WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 13:03:41

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Hello and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety.

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The only Doctor Who podcast you can't kill because we're all

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geniuses.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm not.

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And we had a special guest for this episode of the podcast.

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Rod, my partner, whose comments have often made into the podcast

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is actually sitting here in the room, but he's just flicking these

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and I don't think he's going to say anything unless he wants to

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touch at some point be for victory today.

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And he's also made us some lovely, lovely croton head apple pies.

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Delicious. which we've already devoured half of.

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So without any further ado.

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We'll go to the founder of that particular beast with the

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crotons.

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Yeah, yeah, it's a macro chair.

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Oh, sorry, no, it's face of evil, no, it's a mysterious planet.

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No, it's what is it again?

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It's the crotons and it's the 1st script by Robert Holmes.

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And also the 1st TV appearance of Sir Philip Maddock.

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As Elek.

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We already owned him though, didn't we?

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Because he's playing Dr. David Keel in an exciting adventure with

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the Daleks and he would turncoat, Smiley's people thing in a, you

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know, white Mac, isn't he?

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His fingers Alex.

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Broccoli.

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Naughty films.

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Yes. as cubby broccoli.

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That's right.

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That's right. be broccoli.

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Don't eat your broccoli.

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That's right.

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Um, So the protons...

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And by the way, the best thing in that film.

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Other than Eileen Moy.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Thank you.

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And he's got to be one of the best things in this, I think.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I mean, the coats, though, that's not stretching it, is it?

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too far?

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You can be mean about this story.

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I know this one doesn't have a great reputation.

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But you've got to sort of consider the factors around it.

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It was commissioned to replace a script that fell through, namely

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the prison in space.

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Yeah, you know, that one was remade by the big finish.

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Yeah, and what's the big finish one like?

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The big finish one just doesn't pull any punches.

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It doesn't attempt to modernise it.

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It's still as ridiculously cancer.

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The prisoning space, whatever it was.

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Is that about space age suffragettes where Zoe is stridently

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feminist and get this?

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Jamie has to beat it out of her with smacks until she wakes up

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from the spell of trying to...

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What the hell?

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It's the wormer turned from...

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Yeah, it's male something.

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It is too Bar castle.

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And Joanna Dawes as the chief controller.

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But this wasn't a comedy?

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Was it a comedy?

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It was a comedy.

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It wasn't a comedy.

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Did anyone laugh?

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No.

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Not on the BBC off.

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Well, cancel it.

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Not in the BBC office.

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This is how the crotons came about.

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Nathan and I were actually at a convention yesterday.

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Well, the times three, which had Terrence Hicks.

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I was in a march to try and stop 6 lane highways going through

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this very suburb.

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Yeah, so he was doing the bit.

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You might think the environment's important because we had adopted

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the convention.

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And as Terrence said, what happened was he was the junior

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assistant undercredited script editor at the time and he worked

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jolly hard on it too.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And what happened was he had found this script by Bob Holmes, which

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had originally been sent in for William Hart, Jackie Lane, Peter

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Purpose.

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That's right.

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It was a script, as the space trap, and had just been sort of

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shoved down the back of the filing cabinet.

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And anyway, he said to Sherwin and Bryant, look, you know, I'd

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really like to develop this. to which Sherman and Brian said, oh

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no, no, we've got a full slate.

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We can't possibly have any other stories.

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And Terence said, well, how about I develop it as a backup?

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And they're like, fine, but you've got to do all your other work

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as well.

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So he worked with Robert Holmes and developed it.

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David Maloney, the director, got the scripts for the prison in

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space, read them, and pretty much said to Sherman Bryant, I can't

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make this.

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It's terrible.

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And so panic stations and Terence sort of walks in like James Bond

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says, actually, I have a script just here.

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And David Maloney goes, this is a perfectly acceptable adventure.

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Sorry let's do this.

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It's much more political in the 1st draft, isn't it?

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It's the space track.

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It's much more about student uprising and rebellion, which you get

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a little bit of still in the final show.

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Should we talk about what this is actually about if there's

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possibly anyone who's never seen it?

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Absolutely.

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So you have this spaceship which crashed years and years and years

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ago, 1568 something years ago.

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I think it was 67.

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No, you can actually work that out.

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Just have a look in the military somewhere.

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I'll explain that.

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Um, The humanoid life forms living there.

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Around this site.

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Around this site, then sort of develop their town around this site

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and just pension off for terrible togas.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Well, we, you know, we all go through that phase.

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It was a bit like the 80s perm.

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I know I went through mine.

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Just think that had some sort of alien, incursive, reducting

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intelligent quality to making us do shell suits in 1989.

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There's nothing intelligent about...

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We'll get to the seats of death next.

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What these aliens do is they need hybrine. hy brain.

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So there were four.

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There were 4 of these things flying the ship and 2 were killed in

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their wall with the dominatrixes and fighting.

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Actually, that's a wonder.

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It would make more sense actually, wouldn't it?

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Because it would be the rutens.

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Um, the root and they, and what's nice about this is they live in

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this sort of soup, this slurry of 7-Eleven slurpee stuff until

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until you add the right sort of energy to them and then they form

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a body.

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There was a nice thing in the notes.

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I found that form you see because, okay, it's a budget thing, but

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it's nice.

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The form you see when they're on this planet, which seems to have

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a much, um, yes, to be a higher gravity.

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That's higher gravity.

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Yeah, because they're buildings that they make the people build

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the doctor comics when he steps out of the Tartar.

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So they look like they're from a much lower gravity.

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Because there's funny little squat, zigarettes.

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So it kind of makes sense.

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And they also have sort of trouble with their arms and attaching

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things to them because they're built exactly like the B-line robot

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from lost in space, but with nice zarovsky crystal cut edges to

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them.

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But they um...

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But yeah, this is this squat invasion form.

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And I like to think that in their natural, in a more natural

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state.

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They're a castrians.

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Because the crystamine, of course, it's Eldra.

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Eldra's people.

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And how beautiful if we'd actually had the bit of money and

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foresight.

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Because the thing that lets this down is not really the base story

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which everyone thought was interesting enough, you know, to use

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and invest time in.

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And I don't think it holds up.

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It's odd.

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It's not bad and it's not fantastically good.

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It's just surprisingly not what you expect to be watching at this

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time.

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I think this season sort of goes out of its way to vary itself and

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perhaps in reaction to season five.

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So each story in season 6 is sort of quite distinct.

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But in fact, what I find surprising is how much it has in common

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with the dominators.

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So we're on a planet's realised with a quarry, which was new and

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exciting in the savages, but is now a sort of hoary old trope

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beside this point.

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As one put it at the time, another bleeping humanoid race in

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another bleeping quarry.

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Yeah, well, I mean, that's Leap himself, does he?

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I'll solve this.

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It's 3 PG.

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And, you know, like the like the people on the whatever planet, the

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dominate, oh, Dunkus.

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There you go.

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No, no, on the planet Dolcus.

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They're sort of terribly wet and here on the planet of the Gonds.

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They're sort of very wet. 2 aliens in a spaceship take over the

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entire planet, you know.

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Chin Chin Chin.

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But more importantly, the big difference is that there's a

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generational political problem.

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So with the Dolphins, all of the old people are pacifists and

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you've got Kali who wants to fight things.

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Here, you've got a group of students who are being fed information

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by the sort of mysterious machines that they don't sort of

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understand.

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And, you know, they're rebelling against that.

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So what we have here.

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It's like the dominators only.

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It's kind of on the right side of history, in a sense.

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The sympathy of dominators we observed was with, you know, the

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people prosecuting the Vietnam War, you know, it was an anti-anti

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war story.

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Because the students, you know, we just talked about the invasion

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of Czechoslovakia, and we've talked about the, the tanks in Prague

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and we've talked about the kids in Paris, learning down the

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universities, and but also the stuff that was happening on TV.

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You know that also at this time, Harold Wilson later claimed to

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have you some greatest triumph as prime minister in the UK was the

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opening university program.

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So that through television and radio, you could enrol in remotely

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through university and learn or speed learn.

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But it was also the red brick uni thing of a different style, which

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I think has gone out of schools, but we certainly went through it

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in the 70s and 80s.

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And it's just info dumping of facts that you purge out again at

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the end of the year in an essay, that you'll never use a goon.

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I've got something like over 95% for migration war, crashing

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Thracian war essay when I have to do that in year 11 because I

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don't, I mean, that's the kind of thing that just really appeals

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to Doctor Who phones.

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But for the rest of the world, it must have been miserable.

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If you don't have a fanboy head to exams like that.

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And so both of those, like both stories have students in them

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don't they?

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Remember, it's a group of students going to the museum on Dolcas

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and the island of death.

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And there's that terrible young female student who just recites

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all these fags with a candour without understanding them.

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And now here we have, she gets steam punched, doesn't she?

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She goes through the doors. gets nozzled.

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Well, they're being forced to in facts and so they smash the place

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up.

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Yeah, I mean, this is absolutely the anti-dominated.

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If Innasloyd commissioned the dominators going, oh, what a

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wonderful idea.

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Let's show these passivists who what the world is really like.

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This is direct, everyone's saying, actually, no, you can be anti

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violence, but still fight for your freedom and fight for what you

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believe in.

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And what I find very interesting about this is, you know, at a

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time where we've just come out of the year where the Doctor Who

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Monsters are the monsters.

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And they exist purely to get you.

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All the crotons want is to be able to take off again.

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They're not inherently evil.

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You know, certainly their methods are... that kind of thing

254
00:10:58.019 --> 00:11:02.460
invasive Western culture heal a bunch of people.

255
00:11:02.519 --> 00:11:03.419
They do call a bunch of people.

256
00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:07.379
They don't kill a bunch of people just to kill a bunch of people.

257
00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:10.620
Unlike the Doctor Who monsters of last season.

258
00:11:10.679 --> 00:11:13.379
Or the dominators who do it just because they're really grumpy or

259
00:11:13.379 --> 00:11:15.720
they've just had a marital tiff in each other.

260
00:11:15.779 --> 00:11:16.500
Exactly, exactly.

261
00:11:16.559 --> 00:11:22.860
And also you've got these student characters. who, you know, they

262
00:11:22.860 --> 00:11:25.860
want to smash up the hall, but none of them try to smash off the

263
00:11:25.860 --> 00:11:27.539
croton who comes out.

264
00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:29.159
Like the Croton just zaps them and they go.

265
00:11:29.220 --> 00:11:33.659
So at the same time, they're not an inherently violent force, but

266
00:11:33.659 --> 00:11:35.759
they become violent to fight for their freedom.

267
00:11:35.820 --> 00:11:39.899
And eventually their solution is found, not in brute force, the

268
00:11:39.899 --> 00:11:43.200
way it is in the dominators, and certainly not, but doctor going

269
00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:45.779
bugger it, I'll do it myself, as in the dominators.

270
00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:48.659
But the doctor kind of goes, this is the knowledge you need to get

271
00:11:48.659 --> 00:11:49.200
rid of them.

272
00:11:49.259 --> 00:11:51.120
This is the knowledge that was never given to you.

273
00:11:51.179 --> 00:11:52.259
Now you do something with that.

274
00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:55.320
I think it would have been a lot more powerful as a Billy story.

275
00:11:55.440 --> 00:11:58.500
Can you imagine fluffing billious, Timothy Leary, because they're

276
00:11:58.500 --> 00:11:59.700
using acid to destroy...

