WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 13:08:45

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Hello, dear Lisa, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the

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only Doctor Who podcast, doing an array of our usual tropes from

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2021 to 2024, but just a year or 2 early.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Peter.

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I'm Johnny.

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And I'm Picasso's Nicked, weeping woman for this one.

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Well, it's been a whole week, but somehow it seems like no time

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has passed at all.

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On the upside, that Dr. Moon seems nice and we have a very

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handsome and attentive new husband.

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In fact, it doesn't even occur to us to worry about what's

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happening to the doctor in the forest of the dead.

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So, we had a cliffhanger last week that we were all pretty on

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board with.

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How do we feel about the resolution of the cliffhanger this week?

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Can I say I was confused by the squareness gun?

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For years, they went off for years, but while I was going on, I

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was thinking, that's Jack's gun.

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Why does she have Jack's gun?

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I thought, maybe she's Jack.

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But it is the 51st century.

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Yes.

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Well, I think the implication is that she's been on the Tartars

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and found it kind of hanging around in a storage roundle or

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something.

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Does the doctor steal that off Jack in the episode or not in the

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doctor dances, I think?

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he pocket it?

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I think he pockets it and she finds it.

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Oh, okay.

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Isn't it foolish of River not being able to know that you can

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reverse the settings and close up those gaps so the astronaut

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maybe can't.

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It is a great effect, isn't it?

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And particularly this time where the hole is kind of on an angle.

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So, and I was just imagining all of the set people, all of the

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carpenters and stuff, soaring holes in the walls and stuff like

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that. hating mock.

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Is that because River Song shoots from the hip?

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I was so pleased to see that the TARDIS teleport that we actually

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see right back in an unearthly child, those 4 horizontal roundels

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behind the monitor that you also have in the Pertwear era.

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It works perfectly well, and Susan could have easily been rescued

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at any point.

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He could have sold so many problems, really.

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At any point.

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It's always been working, tells us everything.

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So we don't really pick up on what's going on in the library, kind

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of straight away, do we?

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It's a little while in or did I dream that?

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There's a little bit of sort of running around with nothing

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happening, but it's mainly focussed on Donna.

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But we get to Donna by having the girl watching television.

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And now the girl's been watching cartoons all last episode with a

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little cameo from David Tennant, I think, on the screen.

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But now she's watching TV that's, you know, either the world

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around her or the library.

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And so we see Donna appear in an ambulance and turn up at this

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sort of sanatorium or something.

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Isn't that interesting as well, because Rose puts in an appearance

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on various screens this year.

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But not this episode.

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Not this episode.

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And it's a Judaeo-Christian ambulance.

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It is, yeah.

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So I think you have to, you have to be careful of the, um, the

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girl watching Doctor Who and then deciding to switch to another

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channel while Doctor Who Wild Doctor Who is on.

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But luckily, only if it was Brock Rogers.

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But luckily, it's a soap opera and it's starring Catherine Tate.

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It's okay.

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It's all right.

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And I love that 1st section. of this episode.

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And I think that the jump cuts from section to section of Donna's

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experience work really, really nicely.

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And it's clear what's going on, but it's also slightly

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unsettling.

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I think the kind of in universe explanation for it, which becomes

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clear throughout the episode is that the computer's not

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functioning properly.

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And so it can only create a sort of TV like simulatrum of the real

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world.

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And so it doesn't bother filling in the bits between scenes, which

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we don't see because we're watching it on television.

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But Donna's aware that those things don't seem to have happened or

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don't seem to have made it to screen and she sort of remembers

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them.

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So it's another shortcut, like all the kids being the same.

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Yeah, yeah, it just saves memory.

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It's a special edition DVD where we cut out all the running down

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corridors, isn't it?

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That's right Apparently it came to Moffatt during the writing of

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it. that it wasn't initially the thing, that he wanted to tell a

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story about Donna.

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He didn't want to cut back to the library during that story, partly

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because Donna's story is meant to be taking place over a number of

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years.

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And so he's aware that he has to cut directly from scene to scene

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in Donna's life.

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And then having her comment on that fact means that she's in an

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artificial world because it's a world that obeys the rules that TV

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obeys. that it doesn't show you everything.

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It just shows you the salient thing.

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And it's interesting that Moffat is the one to do this because he

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is the writer and lead to the showrunner, most likely to subvert

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narrative and to not show things in the rice order and to jumble

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up what you're seeing on screen.

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Yeah.

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And what does it tell us about Donna?

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It kind of implies that what Donna wants is the quiet life, the

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husband, the house with 2 kids.

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And actually what she told us at the beginning of this series was

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she wants to run away and have adventures with the doctor.

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And so it's interesting and it's sort of saying that, Donna

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there's this duality to Donna, but in fact, she's saying one thing

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on the surface, but actually what she truly desires is something

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else.

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But every child, every teenage child that needs to escape their

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bobdignac mother will, you know, underneath just want clemency and

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safety.

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That's what Donna's mother says, isn't it?

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You just want to meet a man.

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Yeah, yeah. 1st of all, you've got to make that escape.

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And we've got this recurring image of Donna as a bride.

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So here and in the future, she's constantly in that white dress

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too.

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Well, she's not constantly.

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She occasionally in it to remind us about what's important to

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her.

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Yeah.

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You know, the other point about that is that River and the doctor

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husband and wife, and Donna has been saying all season, don't

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mistake me and the doctor for being a couple in a kind of the lady

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doff protest too much kind of way.

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And so it's interesting, but the moment she's kind of out of the

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library and out of consciousness, she imagines herself getting

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married.

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And I don't know that it's entirely her because Lee is, it becomes

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clear, a real person who's living in this same fake world with

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some sort of agency and stuff like that.

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So, you know, it's not just a reality that Dr. Moon has made up

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for her.

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He does introduce the 2 of them, but it is like a proper

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relationship, I think, as far as she's concerned.

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I had never thought of that before, that you've got a husband and

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wife in the real world and now Donna is married in the other

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world.

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I think the fact that they keep getting mistaken for a couple is

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obviously prefiguring the Dr. Donna thing at the end, like making

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it clear that they are in some way really, really closely

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related.

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And a jolly spin that we've unpacked the last 3 seasons and we

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don't need to do that again.

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Exactly.

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Two companions who generally were in love with the doctor and

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would have married him if they could.

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And finally, a companion who is not in love with him and would

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never want to marry him keeping on being mistaken as his other

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half.

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Yeah.

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No, I think what River provides is the wife and the companion now

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Donna, later, Amy, provides the girlfriend.

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And so there is this really, there's this triangle, but Moffatt

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loves a love triangle.

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But it's also sexualising the doctor.

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And Moffatt's the key voice in sexualising the doctor since, the

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girl in the fireplace.

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And to give him a wife and then to have a kind of slight tension

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between 2 female characters.

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All right, not very constructed in the kind of modern sense that

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we'd like, but it is that he sees the doctor as a sexual being.

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And he wants he kind of wants to remind us of that every so

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often.

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I think that is something Moffatt leans into, but I do think it's

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something that Russell Starr.

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Like, I think that Russell does start sexualising the doctor as a

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deliberate choice because he's a leading man because he's an adult

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and because he wants to tell drama about human beings.

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And in a way, Russell's doctor is more confidently sexy than

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Moffatt's doctor, I think. sometimes.

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And certainly that reaches its apotheosis in Matt Smith, who is so

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totally clueless about all of that sort of stuff.

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Yeah, do you think this is a reflection of the 2 showrunners where

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Russell is very confident in kind of his personality and sexuality

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whereas Motha is less confident in kind of putting himself forward

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like that and so does it through the character of the doctor, who's

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nevertheless still quite bumbling?

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Yeah, well, I think he's critiquing his own kind of masculinity, as

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we said last week.

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And so he has doctors who are unsure and incompetent.

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In series eight, he has Danny and Clara and Danny suddenly become

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sort of silly and 2nd guessing and finds it difficult to ask Clara

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out, even though he is in all sorts of other respects, a very sort

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of competent and confident person.

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And I think that that's how Moffat writes romantic comedy and the

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relationship between the doctor and river, not here, but once they

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actually know one another becomes a kind of screwball comedy of

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the type, that Moffat is incredibly good at rising.

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And of course, this season, series four, um, the doctor and

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Donna's relationship is a screwball comedy, that's how it's set up

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in Runaway Bride and then partners in crime.

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And to have a screwball comedy, you've got to have that freson

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between the characters.

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Carol Lombard and Clark Gable.

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No, it's truly, and she was called... tragic early death, but they

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were having an offscreen affair and it's the same with it isn't

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the same with Tracy and Hepburn, but the tension is still there

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you might say.

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But yes, all true great screwballs, again, Catherine Hepburn in

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Philadelphia story with Jimmy Stewart and, of course, Archie

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Leach.

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He's superb.

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Absolutely superb.

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There's another triangle.

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Yes, you're right.

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The reason this season works is because it's all about antecedents

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and proper stable filmic literary antecedents.

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I think that Donna's relationship with the doctor is properly

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complex in the way that a true relationship is full of

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contradictions and full of looking below the surface to see what's

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really there.

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And she starts this season saying, I'm not interested in a

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romantic relationship with you.

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And yet by she quickly becomes the person who can say the things

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to the doctor, but no one else can say it.

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Martha couldn't say that Donna couldn't say, and we have that

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beautiful scene at the end where she says, you know, are you all

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right?

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you know, because actually I'm all right too.

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And it's saying something completely different.

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And earlier in the season, doesn't she say something like, I don't

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know what, who else you've been travelling with, but this

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doesn't...

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Yeah, that's right.

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And but this doesn't fly with me.

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So we've got on one hand saying, I don't want anything more from

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you.

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But on the one hand, a much deeper relationship with the doctor

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than we've seen with the other two.

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And so that's what I mean by kind of properly complex.

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I like that.

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I like it.

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You're going with this, Johnny, because it's exactly the same way

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that screwball comedy developed through the 40s and 50s into the

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buddy movie and how the Hawks was progenitor of that.

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So he mostly made films about men who were great blokes and the

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only women's comedy he ever made was a need to lose gentlemen

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00:12:39.299 --> 00:12:43.919
prefer blondes, Marilyn Monroe and Jane Russell, which has some of

250
00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:45.720
the most iconic scenes.

251
00:12:45.779 --> 00:12:49.080
But he said, on I only make body movies, this just happens to be

252
00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:51.480
about 2 fellows that are being played by women.

253
00:12:51.539 --> 00:12:53.039
And it's the same thing we have here.

