Like she now has the upper hand. 70 00:05:57.120 --> 00:06:02.040 She gets to make the doctor feel uncomfortable and I think that's really kind of sweet. 71 00:06:02.100 --> 00:06:04.680 And all the way through, she does it. 72 00:06:04.740 --> 00:06:11.339 There's a wonderful moment next week where the doctor leaps in for some much needed exposition and she just tells him he can shut up now. 73 00:06:12.660 --> 00:06:20.279 But he does treat her like, you know, he puts it down so much in this episode, yet she still just, you know, sucks it up and bounces back. 74 00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:30.000 When the doctor actually like explains who she is, like not the best I've ever had, age 57 years because she looked into the time vortex. 75 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:34.800 Like, she says, I'm 40 and he goes, delusional. 76 00:06:35.279 --> 00:06:37.680 They make such a wonderful team. 77 00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:42.540 And it's such a lovely sort of foreshadowing to perhaps a companion who would be more his own age. 78 00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:43.620 Yeah, yeah. 79 00:06:43.620 --> 00:06:48.360 Who's willing to sort of, you know, have that sort of banter and have little digs at each other. 80 00:06:48.420 --> 00:06:49.980 But she's there for him. 81 00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:57.600 When he pulls that chair up when Yvonne is going to do the ghost shift, she stands there right behind him, like backing him up. 82 00:06:57.660 --> 00:06:59.100 And it's beautiful. 83 00:06:59.160 --> 00:07:03.180 Their bonding is beautiful despite all that little niggling throughout the episode. 84 00:07:03.240 --> 00:07:04.019 She's just a delight. 85 00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:07.259 It's so great having her be the companion. 86 00:07:07.379 --> 00:07:08.279 And the one thing. 87 00:07:08.339 --> 00:07:14.879 I mean, it was just the one thing they had to do with her given that it was going to be her last sort of semi-regular appearance on the show. 88 00:07:14.939 --> 00:07:23.939 And the only thing that I kind of miss is that she never got to travel to an alien planet with them, which would have just been tremendous. 89 00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:25.920 It would have been very funny. 90 00:07:25.980 --> 00:07:33.000 I mean, I guess I get a bit disappointed when she says, we better not end up on Mars or wherever, you know, when she's inside the Tartars. 91 00:07:33.060 --> 00:07:38.279 It's sort of like, oh, Jackie, I kind of would like you to end up on an alien planet. 92 00:07:38.339 --> 00:07:39.600 But I'm with you. 93 00:07:39.660 --> 00:07:47.399 It's such a, at the time, knowing that Billy was leaving, knowing that Camille would be going as well was quite devastating. 94 00:07:47.459 --> 00:07:54.839 And I don't think there's quite been a mother like her since they've they've had some good attempts at it, but for me, she is the best mum in the show. 95 00:07:54.899 --> 00:08:00.959 It's not like she's Amy's mum or Clara's mum or Bill. right? 96 00:08:01.019 --> 00:08:04.980 A case of perhaps diminishing returns there, but she's just a joy. 97 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:05.759 Yeah. 98 00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:13.740 I think Jackie King probably gives her a bit of a run for her money in series four, but as Brendan would say, we're getting ahead of ourselves. 99 00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:26.939 So we come back to Earth, we're in the middle of something, and invasion has already started to happen. 100 00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:30.300 Always the best way, as Russell said, bring him in in the middle of the drama. 101 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:35.519 We don't appear on a white void set and unless we're doing episode one of the mind robber. 102 00:08:35.580 --> 00:08:37.259 Everyone disses the mind robber as well. 103 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:39.179 Yeah, no, we're not doing that kind of thing anymore. 104 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:40.919 And it's much more exciting because of that. 105 00:08:40.980 --> 00:08:46.559 It also, unfortunately, means that we don't get to see David being quiet as much as I would like. 106 00:08:46.620 --> 00:08:48.419 Yeah, yeah. 107 00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:50.820 I quite like it when he doesn't do anything. 108 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:52.259 That's right. 109 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:54.480 When he's on screen, but not saying anything. 110 00:08:55.379 --> 00:08:59.039 But it's a little bit like invasion of the dinosaurs. 111 00:08:59.100 --> 00:09:07.019 Something huge and worldwide has happened and our, you know, the doctor and rose appear and they don't know what's going on yet. 112 00:09:07.139 --> 00:09:10.259 And so Jackie is the one who gets to explain it to them. 113 00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:20.940 But it gives rise to something that sort of happened last season, but becomes an episode 12 tradition, which is the celebrity cameos. 114 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:30.480 Oh, on the TV, like with the weather and then the Tricia Show and that ad they do, Ecto Shine, and then Barbara Windsor in EastEnders. 115 00:09:30.779 --> 00:09:33.299 Dirty Dens Ghost comes back. 116 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:36.899 You know, you know that's that's an in-joke in joke. 117 00:09:36.960 --> 00:09:37.500 Really? 118 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:38.340 Because... 119 00:09:38.340 --> 00:09:39.539 Does he come back? 120 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:41.159 Well, he left the year before, did he? 121 00:09:41.220 --> 00:09:42.240 Dirty 10 Watts. 122 00:09:43.080 --> 00:09:45.960 Who is Kisten in Resurrection of the Dialects? 123 00:09:46.019 --> 00:09:47.100 That his wife. 124 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:51.840 Chrissy Watts was played by Tracy Ann openly. 125 00:09:51.899 --> 00:09:52.980 Ah. 126 00:09:52.980 --> 00:09:54.240 How about that? 127 00:09:54.299 --> 00:09:57.179 You know, it's not just, oh, isn't that funny? 128 00:09:57.240 --> 00:10:00.659 Okay, let's bring back Den Watts and it was Kiston. 129 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:05.340 It's a reference to the fact that you've got his ex-wife in the show. 130 00:10:05.399 --> 00:10:05.759 Yeah. 131 00:10:05.820 --> 00:10:08.700 I just adore that Barbara Wins is now canon. 132 00:10:08.759 --> 00:10:11.820 I think it's amazing that she had never been in the show before. 133 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:15.000 I mean, it's if Tom Baker got talked to in the scratchment off the ground. 134 00:10:15.059 --> 00:10:18.419 Surely she would have been, you know, the companion in that or something like that. 135 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:20.399 She would have played Camille Kuduri. 136 00:10:20.460 --> 00:10:21.299 Ah, yeah. 137 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:27.299 I mean, they've had Joan Sims back in the 80s from the carry on movies, but I'm just really surprised that Barbara never made it until this point in time. 138 00:10:27.419 --> 00:10:42.059 We also have Derek Akora, which I think is a really funny little cameo because he's the sort of famous ghost hunter and he's on TV lamenting that no one needs him anymore because there's ghosts all over the place, which I think is pretty good. 139 00:10:42.120 --> 00:10:43.679 And so this will go on. 140 00:10:43.740 --> 00:10:49.019 We'll get that again next year and it'll be a thing that happens from time to time in the future, I think. 141 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:54.059 It's another way that Russell is able to say we own all of television. 