WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:25:16 1 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:41.280 Hello, Delister, and welcome back to Flight for Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast. 2 00:00:41.340 --> 00:00:44.820 Entirely hosted by men who are into musical theatre. 3 00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:46.259 I'm Nathan. 4 00:00:46.320 --> 00:00:47.159 I'm Lisa. 5 00:00:47.219 --> 00:00:48.000 I'm James. 6 00:00:48.060 --> 00:00:52.140 And I'm a mounted mooring mast barnacled with dalek bulls for this one. 7 00:00:53.700 --> 00:00:59.520 Well, we're back in old New York, but the metaphors for late capitalism are still everywhere to be found. 8 00:00:59.579 --> 00:01:08.760 The boss is watching and starvation is just one insolent remark away because it turns out that our supervisors are Daleks in Manhattan. 9 00:01:23.819 --> 00:01:27.599 So, this is a very highly regarded two partner, I think. 10 00:01:27.659 --> 00:01:28.560 Is that right? 11 00:01:28.620 --> 00:01:32.219 Am I, you know, do I have my finger on the pulse of fan wisdom for this one? 12 00:01:32.280 --> 00:01:33.659 I don't think that is right now. 13 00:01:33.780 --> 00:01:34.920 How can it not be? 14 00:01:34.980 --> 00:01:47.760 When I went to New York for the 3rd time, and the 1st thing I got off the, I got off the plane ran inside, even before I made the pit stop, was to turn it up to telly on and put this on again. 15 00:01:48.540 --> 00:01:50.640 I'm packed with this on. 16 00:01:50.700 --> 00:01:51.659 Truly. 17 00:01:51.719 --> 00:01:55.379 I have to say that I haven't really watched this all that often. 18 00:01:55.500 --> 00:01:58.079 And so watching it in preparation for the podcast. 19 00:01:58.140 --> 00:02:00.659 I was actually surprised by how much fun it is. 20 00:02:01.079 --> 00:02:03.239 It is fun in places. 21 00:02:03.299 --> 00:02:09.539 I mean, the last time I went to New York, I arrived at the base of the Statue of Liberty, to the strains of George Gershwin, and I felt like I was there. 22 00:02:12.060 --> 00:02:15.120 So what goes wrong with it? 23 00:02:15.180 --> 00:02:16.620 Why do people not like it, do we think? 24 00:02:16.680 --> 00:02:21.419 I think its ambitions are greater than its delivery. 25 00:02:21.479 --> 00:02:22.319 Yeah. 26 00:02:22.379 --> 00:02:30.360 It really relies super heavily on some pretty ropey CG Matt shots and the staff. 27 00:02:30.419 --> 00:02:31.139 Really? 28 00:02:31.199 --> 00:02:36.300 Well, are we going to starving those fans before we've even had our 1st gulp? 29 00:02:36.360 --> 00:02:39.060 Well, I actually think that that's a bad take. 30 00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:43.979 I would fast sooner that Doctor Who tried to be visually ambitious and tried to look interesting. 31 00:02:44.099 --> 00:02:54.659 But certainly people, I think, compare it unfavourably to our other Manhattan Doctor Who story where they actually go and sort of shoot in Central Park. 32 00:02:54.719 --> 00:02:58.379 But I, you know, have no memory. 33 00:02:58.439 --> 00:03:01.319 And it looks exactly like Swansea. 34 00:03:01.379 --> 00:03:03.000 So there you go. 35 00:03:03.060 --> 00:03:03.840 There is a Swansea. 36 00:03:03.900 --> 00:03:09.780 I'd like to say why this is so beautiful then, because, yeah, okay, we could then, if you want to be naked, nelly, because, you know, hi. 37 00:03:10.439 --> 00:03:12.539 Hi, we're right here. 38 00:03:12.599 --> 00:03:15.360 It's the pace of the and feel of it. 39 00:03:15.419 --> 00:03:16.740 No, the feel is superb. 40 00:03:16.800 --> 00:03:25.500 The pace maybe slacks off a little bit in the 2nd episode, and I think some of the performers are kind of looking at each other, working out, hey, director, what am I doing here? 41 00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:29.520 You're getting that, especially with Mr. Pinstripe, Diagolev. 42 00:03:29.580 --> 00:03:29.939 What his name? 43 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:30.719 The ballet Ruse. 44 00:03:30.780 --> 00:03:31.860 That guy. 45 00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:33.599 Mr. Eater. 46 00:03:33.659 --> 00:03:34.620 Mr. Diagonal. 47 00:03:34.680 --> 00:03:38.639 Yeah, but more about him from later, I hope. 48 00:03:38.759 --> 00:03:42.000 But it's got the joy of the jazz age deco. 49 00:03:42.060 --> 00:03:43.319 It's got the Gersh ones. 50 00:03:43.379 --> 00:03:46.199 That's where I'll be sticking it this week. 51 00:03:46.259 --> 00:03:47.580 What did you think? 52 00:03:47.639 --> 00:03:53.340 And actually, Nathan, you talked about the fact that it gets criticised for kind of the establishing shots and things like that. 53 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:53.819 Is that right? 54 00:03:53.879 --> 00:03:56.400 I mean, I think that they lend it much of its atmosphere. 55 00:03:56.460 --> 00:04:00.240 All those lovely sort of skyline shots of the 1930s. 56 00:04:00.360 --> 00:04:05.639 I mean, yeah, obviously, they weren't there, but it does lend it sort of, you know, a nice feel. 57 00:04:05.699 --> 00:04:17.339 Oh, I have to say that one shot of the Empire State building that they keep matting into Central Park with like Solomon standing in front of it and that there is no place in Central Park that will give you that. 58 00:04:17.399 --> 00:04:21.959 I was like, they've moved it up to 60th. right on the park. 59 00:04:22.019 --> 00:04:26.339 The MI Street building is about 2.5 kilometres from... 60 00:04:26.339 --> 00:04:28.560 I've walked it and yes, it's quite a walk. 61 00:04:28.620 --> 00:04:31.439 Yeah, you can't, you can't, you, Helen. not that close. 62 00:04:31.500 --> 00:04:40.920 Same same with the shot when they land on Liberty Island and they're looking at the Manhattan skyline. 63 00:04:40.980 --> 00:04:42.959 It looks something like that. 64 00:04:43.019 --> 00:04:44.100 Are they looking at Midtown? 65 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:49.319 Like, yeah, the Empire State Building is miles away from... 66 00:04:49.379 --> 00:04:49.860 Yeah, they are. 67 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:51.959 They're looking at Midtown from Liberty Island. 68 00:04:52.019 --> 00:04:55.199 We descended into other podcast realities now. 69 00:04:55.259 --> 00:05:00.660 That's right I demand better geographical accuracy from my Doctor Who. 70 00:05:05.220 --> 00:05:13.079 Although having said that, the fact that where the Empire State Building is situated is so well known makes it really obvious. 71 00:05:13.139 --> 00:05:18.120 But is it, is it to Mr. and Mrs. Kuffoops in Swansea? 72 00:05:18.180 --> 00:05:23.759 Because there's a lot of Austrian and German descendants who ended up in Wales after the war. 73 00:05:23.819 --> 00:05:26.279 How can you not love this? 74 00:05:26.399 --> 00:05:27.779 No, really. that's my question. 75 00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:28.560 How could you not? 76 00:05:28.620 --> 00:05:30.540 It's got Gershwin swelling up the ranks. 77 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:33.480 There you go, banging away with his rhapsodies. 78 00:05:33.660 --> 00:05:35.339 It's true. 79 00:05:35.399 --> 00:05:39.600 Just this great swell of hope and joy. and it's absolutely perfect. 80 00:05:39.720 --> 00:05:42.600 I think Russell is simply saying, come on, UK, they could do it. 81 00:05:42.660 --> 00:05:43.259 We can do it. 82 00:05:43.319 --> 00:05:45.959 I would tend to agree with you on that, Richard. 83 00:05:46.019 --> 00:05:51.480 It's much better than, I think we all have been led to remember. 84 00:05:51.540 --> 00:05:57.300 It tends to, I think, be derided as one of the worst stories. 85 00:05:57.420 --> 00:05:58.560 Is it really of the season? 86 00:05:58.620 --> 00:05:59.579 Why? 87 00:05:59.639 --> 00:06:00.720 I'm quite serious. 88 00:06:00.839 --> 00:06:07.139 We haven't even touched on the plumping muskety deliciousness of Miranda Raisin, but received fan wisdom. 89 00:06:07.199 --> 00:06:12.120 I watched it for the podcast this week and I really enjoyed myself. 90 00:06:12.180 --> 00:06:14.279 Yeah, I have to say I did as well. 91 00:06:14.339 --> 00:06:28.319 And it is in a kind of mythical New York and we've just come from a future New York and there is dialogue, I think, in this episode where Mr. Diagoras and the and the Dalek have a conversation about New York being a thing that kind of recurs. 92 00:06:28.439 --> 00:06:32.459 When they're looking out over the city from, yeah, from floor 100. 93 00:06:32.579 --> 00:06:37.319 And so it's Central Park, it's the Empire State Building, and it's... 94 00:06:37.319 --> 00:06:38.100 George Goshwin. 95 00:06:38.160 --> 00:06:41.879 Yeah, it's Peter Purvis in that rubber suit, isn't it? 96 00:06:41.939 --> 00:06:42.300 in that. 97 00:06:42.300 --> 00:06:43.379 Definitely, he's there. 