254
00:12:53.100 --> 00:12:55.500
This works because it's Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid.

255
00:12:55.559 --> 00:12:58.259
Do you see Hepburn and Tracy in this?

256
00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:00.779
Because they were they kind of signalled up front as being the

257
00:13:00.779 --> 00:13:01.980
inspiration.

258
00:13:02.039 --> 00:13:04.259
But it was also that was interesting because they were both queer

259
00:13:04.259 --> 00:13:09.179
identifying if only in private and outed in their later lives with

260
00:13:09.179 --> 00:13:11.220
a lot of complex stuff going on between them.

261
00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:12.899
And I do believe that she was in love with him.

262
00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:15.960
She certainly Hepburn certainly protested that she was, but there

263
00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:17.759
were a lot of layers to all these relationships.

264
00:13:17.820 --> 00:13:18.360
But absolutely.

265
00:13:18.419 --> 00:13:22.500
That was also a fraternity because you could argue in the same, in

266
00:13:22.500 --> 00:13:25.500
the same vein that the reason the Avengers, in the 60s work, just

267
00:13:25.500 --> 00:13:27.480
because he played the woman and she played the man.

268
00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:32.700
And it's so nice as well that Donna's particular subplot in this

269
00:13:32.700 --> 00:13:34.740
episode leans into her age.

270
00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:35.700
Yeah.

271
00:13:35.700 --> 00:13:38.220
He couldn't have played this subplot with Rose.

272
00:13:38.279 --> 00:13:42.000
It would have been a bit silly and a bit weird, whereas the fact

273
00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:45.659
that Donna is approaching middle age, means that you can play

274
00:13:45.659 --> 00:13:50.399
those kind of aspiring to a family kind of plots with her.

275
00:13:50.460 --> 00:13:54.240
I think she does the mother thing just spectacularly well.

276
00:13:54.299 --> 00:13:58.919
When she turns up at the playground and sends the kids off and the

277
00:13:58.919 --> 00:14:01.139
thing that she says to them is now don't fight.

278
00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:03.539
I just thought that was so perfect.

279
00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:07.679
There was just a little moment of real realism in that, which I

280
00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:08.519
thought was terrific.

281
00:14:08.700 --> 00:14:12.539
And cutting to the end of the episode when she realises that the

282
00:14:12.539 --> 00:14:13.379
children have vanished.

283
00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:16.559
That is such a portrayal of real anguish.

284
00:14:16.620 --> 00:14:18.779
Oh that is chilling. is chilling.

285
00:14:18.840 --> 00:14:21.659
I think that's nearly unwatchable, actually.

286
00:14:21.720 --> 00:14:26.700
And, you know, like I don't have children, so there's a limit to

287
00:14:26.700 --> 00:14:29.580
my ability to kind of empathise with that, but I think it is

288
00:14:29.580 --> 00:14:30.120
horrible.

289
00:14:30.179 --> 00:14:33.840
Oh, yeah, I think from my personal, everyone, every parent has had

290
00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:36.840
that experience of looking behind them and can't see the kids and

291
00:14:36.840 --> 00:14:40.440
you don't know where they are just for an instant and it's, it's

292
00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:43.740
it's really nicely played in the editing and the music and that

293
00:14:43.740 --> 00:14:47.399
terrible wail of anguish that Catherine Tatal is out in that

294
00:14:47.399 --> 00:14:47.580
state.

295
00:14:47.639 --> 00:14:48.360
And she relates herself.

296
00:14:48.419 --> 00:14:51.179
She keeps looking from one bed to the other, touching one bed to

297
00:14:51.179 --> 00:14:52.200
the other. like she can't stop.

298
00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:57.840
I think that here's another Moffat trope that we're spotting for

299
00:14:57.840 --> 00:15:03.120
the 1st time and we see it again in world enough in time, where

300
00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:08.580
the companion is put into a situation that apparently seems to

301
00:15:08.580 --> 00:15:13.200
last for years and years and years, and they're just kind of

302
00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:14.159
tortured.

303
00:15:14.220 --> 00:15:16.019
And I don't like it.

304
00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:18.179
Like I dislike it a great deal.

305
00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:24.419
And I think like you travel with a doctor because you like him and

306
00:15:24.419 --> 00:15:25.799
because you're having fun.

307
00:15:25.860 --> 00:15:29.639
And so doing that to the companions, I think makes them less

308
00:15:29.639 --> 00:15:29.879
real.

309
00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:33.299
We talked about the Hingecliffe era and pushing Sarah downstairs

310
00:15:33.299 --> 00:15:36.360
and blinding her and hypnotising her and all of those things she

311
00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:37.919
complains about in hand of fear.

312
00:15:37.980 --> 00:15:43.080
And we just kind of felt, or I remember us saying that the amount

313
00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:46.799
of kind of torment that she's put through makes her a less real

314
00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:47.279
person.

315
00:15:47.340 --> 00:15:51.240
Now, I don't think that happens to Donna here, but I think it's a

316
00:15:51.240 --> 00:15:54.480
mistake to be quite that cruel to a companion.

317
00:15:54.539 --> 00:15:58.559
Amy, Amy's baby dissolving into a pile of sick in her arm.

318
00:15:58.679 --> 00:16:03.419
Yes, similarly, similarly, um, a similarly questionable moment, I

319
00:16:03.419 --> 00:16:04.080
suppose.

320
00:16:04.139 --> 00:16:07.559
I suppose the difference with, the difference is the Donna, Donna's

321
00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:11.220
story here gets reversed, whereas Bill's does not.

322
00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:20.039
And even Amy's in the girl who waited. is kind of fixed in it.

323
00:16:20.100 --> 00:16:22.500
So she's put through 30 years of tormenting.

324
00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:23.159
Yeah, yeah.

325
00:16:23.220 --> 00:16:27.360
That's similarly reversed in a kind of science fictiony way at the

326
00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:27.539
end.

327
00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:31.019
So I think it, to me, it comes back to something you were saying

328
00:16:31.019 --> 00:16:35.700
before about what's Moffatt's attitude to death and what is the

329
00:16:35.700 --> 00:16:40.200
what is the virtue in showing death to be reversible or in this

330
00:16:40.200 --> 00:16:43.559
case showing anguish or torment to be reversible.

331
00:16:43.620 --> 00:16:49.500
That, to me, is what he does all the time, is put characters

332
00:16:49.500 --> 00:16:54.840
through a great deal, a great deal of anguish, and then flicks a

333
00:16:54.840 --> 00:16:55.980
bit of a switch and puts them back.

334
00:16:56.039 --> 00:16:57.899
So Merrick, isn't it?

335
00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:01.200
Do you think there's a sense here of it being a net positive for

336
00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:01.799
Donna?

337
00:17:01.799 --> 00:17:05.759
even though she's left with great anguish over having not having

338
00:17:05.759 --> 00:17:07.680
her children and her husband with her anymore.

339
00:17:07.740 --> 00:17:11.160
She's been given a life that's so far eluded her and she has full

340
00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:12.000
memories of that life.

341
00:17:12.059 --> 00:17:13.980
Except that it is fake.

342
00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:15.299
It is really fake.

343
00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:19.019
The children are not real and they even acknowledge that.

344
00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:21.839
So up to the point where Miss Evangelista reveals.

345
00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:22.920
Yeah.

346
00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:28.559
And because that isn't really 7 years, it is just a little while

347
00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:32.579
but all of the bits are being left out, you know, like she isn't

348
00:17:32.579 --> 00:17:35.819
in the way that Bill genuinely is stuck in that hospital for all

349
00:17:35.819 --> 00:17:38.339
that time, she isn't.

350
00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:40.559
But she's still, I don't know.

351
00:17:40.619 --> 00:17:43.799
I still think it is sort of going a little bit far.

352
00:17:43.859 --> 00:17:47.579
And it does give her, it does give her a grand love affair, which

353
00:17:47.579 --> 00:17:49.079
I really like, you know.

354
00:17:49.140 --> 00:17:51.960
And I'm sort of glad that it doesn't get picked up later.

355
00:17:52.019 --> 00:17:55.259
Like I'm happy that we don't see Lee again necessarily.

356
00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:58.380
But that bit where she says goodbye to him and I'll find you.

357
00:17:58.440 --> 00:18:01.859
And then there's that moment where he goes to call for her, but he

358
00:18:01.859 --> 00:18:03.420
can't because of his stutter.

359
00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:06.359
And that's classic press gang, isn't it?

360
00:18:06.420 --> 00:18:08.279
Remember Classic Morphin.

361
00:18:08.339 --> 00:18:13.259
Remember, Kenny has the Irish girlfriend who's a wrong number each

362
00:18:13.259 --> 00:18:16.559
time and they just keep missing one another and they never catch

363
00:18:16.559 --> 00:18:20.640
up just out of sheer silly coincidence and it's that again.

364
00:18:21.299 --> 00:18:25.200
I also like in that scene how the teleport only carries 3 people

365
00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:29.099
at a time, which is very much the arc in space, which is what

366
00:18:29.099 --> 00:18:30.059
Muppet loves.

367
00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:32.400
I always look at that and thinking you didn't think to build a

368
00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:34.019
teleport with more than 3 pads on it.

369
00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:36.720
I would have loved it if Lee had been intercepted by the time

370
00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:38.880
lords and sent back to the beginning of Skara.

371
00:18:38.940 --> 00:18:39.839
Oh, do we need?

372
00:18:42.900 --> 00:18:44.160
Thought experiment.

373
00:18:44.220 --> 00:18:48.359
Can you imagine this kind of, well, I call it a subplot?

374
00:18:48.420 --> 00:18:51.299
But really it's the main plot of Forest of the Dead being given to

375
00:18:51.299 --> 00:18:52.859
a companion in the classic series.

376
00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:55.380
Can you imagine Barbara in this kind of plot?

377
00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:56.099
Very much so.

378
00:18:56.099 --> 00:18:59.880
She could really, like, imagine having that kind of other life for

379
00:18:59.880 --> 00:19:03.660
a companion. before that Donna is, you know, is noted as being

380
00:19:03.660 --> 00:19:06.059
close to Sarah Jane, but I feel she's closest to Barbara.

381
00:19:06.119 --> 00:19:08.880
Absolutely It's what occurred to me all throughout watching it.

382
00:19:08.940 --> 00:19:11.460
I just kept having a vision of Barbara popping into my head and

383
00:19:11.460 --> 00:19:14.579
thinking, imagine if we had an episode with Barbara doing this

384
00:19:14.579 --> 00:19:15.059
kind of story.

385
00:19:15.240 --> 00:19:17.099
Space Museum 3.

