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NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:29:49

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Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that can smell David Tennant from the other side of the universe.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Todd.

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And I'm Simon.

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Well, the fruit cup has run out.

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The band is nowhere to be seen, and we've been sitting here awkwardly for an entire week waiting for Mr. Smith to make his terrible decision.

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Who will live and who will die?

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Let's find out as we discuss the family of blood.

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You didn't notice that there didn't seem to be any visible band of any kind.

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No, I did not.

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The music's just coming out of thin air.

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It is. did not notice that. you kidding me?

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Maybe they're the 1st ones to be vaporised, please.

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Oh, no way.

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Yep they're not visible.

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It's basically a pretty lavish looking production, I have to say, but there are some obvious cheaping... funny.

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I disagree with that.

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No, I'm not saying it doesn't look good.

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I'm just saying it doesn't look like they need to spend a lot of money on it because it's all easy.

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Because it's all sort of locations.

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Yeah, yeah.

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The church hall and, you know.

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You know, they have a lot of background artists.

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They do. which is refreshing.

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Yeah, yeah, that is kind of nice.

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And particularly in this episode, because you've got the scene in the village hall and you've got, you know, a whole heap of boys at the school.

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Yeah, yeah.

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The place seems populated.

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And there are a lot of, they must be sort of digitally kind of doubled or tripled or quadrupled or something.

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The scarecrow.

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Yeah, yeah, there are a lot of them in the attack.

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How do they make them again?

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We don't know.

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But son of mine says that he created them.

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Yes.

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Very quickly.

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Yes.

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Oh, who cares?

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But the thing is, though, that it's quite clear he's taken the template of one and somehow duplicated.

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It's not like every farmer in the area has the same looking scarecrow.

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That's the implication is that he's also stitched them together.

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Anthony anally turns up.

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Dusting the dusting the hay off.

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What do we think of the scarecrows?

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I think they're brilliant and I think they're brilliant because of the way they move.

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The weird lumbering where you're not sure which bits are joined, you know, where is the shoulder, where is the elbow and I think that's quite effective.

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They've got very sort of floppy limbs as if they have no.

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As if they're made of straw, yeah.

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And I think the face too, which is very kind of skull like.

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Yes.

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And the stitching over the lips and things.

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It's quite grotesque actually.

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We have had scarecrows before, but they've always been sort of adjacent to Doctor Who, not really in the actual show.

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So you remember that the 2nd doctor meets his demise at the hands of some scarecrows in the comics in season 6B. And I think Doctor Who meets Scratch Man.

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Does that have some scarecrows in it?

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I think it probably does.

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So we've never had them before.

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And this is a story that would otherwise completely lack non-human monsters, isn't it?

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Yes.

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So if you want merch or if you want things for the kids to be fine.

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Yeah, you need you need them, I think.

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Wasn't there a straw queen of the May in an episode?

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No, that was Tegan.

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But as usual, and I've said this before, and I'll say it again, if I'm given the opportunity.

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The best Doctor Who stories often have no, or the monster that is the sideline.

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The real villain is a human or humanoid type figure.

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Well, I mean we do get that here.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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That's what I'm saying.

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It's a thing.

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The scarecrows are just window dressing.

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Yeah.

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Well, it's a thing that Holmes does very often, isn't it?

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Where he's given some stupid monster and he's sort of fairly confident that they're not going to be able to realise it properly.

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And so he makes the humans the villains and he's doing it all the way back from...

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Whether it's Harrison Chase, whether it's at least, whether it's, you know, the towns of Winchang, uh, periods of Mars even.

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You know, you've got Suttech. it's a voice.

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I mean, you know, he's a, for all all intents and purposes, humanoid.

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The mummies are just window dressing.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I think they're effective.

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I think they look really good.

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Those scenes where they attack Mr. Clark and Lucy Cartwright in last week's episode.

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I thought they were really effective.

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Here they work really well kind of thematically.

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Because we get that attack on the school.

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And one of the things that we haven't really properly mentioned is that the spectre of World War one hangs over this.

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And the boys are training in a sort of army cadets unit, like sort of posh expensive schools in Sydney now have army cadets units still, you know, I don't think they have machine guns though.

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They tend not to, no.

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But we had a rifle range at school.

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Yes, but we didn't have a machine gun.

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I mean, you know, we had a, we had a, we shot 6 bullets or something like that.

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Have you shot a gun?

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Yes.

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Yes, we did cadets at school?

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Wow.

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Okay.

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It wasn't compulsory at my school.

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So these are boys who will be being killed in a year's time.

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You know, like it's going to be 1914 and they're going to be fighting in France or whatever.

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I think they had originally intended to set this before World War II, but decided to set it before World War one, partly, I think, because during production, the story got closer and closer to the original novel.

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Oh, it started further away, yeah.

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I think so.

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And Paul says that, you know, he would hand the script to Russell and Russell will say, but what about this bit in the novel?

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I really liked that.

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And so he would put it in?

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And so, you know, there are ways in which it's quite far away from the novel, but there are ways in which it is quite close, particularly the ending, which we'll talk about a little bit later.

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But that scene where the boys are being given the guns and that's when they're really young.

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You know, Hutchison and Baines are clearly adults, played by adults, but the background artists aren't.

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They're all very young.

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Yeah, yeah.

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But what, I don't know whether you're about to go there about the, the way they mow the scarecrows down.

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You see, that is very World War one. the mowing down.

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And they are, you know, and mowing down people as if they are just scarecrows.

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And the boys are crying.

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Like while they're doing it, the boys are crying and even Hutchison, who has been like horrible, like is a sort of horrible person in the 1st episode, is shaken as well.

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So you see these shots of boys with tears in their eyes gunning people down.

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Isn't there to be a pilgrim?

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Song playing over the top of that?

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, and again, that's, you know, World War one is big European Christian empires killing 1000000s of each other's citizens, you know, like the Christianity can't be kind of separated from it, I think.

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It's interesting in that whole sequence that the doctor, sorry, John Smith doesn't appear to fire a gun.

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Yeah.

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And he puts the gun down.

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I think it's more explicit in the novel again where he doesn't shoot, but I don't think we could have tolerated seeing the doctor gunning people down.

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No.

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But the thing about the World War one thing, I mean, I can understand because no one in 1913 or even in April 1914 would have had any idea in terms of the people in charge, quote unquote, would have had any idea that there was about to be war.

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It was such a weird, stupid, peculiar series of events and treaties activating and all this kind of other nonsense that got them into it.

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Whereas I think if it was 1938, say, we would have known it was something.

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Because everyone's got that sense there is war coming, there is war coming because this is all going on in Europe.

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So I think it can work that they're gunning down all these scarecrows and that's kind of a premonition of World War I without them all thinking, a war is coming, war is coming because no one thought that.

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Well, Baines thinks it though.

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And so he sees himself as sort of, you know, prefiguring World War one in that scene by sending his soldiers to to be shot down by children whom he knows will be fighting.

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But that's just because he knows the future.

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Yeah, because he's, you know, a space guy or whatever.

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And, you know, his reason for knowing about the war is sort of fairly thin, but it does sort of need to be there.

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And the story is very positive about World War one.

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I think in a sense.

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Not positive about World War I in the sense that it was a good thing and let's have more of them.

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But the only person who expresses reservations about the war isn't the doctor, it's Baines.

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Do you remember when he dresses down the headmaster and says, you know, what are they going to think of you when you've taught them to be in a war like this, what will they think of the man who taught them this was glorious as they're all being gunned down?

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And giving that, that idea that the 1st World War is in some sense sort of futile or pointless or some horrible cheat that sort of perpetrated on the populations, the unwitting populations of all of these countries, that gets given to baits and no one else expresses that.

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For everyone else, we imagine that they see this as fighting the king's enemies.

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And certainly when the king and country.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And that's how that scene with the scarecrows is couched.

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It's couched in those terms.

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They speak about fighting the king's enemies and defending his properties and stuff when they're fighting off the scarecrows.

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Joan, of course, knows has read the doctor's diary and John Smith's diary, I should say, and he references 1914 and what is to come.

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So she's got in her talk with the doctor.

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She knows that it's wrong for the boys to fight or John Smith knows.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And she would like to think that John Smith thinks that too.

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Even though last week, she very nearly puts an end to the relationship, I think, when she sees him training the boys to shoot.

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It's just after John Smith says to Hutchison that he can beat Latimer.

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Yeah.

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And she kind of walks away and says, look, I was remembering my husband who died.

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And so she is the one, I guess, expressing reservations, but everyone else thinks war is really quite glorious at this point.

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Make a man of you.

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Yeah.

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Well, I wish they'd make a man of Latimer, because he does resolve the cliffhanger resolution with opening the watch, and that gives Martha the opportunity to seize the gun and take control of that situation.

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It has to be Martha that doesn't.

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You can't have the John Smith, the human John Smith, resolve the Cliffhanger.

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No, no.

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Because that's the point of the Cliffhanger.

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Yeah, yeah.

