Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety
the only Doctor Who podcast, walking through the marketplace on
some planet a 1000000000 miles from Earth.
But we're not flight through entirety, not anymore.
We're not even human.
I'm Nathan.
I'm James.
I'm Todd.
Just a supernova getting sucked out of a black hole at the
moment.
Happy election day.
It's been one hell of a rollicking ride over the last 13 weeks.
We've loved, we've lost, and we've been haunted by terrifying
mental images of Elton Pope's love life.
But we've recovered now and we're ready to summarise what we've
learned.
Welcome to our series 2 retrospective.
So, a little while ago, Nathan and I guested on the Doctor Who
Show, and David Kitchen came up with this method of different
topics that he put them on little pieces of paper and we had to
pick.
So I've done this for today, and we've got 3 different topics that
the gentlemen here are going to pick from.
We've got the cast, Snog Mario Void, and a series 2 in 3 bowls.
And we're going to be picking from those for the 1st 3 quarters of
this retrospective and then we've got it's a wrap, which is
obviously more about mummification.
The end of the season.
So as the most recent member of the podcast, James, I'd like you
to pick first.
And one, you just go into...
Go for the filth.
Oh, you want to snob marry a boy, do you?
Go straight for the filth.
Well, you do know me.
Okay, well, you can go with Snog Mario void is in that bowl, so
you need to just find something.
They're like tiny fortune cookies, dear listener.
Delicious, crispy and full of foreboding.
Snog Mario void.
Mrs. Moore, Ada Scott or Maeve Griffiths.
I don't know who Maeve Griffin is.
Okay, Maeve Griffiths.
Oh, the children are disappearing.
Oh no.
From, uh, fear her.
That was very good.
I think it'd have to be Mrs. Moore because she's just so
fabulous.
It's not her?
You're snogging Mrs. Moore?
worried about the tea.
Yes, yes.
Who are you avoiding?
And therefore you're marrying Ida Scott.
Well, you would.
Very good.
And she has a lovely religion.
Her sort of quantum Presbyterian religion.
They I'm sure they have a lovely ceremony.
I just see this as an exciting, you know, bar mini convention to
your mother convention.
Ah, the wives of series 2.
The grannies of Doctor Who.
They're not far off, Tom.
Richard.
Why don't you pick from the black?
The black pole.
Yes.
I'll put the black pigeon on my head.
Stupid boy turtles.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Twisted boy.
Why didn't they play in like, hello, Colin Neal.
Why didn't they play Enlightenment, like an episode of Dad's
Army?
It was all there.
It would have honestly. still podcasting about it.
I'm really blind.
No, it says here.
Rosemary's baby, what does it say?
Best adversary.
Yes, best adversary of this season.
Oh, well, I want to say Billy Piper's teeth, but they haven't
reached apotheosis yet.
That's such a good question, isn't it?
As in the very, very best.
Well, it depends on who you are.
As a little child, I actually think the graphite squiggle monster
was just such a genius concept for a tiny child.
You're never going to forget that if you're under 10 and watching
that episode.
Um, but I think the best adversary of the year has to be bitchy
dalek sick.
Just because I hadn't seen, I hadn't seen dynasty.
I haven't seen Aaron spelling in wear cheese and shoulder pads
before as the Scarovian in Promada.
They're freaking bitches.
God, I love them.
I have to default to the obvious, of course, and she's all in
black Matt, and Josh, she's gorgeous.
I'm surprised that Maureen Lippman doesn't get a look in here.
She should.
If she, perhaps if she'd just done something more with it.
I know, maybe someone else should have that.
And but it's really, what I'm thinking is, who do you take away
with you in memory?
What has really struck?
So I'm thinking of point of difference.
So again, doing the Dior little black, little black after 5 number
and just changing expectations.
We've seen Russell do this with everything.
I love Mark Gatis's stories.
I just wish that they actually got produced on screen as, you know
in the full 4 hours that they need.
It is this thing, though, where we spend our entire childhood
wondering what would happen if the Daleks and Cyberman had a
fight.
And what we didn't realise would be that it would be just a sort
of giant slapdown bitch fight.
It's a dynasty end of season in the duck pond.
So yeah, so I love Maureen.
But no, I think as if I were a child watching this, it would have
been that.
But you're very right.
But like, you're very true when you say that.
What do you, what instantly comes to mind?
And like for me, it's like the clockwork people from Girl on the
Fireplace and the wolf from Tooth and Claw.
But as an adversary for me, it has to be the beast and its various
incarnations in that two-parter is the adversary of the year for
me, right?
When I sit down and really analyse and think about it.
It's mainly for Gabriel Will's voice.
Yeah, it's wonderful, isn't it?
But the CG monster looks pretty good as well.
What about you, James?
Who's your adversary?
I think the CG Monster looks good in this better than it did next
season in our Torchwood.
Yeah.
Sorry.
Unfortunate series one.
Yeah.
Like, ooh, we've got this CG monster leftover.
Let's paint it great.
Look, I would probably have to agree with you with Dalek Sec.
Um, just...
Yeah, it's the 1st memory, but because it's so tattooed on the
frontal lobes.
When I was rewatching the series 2 finale, like I was quoting
those lines in my head. my husband.
But anyway, like I said, I felt like I, you know, not that I was a
kid when I was watching I was in my 20s.
But the inner child, like the thing that sparks the inner child in
me is the thing that makes me remember a Doctor Who, Billy. used
to watch it.
Yeah.
I felt like I was, you know, an 8 year old and that was just the
best thing in the world to me.
Like the sort of SmackDown, you know, you are better at dying.
Pest control.
Yes, right too.
Excellent.
All right.
Please pick from the far bowl.
This one over here, which is this is about the cast.
The cast.
Oh, Sarah Jane Smith and K9.
I found myself absolutely touched by K9's return and bawling my
eyes out at the end.
Resurrection?
Yeah, yeah.
But I do have some reservations about that episode and about Sarah
Jane Smith's depiction.
And um, I was chatting to Johnny Spandrel about this, who is not a
fan of this episode.
And he really dislikes the way that Sarah and Rose fight, the way
that she's turned into sort of, you know, the doctor's
girlfriend.
And the way that she is a bit of a loser.
And I think we talked about that in the episode.
