WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:43:35

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Hello and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast, which is likely to explode like glissal trinitrate.

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I am Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm a soggy mess on the floor.

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We're in we're actually in Richard's home, and that's why he's like that.

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But it's also because today we have to discuss the space pirates.

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And the Wargames.

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So we're going to head towards Alpha Beacon now.

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There are lots of space Rs with the space pirates.

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Now, Nathan, I believe this was yours.

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I think this one is, and this you're welcome to it.

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This is a bit of a historic one because it's actually the last Doctor Who story to be completely broadcast in the UK before I was born.

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Oh.

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So this is really my episode.

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It's an episode that much like Christmas celebrates the birth of Jesus, this episode celebrates my own birth.

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Our Doctor Who got good after you were born.

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Or cancelled, perhaps.

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So I've done a missing episode update before.

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And gosh, this is a missing story, isn't it?

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This is the last story where any of the episodes are missing.

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Five out of the 6 are gone from the archives.

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And the only one we have is episode 2 and episode 2 is shot in the studio on 35 millimetre film.

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Is that a thing?

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believe that's correct.

25
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And so that it's thought that that's why that episode was retained for kind of historic sort of purposes.

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Yeah.

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Another couple of interesting factoids about the missing status of this episode.

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First of all, a copy of the episode was recovered from a private collector actually recorded off the television on an early video recorder.

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It's the earliest known example of a terrestrial video recording of Doctor Who, this episode, episode 2, and the other thing is the current rumour on the whole Philip Morris missing episode search is the reason that we haven't had any more episodes returned and released is because they're actually trying to lose episodes one and 3 through 6 of the Space Pirates.

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Yeah, well, fair enough.

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But so what we do have, and everyone knows this, I think, that we have full soundtracks of all of the missing episodes, thanks to dedicated geeks who used to sit in front of the telly with a, you know, like a, a cassette recording, family denying children.

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Yes.

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They would send that everyone...

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They would said everyone from the room, close all the doors and windows.

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Do you remember doing that thought?

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I was doing that on pyramid of Mars.

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Actually, there's only one.

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And yesterday, everyone, shut up, be quiet. to be quiet, it's very important that I understand exactly how much of a plaything.

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So tech Tom is intended to be in this.

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I remember I remember once... recording one of the Tom Bakers we didn't already have during the 80s repeats.

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My nan was visiting and we set the VCR to record.

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And that wasn't Queen Zangxia, that would be a bit.

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I think it might have been hons of normal.

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But as we were recording, um, I turned to my nan and said something, it was such, you can't talk while it's recording and I had to explain that no nan video recorders don't work that way.

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But no, but that's the thing.

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She, because it was important to me.

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She just didn't say a word.

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Yeah, which was absolutely good.

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Also that she was in apoplexy trying to work out what the hell you had on TV.

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Cause of Nimon?

51
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I only just remember that.

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That's really nice because she passed away about a year ago.

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So that's a really nice memory.

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Yay.

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Thank you, space pirates.

56
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Wow, you did something nice.

57
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Yeah, well, I think we're done then, really.

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Yeah, we are.

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The rest of us.

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So I actually found that the surviving soundtrack is actually not very good.

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It seems sort of muddy and poor and everyone's doing a sort of crummy accent and so it makes the dialogue very hard to understand.

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And there are no telly snaps.

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So John Cure, who was responsible for the tele snaps, wasn't engaged.

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And there's a whole character.

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Madeline Isigri's father who is rediscovered spoiler alert in sort of episode 5 or something.

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There are no photographs of him at all.

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I really hope he's wearing that aluminium bakolite wig that she's wearing as well.

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He's got his own... version.

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It's an organised.

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From the boat, from the Argos, from the boat, from Jason's ship.

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No, no, it's model from the same wood.

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Oh, it's the same.

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From the UK mail order chain.

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It's 2 shows, isn't it?

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And I like reading like the one of the shows, which is what would happen if all of Kubrick fanboys just had 2001 come out and just said, that's it.

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SF is about spaceships moving inexorably, i.e. bloody slowly, across the screen, harshly lit from one point because that's what the Apollo shots we were getting Apollo 8 has just gone off, hasn't it, to do?

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We'll be talking about the last week doing its rectation around it.

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So it's really just for fanboys who love models.

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It's a straight boys show, this one.

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It's all guns and no frocks, as you might have said.

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In spite of that, I actually really liked episode one, and I think that the model work is amazingly strong.

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Yeah, I love it.

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For the model work.

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And we still have those clips, of course, we have all the film trims of the model work and people crawling out outside Alpha Bean. under tumble dries in space.

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And loose cannon does a great job.

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There's some CG and all of that sort of thing.

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Like they have to go to a lot of work.

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And so the pirates, so the pirates are raiding these space beacon things that are made of argonite. which is the most valuable substance in the universe.

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I'd like to get back to that because I'm interested in exploring the question of how many most valuable substances in the universe there are.

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Well, it's all a matter of time period, isn't it?

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That's so amazing that this is so Star Trek, but they really hadn't seen Trek yet.

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No, Star Trek did not premiere in the UK until after the war games.

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It took, I think I mentioned last podcast.

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It took Doctor Who slot.

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Yeah, 1970.

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It was on on a Christmas break and it was there because colour was being premiered by BBC.

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Yeah, not many people.

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Oh, yeah, exactly, not me.

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So you know what?

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It's quite possible that Derek Sherwin may have known it was coming up and kind of went, oh, let's do space first.

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Although I like Richard's idea that it is very like 2001.

102
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Yeah, I think it's jumping on Kubrick.

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But that's only visually.

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The pitch was pirates in space.

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We haven't done that yet.

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But visually these models are great.

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So there's no stars in the background, so it looks a little bit less fake.

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The pirates who are raiding these space satellite things have something that looks like very predatory and black.

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It's a really, really cool model.

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And then the space core people who are following them have this fantastically sort of flat model thing, which I've never seen anything quite like, and all of that stuff looks really good.

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And in the 1st episode.

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The 1st episode just has 3 sequences where they raid one of these space stations and it's basically the same footage over and over again.

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But I still found it sort of reasonably gripping and entertaining and you want to do it 3 times because the 3rd time it subverted some change in the pattern, you know, the doctrine and things are finally on board.

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But I actually thought that that was quite good.

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And I, you know, this is the last story that I'd never seen.

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I hadn't seen it before the podcast.

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Now that I've seen it, I've seen every Doctor Who story, even the ones that don't exist.

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You know, if you'd like to touch the hem of my robe, you could email the podcast.

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It is a very petching shape of shot.

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Yes, that's all.

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Yeah, so that 1st episode, I think, is quite entertaining.

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But the big striking thing is, and what I'd like to explore, in this sort of part of the podcast, is why does everyone hate this?

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You know, this is one of the most loathed Doctor Who stories.

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And part of it might be, it takes 15 minutes for the TARDIS to appear.

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See, for me, it's not just that it takes 15 minutes for the TARDIS to appear.

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It's that the doctor, Jamie and Zoe then spend the next 6 episodes running into a room where the door is then locked behind them and they stay there for a little while.

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So the 1st 2 episodes, they're locked on the beacon.

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And then they're locked on the lids.

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And then they're locked in a room and discovered Dana Secri.

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And then they're locked in the office with Madeline and then they're locked here and then they're locked underneath the spaceship and it's going to burn the doctor to death.

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You know, it's all about them getting locked up somewhere while the plot is happening in the next room.

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Yeah.

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And that's, that's really my thing about this.

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So there's a production reason for it isn't there?

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I mean, we're talking about the last episode, yes, but so the production, in the last episode, they're not, they are actually in it surprisingly a lot, but they're not in the studio.

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They're all pre-recorded because they're off doing location work for war games during episode 6 on Brighton Tip.

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But there's a surprising amount of them still in it.

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But I mean, basically the production issue here is that Pat is complaining about the workload.

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And he set the odd episode off unconscious sort of over the years, but, you know, we saw that the mind robber episodes were all sort of 20 minutes long rather than sort of 25 minutes to reduce his workload.

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He'd been complaining a lot.

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And so he is really peripheral to the plot.

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And I just think, you know, this isn't the last time it will happen and it's not the last time it'll happen in a Bob Holmes script.

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But the rest of the cast aren't really strong or interesting enough to, um, to hold, you know, to make the rest of it entertaining, I think. absolutely.

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I mean, some of them are not.

145
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Lisa Danielli, as Madalena see Greek, is very strong.

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Dudley Foster as Cavot.

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I mean, Dudley Foster strong in everything.

148
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But 2 strong characters who only meet towards the back end of the story don't really add to that.

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And you certainly have memorable characters in this.

150
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But when I say memorable.

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I'm talking about Milo Clancy.

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Kevin is a genuine sadist.

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And the thing is, we're the only surviving episodes, you don't get to see him.

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So we forget that there's that menace, the unspoken and unpresent character all the way through.

155
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He's a monster villain.

156
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Oh, he's great.

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And, um, our show, we always come back to, and I will be talking about more later this podcast, The Avengers.

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He had just played a very good villain in that, in the very memorable episode, something nasty in the nursery, in which he ran...

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He was running a school for nannies. and his name was goat.

160
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So he was nanny goat.

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But he was very menacing in that.

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He was so, so stupid.

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There would be coats in that one too.

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Woo-hoo.

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Yeah, yes.

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Well, on the cutting real floor, though, so there's a little bit of it, yeah.

167
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And then she turns up and take me to your leader, but we're not only getting ahead of us.

168
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I'm getting completely...

169
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But that's how boring this episode.

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No, well, it sort of isn't a decent, though. boring because we don't get to see a lot of it.

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I think that, you know, they say, oh, the acting is totally acting as dull. one of those great stories where you don't get long tracks of info dump.

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You get 2 tracks, but keeping the doctor out of it for episode one means that the exposition's all done for us.

173
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So he doesn't have to find out.

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It's a nicely, a nicely done way of it.

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The people writing this behind it, and Terrence, especially, knew the tricks.

176
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Actually, this is the thing.

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Terence is seen as kind of, well, he's not elevated, maybe even, you know, to the ranks of Bob Holmes and such like, and you both had the pleasure of meeting him this last week, didn't you?

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Well, seeing it. you know, looking at him.

179
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But hearing at you.

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You met me while I was dressed as Katie Manning and was just completely speechless.

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Yes.

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And it prompted you.

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It prompted Gary Russell to say, well, Terrence, welcome to Australia.

184
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With a Sid Jones laugh, yeah.

185
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But you see, Terence is a bit of a genius because just because he's so quick and he's so adroid at what he does, it kinds of gets him alive.

186
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But he knows what he's doing.

187
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So this thing, yes, sure, it's a space western space pirate thing, but it's not poor in a way that it could have been.

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We got a lot more pace than gunfighters, and we really love gunfighters.

189
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I think it's slow.

190
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It's Bob Holmes, though.

191
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I mean, Terrence is scripted at it, but it is a Bob Holmes script.

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And it does have a lot of hallmarks of the Bob Holmes script.

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I mean, it is quite similar to Power of Kroll, and very, very similar to the case of Andrazani.

194
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Yeah, yeah, I've got this theory that he pretty much does every, he had this, this story is one he wanted to write and one he was passionate about.

195
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So he rewrote it about every 10 years, in my opinion.

196
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So case of Andrazani has like 2 main planets, like Andrazani, Matron Minor, like Delta Magna and the 5th moon of Delta Magnet, you know, in Power of Kroll.

197
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The 2 planets are called Lobos and Tar, and I never actually managed to work out on which one we were.

198
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No, it's very different time. isn't it?

199
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It's Coast Avengers.

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Yeah, no, this is what this is what, thank you for joining us.

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So then there's Spectrox and Argonite, the most valuable substance in the universe.

202
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And of course, meat bane.

203
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Yes, meat.

204
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My mind was just wondering, because I was thinking, honestly, it's actually just the adventures of General Chilek, isn't it?

205
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Coast Adventures aren't, but that is, if you think, I'm trying to remember what the name is.

206
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Her Mac.

207
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Hermac is seen as, you know, really a dull blunderer, but actually he's the worst kind of villain, because he's a stupid man and a bureaucratic stupid man who thinks he's clever. and has other people agreeing with him. is quite remarkable, and I say that in a way, as in, he is to be remarked on because, as of course, played by legend Jack May, he's got that wonderful voice and is possibly most famous to listeners as Igor in Count Duckular.

208
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And also Gark bit the head waiter in the TV adaptation of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

209
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What I find so remarkable about his performance is he plays it completely straight.

210
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And the problem is when you're doing that with Jack May's voice, sir.

211
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It comes off as unintentionally comedic.

212
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And the thing is, this could have been quite a darkly comedic role if you had have had an actor who was playing Hermac, as if Hermac takes himself seriously, but no one else takes him seriously.

213
00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:13.980
But Jack May takes it entirely seriously.

214
00:15:13.980 --> 00:15:18.179
And it's really jarring with Donald G, who gives a more naturalistic performance.

215
00:15:18.539 --> 00:15:20.580
Except for his accent.

216
00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:22.799
Oh, but you can't really blame him for that.

217
00:15:22.860 --> 00:15:24.960
Yeah, I think it's the accents that let this.

218
00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:32.879
It's not Michael Heart's direction and it's just, that's kind of how that British actors in the late 60s, which is the greatest distance we have.

219
00:15:33.179 --> 00:15:34.200
It's interesting watching these things.

220
00:15:34.259 --> 00:15:36.600
There's still a sense of a media seat for us, isn't there?

221
00:15:36.659 --> 00:15:37.919
Because it's the familiar.

222
00:15:37.980 --> 00:15:39.960
But if we watch anything else from that period.

223
00:15:40.019 --> 00:15:41.519
It's so dated.

224
00:15:41.580 --> 00:15:46.500
Anything, any film you watch from this time, all of which were 3 hours long with 2 intermissions.

225
00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:51.419
Everybody was doing long, long, long pictures at this stage in cinema.

226
00:15:51.480 --> 00:15:58.559
Yeah, well, Doctor Who was yet to really have a good American accent that I can think of off top of my head.

227
00:15:58.620 --> 00:16:00.299
You know, you had Captain Hopper.

228
00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:01.200
Yeah.

229
00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:04.919
I think it's written accents, you have the gunfighters, but as you say, Richard, that was just part of...

230
00:16:04.980 --> 00:16:06.000
Did you watch him another show?

231
00:16:06.059 --> 00:16:16.440
Other than Dennis Spooner's things for ITC, like the champions, which hadn't premiered yet, only if you're watching BBC or standard ITV shows, you were hearing these kinds of American accents.

232
00:16:16.500 --> 00:16:18.299
It's what they thought Americans sounded like.

233
00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:18.899
Yeah.

234
00:16:18.899 --> 00:16:20.460
As far as the British year went.

235
00:16:20.519 --> 00:16:21.539
And the Australians were the same.

236
00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:24.779
Have you seen any Australian shows from like 60s?

237
00:16:24.840 --> 00:16:28.259
The Skippy comes to mind, but there are a lot of other spy shows.

238
00:16:28.379 --> 00:16:30.360
All those American plant smugglers.

239
00:16:30.419 --> 00:16:31.980
Yeah, the ones.

240
00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:35.820
Didn't General Putler was an American or Canadian.

241
00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:37.679
But he wasn't actually an American.

242
00:16:37.740 --> 00:16:38.580
Yeah, I don't know.

243
00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:39.659
That sounds terrible.

244
00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:44.759
So why do we hate this?

245
00:16:44.820 --> 00:16:46.860
I mean, is it just forgotten?

246
00:16:46.980 --> 00:16:47.759
Because we can't see it.

247
00:16:47.820 --> 00:16:57.720
It's like the smugglers where no one cares about it because no one's really seen it and it's not that exciting or is there an actual reason to really not like it?

248
00:16:57.779 --> 00:17:02.820
I think it is just the reasons we mentioned, but the doctor is not really involved in the plot.

249
00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:07.140
The plot itself is quite repetitive and the characters are memorable.

250
00:17:07.619 --> 00:17:09.839
But not necessarily good.

251
00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:36.299
It's certainly the beginning of Robert Holmes writing wonderful, strong, memorable characters, which in just 2 stories time, he's going to really crystalise into writing a killer script, but on this occasion, It just doesn't quite work, and that could be the rushed commissioning of it because much like the crotons, his 1st script, this replaced a script which fell through at the last minute called the Dream Spinners.

252
00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:44.880
Yeah, and that's right, because the Impersonators was Mac Hogg's 4 part of for the, for what was going to come up as Paddy's last story, wasn't it?

253
00:17:44.940 --> 00:17:50.279
Yes, that's right So things were falling through there, which is why we get a 10 part finale for Pat.

254
00:17:50.339 --> 00:17:57.000
Yeah, 2 stories were meant to be there, which fell through. invaders from Mars, which ended up being ambassadors of death, Whittaker's last script.

255
00:17:57.059 --> 00:17:57.180
Right.

256
00:17:57.180 --> 00:18:11.039
And also something which fell through in either the Space Pirate slot or more likely the 1st 6 episodes of the War Games was the Laird of the Crimin, which was...

257
00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:12.480
Mervin Hazman and Henry Lincoln.

258
00:18:12.539 --> 00:18:14.880
And were they still speaking to anyone at that moment?

259
00:18:14.940 --> 00:18:17.339
You see, that that actually fell through quite early.

