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NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:22:08

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast, walking through the marketplace on some planet a 1000000000 miles from Earth.

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But we're not flight through entirety, not anymore.

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We're not even human.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm James.

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I'm Todd.

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Just a supernova getting sucked out of a black hole at the moment.

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Happy election day.

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It's been one hell of a rollicking ride over the last 13 weeks.

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We've loved, we've lost, and we've been haunted by terrifying mental images of Elton Pope's love life.

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But we've recovered now and we're ready to summarise what we've learned.

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Welcome to our series 2 retrospective.

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So, a little while ago, Nathan and I guested on the Doctor Who Show, and David Kitchen came up with this method of different topics that he put them on little pieces of paper and we had to pick.

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So I've done this for today, and we've got 3 different topics that the gentlemen here are going to pick from.

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We've got the cast, Snog Mario Void, and a series 2 in 3 bowls.

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And we're going to be picking from those for the 1st 3 quarters of this retrospective and then we've got it's a wrap, which is obviously more about mummification.

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The end of the season.

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So as the most recent member of the podcast, James, I'd like you to pick first.

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And one, you just go into...

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Go for the filth.

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Oh, you want to snob marry a boy, do you?

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Go straight for the filth.

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Well, you do know me.

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Okay, well, you can go with Snog Mario void is in that bowl, so you need to just find something.

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They're like tiny fortune cookies, dear listener.

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Delicious, crispy and full of foreboding.

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Snog Mario void.

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Mrs. Moore, Ada Scott or Maeve Griffiths.

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I don't know who Maeve Griffin is.

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Okay, Maeve Griffiths.

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Oh, the children are disappearing.

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Oh no.

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From, uh, fear her.

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That was very good.

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I think it'd have to be Mrs. Moore because she's just so fabulous.

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It's not her?

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You're snogging Mrs. Moore?

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worried about the tea.

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Yes, yes.

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Who are you avoiding?

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And therefore you're marrying Ida Scott.

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Well, you would.

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Very good.

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And she has a lovely religion.

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Her sort of quantum Presbyterian religion.

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They I'm sure they have a lovely ceremony.

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I just see this as an exciting, you know, bar mini convention to your mother convention.

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Ah, the wives of series 2.

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The grannies of Doctor Who.

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They're not far off, Tom.

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Richard.

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Richard.

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Why don't you pick from the black?

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The black pole.

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Yes.

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I'll put the black pigeon on my head.

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Stupid boy turtles.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Twisted boy.

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Why didn't they play in like, hello, Colin Neal.

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Why didn't they play Enlightenment, like an episode of Dad's Army?

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It was all there.

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It would have honestly. still podcasting about it.

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I'm really blind.

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No, it says here.

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Rosemary's baby, what does it say?

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Best adversary.

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Yes, best adversary of this season.

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Oh, well, I want to say Billy Piper's teeth, but they haven't reached apotheosis yet.

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That's such a good question, isn't it?

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As in the very, very best.

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Well, it depends on who you are.

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As a little child, I actually think the graphite squiggle monster was just such a genius concept for a tiny child.

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You're never going to forget that if you're under 10 and watching that episode.

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Um, but I think the best adversary of the year has to be bitchy dalek sick.

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Just because I hadn't seen, I hadn't seen dynasty.

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I haven't seen Aaron spelling in wear cheese and shoulder pads before as the Scarovian in Promada.

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They're freaking bitches.

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God, I love them.

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I have to default to the obvious, of course, and she's all in black Matt, and Josh, she's gorgeous.

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I'm surprised that Maureen Lippman doesn't get a look in here.

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She should.

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If she, perhaps if she'd just done something more with it.

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I know, maybe someone else should have that.

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And but it's really, what I'm thinking is, who do you take away with you in memory?

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What has really struck?

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So I'm thinking of point of difference.

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So again, doing the Dior little black, little black after 5 number and just changing expectations.

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We've seen Russell do this with everything.

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I love Mark Gatis's stories.

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I just wish that they actually got produced on screen as, you know, in the full 4 hours that they need.

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It is this thing, though, where we spend our entire childhood, wondering what would happen if the Daleks and Cyberman had a fight.

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And what we didn't realise would be that it would be just a sort of giant slapdown bitch fight.

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It's a dynasty end of season in the duck pond.

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So yeah, so I love Maureen.

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But no, I think as if I were a child watching this, it would have been that.

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But you're very right.

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But like, you're very true when you say that.

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What do you, what instantly comes to mind?

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And like for me, it's like the clockwork people from Girl on the Fireplace and the wolf from Tooth and Claw.

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But as an adversary for me, it has to be the beast and its various incarnations in that two-parter is the adversary of the year for me, right?

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When I sit down and really analyse and think about it.

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It's mainly for Gabriel Will's voice.

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Yeah, it's wonderful, isn't it?

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But the CG monster looks pretty good as well.

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What about you, James?

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Who's your adversary?

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I think the CG Monster looks good in this better than it did next season in our Torchwood.

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Yeah.

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Sorry.

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Unfortunate series one.

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Yeah.

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Like, ooh, we've got this CG monster leftover.

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Let's paint it great.

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Look, I would probably have to agree with you with Dalek Sec.

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Um, just...

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Yeah, it's the 1st memory, but because it's so tattooed on the frontal lobes.

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When I was rewatching the series 2 finale, like I was quoting those lines in my head. my husband.

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But anyway, like I said, I felt like I, you know, not that I was a kid when I was watching I was in my 20s.

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But the inner child, like the thing that sparks the inner child in me is the thing that makes me remember a Doctor Who, Billy. used to watch it.

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Yeah.

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I felt like I was, you know, an 8 year old and that was just the best thing in the world to me.

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Like the sort of SmackDown, you know, you are better at dying.

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Pest control.

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Yes, right too.

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Excellent.

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All right.

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Please pick from the far bowl.

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This one over here, which is this is about the cast.

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The cast.

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Oh, Sarah Jane Smith and K9.

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I found myself absolutely touched by K9's return and bawling my eyes out at the end.

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Resurrection?

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Yeah, yeah.

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But I do have some reservations about that episode and about Sarah Jane Smith's depiction.

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And um, I was chatting to Johnny Spandrel about this, who is not a fan of this episode.

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And he really dislikes the way that Sarah and Rose fight, the way that she's turned into sort of, you know, the doctor's girlfriend.

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And the way that she is a bit of a loser.

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And I think we talked about that in the episode.

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We did, and I had certain reservations too, because I always felt that she would go on to bigger and better things, but instead it's like she spent 20 years in a rut.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I mean, she does go on to bigger and better things at the end and we know that that's what happens.

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And her performance, you know, there are times where it's still that sort of performative 1970s performance which doesn't quite fit into 21st century Doctor Who.

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But there's times when it is really, really touching and affecting.

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And I remember at the time thinking that maybe they were cutting around her a little bit, but, you know, her reaction to canine's death is so, so heartfelt and so wonderful.

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And, you know, like I tear up every time I see it.

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I mean, you know, she was my 1st companion.

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I will always love her and, you know, I still was terribly excited to see her back.

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Look, I agree with everything that you just said.

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One of the things that I had a problem with was the fact that from here on in, she's always Sarah Jane to everybody, and in my head, I don't know, in my head cannon.

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She always introduced herself as Sarah Jane Smith, right?

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And she was called Ms. Smith, but often when the doctor was talking to her, she'd just be Sarah, unless he was on death's door when he would call her Sarah Jane.

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So I actually really like in the episode, pretendant actually does say Sarah at one point.

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And it always just grates, I mean, when everybody just calls us Sarah Jane all the time.

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Like it's just a minor thing, but it's just something from my childhood that I think is a bit of a rewrite.

156
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In fact, um, Gita, Rani's mother keeps calling her Sarah in uh, the Sarah Jane Adventures and Sarah keeps correcting her.

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So she's obviously decided to go with Sarah Jane at some point, but maybe I'm bringing that into it a bit.

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I wanted to talk about K9 because it's something that when we were discussing this episode, I think we overlooked a lot more because we were talking very much about Liz and that dynamic.

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And it was really lovely to have him back.

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And I would have liked it if when the doctor had started him up, you would have got halloo master.

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Like the David Brierly voiced by accident.

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And then and then he goes, oh, no, that's the wrong setting and then gone to John Leeson. would have been kind of nice.

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Sorry, I just thought I'd throw that in.

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Let's re-edit it.

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James?

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Yeah, I think we raised this at the time when we did school reunion.

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Yeah, I think we all had a problem with the Sarah being bitter and heartbroken by her sort of parting from the doctor and mourning that relationship for 20 years.

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I think you can wreck on that because The parting of them in had a fear is not something she will, you know, she doesn't want to leave.

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They have a they have a bit of a hissy fit to each other.

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Well, she has a hissy fit at him because he's ignoring her and then and then he throws her out the Tartars, is, you know, like you can kind of understand that.

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But I think I raised this at the time, the, the, you know, they wanted to make her an alcoholic.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I think what we got was so much better.

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I think that would have probably killed the character.

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You may not have actually got a spinoff series if you've gone with it.

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The 1st time I saw this was sitting next to, as I'm doing right now, to the lovely Todd.

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And we saw it at the group viewing it.

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And, well, I mean, just it's very hard to see through a windscreen visor of tears, isn't it?

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But I remember we were talking about this and certainly I felt at the time watching this.

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I love how Russell always writes himself into his into those he most loves.

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So of course she was going to be an alcoholic and washed up and embittered.

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No, I loved the embitteredness because again, as you say, none of us were happy as small children with the way she was left.

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And we all thought, of course she's bitter and angry, and of course she had everything and she was dropped.

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She was booted out.

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And there was a more fraternal relationship between them.

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They were never the, the, the relationship that Rose has.

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But then again, I really love Liz's take on the slightly Mary Poppins school mom, take that she takes.

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Oh, good for you, tiger.

189
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And she says to no, she really handles Billy Piper very, very nicely, as in, you know, both as an actress and as a character.

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They have a lovely way of working off each other.

191
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It was really good to see for someone who hadn't worked on television for so long, just how quickly Liz got to the pace and picked it up.