We did, and I had certain reservations too, because I always felt
that she would go on to bigger and better things, but instead it's
like she spent 20 years in a rut.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, she does go on to bigger and better things at the end and
we know that that's what happens.
And her performance, you know, there are times where it's still
that sort of performative 1970s performance which doesn't quite
fit into 21st century Doctor Who.
But there's times when it is really, really touching and
affecting.
And I remember at the time thinking that maybe they were cutting
around her a little bit, but, you know, her reaction to canine's
death is so, so heartfelt and so wonderful.
And, you know, like I tear up every time I see it.
I mean, you know, she was my 1st companion.
I will always love her and, you know, I still was terribly excited
to see her back.
Look, I agree with everything that you just said.
One of the things that I had a problem with was the fact that from
here on in, she's always Sarah Jane to everybody, and in my head, I
don't know, in my head cannon.
She always introduced herself as Sarah Jane Smith, right?
And she was called Ms. Smith, but often when the doctor was
talking to her, she'd just be Sarah, unless he was on death's door
when he would call her Sarah Jane.
So I actually really like in the episode, pretendant actually does
say Sarah at one point.
And it always just grates, I mean, when everybody just calls us
Sarah Jane all the time.
Like it's just a minor thing, but it's just something from my
childhood that I think is a bit of a rewrite.
In fact, um, Gita, Rani's mother keeps calling her Sarah in uh, the
Sarah Jane Adventures and Sarah keeps correcting her.
So she's obviously decided to go with Sarah Jane at some point, but
maybe I'm bringing that into it a bit.
I wanted to talk about K9 because it's something that when we were
discussing this episode, I think we overlooked a lot more because
we were talking very much about Liz and that dynamic.
And it was really lovely to have him back.
And I would have liked it if when the doctor had started him up
you would have got halloo master.
Like the David Brierly voiced by accident.
And then and then he goes, oh, no, that's the wrong setting and
then gone to John Leeson. would have been kind of nice.
Sorry, I just thought I'd throw that in.
Let's re-edit it.
James?
Yeah, I think we raised this at the time when we did school
reunion.
Yeah, I think we all had a problem with the Sarah being bitter and
heartbroken by her sort of parting from the doctor and mourning
that relationship for 20 years.
I think you can wreck on that because The parting of them in had a
fear is not something she will, you know, she doesn't want to
leave.
They have a they have a bit of a hissy fit to each other.
Well, she has a hissy fit at him because he's ignoring her and
then and then he throws her out the Tartars, is, you know, like
you can kind of understand that.
But I think I raised this at the time, the, the, you know, they
wanted to make her an alcoholic.
Yeah, yeah.
I think what we got was so much better.
I think that would have probably killed the character.
You may not have actually got a spinoff series if you've gone with
it.
The 1st time I saw this was sitting next to, as I'm doing right
now, to the lovely Todd.
And we saw it at the group viewing it.
And, well, I mean, just it's very hard to see through a windscreen
visor of tears, isn't it?
But I remember we were talking about this and certainly I felt at
the time watching this.
I love how Russell always writes himself into his into those he
most loves.
So of course she was going to be an alcoholic and washed up and
embittered.
No, I loved the embitteredness because again, as you say, none of
us were happy as small children with the way she was left.
And we all thought, of course she's bitter and angry, and of
course she had everything and she was dropped.
She was booted out.
And there was a more fraternal relationship between them.
They were never the, the, the relationship that Rose has.
But then again, I really love Liz's take on the slightly Mary
Poppins school mom, take that she takes.
Oh, good for you, tiger.
And she says to no, she really handles Billy Piper very, very
nicely, as in, you know, both as an actress and as a character.
They have a lovely way of working off each other.
It was really good to see for someone who hadn't worked on
television for so long, just how quickly Liz got to the pace and
picked it up.
I was a bit worried for her.
That 1st time when Todd and I was sitting there together watching
it, we just couldn't really see it because it was all just, oh
this is just everything.
It really was. was everything.
To have you, to have you such a big part of who you loved as a
little child to come back on screen is very powerful.
It's you know, it's one of the biggest acting jobs she's had in 20
years.
And you can you can see that, like you say, it's that sort of
presentational 70s acting style.
But she picks it up really quickly.
Very quickly.
By the end of that story, I think she's kind of got the pace of
it.
And then when she gets her own series, she's amazing.
Yeah, she's back in the swing, you can see that journey in that
episode.
I think really on a personal level.
It's more about the fact that, you know, in the end, she got her
reward.
Yeah.
And I think that's really it touches you.
You did, yeah.
Okay, it's my turn to choose.
And guess what?
It's up to snog, Barry, avoid.
I was trying to avoid this, needle.
Just have to snuggle Marritt instead.
Okay, here we go.
Snog barrier avoid.
Gareth, Matt, or Christian Arthur.
Bracket, the guard from the Impossible Pianus.
He had a name?
No, that's his real name, not.
I looked it up.
So I guess, come on, Todd, you're snogging.
I'm stogging.
Which one's Matt?
I even wrote this and I forgot which one's the dark-haired one?
I thought the dark-haired one was prettier than the other one, so
I'm calling him Matt and the other one, Gareth.
All right, so the less pretty one I'm avoiding.
Yep.
I shall obviously snore Gareth, and then, well, the guard in the
Boston Planet looks like I'm marrying him for all the right
reasons.
Non-stop access to that, don't you, Todd?
Yep.
Gareth is Adiola's boyfriend.
Right.
And Matt is the one that they lure in afterwards.
I think.
Well, I've answered the question.
And I can't believe I cannot believe people.
I pulled this one out of them.
Two relatively pretty boys, lucky you.
Was the guard attractive?
Can't remember.
Yes.
Have another listen to that episode.
You need to...
Oh, is he the one with the package?
Apparently.
All right, James, you're up. and you are up to the black bowl here
on series.
I'm reaching deep into the ball.
Inter Valentine dials, black bowl.
Why did we choose this bowl?
It's a big black ball.
I have picked out favourite moment from the season.
Look, I think my favourite moment from the season, just because it
has so much emotional residence, because we've grown to love her
and I'm probably stealing your favourite moment, Nathan. is the
moment when Jackie and alternate Pete.
Oh, God. in the series finale.
