WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 12:54:48

1
00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:39.299
Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

2
00:00:39.299 --> 00:00:43.200
the only Doctor Who podcast, the combined theology, literary

3
00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:46.560
criticism, and massive computer generated crabs.

4
00:00:46.619 --> 00:00:47.759
I'm Nathan.

5
00:00:47.820 --> 00:00:48.539
I'm James.

6
00:00:48.600 --> 00:00:49.439
I'm Brendan.

7
00:00:49.500 --> 00:00:50.460
And I'm Eric.

8
00:00:50.520 --> 00:00:52.200
Well, the air stinks.

9
00:00:52.259 --> 00:00:55.140
We're trapped in a tiny room and we seem to be going round and

10
00:00:55.140 --> 00:00:56.399
round in circles.

11
00:00:56.460 --> 00:01:01.079
So either it's just everyday life in a late capitalist society, or

12
00:01:01.079 --> 00:01:04.799
we're discussing our next Doctor Who episode, gridlock.

13
00:01:18.540 --> 00:01:21.480
I'm gonna put my cards straight on the table.

14
00:01:21.540 --> 00:01:26.939
This is, for me, one of Russell's best scripts, I think, and

15
00:01:26.939 --> 00:01:29.400
possibly my favourite episode.

16
00:01:29.459 --> 00:01:32.819
So I'm desperate for some kind of counterpoint to that.

17
00:01:33.060 --> 00:01:35.040
I think it's really good.

18
00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:38.819
It's another example of Doctor Who.

19
00:01:39.000 --> 00:01:42.840
Using a situation where, you know, you may be able to poke holes

20
00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:45.959
in the realism of it, but it's not about the realism of the

21
00:01:45.959 --> 00:01:46.379
situation.

22
00:01:46.439 --> 00:01:47.879
It's about what the situation represents.

23
00:01:48.780 --> 00:01:51.599
You're not going to get any disagreement from me.

24
00:01:51.659 --> 00:01:53.280
Oh, Eric.

25
00:01:53.340 --> 00:01:58.439
No, yeah, no, I, when asked to come on, I, this was one of the

26
00:01:58.439 --> 00:02:02.280
episodes I asked to have because it's, it certainly, I think

27
00:02:02.280 --> 00:02:06.480
Russell's best standalone episode, um, that does a traditional

28
00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:09.900
Doctor Who style thing, um, isn't part of a finale or whatever.

29
00:02:09.960 --> 00:02:14.699
And it is magnificent, I think, in almost every capacity.

30
00:02:14.819 --> 00:02:18.120
There are a few small equivables you can have with it, I think, but

31
00:02:18.120 --> 00:02:22.199
it's fundamentally just amazing from top to bottom start to

32
00:02:22.199 --> 00:02:22.379
finish.

33
00:02:22.500 --> 00:02:23.879
So.

34
00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:25.259
We all love this idea.

35
00:02:25.319 --> 00:02:25.500
Okay.

36
00:02:25.560 --> 00:02:27.539
Well, thank you very much for listening and good night.

37
00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:32.879
Well, the idea that podcasts need dissension and argument to be

38
00:02:32.879 --> 00:02:33.240
interesting.

39
00:02:33.300 --> 00:02:34.500
I think is utter nonsense.

40
00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:37.319
Yeah, I disagree with that viewpoint as well.

41
00:02:37.919 --> 00:02:39.479
Well done.

42
00:02:42.539 --> 00:02:45.240
Will fight you for dissension.

43
00:02:45.900 --> 00:02:50.099
So we don't normally go through the episode beat by beat or

44
00:02:50.099 --> 00:02:52.199
anything like that, but I do think it's kind of worth starting

45
00:02:52.199 --> 00:02:56.819
with the opening given that we're now 3 episodes into the season.

46
00:02:56.879 --> 00:03:00.900
Let's look perhaps at how Martha and the doctor's relationship is

47
00:03:00.900 --> 00:03:01.319
developed.

48
00:03:02.159 --> 00:03:06.659
Yeah, we have we have an interesting 1st scene here where

49
00:03:06.659 --> 00:03:11.039
obviously, Martha is keen to stay around, but the doctor is also

50
00:03:11.039 --> 00:03:13.560
keen to take her on one more trip.

51
00:03:13.620 --> 00:03:18.599
He sort of rationalising out loud how he can keep her on board the

52
00:03:18.599 --> 00:03:19.740
Tartars for a bit longer.

53
00:03:19.740 --> 00:03:23.039
And, you know, she just says, well, that's fine by me.

54
00:03:23.099 --> 00:03:28.439
And I find that very nice that, you know, he's been the one saying

55
00:03:28.439 --> 00:03:31.139
to her, oh, you know, I'll take you home, like last week we had

56
00:03:31.139 --> 00:03:33.659
that horrible scene where he says, oh, you know, you don't know

57
00:03:33.659 --> 00:03:34.199
what's going on.

58
00:03:34.259 --> 00:03:35.219
I'll take you home tomorrow.

59
00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:36.180
Yeah.

60
00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:40.259
Whereas here it's him kind of going like, oh, yeah, I like hanging

61
00:03:40.259 --> 00:03:40.680
out with you.

62
00:03:40.740 --> 00:03:42.840
Yeah, let's let's keep this thing going on.

63
00:03:42.900 --> 00:03:45.060
And I love that Freema plays it very cool.

64
00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:47.879
Like she's obviously bursting at the opportunity, but she's just

65
00:03:47.879 --> 00:03:48.719
like, yeah, okay, fine.

66
00:03:48.780 --> 00:03:51.240
I don't think he wants to admit that though.

67
00:03:51.300 --> 00:03:54.599
Like I think he's still visibly kind of pushing her away.

68
00:03:54.780 --> 00:03:59.460
I think he's a massive... podcast.

69
00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:05.159
He's a bit of a jerk to a massive tool.

70
00:04:05.219 --> 00:04:06.240
Yeah.

71
00:04:06.300 --> 00:04:08.400
We're leaping that alone.

72
00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:13.379
It's interesting because you're right.

73
00:04:13.439 --> 00:04:17.639
He does seem, he's eager to have someone, but he doesn't seem to

74
00:04:17.639 --> 00:04:21.660
care who the someone is, which is what's very distressing about

75
00:04:21.660 --> 00:04:25.560
this moment in the tense doctor sort of lifecycle, as it were.

76
00:04:25.620 --> 00:04:29.040
And it becomes kind of the emotional core of the episode later

77
00:04:29.040 --> 00:04:30.839
where they both sort of have their moments.

78
00:04:30.899 --> 00:04:34.019
Martha and the doctor where they realise they don't know this

79
00:04:34.019 --> 00:04:34.560
other person.

80
00:04:34.620 --> 00:04:38.279
They don't kind of know why they're in this situation except that

81
00:04:38.279 --> 00:04:41.519
people are lying to each other and people are treating each other

82
00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:46.680
badly and now, you know, the doctor says, I, uh, I think it's the

83
00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:48.360
cat man whose name I'm currently forgetting.

84
00:04:48.420 --> 00:04:50.399
Because this Martha must mean a lot to.

85
00:04:50.519 --> 00:04:52.139
Yeah, yes, Branigan. you.

86
00:04:52.199 --> 00:04:56.819
Yeah, and she actually has a similar conversation with Milo and

87
00:04:56.819 --> 00:04:57.300
Sheen.

88
00:04:57.360 --> 00:05:01.740
Yeah. where she says sometimes I think he likes me. sometimes I

89
00:05:01.740 --> 00:05:03.480
think he just needs someone.

90
00:05:03.540 --> 00:05:08.100
And I mean, that's kind of resonant given what Donna told him in

91
00:05:08.100 --> 00:05:09.360
the runaway bride.

92
00:05:09.420 --> 00:05:13.079
And I guess we haven't really been thinking about that, but maybe

93
00:05:13.079 --> 00:05:16.139
he's doing what Donna told him.

94
00:05:16.199 --> 00:05:18.180
And I mean, he clicked with Donna immediately.

95
00:05:18.180 --> 00:05:19.680
He invited her on board.

96
00:05:19.740 --> 00:05:22.680
Whereas here it was always just kind of provisional.

97
00:05:22.740 --> 00:05:28.019
Yeah, and I think part of the reason it's provisional is as when

98
00:05:28.019 --> 00:05:29.759
you've been through any breakup.

99
00:05:29.819 --> 00:05:34.500
You know, you are still going to crave companionship, possibly

100
00:05:34.500 --> 00:05:39.060
even more so as a result of the breakup, but most people in that

101
00:05:39.060 --> 00:05:43.079
situation would then would then push against that a bit and go

102
00:05:43.079 --> 00:05:44.220
okay, well this could hurt again.

103
00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:48.180
I could go through the same separation I've been through.

104
00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:51.779
And I think that's the tension of the doctor here, and he's not

105
00:05:51.779 --> 00:05:54.060
considering how Martha feels about it at all.

106
00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:54.839
No.

107
00:05:54.839 --> 00:05:59.100
It's entirely sort of companion as adjunct to him.

108
00:05:59.160 --> 00:06:01.139
He even says I was showing off.

109
00:06:01.199 --> 00:06:06.120
Yeah, you know, and I don't even think like Martha describes it as

110
00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:10.259
a rebound, but I think it's not quite as human as that.

111
00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:11.579
It's it's him.

112
00:06:11.639 --> 00:06:13.079
It is him showing off.

113
00:06:13.139 --> 00:06:14.579
And who does he show off too?

114
00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:17.339
Well, he shows off too, the silly little humans he travels around

115
00:06:17.339 --> 00:06:18.180
the universe with.

116
00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:21.180
But this then is the story where he thinks about, well, no, hold

117
00:06:21.180 --> 00:06:21.420
on.

118
00:06:21.480 --> 00:06:24.060
She is her own person and she deserves.

119
00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:27.720
She deserves to understand who I am, what this situation is, which

120
00:06:27.720 --> 00:06:29.759
of course leads us to the last scene, but we'll talk about that

121
00:06:29.759 --> 00:06:30.000
later.

122
00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:37.259
I think that lying scene, though, is interesting in that, you know

123
00:06:37.259 --> 00:06:40.500
when Doctor Who gets brought back 2 years ago.

124
00:06:40.920 --> 00:06:45.000
Russell gets to make the choice to reinvent the character and to

125
00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:48.000
make him more haunted and a bit more mythical by making him the

126
00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:48.839
last survivor.

127
00:06:48.899 --> 00:06:51.660
And that's been a huge feature of the character.

128
00:06:51.720 --> 00:06:55.560
And now he has someone new for the 1st time. since the show came

129
00:06:55.560 --> 00:06:59.220
back and he gets to reinvent himself.

130
00:06:59.279 --> 00:07:04.920
And is he showing off or does he just want the chance not to be

131
00:07:04.920 --> 00:07:11.339
that doctor for a bit, not to be the doctor who's haunted by this

132
00:07:11.339 --> 00:07:12.420
sort of terrible past?

133
00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:15.959
Well, he says that he says that himself in dialogue.

134
00:07:16.019 --> 00:07:19.379
He says, just for a moment, I could pretend they were still

135
00:07:19.379 --> 00:07:19.800
alive.

136
00:07:19.860 --> 00:07:24.720
It's him, you know, living out that fantasy of not having to carry

137
00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:25.319
that burden.

138
00:07:25.379 --> 00:07:29.339
It's really something that Russell can write a script where the

139
00:07:29.339 --> 00:07:31.500
leads are separate from us the entire story.

140
00:07:31.620 --> 00:07:35.699
And yet it's the story that ends up binding them together as a

141
00:07:35.699 --> 00:07:36.000
unit.

142
00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:36.839
Yeah.

143
00:07:36.839 --> 00:07:40.199
So that by the time we get to the Dalek 2-parter, which is coming

144
00:07:40.199 --> 00:07:43.560
up, they feel like proper doctor and companion, it no longer feels

145
00:07:43.560 --> 00:07:48.120
like this sort of, will there, won't they sort of weird, Martha's

146
00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:49.439
not officially on board sort of thing.

147
00:07:49.500 --> 00:07:52.980
But I think, I think a lot of what everyone, you're all saying is

148
00:07:52.980 --> 00:07:56.279
great, but I do think we shouldn't overlook the fact that the

149
00:07:56.279 --> 00:07:58.920
doctor is using her in a very unpleasant way.