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I was a bit worried for her.

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That 1st time when Todd and I was sitting there together watching it, we just couldn't really see it because it was all just, oh, this is just everything.

194
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It really was. was everything.

195
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To have you, to have you such a big part of who you loved as a little child to come back on screen is very powerful.

196
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It's you know, it's one of the biggest acting jobs she's had in 20 years.

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And you can you can see that, like you say, it's that sort of presentational 70s acting style.

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But she picks it up really quickly.

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Very quickly.

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By the end of that story, I think she's kind of got the pace of it.

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And then when she gets her own series, she's amazing.

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Yeah, she's back in the swing, you can see that journey in that episode.

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I think really on a personal level.

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It's more about the fact that, you know, in the end, she got her reward.

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Yeah.

206
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And I think that's really it touches you.

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You did, yeah.

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Okay, it's my turn to choose.

209
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And guess what?

210
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It's up to snog, Barry, avoid.

211
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I was trying to avoid this, needle.

212
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Just have to snuggle Marritt instead.

213
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Okay, here we go.

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Snog barrier avoid.

215
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Gareth, Matt, or Christian Arthur.

216
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Bracket, the guard from the Impossible Pianus.

217
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He had a name?

218
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No, that's his real name, not.

219
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I looked it up.

220
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So I guess, come on, Todd, you're snogging.

221
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I'm stogging.

222
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Which one's Matt?

223
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I even wrote this and I forgot which one's the dark-haired one?

224
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I thought the dark-haired one was prettier than the other one, so I'm calling him Matt and the other one, Gareth.

225
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All right, so the less pretty one I'm avoiding.

226
00:14:53.159 --> 00:14:53.639
Yep.

227
00:14:53.639 --> 00:15:00.899
I shall obviously snore Gareth, and then, well, the guard in the Boston Planet looks like I'm marrying him for all the right reasons.

228
00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:04.679
Non-stop access to that, don't you, Todd?

229
00:15:04.740 --> 00:15:05.159
Yep.

230
00:15:05.159 --> 00:15:08.039
Gareth is Adiola's boyfriend.

231
00:15:08.100 --> 00:15:08.820
Right.

232
00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:10.980
And Matt is the one that they lure in afterwards.

233
00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:11.820
I think.

234
00:15:11.940 --> 00:15:14.159
Well, I've answered the question.

235
00:15:14.220 --> 00:15:16.139
And I can't believe I cannot believe people.

236
00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:18.299
I pulled this one out of them.

237
00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:20.399
Two relatively pretty boys, lucky you.

238
00:15:20.820 --> 00:15:22.980
Was the guard attractive?

239
00:15:23.039 --> 00:15:23.820
Can't remember.

240
00:15:23.879 --> 00:15:24.659
Yes.

241
00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:26.100
Have another listen to that episode.

242
00:15:26.159 --> 00:15:27.419
You need to...

243
00:15:27.480 --> 00:15:28.679
Oh, is he the one with the package?

244
00:15:28.740 --> 00:15:29.700
Apparently.

245
00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:38.279
All right, James, you're up. and you are up to the black bowl here on series.

246
00:15:38.460 --> 00:15:41.220
I'm reaching deep into the ball.

247
00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:43.259
Inter Valentine dials, black bowl.

248
00:15:43.500 --> 00:15:46.080
Why did we choose this bowl?

249
00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:49.080
It's a big black ball.

250
00:15:49.559 --> 00:15:52.799
I have picked out favourite moment from the season.

251
00:15:53.759 --> 00:16:14.220
Look, I think my favourite moment from the season, just because it has so much emotional residence, because we've grown to love her and I'm probably stealing your favourite moment, Nathan. is the moment when Jackie and alternate Pete.

252
00:16:14.220 --> 00:16:16.440
Oh, God. in the series finale.

253
00:16:16.500 --> 00:16:27.360
And, and there's that whole sort of comical interplay and then they just end up sort of running and jumping into each other's arms and like, it's wonderful.

254
00:16:27.419 --> 00:16:29.159
It's just beautiful. such an amazing.

255
00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:38.460
I was in tears the whole time. and they're both, they're both saying to one another, no, you're not my real wife, you're not my real husband. this isn't going to happen.

256
00:16:38.519 --> 00:16:43.620
And you're kind of thinking that's such a stupid science fiction concede who cares for God's sake.

257
00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:46.799
And just while you're thinking that they run into one another's arms.

258
00:16:46.860 --> 00:16:48.240
It's beautiful.

259
00:16:48.299 --> 00:16:50.159
And it fixes Rose's family.

260
00:16:50.220 --> 00:17:00.539
You know, there's a wound at the heart of Rose's backstory, which is her father died when she was little and the doctor fixes it inadvertently, but he does leave her better than he found her.

261
00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:02.039
Nathan?

262
00:17:02.100 --> 00:17:05.339
Well, I might choose another Jackie moment then in that case.

263
00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:11.339
And it is Jackie and Elton at the Laundret in Love and Monsters.

264
00:17:11.339 --> 00:17:22.680
And it's a wonderful scene because Elton's gone in with instructions from Victor Kennedy about how to strike up a conversation with a normal human being.

265
00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:36.059
And as he's thinking about all of the instructions in his head, Jackie actually does it, each one of them 1st because Jackie is a normal human being who knows how to have relationships with normal human beings.

266
00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:42.720
And that whole scene and much of that episode was written in order to give Jackie Moore to do.

267
00:17:42.779 --> 00:17:59.819
And I think Brendan may have said that the original plan was like not to have Jackie at the end of the season in our universe, that she wouldn't be there, but Russell definitely definitely wanted to give her more to do in Love and Monsters, and she's wonderful in it.

268
00:17:59.880 --> 00:18:02.880
And that scene is so funny and just so wonderful.

269
00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:05.099
And the 2 of them just spark off each other.

270
00:18:05.160 --> 00:18:07.319
And it's a showcase for Camille.

271
00:18:07.380 --> 00:18:08.220
So I'll go with that.

272
00:18:08.279 --> 00:18:09.000
Excellent.

273
00:18:09.059 --> 00:18:09.420
Richard?

274
00:18:09.480 --> 00:18:11.819
Well, there's never been anybody else, has there?

275
00:18:11.940 --> 00:18:15.299
There's been a reason, Delphon eyebrow.

276
00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:20.160
If we're talking about most memorable moment, yeah, I agree.

277
00:18:20.220 --> 00:18:36.720
It does have to be the supporting cast, he also gets, Russell gets in, it's a standard Broadway way of writing that your subcast, you know, your, your Karen and Sean, Jack, yeah, Jack, from, you know, your Bcast is always more fun.

278
00:18:36.779 --> 00:18:43.079
You know, your Niles and Daphne are always more fun than Frasier, who's a scary man anyway.

279
00:18:43.140 --> 00:18:44.819
And back this year, weirdly.

280
00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:48.480
So, yes, anyone, any of the bees.

281
00:18:48.539 --> 00:18:49.859
I love the arc of Mickey.

282
00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:50.700
Yeah.

283
00:18:50.700 --> 00:18:52.079
Really enjoyed that.

284
00:18:52.140 --> 00:18:54.779
But yes, whenever Camille came on screen.

285
00:18:54.839 --> 00:19:02.519
I feel like as if I've been kind of pontooned into this by Nathan's constant glorification of, and rightly so.

286
00:19:02.579 --> 00:19:05.940
But no, it just, it highlights, you know, it makes us look at this.

287
00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:06.480
But yes, it is.

288
00:19:06.539 --> 00:19:07.200
It's probably.

289
00:19:07.259 --> 00:19:13.380
I mean, it's a lovely moments where they chuck over those undeniably ostentatious urns in Satan Pitt. you think, well, they had to go anyway.

290
00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:15.539
It's dreadful.

291
00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:23.880
But no, I do agree that Camille coming back in that little moment, you know, as I just said, well, hardly anyone else.

292
00:19:23.940 --> 00:19:25.980
It really works, really works.

293
00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:30.119
Again, for a lovely sense of he understands what people are watching these things for.

294
00:19:30.180 --> 00:19:35.940
It really does actually feel like an operetto, or maybe even elevate that, but it could work as a Broadway show.

295
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:38.099
Russell's Doctor Who under the tenet area.

296
00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:39.420
It is.

297
00:19:39.420 --> 00:19:41.819
Literally kinky boots out for heels.

298
00:19:43.259 --> 00:19:47.940
These are all wonderful moments and I agree with all of them.

299
00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:54.299
But I do feel that there are 2 moments that I really touch my heart.

300
00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:57.539
One is goodbye, Sarah Jane Smith.

301
00:19:57.779 --> 00:20:00.599
And that whole sequence is just...

302
00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:05.519
It just warms my heart when it appears from behind the...

303
00:20:05.579 --> 00:20:08.519
Yeah, but leading up to that and that way...

304
00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:13.500
It's that thing where the doctor doesn't want to say goodbye.

305
00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:15.839
He wants to brush it off and she won't let him.

306
00:20:15.900 --> 00:20:19.200
She makes him say goodbye properly and it's so good.

307
00:20:19.259 --> 00:20:20.579
She's great in it.

308
00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:25.619
And it also works that she's older than him too, and she has some kind of authority over him.

309
00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:31.619
So she won't let him get away with that sort of the crap that he got away with back when he was Tom Baker.

310
00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:34.740
She makes him say a proper goodbye to her and it's wonderful.

311
00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:42.480
And it's wonderful also because Dave Attendant's such a fan of the series, you know, and there's a lot of subtexts there in all of his scenes with her.

312
00:20:42.539 --> 00:20:44.220
That is just an amazing.

313
00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:45.480
I don't think he's acting at all.

314
00:20:46.019 --> 00:21:04.980
The other moment is at the end of Army of Ghosts, when the Daleks actually appear, just suddenly appear, because you know that it's them or you're 99% certain, but then when it's confirmed, your brain as a fan is going, oh, my God, they're doing Daleks in the side in the one story.

315
00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:05.940
Yeah.

316
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:10.380
I think the music queue, the Dalek music queue appears just seconds before the Daleks do.

