WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 12:54:25

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast that speaks an infinite deal of

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nothing, more than any man in Venice.

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Well, maybe not the only one.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Pete.

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Conrad.

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Well, we've reached that point of the series where we pop back in

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time to help a famous historical figure, fight some monsters so

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withered and so wild in their attire that look not like the

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inhabitants of the earth and yet are on it.

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Magic wands at the ready.

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It's the Shakespeare code.

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First script by Gareth Roberts, who had been writing Doctor Who

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Stories since 1993 for the new adventures novels, but not his

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first contribution for the new series.

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He did write the TARD episodes last year, a book called I Am a

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Dalek, Attack of the Grasp, which still isn't on DVD and Blu-ray

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for some reason I can't readily understand.

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And of course, the novel Only Human was his new series output up

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till this point before Russell asked him to write about

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Shakespeare.

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So how'd he go?

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Hey, went okay.

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What do you guys think?

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Doctor Who in a hurry?

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Okay.

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Goodbye.

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So this is where we can really pay homage to Terence Dudley for

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all his amazing work in reformatting, Doctor Who, because he's

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invented the celebrity historical sort of.

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I mean, okay, we've had them since Marco Polo sort of also, but

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this is, I think, that I think is the 1st time we got a an alien

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menace in the form of the master, spoilers, up against a

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historical famous person.

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It really gets ramped up here, doesn't it?

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This is a theme park historical full on.

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I think they're trying to go sort of one better on Mark Gatis's

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The Unquired Dead. you know, where do you go from Dickens, I guess

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I guess Shakespeare.

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Yeah, and it's someone who is obviously on the national school

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curriculum.

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There's a real, um, have you guys got the horrible history series

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out over there on TV?

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It was books first.

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Yes indeed.

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That's hugely popular over here and it appeals to parents and kids

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and it is, you know, exciting romps through the, oh, I said

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romps.

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Well, the 1st person in this episode say wrong.

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Because this ain't the map.

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Saint Bartholomew's Eve, is it?

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No, Nathan likes this.

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And yeah.

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Horrible histories.

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They really go full out.

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It's historical figures as kids entertainment, and it focusses on

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that thing of, hey, people in the past were actually kind of

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similar to people you'd meet today, which is like an opposite take

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that you what you'll sometimes get.

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There's that opening sequence where we're seeing, we're shown how

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surprisingly similar it is to modern concerns and things like that

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which is a, it sets out the store straight away, I think, for the

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kind of 42 minute ride that we're in for.

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So immediately he's like a rock star, isn't he?

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Like it's made very clear to us that this is popular entertainment

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for the time.

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And so we get an entire kind of giant computer duplicated crown in

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the Globe Theatre, all of whom have really terrible teeth.

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That's just...

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Dolly.

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I have to say Dolly's doing all right, though.

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She keeps herself nice.

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Yeah, no, there's some great sort of Elizabethan era veneers going

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there, right?

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I think Pete's right.

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It's a theme park.

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It does feel like theme park, Shakespeare, and sometimes it's as

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though it's it often sort of fakes things where it doesn't need to

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fake it.

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For instance, when they 1st land and they have a lovely sequence

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which, as you say, goes through the, oh, this is recycling.

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This is a water cooler moment.

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And that street is actually a real street in Warwick, which you

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think, well, a fantastic location.

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But they've dressed it so much.

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It sort of looks like a set.

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It's kind of odd.

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It doesn't look like a location in the way that Talons of Wang

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Triang looks like the streets really look like London sort of

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cobble streets.

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In a way, I mean, I sort of joke that it's docto in a hurry, but

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it is going at such incredible speed.

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The production itself.

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You know, the fact they had to get into the globe overnight, you

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know, and had an hour to set up after a production.

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This is Dr. getting at really breakneck speed.

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And sometimes it's interesting. kind of they do sort of theme park

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things where actually there is a real, um, they could rely on the

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real setting around them.

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I don't know, that's just something they just kept cropping up as

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I was watching it.

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Yes, it's almost like, um, they want to make sure that whether you

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tune in with the continuity announcer or if you tune in 30 minutes

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into the episode, no matter what the 1st shot of the episode is

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that you say, they want you to know this is around the year 1600

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you know, this is 1599.

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This is the 16, 17th century.

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Yeah, they want you to know as soon as you see it, there can't be

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any doubt.

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And yeah, I agree with you there.

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And especially sort of the whole thing is very sort of gold

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tinted.

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The lighting and the cinematography, and that's something that's

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true of a lot of RTD era, Doctor Who, a lot of stories have a

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particular colour and everything is tinted that colour. just

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because you had you had 2 directors of photography, I believe, in

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this era, who both were really fond of the use of colour as a

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shorthand to say, this is where you are right now.

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And indeed, one, I believe, Ernie Vince, if the TARDIS is sort of

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green on the interior, it's only Vincent.

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If it's gold, it's the other director of photography.

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And Russell and the rest of the crew were fine with that.

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It's like, yeah, well, you know, the TARTAs changed between

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stories and panels got moved around in the classic series.

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Okay, that's because it wasn't a standing set, but we can still do

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this.

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How many years did it take us to a group?

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Which one was the door handle?

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It was about 16 years, wasn't it?

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Oh, that sounds about that.

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Like, it really doesn't become the big red knob until Davidson, I

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think.

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Sorry, that's no way to talk about Peter Davidson.

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So he wants to give it the experience of Shakespeare, not

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necessarily.

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The real thing, he wants to give the experience, and arguably, they

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could have been there for 45 minutes.

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They obviously weren't intending to go into this whole adventure

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but feasibly, it would have been a 45 minute whistle stop tour.

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Just have a look, just to get a flavour and a taste of it.

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And that's sort of what this episode feels like.

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It doesn't feel anything like, you know, the reality of witches so

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that you get witch finders later.

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It feels very much like a tourist whistle stop tour.

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And Martha's fascinating character because she's our 1st new whose

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1st replacement companion, isn't she?

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She's the 1st time that we've got someone in the TARDIS now who

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knows less about it than all the viewers do.

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Whereas Rose was coming on with the new viewers and in meeting

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this world now, when we're seeing a scene in the TARDIS between

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the doctor and Rose, searching the doctor and Martha, oh, I'm

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doing it now.

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She's the, she's the rebound one and it's like, was that a good

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idea?

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Having Martha as his rebound person at this, because at the time

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I'm really, I'm really liking Martha at this and I hadn't warmed

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the 10th doctor at all at first.

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I found that the thing with him and Rose was like, oh, we're

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watching a series about an amazing man and the feelings that an

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attractive woman gives him.

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I've never seen that on TV.

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Why not?

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This from the start.

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Verity Lambert really missed a trick.

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And it didn't it didn't endear me to him.

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And I only really started liking Tenet when he was paired up with

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Donna.

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She was the Tegan he needed all along.

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And so going back, I like him more watching this episode now than

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I did at the time because he is, if I can steal Conrad's words

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show boating, and there's another word after that, that's the 4

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letter word.

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Sometimes.

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You can only come once.

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I'm taking you home, but yeah, look how awesome I am and all the

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awesome stuff I can do.

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Which doesn't endear me to him.

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Yeah, I'll warn to him later.

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But, yeah, I think Martha's Arc is an interesting one and it's

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going to be interesting to see to listen through to you guys doing

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this series and how she's dealt with and everything.

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Yeah, I wasn't on last week's episode for Smith and Jones.

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So I just, I just want to say I loved Martha from the beginning.

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I thought she was...

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Now, at the time, in 2006, I didn't pick up on the sort of

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selfishness of Rose's character, which was deliberately there

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deliberately put in by Billy Piper, until I saw Billy Piper say

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that letter and went back and watched it, yeah, actually.

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And something I love about Martha in contrast is that 1st scene

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where she's walking along the street and she keeps stopping the

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doctor and saying, but what about changing history?

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What if I kill my grandad?

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You know, what about I'm black?

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Is that going to be a problem?

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And, yeah, we come back to that years later with thin ice when

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Bill has the same question and realises, actually, no, there's

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black people in London, just like there is in the current day.

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It's not really said in this episode, but it's the whole thing of

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yeah, well, you know, historical films, everyone assumes history

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was white.

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There were black people in the past, but they didn't have equity

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cards, so they can get cast.

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They all had to be John Bennett.

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Or Burt Quock.

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So this episode drove me to go and do some further reading because

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I do, um, history is what and Tudor history is one of my, um, one

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of my hobbies.

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I'm not qualified or anything, but I read a lot.

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And I got a great book on my audible subscription called Black

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Tudors, The Untold Story, where the academic who's written it has

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gone through the evidence that's now available that wasn't really

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easy to get hold of until just a few years ago of like parish

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records and baptisms and weddings and things.

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And I was identified a couple of 100 people, who definitely were

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black migrants to Britain, and it's their baptisms, that are the

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things that are now quite easier to track them by, because that

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was how you pretty much became a citizen.

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You couldn't get married or do anything in the 30 until you got

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baptised.

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There was no, it wasn't not so much of the multicultural, but it

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was arriving and being accepted into part of a parish as a member

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of it.

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And she goes off and she writes, you know, I mean, there's people

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doing all sorts of stuff.

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And that they were slotted in to every tier of the class system, uh

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depending on their background because at that point, modern racism

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just hadn't, as we conceptualise it.

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It just hadn't hadn't grown yet.

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The slave trade is going off within the Spanish Empire, but

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England hasn't got an empire yet, so it doesn't even, it doesn't

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have the economic motive to really get stuck into that until the

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horrors that came in the following century.

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But at this point, um, there's probably a couple of 100 black

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people in London out of a population of a couple of 100,000.

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So yeah, people aren't going to be pointing, stopping and pointing

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anyone who's got a different colour. face.

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They would glimpse the people like that occasionally.

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However, wearing a sleeveless top, probably...

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And Shakespeare does comment on her clothes.

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Like, you know, so it was so fine and fitted.

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Can I just say I'm actually slightly irritated by the way the

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doctor dismisses Martha's concerns about racism?

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And it is just that he goes, oh, just sort of wander through and

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pretend you own the place, and it's always worked for me, and it's

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00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:14.519
kind of like, oh, you know, and it feels like he's just

248
00:12:14.519 --> 00:12:16.919
encouraging her as a junior doctor to be, this is how you be a

249
00:12:16.919 --> 00:12:19.440
doctor, be just like me, which is that slight arrogance that you

250
00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:20.100
kind of get.

251
00:12:20.100 --> 00:12:21.360
Oh, end of that.

252
00:12:21.419 --> 00:12:24.360
But it makes him, it's a very glib way of addressing the issue of

253
00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:25.019
slavery.

254
00:12:25.080 --> 00:12:25.320
Yeah.

255
00:12:25.379 --> 00:12:26.399
Just do what I do.

256
00:12:26.460 --> 00:12:27.659
Dude, you're white.

257
00:12:27.720 --> 00:12:29.879
Yeah, yeah, yeah. exactly it.

258
00:12:30.600 --> 00:12:33.659
Nobody puts it him and says, what the hell have you got in your

259
00:12:33.659 --> 00:12:33.840
hair?

260
00:12:35.399 --> 00:12:40.500
But, you know, we also had that, obviously, without the concern

261
00:12:40.500 --> 00:12:44.580
for racism, but we also had that in Silver Nemesis when Ace sees

262
00:12:44.580 --> 00:12:47.039
the queen and the doctor says, just act like we own the place.

263
00:12:47.100 --> 00:12:48.360
I love that so much.

264
00:12:48.419 --> 00:12:50.340
That's a brilliant scene.

265
00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:53.879
So that's, of course, Chinese accent got better every episode.

266
00:12:55.620 --> 00:12:58.919
This has been bugging me, baby, one of you can remind me.

267
00:12:58.980 --> 00:13:00.840
This is with silver nemesis.

268
00:13:00.899 --> 00:13:04.320
That is the story which also got an arrow in the TARDIS door and I

269
00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:06.600
was just like, I remember it going in, but did he pull it out when

270
00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:07.500
he got out of the door?

271
00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:08.159
been bugging me.

272
00:13:08.220 --> 00:13:08.700
Can anyone remember?

273
00:13:08.820 --> 00:13:10.440
Well, the 7th doctor does.

274
00:13:10.500 --> 00:13:13.139
Because, yeah, he pulls it out when he lands.

275
00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:16.799
And I think next week in gridlock, they pull it out of the door as

276
00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:17.039
well.

277
00:13:17.100 --> 00:13:19.679
Had to watch that bit just to make sure he pulled it out.

278
00:13:19.740 --> 00:13:21.360
These are little things that keep me awake for that.

279
00:13:21.419 --> 00:13:23.039
You're quite right.

280
00:13:23.100 --> 00:13:23.820
You're quite right.