150
00:07:59.100 --> 00:08:03.600
If any doctor is going to be aware when a human has a crush on him

151
00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:04.439
it's the 10th doctor.

152
00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:07.259
And I think he clearly knows.

153
00:08:07.379 --> 00:08:10.379
He doesn't want to think about it or talk about it, but he knows

154
00:08:10.379 --> 00:08:12.540
partly that's why she's there.

155
00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:16.620
He knows that he's as attractive to her as the travelling in space

156
00:08:16.620 --> 00:08:16.980
and time.

157
00:08:17.220 --> 00:08:23.459
And so the fact that he's willing to do that to gratify his own

158
00:08:23.459 --> 00:08:27.480
ego, to have someone to show up with, to just to have someone, all

159
00:08:27.480 --> 00:08:32.279
of those reasons, is really speaks volumes about where the Tense

160
00:08:32.279 --> 00:08:37.139
doctor is at this moment and why maybe he was more hesitant to

161
00:08:37.139 --> 00:08:39.000
bring Martha on board than he was Donna.

162
00:08:39.059 --> 00:08:42.600
Donna made it clear from the start, no, not happening here, stick

163
00:08:42.600 --> 00:08:45.600
and sex. which is a great attitude, I think.

164
00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:46.200
That's very funny.

165
00:08:46.259 --> 00:08:49.500
Whereas Martha, from the beginning, is kind of moony-eyed.

166
00:08:49.860 --> 00:08:53.820
Um, and he's winking at her and being all charming and flirting in

167
00:08:53.820 --> 00:08:56.639
Smith and Jones and kisses her and all that, he knows.

168
00:08:56.759 --> 00:08:57.419
He knows.

169
00:08:57.480 --> 00:08:58.679
I think you're probably right.

170
00:08:58.740 --> 00:09:01.740
I'm not sure that we, because there doesn't seem to be a visible

171
00:09:01.740 --> 00:09:02.159
moment.

172
00:09:02.220 --> 00:09:06.659
You know, like Martha in Smith and Jones does a sort of eye roll

173
00:09:06.659 --> 00:09:10.980
to camera, sort of immediately after she denies that she's

174
00:09:10.980 --> 00:09:11.879
interested in him.

175
00:09:11.940 --> 00:09:15.960
And, you know, there are moments where Freema's clearly playing it

176
00:09:15.960 --> 00:09:16.860
that way.

177
00:09:16.919 --> 00:09:20.220
But there's nothing, there's no particular moment and as far as I

178
00:09:20.220 --> 00:09:24.659
can remember and nothing in dialogue, but I think that the

179
00:09:24.659 --> 00:09:26.700
behaviour has to be prompted by that.

180
00:09:26.759 --> 00:09:30.899
It's a weird choice because it does make the doctor quite

181
00:09:30.899 --> 00:09:32.220
unlikeable, I think.

182
00:09:32.279 --> 00:09:34.139
In a way that we haven't seen for a while.

183
00:09:34.200 --> 00:09:39.299
I mean, he was sort of annoying last season. but not actively

184
00:09:39.299 --> 00:09:41.039
unlikeable, like not horrible.

185
00:09:41.159 --> 00:09:44.940
And, you know, I think it's something Russell is doing

186
00:09:44.940 --> 00:09:45.659
deliberately.

187
00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:48.120
Yeah, no, I think I think I think it's right.

188
00:09:48.179 --> 00:09:48.960
I think it's deliberate.

189
00:09:49.019 --> 00:09:52.200
And whether or not he was unlikeable or just annoying in season 2

190
00:09:52.200 --> 00:09:53.519
as a matter of some debate, I think.

191
00:09:53.580 --> 00:09:58.740
But the 10th doctor's journey, such as it is, his arc is kind of

192
00:09:58.740 --> 00:10:02.940
trying to purge those elements of his character.

193
00:10:02.940 --> 00:10:05.460
And he never actually succeeds.

194
00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:12.059
The sort of the selfishness, the sort of vaingloriousness, this

195
00:10:12.059 --> 00:10:15.779
sort of desire to have the affection of these people, even though

196
00:10:15.779 --> 00:10:17.519
he knows it's not really a good idea.

197
00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:21.659
He never gets rid of it, but it's why I think a lot of people

198
00:10:21.659 --> 00:10:24.720
respond best to the 10th doctor with Donna in the 4th season

199
00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:29.340
because that part is sort of put on the side and it becomes purely

200
00:10:29.340 --> 00:10:32.879
about his hubris or the time lord and not as sort of like.

201
00:10:33.480 --> 00:10:35.700
Hey, for the 1st time ever, I'm a sexy young guy.

202
00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:37.500
This is fun.

203
00:10:37.559 --> 00:10:40.799
Let's try it He does really take advantage of that, doesn't he?

204
00:10:40.860 --> 00:10:42.419
Absolutely.

205
00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:46.379
Like in his 1st story, you've got Jackie mooning over him.

206
00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:48.600
Oh, is there anything else you've got 2 of, you know.

207
00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:52.320
Then in New Earth, when Rose kisses him.

208
00:10:52.379 --> 00:10:56.519
It's not shock so much as...

209
00:10:56.580 --> 00:10:57.120
Still got it.

210
00:10:57.179 --> 00:10:57.480
Yeah.

211
00:10:57.539 --> 00:10:58.740
Still got it.

212
00:10:58.799 --> 00:10:59.879
That's absolutely surprising.

213
00:10:59.940 --> 00:11:04.559
And Cassandra even says he's noticed you watching.

214
00:11:04.620 --> 00:11:05.340
Right.

215
00:11:05.340 --> 00:11:08.879
And yeah, he is aware of the effect.

216
00:11:08.940 --> 00:11:15.899
I'm reminded of when I was very young, Cliff Richard and Olivia

217
00:11:15.899 --> 00:11:18.360
Newton, John did an Australian tour.

218
00:11:18.360 --> 00:11:22.320
James has gave me a face of like, where is this going?

219
00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:26.519
But Cliff Richard was sort of asked, you know, you and Olivia

220
00:11:26.519 --> 00:11:27.480
working together.

221
00:11:27.539 --> 00:11:28.440
What's that like?

222
00:11:28.500 --> 00:11:31.799
And Cliff said, well, she's in love with me and I'm intrigued.

223
00:11:32.340 --> 00:11:35.159
She's a beautiful woman, probably.

224
00:11:35.220 --> 00:11:36.299
Exactly, exactly.

225
00:11:36.360 --> 00:11:38.279
The 10th doctor.

226
00:11:38.340 --> 00:11:39.840
Oh, okay, yeah, fine.

227
00:11:39.899 --> 00:11:42.240
Yeah, this fancying thing is fun.

228
00:11:42.299 --> 00:11:45.000
And then, of course, you know, when Rose goes, he's like, oh, this

229
00:11:45.000 --> 00:11:46.080
is what heartbreak is.

230
00:11:46.139 --> 00:11:46.919
Oh no.

231
00:11:46.980 --> 00:11:49.019
And then I think he has no idea.

232
00:11:49.080 --> 00:11:50.399
Yeah, he has no idea what he's doing.

233
00:11:50.460 --> 00:11:53.159
What is this human emotion called, love?

234
00:11:53.220 --> 00:11:56.279
Yeah, you know, what is this pain in my chest?

235
00:11:56.340 --> 00:11:58.559
Like, is this what you humans call friendship?

236
00:11:58.620 --> 00:12:00.720
Don't give me this Star Trek crap, Krich.

237
00:12:01.620 --> 00:12:08.700
He's not he's not being vindictive or cruel. deliberately, but

238
00:12:08.700 --> 00:12:13.919
he's kind of like he wants he wants a friend and this friend he's

239
00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:18.059
met has a crush on him and he has no idea of how to deal with it.

240
00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:20.519
So as you were saying, Eric, I think he just sort of pushes it to

241
00:12:20.519 --> 00:12:21.179
one side.

242
00:12:21.240 --> 00:12:22.559
Oh no, we're not going to talk about that now.

243
00:12:22.620 --> 00:12:23.759
We're not going to deal with that right now.

244
00:12:23.820 --> 00:12:28.559
And yeah, I mean, this story then gives him an opportunity to

245
00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:32.039
start doing that because, you know, he brings her to a place he

246
00:12:32.039 --> 00:12:35.759
knows, he knows New Earth because he was here before with Rose.

247
00:12:35.820 --> 00:12:36.360
Oh, dear.

248
00:12:36.419 --> 00:12:37.919
Yeah, no it was their 1st date.

249
00:12:37.980 --> 00:12:38.940
It was their 1st date.

250
00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:44.100
And yeah, Martha even calls him out on that, you know, rebound.

251
00:12:44.159 --> 00:12:45.899
You're taking me to all the same places you took her.

252
00:12:46.500 --> 00:12:50.100
And of course, Martha being Martha, she gets the crappy version of

253
00:12:50.100 --> 00:12:50.639
the same trip.

254
00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:52.080
Yes.

255
00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:54.120
Yeah, you've brought me to the slubs.

256
00:12:54.179 --> 00:12:55.379
She even lampshades that.

257
00:12:55.440 --> 00:12:56.519
Yeah, it's great.

258
00:12:57.360 --> 00:13:02.279
But, you know, then she's she's taken prisoner, which is a very

259
00:13:02.279 --> 00:13:04.139
sort of standard terry nation.

260
00:13:04.259 --> 00:13:05.940
Yeah, it's awesome.

261
00:13:05.940 --> 00:13:08.700
How do we make sure we don't just get back into the ship?

262
00:13:08.879 --> 00:13:16.200
And it takes the doctor from this place of, you know, being at

263
00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:18.779
best inconsiderate of her feelings.

264
00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:22.980
And putting him into a more heroic role, if he has to save this

265
00:13:22.980 --> 00:13:24.120
person, he hardly knows.

266
00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:29.519
And all but acknowledges that the only reason they are in this

267
00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:33.120
situation is that she's kind of doe-eyed for him and would follow

268
00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:35.159
him anywhere, blah, blah, and it's all his fault.

269
00:13:35.220 --> 00:13:39.840
When he calls out her name and she's being captured and it's sort

270
00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:42.179
of overplayed by tenant in a sort of fairly typical way.

271
00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:46.799
Oh, yeah, but it is his 1st it's his 1st actual sort of proper

272
00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:51.360
emotion, that it's all been surface, that it's all been kind of

273
00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:55.259
sort of calculated and with a sort of eye to the audience.

274
00:13:55.320 --> 00:13:59.639
And so, you know, I think that that's the moment where he's

275
00:13:59.639 --> 00:14:02.039
actually made at some point to care about her.

276
00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:06.840
Yeah, and I think what you say there about it all being surface is

277
00:14:06.840 --> 00:14:09.600
really beautifully sort of illustrated by the opening scene in the

278
00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:11.639
TARDIS, which we've talked about, but I just want to go back to

279
00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:18.720
because we see him go from being broody to manic doctor, and we

280
00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:19.559
know it's an act.

281
00:14:19.740 --> 00:14:23.399
We as the audience know, and Martha probably doesn't notice

282
00:14:23.399 --> 00:14:26.159
because she's too busy mooning and wooning and whatever.

283
00:14:26.220 --> 00:14:32.580
But we see him go from sort of feeling regretful and sad about the

284
00:14:32.580 --> 00:14:34.379
time lords and all that, blah, blah, blah, blah.

285
00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:37.379
But then we see him immediately go, ah, and do his big tenant

286
00:14:37.379 --> 00:14:40.019
manic energy thing, and you realise it's fake.

287
00:14:40.139 --> 00:14:43.440
And then it makes you question every other time it's happened and

288
00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:47.279
think, how often is this doctor pretending to be excited about

289
00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:47.519
things?

290
00:14:47.700 --> 00:14:53.759
Certainly, there's a moment when they're in pharmacy town and he

291
00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:56.759
gets very excited about being in the slums and the rain and that

292
00:14:56.759 --> 00:14:57.240
kind of thing.