317
00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:15.599
How we didn't realise, I don't remember when I realised during the episode that it was going to be them.

318
00:21:15.660 --> 00:21:18.240
But it's a giant Dalek ball.

319
00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:22.799
But I didn't make that connection.

320
00:21:22.859 --> 00:21:25.200
No, they 1st watched...

321
00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:26.579
I've only just made the connection now.

322
00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:31.319
I just kind of went, like rewatching it for the podcast.

323
00:21:31.380 --> 00:21:32.640
I went, Benmark.

324
00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:36.059
How did I not see that?

325
00:21:36.180 --> 00:21:40.380
It's literally a Dalek fear coloured in the same way.

326
00:21:40.500 --> 00:21:43.380
It's so it's so bloody.

327
00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:44.160
So ballsy.

328
00:21:44.220 --> 00:21:54.839
But at the time, at the time, like, when the Simon's saying, it's not our thing and that's the thing, and it's a big round ball thing, like, I remember going to myself, it's got to be the Daleks, it's got to be the Daleks, wanting it to be the Daleks.

329
00:21:54.900 --> 00:21:57.180
It's actually the same moment, isn't it?

330
00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:02.759
Where in, um, is it parting of the ways where the Emperor Dalek says, no bad wolf has nothing to do with us?

331
00:22:02.759 --> 00:22:07.619
And you kind of go, wait, there's a mystery we thought we had that sorted and now it's opened up again.

332
00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:13.140
And the fact that the ball has nothing to do with the cyberman is the same beat, isn't it?

333
00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:20.220
Like Russell does that very well at the end of most of his seasons that we've been leading you down this path.

334
00:22:20.279 --> 00:22:20.640
Flip.

335
00:22:20.700 --> 00:22:22.140
Yeah, he'll do it next year.

336
00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:23.039
We'll talk about it then.

337
00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:26.640
Yeah, probably in a much more successful way with series three.

338
00:22:26.759 --> 00:22:32.640
I would have liked to have been a giant egg and a giant cybermat come out. fantastic.

339
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:43.920
All right, let's move on.

340
00:22:43.980 --> 00:22:46.079
Richard, you're up next.

341
00:22:46.440 --> 00:22:49.140
It's imagining how to go for the next.

342
00:22:49.259 --> 00:22:52.200
Maybe it's a giant yeti control scene.

343
00:22:52.259 --> 00:22:54.539
Oh, why can't I stop it.

344
00:22:55.859 --> 00:22:58.920
No amount of harpic or get rid of them, will it?

345
00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:08.700
I'm really keen to have Jody menaced by the furry beasts from below the rim.

346
00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:11.220
There's an episode title.

347
00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:12.779
Never needed one.

348
00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:17.099
All right, now I have with my with my roomy old eyes.

349
00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:18.180
Oh, I'm happy.

350
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:20.519
It says Jackie and Mickey.

351
00:23:20.579 --> 00:23:26.339
I put the, well, we've just really discussed that, but if you want...

352
00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:45.420
Well, just to very quickly, again, what I'm saying about the Broadway simulancra of this, which is actually based on Jewish musical traditions, our French Joseph Toltz has written on this, that really the whole thing where we can see Doctor Who this season is actually based very much from very old stories.

353
00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:50.759
And in fact, really old stories the way over, here I go on my trope, again, we get to ring a bell.

354
00:23:50.819 --> 00:23:57.599
I guess if you talk about social stories or mythologies that you have cast of characters, I mean, Tolkien does it really well.

355
00:23:57.660 --> 00:24:00.359
We now know, we have to say Tolkien, not Tolkien.

356
00:24:00.420 --> 00:24:00.779
Oh, really?

357
00:24:00.779 --> 00:24:01.859
Yes, the new film coming up.

358
00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:02.940
We say Tolkien.

359
00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:06.059
But I really like the arcing of that.

360
00:24:06.119 --> 00:24:19.259
And if you like the raising of the holy fool character or the slightly simple character who becomes the hero at the end is very much a part of musical tradition and Jewish storytelling.

361
00:24:19.259 --> 00:24:20.460
And now we have it in Doctor Who.

362
00:24:20.519 --> 00:24:23.579
I like how Mickey becomes part of their family.

363
00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:27.839
I can't believe that they're still boyfriend and girlfriend.

364
00:24:27.900 --> 00:24:30.420
They're virtually kind of brother-in-law.

365
00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:31.440
Well, not, are they?

366
00:24:31.500 --> 00:24:33.420
And she says, I'm not up the duff.

367
00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:34.920
I love that.

368
00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:40.799
She's got this few precious moments to say goodbye to the doctor and she pranks him twice.

369
00:24:41.339 --> 00:24:43.380
It's so wonderful.

370
00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:56.400
But I just, it's that family and that relationship in particular over 2 years has been the most interesting one on the show because it's, it's not very well sketched when we 1st see them.

371
00:24:56.460 --> 00:25:15.180
I don't think Jackie and Mickey really interact in Rose, but then in aliens of London, she's been, you know, sticking flaming bags of dog turds on his on his front doorstep for 18 months because she thinks that he's murdered Rose and then they grow together, they fight the sabine together.

372
00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:28.140
And then it's so touching in Love and Monsters again, which I'm currently obsessed with because I'm in the middle of editing the episode, where she talks about how she had a mate who used to come around and help her out and he's gone.

373
00:25:28.200 --> 00:25:30.299
And it's so beautiful.

374
00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:32.279
Like, that relationship is so sweet.

375
00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:37.500
And, you know, everything's about Rose and how, Rose feels and how am I going to cope with you gone?

376
00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:42.480
She says to Mickey when he leaves at the end of the sidemen 2 parter.

377
00:25:42.539 --> 00:25:43.920
But what about Jackie?

378
00:25:43.980 --> 00:25:52.019
You know, um, Rose isn't home, but Mickey was at home and she's lost him and it's heartbreaking and just lovely.

379
00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:55.559
It's my favourite relationship, maybe in the era.

380
00:25:55.859 --> 00:26:01.559
It is incredible. how these 2 supporting characters grow.

381
00:26:01.619 --> 00:26:06.779
And watching this season, I realised up until Love and Monsters.

382
00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:08.819
We don't really have a lot of Jackie at all.

383
00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:19.680
We've got fake Jackie, but her screen time is very minimal, but her presence is there throughout, and it's testament to the writing and it's testament to the performance, just how strong it is.

384
00:26:19.740 --> 00:26:28.259
And I'm just so pleased that that 2nd last episode in the season, she really gets to be the Doctor Who companion and she has her time to shine so brightly in it.

385
00:26:28.380 --> 00:26:37.680
Camille is just the best mum in the show and has not been topped by any, or even come close to anybody. since.

386
00:26:37.740 --> 00:26:40.920
I think Jackie King is very good but I still agree with you.

387
00:26:40.980 --> 00:26:43.200
Oh, in fact, I like all 3 RTD.

388
00:26:43.259 --> 00:26:48.180
Mum's a great deal, but Camille is obviously just my 1st love and maybe my favourite character.

389
00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:49.859
Ian Dr. Hooji.

390
00:26:58.920 --> 00:27:01.619
Nathan, Snog marry a void.

391
00:27:01.740 --> 00:27:03.539
Um, all right.

392
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:04.319
Oh.

393
00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:05.880
Oh my god.

394
00:27:06.180 --> 00:27:09.119
Oh, and just loving monsters again.

395
00:27:09.180 --> 00:27:16.859
So Snog Mary Avoid, Victor Kennedy, the Azorbilov, and the Ursula Brick.

396
00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:25.859
I originally had the hoics or whatever it was, but I thought, I don't want to snog the hoics because those teeth are massive.

397
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:28.500
They're bigger than Billy Piper's, and that's really saying something.

398
00:27:28.619 --> 00:27:33.119
It does seem to be a competition this year for the monsters to outdo Billy's tea.

399
00:27:33.299 --> 00:27:35.400
No, would you want to marry it?

400
00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:43.559
No, I think, I mean, you know, Elton's a nice man. and he virtually marries the Ursula Brick, so I'm sure that that's probably a good choice.

401
00:27:43.619 --> 00:27:58.619
So, um, Well, I'd have to avoid Victor Kennedy because he's got eczema and I'd get sucked into his backside, like poor old Bliss.

402
00:27:58.740 --> 00:28:00.660
And so I'm afraid.

403
00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:02.759
Very misnamed character, wasn't it?

404
00:28:02.819 --> 00:28:03.839
There ever was one.

405
00:28:03.900 --> 00:28:06.539
So I'll have to snog the...

406
00:28:06.599 --> 00:28:06.779
No.

407
00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:08.700
Yes, I'll have to snog the absorblov.

408
00:28:08.759 --> 00:28:09.839
Marry the Absorblov.

409
00:28:09.900 --> 00:28:11.160
Who are you marrying Ursula?

410
00:28:11.220 --> 00:28:12.720
I'm snogging the absorber off.

411
00:28:12.779 --> 00:28:14.579
Marrying Ursula.

412
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:16.500
A lifetime of misery.

413
00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:18.779
Well, no, she's very happy.

414
00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:20.279
She's a brick.

415
00:28:20.759 --> 00:28:22.319
All right.

416
00:28:22.380 --> 00:28:23.519
Oh, it's me.

417
00:28:23.819 --> 00:28:26.400
Okay, what is the series arc?

418
00:28:26.460 --> 00:28:27.420
For you?

419
00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:29.039
What do you think of it?

420
00:28:29.940 --> 00:28:32.880
I was once on a podcast with J.R.

421
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:39.359
Southall, and he said that the difference between Moffatt's series arcs and RTD series arcs.

422
00:28:39.420 --> 00:28:41.700
Is it RTD's ones are purely science fiction?

423
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:50.339
So it's like the parallel universe and the Cyberman and staff, as opposed to, say, the hybrid, which involves the doctor and Clara, or whatever?

424
00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:52.619
I can barely remember those arcs, to be honest.

425
00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:56.339
But here, for me, the series arc is what we've talked about.

426
00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:00.900
It's Rose, Mickey and Jackie and to some degree, Pete.