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But it's another reason why she's so good in these episodes.

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She's got so many great moments and her Sass comes back in this episode.

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Like in her bits of dialogue, like, God, you're rubbish as a human.

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I've got that written down here too.

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And then and then with Nurse Redfern, when she doesn't believe that she's training to be a doctor and she goes, oh, you think?

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Like, I just love the fact that she's standing up.

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In fact, those are my favourite sort of Martha Lyon readings, I think, where she's just a little bit kind of sassy and naughty.

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Like she tends to be quite a good girl.

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But every so often she hits back with a zinger and I think Freeman plays that really well.

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It's something in my rewatch that, you know, she's under control most of the time she's handling situation, but every so often she lets that little bit of a fire out.

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I really, really love it.

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And it's why she's my MVP for these episodes.

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And of course, later on, in this episode, you know, is the doctor sort of, I keep saying the doctor.

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But as John Smith keeps saying, like putting it down, what exactly do you do for him?

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And she has to justify that.

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And she says, he's everything to me and I love him to bits, but he won't even look at me.

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That moment is glorious.

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Well, in fact, I quite like a bit of dialogue saying, I really hope that he doesn't remember this because she's sort of genre aware to some degree.

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Yes, yes.

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And it turns out he does remember it, and they do have an awkward moment discussing it at the end, which is kind of funny.

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That's kind of quite cute.

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We did touch a little bit in last week's episode about Harry Lloyd's performances, Baines.

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It is so good when he becomes possessed as son of mine or reanimated or whatever he is, but it's aided by the direction by the shot choices by the choice of lens, the way when they're doing the sniffing thing.

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And it's really fast and sharp and it cuts to this.

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I don't know whether it's a fish eye type lens almost, but it's really, it's from the side and it accentuates the shape of his face in a way to make it look, because he's quite attractive, right?

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He's a very attractive bloke, but they kind of defort, almost deform the shape of his face, to make it like unnatural, that, you know, this is not Baines anymore.

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This is not a human, this is an animated corpse.

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He's in the Merlin, isn't he?

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Isn't he a regular in Merlin?

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Well, he's No, he's in the 1st in a 1st season of Game of Thrones is Janeris's brother and he meets a terrible fate there.

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Because I remember, but again, upperclass twit in the same way.

199
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But he's not like that in real life, actually.

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I think we had to eat it, I was reading.

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But he doesn't look like that.

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Do you know what I mean?

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He looks much more relaxed.

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He was sort of bearded and stuff in the confidential, possibly.

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And I think he was...

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Everyone's bearded now.

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Yeah, well.

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No, but I think he was in a regular kind of genre program and did seem to be a little bit more relaxed.

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Not like that at all.

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But the performance is really, really fun.

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And he's adopted all that sort of shouty military crap from the headmaster. from his teachers and stuff.

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And so he comes back and brings that back to them.

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I'm only surprised that he hasn't done more, like that I can remember, like in terms of film and that sort of thing.

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Like it's now been 11, 12 years.

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I'm really surprised.

216
00:15:26.220 --> 00:15:38.820
And it's a shame that in Game of Thrones, he gets killed because in some respects, if he hadn't if that character hadn't have been killed a few episodes into the 1st season of Game of Thrones, he probably would have gone on to great and glorious things.

217
00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:42.720
As being catapulted from Game of Thrones, like it's done for so many of the others.

218
00:15:42.779 --> 00:15:49.620
Yeah, I don't know why I'm not remembering what he's been in because I just kind of think he has been in things, but I've just sort of missed them.

219
00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:51.120
But there is a glorious shot.

220
00:15:51.179 --> 00:15:53.399
I don't know if it's him and mother of mine.

221
00:15:53.460 --> 00:15:57.000
It's a high shot, like, taken from the school or somewhere and they're standing.

222
00:15:57.000 --> 00:15:58.379
And it doesn't look like him.

223
00:15:58.440 --> 00:15:59.399
It literally does.

224
00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:05.940
I thought this is a stand-in actor and I had to pause the thing and it is him, but just the way it's totally framed.

225
00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:06.840
He's so alien.

226
00:16:06.899 --> 00:16:07.799
He is so good.

227
00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:10.379
But she, I also think Jenny is also great.

228
00:16:10.379 --> 00:16:13.860
And there's a reason why those 2 are the central figures.

229
00:16:13.919 --> 00:16:17.820
I think they cut around that little girl a bit and their father's competent.

230
00:16:17.879 --> 00:16:29.399
But if I can say too, they all, but particularly, veins and Jenny too, they managed to chew the scenery without eating the entire thing.

231
00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:31.860
There is a there is a...

232
00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:40.679
No, no, but that's the glory, the best Doctor Who villains, the Harrison Chases, and like how I keep coming back to my note, they are, it is a camp performance.

233
00:16:40.740 --> 00:16:50.519
It's over the top, but it works in the context and there's a very, very, very fine line that has to be walked to make it work and to not make it look like it's hammy.

234
00:16:50.580 --> 00:16:59.039
And I think it's achieved by a director who maybe knows when to say just dial it back a fraction there, darling, or something.

235
00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:03.720
And also using the shots and editing in a way so that it doesn't become dominant.

236
00:17:03.779 --> 00:17:07.380
You know, otherwise it does look like Paul Darrow in Timelash. think they do a great job.

237
00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:12.960
I think they all all of them do, but obviously they concentrate on the 2 strongest ones.

238
00:17:13.019 --> 00:17:22.319
They're really, really terrific and absolutely kind of off-putting because it's an off-putting performance. like quite a deliberately of putting performance.

239
00:17:22.380 --> 00:17:30.180
The director is, of course, Charles Palmer, who is the son of Doctor Who alumnus Jeffrey Palmer.

240
00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:33.599
He'll be turning up in one of his son's episodes.

241
00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:34.920
Very, very soon.

242
00:17:34.980 --> 00:17:42.420
Yeah, so he directs Voyage of the Damned, where Jeffrey Palmer drives the Titanic into an iceberg or...

243
00:17:42.420 --> 00:17:51.119
But he'd obviously been in the in the Doctor Who in the 70s, sort of quite a lot and was a sort of terribly famous sitcom accurate.

244
00:17:51.180 --> 00:17:52.079
Yes, wonderful.

245
00:17:52.140 --> 00:17:54.059
Yeah, so Charles Palmer is his son.

246
00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:55.019
And I think he's extremely good.

247
00:17:55.079 --> 00:17:56.279
Like I think he does a great job.

248
00:17:56.339 --> 00:18:07.380
I like the choice of giving the family of blood, no visible alien characteristics, but giving them a sort of a green colour because the colour of aliens is green.

249
00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:11.819
And so whenever they talk to one another telepathically, we just get a green line on their face.

250
00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:13.799
And it's just a practical light.

251
00:18:13.859 --> 00:18:16.019
It's not a post-production effect or anything.

252
00:18:16.140 --> 00:18:17.220
I'd forgotten all of that.

253
00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:21.180
It's one of my, my, my mental black hats.

254
00:18:21.240 --> 00:18:25.200
But no, honestly, I'd forgotten that that was the way in which they communicated.

255
00:18:25.259 --> 00:18:27.299
I do have to say one thing at this point.

256
00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:31.680
We've been praising this episode and we'll praise it the ending and we'll praise.

257
00:18:31.740 --> 00:18:38.460
I think I think you love the music, but I have to say this is the 1st episode of New Who that I actually was disappointed in.

258
00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:41.579
I came in with an expectation, the first.

259
00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:44.220
I came in with an expectation of what I was going to get.

260
00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:52.859
And I guess I've had various expectations of other episodes, some very low and they've lived up to those expectations.

261
00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:58.380
But with this one, I came in thinking, yeah, I'm going, this is going to be knocking it out at the ballpark all throughout the episode.

262
00:18:58.920 --> 00:19:09.000
And about, I don't know, 10 minutes in, I was just beginning to lose hope from 2 perspectives.

263
00:19:09.059 --> 00:19:21.539
One was John Smith and him going on and on and on about why can't I stay and I just wanted it to stop and the other one was Latimer with the watch.

264
00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:24.599
How many times can you open that thing or run away to a different location?

265
00:19:24.660 --> 00:19:32.220
And I just found that personally, I just thought the episode was marking time for 10 minutes, 15 minutes, I'm going, I just want this thing resolved.

266
00:19:32.279 --> 00:19:35.880
I know that sounds slack because I actually like, I think this is a good episode.

267
00:19:35.940 --> 00:19:38.640
I actually enjoy overall this episode in the last 10 minutes.

268
00:19:38.700 --> 00:19:39.720
I think are extraordinary.

269
00:19:39.779 --> 00:19:44.160
But I did have a problem in this middle part of the episode.

270
00:19:44.220 --> 00:19:50.819
I certainly think that Latimer keeping the watch is just spinning the episode out.

271
00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:55.259
You know, when he finally surrenders the watch.

272
00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:59.039
And I think he's even asked why didn't you do it before?