281
00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:29.399
Maybe coronavores feast on them in the time corte.

282
00:13:30.659 --> 00:13:33.059
Vortasors, surely.

283
00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:35.700
Oh, that's the, that's what, yeah, yeah, that's what it meant.

284
00:13:44.759 --> 00:13:48.000
What do we think about Shakespeare himself then?

285
00:13:48.059 --> 00:13:50.759
It's very against type, isn't it?

286
00:13:50.820 --> 00:13:53.700
I guess, you know, sadly, Beryl Reed wasn't available, so they've

287
00:13:53.700 --> 00:13:54.840
gone for someone else.

288
00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:57.600
Who's going to do it a bit different, not quite so down with the

289
00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:01.379
kids as Beryl, but because he was a big deal at the time.

290
00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:05.100
He was in Shameless on Channel 4, which was at that point at the

291
00:14:05.100 --> 00:14:10.259
height of its cool countercultural thing where it came a bit of a

292
00:14:10.259 --> 00:14:11.279
parody of itself later on.

293
00:14:11.340 --> 00:14:15.419
Um, So I, I, I was like, oh, good, he's going to be in Doctor

294
00:14:15.419 --> 00:14:15.779
Who.

295
00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:18.240
But yeah, it's not really very Shakespeare.

296
00:14:18.299 --> 00:14:20.820
I mean, they lampshaded, don't they?

297
00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:23.759
Martha says that he doesn't look anything like his portraits and

298
00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:26.700
then there's a line later about him scratching his head and him

299
00:14:26.700 --> 00:14:30.059
being warned that if he keeps doing it, he'll go bald and then the

300
00:14:30.059 --> 00:14:33.600
doctor gives him the rough so that he ends up eventually, you know

301
00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:36.240
we imagine that he turns into the Shakespeare that we're familiar

302
00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:39.600
from, you know, from our collected works volumes.

303
00:14:40.019 --> 00:14:45.960
But here, it is that desire to make the past exactly the same as

304
00:14:45.960 --> 00:14:47.759
the present and make him a rock star.

305
00:14:47.820 --> 00:14:53.519
So he has to be a big, you know, buffy, attractive guy who steps

306
00:14:53.519 --> 00:14:55.679
onto the stage and says, shut your big fat mouths.

307
00:14:56.580 --> 00:14:59.700
If anything, I'd like him a bit earthier, to be honest.

308
00:14:59.759 --> 00:15:01.860
I think this feels like another one of those instances where I

309
00:15:01.860 --> 00:15:05.399
thought, and so they've chosen Dean Lennox Kelly, who, as you said

310
00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:08.940
played, it was already had that character under his belt, has been

311
00:15:08.940 --> 00:15:12.059
as rough and ready, guy, but I sort of think, I mean, I hadn't

312
00:15:12.059 --> 00:15:12.779
actually seen Shameless.

313
00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:14.100
So to me, I was like, oh, I know him.

314
00:15:14.159 --> 00:15:17.039
He's from Shameless, so he comes with that, but he's not in

315
00:15:17.039 --> 00:15:21.360
himself, an actually particularly rock and roll type of guy.

316
00:15:21.419 --> 00:15:24.179
I'd prefer them to go even further and have someone who's, you

317
00:15:24.179 --> 00:15:26.879
know, an East End sort of EastEnders or a Danny Dyer or someone

318
00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:30.179
who's actually rough and gruff and you can imagine having Barbara

319
00:15:30.179 --> 00:15:30.480
Rawls.

320
00:15:30.600 --> 00:15:34.139
This guy is, it's sort of rough, rough, but he's kind of got

321
00:15:34.139 --> 00:15:37.379
pretty hair and he's, he's a little sweetened over and I would

322
00:15:37.379 --> 00:15:39.539
have actually liked him even rougher, but maybe that's just me.

323
00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:44.399
Actually, I'm now imagining Danny Dyer playing the role and I

324
00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:46.500
think that would have been hilarious.

325
00:15:47.340 --> 00:15:49.259
You know what, wouldn't it?

326
00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:53.159
like someone really kind of shockingly outrageously, you know, Noel

327
00:15:53.159 --> 00:15:56.220
Gallagery, somebody really who's like, what is that person doing

328
00:15:56.220 --> 00:15:56.639
on that stage?

329
00:15:56.700 --> 00:16:02.460
Yeah, the one thing I, now, I am a devotee and follower of Mr. Dyer

330
00:16:02.460 --> 00:16:08.820
over the years, but various, but his, yeah, the thought of him

331
00:16:08.820 --> 00:16:11.759
attempting an even vaguely northern accent horrifies me.

332
00:16:12.419 --> 00:16:16.019
They overshoot with Lennox Kelly and land him in Manchester, but

333
00:16:16.019 --> 00:16:17.460
at least it's an attack.

334
00:16:17.580 --> 00:16:21.960
I was too far north, but it is a good.

335
00:16:22.019 --> 00:16:25.860
I think is this thing, which I just will keep going back to it.

336
00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:28.919
I just think the speed of the production just means they go for

337
00:16:28.919 --> 00:16:31.919
things which would signify something, but they don't necessarily

338
00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:34.440
need to go for the real thing.

339
00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:38.220
Yeah, there's nothing is done subtly here, is it?

340
00:16:38.279 --> 00:16:40.559
No, it's just like, oh, this is what it was like.

341
00:16:40.620 --> 00:16:41.580
Actually, who's a bit rock and roll?

342
00:16:41.700 --> 00:16:42.480
Well hey, let's move on.

343
00:16:42.539 --> 00:16:44.340
It doesn't you know, and that's fine.

344
00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:47.100
That gives us nice closer to the truth because he would have been

345
00:16:47.100 --> 00:16:47.820
a bar brawling.

346
00:16:47.820 --> 00:16:50.639
Theatrical drunkard lout sometimes.

347
00:16:50.940 --> 00:16:54.419
But again, it's just a little, is that, is that middle ground?

348
00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:57.000
It gives you a tourist, sort of Doctor Who, and certainly Gareth

349
00:16:57.000 --> 00:16:58.799
Roberts on his best behaviour, it slightly feels like.

350
00:16:59.100 --> 00:17:03.899
Yeah, and well, you can kind of understand that being the 1st

351
00:17:03.899 --> 00:17:08.220
chance he's got to write for the show proper, as it were.

352
00:17:08.220 --> 00:17:09.539
Definitely.

353
00:17:09.539 --> 00:17:14.220
Because this is, is this in between the Sarah Jane pilot and the

354
00:17:14.220 --> 00:17:15.059
start of the 1st series?

355
00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:15.720
Yeah, yeah.

356
00:17:15.779 --> 00:17:17.279
So, yeah.

357
00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:17.940
Yeah.

358
00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:22.559
So that tone, that's got its own tone of, of, you know, fun

359
00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:26.099
adventures with a hint of menace, but again, but not, um, never

360
00:17:26.099 --> 00:17:27.059
bleak or dark.

361
00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:30.779
And you can see this is coming from that same palette, isn't it?

362
00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:31.079
Yeah.

363
00:17:31.140 --> 00:17:32.220
Yeah, definitely.

364
00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:36.480
And the other thing with Shakespeare sort of being, you know, young

365
00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:42.660
and vivacious and very clearly he enjoys the company of the ladies

366
00:17:42.660 --> 00:17:46.079
and the gentlemen, 52nd and academics just punch the air.

367
00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:52.259
Well, all the portraits we have of Shakespeare do tend to come

368
00:17:52.259 --> 00:17:55.259
from the last few years of his life.

369
00:17:55.319 --> 00:18:01.799
Like, the Chandos portrait is 1610, and, you know, he's got very

370
00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:03.180
much a receding hairline.

371
00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:09.180
So I think they've they've cleverly chosen this 1599 time setting

372
00:18:09.180 --> 00:18:13.019
to kind of go, a lot of what is known of Shakespeare is known

373
00:18:13.019 --> 00:18:14.460
towards the end of his life.

374
00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:17.279
Therefore, if we said it a bit earlier, we're not contradicting

375
00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:17.579
much.

376
00:18:17.579 --> 00:18:21.480
They've also made an effort not to contradict what we know of

377
00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:24.599
Shakespeare from the classic series where the doctor refers to

378
00:18:24.599 --> 00:18:26.099
having met him a few times.

379
00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:29.400
Presumably that comes after this for Shakespeare.

380
00:18:29.460 --> 00:18:32.519
And saw him on TV in the 1st episode of the Chase.

381
00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:34.140
In the 1st episode of the Chase, yeah.

382
00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:37.559
Time of the Daleks, he spends time with him as a boy, but you

383
00:18:37.559 --> 00:18:40.500
could hand wave that and go, oh, yeah, well, you know, he was 10.

384
00:18:40.740 --> 00:18:42.480
He forgot about that sort of thing.

385
00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:47.640
Plus, that was a sort of weird Dalek time travel thing involving

386
00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:48.299
mirrors.

387
00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:49.799
So, you know, a wizard did it.

388
00:18:49.859 --> 00:18:55.380
Yeah, I really enjoy Dean Lennox Kelly's performance here.

389
00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:58.019
But yeah, now I'm imagining Danny Dyer, and I think I would have

390
00:18:58.019 --> 00:18:59.039
enjoyed that even more.

391
00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:01.980
I'm not saying they should have gone with something rougher, but

392
00:19:01.980 --> 00:19:03.900
it's just interesting to note how this is treading the middle

393
00:19:03.900 --> 00:19:05.579
ground. not going for full realism.

394
00:19:05.640 --> 00:19:07.859
It's not going for the most cheesy version of it.

395
00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:10.259
It's going for somewhere somewhere very broad in the middle and

396
00:19:10.259 --> 00:19:12.539
which is right, I think, for doctor at the time.

397
00:19:12.660 --> 00:19:13.440
And this came out.

398
00:19:13.500 --> 00:19:17.700
This came out of the same month that the Tudors started with

399
00:19:17.700 --> 00:19:20.460
what's his name, Reese Myers, as a very unconventional looking

400
00:19:20.460 --> 00:19:21.480
Henry VIII.

401
00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:26.640
And so that was obviously in the zeitgeist at the time, like that

402
00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:27.779
hey, let's do history.

403
00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:28.920
Like it's sexy and modern.

404
00:19:28.980 --> 00:19:29.819
Casanova.

405
00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:32.220
Of course, yeah, Casanova, whatever happened to him?

406
00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:36.960
That guy who's doing a mockney accent in Casanova.

407
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:40.019
David Davison or something?

408
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:44.339
We actually talked about Casanova when we were doing Girl in the

409
00:19:44.339 --> 00:19:49.079
Fireplace because one of our panel was sort of unhappy that the

410
00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:52.559
past was a little bit too rock and roll and a little bit, you know

411
00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:56.220
was not quite gritty enough, and it's clear that this version of

412
00:19:56.220 --> 00:19:59.160
Doctor Who isn't really interested in sort of faithfully

413
00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:00.480
recreating the past at all.

414
00:20:01.740 --> 00:20:05.279
It's very appropriate for Shakespeare, because he used to

415
00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:08.640
frequently pap his, his, uh, plays.

416
00:20:09.180 --> 00:20:10.980
They were big mass crowd entertainment.

417
00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:13.740
And I saw that sign for the elephant pub and I thought, I know

418
00:20:13.740 --> 00:20:17.400
something about it, but he referenced it in 12th night.

419
00:20:17.460 --> 00:20:20.460
He would, even though the 12th night set somewhere, Ilyria

420
00:20:20.460 --> 00:20:21.359
somewhere completely made up.

421
00:20:21.420 --> 00:20:22.980
There's a quote from it.

422
00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:26.819
He says in the south suburbs at the elephant is best to lodge, you

423
00:20:26.819 --> 00:20:29.579
know, shout out to the local pub and everyone would laugh, the

424
00:20:29.579 --> 00:20:30.720
locals would get the joke and laugh.

425
00:20:30.779 --> 00:20:33.539
So I think it's completely consistent with Shakespeare as well as

426
00:20:33.539 --> 00:20:37.259
with Doctor Who, just to put to pull those the sublime and the

427
00:20:37.259 --> 00:20:38.640
ridiculous and jam them together, you know.

428
00:20:38.700 --> 00:20:43.440
Oh yeah, no, I mean, he has clock striking in Julius Caesar and

429
00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:44.940
people wearing doublets and things.

430
00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:47.640
Like, I mean, he really doesn't, you know, he himself doesn't care

431
00:20:47.640 --> 00:20:50.460
about historical accuracy, sort of in any way at all.

432
00:20:50.519 --> 00:20:54.660
No, just everything's happening in Italy because that's terribly

433
00:20:54.660 --> 00:20:55.619
fashionable at the moment.

