WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:38:55 1 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:45.719 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast, which carries a Fellman Lux coherency warning of 5011. 2 00:00:45.960 --> 00:00:47.700 On a good day. 3 00:00:47.759 --> 00:00:48.899 I'm Nathan. 4 00:00:48.960 --> 00:00:49.740 I'm Peter. 5 00:00:49.799 --> 00:00:50.700 I'm Johnny. 6 00:00:50.700 --> 00:00:54.899 And I'm a chatty disembodied donated park bench for this one. 7 00:00:54.960 --> 00:00:57.240 Have a seat and mind me splint. 8 00:00:58.320 --> 00:01:01.020 Well, it's the 51st century. 9 00:01:01.079 --> 00:01:06.239 We've materialised in a library and we're staring into the face of the very future of Doctor Who. 10 00:01:06.299 --> 00:01:12.420 We are terrified, confused and obsessed with an analysis of the nature of our own impending deaths. 11 00:01:12.420 --> 00:01:15.599 Welcome to silence in the library. 12 00:01:41.159 --> 00:01:44.219 Is it our dance or just our retirement? 13 00:01:47.879 --> 00:01:57.480 I think we're going to spend a lot of time over the next few episodes talking about Moffat's favourite tropes, but we might save some of that conversation for next week. 14 00:01:57.540 --> 00:02:00.599 This is your 1st time on the podcast, Johnny. 15 00:02:00.659 --> 00:02:06.780 I was wondering if I could ask you how you have felt about series 4 so far. 16 00:02:06.840 --> 00:02:10.860 Um, I really like series four. 17 00:02:10.919 --> 00:02:14.159 I think it's probably the best of those 1st 4 series. 18 00:02:14.219 --> 00:02:18.900 And I think it's really helped by the pairing of the doctor and Donna. 19 00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:32.159 And I was saying to somebody else recently, but I think it's the 1st time since the reboot, but the series has really had 2 leads in that we've got 2 stars of kind of equal stature. 20 00:02:32.219 --> 00:02:43.919 We've got, they, the storylines are divided up better between them and also because Donna is such, she's almost a kind of anti-companion in lots of ways, kind of doesn't know how to act like a Doctor Who companion. 21 00:02:43.979 --> 00:02:48.120 She doesn't know how to run down a corridor, like she doesn't know what a Santarin is. 22 00:02:48.180 --> 00:02:53.280 She's kind of, and that reflects what Catherine Tate was doing in the program. 23 00:02:53.939 --> 00:02:58.740 So for the 1st time we really have something which feels balanced in the way. 24 00:02:58.800 --> 00:03:01.199 And in this two-party, you can see it happen again. 25 00:03:01.259 --> 00:03:03.539 One of them gets more prominence in one episode than the other. 26 00:03:03.599 --> 00:03:07.500 So it has such confidence this year of Doctor Who, I think. 27 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:10.740 She's the scabbard to the foil of tenant, isn't she? 28 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:14.819 And she's, and she's the mirror of tenant in, and I think the truth of tenant. 29 00:03:14.939 --> 00:03:22.919 I think Tenant was playing it truly, he'd be a lot more like Catherine Tate's performance, but again, we'll get to tropes and shtick later on. 30 00:03:22.979 --> 00:03:24.300 But I know who I'm favouring. 31 00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:26.580 I know who my eyes are watching on the screen when they're together. 32 00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:27.719 Yeah, yeah. 33 00:03:27.719 --> 00:03:29.639 They have some, they have that chemistry. 34 00:03:29.639 --> 00:03:38.939 And it's also, they just, it's sort of freed up a lot of it by not having to be a traditional doctor and companion, um, sort of relationship. 35 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:52.560 And on a practical level, I think, um, Donna, Catherine gets more B plots and, if not, an actual B plot, more kind of relevance to the thematic qualities of the stories than Rose or um, Martha ever did. 36 00:03:52.620 --> 00:04:03.000 For me, I think the big difference is that she is able to smack tenet down, and one of the most annoying things about tenet is how kind of bombastic he is. 37 00:04:03.060 --> 00:04:10.080 And one of um, Donna's roles is to constantly kind of puncture that balloon. 38 00:04:10.139 --> 00:04:14.699 You know, the Sonic Screwdriver doesn't do wood, you know? 39 00:04:14.759 --> 00:04:17.339 There's different lines in the whole series. 40 00:04:17.399 --> 00:04:17.759 Whoa. 41 00:04:18.420 --> 00:04:21.180 Like she's constantly mocking him. 42 00:04:21.240 --> 00:04:22.439 She's constantly bringing him down. 43 00:04:22.500 --> 00:04:41.399 There's that scene earlier on this season where it looks like on their 1st meeting, Martha and Donna are going to fight, and David Tennant is clearly excited about the prospect of being fought over, and they just refuse to do it, and Donna kind of sort of smacks him down and just, you know, that's not going to happen. 44 00:04:41.879 --> 00:04:45.720 Here I actually wonder whether Donna is... 45 00:04:45.720 --> 00:04:52.079 There's something about Donna's boredom and kind of impatience and stuff early on in this episode. 46 00:04:52.139 --> 00:04:58.199 So they arrive in the library and it's almost as if Donna isn't sort of interested in books. 47 00:04:58.259 --> 00:04:59.819 But it's what we were just saying. 48 00:04:59.879 --> 00:05:03.000 Johnny was just saying, it's the anti-doctor. 49 00:05:03.060 --> 00:05:04.560 She was not a reader as a child. 50 00:05:04.620 --> 00:05:07.439 She's the non-fan in our fan production. 51 00:05:07.500 --> 00:05:09.779 So she's the outsider within the library. 52 00:05:09.839 --> 00:05:12.660 You can really see any fan child watching this. 53 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:14.519 Oh my god, it's my head. 54 00:05:14.579 --> 00:05:16.199 It's my life. why I watch Doctor Who. 55 00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:17.819 She doesn't know who Terrence Dix is, does she? 56 00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:19.439 She really doesn't. 57 00:05:19.500 --> 00:05:21.360 I don't believe she even mourned Peter. 58 00:05:21.420 --> 00:05:22.439 I believe she did. 59 00:05:22.500 --> 00:05:28.620 And she also, she sort of immune to all of the doctor's shtick in a way that the other companions are not. 60 00:05:28.740 --> 00:05:31.800 Like that has no effect on her because she has her own shtick. 61 00:05:31.860 --> 00:05:39.300 And really, she's the 1st companion allowed to be funny and allowed to be charming in and of herself, not in combination with the doctor. 62 00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:49.680 So it's unsurprising that she's probably not excited by the idea of following him around while he kind of sings beautifully about books, you know, like that's probably of no interest. 63 00:05:49.740 --> 00:05:59.160 So does this mean that because the doctor, the most doctor-ish thing you can imagine, is to be excited about being in a library, Donna's function is to be a bit bored in the background and want to wander over to the little shop. 64 00:05:59.220 --> 00:06:08.699 I think too, though, she still manages to be as smart as the doctor, and she is right about the books. 65 00:06:08.759 --> 00:06:18.720 So when the doctor and her go up to the little computer terminal and discover that there's 2 human beings here, but a 1000000 other sort of living things. 66 00:06:18.779 --> 00:06:21.060 And she goes, it's not the books, is it? 67 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:24.779 And it will turn out next episode, you know, in a very real sense it is. 68 00:06:24.839 --> 00:06:29.459 I mean, the doctor will use that 1000000 number to describe the book's next episode. 69 00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:31.019 So she's right. 70 00:06:31.079 --> 00:06:48.240 You know, we've had those relationships in Doctor Who before, where if the doctor and Donna disagree about something, Donna is right and the doctor is wrong and that's an unusual dynamic, I guess we probably had it with a doctor in Romana. 71 00:06:48.300 --> 00:06:57.779 I think the Donna's, Donna's role is also to notice what the doctor can't because he's too busy fighting the monsters and doing the heavy plot stuff. 72 00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:01.500 So it's her who kind of notices Miss Evangelister. 73 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:12.300 It's her who's picking up on the weirdness of river song in this and so she plays a kind of, um, I will pick up on the important stuff which you're letting drop to the floor. 74 00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:33.660 The other thing about the Miss Evangelista thing is, of course, um, when Donna's character kind of gets rewritten to become a regular and where they kind of throw out some of her kind of more sort of abrasive personality, um, the big thing that they give her, which is present, I think, in Runaway Bride, is her compassion. 75 00:07:33.720 --> 00:07:40.980 Like the reason that she goes after Miss Evangelista is that everyone else is being mean to her, that they're leaving her out. 76 00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:46.259 And so Donna, you know, goes up and speaks to her. 77 00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:53.220 And then later when Miss Evangelista is ghosting, she refers to Donna as the kind woman. 78 00:07:53.279 --> 00:07:56.519 And Donna is almost embarrassed to say, she means me. 79 00:07:56.579 --> 00:08:01.920 And it's almost impossible to imagine anyone calling Donna from the runaway bride, the kind woman. 80 00:08:02.339 --> 00:08:05.220 I think it's a really good rewrite. 81 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:08.459 What they do for her character in series 4 is amazing. 82 00:08:08.519 --> 00:08:11.579 It's interesting that Moffat homes in on that. 83 00:08:11.639 --> 00:08:19.259 Because obviously we don't know what discussions happened between him and Russell and how much of this was explained. 