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This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 13:08:13

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast, which carries a Fellman Lux coherency

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warning of 5011.

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On a good day.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Peter.

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I'm Johnny.

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And I'm a chatty disembodied donated park bench for this one.

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Have a seat and mind me splint.

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Well, it's the 51st century.

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We've materialised in a library and we're staring into the face of

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the very future of Doctor Who.

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We are terrified, confused and obsessed with an analysis of the

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nature of our own impending deaths.

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Welcome to silence in the library.

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Is it our dance or just our retirement?

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I think we're going to spend a lot of time over the next few

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episodes talking about Moffat's favourite tropes, but we might

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save some of that conversation for next week.

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This is your 1st time on the podcast, Johnny.

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I was wondering if I could ask you how you have felt about series

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4 so far.

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Um, I really like series four.

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I think it's probably the best of those 1st 4 series.

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And I think it's really helped by the pairing of the doctor and

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Donna.

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And I was saying to somebody else recently, but I think it's the

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1st time since the reboot, but the series has really had 2 leads

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in that we've got 2 stars of kind of equal stature.

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We've got, they, the storylines are divided up better between them

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and also because Donna is such, she's almost a kind of anti

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companion in lots of ways, kind of doesn't know how to act like a

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Doctor Who companion.

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She doesn't know how to run down a corridor, like she doesn't know

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what a Santarin is.

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She's kind of, and that reflects what Catherine Tate was doing in

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the program.

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So for the 1st time we really have something which feels balanced

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in the way.

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And in this two-party, you can see it happen again.

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One of them gets more prominence in one episode than the other.

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So it has such confidence this year of Doctor Who, I think.

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She's the scabbard to the foil of tenant, isn't she?

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And she's, and she's the mirror of tenant in, and I think the

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truth of tenant.

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I think Tenant was playing it truly, he'd be a lot more like

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Catherine Tate's performance, but again, we'll get to tropes and

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shtick later on.

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But I know who I'm favouring.

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I know who my eyes are watching on the screen when they're

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together.

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Yeah, yeah.

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They have some, they have that chemistry.

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And it's also, they just, it's sort of freed up a lot of it by not

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having to be a traditional doctor and companion, um, sort of

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relationship.

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And on a practical level, I think, um, Donna, Catherine gets more

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B plots and, if not, an actual B plot, more kind of relevance to

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the thematic qualities of the stories than Rose or um, Martha ever

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did.

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For me, I think the big difference is that she is able to smack

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tenet down, and one of the most annoying things about tenet is how

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kind of bombastic he is.

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And one of um, Donna's roles is to constantly kind of puncture

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that balloon.

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You know, the Sonic Screwdriver doesn't do wood, you know?

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There's different lines in the whole series.

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Whoa.

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Like she's constantly mocking him.

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She's constantly bringing him down.

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There's that scene earlier on this season where it looks like on

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their 1st meeting, Martha and Donna are going to fight, and David

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Tennant is clearly excited about the prospect of being fought over

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and they just refuse to do it, and Donna kind of sort of smacks

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him down and just, you know, that's not going to happen.

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Here I actually wonder whether Donna is...

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There's something about Donna's boredom and kind of impatience and

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stuff early on in this episode.

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So they arrive in the library and it's almost as if Donna isn't

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sort of interested in books.

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But it's what we were just saying.

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Johnny was just saying, it's the anti-doctor.

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She was not a reader as a child.

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She's the non-fan in our fan production.

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So she's the outsider within the library.

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You can really see any fan child watching this.

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Oh my god, it's my head.

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It's my life. why I watch Doctor Who.

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She doesn't know who Terrence Dix is, does she?

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She really doesn't.

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I don't believe she even mourned Peter.

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I believe she did.

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And she also, she sort of immune to all of the doctor's shtick in

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a way that the other companions are not.

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Like that has no effect on her because she has her own shtick.

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And really, she's the 1st companion allowed to be funny and

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allowed to be charming in and of herself, not in combination with

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the doctor.

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So it's unsurprising that she's probably not excited by the idea

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of following him around while he kind of sings beautifully about

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books, you know, like that's probably of no interest.

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So does this mean that because the doctor, the most doctor-ish

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thing you can imagine, is to be excited about being in a library

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Donna's function is to be a bit bored in the background and want

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to wander over to the little shop.

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I think too, though, she still manages to be as smart as the

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doctor, and she is right about the books.

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So when the doctor and her go up to the little computer terminal

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and discover that there's 2 human beings here, but a 1000000 other

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sort of living things.

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And she goes, it's not the books, is it?

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And it will turn out next episode, you know, in a very real sense

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it is.

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I mean, the doctor will use that 1000000 number to describe the

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book's next episode.

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So she's right.

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You know, we've had those relationships in Doctor Who before, where

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if the doctor and Donna disagree about something, Donna is right

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and the doctor is wrong and that's an unusual dynamic, I guess we

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probably had it with a doctor in Romana.

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I think the Donna's, Donna's role is also to notice what the

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doctor can't because he's too busy fighting the monsters and doing

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the heavy plot stuff.

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So it's her who kind of notices Miss Evangelister.

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It's her who's picking up on the weirdness of river song in this

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and so she plays a kind of, um, I will pick up on the important

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stuff which you're letting drop to the floor.

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The other thing about the Miss Evangelista thing is, of course, um

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when Donna's character kind of gets rewritten to become a regular

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and where they kind of throw out some of her kind of more sort of

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abrasive personality, um, the big thing that they give her, which

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is present, I think, in Runaway Bride, is her compassion.

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Like the reason that she goes after Miss Evangelista is that

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everyone else is being mean to her, that they're leaving her out.

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And so Donna, you know, goes up and speaks to her.

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And then later when Miss Evangelista is ghosting, she refers to

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Donna as the kind woman.

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And Donna is almost embarrassed to say, she means me.

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And it's almost impossible to imagine anyone calling Donna from

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the runaway bride, the kind woman.

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I think it's a really good rewrite.

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What they do for her character in series 4 is amazing.

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It's interesting that Moffat homes in on that.

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Because obviously we don't know what discussions happened between

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him and Russell and how much of this was explained.

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But we know that Moffatt's scripts were not, as a rule, rewritten

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by Russell.

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And so the fact that Stephen goes in on this, and that is really

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Donna's defining characteristic.

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And these episodes is interesting that he picked up on that same

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thing.

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I also thought along the same lines, the fact that we have a

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little shop, which is just from New Earth, it's not a Moffat thing

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it's not something that Russell has rewritten the episode to put

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in.

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I have a very strong feeling that Moffatt likes Russell's Doctor

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Who a lot. absolutely.

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Yeah.

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Like he's a big fan.

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And he continues to reference things from it in a really

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respectful way, even though he himself takes quite a different

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kind of approach.

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They can't fail to be a mutual respect there.

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They're both at the top of their game, and writers know quality in

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other writers.

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And respect difference because it's the joy of opening and of

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getting your sheath out and ripping open those little French

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novels and going all the way through them.

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Yes, those prochets.

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Hidden in some depth of the library somewhere. the joys, the joy

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of it.

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Access by special code.

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Writing isn't ego.

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Talking about writing is all ego.

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Well, this is much like this podcast.

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But no, writing itself is egoless, all creativity is egoless.

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Your constructed self is somewhere up there in the cloud, just as

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your ideas are.

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I was talking about this to a friend yesterday who's big creative

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force in Australian theatre and saying the same thing.

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It's just, no, I've been doing it all my life and I don't know

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where it comes from.

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That's the humbleness of creativity.

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It isn't you.

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So when you do get somebody's brilliant ideas that are not yours.

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It's a joyous childlike celebration.

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And that's why I love this story.

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There's a lot of levels in this story, but the main thing is, for

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me, this is about the isolated fan and growing up as a person who

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perhaps doesn't connect well with everyone else.

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And there's lots of layers of this, as we'll get to further down

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in the or what section beyond bibliography. way at the back.

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Right at the bottom of our Dewey decimals.

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There's a big sign out the window that says xenobiology that we

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see a shot of quite a lot.

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So way beyond there.

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I do think we missed a trick from not having Donna being able to

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employ her knowledge of the jury decimal system at some point in

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this.

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That was disappointing, wasn't it?

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Yes.

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Although it does link quite well with the previous story, which

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ends with a scene where the doctor shows Donner a book from the

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year 5 billion. and then the dialogue in this episode, after the

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cold open starts with the doctor saying books, you know, people

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never ever get sick of books.

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You know, there's hollow vids and was it fiction missed?

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Like all of these different things, but people come back down to

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books.

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And, you know, that speech, like everything in Moffat gets a

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callback, the fact that it's physical paper books, you know

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becomes important next episode.

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Um, I've been long prejudiced against this story for a long time

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and sort of biased against it, um, because I, uh, these really

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rare thing happened to me watching it, which is as soon as they

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show that bit at the beginning, which says 4000 people saved.

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I kind of clicked and went, oh, right, they can save to a hard

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drive.

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And then I had to do, and I need to emphasise, this never happens

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with me.

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I absolutely hopeless at this.

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And so that terrible thing happens where you've clocked it early

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and you've got to wait for everyone to catch up everyone in the

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story to kind of catch up to it.

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So I've never enjoyed this story as much as I've enjoyed Moffatt's

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other stories for the Russell T. Davies ear.

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And so from the script's point of view, it always seems a little

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obvious to me, and it always has, and that's probably not being

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very fair to the story as a whole, because now when I come back to

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it, it looks like a really sophisticated piece of writing, and it

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actually, it's one of those rare things where the script has got

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better with time, um, because we're all used to Doctor Who stories

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having continuity references in them, looking backwards at stories

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in the past, and watching in 2008.

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We didn't have that extra layer of meaning to bring to this, we

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watch to it now where we can see the future continuity references

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have played out really well.

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And so it actually becomes, and in particular, I think, for the

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part of River song, the waiver that's written, becomes so much

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richer now than watching it. back in the day.

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Yeah, you can hear the grinding of the literary teeth of Paul

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Cornell saying, that's my Benny.

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Yeah, that's right.

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Yeah, yeah.

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In fact, it has a real new adventures feel to it.

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Oh, yeah.

247
00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:18.120
She came off it.

248
00:13:18.179 --> 00:13:18.899
Yeah.

249
00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:21.000
Well, I suppose a good idea is a good idea, right?

250
00:13:21.059 --> 00:13:24.059
Like a time travelling archeologist who likes to drink and likes

251
00:13:24.059 --> 00:13:26.519
to do the things the doctor doesn't weren't necessarily doing

252
00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:26.879
something.

253
00:13:26.940 --> 00:13:28.080
Is someone else's idea?

254
00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:31.860
I can see the piano.

255
00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:38.039
I'd be really nervous So that's a review of the script

256
00:13:38.100 --> 00:13:38.820
plagiarism.

