WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 13:05:26

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Someway, Comi Sauditor, et bene tibi reventum sit in fugam per

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totalitatem.

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Solam seriam colloquiorum inperretialem doctor who, inqua nos

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omnes cambricce loquimur, sum Nathan?

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Sum James?

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Sum Brendan.

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It's time for Donna Noble to take her 1st trip back into the past

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and what better place to visit than Pompeii, where the Latin is

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dodgy, the dormice are lightly toasted, and the moral dilemmas are

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based on absolutely nothing at all.

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Pass around the marshmallows, everyone.

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It's the fires of Pompeii.

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So, background for this story.

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This was something of a backup script.

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So, originally, this was the slot for Mark Gatis's much discussed

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but never produced World War 2 museum story.

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Oh.

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But at this point, it was still planned to be World War I during

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production, during pre-production, I should say.

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They moved it to a World War 2 setting while also developing the

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fires of Pompeii.

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And the reason they didn't just go for Pfizer Pompeii straight

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away is that they were worried it would be too expensive to

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replicate Rome. not Rome, sorry, Pompeii, obviously.

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They were worried it would be too expensive to replicate Pompeii

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and the volcanic eruption and it might be much cheaper to do

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something inside a museum.

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Russell said to Mark Gators, make it in World War II.

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And then a couple weeks later said, actually, we've done World War

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2 recently, so we're going to go with the Pompeii one.

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So Gatus doesn't get an episode this season.

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He was that annoyed.

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No, it was just, you know, he'd spent all that time working on the

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script, which I believe was still paid for because they were

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overcommissioning scripts at this stage.

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They were usually commissioning 15 to 16 scripts for the year.

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Stephen Fry got paid for his script that wasn't made 2 years ago

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for instance.

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Yeah, but he just doesn't end up writing another one this year.

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And Gatus will get one in 2 years' time in the next full season, a

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World War 2 script, I guess.

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Yeah, yeah, he gets victory of the Dalux.

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So Pompeii is sort of a sort of fairly obvious place.

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I mean, we've had it mentioned in the doctor dances or whatever.

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And I think there's the Fires of Vulcan, isn't there?

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A big finish audio.

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Yeah, the 7th doctrine Mel story.

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That was years before this though.

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Yeah, I think this was before they had McGann.

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So this would have been 1999, 2000.

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It's the 1st 7 Dr. Mel Big finish story.

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Ah, okay.

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There we go.

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So how do we feel about the Pompeii setting?

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I have to ask why.

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Not that I don't like it and I don't think it doesn't work, but it

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does...

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It's an interesting choice to raise this huge dilemma about the

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doctor's role in history and all that sort of, all that sort of

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stuff that I'm sure we'll talk about via making what is

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essentially a slow motion disaster movie where we witness 100s of

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extras, then, you know, not actually, but it seems like many, all

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of whom we know are just going to die.

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It's a very dark story because they choose that setting of

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Pompeii.

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But also, because there's a sort of tradition of comedy Rome, you

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know, there's a sort of tonal thing.

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I mean, we used to this episode being a romp, you know, being a

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celebrity historical.

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It's interesting what you say, Eric, about the tone of it, because

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they actually initially had this plan for episode three, that's

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flipped it with Planet of the Oud because they thought that was a

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too dark story to have straight after partners in crime.

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How did that work out?

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But, I mean, do you know what I mean?

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This is the Shakespeare code slot.

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This is the unquiet dead slot.

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It's supposed to be kind of a fun romp.

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And it sort of is.

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I mean, there's a Roman historian, Mary Baird, who talks about how

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quickly into a sort of Roman pastiche, you mention the fact that

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Romans eat dormice, you know, and obviously in this episode we

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lasted maybe about 30 seconds.

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But it's a thing that you do because it's one of the comedy things

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that we know about Romans.

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And it's pitched at the kids or at least at the kids who are

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learning Latin because, of course, Caicilius, Quintus and Metella

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are the 3 main characters in the Cambridge Latin course.

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Um, there's a real Kyculius.

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I've been to his house.

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He wasn't called Lobus Caicilius.

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He was called Lucius Caicilius, Yucundus.

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He may not have still been alive when the when Pompeii erupted, but

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it's identified as his house.

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And so the kids are all familiar with these people.

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You know, the kids watching this or anyone who'd learned Latin at

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school since the 1970s knows these characters.

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So there's something sort of fun and familiar and silly about it

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but then it ends up turning into this sort of rather horrific

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moral dilemma.

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And that's backed up by the fact that we have Phil Cornwall, as

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the store holder, right up front to the centre, doing that joke

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about Donna speaking Welsh. as he's a famous comedian.

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I think he goes on to be in horrible histories as well.

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He used to do a Christopher Eccleston impersonation for Dead

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Ringers.

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That's right, yes.

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Yes. how I knew him.

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Yeah, very good he was too.

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And I think Phil Davis, who's Lucius.

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He's got a comedy background as well.

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Right.

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Yeah, I saw him in the, I was the only person to watch the final

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series of being human.

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Everyone else had stopped watching.

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You don't count, James.

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And he played the devil in that.

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No, he's fantastic.

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Yeah, he was really so dark.

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Such a bleak ending.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Oh, yeah, good.

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You mean Lucius Petris, of course.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Lucia's interesting...

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Well, except no one is called that and the Latin is wrong.

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This is the thing that irritates me about this episode, and it's

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ridiculous, and I need you all to tell me how ridiculous I'm being

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but all of these things that happen.

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All of this sort of Roman stuff that they do is like completely

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weird and wrong.

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The modern art thing doesn't work.

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People aren't called the right names.

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There's no way the sister would be called Evelina.

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No one is called Lobus.

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You know, like all of these historical things just annoy me.

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Did you ruin a reference to City of Death?

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Why?

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What?

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The modern own.

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That's what it's a joke.

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It's just a city of death joke.

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Well, that's the thing, is this is, this isn't an exploration of

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what life would be like in Pompeii, in, you know, the day before

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the volcano inflation.

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I mean, the doctor never even mentioned Herculaneum.

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No, which is something like because they're thinking, well, the

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viewer at home won't know it was 2 cities.

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Yeah.

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Completely destroyed by Pompeii.

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So let's not mention it.

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But also, God, if Donna finds that out.

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Sorry, Erica, there's a whole other city.

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She forgot to run around screaming him.

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But it is, it's all based on this idea of what the writers and the

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showrunner think the people at home will think they know about the

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Roman world.

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And so it's the dormouse joke, but it's also, we think Latin names

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were things like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and we

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don't know what the actual names were.

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And so there's little jokes built into that.

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Um, and they, but it is, there's no attempt to actually explore

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what life would be like at that time.

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It's the Romans were modern people or the Pompeians, I guess, were

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modern people.

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They just happen to be old.

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And that's just not true.

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We know that from history, but that's not actually how life was

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but they want us to get us into the drama and not be sort of

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stuck.

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And so we think we know everything, and we feel familiar with the

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world, and we get the little jokes, and we get the name references

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and whatever, and that's, and that's all we need.

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Otherwise, it's not actually at all about Pompeii.

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Like, this could be Planet X. Yeah, yeah.

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And I think it is, there's a tradition of this that dates back all

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the way to Dennis Spooner. you know, like if you look at the

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Romans, for instance, it probably does a better job of the history

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but it's not interested in the history it's interested in, in sort

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of gladiator movies and, you know, menacing Ian with stock footage

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of a lion.

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But that's still when Doctor Who is doing the educating...

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Well, I mean, let's look at Shakespeare code.

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Do you know what I mean?

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We talked about Shakespeare code and and it has virtually no

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engagement with Shakespeare at all, really.

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Yeah, Sexy Shakespearean is perfect teeth, yeah.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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But, you know, like it skirts across the surface of what

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Shakespeare writes about, you know, in just the most kind of

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superficial way.

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Yeah.

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And I, like, it just irritates me because it could so easily have

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got it right, but I kind of recognise that that's absolutely not

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what it's trying to do.

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And it's probably not what it should do.

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Look, I would agree with that.

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Russell T. Davies vision of historicals is, as I think it was Pete

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said in our Shakespeare code episode, theme park history.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And that makes it accessible to the audience.

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The audience does learn something.

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And I can entirely understand for historians that that would be

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annoying.

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It's a bit like when I watch a movie and someone is holding a

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video game controller the wrong way.

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But, you know, I accept that and I move on, partly because it's a

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more niche interest than being a historian.

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But also because I have to look at, does the story work on its own

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terms, even if it has to take some liberties.

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And just last week, Nicola Tesla's Night of Terror was criticised

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for, you know, being historically inaccurate in places.

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And it's just like, oh, I'm sorry, I'll pull up middle-aged Nero

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as this as this bastion of historical accuracy.

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Yeah.

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So having said that as somebody who's studied history, who has a

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history degree, I find that really irritating when I know that

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history, and I think this is what you're getting at, Nathan, isn't

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it?

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Like, when I know that history and and that culture, because I've

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you know, as much as we can in the modern era.

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It takes me out of the drama when I, that's historically

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inaccurate.

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I know most of the people watching are not going to have that

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reaction, but I do.

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Well, I mean, the show sort of telegraphs that it's not interested

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in historical accuracy.

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In a way that Nicola Tesla's Night of Terror doesn't.

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You know, it is trying to show us a sort of underappreciated or

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until recently underappreciated historical figure.

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And, you know, the Chibnall historicals tend to have more ambition

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than sort of theme park history.

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But this telegraphs are theme park history with the jokes about

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Spartacus with, you know, having a servant called rhombus, you

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know, like all of that sort of stuff is just very deliberately

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silly.

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Oh, and they're playing it as comedy.

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Yeah, even after they work out where they are, they're still

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playing it as comedy, until the moment that Donna realises that

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the doctor is not going to save anyone, because he can't change

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established events.

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Yeah.

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So I guess maybe now is the time to think about that.

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This is the 1st time that we have fixed points in time mentioned.

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Can't change history, not one line.

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Yeah, so that's in the Aztecs.

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And we don't know what that means.

250
00:12:54.659 --> 00:12:58.559
Is that a moral stricture or is it a sort of physics kind of

251
00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:00.179
restriction?

252
00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:04.559
They never make an attempt, though, in any time in the classic run

253
00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:08.940
to essentially say that history can't be changed.

254
00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:12.240
So I think we have to believe, even if that's not what they've

255
00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:14.519
been at the time, we have to believe the 1st doctor means, I won't

256
00:13:14.519 --> 00:13:15.000
let you.

257
00:13:15.059 --> 00:13:16.379
Yeah, you can't.

258
00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:20.100
You're not allowed. because they clearly do change history.

259
00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:23.759
I mean, Atlock leaves and, you know, all these other things that

260
00:13:23.759 --> 00:13:25.200
they play around with in history.

261
00:13:25.259 --> 00:13:26.759
It doesn't affect big picture stuff.