273
00:19:59.099 --> 00:20:02.759
And he says, oh, you know, the watch told me, the watch told me.

274
00:20:02.819 --> 00:20:06.299
And that does seem to be kind of artificially delaying things a bit.

275
00:20:06.359 --> 00:20:16.200
And I do think that scene where Nurse Redford takes them to that house and then they just sit around talking for a very, very long time.

276
00:20:16.259 --> 00:20:19.559
Like, I think that starts to wear out its welcome a little bit.

277
00:20:19.619 --> 00:20:21.900
I do think that scene is really good.

278
00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:27.720
I love the idea that it was little Lucy Cartwright's house and her family have all been murdered.

279
00:20:27.779 --> 00:20:28.680
I have a little her father.

280
00:20:28.740 --> 00:20:33.119
Yes, that's it's very nicely done and very subtle and it's that thing of that there are consequences.

281
00:20:33.180 --> 00:20:35.400
I'm sorry, but I've forgotten.

282
00:20:35.460 --> 00:20:36.839
I didn't even remember.

283
00:20:36.900 --> 00:20:38.160
I just thought this little girl's dead.

284
00:20:38.220 --> 00:20:39.240
Her family are going to be devastated.

285
00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:41.279
And then they said, 0 no, she's actually murdered them all.

286
00:20:41.339 --> 00:20:44.700
And I'm just there going, well, that's something new I discovered.

287
00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:46.319
And the teapot's ice stone cold.

288
00:20:46.440 --> 00:20:47.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

289
00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:50.759
It's quite gruesome, actually, in a nice underplay sort of way.

290
00:20:50.819 --> 00:20:51.960
It's very well known.

291
00:20:52.019 --> 00:20:59.819
And thanks to Jessica Hines, I think, because she's the one who properly sells it because the idea is that she has already worked out that this has happened.

292
00:20:59.880 --> 00:21:09.299
She goes to that house because she knows it will be deserted because she knows that daughter of mine will have killed Lucy Cartwright's entire family.

293
00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:10.740
And he's unlikely to return there.

294
00:21:10.859 --> 00:21:15.359
And I think she says, you know, how quickly we come to accept these things or something like that.

295
00:21:15.420 --> 00:21:17.339
And that will pay off.

296
00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:25.019
And I think it matters that so much of the episode takes place there because it's just a reminder of what has happened.

297
00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:33.119
And at the end of the episode where Jones gets to speak to the doctor himself, it really pays off.

298
00:21:33.180 --> 00:21:34.380
It does.

299
00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:35.940
And in fact, it's interesting.

300
00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:42.000
She's, well, because one imagines she has an apartment at the school, so she hasn't have a house and yeah, so she's sort of sitting in that house.

301
00:21:42.059 --> 00:21:51.359
It's nice because it adds a different, extra location and I think that it's nice when you get that, you know, the new location appears in, you know, episode 3 or something and takes you through the end.

302
00:21:51.420 --> 00:21:59.279
It's like the new home base and it's somewhere where you think the characters can feel safe when the world around them is totally going to hell.

303
00:22:05.339 --> 00:22:10.079
If I can just sort of come to, and Todd, you touched on it with Tenant's performances, John Smith.

304
00:22:10.140 --> 00:22:19.859
He starts last week's episode with a bit of 1913 acting in a pretty minor tokenistic way.

305
00:22:19.859 --> 00:22:28.740
And I think, especially during the 2nd episode, it does descend into it just being the normal David Tennant performance of the doctor.

306
00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:31.319
I think it's...

307
00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:32.819
Now, there could be reasons for this.

308
00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:35.400
There's artistic choices and they're all valid and so on.

309
00:22:35.460 --> 00:22:45.720
But it was when I was watching the 2nd episode that I felt that there was a missed opportunity for both the program and for tenant himself as an actor.

310
00:22:45.779 --> 00:22:50.460
When you consider Patrick Trouton's performance as salamander in enemy of the world.

311
00:22:50.519 --> 00:22:58.619
Now, I know salamander is actually a different character, whereas, you know, this is actually supposed to just be, you know, a watered down version of the doctor.

312
00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:18.059
But this could have been a beautiful way for him to get rid of the stupid gelled hair and have a very kind of slick, 1913 Edwardian, early Georgian sort of hairstyle for him to speak much more poshly than he does and much more kind of middle, in that very middle class version of posh, particularly in the sort of the early 20th century.

313
00:23:18.119 --> 00:23:23.819
And also for his character at that moment where they've got to decide, are we going to open the watch, are we not?

314
00:23:23.880 --> 00:23:30.119
You got to do this, and she's the one who has to convince him, and I know that's part of it, that she's the one being strong.

315
00:23:30.180 --> 00:23:36.059
But surely the human John Smith would be very stoic and I've got to do this for kicking country.

316
00:23:36.119 --> 00:23:39.960
I've got to sacrifice myself rather than going to pieces a little bit.

317
00:23:40.019 --> 00:23:47.640
I don't think I agree with you about Tennant's performance, but I do agree with you about, you know, like about that choice.

318
00:23:47.700 --> 00:23:55.619
Like, I think Tenet really, really differentiates John Smith from his normal performance as the doctor.

319
00:23:55.680 --> 00:24:03.240
And there's that moment, remember, when he's holding the watch, and then he tells Tim why it is that he's got precognition.

320
00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:04.980
And, oh my god, the doctor's back.

321
00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:09.900
And we haven't really seen Tenant do that in that outfit at all.

322
00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:15.660
And Tenant's outfit is a modified version of his normal outfit with same colour scheme.

323
00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:16.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

324
00:24:16.559 --> 00:24:25.980
Like the tie looks like it's a version of one of his normal ties that's kind of been chopped up and turned into a bow tie in this sort of final episode.

325
00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:37.259
So I think he does maintain a big distinction between the 2 characters, but I don't like the muleing, crying performance that John Smith does.

326
00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:42.720
And I do think a bit more bravery would have been, or anger. perhaps.

327
00:24:42.779 --> 00:24:46.319
You know, if it had been anger, but it's blubbing.

328
00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:48.180
And I just... right.

329
00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:52.740
And I just find myself with very little sympathy for it, particularly as it goes on and on.

330
00:24:52.799 --> 00:25:05.460
And, you know, we're getting to the point where, you know, they're raining down destruction on the entire village where there's, you know, space bombs raining down everywhere and he's still crying about it.

331
00:25:05.460 --> 00:25:13.619
Because he should be, the distilled nature of who the doctor is, even if he's been turned into a human should be about what's the right thing to do.

332
00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:14.940
I will sacrifice myself.

333
00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:15.779
He, you know, he does it.

334
00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:18.000
The David Tennant doctor at the end of his reign does that.

335
00:25:18.059 --> 00:25:19.140
He sacrificed himself.

336
00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:23.700
The doctor's always sacrificing himself at the end mainly when it comes to regenerations and stuff.

337
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:27.839
It's a shame that Joan has to convince him that that's the right thing to do.

338
00:25:27.900 --> 00:25:30.779
I think that anger would have been appropriate as well.

339
00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:42.359
But I guess what I do like is that Jones anger only really, really properly becomes apparent when she's faced with the doctor at the end.

340
00:25:42.420 --> 00:25:45.000
And I think that's so amazing.

341
00:25:45.059 --> 00:25:51.599
The bit where she says, would anyone have died if you just hadn't decided to come here on a whim?

342
00:25:51.660 --> 00:25:59.579
And that is, I think, perhaps the only time in the program, one of the few times in the program, certainly, where they use those sorts of lines, and it's true.

343
00:25:59.640 --> 00:26:04.200
Because the doctor has actually come to this village to escape, to hide, right?

344
00:26:04.259 --> 00:26:10.380
He's not because the alien menaces dragged him there or he happens to have arrived there and discovered the alien menace.

345
00:26:10.440 --> 00:26:12.359
He has brought the alien menace to this place.

346
00:26:12.420 --> 00:26:18.059
Often when it's, you know, like the doctor turns up and, you know, it's a thing in the program, isn't it?

347
00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:21.420
The doctor's dangerous, the doctor turns up and... it's so overdone and I hate it.

348
00:26:21.539 --> 00:26:23.160
And it's never his fault, really, or whatever.

349
00:26:23.220 --> 00:26:26.339
But here, every single death.

350
00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:31.440
Like, you know, we've spent so much time in a house where the entire family's dead, and that's the doctor's fault.

351
00:26:31.500 --> 00:26:33.539
And she just says, go away.

352
00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:37.500
You know, like she's furious with him and doesn't overplay it at all.

353
00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:39.000
No, but it's just get out.

354
00:26:39.059 --> 00:26:46.259
You know, like I'm not going to travel with you because you are a monster who put me through this and put everyone else through it.

355
00:26:46.920 --> 00:26:52.259
The fact that the doctor even asked her to travel with me, I think, is clueless.

356
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:54.720
Yeah, absolutely clue. and absolutely galling.