257
00:13:39.299 --> 00:13:41.460
It's a characterisation.

258
00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:43.139
Yes, I mean, book, we talked about this before.

259
00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:44.279
It's actually Scooby-Doo.

260
00:13:44.700 --> 00:13:49.620
You know, there was there was that Scooby-Doo villain that was a

261
00:13:49.620 --> 00:13:54.360
skeleton in a spacesuit. going back in the day.

262
00:13:54.419 --> 00:13:58.320
But it's also, it also, because he does read. he does he does like

263
00:13:58.320 --> 00:14:02.879
his psychoanalytical texts, Mr. Moff, and you can see that because

264
00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:04.259
he's still trying to work out who he is.

265
00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:06.659
And he's still trying to work out, dare I say, his relationship

266
00:14:06.659 --> 00:14:07.740
with women people?

267
00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:08.700
Yeah.

268
00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:09.840
And that comes across.

269
00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:12.240
And I think this is actually a really beautiful piece of writing

270
00:14:12.240 --> 00:14:16.080
because the protagonists, the vulnerable, the ones that lead the

271
00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:18.960
narratives, the ones that actually perceive what's going on are

272
00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:19.620
all women.

273
00:14:19.620 --> 00:14:21.600
And some of them are very, very young women.

274
00:14:21.659 --> 00:14:22.559
Some of them are children.

275
00:14:22.620 --> 00:14:28.019
And in fact, the child turns out to be the one that is the

276
00:14:28.019 --> 00:14:32.580
instigator of not, not, you know, jumping the shark till the 2nd

277
00:14:32.580 --> 00:14:32.940
episode.

278
00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:36.600
But even in this story, it's the person who is the character who

279
00:14:36.600 --> 00:14:40.019
was actually understanding and leading the narrative, is the is

280
00:14:40.019 --> 00:14:40.740
the observer.

281
00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:42.539
And it's one of the stories.

282
00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:47.220
I like Moffat stories, is that the doctor, even though he may be

283
00:14:47.220 --> 00:14:50.100
the Dale-Sex Mac, and, as you prefer to say, is it a machine?

284
00:14:50.100 --> 00:14:50.700
How do you say that?

285
00:14:50.759 --> 00:14:51.360
in Latin?

286
00:14:51.419 --> 00:14:52.620
Anyway.

287
00:14:53.039 --> 00:14:57.960
We aim to be true on this one. is that he works best for me when

288
00:14:57.960 --> 00:14:58.860
he's the narrator.

289
00:14:59.399 --> 00:15:01.080
And he is not even a facilitator.

290
00:15:01.139 --> 00:15:05.039
Others around him, show him how to be a better person, as Dawn is

291
00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:08.460
doing in this one, but he, so he's kind of really peripheral.

292
00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:12.840
He's just the sparkler on the side of the story, but it's the

293
00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:13.620
movements within.

294
00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:14.879
It's the stories within the stories.

295
00:15:14.940 --> 00:15:18.000
I think this is probably the best defining metaphor for a Doctor

296
00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:21.659
Who story that's been in this new series run.

297
00:15:21.720 --> 00:15:25.200
Maybe we've had different ones that do it, you know, and but I

298
00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:29.519
think as directness and and it goes quite deeply into into

299
00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:33.360
feminine protagonists and how women are treated in narrative as

300
00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:34.799
well, but I'll talk about that next step.

301
00:15:34.919 --> 00:15:37.919
There's a lot to say about that in particular next episode where

302
00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:42.000
we have kind of long stretches of time where the little girl is

303
00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:43.440
watching Doctor Who on television.

304
00:15:43.500 --> 00:15:47.220
You know, I mean, it sort of starts here, but that's a big element

305
00:15:47.220 --> 00:15:47.820
next week.

306
00:15:47.940 --> 00:15:49.860
Well, not to give him too much kudos.

307
00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:53.399
Of course, wasn't it Alfred the pig did the same thing in

308
00:15:53.399 --> 00:15:54.240
Greenacres?

309
00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:58.259
Greekers is the place to beat.

310
00:15:59.220 --> 00:16:01.860
It's so much to unpick there.

311
00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:06.120
And I think it's interesting what you said, Johnny, about Moffat's

312
00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:09.299
tropes being maybe a little bit more obvious than usual.

313
00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:12.419
And I wonder if that's a function of us becoming used to them and

314
00:16:12.419 --> 00:16:15.720
looking for something in the script, looking for the keyword or

315
00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:17.879
something that's not going to be what you think it is.

316
00:16:17.940 --> 00:16:22.139
Or I wonder if there's just too many troops in this episode

317
00:16:22.139 --> 00:16:25.860
because let's not forget that this story was broadcast less than 2

318
00:16:25.860 --> 00:16:28.139
weeks after it was confirmed that Moffat was going to be the new

319
00:16:28.139 --> 00:16:28.679
showrunner.

320
00:16:28.740 --> 00:16:29.159
Yeah.

321
00:16:29.220 --> 00:16:32.039
And so people were looking at this through a prism of that.

322
00:16:32.100 --> 00:16:37.019
And I think, although I do really like this story, and I think

323
00:16:37.019 --> 00:16:39.779
there's great quality on display, and I think it's a great example

324
00:16:39.779 --> 00:16:44.340
of proper adult Doctor Who, um, I think it's almost like the

325
00:16:44.340 --> 00:16:47.039
greatest hits of Moffat before the fact.

326
00:16:47.100 --> 00:16:52.440
And so there's so many Moffatian sort of things in there.

327
00:16:52.500 --> 00:16:56.399
So all of his big ticket ideas, be afraid of the dark because the

328
00:16:56.399 --> 00:16:57.659
shadows will kill you.

329
00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:01.200
The data ghosting, people have been saved, but there's no

330
00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:01.919
survivors.

331
00:17:01.980 --> 00:17:03.120
There's trees in a library.

332
00:17:03.179 --> 00:17:06.420
All of those really big ticket ideas, which would be the big thing

333
00:17:06.420 --> 00:17:07.619
in any other episode.

334
00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:09.900
He paused them in and packs them in.

335
00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:13.019
And actually it feels like it's a little bit wearing.

336
00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:14.759
Do you know, I don't feel like that.

337
00:17:14.819 --> 00:17:18.359
I get that idea, you know, that it's like a Bob Baker and Dave

338
00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:22.259
Martin thing where, you know, every 30 seconds we've got another

339
00:17:22.259 --> 00:17:25.019
new sort of idea completely unrelated to all of the others.

340
00:17:25.079 --> 00:17:27.900
I have Stephen Moffatt's libel suit.

341
00:17:27.960 --> 00:17:30.839
You're comparing him to Bob Baker and Dave Martin. hell see you in

342
00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:31.200
court.

343
00:17:31.259 --> 00:17:36.059
But he is obviously a much more skilled writer than them.

344
00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:41.880
And so I don't feel that the script is overstaffed.

345
00:17:41.940 --> 00:17:45.119
In fact, I think it gets it about right.

346
00:17:45.539 --> 00:17:48.660
And the sort of interesting things, you know, the other things

347
00:17:48.660 --> 00:17:55.500
that maybe you didn't mention that sort of very moffity, the idea

348
00:17:55.500 --> 00:18:00.660
of sort of levels of narrative and the relationship between the

349
00:18:00.660 --> 00:18:05.160
narrator and the story, in particular, the idea that if there's a

350
00:18:05.160 --> 00:18:09.299
narrator, their story will eventually catch up with them and

351
00:18:09.299 --> 00:18:12.059
they'll become involved in the story that they're telling.

352
00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:19.740
And so here, you have right from the cold open, you've got the

353
00:18:19.740 --> 00:18:27.180
idea that the doctor and Donna are, the imaginations of a child.

354
00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:31.200
So there's a child in a normal contemporary house, maybe even a

355
00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:34.859
little bit earlier, there's a very kind of sort of 1980s style

356
00:18:34.859 --> 00:18:38.819
sort of telephone and stuff, she is just sort of a normal child in

357
00:18:38.819 --> 00:18:43.319
a contemporary setting, but when she closes her eyes, she goes to

358
00:18:43.319 --> 00:18:48.720
the place where the doctor and Donna appear and that incredibly

359
00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:53.039
strange moment where the doctor and Donna start interacting with

360
00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:57.480
her, Like they notice her and starting to reacting with her just

361
00:18:57.480 --> 00:18:59.579
before the opening credits.

362
00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:05.279
Um, and, you know, she wakes up and, and, and then replaying that

363
00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:08.700
scene again later in the episode and we see that what the doctor

364
00:19:08.700 --> 00:19:12.779
and Donna actually saw was that sort of football, that, um, the

365
00:19:12.779 --> 00:19:13.799
security camera.

366
00:19:13.859 --> 00:19:16.380
Yeah, yeah, sort of wooden monopticon.

367
00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:22.859
And what Dr. Moon says, like Dr. Moon, in those scenes, initially

368
00:19:22.859 --> 00:19:27.480
Dr. Moon says, you realise the library's in your head and that

369
00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:31.259
this is the real world, and then just before the cliffhanger, and

370
00:19:31.259 --> 00:19:34.200
I think it's the most impressive part of the cliffhanger, is that

371
00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:38.519
terrifying speech where, no, this world is a lie and the things

372
00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:41.400
that you have nightmares about. those are real.

373
00:19:41.460 --> 00:19:44.339
And so those different levels of reality.

374
00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:48.480
Like, did you spot that, Johnny, I mean, you, you spotted that

375
00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:50.579
saved meant saved to a hard drive.

376
00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:55.859
Did you spot that the girl's real world was actually VR that was

377
00:19:55.859 --> 00:19:58.200
taking place in the same computer?

378
00:19:58.259 --> 00:20:01.259
I don't know if I spotted it per se, but I just kind of read it

379
00:20:01.259 --> 00:20:01.920
that way.

380
00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:05.160
You know, I didn't think there was anything too spot.

381
00:20:05.220 --> 00:20:06.240
Right. in that.

382
00:20:06.299 --> 00:20:09.660
Like I just sort of assumed that that's what was going on.

383
00:20:09.720 --> 00:20:13.140
But it's interesting what you say about trying to turn the

384
00:20:13.140 --> 00:20:17.640
characters into fiction, trying to turn the doctor and Donna into

385
00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:19.619
fiction, so she's watching it through television.

386
00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:24.480
We get this sense of people watching Doctor Who on television in

387
00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:27.359
front of us in a kind of trial of a time lord kind of way.

388
00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:30.599
And it's, I'm not sure what it means though.

389
00:20:30.660 --> 00:20:34.319
Like I'm not sure why we want to point out the fiction of it at

390
00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:34.619
this point.

391
00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:37.259
It's a Moffatt thing though, isn't it?