260
00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:33.299
But that had been intended as the way to write Phraser out was going to be a six-part story set at the McQrimon Castle with the Yeti attacking and Jamie would have to then stay behind and become the laird of the McCrimon.

261
00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:38.220
So he would go back and he would succeed his father. love to see that.

262
00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:43.680
Don't you think it would have been an allegory about why war and hatefulness are really good?

263
00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:46.740
If it was by then.

264
00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:48.299
Well, it's not...

265
00:18:50.099 --> 00:18:52.380
This is more about civil war.

266
00:18:52.380 --> 00:18:56.099
Actually, yeah, and I think in a in a pressing way, it would have been about Scottish referendum.

267
00:18:56.160 --> 00:18:57.240
Yeah.

268
00:18:57.240 --> 00:18:58.920
I don't think that would have been too bad.

269
00:18:58.980 --> 00:19:00.779
I really like the 2 yeti stories they did.

270
00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:03.299
Yeah, it's a shame we even get this.

271
00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:07.980
I believe they were going to be cows who turned into yetis in that story.

272
00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:09.299
Oh my god.

273
00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:11.279
So they would have...

274
00:19:11.339 --> 00:19:21.839
It would have been bovine yetis because, of course, the Macrimons had pastures and had casual and they were going to arrive in episode one and people will be saying, oh, the cows are actually very strange.

275
00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:26.279
And, you know, end of episode one would have been the cows storming the castle.

276
00:19:26.339 --> 00:19:28.019
That would have been great.

277
00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:37.500
I mean, played by Tim Brooke Taylor and Bill Oddie in the same Heffelump. pantomime dromedary skin, they weren't a goodies.

278
00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:40.740
They did start to make the outfit, which was later remade into the market.

279
00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:41.339
So there he was.

280
00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:42.660
Really?

281
00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:47.579
You see, already this sounds more entertaining than a space pirate. why are we talking militant cows?

282
00:19:47.640 --> 00:19:50.039
Why aren't we talking about the space pirates?

283
00:19:50.099 --> 00:19:54.240
So, I mean, I think you just asked the right question.

284
00:19:55.079 --> 00:19:56.519
Yeah.

285
00:19:56.579 --> 00:19:58.619
What do you think, Richard?

286
00:19:58.680 --> 00:20:00.720
I mean, why do you think we hate this?

287
00:20:00.779 --> 00:20:01.500
You don't.

288
00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:02.759
I don't.

289
00:20:02.819 --> 00:20:06.839
And I've got average viewings of 5.5, 5.7 all the rest of it.

290
00:20:06.900 --> 00:20:09.359
So it did a lot better than, you know, things around.

291
00:20:09.420 --> 00:20:13.500
I think that's because it had space shots that might have been, you know, that premiered.

292
00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:15.059
The show did get publicity.

293
00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:17.819
So you were looking at little picks and bits on BBC.

294
00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:18.779
Oh, space.

295
00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:19.440
It was a big thing.

296
00:20:19.500 --> 00:20:20.579
It's got space in the title.

297
00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:21.420
So we'll watch that.

298
00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:23.700
I just think it's Bob Holmes.

299
00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:27.779
And he got a lot of work from them because he had great fresh ideas and all the rest of it.

300
00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:34.500
But basically he does piss stakes and usually they work really brilliantly because the humour is concerted within the story.

301
00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:41.099
It works within the, but here, when he kind of sends up what he's doing, I don't think it ever works as well.

302
00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:42.359
And he's done that a few times.

303
00:20:42.420 --> 00:20:43.859
He did it with the 2 doctors.

304
00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:48.960
When he sits above and beyond the narrative and makes fun of what he's doing.

305
00:20:49.019 --> 00:20:50.819
I don't think it's ever entirely successful.

306
00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:53.099
And my gut feeling is that's what he was doing with this one.

307
00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:56.099
Sandifer kind of has that theory as well.

308
00:20:56.160 --> 00:21:07.140
He sort of thinks that occasionally what Bob Holmes will do is give the audience what they want. you know, in order to show them choke on it.

309
00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:07.980
Yeah, that's right.

310
00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:13.259
In order to show them that and, you know, power of Kroll again, which is pretty widely hated.

311
00:21:13.319 --> 00:21:14.880
I love to.

312
00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:16.380
I like it too.

313
00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:18.059
And again, I think it's a remake of this.

314
00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:28.500
It's all of that sort of thing where, you know, the evil corporation is in league with the people who look like they're going to undermine the evil corporation and you get that in all 3 of these stories.

315
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:32.160
And like even sidelining the doctor is common to all 3 of them.

316
00:21:32.220 --> 00:21:33.599
They are really so similar.

317
00:21:33.660 --> 00:21:34.440
Absolutely.

318
00:21:34.500 --> 00:21:36.119
And that's the thing.

319
00:21:36.180 --> 00:21:46.799
I do think that when he revisits this story for Power Kroll in 1978 or almost 10 years after, and then again for Caves Van Rosani, 6 years after that, it improves each time he does it.

320
00:21:46.859 --> 00:21:54.000
And it is, of course, such a shame that he passed away when he did in 1986.

321
00:21:54.180 --> 00:21:54.900
It would have been wonderful.

322
00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:59.160
He was a contemporary, I think, slightly older than Terence Sticks.

323
00:21:59.220 --> 00:22:00.240
He could still be with us today.

324
00:22:00.299 --> 00:22:02.880
It's such a shame that he did pass away.

325
00:22:02.940 --> 00:22:05.640
But I also think it's a shame that he couldn't revisit this story again.

326
00:22:05.700 --> 00:22:12.779
Another story I compare it to is Kevin McClory constantly wanting to revisit Thunderball, the James Bond film.

327
00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:14.579
So he revisits us, never seen ever again.

328
00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:16.259
She's only got the rights to one story.

329
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:22.619
He was going to try again with Warhead 2000 featuring Timothy Dalton, which never got off the ground.

330
00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:28.140
And I don't think that's too successful because he Kevin McClory was so fixated on I have the rights to this story.

331
00:22:28.259 --> 00:22:32.819
It was more about having the rights than had in the story, whereas Bob Holmes.

332
00:22:33.299 --> 00:22:37.619
Space Pirates, Power of Kroll may not be the best stories.

333
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:43.259
And I would argue Caves of Andrazani is not a great Doctor Who story, controversial, but will get there.

334
00:22:43.319 --> 00:22:46.079
But...

335
00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:46.740
Great story though.

336
00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:48.299
It's just a great Blake sentence story.

337
00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:49.920
But that's the thing.

338
00:22:49.980 --> 00:22:55.859
Robert Holmes passion for storytelling comes through in this, despite all, it's many, many, many, many, many, many flaws.

339
00:22:56.220 --> 00:23:03.180
You can tell Robert Holmes is having great fun writing the space pirates, even if he's just saying, right, you've given me a shopping list.

340
00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:04.440
I don't want to shop for this.

341
00:23:04.500 --> 00:23:06.420
You want chocolate?

342
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:06.900
Fine.

343
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:10.440
I'm going to get you chocolate with chillies and eggshells embedded in it.

344
00:23:10.500 --> 00:23:13.079
That's what that's what I get from the story.

345
00:23:13.140 --> 00:23:17.579
And on that level, I can enjoy it because it's Robert Holmes saying, you want to give me 2 weeks to writers?

346
00:23:17.579 --> 00:23:18.779
Fine here.

347
00:23:19.079 --> 00:23:22.140
Yeah, it's the rushing at the end of the season.

348
00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:24.180
I think we just had too much of the same thing for too long.

349
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:32.519
Well, I mean, I actually think season 6 has been more varied and interesting than season 5 and you're going to talk about...

350
00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:33.480
I'm reminding you.

351
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:34.140
Yes.

352
00:23:34.140 --> 00:23:36.000
Foreshadowing.

353
00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:41.220
Because I, I mean, I've, I didn't like season 5 until the very end.

354
00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:45.000
I thought the very end of season 5 is where they get the base under siege formula, right?

355
00:23:45.059 --> 00:23:46.680
This season...

356
00:23:46.740 --> 00:23:48.299
Yeah, like in Fury and Wheel.

357
00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:54.180
But this season, I think, has at least tried to do some of the crazy things that we got in the heart and all era.

358
00:23:54.240 --> 00:23:55.980
And I kind of like that.

359
00:23:56.160 --> 00:23:58.019
I don't think this comes off.

360
00:23:58.079 --> 00:23:59.400
I didn't find it very entertaining.

361
00:23:59.460 --> 00:24:02.700
Can I venture to use the word tiresome to describe it?

362
00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:05.039
I would have never thought you'd describe it.

363
00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:07.980
I think it would have really worked as a Tom story.

364
00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:10.619
Well, I sort of had a lot of fun with this.

365
00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:18.599
Yeah, I would have, and it would have been nice to have someone who wasn't just eye-gougingly terrible playing Milo Clancy.

366
00:24:18.660 --> 00:24:21.900
I mean, I really think he is just appallingly bad.

367
00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:25.680
I think that's a genuine piece of actual human hair on his face.

368
00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:29.279
Everything looks like it's been thrown across the room.

369
00:24:29.339 --> 00:24:30.299
Yeah, awful.

370
00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:31.859
Just awful, shockingly bad.

371
00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:33.119
And that accent and all of that.

372
00:24:33.180 --> 00:24:34.980
And it's not a misconceived character.

373
00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:51.240
You know, we'll see Firefly takes the well worn tropes of the Western and applies them to a sort of space opera in a way that this attempts to, but it does it in a way that doesn't make you want to sort of, you know, beat your head against the wall while it's on, you know?

374
00:24:51.299 --> 00:24:54.480
So it's not that the characters misconceived at all.

375
00:24:54.539 --> 00:25:02.220
It is that sort of corn pone down home, crummy accent that he does and the stupid moustache.

376
00:25:02.279 --> 00:25:07.079
And it's not helped by the fact, you know, again, there's like one photo of him.

377
00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:15.119
You know, so it's the endless looking stupid, you know, over and over again in the recon that we have to put up with.

378
00:25:15.180 --> 00:25:19.079
You know, I realise I haven't really said much positive about this story.

379
00:25:19.140 --> 00:25:26.160
So I will say my big positive for this story, and it's something we commented on in the protons.

380
00:25:26.220 --> 00:25:32.579
We have a far stronger female character written by Robert Holmes in the shape of Madeline Siegrie.

381
00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:33.779
She's a complex character.

382
00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:35.160
She has her own motivations.

383
00:25:35.220 --> 00:25:37.680
She is not truly good and virtuous.

384
00:25:37.740 --> 00:25:39.359
She is not truly evil and horrible.

385
00:25:39.420 --> 00:25:43.920
And I think she is easily the most interesting part in this.

386
00:25:43.980 --> 00:25:48.240
And once again, she has a slightly flirtatious relationship with the doctor.

387
00:25:48.299 --> 00:25:49.980
And it's always...

388
00:25:49.980 --> 00:25:50.819
It's a different thing, isn't it?

389
00:25:50.940 --> 00:25:53.160
I'm assuming she's blonde, even though we can't tell.

390
00:25:53.220 --> 00:25:55.380
But it's always blonde women of a certain age.

391
00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:58.859
You know, that you throw them in.

392
00:25:58.920 --> 00:26:00.420
Yeah.

393
00:26:00.420 --> 00:26:04.019
So, you know, if nothing else, that's a really good thing to come out of the story.

394
00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:05.519
Robert Holmes is writing best for women.

395
00:26:05.579 --> 00:26:06.480
Yeah.

396
00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:08.759
She reminded me a bit of Kraut Tim and...

397
00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:09.720
I was just going to say, yeah.

398
00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:12.000
She's left standing at the end of it.

399
00:26:12.059 --> 00:26:14.099
You know, she's a lady in an office.

400
00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:16.259
She's not quite as fabulous.

401
00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:22.799
Keeps the desk, good. to keep the desk, to own the furniture, which in any divorce is okay. should get the house as well.

402
00:26:22.859 --> 00:26:24.420
I think.

403
00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:26.880
Well, I think she gets the planet, so that's something.

404
00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:28.920
No, no, she goes to prison, don't they?

405
00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:30.539
taking her off for trial.

406
00:26:30.599 --> 00:26:31.500
She gets a big house.

407
00:26:31.559 --> 00:26:32.940
She gets to be in the beach.

408
00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:34.319
Look, I'm sure that'd be nice to her.

409
00:26:34.380 --> 00:26:36.660
Yeah, I'm sure they'd be lenient.

410
00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:39.299
Well, she'd break off bits of her argonite hair.

411
00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:40.980
That ignite hair.

412
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:41.700
What the hell is that?

413
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:42.240
Do we know it?

414
00:26:42.359 --> 00:26:43.319
A secretary has it as well.

415
00:26:43.380 --> 00:26:44.220
I don't know.

416
00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:49.980
I think it's just a status symbol, like, works on a Troy's wigs in Star Trek, the next generation.

417
00:26:50.039 --> 00:26:51.420
Yeah maybe that's it.

418
00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:52.980
It is very strange.

419
00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:54.059
It is very strange.

420
00:26:54.119 --> 00:26:55.799
I think Cornell has a theory.

421
00:26:55.859 --> 00:27:00.599
Yeah, sorry, so it's the status thing I was thinking of, Nigel Baron in next generation.

422
00:27:00.660 --> 00:27:05.819
So it stays simple to look like a washed up Vegas showgirl. science fiction troops.

423
00:27:05.880 --> 00:27:16.859
No, it's either about time or the discontinuity guide that suggests that she's using a head as a kind of showroom for the company's main product. time.

424
00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:20.099
She's a mutual, isn't she?

425
00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:20.880
She is.

426
00:27:20.940 --> 00:27:22.079
She's a proto-mutoid.

427
00:27:22.140 --> 00:27:23.400
Golden mutoid.

428
00:27:23.460 --> 00:27:23.940
Yeah.

429
00:27:23.940 --> 00:27:27.240
When you get to the other side of the board and you get king, there's a mutoid.

430
00:27:27.299 --> 00:27:27.720
That what happens.

431
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:31.740
Okay, you lose your black fibreglass head thing.

432
00:27:31.799 --> 00:27:32.460
Yeah, yeah.

433
00:27:33.180 --> 00:27:36.240
Now you just beat on the blood of script editors.

434
00:27:36.420 --> 00:27:42.420
Well, we've spent a lot of time talking about things that aren't the space pirates.

435
00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:47.220
Look, it's the one I usually give a miss to just because it's a thing.

436
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:49.980
It's a thing at the end of the series and has whizzy spaceships.

437
00:27:49.980 --> 00:27:53.579
And as a boy, I would have loved it had I been watching this season for all the things.

438
00:27:53.640 --> 00:27:54.660
It's for kids.

439
00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:56.640
If you'd been able to see it too, I think.

440
00:27:56.700 --> 00:27:58.500
It doesn't help that you can't see it.

441
00:27:58.559 --> 00:28:00.000
It's totally good for kids.

442
00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:02.099
And it does some clever things.

443
00:28:02.099 --> 00:28:11.460
And but I think what it is, and we're feeling the ennui that Trouton himself was feeling is it's kind of, it's kind of hard to watch these last few stories.

444
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:21.180
I think getting a sense of drudgery that the actor himself is going through is really doing his best and pushing against it and that's never a comfortable thing to watch.

445
00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:32.759
Now, I have heard from a few of you at home, dear listeners, that you actually like to listen to the podcast while you are watching these stories and what we're saying might be putting you off.

446
00:28:32.819 --> 00:28:38.940
Something I am going to recommend is a website called Hooflicks, who do cutdown versions of stories.

447
00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:39.539
Flex.

448
00:28:39.660 --> 00:28:45.599
Sorry, who flicks with an I, not who flexes in that top shot of Matt Smith doing the routes.

449
00:28:45.660 --> 00:28:53.099
I was thinking was it, yes, listen, Hamish, what's his face and Fraser Heinz auditioning self for selfies.

450
00:28:53.099 --> 00:28:53.700
No.

451
00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:55.440
No, but I think we need to span the future.

452
00:28:55.859 --> 00:29:03.839
No, but Hooflix has actually done a 50 minute audio edit of the space pirates to try and tighten it up a bit.

453
00:29:03.900 --> 00:29:07.980
So those of you who don't want to sit through off 6 episodes like we've had to.

454
00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:10.680
I do hardly recommend that and we'll put that in the show notes.

455
00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:17.220
So see, when you said while, I actually thought you meant it the same time that people were watching it and what listening to the podcast.

456
00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:18.599
I have had 2 people say that to me.

457
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:19.740
Jamie Bave.

458
00:29:19.799 --> 00:29:20.640
Hello, Jamie.

459
00:29:20.940 --> 00:29:23.339
So Brent Wilkins.

460
00:29:23.819 --> 00:29:27.240
So I recommend that you get 2 iPod touches.

461
00:29:27.299 --> 00:29:27.960
You know what I mean?

462
00:29:28.019 --> 00:29:32.940
And just play, like, press start at the same time on the who flex version of the park.

463
00:29:32.940 --> 00:29:37.799
And I can't believe that we're not going to go on about the space pirates for another 20 minutes in this episode.

464
00:29:37.799 --> 00:29:41.819
So you could just listen to them at exactly the same time in one in each year.