277
00:11:59.700 --> 00:12:02.100
Girl dropping acid to destroy the status quo.

278
00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:03.480
It's all about the foundation.

279
00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:06.240
There is a lot, though, isn't there?

280
00:12:06.299 --> 00:12:08.039
You know, that was a mood of the time.

281
00:12:08.100 --> 00:12:10.200
I think this would have been a really good Billy story.

282
00:12:10.259 --> 00:12:12.720
Now, I think it has a lot in common with the space music.

283
00:12:12.779 --> 00:12:13.440
Yeah, yeah.

284
00:12:13.620 --> 00:12:15.240
But it's a more active doctor.

285
00:12:15.299 --> 00:12:18.000
Yeah, with young people, you know, trying.

286
00:12:18.059 --> 00:12:21.059
And they were trying to get him to be a mod to every, you know

287
00:12:21.059 --> 00:12:22.559
which Modro dad, yeah.

288
00:12:22.620 --> 00:12:25.200
Something else that really comes to the fore here that he would

289
00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:27.659
become famous for is Robert Holmes's characterisation.

290
00:12:27.720 --> 00:12:30.480
Yeah, it's the characters that save this, isn't it?

291
00:12:30.539 --> 00:12:31.200
Yeah, absolutely.

292
00:12:31.259 --> 00:12:33.899
So we've already mentioned Philip Maddock.

293
00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:36.419
We've already mentioned Philip Maticus ELEC.

294
00:12:36.539 --> 00:12:41.879
We've got James Kane Crossback, yeah, duck facing James Kane Cross

295
00:12:41.879 --> 00:12:45.539
is back for above Reign of Terror, where he played Le Maitre.

296
00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:46.799
He's now playing Bieta.

297
00:12:46.860 --> 00:12:48.720
Beta, Beta.

298
00:12:48.779 --> 00:12:49.620
Beta.

299
00:12:49.620 --> 00:12:50.039
Beta.

300
00:12:50.100 --> 00:12:53.940
I know his sidebones and the pronunciation change between scenes.

301
00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:55.799
There's a lot of that that's happening in this.

302
00:12:55.860 --> 00:12:58.500
Yeah, because there was a big 6 week breakoff, wasn't there, a 5

303
00:12:58.500 --> 00:13:01.919
week break between Patty running from one thing to ending up in

304
00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:04.559
the learning hall and he suddenly got swapping these massive

305
00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:08.340
muttons on the side. and we'll have more sideburn trouble next

306
00:13:08.340 --> 00:13:08.940
door, as well.

307
00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:09.539
We will.

308
00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:14.039
Really well served by this is Fraser Hines.

309
00:13:14.100 --> 00:13:16.559
Last season, you commented on this, Nathan.

310
00:13:16.620 --> 00:13:19.320
Jamie sort of became just the every man.

311
00:13:19.379 --> 00:13:20.460
He became like Ian.

312
00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:23.340
But whereas Ian would have a general knowledge of all different

313
00:13:23.340 --> 00:13:23.879
situations.

314
00:13:23.940 --> 00:13:26.460
Jamie is meant to have very specified knowledge of his time.

315
00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:30.299
And the Crotons manages to make him intelligent and resourceful

316
00:13:30.299 --> 00:13:33.899
but also play on the fact that, unlike Zoe, his mind is

317
00:13:33.899 --> 00:13:34.559
untrained.

318
00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:38.279
Zoe is given a similar sort of character development.

319
00:13:38.340 --> 00:13:41.460
She's able to use her computer knowledge, and of course, it leads

320
00:13:41.460 --> 00:13:44.399
to that wonderful line of Zoe, something of a genius.

321
00:13:44.460 --> 00:13:46.080
It can be rather irritating at times.

322
00:13:46.139 --> 00:13:48.360
She beats the doctor in the test.

323
00:13:48.419 --> 00:13:51.899
She actually says to the doctor that he's almost as clever as me.

324
00:13:51.960 --> 00:13:52.919
Yes, yeah.

325
00:13:52.980 --> 00:13:57.419
And it's just wonderful character interplay, which would soon

326
00:13:57.419 --> 00:13:59.100
become a byword behind.

327
00:13:59.159 --> 00:14:03.720
Where the characterisation suffers is in the character of Vana.

328
00:14:04.019 --> 00:14:08.460
And this is something that the wife in space picks up a fair bit

329
00:14:08.460 --> 00:14:13.919
in that Robert Holmes doesn't seem to be so good at cooking.

330
00:14:13.980 --> 00:14:17.220
She's not given a lot of time on screen either, is she, before she

331
00:14:17.220 --> 00:14:18.539
turns into a big aubergine?

332
00:14:18.539 --> 00:14:21.419
Yeah, she does. which is sort of unconscious for a fair amount of

333
00:14:21.419 --> 00:14:21.659
it.

334
00:14:22.139 --> 00:14:24.120
She does, but it's lazy.

335
00:14:24.179 --> 00:14:27.600
But I guess, you know, the girls were there to squeal and look

336
00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:28.080
lovely.

337
00:14:28.139 --> 00:14:31.740
So there are, oh, there's Madeline disagree, I guess, coming up in

338
00:14:31.740 --> 00:14:34.559
space pirates and there's Meg Seely.

339
00:14:34.679 --> 00:14:37.860
I'm just trying to think of women in future homes stories.

340
00:14:37.980 --> 00:14:39.480
There's none in power of control.

341
00:14:39.539 --> 00:14:43.259
It's really weird because when he writes women well, particularly

342
00:14:43.259 --> 00:14:45.059
he usually writes The Companion very well.

343
00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:47.100
They're really great.

344
00:14:47.159 --> 00:14:49.860
Yeah, but other times...

345
00:14:49.919 --> 00:14:53.220
Other times they're just cyphers or they've got one line or

346
00:14:53.220 --> 00:14:54.120
they're not even present.

347
00:14:54.179 --> 00:14:57.299
It's it's really old and this is a very strange start for him, but

348
00:14:57.299 --> 00:15:00.899
as we'll discuss next time, he does kind of start to make up for

349
00:15:00.899 --> 00:15:03.120
it with Madeline, secret.

350
00:15:03.179 --> 00:15:07.559
I think the big thing that starts here that you can see right from

351
00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:10.980
the beginning and something that becomes a staple of homes as

352
00:15:10.980 --> 00:15:14.279
whole outlook on the program. something that really influences the

353
00:15:14.279 --> 00:15:19.440
program going forward. is that the doctor has to be more fun and

354
00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:22.740
funny than the villains, you know, there's 2 fantastic scenes

355
00:15:22.740 --> 00:15:23.639
between him and Zoe.

356
00:15:23.700 --> 00:15:26.460
There's the one we alluded to earlier in the learning hall where

357
00:15:26.460 --> 00:15:31.320
it's his turn to use the learning machine and he keeps getting

358
00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:34.679
flustered and getting it wrong and and, you know, don't help me.

359
00:15:34.740 --> 00:15:37.200
No, no, what do I do here, you know, and he sort of terribly

360
00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:37.500
funny.

361
00:15:37.559 --> 00:15:40.139
And then there's the other scene when they're in the dinotrope

362
00:15:40.139 --> 00:15:42.419
which is the name of the Croton spaceship.

363
00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:45.480
And they have to put the helmets on because they're the 2 high

364
00:15:45.480 --> 00:15:48.480
brains and they're going to take off.

365
00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:51.419
And the doctor's, you know, putting the, putting the headset on

366
00:15:51.419 --> 00:15:55.080
you know, the wrong way round and picking an argument about where

367
00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:57.899
to stand and, you know, so he goes, oh, I wanted to stand there.

368
00:15:57.960 --> 00:15:59.460
Oh, I'm so sorry, my dear.

369
00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:01.379
And like they're talking about...

370
00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:08.220
And and like the doctor in a home script tends to be fun and funny

371
00:16:08.220 --> 00:16:10.019
and the villains here.

372
00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:11.940
They're not just sort of stupid crystals or anything.

373
00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:13.919
They go on about procedure.

374
00:16:13.980 --> 00:16:17.039
Everything that they do is informed by the procedure.

375
00:16:17.100 --> 00:16:18.659
We don't know what that is, you know what I mean?

376
00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:22.740
But, um, and so they're hide bound and rule bound.

377
00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:28.620
And that's the big theme of, um, of Holmes's take on Doctor Who

378
00:16:28.620 --> 00:16:34.799
that, um, the enemies are humourless and rule bound and

379
00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:35.580
conservative.

380
00:16:35.639 --> 00:16:38.039
I mean, Holmes himself is sort of politically conservative.

381
00:16:38.100 --> 00:16:41.220
And you can see it in the character of E-lech. is, you know, the

382
00:16:41.220 --> 00:16:44.220
person who takes the youth rebellion and turns it into something a

383
00:16:44.220 --> 00:16:46.139
bit, you know, evil.

384
00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:47.460
You know, there's a conservative.

385
00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:50.399
But so Holmes is kind of conservative and he's sort of known to be

386
00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:54.480
politically conservative, but his enemies in these stories are

387
00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:57.779
always the people who stick by the rules, the people who are

388
00:16:57.779 --> 00:17:02.279
beholden to procedure, and the thing the doctor comes is the thing

389
00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:06.240
the doctor does, rather is he comes in and sort of breaks that up

390
00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:11.400
and does that by being more fun and funny than the villains he's

391
00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:11.759
fighting against.

392
00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:15.299
Absolutely. what you were both talking about earlier with the

393
00:17:15.299 --> 00:17:19.740
instructional model of teaching, the info dump model of teaching

394
00:17:19.740 --> 00:17:22.500
you know, you follow the textbook and you'll be fine.

395
00:17:22.619 --> 00:17:25.319
Well, the doctor doesn't follow the textbook.

396
00:17:25.380 --> 00:17:27.720
The doctor can't even find the textbook because he's just thrown

397
00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:28.440
it over his shoulder.

398
00:17:28.500 --> 00:17:29.279
Oh wait, no, I needed that.

399
00:17:29.339 --> 00:17:30.299
You know.

400
00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:34.740
And straight away that becomes a great interest to the gods who

401
00:17:34.740 --> 00:17:39.539
are kind of going, oh no, you know, I don't want to. take all

402
00:17:39.539 --> 00:17:41.880
these tests to see if I'm ready to go inside the Dinotrope.

403
00:17:41.940 --> 00:17:47.039
The big thing is the discovery that, um, Abu Gond and blah, blah

404
00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:50.460
Gond have been killed. you know, the chosen ones.

405
00:17:50.519 --> 00:17:51.119
What are they called?

406
00:17:51.180 --> 00:17:52.140
Are they called chosen ones?

407
00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:53.160
The companions.

408
00:17:53.220 --> 00:17:55.019
The companions of the Crotons?

409
00:17:55.079 --> 00:17:55.859
The croton.

410
00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:58.319
What we discover is that the companions of the crotons are all

411
00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:03.059
being killed and that revelation is sort of irrefusable and that's

412
00:18:03.059 --> 00:18:04.799
the thing that, you know, sets everything in motion.

413
00:18:04.859 --> 00:18:07.619
And it's no wonder everyone's surprised by it because evolutionary

414
00:18:07.619 --> 00:18:09.299
wise, it's completely pants.

