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NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:24:56

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that speaks an infinite deal of nothing, more than any man in Venice.

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Well, maybe not the only one.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Pete.

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Conrad.

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Well, we've reached that point of the series where we pop back in time to help a famous historical figure, fight some monsters so withered and so wild in their attire that look not like the inhabitants of the earth and yet are on it.

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Magic wands at the ready.

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It's the Shakespeare code.

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First script by Gareth Roberts, who had been writing Doctor Who Stories since 1993 for the new adventures novels, but not his first contribution for the new series.

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He did write the TARD episodes last year, a book called I Am a Dalek, Attack of the Grasp, which still isn't on DVD and Blu-ray for some reason I can't readily understand.

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And of course, the novel Only Human was his new series output up till this point before Russell asked him to write about Shakespeare.

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So how'd he go?

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Hey, went okay.

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What do you guys think?

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Doctor Who in a hurry?

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Okay.

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Goodbye.

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So this is where we can really pay homage to Terence Dudley for all his amazing work in reformatting, Doctor Who, because he's invented the celebrity historical sort of.

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I mean, okay, we've had them since Marco Polo sort of also, but this is, I think, that I think is the 1st time we got a an alien menace in the form of the master, spoilers, up against a historical famous person.

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It really gets ramped up here, doesn't it?

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This is a theme park historical full on.

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I think they're trying to go sort of one better on Mark Gatis's, The Unquired Dead. you know, where do you go from Dickens, I guess, I guess Shakespeare.

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Yeah, and it's someone who is obviously on the national school curriculum.

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There's a real, um, have you guys got the horrible history series out over there on TV?

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It was books first.

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Yes indeed.

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That's hugely popular over here and it appeals to parents and kids and it is, you know, exciting romps through the, oh, I said romps.

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Well, the 1st person in this episode say wrong.

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Because this ain't the map.

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Saint Bartholomew's Eve, is it?

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No, Nathan likes this.

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And yeah.

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Horrible histories.

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They really go full out.

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It's historical figures as kids entertainment, and it focusses on that thing of, hey, people in the past were actually kind of similar to people you'd meet today, which is like an opposite take that you what you'll sometimes get.

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There's that opening sequence where we're seeing, we're shown how surprisingly similar it is to modern concerns and things like that, which is a, it sets out the store straight away, I think, for the kind of 42 minute ride that we're in for.

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So immediately he's like a rock star, isn't he?

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Like it's made very clear to us that this is popular entertainment for the time.

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And so we get an entire kind of giant computer duplicated crown in the Globe Theatre, all of whom have really terrible teeth.

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That's just...

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Dolly.

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I have to say Dolly's doing all right, though.

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She keeps herself nice.

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Yeah, no, there's some great sort of Elizabethan era veneers going there, right?

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I think Pete's right.

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It's a theme park.

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It does feel like theme park, Shakespeare, and sometimes it's as though it's it often sort of fakes things where it doesn't need to fake it.

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For instance, when they 1st land and they have a lovely sequence, which, as you say, goes through the, oh, this is recycling.

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This is a water cooler moment.

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And that street is actually a real street in Warwick, which you think, well, a fantastic location.

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But they've dressed it so much.

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It sort of looks like a set.

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It's kind of odd.

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It doesn't look like a location in the way that Talons of Wang Triang looks like the streets really look like London sort of cobble streets.

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In a way, I mean, I sort of joke that it's docto in a hurry, but it is going at such incredible speed.

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The production itself.

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You know, the fact they had to get into the globe overnight, you know, and had an hour to set up after a production.

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This is Dr. getting at really breakneck speed.

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And sometimes it's interesting. kind of they do sort of theme park things where actually there is a real, um, they could rely on the real setting around them.

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I don't know, that's just something they just kept cropping up as I was watching it.

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Yes, it's almost like, um, they want to make sure that whether you tune in with the continuity announcer or if you tune in 30 minutes into the episode, no matter what the 1st shot of the episode is that you say, they want you to know this is around the year 1600. you know, this is 1599.

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This is the 16, 17th century.

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Yeah, they want you to know as soon as you see it, there can't be any doubt.

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And yeah, I agree with you there.

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And especially sort of the whole thing is very sort of gold tinted.

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The lighting and the cinematography, and that's something that's true of a lot of RTD era, Doctor Who, a lot of stories have a particular colour and everything is tinted that colour. just because you had you had 2 directors of photography, I believe, in this era, who both were really fond of the use of colour as a shorthand to say, this is where you are right now.

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And indeed, one, I believe, Ernie Vince, if the TARDIS is sort of green on the interior, it's only Vincent.

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If it's gold, it's the other director of photography.

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And Russell and the rest of the crew were fine with that.

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It's like, yeah, well, you know, the TARTAs changed between stories and panels got moved around in the classic series.

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Okay, that's because it wasn't a standing set, but we can still do this.

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How many years did it take us to a group?

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Which one was the door handle?

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It was about 16 years, wasn't it?

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Oh, that sounds about that.

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Like, it really doesn't become the big red knob until Davidson, I think.

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Sorry, that's no way to talk about Peter Davidson.

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So he wants to give it the experience of Shakespeare, not necessarily.

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The real thing, he wants to give the experience, and arguably, they could have been there for 45 minutes.

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They obviously weren't intending to go into this whole adventure, but feasibly, it would have been a 45 minute whistle stop tour.

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Just have a look, just to get a flavour and a taste of it.

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And that's sort of what this episode feels like.

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It doesn't feel anything like, you know, the reality of witches so that you get witch finders later.

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It feels very much like a tourist whistle stop tour.

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And Martha's fascinating character because she's our 1st new whose 1st replacement companion, isn't she?

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She's the 1st time that we've got someone in the TARDIS now who knows less about it than all the viewers do.

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Whereas Rose was coming on with the new viewers and in meeting this world now, when we're seeing a scene in the TARDIS between the doctor and Rose, searching the doctor and Martha, oh, I'm doing it now.

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She's the, she's the rebound one and it's like, was that a good idea?

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Having Martha as his rebound person at this, because at the time, I'm really, I'm really liking Martha at this and I hadn't warmed the 10th doctor at all at first.

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I found that the thing with him and Rose was like, oh, we're watching a series about an amazing man and the feelings that an attractive woman gives him.

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I've never seen that on TV.

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Why not?

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This from the start.

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Verity Lambert really missed a trick.

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And it didn't it didn't endear me to him.

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And I only really started liking Tenet when he was paired up with Donna.

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She was the Tegan he needed all along.

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And so going back, I like him more watching this episode now than I did at the time because he is, if I can steal Conrad's words, show boating, and there's another word after that, that's the 4 letter word.

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Sometimes.

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You can only come once.

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I'm taking you home, but yeah, look how awesome I am and all the awesome stuff I can do.

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Which doesn't endear me to him.

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Yeah, I'll warn to him later.

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But, yeah, I think Martha's Arc is an interesting one and it's going to be interesting to see to listen through to you guys doing this series and how she's dealt with and everything.

106
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Yeah, I wasn't on last week's episode for Smith and Jones.

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So I just, I just want to say I loved Martha from the beginning.

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I thought she was...

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Now, at the time, in 2006, I didn't pick up on the sort of selfishness of Rose's character, which was deliberately there, deliberately put in by Billy Piper, until I saw Billy Piper say that letter and went back and watched it, yeah, actually.

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And something I love about Martha in contrast is that 1st scene where she's walking along the street and she keeps stopping the doctor and saying, but what about changing history?

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What if I kill my grandad?

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You know, what about I'm black?

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Is that going to be a problem?

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And, yeah, we come back to that years later with thin ice when Bill has the same question and realises, actually, no, there's black people in London, just like there is in the current day.

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It's not really said in this episode, but it's the whole thing of, yeah, well, you know, historical films, everyone assumes history was white.

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There were black people in the past, but they didn't have equity cards, so they can get cast.

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They all had to be John Bennett.

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Or Burt Quock.

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So this episode drove me to go and do some further reading because I do, um, history is what and Tudor history is one of my, um, one of my hobbies.

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I'm not qualified or anything, but I read a lot.

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And I got a great book on my audible subscription called Black Tudors, The Untold Story, where the academic who's written it has gone through the evidence that's now available that wasn't really easy to get hold of until just a few years ago of like parish records and baptisms and weddings and things.

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And I was identified a couple of 100 people, who definitely were black migrants to Britain, and it's their baptisms, that are the things that are now quite easier to track them by, because that was how you pretty much became a citizen.

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You couldn't get married or do anything in the 30 until you got baptised.

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There was no, it wasn't not so much of the multicultural, but it was arriving and being accepted into part of a parish as a member of it.

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And she goes off and she writes, you know, I mean, there's people doing all sorts of stuff.

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And that they were slotted in to every tier of the class system, uh, depending on their background because at that point, modern racism just hadn't, as we conceptualise it.

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It just hadn't hadn't grown yet.

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The slave trade is going off within the Spanish Empire, but England hasn't got an empire yet, so it doesn't even, it doesn't have the economic motive to really get stuck into that until the horrors that came in the following century.

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But at this point, um, there's probably a couple of 100 black people in London out of a population of a couple of 100,000.

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So yeah, people aren't going to be pointing, stopping and pointing anyone who's got a different colour. face.

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They would glimpse the people like that occasionally.

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However, wearing a sleeveless top, probably...

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And Shakespeare does comment on her clothes.

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Like, you know, so it was so fine and fitted.

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Can I just say I'm actually slightly irritated by the way the doctor dismisses Martha's concerns about racism?

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And it is just that he goes, oh, just sort of wander through and pretend you own the place, and it's always worked for me, and it's kind of like, oh, you know, and it feels like he's just encouraging her as a junior doctor to be, this is how you be a doctor, be just like me, which is that slight arrogance that you kind of get.

