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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:30:14

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Hello, Delissa and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that provides insightful analysis of every single Doctor Who story in order.

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It's nonsense for deep people.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Liz.

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Well, the doctor and Martha have the week off, and so we have the chance for some quality time with Carrie Mulligan in an episode partly about the terrifying brevity of human life, but mostly about how clever Stephen Moffatt is, exhibit A, blink.

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So, Liz, this or the Time Monster?

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Oh, my goodness.

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Oh, you said it would be easy.

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That's a bit.

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You're a cruel man.

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That's been harsh.

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In terms of love?

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The Time Monster, obviously.

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You can't just chuck out childhood's beloved favourites for this newfangled nonsense of the 21st century.

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But I suppose technically, in a purely objectivish or subjectivish, you can get sense, oh, which one is actually better written, I must reluctantly admit, it's probably blank, a little bit.

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Maybe.

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What might argue the show's a greater command of scriptwriting craft?

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Yeah.

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Little bit.

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It's still, the Time Monster is really fun and we really enjoyed it when we covered it, didn't we?

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Yeah, yeah.

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I mean, it'd be like asking me, you know, bandrils or adipos, and it's like, you can, no, you can't get rid of the bandrils.

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I'm not saying we have to get rid of one.

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Oh, okay.

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This isn't Sophie's choice.

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It's not, you know, like it's, I'm not being sort of terribly cruel.

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I would the world would be a much worse place without the time monster to kind of relax in front of.

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It's wonderful.

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Yes, but it is a different pleasure from work.

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Yes, that makes sense.

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Though I would love to have someone new to Doctor Who be like, okay, we're going to show you an example of the new series. sit down and watch blink.

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And now here's the best of the old series, such down, I watched The Time Monster.

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I just watched the expression on their face.

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Oh, dear.

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I have never shown the time monster at the Doctor Who Club at school and I really should.

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I need to find someone to do that too, Liz.

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That's genius.

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Very helpful. like that.

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I suggest some small people that you insulate from the world at large until they are ready to be exposed to Doctor Who and continue on in ordinary lives.

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That might be immoral.

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There might be some ethical considerations there, which is why I obviously don't do any sort of experiments like that.

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That'd be...

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I don't like talking.

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Shut up.

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No, no.

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It's like that friggin king who had those 2 children that no one was allowed to speak to or something.

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I can't even remember.

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Cut all that out.

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That nonsense.

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This is a bit of an uncontroversial one, isn't it?

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I mean, we're not going to be wrangling over the, you know, our opinions here.

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Does anyone not like this?

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I think it's great.

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I really enjoy it.

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I remember really enjoying it at the time and kind of being blown away at the time and going, wow, this is something new and different and exciting.

57
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How about you, Liz?

58
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But the time I was at university and I was watching this at my flat with a friend and we were steadily getting more and more scared as it went on to the point where the bit where the TARDIS is surrounded.

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I believe we may have been screaming in terror.

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Genuinely freaked out to that extent because it was, it was just so cool and new and it felt fresh and and and very, you know, it feels like a very classicy twilighty zone slash outer limits um style for yielding modern, yielding modern error, the modern error, but it's none of the cheese of the the remakes in the the 90s of, it's, it's like modern and cool science fiction.

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That's really, really scary.

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I forgot when I was watching Stems, just how good some of the direction is, like there's this gorgeous one where Sally, um, she's crouched over something.

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The angels there looking at her.

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She stands back up, and as her body moves across the face of angel, it switches back, um, in the same shot, and it's just, I'd forgotten stuff like that.

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I'd forgotten just how creepy a lot of it is before you get to the actual bit where they're like screaming at you silently.

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Um, what watching it again.

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It's one of the ones that I try to watch very seldomly because uh, like uh, the girl in the fireplace.

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I'm terrified that it will just become too well known.

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So I, it's, it's, yeah, and I love that feeling of, um, Not, like, yes, I know what's going to happen, but I've forgotten enough of the details that it's interesting again.

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And this has definitely been, yes, I know it's really good.

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But watching it this morning, it was like, wow, this is really amazing.

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I'd forgotten all this stuff, which was very cool.

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Yeah, yeah, I just watched it today as well.

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You're so right about those, those moments where the transition over the angels is a person moving across them and all of a sudden they've moved or that bit where Sally's looking out the window at the police station and sees the angels across the way and then gets distracted and looks back and the angels are gone and they're right next to the window, she's staring out of.

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That's wonderful, isn't it?

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In fact, that's not an obvious decision.

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Like it didn't have to be like that, did it?

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The idea that we as the audience count as someone looking at the angels.

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And so that's why we never see the move.

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And they will move the next time that they appear.

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But that choice to just have them as completely motionless figures isn't something that had to happen.

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Was it Stephen Moffat's idea?

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Yes, yes, it was.

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He was recalling a, I believe, a trip he had as a child and he saw an old busted down church from far away behind a fence and he could just make out the statues in there and it really unnerved him.

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And he was trying to write this script in a hurry, basically, because 1st of all, he says, well, you know, I still want to write for the 3rd season, but can I have something towards the back of the season and maybe just one episode and he sort of, he says he put Russell off so much that eventually he volunteered for the Dr. Light episode because he thought no one wants to do that.

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Everyone wants to write the doctor.

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And that's also why the sort of plot of the episode is borrowed from the 2006 Doctor Who annual.

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Yeah, which has a story about it's like what I did on my holidays by Sally Sparrow.

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Yeah, but there's no weeping angels or anything in that.

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The doctor's just stuck in the past and is sending Sally messages from there and Sally's, I think, around a 12 year old character in that.

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But the decision was made to make her an adult for dramatic reasons because Stephen kind of quoted Sidney Newman to say that he felt that children were more interested in watching characters older than them rather than characters of their own age.

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Yes, I do recall that as a child.

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Doctor Who was more interesting than any children's tell, any just children's television that was available to me.

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Stephen Moffatt will put more children in Doctor Who when he takes over.

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But at this point, there aren't that many.

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And I still think that, you know, the way this works, because the other thing that it leans into, apart from Stephen Moffatt's really kind of careful plotting is how good he is at romantic comedy.

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And so, you know, having Sally's emotional arc, sort of.

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I mean, it is sort of fairly thinly sketched, but we get a meat cute with Larry, you know, leading up to her taking Larry's hand and just sort of very quietly kind of agreeing that they're kind of together now at the very end once everything's been resolved.

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I mean, Moffatt writes funny sitcom dialogue in a way that seems so incredibly effortless and I think that he always does really well when he's got that structure to work with.

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Yeah, I think the dialogue throughout.

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It was one of the things that I'd partly forgotten.

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And so, um, all the lines that are like, oh, yeah, that was like, um, that was just really cool to see again.

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And it's, yeah, it's so annoying how good the dialogue is every single time and the way it works, the way it's like, yes, it's character stuff and it's funny and you enjoy it, but it's also pushing the plot forward.

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It has a point.

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It's just, it's desperately irritating how good.

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Almost all of it.

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Ive got one. there's one scene that I'm with a couple of dialogue that I'm like, eh, I don't like this, but that might be probably down to personal taste more than anything else.

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But so much of it, all of Sally's conversations are just an absolute delight.

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I take such joy in the way that they are so efficient and witty.

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I mean, the stuff with Detective Shipton and how just quick it was and yet how much it got to you was, 0 my god, I was like tears in my eyes with the, he's dying now and her, I'll stay with you.

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And it was like, did I cry this before?

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What?

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This is terrible.

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I think I cry every time I see it and I was definitely in tears and I think it is the Billy Shipton thing that gets to me.

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And it isn't just, like, he's so tremendously, fabulously sexually confident.

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And Stephen Moffatt writes women like River Song. who are also sort of just supremely confident.

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Like she, um, Sally definitely wins in sort of every interaction with, with Larry, um, but she's put on the back foot by Billy.

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But it's not just that, which I think is beautiful, that scene of two, you know, just attractive young people flirting wittily.

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But the payoff to it.

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And I guess what people maybe don't talk about quite so much is just the idea that it's about how quick life is, how quickly it goes.

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So Billy Shipton lives a long life.

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And Kathy Nightingale lives a long and full life.

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But to Sally, they're over like that.

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You blink and you miss it.

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And it's that line that Billy says about looking at his hands and seeing that they're old man's hands and asking when did that happen?

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You know, and it happened just instantly it happened on this day, as well as happening, you know, sometime between 1969 and now.

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Just how quickly life is over.

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And so obviously weeping angels, which appear on tombstones.

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They're obviously the correct monster for that, for that theme.

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Something I really like about the Billy stuff is you've got Michael Obiora playing young Billy.

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You've got Lewis Mahoney previously of Planet of Evil and Frontier in Space as Old Billy.

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I imagine they would never have met the way that modern television has made the 2 actors.

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And yet they managed to capture the same mannerism.

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So I can only put that down to Hetty McDonald, the director.

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And this was her 1st Doctor Who.

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She's making the Dr. Light episode, which is double banked with other things.

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She will come back to the series in Peter Capaldi's time.

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But this is just so well directed.

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And then after Sally has sat with, with Billy, I don't think we even get a crossfade, which would be the usual thing to show that time has passed, we cut to the floor of the hospital and tilt up to find Sally staring out the window and the rain has stopped.

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I'm choking up now.

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But it's when you can see the floor.

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The floor is reflective.

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Yes.

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And so you would have seen the rain in it in the previous scene.

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So the moment you see that floor, with the lighting different, you know that enough time has passed and that rain is over.