And, and there's that whole sort of comical interplay and then
they just end up sort of running and jumping into each other's
arms and like, it's wonderful.
It's just beautiful. such an amazing.
I was in tears the whole time. and they're both, they're both
saying to one another, no, you're not my real wife, you're not my
real husband. this isn't going to happen.
And you're kind of thinking that's such a stupid science fiction
concede who cares for God's sake.
And just while you're thinking that they run into one another's
arms.
It's beautiful.
And it fixes Rose's family.
You know, there's a wound at the heart of Rose's backstory, which
is her father died when she was little and the doctor fixes it
inadvertently, but he does leave her better than he found her.
Nathan?
Well, I might choose another Jackie moment then in that case.
And it is Jackie and Elton at the Laundret in Love and Monsters.
And it's a wonderful scene because Elton's gone in with
instructions from Victor Kennedy about how to strike up a
conversation with a normal human being.
And as he's thinking about all of the instructions in his head
Jackie actually does it, each one of them 1st because Jackie is a
normal human being who knows how to have relationships with normal
human beings.
And that whole scene and much of that episode was written in order
to give Jackie Moore to do.
And I think Brendan may have said that the original plan was like
not to have Jackie at the end of the season in our universe, that
she wouldn't be there, but Russell definitely definitely wanted to
give her more to do in Love and Monsters, and she's wonderful in
it.
And that scene is so funny and just so wonderful.
And the 2 of them just spark off each other.
And it's a showcase for Camille.
So I'll go with that.
Excellent.
Richard?
Well, there's never been anybody else, has there?
There's been a reason, Delphon eyebrow.
If we're talking about most memorable moment, yeah, I agree.
It does have to be the supporting cast, he also gets, Russell gets
in, it's a standard Broadway way of writing that your subcast, you
know, your, your Karen and Sean, Jack, yeah, Jack, from, you know
your Bcast is always more fun.
You know, your Niles and Daphne are always more fun than Frasier
who's a scary man anyway.
And back this year, weirdly.
So, yes, anyone, any of the bees.
I love the arc of Mickey.
Yeah.
Really enjoyed that.
But yes, whenever Camille came on screen.
I feel like as if I've been kind of pontooned into this by
Nathan's constant glorification of, and rightly so.
But no, it just, it highlights, you know, it makes us look at
this.
But yes, it is.
It's probably.
I mean, it's a lovely moments where they chuck over those
undeniably ostentatious urns in Satan Pitt. you think, well, they
had to go anyway.
It's dreadful.
But no, I do agree that Camille coming back in that little moment
you know, as I just said, well, hardly anyone else.
It really works, really works.
Again, for a lovely sense of he understands what people are
watching these things for.
It really does actually feel like an operetto, or maybe even
elevate that, but it could work as a Broadway show.
Russell's Doctor Who under the tenet area.
It is.
Literally kinky boots out for heels.
These are all wonderful moments and I agree with all of them.
But I do feel that there are 2 moments that I really touch my
heart.
One is goodbye, Sarah Jane Smith.
And that whole sequence is just...
It just warms my heart when it appears from behind the...
Yeah, but leading up to that and that way...
It's that thing where the doctor doesn't want to say goodbye.
He wants to brush it off and she won't let him.
She makes him say goodbye properly and it's so good.
She's great in it.
And it also works that she's older than him too, and she has some
kind of authority over him.
So she won't let him get away with that sort of the crap that he
got away with back when he was Tom Baker.
She makes him say a proper goodbye to her and it's wonderful.
And it's wonderful also because Dave Attendant's such a fan of the
series, you know, and there's a lot of subtexts there in all of
his scenes with her.
That is just an amazing.
I don't think he's acting at all.
The other moment is at the end of Army of Ghosts, when the Daleks
actually appear, just suddenly appear, because you know that it's
them or you're 99% certain, but then when it's confirmed, your
brain as a fan is going, oh, my God, they're doing Daleks in the
side in the one story.
Yeah.
I think the music queue, the Dalek music queue appears just
seconds before the Daleks do.
How we didn't realise, I don't remember when I realised during the
episode that it was going to be them.
But it's a giant Dalek ball.
But I didn't make that connection.
No, they 1st watched...
I've only just made the connection now.
I just kind of went, like rewatching it for the podcast.
I went, Benmark.
How did I not see that?
It's literally a Dalek fear coloured in the same way.
It's so it's so bloody.
So ballsy.
But at the time, at the time, like, when the Simon's saying, it's
not our thing and that's the thing, and it's a big round ball
thing, like, I remember going to myself, it's got to be the Daleks
it's got to be the Daleks, wanting it to be the Daleks.
It's actually the same moment, isn't it?
Where in, um, is it parting of the ways where the Emperor Dalek
says, no bad wolf has nothing to do with us?
And you kind of go, wait, there's a mystery we thought we had that
sorted and now it's opened up again.
And the fact that the ball has nothing to do with the cyberman is
the same beat, isn't it?
Like Russell does that very well at the end of most of his seasons
that we've been leading you down this path.
Flip.
Yeah, he'll do it next year.
We'll talk about it then.
Yeah, probably in a much more successful way with series three.
I would have liked to have been a giant egg and a giant cybermat
come out. fantastic.
All right, let's move on.
Richard, you're up next.
It's imagining how to go for the next.
Maybe it's a giant yeti control scene.
Oh, why can't I stop it.
No amount of harpic or get rid of them, will it?
I'm really keen to have Jody menaced by the furry beasts from
below the rim.
There's an episode title.
Never needed one.
All right, now I have with my with my roomy old eyes.
Oh, I'm happy.
It says Jackie and Mickey.
I put the, well, we've just really discussed that, but if you
want...
Well, just to very quickly, again, what I'm saying about the
Broadway simulancra of this, which is actually based on Jewish
musical traditions, our French Joseph Toltz has written on this
that really the whole thing where we can see Doctor Who this
season is actually based very much from very old stories.
And in fact, really old stories the way over, here I go on my
trope, again, we get to ring a bell.
I guess if you talk about social stories or mythologies that you
have cast of characters, I mean, Tolkien does it really well.
We now know, we have to say Tolkien, not Tolkien.
Oh, really?
Yes, the new film coming up.
We say Tolkien.
