WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 12:57:14 1 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:39.240 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through 2 00:00:39.240 --> 00:00:39.780 Entirety. 3 00:00:39.840 --> 00:00:43.740 The only Doctor Who podcast unexpectedly dropped from the 4 00:00:43.740 --> 00:00:45.299 television version of this story. 5 00:00:45.420 --> 00:00:47.039 I'm Nathan. 6 00:00:47.159 --> 00:00:48.240 I'm Todd. 7 00:00:48.299 --> 00:00:49.200 And I'm Simon. 8 00:00:49.259 --> 00:00:51.659 Well, the doctors know where to be seen this week. 9 00:00:51.719 --> 00:00:55.859 Instead, it looks like BBC One have decided to screen an unseen 10 00:00:55.859 --> 00:01:00.299 prequel to serve them all my days, a prequel where there's no sign 11 00:01:00.299 --> 00:01:04.079 of Matthew Waterhouse, and where the plot seems strangely familiar 12 00:01:04.079 --> 00:01:04.680 for some reason. 13 00:01:04.739 --> 00:01:09.540 It's everyone's favourite episode 8 of series 3, human nature. 14 00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:24.840 So, this is slightly unusual, isn't it? 15 00:01:24.900 --> 00:01:29.819 We have had Doctor Who stories that have been roughly based on, or 16 00:01:29.819 --> 00:01:32.340 inspired by, sort of, big finish. 17 00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:33.840 I'm thinking Dalek. 18 00:01:33.900 --> 00:01:36.299 Yeah, and Age of steel. 19 00:01:36.299 --> 00:01:37.379 Yeah, right. 20 00:01:37.439 --> 00:01:39.480 They both get sort of credits, I think. 21 00:01:39.540 --> 00:01:43.920 You know, Mark Platt gets a credit in the closing credits because 22 00:01:43.920 --> 00:01:45.180 he's the inspiration for that. 23 00:01:45.239 --> 00:01:50.579 But this is just really a straight kind of retelling of Paul 24 00:01:50.579 --> 00:01:54.180 Cornell's 1995 New Adventures novel. 25 00:01:54.239 --> 00:01:57.959 Yeah, so in one fell swoop, they basically say the new adventures 26 00:01:57.959 --> 00:01:58.439 didn't happen. 27 00:01:58.500 --> 00:02:01.319 Yes, I did want to talk about Canon. 28 00:02:01.379 --> 00:02:03.000 I always do. 29 00:02:03.060 --> 00:02:06.780 I know it's all made up, but at the same time, it effectively is 30 00:02:06.780 --> 00:02:09.599 saying that the new adventures didn't happen by retelling the 31 00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:09.840 story. 32 00:02:09.900 --> 00:02:14.759 But hang on, like, in that novel, it's the 7th doctor in Benny, and 33 00:02:14.759 --> 00:02:17.879 this is not the 7th doctor in Benny. and there's some other 34 00:02:17.879 --> 00:02:18.719 differences too. 35 00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:21.479 Well, the doctors just decided to do it again. 36 00:02:21.539 --> 00:02:22.439 Yes. 37 00:02:22.500 --> 00:02:24.300 Why not, I suppose? 38 00:02:24.419 --> 00:02:27.840 Every time I become human, I end up falling in love with Joan Red 39 00:02:27.900 --> 00:02:29.879 going back to 1913 or 14. 40 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:30.240 Yes. 41 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:33.719 They are set at slightly different times. 42 00:02:33.780 --> 00:02:37.259 Cornell's novel set in sort of April 1914. 43 00:02:37.620 --> 00:02:41.340 So what, five, 6 months after this one. 44 00:02:41.400 --> 00:02:44.879 So perhaps both of them happened or neither, who knows? 45 00:02:44.939 --> 00:02:48.539 I mean, the canon thing is really of no interest to me at all. 46 00:02:48.599 --> 00:02:49.199 No, exactly. 47 00:02:49.259 --> 00:02:55.020 And what Canon really is, is what can you refer to in Doctor Who? 48 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:58.919 And so this is a bit of a big Easter egg for all of us who are 49 00:02:58.919 --> 00:03:01.319 following the new adventures. we all were, weren't we? 50 00:03:01.379 --> 00:03:02.099 Oh, yes. 51 00:03:02.159 --> 00:03:03.900 That was what Doctor Who was at the time. 52 00:03:03.960 --> 00:03:05.580 Yeah, 1995. 53 00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:08.699 We just didn't have anything and we hadn't had anything for a long 54 00:03:08.699 --> 00:03:08.939 time. 55 00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:13.500 And the new adventures, like when I look back on them, I feel a 56 00:03:13.500 --> 00:03:16.139 sort of strange reluctance ever to read any of them again. 57 00:03:16.199 --> 00:03:21.719 But my memory is that there was some extremely good Doctor Who 58 00:03:21.719 --> 00:03:22.080 there. 59 00:03:22.139 --> 00:03:23.039 Yes. 60 00:03:23.099 --> 00:03:25.800 I've actually got quite a nostalgia for them and I've just started 61 00:03:25.800 --> 00:03:30.240 reading them all from the beginning because there are several that 62 00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:32.939 I never read at the time. or some sort of they get halfway 63 00:03:32.939 --> 00:03:33.240 through. 64 00:03:33.300 --> 00:03:37.080 And um, I mean, I'm only up to sort of, what is it? 65 00:03:37.139 --> 00:03:40.259 Andrew Cartnell's one, Warhead, whatever it's called, the 2nd of 66 00:03:40.259 --> 00:03:43.620 the Times crucible ones, of the cat's cradle ones, rather. 67 00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:48.479 And I do have a great nostalgia for them because I, there are some 68 00:03:48.479 --> 00:03:51.479 of them that I think were very, very good, or at least spoke to me 69 00:03:51.479 --> 00:03:54.300 at the time, and human nature was certainly one of them. 70 00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:59.939 And we, as some people in this room may recall, when the series 71 00:03:59.939 --> 00:04:05.400 came back in 2005, my future husband and I were deliberately 72 00:04:05.400 --> 00:04:08.819 avoiding any spoilers at all, any spoilers at all, even we didn't 73 00:04:08.819 --> 00:04:11.159 want to know titles, we didn't want to know who was in them. 74 00:04:11.219 --> 00:04:15.300 We wanted to try and revisit our childhood where it was just the 75 00:04:15.300 --> 00:04:18.180 episode titles in TV week and you went, oh, what's this? 76 00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:19.199 and you watched it. 77 00:04:19.319 --> 00:04:21.959 I remember that because we had to avoid you. 78 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:23.040 Yes, yes. 79 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:24.060 Well we had to avoid you. 80 00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:28.139 And I know there was much consternation at the time that we'd 81 00:04:28.139 --> 00:04:30.360 chosen this route, but however, we all worked through that. 82 00:04:30.420 --> 00:04:37.319 But when at the end of 42, the next time comes on and shot by shot 83 00:04:37.319 --> 00:04:38.639 it suddenly dawned on me. 84 00:04:38.699 --> 00:04:41.160 Oh my god, they're doing human nature. 85 00:04:41.220 --> 00:04:45.779 And I think it was the moment when you see him in academic garb 86 00:04:45.779 --> 00:04:49.319 and and Joan is the sort of the nurse and it really completely 87 00:04:49.319 --> 00:04:50.160 clicks. 88 00:04:50.220 --> 00:04:53.399 They're doing human nature and I was so over the moon because this 89 00:04:53.399 --> 00:04:57.420 one really, that novel really did mark a pinnacle, I think, of the 90 00:04:57.420 --> 00:04:58.259 new adventures books. 91 00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:01.860 I think, you know, 1995 was probably a pretty good year for the 92 00:05:01.860 --> 00:05:04.019 new adventures books sort of generally. 93 00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:07.259 And this one was actually re-released. 94 00:05:07.319 --> 00:05:09.540 You can actually still buy it on the Kindle. 95 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:11.939 It was re-released as part of a thing called the history 96 00:05:11.939 --> 00:05:16.139 collection, which includes some new adventures and some BBC books 97 00:05:16.139 --> 00:05:17.399 and things. 98 00:05:17.399 --> 00:05:21.839 And Paul wrote another sort of intro. 99 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:26.339 And he actually says that he was really fond of this novel because 100 00:05:26.339 --> 00:05:28.620 he thought his previous novel had been bad. 101 00:05:28.680 --> 00:05:31.139 So that was no future. 102 00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:31.920 Yeah that was terrible. 103 00:05:31.980 --> 00:05:35.759 Yeah, no, he said it was just sort of a tiresome collection of, you 104 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:38.339 know, in-joke references to previous stories. 105 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:41.879 And, you know, that was something that the new adventures could 106 00:05:41.879 --> 00:05:45.779 probably get away with better than the new series can because it's 107 00:05:45.779 --> 00:05:47.339 only being read by like 4000 people. 108 00:05:47.399 --> 00:05:49.560 Well, the print run was microscopically small. 109 00:05:49.620 --> 00:05:50.399 Yeah, that's right. 110 00:05:50.459 --> 00:05:50.879 That's right. 111 00:05:50.939 --> 00:05:52.740 With all due respect to our friends, you've written them. 112 00:05:52.800 --> 00:05:53.459 No, no. 113 00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:56.699 And it was being read by people who could pick up all of those 114 00:05:56.699 --> 00:05:58.199 references and things. 115 00:05:58.259 --> 00:06:01.019 But he had decided. 116 00:06:01.079 --> 00:06:03.839 And what he says is he wanted to get the doctor to fall in love 117 00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:09.600 and he couldn't really do that without kind of breaking the 118 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:11.220 premise of the program. 119 00:06:11.279 --> 00:06:16.139 And so that was when the sort of Superman 2 idea hits him. 120 00:06:16.199 --> 00:06:18.180 He gives up his time lordiness. 121 00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:19.680 Yeah, to become human. 122 00:06:19.740 --> 00:06:21.839 Do you remember reading this song? 123 00:06:21.899 --> 00:06:22.740 No. 124 00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:25.500 By this time I was giving up on the new adventures. 125 00:06:25.620 --> 00:06:29.819 I read some of them, but then there were too many hit and misses. 126 00:06:29.879 --> 00:06:33.060 So then I just picked and choosed the authors and the ones that 127 00:06:33.060 --> 00:06:35.579 they said they were that were really good. 128 00:06:35.579 --> 00:06:40.199 And it was around this time that I decided not to continue buying 129 00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:42.360 them or reading them. 130 00:06:42.420 --> 00:06:45.600 I'd read Kate's and I knew that Paul's were good. 131 00:06:45.660 --> 00:06:48.300 So I can't remember if I even read this. 132 00:06:48.360 --> 00:06:49.319 I may have purchased it. 133 00:06:49.379 --> 00:06:50.519 Did you purchase all of them? 134 00:06:50.579 --> 00:06:57.660 I can't remember whether I think by then, Peter and I had 135 00:06:57.660 --> 00:07:02.579 consolidated our collection and were just buying one copy and I 136 00:07:02.579 --> 00:07:03.420 certainly don't own them now. 137 00:07:03.540 --> 00:07:06.959 I've got a box. reading Brian's copies. 