WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 12:50:21

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast that has always done its duty by Queen

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and Country.

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And look how well that's turned out.

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I'm Nathan.

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James.

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I'm Todd.

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And this is the last story I'll ever tell.

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The last story I'll ever tell about leaving FTE podcast.

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The last story I'll ever tell about leaving FTE podcast to go to

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the toilet between recording this episode in the last episode.

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So what's new with you, Richard?

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I'm Todd Shtick for this.

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Well, the surprise Daleks have taken a week to emerge from their

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sphere, but they're ready to join the cyberman in some trash

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talking and killing random people in bus cues.

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You still in there?

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But after 28 seasons of Doctor Who, we're confident that

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everything will be just fine.

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After all, this is an episode called Doomsday.

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He does go back to Round the Horn.

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We've been practising this story for something like 60 years now.

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It's all going to end, everything's falling apart, but no, we'll

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have a sing along and a bit of a panto at the end, and we'll all

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be fine, except someone has to die.

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I'm sorry, Todd, it's all time.

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I take it you don't particularly like this episode.

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No, no, we just I'm harking on from what we were saying last week

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about the parallels to the present, really.

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Go on.

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I don't know if I've told this story before, but we were watching

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the series in a bar at the Hilton Hotel in Sydney.

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Do you remember this, James?

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You were probably organising it.

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It wouldn't been to the Hilton.

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It would have been at...

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It was the Men's Hotel.

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It was the Menzies Hotel.

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You were quite right.

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The Men's Hotel.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, no, that would have been right, yeah.

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And I had a way of getting the episodes.

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I can't imagine what it was.

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And I had agreed to bring the episode with me.

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And I was expecting it to be a tear jerker, I think.

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And so I thought, well, I don't want to cry in front of all of

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these sweaty fan boys, so I'll watch it before and then bring it

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and watch it again in public with everyone.

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And of course, I balled my eyes out. when I watched it the 1st

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time and then again, you know, miaow hours later, I was like a

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giant snivelling mess in front of everyone at the at the bar.

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I think I was hiding behind the merchandise. to try trying to

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cover my shade.

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This time when I watched it, the moment that I really started

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crying was Jackie and Pete meeting up.

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You know, about halfway through the episode.

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There's about 20 minutes to go, and Jackie and Pete, both of whom

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have lost their parallel universe counterpart, husband and wife

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meet up, and it's such a great scene because it's super rustly.

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It's so rustly.

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How rich.

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That's right.

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How very.

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I don't care about that.

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But there's also... anyone else.

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She says there was never anyone else, and you get a little shot of

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the doctor and Mikey kind of, they're not rolling their eyes.

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They do it a little bit more subtly than I remember.

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It's more subtle than I recall, too.

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Yeah, because I remember a panto boomtish.

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But it's lovely.

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It's so lovely.

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And, and, you know, Peter's already kind of rejected Rose as his

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daughter at the end of the age of steel, and he goes to reject

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Jackie as his wife, and he's already said to the doctor before in

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the episode, she's not my wife, and he starts to do it again, but

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he can't sustain it.

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They just run into each other's arms and kiss.

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And I think it is so beautiful.

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And I think this episode has, it's our 1st companion departure, you

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know, in the new series and they had to get it right.

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And I think they do.

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Well, in that moment, they do.

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You're not happy with the end?

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No, I'm talking about the fact that, dear Jackie, who is our

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companion?

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departing with a love story.

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Like Joe Grant?

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Yeah, right?

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So that's absolutely beautiful.

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And I think it's just amazing how it's not the real Pete and it's

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for him the real Jackie, but we accept it and it's all going to be

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fantastic for them and it's turned out really well after you think

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that she could be potentially under a lot of threat coming with

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the cybermen and having to, you know, I just love the fact when

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the doctor phones are aware, are you?

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Like a staircase and what do you see like a fire extinguisher?

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Like, it's so Jackie. a door Camille in this.

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And I just think it's a fantastic departure despite the fact that

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it's not, they don't have the history between them.

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There's a history between them in their own worlds, if you know

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what I mean.

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It's also wonderful that, yeah, like, who would have thought that

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she would have got that plot line and that that send off 2 seasons

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ago, that...

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No, James, you're quite right.

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You couldn't have seen it coming.

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From a joke character making, making comments about, oh, there's a

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strange man in my bedroom. anything could happen to, to, to this.

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This is fantastic. what they've done with that character.

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It's so beautiful.

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It's so beautiful.

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And I think I mentioned in one of the previous episodes that I

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just had a stone cold dead heart when it comes to the Sarah Jane

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Smith episode, if you record back to that.

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And in this, I can't recall if I really was crying when Rose was

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leaving.

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I can't remember if I was.

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And even now, I don't cry at that.

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It's this section with Jackie is the thing that gets me most

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upset.

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When I was a kid, we've talked about this before, Brandon said

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that he used to cry when the doctor regenerated, because you would

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never see the doctor again.

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But for me, it was kind of exciting and it was still the doctor.

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Oh, I did see the back of all of them, yeah.

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But I did...

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Richard, I agree with you.

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I didn't cry at any of those generations.

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I never had that because the 1st Doctor Who story I ever watched

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was the 5 Doctors.

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You knew that they'd be back.

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Especially the 1st doctor.

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Yeah.

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But in his various guys.

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Yes, wearing different faces.

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But I used to get upset when the companions left and I remember

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even, you know, in invasion of time being heartbroken that Leela

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was going.

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Oh, yeah.

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Yeah, and my 1st companion departure, I think, was Sarah Jane

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Smith.

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Oh, absolutely heartbreaking.

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I remember going to bed and dreaming that it didn't happen and

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trying to come up with a new story that she'd come back in the

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next story.

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Like, that's how upset I was.

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I actually rage quit Doctor Who at the end of season 19 because

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the doctor had left Tegan behind at Heathrow Airport and I didn't

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tune in for Arc of Infinity because I was so cross.

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And it turned out she was back.

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What a stupid fool.

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You are.

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Well, I did miss Arc of Infinity.

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So there was a silver lining.

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Actually, no, I stand correct, Nathan, you were a very clever

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man.

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But here, what I think has to happen when the doctor leaves you.

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And we've said this before, that he has to leave you better than

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how he found you.

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So even though this is sort of the heartbreaking into a series

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long love story, he leaves Rose with her family now intact, that

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big missing piece of her family, her father's death when she was

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just a baby.

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The doctor kind of inadvertently fixes that.

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And Jackie, you know, in that little flat being lonely, not having

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much money.

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That gets fixed as well.

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And we get to see it too.

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Like the genius of having that scene, um, the Norway scene at the

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end, is we get to see that they're all together in a family.

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Even Mickey is living with them.

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And Jackie is still wearing sort of powder pink, but it's sort of

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glamorous powder pink rather than sort of powder pink active

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wear.

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It reminds me of Ramana's outfit from Destiny of the Daleks.

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It's lovely, isn't it?

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She looks great.

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And so the doctor leaves her in a parallel universe in a changed

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world where she has a role to play sort of fighting the forces of

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evil, but where she has an intact family.

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And I think that it's the best of the 3 companion departures.

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Oh, maybe it's the best of the 3 companion departures that Russell

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gets to do.

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Well, that's a big call because I would not have gone there with

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that at all.

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I think she's an ungrateful cow.

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She's got all of these things that you've just mentioned and all

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she can do is blub on about herself and her love life.

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Get over it, honey.

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You've got all these great things and you've had this time with

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the doctor move on.

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Oh, that's very Barbara Streisand.

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Sorry, I just got to, that just came to me.

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I didn't think I was going actually say it like that.

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Okay, I'm being overdramatic.

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Like, I think it actually is a really good departure in a sense

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that now when you are with the doctor.

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You never, ever want to leave and it's the best thing ever.

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And we're not going to kill you off.

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So how are we going to get around it?

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So that was Streisand talking about leaving Netherland when she

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talked about the young people who had been brought up by Mr

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Jackson. get over yourselves.

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You got everything.

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We're lampshading.

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However, however, in the episode.

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It's fine. true.

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However, Richard's just going diverting for a moment.

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To the beginning of the episode.

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Rose confronts the Daleks and she talks about how she put the time

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vortex into the emperor and how...

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And it goes...

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What a badass she is.

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But all I, every time I watch that scene, all I can see is Billy

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Piper's big teeth.

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And it just, I'm just thinking, oh, please.

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Why do you think it's so terrifying?

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And they aren't even her biggest teeth.

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They're not so bigger still.

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Well, spoiler alert people.

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Yeah, just come back for the end of series four.

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I think that's a really big call to say this is the best command

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departure because I would argue that that next season would have

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the best companion departure.

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It is a very good companion departure next season where we'll get

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onto that.

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There is a problem at the heart of the show, I think, now that the

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doctor can control the TARDIS and that we see him coming back to

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Earth all the time.

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And so there is no reason why she should ever leave.

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She wants to stay.

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We have that moment at the beginning of last week's episode where

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Jackie imagines rose on a planet somewhere.

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Some nameless woman.

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Yeah, in the market. completely changed.

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She's not Rose Tyler.

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Yeah.

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Some old bent.

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She does get to be Rose Tyler at the end.

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She gets to stay Rose Tyler.

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She sees her as Barbara wins it, doesn't it?

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Rose Tyler Earth defence.

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Well, she gets to be a better version of herself and having a

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better life and she doesn't get to travel with the doctor, but the

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payoff is, you know, like he doesn't leave her tragic and broken.

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He leaves her with a family who love her.

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And again, maybe at the end, the moment that I tear up his Camille

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running to her, you know, because she knows what Rose has lost.

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I just think that is so beautiful and so she's going to be okay.

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Agreed.

253
00:12:35.340 --> 00:12:36.600
Totally agree.

254
00:12:36.659 --> 00:12:41.220
Billy Piper over these 2 seasons is just phenomenal.

255
00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:44.460
And in all seriousness, I just think she's a tremendous actress

256
00:12:44.460 --> 00:12:47.519
and she sells all of that stuff at the end, leaving the doctor

257
00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:49.200
with the tears.

258
00:12:49.259 --> 00:12:52.799
It is, I think, an extraordinary performance in all serious.

259
00:12:52.860 --> 00:12:54.120
That's the reason it's still here.

260
00:12:54.179 --> 00:12:55.799
Yeah, I think so.

261
00:12:55.860 --> 00:12:57.360
I absolutely think so.

262
00:12:57.419 --> 00:12:59.700
She's the Barbara of our generation.

263
00:12:59.759 --> 00:13:02.039
No one's going to say she's Sarah Jane Smith, but yes, you're

264
00:13:02.039 --> 00:13:02.220
right.

265
00:13:02.279 --> 00:13:06.659
She is that glue at the beginning of the series that people really

266
00:13:06.659 --> 00:13:07.620
turned in full.

267
00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:09.000
I think it's extraordinary.

268
00:13:09.059 --> 00:13:13.320
And I do think that it was brave of Russell and Wright of Russell

269
00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:17.159
to give her more sort of personal characteristics than just shop

270
00:13:17.159 --> 00:13:18.960
girl who travels with the doctor.

271
00:13:19.019 --> 00:13:25.320
And we've been making fun of Rose for being a selfish cow. an

272
00:13:25.320 --> 00:13:29.879
ungrateful cow for quite a few episodes now, but that was great.

273
00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:32.580
You know, she's just a flawed person.

274
00:13:32.580 --> 00:13:35.100
And she's capable of great kindness.

275
00:13:35.220 --> 00:13:38.460
There are lots and lots of moments where she steps forward to

276
00:13:38.460 --> 00:13:41.399
comfort someone who is in distress.

