WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:39:28 1 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:47.520 Hello, dear Lisa, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast, doing an array of our usual tropes from 2021 to 2024, but just a year or 2 early. 2 00:00:47.579 --> 00:00:49.079 I'm Nathan. 3 00:00:49.140 --> 00:00:50.159 I'm Peter. 4 00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:50.820 I'm Johnny. 5 00:00:50.880 --> 00:00:54.179 And I'm Picasso's Nicked, weeping woman for this one. 6 00:00:54.899 --> 00:00:59.820 Well, it's been a whole week, but somehow it seems like no time has passed at all. 7 00:00:59.939 --> 00:01:05.579 On the upside, that Dr. Moon seems nice and we have a very handsome and attentive new husband. 8 00:01:05.640 --> 00:01:11.879 In fact, it doesn't even occur to us to worry about what's happening to the doctor in the forest of the dead. 9 00:01:30.659 --> 00:01:36.239 So, we had a cliffhanger last week that we were all pretty on board with. 10 00:01:36.299 --> 00:01:40.260 How do we feel about the resolution of the cliffhanger this week? 11 00:01:40.920 --> 00:01:44.400 Can I say I was confused by the squareness gun? 12 00:01:44.519 --> 00:01:49.680 For years, they went off for years, but while I was going on, I was thinking, that's Jack's gun. 13 00:01:49.739 --> 00:01:51.060 Why does she have Jack's gun? 14 00:01:51.180 --> 00:01:53.280 I thought, maybe she's Jack. 15 00:01:53.340 --> 00:01:55.439 But it is the 51st century. 16 00:01:55.500 --> 00:01:56.219 Yes. 17 00:01:56.280 --> 00:02:03.900 Well, I think the implication is that she's been on the Tartars and found it kind of hanging around in a storage roundle or something. 18 00:02:03.959 --> 00:02:09.060 Does the doctor steal that off Jack in the episode or not in the doctor dances, I think? 19 00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:10.020 he pocket it? 20 00:02:10.080 --> 00:02:11.939 I think he pockets it and she finds it. 21 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:13.259 Oh, okay. 22 00:02:13.259 --> 00:02:19.500 Isn't it foolish of River not being able to know that you can reverse the settings and close up those gaps so the astronaut maybe can't. 23 00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:24.180 It is a great effect, isn't it? 24 00:02:24.240 --> 00:02:28.860 And particularly this time where the hole is kind of on an angle. 25 00:02:29.879 --> 00:02:38.219 So, and I was just imagining all of the set people, all of the carpenters and stuff, soaring holes in the walls and stuff like that. hating mock. 26 00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:40.620 Is that because River Song shoots from the hip? 27 00:02:41.159 --> 00:02:54.479 I was so pleased to see that the TARDIS teleport that we actually see right back in an unearthly child, those 4 horizontal roundels behind the monitor that you also have in the Pertwear era. 28 00:02:54.539 --> 00:02:58.979 It works perfectly well, and Susan could have easily been rescued at any point. 29 00:02:59.039 --> 00:03:00.840 He could have sold so many problems, really. 30 00:03:00.900 --> 00:03:01.680 At any point. 31 00:03:01.740 --> 00:03:03.599 It's always been working, tells us everything. 32 00:03:04.020 --> 00:03:09.599 So we don't really pick up on what's going on in the library, kind of straight away, do we? 33 00:03:09.659 --> 00:03:12.419 It's a little while in or did I dream that? 34 00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:16.800 There's a little bit of sort of running around with nothing happening, but it's mainly focussed on Donna. 35 00:03:16.860 --> 00:03:21.900 But we get to Donna by having the girl watching television. 36 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:29.819 And now the girl's been watching cartoons all last episode with a little cameo from David Tennant, I think, on the screen. 37 00:03:29.939 --> 00:03:36.060 But now she's watching TV that's, you know, either the world around her or the library. 38 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:42.840 And so we see Donna appear in an ambulance and turn up at this sort of sanatorium or something. 39 00:03:42.900 --> 00:03:47.280 Isn't that interesting as well, because Rose puts in an appearance on various screens this year. 40 00:03:47.340 --> 00:03:48.659 But not this episode. 41 00:03:48.719 --> 00:03:49.860 Not this episode. 42 00:03:49.919 --> 00:03:52.439 And it's a Judaeo-Christian ambulance. 43 00:03:52.500 --> 00:03:53.879 It is, yeah. 44 00:03:53.939 --> 00:04:03.240 So I think you have to, you have to be careful of the, um, the girl watching Doctor Who and then deciding to switch to another channel while Doctor Who Wild Doctor Who is on. 45 00:04:03.300 --> 00:04:06.300 But luckily, only if it was Brock Rogers. 46 00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:09.539 But luckily, it's a soap opera and it's starring Catherine Tate. 47 00:04:09.659 --> 00:04:10.080 It's okay. 48 00:04:10.139 --> 00:04:10.800 It's all right. 49 00:04:10.860 --> 00:04:14.340 And I love that 1st section. of this episode. 50 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:21.600 And I think that the jump cuts from section to section of Donna's experience work really, really nicely. 51 00:04:21.660 --> 00:04:26.519 And it's clear what's going on, but it's also slightly unsettling. 52 00:04:26.759 --> 00:04:34.500 I think the kind of in universe explanation for it, which becomes clear throughout the episode is that the computer's not functioning properly. 53 00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:41.459 And so it can only create a sort of TV like simulatrum of the real world. 54 00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:49.680 And so it doesn't bother filling in the bits between scenes, which we don't see because we're watching it on television. 55 00:04:49.740 --> 00:04:56.819 But Donna's aware that those things don't seem to have happened or don't seem to have made it to screen and she sort of remembers them. 56 00:04:56.879 --> 00:04:59.579 So it's another shortcut, like all the kids being the same. 57 00:04:59.699 --> 00:05:01.379 Yeah, yeah, it just saves memory. 58 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:05.939 It's a special edition DVD where we cut out all the running down corridors, isn't it? 59 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:16.860 That's right Apparently it came to Moffatt during the writing of it. that it wasn't initially the thing, that he wanted to tell a story about Donna. 60 00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:24.180 He didn't want to cut back to the library during that story, partly because Donna's story is meant to be taking place over a number of years. 61 00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:28.800 And so he's aware that he has to cut directly from scene to scene in Donna's life. 62 00:05:28.800 --> 00:05:43.560 And then having her comment on that fact means that she's in an artificial world because it's a world that obeys the rules that TV obeys. that it doesn't show you everything. 63 00:05:43.620 --> 00:05:45.540 It just shows you the salient thing. 64 00:05:45.660 --> 00:05:59.339 And it's interesting that Moffat is the one to do this because he is the writer and lead to the showrunner, most likely to subvert narrative and to not show things in the rice order and to jumble up what you're seeing on screen. 65 00:05:59.399 --> 00:06:00.000 Yeah. 66 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:02.819 And what does it tell us about Donna? 67 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:09.600 It kind of implies that what Donna wants is the quiet life, the husband, the house with 2 kids. 68 00:06:09.660 --> 00:06:14.579 And actually what she told us at the beginning of this series was she wants to run away and have adventures with the doctor. 69 00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:24.120 And so it's interesting and it's sort of saying that, Donna, there's this duality to Donna, but in fact, she's saying one thing on the surface, but actually what she truly desires is something else. 70 00:06:24.180 --> 00:06:34.980 But every child, every teenage child that needs to escape their bobdignac mother will, you know, underneath just want clemency and safety. 71 00:06:34.980 --> 00:06:37.439 That's what Donna's mother says, isn't it? 72 00:06:37.500 --> 00:06:38.579 You just want to meet a man. 73 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:41.399 Yeah, yeah. 1st of all, you've got to make that escape. 74 00:06:41.459 --> 00:06:44.100 And we've got this recurring image of Donna as a bride. 75 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:48.240 So here and in the future, she's constantly in that white dress too. 76 00:06:48.300 --> 00:06:49.379 Well, she's not constantly. 77 00:06:49.439 --> 00:06:52.259 She occasionally in it to remind us about what's important to her. 78 00:06:52.319 --> 00:06:52.920 Yeah. 79 00:06:52.920 --> 00:07:06.660 You know, the other point about that is that River and the doctor, husband and wife, and Donna has been saying all season, don't mistake me and the doctor for being a couple in a kind of the lady doff protest too much kind of way. 80 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:13.980 And so it's interesting, but the moment she's kind of out of the library and out of consciousness, she imagines herself getting married. 81 00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:26.279 And I don't know that it's entirely her because Lee is, it becomes clear, a real person who's living in this same fake world with some sort of agency and stuff like that. 82 00:07:26.339 --> 00:07:31.920 So, you know, it's not just a reality that Dr. Moon has made up for her. 83 00:07:31.980 --> 00:07:39.000 He does introduce the 2 of them, but it is like a proper relationship, I think, as far as she's concerned. 84 00:07:39.180 --> 00:07:47.399 I had never thought of that before, that you've got a husband and wife in the real world and now Donna is married in the other world. 