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Yeah.

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Like I know I know for a fact I bawled the 1st time I watched that scene.

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I absolutely bore it.

149
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Oh, sorry, I'm just going to get everyone.

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Oh God, Italy is just, it's so, it's so good.

151
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And it's not the only time she does stuff with reflections in the story.

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She does it in a very uncanny way in the house where Larry's staring at the Dooda, the angel, and Sally's trying to get out and there's a mirror in the hallway and it uses the mirror to show her as much as it does actually looking at her, which is using reflections in a slightly creepier way.

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Um, but yeah, no, it was just, um, what was said about, um, about life being over so quickly.

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And one of the things that really made that work for me was that the people being sent back in time, Kathy and Billy, they didn't have like short, horrible, tragic, miserable lives in the times they were in.

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They're both shown to have happy fulfilling lives that they don't regret that, you know, they, they, um, found joy in.

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And uh, and yet that's still layered with the sadness of it being over.

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And to me, that kind of, that makes it more relatable and more meaningful because we're not being asked to, 0 my god, it's so terrible, long life miserable.

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But it's that, yeah, it cuts out that idea of it being a completely horrific thing that the angels are doing to you and you're focussing on the fact that it's, yeah, it's about the quickness of time passing instead.

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It's really neat.

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It's really beautiful, isn't it?

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There's that.

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Do you remember young Billy says to Sally, life is short and you are hard.

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And then old Billy says life is long and you're hot.

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And just the idea that life is long.

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Like life is long.

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He lived another 50 years.

167
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But it's still tragic that it's over.

168
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And, you know, Doctor Who Death is usually so stupid.

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Like you get shot.

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You get shot in the in the throat, you clutch your stomach and then fall over sort of thing.

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You know, there's a ray gun or something like that.

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You find a comfortable spot to land and move out of the way, so canine can get down the corridor.

173
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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You get hugged to death by robot mummies or something.

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Like the whole thing is so sort of preposterous.

176
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But having real proper death and here's what it means.

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And the new series has done death sort of rather better than the classic series often does.

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But this, I think, is its best treatment of death today.

179
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No, because it's, yeah, because as you say, it's just like kind of often a sort of comedy window dressing.

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I mean, my favourite story for Death is a chair of the autons.

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And none of those, I actually feel particularly bad for the characters.

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I think it's hilarious though, where they're dispatched, which isn't necessarily the best thing when you're doing that every single time.

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But yeah, part of part of the reason Blink works so well.

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I mean, I sometimes I feel like the weeping angels and the brilliance of them overshadows everything else that's brilliant in it, but that's such a, um, such a compassionate and kind way of looking at the end of life and not being um, sentimental or softening it, but not being cruel about it, um, is is just, yeah, it's really moving.

185
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And both, um, Billy and Kathy's deaths are treated, treated in that way that you really feel that these are real people.

186
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There's a realism to the whole episode that is relatively unusual in Doctor Who as a whole, um, which obviously benefits uh, partly from the doctor being in it for a minimum amount of time.

187
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But these, um, occasionally you get characters wandering into Doctor Who that do feel realer than what we often have.

188
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There's a lot of them, I think, in season 7, uh, parties 1st season.

189
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Um, and here we have another handful of them that, uh, they have, they have that extra feeling of, of, of depth and seriousness that's um, often absent or is minimised because of the extraordinariness of the situation.

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Whereas this, it's very, it's very down low, it's very creepy.

191
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Such, there are no real, there's like, I wouldn't say real, because that's not true, there's practical effects, but there's, there's nothing glitzy about the special effects here.

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It's all done in, oh, it's done such a nice sense.

193
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It's a nice simplistic way that this could have been made anytime in the past 50 years and still have been beautifully done.

194
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Yeah, I think that is such a good point. sort of, there are stories which, if they had been made for the classic series, the limitations of the special effects back then would have impacted the ability to tell the story, say the end of the world, which is still a very good script, but as you say, I was watching this this afternoon thinking this is almost a stage play.

195
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You know, you've got Kathy's flat, you've got the DVD shop, you've got the house, and you've got the police station, really.

196
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You've got those 4 locations. hospital as well, I suppose.

197
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It could be a stage by it. has that quality where they are simply relying on the performances of the actors to tell the story.

198
00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:26.099
And of course, the weeping angels don't have voice.

199
00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:30.119
And even when they're given voice in later stories.

200
00:18:30.180 --> 00:18:35.640
There's a conceit around it that we're not quite really hearing them speaking sort of thing.

201
00:18:35.700 --> 00:18:45.119
They are that alien, that they do not communicate through speech or through telepathy or any other way that we have had aliens communicate indocto before.

202
00:18:45.180 --> 00:18:45.960
They don't communicate.

203
00:18:46.019 --> 00:18:51.119
We don't know how they communicate to one another because nothing is known about them.

204
00:18:51.180 --> 00:19:00.539
And that makes them even scarier and almost love crafty in their design and conception.

205
00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:20.700
Yeah, there is, there is quite a lot of crafty vibe there, whereas both the beginning of the universe thing and the, it's not a true sort of weird existential horror thing, but it is, there is a, there is a horrific sort of stretch, human, but not quite humanness of them that really is quite freaky.

206
00:19:20.759 --> 00:19:24.539
The unexpected sharp teeth on the inside as well. that um, yeah.

207
00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:27.960
I think that's the moment where I jumped, like again.

208
00:19:28.019 --> 00:19:28.859
And I knew it was coming.

209
00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:30.000
Of course, I knew it was coming.

210
00:19:30.059 --> 00:19:32.400
But, you know, there's a musical sting.

211
00:19:32.460 --> 00:19:35.339
It's the 1st time Larry, I think, sees the teeth.

212
00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:35.759
Is that right?

213
00:19:35.819 --> 00:19:36.660
Yeah, yeah.

214
00:19:36.660 --> 00:19:38.819
And he's really close.

215
00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:42.779
That thing too, where he can't sort of stop himself from blinking or whatever.

216
00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:45.000
And then suddenly it's like right in his face.

217
00:19:45.059 --> 00:19:49.079
Like it's it's really good and he sells that so well.

218
00:19:49.140 --> 00:19:51.839
That scene where he's just absolutely frightened.

219
00:19:51.900 --> 00:19:53.519
The camera is right in his face.

220
00:19:53.579 --> 00:19:55.799
He's looking straight at us.

221
00:19:55.859 --> 00:19:59.039
We're watching his eyes for any sign that he's going to blink.

222
00:19:59.099 --> 00:20:00.480
It's super tense.

223
00:20:00.539 --> 00:20:05.160
And he still manages to be kind of really funny and likeable as well.

224
00:20:05.819 --> 00:20:11.940
It's funny how when he turns up, he says, you live in Scooby-Doo's house and he's basically shaggy.

225
00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:35.700
It's another one of, you know, Stephen Moffatt is a writer who talks about masculinity like quite a lot and, you know, right from coupling and even joking apart, I think it sort of interrogates the smart man, the smart, smug man sort of thing.

226
00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:38.640
And, you know, both of his doctors deal with that too.

227
00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:52.799
And Larry is sort of, he's a little bit like Oliver, a little bit like Jeff from coupling, you know, like he's a super nerd and he's got the t-shirt and, you know, his mates are the internet and all of that sort of thing.

228
00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:59.160
And Sally, I think Sally seems a bit less typical.

229
00:20:59.220 --> 00:21:04.019
She's very smart and she does say apparently when she's annoyed.

230
00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:05.460
Like Susan.

231
00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:06.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

232
00:21:06.660 --> 00:21:09.180
Yeah, I was thinking about coupling as well.

233
00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:17.460
And I think what sets Sally apart is, you know, all the characters in coupling have their fatal flaw, if you like.

234
00:21:17.819 --> 00:21:24.059
Sally doesn't really seem to have a fatal flaw that's based in hubris, like the coupling characters do.

235
00:21:24.119 --> 00:21:24.599
Yeah.

236
00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:34.380
You know, she's a flawed character and she doesn't know everything, but she is a lot more of an ideal person without being hyper perfect.

237
00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:35.640
So she's believable.

238
00:21:35.700 --> 00:21:36.779
Yeah.

239
00:21:36.839 --> 00:21:38.339
I absolutely adore her.

240
00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:53.940
It's a detective story and we get Sally and Kathy joking about being an ITV detective duo, but it's a detective story with an amateur sleuth, but figuring things out in a way that we, the audience, can figure out as well.

241
00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:59.759
She's an expertly crafted character because she doesn't talk down to the audience.

242
00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:02.579
She's on the same level as the audience.

243
00:22:02.579 --> 00:22:11.759
And when she figures out and we figure stuff out, we get that she's clever, we feel clever being brought along with her.

244
00:22:11.819 --> 00:22:15.480
I can see why Stephen Moffatt tried to bring her back several times.

245
00:22:15.539 --> 00:22:18.420
Yeah, that is the brilliant thing.

246
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:22.319
Other than Carrie Milligan's performance, which is just, God, it's amazing.

247
00:22:22.380 --> 00:22:36.119
We get her here in an early role being so brilliant, but that sense that, yes, she's obviously clever, and that satisfaction is an audience of, yet absolutely figuring it out, she goes along, which is so rare, generally speaking, detective shows.

248
00:22:36.180 --> 00:22:37.380
The detective knows more than us.

249
00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:38.220
They're ahead of us.

250
00:22:38.279 --> 00:22:47.819
Sometimes they cheat, and it's not things that fall down to make sense, but in a, in a, if anything, we have a slight advantage here because we know it's Doctor Who.