138 00:07:07.019 --> 00:07:08.399 Yeah, I've got a box. 139 00:07:08.459 --> 00:07:10.199 They're not out on the shelf or anything like that. 140 00:07:10.259 --> 00:07:13.680 I have a box in the attic and this is the most embarrassing 141 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:17.399 admission that I've made on the podcast, among many embarrassing 142 00:07:17.399 --> 00:07:21.660 admissions, but I actually got rid of all my target novelisations 143 00:07:21.660 --> 00:07:24.240 but kept the new adventures inexplicably. 144 00:07:24.300 --> 00:07:28.560 And I can't, you know, they are upstairs in the attic and I can't 145 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:30.660 imagine pulling them down again. 146 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:34.680 And the only way that I was able to, you know, read this was by 147 00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:35.519 buying it again. 148 00:07:35.579 --> 00:07:38.100 I wasn't even going to explain. couldn't find it. 149 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:40.680 Well, I just wasn't going to be bothered and, you know, my Kindle 150 00:07:40.680 --> 00:07:41.339 was in my hand. 151 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:42.180 What are you going to do? 152 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:45.120 Well, you see, I got rid of the target novelisations too, because 153 00:07:45.120 --> 00:07:48.240 as soon as it became apparent that, you know, everything was going 154 00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:50.879 to be based on that wonderful thing called VHS. 155 00:07:50.939 --> 00:07:52.620 Everything that was extant. 156 00:07:52.680 --> 00:07:54.360 And then you had audios of the ones that weren't. 157 00:07:54.420 --> 00:07:57.899 The need for the novelisation sort of, for me, evaporated. 158 00:07:57.959 --> 00:08:01.139 And I'm a bit, you know, regretful about that because there is, in 159 00:08:01.139 --> 00:08:03.480 some respects, much more of a nostalgia about that than there is 160 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:04.319 about the new adventures. 161 00:08:04.379 --> 00:08:05.639 But the new adventures are unique. 162 00:08:05.699 --> 00:08:07.560 So they in some respects are worth keeping. 163 00:08:07.620 --> 00:08:10.920 Yeah, because you can't buy them on DVD or anything. 164 00:08:10.980 --> 00:08:15.779 I belong to a group on Facebook, the Doctor Who Target novel 165 00:08:15.779 --> 00:08:20.220 people, and they are constantly hunting down sort of, you know 166 00:08:20.220 --> 00:08:22.920 rare copies or library copies or hardback. 167 00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:24.180 It's usually the wheel in space or something. 168 00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:25.560 Yeah, yeah, Paradise Towers. 169 00:08:25.860 --> 00:08:27.779 And like I've got a lot of sympathy for that. 170 00:08:27.839 --> 00:08:31.079 Certainly, I have great memories of the target novelisations 171 00:08:31.079 --> 00:08:35.159 including things like Doctor Who and the cave monsters, doomsday 172 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:38.460 weapon, like all of these ones that were vastly superior to the 173 00:08:38.460 --> 00:08:40.799 frankly pertweet stories. 174 00:08:40.860 --> 00:08:41.879 Oh, what's up? 175 00:08:41.879 --> 00:08:44.820 I'm offended by it. 176 00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:46.440 No I love them. 177 00:08:46.500 --> 00:08:47.580 I do too. 178 00:08:47.700 --> 00:08:50.279 There's a whole lot of Twittery stuff going on at the moment where 179 00:08:50.279 --> 00:08:54.539 they're voting on the different covers of the different versions 180 00:08:54.539 --> 00:08:56.879 of the target covers. 181 00:08:56.940 --> 00:09:00.720 The original doesn't always win out, but sometimes it's like it's 182 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:02.820 too much nostalgia. just go, I just love that cup. 183 00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:05.460 I'm sorry, let's have a confession here. 184 00:09:05.580 --> 00:09:09.059 The cover that you like is the one that you happen to buy. 185 00:09:09.179 --> 00:09:13.080 And with our age group, we would have been buying for some of 186 00:09:13.080 --> 00:09:15.179 those earlier ones, we'd have been buying the 2nd cover. 187 00:09:15.299 --> 00:09:19.200 Yeah, I had the 2nd cover of the Green Death and of... 188 00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:20.639 And we didn't have dinosaur invasion. 189 00:09:20.759 --> 00:09:22.799 Yeah, we didn't have the clack version of the dinosaur invasion 190 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:23.220 for instance. 191 00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:26.340 And so they're the covers that you think are the best. 192 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:30.480 In fact, I even had a Pyramids of Mars with the neon logo on it 193 00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:33.720 which was, didn't, you know, which I, of course, thought was much 194 00:09:33.720 --> 00:09:37.860 better than the, than this strange drawn one that was, I can't 195 00:09:37.860 --> 00:09:38.820 remember the original. 196 00:09:46.019 --> 00:09:48.120 But let's get back to this. 197 00:09:48.179 --> 00:09:51.419 So, the cold open. 198 00:09:51.480 --> 00:09:52.799 We're right into the adventure. 199 00:09:52.860 --> 00:09:54.059 There's things happening. 200 00:09:54.120 --> 00:09:56.220 The doctor and Martha are being pursued. 201 00:09:56.279 --> 00:10:00.480 We've got the watch, and then we cut to Mr. Smith and his dreams. 202 00:10:00.539 --> 00:10:03.840 It's actually a bit cleverer than you think because you think 203 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:06.299 you're being thrown sort of in made arse rays at the very 204 00:10:06.299 --> 00:10:09.120 beginning, but it turns out that you're actually even further 205 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:09.600 along. 206 00:10:09.659 --> 00:10:12.779 So you think you're starting in the middle of an adventure, but 207 00:10:12.779 --> 00:10:17.159 the adventure is actually, you know, it's months now after that. 208 00:10:17.220 --> 00:10:19.440 And how long have they been there? 209 00:10:19.500 --> 00:10:21.960 How long have Martha and the doctor been there? 210 00:10:22.019 --> 00:10:23.399 several months, several months. 211 00:10:23.460 --> 00:10:25.980 I know that she keeps saying there's only one month to go. 212 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:26.519 Yeah. 213 00:10:26.519 --> 00:10:28.080 So yeah, I think it's supposed to be several months. 214 00:10:28.139 --> 00:10:31.559 It is mentioned, like it's 3 months or a term or something. 215 00:10:31.620 --> 00:10:34.500 Joan does mention how long they've been there for. 216 00:10:34.559 --> 00:10:36.960 But it sets up a lot of interesting questions because I was 217 00:10:36.960 --> 00:10:39.779 writing my notes going, well, how do they get the job and all this 218 00:10:39.779 --> 00:10:44.340 sort of stuff and then that, of course, is then revealed in the 219 00:10:44.340 --> 00:10:45.419 narrative as it goes along. 220 00:10:45.480 --> 00:10:50.519 This wouldn't work if the character of Joan wasn't so well written 221 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:52.259 and performed. 222 00:10:52.919 --> 00:10:58.320 And I think Jessica Hines is just tremendous, giving the strength 223 00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:02.039 to the character of Joan, but also the vulnerability. 224 00:11:02.039 --> 00:11:08.519 And as viewers, we obviously have to accept that the doctoral this 225 00:11:08.519 --> 00:11:11.519 version of the doctor, Mr. Smith, can fall in love with this 226 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:12.120 character. 227 00:11:12.179 --> 00:11:15.899 We've only seen it really once before in Stephen Moffat's episode 228 00:11:15.899 --> 00:11:19.379 with the girl in the fireplace, where there's sort of a love 229 00:11:19.379 --> 00:11:19.980 interest there. 230 00:11:20.340 --> 00:11:24.240 It's a love interest with the actual doctor as opposed to a 231 00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:25.500 simplified version of the doctor. 232 00:11:25.559 --> 00:11:27.960 So it does work so they are different in that regard, which is why 233 00:11:27.960 --> 00:11:28.860 it's quite beautiful, I think. 234 00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:32.759 I think too, that this, you know, the fact that this is being done 235 00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:36.360 with a 10th doctor, who is a romantic figure with a girl in every 236 00:11:36.360 --> 00:11:42.419 fireplace, who was in some sense in love with Rose during the 237 00:11:42.419 --> 00:11:43.019 series 2. 238 00:11:43.740 --> 00:11:47.159 So that makes this story very different from the novelisation 239 00:11:47.159 --> 00:11:52.259 where you've got Sylvester McCoy's doctor who is sort of silly and 240 00:11:52.259 --> 00:11:57.419 sort of sweet, but not at all a romantic hero, and where we 241 00:11:57.419 --> 00:11:59.279 haven't seen the doctor depicted in that way. 242 00:11:59.340 --> 00:12:00.419 Now we're used to it. 243 00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:02.580 You know, when Russell brings the doctor back, he's not the 244 00:12:02.580 --> 00:12:08.220 neutered public schoolboy of the classic series, which is how 245 00:12:08.220 --> 00:12:12.059 Russell actually puts it in the in the kind of series Bible. 246 00:12:12.120 --> 00:12:17.399 So we already have a romantic hero and we already, you know, we're 247 00:12:17.399 --> 00:12:20.159 travelling with a companion who is in love with a doctor who's 248 00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:21.299 attracted to him. 249 00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:26.759 So this isn't as series breaking an idea as it was when it was a 250 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:27.960 novelisation. 251 00:12:28.019 --> 00:12:30.120 It wasn't a novelisation name. 252 00:12:30.179 --> 00:12:31.620 I keep saying novelisation. 253 00:12:31.860 --> 00:12:34.799 Let me I'll see whether to cut that out. 254 00:12:34.860 --> 00:12:35.879 No, don't cut that out. 255 00:12:37.500 --> 00:12:38.940 Yeah. 256 00:12:39.179 --> 00:12:43.259 But just can I add, sorry, just going back to the McCoy version 257 00:12:43.259 --> 00:12:43.440 though. 