465
00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:45.779
Well, I suppose what you could do is you could slow us down to about one.4.

466
00:29:45.900 --> 00:29:48.299
Oh, I always listen to the podcast.

467
00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:49.980
I like to savour it.

468
00:29:52.380 --> 00:29:56.579
Yeah, I actually sound like Barry White, the way I listen to the podcast.

469
00:29:57.420 --> 00:29:59.220
That's terrible.

470
00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:01.559
Space Pirates.

471
00:30:01.619 --> 00:30:04.079
I really I've never bothered with it, to be honest with you.

472
00:30:04.140 --> 00:30:05.700
That's why they might have been quieter.

473
00:30:05.759 --> 00:30:06.779
I watched bits of it.

474
00:30:06.839 --> 00:30:09.539
I've sat through sort of, but it's just never grabbed me.

475
00:30:09.599 --> 00:30:11.940
If I was 10, I would have just loved it.

476
00:30:19.380 --> 00:30:21.539
Oh, here we are.

477
00:30:21.960 --> 00:30:24.779
This is, this is a hard one.

478
00:30:24.839 --> 00:30:25.920
It is, it is.

479
00:30:25.980 --> 00:30:27.059
It's hard because it's absurd.

480
00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:30.299
Do you know what we're saying with this one, boys and girls, sitting amongst me?

481
00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:40.920
This isn't just about the end of Patrick Troughton's reign of Doctor Who, and I think Nathan, you have something to say about what it actually also is about the end, maybe or...

482
00:30:40.980 --> 00:30:42.599
Oh, it's about the end of the show, isn't it?

483
00:30:42.660 --> 00:30:44.039
Yeah, I cancelled.

484
00:30:44.099 --> 00:30:51.180
I was really wanting to oppose you on that one and say, no, it's about the beginning of a show called Doctor Who's spelt fully Doctor Who.

485
00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:54.359
It's last time we see DR dot on the credits.

486
00:30:54.420 --> 00:31:06.779
But I actually think it's about the death of the 60s, and the death of the revolution, and Patrick being the sinequanon, the 5th element of the revolution of what it is to be a 60s revolutionary.

487
00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:12.720
The doctor has always been expect, except perhaps with Billy, has always been the zeitgeist of the time.

488
00:31:12.779 --> 00:31:14.220
And he will be from now on.

489
00:31:14.279 --> 00:31:19.740
He's of the period that it's actually filmed in whatever you want to say about him being timeless.

490
00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:23.819
He's of even down to his clothes, his what he is in the period that it's made.

491
00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:29.700
I think even Billy is, you know, in the war machines, he fits into the Inferno.

492
00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:32.579
He loves Vicki, who's, you know, that symbol of youth revolution.

493
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:34.200
Yeah, he's very youthful.

494
00:31:34.259 --> 00:31:36.660
But Billy's an anti-hero and he belongs out of time.

495
00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:40.619
He is a grandfather, because we mentioned before, grandparents in the 60s did look like that.

496
00:31:40.680 --> 00:31:41.880
They were rewarding children.

497
00:31:41.940 --> 00:31:44.759
This one's about how this the revolution didn't work.

498
00:31:44.819 --> 00:31:46.380
It didn't come across.

499
00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:47.339
It didn't happen.

500
00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:49.559
San Francisco fell apart.

501
00:31:50.160 --> 00:32:00.119
We'll talk about what Ronald Reagan as governor of California was doing with riot squads and bullets, firing into the crowd.

502
00:32:00.180 --> 00:32:01.799
I don't know why it doesn't get a mention now.

503
00:32:01.859 --> 00:32:06.839
We talk about how harsh the some police are now with student uprisings.

504
00:32:06.900 --> 00:32:11.339
This is when it was actually going on in the US and in the UK as well there were.

505
00:32:11.460 --> 00:32:13.859
There were difficulties at the beginnings of race violence.

506
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:15.180
But yeah, we've got this right here.

507
00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:20.460
And it does it against a backdrop of various wars and wars are about revolution.

508
00:32:20.519 --> 00:32:27.299
Wars are about wanting to take what one country or one community has and change it to what you have.

509
00:32:27.420 --> 00:32:29.940
You know, so the big one we've got here.

510
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:36.359
You would hope so, except that this one's about a war that everyone agreed by this stage was the most awful time.

511
00:32:36.420 --> 00:32:42.000
It was to this point, it was the most carnage the most lives lost in the most horrendous way.

512
00:32:42.059 --> 00:32:47.519
Up until this point, I suspect still now. unless we're including Afghanistan.

513
00:32:47.640 --> 00:32:49.740
No, no, I mean, you're talking this is it.

514
00:32:49.740 --> 00:32:50.819
Yeah, this is it.

515
00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:52.680
You weren't allowed.

516
00:32:52.740 --> 00:32:54.119
The British censors.

517
00:32:54.180 --> 00:33:01.500
I was only up until the 50s and then up until the 30s, only poetry was allowed to be published about this war.

518
00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:08.400
Plays only started and comment was in the 50s and dad's army hadn't appeared on TV yet.

519
00:33:08.460 --> 00:33:15.720
The only humourous response, if you can like it, the only ironic response as were to the Second World War, this was still seen as too awful.

520
00:33:15.779 --> 00:33:22.680
I think it's really extraordinary and brave to be setting the end of Doctor Who, if you like. at a point where there's no compromise.

521
00:33:22.740 --> 00:33:23.700
What does Paddy say?

522
00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:24.660
Let's get out of here.

523
00:33:24.839 --> 00:33:28.559
Yeah, he doesn't attempt to come in and save anything.

524
00:33:28.619 --> 00:33:43.859
I think it's very interesting that this season starts with one producer who commissioned a story about how wonderful war is and we must find everyone and it ends with another producer. having this 10 episode story talk about how horrible war is.

525
00:33:44.160 --> 00:33:47.640
So can we can we talk about how it starts?

526
00:33:47.700 --> 00:33:52.740
Like we arrive in the middle of World War one.

527
00:33:52.799 --> 00:34:02.519
We see barbed wire in just about the 1st shot and there's bombs and gunfire and a period ambulance, we're very, very quickly in the 1st World War.

528
00:34:02.579 --> 00:34:07.019
But it's actually the 1st time that the TARDIS has ever landed in 20th century. history.

529
00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:07.859
I right about that?

530
00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:08.699
Yes.

531
00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:11.400
So we've never been...

532
00:34:11.460 --> 00:34:12.599
Oh, with one exception.

533
00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:20.579
The Feast of Stephen, but it's the 1st time we've had a proper story, said in 20th century history, where knowledge of huge throwaway gags.

534
00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:20.940
Yes.

535
00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:21.599
Okay.

536
00:34:21.719 --> 00:34:26.159
But it's clear sort of straight away that we actually aren't really sure where we are.

537
00:34:26.219 --> 00:34:32.280
So like the gorgeously, fabulously posh lady Jennifer who's driving the ambulance.

538
00:34:32.340 --> 00:34:34.500
She isn't sure where we are.

539
00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:37.800
You know, the doctor says that we're apparently on earth.

540
00:34:37.860 --> 00:34:42.719
And there are just these quiet hints that we might not be in on earth at all.

541
00:34:42.780 --> 00:34:46.619
And they're just in the dialogue, but basically, this is just World War one.

542
00:34:46.679 --> 00:34:50.579
And it's a period of time where the doctor can't cope.

543
00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:53.400
So he can cope with Daleks and Cyberman.

544
00:34:53.460 --> 00:34:55.199
He can talk his way out of things here.

545
00:34:55.260 --> 00:35:00.539
Here is sort of subjected to a court martial and sentenced to death by firing squad.

546
00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:02.699
And at the end of the episode, he's apparently shot.

547
00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:08.820
Like the episode ends with him tied to a post and you hear the gunfight, gunfire going straight at him.

548
00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:19.500
And it is this thing where faced with real human evil and real proper history rather than stupid science fiction monsters, he's completely out of his dad.

549
00:35:19.559 --> 00:35:20.880
Can we just take a pause there?

550
00:35:20.940 --> 00:35:30.420
Nathan, did you just say that you therefore feel that the historicals are far more engaging for a viewer than perhaps the shooter historicals?

551
00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:32.099
Thank you for the vindication.

552
00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:33.539
It really is the end of it.

553
00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:35.219
Brilliantly the doctor.

554
00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:37.800
I was going to add, Brendan, what do you think?

555
00:35:37.860 --> 00:35:42.480
I was going to add that this story is so much stronger until the spaciness comes in.

556
00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:51.360
And it's not just the folk that BBC getting everything down to the King's Regulations issue being the right font and that, yes, I was nerdy enough to look it up.

557
00:35:51.420 --> 00:35:59.159
The tin mugs are accurate for the period that they're drinking from, the stuff on the walls, the paper that they're holding, everything looks exactly right.

558
00:35:59.219 --> 00:36:09.780
So when he goes, when General Smythe goes in and looks at the woo-woo screen. the 1st shutter, it feels so right, and that's as a period piece, which is why you get that friction.

559
00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:10.800
It's a real thing happening.

560
00:36:10.860 --> 00:36:12.659
And the doctor is out of his depth.

561
00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:17.340
General Smythe as a character is much more disturbing until he goes spacey.

562
00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:20.280
He's much more, he's much more dangerous as a mad journal.

563
00:36:20.340 --> 00:36:29.340
In a way, I actually think it makes him even more dangerous because, like you say, Richard, people weren't discussing the First World War at this point.

564
00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:30.840
And so...

565
00:36:30.840 --> 00:36:33.360
Well, not in media in TV shows.

566
00:36:33.360 --> 00:36:35.340
For entertainment. now, Yeah, it was.

567
00:36:35.400 --> 00:36:40.440
But something that does come up in entertainment based on that, Gallipoli, breaking around.

568
00:36:40.500 --> 00:36:41.460
Much later, yeah, yeah.

569
00:36:41.519 --> 00:36:45.599
It's all about how mad and insane and stupid the generals are.

570
00:36:45.659 --> 00:36:49.440
General, so Anthony Cecil Hog, but they melt it. is completely insane.

571
00:36:49.500 --> 00:36:50.519
And that matter.

572
00:36:50.579 --> 00:37:00.480
And both he and Smythe are based on General Hay of this period, who was literally sitting sitting way back in chateaux, sending soldiers off to their deaths and being drunk on the fantastic.

573
00:37:00.539 --> 00:37:02.400
Yeah, absolutely.

574
00:37:02.460 --> 00:37:22.860
So what we have with Noel Coleman as General Smythe finding that screen and being controlled or speaking to someone in another place in another time, we have what at the time was quite possibly a controversial explanation as to why the generals were nuts.

575
00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:24.480
The generals were nuts because they are not us.

576
00:37:24.539 --> 00:37:26.639
You're lettering, aren't you?

577
00:37:26.699 --> 00:37:27.840
No, and I think that that's right.

578
00:37:27.900 --> 00:37:31.199
And I have to think that this is Malcolm Hulk, and I have to think that it's intentional.

579
00:37:31.260 --> 00:37:36.599
I'm not a historian and I'm sort of lamentably ignorant about 20th century history.

580
00:37:36.659 --> 00:37:43.920
And when it comes to an explanation of the causes for World War II, that always seems to be sort of comprehensible and fairly straightforward.

581
00:37:43.980 --> 00:37:50.460
But World War one seems to be this sort of bizarre, complex, tawdry, sort of colonial thing.

582
00:37:50.760 --> 00:37:59.820
And clearly, it wasn't in the interests of any of the people fighting at any of the actual soldiers fighting it that it should go on.

583
00:37:59.880 --> 00:38:10.800
I mean, there were 1000000s of people killed for King and Empire, which are just kind of crazy things, you know, that are used to inspire the troops. you know, people who are conscientious objectors.

584
00:38:10.860 --> 00:38:14.639
They would male, you know, white feathers to them and stuff.

585
00:38:14.699 --> 00:38:21.239
There was all this strong moral pressure about participating because it was felt to be a moral obligation to participate.

586
00:38:21.300 --> 00:38:23.400
And somehow the ruling classes.

587
00:38:23.460 --> 00:38:32.340
And like I could be just giantly off beam here and if I've said anything massively offensive or historically inaccurate, just email Richard.

588
00:38:33.420 --> 00:38:45.780
So they have the power to compel these people, the rulers, the generals have the power to compel these people to obey, okay?

589
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:52.619
And that power is, you know, the power of the chain of command, you know, the power of the officer, all of those sorts of things.

590
00:38:52.679 --> 00:38:57.000
But it's, it's, it's specious, it's made up that power.

591
00:38:57.059 --> 00:39:06.480
And so it's represented here as this magical hypnotic power, which enables the general to force people to do whatever he wants.

592
00:39:06.539 --> 00:39:15.539
And then later on, we'll meet Von Weich, who is on the German side, who has the same power and has a lot in common.

593
00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:17.699
In fact, we see them together, don't we?

594
00:39:17.820 --> 00:39:18.480
Spoiler alert.

595
00:39:18.539 --> 00:39:27.960
So they have more in common than the people who are fighting than they do with the people who are fighting on the different sides.

596
00:39:28.019 --> 00:39:42.900
And so we do have, we do have just sort of science fictionalise the way you said, this commentary on the power of people to trick or compel other people into fighting for things that aren't in their interests.

597
00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:46.860
And very importantly, they're tricking good people.

598
00:39:46.920 --> 00:40:03.900
Lady Jennifer, Lieutenant Carstairs, look, the German officer, Captain Ransom, you know, they're all good sympathetic characters and well-rounded within a few lines of dialogue, which is Malcolm Hawk's trick, but they are made to do.

599
00:40:04.199 --> 00:40:12.599
Evil, terrible things, you know, saying that the doctor is a spy, et cetera, et cetera, by orders from their general.

600
00:40:12.659 --> 00:40:18.059
And yes, they're induced orders, but it's just carrying that, carrying that metaphor, carrying that allegory forward.

601
00:40:18.119 --> 00:40:27.719
It's terrible because it's shown again as a mirror of 1st door hall and the 60s revolution, which is really what this is about.

602
00:40:27.780 --> 00:40:46.619
It's not about the 1st World War. about what we've been seeing in the media for the last 4 or 5 years through Vietnam, that genuine, decent people are manipulated, like puppets, like actors with a script, by those, Illuminati, like, again, we mentioned the prisoner, the upper echelons don't really belong to any side.

603
00:40:46.679 --> 00:40:47.699
They're their own side.

604
00:40:47.760 --> 00:41:13.619
So we see, as you say, we see the 2 so-called generals from opposite sides actually meeting together, just like some Illuminati pyramid, which, by the way, was getting a lot of attention at the time from California, that was the 1st time we were hearing the stuff of that there's actually a powerful elite that's running the world, and Patrick McGoon's prisoner really encapsulates that. this is a very strong reflection of the mood of that as well.

605
00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:22.739
This is about how we were supposed to change the world and it hasn't happened because we haven't been able to get at the isolated minority who are still in control.

606
00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:24.059
That's why this is so dark.

607
00:41:24.119 --> 00:41:32.699
So what we have is this situation where there's a giant base and various zones in which all of the world's wars are being fought.

608
00:41:32.760 --> 00:41:38.639
And although it doesn't say that in the story, thematically what it seems like is what you've said.

609
00:41:38.699 --> 00:41:51.539
These base is full of people, the people who run things, and those people are making those wars happen because they have a plan of their own, which we learn, but that has nothing to do.

610
00:41:51.599 --> 00:41:54.900
It's not told to any of the people participating in the world.

611
00:41:54.960 --> 00:41:56.280
You can't read it from where you are.

612
00:41:56.340 --> 00:41:58.320
No, you're too small on the map. right.

613
00:41:58.380 --> 00:42:16.139
Do you think it's then possible that the reason that Malcolm Hawk and Terrence Sticks didn't include the Second World War is actually because unlike the 1st World War, it is difficult to criticise the purpose of Britain getting involved in the Second World War?

614
00:42:16.199 --> 00:42:20.699
It was seen as the Good War and the Just War, whereas this was still...

615
00:42:20.760 --> 00:42:23.159
I think very interesting, and I'm glad you raised that.

616
00:42:23.219 --> 00:42:31.500
The reason this was, you know, partly made might have been that Richard Attenborough's, oh, what a lovely war had only just been on cinema.

617
00:42:31.559 --> 00:42:45.840
And in fact, the locations of this are the very same locations, Brighton tip, that Dickie Attenborough's thing, filmed by Charles Crichton, who wrote the inestimably brilliant journey, Journey into Space, Journey into Space.

618
00:42:45.900 --> 00:42:49.139
And I just listened to it again on BBC 4 internet radio.

619
00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:57.480
It's the 50s Dandair kind of radio show about British astronauts that was the last program on radio.

620
00:42:57.539 --> 00:43:07.860
The same here in Australia too, because I've asked my old rellos, ancient rellos, who that it beat TV ratings, more people would turn off the TV to listen to Charles Crichton's journey into space.

621
00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:10.500
He later did The Goons.

622
00:43:10.559 --> 00:43:12.059
He did a lot of directing of the Goons.

623
00:43:12.119 --> 00:43:16.199
He directed a fair hitch of the 1st season of Space 1999.

624
00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:18.239
Did you do a fish called Wanda?

625
00:43:18.300 --> 00:43:19.860
You know what?