415
00:18:09.420 --> 00:18:12.180
If you're trying to, look, what I guess from this is they're

416
00:18:12.180 --> 00:18:16.980
trying to find a couple of guns or builds, I don't know, the race

417
00:18:16.980 --> 00:18:20.339
up so that they can get a couple of kids who are smart enough to

418
00:18:20.339 --> 00:18:23.099
join them on their four-sided console and fly out of there.

419
00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:28.319
Why would you denude the gene pool by knocking off everyone when

420
00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:30.779
they seem to just recover after a certain amount of time anyway?

421
00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:31.440
Yes.

422
00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:35.160
Except for Vana, who's just stuck being red haired or open haired

423
00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:38.519
and a bit, you know, ex-go-go dancer for the rest of the episode.

424
00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:41.160
Quaalude and Nelly's being off the place.

425
00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:46.440
It's just, it's really stupid. really silly.

426
00:18:46.500 --> 00:18:50.279
Select all the smartest people and kill them. and kill them.

427
00:18:50.339 --> 00:18:53.039
It sounds more like a Murdoch program.

428
00:18:53.099 --> 00:18:57.119
You know, if they were mining the area for the micro and the

429
00:18:57.119 --> 00:18:58.920
silicone that's around. you could.

430
00:18:58.980 --> 00:19:00.779
Which would kind of think they would be exactly yeah, but

431
00:19:00.779 --> 00:19:01.920
they're...

432
00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:02.819
I know they're feeding.

433
00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:05.339
They obviously feeding assistance with the lower intelligence

434
00:19:05.339 --> 00:19:06.240
system that they're getting.

435
00:19:06.299 --> 00:19:08.700
So they're keeping it keeping the system doubling over, but

436
00:19:08.700 --> 00:19:09.059
they're not.

437
00:19:09.059 --> 00:19:10.680
No, Eldred wouldn't have done this.

438
00:19:10.740 --> 00:19:12.599
No, they just keep much cleverer.

439
00:19:12.660 --> 00:19:13.259
That's right.

440
00:19:13.380 --> 00:19:15.720
She was actually the 1st missy.

441
00:19:15.779 --> 00:19:16.920
Eldro.

442
00:19:16.980 --> 00:19:19.680
Yes, the sex changing Doctor Who.

443
00:19:19.740 --> 00:19:21.059
Yeah, we own her.

444
00:19:24.119 --> 00:19:25.440
It's got the 1st spot joke.

445
00:19:25.500 --> 00:19:29.880
I know you love aliens of London and World War 3 and all the rest

446
00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:33.720
of it, but honestly, as soon as they're good on this planet, it's

447
00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:37.559
got to ruling on them and sulphur and it's the planet of the fart

448
00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:38.099
bombs.

449
00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:41.220
Well, you take Bob Homes is quite famous for our jokes and power

450
00:19:41.220 --> 00:19:43.079
crawl. the biggest one.

451
00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:43.859
Do you know what I mean?

452
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:45.420
They're packaging up methane.

453
00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:47.339
Wonder where this methane comes from.

454
00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:49.559
And then they discover it's Kroll's farm.

455
00:19:49.619 --> 00:19:54.299
And that's what then Tom says to the Mighty Hargore or

456
00:19:54.299 --> 00:19:55.140
Philomatic.

457
00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:57.779
Well, have you seen I'm not surprised you haven't seen Raman or do

458
00:19:57.779 --> 00:19:58.680
you have you seen Raman?

459
00:19:58.740 --> 00:20:00.059
She's not the easiest of guests.

460
00:20:00.180 --> 00:20:04.200
I think they're perhaps fart jokes going all the way through.

461
00:20:04.980 --> 00:20:10.019
So can we talk a lot about Philip Maddock when the war games comes

462
00:20:10.019 --> 00:20:10.319
out?

463
00:20:10.380 --> 00:20:11.279
I think we're going to have to.

464
00:20:11.339 --> 00:20:13.920
Yeah, because he's... amazing.

465
00:20:13.980 --> 00:20:16.319
I don't know what else we can say about this.

466
00:20:16.380 --> 00:20:19.440
It's more interesting a game for what it alludes to, which is

467
00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:25.259
revolution and stuff that was going on in the press at the time.

468
00:20:25.319 --> 00:20:27.180
But you can get why it's there.

469
00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:30.059
It fits really nicely in between the invasion and what's just

470
00:20:30.059 --> 00:20:30.660
about to come up.

471
00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:34.559
Sitting on its own as it did in the early 80s before you were with

472
00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:37.619
us, Brendan, but then some of us were, you know, got pirate copies

473
00:20:37.619 --> 00:20:40.799
of the 5 faces of the Doctor Who.

474
00:20:40.859 --> 00:20:44.640
This was the one used to show us what the trout Nero was like.

475
00:20:44.700 --> 00:20:46.980
And for most people, they hadn't seen us in 69.

476
00:20:47.220 --> 00:20:48.059
What?

477
00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:48.660
Is that what it was like?

478
00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:49.859
It's not my memory of what it was.

479
00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:51.480
No, because it's completely atypical.

480
00:20:51.539 --> 00:20:54.539
But the thing is, it was the only completely extant small part of

481
00:20:54.539 --> 00:20:57.900
that was available on the 5 faces of Doctor Who was all 4 part

482
00:20:57.900 --> 00:20:58.200
ones.

483
00:20:58.259 --> 00:21:01.440
And then we had the experience that we talked about last time in

484
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:04.799
1986 of seeing the crotons and the mind robber, which were the

485
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:07.259
only ones that they repeated.

486
00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:11.339
So, yeah, we've known it for a long time, but it is massively

487
00:21:11.339 --> 00:21:12.059
atypical.

488
00:21:12.119 --> 00:21:15.660
And it is partly, I think, because season 6 is breaking away from

489
00:21:15.660 --> 00:21:19.200
that season 5, let's do the same thing every week, but only

490
00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:22.740
slightly better each time, perhaps, and they're doing crazy

491
00:21:22.740 --> 00:21:23.160
things.

492
00:21:23.220 --> 00:21:28.440
I mean, we did just discuss the mind growber, you know, it's a

493
00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:29.039
very strange season.

494
00:21:29.099 --> 00:21:32.160
I've got to get out of this is that it's nowhere near as bad as I

495
00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:34.440
remember it being, which is...

496
00:21:34.619 --> 00:21:36.539
No, no, it isn't.

497
00:21:36.599 --> 00:21:38.700
I actually didn't didn't not enjoy it.

498
00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:40.680
And there are parts I really did enjoy watching it again.

499
00:21:40.740 --> 00:21:45.660
I mean, even if its message is not 100% coming through loud and

500
00:21:45.660 --> 00:21:45.900
clear.

501
00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:49.079
I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing because the one thing

502
00:21:49.079 --> 00:21:52.740
worse than the message of a story not coming through clearly is it

503
00:21:52.740 --> 00:21:54.599
being hit home with a sledgehammer.

504
00:21:54.660 --> 00:21:57.420
Hello, season one of Star Trek and Next Generation.

505
00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:02.339
But what you have here, as well as that message, you've got a

506
00:22:02.339 --> 00:22:04.859
pretty solid action adventure story.

507
00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:08.160
You know, within 10 minutes of episode one, Jamie's got into a

508
00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:09.960
fight because he's JB, he gets into a fight.

509
00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:13.920
But it just, it clicks along at a fair pace.

510
00:22:13.980 --> 00:22:14.759
It's never boring.

511
00:22:14.819 --> 00:22:15.720
It's never dull.

512
00:22:15.779 --> 00:22:17.279
The plot hangs together, it makes sense.

513
00:22:17.339 --> 00:22:19.559
Yeah, at its worst.

514
00:22:19.619 --> 00:22:22.920
It's a great story to put on while you're doing the ironing.

515
00:22:22.980 --> 00:22:25.500
We're doing a pertuie era early next year.

516
00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:27.359
That's how I feel about that, general.

517
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:29.579
Well, you do it in the eye.

518
00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:29.940
Yeah.

519
00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:37.500
You can't iron bills, it crushes the pile.

520
00:22:38.460 --> 00:22:43.440
And from piles to the moon, we're often seeds of death.

521
00:22:52.500 --> 00:22:56.759
So I complained loudly and bitterly over and over again to whoever

522
00:22:56.759 --> 00:23:02.039
would listen at that season 5 was terribly samey, and it was that

523
00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:03.660
sort of base under siege thing.

524
00:23:03.720 --> 00:23:07.380
And that's what we have here, we do have, I think, the very last

525
00:23:07.380 --> 00:23:12.839
or maybe the 2nd last trout and base under siege story, and the

526
00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:15.599
last classic monster story of the 60s.

527
00:23:15.660 --> 00:23:17.039
It's a lot of lasts in this.

528
00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:21.720
So we've got the we've got the ice warriors that probably is for

529
00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:25.740
no other reason than to be a monster in a base under siege story.

530
00:23:25.859 --> 00:23:28.019
And of course, they keep both builders in business.

531
00:23:28.140 --> 00:23:32.099
But they make Gia Kelly skips in that outfit look tame.

532
00:23:32.460 --> 00:23:36.180
They have such embarrassing, don't they?

533
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:38.400
Louise Pleasure is a lovely actress.

534
00:23:38.460 --> 00:23:39.720
No, it wasn't.

535
00:23:39.779 --> 00:23:41.400
Very unkind.

536
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:45.599
And so they're in vain the moon as usual.

537
00:23:45.660 --> 00:23:47.220
That's another favourite place.

538
00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:48.359
Is that a metaphor?

539
00:23:48.420 --> 00:23:49.799
Well, it's the...

540
00:23:49.799 --> 00:23:53.640
It's another famous location of a base under siege.

541
00:23:53.700 --> 00:23:55.680
And I think at one point in the dialogue, the moon base on the

542
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:56.940
moon is called Moonbase 2.

543
00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:00.359
And you have to think that Moonbase one is the one with Benoit and

544
00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:03.960
Hopson and things that got attacked by Versideman that one time.

545
00:24:04.019 --> 00:24:07.440
We have a base commander, Radnall, who will go on to play another

546
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:09.960
base commander in Tom Baker's 1st season.

547
00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:11.880
He's.

548
00:24:11.940 --> 00:24:15.119
He's in the sidemen story in that.

549
00:24:16.380 --> 00:24:20.940
And again, we've got a high concept future world where something

550
00:24:20.940 --> 00:24:24.299
big has happened and the world has sort of been changed.

551
00:24:24.359 --> 00:24:30.000
So in this case, the huge, fabulous, sexy technology of the era

552
00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:32.759
which is, you know, rocketry and space technology.

553
00:24:32.819 --> 00:24:36.779
Remember, we're, you know, months away from the moon landing.

554
00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:38.039
Yeah, about 4 or 5 months.

555
00:24:38.099 --> 00:24:39.299
It wasn't very long at all.

556
00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:42.359
And the early missions had all been televised, so people were

557
00:24:42.359 --> 00:24:43.920
aware, you know, we're going to the moon.

558
00:24:43.980 --> 00:24:50.640
Apollo 8 had just circumnavigated the equator of the moon as this

559
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:51.180
was going out.

560
00:24:51.240 --> 00:24:53.160
And you can see that.

561
00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:55.799
So we're getting our 1st shots of the dark side of the moon.

