WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 12:54:44 1 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:40.020 Hello, Delister, and welcome back to Flight for Entirety, the only 2 00:00:40.020 --> 00:00:41.280 Doctor Who podcast. 3 00:00:41.340 --> 00:00:44.820 Entirely hosted by men who are into musical theatre. 4 00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:46.259 I'm Nathan. 5 00:00:46.320 --> 00:00:47.159 I'm Lisa. 6 00:00:47.219 --> 00:00:48.000 I'm James. 7 00:00:48.060 --> 00:00:51.960 And I'm a mounted mooring mast barnacled with dalek bulls for this 8 00:00:51.960 --> 00:00:52.140 one. 9 00:00:53.700 --> 00:00:57.659 Well, we're back in old New York, but the metaphors for late 10 00:00:57.659 --> 00:00:59.520 capitalism are still everywhere to be found. 11 00:00:59.579 --> 00:01:03.719 The boss is watching and starvation is just one insolent remark 12 00:01:03.719 --> 00:01:08.099 away because it turns out that our supervisors are Daleks in 13 00:01:08.099 --> 00:01:08.760 Manhattan. 14 00:01:23.819 --> 00:01:27.599 So, this is a very highly regarded two partner, I think. 15 00:01:27.659 --> 00:01:28.560 Is that right? 16 00:01:28.620 --> 00:01:31.859 Am I, you know, do I have my finger on the pulse of fan wisdom for 17 00:01:31.859 --> 00:01:32.219 this one? 18 00:01:32.280 --> 00:01:33.659 I don't think that is right now. 19 00:01:33.780 --> 00:01:34.920 How can it not be? 20 00:01:34.980 --> 00:01:39.959 When I went to New York for the 3rd time, and the 1st thing I got 21 00:01:39.959 --> 00:01:44.340 off the, I got off the plane ran inside, even before I made the 22 00:01:44.340 --> 00:01:47.760 pit stop, was to turn it up to telly on and put this on again. 23 00:01:48.540 --> 00:01:50.640 I'm packed with this on. 24 00:01:50.700 --> 00:01:51.659 Truly. 25 00:01:51.719 --> 00:01:55.379 I have to say that I haven't really watched this all that often. 26 00:01:55.500 --> 00:01:58.079 And so watching it in preparation for the podcast. 27 00:01:58.140 --> 00:02:00.659 I was actually surprised by how much fun it is. 28 00:02:01.079 --> 00:02:03.239 It is fun in places. 29 00:02:03.299 --> 00:02:06.000 I mean, the last time I went to New York, I arrived at the base of 30 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:08.819 the Statue of Liberty, to the strains of George Gershwin, and I 31 00:02:08.819 --> 00:02:09.539 felt like I was there. 32 00:02:12.060 --> 00:02:15.120 So what goes wrong with it? 33 00:02:15.180 --> 00:02:16.620 Why do people not like it, do we think? 34 00:02:16.680 --> 00:02:21.419 I think its ambitions are greater than its delivery. 35 00:02:21.479 --> 00:02:22.319 Yeah. 36 00:02:22.379 --> 00:02:29.879 It really relies super heavily on some pretty ropey CG Matt shots 37 00:02:29.879 --> 00:02:30.360 and the staff. 38 00:02:30.419 --> 00:02:31.139 Really? 39 00:02:31.199 --> 00:02:35.580 Well, are we going to starving those fans before we've even had 40 00:02:35.580 --> 00:02:36.300 our 1st gulp? 41 00:02:36.360 --> 00:02:39.060 Well, I actually think that that's a bad take. 42 00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:42.300 I would fast sooner that Doctor Who tried to be visually ambitious 43 00:02:42.300 --> 00:02:43.979 and tried to look interesting. 44 00:02:44.099 --> 00:02:49.199 But certainly people, I think, compare it unfavourably to our 45 00:02:49.199 --> 00:02:53.400 other Manhattan Doctor Who story where they actually go and sort 46 00:02:53.400 --> 00:02:54.659 of shoot in Central Park. 47 00:02:54.719 --> 00:02:58.379 But I, you know, have no memory. 48 00:02:58.439 --> 00:03:01.319 And it looks exactly like Swansea. 49 00:03:01.379 --> 00:03:03.000 So there you go. 50 00:03:03.060 --> 00:03:03.840 There is a Swansea. 51 00:03:03.900 --> 00:03:06.780 I'd like to say why this is so beautiful then, because, yeah, okay 52 00:03:06.780 --> 00:03:09.479 we could then, if you want to be naked, nelly, because, you know 53 00:03:09.479 --> 00:03:09.780 hi. 54 00:03:10.439 --> 00:03:12.539 Hi, we're right here. 55 00:03:12.599 --> 00:03:15.360 It's the pace of the and feel of it. 56 00:03:15.419 --> 00:03:16.740 No, the feel is superb. 57 00:03:16.800 --> 00:03:20.400 The pace maybe slacks off a little bit in the 2nd episode, and I 58 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:23.580 think some of the performers are kind of looking at each other 59 00:03:23.580 --> 00:03:25.500 working out, hey, director, what am I doing here? 60 00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:29.520 You're getting that, especially with Mr. Pinstripe, Diagolev. 61 00:03:29.580 --> 00:03:29.939 What his name? 62 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:30.719 The ballet Ruse. 63 00:03:30.780 --> 00:03:31.860 That guy. 64 00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:33.599 Mr. Eater. 65 00:03:33.659 --> 00:03:34.620 Mr. Diagonal. 66 00:03:34.680 --> 00:03:38.639 Yeah, but more about him from later, I hope. 67 00:03:38.759 --> 00:03:42.000 But it's got the joy of the jazz age deco. 68 00:03:42.060 --> 00:03:43.319 It's got the Gersh ones. 69 00:03:43.379 --> 00:03:46.199 That's where I'll be sticking it this week. 70 00:03:46.259 --> 00:03:47.580 What did you think? 71 00:03:47.639 --> 00:03:50.520 And actually, Nathan, you talked about the fact that it gets 72 00:03:50.520 --> 00:03:53.159 criticised for kind of the establishing shots and things like 73 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:53.340 that. 74 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:53.819 Is that right? 75 00:03:53.879 --> 00:03:56.400 I mean, I think that they lend it much of its atmosphere. 76 00:03:56.460 --> 00:04:00.240 All those lovely sort of skyline shots of the 1930s. 77 00:04:00.360 --> 00:04:03.780 I mean, yeah, obviously, they weren't there, but it does lend it 78 00:04:03.780 --> 00:04:05.639 sort of, you know, a nice feel. 79 00:04:05.699 --> 00:04:09.659 Oh, I have to say that one shot of the Empire State building that 80 00:04:09.659 --> 00:04:13.020 they keep matting into Central Park with like Solomon standing in 81 00:04:13.020 --> 00:04:15.840 front of it and that there is no place in Central Park that will 82 00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:17.339 give you that. 83 00:04:17.399 --> 00:04:21.959 I was like, they've moved it up to 60th. right on the park. 84 00:04:22.019 --> 00:04:26.339 The MI Street building is about 2.5 kilometres from... 85 00:04:26.339 --> 00:04:28.560 I've walked it and yes, it's quite a walk. 86 00:04:28.620 --> 00:04:31.439 Yeah, you can't, you can't, you, Helen. not that close. 87 00:04:31.500 --> 00:04:37.980 Same same with the shot when they land on Liberty Island and 88 00:04:37.980 --> 00:04:40.920 they're looking at the Manhattan skyline. 89 00:04:40.980 --> 00:04:42.959 It looks something like that. 90 00:04:43.019 --> 00:04:44.100 Are they looking at Midtown? 91 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:49.319 Like, yeah, the Empire State Building is miles away from... 92 00:04:49.379 --> 00:04:49.860 Yeah, they are. 93 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:51.959 They're looking at Midtown from Liberty Island. 94 00:04:52.019 --> 00:04:55.199 We descended into other podcast realities now. 95 00:04:55.259 --> 00:05:00.180 That's right I demand better geographical accuracy from my Doctor 96 00:05:00.180 --> 00:05:00.660 Who. 97 00:05:05.220 --> 00:05:09.240 Although having said that, the fact that where the Empire State 98 00:05:09.240 --> 00:05:13.079 Building is situated is so well known makes it really obvious. 99 00:05:13.139 --> 00:05:18.120 But is it, is it to Mr. and Mrs. Kuffoops in Swansea? 100 00:05:18.180 --> 00:05:21.480 Because there's a lot of Austrian and German descendants who ended 101 00:05:21.480 --> 00:05:23.759 up in Wales after the war. 102 00:05:23.819 --> 00:05:26.279 How can you not love this? 103 00:05:26.399 --> 00:05:27.779 No, really. that's my question. 104 00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:28.560 How could you not? 105 00:05:28.620 --> 00:05:30.540 It's got Gershwin swelling up the ranks. 106 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:33.480 There you go, banging away with his rhapsodies. 107 00:05:33.660 --> 00:05:35.339 It's true. 108 00:05:35.399 --> 00:05:39.120 Just this great swell of hope and joy. and it's absolutely 109 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:39.600 perfect. 110 00:05:39.720 --> 00:05:42.600 I think Russell is simply saying, come on, UK, they could do it. 111 00:05:42.660 --> 00:05:43.259 We can do it. 112 00:05:43.319 --> 00:05:45.959 I would tend to agree with you on that, Richard. 113 00:05:46.019 --> 00:05:51.480 It's much better than, I think we all have been led to remember. 114 00:05:51.540 --> 00:05:57.300 It tends to, I think, be derided as one of the worst stories. 115 00:05:57.420 --> 00:05:58.560 Is it really of the season? 116 00:05:58.620 --> 00:05:59.579 Why? 117 00:05:59.639 --> 00:06:00.720 I'm quite serious. 118 00:06:00.839 --> 00:06:04.019 We haven't even touched on the plumping muskety deliciousness of 119 00:06:04.019 --> 00:06:07.139 Miranda Raisin, but received fan wisdom. 120 00:06:07.199 --> 00:06:11.639 I watched it for the podcast this week and I really enjoyed 121 00:06:11.639 --> 00:06:12.120 myself. 122 00:06:12.180 --> 00:06:14.279 Yeah, I have to say I did as well. 123 00:06:14.339 --> 00:06:17.399 And it is in a kind of mythical New York and we've just come from 124 00:06:17.399 --> 00:06:21.899 a future New York and there is dialogue, I think, in this episode 125 00:06:21.899 --> 00:06:26.160 where Mr. Diagoras and the and the Dalek have a conversation about 126 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:28.319 New York being a thing that kind of recurs. 127 00:06:28.439 --> 00:06:32.100 When they're looking out over the city from, yeah, from floor 128 00:06:32.100 --> 00:06:32.459 100. 129 00:06:32.579 --> 00:06:36.360 And so it's Central Park, it's the Empire State Building, and 130 00:06:36.360 --> 00:06:37.319 it's... 131 00:06:37.319 --> 00:06:38.100 George Goshwin. 132 00:06:38.160 --> 00:06:41.879 Yeah, it's Peter Purvis in that rubber suit, isn't it? 133 00:06:41.939 --> 00:06:42.300 in that. 134 00:06:42.300 --> 00:06:43.379 Definitely, he's there. 135 00:06:43.439 --> 00:06:45.060 Yeah, yeah, in one of those little moments. 136 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:46.379 He's probably in the vomvum machine. 137 00:06:46.439 --> 00:06:49.379 But it makes sense that Russell's doing the same thing to New York 138 00:06:49.379 --> 00:06:50.339 that he does to London. 