WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:25:18 1 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:46.560 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast, the combined theology, literary criticism, and massive computer generated crabs. 2 00:00:46.619 --> 00:00:47.759 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:47.820 --> 00:00:48.539 I'm James. 4 00:00:48.600 --> 00:00:49.439 I'm Brendan. 5 00:00:49.500 --> 00:00:50.460 And I'm Eric. 6 00:00:50.520 --> 00:00:52.200 Well, the air stinks. 7 00:00:52.259 --> 00:00:56.399 We're trapped in a tiny room and we seem to be going round and round in circles. 8 00:00:56.460 --> 00:01:04.799 So either it's just everyday life in a late capitalist society, or we're discussing our next Doctor Who episode, gridlock. 9 00:01:18.540 --> 00:01:21.480 I'm gonna put my cards straight on the table. 10 00:01:21.540 --> 00:01:29.400 This is, for me, one of Russell's best scripts, I think, and possibly my favourite episode. 11 00:01:29.459 --> 00:01:32.819 So I'm desperate for some kind of counterpoint to that. 12 00:01:33.060 --> 00:01:35.040 I think it's really good. 13 00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:38.819 It's another example of Doctor Who. 14 00:01:39.000 --> 00:01:46.379 Using a situation where, you know, you may be able to poke holes in the realism of it, but it's not about the realism of the situation. 15 00:01:46.439 --> 00:01:47.879 It's about what the situation represents. 16 00:01:48.780 --> 00:01:51.599 You're not going to get any disagreement from me. 17 00:01:51.659 --> 00:01:53.280 Oh, Eric. 18 00:01:53.340 --> 00:02:09.900 No, yeah, no, I, when asked to come on, I, this was one of the episodes I asked to have because it's, it certainly, I think Russell's best standalone episode, um, that does a traditional Doctor Who style thing, um, isn't part of a finale or whatever. 19 00:02:09.960 --> 00:02:14.699 And it is magnificent, I think, in almost every capacity. 20 00:02:14.819 --> 00:02:22.379 There are a few small equivables you can have with it, I think, but it's fundamentally just amazing from top to bottom start to finish. 21 00:02:22.500 --> 00:02:23.879 So. 22 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:25.259 We all love this idea. 23 00:02:25.319 --> 00:02:25.500 Okay. 24 00:02:25.560 --> 00:02:27.539 Well, thank you very much for listening and good night. 25 00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:33.240 Well, the idea that podcasts need dissension and argument to be interesting. 26 00:02:33.300 --> 00:02:34.500 I think is utter nonsense. 27 00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:37.319 Yeah, I disagree with that viewpoint as well. 28 00:02:37.919 --> 00:02:39.479 Well done. 29 00:02:42.539 --> 00:02:45.240 Will fight you for dissension. 30 00:02:45.900 --> 00:02:56.819 So we don't normally go through the episode beat by beat or anything like that, but I do think it's kind of worth starting with the opening given that we're now 3 episodes into the season. 31 00:02:56.879 --> 00:03:01.319 Let's look perhaps at how Martha and the doctor's relationship is developed. 32 00:03:02.159 --> 00:03:13.560 Yeah, we have we have an interesting 1st scene here where, obviously, Martha is keen to stay around, but the doctor is also keen to take her on one more trip. 33 00:03:13.620 --> 00:03:19.740 He sort of rationalising out loud how he can keep her on board the Tartars for a bit longer. 34 00:03:19.740 --> 00:03:23.039 And, you know, she just says, well, that's fine by me. 35 00:03:23.099 --> 00:03:34.199 And I find that very nice that, you know, he's been the one saying to her, oh, you know, I'll take you home, like last week we had that horrible scene where he says, oh, you know, you don't know what's going on. 36 00:03:34.259 --> 00:03:35.219 I'll take you home tomorrow. 37 00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:36.180 Yeah. 38 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:40.680 Whereas here it's him kind of going like, oh, yeah, I like hanging out with you. 39 00:03:40.740 --> 00:03:42.840 Yeah, let's let's keep this thing going on. 40 00:03:42.900 --> 00:03:45.060 And I love that Freema plays it very cool. 41 00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:48.719 Like she's obviously bursting at the opportunity, but she's just like, yeah, okay, fine. 42 00:03:48.780 --> 00:03:51.240 I don't think he wants to admit that though. 43 00:03:51.300 --> 00:03:54.599 Like I think he's still visibly kind of pushing her away. 44 00:03:54.780 --> 00:03:59.460 I think he's a massive... podcast. 45 00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:05.159 He's a bit of a jerk to a massive tool. 46 00:04:05.219 --> 00:04:06.240 Yeah. 47 00:04:06.300 --> 00:04:08.400 We're leaping that alone. 48 00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:13.379 It's interesting because you're right. 49 00:04:13.439 --> 00:04:25.560 He does seem, he's eager to have someone, but he doesn't seem to care who the someone is, which is what's very distressing about this moment in the tense doctor sort of lifecycle, as it were. 50 00:04:25.620 --> 00:04:30.839 And it becomes kind of the emotional core of the episode later where they both sort of have their moments. 51 00:04:30.899 --> 00:04:34.560 Martha and the doctor where they realise they don't know this other person. 52 00:04:34.620 --> 00:04:48.360 They don't kind of know why they're in this situation except that people are lying to each other and people are treating each other badly and now, you know, the doctor says, I, uh, I think it's the cat man whose name I'm currently forgetting. 53 00:04:48.420 --> 00:04:50.399 Because this Martha must mean a lot to. 54 00:04:50.519 --> 00:04:52.139 Yeah, yes, Branigan. you. 55 00:04:52.199 --> 00:04:57.300 Yeah, and she actually has a similar conversation with Milo and Sheen. 56 00:04:57.360 --> 00:05:03.480 Yeah. where she says sometimes I think he likes me. sometimes I think he just needs someone. 57 00:05:03.540 --> 00:05:09.360 And I mean, that's kind of resonant given what Donna told him in the runaway bride. 58 00:05:09.420 --> 00:05:16.139 And I guess we haven't really been thinking about that, but maybe he's doing what Donna told him. 59 00:05:16.199 --> 00:05:18.180 And I mean, he clicked with Donna immediately. 60 00:05:18.180 --> 00:05:19.680 He invited her on board. 61 00:05:19.740 --> 00:05:22.680 Whereas here it was always just kind of provisional. 62 00:05:22.740 --> 00:05:29.759 Yeah, and I think part of the reason it's provisional is as when you've been through any breakup. 63 00:05:29.819 --> 00:05:44.220 You know, you are still going to crave companionship, possibly even more so as a result of the breakup, but most people in that situation would then would then push against that a bit and go, okay, well this could hurt again. 64 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:48.180 I could go through the same separation I've been through. 65 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:54.060 And I think that's the tension of the doctor here, and he's not considering how Martha feels about it at all. 66 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:54.839 No. 67 00:05:54.839 --> 00:05:59.100 It's entirely sort of companion as adjunct to him. 68 00:05:59.160 --> 00:06:01.139 He even says I was showing off. 69 00:06:01.199 --> 00:06:10.259 Yeah, you know, and I don't even think like Martha describes it as a rebound, but I think it's not quite as human as that. 70 00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:11.579 It's it's him. 71 00:06:11.639 --> 00:06:13.079 It is him showing off. 72 00:06:13.139 --> 00:06:14.579 And who does he show off too? 73 00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:18.180 Well, he shows off too, the silly little humans he travels around the universe with. 74 00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:21.420 But this then is the story where he thinks about, well, no, hold on. 75 00:06:21.480 --> 00:06:24.060 She is her own person and she deserves. 76 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:30.000 She deserves to understand who I am, what this situation is, which of course leads us to the last scene, but we'll talk about that later. 77 00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:40.500 I think that lying scene, though, is interesting in that, you know, when Doctor Who gets brought back 2 years ago. 78 00:06:40.920 --> 00:06:48.839 Russell gets to make the choice to reinvent the character and to make him more haunted and a bit more mythical by making him the last survivor. 79 00:06:48.899 --> 00:06:51.660 And that's been a huge feature of the character. 80 00:06:51.720 --> 00:06:59.220 And now he has someone new for the 1st time. since the show came back and he gets to reinvent himself. 81 00:06:59.279 --> 00:07:12.420 And is he showing off or does he just want the chance not to be that doctor for a bit, not to be the doctor who's haunted by this sort of terrible past? 82 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:15.959 Well, he says that he says that himself in dialogue. 83 00:07:16.019 --> 00:07:19.800 He says, just for a moment, I could pretend they were still alive. 84 00:07:19.860 --> 00:07:25.319 It's him, you know, living out that fantasy of not having to carry that burden. 85 00:07:25.379 --> 00:07:31.500 It's really something that Russell can write a script where the leads are separate from us the entire story. 86 00:07:31.620 --> 00:07:36.000 And yet it's the story that ends up binding them together as a unit. 87 00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:36.839 Yeah. 88 00:07:36.839 --> 00:07:49.439 So that by the time we get to the Dalek 2-parter, which is coming up, they feel like proper doctor and companion, it no longer feels like this sort of, will there, won't they sort of weird, Martha's not officially on board sort of thing. 89 00:07:49.500 --> 00:07:58.920 But I think, I think a lot of what everyone, you're all saying is great, but I do think we shouldn't overlook the fact that the doctor is using her in a very unpleasant way. 90 00:07:59.100 --> 00:08:04.439 If any doctor is going to be aware when a human has a crush on him, it's the 10th doctor. 