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Oh, end of that.

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But it makes him, it's a very glib way of addressing the issue of slavery.

139
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Yeah.

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Just do what I do.

141
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Dude, you're white.

142
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. exactly it.

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Nobody puts it him and says, what the hell have you got in your hair?

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But, you know, we also had that, obviously, without the concern for racism, but we also had that in Silver Nemesis when Ace sees the queen and the doctor says, just act like we own the place.

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I love that so much.

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That's a brilliant scene.

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So that's, of course, Chinese accent got better every episode.

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This has been bugging me, baby, one of you can remind me.

149
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This is with silver nemesis.

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That is the story which also got an arrow in the TARDIS door and I was just like, I remember it going in, but did he pull it out when he got out of the door?

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been bugging me.

152
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Can anyone remember?

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Well, the 7th doctor does.

154
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Because, yeah, he pulls it out when he lands.

155
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And I think next week in gridlock, they pull it out of the door as well.

156
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Had to watch that bit just to make sure he pulled it out.

157
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These are little things that keep me awake for that.

158
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You're quite right.

159
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You're quite right.

160
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Maybe coronavores feast on them in the time corte.

161
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Vortasors, surely.

162
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Oh, that's the, that's what, yeah, yeah, that's what it meant.

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What do we think about Shakespeare himself then?

164
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It's very against type, isn't it?

165
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I guess, you know, sadly, Beryl Reed wasn't available, so they've gone for someone else.

166
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Who's going to do it a bit different, not quite so down with the kids as Beryl, but because he was a big deal at the time.

167
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He was in Shameless on Channel 4, which was at that point at the height of its cool countercultural thing where it came a bit of a parody of itself later on.

168
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Um, So I, I, I was like, oh, good, he's going to be in Doctor Who.

169
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But yeah, it's not really very Shakespeare.

170
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I mean, they lampshaded, don't they?

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Martha says that he doesn't look anything like his portraits and then there's a line later about him scratching his head and him being warned that if he keeps doing it, he'll go bald and then the doctor gives him the rough so that he ends up eventually, you know, we imagine that he turns into the Shakespeare that we're familiar from, you know, from our collected works volumes.

172
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But here, it is that desire to make the past exactly the same as the present and make him a rock star.

173
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So he has to be a big, you know, buffy, attractive guy who steps onto the stage and says, shut your big fat mouths.

174
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If anything, I'd like him a bit earthier, to be honest.

175
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I think this feels like another one of those instances where I thought, and so they've chosen Dean Lennox Kelly, who, as you said, played, it was already had that character under his belt, has been as rough and ready, guy, but I sort of think, I mean, I hadn't actually seen Shameless.

176
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So to me, I was like, oh, I know him.

177
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He's from Shameless, so he comes with that, but he's not in himself, an actually particularly rock and roll type of guy.

178
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I'd prefer them to go even further and have someone who's, you know, an East End sort of EastEnders or a Danny Dyer or someone who's actually rough and gruff and you can imagine having Barbara Rawls.

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This guy is, it's sort of rough, rough, but he's kind of got pretty hair and he's, he's a little sweetened over and I would have actually liked him even rougher, but maybe that's just me.

180
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Actually, I'm now imagining Danny Dyer playing the role and I think that would have been hilarious.

181
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You know what, wouldn't it?

182
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like someone really kind of shockingly outrageously, you know, Noel Gallagery, somebody really who's like, what is that person doing on that stage?

183
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Yeah, the one thing I, now, I am a devotee and follower of Mr. Dyer over the years, but various, but his, yeah, the thought of him attempting an even vaguely northern accent horrifies me.

184
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They overshoot with Lennox Kelly and land him in Manchester, but at least it's an attack.

185
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I was too far north, but it is a good.

186
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I think is this thing, which I just will keep going back to it.

187
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I just think the speed of the production just means they go for things which would signify something, but they don't necessarily need to go for the real thing.

188
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Yeah, there's nothing is done subtly here, is it?

189
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No, it's just like, oh, this is what it was like.

190
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Actually, who's a bit rock and roll?

191
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Well hey, let's move on.

192
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It doesn't you know, and that's fine.

193
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That gives us nice closer to the truth because he would have been a bar brawling.

194
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Theatrical drunkard lout sometimes.

195
00:16:50.940 --> 00:16:54.419
But again, it's just a little, is that, is that middle ground?

196
00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:58.799
It gives you a tourist, sort of Doctor Who, and certainly Gareth Roberts on his best behaviour, it slightly feels like.

197
00:16:59.100 --> 00:17:08.220
Yeah, and well, you can kind of understand that being the 1st chance he's got to write for the show proper, as it were.

198
00:17:08.220 --> 00:17:09.539
Definitely.

199
00:17:09.539 --> 00:17:15.059
Because this is, is this in between the Sarah Jane pilot and the start of the 1st series?

200
00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:15.720
Yeah, yeah.

201
00:17:15.779 --> 00:17:17.279
So, yeah.

202
00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:17.940
Yeah.

203
00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:27.059
So that tone, that's got its own tone of, of, you know, fun adventures with a hint of menace, but again, but not, um, never bleak or dark.

204
00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:30.779
And you can see this is coming from that same palette, isn't it?

205
00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:31.079
Yeah.

206
00:17:31.140 --> 00:17:32.220
Yeah, definitely.

207
00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:46.079
And the other thing with Shakespeare sort of being, you know, young and vivacious and very clearly he enjoys the company of the ladies and the gentlemen, 52nd and academics just punch the air.

208
00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:55.259
Well, all the portraits we have of Shakespeare do tend to come from the last few years of his life.

209
00:17:55.319 --> 00:18:03.180
Like, the Chandos portrait is 1610, and, you know, he's got very much a receding hairline.

210
00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:14.460
So I think they've they've cleverly chosen this 1599 time setting to kind of go, a lot of what is known of Shakespeare is known towards the end of his life.

211
00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:17.579
Therefore, if we said it a bit earlier, we're not contradicting much.

212
00:18:17.579 --> 00:18:26.099
They've also made an effort not to contradict what we know of Shakespeare from the classic series where the doctor refers to having met him a few times.

213
00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:29.400
Presumably that comes after this for Shakespeare.

214
00:18:29.460 --> 00:18:32.519
And saw him on TV in the 1st episode of the Chase.

215
00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:34.140
In the 1st episode of the Chase, yeah.

216
00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:40.500
Time of the Daleks, he spends time with him as a boy, but you could hand wave that and go, oh, yeah, well, you know, he was 10.

217
00:18:40.740 --> 00:18:42.480
He forgot about that sort of thing.

218
00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:48.299
Plus, that was a sort of weird Dalek time travel thing involving mirrors.

219
00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:49.799
So, you know, a wizard did it.

220
00:18:49.859 --> 00:18:55.380
Yeah, I really enjoy Dean Lennox Kelly's performance here.

221
00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:59.039
But yeah, now I'm imagining Danny Dyer, and I think I would have enjoyed that even more.

222
00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:05.579
I'm not saying they should have gone with something rougher, but it's just interesting to note how this is treading the middle ground. not going for full realism.

223
00:19:05.640 --> 00:19:07.859
It's not going for the most cheesy version of it.

224
00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:12.539
It's going for somewhere somewhere very broad in the middle and which is right, I think, for doctor at the time.

225
00:19:12.660 --> 00:19:13.440
And this came out.

226
00:19:13.500 --> 00:19:21.480
This came out of the same month that the Tudors started with, what's his name, Reese Myers, as a very unconventional looking Henry VIII.

227
00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:27.779
And so that was obviously in the zeitgeist at the time, like that, hey, let's do history.

228
00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:28.920
Like it's sexy and modern.

229
00:19:28.980 --> 00:19:29.819
Casanova.

230
00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:32.220
Of course, yeah, Casanova, whatever happened to him?

231
00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:36.960
That guy who's doing a mockney accent in Casanova.

232
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:40.019
David Davison or something?

233
00:19:40.559 --> 00:20:00.480
We actually talked about Casanova when we were doing Girl in the Fireplace because one of our panel was sort of unhappy that the past was a little bit too rock and roll and a little bit, you know, was not quite gritty enough, and it's clear that this version of Doctor Who isn't really interested in sort of faithfully recreating the past at all.

234
00:20:01.740 --> 00:20:08.640
It's very appropriate for Shakespeare, because he used to frequently pap his, his, uh, plays.

235
00:20:09.180 --> 00:20:10.980
They were big mass crowd entertainment.

236
00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:17.400
And I saw that sign for the elephant pub and I thought, I know something about it, but he referenced it in 12th night.

237
00:20:17.460 --> 00:20:21.359
He would, even though the 12th night set somewhere, Ilyria, somewhere completely made up.

238
00:20:21.420 --> 00:20:22.980
There's a quote from it.

239
00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:30.720
He says in the south suburbs at the elephant is best to lodge, you know, shout out to the local pub and everyone would laugh, the locals would get the joke and laugh.

240
00:20:30.779 --> 00:20:38.640
So I think it's completely consistent with Shakespeare as well as with Doctor Who, just to put to pull those the sublime and the ridiculous and jam them together, you know.

241
00:20:38.700 --> 00:20:44.940
Oh yeah, no, I mean, he has clock striking in Julius Caesar and people wearing doublets and things.

242
00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:50.460
Like, I mean, he really doesn't, you know, he himself doesn't care about historical accuracy, sort of in any way at all.

243
00:20:50.519 --> 00:20:55.619
No, just everything's happening in Italy because that's terribly fashionable at the moment.

244
00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:58.559
And we've got the props.

245
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:05.640
When I was a teacher and I had to teach Shakespeare.

246
00:21:05.700 --> 00:21:13.559
The way I always got the kids in was by pointing out, yep, this is a knob joke and they're like, what do you mean?