139 00:06:50.459 --> 00:06:53.220 He presents a pitched postcard version of London where every time 140 00:06:53.220 --> 00:06:56.339 you go there, you've got, you know, the the eye and you've got 141 00:06:56.339 --> 00:06:58.079 tower bridge and things like that. 142 00:06:58.139 --> 00:07:00.540 And so it just makes sense that if you go to New York, you sort of 143 00:07:00.540 --> 00:07:02.459 sketch it in with a couple of broad strokes and you're there. 144 00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:03.240 Yeah, yeah. 145 00:07:03.300 --> 00:07:05.819 Of course, this isn't the 1st time we've been to New York as you 146 00:07:05.819 --> 00:07:09.240 just implied. you know what which episode that's in. 147 00:07:09.300 --> 00:07:10.920 The chase. 148 00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:12.060 Flight through eternity. 149 00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:13.920 All right. 150 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:17.279 And we're home. 151 00:07:18.839 --> 00:07:22.019 Has anyone ever pointed out, by the way, then flight through 152 00:07:22.019 --> 00:07:24.000 eternity, Ian and Barbara actually get home. 153 00:07:24.060 --> 00:07:26.879 They've just got to jump on an ocean liner and... 154 00:07:26.939 --> 00:07:27.899 Yeah, I think they have. 155 00:07:27.959 --> 00:07:29.399 Why didn't they just go home? 156 00:07:29.879 --> 00:07:34.379 So you want to know, you want to know Russell's head cannon for 157 00:07:34.379 --> 00:07:34.560 that? 158 00:07:34.620 --> 00:07:35.279 Oh, no. 159 00:07:35.339 --> 00:07:42.600 So he actually had cannoned, it's in the confidential episode, that 160 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:47.879 the Daleks remembered the time they bumped into Morton Dill on top 161 00:07:47.879 --> 00:07:50.100 of the Empire State Building, and when they were doing their 162 00:07:50.100 --> 00:07:54.540 emergency temporal shift at the end of Doomsday, they remembered 163 00:07:54.540 --> 00:07:58.259 oh, you know, that building that we landed on, like, brilliant 164 00:07:58.259 --> 00:07:59.579 back in the 60s. 165 00:07:59.579 --> 00:08:01.139 We'll go back and build that. 166 00:08:01.259 --> 00:08:01.740 Yeah. 167 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:04.259 Well, it's not implied that they build it. 168 00:08:04.319 --> 00:08:05.040 They just take it over. 169 00:08:05.100 --> 00:08:06.959 No, yeah, they finish it off. 170 00:08:07.019 --> 00:08:10.019 They had another, but this is actually, oh, archie nerds. 171 00:08:10.079 --> 00:08:10.680 Hello, my people. 172 00:08:10.740 --> 00:08:13.680 They did in fact add another... 173 00:08:14.519 --> 00:08:17.160 Oh, I think it ends up being about 3 metres to it because the 174 00:08:17.160 --> 00:08:22.500 Chrysler had already been built, but they needed to top to be the 175 00:08:22.500 --> 00:08:23.160 tallest. 176 00:08:23.220 --> 00:08:24.480 So right at the end of the build. 177 00:08:24.540 --> 00:08:27.899 They did actually add an extra, at least a minimum of a metre and 178 00:08:27.899 --> 00:08:28.199 a half . 179 00:08:28.259 --> 00:08:30.120 Dalek balls, yes. 180 00:08:30.180 --> 00:08:30.720 Yeah, yeah. 181 00:08:30.779 --> 00:08:33.000 I mean, it's it's a symbol. 182 00:08:33.059 --> 00:08:35.580 I like to think that they built it in the same way that Torchwood 183 00:08:35.580 --> 00:08:40.019 built Torchwood Tower because here with hope and absolutely no 184 00:08:40.019 --> 00:08:40.860 structure. 185 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:45.480 Well, here, here, though, the Daleks are just very deliberately 186 00:08:45.480 --> 00:08:49.740 and perhaps for the 1st time, being used as a metaphor for capital 187 00:08:49.740 --> 00:08:54.960 and here, we've gone from communism to Nazism to neoliberalism. 188 00:08:55.019 --> 00:08:56.580 Yeah, now they're capitalism, I think. 189 00:08:56.639 --> 00:09:02.759 And so the main area that much of this is said is Hooverville, and 190 00:09:02.759 --> 00:09:05.759 we get a little history lesson because I don't think Hooverville 191 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:07.919 is sort of very widely known about. 192 00:09:07.980 --> 00:09:09.480 It was also under a bridge. 193 00:09:09.539 --> 00:09:11.460 Well, there were several Hoover bills, but the main one was on 194 00:09:11.460 --> 00:09:11.759 there. 195 00:09:12.539 --> 00:09:14.220 Hooberals across the United States. 196 00:09:14.279 --> 00:09:17.100 Yeah, so like just tent cities. 197 00:09:17.159 --> 00:09:21.539 Yeah, like literally refugee cities in the middle of the middle of 198 00:09:21.539 --> 00:09:23.340 all these major American cities. 199 00:09:23.460 --> 00:09:25.980 There were 100s of 1000s of people living in those. 200 00:09:26.039 --> 00:09:31.919 And so you get the Daleks sort of preying on these people and 201 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:39.960 these people are used by capitalism, I think, in order to have 202 00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:41.100 access to cheap labour. 203 00:09:41.159 --> 00:09:44.700 So the threat of Hooverville, the fact that you can just be thrown 204 00:09:44.700 --> 00:09:48.179 back into Hooverville at a moment's notice, if you raise your 205 00:09:48.179 --> 00:09:53.039 voice or say anything to the boss, is, I mean, it's a threat that 206 00:09:53.039 --> 00:09:55.559 capitalism still uses today, I think. 207 00:09:55.620 --> 00:09:59.879 I mean, one of the reasons in Australia, we're having a big debate 208 00:09:59.879 --> 00:10:03.600 about the level of unemployment benefits, which are miserable and 209 00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:04.919 impossible to live on. 210 00:10:04.980 --> 00:10:10.799 And those levels, I think, are low, not just because the channel 9 211 00:10:10.799 --> 00:10:14.519 audience won't wear more of their tax money going to dole blunges 212 00:10:14.519 --> 00:10:20.820 but because it makes unemployment a threat and means that people 213 00:10:20.820 --> 00:10:25.139 can have less bargaining power when they're in work. 214 00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:27.840 And that's very much here. 215 00:10:27.899 --> 00:10:32.220 You know, Mr. Diagoras comes out and gives people work that is 216 00:10:32.220 --> 00:10:35.279 dangerous, that they might die from. 217 00:10:35.340 --> 00:10:38.879 He pays them a dollar a day and they basically have no choice but 218 00:10:38.879 --> 00:10:41.700 to take it because Hooveville. 219 00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:47.279 And so we see the Daleks are Deco as well, aren't they? 220 00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:51.179 In the way that and always have been, well, since. certainly the 221 00:10:51.179 --> 00:10:55.139 reboot, they are, the brassy baseless substances, aren't they? 222 00:10:55.200 --> 00:11:01.019 Yeah, yeah. hollow tin men that rule without favour or thought. 223 00:11:01.080 --> 00:11:04.559 And so they belong in the Empire State Building. 224 00:11:04.620 --> 00:11:08.940 And so what you have is this sort of, you know, Russell's usual 225 00:11:08.940 --> 00:11:13.620 verticality where you have capital on top looming over. 226 00:11:13.679 --> 00:11:18.179 That's why it's visible from Central Park so that you can look up 227 00:11:18.179 --> 00:11:23.820 and see what everyone's building with the profit that they are 228 00:11:23.820 --> 00:11:26.700 accruing as a result of your labour. 229 00:11:26.759 --> 00:11:28.679 Writers and artists knew this. 230 00:11:28.740 --> 00:11:33.299 That visionary spectacle of the city that we see in things like 231 00:11:33.299 --> 00:11:37.740 metropolis or later transposed to the US in just imagine, based on 232 00:11:37.740 --> 00:11:42.840 the drawings of beautiful charcoal and gosh and graphite drawings 233 00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:46.200 of an architect called Hugh Ferris, and they're seen now as being 234 00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:49.620 visionary and beautiful and great towering, you know, glass 235 00:11:49.620 --> 00:11:54.960 sculptures and labyrinths of canyons of beauty and structure. 236 00:11:55.019 --> 00:11:56.519 But he was actually saying, no, hang on. 237 00:11:56.580 --> 00:11:58.139 This is the warning. 238 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:01.919 And journalists and artists and writers saw this as exactly what 239 00:12:01.919 --> 00:12:04.740 you're saying, that there is a danger that we are building these 240 00:12:04.740 --> 00:12:09.659 identify to crush the persons below, you know, the Weimey knew 241 00:12:09.659 --> 00:12:09.899 it. 242 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:12.720 What was happening in Germany in the 20s is exactly what was 243 00:12:12.720 --> 00:12:15.779 happening in New York, and even in Australia, in the UK. 244 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:19.860 These were visions of Gog and Magog. 245 00:12:19.919 --> 00:12:22.679 These are these are the temples where capital is. 246 00:12:22.740 --> 00:12:24.299 It's an interesting choice. 247 00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:27.120 I mean, to use the Daleks in that way, because the obvious choice 248 00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:31.320 course is fascism and fascism is flourishing at this point in 249 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:31.799 history. 250 00:12:31.860 --> 00:12:35.279 So that the fact they didn't go the route you would expect is 251 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:36.240 interesting in itself. 252 00:12:36.299 --> 00:12:39.899 Yeah, I think, you know, the Daleks aren't ever used for that. 253 00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:45.419 And we talked in our Cyberman episode, where there's evidence that 254 00:12:45.419 --> 00:12:50.639 that alternative world, Pete's world is a world which is, you know 255 00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:52.139 borderline fashist. 256 00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:55.740 There's Zeppelins, there's massive wealth inequality. 257 00:12:55.799 --> 00:13:00.240 And there's sort of stylish Hugo boss design sort of cyberman. 258 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:02.100 And that was what we talked about at length. 259 00:13:02.159 --> 00:13:05.159 So we've seen the cybermen being used as symbols of fascism. 