434
00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:58.559
And we've got the props.

435
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:05.640
When I was a teacher and I had to teach Shakespeare.

436
00:21:05.700 --> 00:21:11.220
The way I always got the kids in was by pointing out, yep, this is

437
00:21:11.220 --> 00:21:13.559
a knob joke and they're like, what do you mean?

438
00:21:13.619 --> 00:21:15.480
Shakespeare doesn't Shakespeare's posh.

439
00:21:15.539 --> 00:21:16.740
Shakespeare doesn't do knob jokes.

440
00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:18.059
I'm like, Shakespeare does no jokes.

441
00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:19.920
What else do you think this is about?

442
00:21:19.980 --> 00:21:21.960
Screw your courage to the sticking place.

443
00:21:22.019 --> 00:21:23.160
What do you think she's talking about?

444
00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:25.980
She's saying he's not a man?

445
00:21:26.099 --> 00:21:28.200
He hasn't got he hasn't got a knob.

446
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:32.940
See, if you're on stage in Shakespeare, you know, it's obligatory

447
00:21:32.940 --> 00:21:36.299
to just make sure they really understand that joke with a pelvics

448
00:21:36.299 --> 00:21:37.440
thrust.

449
00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:44.160
I read about Diana Rigg playing Lady Macbeth once.

450
00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:47.579
And when she did the screw your courage.

451
00:21:47.579 --> 00:21:52.920
Line, she stopped at screw your courage, looked down at Macbeth's

452
00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:57.779
dick to the sticking place and then turned back out to the

453
00:21:57.779 --> 00:22:02.099
audience. mock curtain down marvellous.

454
00:22:02.940 --> 00:22:06.599
I'm going to the pub to breathe garlic on George Blaze and be

455
00:22:06.599 --> 00:22:07.200
who's coming?

456
00:22:08.579 --> 00:22:12.599
And finally, here we get we get the doctor in bed with a lady.

457
00:22:13.380 --> 00:22:16.859
It's actually really painful to watch that scene, I think.

458
00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:19.200
And he is really super horrible.

459
00:22:19.259 --> 00:22:21.660
Like, really extraordinarily horrible to her.

460
00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:25.799
And I think probably next week that will pay off a bit and things

461
00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:26.700
will calm down.

462
00:22:26.759 --> 00:22:30.539
But there's that moment where he actually just says to her, Rose

463
00:22:30.539 --> 00:22:33.660
would have known the right thing to say at this point. you know

464
00:22:33.660 --> 00:22:36.420
just openly dismissing her.

465
00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:40.259
And it's it's really, you know, it's pretty unpleasant.

466
00:22:40.319 --> 00:22:41.460
Yeah.

467
00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:47.400
Now, the thing is, I'm I'm quite famously, um, not ignorant.

468
00:22:47.460 --> 00:22:48.000
What the word?

469
00:22:48.299 --> 00:22:53.400
sort of blissfully unaware if anyone finds me attractive, you know

470
00:22:53.400 --> 00:22:57.900
like my partner and I will go out to a bar and will leave and Rod

471
00:22:57.900 --> 00:23:00.180
will say, oh, you know, that guy in the blue shirt was checking

472
00:23:00.180 --> 00:23:00.599
you out.

473
00:23:00.599 --> 00:23:02.700
And I was, oh, was he?

474
00:23:02.759 --> 00:23:05.880
Oh, I thought he was just squinting, you know.

475
00:23:05.940 --> 00:23:10.619
So I watched this, I watched this scene and it's like, even I

476
00:23:10.619 --> 00:23:14.759
could not be this blissfully unaware that that Martha was

477
00:23:14.759 --> 00:23:17.819
attracted to me. you know it's obvious.

478
00:23:18.059 --> 00:23:20.460
It's very hard to read.

479
00:23:20.460 --> 00:23:24.180
What we supposed to be thinking is going on in this man, our

480
00:23:24.180 --> 00:23:25.500
hero's mind?

481
00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:28.500
And I showed this to my partner last night and he said, who is

482
00:23:28.500 --> 00:23:29.640
this scene for?

483
00:23:29.700 --> 00:23:31.740
Who's enjoying this scene?

484
00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:33.119
Where are we supposed to be?

485
00:23:33.180 --> 00:23:36.119
And he sort of said, he just went, oh, teenage girls who've got a

486
00:23:36.119 --> 00:23:37.680
crush on David Tennant?

487
00:23:37.740 --> 00:23:40.980
And I was like, well, perhaps the way the audience went at the

488
00:23:40.980 --> 00:23:41.160
time?

489
00:23:41.220 --> 00:23:43.680
Perhaps it is for people to go through that.

490
00:23:43.740 --> 00:23:49.019
But I, I, it's really difficult to position, anybody in this scene

491
00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:50.279
where is the doctor?

492
00:23:50.279 --> 00:23:54.420
and I've to, I mean, there's, it's kind of, for someone being

493
00:23:54.420 --> 00:23:55.319
blissfully unaware.

494
00:23:55.380 --> 00:23:58.740
I sort of remembered, you know, unrequited love was on the 7th

495
00:23:58.740 --> 00:24:01.380
doctor's list of the 5 things he hated the most.

496
00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:02.099
Yes.

497
00:24:02.099 --> 00:24:04.259
And I was like, have you, obviously the doctor can change hugely

498
00:24:04.259 --> 00:24:07.859
between regenerations, but have you really forgotten the very

499
00:24:07.859 --> 00:24:10.740
thing you hate the most along with bus stations and tyranny?

500
00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:13.079
Where's the doctor in this scene?

501
00:24:13.079 --> 00:24:15.660
And where are we?

502
00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:20.099
It's one of the most disorientating scenes in Doctor Who for me.

503
00:24:20.460 --> 00:24:26.640
And she's known him about 3 hours, um, like, uh, well, because

504
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:29.039
they had the previous story together and then they split up and

505
00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:30.839
then he just pops up and she jumps in the TARDIS with him.

506
00:24:30.900 --> 00:24:33.779
So it also makes her seem a bit.

507
00:24:33.900 --> 00:24:36.059
I mean, to be that swooney over someone.

508
00:24:36.299 --> 00:24:40.440
I think we spoke about that last week, that there's there is

509
00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:43.799
something, I think, sort of unpleasant and ill judged to have her

510
00:24:43.799 --> 00:24:48.720
kind of react the way she does to the sort of biotransfer kiss

511
00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:51.720
thing in Smith and Jones.

512
00:24:51.779 --> 00:24:55.440
And I guess it's kind of shorthand, and this is Doctor Who, and

513
00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:59.339
there's too many sort of rhinos running about the place to kind of

514
00:24:59.339 --> 00:25:02.819
go into their developing relationship or something.

515
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:06.660
But I do think that it is all a bit sudden.

516
00:25:06.779 --> 00:25:10.859
And you kind of wonder exactly why Russell chose to go there.

517
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:16.079
Yeah, I guess it's setting it up in time for getting ahead of

518
00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:16.500
ourselves.

519
00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:20.519
Um, the, uh, the 2 parter with, that I've forgotten the name of

520
00:25:20.519 --> 00:25:21.119
the family of blood.

521
00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:26.940
By that point, he wants her to already be in love with the doctor

522
00:25:26.940 --> 00:25:29.579
which makes her not being able to really help him more tragic.

523
00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:32.819
So that's why at this point we're rushing so quickly into it.

524
00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:38.759
That's my sort of production room explanation as to why they leap

525
00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:40.019
at it like this so quickly.

526
00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:43.440
It feels very unfortunate, but luckily Martha gets to do some cool

527
00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:45.779
stuff later on in the episode and it feels like she's regaining

528
00:25:45.779 --> 00:25:49.619
some of something that she's, I think this attitude, this scene.

529
00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:52.799
It's a very big scene in the film in the episode or other.

530
00:25:52.859 --> 00:25:58.079
And it takes quite a while to regain dignity and independence from

531
00:25:58.079 --> 00:26:03.779
this bizarre moment of being in bed with this not hugely pleasant

532
00:26:03.779 --> 00:26:07.019
person, as a huge, as a big positive sign, and a big positive.

533
00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:09.119
In the 1st draft, he was supposed to strip down to his underwear

534
00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:13.680
and leap into bed, which was supposed to sort of pinpoint his

535
00:26:13.680 --> 00:26:15.299
obliviousness of it.

536
00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:16.200
And it's interesting.

537
00:26:16.259 --> 00:26:18.359
One doctor later, and that would have worked.

538
00:26:18.420 --> 00:26:21.059
If Matt Smith had gone right, Jim Jam's time, you know, and just

539
00:26:21.059 --> 00:26:23.160
taken his clothes and leapt into bed, it would have seemed comical

540
00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:24.779
and light, and he would have seen him oblivious.

541
00:26:24.839 --> 00:26:27.299
I mean, I think David Tennant quite rightly was against that

542
00:26:27.299 --> 00:26:32.460
because this doctor is, if he's aware of nothing else, it's how

543
00:26:32.460 --> 00:26:33.299
attractive he is.

544
00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:36.420
So again, it feels odd that he suddenly can't notice because he's

545
00:26:36.420 --> 00:26:38.880
always winking and saying how sexy he is.

546
00:26:38.940 --> 00:26:41.460
Yeah, and we've been through what he's, we've seen the emotions

547
00:26:41.460 --> 00:26:42.480
that he went through with Rose.

548
00:26:42.539 --> 00:26:44.279
This is not the 1st time he's met a human female.

549
00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:46.859
Yeah, it's weird.

550
00:26:46.920 --> 00:26:48.240
Odd one.

551
00:26:48.299 --> 00:26:49.019
Yeah.

552
00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:53.940
And like you say, I do like that Martha, and I don't think it's

553
00:26:53.940 --> 00:26:58.440
even a reaction to his rejection, but Martha takes a very

554
00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:01.019
proactive role in trying to solve the mystery.

555
00:27:01.079 --> 00:27:02.819
Absolutely Yeah.

556
00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:07.079
Yeah, I like that it's not her trying to get him to notice her.

557
00:27:07.140 --> 00:27:08.880
It's just she's contributing.

558
00:27:08.940 --> 00:27:10.440
Although it does have that effect.

559
00:27:10.500 --> 00:27:13.019
It does have that effect like, oh, Martha Jones, I like you.

560
00:27:13.079 --> 00:27:13.980
Yeah, yeah.

561
00:27:14.039 --> 00:27:16.319
Once they're in the globe and they're sort of theorising about

562
00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:20.640
what's going on, and she starts to do what she had done last week

563
00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:26.460
which is be clever and, you know, work out what the rules are, and

564
00:27:26.460 --> 00:27:27.660
then he starts to notice that.

565
00:27:27.779 --> 00:27:31.680
Yeah, she's enjoying having an adventure as well as crushing on

566
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:32.579
him so that, yeah.

567
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:36.599
Yeah, I mean, one of the moments I really like her in, even though

568
00:27:36.599 --> 00:27:40.680
it doesn't end too well for her, is when she does the naming of

569
00:27:40.680 --> 00:27:43.440
the Carrionite thing, and it doesn't work, and she turns around

570
00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:44.700
and says, what did I do wrong?

571
00:27:44.759 --> 00:27:45.599
Was it the finger?

572
00:27:47.220 --> 00:27:52.980
It's a very sort of scientific methodology from this from this

573
00:27:52.980 --> 00:27:56.819
junior doctor because when the doctor says I name the carrier and

574
00:27:56.819 --> 00:27:57.660
I, he's not pointing.

575
00:27:57.720 --> 00:28:01.140
So she does the point because, you know, that's a big dramatic

576
00:28:01.140 --> 00:28:01.440
thing.

577
00:28:01.500 --> 00:28:03.720
And so she kind of goes, okay, what did I do wrong?

578
00:28:03.779 --> 00:28:04.680
Was it the point?

579
00:28:04.980 --> 00:28:12.000
You know, it's just very subtle expressions of her intelligence

580
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:16.259
not just as an adjunct of the doctor, but having her own thought

581
00:28:16.259 --> 00:28:17.339
processes.

582
00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:21.240
I wonder if she's the 1st human companion who's got a degree.

583
00:28:21.299 --> 00:28:22.380
That's just suddenly struck me.

584
00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:24.599
She's obviously been to, she's obviously already got a degree and

585
00:28:24.599 --> 00:28:26.279
is now studying for a doctorate to become a doctor.

586
00:28:26.339 --> 00:28:30.059
Does that put her...

587
00:28:30.059 --> 00:28:32.220
She had lots of degree.

588
00:28:32.279 --> 00:28:34.799
But Liz isn't a companion.

589
00:28:34.859 --> 00:28:36.119
What?

590
00:28:37.500 --> 00:28:40.440
The doctor is her doctor.