626
00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:21.239
He did.

627
00:43:21.300 --> 00:43:22.320
He did.

628
00:43:22.380 --> 00:43:23.699
That's right.

629
00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:24.059
Thank you.

630
00:43:24.119 --> 00:43:24.960
Charles Croydon.

631
00:43:25.019 --> 00:43:39.599
That's that famous line of lions led by donkeys, which was actually spoke on the Crimea, that it was used to define what happened in the 1st World War, and it's what the Australian writers were later saying, you know, happened to us at Gallipoli, all the rest of it.

632
00:43:39.659 --> 00:43:51.239
This is, as you were saying, this is about a really sympathetic reviewing of how awfully wrong we got it, and there is no way to rescue it or redeem it.

633
00:43:51.300 --> 00:43:57.119
It's other than to say that people on a small human level acted heroically against odds where they could never have succeeded.

634
00:43:57.179 --> 00:43:59.820
And there are lots of bits of that, aren't there?

635
00:43:59.880 --> 00:44:10.559
There's lots of individual, heroic things, which I think is sort of is lovely to watch and people like Carstairs and, you know, David Troughton's character and all of that sort of thing.

636
00:44:10.619 --> 00:44:12.179
Just for the moments, private more.

637
00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:14.159
It's great to see David Trouton, isn't it?

638
00:44:14.219 --> 00:44:18.780
Apparently that scene was added in and written as an audition piece for him just to see if he was okay.

639
00:44:18.840 --> 00:44:23.159
And I think it was just done as a thank you to Patrick for sticking through it for so long.

640
00:44:23.219 --> 00:44:25.739
And he's terrific in that scene, I guess.

641
00:44:25.860 --> 00:44:26.400
Absolutely.

642
00:44:26.460 --> 00:44:27.719
That's the naughty German journal.

643
00:44:27.780 --> 00:44:36.539
I'd also like to single out a particular parade, David Garfield, who plays Captain Born Reich. who just manages to be very, very menacing.

644
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:45.119
And as mentioned by Jane Sherwin, whose Lady Jennifer in the making of somehow manages to be incredibly sexy, despite the fact he's 5 foot 6.

645
00:44:45.179 --> 00:44:45.900
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

646
00:44:45.960 --> 00:44:49.500
Oh, that kind of both... playing a horrible officer.

647
00:44:49.559 --> 00:44:51.179
I'm not prescribing myself at all.

648
00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:57.780
We should also say this is, did you ever read Fred and Jeffrey Hoyle's SF when you were kids?

649
00:44:57.840 --> 00:45:07.019
They were, they were kind of, but beginners of hardest, Seth, and Fred Hoyle was a proper scientist, but he wrote a book that everyone was reading at the time, apparently called October the 1st is too late.

650
00:45:07.079 --> 00:45:07.800
I had it as a kid.

651
00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:12.599
It's atomic blasts, caused disjunctions in the timelines.

652
00:45:12.659 --> 00:45:16.019
And people are brought together just as happens in the beginning of this story.

653
00:45:16.139 --> 00:45:20.039
So it's worth having a look at, if you like, SF from the period as well.

654
00:45:20.099 --> 00:45:46.739
So we, Brendan and I were at Lords of Time 3 last weekend, just so for a week ago, and Terrence Dix was in attendance, and Terrence is a sort of famous raconteur, and I had spent the day before reading the Doctor Who magazine archive of interviews with Terrence, and Terrence pretty much word for word replicated those things in his session in loads of time.

655
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:48.000
Not that I'm complaining.

656
00:45:48.059 --> 00:45:49.500
It was all pretty entertaining.

657
00:45:49.559 --> 00:45:51.900
But he did talk about this story.

658
00:45:51.900 --> 00:46:07.860
And he did sort of express the opinion that it was a little bit of a runaround, that episode one was very strong, that episode 10 was very strong, but the rest of it was all marking time and it was all sort of repetitive escape battles, you know, that sort of thing.

659
00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:11.760
But I have to say that that's not how I see this at all.

660
00:46:11.820 --> 00:46:12.780
No, no.

661
00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:24.300
And Terrence did acknowledge in the interview that when it came out on DVD, the 1st line of the review in Doctor Who magazine was something like lines of Terrence Dix has been calling this a runaround for 40 years and he's completely wrong.

662
00:46:24.360 --> 00:46:28.019
And at that point of the interview, Terence just sort of threw his hands up and, oh, what do I know?

663
00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:42.179
But I think part of what makes his story so strong. is that, yeah, faced with having to write 10 episodes because Led and McCrimon, Dream Spinners, the impersonators, whatever you like, episodes fell through.

664
00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:46.679
And they needed something to go into a 10 episode slot.

665
00:46:46.739 --> 00:46:49.679
They didn't have time to try to work with 2 writing teams.

666
00:46:49.739 --> 00:46:51.719
So it's like, right, we'll have 110 episode thing.

667
00:46:51.780 --> 00:46:53.219
Terrence Sticks, you have to write it.

668
00:46:53.280 --> 00:46:55.739
Terrence turned to his, then landlord, Malcolm Hook.

669
00:46:55.800 --> 00:47:00.659
They'd already written together for the Avengers and Malcolm Hawk had written previously for Doctor Who.

670
00:47:00.719 --> 00:47:01.920
James was a kept boy.

671
00:47:01.980 --> 00:47:04.260
No, no, no.

672
00:47:04.320 --> 00:47:05.639
When I say land, Lord.

673
00:47:05.699 --> 00:47:09.780
I mean, literally, Malcolm Hawke owned his own house in the house around the corner.

674
00:47:09.840 --> 00:47:12.239
The cottage around the corner. all making sense.

675
00:47:12.300 --> 00:47:13.019
Anyway.

676
00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:22.139
And so they wrote it together at a rate of, I think, Terrence said, about 10 days per episode.

677
00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:23.880
And when I say 10 days per episode.

678
00:47:23.940 --> 00:47:25.500
It wasn't day one to 10 was episode one.

679
00:47:25.559 --> 00:47:34.559
It was like day one to 5 was episode one, days 5 to 10 was one and two, and so I think what makes it work is really, it's full stories, which overlap.

680
00:47:34.619 --> 00:47:38.280
So you've got the 1st story is they're in a war zone.

681
00:47:38.340 --> 00:47:41.639
The 2nd story is, ah, they're in a war zone and someone else is controlling it.

682
00:47:41.699 --> 00:47:54.900
The 3rd story is we're going to go to the people controlling it and we're going to mash them up and the 4th story is the now famous episode 10 where the doctor's past catches up with him and those stories all overlap.

683
00:47:54.960 --> 00:47:57.840
And I think that really is part of success.

684
00:47:57.900 --> 00:48:07.739
It's part of the reason that much further down the line, the attempts to do something similar with trial of a time lord is less successful because those stories are compartmentalised instead of overlapping.

685
00:48:07.800 --> 00:48:09.059
And plus they're terrible.

686
00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:11.579
They're not terrible anywhere.

687
00:48:11.639 --> 00:48:14.280
But the war games.

688
00:48:14.340 --> 00:48:25.260
The war games kind of does what Doctor Who now does, which has a series of self-contained stories, but also they have connections weaving through them.

689
00:48:25.320 --> 00:48:31.079
So, okay, we might have bits in this where people get locked up and then escape.

690
00:48:31.139 --> 00:48:33.239
But before they escape, they learn something new.

691
00:48:33.300 --> 00:48:43.260
Well, I mean, I think I think that they do a great job of sort of foreshadowing what's what's coming in episode 10.

692
00:48:43.559 --> 00:48:48.059
And I think we should talk perhaps about episode 10 at the end because I think it is quite different.

693
00:48:48.119 --> 00:48:52.139
I think the story ends in episode 9 and then we go off to another story in episode 10.

694
00:48:52.380 --> 00:48:52.800
Yeah, absolutely.

695
00:48:52.800 --> 00:49:08.340
You know, episode two, we see Smythe going into something that dematerialises with the Tartar sound, you know, in episode two, we start to see the control room that's controlling everything by episode three.

696
00:49:08.400 --> 00:49:10.019
What about that control?

697
00:49:10.079 --> 00:49:11.820
I know. we talk about that?

698
00:49:11.880 --> 00:49:13.739
Someone said something brilliant.

699
00:49:13.800 --> 00:49:20.219
It was Toby Toby Hadoke and Rob Shearman in running through corridors.

700
00:49:20.280 --> 00:49:27.000
And they say, because by now, viewers at home, listeners at home will know that the war zones are all fake.

701
00:49:27.059 --> 00:49:33.960
They've all been created on this planet and there's a base in the middle of it. which is real.

702
00:49:34.199 --> 00:49:45.300
But as you said before, the war zones are meticulously creative, like all BBC popping, we really know their job.

703
00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:47.940
And this one, once you get into the actual reality.

704
00:49:48.059 --> 00:49:52.860
The real part is crazy psychedelic, talk to us.

705
00:49:52.860 --> 00:50:03.780
Sergeant, Sergeant Stripes, silver and bread that you walk through, Negro. wibbly wobbly table tops that look like something straight out of Casino Royale and under the 68 version.

706
00:50:03.840 --> 00:50:05.820
There's lovely...

707
00:50:05.880 --> 00:50:09.360
Yeah, you have those lovely tiles on the thing, the lighting.

708
00:50:09.420 --> 00:50:11.219
These sort of clear plastic strips.

709
00:50:11.340 --> 00:50:18.539
It's a panto game show to Ronnie's musical comedy, Sean Connery, but it all ends up lair.

710
00:50:18.599 --> 00:50:30.360
It all looks so desperately hit, and we've not talked about any of the characters who inhabit this strange psychedelic space. some bitchy triumvirate.

711
00:50:30.420 --> 00:50:37.679
But they all look like they're just hip cats, you know, who've come from a jazz club or something.

712
00:50:37.739 --> 00:50:39.659
Well, they're the exaggers, aren't they?

713
00:50:39.719 --> 00:50:43.619
What, the 60s should have been, the rich hippies that took over.

714
00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:48.360
So they modelled themselves on what the revolution was about, but was all just superficial.

715
00:50:48.420 --> 00:51:03.659
They just modelled themselves on the Nehrus, which was symbolic of the Indian consciousness uprising there by Gandhi, of course. and that there was there was supposed to be a collective consciousness rising that would change the way governments are formed.

716
00:51:03.719 --> 00:51:09.659
But of course, the ruling elite simply take the iconography and change nothing at all underneath.

717
00:51:09.719 --> 00:51:12.239
Yes, I really like that actually.

718
00:51:12.300 --> 00:51:19.860
There is that sort of fabulous tension between how heap and up to the minute and fabulous they all are in their day poor is and how...

719
00:51:19.860 --> 00:51:21.539
They see it as nothing but another consumer item.

720
00:51:21.599 --> 00:51:23.820
There's no content in their thinking.

721
00:51:23.820 --> 00:51:26.340
They're grindingly evil establishment, people.

722
00:51:26.400 --> 00:51:28.920
It's unthinking, as you've seen on those last things.

723
00:51:28.980 --> 00:51:39.599
It was great year for internet rivalry politically when those bindings were published on the IQs of Republicans and Democrats in the US.

724
00:51:39.659 --> 00:51:47.400
The Democrats just sailed forward with much higher education standards and more functional responses.

725
00:51:47.460 --> 00:51:47.760
Yeah.

726
00:51:47.820 --> 00:51:51.300
Now, I'm not sure where I'm going to go with what I'm actually saying next.

727
00:51:51.360 --> 00:51:52.320
It's just occurred to me.

728
00:51:52.380 --> 00:51:57.119
But the clothing designs seem to be so important this year in Doctor Who.

729
00:51:57.179 --> 00:52:06.300
So we start off with the Dolcians who are weak, so let's put them in dresses and the dominators with their huge shoulders, so they are strong because they have a huge profile.

730
00:52:06.360 --> 00:52:13.679
In the invasion, we have all the military uniform, so you can trust the military, but you can't trust the man without the collar.

731
00:52:13.739 --> 00:52:17.519
And again, we have the villains who don't have collars in this.

732
00:52:17.579 --> 00:52:19.679
You know, they don't have a traditional suit.

733
00:52:19.739 --> 00:52:30.239
So like you're saying, Richard, they're taking the design of the revolution, which is getting out of the suit and getting into something more free flowing, but turning it into something, something evil.

734
00:52:30.300 --> 00:52:38.340
In the future, we have the seeds of death, where they have all their very high stiff collars and rubber outfits and they're all very contained and what have you.

735
00:52:38.460 --> 00:52:39.780
It depends on garments.

736
00:52:39.840 --> 00:52:40.920
It depends on the garments.

737
00:52:40.980 --> 00:52:44.940
Well, you've also got that friction within the writings writers themselves.

738
00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:47.039
I mean, Terence Dix has said to us.

739
00:52:47.099 --> 00:52:48.780
He comes from a colonial family.

740
00:52:48.840 --> 00:52:51.119
His family were prominent in India.

741
00:52:51.179 --> 00:52:57.960
He's told us and that he believes that colonialism was a very good thing for people under the empire.

742
00:52:58.019 --> 00:53:04.320
It taught them the political structure that kept their country going after the British moved out. whether or not you agree.

743
00:53:04.440 --> 00:53:07.679
But you kind of got that here as well.

744
00:53:07.739 --> 00:53:09.420
They're saying, sure.

745
00:53:09.480 --> 00:53:13.019
I think it's also just a tick box, but it's futury.

746
00:53:13.079 --> 00:53:14.460
Oh, yeah, yeah.

747
00:53:14.519 --> 00:53:23.039
I think it is, but I do think it is striking and certainly, um, you know, the show's done futury before, but it's never really done anything like this.

748
00:53:23.099 --> 00:53:25.139
And if you've never seen this story.

749
00:53:25.199 --> 00:53:28.079
That is just the most remarkable thing.

750
00:53:28.139 --> 00:53:29.219
They're beautiful.

751
00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:32.639
The sets are stunningly beautiful and stunningly late 60s.

752
00:53:32.699 --> 00:53:33.780
It's very game show.

753
00:53:33.840 --> 00:53:37.019
And they're very musical into it.

754
00:53:37.079 --> 00:53:43.079
The guillotine half-cut door is the security chief's office with the psychedelic pattern on the wall.

755
00:53:43.139 --> 00:53:43.679
Yeah.

756
00:53:43.679 --> 00:53:46.860
And but the security chief himself is so square.

757
00:53:46.860 --> 00:53:56.280
And, you know, what is super, you are, you know, God Shakespeare as Lawrence Olivier doing, Richard. you know what?

758
00:53:56.280 --> 00:53:58.199
Lots of fans make fun of James Bree.

759
00:53:58.260 --> 00:54:00.119
I think he's great when everyone appears.

760
00:54:00.179 --> 00:54:05.940
He plays it as cold and stylised. shut down as the person would actually be and afraid.

761
00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:06.900
He's very fearful.

762
00:54:06.960 --> 00:54:08.099
That's his major motivation.

763
00:54:08.159 --> 00:54:14.340
So in, in, in, can we talk about the transcript, the war chief, the warlord, and the security chief?

764
00:54:14.400 --> 00:54:16.199
Well, I was just going to say, security chief.

765
00:54:16.380 --> 00:54:22.019
Yes, it is often people who are in charge of armed forces who are very afraid and let that fear make their decisions.

766
00:54:22.079 --> 00:54:22.440
They do.

767
00:54:22.500 --> 00:54:29.699
We never get to see a security kitchen, but I bet he did a terrific omelet of fina. coming in from the front.

768
00:54:29.760 --> 00:54:34.079
So you've got the security chief and you've got the war chief.

769
00:54:34.139 --> 00:54:38.219
And they're the main guys, you know, for a while.

770
00:54:38.639 --> 00:54:44.159
So the war chief, he's like a sort of hipster Klingon, really, isn't he?

771
00:54:44.159 --> 00:54:45.539
From the 1960s.

772
00:54:46.019 --> 00:54:46.739
Fabulous fair.

773
00:54:46.800 --> 00:54:48.719
What are those mutton burns?

774
00:54:48.840 --> 00:54:49.500
I know.

775
00:54:49.500 --> 00:54:52.079
And the moustache and things.

776
00:54:52.139 --> 00:54:55.500
You only see them again in the mid 90s as arm tattoos.

777
00:54:55.559 --> 00:54:57.960
Both Celtic swirls.

778
00:54:58.019 --> 00:55:01.559
Yeah, not only did we have Le Metra a few stories ago.

779
00:55:01.619 --> 00:55:05.639
We now have Leon Colbert back as the war chief from the reign of terror.

780
00:55:05.699 --> 00:55:06.719
Oh, is he?

781
00:55:06.780 --> 00:55:08.219
It's the old Colbert.

782
00:55:08.280 --> 00:55:10.320
It's the traitor who Ian killed.

783
00:55:10.440 --> 00:55:12.300
I've completely forgotten Reign of Terror.

784
00:55:12.360 --> 00:55:15.239
Yes, remember, Barbara's quite taken with him, which is understandable.

785
00:55:15.300 --> 00:55:15.960
He's very handsome.

786
00:55:16.079 --> 00:55:17.880
Oh, amazing, handsome.

787
00:55:17.940 --> 00:55:18.539
Yep.

788
00:55:18.599 --> 00:55:19.260
Colbert.

