WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:33:55

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Hello and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety.

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The only Doctor Who podcast you can't kill because we're all geniuses.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm not.

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And we had a special guest for this episode of the podcast.

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Rod, my partner, whose comments have often made into the podcast, is actually sitting here in the room, but he's just flicking these and I don't think he's going to say anything unless he wants to touch at some point be for victory today.

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And he's also made us some lovely, lovely croton head apple pies.

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Delicious. which we've already devoured half of.

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So without any further ado.

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We'll go to the founder of that particular beast with the crotons.

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Yeah, yeah, it's a macro chair.

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Oh, sorry, no, it's face of evil, no, it's a mysterious planet.

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No, it's what is it again?

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It's the crotons and it's the 1st script by Robert Holmes.

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And also the 1st TV appearance of Sir Philip Maddock.

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As Elek.

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We already owned him though, didn't we?

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Because he's playing Dr. David Keel in an exciting adventure with the Daleks and he would turncoat, Smiley's people thing in a, you know, white Mac, isn't he?

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His fingers Alex.

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Broccoli.

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Naughty films.

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Yes. as cubby broccoli.

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That's right.

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That's right. be broccoli.

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Don't eat your broccoli.

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That's right.

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Um, So the protons...

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And by the way, the best thing in that film.

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Other than Eileen Moy.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Thank you.

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And he's got to be one of the best things in this, I think.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I mean, the coats, though, that's not stretching it, is it?

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too far?

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You can be mean about this story.

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I know this one doesn't have a great reputation.

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But you've got to sort of consider the factors around it.

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It was commissioned to replace a script that fell through, namely the prison in space.

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Yeah, you know, that one was remade by the big finish.

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Yeah, and what's the big finish one like?

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The big finish one just doesn't pull any punches.

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It doesn't attempt to modernise it.

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It's still as ridiculously cancer.

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The prisoning space, whatever it was.

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Is that about space age suffragettes where Zoe is stridently feminist and get this?

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Jamie has to beat it out of her with smacks until she wakes up from the spell of trying to...

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What the hell?

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It's the wormer turned from...

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Yeah, it's male something.

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It is too Bar castle.

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And Joanna Dawes as the chief controller.

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But this wasn't a comedy?

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Was it a comedy?

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It was a comedy.

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It wasn't a comedy.

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Did anyone laugh?

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No.

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Not on the BBC off.

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Well, cancel it.

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Not in the BBC office.

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This is how the crotons came about.

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Nathan and I were actually at a convention yesterday.

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Well, the times three, which had Terrence Hicks.

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I was in a march to try and stop 6 lane highways going through this very suburb.

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Yeah, so he was doing the bit.

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You might think the environment's important because we had adopted the convention.

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And as Terrence said, what happened was he was the junior assistant undercredited script editor at the time and he worked jolly hard on it too.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And what happened was he had found this script by Bob Holmes, which had originally been sent in for William Hart, Jackie Lane, Peter Purpose.

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That's right.

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It was a script, as the space trap, and had just been sort of shoved down the back of the filing cabinet.

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And anyway, he said to Sherwin and Bryant, look, you know, I'd really like to develop this. to which Sherman and Brian said, oh, no, no, we've got a full slate.

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We can't possibly have any other stories.

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And Terence said, well, how about I develop it as a backup?

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And they're like, fine, but you've got to do all your other work as well.

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So he worked with Robert Holmes and developed it.

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David Maloney, the director, got the scripts for the prison in space, read them, and pretty much said to Sherman Bryant, I can't make this.

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It's terrible.

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And so panic stations and Terence sort of walks in like James Bond says, actually, I have a script just here.

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And David Maloney goes, this is a perfectly acceptable adventure.

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Sorry let's do this.

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It's much more political in the 1st draft, isn't it?

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It's the space track.

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It's much more about student uprising and rebellion, which you get a little bit of still in the final show.

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Should we talk about what this is actually about if there's possibly anyone who's never seen it?

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Absolutely.

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So you have this spaceship which crashed years and years and years ago, 1568 something years ago.

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I think it was 67.

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No, you can actually work that out.

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Just have a look in the military somewhere.

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I'll explain that.

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Um, The humanoid life forms living there.

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Around this site.

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Around this site, then sort of develop their town around this site and just pension off for terrible togas.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Well, we, you know, we all go through that phase.

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It was a bit like the 80s perm.

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I know I went through mine.

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Just think that had some sort of alien, incursive, reducting, intelligent quality to making us do shell suits in 1989.

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There's nothing intelligent about...

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We'll get to the seats of death next.

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What these aliens do is they need hybrine. hy brain.

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So there were four.

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There were 4 of these things flying the ship and 2 were killed in their wall with the dominatrixes and fighting.

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Actually, that's a wonder.

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It would make more sense actually, wouldn't it?

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Because it would be the rutens.

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Um, the root and they, and what's nice about this is they live in this sort of soup, this slurry of 7-Eleven slurpee stuff until until you add the right sort of energy to them and then they form a body.

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There was a nice thing in the notes.

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I found that form you see because, okay, it's a budget thing, but it's nice.

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The form you see when they're on this planet, which seems to have a much, um, yes, to be a higher gravity.

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That's higher gravity.

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Yeah, because they're buildings that they make the people build, the doctor comics when he steps out of the Tartar.

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So they look like they're from a much lower gravity.

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Because there's funny little squat, zigarettes.

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So it kind of makes sense.

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And they also have sort of trouble with their arms and attaching things to them because they're built exactly like the B-line robot from lost in space, but with nice zarovsky crystal cut edges to them.

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But they um...

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But yeah, this is this squat invasion form.

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And I like to think that in their natural, in a more natural state.

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They're a castrians.

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Because the crystamine, of course, it's Eldra.

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Eldra's people.

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And how beautiful if we'd actually had the bit of money and foresight.

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Because the thing that lets this down is not really the base story, which everyone thought was interesting enough, you know, to use and invest time in.

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And I don't think it holds up.

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It's odd.

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It's not bad and it's not fantastically good.

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It's just surprisingly not what you expect to be watching at this time.

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I think this season sort of goes out of its way to vary itself and perhaps in reaction to season five.

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So each story in season 6 is sort of quite distinct.

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But in fact, what I find surprising is how much it has in common with the dominators.

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So we're on a planet's realised with a quarry, which was new and exciting in the savages, but is now a sort of hoary old trope beside this point.

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As one put it at the time, another bleeping humanoid race in another bleeping quarry.

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Yeah, well, I mean, that's Leap himself, does he?

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I'll solve this.

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It's 3 PG.

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And, you know, like the like the people on the whatever planet, the dominate, oh, Dunkus.

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There you go.

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No, no, on the planet Dolcus.

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They're sort of terribly wet and here on the planet of the Gonds.

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They're sort of very wet. 2 aliens in a spaceship take over the entire planet, you know.

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Chin Chin Chin.

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But more importantly, the big difference is that there's a generational political problem.

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So with the Dolphins, all of the old people are pacifists and you've got Kali who wants to fight things.

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Here, you've got a group of students who are being fed information by the sort of mysterious machines that they don't sort of understand.

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And, you know, they're rebelling against that.

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So what we have here.

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It's like the dominators only.

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It's kind of on the right side of history, in a sense.

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The sympathy of dominators we observed was with, you know, the people prosecuting the Vietnam War, you know, it was an anti-anti-war story.

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Because the students, you know, we just talked about the invasion of Czechoslovakia, and we've talked about the, the tanks in Prague, and we've talked about the kids in Paris, learning down the universities, and but also the stuff that was happening on TV.

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You know that also at this time, Harold Wilson later claimed to have you some greatest triumph as prime minister in the UK was the opening university program.

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So that through television and radio, you could enrol in remotely through university and learn or speed learn.

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But it was also the red brick uni thing of a different style, which I think has gone out of schools, but we certainly went through it in the 70s and 80s.

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And it's just info dumping of facts that you purge out again at the end of the year in an essay, that you'll never use a goon.

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I've got something like over 95% for migration war, crashing Thracian war essay when I have to do that in year 11 because I don't, I mean, that's the kind of thing that just really appeals to Doctor Who phones.

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But for the rest of the world, it must have been miserable.

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If you don't have a fanboy head to exams like that.

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And so both of those, like both stories have students in them, don't they?

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Remember, it's a group of students going to the museum on Dolcas and the island of death.

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And there's that terrible young female student who just recites all these fags with a candour without understanding them.

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And now here we have, she gets steam punched, doesn't she?

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She goes through the doors. gets nozzled.

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Well, they're being forced to in facts and so they smash the place up.

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Yeah, I mean, this is absolutely the anti-dominated.

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If Innasloyd commissioned the dominators going, oh, what a wonderful idea.

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Let's show these passivists who what the world is really like.

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This is direct, everyone's saying, actually, no, you can be anti-violence, but still fight for your freedom and fight for what you believe in.

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And what I find very interesting about this is, you know, at a time where we've just come out of the year where the Doctor Who Monsters are the monsters.

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And they exist purely to get you.