260 00:13:05.220 --> 00:13:07.620 And here it isn't fascism, is it? 261 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:10.080 It is capitalism that's being talked about. 262 00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:12.779 But like a lot of mixed fibre articles. 263 00:13:12.840 --> 00:13:14.700 They tend to bleed together in the wash, don't they? 264 00:13:20.820 --> 00:13:28.019 So we arrive at a wall somewhere in Cardiff with Lady Liberty 265 00:13:28.019 --> 00:13:28.919 gives Great Wall. 266 00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:30.659 Matted in, sort of above it. 267 00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:32.820 And there's a big thing in the confidential about finding the 268 00:13:32.820 --> 00:13:33.899 right wall, isn't there? 269 00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:36.360 Did you watch the confidential, James? 270 00:13:36.419 --> 00:13:40.679 I seem to remember them being very proud of, you know, scouting a 271 00:13:40.679 --> 00:13:41.220 war. 272 00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:42.299 Oh, yes, yes, yes. 273 00:13:42.360 --> 00:13:45.840 But that's, that's, that's in, that's at the end of episode two. 274 00:13:45.899 --> 00:13:47.220 Talking about confidential. 275 00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:48.659 I mean, what were they going to do earlier? 276 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:50.879 It was only the fact that confidential was going to New York 277 00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:54.360 actually going there to, I think, look at some of the locations or 278 00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:56.700 whatever, that they were able to hitch along and get some of these 279 00:13:56.700 --> 00:13:57.480 match shots. 280 00:13:57.539 --> 00:14:01.379 So it came out of confidentials budget. absolutely. 281 00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:03.059 They couldn't afford it on the Dot 2 budget. 282 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:07.919 So there's a great, there's a great anecdote about that wall in 283 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:16.440 confidential, where David just has to go at Phil Collins and 284 00:14:16.440 --> 00:14:23.340 because he, and the director and the, I think it was the art 285 00:14:23.340 --> 00:14:27.960 director and the confidential crew all went to Manhattan for the 286 00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:31.740 weekend whilst they got stuck in a car park in Penarth. 287 00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:36.899 He did seem actually genuinely annoyed as well. 288 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:39.600 Like he was trying to be funny about it, but there was no kind of 289 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:42.299 masking the actual genuine annoyance there. 290 00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:45.899 So and it looks like Martha's trip has been extended. 291 00:14:45.960 --> 00:14:47.759 And nothing is really said about it. 292 00:14:47.820 --> 00:14:50.940 We don't get any previously on Doctor Who. 293 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:57.539 There was actually a deleted scene set in the TARDIS where Martha 294 00:14:57.539 --> 00:15:00.960 basically is like, oh, you know, come on, like one last trip and 295 00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:04.679 he's like, oh, well, right, then I'll take you to... 296 00:15:04.740 --> 00:15:06.179 Exactly, Blackpool. 297 00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:10.139 But that was edited out for timing. 298 00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:12.840 Do we not think that undermines the character of Martha a little 299 00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:13.080 bit? 300 00:15:13.139 --> 00:15:16.200 He's like, he's really grudging in sort of taking on every 301 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:16.740 adventure. 302 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:19.019 It makes her feel like she's just a bit of a stand-in. 303 00:15:19.080 --> 00:15:22.379 We'll talk about that more next week because I think he's quite 304 00:15:22.379 --> 00:15:24.600 horrible to her at the end of next week's episode. 305 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:27.840 I think it's right to remove that scene. 306 00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:29.220 Yeah. for tone. 307 00:15:29.340 --> 00:15:34.200 Because he is, like you say, terrible to her. 308 00:15:34.379 --> 00:15:38.820 And I don't think we need like our 4th episode in a row with a 309 00:15:38.820 --> 00:15:42.360 doctor grudgingly saying you get one trip and then you're going. 310 00:15:42.419 --> 00:15:43.379 We've had... 311 00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:44.039 Yeah, we get it. 312 00:15:44.100 --> 00:15:44.759 You loved Rose. 313 00:15:44.820 --> 00:15:45.179 We get it. 314 00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:46.019 Yeah, yeah. 315 00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:48.059 And it is actually sort of quite nice. 316 00:15:48.120 --> 00:15:49.919 She is so enthusiastic, isn't she? 317 00:15:49.980 --> 00:15:53.580 And she's smart, sort of straight away. she's able to tell what 318 00:15:53.580 --> 00:15:56.039 time it is while the doctor's sort of still sniffing the air. 319 00:15:56.100 --> 00:15:59.279 Are we getting some truth in fiction simulacra here? 320 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:02.820 If you've got your FTE bingo card, dear listener out. 321 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:04.799 Which word did we just use then? 322 00:16:04.860 --> 00:16:05.220 Tick? 323 00:16:05.279 --> 00:16:06.419 Are we getting any of that here? 324 00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:07.860 Well, I don't know. 325 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:10.259 It is sort of early on in the year. 326 00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:15.539 But certainly it does seem like David enjoyed working with Billy 327 00:16:15.539 --> 00:16:18.240 and didn't enjoy working with Freeman quite so much. 328 00:16:18.299 --> 00:16:21.539 And I'm not entirely sure why that is. 329 00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:28.200 But certainly she has a real enthusiasm and it really bleeds into 330 00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:31.620 her portrayal of Martha, I think it's a good term. 331 00:16:31.740 --> 00:16:36.299 Bleeds is a good turn because I do feel that one of Russell's 332 00:16:36.299 --> 00:16:38.820 great strengths with people and the reason he's so popular and 333 00:16:38.820 --> 00:16:42.539 continues to be is he's meta writing that the personalities of his 334 00:16:42.539 --> 00:16:47.700 performers become in part the characterisations of his players. 335 00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:51.000 And so therefore, Freeman's enthusiasm. 336 00:16:51.059 --> 00:16:54.059 David's perhaps looking at what he's going to be doing with the 337 00:16:54.059 --> 00:16:56.039 role, he's midway through. 338 00:16:56.100 --> 00:16:58.080 You always get that on we, don't you? 339 00:16:58.200 --> 00:17:01.559 It seems to be the Pat Trouton 2nd season, you know, or, you know 340 00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:04.740 it took John a bit longer, but we've seen we've seen this before. 341 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:07.559 I think Russell's great skill is putting the truthiness of the 342 00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:08.819 actors into the parts. 343 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:12.900 I think as well, so much for it relies on Freema's charisma 344 00:17:12.900 --> 00:17:15.119 because Martha's actually quite an underwritten character. 345 00:17:15.180 --> 00:17:17.400 She's really underwritten, isn't she? 346 00:17:17.460 --> 00:17:19.559 She gets very little to do in this episode. 347 00:17:19.619 --> 00:17:22.740 She traipses around, you know, behind the doctor. 348 00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:25.680 But she gets to do best girlfriend thing with my favourite thing 349 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:26.099 in the season. 350 00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:28.980 We'll get to that next week, which I think is absolutely 351 00:17:28.980 --> 00:17:29.640 wonderful. 352 00:17:29.700 --> 00:17:32.220 Her and Tallula are terrific together. 353 00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:33.299 Can't have too many L's. 354 00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:33.839 Yeah, yeah. 355 00:17:33.900 --> 00:17:36.059 Well, once she's out from under David's shadows. 356 00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:39.059 She's, you know, she gets to do some things, but here she gets 357 00:17:39.059 --> 00:17:40.079 captured. 358 00:17:40.140 --> 00:17:42.539 I mean, she gets a brave moment with a darling. 359 00:17:42.599 --> 00:17:45.119 She's pretty well passive throughout the entire thing, but also 360 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:48.299 she does get 2 big scenes with Tulula, and both of them fail 361 00:17:48.299 --> 00:17:49.740 they'll test spectacularly. 362 00:17:50.220 --> 00:17:52.380 They were talking about Laslow. 363 00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:55.079 And then talking about, but you love the doctor, didn't you? 364 00:17:55.140 --> 00:17:56.220 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 365 00:17:56.279 --> 00:17:58.259 But it's also very 30s writing. 366 00:17:58.319 --> 00:17:59.220 Yeah. 367 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:02.940 And I think this is this is also mirroring and the reason I love 368 00:18:02.940 --> 00:18:06.539 it, it's George and Ira and Jerome Kern and Irving Berlin. 369 00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:11.460 But it's mirroring the structure and context of a 30s musical. 370 00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:13.380 I think that's wonderful too. 371 00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:17.940 I think the theatre location, Todd had a bit of a complaint that 372 00:18:17.940 --> 00:18:22.619 it started in the theatre and, you know, that the cold open ends 373 00:18:22.619 --> 00:18:25.079 with a pig slave rather than a dale. 374 00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:26.579 We're all mean to those shows. 