386
00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:21.359
There are moments in the Crusades too, where she has.

387
00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:22.500
Yeah, well, that's what I was thinking.

388
00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:24.599
Crusades. where she plays a maternal role.

389
00:19:24.660 --> 00:19:26.460
You know, Donna loses her children.

390
00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:28.440
Barbara gets to unravel a cardigan.

391
00:19:28.500 --> 00:19:30.900
The thing's clearly an ocean.

392
00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:43.500
When we're talking about the truth of companions and the truth of

393
00:19:43.500 --> 00:19:46.500
interiority of characters.

394
00:19:46.680 --> 00:19:49.619
And I do like that the doctor is always left out by Moffatt.

395
00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:53.400
We don't get interiority until later, and I don't really enjoy it

396
00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:54.240
when we do.

397
00:19:54.299 --> 00:19:57.960
I would rather the doctor simply be the cypher of who we wanted to

398
00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:01.980
be when we grew up and that was always slightly misty.

399
00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:04.140
That was also sort of fiction mist, wasn't it?

400
00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:06.299
We never really got what that was.

401
00:20:06.359 --> 00:20:08.160
It's just a little spritzer of that.

402
00:20:08.220 --> 00:20:10.140
But Donna is us.

403
00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:14.220
And I really do love that those moments in the playground that you

404
00:20:14.220 --> 00:20:16.799
alluded to, Peter, that you pointed to are always with Miss

405
00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:20.700
Evangelister, who is now Picasso's weeping woman.

406
00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:23.819
So the black veil, it's no coincidence that she has the same

407
00:20:23.819 --> 00:20:25.079
arrangement of the face.

408
00:20:25.140 --> 00:20:28.559
It's a coincidence that Picasso's portrait was about a woman who

409
00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:32.700
had lost a child in childbirth, or there are many stories and

410
00:20:32.700 --> 00:20:34.980
narratives about it, and he painted at least 3 versions because

411
00:20:34.980 --> 00:20:39.000
the bloke was up for cash, you know, and it was stolen.

412
00:20:39.059 --> 00:20:41.099
It was strong and famously some years ago.

413
00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:43.920
So it was certainly in the news around at the time.

414
00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:49.920
But the sensitivity and the gentleness and the the porosity of his

415
00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:55.740
of his feminine protagonists and also the way that the narrative

416
00:20:55.740 --> 00:21:01.319
will seep through them and are not always, not always safely.

417
00:21:01.380 --> 00:21:05.460
I'm absolutely convinced that the evangelistic character is a nod

418
00:21:05.460 --> 00:21:06.539
to the Me Too movement.

419
00:21:06.599 --> 00:21:11.099
And even though this was written, what, 20067, that was already a

420
00:21:11.099 --> 00:21:12.299
time when we were getting news.

421
00:21:12.359 --> 00:21:14.579
It was out there.

422
00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:17.759
And Moffatt under, this is the thing that I find so frustrating

423
00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:18.480
about his writing.

424
00:21:18.539 --> 00:21:24.119
He really does understand women, and yet he will project them or

425
00:21:24.119 --> 00:21:31.380
put them onto this really Apollonian concept of the Athenian

426
00:21:31.380 --> 00:21:37.079
warrior, this remote princess of callous, humourous indifference.

427
00:21:37.140 --> 00:21:39.420
And I was like, just really, come on.

428
00:21:39.480 --> 00:21:43.019
But again, that's your proclivity and that's also a part of how

429
00:21:43.019 --> 00:21:45.960
you write and one of the aspects that you adore about women.

430
00:21:46.019 --> 00:21:51.119
But when she says, I really have an emotional moment when this

431
00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:53.099
character says this behind the veil.

432
00:21:53.099 --> 00:21:58.680
And he uses it again with his Silurian character, Vastra, further

433
00:21:58.680 --> 00:21:59.039
on.

434
00:21:59.099 --> 00:22:01.680
So this is this is something he's quite cogent with.

435
00:22:01.740 --> 00:22:05.160
I have the 2 things you need to see absolute truth.

436
00:22:05.220 --> 00:22:08.700
I am brilliant and I am unloved.

437
00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:15.059
Now, every child as a fan, every teen fan person had that absolute

438
00:22:15.059 --> 00:22:18.119
perspicacity when they realised they were the only ones in the

439
00:22:18.119 --> 00:22:21.240
room who got it and all the other kids were into sport or whatever

440
00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:24.420
else or playing in the playground, but we were the ones with our

441
00:22:24.420 --> 00:22:26.160
heads buried in a Terence Dix.

442
00:22:26.339 --> 00:22:31.920
And, um, yeah, I could talk about Louis C.K. or Joe Biden even, or

443
00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:36.240
you know, Jan um, Gonumeschi or Weinstein, of course, Jean-Claude

444
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:39.480
Arnaud, who was famously touching up a Scandalwegian princess, and

445
00:22:39.480 --> 00:22:42.539
the reason the Nobel Prize was delayed for 4 years because of what

446
00:22:42.539 --> 00:22:44.880
he was up to right at the time that this was being written.

447
00:22:44.940 --> 00:22:48.660
It's definitely feeling to me it's about the fragility of

448
00:22:48.660 --> 00:22:54.000
travelling or becoming a part of that which you've always aspired

449
00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:54.299
to.

450
00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:57.119
So for Donna, it's, I'm finally in the escape clause.

451
00:22:57.180 --> 00:23:00.420
And finally in that library that is now the living truth.

452
00:23:00.420 --> 00:23:04.200
And be careful what you wish for because you'll just come back to

453
00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:05.400
what you've missed out on.

454
00:23:05.460 --> 00:23:09.000
And for her, as you were saying, Johnny, it's about a family.

455
00:23:09.059 --> 00:23:14.400
For Miss Evangelista, it's about, yeah, when she says, I'm his

456
00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:18.119
practical everything, what are the words that she uses, and here's

457
00:23:18.119 --> 00:23:18.420
some.

458
00:23:18.420 --> 00:23:21.960
Anyway, when she describes her role with Steve Pemberton.

459
00:23:22.019 --> 00:23:23.400
It's true to me.

460
00:23:23.460 --> 00:23:25.559
She says, I'm his personal everything.

461
00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:26.460
And his personal everything.

462
00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:29.700
I don't think there's any doubt as to what that means. at all.

463
00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:31.980
And we conveil it and say, oh, no, no, that's not the case.

464
00:23:32.039 --> 00:23:32.339
Come on.

465
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:35.339
We know what Moffat is like and we know where he goes with these

466
00:23:35.339 --> 00:23:35.640
things.

467
00:23:35.700 --> 00:23:38.579
And he goes pretty dark. if you choose to have a look for it.

468
00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:42.779
The one thing that's coming out of this is that he gets what it is

469
00:23:42.779 --> 00:23:47.460
to be to be a child and to be and to be in a point of fragility

470
00:23:47.460 --> 00:23:50.640
and that's why I have real problems with what's going to come up

471
00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:51.480
in the next few years.

472
00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:55.259
But in this story, I feel he gets it absolutely right, and that's

473
00:23:55.259 --> 00:23:55.740
why I love it.

474
00:23:55.799 --> 00:23:57.000
Bravo Richard.

475
00:23:57.059 --> 00:23:57.599
Oh okay.

476
00:23:57.660 --> 00:24:00.059
Do you think Cal is like that as well?

477
00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:05.700
So Cal is in a world that's been created to kind of keep her happy

478
00:24:05.700 --> 00:24:07.980
and she has a fake father.

479
00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:12.119
And then during the course of the episode, She switches her father

480
00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:13.559
off inadvertently.

481
00:24:13.619 --> 00:24:19.619
And I think she starts to come to a realisation that, um, her

482
00:24:19.619 --> 00:24:20.579
world's not real.

483
00:24:20.579 --> 00:24:22.380
And it's a suspicion that she has.

484
00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:27.359
Remember when Miss Evangelista says or goes to say to Donna that

485
00:24:27.359 --> 00:24:30.839
this world is fake, it's VR?

486
00:24:30.900 --> 00:24:35.460
She's watching it on television and screaming out, no, no, no

487
00:24:35.460 --> 00:24:36.660
don't, you mustn't tell her.

488
00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:42.299
And so what happens to Cal is that that world that we see her in

489
00:24:42.299 --> 00:24:46.740
that domestic world that we see her in just falls away, and that's

490
00:24:46.740 --> 00:24:52.140
the point at which she goes to destroy the computer.

491
00:24:52.200 --> 00:24:55.440
That's when she puts it on self-destruct because she suddenly

492
00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:57.660
realised that it's not real.

493
00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:02.279
I think Kel's story is one of the innocence of childhood cannot

494
00:25:02.279 --> 00:25:02.640
last.

495
00:25:02.700 --> 00:25:05.579
You know, there's going to, you can't protect children from

496
00:25:05.579 --> 00:25:08.819
forever and there's a point at which everything's going to become

497
00:25:08.819 --> 00:25:09.359
very real.

498
00:25:09.420 --> 00:25:12.480
But then at the end of the story, something interesting happens.

499
00:25:12.539 --> 00:25:16.980
In that, at the very end of the story, Donna's 2 children return.

500
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:19.319
And she's now with them.

501
00:25:19.380 --> 00:25:21.000
And there's 3 beds in that bedroom.

502
00:25:21.059 --> 00:25:24.660
And River Song has seemingly taken the role of the parents.

503
00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:27.839
And so what seems to have been happening for Cal, is that she was

504
00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:28.980
in control of this world.

505
00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:32.880
She had undue responsibility for this world for someone so young

506
00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:37.200
and in her revised version of it, her improved version of it.

507
00:25:37.259 --> 00:25:42.299
She's kind of, given the parental role to somebody else, to, so

508
00:25:42.299 --> 00:25:45.180
but she, her innocence of that childhood can be maintained a

509
00:25:45.180 --> 00:25:45.539
little longer.

510
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:50.339
So when Mr. Lux describes the world that was created to house Cal

511
00:25:50.339 --> 00:25:52.980
a world where she could travel anywhere where she had all of the

512
00:25:52.980 --> 00:25:56.519
world's books, all of that, it's still described as being partial

513
00:25:56.519 --> 00:25:57.539
or incomplete.

514
00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:00.779
It's not a world that is in any way satisfying.

515
00:26:00.779 --> 00:26:03.720
And she's surrounded by people who aren't actually real.

516
00:26:03.779 --> 00:26:08.880
And then she suddenly got these, you know, 4000 people in there

517
00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:11.759
and, you know, the whole thing is breaking down.