262
00:13:26.820 --> 00:13:27.960
It doesn't affect small picture stuff.

263
00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:31.440
And can they affect big picture stuff?

264
00:13:31.500 --> 00:13:32.639
Do we think that's ever happened?

265
00:13:33.059 --> 00:13:38.100
So, you know, the Fendal can come back and do it, or but that

266
00:13:38.100 --> 00:13:39.059
doesn't change history.

267
00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:40.860
That's sort of part of established history.

268
00:13:40.919 --> 00:13:44.220
Like, can you can, does the doctor ever actually change history?

269
00:13:44.700 --> 00:13:49.019
Only to actually make it be the history that we've already...

270
00:13:49.080 --> 00:13:53.820
Such as if we look at the visitation, where without without the

271
00:13:53.820 --> 00:13:55.980
doctor's involvement, we wouldn't have the Great Fire of London

272
00:13:55.980 --> 00:13:58.440
and the doctor immediately goes, right, I'm getting out of here.

273
00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:04.139
I'm actually in the process of writing a series of videos from my

274
00:14:04.139 --> 00:14:06.960
YouTube channel called How Does Time Travel work in Doctor Who and

275
00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:08.039
looking at how it evolves.

276
00:14:08.100 --> 00:14:10.259
And yes, I've absolutely come to the conclusion, Eric, you're

277
00:14:10.259 --> 00:14:14.340
right, that in the 1st doctor's era, at the very least, not

278
00:14:14.340 --> 00:14:17.879
changing history is a moral rather than physical imperative.

279
00:14:17.940 --> 00:14:18.659
Right.

280
00:14:18.659 --> 00:14:26.580
But it also implies that a human sent back in time does not have

281
00:14:26.580 --> 00:14:29.220
the power to change history, whereas time lords do.

282
00:14:29.460 --> 00:14:35.220
And I think part of the doctor's struggle unstated is that, you

283
00:14:35.220 --> 00:14:38.100
know, he tells Donna, I can't change this because horrible things

284
00:14:38.100 --> 00:14:38.639
will happen.

285
00:14:38.700 --> 00:14:42.539
But the other thing is, he's like, I am still making that choice.

286
00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:45.720
I could still try, and if I try, it would be a terrible thing

287
00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:47.340
because these other things wouldn't happen.

288
00:14:47.399 --> 00:14:50.100
But is that a problem for the show?

289
00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:51.299
Like, is that a problem?

290
00:14:51.360 --> 00:15:00.600
Because as far as I'm aware, there are no actual moral issues with

291
00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:01.620
changing history.

292
00:15:02.220 --> 00:15:07.019
Well, the thing is, the show neatly avoids that by having them

293
00:15:07.019 --> 00:15:10.799
have to blow up the volcano in order to stop the pyroviles.

294
00:15:10.860 --> 00:15:15.899
So it leaves hanging. how far the doctor would be willing to go to

295
00:15:15.899 --> 00:15:16.320
change this.

296
00:15:16.379 --> 00:15:20.580
But don't you, I think I think there's a huge, huge problem here.

297
00:15:20.700 --> 00:15:24.000
And so the problem is, and the problem is recognised.

298
00:15:24.059 --> 00:15:24.720
Do you know what I mean?

299
00:15:24.779 --> 00:15:27.659
It's not, it's not, um... unrecognised?

300
00:15:27.720 --> 00:15:30.960
Well, it's not kind of just skated over, is it?

301
00:15:31.019 --> 00:15:39.779
It's the problem is that the doctor has to decide to let 20,000

302
00:15:39.779 --> 00:15:46.919
people die in order to obey a stricture that is a complete science

303
00:15:46.919 --> 00:15:50.519
fiction stricture that has no real world analogue as far as I can

304
00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:50.820
tell.

305
00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:53.820
So it's not a real moral decision that he has to make.

306
00:15:53.879 --> 00:15:56.039
Until waters of Mars.

307
00:15:56.159 --> 00:16:00.240
And I think that's RTT gets very obsessed with this idea of the

308
00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:02.340
fixed points in time and what happens when you try to screw with

309
00:16:02.340 --> 00:16:02.580
them.

310
00:16:02.580 --> 00:16:07.200
And his answer is, no, the fixed points are fixed points, if you

311
00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:10.860
think you interfere with them, you just make things worse or you

312
00:16:10.860 --> 00:16:12.240
get blood on your hands directly.

313
00:16:12.299 --> 00:16:17.039
So here in Fires of Pompeii, yeah, the doctor could try to

314
00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:20.340
interfere, but then anything that happens is his fault as opposed

315
00:16:20.340 --> 00:16:22.320
to how history played out.

316
00:16:22.379 --> 00:16:25.620
And so I think it's about abdicating moral responsibility.

317
00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:26.639
I'm not saying it's good.

318
00:16:26.700 --> 00:16:28.980
But I'm saying I think that's the position the show takes.

319
00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:31.500
Because you've got this. here the problem, right?

320
00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:34.620
The doctor's allowed to change and Donna calls him out on it.

321
00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:37.200
You know, like the show actually confronts it head on.

322
00:16:37.259 --> 00:16:39.179
In the present, the doctor can do anything.

323
00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:41.220
He's not, do you know what I mean?

324
00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:44.580
He never says the Slovene are a fixed point in time, so I'm afraid

325
00:16:44.580 --> 00:16:46.440
we just have to let this happen or whatever.

326
00:16:46.500 --> 00:16:49.919
It never happens in the far future either.

327
00:16:49.980 --> 00:16:52.320
It only seems to happen in Earth's past.

328
00:16:52.379 --> 00:16:55.379
And maybe that's part of what's clever about Waters of Mars, is

329
00:16:55.379 --> 00:16:58.379
setting it in the near future and having a fixed point in time

330
00:16:58.379 --> 00:16:58.740
there.

331
00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:07.680
But so it is why can the doctor overthrow the racist regime in the

332
00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:12.180
savages, but she can't overthrow the racist regime in Alabama?

333
00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:13.319
Do you know what I mean?

334
00:17:13.380 --> 00:17:15.839
Like, like, it's a big problem, I think.

335
00:17:15.900 --> 00:17:21.299
And it makes the historicals bad drama in a way, I think.

336
00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:26.700
Yeah, because the moral, the moral quandary in this story is

337
00:17:26.700 --> 00:17:29.039
turned into a trolly problem.

338
00:17:29.099 --> 00:17:36.359
It's 20,000 people here. or it is James is bouncing up and down, so

339
00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:37.319
I think he can finish my point.

340
00:17:37.380 --> 00:17:41.160
It's 20,000 people here or...

341
00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:44.160
What, like a 100,000 somewhere else?

342
00:17:44.220 --> 00:17:46.259
No, it's, you know, 1000000s of people.

343
00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:47.700
The entire human race.

344
00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:51.180
Yeah, no, I was just really excited that you've got onto the good

345
00:17:51.180 --> 00:17:51.660
place.

346
00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:55.859
But yeah, good place to not event for Charlie, bro.

347
00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:58.920
No, I know, but I've just rewatched that episode.

348
00:17:59.220 --> 00:18:02.339
But yeah, it turns it into a trolly problem.

349
00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:08.039
So that the doctor's choice is understandable by the audience, you

350
00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:11.579
know, because suddenly we at home are affected because we will

351
00:18:11.579 --> 00:18:13.380
never have been born if this happens.

352
00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:16.680
It also means that Donna can become complicit in it.

353
00:18:16.740 --> 00:18:20.339
So because it becomes a straightforward moral decision, it's not a

354
00:18:20.339 --> 00:18:26.039
decision, 20,000 people or this magical rule that I just made up

355
00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:29.819
it's 20,000 people or 1000000s of people.

356
00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:32.640
And that looks like a more straightforward kind of moral

357
00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:33.059
decision.

358
00:18:33.180 --> 00:18:36.119
I think it probably is, you know, just given the scale of it.

359
00:18:36.180 --> 00:18:39.960
But, you know, the trolly problem isn't that straightforward.

360
00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:43.440
And you, you know, there are all those sort of analogous

361
00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:48.059
situations where our instinct is actually no, we can't save the

362
00:18:48.059 --> 00:18:49.079
greater number of people.

363
00:18:49.140 --> 00:18:52.319
You can't pluck someone from a waiting room and implant their

364
00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:56.700
liver and kidneys and lungs and heart into 5 other sick people

365
00:18:56.700 --> 00:19:00.779
just at random, even though the kind of moral calculus in a sense

366
00:19:00.779 --> 00:19:01.440
is the same.

367
00:19:01.500 --> 00:19:07.140
And I think that Doctor Who doesn't do utilitarianism, that that's

368
00:19:07.140 --> 00:19:10.920
not the doctor's general moral code.

369
00:19:10.980 --> 00:19:15.420
Well, it was, I think, or at least it was part of the doctor's

370
00:19:15.420 --> 00:19:18.059
character in the RTD era, and I think it's something that Moffat

371
00:19:18.059 --> 00:19:20.819
rebelled against. meeting today of the doctor.

372
00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:25.619
Yeah. where he's like, no, there's never a justification for

373
00:19:25.619 --> 00:19:26.220
something like that.

374
00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:29.460
But I was just going to say, what's interesting to me about this

375
00:19:29.460 --> 00:19:35.579
moral question is, once you get them in the little pod, okay, it's

376
00:19:35.579 --> 00:19:37.380
the 20,000 versus all of human history.

377
00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:37.859
It's fine.

378
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:39.599
Easy but still stupid.

379
00:19:39.660 --> 00:19:44.519
The question is how you get to the point where Donna's raises a

380
00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:47.339
very good idea about why don't we just tell people to leave town?

381
00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:49.019
Just leave?

382
00:19:49.140 --> 00:19:52.920
Like, would, would, would it really destroy the fabric of human

383
00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:56.700
history if 100 people, like, he's not even going to save the

384
00:19:56.700 --> 00:19:56.940
family?

385
00:19:57.000 --> 00:19:58.500
There's 4 idiots.

386
00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:01.980
You're not even going to save them until she's crying off her

387
00:20:01.980 --> 00:20:02.819
makeup in the TARDIS.

388
00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:07.319
So at a certain point, maybe he has bad memories of year 7 Latin

389
00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:08.819
lessons.

390
00:20:09.180 --> 00:20:12.839
I love that in Britain, people still study Latin. charming.

391
00:20:21.900 --> 00:20:25.859
Yeah, yeah, I mean, that is absolutely inexplicable, isn't it?

392
00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:29.640
And that scene, can we just say that Catherine Tate is just

393
00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:31.680
amazingly brilliant in that scene.

394
00:20:31.740 --> 00:20:36.000
And this is, you know, we saw her in Runaway Bride, and we saw her

395
00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:42.119
just gradually ramping the performance down and humanising it from

396
00:20:42.119 --> 00:20:46.859
being sort of really kind of loud and bleary and blustery, and she

397
00:20:46.859 --> 00:20:48.180
becomes quite introspective.