591
00:28:40.500 --> 00:28:42.779
No, Liz is a companion.

592
00:28:42.839 --> 00:28:44.099
I have to say that all get letters.

593
00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:45.480
Okay, I'll reprase that.

594
00:28:45.539 --> 00:28:46.740
But it's uncommon.

595
00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:49.799
Particularly when we, yeah, particularly with a young, young

596
00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:52.319
companion for them to be someone who's actually gone to uni.

597
00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:54.299
Yeah, and a stark contrast for rose.

598
00:28:54.359 --> 00:28:54.839
Yes.

599
00:28:54.900 --> 00:28:56.579
Yeah, and she's middle. mean, she's middle class.

600
00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:02.279
That's the, this is, after the, having a, the 1st proper uh

601
00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:07.799
working class companion for a long time, um, Ace's, Ace's position

602
00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:11.160
in the British class system is a fascinating one to go into.

603
00:29:11.220 --> 00:29:16.680
We like to claim she's upper middle class. upper middle class

604
00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:17.279
rebel.

605
00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:22.440
I mean, going back to, you know, why did Russell go for this

606
00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:23.940
unrequited love angle?

607
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:27.779
I think that, you know, that might actually be tied up with Martha

608
00:29:27.779 --> 00:29:33.059
being from a more, and I say this, not ironically, upper middle

609
00:29:32.579 --> 00:29:36.000
class background, and, you know, she's a young professional.

610
00:29:36.059 --> 00:29:38.160
She's got a degree, she's training to become a doctor.

611
00:29:38.220 --> 00:29:40.859
Yeah, no, Clive's got a nice car and everything.

612
00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:42.240
Yeah, yeah. quite well off.

613
00:29:42.299 --> 00:29:43.319
They're quite well off.

614
00:29:43.380 --> 00:29:48.660
And I do wonder if it's kind of the Peter Davidson Colin Baker

615
00:29:48.660 --> 00:29:52.619
kind of transition in that Russell sat down and wrote down all the

616
00:29:52.619 --> 00:29:56.519
things Rose wasn't, and that's the character we're going to have.

617
00:29:56.579 --> 00:30:00.359
So instead of having a companion who is in love with the doctor

618
00:30:00.359 --> 00:30:02.700
and the doctor's in love with her, will have the companion in love

619
00:30:02.700 --> 00:30:04.380
with the doctor, but the doctor's not in love with her.

620
00:30:04.380 --> 00:30:06.660
Bam, that'll be a great idea.

621
00:30:06.720 --> 00:30:10.259
And then they seem to realise around the, around the point of

622
00:30:10.259 --> 00:30:11.460
human nature family of blood.

623
00:30:11.579 --> 00:30:13.740
We may have over-gged this slightly.

624
00:30:13.799 --> 00:30:16.440
They do start walking it back, I think.

625
00:30:16.500 --> 00:30:19.799
Because I was pitying at that point for being stuck in that

626
00:30:19.799 --> 00:30:23.640
situation and it's like, this has been done successfully, but was

627
00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:24.599
it a clever thing to do?

628
00:30:24.660 --> 00:30:25.200
Yeah.

629
00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:28.319
I mean, you're still having a companion in relation to her love

630
00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:31.559
she's defined by her love for the doctor, which is, again, I think

631
00:30:31.559 --> 00:30:33.900
a good way to have gone opposite rose is to have someone who, you

632
00:30:33.900 --> 00:30:37.259
know, like Donna, who has no interest at all in love with a doctor

633
00:30:37.259 --> 00:30:38.160
apart from as a mate.

634
00:30:38.220 --> 00:30:39.180
Yeah, yeah.

635
00:30:39.240 --> 00:30:39.960
Yeah, yeah.

636
00:30:40.019 --> 00:30:42.660
I think they're still enamoured with the idea that they have

637
00:30:42.660 --> 00:30:46.619
someone sexy like David Tennant in the role for the 1st time and

638
00:30:46.619 --> 00:30:48.900
they just don't want to waste it or something.

639
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:52.740
Yeah, and they've realised the British population are in love with

640
00:30:52.740 --> 00:30:55.380
David Tennant, so why on earth wouldn't Martha be?

641
00:30:55.680 --> 00:30:59.940
And even, you know, in a few weeks time, Tish is going to be quite

642
00:30:59.940 --> 00:31:01.019
taken with him as well.

643
00:31:01.079 --> 00:31:04.740
You know, she's going to pass a comment on how attractive he is.

644
00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:09.420
So it's almost Austin Powers-ish, you know, these women being

645
00:31:09.420 --> 00:31:10.500
attracted to the doctor.

646
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:14.640
Like, you know, he walks into a room, being a giant string beam

647
00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:19.799
with ridiculous hair, and a Dick Van Dyke cockney accent, and a

648
00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:22.440
nice suit, and I wondered where that was going.

649
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:26.519
And all the women just fall over.

650
00:31:26.579 --> 00:31:27.299
And you're right.

651
00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:29.460
I think when Catherine Tate arrives on the scene.

652
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:32.039
That why it's so refreshing that she's just like, okay, you get a

653
00:31:32.039 --> 00:31:32.640
paper cut.

654
00:31:32.700 --> 00:31:36.359
Oh, no, and they are, I mean, they're definitely kind of walking

655
00:31:36.359 --> 00:31:39.000
it back in partners in crime.

656
00:31:39.059 --> 00:31:42.720
They absolutely have that scene which is just the message to the

657
00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:45.420
audience that we're not doing that schmoopy love stuff anymore.

658
00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:46.380
Yeah.

659
00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:47.339
Yeah.

660
00:31:47.339 --> 00:31:49.140
I really cheer that.

661
00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:49.740
Yeah, yeah.

662
00:31:49.799 --> 00:31:54.000
I mean, the thing is, I suppose my defining attitude towards

663
00:31:54.000 --> 00:32:00.180
Martha is I adore her in spite of the romance, not because of it.

664
00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:03.660
Yeah, and her moments of brilliance are absolutely brilliant.

665
00:32:03.720 --> 00:32:06.900
I think that when she says, oh, there's 14 lines in a sonnet, that

666
00:32:06.900 --> 00:32:09.359
really pings out as one of the cleverest cues in the whole thing

667
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:12.599
to the point where I almost wish that was the big discovery.

668
00:32:12.660 --> 00:32:13.440
Yeah, yeah.

669
00:32:13.500 --> 00:32:17.579
Yeah, I just swapped the unrequited love bed scene for Marfa

670
00:32:17.579 --> 00:32:21.119
hitting the books and then going, 49's in a sonnet. bang, you know

671
00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:23.519
that would have been, that's my money's worth right there.

672
00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:27.900
I also really adore the way that she reacts to Shakespeare as well

673
00:32:27.900 --> 00:32:31.380
you know, and it starts with that sort of weird thing where it

674
00:32:31.380 --> 00:32:34.980
could go either way because he's being kind of, you know, a bit

675
00:32:34.980 --> 00:32:36.059
racist or whatever.

676
00:32:36.119 --> 00:32:41.279
But the way that she reacts to it with just the kind of rye

677
00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:41.880
amusement.

678
00:32:41.940 --> 00:32:45.839
And she's sort of, you know, she's sort of flattered and stuff

679
00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:46.319
like that.

680
00:32:46.380 --> 00:32:50.039
But here's someone that she isn't bowled over by.

681
00:32:50.099 --> 00:32:53.400
Yeah, it's taking it in a stride, isn't it?

682
00:32:53.460 --> 00:32:53.700
Yeah.

683
00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:57.839
Yeah, yeah, respectful of, but not awed by.

684
00:32:57.900 --> 00:33:00.059
She's amused by it in a way, I think.

685
00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:03.720
And her acting his kiss at the end saying, by the way, mate, no

686
00:33:03.720 --> 00:33:04.619
fancy breasting.

687
00:33:04.680 --> 00:33:06.180
Yeah, I mean, that's what...

688
00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:08.940
It's lovely to see a story where she doesn't, in the same story

689
00:33:08.940 --> 00:33:11.519
where she goes, actually, no, not my type, but that's great.

690
00:33:11.640 --> 00:33:12.420
Yeah.

691
00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:16.200
And, you know, in an early draft, she does kiss him and the doctor

692
00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:20.940
interrupts, but again is totally oblivious to, you know, what is

693
00:33:20.940 --> 00:33:21.180
this?

694
00:33:21.240 --> 00:33:24.900
And yeah, I'm so glad, as you say, comrade, that they didn't go

695
00:33:24.900 --> 00:33:30.299
for her kissing Shakespeare, you know, because she she, there is

696
00:33:30.299 --> 00:33:33.359
someone that she's going to kiss later on in this season that

697
00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:36.059
feels a lot more appropriate for that, for that moment.

698
00:33:36.119 --> 00:33:39.059
But yeah, here it just wouldn't, it wouldn't quite have felt right

699
00:33:39.059 --> 00:33:42.720
because we do establish, and I believe there is some historical

700
00:33:42.720 --> 00:33:47.640
evidence for that Shakespeare liked the ladies, you know?

701
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:51.240
Well, it's back 57 academics, isn't it?

702
00:33:51.539 --> 00:33:54.900
You know, I don't like that 57 academics comment.

703
00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:59.339
That really, I keep thinking about that, and that, who is he

704
00:33:59.339 --> 00:33:59.940
saying it to?

705
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:02.220
What 57 academics?

706
00:34:02.279 --> 00:34:07.200
Is that actually in there with Merry Christmas to all of you at

707
00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:07.319
home?

708
00:34:07.319 --> 00:34:09.900
Because he is, it can only be the people at home.

709
00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:11.519
Yeah, yeah.

710
00:34:11.579 --> 00:34:13.800
It's not just an aside.

711
00:34:13.860 --> 00:34:16.139
He's specifically referring to the way the audience must be

712
00:34:16.139 --> 00:34:18.420
reacting to having seen that line of dialogue.

713
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:19.199
There's no other.

714
00:34:19.260 --> 00:34:20.219
Yeah.

715
00:34:20.219 --> 00:34:21.000
Yeah.

716
00:34:21.059 --> 00:34:25.260
And the theory that Shakespeare may have been what we would call

717
00:34:25.260 --> 00:34:31.199
these days bisexual, um, comes down to there's a series of sonnets

718
00:34:31.199 --> 00:34:38.219
that scholars argue whether they are dedicated to a woman or

719
00:34:38.219 --> 00:34:40.800
whether they're dedicated to a young man.

720
00:34:40.920 --> 00:34:42.300
Mr. WH all happiness.

721
00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:45.539
That's the that's at the front of the sonnets, and shall I compare

722
00:34:45.539 --> 00:34:47.159
thee to a summer's day is written to a young man?

723
00:34:47.219 --> 00:34:51.239
Oh, but oh, well, I thought, shall I compare these to a Summer's

724
00:34:51.239 --> 00:34:55.260
Day was part of the Dark Lady series. which is why the doctor

725
00:34:55.260 --> 00:34:58.980
reacts the way he does. when Shakespeare starts spouting that

726
00:34:58.980 --> 00:34:59.280
off.

727
00:34:59.340 --> 00:35:02.699
The doctor's like, 0 my god, these poems are about Martha.

728
00:35:03.960 --> 00:35:07.980
I have to say that I think that the treatment of actual kind of

729
00:35:07.980 --> 00:35:13.800
Shakespeare's kind of talent and writing is super annoying.

730
00:35:13.860 --> 00:35:15.119
All right.

731
00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:15.659
Yeah.

732
00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:19.559
And it's partly that sort of, you know, like I kind of I'm on

733
00:35:19.559 --> 00:35:22.260
board with the idea that he's sort of superhumanly kind of

734
00:35:22.260 --> 00:35:25.380
sensitive to the way other people are feeling and that he's sort

735
00:35:25.380 --> 00:35:27.000
of very intelligent and stuff.

736
00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:32.460
But just this sort of, he's a great towering genius, the like of

737
00:35:32.460 --> 00:35:33.539
which has never been seen.

738
00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:36.719
I think it's just part of that English heritage theme park

739
00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:37.199
approach.

740
00:35:37.500 --> 00:35:40.500
It's key stage 4 curriculum as well.

741
00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:44.340
Just for God's sake, if they've heard of one playwright. try and

742
00:35:44.340 --> 00:35:46.860
make sure they've heard of Shakespeare and they just build him up

743
00:35:46.860 --> 00:35:48.480
and build him up and build him up to try and make sure he gets

744
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:48.900
remembered.

745
00:35:48.960 --> 00:35:50.760
Yeah, and I'm calling him the one true genius.

746
00:35:51.059 --> 00:35:54.119
I mean, it's just not true in any way, but always had the right

747
00:35:54.119 --> 00:35:55.139
words in the right movie.