562
00:24:55.799 --> 00:24:59.339
And the opening credits, you know, like as happened sometimes in

563
00:24:59.339 --> 00:25:05.039
the in the trout near and in the 1st season of perchway, you've

564
00:25:05.039 --> 00:25:09.180
got a special bit after the closing credits end for the story

565
00:25:09.180 --> 00:25:10.319
title in the episode.

566
00:25:10.380 --> 00:25:14.220
And here you've got model shots of the moon and the earth seen

567
00:25:14.220 --> 00:25:17.700
from space and all of those things that, you know, that were huge

568
00:25:17.700 --> 00:25:18.240
at the time.

569
00:25:18.299 --> 00:25:21.960
And the audacious thing is this is a world where everyone's bored

570
00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:24.839
with that stuff where that stuff is obsolete.

571
00:25:24.900 --> 00:25:26.759
It's such an English show.

572
00:25:26.819 --> 00:25:30.720
Thank you for raising that up because you've got a female based

573
00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:34.680
commander who nobody comments on being in that role, whereas in

574
00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:36.960
Star Trek, as you say at the time, it would have been such a big

575
00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:37.140
deal.

576
00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:40.319
It's a lady person, doing a lady job.

577
00:25:40.380 --> 00:25:41.039
Can I imagine?

578
00:25:41.819 --> 00:25:46.680
The only Star Trek episode that I was alive on broadcast is

579
00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:48.960
Turnabout Intruder, which was the final episode.

580
00:25:49.019 --> 00:25:50.759
I was born just before it.

581
00:25:50.759 --> 00:25:55.259
And that final episode has a woman called Janice Leicester.

582
00:25:55.319 --> 00:25:56.099
Janice Lester.

583
00:25:56.099 --> 00:26:00.599
She finds a special archeological artefact that can swap bodies

584
00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:04.259
and she swaps bodies with Captain Kirk so that she can become a

585
00:26:04.259 --> 00:26:07.619
Starfleet commander because women weren't allowed to command

586
00:26:07.619 --> 00:26:09.900
spaceships in the 23rd century.

587
00:26:10.500 --> 00:26:16.200
That line has created so much trouble in Star Trek law because

588
00:26:16.200 --> 00:26:20.279
it's like Gene Roddenbury wouldn't have written that because of

589
00:26:20.279 --> 00:26:23.940
course Gene Roddenbury wanted an H.L. Barrett to be in charge of

590
00:26:23.940 --> 00:26:26.519
the ship whenever Jeffrey Hunter wasn't there. right, way back.

591
00:26:26.579 --> 00:26:27.420
And that's the thing.

592
00:26:27.480 --> 00:26:31.799
Her line is slightly ambiguous in that it's your world of starship

593
00:26:31.799 --> 00:26:33.299
captain doesn't admit women.

594
00:26:33.299 --> 00:26:37.500
And what some people have taken that to mean is several times.

595
00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:40.140
Kirk laments that he can't marry because he's married to his

596
00:26:40.140 --> 00:26:41.160
ship.

597
00:26:41.220 --> 00:26:42.660
They come with a girl.

598
00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:45.420
Although he put his best efforts in.

599
00:26:45.480 --> 00:26:49.380
Yeah, actually, with the gusset and the wig later on, yes.

600
00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:53.579
He minces around the ship when Janice possesses his body in the

601
00:26:53.579 --> 00:26:54.539
most remarkable way.

602
00:26:54.599 --> 00:26:57.420
It's really something spectacular Look, I mean, that's just

603
00:26:57.420 --> 00:27:03.000
desperate recons from a fan of that has an actual canon where they

604
00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:04.380
have to harmonise things.

605
00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:05.460
Yeah, that's a nice thing.

606
00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:06.539
We took no such thing.

607
00:27:06.599 --> 00:27:09.359
Yeah, it's amazing that I can't wait till we get into Dalek

608
00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:10.079
History podcast.

609
00:27:10.140 --> 00:27:11.039
What are we doing that one?

610
00:27:11.099 --> 00:27:14.819
It is amazing. you're right, Nathan, that at that time that Star

611
00:27:14.819 --> 00:27:18.839
Trek was going, Women can't be in charge of starships and then

612
00:27:18.839 --> 00:27:21.900
having a plot where a woman gets in charge of a starship and goes

613
00:27:21.900 --> 00:27:22.799
hysterical.

614
00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:27.119
We have Gia Kelly.

615
00:27:27.180 --> 00:27:31.619
I'm saying that I'm saying that presentation is a bad thing.

616
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:33.720
Sorry, Richard's eyes, it was ping-pong balls.

617
00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:38.940
On the other side of the pond, we have Gia Kelly as the only

618
00:27:38.940 --> 00:27:40.740
person who knows how team at works.

619
00:27:40.859 --> 00:27:43.380
He just runs circles around everywhere.

620
00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:44.880
She's so spectacular.

621
00:27:44.940 --> 00:27:48.539
And there's a moment where she has to go to the moon, like Pat and

622
00:27:48.539 --> 00:27:51.960
Jamie and Zoe are going to the moon by rocket, but she actually

623
00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:54.480
gets there before them because Team Adam sort of repaired enough

624
00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:56.339
for her to be able to do that.

625
00:27:56.400 --> 00:27:58.980
And Radner says, no, no, you can't go.

626
00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:02.640
And I expected his next line to be something about how it was too

627
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:04.319
dangerous for a lady or something like that.

628
00:28:04.380 --> 00:28:07.740
But you can't go because you're completely indispensable and we

629
00:28:07.740 --> 00:28:10.140
can't do without you here.

630
00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:14.400
And she's just so superbly confident and so fantastic.

631
00:28:15.180 --> 00:28:20.160
Miss Garrett, I think we liked in the Ice Warriors last year, which

632
00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:24.299
was Brian Hale's previous story, but Gia Kelly runs rings around

633
00:28:24.299 --> 00:28:24.539
her.

634
00:28:24.599 --> 00:28:26.339
I think she's absolutely superb.

635
00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:29.880
Brian Hales does actually do quite interesting things with gender

636
00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:35.099
in his scripts because in the Ice Warriors, you had Penley in

637
00:28:35.099 --> 00:28:40.380
store, who were very much written in a romantic or anti-romantic

638
00:28:40.380 --> 00:28:43.500
old complaining married couple kind of way.

639
00:28:43.559 --> 00:28:47.220
And normally the ice warriors come as a complaining married couple

640
00:28:47.220 --> 00:28:48.000
too, then.

641
00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:48.420
That's true.

642
00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:49.140
That's very true.

643
00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:50.099
It just depends.

644
00:28:50.220 --> 00:28:52.500
It depends on the temperature of their eggs when they're born.

645
00:28:52.619 --> 00:28:54.960
You know, you've got you've got Miss Kelly here.

646
00:28:55.019 --> 00:28:59.940
You've got Alpha Centauri, who is neither male nor female later on

647
00:28:59.940 --> 00:29:03.900
and you've got Queen Falira, who has terrible trouble being a

648
00:29:03.900 --> 00:29:05.519
woman later on, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

649
00:29:05.579 --> 00:29:08.460
I just find it very interesting that Brian Hales does play with

650
00:29:08.460 --> 00:29:10.200
gender in his scripts.

651
00:29:10.259 --> 00:29:13.440
Albert in a very muted way.

652
00:29:13.500 --> 00:29:18.779
But, you know, for 60s and 70s, it is quite notable.

653
00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:22.680
Again, we have the theme of science versus technology and you

654
00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:24.299
talked about store a little bit earlier.

655
00:29:24.359 --> 00:29:27.839
You remember that stores kind of represented the complete

656
00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:30.720
rejection of technology in the ice warriors.

657
00:29:30.779 --> 00:29:34.140
Do you remember he was the Scotsman in sort of bear skins and

658
00:29:34.140 --> 00:29:34.380
things?

659
00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:38.940
Um, and the whole thing was opposition to having the computer run

660
00:29:38.940 --> 00:29:41.940
your life and, you know, the big decision that's made at the end

661
00:29:41.940 --> 00:29:44.279
is to go with human instinct and reject computer.

662
00:29:44.339 --> 00:29:47.759
What I like about this is this is also about technology, old

663
00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:49.799
technology versus new technology.

664
00:29:49.859 --> 00:29:54.420
Um, the team at, which seems to be a terribly brittle system.

665
00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:55.259
Do you know what I mean?

666
00:29:55.319 --> 00:29:56.400
The moment something goes wrong.

667
00:29:56.460 --> 00:29:58.980
Everyone is days away from starving.

668
00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:01.500
I mean, literally days away from so.

669
00:30:01.559 --> 00:30:04.740
No one has a pantry anymore because they've just got a phone block

670
00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:07.319
phone box on the corner that's necessary for me.

671
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:08.519
Every meal.

672
00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:11.460
That's the most dissolving and uninteresting form of transmitting

673
00:30:11.460 --> 00:30:12.539
that's ever been.

674
00:30:12.599 --> 00:30:14.160
You know it's Doctor Who and they just flip.

675
00:30:14.220 --> 00:30:16.079
Yeah, there's no roll back in me.

676
00:30:16.140 --> 00:30:20.039
I mean, what that reminds me of is the machine stops by EM

677
00:30:20.039 --> 00:30:20.640
Forster.

678
00:30:20.700 --> 00:30:23.640
And if you haven't read it, I do recommend it, where you have

679
00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:28.559
everyone is living in a little sort of honeycomb like cell and

680
00:30:28.559 --> 00:30:32.279
hardly anyone ever goes away and leaves to see other people

681
00:30:32.279 --> 00:30:34.559
because they can get them on the busy screen.

682
00:30:34.619 --> 00:30:35.880
They can talk to them that way.

683
00:30:35.940 --> 00:30:37.259
Oh, that's grind.

684
00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:40.319
They get all... they get all their food delivered to them.

685
00:30:40.380 --> 00:30:42.000
That's their WWW.

686
00:30:42.059 --> 00:30:43.140
Tinder.

687
00:30:43.200 --> 00:30:44.700
Tinder or any exactly.

688
00:30:44.759 --> 00:30:47.759
I saw a girl on the on the bus the other day flicking through

689
00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:50.460
pictures of boys and then she came across an Asian once you just

690
00:30:50.460 --> 00:30:54.299
hit X. And I thought, yeah, that's kind of our culture now, so you

691
00:30:54.299 --> 00:30:55.079
get real for a second.

692
00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:56.759
Yeah, that is. yeah.

693
00:30:56.819 --> 00:30:57.180
Yeah.

694
00:30:57.240 --> 00:30:59.819
Who knew who would have known how pressing this was?

695
00:30:59.880 --> 00:31:00.900
I think I read that.

696
00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:02.220
I think I may have read that.

697
00:31:02.279 --> 00:31:03.480
It's a lovely novella.

698
00:31:03.539 --> 00:31:04.440
That's the thing.

699
00:31:04.500 --> 00:31:05.940
A lot of people say about this part.

700
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:08.759
Oh, you know, it's completely unrealistic that we would put the

701
00:31:08.759 --> 00:31:11.579
control centre so far away and it's completely unrealistic that

702
00:31:11.579 --> 00:31:12.539
people wouldn't have.

703
00:31:12.599 --> 00:31:13.680
But moon based in London.

704
00:31:13.740 --> 00:31:15.900
Well, it's actually just a PNG, isn't it?

705
00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:19.079
It's Telecom, British or Telstra.

706
00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:19.859
Exactly.

707
00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:24.420
Most call centres for services are not in the country, servicing.

708
00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:25.980
Bane modern culture.