251
00:22:47.880 --> 00:23:06.599
We know there's time travel involved, but everything is at, we're giving enough information to sort of be able to guess at it, but the moment of confirmation is the same as when, when Sally is getting it, and that sense of satisfaction as a viewer of having the mystery set up and then the reveal. is fantastic.

252
00:23:06.660 --> 00:23:13.019
And that's the sort of sad thing about rewatches of this because you're never going to get that 1st time watch back.

253
00:23:13.079 --> 00:23:18.359
And this is a story where the 1st time watch is just glorious on so many levels.

254
00:23:18.420 --> 00:23:26.579
But yeah, I miss, I miss having the delightful surprise and satisfaction of the mystery reveals as we go along.

255
00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:48.660
I do like the stages of it, but it is kind of funny, the way that the way that it kind of works is because it's Doctor Who and because there's time travel.

256
00:23:49.200 --> 00:24:00.119
You know, one of the things that a detective writer does is carefully sets everything up and provides clues and red herrings and all of those kinds of things.

257
00:24:00.180 --> 00:24:02.579
A good detective writer.

258
00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:03.960
Some of them cheat.

259
00:24:05.099 --> 00:24:09.660
But the doctor is kind of doing that here, isn't he?

260
00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:12.359
Like the doctor is kind of setting things up.

261
00:24:12.420 --> 00:24:24.000
So the doctor has the message under the wallpaper, but also tells, tells Billy to tell Sally to read the list and that leads her to the next discovery.

262
00:24:24.299 --> 00:24:27.720
You know, there's something that the doctor's doing in the background.

263
00:24:27.779 --> 00:24:37.079
And I couldn't help thinking all the time that I was watching it, that because Stephen Moffatt is sort of famous for these puzzle box plots.

264
00:24:37.500 --> 00:24:40.259
Which is basically the fault of this story.

265
00:24:40.259 --> 00:24:44.759
Because it's this one and it's like nothing else is quite like this.

266
00:24:44.819 --> 00:24:47.400
And yet we expect them to do this every single time.

267
00:24:47.460 --> 00:24:51.299
You have to be this good every single time or you have failed Stephen Moffatt.

268
00:24:51.359 --> 00:25:06.299
I think that, you know, next year when he does the 2 parter and the 2 parter has lots of questions, you know, is a sort of very weird puzzle box, it's impossible, the 1st time you watch it, to know exactly what's going on and how it's going to resolve itself.

269
00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:17.940
And in true Stephen Moffatt fashion, It resolves itself perfectly and all makes sense, even though I think by the cliffhanger, you're absolutely wondering how, you know, how can all of these things be happening?

270
00:25:18.779 --> 00:25:36.420
And so the doctor and Stephen Moffatt seem to be having a similar role here in the episode, that there's something here, which, whether it's deliberately or inadvertently, has Moffatt sort of commenting on his own craft as someone who devises plants.

271
00:25:36.660 --> 00:25:38.579
That's interesting.

272
00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:39.359
I like that.

273
00:25:39.420 --> 00:25:49.920
Well, that bit at the end, you know, where, where does Larry say, look, sometimes we just don't find out what happened and that's okay.

274
00:25:49.980 --> 00:26:07.319
You know, there's a kind of a way of watching Doctor Who, where it doesn't matter if everything's not resolved or if you get to the fridge afterwards and, you know, take out a milk bottle or something and then you think, actually, how could that even possibly have happened?

275
00:26:07.380 --> 00:26:15.000
You know, there's a way in which that doesn't, that doesn't matter and plenty of fantastic Doctor Who doesn't tell you everything.

276
00:26:15.720 --> 00:26:19.680
But that's not Moffatt's Doctor Who, you know.

277
00:26:19.740 --> 00:26:24.779
And Sally, who is standing in 1st Stephen Moffatt here, says, no, I have to know.

278
00:26:24.839 --> 00:26:26.279
It has to resolve itself.

279
00:26:26.339 --> 00:26:28.200
It has to make proper sense.

280
00:26:28.259 --> 00:26:34.259
And then within sort of 2 minutes, the thing happens that makes it all make proper sense and fit together.

281
00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:35.339
Yeah, yeah.

282
00:26:35.339 --> 00:26:41.339
I definitely think that as if you're watching the episode at that point, you're like yelling at Larry going, no, we need the answer.

283
00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:42.059
We have to find out.

284
00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:43.500
I just all resolve.

285
00:26:43.559 --> 00:26:49.559
So I feel very onside of Sally Sparrow at that moment, and then as you're sort of inwardly yelling, if you're me.

286
00:26:49.619 --> 00:26:52.079
Then the exhale is, ah, there we go.

287
00:26:52.140 --> 00:26:53.460
We now know everything.

288
00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:54.240
It's all good.

289
00:26:54.299 --> 00:26:55.680
Yeah, yeah.

290
00:26:55.740 --> 00:26:59.039
And there's just a few little details around those scenes that I love.

291
00:26:59.099 --> 00:27:21.299
First of all, you know, this is one year later after the main narrative, and there's an earlier point in the episode which says that this episode is taking place in 2007, which, from the perspective of the new series of Doctor Who is contemporaneous with series 2, because each one of Russell's series is the year ahead of production, because of that 12 months.

292
00:27:21.359 --> 00:27:28.859
So that year means that the doctor and Martha are back on Earth contemporaneous with her timeline.

293
00:27:28.920 --> 00:27:29.640
Right.

294
00:27:29.700 --> 00:27:43.200
So, you know, this is sort of Martha just popping home briefly between 42 and the sound of drums, kind of to find a to find a 4 things and a lizard, 5 minutes to red hatching.

295
00:27:43.500 --> 00:27:52.019
And I also love because I was watching this in the knowledge that they've often asked Kerry Mulligan to come back.

296
00:27:52.019 --> 00:27:56.039
And of course, her star has risen and she's doing amazing things in other productions now.

297
00:27:56.099 --> 00:28:04.740
But I watched that scene where she hands over the folder to the doctor and as she takes Larry's hand, I'm like, you know what?

298
00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:21.240
I'm actually glad that we haven't revisited Sally Sparrow and Larry Nightingale, because with her conversation with Larry beforehand, she can't, she can't get on with her life until she has closed the loop with the doctor.

299
00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:23.819
And when she closes it, she doesn't say the doctor, take me with you.

300
00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:25.079
She doesn't say I want to go travelling.

301
00:28:25.140 --> 00:28:26.160
Let me see the TARDS again.

302
00:28:26.220 --> 00:28:28.380
It's like, actually, no, I'm good now.

303
00:28:28.440 --> 00:28:29.700
I'm ready I'm ready to go on.

304
00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:46.259
And yeah, I've often said that with Amy and Rory's story, I kind of wish there were several earlier points where that could have ended and I really like the ending of Sally and Larry's story within the world of the doctor here and they go back into their shop and Bantos nowhere to be seen.

305
00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:48.359
They've bought him out.

306
00:28:48.420 --> 00:28:49.440
They're free-named it.

307
00:28:49.500 --> 00:28:50.819
Yeah, that's the final shot.

308
00:28:50.880 --> 00:28:53.400
It's Barrow and Nightingale.

309
00:28:53.460 --> 00:29:11.519
Um, I just, I just really like that, that because we've, we were discussing earlier how, despite the tragedy of Billy and Kathy being sent back in time, they did have their full lives and as, as Larry says, they're like, I think your obsession is getting in the way of your life.

310
00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:15.960
There certainly isn't a comment on any companions, I'm sure.

311
00:29:16.920 --> 00:29:18.420
Or us.

312
00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:20.460
But it's, Oh my goodness.

313
00:29:20.519 --> 00:29:22.319
No.

314
00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:24.960
I don't need that.

315
00:29:25.019 --> 00:29:26.039
But exactly.

316
00:29:26.099 --> 00:29:27.180
Badlands.

317
00:29:27.240 --> 00:29:28.920
I did hear that.

318
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:35.279
But Larry and Banto are a comment on fandom.

319
00:29:35.339 --> 00:29:42.359
You know, Larry's got the t-shirt and he's on the egg forums and the doctor says, look to your left and he says, I think that's a political statement.

320
00:29:42.420 --> 00:29:49.799
How many times have I argued with David from the Doctor Who show about the politics of the Sunmakers for God's sake.

321
00:29:50.339 --> 00:29:50.700
You know?

322
00:29:51.299 --> 00:29:54.720
I couldn't pretend it's a comet on Meal Phantom.

323
00:29:55.019 --> 00:29:57.960
I think you can, particularly Banto.

324
00:29:58.019 --> 00:30:01.440
Bantos are particularly kind of horrible kind of male fan.

325
00:30:01.500 --> 00:30:06.960
Yeah, well, the script refers to him, rather uncharitably, as all gut and a tight T-shirt.

326
00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:09.119
I feel really attacked, right?

327
00:30:10.920 --> 00:30:17.519
Banto, you know, he's kind of presented as a bit useless because Sally walks in and he's just like, oh, yeah, Larry's doing that, whatever.

328
00:30:17.579 --> 00:30:24.059
But as she's leaving the shop, he's the one who says, why does no one ever go to the police, like lamp shading this whole thing?

329
00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:24.660
Yeah.

330
00:30:24.660 --> 00:30:26.160
But does that give her the idea?

331
00:30:26.220 --> 00:30:27.420
Like, that gives her the idea.

332
00:30:27.480 --> 00:30:29.039
Isn't that why she goes for the toilet?