258 00:12:43.500 --> 00:12:46.019 The McCoy doctor is older, quote unquote. 259 00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:49.980 You know, he's someone who presents as in their late 40s, maybe 260 00:12:49.980 --> 00:12:53.399 even older by the time you get to the new adventures, and the Joan 261 00:12:53.399 --> 00:12:56.039 character in the book is portrayed as older. 262 00:12:56.100 --> 00:13:00.240 So it's sort of a more of a sweet later in life, kind of coming 263 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:04.679 together of like minds, rather than in this, where you've got this 264 00:13:04.679 --> 00:13:07.500 young, handsome, you know, 30 something person. 265 00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:09.240 And so there is a different tone anyway. 266 00:13:09.299 --> 00:13:12.059 Are we reading Jonah's older than the doctor? 267 00:13:12.059 --> 00:13:13.740 than Mr. Smith? 268 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:15.240 In the in the television? 269 00:13:15.299 --> 00:13:15.539 absolutely. 270 00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:17.580 I think she's a little older, but not terribly older. 271 00:13:17.639 --> 00:13:21.179 But I think I think they are coming to this later in life. 272 00:13:21.240 --> 00:13:24.120 You know, they're in their 30s and they're both not married and I 273 00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:26.460 think for that time, that is older. 274 00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:27.240 Well, she was married. 275 00:13:27.299 --> 00:13:28.860 She her husband died, right? 276 00:13:28.980 --> 00:13:31.320 Yes, but she's not married if she doesn't have kids. 277 00:13:31.379 --> 00:13:34.500 Like, yes, she has that past, but they are both older. 278 00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:35.399 Yes. 279 00:13:35.460 --> 00:13:38.879 And I like the fact that it gives David Tennant the opportunity to 280 00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:42.480 be completely different to his doctor, who is always so confident 281 00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:46.019 and talks really quickly, and here he's tongue tidy, he forced 282 00:13:46.019 --> 00:13:51.120 downstairs, he's clumsy, he's very, he's not the man that we 283 00:13:51.120 --> 00:13:51.419 know. 284 00:13:51.480 --> 00:13:54.360 And I think it gives him that opportunity to show a different side 285 00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:56.700 to his ability as an actor. 286 00:13:56.759 --> 00:14:01.679 I think too, that that is a very moffety scene, that scene with 287 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:07.139 Joan and John Smith just kind of blirting for the 1st time. 288 00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:12.419 And um, the doctor's often really super confident, you know, like 289 00:14:12.419 --> 00:14:17.580 even with women, Matt Smith's doctor won't be, you know, Capoldi's 290 00:14:17.580 --> 00:14:21.299 doctor won't be, but but David Tennant's doctor is sort of sexy. 291 00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:22.440 Matt Smith work is more awkward. 292 00:14:22.500 --> 00:14:23.279 Yeah, yeah. 293 00:14:23.340 --> 00:14:26.159 So this is a very moffity scene. 294 00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:27.419 Yeah, well, he's awkward. 295 00:14:27.480 --> 00:14:27.720 Yeah. 296 00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:28.440 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 297 00:14:28.500 --> 00:14:32.519 Like that's Moffatt's sort of go-to sitcom thing. is men and women 298 00:14:32.519 --> 00:14:34.379 being awkward around each other. 299 00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:39.659 And Paul Cornell is obviously a friend of Stephen Moffat. 300 00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:43.559 And in fact, the novelisation includes a character called Mr 301 00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:46.500 Moffat, who is named after... 302 00:14:46.500 --> 00:14:47.940 Yes, that's hilarious, Stephen Moffat. 303 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:51.240 So I think that that's a sort of very particularly moffity scene 304 00:14:51.240 --> 00:14:54.360 and it is really genuinely very funny, and it ends with the sort 305 00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:56.100 of fabulous slapstick falling downstairs. 306 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:02.759 Can I just go back to Jane's performance? 307 00:15:02.820 --> 00:15:04.860 You sort of say how sweet and sort of wonderful. 308 00:15:04.919 --> 00:15:10.320 She's, in some respects, she's the only actor and character in it 309 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:15.899 that you feel could be dropped into Downton Abbey and work because 310 00:15:15.899 --> 00:15:20.039 you know, Timothy Latimer is obviously supposed to be ahead of his 311 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:22.139 time because he's obviously a bit psychic or whatever he is. 312 00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:26.159 And the other boys are a little bit, you know, differently 313 00:15:26.159 --> 00:15:26.460 played. 314 00:15:26.519 --> 00:15:27.240 They're not quite right. 315 00:15:27.299 --> 00:15:29.100 The headmaster is sort of a bit of a caricature. 316 00:15:29.159 --> 00:15:29.879 He's barely in it. 317 00:15:29.940 --> 00:15:34.019 And the doctors, well, the doctor, as John Smith, is a sort of 318 00:15:34.019 --> 00:15:37.019 style of performance, which I'll come to later. 319 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:42.299 But Joan is the one that feels most like she is in a period 320 00:15:42.299 --> 00:15:43.320 drama. 321 00:15:43.379 --> 00:15:45.179 And I think that's why it works as well. 322 00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:47.340 The way she, the little tick she has, the way she doesn't quite 323 00:15:47.340 --> 00:15:49.919 look at the doctor, when she's talking to him and all that sort of 324 00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:54.539 thing, the modesty, the way she tells Martha off for, remember, you 325 00:15:54.539 --> 00:15:56.039 have to remember your place and so on. 326 00:15:56.100 --> 00:15:59.519 It's that sort of prim and proper, you know, the things are done a 327 00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:02.100 certain way, you know, and you should know that, and don't be so 328 00:16:02.100 --> 00:16:03.899 silly, dear, and all that sort of stuff. 329 00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:09.539 She grounds the entire performance in BBC period drama reality. 330 00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:10.620 Yeah, yeah. 331 00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:14.759 And let's talk a little bit about that because this is our 3rd 332 00:16:14.759 --> 00:16:17.639 story this season that's said in the past. 333 00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:22.620 And the last time you were here, Simon, you got what was sort of a 334 00:16:22.620 --> 00:16:25.139 period piece, once said in the 51st century. 335 00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:29.759 And this doesn't do. 336 00:16:29.820 --> 00:16:34.019 I think what has been the sort of standard way of depicting the 337 00:16:34.019 --> 00:16:39.539 past in Doctor Who, which is the theme park past, you know, we 338 00:16:39.539 --> 00:16:42.000 talked about this a great deal in our Shakespeare code episode 339 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:46.500 that all we get are sort of very standard shorthand signifiers of 340 00:16:46.500 --> 00:16:51.120 the year 1599 to kind of locate us there, but the basic messages 341 00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:54.179 people were basically the same back then. 342 00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:58.320 And you were saying something before we were recording, Todd, about 343 00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:01.919 the Dalek 2 parter. to do with Martha. 344 00:17:01.980 --> 00:17:07.619 Well, just, you know, the Hooverville thing, it's set in a world 345 00:17:07.619 --> 00:17:09.779 where racial attitudes are different. 346 00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:13.019 Yeah, I mean, I was saying that this is the 1st time, right front 347 00:17:13.019 --> 00:17:20.039 and centre, that racism towards Martha is there from the boys and 348 00:17:20.039 --> 00:17:23.460 from the other characters, like the headmaster just dismisses her 349 00:17:23.460 --> 00:17:26.160 completely as a woman and whether or not that's a woman. 350 00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:27.960 Well, as a woman, as a servant, as a person, yeah. 351 00:17:28.019 --> 00:17:28.859 Yes, all of those things. 352 00:17:28.920 --> 00:17:32.700 The previous 2 times this season, we've dodged that in the 353 00:17:32.700 --> 00:17:36.299 Shakespeare code, sort of, you know, a bit of humour and then, you 354 00:17:36.299 --> 00:17:40.079 know, left behind and in the whole structure of the Dalek 2 355 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:40.559 parter. 356 00:17:40.619 --> 00:17:41.759 It's not there to be addressed. 357 00:17:41.819 --> 00:17:45.359 You know, we've got Hooverville where we've got Solomon is in 358 00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:49.799 charge, but would we see other white characters reacting to that 359 00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:51.539 the fact that there's a black man in charge? 360 00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:52.380 They don't address that. 361 00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:58.079 But here, it is there and the frustration, We see the frustration 362 00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:03.359 and the resilience of Martha Jones in these episodes. 363 00:18:03.420 --> 00:18:08.640 And as it goes along, I feel her angst and her frustration and 364 00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:12.420 it's great that it's actually in there and they're not shying away 365 00:18:12.420 --> 00:18:12.720 from it. 366 00:18:12.779 --> 00:18:16.440 Yes, I think in the earlier episodes, they're conflicted as to 367 00:18:16.440 --> 00:18:20.099 whether, whether we want to make a thing about her being a person 368 00:18:20.099 --> 00:18:22.920 of colour, or whether we're just trying to say, no, here she is 369 00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:25.380 and it's all fine, it's all normal, because of course everyone's 370 00:18:25.380 --> 00:18:27.539 sophisticated and, you know, that's the past. 371 00:18:27.660 --> 00:18:30.180 And despite the fact that we have gone back into the past before 372 00:18:30.180 --> 00:18:33.779 where it could have been addressed or it could have been noted, it 373 00:18:33.779 --> 00:18:34.079 wasn't. 374 00:18:34.140 --> 00:18:36.359 Well, it is noted in the Shakespeare code. 375 00:18:36.420 --> 00:18:38.759 Like she says, you know, I'm not exactly why. 376 00:18:38.819 --> 00:18:40.440 Do I need to be worried? 