293
00:14:57.299 --> 00:15:00.899
And there's a delivery he does that he hasn't done before, but

294
00:15:00.899 --> 00:15:06.539
that I had heard him do when he was doing the audiobook of the

295
00:15:06.539 --> 00:15:07.320
Stone Rose.

296
00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:11.879
And when he's doing the audiobook, he has to distinguish between

297
00:15:11.879 --> 00:15:14.639
the narrator and the doctor.

298
00:15:14.700 --> 00:15:18.240
And so he overplays the doctor's enthusiasm, I think.

299
00:15:18.299 --> 00:15:22.019
I mean, it just seems to me that he's even pushing it further and

300
00:15:22.019 --> 00:15:25.139
further about the surface, you know, about just creating an

301
00:15:25.139 --> 00:15:28.559
impression, that this is all about constructing a new person to be

302
00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:33.000
in order to impress Martha and that it's not at all the way that

303
00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:36.899
he would have behaved around Rose because they had a rapport.

304
00:15:37.019 --> 00:15:39.480
And because they had a sort of proper relationship with each

305
00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:39.779
other.

306
00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:42.240
Here it's all very, very calculated.

307
00:15:42.299 --> 00:15:46.440
And, you know, Tenet is very good at drawing a difference between

308
00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:51.059
the performance version of the doctor and the doctor when we see

309
00:15:51.059 --> 00:15:53.220
him sort of really honestly feeling things.

310
00:15:53.220 --> 00:15:56.220
And I think he's sort of definitely doing this here.

311
00:15:56.279 --> 00:16:00.899
And he's also very good, I would say, this episode at being

312
00:16:00.899 --> 00:16:04.740
unbelievably angry at how stupid humanity is.

313
00:16:04.860 --> 00:16:10.259
This is maybe one of the best 10th doctor looking at us as stupid

314
00:16:10.259 --> 00:16:12.000
apes episodes.

315
00:16:12.059 --> 00:16:15.539
Not only with the anger at the people in pharmacy town where he

316
00:16:15.539 --> 00:16:17.639
sort of shrieks and bellows at them.

317
00:16:17.700 --> 00:16:21.960
But then the moment in the car where he's on their Phoebe radio to

318
00:16:21.960 --> 00:16:27.360
the Casini sisters, and he, he just keeps hammering home the point

319
00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:29.100
that you're all stupid.

320
00:16:29.100 --> 00:16:32.759
And you've all been telling yourself these lies, and you won't

321
00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:34.620
know their lies, but you won't face the truth.

322
00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:37.559
And he's like, ever won police car, ever won, any, anything

323
00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:38.700
official ever.

324
00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:41.279
And he just keeps going and they're all telling him to stop.

325
00:16:41.340 --> 00:16:43.019
They all clearly have gotten the point.

326
00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:46.799
But he won't, because he's not done making them feel stupid yet.

327
00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:51.720
It's it's an interesting portrait of the doctor in this episode.

328
00:16:51.779 --> 00:16:55.080
I quite like it, but it is not, it is not happy go lucky tenant.

329
00:17:04.140 --> 00:17:06.900
Let's move on and talk about the world that's presented here

330
00:17:06.900 --> 00:17:09.900
because I think that that's by far the most interesting part of

331
00:17:09.900 --> 00:17:10.559
the episode.

332
00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:14.460
And I want to kind of talk about a conversation that we've just

333
00:17:14.460 --> 00:17:14.940
come from.

334
00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:17.460
And this is a conversation at the pub.

335
00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:22.259
And this is a conversation that we've actually had in our The Girl

336
00:17:22.259 --> 00:17:25.740
in the Fireplace episode with Simon.

337
00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:32.279
And I have a number of friends who dislike this episode and the

338
00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:38.160
peg on which they want to hook their dislike is the fact that they

339
00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:40.380
can't believe the world that's created.

340
00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:46.079
And in particular what they can't believe is the length of time

341
00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:51.420
that people are prepared to spend in the traffic jam.

342
00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:55.380
And we 1st hear about it, I think, from Martha.

343
00:17:56.400 --> 00:18:01.920
It comes from the moment where Martha's in the car with Milo and

344
00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:07.079
Sheen, and they talk about their plans for the unborn child that

345
00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:10.799
they have, and they say that it's going to take them 6 years to

346
00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:13.019
get to, what, New Brooklyn or something.

347
00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:17.039
And she's horrified.

348
00:18:17.099 --> 00:18:21.359
And then later the doctors on the CB radio to the Cassini sisters

349
00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:25.140
and they say that they've been on the most way for 22 years.

350
00:18:25.140 --> 00:18:30.059
Yes, yeah, yeah, 23 years, we were among the first.

351
00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:30.599
Yeah.

352
00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:34.859
And we find out in the chronology of the episode that it's been 30

353
00:18:34.859 --> 00:18:37.680
years since the doctor has been here.

354
00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:43.079
But yeah, the virus hit, I think, 24 years ago. 24 years ago.

355
00:18:43.140 --> 00:18:43.859
Yeah.

356
00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:49.019
Yeah, and on that idea that, you know, this world is unrealistic.

357
00:18:49.079 --> 00:18:54.900
My thought on that is, you know, at the moment, it is very hard to

358
00:18:54.900 --> 00:18:56.039
afford to buy a house.

359
00:18:56.519 --> 00:19:01.079
In many parts of the world, in many cities. especially in Sydney.

360
00:19:01.140 --> 00:19:02.039
Especially in Sydney.

361
00:19:02.099 --> 00:19:06.420
But the thing is, people still go to work and they still save

362
00:19:06.420 --> 00:19:08.880
their money and they still go talk to banks about what they can

363
00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:11.759
borrow and they still look at property guides because we want to

364
00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:16.500
believe that if we follow the prescribed program.

365
00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:19.799
In this case, the prescribed program is, okay, life isn't too good

366
00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:22.619
at the under city, but if you can just get to New Brooklyn.

367
00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:23.640
Yeah.

368
00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:26.460
You know, you'll make it New Jersey or New New Jersey.

369
00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:28.440
But, you know, everyone's trying to get there at the moment and

370
00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:30.839
that's why it's so hard to get there and that's why it takes you

371
00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:35.099
so long, but if you just have faith, you know, you'll get there.

372
00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:40.019
And everyone believes that they're the one who can get there as

373
00:19:40.019 --> 00:19:40.319
well.

374
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:46.319
So Russell T. Davies has said with the story, he didn't set out to

375
00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:47.880
write a satire about religion.

376
00:19:47.940 --> 00:19:51.720
You know, he just built this world and a lot of people see it as a

377
00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:54.359
satire of religion because it features religious songs.

378
00:19:54.420 --> 00:20:01.140
But yeah, he chose the old rugged cross because as a him type song

379
00:20:01.140 --> 00:20:04.200
it's not as religious as some.

380
00:20:04.259 --> 00:20:08.160
Not sort of not any specific denomination is mentioned.

381
00:20:08.220 --> 00:20:10.200
It's so Protestant though.

382
00:20:10.259 --> 00:20:13.619
We will get to this because I think it's super important.

383
00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:16.380
And I think that that moment in the episode is perhaps the most

384
00:20:16.380 --> 00:20:19.559
interesting one and it's the one where James and I burst into

385
00:20:19.559 --> 00:20:21.000
tears every single time we watched.

386
00:20:21.059 --> 00:20:21.660
Is that right?

387
00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:24.839
Yeah, see, whereas I don't write...

388
00:20:24.900 --> 00:20:28.259
Yeah, I think it's incredibly beautiful, but I think it is like

389
00:20:28.259 --> 00:20:31.859
you know, Russell's take on this isn't necessarily definitive, of

390
00:20:31.859 --> 00:20:32.220
course.

391
00:20:32.220 --> 00:20:37.079
And I think that his obsession with religion means that this is

392
00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:39.599
much more, in fact, than a satire of late capitalism.

393
00:20:39.660 --> 00:20:41.640
I don't think it's a satire of religion at all.

394
00:20:41.700 --> 00:20:44.519
I think it's a really interesting exploration of it.

395
00:20:44.940 --> 00:20:50.099
And in that scene, where the doctor has been badgering the Cassini

396
00:20:50.099 --> 00:20:50.759
sisters.

397
00:20:50.819 --> 00:20:55.380
One of whom, by the way, Alice, the driver, played by Bridget

398
00:20:55.380 --> 00:21:01.079
Turner, wife of Frank Cox, director of the Brink of Disaster, and

399
00:21:01.079 --> 00:21:03.059
the last 2 episode of the Sensory.

400
00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:03.839
Oh my god.

401
00:21:03.900 --> 00:21:04.799
That's real thing.

402
00:21:05.579 --> 00:21:11.099
But during that, when the song starts up in Russell's script, as

403
00:21:11.099 --> 00:21:14.700
they're singing the old rug across, the doctor actually puts a

404
00:21:14.700 --> 00:21:17.220
hand on Valerie's shoulder and she looks back at him and smiles

405
00:21:17.220 --> 00:21:19.079
and it was written as his apology.

406
00:21:19.140 --> 00:21:20.039
Right.

407
00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:22.619
And Tennant actually said in rehearsals.

408
00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:26.099
I get what you're going for, but it's like he is accepting their

409
00:21:26.099 --> 00:21:28.259
version of the situation and he doesn't.

410
00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:32.460
I feel like he, you know, he will say to them, I've got to go and

411
00:21:32.460 --> 00:21:34.140
do this.

412
00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:36.900
But tennis is like, I feel like that's the doctor saying you're

413
00:21:36.900 --> 00:21:39.480
doing the right thing when they're not, but I think we can still

414
00:21:39.480 --> 00:21:41.819
perform it like he sees their point of view.

415
00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:44.339
I think that's actually the correct way to play it.

416
00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:47.819
You know where we've seen her again?

417
00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:48.420
Where?

418
00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:51.119
She's Bill's foster mother.

419
00:21:51.180 --> 00:21:52.440
Oh, Valerie.

420
00:21:52.500 --> 00:21:53.339
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

421
00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:53.640
Yep.

422
00:21:53.700 --> 00:21:54.240
I knew that.

423
00:21:54.359 --> 00:21:55.319
I didn't realise that.

424
00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:57.779
I've seen her before.

425
00:21:57.839 --> 00:22:01.259
Yeah, the actress Jennifer Hennessy had also appeared in the 2nd

426
00:22:01.259 --> 00:22:05.220
coming. with Christopher Eccleston.

427
00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:16.740
What do you think Russell's going for in this world, Eric?

428
00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:18.720
It's tremendously complicated.

429
00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:22.500
To get, you know, I think the people who get hung up on whether or

430
00:22:22.500 --> 00:22:27.779
not it's a believable world, I think, like, really, that's the

431
00:22:27.779 --> 00:22:29.819
thing you're gonna fight this episode on?

432
00:22:29.880 --> 00:22:31.619
Like, you think it doesn't quite make sense.

433
00:22:31.680 --> 00:22:34.019
I mean, I think it makes just enough sense to be plausible.

434
00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:39.059
One does wonder what the motorway was like on day 7 of the

435
00:22:39.059 --> 00:22:40.079
lockdown, for example.

436
00:22:40.859 --> 00:22:44.160
You know, when the casini sisters 1st got on, which was a few

437
00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:47.099
years after the lockdown and the entire under city, and people

438
00:22:47.099 --> 00:22:47.759
also forget this.

439
00:22:47.819 --> 00:22:49.259
The entire under city was sealed.

440
00:22:49.319 --> 00:22:51.299
It wasn't just the motorway.

441
00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:52.799
The motorway is part of the under city.

442
00:22:52.859 --> 00:22:57.000
So there are people in in houses and in pharmacy town and all

443
00:22:57.000 --> 00:22:57.539
those other places.

444
00:22:57.660 --> 00:22:59.700
So don't forget that.

445
00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:01.259
There's and whole life.

446
00:23:01.319 --> 00:23:02.279
We only see one part of it.

447
00:23:02.339 --> 00:23:05.160
But I think that's a very silly thing to fight an episode on

448
00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:08.339
because it's Doctor Who and there's a man inside a police box

449
00:23:08.339 --> 00:23:10.619
that's bigger on the inside and just go with it for people.

450
00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:14.099
Yeah, for God's sake, I don't think, um, you know, hand of fear

451
00:23:14.099 --> 00:23:15.359
creates a believable world.