357
00:26:54.779 --> 00:26:56.400
And, you know, and she says that's not fair.

358
00:26:56.700 --> 00:26:57.240
Yes.

359
00:26:57.299 --> 00:26:59.640
She's already said she can't bear to look at it.

360
00:26:59.819 --> 00:27:04.799
Jessica Hines' performance in this is just sublime.

361
00:27:04.859 --> 00:27:06.539
She is amazing.

362
00:27:06.599 --> 00:27:17.279
The characterisation in the way that it's written as well and directed, but without her having that inner strength and that insight throughout all these episodes.

363
00:27:17.400 --> 00:27:22.019
It's a mark of a very good actor because what she's done is she's looked at the script.

364
00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:31.559
She's looked at the reasons why this character is saying the words that they are and she's she's got the thought process of what is this character thinking at this time and you can see it written on her face.

365
00:27:42.359 --> 00:27:46.140
So I was complaining about the middle part of the episode.

366
00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:48.779
We're now talking about the back end of the episode.

367
00:27:48.839 --> 00:27:54.240
All these wonderful scenes with Martha with Nurse Redfern.

368
00:27:54.299 --> 00:27:59.519
There's also just the brilliant montage of the life that could have been.

369
00:27:59.579 --> 00:28:07.500
That was the cheat that I was talking about because that's in the next time trailer as if the doctor is going to have the rest of his days.

370
00:28:07.559 --> 00:28:08.220
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

371
00:28:08.279 --> 00:28:09.000
Oh, that's all right.

372
00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:09.839
But I love that.

373
00:28:09.900 --> 00:28:13.440
I adore that sequence and it pulls at your heartstrings.

374
00:28:13.500 --> 00:28:15.059
And notice that they both see it.

375
00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:16.859
Like she sees it too.

376
00:28:16.920 --> 00:28:19.740
So she sees what both of them are giving up.

377
00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:28.980
Do you feel that they almost experience an entire life in those few seconds.

378
00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:29.880
It's the inner light.

379
00:28:29.940 --> 00:28:31.559
It's, yes, the inner light, exactly.

380
00:28:31.619 --> 00:28:35.519
And like 50, 60 years pass in the blink of an eye.

381
00:28:35.579 --> 00:28:37.799
Or do you think it's just it's just flashes?

382
00:28:37.859 --> 00:28:39.660
I think we see what they see.

383
00:28:39.779 --> 00:28:45.779
Because if they get to experience that life, then having it taken away from them doesn't happen.

384
00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:57.000
You know, the thing is heartbreaking because they both know what they could have and they don't get it, you know, and that's the doctor's fault.

385
00:28:57.059 --> 00:28:59.640
That's entirely the doctor's fault that that doesn't happen.

386
00:28:59.700 --> 00:29:04.799
So I think if they got it in some kind of science fiction sense, that would kind of undermine that a bit.

387
00:29:04.859 --> 00:29:06.299
I think it's terribly good.

388
00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:13.740
It's well known that John Smith's final words, you know, is everyone okay?

389
00:29:13.859 --> 00:29:24.059
or his sort of near final words, based on something that Paul's father once said, when he was ill, the 1st thing, you know, that he says is everyone okay?

390
00:29:24.119 --> 00:29:26.460
And so he remembers that.

391
00:29:26.519 --> 00:29:32.460
There's some shocking, shockingly insightful things about grief, I think, in the novel.

392
00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:33.299
Yeah.

393
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:35.099
And we'll get back to that later.

394
00:29:35.160 --> 00:29:45.660
But I do think that it is the 1st hint of some horrifying developments to come with the ageing makeup.

395
00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:46.980
Oh, at the end of the season.

396
00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:48.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

397
00:29:48.660 --> 00:29:51.240
Oh, that, I think the ageing makeup here is okay.

398
00:29:51.299 --> 00:29:56.039
Well, yeah, I watched it on Blu-ray on a 60 inch television last night.

399
00:29:56.339 --> 00:29:59.099
It didn't really hold up all that well.

400
00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:03.539
But it is there quite briefly, I think, so we'll give it a pass.

401
00:30:03.660 --> 00:30:07.200
But it's going to be kind of the foam machine.

402
00:30:07.259 --> 00:30:11.819
The BBC foam machine of series three.

403
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:14.460
It's going to get one series too.

404
00:30:14.519 --> 00:30:15.839
It's gonna get more horrific.

405
00:30:17.640 --> 00:30:25.559
So the doctor goes to the spaceship, pretending to be John Smith and fumbles around and accidentally pushes a lot of different buttons.

406
00:30:25.559 --> 00:30:30.539
And then by doing that, the spaceship's going to blow up.

407
00:30:30.599 --> 00:30:37.680
And so the family of mine become utterly useless at that and just have to run outside and let their spaceship blow up.

408
00:30:37.740 --> 00:30:53.160
And then the doctor can just then become the most powerful being in the universe and put people in unbreakable chains, put them in the advent horizon of a collapsing galaxy, trapping one of them inside a mirror and suspending son of mine in time in the fields of England.

409
00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:57.480
If he's that powerful, why doesn't he just do this all the time to every single villain?

410
00:30:57.539 --> 00:31:01.920
I think that that scene is very strange.

411
00:31:01.980 --> 00:31:03.420
I think it's extremely good.

412
00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:06.359
You say the scene where he presses the buttons or the aftermath.

413
00:31:06.420 --> 00:31:07.200
So the aftermath.

414
00:31:07.259 --> 00:31:09.720
So the scene where he presses the buttons, I think that that is wonderful.

415
00:31:09.779 --> 00:31:16.980
Yeah, and it gives Tenet the chance to do some, you know, fun acting and you're relieved, I think.

416
00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:20.700
Whatever you think about David Tennant's normal performance is the doctor.

417
00:31:20.759 --> 00:31:28.559
You do feel relieved when the doctor's back and he is sort of funny and wonderful and that line.

418
00:31:28.619 --> 00:31:32.519
You shouldn't have let me press all those buttons, you know, when he's fallen on a bunch of buttons.

419
00:31:32.579 --> 00:31:34.380
I think that works really well.

420
00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:45.660
But then after that, that scene where you get a voiceover from Baines himself from Son of Mine explaining to us what ended up happening to them.

421
00:31:45.720 --> 00:31:51.059
But I don't know exactly why it's there.

422
00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:57.839
And I think it exposes a kind of problem with the whole setup.

423
00:31:57.900 --> 00:31:59.339
And we've talked about this before.

424
00:31:59.400 --> 00:32:04.440
And we'll talk about it next week because it's an important feature of next week's episode.

425
00:32:04.500 --> 00:32:06.779
The family of blood.

426
00:32:06.839 --> 00:32:12.720
Have the characteristics they have because Paul Cornell wants to tell this story.

427
00:32:12.900 --> 00:32:19.319
And so the fact that they like Mayflies, that they'll just die in a few months, 3 months.

428
00:32:19.380 --> 00:32:19.920
Yeah, yeah.

429
00:32:19.920 --> 00:32:24.299
I've got it written down here is just there to make this plot work.

430
00:32:24.359 --> 00:32:36.900
We have the doctor pursued by monsters who haven't seen him for some reason and who he just needs to prevent them from catching up with him for sort of 3 months and then...

431
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:38.579
Did they die after 3 months?

432
00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:39.599
How do they build a spaceship?

433
00:32:39.660 --> 00:32:41.099
Is it somebody else's spaceship?

434
00:32:41.160 --> 00:32:43.319
I assume they've nicked the spaceship or something.

435
00:32:43.380 --> 00:32:44.099
Right.

436
00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:47.519
And then when they inhabit somebody, do they last for 3 months or is it the lifespan of that person?

437
00:32:47.579 --> 00:32:49.259
No, it's the lifespan of that.

438
00:32:49.319 --> 00:32:58.859
I think the 3 months is the lifespan of their of their lifecycle, they're gaseous, whatever it is, the green glowiness, whatever it is, but look, I get what you're saying.

439
00:32:58.980 --> 00:33:06.299
And you did sort of say that when we were doing girl in the fireplace, that the universe or the world is a contrivance, just so you can tell the story that wants to be told.

440
00:33:06.359 --> 00:33:07.079
Correct.

441
00:33:07.079 --> 00:33:13.140
I don't think that that's a sort of fair thing because that's exactly what they're, we're paying them.

442
00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:19.259
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. is to tell us these stories and the whole of Doctor Who is set up so that these stories can be told.

443
00:33:19.619 --> 00:33:21.839
Game of Thrones, anything we watch.

444
00:33:21.960 --> 00:33:36.839
But there's a sort of fridge logic to this, you know, like it's only after the episode's over and then you're at the fridge getting something and you think, wait, how do these people even exist properly if they only have a 3 month lifespan or something like that?

445
00:33:36.900 --> 00:33:40.019
Like, I'm happy that they get to tell this story.

446
00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:41.279
Well, and you have to.

447
00:33:41.339 --> 00:33:42.720
That's the thing.