85 00:07:47.459 --> 00:08:00.660 I think the fact that they keep getting mistaken for a couple is obviously prefiguring the Dr. Donna thing at the end, like making it clear that they are in some way really, really closely related. 86 00:08:00.779 --> 00:08:04.800 And a jolly spin that we've unpacked the last 3 seasons and we don't need to do that again. 87 00:08:04.860 --> 00:08:06.300 Exactly. 88 00:08:06.360 --> 00:08:10.319 Two companions who generally were in love with the doctor and would have married him if they could. 89 00:08:10.379 --> 00:08:16.740 And finally, a companion who is not in love with him and would never want to marry him keeping on being mistaken as his other half. 90 00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:17.939 Yeah. 91 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:25.139 No, I think what River provides is the wife and the companion now, Donna, later, Amy, provides the girlfriend. 92 00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:30.779 And so there is this really, there's this triangle, but Moffatt loves a love triangle. 93 00:08:30.839 --> 00:08:32.700 But it's also sexualising the doctor. 94 00:08:32.759 --> 00:08:38.159 And Moffatt's the key voice in sexualising the doctor since, the girl in the fireplace. 95 00:08:38.220 --> 00:08:44.940 And to give him a wife and then to have a kind of slight tension between 2 female characters. 96 00:08:45.000 --> 00:08:53.039 All right, not very constructed in the kind of modern sense that we'd like, but it is that he sees the doctor as a sexual being. 97 00:08:53.100 --> 00:08:57.000 And he wants he kind of wants to remind us of that every so often. 98 00:08:57.059 --> 00:09:01.320 I think that is something Moffatt leans into, but I do think it's something that Russell Starr. 99 00:09:01.379 --> 00:09:13.200 Like, I think that Russell does start sexualising the doctor as a deliberate choice because he's a leading man because he's an adult and because he wants to tell drama about human beings. 100 00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:22.259 And in a way, Russell's doctor is more confidently sexy than Moffatt's doctor, I think. sometimes. 101 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:30.539 And certainly that reaches its apotheosis in Matt Smith, who is so totally clueless about all of that sort of stuff. 102 00:09:30.659 --> 00:09:47.220 Yeah, do you think this is a reflection of the 2 showrunners where Russell is very confident in kind of his personality and sexuality, whereas Motha is less confident in kind of putting himself forward like that and so does it through the character of the doctor, who's nevertheless still quite bumbling? 103 00:09:47.279 --> 00:09:52.559 Yeah, well, I think he's critiquing his own kind of masculinity, as we said last week. 104 00:09:52.620 --> 00:09:58.379 And so he has doctors who are unsure and incompetent. 105 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:18.299 In series eight, he has Danny and Clara and Danny suddenly become sort of silly and 2nd guessing and finds it difficult to ask Clara out, even though he is in all sorts of other respects, a very sort of competent and confident person. 106 00:10:18.360 --> 00:10:35.580 And I think that that's how Moffat writes romantic comedy and the relationship between the doctor and river, not here, but once they actually know one another becomes a kind of screwball comedy of the type, that Moffat is incredibly good at rising. 107 00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:44.100 And of course, this season, series four, um, the doctor and Donna's relationship is a screwball comedy, that's how it's set up in Runaway Bride and then partners in crime. 108 00:10:44.159 --> 00:10:49.019 And to have a screwball comedy, you've got to have that freson between the characters. 109 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:51.659 Carol Lombard and Clark Gable. 110 00:10:51.720 --> 00:11:03.480 No, it's truly, and she was called... tragic early death, but they were having an offscreen affair and it's the same with it isn't the same with Tracy and Hepburn, but the tension is still there, you might say. 111 00:11:03.539 --> 00:11:13.620 But yes, all true great screwballs, again, Catherine Hepburn in Philadelphia story with Jimmy Stewart and, of course, Archie Leach. 112 00:11:13.740 --> 00:11:15.059 He's superb. 113 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:16.080 Absolutely superb. 114 00:11:16.139 --> 00:11:16.860 There's another triangle. 115 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:17.700 Yes, you're right. 116 00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:26.759 The reason this season works is because it's all about antecedents and proper stable filmic literary antecedents. 117 00:11:29.879 --> 00:11:41.460 I think that Donna's relationship with the doctor is properly complex in the way that a true relationship is full of contradictions and full of looking below the surface to see what's really there. 118 00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:46.259 And she starts this season saying, I'm not interested in a romantic relationship with you. 119 00:11:46.379 --> 00:11:52.320 And yet by she quickly becomes the person who can say the things to the doctor, but no one else can say it. 120 00:11:52.440 --> 00:11:57.720 Martha couldn't say that Donna couldn't say, and we have that beautiful scene at the end where she says, you know, are you all right? 121 00:11:57.779 --> 00:11:59.759 you know, because actually I'm all right too. 122 00:11:59.820 --> 00:12:01.500 And it's saying something completely different. 123 00:12:01.620 --> 00:12:07.559 And earlier in the season, doesn't she say something like, I don't know what, who else you've been travelling with, but this doesn't... 124 00:12:07.620 --> 00:12:08.399 Yeah, that's right. 125 00:12:08.460 --> 00:12:10.320 And but this doesn't fly with me. 126 00:12:10.379 --> 00:12:13.860 So we've got on one hand saying, I don't want anything more from you. 127 00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:19.139 But on the one hand, a much deeper relationship with the doctor than we've seen with the other two. 128 00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:21.419 And so that's what I mean by kind of properly complex. 129 00:12:21.480 --> 00:12:21.840 I like that. 130 00:12:21.899 --> 00:12:22.500 I like it. 131 00:12:22.620 --> 00:12:32.220 You're going with this, Johnny, because it's exactly the same way that screwball comedy developed through the 40s and 50s into the buddy movie and how the Hawks was progenitor of that. 132 00:12:32.279 --> 00:12:45.720 So he mostly made films about men who were great blokes and the only women's comedy he ever made was a need to lose gentlemen prefer blondes, Marilyn Monroe and Jane Russell, which has some of the most iconic scenes. 133 00:12:45.779 --> 00:12:51.480 But he said, on I only make body movies, this just happens to be about 2 fellows that are being played by women. 134 00:12:51.539 --> 00:12:53.039 And it's the same thing we have here. 135 00:12:53.100 --> 00:12:55.500 This works because it's Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid. 136 00:12:55.559 --> 00:12:58.259 Do you see Hepburn and Tracy in this? 137 00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:01.980 Because they were they kind of signalled up front as being the inspiration. 138 00:13:02.039 --> 00:13:11.220 But it was also that was interesting because they were both queer identifying if only in private and outed in their later lives with a lot of complex stuff going on between them. 139 00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:12.899 And I do believe that she was in love with him. 140 00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:17.759 She certainly Hepburn certainly protested that she was, but there were a lot of layers to all these relationships. 141 00:13:17.820 --> 00:13:18.360 But absolutely. 142 00:13:18.419 --> 00:13:27.480 That was also a fraternity because you could argue in the same, in the same vein that the reason the Avengers, in the 60s work, just because he played the woman and she played the man. 143 00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:34.740 And it's so nice as well that Donna's particular subplot in this episode leans into her age. 144 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:35.700 Yeah. 145 00:13:35.700 --> 00:13:38.220 He couldn't have played this subplot with Rose. 146 00:13:38.279 --> 00:13:50.399 It would have been a bit silly and a bit weird, whereas the fact that Donna is approaching middle age, means that you can play those kind of aspiring to a family kind of plots with her. 147 00:13:50.460 --> 00:13:54.240 I think she does the mother thing just spectacularly well. 148 00:13:54.299 --> 00:14:01.139 When she turns up at the playground and sends the kids off and the thing that she says to them is now don't fight. 149 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:03.539 I just thought that was so perfect. 150 00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:08.519 There was just a little moment of real realism in that, which I thought was terrific. 151 00:14:08.700 --> 00:14:13.379 And cutting to the end of the episode when she realises that the children have vanished. 152 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:16.559 That is such a portrayal of real anguish. 153 00:14:16.620 --> 00:14:18.779 Oh that is chilling. is chilling. 154 00:14:18.840 --> 00:14:21.659 I think that's nearly unwatchable, actually. 155 00:14:21.720 --> 00:14:30.120 And, you know, like I don't have children, so there's a limit to my ability to kind of empathise with that, but I think it is horrible. 156 00:14:30.179 --> 00:14:47.580 Oh, yeah, I think from my personal, everyone, every parent has had that experience of looking behind them and can't see the kids and you don't know where they are just for an instant and it's, it's, it's really nicely played in the editing and the music and that terrible wail of anguish that Catherine Tatal is out in that state. 