333
00:30:29.099 --> 00:30:30.240
That's what I mean.

334
00:30:30.299 --> 00:30:34.740
It's like he's set up to be a stereotypical, useless fanboy.

335
00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:36.420
Bit harsh.

336
00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:38.160
It a perfectly reasonable comment.

337
00:30:38.220 --> 00:30:41.099
I have heard fanboys make before and I agree with them.

338
00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:42.240
That's a good point.

339
00:30:42.299 --> 00:30:43.140
Oh, absolutely.

340
00:30:43.200 --> 00:30:43.859
Yeah, yeah.

341
00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:46.440
It's an important comment and it speeds the plot along.

342
00:30:46.500 --> 00:30:49.680
In fact, the fandom thing with Larry.

343
00:30:49.740 --> 00:30:51.839
Sally is very sweet about it.

344
00:30:51.900 --> 00:30:55.019
You know, like she doesn't make fun of him or anything.

345
00:30:55.319 --> 00:31:06.599
And, you know, sometimes you can imagine Stephen Moffatt writing, someone being a little bit more dismissive, like some of the characters in coupling.

346
00:31:06.660 --> 00:31:08.579
And she thinks it's funny.

347
00:31:08.700 --> 00:31:18.720
Like that smile that she gives when she decodes his reference to, you know, his mates and she says, you know, that's the internet, isn't it?

348
00:31:18.779 --> 00:31:20.099
It's very sweet.

349
00:31:20.160 --> 00:31:21.779
Like she's she's lovely.

350
00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:33.420
I think the 2 of them, they don't sort of get any scenes where they're sort of growing, you know, warm and attached to one another in any overt way, but they go through this thing together.

351
00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:35.039
Then we get a year.

352
00:31:35.099 --> 00:31:37.980
And like I think it's a credible ending.

353
00:31:38.039 --> 00:31:43.559
Yeah, that's the other reason I don't want them to come back because Stephen Ruffoot would just melt them or turn one of them into a Zygon or something.

354
00:31:43.619 --> 00:31:45.839
Yeah, or they'd be getting divorced or something.

355
00:31:45.900 --> 00:31:46.740
Yeah, yeah.

356
00:31:46.799 --> 00:31:48.240
Divorced for no readily apparently.

357
00:31:48.359 --> 00:31:49.200
Yeah.

358
00:31:49.259 --> 00:31:56.220
No, I do think it's a perfect kind of story that can be left alone quite well.

359
00:31:56.279 --> 00:32:08.339
And I suppose there are a lot of things that you could say about that in Doctor Who that did come back and I probably like most of them, but I think seeing this in context of however many, 0 god, it's been like over 10 years, doesn't it?

360
00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:15.000
10 years later, you're like, it does feel very nice that these, you have the complete thing.

361
00:32:15.059 --> 00:32:16.140
It has a happy ending.

362
00:32:16.200 --> 00:32:18.420
People die, but not in horrible ways.

363
00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:33.839
Um, and yeah, I think them coming through that kind of uh, trauma, terror together is definitely the sort of thing that, you know, that uh, a new understanding of the other person for you have both survived, weird stuff that you can't talk to anyone else about, especially.

364
00:32:33.900 --> 00:32:40.319
And um, I think they do a really good job with the uh, makeup and the acting of Larry.

365
00:32:40.380 --> 00:32:46.140
So you definitely get the sense that he has become a, a, I don't necessarily grown up.

366
00:32:46.200 --> 00:32:50.759
That seems harsh, but you do see if you get the feeling that he's grown up in the interim in the year between.

367
00:32:50.819 --> 00:32:52.980
He does feel like a more put together person.

368
00:32:53.039 --> 00:32:55.200
And in a very short space of screen time there.

369
00:32:55.259 --> 00:32:56.460
So I really like how it's done.

370
00:32:56.519 --> 00:33:07.920
I'm glad you spotted that as well, because yeah, his hair looks a bit neater, his beard looks a bit neater. clothes are ironed, you know, it's just, it's just little, those little clues.

371
00:33:07.980 --> 00:33:24.119
Yeah, even though he's standing, he's standing with a sense of self-assurance that he didn't, he didn't have before, he seems like, yeah, he seems like I know who I am a lot more now, which, you know, again, could be partially due to the trauma as well as Sally's friendship slash romantic thing.

372
00:33:24.180 --> 00:33:25.740
It's like, oh, look at me.

373
00:33:25.799 --> 00:33:29.460
I have a person who can survive terrifying weird things and get on with life.

374
00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:30.059
Great.

375
00:33:30.119 --> 00:33:49.440
In fact, maybe there's a little bit of a sort of crossover because, you know, Sally's definitely the one who has hand in the, you know, in the relationship at the very beginning, like she wins in sort of any interaction between them, but she hasn't been able to let go and he has.

376
00:33:49.859 --> 00:33:54.240
And so he's moved on and grown up and she's stayed where she is.

377
00:33:54.359 --> 00:33:55.019
Yeah.

378
00:33:55.019 --> 00:34:01.559
So he's the one that's showing the emotional maturity, even though we, the audience, in our immature famishness.

379
00:34:01.619 --> 00:34:03.359
What the gosh darn dancers.

380
00:34:03.420 --> 00:34:05.099
But yeah, no, you're absolutely right.

381
00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:08.639
I think that isn't that is a nice, you know, an evening out.

382
00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:13.139
I know it's, uh, yeah, I think that, yeah, I do, I do really like that about it.

383
00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:16.320
Even though it would be a bit weird if he was the one who hadn't moved on, that would make sense.

384
00:34:16.380 --> 00:34:21.000
But it's, uh, it's nice to see that he's the more emotionally well adjusted one.

385
00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:23.579
Given that rule is normally given to the woman.

386
00:34:33.780 --> 00:34:42.780
I really like the way that a whole bunch of mysteries are set up the start and that we get answers to them all in succession things.

387
00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:48.360
Like, the teaser is that, you know, tearing wallpaper off the wall and having someone speak to you like that.

388
00:34:48.420 --> 00:34:49.860
That's an amazing teaser.

389
00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:51.960
I don't know if there's ever been a better one than that.

390
00:34:52.019 --> 00:34:58.980
And then to have the delivery of the letter, and the weirdness of letter, 1st of all, it's to her.

391
00:34:59.099 --> 00:35:01.980
And then you solely realise it's from the path.

392
00:35:02.039 --> 00:35:04.500
Well, not solar is, but it's been a very long time coming.

393
00:35:04.619 --> 00:35:09.599
And it's from his grandmother and you're suddenly like, 0 my gosh.

394
00:35:09.659 --> 00:35:18.059
And then he confirms that he's the grandson and that was just the beats of that scene or series of scenes. series of scenes.

395
00:35:18.119 --> 00:35:20.519
The beats of their, of the, the slow reveal.

396
00:35:20.579 --> 00:35:21.900
It's just it's so satisfying.

397
00:35:21.960 --> 00:35:25.860
And they do it again with the DVD extras, setting it up.

398
00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:32.219
And then when you finally get the conversation happening, it's like, oh, the 1st time seeing that, it's like, this is, this is brilliant.

399
00:35:32.280 --> 00:35:33.000
This is genius.

400
00:35:33.119 --> 00:35:36.420
How weird and bizarre and exciting is this to watch?

401
00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:39.360
And it's a bloody conversation with the computer screen, effectively they're having.

402
00:35:39.420 --> 00:35:40.739
This is so good.

403
00:35:40.800 --> 00:35:43.199
It's really incredible, isn't it?

404
00:35:43.260 --> 00:35:45.480
I think that 1st scene that you mentioned.

405
00:35:45.539 --> 00:36:04.920
Once you watch it for the 2nd time and you know who the letter's from, seeing Kathy in the background of that scene as well, is really amazing because she's there listening and sort of trying to work out how to leave and things and trying not to be seen.

406
00:36:04.920 --> 00:36:09.840
And I think that just adds a sort of extra kind of Frisson to that scene.

407
00:36:09.900 --> 00:36:10.920
Indeed.

408
00:36:10.980 --> 00:36:17.699
And it's another use of that big mirror you were talking about earlier, Liz, because that's how Kathy is observing the conversation.

409
00:36:18.360 --> 00:36:28.980
I have to confess that in 2007, before we all had computers in our pockets, when I 1st watched it and didn't immediately have access to Wikipedia or things, I thought, is that Daniel Craig?

410
00:36:29.099 --> 00:36:30.719
No.

411
00:36:32.219 --> 00:36:36.840
It's a good choice to have him look weird and old-fashioned as well.

412
00:36:36.900 --> 00:36:38.699
Like he's out of time.

413
00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:39.719
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

414
00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:43.260
And then the DVD extras.

415
00:36:43.320 --> 00:36:51.420
I mean, we've barely talked about the doctor and Martha and obviously they're barely in it, but the DVD extras conversation is incredible, isn't it?

416
00:36:51.480 --> 00:37:03.900
And the way that Sally nearly starts to have that conversation with the doctor, when she's in the back room at Bantos, just listening to sort of one DVD extra.

417
00:37:03.960 --> 00:37:08.280
And then when the conversation actually happens and we've already heard that bit.

418
00:37:08.340 --> 00:37:11.159
It's so incredibly well done.

419
00:37:11.219 --> 00:37:20.099
And even the fact that, um, you feel like that they could hear each other, that surely they can hear each other.

420
00:37:20.159 --> 00:37:28.679
And partly it is because David Tennant, even though the doctor is just reading from a transcript, Tennant is acting as if he can hear her speak.