277
00:13:41.879 --> 00:13:44.039
She is basically supposed to be a teenager.

278
00:13:44.100 --> 00:13:46.320
Yeah, in her early 20s.

279
00:13:46.379 --> 00:13:50.100
Yeah, and that's true to a character to the character of someone

280
00:13:50.100 --> 00:13:55.980
of that age that they do focus on themselves a lot more than, say

281
00:13:55.980 --> 00:14:00.600
a character like Donna later who has a lot more going on.

282
00:14:00.659 --> 00:14:05.220
I think too, there is that the kind of love affair that you have

283
00:14:05.220 --> 00:14:10.259
in your 20s, you know, which is all consuming and nothing really

284
00:14:10.259 --> 00:14:14.519
exists outside it and she really has that with the doctor.

285
00:14:14.580 --> 00:14:17.820
We've had quite a bit of Shakespeare in this, haven't we, from

286
00:14:17.820 --> 00:14:20.940
Romeo and Juliet, which is the romance you're talking about to

287
00:14:20.940 --> 00:14:26.759
Ludic doing is Richard the 3rd stopping, but stuck in a bath

288
00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:27.179
chair.

289
00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:28.259
Yeah.

290
00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:32.820
There's quite some classical themes in this story too, aren't

291
00:14:32.820 --> 00:14:33.000
there?

292
00:14:33.059 --> 00:14:35.940
The grand parking.

293
00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:39.960
Yeah, in fact, you know, we've gone straight to This is our 1st

294
00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:43.019
topic without actually really discussing much of the plot and part

295
00:14:43.019 --> 00:14:44.279
of the reason is there isn't.

296
00:14:44.279 --> 00:14:45.600
There really is much of a plot.

297
00:14:45.659 --> 00:14:47.879
Because there's even less than there was last week and there

298
00:14:47.879 --> 00:14:48.419
doesn't need to be.

299
00:14:48.419 --> 00:14:48.960
Exactly.

300
00:14:49.019 --> 00:14:51.059
It is, in fact, a character driven piece.

301
00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:51.840
It's about interaction.

302
00:14:51.899 --> 00:14:56.100
And her reaction at Jackie and Pete.

303
00:14:56.159 --> 00:15:02.159
Their conversation is that one shot of rose in the middle of that

304
00:15:02.159 --> 00:15:02.700
conversation.

305
00:15:02.759 --> 00:15:03.360
She cross?

306
00:15:03.419 --> 00:15:07.559
No, no, no, where she's actually like, just the look that Billy

307
00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:12.240
gives and possibly the way it's been directed by Graham Harper.

308
00:15:12.299 --> 00:15:14.519
It's just a beautiful moment that she wants her parents to get

309
00:15:14.519 --> 00:15:15.240
back together.

310
00:15:15.299 --> 00:15:16.860
And you're quite right.

311
00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:19.200
Her departure, I think, is beautifully handled.

312
00:15:19.259 --> 00:15:22.379
Jackie's departure is beautifully handled, and the other person

313
00:15:22.379 --> 00:15:27.000
departing, of course, is Mickey, and it's just so telling the

314
00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:28.139
growth in that character.

315
00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:31.320
I just love the fact that when the Daleks say the female's

316
00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:34.860
heartbeat has increased and he just says, oh, yeah, telling me

317
00:15:34.860 --> 00:15:35.279
about it.

318
00:15:35.340 --> 00:15:38.100
It's just wickedly wonderful.

319
00:15:38.159 --> 00:15:39.659
Like he's just so good in this.

320
00:15:39.779 --> 00:15:44.580
She tells him too that he's the bravest man she's ever met and

321
00:15:44.580 --> 00:15:47.460
he's gone from being, you know, like pissing himself at being

322
00:15:47.460 --> 00:15:50.759
captured by the autons in the very 1st episode.

323
00:15:50.820 --> 00:15:53.100
It's it's wonderful.

324
00:15:53.159 --> 00:15:54.840
I really, really like that.

325
00:15:54.899 --> 00:15:59.340
And I sort of alluded to it last week where Rose and Mickey get

326
00:15:59.340 --> 00:16:01.379
the chance to reconcile and we see them.

327
00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:04.620
I don't think they're a couple at the end at all.

328
00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:06.480
No, then I don't feel that either.

329
00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:08.340
Eventually he ends up with Martha Jones.

330
00:16:08.820 --> 00:16:13.379
Yeah, but they're they're living in that big giant house with mum

331
00:16:13.379 --> 00:16:15.480
and dad, and I think that that is really lovely.

332
00:16:15.539 --> 00:16:16.860
But they're equals.

333
00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:20.399
He's not the puppy dog or her little thing to look after.

334
00:16:20.460 --> 00:16:23.340
He is as good as she is.

335
00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:27.899
And when he goes to get that gun, the whole dalek situation, and

336
00:16:27.899 --> 00:16:32.580
he's the one that pushes on the genesis.

337
00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:34.799
I love the fact that he's the one rather than her.

338
00:16:34.860 --> 00:16:38.519
I mean, we get the flashback to her, but he's as much important as

339
00:16:38.519 --> 00:16:40.620
what she is because he's travelled through time as well.

340
00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:44.759
And I just like that so much, even though the focus is obviously

341
00:16:44.759 --> 00:16:48.120
not on Mickey, but there's all these moments with him in the

342
00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:48.480
background.

343
00:16:48.539 --> 00:16:50.759
You still get a Mickey the idiot moment.

344
00:16:50.820 --> 00:16:54.000
We still have to remember who he is when he falls on the genital

345
00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:55.620
arc, whatever the thing is.

346
00:16:55.740 --> 00:16:58.320
Although the doctor does say the big rice maker.

347
00:16:58.379 --> 00:16:58.620
Yes.

348
00:16:58.679 --> 00:17:01.379
That's right I mean, the doctor does say, look, they would have

349
00:17:01.379 --> 00:17:03.360
blown up the sun in order to get in there.

350
00:17:03.419 --> 00:17:08.460
So, you know, it is him being clumsy again, but it's a sort of

351
00:17:08.460 --> 00:17:09.660
fortunate clumsiness.

352
00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:11.700
No one berates him for being an idiot.

353
00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:12.960
Yeah.

354
00:17:13.019 --> 00:17:17.279
Yeah, he is really, really terrific, I think.

355
00:17:23.339 --> 00:17:27.599
You know, the idea of having the Daleks and the same men bachelor

356
00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:29.819
each other is not, is not new.

357
00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:31.500
Of course not.

358
00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:32.940
Every fanboy.

359
00:17:32.940 --> 00:17:33.839
No, no, no, no.

360
00:17:33.900 --> 00:17:37.500
Todd has exercise book's full of drawings of it.

361
00:17:37.500 --> 00:17:38.220
What do you mean drawings?

362
00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:40.440
I've written stories about that when I was.

363
00:17:40.500 --> 00:17:41.279
Of course, of course.

364
00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:43.920
The Daleks and the Siemens turned up at the end of episode one.

365
00:17:43.980 --> 00:17:45.960
I mean, I mean, in an official sense.

366
00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:50.339
The BBC actually made inquiries to the Terry Nation Estate in

367
00:17:50.339 --> 00:17:51.599
1967.

368
00:17:51.720 --> 00:17:52.500
Really?

369
00:17:52.500 --> 00:17:54.119
And they were told no.

370
00:17:54.180 --> 00:17:57.539
And Terry Nation to turn around and told them to go themselves.

371
00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:01.079
There's only one Helen Lawson in this production.

372
00:18:01.140 --> 00:18:02.339
Very Valley of the Dolls, yes.

373
00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:06.779
But every fanboy, going back to whenever, has always wanted the

374
00:18:06.779 --> 00:18:08.579
Daleks and the Simon in the one story.

375
00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:11.039
And besides the 5 doctors would never really had it.

376
00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:13.859
And to have them here, and to think coming into this, they're

377
00:18:13.859 --> 00:18:15.660
going to have an alliance and it's going to be impossible.

378
00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:19.740
But then when it's that bitch scene from, I'm not going to say

379
00:18:19.740 --> 00:18:20.819
from hell, it's from heaven.

380
00:18:20.819 --> 00:18:23.940
Because the dialogue in that is just so...

381
00:18:23.940 --> 00:18:26.339
It's so dynasty.

382
00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:28.980
But, you know, in Dalek, we have a cyberhead.

383
00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:29.940
And it goes back.

384
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:32.519
There's about 5 stories going back where you've at least had an

385
00:18:32.519 --> 00:18:36.240
element of them, even if it's just flashbacks of they've been

386
00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:36.779
teasing us.

387
00:18:36.839 --> 00:18:40.440
Yeah, they had been sprinkling it through the time stream, haven't

388
00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:40.619
they?

389
00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:41.460
It is.

390
00:18:41.460 --> 00:18:42.180
It's Clara.

391
00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:43.440
It's that bloody Clara.

392
00:18:43.619 --> 00:18:44.519
Yeah, she would have done that.

393
00:18:44.579 --> 00:18:45.359
Bugger off.

394
00:18:45.420 --> 00:18:46.619
She can't leave it alone.

395
00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:49.500
Would you have predicted that the Daleks were so much better than

396
00:18:49.500 --> 00:18:50.279
the sidemen?

397
00:18:50.339 --> 00:18:54.720
I mean, if I had asked you in 2005 Daleks versus Sidemen, who

398
00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:55.079
would have won?

399
00:18:55.140 --> 00:18:57.180
I think they would have been more Joan Collins.

400
00:18:57.240 --> 00:19:00.539
I think we always knew I always I always would have thought the

401
00:19:00.539 --> 00:19:01.079
Daleks.

402
00:19:01.140 --> 00:19:04.500
Like, when the Dalek says we would destroy the Cybermen with one

403
00:19:04.500 --> 00:19:08.700
Dalek, and you get to see the soldiers battling Cybermen, and the

404
00:19:08.700 --> 00:19:10.619
only way they can destroy them is by having a bazooka.

405
00:19:10.680 --> 00:19:15.480
But then the Dalek then just exterminates the 2 side of men like

406
00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:17.400
with one shot and they've been trying to destroy them.

407
00:19:17.460 --> 00:19:24.240
It's like this hierarchy of death. hierarchy of of England versus

408
00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:24.779
Europe.

409
00:19:25.140 --> 00:19:27.480
The humans are down the bottom.

410
00:19:27.539 --> 00:19:31.859
The cybermen are like a big threat, but then the Daleks are again

411
00:19:31.859 --> 00:19:32.819
twice.

412
00:19:32.819 --> 00:19:33.420
A Belgium.

413
00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:33.660
Yeah.

414
00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:37.559
I'm doing some hand gestures. works very well on radio.

415
00:19:37.859 --> 00:19:39.240
Sorry.

416
00:19:39.240 --> 00:19:40.859
You've got excellent hands for radio.

417
00:19:43.980 --> 00:19:49.500
You know that this rarely for Doctor Who, this story actually

418
00:19:49.500 --> 00:19:54.299
outrated most of the the football matches that week.

419
00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:58.559
Okay, because I guess people knew Billy was leaving.

420
00:19:58.619 --> 00:20:00.180
Oh, you had lost the week before.

421
00:20:01.079 --> 00:20:04.140
And they put them on the radio times cover.

422
00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:07.440
They had 2 radio times covers, one with the psyche men and one

423
00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:09.359
with the Daleks holding footballs.

424
00:20:09.420 --> 00:20:11.519
I seem to remember that actually.

425
00:20:11.579 --> 00:20:13.140
What was the actual rating?