448
00:33:42.779 --> 00:33:48.779
It's not the premise of human nature, the novel where...

449
00:33:48.839 --> 00:33:53.099
No, what they have is they create families that are just 8 people.

450
00:33:53.160 --> 00:33:56.640
There's 8 of them instead of 4 in this.

451
00:33:56.700 --> 00:34:06.359
And if they can assimilate a time lord, then each of them can regenerate and create their own families and stuff and they'll eventually take over the entire world.

452
00:34:06.359 --> 00:34:12.780
And the doctor doesn't, I think, necessarily know that they're chasing him, although I might be wrong about that.

453
00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:30.659
But here, you know, they have to set up a fairly fairly special and complex reason why he chooses to, you know, go through the transformation arch and I think that's the weakest, the weakest part of it is why he actually needs to make this extraordinary decision in the 1st place.

454
00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:31.739
But I buy that.

455
00:34:31.800 --> 00:34:34.139
That for me is the problem if there is a problem.

456
00:34:34.199 --> 00:34:40.619
Yeah, I mean, I'll come, okay, if I can compare this to an offline discussion we've had about gridlock.

457
00:34:40.679 --> 00:34:44.760
Why is this a kind of contrivance so that we can tell the story we want to tell?

458
00:34:44.820 --> 00:34:49.139
But being caught in a traffic jam for 28 years or whatever it is in gridlock, why is that not a contrived?

459
00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:50.219
Oh, no, I think they both are.

460
00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:54.719
And I think that I think that, like, I'm not saying that those contrivances are things that shouldn't happen.

461
00:34:54.780 --> 00:34:55.440
Right.

462
00:34:55.440 --> 00:35:07.320
And I do think that whatever it takes to tell the Doctor Who as Superman 2 story, whatever it takes, I'm happy for us to just go through that.

463
00:35:07.380 --> 00:35:10.800
But it is sort of it's a bit thin, I think.

464
00:35:10.860 --> 00:35:16.440
Well, it doesn't look to need to have these people live forever in these situations.

465
00:35:16.500 --> 00:35:20.159
Can't they just live out there, put them somewhere.

466
00:35:20.219 --> 00:35:28.739
Well, I mean, but he could just, if he took them to the planet Kolka Kron, you know, just to live out their last month, like a tractator or something.

467
00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:29.579
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

468
00:35:29.579 --> 00:35:40.920
You know, then, like that's a thing he could have done and it would have been sort of less interesting and obviously less poetic and less effective, but why does he make them live forever?

469
00:35:40.980 --> 00:35:42.659
Okay, that's the thing.

470
00:35:42.659 --> 00:35:48.300
Why can't we just have them live out their lives trapped in those things for the punishment for what they've done and that's enough.

471
00:35:48.360 --> 00:35:51.420
They're large as the humans that they've taken.

472
00:35:51.480 --> 00:35:54.719
Yeah, so the doctor is initially we discover being kind.

473
00:35:54.780 --> 00:36:03.300
That's why he became human because his only way of dealing with them was to make them immortal...

474
00:36:03.420 --> 00:36:09.659
No, I think my interpretation, and this is from not me trying to retcon explain it all away.

475
00:36:09.719 --> 00:36:29.579
This is just my impression, is that these are a form of immortal being, but they only have existence in our universe or existence as a sort of a sentient being for very short stretches of time, and then maybe 1000000s of years might go past, and then they'll kind of coalesce again and be able to have 3 months of life.

476
00:36:29.639 --> 00:36:35.159
Kind of like, you know, those frogs that live at the bottom of dry creek beds in the desert.

477
00:36:35.159 --> 00:36:38.519
And they can hibernate there without water for like 3 or 4 years.

478
00:36:38.579 --> 00:36:41.699
And then there's a shower of rain and the pond fills up.

479
00:36:41.699 --> 00:36:50.159
And then they go through an entire lifecycle where they breed and they have babies and then they all rot and die in the drying creek bed and then their babies come back to life.

480
00:36:50.219 --> 00:36:52.920
The eggs hatch in 4 or 5 years time when the next rain comes.

481
00:36:53.039 --> 00:37:05.159
I see them as that sort of entity where they're not necessarily having children, but they are only having these moments, these flashes of existence and they are trapped in a sort of immortality.

482
00:37:05.219 --> 00:37:07.679
So I don't think the doctors are making them live forever at the end.

483
00:37:07.739 --> 00:37:15.239
I think he's dealing with the fact that he doesn't want them to then come back again in another herald meet 1000s of years time minions of years time.

484
00:37:15.300 --> 00:37:16.380
So they already live forever.

485
00:37:16.440 --> 00:37:17.340
They already live forever.

486
00:37:17.460 --> 00:37:20.699
And this way to stop them from doing bad things, they are then trapped.

487
00:37:20.820 --> 00:37:23.760
Yeah, they already live forever but they can't have more than a few months at a time.

488
00:37:23.820 --> 00:37:26.159
But except that they were going to die.

489
00:37:26.280 --> 00:37:30.900
They were going to die in another month and then the doctor could have gone off and just said that the threat was over.

490
00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:32.219
I don't think they said die.

491
00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:35.099
I think they said that they will cease to be or cease to.

492
00:37:35.159 --> 00:37:36.480
Yeah, but the threat goes away at that.

493
00:37:36.539 --> 00:37:38.760
Then the doctor can just go off.

494
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:39.179
Yeah.

495
00:37:39.239 --> 00:37:40.739
But that still works with my theory.

496
00:37:40.860 --> 00:37:53.460
Yeah, I guess the fact that the episode itself just says that they're going to stop and the doctor just has to wait out the end of their lives.

497
00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:55.619
And that's the solution.

498
00:37:56.039 --> 00:38:01.500
Like, I don't know why that still doesn't work once the doctor's the doctor again.

499
00:38:01.559 --> 00:38:03.599
Like if he he's blown up their spaceship.

500
00:38:03.659 --> 00:38:04.500
They can't go anywhere.

501
00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:06.539
They're on the planet Golcocron with the gravis.

502
00:38:06.599 --> 00:38:08.820
You think they should just keel over?

503
00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:10.800
They die in a few months time.

504
00:38:10.860 --> 00:38:16.079
And so he seems to be imposing immortality on them.

505
00:38:16.139 --> 00:38:21.539
And it seems to be a disproportionate reaction. like a disproportionate response.

506
00:38:21.659 --> 00:38:32.460
And I don't know why exactly Paul wants to make the doctor so vengeful and so godlike.

507
00:38:32.519 --> 00:38:36.480
And I do think that Russell kind of wants to do this as well.

508
00:38:36.539 --> 00:38:43.559
Like that the new series seeks to problematize the doctor in various ways and different showrunners have different ways of doing it.

509
00:38:43.619 --> 00:38:47.099
But this thing where he's a kind of vengeful monster.

510
00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:51.840
A little bit like the way that Matt Smith's doctors described in the Pandorica opens as well.

511
00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:54.840
He'll drop out of the sky and tear down your world.

512
00:38:54.900 --> 00:39:01.860
See, does this tie in with like what Donner experienced in the Christmas episode where he gets rid of all of the...

513
00:39:01.860 --> 00:39:02.280
Yeah, yeah.

514
00:39:02.280 --> 00:39:06.300
Brachnos's children, where he goes too far.

515
00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:13.980
Like, he's got all, he actually has all this power and there are moments where he makes the wrong decision.

516
00:39:13.980 --> 00:39:16.320
Which the companion holds him back.

517
00:39:16.380 --> 00:39:16.920
Yeah, yeah.

518
00:39:16.980 --> 00:39:22.320
Is this trying to demonstrate this to us when having a discussion about it?

519
00:39:22.380 --> 00:39:23.699
Yeah, I guess that's it.

520
00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:26.219
I guess I guess that is the same thing, isn't it?

521
00:39:26.280 --> 00:39:31.440
But it does seem, it does seem really extraordinary, like really, really quite strange.

522
00:39:31.500 --> 00:39:38.039
And I certainly love the scenes and I love how that voiceover is delivered and I love how it's written.

523
00:39:38.039 --> 00:39:40.860
And, you know, like he is talking to the audience.

524
00:39:40.920 --> 00:39:42.420
There's no other way of interpreting it.

525
00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:51.239
You know, he tells you what happens when you look in a mirror and you see a movement behind you that's his sister.

526
00:39:51.300 --> 00:39:52.920
And I think all of that's great.

527
00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:58.679
And there's obviously a reference to Warriors Gate in there with a dwarf star alloy and all of that sort of stuff.

528
00:39:58.739 --> 00:40:08.400
Like it's um, it's epic and it does make the doctor into a sort of scary godlike figure, but it just, which is very new adventures.

529
00:40:08.460 --> 00:40:10.199
It is very new adventures as well.

530
00:40:10.260 --> 00:40:17.460
It is very new adventures, but it does seem like a fairly disproportionate response to just 4 people with lobster guns.

531
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:18.119
Yes.