709
00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:29.880
But the system is brittle in a way that it shouldn't be if

710
00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:30.900
everyone relies on it.

711
00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:32.460
And Professor Eldred.

712
00:31:32.519 --> 00:31:36.420
He's been the one against science, not against science, but

713
00:31:36.420 --> 00:31:37.500
against modern science.

714
00:31:37.559 --> 00:31:39.900
And he points that out at the end when they're talking about

715
00:31:39.900 --> 00:31:40.440
research.

716
00:31:40.500 --> 00:31:41.400
That why he's the only team.

717
00:31:41.460 --> 00:31:42.299
Yeah.

718
00:31:42.359 --> 00:31:44.339
That's why he's the only one in a rubber cardigan, isn't he?

719
00:31:44.460 --> 00:31:45.000
Oh my god.

720
00:31:45.059 --> 00:31:46.740
Can we talk about that in a second?

721
00:31:46.799 --> 00:31:50.220
So here, the science versus technology thing, and I think terribly

722
00:31:50.220 --> 00:31:54.000
sweetly, in the Ice Warriors, it's a guy with a stone axe and

723
00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:56.519
bearskins who's on the anti-science side.

724
00:31:56.579 --> 00:32:02.160
Here, it's a guy who looks nostalgically at the very cutting edge

725
00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:03.960
technology of 1968.

726
00:32:04.140 --> 00:32:08.880
You know, it's it's our technology that's uh, uh, that's valorized

727
00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:09.059
here.

728
00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:12.119
Well, it's a bit like what they did in the space museum a few

729
00:32:12.119 --> 00:32:12.839
years before this.

730
00:32:12.900 --> 00:32:14.819
You know, old space travelled, old hat, now.

731
00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:16.259
Nobody's interested in that anymore.

732
00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:17.339
Nobody's coming to the museum.

733
00:32:17.400 --> 00:32:18.779
Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

734
00:32:18.839 --> 00:32:20.279
British thing, isn't it?

735
00:32:20.339 --> 00:32:24.299
A very British thing of absolutely refusing to get excited about

736
00:32:24.299 --> 00:32:26.940
what's the most...

737
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:30.779
And looking at I'm looking at it in the most cynical way possible

738
00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:35.279
as if you could have actually had Tony Hancock, as Eldred, or as

739
00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:38.339
one of the older commanders, and it wouldn't have set, this could

740
00:32:38.339 --> 00:32:41.519
have been played by the cast of Hans Hancock's half hour, which is

741
00:32:41.519 --> 00:32:44.460
a lovely thought, because we would have had Hattie Jax as Geo

742
00:32:44.460 --> 00:32:44.940
Kelly.

743
00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:48.000
And that rubble James is Commander Radnor.

744
00:32:48.059 --> 00:32:51.359
That would have really been a stretch, wouldn't that true?

745
00:32:51.420 --> 00:32:54.119
I want to get back to the rubber cardigan at this point.

746
00:32:54.180 --> 00:32:56.940
I was saying that would have gone a bit of stretch.

747
00:32:57.000 --> 00:32:59.160
So everyone's wearing these.

748
00:32:59.220 --> 00:33:02.099
I mean, like they, you know, normal. rompers.

749
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:02.880
Yeah, horrible.

750
00:33:02.940 --> 00:33:04.440
It's like consonants, pants.

751
00:33:04.500 --> 00:33:09.480
But like Professor Eldred works at a museum and Radner works

752
00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:10.019
somewhere else.

753
00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:11.039
Do you know what I mean?

754
00:33:11.099 --> 00:33:12.059
team at stations.

755
00:33:12.119 --> 00:33:12.720
Exactly.

756
00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:14.700
And then there's John Sudbury or something.

757
00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:15.599
Is that what he's called?

758
00:33:15.660 --> 00:33:16.440
make that up.

759
00:33:16.500 --> 00:33:18.000
And he comes to old...

760
00:33:18.059 --> 00:33:21.420
Then he comes from he comes from the the ministry, but they all

761
00:33:21.420 --> 00:33:24.299
wear these sort of depends undergarments on the outside if

762
00:33:24.299 --> 00:33:25.859
they're...

763
00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:28.079
Except for geopellic.

764
00:33:28.140 --> 00:33:32.099
She wears her own black, etherquette, catwoman version of it.

765
00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:33.240
Louise brought that from home.

766
00:33:36.299 --> 00:33:38.819
Yeah, those costumes are absolutely ridiculous.

767
00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:41.700
You guys showed this to a friend who hadn't been watching after

768
00:33:41.700 --> 00:33:44.279
who we just watched the 1st one and all he said was, what the

769
00:33:44.279 --> 00:33:47.880
expletive are they wearing?

770
00:33:47.940 --> 00:33:49.200
Whose idea was that?

771
00:33:49.259 --> 00:33:50.039
It's the 60s.

772
00:33:50.099 --> 00:33:50.819
Everyone was very modern.

773
00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:52.140
At least they're tucked in.

774
00:33:52.200 --> 00:33:53.700
We don't get any little sense.

775
00:33:53.759 --> 00:33:56.519
They're defining little lines around their hips, just to let you

776
00:33:56.519 --> 00:33:59.279
just to let you know that everyone's been living on a diet of

777
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:01.140
spams, dodge.

778
00:34:02.579 --> 00:34:05.339
Well, the funny thing is, it's only spam and dumplings that are

779
00:34:05.339 --> 00:34:08.099
the foods that survive the team that process, so many people know

780
00:34:08.099 --> 00:34:08.280
that.

781
00:34:08.820 --> 00:34:13.800
But yeah, I can sort of look at them and go, they come from

782
00:34:13.800 --> 00:34:18.659
Thunderbirds, that kind of, this is what the future will look

783
00:34:18.659 --> 00:34:18.900
like.

784
00:34:18.960 --> 00:34:24.840
But they just missed the point that the Thunderbirds things are a

785
00:34:24.840 --> 00:34:28.860
logical extrapolation of current military uniforms. whereas this

786
00:34:28.860 --> 00:34:31.860
is just textured...

787
00:34:31.860 --> 00:34:32.579
Jumpsuits.

788
00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:37.079
Thunderbirds where the American graffiti hasn't been on yet, but

789
00:34:37.079 --> 00:34:42.900
they wear 50s ice cream sellers uniforms. where they're coming

790
00:34:42.900 --> 00:34:43.380
with this one.

791
00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:44.760
You would never do that now.

792
00:34:44.820 --> 00:34:47.400
I mean, if you had a civil servant coming from the ministry in the

793
00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:47.639
year.

794
00:34:47.699 --> 00:34:48.900
What year is it?

795
00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:50.579
It's like 100 years in the future.

796
00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:53.639
No, Ice Warriors is a 1000 years in the future.

797
00:34:53.699 --> 00:34:54.719
This is a 100 years in the future.

798
00:34:54.780 --> 00:34:56.519
Yes, that's 2060s, yeah.

799
00:34:56.579 --> 00:34:57.059
Yeah, yeah.

800
00:34:57.119 --> 00:34:59.519
And you would have a man from the ministry turn up in a suit

801
00:34:59.519 --> 00:34:59.940
wouldn't you?

802
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:02.460
He'd been dressed like Trevor Sigma, you know, with a bowl hat and

803
00:35:02.460 --> 00:35:02.760
stuff.

804
00:35:02.820 --> 00:35:06.000
And he would be an anatronism, but you were trying to convey to

805
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:08.519
the audience who this person is and what sort of character they

806
00:35:08.519 --> 00:35:08.760
are.

807
00:35:08.820 --> 00:35:12.300
And, you know, for some reason they forego doing that using their

808
00:35:12.300 --> 00:35:14.639
clothing and just having everyone in these sort of horrendous

809
00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:21.480
adults. incontinence where, yeah, I mean, a show that really did

810
00:35:21.480 --> 00:35:27.179
well with not going very far in the future, but figuring out a

811
00:35:27.179 --> 00:35:30.599
really good dress system, not just for the military, but for all

812
00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:34.320
walks of life, was Babylon 5, who had suits where instead of

813
00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:37.380
having, instead of having a lapel that's attached to the suit, it

814
00:35:37.380 --> 00:35:41.940
was a separate strip of fabric that was attached and just had sort

815
00:35:41.940 --> 00:35:45.360
of epaulettes at the top, like little epaulette buttons, and

816
00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:46.619
that's all bullet hell walls.

817
00:35:46.679 --> 00:35:48.780
So it kept the line of the design.

818
00:35:48.840 --> 00:35:53.519
But made it look like it was from a different time.

819
00:35:53.579 --> 00:35:54.840
And that's the thing.

820
00:35:54.900 --> 00:35:58.559
What these people are wearing doesn't really have much bearing

821
00:35:58.559 --> 00:36:03.960
with what their functions were in the 20th century.

822
00:36:04.019 --> 00:36:05.639
The scientists don't look like scientists.

823
00:36:05.699 --> 00:36:08.699
The civil servant doesn't look like a civil servant.

824
00:36:08.760 --> 00:36:10.440
Unless it's a non-to-communism.

825
00:36:10.500 --> 00:36:12.719
The only people who were wearing uniforms at the time.

826
00:36:12.780 --> 00:36:15.960
If there was any way reductive and normal.

827
00:36:16.019 --> 00:36:17.579
This thing like this.

828
00:36:17.639 --> 00:36:19.679
Well, yeah, with a malice. and that would seem as a really scary

829
00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:20.039
thing.

830
00:36:20.099 --> 00:36:23.639
So maybe they're talking about that society's had a huge change.

831
00:36:23.699 --> 00:36:25.500
Yeah, it's what we're looking at.

832
00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:29.039
So no one actually mentions with all these team activeries going

833
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:29.280
about.

834
00:36:29.340 --> 00:36:30.840
No one's mentioning who's picking up the bill.

835
00:36:30.900 --> 00:36:34.559
Yeah, it looks like a world government thing, doesn't it, on Jerry

836
00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:35.760
Anderson line.

837
00:36:35.820 --> 00:36:38.579
No, they talk about the United Nations, I think, don't they, at

838
00:36:38.579 --> 00:36:40.500
some point or did I just make that up?

839
00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:42.239
Am I completely adulating?

840
00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:43.920
The United Nations?

841
00:36:43.980 --> 00:36:48.900
I tend to think, you know, most of these things, we assume, post

842
00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:51.000
apocalyptic world of some kind or another, that something's been

843
00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:54.119
mastered, and this is the reason you now have social cohesion.

844
00:36:54.179 --> 00:36:56.460
The 1st thing I thought watching this is what were they doing

845
00:36:56.460 --> 00:36:58.320
about terrorism and illegal immigration.

846
00:36:58.380 --> 00:37:01.860
It doesn't seem to be a concern, which again suggests that the

847
00:37:01.860 --> 00:37:06.960
rest of society is so normalised and formalised and maybe, you

848
00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:10.019
know, just in such tight little strides that that isn't a

849
00:37:10.019 --> 00:37:10.320
problem.

850
00:37:10.380 --> 00:37:11.820
Why would that not be a problem?

851
00:37:11.880 --> 00:37:13.079
Because everything else is so controlled.

852
00:37:13.260 --> 00:37:16.619
I don't think it's because everyone has all the lovely things that

853
00:37:16.619 --> 00:37:18.539
they want appearing the moment that they need them.

854
00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:22.619
Provided you live in Canberra or Tokyo or Ottawa.