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All the crotons want is to be able to take off again.

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They're not inherently evil.

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You know, certainly their methods are... that kind of thing invasive Western culture heal a bunch of people.

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They do call a bunch of people.

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They don't kill a bunch of people just to kill a bunch of people.

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Unlike the Doctor Who monsters of last season.

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Or the dominators who do it just because they're really grumpy or they've just had a marital tiff in each other.

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Exactly, exactly.

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And also you've got these student characters. who, you know, they want to smash up the hall, but none of them try to smash off the croton who comes out.

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Like the Croton just zaps them and they go.

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So at the same time, they're not an inherently violent force, but they become violent to fight for their freedom.

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And eventually their solution is found, not in brute force, the way it is in the dominators, and certainly not, but doctor going, bugger it, I'll do it myself, as in the dominators.

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But the doctor kind of goes, this is the knowledge you need to get rid of them.

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This is the knowledge that was never given to you.

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Now you do something with that.

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I think it would have been a lot more powerful as a Billy story.

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Can you imagine fluffing billious, Timothy Leary, because they're using acid to destroy...

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Girl dropping acid to destroy the status quo.

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It's all about the foundation.

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There is a lot, though, isn't there?

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You know, that was a mood of the time.

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I think this would have been a really good Billy story.

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Now, I think it has a lot in common with the space music.

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Yeah, yeah.

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But it's a more active doctor.

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Yeah, with young people, you know, trying.

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And they were trying to get him to be a mod to every, you know, which Modro dad, yeah.

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Something else that really comes to the fore here that he would become famous for is Robert Holmes's characterisation.

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Yeah, it's the characters that save this, isn't it?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So we've already mentioned Philip Maddock.

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We've already mentioned Philip Maticus ELEC.

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We've got James Kane Crossback, yeah, duck facing James Kane Cross is back for above Reign of Terror, where he played Le Maitre.

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He's now playing Bieta.

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Beta, Beta.

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Beta.

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Beta.

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I know his sidebones and the pronunciation change between scenes.

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There's a lot of that that's happening in this.

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Yeah, because there was a big 6 week breakoff, wasn't there, a 5 week break between Patty running from one thing to ending up in the learning hall and he suddenly got swapping these massive muttons on the side. and we'll have more sideburn trouble next door, as well.

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We will.

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Really well served by this is Fraser Hines.

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Last season, you commented on this, Nathan.

217
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Jamie sort of became just the every man.

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He became like Ian.

219
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But whereas Ian would have a general knowledge of all different situations.

220
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Jamie is meant to have very specified knowledge of his time.

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And the Crotons manages to make him intelligent and resourceful, but also play on the fact that, unlike Zoe, his mind is untrained.

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Zoe is given a similar sort of character development.

223
00:13:38.340 --> 00:13:44.399
She's able to use her computer knowledge, and of course, it leads to that wonderful line of Zoe, something of a genius.

224
00:13:44.460 --> 00:13:46.080
It can be rather irritating at times.

225
00:13:46.139 --> 00:13:48.360
She beats the doctor in the test.

226
00:13:48.419 --> 00:13:51.899
She actually says to the doctor that he's almost as clever as me.

227
00:13:51.960 --> 00:13:52.919
Yes, yeah.

228
00:13:52.980 --> 00:13:59.100
And it's just wonderful character interplay, which would soon become a byword behind.

229
00:13:59.159 --> 00:14:03.720
Where the characterisation suffers is in the character of Vana.

230
00:14:04.019 --> 00:14:13.919
And this is something that the wife in space picks up a fair bit in that Robert Holmes doesn't seem to be so good at cooking.

231
00:14:13.980 --> 00:14:18.539
She's not given a lot of time on screen either, is she, before she turns into a big aubergine?

232
00:14:18.539 --> 00:14:21.659
Yeah, she does. which is sort of unconscious for a fair amount of it.

233
00:14:22.139 --> 00:14:24.120
She does, but it's lazy.

234
00:14:24.179 --> 00:14:28.080
But I guess, you know, the girls were there to squeal and look lovely.

235
00:14:28.139 --> 00:14:34.559
So there are, oh, there's Madeline disagree, I guess, coming up in space pirates and there's Meg Seely.

236
00:14:34.679 --> 00:14:37.860
I'm just trying to think of women in future homes stories.

237
00:14:37.980 --> 00:14:39.480
There's none in power of control.

238
00:14:39.539 --> 00:14:45.059
It's really weird because when he writes women well, particularly he usually writes The Companion very well.

239
00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:47.100
They're really great.

240
00:14:47.159 --> 00:14:49.860
Yeah, but other times...

241
00:14:49.919 --> 00:14:54.120
Other times they're just cyphers or they've got one line or they're not even present.

242
00:14:54.179 --> 00:15:03.120
It's it's really old and this is a very strange start for him, but as we'll discuss next time, he does kind of start to make up for it with Madeline, secret.

243
00:15:03.179 --> 00:15:23.639
I think the big thing that starts here that you can see right from the beginning and something that becomes a staple of homes as whole outlook on the program. something that really influences the program going forward. is that the doctor has to be more fun and funny than the villains, you know, there's 2 fantastic scenes between him and Zoe.

244
00:15:23.700 --> 00:15:34.679
There's the one we alluded to earlier in the learning hall where it's his turn to use the learning machine and he keeps getting flustered and getting it wrong and and, you know, don't help me.

245
00:15:34.740 --> 00:15:37.500
No, no, what do I do here, you know, and he sort of terribly funny.

246
00:15:37.559 --> 00:15:42.419
And then there's the other scene when they're in the dinotrope, which is the name of the Croton spaceship.

247
00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:48.480
And they have to put the helmets on because they're the 2 high brains and they're going to take off.

248
00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:57.899
And the doctor's, you know, putting the, putting the headset on, you know, the wrong way round and picking an argument about where to stand and, you know, so he goes, oh, I wanted to stand there.

249
00:15:57.960 --> 00:15:59.460
Oh, I'm so sorry, my dear.

250
00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:01.379
And like they're talking about...

251
00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:10.019
And and like the doctor in a home script tends to be fun and funny and the villains here.

252
00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:11.940
They're not just sort of stupid crystals or anything.

253
00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:13.919
They go on about procedure.

254
00:16:13.980 --> 00:16:17.039
Everything that they do is informed by the procedure.

255
00:16:17.100 --> 00:16:18.659
We don't know what that is, you know what I mean?

256
00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:22.740
But, um, and so they're hide bound and rule bound.

257
00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:35.580
And that's the big theme of, um, of Holmes's take on Doctor Who, that, um, the enemies are humourless and rule bound and conservative.

258
00:16:35.639 --> 00:16:38.039
I mean, Holmes himself is sort of politically conservative.

259
00:16:38.100 --> 00:16:46.139
And you can see it in the character of E-lech. is, you know, the person who takes the youth rebellion and turns it into something a bit, you know, evil.

260
00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:47.460
You know, there's a conservative.

261
00:16:47.519 --> 00:17:11.759
But so Holmes is kind of conservative and he's sort of known to be politically conservative, but his enemies in these stories are always the people who stick by the rules, the people who are beholden to procedure, and the thing the doctor comes is the thing the doctor does, rather is he comes in and sort of breaks that up and does that by being more fun and funny than the villains he's fighting against.

262
00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:22.500
Absolutely. what you were both talking about earlier with the instructional model of teaching, the info dump model of teaching, you know, you follow the textbook and you'll be fine.

263
00:17:22.619 --> 00:17:25.319
Well, the doctor doesn't follow the textbook.

264
00:17:25.380 --> 00:17:28.440
The doctor can't even find the textbook because he's just thrown it over his shoulder.

265
00:17:28.500 --> 00:17:29.279
Oh wait, no, I needed that.

266
00:17:29.339 --> 00:17:30.299
You know.

267
00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:41.880
And straight away that becomes a great interest to the gods who are kind of going, oh no, you know, I don't want to. take all these tests to see if I'm ready to go inside the Dinotrope.

268
00:17:41.940 --> 00:17:50.460
The big thing is the discovery that, um, Abu Gond and blah, blah, Gond have been killed. you know, the chosen ones.

269
00:17:50.519 --> 00:17:51.119
What are they called?

270
00:17:51.180 --> 00:17:52.140
Are they called chosen ones?

271
00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:53.160
The companions.

272
00:17:53.220 --> 00:17:55.019
The companions of the Crotons?

273
00:17:55.079 --> 00:17:55.859
The croton.

274
00:17:55.920 --> 00:18:04.799
What we discover is that the companions of the crotons are all being killed and that revelation is sort of irrefusable and that's the thing that, you know, sets everything in motion.

275
00:18:04.859 --> 00:18:09.299
And it's no wonder everyone's surprised by it because evolutionary wise, it's completely pants.

276
00:18:09.420 --> 00:18:23.099
If you're trying to, look, what I guess from this is they're trying to find a couple of guns or builds, I don't know, the race up so that they can get a couple of kids who are smart enough to join them on their four-sided console and fly out of there.