427
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:03.539
It's the restoration of Rose's family.

428
00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:07.319
Like Rose is neglecting all of those people.

429
00:29:07.380 --> 00:29:08.579
She's lost her father.

430
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:15.059
She's neglecting Mickey and Jackie. in order to run off and do something very inadvisable with the doctor.

431
00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:17.759
And she doesn't make a choice.

432
00:29:17.819 --> 00:29:24.359
She doesn't get to make a choice, but she does end up, I think, probably in a better place than when she started.

433
00:29:24.420 --> 00:29:26.640
So for me, that's the arc.

434
00:29:26.700 --> 00:29:37.740
So it's interesting because you might think it's to do with torture, with the fact that that's throughout everything and torture, but it's coming, but really that's more of a device, not what the undercurrents are.

435
00:29:37.799 --> 00:29:40.740
And I remember we were talking to Stephen B from New to Who.

436
00:29:40.799 --> 00:29:46.559
And for him, this series, from what I understand, is a love story.

437
00:29:46.619 --> 00:29:48.359
And that's his arc.

438
00:29:48.420 --> 00:29:52.140
But I think I would agree more with you that it's about the restoration, the family.

439
00:29:52.200 --> 00:30:00.720
The love story arc is there for Rose for most of it, there's a few episodes where it perhaps isn't, which is an inconsistency which Doctor Who does.

440
00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:04.079
And I can see that point of view, that it's her love story.

441
00:30:04.140 --> 00:30:08.400
The doctor can never quite, this is as close as the doctor ever gets to love with anybody.

442
00:30:08.460 --> 00:30:11.460
Besides perhaps River, song, but she's not really a companion.

443
00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:23.819
So, I think what you've said about the fact that it's the restoration of this family is, in fact, the ark, even though you might on the surface think that it's about torchwood or it's about a love story with rose.

444
00:30:23.880 --> 00:30:26.039
It's actually, I would agree with you.

445
00:30:26.099 --> 00:30:27.059
James, Richard.

446
00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:29.339
I would agree with you on that.

447
00:30:29.400 --> 00:30:35.339
I think the Torchwood Arc is more just a series long promotion for a spinoff series.

448
00:30:35.400 --> 00:30:40.619
If only we'd got the spinoff series based on Tortured One instead of Torture 3.

449
00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:42.299
We might have enjoyed that a bit more.

450
00:30:42.359 --> 00:30:43.740
That's a whole other topic.

451
00:30:43.740 --> 00:30:45.660
When are we doing the tortured podcast?

452
00:30:45.720 --> 00:30:46.920
We're not doing that.

453
00:30:47.339 --> 00:30:50.880
But I would have loved Samantha Briggs to have shown up.

454
00:30:52.380 --> 00:31:07.440
I think I gushed about this at the time, but the torture audio is where they bring back Tracy and Cyberman are fantastic and it just makes me wish that they'd actually just done a series based on the torture in Doctor Who, not that tortured and tortured.

455
00:31:07.500 --> 00:31:10.200
I just wonder whether there's that much there.

456
00:31:10.259 --> 00:31:10.920
Do you know what I mean?

457
00:31:10.980 --> 00:31:15.180
Like it introduces torchwood, but torchwood is just a name that's dropped.

458
00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:18.900
And that's how the previous arc worked.

459
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:22.019
You know, we had bad wolf just as a thing that got mentioned.

460
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:29.460
And then we discover in the final episode that that's a thing that Billy has sent backwards and seeded throughout the season herself.

461
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:37.140
I would have watched the hell out of that if that had been a spinoff with green, tight-suited, lycrid, tennis ball hat man.

462
00:31:37.740 --> 00:31:44.220
Josh, the werewolf. poke your eye out with a tennis ball werewolf.

463
00:31:44.279 --> 00:31:46.559
Yeah, I would have watched it that every fricking week.

464
00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:58.500
Oh, so let's talk about the things that were disappointing.

465
00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:00.839
Oh, did you get the best one?

466
00:32:00.900 --> 00:32:02.039
So the pit.

467
00:32:02.099 --> 00:32:12.180
So the pit we talked about this a couple of weeks ago where the pit opens at the cliffhanger and the camera climbs out of it as if something's coming to get Ida and the doctor.

468
00:32:12.299 --> 00:32:17.160
And of course, it turns out that it was just the camera because nothing actually comes out of the pit.

469
00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:21.539
So sorry, just to clarify, you've picked things that disappoint.

470
00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:22.799
And I called it the pit.

471
00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:34.980
I think what disappoints Auros Lynn's 2 episodes, so that's the Lantern and fear her, I think they're too similar.

472
00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:38.880
You know, like I like Doctor Who does domestic.

473
00:32:38.940 --> 00:32:40.500
I like a small scale thing.

474
00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:41.700
I get the idea.

475
00:32:41.819 --> 00:32:43.799
You know, it's not a big Doctor Who adventure.

476
00:32:43.859 --> 00:32:46.200
Austin also did tooth and claw though.

477
00:32:46.259 --> 00:32:47.700
Oh, okay, yeah, yeah.

478
00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:48.539
See, that's good.

479
00:32:48.599 --> 00:32:54.299
But I do think the other two, which were in one block and for one terrifying moment, were going to be aired consecutively.

480
00:32:54.420 --> 00:32:59.339
And I just don't think either of them is as good as it should be.

481
00:32:59.400 --> 00:33:10.440
And I think Idiot Scientists better than the other one, but Idiot's Lantern, we said in our episode, was marred by that terrible performance from Eddie, who was just terrible.

482
00:33:10.500 --> 00:33:19.019
Yeah, I think I think those 2 episodes, to me, come across as the cheapest of the year, especially Fear Herb, which I'll have more to say a bit later.

483
00:33:19.079 --> 00:33:25.440
That's interesting when I listened to your podcast on the Idiot's Lantern, I came away liking the episode a little less.

484
00:33:26.339 --> 00:33:31.319
And it's the only episode this year that I actually liked a little less.

485
00:33:31.380 --> 00:33:34.680
Everything else was either the same or better.

486
00:33:34.740 --> 00:33:42.900
So, yeah. that's probably the most disappointing aspect Well, the thing I pulled out of one of the bowls was moment you'd rather forget, which...

487
00:33:42.900 --> 00:33:44.339
It's the same thing to that, doesn't it?

488
00:33:44.819 --> 00:33:52.740
I think it has to be the paving stone fellatio scene. worst album cover.

489
00:33:53.400 --> 00:33:59.460
It's just, it just doesn't fit into the show that you're making.

490
00:33:59.579 --> 00:34:01.019
It's a snide.

491
00:34:01.079 --> 00:34:02.940
I'm almost an undergraduate humour.

492
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:08.280
Taking a stab at the show we love, yeah. and putting wrong humour tones.

493
00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:13.619
And just cheapening the relationship that's built up between those 2 characters for the whole episode.

494
00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:17.219
I actually don't I don't know what you're talking about, James.

495
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:18.119
They snog.

496
00:34:18.179 --> 00:34:19.559
They have a bit of a love life.

497
00:34:19.619 --> 00:34:20.519
They still snog.

498
00:34:20.579 --> 00:34:22.739
I don't know what on earth you are thinking.

499
00:34:22.860 --> 00:34:25.440
Doctor Who does not do Snide World.

500
00:34:25.500 --> 00:34:27.719
It shouldn't ever go down there.

501
00:34:27.780 --> 00:34:29.340
Richard.

502
00:34:29.340 --> 00:34:33.719
Oh, I've got what your one was just, again, disappointed.

503
00:34:33.780 --> 00:34:34.920
I've got a favourite guest star.

504
00:34:34.980 --> 00:34:37.739
I could say most disappointing guest star, but maybe often.

505
00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:39.719
Sometimes often that's the same thing.

506
00:34:39.780 --> 00:34:41.340
Isn't it?

507
00:34:41.400 --> 00:34:43.679
I'm just saying no one's really disappointed me this season.

508
00:34:43.739 --> 00:34:47.519
Even Eddie was a blustering fallen in Idiot's Lantern.

509
00:34:47.579 --> 00:34:53.400
It probably is my favourite story just because it's what I listen to all the time, you know, the 50s nonsense on the radio.

510
00:34:53.940 --> 00:34:57.539
Even he fits nicely because he's so...

511
00:34:57.539 --> 00:35:06.179
Again, it's looking in Doctor Who from maybe even a wider angle is that when they don't give a resolved or fully realised performance.

512
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:20.340
I look at it and I think, well, that's what a lot of people are actually like, completely undiscovered of their own internal territories and completely unable to register any truths of themselves or anybody else because they just don't know who they are themselves.

513
00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:26.219
So I think that actually the inconsistencies in performance in that story make it work really well.

514
00:35:26.280 --> 00:35:28.380
And I love Ron Cook and I love Maureen Lippman.

515
00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:30.900
So again, Maureen, mini is actually my favourite guest in this.

516
00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:35.340
Because it's just what Nathan and I would have done, given 3 quarters of a chance and half a Lippy between us.

517
00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:38.400
It's my turn to do the stare.

518
00:35:38.760 --> 00:35:41.940
Favourite guess wise. agree with you.

519
00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:43.320
More in Lippin.

520
00:35:43.500 --> 00:35:47.760
And mainly because what I discovered after we did that podcast.

521
00:35:47.820 --> 00:35:48.960
What agony?

522
00:35:49.019 --> 00:35:49.619
Agony.

523
00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:51.059
Wasn't that exciting?

524
00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:57.119
I think delving into her back catalogue, that sounds a bit more...

525
00:35:58.199 --> 00:36:10.019
It makes me love her even more, having found her previous work and like Nathan and I binge watched Agne at the same time.

526
00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:10.920
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

527
00:36:10.980 --> 00:36:14.400
We were texting each other and finishing episodes sort of minutes apart.

528
00:36:14.460 --> 00:36:16.920
I've still got to get and watch it that I'm in now, thank you.

529
00:36:16.980 --> 00:36:19.380
I wish I hadn't watched Agony again afterwards.

530
00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:20.579
It's a bit terrible.

531
00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:24.059
Though her gay son. should I have said that?