But I really like the arcing of that.
And if you like the raising of the holy fool character or the
slightly simple character who becomes the hero at the end is very
much a part of musical tradition and Jewish storytelling.
And now we have it in Doctor Who.
I like how Mickey becomes part of their family.
I can't believe that they're still boyfriend and girlfriend.
They're virtually kind of brother-in-law.
Well, not, are they?
And she says, I'm not up the duff.
I love that.
She's got this few precious moments to say goodbye to the doctor
and she pranks him twice.
It's so wonderful.
But I just, it's that family and that relationship in particular
over 2 years has been the most interesting one on the show because
it's, it's not very well sketched when we 1st see them.
I don't think Jackie and Mickey really interact in Rose, but then
in aliens of London, she's been, you know, sticking flaming bags
of dog turds on his on his front doorstep for 18 months because
she thinks that he's murdered Rose and then they grow together
they fight the sabine together.
And then it's so touching in Love and Monsters again, which I'm
currently obsessed with because I'm in the middle of editing the
episode, where she talks about how she had a mate who used to come
around and help her out and he's gone.
And it's so beautiful.
Like, that relationship is so sweet.
And, you know, everything's about Rose and how, Rose feels and how
am I going to cope with you gone?
She says to Mickey when he leaves at the end of the sidemen 2
parter.
But what about Jackie?
You know, um, Rose isn't home, but Mickey was at home and she's
lost him and it's heartbreaking and just lovely.
It's my favourite relationship, maybe in the era.
It is incredible. how these 2 supporting characters grow.
And watching this season, I realised up until Love and Monsters.
We don't really have a lot of Jackie at all.
We've got fake Jackie, but her screen time is very minimal, but
her presence is there throughout, and it's testament to the
writing and it's testament to the performance, just how strong it
is.
And I'm just so pleased that that 2nd last episode in the season
she really gets to be the Doctor Who companion and she has her
time to shine so brightly in it.
Camille is just the best mum in the show and has not been topped
by any, or even come close to anybody. since.
I think Jackie King is very good but I still agree with you.
Oh, in fact, I like all 3 RTD.
Mum's a great deal, but Camille is obviously just my 1st love and
maybe my favourite character.
Ian Dr. Hooji.
Nathan, Snog marry a void.
Um, all right.
Oh.
Oh my god.
Oh, and just loving monsters again.
So Snog Mary Avoid, Victor Kennedy, the Azorbilov, and the Ursula
Brick.
I originally had the hoics or whatever it was, but I thought, I
don't want to snog the hoics because those teeth are massive.
They're bigger than Billy Piper's, and that's really saying
something.
It does seem to be a competition this year for the monsters to
outdo Billy's tea.
No, would you want to marry it?
No, I think, I mean, you know, Elton's a nice man. and he
virtually marries the Ursula Brick, so I'm sure that that's
probably a good choice.
So, um, Well, I'd have to avoid Victor Kennedy because he's got
eczema and I'd get sucked into his backside, like poor old Bliss.
And so I'm afraid.
Very misnamed character, wasn't it?
There ever was one.
So I'll have to snog the...
No.
Yes, I'll have to snog the absorblov.
Marry the Absorblov.
Who are you marrying Ursula?
I'm snogging the absorber off.
Marrying Ursula.
A lifetime of misery.
Well, no, she's very happy.
She's a brick.
All right.
Oh, it's me.
Okay, what is the series arc?
For you?
What do you think of it?
I was once on a podcast with J.R.
Southall, and he said that the difference between Moffatt's series
arcs and RTD series arcs.
Is it RTD's ones are purely science fiction?
So it's like the parallel universe and the Cyberman and staff, as
opposed to, say, the hybrid, which involves the doctor and Clara
or whatever?
I can barely remember those arcs, to be honest.
But here, for me, the series arc is what we've talked about.
It's Rose, Mickey and Jackie and to some degree, Pete.
It's the restoration of Rose's family.
Like Rose is neglecting all of those people.
She's lost her father.
She's neglecting Mickey and Jackie. in order to run off and do
something very inadvisable with the doctor.
And she doesn't make a choice.
She doesn't get to make a choice, but she does end up, I think
probably in a better place than when she started.
So for me, that's the arc.
So it's interesting because you might think it's to do with
torture, with the fact that that's throughout everything and
torture, but it's coming, but really that's more of a device, not
what the undercurrents are.
And I remember we were talking to Stephen B from New to Who.
And for him, this series, from what I understand, is a love
story.
And that's his arc.
But I think I would agree more with you that it's about the
restoration, the family.
The love story arc is there for Rose for most of it, there's a few
episodes where it perhaps isn't, which is an inconsistency which
Doctor Who does.
And I can see that point of view, that it's her love story.
The doctor can never quite, this is as close as the doctor ever
gets to love with anybody.
Besides perhaps River, song, but she's not really a companion.
So, I think what you've said about the fact that it's the
restoration of this family is, in fact, the ark, even though you
might on the surface think that it's about torchwood or it's about
a love story with rose.
It's actually, I would agree with you.
James, Richard.
I would agree with you on that.
I think the Torchwood Arc is more just a series long promotion for
a spinoff series.
If only we'd got the spinoff series based on Tortured One instead
of Torture 3.
We might have enjoyed that a bit more.
That's a whole other topic.
When are we doing the tortured podcast?
We're not doing that.
But I would have loved Samantha Briggs to have shown up.
I think I gushed about this at the time, but the torture audio is
where they bring back Tracy and Cyberman are fantastic and it just
makes me wish that they'd actually just done a series based on the
torture in Doctor Who, not that tortured and tortured.
I just wonder whether there's that much there.
Do you know what I mean?
Like it introduces torchwood, but torchwood is just a name that's
dropped.
And that's how the previous arc worked.
You know, we had bad wolf just as a thing that got mentioned.
And then we discover in the final episode that that's a thing that
Billy has sent backwards and seeded throughout the season
herself.
I would have watched the hell out of that if that had been a
spinoff with green, tight-suited, lycrid, tennis ball hat man.
Josh, the werewolf. poke your eye out with a tennis ball
werewolf.
Yeah, I would have watched it that every fricking week.
Oh, so let's talk about the things that were disappointing.
Oh, did you get the best one?
