WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:29:41 1 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:43.679 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight through Entirety, Chan, the only Doctor Who podcast with Perfect Malcasarian manners, though. 2 00:00:43.740 --> 00:00:45.299 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:45.359 --> 00:00:46.320 I'm Brendan. 4 00:00:46.380 --> 00:00:46.979 I'm Adam. 5 00:00:47.039 --> 00:00:51.899 Chan and I'm a self-secreting double malted Frappuccino for this one, dough. 6 00:00:53.579 --> 00:00:55.859 Well, the stars have gone out. 7 00:00:55.920 --> 00:01:01.380 The galaxies have collapsed in humanity's only hope lies, as always, with Derek Jacoby. 8 00:01:01.439 --> 00:01:06.000 Will we go gentle into that good night, or will we find a way to reach utopia? 9 00:01:27.060 --> 00:01:30.120 It's amazing what you can double bank, isn't it? 10 00:01:30.180 --> 00:01:39.000 Because this, I, well, I don't think I'm being too controversial to say, is marvellous and visually great and a wonderful script and was double banked with 42. 11 00:01:39.180 --> 00:01:43.140 Ah, which, as we heard a few weeks ago. 12 00:01:43.200 --> 00:01:51.540 I enjoyed a great deal better than a lot of the other everyone else. in like 42 because it's very straightforward. 13 00:01:51.599 --> 00:02:00.299 That's one of my issues with everything since the reboot is the self-knowingness of them all. 14 00:02:00.359 --> 00:02:14.699 Like, that's my, that's one of the only problems I have with utopia is that, and it's with, you know, I think most of the Davis and and Moffat era is there's a moment where they're running and it's like, oh, I've missed this. 15 00:02:14.759 --> 00:02:17.400 It's like, don't draw attention to the boring bits. 16 00:02:19.439 --> 00:02:23.039 Like, no one runs for because they're enjoying it. 17 00:02:23.099 --> 00:02:24.780 You're running away from monster people. 18 00:02:25.560 --> 00:02:30.780 He's had a whole season of torture, though, you see, I think. probably what he's missing. 19 00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:33.419 Yeah, just being in a cave, being depressed. 20 00:02:33.780 --> 00:02:37.800 Having to put up with Bern Gorman's grimacing. 21 00:02:37.919 --> 00:02:38.520 Yeah, yeah. 22 00:02:38.580 --> 00:02:42.719 Dodging the payloads from Mefanwi, the pterodactyl. 23 00:02:43.319 --> 00:02:52.979 But I think I think you're right, Brendan, in that, it does look amazing and it is, you know, Graham Harper again. 24 00:02:53.039 --> 00:02:54.419 How is he double banking it? 25 00:02:54.479 --> 00:02:55.800 Is he in 2 places at once? 26 00:02:55.860 --> 00:02:59.759 I believe they shot a little bit of stuff for 42. 27 00:03:00.060 --> 00:03:05.759 Then shot most of Utopia, then shot most of 42 and then... 28 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:08.580 So they were just all in the same silo. 29 00:03:08.639 --> 00:03:09.719 Yeah, yeah, kind of thing. 30 00:03:09.780 --> 00:03:18.240 They could have shut a, like, because everyone, like, there's that very long scene where they're talking to John Barrowman through a door, and so that could all be done. 31 00:03:18.300 --> 00:03:22.080 Well, we're off making 42, yeah. tenants off yelling through another door. 32 00:03:22.139 --> 00:03:24.419 Well, Freeman's stuck in another door. 33 00:03:24.539 --> 00:03:27.180 There's a lot of looking through portholes. 34 00:03:27.659 --> 00:03:33.060 And the thing is, there's a lot of times where you have a close-up of someone's hands on a control. 35 00:03:33.120 --> 00:03:33.960 Oh, yeah. 36 00:03:33.960 --> 00:03:42.000 It is actually at the location for 42 because it was that old sort of factory works thing, particularly any close-up of freema. 37 00:03:42.060 --> 00:03:43.560 Any close-up of Martha's hand. 38 00:03:43.620 --> 00:03:47.639 He's a hand double because Freema was off shooting actual dialogue and things. 39 00:03:47.759 --> 00:03:50.099 Wow, they're so clever, aren't they? 40 00:03:50.159 --> 00:03:56.159 That's a 2nd ID who is insanely doing scheduling. 41 00:03:56.460 --> 00:03:58.620 That's hard work. 42 00:03:58.680 --> 00:04:01.379 Maybe the 3rd AD. I can't remember who does the schedule. 43 00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:02.580 But I used to hate them. 44 00:04:03.360 --> 00:04:07.020 I'd always be bringing them going, I have to go to work. 45 00:04:07.080 --> 00:04:08.039 I've gotta go to the radio. 46 00:04:08.099 --> 00:04:09.419 What are you doing, putting me on at this hour? 47 00:04:15.479 --> 00:04:17.879 I suppose we have to talk about the episode. 48 00:04:18.779 --> 00:04:21.060 I thought we were doing quite well. 49 00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:22.560 We don't have to. 50 00:04:22.620 --> 00:04:27.360 Do we talk about how none of the story makes any sense? 51 00:04:27.420 --> 00:04:29.459 Well, this is Doctor Who. 52 00:04:29.519 --> 00:04:32.220 I think we more or less kind of resigned to that. 53 00:04:32.279 --> 00:04:44.220 But like it feels like it's trying to do so many things with the stories that have come before that are leading up to it and the stories that it's about to spin off into, that this one in itself goes. 54 00:04:44.279 --> 00:04:46.259 Look, we're just going tread water for a little minute. 55 00:04:46.379 --> 00:04:49.800 This is why I stopped playing with my action figures. 56 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:57.959 This is the entire dramatist person that you're talking about, the entire drama talking of this episode because they all stand about and it's a polished balloon. 57 00:04:58.019 --> 00:05:06.660 It looks gorgeous, but they just end up doing my dinner with Andre. addressing each other in a circle. and yeah, look, I think there's the thing, it's actually a pyramid, isn't it? 58 00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:15.600 You've got Saint Derek Jacoby in the puffy pirate shirt and just, oh, he's emoting now, so if you'll just stand back and admire it. hearing the drums. 59 00:05:15.660 --> 00:05:16.620 He's hearing the drums. 60 00:05:16.680 --> 00:05:20.100 No one breathes for the entire week shoots. 61 00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:21.240 It all purple face. 62 00:05:21.300 --> 00:05:22.620 Jack wasn't acting. 63 00:05:22.680 --> 00:05:23.639 It was not apoplexy. 64 00:05:23.699 --> 00:05:26.879 Oh, I'm on the set with Dame Derek. 65 00:05:28.800 --> 00:05:31.800 But he had played the master before, had he not? 66 00:05:31.860 --> 00:05:33.600 Derek Checkerby in the cartoon. 67 00:05:33.660 --> 00:05:36.360 Yeah, in Scream of the Shark, which we never covered. 68 00:05:36.420 --> 00:05:38.399 Oh, we should do it now. 69 00:05:38.459 --> 00:05:38.879 Yeah. 70 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:45.120 It's about all that buying a friend of the podcast, Paul Cornell, so it's very good. 71 00:05:45.180 --> 00:05:46.920 It is very good. 72 00:05:46.980 --> 00:05:51.600 I would say Richard E. Grant has never heard of Doctor Who despite having been in it. 73 00:05:51.600 --> 00:05:52.379 Has no interest in it. 74 00:05:52.439 --> 00:05:53.819 And again, and it shows. 75 00:05:53.939 --> 00:05:55.560 Yeah, yeah. 76 00:05:55.620 --> 00:05:56.819 But everyone else is very good. 77 00:05:56.879 --> 00:05:59.339 I kind of like his disaffected. 78 00:05:59.399 --> 00:06:03.839 I really don't care what's going on performance, even as the great intelligence. 79 00:06:03.899 --> 00:06:05.519 It's like, yeah, I don't really care. 80 00:06:05.579 --> 00:06:07.379 It makes him more menacing. 81 00:06:08.579 --> 00:06:24.779 It reminds me of when I used to be obsessed with, if you're a terrible actor, You're very good at playing a villain because you can seem completely emotionless about things that you should have some kind of inkling about, which is why Heather Locklear was so good in Melrose Plan. 82 00:06:25.800 --> 00:06:27.540 But it's true. 83 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:30.779 It's like really, like anyone who doesn't care about what they're doing. 84 00:06:30.839 --> 00:06:32.399 Heather bloody long. 85 00:06:32.459 --> 00:06:33.360 Heather Locklear. 86 00:06:33.420 --> 00:06:34.319 She has no idea. 87 00:06:40.379 --> 00:06:42.000 I have distinct memories of watching this. 88 00:06:42.060 --> 00:06:43.259 I watched it in Cardiff. 89 00:06:43.319 --> 00:06:44.160 Oh, wow. 90 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:54.779 I was in, I went on holidays from a radio job and took myself off to Carter for a Doctor Who holiday and I got a Dalek in my hotel room. 91 00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:56.639 It was some special deal. 92 00:06:56.699 --> 00:06:58.079 It's like a remote control one. 93 00:06:58.139 --> 00:06:59.639 It's the Death to the Daleks one. 94 00:06:59.699 --> 00:07:00.180 Oh, right. 95 00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:00.779 It's awesome. 