398
00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:50.940
And it's very clear from runaway bride that she's a very good

399
00:20:50.940 --> 00:20:51.299
actor.

400
00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:55.859
And then, you know, last week, it was all kind of fun and games

401
00:20:55.859 --> 00:20:56.339
and stuff.

402
00:20:56.400 --> 00:21:00.180
But this time, you know, she's going to do this a lot this season

403
00:21:00.180 --> 00:21:00.599
I think.

404
00:21:00.660 --> 00:21:06.779
But the fact that she is a surprisingly compassionate person and

405
00:21:06.779 --> 00:21:09.000
is just played so well by Catherine Tade.

406
00:21:09.059 --> 00:21:14.339
It's really something Yeah, we, I don't think, I'm not saying we

407
00:21:14.339 --> 00:21:19.140
wouldn't care, but, um, the amount to which Donna is outraged by

408
00:21:19.140 --> 00:21:23.579
what the doctor is doing and the amount to which Donna, the scene

409
00:21:23.579 --> 00:21:27.119
where she talks to the kid and then the mother comes and takes the

410
00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:27.359
kid.

411
00:21:27.539 --> 00:21:31.799
It's, I mean, I lose it because...

412
00:21:31.859 --> 00:21:32.579
It is.

413
00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:35.759
The last 5 minutes of this is the doctor and Donna failing to save

414
00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:36.660
1000s of people.

415
00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:39.720
That is what happens in this story is they have set off the chain

416
00:21:39.720 --> 00:21:42.240
reaction and they are unable to save them.

417
00:21:42.299 --> 00:21:43.559
Every time.

418
00:21:43.619 --> 00:21:44.759
It's devastating.

419
00:21:44.819 --> 00:21:48.180
Yeah, I just, I end up in tears when I watch this episode every

420
00:21:48.180 --> 00:21:48.720
time.

421
00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:50.220
Like, it's, I don't know why.

422
00:21:50.279 --> 00:21:55.920
I mean, because parts of it are really broad comedy, but like you

423
00:21:55.920 --> 00:22:00.059
hit that last sort of 5 to 10 minutes and you know the whole thing

424
00:22:00.059 --> 00:22:06.420
is inevitable and she starts to really lose the plot over what's

425
00:22:06.420 --> 00:22:06.839
going to happen.

426
00:22:06.900 --> 00:22:08.759
And I just start crying.

427
00:22:08.819 --> 00:22:12.960
The other moment is where they're standing on the heel watching

428
00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:19.440
the, you know, the smoke and ash roll over Pompeii. and Capoldi

429
00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:24.059
goes all those people and his voice catches.

430
00:22:24.180 --> 00:22:28.319
And it is just that you've got these incredible actors because, you

431
00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:32.339
know, you know, is it too soon to make jokes about Pompeii?

432
00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:35.039
I mean, it's 2000 years ago.

433
00:22:35.099 --> 00:22:36.480
It's very easy not to care.

434
00:22:36.539 --> 00:22:37.500
Do you know what I mean?

435
00:22:37.559 --> 00:22:41.819
There was people were sharing a story with me just this week as we

436
00:22:41.819 --> 00:22:46.799
record. where they found the body of someone, people sheltered on

437
00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:50.700
the waterfront at Herculaneum, which is now, obviously, several

438
00:22:50.700 --> 00:22:54.119
kilometres from the modern day waterfront, but you can sort of go

439
00:22:54.119 --> 00:22:57.299
down there and see these places where people were sheltering.

440
00:22:57.359 --> 00:23:05.039
And um, And the pyroclastic surge was so hot that his internal

441
00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:08.579
organs were all sort of gellified and his brain was turned to

442
00:23:08.579 --> 00:23:11.759
glass. you know, and everyone was sort of saying, that's a really

443
00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:14.759
kind of amazingly interesting thing, and I do want to sort of

444
00:23:14.759 --> 00:23:16.200
share that around.

445
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:22.680
But I think it's very easy to just not care. that that was a

446
00:23:22.680 --> 00:23:26.220
person, that they were people terrified, who had no idea what was

447
00:23:26.220 --> 00:23:26.640
happening.

448
00:23:26.700 --> 00:23:32.039
And another thing, it takes hours, that column of ash, which goes

449
00:23:32.039 --> 00:23:35.819
kilometres into the air and weighs, you know, 1000000s of tons.

450
00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:40.920
It starts to collapse hours and hours after its 1st scene.

451
00:23:40.980 --> 00:23:43.319
So this whole thing takes a very long time.

452
00:23:43.380 --> 00:23:46.799
And then gradually, you know, the surges happen and all these

453
00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:48.900
people are just horribly killed.

454
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:52.680
There's plenty of time for people to fear and panic.

455
00:23:52.740 --> 00:23:54.180
Oh, look, a lot of people evacuated.

456
00:23:54.240 --> 00:23:54.839
Do you know what I mean?

457
00:23:54.900 --> 00:23:58.200
Pompey's population was well in excess of 20,000 people.

458
00:23:58.259 --> 00:23:59.579
People were able to get out.

459
00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:03.059
But because it's so long ago, we don't care.

460
00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:07.980
And it was, for me, what was fun or what was worthwhile about the

461
00:24:07.980 --> 00:24:10.619
episode was being forced to care about those people.

462
00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:16.259
We, yeah, we care about the family because we've spent time with

463
00:24:16.259 --> 00:24:19.740
them, they all get something to do in the story, they all get time

464
00:24:19.740 --> 00:24:23.099
with the doctor or Donna or both.

465
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:24.180
We get.

466
00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:26.940
I think one of the most charming bits in the whole episode is when

467
00:24:26.940 --> 00:24:30.420
the doctor convinces Quintus to help him break into Lucius's

468
00:24:30.420 --> 00:24:30.779
house.

469
00:24:32.339 --> 00:24:37.920
It means that when we get to that last scene, I don't think we've

470
00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:42.900
ever had a situation like that with a one-time family in the show

471
00:24:42.900 --> 00:24:45.420
where we have bonded with them as viewers so much.

472
00:24:45.420 --> 00:24:48.960
Also, we've had an extra 8 minutes to do that.

473
00:24:49.019 --> 00:24:49.799
Yeah.

474
00:24:49.799 --> 00:24:51.779
This is like a very long episode.

475
00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:53.940
It was 50 minutes long on original Broadway.

476
00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:54.180
Right.

477
00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:54.720
Right, right.

478
00:24:54.779 --> 00:24:58.380
Well, it uses the time very well then, because I didn't I didn't

479
00:24:58.380 --> 00:24:58.680
feel that.

480
00:24:58.740 --> 00:24:59.819
You know what I mean?

481
00:24:59.880 --> 00:25:01.680
feels like a regular length episode.

482
00:25:01.740 --> 00:25:05.819
Well, what they do is they, they, they, Yeah, give you all that

483
00:25:05.819 --> 00:25:09.240
time with the family at the expense of time with the villain.

484
00:25:09.299 --> 00:25:14.400
I mean, we have the few scenes with Petristectris.

485
00:25:14.460 --> 00:25:18.059
Um, but, I mean, who are the pirate files?

486
00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:19.440
We don't care.

487
00:25:19.500 --> 00:25:20.039
We never care.

488
00:25:20.099 --> 00:25:23.279
We never remotely care about them as big fire monsters.

489
00:25:23.339 --> 00:25:25.019
Um, and that's fine.

490
00:25:25.079 --> 00:25:28.019
I'm not saying that's criticism, but they deliberately wait the

491
00:25:28.019 --> 00:25:31.799
episode towards making you care about these people to the point

492
00:25:31.799 --> 00:25:34.500
where you kind of forget for moments at a time, they're all going

493
00:25:34.500 --> 00:25:35.039
to die tomorrow.

494
00:25:35.099 --> 00:25:36.059
Yeah.

495
00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:36.720
Yeah.

496
00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:39.539
Like, you know, the doctor's doing his thing investigating the

497
00:25:39.539 --> 00:25:40.619
aliens and what's going on.

498
00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:43.920
It almost makes you wonder like, well, doctor, if that, if, you

499
00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:46.500
know, Pompeii is happening tomorrow, why don't you just let him

500
00:25:46.500 --> 00:25:47.400
get burned to death?

501
00:25:47.460 --> 00:25:49.559
Oh, aliens die, fine.

502
00:25:49.619 --> 00:25:50.700
It is?

503
00:25:50.759 --> 00:25:53.700
I mean, it is very strange, and it is that scene where he just

504
00:25:53.700 --> 00:25:55.079
walks past them.

505
00:25:55.140 --> 00:25:58.319
Um, into the Tartars.

506
00:25:58.440 --> 00:26:02.759
And he's so determined not to rescue them at the end that he

507
00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:05.160
starts to take off even before Donna gets on board.

508
00:26:05.220 --> 00:26:10.980
You know, like it's it's a principle that is worth or worth

509
00:26:10.980 --> 00:26:16.619
sacrificing Donna for if he has to, you know.

510
00:26:16.680 --> 00:26:18.539
And what is that?

511
00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:19.799
What even is that?

512
00:26:20.339 --> 00:26:22.380
It seems ridiculous.

513
00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:25.079
And then he just sort of breaks...

514
00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:25.980
Get in.

515
00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:26.519
Yeah, yeah.

516
00:26:26.579 --> 00:26:28.440
But it is very strange.

517
00:26:28.500 --> 00:26:33.660
And it's, you know, like, I'm not sure why, why it's there.

518
00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:37.259
The new series loves to do this whole the TARDIS starting to

519
00:26:37.259 --> 00:26:41.460
dematerialise before the doors are closed thing as a hurry up

520
00:26:41.460 --> 00:26:42.059
hurry up thing.

521
00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:44.220
No, no, no, but I mean the scene of him just walking past.

522
00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:46.079
You know, like, why does he do that?

523
00:26:46.140 --> 00:26:48.599
You know, as I guess we said before.

524
00:26:48.779 --> 00:26:53.519
What would be wrong with ringing a big bell and getting them all

525
00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:55.200
into the amphitheatre and telling them to leave?

526
00:26:55.259 --> 00:26:58.079
The doctor says it doesn't work and sure that's fine.

527
00:26:58.259 --> 00:27:03.000
I mean, that's very much the David Whitaker view of how history

528
00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:06.900
works because we get a brief discussion of it at the end of reign

529
00:27:06.900 --> 00:27:11.700
of terror and we get it in his novelisation of the crusade where

530
00:27:11.700 --> 00:27:17.160
pretty much the characters say you could slip Robespierre a note

531
00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:20.400
saying he's going to be deposed and he would think it came from

532
00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:21.660
the hand of a madman.

533
00:27:21.779 --> 00:27:25.980
You could, you know, you could chuck a boulder in the river to

534
00:27:25.980 --> 00:27:29.039
stem the river, but the pressure will build up and it will just go

535
00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:31.859
round the rock. why doesn't that apply now?