So the pit.
So the pit we talked about this a couple of weeks ago where the
pit opens at the cliffhanger and the camera climbs out of it as if
something's coming to get Ida and the doctor.
And of course, it turns out that it was just the camera because
nothing actually comes out of the pit.
So sorry, just to clarify, you've picked things that disappoint.
And I called it the pit.
I think what disappoints Auros Lynn's 2 episodes, so that's the
Lantern and fear her, I think they're too similar.
You know, like I like Doctor Who does domestic.
I like a small scale thing.
I get the idea.
You know, it's not a big Doctor Who adventure.
Austin also did tooth and claw though.
Oh, okay, yeah, yeah.
See, that's good.
But I do think the other two, which were in one block and for one
terrifying moment, were going to be aired consecutively.
And I just don't think either of them is as good as it should be.
And I think Idiot Scientists better than the other one, but
Idiot's Lantern, we said in our episode, was marred by that
terrible performance from Eddie, who was just terrible.
Yeah, I think I think those 2 episodes, to me, come across as the
cheapest of the year, especially Fear Herb, which I'll have more
to say a bit later.
That's interesting when I listened to your podcast on the Idiot's
Lantern, I came away liking the episode a little less.
And it's the only episode this year that I actually liked a little
less.
Everything else was either the same or better.
So, yeah. that's probably the most disappointing aspect Well, the
thing I pulled out of one of the bowls was moment you'd rather
forget, which...
It's the same thing to that, doesn't it?
I think it has to be the paving stone fellatio scene. worst album
cover.
It's just, it just doesn't fit into the show that you're making.
It's a snide.
I'm almost an undergraduate humour.
Taking a stab at the show we love, yeah. and putting wrong humour
tones.
And just cheapening the relationship that's built up between those
2 characters for the whole episode.
I actually don't I don't know what you're talking about, James.
They snog.
They have a bit of a love life.
They still snog.
I don't know what on earth you are thinking.
Doctor Who does not do Snide World.
It shouldn't ever go down there.
Richard.
Oh, I've got what your one was just, again, disappointed.
I've got a favourite guest star.
I could say most disappointing guest star, but maybe often.
Sometimes often that's the same thing.
Isn't it?
I'm just saying no one's really disappointed me this season.
Even Eddie was a blustering fallen in Idiot's Lantern.
It probably is my favourite story just because it's what I listen
to all the time, you know, the 50s nonsense on the radio.
Even he fits nicely because he's so...
Again, it's looking in Doctor Who from maybe even a wider angle is
that when they don't give a resolved or fully realised
performance.
I look at it and I think, well, that's what a lot of people are
actually like, completely undiscovered of their own internal
territories and completely unable to register any truths of
themselves or anybody else because they just don't know who they
are themselves.
So I think that actually the inconsistencies in performance in
that story make it work really well.
And I love Ron Cook and I love Maureen Lippman.
So again, Maureen, mini is actually my favourite guest in this.
Because it's just what Nathan and I would have done, given 3
quarters of a chance and half a Lippy between us.
It's my turn to do the stare.
Favourite guess wise. agree with you.
More in Lippin.
And mainly because what I discovered after we did that podcast.
What agony?
Agony.
Wasn't that exciting?
I think delving into her back catalogue, that sounds a bit
more...
It makes me love her even more, having found her previous work and
like Nathan and I binge watched Agne at the same time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We were texting each other and finishing episodes sort of minutes
apart.
I've still got to get and watch it that I'm in now, thank you.
I wish I hadn't watched Agony again afterwards.
It's a bit terrible.
Though her gay son. should I have said that?
It's quite sweet.
Yeah.
She is certainly a standout. in that episode and something that
sticks in your mind.
I just wish you'd done the Gabriel Wolf voice as well. hungry.
My favourite guest star of the year is Elizabeth Slater.
Oh, yeah.
Fair enough.
Mine's Ida.
I think Ida Scott in the Satan Pitt is incredibly good.
Yeah, I don't see Liz as guest.
I see her as core cast.
Yeah, she's family.
Yeah, She's too terrible.
She's a recurring character.
In fact, really, she's got more right to be there than any of the
others.
Even David Tennant.
Well, exactly.
The other one I would then choose is Queen Victoria.
Oh yeah, yeah.
Samantha Briggs.
Let's move on to It's a Wrap, which is about end of the season, so
I'll go with Nathan.
Okay, let's see what comes out of this.
I can't remember what I put in here.
Oh, we need Jenny Ladd Award nominations.
We've been doing a few of those already, haven't we?
Kind of, but I've neglected.
It's a Mayor Cooper for me.
I've completely forgotten about the Jenny Laird Award and I think
I'm happy to see it reinstated from here on.
I think the most puzzling creative choice was giving something
like Idiots Lantern and Fear Her, to our Oslin, who's not great
with actors, who's very good with action and moving the camera
around and stuff like that, but isn't that great with actors, and
those are stories that absolutely live and die by the quality of
the act, because because they're the cheapies, and because they're
all about family interactions and stuff like that.
And I think the acting needed to be better in both of those.
James?
Well, I was going to say the scribble monster from Fear Her, but
we love that.
But you can actually say that, James. if you want to.
I'll draw all over Richard's point from earlier in the episode has
swayed my opinion on that.
I think you're right.
Like as a child, big scary dirty in the closet.
I mean, there's a whole lot to take away from it.
Yeah, actually the big scary daddy in the closet is actually quite
horrific.
It is.
Any little child who fear to, you know, oh, let's not go there
because there's a whole lot in this story. yeah.
It's a pity that fear her doesn't quite hold together direction
wise.
Is that what it is?
It's the direction.
Because I feel it is a strong story.
And honestly, as a viewer, I don't get the connection between
idiots lantern and fear at all.
I can see it in construct and looking from, but when you're in
there, it's just, oh, no, it's all, it's completely different.
Because, I mean, Doctor Who only has how many stories did we
defined in the three?
There's 12 stories in the universe and 3 on Doctor Who.
But no, I think I think you're right.
Like, it appeals to the child.
And that, that, so, so I'm not going to say that.
I'm going to say David Tennant's teeth.
Okay.
Thank you.
Richard.
Well, I'm going to take the Nathan stick and go for go for the
very wine view, the satellite view of the series.
