WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:35:51 1 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:43.140 Someway, Comi Sauditor, et bene tibi reventum sit in fugam per totalitatem. 2 00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:52.560 Solam seriam colloquiorum inperretialem doctor who, inqua nos omnes cambricce loquimur, sum Nathan? 3 00:00:52.679 --> 00:00:53.759 Sum James? 4 00:00:53.759 --> 00:00:55.979 Sum Brendan. 5 00:00:56.039 --> 00:01:11.459 It's time for Donna Noble to take her 1st trip back into the past, and what better place to visit than Pompeii, where the Latin is dodgy, the dormice are lightly toasted, and the moral dilemmas are based on absolutely nothing at all. 6 00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:14.280 Pass around the marshmallows, everyone. 7 00:01:14.340 --> 00:01:16.859 It's the fires of Pompeii. 8 00:01:27.540 --> 00:01:30.120 So, background for this story. 9 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:32.700 This was something of a backup script. 10 00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:43.079 So, originally, this was the slot for Mark Gatis's much discussed but never produced World War 2 museum story. 11 00:01:43.140 --> 00:01:44.640 Oh. 12 00:01:44.640 --> 00:01:51.420 But at this point, it was still planned to be World War I during production, during pre-production, I should say. 13 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:55.859 They moved it to a World War 2 setting while also developing the fires of Pompeii. 14 00:01:55.920 --> 00:02:06.299 And the reason they didn't just go for Pfizer Pompeii straight away is that they were worried it would be too expensive to replicate Rome. not Rome, sorry, Pompeii, obviously. 15 00:02:06.359 --> 00:02:15.300 They were worried it would be too expensive to replicate Pompeii and the volcanic eruption and it might be much cheaper to do something inside a museum. 16 00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:19.139 Russell said to Mark Gators, make it in World War II. 17 00:02:19.199 --> 00:02:24.060 And then a couple weeks later said, actually, we've done World War 2 recently, so we're going to go with the Pompeii one. 18 00:02:24.419 --> 00:02:27.419 So Gatus doesn't get an episode this season. 19 00:02:27.479 --> 00:02:29.460 He was that annoyed. 20 00:02:29.580 --> 00:02:36.360 No, it was just, you know, he'd spent all that time working on the script, which I believe was still paid for because they were overcommissioning scripts at this stage. 21 00:02:36.419 --> 00:02:39.419 They were usually commissioning 15 to 16 scripts for the year. 22 00:02:39.479 --> 00:02:43.259 Stephen Fry got paid for his script that wasn't made 2 years ago, for instance. 23 00:02:43.500 --> 00:02:46.740 Yeah, but he just doesn't end up writing another one this year. 24 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:52.860 And Gatus will get one in 2 years' time in the next full season, a World War 2 script, I guess. 25 00:02:52.919 --> 00:02:54.659 Yeah, yeah, he gets victory of the Dalux. 26 00:02:54.719 --> 00:02:58.080 So Pompeii is sort of a sort of fairly obvious place. 27 00:02:58.139 --> 00:03:03.539 I mean, we've had it mentioned in the doctor dances or whatever. 28 00:03:03.599 --> 00:03:06.360 And I think there's the Fires of Vulcan, isn't there? 29 00:03:06.419 --> 00:03:07.680 A big finish audio. 30 00:03:07.740 --> 00:03:09.960 Yeah, the 7th doctrine Mel story. 31 00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:12.360 That was years before this though. 32 00:03:12.419 --> 00:03:15.240 Yeah, I think this was before they had McGann. 33 00:03:15.300 --> 00:03:17.039 So this would have been 1999, 2000. 34 00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:19.979 It's the 1st 7 Dr. Mel Big finish story. 35 00:03:20.039 --> 00:03:20.639 Ah, okay. 36 00:03:20.699 --> 00:03:21.240 There we go. 37 00:03:21.300 --> 00:03:25.080 So how do we feel about the Pompeii setting? 38 00:03:25.500 --> 00:03:27.960 I have to ask why. 39 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:33.780 Not that I don't like it and I don't think it doesn't work, but it does... 40 00:03:33.780 --> 00:03:55.199 It's an interesting choice to raise this huge dilemma about the doctor's role in history and all that sort of, all that sort of stuff that I'm sure we'll talk about via making what is essentially a slow motion disaster movie where we witness 100s of extras, then, you know, not actually, but it seems like many, all of whom we know are just going to die. 41 00:03:55.560 --> 00:04:00.539 It's a very dark story because they choose that setting of Pompeii. 42 00:04:01.020 --> 00:04:08.639 But also, because there's a sort of tradition of comedy Rome, you know, there's a sort of tonal thing. 43 00:04:08.699 --> 00:04:13.919 I mean, we used to this episode being a romp, you know, being a celebrity historical. 44 00:04:13.979 --> 00:04:30.720 It's interesting what you say, Eric, about the tone of it, because they actually initially had this plan for episode three, that's flipped it with Planet of the Oud because they thought that was a too dark story to have straight after partners in crime. 45 00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:33.720 How did that work out? 46 00:04:34.980 --> 00:04:37.439 But, I mean, do you know what I mean? 47 00:04:37.500 --> 00:04:39.060 This is the Shakespeare code slot. 48 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:40.860 This is the unquiet dead slot. 49 00:04:40.920 --> 00:04:44.879 It's supposed to be kind of a fun romp. 50 00:04:44.939 --> 00:04:46.079 And it sort of is. 51 00:04:46.139 --> 00:05:03.420 I mean, there's a Roman historian, Mary Baird, who talks about how quickly into a sort of Roman pastiche, you mention the fact that Romans eat dormice, you know, and obviously in this episode we lasted maybe about 30 seconds. 52 00:05:03.480 --> 00:05:09.839 But it's a thing that you do because it's one of the comedy things that we know about Romans. 53 00:05:09.959 --> 00:05:22.620 And it's pitched at the kids or at least at the kids who are learning Latin because, of course, Caicilius, Quintus and Metella are the 3 main characters in the Cambridge Latin course. 54 00:05:22.680 --> 00:05:25.319 Um, there's a real Kyculius. 55 00:05:25.379 --> 00:05:26.339 I've been to his house. 56 00:05:26.459 --> 00:05:29.100 He wasn't called Lobus Caicilius. 57 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:31.560 He was called Lucius Caicilius, Yucundus. 58 00:05:31.620 --> 00:05:39.240 He may not have still been alive when the when Pompeii erupted, but it's identified as his house. 59 00:05:40.379 --> 00:05:44.100 And so the kids are all familiar with these people. 60 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:50.879 You know, the kids watching this or anyone who'd learned Latin at school since the 1970s knows these characters. 61 00:05:50.939 --> 00:05:59.160 So there's something sort of fun and familiar and silly about it, but then it ends up turning into this sort of rather horrific moral dilemma. 62 00:05:59.220 --> 00:06:10.259 And that's backed up by the fact that we have Phil Cornwall, as the store holder, right up front to the centre, doing that joke about Donna speaking Welsh. as he's a famous comedian. 63 00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:12.660 I think he goes on to be in horrible histories as well. 64 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:17.339 He used to do a Christopher Eccleston impersonation for Dead Ringers. 65 00:06:17.339 --> 00:06:18.420 That's right, yes. 66 00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:20.040 Yes. how I knew him. 67 00:06:20.100 --> 00:06:22.139 Yeah, very good he was too. 68 00:06:22.199 --> 00:06:25.199 And I think Phil Davis, who's Lucius. 69 00:06:25.259 --> 00:06:28.019 He's got a comedy background as well. 70 00:06:28.079 --> 00:06:28.439 Right. 71 00:06:28.500 --> 00:06:34.860 Yeah, I saw him in the, I was the only person to watch the final series of being human. 72 00:06:34.860 --> 00:06:37.139 Everyone else had stopped watching. 73 00:06:37.199 --> 00:06:38.519 You don't count, James. 74 00:06:39.240 --> 00:06:41.759 And he played the devil in that. 75 00:06:41.819 --> 00:06:43.379 No, he's fantastic. 76 00:06:43.379 --> 00:06:44.639 Yeah, he was really so dark. 77 00:06:44.699 --> 00:06:46.319 Such a bleak ending. 78 00:06:46.379 --> 00:06:46.980 Yeah, yeah. 79 00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:47.819 Oh, yeah, good. 80 00:06:47.819 --> 00:06:49.500 You mean Lucius Petris, of course. 81 00:06:49.560 --> 00:06:50.819 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 82 00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:51.300 Yeah, yeah. 83 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:53.339 Lucia's interesting... 84 00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:57.300 Well, except no one is called that and the Latin is wrong. 85 00:06:59.819 --> 00:07:10.199 This is the thing that irritates me about this episode, and it's ridiculous, and I need you all to tell me how ridiculous I'm being, but all of these things that happen. 86 00:07:10.259 --> 00:07:16.199 All of this sort of Roman stuff that they do is like completely weird and wrong. 87 00:07:16.620 --> 00:07:19.259 The modern art thing doesn't work. 88 00:07:19.319 --> 00:07:20.939 People aren't called the right names. 89 00:07:21.000 --> 00:07:23.699 There's no way the sister would be called Evelina. 90 00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:25.560 No one is called Lobus. 91 00:07:25.620 --> 00:07:30.420 You know, like all of these historical things just annoy me. 92 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:33.420 Did you ruin a reference to City of Death? 93 00:07:33.480 --> 00:07:34.560 Why? 94 00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:34.860 What? 95 00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:36.240 The modern own. 96 00:07:36.300 --> 00:07:37.500 That's what it's a joke. 97 00:07:37.560 --> 00:07:38.879 It's just a city of death joke. 98 00:07:38.939 --> 00:07:47.699 Well, that's the thing, is this is, this isn't an exploration of what life would be like in Pompeii, in, you know, the day before, the volcano inflation. 