536
00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:36.539
Why doesn't that apply when the doctor is, you know, in Gloucester

537
00:27:36.539 --> 00:27:37.740
in 2020?

538
00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:40.799
Why why is that it any different?

539
00:27:40.859 --> 00:27:45.900
It just seems, I think the problem with coming up with a

540
00:27:45.900 --> 00:27:51.299
definitive answer for that in the context of writing the show is

541
00:27:51.299 --> 00:27:53.099
that you would break the show.

542
00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:56.460
You would have to say we cannot have any more adventures in

543
00:27:56.460 --> 00:28:00.660
history, or you would have to say nothing the characters do

544
00:28:00.660 --> 00:28:01.259
matter.

545
00:28:01.319 --> 00:28:04.559
So you have to find a balance of it, and it's not a healthy

546
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:08.220
balance by any means, but it's a balance that...

547
00:28:08.220 --> 00:28:12.299
I'm not I'm not even sure you could say it stands up to scrutiny

548
00:28:12.299 --> 00:28:16.440
but it's more, if you accept at face value what the characters say

549
00:28:16.440 --> 00:28:17.579
it works.

550
00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:22.920
You remember when we were talking about tooth and claw and having

551
00:28:22.920 --> 00:28:25.380
Queen Victoria die at the end.

552
00:28:25.500 --> 00:28:30.720
And we can't do that because then Doctor Who stops being in the

553
00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:32.700
world that we're in or something.

554
00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:38.400
Like, it seems to be just a sort of, it's an aesthetic choice to

555
00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:42.480
have the doctor not interfere with the kind of history that the

556
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:43.799
viewers are aware of.

557
00:28:43.859 --> 00:28:46.559
But I will interject, though.

558
00:28:46.619 --> 00:28:50.220
There is the time where RTD made the meth and then he either

559
00:28:50.220 --> 00:28:52.799
deliberately made the meth so that he could clean it up in an

560
00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:55.559
interesting way or he fixed his own mistake, quote unquote mistake

561
00:28:55.559 --> 00:29:00.420
even though it wasn't our history, which is the Christmas

562
00:29:00.420 --> 00:29:01.140
invasion.

563
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:05.279
And him bringing down Harriet Jones, who is supposed to lead

564
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:07.740
Britain to the Golden Age, all those such of things, and be much

565
00:29:07.740 --> 00:29:09.059
longer in her proposed.

566
00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:12.539
Him bringing her down makes the vacuum in history that the master

567
00:29:12.539 --> 00:29:13.079
fills.

568
00:29:13.140 --> 00:29:14.279
Yeah.

569
00:29:14.339 --> 00:29:19.380
So there is some sense that RTD keeps going back to that you need

570
00:29:19.380 --> 00:29:20.579
to be really careful with it.

571
00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:22.619
It's not that it can't be done.

572
00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:25.140
It's that when the doctor is stupid, he does it badly.

573
00:29:25.259 --> 00:29:29.099
And when he's acting out of emotion or anger, he does it badly.

574
00:29:29.160 --> 00:29:33.779
And I think we're meant to think that's why Tenant, the 10th

575
00:29:33.779 --> 00:29:37.500
doctor here, is so hesitant to say if anyone, is because he'd be

576
00:29:37.500 --> 00:29:42.180
doing it purely from emotional concerns, but he never articulates

577
00:29:42.180 --> 00:29:44.039
why he can't save just these people.

578
00:29:44.099 --> 00:29:45.660
He never says.

579
00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:49.920
He never says, well, what do I know that Quintus one day will go

580
00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:54.599
up and he will kill Galba, and you know, whatever, and the whole

581
00:29:54.599 --> 00:29:57.000
history of Roman Empire will be different and blah, blah.

582
00:29:57.059 --> 00:29:58.140
He never does anything like that.

583
00:29:58.200 --> 00:30:00.119
He just sort of doesn't help anyone.

584
00:30:00.299 --> 00:30:04.980
Well, like I like to think that the doctor's saving the family is

585
00:30:04.980 --> 00:30:07.319
actually what creates the Cambridge Latin text.

586
00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:14.400
But it also, it's interestingly enough, it leads to a whole family

587
00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:17.700
worshipping them as gods, which is an interesting thing.

588
00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:18.299
I like it.

589
00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:20.279
It's a fun note, I think, to end on.

590
00:30:20.339 --> 00:30:22.619
But at the same time, it's like, okay, does Quintus raise his kids

591
00:30:22.619 --> 00:30:25.200
to worship these people on their blue box?

592
00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:28.200
That seems like a dangerous trace to leave in history. especially

593
00:30:28.200 --> 00:30:31.019
considering he says to them, I was never here.

594
00:30:31.079 --> 00:30:33.420
He does the whole frontios nonsense.

595
00:30:33.539 --> 00:30:38.819
Yeah, I mean, you wonder whether I think maybe we were left

596
00:30:38.819 --> 00:30:42.539
wondering whether that would pay off, you know, that thing at the

597
00:30:42.539 --> 00:30:44.759
end, but I mean, I guess you hand wave it.

598
00:30:44.819 --> 00:30:46.500
Just the household gods of one family.

599
00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:47.460
Do you know what I mean?

600
00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:49.500
it doesn't matter all that much.

601
00:30:49.559 --> 00:30:52.980
It does actually, I don't know if it's conscious, but it does

602
00:30:52.980 --> 00:30:55.500
actually tie in with the fires of Vulcan.

603
00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:58.619
The big finish play because the fires of Vulcan starts with

604
00:30:58.619 --> 00:31:02.880
finding a fossilised impression of the Tartars in the ruins of

605
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:03.539
Pompeii.

606
00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:07.859
Not only that, but earlier on in the 80s, in the Dwim comics

607
00:31:07.859 --> 00:31:11.940
during the Stars fell on Stockbridge comic arc, they find a

608
00:31:11.940 --> 00:31:14.460
fossilised impression of the Tartar Underground somewhere.

609
00:31:14.519 --> 00:31:18.240
Russell T. Davies would at least know about the big finish play

610
00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:19.619
very possibly the comic as well.

611
00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:24.480
So it's a nice touch to imagine that that would be found, you know

612
00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:25.619
2000 years later.

613
00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:28.259
It's kind of funny, you know, that we don't see it in the black

614
00:31:28.259 --> 00:31:29.460
archive or something.

615
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:30.359
You know?

616
00:31:30.420 --> 00:31:34.799
It'd just be a nice little nod, but I suppose maybe they maybe

617
00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:35.880
they don't want to think about that.

618
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:41.160
It's a little bit like the blue box in the stained glass window in

619
00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:42.599
the end of time, part one.

620
00:31:42.660 --> 00:31:47.519
Like, I guess we might have been left expecting it to sort of come

621
00:31:47.519 --> 00:31:48.539
back in some way.

622
00:31:48.599 --> 00:31:51.839
And I actually like the, quite like the way that Quintus plays

623
00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:55.680
that. where, you know, the household gods.

624
00:31:55.740 --> 00:31:58.619
One of the things, you know, you said earlier, Eric, that these

625
00:31:58.619 --> 00:32:03.000
are just modern people, but they're wearing togas, not that they

626
00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:04.619
seem to know what togas are, but whatever.

627
00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:07.140
No, Dunn is wearing a dress.

628
00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:08.519
Yeah, diamond dress.

629
00:32:08.579 --> 00:32:12.420
Women did not wear togas, hold on your...

630
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:16.079
Um, but I guess they needed to put the word toga in just to kind

631
00:32:16.079 --> 00:32:21.660
of tick off their Roman tropes, you know, um, because the thing is

632
00:32:21.660 --> 00:32:26.460
that they believe in uh, fortune telling and so saying and they

633
00:32:26.460 --> 00:32:29.819
believe that things are caused by the gods and stuff in a way that

634
00:32:29.819 --> 00:32:31.259
we don't.

635
00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:36.539
And it's dealt with sort of weirdly, I think, here.

636
00:32:36.779 --> 00:32:46.259
I must say, I do love the soothsayer rap battle. between Lucius

637
00:32:46.259 --> 00:32:52.619
and Evelina and especially how it starts off with just both of

638
00:32:52.619 --> 00:32:56.519
them insulting the doctor and Donna and then gets really seriously

639
00:32:56.519 --> 00:32:58.680
dramatic and the lighting changes.

640
00:32:58.740 --> 00:33:02.279
Like, it goes all fiery and whatnot.

641
00:33:02.339 --> 00:33:03.779
And as she faints, it fades away.

642
00:33:03.839 --> 00:33:05.460
It's like, 0 my god, that was diagetic.

643
00:33:05.700 --> 00:33:07.079
Yeah.

644
00:33:07.140 --> 00:33:08.819
No, that scene is, of course, brilliant.

645
00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:13.380
But I do think they kind of, the thing, they want to have their

646
00:33:13.380 --> 00:33:14.099
cake and eat it too.

647
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:20.339
They need these people to be superstitious and focussed on, you

648
00:33:20.339 --> 00:33:23.940
know, the Roman deities as the modern viewer might understand

649
00:33:23.940 --> 00:33:24.480
them.

650
00:33:24.539 --> 00:33:27.240
But at the same time, they need them to be just folks.

651
00:33:27.480 --> 00:33:32.160
And so we get this really odd, I think, combination that doesn't

652
00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:36.240
necessarily work of like the modern art joke and get me a dormant

653
00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:38.099
all those, all those sort of things that make them seem like

654
00:33:38.099 --> 00:33:39.900
modern humans.

655
00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:44.039
And her son, her being proud of her son, the doctor, which no, you

656
00:33:44.039 --> 00:33:49.500
would not have been, um, combined with, yeah, that's not a good

657
00:33:49.500 --> 00:33:49.799
thing.

658
00:33:49.859 --> 00:33:55.440
Um, combined with, oh, but they need to be, you know, they need to

659
00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:58.200
be modern people who just happen to still believe in the gods of

660
00:33:58.200 --> 00:34:01.859
ancient Rome, um, and have tremendous superstition.

661
00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:04.680
And they don't quite thread the needle perfectly, I think.

662
00:34:04.740 --> 00:34:08.519
I think it would have been much better to drop the sort of their

663
00:34:08.519 --> 00:34:13.019
just folks angle and just have them be show us how alien the past

664
00:34:13.019 --> 00:34:13.320
is.

665
00:34:13.380 --> 00:34:15.780
And have them be different people.

666
00:34:16.019 --> 00:34:20.699
Certainly the very, very 1st historical in the new series doesn't

667
00:34:20.699 --> 00:34:26.340
seem to do that and is about the different types of intellectual

668
00:34:26.340 --> 00:34:31.679
worlds that these people inhabit, you know, that Gwyneth is in a

669
00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:35.280
very different world than rose is.