84 00:08:19.319 --> 00:08:23.160 But we know that Moffatt's scripts were not, as a rule, rewritten by Russell. 85 00:08:23.220 --> 00:08:28.500 And so the fact that Stephen goes in on this, and that is really Donna's defining characteristic. 86 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:31.079 And these episodes is interesting that he picked up on that same thing. 87 00:08:31.740 --> 00:08:43.500 I also thought along the same lines, the fact that we have a little shop, which is just from New Earth, it's not a Moffat thing, it's not something that Russell has rewritten the episode to put in. 88 00:08:43.559 --> 00:08:49.320 I have a very strong feeling that Moffatt likes Russell's Doctor Who a lot. absolutely. 89 00:08:49.379 --> 00:08:50.220 Yeah. 90 00:08:50.279 --> 00:08:51.419 Like he's a big fan. 91 00:08:51.480 --> 00:08:59.100 And he continues to reference things from it in a really respectful way, even though he himself takes quite a different kind of approach. 92 00:08:59.159 --> 00:09:01.980 They can't fail to be a mutual respect there. 93 00:09:02.039 --> 00:09:05.519 They're both at the top of their game, and writers know quality in other writers. 94 00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:17.639 And respect difference because it's the joy of opening and of getting your sheath out and ripping open those little French novels and going all the way through them. 95 00:09:17.700 --> 00:09:18.960 Yes, those prochets. 96 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:24.899 Hidden in some depth of the library somewhere. the joys, the joy of it. 97 00:09:24.899 --> 00:09:26.220 Access by special code. 98 00:09:26.279 --> 00:09:27.480 Writing isn't ego. 99 00:09:27.480 --> 00:09:29.399 Talking about writing is all ego. 100 00:09:29.460 --> 00:09:32.220 Well, this is much like this podcast. 101 00:09:32.279 --> 00:09:36.600 But no, writing itself is egoless, all creativity is egoless. 102 00:09:36.659 --> 00:09:41.159 Your constructed self is somewhere up there in the cloud, just as your ideas are. 103 00:09:41.220 --> 00:09:46.980 I was talking about this to a friend yesterday who's big creative force in Australian theatre and saying the same thing. 104 00:09:47.039 --> 00:09:49.679 It's just, no, I've been doing it all my life and I don't know where it comes from. 105 00:09:49.799 --> 00:09:53.460 That's the humbleness of creativity. 106 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:54.360 It isn't you. 107 00:09:54.419 --> 00:09:58.320 So when you do get somebody's brilliant ideas that are not yours. 108 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:00.840 It's a joyous childlike celebration. 109 00:10:00.899 --> 00:10:02.340 And that's why I love this story. 110 00:10:02.399 --> 00:10:13.200 There's a lot of levels in this story, but the main thing is, for me, this is about the isolated fan and growing up as a person who perhaps doesn't connect well with everyone else. 111 00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:24.120 And there's lots of layers of this, as we'll get to further down in the or what section beyond bibliography. way at the back. 112 00:10:24.179 --> 00:10:26.220 Right at the bottom of our Dewey decimals. 113 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:32.340 There's a big sign out the window that says xenobiology that we see a shot of quite a lot. 114 00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:33.899 So way beyond there. 115 00:10:33.960 --> 00:10:42.000 I do think we missed a trick from not having Donna being able to employ her knowledge of the jury decimal system at some point in this. 116 00:10:42.059 --> 00:10:43.500 That was disappointing, wasn't it? 117 00:10:43.559 --> 00:10:43.919 Yes. 118 00:10:43.980 --> 00:11:01.200 Although it does link quite well with the previous story, which ends with a scene where the doctor shows Donner a book from the year 5 billion. and then the dialogue in this episode, after the cold open starts with the doctor saying books, you know, people never ever get sick of books. 119 00:11:01.259 --> 00:11:04.799 You know, there's hollow vids and was it fiction missed? 120 00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:09.360 Like all of these different things, but people come back down to books. 121 00:11:09.419 --> 00:11:18.840 And, you know, that speech, like everything in Moffat gets a callback, the fact that it's physical paper books, you know, becomes important next episode. 122 00:11:31.620 --> 00:11:49.559 Um, I've been long prejudiced against this story for a long time and sort of biased against it, um, because I, uh, these really rare thing happened to me watching it, which is as soon as they show that bit at the beginning, which says 4000 people saved. 123 00:11:49.620 --> 00:11:52.559 I kind of clicked and went, oh, right, they can save to a hard drive. 124 00:11:52.620 --> 00:11:56.340 And then I had to do, and I need to emphasise, this never happens with me. 125 00:11:56.399 --> 00:11:58.679 I absolutely hopeless at this. 126 00:11:58.740 --> 00:12:06.179 And so that terrible thing happens where you've clocked it early and you've got to wait for everyone to catch up everyone in the story to kind of catch up to it. 127 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:13.620 So I've never enjoyed this story as much as I've enjoyed Moffatt's other stories for the Russell T. Davies ear. 128 00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:45.000 And so from the script's point of view, it always seems a little obvious to me, and it always has, and that's probably not being very fair to the story as a whole, because now when I come back to it, it looks like a really sophisticated piece of writing, and it actually, it's one of those rare things where the script has got better with time, um, because we're all used to Doctor Who stories having continuity references in them, looking backwards at stories in the past, and watching in 2008. 129 00:12:45.179 --> 00:12:53.940 We didn't have that extra layer of meaning to bring to this, we watch to it now where we can see the future continuity references have played out really well. 130 00:12:54.000 --> 00:13:04.200 And so it actually becomes, and in particular, I think, for the part of River song, the waiver that's written, becomes so much richer now than watching it. back in the day. 131 00:13:04.259 --> 00:13:10.500 Yeah, you can hear the grinding of the literary teeth of Paul Cornell saying, that's my Benny. 132 00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:12.419 Yeah, that's right. 133 00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:13.559 Yeah, yeah. 134 00:13:13.620 --> 00:13:15.720 In fact, it has a real new adventures feel to it. 135 00:13:15.720 --> 00:13:16.860 Oh, yeah. 136 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:18.120 She came off it. 137 00:13:18.179 --> 00:13:18.899 Yeah. 138 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:21.000 Well, I suppose a good idea is a good idea, right? 139 00:13:21.059 --> 00:13:26.879 Like a time travelling archeologist who likes to drink and likes to do the things the doctor doesn't weren't necessarily doing something. 140 00:13:26.940 --> 00:13:28.080 Is someone else's idea? 141 00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:31.860 I can see the piano. 142 00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:38.820 I'd be really nervous So that's a review of the script. plagiarism. 143 00:13:39.299 --> 00:13:41.460 It's a characterisation. 144 00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:43.139 Yes, I mean, book, we talked about this before. 145 00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:44.279 It's actually Scooby-Doo. 146 00:13:44.700 --> 00:13:54.360 You know, there was there was that Scooby-Doo villain that was a skeleton in a spacesuit. going back in the day. 147 00:13:54.419 --> 00:14:04.259 But it's also, it also, because he does read. he does he does like his psychoanalytical texts, Mr. Moff, and you can see that because he's still trying to work out who he is. 148 00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:07.740 And he's still trying to work out, dare I say, his relationship with women people? 149 00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:08.700 Yeah. 150 00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:09.840 And that comes across. 151 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:19.620 And I think this is actually a really beautiful piece of writing because the protagonists, the vulnerable, the ones that lead the narratives, the ones that actually perceive what's going on are all women. 152 00:14:19.620 --> 00:14:21.600 And some of them are very, very young women. 153 00:14:21.659 --> 00:14:22.559 Some of them are children. 154 00:14:22.620 --> 00:14:32.940 And in fact, the child turns out to be the one that is the instigator of not, not, you know, jumping the shark till the 2nd episode. 155 00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:40.740 But even in this story, it's the person who is the character who was actually understanding and leading the narrative, is the is the observer. 156 00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:42.539 And it's one of the stories. 157 00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:50.100 I like Moffat stories, is that the doctor, even though he may be the Dale-Sex Mac, and, as you prefer to say, is it a machine? 158 00:14:50.100 --> 00:14:50.700 How do you say that? 159 00:14:50.759 --> 00:14:51.360 in Latin? 160 00:14:51.419 --> 00:14:52.620 Anyway. 161 00:14:53.039 --> 00:14:58.860 We aim to be true on this one. is that he works best for me when he's the narrator. 162 00:14:59.399 --> 00:15:01.080 And he is not even a facilitator. 163 00:15:01.139 --> 00:15:08.460 Others around him, show him how to be a better person, as Dawn is doing in this one, but he, so he's kind of really peripheral. 164 00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:13.620 He's just the sparkler on the side of the story, but it's the movements within. 165 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:14.879 It's the stories within the stories. 