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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:33:06

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Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety.

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The only Doctor Who podcast with a LinkedIn profile is varied and eventful as Letitia Jones.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Pisa.

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I'm Todd, and I'm a somewhat sidelined, but not miscast regular for this episode.

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Well, you know what it's like when you fancy someone and they don't even know you exist?

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Well, that's been our lives for the last 13 weeks.

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So this is us getting out.

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But before we do, we'd like to welcome you to our series 3 retrospective.

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Okay, let's get on with this.

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Peter, it's your first time here, I think, for a retrospective, so you get to dive into the box of delights, first of all.

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I'm very excited about this.

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Box of delights.

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Hopefully it'll be something like Kinder, yeah?

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You cleaned that up beautifully.

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All in the family, Martha's siblings, Tish and Leo.

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All right, let's discuss.

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Um, well, Goo Goo, Mabatha Raw is fabulous as Tish.

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I understand she might have been in the contention to play Martha as well.

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Like originally?

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Yeah.

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And of course, she's gone on to have a stellar career.

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I think she, anytime she's on screen, it's clear that she's going to be, you know, something special and go on to do big things.

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Leo, what a shame he's not a morgue.

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He got such a cute little face on him, but I think he was a CBC presenter at the time or something along those lines and his availability was not huge.

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And so that's why he's not in the last 2 parts or if he had have been, it might have made those bit more full.

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So I think the idea was that he was going to do the Thomas Milligan role, wasn't he?

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That he was going to welcome her on the beach or something like that.

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Yeah, which would have been kind of nice because he was a little bit of a sort of silly goofball in Lazarus experiment and, you know, gets hit in the head and falls over and stuff.

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And he's just terribly sweet.

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And it would have been nice to give him a chance to be sort of heroic.

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I think it is someone else in the window when the doctor looks in at the very end, it's not.

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Doesn't he get that one?

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I thought it was him.

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Does he not get one scene, does?

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where he's strolling along the beach?

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Yeah, yeah. in Brighton and he manages to kind of escape the, you know, it's not the talent.

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Yeah, that's right.

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I think coming back to this, I enjoy both of them and I'd forgotten, you know, perhaps how comedic he was in that episode.

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I think it's a shame that Martha is a one and done companion because we've missed the opportunity to actually possibly see a sibling go in the TARDIS and experience what the companion goes through and actually have a shared experience.

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We never had that in Doctor Who.

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She's the only companion really in Doctor Who that actually has a family.

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I mean, Yaz now has a sister.

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I mean, I think the closest we ever got was Brett Vion and Sarah Kingdom back in 1965.

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I mean, honestly, recasting that.

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But, you know, if you think about it, you know, educate a brother who died.

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Turlo had a brother who was just there to get rid of him.

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Lisa had a father. don't know what happened to him.

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But so many Leila had a father.

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Yeah, but... had a talented brother as well.

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I guess the thing is, so many 2 companions, either only siblings or orphans or they have like a distant relative.

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I mean, I know Tegan had a 1000 relatives, but actually to have a sister or a brother go into the Tartars, you know, with the companion.

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I think that would have been great.

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And I think they're both very capable actors, actresses.

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Google, I think, is spectacular.

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I've mentioned that before and it would, and it's a shame, I think.

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I think the closest that we get is in the Lazarus experiment where both of them get to run away from, you know, the Lazarus monster together.

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And it's really fun.

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I think it's really enjoyable having her there.

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It's the John and Gillian principle and then we wonder why it wasn't followed through.

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Well, I think Russell has set up a good family to follow Rose's family, but they don't get explored in the same depth.

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So Lazar experiment is good for that.

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You know, you do get a feel for Martha's family and it feels like you're, you know, revisiting elements which have already been set up, but that kind of falls by the wayside a little bit.

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I think too, by getting Martha's mother kind of involved in this sort of conspiracy.

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We don't get to see a normal family relationship very much.

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You know, the 1st 2 parter of the whole sort of RTD era is very much about involving the family in Rose's adventures.

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But here they kept it a little bit of a distance, partly I think, because Martha's older, but also because we've got this sort of weird thing where the family's involved in a sort of conspiracy, that Mr. Saxon conspiracy.

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So we, we, the only chance that we properly get to meet them just in normal circumstances is in the last experiment.

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Would have been great if Francine had jumped in the TARDIS for Daleks in Manhattan dressed down a pig sleeve or to...

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We'll get to her.

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All right, Richard, next in the box of delights.

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Um, Snog Mary, kill.

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Harold Saxon, Professor Yana, and the master.

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It's kind of like a flummery, isn't it, or a fool or a delicious trifle because really you mix them all up together again and eat all of them, can't you?

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So I just think this has turned into one of those films that not in front of my trifle. turned into one of those ones. you can really do all with all, can't you?

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Are they all interpositional?

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It's like those old mego figures we played with in the 70s of Batman or Spider-Man or Wonder Woman, but once you got their onesie off, apart from the gimp mask, they all had the same bodies and you could pull them all backwards. anyway, that's my childhood for you.

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If I had to, of all of them, well, look, Saxon, oh, it'd be like, sorry, how can I say?

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It would be like walking a ferrish in a crowded dog park, wouldn't it?

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I don't think you'd get a lot of time to yourself.

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I think, I think whatever you ended up doing with Harold Saxon, it would be highly energetic and over very quickly.

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So I'd probably avoid Harold's sex.

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And Professor Yana, however, I mean, he's a charming sweetie, isn't he?

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But I think I would end up being the Ian McCellen too, Professor Yano, and we'd sit about in an apartment and just say horrid things about other theatricals.

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That's vicious, isn't it?

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That's all the seasons are vicious. you'd marry him.

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Now, the master which one?

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Because I actually really like Jeffrey B's master.

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So I probably, oh, except, oh, it'd be like kissing a budget bolognese, wouldn't it, just be all over your face at once.

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Snog Peter Pratt's master and get a nice eyeball or 2 in here.

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That's more like something Calvin would make for lunch, isn't it?

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With a floating egg in the middle.

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So, yeah, why not?

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I mean, you know, I'm all for a master stock.

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See what I did there?

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I'll have that.

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Thank you, Todd.

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That was, I hope, was enjoyable for the listeners as it was for me.

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It was good that you got that one actually.

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I'd forgotten I'd put that in there.

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All right.

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It was illuminating.

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Nathan?

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What have you got for us?

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Okay, series three.

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So this is the themes of series three.

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What do I think?

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So what are you, yeah.

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So I think that my feeling about series 3 as a whole is sort of largely unchanged from this process.

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I think it has the best arc that any of RTDs eras have, they're kind of finding their way with series one.

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Series 2 is, you know, Torchwood, I guess it's okay, but it doesn't really sort of affect the individual episodes quite so much.

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Whereas this one has a very, very clever thing.

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And it is an echo of what happens in series one, isn't it?

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Where the villain in episode 11 travels back in time to the middle of series 2 and then is mentioned, you know, over and over again and starts to affect what's going on with Martha's family and in episodes of series 3.

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Now individual episodes.

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I think, you know, people have sort of a different idea of how successful they are.

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But I also think too, the wonderful thing is the order that RTD introduces his villains and things.

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So series one introduces the Daleks, who are Hartnell's nemesis, series 2 introduces the Cybermen, Troughton's Nemesis, and series 3 introduces us to Pertwee's nemesis.

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So all of the mythology is being introduced for an entire new generation of fans in the order.

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Series 4, this on...

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Yeah, yeah.

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I just think it's, I think it's just wonderful.

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It is sort of really fun.

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And as for the quality of the episodes, I think I don't think there are any outright stinkers.

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I think there are fewer low points than last year, and there are one or 2 sort of spectacular high points.

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So I think it's really good.

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There's also an emotional arc there with Martha.

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I mean, you know, it's a little bit hit and miss.

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You know, I don't know if people particularly like the fact that she's got this unrequited love for the doctor, particularly from the doctor's point of view.

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He treats Martha a little bit shabbily, but it adds an emotional resonance to the season, which I don't think that the previous 2 had.

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They were sort of plot fundamentals, whereas this actually, you know, development in the character.

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I think there's a confidence in performance, and there's a confidence in production, like that all comes together in this season, that makes it, for me, so much more perhaps rounded and every episode, there's quality in every episode, as you said, Nathan, there's a few dips, but I just think there's so many solid performances and enjoyment in it.

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I've been surprised at the consistency and certainly Freema's performance for me has been an absolute highlight.

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She's so likeable.

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I have this theory and I feel bad saying it because I love series one a lot.

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I think that each RTD series is better than the last, that they just gradually get better and better.

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And I could be wrong, maybe series 4 is a car crash and I'm misremembering it, but I think I probably am not.

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Each series learns from the last one.

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Each series, they learn what, you know, works and what doesn't work and they sort of build upon that.

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And, you know, series one comes out with a great deal of confidence and the advantage of not knowing whether it's going to succeed.

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So everyone's absolutely trying their hearts out.

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But, you know, we've had 2 years of Doctor Who now, and they've learned from that, and I think series 3 benefits from it.

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I like what you're saying, but we've seen years and years.

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We've seen banana cucumber.

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We know that he's only happy.

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This is RTD when everything is up in the air, and it's the greatest show in the galaxy, and the clowns of evil are running the show, but he fears he's internal clowns as much as he celebrates them.

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I really do think if we'd had a full season five, I could not have done those 4 specials for an entire season, because it would have been woeful and indulgent in the worst way, and it would have all been the Jungian shadows are out in the park to play eating the tiny animals in the trees.

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It really would have been horrible and dark and indulgent because that's where Russell ends up.

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When he has a success.

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I know.

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I feel it.

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He doesn't feel he deserves it.

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He feels that it's all been pissed up against the wall.

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He hasn't tried hard enough.

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It's the curse of perfectionism.

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I think it would have been dire.

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So you're saying it's good that we had those specials because that allowed him to kind of have that little coder at the end.

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It's good that there's only 4 so I cannot watch them if I choose.

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Do you know?

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Do you know, I think there is...

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Do you know, I think there's a problem with the fact that the last 2 parter is a little bit polarising and that's not the case in any of the other Russell seasons.

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And so when people think about this season, if they don't like the finale, in your mind's eye, it brings it down a little bit, whereas actually on average, the call of the episodes is as good as any other year. agree with you.

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I mean, I was discussing last week.

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The final conclusion, I find a bit of a letdown.

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And so that sticks in my mind, and certainly having famous performance in that, which is not showing emotion, sticks in my mind.

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And that's not the case, like for the rest of the season.

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So it's interesting that you picked up on that.

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All in the family, the master's wife.

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So we're doing the American version of Tour Deathos Dupart, that had Warren Mitchell, but this one had Archie Bunker, which was called All in the Family, and launched the career of B. Arthur, as Cousin Maud.

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So how does that work with Doctor Who?

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Is she really spun off that?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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She was the cool, lefty educated aunt of all in the family.

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And then she gets to spin off good times.

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And then there's Maude.

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Yeah.

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And then there's good time.

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Good times a spinoff for that.

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It's a spinoff of Maude. amazing.

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There we go.

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A little bit of television history there.

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Yes, that's where I did take that.

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I think it's so clever.

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You know, the doctor has never had a wife.

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He's had a potential girlfriend.

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Nathan, you always talk to us about the Pertuy era, how the master is the alternative to the doctor, and in this time, the brigade is the wife.

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Very true.

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He leaves her at home and she gets moaney.

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Does that mean that Joe was just a bit on the side?

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Yeah.

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Oh, yeah.

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But we're talking about fiction.

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We are.

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We are.

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So I just think it's so delicious to have his companion being actually his wife.

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And she's so wonderfully portrayed.

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I think she's the best performance.

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It's super transgressive, actually, and you can actually see the doctor slightly shocked that, you know, the master's boning his companion is clearly kind of the sort of subtext of the beginning of sound of drums.

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And the doctor's actually quite shocked that the master has a wife and that is kind of... genitalia.