99 00:07:47.759 --> 00:07:50.279 I mean, the doctor never even mentioned Herculaneum. 100 00:07:50.339 --> 00:07:55.740 No, which is something like because they're thinking, well, the viewer at home won't know it was 2 cities. 101 00:07:55.800 --> 00:07:56.399 Yeah. 102 00:07:56.399 --> 00:07:58.019 Completely destroyed by Pompeii. 103 00:07:58.079 --> 00:07:58.740 So let's not mention it. 104 00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:00.420 But also, God, if Donna finds that out. 105 00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:04.319 Sorry, Erica, there's a whole other city. 106 00:08:04.379 --> 00:08:05.879 She forgot to run around screaming him. 107 00:08:06.120 --> 00:08:15.839 But it is, it's all based on this idea of what the writers and the showrunner think the people at home will think they know about the Roman world. 108 00:08:15.899 --> 00:08:23.699 And so it's the dormouse joke, but it's also, we think Latin names were things like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and we don't know what the actual names were. 109 00:08:23.759 --> 00:08:26.939 And so there's little jokes built into that. 110 00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:35.220 Um, and they, but it is, there's no attempt to actually explore what life would be like at that time. 111 00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:39.779 It's the Romans were modern people or the Pompeians, I guess, were modern people. 112 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:40.799 They just happen to be old. 113 00:08:40.860 --> 00:08:42.360 And that's just not true. 114 00:08:42.419 --> 00:08:48.240 We know that from history, but that's not actually how life was, but they want us to get us into the drama and not be sort of stuck. 115 00:08:48.299 --> 00:08:56.940 And so we think we know everything, and we feel familiar with the world, and we get the little jokes, and we get the name references and whatever, and that's, and that's all we need. 116 00:08:57.000 --> 00:08:59.820 Otherwise, it's not actually at all about Pompeii. 117 00:08:59.879 --> 00:09:02.879 Like, this could be Planet X. Yeah, yeah. 118 00:09:02.940 --> 00:09:21.059 And I think it is, there's a tradition of this that dates back all the way to Dennis Spooner. you know, like if you look at the Romans, for instance, it probably does a better job of the history, but it's not interested in the history it's interested in, in sort of gladiator movies and, you know, menacing Ian with stock footage of a lion. 119 00:09:21.120 --> 00:09:26.399 But that's still when Doctor Who is doing the educating... 120 00:09:26.460 --> 00:09:29.100 Well, I mean, let's look at Shakespeare code. 121 00:09:29.159 --> 00:09:29.759 Do you know what I mean? 122 00:09:29.820 --> 00:09:36.600 We talked about Shakespeare code and and it has virtually no engagement with Shakespeare at all, really. 123 00:09:36.659 --> 00:09:38.940 Yeah, Sexy Shakespearean is perfect teeth, yeah. 124 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:39.840 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 125 00:09:39.899 --> 00:09:40.139 Yeah. 126 00:09:40.200 --> 00:09:48.240 But, you know, like it skirts across the surface of what Shakespeare writes about, you know, in just the most kind of superficial way. 127 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:50.580 Yeah. 128 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:59.220 And I, like, it just irritates me because it could so easily have got it right, but I kind of recognise that that's absolutely not what it's trying to do. 129 00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:03.539 And it's probably not what it should do. 130 00:10:04.379 --> 00:10:06.899 Look, I would agree with that. 131 00:10:06.960 --> 00:10:14.460 Russell T. Davies vision of historicals is, as I think it was Pete said in our Shakespeare code episode, theme park history. 132 00:10:14.519 --> 00:10:15.659 Yeah, yeah. 133 00:10:15.720 --> 00:10:18.539 And that makes it accessible to the audience. 134 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:19.919 The audience does learn something. 135 00:10:19.980 --> 00:10:26.039 And I can entirely understand for historians that that would be annoying. 136 00:10:26.100 --> 00:10:30.899 It's a bit like when I watch a movie and someone is holding a video game controller the wrong way. 137 00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:38.580 But, you know, I accept that and I move on, partly because it's a more niche interest than being a historian. 138 00:10:38.639 --> 00:10:47.039 But also because I have to look at, does the story work on its own terms, even if it has to take some liberties. 139 00:10:47.100 --> 00:10:55.019 And just last week, Nicola Tesla's Night of Terror was criticised for, you know, being historically inaccurate in places. 140 00:10:55.019 --> 00:11:03.840 And it's just like, oh, I'm sorry, I'll pull up middle-aged Nero as this as this bastion of historical accuracy. 141 00:11:03.899 --> 00:11:04.980 Yeah. 142 00:11:05.039 --> 00:11:16.500 So having said that as somebody who's studied history, who has a history degree, I find that really irritating when I know that history, and I think this is what you're getting at, Nathan, isn't it? 143 00:11:16.559 --> 00:11:24.360 Like, when I know that history and and that culture, because I've, you know, as much as we can in the modern era. 144 00:11:25.019 --> 00:11:29.580 It takes me out of the drama when I, that's historically inaccurate. 145 00:11:29.639 --> 00:11:34.080 I know most of the people watching are not going to have that reaction, but I do. 146 00:11:34.139 --> 00:11:39.360 Well, I mean, the show sort of telegraphs that it's not interested in historical accuracy. 147 00:11:39.419 --> 00:11:42.240 In a way that Nicola Tesla's Night of Terror doesn't. 148 00:11:42.299 --> 00:11:50.879 You know, it is trying to show us a sort of underappreciated or until recently underappreciated historical figure. 149 00:11:50.940 --> 00:11:59.639 And, you know, the Chibnall historicals tend to have more ambition than sort of theme park history. 150 00:11:59.759 --> 00:12:13.620 But this telegraphs are theme park history with the jokes about Spartacus with, you know, having a servant called rhombus, you know, like all of that sort of stuff is just very deliberately silly. 151 00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:15.480 Oh, and they're playing it as comedy. 152 00:12:15.539 --> 00:12:30.779 Yeah, even after they work out where they are, they're still playing it as comedy, until the moment that Donna realises that the doctor is not going to save anyone, because he can't change established events. 153 00:12:31.620 --> 00:12:33.120 Yeah. 154 00:12:33.179 --> 00:12:38.100 So I guess maybe now is the time to think about that. 155 00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:45.120 This is the 1st time that we have fixed points in time mentioned. 156 00:12:45.179 --> 00:12:48.059 Can't change history, not one line. 157 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:51.240 Yeah, so that's in the Aztecs. 158 00:12:51.299 --> 00:12:54.600 And we don't know what that means. 159 00:12:54.659 --> 00:13:00.179 Is that a moral stricture or is it a sort of physics kind of restriction? 160 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:08.940 They never make an attempt, though, in any time in the classic run to essentially say that history can't be changed. 161 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:15.000 So I think we have to believe, even if that's not what they've been at the time, we have to believe the 1st doctor means, I won't let you. 162 00:13:15.059 --> 00:13:16.379 Yeah, you can't. 163 00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:20.100 You're not allowed. because they clearly do change history. 164 00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:25.200 I mean, Atlock leaves and, you know, all these other things that they play around with in history. 165 00:13:25.259 --> 00:13:26.759 It doesn't affect big picture stuff. 166 00:13:26.820 --> 00:13:27.960 It doesn't affect small picture stuff. 167 00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:31.440 And can they affect big picture stuff? 168 00:13:31.500 --> 00:13:32.639 Do we think that's ever happened? 169 00:13:33.059 --> 00:13:39.059 So, you know, the Fendal can come back and do it, or but that doesn't change history. 170 00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:40.860 That's sort of part of established history. 171 00:13:40.919 --> 00:13:44.220 Like, can you can, does the doctor ever actually change history? 172 00:13:44.700 --> 00:13:49.019 Only to actually make it be the history that we've already... 173 00:13:49.080 --> 00:13:58.440 Such as if we look at the visitation, where without without the doctor's involvement, we wouldn't have the Great Fire of London and the doctor immediately goes, right, I'm getting out of here. 174 00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:08.039 I'm actually in the process of writing a series of videos from my YouTube channel called How Does Time Travel work in Doctor Who and looking at how it evolves. 175 00:14:08.100 --> 00:14:17.879 And yes, I've absolutely come to the conclusion, Eric, you're right, that in the 1st doctor's era, at the very least, not changing history is a moral rather than physical imperative. 176 00:14:17.940 --> 00:14:18.659 Right. 177 00:14:18.659 --> 00:14:29.220 But it also implies that a human sent back in time does not have the power to change history, whereas time lords do. 178 00:14:29.460 --> 00:14:38.639 And I think part of the doctor's struggle unstated is that, you know, he tells Donna, I can't change this because horrible things will happen. 179 00:14:38.700 --> 00:14:42.539 But the other thing is, he's like, I am still making that choice. 180 00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:47.340 I could still try, and if I try, it would be a terrible thing because these other things wouldn't happen. 181 00:14:47.399 --> 00:14:50.100 But is that a problem for the show? 182 00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:51.299 Like, is that a problem? 