142 00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:54.840 Yes. 143 00:10:54.840 --> 00:10:59.279 This is a show about a television box with a box flying around inside the box. 144 00:10:59.340 --> 00:11:00.240 Yeah, yeah. 145 00:11:00.299 --> 00:11:03.240 That's how Billy Hartnell explains it. 146 00:11:03.299 --> 00:11:03.899 It is. 147 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:05.100 Billy Piper Hartnell. 148 00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:06.179 Billy Piper Hartle. 149 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:07.200 You've discovered television. 150 00:11:07.259 --> 00:11:08.879 With similar tombstone teeth. 151 00:11:08.940 --> 00:11:09.899 You knew she was going to die. 152 00:11:09.960 --> 00:11:13.500 She's been carrying the graveyard around in her mouth 10 years now. 153 00:11:13.740 --> 00:11:16.320 It's such silliness, but I love it. 154 00:11:16.379 --> 00:11:18.720 I just love all those little cameos Oh, no, we do. 155 00:11:18.779 --> 00:11:26.399 It will also, as little fan children of the of the never wear of the previous generation, it posits us in reality. 156 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:32.399 And we used to get so excited when Doctor Who was mentioned on Dave Allen, or there was a little clip of anything. 157 00:11:32.460 --> 00:11:37.200 This is a little nod for the children now to know that, you know, you're big, but this is the difference though. 158 00:11:37.259 --> 00:11:43.019 Back then, it was a discreet, quiet, little nerdy thing that was just lost amongst the rest of television. 159 00:11:43.080 --> 00:11:48.659 And not saying it was any less popular, but it also wasn't that much more special except to us. 160 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:49.559 Yeah. 161 00:11:49.559 --> 00:11:56.759 And now, of course, with media, the whole world can share being nerdasmic little children again, like weekend. 162 00:11:56.820 --> 00:11:57.299 We're not. 163 00:11:57.360 --> 00:11:59.159 I don't know that we're as special as we used to. 164 00:11:59.220 --> 00:12:02.159 No, but I think that's a great thing. 165 00:12:02.220 --> 00:12:16.500 I actually remember, and I've probably said this on the podcast before, when series one was on air, someone at work said, you look happy, and I said, I have to confess that it's because Doctor Who's back on, you know, and not only that, but it's the biggest thing on TV. 166 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:22.080 And I think this is the era when Doctor Who is at its most important. 167 00:12:22.139 --> 00:12:32.879 It's at its biggest, maybe in the mid 70s as well, but definitely here where it is absolutely massive and will continue to be for the next couple of years. 168 00:12:44.940 --> 00:12:48.960 The ghosts, did you suspect that they were the side limit? 169 00:12:49.019 --> 00:12:49.320 No. 170 00:12:49.379 --> 00:12:51.659 It's a very strange way of bringing them back, isn't it? 171 00:12:51.720 --> 00:12:53.820 Because the cyberman, James. 172 00:12:53.879 --> 00:13:02.759 Well, they deliberately spread a rumour back in 2006 that it was the Gelf returning to throw people off. 173 00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:06.539 And she actually says, asks if it's the gals, doesn't she? 174 00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:08.460 And he says, don't be dumb. 175 00:13:08.519 --> 00:13:10.980 We're never bringing them back. 176 00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:14.940 Saws. 177 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:16.799 I love his dialogue. 178 00:13:16.860 --> 00:13:18.779 Like the footprint doesn't look like a boot. 179 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:20.820 Yeah, it's that's a lovely line, isn't it? 180 00:13:20.940 --> 00:13:21.360 Hang on. 181 00:13:21.419 --> 00:13:22.200 Is that... 182 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:24.360 Are we lampshading something else? 183 00:13:24.419 --> 00:13:26.759 Is that actually... 184 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:29.039 Now, but isn't it Conan Doyle reference? 185 00:13:29.100 --> 00:13:32.340 Doesn't it come back, gentle listener, out there might remember? 186 00:13:32.399 --> 00:13:33.720 I know that line. 187 00:13:33.779 --> 00:13:39.480 It is a clever way of introducing. off Watson. the eider down muddy. 188 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:39.960 Yes. 189 00:13:40.080 --> 00:13:42.240 I do remember that one. 190 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:50.340 All other, whole other fanfic world just opened up beyond the bridge. called Sherlock. 191 00:13:51.240 --> 00:13:58.320 It's a very strange way of bringing them back because they have been science fiction villains very much. 192 00:13:58.379 --> 00:14:01.320 And so bringing them back in this weird, supernatural way. 193 00:14:01.379 --> 00:14:04.019 You know, it's a way that none of us would have predicted. 194 00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:06.240 In fact, from the edge, back from memory. 195 00:14:06.299 --> 00:14:07.740 It's a very nice way of doing. 196 00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:09.720 I think it is it is tremendous. 197 00:14:09.779 --> 00:14:13.379 It could be a bit of phasic if you can't remember a couple of months ago. 198 00:14:13.379 --> 00:14:15.059 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 199 00:14:16.019 --> 00:14:35.580 It's always interesting how Russell sets these things up because back in the age of steel, Rise of the Cyberman, it was quite clear that the worlds had closed and thus it kind of could possibly be the Cyberman, the fanboy in you wants that, but it's been stated that it's highly unlikely, you know, if worlds are colliding. 200 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:42.360 So you're sort of discounting it at the same time as wanting it to happen, which I think is a really clever writing. 201 00:14:42.419 --> 00:14:44.519 I mean, it had to be them, didn't it? 202 00:14:44.580 --> 00:14:51.960 Last year, it was a monster that had been brought back for the 1st time in the two-part finale, and so this year, it's the same pattern. 203 00:14:52.019 --> 00:15:03.419 And I've observed before that series one brings back the Dalek series 2 brings back the Seidman series 3 brings back the master, you know, corresponding to the main antagonists of the 1st 3 doctors. 204 00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:10.259 Russell is bringing the mythology of the program to a whole new generation of viewers in the same order. 205 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:15.240 And series 4 brings back Davros, just like Davros is introduced with the 4th. 206 00:15:15.299 --> 00:15:15.899 Yeah, yeah. 207 00:15:15.960 --> 00:15:18.899 So, and the sultanans, obviously. 208 00:15:19.019 --> 00:15:20.940 The sudden and themselves. 209 00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:23.940 For me, I've never been the greatest villains of all time. 210 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:24.720 No, they're terrible. 211 00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:37.200 But it was really great listening to your Age of Steel Rise of the Cyberman podcast. because we're obviously still recording this as the season has been released. 212 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:38.759 And I've just listened to those. 213 00:15:38.820 --> 00:15:45.659 But your whole discussion about the way in which Russell has reinvented the cyberman and the new origins. 214 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:51.779 I found really quite interesting because I had just sort of dismissed the whole thing. 215 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:55.620 I hated that when I watched it originally because it wasn't the original. 216 00:15:55.740 --> 00:15:56.879 Well, it wasn't not like you. 217 00:15:56.940 --> 00:15:58.559 Not at all. 218 00:15:58.620 --> 00:16:10.559 Because it wasn't the original cyberman who had a history with the doctor was just these robotic monsters that are all the same that are just, you know, have no history with the doctor. 