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That's right.

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But she is amazing.

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Like she is fabulously fabulously demented and increasingly so.

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And she's got that weird posh girl kind of way of speaking, but she gets sort of gradually more kind of unfocused and unhinged.

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And the best moment is that sort of bizarre white girl dance that she does in the cliffhanger to the sound of drum song.

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She's super, super strange.

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You can imagine she would have just lost her grip on anything with a year trapped with that master.

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Yeah.

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Well, I mean, it's said, isn't it?

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She learns that everything ends and that the world is utterly, completely meaningless and that the destiny of humanity is essentially hell.

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And so she loses it.

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She becomes like the master.

212
00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:05.700
We talked about this last week.

213
00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:19.740
And so there's a real kind of existential sort of philosophical unmooring that happens to her, which sort of underlies this weird, unfocused, strange performance.

214
00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:23.460
And the fact that, you know, we see her beaten as well.

215
00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:25.019
Well, I was going to say that earlier.

216
00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:26.820
I mean, Richard said he might marry Saxon.

217
00:16:26.940 --> 00:16:28.379
I said, well, be prepared for the shiner then.

218
00:16:28.440 --> 00:16:30.240
Yeah, yeah, yeah. avoiding him.

219
00:16:30.299 --> 00:16:45.299
Her performance in that last episode and just through looks and the body movement is, I think, just extraordinary, like how broken she actually is and the turmoil that she's going through, I just can't praise Lucy Saxon enough.

220
00:16:45.419 --> 00:16:49.200
Yeah, she's just been rifling through Russell's lollies draw, hasn't she?

221
00:16:49.259 --> 00:16:49.559
Really?

222
00:16:49.679 --> 00:16:52.500
I don't think there was much in that performance.

223
00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:57.419
You just, you know, I think I think the idea that she's kind of broken and mental.

224
00:16:57.539 --> 00:17:07.680
The doctor saves Francine from becoming like that by preventing her from killing the master in what I think is, you know, absolutely Francine's high point of the season.

225
00:17:07.740 --> 00:17:08.759
I really love that.

226
00:17:08.819 --> 00:17:10.799
And the doctor relieves her of the gun.

227
00:17:10.859 --> 00:17:13.740
And then Lucy, who's broken anyway, shoots him.

228
00:17:13.740 --> 00:17:21.599
And there's no kind of moral consequence for her because she's already kind of signed off when it comes to any kind of morality, I think.

229
00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:23.160
Peter?

230
00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:25.799
Dip into the box of delights, yeah?

231
00:17:25.859 --> 00:17:28.859
I also like the signifier of the sanguine dress.

232
00:17:28.920 --> 00:17:30.839
She's in red, isn't she of the final?

233
00:17:30.900 --> 00:17:34.799
Isn't she in white for the 1st partter and then in red for the second?

234
00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:36.359
Snow White and Rose Red.

235
00:17:36.420 --> 00:17:37.259
Possibly.

236
00:17:37.619 --> 00:17:42.660
I like the fact that she's got a black eye is not highlighted.

237
00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:46.619
No, they don't lampshade or draw attention to it in any way.

238
00:17:46.680 --> 00:17:49.740
And so it's possibly the most powerful image of the season.

239
00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:50.460
Yeah.

240
00:17:50.460 --> 00:17:51.299
Yeah.

241
00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:52.740
It's real proper evil.

242
00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:54.299
It's not cartoonish evil.

243
00:17:54.359 --> 00:17:57.000
It's the kind of evil that happens on our street, you know.

244
00:17:57.059 --> 00:17:59.700
It's just left to kind of speak for itself.

245
00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:06.000
I don't think the, you know, the kids may not have noticed or understood what it meant, but yeah, it's truly horrible.

246
00:18:06.059 --> 00:18:07.980
All right, so I picked from the box.

247
00:18:07.980 --> 00:18:10.500
Series three, the master slash John Sim.

248
00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:14.460
His general discussion about the master slash John Sim.

249
00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:20.460
No, no, I think it's some kind of, it's a writing prompt for some slash fig.

250
00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:24.000
Which master we ask ourselves.

251
00:18:24.059 --> 00:18:25.740
So, Peter Watson.

252
00:18:25.740 --> 00:18:26.700
Clearly, it's missy.

253
00:18:26.759 --> 00:18:29.519
So, Peter, what do you think of John Sims performance?

254
00:18:29.579 --> 00:18:35.940
Um, I'm going to do your trick, Todd, because at the time I wasn't entirely sure about it.

255
00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:41.339
It was such a radical departure from the way that the master's been portrayed in the past.

256
00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:49.019
I've grown to like it more and more because, as Nathan always says, they must should be the opposite of the doctor that they're facing.

257
00:18:49.079 --> 00:18:57.539
And so see him as a perfect opponent for David Tennant's kind of high energy sort of hog the scene kind of thing.

258
00:18:57.599 --> 00:18:59.220
And, you know, he comes and he takes over the show.

259
00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:01.920
And so it becomes the master show.

260
00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:05.160
And I don't think you could have done that with a Delgado style mask.

261
00:19:05.220 --> 00:19:09.480
You need someone who had his own energy and kind of was able to co-opt the show like that.

262
00:19:09.539 --> 00:19:13.440
And he'd also already had his own successful series.

263
00:19:13.500 --> 00:19:14.279
Yeah.

264
00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:19.859
And he might argue more successful than David's secondary parts in all the things he's done previously.

265
00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:23.759
You can absolutely see him coming in and being the star of the series.

266
00:19:23.819 --> 00:19:32.400
Yeah, it has to be plausible and the fact that they've chosen the star of the other big successful science fiction-ish series on TV.

267
00:19:32.460 --> 00:19:34.019
I think it's perfect casting.

268
00:19:34.140 --> 00:19:36.480
I still think Missy is probably better.

269
00:19:36.539 --> 00:19:45.539
And I think Missy works for the same reason that John Sim works, that she is a credible alternative doctor and she is more fun than the doctor.

270
00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:49.079
She has the advantage of absolutely being more fun than Capaldi's doctor.

271
00:19:49.140 --> 00:19:51.000
It just should have been Rebecca Frant.

272
00:19:51.059 --> 00:19:55.680
It should have been anyone who faced who faced Capaldi off in the thick of it.

273
00:19:56.099 --> 00:19:58.200
Paul.

274
00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:00.299
Poor Rebecca Front.

275
00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:05.460
Yeah, well, Chris Addison's there being exploded by Missy, so that's a thing that happens.

276
00:20:06.180 --> 00:20:08.099
In reality.

277
00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:19.079
Look, I think the big moment for the master, the 1st time it happens is in claws of Axos, where the master is vastly more fun than the doctor and he's working alongside unit, and that's what the master should be.

278
00:20:19.140 --> 00:20:21.960
The threat should be I'm going to take over the show.

279
00:20:22.019 --> 00:20:24.180
And I think John's him does an incredible job.

280
00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:26.099
I think he's really, really great.

281
00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:30.599
And it is just him being the other tenant, you know.

282
00:20:30.660 --> 00:20:35.819
It's, look, I think there are maybe one or 2 scenes where I kind of think I'm not quite sure that that came off.

283
00:20:35.880 --> 00:20:39.779
But on the whole, I just think he's incredible.

284
00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:44.460
I agree with you and Peter. on this.

285
00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:46.920
I've said it before.

286
00:20:47.039 --> 00:21:04.079
Like, I didn't like him at the time, but now I've completely changed my mind, and I think there is so much subtlety and undertones in his performance, and then he has those flashes of over the top, which at times I don't think necessarily work, but it is to try and be the opposite polar opposite of David Tennant doing his shtick.

287
00:21:04.140 --> 00:21:07.859
And I really, really enjoyed him this time round.

288
00:21:07.859 --> 00:21:13.859
And it's his performance that holds that last 2 part, well, the last episode in particular together.

289
00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:15.900
I'm really impressed.

290
00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:20.819
So when John Sim comes back um for series 10.

291
00:21:21.059 --> 00:21:26.460
I actually think it's a slightly better performance for being toned down a little bit.

292
00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:27.480
I agree.

293
00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:31.920
And I'm not entirely sure why that is because it's got all the elements of his master.

294
00:21:31.980 --> 00:21:33.000
It isn't quite as manic.

295
00:21:33.059 --> 00:21:38.759
He's also got Gomez taking up 98% of the screen whenever he's in the office.

296
00:21:38.819 --> 00:21:46.259
He's actually just, if you remember, back in the 70s and 80s, we had that little colour sidebar on the urge of early digital fracting of televisions.

297
00:21:46.259 --> 00:21:51.420
And that is actually John Sims in those scenes, because she's the entire rest of the production.

298
00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:56.279
Maybe it's also having a different doctor to act against and a different energy.

299
00:21:56.339 --> 00:22:01.859
You know, you see, I don't think I don't think the master is reacting against quality doctrine that he's reacting against Missy.

300
00:22:01.859 --> 00:22:05.099
And that's, yeah, so that's why he sort of slightly modified his performance.

301
00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:07.920
I think that Moffat doesn't quite...

302
00:22:07.980 --> 00:22:14.819
Well, he probably does get what made John seem work as the master, but he's deciding not to use that in this episode and that's fine.

303
00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:17.339
He's doing something. and highlight the change in missy.

304
00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:18.960
You might need a slightly more generic master.

305
00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:23.339
I also think that Moffat will not acknowledge anybody else's work.

306
00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:25.079
I think that's true.

307
00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:27.779
I think he's super generous towards RTD.

308
00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:43.380
I think he really likes RTD's work and I can see, particularly in series 5, that he is really self-consciously working within RTD's tradition clearing up some of RTD's plot holes, referencing things that have happened in RTDs, Doctor Who.

309
00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:46.500
I think he's very keen to give credit where credit's due to RTD.

310
00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:51.720
Isn't it interesting you say that because I've just pulled out all in the family, Francine?

311
00:22:54.420 --> 00:23:25.680
And I do actually feel that if there is, in fact, um, I was going to see Laurel and Hardy, but I could actually just as easily say Crawford and Davis, bet noir between Moffat and RTD, it is in the, and get out your bingo card for FT, the apotheosis of, of, um, of Martha's mother, as I believe she's actually just Stephen Moffat and Russell's, being very naughty. in the writing of her with the arched eyebrows and, you know, that pirly hair.

312
00:23:25.740 --> 00:23:26.640
The white powdery.

313
00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:27.299
Scottish accent.

314
00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:28.859
Scottish accent.

315
00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:38.039
The fact that she completely loses and wants to destroy everything around her and then somehow manages to pull it all back together at the end of the at the end of the season without shooting anyone.

316
00:23:38.099 --> 00:23:43.440
No, it's definitely the scene is written as Moffat as RTD sees him.

317
00:23:43.500 --> 00:23:49.019
I think I want RT to, if I have my wish from this, if you know, say it 3 times and it'll be a real series.

318
00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:54.539
I want to see Vicious rebooted with Moffat and RTD in that tiny apartment bitching at each other.

319
00:23:55.980 --> 00:23:58.259
Chibnall lives across the hall.

320
00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:04.440
Oh, in a fluffy slippers and pulling the bits of nylon balls off his card.

321
00:24:04.500 --> 00:24:05.519
Oh, it will be miserable.

322
00:24:05.579 --> 00:24:06.180
I can't wait.

323
00:24:06.599 --> 00:24:09.480
What else do we want to say about Francine?

324
00:24:09.539 --> 00:24:10.920
I think she's the linchpin of this series.

325
00:24:10.980 --> 00:24:30.779
I think she's, she is actually the face of, um, I wouldn't say conservatism because she doesn't strike me as conservative, but she is the face of modern median Britain, the middle, middle thinking of the middle-class of the middle purpose of the, I'm neither this nor that.

326
00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:41.160
I can see the respectful side of all arguments, but underneath is the seething fury of misappropriation of truths and that anger that nothing has actually turned out.