91 00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:07.259 And I think he clearly knows. 92 00:08:07.379 --> 00:08:12.540 He doesn't want to think about it or talk about it, but he knows partly that's why she's there. 93 00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:16.980 He knows that he's as attractive to her as the travelling in space and time. 94 00:08:17.220 --> 00:08:39.000 And so the fact that he's willing to do that to gratify his own ego, to have someone to show up with, to just to have someone, all of those reasons, is really speaks volumes about where the Tense doctor is at this moment and why maybe he was more hesitant to bring Martha on board than he was Donna. 95 00:08:39.059 --> 00:08:45.600 Donna made it clear from the start, no, not happening here, stick and sex. which is a great attitude, I think. 96 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:46.200 That's very funny. 97 00:08:46.259 --> 00:08:49.500 Whereas Martha, from the beginning, is kind of moony-eyed. 98 00:08:49.860 --> 00:08:56.639 Um, and he's winking at her and being all charming and flirting in Smith and Jones and kisses her and all that, he knows. 99 00:08:56.759 --> 00:08:57.419 He knows. 100 00:08:57.480 --> 00:08:58.679 I think you're probably right. 101 00:08:58.740 --> 00:09:02.159 I'm not sure that we, because there doesn't seem to be a visible moment. 102 00:09:02.220 --> 00:09:11.879 You know, like Martha in Smith and Jones does a sort of eye roll to camera, sort of immediately after she denies that she's interested in him. 103 00:09:11.940 --> 00:09:16.860 And, you know, there are moments where Freema's clearly playing it that way. 104 00:09:16.919 --> 00:09:26.700 But there's nothing, there's no particular moment and as far as I can remember and nothing in dialogue, but I think that the behaviour has to be prompted by that. 105 00:09:26.759 --> 00:09:32.220 It's a weird choice because it does make the doctor quite unlikeable, I think. 106 00:09:32.279 --> 00:09:34.139 In a way that we haven't seen for a while. 107 00:09:34.200 --> 00:09:41.039 I mean, he was sort of annoying last season. but not actively unlikeable, like not horrible. 108 00:09:41.159 --> 00:09:45.659 And, you know, I think it's something Russell is doing deliberately. 109 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:48.120 Yeah, no, I think I think I think it's right. 110 00:09:48.179 --> 00:09:48.960 I think it's deliberate. 111 00:09:49.019 --> 00:09:53.519 And whether or not he was unlikeable or just annoying in season 2 as a matter of some debate, I think. 112 00:09:53.580 --> 00:10:02.940 But the 10th doctor's journey, such as it is, his arc is kind of trying to purge those elements of his character. 113 00:10:02.940 --> 00:10:05.460 And he never actually succeeds. 114 00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:17.519 The sort of the selfishness, the sort of vaingloriousness, this sort of desire to have the affection of these people, even though he knows it's not really a good idea. 115 00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:32.879 He never gets rid of it, but it's why I think a lot of people respond best to the 10th doctor with Donna in the 4th season because that part is sort of put on the side and it becomes purely about his hubris or the time lord and not as sort of like. 116 00:10:33.480 --> 00:10:35.700 Hey, for the 1st time ever, I'm a sexy young guy. 117 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:37.500 This is fun. 118 00:10:37.559 --> 00:10:40.799 Let's try it He does really take advantage of that, doesn't he? 119 00:10:40.860 --> 00:10:42.419 Absolutely. 120 00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:46.379 Like in his 1st story, you've got Jackie mooning over him. 121 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:48.600 Oh, is there anything else you've got 2 of, you know. 122 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:52.320 Then in New Earth, when Rose kisses him. 123 00:10:52.379 --> 00:10:56.519 It's not shock so much as... 124 00:10:56.580 --> 00:10:57.120 Still got it. 125 00:10:57.179 --> 00:10:57.480 Yeah. 126 00:10:57.539 --> 00:10:58.740 Still got it. 127 00:10:58.799 --> 00:10:59.879 That's absolutely surprising. 128 00:10:59.940 --> 00:11:04.559 And Cassandra even says he's noticed you watching. 129 00:11:04.620 --> 00:11:05.340 Right. 130 00:11:05.340 --> 00:11:08.879 And yeah, he is aware of the effect. 131 00:11:08.940 --> 00:11:18.360 I'm reminded of when I was very young, Cliff Richard and Olivia Newton, John did an Australian tour. 132 00:11:18.360 --> 00:11:22.320 James has gave me a face of like, where is this going? 133 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:27.480 But Cliff Richard was sort of asked, you know, you and Olivia working together. 134 00:11:27.539 --> 00:11:28.440 What's that like? 135 00:11:28.500 --> 00:11:31.799 And Cliff said, well, she's in love with me and I'm intrigued. 136 00:11:32.340 --> 00:11:35.159 She's a beautiful woman, probably. 137 00:11:35.220 --> 00:11:36.299 Exactly, exactly. 138 00:11:36.360 --> 00:11:38.279 The 10th doctor. 139 00:11:38.340 --> 00:11:39.840 Oh, okay, yeah, fine. 140 00:11:39.899 --> 00:11:42.240 Yeah, this fancying thing is fun. 141 00:11:42.299 --> 00:11:46.080 And then, of course, you know, when Rose goes, he's like, oh, this is what heartbreak is. 142 00:11:46.139 --> 00:11:46.919 Oh no. 143 00:11:46.980 --> 00:11:49.019 And then I think he has no idea. 144 00:11:49.080 --> 00:11:50.399 Yeah, he has no idea what he's doing. 145 00:11:50.460 --> 00:11:53.159 What is this human emotion called, love? 146 00:11:53.220 --> 00:11:56.279 Yeah, you know, what is this pain in my chest? 147 00:11:56.340 --> 00:11:58.559 Like, is this what you humans call friendship? 148 00:11:58.620 --> 00:12:00.720 Don't give me this Star Trek crap, Krich. 149 00:12:01.620 --> 00:12:18.059 He's not he's not being vindictive or cruel. deliberately, but he's kind of like he wants he wants a friend and this friend he's met has a crush on him and he has no idea of how to deal with it. 150 00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:21.179 So as you were saying, Eric, I think he just sort of pushes it to one side. 151 00:12:21.240 --> 00:12:22.559 Oh no, we're not going to talk about that now. 152 00:12:22.620 --> 00:12:23.759 We're not going to deal with that right now. 153 00:12:23.820 --> 00:12:35.759 And yeah, I mean, this story then gives him an opportunity to start doing that because, you know, he brings her to a place he knows, he knows New Earth because he was here before with Rose. 154 00:12:35.820 --> 00:12:36.360 Oh, dear. 155 00:12:36.419 --> 00:12:37.919 Yeah, no it was their 1st date. 156 00:12:37.980 --> 00:12:38.940 It was their 1st date. 157 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:44.100 And yeah, Martha even calls him out on that, you know, rebound. 158 00:12:44.159 --> 00:12:45.899 You're taking me to all the same places you took her. 159 00:12:46.500 --> 00:12:50.639 And of course, Martha being Martha, she gets the crappy version of the same trip. 160 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:52.080 Yes. 161 00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:54.120 Yeah, you've brought me to the slubs. 162 00:12:54.179 --> 00:12:55.379 She even lampshades that. 163 00:12:55.440 --> 00:12:56.519 Yeah, it's great. 164 00:12:57.360 --> 00:13:04.139 But, you know, then she's she's taken prisoner, which is a very sort of standard terry nation. 165 00:13:04.259 --> 00:13:05.940 Yeah, it's awesome. 166 00:13:05.940 --> 00:13:08.700 How do we make sure we don't just get back into the ship? 167 00:13:08.879 --> 00:13:18.779 And it takes the doctor from this place of, you know, being at best inconsiderate of her feelings. 168 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:24.120 And putting him into a more heroic role, if he has to save this person, he hardly knows. 169 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:35.159 And all but acknowledges that the only reason they are in this situation is that she's kind of doe-eyed for him and would follow him anywhere, blah, blah, and it's all his fault. 170 00:13:35.220 --> 00:13:42.179 When he calls out her name and she's being captured and it's sort of overplayed by tenant in a sort of fairly typical way. 171 00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:55.259 Oh, yeah, but it is his 1st it's his 1st actual sort of proper emotion, that it's all been surface, that it's all been kind of sort of calculated and with a sort of eye to the audience. 172 00:13:55.320 --> 00:14:02.039 And so, you know, I think that that's the moment where he's actually made at some point to care about her. 173 00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:19.559 Yeah, and I think what you say there about it all being surface is really beautifully sort of illustrated by the opening scene in the TARDIS, which we've talked about, but I just want to go back to, because we see him go from being broody to manic doctor, and we know it's an act. 174 00:14:19.740 --> 00:14:26.159 We as the audience know, and Martha probably doesn't notice because she's too busy mooning and wooning and whatever. 175 00:14:26.220 --> 00:14:34.379 But we see him go from sort of feeling regretful and sad about the time lords and all that, blah, blah, blah, blah. 176 00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:40.019 But then we see him immediately go, ah, and do his big tenant manic energy thing, and you realise it's fake. 177 00:14:40.139 --> 00:14:47.519 And then it makes you question every other time it's happened and think, how often is this doctor pretending to be excited about things? 178 00:14:47.700 --> 00:14:57.240 Certainly, there's a moment when they're in pharmacy town and he gets very excited about being in the slums and the rain and that kind of thing. 179 00:14:57.299 --> 00:15:07.320 And there's a delivery he does that he hasn't done before, but that I had heard him do when he was doing the audiobook of the Stone Rose. 180 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:14.639 And when he's doing the audiobook, he has to distinguish between the narrator and the doctor. 