219 00:16:10.620 --> 00:16:13.919 So I just kind of went, that's a whole load of rubbish. 220 00:16:13.980 --> 00:16:16.320 Thus, I'm going to dismiss those 2 episodes. 221 00:16:16.379 --> 00:16:20.220 And so having these cyberman cybers things coming back here. 222 00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:22.320 It's sort of like, well, they're not really the cybermen. 223 00:16:22.379 --> 00:16:23.519 They're just fakes. 224 00:16:23.580 --> 00:16:33.960 But I really did enjoy your discussion about why he did that and how he reinvented them and coming not from like, you know, some 10th planet thing, you know, upside down earth. 225 00:16:34.019 --> 00:16:37.620 Yeah, so I actually do really appreciate that discussion. 226 00:16:37.620 --> 00:16:46.679 And certainly coming into watching these episodes and even reevaluating age of steel and rise of sidemen, it certainly improved my appreciation. 227 00:16:46.740 --> 00:16:51.360 I do think here, though, they are kind of generic robot monsters in a way. 228 00:16:51.419 --> 00:16:55.019 They do upgrade people and that's clearly their aim. 229 00:16:55.080 --> 00:17:02.580 And so that's something that Russell has chosen to foreground that very often gets forgotten in the classic series. 230 00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:07.319 With a notable exception tide of attack of the side men, which does upgrade people. 231 00:17:08.039 --> 00:17:10.019 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 232 00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:12.359 I think it's very much back to Kit Peddler. 233 00:17:12.420 --> 00:17:12.900 Yeah. 234 00:17:12.900 --> 00:17:15.720 In that it was all about the fear of technology. 235 00:17:15.779 --> 00:17:21.779 And the fear of modern, you know, where they were talking, Christian Barnard was talking about at the time on anyway, he was good. 236 00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:25.680 We've talked about this before, actually. heart replacement surgery. 237 00:17:25.740 --> 00:17:30.720 Goodness, I'm getting a flashback, dear listener, 1978 when we 1st did this podcast. 238 00:17:30.779 --> 00:17:31.079 Yeah. 239 00:17:31.140 --> 00:17:33.539 So the same fears are there. 240 00:17:33.539 --> 00:17:39.900 And the little AirPod thing is very clear, but Russell talks about why do we constantly need the new thing? 241 00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:42.779 What is it about the fear of being left behind? 242 00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:46.559 And that maybe is the clinch of this episode. 243 00:17:46.619 --> 00:17:53.640 The fear of rose being left behind, or in other words, dying is the saying that we fear, the little FOMO fear. 244 00:17:53.700 --> 00:17:56.099 Get out the BBC FOMO machine. 245 00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:58.740 That's what this episode is all about. 246 00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:00.960 Yeah, the fear of missing out. 247 00:18:01.019 --> 00:18:05.400 The fear of not being part of whatever this collective is. 248 00:18:05.460 --> 00:18:06.900 Have we mentioned Brexit yet? 249 00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:07.559 don't think. 250 00:18:07.619 --> 00:18:08.400 No, normally we have to. 251 00:18:08.579 --> 00:18:18.359 I do think, though, there's sort of so much going on that there isn't that much time for the sidemen to do very much apart from sort of stomping around the place. 252 00:18:18.420 --> 00:18:19.799 And that's why we have Graham Harper. 253 00:18:19.859 --> 00:18:21.119 Yes, we do. 254 00:18:21.180 --> 00:18:22.859 Can you imagine how doll this would be without him? 255 00:18:22.980 --> 00:18:27.660 Getting 9.7% appreciation from, not from the viewing figures. 256 00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:28.799 I think they got about James. 257 00:18:28.859 --> 00:18:30.240 You're our lexicographer here. 258 00:18:30.299 --> 00:18:31.859 The appreciation. 259 00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:32.880 Yeah, it was eight. 260 00:18:32.940 --> 00:18:33.779 That's not bad. 261 00:18:33.900 --> 00:18:38.579 I'm being seventh, I think, that was only after Corey and more football. 262 00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:40.259 England lost that week. 263 00:18:40.380 --> 00:18:44.039 I was hoping they'd throw a reference in, but I don't think they did, but there was a major thing, you know. 264 00:18:44.099 --> 00:18:49.859 But getting that sort of thing, it's just Graham Harper, it really would, there's not much in this. really thin. 265 00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:51.660 Yeah, I think that that's true. 266 00:18:51.720 --> 00:19:01.920 I mean, you get the ghosts introduced and then you get a guided tour of torchwood and we kind of set up the situation for next week. 267 00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:03.839 Which is the apprentice. 268 00:19:03.900 --> 00:19:05.220 You know, that's the location. 269 00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:09.299 That's the same opening establishing shot that the British apprentice used. 270 00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:11.039 Yeah, the aerial shot. 271 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:13.019 Yeah, the Crown Tower, whatever it is. 272 00:19:13.079 --> 00:19:18.779 They had originally, I think, intended to create their own CG tower, but kind of ran out of money. 273 00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:21.240 It was going to be over the breach, wasn't it, James? 274 00:19:21.299 --> 00:19:24.779 It was originally written to be in the writer's tale. 275 00:19:24.839 --> 00:19:29.400 It was over the over the card. originally, originally, the episode was set in Cardiff. 276 00:19:29.460 --> 00:19:31.200 Oh, okay. over the time riff. 277 00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:31.920 Right. 278 00:19:31.980 --> 00:19:46.619 And when Torchwood was commissioned to series, Russell decided, oh, I'll set it in London, make it bigger, make the whole torch would mythology, and then destroy that. 279 00:19:46.680 --> 00:19:55.380 And then we have this one over here, which is still relatively unaffected by the events of that story, apart from, say, Yanto. 280 00:19:55.440 --> 00:20:03.900 I think that we did talk in our previous episode about the way that Russell takes London and stuffs it full of secret alien bases and stuff. 281 00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:09.000 And so this is another example of that where you look at Canary Wharf. 282 00:20:09.059 --> 00:20:14.400 You see that very building and you think about how Torch would actually build that in order to get to the rift. 283 00:20:14.460 --> 00:20:16.319 And I just love that. 284 00:20:16.380 --> 00:20:19.740 That's one of my favourite things about this era of Doctor Who. 285 00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:27.059 But it's so ridiculous that the cybermen came through 1st and then they're just in the office space next door behind some plastic sheets. 286 00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:41.819 And then, and then, and then like Gareth goes in, and he gets cyber tied and you hear nothing, then Freemas, and whatever her name is, goes in and she screams and sees a cyberman, and then Matt, I want to see something? 287 00:20:41.940 --> 00:20:47.460 Yes, Matt, you go in, but you get to scream and have all the like, it's like an angle grinder, isn't it? 288 00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:49.559 Thank you, mate. angle grinder and anything like that. 289 00:20:49.619 --> 00:20:51.059 Like, I just love the way it goes from. 290 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:52.740 No noise to like full on. 291 00:20:53.460 --> 00:20:58.380 Our office is in the Governor Philip Tower down at the quay on the top floor. 292 00:20:58.440 --> 00:21:04.619 And for the last, honestly, 4 or 5 months, we've had the office suite being built around us, there's a lot of screaming. 