375 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:29.880 But I love the theatre because I think it's a beautiful location 376 00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:33.420 that doesn't need to be kind of dressed particularly to look like 377 00:18:33.420 --> 00:18:34.380 the 1930s. 378 00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:36.660 Got a big entrance to a sewer in a dressing room. 379 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:37.920 Yeah, like you do. 380 00:18:38.039 --> 00:18:39.900 Actually, you know what? 381 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:41.460 All it needs is a giant rat. 382 00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:43.380 Yes exactly. 383 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:46.680 And some more diminution of the female leads. 384 00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:49.740 And also get your togs off, before we're there. 385 00:18:49.859 --> 00:18:55.140 That is a period appropriate theatring in the Welsh valleys. sewer 386 00:18:55.140 --> 00:18:55.500 and all. 387 00:18:55.559 --> 00:18:56.039 Yeah. 388 00:18:56.279 --> 00:18:58.259 Suran Jones, what? 389 00:18:59.940 --> 00:19:02.579 Well, let's give it a symbolic meaning. 390 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:06.839 I mean, she talks about, um, and again, it'll be next week, I 391 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:11.339 think, we discover her, the precarity of her situation as well. 392 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:15.180 She still has to work, even though Laszlo's gone because if she 393 00:19:15.180 --> 00:19:16.740 doesn't work, she'll starve. 394 00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:17.880 There's Hooverville. 395 00:19:17.940 --> 00:19:23.579 And so having her kind of sewer adjacent is, you know, kind of on 396 00:19:23.579 --> 00:19:24.900 point, I think, for the metaphor. 397 00:19:25.259 --> 00:19:29.400 I think you're lending this episode a little bit too much there. 398 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:33.779 I mean, it seems like all 3 of you have quite enjoyed this 399 00:19:33.779 --> 00:19:34.259 episode. 400 00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:36.779 I do enjoy it on its own merits. 401 00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:38.940 I just think that they're few and far between. 402 00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:49.859 I think I wanted to talk about the difference between plot and 403 00:19:49.859 --> 00:19:50.700 story. right? 404 00:19:50.759 --> 00:19:55.079 I don't think it has a story so much as a plot, this 1st episode. 405 00:19:55.200 --> 00:20:01.200 So it's introducing us to the world, but then it is just, you know 406 00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:04.019 Frank gets captured, that Martha gets captured. 407 00:20:04.140 --> 00:20:05.279 We all end up in a thing. 408 00:20:05.339 --> 00:20:06.779 It's very traditional. 409 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:11.519 Whereas, you know, the 1st of these 2 parters has a massive plot 410 00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:17.640 hook, which is aliens crash a spaceship into Big Ben, and he's our 411 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:18.960 very 1st invasion. 412 00:20:19.019 --> 00:20:25.799 This is much more like a classic series story in the way that it's 413 00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:28.859 plotted rather than having an overarching story. 414 00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:30.359 It is. 415 00:20:30.420 --> 00:20:34.079 I also, I think it does have a great idea at the centre of it, and 416 00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:36.599 there's something to be made of that story, and I think if, as 417 00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:40.680 originally intended, Stephen Moffat had written the 2 parter with 418 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:42.660 the Daleks, it could have been something really interesting. 419 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:46.619 But it just seems like the plotting is not really extending the 420 00:20:46.619 --> 00:20:47.279 story at all. 421 00:20:47.339 --> 00:20:50.460 There's an awful lot of detours, for instance, where they all go 422 00:20:50.460 --> 00:20:53.160 down the sewers the 1st time and wander through the sewers and see 423 00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:55.079 some pig sleeves and then come out of the sewers again. 424 00:20:55.140 --> 00:20:57.599 And you think, well, how does that progress the story in any way 425 00:20:57.599 --> 00:20:58.799 in an interesting direction? 426 00:20:58.859 --> 00:21:01.440 I think there's a lot of cul-de-sacs in this story like that. 427 00:21:01.500 --> 00:21:02.519 Yeah. 428 00:21:02.579 --> 00:21:05.460 There does seem to be a lot of going from place to place in order 429 00:21:05.460 --> 00:21:06.779 to kind of discover things. 430 00:21:06.900 --> 00:21:08.940 Yeah, and you know, that could be rookie stuff as well. 431 00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:10.380 I mean, the writer Helen Reena. 432 00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:12.180 This is her 1st episodes for the series. 433 00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:14.940 And so you don't expect magic 1st time out. 434 00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:17.940 But I think maybe Russell or Stephen would have made a little bit 435 00:21:17.940 --> 00:21:18.359 more of that. 436 00:21:18.420 --> 00:21:21.900 Is Russell busy or tired or something at this point? 437 00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:27.119 I think maybe Russell wasn't, well, maybe had the flu or 438 00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:27.420 something. 439 00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:28.440 I don't know. 440 00:21:28.500 --> 00:21:31.619 I can't quite remember, but I don't think these episodes received 441 00:21:31.619 --> 00:21:33.660 the full Russell treatment that most people do. 442 00:21:33.720 --> 00:21:37.799 Because, I mean, there are rustly things to them and certainly the 443 00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:38.940 character of Tallula. 444 00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:43.680 I think Tallula and Laszlo, like that that's a very kind of rustly 445 00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:48.960 thing to do, to have that kind of love story going on throughout 446 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:49.799 the entire time. 447 00:21:49.859 --> 00:21:54.420 And I think that Tallula is a truly great character, like an 448 00:21:54.420 --> 00:21:56.339 excellent Doctor Who character. 449 00:21:56.400 --> 00:21:57.599 Is she English? 450 00:21:57.660 --> 00:21:58.319 Yes. 451 00:21:58.440 --> 00:22:05.220 So like the accent is kind of movie starlet kind of accent, isn't 452 00:22:05.220 --> 00:22:05.339 it? 453 00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:07.380 I watch a lot of these things. think it's great. 454 00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:08.940 And they're actually, she's on point. 455 00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:09.779 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 456 00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:10.980 It's period appropriate. 457 00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:12.000 Yeah, exactly. 458 00:22:12.059 --> 00:22:13.319 And she does... 459 00:22:13.319 --> 00:22:16.200 It's a Hobogan New York Jewish accent. 460 00:22:16.259 --> 00:22:17.160 She does, that's great. 461 00:22:17.220 --> 00:22:19.680 She does a terrific job of selling the period, you know. 462 00:22:19.740 --> 00:22:21.000 And she's not dumb. 463 00:22:21.059 --> 00:22:23.460 Like it's one of those things that Doctor Who has sort of stopped 464 00:22:23.460 --> 00:22:27.900 doing, which is people in the past are not as clever as people 465 00:22:27.900 --> 00:22:28.140 now. 466 00:22:28.200 --> 00:22:29.339 She's smart. 467 00:22:29.460 --> 00:22:30.660 Get that coal in Vince. 468 00:22:32.819 --> 00:22:36.119 She's super likeable and really funny. 469 00:22:36.180 --> 00:22:37.319 I think she's terrific. 470 00:22:37.380 --> 00:22:39.660 And there is a real kind of sadness. 471 00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:42.119 I just think it's it's tremendous. 472 00:22:42.180 --> 00:22:47.400 I think fans are really hard on Helen Rayner, but she did actually 473 00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:50.880 come up with some of the more interesting plot elements in the 474 00:22:50.880 --> 00:22:51.240 story. 475 00:22:51.299 --> 00:22:56.279 Russell only really gave her the, I want this set in the 30s in 476 00:22:56.279 --> 00:22:56.940 Manhattan. 477 00:22:57.000 --> 00:22:58.200 Pig Slave, seal system. 478 00:22:58.259 --> 00:23:03.660 And she was the one who actually made the construction of the 479 00:23:03.660 --> 00:23:05.940 Empire State Building central to the plot. 480 00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:06.599 Right. 481 00:23:06.660 --> 00:23:12.539 And that all came out of her research into the building. 482 00:23:12.539 --> 00:23:16.859 And the fact that during the construction, the press was really 483 00:23:16.859 --> 00:23:19.559 vague about what the master was for. 484 00:23:19.619 --> 00:23:20.339 Right. 485 00:23:20.339 --> 00:23:22.920 Well, it was actually just the to be the hire. 486 00:23:22.980 --> 00:23:25.920 Yeah, it was also, no, they are lightning masks. 487 00:23:25.980 --> 00:23:27.359 They are the conductor masks. 488 00:23:27.420 --> 00:23:30.779 And they were also mooring masts because the idea was, seriously 489 00:23:30.779 --> 00:23:32.819 that airships. 490 00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:34.799 For Zenitids, yeah. 491 00:23:34.859 --> 00:23:36.839 King Kong to hang on to. 492 00:23:38.279 --> 00:23:43.740 So she made that part of the Daleks plan to construct a hire, like 493 00:23:43.740 --> 00:23:47.700 to instruct the mast so that it could be used for their evil 494 00:23:47.700 --> 00:23:48.359 experiment. 495 00:23:48.420 --> 00:23:49.619 But you see, that's great. 