426
00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:14.039
Eight point something?

427
00:20:14.099 --> 00:20:14.819
8.22.

428
00:20:14.940 --> 00:20:18.779
It's still an appreciation index of 89, which is one of the

429
00:20:18.779 --> 00:20:20.519
highest of joint highest.

430
00:20:20.579 --> 00:20:24.240
Yes, but people will like any old thing.

431
00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:29.759
I just like to shout out to the listeners of FTE at this point.

432
00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:32.220
But in all seriousness.

433
00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:34.980
I really enjoyed watching this episode.

434
00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:37.140
Again, it improved for me.

435
00:20:37.259 --> 00:20:39.539
And you might say there's not much plot.

436
00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:42.299
But I love the way he sets up this genesis art thing as this

437
00:20:42.299 --> 00:20:44.460
special thing and you're kind of going, oh, what is this genesis

438
00:20:44.460 --> 00:20:45.240
art thing, you know?

439
00:20:45.299 --> 00:20:47.759
It can't be anything major.

440
00:20:47.819 --> 00:20:49.559
And then it's, you know, it's time or technology.

441
00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:52.079
And I'm there in my head going, what do you mean it's time?

442
00:20:52.140 --> 00:20:53.759
Because they make it look like a dalek, don't they?

443
00:20:53.819 --> 00:20:54.900
I mean, it's sort of Dalek shade.

444
00:20:54.960 --> 00:20:57.299
Well, that was the question when I was...

445
00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:00.779
Yeah, why would they make a TARDIS thing look like Idyllic?

446
00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:01.980
Oh, to hold darling?

447
00:21:02.039 --> 00:21:04.799
But never in a 1000000 years did I think that it was going to be

448
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:05.880
like bigger on the inside.

449
00:21:05.940 --> 00:21:09.000
That was the most simplest time lord technology.

450
00:21:09.059 --> 00:21:11.640
I'm thinking, oh, it's some, you know, the matrix or goodness

451
00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:15.059
knows what, but then it's, it's staring you right in the face.

452
00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:18.240
It's the one thing that normal people know about time, Lord

453
00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:19.319
technology, isn't it?

454
00:21:19.380 --> 00:21:21.480
You know, they travel in time and their thing is bigger on the

455
00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:22.740
inside than the outside.

456
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:26.339
So the matrix or the transduction barrier or any of that kind of

457
00:21:26.339 --> 00:21:29.880
thing would have just been sort of too tiresome, I think, as time

458
00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:30.779
or technology.

459
00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:32.099
That is absolutely perfect.

460
00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:36.720
And it is Russell's approach to science fiction, which is here's

461
00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:39.900
some science fiction concepts that a normal person can understand

462
00:21:39.900 --> 00:21:41.460
like the sphere last week.

463
00:21:41.579 --> 00:21:43.259
It is hilarious.

464
00:21:43.319 --> 00:21:47.039
There's one really, I think it's a sort of shockingly bad moment

465
00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:52.200
where dialect sec, I think, and the Genesis Arc are up in the air

466
00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:57.660
above sort of stock footage of Canary Wharf, you know, like right

467
00:21:57.660 --> 00:21:59.759
slap bang in the middle of the shot.

468
00:21:59.880 --> 00:22:04.619
But it is a great reveal when it starts sort of coughing dialects

469
00:22:04.619 --> 00:22:06.299
up at sort of massive rates.

470
00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:07.920
It is pretty amazing.

471
00:22:07.980 --> 00:22:10.619
What do you think of this cult of Skyro business?

472
00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:14.160
Oh, you know, like it's obviously something that he'll pick up

473
00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:15.119
later.

474
00:22:15.180 --> 00:22:18.900
And we have had Daleks with names before, remember?

475
00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:20.819
Way, way back in the beginning.

476
00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:24.180
We've also had cyberpersons with names, but it's from the TV21

477
00:22:24.180 --> 00:22:25.019
dialect comics.

478
00:22:25.079 --> 00:22:27.720
They all had names in that because David Whittaker said they had

479
00:22:27.720 --> 00:22:27.960
to.

480
00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:33.299
Oh, I was thinking of the, again, sort of the evil of the Daleks

481
00:22:33.299 --> 00:22:36.660
where the human Daleks are called sort of alphabetia and gamma or

482
00:22:36.660 --> 00:22:39.900
whatever, and they have names and they play games and stuff.

483
00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:45.779
I think it's actually quite good for Russell to kind of add to the

484
00:22:45.779 --> 00:22:50.819
mythology, like to bring in something about the Daleks, that nerds

485
00:22:50.819 --> 00:22:53.400
who've been watching the show forever and ever didn't know yet.

486
00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:58.440
Again, at the time, I was there going, oh, I'm a big nerd from the

487
00:22:58.440 --> 00:22:59.880
show and we've never heard of this.

488
00:22:59.940 --> 00:23:03.299
What, this has never been any, anything, and at any time, this is

489
00:23:03.299 --> 00:23:07.920
just a magic McGuffin thing that you've pulled out of wherever, but

490
00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:09.059
I now totally agree.

491
00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:13.079
I think it's fantastic to add to the mythology and to expand it

492
00:23:13.079 --> 00:23:17.700
and things will come into play later on that we can't see.

493
00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:21.000
You know, Duoss was saying the same thing about Dav Ross's

494
00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:23.220
introduction in 75, 76.

495
00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:25.019
But how did you feel about Torchwood?

496
00:23:25.079 --> 00:23:27.059
Because I had exactly that same reaction.

497
00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:27.960
This is annoying.

498
00:23:28.019 --> 00:23:30.359
This doesn't fit, this can't be made to retrofit.

499
00:23:30.420 --> 00:23:31.920
Yeah, where were they in the 70s?

500
00:23:32.039 --> 00:23:34.200
were unit really so hapless.

501
00:23:34.259 --> 00:23:36.359
Really, that we didn't know.

502
00:23:36.420 --> 00:23:38.460
And if there were anti-doctor, why were they not active?

503
00:23:38.519 --> 00:23:42.960
Well, I mean, they're a secret organisation and they're pro

504
00:23:41.940 --> 00:23:44.940
British, so they would be hiding themselves from the UN.

505
00:23:45.539 --> 00:23:48.059
Yeah, so come on.

506
00:23:48.059 --> 00:23:51.299
All the stuff that was falling down through devil's armpit.

507
00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:54.119
Surely, where did that all end up?

508
00:23:54.180 --> 00:23:55.619
They're sneaking around the stink.

509
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:56.039
Yes.

510
00:23:56.099 --> 00:23:58.079
They're actually different devils.

511
00:23:58.200 --> 00:23:58.920
They're the travellers.

512
00:23:58.980 --> 00:24:01.259
They're the gypsies in the caravans.

513
00:24:01.259 --> 00:24:03.960
They're biding their time, right?

514
00:24:04.019 --> 00:24:08.099
They're just gathering all of this stuff that this moment in time

515
00:24:08.099 --> 00:24:11.759
their moment has come and their doomsdays upon them.

516
00:24:11.819 --> 00:24:16.079
I guess, I mean, as one viewer, I have to say, put me off the

517
00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:19.079
concept of torchwood before I'd seen torchwood.

518
00:24:19.140 --> 00:24:20.339
Just didn't really fit for me.

519
00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:21.539
And you saw Torch to it.

520
00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:23.700
And that put you off the concept of torchwood.

521
00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:25.980
When are we doing that podcast now?

522
00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:26.700
We're doing it now.

523
00:24:33.420 --> 00:24:37.200
I love the fact that when the cyber leader is destroyed, we

524
00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:40.380
suddenly get a new cyber leader to download and the black

525
00:24:40.380 --> 00:24:47.039
handlebars on the cyberhead, which is just important, since I'm a

526
00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:49.019
classic Doctor 2 series fan and one must have that.

527
00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:53.039
I don't particularly like the end when they all get sucked back

528
00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:54.480
through into the void.

529
00:24:54.539 --> 00:24:57.839
So there's all these Daleks being sucked.

530
00:24:58.319 --> 00:25:02.220
So the cybermen go through the cracks that they arrived through.

531
00:25:02.279 --> 00:25:04.799
So they don't go through the void thing, I guess.

532
00:25:04.859 --> 00:25:06.599
I guess that's the reason.

533
00:25:06.660 --> 00:25:10.559
But there may be budgetary reasons about not having their CG

534
00:25:10.559 --> 00:25:12.960
Cyberman models bouncing off the walls.

535
00:25:13.079 --> 00:25:17.039
While they're in that room and they're hanging on to the magna

536
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:21.420
clamps or whatever, and the Daleks sort of fly into the thing and

537
00:25:21.420 --> 00:25:22.619
they're bouncing off the walls.

538
00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:25.559
I'm kind of thinking, like, what if one of them hits, Billy?

539
00:25:25.619 --> 00:25:27.599
It didn't seem very dangerous.

540
00:25:27.660 --> 00:25:31.559
Not even a scuff mark on the plaster board afterwards.

541
00:25:31.619 --> 00:25:34.319
It's something that's never set well with me, the fact that the

542
00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:38.039
southern just sort of just go, we, and then they're gone, and then

543
00:25:38.039 --> 00:25:41.099
all the Daleks just go back through that particular point when

544
00:25:41.099 --> 00:25:42.119
they came out of the sphere.

545
00:25:42.180 --> 00:25:43.619
I don't know.

546
00:25:43.740 --> 00:25:46.980
It makes for spectacle and I guess that's what you want.

547
00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:49.319
You want something that you couldn't have seen before.

548
00:25:49.380 --> 00:25:54.359
So I guess it's okay, but it is slightly, it's slightly odd, I

549
00:25:54.359 --> 00:25:54.599
think.

550
00:25:54.660 --> 00:25:57.119
Well, I think if you had this album going through there, they'd be

551
00:25:57.119 --> 00:25:59.519
like rag dolls and it'd look really terrible.

552
00:25:59.579 --> 00:26:02.339
So all you can do is they go up and into their cracks. much easier

553
00:26:02.339 --> 00:26:05.099
to have lots of tiny little pepper pot shaped things.

554
00:26:05.160 --> 00:26:07.079
This before HD.

555
00:26:07.319 --> 00:26:10.380
They do have CG Cyberman, don't they?

556
00:26:10.440 --> 00:26:14.279
I mean, when the ghosts turn into Cyberman, they're initially CG

557
00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:15.000
Cyberman.

558
00:26:15.059 --> 00:26:17.700
Yeah, I think they only had 10 costumes for the shoot.

559
00:26:17.819 --> 00:26:19.259
So everything else you see in the street.

560
00:26:19.259 --> 00:26:20.400
It's like doubled.

561
00:26:20.460 --> 00:26:20.940
Yeah.

562
00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:22.380
They do a great job of that.

563
00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:25.619
Like they do an amazing job and that was always the thing with

564
00:26:25.619 --> 00:26:29.160
Doctor Who, you know, in terror of the Zygons, the doctor says to

565
00:26:29.160 --> 00:26:33.119
Broton, you know, isn't the planet a bit big for the 5 of you?

566
00:26:33.180 --> 00:26:36.900
You know, there's only ever, there's only ever a small number of

567
00:26:36.900 --> 00:26:37.559
aliens.

568
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:40.019
And so the moment that we can have lots and lots of them.

569
00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:45.359
Russell says that he wanted to recreate those big epic dalek

570
00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:49.859
battles that we imagined or read in the comics and stuff and now

571
00:26:49.859 --> 00:26:50.819
he can finally do it.

572
00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:54.779
Thrill to witness Planet of the Daleks. as we shall soon.