181 00:15:14.700 --> 00:15:18.240 And so he overplays the doctor's enthusiasm, I think. 182 00:15:18.299 --> 00:15:36.899 I mean, it just seems to me that he's even pushing it further and further about the surface, you know, about just creating an impression, that this is all about constructing a new person to be in order to impress Martha and that it's not at all the way that he would have behaved around Rose because they had a rapport. 183 00:15:37.019 --> 00:15:39.779 And because they had a sort of proper relationship with each other. 184 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:42.240 Here it's all very, very calculated. 185 00:15:42.299 --> 00:15:53.220 And, you know, Tenet is very good at drawing a difference between the performance version of the doctor and the doctor when we see him sort of really honestly feeling things. 186 00:15:53.220 --> 00:15:56.220 And I think he's sort of definitely doing this here. 187 00:15:56.279 --> 00:16:04.740 And he's also very good, I would say, this episode at being unbelievably angry at how stupid humanity is. 188 00:16:04.860 --> 00:16:12.000 This is maybe one of the best 10th doctor looking at us as stupid apes episodes. 189 00:16:12.059 --> 00:16:17.639 Not only with the anger at the people in pharmacy town where he sort of shrieks and bellows at them. 190 00:16:17.700 --> 00:16:29.100 But then the moment in the car where he's on their Phoebe radio to the Casini sisters, and he, he just keeps hammering home the point that you're all stupid. 191 00:16:29.100 --> 00:16:34.620 And you've all been telling yourself these lies, and you won't know their lies, but you won't face the truth. 192 00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:38.700 And he's like, ever won police car, ever won, any, anything official ever. 193 00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:41.279 And he just keeps going and they're all telling him to stop. 194 00:16:41.340 --> 00:16:43.019 They all clearly have gotten the point. 195 00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:46.799 But he won't, because he's not done making them feel stupid yet. 196 00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:51.720 It's it's an interesting portrait of the doctor in this episode. 197 00:16:51.779 --> 00:16:55.080 I quite like it, but it is not, it is not happy go lucky tenant. 198 00:17:04.140 --> 00:17:10.559 Let's move on and talk about the world that's presented here, because I think that that's by far the most interesting part of the episode. 199 00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:14.940 And I want to kind of talk about a conversation that we've just come from. 200 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:17.460 And this is a conversation at the pub. 201 00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:25.740 And this is a conversation that we've actually had in our The Girl in the Fireplace episode with Simon. 202 00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:40.380 And I have a number of friends who dislike this episode and the peg on which they want to hook their dislike is the fact that they can't believe the world that's created. 203 00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:51.420 And in particular what they can't believe is the length of time that people are prepared to spend in the traffic jam. 204 00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:55.380 And we 1st hear about it, I think, from Martha. 205 00:17:56.400 --> 00:18:13.019 It comes from the moment where Martha's in the car with Milo and Sheen, and they talk about their plans for the unborn child that they have, and they say that it's going to take them 6 years to get to, what, New Brooklyn or something. 206 00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:17.039 And she's horrified. 207 00:18:17.099 --> 00:18:25.140 And then later the doctors on the CB radio to the Cassini sisters, and they say that they've been on the most way for 22 years. 208 00:18:25.140 --> 00:18:30.059 Yes, yeah, yeah, 23 years, we were among the first. 209 00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:30.599 Yeah. 210 00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:37.680 And we find out in the chronology of the episode that it's been 30 years since the doctor has been here. 211 00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:43.079 But yeah, the virus hit, I think, 24 years ago. 24 years ago. 212 00:18:43.140 --> 00:18:43.859 Yeah. 213 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:49.019 Yeah, and on that idea that, you know, this world is unrealistic. 214 00:18:49.079 --> 00:18:56.039 My thought on that is, you know, at the moment, it is very hard to afford to buy a house. 215 00:18:56.519 --> 00:19:01.079 In many parts of the world, in many cities. especially in Sydney. 216 00:19:01.140 --> 00:19:02.039 Especially in Sydney. 217 00:19:02.099 --> 00:19:16.500 But the thing is, people still go to work and they still save their money and they still go talk to banks about what they can borrow and they still look at property guides because we want to believe that if we follow the prescribed program. 218 00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:22.619 In this case, the prescribed program is, okay, life isn't too good at the under city, but if you can just get to New Brooklyn. 219 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:23.640 Yeah. 220 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:26.460 You know, you'll make it New Jersey or New New Jersey. 221 00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:35.099 But, you know, everyone's trying to get there at the moment and that's why it's so hard to get there and that's why it takes you so long, but if you just have faith, you know, you'll get there. 222 00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:40.319 And everyone believes that they're the one who can get there as well. 223 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:47.880 So Russell T. Davies has said with the story, he didn't set out to write a satire about religion. 224 00:19:47.940 --> 00:19:54.359 You know, he just built this world and a lot of people see it as a satire of religion because it features religious songs. 225 00:19:54.420 --> 00:20:04.200 But yeah, he chose the old rugged cross because as a him type song, it's not as religious as some. 226 00:20:04.259 --> 00:20:08.160 Not sort of not any specific denomination is mentioned. 227 00:20:08.220 --> 00:20:10.200 It's so Protestant though. 228 00:20:10.259 --> 00:20:13.619 We will get to this because I think it's super important. 229 00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:21.000 And I think that that moment in the episode is perhaps the most interesting one and it's the one where James and I burst into tears every single time we watched. 230 00:20:21.059 --> 00:20:21.660 Is that right? 231 00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:24.839 Yeah, see, whereas I don't write... 232 00:20:24.900 --> 00:20:32.220 Yeah, I think it's incredibly beautiful, but I think it is like, you know, Russell's take on this isn't necessarily definitive, of course. 233 00:20:32.220 --> 00:20:39.599 And I think that his obsession with religion means that this is much more, in fact, than a satire of late capitalism. 234 00:20:39.660 --> 00:20:41.640 I don't think it's a satire of religion at all. 235 00:20:41.700 --> 00:20:44.519 I think it's a really interesting exploration of it. 236 00:20:44.940 --> 00:20:50.759 And in that scene, where the doctor has been badgering the Cassini sisters. 237 00:20:50.819 --> 00:21:03.059 One of whom, by the way, Alice, the driver, played by Bridget Turner, wife of Frank Cox, director of the Brink of Disaster, and the last 2 episode of the Sensory. 238 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:03.839 Oh my god. 239 00:21:03.900 --> 00:21:04.799 That's real thing. 240 00:21:05.579 --> 00:21:19.079 But during that, when the song starts up in Russell's script, as they're singing the old rug across, the doctor actually puts a hand on Valerie's shoulder and she looks back at him and smiles and it was written as his apology. 241 00:21:19.140 --> 00:21:20.039 Right. 242 00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:22.619 And Tennant actually said in rehearsals. 243 00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:28.259 I get what you're going for, but it's like he is accepting their version of the situation and he doesn't. 244 00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:34.140 I feel like he, you know, he will say to them, I've got to go and do this. 245 00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:41.819 But tennis is like, I feel like that's the doctor saying you're doing the right thing when they're not, but I think we can still perform it like he sees their point of view. 246 00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:44.339 I think that's actually the correct way to play it. 247 00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:47.819 You know where we've seen her again? 248 00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:48.420 Where? 249 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:51.119 She's Bill's foster mother. 250 00:21:51.180 --> 00:21:52.440 Oh, Valerie. 251 00:21:52.500 --> 00:21:53.339 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 252 00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:53.640 Yep. 253 00:21:53.700 --> 00:21:54.240 I knew that. 254 00:21:54.359 --> 00:21:55.319 I didn't realise that. 255 00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:57.779 I've seen her before. 256 00:21:57.839 --> 00:22:05.220 Yeah, the actress Jennifer Hennessy had also appeared in the 2nd coming. with Christopher Eccleston. 257 00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:16.740 What do you think Russell's going for in this world, Eric? 258 00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:18.720 It's tremendously complicated. 