748
00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:56.400
He absolutely didn't.

749
00:35:56.460 --> 00:35:58.860
You know, he co-wrote these plays with people.

750
00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:02.639
There's a great book which I will sort of linked to at the end, but

751
00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:06.179
Emma Smith, who is the professor of Shakespeare studies at Oxford

752
00:36:06.179 --> 00:36:09.119
has just released a fantastic book called This is Shakespeare

753
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:11.639
which just cuts through and breaks down all of this sort of

754
00:36:11.639 --> 00:36:12.780
mystique around him.

755
00:36:12.840 --> 00:36:16.800
And she says the most over, if there's one thing, Shakespeare, when

756
00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:19.440
an overriding quality of Shakespeare, in his work, it's his

757
00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:25.019
gappiness, the inconsistencies, the ambiguity, the incompleteness

758
00:36:25.019 --> 00:36:27.239
that's, she argues that that's what makes him interesting.

759
00:36:27.300 --> 00:36:28.500
That's what makes it accessible.

760
00:36:28.559 --> 00:36:29.639
This stuff isn't finished.

761
00:36:29.699 --> 00:36:30.420
It isn't perfect.

762
00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:33.840
It raises far more questions and it answers and it's deeply

763
00:36:33.840 --> 00:36:34.380
imperfect.

764
00:36:34.440 --> 00:36:38.519
So, but what's interesting is, as I agree with Nathan, I think

765
00:36:38.519 --> 00:36:41.099
this sort of Shakespeare is, wow, he's the best, he's the great.

766
00:36:41.159 --> 00:36:45.599
Again, that's a really speedy tourist guide way through it.

767
00:36:45.659 --> 00:36:48.599
But I also think it's quite interesting because the doctor and

768
00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:52.139
Shakespeare in this are often complimenting each other on who's

769
00:36:52.139 --> 00:36:52.559
the genius.

770
00:36:52.619 --> 00:36:54.960
And I'm never quite sure whether this, whether we're supposed to

771
00:36:54.960 --> 00:36:57.179
leave with the doctors sort of applauding him going, wow, you're

772
00:36:57.179 --> 00:36:57.480
the one.

773
00:36:57.539 --> 00:37:00.239
You're the genius, and then frequently Shakespeare's saying to him

774
00:37:00.239 --> 00:37:02.639
again, wow, doctor, I thought I was clever.

775
00:37:02.699 --> 00:37:03.480
You are the one.

776
00:37:03.539 --> 00:37:06.659
They can't really decide who the one true genius is.

777
00:37:06.719 --> 00:37:08.639
The answer is it's neither of them.

778
00:37:10.139 --> 00:37:16.139
I think, and and just the nicest, just neatest summary I could

779
00:37:16.139 --> 00:37:19.380
give you from this book, Emma Smith wrote, was that she personally

780
00:37:19.380 --> 00:37:22.380
sees somewhere straight as Shakespeare that you could have a drink

781
00:37:22.380 --> 00:37:25.079
and a good conversation with rather than someone you should bow

782
00:37:25.079 --> 00:37:27.840
down before, and I feel the same about Shakespeare and the

783
00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:28.079
doctor.

784
00:37:34.139 --> 00:37:35.639
Certainly, as well.

785
00:37:35.699 --> 00:37:39.179
There's really not, you know, there are nods to the things that

786
00:37:39.179 --> 00:37:43.800
people know about Shakespeare, you know, the famous lines and all

787
00:37:43.800 --> 00:37:44.159
of that.

788
00:37:44.219 --> 00:37:47.699
It's almost like he's been sort of quote mining Shakespeare or

789
00:37:47.699 --> 00:37:52.440
gone to the sort of Shakespeare desk calendar and sort of picked

790
00:37:52.440 --> 00:37:54.780
the things that, you know, that everyone remembers.

791
00:37:54.840 --> 00:38:00.239
And I think when we see some dialogue from Love's Labours won.

792
00:38:00.300 --> 00:38:01.739
It's terrible.

793
00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:04.920
Like it's shockingly bad.

794
00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:09.059
Can I just say about Love's Labour's Lost, though.

795
00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:10.559
The actual play.

796
00:38:10.619 --> 00:38:15.719
It's it's not. terribly highly regarded in Shakespeare's works.

797
00:38:15.780 --> 00:38:17.460
It's actually a favourite of mine.

798
00:38:18.179 --> 00:38:23.039
So I really enjoyed that episode for this reason.

799
00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:28.440
But yeah, even there, some of the dialogue in it is quite clunky.

800
00:38:28.500 --> 00:38:34.860
It's kind of a, it's like Shakespeare wrote a carry-on. is what

801
00:38:34.860 --> 00:38:35.940
loves Labour's Lost is.

802
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:36.840
In in...

803
00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:38.699
Having lost things in my head by now.

804
00:38:39.960 --> 00:38:44.460
But, you know, in terms of tone, it's quite similar to 12th night

805
00:38:44.460 --> 00:38:45.840
except for the ending.

806
00:38:46.679 --> 00:38:50.880
So, yeah, the ending of 12th night, of course.

807
00:38:50.940 --> 00:38:57.000
Spoiler alert, um, has Malvolio turn up and say, I'm going to get

808
00:38:57.000 --> 00:39:01.079
revenge on all you naughty people for having me locked up in a

809
00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:07.079
mental asylum, whereas Love's Labours one ends with, um, so for

810
00:39:07.079 --> 00:39:10.260
those for those listeners who don't know the plot, you've got the

811
00:39:10.260 --> 00:39:14.940
King of Navarre and his 3 lords, and they decide they're going to

812
00:39:14.940 --> 00:39:19.800
swear off women, so they can study and better themselves.

813
00:39:19.860 --> 00:39:22.619
And just as they do that, the princess of France turns up with her

814
00:39:22.619 --> 00:39:27.840
3 ladies in waiting and the play revolves around all 4 of each

815
00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:31.260
side couple up and try and hide their relationship from the other

816
00:39:31.260 --> 00:39:31.679
three.

817
00:39:31.739 --> 00:39:37.079
And the play then ends with, you know, a big dance, the guys get

818
00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:41.159
the girls, but then there's a message, the king of France is ill

819
00:39:41.159 --> 00:39:45.300
and the princess must go home, and that's where the sequel would

820
00:39:45.300 --> 00:39:50.400
pick up, and we have the actor, Dick, who is meant to be Richard

821
00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:55.260
Burbage, walk onto stage and say, you know, when we last left our

822
00:39:55.260 --> 00:39:58.619
fair lovers in the kingdom of Navarre, et cetera, et cetera, et

823
00:39:58.619 --> 00:39:58.920
cetera.

824
00:39:59.159 --> 00:40:02.099
There is a Love Zipers one, though.

825
00:40:02.159 --> 00:40:06.239
Like it's mentioned in a list of Shakespeare's plays by someone.

826
00:40:07.139 --> 00:40:10.199
If Google hasn't lied to me.

827
00:40:10.260 --> 00:40:11.940
No, that is that is true.

828
00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:12.599
Yeah.

829
00:40:12.599 --> 00:40:13.260
Yeah.

830
00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:16.139
And I think calling the sequel, Love's Labour's one, that was just

831
00:40:16.139 --> 00:40:16.800
asking for trouble.

832
00:40:16.860 --> 00:40:19.980
I presume there was a Love Labours 2, which would be the 3rd one.

833
00:40:20.039 --> 00:40:22.980
Loves Labour's Tokyo Drift.

834
00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:27.900
Everyone just got really annoyed and been there, which I think is

835
00:40:27.900 --> 00:40:32.280
the, is the explanation that certain theatrical types might

836
00:40:32.280 --> 00:40:34.860
believe is, even if Shakespeare even existed.

837
00:40:35.639 --> 00:40:38.280
That loves Labor's one.

838
00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:43.500
Love's Labour's one was the working title for this, which wouldn't

839
00:40:43.500 --> 00:40:45.960
have worked on any level, especially not martyrs.

840
00:40:46.019 --> 00:40:46.619
No, yeah.

841
00:40:46.679 --> 00:40:49.559
Yeah, nobody wins any labours of love in it.

842
00:40:49.619 --> 00:40:50.400
That's good point.

843
00:40:50.460 --> 00:40:51.900
I think Shakespeare code is a good.

844
00:40:51.960 --> 00:40:53.699
Again, that's a really good...

845
00:40:53.820 --> 00:40:55.619
I mean, the Kath and Kim code was massive.

846
00:40:55.679 --> 00:40:57.300
It was great.

847
00:40:57.360 --> 00:40:59.579
Picking up on just a year later.

848
00:40:59.639 --> 00:41:01.380
Yeah, it's unusual.

849
00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:02.579
Unusual.

850
00:41:02.579 --> 00:41:04.199
Australian podcast.

851
00:41:04.260 --> 00:41:04.739
Jeez.

852
00:41:04.739 --> 00:41:05.699
That was great.

853
00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:07.440
You sound more Australian than I do.

854
00:41:08.219 --> 00:41:12.659
Yeah, the other working title for this, when they decided not to

855
00:41:12.659 --> 00:41:15.000
do Love's Labours one as a title.

856
00:41:15.059 --> 00:41:18.539
And it was never serious, but it was just, you know, we need

857
00:41:18.539 --> 00:41:19.440
another title right now.

858
00:41:19.500 --> 00:41:20.579
Theatre of Doom.

859
00:41:21.780 --> 00:41:23.400
I love that.

860
00:41:23.460 --> 00:41:26.820
You know, what else can you expect from the co-writer of the one

861
00:41:26.820 --> 00:41:28.260
doctor and bang, bang, boom.

862
00:41:44.159 --> 00:41:50.280
Magic and witches, uh, carry on ites, uh, which is not...

863
00:41:50.280 --> 00:41:53.280
That would be a fun story.

864
00:41:53.340 --> 00:41:56.280
But, yeah, well, we've talked for quite a long time without

865
00:41:56.280 --> 00:41:58.380
actually mentioning the plot yet.

866
00:41:58.440 --> 00:42:01.440
Does that say something for the importance of the plot to this

867
00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:05.760
particular episode that it's almost, uh, not my afterthoughts

868
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:08.760
being unkind, but it's so much about here.

869
00:42:08.820 --> 00:42:09.900
We are doing Shakespeare.

870
00:42:09.960 --> 00:42:11.340
Like, oh, and there's some evil witches.

871
00:42:11.400 --> 00:42:13.380
Is the plant, they have a bit of a dance.

872
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:15.659
It's all as funny and thought provoking as usual.

873
00:42:15.719 --> 00:42:17.579
That's basically it, isn't it?

874
00:42:17.639 --> 00:42:18.480
Pretty much.

875
00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:22.260
Yeah, I have to say, you know, that is the line.

876
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:25.380
Like, it's, they have a bit of a dance, you know, it's always

877
00:42:25.380 --> 00:42:26.579
thought provoking as usual.

878
00:42:26.639 --> 00:42:29.039
That is the line, getting back to what you guys were saying

879
00:42:29.039 --> 00:42:34.679
earlier, about how Shakespeare is elevated to this sort of deity

880
00:42:34.679 --> 00:42:40.380
of literature when, by modern standards, he was riding EastEnders

881
00:42:40.380 --> 00:42:43.679
and there is nothing wrong with EastEnders, but he wasn't in his

882
00:42:43.679 --> 00:42:46.739
time writing something incredibly highbrow.

883
00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:48.840
He was writing populist fiction.

884
00:42:48.960 --> 00:42:53.460
You know, and that line is what brings home, you know, to

885
00:42:53.460 --> 00:42:54.179
Shakespeare.

886
00:42:54.239 --> 00:42:55.679
These are just words.

887
00:42:55.739 --> 00:42:59.820
He he thinks he's clever and he believes he's clever, but he

888
00:42:59.820 --> 00:43:03.539
doesn't believe that he's right, you know, he's writing the best

889
00:43:03.539 --> 00:43:04.860
thing that ever lived.

890
00:43:04.920 --> 00:43:09.539
Yeah, and I'm kind of glad that they didn't bring him forward to

891
00:43:09.539 --> 00:43:11.880
the present day and take him around a gift shop to show him how

892
00:43:11.880 --> 00:43:13.860
wonderfully he'll be remembered.

893
00:43:15.179 --> 00:43:20.099
I know that there's always a temptation to do that and that's a

894
00:43:20.099 --> 00:43:20.940
bit too knowing for me.

895
00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:24.780
Yeah, it worked in Vincent and the doctor, but yeah, I think here

896
00:43:24.780 --> 00:43:26.940
or even on Quiet Dead.

897
00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:29.340
It just would have been, you know, pointless.

898
00:43:29.400 --> 00:43:33.659
Yeah, and you can have all the feelings about this person and

899
00:43:33.659 --> 00:43:37.920
their legacy by just seeing them in full flow and doing it.