518
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:16.380
And that's the reason why the world that's created is, you know

519
00:26:16.380 --> 00:26:18.299
not satisfying.

520
00:26:18.299 --> 00:26:20.400
Of course, that's not the role of a child.

521
00:26:20.460 --> 00:26:24.059
The child's not meant to be rescuing people from certain things.

522
00:26:24.180 --> 00:26:24.599
Yeah.

523
00:26:24.599 --> 00:26:26.579
So that's the broken bit.

524
00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:29.279
Like, yeah, in the story, it says the world's incomplete.

525
00:26:29.339 --> 00:26:32.220
But I suppose in the narrative, it's that girl's behaving in a way

526
00:26:32.220 --> 00:26:33.240
she shouldn't have to behave.

527
00:26:33.299 --> 00:26:33.960
Right.

528
00:26:34.019 --> 00:26:37.799
And so what we get at the end is a world with some other people in

529
00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:39.779
it that Cal is now.

530
00:26:39.779 --> 00:26:41.819
And that's something the doctor gives her.

531
00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:47.759
Like a Cal is now living with the crew, you know, with other Dave

532
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:51.839
and Proper Dave and Anita and Miss Evangelista and River.

533
00:26:51.900 --> 00:26:54.720
And so she has people to look after her.

534
00:26:54.779 --> 00:26:58.140
So it's a proper world now because it's peopled in a way that it

535
00:26:58.140 --> 00:26:59.039
wasn't originally.

536
00:26:59.460 --> 00:27:05.700
It's peopled with family too, which is this recurring motif in

537
00:27:05.700 --> 00:27:06.960
Moffatt's work.

538
00:27:07.019 --> 00:27:11.339
And the ending does confuse me, I must admit, because I'm not

539
00:27:11.339 --> 00:27:17.940
entirely sure why we have to leave River and her crew in the cyber

540
00:27:17.940 --> 00:27:18.240
world.

541
00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:21.900
Everyone else gets, I don't know, reconstituted from the flesh

542
00:27:21.900 --> 00:27:22.740
banks or something.

543
00:27:22.799 --> 00:27:23.940
You know, there's something.

544
00:27:23.940 --> 00:27:27.119
And it doesn't, it's not entirely clear to me unless I've missed

545
00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:27.599
something.

546
00:27:27.660 --> 00:27:29.279
What the difference is.

547
00:27:29.339 --> 00:27:31.259
Like if everyone else can be turned.

548
00:27:31.380 --> 00:27:35.279
Because they were uploaded at their point of death, whereas

549
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:36.599
everyone else was teleported in.

550
00:27:36.660 --> 00:27:40.200
Yeah, but it's a kind of science fiction conceit, isn't it?

551
00:27:40.259 --> 00:27:43.799
You know, it's a kind of slight, you know, it's not really very

552
00:27:43.799 --> 00:27:44.819
substantial.

553
00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:48.000
And so maybe the, maybe what you're saying, I guess I'm thinking

554
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:49.019
about this as you say it.

555
00:27:49.079 --> 00:27:52.259
Maybe the doctors made a deliberate decision to people that world

556
00:27:52.259 --> 00:27:54.299
for Cal.

557
00:27:54.359 --> 00:27:58.319
And though, I think, I think too, there is something about death.

558
00:27:58.380 --> 00:28:01.019
You know, the doctor cheats death, but he doesn't cheat it

559
00:28:01.019 --> 00:28:01.559
completely.

560
00:28:01.619 --> 00:28:05.819
And so those people are dead and they can't come back.

561
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:07.619
And Donna wasn't dead.

562
00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:10.680
Like her physical essence still existed.

563
00:28:10.740 --> 00:28:12.420
Miss Evangelist sort of says that.

564
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:15.839
And so she can be reconstituted at any time.

565
00:28:15.900 --> 00:28:17.940
But the others are dead.

566
00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:23.819
And so, you know, like the doctor still cheats.

567
00:28:23.819 --> 00:28:26.519
And there is that, like, we may as well talk about it now, that

568
00:28:26.519 --> 00:28:31.619
incredible final scene where Moffat kind of anticipates Day of the

569
00:28:31.619 --> 00:28:34.980
Doctor, with the Sonic Screwdriver.

570
00:28:35.099 --> 00:28:39.900
The idea that in all of the time that the doctors had a

571
00:28:39.900 --> 00:28:44.220
relationship with River, he's known that she will die here.

572
00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:47.160
And so he's had 100s of years to work out how to save her.

573
00:28:47.220 --> 00:28:49.980
And so the episode ends.

574
00:28:50.039 --> 00:28:53.880
Like the episode actually properly ends with the doctor and Donna

575
00:28:53.880 --> 00:28:55.559
you know, they put the diary down.

576
00:28:55.619 --> 00:28:58.680
They put the Sonic screwdriver down and they walk away and that's

577
00:28:58.680 --> 00:28:59.640
the end of the episode.

578
00:28:59.700 --> 00:29:04.619
And then suddenly you get the doctor doing this incredible heroic

579
00:29:04.619 --> 00:29:08.220
thing and actually becoming the doctor that River remembers.

580
00:29:08.579 --> 00:29:13.319
You know, Movin's doctor starts here, I think.

581
00:29:13.380 --> 00:29:14.940
And it's in that scene.

582
00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:17.400
And it's that thing that we talked about last week where Moffatt

583
00:29:17.400 --> 00:29:20.759
will have something hiding in plain sight and then suddenly you'll

584
00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:22.259
realise the significance of it.

585
00:29:22.619 --> 00:29:26.579
Suddenly the screwdriver means something different.

586
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:30.180
It originally meant that he had a close relationship with River.

587
00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:32.880
But now it means that he's worked out how to save River.

588
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:36.779
And River's voiceover and the doctor's heroic run and he dives

589
00:29:36.779 --> 00:29:38.279
down the thing and all of that.

590
00:29:38.339 --> 00:29:42.000
It's so incredible and it's that that gives him the confidence to

591
00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:44.819
you know, open the Tartar store with a, with a click of his

592
00:29:44.819 --> 00:29:46.920
fingers and then wander off to new adventures.

593
00:29:46.980 --> 00:29:48.119
It's incredible.

594
00:29:48.180 --> 00:29:49.559
I think it's absolutely incredible.

595
00:29:49.619 --> 00:29:54.299
And I do think that it would rob it if he just saved her, you know

596
00:29:54.299 --> 00:29:55.200
and she's alive again.

597
00:29:55.259 --> 00:29:57.240
You know, he saves her.

598
00:29:57.299 --> 00:29:59.579
She's saved, but they're all still dead.

599
00:29:59.880 --> 00:30:02.400
That ending is magnificent.

600
00:30:02.460 --> 00:30:05.819
And I think, again, it's the 2 it's 2 people that we mentioned

601
00:30:05.819 --> 00:30:06.059
before.

602
00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:08.819
It's Eros Lennon Murray Gold as well here.

603
00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:12.059
And that beautiful shot where we zoom in on the book and the

604
00:30:12.059 --> 00:30:12.900
screwdriver.

605
00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:14.339
And you're right.

606
00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:17.640
It's like we're comfortably waiting for the episode to end.

607
00:30:17.700 --> 00:30:19.740
We know it's about time for the episode the end.

608
00:30:19.859 --> 00:30:21.180
This is all the signals are that way.

609
00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:25.859
The doctor runs back into shot out of focus and it restarts.

610
00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:26.400
It's lovely.

611
00:30:26.460 --> 00:30:29.160
It's really good Murray's great, this episode.

612
00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:33.779
All of the music in the, or a lot of the music in the virtual

613
00:30:33.779 --> 00:30:37.380
reality thing, the notes are reversed, the sound of the notes is

614
00:30:37.380 --> 00:30:37.980
reversed.

615
00:30:38.039 --> 00:30:42.420
So you hear the attack after the note is played and it's really

616
00:30:42.420 --> 00:30:45.539
just sort of adds to that sort of slightly off putting thing.

617
00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:50.339
And it also uses the original doctor's theme in a really big way

618
00:30:50.339 --> 00:30:53.940
because this episode is so much about the doctor becoming

619
00:30:53.940 --> 00:30:55.200
something even greater.

620
00:30:55.440 --> 00:31:00.240
Is there a theme for Donner in there that's then used, with that

621
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:04.559
kind of that note, which goes, like that, and it's reused very

622
00:31:04.559 --> 00:31:08.339
heavily and turn left and journey's end, and it's almost like her

623
00:31:08.339 --> 00:31:08.880
motif.

624
00:31:08.940 --> 00:31:10.799
Yeah, I don't know what that is.

625
00:31:10.859 --> 00:31:13.500
Or it's like a trick that gold discovers for this episode and then

626
00:31:13.500 --> 00:31:14.640
kind of reuses.

627
00:31:14.700 --> 00:31:18.119
But I think it's appearing for the 1st time here and it is it is

628
00:31:18.119 --> 00:31:20.400
trying to make the music more off-putting.

629
00:31:20.460 --> 00:31:25.140
It's the library music with the chimes, you know, the little bells

630
00:31:25.140 --> 00:31:31.019
which is supposed to denote childhood in a way, made weird.

631
00:31:31.079 --> 00:31:33.720
There's some nice electric guitar in there.

632
00:31:33.779 --> 00:31:37.259
It sort of segues out of one of those Donner world sequences into

633
00:31:37.259 --> 00:31:40.380
the doctor and river and them running away from the Vashta

634
00:31:40.380 --> 00:31:40.920
Narada.

635
00:31:40.980 --> 00:31:42.599
It's electric guitar string.

636
00:31:42.660 --> 00:31:43.259
It's beautiful.

637
00:31:43.380 --> 00:31:47.579
In fact, whenever the little girl is watching that on television

638
00:31:47.579 --> 00:31:52.920
the music is cheesier than it is on our television version of it.

639
00:31:52.980 --> 00:31:57.000
It's like it's Murray doing television music for those particular

640
00:31:57.000 --> 00:31:57.900
scenes.

641
00:31:57.960 --> 00:31:58.559
It's great.

642
00:32:05.880 --> 00:32:09.779
Richard, that line you were talking about earlier about to seek

643
00:32:09.779 --> 00:32:12.299
absolute truth, you have to be brilliant and unloved.

644
00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:15.059
Does that mean that the happiness patrol seeks absolute truth?

645
00:32:15.900 --> 00:32:19.319
It's another one that really hits all the marks.

646
00:32:19.380 --> 00:32:20.759
So yeah, maybe.

647
00:32:21.059 --> 00:32:23.339
You can't call anyone pretty.