247
00:21:13.619 --> 00:21:15.480
Shakespeare doesn't Shakespeare's posh.

248
00:21:15.539 --> 00:21:16.740
Shakespeare doesn't do knob jokes.

249
00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:18.059
I'm like, Shakespeare does no jokes.

250
00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:19.920
What else do you think this is about?

251
00:21:19.980 --> 00:21:21.960
Screw your courage to the sticking place.

252
00:21:22.019 --> 00:21:23.160
What do you think she's talking about?

253
00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:25.980
She's saying he's not a man?

254
00:21:26.099 --> 00:21:28.200
He hasn't got he hasn't got a knob.

255
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:37.440
See, if you're on stage in Shakespeare, you know, it's obligatory to just make sure they really understand that joke with a pelvics thrust.

256
00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:44.160
I read about Diana Rigg playing Lady Macbeth once.

257
00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:47.579
And when she did the screw your courage.

258
00:21:47.579 --> 00:22:02.099
Line, she stopped at screw your courage, looked down at Macbeth's dick to the sticking place and then turned back out to the audience. mock curtain down marvellous.

259
00:22:02.940 --> 00:22:07.200
I'm going to the pub to breathe garlic on George Blaze and be who's coming?

260
00:22:08.579 --> 00:22:12.599
And finally, here we get we get the doctor in bed with a lady.

261
00:22:13.380 --> 00:22:16.859
It's actually really painful to watch that scene, I think.

262
00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:19.200
And he is really super horrible.

263
00:22:19.259 --> 00:22:21.660
Like, really extraordinarily horrible to her.

264
00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:26.700
And I think probably next week that will pay off a bit and things will calm down.

265
00:22:26.759 --> 00:22:36.420
But there's that moment where he actually just says to her, Rose would have known the right thing to say at this point. you know just openly dismissing her.

266
00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:40.259
And it's it's really, you know, it's pretty unpleasant.

267
00:22:40.319 --> 00:22:41.460
Yeah.

268
00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:47.400
Now, the thing is, I'm I'm quite famously, um, not ignorant.

269
00:22:47.460 --> 00:22:48.000
What the word?

270
00:22:48.299 --> 00:23:00.599
sort of blissfully unaware if anyone finds me attractive, you know, like my partner and I will go out to a bar and will leave and Rod will say, oh, you know, that guy in the blue shirt was checking you out.

271
00:23:00.599 --> 00:23:02.700
And I was, oh, was he?

272
00:23:02.759 --> 00:23:05.880
Oh, I thought he was just squinting, you know.

273
00:23:05.940 --> 00:23:17.819
So I watched this, I watched this scene and it's like, even I could not be this blissfully unaware that that Martha was attracted to me. you know it's obvious.

274
00:23:18.059 --> 00:23:20.460
It's very hard to read.

275
00:23:20.460 --> 00:23:25.500
What we supposed to be thinking is going on in this man, our hero's mind?

276
00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:29.640
And I showed this to my partner last night and he said, who is this scene for?

277
00:23:29.700 --> 00:23:31.740
Who's enjoying this scene?

278
00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:33.119
Where are we supposed to be?

279
00:23:33.180 --> 00:23:37.680
And he sort of said, he just went, oh, teenage girls who've got a crush on David Tennant?

280
00:23:37.740 --> 00:23:41.160
And I was like, well, perhaps the way the audience went at the time?

281
00:23:41.220 --> 00:23:43.680
Perhaps it is for people to go through that.

282
00:23:43.740 --> 00:23:50.279
But I, I, it's really difficult to position, anybody in this scene. where is the doctor?

283
00:23:50.279 --> 00:23:55.319
and I've to, I mean, there's, it's kind of, for someone being blissfully unaware.

284
00:23:55.380 --> 00:24:01.380
I sort of remembered, you know, unrequited love was on the 7th doctor's list of the 5 things he hated the most.

285
00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:02.099
Yes.

286
00:24:02.099 --> 00:24:10.740
And I was like, have you, obviously the doctor can change hugely between regenerations, but have you really forgotten the very thing you hate the most along with bus stations and tyranny?

287
00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:13.079
Where's the doctor in this scene?

288
00:24:13.079 --> 00:24:15.660
And where are we?

289
00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:20.099
It's one of the most disorientating scenes in Doctor Who for me.

290
00:24:20.460 --> 00:24:30.839
And she's known him about 3 hours, um, like, uh, well, because they had the previous story together and then they split up and then he just pops up and she jumps in the TARDIS with him.

291
00:24:30.900 --> 00:24:33.779
So it also makes her seem a bit.

292
00:24:33.900 --> 00:24:36.059
I mean, to be that swooney over someone.

293
00:24:36.299 --> 00:24:51.720
I think we spoke about that last week, that there's there is something, I think, sort of unpleasant and ill judged to have her kind of react the way she does to the sort of biotransfer kiss thing in Smith and Jones.

294
00:24:51.779 --> 00:25:02.819
And I guess it's kind of shorthand, and this is Doctor Who, and there's too many sort of rhinos running about the place to kind of go into their developing relationship or something.

295
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:06.660
But I do think that it is all a bit sudden.

296
00:25:06.779 --> 00:25:10.859
And you kind of wonder exactly why Russell chose to go there.

297
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:16.500
Yeah, I guess it's setting it up in time for getting ahead of ourselves.

298
00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:21.119
Um, the, uh, the 2 parter with, that I've forgotten the name of, the family of blood.

299
00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:29.579
By that point, he wants her to already be in love with the doctor which makes her not being able to really help him more tragic.

300
00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:32.819
So that's why at this point we're rushing so quickly into it.

301
00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:40.019
That's my sort of production room explanation as to why they leap at it like this so quickly.

302
00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:49.619
It feels very unfortunate, but luckily Martha gets to do some cool stuff later on in the episode and it feels like she's regaining some of something that she's, I think this attitude, this scene.

303
00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:52.799
It's a very big scene in the film in the episode or other.

304
00:25:52.859 --> 00:26:07.019
And it takes quite a while to regain dignity and independence from this bizarre moment of being in bed with this not hugely pleasant person, as a huge, as a big positive sign, and a big positive.

305
00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:15.299
In the 1st draft, he was supposed to strip down to his underwear and leap into bed, which was supposed to sort of pinpoint his obliviousness of it.

306
00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:16.200
And it's interesting.

307
00:26:16.259 --> 00:26:18.359
One doctor later, and that would have worked.

308
00:26:18.420 --> 00:26:24.779
If Matt Smith had gone right, Jim Jam's time, you know, and just taken his clothes and leapt into bed, it would have seemed comical and light, and he would have seen him oblivious.

309
00:26:24.839 --> 00:26:33.299
I mean, I think David Tennant quite rightly was against that because this doctor is, if he's aware of nothing else, it's how attractive he is.

310
00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:38.880
So again, it feels odd that he suddenly can't notice because he's always winking and saying how sexy he is.

311
00:26:38.940 --> 00:26:42.480
Yeah, and we've been through what he's, we've seen the emotions that he went through with Rose.

312
00:26:42.539 --> 00:26:44.279
This is not the 1st time he's met a human female.

313
00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:46.859
Yeah, it's weird.

314
00:26:46.920 --> 00:26:48.240
Odd one.

315
00:26:48.299 --> 00:26:49.019
Yeah.

316
00:26:49.079 --> 00:27:01.019
And like you say, I do like that Martha, and I don't think it's even a reaction to his rejection, but Martha takes a very proactive role in trying to solve the mystery.

317
00:27:01.079 --> 00:27:02.819
Absolutely Yeah.

318
00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:07.079
Yeah, I like that it's not her trying to get him to notice her.

319
00:27:07.140 --> 00:27:08.880
It's just she's contributing.

320
00:27:08.940 --> 00:27:10.440
Although it does have that effect.

321
00:27:10.500 --> 00:27:13.019
It does have that effect like, oh, Martha Jones, I like you.

322
00:27:13.079 --> 00:27:13.980
Yeah, yeah.

323
00:27:14.039 --> 00:27:27.660
Once they're in the globe and they're sort of theorising about what's going on, and she starts to do what she had done last week, which is be clever and, you know, work out what the rules are, and then he starts to notice that.

324
00:27:27.779 --> 00:27:32.579
Yeah, she's enjoying having an adventure as well as crushing on him so that, yeah.

325
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:44.700
Yeah, I mean, one of the moments I really like her in, even though it doesn't end too well for her, is when she does the naming of the Carrionite thing, and it doesn't work, and she turns around and says, what did I do wrong?

326
00:27:44.759 --> 00:27:45.599
Was it the finger?

327
00:27:47.220 --> 00:27:57.660
It's a very sort of scientific methodology from this from this junior doctor because when the doctor says I name the carrier and I, he's not pointing.

328
00:27:57.720 --> 00:28:01.440
So she does the point because, you know, that's a big dramatic thing.

329
00:28:01.500 --> 00:28:03.720
And so she kind of goes, okay, what did I do wrong?

330
00:28:03.779 --> 00:28:04.680
Was it the point?

331
00:28:04.980 --> 00:28:17.339
You know, it's just very subtle expressions of her intelligence, not just as an adjunct of the doctor, but having her own thought processes.

332
00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:21.240
I wonder if she's the 1st human companion who's got a degree.

333
00:28:21.299 --> 00:28:22.380
That's just suddenly struck me.

334
00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:26.279
She's obviously been to, she's obviously already got a degree and is now studying for a doctorate to become a doctor.

335
00:28:26.339 --> 00:28:30.059
Does that put her...

336
00:28:30.059 --> 00:28:32.220
She had lots of degree.

337
00:28:32.279 --> 00:28:34.799
But Liz isn't a companion.

338
00:28:34.859 --> 00:28:36.119
What?

339
00:28:37.500 --> 00:28:40.440
The doctor is her doctor.