98 00:06:43.439 --> 00:06:45.060 Yeah, yeah, in one of those little moments. 99 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:46.379 He's probably in the vomvum machine. 100 00:06:46.439 --> 00:06:50.339 But it makes sense that Russell's doing the same thing to New York that he does to London. 101 00:06:50.459 --> 00:06:58.079 He presents a pitched postcard version of London where every time you go there, you've got, you know, the the eye and you've got tower bridge and things like that. 102 00:06:58.139 --> 00:07:02.459 And so it just makes sense that if you go to New York, you sort of sketch it in with a couple of broad strokes and you're there. 103 00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:03.240 Yeah, yeah. 104 00:07:03.300 --> 00:07:09.240 Of course, this isn't the 1st time we've been to New York as you just implied. you know what which episode that's in. 105 00:07:09.300 --> 00:07:10.920 The chase. 106 00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:12.060 Flight through eternity. 107 00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:13.920 All right. 108 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:17.279 And we're home. 109 00:07:18.839 --> 00:07:24.000 Has anyone ever pointed out, by the way, then flight through eternity, Ian and Barbara actually get home. 110 00:07:24.060 --> 00:07:26.879 They've just got to jump on an ocean liner and... 111 00:07:26.939 --> 00:07:27.899 Yeah, I think they have. 112 00:07:27.959 --> 00:07:29.399 Why didn't they just go home? 113 00:07:29.879 --> 00:07:34.560 So you want to know, you want to know Russell's head cannon for that? 114 00:07:34.620 --> 00:07:35.279 Oh, no. 115 00:07:35.339 --> 00:07:59.579 So he actually had cannoned, it's in the confidential episode, that the Daleks remembered the time they bumped into Morton Dill on top of the Empire State Building, and when they were doing their emergency temporal shift at the end of Doomsday, they remembered, oh, you know, that building that we landed on, like, brilliant, back in the 60s. 116 00:07:59.579 --> 00:08:01.139 We'll go back and build that. 117 00:08:01.259 --> 00:08:01.740 Yeah. 118 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:04.259 Well, it's not implied that they build it. 119 00:08:04.319 --> 00:08:05.040 They just take it over. 120 00:08:05.100 --> 00:08:06.959 No, yeah, they finish it off. 121 00:08:07.019 --> 00:08:10.019 They had another, but this is actually, oh, archie nerds. 122 00:08:10.079 --> 00:08:10.680 Hello, my people. 123 00:08:10.740 --> 00:08:13.680 They did in fact add another... 124 00:08:14.519 --> 00:08:23.160 Oh, I think it ends up being about 3 metres to it because the Chrysler had already been built, but they needed to top to be the tallest. 125 00:08:23.220 --> 00:08:24.480 So right at the end of the build. 126 00:08:24.540 --> 00:08:28.199 They did actually add an extra, at least a minimum of a metre and a half . 127 00:08:28.259 --> 00:08:30.120 Dalek balls, yes. 128 00:08:30.180 --> 00:08:30.720 Yeah, yeah. 129 00:08:30.779 --> 00:08:33.000 I mean, it's it's a symbol. 130 00:08:33.059 --> 00:08:40.860 I like to think that they built it in the same way that Torchwood built Torchwood Tower because here with hope and absolutely no structure. 131 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:54.960 Well, here, here, though, the Daleks are just very deliberately, and perhaps for the 1st time, being used as a metaphor for capital, and here, we've gone from communism to Nazism to neoliberalism. 132 00:08:55.019 --> 00:08:56.580 Yeah, now they're capitalism, I think. 133 00:08:56.639 --> 00:09:07.919 And so the main area that much of this is said is Hooverville, and we get a little history lesson because I don't think Hooverville is sort of very widely known about. 134 00:09:07.980 --> 00:09:09.480 It was also under a bridge. 135 00:09:09.539 --> 00:09:11.759 Well, there were several Hoover bills, but the main one was on there. 136 00:09:12.539 --> 00:09:14.220 Hooberals across the United States. 137 00:09:14.279 --> 00:09:17.100 Yeah, so like just tent cities. 138 00:09:17.159 --> 00:09:23.340 Yeah, like literally refugee cities in the middle of the middle of all these major American cities. 139 00:09:23.460 --> 00:09:25.980 There were 100s of 1000s of people living in those. 140 00:09:26.039 --> 00:09:41.100 And so you get the Daleks sort of preying on these people and these people are used by capitalism, I think, in order to have access to cheap labour. 141 00:09:41.159 --> 00:09:55.559 So the threat of Hooverville, the fact that you can just be thrown back into Hooverville at a moment's notice, if you raise your voice or say anything to the boss, is, I mean, it's a threat that capitalism still uses today, I think. 142 00:09:55.620 --> 00:10:04.919 I mean, one of the reasons in Australia, we're having a big debate about the level of unemployment benefits, which are miserable and impossible to live on. 143 00:10:04.980 --> 00:10:25.139 And those levels, I think, are low, not just because the channel 9 audience won't wear more of their tax money going to dole blunges, but because it makes unemployment a threat and means that people can have less bargaining power when they're in work. 144 00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:27.840 And that's very much here. 145 00:10:27.899 --> 00:10:35.279 You know, Mr. Diagoras comes out and gives people work that is dangerous, that they might die from. 146 00:10:35.340 --> 00:10:41.700 He pays them a dollar a day and they basically have no choice but to take it because Hooveville. 147 00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:47.279 And so we see the Daleks are Deco as well, aren't they? 148 00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:55.139 In the way that and always have been, well, since. certainly the reboot, they are, the brassy baseless substances, aren't they? 149 00:10:55.200 --> 00:11:01.019 Yeah, yeah. hollow tin men that rule without favour or thought. 150 00:11:01.080 --> 00:11:04.559 And so they belong in the Empire State Building. 151 00:11:04.620 --> 00:11:13.620 And so what you have is this sort of, you know, Russell's usual verticality where you have capital on top looming over. 152 00:11:13.679 --> 00:11:26.700 That's why it's visible from Central Park so that you can look up and see what everyone's building with the profit that they are accruing as a result of your labour. 153 00:11:26.759 --> 00:11:28.679 Writers and artists knew this. 154 00:11:28.740 --> 00:11:54.960 That visionary spectacle of the city that we see in things like metropolis or later transposed to the US in just imagine, based on the drawings of beautiful charcoal and gosh and graphite drawings of an architect called Hugh Ferris, and they're seen now as being visionary and beautiful and great towering, you know, glass sculptures and labyrinths of canyons of beauty and structure. 155 00:11:55.019 --> 00:11:56.519 But he was actually saying, no, hang on. 156 00:11:56.580 --> 00:11:58.139 This is the warning. 157 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:09.899 And journalists and artists and writers saw this as exactly what you're saying, that there is a danger that we are building these identify to crush the persons below, you know, the Weimey knew it. 158 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:15.779 What was happening in Germany in the 20s is exactly what was happening in New York, and even in Australia, in the UK. 159 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:19.860 These were visions of Gog and Magog. 160 00:12:19.919 --> 00:12:22.679 These are these are the temples where capital is. 161 00:12:22.740 --> 00:12:24.299 It's an interesting choice. 162 00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:31.799 I mean, to use the Daleks in that way, because the obvious choice course is fascism and fascism is flourishing at this point in history. 163 00:12:31.860 --> 00:12:36.240 So that the fact they didn't go the route you would expect is interesting in itself. 164 00:12:36.299 --> 00:12:39.899 Yeah, I think, you know, the Daleks aren't ever used for that. 165 00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:52.139 And we talked in our Cyberman episode, where there's evidence that that alternative world, Pete's world is a world which is, you know, borderline fashist. 166 00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:55.740 There's Zeppelins, there's massive wealth inequality. 167 00:12:55.799 --> 00:13:00.240 And there's sort of stylish Hugo boss design sort of cyberman. 168 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:02.100 And that was what we talked about at length. 169 00:13:02.159 --> 00:13:05.159 So we've seen the cybermen being used as symbols of fascism. 170 00:13:05.220 --> 00:13:07.620 And here it isn't fascism, is it? 171 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:10.080 It is capitalism that's being talked about. 