496 00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:53.220 And I do think Helen Rainer gets a rough trot from fans. 497 00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:55.859 I think she's better than the reviews would suggest. 498 00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:57.359 But again, that's concept. 499 00:23:57.420 --> 00:23:58.380 That's not plotting. 500 00:23:58.440 --> 00:23:59.279 I don't know. 501 00:23:59.339 --> 00:24:02.940 Yeah, I mean, the plotting is very Trad, I think. 502 00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:06.839 I think that the treatment of Helen Rayner after this episode airs 503 00:24:06.839 --> 00:24:09.779 is a massive black mark on fandom. 504 00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:12.720 It was disgraceful and What happened? 505 00:24:12.779 --> 00:24:15.960 Well, I think, you know, Gallifrey Bass or whatever it was back 506 00:24:15.960 --> 00:24:21.839 then, just kind of slammed her quite personally. quite a 507 00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:22.680 misogynist way. 508 00:24:22.740 --> 00:24:25.200 Yeah, well that's right. she the 1st woman to write for the new 509 00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:25.500 series? 510 00:24:25.559 --> 00:24:26.039 Yes. 511 00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:26.339 Yeah. 512 00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:29.039 I'm just thinking if we'd been rattling down Terry Nation Street 513 00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:32.099 again in a brass bath chair, you probably wouldn't have copped the 514 00:24:32.099 --> 00:24:32.880 same. 515 00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:38.579 No, to the point when the, you know, how long is it between female 516 00:24:38.579 --> 00:24:40.500 writers after this? 517 00:24:40.619 --> 00:24:43.920 Yeah, but I mean, I think that that was terrible. 518 00:24:43.980 --> 00:24:46.980 And I don't think that she's to blame for the story's flaws. 519 00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:50.160 I think there are some people struggling with accents. 520 00:24:50.220 --> 00:24:52.200 I'm seriously still not seeing the flaw. 521 00:24:52.259 --> 00:24:55.559 No, no, like I think it's I think it's super enjoyable. 522 00:24:55.619 --> 00:24:57.660 I think it is really Trad. 523 00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:00.000 And I think there's a great deal of atmosphere in the 1st 524 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:00.480 episode. 525 00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:04.019 And, you know, I worry about the direction. 526 00:25:04.140 --> 00:25:07.079 There are some good moments in it, but it is a bit flat. 527 00:25:07.140 --> 00:25:09.839 It is, but also, I mean, I see both sides. 528 00:25:09.900 --> 00:25:13.380 I mean, I wasn't aware that she'd been criticised in those terms 529 00:25:13.380 --> 00:25:17.160 and that's reprehensible, but also the fact is I don't think she 530 00:25:17.160 --> 00:25:20.220 did do a particularly good job, but that's okay because a lot of 531 00:25:20.220 --> 00:25:21.779 people haven't done a particularly good job. 532 00:25:21.839 --> 00:25:24.900 She comes back the 2nd time and she does a much better job in the 533 00:25:24.900 --> 00:25:26.640 Santaran 2 passer for next year. 534 00:25:26.700 --> 00:25:30.960 So it's the terms of the criticism, if she was criticised in 535 00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:32.160 misogynistic ways. 536 00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:33.359 And they thought, that's just unforgivable. 537 00:25:33.420 --> 00:25:36.720 I think Russell must have thought it was successful to give her 538 00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:39.299 the same story the following year. 539 00:25:39.359 --> 00:25:40.619 He loved it. 540 00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:43.079 But I don't think there's anyone very far from this broadcast who 541 00:25:43.079 --> 00:25:48.480 doesn't appreciate a good musical. indeed at this table. 542 00:25:48.599 --> 00:25:55.259 No, originally in the earlier drafts, it was not musical theatre. 543 00:25:55.259 --> 00:26:01.259 The original draft of the script involved it being set in jazz 544 00:26:01.259 --> 00:26:03.599 clubs, prohibition. 545 00:26:06.660 --> 00:26:09.420 And Laslow is in the mob. 546 00:26:09.480 --> 00:26:12.660 No, it would have been really interesting, maybe a bit too dark. 547 00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:18.480 And and Russell Russell wanted the musical theatre, so it morphed 548 00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:18.900 into all that. 549 00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:21.900 It's also setting something in speakeas and things like that. 550 00:26:21.960 --> 00:26:24.660 It's going to all your usual touch points rather than, you know 551 00:26:24.660 --> 00:26:25.440 trying something. 552 00:26:25.500 --> 00:26:27.180 It would have actually, yeah, it would have looked a little 553 00:26:27.180 --> 00:26:30.299 flatter in those spectacles of the stage of the angels. 554 00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:31.200 I love that so much. 555 00:26:31.259 --> 00:26:33.119 And I love Mary Gold's take on it. 556 00:26:33.180 --> 00:26:35.579 You can tell, yes, he Murray doesn't mind a bit of musical theatre 557 00:26:35.579 --> 00:26:39.420 himself because he's really got all the bangs and whistles of it's 558 00:26:39.420 --> 00:26:42.720 just between Rhapsody and Blue, which Gershwin George wrote in 3 559 00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:45.660 weeks because he'd forgotten he had to premiere 24. 560 00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:48.180 I think you're kind of seeing why I love this so much. 561 00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:54.420 But it taps into the Zeitgeist and the joyousness of popular music 562 00:26:54.420 --> 00:26:57.720 at that time and the ardour and the hardship that was behind it. 563 00:26:57.779 --> 00:27:00.660 Gershwin himself was 11, you know, wasn't going to be trained. 564 00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:01.980 So I'm going to segue. 565 00:27:02.039 --> 00:27:07.380 Um, and his family bought him a lovely 2nd hand upright and he, and 566 00:27:07.380 --> 00:27:09.900 he just started writing and composing away and he was, you know 567 00:27:09.900 --> 00:27:12.779 already a genius and his and his brother, of course, he died at 38 568 00:27:12.779 --> 00:27:17.039 and his brother was, um, Feinstein called him his lovely wife, Ira 569 00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:19.019 took over. 570 00:27:19.079 --> 00:27:23.039 But there's that sense that Peter was touching on that there is so 571 00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:24.299 much to work against. 572 00:27:24.359 --> 00:27:28.500 And you might also say that was Helen Rainer's position here. 573 00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:32.700 And also if Russell wasn't available and she wasn't getting much 574 00:27:32.700 --> 00:27:33.119 tips. 575 00:27:33.180 --> 00:27:35.819 I do remember Helen saying something along the lines of I was 576 00:27:35.819 --> 00:27:39.240 given 3 ideas and I had to get this script out and there wasn't 577 00:27:39.240 --> 00:27:40.680 really much feedback at the time. 578 00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:41.759 So yes, I think you're right. 579 00:27:41.819 --> 00:27:44.880 Russell was ill or perhaps just really busy on other staff and 580 00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:45.960 getting tortured up. 581 00:27:46.079 --> 00:27:49.500 But this is kind of the ardour and the pressure that she was 582 00:27:49.500 --> 00:27:50.460 under. 583 00:27:50.519 --> 00:27:55.619 I think really reflects well in the sense of this is a story of 584 00:27:55.619 --> 00:27:59.579 great hopelessness and just ignoring that and standing up. 585 00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:02.220 Your heart might break, but the show must go on. 586 00:28:02.279 --> 00:28:03.000 That's it. 587 00:28:03.059 --> 00:28:05.339 Where's the where's the tule? 588 00:28:05.819 --> 00:28:10.259 You see, so I think it was a good idea, not sort of go with, you 589 00:28:10.259 --> 00:28:12.720 know, the mob or a speakeasy or whatever, you know, something 590 00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:17.160 which was like too indicative of the era and say, okay, let's go 591 00:28:17.160 --> 00:28:18.119 for a theatre instead. 592 00:28:18.180 --> 00:28:18.900 That's a good idea. 593 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:20.039 I'm on board with that. 594 00:28:20.099 --> 00:28:24.000 But then if you've got 3 big locations in the story, if you've got 595 00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:25.980 the Empire State Building, you've got Hooville, you've got the 596 00:28:25.980 --> 00:28:28.619 theatre, they need to be tied together a little bit better than 597 00:28:28.619 --> 00:28:28.980 they were. 598 00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:30.539 The theatre is just a backdrop. 599 00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:33.779 It's just, yeah, they go there and some things happen. 600 00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:36.000 It doesn't feel like it's connected properly. 601 00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:37.740 Got a sewer, haven't you? 602 00:28:39.180 --> 00:28:40.740 That's it. 603 00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:44.460 That is really kind of the scaffolding showing, isn't it? 604 00:28:44.519 --> 00:28:46.859 The fact that there's the sewer in the... 605 00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:48.480 Doctor Who, you have to pursue her. 606 00:28:49.140 --> 00:28:53.519 Poor Victoria was always getting shunted down one, wasn't she? 607 00:28:53.579 --> 00:28:55.200 It is a very nice sewer. 608 00:28:55.259 --> 00:28:59.039 I have to say, it's a very, very impressive set. 609 00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:02.099 And the Adulthood, do you hear the words? 610 00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:03.180 It was a very nice story. 611 00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:05.039 We've got many to choose from. 612 00:29:05.099 --> 00:29:09.000 Or maybe in the construction of the Victorian Embankment. 