900
00:43:37.980 --> 00:43:40.800
I don't necessarily need to be to have them dragged into the

901
00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:45.119
present day to know that, but that's fun too, of course, but yeah

902
00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:46.860
and it's interesting.

903
00:43:46.920 --> 00:43:48.719
It's good that they picked Shakespeare at a point where he's

904
00:43:48.719 --> 00:43:51.599
absolutely at the height of his powers. and his popularity.

905
00:43:51.659 --> 00:43:56.219
So the doctor and him doing the jokey bit about doing quotes of

906
00:43:56.219 --> 00:44:01.139
each other, works without it being sort of anachronistically

907
00:44:01.139 --> 00:44:02.340
patronising to him.

908
00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:06.659
Whereas, for example, H.G. Wells, was apparently a complete

909
00:44:06.659 --> 00:44:09.900
bumbling idiot until he got to see the wonders of Carful and was

910
00:44:09.900 --> 00:44:12.539
given all those ideas to put in all his books.

911
00:44:14.039 --> 00:44:16.320
Now, talk about Dog 2 titles.

912
00:44:17.699 --> 00:44:19.980
My time does have coughed.

913
00:44:20.039 --> 00:44:22.559
My timelash sequel is called the cover, what you wish for, and

914
00:44:22.559 --> 00:44:24.900
it's coming to big finish.

915
00:44:24.900 --> 00:44:26.820
Okay, I want that.

916
00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:29.340
So be careful what you wish for.

917
00:44:29.400 --> 00:44:30.960
Be careful what you wish for.

918
00:44:31.019 --> 00:44:32.340
Be careful what you wish for.

919
00:44:32.400 --> 00:44:33.840
There you go, it's a box set.

920
00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:38.039
With Anna Hope's novice haim.

921
00:44:39.719 --> 00:44:41.159
Wow.

922
00:44:43.260 --> 00:44:46.320
Actually, Danny Dyer is the borat.

923
00:44:46.380 --> 00:44:47.579
I'm really...

924
00:44:49.920 --> 00:44:53.820
You know, I have to say my favourite quote is the Sicorax one

925
00:44:53.820 --> 00:44:56.039
which I think is sort of terribly good.

926
00:44:56.099 --> 00:44:56.820
Yeah, yeah.

927
00:44:56.880 --> 00:44:58.079
This reminds me of a sicker act.

928
00:44:58.139 --> 00:45:01.139
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that he goes back and uses that in The Tempest.

929
00:45:01.199 --> 00:45:01.920
Yes.

930
00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:02.460
There you go.

931
00:45:02.519 --> 00:45:04.800
I've been trying to think about the Carrionites.

932
00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:08.099
I'm just trying to get my head around what I think of them.

933
00:45:08.159 --> 00:45:10.019
I think when I 1st remember this episode.

934
00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:12.179
I was like, nah, fairly generic witches.

935
00:45:12.179 --> 00:45:15.360
And the monsters, I didn't quite quite get there.

936
00:45:15.360 --> 00:45:18.840
And I've been, I think I've revised it seeing it since because I

937
00:45:18.840 --> 00:45:19.559
actually really enjoyed.

938
00:45:19.619 --> 00:45:22.079
I really enjoyed Christina Cole as Lilith.

939
00:45:22.139 --> 00:45:26.579
I think she did a fantastic job of doing both parts, incredibly

940
00:45:26.579 --> 00:45:28.440
well, and they all did through these huge masks.

941
00:45:28.500 --> 00:45:30.780
I think, you know, the performances of the witches are great.

942
00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:35.760
But as monsters, they didn't quite grab me and I like a monster.

943
00:45:35.820 --> 00:45:38.039
And when they mentioned that cicarette line.

944
00:45:38.099 --> 00:45:41.820
And later on, Lilith said it's all blood and magic.

945
00:45:41.820 --> 00:45:44.460
I thought, oh, this, in another life, this could have been a

946
00:45:44.460 --> 00:45:45.360
Sicorax story.

947
00:45:45.599 --> 00:45:47.400
I would have loved that.

948
00:45:47.460 --> 00:45:50.880
I'd love to see the full part version of this, because I think

949
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:54.179
here we get episode one and then episode four of a four-parter.

950
00:45:54.179 --> 00:45:58.019
All of the stuff in the middle about, there's a lovely line about

951
00:45:58.019 --> 00:45:59.760
them having been banished by the Eternals.

952
00:45:59.820 --> 00:46:02.400
So it was actually Linda Barron, who...

953
00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:04.380
Steinline.

954
00:46:04.380 --> 00:46:06.059
And I want to see that too, big finish.

955
00:46:06.119 --> 00:46:07.679
I want to see that on stage.

956
00:46:07.739 --> 00:46:08.579
That was on pick.

957
00:46:08.639 --> 00:46:09.659
Yeah.

958
00:46:09.719 --> 00:46:12.900
Um, and um, can you have your hands on your hips and your legs

959
00:46:12.900 --> 00:46:13.800
akimbo at the same time?

960
00:46:13.860 --> 00:46:15.300
Oh, yeah. sure you can.

961
00:46:15.539 --> 00:46:17.460
Obligatory.

962
00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:19.079
What was it going?

963
00:46:19.139 --> 00:46:19.500
Oh, yeah.

964
00:46:19.559 --> 00:46:21.840
So, yeah, all that filling in. you know, so here we are.

965
00:46:21.900 --> 00:46:24.480
We're just some witches And it's taken Doctor Who a hell of a long

966
00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:27.119
time to do some actual chromie witches, hasn't it?

967
00:46:27.179 --> 00:46:30.480
We've had the fantastic Miss Hawthorne, but in a completely

968
00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:32.940
different genre.

969
00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:37.019
But this is the 1st time we've had evil cackling, witches in

970
00:46:37.019 --> 00:46:38.820
Doctor Who, brackets, but actually it's science.

971
00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:42.599
Um, and I don't know, is that because I think, I don't know, maybe

972
00:46:42.599 --> 00:46:45.659
in the past, they were seen as being too much of a baddie from a

973
00:46:45.659 --> 00:46:49.559
kiddies show and let's not go there or just there's no way that

974
00:46:49.559 --> 00:46:50.760
you could dress this up as science.

975
00:46:50.820 --> 00:46:52.920
They don't really dress it up as science, do they?

976
00:46:52.980 --> 00:46:53.579
Not much.

977
00:46:53.639 --> 00:46:54.780
Absolutely not.

978
00:46:54.840 --> 00:46:55.440
No, no, no.

979
00:46:55.500 --> 00:46:56.400
It doesn't...

980
00:46:56.460 --> 00:46:59.699
I mean, when you describe sort of science of affecting the world

981
00:46:59.699 --> 00:47:01.260
through the use of words.

982
00:47:01.320 --> 00:47:04.679
I mean, that's magic, you know..

983
00:47:04.739 --> 00:47:06.059
Yeah, yeah, but that's magic as well.

984
00:47:06.119 --> 00:47:09.780
I mean, you know, those things are magic and Doctor Who has always

985
00:47:09.780 --> 00:47:14.159
done magic and always kind of papered over it with a few badly

986
00:47:14.159 --> 00:47:17.159
chosen words of techno babble, and this continues that great

987
00:47:17.159 --> 00:47:18.000
tradition, I think.

988
00:47:18.119 --> 00:47:22.380
Yeah, it's a bit like in the Damons where the doctor says, no, no

989
00:47:22.380 --> 00:47:22.980
it's not magic.

990
00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:26.820
It's a clever building of psionic energy in order to revive a

991
00:47:26.820 --> 00:47:27.960
thing that looks like the devil.

992
00:47:28.019 --> 00:47:29.519
Miss Hawthorne says, that's magic.

993
00:47:29.579 --> 00:47:30.000
Yeah, no.

994
00:47:30.059 --> 00:47:30.599
Well, she's right.

995
00:47:30.659 --> 00:47:31.380
She's right.

996
00:47:31.500 --> 00:47:34.860
And it is psychic energy, which is a thing, but of course that's

997
00:47:34.860 --> 00:47:40.139
magical and there's some sort of hint towards them being terribly

998
00:47:40.139 --> 00:47:40.500
old.

999
00:47:40.559 --> 00:47:43.139
So perhaps the normal rules don't apply or whatever.

1000
00:47:43.559 --> 00:47:49.019
But they are sort of kids TV show Witches.

1001
00:47:49.079 --> 00:47:51.119
And that's absolutely not a criticism.

1002
00:47:51.179 --> 00:47:55.079
Yeah, again, it comes back to something, you were saying earlier

1003
00:47:55.079 --> 00:47:59.519
Pete, about the speed of production means if you're going to have

1004
00:47:59.519 --> 00:48:04.320
witches, they have to look like stereotypical witches.

1005
00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:08.340
I think their thought is, at the same time, if you're going to

1006
00:48:08.340 --> 00:48:12.059
hire Christina Cole, then you're going to have her sometimes

1007
00:48:12.059 --> 00:48:14.760
looking like Christina Collins, sometimes looking like the

1008
00:48:14.760 --> 00:48:15.960
stereotypical witch.

1009
00:48:16.019 --> 00:48:20.460
So... get it on screen Yeah, yeah, we pay.

1010
00:48:20.519 --> 00:48:21.480
Yeah, we paid for that face.

1011
00:48:21.539 --> 00:48:22.320
Get it on screen.

1012
00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:26.519
I mean, yeah, and if it was a longer story, that'd probably be a

1013
00:48:26.519 --> 00:48:27.480
reveal or something, you know.

1014
00:48:27.480 --> 00:48:29.699
You know, I almost never wanted to be a longer story.

1015
00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:33.179
I'm kind of done with it after 42 minutes, I have to say.

1016
00:48:33.239 --> 00:48:34.380
Yeah, that's true.

1017
00:48:34.440 --> 00:48:36.960
Yeah, then we'd all be sitting around saying cut it back to 2

1018
00:48:36.960 --> 00:48:38.219
episodes and it would be much snappier.

1019
00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:40.380
I mean, that's the thing.

1020
00:48:40.440 --> 00:48:45.599
I feel this is one story that, um, and possibly because I watched

1021
00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:48.659
this back-to-back with gridlock this week.

1022
00:48:48.719 --> 00:48:52.980
This feels very lightweight, and I'm not saying that as a

1023
00:48:52.980 --> 00:48:56.760
pejorative, I think it's a matter of it sets out with a very clear

1024
00:48:56.760 --> 00:48:59.760
intention of we're going to tell a story with Shakespeare and some

1025
00:48:59.760 --> 00:49:01.500
witches and it achieves it.

1026
00:49:01.559 --> 00:49:03.420
Yeah, it's gonna be a romp.

1027
00:49:03.480 --> 00:49:04.739
It's going to be a romp.

1028
00:49:04.860 --> 00:49:06.960
It doesn't, because it goes at such speed.

1029
00:49:07.019 --> 00:49:09.780
It doesn't stand up to scrutiny, that 1st locations that I

1030
00:49:09.780 --> 00:49:12.119
mentioned being, oddly, they should have just left it where

1031
00:49:12.119 --> 00:49:14.099
actually this went, right, we dress things and they sort of turn

1032
00:49:14.099 --> 00:49:14.760
it into a set.

1033
00:49:14.820 --> 00:49:20.159
And similarly, and this is a tiny, tiny, uh, niggle at why you, it

1034
00:49:20.159 --> 00:49:23.460
probably doesn't really bear up to too many rewatchings or too

1035
00:49:23.460 --> 00:49:26.760
much scrutiny, but the one thing that really bugs me, the witches

1036
00:49:26.760 --> 00:49:29.880
costumes, you would sort of imagine, oh, they wore rags.

1037
00:49:29.940 --> 00:49:32.820
But if you actually look at them, they are perfectly cut out.

1038
00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:38.219
They're all wearing identical. perfectly cut out feathered things

1039
00:49:38.219 --> 00:49:41.039
that have no purpose other than to look like witches right.

1040
00:49:41.099 --> 00:49:42.599
They are Halloween costume.

1041
00:49:42.659 --> 00:49:44.760
And it's like rags aren't that hard to make.

1042
00:49:44.820 --> 00:49:46.139
You know, you can...

1043
00:49:46.199 --> 00:49:49.619
But again, I think it's just, I don't want to sound critical, but

1044
00:49:49.619 --> 00:49:52.739
I just think because it's going at such speed, I think they just

1045
00:49:52.739 --> 00:49:55.920
go, right, witches costumes, bam, and it's this, I think generic

1046
00:49:55.920 --> 00:49:59.400
is an interesting the genericness of the witches and the

1047
00:49:59.400 --> 00:50:01.860
genericness of the streets and the genericness of a rock and roll

1048
00:50:01.860 --> 00:50:02.460
Shakespeare.