172 00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:12.779 But like a lot of mixed fibre articles. 173 00:13:12.840 --> 00:13:14.700 They tend to bleed together in the wash, don't they? 174 00:13:20.820 --> 00:13:28.919 So we arrive at a wall somewhere in Cardiff with Lady Liberty, gives Great Wall. 175 00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:30.659 Matted in, sort of above it. 176 00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:33.899 And there's a big thing in the confidential about finding the right wall, isn't there? 177 00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:36.360 Did you watch the confidential, James? 178 00:13:36.419 --> 00:13:41.220 I seem to remember them being very proud of, you know, scouting a war. 179 00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:42.299 Oh, yes, yes, yes. 180 00:13:42.360 --> 00:13:45.840 But that's, that's, that's in, that's at the end of episode two. 181 00:13:45.899 --> 00:13:47.220 Talking about confidential. 182 00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:48.659 I mean, what were they going to do earlier? 183 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:57.480 It was only the fact that confidential was going to New York, actually going there to, I think, look at some of the locations or whatever, that they were able to hitch along and get some of these match shots. 184 00:13:57.539 --> 00:14:01.379 So it came out of confidentials budget. absolutely. 185 00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:03.059 They couldn't afford it on the Dot 2 budget. 186 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:31.740 So there's a great, there's a great anecdote about that wall in confidential, where David just has to go at Phil Collins and, because he, and the director and the, I think it was the art director and the confidential crew all went to Manhattan for the weekend whilst they got stuck in a car park in Penarth. 187 00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:36.899 He did seem actually genuinely annoyed as well. 188 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:42.299 Like he was trying to be funny about it, but there was no kind of masking the actual genuine annoyance there. 189 00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:45.899 So and it looks like Martha's trip has been extended. 190 00:14:45.960 --> 00:14:47.759 And nothing is really said about it. 191 00:14:47.820 --> 00:14:50.940 We don't get any previously on Doctor Who. 192 00:14:51.000 --> 00:15:04.679 There was actually a deleted scene set in the TARDIS where Martha basically is like, oh, you know, come on, like one last trip and he's like, oh, well, right, then I'll take you to... 193 00:15:04.740 --> 00:15:06.179 Exactly, Blackpool. 194 00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:10.139 But that was edited out for timing. 195 00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:13.080 Do we not think that undermines the character of Martha a little bit? 196 00:15:13.139 --> 00:15:16.740 He's like, he's really grudging in sort of taking on every adventure. 197 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:19.019 It makes her feel like she's just a bit of a stand-in. 198 00:15:19.080 --> 00:15:24.600 We'll talk about that more next week because I think he's quite horrible to her at the end of next week's episode. 199 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:27.840 I think it's right to remove that scene. 200 00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:29.220 Yeah. for tone. 201 00:15:29.340 --> 00:15:34.200 Because he is, like you say, terrible to her. 202 00:15:34.379 --> 00:15:42.360 And I don't think we need like our 4th episode in a row with a doctor grudgingly saying you get one trip and then you're going. 203 00:15:42.419 --> 00:15:43.379 We've had... 204 00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:44.039 Yeah, we get it. 205 00:15:44.100 --> 00:15:44.759 You loved Rose. 206 00:15:44.820 --> 00:15:45.179 We get it. 207 00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:46.019 Yeah, yeah. 208 00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:48.059 And it is actually sort of quite nice. 209 00:15:48.120 --> 00:15:49.919 She is so enthusiastic, isn't she? 210 00:15:49.980 --> 00:15:56.039 And she's smart, sort of straight away. she's able to tell what time it is while the doctor's sort of still sniffing the air. 211 00:15:56.100 --> 00:15:59.279 Are we getting some truth in fiction simulacra here? 212 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:02.820 If you've got your FTE bingo card, dear listener out. 213 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:04.799 Which word did we just use then? 214 00:16:04.860 --> 00:16:05.220 Tick? 215 00:16:05.279 --> 00:16:06.419 Are we getting any of that here? 216 00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:07.860 Well, I don't know. 217 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:10.259 It is sort of early on in the year. 218 00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:18.240 But certainly it does seem like David enjoyed working with Billy and didn't enjoy working with Freeman quite so much. 219 00:16:18.299 --> 00:16:21.539 And I'm not entirely sure why that is. 220 00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:31.620 But certainly she has a real enthusiasm and it really bleeds into her portrayal of Martha, I think it's a good term. 221 00:16:31.740 --> 00:16:47.700 Bleeds is a good turn because I do feel that one of Russell's great strengths with people and the reason he's so popular and continues to be is he's meta writing that the personalities of his performers become in part the characterisations of his players. 222 00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:51.000 And so therefore, Freeman's enthusiasm. 223 00:16:51.059 --> 00:16:56.039 David's perhaps looking at what he's going to be doing with the role, he's midway through. 224 00:16:56.100 --> 00:16:58.080 You always get that on we, don't you? 225 00:16:58.200 --> 00:17:04.740 It seems to be the Pat Trouton 2nd season, you know, or, you know, it took John a bit longer, but we've seen we've seen this before. 226 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:08.819 I think Russell's great skill is putting the truthiness of the actors into the parts. 227 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:15.119 I think as well, so much for it relies on Freema's charisma because Martha's actually quite an underwritten character. 228 00:17:15.180 --> 00:17:17.400 She's really underwritten, isn't she? 229 00:17:17.460 --> 00:17:19.559 She gets very little to do in this episode. 230 00:17:19.619 --> 00:17:22.740 She traipses around, you know, behind the doctor. 231 00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:26.099 But she gets to do best girlfriend thing with my favourite thing in the season. 232 00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:29.640 We'll get to that next week, which I think is absolutely wonderful. 233 00:17:29.700 --> 00:17:32.220 Her and Tallula are terrific together. 234 00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:33.299 Can't have too many L's. 235 00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:33.839 Yeah, yeah. 236 00:17:33.900 --> 00:17:36.059 Well, once she's out from under David's shadows. 237 00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:40.079 She's, you know, she gets to do some things, but here she gets captured. 238 00:17:40.140 --> 00:17:42.539 I mean, she gets a brave moment with a darling. 239 00:17:42.599 --> 00:17:49.740 She's pretty well passive throughout the entire thing, but also she does get 2 big scenes with Tulula, and both of them fail, they'll test spectacularly. 240 00:17:50.220 --> 00:17:52.380 They were talking about Laslow. 241 00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:55.079 And then talking about, but you love the doctor, didn't you? 242 00:17:55.140 --> 00:17:56.220 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 243 00:17:56.279 --> 00:17:58.259 But it's also very 30s writing. 244 00:17:58.319 --> 00:17:59.220 Yeah. 245 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:06.539 And I think this is this is also mirroring and the reason I love it, it's George and Ira and Jerome Kern and Irving Berlin. 246 00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:11.460 But it's mirroring the structure and context of a 30s musical. 247 00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:13.380 I think that's wonderful too. 248 00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:25.079 I think the theatre location, Todd had a bit of a complaint that it started in the theatre and, you know, that the cold open ends with a pig slave rather than a dale. 249 00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:26.579 We're all mean to those shows. 