421
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:30.420
Yes, yeah.

422
00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:38.940
Yeah, and that's that's another one of the business bets where you get to feel clever because you're like, 0 my god, it's a conversation, but they don't work it out till later.

423
00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:41.400
So you're like, aha, I was told that earlier.

424
00:37:41.460 --> 00:37:45.659
So I knew it before you, Sally Sparrow. which is very helpful.

425
00:37:45.719 --> 00:38:01.440
There's some of the, some of the bits with, one of the reasons that I really, really love this episode and I feel very chill watching it is because there's no bits between Martha and the doctor that make me wince and go, why are you being so mean to Martha?

426
00:38:01.500 --> 00:38:02.940
Kind of dumb.

427
00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:04.260
It's just Martha.

428
00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:06.000
Martha's my RTD companion.

429
00:38:06.059 --> 00:38:07.800
Martha's the one that I empathised with.

430
00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:16.800
And to feel that your identification figure is just being mean to all the time or every other episode.

431
00:38:16.860 --> 00:38:18.539
It doesn't make you feel good.

432
00:38:18.599 --> 00:38:20.460
It was not, it was not very happy for me.

433
00:38:20.519 --> 00:38:29.639
I have to ignore those bits from watching season 3, which is really annoying because this is my favourite RTD season and yet I have to go, la la, la, it didn't happen. at some point in almost every episode.

434
00:38:29.699 --> 00:38:36.480
Yeah, which is why it had terrible, terrible knock on effects because I don't really care all much about Donna.

435
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:42.539
And the reason being, when we've got a new one, I was like, well, I know not to get attached to you because I know what happened last time.

436
00:38:42.599 --> 00:38:47.579
And also, I don't want to get attached to you because you were really mean to the one that I loved.

437
00:38:47.639 --> 00:38:50.219
So I'm not going to have any feelings for this new one.

438
00:38:50.340 --> 00:38:58.619
I was doing a doctor there because I had felt betrayed at the way that my companion had been treated.

439
00:38:58.679 --> 00:39:03.059
But we've got, it's okay, it's because she's in it for like a minute here.

440
00:39:03.119 --> 00:39:04.440
At least at least we have that.

441
00:39:04.500 --> 00:39:06.420
She does have a bow and arrow, which is very cool.

442
00:39:06.420 --> 00:39:14.039
And she does annoyingly have my favourite outfit of hers for that one scene in 1969, which is like, god damn it, really?

443
00:39:14.099 --> 00:39:14.880
One scene.

444
00:39:16.260 --> 00:39:17.880
But yeah.

445
00:39:17.940 --> 00:39:22.320
So that was quite pleasing in this, yeah. beloved Martha.

446
00:39:22.380 --> 00:39:37.019
We've been talking a lot over the last few episodes about how mean the doctor is to Martha and how unpleasant and difficult it is to watch. and and even when he's not actively being mean to her.

447
00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:51.719
Like when he kind of welcomes her on board at the end of the Lazarus experiment and he does seem to tone all of that sort of stuff down, she ends up, you know, having to scrub floors or yeah, she has to work in a shop.

448
00:39:51.780 --> 00:39:57.059
And she just seems to have a really undeserved bad time of it.

449
00:39:57.119 --> 00:40:01.980
And Freema is so charming, like just so charming.

450
00:40:02.039 --> 00:40:06.659
I mean, I just think that Martha lights up the screen in every scene she's in.

451
00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:09.960
I think she's just wonderful, massively underappreciated.

452
00:40:10.079 --> 00:40:13.380
Yep, I absolutely adore her.

453
00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:23.340
And um, Liz, you may, you may have heard on the show before I occasionally mentioned that I do, I do wrestling as a sport and we've got a, um, we've got a club here in Sydney.

454
00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:27.960
We've got a sister club in Melbourne and I'm fascinated to find out where this is going.

455
00:40:28.199 --> 00:40:43.440
Well, after the Melbourne Club got set up, some of them flew up here for our Christmas party, and I met one of them, and I think I must have been wearing a Doctor Who badge or something, and so I weren't wearing your Bonnie Langford outfit.

456
00:40:43.500 --> 00:40:44.519
I wasn't wearing my ballet.

457
00:40:44.579 --> 00:40:46.260
No, well, I only found that again recently.

458
00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:47.400
It's been in the garage.

459
00:40:47.460 --> 00:40:53.579
Um, time of the Rani Bonnie Langford outfit.

460
00:40:54.420 --> 00:40:58.320
I was going to ask, because it's like, is it the pink one or the blue one because I assume it must be one of those two.

461
00:40:58.380 --> 00:41:01.559
Yep, yeah, pink stripy shirt and white boots.

462
00:41:01.619 --> 00:41:05.280
Anyway, um, so I'm I'm like 5 foot four.

463
00:41:05.340 --> 00:41:06.119
So I'm not very tall.

464
00:41:06.179 --> 00:41:11.219
One of the Melbourne wrestlers. is just shy of 6 foot.

465
00:41:11.280 --> 00:41:12.719
Quite burly.

466
00:41:12.780 --> 00:41:15.900
Sees me wearing, I think Doctor Who shirt, Doctor Who badge.

467
00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:16.440
I'm not sure.

468
00:41:16.500 --> 00:41:18.539
He's just like, oh, are you a Doctor Who fan?

469
00:41:18.599 --> 00:41:19.079
I said, yes.

470
00:41:19.139 --> 00:41:20.579
And he said, the old one or the new one?

471
00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:21.300
I said, oh, both.

472
00:41:21.360 --> 00:41:22.800
He's like, I really like the new one.

473
00:41:22.860 --> 00:41:24.059
I'm like, oh, okay.

474
00:41:24.119 --> 00:41:25.500
He said, and you know what?

475
00:41:25.559 --> 00:41:27.059
They need to bring back Martha.

476
00:41:27.119 --> 00:41:34.260
Martha was, so I've got this, you know, 3 foot across. 6 foot tall guy extolling how?

477
00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:37.440
Martha was the companion the doctor needed.

478
00:41:37.500 --> 00:41:41.280
He didn't need someone else to just tell him how brilliant he was.

479
00:41:41.340 --> 00:41:43.320
No, he needed someone to snap him out of it.

480
00:41:43.380 --> 00:41:46.019
And, you know, be his friend no matter what.

481
00:41:46.079 --> 00:41:47.400
And that's who Martha is.

482
00:41:47.400 --> 00:41:50.579
She gets stuck in 1969 and works in a shop.

483
00:41:50.639 --> 00:41:52.139
Now, she doesn't, she doesn't just take it.

484
00:41:52.199 --> 00:41:54.360
She complains about it, but she sticks by him.

485
00:41:54.420 --> 00:41:57.360
And he said, I've got the leather jacket.

486
00:41:57.420 --> 00:41:59.099
I've got the red leather jacket.

487
00:41:59.159 --> 00:42:00.960
I found it in a market in my size.

488
00:42:01.019 --> 00:42:04.019
It's a woman's leather jacket, but it looks good on me.

489
00:42:04.619 --> 00:42:19.980
I just thought because I always liked Martha, but that gave me an idea that, you know, of course, Doctor Who fans were in our sphere and we hear people say, oh, you know, like no one likes the space pirates kind of thing.

490
00:42:20.039 --> 00:42:21.000
No one likes this.

491
00:42:21.059 --> 00:42:26.699
The Time Monster gang you did at the beginning, Nathan, you know, people will say no one likes a Time Monster.

492
00:42:26.760 --> 00:42:31.260
Well, I think it's pretty fair to say all 3 of us really like the time monster and not in an ironic way.

493
00:42:31.320 --> 00:42:32.280
I know.

494
00:42:32.280 --> 00:42:41.820
Yeah, I do feel like there's there's quite a, if you admit to liking the Time Monster, Then suddenly a lot of people come out of the woodwork and are like, yeah, it's a good one.

495
00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:52.019
I like, yes, yeah, I feel, yeah, admit the Doctor Who stories that you, you like, unless it's monster pelodon, in which case, you should keep that to yourself.

496
00:42:52.079 --> 00:42:53.400
That's terrible.

497
00:42:53.460 --> 00:42:55.019
Oh, God, I'm gatekeep.

498
00:42:55.079 --> 00:42:57.179
I'm so sorry.

499
00:42:57.239 --> 00:42:57.900
I'm sorry.

500
00:42:57.960 --> 00:43:00.960
But I mean, Martha has that status, doesn't she?

501
00:43:01.019 --> 00:43:08.940
Like, she's in series 2, which everyone, you know, really remembers, and then series 4, which went incredibly well.

502
00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:14.760
But Freemer is, you know, really something and I really love series 3 as well.

503
00:43:14.820 --> 00:43:21.000
Yeah, the problem is it's supposed to the one I most love of RTDs, and it's the one that makes me angry.

504
00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:23.579
Because I want the season.

505
00:43:23.639 --> 00:43:31.260
What I should really do is get is rip DVDs for all the episodes and just cut out the little bits that I find that are just too much.

506
00:43:31.320 --> 00:43:33.300
And then I will have a beautiful season.

507
00:43:33.360 --> 00:43:42.719
It's just, 0 man, I get so teed off at the end of it, when the sound of drums, she has some of the greatest companion scenes of all time with her coming down to the earth.

508
00:43:42.780 --> 00:43:51.659
I'm coming back and walking away into this terrifying dystopia of little human balls that her entire world has become.

509
00:43:51.719 --> 00:43:53.760
And she walks around the world for a year.