96 00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:06.959 And so, yeah, I was sitting there on the Saturday night going, oh, my God, I'm finally going to see Doctor Who when it goes out. 97 00:07:06.959 --> 00:07:11.160 Like, because it was, you know, a couple of years before Ivy started doing that. 98 00:07:11.220 --> 00:07:13.500 I was like, 0 my god, I'm in. 99 00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:14.639 I'm in Cardiff. 100 00:07:14.699 --> 00:07:15.540 I watching Doctor Who. 101 00:07:15.660 --> 00:07:25.620 And I had suspected that Jacoby might be playing the master, but the way they kind of tease it down in the episode, I was like, is it going to be a future doctor? 102 00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:26.100 Yeah. 103 00:07:26.100 --> 00:07:27.540 Is it the valleyard or something? 104 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:29.160 Puffy sleeves, yeah. 105 00:07:29.220 --> 00:07:33.000 Yeah, he sort of dresses like a classic series. 106 00:07:33.060 --> 00:07:33.420 Yes. 107 00:07:33.420 --> 00:07:35.639 He has the voice and the slightly camp. 108 00:07:35.699 --> 00:07:36.420 Yeah, yeah. 109 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:36.899 Yeah. 110 00:07:36.959 --> 00:07:40.740 I think that I had been unable to avoid spoilers. 111 00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:43.740 So I was pretty sure that he was going to be the master. 112 00:07:43.800 --> 00:07:45.180 Yeah, with fans. 113 00:07:45.180 --> 00:07:48.540 But I remember watching it as well at the time. 114 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:56.220 And for me, the big shock wasn't the master thing so much as the way that it ends up tying into what's been going on. 115 00:07:56.279 --> 00:07:56.939 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 116 00:07:56.939 --> 00:08:13.199 And I do think that one of the genius things about series 3 is that the arc is so simple, and it is just that the villain in episode 11 steals the TARDIS and travels back in time to kind of the beginning of series 2. 117 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:19.920 And that's why he's been appearing ever since what Love and Monsters is our 1st reference to Harold Saxon. 118 00:08:19.980 --> 00:08:22.740 And I think the simplicity of that is really good. 119 00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:33.120 I also think that this does an amazing job of bringing a whole sort of heap of stuff in from earlier on in the season and things. 120 00:08:33.179 --> 00:08:42.779 And we talked in our human nature episode about the decision that Russell made to turn the cricket ball thing from the novel of human nature. 121 00:08:43.139 --> 00:08:45.779 Yeah, and that was a big surprise as well. 122 00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:47.340 And I love that moment. 123 00:08:47.399 --> 00:08:59.519 You know, we've talked a lot about David Tennant's acting, but I do really like that moment where he, you know, is kind of stunned and trying to deny that it's actually happening. 124 00:08:59.519 --> 00:09:03.299 And then he's shouting at Martha, you know, has he noticed it? 125 00:09:03.360 --> 00:09:04.379 Has he noticed it now? 126 00:09:04.440 --> 00:09:07.200 I think all of that sort of stuff is pretty good. 127 00:09:07.259 --> 00:09:16.139 And I'm actually on board for occasional Doctor Who story that is a little bit less of an adventure in itself. 128 00:09:17.100 --> 00:09:19.080 Oh, look, I love a base under siege. my favourite ones. 129 00:09:19.139 --> 00:09:20.460 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 130 00:09:20.519 --> 00:09:22.620 But I mean, this is as thin as possible, isn't it? 131 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:24.000 I mean, it is super thin. 132 00:09:24.059 --> 00:09:32.279 But you know, for me, it's all kind of atmosphere. and then setting up for the 2 part finale. 133 00:09:32.340 --> 00:09:36.539 Now, I don't want to derail anything that you're going to be talking about in the next few weeks. 134 00:09:36.600 --> 00:09:47.460 But I believe still to this day that Davis had the finale of this in mind for Rose. 135 00:09:47.639 --> 00:09:56.940 Oh, because we're meant to be caring about these people who have been debased, like Martha's family, and we've barely gotten to know them. 136 00:09:57.000 --> 00:10:04.980 But if they were people we'd been with for the last 3 years, you'd be like, oh, how awful, how, you know, I don't want to see Jackie in that position. 137 00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:06.000 That's just the worst thing. 138 00:10:06.059 --> 00:10:10.799 Also, Jackie betraying Rose would have been much more powerful. 139 00:10:10.860 --> 00:10:16.740 You are so spot on with this because we forget what a dark little bugger how Russell can actually be. 140 00:10:16.799 --> 00:10:21.779 He loves doing horrible, horrible things to people he's creative. 141 00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:30.600 And also, like, it makes more sense for Rose to spend a year walking around the planet whispering the doctor's name. 142 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:36.539 Instead of, instead of Martha, who really is just a bit jacked off because old mate was blonde. 143 00:10:36.600 --> 00:10:38.039 Yeah, yeah. 144 00:10:38.100 --> 00:10:49.320 I think that, as well, you've got that, the hubris thing in series two, you know, that the doctor and Rose are sort of massively unlikeable, and you're waiting for the other shooter drop. 145 00:10:49.379 --> 00:10:56.039 And it sort of, I guess, drops in doomsday, but it's clear, I think, that he had more in mind. 146 00:10:56.159 --> 00:11:01.200 Yeah, it was kind of just blindsided by Billy's departure, I think, and had to change it. 147 00:11:01.259 --> 00:11:04.860 I, yeah, I had never considered it, but I think you're really onto something. 148 00:11:04.919 --> 00:11:16.200 And this is the other shoe dropping for me because the face of Bo's message, you are not alone, was written for the end of New Earth. with a view to it paying off at the end of that series and then he pushed it back a year. 149 00:11:16.259 --> 00:11:18.659 So, yeah, I hadn't I had never considered that. 150 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:29.519 Yeah, it just, there's, because when, you know, you see all of Martha's family and I was like, I don't really care that they've been turned into hideous monsters. 151 00:11:29.580 --> 00:11:32.639 Like, it's, you know, I don't like, let them clean the tables. 152 00:11:34.259 --> 00:11:37.379 Except I actually really love Francine. 153 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:41.220 And I'm a massive fan of all 3 RTD mums. 154 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:45.840 And my my dream convention is mom con. 155 00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:48.779 With all 3 of them. 156 00:11:48.840 --> 00:11:54.360 I, I once got an audiobook just because, uh, Joe, and I was reading it. 157 00:11:54.419 --> 00:11:57.659 She has the most beautiful, mellifluous voice. 158 00:11:57.720 --> 00:11:59.580 Like it is spectacular. 159 00:11:59.580 --> 00:12:01.679 And it is, it was a terrible book. 160 00:12:03.240 --> 00:12:12.360 It was one of those, you know, the African crime stories. detective, ladies detective agencies. 161 00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:14.220 Number one ladies detectivate. reads those. 162 00:12:14.279 --> 00:12:15.179 Right. 163 00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:15.720 Oh, cool. 164 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:22.559 Yeah, well, we'll see more of her next week, but I think that I think that does that sounds right, doesn't it? 165 00:12:22.620 --> 00:12:35.759 Like just from a, like from my, from my own writing, like I'm like, ah, because this is, this is one thing that you kind of forget about TV production is that there are so many things that, that a writer has to just take on board. 166 00:12:35.879 --> 00:12:40.320 Like, you know, everyone complains about the last season of Game of Thrones. 167 00:12:40.379 --> 00:12:57.840 And everyone's like, well, they should they should do it with competent writers, like, these writers are very competent, but they had the option of playing that story out over another 7 seasons with different actors because Leonard Hetty was being paid a 1000000 and a half dollars to sit in a window, drink a glass of wine. 168 00:12:57.899 --> 00:13:05.220 Or you try and tie it all up while you can still afford these people who are quite becoming more and more expensive. 169 00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:14.879 I mean, I think that that's what makes serialised television so interesting because things are being thrown at the people who are riding and they're having to deal with production things. 170 00:13:14.940 --> 00:13:16.259 Oh, family tree. 171 00:13:17.039 --> 00:13:20.820 Yeah, and through this dreary problem. 