452
00:23:16.619 --> 00:23:20.279
Almost no, almost no classic theory story does, and yet they get a

453
00:23:20.279 --> 00:23:24.779
complete pass on having completely ridiculous premises and absurd

454
00:23:24.779 --> 00:23:26.759
ideas because they're classic series.

455
00:23:26.819 --> 00:23:30.059
And yet a new series story does something that's even a touch

456
00:23:30.059 --> 00:23:34.680
maybe more metaphorical and literal and people, you know, shout to

457
00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:37.380
the rooftops about, well, the moon is clearly not an egg or

458
00:23:37.380 --> 00:23:37.619
whatever.

459
00:23:37.740 --> 00:23:43.920
Some of some of the best Doctor Who is the more allegorical Doctor

460
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:44.400
Who.

461
00:23:44.579 --> 00:23:46.799
I also the Happiness Patrol.

462
00:23:46.859 --> 00:23:47.339
Yeah.

463
00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:48.299
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

464
00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:53.400
The most unrealistic, unbelievable worlds ever produced.

465
00:23:53.460 --> 00:23:57.180
Yeah, entire Earth colony said in a BBC television centre studio.

466
00:23:57.359 --> 00:23:59.160
Even outside.

467
00:23:59.220 --> 00:24:01.019
Yeah, that's right.

468
00:24:01.079 --> 00:24:04.559
I also think, too, that they get a pass because we encountered

469
00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:05.220
them when we were 10.

470
00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:08.339
I mean, at least people, you know, kind of our age.

471
00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:13.440
So that kind of slipped past our, you know, watchful dragons and

472
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:15.599
we were kind of prepared to buy that.

473
00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:18.420
Oh, just a total segue here.

474
00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:21.900
A very big Doctor Who Twitter account. don't think it was the

475
00:24:21.900 --> 00:24:22.319
official one.

476
00:24:22.380 --> 00:24:23.759
I think it might have been positive who.

477
00:24:23.819 --> 00:24:27.660
Just sent out a question this week, which is what Doctor Who

478
00:24:27.660 --> 00:24:28.859
scared you most as a child.

479
00:24:28.920 --> 00:24:31.980
So, of course, I responded Frontios, to which Nathan said, yeah

480
00:24:31.980 --> 00:24:34.319
that's the one you're not allowed to watch because it still scares

481
00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:34.619
me.

482
00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:41.279
But what sort of hit me was someone said, oh, the gas mask

483
00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:41.940
zombies.

484
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:45.900
I was 5 years old and it's like, of course there are people who

485
00:24:45.900 --> 00:24:50.460
were watching, even this story, as children who are now adults.

486
00:24:50.519 --> 00:24:51.779
I'm a school teacher.

487
00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:55.259
I got kids talking about how crappy the special effects were back

488
00:24:55.259 --> 00:24:58.380
in the old days, like 2007.

489
00:24:59.400 --> 00:25:00.779
Yeah.

490
00:25:00.779 --> 00:25:03.359
Well, some of them have been on this podcast.

491
00:25:03.420 --> 00:25:07.799
Yeah, I do have to say on the Blu-ray, the mashing around David

492
00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:09.960
Tennant when he steps out into the motorway.

493
00:25:10.019 --> 00:25:10.619
Not great.

494
00:25:10.740 --> 00:25:11.819
No, but it doesn't.

495
00:25:12.059 --> 00:25:13.140
I mean, it doesn't have to be.

496
00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:16.980
No, again, as Eric said, it just needs to be as plausible as it

497
00:25:16.980 --> 00:25:18.000
needs to be, I think.

498
00:25:18.059 --> 00:25:19.619
You know, yeah.

499
00:25:19.740 --> 00:25:23.220
Yeah, and something I find so good about it.

500
00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:28.799
And it's a minor thing, but sort of everyone in their individual

501
00:25:28.799 --> 00:25:33.180
cars having their own aesthetic, particularly the linchpin for

502
00:25:33.180 --> 00:25:36.059
that for me, is what I call the Harajuku car with the 2 young

503
00:25:36.059 --> 00:25:36.720
Asian women.

504
00:25:36.779 --> 00:25:40.619
And that's where the doctor gets the bandana and whatnot because

505
00:25:40.619 --> 00:25:44.579
of course Harajuku in Tokyo is full of people in extraordinary

506
00:25:44.579 --> 00:25:47.579
clothes and you can get extraordinary clothes from there.

507
00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:52.380
What about the white guy who has 2 racks of identical white suits

508
00:25:52.380 --> 00:25:54.240
in the carbines?

509
00:25:54.480 --> 00:25:58.859
I think my favourite one, and it's not one that the doctor jumps

510
00:25:58.859 --> 00:26:04.259
into, but it's the 2 virgins and the bondage cat.

511
00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:08.160
Oh, the black cats. with the yeah, the black leather Bethal and

512
00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:08.940
the Bethal virgins?

513
00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:09.900
Yeah, what's going on there?

514
00:26:09.960 --> 00:26:10.859
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

515
00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:13.980
Well, and what about the nude people reading the radio time?

516
00:26:14.819 --> 00:26:18.240
I mean, and I'm surprised there aren't more naked people.

517
00:26:18.299 --> 00:26:20.700
I mean, if you're in your cars and literally no one ever sees

518
00:26:20.700 --> 00:26:20.940
you.

519
00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:21.839
Come on.

520
00:26:21.900 --> 00:26:24.720
A lot of people would be naked or at least partially.

521
00:26:24.779 --> 00:26:26.880
Well, I think everyone else that we didn't see.

522
00:26:26.940 --> 00:26:28.200
They were all like it.

523
00:26:28.259 --> 00:26:30.240
It's just a coincidence, yeah.

524
00:26:30.299 --> 00:26:34.380
But the reason I love that so much and why I mentioned Herajuku is

525
00:26:34.380 --> 00:26:38.519
of course, in Japan in particular, because Japan was an

526
00:26:38.519 --> 00:26:43.559
isolationist power for so long, the 60s onwards when Western

527
00:26:43.559 --> 00:26:45.539
culture started having more of an influence there.

528
00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:52.140
You see people over there and they might be wearing an entire punk

529
00:26:52.140 --> 00:26:55.319
ensemble, like spikes sticking out of everywhere.

530
00:26:55.559 --> 00:26:58.799
But then they'll come up to you and ask where you got your t

531
00:26:58.319 --> 00:26:58.799
shirt.

532
00:26:58.859 --> 00:26:59.700
Oh, you look wonderful.

533
00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:00.480
Don't you look lovely?

534
00:27:00.539 --> 00:27:03.420
And it's kind of an aesthetic thing rather than necessarily the

535
00:27:03.420 --> 00:27:03.839
attitude.

536
00:27:03.900 --> 00:27:04.559
Yeah.

537
00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:10.319
But my in universe reason for this happening in new, new, new, new

538
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:14.400
new, New York is humanity constantly looking back across history

539
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:16.079
and adopting something from there.

540
00:27:16.140 --> 00:27:19.380
And, you know, when we get to the last guy in the stack, the

541
00:27:19.380 --> 00:27:23.039
bowler hatted guy, you know, the doctor asks for water and he says

542
00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:25.319
well, you know, no one can accuse me of not having manners.

543
00:27:25.380 --> 00:27:30.240
So he is not only aesthetically the 60s businessman on the way to

544
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:34.859
work in London, he's adopted that attitude as well, like, oh, I

545
00:27:34.859 --> 00:27:36.539
won't have guns on my ship, you know?

546
00:27:36.599 --> 00:27:39.059
But he's also sort of Trevor Sigma.

547
00:27:39.119 --> 00:27:42.539
I mean, you don't need an universe reason for him to look like

548
00:27:42.539 --> 00:27:46.019
that because we're, you know, conveying things to the current

549
00:27:46.019 --> 00:27:46.680
audience.

550
00:27:46.740 --> 00:27:50.519
But I think it's a coping mechanism because, you know, when the

551
00:27:50.519 --> 00:27:53.940
doctor starts talking about his suspicions, it's clear that the

552
00:27:53.940 --> 00:27:57.480
casinis and the Brannagans have thought about this kind of stuff

553
00:27:57.480 --> 00:27:59.339
before, but they push it aside.

554
00:27:59.400 --> 00:28:02.460
So the Brannigans push it aside with their kids and Mae pushes it

555
00:28:02.460 --> 00:28:03.720
aside with their car spotting.

556
00:28:03.779 --> 00:28:06.599
And this guy pushes it aside because stiff upper lip and all that

557
00:28:06.599 --> 00:28:07.380
I'm John Steed.

558
00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:14.339
You know, so everyone's chosen their aesthetic and decorated their

559
00:28:14.339 --> 00:28:20.759
car with it to kind of cope with this never-ending monotony of the

560
00:28:20.759 --> 00:28:21.359
motorway.

561
00:28:21.660 --> 00:28:23.460
And I think that's great.

562
00:28:23.579 --> 00:28:26.160
That people decorate their houses, though.

563
00:28:26.220 --> 00:28:29.339
Like, I mean, we decorate our houses to illustrate our

564
00:28:29.339 --> 00:28:34.319
personalities and to give us a safe place in a world which is not

565
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:36.660
always the most fun thing to be in.

566
00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:40.440
Well, like, I think that that whole point is hugely important.

567
00:28:40.500 --> 00:28:44.519
And I think the reason is that these people are trapped in a world

568
00:28:44.519 --> 00:28:47.099
that looks to us appalling and ridiculous.

569
00:28:47.160 --> 00:28:53.640
You know, that they are travelling minuscule distance every year.

570
00:28:53.700 --> 00:28:57.480
The audience is shocked when they hear that someone can be in a

571
00:28:57.480 --> 00:28:59.579
traffic jam for 23 years.

572
00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:05.160
But if we look at it as an analogue to work, which seems like an

573
00:29:05.160 --> 00:29:08.339
obvious thing to do, given that we commute to and from work, and

574
00:29:08.339 --> 00:29:11.279
we do it every day and we do it for decades and decades of our

575
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:18.960
lives, um, you know, the fact that in that situation, they are

576
00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:25.559
able to marry and have children, that they are able to conduct

577
00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:29.400
their lives in these diverse ways, and that they're able to form

578
00:29:29.400 --> 00:29:30.599
some kind of community.

579
00:29:31.140 --> 00:29:34.740
None of them seems weighed down by the situation.

580
00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:38.400
Um, That that's a positive thing.

581
00:29:38.460 --> 00:29:42.000
It's about the triumph of the human spirit through adversity

582
00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:42.359
really.

583
00:29:42.420 --> 00:29:43.019
It?

584
00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:47.099
And I think this is where I get to this sort of what is this story

585
00:29:47.099 --> 00:29:47.759
saying?

586
00:29:47.819 --> 00:29:51.480
Because I think it's not about the triumph of the human spirit so

587
00:29:51.480 --> 00:29:53.880
much, it's about the ability of the human mind to deceive itself

588
00:29:53.880 --> 00:29:57.480
in order not to confront a harsh reality, isn't it?

589
00:29:57.539 --> 00:30:00.299
I was trying to be optimistic.

590
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:04.440
I think maybe it's both, and I think that's why this episode is so

591
00:30:04.440 --> 00:30:08.099
intriguing to me is that moment that you referenced earlier with

592
00:30:08.099 --> 00:30:10.500
the old rugged cross, by the way, yes, as a Catholic, very

593
00:30:10.500 --> 00:30:11.579
Protestant, this whole thing.

594
00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:12.960
Yeah, yeah.

595
00:30:13.019 --> 00:30:17.460
That moment is both about the comfort of faith, but it's also

596
00:30:17.460 --> 00:30:18.480
about the lie of faith.

597
00:30:18.539 --> 00:30:20.759
There's no way off the motorway.

598
00:30:20.819 --> 00:30:25.079
There's no jobs going in Brooklyn or no one's ever getting to Fire

599
00:30:25.079 --> 00:30:26.400
Island, which was a funny joke.

600
00:30:26.460 --> 00:30:27.180
Yes.

601
00:30:27.180 --> 00:30:27.779
Yes.

602
00:30:27.900 --> 00:30:30.240
The laundry must be incredibly busy.