340
00:28:40.500 --> 00:28:42.779
No, Liz is a companion.

341
00:28:42.839 --> 00:28:44.099
I have to say that all get letters.

342
00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:45.480
Okay, I'll reprase that.

343
00:28:45.539 --> 00:28:46.740
But it's uncommon.

344
00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:52.319
Particularly when we, yeah, particularly with a young, young companion for them to be someone who's actually gone to uni.

345
00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:54.299
Yeah, and a stark contrast for rose.

346
00:28:54.359 --> 00:28:54.839
Yes.

347
00:28:54.900 --> 00:28:56.579
Yeah, and she's middle. mean, she's middle class.

348
00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:11.160
That's the, this is, after the, having a, the 1st proper uh, working class companion for a long time, um, Ace's, Ace's position in the British class system is a fascinating one to go into.

349
00:29:11.220 --> 00:29:17.279
We like to claim she's upper middle class. upper middle class rebel.

350
00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:23.940
I mean, going back to, you know, why did Russell go for this unrequited love angle?

351
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:36.000
I think that, you know, that might actually be tied up with Martha being from a more, and I say this, not ironically, upper middle-class background, and, you know, she's a young professional.

352
00:29:36.059 --> 00:29:38.160
She's got a degree, she's training to become a doctor.

353
00:29:38.220 --> 00:29:40.859
Yeah, no, Clive's got a nice car and everything.

354
00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:42.240
Yeah, yeah. quite well off.

355
00:29:42.299 --> 00:29:43.319
They're quite well off.

356
00:29:43.380 --> 00:29:56.519
And I do wonder if it's kind of the Peter Davidson Colin Baker kind of transition in that Russell sat down and wrote down all the things Rose wasn't, and that's the character we're going to have.

357
00:29:56.579 --> 00:30:04.380
So instead of having a companion who is in love with the doctor and the doctor's in love with her, will have the companion in love with the doctor, but the doctor's not in love with her.

358
00:30:04.380 --> 00:30:06.660
Bam, that'll be a great idea.

359
00:30:06.720 --> 00:30:11.460
And then they seem to realise around the, around the point of human nature family of blood.

360
00:30:11.579 --> 00:30:13.740
We may have over-gged this slightly.

361
00:30:13.799 --> 00:30:16.440
They do start walking it back, I think.

362
00:30:16.500 --> 00:30:24.599
Because I was pitying at that point for being stuck in that situation and it's like, this has been done successfully, but was it a clever thing to do?

363
00:30:24.660 --> 00:30:25.200
Yeah.

364
00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:38.160
I mean, you're still having a companion in relation to her love, she's defined by her love for the doctor, which is, again, I think a good way to have gone opposite rose is to have someone who, you know, like Donna, who has no interest at all in love with a doctor apart from as a mate.

365
00:30:38.220 --> 00:30:39.180
Yeah, yeah.

366
00:30:39.240 --> 00:30:39.960
Yeah, yeah.

367
00:30:40.019 --> 00:30:48.900
I think they're still enamoured with the idea that they have someone sexy like David Tennant in the role for the 1st time and they just don't want to waste it or something.

368
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:55.380
Yeah, and they've realised the British population are in love with David Tennant, so why on earth wouldn't Martha be?

369
00:30:55.680 --> 00:31:01.019
And even, you know, in a few weeks time, Tish is going to be quite taken with him as well.

370
00:31:01.079 --> 00:31:04.740
You know, she's going to pass a comment on how attractive he is.

371
00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:10.500
So it's almost Austin Powers-ish, you know, these women being attracted to the doctor.

372
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:22.440
Like, you know, he walks into a room, being a giant string beam with ridiculous hair, and a Dick Van Dyke cockney accent, and a nice suit, and I wondered where that was going.

373
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:26.519
And all the women just fall over.

374
00:31:26.579 --> 00:31:27.299
And you're right.

375
00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:29.460
I think when Catherine Tate arrives on the scene.

376
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:32.640
That why it's so refreshing that she's just like, okay, you get a paper cut.

377
00:31:32.700 --> 00:31:39.000
Oh, no, and they are, I mean, they're definitely kind of walking it back in partners in crime.

378
00:31:39.059 --> 00:31:45.420
They absolutely have that scene which is just the message to the audience that we're not doing that schmoopy love stuff anymore.

379
00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:46.380
Yeah.

380
00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:47.339
Yeah.

381
00:31:47.339 --> 00:31:49.140
I really cheer that.

382
00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:49.740
Yeah, yeah.

383
00:31:49.799 --> 00:32:00.180
I mean, the thing is, I suppose my defining attitude towards Martha is I adore her in spite of the romance, not because of it.

384
00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:03.660
Yeah, and her moments of brilliance are absolutely brilliant.

385
00:32:03.720 --> 00:32:12.599
I think that when she says, oh, there's 14 lines in a sonnet, that really pings out as one of the cleverest cues in the whole thing to the point where I almost wish that was the big discovery.

386
00:32:12.660 --> 00:32:13.440
Yeah, yeah.

387
00:32:13.500 --> 00:32:23.519
Yeah, I just swapped the unrequited love bed scene for Marfa hitting the books and then going, 49's in a sonnet. bang, you know, that would have been, that's my money's worth right there.

388
00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:36.059
I also really adore the way that she reacts to Shakespeare as well, you know, and it starts with that sort of weird thing where it could go either way because he's being kind of, you know, a bit racist or whatever.

389
00:32:36.119 --> 00:32:41.880
But the way that she reacts to it with just the kind of rye amusement.

390
00:32:41.940 --> 00:32:46.319
And she's sort of, you know, she's sort of flattered and stuff like that.

391
00:32:46.380 --> 00:32:50.039
But here's someone that she isn't bowled over by.

392
00:32:50.099 --> 00:32:53.400
Yeah, it's taking it in a stride, isn't it?

393
00:32:53.460 --> 00:32:53.700
Yeah.

394
00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:57.839
Yeah, yeah, respectful of, but not awed by.

395
00:32:57.900 --> 00:33:00.059
She's amused by it in a way, I think.

396
00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:04.619
And her acting his kiss at the end saying, by the way, mate, no fancy breasting.

397
00:33:04.680 --> 00:33:06.180
Yeah, I mean, that's what...

398
00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:11.519
It's lovely to see a story where she doesn't, in the same story where she goes, actually, no, not my type, but that's great.

399
00:33:11.640 --> 00:33:12.420
Yeah.

400
00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:21.180
And, you know, in an early draft, she does kiss him and the doctor interrupts, but again is totally oblivious to, you know, what is this?

401
00:33:21.240 --> 00:33:36.059
And yeah, I'm so glad, as you say, comrade, that they didn't go for her kissing Shakespeare, you know, because she she, there is someone that she's going to kiss later on in this season that feels a lot more appropriate for that, for that moment.

402
00:33:36.119 --> 00:33:47.640
But yeah, here it just wouldn't, it wouldn't quite have felt right because we do establish, and I believe there is some historical evidence for that Shakespeare liked the ladies, you know?

403
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:51.240
Well, it's back 57 academics, isn't it?

404
00:33:51.539 --> 00:33:54.900
You know, I don't like that 57 academics comment.

405
00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:59.940
That really, I keep thinking about that, and that, who is he saying it to?

406
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:02.220
What 57 academics?

407
00:34:02.279 --> 00:34:07.319
Is that actually in there with Merry Christmas to all of you at home?

408
00:34:07.319 --> 00:34:09.900
Because he is, it can only be the people at home.

409
00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:11.519
Yeah, yeah.

410
00:34:11.579 --> 00:34:13.800
It's not just an aside.

411
00:34:13.860 --> 00:34:18.420
He's specifically referring to the way the audience must be reacting to having seen that line of dialogue.

412
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:19.199
There's no other.

413
00:34:19.260 --> 00:34:20.219
Yeah.

414
00:34:20.219 --> 00:34:21.000
Yeah.

415
00:34:21.059 --> 00:34:40.800
And the theory that Shakespeare may have been what we would call these days bisexual, um, comes down to there's a series of sonnets that scholars argue whether they are dedicated to a woman or whether they're dedicated to a young man.

416
00:34:40.920 --> 00:34:42.300
Mr. WH all happiness.

417
00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:47.159
That's the that's at the front of the sonnets, and shall I compare thee to a summer's day is written to a young man?

418
00:34:47.219 --> 00:34:59.280
Oh, but oh, well, I thought, shall I compare these to a Summer's Day was part of the Dark Lady series. which is why the doctor reacts the way he does. when Shakespeare starts spouting that off.

419
00:34:59.340 --> 00:35:02.699
The doctor's like, 0 my god, these poems are about Martha.

420
00:35:03.960 --> 00:35:13.800
I have to say that I think that the treatment of actual kind of Shakespeare's kind of talent and writing is super annoying.

421
00:35:13.860 --> 00:35:15.119
All right.

422
00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:15.659
Yeah.

423
00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:27.000
And it's partly that sort of, you know, like I kind of I'm on board with the idea that he's sort of superhumanly kind of sensitive to the way other people are feeling and that he's sort of very intelligent and stuff.

424
00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:33.539
But just this sort of, he's a great towering genius, the like of which has never been seen.

425
00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:37.199
I think it's just part of that English heritage theme park approach.

426
00:35:37.500 --> 00:35:40.500
It's key stage 4 curriculum as well.

427
00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:48.900
Just for God's sake, if they've heard of one playwright. try and make sure they've heard of Shakespeare and they just build him up and build him up and build him up to try and make sure he gets remembered.

428
00:35:48.960 --> 00:35:50.760
Yeah, and I'm calling him the one true genius.

429
00:35:51.059 --> 00:35:55.139
I mean, it's just not true in any way, but always had the right words in the right movie.

430
00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:56.400
He absolutely didn't.