670
00:34:35.400 --> 00:34:40.019
But do you think that's because the Victorian era is so close to

671
00:34:40.019 --> 00:34:46.860
the time we live in now and so familiar to the British viewing

672
00:34:46.860 --> 00:34:51.059
public that you want to play out sea watching British viewing

673
00:34:51.059 --> 00:34:54.179
public is you know what the Victorian period is.

674
00:34:54.239 --> 00:34:58.079
So you can't really fiddle with that in the same way.

675
00:34:58.260 --> 00:35:02.219
But I think that often, you know, Victorian English people are

676
00:35:02.219 --> 00:35:05.880
just us with waxed moustaches and sort of sticks up our butts

677
00:35:05.880 --> 00:35:12.539
having that religious element played up and partly because you're

678
00:35:12.539 --> 00:35:16.500
doing Charles Dickens and the way his worldview changes throughout

679
00:35:16.500 --> 00:35:17.340
the episode as well.

680
00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:23.159
Whereas here, the comedy is, like it is funny that they have our

681
00:35:23.159 --> 00:35:27.719
concerns because we kind of know that they don't in the way that

682
00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:29.400
the Shakespeare code worked as well.

683
00:35:29.460 --> 00:35:36.059
And that's a very deliberate creative choice by the showrunners

684
00:35:36.059 --> 00:35:40.739
and the, like, and the people involved, like, They stated that

685
00:35:40.739 --> 00:35:46.980
many times that, you know, people in the past should be us, but

686
00:35:46.980 --> 00:35:52.440
you know, but in silly dresses and, you know, I think Casanova was

687
00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:53.880
the 1st time I saw it happen.

688
00:35:53.940 --> 00:35:55.079
RTD's Casanova.

689
00:35:55.139 --> 00:35:57.300
That's very much a Russell kind of trope.

690
00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:01.440
Like people back then are just like us now.

691
00:36:01.500 --> 00:36:05.400
And it's his shorthand to get you into the drama.

692
00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:09.960
Sometimes that doesn't work so well and sometimes that makes

693
00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:11.460
things less than believable.

694
00:36:11.699 --> 00:36:15.659
It's like you were saying earlier, Eric, like, there could be Zog

695
00:36:15.659 --> 00:36:16.980
monsters from the planet, Zog.

696
00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:21.000
You know, but as Russell says, we don't care about Zog Monks. the

697
00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:21.659
planet Zog.

698
00:36:21.719 --> 00:36:24.059
We care about the human colonists on the planet Zog.

699
00:36:24.179 --> 00:36:25.980
Super racist.

700
00:36:26.039 --> 00:36:27.119
Super racist.

701
00:36:27.179 --> 00:36:28.500
Absolutely super racist.

702
00:36:28.500 --> 00:36:32.159
I've been having a lot of fun recently rewatching Star Trek

703
00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:32.880
Voyager.

704
00:36:32.940 --> 00:36:33.539
You have?

705
00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:36.840
And yeah, there's a lot of, yeah, I know, fun.

706
00:36:36.900 --> 00:36:37.500
It can be done.

707
00:36:38.219 --> 00:36:44.460
Well, look, it's not as bad as my very serious 15-year-old self

708
00:36:44.460 --> 00:36:49.739
found it, but there is so much racism towards Tuvok there, which

709
00:36:49.739 --> 00:36:50.880
is passed off as comedy.

710
00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:53.699
Yeah, that's a feature of original Star Trek as well.

711
00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:57.480
Oh, God, like this is the 1st time Rod's watching original Star

712
00:36:57.480 --> 00:36:59.880
Trek because as a kid, he's like, nah, I lost in space.

713
00:36:59.940 --> 00:37:01.920
I want to watch Lost in Space. the same type.

714
00:37:01.980 --> 00:37:04.980
So I'm suffering lost in space when he's suffering original Star

715
00:37:04.980 --> 00:37:05.400
Trek.

716
00:37:05.460 --> 00:37:08.340
But yeah, every time McCoy really gets stuck into Spock.

717
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:10.079
Rod's like, well, that's just mead.

718
00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:14.099
You know, and quite frankly, it is sometimes.

719
00:37:26.820 --> 00:37:32.039
I was just thinking about a point, someone made earlier, with

720
00:37:32.039 --> 00:37:36.300
doctors not being held in the higher esteem back then as they are

721
00:37:36.300 --> 00:37:36.780
now.

722
00:37:36.780 --> 00:37:40.980
And I'm just trying to think of a way to rationalise that.

723
00:37:41.159 --> 00:37:45.780
And I suppose it would be that it's not so much that, oh, he's a

724
00:37:45.780 --> 00:37:48.420
doctor in the modern sense that you'll be very proud of your child

725
00:37:48.420 --> 00:37:51.840
becoming a doctor, it's he's following the path of the household

726
00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:52.260
god.

727
00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:53.760
Oh, yeah, yeah.

728
00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:57.179
Like, we're meant to read it that he's been inspired by the doctor

729
00:37:57.179 --> 00:37:58.260
to become a doctor.

730
00:37:58.320 --> 00:38:02.519
But in sort of no ancient Roman context is being a doctor

731
00:38:02.519 --> 00:38:04.980
something that you would want a freeborn Roman to do.

732
00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:09.300
Yeah, but the thing is, they're like, oh, in a way, you know

733
00:38:09.300 --> 00:38:12.659
you're taking this noble calling because it's a household god, even

734
00:38:12.659 --> 00:38:16.739
though it's not something impressive. you know, no one else will

735
00:38:16.739 --> 00:38:18.719
think it's impressive, but we understand why you're doing this.

736
00:38:18.780 --> 00:38:22.199
But in fact that he's just taking a modern attitude and sticking

737
00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:23.519
it there so that we can...

738
00:38:23.639 --> 00:38:23.940
Yeah, yeah.

739
00:38:24.059 --> 00:38:25.079
Because you works with that.

740
00:38:25.139 --> 00:38:27.900
I'm right down to Evelina going out in the too short.

741
00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:28.920
I mean, for God's sake.

742
00:38:28.980 --> 00:38:30.539
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

743
00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:31.800
I actually really like it.

744
00:38:31.860 --> 00:38:36.480
I like that the fact that Quintus is hung over when we 1st see him

745
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:40.619
and he's been at the Thermopoleon the night before and drinking

746
00:38:40.619 --> 00:38:41.219
and whatever.

747
00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:46.860
And then he's sort of a serious good boy, whereas Evelina, who had

748
00:38:46.860 --> 00:38:51.480
to be, you know, all religious and Sibylline and stuff, then gets

749
00:38:51.480 --> 00:38:52.920
to be a party girl afterwards.

750
00:38:53.039 --> 00:38:55.260
And I think that's really actually quite.

751
00:38:55.320 --> 00:38:56.519
That's a nice reversal.

752
00:38:56.579 --> 00:39:00.599
Yeah, but I just mean like the attitude is very absurd.

753
00:39:00.659 --> 00:39:02.039
Especially the hangover.

754
00:39:02.099 --> 00:39:02.699
Yeah, legit.

755
00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:03.659
Roman's got drunk a lot.

756
00:39:03.719 --> 00:39:05.880
So entirely possible that he would have a hangover.

757
00:39:05.940 --> 00:39:08.519
Uh, and he'd be eating like canary brains for it or something, if

758
00:39:08.519 --> 00:39:09.539
you believe plenty.

759
00:39:09.599 --> 00:39:15.659
Um, But it's, I think, I think what always irks me about this, and

760
00:39:15.659 --> 00:39:17.699
this is not a thing fires of Pompeii does individually.

761
00:39:17.820 --> 00:39:23.219
I think, I think we diminish and demean the past when we pretend

762
00:39:23.219 --> 00:39:24.659
it's the present in funny costumes.

763
00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:25.679
Yeah.

764
00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:27.360
And I think it has its own culture.

765
00:39:27.420 --> 00:39:31.320
Yeah, it has its own, they were different people as one of my

766
00:39:31.320 --> 00:39:33.300
favourite professors at university said.

767
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:36.719
Um, you know, people didn't used to think differently, but they

768
00:39:36.719 --> 00:39:37.860
thought about different things.

769
00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:41.099
And I, you might even quibble with the 1st part, but they

770
00:39:41.099 --> 00:39:43.980
certainly would not have thought about the same things.

771
00:39:44.039 --> 00:39:46.320
They valued different things than we do.

772
00:39:46.380 --> 00:39:49.199
And so their entire lives were structured differently.

773
00:39:49.500 --> 00:39:50.880
Yeah.

774
00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:55.079
And I think why bother exploring history, if it's just going to be

775
00:39:55.079 --> 00:39:58.619
about funny costumes and interesting sets and going to Chinichita

776
00:39:58.619 --> 00:40:01.199
if it's not going to be about exploring what it means to be in the

777
00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:01.500
past.

778
00:40:02.099 --> 00:40:08.099
Do you think the show ever does that or as spies to do that?

779
00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:10.800
I don't think the show does.

780
00:40:10.860 --> 00:40:16.019
I think I think the the medium or the the sort of uh, uh, franchise

781
00:40:16.019 --> 00:40:16.920
of Doctor Who does.

782
00:40:16.980 --> 00:40:20.760
I think some of the novels do that very deliberately where they

783
00:40:20.760 --> 00:40:24.599
actively try to explore the past and what it would be like to live

784
00:40:24.599 --> 00:40:26.940
in the past or different cultures.

785
00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:29.639
I'm thinking some of the Kate Orman books, like Room with No Doors

786
00:40:29.639 --> 00:40:32.940
that said in like feudal Japan, and is very much about like, feudal

787
00:40:32.940 --> 00:40:37.260
Japan is not like England, which I think is good and interesting.

788
00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:40.139
Um, and other another of the novels do it.

789
00:40:40.199 --> 00:40:42.420
I'm not sure if any of the big finish really bother with that.

790
00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:45.000
I think they tend to take Boy's book of history approach to

791
00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:45.360
things.

792
00:40:45.420 --> 00:40:49.679
Um, And I think maybe some of the Hartnell ones too as well.

793
00:40:49.739 --> 00:40:52.980
Kind of some of the serious Hartnell ones do actually attempt to

794
00:40:52.980 --> 00:40:54.360
explore what history is like.

795
00:40:54.659 --> 00:40:59.219
But I mean, for them, I think it's a source of unusual threats.

796
00:40:59.280 --> 00:41:05.940
So when Hartnell's history is not doing the romp that the new

797
00:41:05.940 --> 00:41:12.179
series does, it's creating, you know, strange unusual situations

798
00:41:12.179 --> 00:41:18.179
for them to be threatened by and to escape from, I'm not super

799
00:41:18.179 --> 00:41:21.000
convinced that it properly engages with the past.

800
00:41:21.480 --> 00:41:26.340
One that does for me from big finish, and it's funny you say big

801
00:41:26.340 --> 00:41:28.800
boy's book of history, because I'm going to talk about a woman

802
00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:33.840
Carolyn Simcox, who writes the Council of Nicea.