166 00:15:14.940 --> 00:15:21.659 I think this is probably the best defining metaphor for a Doctor Who story that's been in this new series run. 167 00:15:21.720 --> 00:15:34.799 Maybe we've had different ones that do it, you know, and but I think as directness and and it goes quite deeply into into feminine protagonists and how women are treated in narrative as well, but I'll talk about that next step. 168 00:15:34.919 --> 00:15:43.440 There's a lot to say about that in particular next episode where we have kind of long stretches of time where the little girl is watching Doctor Who on television. 169 00:15:43.500 --> 00:15:47.820 You know, I mean, it sort of starts here, but that's a big element next week. 170 00:15:47.940 --> 00:15:49.860 Well, not to give him too much kudos. 171 00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:54.240 Of course, wasn't it Alfred the pig did the same thing in Greenacres? 172 00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:58.259 Greekers is the place to beat. 173 00:15:59.220 --> 00:16:01.860 It's so much to unpick there. 174 00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:09.299 And I think it's interesting what you said, Johnny, about Moffat's tropes being maybe a little bit more obvious than usual. 175 00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:17.879 And I wonder if that's a function of us becoming used to them and looking for something in the script, looking for the keyword or something that's not going to be what you think it is. 176 00:16:17.940 --> 00:16:28.679 Or I wonder if there's just too many troops in this episode, because let's not forget that this story was broadcast less than 2 weeks after it was confirmed that Moffat was going to be the new showrunner. 177 00:16:28.740 --> 00:16:29.159 Yeah. 178 00:16:29.220 --> 00:16:32.039 And so people were looking at this through a prism of that. 179 00:16:32.100 --> 00:16:47.039 And I think, although I do really like this story, and I think there's great quality on display, and I think it's a great example of proper adult Doctor Who, um, I think it's almost like the greatest hits of Moffat before the fact. 180 00:16:47.100 --> 00:16:52.440 And so there's so many Moffatian sort of things in there. 181 00:16:52.500 --> 00:16:57.659 So all of his big ticket ideas, be afraid of the dark because the shadows will kill you. 182 00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:01.919 The data ghosting, people have been saved, but there's no survivors. 183 00:17:01.980 --> 00:17:03.120 There's trees in a library. 184 00:17:03.179 --> 00:17:07.619 All of those really big ticket ideas, which would be the big thing in any other episode. 185 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:09.900 He paused them in and packs them in. 186 00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:13.019 And actually it feels like it's a little bit wearing. 187 00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:14.759 Do you know, I don't feel like that. 188 00:17:14.819 --> 00:17:25.019 I get that idea, you know, that it's like a Bob Baker and Dave Martin thing where, you know, every 30 seconds we've got another new sort of idea completely unrelated to all of the others. 189 00:17:25.079 --> 00:17:27.900 I have Stephen Moffatt's libel suit. 190 00:17:27.960 --> 00:17:31.200 You're comparing him to Bob Baker and Dave Martin. hell see you in court. 191 00:17:31.259 --> 00:17:36.059 But he is obviously a much more skilled writer than them. 192 00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:41.880 And so I don't feel that the script is overstaffed. 193 00:17:41.940 --> 00:17:45.119 In fact, I think it gets it about right. 194 00:17:45.539 --> 00:18:12.059 And the sort of interesting things, you know, the other things that maybe you didn't mention that sort of very moffity, the idea of sort of levels of narrative and the relationship between the narrator and the story, in particular, the idea that if there's a narrator, their story will eventually catch up with them and they'll become involved in the story that they're telling. 195 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:27.180 And so here, you have right from the cold open, you've got the idea that the doctor and Donna are, the imaginations of a child. 196 00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:59.579 So there's a child in a normal contemporary house, maybe even a little bit earlier, there's a very kind of sort of 1980s style, sort of telephone and stuff, she is just sort of a normal child in a contemporary setting, but when she closes her eyes, she goes to the place where the doctor and Donna appear and that incredibly strange moment where the doctor and Donna start interacting with her, Like they notice her and starting to reacting with her just before the opening credits. 197 00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:13.799 Um, and, you know, she wakes up and, and, and then replaying that scene again later in the episode and we see that what the doctor and Donna actually saw was that sort of football, that, um, the security camera. 198 00:19:13.859 --> 00:19:16.380 Yeah, yeah, sort of wooden monopticon. 199 00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:41.400 And what Dr. Moon says, like Dr. Moon, in those scenes, initially Dr. Moon says, you realise the library's in your head and that this is the real world, and then just before the cliffhanger, and I think it's the most impressive part of the cliffhanger, is that terrifying speech where, no, this world is a lie and the things that you have nightmares about. those are real. 200 00:19:41.460 --> 00:19:44.339 And so those different levels of reality. 201 00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:50.579 Like, did you spot that, Johnny, I mean, you, you spotted that saved meant saved to a hard drive. 202 00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:58.200 Did you spot that the girl's real world was actually VR that was taking place in the same computer? 203 00:19:58.259 --> 00:20:01.920 I don't know if I spotted it per se, but I just kind of read it that way. 204 00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:05.160 You know, I didn't think there was anything too spot. 205 00:20:05.220 --> 00:20:06.240 Right. in that. 206 00:20:06.299 --> 00:20:09.660 Like I just sort of assumed that that's what was going on. 207 00:20:09.720 --> 00:20:19.619 But it's interesting what you say about trying to turn the characters into fiction, trying to turn the doctor and Donna into fiction, so she's watching it through television. 208 00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:27.359 We get this sense of people watching Doctor Who on television in front of us in a kind of trial of a time lord kind of way. 209 00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:30.599 And it's, I'm not sure what it means though. 210 00:20:30.660 --> 00:20:34.619 Like I'm not sure why we want to point out the fiction of it at this point. 211 00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:37.259 It's a Moffatt thing though, isn't it? 212 00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:44.880 Like Moffat is very, very much not creating a coherent world for the doctor to have adventures in in the way that Russell does do. 213 00:20:44.940 --> 00:20:52.920 Like Russell creates a coherent world where the cybermen all have, you know, like a story and all of that sort of thing and everything follows. 214 00:20:52.980 --> 00:20:53.579 And I love that. 215 00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:54.299 Do you know what I mean? 216 00:20:54.359 --> 00:21:03.539 That's the sort of world that a 12 year old watching Doctor Who absolutely adores, whereas Moffatt is super aware of the fictionality of the premise. 217 00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:11.579 And so he will do things like reset the universe at the end of series 5 and have it recreated through the power of stories and stuff. 218 00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:14.940 You know, that's a very, very Moffat thing. 219 00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:32.279 One of my favourite things is going back to Edwardian Children's Fiction, which Doctor Who is just the natural inheritor of, but the story of being in a library in your head in a library is pure British children's storytelling. 220 00:21:32.339 --> 00:21:45.900 And in fact, you know, the outside of the library is this sort of fabulous, futuristic, but slightly deco kind of city and then inside the library is, you know, wood panelling and all of that sort of thing. 221 00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:51.480 But it's the safe place for fan children to go to to get away from the sports field at school. 222 00:21:51.539 --> 00:21:52.680 This is, I think, another level. 223 00:21:52.740 --> 00:21:54.720 We were talking about the fan experience earlier. 224 00:21:54.779 --> 00:21:59.579 Moffa is not only interested in the way that TV is presented and consumed. 225 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:09.420 He's also interested in the fan experience, and so what could be more fan than a young child watching the adventures of Dr. and Donna on screen, closing their eyes and being back there. 226 00:22:09.480 --> 00:22:19.259 And what could be more fan than the need to hide, and even the touching on, and this is where Moffatt's depths can't be under estimated. 227 00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:36.839 The spectrums that a lot of us fans have and that need for isolation and are not quite cluing into other people's emotions, how others connect, but being able to do so through a medium of, say, in this case, a library. 228 00:22:37.380 --> 00:22:43.680 Can we take that even further and say that as a child, your world was being surrounded by all those brilliant Doctor Who novelisations? 229 00:22:43.740 --> 00:22:44.819 I think absolutely. 230 00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:49.559 I mean, the library is not alien territory for the people watching this avidly. 