648
00:32:23.400 --> 00:32:25.140
You can't accuse them of prettiness in that story.

649
00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:31.259
That scene, which Moffat writes on the park bench about pretty and

650
00:32:31.259 --> 00:32:31.859
unloved.

651
00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:33.900
It has 2 brilliant lines of dialogue.

652
00:32:33.960 --> 00:32:34.440
There's that.

653
00:32:34.440 --> 00:32:36.480
And there's also Donna's classic.

654
00:32:36.539 --> 00:32:39.359
I'm not real, but I've been dieting.

655
00:32:39.420 --> 00:32:44.099
I'm just opposite ends of the spot and are both brilliant.

656
00:32:45.299 --> 00:32:49.140
That's a proper character moment in one line of diet, isn't it?

657
00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:52.440
Yeah, I was just wondering who she's saying that line too.

658
00:32:52.500 --> 00:32:54.960
Because the world is Donna's, right?

659
00:32:55.019 --> 00:32:58.380
So Donna's maybe Lee, they're the only real people in it.

660
00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:01.859
Who exactly in that world has found her to be brilliant and

661
00:33:01.859 --> 00:33:02.339
unloved.

662
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:07.079
Well, but don't you think that there are 4000 other people that we

663
00:33:07.079 --> 00:33:10.680
just don't see, like all of those people that have been saved by

664
00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:13.319
Cal living similar types of lives?

665
00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:15.299
I don't I don't know.

666
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:16.019
Maybe that's right.

667
00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:18.599
Maybe they are all living kind of similar lives and she flits

668
00:33:18.599 --> 00:33:19.500
between each of them.

669
00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:23.099
I had the idea that they were, as he says, stuck in the email.

670
00:33:23.160 --> 00:33:26.099
Like that they were kind of in some loop and that actually the

671
00:33:26.099 --> 00:33:29.039
world we saw was the only world, which was being actualised.

672
00:33:29.099 --> 00:33:30.000
But I don't really know.

673
00:33:30.059 --> 00:33:35.039
I thought we might be getting a little bit more of, oh, mind

674
00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:37.980
dropper or some other stories where, you know, there's definitely

675
00:33:37.980 --> 00:33:41.460
one that's doing Kurt Russell escaping from New York every year.

676
00:33:41.579 --> 00:33:46.319
I think the storyline about a character being in a VR world is a

677
00:33:46.319 --> 00:33:48.000
difficult one to get right.

678
00:33:48.059 --> 00:33:52.440
And so Moffat will try it again in extremis, I think.

679
00:33:52.500 --> 00:33:57.359
And I think it's much better here, where it's not the focus of the

680
00:33:57.359 --> 00:33:58.079
full episode.

681
00:33:58.140 --> 00:34:01.140
It's a kind of detour during the story into this.

682
00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:05.819
And for some reason it feels like much more, um, I don't know why

683
00:34:05.819 --> 00:34:09.960
but it feels much more fundamental to Donna that if this world is

684
00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:10.619
real.

685
00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:13.079
Like if Miss Evangelista says, look, this whole thing is wrong

686
00:34:13.079 --> 00:34:13.920
can't you see it?

687
00:34:13.980 --> 00:34:16.860
If you pay attention for 5 minutes, you'll see none of this adds

688
00:34:16.860 --> 00:34:17.099
up.

689
00:34:17.159 --> 00:34:21.840
For some reason, that seems much more important to Donna, um, than

690
00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:22.739
in extremists.

691
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:26.039
Because I think the risk with those stories is that you get to the

692
00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:29.460
end of them and they say, oh, it was all VR and you think, well

693
00:34:29.460 --> 00:34:30.960
why did you put me through 45 minutes of that?

694
00:34:31.019 --> 00:34:33.960
Like, that does hasn't occurred to be very consequential.

695
00:34:34.019 --> 00:34:38.099
So Moffat will go on to demonstrate that he has a real kind of

696
00:34:38.099 --> 00:34:41.099
boomer understanding of what computers are.

697
00:34:41.219 --> 00:34:45.960
And I was actually surprised by what a good job he did this time

698
00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:49.019
when he uses all his computer terminology.

699
00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:52.860
But I think the reason that this virtual world is successful is

700
00:34:52.860 --> 00:34:54.059
that it's television.

701
00:34:54.119 --> 00:34:58.500
And so he knows a lot about television and that's a virtual world

702
00:34:58.500 --> 00:35:01.619
that he's been in the habit of creating for sort of ages and

703
00:35:01.619 --> 00:35:02.039
ages.

704
00:35:02.039 --> 00:35:06.059
Actually, watching it, watching it again, talking about Boomer's

705
00:35:06.059 --> 00:35:09.059
understanding of technology, watching the kid watch television is

706
00:35:09.059 --> 00:35:12.599
a really weird thing because actually kids that won't watch

707
00:35:12.599 --> 00:35:13.440
television anymore.

708
00:35:13.500 --> 00:35:16.920
And so you watch, she's watching it on this big cathro television

709
00:35:16.920 --> 00:35:18.239
she shouldn't really be doing that anyway.

710
00:35:18.300 --> 00:35:21.840
And then the telephone is a rotary telephone.

711
00:35:21.900 --> 00:35:25.739
So she really has created the kind of retro world for herself to

712
00:35:25.739 --> 00:35:26.159
live in.

713
00:35:26.219 --> 00:35:30.300
Although I'm also confused about how far in the future this year

714
00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:31.380
51st century.

715
00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:32.519
Oh, the 51st century.

716
00:35:32.579 --> 00:35:36.840
So, yeah, so you really can't be her natural habitat, that it's a

717
00:35:36.840 --> 00:35:37.920
historical artefact.

718
00:35:37.980 --> 00:35:38.940
She has decided to live in.

719
00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:39.599
Yeah.

720
00:35:39.659 --> 00:35:44.219
No, well, I think that that Moffatt sets that virtual reality a

721
00:35:44.219 --> 00:35:51.300
few years before even 2008 because it's childhood memories of

722
00:35:51.300 --> 00:35:52.800
watching TV. you know.

723
00:35:53.159 --> 00:35:55.860
And it gives him the chance to do that.

724
00:35:55.920 --> 00:36:00.420
Like that incredible scene where Cal has activated the self

725
00:35:59.880 --> 00:36:03.719
destruct and the world's going to be destroyed and the doctor is

726
00:36:03.719 --> 00:36:07.199
trying to attract her attention and all of her robot toys are

727
00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:11.280
going crazy around her and stuff, I think is properly scary and

728
00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:11.519
stuff.

729
00:36:11.579 --> 00:36:16.800
And so I think that that the world, that VR world is set in the

730
00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:18.960
past for our benefit rather than... sure.

731
00:36:19.019 --> 00:36:20.820
I fear it's going to date badly.

732
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:23.760
Like if this is the Barbara Wright version of it, you know, made

733
00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:24.780
in 1965.

734
00:36:25.079 --> 00:36:29.340
We're watching a small child watch on this tiny little 405 screen

735
00:36:29.340 --> 00:36:32.639
and wondering why they've chosen that particular version of the

736
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:33.179
world to live.

737
00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:36.300
Yeah, but I think, I mean, all Doctor Who dates badly.

738
00:36:36.360 --> 00:36:41.039
And so the advantage of being up to date is that it's at least up

739
00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:43.800
to date to the people it's 1st broadcast too.

740
00:36:50.639 --> 00:36:56.880
So we start, I think we start to get a clear idea this episode of

741
00:36:56.880 --> 00:37:00.000
the relationship between River and the Doctor.

742
00:37:00.059 --> 00:37:04.739
And I think we get a better idea of what the doctor is from it as

743
00:37:04.739 --> 00:37:05.039
well.

744
00:37:05.099 --> 00:37:09.239
And this is a scene that I've mentioned actually for ages, like in

745
00:37:09.239 --> 00:37:12.599
previous episodes where we've been talking about David Tennant

746
00:37:12.599 --> 00:37:16.500
where it becomes clear that the tenant doctor performance is just

747
00:37:16.500 --> 00:37:18.780
a mask.

748
00:37:18.840 --> 00:37:22.920
Well, the doctor is the least real thing in any episode of

749
00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:23.579
Doctor.

750
00:37:24.179 --> 00:37:28.739
And Moffatt may be one of the 1st people to identify that or to

751
00:37:28.739 --> 00:37:29.699
name check it.

752
00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:33.719
So he, when he, when she's, when I think she calls him later on

753
00:37:33.719 --> 00:37:35.219
the unnamed god, doesn't she?

754
00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:39.059
And, you know, we've got a lot of old text references, not just

755
00:37:39.059 --> 00:37:41.280
biblical, but, you know, even going back to uh.

756
00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:44.940
Yeah, yeah, there's these, he's not meant to be.

757
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:46.079
He's a palmsist.

758
00:37:46.139 --> 00:37:48.840
He's constantly rewritten both by the actor and by the performance

759
00:37:48.840 --> 00:37:50.639
codes that are brought to each season.

760
00:37:50.699 --> 00:37:51.480
No, he's not real.

761
00:37:51.539 --> 00:37:55.199
He's just our punt up the river Styx.

762
00:37:55.260 --> 00:37:56.340
He's not.

763
00:37:56.400 --> 00:38:01.320
It's a lovely moment, and what I really get from it is, of course

764
00:38:01.320 --> 00:38:04.679
how flawed the doctor is, but you can see it on Tenant's face.

765
00:38:04.739 --> 00:38:08.699
And then how instantly he has to go, I just have to park this for

766
00:38:08.699 --> 00:38:12.119
a little while because I've got more important things that are

767
00:38:12.119 --> 00:38:13.199
happening right at this moment to me.

768
00:38:13.260 --> 00:38:16.440
But the way that he parks it is by going straight into the tenant

769
00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:19.199
doctor performance, you know, by saying silly things, talking

770
00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:22.079
about hairdryers, you know, like all of that sort of stuff.

771
00:38:22.139 --> 00:38:25.440
Like instantly he goes back into the shtick that we've been

772
00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:29.099
irritated by kind of on and off for the last few years.

773
00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:32.460
Me as well, I think.

774
00:38:32.519 --> 00:38:35.039
But that moment.

775
00:38:35.099 --> 00:38:39.420
And it makes it clear, I think, that they're married.

776
00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:44.940
And at the end, when the doctor's chained up and is unable to

777
00:38:44.940 --> 00:38:50.519
rescue River, he says, you know, he makes it clear that that was

778
00:38:50.519 --> 00:38:50.940
his name.