532
00:36:24.119 --> 00:36:25.260
It's quite sweet.

533
00:36:25.320 --> 00:36:25.739
Yeah.

534
00:36:25.800 --> 00:36:31.019
She is certainly a standout. in that episode and something that sticks in your mind.

535
00:36:31.079 --> 00:36:35.880
I just wish you'd done the Gabriel Wolf voice as well. hungry.

536
00:36:35.940 --> 00:36:38.880
My favourite guest star of the year is Elizabeth Slater.

537
00:36:38.940 --> 00:36:39.539
Oh, yeah.

538
00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:40.440
Fair enough.

539
00:36:40.500 --> 00:36:41.460
Mine's Ida.

540
00:36:41.519 --> 00:36:45.360
I think Ida Scott in the Satan Pitt is incredibly good.

541
00:36:45.420 --> 00:36:48.059
Yeah, I don't see Liz as guest.

542
00:36:48.119 --> 00:36:49.079
I see her as core cast.

543
00:36:49.139 --> 00:36:50.099
Yeah, she's family.

544
00:36:50.820 --> 00:36:53.159
Yeah, She's too terrible.

545
00:36:53.219 --> 00:36:54.179
She's a recurring character.

546
00:36:54.239 --> 00:36:56.519
In fact, really, she's got more right to be there than any of the others.

547
00:36:56.579 --> 00:36:58.440
Even David Tennant.

548
00:36:58.500 --> 00:36:59.039
Well, exactly.

549
00:36:59.099 --> 00:37:01.619
The other one I would then choose is Queen Victoria.

550
00:37:01.679 --> 00:37:02.699
Oh yeah, yeah.

551
00:37:02.760 --> 00:37:03.960
Samantha Briggs.

552
00:37:16.079 --> 00:37:24.059
Let's move on to It's a Wrap, which is about end of the season, so I'll go with Nathan.

553
00:37:24.119 --> 00:37:26.639
Okay, let's see what comes out of this.

554
00:37:26.699 --> 00:37:27.780
I can't remember what I put in here.

555
00:37:28.380 --> 00:37:32.280
Oh, we need Jenny Ladd Award nominations.

556
00:37:32.340 --> 00:37:35.099
We've been doing a few of those already, haven't we?

557
00:37:35.219 --> 00:37:37.260
Kind of, but I've neglected.

558
00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:38.820
It's a Mayor Cooper for me.

559
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:44.340
I've completely forgotten about the Jenny Laird Award and I think I'm happy to see it reinstated from here on.

560
00:37:44.820 --> 00:38:12.659
I think the most puzzling creative choice was giving something like Idiots Lantern and Fear Her, to our Oslin, who's not great with actors, who's very good with action and moving the camera around and stuff like that, but isn't that great with actors, and those are stories that absolutely live and die by the quality of the act, because because they're the cheapies, and because they're all about family interactions and stuff like that.

561
00:38:12.719 --> 00:38:15.659
And I think the acting needed to be better in both of those.

562
00:38:16.739 --> 00:38:18.239
James?

563
00:38:18.719 --> 00:38:23.519
Well, I was going to say the scribble monster from Fear Her, but we love that.

564
00:38:23.579 --> 00:38:27.059
But you can actually say that, James. if you want to.

565
00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:34.860
I'll draw all over Richard's point from earlier in the episode has swayed my opinion on that.

566
00:38:34.920 --> 00:38:37.139
I think you're right.

567
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:40.440
Like as a child, big scary dirty in the closet.

568
00:38:40.500 --> 00:38:42.300
I mean, there's a whole lot to take away from it.

569
00:38:42.360 --> 00:38:46.440
Yeah, actually the big scary daddy in the closet is actually quite horrific.

570
00:38:46.500 --> 00:38:47.280
It is.

571
00:38:47.340 --> 00:38:52.679
Any little child who fear to, you know, oh, let's not go there because there's a whole lot in this story. yeah.

572
00:38:52.739 --> 00:38:57.420
It's a pity that fear her doesn't quite hold together direction wise.

573
00:38:58.019 --> 00:38:58.619
Is that what it is?

574
00:38:58.679 --> 00:38:59.219
It's the direction.

575
00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:00.900
Because I feel it is a strong story.

576
00:39:00.960 --> 00:39:05.579
And honestly, as a viewer, I don't get the connection between idiots lantern and fear at all.

577
00:39:05.639 --> 00:39:11.039
I can see it in construct and looking from, but when you're in there, it's just, oh, no, it's all, it's completely different.

578
00:39:11.039 --> 00:39:14.159
Because, I mean, Doctor Who only has how many stories did we defined in the three?

579
00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:18.360
There's 12 stories in the universe and 3 on Doctor Who.

580
00:39:19.860 --> 00:39:23.760
But no, I think I think you're right.

581
00:39:23.820 --> 00:39:25.320
Like, it appeals to the child.

582
00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:27.900
And that, that, so, so I'm not going to say that.

583
00:39:27.960 --> 00:39:29.340
I'm going to say David Tennant's teeth.

584
00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:30.059
Okay.

585
00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:30.659
Thank you.

586
00:39:30.719 --> 00:39:31.619
Richard.

587
00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:41.219
Well, I'm going to take the Nathan stick and go for go for the very wine view, the satellite view of the series.

588
00:39:41.280 --> 00:39:44.940
I think my journey Laird award might be for production.

589
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:46.440
Oh, can I go this far?

590
00:39:46.500 --> 00:39:49.380
Production arcing tone from season one to season two.

591
00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:53.699
I feel we've actually gone from Ridley Scott to James Cameron.

592
00:39:53.760 --> 00:40:00.239
And I know that that's the way the series will go forever on and it guarantees bums onseatsuccess.com.

593
00:40:00.300 --> 00:40:10.260
But I really love the portmanteau talented amateur approach to season one, though, what the hell are we doing running by the skin of our pants, Heath Robertson?

594
00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:13.679
Let's just bundle it all together and do something whimsical and magical.

595
00:40:13.739 --> 00:40:28.860
When Disney was actually still fun to corporate Disney, which we now have with this season, that everything's been studied, and it's all been looked at through the lens of a viewscreen rather than a monocle, and it's been it's suited.

596
00:40:28.920 --> 00:40:31.079
It's suited and tied and it's proper.

597
00:40:31.139 --> 00:40:32.460
And I know what it's doing.

598
00:40:32.519 --> 00:40:37.980
I can see where it's going and I don't like the sense of the construct.

599
00:40:38.039 --> 00:40:43.019
The form is lovely, but formulaic is not Doctor Who.

600
00:40:43.079 --> 00:40:45.119
This is why I still love the Graham Williams era.

601
00:40:45.179 --> 00:40:51.539
And anything that Douglas Adams did, it's still my go-to for viewing because it's dangerously untidy.

602
00:40:51.599 --> 00:40:53.280
And I sort of miss that.

603
00:40:53.340 --> 00:40:55.260
I absolutely agree with you.

604
00:40:55.320 --> 00:41:02.760
And I don't know whether I've said this recently, but the thing about series one is that they don't know that it's going to be successful.

605
00:41:02.820 --> 00:41:03.840
No, you really don't.

606
00:41:03.900 --> 00:41:22.019
But when they're making it, they've got no idea of what the reaction is, they go into series 2 knowing that this is going to be the biggest show on TV and they know that fans will put up with a whole lot more fanboyness than they were prepared to do in series one.

607
00:41:22.139 --> 00:41:29.159
So series one seems to me to be super experimental in a way that series 2 isn't.

608
00:41:29.219 --> 00:41:34.559
And I really feel that I think you've expressed that really well.

609
00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:37.440
This is all very metal.

610
00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:40.559
I was going to say that this week.

611
00:41:40.619 --> 00:41:41.579
We not up to Moffat yet.

612
00:41:41.639 --> 00:41:44.460
Because I go for much more obvious things.

613
00:41:44.519 --> 00:41:45.719
I've got multiple nominations.

614
00:41:45.780 --> 00:41:46.559
I'm just going to start.

615
00:41:46.619 --> 00:41:49.320
The entire terrible London Olympics from fear her.

616
00:41:49.860 --> 00:41:51.539
Well, yeah.

617
00:41:51.539 --> 00:41:53.099
The old grand from fear.

618
00:41:53.159 --> 00:41:55.139
Oh, she was my favourite.

619
00:41:55.199 --> 00:41:57.420
I was her, let's say.

620
00:41:57.480 --> 00:41:59.340
My name's Chloe Webber.

621
00:41:59.340 --> 00:42:00.239
From Fear Her.

622
00:42:00.300 --> 00:42:02.280
The mother from Fear Herb for ruining.

623
00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:04.199
Kookaburra sits in the old gum tree.

624
00:42:04.260 --> 00:42:05.159
She did ruin it.

625
00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:06.840
Mary, Mary King of the Bushes.

626
00:42:06.900 --> 00:42:07.139
He.

627
00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:09.000
Todd's going to give this story a three.

628
00:42:10.139 --> 00:42:13.079
Eddie Connolly from Idiot Lantern.

629
00:42:13.139 --> 00:42:14.760
John Lumick.

630
00:42:14.820 --> 00:42:16.199
Oh yeah, he's bad.

631
00:42:16.380 --> 00:42:31.860
From the 1st Simon and 2 Parter, and Ricky, from The Cyberman 2 Parter, played by Noel Clark, is also in my nominations, because he just gives angry sex face the entire episode, and I hate that creative puzzling choice.

632
00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:33.539
James and I are clutching each other.

633
00:42:33.599 --> 00:42:34.139
Yes.

634
00:42:34.139 --> 00:42:37.800
Where is my Noel Clark angry sex face?

635
00:42:37.860 --> 00:42:40.619
I had to say this, I think, Noel, it's Mickey.

636
00:42:40.619 --> 00:42:42.960
I'm just ignoring. ignoring, I'm ignoring.

637
00:42:43.019 --> 00:42:45.900
Sorry, I'm just ignoring everything that you've just said.

638
00:42:45.960 --> 00:42:49.500
You know, that whole thing when they growl when they, oh, I know, I love angry sex first.