510
00:43:53.820 --> 00:43:58.860
Basically trying to convince people that the doctor's absurd plan is going to work and she does it.

511
00:43:58.920 --> 00:44:00.780
And what does she get at the end?

512
00:44:00.840 --> 00:44:02.519
She's like, you know what?

513
00:44:02.579 --> 00:44:03.179
I was good.

514
00:44:03.239 --> 00:44:04.800
Does the doctor agree with her?

515
00:44:04.860 --> 00:44:06.539
Does the doctor say anything lovely to her?

516
00:44:06.599 --> 00:44:11.760
No, he just sort of stands there like an utter chump and I want to...

517
00:44:11.760 --> 00:44:13.679
Bad things to happen to him at that moment?

518
00:44:13.739 --> 00:44:17.940
How dare you let Arthur walk away without telling her how brilliant she is?

519
00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:22.980
Gosh, I, oh, I, Still, still not happy.

520
00:44:23.039 --> 00:44:23.760
Still not happy.

521
00:44:23.820 --> 00:44:26.639
In fact, let me continue the strands a little further.

522
00:44:26.699 --> 00:44:30.599
Not 5 or 6 episodes into the next season.

523
00:44:30.659 --> 00:44:42.659
We get the, some Taran 2 parter, where the doctor thinks for a moment that Donna's, Donna's going to leave him when she actually just wants to pop off home and see her dad and grandfather, and he's into this big speech about, oh, you were brilliant.

524
00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:43.260
I love you so much.

525
00:44:43.320 --> 00:44:43.860
You're so great.

526
00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:44.760
Oh, please don't go.

527
00:44:44.820 --> 00:44:45.659
It going to be terrible without you.

528
00:44:45.719 --> 00:44:48.300
It's like, you haven't even been with her for half a season.

529
00:44:48.360 --> 00:44:50.519
She hasn't done very much at all.

530
00:44:50.579 --> 00:44:58.139
And Martha, Martha spent a year of her life with the world destroyed, her family could be murdered at any moment.

531
00:44:58.139 --> 00:44:59.820
And you say nothing to her.

532
00:44:59.940 --> 00:45:02.940
I mean, seriously, geez, what's wrong with you, man?

533
00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:04.619
What is wrong with you, doctor?

534
00:45:04.679 --> 00:45:05.880
And this is why.

535
00:45:06.179 --> 00:45:08.880
I have some issues with the 10th doctor.

536
00:45:10.559 --> 00:45:18.000
Some very well-balanced kept under the roof issues that I don't let out very often.

537
00:45:18.480 --> 00:45:21.239
All of that sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

538
00:45:21.300 --> 00:45:22.199
Thank you.

539
00:45:22.260 --> 00:45:24.059
I like invalidated.

540
00:45:24.119 --> 00:45:29.579
It makes me feel that my unreasonableness is, you know, is reasonable really, quietly, quietly reasonable.

541
00:45:29.639 --> 00:45:37.440
Yeah, we fans all have our one thing which a lot of other fans don't get until we describe it as the way you've described it.

542
00:45:37.500 --> 00:45:40.380
I know people go, ah, for me, it's black org.

543
00:45:41.820 --> 00:45:45.840
But I shan't go into that again here, you know, we've got a time limit.

544
00:45:45.900 --> 00:45:52.500
Yeah, it just sucks me it's been it's been 10 years and I still am so pissed off.

545
00:45:52.559 --> 00:45:54.480
It's like, what do you need?

546
00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:55.679
I get over it.

547
00:45:56.099 --> 00:46:01.199
We need 17 box sets from Big Finish to rectify this, quite frankly.

548
00:46:01.260 --> 00:46:02.699
I think that's what we need.

549
00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:25.139
But my my thinking has always been, it would have been so good to have the family of blood, human nature, 2 parter, as the 1st 2 parter, because that's kind of the emotional crescendo of their relationship, and it's kind of the, her feelings are acknowledged, and it's kind of like it's not going to happen, but we've reached a state of equilibrium with it.

550
00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:27.900
But it takes us too long to get there.

551
00:46:27.960 --> 00:46:28.380
Yeah.

552
00:46:28.380 --> 00:46:39.420
Yeah, and so as such, sort of the brilliance of Freemer's performance has to get through this sort of pining that the script asks her to do.

553
00:46:40.800 --> 00:46:47.880
I think by now, like by this point in the season, though, like the doctor trusts her.

554
00:46:49.079 --> 00:47:06.659
And we spoke last week about, there's just a couple of times where the doctor properly thanks her for all that she's been through during that two-parter, and it shouldn't come as as much of a relief as it does.

555
00:47:06.719 --> 00:47:07.320
Yeah.

556
00:47:07.380 --> 00:47:31.260
But earlier in the season where he's being alternately sort of standoffish and showboating, he wouldn't have trusted her in quite the same way, not because she didn't deserve it, because obviously, you know, she saves his life in the 1st episode, but just for that sort of rather ill considered doctor art to work at all.

557
00:47:31.320 --> 00:47:34.559
It does need, I think, to come later in the season.

558
00:47:34.619 --> 00:47:35.519
Yes.

559
00:47:35.579 --> 00:47:44.400
I do love it in this one when she, when Billy is confused by the doctor's explanation and Martha just says, oh, just nod when he stops for breath.

560
00:47:45.300 --> 00:48:01.559
In fact, one of the things about Stephen Moffatt is he tends not to participate in any of that sort of stuff and he didn't really do it in his season 2 episode, like that big kind of towering love affair that goes all the way through season 2 Moffatt really isn't having a bar of it.

561
00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:11.880
And here there's just much more sort of screwball comedy in the way that the 2 of them interact, like the 2 the 2 scenes we get with them together.

562
00:48:11.940 --> 00:48:13.019
Yeah, yeah.

563
00:48:13.079 --> 00:48:16.260
And tenants on fire, he gets some really brilliant dialogue there.

564
00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:17.340
That thing about hens.

565
00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:19.500
I've learned to avoid ends.

566
00:48:19.559 --> 00:48:23.519
I think he's just hilarious. funny and kind of horrible.

567
00:48:23.579 --> 00:48:26.039
One of the things I'd forgotten.

568
00:48:26.760 --> 00:48:28.860
Did he just suggest?

569
00:48:28.860 --> 00:48:32.699
I had to... a quicker you wait and pop subtitles.

570
00:48:32.699 --> 00:48:36.840
I was like, oh, my God, how can I not remember?

571
00:48:38.760 --> 00:48:46.199
And in that last scene, I love the fact that it kind of harks back to just not when he pauses for breath.

572
00:48:46.260 --> 00:48:48.539
Martha's the one who has to keep him on task.

573
00:48:48.599 --> 00:48:53.159
Well, and Martha's really enjoying travelling with a doctor at this point too.

574
00:48:53.460 --> 00:48:58.079
That wonderful line about going to the moon landing 4 times.

575
00:48:58.139 --> 00:48:59.460
We went 4 times.

576
00:48:59.519 --> 00:49:01.739
And I love her delivery.

577
00:49:01.800 --> 00:49:06.599
Whenever she's not being a very good girl who's doing all the emotional labour for everyone else.

578
00:49:06.719 --> 00:49:09.900
When she gets to be funny or slightly naughty.

579
00:49:09.960 --> 00:49:11.460
She's wonderful at it.

580
00:49:11.519 --> 00:49:12.719
She's so terrific.

581
00:49:12.780 --> 00:49:18.719
Yeah, and she was happy there, which is like, oh, yeah, so we get to see why you travel with a doctor in one line and here.

582
00:49:18.780 --> 00:49:29.820
This is the reason why 42, not the greatest episode ever, but I still really love it. because the doctor and Martha and their relationship is perfect in it in every way.

583
00:49:29.880 --> 00:49:33.059
There is no mention of putting Martha down.

584
00:49:33.119 --> 00:49:35.579
There is no pining from Martha.

585
00:49:35.639 --> 00:49:44.400
There is just this really gorgeous teamworky thing going on with a little bit of snark, and the god, the level of trust is so beautiful.

586
00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:51.900
When Martha gets trapped away in the duda, and the doctor's saying, you know, I will get you and her yelling at him, and it's just, you feel it there.

587
00:49:51.960 --> 00:49:53.099
He cares about her.

588
00:49:53.159 --> 00:49:59.219
He cares about her in a way that's not then undercut by him being a bit of an ass 2 scenes later.

589
00:49:59.280 --> 00:50:02.940
And then when she tries to save him with the burning thing and it's like, why?

590
00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:08.880
I could have had a whole season with this relationship just or have resolved the thing as you suggested.

591
00:50:08.940 --> 00:50:09.719
That'd be brilliant.

592
00:50:09.780 --> 00:50:10.860
That's a great solution.

593
00:50:10.920 --> 00:50:12.059
Why didn't they do that?

594
00:50:12.119 --> 00:50:23.579
I mean, it might have been because they didn't want to break up the pinnacle run of human nature through sound of drums or if you're being very generous last of the time lords, which I still see as peak, peak RTD.

595
00:50:23.639 --> 00:50:25.199
That's the that's the top bit.

596
00:50:25.260 --> 00:50:28.679
Um, despite, as I said, cutting cutting out the lot of things.

597
00:50:28.739 --> 00:50:30.420
Oh, it's so frustrating.

598
00:50:30.480 --> 00:50:31.500
How dare they?

599
00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:33.119
How dare they felt?

600
00:50:33.119 --> 00:50:34.500
They're completely to my wishes.