803
00:41:33.900 --> 00:41:34.739
Oh, yeah.

804
00:41:34.739 --> 00:41:39.300
And I don't know if she also writes Son of the Dragon, but those

805
00:41:39.300 --> 00:41:43.739
are 2 that are pure historicals.

806
00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:48.420
They use the character of Eramim and compare her reactions to

807
00:41:48.420 --> 00:41:51.659
Perry to what we would consider history.

808
00:41:51.780 --> 00:41:55.920
And the Council of Nicea is so focussed on the politics of the

809
00:41:55.920 --> 00:42:00.360
time, without any science fictional elements. that I think it's

810
00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:03.300
one that actually does embrace what you're talking about and

811
00:42:03.300 --> 00:42:07.619
showing the past as it really was rather than a filter of what we

812
00:42:07.619 --> 00:42:10.320
think it was and the horrible histories version.

813
00:42:10.619 --> 00:42:13.980
I tend to agree with you on that, Brendan.

814
00:42:14.039 --> 00:42:17.579
Like it's one of the better early, early now.

815
00:42:17.639 --> 00:42:20.519
Yeah, yeah. was still around number 70 or something.

816
00:42:20.579 --> 00:42:24.000
Um, as opposed to number 235.

817
00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:25.260
What have we got to do now?

818
00:42:25.320 --> 00:42:28.079
It's yeah, it does it really well.

819
00:42:28.139 --> 00:42:31.920
I was really impressed with that. and also heartbreaking what

820
00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:32.880
happens in it as well.

821
00:42:32.940 --> 00:42:35.760
Let's not talk about that because we're talking about Pizer Pop.

822
00:42:35.820 --> 00:42:41.400
Yeah, but I think it's, I do think it's, um, it's history being

823
00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:44.460
used as backdrop because of all of recognised Pompeii.

824
00:42:44.519 --> 00:42:48.480
Pompeii being used because they want us to get to the heart of the

825
00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:49.619
moral decision quickly.

826
00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:56.639
It's a story written around having the doctor make that choice.

827
00:42:56.760 --> 00:43:01.199
And him showing us, that's what it means to be the time lord, the

828
00:43:01.199 --> 00:43:01.980
only one left.

829
00:43:02.039 --> 00:43:03.960
And him showing Donna.

830
00:43:04.019 --> 00:43:05.579
That what it means to be the time lord. anyone left.

831
00:43:05.699 --> 00:43:08.280
And also giving Donna a role.

832
00:43:08.340 --> 00:43:11.639
You know, like making, yeah, like reestablishing that Donna's role

833
00:43:11.639 --> 00:43:12.780
is to pull him back from that.

834
00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:13.679
Yes.

835
00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:16.800
To bring us back to that moment in a Christmas invasion, not

836
00:43:16.800 --> 00:43:18.840
Christmas invasion, Runaway bride.

837
00:43:18.900 --> 00:43:23.880
Yeah, where they, where she, he drowns all the baby Raknuff. nice.

838
00:43:23.940 --> 00:43:25.619
Well, you flush spiders down the sink.

839
00:43:25.739 --> 00:43:26.460
That's what you did.

840
00:43:26.940 --> 00:43:29.340
And their cousin, the scorpions.

841
00:43:30.119 --> 00:43:35.699
But yeah, it does feel like they had this idea for we want the

842
00:43:35.699 --> 00:43:37.380
doctor to have this moral choice.

843
00:43:37.679 --> 00:43:43.500
And he then it structured everything around setting up that

844
00:43:43.500 --> 00:43:44.400
situation.

845
00:43:44.579 --> 00:43:47.940
Even though I think, as you say, Nathan, I think you're right, the

846
00:43:47.940 --> 00:43:48.960
moral choice feels false.

847
00:43:49.019 --> 00:43:51.599
And so, well, I find the episode very moving.

848
00:43:51.659 --> 00:43:54.960
I don't think about it in the sense of like, oh, that's a real

849
00:43:54.960 --> 00:43:55.320
thinker.

850
00:43:55.380 --> 00:43:58.980
Like some of the moral choice ones that would be later on in the

851
00:43:58.980 --> 00:44:02.519
like the harness stories can be legitimately like, I don't know

852
00:44:02.519 --> 00:44:03.480
what the right answer is.

853
00:44:03.539 --> 00:44:04.440
Yeah.

854
00:44:04.500 --> 00:44:06.719
You know, this one feels like, well, that's obvious.

855
00:44:06.780 --> 00:44:07.260
What do you do?

856
00:44:07.320 --> 00:44:07.800
You do this.

857
00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:17.699
I think maybe Vinay Patel's 1st episode, does a better job in that

858
00:44:17.699 --> 00:44:23.219
what's at risk is the existence of Yaz, and they probably don't

859
00:44:23.219 --> 00:44:28.860
lean into it quite enough, but this is a dodgy place to interfere

860
00:44:28.860 --> 00:44:34.079
not because it's a fixed point in time, but because it's the

861
00:44:34.079 --> 00:44:38.519
origin of Yaz's family, and it actually risks the existence of her

862
00:44:38.579 --> 00:44:38.820
family.

863
00:44:38.880 --> 00:44:40.079
It makes it real.

864
00:44:40.139 --> 00:44:41.159
Yeah.

865
00:44:41.219 --> 00:44:44.219
And whether the decision that the doctor makes there is fair or

866
00:44:44.219 --> 00:44:45.059
right or whatever.

867
00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:49.980
The stakes are a little bit clearer than like waters of Mars for

868
00:44:49.980 --> 00:44:50.219
me.

869
00:44:50.280 --> 00:44:56.340
It seems to me that the doctor is behaving in such a way to ensure

870
00:44:56.340 --> 00:45:00.840
that none of the Wikipedia pages, he's read need revision.

871
00:45:00.960 --> 00:45:02.400
Do you know what I mean?

872
00:45:02.460 --> 00:45:07.800
It's like, it's like every new Star Trek episode, uh, or Star Wars

873
00:45:07.800 --> 00:45:12.480
you know, will uh, Wikipedia have to be rewritten as a result of

874
00:45:12.480 --> 00:45:16.500
this and uh, if it uh, interferes with too many Wikipedia pages.

875
00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:17.099
It a bad film.

876
00:45:17.159 --> 00:45:20.400
And the answer to that is yes.

877
00:45:21.659 --> 00:45:23.639
That is the right decision.

878
00:45:23.760 --> 00:45:25.199
Yeah.

879
00:45:25.260 --> 00:45:29.099
No, it's it, but I do just keep coming back to this idea that it's

880
00:45:29.099 --> 00:45:33.300
an episode designed to raise a question that it then dismisses

881
00:45:33.300 --> 00:45:37.019
without actually confronting it in any serious way, almost as if

882
00:45:37.019 --> 00:45:40.559
RTD said, we need to raise this and give a good enough answer

883
00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:42.599
their fixed point in time.

884
00:45:42.659 --> 00:45:44.820
How do you know at fixed point in time, the doctor knows it when

885
00:45:44.820 --> 00:45:45.300
he sees it.

886
00:45:45.360 --> 00:45:47.880
He sees the strands of time.

887
00:45:47.940 --> 00:45:49.679
And that's that's it.

888
00:45:49.800 --> 00:45:54.059
So he's trying to resolve a problem that the show has always had

889
00:45:54.059 --> 00:45:57.179
by creating a new bit of law for the show.

890
00:45:57.239 --> 00:46:02.400
But even then, even after the, I can't, you know, this is a fixed

891
00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:03.599
point, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

892
00:46:03.659 --> 00:46:06.480
It cops out of actually making him make that decision.

893
00:46:06.539 --> 00:46:11.099
He has to make that decision to destroy the aliens who are going

894
00:46:11.099 --> 00:46:12.719
to alter the timeline.

895
00:46:12.780 --> 00:46:18.000
So he actually says, you know, you have to intervene to defeat

896
00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:25.440
these aliens and the, the consequence of that, if you like to read

897
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:27.900
it that way, is that Pompeii dies.

898
00:46:27.960 --> 00:46:33.119
Not, not, you have to kill all these people, but the aliens, the

899
00:46:33.119 --> 00:46:34.619
aliens, the reason you're doing this.

900
00:46:34.679 --> 00:46:37.139
So it actually, it sidesteps that.

901
00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:37.980
Yeah.

902
00:46:38.039 --> 00:46:41.400
So if there wasn't a fixed point in time, the right moral decision

903
00:46:41.400 --> 00:46:47.639
still would have been to destroy Pompeii because of the empire of

904
00:46:47.639 --> 00:46:49.440
fire or whatever, yeah.

905
00:46:49.980 --> 00:46:54.300
And it does it does make you wonder if a fixed point in time is

906
00:46:54.300 --> 00:46:57.539
simply defined as the thing the doctor did and he can't undo it

907
00:46:57.539 --> 00:46:58.199
because he did it.

908
00:46:58.199 --> 00:47:02.460
You know, like if the destruction of Compe is a fixed point in

909
00:47:02.460 --> 00:47:04.139
time and it's the thing that he made.

910
00:47:04.199 --> 00:47:06.420
He made it happen that way.

911
00:47:06.480 --> 00:47:09.300
It's like, oh, well maybe that's what makes it fixed, is the

912
00:47:09.300 --> 00:47:10.920
doctor's already been here and interfered.

913
00:47:10.980 --> 00:47:15.119
And so he doesn't know that, obviously, but, you know, he gets

914
00:47:15.119 --> 00:47:17.519
someplace and he's like, hmm, this is a fixed point because I'm

915
00:47:17.519 --> 00:47:19.559
the one who did it and I can't undo my own thing.

916
00:47:19.619 --> 00:47:21.960
Of course, they have the doctor again, undoes that.

917
00:47:22.019 --> 00:47:25.860
But Moffatt had a much more playful sense of what could and

918
00:47:25.860 --> 00:47:26.280
couldn't be done.

919
00:47:26.340 --> 00:47:27.000
Yeah.

920
00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:27.599
Yeah.

921
00:47:27.659 --> 00:47:32.099
And I think too, as you pointed out earlier, some problem with

922
00:47:32.099 --> 00:47:36.659
utilitarian is, you know, the doctor has to kind of Kobayashi Maru

923
00:47:36.659 --> 00:47:38.039
his way out of that situation.

924
00:47:38.699 --> 00:47:41.460
And that's what Moffat does all the time.

925
00:47:41.519 --> 00:47:43.559
We look like we're about to tell this story.

926
00:47:43.679 --> 00:47:46.800
But then he says, no, that story's not good enough and we're going

927
00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:47.760
to tell a better one.

928
00:47:48.360 --> 00:47:50.940
On the topic of Stephen Moffatt.

929
00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:54.539
It's such a shame that he didn't come up with the idea of a

930
00:47:54.539 --> 00:47:58.139
companion with multiple facets throughout the timeline for Amy

931
00:47:58.139 --> 00:47:58.920
Pond.