231 00:22:49.619 --> 00:22:52.619 In fact, there were 2 things going on as a fan. 232 00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:58.799 You were watching it on television and then you were going to the local library to look for the books so that you could relive the experience. 233 00:22:58.920 --> 00:23:06.539 So there's, I really like this idea, but that what he's doing is mirroring the kind of fan experience of it. 234 00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:10.380 And if I think about what this story is about. 235 00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:17.940 I think primarily it seems to me about the power of relationships and friendships and about how we need people around us. 236 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:23.880 But maybe in sort of trying to explore the fictionality of Doctor Who. 237 00:23:23.940 --> 00:23:37.019 Maybe what it's also saying kind of above just, hey, aren't books awesome, you know, aren't stories awesome, but maybe is that the imagination is a kind of is a kind of sacred kind of place. 238 00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:45.539 A child's imagination is a kind of a locked off safe place for kids which needs to be preserved and needs to be cherished. 239 00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:47.039 It's definitely a place. 240 00:23:47.099 --> 00:23:48.900 Yes, thank you, Johnny. 241 00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:49.859 It's the place. 242 00:23:49.980 --> 00:23:50.940 That's the plate. 243 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:55.380 Well, no, because it's what I was going to touch on with Miss Evangelist later on. 244 00:23:56.039 --> 00:24:04.259 The place of safety and for a young child, in this case, a female young child who needs to find, I'll throw something up. 245 00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:06.299 Did anyone else find a chill? 246 00:24:06.299 --> 00:24:13.680 In this episode when Miss Evangelister is introduced and she said, I'm his miss everything. 247 00:24:13.740 --> 00:24:15.960 I'm his assistant at everything. 248 00:24:16.019 --> 00:24:21.779 Well, you reckon that I'm going to go further with this because, yeah, because it does. 249 00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:28.500 It actually talks about the safety of the individual and the safety of the small of the small child in this. 250 00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:36.240 If we're talking about Miss Evangelista, I think there's something kind of low-level problematic about her. character in this episode. 251 00:24:36.299 --> 00:24:40.200 And remember, she has got very different story next episode. 252 00:24:40.259 --> 00:24:47.880 But it's partly to do with that line, which I think might get a blue line through it these days. 253 00:24:47.940 --> 00:24:51.180 Well, it was right at the time when things were starting to come out. 254 00:24:51.240 --> 00:24:51.839 Yeah. 255 00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:55.619 And it's also, she's, she's um, a bimbo. 256 00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:57.900 She's named after a supermodel. 257 00:24:57.960 --> 00:24:58.259 Yeah. 258 00:24:58.259 --> 00:25:03.180 And she's kind of low-level bullied by everyone else around her. 259 00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:06.779 I'm just not sure you would put that character on screen. 260 00:25:06.900 --> 00:25:08.579 I think it's the... 261 00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:09.180 I don't know. 262 00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:15.059 I think it's the same reason that J.K. Rowling writes Potter's actual father as a bully. 263 00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:22.079 It's the same reason that Moffatt looks as his own behaviour as being one of the smartest kids at school and remembering how he treated people in the group. 264 00:25:22.140 --> 00:25:28.980 Because I think if we look back, there are very few of us who did not treat other children like that, who we've read, did not come to our level. 265 00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:42.059 Yeah, I think, I think too, that she is like a child in that she's, uh, she talks about her father, you know, she's, she doesn't have, seem to have sort of like adult relationships. 266 00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:47.700 She's not overtly sort of sexual, she's pretty, but she's not described as sexy or anything like that. 267 00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:50.160 And she does that thing. 268 00:25:50.220 --> 00:25:53.579 The wandering off, you know, a door opens. 269 00:25:53.700 --> 00:25:57.119 It, irresistible to her, she goes off exploring to see what's happening. 270 00:25:57.180 --> 00:26:03.359 She is a little bit like the protagonist of a children's story. 271 00:26:03.420 --> 00:26:06.420 But I do also think that the reason that she's bullied. 272 00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:13.980 And she is bullied in a way that doesn't make us like Anita or other Dave any less. 273 00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:19.200 She's bullied in a way, and I guess I think it's her kind of obliviousness to that. 274 00:26:19.259 --> 00:26:24.779 Like she, she doesn't understand the nasty things that people are saying about her. 275 00:26:24.839 --> 00:26:27.000 She gets that she's being bullied. 276 00:26:27.059 --> 00:26:31.319 But I would say we all do when she when she cites the kind woman. 277 00:26:31.380 --> 00:26:33.660 I want to speak to the kind person. 278 00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:38.400 Everybody, everybody knows, every animal knows, the genuineness or other of your intent. 279 00:26:38.460 --> 00:26:44.160 It's quite a sophisticated take on bullying as well because yes, they are bullying her. 280 00:26:44.220 --> 00:26:46.200 That's absolutely what's happening. 281 00:26:46.259 --> 00:26:51.180 But you can really see why they're not bullying her because she says she's pretty. 282 00:26:51.240 --> 00:26:57.480 They're not bullying her because they view her as being something less than themselves. 283 00:26:57.539 --> 00:27:00.240 It's because she keeps doing annoying things. 284 00:27:00.299 --> 00:27:03.000 And, you know, Moffatt's making her do that. 285 00:27:03.059 --> 00:27:07.380 You know, Moffatt's making her go to the escape capsule instead of the bathroom or whatever. 286 00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:12.599 Like he puts those details in where she is kind of really stupid. 287 00:27:12.779 --> 00:27:23.700 And I wonder whether the thing is that Moffat takes the most cartoon. of the characters there, which is Miss Evangelist, right? 288 00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:31.500 I think that she's so stupid that she doesn't get the plankton remark, you know, and she's ditsy and sort of funny and stuff. 289 00:27:31.559 --> 00:27:43.380 And then making her the person that we, like her death is one of the most affecting deaths, I think, in the history of Doctor Who. 290 00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:46.680 Miss Evangelista with maybe the candlestick in the library. 291 00:27:46.920 --> 00:27:48.839 Let's not forget. 292 00:27:48.900 --> 00:27:50.940 I guess my point is, could she have been a man? 293 00:27:51.000 --> 00:28:01.500 Like to avoid that whole, that whole treatment of that character in that particular way. agenda swap might have been the easiest one. glad you went there because it's deliberate. 294 00:28:01.559 --> 00:28:09.359 And even the notion of evangelical or ascendent or transcendent is in the name as well as the supermodel thing. 295 00:28:09.420 --> 00:28:13.259 No, she's a woman and let's not underestimate Moffatt's depth. 296 00:28:13.319 --> 00:28:15.180 I'm seeing imposter syndrome. 297 00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:25.619 A person will behave gullibly and stupidly and awkwardly when they are told they're no good, and you can tame a child from a very, very early age to be told they're stupid. 298 00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:27.299 Now she has enormous amounts of empathy. 299 00:28:27.779 --> 00:28:32.940 As we now as Psych now reads, is actually a higher form of intelligence than IQ. 300 00:28:33.059 --> 00:28:34.680 So all of that is there. 301 00:28:34.740 --> 00:28:36.660 But to be told, you're an idiot all your life. 302 00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:44.220 That's why I love that line of, if they think I'm stupid because I'm pretty, because all I have consciously is my face. 303 00:28:44.220 --> 00:28:52.980 Because everything else is derided, but my face is the reason this man has hired me and I am his factotum as miss everything. 304 00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:56.579 It's, I really do think it gets as dark as that. 305 00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:02.519 Mrs. Boundrel says hi. 306 00:29:02.579 --> 00:29:04.980 By the way, and she has something to throw in at this point. 307 00:29:05.039 --> 00:29:07.619 She wandered past the television as I was watching it. 308 00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:19.799 She said, the scene which you describe is heartbreaking the scene where she dies, and I agree, it's really, and it's tragically written, all that bit about, if, you know, don't tell them, I said that stuff about me being stupid. 309 00:29:19.859 --> 00:29:34.619 But as, as Mrs. Banjo said, that device, the last thing that she hears is the thing which lingers in her mind, right, towards death, is the sort of thing, is a warning, really, to be careful about what you say to people. 310 00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:41.279 Because you never know what if it's going to be the last thing they hear and if it's going to ring in their ears at the moment of their passing. 311 00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:41.819 So. 312 00:29:41.940 --> 00:29:44.519 Yeah, in fact, Moffat does shame those people. 