532
00:40:18.300 --> 00:40:23.820
No, I'm prepared to acknowledge that because that is the sort of thing that I didn't like about the new adventures.

533
00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:38.760
It's the sort of thing I don't like about the new series when they do stray, they're, like you said, with the Pandora Opens. and the doctor is golden, the doctor is this super powerful being, and also playing up the fact that, oh, the doctor's an alien, therefore he has different morals to us, and therefore, blah, blah, blah.

534
00:40:38.820 --> 00:40:41.579
But for some reason, I can just go with the flow.

535
00:40:41.639 --> 00:40:53.460
In fact, if I'm going to be uncomfortable with one element of it, it is the girl being trapped in the mirror because it's a bit like, I mean, I know that's probably just a poetic way of saying that she's trapped between the dimensions or something like, you know.

536
00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:54.239
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

537
00:40:54.300 --> 00:40:55.019
It's magic.

538
00:40:55.079 --> 00:40:56.099
Doctor Who's full of magic.

539
00:40:56.159 --> 00:40:58.139
Well, that's another reference to Warriors game. one could I?

540
00:40:58.199 --> 00:40:58.920
Yeah, yeah.

541
00:40:58.980 --> 00:41:01.860
I don't like it with a Doctor Who strays too much into magic, though.

542
00:41:01.920 --> 00:41:06.179
I'd rather have a, you know, stupid explanation for why it happens.

543
00:41:06.239 --> 00:41:07.260
Yeah, yeah.

544
00:41:07.260 --> 00:41:10.320
Or I'd rather just have them all killed off in the spaceship.

545
00:41:10.440 --> 00:41:13.619
Didn't you, did you see tear of the zygons in that?

546
00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:27.119
I saw, I know it's completely different in so many ways, but maybe it's just the sort of the dull lighting of the spaceship and everything, the bleeps and the bloops and all the kind of the knobbly bits that he presses, but it's when they're all running out and they're running from the spaceship and it blows up behind them.

547
00:41:27.179 --> 00:41:28.739
I just saw tear of the Zygons.

548
00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:29.760
That's a great observation.

549
00:41:29.820 --> 00:41:33.599
No, actually, I didn't see that, but now that you say it, I can clearly see it.

550
00:41:33.659 --> 00:41:37.139
I think that the design of the spaceship owes something to it, don't you?

551
00:41:37.199 --> 00:41:40.380
Yeah, it's a little bit less rude, but yeah, yes.

552
00:41:40.440 --> 00:41:41.519
Especially the outside.

553
00:41:41.579 --> 00:41:42.840
Yeah.

554
00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:48.960
I had heard that that was a budget saving measure that ended up being more expensive.

555
00:41:49.320 --> 00:41:51.659
It would have been if it was visible.

556
00:41:51.719 --> 00:41:58.079
But there is an invisible dome that the villains hang out in the novel as well.

557
00:41:58.139 --> 00:42:00.119
Oh, he's there, yeah.

558
00:42:03.900 --> 00:42:05.760
The endings?

559
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:07.739
Like after all of this.

560
00:42:07.800 --> 00:42:09.300
Many endings.

561
00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:10.079
Many engines.

562
00:42:10.139 --> 00:42:13.679
No, all the endings rescue this episode for me.

563
00:42:13.739 --> 00:42:14.940
It's all the endings.

564
00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:20.340
The fact that Joan keeps, you can see that she's going to keep the diary.

565
00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:23.940
Yeah, it's a subtle, lovely moment.

566
00:42:24.119 --> 00:42:32.219
I love the doctor and Martha's awkward conversation, but the thank you is so, she's earned that, thank you.

567
00:42:32.280 --> 00:42:33.239
Yeah, 0 yeah.

568
00:42:33.300 --> 00:42:34.619
Above and beyond.

569
00:42:34.679 --> 00:42:48.239
Um, and then when they look to, you'll love this bit to, to Tim, um, so he gets to see the dematerialisation and then we, then, of course, we get the whole war sequence, which has been peppered throughout.

570
00:42:48.239 --> 00:43:00.599
And then the doctor and Martha turning up to what may not be present day, but it might be, you know, 10 years ago or whatever, always brings a tear to my eye with him in the wheelchair there.

571
00:43:00.659 --> 00:43:12.780
Well, that's actually the scene that I was, one of the scenes that I was referring to, which wasn't in Paul's original script, but Russell remembered it from the novel.

572
00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:14.579
And so it's back.

573
00:43:14.639 --> 00:43:16.619
That's exactly how the novel ends.

574
00:43:16.679 --> 00:43:23.639
And, you know, it's absolutely perfect in that you've got age, shall not weary them all of that kind of thing.

575
00:43:23.699 --> 00:43:26.219
You got this very old man who's got to be in his 90s.

576
00:43:26.280 --> 00:43:28.800
It can't possibly be 2007.

577
00:43:29.340 --> 00:43:30.059
It could be 105.

578
00:43:30.239 --> 00:43:30.840
Yeah, I guess.

579
00:43:30.900 --> 00:43:32.820
I reckon it's 1990 something.

580
00:43:32.940 --> 00:43:36.119
I don't think it really matters It doesn't matter.

581
00:43:36.179 --> 00:43:39.000
It's the end of the 20th century.

582
00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:50.280
And we've been through in the last few years, the sort of centenary of World War one and a kind of renewed appreciation.

583
00:43:50.400 --> 00:43:54.300
I think of what people went through.

584
00:43:54.360 --> 00:44:02.639
And I think, you know, there's that British thing where people wear the poppy, you know, more than we do here and certainly sort of... presenters.

585
00:44:02.699 --> 00:44:03.539
Yeah, yeah.

586
00:44:03.599 --> 00:44:07.019
But news presenters and stuff where the poppy politicians and stuff like that.

587
00:44:07.380 --> 00:44:16.139
And I think that that's a pretty good thing to do, but it is, it's odd.

588
00:44:16.260 --> 00:44:26.639
I do think it is slightly odd at the end of a story which has been mostly about gunning down scarecrows and, you know, David Tennant blubbing.

589
00:44:26.699 --> 00:44:32.099
But I guess it adds a sort of proper gravitas to the, to the story.

590
00:44:32.519 --> 00:44:35.219
I think it's a nice little coder.

591
00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:50.639
It doesn't need to be there, but given so much of the, there are so many references to the fact that, you know, what World War one stars next year and all these young boys are going to be, you know, horrifically gunned down and so that's not just a glancing theme.

592
00:44:50.820 --> 00:44:53.699
They keep coming back to it, particularly with Tim.

593
00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:58.199
And I think it's nice to see that Tim's had a rich and full and long live.

594
00:44:58.260 --> 00:45:07.500
I mean, for me, the more annoying bit is the bit in the battle scene when the shell comes down and he dodges it, you know, that for me is the most tedious bit. actually.

595
00:45:07.860 --> 00:45:11.579
Well, because it's just like, oh, do we actually need to do that?

596
00:45:11.639 --> 00:45:16.739
I think we've seen it already in his little flashboard things, these little premonitions.

597
00:45:16.800 --> 00:45:17.699
Doing it again.

598
00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:19.739
It's just like everything has to be tied up with a little boat.

599
00:45:19.800 --> 00:45:23.340
As I said in the last episode, I started rereading the new adventures.

600
00:45:23.340 --> 00:45:38.340
And at the end of time, when Revelation by Paul Cornell, which seemed very cool at the time, that he spends this last section of the book where he goes back and puts in place all the little newspaper ads and all these little things to make all of these little magical moments work in the early part of the book.

601
00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:40.800
And in some respects, it's just an unnecessary.

602
00:45:40.860 --> 00:45:43.380
Let's tie it all up in a little bow and make it all neat.

603
00:45:43.500 --> 00:45:44.820
And I don't think it's really necessary.

604
00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:50.039
It's funny, I've just been watching on Friday night with Peter, we've watched Death to the Daleks.

605
00:45:50.099 --> 00:45:56.219
And at the end of that, the doctor's just standing there with everybody else and it's a close-up on him and they haven't left.

606
00:45:56.280 --> 00:46:09.780
They haven't, you know, the Dalek, you know, it just ends, and you know, okay, yes, well, they'll say their goodbyes and they'll go, we don't get all that neatly tying up, we don't get to see like, oh, Bel Al come with us, but, you know, he doesn't get that opportunity to...

607
00:46:09.960 --> 00:46:11.039
Yeah, exactly.

608
00:46:11.099 --> 00:46:19.380
But what I'm saying is I'd rather have the scene at the memorial in whatever year it is rather than the scene in the bunker or whatever it is in the trench.

609
00:46:19.559 --> 00:46:21.300
Look, I don't know.

610
00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:28.860
Although it does show, sorry, it does show that Tim is more of a man than the other bloke is Hutchinson is just an idiot.

611
00:46:28.920 --> 00:46:32.159
But no, I like all those endings.

612
00:46:32.219 --> 00:46:36.420
For me, it rescues this episode and brings it back up to at least an eight.