157 00:14:47.639 --> 00:14:48.360 And she relates herself. 158 00:14:48.419 --> 00:14:52.200 She keeps looking from one bed to the other, touching one bed to the other. like she can't stop. 159 00:14:52.320 --> 00:15:14.159 I think that here's another Moffat trope that we're spotting for the 1st time and we see it again in world enough in time, where the companion is put into a situation that apparently seems to last for years and years and years, and they're just kind of tortured. 160 00:15:14.220 --> 00:15:16.019 And I don't like it. 161 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:18.179 Like I dislike it a great deal. 162 00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:25.799 And I think like you travel with a doctor because you like him and because you're having fun. 163 00:15:25.860 --> 00:15:29.879 And so doing that to the companions, I think makes them less real. 164 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:37.919 We talked about the Hingecliffe era and pushing Sarah downstairs and blinding her and hypnotising her and all of those things she complains about in hand of fear. 165 00:15:37.980 --> 00:15:47.279 And we just kind of felt, or I remember us saying that the amount of kind of torment that she's put through makes her a less real person. 166 00:15:47.340 --> 00:15:54.480 Now, I don't think that happens to Donna here, but I think it's a mistake to be quite that cruel to a companion. 167 00:15:54.539 --> 00:15:58.559 Amy, Amy's baby dissolving into a pile of sick in her arm. 168 00:15:58.679 --> 00:16:04.080 Yes, similarly, similarly, um, a similarly questionable moment, I suppose. 169 00:16:04.139 --> 00:16:11.220 I suppose the difference with, the difference is the Donna, Donna's story here gets reversed, whereas Bill's does not. 170 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:20.039 And even Amy's in the girl who waited. is kind of fixed in it. 171 00:16:20.100 --> 00:16:22.500 So she's put through 30 years of tormenting. 172 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:23.159 Yeah, yeah. 173 00:16:23.220 --> 00:16:27.539 That's similarly reversed in a kind of science fictiony way at the end. 174 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:43.559 So I think it, to me, it comes back to something you were saying before about what's Moffatt's attitude to death and what is the, what is the virtue in showing death to be reversible or in this case showing anguish or torment to be reversible. 175 00:16:43.620 --> 00:16:55.980 That, to me, is what he does all the time, is put characters through a great deal, a great deal of anguish, and then flicks a bit of a switch and puts them back. 176 00:16:56.039 --> 00:16:57.899 So Merrick, isn't it? 177 00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:01.799 Do you think there's a sense here of it being a net positive for Donna? 178 00:17:01.799 --> 00:17:07.680 even though she's left with great anguish over having not having her children and her husband with her anymore. 179 00:17:07.740 --> 00:17:12.000 She's been given a life that's so far eluded her and she has full memories of that life. 180 00:17:12.059 --> 00:17:13.980 Except that it is fake. 181 00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:15.299 It is really fake. 182 00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:19.019 The children are not real and they even acknowledge that. 183 00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:21.839 So up to the point where Miss Evangelista reveals. 184 00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:22.920 Yeah. 185 00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:38.339 And because that isn't really 7 years, it is just a little while, but all of the bits are being left out, you know, like she isn't in the way that Bill genuinely is stuck in that hospital for all that time, she isn't. 186 00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:40.559 But she's still, I don't know. 187 00:17:40.619 --> 00:17:43.799 I still think it is sort of going a little bit far. 188 00:17:43.859 --> 00:17:49.079 And it does give her, it does give her a grand love affair, which I really like, you know. 189 00:17:49.140 --> 00:17:51.960 And I'm sort of glad that it doesn't get picked up later. 190 00:17:52.019 --> 00:17:55.259 Like I'm happy that we don't see Lee again necessarily. 191 00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:58.380 But that bit where she says goodbye to him and I'll find you. 192 00:17:58.440 --> 00:18:03.420 And then there's that moment where he goes to call for her, but he can't because of his stutter. 193 00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:06.359 And that's classic press gang, isn't it? 194 00:18:06.420 --> 00:18:08.279 Remember Classic Morphin. 195 00:18:08.339 --> 00:18:20.640 Remember, Kenny has the Irish girlfriend who's a wrong number each time and they just keep missing one another and they never catch up just out of sheer silly coincidence and it's that again. 196 00:18:21.299 --> 00:18:30.059 I also like in that scene how the teleport only carries 3 people at a time, which is very much the arc in space, which is what Muppet loves. 197 00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:34.019 I always look at that and thinking you didn't think to build a teleport with more than 3 pads on it. 198 00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:38.880 I would have loved it if Lee had been intercepted by the time lords and sent back to the beginning of Skara. 199 00:18:38.940 --> 00:18:39.839 Oh, do we need? 200 00:18:42.900 --> 00:18:44.160 Thought experiment. 201 00:18:44.220 --> 00:18:48.359 Can you imagine this kind of, well, I call it a subplot? 202 00:18:48.420 --> 00:18:52.859 But really it's the main plot of Forest of the Dead being given to a companion in the classic series. 203 00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:55.380 Can you imagine Barbara in this kind of plot? 204 00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:56.099 Very much so. 205 00:18:56.099 --> 00:19:06.059 She could really, like, imagine having that kind of other life for a companion. before that Donna is, you know, is noted as being close to Sarah Jane, but I feel she's closest to Barbara. 206 00:19:06.119 --> 00:19:08.880 Absolutely It's what occurred to me all throughout watching it. 207 00:19:08.940 --> 00:19:15.059 I just kept having a vision of Barbara popping into my head and thinking, imagine if we had an episode with Barbara doing this kind of story. 208 00:19:15.240 --> 00:19:17.099 Space Museum 3. 209 00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:21.359 There are moments in the Crusades too, where she has. 210 00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:22.500 Yeah, well, that's what I was thinking. 211 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:24.599 Crusades. where she plays a maternal role. 212 00:19:24.660 --> 00:19:26.460 You know, Donna loses her children. 213 00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:28.440 Barbara gets to unravel a cardigan. 214 00:19:28.500 --> 00:19:30.900 The thing's clearly an ocean. 215 00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:46.500 When we're talking about the truth of companions and the truth of interiority of characters. 216 00:19:46.680 --> 00:19:49.619 And I do like that the doctor is always left out by Moffatt. 217 00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:54.240 We don't get interiority until later, and I don't really enjoy it when we do. 218 00:19:54.299 --> 00:20:01.980 I would rather the doctor simply be the cypher of who we wanted to be when we grew up and that was always slightly misty. 219 00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:04.140 That was also sort of fiction mist, wasn't it? 220 00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:06.299 We never really got what that was. 221 00:20:06.359 --> 00:20:08.160 It's just a little spritzer of that. 222 00:20:08.220 --> 00:20:10.140 But Donna is us. 223 00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:20.700 And I really do love that those moments in the playground that you alluded to, Peter, that you pointed to are always with Miss Evangelister, who is now Picasso's weeping woman. 224 00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:25.079 So the black veil, it's no coincidence that she has the same arrangement of the face. 225 00:20:25.140 --> 00:20:39.000 It's a coincidence that Picasso's portrait was about a woman who had lost a child in childbirth, or there are many stories and narratives about it, and he painted at least 3 versions because the bloke was up for cash, you know, and it was stolen. 226 00:20:39.059 --> 00:20:41.099 It was strong and famously some years ago. 227 00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:43.920 So it was certainly in the news around at the time. 228 00:20:43.920 --> 00:21:01.319 But the sensitivity and the gentleness and the the porosity of his of his feminine protagonists and also the way that the narrative will seep through them and are not always, not always safely. 229 00:21:01.380 --> 00:21:06.539 I'm absolutely convinced that the evangelistic character is a nod to the Me Too movement. 230 00:21:06.599 --> 00:21:12.299 And even though this was written, what, 20067, that was already a time when we were getting news. 231 00:21:12.359 --> 00:21:14.579 It was out there. 232 00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:18.480 And Moffatt under, this is the thing that I find so frustrating about his writing. 233 00:21:18.539 --> 00:21:37.079 He really does understand women, and yet he will project them or put them onto this really Apollonian concept of the Athenian warrior, this remote princess of callous, humourous indifference. 