327
00:24:41.220 --> 00:24:46.440
She's the post-Blair middle class that was promised everything and has received nothing.

328
00:24:46.500 --> 00:24:52.680
And I actually find it also very interesting, that it's a black family because we have the Obama syndrome.

329
00:24:52.740 --> 00:24:53.819
Wouldn't that make a great film?

330
00:24:53.880 --> 00:25:00.420
But again, the promise of neoliberal loveliness and bloody nothing has really come out of it except more destruction.

331
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:01.980
You could say that's not his fault.

332
00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:12.119
However, we also know that the Obama administration was in favour of doing things that are entirely harmful to the economy and to the people, such as fracking and all the rest of it anyway.

333
00:25:12.180 --> 00:25:14.339
And they did nothing for the Chicago Blacks.

334
00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:16.980
And I know this because I've heard these people talk about it.

335
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:20.940
So I think that Francine is actually there to tell us that it's not working.

336
00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:23.460
So again, it comes back to Morphin.

337
00:25:24.539 --> 00:25:26.400
Nathan, Peter?

338
00:25:27.420 --> 00:25:30.779
Well, I mean, that's a really interesting reading.

339
00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:32.039
I hadn't actually thought about a lot of that.

340
00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:52.440
Can I just say on a more pure art level, that I went to the 50th anniversary convention in 2013, and they had a Mothers of RTD panel where they did with Camille and Anjoa and Donna's mum whose name escapes Jackie King.

341
00:25:52.500 --> 00:25:53.640
Yep, Jackie King.

342
00:25:53.700 --> 00:25:55.559
And it was amazing.

343
00:25:55.619 --> 00:25:59.519
That is absolutely, you know, my, yeah.

344
00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:00.480
Ultimately.

345
00:26:00.539 --> 00:26:01.079
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

346
00:26:01.140 --> 00:26:02.819
I didn't even know this happened.

347
00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:06.180
The listener can't say this, but Nathan has actually just turned into a Catherine wheel.

348
00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:08.279
Binny, right now.

349
00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:16.559
And I think she sometimes gets unfairly overlooked between, you know, obviously Camille is a goddess and Jackie's amazing.

350
00:26:16.619 --> 00:26:25.140
I think Francine is amazing in her own way, but because she's not instantly likeable because she's had kind of, you know, she's got a bit of a tough backstory.

351
00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:29.880
You know, she's trying to keep her family together, her husband's left over sort of, you know, the young blonde.

352
00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:33.839
And, you know, there's things which have gone wrong in her life and she's bitter about them.

353
00:26:33.900 --> 00:26:35.279
I'm right.

354
00:26:35.339 --> 00:26:48.299
I also think too, you know, there's that angry black lady thing where we're much more likely to we're much more likely to have a kind of negative reaction to black women who are cross.

355
00:26:48.359 --> 00:26:51.119
And it's a sort of famous meme and stuff.

356
00:26:51.180 --> 00:26:53.579
And so she comes in, she's instantly annoyed.

357
00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:55.140
She's annoyed with Clive.

358
00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:57.299
She's really brisk and businesslike.

359
00:26:57.359 --> 00:27:00.660
She doesn't like the doctor and is initially suspicious of him.

360
00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:05.099
And it's obvious that Russell is toying with us.

361
00:27:05.160 --> 00:27:07.380
He knows how much we loved Camille.

362
00:27:07.380 --> 00:27:09.539
And here's another mum.

363
00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:13.079
Maybe we get another great mum and she, I think she's wonderful.

364
00:27:13.140 --> 00:27:24.539
I do think that later on in the season when it all just becomes about, I'm worried about Martha being in danger, that that's a little bit tiresome and we'll see more of that next year.

365
00:27:24.599 --> 00:27:31.440
But I still love that moment, that fabulous sort of film noir moment in the cage with her and her husband.

366
00:27:31.500 --> 00:27:34.740
Plotting to kill the master and kissing one another and stuff.

367
00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:37.380
I think she is, she's really something.

368
00:27:37.380 --> 00:27:41.460
And I would have given my right arm to be at that panel, Peter.

369
00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:48.059
I want to thank Nathan for helping me rehabilitate Francine.

370
00:27:48.119 --> 00:27:50.880
I used to just go around saying how much I hated her.

371
00:27:50.940 --> 00:27:53.160
Why did you feel like that at the time then?

372
00:27:53.220 --> 00:27:58.380
I just, you know, she was just so horrible to the doctor out of nowhere.

373
00:27:58.440 --> 00:28:00.059
I've wanted to be her for years.

374
00:28:01.079 --> 00:28:04.500
But also her irritation is amusing.

375
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:11.279
I mean, it's written to be funny, the way that she chafes against the doctor and that, and it is, her gritted teeth kind of performance is really funny.

376
00:28:11.339 --> 00:28:12.720
There's that moment.

377
00:28:12.779 --> 00:28:25.980
She's super vulnerable where David Tennant rushes out of the room in Lazarus experiment and bumps her and knocks her drink over, but he actually hits her quite hard and she's kind of a bit like she's physically shaken by it.

378
00:28:26.039 --> 00:28:28.500
And it is just that doctor.

379
00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:35.759
He's so oblivious and he's such, like, he needs Francine to smack him in the face, I reckon.

380
00:28:35.819 --> 00:28:41.519
And she responds like any normal person would to that kind of, you know, bubbling ball of energy coming true.

381
00:28:41.579 --> 00:28:42.720
It's just like, stop for a second.

382
00:28:42.779 --> 00:28:43.019
Stop.

383
00:28:43.079 --> 00:28:43.259
What?

384
00:28:43.319 --> 00:28:43.799
Stop.

385
00:28:44.400 --> 00:29:03.420
And it is it is being the daughter's boyfriend. you know, and having to kind of face up to the mother the next morning after they've been out all night or whatever and putting the doctor in that position, where he's absolutely incapable of properly dealing with it, where Francine kind of wins that interaction.

386
00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:04.259
I think is wonderful.

387
00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:11.579
I've seen a lot more subtly in her performance and certainly 2nd guessing, actually working with the Saxon people.

388
00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:14.940
And by the end of it, I really felt for her.

389
00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:25.019
And it's a shame in a way that you don't get to see a follow-up story to see what the interaction with the doctor and her would actually be like after the, you know, the events at the end of the season.

390
00:29:25.079 --> 00:29:31.799
You get that begrudging look, you know, of, yes, we know where we're at, you know, with each other.

391
00:29:31.859 --> 00:29:36.119
And I actually think it's one of the, I think it's a wonderful look.

392
00:29:36.180 --> 00:29:37.799
Like it just sums up everything.

393
00:29:37.980 --> 00:29:38.819
Yep, I respect you.

394
00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:40.859
We know where we're at with things.

395
00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:46.740
I think it's a shame in some ways that, you know, when she goes into the doctor's arms in that in that final episode.

396
00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:51.420
It's so brief because we've got to then focus on John Sim.

397
00:29:51.480 --> 00:29:54.359
But I've come to appreciate her performance.

398
00:29:54.420 --> 00:29:57.599
I'm never going to love her, but I love her.

399
00:29:58.500 --> 00:30:05.460
I have come not to hate her and I like her a lot more and I can see where they're going with the character.

400
00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:10.140
I kind of wish that we'd had a couple of episodes build up rather than just in the focus in the one episode.

401
00:30:10.200 --> 00:30:13.680
I do find personally, it's a bit forced.

402
00:30:13.740 --> 00:30:16.559
I find that it's not perhaps organic enough.

403
00:30:16.619 --> 00:30:23.759
But that's the gift of putting truly great performers into median but, you know, significant roles.

404
00:30:23.819 --> 00:30:28.799
So again, she's tertiary to the drama, being the parent, but she's an absolutely linch pin through this.

405
00:30:28.859 --> 00:30:37.079
And if you want to say it, perhaps she's Martha Superego or Martha's consciousness or Martha's practical self.

406
00:30:37.140 --> 00:30:40.140
Martha's adult self, whereas Martha is still the puppy.

407
00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:48.299
So Martha, at her current stage, you know, a personal evolution is more like the tenant doctor, but who she actually is at core is her mother.

408
00:30:48.420 --> 00:30:51.660
And possibly a little bit of Clive is the playfulness.

409
00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:56.819
But no, no, I honestly think she's the most significant, if you look at the arc of the companion in this.

410
00:30:56.880 --> 00:31:02.640
It's the mother that gives us the mettle of who this person actually is.

411
00:31:02.700 --> 00:31:14.579
And because Martha herself, we've said it, is not, and I've also said this to begin with, and it may not have been kind, but she doesn't have the experience yet as an actress to necessarily carry the whole series.

412
00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:15.599
And Russell knew that.

413
00:31:15.660 --> 00:31:19.559
So she is, in fact, a Gestalt of all the parts of her family.

414
00:31:19.619 --> 00:31:21.779
And it is a shame that we didn't get to see more of them.

415
00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:24.900
I would have been happy with Francine in every single episode of Nathan.

416
00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:25.380
How do you feel?

417
00:31:25.440 --> 00:31:26.579
Yep, no, please.

418
00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:28.319
Well, we got a bonus episode of her as a cat.

419
00:31:37.380 --> 00:31:39.359
This one's for all of us, I think.

420
00:31:39.420 --> 00:31:44.759
So we want to talk about our favourite guest stars for the season.

421
00:31:45.059 --> 00:31:48.599
So I might just have to go for the 2 obvious ones.

422
00:31:48.660 --> 00:31:49.259
Okay.

423
00:31:49.259 --> 00:32:02.160
And I think it's Derek Jacoby, who is obviously sort of massive overcasting for Doctor Who. although he's absolutely not unhappy to slum at in genre television, as he said many times.

424
00:32:02.220 --> 00:32:04.740
And I think he's really terrific.

425
00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:08.819
I think he's perfect as a way of introducing the master, but he's not just that.

426
00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:10.799
He's a really great character on his own.

427
00:32:10.859 --> 00:32:13.920
I think he's performance in utopia is spectacular.

428
00:32:13.980 --> 00:32:17.819
And then his performance as the master is also spectacular.

429
00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:19.680
So I'm going to go for Derek Jacobi.

430
00:32:19.740 --> 00:32:23.099
It's partly emotional resonance of utopia that you lose that master.

431
00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:24.180
Yeah, yeah.

432
00:32:24.240 --> 00:32:26.519
Yeah, who we offer was a future doctor.

433
00:32:26.579 --> 00:32:28.019
Well, of course, you know, part of me did.

434
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:29.759
So it's an alternate doctor or, you know.

435
00:32:29.819 --> 00:32:35.759
I think we talked at the time that there'd beat enough spoilers that I was pretty certain that going...

436
00:32:35.819 --> 00:32:38.819
It's hard to remember back, but like a gut feeling, we all knew, didn't we?

437
00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:39.539
Yeah, yeah.

438
00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:42.900
But and he'd played the master in the curse of Paul Cornell.

439
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:44.519
Yeah, in the curse of Paul Cornell, quiet.

440
00:32:44.579 --> 00:32:46.559
And so we'd already sort of seen that.

441
00:32:46.619 --> 00:32:53.460
So he would be my favourite male guest star and my favourite female guest star would have to be Jessica Hines as well.

442
00:32:53.519 --> 00:32:57.960
Well, I just think she's incredible and it's an amazing bit of casting.

443
00:32:58.019 --> 00:33:05.339
There's no surprise that Russell will go back to her next year because she's a hugely important person in the doctor's life.

444
00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:08.039
She gets to critique the doctor's morality.

445
00:33:08.099 --> 00:33:13.319
And it's a really strong performance, a really likeable performance, and we get to be with her for 2 episodes.

446
00:33:13.380 --> 00:33:14.339
I think she was great.

447
00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:14.819
That's interesting.

448
00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:21.180
I wish it does, sorry, Richard, when she does come back in end of time, it's possibly the single most affecting scene in the entire story.