855
00:37:22.679 --> 00:37:26.639
So why are the Ice Warriors is the next question because in the

856
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:30.420
last, in the last Nice Warrior story, we were surrounded by ice

857
00:37:30.420 --> 00:37:33.420
and they got thawed out of ice and that's something that Gates is

858
00:37:33.420 --> 00:37:37.559
reusers for Cold War when he reproduces the Ice Warriors after all

859
00:37:37.559 --> 00:37:38.099
this time.

860
00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:41.940
And the only thing that I can think of is that, um, Hales is

861
00:37:41.940 --> 00:37:43.559
borrowing a lot of stuff from more of the world.

862
00:37:43.619 --> 00:37:48.000
And in particular, you might remember that the War of the Worlds

863
00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:51.480
which is a fantastic novel.

864
00:37:51.539 --> 00:37:56.460
I mean, I saw the, um, I'm totally blanking on his name.

865
00:37:56.519 --> 00:37:57.539
John Powell?

866
00:37:57.599 --> 00:37:58.079
No.

867
00:37:58.079 --> 00:37:59.219
Tom Cruise?

868
00:37:59.340 --> 00:38:00.480
Tom Cruise.

869
00:38:00.539 --> 00:38:01.380
I saw the job.

870
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:02.699
I never seen the George Powell version.

871
00:38:02.760 --> 00:38:05.820
But I've read the book and I've always wanted them to do a film of

872
00:38:05.820 --> 00:38:10.980
the book because I want a film where the Martians invade London in

873
00:38:10.980 --> 00:38:14.340
like 1901 or whatever, you know, like that it's a bit more

874
00:38:14.340 --> 00:38:14.880
steampunk.

875
00:38:14.940 --> 00:38:18.420
But in any case, the Martians are trying to colonise our planet

876
00:38:18.420 --> 00:38:19.920
because their world was dying.

877
00:38:19.980 --> 00:38:21.780
That's their motivation in war of the worlds.

878
00:38:21.900 --> 00:38:26.579
And they inadvertently infect the world with a deadly weed, the

879
00:38:26.579 --> 00:38:31.980
red weed, and the red weed drives on water, whereas the vice

880
00:38:31.980 --> 00:38:35.820
Warriors one is destroyed by it, and it gets sort of killed by

881
00:38:35.820 --> 00:38:36.780
earth bacteria.

882
00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:43.440
And of course, like any giant fungal infection in late 1960s

883
00:38:43.440 --> 00:38:49.320
Doctor Who, the weed is realised using the BBC phone machine.

884
00:38:49.320 --> 00:38:54.480
And it's a huge, it's a huge finale for the BBC phone machine.

885
00:38:54.539 --> 00:38:56.219
It's really never worked as hard as this.

886
00:38:56.340 --> 00:39:01.019
You know, is it cliffhanger to episode 5 where Troughton's like

887
00:39:01.019 --> 00:39:05.400
flailing above his head in like giant amounts of foam?

888
00:39:05.460 --> 00:39:06.840
Yes, yes. that's right.

889
00:39:06.900 --> 00:39:10.920
And Wendy Padbury is behind a door on the other side of town at

890
00:39:10.920 --> 00:39:11.579
Ealing.

891
00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:13.619
Incidentally.

892
00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:17.639
That scene, as we were watching Doctor Who and making our way

893
00:39:17.639 --> 00:39:21.960
through that scene and the ice warrior coming over the hill with

894
00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:26.099
the sun behind him, are the 2 earlier scenes. that Rod remembers

895
00:39:26.099 --> 00:39:26.699
of Doctor Who.

896
00:39:26.760 --> 00:39:27.659
Oh, okay.

897
00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:31.440
See, I told you he was here, didn't it?

898
00:39:31.500 --> 00:39:32.099
Shut up.

899
00:39:35.159 --> 00:39:36.659
I can imagine that.

900
00:39:36.719 --> 00:39:40.860
That's a great scene with the sort of looming, you know, the light

901
00:39:40.860 --> 00:39:41.699
behind him and stuff.

902
00:39:41.760 --> 00:39:44.280
In fact, there's some really good direction on film.

903
00:39:44.340 --> 00:39:45.119
I think in this story.

904
00:39:45.179 --> 00:39:45.960
Yeah, yeah.

905
00:39:46.019 --> 00:39:47.159
I think it's Michael Ferguson.

906
00:39:47.219 --> 00:39:51.059
Am I right in thinking, Nathan, that this is the swan song for the

907
00:39:51.059 --> 00:39:52.860
BBC phone machine in Doctor Who?

908
00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:57.360
I think this might be its last one and it may actually have choked

909
00:39:57.360 --> 00:39:59.880
on the very demands place.

910
00:40:00.119 --> 00:40:04.380
Maybe it got a white balloon court in it. never worked again.

911
00:40:04.440 --> 00:40:08.340
Sport play blue grade because it turns up a lot in Space 1979.

912
00:40:08.519 --> 00:40:09.119
Does it?

913
00:40:09.179 --> 00:40:09.480
Yes.

914
00:40:09.539 --> 00:40:11.280
I'm not straight watch that.

915
00:40:11.340 --> 00:40:13.380
So does Fred Freiburger, unfortunately.

916
00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:17.519
And of course, the other thing about those phone machine scenes

917
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:22.079
either some, those scenes with Patrick falling about in the phone

918
00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:26.039
were filmed several weeks before the rest of the story.

919
00:40:26.099 --> 00:40:28.320
So in that scene, Patrick's got very short hair.

920
00:40:28.380 --> 00:40:31.079
And then for the rest of the story, he's got slightly longer

921
00:40:31.079 --> 00:40:32.159
haired, but you can't really tell.

922
00:40:32.219 --> 00:40:35.639
And then there's the episode where he's not actually there because

923
00:40:35.639 --> 00:40:36.900
he's gone off on holiday.

924
00:40:36.900 --> 00:40:40.320
And remember, he said, the whole episode is unconscious and then

925
00:40:40.320 --> 00:40:42.059
he's going to be beamed out into space or something.

926
00:40:42.179 --> 00:40:46.980
And when he comes back from that, his sideburns are almost down to

927
00:40:46.980 --> 00:40:47.280
his mouth.

928
00:40:47.340 --> 00:40:51.659
But a lot of people in this episode look radically different from

929
00:40:51.659 --> 00:40:54.900
they do in other stories, especially the 1st wiggly wobbly

930
00:40:54.900 --> 00:40:57.059
appearance of Jenna Coleman.

931
00:40:57.119 --> 00:40:59.820
Did you notice that Oswald is in the 1st episode?

932
00:40:59.880 --> 00:41:02.760
No, Jenna Coleman's Oswin, Oscar.

933
00:41:02.820 --> 00:41:04.139
I suppose she'd also been Oswald?

934
00:41:04.199 --> 00:41:07.380
No, Osgood is Osgood.

935
00:41:07.679 --> 00:41:08.219
Ingrid P.

936
00:41:08.280 --> 00:41:09.239
Ingrid Pitt.

937
00:41:09.300 --> 00:41:10.559
Ingrid Pitt, Oliver.

938
00:41:10.619 --> 00:41:12.119
I thought I thought it was a little bit.

939
00:41:12.179 --> 00:41:14.639
Yes, well, she does make an appearance as Harry Towb.

940
00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:16.559
For old Harry.

941
00:41:16.619 --> 00:41:17.039
Yeah.

942
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:20.460
He comes in, he flirts with Louise, you know, and gets killed.

943
00:41:20.519 --> 00:41:22.139
Yeah, because that's what happens if you quote.

944
00:41:22.260 --> 00:41:24.239
He gets killed every time he appears in Doctor Who.

945
00:41:24.300 --> 00:41:25.079
What's his other one?

946
00:41:25.139 --> 00:41:26.880
He's in terror of the automs.

947
00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:27.539
Yeah, as well.

948
00:41:28.139 --> 00:41:30.539
And he was interviewed years later and people say, you know, how

949
00:41:30.539 --> 00:41:32.400
do you see all that your character sort of comes in and dies

950
00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:34.440
within 2 or 3 scenes. like, no, it's great.

951
00:41:34.500 --> 00:41:36.239
I get a job and people remember it.

952
00:41:36.300 --> 00:41:38.699
How many times has that clip with the armchair been played?

953
00:41:38.760 --> 00:41:41.340
Oh, he gets killed by the armour player.

954
00:41:41.400 --> 00:41:42.840
But we're getting ahead of ourselves.

955
00:41:42.900 --> 00:41:46.199
I like fuchsium in that scene, actually. and Fuchsium's quite a

956
00:41:46.199 --> 00:41:46.559
good character.

957
00:41:46.619 --> 00:41:48.300
It's great all the way through, isn't it?

958
00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:48.719
Yeah.

959
00:41:48.780 --> 00:41:52.739
And it's this gift Brian Hale seems to have writing minor

960
00:41:52.739 --> 00:41:53.159
characters.

961
00:41:53.219 --> 00:41:57.780
So just to contextualise, fusion is the only person who survives

962
00:41:57.780 --> 00:42:00.719
the initial ice warrior attack on the moon base on Moonbase 2.

963
00:42:00.900 --> 00:42:03.179
Oh, except for Phipps.

964
00:42:03.239 --> 00:42:03.960
Mr. Pipps.

965
00:42:04.019 --> 00:42:05.099
He's lovely, isn't he?

966
00:42:05.219 --> 00:42:06.119
He gets killed too.

967
00:42:06.179 --> 00:42:09.360
But Fuchsm is desperate not to die, which I kind of think is a

968
00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:12.119
pretty reasonable motivation, actually. you know, like I think

969
00:42:12.119 --> 00:42:12.780
that's fair enough.

970
00:42:13.079 --> 00:42:17.159
Like the ice Warriors in this are really like murdery, aren't

971
00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:17.340
they?

972
00:42:17.400 --> 00:42:20.159
They didn't kill they kill lots and lots of people.

973
00:42:20.219 --> 00:42:24.300
And Fuchsian was kind of getting a bit more tense about this and a

974
00:42:24.300 --> 00:42:26.280
bit more implicated, but he continues to work with them.

975
00:42:26.639 --> 00:42:30.840
Like he sacrifices himself in episode five.

976
00:42:30.900 --> 00:42:36.360
He teamats everyone else off the moon, uh, and pretends that the

977
00:42:36.360 --> 00:42:40.920
special timer switch that he's going to use to get off pretends

978
00:42:40.920 --> 00:42:41.519
that that works.

979
00:42:41.579 --> 00:42:44.880
But I think we like Miss Kelly knows that it's not working or

980
00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:45.480
something like that.

981
00:42:45.539 --> 00:42:48.239
And then he broadcasts himself.

982
00:42:48.539 --> 00:42:53.400
Like he turns on the video, which is repaired, and he broadcasts

983
00:42:53.400 --> 00:42:56.820
the ice warriors' plans to everyone back on Earth.

984
00:42:56.880 --> 00:43:00.000
And the ice warrior kind of looks up at the camera and say, am I

985
00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:02.760
on camera, you know, and kills him.

986
00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:04.199
And so we see his sacrifice.

987
00:43:04.260 --> 00:43:09.179
And it's really wonderful because even Miss Kelly doesn't believe

988
00:43:09.179 --> 00:43:12.239
you know, once his team mattered them all off.

989
00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:15.659
She doesn't believe that he's sacrificed himself.