234 00:21:37.140 --> 00:21:39.420 And I was like, just really, come on. 235 00:21:39.480 --> 00:21:45.960 But again, that's your proclivity and that's also a part of how you write and one of the aspects that you adore about women. 236 00:21:46.019 --> 00:21:53.099 But when she says, I really have an emotional moment when this character says this behind the veil. 237 00:21:53.099 --> 00:21:59.039 And he uses it again with his Silurian character, Vastra, further on. 238 00:21:59.099 --> 00:22:01.680 So this is this is something he's quite cogent with. 239 00:22:01.740 --> 00:22:05.160 I have the 2 things you need to see absolute truth. 240 00:22:05.220 --> 00:22:08.700 I am brilliant and I am unloved. 241 00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:26.160 Now, every child as a fan, every teen fan person had that absolute perspicacity when they realised they were the only ones in the room who got it and all the other kids were into sport or whatever else or playing in the playground, but we were the ones with our heads buried in a Terence Dix. 242 00:22:26.339 --> 00:22:44.880 And, um, yeah, I could talk about Louis C.K. or Joe Biden even, or, you know, Jan um, Gonumeschi or Weinstein, of course, Jean-Claude Arnaud, who was famously touching up a Scandalwegian princess, and the reason the Nobel Prize was delayed for 4 years because of what he was up to right at the time that this was being written. 243 00:22:44.940 --> 00:22:54.299 It's definitely feeling to me it's about the fragility of travelling or becoming a part of that which you've always aspired to. 244 00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:57.119 So for Donna, it's, I'm finally in the escape clause. 245 00:22:57.180 --> 00:23:00.420 And finally in that library that is now the living truth. 246 00:23:00.420 --> 00:23:05.400 And be careful what you wish for because you'll just come back to what you've missed out on. 247 00:23:05.460 --> 00:23:09.000 And for her, as you were saying, Johnny, it's about a family. 248 00:23:09.059 --> 00:23:18.420 For Miss Evangelista, it's about, yeah, when she says, I'm his practical everything, what are the words that she uses, and here's some. 249 00:23:18.420 --> 00:23:21.960 Anyway, when she describes her role with Steve Pemberton. 250 00:23:22.019 --> 00:23:23.400 It's true to me. 251 00:23:23.460 --> 00:23:25.559 She says, I'm his personal everything. 252 00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:26.460 And his personal everything. 253 00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:29.700 I don't think there's any doubt as to what that means. at all. 254 00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:31.980 And we conveil it and say, oh, no, no, that's not the case. 255 00:23:32.039 --> 00:23:32.339 Come on. 256 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:35.640 We know what Moffat is like and we know where he goes with these things. 257 00:23:35.700 --> 00:23:38.579 And he goes pretty dark. if you choose to have a look for it. 258 00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:51.480 The one thing that's coming out of this is that he gets what it is to be to be a child and to be and to be in a point of fragility and that's why I have real problems with what's going to come up in the next few years. 259 00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:55.740 But in this story, I feel he gets it absolutely right, and that's why I love it. 260 00:23:55.799 --> 00:23:57.000 Bravo Richard. 261 00:23:57.059 --> 00:23:57.599 Oh okay. 262 00:23:57.660 --> 00:24:00.059 Do you think Cal is like that as well? 263 00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:07.980 So Cal is in a world that's been created to kind of keep her happy and she has a fake father. 264 00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:13.559 And then during the course of the episode, She switches her father off inadvertently. 265 00:24:13.619 --> 00:24:20.579 And I think she starts to come to a realisation that, um, her world's not real. 266 00:24:20.579 --> 00:24:22.380 And it's a suspicion that she has. 267 00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:30.839 Remember when Miss Evangelista says or goes to say to Donna that this world is fake, it's VR? 268 00:24:30.900 --> 00:24:36.660 She's watching it on television and screaming out, no, no, no, don't, you mustn't tell her. 269 00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:52.140 And so what happens to Cal is that that world that we see her in that domestic world that we see her in just falls away, and that's the point at which she goes to destroy the computer. 270 00:24:52.200 --> 00:24:57.660 That's when she puts it on self-destruct because she suddenly realised that it's not real. 271 00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:02.640 I think Kel's story is one of the innocence of childhood cannot last. 272 00:25:02.700 --> 00:25:09.359 You know, there's going to, you can't protect children from forever and there's a point at which everything's going to become very real. 273 00:25:09.420 --> 00:25:12.480 But then at the end of the story, something interesting happens. 274 00:25:12.539 --> 00:25:16.980 In that, at the very end of the story, Donna's 2 children return. 275 00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:19.319 And she's now with them. 276 00:25:19.380 --> 00:25:21.000 And there's 3 beds in that bedroom. 277 00:25:21.059 --> 00:25:24.660 And River Song has seemingly taken the role of the parents. 278 00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:28.980 And so what seems to have been happening for Cal, is that she was in control of this world. 279 00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:37.200 She had undue responsibility for this world for someone so young, and in her revised version of it, her improved version of it. 280 00:25:37.259 --> 00:25:45.539 She's kind of, given the parental role to somebody else, to, so but she, her innocence of that childhood can be maintained a little longer. 281 00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:57.539 So when Mr. Lux describes the world that was created to house Cal, a world where she could travel anywhere where she had all of the world's books, all of that, it's still described as being partial or incomplete. 282 00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:00.779 It's not a world that is in any way satisfying. 283 00:26:00.779 --> 00:26:03.720 And she's surrounded by people who aren't actually real. 284 00:26:03.779 --> 00:26:11.759 And then she suddenly got these, you know, 4000 people in there and, you know, the whole thing is breaking down. 285 00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:18.299 And that's the reason why the world that's created is, you know, not satisfying. 286 00:26:18.299 --> 00:26:20.400 Of course, that's not the role of a child. 287 00:26:20.460 --> 00:26:24.059 The child's not meant to be rescuing people from certain things. 288 00:26:24.180 --> 00:26:24.599 Yeah. 289 00:26:24.599 --> 00:26:26.579 So that's the broken bit. 290 00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:29.279 Like, yeah, in the story, it says the world's incomplete. 291 00:26:29.339 --> 00:26:33.240 But I suppose in the narrative, it's that girl's behaving in a way she shouldn't have to behave. 292 00:26:33.299 --> 00:26:33.960 Right. 293 00:26:34.019 --> 00:26:39.779 And so what we get at the end is a world with some other people in it that Cal is now. 294 00:26:39.779 --> 00:26:41.819 And that's something the doctor gives her. 295 00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:51.839 Like a Cal is now living with the crew, you know, with other Dave and Proper Dave and Anita and Miss Evangelista and River. 296 00:26:51.900 --> 00:26:54.720 And so she has people to look after her. 297 00:26:54.779 --> 00:26:59.039 So it's a proper world now because it's peopled in a way that it wasn't originally. 298 00:26:59.460 --> 00:27:06.960 It's peopled with family too, which is this recurring motif in Moffatt's work. 299 00:27:07.019 --> 00:27:18.240 And the ending does confuse me, I must admit, because I'm not entirely sure why we have to leave River and her crew in the cyber world. 300 00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:22.740 Everyone else gets, I don't know, reconstituted from the flesh banks or something. 301 00:27:22.799 --> 00:27:23.940 You know, there's something. 302 00:27:23.940 --> 00:27:27.599 And it doesn't, it's not entirely clear to me unless I've missed something. 303 00:27:27.660 --> 00:27:29.279 What the difference is. 304 00:27:29.339 --> 00:27:31.259 Like if everyone else can be turned. 305 00:27:31.380 --> 00:27:36.599 Because they were uploaded at their point of death, whereas everyone else was teleported in. 306 00:27:36.660 --> 00:27:40.200 Yeah, but it's a kind of science fiction conceit, isn't it? 307 00:27:40.259 --> 00:27:44.819 You know, it's a kind of slight, you know, it's not really very substantial. 308 00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:49.019 And so maybe the, maybe what you're saying, I guess I'm thinking about this as you say it. 309 00:27:49.079 --> 00:27:54.299 Maybe the doctors made a deliberate decision to people that world for Cal. 310 00:27:54.359 --> 00:27:58.319 And though, I think, I think too, there is something about death. 311 00:27:58.380 --> 00:28:01.559 You know, the doctor cheats death, but he doesn't cheat it completely. 312 00:28:01.619 --> 00:28:05.819 And so those people are dead and they can't come back. 313 00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:07.619 And Donna wasn't dead. 314 00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:10.680 Like her physical essence still existed. 315 00:28:10.740 --> 00:28:12.420 Miss Evangelist sort of says that. 316 00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:15.839 And so she can be reconstituted at any time. 317 00:28:15.900 --> 00:28:17.940 But the others are dead. 318 00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:23.819 And so, you know, like the doctor still cheats. 