613
00:46:36.539 --> 00:46:38.880
Yeah, I don't know.

614
00:46:38.940 --> 00:46:40.920
I mean, is this a weaker episode for you guys?

615
00:46:40.980 --> 00:46:44.340
Is it, is it, do you think you just see it as the one big thing?

616
00:46:44.400 --> 00:46:50.639
Like, you know, every week I kind of think the 1st part was stronger than the 2nd part, although the back end of it was quite glorious.

617
00:46:50.699 --> 00:47:10.500
I think that generally speaking, unless the 2nd part decides to go in a completely different direction, which does happen, and it's something that Moffat in particular is very keen on Dewey, I think that just of necessity, the 2nd episode tends to be weakest in a two-part story.

618
00:47:10.559 --> 00:47:16.679
And I mean, even in four-part classic Doctor Who stories, episode one always tends to be a little bit more fun.

619
00:47:16.739 --> 00:47:28.139
Here, I think the problem is that the plot runs out a little bit too early and there is a little bit too much talking, but I think I agree with you, Todd.

620
00:47:28.199 --> 00:47:35.099
I think that those scenes at the end, my favourite of the of the final scenes is the one with the doctor and Joan.

621
00:47:35.159 --> 00:47:36.960
I think that's extremely good.

622
00:47:37.079 --> 00:47:38.400
But all of them are great.

623
00:47:38.460 --> 00:47:42.960
And I do think, I mean, we've spent 90 minutes with these characters.

624
00:47:43.019 --> 00:47:44.159
Let's say goodbye to them.

625
00:47:44.219 --> 00:47:45.300
Exactly.

626
00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:48.840
The scene that you're talking about with Joan is definitely the best of them.

627
00:47:48.840 --> 00:47:58.500
And that is, I think, I wouldn't be surprised if it's one of those ones that Russell told Paul to put back in the story because whilst I don't remember much of the detail of the book.

628
00:47:58.559 --> 00:48:09.119
The one thing I that really stayed with me at the time, and upset me a little, at the time, was when Joan says goodbye to the doctor, not to John Smith.

629
00:48:09.179 --> 00:48:11.760
And it's sort of more set at the door.

630
00:48:11.820 --> 00:48:16.860
I think the impression is that he never actually gets over the threshold of the house because I think she's living in a cottage.

631
00:48:16.920 --> 00:48:20.940
And basically, she closes the door behind him.

632
00:48:21.059 --> 00:48:28.860
And I should have looked this up before the podcast, but I think the line is something like it's a paragraph all by itself and it just says, and she stood there for a very long time.

633
00:48:28.920 --> 00:48:32.820
And that really affected me at the time.

634
00:48:32.880 --> 00:48:37.440
There is some of that in that in that final farewell sequence with Joan.

635
00:48:37.500 --> 00:48:44.880
There is a change, which Paul remarks on in the forward to the edition that I referred to last week.

636
00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:51.539
And in the original novel, she asks him if he can change back and he says no.

637
00:48:51.960 --> 00:48:57.119
But here she asks if he can change back and he says, yes.

638
00:48:57.179 --> 00:48:58.559
And then she says, will you?

639
00:48:58.619 --> 00:48:59.340
And he says, no.

640
00:48:59.400 --> 00:49:00.599
Without a moment.

641
00:49:00.659 --> 00:49:03.420
I think that's so incredibly good.

642
00:49:03.480 --> 00:49:05.760
That's so amazingly good.

643
00:49:05.820 --> 00:49:06.840
I think.

644
00:49:06.900 --> 00:49:10.920
And I like, I'm not even sure what it's saying about the doctor.

645
00:49:10.980 --> 00:49:16.260
I guess it bespeaks a bit of callousness or something like that.

646
00:49:16.860 --> 00:49:25.500
Well, I don't know, because it's his, you know, he's being asked to give up his identity and his his cape and his underpants on the outside. and all of that sort of thing, yeah.

647
00:49:25.559 --> 00:49:27.179
Who's going to do that?

648
00:49:27.179 --> 00:49:28.380
It's so blunt.

649
00:49:28.440 --> 00:49:29.400
It's so blunt.

650
00:49:29.460 --> 00:49:30.840
It's really blunt.

651
00:49:30.900 --> 00:49:35.699
It's much better. than saying, no, you know, the technology only works once or some not.

652
00:49:35.760 --> 00:49:36.360
Exactly.

653
00:49:36.420 --> 00:49:38.400
It's much better to say no.

654
00:49:38.460 --> 00:49:39.059
No, I will not.

655
00:49:39.059 --> 00:49:40.199
I choose not to do that.

656
00:49:40.260 --> 00:49:42.000
Despite what we had, I choose not to.

657
00:49:42.539 --> 00:49:47.159
Picking up on your point, Todd, and well, both of your points about the strength of the episode.

658
00:49:47.219 --> 00:49:51.059
It's almost like there's enough content there for an old style 3 parts, like a McCoy 3 parter.

659
00:49:51.119 --> 00:49:54.599
I agree that maybe the 2nd episode is a little bit stretched.

660
00:49:54.659 --> 00:50:01.320
I agree, Nathan, with your point that the 2nd episodes generally are going to be weaker because the 1st episodes, there's all that promise.

661
00:50:01.380 --> 00:50:04.800
And, you know, the promise is never going to be lived up to.

662
00:50:04.800 --> 00:50:17.639
With the possible exception of case Avengersani, the promise is never really lived up to. you know, classic series stories, you know, the 2nd half is always a bit, oh, well, okay. then this happens and then now and then it's all over and bang explosion, the end.

663
00:50:17.699 --> 00:50:21.179
Um, I look at it as a whole.

664
00:50:21.239 --> 00:50:23.880
I like to see the whole both episodes as one story.

665
00:50:23.940 --> 00:50:26.579
I know that's not the fashionable thing to do with the new series.

666
00:50:26.639 --> 00:50:30.000
You want to sort of treat them all episodes and yes, this just happens to be sort of a two-partter.

667
00:50:30.059 --> 00:50:38.219
But I think the whole thing works as a 90 minute story, whether you break it down into 2 or whether you just watch it all in one hit.

668
00:50:38.280 --> 00:50:40.500
I think it works really nicely.

669
00:50:40.559 --> 00:50:59.280
Um, I think that, um, I don't know how Russell, how, why this kind of, it happened in the Russells, did Abe's era, but that thing where the 1st 2 part of the season is disposable and a bit stupid and, you know, is a runaround and lots of explosions and things like that. the word enjoyable is the word you're looking for.

670
00:50:59.340 --> 00:51:04.559
And then the 2nd two-parter is, and then the silly is the word.

671
00:51:04.619 --> 00:51:10.380
And then the 2nd two-parter is got a lot more emotional depth in it.

672
00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:13.739
There's a bit more adultness in it.

673
00:51:13.800 --> 00:51:15.780
And then when I say adult, I don't mean sex and stuff.

674
00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:17.579
I just mean, it's just more mature.

675
00:51:17.639 --> 00:51:22.980
The story, not only is the story more mature, but I think the emotional responses from the characters is more mature.

676
00:51:23.039 --> 00:51:25.980
There is nothing mature about aliens of London.

677
00:51:26.039 --> 00:51:30.360
No, I think it's got a serious political point to make, but it's a cartoon.

678
00:51:30.420 --> 00:51:34.800
And, you know, those ones are sort of Sarah Jane Adventure style runarounds.

679
00:51:34.860 --> 00:51:35.820
Yes, exactly.

680
00:51:35.880 --> 00:51:46.019
And so I, and so it was like, this was sort of when human nature came on, it was like, yes, this is, now it's completely clear, set in stone that this is the way and your modern Doctor Who series works.

681
00:51:46.079 --> 00:51:53.460
And the more interesting episodes tend to be backloaded in the season, apart from when you get to the very end, which is again another sort of stupid runaround.

682
00:51:53.519 --> 00:51:55.800
But it's like the way he puts together a season.

683
00:51:55.860 --> 00:52:07.260
And because, and I get that a story like this and a story maybe like blink or something is going to maybe lose some elements of the audience that are just wanting the silly runaround that you're so fond of.

684
00:52:07.320 --> 00:52:12.179
But it's just that thing that this is what makes, you know, we needed more Doctor Who like this, not less.

685
00:52:12.239 --> 00:52:18.239
Even if they're a little bits that you, I'd say that, oh, this could have been better, if any, that have done this, and this is a bit dragged out, et cetera, et cetera.

686
00:52:18.360 --> 00:52:23.340
But overall, this is exactly what Doctor Who should have been doing and should continue to do.

687
00:52:32.400 --> 00:52:36.960
All right, so it's part two, and so that means it's time for picks of the week.

688
00:52:37.019 --> 00:52:38.699
Do you want to start Todd?