I think my journey Laird award might be for production.
Oh, can I go this far?
Production arcing tone from season one to season two.
I feel we've actually gone from Ridley Scott to James Cameron.
And I know that that's the way the series will go forever on and
it guarantees bums onseatsuccess.com.
But I really love the portmanteau talented amateur approach to
season one, though, what the hell are we doing running by the skin
of our pants, Heath Robertson?
Let's just bundle it all together and do something whimsical and
magical.
When Disney was actually still fun to corporate Disney, which we
now have with this season, that everything's been studied, and
it's all been looked at through the lens of a viewscreen rather
than a monocle, and it's been it's suited.
It's suited and tied and it's proper.
And I know what it's doing.
I can see where it's going and I don't like the sense of the
construct.
The form is lovely, but formulaic is not Doctor Who.
This is why I still love the Graham Williams era.
And anything that Douglas Adams did, it's still my go-to for
viewing because it's dangerously untidy.
And I sort of miss that.
I absolutely agree with you.
And I don't know whether I've said this recently, but the thing
about series one is that they don't know that it's going to be
successful.
No, you really don't.
But when they're making it, they've got no idea of what the
reaction is, they go into series 2 knowing that this is going to
be the biggest show on TV and they know that fans will put up with
a whole lot more fanboyness than they were prepared to do in
series one.
So series one seems to me to be super experimental in a way that
series 2 isn't.
And I really feel that I think you've expressed that really well.
This is all very metal.
I was going to say that this week.
We not up to Moffat yet.
Because I go for much more obvious things.
I've got multiple nominations.
I'm just going to start.
The entire terrible London Olympics from fear her.
Well, yeah.
The old grand from fear.
Oh, she was my favourite.
I was her, let's say.
My name's Chloe Webber.
From Fear Her.
The mother from Fear Herb for ruining.
Kookaburra sits in the old gum tree.
She did ruin it.
Mary, Mary King of the Bushes.
He.
Todd's going to give this story a three.
Eddie Connolly from Idiot Lantern.
John Lumick.
Oh yeah, he's bad.
From the 1st Simon and 2 Parter, and Ricky, from The Cyberman 2
Parter, played by Noel Clark, is also in my nominations, because
he just gives angry sex face the entire episode, and I hate that
creative puzzling choice.
James and I are clutching each other.
Yes.
Where is my Noel Clark angry sex face?
I had to say this, I think, Noel, it's Mickey.
I'm just ignoring. ignoring, I'm ignoring.
Sorry, I'm just ignoring everything that you've just said.
You know, that whole thing when they growl when they, oh, I know, I
love angry sex first.
I know that you're listening.
Are we allowed to say angry sex face on the podcast?
It's going to be the time.
Tag.
You always approach these with such professionalism and they
always demount into blanc mange, don't they?
They do.
I'd like blame out...
Look, you had a really good discussion about why he was like that
in the bravado that he was putting on.
I'm not sold.
And I think Noel's performance as Mickey is so nuanced in that
story.
As a contrast, I find that other performance one note.
So I'm putting it up for a nomination.
So they're all my nominations.
But surprise, surprise, they're not the winner. that Jenny
Eledwald goes to the end of Love and Monsters turning Ushua into
the brick, which I really dislike.
I don't know how you could get around it.
He's never going to be able to move on with his life.
And I just think that she should have had a moment with him and
died.
And I just think it was the wrong choice.
And that ruin, that ending ruins that story for me.
You have to remember that when I 1st saw this story, I gave it a
one out of 10, right?
And over the years, I've actually grown to love so much of it.
But when it gets to that, it just...
We actually are recording this on the weekend that I'm editing and
releasing the Love and Monsters episode.
So I'll be interested to hear what you think of it.
Everyone listening to this now or many of the people listening to
this episode now will have heard that episode already and our take
on what happens to Ursula and that very objection, that it would
have been better if she died.
So we do talk about that and have a listen to it because I was
surprised by where that episode of FTE ended up going.
See, to me, that story is the 6 out of 10 and that's because of
the ending.
You know, and I used to hate it.
But now I really love so much of it. all the Jackie Elton stuff
and all that team.
But it just, at the end, just is ruined.
And for me, that's my Jenny Letterboard.
Sorry, Russell, but you get it.
Yeah, well, you've been wrong before.
Rarely, Nathan.
Rarely.
Oh, Todd.
What do you think of series 2 now?
As opposed to back as opposed to back then. back then I just saw
it as a wonderful romp.
And we were terribly excited.
There's the thrill, the Elan of never having seen something
before.
And we watched a lot of these, if you recall, back at Nathan's
house with Todd in the room, so no one was allowed just...
We watched them very carefully.
We did, and which is not something we do anymore because we've got
laptops and flip tops and duck hair and everything else that we
all do, you know, it's all very post-David Tenet.
I don't go back to these now.
It's interesting, isn't it?
But the thing that I really, really, that I have enjoyed watching
again this season is the arcing of characterisations and the
musical comedy sense of it again.
So, yes, I think we've touched on all of those people of import.
I do like the variants in tone.
I do like that we jump from tooth and claw.
Then we get Satan Pitt, we get a whole lot of lovely things that
if we think back to our childhoods, we remember Doctor Who being
as good as this, if not a little bit better, but it really
wasn't.
You'd sort of have to wait 3 years to get everything that we've
had in one year, it does feel like 3 years worth of stories.
So, if I think of it, no, I see it as far more polished than I
would remember it because they've put more time into it.
But again, it doesn't quite have the sense of newly discovered joy
the freshly hatched feeling that the year before.
I'm interested to see what comes along for season 3 and how I feel
about that.
It's interesting because this of the 1st 5 seasons of Doctor Who's
always been my least liked.
And it came down to the cyberman stories, which I really rated
quite averagely.
And all of those episodes, especially the 1st parts of both of the
2 partners.
I've just really have enjoyed so much more, like 9 out of 10s
whereas they were 7 before.
And that's really impacted on my enjoyment of this season.
And all of the stories bar, fear her and Idiots Lantern, have in
some way increased in my mind.
So it's really been a rehabilitation of this entire season in the
arc for me.
I think I remain sort of more or less unchanged.