449
00:33:21.240 --> 00:33:23.160
I'd completely forgotten that happened.

450
00:33:23.220 --> 00:33:24.900
I've watched it again yet.

451
00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:26.220
Not that affecting them.

452
00:33:26.460 --> 00:33:28.140
I guess not.

453
00:33:28.200 --> 00:33:30.960
Carrie Mulligan, Carrie Mulligan, Carrie Mulligan.

454
00:33:31.019 --> 00:33:31.380
There you go.

455
00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:32.339
Big finish series.

456
00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:37.619
But we can't get her because she was already too big and popular, even right after shooting this.

457
00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:46.500
She did an education straight after this. which is an amazing film set in the 60th with, I think, column Firth, because it's always got column Firth. doesn't matter if it isn't him, does it?

458
00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:47.160
They're all the same.

459
00:33:47.579 --> 00:33:49.859
Sorry, boys, but you are.

460
00:33:50.339 --> 00:33:53.220
Hugh Grant, they're all just Hugh Grant, aren't they?

461
00:33:53.279 --> 00:33:55.680
Isn't they just splitting him up on a petri dish and make lots of him?

462
00:33:55.740 --> 00:33:57.660
So yeah, Carrie Mulligan.

463
00:33:57.779 --> 00:34:00.599
What a shame, but she just makes that whole thing glow.

464
00:34:00.660 --> 00:34:02.099
I agree with you.

465
00:34:02.160 --> 00:34:06.960
She is my pick because without that performance of Sally Sparrow.

466
00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:10.739
If that had fallen flat, then that episode just put into a being sold.

467
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:12.059
We were really lucky to have.

468
00:34:12.119 --> 00:34:12.539
Yeah.

469
00:34:12.599 --> 00:34:18.659
I think Stephen Moffa has type when he writes very strong women.

470
00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:23.579
He essentially writes the same character every time and they live or die on the strength of the performance.

471
00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:26.579
And so she is the apotheosis of this.

472
00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:30.119
She's so warm and she's actually quite a cool character.

473
00:34:30.179 --> 00:34:36.300
She's not, she doesn't respond to people around her in warm and empathetic ways in a lot of the time.

474
00:34:36.360 --> 00:34:39.000
But Kerry brings so much to that.

475
00:34:39.059 --> 00:34:45.599
So you compare that to say, you know, I don't think Jenna Coleman was particularly good companion as Clara.

476
00:34:45.659 --> 00:34:53.099
It's essentially the same kind of character, but you get an actress who's very warm playing Sally Sparrow, an actress who's not as warm playing.

477
00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:57.420
There are gradations in Mulligan's performance and subtleties.

478
00:34:57.480 --> 00:35:00.059
And it's just, it's the Rig principle. what Diana Rigg did.

479
00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:01.139
You just work with your eyes.

480
00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:02.699
Hartnell did it as well.

481
00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:03.420
Just use your eyes.

482
00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:06.960
Don't think about any other part of your face or your body, and everything else will follow through.

483
00:35:07.019 --> 00:35:08.099
It's an actor's tick.

484
00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:09.119
She does it perfectly.

485
00:35:09.179 --> 00:35:10.440
Crawford did it actually.

486
00:35:10.500 --> 00:35:14.039
It's kind of, yeah, it's kind of called the Crawford principle.

487
00:35:14.099 --> 00:35:16.079
But it really works.

488
00:35:16.139 --> 00:35:16.800
Yeah.

489
00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:21.599
And Coleman, I guess, was, yeah, different motivations as an actor, but you're right.

490
00:35:21.659 --> 00:35:33.119
I never felt, I felt all the tricks, you can feel Coleman's brilliance for getting ahead of ourselves, but technically and all the rest of it, she's a fine performer and there's so much going on in her head, but Mulligan, just warmth and heart.

491
00:35:33.179 --> 00:35:34.619
And you can see who's going to be the star.

492
00:35:34.679 --> 00:35:40.199
Well, basically, you've got Stephen Mothat bringing his A game and Blink is not just a science fiction story.

493
00:35:40.260 --> 00:35:42.960
It's a romantic comedy as well.

494
00:35:43.019 --> 00:35:44.159
And an annual story.

495
00:35:44.219 --> 00:35:45.539
Exactly.

496
00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:52.739
And so you've got someone who will go on to be an absolute A-Lister in Hollywood headlining a romantic comedy for Doctor Who.

497
00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:56.219
And so you get that scene in the hospital room.

498
00:35:56.280 --> 00:36:05.219
It's the same rain, which is so heartbreakingly brilliant and sort of based on those 2 performances that it transcends Doctor Who, really.

499
00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:06.659
And, you know, a lot of let's down to carry.

500
00:36:06.840 --> 00:36:18.179
Did you watch that dire Brobdignagian hurtling juggernaut, otherwise known as the Great Gatsby, and see...

501
00:36:18.179 --> 00:36:18.840
Is she in that?

502
00:36:18.900 --> 00:36:21.420
She's she's, um, she plays Daisy.

503
00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:25.079
Right, right. in that terrible. everything that man does is a terrible film.

504
00:36:25.139 --> 00:36:26.219
I can't say his name out loud.

505
00:36:26.460 --> 00:36:33.840
But I just watching her thinking, well, it's dear little Sally Sparrow in the wrong place again at the wrong time.

506
00:36:34.019 --> 00:36:36.900
We talked a little bit about Jessica Hines as well.

507
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:42.539
Can I just make honourable mentions from that story for Harry Lloyd, who's amazing, and Rebecca Staten, mother of mine.

508
00:36:42.599 --> 00:36:44.219
They're both.

509
00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:45.539
Isn't she gorgeous?

510
00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:45.960
Yes.

511
00:36:46.019 --> 00:36:56.519
From memory, I think we do spend a bit of time talking about Harry Lloyd's performance in our episodes because it's very strange and very, very well judged.

512
00:36:56.579 --> 00:37:01.860
It just teeters on the brink of going horribly wrong and doesn't fall over the edge.

513
00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:14.159
And that one moment where he has a demented reading of some lines, when he calls for the scarecrows and just one word, soldiers, and the way he delivers it over his shoulder, this weird pitch is amazing.

514
00:37:14.159 --> 00:37:20.699
All right, so I've just drawn out of the box series three.

515
00:37:20.760 --> 00:37:28.260
The favourite stories, improved stories, stories that perhaps didn't quite work.

516
00:37:28.500 --> 00:37:30.420
I'm going to start.

517
00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:32.880
So my favourite, obviously, is blink.

518
00:37:32.940 --> 00:37:38.159
I think it's astounding and I was really surprised that the sound of drums is the runner-up for the season for me.

519
00:37:38.219 --> 00:37:39.539
I just think it's magnificent.

520
00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:42.300
They are the 2 standouts for me for the year.

521
00:37:43.079 --> 00:37:47.699
In my honourable mentions, up to the family, a blood episode.

522
00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:51.900
My favourite episode is actually the Shakespeare code, which I just enjoy thoroughly.

523
00:37:51.960 --> 00:37:54.599
I think there's a really good standard throughout the season.

524
00:37:54.659 --> 00:37:56.159
I mentioned ages ago.

525
00:37:56.219 --> 00:37:58.019
I think the premiere surprised me.

526
00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:01.619
Every time I watch the Lazarus experiment, I enjoy it more and more.

527
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:08.820
At the other end of the barrel, the dalek 2 parter is the one that I like the least, but that's not to say I didn't like it.

528
00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:10.800
I think the Daleks are good.

529
00:38:10.860 --> 00:38:17.099
I think, Cholula and Laslow and Solomon, are great performances.

530
00:38:17.159 --> 00:38:19.139
I like the ideas in there.

531
00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:24.480
It's just it just feels very, the structure of it feels very clunky and weighed it down for me and I just didn't connect with it.

532
00:38:24.539 --> 00:38:31.619
So, but having said that, I previously considered it to be an absolute fear her, but I don't consider that anymore.

533
00:38:31.679 --> 00:38:32.880
I see a lot of positives in it.

534
00:38:32.940 --> 00:38:38.880
So, you know, if it's the lull in the season, you know, that's okay. you know, that's where I stand.

535
00:38:39.719 --> 00:38:43.679
I think human nature and family blood are the best of the season.

536
00:38:43.739 --> 00:38:53.460
There's just an emotional resonance to those episodes and an atmosphere to them that you don't often find in Doctor Who, very sober.

537
00:38:53.639 --> 00:38:56.940
Because it's an important thing happening to the doctor.

538
00:38:57.059 --> 00:39:02.639
And prior to Stephen Moffat, episodes don't obviously focus on the doctor very much.

539
00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:06.480
The doctor sort of comes in and is an agent of change.

540
00:39:06.539 --> 00:39:09.420
The episodes are not about the doctor, whereas that definitely is.

541
00:39:09.480 --> 00:39:17.760
And also it's got an added cachet because it was obviously based on human nature, the new adventure novel, which was already a beloved novel.

542
00:39:17.820 --> 00:39:18.659
So it had a lot to live up to.

543
00:39:18.719 --> 00:39:20.340
See, I really like them.

544
00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:22.500
I love blink, obviously, there's a lot going on there.

545
00:39:22.559 --> 00:39:23.699
Utopia is amazing.

546
00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:36.900
I think I've said to Nathan at some point that he and I both really like utopia because if you've got that bleak 7 gene where you quite enjoy kind of primitives wandering around on the surface of a planet, then you are likely to enjoy that.

547
00:39:37.019 --> 00:39:38.519
And I'm with Todd as well.

548
00:39:38.579 --> 00:39:41.400
I think Shakespeare code is better than people give it credit for.

549
00:39:41.460 --> 00:39:52.440
It sort of gets a bit of a panning sometimes or people are muted in their praise, whereas actually it's just a rollicking, good, fun, and quite, quite interesting adventure.

550
00:39:52.500 --> 00:39:54.480
It is so much fun.

551
00:39:54.539 --> 00:40:00.239
The only thing that bothered me with Shakespeare code was the central casting of Dean Lennox Kelly.

552
00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:01.500
Yeah, it didn't work for me.

553
00:40:01.559 --> 00:40:02.579
Everything else is great.

554
00:40:02.760 --> 00:40:05.280
And a great season opener as well.

555
00:40:05.340 --> 00:40:08.699
People don't often talk about Smith and Jones, but you know, what a cool episode.

556
00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:10.079
It's very solid.

557
00:40:10.139 --> 00:40:15.179
I think it's extraordinarily well written, having to introduce so many new elements and a whole new family.

558
00:40:15.239 --> 00:40:21.059
And it's the only time that he actually has to introduce a home besides, obviously, roads.

559
00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:25.260
You know, the other two, he's got elements that are already in place or we've seen before.

560
00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:29.639
I actually think in terms of the actual intricacy of the writing of that episode.

561
00:40:29.699 --> 00:40:30.780
I think it's extraordinary.

562
00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:34.860
It may even be better than next year's opener in terms of the I know.

563
00:40:34.920 --> 00:40:37.500
You know, I'm throwing that out there in terms of the actual writing.

564
00:40:37.559 --> 00:40:43.980
I'm not saying I enjoy it more than next year's, but there's just something about it that I actually thought there's something in this episode, really.

565
00:40:44.039 --> 00:40:55.500
I am delighted to hear love for RTDs series openers because too often they're sort of dismissed as sort of romps or lightweight or whatever, but I think they're all just fantastic.

566
00:40:55.619 --> 00:40:56.460
I love them all.

567
00:40:56.519 --> 00:41:00.300
They are often romps and they are often lightweight and they are amazing.

568
00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:01.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

569
00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:01.980
Yeah.

570
00:41:02.039 --> 00:41:03.780
I want lightweight romps in Doctor Who.

571
00:41:03.840 --> 00:41:04.440
Yeah, absolutely.

572
00:41:04.619 --> 00:41:07.739
My favourite episode of the season is still gridlock.