277
00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:30.779
Why would you denude the gene pool by knocking off everyone when they seem to just recover after a certain amount of time anyway?

278
00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:31.440
Yes.

279
00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:38.519
Except for Vana, who's just stuck being red haired or open haired and a bit, you know, ex-go-go dancer for the rest of the episode.

280
00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:41.160
Quaalude and Nelly's being off the place.

281
00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:46.440
It's just, it's really stupid. really silly.

282
00:18:46.500 --> 00:18:50.279
Select all the smartest people and kill them. and kill them.

283
00:18:50.339 --> 00:18:53.039
It sounds more like a Murdoch program.

284
00:18:53.099 --> 00:18:58.920
You know, if they were mining the area for the micro and the silicone that's around. you could.

285
00:18:58.980 --> 00:19:01.920
Which would kind of think they would be exactly yeah, but they're...

286
00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:02.819
I know they're feeding.

287
00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:06.240
They obviously feeding assistance with the lower intelligence system that they're getting.

288
00:19:06.299 --> 00:19:09.059
So they're keeping it keeping the system doubling over, but they're not.

289
00:19:09.059 --> 00:19:10.680
No, Eldred wouldn't have done this.

290
00:19:10.740 --> 00:19:12.599
No, they just keep much cleverer.

291
00:19:12.660 --> 00:19:13.259
That's right.

292
00:19:13.380 --> 00:19:15.720
She was actually the 1st missy.

293
00:19:15.779 --> 00:19:16.920
Eldro.

294
00:19:16.980 --> 00:19:19.680
Yes, the sex changing Doctor Who.

295
00:19:19.740 --> 00:19:21.059
Yeah, we own her.

296
00:19:24.119 --> 00:19:25.440
It's got the 1st spot joke.

297
00:19:25.500 --> 00:19:38.099
I know you love aliens of London and World War 3 and all the rest of it, but honestly, as soon as they're good on this planet, it's got to ruling on them and sulphur and it's the planet of the fart bombs.

298
00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:43.079
Well, you take Bob Homes is quite famous for our jokes and power crawl. the biggest one.

299
00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:43.859
Do you know what I mean?

300
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:45.420
They're packaging up methane.

301
00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:47.339
Wonder where this methane comes from.

302
00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:49.559
And then they discover it's Kroll's farm.

303
00:19:49.619 --> 00:19:55.140
And that's what then Tom says to the Mighty Hargore or Philomatic.

304
00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:58.680
Well, have you seen I'm not surprised you haven't seen Raman or do you have you seen Raman?

305
00:19:58.740 --> 00:20:00.059
She's not the easiest of guests.

306
00:20:00.180 --> 00:20:04.200
I think they're perhaps fart jokes going all the way through.

307
00:20:04.980 --> 00:20:10.319
So can we talk a lot about Philip Maddock when the war games comes out?

308
00:20:10.380 --> 00:20:11.279
I think we're going to have to.

309
00:20:11.339 --> 00:20:13.920
Yeah, because he's... amazing.

310
00:20:13.980 --> 00:20:16.319
I don't know what else we can say about this.

311
00:20:16.380 --> 00:20:25.259
It's more interesting a game for what it alludes to, which is revolution and stuff that was going on in the press at the time.

312
00:20:25.319 --> 00:20:27.180
But you can get why it's there.

313
00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:30.660
It fits really nicely in between the invasion and what's just about to come up.

314
00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:40.799
Sitting on its own as it did in the early 80s before you were with us, Brendan, but then some of us were, you know, got pirate copies of the 5 faces of the Doctor Who.

315
00:20:40.859 --> 00:20:44.640
This was the one used to show us what the trout Nero was like.

316
00:20:44.700 --> 00:20:46.980
And for most people, they hadn't seen us in 69.

317
00:20:47.220 --> 00:20:48.059
What?

318
00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:48.660
Is that what it was like?

319
00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:49.859
It's not my memory of what it was.

320
00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:51.480
No, because it's completely atypical.

321
00:20:51.539 --> 00:20:58.200
But the thing is, it was the only completely extant small part of that was available on the 5 faces of Doctor Who was all 4 part ones.

322
00:20:58.259 --> 00:21:07.259
And then we had the experience that we talked about last time in 1986 of seeing the crotons and the mind robber, which were the only ones that they repeated.

323
00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:12.059
So, yeah, we've known it for a long time, but it is massively atypical.

324
00:21:12.119 --> 00:21:23.160
And it is partly, I think, because season 6 is breaking away from that season 5, let's do the same thing every week, but only slightly better each time, perhaps, and they're doing crazy things.

325
00:21:23.220 --> 00:21:29.039
I mean, we did just discuss the mind growber, you know, it's a very strange season.

326
00:21:29.099 --> 00:21:34.440
I've got to get out of this is that it's nowhere near as bad as I remember it being, which is...

327
00:21:34.619 --> 00:21:36.539
No, no, it isn't.

328
00:21:36.599 --> 00:21:38.700
I actually didn't didn't not enjoy it.

329
00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:40.680
And there are parts I really did enjoy watching it again.

330
00:21:40.740 --> 00:21:45.900
I mean, even if its message is not 100% coming through loud and clear.

331
00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:54.599
I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing because the one thing worse than the message of a story not coming through clearly is it being hit home with a sledgehammer.

332
00:21:54.660 --> 00:21:57.420
Hello, season one of Star Trek and Next Generation.

333
00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:04.859
But what you have here, as well as that message, you've got a pretty solid action adventure story.

334
00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:09.960
You know, within 10 minutes of episode one, Jamie's got into a fight because he's JB, he gets into a fight.

335
00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:13.920
But it just, it clicks along at a fair pace.

336
00:22:13.980 --> 00:22:14.759
It's never boring.

337
00:22:14.819 --> 00:22:15.720
It's never dull.

338
00:22:15.779 --> 00:22:17.279
The plot hangs together, it makes sense.

339
00:22:17.339 --> 00:22:19.559
Yeah, at its worst.

340
00:22:19.619 --> 00:22:22.920
It's a great story to put on while you're doing the ironing.

341
00:22:22.980 --> 00:22:25.500
We're doing a pertuie era early next year.

342
00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:27.359
That's how I feel about that, general.

343
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:29.579
Well, you do it in the eye.

344
00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:29.940
Yeah.

345
00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:37.500
You can't iron bills, it crushes the pile.

346
00:22:38.460 --> 00:22:43.440
And from piles to the moon, we're often seeds of death.

347
00:22:52.500 --> 00:23:03.660
So I complained loudly and bitterly over and over again to whoever would listen at that season 5 was terribly samey, and it was that sort of base under siege thing.

348
00:23:03.720 --> 00:23:15.599
And that's what we have here, we do have, I think, the very last or maybe the 2nd last trout and base under siege story, and the last classic monster story of the 60s.

349
00:23:15.660 --> 00:23:17.039
It's a lot of lasts in this.

350
00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:25.740
So we've got the we've got the ice warriors that probably is for no other reason than to be a monster in a base under siege story.

351
00:23:25.859 --> 00:23:28.019
And of course, they keep both builders in business.

352
00:23:28.140 --> 00:23:32.099
But they make Gia Kelly skips in that outfit look tame.

353
00:23:32.460 --> 00:23:36.180
They have such embarrassing, don't they?

354
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:38.400
Louise Pleasure is a lovely actress.

355
00:23:38.460 --> 00:23:39.720
No, it wasn't.

356
00:23:39.779 --> 00:23:41.400
Very unkind.

357
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:45.599
And so they're in vain the moon as usual.

358
00:23:45.660 --> 00:23:47.220
That's another favourite place.

359
00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:48.359
Is that a metaphor?

360
00:23:48.420 --> 00:23:49.799
Well, it's the...

361
00:23:49.799 --> 00:23:53.640
It's another famous location of a base under siege.

362
00:23:53.700 --> 00:23:56.940
And I think at one point in the dialogue, the moon base on the moon is called Moonbase 2.

363
00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:03.960
And you have to think that Moonbase one is the one with Benoit and Hopson and things that got attacked by Versideman that one time.

364
00:24:04.019 --> 00:24:09.960
We have a base commander, Radnall, who will go on to play another base commander in Tom Baker's 1st season.

365
00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:11.880
He's.

366
00:24:11.940 --> 00:24:15.119
He's in the sidemen story in that.

367
00:24:16.380 --> 00:24:24.299
And again, we've got a high concept future world where something big has happened and the world has sort of been changed.

368
00:24:24.359 --> 00:24:32.759
So in this case, the huge, fabulous, sexy technology of the era, which is, you know, rocketry and space technology.

369
00:24:32.819 --> 00:24:36.779
Remember, we're, you know, months away from the moon landing.

370
00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:38.039
Yeah, about 4 or 5 months.

371
00:24:38.099 --> 00:24:39.299
It wasn't very long at all.

372
00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:43.920
And the early missions had all been televised, so people were aware, you know, we're going to the moon.

373
00:24:43.980 --> 00:24:51.180
Apollo 8 had just circumnavigated the equator of the moon as this was going out.