293 00:21:04.619 --> 00:21:11.940 And honestly, the glint in the eye from the mirror balls, those builders put up constantly. 294 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:14.039 It's really not that far. 295 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:15.900 It's not that far different really, isn't it? 296 00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:20.039 In fact, it's the only kind of interesting peril that sort of happens, isn't it? 297 00:21:20.099 --> 00:21:24.420 Because it is just very much an introduction and a guided tour. 298 00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:27.779 And so we have to have the cybermen do something. 299 00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:31.200 And so that's, I think, why they're there doing that in this episode. 300 00:21:31.259 --> 00:21:33.180 Yeah, it's all William Patterson. 301 00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:40.500 I see them all as being Bill Patterson's resurrected career from the rocketeer. because it's that same gorgeous 30s, Will Eisner helmet design. 302 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:47.160 But hang on, didn't the sphere come through 1st and created the breach through which the cybermen were able to follow? 303 00:21:47.220 --> 00:21:51.000 So was this, there's huge bronze ball in the air? 304 00:21:51.059 --> 00:21:52.079 James? 305 00:21:52.140 --> 00:21:56.460 The sphere came through after the tower was built. 306 00:21:56.519 --> 00:22:01.559 So they noticed the breach and then built a tower and then the sphere came through. 307 00:22:01.619 --> 00:22:03.299 I like the sphere a lot. 308 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:05.160 I think it's very cool. 309 00:22:05.220 --> 00:22:07.440 And it's a sort of great idea. 310 00:22:07.500 --> 00:22:22.500 And it's one of those things too, that Russell manages to explain in just sort of very normal terms, you know, there is a talk about no sort of electromagnetic radiation and no mass and no kind of anything, no readings from it, as if it isn't there. 311 00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:30.299 And just that detail where it said, that's why it makes you feel uncomfortable because it doesn't seem to be there. 312 00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:37.980 And he manages to achieve that and make it uncanny without leaning very heavily into sort of science fiction gobbledygook. 313 00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:43.740 Yes, it's a mystery. another mystery on top of things, and you have to wonder, how does that work with the cyberman? 314 00:22:43.799 --> 00:22:51.119 And part of the fanboy in me, when you look at your kind of thing, Oh, could it be something to do with the Daleks being like a sphere, but you could sort of discount that? 315 00:22:51.180 --> 00:22:52.319 I can't remember. 316 00:22:52.380 --> 00:22:53.279 That's good that you guessed. 317 00:22:53.339 --> 00:22:54.240 I'd hadn't guessed at the time. 318 00:22:54.299 --> 00:22:56.279 It's a little... 319 00:22:56.339 --> 00:22:57.839 Paul, he said it. 320 00:22:57.900 --> 00:23:02.039 It's a nod to the hard SF of the 60s. 321 00:23:02.099 --> 00:23:15.059 So Fred and Jeffrey Hoyle and Standard Style Lamb, and, you know, who would posit things like this, that, you know, especially in Standard Style Limbs writing, where you've got things that shouldn't exist, and it's about the disquiet of being in around unrealities. 322 00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:17.220 It's really nicely done. 323 00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:19.440 Because again, it ties in with the whole new tech thing. 324 00:23:19.500 --> 00:23:22.319 We're very comfortable with things that slightly frighten us. 325 00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:40.079 Or then maybe there's that sense of the brave new world of having to overcome our fears by believing that we're in control of it, but underneath there's the substantive fear that we don't actually know as, as, um, David said it at the time, it gets into our little plastic things and we don't know how it gets there. 326 00:23:40.140 --> 00:24:01.200 I assume he's talking about his phone. but I love the fact that that entire plot allows Rose to do a very classic Doctor Who thing of the companion investigating separately and she gets to put on the white lab coat and then follow somebody down somewhere else and she's got her own little story to solve. 327 00:24:01.259 --> 00:24:04.980 She's pert we for most of this episode, isn't she? 328 00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:06.119 He puts on a white cone. 329 00:24:06.180 --> 00:24:11.039 I mean, both parts of the episode separate the doctor and Rose for pretty much all of it. 330 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:17.700 They're not together very much, except in the sort of last few scenes of the final episode. 331 00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:25.259 But what we do get, and what was an absolute surprise, is the reappearance of Mickey. 332 00:24:25.319 --> 00:24:27.000 Does she follow him down there? 333 00:24:27.059 --> 00:24:28.380 Is he the scientist you're following or not? 334 00:24:28.500 --> 00:24:30.059 At the last minute? 335 00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:34.920 Sure, but he is definitely visible in shot before he turns around. 336 00:24:34.980 --> 00:24:36.240 With his back to her. 337 00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:37.319 Yeah, yeah. 338 00:24:37.380 --> 00:24:40.859 And he's had a haircut or whatever and we don't recognise him. 339 00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:43.259 He's wearing that great hoodie anyway. 340 00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:44.700 Did you know it was him? 341 00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:45.660 Had you spotted him before? 342 00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:48.359 I haven't in the in the day. 343 00:24:48.420 --> 00:24:49.740 I didn't even do it again this time. 344 00:24:49.859 --> 00:24:51.359 Oh, that's right. 345 00:24:51.420 --> 00:24:52.019 It appears in it. 346 00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:53.460 It's been so long since I watched. 347 00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:57.720 No, I kind of remember my gaze sort of went to the person in the background. 348 00:24:57.779 --> 00:25:01.019 Why is that person sort of horring in the background, but I didn't really... 349 00:25:01.079 --> 00:25:03.839 And then when he turns around, it's like, oh, my goodness, you know? 350 00:25:04.140 --> 00:25:04.680 How fantastic. 351 00:25:04.740 --> 00:25:12.119 And I do think too, that it is a good idea to have Rose and Mickey together. 352 00:25:12.180 --> 00:25:16.500 We'll talk more about this next week, but the last time Mickey appeared. 353 00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:18.779 We thought that Rose had been rather mean to him. 354 00:25:18.839 --> 00:25:25.140 And so getting them together to kind of patch things up a little bit, I think, was kind of a good idea. 355 00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:28.380 And it is just amazing to see him back. 356 00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:40.500 What I like is the fact that Mickey is seen to be completely competent and has managed to infiltrate this organisation, whereas Rose can only infiltrate for 5 seconds before she's caught. 357 00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:42.599 And that massive gun. 358 00:25:42.660 --> 00:25:44.160 Where was he hiding that? 359 00:25:44.220 --> 00:25:46.319 You really don't want to know. 360 00:25:46.619 --> 00:25:49.440 It's not a compact laser to last. 361 00:25:49.740 --> 00:25:54.180 He's actually a little bit dismissive of her too. 362 00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:55.980 He's in no way excited to see her. 363 00:25:56.099 --> 00:25:58.259 He calls her babe in this sort of dismissive way. 364 00:25:58.319 --> 00:26:00.599 And it's kind of like the tables have turned. 