319 00:28:23.819 --> 00:28:34.980 And there is that, like, we may as well talk about it now, that incredible final scene where Moffat kind of anticipates Day of the Doctor, with the Sonic Screwdriver. 320 00:28:35.099 --> 00:28:44.220 The idea that in all of the time that the doctors had a relationship with River, he's known that she will die here. 321 00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:47.160 And so he's had 100s of years to work out how to save her. 322 00:28:47.220 --> 00:28:49.980 And so the episode ends. 323 00:28:50.039 --> 00:28:55.559 Like the episode actually properly ends with the doctor and Donna, you know, they put the diary down. 324 00:28:55.619 --> 00:28:59.640 They put the Sonic screwdriver down and they walk away and that's the end of the episode. 325 00:28:59.700 --> 00:29:08.220 And then suddenly you get the doctor doing this incredible heroic thing and actually becoming the doctor that River remembers. 326 00:29:08.579 --> 00:29:13.319 You know, Movin's doctor starts here, I think. 327 00:29:13.380 --> 00:29:14.940 And it's in that scene. 328 00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:22.259 And it's that thing that we talked about last week where Moffatt will have something hiding in plain sight and then suddenly you'll realise the significance of it. 329 00:29:22.619 --> 00:29:26.579 Suddenly the screwdriver means something different. 330 00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:30.180 It originally meant that he had a close relationship with River. 331 00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:32.880 But now it means that he's worked out how to save River. 332 00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:38.279 And River's voiceover and the doctor's heroic run and he dives down the thing and all of that. 333 00:29:38.339 --> 00:29:46.920 It's so incredible and it's that that gives him the confidence to, you know, open the Tartar store with a, with a click of his fingers and then wander off to new adventures. 334 00:29:46.980 --> 00:29:48.119 It's incredible. 335 00:29:48.180 --> 00:29:49.559 I think it's absolutely incredible. 336 00:29:49.619 --> 00:29:55.200 And I do think that it would rob it if he just saved her, you know, and she's alive again. 337 00:29:55.259 --> 00:29:57.240 You know, he saves her. 338 00:29:57.299 --> 00:29:59.579 She's saved, but they're all still dead. 339 00:29:59.880 --> 00:30:02.400 That ending is magnificent. 340 00:30:02.460 --> 00:30:06.059 And I think, again, it's the 2 it's 2 people that we mentioned before. 341 00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:08.819 It's Eros Lennon Murray Gold as well here. 342 00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:12.900 And that beautiful shot where we zoom in on the book and the screwdriver. 343 00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:14.339 And you're right. 344 00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:17.640 It's like we're comfortably waiting for the episode to end. 345 00:30:17.700 --> 00:30:19.740 We know it's about time for the episode the end. 346 00:30:19.859 --> 00:30:21.180 This is all the signals are that way. 347 00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:25.859 The doctor runs back into shot out of focus and it restarts. 348 00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:26.400 It's lovely. 349 00:30:26.460 --> 00:30:29.160 It's really good Murray's great, this episode. 350 00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:37.980 All of the music in the, or a lot of the music in the virtual reality thing, the notes are reversed, the sound of the notes is reversed. 351 00:30:38.039 --> 00:30:45.539 So you hear the attack after the note is played and it's really just sort of adds to that sort of slightly off putting thing. 352 00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:55.200 And it also uses the original doctor's theme in a really big way because this episode is so much about the doctor becoming something even greater. 353 00:30:55.440 --> 00:31:08.880 Is there a theme for Donner in there that's then used, with that kind of that note, which goes, like that, and it's reused very heavily and turn left and journey's end, and it's almost like her motif. 354 00:31:08.940 --> 00:31:10.799 Yeah, I don't know what that is. 355 00:31:10.859 --> 00:31:14.640 Or it's like a trick that gold discovers for this episode and then kind of reuses. 356 00:31:14.700 --> 00:31:20.400 But I think it's appearing for the 1st time here and it is it is trying to make the music more off-putting. 357 00:31:20.460 --> 00:31:31.019 It's the library music with the chimes, you know, the little bells, which is supposed to denote childhood in a way, made weird. 358 00:31:31.079 --> 00:31:33.720 There's some nice electric guitar in there. 359 00:31:33.779 --> 00:31:40.920 It sort of segues out of one of those Donner world sequences into the doctor and river and them running away from the Vashta Narada. 360 00:31:40.980 --> 00:31:42.599 It's electric guitar string. 361 00:31:42.660 --> 00:31:43.259 It's beautiful. 362 00:31:43.380 --> 00:31:52.920 In fact, whenever the little girl is watching that on television, the music is cheesier than it is on our television version of it. 363 00:31:52.980 --> 00:31:57.900 It's like it's Murray doing television music for those particular scenes. 364 00:31:57.960 --> 00:31:58.559 It's great. 365 00:32:05.880 --> 00:32:12.299 Richard, that line you were talking about earlier about to seek absolute truth, you have to be brilliant and unloved. 366 00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:15.059 Does that mean that the happiness patrol seeks absolute truth? 367 00:32:15.900 --> 00:32:19.319 It's another one that really hits all the marks. 368 00:32:19.380 --> 00:32:20.759 So yeah, maybe. 369 00:32:21.059 --> 00:32:23.339 You can't call anyone pretty. 370 00:32:23.400 --> 00:32:25.140 You can't accuse them of prettiness in that story. 371 00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:31.859 That scene, which Moffat writes on the park bench about pretty and unloved. 372 00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:33.900 It has 2 brilliant lines of dialogue. 373 00:32:33.960 --> 00:32:34.440 There's that. 374 00:32:34.440 --> 00:32:36.480 And there's also Donna's classic. 375 00:32:36.539 --> 00:32:39.359 I'm not real, but I've been dieting. 376 00:32:39.420 --> 00:32:44.099 I'm just opposite ends of the spot and are both brilliant. 377 00:32:45.299 --> 00:32:49.140 That's a proper character moment in one line of diet, isn't it? 378 00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:52.440 Yeah, I was just wondering who she's saying that line too. 379 00:32:52.500 --> 00:32:54.960 Because the world is Donna's, right? 380 00:32:55.019 --> 00:32:58.380 So Donna's maybe Lee, they're the only real people in it. 381 00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:02.339 Who exactly in that world has found her to be brilliant and unloved. 382 00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:13.319 Well, but don't you think that there are 4000 other people that we just don't see, like all of those people that have been saved by Cal living similar types of lives? 383 00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:15.299 I don't I don't know. 384 00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:16.019 Maybe that's right. 385 00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:19.500 Maybe they are all living kind of similar lives and she flits between each of them. 386 00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:23.099 I had the idea that they were, as he says, stuck in the email. 387 00:33:23.160 --> 00:33:29.039 Like that they were kind of in some loop and that actually the world we saw was the only world, which was being actualised. 388 00:33:29.099 --> 00:33:30.000 But I don't really know. 389 00:33:30.059 --> 00:33:41.460 I thought we might be getting a little bit more of, oh, mind dropper or some other stories where, you know, there's definitely one that's doing Kurt Russell escaping from New York every year. 390 00:33:41.579 --> 00:33:48.000 I think the storyline about a character being in a VR world is a difficult one to get right. 391 00:33:48.059 --> 00:33:52.440 And so Moffat will try it again in extremis, I think. 392 00:33:52.500 --> 00:33:58.079 And I think it's much better here, where it's not the focus of the full episode. 393 00:33:58.140 --> 00:34:01.140 It's a kind of detour during the story into this. 394 00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:10.619 And for some reason it feels like much more, um, I don't know why, but it feels much more fundamental to Donna that if this world is real. 395 00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:13.920 Like if Miss Evangelista says, look, this whole thing is wrong, can't you see it? 396 00:34:13.980 --> 00:34:17.099 If you pay attention for 5 minutes, you'll see none of this adds up. 397 00:34:17.159 --> 00:34:22.739 For some reason, that seems much more important to Donna, um, than in extremists. 398 00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:30.960 Because I think the risk with those stories is that you get to the end of them and they say, oh, it was all VR and you think, well, why did you put me through 45 minutes of that? 399 00:34:31.019 --> 00:34:33.960 Like, that does hasn't occurred to be very consequential. 400 00:34:34.019 --> 00:34:41.099 So Moffat will go on to demonstrate that he has a real kind of boomer understanding of what computers are. 401 00:34:41.219 --> 00:34:49.019 And I was actually surprised by what a good job he did this time when he uses all his computer terminology. 402 00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:54.059 But I think the reason that this virtual world is successful is that it's television. 