183 00:14:51.360 --> 00:15:01.620 Because as far as I'm aware, there are no actual moral issues with changing history. 184 00:15:02.220 --> 00:15:10.799 Well, the thing is, the show neatly avoids that by having them have to blow up the volcano in order to stop the pyroviles. 185 00:15:10.860 --> 00:15:16.320 So it leaves hanging. how far the doctor would be willing to go to change this. 186 00:15:16.379 --> 00:15:20.580 But don't you, I think I think there's a huge, huge problem here. 187 00:15:20.700 --> 00:15:24.000 And so the problem is, and the problem is recognised. 188 00:15:24.059 --> 00:15:24.720 Do you know what I mean? 189 00:15:24.779 --> 00:15:27.659 It's not, it's not, um... unrecognised? 190 00:15:27.720 --> 00:15:30.960 Well, it's not kind of just skated over, is it? 191 00:15:31.019 --> 00:15:50.820 It's the problem is that the doctor has to decide to let 20,000 people die in order to obey a stricture that is a complete science fiction stricture that has no real world analogue as far as I can tell. 192 00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:53.820 So it's not a real moral decision that he has to make. 193 00:15:53.879 --> 00:15:56.039 Until waters of Mars. 194 00:15:56.159 --> 00:16:02.580 And I think that's RTT gets very obsessed with this idea of the fixed points in time and what happens when you try to screw with them. 195 00:16:02.580 --> 00:16:12.240 And his answer is, no, the fixed points are fixed points, if you think you interfere with them, you just make things worse or you get blood on your hands directly. 196 00:16:12.299 --> 00:16:22.320 So here in Fires of Pompeii, yeah, the doctor could try to interfere, but then anything that happens is his fault as opposed to how history played out. 197 00:16:22.379 --> 00:16:25.620 And so I think it's about abdicating moral responsibility. 198 00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:26.639 I'm not saying it's good. 199 00:16:26.700 --> 00:16:28.980 But I'm saying I think that's the position the show takes. 200 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:31.500 Because you've got this. here the problem, right? 201 00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:34.620 The doctor's allowed to change and Donna calls him out on it. 202 00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:37.200 You know, like the show actually confronts it head on. 203 00:16:37.259 --> 00:16:39.179 In the present, the doctor can do anything. 204 00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:41.220 He's not, do you know what I mean? 205 00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:46.440 He never says the Slovene are a fixed point in time, so I'm afraid we just have to let this happen or whatever. 206 00:16:46.500 --> 00:16:49.919 It never happens in the far future either. 207 00:16:49.980 --> 00:16:52.320 It only seems to happen in Earth's past. 208 00:16:52.379 --> 00:16:58.740 And maybe that's part of what's clever about Waters of Mars, is setting it in the near future and having a fixed point in time there. 209 00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:12.180 But so it is why can the doctor overthrow the racist regime in the savages, but she can't overthrow the racist regime in Alabama? 210 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:13.319 Do you know what I mean? 211 00:17:13.380 --> 00:17:15.839 Like, like, it's a big problem, I think. 212 00:17:15.900 --> 00:17:21.299 And it makes the historicals bad drama in a way, I think. 213 00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:29.039 Yeah, because the moral, the moral quandary in this story is turned into a trolly problem. 214 00:17:29.099 --> 00:17:37.319 It's 20,000 people here. or it is James is bouncing up and down, so I think he can finish my point. 215 00:17:37.380 --> 00:17:41.160 It's 20,000 people here or... 216 00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:44.160 What, like a 100,000 somewhere else? 217 00:17:44.220 --> 00:17:46.259 No, it's, you know, 1000000s of people. 218 00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:47.700 The entire human race. 219 00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:51.660 Yeah, no, I was just really excited that you've got onto the good place. 220 00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:55.859 But yeah, good place to not event for Charlie, bro. 221 00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:58.920 No, I know, but I've just rewatched that episode. 222 00:17:59.220 --> 00:18:02.339 But yeah, it turns it into a trolly problem. 223 00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:13.380 So that the doctor's choice is understandable by the audience, you know, because suddenly we at home are affected because we will never have been born if this happens. 224 00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:16.680 It also means that Donna can become complicit in it. 225 00:18:16.740 --> 00:18:29.819 So because it becomes a straightforward moral decision, it's not a decision, 20,000 people or this magical rule that I just made up, it's 20,000 people or 1000000s of people. 226 00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:33.059 And that looks like a more straightforward kind of moral decision. 227 00:18:33.180 --> 00:18:36.119 I think it probably is, you know, just given the scale of it. 228 00:18:36.180 --> 00:18:39.960 But, you know, the trolly problem isn't that straightforward. 229 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:49.079 And you, you know, there are all those sort of analogous situations where our instinct is actually no, we can't save the greater number of people. 230 00:18:49.140 --> 00:19:01.440 You can't pluck someone from a waiting room and implant their liver and kidneys and lungs and heart into 5 other sick people just at random, even though the kind of moral calculus in a sense is the same. 231 00:19:01.500 --> 00:19:10.920 And I think that Doctor Who doesn't do utilitarianism, that that's not the doctor's general moral code. 232 00:19:10.980 --> 00:19:20.819 Well, it was, I think, or at least it was part of the doctor's character in the RTD era, and I think it's something that Moffat rebelled against. meeting today of the doctor. 233 00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:26.220 Yeah. where he's like, no, there's never a justification for something like that. 234 00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:37.380 But I was just going to say, what's interesting to me about this moral question is, once you get them in the little pod, okay, it's the 20,000 versus all of human history. 235 00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:37.859 It's fine. 236 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:39.599 Easy but still stupid. 237 00:19:39.660 --> 00:19:47.339 The question is how you get to the point where Donna's raises a very good idea about why don't we just tell people to leave town? 238 00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:49.019 Just leave? 239 00:19:49.140 --> 00:19:56.940 Like, would, would, would it really destroy the fabric of human history if 100 people, like, he's not even going to save the family? 240 00:19:57.000 --> 00:19:58.500 There's 4 idiots. 241 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:02.819 You're not even going to save them until she's crying off her makeup in the TARDIS. 242 00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:08.819 So at a certain point, maybe he has bad memories of year 7 Latin lessons. 243 00:20:09.180 --> 00:20:12.839 I love that in Britain, people still study Latin. charming. 244 00:20:21.900 --> 00:20:25.859 Yeah, yeah, I mean, that is absolutely inexplicable, isn't it? 245 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:31.680 And that scene, can we just say that Catherine Tate is just amazingly brilliant in that scene. 246 00:20:31.740 --> 00:20:48.180 And this is, you know, we saw her in Runaway Bride, and we saw her just gradually ramping the performance down and humanising it from being sort of really kind of loud and bleary and blustery, and she becomes quite introspective. 247 00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:51.299 And it's very clear from runaway bride that she's a very good actor. 248 00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:56.339 And then, you know, last week, it was all kind of fun and games and stuff. 249 00:20:56.400 --> 00:21:00.599 But this time, you know, she's going to do this a lot this season, I think. 250 00:21:00.660 --> 00:21:09.000 But the fact that she is a surprisingly compassionate person and is just played so well by Catherine Tade. 251 00:21:09.059 --> 00:21:27.359 It's really something Yeah, we, I don't think, I'm not saying we wouldn't care, but, um, the amount to which Donna is outraged by what the doctor is doing and the amount to which Donna, the scene where she talks to the kid and then the mother comes and takes the kid. 252 00:21:27.539 --> 00:21:31.799 It's, I mean, I lose it because... 253 00:21:31.859 --> 00:21:32.579 It is. 254 00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:36.660 The last 5 minutes of this is the doctor and Donna failing to save 1000s of people. 255 00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:42.240 That is what happens in this story is they have set off the chain reaction and they are unable to save them. 256 00:21:42.299 --> 00:21:43.559 Every time. 257 00:21:43.619 --> 00:21:44.759 It's devastating. 258 00:21:44.819 --> 00:21:48.720 Yeah, I just, I end up in tears when I watch this episode every time. 259 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:50.220 Like, it's, I don't know why. 260 00:21:50.279 --> 00:22:06.839 I mean, because parts of it are really broad comedy, but like you hit that last sort of 5 to 10 minutes and you know the whole thing is inevitable and she starts to really lose the plot over what's going to happen. 261 00:22:06.900 --> 00:22:08.759 And I just start crying. 262 00:22:08.819 --> 00:22:24.059 The other moment is where they're standing on the heel watching the, you know, the smoke and ash roll over Pompeii. and Capoldi goes all those people and his voice catches. 