250 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:34.380 But I love the theatre because I think it's a beautiful location that doesn't need to be kind of dressed particularly to look like the 1930s. 251 00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:36.660 Got a big entrance to a sewer in a dressing room. 252 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:37.920 Yeah, like you do. 253 00:18:38.039 --> 00:18:39.900 Actually, you know what? 254 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:41.460 All it needs is a giant rat. 255 00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:43.380 Yes exactly. 256 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:46.680 And some more diminution of the female leads. 257 00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:49.740 And also get your togs off, before we're there. 258 00:18:49.859 --> 00:18:55.500 That is a period appropriate theatring in the Welsh valleys. sewer and all. 259 00:18:55.559 --> 00:18:56.039 Yeah. 260 00:18:56.279 --> 00:18:58.259 Suran Jones, what? 261 00:18:59.940 --> 00:19:02.579 Well, let's give it a symbolic meaning. 262 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:11.339 I mean, she talks about, um, and again, it'll be next week, I think, we discover her, the precarity of her situation as well. 263 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:16.740 She still has to work, even though Laszlo's gone because if she doesn't work, she'll starve. 264 00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:17.880 There's Hooverville. 265 00:19:17.940 --> 00:19:24.900 And so having her kind of sewer adjacent is, you know, kind of on point, I think, for the metaphor. 266 00:19:25.259 --> 00:19:29.400 I think you're lending this episode a little bit too much there. 267 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:34.259 I mean, it seems like all 3 of you have quite enjoyed this episode. 268 00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:36.779 I do enjoy it on its own merits. 269 00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:38.940 I just think that they're few and far between. 270 00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:50.700 I think I wanted to talk about the difference between plot and story. right? 271 00:19:50.759 --> 00:19:55.079 I don't think it has a story so much as a plot, this 1st episode. 272 00:19:55.200 --> 00:20:04.019 So it's introducing us to the world, but then it is just, you know, Frank gets captured, that Martha gets captured. 273 00:20:04.140 --> 00:20:05.279 We all end up in a thing. 274 00:20:05.339 --> 00:20:06.779 It's very traditional. 275 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:18.960 Whereas, you know, the 1st of these 2 parters has a massive plot hook, which is aliens crash a spaceship into Big Ben, and he's our very 1st invasion. 276 00:20:19.019 --> 00:20:28.859 This is much more like a classic series story in the way that it's plotted rather than having an overarching story. 277 00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:30.359 It is. 278 00:20:30.420 --> 00:20:42.660 I also, I think it does have a great idea at the centre of it, and there's something to be made of that story, and I think if, as originally intended, Stephen Moffat had written the 2 parter with the Daleks, it could have been something really interesting. 279 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:47.279 But it just seems like the plotting is not really extending the story at all. 280 00:20:47.339 --> 00:20:55.079 There's an awful lot of detours, for instance, where they all go down the sewers the 1st time and wander through the sewers and see some pig sleeves and then come out of the sewers again. 281 00:20:55.140 --> 00:20:58.799 And you think, well, how does that progress the story in any way in an interesting direction? 282 00:20:58.859 --> 00:21:01.440 I think there's a lot of cul-de-sacs in this story like that. 283 00:21:01.500 --> 00:21:02.519 Yeah. 284 00:21:02.579 --> 00:21:06.779 There does seem to be a lot of going from place to place in order to kind of discover things. 285 00:21:06.900 --> 00:21:08.940 Yeah, and you know, that could be rookie stuff as well. 286 00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:10.380 I mean, the writer Helen Reena. 287 00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:12.180 This is her 1st episodes for the series. 288 00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:14.940 And so you don't expect magic 1st time out. 289 00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:18.359 But I think maybe Russell or Stephen would have made a little bit more of that. 290 00:21:18.420 --> 00:21:21.900 Is Russell busy or tired or something at this point? 291 00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:27.420 I think maybe Russell wasn't, well, maybe had the flu or something. 292 00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:28.440 I don't know. 293 00:21:28.500 --> 00:21:33.660 I can't quite remember, but I don't think these episodes received the full Russell treatment that most people do. 294 00:21:33.720 --> 00:21:38.940 Because, I mean, there are rustly things to them and certainly the character of Tallula. 295 00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:49.799 I think Tallula and Laszlo, like that that's a very kind of rustly thing to do, to have that kind of love story going on throughout the entire time. 296 00:21:49.859 --> 00:21:56.339 And I think that Tallula is a truly great character, like an excellent Doctor Who character. 297 00:21:56.400 --> 00:21:57.599 Is she English? 298 00:21:57.660 --> 00:21:58.319 Yes. 299 00:21:58.440 --> 00:22:05.339 So like the accent is kind of movie starlet kind of accent, isn't it? 300 00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:07.380 I watch a lot of these things. think it's great. 301 00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:08.940 And they're actually, she's on point. 302 00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:09.779 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 303 00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:10.980 It's period appropriate. 304 00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:12.000 Yeah, exactly. 305 00:22:12.059 --> 00:22:13.319 And she does... 306 00:22:13.319 --> 00:22:16.200 It's a Hobogan New York Jewish accent. 307 00:22:16.259 --> 00:22:17.160 She does, that's great. 308 00:22:17.220 --> 00:22:19.680 She does a terrific job of selling the period, you know. 309 00:22:19.740 --> 00:22:21.000 And she's not dumb. 310 00:22:21.059 --> 00:22:28.140 Like it's one of those things that Doctor Who has sort of stopped doing, which is people in the past are not as clever as people now. 311 00:22:28.200 --> 00:22:29.339 She's smart. 312 00:22:29.460 --> 00:22:30.660 Get that coal in Vince. 313 00:22:32.819 --> 00:22:36.119 She's super likeable and really funny. 314 00:22:36.180 --> 00:22:37.319 I think she's terrific. 315 00:22:37.380 --> 00:22:39.660 And there is a real kind of sadness. 316 00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:42.119 I just think it's it's tremendous. 317 00:22:42.180 --> 00:22:51.240 I think fans are really hard on Helen Rayner, but she did actually come up with some of the more interesting plot elements in the story. 318 00:22:51.299 --> 00:22:56.940 Russell only really gave her the, I want this set in the 30s in Manhattan. 319 00:22:57.000 --> 00:22:58.200 Pig Slave, seal system. 320 00:22:58.259 --> 00:23:05.940 And she was the one who actually made the construction of the Empire State Building central to the plot. 321 00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:06.599 Right. 322 00:23:06.660 --> 00:23:12.539 And that all came out of her research into the building. 323 00:23:12.539 --> 00:23:19.559 And the fact that during the construction, the press was really vague about what the master was for. 324 00:23:19.619 --> 00:23:20.339 Right. 325 00:23:20.339 --> 00:23:22.920 Well, it was actually just the to be the hire. 326 00:23:22.980 --> 00:23:25.920 Yeah, it was also, no, they are lightning masks. 327 00:23:25.980 --> 00:23:27.359 They are the conductor masks. 328 00:23:27.420 --> 00:23:32.819 And they were also mooring masts because the idea was, seriously, that airships. 329 00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:34.799 For Zenitids, yeah. 330 00:23:34.859 --> 00:23:36.839 King Kong to hang on to. 331 00:23:38.279 --> 00:23:48.359 So she made that part of the Daleks plan to construct a hire, like to instruct the mast so that it could be used for their evil experiment. 332 00:23:48.420 --> 00:23:49.619 But you see, that's great. 333 00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:53.220 And I do think Helen Rainer gets a rough trot from fans. 334 00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:55.859 I think she's better than the reviews would suggest. 