779
00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:53.820
Like he's an explicit Anita asks about it.

780
00:38:53.880 --> 00:38:56.340
You know, and the doctor refuses to answer.

781
00:38:56.400 --> 00:38:58.679
And we will find out later.

782
00:38:58.679 --> 00:39:01.079
See, I think there is wriggle room there.

783
00:39:01.139 --> 00:39:04.739
I think it is, I think that Moffatt's smart enough to leave enough

784
00:39:04.739 --> 00:39:10.260
kind of space in it in case things don't pan out the way he thinks

785
00:39:10.260 --> 00:39:11.219
it's going to pan out.

786
00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:14.760
But it is it is very, It is very much implied that that's the

787
00:39:14.760 --> 00:39:15.239
answer, yeah.

788
00:39:15.300 --> 00:39:19.800
I also think that the other thing is that when the doctor says

789
00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:24.119
that saving all these people is his job and her reply is what you

790
00:39:24.119 --> 00:39:26.280
mean I'm not allowed to have a career now.

791
00:39:26.340 --> 00:39:28.800
You know, like that's a married couple thing.

792
00:39:28.860 --> 00:39:32.099
And in fact, doesn't Mr. Lux call them on it?

793
00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:35.880
Doesn't Mr. Lux say all these people are going to die and you 2

794
00:39:35.880 --> 00:39:38.039
are standing there squabbling like an old married couple?

795
00:39:38.099 --> 00:39:39.719
And you kind of go, wow.

796
00:39:40.559 --> 00:39:41.099
That, what they are.

797
00:39:41.159 --> 00:39:41.880
Yeah.

798
00:39:41.940 --> 00:39:44.219
And that's where the wriggle room is because they both look at

799
00:39:44.219 --> 00:39:47.340
each other guiltily instead of River song going, yep, you've

800
00:39:47.340 --> 00:39:47.639
guessed it.

801
00:39:47.699 --> 00:39:48.539
Right, let's move on.

802
00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:52.920
You know, so there, I mean, I think that Moffatt's always got one

803
00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:55.679
eye on leaving all his options open.

804
00:39:55.739 --> 00:39:58.079
I think I think that's probably true.

805
00:39:58.139 --> 00:40:02.099
But I also think, too, that once it becomes a matter of

806
00:40:02.099 --> 00:40:06.599
speculation, and it will, you know, when she turns up again next

807
00:40:06.599 --> 00:40:09.420
season, what's the nature of the relationship between the doctor

808
00:40:09.420 --> 00:40:13.079
and river, that once that becomes a question, the only possible

809
00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:15.599
satisfying answer is that they're married.

810
00:40:15.659 --> 00:40:19.199
And it's a little bit like missy in series 8, who is missy?

811
00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:22.199
Is there a possible answer to that question apart from the one

812
00:40:22.199 --> 00:40:23.460
that Moffatt comes up with?

813
00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:27.239
one that wouldn't have just been absurd or uninteresting or

814
00:40:27.239 --> 00:40:27.539
whatever?

815
00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:31.139
And so I think they're very clearly playing it as husband and

816
00:40:31.139 --> 00:40:31.440
wife.

817
00:40:31.500 --> 00:40:34.739
And I'm glad that that was the eventual, you know, that they're

818
00:40:34.739 --> 00:40:38.760
not sort of spores or she's somewhere between the...

819
00:40:38.820 --> 00:40:39.179
Yeah, yeah.

820
00:40:39.239 --> 00:40:41.820
Any sort of science fiction explanation would have been so dumb.

821
00:40:41.880 --> 00:40:43.079
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

822
00:40:43.139 --> 00:40:44.579
It's a lovely well-done moment.

823
00:40:44.699 --> 00:40:47.579
But it does bring to the foreground the annoying thing of what is

824
00:40:47.579 --> 00:40:48.360
the doctor's name.

825
00:40:48.420 --> 00:40:49.139
Why do we care?

826
00:40:49.500 --> 00:40:54.420
It's the start of Moffat placing the doctor at the heart of the

827
00:40:54.420 --> 00:40:58.679
program and stories about the doctor being important, except that

828
00:40:58.679 --> 00:41:01.920
the doctor's at the heart of the program and the name of the

829
00:41:01.920 --> 00:41:05.579
program brings up the question, what is the doctor's name?

830
00:41:05.639 --> 00:41:07.980
That's right, but there's a reason that we haven't addressed this

831
00:41:07.980 --> 00:41:09.719
so far in that we're not interested.

832
00:41:09.780 --> 00:41:13.440
They're central mysteries of the program, which don't need to be

833
00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:13.800
talked about.

834
00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:15.360
But they can't be resolved.

835
00:41:15.420 --> 00:41:16.199
That's the other thing.

836
00:41:16.260 --> 00:41:17.159
There can't be an answer.

837
00:41:17.219 --> 00:41:17.880
Is it Gordon?

838
00:41:17.940 --> 00:41:18.960
I think it's Gordon.

839
00:41:19.019 --> 00:41:21.360
This is a lot older than Doctor Who.

840
00:41:21.599 --> 00:41:25.079
Are you touching Nathan when you say touching Nathan?

841
00:41:25.139 --> 00:41:26.280
No, he's not older than the Doctor Who.

842
00:41:26.340 --> 00:41:30.539
We just on Bondfinger, Johnny, you should come along for one of

843
00:41:30.539 --> 00:41:30.780
those.

844
00:41:30.840 --> 00:41:31.860
They're heaps of fun.

845
00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:34.019
That would remind me to watch a bonfoy weekend.

846
00:41:34.079 --> 00:41:36.360
No, we just do trashy 60s spy fine now.

847
00:41:36.420 --> 00:41:37.679
But we did an episode of The Prisoner.

848
00:41:37.739 --> 00:41:40.380
And of course, the whole McGuffin of that is why did you resign?

849
00:41:40.440 --> 00:41:40.920
He won't answer.

850
00:41:40.980 --> 00:41:42.059
They all know why he resigned.

851
00:41:42.119 --> 00:41:43.260
It's the most obvious thing.

852
00:41:43.320 --> 00:41:47.699
But there is that little point of, will you give away the defence

853
00:41:47.699 --> 00:41:50.039
of your persona?

854
00:41:50.099 --> 00:41:53.099
Will you drop your mask, Dr. Tennant?

855
00:41:53.159 --> 00:41:55.139
Will you reveal your truth?

856
00:41:55.260 --> 00:41:56.460
Will you just show us who you are?

857
00:41:56.519 --> 00:41:57.659
No.

858
00:41:57.719 --> 00:42:01.320
That is the reason that I go on because you don't know my history

859
00:42:01.320 --> 00:42:02.940
because you will not touch me.

860
00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:04.139
You see me every day.

861
00:42:04.199 --> 00:42:07.380
I'm in the intimacy of this idiot box, this idiot's lantern in

862
00:42:07.380 --> 00:42:09.719
your house, but no, you will not touch me.

863
00:42:09.780 --> 00:42:11.039
I remain inviolator.

864
00:42:11.099 --> 00:42:13.860
My boundaries are secure, as should yours be.

865
00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:17.460
And I think you can see that in the latest series with Jodie

866
00:42:17.460 --> 00:42:21.000
Whittaker is that, you know, we don't get enough of that kind of

867
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:21.539
distance.

868
00:42:21.599 --> 00:42:24.539
We don't get enough of the doctor saying, here is the space

869
00:42:24.539 --> 00:42:25.440
between you and me.

870
00:42:25.500 --> 00:42:27.599
She started to do it a bit this year.

871
00:42:27.659 --> 00:42:28.320
She has.

872
00:42:28.380 --> 00:42:28.920
She has.

873
00:42:28.980 --> 00:42:32.400
But I think you can extend that question about the, it's the so

874
00:42:32.400 --> 00:42:33.059
what question.

875
00:42:33.119 --> 00:42:34.860
So she knows the doctor's name.

876
00:42:34.920 --> 00:42:35.519
So what?

877
00:42:35.579 --> 00:42:36.179
What does that matter?

878
00:42:36.239 --> 00:42:38.639
I think also you can extend it to her being his wife.

879
00:42:38.699 --> 00:42:40.440
It's kind of, so what?

880
00:42:40.500 --> 00:42:42.239
Well, lots of people have spouses.

881
00:42:42.300 --> 00:42:45.659
What is actually interesting or dramatic about that scenario?

882
00:42:45.780 --> 00:42:48.719
It's playing against the same thing that Nathan was talking about

883
00:42:48.719 --> 00:42:53.219
there with, you know, the program is called Doctor Who.

884
00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:54.420
It's about the doctor.

885
00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:57.719
The reason that that's important is that the doctor has never had

886
00:42:57.719 --> 00:43:01.019
a wife over 30 something seasons.

887
00:43:01.079 --> 00:43:02.699
And so why does he have one now?

888
00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:05.039
So it's playing against the expectations of the program.

889
00:43:05.099 --> 00:43:05.880
That's why it's important.

890
00:43:05.940 --> 00:43:10.079
But I struggle to think about what is actually, yep, sure.

891
00:43:10.139 --> 00:43:13.199
So it's the absence of it, which has made it interesting up until

892
00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:13.739
this point.

893
00:43:13.800 --> 00:43:17.820
But once we've got it, what sort of, what stories does that open

894
00:43:17.820 --> 00:43:18.119
up?

895
00:43:18.179 --> 00:43:21.900
What is it that's any really any difference to any of the other

896
00:43:21.900 --> 00:43:23.880
relationships he's had throughout?

897
00:43:23.940 --> 00:43:25.019
How many years is it?

898
00:43:25.079 --> 00:43:27.539
I forget which point. how many years it is at this point?

899
00:43:27.599 --> 00:43:32.159
But I think that what's interesting is the number of stories that

900
00:43:32.159 --> 00:43:36.300
it doesn't close down, that Moffat actually will go on.

901
00:43:36.360 --> 00:43:39.719
Like Moffat gives the doctor a wife here for the 1st time.

902
00:43:39.780 --> 00:43:43.980
Something so unthinkable that in the 1980s, there was that fake

903
00:43:43.980 --> 00:43:44.639
out.

904
00:43:44.760 --> 00:43:46.920
Caves are Andrazani number one, the doctor's wife.

905
00:43:46.980 --> 00:43:47.460
Yeah, yeah.

906
00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:51.840
You know, there was a story that John Nathan Turner was thinking

907
00:43:51.840 --> 00:43:55.800
of having a story called The Doctor's Wife, and it was a ruse he

908
00:43:55.800 --> 00:43:58.920
was trying to discover, who was leaking stuff from the production

909
00:43:58.920 --> 00:43:59.639
office or whatever.