263 00:22:24.180 --> 00:22:32.339 And it is just that you've got these incredible actors because, you know, you know, is it too soon to make jokes about Pompeii? 264 00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:35.039 I mean, it's 2000 years ago. 265 00:22:35.099 --> 00:22:36.480 It's very easy not to care. 266 00:22:36.539 --> 00:22:37.500 Do you know what I mean? 267 00:22:37.559 --> 00:22:57.299 There was people were sharing a story with me just this week as we record. where they found the body of someone, people sheltered on the waterfront at Herculaneum, which is now, obviously, several kilometres from the modern day waterfront, but you can sort of go down there and see these places where people were sheltering. 268 00:22:57.359 --> 00:23:16.200 And um, And the pyroclastic surge was so hot that his internal organs were all sort of gellified and his brain was turned to glass. you know, and everyone was sort of saying, that's a really kind of amazingly interesting thing, and I do want to sort of share that around. 269 00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:26.640 But I think it's very easy to just not care. that that was a person, that they were people terrified, who had no idea what was happening. 270 00:23:26.700 --> 00:23:35.819 And another thing, it takes hours, that column of ash, which goes kilometres into the air and weighs, you know, 1000000s of tons. 271 00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:40.920 It starts to collapse hours and hours after its 1st scene. 272 00:23:40.980 --> 00:23:43.319 So this whole thing takes a very long time. 273 00:23:43.380 --> 00:23:48.900 And then gradually, you know, the surges happen and all these people are just horribly killed. 274 00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:52.680 There's plenty of time for people to fear and panic. 275 00:23:52.740 --> 00:23:54.180 Oh, look, a lot of people evacuated. 276 00:23:54.240 --> 00:23:54.839 Do you know what I mean? 277 00:23:54.900 --> 00:23:58.200 Pompey's population was well in excess of 20,000 people. 278 00:23:58.259 --> 00:23:59.579 People were able to get out. 279 00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:03.059 But because it's so long ago, we don't care. 280 00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:10.619 And it was, for me, what was fun or what was worthwhile about the episode was being forced to care about those people. 281 00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:23.099 We, yeah, we care about the family because we've spent time with them, they all get something to do in the story, they all get time with the doctor or Donna or both. 282 00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:24.180 We get. 283 00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:30.779 I think one of the most charming bits in the whole episode is when the doctor convinces Quintus to help him break into Lucius's house. 284 00:24:32.339 --> 00:24:45.420 It means that when we get to that last scene, I don't think we've ever had a situation like that with a one-time family in the show where we have bonded with them as viewers so much. 285 00:24:45.420 --> 00:24:48.960 Also, we've had an extra 8 minutes to do that. 286 00:24:49.019 --> 00:24:49.799 Yeah. 287 00:24:49.799 --> 00:24:51.779 This is like a very long episode. 288 00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:53.940 It was 50 minutes long on original Broadway. 289 00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:54.180 Right. 290 00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:54.720 Right, right. 291 00:24:54.779 --> 00:24:58.680 Well, it uses the time very well then, because I didn't I didn't feel that. 292 00:24:58.740 --> 00:24:59.819 You know what I mean? 293 00:24:59.880 --> 00:25:01.680 feels like a regular length episode. 294 00:25:01.740 --> 00:25:09.240 Well, what they do is they, they, they, Yeah, give you all that time with the family at the expense of time with the villain. 295 00:25:09.299 --> 00:25:14.400 I mean, we have the few scenes with Petristectris. 296 00:25:14.460 --> 00:25:18.059 Um, but, I mean, who are the pirate files? 297 00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:19.440 We don't care. 298 00:25:19.500 --> 00:25:20.039 We never care. 299 00:25:20.099 --> 00:25:23.279 We never remotely care about them as big fire monsters. 300 00:25:23.339 --> 00:25:25.019 Um, and that's fine. 301 00:25:25.079 --> 00:25:35.039 I'm not saying that's criticism, but they deliberately wait the episode towards making you care about these people to the point where you kind of forget for moments at a time, they're all going to die tomorrow. 302 00:25:35.099 --> 00:25:36.059 Yeah. 303 00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:36.720 Yeah. 304 00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:40.619 Like, you know, the doctor's doing his thing investigating the aliens and what's going on. 305 00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:47.400 It almost makes you wonder like, well, doctor, if that, if, you know, Pompeii is happening tomorrow, why don't you just let him get burned to death? 306 00:25:47.460 --> 00:25:49.559 Oh, aliens die, fine. 307 00:25:49.619 --> 00:25:50.700 It is? 308 00:25:50.759 --> 00:25:55.079 I mean, it is very strange, and it is that scene where he just walks past them. 309 00:25:55.140 --> 00:25:58.319 Um, into the Tartars. 310 00:25:58.440 --> 00:26:05.160 And he's so determined not to rescue them at the end that he starts to take off even before Donna gets on board. 311 00:26:05.220 --> 00:26:16.619 You know, like it's it's a principle that is worth or worth sacrificing Donna for if he has to, you know. 312 00:26:16.680 --> 00:26:18.539 And what is that? 313 00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:19.799 What even is that? 314 00:26:20.339 --> 00:26:22.380 It seems ridiculous. 315 00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:25.079 And then he just sort of breaks... 316 00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:25.980 Get in. 317 00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:26.519 Yeah, yeah. 318 00:26:26.579 --> 00:26:28.440 But it is very strange. 319 00:26:28.500 --> 00:26:33.660 And it's, you know, like, I'm not sure why, why it's there. 320 00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:42.059 The new series loves to do this whole the TARDIS starting to dematerialise before the doors are closed thing as a hurry up hurry up thing. 321 00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:44.220 No, no, no, but I mean the scene of him just walking past. 322 00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:46.079 You know, like, why does he do that? 323 00:26:46.140 --> 00:26:48.599 You know, as I guess we said before. 324 00:26:48.779 --> 00:26:55.200 What would be wrong with ringing a big bell and getting them all into the amphitheatre and telling them to leave? 325 00:26:55.259 --> 00:26:58.079 The doctor says it doesn't work and sure that's fine. 326 00:26:58.259 --> 00:27:21.660 I mean, that's very much the David Whitaker view of how history works because we get a brief discussion of it at the end of reign of terror and we get it in his novelisation of the crusade where pretty much the characters say you could slip Robespierre a note saying he's going to be deposed and he would think it came from the hand of a madman. 327 00:27:21.779 --> 00:27:31.859 You could, you know, you could chuck a boulder in the river to stem the river, but the pressure will build up and it will just go round the rock. why doesn't that apply now? 328 00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:37.740 Why doesn't that apply when the doctor is, you know, in Gloucester in 2020? 329 00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:40.799 Why why is that it any different? 330 00:27:40.859 --> 00:27:53.099 It just seems, I think the problem with coming up with a definitive answer for that in the context of writing the show is that you would break the show. 331 00:27:53.160 --> 00:28:01.259 You would have to say we cannot have any more adventures in history, or you would have to say nothing the characters do matter. 332 00:28:01.319 --> 00:28:08.220 So you have to find a balance of it, and it's not a healthy balance by any means, but it's a balance that... 333 00:28:08.220 --> 00:28:17.579 I'm not I'm not even sure you could say it stands up to scrutiny, but it's more, if you accept at face value what the characters say, it works. 334 00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:25.380 You remember when we were talking about tooth and claw and having Queen Victoria die at the end. 335 00:28:25.500 --> 00:28:32.700 And we can't do that because then Doctor Who stops being in the world that we're in or something. 336 00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:43.799 Like, it seems to be just a sort of, it's an aesthetic choice to have the doctor not interfere with the kind of history that the viewers are aware of. 337 00:28:43.859 --> 00:28:46.559 But I will interject, though. 338 00:28:46.619 --> 00:29:01.140 There is the time where RTD made the meth and then he either deliberately made the meth so that he could clean it up in an interesting way or he fixed his own mistake, quote unquote mistake, even though it wasn't our history, which is the Christmas invasion. 339 00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:09.059 And him bringing down Harriet Jones, who is supposed to lead Britain to the Golden Age, all those such of things, and be much longer in her proposed. 340 00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:13.079 Him bringing her down makes the vacuum in history that the master fills. 341 00:29:13.140 --> 00:29:14.279 Yeah. 342 00:29:14.339 --> 00:29:20.579 So there is some sense that RTD keeps going back to that you need to be really careful with it. 343 00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:22.619 It's not that it can't be done. 344 00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:25.140 It's that when the doctor is stupid, he does it badly. 345 00:29:25.259 --> 00:29:29.099 And when he's acting out of emotion or anger, he does it badly. 