573
00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:17.820
I think it is amazing and it has so much to say and it is Russell sort of going full allegorical and just raising all sorts of interesting issues.

574
00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:30.059
It has so much going for it and it has my favourite moment of the season, which is the singing of the old rugged cross, which I'm going to stop talking about now because I'm already tearing up a bit.

575
00:41:30.119 --> 00:41:31.199
I think it's beautiful.

576
00:41:31.260 --> 00:41:32.820
It's a great piece of work.

577
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:34.800
That was like me watching 42.

578
00:41:34.980 --> 00:41:36.599
I'm old and rugged and I was very cross.

579
00:41:38.760 --> 00:41:42.360
Richard, are there any other episodes for you that stand out?

580
00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:45.659
Oh, that's still a draw dialects in Manhattan.

581
00:41:45.780 --> 00:41:47.579
I really do.

582
00:41:47.639 --> 00:41:50.820
It makes my heart jump in the same way that the other ones do.

583
00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:57.719
Isn't it nice that he's given something for all the kaleidoscopic colours in fanboyness or fan personness?

584
00:41:57.780 --> 00:42:00.179
All of us came up with different answers to that question.

585
00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:01.260
I think that's wonderful.

586
00:42:01.320 --> 00:42:02.280
Just awesome.

587
00:42:11.340 --> 00:42:14.880
Series three, David Tennant and Freema Edgeman.

588
00:42:14.940 --> 00:42:16.920
Ooh, I think that was a Todd favourite.

589
00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:20.400
No, I want I want Petey to get a snog Mario boy.

590
00:42:20.460 --> 00:42:23.039
I haven't won yet, but would you like me to choose again?

591
00:42:23.099 --> 00:42:24.599
Let's discuss these two.

592
00:42:25.320 --> 00:42:27.719
Okay, Freeman's amazing.

593
00:42:27.780 --> 00:42:31.440
She's got a lot of charisma and she makes mouth work.

594
00:42:31.500 --> 00:42:36.300
Martha is not a particularly well-written character in episodes that Russell doesn't rise.

595
00:42:36.360 --> 00:42:37.920
She gets a bit lost in the mix.

596
00:42:37.980 --> 00:42:39.179
That's really good point.

597
00:42:39.300 --> 00:42:42.599
Yeah, Russell comes back to her and kind of, you know, bolsters her.

598
00:42:42.659 --> 00:42:45.960
But yeah, she's kind of written as generic companion.

599
00:42:46.019 --> 00:42:47.219
And I think...

600
00:42:47.219 --> 00:42:49.320
Or dispossessed girlfriend.

601
00:42:49.380 --> 00:42:52.920
Yeah, she kind of gets stuck in that role a little bit.

602
00:42:52.980 --> 00:42:55.320
And so she gets kind of in scenes.

603
00:42:55.380 --> 00:42:58.800
She gets those kind of, you know, looking forlorn in the background and you don't want that.

604
00:42:58.860 --> 00:43:12.300
I think the problem, you know, there isn't really a problem, but as it were, the problem is that you get someone like Billy Piper and Catherine Tate, and they are able to pitch a performance that's a little bit more than naturalistic.

605
00:43:12.360 --> 00:43:16.440
It's kind of very slightly heightened and it reaches that Doctor Who level that you need.

606
00:43:16.500 --> 00:43:17.460
Liz Sladen did it.

607
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:19.739
Katie Manning did it back in the old days.

608
00:43:19.800 --> 00:43:21.900
I don't think Freema manages to do that.

609
00:43:21.960 --> 00:43:23.579
I think she's a fine actress.

610
00:43:23.639 --> 00:43:29.340
I think she's very charismatic, but she doesn't quite, she sometimes gets lost in the scenes a little bit.

611
00:43:29.400 --> 00:43:33.900
So if a scene is good for Martha, then Freema is brilliant in it.

612
00:43:33.960 --> 00:43:39.659
If a scene is not good for Martha, I don't know if she brings it light in a way that Catherine Tate lights up every scene.

613
00:43:40.320 --> 00:43:42.900
I think that's a really good observation.

614
00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:51.659
I think because David's so big and so over the top, in a way that sometimes, you know, crosses the line into being irritating.

615
00:43:51.719 --> 00:43:54.840
She does tend to get it a little bit swamped.

616
00:43:54.960 --> 00:43:58.559
What I remember most of all is when she was cast.

617
00:43:58.619 --> 00:44:11.579
There was a video from her trailer that was put up on the internet and just the sheer joy and enthusiasm, her excitement about being in Doctor Who was so lovely.

618
00:44:11.579 --> 00:44:15.059
And that does come across in her performance.

619
00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:17.820
As you said, Peter, she's so charismatic.

620
00:44:17.940 --> 00:44:19.980
She's so, so likeable.

621
00:44:20.039 --> 00:44:29.460
And there are real moments when she gets to be a bit cheeky or a bit snarky, which happens all too rarely, I think, for maybe the reasons that you outlined, Peter.

622
00:44:29.519 --> 00:44:31.139
She's just great.

623
00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:34.199
She's just great and she does get lost in the mix.

624
00:44:34.260 --> 00:44:35.460
I think it is a shame.

625
00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:44.699
She is kind of surrounded by 2 incredible companions in, you know, Rose and and Donna.

626
00:44:44.760 --> 00:44:48.780
And so she does tend to get overlooked, but that is an injustice, I think.

627
00:44:48.840 --> 00:44:49.320
She's wonderful.

628
00:44:49.380 --> 00:44:51.239
Yes, you're absolutely right.

629
00:44:51.300 --> 00:44:53.519
She gets overshadowed by David Tennon in some scenes.

630
00:44:53.579 --> 00:44:57.659
If you get scenes where she's with other characters, like her scenes with Jenny in human nature.

631
00:44:57.719 --> 00:44:58.619
She's great.

632
00:44:58.679 --> 00:45:01.440
Like, absolutely holds her own to really good.

633
00:45:01.500 --> 00:45:05.400
I just, yeah, I think there's something about a style of performance that's required.

634
00:45:05.460 --> 00:45:13.920
And can I just add that I know some people who worked on the production team and unanimously, they say that Freema is an absolutely delightful person and that counts for a lot.

635
00:45:14.039 --> 00:45:18.360
It really does, because you're under so much pressure just being yourself.

636
00:45:18.420 --> 00:45:21.539
So it just shows that, you know, she's born to play the part.

637
00:45:21.599 --> 00:45:24.420
What's tenant seem like on set?

638
00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:26.639
Oh, I think everybody in life stated.

639
00:45:26.639 --> 00:45:27.179
Yeah.

640
00:45:27.239 --> 00:45:27.360
Yeah.

641
00:45:27.480 --> 00:45:29.940
I've said it before and I'll say it again.

642
00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:38.099
I was just blown away by her performance, watching it this time through and I reiterate that I think she's terribly underrated.

643
00:45:38.159 --> 00:45:40.440
There's just a warmth and there's a cheekiness.

644
00:45:40.500 --> 00:45:49.739
I think it's such a shame that Martha is laboured with the unrequited love, which by the time it gets into the Dalek 2 parter.

645
00:45:49.800 --> 00:45:51.360
I dont want another conversation about it.

646
00:45:51.360 --> 00:45:54.239
And they go away from that from few episodes, which is great.

647
00:45:54.480 --> 00:46:01.019
I dislike the way in which the doctor treats Martha for a lot of the season, certainly early on.

648
00:46:01.139 --> 00:46:10.019
And perhaps that respect that the doctor should be giving to that character you don't really see until perhaps when she turns up next season.

649
00:46:10.440 --> 00:46:14.639
David's performance. again, I really enjoy him in the moment.

650
00:46:14.699 --> 00:46:22.980
There's some shtick that he does at certain times perhaps towards the end of the season where it does get irritating.

651
00:46:23.639 --> 00:46:25.920
But he's certainly confident.

652
00:46:25.980 --> 00:46:29.219
I mean, we're now in a season where we've got nobody from season one.

653
00:46:29.460 --> 00:46:39.480
So the show is his own to do with, and I enjoy them together immensely, and I enjoy him when I'm watching him 95% of the time.

654
00:46:39.539 --> 00:46:46.440
And he definitely tapped into something because I think this was the season where he absolutely took off with the viewing public.

655
00:46:46.500 --> 00:46:49.260
He was very popular in his 1st season. ratings were good.

656
00:46:49.320 --> 00:46:54.780
But I think in this season, he somehow transcended that and became iconic.

657
00:46:54.840 --> 00:46:56.280
I don't necessarily see it.

658
00:46:56.340 --> 00:46:58.079
I think he's an absolutely fine doctor.

659
00:46:58.199 --> 00:46:59.039
I really enjoy watching him.

660
00:46:59.099 --> 00:47:00.420
He's not one of my absolute favourites.

661
00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:02.039
But for the general public.

662
00:47:02.099 --> 00:47:02.880
He tapped into something.

663
00:47:02.940 --> 00:47:04.320
He really captured something.

664
00:47:10.380 --> 00:47:16.619
Senog, marry, avoid, the Dolby Doctor, Professor Lazarus, a half human Dalek.

665
00:47:17.219 --> 00:47:20.699
Oh, it's, you know where you are, listener.

666
00:47:20.760 --> 00:47:25.619
Well, obviously, I wish that polygamy was legal and I could marry all of them.

667
00:47:25.679 --> 00:47:26.699
Well, that would be amazing.

668
00:47:26.760 --> 00:47:28.559
Well, that's exactly it.

669
00:47:28.619 --> 00:47:30.300
Corey Bernardi food.

670
00:47:30.599 --> 00:47:32.400
Well, let's see.

671
00:47:32.460 --> 00:47:40.980
I think I would snog the Dobby doctor because then you could just, you know, have you been of a snogging session, pop in mini's cage and watch TV together.

672
00:47:41.039 --> 00:47:41.519
That'd be great.

673
00:47:42.179 --> 00:47:44.699
Professor Lazarus.

674
00:47:44.760 --> 00:47:49.679
I would definitely, I would definitely marry Professor Lazarus, because Mark Gatis is delightful.

675
00:47:49.739 --> 00:47:51.659
He's just a...

676
00:47:51.659 --> 00:47:56.639
You're going to avoid that creature. popping up every so often to suck the energy out of other people and then.

677
00:47:56.820 --> 00:47:58.559
Who's to say I don't like that kind of thing, John?

678
00:47:59.400 --> 00:48:01.079
And what?

679
00:48:01.079 --> 00:48:08.159
Avoid, oh, definitely avoid the half human dialect because no one can have that many sort of suspiciously shaped tendril things coming at you.

680
00:48:08.219 --> 00:48:10.500
No, no, it's eye watering.

681
00:48:10.559 --> 00:48:14.460
Friday night has rapidly ascended to Saturday morning.

682
00:48:17.519 --> 00:48:19.139
All in the family.

683
00:48:19.260 --> 00:48:21.059
Martha's dead and Annalise.

684
00:48:21.119 --> 00:48:22.500
Lace.

685
00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:25.739
I actually think Annalise is one of the great characters.

686
00:48:25.800 --> 00:48:27.539
Doctor New History.

687
00:48:27.659 --> 00:48:31.079
So do I. I'm really disappointed we never get to see her again.

688
00:48:31.139 --> 00:48:32.039
No, it's terrible.

689
00:48:32.099 --> 00:48:32.579
It is terrible.

690
00:48:32.639 --> 00:48:41.699
I think the wicked tragedy is that the Sarah Jane adventures didn't cross over into this season and that she would have simply been neighbours with Clive and Annalise.

691
00:48:41.760 --> 00:48:45.539
Alternative universe and Elise becomes the master's wife in sound of drums.

692
00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:58.559
Actually, interesting observation because it's almost the same character, if you can see the arc, but simply that one is working class than the other king from the other side, but they are very similar in their, in their, shall we say, aspirations?