990
00:43:15.780 --> 00:43:18.900
She still thinks that he's a worthless traitor, and he gets to

991
00:43:18.900 --> 00:43:19.739
redeem himself.

992
00:43:19.800 --> 00:43:22.019
And it's very cool.

993
00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:22.980
It is very cool.

994
00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:25.679
It's another great character arc, I think.

995
00:43:25.739 --> 00:43:27.539
He's in Blake 7.

996
00:43:27.599 --> 00:43:28.860
Of course.

997
00:43:28.920 --> 00:43:30.360
Isn't everyone though?

998
00:43:30.420 --> 00:43:31.380
at this point.

999
00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:32.639
Well, pretty much.

1000
00:43:32.699 --> 00:43:33.059
Yeah.

1001
00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:37.860
So, the one thing that I wanted to say too, can I talk a little

1002
00:43:37.860 --> 00:43:39.480
bit about the base under siege thing?

1003
00:43:39.539 --> 00:43:41.880
Yes, actually, I've got something to say to that as well.

1004
00:43:41.940 --> 00:43:42.659
I do go on.

1005
00:43:42.780 --> 00:43:45.179
I said initially that I thought the problem with the base under

1006
00:43:45.179 --> 00:43:50.039
siege thing is that Doctor Who goes from a show about going

1007
00:43:50.039 --> 00:43:55.800
anywhere, doing anything, exploring the universe to show about

1008
00:43:55.800 --> 00:43:58.739
desperately trying to keep the universe out.

1009
00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:05.099
Um, yeah. and that it was kind of xenophobic and and kind of

1010
00:44:05.099 --> 00:44:09.239
narrow-minded in its in its approach and that it was a, that it

1011
00:44:09.239 --> 00:44:10.619
represented a sort of drop off.

1012
00:44:10.679 --> 00:44:13.619
You know, I think Doctor Who production wise gets better year

1013
00:44:13.619 --> 00:44:14.099
after year.

1014
00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:18.900
But, There are things I like about the Heartnel era as being just

1015
00:44:18.900 --> 00:44:22.500
more experimental and more fun and having less of a clear idea of

1016
00:44:22.500 --> 00:44:23.460
what it's trying to do.

1017
00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:26.940
Whereas now that we're stuck with bases under siege.

1018
00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:28.860
I think we've hit us a pretty negative note.

1019
00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:33.300
And I have to say that this is the ultimate base under siege, and

1020
00:44:33.300 --> 00:44:37.739
I think that it really, really, um, shows how bad bases under

1021
00:44:37.739 --> 00:44:40.380
siege can be.

1022
00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:45.900
And the thing about it is it's the moral effect. that it has on

1023
00:44:45.900 --> 00:44:46.440
the doctor.

1024
00:44:46.500 --> 00:44:50.760
So the doctor has a solar gun that he kills an ice warrior with

1025
00:44:50.760 --> 00:44:55.320
like he carries a big gun and he vaporises an ice warrior with a

1026
00:44:55.320 --> 00:44:55.980
big gun.

1027
00:44:56.039 --> 00:45:00.300
He diverts their fleet into solar orbit where they'll all die.

1028
00:45:00.360 --> 00:45:01.260
Do you know what I mean?

1029
00:45:01.320 --> 00:45:04.860
And that's the thing instead of meeting new aliens and that sort

1030
00:45:04.860 --> 00:45:08.039
of thing, the doctor's job in this story has become killing them.

1031
00:45:08.099 --> 00:45:12.119
And, you know, you very rarely see the doctor with a gun shooting

1032
00:45:12.119 --> 00:45:12.480
people.

1033
00:45:12.539 --> 00:45:16.800
Pirtually it kills an ogre on at some point, but I think that

1034
00:45:16.800 --> 00:45:19.920
really means it's time to say goodbye to the base under siege with

1035
00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:23.340
Trown because I think it just has a terrible impact on the

1036
00:45:23.340 --> 00:45:26.519
character of the doctor and just on the whole show's entire

1037
00:45:26.519 --> 00:45:27.000
outlook.

1038
00:45:27.059 --> 00:45:29.099
See, I have to disagree.

1039
00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:32.820
I do agree that this is a based on a scene story.

1040
00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:36.840
But I think that this is the halfway house between the trout and

1041
00:45:36.840 --> 00:45:40.019
base underseat model and the troubleshooters model that we're

1042
00:45:40.019 --> 00:45:42.480
going to get in the Pearl era because you have the base under

1043
00:45:42.480 --> 00:45:46.619
siege up on the moon. while down on Earth, you have a team of

1044
00:45:46.619 --> 00:45:49.559
scientists and eventually the doctor working on a solution down

1045
00:45:49.559 --> 00:45:49.800
there.

1046
00:45:49.860 --> 00:45:55.800
Now, as for the doctor's actions, You know what?

1047
00:45:55.860 --> 00:45:59.639
Yeah, he does get desperate, but it takes a lot for him to get

1048
00:45:59.639 --> 00:46:00.000
there.

1049
00:46:00.059 --> 00:46:04.920
You know, it takes the fungus to be spreading around earth, it

1050
00:46:04.920 --> 00:46:09.659
takes several deaths at least 5 team that personnel we see

1051
00:46:09.659 --> 00:46:10.320
killed.

1052
00:46:10.380 --> 00:46:13.260
I think we've seen 4 security guards killed.

1053
00:46:13.320 --> 00:46:16.559
So, you know, almost a dozen people we see die before the doctor

1054
00:46:16.559 --> 00:46:18.900
takes up a gun and takes a life.

1055
00:46:19.079 --> 00:46:24.179
And also that bit with him diverting the ships into the sun.

1056
00:46:24.239 --> 00:46:27.719
First of all, he hatches that plot with G. Kelly.

1057
00:46:27.780 --> 00:46:30.960
So it's a bit like the whole Peter Capaldi, I need you to decide

1058
00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:32.820
what to do about this Moon Eck thing.

1059
00:46:32.880 --> 00:46:36.840
But 2nd of all, when he goes up to tell the ice Warriors what he's

1060
00:46:36.840 --> 00:46:37.079
done.

1061
00:46:37.619 --> 00:46:40.320
He stands there waiting for death.

1062
00:46:40.380 --> 00:46:43.500
He is aware that he has done something horrible.

1063
00:46:43.559 --> 00:46:48.719
Like he takes no pride in what he did when Sly says, you destroy

1064
00:46:48.719 --> 00:46:49.320
Buckleet.

1065
00:46:49.380 --> 00:46:51.900
He just says, look, you're trying to destroy an entire world.

1066
00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:54.539
I had no choice and he just stands there.

1067
00:46:54.599 --> 00:46:55.679
He doesn't try to run away.

1068
00:46:55.739 --> 00:46:58.860
He doesn't go off on that big chase through all the mirrors like

1069
00:46:58.860 --> 00:47:00.000
he does earlier in the story.

1070
00:47:00.059 --> 00:47:01.199
He stands there.

1071
00:47:01.260 --> 00:47:03.420
He stands there waiting for his death.

1072
00:47:03.420 --> 00:47:06.659
And of course, who comes to his rescue, but the man whose

1073
00:47:06.659 --> 00:47:10.739
character is being further redemed and rebuilt story by story.

1074
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:16.139
Jamie throws himself into the middle of 3 ice Warriors to rescue

1075
00:47:16.139 --> 00:47:19.320
the doctor and you've got that beautiful moment at the end where

1076
00:47:19.320 --> 00:47:21.900
you know, they're blokes so they don't talk about their feelings

1077
00:47:21.960 --> 00:47:24.480
it's just very quite, thank you very much, Jimmy.

1078
00:47:24.539 --> 00:47:26.579
And back off to earth.

1079
00:47:26.639 --> 00:47:27.659
I think it's...

1080
00:47:27.659 --> 00:47:31.260
Very much an undeployed scene. certainly it's questionable

1081
00:47:31.260 --> 00:47:36.539
morality, but this doctor, Patrick, has always had a questionable

1082
00:47:36.539 --> 00:47:40.559
morality, but the key factor is he doesn't turn into Bruce Willis

1083
00:47:40.559 --> 00:47:41.219
because of this.

1084
00:47:41.280 --> 00:47:42.659
He doesn't go up there to gloat.

1085
00:47:42.780 --> 00:47:45.780
He goes up there to confess. that this is what he's done.

1086
00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:48.840
So, I just think they haven't kind of quite been the doctor's

1087
00:47:48.840 --> 00:47:49.619
morality down yet.

1088
00:47:49.679 --> 00:47:53.400
And so you get that, um, you know, the tenant has to go out and

1089
00:47:53.400 --> 00:47:56.880
give the son Tyrans a chance, you know, or, um, you know, the

1090
00:47:56.880 --> 00:47:59.460
doctor's never cruel nor cowardly, but all of that's in the

1091
00:47:59.460 --> 00:47:59.820
future.

1092
00:48:00.059 --> 00:48:03.719
I think that I think that, like I said, per tweet pulls a gun on

1093
00:48:03.719 --> 00:48:06.960
an ogre on him day of the Daleks and sort of vaporises him.

1094
00:48:07.019 --> 00:48:10.260
I just think that they haven't quite pinned it down.

1095
00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:13.679
So I don't mean, I just mean sort of narratively that you put the

1096
00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:18.719
doctor in a situation by having a story like this where the

1097
00:48:18.719 --> 00:48:21.420
solution to the story is to kill all of the aliens.

1098
00:48:21.480 --> 00:48:22.320
Do you know what I mean?

1099
00:48:22.380 --> 00:48:26.280
not to make them go away, not to trick them into blowing

1100
00:48:26.280 --> 00:48:30.900
themselves up, not to get them to learn a valuable lesson, but to

1101
00:48:30.900 --> 00:48:31.800
kind of kill them all.

1102
00:48:31.860 --> 00:48:36.000
It's really obvious that he's ploy here is or his plan here is

1103
00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:40.559
genocide. just because they're willing to do the same to earth.

1104
00:48:40.619 --> 00:48:44.280
As far as we know, they're very few ice warriors left, for a few

1105
00:48:44.280 --> 00:48:46.320
Martians left, but he's perfectly determined.

1106
00:48:46.380 --> 00:48:47.579
Is it article 12?

1107
00:48:47.639 --> 00:48:51.000
Article 18, Article 46, Article 7.

1108
00:48:51.480 --> 00:48:54.119
When did he start becoming like this?

1109
00:48:54.179 --> 00:48:56.039
Was he like this?

1110
00:48:56.099 --> 00:48:57.059
I didn't do that.

1111
00:48:57.119 --> 00:48:58.380
Middle of the Daleks.

1112
00:48:58.500 --> 00:49:01.320
Yeah, it's very much a new doctor thing, isn't it?

1113
00:49:01.380 --> 00:49:03.300
In the moon base, they...

1114
00:49:03.300 --> 00:49:04.619
What do they do?

1115
00:49:04.679 --> 00:49:06.960
They demagnetize them and fling them off into space.

1116
00:49:07.079 --> 00:49:09.300
They could say you could say happy there, probably.

1117
00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:13.079
Yeah, but you could say that the cybermen are not a racist such. a

1118
00:49:13.079 --> 00:49:15.420
demonised and dehumanised form.

1119
00:49:15.480 --> 00:49:17.340
Well, I think that's a bit ablest.