374
00:24:51.240 --> 00:24:53.160
And you can see that.

375
00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:55.799
So we're getting our 1st shots of the dark side of the moon.

376
00:24:55.799 --> 00:25:10.319
And the opening credits, you know, like as happened sometimes in the in the trout near and in the 1st season of perchway, you've got a special bit after the closing credits end for the story title in the episode.

377
00:25:10.380 --> 00:25:18.240
And here you've got model shots of the moon and the earth seen from space and all of those things that, you know, that were huge at the time.

378
00:25:18.299 --> 00:25:24.839
And the audacious thing is this is a world where everyone's bored with that stuff where that stuff is obsolete.

379
00:25:24.900 --> 00:25:26.759
It's such an English show.

380
00:25:26.819 --> 00:25:37.140
Thank you for raising that up because you've got a female based commander who nobody comments on being in that role, whereas in Star Trek, as you say at the time, it would have been such a big deal.

381
00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:40.319
It's a lady person, doing a lady job.

382
00:25:40.380 --> 00:25:41.039
Can I imagine?

383
00:25:41.819 --> 00:25:48.960
The only Star Trek episode that I was alive on broadcast is Turnabout Intruder, which was the final episode.

384
00:25:49.019 --> 00:25:50.759
I was born just before it.

385
00:25:50.759 --> 00:25:55.259
And that final episode has a woman called Janice Leicester.

386
00:25:55.319 --> 00:25:56.099
Janice Lester.

387
00:25:56.099 --> 00:26:09.900
She finds a special archeological artefact that can swap bodies and she swaps bodies with Captain Kirk so that she can become a Starfleet commander because women weren't allowed to command spaceships in the 23rd century.

388
00:26:10.500 --> 00:26:26.519
That line has created so much trouble in Star Trek law because it's like Gene Roddenbury wouldn't have written that because of course Gene Roddenbury wanted an H.L. Barrett to be in charge of the ship whenever Jeffrey Hunter wasn't there. right, way back.

389
00:26:26.579 --> 00:26:27.420
And that's the thing.

390
00:26:27.480 --> 00:26:33.299
Her line is slightly ambiguous in that it's your world of starship captain doesn't admit women.

391
00:26:33.299 --> 00:26:37.500
And what some people have taken that to mean is several times.

392
00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:41.160
Kirk laments that he can't marry because he's married to his ship.

393
00:26:41.220 --> 00:26:42.660
They come with a girl.

394
00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:45.420
Although he put his best efforts in.

395
00:26:45.480 --> 00:26:49.380
Yeah, actually, with the gusset and the wig later on, yes.

396
00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:54.539
He minces around the ship when Janice possesses his body in the most remarkable way.

397
00:26:54.599 --> 00:27:04.380
It's really something spectacular Look, I mean, that's just desperate recons from a fan of that has an actual canon where they have to harmonise things.

398
00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:05.460
Yeah, that's a nice thing.

399
00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:06.539
We took no such thing.

400
00:27:06.599 --> 00:27:10.079
Yeah, it's amazing that I can't wait till we get into Dalek History podcast.

401
00:27:10.140 --> 00:27:11.039
What are we doing that one?

402
00:27:11.099 --> 00:27:22.799
It is amazing. you're right, Nathan, that at that time that Star Trek was going, Women can't be in charge of starships and then having a plot where a woman gets in charge of a starship and goes hysterical.

403
00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:27.119
We have Gia Kelly.

404
00:27:27.180 --> 00:27:31.619
I'm saying that I'm saying that presentation is a bad thing.

405
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:33.720
Sorry, Richard's eyes, it was ping-pong balls.

406
00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:40.740
On the other side of the pond, we have Gia Kelly as the only person who knows how team at works.

407
00:27:40.859 --> 00:27:43.380
He just runs circles around everywhere.

408
00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:44.880
She's so spectacular.

409
00:27:44.940 --> 00:27:56.339
And there's a moment where she has to go to the moon, like Pat and Jamie and Zoe are going to the moon by rocket, but she actually gets there before them because Team Adam sort of repaired enough for her to be able to do that.

410
00:27:56.400 --> 00:27:58.980
And Radner says, no, no, you can't go.

411
00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:04.319
And I expected his next line to be something about how it was too dangerous for a lady or something like that.

412
00:28:04.380 --> 00:28:10.140
But you can't go because you're completely indispensable and we can't do without you here.

413
00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:14.400
And she's just so superbly confident and so fantastic.

414
00:28:15.180 --> 00:28:24.539
Miss Garrett, I think we liked in the Ice Warriors last year, which was Brian Hale's previous story, but Gia Kelly runs rings around her.

415
00:28:24.599 --> 00:28:26.339
I think she's absolutely superb.

416
00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:43.500
Brian Hales does actually do quite interesting things with gender in his scripts because in the Ice Warriors, you had Penley in store, who were very much written in a romantic or anti-romantic, old complaining married couple kind of way.

417
00:28:43.559 --> 00:28:48.000
And normally the ice warriors come as a complaining married couple too, then.

418
00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:48.420
That's true.

419
00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:49.140
That's very true.

420
00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:50.099
It just depends.

421
00:28:50.220 --> 00:28:52.500
It depends on the temperature of their eggs when they're born.

422
00:28:52.619 --> 00:28:54.960
You know, you've got you've got Miss Kelly here.

423
00:28:55.019 --> 00:29:05.519
You've got Alpha Centauri, who is neither male nor female later on, and you've got Queen Falira, who has terrible trouble being a woman later on, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

424
00:29:05.579 --> 00:29:10.200
I just find it very interesting that Brian Hales does play with gender in his scripts.

425
00:29:10.259 --> 00:29:13.440
Albert in a very muted way.

426
00:29:13.500 --> 00:29:18.779
But, you know, for 60s and 70s, it is quite notable.

427
00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:24.299
Again, we have the theme of science versus technology and you talked about store a little bit earlier.

428
00:29:24.359 --> 00:29:30.720
You remember that stores kind of represented the complete rejection of technology in the ice warriors.

429
00:29:30.779 --> 00:29:34.380
Do you remember he was the Scotsman in sort of bear skins and things?

430
00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:44.279
Um, and the whole thing was opposition to having the computer run your life and, you know, the big decision that's made at the end is to go with human instinct and reject computer.

431
00:29:44.339 --> 00:29:49.799
What I like about this is this is also about technology, old technology versus new technology.

432
00:29:49.859 --> 00:29:54.420
Um, the team at, which seems to be a terribly brittle system.

433
00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:55.259
Do you know what I mean?

434
00:29:55.319 --> 00:29:56.400
The moment something goes wrong.

435
00:29:56.460 --> 00:29:58.980
Everyone is days away from starving.

436
00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:01.500
I mean, literally days away from so.

437
00:30:01.559 --> 00:30:07.319
No one has a pantry anymore because they've just got a phone block. phone box on the corner that's necessary for me.

438
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:08.519
Every meal.

439
00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:12.539
That's the most dissolving and uninteresting form of transmitting that's ever been.

440
00:30:12.599 --> 00:30:14.160
You know it's Doctor Who and they just flip.

441
00:30:14.220 --> 00:30:16.079
Yeah, there's no roll back in me.

442
00:30:16.140 --> 00:30:20.640
I mean, what that reminds me of is the machine stops by EM Forster.

443
00:30:20.700 --> 00:30:34.559
And if you haven't read it, I do recommend it, where you have everyone is living in a little sort of honeycomb like cell and hardly anyone ever goes away and leaves to see other people because they can get them on the busy screen.

444
00:30:34.619 --> 00:30:35.880
They can talk to them that way.

445
00:30:35.940 --> 00:30:37.259
Oh, that's grind.

446
00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:40.319
They get all... they get all their food delivered to them.

447
00:30:40.380 --> 00:30:42.000
That's their WWW.

448
00:30:42.059 --> 00:30:43.140
Tinder.

449
00:30:43.200 --> 00:30:44.700
Tinder or any exactly.

450
00:30:44.759 --> 00:30:55.079
I saw a girl on the on the bus the other day flicking through pictures of boys and then she came across an Asian once you just hit X. And I thought, yeah, that's kind of our culture now, so you get real for a second.

451
00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:56.759
Yeah, that is. yeah.

452
00:30:56.819 --> 00:30:57.180
Yeah.

453
00:30:57.240 --> 00:30:59.819
Who knew who would have known how pressing this was?

454
00:30:59.880 --> 00:31:00.900
I think I read that.

455
00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:02.220
I think I may have read that.

456
00:31:02.279 --> 00:31:03.480
It's a lovely novella.

457
00:31:03.539 --> 00:31:04.440
That's the thing.

458
00:31:04.500 --> 00:31:05.940
A lot of people say about this part.

459
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:12.539
Oh, you know, it's completely unrealistic that we would put the control centre so far away and it's completely unrealistic that people wouldn't have.

460
00:31:12.599 --> 00:31:13.680
But moon based in London.