403 00:34:54.119 --> 00:35:02.039 And so he knows a lot about television and that's a virtual world that he's been in the habit of creating for sort of ages and ages. 404 00:35:02.039 --> 00:35:13.440 Actually, watching it, watching it again, talking about Boomer's understanding of technology, watching the kid watch television is a really weird thing because actually kids that won't watch television anymore. 405 00:35:13.500 --> 00:35:18.239 And so you watch, she's watching it on this big cathro television, she shouldn't really be doing that anyway. 406 00:35:18.300 --> 00:35:21.840 And then the telephone is a rotary telephone. 407 00:35:21.900 --> 00:35:26.159 So she really has created the kind of retro world for herself to live in. 408 00:35:26.219 --> 00:35:31.380 Although I'm also confused about how far in the future this year. 51st century. 409 00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:32.519 Oh, the 51st century. 410 00:35:32.579 --> 00:35:37.920 So, yeah, so you really can't be her natural habitat, that it's a historical artefact. 411 00:35:37.980 --> 00:35:38.940 She has decided to live in. 412 00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:39.599 Yeah. 413 00:35:39.659 --> 00:35:52.800 No, well, I think that that Moffatt sets that virtual reality a few years before even 2008 because it's childhood memories of watching TV. you know. 414 00:35:53.159 --> 00:35:55.860 And it gives him the chance to do that. 415 00:35:55.920 --> 00:36:11.519 Like that incredible scene where Cal has activated the self-destruct and the world's going to be destroyed and the doctor is trying to attract her attention and all of her robot toys are going crazy around her and stuff, I think is properly scary and stuff. 416 00:36:11.579 --> 00:36:18.960 And so I think that that the world, that VR world is set in the past for our benefit rather than... sure. 417 00:36:19.019 --> 00:36:20.820 I fear it's going to date badly. 418 00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:24.780 Like if this is the Barbara Wright version of it, you know, made in 1965. 419 00:36:25.079 --> 00:36:33.179 We're watching a small child watch on this tiny little 405 screen and wondering why they've chosen that particular version of the world to live. 420 00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:36.300 Yeah, but I think, I mean, all Doctor Who dates badly. 421 00:36:36.360 --> 00:36:43.800 And so the advantage of being up to date is that it's at least up to date to the people it's 1st broadcast too. 422 00:36:50.639 --> 00:37:00.000 So we start, I think we start to get a clear idea this episode of the relationship between River and the Doctor. 423 00:37:00.059 --> 00:37:05.039 And I think we get a better idea of what the doctor is from it as well. 424 00:37:05.099 --> 00:37:18.780 And this is a scene that I've mentioned actually for ages, like in previous episodes where we've been talking about David Tennant, where it becomes clear that the tenant doctor performance is just a mask. 425 00:37:18.840 --> 00:37:23.579 Well, the doctor is the least real thing in any episode of Doctor. 426 00:37:24.179 --> 00:37:29.699 And Moffatt may be one of the 1st people to identify that or to name check it. 427 00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:35.219 So he, when he, when she's, when I think she calls him later on the unnamed god, doesn't she? 428 00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:41.280 And, you know, we've got a lot of old text references, not just biblical, but, you know, even going back to uh. 429 00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:44.940 Yeah, yeah, there's these, he's not meant to be. 430 00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:46.079 He's a palmsist. 431 00:37:46.139 --> 00:37:50.639 He's constantly rewritten both by the actor and by the performance codes that are brought to each season. 432 00:37:50.699 --> 00:37:51.480 No, he's not real. 433 00:37:51.539 --> 00:37:55.199 He's just our punt up the river Styx. 434 00:37:55.260 --> 00:37:56.340 He's not. 435 00:37:56.400 --> 00:38:04.679 It's a lovely moment, and what I really get from it is, of course, how flawed the doctor is, but you can see it on Tenant's face. 436 00:38:04.739 --> 00:38:13.199 And then how instantly he has to go, I just have to park this for a little while because I've got more important things that are happening right at this moment to me. 437 00:38:13.260 --> 00:38:22.079 But the way that he parks it is by going straight into the tenant doctor performance, you know, by saying silly things, talking about hairdryers, you know, like all of that sort of stuff. 438 00:38:22.139 --> 00:38:29.099 Like instantly he goes back into the shtick that we've been irritated by kind of on and off for the last few years. 439 00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:32.460 Me as well, I think. 440 00:38:32.519 --> 00:38:35.039 But that moment. 441 00:38:35.099 --> 00:38:39.420 And it makes it clear, I think, that they're married. 442 00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:50.940 And at the end, when the doctor's chained up and is unable to rescue River, he says, you know, he makes it clear that that was his name. 443 00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:53.820 Like he's an explicit Anita asks about it. 444 00:38:53.880 --> 00:38:56.340 You know, and the doctor refuses to answer. 445 00:38:56.400 --> 00:38:58.679 And we will find out later. 446 00:38:58.679 --> 00:39:01.079 See, I think there is wriggle room there. 447 00:39:01.139 --> 00:39:11.219 I think it is, I think that Moffatt's smart enough to leave enough kind of space in it in case things don't pan out the way he thinks it's going to pan out. 448 00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:15.239 But it is it is very, It is very much implied that that's the answer, yeah. 449 00:39:15.300 --> 00:39:26.280 I also think that the other thing is that when the doctor says that saving all these people is his job and her reply is what you mean I'm not allowed to have a career now. 450 00:39:26.340 --> 00:39:28.800 You know, like that's a married couple thing. 451 00:39:28.860 --> 00:39:32.099 And in fact, doesn't Mr. Lux call them on it? 452 00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:38.039 Doesn't Mr. Lux say all these people are going to die and you 2 are standing there squabbling like an old married couple? 453 00:39:38.099 --> 00:39:39.719 And you kind of go, wow. 454 00:39:40.559 --> 00:39:41.099 That, what they are. 455 00:39:41.159 --> 00:39:41.880 Yeah. 456 00:39:41.940 --> 00:39:47.639 And that's where the wriggle room is because they both look at each other guiltily instead of River song going, yep, you've guessed it. 457 00:39:47.699 --> 00:39:48.539 Right, let's move on. 458 00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:55.679 You know, so there, I mean, I think that Moffatt's always got one eye on leaving all his options open. 459 00:39:55.739 --> 00:39:58.079 I think I think that's probably true. 460 00:39:58.139 --> 00:40:15.599 But I also think, too, that once it becomes a matter of speculation, and it will, you know, when she turns up again next season, what's the nature of the relationship between the doctor and river, that once that becomes a question, the only possible satisfying answer is that they're married. 461 00:40:15.659 --> 00:40:19.199 And it's a little bit like missy in series 8, who is missy? 462 00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:23.460 Is there a possible answer to that question apart from the one that Moffatt comes up with? 463 00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:27.539 one that wouldn't have just been absurd or uninteresting or whatever? 464 00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:31.440 And so I think they're very clearly playing it as husband and wife. 465 00:40:31.500 --> 00:40:38.760 And I'm glad that that was the eventual, you know, that they're not sort of spores or she's somewhere between the... 466 00:40:38.820 --> 00:40:39.179 Yeah, yeah. 467 00:40:39.239 --> 00:40:41.820 Any sort of science fiction explanation would have been so dumb. 468 00:40:41.880 --> 00:40:43.079 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 469 00:40:43.139 --> 00:40:44.579 It's a lovely well-done moment. 470 00:40:44.699 --> 00:40:48.360 But it does bring to the foreground the annoying thing of what is the doctor's name. 471 00:40:48.420 --> 00:40:49.139 Why do we care? 472 00:40:49.500 --> 00:41:05.579 It's the start of Moffat placing the doctor at the heart of the program and stories about the doctor being important, except that the doctor's at the heart of the program and the name of the program brings up the question, what is the doctor's name? 473 00:41:05.639 --> 00:41:09.719 That's right, but there's a reason that we haven't addressed this so far in that we're not interested. 474 00:41:09.780 --> 00:41:13.800 They're central mysteries of the program, which don't need to be talked about. 475 00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:15.360 But they can't be resolved. 476 00:41:15.420 --> 00:41:16.199 That's the other thing. 477 00:41:16.260 --> 00:41:17.159 There can't be an answer. 478 00:41:17.219 --> 00:41:17.880 Is it Gordon? 479 00:41:17.940 --> 00:41:18.960 I think it's Gordon. 480 00:41:19.019 --> 00:41:21.360 This is a lot older than Doctor Who. 481 00:41:21.599 --> 00:41:25.079 Are you touching Nathan when you say touching Nathan? 482 00:41:25.139 --> 00:41:26.280 No, he's not older than the Doctor Who. 483 00:41:26.340 --> 00:41:30.780 We just on Bondfinger, Johnny, you should come along for one of those. 484 00:41:30.840 --> 00:41:31.860 They're heaps of fun. 485 00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:34.019 That would remind me to watch a bonfoy weekend. 486 00:41:34.079 --> 00:41:36.360 No, we just do trashy 60s spy fine now. 487 00:41:36.420 --> 00:41:37.679 But we did an episode of The Prisoner. 488 00:41:37.739 --> 00:41:40.380 And of course, the whole McGuffin of that is why did you resign? 489 00:41:40.440 --> 00:41:40.920 He won't answer. 