392
00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:41.039
Like Moffat is very, very much not creating a coherent world for

393
00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:44.880
the doctor to have adventures in in the way that Russell does do.

394
00:20:44.940 --> 00:20:48.720
Like Russell creates a coherent world where the cybermen all have

395
00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:51.480
you know, like a story and all of that sort of thing and

396
00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:52.920
everything follows.

397
00:20:52.980 --> 00:20:53.579
And I love that.

398
00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:54.299
Do you know what I mean?

399
00:20:54.359 --> 00:20:57.779
That's the sort of world that a 12 year old watching Doctor Who

400
00:20:57.779 --> 00:21:01.799
absolutely adores, whereas Moffatt is super aware of the

401
00:21:01.799 --> 00:21:03.539
fictionality of the premise.

402
00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:07.019
And so he will do things like reset the universe at the end of

403
00:21:07.019 --> 00:21:11.279
series 5 and have it recreated through the power of stories and

404
00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:11.579
stuff.

405
00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:14.940
You know, that's a very, very Moffat thing.

406
00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:21.839
One of my favourite things is going back to Edwardian Children's

407
00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:25.200
Fiction, which Doctor Who is just the natural inheritor of, but

408
00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:29.940
the story of being in a library in your head in a library is pure

409
00:21:29.940 --> 00:21:32.279
British children's storytelling.

410
00:21:32.339 --> 00:21:36.480
And in fact, you know, the outside of the library is this sort of

411
00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:41.339
fabulous, futuristic, but slightly deco kind of city and then

412
00:21:41.339 --> 00:21:45.299
inside the library is, you know, wood panelling and all of that

413
00:21:45.299 --> 00:21:45.900
sort of thing.

414
00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:49.920
But it's the safe place for fan children to go to to get away from

415
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:51.480
the sports field at school.

416
00:21:51.539 --> 00:21:52.680
This is, I think, another level.

417
00:21:52.740 --> 00:21:54.720
We were talking about the fan experience earlier.

418
00:21:54.779 --> 00:21:58.559
Moffa is not only interested in the way that TV is presented and

419
00:21:58.559 --> 00:21:59.579
consumed.

420
00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:03.059
He's also interested in the fan experience, and so what could be

421
00:22:03.059 --> 00:22:06.839
more fan than a young child watching the adventures of Dr. and

422
00:22:06.839 --> 00:22:09.420
Donna on screen, closing their eyes and being back there.

423
00:22:09.480 --> 00:22:14.220
And what could be more fan than the need to hide, and even the

424
00:22:14.220 --> 00:22:17.579
touching on, and this is where Moffatt's depths can't be under

425
00:22:17.579 --> 00:22:19.259
estimated.

426
00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:24.539
The spectrums that a lot of us fans have and that need for

427
00:22:24.539 --> 00:22:29.519
isolation and are not quite cluing into other people's emotions

428
00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:34.380
how others connect, but being able to do so through a medium of

429
00:22:34.380 --> 00:22:36.839
say, in this case, a library.

430
00:22:37.380 --> 00:22:40.259
Can we take that even further and say that as a child, your world

431
00:22:40.259 --> 00:22:42.779
was being surrounded by all those brilliant Doctor Who

432
00:22:42.779 --> 00:22:43.680
novelisations?

433
00:22:43.740 --> 00:22:44.819
I think absolutely.

434
00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:48.480
I mean, the library is not alien territory for the people watching

435
00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:49.559
this avidly.

436
00:22:49.619 --> 00:22:52.619
In fact, there were 2 things going on as a fan.

437
00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:55.019
You were watching it on television and then you were going to the

438
00:22:55.019 --> 00:22:58.200
local library to look for the books so that you could relive the

439
00:22:58.200 --> 00:22:58.799
experience.

440
00:22:58.920 --> 00:23:03.660
So there's, I really like this idea, but that what he's doing is

441
00:23:03.660 --> 00:23:06.539
mirroring the kind of fan experience of it.

442
00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:10.380
And if I think about what this story is about.

443
00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:14.700
I think primarily it seems to me about the power of relationships

444
00:23:14.700 --> 00:23:17.940
and friendships and about how we need people around us.

445
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:23.339
But maybe in sort of trying to explore the fictionality of Doctor

446
00:23:23.339 --> 00:23:23.880
Who.

447
00:23:23.940 --> 00:23:27.299
Maybe what it's also saying kind of above just, hey, aren't books

448
00:23:27.299 --> 00:23:31.200
awesome, you know, aren't stories awesome, but maybe is that the

449
00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:37.019
imagination is a kind of is a kind of sacred kind of place.

450
00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:42.839
A child's imagination is a kind of a locked off safe place for

451
00:23:42.839 --> 00:23:45.539
kids which needs to be preserved and needs to be cherished.

452
00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:47.039
It's definitely a place.

453
00:23:47.099 --> 00:23:48.900
Yes, thank you, Johnny.

454
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:49.859
It's the place.

455
00:23:49.980 --> 00:23:50.940
That's the plate.

456
00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:53.339
Well, no, because it's what I was going to touch on with Miss

457
00:23:53.339 --> 00:23:55.380
Evangelist later on.

458
00:23:56.039 --> 00:24:00.839
The place of safety and for a young child, in this case, a female

459
00:24:00.839 --> 00:24:04.259
young child who needs to find, I'll throw something up.

460
00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:06.299
Did anyone else find a chill?

461
00:24:06.299 --> 00:24:10.859
In this episode when Miss Evangelister is introduced and she said

462
00:24:10.859 --> 00:24:13.680
I'm his miss everything.

463
00:24:13.740 --> 00:24:15.960
I'm his assistant at everything.

464
00:24:16.019 --> 00:24:19.740
Well, you reckon that I'm going to go further with this because

465
00:24:19.740 --> 00:24:21.779
yeah, because it does.

466
00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:25.799
It actually talks about the safety of the individual and the

467
00:24:25.799 --> 00:24:28.500
safety of the small of the small child in this.

468
00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:32.339
If we're talking about Miss Evangelista, I think there's something

469
00:24:32.339 --> 00:24:35.880
kind of low-level problematic about her. character in this

470
00:24:35.880 --> 00:24:36.240
episode.

471
00:24:36.299 --> 00:24:40.200
And remember, she has got very different story next episode.

472
00:24:40.259 --> 00:24:46.140
But it's partly to do with that line, which I think might get a

473
00:24:46.140 --> 00:24:47.880
blue line through it these days.

474
00:24:47.940 --> 00:24:51.000
Well, it was right at the time when things were starting to come

475
00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:51.180
out.

476
00:24:51.240 --> 00:24:51.839
Yeah.

477
00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:55.619
And it's also, she's, she's um, a bimbo.

478
00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:57.900
She's named after a supermodel.

479
00:24:57.960 --> 00:24:58.259
Yeah.

480
00:24:58.259 --> 00:25:03.180
And she's kind of low-level bullied by everyone else around her.

481
00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:06.779
I'm just not sure you would put that character on screen.

482
00:25:06.900 --> 00:25:08.579
I think it's the...

483
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:09.180
I don't know.

484
00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:13.619
I think it's the same reason that J.K. Rowling writes Potter's

485
00:25:13.619 --> 00:25:15.059
actual father as a bully.

486
00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:17.940
It's the same reason that Moffatt looks as his own behaviour as

487
00:25:17.940 --> 00:25:20.819
being one of the smartest kids at school and remembering how he

488
00:25:20.819 --> 00:25:22.079
treated people in the group.

489
00:25:22.140 --> 00:25:25.740
Because I think if we look back, there are very few of us who did

490
00:25:25.740 --> 00:25:28.619
not treat other children like that, who we've read, did not come

491
00:25:28.619 --> 00:25:28.980
to our level.

492
00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:34.380
Yeah, I think, I think too, that she is like a child in that she's

493
00:25:34.380 --> 00:25:39.599
uh, she talks about her father, you know, she's, she doesn't have

494
00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:42.059
seem to have sort of like adult relationships.

495
00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:45.539
She's not overtly sort of sexual, she's pretty, but she's not

496
00:25:45.539 --> 00:25:47.700
described as sexy or anything like that.

497
00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:50.160
And she does that thing.

498
00:25:50.220 --> 00:25:53.579
The wandering off, you know, a door opens.

499
00:25:53.700 --> 00:25:56.819
It, irresistible to her, she goes off exploring to see what's

500
00:25:56.819 --> 00:25:57.119
happening.

501
00:25:57.180 --> 00:26:03.359
She is a little bit like the protagonist of a children's story.

502
00:26:03.420 --> 00:26:06.420
But I do also think that the reason that she's bullied.

503
00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:11.640
And she is bullied in a way that doesn't make us like Anita or

504
00:26:11.640 --> 00:26:13.980
other Dave any less.

505
00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:17.759
She's bullied in a way, and I guess I think it's her kind of

506
00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:19.200
obliviousness to that.

507
00:26:19.259 --> 00:26:23.940
Like she, she doesn't understand the nasty things that people are

508
00:26:23.940 --> 00:26:24.779
saying about her.

509
00:26:24.839 --> 00:26:27.000
She gets that she's being bullied.

510
00:26:27.059 --> 00:26:31.319
But I would say we all do when she when she cites the kind woman.

511
00:26:31.380 --> 00:26:33.660
I want to speak to the kind person.

512
00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:37.259
Everybody, everybody knows, every animal knows, the genuineness or

513
00:26:37.259 --> 00:26:38.400
other of your intent.

514
00:26:38.460 --> 00:26:43.259
It's quite a sophisticated take on bullying as well because yes

515
00:26:43.259 --> 00:26:44.160
they are bullying her.

516
00:26:44.220 --> 00:26:46.200
That's absolutely what's happening.

517
00:26:46.259 --> 00:26:50.220
But you can really see why they're not bullying her because she

518
00:26:50.220 --> 00:26:51.180
says she's pretty.

519
00:26:51.240 --> 00:26:54.900
They're not bullying her because they view her as being something

520
00:26:54.900 --> 00:26:57.480
less than themselves.

521
00:26:57.539 --> 00:27:00.240
It's because she keeps doing annoying things.

522
00:27:00.299 --> 00:27:03.000
And, you know, Moffatt's making her do that.

523
00:27:03.059 --> 00:27:06.240
You know, Moffatt's making her go to the escape capsule instead of

524
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:07.380
the bathroom or whatever.

525
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:12.599
Like he puts those details in where she is kind of really stupid.

526
00:27:12.779 --> 00:27:18.539
And I wonder whether the thing is that Moffat takes the most

527
00:27:18.539 --> 00:27:23.700
cartoon. of the characters there, which is Miss Evangelist, right?

528
00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:26.940
I think that she's so stupid that she doesn't get the plankton

529
00:27:26.940 --> 00:27:31.500
remark, you know, and she's ditsy and sort of funny and stuff.