461
00:31:13.740 --> 00:31:15.900
Well, it's actually just a PNG, isn't it?

462
00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:19.079
It's Telecom, British or Telstra.

463
00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:19.859
Exactly.

464
00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:24.420
Most call centres for services are not in the country, servicing.

465
00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:25.980
Bane modern culture.

466
00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:30.900
But the system is brittle in a way that it shouldn't be if everyone relies on it.

467
00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:32.460
And Professor Eldred.

468
00:31:32.519 --> 00:31:37.500
He's been the one against science, not against science, but against modern science.

469
00:31:37.559 --> 00:31:40.440
And he points that out at the end when they're talking about research.

470
00:31:40.500 --> 00:31:41.400
That why he's the only team.

471
00:31:41.460 --> 00:31:42.299
Yeah.

472
00:31:42.359 --> 00:31:44.339
That's why he's the only one in a rubber cardigan, isn't he?

473
00:31:44.460 --> 00:31:45.000
Oh my god.

474
00:31:45.059 --> 00:31:46.740
Can we talk about that in a second?

475
00:31:46.799 --> 00:31:56.519
So here, the science versus technology thing, and I think terribly sweetly, in the Ice Warriors, it's a guy with a stone axe and bearskins who's on the anti-science side.

476
00:31:56.579 --> 00:32:03.960
Here, it's a guy who looks nostalgically at the very cutting edge technology of 1968.

477
00:32:04.140 --> 00:32:09.059
You know, it's it's our technology that's uh, uh, that's valorized here.

478
00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:12.839
Well, it's a bit like what they did in the space museum a few years before this.

479
00:32:12.900 --> 00:32:14.819
You know, old space travelled, old hat, now.

480
00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:16.259
Nobody's interested in that anymore.

481
00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:17.339
Nobody's coming to the museum.

482
00:32:17.400 --> 00:32:18.779
Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

483
00:32:18.839 --> 00:32:20.279
British thing, isn't it?

484
00:32:20.339 --> 00:32:26.940
A very British thing of absolutely refusing to get excited about what's the most...

485
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:44.940
And looking at I'm looking at it in the most cynical way possible. as if you could have actually had Tony Hancock, as Eldred, or as one of the older commanders, and it wouldn't have set, this could have been played by the cast of Hans Hancock's half hour, which is a lovely thought, because we would have had Hattie Jax as Geo Kelly.

486
00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:48.000
And that rubble James is Commander Radnor.

487
00:32:48.059 --> 00:32:51.359
That would have really been a stretch, wouldn't that true?

488
00:32:51.420 --> 00:32:54.119
I want to get back to the rubber cardigan at this point.

489
00:32:54.180 --> 00:32:56.940
I was saying that would have gone a bit of stretch.

490
00:32:57.000 --> 00:32:59.160
So everyone's wearing these.

491
00:32:59.220 --> 00:33:02.099
I mean, like they, you know, normal. rompers.

492
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:02.880
Yeah, horrible.

493
00:33:02.940 --> 00:33:04.440
It's like consonants, pants.

494
00:33:04.500 --> 00:33:10.019
But like Professor Eldred works at a museum and Radner works somewhere else.

495
00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:11.039
Do you know what I mean?

496
00:33:11.099 --> 00:33:12.059
team at stations.

497
00:33:12.119 --> 00:33:12.720
Exactly.

498
00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:14.700
And then there's John Sudbury or something.

499
00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:15.599
Is that what he's called?

500
00:33:15.660 --> 00:33:16.440
make that up.

501
00:33:16.500 --> 00:33:18.000
And he comes to old...

502
00:33:18.059 --> 00:33:25.859
Then he comes from he comes from the the ministry, but they all wear these sort of depends undergarments on the outside if they're...

503
00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:28.079
Except for geopellic.

504
00:33:28.140 --> 00:33:32.099
She wears her own black, etherquette, catwoman version of it.

505
00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:33.240
Louise brought that from home.

506
00:33:36.299 --> 00:33:38.819
Yeah, those costumes are absolutely ridiculous.

507
00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:47.880
You guys showed this to a friend who hadn't been watching after who we just watched the 1st one and all he said was, what the expletive are they wearing?

508
00:33:47.940 --> 00:33:49.200
Whose idea was that?

509
00:33:49.259 --> 00:33:50.039
It's the 60s.

510
00:33:50.099 --> 00:33:50.819
Everyone was very modern.

511
00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:52.140
At least they're tucked in.

512
00:33:52.200 --> 00:33:53.700
We don't get any little sense.

513
00:33:53.759 --> 00:34:01.140
They're defining little lines around their hips, just to let you just to let you know that everyone's been living on a diet of spams, dodge.

514
00:34:02.579 --> 00:34:08.280
Well, the funny thing is, it's only spam and dumplings that are the foods that survive the team that process, so many people know that.

515
00:34:08.820 --> 00:34:18.900
But yeah, I can sort of look at them and go, they come from Thunderbirds, that kind of, this is what the future will look like.

516
00:34:18.960 --> 00:34:31.860
But they just missed the point that the Thunderbirds things are a logical extrapolation of current military uniforms. whereas this is just textured...

517
00:34:31.860 --> 00:34:32.579
Jumpsuits.

518
00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:43.380
Thunderbirds where the American graffiti hasn't been on yet, but they wear 50s ice cream sellers uniforms. where they're coming with this one.

519
00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:44.760
You would never do that now.

520
00:34:44.820 --> 00:34:47.639
I mean, if you had a civil servant coming from the ministry in the year.

521
00:34:47.699 --> 00:34:48.900
What year is it?

522
00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:50.579
It's like 100 years in the future.

523
00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:53.639
No, Ice Warriors is a 1000 years in the future.

524
00:34:53.699 --> 00:34:54.719
This is a 100 years in the future.

525
00:34:54.780 --> 00:34:56.519
Yes, that's 2060s, yeah.

526
00:34:56.579 --> 00:34:57.059
Yeah, yeah.

527
00:34:57.119 --> 00:34:59.940
And you would have a man from the ministry turn up in a suit, wouldn't you?

528
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:02.760
He'd been dressed like Trevor Sigma, you know, with a bowl hat and stuff.

529
00:35:02.820 --> 00:35:08.760
And he would be an anatronism, but you were trying to convey to the audience who this person is and what sort of character they are.

530
00:35:08.820 --> 00:35:46.260
And, you know, for some reason they forego doing that using their clothing and just having everyone in these sort of horrendous adults. incontinence where, yeah, I mean, a show that really did well with not going very far in the future, but figuring out a really good dress system, not just for the military, but for all walks of life, was Babylon 5, who had suits where instead of having, instead of having a lapel that's attached to the suit, it was a separate strip of fabric that was attached and just had sort of epaulettes at the top, like little epaulette buttons, and that's all bullet hell

531
00:35:46.260 --> 00:35:46.619
walls.

532
00:35:46.679 --> 00:35:48.780
So it kept the line of the design.

533
00:35:48.840 --> 00:35:53.519
But made it look like it was from a different time.

534
00:35:53.579 --> 00:35:54.840
And that's the thing.

535
00:35:54.900 --> 00:36:03.960
What these people are wearing doesn't really have much bearing with what their functions were in the 20th century.

536
00:36:04.019 --> 00:36:05.639
The scientists don't look like scientists.

537
00:36:05.699 --> 00:36:08.699
The civil servant doesn't look like a civil servant.

538
00:36:08.760 --> 00:36:10.440
Unless it's a non-to-communism.

539
00:36:10.500 --> 00:36:12.719
The only people who were wearing uniforms at the time.

540
00:36:12.780 --> 00:36:15.960
If there was any way reductive and normal.

541
00:36:16.019 --> 00:36:17.579
This thing like this.

542
00:36:17.639 --> 00:36:20.039
Well, yeah, with a malice. and that would seem as a really scary thing.

543
00:36:20.099 --> 00:36:23.639
So maybe they're talking about that society's had a huge change.

544
00:36:23.699 --> 00:36:25.500
Yeah, it's what we're looking at.

545
00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:29.280
So no one actually mentions with all these team activeries going about.

546
00:36:29.340 --> 00:36:30.840
No one's mentioning who's picking up the bill.

547
00:36:30.900 --> 00:36:35.760
Yeah, it looks like a world government thing, doesn't it, on Jerry Anderson line.

548
00:36:35.820 --> 00:36:40.500
No, they talk about the United Nations, I think, don't they, at some point or did I just make that up?

549
00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:42.239
Am I completely adulating?

550
00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:43.920
The United Nations?

551
00:36:43.980 --> 00:36:54.119
I tend to think, you know, most of these things, we assume, post-apocalyptic world of some kind or another, that something's been mastered, and this is the reason you now have social cohesion.

552
00:36:54.179 --> 00:36:58.320
The 1st thing I thought watching this is what were they doing about terrorism and illegal immigration.

553
00:36:58.380 --> 00:37:10.320
It doesn't seem to be a concern, which again suggests that the rest of society is so normalised and formalised and maybe, you know, just in such tight little strides that that isn't a problem.