431
00:35:56.460 --> 00:35:58.860
You know, he co-wrote these plays with people.

432
00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:12.780
There's a great book which I will sort of linked to at the end, but Emma Smith, who is the professor of Shakespeare studies at Oxford, has just released a fantastic book called This is Shakespeare, which just cuts through and breaks down all of this sort of mystique around him.

433
00:36:12.840 --> 00:36:27.239
And she says the most over, if there's one thing, Shakespeare, when an overriding quality of Shakespeare, in his work, it's his gappiness, the inconsistencies, the ambiguity, the incompleteness, that's, she argues that that's what makes him interesting.

434
00:36:27.300 --> 00:36:28.500
That's what makes it accessible.

435
00:36:28.559 --> 00:36:29.639
This stuff isn't finished.

436
00:36:29.699 --> 00:36:30.420
It isn't perfect.

437
00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:34.380
It raises far more questions and it answers and it's deeply imperfect.

438
00:36:34.440 --> 00:36:41.099
So, but what's interesting is, as I agree with Nathan, I think this sort of Shakespeare is, wow, he's the best, he's the great.

439
00:36:41.159 --> 00:36:45.599
Again, that's a really speedy tourist guide way through it.

440
00:36:45.659 --> 00:36:52.559
But I also think it's quite interesting because the doctor and Shakespeare in this are often complimenting each other on who's the genius.

441
00:36:52.619 --> 00:36:57.480
And I'm never quite sure whether this, whether we're supposed to leave with the doctors sort of applauding him going, wow, you're the one.

442
00:36:57.539 --> 00:37:02.639
You're the genius, and then frequently Shakespeare's saying to him again, wow, doctor, I thought I was clever.

443
00:37:02.699 --> 00:37:03.480
You are the one.

444
00:37:03.539 --> 00:37:06.659
They can't really decide who the one true genius is.

445
00:37:06.719 --> 00:37:08.639
The answer is it's neither of them.

446
00:37:10.139 --> 00:37:28.079
I think, and and just the nicest, just neatest summary I could give you from this book, Emma Smith wrote, was that she personally sees somewhere straight as Shakespeare that you could have a drink and a good conversation with rather than someone you should bow down before, and I feel the same about Shakespeare and the doctor.

447
00:37:34.139 --> 00:37:35.639
Certainly, as well.

448
00:37:35.699 --> 00:37:44.159
There's really not, you know, there are nods to the things that people know about Shakespeare, you know, the famous lines and all of that.

449
00:37:44.219 --> 00:37:54.780
It's almost like he's been sort of quote mining Shakespeare or gone to the sort of Shakespeare desk calendar and sort of picked the things that, you know, that everyone remembers.

450
00:37:54.840 --> 00:38:00.239
And I think when we see some dialogue from Love's Labours won.

451
00:38:00.300 --> 00:38:01.739
It's terrible.

452
00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:04.920
Like it's shockingly bad.

453
00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:09.059
Can I just say about Love's Labour's Lost, though.

454
00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:10.559
The actual play.

455
00:38:10.619 --> 00:38:15.719
It's it's not. terribly highly regarded in Shakespeare's works.

456
00:38:15.780 --> 00:38:17.460
It's actually a favourite of mine.

457
00:38:18.179 --> 00:38:23.039
So I really enjoyed that episode for this reason.

458
00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:28.440
But yeah, even there, some of the dialogue in it is quite clunky.

459
00:38:28.500 --> 00:38:35.940
It's kind of a, it's like Shakespeare wrote a carry-on. is what loves Labour's Lost is.

460
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:36.840
In in...

461
00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:38.699
Having lost things in my head by now.

462
00:38:39.960 --> 00:38:45.840
But, you know, in terms of tone, it's quite similar to 12th night except for the ending.

463
00:38:46.679 --> 00:38:50.880
So, yeah, the ending of 12th night, of course.

464
00:38:50.940 --> 00:39:19.800
Spoiler alert, um, has Malvolio turn up and say, I'm going to get revenge on all you naughty people for having me locked up in a mental asylum, whereas Love's Labours one ends with, um, so for those for those listeners who don't know the plot, you've got the King of Navarre and his 3 lords, and they decide they're going to swear off women, so they can study and better themselves.

465
00:39:19.860 --> 00:39:31.679
And just as they do that, the princess of France turns up with her 3 ladies in waiting and the play revolves around all 4 of each side couple up and try and hide their relationship from the other three.

466
00:39:31.739 --> 00:39:58.920
And the play then ends with, you know, a big dance, the guys get the girls, but then there's a message, the king of France is ill, and the princess must go home, and that's where the sequel would pick up, and we have the actor, Dick, who is meant to be Richard Burbage, walk onto stage and say, you know, when we last left our fair lovers in the kingdom of Navarre, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

467
00:39:59.159 --> 00:40:02.099
There is a Love Zipers one, though.

468
00:40:02.159 --> 00:40:06.239
Like it's mentioned in a list of Shakespeare's plays by someone.

469
00:40:07.139 --> 00:40:10.199
If Google hasn't lied to me.

470
00:40:10.260 --> 00:40:11.940
No, that is that is true.

471
00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:12.599
Yeah.

472
00:40:12.599 --> 00:40:13.260
Yeah.

473
00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:16.800
And I think calling the sequel, Love's Labour's one, that was just asking for trouble.

474
00:40:16.860 --> 00:40:19.980
I presume there was a Love Labours 2, which would be the 3rd one.

475
00:40:20.039 --> 00:40:22.980
Loves Labour's Tokyo Drift.

476
00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:34.860
Everyone just got really annoyed and been there, which I think is the, is the explanation that certain theatrical types might believe is, even if Shakespeare even existed.

477
00:40:35.639 --> 00:40:38.280
That loves Labor's one.

478
00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:45.960
Love's Labour's one was the working title for this, which wouldn't have worked on any level, especially not martyrs.

479
00:40:46.019 --> 00:40:46.619
No, yeah.

480
00:40:46.679 --> 00:40:49.559
Yeah, nobody wins any labours of love in it.

481
00:40:49.619 --> 00:40:50.400
That's good point.

482
00:40:50.460 --> 00:40:51.900
I think Shakespeare code is a good.

483
00:40:51.960 --> 00:40:53.699
Again, that's a really good...

484
00:40:53.820 --> 00:40:55.619
I mean, the Kath and Kim code was massive.

485
00:40:55.679 --> 00:40:57.300
It was great.

486
00:40:57.360 --> 00:40:59.579
Picking up on just a year later.

487
00:40:59.639 --> 00:41:01.380
Yeah, it's unusual.

488
00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:02.579
Unusual.

489
00:41:02.579 --> 00:41:04.199
Australian podcast.

490
00:41:04.260 --> 00:41:04.739
Jeez.

491
00:41:04.739 --> 00:41:05.699
That was great.

492
00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:07.440
You sound more Australian than I do.

493
00:41:08.219 --> 00:41:15.000
Yeah, the other working title for this, when they decided not to do Love's Labours one as a title.

494
00:41:15.059 --> 00:41:19.440
And it was never serious, but it was just, you know, we need another title right now.

495
00:41:19.500 --> 00:41:20.579
Theatre of Doom.

496
00:41:21.780 --> 00:41:23.400
I love that.

497
00:41:23.460 --> 00:41:28.260
You know, what else can you expect from the co-writer of the one doctor and bang, bang, boom.

498
00:41:44.159 --> 00:41:50.280
Magic and witches, uh, carry on ites, uh, which is not...

499
00:41:50.280 --> 00:41:53.280
That would be a fun story.

500
00:41:53.340 --> 00:41:58.380
But, yeah, well, we've talked for quite a long time without actually mentioning the plot yet.

501
00:41:58.440 --> 00:42:08.760
Does that say something for the importance of the plot to this particular episode that it's almost, uh, not my afterthoughts being unkind, but it's so much about here.

502
00:42:08.820 --> 00:42:09.900
We are doing Shakespeare.

503
00:42:09.960 --> 00:42:11.340
Like, oh, and there's some evil witches.

504
00:42:11.400 --> 00:42:13.380
Is the plant, they have a bit of a dance.

505
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:15.659
It's all as funny and thought provoking as usual.

506
00:42:15.719 --> 00:42:17.579
That's basically it, isn't it?

507
00:42:17.639 --> 00:42:18.480
Pretty much.

508
00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:22.260
Yeah, I have to say, you know, that is the line.

509
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:26.579
Like, it's, they have a bit of a dance, you know, it's always thought provoking as usual.

510
00:42:26.639 --> 00:42:46.739
That is the line, getting back to what you guys were saying earlier, about how Shakespeare is elevated to this sort of deity of literature when, by modern standards, he was riding EastEnders, and there is nothing wrong with EastEnders, but he wasn't in his time writing something incredibly highbrow.

511
00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:48.840
He was writing populist fiction.

512
00:42:48.960 --> 00:42:54.179
You know, and that line is what brings home, you know, to Shakespeare.

513
00:42:54.239 --> 00:42:55.679
These are just words.

514
00:42:55.739 --> 00:43:04.860
He he thinks he's clever and he believes he's clever, but he doesn't believe that he's right, you know, he's writing the best thing that ever lived.

515
00:43:04.920 --> 00:43:13.860
Yeah, and I'm kind of glad that they didn't bring him forward to the present day and take him around a gift shop to show him how wonderfully he'll be remembered.

516
00:43:15.179 --> 00:43:20.940
I know that there's always a temptation to do that and that's a bit too knowing for me.

517
00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:26.940
Yeah, it worked in Vincent and the doctor, but yeah, I think here or even on Quiet Dead.

518
00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:29.340
It just would have been, you know, pointless.

519
00:43:29.400 --> 00:43:37.920
Yeah, and you can have all the feelings about this person and their legacy by just seeing them in full flow and doing it.