346 00:29:29.160 --> 00:29:44.039 And I think we're meant to think that's why Tenant, the 10th doctor here, is so hesitant to say if anyone, is because he'd be doing it purely from emotional concerns, but he never articulates why he can't save just these people. 347 00:29:44.099 --> 00:29:45.660 He never says. 348 00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:57.000 He never says, well, what do I know that Quintus one day will go up and he will kill Galba, and you know, whatever, and the whole history of Roman Empire will be different and blah, blah. 349 00:29:57.059 --> 00:29:58.140 He never does anything like that. 350 00:29:58.200 --> 00:30:00.119 He just sort of doesn't help anyone. 351 00:30:00.299 --> 00:30:07.319 Well, like I like to think that the doctor's saving the family is actually what creates the Cambridge Latin text. 352 00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:17.700 But it also, it's interestingly enough, it leads to a whole family worshipping them as gods, which is an interesting thing. 353 00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:18.299 I like it. 354 00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:20.279 It's a fun note, I think, to end on. 355 00:30:20.339 --> 00:30:25.200 But at the same time, it's like, okay, does Quintus raise his kids to worship these people on their blue box? 356 00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:31.019 That seems like a dangerous trace to leave in history. especially considering he says to them, I was never here. 357 00:30:31.079 --> 00:30:33.420 He does the whole frontios nonsense. 358 00:30:33.539 --> 00:30:44.759 Yeah, I mean, you wonder whether I think maybe we were left wondering whether that would pay off, you know, that thing at the end, but I mean, I guess you hand wave it. 359 00:30:44.819 --> 00:30:46.500 Just the household gods of one family. 360 00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:47.460 Do you know what I mean? 361 00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:49.500 it doesn't matter all that much. 362 00:30:49.559 --> 00:30:55.500 It does actually, I don't know if it's conscious, but it does actually tie in with the fires of Vulcan. 363 00:30:55.559 --> 00:31:03.539 The big finish play because the fires of Vulcan starts with finding a fossilised impression of the Tartars in the ruins of Pompeii. 364 00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:14.460 Not only that, but earlier on in the 80s, in the Dwim comics, during the Stars fell on Stockbridge comic arc, they find a fossilised impression of the Tartar Underground somewhere. 365 00:31:14.519 --> 00:31:19.619 Russell T. Davies would at least know about the big finish play, very possibly the comic as well. 366 00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:25.619 So it's a nice touch to imagine that that would be found, you know, 2000 years later. 367 00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:29.460 It's kind of funny, you know, that we don't see it in the black archive or something. 368 00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:30.359 You know? 369 00:31:30.420 --> 00:31:35.880 It'd just be a nice little nod, but I suppose maybe they maybe they don't want to think about that. 370 00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:42.599 It's a little bit like the blue box in the stained glass window in the end of time, part one. 371 00:31:42.660 --> 00:31:48.539 Like, I guess we might have been left expecting it to sort of come back in some way. 372 00:31:48.599 --> 00:31:55.680 And I actually like the, quite like the way that Quintus plays that. where, you know, the household gods. 373 00:31:55.740 --> 00:32:04.619 One of the things, you know, you said earlier, Eric, that these are just modern people, but they're wearing togas, not that they seem to know what togas are, but whatever. 374 00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:07.140 No, Dunn is wearing a dress. 375 00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:08.519 Yeah, diamond dress. 376 00:32:08.579 --> 00:32:12.420 Women did not wear togas, hold on your... 377 00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:31.259 Um, but I guess they needed to put the word toga in just to kind of tick off their Roman tropes, you know, um, because the thing is that they believe in uh, fortune telling and so saying and they believe that things are caused by the gods and stuff in a way that we don't. 378 00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:36.539 And it's dealt with sort of weirdly, I think, here. 379 00:32:36.779 --> 00:32:58.680 I must say, I do love the soothsayer rap battle. between Lucius and Evelina and especially how it starts off with just both of them insulting the doctor and Donna and then gets really seriously dramatic and the lighting changes. 380 00:32:58.740 --> 00:33:02.279 Like, it goes all fiery and whatnot. 381 00:33:02.339 --> 00:33:03.779 And as she faints, it fades away. 382 00:33:03.839 --> 00:33:05.460 It's like, 0 my god, that was diagetic. 383 00:33:05.700 --> 00:33:07.079 Yeah. 384 00:33:07.140 --> 00:33:08.819 No, that scene is, of course, brilliant. 385 00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:14.099 But I do think they kind of, the thing, they want to have their cake and eat it too. 386 00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:24.480 They need these people to be superstitious and focussed on, you know, the Roman deities as the modern viewer might understand them. 387 00:33:24.539 --> 00:33:27.240 But at the same time, they need them to be just folks. 388 00:33:27.480 --> 00:33:39.900 And so we get this really odd, I think, combination that doesn't necessarily work of like the modern art joke and get me a dormant, all those, all those sort of things that make them seem like modern humans. 389 00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:49.799 And her son, her being proud of her son, the doctor, which no, you would not have been, um, combined with, yeah, that's not a good thing. 390 00:33:49.859 --> 00:34:01.859 Um, combined with, oh, but they need to be, you know, they need to be modern people who just happen to still believe in the gods of ancient Rome, um, and have tremendous superstition. 391 00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:04.680 And they don't quite thread the needle perfectly, I think. 392 00:34:04.740 --> 00:34:13.320 I think it would have been much better to drop the sort of their just folks angle and just have them be show us how alien the past is. 393 00:34:13.380 --> 00:34:15.780 And have them be different people. 394 00:34:16.019 --> 00:34:35.280 Certainly the very, very 1st historical in the new series doesn't seem to do that and is about the different types of intellectual worlds that these people inhabit, you know, that Gwyneth is in a very different world than rose is. 395 00:34:35.400 --> 00:34:54.179 But do you think that's because the Victorian era is so close to the time we live in now and so familiar to the British viewing public that you want to play out sea watching British viewing public is you know what the Victorian period is. 396 00:34:54.239 --> 00:34:58.079 So you can't really fiddle with that in the same way. 397 00:34:58.260 --> 00:35:17.340 But I think that often, you know, Victorian English people are just us with waxed moustaches and sort of sticks up our butts, having that religious element played up and partly because you're doing Charles Dickens and the way his worldview changes throughout the episode as well. 398 00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:29.400 Whereas here, the comedy is, like it is funny that they have our concerns because we kind of know that they don't in the way that the Shakespeare code worked as well. 399 00:35:29.460 --> 00:35:53.880 And that's a very deliberate creative choice by the showrunners and the, like, and the people involved, like, They stated that many times that, you know, people in the past should be us, but, you know, but in silly dresses and, you know, I think Casanova was the 1st time I saw it happen. 400 00:35:53.940 --> 00:35:55.079 RTD's Casanova. 401 00:35:55.139 --> 00:35:57.300 That's very much a Russell kind of trope. 402 00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:01.440 Like people back then are just like us now. 403 00:36:01.500 --> 00:36:05.400 And it's his shorthand to get you into the drama. 404 00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:11.460 Sometimes that doesn't work so well and sometimes that makes things less than believable. 405 00:36:11.699 --> 00:36:16.980 It's like you were saying earlier, Eric, like, there could be Zog monsters from the planet, Zog. 406 00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:21.659 You know, but as Russell says, we don't care about Zog Monks. the planet Zog. 407 00:36:21.719 --> 00:36:24.059 We care about the human colonists on the planet Zog. 408 00:36:24.179 --> 00:36:25.980 Super racist. 409 00:36:26.039 --> 00:36:27.119 Super racist. 410 00:36:27.179 --> 00:36:28.500 Absolutely super racist. 411 00:36:28.500 --> 00:36:32.880 I've been having a lot of fun recently rewatching Star Trek Voyager. 412 00:36:32.940 --> 00:36:33.539 You have? 413 00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:36.840 And yeah, there's a lot of, yeah, I know, fun. 414 00:36:36.900 --> 00:36:37.500 It can be done. 415 00:36:38.219 --> 00:36:50.880 Well, look, it's not as bad as my very serious 15-year-old self found it, but there is so much racism towards Tuvok there, which is passed off as comedy. 416 00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:53.699 Yeah, that's a feature of original Star Trek as well. 417 00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:59.880 Oh, God, like this is the 1st time Rod's watching original Star Trek because as a kid, he's like, nah, I lost in space. 418 00:36:59.940 --> 00:37:01.920 I want to watch Lost in Space. the same type. 419 00:37:01.980 --> 00:37:05.400 So I'm suffering lost in space when he's suffering original Star Trek. 420 00:37:05.460 --> 00:37:08.340 But yeah, every time McCoy really gets stuck into Spock. 