613 00:29:09.059 --> 00:29:12.299 But yeah, I just, I don't think it hangs together that well, that 614 00:29:12.299 --> 00:29:14.460 you get the impression that people are just going from place to 615 00:29:14.460 --> 00:29:16.380 place because they are just going from place to place. 616 00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:18.359 What's the point of going to the theatre? 617 00:29:18.420 --> 00:29:19.200 There really is none. 618 00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:19.980 No. 619 00:29:20.039 --> 00:29:24.420 And I guess thematically it's tied in because of her precarity and 620 00:29:24.420 --> 00:29:30.420 the fact that even though she's a sort of a big star, she is, you 621 00:29:30.420 --> 00:29:32.940 know, suffering under capitalism as much as anyone else. 622 00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:35.339 But that's probably not quite enough. 623 00:29:35.400 --> 00:29:40.799 And that seems to be from Helen Rayner, that whole, the Daleks's 624 00:29:40.799 --> 00:29:42.119 agents of capitalism. 625 00:29:42.180 --> 00:29:45.420 I think is seems to come just directly from her. 626 00:29:45.420 --> 00:29:48.000 And so I think that's super interesting. 627 00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:51.720 And I do think Hooverville and the Empire State Building are 628 00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:53.400 they're well integrated. 629 00:29:53.460 --> 00:29:57.480 I think the theatre would feel more of a piece if like you touched 630 00:29:57.480 --> 00:30:00.059 on a little bit earlier, Nathan, it was shot a little bit better. 631 00:30:00.119 --> 00:30:02.279 Everything feels a little bit separate. 632 00:30:02.339 --> 00:30:05.039 So when you get the big Busby Berkeley kind of number and 633 00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:06.660 everything, It doesn't quite come off. 634 00:30:06.720 --> 00:30:09.900 And so it feels like anytime you're at the theatre, it's the least 635 00:30:09.900 --> 00:30:10.980 successful part of the story. 636 00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:14.700 Certainly that scene where Martha tries to make her way across the 637 00:30:14.700 --> 00:30:16.920 stage doesn't quite work. 638 00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:19.140 Although it is standard Broadway stick. 639 00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:22.019 I wonder if it's, I wonder if it's sidelined because the women's 640 00:30:22.019 --> 00:30:23.579 roles themselves are sidelined. 641 00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:25.079 I wonder if there's a bit of meta happening there. 642 00:30:25.140 --> 00:30:31.740 So we have some big male guest stars, don't we, in Hugh Quashi and 643 00:30:31.740 --> 00:30:32.940 Andrew Garfield. 644 00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:35.640 It's one of them very well known at the time. one of them, of 645 00:30:35.640 --> 00:30:36.539 course, about to become well known. 646 00:30:36.599 --> 00:30:39.660 Yeah, so Andrew Garfield is not well known at this point. 647 00:30:39.720 --> 00:30:41.700 He's about to become Spider-Man. 648 00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:46.440 Well, not quite, but he was about to do boy A, which was his big 649 00:30:46.440 --> 00:30:50.039 break, which was, I can't remember the exact details, but was 650 00:30:50.039 --> 00:30:55.500 dramatisation of a child who'd killed another child and gone to 651 00:30:55.500 --> 00:30:58.859 prison and then had come out as an adult and had to live with the 652 00:30:58.859 --> 00:31:00.180 consequences of his action. 653 00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:03.480 So it was based on the Jamie Boulger case. 654 00:31:03.539 --> 00:31:06.660 And that was where his star really soared. 655 00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:08.099 He gave him tremendous performance. 656 00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:13.079 And he speaks with an English accent normally or he does both 657 00:31:13.079 --> 00:31:13.740 doesn't he? 658 00:31:13.799 --> 00:31:14.640 He grew up in Britain. 659 00:31:14.700 --> 00:31:16.920 Yeah, I think he did grow up in Britain. 660 00:31:16.980 --> 00:31:21.720 Yeah, he was born in California, I believe, and but he'd spent his 661 00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:25.500 entire childhood in the UK. 662 00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:29.339 Is this an episode where Americans are embarrassed by the American 663 00:31:29.339 --> 00:31:29.819 accents? 664 00:31:30.059 --> 00:31:32.160 I should ask an American. 665 00:31:32.220 --> 00:31:32.640 We should. 666 00:31:32.700 --> 00:31:34.380 I don't know. embarrassed by them. 667 00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:36.539 I think Hugh Korsi does a pretty good job. 668 00:31:36.599 --> 00:31:41.640 And certainly he is very charismatic and extremely good, I think. 669 00:31:41.700 --> 00:31:44.339 Yeah, I mean, there's no touch of the Ike Clanton. 670 00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:51.059 So he's Captain Panaka in Star Wars, the Phantom Menace. 671 00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:51.539 Really? 672 00:31:51.539 --> 00:31:52.799 Yeah. 673 00:31:52.859 --> 00:31:57.000 And he's the detective inspector in the last word part two, a 674 00:31:57.000 --> 00:31:58.259 wonderful press gang episode. 675 00:31:58.980 --> 00:32:01.259 So just over a Griffin in Holby City, which is where most people 676 00:32:01.259 --> 00:32:02.279 would have known him from. 677 00:32:02.339 --> 00:32:06.359 So for the listener who's not watching this at home, this he's the 678 00:32:06.359 --> 00:32:08.039 fellow who's in charge of his. 679 00:32:08.099 --> 00:32:08.759 He the alpha man. 680 00:32:08.819 --> 00:32:10.259 Yeah, so he's called Solomon. 681 00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:14.400 And in fact, we see him breaking a loaf of bread in half. 682 00:32:14.519 --> 00:32:16.200 Not at all subtle, yes. 683 00:32:16.259 --> 00:32:16.680 Yes. 684 00:32:16.740 --> 00:32:18.240 Well, at least it's not a baby, right? 685 00:32:18.299 --> 00:32:20.400 He's breaking... 686 00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:24.480 He is breaking a loaf of bread in half and giving it the 2... 687 00:32:24.539 --> 00:32:25.259 Buttered both sides. 688 00:32:25.319 --> 00:32:26.220 Which one do you drop? 689 00:32:26.279 --> 00:32:27.839 And he's wonderful. 690 00:32:27.900 --> 00:32:29.160 I think he is really great. 691 00:32:29.220 --> 00:32:33.299 And we'll talk more about him next week where he gets his really 692 00:32:33.299 --> 00:32:34.680 big hero moment. 693 00:32:34.740 --> 00:32:36.359 But he's terrifically good. 694 00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:38.640 I think Andrew Garfield pretty good. 695 00:32:38.700 --> 00:32:40.559 Garfield plays Frank, doesn't he? 696 00:32:40.619 --> 00:32:41.039 Yeah, yeah. 697 00:32:41.099 --> 00:32:42.420 Yeah, I mean, Frank's nothing wrong. 698 00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:43.559 He doesn't really get anything to do. 699 00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:47.220 You know, he just trails around after the doctor... 700 00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:48.180 Escapes, good. 701 00:32:48.240 --> 00:32:51.539 However, I do remember saying after this episode went out when my 702 00:32:51.539 --> 00:32:55.920 friend Paul, and I were talking about it, and I said, oh, I think 703 00:32:55.920 --> 00:32:59.579 Frank in Daleksy Manhattan, it was really cute, and I think, you 704 00:32:59.579 --> 00:33:01.799 know, he's going to go places, and Paul said, what? 705 00:33:01.859 --> 00:33:02.220 him? 706 00:33:02.279 --> 00:33:03.240 He'll amount to nothing. 707 00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:05.880 Nothing. 708 00:33:14.940 --> 00:33:18.839 Do you know, we haven't mentioned the Daleks doing things yet. 709 00:33:18.900 --> 00:33:22.140 So what do we think of their pig slaves? 710 00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:25.799 I'm kind of loving that the Daleks are very scroovian and very 711 00:33:25.799 --> 00:33:29.039 heart-molisk in that they really are just 4 of them and they're 712 00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:29.460 stuck. 713 00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:32.519 They can't really leave their little tiny walled, glittering 714 00:33:32.519 --> 00:33:32.700 city. 715 00:33:32.759 --> 00:33:36.660 It is the 1st time and Xander does point this out. 716 00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:40.140 This is the 1st time where the Daleks are just normal, where we 717 00:33:40.140 --> 00:33:42.240 start with Daleks in existence. 718 00:33:42.299 --> 00:33:46.740 We know that they're there and they're not in here for like a 719 00:33:46.740 --> 00:33:51.000 giant format changing moment, like in their 1st appearance and 720 00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:52.440 they're not here for a season finale. 721 00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:54.000 They're cornered and timid. 722 00:33:54.059 --> 00:33:55.500 Yeah, they've like, yes. 723 00:33:55.559 --> 00:33:57.779 It is just business of the week for the Daleks. 724 00:33:57.839 --> 00:34:00.240 And I think some people are disappointed by that. 725 00:34:00.299 --> 00:34:03.180 They're not giant agents of chaos. 726 00:34:03.240 --> 00:34:05.819 I don't understand how you can be disappointed by that because I 727 00:34:05.819 --> 00:34:08.159 think, you know, I think I've been a bit more down on this episode 728 00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:12.119 than the rest of you, but I think the Daleks are the best they 729 00:34:12.119 --> 00:34:14.519 have ever been in this story. 730 00:34:14.579 --> 00:34:16.800 They're given proper characters and motivations. 731 00:34:16.860 --> 00:34:18.719 Gorgeous valve radios. 732 00:34:18.780 --> 00:34:20.460 Huge things. 733 00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:23.579 They're sort of intradalek conversations are all interesting. 734 00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:26.460 They're given sort of verbal ticks and things. 735 00:34:26.519 --> 00:34:31.320 I think they sound, and especially, you know, the rest of the 736 00:34:31.320 --> 00:34:35.219 episode, I don't know about how well it's shot, but the Daleks are 737 00:34:35.219 --> 00:34:35.880 shot brilliantly. 