554
00:37:10.380 --> 00:37:11.820
Why would that not be a problem?

555
00:37:11.880 --> 00:37:13.079
Because everything else is so controlled.

556
00:37:13.260 --> 00:37:18.539
I don't think it's because everyone has all the lovely things that they want appearing the moment that they need them.

557
00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:22.619
Provided you live in Canberra or Tokyo or Ottawa.

558
00:37:22.679 --> 00:37:38.099
So why are the Ice Warriors is the next question because in the last, in the last Nice Warrior story, we were surrounded by ice and they got thawed out of ice and that's something that Gates is reusers for Cold War when he reproduces the Ice Warriors after all this time.

559
00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:43.559
And the only thing that I can think of is that, um, Hales is borrowing a lot of stuff from more of the world.

560
00:37:43.619 --> 00:37:51.480
And in particular, you might remember that the War of the Worlds, which is a fantastic novel.

561
00:37:51.539 --> 00:37:56.460
I mean, I saw the, um, I'm totally blanking on his name.

562
00:37:56.519 --> 00:37:57.539
John Powell?

563
00:37:57.599 --> 00:37:58.079
No.

564
00:37:58.079 --> 00:37:59.219
Tom Cruise?

565
00:37:59.340 --> 00:38:00.480
Tom Cruise.

566
00:38:00.539 --> 00:38:01.380
I saw the job.

567
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:02.699
I never seen the George Powell version.

568
00:38:02.760 --> 00:38:14.880
But I've read the book and I've always wanted them to do a film of the book because I want a film where the Martians invade London in like 1901 or whatever, you know, like that it's a bit more steampunk.

569
00:38:14.940 --> 00:38:19.920
But in any case, the Martians are trying to colonise our planet because their world was dying.

570
00:38:19.980 --> 00:38:21.780
That's their motivation in war of the worlds.

571
00:38:21.900 --> 00:38:36.780
And they inadvertently infect the world with a deadly weed, the red weed, and the red weed drives on water, whereas the vice Warriors one is destroyed by it, and it gets sort of killed by earth bacteria.

572
00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:49.320
And of course, like any giant fungal infection in late 1960s Doctor Who, the weed is realised using the BBC phone machine.

573
00:38:49.320 --> 00:38:54.480
And it's a huge, it's a huge finale for the BBC phone machine.

574
00:38:54.539 --> 00:38:56.219
It's really never worked as hard as this.

575
00:38:56.340 --> 00:39:05.400
You know, is it cliffhanger to episode 5 where Troughton's like flailing above his head in like giant amounts of foam?

576
00:39:05.460 --> 00:39:06.840
Yes, yes. that's right.

577
00:39:06.900 --> 00:39:11.579
And Wendy Padbury is behind a door on the other side of town at Ealing.

578
00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:13.619
Incidentally.

579
00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:26.699
That scene, as we were watching Doctor Who and making our way through that scene and the ice warrior coming over the hill with the sun behind him, are the 2 earlier scenes. that Rod remembers of Doctor Who.

580
00:39:26.760 --> 00:39:27.659
Oh, okay.

581
00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:31.440
See, I told you he was here, didn't it?

582
00:39:31.500 --> 00:39:32.099
Shut up.

583
00:39:35.159 --> 00:39:36.659
I can imagine that.

584
00:39:36.719 --> 00:39:41.699
That's a great scene with the sort of looming, you know, the light behind him and stuff.

585
00:39:41.760 --> 00:39:44.280
In fact, there's some really good direction on film.

586
00:39:44.340 --> 00:39:45.119
I think in this story.

587
00:39:45.179 --> 00:39:45.960
Yeah, yeah.

588
00:39:46.019 --> 00:39:47.159
I think it's Michael Ferguson.

589
00:39:47.219 --> 00:39:52.860
Am I right in thinking, Nathan, that this is the swan song for the BBC phone machine in Doctor Who?

590
00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:59.880
I think this might be its last one and it may actually have choked on the very demands place.

591
00:40:00.119 --> 00:40:04.380
Maybe it got a white balloon court in it. never worked again.

592
00:40:04.440 --> 00:40:08.340
Sport play blue grade because it turns up a lot in Space 1979.

593
00:40:08.519 --> 00:40:09.119
Does it?

594
00:40:09.179 --> 00:40:09.480
Yes.

595
00:40:09.539 --> 00:40:11.280
I'm not straight watch that.

596
00:40:11.340 --> 00:40:13.380
So does Fred Freiburger, unfortunately.

597
00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:26.039
And of course, the other thing about those phone machine scenes either some, those scenes with Patrick falling about in the phone were filmed several weeks before the rest of the story.

598
00:40:26.099 --> 00:40:28.320
So in that scene, Patrick's got very short hair.

599
00:40:28.380 --> 00:40:32.159
And then for the rest of the story, he's got slightly longer haired, but you can't really tell.

600
00:40:32.219 --> 00:40:36.900
And then there's the episode where he's not actually there because he's gone off on holiday.

601
00:40:36.900 --> 00:40:42.059
And remember, he said, the whole episode is unconscious and then he's going to be beamed out into space or something.

602
00:40:42.179 --> 00:40:47.280
And when he comes back from that, his sideburns are almost down to his mouth.

603
00:40:47.340 --> 00:40:57.059
But a lot of people in this episode look radically different from they do in other stories, especially the 1st wiggly wobbly appearance of Jenna Coleman.

604
00:40:57.119 --> 00:40:59.820
Did you notice that Oswald is in the 1st episode?

605
00:40:59.880 --> 00:41:02.760
No, Jenna Coleman's Oswin, Oscar.

606
00:41:02.820 --> 00:41:04.139
I suppose she'd also been Oswald?

607
00:41:04.199 --> 00:41:07.380
No, Osgood is Osgood.

608
00:41:07.679 --> 00:41:08.219
Ingrid P.

609
00:41:08.280 --> 00:41:09.239
Ingrid Pitt.

610
00:41:09.300 --> 00:41:10.559
Ingrid Pitt, Oliver.

611
00:41:10.619 --> 00:41:12.119
I thought I thought it was a little bit.

612
00:41:12.179 --> 00:41:14.639
Yes, well, she does make an appearance as Harry Towb.

613
00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:16.559
For old Harry.

614
00:41:16.619 --> 00:41:17.039
Yeah.

615
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:20.460
He comes in, he flirts with Louise, you know, and gets killed.

616
00:41:20.519 --> 00:41:22.139
Yeah, because that's what happens if you quote.

617
00:41:22.260 --> 00:41:24.239
He gets killed every time he appears in Doctor Who.

618
00:41:24.300 --> 00:41:25.079
What's his other one?

619
00:41:25.139 --> 00:41:26.880
He's in terror of the automs.

620
00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:27.539
Yeah, as well.

621
00:41:28.139 --> 00:41:34.440
And he was interviewed years later and people say, you know, how do you see all that your character sort of comes in and dies within 2 or 3 scenes. like, no, it's great.

622
00:41:34.500 --> 00:41:36.239
I get a job and people remember it.

623
00:41:36.300 --> 00:41:38.699
How many times has that clip with the armchair been played?

624
00:41:38.760 --> 00:41:41.340
Oh, he gets killed by the armour player.

625
00:41:41.400 --> 00:41:42.840
But we're getting ahead of ourselves.

626
00:41:42.900 --> 00:41:46.559
I like fuchsium in that scene, actually. and Fuchsium's quite a good character.

627
00:41:46.619 --> 00:41:48.300
It's great all the way through, isn't it?

628
00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:48.719
Yeah.

629
00:41:48.780 --> 00:41:53.159
And it's this gift Brian Hale seems to have writing minor characters.

630
00:41:53.219 --> 00:42:00.719
So just to contextualise, fusion is the only person who survives the initial ice warrior attack on the moon base on Moonbase 2.

631
00:42:00.900 --> 00:42:03.179
Oh, except for Phipps.

632
00:42:03.239 --> 00:42:03.960
Mr. Pipps.

633
00:42:04.019 --> 00:42:05.099
He's lovely, isn't he?

634
00:42:05.219 --> 00:42:06.119
He gets killed too.

635
00:42:06.179 --> 00:42:12.780
But Fuchsm is desperate not to die, which I kind of think is a pretty reasonable motivation, actually. you know, like I think that's fair enough.

636
00:42:13.079 --> 00:42:17.340
Like the ice Warriors in this are really like murdery, aren't they?

637
00:42:17.400 --> 00:42:20.159
They didn't kill they kill lots and lots of people.

638
00:42:20.219 --> 00:42:26.280
And Fuchsian was kind of getting a bit more tense about this and a bit more implicated, but he continues to work with them.

639
00:42:26.639 --> 00:42:30.840
Like he sacrifices himself in episode five.

640
00:42:30.900 --> 00:42:41.519
He teamats everyone else off the moon, uh, and pretends that the special timer switch that he's going to use to get off pretends that that works.

641
00:42:41.579 --> 00:42:45.480
But I think we like Miss Kelly knows that it's not working or something like that.