932
00:47:58.980 --> 00:48:03.780
Given that Karen Gillan is one of the sisters of the Sibele.

933
00:48:03.840 --> 00:48:08.219
She's the one running around making giant eyes at Tenant and

934
00:48:08.219 --> 00:48:08.880
Donna's back.

935
00:48:08.940 --> 00:48:09.840
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

936
00:48:09.900 --> 00:48:12.599
She's after Catherine Tate's job, I think, probably.

937
00:48:12.659 --> 00:48:13.260
Yeah, yeah.

938
00:48:13.320 --> 00:48:16.619
And the amazing thing is, look, I researched and I don't think

939
00:48:16.619 --> 00:48:17.340
this is the case.

940
00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:22.260
She puts on such a posh RP accent that I was certain it was

941
00:48:22.260 --> 00:48:22.800
dubbed.

942
00:48:23.159 --> 00:48:24.420
Yeah, no, no, it's not.

943
00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:25.920
You can actually her.

944
00:48:25.980 --> 00:48:28.199
Well, because you can hear her struggling to do the accent.

945
00:48:28.260 --> 00:48:31.380
That's the fun thing about it And Capaldi as well.

946
00:48:31.440 --> 00:48:34.619
You know, sometimes gives posh readings.

947
00:48:34.679 --> 00:48:38.820
He has to do the Welsh accent a couple of times because whenever

948
00:48:38.820 --> 00:48:42.900
the doctor sees ipso facto or status quo or something, he goes

949
00:48:42.900 --> 00:48:43.260
that's lovely.

950
00:48:45.239 --> 00:48:49.920
Yeah, which perhaps gets a little bit tiresome by the end.

951
00:48:50.099 --> 00:48:53.280
And he's incredibly good as well.

952
00:48:53.340 --> 00:48:56.880
Like, this is, he's fabulously overcast.

953
00:48:56.940 --> 00:49:02.219
And I can't help imagining him thinking, oh, well, you know, wow, I

954
00:49:02.219 --> 00:49:05.400
get to be in Doctor Who, because we know what an incredible fanboy

955
00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:06.599
he was.

956
00:49:06.659 --> 00:49:13.260
Um, little suspecting that um, he would, uh, this is his Commander

957
00:49:13.260 --> 00:49:15.000
Maxil, yeah, all along.

958
00:49:15.059 --> 00:49:17.699
Yeah, if Colin Baker can do it, why can't?

959
00:49:18.719 --> 00:49:21.480
And our, you know, our final connection to the broader Doctor Who

960
00:49:21.480 --> 00:49:26.460
universe, of course, is Dame Tracy Childs, Asmatola, who is Klein

961
00:49:26.460 --> 00:49:27.780
in the big finish audios.

962
00:49:27.840 --> 00:49:29.039
Oh, okay.

963
00:49:30.599 --> 00:49:34.019
The alternate universe X Nazi scientist companion to the 7th

964
00:49:34.019 --> 00:49:34.380
doctor.

965
00:49:34.440 --> 00:49:38.099
Oh, that doesn't sound ethically sort of problematic in anyway at

966
00:49:38.099 --> 00:49:39.000
all. sounds awesome.

967
00:49:39.059 --> 00:49:41.460
Completing the Tracy Child circle.

968
00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:46.800
Her 1st big finish was Colditz, featuring David Tennant as the

969
00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:47.159
villain.

970
00:49:47.219 --> 00:49:48.360
Ah, there we go.

971
00:49:48.360 --> 00:49:49.440
And Nazis.

972
00:49:49.500 --> 00:49:50.400
And Nazis.

973
00:49:50.460 --> 00:49:55.559
So it brings us back to some Gatus's new script.

974
00:49:55.619 --> 00:49:56.159
Oh my god.

975
00:49:56.760 --> 00:50:02.579
And of course, we do have, like, we do have the, um, like, the

976
00:50:02.579 --> 00:50:06.539
12th doctor does deliberately reference the fact that he's seen

977
00:50:06.539 --> 00:50:09.900
this face before, and although it's not until what the girl who

978
00:50:09.900 --> 00:50:11.400
died, where he realises why.

979
00:50:11.460 --> 00:50:12.719
Yeah.

980
00:50:12.719 --> 00:50:16.440
And it's like, he took Kaiselius's face because he knew that this

981
00:50:16.440 --> 00:50:19.920
incarnation of the doctor would be just as much of a jerk as the

982
00:50:19.920 --> 00:50:23.400
10th doctor tries to be in this story. and abandon people he could

983
00:50:23.400 --> 00:50:23.699
save.

984
00:50:23.940 --> 00:50:26.460
And that is, you shouldn't do that.

985
00:50:26.519 --> 00:50:27.420
And then he shouldn't do that.

986
00:50:27.480 --> 00:50:29.699
And then it's something the 12th doctor actually does quite a bit

987
00:50:29.699 --> 00:50:32.460
until that moment and then he does it much less after that.

988
00:50:32.579 --> 00:50:36.420
Once he realises, oh, that's what this face is reminding me of.

989
00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:40.800
But also, you could argue that probably that was a mistake given

990
00:50:40.800 --> 00:50:45.179
where that character goes with her extra life.

991
00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:47.159
Yeah, no, that's entirely true.

992
00:50:47.219 --> 00:50:51.360
I think Tatwood points out that, or someone, I'm sure this has

993
00:50:51.360 --> 00:50:54.599
been pointed out any number of times, that, you know, we're lucky

994
00:50:54.599 --> 00:50:58.980
the doctor never ran into John Frobisher, you know, who, you know

995
00:50:58.980 --> 00:51:03.000
sells children to alien paedophiles and then shoots his entire

996
00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:03.420
family.

997
00:51:05.039 --> 00:51:08.940
Yeah, which you'd think the British public might know about from

998
00:51:08.940 --> 00:51:10.380
this little thing called the news.

999
00:51:10.800 --> 00:51:15.300
And this is, it's actually something I believe RTD had like an

1000
00:51:15.300 --> 00:51:16.139
explanation for.

1001
00:51:16.619 --> 00:51:19.440
That he would, if he ever needed it.

1002
00:51:19.500 --> 00:51:23.159
He had something in his back pocket for why Capaldi had appeared

1003
00:51:23.159 --> 00:51:25.440
multiple times in the Doctor Universe.

1004
00:51:25.500 --> 00:51:28.619
Because we know for a fact that children of earth happens in the

1005
00:51:28.619 --> 00:51:31.079
same universe as the doctor, which...

1006
00:51:31.139 --> 00:51:31.440
Yeah.

1007
00:51:31.500 --> 00:51:34.139
But as well, you know, it's while he's taking a year off and dumb

1008
00:51:34.139 --> 00:51:36.059
and seducing Queen Elizabeth.

1009
00:51:36.119 --> 00:51:37.079
So, you know, it's fine.

1010
00:51:37.320 --> 00:51:41.579
You know, I'm not even convinced that Planet of the Oude next week

1011
00:51:41.579 --> 00:51:44.460
takes place in the same universe as this, to be honest.

1012
00:51:44.579 --> 00:51:48.420
Like, you know, like, it's one of those things that I don't spend

1013
00:51:48.420 --> 00:51:50.280
too much time caring about.

1014
00:51:54.179 --> 00:51:58.199
One of the things that we'll end up doing this season is talking

1015
00:51:58.199 --> 00:52:00.960
about the, like the, the arc watch.

1016
00:52:01.019 --> 00:52:05.460
Yeah, there is a kind of a weird thing where there's a series of

1017
00:52:05.460 --> 00:52:07.920
things that get dropped into nearly every episode.

1018
00:52:07.980 --> 00:52:11.940
And so last week, what, we had the bees disappearing.

1019
00:52:12.059 --> 00:52:13.079
Bees disappearing.

1020
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:15.960
And you had the experience of Adipose 3 and Rose. and Rose.

1021
00:52:16.019 --> 00:52:19.860
And so this time we had she's returning, which we probably know is

1022
00:52:19.860 --> 00:52:20.340
Rose.

1023
00:52:20.340 --> 00:52:21.780
What else did we have?

1024
00:52:21.840 --> 00:52:23.519
There's something on your back.

1025
00:52:23.579 --> 00:52:24.300
Something on your back.

1026
00:52:24.360 --> 00:52:26.099
And there's the pyrovile planet's missing.

1027
00:52:26.159 --> 00:52:30.480
So it's 2 planets in 2 weeks that have disappeared.

1028
00:52:30.599 --> 00:52:32.880
Also, when we had a reference to the shadow proclamation.

1029
00:52:32.940 --> 00:52:33.480
Yeah, yeah.

1030
00:52:33.539 --> 00:52:39.179
Another commonality I found between these last 2 episodes is it's

1031
00:52:39.179 --> 00:52:42.780
both of them include an alien race converting humans.

1032
00:52:42.840 --> 00:52:44.099
Yeah.

1033
00:52:44.099 --> 00:52:46.500
Because their planet has been lost.

1034
00:52:46.559 --> 00:52:47.340
Right.

1035
00:52:47.400 --> 00:52:51.000
So the adipose breeding planet has been lost.

1036
00:52:51.059 --> 00:52:55.980
So they are converting humans, and even the doctor last week

1037
00:52:55.980 --> 00:52:57.480
acknowledged, that could actually work.

1038
00:52:57.960 --> 00:53:03.420
And rewatched Pfizer Pompeii last night with my other half.

1039
00:53:03.420 --> 00:53:05.400
And he loves Catherine Tate.

1040
00:53:05.460 --> 00:53:06.960
So when I said, oh, we'll just watch episode two.

1041
00:53:07.019 --> 00:53:09.239
Well, you'll need to watch episode one so you understand episode

1042
00:53:09.239 --> 00:53:09.599
two.

1043
00:53:09.659 --> 00:53:10.739
I'm like, no, remember it.

1044
00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:11.579
We're watching episode.

1045
00:53:11.639 --> 00:53:12.119
Okay, right.

1046
00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:16.500
And this thing, halfway through the episode, he's just like, why

1047
00:53:16.500 --> 00:53:19.019
didn't the adipose just ask?

1048
00:53:19.079 --> 00:53:22.079
They would have loads of willing volunteers.

1049
00:53:22.139 --> 00:53:25.139
You know, you get to make a cute baby every night and lose

1050
00:53:25.139 --> 00:53:25.559
weight.

1051
00:53:25.619 --> 00:53:26.760
Take my fat.

1052
00:53:26.880 --> 00:53:31.139
Whereas, of course, the pyra vowels are even more underhanded and

1053
00:53:31.139 --> 00:53:33.000
it will destroy the host.

1054
00:53:33.059 --> 00:53:34.500
Yeah, you know.