789
00:55:19.320 --> 00:55:20.039
I remember that.

790
00:55:20.099 --> 00:55:28.500
So, so, um, he is from another race, the war chief, than the war.

791
00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:37.019
Yeah, so he's kind of in charge of it and it looks like he's supplying the mysterious time capsules that disappear with Tartar sounds.

792
00:55:37.079 --> 00:55:39.239
And then it's quite early on.

793
00:55:39.300 --> 00:55:42.539
Is it episode 3 that we hear him, his people refer to.

794
00:55:42.599 --> 00:55:47.760
It is, we hear about warlord constantly and then there'll be a little adjunct.

795
00:55:47.820 --> 00:55:50.219
One of the characters with his back, I might be James Perry.

796
00:55:50.280 --> 00:55:50.940
No, it's not.

797
00:55:51.000 --> 00:55:54.059
One of the characters has his back to the camera when you 1st hear the term.

798
00:55:54.300 --> 00:55:55.980
Time law.

799
00:55:56.039 --> 00:55:56.639
That's it.

800
00:55:56.760 --> 00:55:58.679
But it means nothing to the audience.

801
00:55:58.739 --> 00:56:00.960
I think, okay, says there are lords of war.

802
00:56:01.019 --> 00:56:04.079
Yeah, there must be Lords of their time travel thing as well.

803
00:56:04.139 --> 00:56:06.300
We hadn't actually heard the real nerdgasm here.

804
00:56:06.360 --> 00:56:10.440
Hadn't heard the Tardis traditional takeoff or landing sound for 18 months.

805
00:56:10.500 --> 00:56:13.679
Have you noticed he's had the handbrake off for the last 18 months?

806
00:56:13.679 --> 00:56:14.760
He's been making woo woo?

807
00:56:14.820 --> 00:56:16.019
Go back and have a listen.

808
00:56:16.079 --> 00:56:16.920
Yeah, we don't hear it.

809
00:56:16.980 --> 00:56:17.639
We haven't heard it.

810
00:56:17.699 --> 00:56:19.739
We hadn't heard it for 18 months.

811
00:56:20.699 --> 00:56:22.559
Yeah, we haven't.

812
00:56:22.619 --> 00:56:23.519
Go back and have a listen.

813
00:56:23.579 --> 00:56:26.460
It's really noticeable in crotons when it's all...

814
00:56:26.519 --> 00:56:35.099
So we have so we have him and it's gradually revealed that he's like a consultant to this whole experiment.

815
00:56:35.099 --> 00:56:40.320
And then he and the security chief don't get on and they sort of bicker and all of that sort of thing.

816
00:56:40.320 --> 00:56:43.980
And he thinks that the security chief's competence. marriage mate in him.

817
00:56:44.039 --> 00:56:48.360
Yes, I think that something's stopped or arranged marriage never worked out.

818
00:56:48.420 --> 00:56:50.579
He doesn't buy bring her flowers anymore.

819
00:56:51.059 --> 00:56:52.980
Put the garbage out.

820
00:56:53.880 --> 00:57:02.699
And we learn that there's a warlord as well, who's one of the security cheeks people, and who they both report to.

821
00:57:02.760 --> 00:57:04.139
But we don't actually see him.

822
00:57:04.199 --> 00:57:06.119
We hear that he's coming for a few episodes.

823
00:57:07.019 --> 00:57:14.159
And so a lot of the central thing, a lot of the central part of the story, sort of centres around those.

824
00:57:14.159 --> 00:57:22.440
And we actually get the doctor and Zoe, you know, wandering through that base and attending lectures there and helping out the scientists with the conditioning machine.

825
00:57:22.500 --> 00:57:25.139
And we get a whole, the wonderful Vernon Dopcheff.

826
00:57:25.199 --> 00:57:26.519
Yes, he's terrific.

827
00:57:26.579 --> 00:57:30.300
I think he's the one who actually mentions Time Lords for the 1st time.

828
00:57:30.360 --> 00:57:31.139
Am I right?

829
00:57:31.199 --> 00:57:32.099
I think you might be wrong.

830
00:57:32.159 --> 00:57:35.760
So, and that's that sort of throwaway line when they close to it, yeah.

831
00:57:35.820 --> 00:57:41.099
And then, and then we do get a scene and it might be...

832
00:57:42.000 --> 00:57:44.039
I can't remember whether it's episode 5 or so.

833
00:57:44.099 --> 00:57:53.699
No, episode four. scene in episode 4 where the war chief and the doctor see each other and the war chief clearly recognises the doctor. a chilling moment.

834
00:57:53.760 --> 00:57:58.320
It's unbelievable and it's really, it's absolutely coquettish.

835
00:57:58.380 --> 00:58:00.119
He flirts with the god.

836
00:58:00.179 --> 00:58:04.199
And he continues to do so for every single scene.

837
00:58:04.260 --> 00:58:12.000
He circles around him and it's all raised eyebrows and mues and honestly, he leaves James Carecross for dead.

838
00:58:12.059 --> 00:58:14.039
It's really full.

839
00:58:14.159 --> 00:58:16.079
I believe we were talking about this earlier.

840
00:58:16.139 --> 00:58:21.420
I believe that the war chief was the war witch in a past story and that he and Billy had a little fling.

841
00:58:21.539 --> 00:58:29.760
Or at least had a little, yeah, well, he recognises the doctor instantly, even though it's made clear they haven't seen each other since the doctors left the homeworld.

842
00:58:29.820 --> 00:58:30.840
Gallifrey's not being named.

843
00:58:30.900 --> 00:58:31.440
Yeah.

844
00:58:31.440 --> 00:58:33.179
Oh, no, no, absolutely.

845
00:58:33.300 --> 00:58:35.400
That's so he reserves atocious.

846
00:58:35.460 --> 00:58:38.820
I think he has an only very recently because he's kept some of the accoutrements.

847
00:58:38.880 --> 00:58:43.619
It's very rare in Mama Cass's outfit just taken in a bit of that hair.

848
00:58:43.679 --> 00:58:43.980
Come on.

849
00:58:44.039 --> 00:58:47.639
So they actually speak properly in episode eight.

850
00:58:47.699 --> 00:58:51.179
And by episode eight, the war, lords, arrives, and we'll talk about that.

851
00:58:51.239 --> 00:58:53.760
They have a sympathetic understanding between them two, don't they?

852
00:58:53.820 --> 00:58:57.239
They have a, and we get all of this stuff that we've never had before.

853
00:58:57.300 --> 00:59:00.239
So we know that the time lords are the doctor's people.

854
00:59:00.599 --> 00:59:03.420
We know that they've left their home planet.

855
00:59:03.480 --> 00:59:11.219
We're here for the 1st time that the doctor stole the TARDIS, but the doctor won't tell us why he left in episode eight.

856
00:59:11.280 --> 00:59:12.840
So we still don't know what the thing is.

857
00:59:12.900 --> 00:59:20.340
But they're huge revelations and they actually change, you know, like I think they substantially change the premise of the show.

858
00:59:20.820 --> 00:59:31.440
And you can get, you really, really get this sense and, and, you know, presumably people watching knew that this was Pat Trouton's last story.

859
00:59:31.500 --> 00:59:33.659
It had been heavily publicised in the paper.

860
00:59:33.719 --> 00:59:47.460
So, but you do get the sense that what's happening here is what, again, Philip Xander calls a narrative collapse, where the threat is that Doctor Who will end as a TV program.

861
00:59:47.519 --> 00:59:52.679
And that's a real threat to the audience because they tune in because they like watching Doctor Who.

862
00:59:52.739 --> 00:59:56.159
So it's the only threat that can actually affect you as a viewer.

863
00:59:56.219 --> 01:00:04.440
And you really do get the sense slowly that the nature of the show is changing around you, that the show is being dismantled.

864
01:00:04.500 --> 01:00:07.019
And that will happen completely in episode 10.

865
01:00:07.380 --> 01:00:13.320
I think when the show is finally dismantled and the doctor loses. in what is really striking.

866
01:00:13.380 --> 01:00:14.880
We watched it just now, didn't we?

867
01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:17.400
It's really sadly done.

868
01:00:17.460 --> 01:00:27.059
It's not just the end of Patrick Charton character, but it's the end of all of those hopes for the 60s of overthrowing. of what we've seen already. of it's worked out.

869
01:00:27.119 --> 01:00:28.860
And he's really destroyed.

870
01:00:28.920 --> 01:00:34.320
He's one of the last lines he has is she won't really remember me, will she, about Zoe?

871
01:00:34.320 --> 01:00:36.539
Everything's taken away from him.

872
01:00:36.599 --> 01:00:42.300
And that's foreshadowed in the previous episode, and this is something a lot of people have criticised about the story.

873
01:00:42.360 --> 01:00:46.500
I think episode 5 is the last episode that Lady Jennifer Buckingham appears.

874
01:00:46.559 --> 01:00:47.219
Yes.

875
01:00:47.219 --> 01:00:52.920
And of course, when the doctor is saying to everyone, look, my people will get you home, but I have to go.

876
01:00:52.980 --> 01:01:03.480
The only person he lets come with him is Carstairs because Kyasco says I want to find Lady Jennifer and the doctor just sort of sighs and says, oh, that's, you know, sighs to go, oh, of course, yes, please come.

877
01:01:03.539 --> 01:01:06.000
And then casting sort of just fades away.

878
01:01:06.059 --> 01:01:10.199
And I've spoken to people who say, oh, that's such a betrayal. such a travesty. like, no, that's war.

879
01:01:10.260 --> 01:01:15.840
That's war, you meet people and fleetingly, and then they're dead or you never see them again.

880
01:01:15.960 --> 01:01:22.860
They fade away and then they reappear together in a World War I end. live happily ever after.

881
01:01:22.920 --> 01:01:23.639
Maybe they do.

882
01:01:23.699 --> 01:01:24.300
But that's the thing.

883
01:01:24.360 --> 01:01:25.260
It's that uncertainty.

884
01:01:25.320 --> 01:01:27.179
It's the same uncertainty the doctor faces.

885
01:01:27.239 --> 01:01:28.980
Last time he sees Jamie.

886
01:01:29.039 --> 01:01:32.579
Jamie is running after a red coat waving his sword about.

887
01:01:32.639 --> 01:01:34.739
Jamie could be shot the very next second.

888
01:01:34.800 --> 01:01:39.539
Is it the same red coat that he's locked up with in episode two?

889
01:01:39.599 --> 01:01:41.219
I know you want it to be.

890
01:01:41.340 --> 01:01:44.159
Yes, because I thought they were very sweet together.

891
01:01:44.280 --> 01:01:45.719
I'm sure that they would settle down.

892
01:01:45.780 --> 01:01:54.360
They would sort out their political differences and settle down somewhere and have quite a happy life together, make lovely little bannock burns together.

893
01:01:54.659 --> 01:01:57.239
On a completely unrelated note.

894
01:01:57.300 --> 01:02:00.480
I think we should share that lovely story we heard from Jeffrey Beaver's last week.

895
01:02:00.539 --> 01:02:01.739
Oh yes, please.

896
01:02:01.800 --> 01:02:13.019
Jeffrey Beavers, who we're getting warehead of ourselves, played the master in 1981's keeper of Trarkan, and was married to the sadly late Carolyn John.

897
01:02:13.139 --> 01:02:21.539
And someone asked him because he'd already spoken in his interview about Carrie's passing and someone asked him about Carrie recording.

898
01:02:21.539 --> 01:02:29.820
And there's Beslayton's autobiography and, you know, how she must have felt given that she knew that she wasn't wrong for this world.

899
01:02:29.880 --> 01:02:36.780
And Jeffrey Bigger said, I think it was the last or 2nd last thing she did and she did it because she loved Liz so much.

900
01:02:36.840 --> 01:02:50.820
But if that was the 2nd last thing she did, the last thing she did was she recorded the gospels, and I produced those, because Carrie was very religious, and I'm not religious at all, I'm a complete atheist, but we made it work somehow for 40 years, are they?

901
01:02:51.659 --> 01:02:53.639
You know, it's just...

902
01:02:53.639 --> 01:03:03.059
There is a spirit of romanticism in Doctor Who, I think, is what triggered me to think of that because we like to think that Carstairs and Lady Jennifer ended up together.

903
01:03:03.179 --> 01:03:05.579
I think that it is in the text. you know what I mean?

904
01:03:05.639 --> 01:03:11.880
Like it is one of those just gentle, slowly developing love stories like Leo and Tanya in Wheeling Space.

905
01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:15.659
And there's one in, is there one in Fury?

906
01:03:15.780 --> 01:03:16.920
No.

907
01:03:16.980 --> 01:03:18.539
Well, there's already a couple in Fury.

908
01:03:18.599 --> 01:03:19.559
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

909
01:03:19.619 --> 01:03:20.699
The Harris was in Fury.

910
01:03:20.820 --> 01:03:21.179
Yeah.

911
01:03:21.179 --> 01:03:25.199
So, you know, that sort of thing, which is kind of sweet, I think.

912
01:03:25.260 --> 01:03:27.420
And certainly, I think that's definitely there.

913
01:03:27.480 --> 01:03:29.400
It's not just us reading into it.

914
01:03:29.460 --> 01:03:39.300
It's just possible that I might be, you know, overinterpreting the text when I suggest that red coat and and Jamie get together.

915
01:03:39.360 --> 01:03:40.139
Exactly.

916
01:03:40.139 --> 01:03:41.460
Do you think everyone was watching it?

917
01:03:41.519 --> 01:03:42.420
I think it's in there.

918
01:03:42.480 --> 01:03:43.380
Mac put it in there.

919
01:03:43.500 --> 01:03:45.300
So the only scene shot in colour, wasn't it?

920
01:03:45.360 --> 01:03:46.019
I remember.

921
01:03:46.079 --> 01:03:49.500
Jamie Seidling up to him and saying the red really brings out your arm?

922
01:03:49.559 --> 01:03:51.420
Is that why he said eyes?

923
01:03:51.480 --> 01:03:52.739
It was the accent.

924
01:03:52.920 --> 01:03:54.900
So episode 10?

925
01:03:55.019 --> 01:03:55.619
Episode 10.

926
01:03:55.800 --> 01:03:58.559
Although 9 is pretty amazing, isn't it?

927
01:03:58.619 --> 01:04:00.539
Because it is the doctor completely defeated.

928
01:04:00.539 --> 01:04:13.019
And they have defeated the war thing and the war other guy and, you know, everyone's like the security chief's been killed by the war chief, which is sort of hilarious.

929
01:04:13.139 --> 01:04:15.480
That's a hilarious death.

930
01:04:15.539 --> 01:04:16.739
James Bre, God knows what he's doing.

931
01:04:16.800 --> 01:04:18.179
B does wonderful death scene.

932
01:04:18.239 --> 01:04:21.420
That's really surprising this did not feel like a slog.

933
01:04:21.539 --> 01:04:23.219
No, no, no, that's it.

934
01:04:23.280 --> 01:04:26.639
I think that there's enough things going on, that there's enough plot development.

935
01:04:26.699 --> 01:04:35.039
So I watched 9 episodes in a day because I'm crazy and I wanted to get it done and I wasn't bored.

936
01:04:35.099 --> 01:04:42.719
I didn't make the mistake of just sitting there motionless, you know, growing bed sores on the couch while I watched them all.

937
01:04:42.780 --> 01:04:43.679
Do you know what I mean?

938
01:04:43.739 --> 01:04:46.920
I would get up and make myself a cup of tea and things between episodes.

939
01:04:46.980 --> 01:04:52.920
But, um, journey flipped to your brazen graven image of Lulla Ward and the other one.

940
01:04:52.980 --> 01:05:02.639
Well, yeah, I would do that, light a little candle and things, but, you know, like I didn't find it hard going and it is because enough different things are going on.

941
01:05:02.699 --> 01:05:11.400
And episode eight, you know, like, sorry, episode 9 is really a sort of fantastic climax.

942
01:05:11.460 --> 01:05:15.420
Everyone's been defeated, but what the doctor can't do is get everyone home.

943
01:05:15.480 --> 01:05:21.179
Yeah, so the Sidrats, side rats, side rats, side rats, bizarrely.

944
01:05:21.239 --> 01:05:24.420
So those the special space capsule.

945
01:05:24.480 --> 01:05:26.280
Are you being served changing cupboards?

946
01:05:26.400 --> 01:05:27.780
They look exactly the same?

947
01:05:27.840 --> 01:05:30.179
No, it's No, it's like what the goodies used to.

948
01:05:30.239 --> 01:05:31.619
Yeah, that door.

949
01:05:31.619 --> 01:05:33.300
Goodies changing all that comes out.

950
01:05:33.360 --> 01:05:34.380
It's grain.

951
01:05:34.380 --> 01:05:35.880
Because you can't eat mice.

952
01:05:35.940 --> 01:05:43.920
So, you know, they can't get everyone home because the space capsules are all running out of juice.

953
01:05:44.219 --> 01:05:53.400
The doctor can't control the TARDIS and there's 1000s of people, you know, that are affected by this scheme and so he has to call the time laws in.

954
01:05:53.460 --> 01:05:56.460
Not to save the day, he's done that, but to help all of these people.

955
01:05:56.519 --> 01:05:58.199
Yeah, you can't delete them there.

956
01:05:58.260 --> 01:06:00.239
No, he can't be camping himself.