259 00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:29.819 To get, you know, I think the people who get hung up on whether or not it's a believable world, I think, like, really, that's the thing you're gonna fight this episode on? 260 00:22:29.880 --> 00:22:31.619 Like, you think it doesn't quite make sense. 261 00:22:31.680 --> 00:22:34.019 I mean, I think it makes just enough sense to be plausible. 262 00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:40.079 One does wonder what the motorway was like on day 7 of the lockdown, for example. 263 00:22:40.859 --> 00:22:47.759 You know, when the casini sisters 1st got on, which was a few years after the lockdown and the entire under city, and people also forget this. 264 00:22:47.819 --> 00:22:49.259 The entire under city was sealed. 265 00:22:49.319 --> 00:22:51.299 It wasn't just the motorway. 266 00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:52.799 The motorway is part of the under city. 267 00:22:52.859 --> 00:22:57.539 So there are people in in houses and in pharmacy town and all those other places. 268 00:22:57.660 --> 00:22:59.700 So don't forget that. 269 00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:01.259 There's and whole life. 270 00:23:01.319 --> 00:23:02.279 We only see one part of it. 271 00:23:02.339 --> 00:23:10.619 But I think that's a very silly thing to fight an episode on because it's Doctor Who and there's a man inside a police box that's bigger on the inside and just go with it for people. 272 00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:15.359 Yeah, for God's sake, I don't think, um, you know, hand of fear creates a believable world. 273 00:23:16.619 --> 00:23:26.759 Almost no, almost no classic theory story does, and yet they get a complete pass on having completely ridiculous premises and absurd ideas because they're classic series. 274 00:23:26.819 --> 00:23:37.619 And yet a new series story does something that's even a touch maybe more metaphorical and literal and people, you know, shout to the rooftops about, well, the moon is clearly not an egg or whatever. 275 00:23:37.740 --> 00:23:44.400 Some of some of the best Doctor Who is the more allegorical Doctor Who. 276 00:23:44.579 --> 00:23:46.799 I also the Happiness Patrol. 277 00:23:46.859 --> 00:23:47.339 Yeah. 278 00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:48.299 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 279 00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:53.400 The most unrealistic, unbelievable worlds ever produced. 280 00:23:53.460 --> 00:23:57.180 Yeah, entire Earth colony said in a BBC television centre studio. 281 00:23:57.359 --> 00:23:59.160 Even outside. 282 00:23:59.220 --> 00:24:01.019 Yeah, that's right. 283 00:24:01.079 --> 00:24:05.220 I also think, too, that they get a pass because we encountered them when we were 10. 284 00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:08.339 I mean, at least people, you know, kind of our age. 285 00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:15.599 So that kind of slipped past our, you know, watchful dragons and we were kind of prepared to buy that. 286 00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:18.420 Oh, just a total segue here. 287 00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:22.319 A very big Doctor Who Twitter account. don't think it was the official one. 288 00:24:22.380 --> 00:24:23.759 I think it might have been positive who. 289 00:24:23.819 --> 00:24:28.859 Just sent out a question this week, which is what Doctor Who scared you most as a child. 290 00:24:28.920 --> 00:24:34.619 So, of course, I responded Frontios, to which Nathan said, yeah, that's the one you're not allowed to watch because it still scares me. 291 00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:41.940 But what sort of hit me was someone said, oh, the gas mask zombies. 292 00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:50.460 I was 5 years old and it's like, of course there are people who were watching, even this story, as children who are now adults. 293 00:24:50.519 --> 00:24:51.779 I'm a school teacher. 294 00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:58.380 I got kids talking about how crappy the special effects were back in the old days, like 2007. 295 00:24:59.400 --> 00:25:00.779 Yeah. 296 00:25:00.779 --> 00:25:03.359 Well, some of them have been on this podcast. 297 00:25:03.420 --> 00:25:09.960 Yeah, I do have to say on the Blu-ray, the mashing around David Tennant when he steps out into the motorway. 298 00:25:10.019 --> 00:25:10.619 Not great. 299 00:25:10.740 --> 00:25:11.819 No, but it doesn't. 300 00:25:12.059 --> 00:25:13.140 I mean, it doesn't have to be. 301 00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:18.000 No, again, as Eric said, it just needs to be as plausible as it needs to be, I think. 302 00:25:18.059 --> 00:25:19.619 You know, yeah. 303 00:25:19.740 --> 00:25:23.220 Yeah, and something I find so good about it. 304 00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:36.720 And it's a minor thing, but sort of everyone in their individual cars having their own aesthetic, particularly the linchpin for that for me, is what I call the Harajuku car with the 2 young Asian women. 305 00:25:36.779 --> 00:25:47.579 And that's where the doctor gets the bandana and whatnot because of course Harajuku in Tokyo is full of people in extraordinary clothes and you can get extraordinary clothes from there. 306 00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:54.240 What about the white guy who has 2 racks of identical white suits in the carbines? 307 00:25:54.480 --> 00:26:04.259 I think my favourite one, and it's not one that the doctor jumps into, but it's the 2 virgins and the bondage cat. 308 00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:08.940 Oh, the black cats. with the yeah, the black leather Bethal and the Bethal virgins? 309 00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:09.900 Yeah, what's going on there? 310 00:26:09.960 --> 00:26:10.859 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 311 00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:13.980 Well, and what about the nude people reading the radio time? 312 00:26:14.819 --> 00:26:18.240 I mean, and I'm surprised there aren't more naked people. 313 00:26:18.299 --> 00:26:20.940 I mean, if you're in your cars and literally no one ever sees you. 314 00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:21.839 Come on. 315 00:26:21.900 --> 00:26:24.720 A lot of people would be naked or at least partially. 316 00:26:24.779 --> 00:26:26.880 Well, I think everyone else that we didn't see. 317 00:26:26.940 --> 00:26:28.200 They were all like it. 318 00:26:28.259 --> 00:26:30.240 It's just a coincidence, yeah. 319 00:26:30.299 --> 00:26:45.539 But the reason I love that so much and why I mentioned Herajuku is, of course, in Japan in particular, because Japan was an isolationist power for so long, the 60s onwards when Western culture started having more of an influence there. 320 00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:55.319 You see people over there and they might be wearing an entire punk ensemble, like spikes sticking out of everywhere. 321 00:26:55.559 --> 00:26:58.799 But then they'll come up to you and ask where you got your t-shirt. 322 00:26:58.859 --> 00:26:59.700 Oh, you look wonderful. 323 00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:00.480 Don't you look lovely? 324 00:27:00.539 --> 00:27:03.839 And it's kind of an aesthetic thing rather than necessarily the attitude. 325 00:27:03.900 --> 00:27:04.559 Yeah. 326 00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:16.079 But my in universe reason for this happening in new, new, new, new, new, New York is humanity constantly looking back across history and adopting something from there. 327 00:27:16.140 --> 00:27:25.319 And, you know, when we get to the last guy in the stack, the bowler hatted guy, you know, the doctor asks for water and he says, well, you know, no one can accuse me of not having manners. 328 00:27:25.380 --> 00:27:36.539 So he is not only aesthetically the 60s businessman on the way to work in London, he's adopted that attitude as well, like, oh, I won't have guns on my ship, you know? 329 00:27:36.599 --> 00:27:39.059 But he's also sort of Trevor Sigma. 330 00:27:39.119 --> 00:27:46.680 I mean, you don't need an universe reason for him to look like that because we're, you know, conveying things to the current audience. 331 00:27:46.740 --> 00:27:59.339 But I think it's a coping mechanism because, you know, when the doctor starts talking about his suspicions, it's clear that the casinis and the Brannagans have thought about this kind of stuff before, but they push it aside. 332 00:27:59.400 --> 00:28:03.720 So the Brannigans push it aside with their kids and Mae pushes it aside with their car spotting. 333 00:28:03.779 --> 00:28:07.380 And this guy pushes it aside because stiff upper lip and all that, I'm John Steed. 334 00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:21.359 You know, so everyone's chosen their aesthetic and decorated their car with it to kind of cope with this never-ending monotony of the motorway. 335 00:28:21.660 --> 00:28:23.460 And I think that's great. 336 00:28:23.579 --> 00:28:26.160 That people decorate their houses, though. 337 00:28:26.220 --> 00:28:36.660 Like, I mean, we decorate our houses to illustrate our personalities and to give us a safe place in a world which is not always the most fun thing to be in. 338 00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:40.440 Well, like, I think that that whole point is hugely important. 339 00:28:40.500 --> 00:28:47.099 And I think the reason is that these people are trapped in a world that looks to us appalling and ridiculous. 340 00:28:47.160 --> 00:28:53.640 You know, that they are travelling minuscule distance every year. 341 00:28:53.700 --> 00:28:59.579 The audience is shocked when they hear that someone can be in a traffic jam for 23 years. 