603
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:35.819
But they've all they've all convinced themselves of this idea that

604
00:30:35.819 --> 00:30:39.299
if they believe this fiction and live their lives in a very

605
00:30:39.299 --> 00:30:42.359
prescribed way, At some point, there is literally a promised

606
00:30:42.359 --> 00:30:42.720
land.

607
00:30:42.779 --> 00:30:43.380
Yeah.

608
00:30:43.380 --> 00:30:45.240
I mean, come on.

609
00:30:45.299 --> 00:30:47.220
It's not even metaphor at that point.

610
00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:48.420
The subtext would become death.

611
00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:52.079
In fact, it's worse than that, because they all know that there

612
00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:55.079
are monsters underneath the motorway, and they know that people

613
00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:56.940
are being killed and they're not thinking about that.

614
00:30:57.000 --> 00:31:00.180
As you said before, they know that there are no police.

615
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:03.180
They don't want to admit it, but they've never seen it and they're

616
00:31:03.180 --> 00:31:05.640
all shifty and evasive and they try and shut the conversation

617
00:31:05.640 --> 00:31:06.359
down.

618
00:31:06.420 --> 00:31:08.039
There's no one in authority.

619
00:31:08.099 --> 00:31:13.019
There's a terrible, terrible nightmarish monster beneath them.

620
00:31:13.079 --> 00:31:18.359
And yet inside all of that, they managed to live lives and have

621
00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:22.019
children and have relationships and have some kind of faith.

622
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:27.240
And I think that the 2 different takes on the idea that we have

623
00:31:27.240 --> 00:31:33.240
outlined are the 2 different takes that Martha and the doctor have

624
00:31:33.240 --> 00:31:34.920
on what's going on.

625
00:31:34.980 --> 00:31:40.680
So when the old rugged cross is played, Martha cries and joins

626
00:31:40.680 --> 00:31:41.039
in.

627
00:31:41.099 --> 00:31:43.680
You know, she sings it with them.

628
00:31:43.740 --> 00:31:47.640
And one of the reasons why that's so affecting is that it's

629
00:31:47.640 --> 00:31:49.859
uplifting and it's beautiful.

630
00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:54.420
But the doctor's reaction and the reason he doesn't put his hand

631
00:31:54.420 --> 00:31:56.279
on Valerie's shoulder.

632
00:31:56.339 --> 00:32:00.299
And the reason, in fact, that that galvanises him into action is

633
00:32:00.299 --> 00:32:04.859
that he knows that that's a lie, that all of that stuff is based

634
00:32:04.859 --> 00:32:06.599
on a comforting lie.

635
00:32:06.660 --> 00:32:10.920
There's no God, there's no one in authority who is coming to

636
00:32:10.920 --> 00:32:11.880
rescue you.

637
00:32:11.940 --> 00:32:15.779
And so he has to do something to help these people and partly

638
00:32:15.779 --> 00:32:20.339
because they've shown him that in spite of all of the kind of

639
00:32:20.339 --> 00:32:24.480
horror and pointlessness of the situation that they're in, that

640
00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:29.039
they haven't been crushed by it, that they've found a way of

641
00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:32.819
accommodating it and living good lives in spite of it.

642
00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:37.740
For a story written by an atheist, it's complete religious

643
00:32:37.740 --> 00:32:38.339
allegory.

644
00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:42.059
To the point where the doctor at the end leads them into the

645
00:32:42.059 --> 00:32:42.480
light.

646
00:32:42.539 --> 00:32:46.980
He takes the place of the non-existent god in their world.

647
00:32:46.980 --> 00:32:48.359
It saves them.

648
00:32:48.420 --> 00:32:50.460
Well, the future is the non-existent part.

649
00:32:50.519 --> 00:32:53.519
The 1st of all, save them, but can only do so much where they need

650
00:32:53.519 --> 00:32:54.299
a redeemer.

651
00:32:54.359 --> 00:32:57.000
And so God sent his only begotten son.

652
00:32:57.059 --> 00:32:58.440
The doctor to save them all.

653
00:32:58.500 --> 00:33:01.500
Yeah, okay, so the face of bonnet, bow is god.

654
00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:02.759
The doctor is Jesus Christ.

655
00:33:02.819 --> 00:33:06.900
Well, no, not quite, because the face of Bo dies in order to, in

656
00:33:06.900 --> 00:33:07.799
order to release them.

657
00:33:07.859 --> 00:33:10.619
So he's, you know, he's the dying saviour.

658
00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:12.839
Well, he Russell's an atheist.

659
00:33:12.900 --> 00:33:13.799
He got the metaphor confused.

660
00:33:13.859 --> 00:33:17.279
Well, like, I think, you know, Russell Russell is an atheist, but

661
00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:21.420
he is clearly fascinated by religion, and I've said before on the

662
00:33:21.420 --> 00:33:23.940
podcast that he's the person that brings proper religion to Doctor

663
00:33:23.940 --> 00:33:27.720
Who for the 1st time, that religion is not just, you know, the

664
00:33:27.720 --> 00:33:31.079
cult of Demnos or...

665
00:33:31.140 --> 00:33:31.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

666
00:33:32.039 --> 00:33:34.920
Like it's not just, you know, crazy cultists who want to sort of

667
00:33:34.920 --> 00:33:37.319
tie you to a rock and drop another rock on you.

668
00:33:37.380 --> 00:33:40.200
Or worshipping the dough deckhedron for bizarre reasons.

669
00:33:40.259 --> 00:33:41.099
Yeah, yeah.

670
00:33:41.099 --> 00:33:44.339
No, he actually has really proper people who are sort of quantum

671
00:33:44.339 --> 00:33:47.640
Presbyterians or whatever, you know, in the Church of the Tin

672
00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:48.420
vagabond.

673
00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:51.539
You know, he brings that back into the show and he's really

674
00:33:51.539 --> 00:33:52.200
interested in it.

675
00:33:52.259 --> 00:33:56.519
And he does a sort of classic Dawkinsian atheist thing in the end

676
00:33:56.519 --> 00:34:00.480
of the world where he says that no weapons or religion are

677
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:01.680
permitted on platform one.

678
00:34:01.740 --> 00:34:02.519
Do you know what I mean?

679
00:34:02.579 --> 00:34:05.220
That's a sort of standard kind of new atheist idea.

680
00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:10.800
But here I think he's so fascinated by religion that he does, I

681
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:13.139
think, deliberately use that metaphor.

682
00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:18.960
So there's a discovery, like I think we suspect, we'd never buy

683
00:34:18.960 --> 00:34:22.920
the idea that there's someone to rescue them.

684
00:34:22.980 --> 00:34:27.000
And in fact, the very opening scene, the cold open, is 2 people

685
00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:30.900
calling the police and no one answering, you know, and they get

686
00:34:30.900 --> 00:34:31.199
killed.

687
00:34:31.260 --> 00:34:33.659
So we know that there's no one.

688
00:34:33.719 --> 00:34:36.119
But then we do discover there is someone that this pointlessness

689
00:34:36.119 --> 00:34:41.760
isn't just the sort of cruel futility of the actual universe where

690
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:45.239
there's no one in charge and we're all going to die, that it has

691
00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:47.039
been set up to save them.

692
00:34:47.099 --> 00:34:50.519
And that's the sort of inherent tension in being an atheist and a

693
00:34:50.519 --> 00:34:54.239
Doctor Who writer, is Doctor Who requires people to be in horrible

694
00:34:54.239 --> 00:34:57.300
situations from which they're saved by something that resembles a

695
00:34:57.300 --> 00:35:00.119
kind of supernatural being from heaven.

696
00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:03.780
And this is the season that sort of goes back to that well and

697
00:35:03.780 --> 00:35:06.840
again and again with here, but, you know, most notably with the

698
00:35:06.840 --> 00:35:10.019
finale where, you know, Dr. Zidis has resived by everyone

699
00:35:10.019 --> 00:35:11.039
believing in him.

700
00:35:11.099 --> 00:35:14.760
I mean, and then he does a cross position as he huffers across the

701
00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:14.940
room.

702
00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:18.780
I mean, that is a serious, serious kind of grapple with the idea

703
00:35:18.780 --> 00:35:21.119
is like, how can you believe in the doctor but not believe in

704
00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:21.420
God?

705
00:35:21.480 --> 00:35:24.539
And isn't the doctors fundamentally just sort of an extension of

706
00:35:24.539 --> 00:35:28.199
the idea of there being a divine force that is stronger than all

707
00:35:28.199 --> 00:35:31.679
of us that can save us if we're just good enough and maybe a bit

708
00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:33.659
lucky, which is where the Protestant bit comes in?

709
00:35:33.719 --> 00:35:34.320
Yeah.

710
00:35:34.380 --> 00:35:38.579
But I mean, I mean, the doctor doesn't save them exactly because

711
00:35:38.579 --> 00:35:40.199
his attempts to do it fail.

712
00:35:40.260 --> 00:35:45.539
Like he throws the big lever and it only works when the face of

713
00:35:45.539 --> 00:35:48.179
both gives up his life to save them.

714
00:35:48.239 --> 00:35:52.559
So he's not putting the doctor in the god position here exactly

715
00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:55.800
but he's certainly playing with that idea.

716
00:35:55.860 --> 00:36:00.539
And I mean, he does create a world where things aren't what they

717
00:36:00.539 --> 00:36:05.820
seem, that the sort of simple, straightforward faith that the

718
00:36:05.820 --> 00:36:09.960
people on the motorway have is proven not to be right, but

719
00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:15.059
nevertheless, the deeper truth is still a kind of theistic and

720
00:36:15.059 --> 00:36:16.320
essentially Christian truth.

721
00:36:16.500 --> 00:36:19.559
It's deeply platonic is what it is.

722
00:36:19.619 --> 00:36:20.219
Yep.

723
00:36:20.219 --> 00:36:22.139
It's ripped straight from the Republic.

724
00:36:22.199 --> 00:36:26.400
We have the idea of the noble lie that people are in classes, that

725
00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:29.039
people will live this life, and that is how you keep people from

726
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:30.119
trying to fight too hard.

727
00:36:30.179 --> 00:36:34.139
The noble lies often identified with religion, and Plato initially

728
00:36:34.139 --> 00:36:37.199
do it, but he sort of hinted at it, and clearly here it's religion

729
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:39.480
but it's also the idea of the rules and the structure and the

730
00:36:39.480 --> 00:36:42.000
class system and all that, keeping everyone in place.

731
00:36:42.360 --> 00:36:47.460
Meanwhile, um, we have the allegory of the cave, they're all

732
00:36:47.460 --> 00:36:51.539
trapped in the light, and Plato says explicitly that those people

733
00:36:51.539 --> 00:36:54.300
will be so fascinated by the little images, the little holograms

734
00:36:54.300 --> 00:36:57.179
on their screen, the little things they fill their life with, that

735
00:36:57.179 --> 00:36:59.880
they won't notice or won't care, that they are completely

736
00:36:59.880 --> 00:37:02.460
oblivious to anything resembling actual truth or reality.

737
00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:06.840
They'll be so obsessed with predicting the number which will come

738
00:37:06.840 --> 00:37:08.340
next, counting the cars.

739
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:10.260
You know, they'll just not care.

740
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:13.860
And then what we have is the doctor coming in and trying to save

741
00:37:13.860 --> 00:37:16.380
them, and they fight him, just as Plato said, the people in the

742
00:37:16.380 --> 00:37:19.500
cave will fight the man who comes to try to rescue them because

743
00:37:19.500 --> 00:37:22.199
they will not want to go into the light because it'll be so bright

744
00:37:22.199 --> 00:37:24.360
it will blind them, which is exactly what happens at the end.

745
00:37:24.420 --> 00:37:25.380
Yeah.

746
00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:29.579
We see this image of the light coming down and everyone's, it's

747
00:37:29.579 --> 00:37:31.199
it's literally too bright for them to look at.

748
00:37:31.260 --> 00:37:35.039
Now, the fact that that metaphor also works for Christianity is

749
00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:37.739
sort of because Christianity found a lot of metaphors I liked and

750
00:37:37.739 --> 00:37:39.119
built it into its framework.

751
00:37:39.179 --> 00:37:40.079
Yeah.