573
00:26:55.440 --> 00:26:59.460
The other thing that perhaps doesn't sit particularly well with me

574
00:26:59.460 --> 00:27:04.680
in that scene, too, is is roses going to get sucked into that rift

575
00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:07.920
and then Pete just magically appears at the right moment in the

576
00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:09.539
right spot to catch her.

577
00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:13.079
And then he stands there for what seems like quite a bit of time

578
00:27:13.079 --> 00:27:14.579
without getting sucked in himself.

579
00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:17.279
I just kind of think, how did you know to go to that point?

580
00:27:17.339 --> 00:27:19.380
Is that stupid of me or?

581
00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:20.880
he's he's her dad.

582
00:27:20.940 --> 00:27:24.900
He's her dad, of course, he's gonna know how to rescue her. 30

583
00:27:24.900 --> 00:27:25.799
seconds earlier.

584
00:27:25.859 --> 00:27:28.500
He's saying she's your daughter, not mine.

585
00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:29.579
Yeah, yeah.

586
00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:33.359
But so he has to rescue her to make up for that so that he does

587
00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:34.259
become her dad.

588
00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:35.519
Don't get me wrong.

589
00:27:35.579 --> 00:27:38.160
No, it's an absolutely brilliant moment because those camera

590
00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:41.579
angles when from her point of view, from the doctor's point of

591
00:27:41.579 --> 00:27:44.400
view, when they're looking at each other and they're screaming and

592
00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:47.339
the camera's moving apart, like their points of view are moving

593
00:27:47.339 --> 00:27:49.380
apart as she goes into the void.

594
00:27:49.500 --> 00:27:51.420
That's fantastic direction.

595
00:27:51.539 --> 00:27:54.299
And you actually think, 0 my goodness, she's actually going in

596
00:27:54.299 --> 00:27:54.480
there.

597
00:27:54.539 --> 00:27:56.640
How are they going to get out of this?

598
00:27:56.700 --> 00:27:59.819
And they've said that she's going to die, you know, over and over

599
00:27:59.819 --> 00:28:00.000
again.

600
00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:01.559
She said that she's going to die.

601
00:28:01.559 --> 00:28:02.819
How she's saying she's going to die?

602
00:28:02.819 --> 00:28:03.599
She's dead.

603
00:28:03.660 --> 00:28:04.319
Well, yes.

604
00:28:04.380 --> 00:28:07.140
She only means her future acting computer.

605
00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:09.299
And that's actually the saddest thing.

606
00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:10.319
The most poignant thing for me.

607
00:28:10.380 --> 00:28:11.519
And yes, I had a little weep.

608
00:28:11.579 --> 00:28:12.660
I hope you all did as well.

609
00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:14.759
Yeah, omen here in this room.

610
00:28:14.819 --> 00:28:15.839
There was.

611
00:28:15.900 --> 00:28:17.099
There were 2 points.

612
00:28:17.160 --> 00:28:20.819
Actually, the big one for me is the same with Todd when Camille

613
00:28:20.819 --> 00:28:23.519
and Sean had their moment together.

614
00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:26.819
I thought, oh, if anyone who's lost a parent for one for reason or

615
00:28:26.819 --> 00:28:30.059
another is going to really be feeling that because this is about

616
00:28:30.059 --> 00:28:34.380
finding safety in an island that has been transgressed both from

617
00:28:34.380 --> 00:28:35.039
within and without.

618
00:28:35.099 --> 00:28:36.720
Have we mentioned Brexit this episode?

619
00:28:36.779 --> 00:28:38.460
I don't think we're about to.

620
00:28:38.519 --> 00:28:39.900
I think we're about to.

621
00:28:39.960 --> 00:28:45.299
But there is, again, that the cause of what is, that Russell does

622
00:28:45.299 --> 00:28:48.119
so well is what is our main defence.

623
00:28:48.180 --> 00:28:50.940
And he does it in a really nice way.

624
00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:55.079
It is still the primary family unit that you'll get every crypto

625
00:28:55.079 --> 00:28:58.799
fascist in every neoliberal right wing government saying, you know

626
00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:01.859
we're fear for families first, but he says yes, many different

627
00:29:01.859 --> 00:29:03.660
shapes make up a family.

628
00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:05.400
Well, and it's a weird family.

629
00:29:05.460 --> 00:29:09.000
It's a family where the mother and father have both died at one

630
00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:09.359
point.

631
00:29:09.359 --> 00:29:13.440
It's a strange lash up of a family.

632
00:29:13.500 --> 00:29:17.880
Cross-pollinating Mirror Universe Star Trek mashup family, isn't

633
00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:18.000
it?

634
00:29:18.059 --> 00:29:19.200
So it's wrong and bad.

635
00:29:19.259 --> 00:29:21.599
And Mickey's part of that family as well.

636
00:29:21.660 --> 00:29:23.099
So it's a created family.

637
00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:25.920
I still feel badly for Mickey right at the end of this, the one

638
00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:29.279
I'm really, he is still the dog because, you know, he said, oh, you

639
00:29:29.279 --> 00:29:30.420
oh, another member of the family.

640
00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:31.380
Oh no, not me.

641
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:32.759
Not me.

642
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:36.839
And I thought, oh, oh, poor Mickey, he's still being sidelined.

643
00:29:36.900 --> 00:29:38.759
It was the big as if moment.

644
00:29:38.819 --> 00:29:45.359
That is actually, she pranks him twice in that heartfelt final...

645
00:29:45.420 --> 00:29:47.160
Working in the shop.

646
00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:49.619
I'm pregnant to Mickey.

647
00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:53.640
It was honestly like the future of Sophie Aldred's career, wasn't

648
00:29:53.640 --> 00:29:53.759
it?

649
00:29:54.599 --> 00:30:00.180
In a lovely upper middle glass shot, folding scarves, with clean

650
00:30:00.180 --> 00:30:00.779
teeth.

651
00:30:01.079 --> 00:30:07.440
So, Richard, you said that the Camille, Pete was one point that

652
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:07.920
you cried.

653
00:30:07.980 --> 00:30:08.700
What was that the time?

654
00:30:08.759 --> 00:30:09.480
Got me.

655
00:30:09.539 --> 00:30:11.220
That just got me this time.

656
00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:16.440
And the other one was, again, it's Billy just managing to make it

657
00:30:16.440 --> 00:30:16.740
happen.

658
00:30:16.799 --> 00:30:20.460
Billy actually, no, it was standing on the beach waiting and then

659
00:30:20.460 --> 00:30:24.119
he appears and I thought, oh, no, I've never really cared for the

660
00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:27.900
doctor and rose coupling.

661
00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:28.980
It never really worked for me.

662
00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:34.079
It was always a little bit self-aggrandizing, if you like, or yeah

663
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:35.039
it was exclusionist.

664
00:30:35.099 --> 00:30:36.480
Yeah, not just being exclusive.

665
00:30:36.539 --> 00:30:38.039
I was always Mickey in that relationship.

666
00:30:38.099 --> 00:30:41.220
I was, I was always there with an old thinking, actually, Noel's

667
00:30:41.220 --> 00:30:42.660
got, got the talent in this scene.

668
00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:44.519
I'm really paying more attention to him.

669
00:30:44.579 --> 00:30:47.279
But yeah, it did work because they're both very, very good.

670
00:30:47.339 --> 00:30:52.079
I'm just astonished at what a good director Graham Harper is.

671
00:30:52.140 --> 00:30:56.039
You don't tend to get those who can do terrific action and

672
00:30:56.039 --> 00:31:00.000
intimacy other than in really good cinema, which is why I

673
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:03.299
mentioned Michael Powell last episode, who did Colonel Blimp

674
00:31:03.299 --> 00:31:04.440
Deborah Carr.

675
00:31:04.500 --> 00:31:09.660
We referenced Stark Materials, but does also reference the roles

676
00:31:09.660 --> 00:31:13.259
that Deborah Carr plays as the other women in Blimp's Light.

677
00:31:13.319 --> 00:31:14.940
Anyway, you can see little nods to that.

678
00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:18.779
When Russell writes these things, he always allows a little room

679
00:31:18.779 --> 00:31:21.960
for the quiet single fan person.

680
00:31:22.019 --> 00:31:24.960
I won't say the lonely fan, but there probably is a reason that we

681
00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:26.400
all obsess over a TV show.

682
00:31:26.460 --> 00:31:29.339
There might be something else missing from our lives as young

683
00:31:29.339 --> 00:31:29.579
people.

684
00:31:29.640 --> 00:31:30.960
Oh, I do firmly believe that.

685
00:31:31.019 --> 00:31:33.960
It's no bad thing that, you know, we use things like this to

686
00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:37.019
replace that which is missing from our lives as children and I

687
00:31:37.019 --> 00:31:39.839
might just be not having the kind of friends that we want or

688
00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:42.599
living in a quiet life or having parents that are at work.

689
00:31:42.660 --> 00:31:46.619
But this show has been there for so many young people.

690
00:31:46.680 --> 00:31:50.579
And when it does an emotional scene like this, it's not about what

691
00:31:50.579 --> 00:31:54.960
we're watching, it's about us as Russell and Mickey wanting to be

692
00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:59.039
a part of something lovely and big and warm and safe, never quite

693
00:31:59.039 --> 00:31:59.819
being there.

694
00:32:00.059 --> 00:32:03.660
The doctor's alone in his little phone box, and so are we, and

695
00:32:03.660 --> 00:32:04.920
that's really why this works.

696
00:32:04.980 --> 00:32:07.200
And that's why I'm really grateful to Russell.

697
00:32:07.259 --> 00:32:11.400
And writers like him for understanding that small people, who are

698
00:32:11.400 --> 00:32:14.700
still inside all of us, need this connection to the bigger world

699
00:32:14.700 --> 00:32:17.039
and to find our own place in that world.

700
00:32:17.099 --> 00:32:18.960
Quite right too.

701
00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:21.839
I think she does say that, doesn't she?

702
00:32:21.900 --> 00:32:23.279
He says that.

703
00:32:23.400 --> 00:32:24.359
And she says that quite well.

704
00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:25.559
Looking at my notes here.

705
00:32:25.619 --> 00:32:29.039
When she says, I love you, which I found quite affecting.

706
00:32:29.099 --> 00:32:32.880
And he says quite right to a line that I never really, at the time

707
00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:35.640
liked, I kind of thought, because he's a narcissistic.

708
00:32:35.700 --> 00:32:38.640
It's a bit, it's been layout in Han.

709
00:32:39.720 --> 00:32:40.680
Yeah, it's not.

710
00:32:40.740 --> 00:32:41.279
It's yeah.

711
00:32:41.339 --> 00:32:44.640
But when he says that, and I suppose one last chance to say it

712
00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:45.240
Rose Tyler.

713
00:32:45.359 --> 00:32:48.359
And you don't get him saying, I love you.

714
00:32:48.420 --> 00:32:50.039
But he was going to.

715
00:32:50.099 --> 00:32:51.960
Yes, but I breathe a sigh of relief.

716
00:32:52.019 --> 00:32:55.980
Yeah, I think that might have been a little bit too much, but, I

717
00:32:55.980 --> 00:32:57.960
mean, it's definitely what he was going to say.

718
00:32:58.019 --> 00:32:59.940
I don't think that there's any question.

719
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:01.440
Have we seen him actually cry before?

720
00:33:01.500 --> 00:33:03.240
Yeah Have we ever seen the doctor cry?

721
00:33:03.299 --> 00:33:06.660
I don't think pertly cries when he leaves Joe. No, Eccleston sheds

722
00:33:06.660 --> 00:33:12.720
a tear when Jabe is no, before that, when Jabe is consoling him

723
00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:14.400
about...