1049
00:50:02.519 --> 00:50:05.880
They're all very, very, it's just, it's just all done for speed

1050
00:50:05.880 --> 00:50:07.920
and I think there's nothing wrong with that.

1051
00:50:07.980 --> 00:50:11.039
I think when we 1st see the Tardar scene at the beginning, they're

1052
00:50:11.039 --> 00:50:11.639
zooming around.

1053
00:50:11.699 --> 00:50:12.539
She's like, how does this work?

1054
00:50:12.599 --> 00:50:14.039
He goes, it doesn't matter. lets get out of here.

1055
00:50:14.099 --> 00:50:17.400
And they, by the time they leave, they're leaving faster than the

1056
00:50:17.400 --> 00:50:19.260
speed of the, you know, of an arrow.

1057
00:50:19.320 --> 00:50:20.760
It's incredibly fast.

1058
00:50:20.820 --> 00:50:22.559
Sorry, to keep going back to it.

1059
00:50:22.619 --> 00:50:24.719
But that little detail really bugged me.

1060
00:50:24.780 --> 00:50:26.820
I was like, did you not...

1061
00:50:26.880 --> 00:50:30.360
Well, wasn't wasn't this the most expensive episode to date when

1062
00:50:30.360 --> 00:50:32.699
it was made, I think, partly because of all the night shooting and

1063
00:50:32.699 --> 00:50:36.300
getting down to London's the globe.

1064
00:50:36.420 --> 00:50:40.139
But and then Northern Night Shooting in Warwick and then a hell of

1065
00:50:40.139 --> 00:50:41.280
a lot of CGI as well.

1066
00:50:41.400 --> 00:50:45.659
So for an episode that's not a big, you know, it's not a bookend

1067
00:50:45.659 --> 00:50:46.199
episode.

1068
00:50:46.260 --> 00:50:48.659
They did certainly push the boat out on it.

1069
00:50:48.719 --> 00:50:51.539
I mean, as you say, maybe two, maybe more than they needed to.

1070
00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:53.639
Yes, sometimes like, actually, you've got everything here.

1071
00:50:53.699 --> 00:50:54.480
You can just use it.

1072
00:50:54.539 --> 00:50:57.719
And I think the last one of these points are going to make is it's

1073
00:50:57.719 --> 00:51:01.380
the actual globe itself, they do a brilliant job of recreating.

1074
00:51:01.440 --> 00:51:04.500
I mean, I think the fact that they get 50 sporting artists and

1075
00:51:04.500 --> 00:51:06.599
make them into 1500 is brilliant.

1076
00:51:06.659 --> 00:51:10.019
But I was like, I just wish if they'd had a little more time.

1077
00:51:10.139 --> 00:51:15.420
The globe is a 360 degree space and I would have loved it if they

1078
00:51:15.420 --> 00:51:18.960
could have just got a handheld, gone through the door and given a

1079
00:51:18.960 --> 00:51:22.920
360, I feel they could have done that with a bit more time because

1080
00:51:22.920 --> 00:51:23.820
it's fully there.

1081
00:51:23.940 --> 00:51:26.340
Again, I just feel like I'm niggling.

1082
00:51:26.460 --> 00:51:28.320
But if there was more time or if they were going to do this in a

1083
00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:32.159
different way, there's just a more settled, grounded, real, realer

1084
00:51:32.159 --> 00:51:35.340
version of this story there, for another day, maybe.

1085
00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:35.699
Yeah.

1086
00:51:38.880 --> 00:51:43.079
What did the Carrionites do to the people that they get?

1087
00:51:43.139 --> 00:51:45.480
Are they actually eating them?

1088
00:51:45.539 --> 00:51:47.219
Are they what is?

1089
00:51:47.340 --> 00:51:50.460
I was listening very, very carefully to the noise, like to the

1090
00:51:50.460 --> 00:51:51.480
sound in the opening scene.

1091
00:51:51.599 --> 00:51:53.219
We may attack Wiggins, yeah.

1092
00:51:53.280 --> 00:51:53.699
Yeah, yeah.

1093
00:51:53.820 --> 00:51:57.000
And it does sound awfully like sort of popping bones and things.

1094
00:51:57.059 --> 00:52:00.420
I think they're, you know, they're probably ripping them apart and

1095
00:52:00.420 --> 00:52:00.840
eating them.

1096
00:52:00.900 --> 00:52:04.739
I do wonder if it's for their DNA replication modules.

1097
00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:07.260
Well, you can just chop some hair.

1098
00:52:07.380 --> 00:52:09.300
You know, you don't have to eat a whole person.

1099
00:52:09.360 --> 00:52:12.900
And then who are you going to do your voodoo on if you've eaten

1100
00:52:12.900 --> 00:52:13.079
them?

1101
00:52:13.139 --> 00:52:15.179
And it's not like they have floss.

1102
00:52:16.980 --> 00:52:20.400
I just thought perhaps, you know, as with all these ancient

1103
00:52:20.400 --> 00:52:23.099
creatures from the ancient dawn of time, perhaps they've all got

1104
00:52:23.099 --> 00:52:24.000
the Fenrick lean.

1105
00:52:24.059 --> 00:52:27.360
You know, you can lean over somebody and you can really give them

1106
00:52:27.360 --> 00:52:29.219
a nasty lean. leaner.

1107
00:52:30.179 --> 00:52:34.320
That was all sort out.

1108
00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:34.920
A soldier.

1109
00:52:34.980 --> 00:52:35.699
What a way to go.

1110
00:52:35.760 --> 00:52:36.659
What a way to go.

1111
00:52:36.719 --> 00:52:37.500
I don't mean.

1112
00:52:37.679 --> 00:52:41.940
And I read somewhere that there was a decision fairly early on

1113
00:52:41.940 --> 00:52:44.760
they were considering going with the fairies from Midsummer

1114
00:52:44.760 --> 00:52:48.179
Night's Dreamers being the baddies, doing magic on you, you know

1115
00:52:48.179 --> 00:52:49.559
and doing magical tricks and things on you.

1116
00:52:49.619 --> 00:52:52.019
And then they decided that, oh, let's do witches, which is a more

1117
00:52:52.019 --> 00:52:56.579
fun, or possibly just more inherently a bit more spooky.

1118
00:52:56.639 --> 00:52:59.039
But so that was on the cards at one point.

1119
00:52:59.099 --> 00:53:01.619
And it would have been another choice would have been, you know

1120
00:53:01.619 --> 00:53:03.420
there are witches in a Shakespeare play.

1121
00:53:03.480 --> 00:53:06.000
There is, you know, there's there's an argument to say that the

1122
00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:10.019
monsters or the threat could come out of an actual play and

1123
00:53:10.019 --> 00:53:15.420
certainly in The Tempest and also Henry V, they conjure up

1124
00:53:15.420 --> 00:53:15.840
storms.

1125
00:53:15.900 --> 00:53:17.880
You know, a character conjures up a storm during it.

1126
00:53:17.940 --> 00:53:20.760
So again, there's just another, there's a 1000000 ways of telling

1127
00:53:20.760 --> 00:53:23.760
doctor 2 stories, but in another, in another world, there's one

1128
00:53:23.760 --> 00:53:26.639
where they just use what's really there, you could use the real

1129
00:53:26.639 --> 00:53:27.420
Shakespeare play.

1130
00:53:27.480 --> 00:53:28.739
You could use all around the globe.

1131
00:53:28.800 --> 00:53:31.440
You could use a real location, you could use real racks.

1132
00:53:31.440 --> 00:53:35.699
There's another authentic way of doing this, but I think like the

1133
00:53:35.699 --> 00:53:37.559
witches, they're not trying to do an authentic version.

1134
00:53:37.619 --> 00:53:39.480
They're trying to do a lovely tour.

1135
00:53:39.539 --> 00:53:42.719
Give Martha and the audience a tourist experience of a whistle

1136
00:53:42.719 --> 00:53:43.199
stop tour.

1137
00:53:43.260 --> 00:53:45.480
That's what I kept coming back to, I think.

1138
00:54:13.800 --> 00:54:17.219
Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week.

1139
00:54:17.280 --> 00:54:20.579
We'll be back next week for a quick drive over to new New Brooklyn

1140
00:54:20.579 --> 00:54:21.840
in gridlock.

1141
00:54:21.900 --> 00:54:25.500
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1142
00:54:25.500 --> 00:54:28.559
and you can keep up with us at flightsthroughentirety.com, flight

1143
00:54:28.559 --> 00:54:31.980
through entirety on Facebook and at FTE podcast on Twitter.

1144
00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:36.360
You can also find our series 11 flashcast, Jody Interterra, at

1145
00:54:36.360 --> 00:54:40.320
Jody Interterra.com, and at Jody Interterra on Twitter, and our

1146
00:54:40.320 --> 00:54:44.280
James Bond commentary podcast, bondfinger at bondfinger.com, at

1147
00:54:44.280 --> 00:54:47.820
bondfinger on Facebook, and at bondfingercast on Twitter.

1148
00:54:47.880 --> 00:54:50.340
Where can people find you, Pete?

1149
00:54:50.400 --> 00:54:52.860
I'm on Twitter as well.

1150
00:54:52.980 --> 00:54:57.119
My name there is very Pete Lambert, and the handle is Prof

1151
00:54:57.119 --> 00:54:58.619
underscore quite a mess.

1152
00:54:58.679 --> 00:54:59.639
Brilliant.

1153
00:54:59.699 --> 00:55:02.099
And we'll put the link up, obviously, in the show notes, and

1154
00:55:02.099 --> 00:55:03.420
Conrad, where can people find you?

1155
00:55:03.480 --> 00:55:06.840
Yeah, I'm on Twitter at Hair of the Hound. underscore.

1156
00:55:06.900 --> 00:55:10.500
And I also just wanted to recommend this book by Emma Smith called

1157
00:55:10.500 --> 00:55:14.340
This is Shakespeare, which is a good digestible, no nonsense guide

1158
00:55:14.340 --> 00:55:15.179
to Shakespeare.

1159
00:55:15.239 --> 00:55:17.159
Also, I think it's worth saying.

1160
00:55:17.219 --> 00:55:20.579
I would also like to link to Julian and Sandy's boner bookshop

1161
00:55:20.579 --> 00:55:26.400
which is One of the best treatments of Shakespeare I've ever

1162
00:55:26.400 --> 00:55:26.699
heard.

1163
00:55:26.760 --> 00:55:28.380
I forgot to do mine.

1164
00:55:28.500 --> 00:55:30.539
And I picked it deliberately to make me seem clever, so I'm going

1165
00:55:30.539 --> 00:55:34.199
to, it's, but it is a really good, she's written an academic

1166
00:55:34.199 --> 00:55:37.139
called Miranda Kaufmann has written a really good book called

1167
00:55:37.139 --> 00:55:40.679
Black Tudors, The Untold Story, and it's like short biographies of

1168
00:55:40.679 --> 00:55:43.559
10 people who actually has tracked and covering everything.

1169
00:55:43.619 --> 00:55:46.679
There's musicians, there's sailors, someone who went off on cap

1170
00:55:46.679 --> 00:55:48.360
with Captain Cook's voyage and things like that.

1171
00:55:48.360 --> 00:55:52.079
And it's a real eye opener about how the world was divided up on

1172
00:55:52.079 --> 00:55:52.980
very different lines in those days.

1173
00:55:53.039 --> 00:55:54.659
Brilliant.

1174
00:55:54.719 --> 00:55:55.019
Awesome.

1175
00:55:55.079 --> 00:55:56.760
We'll put links to those in the show notes.

1176
00:55:56.820 --> 00:56:00.059
And thank you very much for joining us, both of you tonight.

1177
00:56:00.119 --> 00:56:00.719
Thank you, chaps.

1178
00:56:00.780 --> 00:56:03.119
Thank you, and thanks to James and Todd for letting us

1179
00:56:03.119 --> 00:56:03.539
understudy.

1180
00:56:03.599 --> 00:56:05.039
Yeah, you can let them out of that.

1181
00:56:07.739 --> 00:56:09.239
Quiet.

1182
00:56:09.659 --> 00:56:14.340
Until next time, what heaven more will that thee may furnish and

1183
00:56:14.340 --> 00:56:16.619
my prayers pluck down fall on thy head.

1184
00:56:16.679 --> 00:56:17.880
Farewell.

1185
00:56:17.940 --> 00:56:20.460
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1186
00:56:20.519 --> 00:56:21.420
Good night.

1187
00:56:21.480 --> 00:56:22.320
Good night.

1188
00:56:22.380 --> 00:56:22.739
Good night.