172 00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:23.100 Enterprise season 4, isn't it? 173 00:13:23.159 --> 00:13:27.360 But if you get the fans on board, I really did like that thing. 174 00:13:27.419 --> 00:13:38.039 It's one of the few bits of trick I actually liked because, oh, look, saliency and interlinking and plots and puzzles that ROCD-ish fan boy brains can follow and make fun with. 175 00:13:38.100 --> 00:13:47.399 And maybe in a way, Martha is designed to kind of fit that role in a different way because we've seen Martha. 176 00:13:47.759 --> 00:13:55.620 In human nature, you know, spend a few months, um, serving the doctor or helping him out or whatever. 177 00:13:55.740 --> 00:13:58.139 And so the idea that she would do that. 178 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:04.980 And Martha has been set up as someone who is selfless and who really loves her family. 179 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:11.039 And so he kind of shorthands all of that stuff to still kind of make it work, I think. 180 00:14:11.100 --> 00:14:12.659 There is... 181 00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:14.639 I mean, we're talking about everything but utopia. 182 00:14:14.700 --> 00:14:22.080 It is very problematic, the fact that the only black family he has, he puts all of them in servant positions. 183 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:25.080 I was just going to say... 184 00:14:25.139 --> 00:14:32.100 I would pay rubies and tips to have Francine as my waitress because that would be Algonkin level, bitch. 185 00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:34.559 She's out the back spitting in your food. 186 00:14:34.620 --> 00:14:36.419 Oh, yeah, no, she exactly. 187 00:14:36.419 --> 00:14:37.919 Nothing so prosaic. 188 00:14:37.980 --> 00:14:41.820 No, no, no, the poison would be very slow accent. 189 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:43.080 Very slow. 190 00:14:43.139 --> 00:14:47.100 Yeah, you would feel it only after your bank accounts had been completely drowned. 191 00:14:47.159 --> 00:14:48.179 I had draw her. 192 00:14:48.299 --> 00:14:49.259 But yes, it's the big thing. 193 00:14:49.259 --> 00:14:51.720 Because Russell is John Cimbwall in this case. 194 00:14:51.779 --> 00:14:54.779 He's, I think, in these nicest aspect. 195 00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:56.100 He's Jacobi. 196 00:14:56.159 --> 00:14:59.460 Have you heard Jacobi on the big finishes, by the way? 197 00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:00.059 Yes. 198 00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:04.860 Oh my god, the one, the master of... 199 00:15:04.919 --> 00:15:05.279 Yes. 200 00:15:05.340 --> 00:15:09.120 Oh, that is probably the best thing, big finish. in about 5 years. 201 00:15:09.179 --> 00:15:09.480 Thank you. 202 00:15:09.539 --> 00:15:11.340 And so is he playing Jana in that? 203 00:15:11.399 --> 00:15:15.059 No, he plays, like, it's, it doesn't quite make sense. 204 00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:18.480 Look, it's very silly, but he's he's the war master. 205 00:15:18.539 --> 00:15:22.500 Basically, he's the master before he gets turned back into a baby. 206 00:15:22.559 --> 00:15:23.580 Right, okay. 207 00:15:23.700 --> 00:15:24.480 Okay. 208 00:15:24.539 --> 00:15:33.000 And he's malevolent and he's awful and he hates people and he's manipulative and it's amazing. 209 00:15:33.059 --> 00:15:34.019 He's Russell. 210 00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:38.220 He's Russell's Jungian Shadow. 211 00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:44.759 I think everything that Russell wants to do as in really what you said about Martha's family, which is just no one will do it. 212 00:15:44.820 --> 00:15:46.559 I mean, Russell would be looking at Wing Chang. 213 00:15:46.620 --> 00:15:49.139 I will just list appalling thing anyone could have ever done in a Welsh accent. 214 00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:53.519 And he'd be, you know, it's always this is really terrible, but underneath he's going, oh, that's so evil. 215 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:56.279 Well, and Russell's naughty. 216 00:15:56.340 --> 00:15:57.120 I mean, look at this. 217 00:15:57.179 --> 00:16:21.960 You know, you have a setup here, utopia, which is kind of really resonant and sort of, we talked about this in gridlock, where it creates a world that doesn't really work on its own terms, but the sort of comments on the human condition, you know, that you've got people living their lives, sort of creating a community, suffering, you know, there's a material reality around that sort of refugee camp thing, even though it's just in sort of some corridor in a glass section. 218 00:16:22.019 --> 00:16:26.220 And it looks like it's been entirely made out of leftover sets from some blitz drama. 219 00:16:26.340 --> 00:16:26.940 Yeah, yeah. 220 00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:29.879 Well, I love the mid-20th century look of everyone's clothes. 221 00:16:29.940 --> 00:16:31.679 Yeah, it's nearly terrific. 222 00:16:31.799 --> 00:16:39.120 And, you know, the doctor says, you always come back to their So it's like, you know, we have nothing, but we're going to make sure it's the aesthetic we like. 223 00:16:39.179 --> 00:16:42.299 It is weird, though, because it does, like, they've gone. 224 00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:46.860 Okay, it's what says refugees to us in the war, in the tube. 225 00:16:46.980 --> 00:16:49.379 Yeah, yeah, waiting for the bombs to drop. 226 00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:50.039 There we go. 227 00:16:50.100 --> 00:16:50.940 That's the look we're going. 228 00:16:51.000 --> 00:16:52.740 I think that's perfectly reasonable. 229 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:58.500 I mean, they could have all been wearing sort of glittering space outfits or something, which would have been very bad. 230 00:16:58.559 --> 00:16:59.519 Oh, wouldn't it have been wonderful? 231 00:16:59.700 --> 00:17:02.159 Oh, Garrow beam. 232 00:17:02.220 --> 00:17:05.759 In his Davros wheelchair. the end. 233 00:17:05.819 --> 00:17:09.779 But and then you've got them searching for utopia. 234 00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:11.759 You know, they know that they're all about to die. 235 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:15.539 They know that they're all mortal and they're trying to find some mythical way out of it. 236 00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:23.339 And, you know, the doctor's wandering through the refugee camp going on about how indomitable they all are, you know, borrowing Tom's lines. 237 00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:26.579 But what he's going to do to those people next week. 238 00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:27.420 Oh, yeah. 239 00:17:27.420 --> 00:17:31.980 You know, like it is so bleak and so brutal. 240 00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:40.920 And that's what Russell always does, you know, on the, you know, on confidential and on the commentaries, everything's lovely and marvellous and, you know, isn't it great and wonderful? 241 00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:47.700 But he's so cynical and kind of so horrible and I really like that. 242 00:17:48.420 --> 00:17:50.880 We've had years and years of it. 243 00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:51.599 Yeah. 244 00:17:52.200 --> 00:18:03.900 The fact that, you know, he gives you a character as delightful as Chen, though, who is, you know, you love just because she's forced to do this weird way of speaking, which she says is polite. 245 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:06.779 And the joy she takes in not doing it. 246 00:18:06.900 --> 00:18:08.279 And you're like, oh, she's great. 247 00:18:08.339 --> 00:18:09.299 Oh, she's dead. 248 00:18:11.099 --> 00:18:32.579 But even doing it with Yana as well, who has, he's got a couple of really beautiful speeches, and there is that, the one where he's tearing up and saying, you know, there were stories of time travel in the old days and stuff, or when he's doing the exposition thing about what utopia is, and it's, you know, it's the Derek Jacoby voice and all of that. 249 00:18:32.700 --> 00:18:35.160 And the doctor really likes him. 250 00:18:35.220 --> 00:18:36.059 He's really smart. 251 00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:39.779 He's he is like a version of the doctor. 252 00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:41.940 And so we like him as well. 253 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:46.680 And so turning him into the master too, is, again, just a sort of bit of a gut. 254 00:18:46.740 --> 00:18:55.200 There are so many like, there are so many great moments in this show that the rest of the story is looking to accommodate. 