752
00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:42.659
But fundamentally, I would say it's deeply platonic and it's this

753
00:37:42.659 --> 00:37:48.719
idea that Average people need someone else to save them because

754
00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:52.199
we're too, we're too willing to believe in the shadows.

755
00:37:52.440 --> 00:37:54.719
And so we need the doctor.

756
00:37:54.780 --> 00:38:01.019
Yeah, and that, um, that sort of platonic nature is something I

757
00:38:01.019 --> 00:38:05.639
wanted to say because even though, you know, the doctor in the

758
00:38:05.639 --> 00:38:08.820
face of Bo and Novice Haim together work to change the status quo

759
00:38:08.820 --> 00:38:13.380
and give the city back to the people, the story still ends with

760
00:38:13.380 --> 00:38:16.199
the city still singing their songs.

761
00:38:16.380 --> 00:38:17.460
It's a new song.

762
00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:21.300
It's abide with me rather than the old rugged cross, but that

763
00:38:21.300 --> 00:38:28.920
sense of community has been retained that was built as its own

764
00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:35.699
kind of faith system, if you like, and in a way, the new earth

765
00:38:35.699 --> 00:38:41.400
that we saw last time, a lot of the humans we met seem to be, you

766
00:38:41.400 --> 00:38:44.579
know, just out for themselves, like the Duke of Manhattan's

767
00:38:44.579 --> 00:38:47.579
secretary wants to get out of the hospital, even if it kills

768
00:38:47.579 --> 00:38:48.420
everyone on the planet. planet.

769
00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:57.539
Whereas now, being trapped underground for 24 years has led to

770
00:38:57.539 --> 00:39:01.440
this sense of community, and that also is very biblical, you know

771
00:39:01.440 --> 00:39:02.699
the people wandering in the desert.

772
00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:04.619
The promised land.

773
00:39:04.679 --> 00:39:06.719
Yeah, towards the promised land, yeah.

774
00:39:06.780 --> 00:39:13.800
I guess maybe the thing is the critique of people is what you were

775
00:39:13.800 --> 00:39:16.380
saying, Eric, how quickly they accommodate that.

776
00:39:16.500 --> 00:39:22.199
And that they're so willing to settle for it, that they don't

777
00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:22.739
fight for it.

778
00:39:22.800 --> 00:39:27.239
There's no kind of political movement or any hint of anything like

779
00:39:27.239 --> 00:39:31.320
that where they express dissatisfaction with what they find.

780
00:39:35.400 --> 00:39:41.039
When Brendan mentioned the doctor, the face of Bo and Nurseim, and

781
00:39:41.039 --> 00:39:44.280
realised for the 1st time that they're the Holy Trinity, we have

782
00:39:44.280 --> 00:39:47.099
the feminine feature and we have the father and the son, although

783
00:39:47.099 --> 00:39:49.380
the roles are kind of going back and forth between father and son

784
00:39:49.380 --> 00:39:52.619
but then we have the Holy Spirit being the sort of feminine force

785
00:39:52.619 --> 00:39:53.940
who's a cat in this case.

786
00:39:54.480 --> 00:39:58.739
And between the 3 of them, they're able to redeem mankind, although

787
00:39:58.739 --> 00:39:59.820
not without sacrifice.

788
00:39:59.880 --> 00:40:04.739
But I think this idea, and this kind of, you know, the idea that

789
00:40:04.739 --> 00:40:08.219
they're all satisfied, this gets into the sort of more Marxist

790
00:40:08.219 --> 00:40:12.179
late capitalist critique, which was very similar to what he did in

791
00:40:12.179 --> 00:40:13.320
New Earth with his society.

792
00:40:13.380 --> 00:40:17.579
And he had hints of it in, um, end of the world as well.

793
00:40:17.639 --> 00:40:19.619
But it's interesting...

794
00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:23.519
Yeah, the great and good, and the idea that Rose would talk to the

795
00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:24.059
plumber.

796
00:40:24.119 --> 00:40:24.960
I don't remember her name.

797
00:40:25.019 --> 00:40:26.039
Raffallo.

798
00:40:26.099 --> 00:40:26.820
Raffello.

799
00:40:26.880 --> 00:40:28.980
Rafalo, like not many people would talk to me.

800
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:30.239
Mark Rafallo.

801
00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:34.139
It'd be great if there were just Minecraft, low and Blueface.

802
00:40:35.820 --> 00:40:41.039
But this idea that the future is not some sort of communist utopia

803
00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:44.880
in fact, it's this late capitalism that people like to talk about

804
00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:46.619
as being the moment we're currently living in.

805
00:40:46.679 --> 00:40:48.480
Now this extends for 5000000000 more years.

806
00:40:48.539 --> 00:40:49.199
Yeah.

807
00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:53.099
This is just how it is and it gets worse and worse and worse.

808
00:40:53.159 --> 00:40:57.960
And, you know, the elite will exploit the common people more and

809
00:40:57.960 --> 00:40:58.320
more.

810
00:40:58.380 --> 00:41:02.699
And the common people will never, ever, ever rise up against them

811
00:41:02.699 --> 00:41:06.539
because they'll have something to keep them occupied.

812
00:41:06.659 --> 00:41:10.500
This small little, oh, we made 20 yards last week.

813
00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:11.460
Great. awesome.

814
00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:14.579
They'll convince themselves they're reaching towards some goal.

815
00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:18.000
Meanwhile, people above are theoretically flying around on their

816
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:19.199
jetpacks and doing whatever.

817
00:41:19.320 --> 00:41:22.440
But of course, in this case, they're all gone.

818
00:41:22.500 --> 00:41:24.239
Like those people aren't there anymore.

819
00:41:24.300 --> 00:41:27.300
Certainly in New Earth, where you have a whole class of people

820
00:41:27.300 --> 00:41:31.860
being sort of viciously immiserated by rich people who are mostly

821
00:41:31.860 --> 00:41:33.840
getting cosmetic treatments upstairs.

822
00:41:33.900 --> 00:41:37.260
Like that's super clear there, I think.

823
00:41:37.320 --> 00:41:42.840
But here, by taking the oppressors away and just making it a kind

824
00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:43.860
of accident.

825
00:41:43.980 --> 00:41:46.559
I think there's something interesting about that.

826
00:41:46.619 --> 00:41:48.780
The revolution happened in spite of them.

827
00:41:48.840 --> 00:41:49.860
Yeah.

828
00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:50.460
Yeah.

829
00:41:50.519 --> 00:41:53.519
Well, they brought their own revolution on themselves through

830
00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:54.119
bliss.

831
00:41:54.179 --> 00:41:58.019
You know, they already had everything they could ever need, but

832
00:41:58.019 --> 00:42:00.659
they wanted to take away whatever little stress they had.

833
00:42:01.019 --> 00:42:06.000
I have to say, like, um, something that struck me watching it

834
00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:09.480
again, was, you know, Novasheim says there was a new mood, bliss

835
00:42:09.480 --> 00:42:13.380
and in my head, I'd remember it as, and, you know, they just

836
00:42:13.380 --> 00:42:15.179
lethargied themselves to death.

837
00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:18.059
But it's like, no, there was a new mood bliss.

838
00:42:18.119 --> 00:42:20.099
And then there was this virus and we couldn't we couldn't contain

839
00:42:20.099 --> 00:42:20.340
it.

840
00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:22.860
It's like, did Bliss become the...

841
00:42:22.980 --> 00:42:23.159
No?

842
00:42:23.219 --> 00:42:26.280
Okay, it was a separate virus, but then they didn't do it.

843
00:42:26.340 --> 00:42:28.500
And then it killed the world in 7 minutes flat.

844
00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:30.539
Well, it doesn't particularly matter if they're blissed out then

845
00:42:30.539 --> 00:42:30.900
does it?

846
00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:32.039
There's not much they could do.

847
00:42:32.099 --> 00:42:35.039
And what they did do was save a bunch of people.

848
00:42:35.159 --> 00:42:38.280
Yeah, the mood could have been slightly peckish.

849
00:42:38.340 --> 00:42:40.380
It doesn't really matter.

850
00:42:40.440 --> 00:42:42.300
Yeah, I think you're right.

851
00:42:42.360 --> 00:42:45.840
I think he kind of missed a trick to her going and I, um, the last

852
00:42:45.840 --> 00:42:49.019
Gregarians and the Odyssey, the, the, the opium metres, essentially

853
00:42:49.019 --> 00:42:51.360
the ones who just keep eating the poppies and that's their entire

854
00:42:51.360 --> 00:42:51.659
life.

855
00:42:51.719 --> 00:42:54.539
That would have been a fine metaphor, I think, for the sort of

856
00:42:54.539 --> 00:42:55.980
indolence of the upper classes.

857
00:42:56.039 --> 00:43:00.000
But instead, yeah, he has this idea of the super virus, um, that

858
00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:02.760
mutates and becomes airborne and kills everyone on the planet in 7

859
00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:05.219
minutes, which is really fast.

860
00:43:06.179 --> 00:43:11.820
And, and he, he really sticks that idea and I think, I think it's

861
00:43:11.820 --> 00:43:13.619
one of my main quibbles with the episode of it.

862
00:43:13.739 --> 00:43:20.460
It feels, it feels like he added that to be less judgemental, maybe

863
00:43:20.460 --> 00:43:21.599
of the people who died.

864
00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:28.980
And to make them more victims instead of I don't know, instead of

865
00:43:28.980 --> 00:43:30.900
like the rich jerks they probably were.

866
00:43:31.079 --> 00:43:35.460
It also strikes me that maybe, you know, during a script meeting

867
00:43:35.460 --> 00:43:38.639
Julie Gardner or Phil Collins and said, okay, so they've got this

868
00:43:39.059 --> 00:43:42.000
they got this mood bliss, but surely not everyone will be taking

869
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:42.420
out.

870
00:43:42.480 --> 00:43:43.380
Oh, well, fine, Julie.

871
00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:44.039
That was a virus.

872
00:43:49.079 --> 00:43:52.199
Can we go for a cigarette now at very time?

873
00:43:53.340 --> 00:43:55.019
Don't do that.

874
00:43:56.880 --> 00:43:59.519
No, don't go for a cigarette now, kids.

875
00:43:59.579 --> 00:44:01.800
You know, just have some happy happy.

876
00:44:01.920 --> 00:44:03.900
No, do not have happy, happy.

877
00:44:03.960 --> 00:44:04.980
I did not endorse that.

878
00:44:05.039 --> 00:44:08.219
Yeah, and it's also, but it does make you wonder, like, what was

879
00:44:08.219 --> 00:44:12.000
what was bliss that wasn't happy, happy or, you know, any of the

880
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:12.539
other moods.

881
00:44:12.599 --> 00:44:14.820
And also honesty, sorry, is not a mood.

882
00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:17.460
That's a dumb, that's a dumb little trick that he does to make it

883
00:44:17.460 --> 00:44:18.360
clear that she's not lying.

884
00:44:18.420 --> 00:44:21.300
There's no reason why someone would wear an honesty patch.

885
00:44:21.360 --> 00:44:23.159
It's just a cheap trick.

886
00:44:23.219 --> 00:44:24.659
And it gets a laugh.

887
00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:27.539
I think that that's just one of those things where his desire to

888
00:44:27.539 --> 00:44:31.860
have a funny close-up, uh, kind of overcomes the world building

889
00:44:31.860 --> 00:44:32.699
instinct.

890
00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:33.179
Yeah.

891
00:44:33.179 --> 00:44:37.679
And I think the, you know, just throwing the entire upper class

892
00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:43.320
away with just some convenient lines of dialogue is just sort of

893
00:44:43.320 --> 00:44:46.860
getting getting the world to be the shape that he wants it to be

894
00:44:46.860 --> 00:44:51.300
in for the sake of the point he's trying to make, I think.

895
00:44:51.360 --> 00:44:54.780
It was a virus 200 years ago and it killed everyone who knew how

896
00:44:54.780 --> 00:44:55.920
to make Androids.

897
00:44:55.980 --> 00:44:59.099
That's it Yeah.

898
00:44:59.099 --> 00:45:01.679
And that is my favourite story.

899
00:45:01.739 --> 00:45:03.119
But even I can say, really?

900
00:45:03.179 --> 00:45:03.780
Yeah.