313 00:29:44.579 --> 00:29:54.059 Like he has them standing there listening to her talk about what they've said about her and what they think of her. 314 00:29:54.119 --> 00:29:59.099 So they are embarrassed by the way that they've treated her. 315 00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:00.599 Can we talk about this? 316 00:30:00.599 --> 00:30:04.079 Because there is this thing that Moffatt has about death. 317 00:30:04.140 --> 00:30:12.180 You know, that's a big thing that's coming up all throughout his era and kind of rubbing our noses in the fact of death. 318 00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:16.380 Now, people complain that Moffat brings people back to life and all of that sort of thing. 319 00:30:16.440 --> 00:30:20.220 But, you know, the don't cremate me thing in dark water. 320 00:30:20.279 --> 00:30:24.359 The, you know, what happens to Danny Pink in that same episode. 321 00:30:24.420 --> 00:30:31.079 We saw Dracula earlier this year and Dracula is all about what happens to you when you die. 322 00:30:31.079 --> 00:30:54.960 And here, having us forced to watch her die slowly in a completely kind of PG, non-gory way, but nevertheless, an absolutely heartbreaking and terrifying way where her thought to break down, she's no longer able to think, like her brain has disappeared and all that's left is this sort of degrading memory pattern. 323 00:30:55.019 --> 00:30:59.160 I just find it absolutely chilling, like utterly terrifying. 324 00:30:59.220 --> 00:31:17.819 And the fact that people turn into, you know, your death at the time of your death, you'll turn from a person into an object, you know, that that you don't think you, um, no one has quite the same moral responsibilities towards you as as they did before, you know, your wishes and things. 325 00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:22.380 Your plans, your hopes all vanish from the earth at that point. 326 00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:28.319 And so turning her into this sort of data ghost that's just eventually just repeating nonsense. 327 00:31:28.380 --> 00:31:35.039 And, you know, Anita says the same thing about her grandfather who just ends up spending a day obsessing about his shoelaces. 328 00:31:35.099 --> 00:31:38.220 And that does happen to people's grandfathers. 329 00:31:38.279 --> 00:31:39.059 Do you know what I mean? 330 00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:41.099 Even now, even without that technology. 331 00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:42.599 That's what happens to us. 332 00:31:42.660 --> 00:31:50.940 And so Russell does that thing in cucumber episode 6 where he forces us to live through Lance's death from Lance's point of view. 333 00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:56.339 And again, I find that one of the most horrifically scary things that I've ever seen on television. 334 00:31:56.400 --> 00:31:58.440 And this I think is like that. 335 00:31:58.500 --> 00:32:00.359 I think it's incredible. 336 00:32:00.420 --> 00:32:02.940 And the fact that it's not just done for a cheap trick. 337 00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:04.799 It's how we solve the problem at the end. 338 00:32:04.859 --> 00:32:07.859 But it really is incredibly good. 339 00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:10.079 Can I offer a slightly different reading to that as well? 340 00:32:10.140 --> 00:32:15.420 It is concerned with death and Moffat is concerned with the experience of death and living. 341 00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:17.700 How about Alzheimer's power? 342 00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:18.960 Yeah, well, that's what I think. 343 00:32:19.019 --> 00:32:23.519 I think we had the, you know, the grandfather who, you know, became consumed with tying your shoe laces. 344 00:32:23.579 --> 00:32:33.240 Miss Evangelis's data ghosting is about the breakdown of her mind in sort of real time until she's left with nothing but repeating herself. 345 00:32:33.299 --> 00:32:42.960 Next episode, we'll have Donna consistently finding herself in new and unfamiliar circumstances and having to be reminded who people are and that kind of thing. 346 00:32:43.019 --> 00:32:51.420 And then there's River, uh, who's someone who, uh, she's got someone who she knows, but who doesn't know her and it's heartbreaking. 347 00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:02.160 Let's talk more about River and the doctor. 348 00:33:02.220 --> 00:33:06.599 I'll talk about River because, yeah, she's she's definitely Benny Summerfield. 349 00:33:06.660 --> 00:33:10.319 She's also a kind of she's also kind of souped up Romana as well too. 350 00:33:10.380 --> 00:33:12.240 And like Benny. 351 00:33:13.079 --> 00:33:21.059 And I think that, um, you know, we were talking about how Moffat approaches female characters. 352 00:33:21.119 --> 00:33:28.859 And Rivers, the River's another example of this enigmatic woman who's a puzzle that the doctor has to solve. 353 00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:32.039 And I find that a little bit wearing. 354 00:33:32.940 --> 00:33:36.720 I founded an advent calendar into Moffatt's ideal woman. 355 00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:38.880 And the handcuffs coming out. 356 00:33:38.940 --> 00:33:39.480 It's Stephen. 357 00:33:39.599 --> 00:33:47.579 I don't need to, I don't need to unpack this with you every time you write a woman that you actually find attractive. 358 00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:51.000 But I think that she's too, Alex Kingston's terrific in it. 359 00:33:51.059 --> 00:34:05.700 And I think she's really watchable and I think it's a great character, but it's more about how we keep seeing that repeat over and over again that you do wonder why why we're positioning the female characters in Doctor Who in that way. 360 00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:08.699 It is all of his major female characters, isn't it? 361 00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:09.300 It's Amy. 362 00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:11.159 It's, you know, most obviously Clara. 363 00:34:11.219 --> 00:34:13.019 It's Julius Swar impressed game. 364 00:34:13.079 --> 00:34:16.800 Yeah, it's really Sparrow having to be kind of unpicked emotionally. 365 00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:20.280 But, I mean, he does it in coupling as well. 366 00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:28.920 And the idea is that the women are hypercompetent because the men are so useless. 367 00:34:28.920 --> 00:34:40.380 And River will take on the role of kind of deflating the doctor whenever he does something massively stupid, like shooting the fares and the Stetson and stuff. 368 00:34:40.500 --> 00:34:44.820 Like, you know, like, know that you're a stupid man, stop doing that. 369 00:34:45.119 --> 00:35:16.440 And she does it a bit here too, because she knows more than the doctor about their relationship, she's the one who is on the front foot, and the doctor is kind of clueless, and one of the things that both of Moffatt's doctors are, is thoughtless kind of man children, you know, like people who are oblivious to the effect that they have on other people. around them. 370 00:35:16.500 --> 00:35:21.000 Moffatt's very, very 1st sitcom is called Joking Apart. 371 00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:25.079 And it is partly autobiographical. 372 00:35:25.139 --> 00:35:27.000 It's about the breakup of his 1st marriage. 373 00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:46.260 And all the way through, we're told that the ex-wife character was responsible for the breakup because she had an affair, and he's aggrieved that he's been cheated on, until it really becomes clear throughout that 1st series, and the 2nd series is absolutely embarrassing, and you shouldn't watch it at all. 374 00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:53.460 But the 1st series, it becomes clear that the reason that she left is that Moffat was an insufferable smart ass. 375 00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:55.739 And both of his doctors are like that. 376 00:35:55.800 --> 00:35:58.440 And so he is... 377 00:35:58.440 --> 00:35:59.579 He has no one to blame but himself. 378 00:35:59.639 --> 00:36:02.159 No, but he's working through that. 379 00:36:02.219 --> 00:36:03.539 He's clearly acknowledging that. 380 00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:17.579 And so although he has a sort of rather essentialist way of presenting these sort of female characters, what he is examining just as much is what's wrong with masculinity, I think. 381 00:36:17.639 --> 00:36:25.079 I think there's another thing that this season is doing, which is constantly trying to wrongfoot the doctor, like throwing in new elements all the time. 382 00:36:25.139 --> 00:36:29.880 Give him a, give him a daughter, put him on a space bus full of psychopaths and see what happens. 383 00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:38.159 And in its way, it's in a response to tenants kind of his own kind of uber competence, an uber competence, you know. 384 00:36:38.219 --> 00:36:40.199 So let's give him a wife and see what happens. 385 00:36:40.260 --> 00:36:54.599 Um, I think that River, here in this story, is there's a kind of reading this story, if you were, if you were really old school fanboy and didn't like the idea of the doctor having a wife, you could read this as River as a future companion. 386 00:36:54.659 --> 00:36:58.199 Like she does a range of sort of companion like activities. 387 00:36:58.260 --> 00:37:08.280 Whereas later as she develops, she becomes much more a sort of alternative doctor, she becomes much more kind of doing the, doing the sort of things the doctor would do only, only better. 388 00:37:08.340 --> 00:37:10.199 You know, she's sexier, she'll shoot a gun. 389 00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:12.059 Please fly the TARDIS properly. 