957
01:06:00.300 --> 01:06:03.239
And and their arrivals really terrible. terrifying.

958
01:06:03.300 --> 01:06:04.079
Do you know what I mean?

959
01:06:04.199 --> 01:06:17.099
There's this sort of howling, scary noise as if something's descending. when the doctor, you know, they all run off in order to escape them and Philip Maddock, whom we haven't talked about yet.

960
01:06:17.940 --> 01:06:19.739
That's just amazing.

961
01:06:19.800 --> 01:06:28.800
Done. says that Philip Maddock says that, you know, the doctor will wish that Arturo VR had killed him when the time lords get to him.

962
01:06:28.860 --> 01:06:32.219
So we made to be scared of the time lords and the doctor is scared of them as well.

963
01:06:32.280 --> 01:06:37.559
And we know that the doctor was exiled, right, from the very 1st episode, don't we?

964
01:06:37.619 --> 01:06:39.900
But we don't know what from or why.

965
01:06:39.960 --> 01:06:48.059
And the idea that his people, that he's scared of his people and that his people are, you know, incredibly terrifying and powerful.

966
01:06:48.119 --> 01:06:54.480
You know, I don't think that's anything that we would have predicted, you know, not from the monk or from the doctor or anything.

967
01:06:54.539 --> 01:06:56.820
Other than that, he said, we can't return.

968
01:06:56.880 --> 01:07:00.780
Yeah, we get back and it's not necessarily just the steering column that's gone. wrong.

969
01:07:00.840 --> 01:07:02.460
It's nicely done, though.

970
01:07:02.519 --> 01:07:07.139
Brendan, you were saying, that threat, that ontological threat, that isn't diminished in this.

971
01:07:07.199 --> 01:07:09.420
You were saying, you don't even get to see the capital.

972
01:07:09.480 --> 01:07:12.539
This is all the trial is in the customs base.

973
01:07:12.599 --> 01:07:13.679
Pretty much, is it?

974
01:07:13.739 --> 01:07:14.159
Yeah, it is.

975
01:07:14.219 --> 01:07:15.659
They hadn't even passed bag check.

976
01:07:15.719 --> 01:07:18.659
It's 5 minutes away from where the TARDIS land.

977
01:07:18.719 --> 01:07:20.820
Yeah, the TARDIS, the cradles are right.

978
01:07:20.880 --> 01:07:21.840
So, no, no, no, no.

979
01:07:21.900 --> 01:07:24.480
This is they're just the blokes at customs.

980
01:07:24.539 --> 01:07:25.920
They're not even the really scary guys.

981
01:07:25.980 --> 01:07:28.320
They're just the ones who wear the kitty uniforms.

982
01:07:28.380 --> 01:07:29.820
We see the master.

983
01:07:30.840 --> 01:07:33.059
So this final episode, we just said on Galafray.

984
01:07:33.119 --> 01:07:37.980
So it's just like we see the master wearing the same frock that they're wearing in...

985
01:07:37.980 --> 01:07:41.880
And the master when the master looks into the untempered schism...

986
01:07:41.940 --> 01:07:44.820
He's wearing the same outfit that the time lords are wearing.

987
01:07:44.880 --> 01:07:48.840
Yeah, so it seems to be something that only novitiates wear before they get their big collars.

988
01:07:48.900 --> 01:07:50.519
These guys are just customs officials.

989
01:07:50.579 --> 01:07:51.960
They making how powerful the real ones are.

990
01:07:52.019 --> 01:07:54.420
Before we move on to Gallifrey fully.

991
01:07:54.480 --> 01:08:01.559
Next, something you were talking about is how this is starting to take apart what Doctor Who is and deconstruct it.

992
01:08:01.800 --> 01:08:12.480
That really starts even earlier in the story because towards the end, we have based on the siege, but it's the humans laying siege to the base of this type.

993
01:08:12.539 --> 01:08:16.260
The humans are finally fighting back and they're not just sitting there.

994
01:08:16.319 --> 01:08:18.840
They're not they're mad as hell and they're not going to take it anymore.

995
01:08:19.319 --> 01:08:22.140
The last purge of what a revolution should be about.

996
01:08:22.199 --> 01:08:22.979
Yeah.

997
01:08:23.399 --> 01:08:28.560
But yeah, it's the failure of the revolution because they take over the base, but like, what now?

998
01:08:28.619 --> 01:08:29.760
We don't need this space.

999
01:08:29.819 --> 01:08:31.199
We don't want this space.

1000
01:08:31.260 --> 01:08:33.479
We want to go home, but home don't home's not real.

1001
01:08:33.539 --> 01:08:35.100
Home is a construct.

1002
01:08:35.159 --> 01:08:39.659
It's this mind blowing inversion of last year's doctor.

1003
01:08:39.720 --> 01:08:42.180
But then as you do say that, then we end up on galafray.

1004
01:08:42.239 --> 01:08:44.520
This whole, let's not call it galafray.

1005
01:08:44.579 --> 01:08:45.899
Let's call it the doctor's home plan.

1006
01:08:45.960 --> 01:08:54.779
Yes, that's right So we end up on the we end up on the doctor's home planet and we see, you know, it's it's fairly insubstantial plot-wise, isn't it?

1007
01:08:54.840 --> 01:08:55.319
Yeah, really.

1008
01:08:55.380 --> 01:08:56.819
We're not eating the pth row, are we?

1009
01:08:56.880 --> 01:08:58.439
We're just...

1010
01:08:58.500 --> 01:09:00.300
Yeah, we're just outline.

1011
01:09:00.300 --> 01:09:01.380
Stats.

1012
01:09:02.460 --> 01:09:08.159
And so it is pretty thin as far as plot goes.

1013
01:09:08.220 --> 01:09:09.899
There's a little bit of peril, isn't there?

1014
01:09:09.960 --> 01:09:19.439
Like the warlord arrives and his guys with guns shoot a couple of technicians who are dismantling the TARDIS and stuff.

1015
01:09:19.500 --> 01:09:22.800
And then, you know, then he's captured and put on trial.

1016
01:09:22.859 --> 01:09:26.159
And maybe this is the time to talk about how magnificent Philip Maddock is.

1017
01:09:26.220 --> 01:09:29.039
Yes, yeah, because, you know, he's just static.

1018
01:09:29.100 --> 01:09:34.260
Philip Meddock's character in this, the warlord, he's always so still.

1019
01:09:34.319 --> 01:09:42.479
You know, unlike Edward Brayshaw's war chief who wanders around talking about we are masters of an entire galaxy.

1020
01:09:43.079 --> 01:09:47.819
Philip Maddock will walk into a scene with someone talking to him and then stop and stare at them.

1021
01:09:47.880 --> 01:09:52.439
Oh, very well, you may proceed.

1022
01:09:52.500 --> 01:09:54.840
But there's no mannered response at all.

1023
01:09:54.899 --> 01:09:56.520
It's done totally straight.

1024
01:09:56.579 --> 01:09:57.479
Yes, absolutely.

1025
01:09:57.539 --> 01:10:01.199
It's the least actually part that we've seen all year.

1026
01:10:01.260 --> 01:10:05.460
Well, Maddock, I mean, Maddock was in the crotons, and I think when we were talking...

1027
01:10:05.460 --> 01:10:06.239
Is that pretty straight, too?

1028
01:10:06.300 --> 01:10:11.100
Yeah, well, I think he has this ability to be terrifying while not going big.

1029
01:10:11.159 --> 01:10:12.720
Be real.

1030
01:10:12.720 --> 01:10:16.500
Well, no, I still think it's a bit camp and a bit mannered.

1031
01:10:16.560 --> 01:10:17.880
But that's not a criticism.

1032
01:10:17.939 --> 01:10:18.600
Do you know what I mean?

1033
01:10:18.659 --> 01:10:22.859
Like it's presentational, you know, he's, he's, it's not a real performance.

1034
01:10:22.920 --> 01:10:26.460
He's conveying to the audience, he's conveying to us that he's a frightening person.

1035
01:10:26.520 --> 01:10:28.619
But he manages to do it.

1036
01:10:28.680 --> 01:10:37.319
Like he'll scream and shout and stuff when he needs to, but it's a really contained and really still perform and it's really, really menacing.

1037
01:10:37.380 --> 01:10:39.659
And he's terrific on trial.

1038
01:10:39.720 --> 01:10:44.460
Like he refuses to acknowledge the time lords authority over him.

1039
01:10:44.520 --> 01:10:48.420
You know, he won't respond to the questions until the time Lords of the time.

1040
01:10:48.479 --> 01:10:49.020
Yeah.

1041
01:10:49.079 --> 01:10:50.399
It's exactly what Eichmann was doing.

1042
01:10:50.460 --> 01:10:51.479
And then the same lines.

1043
01:10:51.539 --> 01:10:53.880
I do not recognise the authority of this court.

1044
01:10:53.939 --> 01:10:54.899
Right, yeah, yep.

1045
01:10:54.899 --> 01:11:06.479
Yeah, that's interesting then that the element they bring in from World War 2 is hammering home how evil this villain is and how self-serving and how how he has such a lack of empathy.

1046
01:11:06.539 --> 01:11:07.979
Well, I mean, we've had.

1047
01:11:08.039 --> 01:11:10.199
We haven't been to World War 2 before.

1048
01:11:10.260 --> 01:11:11.640
No, but that's what I'm saying.

1049
01:11:11.699 --> 01:11:16.319
This is the one element of World War 2 that's thrown in and it's thrown in to show how evil this person is.

1050
01:11:16.380 --> 01:11:23.159
Well, we've been we've been happy to use echos of Nazism to make villains and aliens more evil.

1051
01:11:23.220 --> 01:11:34.020
That is that is something that show has taken from World War 2, even if it won't actually go to World War 2 until, you know, its 2nd last season, unless I'm probably the last season.

1052
01:11:34.079 --> 01:11:35.520
Last season, last season.

1053
01:11:35.579 --> 01:11:36.659
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1054
01:11:36.720 --> 01:11:39.239
Yeah, gosh. 25 years ago.

1055
01:11:40.500 --> 01:11:42.119
Feeling old.

1056
01:11:42.420 --> 01:11:44.880
And so we get that.

1057
01:11:44.939 --> 01:11:47.220
He's terrific and then he gets disintegrated.

1058
01:11:47.279 --> 01:11:48.899
He never existed or something.

1059
01:11:48.960 --> 01:11:50.520
It will be as if you would never existed.

1060
01:11:50.579 --> 01:11:54.479
And I'm sure I remember that from my reading of the target novels.

1061
01:11:54.539 --> 01:11:55.800
Which is pretty good.

1062
01:11:55.859 --> 01:11:57.119
Yeah, it's thin.

1063
01:11:57.180 --> 01:12:02.220
Well, it's a very time lord. you know, their time lords, so they can do timey things to...

1064
01:12:02.460 --> 01:12:05.579
They let you play out your own heart.

1065
01:12:05.640 --> 01:12:07.020
Did you notice they didn't step in?

1066
01:12:07.079 --> 01:12:20.460
They let the war, Lord, and his evil, gimpy suited, get smart minions with welder glasses because that's how you dress as an evil minion and do that little thing and even kill 2 of their own people.

1067
01:12:20.520 --> 01:12:21.899
It's a bit surprising.

1068
01:12:21.960 --> 01:12:24.000
At the time, I know how missing it are there.

1069
01:12:24.119 --> 01:12:30.600
There's a nasty part that makes me think that they let the time once have always, you know, they have prescience.

1070
01:12:30.600 --> 01:12:33.180
They would know, could see that this would be an eventuality.

1071
01:12:33.239 --> 01:12:38.579
Let them play it out to curse themselves. you know, let the villain dig his own grave.

1072
01:12:38.640 --> 01:12:41.699
But they're not worried about any casualties in the meantime.

1073
01:12:41.760 --> 01:12:45.779
Well, they weren't lords where they were probably they were customers officials. that's right.

1074
01:12:45.840 --> 01:12:56.100
And then we get, what we get is this sort of amazing thing in this episode where it references an unprecedented number of previous Patrick Troughton episodes.

1075
01:12:56.159 --> 01:13:01.199
So we see the footage from fury of the deep as the TARDIS lands in the water.

1076
01:13:01.319 --> 01:13:09.300
We see the TARDIS in, uh, sort of enveloped by uh, uh, when the doctor appears in his trial.

1077
01:13:09.359 --> 01:13:19.319
He mentions a whole heap of monsters and describes their, you know, main characteristics and things, starting absolutely inexplicably with the quarks.

1078
01:13:19.380 --> 01:13:20.880
Yes, but, you know, yes.

1079
01:13:20.939 --> 01:13:22.380
And here's the Maya bistro, right?

1080
01:13:22.380 --> 01:13:23.039
That's Meridius.

1081
01:13:23.100 --> 01:13:24.479
Oh, wouldn't that have been correct?

1082
01:13:24.539 --> 01:13:25.319
The slither.

1083
01:13:25.380 --> 01:13:33.600
And he so he mentions we see little clips from all of his previous adventures with these other monsters. newly filmed.

1084
01:13:33.659 --> 01:13:34.920
Were they mostly filmed?

1085
01:13:34.979 --> 01:13:36.060
newly filmed.

1086
01:13:36.119 --> 01:13:37.560
John Levine was 2 of them, I believe.

1087
01:13:37.619 --> 01:13:38.279
Wow.

1088
01:13:38.340 --> 01:13:39.060
I didn't know that.

1089
01:13:39.119 --> 01:13:40.199
The yeti, yeah.

1090
01:13:40.260 --> 01:13:40.560
Yeah.

1091
01:13:40.619 --> 01:13:53.880
So, this is, you know, in a way, uh, in a low-key way, uh, a sort of unprecedented celebration of of what the show's been doing in the past 3 years under Patrick.

1092
01:13:53.939 --> 01:14:04.079
And of course, when Zoe and Jamie leave, we get little specially shot, bits from Wheeling, Space and Highlanders describing their final date as well.

1093
01:14:04.140 --> 01:14:10.979
And so it is a huge celebration of the Trout and era, and we haven't had anything like that.

1094
01:14:11.039 --> 01:14:12.000
No, no.

1095
01:14:12.060 --> 01:14:16.560
And certainly Hartnell didn't have one because Hartnell's departure story wasn't really about his departure.

1096
01:14:16.619 --> 01:14:17.640
No.

1097
01:14:17.699 --> 01:14:20.699
And we were kind of trying not to bring it up too much.

1098
01:14:20.760 --> 01:14:36.359
In fact, it's afterpower of the Daleks, it's never mentioned that the doctor changes his appearance until this story, and this story, it's clearly foreshadowing because he'll change his appearance at the end, but do you remember the war chief says to the doctor, I recognise you?

1099
01:14:36.420 --> 01:14:39.000
I know you've changed your appearance, but I still know who you are.

1100
01:14:39.060 --> 01:14:40.140
Yeah, yeah, it's reminding me.

1101
01:14:40.199 --> 01:14:43.319
Yeah, so it reminds us, and that's what's going to happen at the end of the story.

1102
01:14:43.380 --> 01:14:59.220
My favourite thing, though, I think, in that final episode is the little mini adventure where Jamie Zoe in the Doctor Escape from the Time Lords, for just a little moment across that very strange set, and then they're recaptured almost instantly.

1103
01:14:59.279 --> 01:15:09.779
And the doctor knows from the very beginning they're not going to get away because when Zoe says, oh, you know, we've got to at least try and kind of turns away and sighs and rolls his eyes and it's just like, no, I'll do this for them.

1104
01:15:09.840 --> 01:15:12.479
Yeah, you know, this is one last adventure for them.

1105
01:15:12.539 --> 01:15:24.000
It's tiny mini adventure and the most spectacular set with all this dry ice and stepping stones and things like God knows what function that serves on the planet gala on the doctor's home planet.

1106
01:15:24.060 --> 01:15:24.539
Sorry.

1107
01:15:24.600 --> 01:15:26.399
I don't know what that room is.

1108
01:15:26.460 --> 01:15:28.380
But it is lovely, isn't it?

1109
01:15:28.439 --> 01:15:29.159
It's very sweet.

1110
01:15:29.220 --> 01:15:35.279
And I guess the departure of Jamie and Zoe, to people think.

1111
01:15:35.460 --> 01:15:46.920
I think it's very interesting that as soon as they're gone, that's when the doctor says they won't remember me, he doesn't say it before they leave because he doesn't want to upset them because they won't know that they don't remember it.

1112
01:15:46.979 --> 01:15:53.699
But even that 30 seconds, that horrible realisation that you're going to lose the most amazing time of your life.

1113
01:15:53.760 --> 01:15:56.760
The doctor kind of goes, no, it's better if they don't know.

1114
01:15:56.819 --> 01:16:03.180
And we get it years, years later with Donna when the doctor wipes home every, she knows what's going to happen.

1115
01:16:03.180 --> 01:16:05.579
That's terrifying. you know, when she's screaming.

1116
01:16:05.640 --> 01:16:06.659
I burst into tears.

1117
01:16:06.720 --> 01:16:08.220
It's a mental rape.

1118
01:16:08.279 --> 01:16:13.859
I was really angry with Russell for riding it that way because it felt like this is just...

1119
01:16:13.859 --> 01:16:15.659
Yeah, violating her.