693
00:48:58.619 --> 00:49:09.300
How about there's another hidden depth to Annalise, and she's the woman in either Lazar Experiment or 42, who's there saying to Francine, yes, keep the recording going, Francine.

694
00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:10.380
That would have been amazing.

695
00:49:11.219 --> 00:49:20.820
I think that Russell absolutely nails it with 2 fantastic female characters in 2 consecutive episodes.

696
00:49:20.880 --> 00:49:28.380
And so we have Neris, and then Annalise, and they are 2 of my absolute favourite people.

697
00:49:28.440 --> 00:49:29.280
They are awesome.

698
00:49:29.340 --> 00:49:36.840
And can you imagine either Neres or Annalise or really any woman at all being in a Hingecliff episode.

699
00:49:36.900 --> 00:49:45.119
You know, like it has really taken Doctor Who to a really fun new place where it's able to do sort of comedy at a much more convenient.

700
00:49:45.179 --> 00:49:48.900
The closest we ever got was pert wee dressing as the washer warmer in green tea.

701
00:49:50.219 --> 00:49:57.000
And also, they're very different characters because Neres is not a very nice person from what we've seen.

702
00:49:57.059 --> 00:49:59.099
Whereas Analisa actually appears to be really nice.

703
00:49:59.159 --> 00:50:01.619
She's sort of a bit dumb though, isn't she?

704
00:50:01.679 --> 00:50:04.800
But so does live is a bit as well.

705
00:50:04.860 --> 00:50:06.900
She's a Kardashian viewer.

706
00:50:06.960 --> 00:50:07.739
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

707
00:50:07.800 --> 00:50:09.179
He seduced me.

708
00:50:09.239 --> 00:50:11.519
That still sticks with me that line.

709
00:50:11.579 --> 00:50:12.960
It's just so hilarious.

710
00:50:13.019 --> 00:50:16.860
Like he's that capable of seducing her because he's such a...

711
00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:18.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

712
00:50:18.059 --> 00:50:20.099
He's, um...

713
00:50:20.099 --> 00:50:22.440
Look, I quite like him.

714
00:50:22.500 --> 00:50:33.179
I quite like how one of the side effects of that year of hell is that we assume that Francine and Clive are now back together and the family is fixed.

715
00:50:33.239 --> 00:50:33.900
I think we do.

716
00:50:33.960 --> 00:50:42.780
I think, you know, at the end of series two, one of the things that the doctor does, even though he leaves Billy stranded and unable to ever see him again.

717
00:50:42.840 --> 00:50:51.000
He manages inadvertently to fix the big hole in her family that had been there from the very beginning, that the father is dead.

718
00:50:51.059 --> 00:50:57.539
We learn about that, what, in episode 3 of series one, that Rose's father's not with us anymore.

719
00:50:57.599 --> 00:51:01.619
And after travelling with the doctor, she gets him back.

720
00:51:01.679 --> 00:51:04.559
And so she gets to be part of an intact family at the end.

721
00:51:04.619 --> 00:51:24.239
And I want to imagine that they're together now, that that's fixed, that they've been through so much together in that year on the valiant, that, you know, they're broken and damaged in all sorts of ways and Martha has to leave in order to look after them, but I think the family's been, you know, fixed in some way.

722
00:51:24.300 --> 00:51:25.619
It's interesting.

723
00:51:25.679 --> 00:51:29.039
I don't necessarily see them getting back together.

724
00:51:29.099 --> 00:51:39.900
I think perhaps they now have an understanding and they get along and they work together with the family, but she's not going to go back to him based on how he's treated her and how what a husband he has been.

725
00:51:39.960 --> 00:51:45.960
So I don't actually necessarily see that, but I do think now that they don't argue and that they are more of a unit.

726
00:51:46.019 --> 00:51:59.159
Yeah, and more of a family and and certainly when Martha's mum comes back, you know, briefly in a year's time, when she says, oh, you came back to me, I still see that she's not with him at that time.

727
00:51:59.219 --> 00:52:01.260
And also spoiler alert.

728
00:52:01.320 --> 00:52:02.519
That's what happens in series four.

729
00:52:02.579 --> 00:52:08.519
The doctor heals that family in some ways by making Jackie aware of the way that she treats her daughter.

730
00:52:08.579 --> 00:52:09.960
Yeah, yeah.

731
00:52:14.579 --> 00:52:17.340
Oh, I get a Snuck Mary avoid.

732
00:52:17.400 --> 00:52:21.059
Okay, Brannigan, Lazloi the Pig Slave and Solomon.

733
00:52:21.119 --> 00:52:22.920
Oh, okay.

734
00:52:22.980 --> 00:52:24.900
So I'm allergic to cats.

735
00:52:26.159 --> 00:52:28.019
No, literally.

736
00:52:28.079 --> 00:52:33.119
So I have to avoid Branikin, even though he does seem sort of rather sweet and lovely.

737
00:52:33.179 --> 00:52:34.679
He's an old-fashioned cat.

738
00:52:34.739 --> 00:52:37.139
It's really great casting, isn't it?

739
00:52:37.199 --> 00:52:41.880
Because he's sort of very famous from Father Ted and he's sort of super likeable and silly.

740
00:52:41.880 --> 00:52:44.460
And, you know, he's wonderful.

741
00:52:44.820 --> 00:52:52.320
I think that, oh, see, it's quite a hard choice with Laszlo, the pig slave and Solomon.

742
00:52:52.380 --> 00:52:53.940
Because teeth.

743
00:52:54.000 --> 00:52:59.699
Yeah, the teeth could be a problem, but he is kind of handsome and in a sort of...

744
00:52:59.699 --> 00:53:00.599
That little tail, isn't it?

745
00:53:00.659 --> 00:53:01.619
The little tail.

746
00:53:01.679 --> 00:53:04.559
The little curled finger of the tail, beckoning you forth.

747
00:53:04.619 --> 00:53:11.940
Maybe maybe I'm not entirely certain that I could look at that across the dinner table for the rest of my life. an apple in his mouth.

748
00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:14.760
Maybe it's a quick snog with last life.

749
00:53:15.420 --> 00:53:19.199
But it's a quick snog with last slope.

750
00:53:20.099 --> 00:53:21.360
Bonus bacon and eggs every weekend.

751
00:53:21.420 --> 00:53:22.079
Yeah, yeah.

752
00:53:22.079 --> 00:53:25.920
And then I'd marry Solomon, obviously.

753
00:53:25.980 --> 00:53:28.800
Absolutely Have I had a Stog Mary avoid yet?

754
00:53:28.860 --> 00:53:29.579
No, it's your turn.

755
00:53:29.639 --> 00:53:31.440
No, I've just are we talking about today?

756
00:53:34.139 --> 00:53:36.300
A Mr. Fu Pang.

757
00:53:36.360 --> 00:53:37.739
Okay.

758
00:53:37.800 --> 00:53:38.460
Here we go.

759
00:53:38.519 --> 00:53:39.420
Snog marry avoid.

760
00:53:39.539 --> 00:53:42.960
Billy Shipton, John Smith, Lawrence Nightingale.

761
00:53:43.139 --> 00:53:49.199
Oh, there I only just got these Lauren Snyder. hilarious.

762
00:53:49.260 --> 00:53:50.880
I've never noticed that before either.

763
00:53:51.960 --> 00:53:54.300
I'm going to avoid John Smith.

764
00:53:54.420 --> 00:53:57.059
Yeah, Good choice. too angsty.

765
00:53:57.119 --> 00:54:04.559
I'm going to go out and Snorg, Lawrence Nightingale, and I'm going to marry Billy Shipton.

766
00:54:04.619 --> 00:54:05.760
Todd Shipton.

767
00:54:05.820 --> 00:54:07.019
Todd Shipton.

768
00:54:07.019 --> 00:54:11.400
Yes, I am Carrie Mulligan.

769
00:54:11.460 --> 00:54:14.039
Well, you know, Todd, life is short and he is hot.

770
00:54:14.099 --> 00:54:15.420
Yeah, he really is.

771
00:54:15.480 --> 00:54:16.920
All right.

772
00:54:16.980 --> 00:54:25.559
The final category out of the box. before our final wrap-up is favourite monster slash aliens.

773
00:54:25.739 --> 00:54:27.420
Francine.

774
00:54:28.380 --> 00:54:30.719
It's the only possible answer.

775
00:54:30.780 --> 00:54:35.340
I wonder if we could pick the Jadoon, to be honest.

776
00:54:35.400 --> 00:54:38.460
I was going to say, I think the Juna are a great addition.

777
00:54:38.579 --> 00:54:40.860
Obviously, the weeping angels, right?

778
00:54:40.920 --> 00:54:49.320
The Juduna is sort of the best of the Russell anthropomorphised foes. sort of just so recognisable and fun.

779
00:54:49.380 --> 00:55:02.699
They're so deliberately designed to be up there with, you know, Cyberman Ice Warriors and Santarans and stuff as a kind of iconic looking monster and they are properly funny and properly menacing.

780
00:55:02.760 --> 00:55:04.980
And I think they end up getting used to great effect later on.

781
00:55:05.039 --> 00:55:09.420
I think, you know, they're wonderful in the season finale of series four.

782
00:55:09.480 --> 00:55:12.300
I think they do a great job in the Sarah Jane adventures.

783
00:55:12.360 --> 00:55:18.300
You know, I think that they're proper monsters that you can imitate in the playground, absolutely classic.

784
00:55:18.360 --> 00:55:23.639
Annie Foos, like the Slovine and the Jadoon, which translate to the Sarah Jane adventures are automatically classic.

785
00:55:23.699 --> 00:55:24.659
I agree.

786
00:55:24.719 --> 00:55:27.059
So no love for the macra?

787
00:55:27.659 --> 00:55:29.880
There was no Mac, right?

788
00:55:29.940 --> 00:55:31.559
No such thing.

789
00:55:31.559 --> 00:55:35.820
You can just deal with them with sort of a one dose of cream you buy at the chemist and it's fine.

790
00:55:36.119 --> 00:55:40.920
Well, I just think it's a lot of effort to go to for a very small amount of meat.

791
00:55:40.980 --> 00:55:41.579
You know what I mean?

792
00:55:41.639 --> 00:55:42.480
Like I, you know.

793
00:55:43.920 --> 00:55:46.500
I'm not talking about Peter's bathing history.

794
00:55:47.579 --> 00:55:56.219
I think that they're brilliant, but I think that they work on a kind of metaphorical level rather than as real sort of proper monsters.

795
00:55:56.280 --> 00:55:57.599
So, no.

796
00:55:57.659 --> 00:56:00.539
We've got to go for the double act as well. son of mine and mother of mine.

797
00:56:00.599 --> 00:56:01.920
Yeah, fabulous.

798
00:56:01.980 --> 00:56:05.940
I think the scarecrows are effective, but I mean, did Jadune stick with you?

799
00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:07.500
Yeah, for me.

800
00:56:07.619 --> 00:56:09.119
And backneck series, apparently.

801
00:56:24.179 --> 00:56:31.019
So we're heading towards our final comments, wrap up for this season.

802
00:56:31.079 --> 00:56:35.280
So we're going to go with our Jenny Laird award nominations.

803
00:56:38.340 --> 00:56:39.780
Well, I'm going to start.

804
00:56:39.900 --> 00:56:41.099
I nominate the Dobby Doctor.

805
00:56:41.159 --> 00:56:43.980
Oh, because I can't stand it.

806
00:56:44.039 --> 00:56:45.239
That's Peter's date.

807
00:56:45.239 --> 00:56:50.880
I know, we could have made sweet love together in that little cage.

808
00:56:50.940 --> 00:56:53.940
Oh, it's just Tweety Bird and Sylvester, isn't it, really?

809
00:56:55.019 --> 00:57:09.360
That hilarious moment, my absolute sort of just about one of my favourite moments in Last of the Time Lords, where John Sim sneaks in in his dressing gown, you know, on his tiptoes, with his arms, sort of in the air, towards the thing.