390 00:37:12.119 --> 00:37:12.659 Yeah, yeah. 391 00:37:12.719 --> 00:37:13.800 She doesn't put the handbrake on. 392 00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:21.360 So I think at the moment, there's this one thing of just trying to throw in an element, to twist the whole thing into a new and different way. 393 00:37:21.420 --> 00:37:24.840 It's also in a way playing a little safe, this episode with River. 394 00:37:24.900 --> 00:37:27.599 Maybe that's because it's a kind of gradual thing and you've got to start small. 395 00:37:27.719 --> 00:37:31.920 I think next week it is 100% certain that they are husband and wife. 396 00:37:31.980 --> 00:37:35.039 I think there's absolutely no doubt that and we'll talk about it next week. 397 00:37:35.099 --> 00:37:39.119 Yeah, I'll talk about next week when I think that becomes absolutely clear. 398 00:37:39.179 --> 00:37:42.780 But they are clearly in a romantic relationship. 399 00:37:42.840 --> 00:37:44.579 You know, very clearly. 400 00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:58.980 When Paul Cornell 1st wrote Human Nature, he said that one of the things that he missed, or one of the costs that that story imposed on the show was making the doctor heterosexual. 401 00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:12.480 And he was aware that the doctor's kind of lack of interest in women may have been responsible for the big kind of following that the program had, you know, among gay fans. 402 00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:15.360 I mean, there's a camp sensibility to the show and all of that sort of thing. 403 00:38:15.420 --> 00:38:26.340 But the fact that the doctor isn't a romantic leading man, um, it was a thing that appealed to us and that made him different from other heroes, uh, in other stories. 404 00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:30.119 But, you know, by series 4, that ship failed. 405 00:38:30.179 --> 00:38:34.139 You know, so there's nothing to lose, I think, by giving him a wife. 406 00:38:34.260 --> 00:38:47.460 And just as a weird thing last night, um, I watched the Husbands of River song last night because that's the end of that River song arc. 407 00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:55.500 And I think that the sort of marriage relationship that the 2 of them are depicted as having doesn't break the program at all. 408 00:38:55.559 --> 00:38:56.760 And that's one of the things. 409 00:38:56.820 --> 00:39:02.460 Another thing that Moffat will do is that he will do things that look like they're going to change the program enormously. 410 00:39:02.519 --> 00:39:07.619 There's another doctor, you know, the doctor, his death planet we know about, you know, all of these sort of stuff. 411 00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:10.139 And in fact, it makes no difference. 412 00:39:10.199 --> 00:39:10.679 The show goes on. 413 00:39:10.739 --> 00:39:14.460 And we have had this relationship before with the 4th doctor and Romana. 414 00:39:14.519 --> 00:39:15.119 Yeah. 415 00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:19.920 They are husband and wife time lord in space with the dog and lately they get the kid. 416 00:39:20.579 --> 00:39:21.960 So true. 417 00:39:22.079 --> 00:39:23.699 And then it all goes to him. 418 00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:25.679 Such a disappointment. 419 00:39:25.739 --> 00:39:32.699 We've only been more perfect if David Tennant, Alex Kingston, had got married in real life. rather than marrying his own daughter. 420 00:39:32.760 --> 00:39:33.659 Let's not go there. 421 00:39:33.719 --> 00:39:34.440 It's too Trumpian. 422 00:39:34.500 --> 00:39:41.039 It would have been lovely if there'd been a doctor in river special the following year, if one of those four. 423 00:39:41.099 --> 00:39:43.800 We could have seen them, seen them normalised in that way. 424 00:39:43.860 --> 00:39:45.420 I'm hoping we get one with Jody. 425 00:39:45.480 --> 00:39:58.500 I wonder whether the whole arc is spoiled a little bit by the fact that this is the only time that that river meets David Tennant's doctor. 426 00:39:58.559 --> 00:40:02.760 Like, you know, the next time they meet in the crash of the Byzantium, it's someone else. 427 00:40:03.119 --> 00:40:10.079 But I kind of have this sort of thing where she doesn't really know what order the doctors come in and doesn't really care. 428 00:40:10.139 --> 00:40:11.340 That's my thing. 429 00:40:11.400 --> 00:40:16.079 And that beautiful thing where she's looking at him and going, you are so young. 430 00:40:16.079 --> 00:40:21.900 And he does, you know, I'm not, you know, and then she, he's wrong, you know. 431 00:40:21.960 --> 00:40:25.860 But you see, I quite like the fact that you only get the one with David Ten. 432 00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:30.239 She looked at him saying you're so young because the bulk of her adventures with the doctor have been with the 11th. 433 00:40:30.300 --> 00:40:34.619 Matt Smith, but then she has one with the 12th, Peter Caboldi. 434 00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:40.679 Then she has David Tennant and she's looking at him and saying, you're so young after she's just spent 24 years with the 12th doctor. 435 00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:41.460 Yeah. 436 00:40:41.460 --> 00:40:42.059 Yeah. 437 00:40:42.119 --> 00:40:43.139 Yeah. 438 00:40:43.199 --> 00:40:49.380 I also like the thing, but she can't remember what any of them look like until she actually turns up and sees them. 439 00:40:49.440 --> 00:40:53.340 She's the sort of fan who goes, was that a Matt Smith story? 440 00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:54.659 I can't remember the one that happened here. 441 00:40:54.719 --> 00:41:05.880 There's a great moment in Husbands of River song where she drops one of those card wallets with the sort of concertina cards and she has like publicity photos of all of the doctors in it. 442 00:41:05.880 --> 00:41:09.300 And she's sort of checking off Capoldi against it. 443 00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:10.139 No, he's not there. 444 00:41:10.199 --> 00:41:15.119 Wouldn't you have paid good money to see the special with the 6th doctor back with River Song? 445 00:41:15.179 --> 00:41:17.280 That would have worked. wonderfully. 446 00:41:17.340 --> 00:41:22.619 I want to see the CG version with Pat Trout and... 447 00:41:22.619 --> 00:41:23.519 Let's go back to Billy. 448 00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:26.039 Peter Cushing. 449 00:41:26.099 --> 00:41:27.900 Jolly good smacked bottom. 450 00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:45.119 We've talked a little bit about the sort of virtual reality aspect of the plot, but the one thing that we haven't talked about is the actual monsters. 451 00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:48.780 Well, we're back to Moffat. 452 00:41:48.840 --> 00:41:50.579 Aren't we playing with his psych tropes? 453 00:41:50.579 --> 00:41:56.340 Because the monsters are our shadows and most of this story is about owning our shadows and what happens when we don't. 454 00:41:56.460 --> 00:42:01.139 And then there's a lovely bit of environmental truth thrown on, but that's for late. 455 00:42:01.199 --> 00:42:02.639 Not for here. 456 00:42:02.699 --> 00:42:17.639 I also think it is his thing where, you know, he thinks that the real place, the Doctor Who takes place is under your bed and here, he makes something very, very common, very terrifying. 457 00:42:18.659 --> 00:42:20.880 I think they're terrific. 458 00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:27.780 And I think it's really brought home in the shots with the chicken leg that they throw into the, it's all done through editing, I imagine. 459 00:42:27.840 --> 00:42:29.460 It's really, really effective. 460 00:42:29.519 --> 00:42:31.320 You instantly know what the threat is. 461 00:42:31.380 --> 00:42:35.099 And he's been holding off telling you for about 30 minutes in that story. 462 00:42:35.159 --> 00:42:37.500 So it's about time he kind of demonstrated what it was. 463 00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:40.980 He knows how begrudging other Dave is in handing over his chicken leg, by the way. 464 00:42:41.039 --> 00:42:45.239 He's really annoyed that he's not going to have that chicken leg for lunch. 465 00:42:45.300 --> 00:42:46.380 Hell yeah, yeah. 466 00:42:46.380 --> 00:42:48.420 So they come in 2 forms, these monsters. 467 00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:51.659 They come in the shadows and they come in the skeleton spacesuit things. 468 00:42:51.719 --> 00:42:57.119 And the skeletons in the spacesuits, they're a terrific image. 469 00:42:57.179 --> 00:42:58.199 They look fantastic. 470 00:42:58.260 --> 00:43:08.940 And yet there's something kind of contrived about them because it means that the crew have to keep putting their helmets back on and keep finding reasons to put their helmets back on and dimming them. 471 00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:14.159 So there's you know, there's a bit of hand waving about, well, maybe it'll make it harder for them to digest you. 472 00:43:14.219 --> 00:43:19.260 But so it's a little bit, I find, and also once they're in the spacesuits. 473 00:43:19.320 --> 00:43:21.840 I'm not sure what they can actually do to you. 474 00:43:21.900 --> 00:43:25.440 Like at one stage, one of them pushes hard down on David Tennant's shoulders. 475 00:43:25.500 --> 00:43:31.260 But it's not like we ever see anyone come to their end at the hands of the bastionarata in that. 476 00:43:31.320 --> 00:43:33.599 Yeah, why are they running in terror from them in that form? 477 00:43:33.659 --> 00:43:34.559 Yeah, that's right. 478 00:43:34.619 --> 00:43:36.780 But very slowly running from them in that form. 479 00:43:37.139 --> 00:43:43.739 Aren't there scenes where the spacesuit is standing there and these shadows are emanating out of it? 480 00:43:43.800 --> 00:43:45.960 Yeah, so we could have just had the shadows. 