901
00:45:07.139 --> 00:45:12.420
Did you know that Bridget Turner, who plays Alice?

902
00:45:12.480 --> 00:45:14.400
Frank King's wife.

903
00:45:14.460 --> 00:45:15.360
Apart.

904
00:45:15.420 --> 00:45:15.960
Yes, yes, yes.

905
00:45:16.019 --> 00:45:21.840
She was also John Cleese's 1st choice for Sybil. about that?

906
00:45:21.900 --> 00:45:23.099
But she said no.

907
00:45:23.639 --> 00:45:25.380
But she did this.

908
00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:28.199
No, John, I know what you're like.

909
00:45:28.260 --> 00:45:31.260
I've got one extra piece of information about the macra.

910
00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:33.480
Oh, well, we haven't even talked about the Mac.

911
00:45:33.539 --> 00:45:36.119
We talked about the macro. their name.

912
00:45:36.179 --> 00:45:38.340
Yeah, there are no such things.

913
00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:42.300
Look, pretty much, it started like, you know, Russell went, I need

914
00:45:42.300 --> 00:45:46.440
some kind of monster, and his initial thought for the under city

915
00:45:46.440 --> 00:45:48.059
was it's where the city meets the sea.

916
00:45:48.119 --> 00:45:50.400
So he was thinking sea creatures.

917
00:45:50.519 --> 00:45:54.900
So his 1st thought was actually a Godzilla style sea lizard.

918
00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:57.780
That eats cars.

919
00:45:57.840 --> 00:46:00.599
But then he started thinking about squids.

920
00:46:00.780 --> 00:46:04.320
And then he started thinking about crabs and went, hold on.

921
00:46:04.440 --> 00:46:05.639
We've done crabs.

922
00:46:05.699 --> 00:46:06.780
We've done crabs.

923
00:46:06.840 --> 00:46:10.440
And so he went, well, if I'm going to have crabs, I'm going to

924
00:46:10.440 --> 00:46:15.119
make them macra, which only classic series fans will care about

925
00:46:15.119 --> 00:46:19.139
because the macraterra is one of his earliest memories of Doctor

926
00:46:19.139 --> 00:46:19.619
Who.

927
00:46:19.739 --> 00:46:22.980
And it's exactly 40 years since they appeared.

928
00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:24.000
Yeah, that's right.

929
00:46:24.059 --> 00:46:28.260
So that's why he settled on Macro, but wrote them in such a way

930
00:46:28.260 --> 00:46:33.539
which both honoured what they'd been before, but you didn't have

931
00:46:33.539 --> 00:46:35.639
to know anything about them.

932
00:46:35.699 --> 00:46:40.559
And I remember squealing. sitting on the sofa and going, ah, it's

933
00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:40.980
background.

934
00:46:41.039 --> 00:46:44.159
So, you know, I may have seen the closing credits before I saw

935
00:46:44.159 --> 00:46:47.639
anything else, so I think I may have seen macro created by Anne

936
00:46:47.639 --> 00:46:48.420
Stuart Black.

937
00:46:48.480 --> 00:46:52.800
He actually recons the macro terror because there's uncomfortable

938
00:46:52.800 --> 00:46:57.360
kind of feelings that if the it's the macros planet, then, you

939
00:46:57.360 --> 00:47:00.300
know, what the hell are all these people doing here and why is the

940
00:47:00.300 --> 00:47:03.599
doctor so happy to kill them when clearly they're being

941
00:47:03.599 --> 00:47:04.380
colonised.

942
00:47:04.440 --> 00:47:05.099
Yeah.

943
00:47:05.099 --> 00:47:10.199
But so he makes them a sort of galaxy wide plague of evil people

944
00:47:10.199 --> 00:47:11.039
who live on gas.

945
00:47:11.099 --> 00:47:12.239
Which is great.

946
00:47:12.300 --> 00:47:13.500
Yeah, crabs.

947
00:47:13.500 --> 00:47:14.340
Who are crabs?

948
00:47:14.460 --> 00:47:14.940
crabs.

949
00:47:15.059 --> 00:47:15.239
Yeah.

950
00:47:15.300 --> 00:47:19.800
It's kind of like when was it Gareth Roberts decided that bandrels

951
00:47:19.800 --> 00:47:22.079
were 50 foot high cyborgs.

952
00:47:22.139 --> 00:47:24.420
And, you know, we only ever saw the head of them.

953
00:47:24.659 --> 00:47:28.139
It's like, you know, let's take this slightly crap thing.

954
00:47:28.199 --> 00:47:30.659
And you know, make it better.

955
00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:33.960
That does remind me, though, one of the things looking at my notes

956
00:47:33.960 --> 00:47:37.980
the initial reception to this episode, at least as I can discern

957
00:47:37.980 --> 00:47:40.260
it from Wikipedia, was actually quite, quite dumb.

958
00:47:40.260 --> 00:47:42.599
You astound me.

959
00:47:42.659 --> 00:47:45.780
I know, with actually a surprising number of the reviews

960
00:47:45.780 --> 00:47:48.539
complaining that they didn't see enough of the macra.

961
00:47:48.599 --> 00:47:49.619
Oh my god.

962
00:47:49.739 --> 00:47:50.519
Yes.

963
00:47:50.579 --> 00:47:51.480
Yes.

964
00:47:51.539 --> 00:47:56.039
Or people getting fixated on very small little things.

965
00:47:56.280 --> 00:47:59.699
It's one of the clearest instances where Doctor Who fans and the

966
00:47:59.699 --> 00:48:02.400
people who write about it, especially in the heat of the moment

967
00:48:02.400 --> 00:48:04.800
can almost never see the forest for the trees.

968
00:48:04.920 --> 00:48:08.880
Like the fact that Kindo was the least popular episode of its

969
00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:12.599
season, the fact that apparently the macra not being in it enough

970
00:48:12.599 --> 00:48:15.480
made gridlock just would have an okay episode for some people.

971
00:48:15.480 --> 00:48:17.699
Like, you're idiot, people.

972
00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:23.219
You were being given masterpieces of the form and you're

973
00:48:23.219 --> 00:48:25.559
complaining about things and saying, oh, it's only 7.5 .

974
00:48:25.619 --> 00:48:28.500
Surely that should be, they couldn't see the crabs for the smoke.

975
00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:29.880
No place.

976
00:48:30.539 --> 00:48:32.340
Oh, James.

977
00:48:41.400 --> 00:48:48.239
We've got a final scene to kind of finish the arc, which we talked

978
00:48:48.239 --> 00:48:52.619
about at the beginning of the episode, and it happens all the

979
00:48:52.619 --> 00:48:54.599
while while that hymn is going on.

980
00:48:55.440 --> 00:48:58.019
Abide with me. stay with me.

981
00:48:58.440 --> 00:48:59.820
Yeah.

982
00:48:59.880 --> 00:49:03.000
And it certainly has a resonance.

983
00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:07.559
And I have, I'd said this last week, so I won't bang on too much

984
00:49:07.559 --> 00:49:10.260
but I have always liked Martha's character.

985
00:49:10.500 --> 00:49:16.440
But the moment that cements it for me in this episode is when, you

986
00:49:16.440 --> 00:49:20.159
know, she she's trying to connect with him and she's trying to get

987
00:49:20.159 --> 00:49:23.219
the doctor to talk about what is obviously traumatising for him

988
00:49:23.219 --> 00:49:27.179
about him not being alone, which means he thinks he's alone.

989
00:49:27.239 --> 00:49:28.440
So she's saying, I'm here.

990
00:49:28.500 --> 00:49:30.599
I'm ready, I'm listening.

991
00:49:30.659 --> 00:49:35.099
And he just totally rejects her and she just grabs the chair and

992
00:49:35.099 --> 00:49:36.659
right, no, we're not going.

993
00:49:36.719 --> 00:49:42.480
In fact, I'd kind of forgotten that because he doesn't drop his

994
00:49:42.480 --> 00:49:45.300
facade willingly, does he?

995
00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:49.019
She's present when the face of Beau explains who he is.

996
00:49:49.079 --> 00:49:50.219
Yeah, yeah.

997
00:49:50.280 --> 00:49:55.860
And in that, Russell had forgotten that in a book Justin Richards

998
00:49:55.860 --> 00:49:58.800
wrote, because for the 1st 4 years of the new series, Justin

999
00:49:58.800 --> 00:50:02.219
Richards wrote these books like Monsters and Aliens, Enemies and

1000
00:50:02.219 --> 00:50:03.239
Allies, et cetera.

1001
00:50:03.300 --> 00:50:07.920
And in one of them, Russell had written this historical text

1002
00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:12.420
translation that says, you know, the face of Bo will live a long

1003
00:50:12.420 --> 00:50:15.539
time and then the sky will crack asunder and he will speak his

1004
00:50:15.539 --> 00:50:19.559
final secret to the alien wanderer without a home.

1005
00:50:19.860 --> 00:50:24.360
And when Russell sent off the script to Justin Richards for

1006
00:50:24.360 --> 00:50:27.840
writing the next book, Justin said, oh, wow, it's so great you

1007
00:50:27.840 --> 00:50:29.940
remembered that thing you wrote for me last year and Russell said

1008
00:50:29.940 --> 00:50:30.179
what?

1009
00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:31.559
Sorry what?

1010
00:50:31.619 --> 00:50:36.059
And, you know, Russell Liston said, it was a total coincidence, you

1011
00:50:36.059 --> 00:50:39.119
know, the roof opened and we can interpret that as a skycracking

1012
00:50:39.119 --> 00:50:39.659
asunder.

1013
00:50:39.719 --> 00:50:41.460
Because I don't remember what I write.

1014
00:50:41.820 --> 00:50:45.239
Yeah, but I think you're right that it's important that Martha is

1015
00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:49.019
there for their revelation, as it were, because otherwise the

1016
00:50:49.019 --> 00:50:51.360
doctor would have continued to keep her at bay.

1017
00:50:51.420 --> 00:50:55.079
He would have kept her, but she's there and she hears it and she

1018
00:50:55.079 --> 00:50:56.880
knows that he's lying about something.

1019
00:50:56.940 --> 00:51:01.619
She's pretty in the dark as to what actually the truth might be

1020
00:51:01.619 --> 00:51:04.500
but she knows he's just lying to her, straight up lying to her.

1021
00:51:04.559 --> 00:51:09.179
And she realises that in that moment, I need to either press this

1022
00:51:09.179 --> 00:51:13.139
or else I just let him take me home and end this.

1023
00:51:13.199 --> 00:51:18.300
Um, whether it's the right decision to make for her emotionally is

1024
00:51:18.300 --> 00:51:21.480
questionable, especially given her her great speech at the very

1025
00:51:21.480 --> 00:51:22.380
end when she does leave.

1026
00:51:22.440 --> 00:51:25.980
That she kind of kept trying to invest in something that was never

1027
00:51:25.980 --> 00:51:26.639
going to be.

1028
00:51:26.940 --> 00:51:31.739
But I think it provides a really wonderful moment where they do

1029
00:51:31.739 --> 00:51:32.699
come together.

1030
00:51:32.760 --> 00:51:36.059
And what I love most about it is she just listens.

1031
00:51:36.780 --> 00:51:40.920
Um, Martha just listens to him talk about Galifre.

1032
00:51:40.980 --> 00:51:43.980
She doesn't, she asked a few very basic questions, but it's kind

1033
00:51:43.980 --> 00:51:48.780
of like therapy where she just sort of gets him to finally say

1034
00:51:48.780 --> 00:51:50.039
what he won't say.

1035
00:51:50.099 --> 00:51:52.380
And then once he starts, he can't stop.

1036
00:51:52.440 --> 00:51:57.480
And in fact, the speech continues sort of, and we move away from

1037
00:51:57.480 --> 00:51:57.780
it.

1038
00:51:57.840 --> 00:51:58.920
Like, he's still talking.

1039
00:51:59.039 --> 00:52:00.420
We don't hear the end of the speech.

1040
00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:03.719
We don't know how long it goes on before the camera goes up and we

1041
00:52:03.719 --> 00:52:04.619
hear the him again.

1042
00:52:04.679 --> 00:52:07.079
Well, we're speaking about the censorites earlier.