421 00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:10.079 Rod's like, well, that's just mead. 422 00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:14.099 You know, and quite frankly, it is sometimes. 423 00:37:26.820 --> 00:37:36.780 I was just thinking about a point, someone made earlier, with doctors not being held in the higher esteem back then as they are now. 424 00:37:36.780 --> 00:37:40.980 And I'm just trying to think of a way to rationalise that. 425 00:37:41.159 --> 00:37:52.260 And I suppose it would be that it's not so much that, oh, he's a doctor in the modern sense that you'll be very proud of your child becoming a doctor, it's he's following the path of the household god. 426 00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:53.760 Oh, yeah, yeah. 427 00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:58.260 Like, we're meant to read it that he's been inspired by the doctor to become a doctor. 428 00:37:58.320 --> 00:38:04.980 But in sort of no ancient Roman context is being a doctor, something that you would want a freeborn Roman to do. 429 00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:18.719 Yeah, but the thing is, they're like, oh, in a way, you know, you're taking this noble calling because it's a household god, even though it's not something impressive. you know, no one else will think it's impressive, but we understand why you're doing this. 430 00:38:18.780 --> 00:38:23.519 But in fact that he's just taking a modern attitude and sticking it there so that we can... 431 00:38:23.639 --> 00:38:23.940 Yeah, yeah. 432 00:38:24.059 --> 00:38:25.079 Because you works with that. 433 00:38:25.139 --> 00:38:27.900 I'm right down to Evelina going out in the too short. 434 00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:28.920 I mean, for God's sake. 435 00:38:28.980 --> 00:38:30.539 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 436 00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:31.800 I actually really like it. 437 00:38:31.860 --> 00:38:41.219 I like that the fact that Quintus is hung over when we 1st see him and he's been at the Thermopoleon the night before and drinking and whatever. 438 00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:52.920 And then he's sort of a serious good boy, whereas Evelina, who had to be, you know, all religious and Sibylline and stuff, then gets to be a party girl afterwards. 439 00:38:53.039 --> 00:38:55.260 And I think that's really actually quite. 440 00:38:55.320 --> 00:38:56.519 That's a nice reversal. 441 00:38:56.579 --> 00:39:00.599 Yeah, but I just mean like the attitude is very absurd. 442 00:39:00.659 --> 00:39:02.039 Especially the hangover. 443 00:39:02.099 --> 00:39:02.699 Yeah, legit. 444 00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:03.659 Roman's got drunk a lot. 445 00:39:03.719 --> 00:39:05.880 So entirely possible that he would have a hangover. 446 00:39:05.940 --> 00:39:09.539 Uh, and he'd be eating like canary brains for it or something, if you believe plenty. 447 00:39:09.599 --> 00:39:17.699 Um, But it's, I think, I think what always irks me about this, and this is not a thing fires of Pompeii does individually. 448 00:39:17.820 --> 00:39:24.659 I think, I think we diminish and demean the past when we pretend it's the present in funny costumes. 449 00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:25.679 Yeah. 450 00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:27.360 And I think it has its own culture. 451 00:39:27.420 --> 00:39:33.300 Yeah, it has its own, they were different people as one of my favourite professors at university said. 452 00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:37.860 Um, you know, people didn't used to think differently, but they thought about different things. 453 00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:43.980 And I, you might even quibble with the 1st part, but they certainly would not have thought about the same things. 454 00:39:44.039 --> 00:39:46.320 They valued different things than we do. 455 00:39:46.380 --> 00:39:49.199 And so their entire lives were structured differently. 456 00:39:49.500 --> 00:39:50.880 Yeah. 457 00:39:50.880 --> 00:40:01.500 And I think why bother exploring history, if it's just going to be about funny costumes and interesting sets and going to Chinichita, if it's not going to be about exploring what it means to be in the past. 458 00:40:02.099 --> 00:40:08.099 Do you think the show ever does that or as spies to do that? 459 00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:10.800 I don't think the show does. 460 00:40:10.860 --> 00:40:16.920 I think I think the the medium or the the sort of uh, uh, franchise of Doctor Who does. 461 00:40:16.980 --> 00:40:26.940 I think some of the novels do that very deliberately where they actively try to explore the past and what it would be like to live in the past or different cultures. 462 00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:37.260 I'm thinking some of the Kate Orman books, like Room with No Doors, that said in like feudal Japan, and is very much about like, feudal Japan is not like England, which I think is good and interesting. 463 00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:40.139 Um, and other another of the novels do it. 464 00:40:40.199 --> 00:40:42.420 I'm not sure if any of the big finish really bother with that. 465 00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:45.360 I think they tend to take Boy's book of history approach to things. 466 00:40:45.420 --> 00:40:49.679 Um, And I think maybe some of the Hartnell ones too as well. 467 00:40:49.739 --> 00:40:54.360 Kind of some of the serious Hartnell ones do actually attempt to explore what history is like. 468 00:40:54.659 --> 00:40:59.219 But I mean, for them, I think it's a source of unusual threats. 469 00:40:59.280 --> 00:41:21.000 So when Hartnell's history is not doing the romp that the new series does, it's creating, you know, strange unusual situations for them to be threatened by and to escape from, I'm not super convinced that it properly engages with the past. 470 00:41:21.480 --> 00:41:33.840 One that does for me from big finish, and it's funny you say big boy's book of history, because I'm going to talk about a woman, Carolyn Simcox, who writes the Council of Nicea. 471 00:41:33.900 --> 00:41:34.739 Oh, yeah. 472 00:41:34.739 --> 00:41:43.739 And I don't know if she also writes Son of the Dragon, but those are 2 that are pure historicals. 473 00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:51.659 They use the character of Eramim and compare her reactions to Perry to what we would consider history. 474 00:41:51.780 --> 00:42:10.320 And the Council of Nicea is so focussed on the politics of the time, without any science fictional elements. that I think it's one that actually does embrace what you're talking about and showing the past as it really was rather than a filter of what we think it was and the horrible histories version. 475 00:42:10.619 --> 00:42:13.980 I tend to agree with you on that, Brendan. 476 00:42:14.039 --> 00:42:17.579 Like it's one of the better early, early now. 477 00:42:17.639 --> 00:42:20.519 Yeah, yeah. was still around number 70 or something. 478 00:42:20.579 --> 00:42:24.000 Um, as opposed to number 235. 479 00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:25.260 What have we got to do now? 480 00:42:25.320 --> 00:42:28.079 It's yeah, it does it really well. 481 00:42:28.139 --> 00:42:32.880 I was really impressed with that. and also heartbreaking what happens in it as well. 482 00:42:32.940 --> 00:42:35.760 Let's not talk about that because we're talking about Pizer Pop. 483 00:42:35.820 --> 00:42:44.460 Yeah, but I think it's, I do think it's, um, it's history being used as backdrop because of all of recognised Pompeii. 484 00:42:44.519 --> 00:42:49.619 Pompeii being used because they want us to get to the heart of the moral decision quickly. 485 00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:56.639 It's a story written around having the doctor make that choice. 486 00:42:56.760 --> 00:43:01.980 And him showing us, that's what it means to be the time lord, the only one left. 487 00:43:02.039 --> 00:43:03.960 And him showing Donna. 488 00:43:04.019 --> 00:43:05.579 That what it means to be the time lord. anyone left. 489 00:43:05.699 --> 00:43:08.280 And also giving Donna a role. 490 00:43:08.340 --> 00:43:12.780 You know, like making, yeah, like reestablishing that Donna's role is to pull him back from that. 491 00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:13.679 Yes. 492 00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:18.840 To bring us back to that moment in a Christmas invasion, not Christmas invasion, Runaway bride. 493 00:43:18.900 --> 00:43:23.880 Yeah, where they, where she, he drowns all the baby Raknuff. nice. 494 00:43:23.940 --> 00:43:25.619 Well, you flush spiders down the sink. 495 00:43:25.739 --> 00:43:26.460 That's what you did. 496 00:43:26.940 --> 00:43:29.340 And their cousin, the scorpions. 497 00:43:30.119 --> 00:43:37.380 But yeah, it does feel like they had this idea for we want the doctor to have this moral choice. 498 00:43:37.679 --> 00:43:44.400 And he then it structured everything around setting up that situation. 499 00:43:44.579 --> 00:43:48.960 Even though I think, as you say, Nathan, I think you're right, the moral choice feels false. 500 00:43:49.019 --> 00:43:51.599 And so, well, I find the episode very moving. 501 00:43:51.659 --> 00:43:55.320 I don't think about it in the sense of like, oh, that's a real thinker. 502 00:43:55.380 --> 00:44:03.480 Like some of the moral choice ones that would be later on in the like the harness stories can be legitimately like, I don't know what the right answer is. 503 00:44:03.539 --> 00:44:04.440 Yeah. 504 00:44:04.500 --> 00:44:06.719 You know, this one feels like, well, that's obvious. 505 00:44:06.780 --> 00:44:07.260 What do you do? 506 00:44:07.320 --> 00:44:07.800 You do this. 507 00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:38.820 I think maybe Vinay Patel's 1st episode, does a better job in that what's at risk is the existence of Yaz, and they probably don't lean into it quite enough, but this is a dodgy place to interfere, not because it's a fixed point in time, but because it's the origin of Yaz's family, and it actually risks the existence of her family. 