255 00:18:55.259 --> 00:18:56.880 Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 256 00:18:56.940 --> 00:19:01.859 Like the scene with Captain Jack and, you know, not turning into ash, like the poor man in the spacesuit. 257 00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:02.759 Yeah, yeah. 258 00:19:02.819 --> 00:19:04.500 Like that is a great scene. 259 00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:11.940 Like they playing off each other amazingly well and it is and it's one of those scenes where you're like, oh, I feel like that's the script. 260 00:19:12.059 --> 00:19:13.980 Oh, no, no, this master thing is the script. 261 00:19:14.039 --> 00:19:19.440 And it's almost like everything else has been just sort of weirdly stitched on. 262 00:19:19.559 --> 00:19:21.119 It reminds future kind. 263 00:19:21.180 --> 00:19:27.900 Well, they wandered in from the, wandered in from the planet Cephlon or whatever. or something. 264 00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:39.059 It reminds me a little bit of, you know, Grim Wade's things like Mordred on Dead or Planet of Fire in particular, which has really kind of not much plot. 265 00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:39.720 Yeah, there's nothing. 266 00:19:39.720 --> 00:19:48.539 But it's all about Turlow and Chameleon and the master and getting all of the characters where they need to be in order for Caves of Andrazani to happen. 267 00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:53.160 And, you know, I think I would like Doctor Who to be occasionally a little bit more like that. 268 00:19:53.220 --> 00:20:02.519 I'm kind of, you know, over just series of self-contained adventures that don't kind of, I like a self-contained adventure. 269 00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:07.740 I was more tired of this kind of thing by the time we got to the end of the Moffat era. 270 00:20:07.859 --> 00:20:10.980 Like, it was great when Davis was doing it because he would just pepper it through. 271 00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:13.799 He'd have like, here's an individual adventure. 272 00:20:13.859 --> 00:20:19.500 Like this episode, you know, can stand vaguely alone without all the ongoing stuff. 273 00:20:19.559 --> 00:20:29.279 But, you know, the, it's just, you know, towards the end of the Moffat era, it was like the, the adventure seemed to be, you never, they never finished. 274 00:20:29.339 --> 00:20:40.680 Like they kind of gone halfway through and it's like, oh, now we're going on to the continuing story that's been going on for the last 4 episodes and we, I'm not going to explain how I got out of that. why not? 275 00:20:40.740 --> 00:20:41.819 Oh, just because that's what I do. 276 00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:49.859 But yeah, I kind of, I personally have been enjoying a story that finishes. 277 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:58.920 See, the structure of this one and the next 2 episodes coming up remind me of the Seeds of Doom. 278 00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:05.940 Because you've got those 1st 2 episodes in Antarctica, which just exists to show you how dangerous the monster is. 279 00:21:06.059 --> 00:21:06.599 Yeah. 280 00:21:06.599 --> 00:21:15.180 And what this episode does is it tells you that the master could be like the doctor if he wasn't evil. 281 00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:34.259 You know, it's shorthand for that, but it also tells the younger audience where Captain Jack has been because Barriman really stressed at the time in interviews, he said, no, we explained where Jack's been, you don't have to go watch Torchwood, and if, and he's like, if you are a child, don't don't watch me and talk to it. 282 00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:40.319 And Barriman has always said Captain Jack is a different character in Doctor Who than he is in Torture. 283 00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:41.460 He like, I play him differently. 284 00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:47.339 I put a different emphasis on because Doctor Who's for Children, Torchwood is for horny 15 year olds. 285 00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:49.140 Sorry, adults. 286 00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:50.400 That, that, that old. 287 00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:53.339 He came and went. 288 00:21:53.400 --> 00:22:05.099 You know, I actually remember being relieved when Jack turned up in this and how lovely and fun he was because he just wasn't that at all in Torchwood. 289 00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:06.059 To be all feel the same way. 290 00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:07.740 I only like Barrowman in doctor. 291 00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:17.039 Yeah, and and all of those things, you know, what's, we forget that this actually clears up some of the things, the questions about Jack raised in Tortwood series. 292 00:22:17.099 --> 00:22:18.420 Like, how did he even get there? 293 00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:21.059 How come we have flashbacks to him in World War one? 294 00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:21.960 How did that even happen? 295 00:22:22.019 --> 00:22:24.779 And it just explains it in a couple of throwaway lines. 296 00:22:24.839 --> 00:22:25.740 It absolutely doesn't matter. 297 00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:30.599 And then we get on with some running around and, you know, teeth and having an adventure and stuff. 298 00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:49.019 Also, the other thing about Captain Jack turning up is that, I mean, they still try and shoehorn it in, but this ongoing narrative of Martha feeling 2nd best to Rose, which sometimes I feel like her character was written just to be her entire character is not Rose. 299 00:22:49.079 --> 00:22:51.960 Like there's nothing else to her, but not Rose. 300 00:22:52.019 --> 00:22:54.420 And it's frustrating. 301 00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:58.619 It must have been frustrating for Freeman, the actor, because it's like, well, what am I, what am I playing? 302 00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:02.160 I'm just playing someone who's, yeah, the underheader Locklear? 303 00:23:02.220 --> 00:23:06.599 Whoever whoever's in the mean cast cast right at the bottom just looking up at all the pink. 304 00:23:06.660 --> 00:23:07.200 Yeah. 305 00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:17.400 Yeah, like it, I hate it when, not just characters, but people in life define themselves by what they're, what they're not or what they don't like. 306 00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:18.599 Because I do stuff for YouTube. 307 00:23:18.660 --> 00:23:20.220 I don't do nearly enough stuff for YouTube. 308 00:23:20.279 --> 00:23:22.500 No, you probably do too much. 309 00:23:23.460 --> 00:23:25.559 But this is the thing. 310 00:23:25.619 --> 00:23:32.339 The most viewed Doctor Who videos are the things that are like, you know, Jodie Whitaker murdered my childhood. 311 00:23:32.339 --> 00:23:32.700 Oh, man. 312 00:23:32.700 --> 00:23:35.160 And they keep turning up and I'm like, I don't want to watch these. 313 00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:37.319 Why does YouTube think I care about this? 314 00:23:37.380 --> 00:23:39.960 Yeah, and it's like, one day I was curious. 315 00:23:40.019 --> 00:23:45.059 And I clicked through to one of these channels and thought, have you put up a single video about something you like? 316 00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:45.960 No. 317 00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:46.380 No. 318 00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:48.900 No, it's all about something you don't like. 319 00:23:49.380 --> 00:23:52.380 You can't create something from a negative. 320 00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:53.099 Yeah, yeah. 321 00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:55.799 And Liz Miles was talking about this last week. 322 00:23:55.859 --> 00:24:00.119 It's like Martha has her own character, but it's constantly buried under this, not Rose. 323 00:24:00.180 --> 00:24:12.119 Yeah, I think I think they're walking it back here a little bit too, because they they give her, you know, like, like I think that Freeman does the sort of sassy, exasperated comedy thing quite well. 324 00:24:12.180 --> 00:24:16.500 And so her reaction to discovering that Rose was blonde, you know, that's kind of funny. 325 00:24:16.559 --> 00:24:22.500 And and making Jack have the same experience with the doctor as she has. 326 00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:25.259 So you are in love with him as well. 327 00:24:25.319 --> 00:24:30.900 And I think that sort of makes it more fun and takes the sting out of it a little bit. 328 00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:34.980 But also, Martha, it works brilliantly when she's not with the doctor. 