1120
00:49:17.460 --> 00:49:23.219
I mean, the thing is, Something that has happened several times

1121
00:49:23.219 --> 00:49:26.760
now with Patrick is, everyone wants to get to one, you know

1122
00:49:26.760 --> 00:49:28.679
everyone wants to get to escape. once.

1123
00:49:28.739 --> 00:49:32.099
Power of the daleks, he just destroys a few daleks.

1124
00:49:32.159 --> 00:49:34.800
Evil is just like, okay, no, you're messing with me again.

1125
00:49:34.860 --> 00:49:35.280
You're gone.

1126
00:49:35.579 --> 00:49:37.320
Moonbase.

1127
00:49:37.380 --> 00:49:39.000
Okay, I'll just fling you off into space.

1128
00:49:39.059 --> 00:49:40.619
Two, right, I am burying you.

1129
00:49:41.280 --> 00:49:43.079
Burning.

1130
00:49:43.139 --> 00:49:44.940
Great, great intelligence.

1131
00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:46.920
Jim Moriarty of Doctor Who.

1132
00:49:46.980 --> 00:49:48.960
Yeah, great intelligence. 1st time.

1133
00:49:49.019 --> 00:49:49.679
Okay, yeah, fine.

1134
00:49:49.739 --> 00:49:50.219
Leaf.

1135
00:49:50.280 --> 00:49:50.880
Please go away.

1136
00:49:50.940 --> 00:49:54.840
Second time, I am going to drain your intelligence and that's all

1137
00:49:54.840 --> 00:49:55.260
you are.

1138
00:49:55.320 --> 00:49:57.119
I'm going to drain who you are away.

1139
00:49:57.480 --> 00:49:59.400
Ice Warriors.

1140
00:49:59.460 --> 00:50:02.099
And we get it now as the default card.

1141
00:50:02.159 --> 00:50:05.039
It's why Matt Smith was just picking up on so much of that.

1142
00:50:05.099 --> 00:50:08.219
Really our 11th doctor. with so much now we're looking at the

1143
00:50:08.219 --> 00:50:12.239
underside of this doctor underneath his tortoise shell, his shiny

1144
00:50:12.239 --> 00:50:12.900
tortoise shell.

1145
00:50:12.960 --> 00:50:15.179
He's actually got, you know, dark underbelly.

1146
00:50:15.239 --> 00:50:18.780
And yeah, so it's interesting to see how this is informs so much

1147
00:50:18.780 --> 00:50:19.260
of later.

1148
00:50:19.320 --> 00:50:22.860
So I have a, I have a favourite production gap, and that is the

1149
00:50:22.860 --> 00:50:23.940
heating control.

1150
00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:26.400
It's very important.

1151
00:50:26.460 --> 00:50:29.099
They go up to a 100, they go 100%.

1152
00:50:29.099 --> 00:50:29.880
That sounds great.

1153
00:50:29.940 --> 00:50:31.380
Why would you have that?

1154
00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:32.880
Why?

1155
00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:37.500
And like they turn it up to 60 at some and no one's breaking a

1156
00:50:37.500 --> 00:50:37.860
sweat.

1157
00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:41.340
The ice rators are all falling over, but my people don't survive

1158
00:50:41.340 --> 00:50:45.900
very comfortably at 60 degrees centigrade for a particularly...

1159
00:50:45.960 --> 00:50:47.460
No, I just thought that was very strange.

1160
00:50:47.519 --> 00:50:50.639
And what happened if you leant on the, like, lent on the?

1161
00:50:50.699 --> 00:50:51.000
Yeah.

1162
00:50:51.059 --> 00:50:53.219
No, no, no, if you leant on the switch, you know, and

1163
00:50:53.219 --> 00:50:54.840
inadvertently pushed it to her.

1164
00:50:54.900 --> 00:50:55.739
Yeah, that's true.

1165
00:50:55.800 --> 00:50:59.039
Yeah, so I wouldn't have had, I wouldn't have had those controls

1166
00:50:59.039 --> 00:50:59.579
on me.

1167
00:50:59.699 --> 00:51:02.760
This is because the production team themselves are realising how

1168
00:51:02.760 --> 00:51:05.820
much they miss fluffing Billy. and so instead of letting the

1169
00:51:05.820 --> 00:51:06.480
doctor do it.

1170
00:51:06.539 --> 00:51:08.280
They just have everything else around him.

1171
00:51:08.340 --> 00:51:10.139
Well, from committing the same fact.

1172
00:51:10.199 --> 00:51:13.019
From a production standpoint, this is another one that was got

1173
00:51:13.019 --> 00:51:16.920
ready in a hurry because 1st of all, Brian Hales wrote them Lords

1174
00:51:16.920 --> 00:51:19.559
of the Red Planet, which has again been made by a big finish.

1175
00:51:19.619 --> 00:51:20.639
I'll have that.

1176
00:51:20.699 --> 00:51:25.260
Is that got the zombie sort of space thing where they, don't they

1177
00:51:25.260 --> 00:51:26.099
in the original story?

1178
00:51:26.159 --> 00:51:30.059
They were hypnotising or brainwashing the inhabitants.

1179
00:51:30.119 --> 00:51:33.000
Oh, no, no, that's some, that was another story he came up with

1180
00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:35.340
but no, this is essentially Genesis of the Ice Warriors.

1181
00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:36.900
Oh, interesting planet.

1182
00:51:36.960 --> 00:51:41.039
And it has my own trout in it as well, which is a nice touch.

1183
00:51:41.579 --> 00:51:45.000
But that was sort of deemed that it wouldn't work.

1184
00:51:45.059 --> 00:51:49.800
Then, um, Brian Hales said, okay, I'll write you the face stories

1185
00:51:49.800 --> 00:51:50.940
see the death bloody.

1186
00:51:51.000 --> 00:51:53.880
Fraser Hines' contract was up in, I think, episode four.

1187
00:51:53.940 --> 00:51:56.159
So they're going to replace it with a new character called Nick.

1188
00:51:56.219 --> 00:52:01.199
But then Courtney is when Patrick solidified that he was going to

1189
00:52:01.199 --> 00:52:04.139
leave, Fraser said, I'll stay on until Patrick goes.

1190
00:52:04.199 --> 00:52:07.500
So Terrence Stick said, oh, Brian, would you mind rewriting the

1191
00:52:07.500 --> 00:52:09.179
story, keep Jamie in it to the end.

1192
00:52:09.239 --> 00:52:10.500
Oh yeah, it's fine.

1193
00:52:10.559 --> 00:52:14.760
Then something else happened and Fraser might Fraser might have

1194
00:52:14.760 --> 00:52:17.699
been out, so he had to start rewriting the next story.

1195
00:52:17.760 --> 00:52:20.880
And then finally Fraser was back in and Brian said, look, I've got

1196
00:52:20.880 --> 00:52:22.260
other commissions I need to move on to.

1197
00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:26.400
And for that reason, and also for reasons of plot, apparently, the

1198
00:52:26.400 --> 00:52:28.619
last few of Brian Hale's episodes weren't too interesting.

1199
00:52:28.619 --> 00:52:31.320
The 1st 2 episodes are completely Brian Hales.

1200
00:52:31.380 --> 00:52:36.119
Episodes 3 through 6 are Terrence Sticks from a story by Brian

1201
00:52:36.119 --> 00:52:36.719
Hales.

1202
00:52:36.780 --> 00:52:37.739
It wasn't J.R.

1203
00:52:37.739 --> 00:52:40.019
Kelly going to be hypnotised in the original thing.

1204
00:52:40.079 --> 00:52:42.780
I think I read that Oh, I don't know, to be honest with you.

1205
00:52:42.780 --> 00:52:46.920
I, I, I, Yeah, yeah, because, you know, you would have weakened

1206
00:52:46.920 --> 00:52:51.659
her role and her specialness for, as you've said before, being a

1207
00:52:51.659 --> 00:52:54.000
female character in a 1960s piece of television.

1208
00:52:54.059 --> 00:52:57.539
But nobody, unlike Anne Travers, nobody comments what's a girl

1209
00:52:57.539 --> 00:52:59.760
like you doing in a place like this, they're just like, yeah

1210
00:52:59.760 --> 00:53:00.059
that's you.

1211
00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:02.760
Um, you know, you're J.

1212
00:53:02.760 --> 00:53:04.800
Kelly, you're wonderful and you're the best we've got.

1213
00:53:04.860 --> 00:53:09.000
She's the Megan Jones of Seeds of Death.

1214
00:53:09.059 --> 00:53:09.960
Yes, Indeed.

1215
00:53:19.019 --> 00:53:23.519
Okay, so that's why we have time for this podcast, and we only

1216
00:53:23.519 --> 00:53:26.699
have one more episode of the 1960s to go.

1217
00:53:26.760 --> 00:53:28.500
So...

1218
00:53:28.500 --> 00:53:29.579
My giggy art.

1219
00:53:30.059 --> 00:53:35.760
We'll be back next week, just after Christmas. to talk about the

1220
00:53:35.760 --> 00:53:40.619
space pirates and the war games, which is not only the end of

1221
00:53:40.619 --> 00:53:44.039
Patrick Trown's era, but it's the end of quite a lot and the

1222
00:53:44.039 --> 00:53:46.860
beginning of something else altogether. of the 1960s.

1223
00:53:46.980 --> 00:53:49.739
Yeah, it's the end of Doctor Zoo in the beginning of a completely

1224
00:53:49.739 --> 00:53:51.360
different show. interesting.

1225
00:53:51.420 --> 00:53:56.760
Don't forget, you can comment on our website for your chance to

1226
00:53:56.760 --> 00:53:58.199
win a target novelisation.

1227
00:53:58.260 --> 00:54:02.820
We'll be announcing 3 winners from our season 6 podcast and it's

1228
00:54:02.820 --> 00:54:04.139
the end of next week's podcast.

1229
00:54:04.199 --> 00:54:06.539
But until then, good night.

1230
00:54:06.599 --> 00:54:07.619
Good night.

1231
00:54:08.280 --> 00:54:08.699
Thank you.

1232
00:54:13.139 --> 00:54:17.099
You've been listening to Clutter entirely, Nathan Bodley, Brandon

1233
00:54:17.099 --> 00:54:18.420
Jones, and Richard Stone.

1234
00:54:18.480 --> 00:54:21.900
This episode, Sidegone Pro, is reported on Sunday, the 4th of

1235
00:54:21.900 --> 00:54:22.320
December.

1236
00:54:22.380 --> 00:54:24.719
The next episode will be released on December 28.

1237
00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:26.099
You can find us online.

1238
00:54:26.099 --> 00:54:29.039
It's Centre Entirety.com, find your entire show on Facebook and

1239
00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:31.380
iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter.

1240
00:54:31.440 --> 00:54:33.960
At any notice that new scripts don't have many terribly busy

1241
00:54:33.960 --> 00:54:34.380
lines.

1242
00:54:34.440 --> 00:54:35.699
It turns out at the end of our podcast.

1243
00:54:39.000 --> 00:54:43.260
Another bleeping humanoid race and another bleeping quarry.

1244
00:54:43.320 --> 00:54:44.280
I do that thing.

1245
00:54:44.639 --> 00:54:48.539
Just swallow that and just...

1246
00:54:48.599 --> 00:54:49.860
Yes, that'll be in the end.

1247
00:54:50.340 --> 00:54:53.699
Swallow that and do it again, such time, so hard.