335 00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:57.359 But again, that's concept. 336 00:23:57.420 --> 00:23:58.380 That's not plotting. 337 00:23:58.440 --> 00:23:59.279 I don't know. 338 00:23:59.339 --> 00:24:02.940 Yeah, I mean, the plotting is very Trad, I think. 339 00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:09.779 I think that the treatment of Helen Rayner after this episode airs is a massive black mark on fandom. 340 00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:12.720 It was disgraceful and What happened? 341 00:24:12.779 --> 00:24:22.680 Well, I think, you know, Gallifrey Bass or whatever it was back then, just kind of slammed her quite personally. quite a misogynist way. 342 00:24:22.740 --> 00:24:25.500 Yeah, well that's right. she the 1st woman to write for the new series? 343 00:24:25.559 --> 00:24:26.039 Yes. 344 00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:26.339 Yeah. 345 00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:32.880 I'm just thinking if we'd been rattling down Terry Nation Street again in a brass bath chair, you probably wouldn't have copped the same. 346 00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:40.500 No, to the point when the, you know, how long is it between female writers after this? 347 00:24:40.619 --> 00:24:43.920 Yeah, but I mean, I think that that was terrible. 348 00:24:43.980 --> 00:24:46.980 And I don't think that she's to blame for the story's flaws. 349 00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:50.160 I think there are some people struggling with accents. 350 00:24:50.220 --> 00:24:52.200 I'm seriously still not seeing the flaw. 351 00:24:52.259 --> 00:24:55.559 No, no, like I think it's I think it's super enjoyable. 352 00:24:55.619 --> 00:24:57.660 I think it is really Trad. 353 00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:00.480 And I think there's a great deal of atmosphere in the 1st episode. 354 00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:04.019 And, you know, I worry about the direction. 355 00:25:04.140 --> 00:25:07.079 There are some good moments in it, but it is a bit flat. 356 00:25:07.140 --> 00:25:09.839 It is, but also, I mean, I see both sides. 357 00:25:09.900 --> 00:25:21.779 I mean, I wasn't aware that she'd been criticised in those terms and that's reprehensible, but also the fact is I don't think she did do a particularly good job, but that's okay because a lot of people haven't done a particularly good job. 358 00:25:21.839 --> 00:25:26.640 She comes back the 2nd time and she does a much better job in the Santaran 2 passer for next year. 359 00:25:26.700 --> 00:25:32.160 So it's the terms of the criticism, if she was criticised in misogynistic ways. 360 00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:33.359 And they thought, that's just unforgivable. 361 00:25:33.420 --> 00:25:39.299 I think Russell must have thought it was successful to give her the same story the following year. 362 00:25:39.359 --> 00:25:40.619 He loved it. 363 00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:48.480 But I don't think there's anyone very far from this broadcast who doesn't appreciate a good musical. indeed at this table. 364 00:25:48.599 --> 00:25:55.259 No, originally in the earlier drafts, it was not musical theatre. 365 00:25:55.259 --> 00:26:03.599 The original draft of the script involved it being set in jazz clubs, prohibition. 366 00:26:06.660 --> 00:26:09.420 And Laslow is in the mob. 367 00:26:09.480 --> 00:26:12.660 No, it would have been really interesting, maybe a bit too dark. 368 00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:18.900 And and Russell Russell wanted the musical theatre, so it morphed into all that. 369 00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:21.900 It's also setting something in speakeas and things like that. 370 00:26:21.960 --> 00:26:25.440 It's going to all your usual touch points rather than, you know, trying something. 371 00:26:25.500 --> 00:26:30.299 It would have actually, yeah, it would have looked a little flatter in those spectacles of the stage of the angels. 372 00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:31.200 I love that so much. 373 00:26:31.259 --> 00:26:33.119 And I love Mary Gold's take on it. 374 00:26:33.180 --> 00:26:45.660 You can tell, yes, he Murray doesn't mind a bit of musical theatre himself because he's really got all the bangs and whistles of it's just between Rhapsody and Blue, which Gershwin George wrote in 3 weeks because he'd forgotten he had to premiere 24. 375 00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:48.180 I think you're kind of seeing why I love this so much. 376 00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:57.720 But it taps into the Zeitgeist and the joyousness of popular music at that time and the ardour and the hardship that was behind it. 377 00:26:57.779 --> 00:27:00.660 Gershwin himself was 11, you know, wasn't going to be trained. 378 00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:01.980 So I'm going to segue. 379 00:27:02.039 --> 00:27:19.019 Um, and his family bought him a lovely 2nd hand upright and he, and he just started writing and composing away and he was, you know, already a genius and his and his brother, of course, he died at 38 and his brother was, um, Feinstein called him his lovely wife, Ira. took over. 380 00:27:19.079 --> 00:27:24.299 But there's that sense that Peter was touching on that there is so much to work against. 381 00:27:24.359 --> 00:27:28.500 And you might also say that was Helen Rainer's position here. 382 00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:33.119 And also if Russell wasn't available and she wasn't getting much tips. 383 00:27:33.180 --> 00:27:40.680 I do remember Helen saying something along the lines of I was given 3 ideas and I had to get this script out and there wasn't really much feedback at the time. 384 00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:41.759 So yes, I think you're right. 385 00:27:41.819 --> 00:27:45.960 Russell was ill or perhaps just really busy on other staff and getting tortured up. 386 00:27:46.079 --> 00:27:50.460 But this is kind of the ardour and the pressure that she was under. 387 00:27:50.519 --> 00:27:59.579 I think really reflects well in the sense of this is a story of great hopelessness and just ignoring that and standing up. 388 00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:02.220 Your heart might break, but the show must go on. 389 00:28:02.279 --> 00:28:03.000 That's it. 390 00:28:03.059 --> 00:28:05.339 Where's the where's the tule? 391 00:28:05.819 --> 00:28:18.119 You see, so I think it was a good idea, not sort of go with, you know, the mob or a speakeasy or whatever, you know, something which was like too indicative of the era and say, okay, let's go for a theatre instead. 392 00:28:18.180 --> 00:28:18.900 That's a good idea. 393 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:20.039 I'm on board with that. 394 00:28:20.099 --> 00:28:28.980 But then if you've got 3 big locations in the story, if you've got the Empire State Building, you've got Hooville, you've got the theatre, they need to be tied together a little bit better than they were. 395 00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:30.539 The theatre is just a backdrop. 396 00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:33.779 It's just, yeah, they go there and some things happen. 397 00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:36.000 It doesn't feel like it's connected properly. 398 00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:37.740 Got a sewer, haven't you? 399 00:28:39.180 --> 00:28:40.740 That's it. 400 00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:44.460 That is really kind of the scaffolding showing, isn't it? 401 00:28:44.519 --> 00:28:46.859 The fact that there's the sewer in the... 402 00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:48.480 Doctor Who, you have to pursue her. 403 00:28:49.140 --> 00:28:53.519 Poor Victoria was always getting shunted down one, wasn't she? 404 00:28:53.579 --> 00:28:55.200 It is a very nice sewer. 405 00:28:55.259 --> 00:28:59.039 I have to say, it's a very, very impressive set. 406 00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:02.099 And the Adulthood, do you hear the words? 407 00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:03.180 It was a very nice story. 408 00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:05.039 We've got many to choose from. 409 00:29:05.099 --> 00:29:09.000 Or maybe in the construction of the Victorian Embankment. 410 00:29:09.059 --> 00:29:16.380 But yeah, I just, I don't think it hangs together that well, that you get the impression that people are just going from place to place because they are just going from place to place. 