810
00:57:09.420 --> 00:57:11.340
He's really funny. joyous.

811
00:57:11.400 --> 00:57:13.139
And it's the rest of the cat again.

812
00:57:13.199 --> 00:57:13.980
Yeah, it is.

813
00:57:14.039 --> 00:57:16.380
I think the Dobby doctor.

814
00:57:16.440 --> 00:57:22.980
I'm going to choose something related to the Dobby Doctor, and that is the use of ageing makeup in this series.

815
00:57:23.039 --> 00:57:33.360
We've said before, it's the BBC foam machine of series three. quite literally foam and it never, ever really works.

816
00:57:33.480 --> 00:57:35.219
And it's used a bunch of times.

817
00:57:35.280 --> 00:57:38.579
It's not just in, you know, Last of the Time Lords.

818
00:57:38.639 --> 00:57:41.340
And it's just not very good.

819
00:57:41.400 --> 00:57:45.420
We'll see more of it in tortured next year to similar effect.

820
00:57:45.480 --> 00:57:50.340
And, you know, I guess it's all right, but it is not very good.

821
00:57:50.400 --> 00:57:55.019
I think I'd give my Jenny Led Award to the entire episode of 42.

822
00:57:55.619 --> 00:57:59.099
Just because no one seems to be trying that hard.

823
00:57:59.159 --> 00:58:01.260
The script is awkward.

824
00:58:01.320 --> 00:58:06.840
The casting's a little bit off, and I mean, Graham Harper's at the helm, and it's maybe the one time that he isn't able to save something.

825
00:58:07.440 --> 00:58:11.519
Yeah, it feels like no one really got it rice on that episode.

826
00:58:13.019 --> 00:58:15.300
Now, I've just nominated.

827
00:58:15.360 --> 00:58:17.400
I haven't actually, I'm nominating other things.

828
00:58:17.460 --> 00:58:18.539
Oh, really?

829
00:58:18.539 --> 00:58:21.119
I'm nominating the half human Dalek, the look of it.

830
00:58:21.179 --> 00:58:23.280
I don't think that works, Mr. Diagonal.

831
00:58:24.000 --> 00:58:27.780
I'm nominating the fact that Martha has to be in love with the doctor.

832
00:58:27.840 --> 00:58:30.719
I don't think that has some positives.

833
00:58:30.780 --> 00:58:36.300
It also has some real negative towards her character and bogging that down.

834
00:58:36.360 --> 00:58:38.159
So it's in my nominations.

835
00:58:38.519 --> 00:58:46.199
I don't think Martha's arc would have worked or Martha as a character would have worked if she didn't feel like that towards him. essentially who she is.

836
00:58:46.260 --> 00:58:52.199
She is going to fall for, you could actually say, she's not even the father she didn't have.

837
00:58:52.260 --> 00:58:57.480
He's the father and the mother because she's getting a bit Freudie, but she sees herself in the doctor.

838
00:58:57.539 --> 00:59:07.079
So there's the arc and bridge to self-love is searching for that acknowledgement of her own confidence, which the doctor represents.

839
00:59:07.199 --> 00:59:19.739
So for Martha to fall unrequitedly towards the doctor is a perfect fit because he is, if you like, what she would see herself as if she was fully functional and happy and self-loving.

840
00:59:19.800 --> 00:59:24.840
So the fact that he then doesn't recognise her is a perfect fit for where she is right now.

841
00:59:24.900 --> 00:59:34.260
And at the end of the season when she realises I actually can love myself and I do have confidence in my abilities and I've just saved that goddamn world, the whole bloody lot of you.

842
00:59:34.320 --> 00:59:36.840
I don't give a stuff what you think about me anymore.

843
00:59:36.900 --> 00:59:37.500
It's perfect.

844
00:59:37.559 --> 00:59:41.400
That is that is a wonderful, wonderful moment.

845
00:59:41.579 --> 00:59:45.119
Maybe it's the execution in certain episodes and how it's written.

846
00:59:45.119 --> 00:59:51.539
It feels uncomfortable because it is uncomfortable and it's something most of us go through if we're aware, self-aware.

847
00:59:51.599 --> 00:59:53.699
We know that arc that she goes to.

848
00:59:53.760 --> 00:59:54.599
It's painful.

849
00:59:55.079 --> 00:59:58.500
Do you have any Jenny Laird nominations at all?

850
00:59:58.559 --> 00:59:59.699
I think you've covered them all.

851
00:59:59.760 --> 01:00:01.619
I mean, the things that I don't like.

852
01:00:01.679 --> 01:00:05.099
I can then look at and go, oh, there's a reason for them all the time.

853
01:00:05.159 --> 01:00:06.960
And it's a good season.

854
01:00:07.019 --> 01:00:10.500
It's hard to pick Jenny Laird awards, you know, when there's no Jenny Lance.

855
01:00:10.559 --> 01:00:12.360
And it's all done consciously.

856
01:00:12.420 --> 01:00:23.400
Like Doctor Who, in this era, I think very rarely fails because it, because of some kind of incompetence, you know, it fails because it rubs up against people's expectations, I think, a lot.

857
01:00:23.460 --> 01:00:26.400
But, you know, they know what they're doing, I think.

858
01:00:26.460 --> 01:00:37.559
And you don't really have people come in and deliver awkward performances like you did during the classic series, you know, for reasons of, you know, time and rehearsals and things like that.

859
01:00:37.619 --> 01:00:39.840
It's just an altogether tighter operation.

860
01:00:39.960 --> 01:00:48.059
Also, the Doctor Who was just seen as something that kids wanted you to do, and it was popular, but it was just a job back in the day.

861
01:00:48.119 --> 01:00:54.179
Which means that when in the new series, you do eventually start getting performances where you think, what are you doing?

862
01:00:54.179 --> 01:00:56.219
And we'll get one next year when we come to that.

863
01:00:56.280 --> 01:00:57.659
You think, okay, Jenny Letterwood.

864
01:00:58.679 --> 01:01:16.079
My actual award goes to the kiss perpetrated by Francine's husband on Francine in the final episode of October, where it looks like he is a mama bird about to vomit in the mouth on a baby bird, that for me, the Roger Morton.

865
01:01:16.920 --> 01:01:19.380
I'm sorry, that's how I see it.

866
01:01:19.440 --> 01:01:21.599
It's the genuine board for me with the season.

867
01:01:21.659 --> 01:01:25.860
I just sit there going, Tony Curtis and Joan Collins.

868
01:01:27.539 --> 01:01:29.699
For our loyal listeners.

869
01:01:30.000 --> 01:01:41.340
I think you've touched on the fact, Nathan and Peter, that in the new series, giving out Jenny Lead Awards is difficult because it's entirely different production and television is so different.

870
01:01:41.400 --> 01:01:45.599
We're not going to get those absolutely dire performances slash special effects.

871
01:01:45.719 --> 01:01:48.960
So trying to find something, it's really nitpicky.

872
01:01:49.019 --> 01:01:50.519
I just forgot to do it really.

873
01:01:52.079 --> 01:01:57.119
So I thought we would have like the anti-Jenny Lead Award.

874
01:01:57.179 --> 01:02:01.619
For something in the series that could be your startling discovery, it could be your most joyous moment.

875
01:02:01.679 --> 01:02:05.099
And so, um, these catch your name.

876
01:02:05.159 --> 01:02:08.340
So we're giving out the Bonnie Langford.

877
01:02:10.559 --> 01:02:13.860
It's not the Bonnie Langford Award. the Bonnie Langford?

878
01:02:13.920 --> 01:02:14.940
No, absolutely.

879
01:02:15.000 --> 01:02:18.719
She is much, much better than nearly everyone thinks.

880
01:02:18.840 --> 01:02:22.199
And she gives 155% in everything.

881
01:02:22.260 --> 01:02:26.219
So I'm after that moment for you. seeing Brendan in a wig.

882
01:02:29.400 --> 01:02:33.239
I'm after that moment. and you've already mentioned George.

883
01:02:33.300 --> 01:02:33.900
I think so.

884
01:02:33.960 --> 01:02:37.800
I think it is that moment, the old rugged cross in gridlock.

885
01:02:37.860 --> 01:02:40.320
I think it's super interesting.

886
01:02:40.380 --> 01:02:41.820
The plot hinges on it.

887
01:02:41.880 --> 01:02:47.280
Like both Martha and the doctor express their different takes on what's going on.

888
01:02:47.340 --> 01:02:49.559
It propels the doctor into action.

889
01:02:49.619 --> 01:02:54.900
It shows a group of human beings trapped, but still forming a community.

890
01:02:54.960 --> 01:02:56.579
It expresses hope.

891
01:02:56.639 --> 01:03:05.340
And I just also just feel that kind of loss of a kind of, that kind of certainty, that religion gives people.

892
01:03:05.400 --> 01:03:11.760
And so for me, it is just one of the most affecting scenes in Doctor Who in that era.

893
01:03:11.820 --> 01:03:13.800
And so it gets my Bonnie Langford.

894
01:03:13.860 --> 01:03:14.400
Okay.

895
01:03:14.460 --> 01:03:15.179
Richard?

896
01:03:15.239 --> 01:03:18.119
Oh, Nicola McCauliff as Vivian Rooke.

897
01:03:18.179 --> 01:03:19.380
Oh yes.

898
01:03:22.139 --> 01:03:28.920
Because if you remember Graham Garden of the Goodies and, you know, creator of some of my favourite radio series of all time.

899
01:03:28.980 --> 01:03:31.440
Like, I'm sorry, I haven't a clue, the unbelievable truth.

900
01:03:31.500 --> 01:03:41.940
Everything he touches is gold rotor series called Surgical Spirit back in the 90s, where she played the lead and the very caustic, I suppose Penelope Keith with a higher education.

901
01:03:42.000 --> 01:03:47.280
She played the chief of surgeons and she's just fabulous in everything she touches.

902
01:03:47.400 --> 01:03:49.739
She's titanium level.

903
01:03:49.800 --> 01:03:51.780
Platinum, forget gold.

904
01:03:51.780 --> 01:03:52.980
And she's wonderful in this.

905
01:03:53.039 --> 01:03:57.599
She's our moral compass of truth, and she's actually what's gone wrong with British politics.

906
01:03:57.659 --> 01:04:01.079
She's there to say, it's all gone wrong because Saxon is Blair.

907
01:04:01.139 --> 01:04:01.800
Yeah.

908
01:04:01.860 --> 01:04:08.639
And Vivian Rook is our expectations made manifest, and then Flesh, and then mints.

909
01:04:08.880 --> 01:04:13.079
She's an absolute joy to watch and then mints.

910
01:04:14.400 --> 01:04:23.099
Thank you for that I would have liked a whole season with her as the reporter going around chasing the history of sex and behind the scenes.

911
01:04:23.159 --> 01:04:25.380
I could have actually done with her and not John Barriman.

912
01:04:25.440 --> 01:04:26.880
Sorry, sorry, John.

913
01:04:26.940 --> 01:04:28.739
I only like John Barriman in Doc Two.

914
01:04:28.800 --> 01:04:31.260
Don't like him in Torchwood, but he's lovely in dog.

915
01:04:31.320 --> 01:04:34.320
We haven't even mentioned him once, this episode, this for a reason.

916
01:04:34.380 --> 01:04:37.199
Can we have some love for his when he's running through the bay?

917
01:04:37.260 --> 01:04:38.820
Dog, dog.

918
01:04:39.599 --> 01:04:42.539
I really like his relationship with Martha.

919
01:04:42.599 --> 01:04:43.559
It's delightful.

920
01:04:43.619 --> 01:04:44.340
It's really lovely.

921
01:04:44.460 --> 01:04:47.639
Yeah, he could have stayed for most of the season. would have just would have been lovely.

922
01:04:48.059 --> 01:04:49.500
Peter.