I feel the way that Richard and I were talking about the
relationships between series one and 2 that there's something a
bit less exciting about coming at it for the 2nd year.
But I think I've also said this year that as well as writing it
confident in the fact that it'll be well received, they are also
writing it, having learned what worked and what didn't work last
year.
And so Series one has a very, very special place in my heart.
But I think series 2 is is very good and I think I probably always
have thought that.
Do you have anything to add, James?
Look, I think that series 2 is not it doesn't have as much joy and
spontaneity in it as series one.
It is more polished and it is more consistent for the most part.
I think they've worked out what works for them stylistically and
what works with the way that the show is structured now.
Um, There are a few episodes that don't quite fit or um, don't
quite gel in the, in the way that you'd like them to, but overall
it's a much more level season.
It doesn't have the highs and lows that parts of series one had.
But, um, I think it it lacks something because of the, the lack of
sort of less throw everything and the kitchen sink at it, which
series one had. like we've got to make this a success.
We just have to, you know, let's give it an arrow.
Whereas I think they're a bit more relaxed there.
And you end up with something which is probably a bit more...
See, I think this has got a lower load in fear her.
I don't think there's anything as close to that as the previous
season.
That's my only difference of opinion, perhaps there.
All right, here's here's a topic for you.
Daleks or Cyberman.
I think this is an old age one where Doctor Who fans of classic
Elk.
Are you a Spider-Man person or are you a Dalek person?
You could be both, but for me, I've always been a dialect person
which is why this season perhaps suffered a bit because it was the
cyberman.
I really never really enjoyed a lot of the Sidemen stories in
Classic Who as much as I enjoyed the Dalek stories, although
Revenge of the Side of them, I really enjoyed.
But for the side of them, that's more than the side women.
But it was really interesting discussions that you had during the
year in the podcast talking about the fact that this year the
cybermen have got back to actually being cybermen and converting
people, which is something that never really happened from the 70s
onwards in Doctor Who.
So I actually found them a lot more disturbing this time around.
But I'm still a Dalek person over a cyberman person.
Well, I mean, the sidemen are very much after the moon base, just
the monsters that come along when Terry Nation's in LA trying to
flog the dialects.
And so they always have that sort of 2nd rate sort of feel to
them.
And so I think that Russell does a tremendous job reinventing the
Cybermen, and I think the stories, the Cybermen stories are great
here and he really gives the Sidemen a shot in the arm, which then
Moffatt will go on to do much later as well.
But yeah, it's the Daleks.
Well, I refute your heteronormative binary condition. in this and
I think you can actually have everything at once.
And again, I only, I don't really have a preference, but I like
them when they're both together at the end.
And then it proves to me there's sort of the, why that is such a
special moment.
Okay, I'm going to meta the hell out of this, is that, right at
the end with Doomsday, you see the antagonists, you see the threat
do we say ostensible threat from another bingo point to this?
I hope you've got your card there because we've covered a lot of
them today, is that they're both ineffectual, numbing and numbed
themselves and with such very small apertures to life.
They are pretty much having just gone through an election that I
don't feel very comfortable about.
Some of our listeners are still going through Brexit and we have
other listeners who are dealing with what's happening in the US
and I feel wherever we are, we have to remember that those that
wish to threaten and control, when we look at them from a great
enough position standing back.
And I'm thinking about some of the camera angles they got with
that crane in that massive loading dock hall, with the big Dalek
ball, James.
And yes.
Thank you.
All of that is that you could see actually how small and futile
and such hurt little 2 year olds.
They all are, both the Daleks and the sidemen, and that it's
really just representing such a very small part of ourselves that
is only large when we allow it to be.
It's why they scream, isn't it?
It's why the Dalek scream.
Yeah.
Yeah, that really, these valuable lessons to try against
microcontrol against trying to tell others what to do. isn't that
really what Russell's been telling us all the time?
Enjoy your messiness.
Enjoy your rust.
You know, but Liz and I and K9 have quite a bit of rust on us and
I'm celebrating it right now.
James Heidman or Daleks or both or neither.
Well, I refuse both.
I choose I choose the axles.
Axons.
I love the axel.
Why hadn't they been brought back?
Well, they were. painted green.
No, they were too.
Yeah, look, I mean, the Daleks in this happened.
Yes, look, there are all these fun stories, but there's so much
more to this show than those 2 enemies.
There's so many more stories that you can tell.
I find those stories often very limiting.
I enjoy them.
But what can you do after you've done the invasion plotline, the
you know, loss of humanity plotline?
What else is there?
Okay, we're heading towards our final 2 topics.
The 1st one is David Tennant and Billy Piper.
Battle of the teeth.
And that's our title.
It is like an Ultraman episode, isn't it?
Do they work together as well as Eccles and Billy did?
I think they work better.
I think they do work very well together.
Different pictures. is, yeah.
Because they're friends.
By the end of series one, nobody's a friend with Christopher
Eccleston.
You do get that sense, don't you?
But I really like that.
But watching it, I find that tension really interesting.
The doctor is a loner.
He's a deeply unhappy, lonely person.
I'm right here.
And I feel that I feel that that just lends so much grit and
weight in my in past stories.
The one where Tom says goodbye to Liz, the one where Pert says
goodbye. without even looking them in the eye. without even
looking them in the eye.
They're the precious moments for me, Todd.
But you're quite right, Richard.
Like we've got the same situation with Sarah Jane Smith and the
3rd doctor, that dynamic.
I love that dynamic.
But it's very different to the 4th doctor and Sarah Jane.
It's the same with Clara and the 11 and Clara and 12.
And I think if one thing I can take away from this is that having
a companion with 2 doctors and having like a year with each really
all these quick companion changeovers just before a doctor leaves
or at the same time, I think you're robbed of something.
Yeah.
I wish Janet had stayed for 10 years now.
I mean, wouldn't Janet have been amazing with Colin, though?
Yeah, yeah, just for those.
Someone who couldn't bully.
Well, it would have been great.
But we've all seen that interfix with sometimes.
I think one of the things about David Tennant's performance this
year is that, and you've hit upon this a number of times, Nathan
is that when we're away from it, we go into the default of, yes
it's all big hair and his shtick and everything, but you come back
to it and you watch these episodes and he, I'm totally entertained
by him.