342 00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:30.599 But if we look at it as an analogue to work, which seems like an obvious thing to do, given that we commute to and from work, and we do it every day and we do it for decades and decades of our lives, um, you know, the fact that in that situation, they are able to marry and have children, that they are able to conduct their lives in these diverse ways, and that they're able to form some kind of community. 343 00:29:31.140 --> 00:29:34.740 None of them seems weighed down by the situation. 344 00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:38.400 Um, That that's a positive thing. 345 00:29:38.460 --> 00:29:42.359 It's about the triumph of the human spirit through adversity, really. 346 00:29:42.420 --> 00:29:43.019 It? 347 00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:47.759 And I think this is where I get to this sort of what is this story saying? 348 00:29:47.819 --> 00:29:57.480 Because I think it's not about the triumph of the human spirit so much, it's about the ability of the human mind to deceive itself in order not to confront a harsh reality, isn't it? 349 00:29:57.539 --> 00:30:00.299 I was trying to be optimistic. 350 00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:11.579 I think maybe it's both, and I think that's why this episode is so intriguing to me is that moment that you referenced earlier with the old rugged cross, by the way, yes, as a Catholic, very Protestant, this whole thing. 351 00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:12.960 Yeah, yeah. 352 00:30:13.019 --> 00:30:18.480 That moment is both about the comfort of faith, but it's also about the lie of faith. 353 00:30:18.539 --> 00:30:20.759 There's no way off the motorway. 354 00:30:20.819 --> 00:30:26.400 There's no jobs going in Brooklyn or no one's ever getting to Fire Island, which was a funny joke. 355 00:30:26.460 --> 00:30:27.180 Yes. 356 00:30:27.180 --> 00:30:27.779 Yes. 357 00:30:27.900 --> 00:30:30.240 The laundry must be incredibly busy. 358 00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:42.720 But they've all they've all convinced themselves of this idea that if they believe this fiction and live their lives in a very prescribed way, At some point, there is literally a promised land. 359 00:30:42.779 --> 00:30:43.380 Yeah. 360 00:30:43.380 --> 00:30:45.240 I mean, come on. 361 00:30:45.299 --> 00:30:47.220 It's not even metaphor at that point. 362 00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:48.420 The subtext would become death. 363 00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:56.940 In fact, it's worse than that, because they all know that there are monsters underneath the motorway, and they know that people are being killed and they're not thinking about that. 364 00:30:57.000 --> 00:31:00.180 As you said before, they know that there are no police. 365 00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:06.359 They don't want to admit it, but they've never seen it and they're all shifty and evasive and they try and shut the conversation down. 366 00:31:06.420 --> 00:31:08.039 There's no one in authority. 367 00:31:08.099 --> 00:31:13.019 There's a terrible, terrible nightmarish monster beneath them. 368 00:31:13.079 --> 00:31:22.019 And yet inside all of that, they managed to live lives and have children and have relationships and have some kind of faith. 369 00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:34.920 And I think that the 2 different takes on the idea that we have outlined are the 2 different takes that Martha and the doctor have on what's going on. 370 00:31:34.980 --> 00:31:41.039 So when the old rugged cross is played, Martha cries and joins in. 371 00:31:41.099 --> 00:31:43.680 You know, she sings it with them. 372 00:31:43.740 --> 00:31:49.859 And one of the reasons why that's so affecting is that it's uplifting and it's beautiful. 373 00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:56.279 But the doctor's reaction and the reason he doesn't put his hand on Valerie's shoulder. 374 00:31:56.339 --> 00:32:06.599 And the reason, in fact, that that galvanises him into action is that he knows that that's a lie, that all of that stuff is based on a comforting lie. 375 00:32:06.660 --> 00:32:11.880 There's no God, there's no one in authority who is coming to rescue you. 376 00:32:11.940 --> 00:32:32.819 And so he has to do something to help these people and partly because they've shown him that in spite of all of the kind of horror and pointlessness of the situation that they're in, that they haven't been crushed by it, that they've found a way of accommodating it and living good lives in spite of it. 377 00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:38.339 For a story written by an atheist, it's complete religious allegory. 378 00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:42.480 To the point where the doctor at the end leads them into the light. 379 00:32:42.539 --> 00:32:46.980 He takes the place of the non-existent god in their world. 380 00:32:46.980 --> 00:32:48.359 It saves them. 381 00:32:48.420 --> 00:32:50.460 Well, the future is the non-existent part. 382 00:32:50.519 --> 00:32:54.299 The 1st of all, save them, but can only do so much where they need a redeemer. 383 00:32:54.359 --> 00:32:57.000 And so God sent his only begotten son. 384 00:32:57.059 --> 00:32:58.440 The doctor to save them all. 385 00:32:58.500 --> 00:33:01.500 Yeah, okay, so the face of bonnet, bow is god. 386 00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:02.759 The doctor is Jesus Christ. 387 00:33:02.819 --> 00:33:07.799 Well, no, not quite, because the face of Bo dies in order to, in order to release them. 388 00:33:07.859 --> 00:33:10.619 So he's, you know, he's the dying saviour. 389 00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:12.839 Well, he Russell's an atheist. 390 00:33:12.900 --> 00:33:13.799 He got the metaphor confused. 391 00:33:13.859 --> 00:33:31.079 Well, like, I think, you know, Russell Russell is an atheist, but he is clearly fascinated by religion, and I've said before on the podcast that he's the person that brings proper religion to Doctor Who for the 1st time, that religion is not just, you know, the cult of Demnos or... 392 00:33:31.140 --> 00:33:31.980 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 393 00:33:32.039 --> 00:33:37.319 Like it's not just, you know, crazy cultists who want to sort of tie you to a rock and drop another rock on you. 394 00:33:37.380 --> 00:33:40.200 Or worshipping the dough deckhedron for bizarre reasons. 395 00:33:40.259 --> 00:33:41.099 Yeah, yeah. 396 00:33:41.099 --> 00:33:48.420 No, he actually has really proper people who are sort of quantum Presbyterians or whatever, you know, in the Church of the Tin vagabond. 397 00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:52.200 You know, he brings that back into the show and he's really interested in it. 398 00:33:52.259 --> 00:34:01.680 And he does a sort of classic Dawkinsian atheist thing in the end of the world where he says that no weapons or religion are permitted on platform one. 399 00:34:01.740 --> 00:34:02.519 Do you know what I mean? 400 00:34:02.579 --> 00:34:05.220 That's a sort of standard kind of new atheist idea. 401 00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:13.139 But here I think he's so fascinated by religion that he does, I think, deliberately use that metaphor. 402 00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:22.920 So there's a discovery, like I think we suspect, we'd never buy the idea that there's someone to rescue them. 403 00:34:22.980 --> 00:34:31.199 And in fact, the very opening scene, the cold open, is 2 people calling the police and no one answering, you know, and they get killed. 404 00:34:31.260 --> 00:34:33.659 So we know that there's no one. 405 00:34:33.719 --> 00:34:47.039 But then we do discover there is someone that this pointlessness isn't just the sort of cruel futility of the actual universe where there's no one in charge and we're all going to die, that it has been set up to save them. 406 00:34:47.099 --> 00:35:00.119 And that's the sort of inherent tension in being an atheist and a Doctor Who writer, is Doctor Who requires people to be in horrible situations from which they're saved by something that resembles a kind of supernatural being from heaven. 407 00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:11.039 And this is the season that sort of goes back to that well and again and again with here, but, you know, most notably with the finale where, you know, Dr. Zidis has resived by everyone believing in him. 408 00:35:11.099 --> 00:35:14.940 I mean, and then he does a cross position as he huffers across the room. 409 00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:21.420 I mean, that is a serious, serious kind of grapple with the idea is like, how can you believe in the doctor but not believe in God? 410 00:35:21.480 --> 00:35:33.659 And isn't the doctors fundamentally just sort of an extension of the idea of there being a divine force that is stronger than all of us that can save us if we're just good enough and maybe a bit lucky, which is where the Protestant bit comes in? 411 00:35:33.719 --> 00:35:34.320 Yeah. 412 00:35:34.380 --> 00:35:40.199 But I mean, I mean, the doctor doesn't save them exactly because his attempts to do it fail. 413 00:35:40.260 --> 00:35:48.179 Like he throws the big lever and it only works when the face of both gives up his life to save them. 414 00:35:48.239 --> 00:35:55.800 So he's not putting the doctor in the god position here exactly, but he's certainly playing with that idea. 415 00:35:55.860 --> 00:36:16.320 And I mean, he does create a world where things aren't what they seem, that the sort of simple, straightforward faith that the people on the motorway have is proven not to be right, but nevertheless, the deeper truth is still a kind of theistic and essentially Christian truth. 416 00:36:16.500 --> 00:36:19.559 It's deeply platonic is what it is. 417 00:36:19.619 --> 00:36:20.219 Yep. 418 00:36:20.219 --> 00:36:22.139 It's ripped straight from the Republic. 