520
00:43:37.980 --> 00:43:46.860
I don't necessarily need to be to have them dragged into the present day to know that, but that's fun too, of course, but yeah, and it's interesting.

521
00:43:46.920 --> 00:43:51.599
It's good that they picked Shakespeare at a point where he's absolutely at the height of his powers. and his popularity.

522
00:43:51.659 --> 00:44:02.340
So the doctor and him doing the jokey bit about doing quotes of each other, works without it being sort of anachronistically patronising to him.

523
00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:12.539
Whereas, for example, H.G. Wells, was apparently a complete bumbling idiot until he got to see the wonders of Carful and was given all those ideas to put in all his books.

524
00:44:14.039 --> 00:44:16.320
Now, talk about Dog 2 titles.

525
00:44:17.699 --> 00:44:19.980
My time does have coughed.

526
00:44:20.039 --> 00:44:24.900
My timelash sequel is called the cover, what you wish for, and it's coming to big finish.

527
00:44:24.900 --> 00:44:26.820
Okay, I want that.

528
00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:29.340
So be careful what you wish for.

529
00:44:29.400 --> 00:44:30.960
Be careful what you wish for.

530
00:44:31.019 --> 00:44:32.340
Be careful what you wish for.

531
00:44:32.400 --> 00:44:33.840
There you go, it's a box set.

532
00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:38.039
With Anna Hope's novice haim.

533
00:44:39.719 --> 00:44:41.159
Wow.

534
00:44:43.260 --> 00:44:46.320
Actually, Danny Dyer is the borat.

535
00:44:46.380 --> 00:44:47.579
I'm really...

536
00:44:49.920 --> 00:44:56.039
You know, I have to say my favourite quote is the Sicorax one, which I think is sort of terribly good.

537
00:44:56.099 --> 00:44:56.820
Yeah, yeah.

538
00:44:56.880 --> 00:44:58.079
This reminds me of a sicker act.

539
00:44:58.139 --> 00:45:01.139
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that he goes back and uses that in The Tempest.

540
00:45:01.199 --> 00:45:01.920
Yes.

541
00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:02.460
There you go.

542
00:45:02.519 --> 00:45:04.800
I've been trying to think about the Carrionites.

543
00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:08.099
I'm just trying to get my head around what I think of them.

544
00:45:08.159 --> 00:45:10.019
I think when I 1st remember this episode.

545
00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:12.179
I was like, nah, fairly generic witches.

546
00:45:12.179 --> 00:45:15.360
And the monsters, I didn't quite quite get there.

547
00:45:15.360 --> 00:45:19.559
And I've been, I think I've revised it seeing it since because I actually really enjoyed.

548
00:45:19.619 --> 00:45:22.079
I really enjoyed Christina Cole as Lilith.

549
00:45:22.139 --> 00:45:28.440
I think she did a fantastic job of doing both parts, incredibly well, and they all did through these huge masks.

550
00:45:28.500 --> 00:45:30.780
I think, you know, the performances of the witches are great.

551
00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:35.760
But as monsters, they didn't quite grab me and I like a monster.

552
00:45:35.820 --> 00:45:38.039
And when they mentioned that cicarette line.

553
00:45:38.099 --> 00:45:41.820
And later on, Lilith said it's all blood and magic.

554
00:45:41.820 --> 00:45:45.360
I thought, oh, this, in another life, this could have been a Sicorax story.

555
00:45:45.599 --> 00:45:47.400
I would have loved that.

556
00:45:47.460 --> 00:45:54.179
I'd love to see the full part version of this, because I think here we get episode one and then episode four of a four-parter.

557
00:45:54.179 --> 00:45:59.760
All of the stuff in the middle about, there's a lovely line about them having been banished by the Eternals.

558
00:45:59.820 --> 00:46:02.400
So it was actually Linda Barron, who...

559
00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:04.380
Steinline.

560
00:46:04.380 --> 00:46:06.059
And I want to see that too, big finish.

561
00:46:06.119 --> 00:46:07.679
I want to see that on stage.

562
00:46:07.739 --> 00:46:08.579
That was on pick.

563
00:46:08.639 --> 00:46:09.659
Yeah.

564
00:46:09.719 --> 00:46:13.800
Um, and um, can you have your hands on your hips and your legs akimbo at the same time?

565
00:46:13.860 --> 00:46:15.300
Oh, yeah. sure you can.

566
00:46:15.539 --> 00:46:17.460
Obligatory.

567
00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:19.079
What was it going?

568
00:46:19.139 --> 00:46:19.500
Oh, yeah.

569
00:46:19.559 --> 00:46:21.840
So, yeah, all that filling in. you know, so here we are.

570
00:46:21.900 --> 00:46:27.119
We're just some witches And it's taken Doctor Who a hell of a long time to do some actual chromie witches, hasn't it?

571
00:46:27.179 --> 00:46:32.940
We've had the fantastic Miss Hawthorne, but in a completely different genre.

572
00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:38.820
But this is the 1st time we've had evil cackling, witches in Doctor Who, brackets, but actually it's science.

573
00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:50.760
Um, and I don't know, is that because I think, I don't know, maybe in the past, they were seen as being too much of a baddie from a kiddies show and let's not go there or just there's no way that you could dress this up as science.

574
00:46:50.820 --> 00:46:52.920
They don't really dress it up as science, do they?

575
00:46:52.980 --> 00:46:53.579
Not much.

576
00:46:53.639 --> 00:46:54.780
Absolutely not.

577
00:46:54.840 --> 00:46:55.440
No, no, no.

578
00:46:55.500 --> 00:46:56.400
It doesn't...

579
00:46:56.460 --> 00:47:01.260
I mean, when you describe sort of science of affecting the world through the use of words.

580
00:47:01.320 --> 00:47:04.679
I mean, that's magic, you know..

581
00:47:04.739 --> 00:47:06.059
Yeah, yeah, but that's magic as well.

582
00:47:06.119 --> 00:47:18.000
I mean, you know, those things are magic and Doctor Who has always done magic and always kind of papered over it with a few badly chosen words of techno babble, and this continues that great tradition, I think.

583
00:47:18.119 --> 00:47:22.980
Yeah, it's a bit like in the Damons where the doctor says, no, no, it's not magic.

584
00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:27.960
It's a clever building of psionic energy in order to revive a thing that looks like the devil.

585
00:47:28.019 --> 00:47:29.519
Miss Hawthorne says, that's magic.

586
00:47:29.579 --> 00:47:30.000
Yeah, no.

587
00:47:30.059 --> 00:47:30.599
Well, she's right.

588
00:47:30.659 --> 00:47:31.380
She's right.

589
00:47:31.500 --> 00:47:40.500
And it is psychic energy, which is a thing, but of course that's magical and there's some sort of hint towards them being terribly old.

590
00:47:40.559 --> 00:47:43.139
So perhaps the normal rules don't apply or whatever.

591
00:47:43.559 --> 00:47:49.019
But they are sort of kids TV show Witches.

592
00:47:49.079 --> 00:47:51.119
And that's absolutely not a criticism.

593
00:47:51.179 --> 00:48:04.320
Yeah, again, it comes back to something, you were saying earlier, Pete, about the speed of production means if you're going to have witches, they have to look like stereotypical witches.

594
00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:15.960
I think their thought is, at the same time, if you're going to hire Christina Cole, then you're going to have her sometimes looking like Christina Collins, sometimes looking like the stereotypical witch.

595
00:48:16.019 --> 00:48:20.460
So... get it on screen Yeah, yeah, we pay.

596
00:48:20.519 --> 00:48:21.480
Yeah, we paid for that face.

597
00:48:21.539 --> 00:48:22.320
Get it on screen.

598
00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:27.480
I mean, yeah, and if it was a longer story, that'd probably be a reveal or something, you know.

599
00:48:27.480 --> 00:48:29.699
You know, I almost never wanted to be a longer story.

600
00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:33.179
I'm kind of done with it after 42 minutes, I have to say.

601
00:48:33.239 --> 00:48:34.380
Yeah, that's true.

602
00:48:34.440 --> 00:48:38.219
Yeah, then we'd all be sitting around saying cut it back to 2 episodes and it would be much snappier.

603
00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:40.380
I mean, that's the thing.

604
00:48:40.440 --> 00:48:48.659
I feel this is one story that, um, and possibly because I watched this back-to-back with gridlock this week.

605
00:48:48.719 --> 00:49:01.500
This feels very lightweight, and I'm not saying that as a pejorative, I think it's a matter of it sets out with a very clear intention of we're going to tell a story with Shakespeare and some witches and it achieves it.

606
00:49:01.559 --> 00:49:03.420
Yeah, it's gonna be a romp.

607
00:49:03.480 --> 00:49:04.739
It's going to be a romp.

608
00:49:04.860 --> 00:49:06.960
It doesn't, because it goes at such speed.

609
00:49:07.019 --> 00:49:14.760
It doesn't stand up to scrutiny, that 1st locations that I mentioned being, oddly, they should have just left it where actually this went, right, we dress things and they sort of turn it into a set.

610
00:49:14.820 --> 00:49:29.880
And similarly, and this is a tiny, tiny, uh, niggle at why you, it probably doesn't really bear up to too many rewatchings or too much scrutiny, but the one thing that really bugs me, the witches costumes, you would sort of imagine, oh, they wore rags.

611
00:49:29.940 --> 00:49:32.820
But if you actually look at them, they are perfectly cut out.

612
00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:41.039
They're all wearing identical. perfectly cut out feathered things that have no purpose other than to look like witches right.

613
00:49:41.099 --> 00:49:42.599
They are Halloween costume.

614
00:49:42.659 --> 00:49:44.760
And it's like rags aren't that hard to make.

615
00:49:44.820 --> 00:49:46.139
You know, you can...