Totally in the moment, right?
And I'll rubbish him, you know, away from it.
It's a bit like what happened with Pertwee in the 90s with fandom
is that he got rubbished and then you come back to it and you
actually realise this is so enjoyable and you're so good.
Yeah.
I think that's right.
I mean, I'm looking forward to seeing how I react to his
performances in series 3 and four.
But he has some great moments all the way through.
I think we're actually just seeing Mirror Universe.
Tom Zero.
So he'll be meeting Louise Jamieson next year, won't he?
We're counting it.
Yes, I wonder how that will go.
Any thoughts, James?
I think David Turner's a very good actor.
But he's limited by, and I think, Nathan, you've said this a
number of times before, he's limited by having to do the Cod
Cockney Dick Van Dyke accent.
And when he's doing a quiet, considered scene, he's brilliant, but
when he's doing the doctor shtick.
It can be grating.
You still enjoy it.
I still enjoy all of series two.
I think he gets better as he goes further on.
Series 4 is still my favourite season, I think, of the new series
because of the fact that you end up with Catherine Tate and she's
a bloody good actress.
I mean, she's, she's, whatever you think of her comedy.
I enjoy her comedy.
But she's a very good actress and I think, you know, not getting
ahead of ourselves.
When David Turn is given more to work with, he's very good.
He rises to that performance?
Yeah.
He's okay in series two.
All right.
Well, let's talk about the departing cast member, Billy Piper.
I think she's been an absolute, amazing actress these 2 seasons.
She sells every scene that she's in, the tears that she can
produce and the emotions.
We've discussed so much about roses, immaturity and self
centredness.
But I just have to praise Billy Pipe.
But without her being the backbone of these 2 series, with her
supporting cast members, the show would just not have survived
would not have been a success.
That's my opinion.
Yeah She's the new series Barbara.
No, in fact, Camille, also new series, Barbara.
She is an incredible actor, and remember, at the time, it was that
sort of usual fan thing.
We think it's a recent phenomenon, but fan anger about casting
this pop starlers in our very important serious science fiction
program.
But she ended up being extraordinary.
And the big question that the show has now is how does it survive
her departure.
Because it starts with her.
The show is about her and her family and she's about to go and
that's going to blow up the entire show and it's just, I remember
thinking at the time.
What do we do?
What can season 3 even be?
You've got ESP again because my final question was about season
three.
What are we hoping to discover and the questions that need to be
asked.
So you've just answered that.
You're right.
Like the show doesn't recover until Russell leaves.
From, from, from, from the fact he made her so integral to the
pot.
I agree.
There's a loss.
There's a loss that we all feel.
Maybe we're meant to feel that.
He really is that dark.
So you're saying that that sort of hangs over the series until
that's all wrapped up in series four?
I can serve this series, definitely, with series 3 suffers because
everybody's like, who is this Martha who cares?
Series 4 is great.
But until you bring her back and then write her out completely
again with the spare doctor.
We're getting ahead of ourselves.
No, but just to go on that line, then you get the durning war of
this doctor losing his shtick and everything falling apart when
he's gnashing his teeth in waters of Mars.
I don't care, you know, that if, well, it's a great audition for
Hamlet, isn't it?
I guess so.
Which he was doing at the time.
Yeah, there is that sense of, yes, there's there's the teen
warrior, even though he's not a child, but he I definitely get the
sense of Tina.
Yeah, a Twinkie-Tink. having, having found love, lost it and
really never coming to terms with that.
And I'm quite serious on the Louise Jamison tone for next season
because I suspect I'll be getting someone who's lost what he loved
and is going to not be taking it all too well and maybe taking it
out on others.
You know, for me, it's going to be the rehabilitation of Martha
her mother, the master, the 3 M's. the 3 things I'm looking at for
next season, which I had problems with at the time.
You'll love it, Todd.
I know you.
Nine out of 10. 9 out of 10 people, 9 out of 10.
Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week, and
for this series of Doctor Who.
We'll be back for Christmas in July with a commentary podcast on
the Runaway Bride.
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts
and you can keep up with us at FlightsRentirety.com, flight
through entirety on Facebook and at FTE podcast on Twitter.
You can also find our series 11 flashcast Jody Interterterra at
Jody Interterra.com and at Jody Interterra on Twitter and our
James Bond commentary podcast Bondfinger at bondfinger.com at
bondfinger on Facebook and at bondfingercast on Twitter.
Until next time, may you always remember to keep a firm hold on
the damn lever, for God's sake.
Thank you very much for listening and good night.
Good night.
See you soon.
Good thing.
That was Flight through Entirety, starring Todd Bilby, Nathan
Bottomley, James Selwood, and Richard Stone.
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings Performance by Jane
Orberg.
This episode, probably in a better place than when she started, was
recorded on the 19th of May 2019 and released on the 16th of
June.
We'd like to thank all of the people who joined us this series, Liz
Miles, Adam Richards, Stephen and Dan from New to Who, Max Gelbart
Simon Moore, and Peter Griffiths.
We'll be back soon, but in the meantime, keep watching the teeth.
I had 3 more Snog Barrier Boys.
We'll do it for the do it for the do it.
No, no, tell us what they are.
Tell us what they are.
Okay.
The 1st one was Strong Mary avoid.
Toby Z, Zachary Cross Splain, Danny Barton.
All three, all of them.
Okay.
At the same time.
Nog, then marry, then avoid them.
Okay.
That's very clever because you may have the same answer to this.
Stock Mary avoid.
King Louis, Captain Reynolds, Mr. Wagner.
Oh, wait, wait, who's Mr. Wagner?
The teacher from the other teacher.
Oh, the hot teacher from...
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, he is hot.
And my five, all of them at the one time.
Yes, and then you snog and then you avoid them.
Thank you, James.
And then the other one.
Just pass them on.
No, I meant all six.
Which he might want to make it 9 because here's my other one we
didn't get 2 Snog Mary avoid.
Mickey, Ricky, Jake.
Oh, oh, avoid Jake.
He's got some very good facial cleansing work done since he's
actually looking quite pretty now.
I hate the hair.
I hate it so much He was really struggling with his acne at the
time.
No, but I'm talking about his kids' TV presenter here.
H from Steps.
Here goes.