508 00:44:38.880 --> 00:44:40.079 It makes it real. 509 00:44:40.139 --> 00:44:41.159 Yeah. 510 00:44:41.219 --> 00:44:45.059 And whether the decision that the doctor makes there is fair or right or whatever. 511 00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:50.219 The stakes are a little bit clearer than like waters of Mars for me. 512 00:44:50.280 --> 00:45:00.840 It seems to me that the doctor is behaving in such a way to ensure that none of the Wikipedia pages, he's read need revision. 513 00:45:00.960 --> 00:45:02.400 Do you know what I mean? 514 00:45:02.460 --> 00:45:16.500 It's like, it's like every new Star Trek episode, uh, or Star Wars, you know, will uh, Wikipedia have to be rewritten as a result of this and uh, if it uh, interferes with too many Wikipedia pages. 515 00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:17.099 It a bad film. 516 00:45:17.159 --> 00:45:20.400 And the answer to that is yes. 517 00:45:21.659 --> 00:45:23.639 That is the right decision. 518 00:45:23.760 --> 00:45:25.199 Yeah. 519 00:45:25.260 --> 00:45:42.599 No, it's it, but I do just keep coming back to this idea that it's an episode designed to raise a question that it then dismisses without actually confronting it in any serious way, almost as if RTD said, we need to raise this and give a good enough answer their fixed point in time. 520 00:45:42.659 --> 00:45:45.300 How do you know at fixed point in time, the doctor knows it when he sees it. 521 00:45:45.360 --> 00:45:47.880 He sees the strands of time. 522 00:45:47.940 --> 00:45:49.679 And that's that's it. 523 00:45:49.800 --> 00:45:57.179 So he's trying to resolve a problem that the show has always had by creating a new bit of law for the show. 524 00:45:57.239 --> 00:46:03.599 But even then, even after the, I can't, you know, this is a fixed point, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 525 00:46:03.659 --> 00:46:06.480 It cops out of actually making him make that decision. 526 00:46:06.539 --> 00:46:12.719 He has to make that decision to destroy the aliens who are going to alter the timeline. 527 00:46:12.780 --> 00:46:27.900 So he actually says, you know, you have to intervene to defeat these aliens and the, the consequence of that, if you like to read it that way, is that Pompeii dies. 528 00:46:27.960 --> 00:46:34.619 Not, not, you have to kill all these people, but the aliens, the aliens, the reason you're doing this. 529 00:46:34.679 --> 00:46:37.139 So it actually, it sidesteps that. 530 00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:37.980 Yeah. 531 00:46:38.039 --> 00:46:49.440 So if there wasn't a fixed point in time, the right moral decision still would have been to destroy Pompeii because of the empire of fire or whatever, yeah. 532 00:46:49.980 --> 00:46:58.199 And it does it does make you wonder if a fixed point in time is simply defined as the thing the doctor did and he can't undo it because he did it. 533 00:46:58.199 --> 00:47:04.139 You know, like if the destruction of Compe is a fixed point in time and it's the thing that he made. 534 00:47:04.199 --> 00:47:06.420 He made it happen that way. 535 00:47:06.480 --> 00:47:10.920 It's like, oh, well maybe that's what makes it fixed, is the doctor's already been here and interfered. 536 00:47:10.980 --> 00:47:19.559 And so he doesn't know that, obviously, but, you know, he gets someplace and he's like, hmm, this is a fixed point because I'm the one who did it and I can't undo my own thing. 537 00:47:19.619 --> 00:47:21.960 Of course, they have the doctor again, undoes that. 538 00:47:22.019 --> 00:47:26.280 But Moffatt had a much more playful sense of what could and couldn't be done. 539 00:47:26.340 --> 00:47:27.000 Yeah. 540 00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:27.599 Yeah. 541 00:47:27.659 --> 00:47:38.039 And I think too, as you pointed out earlier, some problem with utilitarian is, you know, the doctor has to kind of Kobayashi Maru, his way out of that situation. 542 00:47:38.699 --> 00:47:41.460 And that's what Moffat does all the time. 543 00:47:41.519 --> 00:47:43.559 We look like we're about to tell this story. 544 00:47:43.679 --> 00:47:47.760 But then he says, no, that story's not good enough and we're going to tell a better one. 545 00:47:48.360 --> 00:47:50.940 On the topic of Stephen Moffatt. 546 00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:58.920 It's such a shame that he didn't come up with the idea of a companion with multiple facets throughout the timeline for Amy Pond. 547 00:47:58.980 --> 00:48:03.780 Given that Karen Gillan is one of the sisters of the Sibele. 548 00:48:03.840 --> 00:48:08.880 She's the one running around making giant eyes at Tenant and Donna's back. 549 00:48:08.940 --> 00:48:09.840 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 550 00:48:09.900 --> 00:48:12.599 She's after Catherine Tate's job, I think, probably. 551 00:48:12.659 --> 00:48:13.260 Yeah, yeah. 552 00:48:13.320 --> 00:48:17.340 And the amazing thing is, look, I researched and I don't think this is the case. 553 00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:22.800 She puts on such a posh RP accent that I was certain it was dubbed. 554 00:48:23.159 --> 00:48:24.420 Yeah, no, no, it's not. 555 00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:25.920 You can actually her. 556 00:48:25.980 --> 00:48:28.199 Well, because you can hear her struggling to do the accent. 557 00:48:28.260 --> 00:48:31.380 That's the fun thing about it And Capaldi as well. 558 00:48:31.440 --> 00:48:34.619 You know, sometimes gives posh readings. 559 00:48:34.679 --> 00:48:43.260 He has to do the Welsh accent a couple of times because whenever the doctor sees ipso facto or status quo or something, he goes, that's lovely. 560 00:48:45.239 --> 00:48:49.920 Yeah, which perhaps gets a little bit tiresome by the end. 561 00:48:50.099 --> 00:48:53.280 And he's incredibly good as well. 562 00:48:53.340 --> 00:48:56.880 Like, this is, he's fabulously overcast. 563 00:48:56.940 --> 00:49:06.599 And I can't help imagining him thinking, oh, well, you know, wow, I get to be in Doctor Who, because we know what an incredible fanboy he was. 564 00:49:06.659 --> 00:49:15.000 Um, little suspecting that um, he would, uh, this is his Commander Maxil, yeah, all along. 565 00:49:15.059 --> 00:49:17.699 Yeah, if Colin Baker can do it, why can't? 566 00:49:18.719 --> 00:49:27.780 And our, you know, our final connection to the broader Doctor Who universe, of course, is Dame Tracy Childs, Asmatola, who is Klein in the big finish audios. 567 00:49:27.840 --> 00:49:29.039 Oh, okay. 568 00:49:30.599 --> 00:49:34.380 The alternate universe X Nazi scientist companion to the 7th doctor. 569 00:49:34.440 --> 00:49:39.000 Oh, that doesn't sound ethically sort of problematic in anyway at all. sounds awesome. 570 00:49:39.059 --> 00:49:41.460 Completing the Tracy Child circle. 571 00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:47.159 Her 1st big finish was Colditz, featuring David Tennant as the villain. 572 00:49:47.219 --> 00:49:48.360 Ah, there we go. 573 00:49:48.360 --> 00:49:49.440 And Nazis. 574 00:49:49.500 --> 00:49:50.400 And Nazis. 575 00:49:50.460 --> 00:49:55.559 So it brings us back to some Gatus's new script. 576 00:49:55.619 --> 00:49:56.159 Oh my god. 577 00:49:56.760 --> 00:50:11.400 And of course, we do have, like, we do have the, um, like, the 12th doctor does deliberately reference the fact that he's seen this face before, and although it's not until what the girl who died, where he realises why. 578 00:50:11.460 --> 00:50:12.719 Yeah. 579 00:50:12.719 --> 00:50:23.699 And it's like, he took Kaiselius's face because he knew that this incarnation of the doctor would be just as much of a jerk as the 10th doctor tries to be in this story. and abandon people he could save. 580 00:50:23.940 --> 00:50:26.460 And that is, you shouldn't do that. 581 00:50:26.519 --> 00:50:27.420 And then he shouldn't do that. 582 00:50:27.480 --> 00:50:32.460 And then it's something the 12th doctor actually does quite a bit until that moment and then he does it much less after that. 583 00:50:32.579 --> 00:50:36.420 Once he realises, oh, that's what this face is reminding me of. 584 00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:45.179 But also, you could argue that probably that was a mistake given where that character goes with her extra life. 585 00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:47.159 Yeah, no, that's entirely true. 586 00:50:47.219 --> 00:51:03.420 I think Tatwood points out that, or someone, I'm sure this has been pointed out any number of times, that, you know, we're lucky the doctor never ran into John Frobisher, you know, who, you know, sells children to alien paedophiles and then shoots his entire family. 587 00:51:05.039 --> 00:51:10.380 Yeah, which you'd think the British public might know about from this little thing called the news. 588 00:51:10.800 --> 00:51:16.139 And this is, it's actually something I believe RTD had like an explanation for. 589 00:51:16.619 --> 00:51:19.440 That he would, if he ever needed it. 590 00:51:19.500 --> 00:51:25.440 He had something in his back pocket for why Capaldi had appeared multiple times in the Doctor Universe. 591 00:51:25.500 --> 00:51:31.079 Because we know for a fact that children of earth happens in the same universe as the doctor, which... 592 00:51:31.139 --> 00:51:31.440 Yeah. 593 00:51:31.500 --> 00:51:36.059 But as well, you know, it's while he's taking a year off and dumb and seducing Queen Elizabeth. 594 00:51:36.119 --> 00:51:37.079 So, you know, it's fine. 595 00:51:37.320 --> 00:51:44.460 You know, I'm not even convinced that Planet of the Oude next week takes place in the same universe as this, to be honest. 596 00:51:44.579 --> 00:51:50.280 Like, you know, like, it's one of those things that I don't spend too much time caring about. 597 00:51:54.179 --> 00:52:00.960 One of the things that we'll end up doing this season is talking about the, like the, the arc watch. 598 00:52:01.019 --> 00:52:07.920 Yeah, there is a kind of a weird thing where there's a series of things that get dropped into nearly every episode. 