530
00:27:31.559 --> 00:27:39.900
And then making her the person that we, like her death is one of

531
00:27:39.900 --> 00:27:43.380
the most affecting deaths, I think, in the history of Doctor Who.

532
00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:46.680
Miss Evangelista with maybe the candlestick in the library.

533
00:27:46.920 --> 00:27:48.839
Let's not forget.

534
00:27:48.900 --> 00:27:50.940
I guess my point is, could she have been a man?

535
00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:54.779
Like to avoid that whole, that whole treatment of that character

536
00:27:54.779 --> 00:27:58.680
in that particular way. agenda swap might have been the easiest

537
00:27:58.680 --> 00:28:01.500
one. glad you went there because it's deliberate.

538
00:28:01.559 --> 00:28:06.779
And even the notion of evangelical or ascendent or transcendent is

539
00:28:06.779 --> 00:28:09.359
in the name as well as the supermodel thing.

540
00:28:09.420 --> 00:28:13.259
No, she's a woman and let's not underestimate Moffatt's depth.

541
00:28:13.319 --> 00:28:15.180
I'm seeing imposter syndrome.

542
00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:20.039
A person will behave gullibly and stupidly and awkwardly when they

543
00:28:20.039 --> 00:28:23.579
are told they're no good, and you can tame a child from a very

544
00:28:23.579 --> 00:28:25.619
very early age to be told they're stupid.

545
00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:27.299
Now she has enormous amounts of empathy.

546
00:28:27.779 --> 00:28:31.740
As we now as Psych now reads, is actually a higher form of

547
00:28:31.740 --> 00:28:32.940
intelligence than IQ.

548
00:28:33.059 --> 00:28:34.680
So all of that is there.

549
00:28:34.740 --> 00:28:36.660
But to be told, you're an idiot all your life.

550
00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:39.960
That's why I love that line of, if they think I'm stupid because

551
00:28:39.960 --> 00:28:44.220
I'm pretty, because all I have consciously is my face.

552
00:28:44.220 --> 00:28:48.240
Because everything else is derided, but my face is the reason this

553
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:52.980
man has hired me and I am his factotum as miss everything.

554
00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:56.579
It's, I really do think it gets as dark as that.

555
00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:02.519
Mrs. Boundrel says hi.

556
00:29:02.579 --> 00:29:04.980
By the way, and she has something to throw in at this point.

557
00:29:05.039 --> 00:29:07.619
She wandered past the television as I was watching it.

558
00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:11.279
She said, the scene which you describe is heartbreaking the scene

559
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:14.460
where she dies, and I agree, it's really, and it's tragically

560
00:29:14.460 --> 00:29:18.059
written, all that bit about, if, you know, don't tell them, I said

561
00:29:18.059 --> 00:29:19.799
that stuff about me being stupid.

562
00:29:19.859 --> 00:29:26.880
But as, as Mrs. Banjo said, that device, the last thing that she

563
00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:30.779
hears is the thing which lingers in her mind, right, towards death

564
00:29:30.779 --> 00:29:33.839
is the sort of thing, is a warning, really, to be careful about

565
00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:34.619
what you say to people.

566
00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:37.619
Because you never know what if it's going to be the last thing

567
00:29:37.619 --> 00:29:40.319
they hear and if it's going to ring in their ears at the moment of

568
00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:41.279
their passing.

569
00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:41.819
So.

570
00:29:41.940 --> 00:29:44.519
Yeah, in fact, Moffat does shame those people.

571
00:29:44.579 --> 00:29:50.819
Like he has them standing there listening to her talk about what

572
00:29:50.819 --> 00:29:54.059
they've said about her and what they think of her.

573
00:29:54.119 --> 00:29:59.099
So they are embarrassed by the way that they've treated her.

574
00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:00.599
Can we talk about this?

575
00:30:00.599 --> 00:30:04.079
Because there is this thing that Moffatt has about death.

576
00:30:04.140 --> 00:30:08.099
You know, that's a big thing that's coming up all throughout his

577
00:30:08.099 --> 00:30:12.180
era and kind of rubbing our noses in the fact of death.

578
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:14.880
Now, people complain that Moffat brings people back to life and

579
00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:16.380
all of that sort of thing.

580
00:30:16.440 --> 00:30:20.220
But, you know, the don't cremate me thing in dark water.

581
00:30:20.279 --> 00:30:24.359
The, you know, what happens to Danny Pink in that same episode.

582
00:30:24.420 --> 00:30:29.279
We saw Dracula earlier this year and Dracula is all about what

583
00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:31.079
happens to you when you die.

584
00:30:31.079 --> 00:30:38.940
And here, having us forced to watch her die slowly in a completely

585
00:30:38.940 --> 00:30:42.960
kind of PG, non-gory way, but nevertheless, an absolutely

586
00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:47.640
heartbreaking and terrifying way where her thought to break down

587
00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:51.900
she's no longer able to think, like her brain has disappeared and

588
00:30:51.900 --> 00:30:54.960
all that's left is this sort of degrading memory pattern.

589
00:30:55.019 --> 00:30:59.160
I just find it absolutely chilling, like utterly terrifying.

590
00:30:59.220 --> 00:31:03.240
And the fact that people turn into, you know, your death at the

591
00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:06.900
time of your death, you'll turn from a person into an object, you

592
00:31:06.900 --> 00:31:11.279
know, that that you don't think you, um, no one has quite the same

593
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:15.779
moral responsibilities towards you as as they did before, you know

594
00:31:15.779 --> 00:31:17.819
your wishes and things.

595
00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:22.380
Your plans, your hopes all vanish from the earth at that point.

596
00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:26.099
And so turning her into this sort of data ghost that's just

597
00:31:26.099 --> 00:31:28.319
eventually just repeating nonsense.

598
00:31:28.380 --> 00:31:31.259
And, you know, Anita says the same thing about her grandfather who

599
00:31:31.259 --> 00:31:35.039
just ends up spending a day obsessing about his shoelaces.

600
00:31:35.099 --> 00:31:38.220
And that does happen to people's grandfathers.

601
00:31:38.279 --> 00:31:39.059
Do you know what I mean?

602
00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:41.099
Even now, even without that technology.

603
00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:42.599
That's what happens to us.

604
00:31:42.660 --> 00:31:46.559
And so Russell does that thing in cucumber episode 6 where he

605
00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:50.700
forces us to live through Lance's death from Lance's point of

606
00:31:50.700 --> 00:31:50.940
view.

607
00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:54.599
And again, I find that one of the most horrifically scary things

608
00:31:54.599 --> 00:31:56.339
that I've ever seen on television.

609
00:31:56.400 --> 00:31:58.440
And this I think is like that.

610
00:31:58.500 --> 00:32:00.359
I think it's incredible.

611
00:32:00.420 --> 00:32:02.940
And the fact that it's not just done for a cheap trick.

612
00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:04.799
It's how we solve the problem at the end.

613
00:32:04.859 --> 00:32:07.859
But it really is incredibly good.

614
00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:10.079
Can I offer a slightly different reading to that as well?

615
00:32:10.140 --> 00:32:13.619
It is concerned with death and Moffat is concerned with the

616
00:32:13.619 --> 00:32:15.420
experience of death and living.

617
00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:17.700
How about Alzheimer's power?

618
00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:18.960
Yeah, well, that's what I think.

619
00:32:19.019 --> 00:32:21.720
I think we had the, you know, the grandfather who, you know, became

620
00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:23.519
consumed with tying your shoe laces.

621
00:32:23.579 --> 00:32:27.900
Miss Evangelis's data ghosting is about the breakdown of her mind

622
00:32:27.900 --> 00:32:32.819
in sort of real time until she's left with nothing but repeating

623
00:32:32.819 --> 00:32:33.240
herself.

624
00:32:33.299 --> 00:32:37.799
Next episode, we'll have Donna consistently finding herself in new

625
00:32:37.799 --> 00:32:41.339
and unfamiliar circumstances and having to be reminded who people

626
00:32:41.339 --> 00:32:42.960
are and that kind of thing.

627
00:32:43.019 --> 00:32:47.819
And then there's River, uh, who's someone who, uh, she's got

628
00:32:47.819 --> 00:32:50.880
someone who she knows, but who doesn't know her and it's

629
00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:51.420
heartbreaking.

630
00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:02.160
Let's talk more about River and the doctor.

631
00:33:02.220 --> 00:33:06.000
I'll talk about River because, yeah, she's she's definitely Benny

632
00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:06.599
Summerfield.

633
00:33:06.660 --> 00:33:10.019
She's also a kind of she's also kind of souped up Romana as well

634
00:33:10.019 --> 00:33:10.319
too.

635
00:33:10.380 --> 00:33:12.240
And like Benny.

636
00:33:13.079 --> 00:33:19.079
And I think that, um, you know, we were talking about how Moffat

637
00:33:19.079 --> 00:33:21.059
approaches female characters.

638
00:33:21.119 --> 00:33:26.460
And Rivers, the River's another example of this enigmatic woman

639
00:33:26.460 --> 00:33:28.859
who's a puzzle that the doctor has to solve.

640
00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:32.039
And I find that a little bit wearing.

641
00:33:32.940 --> 00:33:36.720
I founded an advent calendar into Moffatt's ideal woman.

642
00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:38.880
And the handcuffs coming out.

643
00:33:38.940 --> 00:33:39.480
It's Stephen.

644
00:33:39.599 --> 00:33:44.279
I don't need to, I don't need to unpack this with you every time

645
00:33:44.279 --> 00:33:47.579
you write a woman that you actually find attractive.

646
00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:51.000
But I think that she's too, Alex Kingston's terrific in it.

647
00:33:51.059 --> 00:33:53.700
And I think she's really watchable and I think it's a great

648
00:33:53.700 --> 00:33:59.160
character, but it's more about how we keep seeing that repeat over

649
00:33:59.160 --> 00:34:03.779
and over again that you do wonder why why we're positioning the

650
00:34:03.779 --> 00:34:05.700
female characters in Doctor Who in that way.

651
00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:08.699
It is all of his major female characters, isn't it?

652
00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:09.300
It's Amy.

653
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:11.159
It's, you know, most obviously Clara.

654
00:34:11.219 --> 00:34:13.019
It's Julius Swar impressed game.

655
00:34:13.079 --> 00:34:16.260
Yeah, it's really Sparrow having to be kind of unpicked

656
00:34:16.260 --> 00:34:16.800
emotionally.

657
00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:20.280
But, I mean, he does it in coupling as well.

658
00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:27.119
And the idea is that the women are hypercompetent because the men

659
00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:28.920
are so useless.