411 00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:18.359 What's the point of going to the theatre? 412 00:29:18.420 --> 00:29:19.200 There really is none. 413 00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:19.980 No. 414 00:29:20.039 --> 00:29:32.940 And I guess thematically it's tied in because of her precarity and the fact that even though she's a sort of a big star, she is, you know, suffering under capitalism as much as anyone else. 415 00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:35.339 But that's probably not quite enough. 416 00:29:35.400 --> 00:29:42.119 And that seems to be from Helen Rayner, that whole, the Daleks's agents of capitalism. 417 00:29:42.180 --> 00:29:45.420 I think is seems to come just directly from her. 418 00:29:45.420 --> 00:29:48.000 And so I think that's super interesting. 419 00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:53.400 And I do think Hooverville and the Empire State Building are they're well integrated. 420 00:29:53.460 --> 00:30:00.059 I think the theatre would feel more of a piece if like you touched on a little bit earlier, Nathan, it was shot a little bit better. 421 00:30:00.119 --> 00:30:02.279 Everything feels a little bit separate. 422 00:30:02.339 --> 00:30:06.660 So when you get the big Busby Berkeley kind of number and everything, It doesn't quite come off. 423 00:30:06.720 --> 00:30:10.980 And so it feels like anytime you're at the theatre, it's the least successful part of the story. 424 00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:16.920 Certainly that scene where Martha tries to make her way across the stage doesn't quite work. 425 00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:19.140 Although it is standard Broadway stick. 426 00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:23.579 I wonder if it's, I wonder if it's sidelined because the women's roles themselves are sidelined. 427 00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:25.079 I wonder if there's a bit of meta happening there. 428 00:30:25.140 --> 00:30:32.940 So we have some big male guest stars, don't we, in Hugh Quashi and Andrew Garfield. 429 00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:36.539 It's one of them very well known at the time. one of them, of course, about to become well known. 430 00:30:36.599 --> 00:30:39.660 Yeah, so Andrew Garfield is not well known at this point. 431 00:30:39.720 --> 00:30:41.700 He's about to become Spider-Man. 432 00:30:41.759 --> 00:31:00.180 Well, not quite, but he was about to do boy A, which was his big break, which was, I can't remember the exact details, but was dramatisation of a child who'd killed another child and gone to prison and then had come out as an adult and had to live with the consequences of his action. 433 00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:03.480 So it was based on the Jamie Boulger case. 434 00:31:03.539 --> 00:31:06.660 And that was where his star really soared. 435 00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:08.099 He gave him tremendous performance. 436 00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:13.740 And he speaks with an English accent normally or he does both, doesn't he? 437 00:31:13.799 --> 00:31:14.640 He grew up in Britain. 438 00:31:14.700 --> 00:31:16.920 Yeah, I think he did grow up in Britain. 439 00:31:16.980 --> 00:31:25.500 Yeah, he was born in California, I believe, and but he'd spent his entire childhood in the UK. 440 00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:29.819 Is this an episode where Americans are embarrassed by the American accents? 441 00:31:30.059 --> 00:31:32.160 I should ask an American. 442 00:31:32.220 --> 00:31:32.640 We should. 443 00:31:32.700 --> 00:31:34.380 I don't know. embarrassed by them. 444 00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:36.539 I think Hugh Korsi does a pretty good job. 445 00:31:36.599 --> 00:31:41.640 And certainly he is very charismatic and extremely good, I think. 446 00:31:41.700 --> 00:31:44.339 Yeah, I mean, there's no touch of the Ike Clanton. 447 00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:51.059 So he's Captain Panaka in Star Wars, the Phantom Menace. 448 00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:51.539 Really? 449 00:31:51.539 --> 00:31:52.799 Yeah. 450 00:31:52.859 --> 00:31:58.259 And he's the detective inspector in the last word part two, a wonderful press gang episode. 451 00:31:58.980 --> 00:32:02.279 So just over a Griffin in Holby City, which is where most people would have known him from. 452 00:32:02.339 --> 00:32:08.039 So for the listener who's not watching this at home, this he's the fellow who's in charge of his. 453 00:32:08.099 --> 00:32:08.759 He the alpha man. 454 00:32:08.819 --> 00:32:10.259 Yeah, so he's called Solomon. 455 00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:14.400 And in fact, we see him breaking a loaf of bread in half. 456 00:32:14.519 --> 00:32:16.200 Not at all subtle, yes. 457 00:32:16.259 --> 00:32:16.680 Yes. 458 00:32:16.740 --> 00:32:18.240 Well, at least it's not a baby, right? 459 00:32:18.299 --> 00:32:20.400 He's breaking... 460 00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:24.480 He is breaking a loaf of bread in half and giving it the 2... 461 00:32:24.539 --> 00:32:25.259 Buttered both sides. 462 00:32:25.319 --> 00:32:26.220 Which one do you drop? 463 00:32:26.279 --> 00:32:27.839 And he's wonderful. 464 00:32:27.900 --> 00:32:29.160 I think he is really great. 465 00:32:29.220 --> 00:32:34.680 And we'll talk more about him next week where he gets his really big hero moment. 466 00:32:34.740 --> 00:32:36.359 But he's terrifically good. 467 00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:38.640 I think Andrew Garfield pretty good. 468 00:32:38.700 --> 00:32:40.559 Garfield plays Frank, doesn't he? 469 00:32:40.619 --> 00:32:41.039 Yeah, yeah. 470 00:32:41.099 --> 00:32:42.420 Yeah, I mean, Frank's nothing wrong. 471 00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:43.559 He doesn't really get anything to do. 472 00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:47.220 You know, he just trails around after the doctor... 473 00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:48.180 Escapes, good. 474 00:32:48.240 --> 00:33:01.799 However, I do remember saying after this episode went out when my friend Paul, and I were talking about it, and I said, oh, I think Frank in Daleksy Manhattan, it was really cute, and I think, you know, he's going to go places, and Paul said, what? 475 00:33:01.859 --> 00:33:02.220 him? 476 00:33:02.279 --> 00:33:03.240 He'll amount to nothing. 477 00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:05.880 Nothing. 478 00:33:14.940 --> 00:33:18.839 Do you know, we haven't mentioned the Daleks doing things yet. 479 00:33:18.900 --> 00:33:22.140 So what do we think of their pig slaves? 480 00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:29.460 I'm kind of loving that the Daleks are very scroovian and very heart-molisk in that they really are just 4 of them and they're stuck. 481 00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:32.700 They can't really leave their little tiny walled, glittering city. 482 00:33:32.759 --> 00:33:36.660 It is the 1st time and Xander does point this out. 483 00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:42.240 This is the 1st time where the Daleks are just normal, where we start with Daleks in existence. 484 00:33:42.299 --> 00:33:52.440 We know that they're there and they're not in here for like a giant format changing moment, like in their 1st appearance and they're not here for a season finale. 485 00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:54.000 They're cornered and timid. 486 00:33:54.059 --> 00:33:55.500 Yeah, they've like, yes. 487 00:33:55.559 --> 00:33:57.779 It is just business of the week for the Daleks. 488 00:33:57.839 --> 00:34:00.240 And I think some people are disappointed by that. 489 00:34:00.299 --> 00:34:03.180 They're not giant agents of chaos. 490 00:34:03.240 --> 00:34:14.519 I don't understand how you can be disappointed by that because I think, you know, I think I've been a bit more down on this episode than the rest of you, but I think the Daleks are the best they have ever been in this story. 491 00:34:14.579 --> 00:34:16.800 They're given proper characters and motivations. 492 00:34:16.860 --> 00:34:18.719 Gorgeous valve radios. 493 00:34:18.780 --> 00:34:20.460 Huge things. 494 00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:23.579 They're sort of intradalek conversations are all interesting. 495 00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:26.460 They're given sort of verbal ticks and things. 496 00:34:26.519 --> 00:34:35.880 I think they sound, and especially, you know, the rest of the episode, I don't know about how well it's shot, but the Daleks are shot brilliantly. 