1189
00:56:25.920 --> 00:56:30.000
That was Flight 3 Entirety, starring Nathan Bodley, Brendan Jones

1190
00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:31.800
Pete Lambert and Conrad Westmers.

1191
00:56:31.860 --> 00:56:34.739
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Stringth Performance by Jane

1192
00:56:34.739 --> 00:56:35.460
Orberg.

1193
00:56:35.519 --> 00:56:38.579
This episode, it's neither of them, was recorded on the 4th of

1194
00:56:38.579 --> 00:56:41.519
August 2019 and released on the 22nd of September.

1195
00:56:44.579 --> 00:56:47.579
If, like Brendan, you would like to see attack of the grass

1196
00:56:47.579 --> 00:56:51.000
released on DVD, and of course you would, please keep an eye on

1197
00:56:51.000 --> 00:56:53.820
our Twitter feed for details of our upcoming nighttime protest

1198
00:56:53.820 --> 00:56:56.159
march on number 13 Bannerman Road, Ealing.

1199
00:56:56.219 --> 00:56:57.719
Or is it number 21?

1200
00:56:58.619 --> 00:57:03.900
Yeah, I wonder whether we, that's a really strong comment to end

1201
00:57:03.900 --> 00:57:04.260
it on.

1202
00:57:04.260 --> 00:57:05.639
To hit the Tartar song, yeah.

1203
00:57:05.699 --> 00:57:07.320
I think that's probably it then.

1204
00:57:07.380 --> 00:57:08.159
Yeah.

1205
00:57:08.219 --> 00:57:09.840
Do we need to talk about the end?

1206
00:57:09.900 --> 00:57:10.619
It's terribly boring.

1207
00:57:10.739 --> 00:57:15.239
Oh, well, no, you know, we've, yeah, they all get sucked into the

1208
00:57:15.239 --> 00:57:15.480
thing.

1209
00:57:15.539 --> 00:57:16.860
Yeah.

1210
00:57:16.860 --> 00:57:20.219
I love the applause at the end from the audience.

1211
00:57:20.280 --> 00:57:23.639
It's a bit well, it is very 4th wallbreaker, but at the same time

1212
00:57:23.639 --> 00:57:24.599
it's like, that's nice.

1213
00:57:24.659 --> 00:57:25.860
It's a really great moment.

1214
00:57:25.920 --> 00:57:29.880
The music stops and the music which had kind of interrupted Carrie

1215
00:57:29.880 --> 00:57:31.800
Knight's 1st appearance, which kind of bugged me a bit because I

1216
00:57:31.800 --> 00:57:34.199
really wanted a big monster reveal and the music just, it doesn't

1217
00:57:34.199 --> 00:57:35.099
really bother the music too much.

1218
00:57:35.219 --> 00:57:40.079
I love the fact that music stops and you just hear this one clap.

1219
00:57:40.079 --> 00:57:42.420
And it's a, it really feels like the glow.

1220
00:57:42.480 --> 00:57:46.260
It's great And Conrad's too modest to mention that he has trod

1221
00:57:46.260 --> 00:57:47.760
those boards himself, of course.

1222
00:57:47.760 --> 00:57:48.360
I have, I did.

1223
00:57:48.420 --> 00:57:50.519
I did, I did. year after this was out.

1224
00:57:50.579 --> 00:57:54.659
I unbelievably got a gig at Shakespeare's Globe in Romeo and

1225
00:57:54.659 --> 00:57:55.139
Juliet.

1226
00:57:55.199 --> 00:57:57.960
So I've been on that stage and all check, when I watched the, uh

1227
00:57:57.960 --> 00:57:58.440
watched it.

1228
00:57:58.500 --> 00:58:00.960
I thought they did a really good job of, of, I mean, that's really

1229
00:58:00.960 --> 00:58:01.679
really what it looks like.

1230
00:58:01.739 --> 00:58:06.059
If you look down, you see the groundlings, as they're called, the

1231
00:58:06.059 --> 00:58:08.400
people standing up, sort of leaning on the stage, if you look up

1232
00:58:08.400 --> 00:58:11.460
and as far left and far right, you can just see people.

1233
00:58:11.519 --> 00:58:15.239
That's why they, and they often give it the all to worlds a stage

1234
00:58:15.239 --> 00:58:15.539
thing.

1235
00:58:15.599 --> 00:58:18.840
Your actors are encouraged to use the space as the world.

1236
00:58:18.900 --> 00:58:21.059
So when the Carrionites say they're going to take over the world.

1237
00:58:21.179 --> 00:58:25.199
That's really nice because the globe was often used as the world

1238
00:58:25.199 --> 00:58:25.619
here.

1239
00:58:25.619 --> 00:58:28.380
When you refer to the heavens, you look up at the sky and you just

1240
00:58:28.380 --> 00:58:29.519
deal with whatever's there.

1241
00:58:29.579 --> 00:58:31.019
So it's lovely that elementals faced.

1242
00:58:31.079 --> 00:58:34.800
I was reading the, is it the Henry the 5th chorus, which says this

1243
00:58:34.800 --> 00:58:38.940
would know and where the chorus comes forward and encourages the

1244
00:58:38.940 --> 00:58:43.860
audience to regard this building, this very building as a place

1245
00:58:43.860 --> 00:58:47.519
where, you know, 2 empires are fighting, well, not 2 empires, 2

1246
00:58:47.519 --> 00:58:49.260
kingdoms are fighting over something.

1247
00:58:49.320 --> 00:58:51.599
You know, this is the whole world.

1248
00:58:51.659 --> 00:58:52.380
Yeah.

1249
00:58:53.219 --> 00:58:55.380
Yeah, it is immersive.

1250
00:58:55.500 --> 00:58:56.940
You are in you're in this experience.

1251
00:58:57.000 --> 00:58:59.280
Who did you play, Conrad?

1252
00:58:59.760 --> 00:59:03.480
I gave my Friar Lawrence.

1253
00:59:04.199 --> 00:59:05.579
Wow.

1254
00:59:05.579 --> 00:59:06.780
Yeah, that's fantastic.

1255
00:59:06.840 --> 00:59:07.980
So it was all your fault.

1256
00:59:08.760 --> 00:59:10.739
Yes, it was.

1257
00:59:10.860 --> 00:59:14.099
So here's some great advice for you.

1258
00:59:14.159 --> 00:59:18.780
Me and the nurse...

1259
00:59:18.840 --> 00:59:21.119
I did I was quite curious.

1260
00:59:21.179 --> 00:59:24.480
I wanted to see how many doctors actors had been on, been at the

1261
00:59:24.480 --> 00:59:25.440
globe or done Shakespeare.

1262
00:59:25.500 --> 00:59:29.039
I had a quick whiz through and Hartnell and Trouton obviously had

1263
00:59:29.039 --> 00:59:31.260
done tons of Shakespeare, although the actual globe wasn't

1264
00:59:31.260 --> 00:59:32.699
reconstructed by then.

1265
00:59:32.760 --> 00:59:33.539
Are they that old?

1266
00:59:33.599 --> 00:59:34.980
Yeah, exactly.

1267
00:59:34.980 --> 00:59:37.619
With the original, with the opening production.

1268
00:59:37.800 --> 00:59:41.280
And Tom Baker famously gave his Macbeth, which apparently brought

1269
00:59:41.280 --> 00:59:42.599
the house down, as he likes to say.

1270
00:59:42.659 --> 00:59:46.199
Sylvester McCoy, actually, probably has the biggest, one of the

1271
00:59:46.199 --> 00:59:49.199
biggest, sort of Shakespeare histories as playing a full, playing

1272
00:59:49.199 --> 00:59:52.380
lots of fools, but particularly uh, uh, with, with, with Kim

1273
00:59:52.380 --> 00:59:52.800
Lear.

1274
00:59:52.860 --> 00:59:54.059
Yeah, Ian McCellen.

1275
00:59:54.119 --> 00:59:55.380
But in McCall, I saw that.

1276
00:59:55.440 --> 00:59:56.159
I saw it.

1277
00:59:56.400 --> 00:59:56.820
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1278
00:59:56.880 --> 01:00:00.300
So I live just up the road from Stratford and get down there quite

1279
01:00:00.300 --> 01:00:03.000
often to see stuff, Shakespeare stuff.

1280
01:00:03.059 --> 01:00:03.480
What's there?

1281
01:00:03.539 --> 01:00:07.920
And yeah, he played the spoons a lot, which is not part of the

1282
01:00:07.920 --> 01:00:09.719
text, but he was good.

1283
01:00:09.780 --> 01:00:12.300
He was well cast and they were a good, they were a good pairing.

1284
01:00:12.360 --> 01:00:16.320
So, and because the fool is such a tragic character, then, and

1285
01:00:16.320 --> 01:00:20.400
disappears mysteriously, and they made it less mysterious via the

1286
01:00:20.400 --> 01:00:21.119
staging.

1287
01:00:21.239 --> 01:00:24.599
It was Yeah, it was really good in that.

1288
01:00:24.659 --> 01:00:25.800
That did come here.

1289
01:00:25.860 --> 01:00:28.199
The 2 of them came here and did it.

1290
01:00:28.260 --> 01:00:29.400
Yeah, T went to see it.

1291
01:00:29.519 --> 01:00:31.679
No, and I think, is this the story?

1292
01:00:31.739 --> 01:00:34.019
Like, and Todd Sylvester.

1293
01:00:34.079 --> 01:00:37.320
No, no, like...

1294
01:00:37.320 --> 01:00:38.579
One story at a time.

1295
01:00:38.639 --> 01:00:43.139
Okay, so Todd, so Todd went to the production here and he may have

1296
01:00:43.139 --> 01:00:44.699
had to fly to Melbourne to do it or something.

1297
01:00:44.760 --> 01:00:45.780
Yes, yes, it was only in Melbourne.

1298
01:00:45.840 --> 01:00:48.900
But he was speaking to Sylvester afterwards because Todd used to

1299
01:00:48.900 --> 01:00:51.360
organise our conventions here and so he knows everyone.

1300
01:00:51.420 --> 01:00:56.639
And he asked, I think Sylvester asked him what he thought of Ian

1301
01:00:56.639 --> 01:01:01.860
McCellen, but at some point, Sylvester said, oh, there was

1302
01:01:01.860 --> 01:01:04.380
something about McCellen getting naked and Sylvester said he's a

1303
01:01:04.380 --> 01:01:05.159
big boy, isn't he?

1304
01:01:05.280 --> 01:01:09.539
Yeah, well, what happens is there's, I think it's during the

1305
01:01:09.539 --> 01:01:11.940
blowwind crack your foul cheeks scene.

1306
01:01:13.380 --> 01:01:16.260
Which hadn't thought of that.

1307
01:01:16.320 --> 01:01:21.059
But, sort of, Lear comes to the front of the stage and he's

1308
01:01:21.059 --> 01:01:24.239
screaming at the storm and it's meant to be kind of an Adir of his

1309
01:01:24.239 --> 01:01:24.719
madness.

1310
01:01:25.320 --> 01:01:30.780
And the way they decided to do it was McKellen would flop it out.

1311
01:01:30.840 --> 01:01:33.900
Well, basically, as he was standing there, his trousers would

1312
01:01:33.900 --> 01:01:34.320
fall.

1313
01:01:34.380 --> 01:01:35.519
Oh, okay.

1314
01:01:35.519 --> 01:01:37.500
And the king wouldn't pick them up.

1315
01:01:37.559 --> 01:01:39.000
The fool would come in and pick them up.

1316
01:01:39.059 --> 01:01:42.239
So Silver's like, every night. and face to face.

1317
01:01:43.260 --> 01:01:45.480
With mini Gandolf.

1318
01:01:45.539 --> 01:01:50.699
I managed to get front row seats to that and also to see Gisette

1319
01:01:50.699 --> 01:01:54.780
Simon as Cleopatra, which had a very similar...

1320
01:01:54.780 --> 01:01:55.320
Can we touch you?

1321
01:01:55.380 --> 01:02:01.440
I, I, I'm almost as closely affiliated to dessert Simon as I am to

1322
01:02:01.440 --> 01:02:01.920
my own mother.

1323
01:02:01.980 --> 01:02:04.920
As a result of the scene where she's getting out of a bath in

1324
01:02:04.920 --> 01:02:05.099
that.

1325
01:02:09.599 --> 01:02:13.980
Yeah, yeah, you really do see some sights.

1326
01:02:17.039 --> 01:02:18.000
Oh brilliant.

1327
01:02:18.119 --> 01:02:19.739
Okay, I think that's our tag.

1328
01:02:19.739 --> 01:02:20.880
Yes, yes.

1329
01:02:21.360 --> 01:02:23.699
It's all staying in.

1330
01:02:24.960 --> 01:02:28.380
So we're going to do our outro.