419 00:36:22.199 --> 00:36:30.119 We have the idea of the noble lie that people are in classes, that people will live this life, and that is how you keep people from trying to fight too hard. 420 00:36:30.179 --> 00:36:42.000 The noble lies often identified with religion, and Plato initially do it, but he sort of hinted at it, and clearly here it's religion, but it's also the idea of the rules and the structure and the class system and all that, keeping everyone in place. 421 00:36:42.360 --> 00:37:02.460 Meanwhile, um, we have the allegory of the cave, they're all trapped in the light, and Plato says explicitly that those people will be so fascinated by the little images, the little holograms on their screen, the little things they fill their life with, that they won't notice or won't care, that they are completely oblivious to anything resembling actual truth or reality. 422 00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:08.340 They'll be so obsessed with predicting the number which will come next, counting the cars. 423 00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:10.260 You know, they'll just not care. 424 00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:24.360 And then what we have is the doctor coming in and trying to save them, and they fight him, just as Plato said, the people in the cave will fight the man who comes to try to rescue them because they will not want to go into the light because it'll be so bright, it will blind them, which is exactly what happens at the end. 425 00:37:24.420 --> 00:37:25.380 Yeah. 426 00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:31.199 We see this image of the light coming down and everyone's, it's, it's literally too bright for them to look at. 427 00:37:31.260 --> 00:37:39.119 Now, the fact that that metaphor also works for Christianity is sort of because Christianity found a lot of metaphors I liked and built it into its framework. 428 00:37:39.179 --> 00:37:40.079 Yeah. 429 00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:52.199 But fundamentally, I would say it's deeply platonic and it's this idea that Average people need someone else to save them because we're too, we're too willing to believe in the shadows. 430 00:37:52.440 --> 00:37:54.719 And so we need the doctor. 431 00:37:54.780 --> 00:38:16.199 Yeah, and that, um, that sort of platonic nature is something I wanted to say because even though, you know, the doctor in the face of Bo and Novice Haim together work to change the status quo and give the city back to the people, the story still ends with the city still singing their songs. 432 00:38:16.380 --> 00:38:17.460 It's a new song. 433 00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:48.420 It's abide with me rather than the old rugged cross, but that sense of community has been retained that was built as its own kind of faith system, if you like, and in a way, the new earth that we saw last time, a lot of the humans we met seem to be, you know, just out for themselves, like the Duke of Manhattan's secretary wants to get out of the hospital, even if it kills everyone on the planet. planet. 434 00:38:48.480 --> 00:39:02.699 Whereas now, being trapped underground for 24 years has led to this sense of community, and that also is very biblical, you know, the people wandering in the desert. 435 00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:04.619 The promised land. 436 00:39:04.679 --> 00:39:06.719 Yeah, towards the promised land, yeah. 437 00:39:06.780 --> 00:39:16.380 I guess maybe the thing is the critique of people is what you were saying, Eric, how quickly they accommodate that. 438 00:39:16.500 --> 00:39:22.739 And that they're so willing to settle for it, that they don't fight for it. 439 00:39:22.800 --> 00:39:31.320 There's no kind of political movement or any hint of anything like that where they express dissatisfaction with what they find. 440 00:39:35.400 --> 00:39:53.940 When Brendan mentioned the doctor, the face of Bo and Nurseim, and realised for the 1st time that they're the Holy Trinity, we have the feminine feature and we have the father and the son, although the roles are kind of going back and forth between father and son, but then we have the Holy Spirit being the sort of feminine force who's a cat in this case. 441 00:39:54.480 --> 00:39:59.820 And between the 3 of them, they're able to redeem mankind, although not without sacrifice. 442 00:39:59.880 --> 00:40:13.320 But I think this idea, and this kind of, you know, the idea that they're all satisfied, this gets into the sort of more Marxist, late capitalist critique, which was very similar to what he did in New Earth with his society. 443 00:40:13.380 --> 00:40:17.579 And he had hints of it in, um, end of the world as well. 444 00:40:17.639 --> 00:40:19.619 But it's interesting... 445 00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:24.059 Yeah, the great and good, and the idea that Rose would talk to the plumber. 446 00:40:24.119 --> 00:40:24.960 I don't remember her name. 447 00:40:25.019 --> 00:40:26.039 Raffallo. 448 00:40:26.099 --> 00:40:26.820 Raffello. 449 00:40:26.880 --> 00:40:28.980 Rafalo, like not many people would talk to me. 450 00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:30.239 Mark Rafallo. 451 00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:34.139 It'd be great if there were just Minecraft, low and Blueface. 452 00:40:35.820 --> 00:40:46.619 But this idea that the future is not some sort of communist utopia, in fact, it's this late capitalism that people like to talk about as being the moment we're currently living in. 453 00:40:46.679 --> 00:40:48.480 Now this extends for 5000000000 more years. 454 00:40:48.539 --> 00:40:49.199 Yeah. 455 00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:53.099 This is just how it is and it gets worse and worse and worse. 456 00:40:53.159 --> 00:40:58.320 And, you know, the elite will exploit the common people more and more. 457 00:40:58.380 --> 00:41:06.539 And the common people will never, ever, ever rise up against them because they'll have something to keep them occupied. 458 00:41:06.659 --> 00:41:10.500 This small little, oh, we made 20 yards last week. 459 00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:11.460 Great. awesome. 460 00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:14.579 They'll convince themselves they're reaching towards some goal. 461 00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:19.199 Meanwhile, people above are theoretically flying around on their jetpacks and doing whatever. 462 00:41:19.320 --> 00:41:22.440 But of course, in this case, they're all gone. 463 00:41:22.500 --> 00:41:24.239 Like those people aren't there anymore. 464 00:41:24.300 --> 00:41:33.840 Certainly in New Earth, where you have a whole class of people being sort of viciously immiserated by rich people who are mostly getting cosmetic treatments upstairs. 465 00:41:33.900 --> 00:41:37.260 Like that's super clear there, I think. 466 00:41:37.320 --> 00:41:43.860 But here, by taking the oppressors away and just making it a kind of accident. 467 00:41:43.980 --> 00:41:46.559 I think there's something interesting about that. 468 00:41:46.619 --> 00:41:48.780 The revolution happened in spite of them. 469 00:41:48.840 --> 00:41:49.860 Yeah. 470 00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:50.460 Yeah. 471 00:41:50.519 --> 00:41:54.119 Well, they brought their own revolution on themselves through bliss. 472 00:41:54.179 --> 00:42:00.659 You know, they already had everything they could ever need, but they wanted to take away whatever little stress they had. 473 00:42:01.019 --> 00:42:15.179 I have to say, like, um, something that struck me watching it, again, was, you know, Novasheim says there was a new mood, bliss, and in my head, I'd remember it as, and, you know, they just lethargied themselves to death. 474 00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:18.059 But it's like, no, there was a new mood bliss. 475 00:42:18.119 --> 00:42:20.340 And then there was this virus and we couldn't we couldn't contain it. 476 00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:22.860 It's like, did Bliss become the... 477 00:42:22.980 --> 00:42:23.159 No? 478 00:42:23.219 --> 00:42:26.280 Okay, it was a separate virus, but then they didn't do it. 479 00:42:26.340 --> 00:42:28.500 And then it killed the world in 7 minutes flat. 480 00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:30.900 Well, it doesn't particularly matter if they're blissed out then, does it? 481 00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:32.039 There's not much they could do. 482 00:42:32.099 --> 00:42:35.039 And what they did do was save a bunch of people. 483 00:42:35.159 --> 00:42:38.280 Yeah, the mood could have been slightly peckish. 484 00:42:38.340 --> 00:42:40.380 It doesn't really matter. 485 00:42:40.440 --> 00:42:42.300 Yeah, I think you're right. 486 00:42:42.360 --> 00:42:51.659 I think he kind of missed a trick to her going and I, um, the last Gregarians and the Odyssey, the, the, the opium metres, essentially, the ones who just keep eating the poppies and that's their entire life. 487 00:42:51.719 --> 00:42:55.980 That would have been a fine metaphor, I think, for the sort of indolence of the upper classes. 488 00:42:56.039 --> 00:43:05.219 But instead, yeah, he has this idea of the super virus, um, that mutates and becomes airborne and kills everyone on the planet in 7 minutes, which is really fast. 489 00:43:06.179 --> 00:43:13.619 And, and he, he really sticks that idea and I think, I think it's one of my main quibbles with the episode of it. 490 00:43:13.739 --> 00:43:21.599 It feels, it feels like he added that to be less judgemental, maybe, of the people who died. 491 00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:30.900 And to make them more victims instead of I don't know, instead of like the rich jerks they probably were. 492 00:43:31.079 --> 00:43:42.420 It also strikes me that maybe, you know, during a script meeting, Julie Gardner or Phil Collins and said, okay, so they've got this they got this mood bliss, but surely not everyone will be taking out. 493 00:43:42.480 --> 00:43:43.380 Oh, well, fine, Julie. 494 00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:44.039 That was a virus. 