660
00:34:28.920 --> 00:34:35.579
And River will take on the role of kind of deflating the doctor

661
00:34:35.579 --> 00:34:38.820
whenever he does something massively stupid, like shooting the

662
00:34:38.820 --> 00:34:40.380
fares and the Stetson and stuff.

663
00:34:40.500 --> 00:34:44.400
Like, you know, like, know that you're a stupid man, stop doing

664
00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:44.820
that.

665
00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:49.619
And she does it a bit here too, because she knows more than the

666
00:34:49.619 --> 00:34:54.119
doctor about their relationship, she's the one who is on the front

667
00:34:54.119 --> 00:34:58.920
foot, and the doctor is kind of clueless, and one of the things

668
00:34:58.920 --> 00:35:07.500
that both of Moffatt's doctors are, is thoughtless kind of man

669
00:35:07.500 --> 00:35:14.159
children, you know, like people who are oblivious to the effect

670
00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:16.440
that they have on other people. around them.

671
00:35:16.500 --> 00:35:21.000
Moffatt's very, very 1st sitcom is called Joking Apart.

672
00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:25.079
And it is partly autobiographical.

673
00:35:25.139 --> 00:35:27.000
It's about the breakup of his 1st marriage.

674
00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:32.099
And all the way through, we're told that the ex-wife character was

675
00:35:32.099 --> 00:35:37.019
responsible for the breakup because she had an affair, and he's

676
00:35:37.019 --> 00:35:41.280
aggrieved that he's been cheated on, until it really becomes clear

677
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:44.400
throughout that 1st series, and the 2nd series is absolutely

678
00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:46.260
embarrassing, and you shouldn't watch it at all.

679
00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:49.440
But the 1st series, it becomes clear that the reason that she left

680
00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:53.460
is that Moffat was an insufferable smart ass.

681
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:55.739
And both of his doctors are like that.

682
00:35:55.800 --> 00:35:58.440
And so he is...

683
00:35:58.440 --> 00:35:59.579
He has no one to blame but himself.

684
00:35:59.639 --> 00:36:02.159
No, but he's working through that.

685
00:36:02.219 --> 00:36:03.539
He's clearly acknowledging that.

686
00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:07.619
And so although he has a sort of rather essentialist way of

687
00:36:07.619 --> 00:36:12.420
presenting these sort of female characters, what he is examining

688
00:36:12.420 --> 00:36:17.579
just as much is what's wrong with masculinity, I think.

689
00:36:17.639 --> 00:36:20.699
I think there's another thing that this season is doing, which is

690
00:36:20.699 --> 00:36:23.940
constantly trying to wrongfoot the doctor, like throwing in new

691
00:36:23.940 --> 00:36:25.079
elements all the time.

692
00:36:25.139 --> 00:36:28.739
Give him a, give him a daughter, put him on a space bus full of

693
00:36:28.739 --> 00:36:29.880
psychopaths and see what happens.

694
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:34.920
And in its way, it's in a response to tenants kind of his own kind

695
00:36:34.920 --> 00:36:38.159
of uber competence, an uber competence, you know.

696
00:36:38.219 --> 00:36:40.199
So let's give him a wife and see what happens.

697
00:36:40.260 --> 00:36:46.019
Um, I think that River, here in this story, is there's a kind of

698
00:36:46.019 --> 00:36:48.420
reading this story, if you were, if you were really old school

699
00:36:48.420 --> 00:36:52.079
fanboy and didn't like the idea of the doctor having a wife, you

700
00:36:52.079 --> 00:36:54.599
could read this as River as a future companion.

701
00:36:54.659 --> 00:36:58.199
Like she does a range of sort of companion like activities.

702
00:36:58.260 --> 00:37:01.320
Whereas later as she develops, she becomes much more a sort of

703
00:37:01.320 --> 00:37:05.639
alternative doctor, she becomes much more kind of doing the, doing

704
00:37:05.639 --> 00:37:08.280
the sort of things the doctor would do only, only better.

705
00:37:08.340 --> 00:37:10.199
You know, she's sexier, she'll shoot a gun.

706
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:12.059
Please fly the TARDIS properly.

707
00:37:12.119 --> 00:37:12.659
Yeah, yeah.

708
00:37:12.719 --> 00:37:13.800
She doesn't put the handbrake on.

709
00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:18.000
So I think at the moment, there's this one thing of just trying to

710
00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:20.760
throw in an element, to twist the whole thing into a new and

711
00:37:20.760 --> 00:37:21.360
different way.

712
00:37:21.420 --> 00:37:24.300
It's also in a way playing a little safe, this episode with

713
00:37:24.300 --> 00:37:24.840
River.

714
00:37:24.900 --> 00:37:27.239
Maybe that's because it's a kind of gradual thing and you've got

715
00:37:27.239 --> 00:37:27.599
to start small.

716
00:37:27.719 --> 00:37:31.559
I think next week it is 100% certain that they are husband and

717
00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:31.920
wife.

718
00:37:31.980 --> 00:37:34.559
I think there's absolutely no doubt that and we'll talk about it

719
00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:35.039
next week.

720
00:37:35.099 --> 00:37:38.219
Yeah, I'll talk about next week when I think that becomes

721
00:37:38.219 --> 00:37:39.119
absolutely clear.

722
00:37:39.179 --> 00:37:42.780
But they are clearly in a romantic relationship.

723
00:37:42.840 --> 00:37:44.579
You know, very clearly.

724
00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:49.260
When Paul Cornell 1st wrote Human Nature, he said that one of the

725
00:37:49.260 --> 00:37:54.239
things that he missed, or one of the costs that that story imposed

726
00:37:54.239 --> 00:37:58.980
on the show was making the doctor heterosexual.

727
00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:05.099
And he was aware that the doctor's kind of lack of interest in

728
00:38:05.099 --> 00:38:09.539
women may have been responsible for the big kind of following that

729
00:38:09.539 --> 00:38:12.480
the program had, you know, among gay fans.

730
00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:14.760
I mean, there's a camp sensibility to the show and all of that

731
00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:15.360
sort of thing.

732
00:38:15.420 --> 00:38:20.280
But the fact that the doctor isn't a romantic leading man, um, it

733
00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:22.980
was a thing that appealed to us and that made him different from

734
00:38:22.980 --> 00:38:26.340
other heroes, uh, in other stories.

735
00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:30.119
But, you know, by series 4, that ship failed.

736
00:38:30.179 --> 00:38:33.780
You know, so there's nothing to lose, I think, by giving him a

737
00:38:33.780 --> 00:38:34.139
wife.

738
00:38:34.260 --> 00:38:41.159
And just as a weird thing last night, um, I watched the Husbands

739
00:38:41.159 --> 00:38:46.320
of River song last night because that's the end of that River song

740
00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:47.460
arc.

741
00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:52.800
And I think that the sort of marriage relationship that the 2 of

742
00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:55.500
them are depicted as having doesn't break the program at all.

743
00:38:55.559 --> 00:38:56.760
And that's one of the things.

744
00:38:56.820 --> 00:38:59.400
Another thing that Moffat will do is that he will do things that

745
00:38:59.400 --> 00:39:02.460
look like they're going to change the program enormously.

746
00:39:02.519 --> 00:39:05.880
There's another doctor, you know, the doctor, his death planet we

747
00:39:05.880 --> 00:39:07.619
know about, you know, all of these sort of stuff.

748
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:10.139
And in fact, it makes no difference.

749
00:39:10.199 --> 00:39:10.679
The show goes on.

750
00:39:10.739 --> 00:39:13.980
And we have had this relationship before with the 4th doctor and

751
00:39:13.980 --> 00:39:14.460
Romana.

752
00:39:14.519 --> 00:39:15.119
Yeah.

753
00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:18.659
They are husband and wife time lord in space with the dog and

754
00:39:18.659 --> 00:39:19.920
lately they get the kid.

755
00:39:20.579 --> 00:39:21.960
So true.

756
00:39:22.079 --> 00:39:23.699
And then it all goes to him.

757
00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:25.679
Such a disappointment.

758
00:39:25.739 --> 00:39:28.500
We've only been more perfect if David Tennant, Alex Kingston, had

759
00:39:28.500 --> 00:39:32.699
got married in real life. rather than marrying his own daughter.

760
00:39:32.760 --> 00:39:33.659
Let's not go there.

761
00:39:33.719 --> 00:39:34.440
It's too Trumpian.

762
00:39:34.500 --> 00:39:38.579
It would have been lovely if there'd been a doctor in river

763
00:39:38.579 --> 00:39:41.039
special the following year, if one of those four.

764
00:39:41.099 --> 00:39:43.800
We could have seen them, seen them normalised in that way.

765
00:39:43.860 --> 00:39:45.420
I'm hoping we get one with Jody.

766
00:39:45.480 --> 00:39:52.199
I wonder whether the whole arc is spoiled a little bit by the fact

767
00:39:52.199 --> 00:39:58.079
that this is the only time that that river meets David Tennant's

768
00:39:58.079 --> 00:39:58.500
doctor.

769
00:39:58.559 --> 00:40:01.320
Like, you know, the next time they meet in the crash of the

770
00:40:01.320 --> 00:40:02.760
Byzantium, it's someone else.

771
00:40:03.119 --> 00:40:07.500
But I kind of have this sort of thing where she doesn't really

772
00:40:07.500 --> 00:40:10.079
know what order the doctors come in and doesn't really care.

773
00:40:10.139 --> 00:40:11.340
That's my thing.

774
00:40:11.400 --> 00:40:15.420
And that beautiful thing where she's looking at him and going, you

775
00:40:15.420 --> 00:40:16.079
are so young.

776
00:40:16.079 --> 00:40:21.360
And he does, you know, I'm not, you know, and then she, he's wrong

777
00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:21.900
you know.

778
00:40:21.960 --> 00:40:25.139
But you see, I quite like the fact that you only get the one with

779
00:40:25.139 --> 00:40:25.860
David Ten.

780
00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:28.199
She looked at him saying you're so young because the bulk of her

781
00:40:28.199 --> 00:40:30.239
adventures with the doctor have been with the 11th.

782
00:40:30.300 --> 00:40:34.619
Matt Smith, but then she has one with the 12th, Peter Caboldi.

783
00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:37.139
Then she has David Tennant and she's looking at him and saying

784
00:40:37.139 --> 00:40:40.440
you're so young after she's just spent 24 years with the 12th

785
00:40:40.440 --> 00:40:40.679
doctor.

786
00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:41.460
Yeah.

787
00:40:41.460 --> 00:40:42.059
Yeah.

788
00:40:42.119 --> 00:40:43.139
Yeah.

789
00:40:43.199 --> 00:40:46.380
I also like the thing, but she can't remember what any of them

790
00:40:46.380 --> 00:40:49.380
look like until she actually turns up and sees them.