601
00:50:36.659 --> 00:50:48.239
See, it's funny with Stephen Moffatt writing this one and, you know, not presenting that element of the unrequited love element, because I do remember an interview with Stephen Moffatt.

602
00:50:48.300 --> 00:50:49.800
And I think it was about coupling.

603
00:50:49.800 --> 00:51:00.059
And it was at the time when coupling was being labelled as the UK version of Friends because it was 3 men and 3 women and, you know, they met in a pub instead of a coffee shop.

604
00:51:00.059 --> 00:51:03.000
And he responded with the greatest of respect.

605
00:51:03.059 --> 00:51:07.739
I don't like that comparison because he said at the centre of my show.

606
00:51:07.800 --> 00:51:12.900
There is a couple who gets together in episode one and the show is about their relationship and the people around their relationship.

607
00:51:12.960 --> 00:51:24.300
Friends seems to be about a will they won't they thing about a couple who takes several years to get together and then are on the rocks and he's like, I just find that so unrealistic.

608
00:51:24.360 --> 00:51:30.539
I do not think they would have had these feelings for each other without without the discussion coming up very early on.

609
00:51:30.599 --> 00:51:32.340
That doesn't happen in real life.

610
00:51:32.400 --> 00:51:34.980
And when that does happen, that's not a healthy situation.

611
00:51:35.099 --> 00:51:36.420
Yeah, he's absolutely right.

612
00:51:36.480 --> 00:51:43.679
Yeah, and so, I mean, I don't want to put word in words in Stephen Moffatt's mouth, but, you know, maybe he was uncomfortable with that.

613
00:51:43.739 --> 00:51:49.860
Maybe he could, maybe he felt he didn't want to just try and address that in 2 scenes of this episode.

614
00:51:49.920 --> 00:51:53.460
But then again, we've just had human nature, which was a resolution.

615
00:51:53.519 --> 00:51:55.199
It goes on, but there's a resolution.

616
00:51:55.260 --> 00:52:01.019
But it does mean that when Larry says in that final scene, look, is it getting in the way of other things?

617
00:52:01.139 --> 00:52:08.219
It's a very upfront thing to say, but it's a natural human thing to say of, I think no, I think we need to talk about this.

618
00:52:08.280 --> 00:52:11.579
We're not we're not just going to sit at each other and make eyes across the room.

619
00:52:11.639 --> 00:52:12.840
We're 2 adults.

620
00:52:12.900 --> 00:52:14.519
Let's talk about our feelings kind of thing.

621
00:52:14.579 --> 00:52:16.139
And everyone in this episode.

622
00:52:16.199 --> 00:52:23.519
All the adults talk about their feelings like Kathy wants to tell Sally she's had a good life and she's been happy and...

623
00:52:23.519 --> 00:52:25.260
She wants to tell Larry that she hates him.

624
00:52:26.820 --> 00:52:36.659
But, you know, it's these 4 adults being faced with the fact that if they're not honest about their emotions now, like time could take away the opportunity, I suppose.

625
00:53:03.719 --> 00:53:07.559
Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week.

626
00:53:07.619 --> 00:53:13.260
We'll be back next week to talk about Russell T. Davey's favourite Blake 7 episode, Utopia.

627
00:53:13.320 --> 00:53:23.219
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcast and you can keep up with us at FlightthroughEntirety.com, flights through entirety on Facebook and at FTE podcast on Twitter.

628
00:53:23.280 --> 00:53:39.179
You can also find our series 11 flashcast, Jody IntoTara at JodyintoTara.com and at Jody IntoTara on Twitter and our James Bond Commentary Podcast Bondfinger at bondfinger.com at bondfinger on Facebook and at bondfingercast on Twitter.

629
00:53:39.239 --> 00:53:41.280
Liz, where can people find you?

630
00:53:41.400 --> 00:53:47.639
They can find me at Verge Podcast, which I can only remember for the Twitter for, Verge Podcast.

631
00:53:47.699 --> 00:53:48.300
You could Google it.

632
00:53:48.360 --> 00:53:53.219
Please Google all these things because I don't know the addresses or Twitter handles offhand.

633
00:53:53.340 --> 00:53:55.440
And you can find me on Hammerhouse, a podcast.

634
00:53:55.500 --> 00:53:57.420
Um, Verities Doctor Who.

635
00:53:57.480 --> 00:54:06.179
Hammer is discussing all the Hammer Horror movies from Quick Mass Experiment through to the Devil Daughter with Paul Cornell.

636
00:54:06.420 --> 00:54:08.639
He's written for Doctor Who.

637
00:54:08.760 --> 00:54:12.239
I am just throwing that out there because, you know, we sometimes do a Doctor Who jokes.

638
00:54:12.300 --> 00:54:12.900
Hey, hey.

639
00:54:12.960 --> 00:54:14.880
We try not to very often.

640
00:54:14.940 --> 00:54:17.699
We try to remember that it's not a Doctor Who podcast.

641
00:54:17.760 --> 00:54:20.519
Even though Peter Gushing's in a lot of them.

642
00:54:21.480 --> 00:54:24.539
Yeah, we try to do that on Bond Finger as well.

643
00:54:24.599 --> 00:54:26.099
Never works, never ever works.

644
00:54:26.159 --> 00:54:26.820
Yay.

645
00:54:26.880 --> 00:54:27.179
Oh, glad.

646
00:54:27.239 --> 00:54:27.780
Oh, glad never.

647
00:54:27.840 --> 00:54:28.920
Glad other people have that problem.

648
00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:30.420
All right.

649
00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:36.539
So until next time, may you have more meat cutes in your life than Sally Sparrow has in a single episode.

650
00:54:36.599 --> 00:54:39.000
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

651
00:54:39.059 --> 00:54:39.719
Good night.

652
00:54:39.780 --> 00:54:40.260
Good night.

653
00:54:43.440 --> 00:54:48.599
That was Flight 3 Entirety, starring Nathan Bodley, Brendan Jones, and Elizabeth Miles.

654
00:54:48.659 --> 00:54:52.260
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings performance by Jane or Berg.

655
00:54:52.380 --> 00:54:58.739
This episode, Flirting Wittily, was recorded on the 25th of August 2019 and released on the 17th of November.

656
00:55:02.699 --> 00:55:08.699
Don't tell Stephen, Dan, or Colin this, but we've hidden an Easter egg in a recent episode of New to Who.

657
00:55:08.820 --> 00:55:14.579
If you play it backwards, you can hear Richard and Todd having a lively disagreement about German expressionism.

658
00:55:16.079 --> 00:55:33.420
Well, we will talk more about this, I think, probably in our last of the Time Lords episode, because I feel strongly that Martha gets the chance to come and critique the way that she's been treated.

659
00:55:33.539 --> 00:55:38.280
Like, she doesn't just sort of slink off into the night or anything.

660
00:55:38.340 --> 00:55:43.019
And it's that moment in the episode where she comes back into the Tartars.

661
00:55:43.980 --> 00:55:44.760
And she tells him.

662
00:55:44.820 --> 00:55:45.179
Yeah.

663
00:55:45.239 --> 00:55:45.719
Yeah.

664
00:55:45.719 --> 00:55:46.260
Yeah.

665
00:55:46.320 --> 00:55:49.440
Yeah. still annoyed about it.

666
00:55:49.500 --> 00:55:51.480
But yes, I'm glad she came back in and said that.

667
00:55:51.539 --> 00:56:13.079
And I know that there are other fans with what I can, it's, God, a perfectly reasonable perspective of they found that moment very empowering and that moment really spoke to them and how they felt and the sense of them being stuck in bad relationships and having the strength to say what you felt and to walk away from it and that really matters to them.

668
00:56:13.139 --> 00:56:15.960
But obviously there's not my perspective.

669
00:56:16.019 --> 00:56:16.800
That's not what I want.

670
00:56:16.860 --> 00:56:19.559
I want my identification figure to be treated with love and joy.

671
00:56:19.619 --> 00:56:24.179
But, you know, that's a perfectly a valid way of looking at it too.

672
00:56:24.239 --> 00:56:30.179
It's just, um, it's just not pandering to my preferences, um, which means it's bad.

673
00:56:30.360 --> 00:56:33.119
No, no, that's how Doctor Who works.

674
00:56:33.179 --> 00:56:34.320
Yes, yeah.

675
00:56:34.380 --> 00:56:37.800
If it's not for me, then it's not for the fans.

676
00:56:37.920 --> 00:56:39.059
So it's not good.

677
00:56:39.119 --> 00:56:39.719
Yeah.

678
00:56:39.780 --> 00:56:44.460
I am the representative of the majority of fandom, so damn well better people I want.

679
00:56:44.519 --> 00:56:48.840
But I actually had a point I was going to hear and I've completely forgotten what it is.

680
00:56:48.960 --> 00:56:51.000
So I shall I shall end it there.

681
00:56:51.000 --> 00:56:56.760
My continuing ranting at that, why is Martha not treated properly by the doctor?

682
00:56:56.820 --> 00:56:58.320
So cruel.

683
00:56:58.380 --> 00:56:59.280
Cruel and harsh.

684
00:56:59.340 --> 00:57:00.119
I have feelings.

685
00:57:00.780 --> 00:57:02.400
Brilliant.

686
00:57:02.460 --> 00:57:03.900
I'm sorry.

687
00:57:03.960 --> 00:57:04.679
I'm sorry.

688
00:57:04.739 --> 00:57:06.539
No, that's good.