365 00:26:00.660 --> 00:26:09.779 He's sort of over her, or at least wants to look like he is, but he doesn't sort of fall into that subservient tin dog role immediately. 366 00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:17.579 He's got a job to do and he's clearly, you know, since we left him behind in sort of episode 5 or whenever it was, episode 6. 367 00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:18.900 With the other blonde. 368 00:26:18.900 --> 00:26:21.119 With the other blonde, more of whom laser. 369 00:26:21.180 --> 00:26:23.039 But only last week in recording, too. 370 00:26:23.460 --> 00:26:26.160 But I think that's so fantastic, I think. 371 00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:29.819 His role in this episode, Rose's role in this episode. 372 00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:31.859 Jackie's role in this episode are all wonderful. 373 00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:37.200 And the other person who I absolutely adore is Tracy Ann Cyberman, Yvonne Hartman. 374 00:26:37.259 --> 00:26:39.539 I mean, I think she's every Doctor Who Gay Boy's delight. 375 00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:43.380 I mean, she sashays handclaps and hair flicks away through this. 376 00:26:43.380 --> 00:26:44.039 Fabulous hair. 377 00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:44.579 You know? 378 00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:45.059 Really? 379 00:26:45.059 --> 00:26:46.740 Are we going to talk about the hair? 380 00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:52.740 My favourite moment is when is the confidential when David says to her she's been 15 hours in makeup? 381 00:26:53.700 --> 00:27:00.420 And, and, oh, one of the wake-up lady said 16, David, we didn't get a home over the weekend. 382 00:27:00.420 --> 00:27:02.940 And she still can't get a bloody hair. 383 00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:04.380 Oh, sorry, it's the driest thing. 384 00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:13.680 Billy's been out on a planet of the flying stingray vortisors and she still manages bounce and plasticity. 385 00:27:13.740 --> 00:27:17.099 And honestly, open, it's just a thicket. 386 00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:20.519 It's a single Lego. clipped onto a head. 387 00:27:20.579 --> 00:27:23.279 No, it's just really dry and rough. 388 00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:26.519 No, no, she obviously's just her own hair because she's 15 hours in makeup. 389 00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:30.960 She is incredible and I think we should talk about torchwood as well. 390 00:27:31.019 --> 00:27:36.299 So Torchwood has been occasionally name checked. 391 00:27:36.420 --> 00:27:38.460 Even since Bad Wolf. 392 00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:39.000 Yeah. 393 00:27:39.059 --> 00:27:40.019 You have a list? 394 00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:42.420 No, actually, I don't have I don't have a list. 395 00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:43.440 Sorry to disappoint you, listeners. 396 00:27:43.500 --> 00:27:47.940 So it has been, you know, name check from time to time, but not in a sort of massive way. 397 00:27:48.059 --> 00:27:51.059 It doesn't get... almost every story, but it's just subtly done. 398 00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:51.720 Yeah. 399 00:27:51.720 --> 00:27:57.240 It's even at the party in Rise of the Sidemen when Pete says how's Torchwood going, mate, something. 400 00:27:57.359 --> 00:27:58.140 Yeah, that's right. 401 00:27:58.259 --> 00:28:04.259 And there's a wonderful reference to Torchwood in Love and Monsters. 402 00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:12.000 I can't remember whether in that episode we mentioned that it has Bad Wolf Torchwood and Mr. Saxon all in the one episode. 403 00:28:12.059 --> 00:28:14.279 It's our 1st Mr Saxon reference as well. 404 00:28:14.339 --> 00:28:19.380 So Torch would sort of set up as an antagonist for the doctor, but it hasn't really been serving that purpose. 405 00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:23.940 But it's a very strange antagonist for the doctor, I think. 406 00:28:24.420 --> 00:28:26.400 Well, I quite like it. 407 00:28:26.460 --> 00:28:31.319 Like, I like the fact that they're trying to find the doctor, like using CCTV. 408 00:28:31.380 --> 00:28:37.619 The 1st time we have the ghost shift, the music that accompanies it is literally the torch would theme. 409 00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:38.460 Oh, yeah, it is too. 410 00:28:38.519 --> 00:28:44.039 And then, you know, they get taken and then we're walking around the base. 411 00:28:44.220 --> 00:28:49.500 I mean, I think it's a bit stupid having like the Egyptian mummy thing. 412 00:28:49.619 --> 00:28:50.819 I loved that. 413 00:28:50.819 --> 00:28:56.339 You could see that one of Sutek's little animated corpses is standing right next to the police box. 414 00:28:56.400 --> 00:28:58.500 A sarcophagus next to it. 415 00:28:59.099 --> 00:29:01.140 I mean, I liked it at the time. 416 00:29:01.140 --> 00:29:04.920 And I thought, well, didn't they burn the entire house down? 417 00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:07.380 So it wouldn't have been all charcoal? 418 00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:10.859 Maybe those things are not proof to, you know, maybe they're asbestos line? 419 00:29:10.920 --> 00:29:12.660 Yeah, it was a space sarcophagus. 420 00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:16.019 Okay, time vortex protected it. 421 00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:17.579 Okay, I stand corrected. 422 00:29:18.539 --> 00:29:23.460 I like the cat with a moustache and a big begging bowl and thinking what that's from. 423 00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:27.720 And what about the big giant CG thing? 424 00:29:27.779 --> 00:29:30.839 There's a giant CG spaceship. 425 00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:32.160 Enormous Webber barbeque. 426 00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:36.240 Is that a reference to the killer cats of Jiddensen? 427 00:29:36.299 --> 00:29:38.039 Oh, that's not real. 428 00:29:38.099 --> 00:29:44.339 But I do like to get the whole tour of Torchwood, and it's like, oh, happy day, and I'm a people person, like all of that stuff. 429 00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:48.720 Oh, yes, and I love when she says that because she's a monster and that's how you know she's a monster. 430 00:29:48.839 --> 00:29:50.819 Yeah, because of her fluent management. 431 00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:52.920 It's neoliberal proto-fashion. 432 00:29:52.920 --> 00:29:54.240 Jab a walkie man. 433 00:29:54.299 --> 00:29:57.480 Yeah, she's great in the torchwood audios. 434 00:29:57.539 --> 00:29:58.559 Oh really? 435 00:29:58.619 --> 00:29:59.400 finish is done. 436 00:29:59.460 --> 00:30:04.200 They've done a number of them set before the fall of torture. 437 00:30:10.500 --> 00:30:22.740 We did talk a little bit about fascism in the last cyberman to Pada, and so I think it's interesting that what we have here in Torchwood is explicitly imperialist. 438 00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:30.480 And there's one point where Jackie says, we don't have a British Empire, and her response, Tracy Ann Seidman, responds, not yet. 439 00:30:30.539 --> 00:30:40.740 And we observed in our tooth and claw episode that Torchwood still uses imperial tons, and she has to make that quite clear. 440 00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:44.039 We don't go metric in torchwood, like those terrible Europeans. 441 00:30:44.099 --> 00:30:47.160 And it just seems very strange. 442 00:30:47.220 --> 00:30:48.539 Let's talk Brexit, Richard. 