724
00:33:14.460 --> 00:33:17.160
Yeah, which I, again, at the time thought was absolutely

725
00:33:17.160 --> 00:33:20.880
incredible before she becomes a box of matches.

726
00:33:20.940 --> 00:33:21.599
Yes exactly.

727
00:33:21.720 --> 00:33:23.700
Oh, thank you, Richard.

728
00:33:24.599 --> 00:33:30.180
But that is so great because it's a scene which is super

729
00:33:30.180 --> 00:33:30.900
superhuman.

730
00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:33.779
There's that wonderful moment where not wooden at all.

731
00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:37.140
No, where Billy says, where Billy says she doesn't know what to

732
00:33:37.140 --> 00:33:37.319
say.

733
00:33:37.380 --> 00:33:38.819
Like, after all this time, there they are.

734
00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:39.900
They've got this limited time.

735
00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:40.500
What am I going to say?

736
00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:41.759
It's truthful, isn't it?

737
00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:42.539
It's really truthful.

738
00:33:42.539 --> 00:33:44.039
We would all be like that.

739
00:33:44.099 --> 00:33:47.700
There are jokes in the scene and all of that, but it is.

740
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:51.119
Can you imagine what if Olivia Coleman had played the rose

741
00:33:51.119 --> 00:33:54.480
character through all of this and she'd stood there for 2 years

742
00:33:54.480 --> 00:33:57.420
we'd had Olivia Coleman instead of Billy Piper and she'd stood

743
00:33:57.420 --> 00:33:58.680
there and she said, I've got nothing to say.

744
00:33:58.740 --> 00:34:00.299
We can reference her Oscar speech.

745
00:34:00.359 --> 00:34:02.099
She would have found lost to say.

746
00:34:02.160 --> 00:34:04.500
And it all would have been on the cutting room floor.

747
00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:08.880
Such a shame he didn't put on his 3D glasses for that sake. would

748
00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:11.340
have added an extra level of gravitas to it.

749
00:34:11.400 --> 00:34:12.840
You've nailed something there too.

750
00:34:12.900 --> 00:34:16.739
And maybe that's where we come back to the safety of how we live

751
00:34:16.739 --> 00:34:18.840
is that there's always a wall. is always a shield.

752
00:34:18.900 --> 00:34:20.219
There's always a defence.

753
00:34:20.280 --> 00:34:22.139
So when he says quite right too.

754
00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:26.280
It's that very brittle, wildy and what Oscar Wilde uses it a lot

755
00:34:26.280 --> 00:34:31.380
in his plays as well to obviate true lachrymose emotionality, you

756
00:34:31.380 --> 00:34:33.179
know, to before it gets too sloppy.

757
00:34:33.239 --> 00:34:34.320
They'll they'll throw that in.

758
00:34:34.380 --> 00:34:36.480
Yeah, I'm really uncomfortable with that line.

759
00:34:36.539 --> 00:34:41.519
It is sort of defensive as if the doctor's aware that he's not

760
00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:42.780
meant to say that sort of thing.

761
00:34:42.900 --> 00:34:45.659
It allows me to go back to my old life.

762
00:34:45.719 --> 00:34:46.380
Yeah.

763
00:34:46.380 --> 00:34:47.699
So maybe that's okay.

764
00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:50.099
But certainly he doesn't build.

765
00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:51.599
He doesn't really learn, does he?

766
00:34:51.659 --> 00:34:55.619
We talked earlier in this episode about crying at companion

767
00:34:55.619 --> 00:34:58.800
departures and now Russell has written one that's deliberately

768
00:34:58.800 --> 00:34:59.940
intended to make you do that.

769
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:01.019
And he's good at it.

770
00:35:01.079 --> 00:35:01.920
He really is.

771
00:35:01.980 --> 00:35:07.619
I mean, I don't think that anyone writing terminus thought that we

772
00:35:07.619 --> 00:35:10.739
would care that he was leaving.

773
00:35:11.159 --> 00:35:12.900
That was awful.

774
00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:14.940
God, you had to bring our owl.

775
00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:17.039
I'm just like, I'm still feeling I feel that ow.

776
00:35:17.099 --> 00:35:18.659
Yeah, she's going to stay with the lepers.

777
00:35:18.719 --> 00:35:20.699
Gee, that's going to end well isn't it?

778
00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:25.679
But here, you know, he, Russell, watched the show the same way

779
00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:26.280
that we did.

780
00:35:26.340 --> 00:35:29.400
And so he knew that that's what these scenes were for.

781
00:35:29.460 --> 00:35:32.940
Don't leave her on a Blake 7 set with a lot of lepers.

782
00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:34.679
That's not what you do.

783
00:35:34.980 --> 00:35:36.960
You leave it with family.

784
00:35:37.019 --> 00:35:38.039
You leave it with family.

785
00:35:38.099 --> 00:35:40.800
Yeah, better than how you found her.

786
00:35:40.860 --> 00:35:43.860
And that's why the I'm working in a shop joke works so well

787
00:35:43.860 --> 00:35:46.739
because if that had been true, that would have been absolutely

788
00:35:46.739 --> 00:35:48.000
shockingly terrible.

789
00:35:48.059 --> 00:35:52.860
And so she pranks him by saying, actually, that my time with you

790
00:35:52.860 --> 00:35:54.300
had no effect at all.

791
00:35:54.360 --> 00:35:55.500
And here I am working in a shop.

792
00:35:55.500 --> 00:35:56.940
And he falls for it.

793
00:35:57.000 --> 00:35:58.260
That's her bit of defence.

794
00:35:58.320 --> 00:35:59.940
He falls with it because he's a snob.

795
00:36:00.059 --> 00:36:04.739
So if he'd actually been completely heart engaged, he'd go, oh, but

796
00:36:04.739 --> 00:36:07.199
you know, you're so much more than that, but because he can't do

797
00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:09.239
that because he sees it as the same for things.

798
00:36:09.300 --> 00:36:11.639
So, therefore, he has to be dissembling at all.

799
00:36:11.639 --> 00:36:14.639
Patronising, that it's okay, instead of saying, as a normal person

800
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:16.079
would or an engaged person.

801
00:36:16.139 --> 00:36:17.519
What the hell are you doing that for?

802
00:36:17.579 --> 00:36:19.199
You've got so much more you can do now.

803
00:36:19.260 --> 00:36:20.699
You weren't happy then?

804
00:36:20.760 --> 00:36:22.380
Why are you doing it to yourself now?

805
00:36:22.440 --> 00:36:25.800
A normal person who engaged emotional person would say that.

806
00:36:25.860 --> 00:36:29.280
We know the doctor has a narcissistic thread to him.

807
00:36:29.340 --> 00:36:33.539
Do you also think that he feels guilty because it's an accident

808
00:36:33.539 --> 00:36:36.539
that Rose ends up in the parallel universe, but it's not

809
00:36:36.539 --> 00:36:39.300
completely an accident because that's the doctor's plan.

810
00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:43.920
And when he tells, yes, he allowed that going, I'm closing the

811
00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:45.360
wall and I'm staying here.

812
00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:48.059
And he does it with no emotion at all.

813
00:36:48.119 --> 00:36:52.739
Like, he absolutely can't bring himself to address what he's...

814
00:36:52.739 --> 00:36:53.400
Shields, Simpson.

815
00:36:53.460 --> 00:36:53.940
Yeah, yeah.

816
00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:57.119
Well, it's actually just 13 millimetres of plasterboard, but you

817
00:36:57.119 --> 00:36:59.280
know, it's enough to keep Billy's teeth out.

818
00:36:59.340 --> 00:37:01.980
But what an affecting shot.

819
00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:05.099
Like when they are on both sides of the ball.

820
00:37:05.159 --> 00:37:07.079
Oh, it's absolutely brilliant.

821
00:37:07.139 --> 00:37:09.900
And the reason it's brilliant, and again, it's Russell taking a

822
00:37:09.900 --> 00:37:14.460
science fiction concept and making it comprehensible, they're just

823
00:37:14.460 --> 00:37:18.840
on 2 sides of a wall with no door between it, no way of

824
00:37:18.840 --> 00:37:19.739
interacting.

825
00:37:19.800 --> 00:37:24.719
And Rose senses when the doctor is on the other side of the wall.

826
00:37:24.780 --> 00:37:26.460
Like she reacts.

827
00:37:26.519 --> 00:37:32.519
She's up against the wall crying with her family behind her and

828
00:37:32.519 --> 00:37:36.360
the doctor goes up to the wall and listens and she reacts when he

829
00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:37.739
puts his ear to the wall.

830
00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:39.719
So she can sense he's there.

831
00:37:39.780 --> 00:37:43.559
And just having it 2 people on either side of a wall is perfect.

832
00:37:43.619 --> 00:37:45.900
That's what you need to see.

833
00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:47.880
That's how you tell that story visually.

834
00:37:47.940 --> 00:37:51.599
We don't have to worry about science fiction nonsense about

835
00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:53.280
parallel universes.

836
00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:56.460
We can see how completely separated they are from each other.

837
00:37:56.519 --> 00:37:58.320
I think it's absolutely extraordinary.

838
00:37:58.380 --> 00:38:03.179
And one of the most remarkable visual images of new who, I think

839
00:38:03.179 --> 00:38:03.539
ever.

840
00:38:03.599 --> 00:38:05.400
Just needs a crack in the wall.

841
00:38:05.460 --> 00:38:07.079
Yeah, that'll come.

842
00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:09.119
She'll be back.

843
00:38:09.539 --> 00:38:13.440
But the emotion of all of this throughout all these characters in

844
00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:15.480
this episode is what knits it all together.

845
00:38:15.539 --> 00:38:18.659
And even with Yvonne, you know, I did my duty for queen and

846
00:38:18.659 --> 00:38:23.039
country, her passionate and emotion overrides cyber control in

847
00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:25.739
that moment where she's up the top of the stairs as the cyberman

848
00:38:25.739 --> 00:38:30.719
and having that tear come out of the cyberman's tear hole.

849
00:38:30.780 --> 00:38:32.219
It's now officially known.

850
00:38:32.280 --> 00:38:34.500
Is that the weakest moment, though?

851
00:38:34.559 --> 00:38:35.940
No, I like it.

852
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:38.519
I really didn't work for me then or now.

853
00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:41.219
It's boldlerized, to my sense.

854
00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:42.719
Also because the character herself.

855
00:38:42.780 --> 00:38:46.559
I know that we need to rescue the humanity in our human monsters

856
00:38:46.559 --> 00:38:48.480
and Russell's very good at doing that.

857
00:38:48.539 --> 00:38:52.260
But this is something new that we've never seen before with people

858
00:38:52.260 --> 00:38:56.280
if you're cybertized, you're well and truly cybertized, and this

859
00:38:56.280 --> 00:39:00.659
manages to give a bit of, there's something in the human that can

860
00:39:00.659 --> 00:39:01.139
fight that.

861
00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:02.099
I like that.

862
00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:05.880
I think you have to give her some more interesting ending than

863
00:39:05.880 --> 00:39:09.300
just have her sawn up and turned into a cyberman.

864
00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:14.639
Like, yes, she's a scary fascist imperialist, but there is that

865
00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:18.900
sympathy for the villain that I think the best Doctor Who often

866
00:39:18.900 --> 00:39:19.559
has.

867
00:39:19.619 --> 00:39:24.420
And so giving her some role in defending the earth even after the

868
00:39:24.420 --> 00:39:25.679
Cyberman thing.