481 00:43:46.019 --> 00:43:48.420 We don't actually need the spacesuits for that bit. 482 00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:54.539 But it feels so it feels so churlish to even say that because they're such great monsters. 483 00:43:54.599 --> 00:43:58.980 They look fantastic and they're terrific, but they are a little bit of window dressing, I think. 484 00:43:59.039 --> 00:44:05.820 Do you think that they are a little bit kind of playing on the ambassadors of death iconography as well. 485 00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:12.780 They are terrifyingly space suited things without even the gimmick of a skeleton. all they have to do is touch you. 486 00:44:12.840 --> 00:44:20.400 I think they're amazingly effective and they have to be kind of high up on Moffatt's list of memories of Doctor Who. 487 00:44:20.519 --> 00:44:22.500 Well, he'll return to this as well, won't he? 488 00:44:22.559 --> 00:44:31.619 The Impossible Astronaut and Day of the Moon, where he again uses it as a thing of otherness. something in a spacesuit, be it a little girl, or be it something rising from a leak. 489 00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:33.420 It goes back a long way. 490 00:44:33.480 --> 00:44:38.039 We have men in diving suits in 30s and 40s universal things. 491 00:44:38.099 --> 00:44:40.619 We have, gosh, what else? 492 00:44:40.679 --> 00:44:44.639 All of the SF tropes, tropes, tropes, tropes of... 493 00:44:44.699 --> 00:44:45.599 Well, there's the mask. 494 00:44:45.659 --> 00:44:54.539 There's the horror behind the mask and the notion that the full skin hides who we are both ways. 495 00:44:54.599 --> 00:44:58.980 We can hide it from ourselves inside it and others cannot see who we are. 496 00:44:59.039 --> 00:45:02.460 I think it's lucky, though, the Bastianarada have a particular... 497 00:45:02.519 --> 00:45:06.119 They have a particular preference for supporting characters. 498 00:45:06.179 --> 00:45:08.219 Yeah, that's that's that. 499 00:45:08.219 --> 00:45:11.280 That was kind of, that's the usual thing of backing off when they know he's name. 500 00:45:11.340 --> 00:45:12.119 Just eat him. 501 00:45:12.179 --> 00:45:12.719 He's right there. 502 00:45:12.780 --> 00:45:17.639 I think you'll find that all Doctor Who monsters have that particular predilection. 503 00:45:17.699 --> 00:45:24.719 But fair enough, in a universe reason for that, because the regulars are smart enough to keep away from them and stay out of the shadows and do as the doctor says. 504 00:45:24.840 --> 00:45:28.019 If I was one of the crew, though, I'd keep my helmet off at all times. 505 00:45:28.019 --> 00:45:30.539 I'd say this is clearly the way to not get it. 506 00:45:30.599 --> 00:45:31.860 Just leave my helmet off. 507 00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:32.280 Thanks very much. 508 00:45:32.340 --> 00:45:34.440 Does this go to a death comes to time? 509 00:45:34.500 --> 00:45:43.679 I'm sorry, I had to raise it at some and the bloody shenanigans of this lovely podcast, but is there something about the knowledge of the word or the truth of the word, which is quite cabalistic? 510 00:45:43.739 --> 00:45:48.599 And we go back to writers like Jorge Louis Borkes, which is, you know, the world is actually built on words. 511 00:45:48.659 --> 00:45:51.960 It's an okay thing to bring up since this is a story about words. 512 00:45:52.019 --> 00:46:01.860 Well, there is that big library, you know, like that's clearly where that comes from, a library that's the size of the world, that's absolutely vast. 513 00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:04.320 If you want power over the doctor. 514 00:46:04.380 --> 00:46:05.940 You need only speak one word. 515 00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:14.760 If you want to raise the golem from a mountainous effigy of clay to wreak havoc against your oppressors. 516 00:46:14.820 --> 00:46:19.260 You write this secret cabalistic name of God on a bit of paper and pop it in its mouth. 517 00:46:19.320 --> 00:46:20.639 I'm talking about the goal. 518 00:46:20.699 --> 00:46:25.440 I'm not, not, um, in a suit. 519 00:46:25.500 --> 00:46:30.119 We go back to Shakespeare code and the power of words in Doctor Who universe. 520 00:46:30.179 --> 00:46:33.780 They, you know, words are responsible for creating worlds. 521 00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:38.760 And in the doctor universe, it's words and mathematics, they are the universe, aren't they? 522 00:46:38.820 --> 00:46:39.599 They're the building blocks. 523 00:46:39.659 --> 00:46:47.159 Well, the higher the higher thinkers amongst us, you know, the folk that are actually working down at the synchrotron, like our friend Jason, a fan of the podcast. 524 00:46:47.219 --> 00:46:53.940 Hello, will say the same thing, that mathematics are the building blocks of the universe, and words are simply symbols of the same thing. 525 00:46:54.119 --> 00:46:57.480 Oh, it gets deep on this, doesn't it, Johnny? 526 00:46:57.539 --> 00:47:01.679 I just wanted to talk about, you know, little things eating people. 527 00:47:01.739 --> 00:47:03.119 Swarms of things. 528 00:47:03.179 --> 00:47:04.260 You've got dogs. 529 00:47:04.679 --> 00:47:10.079 It is that sort of perfect thing where it is designed to scare the hell out of small children. 530 00:47:10.079 --> 00:47:11.579 It does it well, doesn't it? 531 00:47:11.639 --> 00:47:19.380 And it creates a playground game where you're all standing around in the playground, not trying to cross one another's shadows, not letting the shadows touch. 532 00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:21.480 You know, your shadow is infected with this thing. 533 00:47:21.480 --> 00:47:22.559 All of that is perfect. 534 00:47:22.619 --> 00:47:23.699 Doesn't Moffat? 535 00:47:23.820 --> 00:47:30.420 Well, actually, I think writers that worked with Mothat in late season said his starting point was always, what's the playground game? 536 00:47:30.480 --> 00:47:31.500 Yeah, right. 537 00:47:31.559 --> 00:47:31.920 Right. 538 00:47:31.980 --> 00:47:33.780 Well, this absolutely has it. 539 00:47:33.840 --> 00:47:37.019 And those shadows things, there's that one fabulous moment. 540 00:47:37.079 --> 00:47:47.099 One thing that Moffat does is there'll be something in plain sight and then you'll realise that its presence is terrifying. 541 00:47:47.159 --> 00:47:51.059 And so there's one of them next week, just a brief one. 542 00:47:51.119 --> 00:48:07.860 But this week, it's, you know, they're in the room in the library, which has a hole in the roof or a sort of cupola made of glass or something, and there's a giant shadow on the floor, and then the doctor suddenly says, but what's casting it? 543 00:48:07.920 --> 00:48:15.960 You know, like he just takes ordinary things like shadows or motes of dust in a sunbeam and turns them in. 544 00:48:16.019 --> 00:48:16.800 Isn't it great? 545 00:48:16.860 --> 00:48:17.519 Superb. 546 00:48:17.579 --> 00:48:19.559 And just saying they're everywhere. 547 00:48:19.619 --> 00:48:20.699 We have them on earth. 548 00:48:20.760 --> 00:48:23.880 You know, you could be eaten by the vastinarada. 549 00:48:23.940 --> 00:48:32.159 And it's not quite as on the nose as the sort of fabulous montage of various sort of statues and stuff about the place at the end of Blink. 550 00:48:32.219 --> 00:48:35.940 But I think for a kid, it's even more terrifying. 551 00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:41.400 I think these monsters are among the best that Doctor Who's ever done just conceptually. 552 00:48:41.460 --> 00:48:51.300 Am I misremembering that in that very 1st wide shot where they come back into the library and the TARDIS is there that you are seeing the dust in the line? 553 00:48:51.360 --> 00:48:52.019 Yeah, yeah. 554 00:48:52.079 --> 00:48:53.940 Can we talk about the production too? 555 00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:55.380 because the locations. 556 00:48:55.440 --> 00:48:59.460 We slammed the doctor's daughter 2 weeks ago. 557 00:48:59.519 --> 00:49:05.820 Like we slammed that for the poor quality of the production, but here the locations are absolutely incredible. 558 00:49:05.880 --> 00:49:09.239 The CGI city looks great. 559 00:49:09.420 --> 00:49:13.440 Murray Gold is just killing it this week. 560 00:49:13.500 --> 00:49:16.079 Yeah, he does a, he does a great job. 561 00:49:16.139 --> 00:49:19.500 And I think it's on the, it's on the death of one of the Dave's. 562 00:49:19.559 --> 00:49:23.280 I'm sure there's a bit of space adventure in that music. 563 00:49:23.340 --> 00:49:27.239 I'm sure if you hear it, you can go to dum, dum, dum, dum. 564 00:49:27.239 --> 00:49:27.719 I think, yeah. 565 00:49:27.719 --> 00:49:34.619 It is a beaut. it does look beautiful this episode and I think everyone's really playing at the top of their game for this one. 566 00:49:34.679 --> 00:49:39.300 Didn't Mothat miss a trick for the 50th anniversary bring him back the day of the doctor? 567 00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:41.519 No, all right. 568 00:49:41.579 --> 00:49:43.920 Eros Lynn does a wonderful job. 569 00:49:43.980 --> 00:49:45.539 He's a terrific director. 570 00:49:45.599 --> 00:49:46.860 It's absolutely terrific. 571 00:49:46.920 --> 00:49:49.559 And he understands what goes on the screen. 572 00:49:49.619 --> 00:50:00.599 He understands the power of of large images to which he lingers on, like those shots in the library to create the atmosphere of the story. 573 00:50:00.659 --> 00:50:04.079 I think he's also a flourishy kind of director too. 574 00:50:04.139 --> 00:50:07.079 You know, so he'll he'll do kind of tilted angles. 575 00:50:07.139 --> 00:50:09.360 There's lots of colour in his shots all the time. 576 00:50:09.420 --> 00:50:12.179 It's not, he's not an understated kind of director. 577 00:50:12.179 --> 00:50:14.159 And yet he's great at pace. 578 00:50:14.219 --> 00:50:15.119 He's great at action. 579 00:50:15.179 --> 00:50:17.280 He's really, I think, kind of one of the unsung. 580 00:50:17.340 --> 00:50:19.679 Heroes of the 1st 4 years of the program. 