689
00:52:38.820 --> 00:53:08.340
Well, I decided, surprise, surprise, to choose a classic Doctor Who story is my pick of the week, and I thought about this, and I thought, I need something that's got a green glowing alien spaceship that sort of crashes, and it's sort of a period piece, and somebody slaps somebody else, and the women upcharacterized in a certain way, and there's former public schoolboys, obviously, you know, so I've decided to go with the horror of Fang Rock. from the Tom Bake era.

690
00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:09.840
Go and enjoy.

691
00:53:09.960 --> 00:53:12.179
I think that's very good advice.

692
00:53:12.239 --> 00:53:13.139
Simon.

693
00:53:13.199 --> 00:53:25.619
Well, if I was to choose a classic Doctor Who story is, pick of the week because it's got a link to this one, it has to be enemy of the world because of, you know, the main actor playing a different role.

694
00:53:25.679 --> 00:53:26.519
But I'm not choosing that.

695
00:53:26.579 --> 00:53:31.679
I'm instead choosing W1A. Which features Joan, our very own Joan.

696
00:53:31.739 --> 00:53:35.039
Jessica Hines is in it as sort of a marketing guru.

697
00:53:35.099 --> 00:53:38.159
It didn't really get much of a run here in Australia.

698
00:53:38.219 --> 00:53:43.619
It's the kind of thing you really have to track down if there are any British listeners here, they'll be more familiar with it.

699
00:53:43.679 --> 00:54:01.619
But basically, Ian Fletcher, a chap called Ian Fletcher, who you'll recognise from Downton Abbey, who is formerly head of the Olympic Deliverance Commission, has taken up a position of head of values at the BBC, and it's got a wonderful, yes, minister flavour of the perils of bureaucracy and how everyone could walk around and nothing actually gets done.

700
00:54:01.679 --> 00:54:02.579
But she plays.

701
00:54:02.639 --> 00:54:09.000
It just shows how good an actress she is because she plays a totally different role to what she plays here.

702
00:54:09.059 --> 00:54:11.699
And is it like just a one series or?

703
00:54:11.699 --> 00:54:12.719
I think there are 3 series.

704
00:54:12.780 --> 00:54:13.860
There are only a few episodes in each.

705
00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:14.219
Okay.

706
00:54:14.219 --> 00:54:15.179
Yeah.

707
00:54:15.239 --> 00:54:16.079
Good.

708
00:54:16.079 --> 00:54:17.460
Look forward to watching it.

709
00:54:17.519 --> 00:54:18.780
Nathan.

710
00:54:18.840 --> 00:54:21.300
I'm going to choose the original novel.

711
00:54:21.360 --> 00:54:23.579
By Paul Cornell.

712
00:54:23.639 --> 00:54:26.039
We talked quite a lot about it last week.

713
00:54:26.099 --> 00:54:32.820
I, at the time, often found new adventures a bit tedious.

714
00:54:32.880 --> 00:54:39.780
One thing that they had a habit of doing was introducing a whole heap of characters and settings that wouldn't pay off until the very end.

715
00:54:39.780 --> 00:54:48.900
And they didn't generally feel like works of fiction that merited quite so much effort on my part.

716
00:54:49.079 --> 00:54:54.780
And so, you know, occasionally they were tedious and eventually I did stop reading them.

717
00:54:54.840 --> 00:55:03.059
But they were what we had in 1995, and in fact, they were what we had from sort of 1990 to, you know, goodness knows when.

718
00:55:03.119 --> 00:55:08.760
And there was some extraordinary Doctor Who in that series.

719
00:55:08.820 --> 00:55:11.340
There was some bad Doctor Who as well.

720
00:55:11.400 --> 00:55:19.139
But human nature, I think, as you said last week, Simon, was really kind of one of the pinnacles of the series.

721
00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:26.280
And I think it's well worth experiencing in that medium, if you've enjoyed this episode as much as we have, I think.

722
00:55:26.340 --> 00:55:28.920
I look forward to reading it for the 1st time.

723
00:55:28.980 --> 00:55:32.400
I'm sure it's in my box in the attic, but I bought it, but I don't think I read it.

724
00:55:32.460 --> 00:55:33.179
No, definitely read it.

725
00:55:33.239 --> 00:55:33.960
It's really good for me.

726
00:55:34.019 --> 00:55:34.380
It is great.

727
00:55:34.440 --> 00:55:36.780
I'm looking forward to getting up to it if I ever get that.

728
00:56:01.199 --> 00:56:04.980
Well, there is, now, that's all we have time for this week.

729
00:56:05.039 --> 00:56:10.980
We'll be back next week to find out what the school births of Mr. Moffat has been up to during those illicit trips to the pub.

730
00:56:10.980 --> 00:56:17.400
So please join us as we discuss a Doctor Who's most savagely underrated episode blink.

731
00:56:17.460 --> 00:56:27.239
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and at FDE podcast on Twitter.

732
00:56:27.300 --> 00:56:42.659
You can also find our series 11 flashcast, Jody and Terra at Jody Interterterra.com, and at Jody Interterra on Twitter, and our James Bond commentary podcast, Bondfinger at bondfinger.com, at bondfinger on Facebook, and at bondfingercast on Twitter.

733
00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:51.719
Until next time, may you fall in love with a charming schoolteacher who isn't secretly an alien from the constellation of Kosterberus.

734
00:56:51.780 --> 00:56:53.039
There's a lot of us about.

735
00:56:53.099 --> 00:56:55.679
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

736
00:56:55.739 --> 00:56:56.820
There is.

737
00:56:56.880 --> 00:56:57.659
See you soon.

738
00:56:57.719 --> 00:56:58.440
Bye for now.

739
00:57:02.340 --> 00:57:07.260
That was Flight for Entirety, starring Todd Beele, be Nathan Bottomley, and Simon Moore.

740
00:57:07.320 --> 00:57:10.920
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings performance by Jane Orberg.

741
00:57:10.980 --> 00:57:16.980
This episode, 6 Bullets, was recorded on the 18th of August 2019 and released on the 10th of November.

742
00:57:20.039 --> 00:57:33.239
Fans of human nature will enjoy series 12's upcoming TV adaptation of John Peel's War of the Daleks, which will remove every other Dalek story from Canon, except for the wheel in space, which doesn't even have any Daleks in it.

743
00:57:34.199 --> 00:57:39.239
Nathan, I know that you really enjoyed the musical score for this episode.

744
00:57:39.300 --> 00:57:42.780
Did you want to, well, talk about what I expects that you...

745
00:57:42.780 --> 00:57:59.639
Look, I think that this is where the all the strange, strange creatures track, really, sort of comes into its own, and there's not really all that much more to say than that.

746
00:57:59.699 --> 00:58:02.400
All right, well, do you have something to say about the music?

747
00:58:02.460 --> 00:58:03.300
Absolutely not.

748
00:58:03.360 --> 00:58:04.980
Because, I mean, it's...

749
00:58:04.980 --> 00:58:06.000
You're a musician, you might.

750
00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:07.019
I'm not a musician.

751
00:58:07.079 --> 00:58:09.960
But I will say that...

752
00:58:09.960 --> 00:58:11.219
You've got an ear for music, Simon.

753
00:58:11.340 --> 00:58:25.980
I will say that it's typical Murray Gold, in that there are moments which are perfectly good, but then it, it, it, um, it gets too big into, um, showy, uh, in too many places.

754
00:58:26.039 --> 00:58:29.820
But that's just a general complaint, but and that's not necessarily my goals falls.

755
00:58:29.880 --> 00:58:32.039
It's the fault of the style that they're going for I think.

756
00:58:32.099 --> 00:58:33.960
Have you seen years and years yet?

757
00:58:34.019 --> 00:58:35.460
No, no.

758
00:58:35.519 --> 00:58:37.079
Murray does the score to it?

759
00:58:37.139 --> 00:58:38.579
I think it's just tremendous.

760
00:58:38.639 --> 00:58:41.219
Well, I'll be looking forward.

761
00:58:41.280 --> 00:58:42.659
It's definitely on our list.

762
00:58:42.719 --> 00:58:44.699
Is it actually, it's not available here, though, isn't it?

763
00:58:44.760 --> 00:58:46.260
Well, he did.

764
00:58:46.320 --> 00:58:49.079
I mean, he, you know, Russell brought him for queerest folk and stuff as well.

765
00:58:49.139 --> 00:58:51.599
Well, the queer folk music is very good.

766
00:58:51.659 --> 00:58:53.820
Yeah, I think that that seems like that.

767
00:58:53.880 --> 00:59:00.420
I think the Marigold music, you talk to, owes too much to Dudley Simpson, and that's who I'm not a huge fan of either.

768
00:59:01.139 --> 00:59:05.280
I guess I like that sort of sort of more operatic.

769
00:59:05.340 --> 00:59:09.420
I mean, I think, well, that's what music's for, you know, tell me how to feel, Murray.

770
00:59:09.480 --> 00:59:10.920
I'll cry, I promise.

771
00:59:10.980 --> 00:59:13.320
I think that's probably a tag actually.

772
00:59:14.699 --> 00:59:18.480
The endings, like after all of this.