642
00:42:45.539 --> 00:42:48.239
And then he broadcasts himself.

643
00:42:48.539 --> 00:42:56.820
Like he turns on the video, which is repaired, and he broadcasts the ice warriors' plans to everyone back on Earth.

644
00:42:56.880 --> 00:43:02.760
And the ice warrior kind of looks up at the camera and say, am I on camera, you know, and kills him.

645
00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:04.199
And so we see his sacrifice.

646
00:43:04.260 --> 00:43:12.239
And it's really wonderful because even Miss Kelly doesn't believe, you know, once his team mattered them all off.

647
00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:15.659
She doesn't believe that he's sacrificed himself.

648
00:43:15.780 --> 00:43:19.739
She still thinks that he's a worthless traitor, and he gets to redeem himself.

649
00:43:19.800 --> 00:43:22.019
And it's very cool.

650
00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:22.980
It is very cool.

651
00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:25.679
It's another great character arc, I think.

652
00:43:25.739 --> 00:43:27.539
He's in Blake 7.

653
00:43:27.599 --> 00:43:28.860
Of course.

654
00:43:28.920 --> 00:43:30.360
Isn't everyone though?

655
00:43:30.420 --> 00:43:31.380
at this point.

656
00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:32.639
Well, pretty much.

657
00:43:32.699 --> 00:43:33.059
Yeah.

658
00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:39.480
So, the one thing that I wanted to say too, can I talk a little bit about the base under siege thing?

659
00:43:39.539 --> 00:43:41.880
Yes, actually, I've got something to say to that as well.

660
00:43:41.940 --> 00:43:42.659
I do go on.

661
00:43:42.780 --> 00:43:58.739
I said initially that I thought the problem with the base under siege thing is that Doctor Who goes from a show about going anywhere, doing anything, exploring the universe to show about desperately trying to keep the universe out.

662
00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:10.619
Um, yeah. and that it was kind of xenophobic and and kind of narrow-minded in its in its approach and that it was a, that it represented a sort of drop off.

663
00:44:10.679 --> 00:44:14.099
You know, I think Doctor Who production wise gets better year after year.

664
00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:23.460
But, There are things I like about the Heartnel era as being just more experimental and more fun and having less of a clear idea of what it's trying to do.

665
00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:26.940
Whereas now that we're stuck with bases under siege.

666
00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:28.860
I think we've hit us a pretty negative note.

667
00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:40.380
And I have to say that this is the ultimate base under siege, and I think that it really, really, um, shows how bad bases under siege can be.

668
00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:46.440
And the thing about it is it's the moral effect. that it has on the doctor.

669
00:44:46.500 --> 00:44:55.980
So the doctor has a solar gun that he kills an ice warrior with, like he carries a big gun and he vaporises an ice warrior with a big gun.

670
00:44:56.039 --> 00:45:00.300
He diverts their fleet into solar orbit where they'll all die.

671
00:45:00.360 --> 00:45:01.260
Do you know what I mean?

672
00:45:01.320 --> 00:45:08.039
And that's the thing instead of meeting new aliens and that sort of thing, the doctor's job in this story has become killing them.

673
00:45:08.099 --> 00:45:12.480
And, you know, you very rarely see the doctor with a gun shooting people.

674
00:45:12.539 --> 00:45:27.000
Pirtually it kills an ogre on at some point, but I think that really means it's time to say goodbye to the base under siege with Trown because I think it just has a terrible impact on the character of the doctor and just on the whole show's entire outlook.

675
00:45:27.059 --> 00:45:29.099
See, I have to disagree.

676
00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:32.820
I do agree that this is a based on a scene story.

677
00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:49.800
But I think that this is the halfway house between the trout and base underseat model and the troubleshooters model that we're going to get in the Pearl era because you have the base under siege up on the moon. while down on Earth, you have a team of scientists and eventually the doctor working on a solution down there.

678
00:45:49.860 --> 00:45:55.800
Now, as for the doctor's actions, You know what?

679
00:45:55.860 --> 00:46:00.000
Yeah, he does get desperate, but it takes a lot for him to get there.

680
00:46:00.059 --> 00:46:10.320
You know, it takes the fungus to be spreading around earth, it takes several deaths at least 5 team that personnel we see killed.

681
00:46:10.380 --> 00:46:13.260
I think we've seen 4 security guards killed.

682
00:46:13.320 --> 00:46:18.900
So, you know, almost a dozen people we see die before the doctor takes up a gun and takes a life.

683
00:46:19.079 --> 00:46:24.179
And also that bit with him diverting the ships into the sun.

684
00:46:24.239 --> 00:46:27.719
First of all, he hatches that plot with G. Kelly.

685
00:46:27.780 --> 00:46:32.820
So it's a bit like the whole Peter Capaldi, I need you to decide what to do about this Moon Eck thing.

686
00:46:32.880 --> 00:46:37.079
But 2nd of all, when he goes up to tell the ice Warriors what he's done.

687
00:46:37.619 --> 00:46:40.320
He stands there waiting for death.

688
00:46:40.380 --> 00:46:43.500
He is aware that he has done something horrible.

689
00:46:43.559 --> 00:46:49.320
Like he takes no pride in what he did when Sly says, you destroy Buckleet.

690
00:46:49.380 --> 00:46:51.900
He just says, look, you're trying to destroy an entire world.

691
00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:54.539
I had no choice and he just stands there.

692
00:46:54.599 --> 00:46:55.679
He doesn't try to run away.

693
00:46:55.739 --> 00:47:00.000
He doesn't go off on that big chase through all the mirrors like he does earlier in the story.

694
00:47:00.059 --> 00:47:01.199
He stands there.

695
00:47:01.260 --> 00:47:03.420
He stands there waiting for his death.

696
00:47:03.420 --> 00:47:10.739
And of course, who comes to his rescue, but the man whose character is being further redemed and rebuilt story by story.

697
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:24.480
Jamie throws himself into the middle of 3 ice Warriors to rescue the doctor and you've got that beautiful moment at the end where, you know, they're blokes so they don't talk about their feelings. it's just very quite, thank you very much, Jimmy.

698
00:47:24.539 --> 00:47:26.579
And back off to earth.

699
00:47:26.639 --> 00:47:27.659
I think it's...

700
00:47:27.659 --> 00:47:41.219
Very much an undeployed scene. certainly it's questionable morality, but this doctor, Patrick, has always had a questionable morality, but the key factor is he doesn't turn into Bruce Willis because of this.

701
00:47:41.280 --> 00:47:42.659
He doesn't go up there to gloat.

702
00:47:42.780 --> 00:47:45.780
He goes up there to confess. that this is what he's done.

703
00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:49.619
So, I just think they haven't kind of quite been the doctor's morality down yet.

704
00:47:49.679 --> 00:47:59.820
And so you get that, um, you know, the tenant has to go out and give the son Tyrans a chance, you know, or, um, you know, the doctor's never cruel nor cowardly, but all of that's in the future.

705
00:48:00.059 --> 00:48:06.960
I think that I think that, like I said, per tweet pulls a gun on an ogre on him day of the Daleks and sort of vaporises him.

706
00:48:07.019 --> 00:48:10.260
I just think that they haven't quite pinned it down.

707
00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:21.420
So I don't mean, I just mean sort of narratively that you put the doctor in a situation by having a story like this where the solution to the story is to kill all of the aliens.

708
00:48:21.480 --> 00:48:22.320
Do you know what I mean?

709
00:48:22.380 --> 00:48:31.800
not to make them go away, not to trick them into blowing themselves up, not to get them to learn a valuable lesson, but to kind of kill them all.

710
00:48:31.860 --> 00:48:40.559
It's really obvious that he's ploy here is or his plan here is genocide. just because they're willing to do the same to earth.

711
00:48:40.619 --> 00:48:46.320
As far as we know, they're very few ice warriors left, for a few Martians left, but he's perfectly determined.

712
00:48:46.380 --> 00:48:47.579
Is it article 12?

713
00:48:47.639 --> 00:48:51.000
Article 18, Article 46, Article 7.

714
00:48:51.480 --> 00:48:54.119
When did he start becoming like this?

715
00:48:54.179 --> 00:48:56.039
Was he like this?

716
00:48:56.099 --> 00:48:57.059
I didn't do that.

717
00:48:57.119 --> 00:48:58.380
Middle of the Daleks.

718
00:48:58.500 --> 00:49:01.320
Yeah, it's very much a new doctor thing, isn't it?

719
00:49:01.380 --> 00:49:03.300
In the moon base, they...

720
00:49:03.300 --> 00:49:04.619
What do they do?

721
00:49:04.679 --> 00:49:06.960
They demagnetize them and fling them off into space.

722
00:49:07.079 --> 00:49:09.300
They could say you could say happy there, probably.

723
00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:15.420
Yeah, but you could say that the cybermen are not a racist such. a demonised and dehumanised form.

724
00:49:15.480 --> 00:49:17.340
Well, I think that's a bit ablest.