495 00:43:49.079 --> 00:43:52.199 Can we go for a cigarette now at very time? 496 00:43:53.340 --> 00:43:55.019 Don't do that. 497 00:43:56.880 --> 00:43:59.519 No, don't go for a cigarette now, kids. 498 00:43:59.579 --> 00:44:01.800 You know, just have some happy happy. 499 00:44:01.920 --> 00:44:03.900 No, do not have happy, happy. 500 00:44:03.960 --> 00:44:04.980 I did not endorse that. 501 00:44:05.039 --> 00:44:12.539 Yeah, and it's also, but it does make you wonder, like, what was, what was bliss that wasn't happy, happy or, you know, any of the other moods. 502 00:44:12.599 --> 00:44:14.820 And also honesty, sorry, is not a mood. 503 00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:18.360 That's a dumb, that's a dumb little trick that he does to make it clear that she's not lying. 504 00:44:18.420 --> 00:44:21.300 There's no reason why someone would wear an honesty patch. 505 00:44:21.360 --> 00:44:23.159 It's just a cheap trick. 506 00:44:23.219 --> 00:44:24.659 And it gets a laugh. 507 00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:32.699 I think that that's just one of those things where his desire to have a funny close-up, uh, kind of overcomes the world building instinct. 508 00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:33.179 Yeah. 509 00:44:33.179 --> 00:44:51.300 And I think the, you know, just throwing the entire upper class away with just some convenient lines of dialogue is just sort of getting getting the world to be the shape that he wants it to be in for the sake of the point he's trying to make, I think. 510 00:44:51.360 --> 00:44:55.920 It was a virus 200 years ago and it killed everyone who knew how to make Androids. 511 00:44:55.980 --> 00:44:59.099 That's it Yeah. 512 00:44:59.099 --> 00:45:01.679 And that is my favourite story. 513 00:45:01.739 --> 00:45:03.119 But even I can say, really? 514 00:45:03.179 --> 00:45:03.780 Yeah. 515 00:45:07.139 --> 00:45:12.420 Did you know that Bridget Turner, who plays Alice? 516 00:45:12.480 --> 00:45:14.400 Frank King's wife. 517 00:45:14.460 --> 00:45:15.360 Apart. 518 00:45:15.420 --> 00:45:15.960 Yes, yes, yes. 519 00:45:16.019 --> 00:45:21.840 She was also John Cleese's 1st choice for Sybil. about that? 520 00:45:21.900 --> 00:45:23.099 But she said no. 521 00:45:23.639 --> 00:45:25.380 But she did this. 522 00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:28.199 No, John, I know what you're like. 523 00:45:28.260 --> 00:45:31.260 I've got one extra piece of information about the macra. 524 00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:33.480 Oh, well, we haven't even talked about the Mac. 525 00:45:33.539 --> 00:45:36.119 We talked about the macro. their name. 526 00:45:36.179 --> 00:45:38.340 Yeah, there are no such things. 527 00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:48.059 Look, pretty much, it started like, you know, Russell went, I need some kind of monster, and his initial thought for the under city was it's where the city meets the sea. 528 00:45:48.119 --> 00:45:50.400 So he was thinking sea creatures. 529 00:45:50.519 --> 00:45:54.900 So his 1st thought was actually a Godzilla style sea lizard. 530 00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:57.780 That eats cars. 531 00:45:57.840 --> 00:46:00.599 But then he started thinking about squids. 532 00:46:00.780 --> 00:46:04.320 And then he started thinking about crabs and went, hold on. 533 00:46:04.440 --> 00:46:05.639 We've done crabs. 534 00:46:05.699 --> 00:46:06.780 We've done crabs. 535 00:46:06.840 --> 00:46:19.619 And so he went, well, if I'm going to have crabs, I'm going to make them macra, which only classic series fans will care about because the macraterra is one of his earliest memories of Doctor Who. 536 00:46:19.739 --> 00:46:22.980 And it's exactly 40 years since they appeared. 537 00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:24.000 Yeah, that's right. 538 00:46:24.059 --> 00:46:35.639 So that's why he settled on Macro, but wrote them in such a way, which both honoured what they'd been before, but you didn't have to know anything about them. 539 00:46:35.699 --> 00:46:40.980 And I remember squealing. sitting on the sofa and going, ah, it's background. 540 00:46:41.039 --> 00:46:48.420 So, you know, I may have seen the closing credits before I saw anything else, so I think I may have seen macro created by Anne Stuart Black. 541 00:46:48.480 --> 00:47:04.380 He actually recons the macro terror because there's uncomfortable kind of feelings that if the it's the macros planet, then, you know, what the hell are all these people doing here and why is the doctor so happy to kill them when clearly they're being colonised. 542 00:47:04.440 --> 00:47:05.099 Yeah. 543 00:47:05.099 --> 00:47:11.039 But so he makes them a sort of galaxy wide plague of evil people who live on gas. 544 00:47:11.099 --> 00:47:12.239 Which is great. 545 00:47:12.300 --> 00:47:13.500 Yeah, crabs. 546 00:47:13.500 --> 00:47:14.340 Who are crabs? 547 00:47:14.460 --> 00:47:14.940 crabs. 548 00:47:15.059 --> 00:47:15.239 Yeah. 549 00:47:15.300 --> 00:47:22.079 It's kind of like when was it Gareth Roberts decided that bandrels were 50 foot high cyborgs. 550 00:47:22.139 --> 00:47:24.420 And, you know, we only ever saw the head of them. 551 00:47:24.659 --> 00:47:28.139 It's like, you know, let's take this slightly crap thing. 552 00:47:28.199 --> 00:47:30.659 And you know, make it better. 553 00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:40.260 That does remind me, though, one of the things looking at my notes, the initial reception to this episode, at least as I can discern it from Wikipedia, was actually quite, quite dumb. 554 00:47:40.260 --> 00:47:42.599 You astound me. 555 00:47:42.659 --> 00:47:48.539 I know, with actually a surprising number of the reviews, complaining that they didn't see enough of the macra. 556 00:47:48.599 --> 00:47:49.619 Oh my god. 557 00:47:49.739 --> 00:47:50.519 Yes. 558 00:47:50.579 --> 00:47:51.480 Yes. 559 00:47:51.539 --> 00:47:56.039 Or people getting fixated on very small little things. 560 00:47:56.280 --> 00:48:04.800 It's one of the clearest instances where Doctor Who fans and the people who write about it, especially in the heat of the moment, can almost never see the forest for the trees. 561 00:48:04.920 --> 00:48:15.480 Like the fact that Kindo was the least popular episode of its season, the fact that apparently the macra not being in it enough made gridlock just would have an okay episode for some people. 562 00:48:15.480 --> 00:48:17.699 Like, you're idiot, people. 563 00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:25.559 You were being given masterpieces of the form and you're complaining about things and saying, oh, it's only 7.5 . 564 00:48:25.619 --> 00:48:28.500 Surely that should be, they couldn't see the crabs for the smoke. 565 00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:29.880 No place. 566 00:48:30.539 --> 00:48:32.340 Oh, James. 567 00:48:41.400 --> 00:48:54.599 We've got a final scene to kind of finish the arc, which we talked about at the beginning of the episode, and it happens all the while while that hymn is going on. 568 00:48:55.440 --> 00:48:58.019 Abide with me. stay with me. 569 00:48:58.440 --> 00:48:59.820 Yeah. 570 00:48:59.880 --> 00:49:03.000 And it certainly has a resonance. 571 00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:10.260 And I have, I'd said this last week, so I won't bang on too much, but I have always liked Martha's character. 572 00:49:10.500 --> 00:49:27.179 But the moment that cements it for me in this episode is when, you know, she she's trying to connect with him and she's trying to get the doctor to talk about what is obviously traumatising for him about him not being alone, which means he thinks he's alone. 573 00:49:27.239 --> 00:49:28.440 So she's saying, I'm here. 574 00:49:28.500 --> 00:49:30.599 I'm ready, I'm listening. 575 00:49:30.659 --> 00:49:36.659 And he just totally rejects her and she just grabs the chair and right, no, we're not going. 576 00:49:36.719 --> 00:49:45.300 In fact, I'd kind of forgotten that because he doesn't drop his facade willingly, does he? 577 00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:49.019 She's present when the face of Beau explains who he is. 578 00:49:49.079 --> 00:49:50.219 Yeah, yeah. 579 00:49:50.280 --> 00:50:03.239 And in that, Russell had forgotten that in a book Justin Richards wrote, because for the 1st 4 years of the new series, Justin Richards wrote these books like Monsters and Aliens, Enemies and Allies, et cetera. 580 00:50:03.300 --> 00:50:19.559 And in one of them, Russell had written this historical text translation that says, you know, the face of Bo will live a long time and then the sky will crack asunder and he will speak his final secret to the alien wanderer without a home. 581 00:50:19.860 --> 00:50:30.179 And when Russell sent off the script to Justin Richards for writing the next book, Justin said, oh, wow, it's so great you remembered that thing you wrote for me last year and Russell said, what? 582 00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:31.559 Sorry what? 583 00:50:31.619 --> 00:50:39.659 And, you know, Russell Liston said, it was a total coincidence, you know, the roof opened and we can interpret that as a skycracking asunder. 584 00:50:39.719 --> 00:50:41.460 Because I don't remember what I write. 585 00:50:41.820 --> 00:50:51.360 Yeah, but I think you're right that it's important that Martha is there for their revelation, as it were, because otherwise the doctor would have continued to keep her at bay. 586 00:50:51.420 --> 00:50:56.880 He would have kept her, but she's there and she hears it and she knows that he's lying about something. 587 00:50:56.940 --> 00:51:04.500 She's pretty in the dark as to what actually the truth might be, but she knows he's just lying to her, straight up lying to her. 588 00:51:04.559 --> 00:51:13.139 And she realises that in that moment, I need to either press this or else I just let him take me home and end this. 589 00:51:13.199 --> 00:51:22.380 Um, whether it's the right decision to make for her emotionally is questionable, especially given her her great speech at the very end when she does leave. 