910
00:43:59.699 --> 00:44:01.019
Little known fact.

911
00:44:01.079 --> 00:44:03.239
That episode would have had Krow Timon as his wife.

912
00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:07.320
So absolutely unthinkable.

913
00:44:07.380 --> 00:44:10.019
Moffat does it and the show still carries on.

914
00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:15.480
And what it does open up is the sort of things that we see in that

915
00:44:15.480 --> 00:44:17.639
river song arc.

916
00:44:17.699 --> 00:44:23.340
I think that that scene where the doctor, where the doctor is

917
00:44:23.340 --> 00:44:27.900
forced to sit there and watch while she sacrifices her life and he

918
00:44:27.900 --> 00:44:31.679
has to sit there opposite that smoking chair for ages and ages

919
00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:32.699
afterwards.

920
00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:37.019
And then he has a relationship with his woman and he knows exactly

921
00:44:37.019 --> 00:44:41.280
how she's going to die and he's doing that while he doesn't know

922
00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:41.699
her yet.

923
00:44:41.760 --> 00:44:42.780
All of that's in his future.

924
00:44:42.840 --> 00:44:46.079
And I think that that's something that the show has never done to

925
00:44:46.079 --> 00:44:46.679
the doctor.

926
00:44:46.739 --> 00:44:51.900
The show very rarely properly gives the doctor something

927
00:44:51.900 --> 00:44:54.480
interesting to have feelings about.

928
00:44:55.019 --> 00:44:58.739
And here I think it really, really does it properly.

929
00:44:58.860 --> 00:45:04.860
And because I am a dedicated and professional podcaster, I watched

930
00:45:04.860 --> 00:45:08.820
the Husbands of River Song last night, and it's so resonant.

931
00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:12.900
Like the end of it is, you know, the end of that story is so

932
00:45:12.900 --> 00:45:13.380
good.

933
00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:16.260
And for a similar reason, I think.

934
00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:19.980
So are you saying that the relationship about the husband and wife

935
00:45:19.980 --> 00:45:23.519
relationship gives it added meaning that if it was Donna's death

936
00:45:23.519 --> 00:45:28.019
that he was seeing preemptively and knew that he had to have a

937
00:45:28.019 --> 00:45:30.960
whole season of Doctor Who with her before watching her die, you

938
00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:32.699
wouldn't have the same emotional resonance.

939
00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:35.880
And I don't think you can do that with a regular character as well

940
00:45:35.940 --> 00:45:37.320
with a companion.

941
00:45:37.380 --> 00:45:40.860
I think that her distance, river's distance from the program, her

942
00:45:40.860 --> 00:45:43.559
role as a sort of occasional guest star makes that possible as

943
00:45:43.559 --> 00:45:43.800
well.

944
00:45:43.860 --> 00:45:45.360
As our new brigadier.

945
00:45:45.420 --> 00:45:47.579
Yeah, well, and I love those characters too.

946
00:45:47.639 --> 00:45:51.119
I love when there are semi-regular cast members.

947
00:45:51.179 --> 00:45:52.860
I think Doctor Who can be very lonely.

948
00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:55.380
If it's just 2 people travelling around the world, none of whom

949
00:45:55.380 --> 00:45:55.980
have any friends.

950
00:45:56.039 --> 00:46:00.599
You know, I think that having a semi-regular, she lifts every show

951
00:46:00.599 --> 00:46:01.800
that she's in, I think.

952
00:46:01.860 --> 00:46:05.880
And, you know, Matt Smith's 1st show, the 1st one that he shoots

953
00:46:05.880 --> 00:46:09.119
is that one with River, the time of Angels.

954
00:46:09.239 --> 00:46:12.780
And I think it's so great and she absolutely lifts it.

955
00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:15.000
It gives him more interesting things to do.

956
00:46:15.059 --> 00:46:17.579
And he'll do that over and over again.

957
00:46:17.639 --> 00:46:21.840
He will make things that we might think are breaking changes to

958
00:46:21.840 --> 00:46:22.500
the program.

959
00:46:22.559 --> 00:46:24.239
He'll bring back galafre.

960
00:46:24.300 --> 00:46:26.519
He'll show us the doctor as a small child.

961
00:46:26.579 --> 00:46:30.900
All of these things that, you know, he'll we'll actually see the

962
00:46:30.900 --> 00:46:33.840
moment where the doctor and Susan get in the TARDIS at some point

963
00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:35.579
over the next few years.

964
00:46:35.639 --> 00:46:42.239
All of those things, he does, and it doesn't change what sort of

965
00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:43.260
stories we can tell.

966
00:46:43.320 --> 00:46:44.280
It doesn't break the program.

967
00:46:44.340 --> 00:46:49.320
It's sort of audacious and interesting, but it, you know, it lets

968
00:46:49.320 --> 00:46:51.780
us still do silly nonsense as well.

969
00:46:51.840 --> 00:46:55.500
Moffat's longevity as a showrunner means that he can return to

970
00:46:55.500 --> 00:46:56.039
those things.

971
00:46:56.159 --> 00:46:58.920
He can sort of pepper those things through, but he can return to

972
00:46:58.920 --> 00:46:59.760
it again and again.

973
00:46:59.820 --> 00:47:03.239
So, for instance, you have the river story being told over the

974
00:47:03.239 --> 00:47:08.099
course of 3 doctors and then ending up in the husband's river song

975
00:47:08.099 --> 00:47:10.199
and talk about the name of the doctor.

976
00:47:10.260 --> 00:47:13.260
He will return to that, of course, in the Matt Smith era in a big

977
00:47:13.260 --> 00:47:13.980
way.

978
00:47:14.039 --> 00:47:17.280
It will be part of the lead up to the 50th anniversary.

979
00:47:17.340 --> 00:47:20.519
But then he'll return to it in the very final scene that he writes

980
00:47:20.519 --> 00:47:24.119
for Doctor Who, which is Peter Paldi's regeneration, where

981
00:47:24.119 --> 00:47:28.139
virtually the last thing he says is, you mustn't tell anyone your

982
00:47:28.139 --> 00:47:30.300
name, except maybe children, they can hear it.

983
00:47:30.360 --> 00:47:33.480
I think I think I'm paraphrasing that, but something along those

984
00:47:33.480 --> 00:47:33.780
lines.

985
00:47:33.840 --> 00:47:39.360
And it's the fact that he is the showrunner for so long, that

986
00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:42.300
makes those things part of the fabric of the show, I think.

987
00:47:50.099 --> 00:47:54.059
All right, so it's time for picks of the week.

988
00:47:54.119 --> 00:47:56.880
So let's start with Johnny.

989
00:47:56.940 --> 00:47:59.820
Well, I have a very...

990
00:47:59.940 --> 00:48:03.059
I have a very quick and efficient pic of the week.

991
00:48:03.119 --> 00:48:06.539
I think that people should go to Wikipedia and remind themselves

992
00:48:06.539 --> 00:48:11.340
of the plot of the Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey Niffenega.

993
00:48:11.400 --> 00:48:12.480
I don't think you should read the book.

994
00:48:12.599 --> 00:48:15.420
I remember reading it years ago and I thought it was really

995
00:48:15.420 --> 00:48:19.679
uninteresting and cliched and not my thing at all.

996
00:48:19.739 --> 00:48:23.639
But Moffatt's in production or pre-production, I think, for his

997
00:48:23.639 --> 00:48:24.360
version of it.

998
00:48:24.420 --> 00:48:27.719
And he's made, and I think now is a good time just to remind

999
00:48:27.719 --> 00:48:29.280
yourself about what happens in it.

1000
00:48:29.340 --> 00:48:32.099
Spoiler alert you might know already.

1001
00:48:32.760 --> 00:48:34.260
True.

1002
00:48:34.260 --> 00:48:35.639
Peter?

1003
00:48:35.699 --> 00:48:37.619
I have 3 very quick pics of the week.

1004
00:48:37.679 --> 00:48:40.920
I think you should go and watch Tomb of the Cybermen to see the

1005
00:48:40.920 --> 00:48:44.400
original iteration of Miss Deluxe in Kaftan.

1006
00:48:45.659 --> 00:48:49.679
Some might say a more entertaining performance, but you know, I

1007
00:48:49.679 --> 00:48:52.139
think you should also go and watch relics from Star Trek Next

1008
00:48:52.139 --> 00:48:55.079
Generation to see maybe the original iteration of someone being

1009
00:48:55.079 --> 00:48:58.139
caught in a transporter buffer and living a life.

1010
00:48:58.199 --> 00:49:04.500
But I also think that as we were talking last week about 2 very

1011
00:49:04.500 --> 00:49:08.400
clever writers and their relationship, Stephen Moffatt and Russell

1012
00:49:08.400 --> 00:49:09.300
T. Davies.

1013
00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:13.559
I think read some of the novelisations that they did of the new

1014
00:49:13.559 --> 00:49:17.460
series, which came out a year or 2 back because at the time they

1015
00:49:17.460 --> 00:49:22.860
did a press tour, short-lived press tour, and it was just a joy

1016
00:49:22.860 --> 00:49:25.980
watching the 2 of them together in the same room, bouncing off

1017
00:49:25.980 --> 00:49:28.800
each other, and clearly just having the greatest of professional

1018
00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:29.820
respect for each other's work.

1019
00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:33.480
My pick of the week doesn't have that much to do with this

1020
00:49:33.480 --> 00:49:34.380
although it kind of does.

1021
00:49:34.440 --> 00:49:37.019
I really like what Naomi Klein's just written on Trump.

1022
00:49:37.619 --> 00:49:41.639
And it does kind of reflect when we were talking about how an

1023
00:49:41.639 --> 00:49:43.980
isolated child can behave in their own world.

1024
00:49:44.460 --> 00:49:48.239
I think you know where I'm going with that, but she is also a

1025
00:49:48.239 --> 00:49:54.000
really good writer on the misappropriation of power, both taken

1026
00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:58.980
away from women and the misuse of power when you have it.

1027
00:49:59.099 --> 00:50:03.119
And maybe that's maybe that's a bit broad for this story, but it

1028
00:50:03.119 --> 00:50:06.000
triggered those thoughts in me, so maybe other people did as

1029
00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:06.719
well.

1030
00:50:06.840 --> 00:50:08.099
Now, I really like what she's written.

1031
00:50:08.159 --> 00:50:10.800
You can just look it up online and, you know, just read a blog on

1032
00:50:10.800 --> 00:50:10.920
it.