869
00:39:25.739 --> 00:39:29.340
And of course, she gets to be called Tracy Ann Cyberman from now

870
00:39:29.340 --> 00:39:32.639
until forever, I think she's occasionally referred to herself that

871
00:39:32.639 --> 00:39:33.539
way on Twitter.

872
00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:36.300
So it's a sort of enduring image.

873
00:39:36.360 --> 00:39:42.059
And we said when we did Rise of the Cyberman that the one note

874
00:39:42.059 --> 00:39:46.500
that Russell said about how the Cyberman had to look was they had

875
00:39:46.500 --> 00:39:51.360
to have that teardrop hole because the whole point of the Cyberman

876
00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:54.179
is that they don't have emotions.

877
00:39:54.239 --> 00:39:59.579
And so it was showing on their face that, well, they kind of do.

878
00:39:59.639 --> 00:40:02.760
What about the shorter citizens that they put in the same size

879
00:40:02.760 --> 00:40:03.420
armour?

880
00:40:03.480 --> 00:40:04.559
They need to peek out as well.

881
00:40:04.619 --> 00:40:06.300
That's what they...

882
00:40:06.360 --> 00:40:08.699
Apparently that's what they were for back in too.

883
00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:09.539
So, yeah.

884
00:40:18.960 --> 00:40:22.440
I like to pay off with the doctor in the glasses.

885
00:40:22.500 --> 00:40:24.239
Like, with all the void stuff.

886
00:40:24.300 --> 00:40:27.780
I like the fact that he's seeing all that as part of the plot and

887
00:40:27.780 --> 00:40:31.500
it's a subtle thing that, you know, people go on about Russell, not

888
00:40:31.500 --> 00:40:36.300
uh, he just pulls elements out of nowhere to resolve things, but

889
00:40:36.300 --> 00:40:40.980
it's all, it's all in there, built up, worked in, and when it

890
00:40:40.980 --> 00:40:44.280
comes to the four, perhaps at the time when I was watching it, I

891
00:40:44.280 --> 00:40:46.980
was much more critical, but now I really, really like that.

892
00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:48.960
Well, it's another mystery, isn't it?

893
00:40:49.019 --> 00:40:50.340
It's like what's in the sphere.

894
00:40:50.400 --> 00:40:51.900
Like, why is he wearing these?

895
00:40:51.960 --> 00:40:54.719
And none of the other characters seem to comment on why he's doing

896
00:40:54.719 --> 00:40:57.659
it, and then it becomes clear why he is.

897
00:40:57.719 --> 00:41:02.039
And it is a marvellously sort of low tech kind of thing to do, but

898
00:41:02.039 --> 00:41:05.340
it pays into the sort of ultimate payoff.

899
00:41:05.400 --> 00:41:09.360
When Russell talks about writing this, He says that he had this

900
00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:15.119
one image, which was a room with the 2 levers in it that open and

901
00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:17.880
close, the weight of the parallel universe.

902
00:41:17.940 --> 00:41:22.500
And that was the 1st thing that he kind of thought of, a little

903
00:41:22.500 --> 00:41:25.860
bit like the end of time where he's got those 2 chambers that

904
00:41:25.860 --> 00:41:28.500
someone has to be in at all times.

905
00:41:28.500 --> 00:41:32.579
And that was going to be central to the way that that story played

906
00:41:32.579 --> 00:41:33.000
out.

907
00:41:33.059 --> 00:41:40.619
And I think that that is so simple and so well done.

908
00:41:40.679 --> 00:41:44.219
And you know, he makes up the rules about the void.

909
00:41:44.280 --> 00:41:47.280
You know, you get void stuff and it sucks you into the void for

910
00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:49.139
some reason and blah, blah, blah, whatever.

911
00:41:49.199 --> 00:41:51.000
But it doesn't matter, I think.

912
00:41:51.059 --> 00:41:53.460
I think it is a good resolution.

913
00:41:53.639 --> 00:41:59.280
I think it's always interesting to hear about how a writer, what

914
00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:03.840
sparks the whole story, just those images suddenly from that

915
00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:07.619
everything else hangs off that one set piece, which is really

916
00:42:07.619 --> 00:42:08.280
cool.

917
00:42:08.340 --> 00:42:08.820
I like that.

918
00:42:08.880 --> 00:42:09.300
Yeah.

919
00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:13.440
Well, you should mention Philip Pullman's his dark materials

920
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:13.860
again.

921
00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:18.599
We did talk about this before, but the 2 leads, spoiler alert. find

922
00:42:18.599 --> 00:42:22.739
themselves separated in parallel universes, and they can no longer

923
00:42:22.739 --> 00:42:26.099
cut through from one universe to another because of the damage

924
00:42:26.099 --> 00:42:27.840
that it will cause.

925
00:42:28.019 --> 00:42:30.719
So it has, yes.

926
00:42:30.780 --> 00:42:33.840
So it has been completely lifted from that.

927
00:42:33.900 --> 00:42:35.340
But he was really pleased with that.

928
00:42:35.400 --> 00:42:37.500
And he said, I nixed stuff all the time.

929
00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:38.940
It's lovely that writers do that.

930
00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:39.840
Writers have always done that.

931
00:42:39.900 --> 00:42:41.400
Robert Holmes, you know?

932
00:42:41.460 --> 00:42:43.260
Yeah, yeah, you know, Shakespearean's.

933
00:42:43.320 --> 00:42:49.380
Didn't Philip Pullman write the forward to the writer's tale?

934
00:42:49.440 --> 00:42:52.980
Peter Russell and basically said, thanks horrific.

935
00:42:53.039 --> 00:42:53.820
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

936
00:42:53.880 --> 00:42:55.019
Thieving, gypsy.

937
00:42:55.079 --> 00:42:57.239
Like, I was really flattered.

938
00:42:57.300 --> 00:42:59.699
But this is basically his stock materials.

939
00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:03.420
Like the basic concept of this story is that love story.

940
00:43:07.260 --> 00:43:14.280
So we also get the return of Drake in this episode and that is the

941
00:43:14.280 --> 00:43:18.960
moment where the doctor and Jackie are still upstairs with Yvonne

942
00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:21.960
and a whole bunch of Cyberman and the doctor says, you know, I

943
00:43:21.960 --> 00:43:23.579
prefer an emotion like hope.

944
00:43:23.639 --> 00:43:26.219
He says that before Jake arrives.

945
00:43:26.280 --> 00:43:29.699
So he's got a 6th sense that he's going to read the script.

946
00:43:31.079 --> 00:43:34.800
But I like the fact that they're tying all the parallels world

947
00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:36.960
stuff in from earlier in the season.

948
00:43:37.019 --> 00:43:40.559
It's great to see Jake back in that role.

949
00:43:40.619 --> 00:43:44.280
I love the fact that when they talk about who's the president, you

950
00:43:44.280 --> 00:43:45.900
know, a woman called Harriet Jones.

951
00:43:45.900 --> 00:43:47.159
Watch out for her.

952
00:43:47.219 --> 00:43:48.420
Yeah, I love that.

953
00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:48.960
I love that.

954
00:43:49.019 --> 00:43:52.559
But he does say something else, which is about the fact that it's

955
00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:54.300
been 3 years.

956
00:43:54.360 --> 00:43:55.500
Yeah.

957
00:43:55.559 --> 00:43:57.059
I'm not sure about that either.

958
00:43:57.119 --> 00:43:58.199
That is sort of very strange.

959
00:43:58.260 --> 00:44:01.619
So they sort of kidnap the doctor and take him to the parallel

960
00:44:01.619 --> 00:44:04.320
world where we see another version of Torchwood, which is all sort

961
00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:05.099
of broken down.

962
00:44:05.099 --> 00:44:08.940
And the parallel world is under threat from global warming, which

963
00:44:08.940 --> 00:44:12.119
is going to sort of mean that they have to close the breach.

964
00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:16.019
If there's a torchwood in the parallel world, then there is a

965
00:44:16.019 --> 00:44:17.519
doctor in the parallel world.

966
00:44:17.579 --> 00:44:18.719
Yes.

967
00:44:18.780 --> 00:44:19.800
How about that?

968
00:44:19.860 --> 00:44:23.699
Because the doctor prompted the creation of torchwood.

969
00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:27.840
And it was mentioned in Rise of the Cyberman at the party

970
00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:28.860
someone.

971
00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:31.320
I think Pete says to someone, how are things going on George World

972
00:44:31.320 --> 00:44:31.440
yeah.

973
00:44:31.500 --> 00:44:35.039
We talked about this in our tooth and claw episode, that Russell's

974
00:44:35.039 --> 00:44:40.380
original plan for the season was that Queen Victoria would die at

975
00:44:40.380 --> 00:44:43.800
the hands of the werewolf in episode 2, and that it would create

976
00:44:43.800 --> 00:44:47.639
the alternate universe which created the side man world.

977
00:44:47.699 --> 00:44:51.119
So it would have been the break, you know, the thing that broke

978
00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:52.199
the 2 universes off.

979
00:44:52.260 --> 00:44:53.519
I've never heard about this.

980
00:44:53.579 --> 00:44:55.260
I never heard about that point.

981
00:44:55.320 --> 00:44:56.760
Never heard about too complex.

982
00:44:56.820 --> 00:44:57.719
You probably tossed it.

983
00:44:57.840 --> 00:44:58.559
Oh, I think that's it.

984
00:44:58.619 --> 00:45:01.079
I think it is too complex and too science fiction-y, and I think

985
00:45:01.079 --> 00:45:03.659
you don't need to know that. literary.

986
00:45:03.719 --> 00:45:05.039
So again, it works in a book.

987
00:45:05.099 --> 00:45:07.440
Moffatt would do and alienate the entire...

988
00:45:07.500 --> 00:45:09.960
I don't necessarily think the entire audience.

989
00:45:10.019 --> 00:45:12.300
I don't necessarily think the doctor has to be in the parallel

990
00:45:12.300 --> 00:45:13.440
universe at all.

991
00:45:13.559 --> 00:45:17.099
I think that sometimes in the parallel universe, things something

992
00:45:17.099 --> 00:45:19.559
else has happened that has made that evolve.

993
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:24.000
And, you know, because her husband knew about that this threat was

994
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:27.420
there and they had the, what's the diamond, the Colonel?

995
00:45:27.480 --> 00:45:30.539
And so he may not have died back in whenever, he might have been

996
00:45:30.539 --> 00:45:33.300
travelling with her and there might have been able to defeat this

997
00:45:33.300 --> 00:45:35.579
thing and realising we need to stop these threats.

998
00:45:35.639 --> 00:45:37.679
So I'm going to create torture because we defeated this here.

999
00:45:37.739 --> 00:45:39.900
I think there are other explanations rather than the doctor is

1000
00:45:39.900 --> 00:45:40.079
here.

1001
00:45:40.139 --> 00:45:43.500
I'm not a big head cannon fan, but my head cannon about parallel

1002
00:45:43.500 --> 00:45:48.719
universes generally is that adjacent parallel universes have

1003
00:45:48.719 --> 00:45:49.800
similar content.

1004
00:45:49.860 --> 00:45:52.860
And so when we go to a parallel of universe.

1005
00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:55.800
There's always parallel versions of our characters doing the same

1006
00:45:55.800 --> 00:45:56.159
thing.

1007
00:45:56.219 --> 00:45:59.880
We still have Greg and Petra working at the Inferno project, even

1008
00:45:59.880 --> 00:46:02.400
if it's a scientific labour camp in this reality.