377 00:18:40.500 --> 00:18:43.440 And the doctor gives a very kind of white privileged response 378 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:46.440 about, you know, don't be so silly, just walk around like you own 379 00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:46.799 the place. 380 00:18:46.859 --> 00:18:51.240 Yeah, you think, well, that's perhaps not an approach that... is 381 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:51.960 available. 382 00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:53.160 Compare that to Rosa. 383 00:18:53.220 --> 00:18:57.119 Yeah, that's right. where both Towson and Mandeep's characters 384 00:18:57.119 --> 00:18:58.619 actually suffer from racism. 385 00:18:58.680 --> 00:18:59.220 Yes. 386 00:18:59.339 --> 00:19:05.460 And thin ice, I think, as well, brings it up and addresses it in a 387 00:19:05.460 --> 00:19:06.000 better way. 388 00:19:06.059 --> 00:19:10.440 But here, I think, you know, partly it's a kicking the puppy 389 00:19:10.440 --> 00:19:13.559 moment, like partly it's a characterisation of Bains and Hutchison 390 00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:17.039 as arrogant, horrible, you know, public schoolboy. 391 00:19:17.099 --> 00:19:21.539 But it's good characterisation for Martha because, you know, one 392 00:19:21.539 --> 00:19:26.039 of the things about Martha is the, you know, the 1st time we see 393 00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:26.400 her. 394 00:19:26.460 --> 00:19:28.500 She's looking after her family. 395 00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:32.519 She's on the phone, making sure that everything's all right for 396 00:19:32.519 --> 00:19:35.099 kind of Leo's birthday that night. 397 00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:39.420 And we know that she's patient and we know that she's caring and 398 00:19:39.420 --> 00:19:40.079 resilient. 399 00:19:40.140 --> 00:19:45.359 And so I don't think this story works if Rose is in it at all. 400 00:19:45.420 --> 00:19:48.720 You know, like I don't think we've seen rows in the past just 401 00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:52.440 dressing in sort of normal clothes and stuff with Queen Victoria 402 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:56.519 and being kind of arrogant and dismissive of people in the past 403 00:19:56.519 --> 00:20:01.019 where Martha's put in a position where she's subservient to them 404 00:20:01.019 --> 00:20:02.279 and kind of has to wear that. 405 00:20:02.339 --> 00:20:03.660 It totally works. 406 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:07.619 And she doesn't get to the doctor and you see that frustration and 407 00:20:07.619 --> 00:20:13.920 and then Joan herself is also very of her time in terms of her 408 00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:14.819 attitudes, you know. 409 00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:18.359 She asks about Martha and Martha says, I used to work for the 410 00:20:18.359 --> 00:20:18.599 family. 411 00:20:18.660 --> 00:20:19.740 He sort of inherited me. 412 00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:22.079 And Jane says, best remember your position. 413 00:20:22.140 --> 00:20:23.099 Yeah, you know? 414 00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:25.680 And all the way through, the headmaster just dismisses it all the 415 00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:25.799 time. 416 00:20:25.859 --> 00:20:29.339 But as I said, it's not just because she's black. 417 00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:30.420 It's because she's a servant. 418 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:35.519 The servants are seen and not heard. and a woman as well. 419 00:20:35.579 --> 00:20:36.359 I mean, they're outside. 420 00:20:36.539 --> 00:20:39.480 And a woman as well. pub You know, like, I imagine that's because 421 00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:39.960 they're women. 422 00:20:40.019 --> 00:20:42.000 Yes, it's because they're women. 423 00:20:42.059 --> 00:20:45.779 But the headmaster's attitude is, you know, you don't even address 424 00:20:45.779 --> 00:20:46.680 like you don't even talk to me. 425 00:20:46.740 --> 00:20:51.299 And I think that's why the racism of 1913 is a different sort of 426 00:20:51.299 --> 00:20:55.019 racism because, you know, if you look like that, you're only going 427 00:20:55.019 --> 00:20:58.319 to therefore be a servant and therefore it sort of goes hand in 428 00:20:58.319 --> 00:20:58.559 hand. 429 00:20:58.619 --> 00:21:03.059 It's when, in some respects, racism becomes more aggressive, when 430 00:21:03.059 --> 00:21:07.559 there is an attempt to change the socioeconomic positions of 431 00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:08.640 people of colour. 432 00:21:08.700 --> 00:21:12.000 And that's where you get the aggressive racism of the 50s and 433 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:12.359 60s. 434 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:15.299 Because these people are getting ideas above their station. 435 00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:16.140 Yeah. 436 00:21:16.140 --> 00:21:18.119 So while ever Martha's sort of deferential. 437 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:18.720 Quote unquote. 438 00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:19.500 She'll be okay. 439 00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:20.400 Exactly. 440 00:21:20.460 --> 00:21:24.660 Although she is the victim of racism or she gets particularly 441 00:21:24.660 --> 00:21:26.339 targeted by Hutchison. 442 00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:27.660 Baines. 443 00:21:27.660 --> 00:21:31.740 Yes, yes. with that sort of standard association of black people 444 00:21:31.740 --> 00:21:32.519 with being dirty. 445 00:21:32.579 --> 00:21:33.960 Exactly, yes, yes. 446 00:21:34.019 --> 00:21:34.440 Yeah, yeah. 447 00:21:34.500 --> 00:21:35.160 It's good. 448 00:21:35.220 --> 00:21:36.000 I think it's really good. 449 00:21:36.059 --> 00:21:38.460 And I don't think it overwhelms the show. 450 00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:39.839 No, no, at all. 451 00:21:39.900 --> 00:21:41.160 It adds a texture to it. 452 00:21:41.220 --> 00:21:46.140 And I think if it wasn't there, you would have cause to say, well 453 00:21:46.140 --> 00:21:48.900 you've sort of whitewashed history if you want to put it that 454 00:21:48.900 --> 00:21:49.079 way. 455 00:21:49.140 --> 00:21:52.680 I actually like the fact that we're not trying to present the 456 00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:54.720 people of 1913 as the same as us. 457 00:21:54.779 --> 00:22:01.019 And I think that they come off as somewhat incomprehensible and a 458 00:22:01.019 --> 00:22:01.920 bit repellent as well. 459 00:22:01.980 --> 00:22:05.640 Well, apart from Tim, because he's the one that is from the 460 00:22:05.640 --> 00:22:08.819 present day who feels like he's been dropped into 1913. 461 00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:09.539 Yeah, yeah. 462 00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:11.819 But that works because that's supposed to, he's supposed to be, you 463 00:22:11.819 --> 00:22:15.059 know, a younger version of the doctor, you know, curious and, you 464 00:22:15.059 --> 00:22:16.140 know, so on. 465 00:22:16.140 --> 00:22:21.240 It never really properly gets explained why he can see things and 466 00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:22.799 guess things that are correct. 467 00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:26.160 Oh, there's always been, um, the doctor's always met the odd human 468 00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:29.880 who's sort of slightly psychic, slightly psychic or slightly 469 00:22:29.880 --> 00:22:33.839 obviously, you know, evolved to a to a higher form amongst all the 470 00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:35.940 other savages sort of thing, you know, that that's happened 471 00:22:35.940 --> 00:22:36.180 before. 472 00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:39.000 I wonder whether it's the effect of his possession of the watch 473 00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:40.619 kind of echoing back in time. 474 00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:41.700 Well, no. 475 00:22:41.700 --> 00:22:42.599 Oh, echoing back in time. 476 00:22:42.660 --> 00:22:43.140 Yes, I see. 477 00:22:43.140 --> 00:22:44.880 Because he does it before he gets the watch. 478 00:22:44.940 --> 00:22:45.900 Yeah, yes, you're right. 479 00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:46.740 No, quite possibly. 480 00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:48.119 That's a satisfactory excuse. 481 00:22:48.180 --> 00:22:49.140 Thank you. 482 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:53.279 Thomas Sangster, of course, plays Timothy Latimer. 483 00:22:53.339 --> 00:22:56.579 I find him quite Gormless, really. 484 00:22:56.759 --> 00:23:02.519 It's a fine performance, like, but I don't, of the 3 younger 485 00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:03.000 males. 486 00:23:03.059 --> 00:23:07.440 Harry Lloyd is Baines, a son of mine, is by far the most 487 00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:10.920 captivating and standout for me, Tom Palmer, who plays 488 00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:11.579 Hutchinson. 489 00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:12.900 He could be anybody. 490 00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:14.220 Like he's competent. 491 00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:17.519 I think he does get a good acting moment next week. 492 00:23:17.579 --> 00:23:20.640 We'll talk a little bit more about Baines's performances, son of 493 00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:21.240 mine next week. 494 00:23:21.299 --> 00:23:25.500 He does fabulous upperclass twit, though, when he encounters the 495 00:23:25.500 --> 00:23:26.519 space. 496 00:23:26.579 --> 00:23:27.119 I say hello. 497 00:23:27.180 --> 00:23:28.500 Yes, no, he's brilliant. 498 00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:29.339 He is superb. 499 00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:30.180 Yeah, he superb. 