923
01:04:49.739 --> 01:04:56.039
My Bonnie Langford will go to one of the MVPs of the season, which is director Charles Palmer.

924
01:04:56.159 --> 01:04:56.820
Ooh.

925
01:04:56.820 --> 01:04:57.659
He comes in.

926
01:04:57.719 --> 01:04:59.639
He's a freshman and he does 4 episodes.

927
01:04:59.699 --> 01:05:04.860
Smith and Jones, Shakespeare code, and the 2 human nature episodes, all of which are expertly done.

928
01:05:04.920 --> 01:05:07.860
And he's got links to the Doctor Who family.

929
01:05:07.920 --> 01:05:15.599
So, of course, his father, we all love Adore, Jeffrey, and he's married to Claire Skinner from Outnumbered, who was in the Doctor, the Widow in the Wardrobe.

930
01:05:15.719 --> 01:05:16.260
Oh.

931
01:05:16.260 --> 01:05:27.119
Every episode he does is amazing, but especially the human nature 2 part, a lot of it shot in quite an old-fashioned way, a lot of sort of in-camera effects and practical effects, and it looks superb for it.

932
01:05:27.179 --> 01:05:30.300
And then he goes away and you think, oh, okay, well, he's 4 and done.

933
01:05:30.360 --> 01:05:33.000
He was amazing and he comes back and he gives us oxygen in Series 10.

934
01:05:33.179 --> 01:05:35.400
You think, well, thank you very much, Charles Palmer.

935
01:05:37.199 --> 01:05:41.880
I've got 2 moments for this award.

936
01:05:41.940 --> 01:05:49.260
My 1st is when Captain Jack announces that he was the face of Bo.

937
01:05:49.320 --> 01:05:53.579
Yeah, Murray Gold comes in and gives us the face of Beau theme.

938
01:05:53.639 --> 01:05:55.440
He clearly thinks it's true as well.

939
01:05:55.500 --> 01:06:01.739
Like, it's a scene where you can read it one way or the other, depending on the reactions of the doctor, and is Jack just playing with us?

940
01:06:01.800 --> 01:06:07.380
And there's not a conclusive, you know, you can take it that he is or not.

941
01:06:07.440 --> 01:06:24.659
And normally you, well, everybody here knows me, that I like things black and white, but for the one time in the history of the show, Like it's just so outrageous, but it's, it never ceases to make me smile and laugh and go, it is what it is, and I don't care whether it's one way or the other.

942
01:06:24.719 --> 01:06:25.980
I just love it.

943
01:06:26.039 --> 01:06:32.760
Like, you know, I just, the fact that Russell threw that in. and you're not expecting it and the reaction.

944
01:06:32.820 --> 01:06:35.639
I think Freeman's reaction just sells it.

945
01:06:35.699 --> 01:06:54.119
And speaking of Freeman, the other moment is when she walks back into the Tartars, to finally say to the doctor, I'm going, this is why, and no other companion, he knew who has been given that opportunity to leave on their own terms. sense of self-completion.

946
01:06:54.179 --> 01:06:56.820
And that's why she shines in this series.

947
01:06:56.820 --> 01:06:58.679
I don't underrated leaving scene.

948
01:06:58.739 --> 01:06:59.579
It's wonderful.

949
01:06:59.699 --> 01:07:01.019
Well, it hurts.

950
01:07:01.079 --> 01:07:02.159
That's why people don't go back.

951
01:07:02.579 --> 01:07:04.019
All right.

952
01:07:04.079 --> 01:07:06.840
Well, we're at the end of our retrospective.

953
01:07:06.900 --> 01:07:09.840
I always throw out the question for the next series.

954
01:07:09.900 --> 01:07:12.360
Where are you sitting with it at the moment?

955
01:07:12.420 --> 01:07:16.440
Is there any sort of thing that you'll be looking at when you go in to watch it?

956
01:07:16.500 --> 01:07:19.679
You know, for me, for series 4?

957
01:07:19.800 --> 01:07:24.960
It always seems to be the combination of RTD's work and it always sits above everything else.

958
01:07:25.019 --> 01:07:26.159
Will that still hold?

959
01:07:26.460 --> 01:07:28.199
I'm not sure.

960
01:07:28.260 --> 01:07:36.300
And the other overriding aspect is that I thought the 3 episodes with Martha were weaker than everything else in the season.

961
01:07:36.360 --> 01:07:40.679
And now that I've had a complete new appreciation of Freema.

962
01:07:40.739 --> 01:07:44.280
Is that going to change my opinion when I get to that run of episodes?

963
01:07:44.760 --> 01:08:04.139
I've said, I think, that each season gets better than the last one, but something that Richard said gave me pause a bit because I don't think the specials are better than series 4 and I think that it is because Russell lets himself kind of, I'm not quite sure what it is. don't really want to play. when we get there.

964
01:08:04.199 --> 01:08:16.199
Yeah, but there are 2 episodes in the series 4 that are as bleak as anything that Russell's written for Doctor Who, and that's midnight and turn left.

965
01:08:16.260 --> 01:08:22.199
And I like Russell being bleak, but I don't know.

966
01:08:22.260 --> 01:08:25.560
I've had a lot of Russell being bleak lately with years and years.

967
01:08:25.619 --> 01:08:27.119
So you don't know if it's right for Doctor Who?

968
01:08:27.239 --> 01:08:38.579
Well, I like him to push it a little bit, but let's see, you know, like I am, I'll be interested to see what I think of it, but I am kind of excited and Jackie King.

969
01:08:39.479 --> 01:08:49.439
He does, I was going to say, on Nathan's point there, there is the bleakness of those 2 episodes, but that's followed by the absolute joyousness of that final 2 parter.

970
01:08:49.500 --> 01:08:51.239
So it definitely all gets pulled back.

971
01:08:51.479 --> 01:08:53.699
It's interesting, isn't it?

972
01:08:53.760 --> 01:09:17.939
Thinking back to our expectations, I remember feeling bittersweet at the end of this season with the handling of Martha and the performance, and I've really only come to the understanding we have now, now, has it taken this long, even though I've watched it several times, we watch it for the little joyous moments, and then we see the arc, of course, only in hindsight, how else could you?

973
01:09:18.119 --> 01:09:21.119
The anticipation for season four.

974
01:09:21.180 --> 01:09:24.899
I really wasn't comfortable with the casting of Catherine Tade at the time.

975
01:09:24.960 --> 01:09:26.819
I thought it would be shticky.

976
01:09:26.880 --> 01:09:35.880
I thought, I know that Russell has many theatrical turns, if you like, that he adores, and one of them is Blackpool Pier.

977
01:09:35.939 --> 01:09:50.939
One of them is slapstick and sideshow, and I thought this is just going to be a love fest with tenant and Catherine Tate telling each other they're geniuses, as they do when they're, when they do their little chats and interviews, and at the time, on BBC radio and TV, there was a whole lot of them just say, oh, I love you.

978
01:09:51.000 --> 01:09:52.020
Oh no, I love you more.

979
01:09:52.079 --> 01:09:52.619
I love you.

980
01:09:52.680 --> 01:09:55.260
I cannot do a whole season of this.

981
01:09:55.319 --> 01:09:57.420
So that's how I felt going into it.

982
01:09:57.479 --> 01:10:01.859
But I feel that I may be, I may be up for some surprises.

983
01:10:01.920 --> 01:10:02.640
Good.

984
01:10:02.699 --> 01:10:03.659
Peter.

985
01:10:03.720 --> 01:10:16.380
I think, I mean, I'm willing to change my mind if I come to it and find differently, but I think series 4 is the best series of New Doc 2 since it came back.

986
01:10:16.439 --> 01:10:18.899
I mean, it feels like everyone's at the height of their powers.

987
01:10:18.960 --> 01:10:24.779
I mean, they were so confident that they just rolled on in and sort of shot episode 3 and episode 7 1st up.

988
01:10:24.840 --> 01:10:37.020
You know, there was no sense of we're having to start and then continue and then and it was just business as usual and everyone's firing on all cylinders and then you just add Catherine Tate into the mix and Shorefire winner.

989
01:10:37.079 --> 01:10:38.880
You think it might end up being quite good.

990
01:10:38.939 --> 01:10:40.439
Is that where you think it'll go?

991
01:10:40.500 --> 01:10:41.520
I think so.

992
01:10:41.579 --> 01:10:46.020
And I think there's very few dead episodes and one spectacularly dead episode, which is great.

993
01:11:16.079 --> 01:11:21.840
Well, listen, that's all we have time for this weekend for this series of Doctor Who.

994
01:11:21.899 --> 01:11:26.819
We'll be back at Christmas to join Kylie for a commentary podcast on Voyage of the Damned.

995
01:11:26.880 --> 01:11:42.600
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us at Flights or Entirety on Facebook, at FTE Podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, and Jody Interterra.

996
01:11:42.659 --> 01:11:50.579
Until next time, may you all learn a valuable lesson about not voting for barely competent supervillains in major elections.

997
01:11:50.640 --> 01:11:53.699
I'm talking to you, English speaking world.

998
01:11:53.760 --> 01:11:56.399
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

999
01:11:56.460 --> 01:11:57.300
Good night.

1000
01:11:57.359 --> 01:11:58.260
See you soon.

1001
01:11:58.319 --> 01:11:58.800
Good then.

1002
01:12:00.479 --> 01:12:06.359
That was Flight for Entirety, starring Todd Bilby, Nathan Monterley, Peter Griffiths, and Richard Stone.

1003
01:12:06.420 --> 01:12:10.199
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, strings performance by Jane Orberg.

1004
01:12:10.260 --> 01:12:16.979
This episode, Subtlety and Undertones, was recorded on the 13th of October 2019 and released on the 15th of December.

1005
01:12:20.100 --> 01:12:28.680
We'd like to thank all the people who joined us this series, Pete Lambert, Conrad Westmas, Eric Stadnick, Colin Neil, Simon Moore, Liz Miles, and Adam Richard.

1006
01:12:28.739 --> 01:12:34.140
We'll be back again at Christmas and for series 4 in 2020, or perhaps even sooner than that.

1007
01:12:34.739 --> 01:12:38.640
Do you want to cheat and give Peter a snug Mario void?

1008
01:12:38.699 --> 01:12:39.720
Because we're gonna chop it up.

1009
01:12:39.779 --> 01:12:42.359
It doesn't matter if he does 2 consecutive questions.

1010
01:12:42.420 --> 01:12:43.380
But I'm with you.

1011
01:12:43.439 --> 01:12:45.000
Why do I have to have a snog?

1012
01:12:45.000 --> 01:12:45.300
I have to.

1013
01:12:45.359 --> 01:12:47.399
It's part of a...

1014
01:12:47.399 --> 01:12:51.720
It's part of the ritual... ritual.

1015
01:12:51.779 --> 01:12:53.100
Can I do them all?

1016
01:12:53.100 --> 01:12:55.140
Like, I can, like I do on Grindr.

1017
01:12:55.199 --> 01:12:57.899
Snold them, talk about marrying them and avoid them.

1018
01:12:57.960 --> 01:13:00.000
Oh, Peter. picking one for you.

1019
01:13:00.060 --> 01:13:01.920
Wait a second, wait a second. blow your load too soon.

1020
01:13:01.979 --> 01:13:04.500
Let's do that so that I can do it go into it with a clear thing.

1021
01:13:04.560 --> 01:13:06.239
Oh, Peter, I'm picking one for you.

1022
01:13:06.300 --> 01:13:08.520
Thank you very much, Todd.

1023
01:13:08.579 --> 01:13:10.260
It's like when we go out on a Friday night.

1024
01:13:12.600 --> 01:13:15.000
What was that about boomtish?

1025
01:13:15.119 --> 01:13:18.300
That's what Martha's sister calls herself behind closed doors.

1026
01:13:19.500 --> 01:13:25.920
Sandog marry avoid, the Dobby doctor, Professor Lazarus, a half human Dalek.