490 00:41:40.980 --> 00:41:42.059 They all know why he resigned. 491 00:41:42.119 --> 00:41:43.260 It's the most obvious thing. 492 00:41:43.320 --> 00:41:50.039 But there is that little point of, will you give away the defence of your persona? 493 00:41:50.099 --> 00:41:53.099 Will you drop your mask, Dr. Tennant? 494 00:41:53.159 --> 00:41:55.139 Will you reveal your truth? 495 00:41:55.260 --> 00:41:56.460 Will you just show us who you are? 496 00:41:56.519 --> 00:41:57.659 No. 497 00:41:57.719 --> 00:42:02.940 That is the reason that I go on because you don't know my history because you will not touch me. 498 00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:04.139 You see me every day. 499 00:42:04.199 --> 00:42:09.719 I'm in the intimacy of this idiot box, this idiot's lantern in your house, but no, you will not touch me. 500 00:42:09.780 --> 00:42:11.039 I remain inviolator. 501 00:42:11.099 --> 00:42:13.860 My boundaries are secure, as should yours be. 502 00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:21.539 And I think you can see that in the latest series with Jodie Whittaker is that, you know, we don't get enough of that kind of distance. 503 00:42:21.599 --> 00:42:25.440 We don't get enough of the doctor saying, here is the space between you and me. 504 00:42:25.500 --> 00:42:27.599 She started to do it a bit this year. 505 00:42:27.659 --> 00:42:28.320 She has. 506 00:42:28.380 --> 00:42:28.920 She has. 507 00:42:28.980 --> 00:42:33.059 But I think you can extend that question about the, it's the so what question. 508 00:42:33.119 --> 00:42:34.860 So she knows the doctor's name. 509 00:42:34.920 --> 00:42:35.519 So what? 510 00:42:35.579 --> 00:42:36.179 What does that matter? 511 00:42:36.239 --> 00:42:38.639 I think also you can extend it to her being his wife. 512 00:42:38.699 --> 00:42:40.440 It's kind of, so what? 513 00:42:40.500 --> 00:42:42.239 Well, lots of people have spouses. 514 00:42:42.300 --> 00:42:45.659 What is actually interesting or dramatic about that scenario? 515 00:42:45.780 --> 00:42:53.219 It's playing against the same thing that Nathan was talking about there with, you know, the program is called Doctor Who. 516 00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:54.420 It's about the doctor. 517 00:42:54.480 --> 00:43:01.019 The reason that that's important is that the doctor has never had a wife over 30 something seasons. 518 00:43:01.079 --> 00:43:02.699 And so why does he have one now? 519 00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:05.039 So it's playing against the expectations of the program. 520 00:43:05.099 --> 00:43:05.880 That's why it's important. 521 00:43:05.940 --> 00:43:10.079 But I struggle to think about what is actually, yep, sure. 522 00:43:10.139 --> 00:43:13.739 So it's the absence of it, which has made it interesting up until this point. 523 00:43:13.800 --> 00:43:18.119 But once we've got it, what sort of, what stories does that open up? 524 00:43:18.179 --> 00:43:23.880 What is it that's any really any difference to any of the other relationships he's had throughout? 525 00:43:23.940 --> 00:43:25.019 How many years is it? 526 00:43:25.079 --> 00:43:27.539 I forget which point. how many years it is at this point? 527 00:43:27.599 --> 00:43:36.300 But I think that what's interesting is the number of stories that it doesn't close down, that Moffat actually will go on. 528 00:43:36.360 --> 00:43:39.719 Like Moffat gives the doctor a wife here for the 1st time. 529 00:43:39.780 --> 00:43:44.639 Something so unthinkable that in the 1980s, there was that fake out. 530 00:43:44.760 --> 00:43:46.920 Caves are Andrazani number one, the doctor's wife. 531 00:43:46.980 --> 00:43:47.460 Yeah, yeah. 532 00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:59.639 You know, there was a story that John Nathan Turner was thinking of having a story called The Doctor's Wife, and it was a ruse he was trying to discover, who was leaking stuff from the production office or whatever. 533 00:43:59.699 --> 00:44:01.019 Little known fact. 534 00:44:01.079 --> 00:44:03.239 That episode would have had Krow Timon as his wife. 535 00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:07.320 So absolutely unthinkable. 536 00:44:07.380 --> 00:44:10.019 Moffat does it and the show still carries on. 537 00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:17.639 And what it does open up is the sort of things that we see in that river song arc. 538 00:44:17.699 --> 00:44:32.699 I think that that scene where the doctor, where the doctor is forced to sit there and watch while she sacrifices her life and he has to sit there opposite that smoking chair for ages and ages afterwards. 539 00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:41.699 And then he has a relationship with his woman and he knows exactly how she's going to die and he's doing that while he doesn't know her yet. 540 00:44:41.760 --> 00:44:42.780 All of that's in his future. 541 00:44:42.840 --> 00:44:46.679 And I think that that's something that the show has never done to the doctor. 542 00:44:46.739 --> 00:44:54.480 The show very rarely properly gives the doctor something interesting to have feelings about. 543 00:44:55.019 --> 00:44:58.739 And here I think it really, really does it properly. 544 00:44:58.860 --> 00:45:08.820 And because I am a dedicated and professional podcaster, I watched the Husbands of River Song last night, and it's so resonant. 545 00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:13.380 Like the end of it is, you know, the end of that story is so good. 546 00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:16.260 And for a similar reason, I think. 547 00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:32.699 So are you saying that the relationship about the husband and wife relationship gives it added meaning that if it was Donna's death that he was seeing preemptively and knew that he had to have a whole season of Doctor Who with her before watching her die, you wouldn't have the same emotional resonance. 548 00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:37.320 And I don't think you can do that with a regular character as well. with a companion. 549 00:45:37.380 --> 00:45:43.800 I think that her distance, river's distance from the program, her role as a sort of occasional guest star makes that possible as well. 550 00:45:43.860 --> 00:45:45.360 As our new brigadier. 551 00:45:45.420 --> 00:45:47.579 Yeah, well, and I love those characters too. 552 00:45:47.639 --> 00:45:51.119 I love when there are semi-regular cast members. 553 00:45:51.179 --> 00:45:52.860 I think Doctor Who can be very lonely. 554 00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:55.980 If it's just 2 people travelling around the world, none of whom have any friends. 555 00:45:56.039 --> 00:46:01.800 You know, I think that having a semi-regular, she lifts every show that she's in, I think. 556 00:46:01.860 --> 00:46:09.119 And, you know, Matt Smith's 1st show, the 1st one that he shoots is that one with River, the time of Angels. 557 00:46:09.239 --> 00:46:12.780 And I think it's so great and she absolutely lifts it. 558 00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:15.000 It gives him more interesting things to do. 559 00:46:15.059 --> 00:46:17.579 And he'll do that over and over again. 560 00:46:17.639 --> 00:46:22.500 He will make things that we might think are breaking changes to the program. 561 00:46:22.559 --> 00:46:24.239 He'll bring back galafre. 562 00:46:24.300 --> 00:46:26.519 He'll show us the doctor as a small child. 563 00:46:26.579 --> 00:46:35.579 All of these things that, you know, he'll we'll actually see the moment where the doctor and Susan get in the TARDIS at some point over the next few years. 564 00:46:35.639 --> 00:46:43.260 All of those things, he does, and it doesn't change what sort of stories we can tell. 565 00:46:43.320 --> 00:46:44.280 It doesn't break the program. 566 00:46:44.340 --> 00:46:51.780 It's sort of audacious and interesting, but it, you know, it lets us still do silly nonsense as well. 567 00:46:51.840 --> 00:46:56.039 Moffat's longevity as a showrunner means that he can return to those things. 568 00:46:56.159 --> 00:46:59.760 He can sort of pepper those things through, but he can return to it again and again. 569 00:46:59.820 --> 00:47:10.199 So, for instance, you have the river story being told over the course of 3 doctors and then ending up in the husband's river song and talk about the name of the doctor. 570 00:47:10.260 --> 00:47:13.980 He will return to that, of course, in the Matt Smith era in a big way. 571 00:47:14.039 --> 00:47:17.280 It will be part of the lead up to the 50th anniversary. 572 00:47:17.340 --> 00:47:30.300 But then he'll return to it in the very final scene that he writes for Doctor Who, which is Peter Paldi's regeneration, where virtually the last thing he says is, you mustn't tell anyone your name, except maybe children, they can hear it. 573 00:47:30.360 --> 00:47:33.780 I think I think I'm paraphrasing that, but something along those lines. 574 00:47:33.840 --> 00:47:42.300 And it's the fact that he is the showrunner for so long, that makes those things part of the fabric of the show, I think. 575 00:47:50.099 --> 00:47:54.059 All right, so it's time for picks of the week. 576 00:47:54.119 --> 00:47:56.880 So let's start with Johnny. 577 00:47:56.940 --> 00:47:59.820 Well, I have a very... 578 00:47:59.940 --> 00:48:03.059 I have a very quick and efficient pic of the week. 579 00:48:03.119 --> 00:48:11.340 I think that people should go to Wikipedia and remind themselves of the plot of the Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey Niffenega. 580 00:48:11.400 --> 00:48:12.480 I don't think you should read the book. 581 00:48:12.599 --> 00:48:19.679 I remember reading it years ago and I thought it was really uninteresting and cliched and not my thing at all. 582 00:48:19.739 --> 00:48:24.360 But Moffatt's in production or pre-production, I think, for his version of it. 583 00:48:24.420 --> 00:48:29.280 And he's made, and I think now is a good time just to remind yourself about what happens in it. 584 00:48:29.340 --> 00:48:32.099 Spoiler alert you might know already. 