616
00:49:46.199 --> 00:50:02.460
But again, I think it's just, I don't want to sound critical, but I just think because it's going at such speed, I think they just go, right, witches costumes, bam, and it's this, I think generic is an interesting the genericness of the witches and the genericness of the streets and the genericness of a rock and roll Shakespeare.

617
00:50:02.519 --> 00:50:07.920
They're all very, very, it's just, it's just all done for speed and I think there's nothing wrong with that.

618
00:50:07.980 --> 00:50:11.639
I think when we 1st see the Tardar scene at the beginning, they're zooming around.

619
00:50:11.699 --> 00:50:12.539
She's like, how does this work?

620
00:50:12.599 --> 00:50:14.039
He goes, it doesn't matter. lets get out of here.

621
00:50:14.099 --> 00:50:19.260
And they, by the time they leave, they're leaving faster than the speed of the, you know, of an arrow.

622
00:50:19.320 --> 00:50:20.760
It's incredibly fast.

623
00:50:20.820 --> 00:50:22.559
Sorry, to keep going back to it.

624
00:50:22.619 --> 00:50:24.719
But that little detail really bugged me.

625
00:50:24.780 --> 00:50:26.820
I was like, did you not...

626
00:50:26.880 --> 00:50:36.300
Well, wasn't wasn't this the most expensive episode to date when it was made, I think, partly because of all the night shooting and getting down to London's the globe.

627
00:50:36.420 --> 00:50:41.280
But and then Northern Night Shooting in Warwick and then a hell of a lot of CGI as well.

628
00:50:41.400 --> 00:50:46.199
So for an episode that's not a big, you know, it's not a bookend episode.

629
00:50:46.260 --> 00:50:48.659
They did certainly push the boat out on it.

630
00:50:48.719 --> 00:50:51.539
I mean, as you say, maybe two, maybe more than they needed to.

631
00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:53.639
Yes, sometimes like, actually, you've got everything here.

632
00:50:53.699 --> 00:50:54.480
You can just use it.

633
00:50:54.539 --> 00:51:01.380
And I think the last one of these points are going to make is it's the actual globe itself, they do a brilliant job of recreating.

634
00:51:01.440 --> 00:51:06.599
I mean, I think the fact that they get 50 sporting artists and make them into 1500 is brilliant.

635
00:51:06.659 --> 00:51:10.019
But I was like, I just wish if they'd had a little more time.

636
00:51:10.139 --> 00:51:23.820
The globe is a 360 degree space and I would have loved it if they could have just got a handheld, gone through the door and given a 360, I feel they could have done that with a bit more time because it's fully there.

637
00:51:23.940 --> 00:51:26.340
Again, I just feel like I'm niggling.

638
00:51:26.460 --> 00:51:35.340
But if there was more time or if they were going to do this in a different way, there's just a more settled, grounded, real, realer version of this story there, for another day, maybe.

639
00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:35.699
Yeah.

640
00:51:38.880 --> 00:51:43.079
What did the Carrionites do to the people that they get?

641
00:51:43.139 --> 00:51:45.480
Are they actually eating them?

642
00:51:45.539 --> 00:51:47.219
Are they what is?

643
00:51:47.340 --> 00:51:51.480
I was listening very, very carefully to the noise, like to the sound in the opening scene.

644
00:51:51.599 --> 00:51:53.219
We may attack Wiggins, yeah.

645
00:51:53.280 --> 00:51:53.699
Yeah, yeah.

646
00:51:53.820 --> 00:51:57.000
And it does sound awfully like sort of popping bones and things.

647
00:51:57.059 --> 00:52:00.840
I think they're, you know, they're probably ripping them apart and eating them.

648
00:52:00.900 --> 00:52:04.739
I do wonder if it's for their DNA replication modules.

649
00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:07.260
Well, you can just chop some hair.

650
00:52:07.380 --> 00:52:09.300
You know, you don't have to eat a whole person.

651
00:52:09.360 --> 00:52:13.079
And then who are you going to do your voodoo on if you've eaten them?

652
00:52:13.139 --> 00:52:15.179
And it's not like they have floss.

653
00:52:16.980 --> 00:52:24.000
I just thought perhaps, you know, as with all these ancient creatures from the ancient dawn of time, perhaps they've all got the Fenrick lean.

654
00:52:24.059 --> 00:52:29.219
You know, you can lean over somebody and you can really give them a nasty lean. leaner.

655
00:52:30.179 --> 00:52:34.320
That was all sort out.

656
00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:34.920
A soldier.

657
00:52:34.980 --> 00:52:35.699
What a way to go.

658
00:52:35.760 --> 00:52:36.659
What a way to go.

659
00:52:36.719 --> 00:52:37.500
I don't mean.

660
00:52:37.679 --> 00:52:49.559
And I read somewhere that there was a decision fairly early on, they were considering going with the fairies from Midsummer Night's Dreamers being the baddies, doing magic on you, you know, and doing magical tricks and things on you.

661
00:52:49.619 --> 00:52:56.579
And then they decided that, oh, let's do witches, which is a more fun, or possibly just more inherently a bit more spooky.

662
00:52:56.639 --> 00:52:59.039
But so that was on the cards at one point.

663
00:52:59.099 --> 00:53:03.420
And it would have been another choice would have been, you know, there are witches in a Shakespeare play.

664
00:53:03.480 --> 00:53:15.840
There is, you know, there's there's an argument to say that the monsters or the threat could come out of an actual play and certainly in The Tempest and also Henry V, they conjure up storms.

665
00:53:15.900 --> 00:53:17.880
You know, a character conjures up a storm during it.

666
00:53:17.940 --> 00:53:27.420
So again, there's just another, there's a 1000000 ways of telling doctor 2 stories, but in another, in another world, there's one where they just use what's really there, you could use the real Shakespeare play.

667
00:53:27.480 --> 00:53:28.739
You could use all around the globe.

668
00:53:28.800 --> 00:53:31.440
You could use a real location, you could use real racks.

669
00:53:31.440 --> 00:53:37.559
There's another authentic way of doing this, but I think like the witches, they're not trying to do an authentic version.

670
00:53:37.619 --> 00:53:39.480
They're trying to do a lovely tour.

671
00:53:39.539 --> 00:53:43.199
Give Martha and the audience a tourist experience of a whistle stop tour.

672
00:53:43.260 --> 00:53:45.480
That's what I kept coming back to, I think.

673
00:54:13.800 --> 00:54:17.219
Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week.

674
00:54:17.280 --> 00:54:21.840
We'll be back next week for a quick drive over to new New Brooklyn in gridlock.

675
00:54:21.900 --> 00:54:31.980
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us at flightsthroughentirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and at FTE podcast on Twitter.

676
00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:47.820
You can also find our series 11 flashcast, Jody Interterra, at Jody Interterra.com, and at Jody Interterra on Twitter, and our James Bond commentary podcast, bondfinger at bondfinger.com, at bondfinger on Facebook, and at bondfingercast on Twitter.

677
00:54:47.880 --> 00:54:50.340
Where can people find you, Pete?

678
00:54:50.400 --> 00:54:52.860
I'm on Twitter as well.

679
00:54:52.980 --> 00:54:58.619
My name there is very Pete Lambert, and the handle is Prof underscore quite a mess.

680
00:54:58.679 --> 00:54:59.639
Brilliant.

681
00:54:59.699 --> 00:55:03.420
And we'll put the link up, obviously, in the show notes, and Conrad, where can people find you?

682
00:55:03.480 --> 00:55:06.840
Yeah, I'm on Twitter at Hair of the Hound. underscore.

683
00:55:06.900 --> 00:55:15.179
And I also just wanted to recommend this book by Emma Smith called This is Shakespeare, which is a good digestible, no nonsense guide to Shakespeare.

684
00:55:15.239 --> 00:55:17.159
Also, I think it's worth saying.

685
00:55:17.219 --> 00:55:26.699
I would also like to link to Julian and Sandy's boner bookshop, which is One of the best treatments of Shakespeare I've ever heard.

686
00:55:26.760 --> 00:55:28.380
I forgot to do mine.

687
00:55:28.500 --> 00:55:43.559
And I picked it deliberately to make me seem clever, so I'm going to, it's, but it is a really good, she's written an academic called Miranda Kaufmann has written a really good book called Black Tudors, The Untold Story, and it's like short biographies of 10 people who actually has tracked and covering everything.

688
00:55:43.619 --> 00:55:48.360
There's musicians, there's sailors, someone who went off on cap with Captain Cook's voyage and things like that.

689
00:55:48.360 --> 00:55:52.980
And it's a real eye opener about how the world was divided up on very different lines in those days.

690
00:55:53.039 --> 00:55:54.659
Brilliant.

691
00:55:54.719 --> 00:55:55.019
Awesome.

692
00:55:55.079 --> 00:55:56.760
We'll put links to those in the show notes.

693
00:55:56.820 --> 00:56:00.059
And thank you very much for joining us, both of you tonight.

694
00:56:00.119 --> 00:56:00.719
Thank you, chaps.

695
00:56:00.780 --> 00:56:03.539
Thank you, and thanks to James and Todd for letting us understudy.

696
00:56:03.599 --> 00:56:05.039
Yeah, you can let them out of that.

697
00:56:07.739 --> 00:56:09.239
Quiet.

698
00:56:09.659 --> 00:56:16.619
Until next time, what heaven more will that thee may furnish and my prayers pluck down fall on thy head.

699
00:56:16.679 --> 00:56:17.880
Farewell.

700
00:56:17.940 --> 00:56:20.460
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

701
00:56:20.519 --> 00:56:21.420
Good night.

702
00:56:21.480 --> 00:56:22.320
Good night.

703
00:56:22.380 --> 00:56:22.739
Good night.

704
00:56:25.920 --> 00:56:31.800
That was Flight 3 Entirety, starring Nathan Bodley, Brendan Jones, Pete Lambert and Conrad Westmers.