689
00:57:06.599 --> 00:57:13.800
Particularly since, you know, you're here for one episode of the season and the more people that we can hear about this because it's super problematic.

690
00:57:13.860 --> 00:57:15.420
I think it is super problematic.

691
00:57:15.480 --> 00:57:23.099
Do you want a crappy relationship to be the lens through which like the 2 main characters in the show?

692
00:57:23.159 --> 00:57:24.420
Do you know what I mean?

693
00:57:25.260 --> 00:57:32.219
And the thing is, it's depending on your perspective and who you are as a viewer, it can jump the other way as well.

694
00:57:32.280 --> 00:57:37.199
Instead of being like me and like, why are you being so awful to the person that I really like and judging the doctor.

695
00:57:37.260 --> 00:57:43.739
And this is why I often don't enjoy the 10th doctor because I'm so often reminded of, you are mean to someone I like.

696
00:57:43.800 --> 00:58:07.079
Um, you can jump the other way where you're more attached to the 10th doctor and are like, I don't like this pining person who's come along and is pining all the time and they should just get over it, which, um, yeah, which makes them dislike Martha, for terrible reasons, because obviously the doctor is in the wrong, but still, it's, um, it's, it's, it's not good either way, and I don't, I don't, I, yeah.

697
00:58:07.139 --> 00:58:13.019
I really, I really am just very upset. that I'm still upset about it this much.

698
00:58:13.079 --> 00:58:15.900
It's like, I keep them suppressed these feelings.

699
00:58:17.219 --> 00:58:19.500
I mean, I think you're absolutely right.

700
00:58:19.559 --> 00:58:25.260
And I think it's part of the reason that the 10th doctor and Donna works so well together.

701
00:58:25.320 --> 00:58:40.199
Not just because I think the scripts are very good next year, but, you know, in David Tennant's 1st season, the Doctor and Rose's relationship is deliberately written as uncomfortable for a viewer.

702
00:58:40.260 --> 00:58:43.260
You know, we're meant to find them a bit arrogant and a bit cocky.

703
00:58:43.320 --> 00:58:43.860
Yeah.

704
00:58:43.860 --> 00:58:52.980
And then this relationship is written in the way, the way you've just described as well, which is a bit a bit, it's a bit tough to watch.

705
00:58:53.219 --> 00:58:59.639
And then you get Catherine Tate coming along and there's the mission statement right up front that...

706
00:58:59.699 --> 00:59:01.139
We're not doing any of that stuff.

707
00:59:01.199 --> 00:59:02.460
Yeah, we're not doing any of that.

708
00:59:03.179 --> 00:59:13.320
I don't think he's ever said it, but I think there was an understanding during the making of season 3 series 3 that they've taken this in the wrong...

709
00:59:13.380 --> 00:59:22.679
Not even, I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with the idea, but just the execution and the way they've done it and the pacing of it.

710
00:59:22.739 --> 00:59:24.179
It just goes wrong.

711
00:59:24.239 --> 00:59:24.960
Yeah.

712
00:59:26.219 --> 00:59:29.400
But then by the time season 4 comes around, it's too late.

713
00:59:29.460 --> 00:59:32.400
I will forgive you 10th doctor.

714
00:59:32.460 --> 00:59:36.059
You're stuck in the judgy pale forever.

715
00:59:36.900 --> 00:59:48.360
And then the episode that's meant to be Martha in space just becomes about, you know, Freema Adjumen having to crawl around in a muddy pit while Catherine Tate figures out some dates.

716
00:59:48.420 --> 00:59:50.519
And a fish drown.

717
00:59:50.579 --> 00:59:52.320
And the pounders, the fish drowns.

718
00:59:53.159 --> 00:59:54.840
I don't know.

719
00:59:54.900 --> 00:59:56.519
I haven't seen it for so long.

720
00:59:57.000 --> 00:59:59.699
Is that good or not still?

721
00:59:59.760 --> 01:00:01.739
I mean, like, see, Galaxy Prio again?

722
01:00:01.800 --> 01:00:02.519
That's nice.

723
01:00:02.579 --> 01:00:09.300
And there's a really cute woman where they sort of surround her and like poke her curiously, as an expression on her face is just adorable.

724
01:00:09.360 --> 01:00:14.579
Um, but yeah, that was uh, I love her turning torchwood, though. really enjoyed that.

725
01:00:14.639 --> 01:00:21.179
And the way that Captain Jack was like, the way Captain Jack and Martha were, that's more what I wanted.

726
01:00:21.239 --> 01:00:23.940
Their relationship in torture was perfect.

727
01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:27.480
This suddenly made me...

728
01:00:27.539 --> 01:00:29.519
She really elevated torchwood for me.

729
01:00:29.579 --> 01:00:31.139
So much so.

730
01:00:31.199 --> 01:00:32.699
I didn't finish season one of Torture.

731
01:00:32.760 --> 01:00:36.420
I started again with season 2 and I just stopped watching after Martha left.

732
01:00:36.480 --> 01:00:43.260
Like I watched one episode after she left and just went, And then I did watch Children of Earth, but yeah, that's it.

733
01:00:43.860 --> 01:00:47.099
Yeah, you made a wise decision.

734
01:00:48.000 --> 01:00:52.139
But yeah, she really brought a missing heart to the series.

735
01:00:52.199 --> 01:00:55.260
Yeah, everyone sort of hates each other.

736
01:00:55.320 --> 01:00:58.559
She really felt like she fitted in as well, surprisingly well.

737
01:00:58.619 --> 01:01:00.840
And I think it really...

738
01:01:00.840 --> 01:01:05.280
And the vibe between her and Jack was just, 0 man, it was so relaxing.

739
01:01:05.340 --> 01:01:11.400
It was just so gorgeous to have a character I love in an environment where she was being treated with the respect that she deserved.

740
01:01:11.460 --> 01:01:15.300
And yeah, I like to relax watching television shows.

741
01:01:15.360 --> 01:01:16.619
I don't like to feel tenseisted.

742
01:01:16.679 --> 01:01:19.380
Whereas the next thing coming from that will hurt someone.

743
01:01:19.739 --> 01:01:23.940
At this point, James would come in and say, when are we doing the torchwood podcast?

744
01:01:24.000 --> 01:01:24.659
Yes.

745
01:01:24.719 --> 01:01:28.440
Well, the thing is, we did the Torchwood podcast, but then we reconned him.

746
01:01:28.500 --> 01:01:30.000
Okay, again, I remember it.

747
01:01:30.059 --> 01:01:30.780
No, that's right.

748
01:01:30.840 --> 01:01:32.400
All right.

749
01:01:32.460 --> 01:01:39.000
So I will do our closing thing and I will stop midway through it at some point to swear.

750
01:01:42.059 --> 01:01:42.960
Okay.

751
01:01:43.019 --> 01:01:45.239
Well, you're prepping that, something.

752
01:01:45.300 --> 01:01:49.500
We we, um, Liz, we recorded the Lazarus experiment earlier this evening.

753
01:01:49.559 --> 01:02:07.139
And I've just realised that this season has the 1st 2 parter by Helen Rainer, followed by a script by Stephen Greenhorn, neither of which are very fondly remembered, and then next season has the 1st 2 parter written by Helen Rainer, followed by a script by Stephen Greenhorn, neither of which are fondly remembered.

754
01:02:07.199 --> 01:02:08.099
What's greenhorns?

755
01:02:08.159 --> 01:02:09.300
The doctor's daughter.

756
01:02:09.420 --> 01:02:12.300
Yeah, where the fish trap.

757
01:02:12.360 --> 01:02:20.820
Fish traps. is bloody amazing in that scene, my dear, but the fish drowns.

758
01:02:20.880 --> 01:02:29.699
I know, but like she's having to do acting. opposite the fish. so bad In a dirty, smelly, muddy quarry.

759
01:02:29.760 --> 01:02:35.639
We'll give David and Catherine some, we'll give them the things to do, the Doctor Who things.

760
01:02:35.699 --> 01:02:39.000
I want you to moan at a drowned fish.

761
01:02:39.059 --> 01:02:40.199
Well, that's the thing.

762
01:02:40.260 --> 01:02:43.500
Russell T. Gap is in the writer's tale when he's planning this.

763
01:02:43.559 --> 01:02:47.460
He's like, this is going to be the Martha in, but this is going to be the Martha in Space Story.

764
01:02:47.519 --> 01:03:03.239
Like I've promised Freema a lost in space thing where, you know, Martha has to be really reliable and the doctor and Donna have to get her back and then 2 weeks later he says to he says to Ben Cook, oh no, I thought of the words the doctor's daughter and now we have to do it.

765
01:03:03.300 --> 01:03:06.420
And the only slot we've got is Martha in space, so I have to put them together.

766
01:03:06.480 --> 01:03:07.800
Freema, I'm so sorry.

767
01:03:07.860 --> 01:03:09.119
Oh my god.

768
01:03:09.179 --> 01:03:11.519
That's appalling.

769
01:03:11.760 --> 01:03:17.159
It's like, yeah, yeah, Russell, you're not too sorry to put midnight on the shelf, are you?

770
01:03:17.760 --> 01:03:19.679
That was very good though.

771
01:03:19.739 --> 01:03:21.360
Yes, that's true.

772
01:03:21.420 --> 01:03:22.199
Okay.

773
01:03:22.440 --> 01:03:24.960
I was just about to read the intro again.

774
01:03:25.019 --> 01:03:25.860
That's not do that.

775
01:03:25.920 --> 01:03:26.579
Okay.

776
01:03:27.360 --> 01:03:30.960
Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week.