500 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:30.900 Yeah, really terrible. 501 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:34.980 Because he walks the line between it being a caricature and it 502 00:23:34.980 --> 00:23:35.700 being a character. 503 00:23:35.700 --> 00:23:38.759 And I think, you know, you can get a, you can get away with a 504 00:23:38.759 --> 00:23:39.480 little bit of character. 505 00:23:39.539 --> 00:23:43.500 You need a bit of caricature to tell people instantly who this 506 00:23:43.500 --> 00:23:46.680 person is and he does that without it just being hammy. 507 00:23:46.740 --> 00:23:48.720 Just going back to Thomas Sangster. 508 00:23:48.779 --> 00:23:49.920 He looks very young. 509 00:23:49.980 --> 00:23:52.920 I think he's afflicted with the fact that he looks like he's 12. 510 00:23:53.220 --> 00:23:55.440 And even when you get to Game of Thrones, where he's quite 511 00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:57.119 possibly 23 or something. 512 00:23:57.180 --> 00:23:59.400 He still looks like he's like 13 years old. 513 00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:03.720 And he's supposed to be, he's quite clearly, he's supposed to be 514 00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:05.400 the same age as the other 2 boys. 515 00:24:05.460 --> 00:24:08.279 They're giving, no, they're giving him his Latin homework to do. 516 00:24:08.339 --> 00:24:09.359 There is no way. 517 00:24:09.359 --> 00:24:13.440 He is basically the trodden on junior member of the same former as 518 00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:13.680 them. 519 00:24:13.740 --> 00:24:18.900 I just assumed that he was bullied by them and able to be beaten 520 00:24:18.900 --> 00:24:21.480 by them because he was younger than them. 521 00:24:21.539 --> 00:24:25.319 Like the sort of fagging system in an English public school. 522 00:24:25.319 --> 00:24:28.380 Because, you know, the others are clearly being played by adults 523 00:24:28.380 --> 00:24:31.680 so that we can, you know, make them work for long periods of time 524 00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:32.339 during the day. 525 00:24:32.519 --> 00:24:37.559 They do have some background tastes next week who are clearly very 526 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:39.420 young and again, we'll talk about that. 527 00:24:39.480 --> 00:24:42.359 But it does look like Thomas Angst is the only actual child 528 00:24:42.359 --> 00:24:43.619 playing a child here. 529 00:24:43.740 --> 00:24:47.460 But I just assumed that he was terribly bright and that the 530 00:24:47.460 --> 00:24:50.339 upperclass twits, Baines and Hutchison were terribly thick. 531 00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:54.180 So he could translate, because he's just been asked to translate 532 00:24:54.180 --> 00:24:57.180 Catullus, and, you know, a kid at an English public school before 533 00:24:57.180 --> 00:25:01.619 the war would have been doing Latin since they were very young, you 534 00:25:01.619 --> 00:25:01.799 know. 535 00:25:01.859 --> 00:25:03.960 And so I imagine he could do their homework. 536 00:25:04.019 --> 00:25:04.920 Fair enough. 537 00:25:04.980 --> 00:25:09.539 But I still think that he is, um, maybe I'm just trying to I'm 538 00:25:09.539 --> 00:25:12.599 just projecting part of my childhood at school in that, you know 539 00:25:12.599 --> 00:25:15.059 you are, even though you're in the same form as these people, you 540 00:25:15.059 --> 00:25:19.259 are the littlest, you are the youngest appearing and, you know 541 00:25:19.259 --> 00:25:21.480 even you are the younger because there can be like, you know, 18 542 00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:24.599 months between these kids and that's a long time when you're when 543 00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:25.200 you're that age. 544 00:25:25.259 --> 00:25:26.279 Anyway, look, it's detail. 545 00:25:26.339 --> 00:25:28.440 But he, I think it's just going back to the original point. 546 00:25:28.500 --> 00:25:31.380 I think the actor has that floor where he looks like he's just 547 00:25:31.380 --> 00:25:33.480 going to look like a child his entire life until he looks like 548 00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:33.779 he's 50. 549 00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:36.359 I agree with you. 550 00:25:36.420 --> 00:25:39.359 I think that's part of my problem with casting him is that he 551 00:25:39.359 --> 00:25:42.660 looks just so young compared to the others. 552 00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:47.880 In the novel, he is called Thomas Dean, and he is younger than the 553 00:25:47.880 --> 00:25:51.900 other boy, and they beat him in the very 1st scene in which he 554 00:25:51.900 --> 00:25:54.779 appears, is being beaten by a knotted rope, and then they 555 00:25:54.779 --> 00:25:59.700 eventually hang him and kill him, and he is revived because he's 556 00:25:59.700 --> 00:26:03.779 got enough kind of residual generation, blah, blah, blah, from the 557 00:26:03.779 --> 00:26:04.140 watch. 558 00:26:04.200 --> 00:26:05.400 In fact, there's not a watch. 559 00:26:05.460 --> 00:26:06.059 No, it's not. 560 00:26:06.119 --> 00:26:06.900 It's a cricket ball. 561 00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:12.420 And Cornell says that it was Russell's idea to make it a watch and 562 00:26:12.420 --> 00:26:16.619 the reason that the watch works is because you can open it. 563 00:26:16.680 --> 00:26:20.759 And so you make a decision, you do a physical action, it opens 564 00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:22.140 special effect. 565 00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:23.160 Yeah, and that's visible. 566 00:26:23.220 --> 00:26:26.940 So the choice of what to do with it makes more sense. 567 00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:32.579 But the cricket ball is retained in the moment where John Smith 568 00:26:32.579 --> 00:26:36.240 has to save the Yes, from the falling piano. the baby and a woman 569 00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:40.079 from the from the falling piano, very much shades of Peter 570 00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:45.000 Davidson, and I just think it's a bit of the doctor shining 571 00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:49.140 through the mask that is on John Smith at that point. 572 00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:51.420 And just going back to what you were saying about those other 573 00:26:51.420 --> 00:26:53.519 differences about what happens to Tim. 574 00:26:53.579 --> 00:26:57.059 I mean, that is a very dark thing to happen. tongue and so on. 575 00:26:57.119 --> 00:27:00.119 I mean, you know, hanged, that it's no way in hell you'd be able 576 00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:00.539 to do that. 577 00:27:00.599 --> 00:27:01.680 No, absolutely. 578 00:27:01.740 --> 00:27:02.400 Yeah. 579 00:27:02.460 --> 00:27:05.460 I actually think I know why he's called Timothy Dean in the 580 00:27:05.460 --> 00:27:06.539 novelisation too. 581 00:27:06.599 --> 00:27:11.099 Because Paul Cornell went to a day event that I was at before 582 00:27:11.099 --> 00:27:16.980 writing this, and there were 2 boys there, Dean and Unarmed, and 583 00:27:16.980 --> 00:27:20.940 he promised to name characters in his next book after. 584 00:27:20.940 --> 00:27:22.619 Yeah, he did a lot of that. 585 00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:27.720 And Arnand does turn up as a character. and so and then Timothy's 586 00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:31.259 last name is Dean, which they obviously change for this. 587 00:27:31.319 --> 00:27:33.720 But I reread some of it last night. 588 00:27:33.779 --> 00:27:37.680 Famously, there's a character called Nathan Bottomley in the 589 00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:39.839 novelisation of human nature. 590 00:27:39.900 --> 00:27:40.980 You in human nature, right? 591 00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:45.180 Inexplicably failed to turn up in the TV show, even though I 592 00:27:45.180 --> 00:27:48.180 thought he was probably the best thing I've ever seen in the 593 00:27:48.180 --> 00:27:48.420 book. 594 00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:54.000 And our friend Sarah and our dear friend Lucy, who died last 595 00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:54.359 year. 596 00:27:54.420 --> 00:27:59.700 Both appear in the prologue that's written by Benny and, you know 597 00:27:59.700 --> 00:28:04.319 Benny spends some time drinking with the 2 of them and arguing and 598 00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:04.680 stuff. 599 00:28:04.740 --> 00:28:07.140 And so Paul does this a lot. 600 00:28:07.140 --> 00:28:09.660 And it's very sweet. 601 00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:12.359 And that's one of the things about those new adventures is we were 602 00:28:12.359 --> 00:28:14.339 kind of weirdly adjacent to them. 603 00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:14.940 Yes, we were. 604 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:17.880 Yeah, in a way that we probably haven't talked about on the 605 00:28:17.880 --> 00:28:21.420 podcast before, but, you know, Kate Orman is someone that we've 606 00:28:21.420 --> 00:28:26.579 all known for decades and who was extremely good in all of her 607 00:28:26.579 --> 00:28:29.519 novelisations and then Paul, who creates some incredible Doctor 608 00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:32.880 Who, in that context, is someone who used to come out and visit 609 00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:33.900 and stuff like that. 610 00:28:38.460 --> 00:28:44.579 Martha is paired up with Jenny, the other servant in quite a bit 611 00:28:44.579 --> 00:28:45.119 of this episode. 612 00:28:45.180 --> 00:28:46.200 I think she's great. 613 00:28:46.619 --> 00:28:48.720 And so likeable. 614 00:28:48.779 --> 00:28:51.539 And when she meets her demise. 615 00:28:51.599 --> 00:28:53.400 It's actually quite affecting. 616 00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:55.019 Yeah, I think so too. 617 00:28:55.079 --> 00:28:59.099 And I think I maybe could have done without the scene of her 618 00:28:59.099 --> 00:29:04.500 cowering in the spaceship being menaced by Baines. 619 00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:09.000 I think that that's just about at the edge of what I think Doctor 620 00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:09.660 Who can do. 621 00:29:09.720 --> 00:29:11.700 It's nothing better than that nasty. 