791
00:40:49.440 --> 00:40:53.340
She's the sort of fan who goes, was that a Matt Smith story?

792
00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:54.659
I can't remember the one that happened here.

793
00:40:54.719 --> 00:40:58.019
There's a great moment in Husbands of River song where she drops

794
00:40:58.019 --> 00:41:02.219
one of those card wallets with the sort of concertina cards and

795
00:41:02.219 --> 00:41:05.880
she has like publicity photos of all of the doctors in it.

796
00:41:05.880 --> 00:41:09.300
And she's sort of checking off Capoldi against it.

797
00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:10.139
No, he's not there.

798
00:41:10.199 --> 00:41:13.679
Wouldn't you have paid good money to see the special with the 6th

799
00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:15.119
doctor back with River Song?

800
00:41:15.179 --> 00:41:17.280
That would have worked. wonderfully.

801
00:41:17.340 --> 00:41:22.619
I want to see the CG version with Pat Trout and...

802
00:41:22.619 --> 00:41:23.519
Let's go back to Billy.

803
00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:26.039
Peter Cushing.

804
00:41:26.099 --> 00:41:27.900
Jolly good smacked bottom.

805
00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:40.679
We've talked a little bit about the sort of virtual reality aspect

806
00:41:40.679 --> 00:41:43.739
of the plot, but the one thing that we haven't talked about is the

807
00:41:43.739 --> 00:41:45.119
actual monsters.

808
00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:48.780
Well, we're back to Moffat.

809
00:41:48.840 --> 00:41:50.579
Aren't we playing with his psych tropes?

810
00:41:50.579 --> 00:41:53.760
Because the monsters are our shadows and most of this story is

811
00:41:53.760 --> 00:41:56.340
about owning our shadows and what happens when we don't.

812
00:41:56.460 --> 00:42:00.300
And then there's a lovely bit of environmental truth thrown on, but

813
00:42:00.300 --> 00:42:01.139
that's for late.

814
00:42:01.199 --> 00:42:02.639
Not for here.

815
00:42:02.699 --> 00:42:07.739
I also think it is his thing where, you know, he thinks that the

816
00:42:07.739 --> 00:42:12.900
real place, the Doctor Who takes place is under your bed and here

817
00:42:12.900 --> 00:42:17.639
he makes something very, very common, very terrifying.

818
00:42:18.659 --> 00:42:20.880
I think they're terrific.

819
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:24.119
And I think it's really brought home in the shots with the chicken

820
00:42:24.119 --> 00:42:27.480
leg that they throw into the, it's all done through editing, I

821
00:42:27.480 --> 00:42:27.780
imagine.

822
00:42:27.840 --> 00:42:29.460
It's really, really effective.

823
00:42:29.519 --> 00:42:31.320
You instantly know what the threat is.

824
00:42:31.380 --> 00:42:34.739
And he's been holding off telling you for about 30 minutes in that

825
00:42:34.739 --> 00:42:35.099
story.

826
00:42:35.159 --> 00:42:37.500
So it's about time he kind of demonstrated what it was.

827
00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:40.139
He knows how begrudging other Dave is in handing over his chicken

828
00:42:40.139 --> 00:42:40.980
leg, by the way.

829
00:42:41.039 --> 00:42:43.260
He's really annoyed that he's not going to have that chicken leg

830
00:42:43.260 --> 00:42:45.239
for lunch.

831
00:42:45.300 --> 00:42:46.380
Hell yeah, yeah.

832
00:42:46.380 --> 00:42:48.420
So they come in 2 forms, these monsters.

833
00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:51.300
They come in the shadows and they come in the skeleton spacesuit

834
00:42:51.300 --> 00:42:51.659
things.

835
00:42:51.719 --> 00:42:57.119
And the skeletons in the spacesuits, they're a terrific image.

836
00:42:57.179 --> 00:42:58.199
They look fantastic.

837
00:42:58.260 --> 00:43:01.679
And yet there's something kind of contrived about them because it

838
00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:05.340
means that the crew have to keep putting their helmets back on and

839
00:43:05.340 --> 00:43:08.699
keep finding reasons to put their helmets back on and dimming

840
00:43:08.699 --> 00:43:08.940
them.

841
00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:11.699
So there's you know, there's a bit of hand waving about, well

842
00:43:11.699 --> 00:43:14.159
maybe it'll make it harder for them to digest you.

843
00:43:14.219 --> 00:43:18.420
But so it's a little bit, I find, and also once they're in the

844
00:43:18.420 --> 00:43:19.260
spacesuits.

845
00:43:19.320 --> 00:43:21.840
I'm not sure what they can actually do to you.

846
00:43:21.900 --> 00:43:25.019
Like at one stage, one of them pushes hard down on David Tennant's

847
00:43:25.019 --> 00:43:25.440
shoulders.

848
00:43:25.500 --> 00:43:29.519
But it's not like we ever see anyone come to their end at the

849
00:43:29.519 --> 00:43:31.260
hands of the bastionarata in that.

850
00:43:31.320 --> 00:43:33.599
Yeah, why are they running in terror from them in that form?

851
00:43:33.659 --> 00:43:34.559
Yeah, that's right.

852
00:43:34.619 --> 00:43:36.780
But very slowly running from them in that form.

853
00:43:37.139 --> 00:43:41.219
Aren't there scenes where the spacesuit is standing there and

854
00:43:41.219 --> 00:43:43.739
these shadows are emanating out of it?

855
00:43:43.800 --> 00:43:45.960
Yeah, so we could have just had the shadows.

856
00:43:46.019 --> 00:43:48.420
We don't actually need the spacesuits for that bit.

857
00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:52.920
But it feels so it feels so churlish to even say that because

858
00:43:52.920 --> 00:43:54.539
they're such great monsters.

859
00:43:54.599 --> 00:43:57.300
They look fantastic and they're terrific, but they are a little

860
00:43:57.300 --> 00:43:58.980
bit of window dressing, I think.

861
00:43:59.039 --> 00:44:03.239
Do you think that they are a little bit kind of playing on the

862
00:44:03.239 --> 00:44:05.820
ambassadors of death iconography as well.

863
00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:09.659
They are terrifyingly space suited things without even the gimmick

864
00:44:09.659 --> 00:44:12.780
of a skeleton. all they have to do is touch you.

865
00:44:12.840 --> 00:44:16.199
I think they're amazingly effective and they have to be kind of

866
00:44:16.199 --> 00:44:20.400
high up on Moffatt's list of memories of Doctor Who.

867
00:44:20.519 --> 00:44:22.500
Well, he'll return to this as well, won't he?

868
00:44:22.559 --> 00:44:26.039
The Impossible Astronaut and Day of the Moon, where he again uses

869
00:44:26.039 --> 00:44:29.880
it as a thing of otherness. something in a spacesuit, be it a

870
00:44:29.880 --> 00:44:31.619
little girl, or be it something rising from a leak.

871
00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:33.420
It goes back a long way.

872
00:44:33.480 --> 00:44:38.039
We have men in diving suits in 30s and 40s universal things.

873
00:44:38.099 --> 00:44:40.619
We have, gosh, what else?

874
00:44:40.679 --> 00:44:44.639
All of the SF tropes, tropes, tropes, tropes of...

875
00:44:44.699 --> 00:44:45.599
Well, there's the mask.

876
00:44:45.659 --> 00:44:51.059
There's the horror behind the mask and the notion that the full

877
00:44:51.059 --> 00:44:54.539
skin hides who we are both ways.

878
00:44:54.599 --> 00:44:58.260
We can hide it from ourselves inside it and others cannot see who

879
00:44:58.260 --> 00:44:58.980
we are.

880
00:44:59.039 --> 00:45:02.460
I think it's lucky, though, the Bastianarada have a particular...

881
00:45:02.519 --> 00:45:06.119
They have a particular preference for supporting characters.

882
00:45:06.179 --> 00:45:08.219
Yeah, that's that's that.

883
00:45:08.219 --> 00:45:10.619
That was kind of, that's the usual thing of backing off when they

884
00:45:10.619 --> 00:45:11.280
know he's name.

885
00:45:11.340 --> 00:45:12.119
Just eat him.

886
00:45:12.179 --> 00:45:12.719
He's right there.

887
00:45:12.780 --> 00:45:16.260
I think you'll find that all Doctor Who monsters have that

888
00:45:16.260 --> 00:45:17.639
particular predilection.

889
00:45:17.699 --> 00:45:19.679
But fair enough, in a universe reason for that, because the

890
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:23.219
regulars are smart enough to keep away from them and stay out of

891
00:45:23.219 --> 00:45:24.719
the shadows and do as the doctor says.

892
00:45:24.840 --> 00:45:27.719
If I was one of the crew, though, I'd keep my helmet off at all

893
00:45:27.719 --> 00:45:28.019
times.

894
00:45:28.019 --> 00:45:30.539
I'd say this is clearly the way to not get it.

895
00:45:30.599 --> 00:45:31.860
Just leave my helmet off.

896
00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:32.280
Thanks very much.

897
00:45:32.340 --> 00:45:34.440
Does this go to a death comes to time?

898
00:45:34.500 --> 00:45:37.980
I'm sorry, I had to raise it at some and the bloody shenanigans of

899
00:45:37.980 --> 00:45:40.980
this lovely podcast, but is there something about the knowledge of

900
00:45:40.980 --> 00:45:43.679
the word or the truth of the word, which is quite cabalistic?

901
00:45:43.739 --> 00:45:46.440
And we go back to writers like Jorge Louis Borkes, which is, you

902
00:45:46.440 --> 00:45:48.599
know, the world is actually built on words.

903
00:45:48.659 --> 00:45:51.960
It's an okay thing to bring up since this is a story about words.

904
00:45:52.019 --> 00:45:57.539
Well, there is that big library, you know, like that's clearly

905
00:45:57.539 --> 00:46:00.420
where that comes from, a library that's the size of the world

906
00:46:00.420 --> 00:46:01.860
that's absolutely vast.

907
00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:04.320
If you want power over the doctor.

908
00:46:04.380 --> 00:46:05.940
You need only speak one word.

909
00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:12.659
If you want to raise the golem from a mountainous effigy of clay

910
00:46:12.659 --> 00:46:14.760
to wreak havoc against your oppressors.

911
00:46:14.820 --> 00:46:18.360
You write this secret cabalistic name of God on a bit of paper and

912
00:46:18.360 --> 00:46:19.260
pop it in its mouth.

913
00:46:19.320 --> 00:46:20.639
I'm talking about the goal.

914
00:46:20.699 --> 00:46:25.440
I'm not, not, um, in a suit.

915
00:46:25.500 --> 00:46:29.460
We go back to Shakespeare code and the power of words in Doctor

916
00:46:29.460 --> 00:46:30.119
Who universe.