581 00:50:19.739 --> 00:50:22.980 Like he's, does he do more episodes than anyone else? 582 00:50:23.039 --> 00:50:23.639 I don't know. 583 00:50:23.699 --> 00:50:37.679 It doesn't, but actually, if you look at his progress, he starts off just doing everyday episodes, and then as he goes on throughout Russell's era, he starts to do the big episodes, so he does Christmas, they does big 2 parter, and then he ends up doing David Tennant's swan song. 584 00:50:37.739 --> 00:50:39.539 So he comes back for all of the important beats. 585 00:50:39.659 --> 00:50:50.039 And let's not forget that after that terrible 1st the experience of the 1st production block in Christopher Eccleston's year, he came on board for episode 2 and 3 and he righted the ship. 586 00:50:50.099 --> 00:50:51.840 He made everything rise. 587 00:50:56.400 --> 00:51:04.559 So we get so few cliffhangers these days, and so they can't merely be, you know, someone walking in saying kill him or anything like that. 588 00:51:04.679 --> 00:51:09.599 This one, I just think, is an incredible whole series of events. 589 00:51:09.659 --> 00:51:11.400 He was the doctor all the time. 590 00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:16.800 You know, we've got we've got Donna screaming in the TARDIS and disappearing. 591 00:51:16.860 --> 00:51:19.019 One of the best screams in New Hood. 592 00:51:19.079 --> 00:51:19.320 Yeah. 593 00:51:19.320 --> 00:51:20.760 Chilling. 594 00:51:20.820 --> 00:51:23.099 Yeah, yeah. we don't know what's happening. 595 00:51:23.159 --> 00:51:24.900 We literally have no idea what's happening. 596 00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:29.159 And a clever choice of visual effect. to make it look like she's being dissolved. 597 00:51:29.280 --> 00:51:31.980 So you might think the Bastinarata have her. 598 00:51:32.039 --> 00:51:34.500 Like she hasn't, she doesn't just teleport away. 599 00:51:34.559 --> 00:51:38.880 She kind of gets eaten away by that visual effect and it's a nice sleight of hand, I think. 600 00:51:38.940 --> 00:51:44.820 And then I think in retrospect, it looks like a TV image, kind of kind of flickering out a little bit. 601 00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:48.960 So there's something computer-y about it, which, you know, is what happens. 602 00:51:49.019 --> 00:51:54.300 And we get Dr. Moon speech about the real world not being real. 603 00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:57.960 We get, you know, proper Dave menacing them. 604 00:51:58.019 --> 00:52:03.119 And then we get Donna and Donna on the node, like on that statue thing. 605 00:52:03.599 --> 00:52:06.840 And again, you know how we're talking about death before? 606 00:52:06.900 --> 00:52:11.760 You know, like, there's a bank of dead flesh that produces those. 607 00:52:11.820 --> 00:52:16.380 So the fact that she appears on that thing means that she's dead, you know, as far as we're concerned. 608 00:52:16.619 --> 00:52:23.340 And then just that one moment just before the closing credits go in where she blinks. 609 00:52:23.400 --> 00:52:30.659 Like, check it out, the next time, at the very end, she delivers her Dona Noble has been saved line and then just blinks very slowly. 610 00:52:30.780 --> 00:52:34.559 There's a pause that's not there in any other kind of shot of her saying that. 611 00:52:35.519 --> 00:52:44.400 Yeah, I will say that, you know, because I sort of came to this pre-spoiled in a way by the 1st few minutes of it, which is very apt, I suppose, in a spoiler-ish. 612 00:52:44.460 --> 00:52:46.079 It's constantly warning about spoilers. 613 00:52:46.139 --> 00:52:50.159 Her lines towards the end of that episode are Donna Noble has been saved. 614 00:52:50.219 --> 00:52:52.800 Donna Noble was going, okay, I'm going, yeah, I know. 615 00:52:52.860 --> 00:52:55.019 I know you keep telling me this and I know it already. 616 00:52:55.139 --> 00:53:03.059 So it is kind of, but it is where I agree about the cliffhanger is that the sequence of events leading up to it is masterful. 617 00:53:03.119 --> 00:53:05.940 Like it is absolutely played with the right beats at the right time. 618 00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:19.679 Yeah, you don't have that many cliffhangers, and, you know, that very, very 1st cliffhanger, the new series of Doctor Who over does, which is just everyone in every plot subplot gets attacked by Slovene all at once. 619 00:53:19.739 --> 00:53:25.679 I mean, that's great, and it does mean that we've got more people in peril than we might have had otherwise. 620 00:53:25.739 --> 00:53:30.420 And Jackie in peril, obviously, which makes it sort of extra effective. 621 00:53:30.480 --> 00:53:31.380 Not too many shots. 622 00:53:31.440 --> 00:53:35.219 Yeah, I haven't worked out how to build to a climax in a cliffhanger. 623 00:53:35.280 --> 00:53:36.420 But here there's different things. 624 00:53:36.539 --> 00:53:49.500 There's peril, there's Donna's dead, perhaps, there's a complete kind of upending of the relationship between the framing story and the main story or whatever. 625 00:53:49.559 --> 00:53:51.119 You know, all of that stuff is happening. 626 00:53:51.179 --> 00:53:57.480 It's conceptual, it's proper terror, and it's, you know, um, a Moffat catchfrases. 627 00:53:57.539 --> 00:53:59.880 In fact, duelling Moffat catchphrases, in fact. 628 00:53:59.940 --> 00:54:02.460 I think another part of it that works. 629 00:54:02.519 --> 00:54:07.260 And if you're a young child, I think this is effective is the doctor is absolutely helpless at the moment. 630 00:54:07.320 --> 00:54:10.619 He's standing on a pile of books trying to make the lights work. 631 00:54:10.679 --> 00:54:12.780 You know, like he has no answer. 632 00:54:12.780 --> 00:54:14.940 And the thing is coming towards them. 633 00:54:15.059 --> 00:54:19.559 And, and, as we'll see next week, he still doesn't have an answer. 634 00:54:19.619 --> 00:54:27.960 So it is kind of, um, I think that would be frightening if you were a child watching it and your, your confidence in this doctor may have been shaken over this episode. 635 00:54:56.519 --> 00:55:05.880 Well, they listen to that skeleton in the spacesuit isn't going to flee itself, so we're all gonna leg it down this corridor in search of somewhere with some nice, safe fluorescent lighting. 636 00:55:06.059 --> 00:55:10.139 We'll be back next week, we hope, for Forest of the Dead. 637 00:55:10.199 --> 00:55:25.500 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us at Flight 3 Entirety on Facebook, at FTE podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger and Jody into Terror. 638 00:55:25.559 --> 00:55:27.539 Where can people find you, Johnny? 639 00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:32.400 You can find me on Twitter at Johnny Spandrel, and you can read my blog at Randomhooness.com. 640 00:55:32.460 --> 00:55:35.639 You can also find him in the Castlands office on Gallifrey. 641 00:55:35.820 --> 00:55:37.440 Snort. 642 00:55:38.099 --> 00:55:39.719 All right. 643 00:55:39.780 --> 00:55:45.239 Until next time, remember, if you want to live, for God's sake, count the shadows. 644 00:55:45.300 --> 00:55:46.800 Message ends. 645 00:55:46.860 --> 00:55:49.079 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 646 00:55:49.139 --> 00:55:49.980 Good night. 647 00:55:50.039 --> 00:55:50.639 Good night. 648 00:55:50.760 --> 00:55:56.340 You can probably find me on a park bench somewhere, you know, just, you know, send me a text. 649 00:55:59.400 --> 00:56:04.320 That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottonley, Peter Griffiths, Johnny Spandrel, and Richard Stone. 650 00:56:04.380 --> 00:56:08.099 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings Performance by Jane Orberg. 651 00:56:08.159 --> 00:56:14.280 This episode, no one to blame but himself, was recorded on the 23rd of February 2020 and released on the 3rd of May. 652 00:56:17.340 --> 00:56:31.139 Here at FDE publications were about to release a series of novelisations of some of our earlier episodes, including FDE and the giant cake, FDE and the 8 hour recording session, and FDE, and why the hell won't Nathan shut up about the massacre. 653 00:56:32.039 --> 00:56:37.559 Again, I'm just coming back to this is not a story about science fiction or Doctor Who. 654 00:56:37.619 --> 00:56:44.820 It's about interpersonal relationships and actually our relationship with the outside world as individual fans and our vulnerability in that world. 655 00:56:44.880 --> 00:56:54.179 But I do think that in spite of that, it actually functions on the level of just a science fiction adventure story incredibly well. 656 00:56:54.239 --> 00:56:55.739 Really superb. 657 00:56:55.800 --> 00:56:59.099 I know we get kind of do say that a lot. 658 00:56:59.159 --> 00:57:03.480 Maybe it's just this era, but I'm really, that's why we love this show because it is often superb. 659 00:57:03.539 --> 00:57:09.659 No, just, you know, since I'm sitting with Peter, but I haven't enjoyed a story so much since Dalek's in Manhattan. 660 00:57:10.619 --> 00:57:12.239 Another classic. 661 00:57:12.360 --> 00:57:15.480 After Santar and 2 parts, didn't that look better in retrospect? 662 00:57:15.599 --> 00:57:18.599 But it was funny, we were all, I don't know if you heard that, Johnny. 663 00:57:18.659 --> 00:57:21.900 We were all sitting around last year doing our Daleks in Manhattan retrospective. 664 00:57:21.960 --> 00:57:28.559 No one looked at me, was you can't, because again, for radio, faces for radio, everyone looked at me like, I dropped the chine, I said, I love this one. 665 00:57:28.679 --> 00:57:30.119 No, I'm with you. 666 00:57:30.179 --> 00:57:31.920 I'm with you on Daleks in Manhattan. 667 00:57:31.980 --> 00:57:33.780 It's actually, yeah, it's... 668 00:57:33.780 --> 00:57:34.739 But I love New York at that time. 669 00:57:34.800 --> 00:57:35.219 So, yeah. 670 00:57:35.280 --> 00:57:46.139 But again, there's that sense of people coming together and solving things in that great, you know, pit pip, Dunkirk, you know, never, isn't it a shame we haven't any toilet paper way of approaching the world. will just manage. 671 00:57:47.099 --> 00:57:49.531 I think it's lucky, though, that...