443 00:30:48.599 --> 00:30:49.440 It does. 444 00:30:50.039 --> 00:30:54.359 It's exactly, the one knot I thought here was another commendators have said this. 445 00:30:54.420 --> 00:31:00.720 It's really precinent of Russell to get this. and others have, you know, the guardian and the independent, what's left of the independent. 446 00:31:00.779 --> 00:31:03.240 How will Britain manage without our own energy source? 447 00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:06.539 I think we actually need to go up and find some seaweed. 448 00:31:06.660 --> 00:31:14.039 And then, you know, if only Debbie Watling was still with us and could hurl a lungful at the North Sea and see what we get back. 449 00:31:14.099 --> 00:31:19.920 Well, I mean, if the doctor hadn't spent so much time in the 70s shutting down alternative energy projects. 450 00:31:20.819 --> 00:31:22.319 Thank you. 451 00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:31.019 A whole lot of eye patches distribute it to every fascist crypto dictator that might want to take over a power station. 452 00:31:31.079 --> 00:31:31.740 Then we might get that. 453 00:31:31.799 --> 00:31:37.259 But yeah, it's very, it's a very interesting nod to, well, Britain, if you want your empire back, you'll need a power source. 454 00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:37.619 Yeah. 455 00:31:37.619 --> 00:31:46.440 Holland had its, all the Netherlands had their, the nether regions, as Storm French has, has their, their own energy source for many years, just why they were able to, you know, pull an empire. 456 00:31:46.500 --> 00:31:48.059 Well, keep a welfare state going. 457 00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:51.119 The Scandwegians will do clever things. 458 00:31:51.180 --> 00:31:54.420 But we have, yeah, we're being still part of the British Empire. 459 00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:57.299 I think it's just us and August Bank holiday Island now, isn't it? 460 00:31:57.359 --> 00:32:01.200 Maybe he's just tapping into the late motif at the time. 461 00:32:01.259 --> 00:32:04.500 He's very good at knowing how people are feeling. 462 00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:07.079 That's why his productions, all his TV shows. 463 00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:08.220 He's got a new one coming up. 464 00:32:08.279 --> 00:32:08.819 Yeah, yeah. 465 00:32:08.819 --> 00:32:10.440 With that bloke with the ears. 466 00:32:10.500 --> 00:32:13.980 He can't stop sketching, clean to that up. 467 00:32:14.460 --> 00:32:17.880 I mean, there's always been U-Kip and things in Britain. 468 00:32:17.940 --> 00:32:18.599 There has always been. 469 00:32:18.839 --> 00:32:21.960 We always had Mosley and we always had, you know, the Mitford sisters. 470 00:32:22.019 --> 00:32:23.339 Yeah, exactly. 471 00:32:23.400 --> 00:32:28.259 So there has always been that sort of under current of sort of British fascism. 472 00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:31.680 And so here that's the doctor's enemy. 473 00:32:31.740 --> 00:32:51.839 You know, we've talked about years ago about how Bob Holmes makes bureaucrats and humourless, rule bound, hide bound people are the doctor's enemy, but Russell has made the doctor's enemy, that kind of, you know, strain of British imperialism. 474 00:32:51.900 --> 00:32:56.460 It's a lovely nod back to Mac Hulk and Bob Holmes, isn't it? 475 00:32:56.519 --> 00:32:59.099 Which we've kind of lost over the years. 476 00:32:59.160 --> 00:33:13.859 Well, I think Russell's Doctor Who is, you know, explicitly political in a way that Moffat's is not so much and in a way that Chibnol in his 1st year, he seems to have really very, definitely trying to avoid. 477 00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:16.859 But it is very strange. 478 00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:26.940 And I do love the contrast between Tracy Ann's incredibly genial manner and her response to the doctor's question, so am I your prisoner then? 479 00:33:27.059 --> 00:33:29.640 And she just says, well, yes, you are. 480 00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:36.539 So it's a great sort of Doctor Who villain in the sense that it's not a slavering moustache twirling villain. 481 00:33:36.599 --> 00:33:38.339 She's a super genial management type. 482 00:33:38.460 --> 00:33:48.480 Look, if this had been set back in the 1970s, she would have been a he and she would have been like Mr. Chin or something like that, you know, um... 483 00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:54.599 Although unless we've got Susan Gemma sitting in her leather knickers out, you know, the BBC board, you know, Barry Letts have been allowed to do that. 484 00:33:54.599 --> 00:33:57.420 But this also predicates season 11. 485 00:33:57.660 --> 00:33:59.579 I believe that's what we've just been through, haven't we? 486 00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:00.660 I shouldn't say that. 487 00:34:00.660 --> 00:34:02.640 Series 11, we've just enjoyed. 488 00:34:02.700 --> 00:34:06.960 Chibnall's response, you might want to say, is Graham Williams' response. 489 00:34:07.019 --> 00:34:24.719 I'll just say quickly, is that we respond by small acts of kindness, with the overweening and overbearing threat that it cannot be controlled, which is, you want, if you want to call it, free wheeling, late stage capitalism or neoliberals, gone mad or whatever it is you want to call it. 490 00:34:24.780 --> 00:34:37.500 But it actually is nicely indicated in this story, is that, you know, as living in this stage of capitalism that you have to buy the new things, and if you don't keep up, you're left behind, and you're less of a citizen. 491 00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:39.900 Because we're not citizens anymore, are we? 492 00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:40.559 We're customers. 493 00:34:40.679 --> 00:34:43.440 And boarding any state rail. 494 00:34:43.500 --> 00:34:45.539 You'll know that straight off. 495 00:34:45.719 --> 00:34:52.739 It's really amazing how foreshadowing this is. 13 stop. 496 00:34:52.860 --> 00:34:53.099 Stop it. 497 00:34:53.159 --> 00:34:53.880 How many years later? 498 00:34:53.940 --> 00:34:55.139 I don't know how many years. 499 00:34:55.199 --> 00:35:02.760 This is like sitting, watching Sarah Jane leave to the point where an unearthly child started for us watching this now. 500 00:35:02.820 --> 00:35:06.599 Oh, Lordy, as to when it was on our television sets in 2006. 501 00:35:06.780 --> 00:35:08.400 That's horrendous dot. 502 00:35:08.460 --> 00:35:11.639 The 1st and 8th of July 2006. 503 00:35:11.880 --> 00:35:13.800 So nearly 13 years ago. 504 00:35:13.860 --> 00:35:14.579 Gosh. 505 00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:22.440 But to have these things discussed in an episode 13 years ago, which is so relevant now, is amazing. 506 00:35:22.500 --> 00:35:30.119 It harks back to things like the Green Death in the Pertury era where those things weren't really to the forefront at that time. 507 00:35:30.179 --> 00:35:32.340 Well, they were strongly discussed at the time. 508 00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:35.579 We just all got over it quickly when Neoliberalism took on. 509 00:35:35.699 --> 00:35:36.119 Yeah. 510 00:35:40.679 --> 00:35:46.079 Dave Tennant in this episode wears some 3D glasses throughout. 511 00:35:46.139 --> 00:35:53.699 And when I 1st watched this, I could have just gone up to him and ripped those things off his face and just thrown them in the bin and go, what are you doing? 512 00:35:53.820 --> 00:35:55.380 It is super slappable, isn't it? 513 00:35:55.440 --> 00:35:59.760 No, that what little children can be a part of the show because everyone's got a pair. 514 00:35:59.820 --> 00:36:01.320 But this time through. 515 00:36:01.380 --> 00:36:06.539 I actually was quite amused by the whole thing and he keeps coming back to it and keeps having them. 516 00:36:06.599 --> 00:36:07.380 I actually quite liked it. 517 00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:20.099 It's the same reason why Moffatt puts Capoldi and the Ray-Bans. you can make something normal or every day or gettable by the audience. 