1120
01:16:15.720 --> 01:16:16.560
Yeah, violation.

1121
01:16:16.619 --> 01:16:18.840
But, you know, he feminist and all the rest of it was.

1122
01:16:18.899 --> 01:16:22.800
You know, he the doctor knows this terrible thing is going to happen to Jeremy and Zoe.

1123
01:16:22.859 --> 01:16:26.460
So he saves them the emotional horror of it.

1124
01:16:26.520 --> 01:16:32.939
It's still a horrible thing, but it's kind of like they mean so much to him that he will carry the pain instead of them.

1125
01:16:33.060 --> 01:16:36.600
And I'm welling up now just thinking of it.

1126
01:16:36.659 --> 01:16:37.800
It's really awful ending.

1127
01:16:37.859 --> 01:16:44.699
That moment, it's that thing where it's the thing they reshoot in wheeling space and they get Tanya back.

1128
01:16:44.819 --> 01:16:50.520
They can rebuild some of the set. and Zoe can kind of nearly remember something.

1129
01:16:50.579 --> 01:16:54.779
And she looks back, but she looks back towards the camera.

1130
01:16:54.779 --> 01:17:01.319
It's directed in such a way that she's on the screen looking back at the doctor who's in the courtroom just as it fades out.

1131
01:17:01.380 --> 01:17:13.260
And like we've been, we've talked about companion departures and things and I think, you know, Barbara and Ian, obviously, like anything to do with companions, you know, anything involving Barbara.

1132
01:17:13.319 --> 01:17:14.220
She's the best companion.

1133
01:17:14.279 --> 01:17:15.600
They get the best departure ever.

1134
01:17:15.659 --> 01:17:20.039
But I've got to think that this is the 2nd best so far.

1135
01:17:20.100 --> 01:17:21.420
I'd agree with that.

1136
01:17:21.479 --> 01:17:23.699
I think I voted for another 2nd best previously.

1137
01:17:23.819 --> 01:17:24.539
What would that have been?

1138
01:17:24.600 --> 01:17:25.920
I think it would have been Victoria.

1139
01:17:25.979 --> 01:17:28.319
Because again, it's actually built up.

1140
01:17:28.380 --> 01:17:42.119
The producers of Patrick's era sort of start to realise that they need to take more care with the companion departures because as hurried as it is with Ben and Polly's departure, at least the story is about their absence.

1141
01:17:42.180 --> 01:17:42.960
Yeah.

1142
01:17:42.960 --> 01:17:45.060
And they get home.

1143
01:17:45.119 --> 01:17:49.140
And yeah, it's a lovely scene because the doctor's actually quite clipped and, well, here you are then.

1144
01:17:49.199 --> 01:17:49.979
You're home.

1145
01:17:50.039 --> 01:17:51.180
Are you going to leave?

1146
01:17:51.239 --> 01:17:52.619
Oh, okay, fine, you are.

1147
01:17:52.680 --> 01:17:54.659
They're sweet and Polly sweet.

1148
01:17:54.720 --> 01:17:55.560
I think it's a good scene.

1149
01:17:55.619 --> 01:17:57.180
Oh it's absolutely a good scene.

1150
01:17:57.720 --> 01:18:05.039
Yeah, actually, yeah, all the 2nd doctor's departures are quite well written and especially quite well played by Patrick.

1151
01:18:05.100 --> 01:18:05.699
Yeah.

1152
01:18:05.699 --> 01:18:07.680
But this is heartbreaking.

1153
01:18:07.739 --> 01:18:08.039
I agree.

1154
01:18:08.159 --> 01:18:08.939
It is, sir.

1155
01:18:09.000 --> 01:18:14.520
And I think there's a, there's that reference to it at the beginning of, in one of the pertween novels.

1156
01:18:14.579 --> 01:18:26.520
I just remember, you know, the doctor thinking about the faces of Jamie and Zoe, as they said goodbye, you know, and that was one of his sort of heartbreaking memories, and it's really, like, it's really easy to believe.

1157
01:18:26.579 --> 01:18:32.640
I think it's, uh, uh, it is a great uh, departure, see in a terribly sad moment.

1158
01:18:33.479 --> 01:18:37.079
So what about the dismantling of the show?

1159
01:18:37.140 --> 01:18:39.840
We see people dismantling the TARDIS?

1160
01:18:39.899 --> 01:18:41.939
We see the doctor unable to escape.

1161
01:18:42.000 --> 01:18:44.279
We see it now his adventures are over.

1162
01:18:44.340 --> 01:18:47.279
The humans are laying siege to the aliens.

1163
01:18:48.119 --> 01:18:51.479
Yeah, he's robbed of his face at the end.

1164
01:18:51.539 --> 01:18:54.960
He's headless there's...

1165
01:18:55.020 --> 01:18:55.619
Interesting.

1166
01:18:55.680 --> 01:18:56.939
I've really never noticed that before.

1167
01:18:57.000 --> 01:18:58.439
I must have seen this a bunch of...

1168
01:18:58.500 --> 01:19:07.739
You know, the production reason being pert we hadn't been cast when they were filming this, but yeah, it's quite disturbing and especially the Doctor Who has been very anarchic up until now.

1169
01:19:07.800 --> 01:19:17.159
His departure is, as he received, into the distance, just screaming, no, over and over again. which we don't see into again until...

1170
01:19:17.159 --> 01:19:18.420
Episode 4 of the next story.

1171
01:19:18.479 --> 01:19:20.100
Well, I was going to say...

1172
01:19:21.600 --> 01:19:28.020
I was going to I was going to say Silvan, Paul McGann, but or really Eccleston every time he tries to smile.

1173
01:19:28.739 --> 01:19:30.899
But no, you're right.

1174
01:19:30.960 --> 01:19:38.340
It is all about the dismantling of the show, but it's because they know that the show is going to be very different.

1175
01:19:38.819 --> 01:19:43.680
The show at this stage is on its last legs.

1176
01:19:43.739 --> 01:19:52.380
Season 5 of Doctor Who was averaging 8000000 viewers per week, this season is down to less than 4000000 during the war games.

1177
01:19:52.380 --> 01:19:54.720
The writing's on the wall for Doctor Who.

1178
01:19:54.779 --> 01:20:01.979
And pretty much Derek Sherwin and Barry Letts were told they'll have one more season because Sherwin knew that he wouldn't stay for all of the next season.

1179
01:20:02.039 --> 01:20:06.060
So Barry Letz was already there in the background and they were talking, look, you've got one more season.

1180
01:20:06.060 --> 01:20:17.760
And at the end of that season, what we want is we want an outline for what you will do with the following season, i.e. season 8 of Doctor Who, but we also want an outline of a new series because we may just cancel Doctor Who.

1181
01:20:17.880 --> 01:20:26.279
That's why they were allowed to change the format as much as they did for John Pertley, because the BBC were going, we're taking you off the air anyway, do what you like.

1182
01:20:26.340 --> 01:20:27.119
Right.

1183
01:20:27.180 --> 01:20:38.640
And, um, This is where I'm going to talk about Season 5 versus season 6 of Doctor Who, because many podcasts ago, I said that I thought season 5 was more successful.

1184
01:20:38.699 --> 01:20:41.100
I'm going to clarify that now by saying I prefer season six.

1185
01:20:41.220 --> 01:20:43.920
But season 5 was more successful.

1186
01:20:43.920 --> 01:20:50.939
For the reason that Rich and I keep coming back to the homogenisation of the series, A la the Avengers.

1187
01:20:51.000 --> 01:20:59.039
Now, just a few comparisons here, because season 5 and 6 of Doctor Who, and season 5 and 6 of the Avengers were roughly contemporaneous.

1188
01:20:59.100 --> 01:21:06.119
So season 5 of The Avengers, like season 5 of Doctor Who, was the season that followed a formula for international sales.

1189
01:21:06.180 --> 01:21:09.960
Now, the Avengers had already sold internationally, Doctor Who was trying but failed.

1190
01:21:10.020 --> 01:21:13.560
See, which episode, which season is season 5 of Avengers?

1191
01:21:13.619 --> 01:21:15.000
It's the colour M appeal season.

1192
01:21:15.060 --> 01:21:15.300
Okay.

1193
01:21:15.300 --> 01:21:25.199
So pretty much, especially about the 1st 16 episodes, probably the formula of reclusive scientist slash politician is killed and another one and another one and another one.

1194
01:21:25.260 --> 01:21:26.699
Ooh, big bass. lets have a fight.

1195
01:21:26.760 --> 01:21:28.920
Like the hidden tiger?

1196
01:21:28.979 --> 01:21:30.300
Like the hidden tiger.

1197
01:21:30.359 --> 01:21:30.720
Exactly.

1198
01:21:30.779 --> 01:21:32.399
People are the I know one.

1199
01:21:32.460 --> 01:21:34.439
In the hidden tiger.

1200
01:21:34.500 --> 01:21:37.020
People are being killed by insert menace in this case.

1201
01:21:37.079 --> 01:21:39.779
Cats controlled by insert base.

1202
01:21:39.840 --> 01:21:43.979
Yeah, control by insert celebrity Ronnie Barker.

1203
01:21:44.039 --> 01:21:47.880
Yeah, Ronnie Barker controls cats to kill politicians.

1204
01:21:47.939 --> 01:21:48.659
Was it Ronnie Barker?

1205
01:21:48.779 --> 01:21:49.739
It was Ronnie Barker.

1206
01:21:49.800 --> 01:21:50.520
I've forgotten that.

1207
01:21:50.520 --> 01:21:51.899
Perchway's in it though, isn't it?

1208
01:21:51.960 --> 01:21:53.399
Bert was in from Venus with Lob.

1209
01:21:54.479 --> 01:21:55.140
Which is really good.

1210
01:21:55.199 --> 01:21:57.899
Now, Doctor Who, in the same season, of course, is following.

1211
01:21:57.960 --> 01:21:59.159
It's based on the siege formula.

1212
01:21:59.220 --> 01:22:01.560
And as such was incredibly popular.

1213
01:22:01.619 --> 01:22:06.539
Season 6 of Doctor Who, they start doing more interesting and varied things.

1214
01:22:06.779 --> 01:22:10.439
There's still the base under siege elements in there, but they're going off to other planets.

1215
01:22:10.500 --> 01:22:14.640
The side men are invading Earth, where we're going into a land of fiction, that kind of thing.

1216
01:22:14.699 --> 01:22:22.439
Season 6 of the Avengers, of course, Diana Rigg had left. replaced by Linda Thawson, as in my opinion, the much maligned Tara King.

1217
01:22:22.500 --> 01:22:24.180
She was a Cardassian.

1218
01:22:24.300 --> 01:22:25.619
She was a card.

1219
01:22:25.680 --> 01:22:26.399
Not at the time.

1220
01:22:26.880 --> 01:22:36.539
She was a Cardassian in Star Trek, the Next Generation, the Chase. of her own line of underwear or Saint, and her father didn't defend O.J.

1221
01:22:36.539 --> 01:22:37.020
Simpson.

1222
01:22:37.020 --> 01:22:46.380
But again, the Avengers... broke away from the formula that established with Diana Rick and did some really great and imaginative stories.

1223
01:22:46.439 --> 01:22:52.859
There are some terrible ones in there too, but they did some really inventive things like all done with mirrors.

1224
01:22:52.920 --> 01:22:55.680
Pandora, who was that man I saw you with?

1225
01:22:55.739 --> 01:23:00.720
Take me to your leader, which is all about a talking briefcase, leading them to a criminal mastermind game.

1226
01:23:00.779 --> 01:23:03.060
Fame is my favourite all-time episode too.

1227
01:23:03.119 --> 01:23:06.600
Now, what happened with that is the ratings in the UK stayed the same.

1228
01:23:06.659 --> 01:23:13.500
But because the formula had changed, in America, the ratings plummeted, it was also up against Rowan and Marty's laughing.

1229
01:23:13.560 --> 01:23:22.979
Doctor Who, the ratings dropped because people had loved all these monsters coming in and the doctor, Jamie, and Victoria standing in a basement saying, aha, you shan't get in.

1230
01:23:23.039 --> 01:23:24.000
Oh, no, they're in.

1231
01:23:24.060 --> 01:23:25.680
Oh, Jamie, oh, the smoker, the home.

1232
01:23:25.739 --> 01:23:40.859
Um, Doctor Who season 6 tries to do something more inventive, people start switching off because I think partially because it was multipart with the previous Doctor Who, with season five, you could miss a couple and come in and you can still pick up the story.

1233
01:23:40.920 --> 01:23:43.260
Whereas I don't think that was as easy in season six.

1234
01:23:43.319 --> 01:23:47.939
You don't think it might have just been the temperature and thinking at the time, though.

1235
01:23:48.000 --> 01:23:50.039
Everything in the 60s was ending now.

1236
01:23:50.100 --> 01:23:52.859
It was a real point of we've seen it.

1237
01:23:52.920 --> 01:23:53.699
We've had enough.

1238
01:23:53.760 --> 01:23:58.380
The Avengers, Doctor Who, every single series we've talked about, even Bond.

1239
01:23:58.439 --> 01:24:00.840
Okay, that was doing well, but it had to reboot itself.

1240
01:24:00.899 --> 01:24:12.420
There's a point people were just seeing this is the end of an era and looking for what's coming up next, there might have been that whole declension of that zeitkeist of feeling that we failed.

1241
01:24:12.479 --> 01:24:14.039
Everything's that we've hoped before.

1242
01:24:14.100 --> 01:24:16.020
Okay, Apollo's going ahead and that's terrific.

1243
01:24:16.079 --> 01:24:19.800
I just think viewers are getting tired of the product and wanting the next thing.

1244
01:24:19.859 --> 01:24:23.579
We're moving out of the home counties and we know we're moving out into a bigger world.

1245
01:24:23.640 --> 01:24:25.020
Now, opportunities are there.

1246
01:24:25.079 --> 01:24:27.300
We've got technology, we've got space, we've got new ideas.

1247
01:24:27.359 --> 01:24:28.619
We're tired of the same thing.

1248
01:24:28.739 --> 01:24:31.380
I think just the audiences wanted a change of everything.

1249
01:24:31.439 --> 01:24:38.039
And I think the unfortunate thing there is if that's the case, the audiences aren't actually looking at the program.

1250
01:24:38.100 --> 01:24:42.300
They're looking at what do they think the program is because of the homogenisation the year before.

1251
01:24:42.359 --> 01:24:43.199
Yeah, yeah.

1252
01:24:43.260 --> 01:24:47.579
Yeah, but that's also, yes, the period itself was, we won't change.

1253
01:24:47.640 --> 01:24:54.539
But what's interesting is the reason the Avengers was cancelled was not because the Tyra King year was poor, it is popularly considered.

1254
01:24:54.539 --> 01:24:56.399
Because I did really well in France, didn't it?

1255
01:24:56.399 --> 01:24:57.479
Did very well in France.

1256
01:24:57.539 --> 01:25:01.439
No, their international sales were at their peak at the time.

1257
01:25:01.500 --> 01:25:08.699
Some of the highest rated episodes of the Avengers, I think 2 or 3 out of the top 10 come from the Tariq King in the UK.

1258
01:25:08.760 --> 01:25:12.899
What killed it was because it went poorly in America, half the money was coming from America.

1259
01:25:13.020 --> 01:25:14.399
They didn't order more.

1260
01:25:14.460 --> 01:25:25.560
So if Innas Lloyd had been successful in selling Doctor Who to America, there probably would have been American production money and it would have ended with Patrick Troughton because the last year wouldn't have done well.

1261
01:25:25.619 --> 01:25:40.800
So when you when you say that season 5 is more successful in season six, but fortunately not too successful, you know, otherwise we would have had the death of the program, as you said, do you like season 5 more than season six?

1262
01:25:40.859 --> 01:25:42.600
No, I like season 6 more.

1263
01:25:42.659 --> 01:25:47.520
But when I say successful, I'm talking about commercially and critically successful.

1264
01:25:47.579 --> 01:25:52.979
It was more successful in what it did because it did the same thing again and again and again.

1265
01:25:53.039 --> 01:25:58.020
Whereas season 6 does fall down and it does have its stumbles.

1266
01:25:58.079 --> 01:26:01.020
You know, it's got things like the dominators.

1267
01:26:01.079 --> 01:26:05.340
It's got the space pirates, but both of those at least attempted to do something new.

1268
01:26:05.399 --> 01:26:06.060
Yeah.

1269
01:26:06.060 --> 01:26:08.579
The same as true of the Tara King New and the event.

1270
01:26:08.640 --> 01:26:09.960
In a different way, a really different way.

1271
01:26:10.020 --> 01:26:14.039
And same with Tara King, they were experimenting with new camera techniques.

1272
01:26:14.100 --> 01:26:18.119
Yeah, it was, some of it was pretty much very, like, awesome wills.

1273
01:26:18.180 --> 01:26:21.720
I'm thinking of those shots in game, with the close-ups and the sets moving around.

1274
01:26:21.779 --> 01:26:24.479
It's very much experimental TV.

1275
01:26:24.539 --> 01:26:31.199
For those of you out there who are Avengers fans, and there's a lot of people, because Channel 9 still constantly repeat the colour.

1276
01:26:31.260 --> 01:26:33.420
They only show the colour rigs, don't they?

1277
01:26:33.479 --> 01:26:35.279
They don't show any Thorson or...