1043
00:52:07.139 --> 00:52:11.159
That's actually Susan's... about Gallifrey from the...

1044
00:52:11.219 --> 00:52:13.679
Yeah, yeah, the silver leaves, et cetera, et cetera.

1045
00:52:13.739 --> 00:52:18.599
And also, it's very interesting that, you know, Rose knows very

1046
00:52:18.599 --> 00:52:21.360
early on that he's the last of the timelords, and she knows about

1047
00:52:21.360 --> 00:52:23.159
the time war, et cetera, et cetera.

1048
00:52:23.219 --> 00:52:28.500
But we've discussed that Rose is a very self-involved character.

1049
00:52:28.559 --> 00:52:34.800
So Rose doesn't ask him about, you know, the tragedy he has

1050
00:52:34.800 --> 00:52:35.400
experienced.

1051
00:52:35.460 --> 00:52:40.199
And I think that's not necessarily Rose being self-absorbed, but

1052
00:52:40.199 --> 00:52:42.599
it's also that, you know, Rose is in love with him.

1053
00:52:42.659 --> 00:52:43.559
He's in love with her.

1054
00:52:43.619 --> 00:52:45.719
So you're not going to bring up that sad stuff.

1055
00:52:45.780 --> 00:52:48.599
But we, we don't even know it at that point.

1056
00:52:48.719 --> 00:52:50.880
So we don't know there's anything to reveal, really.

1057
00:52:50.940 --> 00:52:54.960
There's Jabe, you know, that interaction with Jabe in the end of

1058
00:52:54.960 --> 00:52:55.320
the world.

1059
00:52:55.380 --> 00:53:00.539
And the reason he tells her is that he sees her reaction to the

1060
00:53:00.539 --> 00:53:03.480
end of her own planet.

1061
00:53:03.539 --> 00:53:05.280
Yeah, but Rose never asks him.

1062
00:53:05.400 --> 00:53:05.760
No.

1063
00:53:05.760 --> 00:53:07.440
About Galifre afterwards.

1064
00:53:07.500 --> 00:53:09.300
And, you know, it's things like when he talks about having a

1065
00:53:09.300 --> 00:53:10.320
family and being a father.

1066
00:53:10.380 --> 00:53:11.099
She's like, what?

1067
00:53:11.159 --> 00:53:12.360
But then it follows up on it again.

1068
00:53:12.420 --> 00:53:14.099
I think that's it.

1069
00:53:14.099 --> 00:53:16.380
The other point there is that Rosie is supposed to be a character

1070
00:53:16.380 --> 00:53:18.420
who is a lot younger than Martha.

1071
00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:20.099
Martha is a professional.

1072
00:53:20.159 --> 00:53:21.780
She's trained to be a doctor.

1073
00:53:21.840 --> 00:53:23.699
That's not something you do in a short period of time.

1074
00:53:23.820 --> 00:53:26.099
She's, what, in her final year of med school.

1075
00:53:26.159 --> 00:53:28.679
So about 26, I think Russell envisioned her.

1076
00:53:28.739 --> 00:53:30.539
Whereas Rose is supposed to be in her late teens.

1077
00:53:30.599 --> 00:53:31.679
Yeah, she's mid-20s.

1078
00:53:31.739 --> 00:53:32.460
Rose is 19.

1079
00:53:32.639 --> 00:53:33.119
Yeah.

1080
00:53:33.179 --> 00:53:37.380
And yeah, we kind of lump the young companions all together.

1081
00:53:37.380 --> 00:53:40.079
And then we put sort of Donna as an older companion somewhere

1082
00:53:40.079 --> 00:53:40.440
else.

1083
00:53:40.500 --> 00:53:45.179
But in fact, there's big gradations between 19 and 26 or so.

1084
00:53:45.239 --> 00:53:45.960
Yes.

1085
00:53:45.960 --> 00:53:48.840
I think you're right that Martha, through both her age, and

1086
00:53:48.840 --> 00:53:52.739
probably her training as a doctor, is sort of prepared to fit and

1087
00:53:52.739 --> 00:53:58.260
let this man be vulnerable and let this man tell his story. and be

1088
00:53:58.260 --> 00:54:02.219
sad and isn't expecting him to sort of entertain her.

1089
00:54:02.280 --> 00:54:04.440
Like, It's interesting.

1090
00:54:04.500 --> 00:54:07.559
I don't want to say Rose was sort of always expecting the doctor

1091
00:54:07.559 --> 00:54:10.559
to sort of dazzle her, but that's kind of the vibe.

1092
00:54:10.619 --> 00:54:12.840
Yeah, yeah, like give me some spock.

1093
00:54:12.900 --> 00:54:13.920
Yeah, exactly.

1094
00:54:13.980 --> 00:54:15.900
Whereas Martha wants to know who he is.

1095
00:54:15.960 --> 00:54:19.320
It's like the fundamental difference between like when you're like

1096
00:54:19.320 --> 00:54:21.719
a teenager and you're dating somebody and it's all just the show.

1097
00:54:21.719 --> 00:54:26.400
And then you get older and you realise, no, what matters is who

1098
00:54:26.400 --> 00:54:26.760
you are.

1099
00:54:26.820 --> 00:54:30.480
Like fundamentally underneath, I want to know what's going on

1100
00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:33.179
inside you and I don't really care about the trappings.

1101
00:54:33.239 --> 00:54:36.900
Those are great, but a lot of people have nice bodies or good

1102
00:54:36.900 --> 00:54:37.380
suits.

1103
00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:40.139
Like what she wants to know is who he is underneath.

1104
00:54:40.199 --> 00:54:41.820
And I think that's quite interesting.

1105
00:55:10.500 --> 00:55:14.159
Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week.

1106
00:55:14.219 --> 00:55:18.119
We'll be back next week in old New York for an old fashioned

1107
00:55:18.119 --> 00:55:22.019
depression era alien invasion in Daleks in Manhattan.

1108
00:55:22.079 --> 00:55:25.860
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1109
00:55:25.860 --> 00:55:29.519
and you can keep up with us at FlightthroughEntirety.com, flight

1110
00:55:29.519 --> 00:55:33.179
through entirety on Facebook and at FTE podcast on Twitter.

1111
00:55:33.239 --> 00:55:37.559
You can also find our series 11 flashcast, Jody interterra, at

1112
00:55:37.559 --> 00:55:41.699
Jody interterra.com, and at Jody interterra on Twitter, and our

1113
00:55:41.699 --> 00:55:46.139
James Bond commentary podcast, Bondfinger at bondfinger.com, at

1114
00:55:46.139 --> 00:55:49.559
bondfinger on Facebook, and at bondfingercast on Twitter.

1115
00:55:49.619 --> 00:55:51.780
Where can people find you, Eric?

1116
00:55:51.840 --> 00:55:58.739
People can find me at SJC off tonight on Twitter, at SJC-A-U-S-T-E

1117
00:55:55.679 --> 00:56:00.659
N-I-T-E, or you can take a listen to one of my podcasts.

1118
00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:04.559
I have a Doctor Who podcast called The Real McCoy, where we look

1119
00:56:04.559 --> 00:56:07.980
at all of the 7th doctor stories, including some of the non

1120
00:56:07.260 --> 00:56:08.219
television ones.

1121
00:56:08.280 --> 00:56:11.579
Um, and then more long-term.

1122
00:56:11.639 --> 00:56:13.619
I have been doing a show called The Raiders Room.

1123
00:56:13.679 --> 00:56:16.619
We originally did, we look at all the writers of classic Doctor

1124
00:56:16.619 --> 00:56:20.400
Who, that took about 5 years, and now we're doing an American

1125
00:56:20.400 --> 00:56:23.699
television show called The Outer Limits, which is a classic of sci

1126
00:56:23.219 --> 00:56:26.280
fi television, and we're about halfway through our 1st year of

1127
00:56:26.280 --> 00:56:26.940
that.

1128
00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:29.280
So, the real McCoy pod.

1129
00:56:29.340 --> 00:56:32.159
And the writer's room, colon, the outer limit.

1130
00:56:32.219 --> 00:56:35.099
You can find it wherever you find good podcast and on Twitter.

1131
00:56:35.159 --> 00:56:36.300
Brandon Gasp.

1132
00:56:36.360 --> 00:56:40.019
Audible, audible gasp there, listeners, because the outer limits

1133
00:56:40.019 --> 00:56:41.099
is fantastic.

1134
00:56:41.159 --> 00:56:43.980
I will be devouring that.

1135
00:56:44.039 --> 00:56:44.880
Thank you, Eric.

1136
00:56:44.940 --> 00:56:45.960
And the podcast.

1137
00:56:46.559 --> 00:56:49.079
Thank you very much for joining us, Eric.

1138
00:56:49.139 --> 00:56:50.400
It's been great Thank you, Eric.

1139
00:56:50.460 --> 00:56:51.480
This has been super fun.

1140
00:56:51.539 --> 00:56:52.320
Thank you guys for having me.

1141
00:56:52.380 --> 00:56:56.820
So, until next time, may you cling to that old rugged cross and

1142
00:56:56.820 --> 00:56:58.559
exchange it someday for a crown.

1143
00:56:58.619 --> 00:57:00.840
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1144
00:57:00.900 --> 00:57:01.679
Good night.

1145
00:57:01.679 --> 00:57:02.039
Good night.

1146
00:57:02.099 --> 00:57:02.639
Do it off.

1147
00:57:05.760 --> 00:57:08.760
That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley

1148
00:57:08.760 --> 00:57:11.039
Brendan Jones, James Selwood, and Eric Stadnick.

1149
00:57:11.099 --> 00:57:13.980
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings Performance by Jane

1150
00:57:13.980 --> 00:57:14.760
Orberg.

1151
00:57:14.820 --> 00:57:18.000
This episode, Deeply Platonic, was recorded on the 4th of August

1152
00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:21.059
2019, and released on the 29th of September.

1153
00:57:25.019 --> 00:57:28.619
You know, people are always saying that there's no such thing as

1154
00:57:28.619 --> 00:57:31.800
macra, but for me the macra have always just been the friends we

1155
00:57:31.800 --> 00:57:32.699
made along the way.

1156
00:57:32.760 --> 00:57:36.119
Now, where did I put that hydrocortisone?

1157
00:57:39.179 --> 00:57:42.360
Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

1158
00:57:42.360 --> 00:57:46.139
the only Doctor Who podcast that combines theology, literary

1159
00:57:46.139 --> 00:57:49.440
criticism and massive computer-generated crabs.

1160
00:57:49.559 --> 00:57:50.760
I'm Nathan.

1161
00:57:50.820 --> 00:57:51.599
I'm James.

1162
00:57:51.659 --> 00:57:52.380
I'm Brendan.

1163
00:57:52.440 --> 00:57:53.400
And I'm Eric.

1164
00:57:53.519 --> 00:57:54.960
Brilliant.

1165
00:57:55.019 --> 00:57:55.500
Excellent.

1166
00:57:55.559 --> 00:57:57.840
Well, the air stinks.

1167
00:57:57.900 --> 00:58:00.780
We're trapped in a tiny room and we seem to be going round and

1168
00:58:00.780 --> 00:58:01.980
round in circles.

1169
00:58:02.099 --> 00:58:06.780
So either it's just everyday life in a late capitalist society or

1170
00:58:06.780 --> 00:58:10.440
we're discussing our next Doctor Who episode, Gridlock.

1171
00:58:11.519 --> 00:58:13.320
Hold on a sec.

1172
00:58:13.380 --> 00:58:14.639
Yours are computer generated.

1173
00:58:15.599 --> 00:58:18.179
Damn, I knew I was doing that wrong.

1174
00:58:18.539 --> 00:58:21.780
Mark it 40 seconds before the 1st crabs joke.

1175
00:58:21.840 --> 00:58:22.440
Yeah.

1176
00:58:22.440 --> 00:58:25.860
Much like the real thing.

1177
00:58:25.920 --> 00:58:31.980
You have to get them out quickly. of this is staying in.

1178
00:58:32.039 --> 00:58:34.800
This is literally the only reason I'm hit.

1179
00:58:35.699 --> 00:58:37.920
That's why we're still friends.

1180
00:58:39.300 --> 00:58:42.000
I'm gonna put my card straight on the table.