518 00:36:20.159 --> 00:36:21.719 And it's actually a consumer. 519 00:36:21.780 --> 00:36:23.519 He's the point of difference. 520 00:36:23.579 --> 00:36:24.059 Thank you. 521 00:36:24.119 --> 00:36:25.619 He's the point of difference in the plot. 522 00:36:25.679 --> 00:36:27.179 Everyone else has got high tech. 523 00:36:27.239 --> 00:36:31.260 The doctor gets something out of a comic book and still manages to defeat the threat. 524 00:36:31.320 --> 00:36:36.900 It also kind of works with his sort of slightly 50-ish hipster kind of look. 525 00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:42.119 You know, those 3D glasses, the green and red ones. 526 00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:43.860 Big deal in the 50s. 527 00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:45.300 Yeah, for 3D movies. 528 00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:47.340 And so it fits his look. 529 00:36:47.400 --> 00:36:49.320 I think really well. 530 00:36:49.380 --> 00:36:56.760 I think Tennant has, I'm going to do a my favourite tenant moment and my least favourite tenant moment of the episode. 531 00:36:57.360 --> 00:37:13.079 My favourite tenant moment is where he makes Yvonne call off the ghost shift by just sitting in a chair staring at her and kind of half smiling and just his confidence. 532 00:37:13.139 --> 00:37:15.059 Like, that is a great doctor moment. 533 00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:16.199 Wonderful, wonderful. 534 00:37:16.260 --> 00:37:17.039 Had they written down, yes. 535 00:37:17.099 --> 00:37:18.360 Yeah, least favourite moment. 536 00:37:18.420 --> 00:37:21.179 It's who you're going to call Ghostbusters. 537 00:37:21.239 --> 00:37:24.059 I just think that is bum clenchingly embarrassing. 538 00:37:24.119 --> 00:37:28.260 It's really... 539 00:37:28.260 --> 00:37:30.059 I'm just sort of, yes, okay. 540 00:37:30.119 --> 00:37:31.380 It's very self-conscious, yes. 541 00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:32.880 It's so bad. 542 00:37:32.940 --> 00:37:34.199 It's really bad. 543 00:37:34.260 --> 00:37:35.940 But again, little fans would love that. 544 00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:39.239 But I mean, is Ghostbusters a living reference in 20 years? 545 00:37:39.300 --> 00:37:40.679 No, it's 1980, what? 546 00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:45.239 I guess the thing is here, when I was looking at David's performance in this. 547 00:37:45.300 --> 00:37:47.039 I knew that this had been recorded earlier in the season. 548 00:37:47.099 --> 00:37:56.519 So I was quite interested to see whether or not there's still traits of him finding his way in the role and not being perhaps the stereotype that we think that he is. 549 00:37:56.579 --> 00:38:08.099 And I think there are moments in this episode where he actually is more subtle than what comes ahead and there's times where I think, oh, it's not quite the David Tennant that I remember. 550 00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:13.619 And it's interesting coming at this point when you view it in the season having been through the last few episodes. 551 00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:19.380 Again, for the most part, his performance in this is surprisingly enjoyable. 552 00:38:19.440 --> 00:38:23.460 I know that we've talked a bit about how annoying we think he is. 553 00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:28.019 But then when you come back to actually watch him, I actually find him quite hypnotic. 554 00:38:28.079 --> 00:38:33.480 It's a bit like perch we in that, you know, a lot of fans of a certain age will be quite critical. 555 00:38:33.539 --> 00:38:37.260 But then you actually go back and watch him, you actually sit there enjoying the performance. 556 00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:39.960 And I really enjoyed this episode. 557 00:38:40.019 --> 00:38:47.760 I mean, I don't know where we're at with it, but I came out of this liking it more than I had previously liked it. 558 00:38:47.820 --> 00:38:54.960 And that's been the case for most of this season is that virtually every episode that I've watched, I've either liked the same or more. 559 00:38:55.019 --> 00:38:59.760 And I'm at 9 out of 10 for this episode, which I'm... 560 00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:01.199 Which is reeling. 561 00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:06.840 I'm sure that you're running a shop because you're saying like, so the plot is so thin on the ground, but I just... 562 00:39:06.840 --> 00:39:08.760 It doesn't matter because you've got direction and performance. 563 00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:14.099 And I just enjoyed just watching it. really enjoyed the lines, the performances. 564 00:39:14.159 --> 00:39:16.980 Isn't it a lovely to talk about presaging. 565 00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:21.960 It's a lovely thing to say, you don't need to over egg the plot, Stephen. 566 00:39:22.019 --> 00:39:29.760 You can just do a very simple, elegant story and let the director, and then as Graham Harper says, in his interviews. 567 00:39:29.820 --> 00:39:35.639 Then I just stop, leave the cameras static and let the artists do what they've been working on for 3 weeks. 568 00:39:35.699 --> 00:39:38.340 And that's when we all start tearing up. 569 00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:43.559 And it's that gorgeous juxtaposition of really beautifully edited crisp direction. 570 00:39:43.619 --> 00:39:52.019 And I am going to, I was going to mention some of the, some of the Socarol Reed and David Lean thumbs, because there's a lot of British army stuff in this. 571 00:39:52.019 --> 00:39:53.639 Then I thought, of course, it's Graham Harper. 572 00:39:53.699 --> 00:39:54.539 He grew up with those films. 573 00:39:54.599 --> 00:39:57.960 He knows how to array soldiers for the camera. 574 00:39:58.019 --> 00:40:04.800 It's just like all the life and death of Colonel Blimp is a great film that does use almost the same camera angles for their soldiers. 575 00:40:04.860 --> 00:40:08.280 So, yeah, you've got all of that lovely stuff there. 576 00:40:08.340 --> 00:40:10.980 And then you've got these little moments where, no, I'll just stop now. 577 00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:12.119 Billy's doing her thing now. 578 00:40:12.179 --> 00:40:13.380 David's doing his thing now. 579 00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:17.280 I just love the way in which when the ghosts finally do come through. 580 00:40:17.340 --> 00:40:20.400 They suddenly take that formation as soldiers. 581 00:40:20.460 --> 00:40:21.119 Yeah. 582 00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:22.920 And it's just lovely little touches. 583 00:40:23.099 --> 00:40:36.239 And then as we head into the cliffhanger or the intercutting between what's happening with the doctor, what's happening with Rose down in the sphere room and the tension is building and, you know, you're getting that parallel story between them, like the severe is not ours. 584 00:40:36.300 --> 00:40:39.539 They came through 1st and that sort of stuff as they're discovering that down there. 585 00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:46.139 I just love that device where you intercut between people having conversations and finding that out at the same time. 586 00:40:46.199 --> 00:40:50.579 And the 2 plots kind of reach their climax at exactly the same moment. 587 00:40:50.639 --> 00:41:06.659 In fact, it's 3 plots because we get all those shots of the ghosts turning into cybermen, you know, at the power estate and uh, in Paris, I think, and uh, outside the Taj Mahal and sort of news reports. 588 00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:11.039 We get the guy from the pirate planet warning us to stay in our home. 589 00:41:11.099 --> 00:41:12.599 Louise Jameson's husband. 