329 00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:38.460 Like when she's with Shakespeare, when she's with Chanto. 330 00:24:38.519 --> 00:24:39.779 Like, these are great moments. 331 00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:42.119 And I know... 332 00:24:42.180 --> 00:24:42.839 Yes, from him. 333 00:24:42.900 --> 00:24:45.779 Yes, like when and when she's, you know, being shut off into the sun. 334 00:24:46.619 --> 00:25:02.460 Like, she's great without the doctor, but when she's, I don't know if it was a thing with her and tenant, or it was just Davis unable to write those as a, as a pairing, which he got so right with uh, Catherine Tate's Donna. 335 00:25:02.519 --> 00:25:07.500 But it was just, yeah, the unrequited love is just boring and annoying. 336 00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:12.539 And it's one of the reasons I don't like Charlie in the in the finish. 337 00:25:12.539 --> 00:25:14.099 Because I'm like, just get over it. 338 00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:16.680 Like, he's right there. either make a move or get out. 339 00:25:16.740 --> 00:25:28.680 But yeah, it is it is frustrating because she is a great character and she's a great actor and she has great moments, but as soon as you stick her next attendant, it's she becomes like part of the wallpaper. 340 00:25:37.740 --> 00:25:41.279 I think that's why we've felt, what is the right term? 341 00:25:41.339 --> 00:25:48.299 I'm not going to even throw a value judgement into it, but why we haven't valued famous performance so much in this and accepted wisdom has not. 342 00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:51.720 And oh, she's not quite the level of an actor as... 343 00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:52.500 She's a great actor. 344 00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:54.359 Yeah, I just, yeah, actually. 345 00:25:54.420 --> 00:25:56.880 Yeah, she's just pushing the chamber pot uphill. 346 00:25:56.940 --> 00:25:57.599 Yes. 347 00:25:57.599 --> 00:25:59.880 We're not going to let those handles go, are we? 348 00:25:59.940 --> 00:26:01.380 I hope not. 349 00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:15.539 But like her performance in human nature is amazing because so much of it is about, you know, being out of time being in a place where she has had all of her power taken away from her as a her colour is forefront. 350 00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:16.079 Yes. 351 00:26:16.140 --> 00:26:17.519 And, you know, she's a doctor. 352 00:26:17.579 --> 00:26:20.099 Like she's a trained doctor. 353 00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:23.400 She's, yeah, she's not an idiot as a character. 354 00:26:23.460 --> 00:26:29.160 So, yeah, I think I think Davis just ended up writing himself into a hole with that character. 355 00:26:29.160 --> 00:26:31.740 And she bore the brunt of that. 356 00:26:31.799 --> 00:26:36.119 We'll certainly see some like on the screen back peddling at the beginning of next season. 357 00:26:36.180 --> 00:26:36.960 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 358 00:26:37.019 --> 00:26:40.079 And, I mean, the rumour I heard at the time. 359 00:26:40.140 --> 00:26:44.400 And this has never been substantiated, was that Freema was signed for a year and a half . 360 00:26:44.579 --> 00:26:47.880 And that's why we get here in 3 episodes of Torchwood. 361 00:26:47.940 --> 00:26:50.819 And 3 episodes mid next season. 362 00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:54.119 And in the finale next season as well, she does fine. 363 00:26:54.180 --> 00:26:54.720 Yes, of course. 364 00:26:54.779 --> 00:26:58.740 And one of those 3 episodes, mid next season is terrible. 365 00:26:58.799 --> 00:26:59.579 Terrible. 366 00:26:59.640 --> 00:27:02.700 Well, it just fails in everything it sets out. 367 00:27:02.759 --> 00:27:04.559 Poor Georgia Moffatt. 368 00:27:04.619 --> 00:27:05.640 She still has a career. 369 00:27:06.180 --> 00:27:10.140 I'm not laying it at Georgia Moffat's feet at Georgia Tennant now. 370 00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:11.220 Yes, that's true. 371 00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:14.400 That's another one where she's acting with a character who can't speak. 372 00:27:14.460 --> 00:27:17.700 She's doing all the heavy lifting and she's great. 373 00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:19.079 The compelling scenes. 374 00:27:19.259 --> 00:27:24.119 I mean, you know, at the end of this season, she says to the doctor she'll be back. 375 00:27:24.180 --> 00:27:31.019 You know, they already definitely intend for her to turn up a few times in series four. 376 00:27:31.259 --> 00:27:35.220 What do we think about John Sims? 377 00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:38.099 We'll talk more of him next week, obviously. 378 00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:42.059 He's insane and I kind of love it. 379 00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:54.420 So what we have, I think, is the lead actor from the other big science fiction television program coming in and threatening to take over as lead actor of this show. 380 00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:58.140 And in 2 episodes time, he will, I think, have successfully done that. 381 00:27:58.200 --> 00:28:11.099 And it's the 1st time I think that the master, since, you know, since his introduction in Tariff the Autons, has actually been sort of properly rethought, and it's where they've worked out what he's for. 382 00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:18.420 And the job of the master is to threaten to be more fun than the doctor and more interesting than the doctor. 383 00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:22.559 And, you know, the doctors thing with villains normally is that he's more fun than them. 384 00:28:22.619 --> 00:28:33.720 And so, you know, the villains are hidebound or boring or limited, or have no sense of humour, and the doctor is, by contrast, someone that we want to spend time with. 385 00:28:33.779 --> 00:28:36.539 And what the master has to do. 386 00:28:36.599 --> 00:28:40.559 The master has to plausibly be someone who could be the star of the show. 387 00:28:40.619 --> 00:28:50.400 Yeah, I want to ask you, do you believe it's another Dark Russell, which I think is a title on itself, that he is performance coding David Tennant's Stick. 388 00:28:50.460 --> 00:28:53.279 Oh, yeah. actually ramping that up and said, quiet to John. 389 00:28:53.339 --> 00:28:55.799 Just take the piss out of danger. 390 00:28:55.859 --> 00:28:56.339 Exactly. 391 00:28:56.400 --> 00:28:58.859 Oh, no, absolutely. 392 00:28:58.859 --> 00:29:02.220 I feel that too, because I thought, you're being very naughty here and I like it. 393 00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:02.880 Yeah. 394 00:29:02.940 --> 00:29:20.339 Yeah, because, I mean, look, all of John Sims appearances in the role have been very, like, even when he comes back for the end of the Capaldi thing and is spends most of it doing an insane accent and it's like, yeah, take the Scottish and ramp it up to Eastern Europe. 395 00:29:21.539 --> 00:29:24.059 Put on your eye, shadow, dear. 396 00:29:24.180 --> 00:29:29.640 They take it to some like a hot level, don't they, with Tony Curtis doing Greg or the Hungarian Bartler? 397 00:29:30.779 --> 00:29:38.940 But it's also because he's usually such a, he doesn't play big, crazy parts normally. 398 00:29:39.059 --> 00:29:41.819 He's normally quite internal. 399 00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:52.019 So seeing him be this physical and this, you know, vocal and and energetic is really peculiar, but amazing. 400 00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:52.680 Yeah. 401 00:29:52.680 --> 00:30:00.119 Something Russell said for the 1st 2 years of Doctor Who, when Evovery was asked about the master, he's like, no, no, the doctors have asked the time lies. 402 00:30:00.180 --> 00:30:01.619 I've got no interest in bringing back Master. 403 00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:03.779 Look, he wasn't very well handled in the past and da- da. 404 00:30:03.779 --> 00:30:08.819 When on confidential with Simmy, he's like, of course, I was going to bring back the past. 405 00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:16.559 But what he said was, I didn't know how to write for him until I realised he's totally insane. 406 00:30:16.619 --> 00:30:18.839 Like, like you said, Adam, he's totally insane. 407 00:30:18.900 --> 00:30:21.180 He's a psychopath, possibly a sociopath. 408 00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:22.680 Now I know how to write for him. 409 00:30:22.740 --> 00:30:25.680 But also the conscious reflection. 