1009
00:46:02.460 --> 00:46:07.260
And the reason is that the universes are adjacent and distance

1010
00:46:07.260 --> 00:46:08.880
between a parallel universe.

1011
00:46:08.940 --> 00:46:10.079
There's no document is how different they are.

1012
00:46:10.199 --> 00:46:11.519
There's no doctor in that universe.

1013
00:46:11.579 --> 00:46:11.820
No.

1014
00:46:11.880 --> 00:46:14.579
It's just a coincidence that it's the same parallel universe.

1015
00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:17.460
Maybe it isn't because, you know, there's meant to be almost

1016
00:46:17.460 --> 00:46:21.420
infinite ones depending on each small transgression of one truth

1017
00:46:21.420 --> 00:46:21.840
to another.

1018
00:46:21.900 --> 00:46:25.260
You can still read this parallel universe with the sidemen in it

1019
00:46:25.260 --> 00:46:29.940
as one, which is a republic because the queen died in the late

1020
00:46:29.940 --> 00:46:30.659
19th century.

1021
00:46:30.780 --> 00:46:33.059
And so what's happened?

1022
00:46:33.119 --> 00:46:40.559
since, um, since episode six, Mickey and Jake have been, um, like

1023
00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:45.719
they confine the cybermen to barracks, and then the sidemen all

1024
00:46:45.719 --> 00:46:46.619
just vanish.

1025
00:46:46.619 --> 00:46:49.800
And it takes them 3 years to come.

1026
00:46:49.860 --> 00:46:53.039
But is it is it 3 years from their creation by Lumic?

1027
00:46:53.159 --> 00:46:55.380
Like Lumic had already created them ages ago?

1028
00:46:55.440 --> 00:47:00.360
It's unclear because, I mean, yes, you can read it that way and

1029
00:47:00.360 --> 00:47:03.179
then, and then, you know, the timeline works.

1030
00:47:03.360 --> 00:47:06.840
But they'd already taken a torchwood.

1031
00:47:06.900 --> 00:47:11.579
They'd already initiated this plan before the doctor turns up and

1032
00:47:11.579 --> 00:47:14.400
it starts...

1033
00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:15.480
Yeah, and defeats them.

1034
00:47:15.539 --> 00:47:18.960
I guess this was the 1st time watching it that I'd ever noticed

1035
00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:21.780
that 3 years thing at all.

1036
00:47:22.139 --> 00:47:24.239
I had a todd moment.

1037
00:47:24.300 --> 00:47:25.800
I didn't remember it.

1038
00:47:25.860 --> 00:47:27.900
I had my own moment when I was going, what?

1039
00:47:27.960 --> 00:47:28.380
What?

1040
00:47:28.440 --> 00:47:32.099
But that line doesn't work because they're saying it's taken

1041
00:47:32.099 --> 00:47:32.579
them.

1042
00:47:32.639 --> 00:47:36.000
They disappeared and it's been 3 years since they disappeared.

1043
00:47:36.059 --> 00:47:36.659
Isn't that it?

1044
00:47:36.719 --> 00:47:40.079
No, I think I think they say it's been a few months since they

1045
00:47:40.079 --> 00:47:41.639
since they disappeared.

1046
00:47:41.760 --> 00:47:47.159
Look, I mean, the whole thing, you know, like I ragged on Moffat

1047
00:47:47.159 --> 00:47:50.579
in our girl in the fireplace episode for creating a world that

1048
00:47:50.579 --> 00:47:54.539
only exists in order to make that particular plot possible.

1049
00:47:54.599 --> 00:47:58.380
Here, I think all of the stuff about the void and the void rules

1050
00:47:58.380 --> 00:47:58.920
and stuff.

1051
00:47:58.980 --> 00:48:03.360
Russell definitely puts dialogue in to justify pretty much

1052
00:48:03.360 --> 00:48:08.880
everything that's going on, but I don't think it holds up to very

1053
00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:10.980
sort of serious screw.

1054
00:48:11.099 --> 00:48:11.579
Scrutiny.

1055
00:48:11.639 --> 00:48:14.940
So it still works as a TV show, so it still does its job.

1056
00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:20.460
I've just realised the difference between Moffat and our Russell.

1057
00:48:20.519 --> 00:48:25.019
It's the one writes for television and the other one writes in a

1058
00:48:25.019 --> 00:48:25.800
literary manner.

1059
00:48:25.860 --> 00:48:26.940
He writes for books.

1060
00:48:27.059 --> 00:48:30.420
Or you could say for film, but actually, no, it's a literary

1061
00:48:30.420 --> 00:48:30.840
mind.

1062
00:48:30.900 --> 00:48:33.179
All the conceits and concepts that you get that have to be

1063
00:48:33.179 --> 00:48:36.239
truncated into 45 minutes for Moffat stories, which is why the

1064
00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:37.199
public gets annoyed.

1065
00:48:37.260 --> 00:48:41.579
Actually, belong in something that needs a full day to sit and

1066
00:48:41.579 --> 00:48:43.139
read if you're going to sit down properly.

1067
00:48:43.199 --> 00:48:46.739
Have you read his novelisation of Day of the Doctor?

1068
00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:49.980
Not as yet you like. incredibly good.

1069
00:48:50.039 --> 00:48:51.179
I'm not surprised.

1070
00:48:51.239 --> 00:48:53.099
He's a good writer's writer.

1071
00:48:53.159 --> 00:48:56.820
Russell gets that he's writing for the medium of his 1st love

1072
00:48:56.820 --> 00:48:57.840
which is soap opera.

1073
00:48:57.900 --> 00:48:58.679
Yeah.

1074
00:48:58.739 --> 00:49:02.039
And that's why he keeps a science fiction comprehensible and tries

1075
00:49:02.039 --> 00:49:08.699
not to kind of make anything sort of too demanding.

1076
00:49:08.760 --> 00:49:13.260
And I think that's okay because here, you know, parallel universes

1077
00:49:13.260 --> 00:49:16.320
are not massively interesting, to be honest, except insofar as

1078
00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:17.039
they give.

1079
00:49:17.099 --> 00:49:18.539
The actors.

1080
00:49:18.599 --> 00:49:19.559
Yeah, yeah.

1081
00:49:19.619 --> 00:49:22.380
Give us a chance to see Zeppelins and Jackie being mean to the

1082
00:49:22.380 --> 00:49:22.860
staff.

1083
00:49:23.760 --> 00:49:29.460
But what is important is, of course, Billy's departure from the

1084
00:49:29.460 --> 00:49:29.760
show.

1085
00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:36.119
And so we have what we need in order to strand really in a

1086
00:49:36.119 --> 00:49:40.380
parallel universe, I think, and that's the main thing. going on

1087
00:49:40.380 --> 00:49:43.199
here. and quite right too.

1088
00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:53.760
Should we talk about the final ending?

1089
00:49:53.760 --> 00:49:55.500
With the cliffhanger?

1090
00:49:55.559 --> 00:49:58.019
Oh, yes, I think we probably should.

1091
00:49:58.079 --> 00:49:59.460
Yeah, no, no, we haven't done that.

1092
00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:01.980
I'm still sitting here in all this tule and no one's mentioned

1093
00:50:01.980 --> 00:50:02.219
me.

1094
00:50:02.280 --> 00:50:03.659
That's right.

1095
00:50:03.719 --> 00:50:06.599
So this was a massive surprise.

1096
00:50:06.659 --> 00:50:07.440
Thank you what?

1097
00:50:07.500 --> 00:50:09.179
I always dress like this on the occasion.

1098
00:50:09.239 --> 00:50:09.719
You know that?

1099
00:50:09.780 --> 00:50:11.280
Do you, Richard?

1100
00:50:11.340 --> 00:50:13.500
It's a bit flouncy, isn't it?

1101
00:50:13.619 --> 00:50:16.019
Just when you've been put through the emotional ringer.

1102
00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:19.739
And you think it's all like it's like, okay, I just need a

1103
00:50:19.739 --> 00:50:21.840
breather and take this all in.

1104
00:50:21.900 --> 00:50:25.619
All of a sudden the doctor looks up from the console and there's

1105
00:50:25.619 --> 00:50:26.219
Catherine Tank?

1106
00:50:26.280 --> 00:50:30.719
There's a bride who's screaming and screeching at him.

1107
00:50:30.780 --> 00:50:32.340
It's brilliant, isn't it?

1108
00:50:32.400 --> 00:50:36.480
Because you've got to give Billy Piper a final ending, but you

1109
00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:39.480
mustn't make anyone think that the show is over.

1110
00:50:39.539 --> 00:50:40.860
That's the important thing.

1111
00:50:40.920 --> 00:50:43.260
This is such a final episode.

1112
00:50:43.320 --> 00:50:48.420
You have to show that there's some way forward to continue having

1113
00:50:48.420 --> 00:50:50.940
Doctor Who after Billy Piper's gone.

1114
00:50:51.000 --> 00:50:55.260
And if this does it so well, Catherine Tate is massive at this

1115
00:50:55.260 --> 00:50:56.460
point, isn't she?

1116
00:50:56.519 --> 00:50:57.239
Yes.

1117
00:50:57.239 --> 00:51:01.739
So that's huge and she's very Catherine Tatey sort of straight

1118
00:51:01.739 --> 00:51:02.219
away.

1119
00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:08.880
We will later get to know what an incredibly subtle and gifted

1120
00:51:08.880 --> 00:51:10.500
dramatic performer she is.

1121
00:51:10.559 --> 00:51:12.239
She's really, really something.

1122
00:51:12.300 --> 00:51:17.039
But here she's doing sort of screeching Catherine Tate stick.

1123
00:51:17.099 --> 00:51:19.920
And I imagine that there were any number of very, very serious

1124
00:51:19.920 --> 00:51:22.139
Doctor Who fans who thought that that was terrible.

1125
00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:25.800
They're probably really angry and ready not to watch the next

1126
00:51:25.800 --> 00:51:26.159
episode.

1127
00:51:26.219 --> 00:51:29.699
I didn't know who she was, but it was like, 0 my goodness, what

1128
00:51:29.699 --> 00:51:32.820
like, I've got to watch the next episode to see how has this event

1129
00:51:32.820 --> 00:51:33.360
occurred.

1130
00:51:33.480 --> 00:51:38.159
Yeah, and we do get Doctor Who will return at Christmas in the

1131
00:51:38.159 --> 00:51:39.300
Runaway Bride.

1132
00:51:39.360 --> 00:51:42.780
So we get the title and things in the closing credits.

1133
00:51:42.840 --> 00:51:45.239
So it is it is pretty great.

1134
00:51:45.239 --> 00:51:47.760
And I guess we'll...

1135
00:51:47.760 --> 00:51:49.860
I think it says with the runaway bride, because they don't work

1136
00:51:49.860 --> 00:51:50.760
like me and James.

1137
00:51:59.820 --> 00:52:02.219
All right, we'll do our picks of the week.

1138
00:52:02.280 --> 00:52:04.139
Who'd like to start off?

1139
00:52:04.199 --> 00:52:05.699
Todd.

1140
00:52:05.760 --> 00:52:07.320
Okay, I guess I'll start off.

1141
00:52:07.380 --> 00:52:11.400
I'm going to pick the season 12 Blu-ray box set and you go and you

1142
00:52:11.400 --> 00:52:14.760
watch the Doctor 2 Classic Revenge of the Cybermen when the

1143
00:52:14.760 --> 00:52:15.900
Cybermen were really scary.

1144
00:52:16.860 --> 00:52:20.159
I'm biting with armoured armadillos.

1145
00:52:21.480 --> 00:52:25.920
That went all necky over Sarah Jane, yes. was scary.