639
00:42:49.559 --> 00:42:50.760
I know that you're listening.

640
00:42:50.820 --> 00:42:53.159
Are we allowed to say angry sex face on the podcast?

641
00:42:53.219 --> 00:42:54.059
It's going to be the time.

642
00:42:54.059 --> 00:42:54.480
Tag.

643
00:42:55.559 --> 00:43:01.739
You always approach these with such professionalism and they always demount into blanc mange, don't they?

644
00:43:01.800 --> 00:43:02.699
They do.

645
00:43:02.699 --> 00:43:05.039
I'd like blame out...

646
00:43:05.579 --> 00:43:11.460
Look, you had a really good discussion about why he was like that in the bravado that he was putting on.

647
00:43:11.579 --> 00:43:13.079
I'm not sold.

648
00:43:13.139 --> 00:43:17.699
And I think Noel's performance as Mickey is so nuanced in that story.

649
00:43:17.699 --> 00:43:21.480
As a contrast, I find that other performance one note.

650
00:43:21.539 --> 00:43:23.579
So I'm putting it up for a nomination.

651
00:43:23.639 --> 00:43:25.139
So they're all my nominations.

652
00:43:25.260 --> 00:43:35.519
But surprise, surprise, they're not the winner. that Jenny Eledwald goes to the end of Love and Monsters turning Ushua into the brick, which I really dislike.

653
00:43:35.639 --> 00:43:37.500
I don't know how you could get around it.

654
00:43:37.559 --> 00:43:40.800
He's never going to be able to move on with his life.

655
00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:45.000
And I just think that she should have had a moment with him and died.

656
00:43:45.059 --> 00:43:46.920
And I just think it was the wrong choice.

657
00:43:46.980 --> 00:43:50.460
And that ruin, that ending ruins that story for me.

658
00:43:50.519 --> 00:43:54.840
You have to remember that when I 1st saw this story, I gave it a one out of 10, right?

659
00:43:54.900 --> 00:43:58.440
And over the years, I've actually grown to love so much of it.

660
00:43:58.500 --> 00:44:01.139
But when it gets to that, it just...

661
00:44:01.139 --> 00:44:07.440
We actually are recording this on the weekend that I'm editing and releasing the Love and Monsters episode.

662
00:44:07.500 --> 00:44:11.340
So I'll be interested to hear what you think of it.

663
00:44:11.400 --> 00:44:25.139
Everyone listening to this now or many of the people listening to this episode now will have heard that episode already and our take on what happens to Ursula and that very objection, that it would have been better if she died.

664
00:44:25.199 --> 00:44:33.659
So we do talk about that and have a listen to it because I was surprised by where that episode of FTE ended up going.

665
00:44:33.719 --> 00:44:38.219
See, to me, that story is the 6 out of 10 and that's because of the ending.

666
00:44:38.280 --> 00:44:40.019
You know, and I used to hate it.

667
00:44:40.079 --> 00:44:43.920
But now I really love so much of it. all the Jackie Elton stuff and all that team.

668
00:44:43.980 --> 00:44:47.159
But it just, at the end, just is ruined.

669
00:44:47.159 --> 00:44:49.800
And for me, that's my Jenny Letterboard.

670
00:44:49.860 --> 00:44:51.239
Sorry, Russell, but you get it.

671
00:44:51.539 --> 00:44:54.000
Yeah, well, you've been wrong before.

672
00:44:55.800 --> 00:44:57.900
Rarely, Nathan.

673
00:44:57.960 --> 00:44:58.980
Rarely.

674
00:45:03.239 --> 00:45:05.099
Oh, Todd.

675
00:45:05.159 --> 00:45:09.840
What do you think of series 2 now?

676
00:45:10.619 --> 00:45:13.019
What do you think of series 2 now?

677
00:45:13.079 --> 00:45:17.099
As opposed to back as opposed to back then. back then I just saw it as a wonderful romp.

678
00:45:17.519 --> 00:45:19.739
And we were terribly excited.

679
00:45:19.800 --> 00:45:23.699
There's the thrill, the Elan of never having seen something before.

680
00:45:23.760 --> 00:45:30.300
And we watched a lot of these, if you recall, back at Nathan's house with Todd in the room, so no one was allowed just...

681
00:45:30.360 --> 00:45:33.539
We watched them very carefully.

682
00:45:33.719 --> 00:45:44.460
We did, and which is not something we do anymore because we've got laptops and flip tops and duck hair and everything else that we all do, you know, it's all very post-David Tenet.

683
00:45:45.420 --> 00:45:47.940
I don't go back to these now.

684
00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:49.139
It's interesting, isn't it?

685
00:45:49.199 --> 00:45:58.559
But the thing that I really, really, that I have enjoyed watching again this season is the arcing of characterisations and the musical comedy sense of it again.

686
00:45:58.619 --> 00:46:02.159
So, yes, I think we've touched on all of those people of import.

687
00:46:02.219 --> 00:46:03.659
I do like the variants in tone.

688
00:46:03.719 --> 00:46:06.420
I do like that we jump from tooth and claw.

689
00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:17.400
Then we get Satan Pitt, we get a whole lot of lovely things that if we think back to our childhoods, we remember Doctor Who being as good as this, if not a little bit better, but it really wasn't.

690
00:46:17.400 --> 00:46:24.179
You'd sort of have to wait 3 years to get everything that we've had in one year, it does feel like 3 years worth of stories.

691
00:46:24.239 --> 00:46:31.139
So, if I think of it, no, I see it as far more polished than I would remember it because they've put more time into it.

692
00:46:31.199 --> 00:46:40.619
But again, it doesn't quite have the sense of newly discovered joy, the freshly hatched feeling that the year before.

693
00:46:40.679 --> 00:46:44.579
I'm interested to see what comes along for season 3 and how I feel about that.

694
00:46:44.699 --> 00:46:52.619
It's interesting because this of the 1st 5 seasons of Doctor Who's always been my least liked.

695
00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:58.980
And it came down to the cyberman stories, which I really rated quite averagely.

696
00:46:59.039 --> 00:47:04.980
And all of those episodes, especially the 1st parts of both of the 2 partners.

697
00:47:05.039 --> 00:47:10.980
I've just really have enjoyed so much more, like 9 out of 10s, whereas they were 7 before.

698
00:47:11.039 --> 00:47:14.039
And that's really impacted on my enjoyment of this season.

699
00:47:14.099 --> 00:47:23.820
And all of the stories bar, fear her and Idiots Lantern, have in some way increased in my mind.

700
00:47:23.880 --> 00:47:28.800
So it's really been a rehabilitation of this entire season in the arc for me.

701
00:47:28.920 --> 00:47:31.980
I think I remain sort of more or less unchanged.

702
00:47:32.039 --> 00:47:42.179
I feel the way that Richard and I were talking about the relationships between series one and 2 that there's something a bit less exciting about coming at it for the 2nd year.

703
00:47:42.239 --> 00:47:54.119
But I think I've also said this year that as well as writing it confident in the fact that it'll be well received, they are also writing it, having learned what worked and what didn't work last year.

704
00:47:54.179 --> 00:47:58.559
And so Series one has a very, very special place in my heart.

705
00:47:58.619 --> 00:48:02.639
But I think series 2 is is very good and I think I probably always have thought that.

706
00:48:02.940 --> 00:48:05.159
Do you have anything to add, James?

707
00:48:05.219 --> 00:48:13.739
Look, I think that series 2 is not it doesn't have as much joy and spontaneity in it as series one.

708
00:48:13.800 --> 00:48:18.539
It is more polished and it is more consistent for the most part.

709
00:48:18.599 --> 00:48:27.360
I think they've worked out what works for them stylistically and what works with the way that the show is structured now.

710
00:48:27.420 --> 00:48:42.719
Um, There are a few episodes that don't quite fit or um, don't quite gel in the, in the way that you'd like them to, but overall, it's a much more level season.

711
00:48:42.780 --> 00:48:47.699
It doesn't have the highs and lows that parts of series one had.

712
00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:59.639
But, um, I think it it lacks something because of the, the lack of sort of less throw everything and the kitchen sink at it, which series one had. like we've got to make this a success.

713
00:48:59.699 --> 00:49:03.719
We just have to, you know, let's give it an arrow.

714
00:49:03.780 --> 00:49:06.179
Whereas I think they're a bit more relaxed there.

715
00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:11.340
And you end up with something which is probably a bit more...

716
00:49:11.400 --> 00:49:14.639
See, I think this has got a lower load in fear her.

717
00:49:14.699 --> 00:49:17.579
I don't think there's anything as close to that as the previous season.

718
00:49:17.639 --> 00:49:19.860
That's my only difference of opinion, perhaps there.

719
00:49:19.980 --> 00:49:21.360
All right, here's here's a topic for you.

720
00:49:21.599 --> 00:49:24.119
Daleks or Cyberman.

721
00:49:24.179 --> 00:49:29.820
I think this is an old age one where Doctor Who fans of classic Elk.

722
00:49:29.880 --> 00:49:33.179
Are you a Spider-Man person or are you a Dalek person?

723
00:49:33.239 --> 00:49:42.480
You could be both, but for me, I've always been a dialect person, which is why this season perhaps suffered a bit because it was the cyberman.

724
00:49:42.539 --> 00:49:52.079
I really never really enjoyed a lot of the Sidemen stories in Classic Who as much as I enjoyed the Dalek stories, although Revenge of the Side of them, I really enjoyed.

725
00:49:52.139 --> 00:49:54.420
But for the side of them, that's more than the side women.

726
00:49:54.480 --> 00:50:08.099
But it was really interesting discussions that you had during the year in the podcast talking about the fact that this year the cybermen have got back to actually being cybermen and converting people, which is something that never really happened from the 70s onwards in Doctor Who.

727
00:50:08.159 --> 00:50:10.619
So I actually found them a lot more disturbing this time around.

728
00:50:10.679 --> 00:50:12.780
But I'm still a Dalek person over a cyberman person.

729
00:50:12.840 --> 00:50:21.900
Well, I mean, the sidemen are very much after the moon base, just the monsters that come along when Terry Nation's in LA trying to flog the dialects.