738 00:34:35.940 --> 00:34:41.099 I think that there is this sort of idea, and I think it's down to 739 00:34:41.099 --> 00:34:45.360 Terry Nation's kind of laziness, that Daleks are sort of boring 740 00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:48.420 conversationalists, and we need Davros along in order to have 741 00:34:48.420 --> 00:34:50.340 someone saying interesting things. 742 00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:52.500 They weren't Doll under Whittaker, though. 743 00:34:52.619 --> 00:34:53.519 No, absolutely. 744 00:34:53.579 --> 00:34:54.480 Exactly. 745 00:34:54.539 --> 00:34:58.739 And this is back to a real Whittakerrian conception of the Daleks 746 00:34:58.739 --> 00:35:00.780 but I think we have to talk about that next week. 747 00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:04.980 This is the Daleks as they were in the 60s, I think. 748 00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:08.039 And they're given proper status when they're on the screen. 749 00:35:08.039 --> 00:35:09.059 The camera loves them. 750 00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:12.059 They're big in the shot and stuff like that. 751 00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:12.900 They're glamorous. 752 00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:13.199 Yeah. 753 00:35:13.260 --> 00:35:15.480 They're filmed from below quite a lot. 754 00:35:15.539 --> 00:35:19.139 Yeah, no, they're made they're made to seem powerful. 755 00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:21.659 And every time they enter a scene, they're given a proper 756 00:35:21.659 --> 00:35:22.139 entrance. 757 00:35:22.199 --> 00:35:24.900 And also a lot of it's down to Nick Briggs. 758 00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:27.179 I mean, you've got Nick Briggs providing the voices. 759 00:35:27.239 --> 00:35:30.059 And he knows how to do Daleks, different registers, different 760 00:35:30.059 --> 00:35:31.260 tones. 761 00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:33.659 You never in any doubt over which Dalek's speaking. 762 00:35:33.719 --> 00:35:36.119 Well, we'll talk about that next week. 763 00:35:36.179 --> 00:35:38.880 He is incredibly good, isn't he? 764 00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:40.920 Because he does the Peter Hawkins voice. 765 00:35:40.980 --> 00:35:46.079 He does the David Graham voice, but he makes those voices 766 00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:49.739 something that can say interesting dialogue. 767 00:35:49.800 --> 00:35:55.079 And Dalek Sec, in that 1st episode, where he's speculating about 768 00:35:55.079 --> 00:35:59.340 humanity and New York and things, is a Dalek who is thinking 769 00:35:59.340 --> 00:36:01.800 deeply about something. 770 00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:03.420 And I think that that's really interesting. 771 00:36:03.480 --> 00:36:08.340 I think the idea that that you have this cult of scaro, that is 772 00:36:08.340 --> 00:36:13.440 rethinking what it means to be a dalek, that that's properly 773 00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:15.300 interesting and something that we haven't seen before. 774 00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:18.480 And you get, as well, I think it's Dalek, they. 775 00:36:18.539 --> 00:36:21.480 I'm not sure which one, which comes up in Lyft and talks to Mr 776 00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:24.119 Diagoras, and they stand there for a scene looking out over in New 777 00:36:24.119 --> 00:36:27.420 York and talking about things, and you think, well, great. let's 778 00:36:27.420 --> 00:36:30.059 have more of this It is pretty good, isn't it? 779 00:36:30.119 --> 00:36:34.019 And Nicholas Briggs can't get enough credit for that because he 780 00:36:34.019 --> 00:36:38.820 takes those voices, which have just so often said seek, locate 781 00:36:38.820 --> 00:36:42.059 exterminate, and nothing more interesting than that and does a 782 00:36:42.059 --> 00:36:43.019 proper acting performance. 783 00:36:43.139 --> 00:36:46.860 And we saw that right 2 years ago with Dalek and he's been doing 784 00:36:46.860 --> 00:36:47.519 it ever since. 785 00:36:47.579 --> 00:36:50.760 But he also remembers that whatever a Dalek sounds like, it's 786 00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:51.719 always got to be angry. 787 00:36:51.900 --> 00:36:54.000 It delivers its lines angrily all the time. 788 00:37:00.059 --> 00:37:03.000 We haven't talked much about Diagras. 789 00:37:03.059 --> 00:37:07.380 And he's a performance that I'm not completely on board with, and 790 00:37:07.380 --> 00:37:08.880 I'm not sure with that at all. 791 00:37:08.940 --> 00:37:11.820 See, I'm with you as well, but it's also probably the most truest 792 00:37:11.820 --> 00:37:15.539 of the New York play pieces because that is the flat tone and that 793 00:37:15.539 --> 00:37:16.500 is kind of how we talk. 794 00:37:16.500 --> 00:37:17.880 And, you know, you're wanting up and down. 795 00:37:17.940 --> 00:37:19.199 You go Midwest. 796 00:37:19.260 --> 00:37:20.760 This is actually what we guys are like. 797 00:37:20.820 --> 00:37:21.480 What's your problem? 798 00:37:21.539 --> 00:37:26.519 He, unlike a lot of the other people in the episode is in America 799 00:37:26.519 --> 00:37:26.820 right? 800 00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:29.820 I do get a sense of discomfiture in the performance. 801 00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:34.980 And usually we can then reestablish that into the narrative and go 802 00:37:34.980 --> 00:37:36.059 oh, well, you know, there's a lot coming. 803 00:37:36.119 --> 00:37:37.800 It's called the Caroline Ford principle. 804 00:37:39.179 --> 00:37:41.579 No, I'm really not kidding. 805 00:37:41.639 --> 00:37:43.019 Is he slightly telepathic? 806 00:37:43.500 --> 00:37:47.760 Yes, and was going to be an Avengers girl and everything. just 807 00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:48.179 didn't happen. 808 00:37:48.599 --> 00:37:50.460 Very pissed off. 809 00:37:50.519 --> 00:37:53.519 But I get the sense that he doesn't really know what's going on. 810 00:37:53.579 --> 00:37:55.920 But yes, we can matter that because that is how the character 811 00:37:55.920 --> 00:37:56.519 would feel. 812 00:37:56.579 --> 00:37:58.619 And of course, he's really scared. 813 00:37:58.679 --> 00:38:01.139 And of course he's totally out of his depth. 814 00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:04.860 He does have one or 2 terrible scenes in that 1st episode with 815 00:38:04.860 --> 00:38:09.000 kind of workman, you know, kind of expostulating workman and stuff 816 00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:10.199 where he's bullying them. 817 00:38:10.260 --> 00:38:13.320 And I don't think the workmen are necessarily all that good. 818 00:38:13.380 --> 00:38:16.739 So you know, workman number one was in Dalek. 819 00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:17.519 Oh was he? 820 00:38:17.579 --> 00:38:22.500 Yeah, he was the commander of Mr. Van Staten's guards. 821 00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:27.960 He's not had a good run. temporal displacement going on there. 822 00:38:28.260 --> 00:38:31.980 Yeah, I don't really have a problem with his scenes as Mr 823 00:38:31.980 --> 00:38:32.519 Diagris. 824 00:38:32.579 --> 00:38:34.380 He's not the best in the world, but then I don't think the 825 00:38:34.380 --> 00:38:35.880 character's given all that much to work with. 826 00:38:35.940 --> 00:38:39.239 It's when what happens at the end of the episode where you get the 827 00:38:39.239 --> 00:38:43.619 very uncomfortable marriage between that actor, that character. 828 00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:45.239 The spectacular cloaca. 829 00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:49.260 Yeah, I think that's where it all goes off Quacker of Doom. 830 00:38:49.320 --> 00:38:52.920 Oh, that horrible scene where he's sort of down there and, you 831 00:38:52.920 --> 00:38:55.199 know, shot from beneath his James pointed out. 832 00:38:55.260 --> 00:38:59.159 Well, we we met Mark Strickson and Mark Strickson has been sort of 833 00:38:59.159 --> 00:39:05.159 a stuntman and he gave us tips on how to be menaced and how to be 834 00:39:05.159 --> 00:39:09.539 held onto and how to struggle against someone who's who's holding 835 00:39:09.539 --> 00:39:10.139 onto you. 836 00:39:10.199 --> 00:39:14.400 And that was all I could think about in that scene where he's he's 837 00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:17.039 such an actor being held onto by pig slaves. 838 00:39:17.099 --> 00:39:20.340 It's really, it's really not very convincing. 839 00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:25.920 And then, yes, the giant dalek, Clo Acre, that engulfs him is... 840 00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:28.800 I wonder if Russell was just commenting on the colour free base. 841 00:39:29.820 --> 00:39:30.780 I think. 842 00:39:30.840 --> 00:39:33.420 It is a funny scene. 843 00:39:33.480 --> 00:39:36.239 I mean, it gives it gives us new things for the Daleks to do, and 844 00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:41.280 it gives us some a CG Dalek mutant rather than the sort of puppet 845 00:39:41.280 --> 00:39:44.099 that we had in the in Dalek itself. 846 00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:48.059 It sort of goes back to, I think, one of the reasons these 847 00:39:48.059 --> 00:39:51.059 episodes aren't so successful is that they're the 1st time on 848 00:39:51.059 --> 00:39:52.500 paper, they sound amazing. 849 00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:56.219 They fail to fly, and I think it's the 1st time New Doc 2 is 850 00:39:56.219 --> 00:39:58.619 unintentionally camp in many ways. 851 00:39:58.679 --> 00:40:02.039 It sets out to be funny previously, and it may have had moments 852 00:40:02.039 --> 00:40:05.940 which were camp, but here, things don't fly, and so they become 853 00:40:05.940 --> 00:40:09.599 camp, and one of those things is Dalek Sec. 854 00:40:09.659 --> 00:40:12.119 So you've got Dalek Sec, who wants to become a human. 855 00:40:12.179 --> 00:40:15.719 He then reaches out, grabs Mr. Diagoras, pulls him into the casing 856 00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:19.800 spends about 5 minutes, sort of rattling and sort of groaning 857 00:40:19.800 --> 00:40:23.219 about inside there, and then releases this creature with Mr 858 00:40:23.219 --> 00:40:27.000 Diagoras's pinstripe suit and dalek sex head on top. 859 00:40:27.059 --> 00:40:29.460 I actually think that that is spectacular. 