599 00:52:07.980 --> 00:52:11.940 And so last week, what, we had the bees disappearing. 600 00:52:12.059 --> 00:52:13.079 Bees disappearing. 601 00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:15.960 And you had the experience of Adipose 3 and Rose. and Rose. 602 00:52:16.019 --> 00:52:20.340 And so this time we had she's returning, which we probably know is Rose. 603 00:52:20.340 --> 00:52:21.780 What else did we have? 604 00:52:21.840 --> 00:52:23.519 There's something on your back. 605 00:52:23.579 --> 00:52:24.300 Something on your back. 606 00:52:24.360 --> 00:52:26.099 And there's the pyrovile planet's missing. 607 00:52:26.159 --> 00:52:30.480 So it's 2 planets in 2 weeks that have disappeared. 608 00:52:30.599 --> 00:52:32.880 Also, when we had a reference to the shadow proclamation. 609 00:52:32.940 --> 00:52:33.480 Yeah, yeah. 610 00:52:33.539 --> 00:52:42.780 Another commonality I found between these last 2 episodes is it's both of them include an alien race converting humans. 611 00:52:42.840 --> 00:52:44.099 Yeah. 612 00:52:44.099 --> 00:52:46.500 Because their planet has been lost. 613 00:52:46.559 --> 00:52:47.340 Right. 614 00:52:47.400 --> 00:52:51.000 So the adipose breeding planet has been lost. 615 00:52:51.059 --> 00:52:57.480 So they are converting humans, and even the doctor last week acknowledged, that could actually work. 616 00:52:57.960 --> 00:53:03.420 And rewatched Pfizer Pompeii last night with my other half. 617 00:53:03.420 --> 00:53:05.400 And he loves Catherine Tate. 618 00:53:05.460 --> 00:53:06.960 So when I said, oh, we'll just watch episode two. 619 00:53:07.019 --> 00:53:09.599 Well, you'll need to watch episode one so you understand episode two. 620 00:53:09.659 --> 00:53:10.739 I'm like, no, remember it. 621 00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:11.579 We're watching episode. 622 00:53:11.639 --> 00:53:12.119 Okay, right. 623 00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:19.019 And this thing, halfway through the episode, he's just like, why didn't the adipose just ask? 624 00:53:19.079 --> 00:53:22.079 They would have loads of willing volunteers. 625 00:53:22.139 --> 00:53:25.559 You know, you get to make a cute baby every night and lose weight. 626 00:53:25.619 --> 00:53:26.760 Take my fat. 627 00:53:26.880 --> 00:53:33.000 Whereas, of course, the pyra vowels are even more underhanded and it will destroy the host. 628 00:53:33.059 --> 00:53:34.500 Yeah, you know. 629 00:53:34.559 --> 00:53:51.300 But it's interesting that Russell T. Davies, when imagining these planets go missing, then imagines 2 parasitic alien races. because he, of course, creates the adipose, and he also created the Pyravol. 630 00:53:51.360 --> 00:53:54.300 James Moran's original pitch was a lot more historical. 631 00:53:54.360 --> 00:53:57.780 It did have an alien menace, but wasn't as well defined. 632 00:53:57.840 --> 00:54:00.239 And then Russell comes along and says, let's make them file. 633 00:54:00.300 --> 00:54:02.039 Lets make them volcanic and they're converting people. 634 00:54:02.099 --> 00:54:04.739 And the interesting thing about that too. 635 00:54:04.860 --> 00:54:14.280 And Tatwood, I think, points this out in about time, that the bodies of the people in Pompeii don't sort of, this is a bit of a thing, but they don't really survive. 636 00:54:14.280 --> 00:54:19.199 And what we have is, you know, plaster casts of them. 637 00:54:19.260 --> 00:54:31.559 So they're turning to stone, you know, while they're still walking around, even before archeologists come around and start creating sort of mineral versions of the people who die. 638 00:54:31.679 --> 00:54:32.400 Yeah. 639 00:54:32.400 --> 00:54:39.719 And the thing is, the missing planets and yields to the, uh, leads to this on tarn, 2 parter. 640 00:54:39.780 --> 00:54:43.139 Um, that's that's why they're trying to convert the earth. 641 00:54:43.199 --> 00:54:47.099 It is, it's surprising that when we were watching it. 642 00:54:47.159 --> 00:54:52.800 And this the thing is because there's no way to guess what it all leads to, but we were clear something was happening with missing planets. 643 00:54:52.800 --> 00:55:00.360 And, you know, whatever else we, but there was no, it's weird because RTD didn't actually do arcs. 644 00:55:00.420 --> 00:55:04.079 He did like drop ins of references, like torture. 645 00:55:04.139 --> 00:55:04.800 Okay, great. 646 00:55:04.860 --> 00:55:05.639 Torchwood. 647 00:55:05.699 --> 00:55:06.900 Okay, they said Torchwood again. 648 00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:07.920 So Torchwood something. 649 00:55:07.980 --> 00:55:09.900 He did foreshadowing. 650 00:55:09.960 --> 00:55:10.679 Yeah. 651 00:55:10.739 --> 00:55:13.920 And not even really foreshadowing, just like saying a word over and over again. 652 00:55:14.039 --> 00:55:20.280 And then, like, if I said the word, um, flambaba to you every day for a week, and then on Saturday told you what it meant. 653 00:55:20.340 --> 00:55:23.340 It's not really sort of like Flambaba. 654 00:55:23.460 --> 00:55:24.900 You're like, mm-hmm, indeed. 655 00:55:25.019 --> 00:55:25.980 Great. 656 00:55:26.039 --> 00:55:28.199 It's like, it's not actual information. 657 00:55:28.260 --> 00:55:44.940 The, um, perhaps the closest it comes to an arc and again, it's not very close because it is just references, uh, is the, we've said this before, the master in utopia, you know, stealing the TARDIS and travelling back in time to sometime in series two. 658 00:55:45.900 --> 00:55:54.659 So that's a little bit more of an arc, whereas this is just a series of things or themes. 659 00:55:54.719 --> 00:56:02.039 I think it's, you know, we'll talk more about it as the series goes on, but I think it's pretty good for what it is. 660 00:56:02.340 --> 00:56:12.960 It does introduce, though, the actual, I would say, the thematic thrust of season four, which is about war, um, and conquest, which um, comes back and comes and goes. 661 00:56:13.019 --> 00:56:26.579 And maybe Doctor Who is always about that, but given how the season ends and how it's liberally about the doctor turning people into weapons and things, the idea that the pyro vials looked like giant Roman gladiators and they're in the Roman Empire, which is a war empire, blah, blah, blah. 662 00:56:26.639 --> 00:56:30.480 It sort of, it begins that sort of motif because it's not really in partners in crime at all. 663 00:56:57.539 --> 00:57:03.659 Well, dear listener, we're all going to leg it now before a piroplastic search tells our brains to glass. 664 00:57:03.659 --> 00:57:10.019 And so we'll be back next week to tie up some important loose ends on the planet of the Oud. 665 00:57:10.139 --> 00:57:11.099 Ow. 666 00:57:11.159 --> 00:57:27.119 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook, at FT podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, and Jody Interterterra. 667 00:57:27.179 --> 00:57:29.519 Eric, where can people find you? 668 00:57:29.760 --> 00:57:31.679 All over the place? 669 00:57:31.739 --> 00:57:33.119 I have a variety of podcasts. 670 00:57:33.179 --> 00:57:45.179 There's the real McCoy podcast, which some of you have recently been on, which is about the 7th doctor and his times, we're about to release an episode about Silver Nemesis. 671 00:57:45.239 --> 00:57:47.699 So maybe come back after that one. 672 00:57:49.019 --> 00:57:57.000 Uh, I also have a podcast called uh, the writer's room colon the other limits where we're looking at the science fiction television show the other limits. 673 00:57:57.059 --> 00:58:00.360 I have one called so much stuff to sing, which is about American Musical. 674 00:58:00.420 --> 00:58:06.119 Anyway, you can find all of those links and everything else I do at my Twitter account, which is at SJC off tonight. 675 00:58:06.179 --> 00:58:16.079 S J-C-A-U-S-T-E-N-I-T-E. So, until next time, sit terra tibi lewis, thank you very much for listening and good night. 676 00:58:16.139 --> 00:58:16.920 Good night. 677 00:58:16.920 --> 00:58:17.519 Good night. 678 00:58:17.579 --> 00:58:19.019 Gracias, TB. 679 00:58:20.280 --> 00:58:26.639 That was Flight for Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones, James Selwood and Eric Stadnick. 680 00:58:26.699 --> 00:58:30.360 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings performance by Jane Orberg. 681 00:58:30.420 --> 00:58:37.739 This episode, the Cambridge Latin course, was recorded on the 27th of January 2020 and released on the 22nd of March. 682 00:58:41.340 --> 00:58:50.639 If you enjoyed this week's ethical dilemma, tune in next week when we'll discuss the moral permissibility of electrocuting your capitalist overlords. 683 00:58:50.699 --> 00:58:52.199 We think you're gonna love it. 684 00:58:55.260 --> 00:59:02.099 For me, what was fun or what was worthwhile about the episode was being forced to care about those people? 685 00:59:02.340 --> 00:59:08.219 We spend time with Kerkilius and his family. 686 00:59:08.219 --> 00:59:13.139 And look, I'm going to butcher Latin pronunciations all through this episode, so I'm going to try not to mention names. 687 00:59:13.199 --> 00:59:15.360 And the word pronunciation. 688 00:59:15.360 --> 00:59:18.059 I always say pronunciation. 689 00:59:18.119 --> 00:59:19.800 I never say pronunciation. 690 00:59:19.860 --> 00:59:21.119 And whenever I go to spelling it. 691 00:59:21.119 --> 00:59:22.440 I was thinking it, James said it. 692 00:59:22.500 --> 00:59:23.340 Sorry. 693 00:59:23.340 --> 00:59:35.099 I was an English teacher and I think I was 29 when I found out that there's only one, there's only 2 O's, I should say, in pronunciation. 694 00:59:35.159 --> 00:59:35.519 Yes. 695 00:59:35.519 --> 00:59:36.599 There's no O in the middle. 696 00:59:36.659 --> 00:59:37.380 That's right. 697 00:59:37.380 --> 00:59:39.239 It's not pronounciation. 698 00:59:39.239 --> 00:59:39.599 No. 699 00:59:39.719 --> 00:59:40.739 Or pronounced. 700 00:59:40.800 --> 00:59:48.539 It's one of those stupid situations where we've taken a letter out for no readily explored reason and I've just said that in front of 2 linguists. 701 00:59:49.739 --> 00:59:51.480 Yeah, look. 702 00:59:52.139 --> 00:59:56.251 Yeah, we care about the family because...