410 00:30:25.740 --> 00:30:29.759 And we've talked about this before, that Delgado was a reflection of pertwig. 411 00:30:29.819 --> 00:30:31.079 Yeah, he's Pertuy only foreign. 412 00:30:31.140 --> 00:30:34.019 He's urbane, pretty. 413 00:30:34.019 --> 00:30:34.200 Yeah. 414 00:30:34.259 --> 00:30:45.480 Claus of Axos, I think, is the story where the doctor is really quite irritating and very dull and the master is actually really rather lovely and, you know, he's working with unit and all of that. 415 00:30:45.539 --> 00:30:49.799 And you actually kind of want to watch the master rather than watching Pertu in that story. 416 00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:52.140 And I think that Sim gets that. 417 00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:53.160 Yeah. 418 00:30:53.220 --> 00:30:59.160 And another master actor who's gotten that in recent years is Jeffrey Beavers acting on audio with Tom Baker. 419 00:30:59.220 --> 00:31:00.539 Oh, yeah, they're good. 420 00:31:00.539 --> 00:31:03.059 Yeah, because they both have mellifluous voices. 421 00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:05.880 Yeah, both all voice and very little else. 422 00:31:07.140 --> 00:31:10.619 I just listened to Death Match. 423 00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:13.500 I'm way behind on the Tom Baker audience. 424 00:31:13.559 --> 00:31:20.940 But yeah, it's got Jeffrey Beaver's in it and he's running this sort of death watch thing from Blake 7 kind of thing. 425 00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:22.619 There's no one called Tarrant, unfortunately. 426 00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:23.400 Well, sad. 427 00:31:23.460 --> 00:31:33.119 But there's a bit where they're in the master's private box looking over the arena and there's already been established there's a bowl of figs and Tom just gives this big speech about how pointless it is. 428 00:31:33.180 --> 00:31:34.380 Oh I give up. 429 00:31:34.740 --> 00:31:37.559 Can I have a fig or don't you give a fig? 430 00:31:37.619 --> 00:31:41.819 And Jeffrey Beaver's just, I don't give a thing. 431 00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:47.220 I also loved Alex McQueen up against... 432 00:31:47.579 --> 00:31:49.799 McCoy. 433 00:31:49.799 --> 00:31:50.220 Yes. 434 00:31:50.279 --> 00:31:53.279 That is a spectacular pairing. 435 00:31:53.339 --> 00:32:00.900 Also, when he's pretending to be the doctor for the 1st, you know, 4 or 5 episodes he's in the show is wonderful. 436 00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:02.339 Hello you. 437 00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:05.700 I like I did not pick that twist. 438 00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:06.599 No. 439 00:32:06.660 --> 00:32:13.140 And if before anyone out there complains about spoilers, this was like 2011, we're out we're outside the statute of limitations. 440 00:32:13.740 --> 00:32:17.700 But playing the, you know, Carmen Miranda hat of free. 441 00:32:19.380 --> 00:32:22.920 Jacoby, again, you're just talking about master of colours. 442 00:32:23.099 --> 00:32:30.000 And one of my favourite things of big finishes, the behind the scenes when they've all been chortling the Sirah all afternoon and sit down. 443 00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:34.140 Jack Jack Billings, I just said, darling, is this the campus thing any of us have ever done? 444 00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:39.180 I mean, well, here's this if it wasn't, if it isn't just coming. 445 00:32:39.240 --> 00:32:39.900 Look at us. 446 00:32:39.960 --> 00:32:42.359 And he, as he said, he always loves it. 447 00:32:42.359 --> 00:32:43.859 And he never pictures it below that. 448 00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:44.700 Yeah. 449 00:32:44.700 --> 00:32:51.839 That's the, the effective thing about him in this as well, is when he opens the watch, it is an immediate change. 450 00:32:51.839 --> 00:33:00.359 And because he's been so dodtery and almost Peter Cushing in the 60s films up until that point, when he turns. 451 00:33:01.740 --> 00:33:06.960 And that kind of moment of fury when he's saying to Chanto, like, didn't you ever think? 452 00:33:07.259 --> 00:33:13.799 And then to top it all off, after Chentho kills him, he rails against being killed by a girl. 453 00:33:13.859 --> 00:33:16.440 So we're like, okay, not only are you evil, you're sexist. 454 00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:20.339 But I mean, he is racist, an insect. 455 00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:27.839 But he's old school, you know, like he reads like a classic series doctor or like a classic series master. 456 00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:35.160 And so, you know, the sexism thing is the same trick that Moffatt pulls on the 1st doctor in that terrible twice upon a time. 457 00:33:35.220 --> 00:33:41.940 Yeah, it's like arguably more effective here because we're playing with an archetype rather than playing with an established character. 458 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:42.960 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 459 00:33:43.079 --> 00:33:49.019 And of course, it's been sort of well rehearsed that when he opens the watch or when he's listening to the watch, you hear. 460 00:33:49.079 --> 00:33:55.319 Ainley's laugh and who's, I think it's from the demons, isn't it? 461 00:33:55.380 --> 00:33:56.039 Delgado. 462 00:33:56.099 --> 00:33:58.559 Yeah, you speaking to us well. willing to give your power to me. 463 00:33:58.619 --> 00:34:02.880 Yeah, which is really, I mean, that's really to mine something. cackling. 464 00:34:03.119 --> 00:34:05.099 Teeth clacking. 465 00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:10.980 And it is very sweet of them to include Ainley, who I think is probably pretty terrible as the master. 466 00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:16.260 Oh, no, he's great because he's, he is like the same as all the masters. 467 00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:22.559 He is the perfect foil. for Davison's doctor, who is a little bit useless. 468 00:34:22.679 --> 00:34:26.099 And so as the master, he's a little bit useless. 469 00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:35.039 Did you get the feeling with Ainley that he was playing it for real, or at least attempting to, and nobody else on set was doing that. 470 00:34:35.099 --> 00:34:40.199 Yeah, because, I mean, John Nathan Turner turned it into dancing with the stars with a plot. 471 00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:42.480 I'm just saying outfits. 472 00:34:43.980 --> 00:34:52.019 Yeah, I mean, the thing the thing with Ainley is Sylvester McCoy has said, anything I only cared about 2 things, cricket and playing the master. 473 00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:52.860 Yeah. 474 00:34:52.860 --> 00:34:57.239 And when he wasn't on set playing the master, he was off listening to his wireless, listening to the cricket. 475 00:34:57.300 --> 00:35:01.559 And so Silver's like, he was the most terrifying man I've ever worked with. 476 00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:02.280 It's wonderful. 477 00:35:02.340 --> 00:35:04.800 Yeah, and Aldred said the same thing. 478 00:35:04.860 --> 00:35:08.519 He actually was disturbing to be close too because there was that dissonance. 479 00:35:08.579 --> 00:35:09.360 And the wig, obviously. 480 00:35:09.420 --> 00:35:10.440 The well, the wig. 481 00:35:10.500 --> 00:35:11.400 Who are we talking about now? 482 00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:16.860 On one of the new Blu-ray sets. the season 18 set. 483 00:35:16.920 --> 00:35:19.500 There's a little bit of convention footage of him. 484 00:35:19.559 --> 00:35:28.619 And he's still got a bit of a sardonic edge to him, but it was also clear how much he enjoyed being around fans. 485 00:35:28.679 --> 00:35:32.219 Like he was telling this little anecdote about being a master and then he slipped into the master boy. 486 00:35:34.139 --> 00:35:50.159 I think I've said before that one of the great glories of the Castra Valver audiobook is Peter Davison's Anthony Alien impression, which had clearly been honed over years and years of working with him. 487 00:35:50.519 --> 00:35:52.019 It's spectacular. 488 00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:52.920 It's absolutely perfect. 489 00:35:52.980 --> 00:35:55.619 We're back onto gnashing of teeth, aren't we? 490 00:35:55.739 --> 00:36:04.920 Well, something I really appreciate about this is tenants gnashing of teeth has actually worked into the narrative by having them arrive at the gate and having to show their teeth. 491 00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:09.239 It's a nice nod back to Billy Piper. 