917
00:46:30.179 --> 00:46:33.780
They, you know, words are responsible for creating worlds.

918
00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:37.860
And in the doctor universe, it's words and mathematics, they are

919
00:46:37.860 --> 00:46:38.760
the universe, aren't they?

920
00:46:38.820 --> 00:46:39.599
They're the building blocks.

921
00:46:39.659 --> 00:46:42.239
Well, the higher the higher thinkers amongst us, you know, the

922
00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:44.820
folk that are actually working down at the synchrotron, like our

923
00:46:44.820 --> 00:46:47.159
friend Jason, a fan of the podcast.

924
00:46:47.219 --> 00:46:50.880
Hello, will say the same thing, that mathematics are the building

925
00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:53.699
blocks of the universe, and words are simply symbols of the same

926
00:46:53.699 --> 00:46:53.940
thing.

927
00:46:54.119 --> 00:46:57.480
Oh, it gets deep on this, doesn't it, Johnny?

928
00:46:57.539 --> 00:47:01.199
I just wanted to talk about, you know, little things eating

929
00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:01.679
people.

930
00:47:01.739 --> 00:47:03.119
Swarms of things.

931
00:47:03.179 --> 00:47:04.260
You've got dogs.

932
00:47:04.679 --> 00:47:08.760
It is that sort of perfect thing where it is designed to scare the

933
00:47:08.760 --> 00:47:10.079
hell out of small children.

934
00:47:10.079 --> 00:47:11.579
It does it well, doesn't it?

935
00:47:11.639 --> 00:47:15.480
And it creates a playground game where you're all standing around

936
00:47:15.480 --> 00:47:18.239
in the playground, not trying to cross one another's shadows, not

937
00:47:18.239 --> 00:47:19.380
letting the shadows touch.

938
00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:21.480
You know, your shadow is infected with this thing.

939
00:47:21.480 --> 00:47:22.559
All of that is perfect.

940
00:47:22.619 --> 00:47:23.699
Doesn't Moffat?

941
00:47:23.820 --> 00:47:26.699
Well, actually, I think writers that worked with Mothat in late

942
00:47:26.699 --> 00:47:30.059
season said his starting point was always, what's the playground

943
00:47:30.059 --> 00:47:30.420
game?

944
00:47:30.480 --> 00:47:31.500
Yeah, right.

945
00:47:31.559 --> 00:47:31.920
Right.

946
00:47:31.980 --> 00:47:33.780
Well, this absolutely has it.

947
00:47:33.840 --> 00:47:37.019
And those shadows things, there's that one fabulous moment.

948
00:47:37.079 --> 00:47:42.119
One thing that Moffat does is there'll be something in plain sight

949
00:47:42.119 --> 00:47:47.099
and then you'll realise that its presence is terrifying.

950
00:47:47.159 --> 00:47:51.059
And so there's one of them next week, just a brief one.

951
00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:55.559
But this week, it's, you know, they're in the room in the library

952
00:47:55.559 --> 00:48:00.480
which has a hole in the roof or a sort of cupola made of glass or

953
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:05.039
something, and there's a giant shadow on the floor, and then the

954
00:48:05.039 --> 00:48:07.860
doctor suddenly says, but what's casting it?

955
00:48:07.920 --> 00:48:12.300
You know, like he just takes ordinary things like shadows or motes

956
00:48:12.300 --> 00:48:15.960
of dust in a sunbeam and turns them in.

957
00:48:16.019 --> 00:48:16.800
Isn't it great?

958
00:48:16.860 --> 00:48:17.519
Superb.

959
00:48:17.579 --> 00:48:19.559
And just saying they're everywhere.

960
00:48:19.619 --> 00:48:20.699
We have them on earth.

961
00:48:20.760 --> 00:48:23.880
You know, you could be eaten by the vastinarada.

962
00:48:23.940 --> 00:48:28.679
And it's not quite as on the nose as the sort of fabulous montage

963
00:48:28.679 --> 00:48:31.679
of various sort of statues and stuff about the place at the end of

964
00:48:31.679 --> 00:48:32.159
Blink.

965
00:48:32.219 --> 00:48:35.940
But I think for a kid, it's even more terrifying.

966
00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:40.079
I think these monsters are among the best that Doctor Who's ever

967
00:48:40.079 --> 00:48:41.400
done just conceptually.

968
00:48:41.460 --> 00:48:45.480
Am I misremembering that in that very 1st wide shot where they

969
00:48:45.480 --> 00:48:50.219
come back into the library and the TARDIS is there that you are

970
00:48:50.219 --> 00:48:51.300
seeing the dust in the line?

971
00:48:51.360 --> 00:48:52.019
Yeah, yeah.

972
00:48:52.079 --> 00:48:53.940
Can we talk about the production too?

973
00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:55.380
because the locations.

974
00:48:55.440 --> 00:48:59.460
We slammed the doctor's daughter 2 weeks ago.

975
00:48:59.519 --> 00:49:02.639
Like we slammed that for the poor quality of the production, but

976
00:49:02.639 --> 00:49:05.820
here the locations are absolutely incredible.

977
00:49:05.880 --> 00:49:09.239
The CGI city looks great.

978
00:49:09.420 --> 00:49:13.440
Murray Gold is just killing it this week.

979
00:49:13.500 --> 00:49:16.079
Yeah, he does a, he does a great job.

980
00:49:16.139 --> 00:49:19.500
And I think it's on the, it's on the death of one of the Dave's.

981
00:49:19.559 --> 00:49:23.280
I'm sure there's a bit of space adventure in that music.

982
00:49:23.340 --> 00:49:27.239
I'm sure if you hear it, you can go to dum, dum, dum, dum.

983
00:49:27.239 --> 00:49:27.719
I think, yeah.

984
00:49:27.719 --> 00:49:32.039
It is a beaut. it does look beautiful this episode and I think

985
00:49:32.039 --> 00:49:34.619
everyone's really playing at the top of their game for this one.

986
00:49:34.679 --> 00:49:38.340
Didn't Mothat miss a trick for the 50th anniversary bring him back

987
00:49:38.340 --> 00:49:39.300
the day of the doctor?

988
00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:41.519
No, all right.

989
00:49:41.579 --> 00:49:43.920
Eros Lynn does a wonderful job.

990
00:49:43.980 --> 00:49:45.539
He's a terrific director.

991
00:49:45.599 --> 00:49:46.860
It's absolutely terrific.

992
00:49:46.920 --> 00:49:49.559
And he understands what goes on the screen.

993
00:49:49.619 --> 00:49:56.639
He understands the power of of large images to which he lingers on

994
00:49:56.639 --> 00:50:00.420
like those shots in the library to create the atmosphere of the

995
00:50:00.420 --> 00:50:00.599
story.

996
00:50:00.659 --> 00:50:04.079
I think he's also a flourishy kind of director too.

997
00:50:04.139 --> 00:50:07.079
You know, so he'll he'll do kind of tilted angles.

998
00:50:07.139 --> 00:50:09.360
There's lots of colour in his shots all the time.

999
00:50:09.420 --> 00:50:12.179
It's not, he's not an understated kind of director.

1000
00:50:12.179 --> 00:50:14.159
And yet he's great at pace.

1001
00:50:14.219 --> 00:50:15.119
He's great at action.

1002
00:50:15.179 --> 00:50:17.280
He's really, I think, kind of one of the unsung.

1003
00:50:17.340 --> 00:50:19.679
Heroes of the 1st 4 years of the program.

1004
00:50:19.739 --> 00:50:22.980
Like he's, does he do more episodes than anyone else?

1005
00:50:23.039 --> 00:50:23.639
I don't know.

1006
00:50:23.699 --> 00:50:26.639
It doesn't, but actually, if you look at his progress, he starts

1007
00:50:26.639 --> 00:50:29.280
off just doing everyday episodes, and then as he goes on

1008
00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:32.519
throughout Russell's era, he starts to do the big episodes, so he

1009
00:50:32.519 --> 00:50:36.119
does Christmas, they does big 2 parter, and then he ends up doing

1010
00:50:36.119 --> 00:50:37.679
David Tennant's swan song.

1011
00:50:37.739 --> 00:50:39.539
So he comes back for all of the important beats.

1012
00:50:39.659 --> 00:50:43.139
And let's not forget that after that terrible 1st the experience

1013
00:50:43.139 --> 00:50:46.920
of the 1st production block in Christopher Eccleston's year, he

1014
00:50:46.920 --> 00:50:50.039
came on board for episode 2 and 3 and he righted the ship.

1015
00:50:50.099 --> 00:50:51.840
He made everything rise.

1016
00:50:56.400 --> 00:51:00.780
So we get so few cliffhangers these days, and so they can't merely

1017
00:51:00.780 --> 00:51:04.320
be, you know, someone walking in saying kill him or anything like

1018
00:51:04.320 --> 00:51:04.559
that.

1019
00:51:04.679 --> 00:51:09.599
This one, I just think, is an incredible whole series of events.

1020
00:51:09.659 --> 00:51:11.400
He was the doctor all the time.

1021
00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:16.380
You know, we've got we've got Donna screaming in the TARDIS and

1022
00:51:16.380 --> 00:51:16.800
disappearing.

1023
00:51:16.860 --> 00:51:19.019
One of the best screams in New Hood.

1024
00:51:19.079 --> 00:51:19.320
Yeah.

1025
00:51:19.320 --> 00:51:20.760
Chilling.

1026
00:51:20.820 --> 00:51:23.099
Yeah, yeah. we don't know what's happening.

1027
00:51:23.159 --> 00:51:24.900
We literally have no idea what's happening.

1028
00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:28.380
And a clever choice of visual effect. to make it look like she's

1029
00:51:28.380 --> 00:51:29.159
being dissolved.

1030
00:51:29.280 --> 00:51:31.980
So you might think the Bastinarata have her.

1031
00:51:32.039 --> 00:51:34.500
Like she hasn't, she doesn't just teleport away.

1032
00:51:34.559 --> 00:51:37.920
She kind of gets eaten away by that visual effect and it's a nice

1033
00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:38.880
sleight of hand, I think.

1034
00:51:38.940 --> 00:51:42.179
And then I think in retrospect, it looks like a TV image, kind of

1035
00:51:42.179 --> 00:51:44.820
kind of flickering out a little bit.

1036
00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:48.539
So there's something computer-y about it, which, you know, is what

1037
00:51:48.539 --> 00:51:48.960
happens.

1038
00:51:49.019 --> 00:51:54.300
And we get Dr. Moon speech about the real world not being real.

1039
00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:57.960
We get, you know, proper Dave menacing them.

1040
00:51:58.019 --> 00:52:02.699
And then we get Donna and Donna on the node, like on that statue

1041
00:52:02.699 --> 00:52:03.119
thing.

1042
00:52:03.599 --> 00:52:06.840
And again, you know how we're talking about death before?