730
00:50:21.960 --> 00:50:27.960
And so they always have that sort of 2nd rate sort of feel to them.

731
00:50:29.400 --> 00:50:47.159
And so I think that Russell does a tremendous job reinventing the Cybermen, and I think the stories, the Cybermen stories are great here and he really gives the Sidemen a shot in the arm, which then Moffatt will go on to do much later as well.

732
00:50:47.280 --> 00:50:50.099
But yeah, it's the Daleks.

733
00:50:50.159 --> 00:50:59.820
Well, I refute your heteronormative binary condition. in this and I think you can actually have everything at once.

734
00:50:59.940 --> 00:51:06.539
And again, I only, I don't really have a preference, but I like them when they're both together at the end.

735
00:51:06.539 --> 00:51:12.059
And then it proves to me there's sort of the, why that is such a special moment.

736
00:51:12.119 --> 00:51:24.840
Okay, I'm going to meta the hell out of this, is that, right at the end with Doomsday, you see the antagonists, you see the threat, do we say ostensible threat from another bingo point to this?

737
00:51:24.900 --> 00:51:39.059
I hope you've got your card there because we've covered a lot of them today, is that they're both ineffectual, numbing and numbed themselves and with such very small apertures to life.

738
00:51:39.119 --> 00:51:43.019
They are pretty much having just gone through an election that I don't feel very comfortable about.

739
00:51:43.079 --> 00:51:58.920
Some of our listeners are still going through Brexit and we have other listeners who are dealing with what's happening in the US and I feel wherever we are, we have to remember that those that wish to threaten and control, when we look at them from a great enough position standing back.

740
00:51:58.980 --> 00:52:07.139
And I'm thinking about some of the camera angles they got with that crane in that massive loading dock hall, with the big Dalek ball, James.

741
00:52:07.139 --> 00:52:10.559
And yes.

742
00:52:10.619 --> 00:52:10.920
Thank you.

743
00:52:10.980 --> 00:52:17.340
All of that is that you could see actually how small and futile and such hurt little 2 year olds.

744
00:52:17.400 --> 00:52:25.380
They all are, both the Daleks and the sidemen, and that it's really just representing such a very small part of ourselves that is only large when we allow it to be.

745
00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:27.539
It's why they scream, isn't it?

746
00:52:27.599 --> 00:52:29.760
It's why the Dalek scream.

747
00:52:30.900 --> 00:52:32.219
Yeah.

748
00:52:32.219 --> 00:52:45.300
Yeah, that really, these valuable lessons to try against microcontrol against trying to tell others what to do. isn't that really what Russell's been telling us all the time?

749
00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:46.619
Enjoy your messiness.

750
00:52:46.679 --> 00:52:47.639
Enjoy your rust.

751
00:52:47.699 --> 00:52:53.699
You know, but Liz and I and K9 have quite a bit of rust on us and I'm celebrating it right now.

752
00:52:53.760 --> 00:52:56.760
James Heidman or Daleks or both or neither.

753
00:52:56.820 --> 00:53:00.119
Well, I refuse both.

754
00:53:00.179 --> 00:53:03.539
I choose I choose the axles.

755
00:53:03.599 --> 00:53:05.159
Axons.

756
00:53:05.219 --> 00:53:06.000
I love the axel.

757
00:53:06.059 --> 00:53:07.440
Why hadn't they been brought back?

758
00:53:07.559 --> 00:53:09.719
Well, they were. painted green.

759
00:53:09.780 --> 00:53:11.519
No, they were too.

760
00:53:11.579 --> 00:53:14.159
Yeah, look, I mean, the Daleks in this happened.

761
00:53:14.219 --> 00:53:20.880
Yes, look, there are all these fun stories, but there's so much more to this show than those 2 enemies.

762
00:53:20.940 --> 00:53:23.699
There's so many more stories that you can tell.

763
00:53:23.760 --> 00:53:27.000
I find those stories often very limiting.

764
00:53:27.059 --> 00:53:27.780
I enjoy them.

765
00:53:27.840 --> 00:53:36.000
But what can you do after you've done the invasion plotline, the, you know, loss of humanity plotline?

766
00:53:36.059 --> 00:53:36.900
What else is there?

767
00:53:42.960 --> 00:53:46.019
Okay, we're heading towards our final 2 topics.

768
00:53:46.139 --> 00:53:50.280
The 1st one is David Tennant and Billy Piper.

769
00:53:50.460 --> 00:53:52.440
Battle of the teeth.

770
00:53:54.239 --> 00:53:56.219
And that's our title.

771
00:53:56.280 --> 00:53:58.920
It is like an Ultraman episode, isn't it?

772
00:53:59.039 --> 00:54:03.780
Do they work together as well as Eccles and Billy did?

773
00:54:03.960 --> 00:54:05.820
I think they work better.

774
00:54:05.880 --> 00:54:08.280
I think they do work very well together.

775
00:54:08.340 --> 00:54:09.659
Different pictures. is, yeah.

776
00:54:09.719 --> 00:54:11.099
Because they're friends.

777
00:54:11.159 --> 00:54:15.360
By the end of series one, nobody's a friend with Christopher Eccleston.

778
00:54:15.420 --> 00:54:16.800
You do get that sense, don't you?

779
00:54:16.860 --> 00:54:17.579
But I really like that.

780
00:54:17.639 --> 00:54:21.239
But watching it, I find that tension really interesting.

781
00:54:21.300 --> 00:54:22.260
The doctor is a loner.

782
00:54:22.320 --> 00:54:24.360
He's a deeply unhappy, lonely person.

783
00:54:24.420 --> 00:54:24.960
I'm right here.

784
00:54:25.019 --> 00:54:31.019
And I feel that I feel that that just lends so much grit and weight in my in past stories.

785
00:54:31.079 --> 00:54:40.739
The one where Tom says goodbye to Liz, the one where Pert says goodbye. without even looking them in the eye. without even looking them in the eye.

786
00:54:40.800 --> 00:54:42.599
They're the precious moments for me, Todd.

787
00:54:42.659 --> 00:54:43.980
But you're quite right, Richard.

788
00:54:44.039 --> 00:54:48.840
Like we've got the same situation with Sarah Jane Smith and the 3rd doctor, that dynamic.

789
00:54:48.900 --> 00:54:50.460
I love that dynamic.

790
00:54:50.519 --> 00:54:53.099
But it's very different to the 4th doctor and Sarah Jane.

791
00:54:53.159 --> 00:54:56.159
It's the same with Clara and the 11 and Clara and 12.

792
00:54:56.400 --> 00:55:12.480
And I think if one thing I can take away from this is that having a companion with 2 doctors and having like a year with each really, all these quick companion changeovers just before a doctor leaves or at the same time, I think you're robbed of something.

793
00:55:12.539 --> 00:55:13.980
Yeah.

794
00:55:14.039 --> 00:55:16.739
I wish Janet had stayed for 10 years now.

795
00:55:16.800 --> 00:55:19.980
I mean, wouldn't Janet have been amazing with Colin, though?

796
00:55:20.039 --> 00:55:21.119
Yeah, yeah, just for those.

797
00:55:21.179 --> 00:55:22.500
Someone who couldn't bully.

798
00:55:22.559 --> 00:55:24.480
Well, it would have been great.

799
00:55:24.539 --> 00:55:27.300
But we've all seen that interfix with sometimes.

800
00:55:27.659 --> 00:55:44.820
I think one of the things about David Tennant's performance this year is that, and you've hit upon this a number of times, Nathan, is that when we're away from it, we go into the default of, yes, it's all big hair and his shtick and everything, but you come back to it and you watch these episodes and he, I'm totally entertained by him.

801
00:55:44.880 --> 00:55:47.159
Totally in the moment, right?

802
00:55:47.219 --> 00:55:49.980
And I'll rubbish him, you know, away from it.

803
00:55:50.039 --> 00:55:57.239
It's a bit like what happened with Pertwee in the 90s with fandom is that he got rubbished and then you come back to it and you actually realise this is so enjoyable and you're so good.

804
00:55:57.300 --> 00:55:58.260
Yeah.

805
00:55:58.320 --> 00:55:59.039
I think that's right.

806
00:55:59.099 --> 00:56:04.079
I mean, I'm looking forward to seeing how I react to his performances in series 3 and four.

807
00:56:04.139 --> 00:56:07.800
But he has some great moments all the way through.

808
00:56:07.860 --> 00:56:10.800
I think we're actually just seeing Mirror Universe.

809
00:56:10.860 --> 00:56:12.000
Tom Zero.

810
00:56:12.059 --> 00:56:14.880
So he'll be meeting Louise Jamieson next year, won't he?

811
00:56:14.940 --> 00:56:16.860
We're counting it.

812
00:56:16.920 --> 00:56:18.059
Yes, I wonder how that will go.

813
00:56:18.119 --> 00:56:19.800
Any thoughts, James?

814
00:56:19.860 --> 00:56:22.380
I think David Turner's a very good actor.

815
00:56:22.440 --> 00:56:34.619
But he's limited by, and I think, Nathan, you've said this a number of times before, he's limited by having to do the Cod Cockney Dick Van Dyke accent.

816
00:56:34.679 --> 00:56:43.019
And when he's doing a quiet, considered scene, he's brilliant, but when he's doing the doctor shtick.

817
00:56:43.079 --> 00:56:45.000
It can be grating.

818
00:56:45.059 --> 00:56:45.900
You still enjoy it.

819
00:56:45.960 --> 00:56:48.059
I still enjoy all of series two.

820
00:56:48.420 --> 00:56:51.960
I think he gets better as he goes further on.

821
00:56:52.019 --> 00:57:07.739
Series 4 is still my favourite season, I think, of the new series because of the fact that you end up with Catherine Tate and she's a bloody good actress.

822
00:57:07.800 --> 00:57:11.039
I mean, she's, she's, whatever you think of her comedy.

823
00:57:11.099 --> 00:57:12.420
I enjoy her comedy.

824
00:57:12.840 --> 00:57:18.420
But she's a very good actress and I think, you know, not getting ahead of ourselves.