622 00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:12.539 Oh come now. 623 00:29:13.079 --> 00:29:14.819 Do you know what I mean? 624 00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:17.819 Like, it's like an arrogant privileged white kid threatening a 625 00:29:17.819 --> 00:29:22.740 servant in this sort of super gross way. and she's really sort of 626 00:29:22.740 --> 00:29:25.500 properly terrified and she's a character that we've grown to 627 00:29:25.500 --> 00:29:25.799 like. 628 00:29:25.859 --> 00:29:27.539 She's got this sort of lovely accent. 629 00:29:27.599 --> 00:29:31.680 There's that gorgeous scene where the 2 of them are out the front 630 00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:35.940 at the pub and Martha's talking and, you know, they run off to see 631 00:29:35.940 --> 00:29:38.339 the invisible spaceship land and all of that. 632 00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:39.539 She's terribly likeable. 633 00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:42.599 But doesn't that make it better? 634 00:29:42.660 --> 00:29:47.819 The advantage of having 90 minutes rather than 45 minutes to tell 635 00:29:47.819 --> 00:29:50.759 a story is that you can do those things with the characters. 636 00:29:50.819 --> 00:29:53.339 You can get to know them before they're taken from you. 637 00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:56.160 So you will have more, it will affect you more. 638 00:29:56.220 --> 00:29:59.640 That means you can have a more a deeper emotional engagement with 639 00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:01.140 the with the plot. 640 00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:05.640 You can do that and still have a fast-paced pre-credit sequence 641 00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:09.240 for the 1st episode because after that, it all the pacing then 642 00:30:09.240 --> 00:30:14.640 drops back into a sort of a more mellow sort of flavour before it 643 00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:15.960 then sort of ramps up again. 644 00:30:16.019 --> 00:30:20.220 It does exactly what you should be doing with a 90 minute story 645 00:30:20.220 --> 00:30:21.599 rather than a 45 minute story. 646 00:30:21.660 --> 00:30:25.200 And the advantages of that are just, I think, cannot be 647 00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:25.740 overstated. 648 00:30:25.859 --> 00:30:29.039 Well, I always talk about Greg and Petra in this context, you know 649 00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:30.839 by the time where you finished watching Inferno. 650 00:30:30.900 --> 00:30:31.980 You know Greg and Petra? 651 00:30:32.039 --> 00:30:33.539 Yeah, you've spent a month and a half with them. 652 00:30:33.539 --> 00:30:36.839 Three hours of yell about them. that's right. 653 00:30:36.900 --> 00:30:39.539 And you can't possibly get that in a 45 minute episode. 654 00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:40.019 Yeah. 655 00:30:40.019 --> 00:30:42.720 So otherwise, if it was a 45 minute episode. 656 00:30:42.779 --> 00:30:44.819 Jenny wouldn't have would have barely appeared. 657 00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:47.160 She'd have been in half a scene with Martha scrubbing the floor. 658 00:30:47.220 --> 00:30:47.940 Yeah, yeah. 659 00:30:47.940 --> 00:30:51.119 But it's great that both Jenny and Baines take the central roles 660 00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:54.539 of son of mine and mother of mine heading into the next episode 661 00:30:54.539 --> 00:30:58.740 because the other 2 characters are much more thinly written, which 662 00:30:58.740 --> 00:30:59.700 is the girl with the balloon. 663 00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:01.500 So she's called Lucy, I think. 664 00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:03.359 But she's daughter of mine, yeah. 665 00:31:03.420 --> 00:31:03.839 Yeah, yeah. 666 00:31:03.900 --> 00:31:07.440 And she skips along to some little music that reminds me of the 667 00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:09.240 girl from Remembrance. 668 00:31:09.299 --> 00:31:10.140 Yes, I thought that too. 669 00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:10.440 Yes. 670 00:31:10.500 --> 00:31:14.279 And then Mr. Clark, who owns a farm or... 671 00:31:14.279 --> 00:31:15.119 Has a big moustache. 672 00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:16.319 And that's about it. 673 00:31:16.380 --> 00:31:17.099 You know? 674 00:31:17.220 --> 00:31:21.660 And he sort of fobbed off to the side anyway, trying to find the 675 00:31:21.660 --> 00:31:22.140 Tartars. 676 00:31:22.140 --> 00:31:24.539 But there's still more characters in this than there are. 677 00:31:24.599 --> 00:31:28.019 Oh, yeah, but I'm just saying that those 2 are much more thinly 678 00:31:28.019 --> 00:31:30.599 drawn than Jenny and. 679 00:31:30.660 --> 00:31:34.140 I think for them, you know, Mr. Clarke, it's in the performance 680 00:31:34.140 --> 00:31:37.980 and the look and for Lucy, again, performance and look. 681 00:31:38.039 --> 00:31:41.940 And we'll talk more about them next week, I think when we sort of 682 00:31:41.940 --> 00:31:42.660 see them properly. 683 00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:47.339 One of the things I really love about this episode are all the 684 00:31:47.339 --> 00:31:49.380 little touches to the past or the future. 685 00:31:49.500 --> 00:31:53.460 Like I love all the little flashbacks when Timothy opens the watch 686 00:31:53.460 --> 00:31:54.779 to things that we've seen. 687 00:31:54.839 --> 00:31:59.880 I love the doctor's journal of impossible things with all the 688 00:31:59.880 --> 00:32:02.819 little sketches of rose, blue box, and obviously McCoy and 689 00:32:02.819 --> 00:32:03.900 McGann. 690 00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:05.700 Yes, McGann becomes canon at that point. 691 00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:07.440 Oh, he was always canon. 692 00:32:07.500 --> 00:32:11.579 Was that the 1st time we saw, we had reference to the original 693 00:32:11.579 --> 00:32:13.619 seer. proper reference beyond Daleks and Cyberman. 694 00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:14.099 Yeah. 695 00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:17.700 Well, so we decided that the 1st time there were real proper 696 00:32:17.700 --> 00:32:22.319 references to the old series was when Sarah Jane Smith comes back 697 00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:23.339 in school reunion. 698 00:32:23.400 --> 00:32:24.420 Of course. 699 00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:31.079 And we think, you know, there are hints at it, but the 1st sort of 700 00:32:31.079 --> 00:32:34.799 real proper statement that it's the same kind of continuity is 701 00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:35.099 there. 702 00:32:35.160 --> 00:32:41.039 But we haven't seen original series doctors and we do see sketches 703 00:32:41.039 --> 00:32:42.299 of them here. 704 00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:47.759 But we also get with Joan and the doctor when they're walking in 705 00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:52.079 the field and she's asking about his past. and Gallifrey and my 706 00:32:52.079 --> 00:32:55.259 mother was verity and my father was Sydney, of course, references 707 00:32:55.259 --> 00:32:56.940 to Veroti Lambert and Sydney Newman. 708 00:32:57.000 --> 00:32:57.359 Yeah. 709 00:32:57.359 --> 00:32:59.460 And so there's all those little touches. 710 00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:02.099 But that's more of an in-joke for our benefit rather than here is 711 00:33:02.099 --> 00:33:03.539 a sketch of Paul McGann. 712 00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:07.859 I think, too, that that is a lovely in joke and it's a very poor 713 00:33:07.859 --> 00:33:09.720 Cornell in joke as well. 714 00:33:09.779 --> 00:33:14.940 It is absolutely beautiful because it shows a real reverence for 715 00:33:14.940 --> 00:33:22.200 those 2 people who really did give birth to Doctor Who, and I love 716 00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:22.619 it a lot. 717 00:33:22.680 --> 00:33:24.420 I think it's, yeah, it's just one. 718 00:33:33.480 --> 00:33:37.920 One of the things in this story is the whole Martha visiting the 719 00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:41.519 TARDIS, and then she gets the whole, we get the whole explanation 720 00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:45.359 in flashback as to what's going on, and it all seems rather rushed 721 00:33:45.359 --> 00:33:47.880 and the family are after them. 722 00:33:47.940 --> 00:33:48.779 Did you see the face? 723 00:33:48.900 --> 00:33:51.480 I've got to then put this thing on my head and become part of the 724 00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:51.779 watch. 725 00:33:51.839 --> 00:33:56.460 But then she gets to look at the 24 reasons, you know, if 726 00:33:56.460 --> 00:33:59.519 something happens to me, The doctor has sat down and obviously had 727 00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:02.880 several minutes to be able to explain to her what to do. her not 728 00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:03.059 there. 729 00:34:03.119 --> 00:34:03.779 Correct. 730 00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:07.680 And it's something in terms of the structure that doesn't 731 00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:09.000 necessarily... 732 00:34:09.059 --> 00:34:13.860 In the original, the doctor gives Benny a note, a handwritten note 733 00:34:13.860 --> 00:34:15.480 with all of that stuff, you know. 734 00:34:15.900 --> 00:34:20.039 I really like that scene a great deal because I think Murray's 735 00:34:20.039 --> 00:34:22.139 music is amazingly atmospheric. 736 00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:23.219 It's really, really good. 737 00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:26.219 And there's a real kind of sense of dread. 738 00:34:26.219 --> 00:34:30.719 And it's partly those quick flashbacks to, you know, tenant 739 00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:34.199 gurning his face off in the chameleon arch, which why wasn't it 740 00:34:34.199 --> 00:34:35.400 called a transformation arch? 741 00:34:35.460 --> 00:34:39.179 I think they really skipped a potential Delta and the Bannerman 742 00:34:39.179 --> 00:34:39.719 reference there. 743 00:34:39.780 --> 00:34:41.940 I think that's very well directed. 744 00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:44.099 I think it's ominous. 745 00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:48.059 You know, it's sort of frightening and it is the place where we 746 00:34:48.059 --> 00:34:49.380 really find out the premise. 