705
00:56:31.860 --> 00:56:35.460
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Stringth Performance by Jane Orberg.

706
00:56:35.519 --> 00:56:41.519
This episode, it's neither of them, was recorded on the 4th of August 2019 and released on the 22nd of September.

707
00:56:44.579 --> 00:56:56.159
If, like Brendan, you would like to see attack of the grass released on DVD, and of course you would, please keep an eye on our Twitter feed for details of our upcoming nighttime protest march on number 13 Bannerman Road, Ealing.

708
00:56:56.219 --> 00:56:57.719
Or is it number 21?

709
00:56:58.619 --> 00:57:04.260
Yeah, I wonder whether we, that's a really strong comment to end it on.

710
00:57:04.260 --> 00:57:05.639
To hit the Tartar song, yeah.

711
00:57:05.699 --> 00:57:07.320
I think that's probably it then.

712
00:57:07.380 --> 00:57:08.159
Yeah.

713
00:57:08.219 --> 00:57:09.840
Do we need to talk about the end?

714
00:57:09.900 --> 00:57:10.619
It's terribly boring.

715
00:57:10.739 --> 00:57:15.480
Oh, well, no, you know, we've, yeah, they all get sucked into the thing.

716
00:57:15.539 --> 00:57:16.860
Yeah.

717
00:57:16.860 --> 00:57:20.219
I love the applause at the end from the audience.

718
00:57:20.280 --> 00:57:24.599
It's a bit well, it is very 4th wallbreaker, but at the same time, it's like, that's nice.

719
00:57:24.659 --> 00:57:25.860
It's a really great moment.

720
00:57:25.920 --> 00:57:35.099
The music stops and the music which had kind of interrupted Carrie Knight's 1st appearance, which kind of bugged me a bit because I really wanted a big monster reveal and the music just, it doesn't really bother the music too much.

721
00:57:35.219 --> 00:57:40.079
I love the fact that music stops and you just hear this one clap.

722
00:57:40.079 --> 00:57:42.420
And it's a, it really feels like the glow.

723
00:57:42.480 --> 00:57:47.760
It's great And Conrad's too modest to mention that he has trod those boards himself, of course.

724
00:57:47.760 --> 00:57:48.360
I have, I did.

725
00:57:48.420 --> 00:57:50.519
I did, I did. year after this was out.

726
00:57:50.579 --> 00:57:55.139
I unbelievably got a gig at Shakespeare's Globe in Romeo and Juliet.

727
00:57:55.199 --> 00:57:58.440
So I've been on that stage and all check, when I watched the, uh, watched it.

728
00:57:58.500 --> 00:58:01.679
I thought they did a really good job of, of, I mean, that's really, really what it looks like.

729
00:58:01.739 --> 00:58:11.460
If you look down, you see the groundlings, as they're called, the people standing up, sort of leaning on the stage, if you look up, and as far left and far right, you can just see people.

730
00:58:11.519 --> 00:58:15.539
That's why they, and they often give it the all to worlds a stage thing.

731
00:58:15.599 --> 00:58:18.840
Your actors are encouraged to use the space as the world.

732
00:58:18.900 --> 00:58:21.059
So when the Carrionites say they're going to take over the world.

733
00:58:21.179 --> 00:58:25.619
That's really nice because the globe was often used as the world here.

734
00:58:25.619 --> 00:58:29.519
When you refer to the heavens, you look up at the sky and you just deal with whatever's there.

735
00:58:29.579 --> 00:58:31.019
So it's lovely that elementals faced.

736
00:58:31.079 --> 00:58:49.260
I was reading the, is it the Henry the 5th chorus, which says this would know and where the chorus comes forward and encourages the audience to regard this building, this very building as a place where, you know, 2 empires are fighting, well, not 2 empires, 2 kingdoms are fighting over something.

737
00:58:49.320 --> 00:58:51.599
You know, this is the whole world.

738
00:58:51.659 --> 00:58:52.380
Yeah.

739
00:58:53.219 --> 00:58:55.380
Yeah, it is immersive.

740
00:58:55.500 --> 00:58:56.940
You are in you're in this experience.

741
00:58:57.000 --> 00:58:59.280
Who did you play, Conrad?

742
00:58:59.760 --> 00:59:03.480
I gave my Friar Lawrence.

743
00:59:04.199 --> 00:59:05.579
Wow.

744
00:59:05.579 --> 00:59:06.780
Yeah, that's fantastic.

745
00:59:06.840 --> 00:59:07.980
So it was all your fault.

746
00:59:08.760 --> 00:59:10.739
Yes, it was.

747
00:59:10.860 --> 00:59:14.099
So here's some great advice for you.

748
00:59:14.159 --> 00:59:18.780
Me and the nurse...

749
00:59:18.840 --> 00:59:21.119
I did I was quite curious.

750
00:59:21.179 --> 00:59:25.440
I wanted to see how many doctors actors had been on, been at the globe or done Shakespeare.

751
00:59:25.500 --> 00:59:32.699
I had a quick whiz through and Hartnell and Trouton obviously had done tons of Shakespeare, although the actual globe wasn't reconstructed by then.

752
00:59:32.760 --> 00:59:33.539
Are they that old?

753
00:59:33.599 --> 00:59:34.980
Yeah, exactly.

754
00:59:34.980 --> 00:59:37.619
With the original, with the opening production.

755
00:59:37.800 --> 00:59:42.599
And Tom Baker famously gave his Macbeth, which apparently brought the house down, as he likes to say.

756
00:59:42.659 --> 00:59:52.800
Sylvester McCoy, actually, probably has the biggest, one of the biggest, sort of Shakespeare histories as playing a full, playing lots of fools, but particularly uh, uh, with, with, with Kim Lear.

757
00:59:52.860 --> 00:59:54.059
Yeah, Ian McCellen.

758
00:59:54.119 --> 00:59:55.380
But in McCall, I saw that.

759
00:59:55.440 --> 00:59:56.159
I saw it.

760
00:59:56.400 --> 00:59:56.820
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

761
00:59:56.880 --> 01:00:03.000
So I live just up the road from Stratford and get down there quite often to see stuff, Shakespeare stuff.

762
01:00:03.059 --> 01:00:03.480
What's there?

763
01:00:03.539 --> 01:00:09.719
And yeah, he played the spoons a lot, which is not part of the text, but he was good.

764
01:00:09.780 --> 01:00:12.300
He was well cast and they were a good, they were a good pairing.

765
01:00:12.360 --> 01:00:21.119
So, and because the fool is such a tragic character, then, and disappears mysteriously, and they made it less mysterious via the staging.

766
01:00:21.239 --> 01:00:24.599
It was Yeah, it was really good in that.

767
01:00:24.659 --> 01:00:25.800
That did come here.

768
01:00:25.860 --> 01:00:28.199
The 2 of them came here and did it.

769
01:00:28.260 --> 01:00:29.400
Yeah, T went to see it.

770
01:00:29.519 --> 01:00:31.679
No, and I think, is this the story?

771
01:00:31.739 --> 01:00:34.019
Like, and Todd Sylvester.

772
01:00:34.079 --> 01:00:37.320
No, no, like...

773
01:00:37.320 --> 01:00:38.579
One story at a time.

774
01:00:38.639 --> 01:00:44.699
Okay, so Todd, so Todd went to the production here and he may have had to fly to Melbourne to do it or something.

775
01:00:44.760 --> 01:00:45.780
Yes, yes, it was only in Melbourne.

776
01:00:45.840 --> 01:00:51.360
But he was speaking to Sylvester afterwards because Todd used to organise our conventions here and so he knows everyone.

777
01:00:51.420 --> 01:01:05.159
And he asked, I think Sylvester asked him what he thought of Ian McCellen, but at some point, Sylvester said, oh, there was something about McCellen getting naked and Sylvester said he's a big boy, isn't he?

778
01:01:05.280 --> 01:01:11.940
Yeah, well, what happens is there's, I think it's during the blowwind crack your foul cheeks scene.

779
01:01:13.380 --> 01:01:16.260
Which hadn't thought of that.

780
01:01:16.320 --> 01:01:24.719
But, sort of, Lear comes to the front of the stage and he's screaming at the storm and it's meant to be kind of an Adir of his madness.

781
01:01:25.320 --> 01:01:30.780
And the way they decided to do it was McKellen would flop it out.

782
01:01:30.840 --> 01:01:34.320
Well, basically, as he was standing there, his trousers would fall.

783
01:01:34.380 --> 01:01:35.519
Oh, okay.

784
01:01:35.519 --> 01:01:37.500
And the king wouldn't pick them up.

785
01:01:37.559 --> 01:01:39.000
The fool would come in and pick them up.

786
01:01:39.059 --> 01:01:42.239
So Silver's like, every night. and face to face.

787
01:01:43.260 --> 01:01:45.480
With mini Gandolf.

788
01:01:45.539 --> 01:01:54.780
I managed to get front row seats to that and also to see Gisette Simon as Cleopatra, which had a very similar...

789
01:01:54.780 --> 01:01:55.320
Can we touch you?

790
01:01:55.380 --> 01:02:01.920
I, I, I'm almost as closely affiliated to dessert Simon as I am to my own mother.

791
01:02:01.980 --> 01:02:05.099
As a result of the scene where she's getting out of a bath in that.

792
01:02:09.599 --> 01:02:13.980
Yeah, yeah, you really do see some sights.

793
01:02:17.039 --> 01:02:18.000
Oh brilliant.

794
01:02:18.119 --> 01:02:19.739
Okay, I think that's our tag.

795
01:02:19.739 --> 01:02:20.880
Yes, yes.

796
01:02:21.360 --> 01:02:23.699
It's all staying in.

797
01:02:24.960 --> 01:02:28.380
So we're going to do our outro.