825
00:57:18.719 --> 00:57:24.900
When David Turn is given more to work with, he's very good.

826
00:57:24.960 --> 00:57:26.760
He rises to that performance?

827
00:57:26.820 --> 00:57:27.239
Yeah.

828
00:57:27.300 --> 00:57:27.840
Yeah.

829
00:57:27.840 --> 00:57:30.179
He's okay in series two.

830
00:57:30.300 --> 00:57:31.079
All right.

831
00:57:31.139 --> 00:57:34.860
Well, let's talk about the departing cast member, Billy Piper.

832
00:57:34.920 --> 00:57:38.519
I think she's been an absolute, amazing actress these 2 seasons.

833
00:57:38.579 --> 00:57:43.980
She sells every scene that she's in, the tears that she can produce and the emotions.

834
00:57:44.039 --> 00:57:48.119
We've discussed so much about roses, immaturity and self-centredness.

835
00:57:48.179 --> 00:57:50.760
But I just have to praise Billy Pipe.

836
00:57:50.820 --> 00:58:00.239
But without her being the backbone of these 2 series, with her supporting cast members, the show would just not have survived, would not have been a success.

837
00:58:00.300 --> 00:58:01.019
That's my opinion.

838
00:58:01.079 --> 00:58:03.360
Yeah She's the new series Barbara.

839
00:58:03.420 --> 00:58:05.579
No, in fact, Camille, also new series, Barbara.

840
00:58:05.639 --> 00:58:12.539
She is an incredible actor, and remember, at the time, it was that sort of usual fan thing.

841
00:58:12.599 --> 00:58:22.860
We think it's a recent phenomenon, but fan anger about casting, this pop starlers in our very important serious science fiction program.

842
00:58:23.039 --> 00:58:26.880
But she ended up being extraordinary.

843
00:58:26.940 --> 00:58:33.059
And the big question that the show has now is how does it survive her departure.

844
00:58:33.119 --> 00:58:35.699
Because it starts with her.

845
00:58:35.820 --> 00:58:48.239
The show is about her and her family and she's about to go and that's going to blow up the entire show and it's just, I remember thinking at the time.

846
00:58:48.300 --> 00:58:49.800
What do we do?

847
00:58:49.860 --> 00:58:52.380
What can season 3 even be?

848
00:58:52.440 --> 00:58:56.519
You've got ESP again because my final question was about season three.

849
00:58:56.579 --> 00:59:00.719
What are we hoping to discover and the questions that need to be asked.

850
00:59:00.780 --> 00:59:02.880
So you've just answered that.

851
00:59:02.940 --> 00:59:04.139
You're right.

852
00:59:04.199 --> 00:59:07.079
Like the show doesn't recover until Russell leaves.

853
00:59:07.199 --> 00:59:12.300
From, from, from, from the fact he made her so integral to the pot.

854
00:59:12.360 --> 00:59:12.719
I agree.

855
00:59:12.780 --> 00:59:13.139
I agree.

856
00:59:13.199 --> 00:59:14.340
There's a loss.

857
00:59:14.400 --> 00:59:15.900
There's a loss that we all feel.

858
00:59:15.960 --> 00:59:16.920
Maybe we're meant to feel that.

859
00:59:16.980 --> 00:59:18.659
He really is that dark.

860
00:59:18.719 --> 00:59:23.880
So you're saying that that sort of hangs over the series until that's all wrapped up in series four?

861
00:59:23.940 --> 00:59:31.079
I can serve this series, definitely, with series 3 suffers because everybody's like, who is this Martha who cares?

862
00:59:31.139 --> 00:59:32.880
Series 4 is great.

863
00:59:32.940 --> 00:59:38.940
But until you bring her back and then write her out completely again with the spare doctor.

864
00:59:39.000 --> 00:59:40.679
We're getting ahead of ourselves.

865
00:59:40.800 --> 00:59:52.199
No, but just to go on that line, then you get the durning war of this doctor losing his shtick and everything falling apart when he's gnashing his teeth in waters of Mars.

866
00:59:52.260 --> 00:59:57.780
I don't care, you know, that if, well, it's a great audition for Hamlet, isn't it?

867
00:59:57.840 --> 00:59:58.860
I guess so.

868
01:00:00.119 --> 01:00:00.960
Which he was doing at the time.

869
01:00:00.960 --> 01:00:02.219
Which he was doing at the time.

870
01:00:02.280 --> 01:00:11.039
Yeah, there is that sense of, yes, there's there's the teen warrior, even though he's not a child, but he I definitely get the sense of Tina.

871
01:00:11.159 --> 01:00:17.699
Yeah, a Twinkie-Tink. having, having found love, lost it and really never coming to terms with that.

872
01:00:17.820 --> 01:00:29.340
And I'm quite serious on the Louise Jamison tone for next season, because I suspect I'll be getting someone who's lost what he loved and is going to not be taking it all too well and maybe taking it out on others.

873
01:00:29.820 --> 01:00:40.619
You know, for me, it's going to be the rehabilitation of Martha, her mother, the master, the 3 M's. the 3 things I'm looking at for next season, which I had problems with at the time.

874
01:00:40.800 --> 01:00:42.900
You'll love it, Todd.

875
01:00:42.960 --> 01:00:43.320
I know you.

876
01:00:43.440 --> 01:00:47.579
Nine out of 10. 9 out of 10 people, 9 out of 10.

877
01:01:14.820 --> 01:01:19.619
Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week, and for this series of Doctor Who.

878
01:01:19.739 --> 01:01:23.699
We'll be back for Christmas in July with a commentary podcast on the Runaway Bride.

879
01:01:23.880 --> 01:01:34.380
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us at FlightsRentirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and at FTE podcast on Twitter.

880
01:01:34.440 --> 01:01:49.679
You can also find our series 11 flashcast Jody Interterterra at Jody Interterra.com and at Jody Interterra on Twitter and our James Bond commentary podcast Bondfinger at bondfinger.com at bondfinger on Facebook and at bondfingercast on Twitter.

881
01:01:49.800 --> 01:01:56.820
Until next time, may you always remember to keep a firm hold on the damn lever, for God's sake.

882
01:01:56.880 --> 01:01:58.980
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

883
01:01:59.039 --> 01:01:59.760
Good night.

884
01:01:59.820 --> 01:02:00.539
See you soon.

885
01:02:00.599 --> 01:02:01.260
Good thing.

886
01:02:04.380 --> 01:02:09.659
That was Flight through Entirety, starring Todd Bilby, Nathan Bottomley, James Selwood, and Richard Stone.

887
01:02:09.719 --> 01:02:13.260
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings Performance by Jane Orberg.

888
01:02:13.320 --> 01:02:20.519
This episode, probably in a better place than when she started, was recorded on the 19th of May 2019 and released on the 16th of June.

889
01:02:23.579 --> 01:02:32.579
We'd like to thank all of the people who joined us this series, Liz Miles, Adam Richards, Stephen and Dan from New to Who, Max Gelbart, Simon Moore, and Peter Griffiths.

890
01:02:32.639 --> 01:02:35.760
We'll be back soon, but in the meantime, keep watching the teeth.

891
01:02:36.719 --> 01:02:39.719
I had 3 more Snog Barrier Boys.

892
01:02:39.780 --> 01:02:42.900
We'll do it for the do it for the do it.

893
01:02:42.960 --> 01:02:43.800
No, no, tell us what they are.

894
01:02:43.860 --> 01:02:44.340
Tell us what they are.

895
01:02:44.400 --> 01:02:44.880
Okay.

896
01:02:44.940 --> 01:02:47.099
The 1st one was Strong Mary avoid.

897
01:02:47.159 --> 01:02:49.860
Toby Z, Zachary Cross Splain, Danny Barton.

898
01:02:49.920 --> 01:02:51.480
All three, all of them.

899
01:02:51.539 --> 01:02:52.019
Okay.

900
01:02:52.019 --> 01:02:52.920
At the same time.

901
01:02:52.980 --> 01:02:54.420
At the same time.

902
01:02:54.480 --> 01:02:56.039
Nog, then marry, then avoid them.

903
01:02:56.099 --> 01:02:56.460
Okay.

904
01:02:56.699 --> 01:03:00.119
That's very clever because you may have the same answer to this.

905
01:03:00.179 --> 01:03:01.320
Stock Mary avoid.

906
01:03:01.380 --> 01:03:03.300
King Louis, Captain Reynolds, Mr. Wagner.

907
01:03:03.360 --> 01:03:05.820
Oh, wait, wait, who's Mr. Wagner?

908
01:03:05.880 --> 01:03:08.760
The teacher from the other teacher.

909
01:03:08.760 --> 01:03:10.619
Oh, the hot teacher from...

910
01:03:10.679 --> 01:03:11.099
Yeah, yeah.

911
01:03:11.159 --> 01:03:12.000
Yeah, he is hot.

912
01:03:12.059 --> 01:03:14.099
And my five, all of them at the one time.

913
01:03:14.159 --> 01:03:16.440
Yes, and then you snog and then you avoid them.

914
01:03:16.500 --> 01:03:17.099
Thank you, James.

915
01:03:17.159 --> 01:03:18.059
And then the other one.

916
01:03:18.059 --> 01:03:18.900
Just pass them on.

917
01:03:18.960 --> 01:03:19.800
No, I meant all six.

918
01:03:20.760 --> 01:03:26.340
Which he might want to make it 9 because here's my other one we didn't get 2 Snog Mary avoid.

919
01:03:26.400 --> 01:03:27.599
Mickey, Ricky, Jake.

920
01:03:27.659 --> 01:03:30.119
Oh, oh, avoid Jake.

921
01:03:31.380 --> 01:03:38.940
He's got some very good facial cleansing work done since he's actually looking quite pretty now.

922
01:03:39.000 --> 01:03:40.079
I hate the hair.

923
01:03:40.139 --> 01:03:43.440
I hate it so much He was really struggling with his acne at the time.

924
01:03:43.500 --> 01:03:46.679
No, but I'm talking about his kids' TV presenter here.

925
01:03:47.880 --> 01:03:49.800
H from Steps.

926
01:03:51.659 --> 01:03:52.079
Here goes.