860 00:40:29.519 --> 00:40:34.019 And I don't think it comes off, but the fact that Dalek Sec is 861 00:40:34.019 --> 00:40:37.260 wearing a lovely suit for the 2nd episode and for that final scene 862 00:40:37.260 --> 00:40:37.980 is marvellous. 863 00:40:38.039 --> 00:40:41.280 It's a bit Scaroth, last of the check. 864 00:40:41.340 --> 00:40:41.699 Yeah, yeah. 865 00:40:41.760 --> 00:40:43.739 Look at the broad grins on your faces. 866 00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:46.500 You're liking it because it's so camp and I don't think it was 867 00:40:46.500 --> 00:40:47.039 meant to be. 868 00:40:47.639 --> 00:40:49.559 I think it absolutely was meant to be. 869 00:40:49.619 --> 00:40:50.820 Of course it was. 870 00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:53.099 I think they also, they blinked. 871 00:40:53.159 --> 00:40:58.199 And that's why you end up and possibly this is coloured like 872 00:40:58.199 --> 00:40:59.400 people's opinion of it. 873 00:40:59.460 --> 00:41:01.800 They went, oh, we're not so sure about this. 874 00:41:01.860 --> 00:41:03.960 And so they spoilt it. 875 00:41:04.019 --> 00:41:06.360 Let's take off the radio time. tentacles. 876 00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:08.280 Oh, yeah, that's crazy, isn't it? 877 00:41:08.340 --> 00:41:12.360 So Dalek Sec, the mutant, is on the front cover of the radio times 878 00:41:12.360 --> 00:41:13.079 that week. 879 00:41:13.139 --> 00:41:14.820 A giant close-up of his face. 880 00:41:14.880 --> 00:41:18.179 Yeah, and so they completely spoil that cliffhanger. 881 00:41:18.239 --> 00:41:20.760 Well, actually, it was on the radio times cover for the 2nd 882 00:41:20.760 --> 00:41:20.940 episode. 883 00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:21.840 Oh, okay. 884 00:41:21.900 --> 00:41:22.559 Yeah. 885 00:41:22.619 --> 00:41:23.519 But why? 886 00:41:23.940 --> 00:41:28.619 Why a close-up of something that just looks like a CGI blob on the 887 00:41:28.619 --> 00:41:29.340 cover of a magazine? 888 00:41:29.400 --> 00:41:30.179 With Willies on it. 889 00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:30.840 Exactly. 890 00:41:30.900 --> 00:41:33.239 And so that takes you back into the episode where you think, why 891 00:41:33.239 --> 00:41:33.780 did you do this? 892 00:41:33.840 --> 00:41:35.940 I think we've answered our own question. 893 00:41:36.239 --> 00:41:40.800 It's incredibly camp. don't believe for a 2nd that they were 894 00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:41.519 unaware of that. 895 00:41:41.639 --> 00:41:44.519 I don't think Russell's solely a fan of survivors and nothing 896 00:41:44.519 --> 00:41:44.760 else. 897 00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:47.820 I don't think he's ever said no to a show tune. 898 00:41:47.880 --> 00:41:48.780 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 899 00:41:48.840 --> 00:41:53.519 I really think that this is very classic Doctor Who. and that 900 00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:56.159 image of it is Scaroff, isn't it? 901 00:41:56.219 --> 00:41:58.139 It's like a squidhead in a lovely suit. 902 00:41:58.199 --> 00:42:01.800 It's funny we say that because I think it is nodding to the greats 903 00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:02.340 of the past. 904 00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:07.320 And one of them, one of them is Whittaker's exchanges and the 905 00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:08.880 other is Douglas Adams. 906 00:42:08.940 --> 00:42:12.360 And there's moments of just the mélange, if you like throw it all 907 00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:16.980 into the Dalek front loader and see what comes out, which is what 908 00:42:16.980 --> 00:42:18.480 Dalek Sec does. 909 00:42:18.539 --> 00:42:18.780 Yes. 910 00:42:18.840 --> 00:42:21.179 Covered in willies. 911 00:42:21.239 --> 00:42:22.739 How did that work out? 912 00:42:50.039 --> 00:42:52.019 Well, do we start it? 913 00:42:52.079 --> 00:42:54.719 Looks like Mr. Diagoras is in need of some fairly urgent 914 00:42:54.719 --> 00:42:58.380 assistance, so we're off to find him some spirit gum, and we'll be 915 00:42:58.380 --> 00:43:02.280 back next week in time to witness the evolution of the Daleks. 916 00:43:02.340 --> 00:43:05.639 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts 917 00:43:05.639 --> 00:43:08.579 and you can keep up with us at flightsthroughentirety.com, flights 918 00:43:08.579 --> 00:43:12.059 through entirety on Facebook, and at FTE podcast on Twitter. 919 00:43:12.119 --> 00:43:15.960 You can also find our series 11 flashcast, Jody interterra at Jody 920 00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:20.219 interterra.com and at Jody interterra on Twitter at our James Bond 921 00:43:20.219 --> 00:43:24.179 commentary podcast, Bondfinger at bondfinger.com at bondfinger on 922 00:43:24.179 --> 00:43:26.400 Facebook and at bondfingercast on Twitter. 923 00:43:26.460 --> 00:43:30.360 Until next time, remember, your heart might break, but the show 924 00:43:30.360 --> 00:43:30.840 goes on. 925 00:43:30.900 --> 00:43:32.280 So we'll see you next week. 926 00:43:32.340 --> 00:43:34.380 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 927 00:43:34.440 --> 00:43:35.039 Goodbye. 928 00:43:35.039 --> 00:43:35.639 Good night. 929 00:43:35.699 --> 00:43:36.300 Good then. 930 00:43:39.420 --> 00:43:42.780 That was Flight 3 Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter 931 00:43:42.780 --> 00:43:44.820 Griffiths, James Selwood, and Richard Stone. 932 00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:47.940 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings performance by Jane 933 00:43:47.940 --> 00:43:48.719 Orberg. 934 00:43:48.840 --> 00:43:52.800 This episode, the Big Busby Berkeley number, was recorded on the 935 00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:56.039 11th of August 2019 and released on the 6th of October. 936 00:43:59.099 --> 00:44:03.059 Fans of Musical Theatre will enjoy our upcoming online operetta. 937 00:44:03.119 --> 00:44:06.780 All these Huguenots look the same to me, a sung-through version of 938 00:44:06.780 --> 00:44:10.679 the massacre, with music by Steven Sondheim and lyrics by Eric 939 00:44:10.679 --> 00:44:11.460 Sayward. 940 00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:16.500 But also, it's touched on Campley because the Daleks bitch at each 941 00:44:16.500 --> 00:44:17.400 other constantly. 942 00:44:17.460 --> 00:44:20.039 They're always arguing and say, you know, it's capped off 943 00:44:20.039 --> 00:44:24.719 obviously by the wonderful scene where the Daleks look around them 944 00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:27.719 to make sure no one's listening before they start bitching. 945 00:44:27.780 --> 00:44:29.219 Isn't that part 2? 946 00:44:29.340 --> 00:44:30.599 We should probably talk about that next week. 947 00:44:30.659 --> 00:44:31.019 Oh, is it? 948 00:44:31.019 --> 00:44:34.320 Yeah, let's I would actually quite like to end this episode on the 949 00:44:34.320 --> 00:44:38.400 discussion of Willy's just to be... 950 00:44:38.460 --> 00:44:41.400 The set dance look like the Grace Brothers are you being served 951 00:44:41.400 --> 00:44:42.539 shop, doesn't it? 952 00:44:42.599 --> 00:44:44.820 So when the Daleks are all gathering gathering around the 953 00:44:44.820 --> 00:44:46.440 haberdashery to have a moan. 954 00:44:46.500 --> 00:44:48.239 Get that joke next week. 955 00:44:50.219 --> 00:44:51.480 First flop perfumer. 956 00:44:51.539 --> 00:44:53.159 We do too. 957 00:44:53.159 --> 00:44:57.599 And we didn't talk at all about Mr. Diagoras. like his name and 958 00:44:57.599 --> 00:44:58.800 that, but I mean, that's nice. 959 00:44:58.980 --> 00:44:59.639 Can we do that next week? 960 00:44:59.699 --> 00:45:00.659 Because I really do want to hear that. 961 00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:06.300 Also, I mean, like, Tallula is named after... 962 00:45:06.360 --> 00:45:07.380 We get there when we do names. 963 00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:09.599 Talula is named after... 964 00:45:09.960 --> 00:45:10.559 To Lulu. 965 00:45:10.559 --> 00:45:11.400 Okay. 966 00:45:11.460 --> 00:45:12.420 Jodie Foster's. 967 00:45:12.480 --> 00:45:13.380 Sorry, Jane Foster. 968 00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:15.780 Jodie Foster's character in Bugsy Mine. 969 00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:16.619 Oh, she is too. 970 00:45:16.679 --> 00:45:17.639 Oh, see, that's clever. 971 00:45:17.699 --> 00:45:18.840 Well, let's do that next week. 972 00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:19.679 Yeah. 973 00:45:19.739 --> 00:45:22.199 I think we talk more about that because there's not that much to 974 00:45:22.199 --> 00:45:22.920 talk about next week. 975 00:45:23.579 --> 00:45:28.739 Okay, so let's let's just do the let's do the outro. 976 00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:30.480 So like so many people. 977 00:45:33.539 --> 00:45:34.679 All right, here goes. 978 00:45:34.739 --> 00:45:37.500 You've got a nice young man tied up upstairs. 979 00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:38.579 Devil and me. 980 00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:39.360 Yeah, okay. 981 00:45:39.420 --> 00:45:40.619 Pussy. 982 00:45:40.739 --> 00:45:41.940 Is that next week or this week? 983 00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:42.599 Is it? 984 00:45:42.659 --> 00:45:43.800 I thought it was episode one. 985 00:45:43.860 --> 00:45:46.860 Well, where's the big Buzz Berkeley number with Martha? 986 00:45:46.920 --> 00:45:48.539 Is that this week or? 987 00:45:48.539 --> 00:45:49.440 No, that's episode one. 988 00:45:49.500 --> 00:45:52.619 Yeah, because like it's the whole Laslow thing. 989 00:45:52.679 --> 00:45:57.000 What draws them down into the sewers is her seeing Laszlo. and she 990 00:45:57.000 --> 00:46:00.059 chases after him. and they're getting into the series. 991 00:46:00.119 --> 00:46:00.780 That's episode one. 992 00:46:00.840 --> 00:46:01.679 Okay, all right. 993 00:46:01.739 --> 00:46:03.239 Should we do should we do an outro? 994 00:46:05.340 --> 00:46:09.179 Well, dear listener, it looks like Mr. Diagoras is in fuck.