725
00:49:17.460 --> 00:49:28.679
I mean, the thing is, Something that has happened several times now with Patrick is, everyone wants to get to one, you know, everyone wants to get to escape. once.

726
00:49:28.739 --> 00:49:32.099
Power of the daleks, he just destroys a few daleks.

727
00:49:32.159 --> 00:49:34.800
Evil is just like, okay, no, you're messing with me again.

728
00:49:34.860 --> 00:49:35.280
You're gone.

729
00:49:35.579 --> 00:49:37.320
Moonbase.

730
00:49:37.380 --> 00:49:39.000
Okay, I'll just fling you off into space.

731
00:49:39.059 --> 00:49:40.619
Two, right, I am burying you.

732
00:49:41.280 --> 00:49:43.079
Burning.

733
00:49:43.139 --> 00:49:44.940
Great, great intelligence.

734
00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:46.920
Jim Moriarty of Doctor Who.

735
00:49:46.980 --> 00:49:48.960
Yeah, great intelligence. 1st time.

736
00:49:49.019 --> 00:49:49.679
Okay, yeah, fine.

737
00:49:49.739 --> 00:49:50.219
Leaf.

738
00:49:50.280 --> 00:49:50.880
Please go away.

739
00:49:50.940 --> 00:49:55.260
Second time, I am going to drain your intelligence and that's all you are.

740
00:49:55.320 --> 00:49:57.119
I'm going to drain who you are away.

741
00:49:57.480 --> 00:49:59.400
Ice Warriors.

742
00:49:59.460 --> 00:50:02.099
And we get it now as the default card.

743
00:50:02.159 --> 00:50:05.039
It's why Matt Smith was just picking up on so much of that.

744
00:50:05.099 --> 00:50:12.900
Really our 11th doctor. with so much now we're looking at the underside of this doctor underneath his tortoise shell, his shiny tortoise shell.

745
00:50:12.960 --> 00:50:15.179
He's actually got, you know, dark underbelly.

746
00:50:15.239 --> 00:50:19.260
And yeah, so it's interesting to see how this is informs so much of later.

747
00:50:19.320 --> 00:50:23.940
So I have a, I have a favourite production gap, and that is the heating control.

748
00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:26.400
It's very important.

749
00:50:26.460 --> 00:50:29.099
They go up to a 100, they go 100%.

750
00:50:29.099 --> 00:50:29.880
That sounds great.

751
00:50:29.940 --> 00:50:31.380
Why would you have that?

752
00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:32.880
Why?

753
00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:37.860
And like they turn it up to 60 at some and no one's breaking a sweat.

754
00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:45.900
The ice rators are all falling over, but my people don't survive very comfortably at 60 degrees centigrade for a particularly...

755
00:50:45.960 --> 00:50:47.460
No, I just thought that was very strange.

756
00:50:47.519 --> 00:50:50.639
And what happened if you leant on the, like, lent on the?

757
00:50:50.699 --> 00:50:51.000
Yeah.

758
00:50:51.059 --> 00:50:54.840
No, no, no, if you leant on the switch, you know, and inadvertently pushed it to her.

759
00:50:54.900 --> 00:50:55.739
Yeah, that's true.

760
00:50:55.800 --> 00:50:59.579
Yeah, so I wouldn't have had, I wouldn't have had those controls on me.

761
00:50:59.699 --> 00:51:06.480
This is because the production team themselves are realising how much they miss fluffing Billy. and so instead of letting the doctor do it.

762
00:51:06.539 --> 00:51:08.280
They just have everything else around him.

763
00:51:08.340 --> 00:51:10.139
Well, from committing the same fact.

764
00:51:10.199 --> 00:51:19.559
From a production standpoint, this is another one that was got ready in a hurry because 1st of all, Brian Hales wrote them Lords of the Red Planet, which has again been made by a big finish.

765
00:51:19.619 --> 00:51:20.639
I'll have that.

766
00:51:20.699 --> 00:51:26.099
Is that got the zombie sort of space thing where they, don't they, in the original story?

767
00:51:26.159 --> 00:51:30.059
They were hypnotising or brainwashing the inhabitants.

768
00:51:30.119 --> 00:51:35.340
Oh, no, no, that's some, that was another story he came up with, but no, this is essentially Genesis of the Ice Warriors.

769
00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:36.900
Oh, interesting planet.

770
00:51:36.960 --> 00:51:41.039
And it has my own trout in it as well, which is a nice touch.

771
00:51:41.579 --> 00:51:45.000
But that was sort of deemed that it wouldn't work.

772
00:51:45.059 --> 00:51:50.940
Then, um, Brian Hales said, okay, I'll write you the face stories, see the death bloody.

773
00:51:51.000 --> 00:51:53.880
Fraser Hines' contract was up in, I think, episode four.

774
00:51:53.940 --> 00:51:56.159
So they're going to replace it with a new character called Nick.

775
00:51:56.219 --> 00:52:04.139
But then Courtney is when Patrick solidified that he was going to leave, Fraser said, I'll stay on until Patrick goes.

776
00:52:04.199 --> 00:52:09.179
So Terrence Stick said, oh, Brian, would you mind rewriting the story, keep Jamie in it to the end.

777
00:52:09.239 --> 00:52:10.500
Oh yeah, it's fine.

778
00:52:10.559 --> 00:52:17.699
Then something else happened and Fraser might Fraser might have been out, so he had to start rewriting the next story.

779
00:52:17.760 --> 00:52:22.260
And then finally Fraser was back in and Brian said, look, I've got other commissions I need to move on to.

780
00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:28.619
And for that reason, and also for reasons of plot, apparently, the last few of Brian Hale's episodes weren't too interesting.

781
00:52:28.619 --> 00:52:31.320
The 1st 2 episodes are completely Brian Hales.

782
00:52:31.380 --> 00:52:36.719
Episodes 3 through 6 are Terrence Sticks from a story by Brian Hales.

783
00:52:36.780 --> 00:52:37.739
It wasn't J.R.

784
00:52:37.739 --> 00:52:40.019
Kelly going to be hypnotised in the original thing.

785
00:52:40.079 --> 00:52:42.780
I think I read that Oh, I don't know, to be honest with you.

786
00:52:42.780 --> 00:52:54.000
I, I, I, Yeah, yeah, because, you know, you would have weakened her role and her specialness for, as you've said before, being a female character in a 1960s piece of television.

787
00:52:54.059 --> 00:53:00.059
But nobody, unlike Anne Travers, nobody comments what's a girl like you doing in a place like this, they're just like, yeah, that's you.

788
00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:02.760
Um, you know, you're J.

789
00:53:02.760 --> 00:53:04.800
Kelly, you're wonderful and you're the best we've got.

790
00:53:04.860 --> 00:53:09.000
She's the Megan Jones of Seeds of Death.

791
00:53:09.059 --> 00:53:09.960
Yes, Indeed.

792
00:53:19.019 --> 00:53:26.699
Okay, so that's why we have time for this podcast, and we only have one more episode of the 1960s to go.

793
00:53:26.760 --> 00:53:28.500
So...

794
00:53:28.500 --> 00:53:29.579
My giggy art.

795
00:53:30.059 --> 00:53:46.860
We'll be back next week, just after Christmas. to talk about the space pirates and the war games, which is not only the end of Patrick Trown's era, but it's the end of quite a lot and the beginning of something else altogether. of the 1960s.

796
00:53:46.980 --> 00:53:51.360
Yeah, it's the end of Doctor Zoo in the beginning of a completely different show. interesting.

797
00:53:51.420 --> 00:53:58.199
Don't forget, you can comment on our website for your chance to win a target novelisation.

798
00:53:58.260 --> 00:54:04.139
We'll be announcing 3 winners from our season 6 podcast and it's the end of next week's podcast.

799
00:54:04.199 --> 00:54:06.539
But until then, good night.

800
00:54:06.599 --> 00:54:07.619
Good night.

801
00:54:08.280 --> 00:54:08.699
Thank you.

802
00:54:13.139 --> 00:54:18.420
You've been listening to Clutter entirely, Nathan Bodley, Brandon Jones, and Richard Stone.

803
00:54:18.480 --> 00:54:22.320
This episode, Sidegone Pro, is reported on Sunday, the 4th of December.

804
00:54:22.380 --> 00:54:24.719
The next episode will be released on December 28.

805
00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:26.099
You can find us online.

806
00:54:26.099 --> 00:54:31.380
It's Centre Entirety.com, find your entire show on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter.

807
00:54:31.440 --> 00:54:34.380
At any notice that new scripts don't have many terribly busy lines.

808
00:54:34.440 --> 00:54:35.699
It turns out at the end of our podcast.

809
00:54:39.000 --> 00:54:43.260
Another bleeping humanoid race and another bleeping quarry.

810
00:54:43.320 --> 00:54:44.280
I do that thing.

811
00:54:44.639 --> 00:54:48.539
Just swallow that and just...

812
00:54:48.599 --> 00:54:49.860
Yes, that'll be in the end.

813
00:54:50.340 --> 00:54:53.699
Swallow that and do it again, such time, so hard.