492 00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:12.300 Yes, I mean, yeah, if she'd been in the scene, we wouldn't have been able to see anything. 493 00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:15.300 Those future kind. 494 00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:16.920 And we were sort of wondering why they were here. 495 00:36:16.980 --> 00:36:20.639 I think that they're borrowed pretty much directly from terminal, aren't they? 496 00:36:20.699 --> 00:36:23.039 The final episode of Blake 7 series 3? 497 00:36:23.099 --> 00:36:26.460 Where they're what humanity evolves into? 498 00:36:26.519 --> 00:36:34.739 And one of the, you know, the bleak thing about that episode, which I think we all remember with great fondness. 499 00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:38.099 I remember seeing it for the 1st time, I think when it was being broadcast. 500 00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:41.400 And so you have the liberator destroyed. you have them trapped. 501 00:36:41.460 --> 00:36:48.719 We know now, or we're told at least that Blake is dead, um, that Servoland saw him buried. 502 00:36:48.780 --> 00:36:57.539 So the whole thing's gone to hell, but we're now trapped on a planet where it's not just our heroes that have gone to hell, but the entire human race is going to evolve into this. 503 00:36:57.599 --> 00:37:00.239 And so at the end of the world. 504 00:37:00.300 --> 00:37:07.619 And one of the things that I think this episode does really well is that sense of a universe that's winding down. 505 00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:14.460 Um, and the sort of savagery that, that, you know, humanity kind of eventually... 506 00:37:14.460 --> 00:37:20.099 It's very, um, end of the Roman Empire, barbarians at the gate. kind of, you know, repeating itself again. 507 00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:28.380 And the same with the humanity in the tube trying to, you know, survive against the Hun bombings. 508 00:37:28.500 --> 00:37:35.400 It's very much like the end is coming and we are holding out hope for who knows what. 509 00:37:35.460 --> 00:37:43.440 And I just found it weird that it seemed like they were being attacked by an amateur dramatic society. 510 00:37:44.460 --> 00:37:52.500 I think they'd, they'd clearly cast people who brought their own piercings. 511 00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:58.980 Yeah, like if you look closely, a lot of people aren't wearing the prosthetic teeth, they just have really shockingly bad teeth. 512 00:37:59.219 --> 00:38:07.380 But yeah, Paul Mark Davies, who's the lead future kind, and we'll be the trickster in Sarah James. 513 00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:09.239 Yeah, he was a regular monster. 514 00:38:09.300 --> 00:38:11.280 Yeah, he had to have magnetic piercings or whatnot. 515 00:38:11.340 --> 00:38:14.579 There's another guy who's part of the future kind, big bald bloke, I think. 516 00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:16.739 All the piercings are his own. 517 00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:21.239 And he was cut specifically because he had piercing. had all these piercings. 518 00:38:21.300 --> 00:38:25.380 It was it's the it's the very tidy hair that the main guy has. 519 00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:27.719 I'm just like, couldn't you have stuck some dreads on it? 520 00:38:27.780 --> 00:38:28.079 or something? 521 00:38:28.679 --> 00:38:32.460 Like did the budget hair budget run out that week? 522 00:38:32.820 --> 00:38:35.760 Or did he have to run down and be in the other episode? 523 00:38:36.780 --> 00:38:40.559 They're kind of like the goth kids in South Park, aren't they? 524 00:38:40.619 --> 00:38:43.619 Like, you know, it does just feel like dress up. 525 00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:48.059 It just, like, on a weird kind of level. 526 00:38:48.119 --> 00:39:00.119 It feels like, you know, if the utopians or the people seeking utopia, uh, in the blitz, they're they're boomers down in the tunnels, and these are punks. 527 00:39:00.179 --> 00:39:04.739 This is the new generation coming to take television away from it. 528 00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:20.699 Like it's a weird kind of look that it has, but it's, it just feels very strange because it looks like there's, you know, here we are in the 40s in, you know, in these tunnels and then we've got the 70s coming to, Yeah, you know, rip it all away. 529 00:39:20.760 --> 00:39:26.579 I don't know why those were chosen for the looks because that's not in the script. 530 00:39:26.639 --> 00:39:30.000 So it just ends up being weirdly kind of reactionary. 531 00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:30.960 Yeah. 532 00:39:31.019 --> 00:39:39.659 It's obviously a weird production design decision that no one's made deliberately, but it feels very peculiar to look at. 533 00:39:39.719 --> 00:39:44.699 Like it is a, because yeah, it's, they're obviously just cyphers for both things. 534 00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:49.679 Like they're just like, oh, yes, this is the end of humanity and this is, you know, the teeth people. 535 00:39:49.739 --> 00:39:54.360 And it's never really explained what happened to the conglomeration. 536 00:39:54.420 --> 00:39:55.139 Like that. 537 00:39:55.260 --> 00:39:57.300 Yeah, it just went... 538 00:39:57.300 --> 00:40:08.460 Well, but I think that that's a point too, where when the doctors ask to explain, he just says, it's time, and the idea is that time eventually kills all of us, including the whole universe. 539 00:40:08.519 --> 00:40:15.840 And so I think just it provides us a way of seeing that, where we get a, you know, an actual scene where they get to talk about. 540 00:40:16.019 --> 00:40:18.780 As opposed to Lookopolis, where it's like, yeah, the entropy's over there. 541 00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:42.599 I was just gonna say, with the planet, Mel Casero, in the 1st year, Russell said, we're not going to any alien planets because we don't just want to use a quarry. 542 00:40:42.659 --> 00:40:46.139 We've now had 3 alien planets. 543 00:40:46.199 --> 00:40:46.980 And they're all quarries. 544 00:40:47.099 --> 00:40:47.579 Yeah. 545 00:40:47.639 --> 00:40:53.280 You know, there's a there's a field in New Earth, but then there's crop tour, which is a quarry. 546 00:40:53.340 --> 00:40:57.300 And then there's Malcasero, which is a quarry. 547 00:40:57.420 --> 00:41:00.239 I have to say that it's a really good quarry. 548 00:41:00.300 --> 00:41:03.300 I mean, they Welsh quarries are much better than Macquarry. 549 00:41:03.480 --> 00:41:07.199 I don't have Gareth Thomas flouncing around in the first starters. 550 00:41:07.260 --> 00:41:11.099 Oh, well, although it looks like, you know, that Jana's wearing one of his old shirts. 551 00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:15.960 Although obviously they'd have to take it in a little. 552 00:41:19.019 --> 00:41:21.300 I think it's the night shoot. 553 00:41:21.420 --> 00:41:26.280 I think it's the fact they can afford a night shoot in a way that they could rarely do on classic Doctor Who. 554 00:41:26.519 --> 00:41:28.619 They're so tedious. 555 00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:31.019 Like, whenever I, yeah. 556 00:41:31.079 --> 00:41:41.219 Like, because you start work at sunset and then you finish at sunrise and it is not for like a week to do a half hour episode and this would be a fortnight probably. 557 00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:42.599 But so yeah, it's... 558 00:41:42.599 --> 00:41:43.440 It's not good for anyone. 559 00:41:43.679 --> 00:41:46.380 And they've dressed it as well. 560 00:41:46.500 --> 00:41:48.420 They just haven't done a quarry. 561 00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:53.400 Like there's that very flimsy gate. keeping with a padlock. 562 00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:55.559 Keeping... 563 00:41:55.679 --> 00:42:02.940 To be fair, there are some other kinds of defences that do get switched off and then immediately the future kind break the padlock and get in. 564 00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:06.119 But the whole look of it, you know, in the big trucks and all of that sort of thing. 565 00:42:06.179 --> 00:42:18.300 And I do like the idea that they don't really particularly sort of code it as far future. that that's a decision that the show's been making since it came back that it's going to look dated anyway. 566 00:42:18.360 --> 00:42:20.460 So let's make it look recognisable. 567 00:42:20.519 --> 00:42:21.480 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 568 00:42:21.539 --> 00:42:24.480 As opposed to, that's all, wear a silver jumpsuit. 569 00:42:24.539 --> 00:42:25.079 Yeah, yeah. 570 00:42:25.320 --> 00:42:30.119 Really miss the padded shoulders and wedgies. 