1146
00:52:26.039 --> 00:52:30.000
It was scary. only because of Liz's fantastic response of, oh

1147
00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:30.539
mother.

1148
00:52:30.599 --> 00:52:31.920
Pure panic, yeah.

1149
00:52:31.980 --> 00:52:34.860
No, she was a bit like Graham Garden with, you know, like a little

1150
00:52:34.860 --> 00:52:38.940
bowl, you know, like she's there making it kind of attack her neck

1151
00:52:38.940 --> 00:52:40.679
because it's a sort of big puppet.

1152
00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:45.179
And there's also the Tracy and Cyberman of the Vogans as well.

1153
00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:46.199
Yes.

1154
00:52:46.320 --> 00:52:47.760
Yes.

1155
00:52:47.760 --> 00:52:51.480
Well, there aren't there aren't very many women in that story at

1156
00:52:51.480 --> 00:52:52.139
all, are there?

1157
00:52:52.199 --> 00:52:53.579
All that season??

1158
00:52:53.639 --> 00:52:54.420
No.

1159
00:52:55.199 --> 00:52:56.639
Richard?

1160
00:52:56.760 --> 00:52:59.820
Oh, well, again, I've cited him last time, but I like Michael

1161
00:52:59.820 --> 00:53:04.139
Powell, and if I was going to look at something that reminds me of

1162
00:53:04.139 --> 00:53:06.300
Graham Harper's direction, but gets people.

1163
00:53:06.360 --> 00:53:12.360
I can't go further than Deborah Carr and Roger Live Z and um, oh

1164
00:53:12.360 --> 00:53:14.099
gosh, who was Anton Walbrook?

1165
00:53:14.159 --> 00:53:17.099
I had to look it up And it's actually a lovely film made in the

1166
00:53:17.099 --> 00:53:20.099
middle of the wall, Life and Death of Colonel Blimp, and it has

1167
00:53:20.099 --> 00:53:23.940
Deborah Carr playing 3 different female characters, kind of like

1168
00:53:23.940 --> 00:53:26.460
kind hearts and coronets, but not tin drag.

1169
00:53:26.519 --> 00:53:28.380
And it's lovely.

1170
00:53:28.440 --> 00:53:31.019
Michael Powell made Peeping Tom.

1171
00:53:31.079 --> 00:53:34.920
He's a really expressionistic out there director, but it just has

1172
00:53:34.920 --> 00:53:35.579
moments of this.

1173
00:53:35.639 --> 00:53:37.920
There's the military feel or the sidemen thing, and then there's

1174
00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:42.360
that really emotional sense of, I'm definitely sure that this is

1175
00:53:42.360 --> 00:53:45.900
one of the predicates for this for this story.

1176
00:53:45.960 --> 00:53:48.539
And, you know, and British film is worth looking at.

1177
00:53:48.599 --> 00:53:52.199
And it also had cost the equivalent of £2000000, which was a lot

1178
00:53:52.199 --> 00:53:53.039
in 1943.

1179
00:53:53.340 --> 00:53:54.119
So it's lovely to look at.

1180
00:53:54.179 --> 00:53:55.139
And it's Deborah Carr.

1181
00:53:55.199 --> 00:53:55.800
Dip a car.

1182
00:53:55.860 --> 00:53:57.719
And we own her because she's in Casino Royale.

1183
00:53:58.800 --> 00:54:00.300
James.

1184
00:54:00.539 --> 00:54:04.980
Look, I'd hate to break with tradition.

1185
00:54:05.039 --> 00:54:09.840
I tend to recommend big Finnish stories because unlike some of the

1186
00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:11.639
people in this room, I actually quite enjoy them.

1187
00:54:12.239 --> 00:54:14.159
I love them, yeah.

1188
00:54:14.219 --> 00:54:20.699
But big finish have got Tracy and Openman back for a number of

1189
00:54:20.699 --> 00:54:22.320
audio.

1190
00:54:22.920 --> 00:54:24.960
That's not fair.

1191
00:54:25.440 --> 00:54:30.059
But they got her back for 2 sort of miniseries.

1192
00:54:30.119 --> 00:54:34.139
One's called Before the Fall. and like they're called Tortured One

1193
00:54:34.139 --> 00:54:34.920
before the fall.

1194
00:54:35.099 --> 00:54:44.340
And they bring back Yanto, pre-torchwood, um, and...

1195
00:54:44.340 --> 00:54:45.659
Do they bring back his cyber girlfriend?

1196
00:54:45.719 --> 00:54:46.199
No.

1197
00:54:46.260 --> 00:54:47.460
Oh, the shame.

1198
00:54:47.820 --> 00:54:50.039
That's a continuity problem.

1199
00:54:50.099 --> 00:54:51.239
Yeah.

1200
00:54:51.300 --> 00:54:52.380
Well maybe they do.

1201
00:54:52.679 --> 00:54:55.139
I'm not going to spoil that.

1202
00:54:55.199 --> 00:54:57.599
And do they bring back one after the fall?

1203
00:54:58.199 --> 00:55:03.840
And the next one is called machines. and is take on the war

1204
00:55:03.840 --> 00:55:04.380
machines.

1205
00:55:04.440 --> 00:55:05.159
Wow.

1206
00:55:05.219 --> 00:55:08.880
So they bring them back in the 21st century.

1207
00:55:08.940 --> 00:55:09.900
Really?

1208
00:55:09.900 --> 00:55:12.360
Do they go, Yvonne Hartmann is required?

1209
00:55:12.420 --> 00:55:13.260
Yes.

1210
00:55:13.739 --> 00:55:16.739
Now I need to bloody go and listen to them.

1211
00:55:16.739 --> 00:55:20.219
Don't redesign them to look like the cleaners.

1212
00:55:20.699 --> 00:55:23.099
Oh, this gets better and better.

1213
00:55:23.159 --> 00:55:24.960
Highly recommended.

1214
00:55:25.019 --> 00:55:26.280
This is highly recommended.

1215
00:55:26.340 --> 00:55:27.900
Actually, no, I actually would go and listen to that.

1216
00:55:27.960 --> 00:55:29.760
But no, she's great in them.

1217
00:55:29.820 --> 00:55:34.679
They've also done a couple of single episodes, ones where she's

1218
00:55:34.679 --> 00:55:37.800
popped up and she just, she's fantastic.

1219
00:55:37.860 --> 00:55:43.739
It makes you wish they'd actually maybe made a series based on

1220
00:55:43.739 --> 00:55:47.940
Tortured one instead of Tortured three.

1221
00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:49.619
So Nathan, what's your pick of the week?

1222
00:55:49.679 --> 00:55:52.380
So I'm going to pick something that I've picked before.

1223
00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:56.880
Friend of the podcast, Johnny Spandrel, has been doing a blog at

1224
00:55:56.880 --> 00:56:01.800
randomhunus.com, and he has been watching Doctor Who stories in

1225
00:56:01.800 --> 00:56:02.699
random order.

1226
00:56:02.760 --> 00:56:04.559
So that's the opposite of what we do.

1227
00:56:04.619 --> 00:56:08.460
And he's been finding something completely new to say about each

1228
00:56:08.460 --> 00:56:11.699
story as he does it, which is also really the complete opposite of

1229
00:56:11.699 --> 00:56:12.239
what we do.

1230
00:56:12.300 --> 00:56:15.900
And he is a very clever writer.

1231
00:56:15.960 --> 00:56:20.639
I'm constantly impressed by just new things that I've never

1232
00:56:20.639 --> 00:56:23.099
thought of when I read his essays.

1233
00:56:23.159 --> 00:56:27.179
They're really fun and he's very, very close to the end.

1234
00:56:27.239 --> 00:56:28.679
He's been doing it for a while.

1235
00:56:28.739 --> 00:56:31.260
He's about to run out of Doctor Who stories.

1236
00:56:31.320 --> 00:56:34.980
And so I recommend everyone to check that out.

1237
00:56:35.039 --> 00:56:36.900
That's at randomhunus.com.

1238
00:57:04.920 --> 00:57:08.820
Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week.

1239
00:57:08.940 --> 00:57:11.940
It will give you a week to recover from all the emotional turmoil

1240
00:57:11.940 --> 00:57:15.659
and we'll be back after that for our Series 2 retrospective.

1241
00:57:15.780 --> 00:57:19.739
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1242
00:57:19.739 --> 00:57:22.619
and you can keep up with us at FlightthroughEntirety.com, flight

1243
00:57:22.619 --> 00:57:26.219
through entirety on Facebook and at FTE podcast on Twitter.

1244
00:57:26.280 --> 00:57:30.480
You can also find our series 11 flashcast, Jody IntoTara, at

1245
00:57:30.480 --> 00:57:34.860
JodyintoTara.com, and at Jody InterTara on Twitter, and our James

1246
00:57:34.860 --> 00:57:38.639
Bond Commentary podcast, Bondfinger at Bondfinger.com, at

1247
00:57:38.639 --> 00:57:41.760
Bondfinger on Facebook, and at Bondfingercast on Twitter.

1248
00:57:41.820 --> 00:57:46.199
Until next time, remember that it's been an emotional week for all

1249
00:57:46.199 --> 00:57:46.860
of us.

1250
00:57:46.920 --> 00:57:49.559
So make sure that you take good care of yourself.

1251
00:57:49.619 --> 00:57:53.820
Have a bath or a massage or do a season 20 marathon.

1252
00:57:53.880 --> 00:57:55.019
You deserve it.

1253
00:57:55.079 --> 00:57:57.360
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1254
00:57:57.420 --> 00:57:58.079
Good night.

1255
00:57:58.139 --> 00:57:59.159
See you soon.

1256
00:57:59.219 --> 00:57:59.760
Good then.

1257
00:58:02.880 --> 00:58:05.400
That was Flight through Entirety, starring Todd, but it'll be

1258
00:58:05.400 --> 00:58:07.559
Nathan, probably James Selwood and Richard Stone.

1259
00:58:07.619 --> 00:58:10.679
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings performance by Jane

1260
00:58:10.679 --> 00:58:11.340
Orberg.

1261
00:58:11.400 --> 00:58:14.940
This episode, that which is missing, was recorded on the 28th of

1262
00:58:14.940 --> 00:58:17.760
April 2019 and released on the 9th of June.

1263
00:58:21.059 --> 00:58:24.659
We would like to apologise for this week's single fleeting

1264
00:58:24.659 --> 00:58:25.920
reference to Brexit.

1265
00:58:25.980 --> 00:58:29.099
We know you love to tune in to our hot political takes, and we

1266
00:58:29.099 --> 00:58:32.579
promise to make up for it next week with a hilariously prolonged

1267
00:58:32.579 --> 00:58:34.679
bit about the size of Donald Trump's hands.

1268
00:58:35.880 --> 00:58:40.559
You can also find our series 11 flashcast Jody IntoTera at Jody

1269
00:58:40.559 --> 00:58:43.559
IntoTera.com and at Jody Into...

1270
00:58:43.559 --> 00:58:45.179
Me.

1271
00:58:45.239 --> 00:58:49.800
You can also find our series 11 flashcast, Jody into Tara at Jody

1272
00:58:49.800 --> 00:58:52.920
into Tara.com and at Jody into Tara.

1273
00:58:53.519 --> 00:58:55.380
This is the tag.

1274
00:58:55.440 --> 00:58:58.980
This is the Turk..

1275
00:58:59.039 --> 00:59:02.699
I just cut out the recording from last week and drop it in.

1276
00:59:03.900 --> 00:59:05.579
Like, good.

1277
00:59:07.139 --> 00:59:09.466
You can also find out.