747 00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:52.019 It's impossible for us to watch this now without already knowing 748 00:34:52.019 --> 00:34:54.719 what's going on, but that's where we find out, isn't it? 749 00:34:54.780 --> 00:34:55.500 Oh, yeah. 750 00:34:55.559 --> 00:34:56.940 I don't have a problem with that. 751 00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:00.179 We come back to it, obviously, later in the episode because Martha 752 00:35:00.179 --> 00:35:06.539 needs to, is expressing her anxiety or her frustration with the 753 00:35:06.539 --> 00:35:07.440 doctor falling in love. 754 00:35:07.500 --> 00:35:09.119 You know, what about women? 755 00:35:09.179 --> 00:35:11.039 Had to fall in love with a human. 756 00:35:11.099 --> 00:35:12.420 That wasn't me. 757 00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:17.460 Oh, I literally went, well, I just literally did that when she 758 00:35:17.460 --> 00:35:19.739 actually said those lines. 759 00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:22.800 She could have just said, you had to go and fall in love with a 760 00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:23.099 human. 761 00:35:23.159 --> 00:35:24.420 Like it could have stopped. 762 00:35:24.539 --> 00:35:28.320 One of the problems I've got with this season is Martha in love 763 00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:30.360 with the doctor goes on and on and on. 764 00:35:30.420 --> 00:35:32.400 I don't have a problem with it in the 1st 3 episodes. 765 00:35:32.519 --> 00:35:38.099 She has a real moment in episode 3 at the end where she sort of 766 00:35:38.099 --> 00:35:41.820 sits down with the doctor and, you know, I feel that there's some 767 00:35:41.820 --> 00:35:45.599 sort of moment where she might be letting it go of it a bit, in 768 00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:49.679 the Dalek 2 parter, because of the structure of that story, to 769 00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:53.519 deliver on her, have 2 conversations, about being in love with 770 00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:58.739 somebody who's unavailable, with that fantastic joke in episode 5 771 00:35:58.739 --> 00:36:00.659 that is into musical theatre. 772 00:36:01.019 --> 00:36:04.260 But at that point, I kind of feel like, okay, she's having this 773 00:36:04.260 --> 00:36:04.800 conversation. 774 00:36:04.860 --> 00:36:06.059 She's working it out of her system. 775 00:36:06.119 --> 00:36:10.260 And in the last 2 episodes, it sort of made a bit of a joke of in 776 00:36:10.260 --> 00:36:12.119 the Lazarus experiment. 777 00:36:12.179 --> 00:36:15.360 And last week in 42, I mean, Martha has a love interest and it's 778 00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:16.920 sort of like, I feel like she's moved on. 779 00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:20.940 And for me, at that point in this episode, just that line, just 780 00:36:20.940 --> 00:36:24.300 you know, that wasn't me, just irritates me. 781 00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:27.960 I just think the line's a bit on the nose and I think that Freema 782 00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:30.780 is well and truly capable of conveying that she's still in love 783 00:36:30.780 --> 00:36:33.599 with the doctor without us having to hear her say that. 784 00:36:33.659 --> 00:36:36.539 I don't mind her being in love with the doctor. 785 00:36:36.599 --> 00:36:39.360 I do think, though, that this does represent a real proper 786 00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:43.019 development in her relationship with a doctor, and it's certainly 787 00:36:43.019 --> 00:36:46.260 not a story that could have happened any earlier in the season. 788 00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:51.420 And I think the Lazarus experiment is really kind of the proper 789 00:36:51.420 --> 00:36:57.780 moment where the doctor stops being dismissive of her and is 790 00:36:57.780 --> 00:37:00.000 openly appreciative of her. 791 00:37:00.059 --> 00:37:05.760 And here, the fact that he trusts her enough to look after him for 792 00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:09.059 all of these months, that he knows that she's reliable and 793 00:37:09.059 --> 00:37:12.059 responsible and caring, like that's good. 794 00:37:12.119 --> 00:37:15.719 That makes her being in love with him a bit less. 795 00:37:15.780 --> 00:37:21.659 Um, you know, a little bit more tolerable because if she's in love 796 00:37:21.659 --> 00:37:22.619 with him. 797 00:37:22.679 --> 00:37:27.360 She's at least in love with someone who likes and appreciates 798 00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:27.900 her. 799 00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:32.159 And that smile that Tenant gives at the end of the recording where 800 00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:35.760 he says, oh, and by the way, thanks, and we freeze frame on that 801 00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:40.079 smile, which is a lovely, you know, sort of genuine seeming tenant 802 00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:40.500 smile. 803 00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:42.119 We don't see his teeth or anything. 804 00:37:42.360 --> 00:37:44.639 I think that that helps a bit. 805 00:37:44.699 --> 00:37:47.460 But I do agree that that bit of dialogue, I think is on the nose. 806 00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:50.099 And, you know, when you're in production, you're not going to be 807 00:37:50.099 --> 00:37:52.199 able to see that you're too close to things, it's only from a 808 00:37:52.199 --> 00:37:55.800 distance, then, you know, I think the conversation she has next 809 00:37:55.800 --> 00:37:58.679 week works perfectly fine without having that better dialogue in 810 00:37:58.679 --> 00:37:58.860 there. 811 00:37:58.920 --> 00:38:03.119 I just think it's, it was an unfortunate choice for the character 812 00:38:03.119 --> 00:38:05.519 and I just think it was tedious. 813 00:38:05.639 --> 00:38:09.360 And so every time it happened, I would, you know, roll my eyes and 814 00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:12.960 and then, yeah, throw out it because I just thought it was doing 815 00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:13.559 rose again. 816 00:38:13.619 --> 00:38:17.219 Because Rose falls in love with the doctor, especially the tenant 817 00:38:17.219 --> 00:38:17.460 doctor. 818 00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:21.719 I think it weighs the character down, but I've actually not minded 819 00:38:21.780 --> 00:38:24.059 weighs the program down. fair enough. 820 00:38:24.119 --> 00:38:26.760 I've not minded it as much this time round. 821 00:38:26.820 --> 00:38:28.980 Like, I can see where they're coming from and what they're trying 822 00:38:28.980 --> 00:38:32.579 to do with it, but this is the 1st time that I'm quite irritated 823 00:38:32.579 --> 00:38:34.559 by that, but it's not a big deal. 824 00:38:34.619 --> 00:38:35.579 No, it's not a big deal. 825 00:38:35.639 --> 00:38:38.219 But you know, on the flip side, she does get to slap the doctor. 826 00:38:38.280 --> 00:38:41.340 Like, in this episode, which I think is just hilarious, like 827 00:38:41.340 --> 00:38:43.260 mother-like daughter. 828 00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:45.719 Although I think this time it's earned, whereas I think 2 weeks 829 00:38:45.719 --> 00:38:47.699 ago, I think it's not quite earned. 830 00:38:47.820 --> 00:38:52.380 Yeah, and it's just done for effect and I have a problem with that 831 00:38:52.380 --> 00:38:55.199 but that's a conversation for another time. 832 00:39:04.260 --> 00:39:07.260 So let's talk about the dance? 833 00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:08.639 Yes, the climax. 834 00:39:08.699 --> 00:39:10.260 So the village dance? 835 00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:11.760 On the 11th of November. 836 00:39:11.820 --> 00:39:12.840 1913. 837 00:39:13.079 --> 00:39:15.000 Yeah, so, I mean, obviously. 838 00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:16.920 Yeah, yeah. 839 00:39:16.980 --> 00:39:19.380 So this takes place over 2 days. 840 00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:23.280 I think it starts on the 10th of November. like he in, you know, I 841 00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:26.039 think the Joan and John Smith have that conversation about going 842 00:39:26.039 --> 00:39:29.639 to the dance, the initial one that ends up with him falling down 843 00:39:29.639 --> 00:39:30.119 the stairs. 844 00:39:30.179 --> 00:39:31.079 It's the day before. 845 00:39:31.139 --> 00:39:34.739 And I do like where he gets that little moment of doctor-ish sort 846 00:39:34.739 --> 00:39:39.000 of sexual confidence to invite her to the dance after rescuing the 847 00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:40.260 baby from the falling piano. 848 00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:41.699 Yes, yes, yes. 849 00:39:41.760 --> 00:39:43.739 That's the moment when he does it. 850 00:39:43.800 --> 00:39:48.659 But it is very chaste and wholesome dance, which is entirely 851 00:39:48.659 --> 00:39:49.380 appropriate, I guess. 852 00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:54.539 Did you recognise the there's a veteran, presumably he's a Boer 853 00:39:54.539 --> 00:39:57.420 War veteran because there's a few references to people fighting in 854 00:39:57.420 --> 00:40:02.340 the Boer War, including the headmaster and Jones' 1st husband. 855 00:40:02.400 --> 00:40:03.420 Well, husband. 856 00:40:03.900 --> 00:40:08.280 And he's the one who gets sort of vaporised by Baines. 857 00:40:08.340 --> 00:40:17.280 But he was evil mob boss Largo in the Blake 7 classic shadow from 858 00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:18.300 early integrity. 859 00:40:18.420 --> 00:40:19.739 Are you talking about the guy in the wheelchair? 860 00:40:19.739 --> 00:40:20.579 No. 861 00:40:20.579 --> 00:40:22.440 Seeking the nation's? 862 00:40:22.500 --> 00:40:24.000 Yeah, I don't think he's in a wheelchair though, is he? 863 00:40:24.059 --> 00:40:24.360 Is he? 864 00:40:24.420 --> 00:40:25.380 I think he's standing at the door. 865 00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:26.699 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 866 00:40:26.760 --> 00:40:27.780 I can't remember. 867 00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:29.039 But yes, yeah. 868 00:40:29.099 --> 00:40:31.260 Oh, in this episode, he's standing at the door. 869 00:40:31.260 --> 00:40:32.280 Oh, standing at the door. 870 00:40:32.340 --> 00:40:33.360 Martha just walked straight past him. 871 00:40:33.420 --> 00:40:34.199 Yeah, forget it. 872 00:40:34.260 --> 00:40:35.400 Yeah, this is the... 873 00:40:35.400 --> 00:40:38.219 I've had enough of this... this is the 1913 crap. 874 00:40:38.280 --> 00:40:38.579 Yeah. 875 00:40:38.579 --> 00:40:41.340 You know, I'm a woman from 2007. 