590 00:51:22.440 --> 00:51:26.639 That she kind of kept trying to invest in something that was never going to be. 591 00:51:26.940 --> 00:51:32.699 But I think it provides a really wonderful moment where they do come together. 592 00:51:32.760 --> 00:51:36.059 And what I love most about it is she just listens. 593 00:51:36.780 --> 00:51:40.920 Um, Martha just listens to him talk about Galifre. 594 00:51:40.980 --> 00:51:50.039 She doesn't, she asked a few very basic questions, but it's kind of like therapy where she just sort of gets him to finally say what he won't say. 595 00:51:50.099 --> 00:51:52.380 And then once he starts, he can't stop. 596 00:51:52.440 --> 00:51:57.780 And in fact, the speech continues sort of, and we move away from it. 597 00:51:57.840 --> 00:51:58.920 Like, he's still talking. 598 00:51:59.039 --> 00:52:00.420 We don't hear the end of the speech. 599 00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:04.619 We don't know how long it goes on before the camera goes up and we hear the him again. 600 00:52:04.679 --> 00:52:07.079 Well, we're speaking about the censorites earlier. 601 00:52:07.139 --> 00:52:11.159 That's actually Susan's... about Gallifrey from the... 602 00:52:11.219 --> 00:52:13.679 Yeah, yeah, the silver leaves, et cetera, et cetera. 603 00:52:13.739 --> 00:52:23.159 And also, it's very interesting that, you know, Rose knows very early on that he's the last of the timelords, and she knows about the time war, et cetera, et cetera. 604 00:52:23.219 --> 00:52:28.500 But we've discussed that Rose is a very self-involved character. 605 00:52:28.559 --> 00:52:35.400 So Rose doesn't ask him about, you know, the tragedy he has experienced. 606 00:52:35.460 --> 00:52:42.599 And I think that's not necessarily Rose being self-absorbed, but it's also that, you know, Rose is in love with him. 607 00:52:42.659 --> 00:52:43.559 He's in love with her. 608 00:52:43.619 --> 00:52:45.719 So you're not going to bring up that sad stuff. 609 00:52:45.780 --> 00:52:48.599 But we, we don't even know it at that point. 610 00:52:48.719 --> 00:52:50.880 So we don't know there's anything to reveal, really. 611 00:52:50.940 --> 00:52:55.320 There's Jabe, you know, that interaction with Jabe in the end of the world. 612 00:52:55.380 --> 00:53:03.480 And the reason he tells her is that he sees her reaction to the end of her own planet. 613 00:53:03.539 --> 00:53:05.280 Yeah, but Rose never asks him. 614 00:53:05.400 --> 00:53:05.760 No. 615 00:53:05.760 --> 00:53:07.440 About Galifre afterwards. 616 00:53:07.500 --> 00:53:10.320 And, you know, it's things like when he talks about having a family and being a father. 617 00:53:10.380 --> 00:53:11.099 She's like, what? 618 00:53:11.159 --> 00:53:12.360 But then it follows up on it again. 619 00:53:12.420 --> 00:53:14.099 I think that's it. 620 00:53:14.099 --> 00:53:18.420 The other point there is that Rosie is supposed to be a character who is a lot younger than Martha. 621 00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:20.099 Martha is a professional. 622 00:53:20.159 --> 00:53:21.780 She's trained to be a doctor. 623 00:53:21.840 --> 00:53:23.699 That's not something you do in a short period of time. 624 00:53:23.820 --> 00:53:26.099 She's, what, in her final year of med school. 625 00:53:26.159 --> 00:53:28.679 So about 26, I think Russell envisioned her. 626 00:53:28.739 --> 00:53:30.539 Whereas Rose is supposed to be in her late teens. 627 00:53:30.599 --> 00:53:31.679 Yeah, she's mid-20s. 628 00:53:31.739 --> 00:53:32.460 Rose is 19. 629 00:53:32.639 --> 00:53:33.119 Yeah. 630 00:53:33.179 --> 00:53:37.380 And yeah, we kind of lump the young companions all together. 631 00:53:37.380 --> 00:53:40.440 And then we put sort of Donna as an older companion somewhere else. 632 00:53:40.500 --> 00:53:45.179 But in fact, there's big gradations between 19 and 26 or so. 633 00:53:45.239 --> 00:53:45.960 Yes. 634 00:53:45.960 --> 00:54:02.219 I think you're right that Martha, through both her age, and probably her training as a doctor, is sort of prepared to fit and let this man be vulnerable and let this man tell his story. and be sad and isn't expecting him to sort of entertain her. 635 00:54:02.280 --> 00:54:04.440 Like, It's interesting. 636 00:54:04.500 --> 00:54:10.559 I don't want to say Rose was sort of always expecting the doctor to sort of dazzle her, but that's kind of the vibe. 637 00:54:10.619 --> 00:54:12.840 Yeah, yeah, like give me some spock. 638 00:54:12.900 --> 00:54:13.920 Yeah, exactly. 639 00:54:13.980 --> 00:54:15.900 Whereas Martha wants to know who he is. 640 00:54:15.960 --> 00:54:21.719 It's like the fundamental difference between like when you're like a teenager and you're dating somebody and it's all just the show. 641 00:54:21.719 --> 00:54:26.760 And then you get older and you realise, no, what matters is who you are. 642 00:54:26.820 --> 00:54:33.179 Like fundamentally underneath, I want to know what's going on inside you and I don't really care about the trappings. 643 00:54:33.239 --> 00:54:37.380 Those are great, but a lot of people have nice bodies or good suits. 644 00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:40.139 Like what she wants to know is who he is underneath. 645 00:54:40.199 --> 00:54:41.820 And I think that's quite interesting. 646 00:55:10.500 --> 00:55:14.159 Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week. 647 00:55:14.219 --> 00:55:22.019 We'll be back next week in old New York for an old fashioned depression era alien invasion in Daleks in Manhattan. 648 00:55:22.079 --> 00:55:33.179 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us at FlightthroughEntirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and at FTE podcast on Twitter. 649 00:55:33.239 --> 00:55:49.559 You can also find our series 11 flashcast, Jody interterra, at Jody interterra.com, and at Jody interterra on Twitter, and our James Bond commentary podcast, Bondfinger at bondfinger.com, at bondfinger on Facebook, and at bondfingercast on Twitter. 650 00:55:49.619 --> 00:55:51.780 Where can people find you, Eric? 651 00:55:51.840 --> 00:56:00.659 People can find me at SJC off tonight on Twitter, at SJC-A-U-S-T-E-N-I-T-E, or you can take a listen to one of my podcasts. 652 00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:08.219 I have a Doctor Who podcast called The Real McCoy, where we look at all of the 7th doctor stories, including some of the non-television ones. 653 00:56:08.280 --> 00:56:11.579 Um, and then more long-term. 654 00:56:11.639 --> 00:56:13.619 I have been doing a show called The Raiders Room. 655 00:56:13.679 --> 00:56:26.940 We originally did, we look at all the writers of classic Doctor Who, that took about 5 years, and now we're doing an American television show called The Outer Limits, which is a classic of sci-fi television, and we're about halfway through our 1st year of that. 656 00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:29.280 So, the real McCoy pod. 657 00:56:29.340 --> 00:56:32.159 And the writer's room, colon, the outer limit. 658 00:56:32.219 --> 00:56:35.099 You can find it wherever you find good podcast and on Twitter. 659 00:56:35.159 --> 00:56:36.300 Brandon Gasp. 660 00:56:36.360 --> 00:56:41.099 Audible, audible gasp there, listeners, because the outer limits is fantastic. 661 00:56:41.159 --> 00:56:43.980 I will be devouring that. 662 00:56:44.039 --> 00:56:44.880 Thank you, Eric. 663 00:56:44.940 --> 00:56:45.960 And the podcast. 664 00:56:46.559 --> 00:56:49.079 Thank you very much for joining us, Eric. 665 00:56:49.139 --> 00:56:50.400 It's been great Thank you, Eric. 666 00:56:50.460 --> 00:56:51.480 This has been super fun. 667 00:56:51.539 --> 00:56:52.320 Thank you guys for having me. 668 00:56:52.380 --> 00:56:58.559 So, until next time, may you cling to that old rugged cross and exchange it someday for a crown. 669 00:56:58.619 --> 00:57:00.840 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 670 00:57:00.900 --> 00:57:01.679 Good night. 671 00:57:01.679 --> 00:57:02.039 Good night. 672 00:57:02.099 --> 00:57:02.639 Do it off. 673 00:57:05.760 --> 00:57:11.039 That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones, James Selwood, and Eric Stadnick. 674 00:57:11.099 --> 00:57:14.760 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings Performance by Jane Orberg. 675 00:57:14.820 --> 00:57:21.059 This episode, Deeply Platonic, was recorded on the 4th of August 2019, and released on the 29th of September. 676 00:57:25.019 --> 00:57:32.699 You know, people are always saying that there's no such thing as macra, but for me the macra have always just been the friends we made along the way. 677 00:57:32.760 --> 00:57:36.119 Now, where did I put that hydrocortisone? 678 00:57:39.179 --> 00:57:49.440 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that combines theology, literary criticism and massive computer-generated crabs. 679 00:57:49.559 --> 00:57:50.760 I'm Nathan. 680 00:57:50.820 --> 00:57:51.599 I'm James. 681 00:57:51.659 --> 00:57:52.380 I'm Brendan. 682 00:57:52.440 --> 00:57:53.400 And I'm Eric. 683 00:57:53.519 --> 00:57:54.960 Brilliant. 684 00:57:55.019 --> 00:57:55.500 Excellent. 685 00:57:55.559 --> 00:57:57.840 Well, the air stinks. 686 00:57:57.900 --> 00:58:01.980 We're trapped in a tiny room and we seem to be going round and round in circles. 687 00:58:02.099 --> 00:58:10.440 So either it's just everyday life in a late capitalist society or we're discussing our next Doctor Who episode, Gridlock. 688 00:58:11.519 --> 00:58:13.320 Hold on a sec. 689 00:58:13.380 --> 00:58:14.639 Yours are computer generated. 690 00:58:15.599 --> 00:58:18.179 Damn, I knew I was doing that wrong. 691 00:58:18.539 --> 00:58:21.780 Mark it 40 seconds before the 1st crabs joke. 692 00:58:21.840 --> 00:58:22.440 Yeah. 693 00:58:22.440 --> 00:58:25.860 Much like the real thing. 694 00:58:25.920 --> 00:58:31.980 You have to get them out quickly. of this is staying in. 695 00:58:32.039 --> 00:58:34.800 This is literally the only reason I'm hit. 696 00:58:35.699 --> 00:58:37.920 That's why we're still friends. 697 00:58:39.300 --> 00:58:42.000 I'm gonna put my card straight on the table.