497 00:34:35.940 --> 00:34:50.340 I think that there is this sort of idea, and I think it's down to Terry Nation's kind of laziness, that Daleks are sort of boring conversationalists, and we need Davros along in order to have someone saying interesting things. 498 00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:52.500 They weren't Doll under Whittaker, though. 499 00:34:52.619 --> 00:34:53.519 No, absolutely. 500 00:34:53.579 --> 00:34:54.480 Exactly. 501 00:34:54.539 --> 00:35:00.780 And this is back to a real Whittakerrian conception of the Daleks, but I think we have to talk about that next week. 502 00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:04.980 This is the Daleks as they were in the 60s, I think. 503 00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:08.039 And they're given proper status when they're on the screen. 504 00:35:08.039 --> 00:35:09.059 The camera loves them. 505 00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:12.059 They're big in the shot and stuff like that. 506 00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:12.900 They're glamorous. 507 00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:13.199 Yeah. 508 00:35:13.260 --> 00:35:15.480 They're filmed from below quite a lot. 509 00:35:15.539 --> 00:35:19.139 Yeah, no, they're made they're made to seem powerful. 510 00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:22.139 And every time they enter a scene, they're given a proper entrance. 511 00:35:22.199 --> 00:35:24.900 And also a lot of it's down to Nick Briggs. 512 00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:27.179 I mean, you've got Nick Briggs providing the voices. 513 00:35:27.239 --> 00:35:31.260 And he knows how to do Daleks, different registers, different tones. 514 00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:33.659 You never in any doubt over which Dalek's speaking. 515 00:35:33.719 --> 00:35:36.119 Well, we'll talk about that next week. 516 00:35:36.179 --> 00:35:38.880 He is incredibly good, isn't he? 517 00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:40.920 Because he does the Peter Hawkins voice. 518 00:35:40.980 --> 00:35:49.739 He does the David Graham voice, but he makes those voices something that can say interesting dialogue. 519 00:35:49.800 --> 00:36:01.800 And Dalek Sec, in that 1st episode, where he's speculating about humanity and New York and things, is a Dalek who is thinking deeply about something. 520 00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:03.420 And I think that that's really interesting. 521 00:36:03.480 --> 00:36:15.300 I think the idea that that you have this cult of scaro, that is rethinking what it means to be a dalek, that that's properly interesting and something that we haven't seen before. 522 00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:18.480 And you get, as well, I think it's Dalek, they. 523 00:36:18.539 --> 00:36:30.059 I'm not sure which one, which comes up in Lyft and talks to Mr. Diagoras, and they stand there for a scene looking out over in New York and talking about things, and you think, well, great. let's have more of this It is pretty good, isn't it? 524 00:36:30.119 --> 00:36:43.019 And Nicholas Briggs can't get enough credit for that because he takes those voices, which have just so often said seek, locate, exterminate, and nothing more interesting than that and does a proper acting performance. 525 00:36:43.139 --> 00:36:47.519 And we saw that right 2 years ago with Dalek and he's been doing it ever since. 526 00:36:47.579 --> 00:36:51.719 But he also remembers that whatever a Dalek sounds like, it's always got to be angry. 527 00:36:51.900 --> 00:36:54.000 It delivers its lines angrily all the time. 528 00:37:00.059 --> 00:37:03.000 We haven't talked much about Diagras. 529 00:37:03.059 --> 00:37:08.880 And he's a performance that I'm not completely on board with, and I'm not sure with that at all. 530 00:37:08.940 --> 00:37:16.500 See, I'm with you as well, but it's also probably the most truest of the New York play pieces because that is the flat tone and that is kind of how we talk. 531 00:37:16.500 --> 00:37:17.880 And, you know, you're wanting up and down. 532 00:37:17.940 --> 00:37:19.199 You go Midwest. 533 00:37:19.260 --> 00:37:20.760 This is actually what we guys are like. 534 00:37:20.820 --> 00:37:21.480 What's your problem? 535 00:37:21.539 --> 00:37:26.820 He, unlike a lot of the other people in the episode is in America, right? 536 00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:29.820 I do get a sense of discomfiture in the performance. 537 00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:36.059 And usually we can then reestablish that into the narrative and go, oh, well, you know, there's a lot coming. 538 00:37:36.119 --> 00:37:37.800 It's called the Caroline Ford principle. 539 00:37:39.179 --> 00:37:41.579 No, I'm really not kidding. 540 00:37:41.639 --> 00:37:43.019 Is he slightly telepathic? 541 00:37:43.500 --> 00:37:48.179 Yes, and was going to be an Avengers girl and everything. just didn't happen. 542 00:37:48.599 --> 00:37:50.460 Very pissed off. 543 00:37:50.519 --> 00:37:53.519 But I get the sense that he doesn't really know what's going on. 544 00:37:53.579 --> 00:37:56.519 But yes, we can matter that because that is how the character would feel. 545 00:37:56.579 --> 00:37:58.619 And of course, he's really scared. 546 00:37:58.679 --> 00:38:01.139 And of course he's totally out of his depth. 547 00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:10.199 He does have one or 2 terrible scenes in that 1st episode with kind of workman, you know, kind of expostulating workman and stuff where he's bullying them. 548 00:38:10.260 --> 00:38:13.320 And I don't think the workmen are necessarily all that good. 549 00:38:13.380 --> 00:38:16.739 So you know, workman number one was in Dalek. 550 00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:17.519 Oh was he? 551 00:38:17.579 --> 00:38:22.500 Yeah, he was the commander of Mr. Van Staten's guards. 552 00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:27.960 He's not had a good run. temporal displacement going on there. 553 00:38:28.260 --> 00:38:32.519 Yeah, I don't really have a problem with his scenes as Mr. Diagris. 554 00:38:32.579 --> 00:38:35.880 He's not the best in the world, but then I don't think the character's given all that much to work with. 555 00:38:35.940 --> 00:38:43.619 It's when what happens at the end of the episode where you get the very uncomfortable marriage between that actor, that character. 556 00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:45.239 The spectacular cloaca. 557 00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:49.260 Yeah, I think that's where it all goes off Quacker of Doom. 558 00:38:49.320 --> 00:38:55.199 Oh, that horrible scene where he's sort of down there and, you know, shot from beneath his James pointed out. 559 00:38:55.260 --> 00:39:10.139 Well, we we met Mark Strickson and Mark Strickson has been sort of a stuntman and he gave us tips on how to be menaced and how to be held onto and how to struggle against someone who's who's holding onto you. 560 00:39:10.199 --> 00:39:17.039 And that was all I could think about in that scene where he's he's such an actor being held onto by pig slaves. 561 00:39:17.099 --> 00:39:20.340 It's really, it's really not very convincing. 562 00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:25.920 And then, yes, the giant dalek, Clo Acre, that engulfs him is... 563 00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:28.800 I wonder if Russell was just commenting on the colour free base. 564 00:39:29.820 --> 00:39:30.780 I think. 565 00:39:30.840 --> 00:39:33.420 It is a funny scene. 566 00:39:33.480 --> 00:39:44.099 I mean, it gives it gives us new things for the Daleks to do, and it gives us some a CG Dalek mutant rather than the sort of puppet that we had in the in Dalek itself. 567 00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:52.500 It sort of goes back to, I think, one of the reasons these episodes aren't so successful is that they're the 1st time on paper, they sound amazing. 568 00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:58.619 They fail to fly, and I think it's the 1st time New Doc 2 is unintentionally camp in many ways. 569 00:39:58.679 --> 00:40:09.599 It sets out to be funny previously, and it may have had moments which were camp, but here, things don't fly, and so they become camp, and one of those things is Dalek Sec. 570 00:40:09.659 --> 00:40:12.119 So you've got Dalek Sec, who wants to become a human. 571 00:40:12.179 --> 00:40:27.000 He then reaches out, grabs Mr. Diagoras, pulls him into the casing, spends about 5 minutes, sort of rattling and sort of groaning about inside there, and then releases this creature with Mr. Diagoras's pinstripe suit and dalek sex head on top. 572 00:40:27.059 --> 00:40:29.460 I actually think that that is spectacular. 