571 00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:30.360 I know. 572 00:42:30.420 --> 00:42:32.039 Stephen Moffatt will be along soon. 573 00:42:32.820 --> 00:42:34.500 You'll be fine. 574 00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:39.840 I want the nappy uniforms of the team that staff in seats of death. 575 00:42:39.900 --> 00:42:41.460 Oh, now you're talking. 576 00:42:41.519 --> 00:42:49.980 I was thinking of the space crew from the web, but what's that 1st season Blake 7 thing where they've just got these broom handles and they just poke the portal seaweed. 577 00:42:50.039 --> 00:42:52.679 Yes, SVSV7 Yeah, yeah. 578 00:42:52.739 --> 00:42:53.760 That's SB 7. 579 00:42:53.820 --> 00:42:54.840 Miles Fothergill. 580 00:42:54.900 --> 00:42:57.360 And would, wouldn't he? 581 00:42:57.420 --> 00:42:59.880 And Wyatt Earp. 582 00:42:59.940 --> 00:43:01.019 You know, attack. 583 00:43:02.219 --> 00:43:15.659 But I kind of like, you know, Doctor Who hasn't always been crazy silver jumpsuits, we had the robots of death, crazy, you know, over the top lunacy. and the whatever they were wearing in the vervoids. 584 00:43:18.059 --> 00:43:20.940 That was very 80s active wares. 585 00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:22.800 Civilisation, really. 586 00:43:22.860 --> 00:43:24.119 That's right. 587 00:43:24.119 --> 00:43:25.500 It's what we've got now. 588 00:43:25.559 --> 00:43:28.739 It is the future because we're all wearing crimpling jumpsuits. 589 00:43:29.159 --> 00:43:30.900 It's not what I want. 590 00:43:30.900 --> 00:43:31.679 On a black man. 591 00:43:32.760 --> 00:43:34.500 I wish. 592 00:43:34.559 --> 00:43:38.099 I just think Janet looks like she's working at boots or something. 593 00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:44.639 Well, that's how she got access to the drugs to kill everyone because Janet is the killer. 594 00:43:54.360 --> 00:43:57.360 I like Utopia in spite of itself. 595 00:43:57.420 --> 00:44:09.239 Like there's so much that just doesn't work, but I feel like there's so many good parts of it, that it, that the coat hanger of a story has some nice clothes on it. 596 00:44:09.300 --> 00:44:19.260 I think for me, it has that sort of sense of there's a kind of melancholy about it and I think Graham Harper directs it really well. 597 00:44:19.320 --> 00:44:27.840 I think Murray's using sort of some pretty old music cues from elsewhere in the season, but they are used pretty effectively. 598 00:44:27.900 --> 00:44:34.079 I do like the way that the master is conceived of in the way that he's presented musically as well. 599 00:44:34.679 --> 00:44:43.739 And I guess I'm sort of up for an episode that marks time while a bunch of stuff happens for a while. 600 00:44:43.739 --> 00:44:45.179 I don't mind that. 601 00:45:13.260 --> 00:45:16.800 Well, there, listener, that's all we have time for is wait. 602 00:45:16.860 --> 00:45:20.820 The master is now Prime Minister of Great Britain, much to everyone's relief, I imagine. 603 00:45:20.940 --> 00:45:25.559 So we'll check in on how he's getting one next week in the sound of drums. 604 00:45:25.619 --> 00:45:31.860 The fun thing is, at this stage, we have no idea who the prime minister of Great Britain is going to be when this goes out. 605 00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:33.659 It's too unalumn. 606 00:45:35.039 --> 00:45:36.539 It's Ruth Davidson. 607 00:45:36.539 --> 00:45:52.559 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us at Flight 3 Entirety on Facebook at FDE podcast on Twitter and on our website, flight through Entirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger and Jody into Terror. 608 00:45:52.619 --> 00:45:54.719 Adam, where can people find you? 609 00:45:54.780 --> 00:45:56.219 Adamricard.com. 610 00:45:56.280 --> 00:45:57.300 Excellent. 611 00:45:57.360 --> 00:45:57.960 That was easy. 612 00:45:58.019 --> 00:45:58.860 All right. 613 00:45:58.920 --> 00:46:00.480 Until next time. 614 00:46:00.539 --> 00:46:04.260 May you find a utopia that hasn't been devised by Russell T. Davis. 615 00:46:04.320 --> 00:46:06.360 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 616 00:46:06.420 --> 00:46:07.139 Good night. 617 00:46:07.199 --> 00:46:07.800 Bye. 618 00:46:07.860 --> 00:46:08.760 Good then. 619 00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:17.760 That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Brendan, Jones, Richard Stone, and Adam Richard. 620 00:46:17.820 --> 00:46:21.599 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, strength performance by Jane Alberg. 621 00:46:21.659 --> 00:46:28.440 This episode on the set with Dame Derek Jacoby, was recorded on the 8th of September 2019 and released on the 24th of November. 622 00:46:31.500 --> 00:46:38.099 Here at FDE, we celebrated Doctor Who Day by nipping back in time, 50 years, and deleting the Celestial Toymaker part 4. 623 00:46:38.280 --> 00:46:41.099 So, next time we catch up, drinks are on you. 624 00:46:44.519 --> 00:46:48.599 I think he had made it known that it had been a longtime ambition. 625 00:46:48.599 --> 00:46:53.579 It used to appear on Doctor Who and Coronation Street. has he achieved the Coronation Street one? 626 00:46:53.639 --> 00:46:54.300 He has not. 627 00:46:54.360 --> 00:46:56.400 Has he come into Xena Sharples? 628 00:46:56.760 --> 00:46:58.079 Long lost it. 629 00:46:58.139 --> 00:46:59.280 Because I really want to. 630 00:46:59.340 --> 00:46:59.639 Oh, yeah. 631 00:46:59.699 --> 00:47:04.800 Well, you know Maureen Lippman, who we talked about last time I was on this show, is now in Coronation Street. 632 00:47:04.860 --> 00:47:05.340 No. 633 00:47:05.340 --> 00:47:09.000 So 3 times it's a big finish spinoff. 634 00:47:09.360 --> 00:47:13.679 And isn't Phil Collinson now producing Coronation Street? 635 00:47:13.739 --> 00:47:14.639 Oh, he was for a while. 636 00:47:14.699 --> 00:47:15.300 Has he gone back? 637 00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:16.019 don't know. 638 00:47:16.079 --> 00:47:21.480 Because he was in charge of it during the 50th anniversary when the tram fell off the aqueduct into the shop. 639 00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:25.920 In a devastating live episode. 640 00:47:26.219 --> 00:47:28.800 It was honoured by Skyfall. 641 00:47:30.300 --> 00:47:40.380 Why does that make me think of that episode of South Park when a scriptwriting department gets their plots from a bunch of dew gongs in a pool with words written on balls? 642 00:47:40.440 --> 00:47:46.139 like, Oh, they were mad. off the bridge. into the shop. 643 00:47:46.260 --> 00:47:48.539 No, it was a live episode. 644 00:47:48.599 --> 00:47:58.739 So they had to, it had to be all dramatic. the one before the tram falls off the bridge into the shop and then it was a lot of is old mate going to be pulled out from under the tram in time. 645 00:47:58.920 --> 00:48:02.519 Everything's a Brexit metaphor. 646 00:48:02.579 --> 00:48:07.559 The 50th is a long, it was like, oh, it was the 50th anniversary. 647 00:48:07.619 --> 00:48:08.699 Like it was ages ago. 648 00:48:08.760 --> 00:48:10.019 The Doctor Who one. 649 00:48:10.079 --> 00:48:12.900 It was like 2012, I think. 650 00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:13.619 Gosh. 651 00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:15.599 So yeah, Collinson might have gone back. 652 00:48:15.659 --> 00:48:16.619 Maybe he's the EP now. 653 00:48:16.679 --> 00:48:17.099 Who knows? 654 00:48:17.159 --> 00:48:28.559 Well, on that topic, Derek Jacoby actually grabbed Phil Collins and while he was shooting on the TARTA set and said, what a fantastic set. 655 00:48:28.619 --> 00:48:30.300 Do you watch Coronation Street? 656 00:48:33.420 --> 00:48:36.539 Because don't you reckon the TARDIS is like the knicker factory? 657 00:48:36.900 --> 00:48:40.860 It's got gantries and everything and it never used to be that big. 658 00:48:41.099 --> 00:48:43.920 What is a sauce pot, isn't it? 659 00:48:43.980 --> 00:48:47.880 The knicker factory has grown substantially over time. 660 00:48:49.320 --> 00:48:51.480 Underworld, it's called. 661 00:48:51.539 --> 00:48:52.500 Underworld. 662 00:48:52.500 --> 00:48:58.380 Oh, God. 663 00:48:58.440 --> 00:49:00.659 How did we get onto coronation? 664 00:49:00.719 --> 00:49:02.400 We all indoors. 665 00:49:02.460 --> 00:49:06.300 Diana Daws and Alan Lake used to hold naughty parties there and there, didn't they? 666 00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:07.860 Oh, yes. in the underworld. 667 00:49:07.920 --> 00:49:10.260 Underwear world, yeah, underwear world. 668 00:49:10.380 --> 00:49:13.079 It all comes back to Diana Dawes and Alan. 669 00:49:13.139 --> 00:49:15.179 Like, they're going to be our arc words for next season. 670 00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:18.300 They're the Saxon. 671 00:49:18.480 --> 00:49:22.619 It actually means that our last episode next season can't be broadcast. 672 00:49:22.739 --> 00:49:26.340 So but he had played the master before, had he not?