876 00:40:41.460 --> 00:40:43.079 I'm not going to do this anymore. 877 00:40:43.139 --> 00:40:44.280 I really like that. 878 00:40:44.340 --> 00:40:47.219 Her and Jonah, my MVPs of this episode. 879 00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:49.440 Even that the dialogue exchange. 880 00:40:49.500 --> 00:40:52.440 He says, you know, back entrance or servants entrance or something 881 00:40:52.440 --> 00:40:52.739 I think. 882 00:40:53.340 --> 00:40:55.260 And she says, yeah, no, I don't think so, mate. 883 00:40:55.320 --> 00:40:56.400 I don't think so, mate. 884 00:40:56.460 --> 00:40:58.380 But the beautiful thing is she doesn't even slow down. 885 00:40:58.440 --> 00:40:59.039 No. 886 00:40:59.639 --> 00:41:01.260 And it is. 887 00:41:01.320 --> 00:41:04.619 She's had enough of all your 1913 crap at this. 888 00:41:04.679 --> 00:41:05.460 Exactly. 889 00:41:05.519 --> 00:41:06.239 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 890 00:41:06.300 --> 00:41:10.739 And so we have, you know, all of the family, I think the little 891 00:41:10.739 --> 00:41:14.219 girl has been sitting there at the dance being bored and resentful 892 00:41:14.219 --> 00:41:18.000 for quite some time, which I think is sort of super hilarious. 893 00:41:18.059 --> 00:41:21.659 And then everyone else sort of converges on it with the lobster 894 00:41:21.659 --> 00:41:22.139 guns. 895 00:41:22.260 --> 00:41:24.000 They're very strange guns. 896 00:41:24.059 --> 00:41:25.679 They are indeed, aren't they? 897 00:41:25.739 --> 00:41:28.559 Yeah, I've never thought of them as lobster. 898 00:41:28.619 --> 00:41:30.420 They do kind of, they do look like the kind of guns that would 899 00:41:30.420 --> 00:41:32.219 have turned up in, you know, mind warp or something. 900 00:41:32.280 --> 00:41:36.059 I gather that there was some idea that they were actually an 901 00:41:36.059 --> 00:41:41.760 animal in in a sort of frame that finds the sort of disintegration 902 00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:45.239 thing, but perhaps that just didn't properly make it to screen. 903 00:41:45.300 --> 00:41:48.360 But yeah, like they look like sort of giant lobsters. 904 00:41:48.420 --> 00:41:48.960 Yes. 905 00:41:48.960 --> 00:41:52.739 And we get all the scarecrows attacking... 906 00:41:52.739 --> 00:41:54.659 I'm sure the guns seemed like a good idea at the time. 907 00:41:54.719 --> 00:41:55.739 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 908 00:41:55.800 --> 00:41:58.440 Well, you know, like Doctor Who at this time actually does quite a 909 00:41:58.440 --> 00:42:00.840 good job of trying to differentiate things like spaceships and 910 00:42:00.840 --> 00:42:03.960 guns and stuff, like to try and, this is the prop from last year 911 00:42:03.960 --> 00:42:05.400 that we've just spray painted. 912 00:42:05.460 --> 00:42:06.239 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 913 00:42:06.300 --> 00:42:06.659 Exactly. 914 00:42:06.780 --> 00:42:08.340 But I love the cliff. 915 00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:11.280 I love this whole cliffhanger whereby the doctor isn't there to 916 00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:11.940 save the day. 917 00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:14.460 John Smith is flailing. 918 00:42:14.519 --> 00:42:16.860 Martha is the one that they know. 919 00:42:16.920 --> 00:42:22.380 And there's dialogue that he has at the end there. like your 920 00:42:22.380 --> 00:42:23.699 friend or your lover. 921 00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:25.980 Your choice. 922 00:42:26.039 --> 00:42:28.800 I can't even do it half as good, but it's just... 923 00:42:28.920 --> 00:42:30.179 He's really good. 924 00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:31.019 Fantastic. 925 00:42:31.079 --> 00:42:32.219 I do want to spend some time next week. 926 00:42:32.280 --> 00:42:34.199 Yes, I'm saving it for next week. 927 00:42:34.260 --> 00:42:35.519 He's really tripping. 928 00:42:35.579 --> 00:42:39.539 All of that, it's sort of slightly low scale, isn't it? 929 00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:42.719 But it is super interesting because the doctor's absent and 930 00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:46.619 because a decision is being given to someone who really has no 931 00:42:46.619 --> 00:42:50.280 idea and I don't think we could even be confident how he would 932 00:42:50.280 --> 00:42:50.699 decide. 933 00:42:50.760 --> 00:42:53.579 No, how are we going to get out of this? 934 00:42:53.639 --> 00:42:54.599 Yeah, yeah. 935 00:42:54.659 --> 00:42:55.500 Yes. 936 00:42:55.559 --> 00:42:57.480 I think that's what that's what makes it strong. 937 00:42:57.539 --> 00:42:59.760 And it's so exciting that, you know, the universe isn't about to 938 00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:00.539 be destroyed or something. 939 00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:02.460 You know, it's so much better than it's just about this. 940 00:43:02.519 --> 00:43:07.079 I also love the fact that the next time on Doctor Who, when you 941 00:43:07.079 --> 00:43:11.039 watch it, actually doesn't give anything away for next week. 942 00:43:11.099 --> 00:43:12.659 The way it's cut together is very clever. 943 00:43:12.719 --> 00:43:16.739 Yeah, it cheats horribly, but we'll talk more about that next 944 00:43:16.739 --> 00:43:16.980 week. 945 00:43:17.099 --> 00:43:19.980 Because it uses sequences from the end of the episode, right? 946 00:43:20.820 --> 00:43:26.039 But I do like that because quite often next times give quite a bit 947 00:43:26.039 --> 00:43:26.519 away. 948 00:43:26.579 --> 00:43:30.059 Whereas, whereas I just felt watching and I'm going, yeah, I like 949 00:43:30.059 --> 00:43:33.119 the fact that it's a misdirection in the way it's cut together. 950 00:43:33.179 --> 00:43:37.019 I just think that the whole thing does have a classic series 951 00:43:37.019 --> 00:43:41.159 cliffhanger feel to it. a better classic series cliffhanger feel 952 00:43:41.159 --> 00:43:46.920 where you it builds up in the last few minutes to the cliffhanger 953 00:43:46.920 --> 00:43:47.400 itself. 954 00:43:47.460 --> 00:43:49.380 It's sort of a bit logical. 955 00:43:49.380 --> 00:43:56.280 At the same time, it's it's delightful because it is a contrived 956 00:43:56.280 --> 00:43:56.880 moment. 957 00:43:56.880 --> 00:44:02.039 And when it's all resolved next week, you could cut out the three 958 00:44:02.039 --> 00:44:05.039 4 minutes surround it and the story would have just continued. 959 00:44:05.099 --> 00:44:08.159 You know, without this contrivance in the middle of it, which also 960 00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:09.960 gives it a very comforting feel. 961 00:44:10.019 --> 00:44:13.320 Comforting in a Doctor Who kind of work, comforting that this is 962 00:44:13.320 --> 00:44:13.860 how things are done. 963 00:44:13.920 --> 00:44:18.239 There's a confidence in this production in terms of the 964 00:44:18.239 --> 00:44:24.599 performances in terms of the dialogue, the music, and the design 965 00:44:24.599 --> 00:44:29.159 that for me makes this episode up to this point in this season 966 00:44:29.159 --> 00:44:32.400 along with Shakespeare code, my favourite 2 episodes up to this 967 00:44:32.400 --> 00:44:33.539 point in the season. 968 00:44:33.659 --> 00:44:34.980 I just think this is really strong. 969 00:44:35.039 --> 00:44:37.139 It's not my favourite thing ever. 970 00:44:37.199 --> 00:44:40.619 Like I'm going to give it 8.5 out of 10, but I think it's a really 971 00:44:40.619 --> 00:44:42.719 solid episode of Doctor Who. 972 00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:13.800 Well, dear listener, this fruit cup isn't going to drink itself, so 973 00:45:13.800 --> 00:45:16.619 we're going to grab a paper cup and a chair while we wait a week 974 00:45:16.619 --> 00:45:18.900 for Mr. Smith to make his terrible decision. 975 00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:22.679 We'll be back next week to check in on the family of blood. 976 00:45:22.739 --> 00:45:25.739 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts 977 00:45:25.739 --> 00:45:28.679 and you can keep up with us at flightthroughentirety.com. 978 00:45:28.739 --> 00:45:31.860 Flight through entirety on Facebook and at FDE podcast on 979 00:45:31.860 --> 00:45:32.280 Twitter. 980 00:45:32.340 --> 00:45:36.420 You can also find our series 11 flashcast, Jody Interterterra at 981 00:45:36.420 --> 00:45:40.260 Jody Interterra.com and at Jody Interterra on Twitter and our 982 00:45:40.260 --> 00:45:44.340 James Bond Commentary Podcast, Bondfinger at bondfinger.com, at 983 00:45:44.340 --> 00:45:47.579 bondfinger on Facebook, and at bondfingercast on Twitter. 984 00:45:47.820 --> 00:45:52.380 Until next time, remember not to let me eat pears. 985 00:45:52.440 --> 00:45:53.820 I hate pears. 986 00:45:53.880 --> 00:45:55.980 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 987 00:45:56.039 --> 00:45:57.300 See you soon. 988 00:45:57.420 --> 00:45:58.019 Till next time. 989 00:46:01.079 --> 00:46:04.320 That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd Beelby, Nathan 990 00:46:04.320 --> 00:46:05.639 Bottleley, and Simon Moore. 991 00:46:05.699 --> 00:46:08.340 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings performance by Jane 992 00:46:08.340 --> 00:46:09.119 Orberg. 993 00:46:09.239 --> 00:46:12.420 This episode, dropped into Downton Abbey, was recorded on the 18th 994 00:46:12.420 --> 00:46:15.119 of August 2019 and released on the 3rd of November. 995 00:46:21.179 --> 00:46:24.420 The Chameleon Arch was originally invented by Terence Deeks, who 996 00:46:24.420 --> 00:46:27.300 intended it to be used by John Pertwee's doctor, so he could 997 00:46:27.300 --> 00:46:30.599 become human and vote for Edward Heath in the 1974 general 998 00:46:30.599 --> 00:46:31.079 election. 999 00:46:34.199 --> 00:46:36.480 It is very needed to mention that I was in it. 1000 00:46:36.539 --> 00:46:37.260 That was really all. 1001 00:46:37.260 --> 00:46:40.199 I'm in one and I can't remember which one I'm in. 1002 00:46:40.260 --> 00:46:41.639 I don't have a cold in one of them. 1003 00:46:41.699 --> 00:46:43.019 You died of what? 1004 00:46:43.079 --> 00:46:43.619 A cold. 1005 00:46:44.519 --> 00:46:46.980 Not in that one, but in another one. 1006 00:46:47.099 --> 00:46:48.360 Is that because of Voltana or something? 1007 00:46:48.420 --> 00:46:49.679 I get Voltron. 1008 00:46:49.739 --> 00:46:50.340 I don't know. 1009 00:46:50.940 --> 00:46:52.619 What a story. 1010 00:46:53.519 --> 00:46:55.559 Martha is paired up with.