1055
00:53:34.559 --> 00:53:40.320
But it's interesting that Russell T. Davies, when imagining these

1056
00:53:40.320 --> 00:53:46.139
planets go missing, then imagines 2 parasitic alien races. because

1057
00:53:46.139 --> 00:53:50.579
he, of course, creates the adipose, and he also created the

1058
00:53:50.579 --> 00:53:51.300
Pyravol.

1059
00:53:51.360 --> 00:53:54.300
James Moran's original pitch was a lot more historical.

1060
00:53:54.360 --> 00:53:57.780
It did have an alien menace, but wasn't as well defined.

1061
00:53:57.840 --> 00:54:00.239
And then Russell comes along and says, let's make them file.

1062
00:54:00.300 --> 00:54:02.039
Lets make them volcanic and they're converting people.

1063
00:54:02.099 --> 00:54:04.739
And the interesting thing about that too.

1064
00:54:04.860 --> 00:54:08.760
And Tatwood, I think, points this out in about time, that the

1065
00:54:08.760 --> 00:54:12.960
bodies of the people in Pompeii don't sort of, this is a bit of a

1066
00:54:12.960 --> 00:54:14.280
thing, but they don't really survive.

1067
00:54:14.280 --> 00:54:19.199
And what we have is, you know, plaster casts of them.

1068
00:54:19.260 --> 00:54:23.039
So they're turning to stone, you know, while they're still walking

1069
00:54:23.039 --> 00:54:27.599
around, even before archeologists come around and start creating

1070
00:54:27.599 --> 00:54:31.559
sort of mineral versions of the people who die.

1071
00:54:31.679 --> 00:54:32.400
Yeah.

1072
00:54:32.400 --> 00:54:38.219
And the thing is, the missing planets and yields to the, uh, leads

1073
00:54:38.219 --> 00:54:39.719
to this on tarn, 2 parter.

1074
00:54:39.780 --> 00:54:43.139
Um, that's that's why they're trying to convert the earth.

1075
00:54:43.199 --> 00:54:47.099
It is, it's surprising that when we were watching it.

1076
00:54:47.159 --> 00:54:49.920
And this the thing is because there's no way to guess what it all

1077
00:54:49.920 --> 00:54:52.199
leads to, but we were clear something was happening with missing

1078
00:54:52.199 --> 00:54:52.800
planets.

1079
00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:58.019
And, you know, whatever else we, but there was no, it's weird

1080
00:54:58.019 --> 00:55:00.360
because RTD didn't actually do arcs.

1081
00:55:00.420 --> 00:55:04.079
He did like drop ins of references, like torture.

1082
00:55:04.139 --> 00:55:04.800
Okay, great.

1083
00:55:04.860 --> 00:55:05.639
Torchwood.

1084
00:55:05.699 --> 00:55:06.900
Okay, they said Torchwood again.

1085
00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:07.920
So Torchwood something.

1086
00:55:07.980 --> 00:55:09.900
He did foreshadowing.

1087
00:55:09.960 --> 00:55:10.679
Yeah.

1088
00:55:10.739 --> 00:55:13.199
And not even really foreshadowing, just like saying a word over

1089
00:55:13.199 --> 00:55:13.920
and over again.

1090
00:55:14.039 --> 00:55:18.059
And then, like, if I said the word, um, flambaba to you every day

1091
00:55:18.059 --> 00:55:20.280
for a week, and then on Saturday told you what it meant.

1092
00:55:20.340 --> 00:55:23.340
It's not really sort of like Flambaba.

1093
00:55:23.460 --> 00:55:24.900
You're like, mm-hmm, indeed.

1094
00:55:25.019 --> 00:55:25.980
Great.

1095
00:55:26.039 --> 00:55:28.199
It's like, it's not actual information.

1096
00:55:28.260 --> 00:55:32.159
The, um, perhaps the closest it comes to an arc and again, it's

1097
00:55:32.159 --> 00:55:37.559
not very close because it is just references, uh, is the, we've

1098
00:55:37.559 --> 00:55:41.519
said this before, the master in utopia, you know, stealing the

1099
00:55:41.519 --> 00:55:44.940
TARDIS and travelling back in time to sometime in series two.

1100
00:55:45.900 --> 00:55:52.500
So that's a little bit more of an arc, whereas this is just a

1101
00:55:52.500 --> 00:55:54.659
series of things or themes.

1102
00:55:54.719 --> 00:55:58.019
I think it's, you know, we'll talk more about it as the series

1103
00:55:58.019 --> 00:56:02.039
goes on, but I think it's pretty good for what it is.

1104
00:56:02.340 --> 00:56:05.820
It does introduce, though, the actual, I would say, the thematic

1105
00:56:05.820 --> 00:56:10.440
thrust of season four, which is about war, um, and conquest, which

1106
00:56:10.440 --> 00:56:12.960
um, comes back and comes and goes.

1107
00:56:13.019 --> 00:56:15.420
And maybe Doctor Who is always about that, but given how the

1108
00:56:15.420 --> 00:56:18.960
season ends and how it's liberally about the doctor turning people

1109
00:56:18.960 --> 00:56:22.019
into weapons and things, the idea that the pyro vials looked like

1110
00:56:22.019 --> 00:56:25.019
giant Roman gladiators and they're in the Roman Empire, which is a

1111
00:56:25.019 --> 00:56:26.579
war empire, blah, blah, blah.

1112
00:56:26.639 --> 00:56:29.400
It sort of, it begins that sort of motif because it's not really

1113
00:56:29.400 --> 00:56:30.480
in partners in crime at all.

1114
00:56:57.539 --> 00:57:00.960
Well, dear listener, we're all going to leg it now before a

1115
00:57:00.960 --> 00:57:03.659
piroplastic search tells our brains to glass.

1116
00:57:03.659 --> 00:57:07.739
And so we'll be back next week to tie up some important loose ends

1117
00:57:07.739 --> 00:57:10.019
on the planet of the Oud.

1118
00:57:10.139 --> 00:57:11.099
Ow.

1119
00:57:11.159 --> 00:57:14.579
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1120
00:57:14.579 --> 00:57:17.639
and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook

1121
00:57:17.639 --> 00:57:22.500
at FT podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety

1122
00:57:20.940 --> 00:57:25.980
com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, and

1123
00:57:25.980 --> 00:57:27.119
Jody Interterterra.

1124
00:57:27.179 --> 00:57:29.519
Eric, where can people find you?

1125
00:57:29.760 --> 00:57:31.679
All over the place?

1126
00:57:31.739 --> 00:57:33.119
I have a variety of podcasts.

1127
00:57:33.179 --> 00:57:36.360
There's the real McCoy podcast, which some of you have recently

1128
00:57:36.360 --> 00:57:42.239
been on, which is about the 7th doctor and his times, we're about

1129
00:57:42.239 --> 00:57:45.179
to release an episode about Silver Nemesis.

1130
00:57:45.239 --> 00:57:47.699
So maybe come back after that one.

1131
00:57:49.019 --> 00:57:53.699
Uh, I also have a podcast called uh, the writer's room colon the

1132
00:57:53.699 --> 00:57:56.039
other limits where we're looking at the science fiction television

1133
00:57:56.039 --> 00:57:57.000
show the other limits.

1134
00:57:57.059 --> 00:57:59.760
I have one called so much stuff to sing, which is about American

1135
00:57:59.760 --> 00:58:00.360
Musical.

1136
00:58:00.420 --> 00:58:03.059
Anyway, you can find all of those links and everything else I do

1137
00:58:03.059 --> 00:58:06.119
at my Twitter account, which is at SJC off tonight.

1138
00:58:06.179 --> 00:58:14.099
S J-C-A-U-S-T-E-N-I-T-E. So, until next time, sit terra tibi lewis

1139
00:58:14.099 --> 00:58:16.079
thank you very much for listening and good night.

1140
00:58:16.139 --> 00:58:16.920
Good night.

1141
00:58:16.920 --> 00:58:17.519
Good night.

1142
00:58:17.579 --> 00:58:19.019
Gracias, TB.

1143
00:58:20.280 --> 00:58:24.420
That was Flight for Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Brendan

1144
00:58:24.420 --> 00:58:26.639
Jones, James Selwood and Eric Stadnick.

1145
00:58:26.699 --> 00:58:29.460
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings performance by Jane

1146
00:58:29.460 --> 00:58:30.360
Orberg.

1147
00:58:30.420 --> 00:58:34.559
This episode, the Cambridge Latin course, was recorded on the 27th

1148
00:58:34.559 --> 00:58:37.739
of January 2020 and released on the 22nd of March.

1149
00:58:41.340 --> 00:58:45.960
If you enjoyed this week's ethical dilemma, tune in next week when

1150
00:58:45.960 --> 00:58:49.440
we'll discuss the moral permissibility of electrocuting your

1151
00:58:49.440 --> 00:58:50.639
capitalist overlords.

1152
00:58:50.699 --> 00:58:52.199
We think you're gonna love it.

1153
00:58:55.260 --> 00:58:59.940
For me, what was fun or what was worthwhile about the episode was

1154
00:58:59.940 --> 00:59:02.099
being forced to care about those people?

1155
00:59:02.340 --> 00:59:08.219
We spend time with Kerkilius and his family.

1156
00:59:08.219 --> 00:59:11.159
And look, I'm going to butcher Latin pronunciations all through

1157
00:59:11.159 --> 00:59:13.139
this episode, so I'm going to try not to mention names.

1158
00:59:13.199 --> 00:59:15.360
And the word pronunciation.

1159
00:59:15.360 --> 00:59:18.059
I always say pronunciation.

1160
00:59:18.119 --> 00:59:19.800
I never say pronunciation.

1161
00:59:19.860 --> 00:59:21.119
And whenever I go to spelling it.

1162
00:59:21.119 --> 00:59:22.440
I was thinking it, James said it.

1163
00:59:22.500 --> 00:59:23.340
Sorry.

1164
00:59:23.340 --> 00:59:28.980
I was an English teacher and I think I was 29 when I found out

1165
00:59:28.980 --> 00:59:33.719
that there's only one, there's only 2 O's, I should say, in

1166
00:59:33.719 --> 00:59:35.099
pronunciation.

1167
00:59:35.159 --> 00:59:35.519
Yes.

1168
00:59:35.519 --> 00:59:36.599
There's no O in the middle.

1169
00:59:36.659 --> 00:59:37.380
That's right.

1170
00:59:37.380 --> 00:59:39.239
It's not pronounciation.

1171
00:59:39.239 --> 00:59:39.599
No.

1172
00:59:39.719 --> 00:59:40.739
Or pronounced.

1173
00:59:40.800 --> 00:59:44.159
It's one of those stupid situations where we've taken a letter out

1174
00:59:44.159 --> 00:59:47.699
for no readily explored reason and I've just said that in front of

1175
00:59:47.699 --> 00:59:48.539
2 linguists.

1176
00:59:49.739 --> 00:59:51.480
Yeah, look.

1177
00:59:52.139 --> 00:59:56.251
Yeah, we care about the family because...