1043
00:52:06.900 --> 00:52:11.760
You know, like, there's a bank of dead flesh that produces those.

1044
00:52:11.820 --> 00:52:14.760
So the fact that she appears on that thing means that she's dead

1045
00:52:14.760 --> 00:52:16.380
you know, as far as we're concerned.

1046
00:52:16.619 --> 00:52:22.260
And then just that one moment just before the closing credits go

1047
00:52:22.260 --> 00:52:23.340
in where she blinks.

1048
00:52:23.400 --> 00:52:26.519
Like, check it out, the next time, at the very end, she delivers

1049
00:52:26.519 --> 00:52:30.360
her Dona Noble has been saved line and then just blinks very

1050
00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:30.659
slowly.

1051
00:52:30.780 --> 00:52:34.019
There's a pause that's not there in any other kind of shot of her

1052
00:52:34.019 --> 00:52:34.559
saying that.

1053
00:52:35.519 --> 00:52:39.599
Yeah, I will say that, you know, because I sort of came to this

1054
00:52:39.599 --> 00:52:42.659
pre-spoiled in a way by the 1st few minutes of it, which is very

1055
00:52:42.659 --> 00:52:44.400
apt, I suppose, in a spoiler-ish.

1056
00:52:44.460 --> 00:52:46.079
It's constantly warning about spoilers.

1057
00:52:46.139 --> 00:52:49.920
Her lines towards the end of that episode are Donna Noble has been

1058
00:52:49.920 --> 00:52:50.159
saved.

1059
00:52:50.219 --> 00:52:52.800
Donna Noble was going, okay, I'm going, yeah, I know.

1060
00:52:52.860 --> 00:52:55.019
I know you keep telling me this and I know it already.

1061
00:52:55.139 --> 00:52:58.980
So it is kind of, but it is where I agree about the cliffhanger is

1062
00:52:58.980 --> 00:53:03.059
that the sequence of events leading up to it is masterful.

1063
00:53:03.119 --> 00:53:05.760
Like it is absolutely played with the right beats at the right

1064
00:53:05.760 --> 00:53:05.940
time.

1065
00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:09.840
Yeah, you don't have that many cliffhangers, and, you know, that

1066
00:53:09.840 --> 00:53:13.739
very, very 1st cliffhanger, the new series of Doctor Who over does

1067
00:53:13.739 --> 00:53:18.420
which is just everyone in every plot subplot gets attacked by

1068
00:53:18.420 --> 00:53:19.679
Slovene all at once.

1069
00:53:19.739 --> 00:53:22.739
I mean, that's great, and it does mean that we've got more people

1070
00:53:22.739 --> 00:53:25.679
in peril than we might have had otherwise.

1071
00:53:25.739 --> 00:53:29.400
And Jackie in peril, obviously, which makes it sort of extra

1072
00:53:29.400 --> 00:53:30.420
effective.

1073
00:53:30.480 --> 00:53:31.380
Not too many shots.

1074
00:53:31.440 --> 00:53:34.739
Yeah, I haven't worked out how to build to a climax in a

1075
00:53:34.739 --> 00:53:35.219
cliffhanger.

1076
00:53:35.280 --> 00:53:36.420
But here there's different things.

1077
00:53:36.539 --> 00:53:41.820
There's peril, there's Donna's dead, perhaps, there's a complete

1078
00:53:41.820 --> 00:53:46.380
kind of upending of the relationship between the framing story and

1079
00:53:46.380 --> 00:53:49.500
the main story or whatever.

1080
00:53:49.559 --> 00:53:51.119
You know, all of that stuff is happening.

1081
00:53:51.179 --> 00:53:56.039
It's conceptual, it's proper terror, and it's, you know, um, a

1082
00:53:56.039 --> 00:53:57.480
Moffat catchfrases.

1083
00:53:57.539 --> 00:53:59.880
In fact, duelling Moffat catchphrases, in fact.

1084
00:53:59.940 --> 00:54:02.460
I think another part of it that works.

1085
00:54:02.519 --> 00:54:05.280
And if you're a young child, I think this is effective is the

1086
00:54:05.280 --> 00:54:07.260
doctor is absolutely helpless at the moment.

1087
00:54:07.320 --> 00:54:10.619
He's standing on a pile of books trying to make the lights work.

1088
00:54:10.679 --> 00:54:12.780
You know, like he has no answer.

1089
00:54:12.780 --> 00:54:14.940
And the thing is coming towards them.

1090
00:54:15.059 --> 00:54:19.260
And, and, as we'll see next week, he still doesn't have an

1091
00:54:19.260 --> 00:54:19.559
answer.

1092
00:54:19.619 --> 00:54:23.099
So it is kind of, um, I think that would be frightening if you

1093
00:54:23.099 --> 00:54:26.400
were a child watching it and your, your confidence in this doctor

1094
00:54:26.400 --> 00:54:27.960
may have been shaken over this episode.

1095
00:54:56.519 --> 00:55:00.300
Well, they listen to that skeleton in the spacesuit isn't going to

1096
00:55:00.300 --> 00:55:03.420
flee itself, so we're all gonna leg it down this corridor in

1097
00:55:03.420 --> 00:55:05.880
search of somewhere with some nice, safe fluorescent lighting.

1098
00:55:06.059 --> 00:55:10.139
We'll be back next week, we hope, for Forest of the Dead.

1099
00:55:10.199 --> 00:55:13.739
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1100
00:55:13.739 --> 00:55:16.679
and you can keep up with us at Flight 3 Entirety on Facebook, at

1101
00:55:16.679 --> 00:55:21.119
FTE podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety

1102
00:55:19.559 --> 00:55:24.239
com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger and

1103
00:55:24.239 --> 00:55:25.500
Jody into Terror.

1104
00:55:25.559 --> 00:55:27.539
Where can people find you, Johnny?

1105
00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:30.719
You can find me on Twitter at Johnny Spandrel, and you can read my

1106
00:55:30.719 --> 00:55:32.400
blog at Randomhooness.com.

1107
00:55:32.460 --> 00:55:35.639
You can also find him in the Castlands office on Gallifrey.

1108
00:55:35.820 --> 00:55:37.440
Snort.

1109
00:55:38.099 --> 00:55:39.719
All right.

1110
00:55:39.780 --> 00:55:44.159
Until next time, remember, if you want to live, for God's sake

1111
00:55:44.159 --> 00:55:45.239
count the shadows.

1112
00:55:45.300 --> 00:55:46.800
Message ends.

1113
00:55:46.860 --> 00:55:49.079
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1114
00:55:49.139 --> 00:55:49.980
Good night.

1115
00:55:50.039 --> 00:55:50.639
Good night.

1116
00:55:50.760 --> 00:55:54.300
You can probably find me on a park bench somewhere, you know, just

1117
00:55:54.300 --> 00:55:56.340
you know, send me a text.

1118
00:55:59.400 --> 00:56:02.159
That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottonley, Peter

1119
00:56:02.159 --> 00:56:04.320
Griffiths, Johnny Spandrel, and Richard Stone.

1120
00:56:04.380 --> 00:56:07.260
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings Performance by Jane

1121
00:56:07.260 --> 00:56:08.099
Orberg.

1122
00:56:08.159 --> 00:56:11.099
This episode, no one to blame but himself, was recorded on the

1123
00:56:11.099 --> 00:56:14.280
23rd of February 2020 and released on the 3rd of May.

1124
00:56:17.340 --> 00:56:20.400
Here at FDE publications were about to release a series of

1125
00:56:20.400 --> 00:56:24.360
novelisations of some of our earlier episodes, including FDE and

1126
00:56:24.360 --> 00:56:28.619
the giant cake, FDE and the 8 hour recording session, and FDE, and

1127
00:56:28.619 --> 00:56:31.139
why the hell won't Nathan shut up about the massacre.

1128
00:56:32.039 --> 00:56:36.420
Again, I'm just coming back to this is not a story about science

1129
00:56:36.420 --> 00:56:37.559
fiction or Doctor Who.

1130
00:56:37.619 --> 00:56:39.900
It's about interpersonal relationships and actually our

1131
00:56:39.900 --> 00:56:43.500
relationship with the outside world as individual fans and our

1132
00:56:43.500 --> 00:56:44.820
vulnerability in that world.

1133
00:56:44.880 --> 00:56:50.340
But I do think that in spite of that, it actually functions on the

1134
00:56:50.340 --> 00:56:54.179
level of just a science fiction adventure story incredibly well.

1135
00:56:54.239 --> 00:56:55.739
Really superb.

1136
00:56:55.800 --> 00:56:59.099
I know we get kind of do say that a lot.

1137
00:56:59.159 --> 00:57:01.860
Maybe it's just this era, but I'm really, that's why we love this

1138
00:57:01.860 --> 00:57:03.480
show because it is often superb.

1139
00:57:03.539 --> 00:57:06.659
No, just, you know, since I'm sitting with Peter, but I haven't

1140
00:57:06.659 --> 00:57:09.659
enjoyed a story so much since Dalek's in Manhattan.

1141
00:57:10.619 --> 00:57:12.239
Another classic.

1142
00:57:12.360 --> 00:57:15.480
After Santar and 2 parts, didn't that look better in retrospect?

1143
00:57:15.599 --> 00:57:18.360
But it was funny, we were all, I don't know if you heard that

1144
00:57:18.360 --> 00:57:18.599
Johnny.

1145
00:57:18.659 --> 00:57:21.300
We were all sitting around last year doing our Daleks in Manhattan

1146
00:57:21.300 --> 00:57:21.900
retrospective.

1147
00:57:21.960 --> 00:57:24.780
No one looked at me, was you can't, because again, for radio, faces

1148
00:57:24.780 --> 00:57:27.780
for radio, everyone looked at me like, I dropped the chine, I said

1149
00:57:27.780 --> 00:57:28.559
I love this one.

1150
00:57:28.679 --> 00:57:30.119
No, I'm with you.

1151
00:57:30.179 --> 00:57:31.920
I'm with you on Daleks in Manhattan.

1152
00:57:31.980 --> 00:57:33.780
It's actually, yeah, it's...

1153
00:57:33.780 --> 00:57:34.739
But I love New York at that time.

1154
00:57:34.800 --> 00:57:35.219
So, yeah.

1155
00:57:35.280 --> 00:57:37.619
But again, there's that sense of people coming together and

1156
00:57:37.619 --> 00:57:41.699
solving things in that great, you know, pit pip, Dunkirk, you know

1157
00:57:41.699 --> 00:57:44.280
never, isn't it a shame we haven't any toilet paper way of

1158
00:57:44.280 --> 00:57:46.139
approaching the world. will just manage.

1159
00:57:47.099 --> 00:57:49.531
I think it's lucky, though, that...