590 00:41:12.659 --> 00:41:13.199 Yes. 591 00:41:13.260 --> 00:41:13.619 Yes. 592 00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:20.519 But at the time, it may have been an ex at that time. 593 00:41:21.480 --> 00:41:23.039 He's such a great actor in that, isn't he? 594 00:41:23.159 --> 00:41:24.360 Well, he gets killed. 595 00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:29.400 But like that stuff is tremendous. 596 00:41:29.460 --> 00:41:36.719 And I think the best thing about it, we're being told to stay in our homes and the cybermen are in our homes. 597 00:41:36.780 --> 00:41:42.360 So, you know, they escape up the stairs from the Cyberman only to find there's a Cyberman there. 598 00:41:42.420 --> 00:41:48.659 And one of the things that I miss a lot, these massive scale scenes. 599 00:41:48.719 --> 00:41:56.880 So you get a family, you know, who have nothing to do with the plot, but are just there to illustrate... 600 00:41:56.940 --> 00:41:58.320 Yeah, it's the inversion of the camera. 601 00:41:58.380 --> 00:41:58.679 Yeah. 602 00:41:58.739 --> 00:41:59.340 Yeah, yeah. 603 00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:00.239 They're us watching it. 604 00:42:00.300 --> 00:42:02.579 They're Eric and Esa for sort of 2006. 605 00:42:03.059 --> 00:42:07.019 So we see the scale of what the cybermen have done. 606 00:42:07.139 --> 00:42:12.179 And we haven't really had that before. 607 00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:23.280 The only classic series, things that I can think of are The Invasion, where, you know, everyone's out and Cybern are marching through the streets and clearly this owes a lot to that. 608 00:42:23.340 --> 00:42:28.079 And invasion of the dinosaurs, I guess, when we evacuate London. 609 00:42:28.139 --> 00:42:29.880 But we don't really see that. 610 00:42:29.940 --> 00:42:36.360 Whereas here we see, you know, it's another big public invasion like the Slovene last year. 611 00:42:36.420 --> 00:42:38.579 And I just adore it. 612 00:42:38.639 --> 00:42:43.079 It's something new that Russell's brought to the program and I'm absolutely on board with it. 613 00:42:43.139 --> 00:42:44.639 Yeah, no, it's great. 614 00:42:44.699 --> 00:42:47.039 I mean, I love the fact that they actually state we are the cyberman. 615 00:42:47.159 --> 00:42:48.239 I mean, the fanboy in me. 616 00:42:48.300 --> 00:42:50.039 They have to say it because I didn't really say that. 617 00:42:50.099 --> 00:42:51.960 I don't think in the previous 2 episodes. 618 00:42:52.019 --> 00:42:58.139 Then you've got Mickey Smith, defender, defending the earth, the earth, like sort of the spinoff that never happened for Rose. 619 00:42:58.199 --> 00:43:02.219 And, you know, the sphere is not our own and then you've got that music rising. 620 00:43:02.280 --> 00:43:05.400 As the Daleks come out of that. 621 00:43:05.460 --> 00:43:09.239 I think the Dalek music kicks in just before the Daleks appear. 622 00:43:09.300 --> 00:43:24.960 So, um, if you know your music cues, uh, you'll know what it is and presumably some of the audience would have got a sort of unidentifiable Dalek related sensation at that moment without really realising why Dalek tingle. 623 00:43:26.699 --> 00:43:28.199 Tag. 624 00:43:28.380 --> 00:43:36.599 But I like the Wayne Witch, like you've got the cyberman threat and the threat of the world's collapsing, but then you up the ante with the Daleks. 625 00:43:36.659 --> 00:43:43.380 You know, had it been the cyber controller coming out in his chair. the same sort of impact at all. 626 00:43:43.500 --> 00:43:47.400 It's like he references the cyber king in this, doesn't he? 627 00:43:47.460 --> 00:43:49.079 Yeah, there is a little nice. 628 00:43:49.139 --> 00:43:50.579 Yeah, nice that these time things through as well. 629 00:43:50.639 --> 00:43:53.940 Oh, what about the cyber thing from Tobias Vaughan's office? 630 00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:55.860 Or the one from Wheeling Space. 631 00:43:55.860 --> 00:43:59.159 The decorative wall feature. in the cupboard. 632 00:43:59.219 --> 00:44:02.219 From Fear Hurst slash the invasion. 633 00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:02.460 Yes. 634 00:44:02.519 --> 00:44:04.260 See, I've never found the cybermen. 635 00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:07.139 That threatening compared to the Daleks. 636 00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:11.099 The only time I've ever been more sort of afraid of them was in Revenge of the Sidemen. 637 00:44:11.159 --> 00:44:11.519 I agree. 638 00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:16.199 When you've got the cyber mats that were poisoning everybody, and that sort of freaked me out. 639 00:44:16.260 --> 00:44:23.159 So to have something here that is even more of a threat, going into the cliffhanger is just tremendous. 640 00:44:23.159 --> 00:44:28.860 And you'd sort of, your senses are overloaded between all of these things and also knowing that Rose could potentially die. 641 00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:48.659 And then you've got the 2nd cliffhanger, which is the next time on Doctor Who, straight following it, where, again, he's already misdirecting us with, oh, this is a story of how I died, but then in the way that next time it's cut together, you actually believe that the Cyberman and the Daleks are going to be working together, it's very very clever. 642 00:45:13.800 --> 00:45:19.860 Well, dear listener, those darlets aren't going to run away from themselves, so it's time for us to leg it. 643 00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:23.519 We'll be back next week, ready to moisten up for doomsday. 644 00:45:24.239 --> 00:45:31.079 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us at flightthroughentirety.com. 645 00:45:31.139 --> 00:45:34.739 Flight through entirety on Facebook and at FT podcast on Twitter. 646 00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:49.739 You can also find our Series 11 Flashcast, Jody Interterra, at Jody Interterra.com, and at Jody Interterra on Twitter, and our James Bond commentary podcast, Bondfinger at bondfinger.com, at bondfinger on Facebook, and at bondfingercast on Twitter. 647 00:45:49.800 --> 00:45:58.619 Until next time, please make sure you always insert your AirPods firmly, but gently, on no account should they be shoved roughly into your brain. 648 00:45:58.679 --> 00:46:01.079 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 649 00:46:01.260 --> 00:46:02.880 See you soon. 650 00:46:02.940 --> 00:46:03.599 Thank you. 651 00:46:06.900 --> 00:46:16.320 That was Flight Through Entirety, starting Todd B, it'll be Nathan Bodley, James Selwood and Richard Stone, theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings Performance by Jane Allberg. 652 00:46:16.380 --> 00:46:22.860 This episode, Grandad Prentice Hancock, was recorded on the 28th of April 2019 and released on the 2nd of June. 653 00:46:26.340 --> 00:46:33.360 Of course, the Australian version of Torch, what is called Torch, Walker, and is mostly concerned with spiders, land, and white people. 654 00:46:33.420 --> 00:46:38.940 If interested, contact our new assistant minister for Multicultural Affairs, Parliament House, Canberra. 655 00:46:39.960 --> 00:46:45.659 If I say the words you know one more time, kill me today, because I keep doing it. 656 00:46:45.719 --> 00:46:47.099 I edit a lot of them out. 657 00:46:47.159 --> 00:46:48.780 I'm much worse than you. 658 00:46:48.840 --> 00:46:52.860 The floor is littered with me saying, you know, over and over again. 659 00:46:52.920 --> 00:46:54.780 The last episode I was in. 660 00:46:54.840 --> 00:46:55.619 That all I kept saying. 661 00:46:55.679 --> 00:46:59.280 I kept hearing it and going, oh, Nathan, you just must want to just destroy me. 662 00:46:59.340 --> 00:47:02.760 No, no, that actually is a nice tag with you. 663 00:47:02.820 --> 00:47:04.739 You're going to die for the 1st bit. 664 00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:09.420 Nathan probably recognises the waveform. 665 00:47:09.480 --> 00:47:11.219 Okay, before you know now. 666 00:47:11.760 --> 00:47:14.940 But when the doctor actually like...