573 00:40:29.519 --> 00:40:37.980 And I don't think it comes off, but the fact that Dalek Sec is wearing a lovely suit for the 2nd episode and for that final scene is marvellous. 574 00:40:38.039 --> 00:40:41.280 It's a bit Scaroth, last of the check. 575 00:40:41.340 --> 00:40:41.699 Yeah, yeah. 576 00:40:41.760 --> 00:40:43.739 Look at the broad grins on your faces. 577 00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:47.039 You're liking it because it's so camp and I don't think it was meant to be. 578 00:40:47.639 --> 00:40:49.559 I think it absolutely was meant to be. 579 00:40:49.619 --> 00:40:50.820 Of course it was. 580 00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:53.099 I think they also, they blinked. 581 00:40:53.159 --> 00:40:59.400 And that's why you end up and possibly this is coloured like people's opinion of it. 582 00:40:59.460 --> 00:41:01.800 They went, oh, we're not so sure about this. 583 00:41:01.860 --> 00:41:03.960 And so they spoilt it. 584 00:41:04.019 --> 00:41:06.360 Let's take off the radio time. tentacles. 585 00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:08.280 Oh, yeah, that's crazy, isn't it? 586 00:41:08.340 --> 00:41:13.079 So Dalek Sec, the mutant, is on the front cover of the radio times that week. 587 00:41:13.139 --> 00:41:14.820 A giant close-up of his face. 588 00:41:14.880 --> 00:41:18.179 Yeah, and so they completely spoil that cliffhanger. 589 00:41:18.239 --> 00:41:20.940 Well, actually, it was on the radio times cover for the 2nd episode. 590 00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:21.840 Oh, okay. 591 00:41:21.900 --> 00:41:22.559 Yeah. 592 00:41:22.619 --> 00:41:23.519 But why? 593 00:41:23.940 --> 00:41:29.340 Why a close-up of something that just looks like a CGI blob on the cover of a magazine? 594 00:41:29.400 --> 00:41:30.179 With Willies on it. 595 00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:30.840 Exactly. 596 00:41:30.900 --> 00:41:33.780 And so that takes you back into the episode where you think, why did you do this? 597 00:41:33.840 --> 00:41:35.940 I think we've answered our own question. 598 00:41:36.239 --> 00:41:41.519 It's incredibly camp. don't believe for a 2nd that they were unaware of that. 599 00:41:41.639 --> 00:41:44.760 I don't think Russell's solely a fan of survivors and nothing else. 600 00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:47.820 I don't think he's ever said no to a show tune. 601 00:41:47.880 --> 00:41:48.780 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 602 00:41:48.840 --> 00:41:56.159 I really think that this is very classic Doctor Who. and that image of it is Scaroff, isn't it? 603 00:41:56.219 --> 00:41:58.139 It's like a squidhead in a lovely suit. 604 00:41:58.199 --> 00:42:02.340 It's funny we say that because I think it is nodding to the greats of the past. 605 00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:08.880 And one of them, one of them is Whittaker's exchanges and the other is Douglas Adams. 606 00:42:08.940 --> 00:42:18.480 And there's moments of just the mélange, if you like throw it all into the Dalek front loader and see what comes out, which is what Dalek Sec does. 607 00:42:18.539 --> 00:42:18.780 Yes. 608 00:42:18.840 --> 00:42:21.179 Covered in willies. 609 00:42:21.239 --> 00:42:22.739 How did that work out? 610 00:42:50.039 --> 00:42:52.019 Well, do we start it? 611 00:42:52.079 --> 00:43:02.280 Looks like Mr. Diagoras is in need of some fairly urgent assistance, so we're off to find him some spirit gum, and we'll be back next week in time to witness the evolution of the Daleks. 612 00:43:02.340 --> 00:43:12.059 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us at flightsthroughentirety.com, flights through entirety on Facebook, and at FTE podcast on Twitter. 613 00:43:12.119 --> 00:43:26.400 You can also find our series 11 flashcast, Jody interterra at Jody interterra.com and at Jody interterra on Twitter at our James Bond commentary podcast, Bondfinger at bondfinger.com at bondfinger on Facebook and at bondfingercast on Twitter. 614 00:43:26.460 --> 00:43:30.840 Until next time, remember, your heart might break, but the show goes on. 615 00:43:30.900 --> 00:43:32.280 So we'll see you next week. 616 00:43:32.340 --> 00:43:34.380 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 617 00:43:34.440 --> 00:43:35.039 Goodbye. 618 00:43:35.039 --> 00:43:35.639 Good night. 619 00:43:35.699 --> 00:43:36.300 Good then. 620 00:43:39.420 --> 00:43:44.820 That was Flight 3 Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffiths, James Selwood, and Richard Stone. 621 00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:48.719 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings performance by Jane Orberg. 622 00:43:48.840 --> 00:43:56.039 This episode, the Big Busby Berkeley number, was recorded on the 11th of August 2019 and released on the 6th of October. 623 00:43:59.099 --> 00:44:03.059 Fans of Musical Theatre will enjoy our upcoming online operetta. 624 00:44:03.119 --> 00:44:11.460 All these Huguenots look the same to me, a sung-through version of the massacre, with music by Steven Sondheim and lyrics by Eric Sayward. 625 00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:17.400 But also, it's touched on Campley because the Daleks bitch at each other constantly. 626 00:44:17.460 --> 00:44:27.719 They're always arguing and say, you know, it's capped off, obviously by the wonderful scene where the Daleks look around them to make sure no one's listening before they start bitching. 627 00:44:27.780 --> 00:44:29.219 Isn't that part 2? 628 00:44:29.340 --> 00:44:30.599 We should probably talk about that next week. 629 00:44:30.659 --> 00:44:31.019 Oh, is it? 630 00:44:31.019 --> 00:44:38.400 Yeah, let's I would actually quite like to end this episode on the discussion of Willy's just to be... 631 00:44:38.460 --> 00:44:42.539 The set dance look like the Grace Brothers are you being served shop, doesn't it? 632 00:44:42.599 --> 00:44:46.440 So when the Daleks are all gathering gathering around the haberdashery to have a moan. 633 00:44:46.500 --> 00:44:48.239 Get that joke next week. 634 00:44:50.219 --> 00:44:51.480 First flop perfumer. 635 00:44:51.539 --> 00:44:53.159 We do too. 636 00:44:53.159 --> 00:44:58.800 And we didn't talk at all about Mr. Diagoras. like his name and that, but I mean, that's nice. 637 00:44:58.980 --> 00:44:59.639 Can we do that next week? 638 00:44:59.699 --> 00:45:00.659 Because I really do want to hear that. 639 00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:06.300 Also, I mean, like, Tallula is named after... 640 00:45:06.360 --> 00:45:07.380 We get there when we do names. 641 00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:09.599 Talula is named after... 642 00:45:09.960 --> 00:45:10.559 To Lulu. 643 00:45:10.559 --> 00:45:11.400 Okay. 644 00:45:11.460 --> 00:45:12.420 Jodie Foster's. 645 00:45:12.480 --> 00:45:13.380 Sorry, Jane Foster. 646 00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:15.780 Jodie Foster's character in Bugsy Mine. 647 00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:16.619 Oh, she is too. 648 00:45:16.679 --> 00:45:17.639 Oh, see, that's clever. 649 00:45:17.699 --> 00:45:18.840 Well, let's do that next week. 650 00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:19.679 Yeah. 651 00:45:19.739 --> 00:45:22.920 I think we talk more about that because there's not that much to talk about next week. 652 00:45:23.579 --> 00:45:28.739 Okay, so let's let's just do the let's do the outro. 653 00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:30.480 So like so many people. 654 00:45:33.539 --> 00:45:34.679 All right, here goes. 655 00:45:34.739 --> 00:45:37.500 You've got a nice young man tied up upstairs. 656 00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:38.579 Devil and me. 657 00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:39.360 Yeah, okay. 658 00:45:39.420 --> 00:45:40.619 Pussy. 659 00:45:40.739 --> 00:45:41.940 Is that next week or this week? 660 00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:42.599 Is it? 661 00:45:42.659 --> 00:45:43.800 I thought it was episode one. 662 00:45:43.860 --> 00:45:46.860 Well, where's the big Buzz Berkeley number with Martha? 663 00:45:46.920 --> 00:45:48.539 Is that this week or? 664 00:45:48.539 --> 00:45:49.440 No, that's episode one. 665 00:45:49.500 --> 00:45:52.619 Yeah, because like it's the whole Laslow thing. 666 00:45:52.679 --> 00:46:00.059 What draws them down into the sewers is her seeing Laszlo. and she chases after him. and they're getting into the series. 667 00:46:00.119 --> 00:46:00.780 That's episode one. 668 00:46:00.840 --> 00:46:01.679 Okay, all right. 669 00:46:01.739 --> 00:46:03.239 Should we do should we do an outro? 670 00:46:05.340 --> 00:46:09.179 Well, dear listener, it looks like Mr. Diagoras is in fuck.