585 00:48:32.760 --> 00:48:34.260 True. 586 00:48:34.260 --> 00:48:35.639 Peter? 587 00:48:35.699 --> 00:48:37.619 I have 3 very quick pics of the week. 588 00:48:37.679 --> 00:48:44.400 I think you should go and watch Tomb of the Cybermen to see the original iteration of Miss Deluxe in Kaftan. 589 00:48:45.659 --> 00:48:58.139 Some might say a more entertaining performance, but you know, I think you should also go and watch relics from Star Trek Next Generation to see maybe the original iteration of someone being caught in a transporter buffer and living a life. 590 00:48:58.199 --> 00:49:09.300 But I also think that as we were talking last week about 2 very clever writers and their relationship, Stephen Moffatt and Russell T. Davies. 591 00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:29.820 I think read some of the novelisations that they did of the new series, which came out a year or 2 back because at the time they did a press tour, short-lived press tour, and it was just a joy watching the 2 of them together in the same room, bouncing off each other, and clearly just having the greatest of professional respect for each other's work. 592 00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:34.380 My pick of the week doesn't have that much to do with this, although it kind of does. 593 00:49:34.440 --> 00:49:37.019 I really like what Naomi Klein's just written on Trump. 594 00:49:37.619 --> 00:49:43.980 And it does kind of reflect when we were talking about how an isolated child can behave in their own world. 595 00:49:44.460 --> 00:49:58.980 I think you know where I'm going with that, but she is also a really good writer on the misappropriation of power, both taken away from women and the misuse of power when you have it. 596 00:49:59.099 --> 00:50:06.719 And maybe that's maybe that's a bit broad for this story, but it triggered those thoughts in me, so maybe other people did as well. 597 00:50:06.840 --> 00:50:08.099 Now, I really like what she's written. 598 00:50:08.159 --> 00:50:10.920 You can just look it up online and, you know, just read a blog on it. 599 00:50:10.980 --> 00:50:11.760 You don't have to buy the book. 600 00:50:11.820 --> 00:50:13.380 I just found it quite interesting. 601 00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:24.840 And there were parallels in this story for me on how it feels to be a child and be alone and that can produce both greatness and empathy and it can also produce the political situation we're in right now. 602 00:50:24.900 --> 00:50:30.539 And Richard does, in fact, turn into, like, this episode of meditation on death because I'd be on board with that. 603 00:50:31.199 --> 00:50:35.159 Well, that is death walks with us at every moment of life. 604 00:50:35.219 --> 00:50:37.619 I think the Moffat's pretty clear on that as well. 605 00:50:37.679 --> 00:50:41.039 Maybe he's saying turn the TV off and go and play in the park. 606 00:50:41.099 --> 00:50:44.460 But then you'll also find out that you take your TV with you. 607 00:50:44.519 --> 00:50:45.659 It's in your head all the time. 608 00:50:46.260 --> 00:50:49.320 So mine does have something to do with this story. 609 00:50:49.440 --> 00:50:57.719 TARDAS A Rutatorum by L. Sandafart, was obviously a years-long project covering all of Doctor Who up until the end of the Matt Smith era. 610 00:50:57.780 --> 00:51:02.940 And because of the way that the River song story was told. 611 00:51:03.179 --> 00:51:08.699 She mixed up the order of the River Song episode. 612 00:51:08.760 --> 00:51:13.739 So they would appear out of sequence chronologically as she was going through the rest of the program. 613 00:51:13.800 --> 00:51:24.900 And so the very, very last Tartar Arudatorium entry was the silence in the Library Forest of the Dead review, not a review essay, and not an essay. 614 00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:27.960 It's exactly 100,000 words long. 615 00:51:28.019 --> 00:51:33.960 And to give you some idea, Pride and Prejudice is 122,000 words long. 616 00:51:34.019 --> 00:51:48.960 So it's novel length and it tells the entire story of Doctor Who as she's discovered it through her travel through all of that entire era of Doctor Who, the 50 years of it, that she covers in that 1st run. 617 00:51:49.019 --> 00:51:50.699 It's really incredible. 618 00:51:50.760 --> 00:51:52.139 It's well worth a read. 619 00:51:52.199 --> 00:51:56.159 And if you don't have time to read all of Tatasu Rudatorum and maybe you don't. 620 00:51:56.219 --> 00:51:58.139 You may have time to read that. 621 00:51:58.199 --> 00:51:59.760 It's really an extraordinary piece of work. 622 00:52:24.960 --> 00:52:31.739 Well, there, listener, that was more emotionally draining than one of our normal episodes, so next week, we're planning to go on holiday. 623 00:52:32.159 --> 00:52:38.820 Not Florana, not Okinos, not Appalapochia, not Zine 4, and not Orphan 55. 624 00:52:39.119 --> 00:52:43.920 Instead, we'll be taking a lovely trip to a diamond planet called Midnight. 625 00:52:43.980 --> 00:52:45.119 We'll see you there. 626 00:52:45.179 --> 00:53:00.840 In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook at FTE Podcast on Twitter, and on our website, Flightthrough Entirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, and Jody into Terra. 627 00:53:00.900 --> 00:53:02.820 Where can people find you, Johnny? 628 00:53:02.880 --> 00:53:07.860 Find me on Twitter at Johnny Spandrel and go and read my blog at RandomHooness.com. 629 00:53:07.920 --> 00:53:08.579 Brilliant. 630 00:53:08.639 --> 00:53:11.820 So until next time, sweet dreams, everyone. 631 00:53:11.880 --> 00:53:14.400 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 632 00:53:14.460 --> 00:53:15.300 Good night. 633 00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:16.019 Good night. 634 00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:16.800 Good then. 635 00:53:19.920 --> 00:53:24.360 That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffith, Johnny Spandrel, and Richard Stone. 636 00:53:24.420 --> 00:53:27.960 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings Performance by Jane Orberg. 637 00:53:28.019 --> 00:53:29.880 This episode, our new brigadier. 638 00:53:29.940 --> 00:53:33.780 It was recorded on the 23rd of February 2020 and released on the 10th of May. 639 00:53:34.139 --> 00:53:42.059 And from all of us, congratulations to Father of the podcast, Brendan, and his new husband, Rod, on their wedding last Friday. 640 00:53:42.119 --> 00:53:51.300 After all, love in all its forms is the most powerful weapon we have, because love is a form of hope, and like hope, love abides in the face of everything. 641 00:53:52.380 --> 00:53:54.360 A 1000 words. 642 00:53:54.420 --> 00:53:54.719 Wow. 643 00:53:54.780 --> 00:53:57.119 Certainly better than Pride and Prejudice. 644 00:53:57.179 --> 00:53:59.219 Oh, yeah. 645 00:53:59.940 --> 00:54:01.739 No zombies. 646 00:54:01.860 --> 00:54:03.659 Shall I just go and strangle a dog? 647 00:54:03.719 --> 00:54:04.679 No, I think that was okay. 648 00:54:04.739 --> 00:54:05.940 Lived a full life. 649 00:54:09.000 --> 00:54:11.460 People said the same about Dodo. 650 00:54:11.519 --> 00:54:13.440 She was just strangle her. 651 00:54:13.500 --> 00:54:15.599 She lived, you know, a full life for 19 episodes. 652 00:54:15.659 --> 00:54:18.780 I suddenly realised this week that Dodo and Ace are the same character. 653 00:54:18.840 --> 00:54:20.880 Where'd you get that? 654 00:54:20.880 --> 00:54:22.619 I like it, but very much. 655 00:54:22.679 --> 00:54:23.639 Oh, they're there. 656 00:54:23.639 --> 00:54:25.559 They're cockney orphans. 657 00:54:25.619 --> 00:54:26.639 They're straight kids. 658 00:54:26.699 --> 00:54:27.840 Both called Dorothea. 659 00:54:27.900 --> 00:54:28.980 I've called Dorothy. 660 00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:31.139 Oh, no, so... 661 00:54:31.199 --> 00:54:32.579 I wonder if that was deliberate. 662 00:54:34.860 --> 00:54:36.360 Go away. 663 00:54:36.420 --> 00:54:37.440 Nuh-uh. 664 00:54:37.500 --> 00:54:38.699 No. 665 00:54:38.760 --> 00:54:40.559 I mean I really want that to be true. 666 00:54:40.619 --> 00:54:42.659 But I'm not seeing it. 667 00:54:42.719 --> 00:54:50.639 I'm remembering Sophie Eldred's essay, well, piece she wrote for Fanderson when no one had ever heard of him, and the show was forgotten, even the fans weren't watching it. 668 00:54:50.699 --> 00:54:52.500 But she was a member of Fanderson. 669 00:54:52.500 --> 00:54:54.179 It's, I'm mean, sharing it. great. 670 00:54:54.239 --> 00:54:56.940 Nothing up in your class being on Kelly. 671 00:54:57.000 --> 00:54:59.400 Your Sophie Aldrin impersonation is uncanny. 672 00:54:59.519 --> 00:55:03.059 Well, you saw that DVD, which is going to run much more up a middle class. 673 00:55:03.119 --> 00:55:05.340 Yeah, she does that. 674 00:55:05.400 --> 00:55:08.280 Actually, she does actually say it on one of the fucking Indians. 675 00:55:08.340 --> 00:55:10.380 I've sort of hated her forever because... 676 00:55:10.500 --> 00:55:13.380 Oh, she's a shallow, silly girl. 677 00:55:13.440 --> 00:55:16.320 But she, although therefore, a lot of fun to play with. 678 00:55:16.679 --> 00:55:23.219 Yeah, she, she, um, it was, that's why the Carmos stories are great because they are just fans making it for themselves. 679 00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:27.960 But I wouldn't be surprised Carl would probably be dark and evil enough to do it. 680 00:55:28.019 --> 00:55:36.539 Let me let me can we just go through this incredibly quickly before the dog barks again. because she hasn't been fed and it's 4 and that's why she's barking. 681 00:55:36.599 --> 00:55:37.199 She won't stop. 682 00:55:37.260 --> 00:55:39.239 Yeah, it's nearly five. 683 00:55:39.300 --> 00:55:39.900 Okay.