1033
00:50:10.980 --> 00:50:11.760
You don't have to buy the book.

1034
00:50:11.820 --> 00:50:13.380
I just found it quite interesting.

1035
00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:16.920
And there were parallels in this story for me on how it feels to

1036
00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:21.539
be a child and be alone and that can produce both greatness and

1037
00:50:21.539 --> 00:50:24.539
empathy and it can also produce the political situation we're in

1038
00:50:24.539 --> 00:50:24.840
right now.

1039
00:50:24.900 --> 00:50:28.199
And Richard does, in fact, turn into, like, this episode of

1040
00:50:28.199 --> 00:50:30.539
meditation on death because I'd be on board with that.

1041
00:50:31.199 --> 00:50:35.159
Well, that is death walks with us at every moment of life.

1042
00:50:35.219 --> 00:50:37.619
I think the Moffat's pretty clear on that as well.

1043
00:50:37.679 --> 00:50:41.039
Maybe he's saying turn the TV off and go and play in the park.

1044
00:50:41.099 --> 00:50:44.460
But then you'll also find out that you take your TV with you.

1045
00:50:44.519 --> 00:50:45.659
It's in your head all the time.

1046
00:50:46.260 --> 00:50:49.320
So mine does have something to do with this story.

1047
00:50:49.440 --> 00:50:53.400
TARDAS A Rutatorum by L. Sandafart, was obviously a years-long

1048
00:50:53.400 --> 00:50:56.760
project covering all of Doctor Who up until the end of the Matt

1049
00:50:56.760 --> 00:50:57.719
Smith era.

1050
00:50:57.780 --> 00:51:02.940
And because of the way that the River song story was told.

1051
00:51:03.179 --> 00:51:08.699
She mixed up the order of the River Song episode.

1052
00:51:08.760 --> 00:51:12.179
So they would appear out of sequence chronologically as she was

1053
00:51:12.179 --> 00:51:13.739
going through the rest of the program.

1054
00:51:13.800 --> 00:51:18.840
And so the very, very last Tartar Arudatorium entry was the

1055
00:51:18.840 --> 00:51:22.500
silence in the Library Forest of the Dead review, not a review

1056
00:51:22.500 --> 00:51:24.900
essay, and not an essay.

1057
00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:27.960
It's exactly 100,000 words long.

1058
00:51:28.019 --> 00:51:33.480
And to give you some idea, Pride and Prejudice is 122,000 words

1059
00:51:33.480 --> 00:51:33.960
long.

1060
00:51:34.019 --> 00:51:39.719
So it's novel length and it tells the entire story of Doctor Who

1061
00:51:39.719 --> 00:51:44.400
as she's discovered it through her travel through all of that

1062
00:51:44.400 --> 00:51:48.179
entire era of Doctor Who, the 50 years of it, that she covers in

1063
00:51:48.179 --> 00:51:48.960
that 1st run.

1064
00:51:49.019 --> 00:51:50.699
It's really incredible.

1065
00:51:50.760 --> 00:51:52.139
It's well worth a read.

1066
00:51:52.199 --> 00:51:55.500
And if you don't have time to read all of Tatasu Rudatorum and

1067
00:51:55.500 --> 00:51:56.159
maybe you don't.

1068
00:51:56.219 --> 00:51:58.139
You may have time to read that.

1069
00:51:58.199 --> 00:51:59.760
It's really an extraordinary piece of work.

1070
00:52:24.960 --> 00:52:28.559
Well, there, listener, that was more emotionally draining than one

1071
00:52:28.559 --> 00:52:31.320
of our normal episodes, so next week, we're planning to go on

1072
00:52:31.320 --> 00:52:31.739
holiday.

1073
00:52:32.159 --> 00:52:37.800
Not Florana, not Okinos, not Appalapochia, not Zine 4, and not

1074
00:52:37.800 --> 00:52:38.820
Orphan 55.

1075
00:52:39.119 --> 00:52:42.840
Instead, we'll be taking a lovely trip to a diamond planet called

1076
00:52:42.840 --> 00:52:43.920
Midnight.

1077
00:52:43.980 --> 00:52:45.119
We'll see you there.

1078
00:52:45.179 --> 00:52:48.539
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1079
00:52:48.539 --> 00:52:51.000
and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook

1080
00:52:51.000 --> 00:52:55.199
at FTE Podcast on Twitter, and on our website, Flightthrough

1081
00:52:55.199 --> 00:52:58.619
Entirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts

1082
00:52:58.619 --> 00:53:00.840
Bondfinger, and Jody into Terra.

1083
00:53:00.900 --> 00:53:02.820
Where can people find you, Johnny?

1084
00:53:02.880 --> 00:53:06.659
Find me on Twitter at Johnny Spandrel and go and read my blog at

1085
00:53:06.659 --> 00:53:07.860
RandomHooness.com.

1086
00:53:07.920 --> 00:53:08.579
Brilliant.

1087
00:53:08.639 --> 00:53:11.820
So until next time, sweet dreams, everyone.

1088
00:53:11.880 --> 00:53:14.400
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1089
00:53:14.460 --> 00:53:15.300
Good night.

1090
00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:16.019
Good night.

1091
00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:16.800
Good then.

1092
00:53:19.920 --> 00:53:22.440
That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter

1093
00:53:22.440 --> 00:53:24.360
Griffith, Johnny Spandrel, and Richard Stone.

1094
00:53:24.420 --> 00:53:27.179
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings Performance by Jane

1095
00:53:27.179 --> 00:53:27.960
Orberg.

1096
00:53:28.019 --> 00:53:29.880
This episode, our new brigadier.

1097
00:53:29.940 --> 00:53:32.880
It was recorded on the 23rd of February 2020 and released on the

1098
00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:33.780
10th of May.

1099
00:53:34.139 --> 00:53:38.460
And from all of us, congratulations to Father of the podcast

1100
00:53:38.460 --> 00:53:42.059
Brendan, and his new husband, Rod, on their wedding last Friday.

1101
00:53:42.119 --> 00:53:46.139
After all, love in all its forms is the most powerful weapon we

1102
00:53:46.139 --> 00:53:50.340
have, because love is a form of hope, and like hope, love abides

1103
00:53:50.340 --> 00:53:51.300
in the face of everything.

1104
00:53:52.380 --> 00:53:54.360
A 1000 words.

1105
00:53:54.420 --> 00:53:54.719
Wow.

1106
00:53:54.780 --> 00:53:57.119
Certainly better than Pride and Prejudice.

1107
00:53:57.179 --> 00:53:59.219
Oh, yeah.

1108
00:53:59.940 --> 00:54:01.739
No zombies.

1109
00:54:01.860 --> 00:54:03.659
Shall I just go and strangle a dog?

1110
00:54:03.719 --> 00:54:04.679
No, I think that was okay.

1111
00:54:04.739 --> 00:54:05.940
Lived a full life.

1112
00:54:09.000 --> 00:54:11.460
People said the same about Dodo.

1113
00:54:11.519 --> 00:54:13.440
She was just strangle her.

1114
00:54:13.500 --> 00:54:15.599
She lived, you know, a full life for 19 episodes.

1115
00:54:15.659 --> 00:54:18.539
I suddenly realised this week that Dodo and Ace are the same

1116
00:54:18.539 --> 00:54:18.780
character.

1117
00:54:18.840 --> 00:54:20.880
Where'd you get that?

1118
00:54:20.880 --> 00:54:22.619
I like it, but very much.

1119
00:54:22.679 --> 00:54:23.639
Oh, they're there.

1120
00:54:23.639 --> 00:54:25.559
They're cockney orphans.

1121
00:54:25.619 --> 00:54:26.639
They're straight kids.

1122
00:54:26.699 --> 00:54:27.840
Both called Dorothea.

1123
00:54:27.900 --> 00:54:28.980
I've called Dorothy.

1124
00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:31.139
Oh, no, so...

1125
00:54:31.199 --> 00:54:32.579
I wonder if that was deliberate.

1126
00:54:34.860 --> 00:54:36.360
Go away.

1127
00:54:36.420 --> 00:54:37.440
Nuh-uh.

1128
00:54:37.500 --> 00:54:38.699
No.

1129
00:54:38.760 --> 00:54:40.559
I mean I really want that to be true.

1130
00:54:40.619 --> 00:54:42.659
But I'm not seeing it.

1131
00:54:42.719 --> 00:54:46.260
I'm remembering Sophie Eldred's essay, well, piece she wrote for

1132
00:54:46.260 --> 00:54:49.079
Fanderson when no one had ever heard of him, and the show was

1133
00:54:49.079 --> 00:54:50.639
forgotten, even the fans weren't watching it.

1134
00:54:50.699 --> 00:54:52.500
But she was a member of Fanderson.

1135
00:54:52.500 --> 00:54:54.179
It's, I'm mean, sharing it. great.

1136
00:54:54.239 --> 00:54:56.940
Nothing up in your class being on Kelly.

1137
00:54:57.000 --> 00:54:59.400
Your Sophie Aldrin impersonation is uncanny.

1138
00:54:59.519 --> 00:55:02.579
Well, you saw that DVD, which is going to run much more up a

1139
00:55:02.579 --> 00:55:03.059
middle class.

1140
00:55:03.119 --> 00:55:05.340
Yeah, she does that.

1141
00:55:05.400 --> 00:55:08.280
Actually, she does actually say it on one of the fucking Indians.

1142
00:55:08.340 --> 00:55:10.380
I've sort of hated her forever because...

1143
00:55:10.500 --> 00:55:13.380
Oh, she's a shallow, silly girl.

1144
00:55:13.440 --> 00:55:16.320
But she, although therefore, a lot of fun to play with.

1145
00:55:16.679 --> 00:55:21.300
Yeah, she, she, um, it was, that's why the Carmos stories are

1146
00:55:21.300 --> 00:55:23.219
great because they are just fans making it for themselves.

1147
00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:26.760
But I wouldn't be surprised Carl would probably be dark and evil

1148
00:55:26.760 --> 00:55:27.960
enough to do it.

1149
00:55:28.019 --> 00:55:31.320
Let me let me can we just go through this incredibly quickly

1150
00:55:31.320 --> 00:55:35.219
before the dog barks again. because she hasn't been fed and it's 4

1151
00:55:35.219 --> 00:55:36.539
and that's why she's barking.

1152
00:55:36.599 --> 00:55:37.199
She won't stop.

1153
00:55:37.260 --> 00:55:39.239
Yeah, it's nearly five.

1154
00:55:39.300 --> 00:55:39.900
Okay.