1278
01:26:35.279 --> 01:26:55.140
If you can track it down, Amazon UK, I think, still has the complete series 6 of the Avengers, which is all the Tara King episodes, including the handover from Diana Rigg, 2 end of course, and it's well worth getting because it is even better than you remember, and I say that as someone who watched them 1st about 10 years ago and thought these aren't as bad as everyone says.

1279
01:26:55.199 --> 01:27:16.500
When I got them on DVD, I went, actually, most of these are really good, and even when they're not, Linda Thorson, who was, I think about 20, is just acting her socks off because unlike a lot of other actors in other things at the time, she recognised what a great opportunity this was pretty young actress, I'm not going to say she was as good as Diana Rick.

1280
01:27:16.560 --> 01:27:16.979
She wasn't.

1281
01:27:17.039 --> 01:27:28.439
But Diana Rigg was a classically trained actress, whereas Linda Thorson was a small town girl who'd moved from Canada to London and suddenly landed the biggest job in the country.

1282
01:27:28.500 --> 01:27:31.380
Yeah, and she, aside from the Queen, obviously.

1283
01:27:31.920 --> 01:27:34.680
She definitely gets better as the season goes on.

1284
01:27:34.739 --> 01:27:36.720
Maybe that's time for an alternate podcast.

1285
01:27:36.960 --> 01:27:39.300
But yeah, to the bond cast.

1286
01:27:39.359 --> 01:27:54.239
I mean, really, this is the last chance we're going to have to compare Doctor Who to the Avengers. interesting that they end the 60s in the same way and that what allow Doctor Who to keep on going, arguably, was that it remained a British institution rather than an international co-production.

1287
01:28:03.300 --> 01:28:09.420
We're almost at the end of the '60s, gentlemen, so it's time for our last Jenny Laird awards of the '60s.

1288
01:28:09.479 --> 01:28:11.640
And my, you know what?

1289
01:28:11.699 --> 01:28:19.380
Because I do love season 6 so much, I had a hard time picking one and because I knew I was going to be kicking the space pirates a lot, I decided not to pick something from that.

1290
01:28:19.439 --> 01:28:30.600
So my Jenny Laird, award her most puzzling creative choice, goes to the ice worry, who does a little dance when he gets out of the team at cubicle on earth because he smashes through the thing.

1291
01:28:30.659 --> 01:28:34.800
And I think it's a directorial touch because what happens is some soldiers run across.

1292
01:28:34.859 --> 01:28:37.140
So he smatches through, he steps out, he turns to the right.

1293
01:28:37.439 --> 01:28:40.439
And it cuts to the other camera looking at him there.

1294
01:28:40.500 --> 01:28:50.159
He turns back to the left to Commander Radna, who sort of flinches for a 2nd and then he turns back to the right again, to the other camera, and then back to Commander Radna, and then walks out.

1295
01:28:50.279 --> 01:28:57.539
And it's just, because, you know, you've got to keep moving in a nice Warriors costume or you're going to crush certain things at the top of your waiters, let's say.

1296
01:28:57.539 --> 01:29:00.779
It just comes off as this bizarre little dance.

1297
01:29:00.840 --> 01:29:02.039
And then he wanders off.

1298
01:29:02.100 --> 01:29:02.520
Yeah, yeah.

1299
01:29:02.579 --> 01:29:09.300
Watch it again when the ice warrior arrives on earth before he goes to the weather control bureau.

1300
01:29:09.359 --> 01:29:11.579
So it's episode 4 or episode five.

1301
01:29:11.640 --> 01:29:13.199
I'm not sure exactly.

1302
01:29:13.260 --> 01:29:13.619
Watch them both.

1303
01:29:13.619 --> 01:29:15.060
Watch them both. fabulous.

1304
01:29:15.119 --> 01:29:18.840
But yeah, it's when he stumbles out and does a little dance.

1305
01:29:19.739 --> 01:29:23.939
It's just the way the world ends up with a bang, little whimper.

1306
01:29:24.000 --> 01:29:33.659
I was thinking of Tia Seliot's hollow men when you were talking about how Doctor Who ends and how the Avengers ends and how the 60s ends and that's how I would say the same thing.

1307
01:29:33.720 --> 01:29:40.079
I don't think I have a journey laird award for any particular player this season round.

1308
01:29:40.140 --> 01:29:44.819
I think people were trying very hard, but there was just forces against them.

1309
01:29:44.880 --> 01:29:48.180
It's the end of an era and that doesn't always go well.

1310
01:29:48.239 --> 01:29:57.300
I think it's really good to see Patrick at the end of this do so well and finally be given something to work with because he's just been so, you know, neglected.

1311
01:29:57.359 --> 01:30:01.199
They really, they really wasted an opportunity with so much.

1312
01:30:01.260 --> 01:30:04.199
It's the pressure of production and the timing there.

1313
01:30:04.260 --> 01:30:09.899
I think my Jimmy Laird probably goes to the BBC in the way they structured the production.

1314
01:30:09.960 --> 01:30:12.720
Not being able to give everyone there.

1315
01:30:12.779 --> 01:30:15.539
They were just so close to getting something amazingly good.

1316
01:30:15.600 --> 01:30:25.800
And we see, we've talked to the last 10,000 years, I think, about how good the little moments, little brilliantine diamond moments are in this, but we don't get a field.

1317
01:30:25.859 --> 01:30:27.840
You don't get a perfect field.

1318
01:30:27.899 --> 01:30:36.899
Maybe we get to feel the poppies at the end of this, but we don't get anything that lasts longer than that because they're hamstrung by so many other factors.

1319
01:30:36.960 --> 01:30:42.720
Maybe that's what good British production, like good Australian films is working against such tight parameters.

1320
01:30:42.779 --> 01:30:47.760
You get great coal like, you know, under pressure, you get the diamond in the coal.

1321
01:30:47.880 --> 01:30:50.340
So yeah, mine goes to the BBC.

1322
01:30:50.399 --> 01:30:59.340
Well, I was going to mention Fraser and Pat's increasingly pubic side, but I kind of think like...

1323
01:30:59.399 --> 01:31:03.000
I think it'd be lowering the tone after Richard's one.

1324
01:31:03.060 --> 01:31:04.680
Can I just sit this one out?

1325
01:31:04.739 --> 01:31:12.000
No, no, I think we should definitely go back to Edward Brayshawson, whatever he's doing with his mum face.

1326
01:31:12.060 --> 01:31:13.260
This can shoot a verse.

1327
01:31:13.319 --> 01:31:14.340
Yeah, yeah, yes.

1328
01:31:14.399 --> 01:31:15.060
Oh, thank you.

1329
01:31:15.119 --> 01:31:16.079
That's it.

1330
01:31:16.140 --> 01:31:18.840
Edward, yeah, the war chief is can she reverse.

1331
01:31:18.899 --> 01:31:19.439
There's the title.

1332
01:31:19.979 --> 01:31:21.659
Yeah, anyway.

1333
01:31:21.720 --> 01:31:22.380
Okay.

1334
01:31:22.680 --> 01:31:25.500
So recommendations.

1335
01:31:25.560 --> 01:31:28.020
I'm actually going to recommend.

1336
01:31:28.199 --> 01:31:29.039
I often do this.

1337
01:31:29.100 --> 01:31:30.300
I'm going to recommend Big Fish.

1338
01:31:30.359 --> 01:31:37.920
And specifically, I'm going to recommend the Companion Chronicles featuring Wendy Padbury, which detail what happens to Zoe after she gets back.

1339
01:31:37.979 --> 01:31:42.180
And all I'm going to say for now is Zoe works for this company.

1340
01:31:42.239 --> 01:31:49.560
This company who runs the wheel and this company discovered that she has time travelled and they're very, very interested in that, but of course, Zoe can't remember.

1341
01:31:49.680 --> 01:31:51.779
Does she have Ultron energy?

1342
01:31:51.840 --> 01:31:52.380
Is that how they know?

1343
01:31:52.500 --> 01:31:57.420
I can't quite remember exactly how they tell, but the scripts are written in a very 60 style.

1344
01:31:57.479 --> 01:31:58.859
So things aren't nailed down.

1345
01:31:58.920 --> 01:32:10.800
And I think 2 of the big contributors to the range are John Dorney and Johnny Morris, who, between them, houndeled a lot of the big finish 60s lost stories.

1346
01:32:10.859 --> 01:32:14.699
So they really developed their voice for the 60s characters very well.

1347
01:32:14.760 --> 01:32:20.520
And in a lot of these, because the companion chronicles have the companion actor and one other.

1348
01:32:20.579 --> 01:32:28.979
In quite a few of them, the other person who is Zoe's interrogator is actually played by her daughter Charlie Hayes.

1349
01:32:29.039 --> 01:32:30.359
Oh, lovely.

1350
01:32:30.420 --> 01:32:31.319
And then.

1351
01:32:31.380 --> 01:32:31.920
Yeah, yeah.

1352
01:32:31.979 --> 01:32:32.520
Oh, she's great.

1353
01:32:32.640 --> 01:32:35.579
And they have a very good relationship.

1354
01:32:35.640 --> 01:32:40.140
And the great thing is it's not really played on that it's a mother-daughter relationship.

1355
01:32:40.199 --> 01:32:50.159
It's a bit like when we saw Diana Rigg and Rachel Sterling, even though they were mother and daughter, it didn't have a bearing from their real life. in the Crimson horror. in the Crimson horror.

1356
01:32:50.220 --> 01:32:54.539
This is just 2 actresses playing really interesting parts.

1357
01:32:54.600 --> 01:33:00.600
And if I need if I was going to pick one, because to be honest, I haven't heard the last one yet. savouring it.

1358
01:33:00.659 --> 01:33:02.340
I haven't heard 2nd chances yet.

1359
01:33:02.399 --> 01:33:05.220
If I was going to pick one, I would say the memory cheats.

1360
01:33:05.279 --> 01:33:06.539
Memory cheat.

1361
01:33:06.600 --> 01:33:08.220
The memory cheats it's called.

1362
01:33:08.279 --> 01:33:13.020
So it's not about her having been a coke call for the last 2 years and it's my Chester wear all that one.

1363
01:33:13.079 --> 01:33:15.899
Oh, I hope dealers do the last podcast.

1364
01:33:15.960 --> 01:33:18.060
Otherwise, that is just cruel.

1365
01:33:18.359 --> 01:33:28.680
No, in this one, what happens is Zoe recalls a tale with the doctor and it's about whether you should interfere or not.

1366
01:33:29.220 --> 01:33:30.659
So she does.

1367
01:33:30.720 --> 01:33:31.800
She does start to get more.

1368
01:33:31.859 --> 01:33:34.140
I want to hear them just to find out how they do that.

1369
01:33:34.199 --> 01:33:34.680
Yeah.

1370
01:33:34.739 --> 01:33:39.720
But what's interesting is memory is not only cheating in the story she's relating.

1371
01:33:39.779 --> 01:33:42.600
Memory is cheating during the interrogation as well.

1372
01:33:42.659 --> 01:33:43.619
And that's all I'm gonna say.

1373
01:33:43.680 --> 01:33:46.560
Yeah, the story the story title works on 2 levels.

1374
01:33:46.619 --> 01:33:52.439
So Zoe's companion chronicles in general, the memory cheats in particular is my recommendation.

1375
01:33:52.500 --> 01:33:59.939
And can I just remind you that if you're riding a bicycle while you're listening to this or mountaineering or something?

1376
01:34:00.000 --> 01:34:01.079
What the hell are you doing?

1377
01:34:01.140 --> 01:34:01.800
I write a bunch of work.

1378
01:34:01.859 --> 01:34:02.699
Don't use your headphones.

1379
01:34:02.760 --> 01:34:03.600
I hate people like it.

1380
01:34:03.840 --> 01:34:07.079
And you can't write down these recommendations.

1381
01:34:07.140 --> 01:34:11.460
You can find them on our website or in your podcatcher of choice.

1382
01:34:11.520 --> 01:34:13.739
We'll put them in the show notes for it.

1383
01:34:13.800 --> 01:34:14.279
Yes that is true.

1384
01:34:14.340 --> 01:34:21.779
So my pick of the week is related to last weekend's Lords of Time 3, actually, which we all went and saw.

1385
01:34:21.840 --> 01:34:36.960
I saw like Matthew Warhouse was there and I'd never seen him before, you know, in real life and he was interviewed by a friend of the podcast, Todd, very expertly, I thought, and told some stories that I'd never really heard.

1386
01:34:37.020 --> 01:34:38.640
And I was really, really impressed.

1387
01:34:38.699 --> 01:35:02.880
And he's recently published, like in the last year or so, he's published his autobiography, and it's called Blue Box Boy, and it's available as a book and as an e-book, and I think it's on Audible as well, read by Matthew, which I think would be really interesting, and I've run out of audible credits at the moment, but as soon as I get when I will download it.

1388
01:35:02.939 --> 01:35:08.760
But I've been reading it, and I amount 3 quarters of the way through, and it's really, really terrifically interesting.

1389
01:35:08.819 --> 01:35:10.680
And it's very well written.

1390
01:35:10.739 --> 01:35:11.640
It's very well told.

1391
01:35:11.699 --> 01:35:15.300
It's, um, uh, unusually it's told in the 3rd person.

1392
01:35:15.420 --> 01:35:17.399
So it's like Matthew did this.

1393
01:35:17.460 --> 01:35:23.220
And, you know, that sounds silly and I think I remember people smirking when they 1st heard about it.

1394
01:35:23.279 --> 01:35:34.140
But it's a great alternative to having him, you know, go on like a lovely about his career and say, oh, I did this starling and I met John Woodmount and I met, you know, these people and all these things happened.

1395
01:35:34.199 --> 01:35:39.539
And it gives him an ironic distance from the material and allows him to mock himself a little bit.

1396
01:35:39.600 --> 01:35:47.460
And I had never really realised what a giant giant fan of this program he was before he was on it.

1397
01:35:47.520 --> 01:35:50.699
And his account of that is terribly, terribly interesting.

1398
01:35:50.760 --> 01:35:53.880
So Blue Box Boy is my recommendation.

1399
01:35:53.939 --> 01:36:04.560
Oh, I've been enjoying my own summer of 69, and I should clarify that, while we've been going through this by, which is what I do in Christmas holidays, watch other things from our childhood.

1400
01:36:04.619 --> 01:36:11.460
So I just watched the 1st season of Cat Weasel again, which was just filmed over the hill, um, with Jeffrey Balden.

1401
01:36:11.579 --> 01:36:13.140
Oh, it was filmed in 69.

1402
01:36:13.319 --> 01:36:19.800
So around the same time and the champions, which was sort of between season 5 and season 6 of Doctor Who.

1403
01:36:19.920 --> 01:36:21.899
Dennis Spooner.

1404
01:36:21.960 --> 01:36:25.619
Well, we've got Jeffrey Balden and Kat Weasel and and who else?

1405
01:36:25.680 --> 01:36:30.180
Pretty much everyone we own. or Katie Jakes is in it, of course. in one in a one off.

1406
01:36:30.239 --> 01:36:41.159
Just those lovely little microcosms of British loveliness of that Indian summer that will that point of childhood that will never come back, but held in that little crystal ball.

1407
01:36:41.220 --> 01:36:47.699
And I think we've got a sense of that in the last season of trout and that this is a very special thing that will never be quite the same again.

1408
01:36:47.760 --> 01:36:51.000
And definitely got the poignancy of that in the war games.

1409
01:36:51.060 --> 01:36:53.399
So I've been, yeah, my recommendations.

1410
01:36:53.460 --> 01:37:05.579
So go and have a look at Alexandra Bustedo in the Champions, which is a Dennis Spooner masterclass in how to do home county spy drama and make it all quaint and lovely, because they are still quaint and lovely, even though it's meant to be big budget.

1411
01:37:05.640 --> 01:37:10.319
Um, and but really, 1st season cat weasel, which is out there and bits of it are on YouTube.

1412
01:37:10.380 --> 01:37:11.100
It's just beautiful.

1413
01:37:11.159 --> 01:37:11.760
Lovely school.

1414
01:37:11.819 --> 01:37:13.680
I've just gone sideways.

1415
01:37:13.739 --> 01:37:18.659
And then you get a better feeling, really, of what this is by seeing what else was around at the time.

1416
01:37:18.960 --> 01:37:29.279
And another interesting thing about Jeffrey Valden is, of course, he's played the 1st doctor for Big Finish, and also he had the same, he's still around, and he had the same boyfriend for almost 40 years.

1417
01:37:29.399 --> 01:37:30.600
Yes, Alan Rowe.

1418
01:37:30.720 --> 01:37:32.880
Was Dr. Evans in the moon base?

1419
01:37:32.939 --> 01:37:33.779
He was.

1420
01:37:33.779 --> 01:37:39.060
And we'll go on to reappear in one John Pertley story and 2 Tom Baker stories.

1421
01:37:39.119 --> 01:37:40.380
But yes, they were they were together.

1422
01:37:40.439 --> 01:37:43.140
Well, in the 60s and forward from there.

1423
01:37:43.199 --> 01:37:47.699
Alan is sadly no longer with us, but Jeffrey Balden is still about.

1424
01:37:47.760 --> 01:37:48.180
Thank for that.

1425
01:37:48.239 --> 01:37:48.720
It's lovely.

1426
01:37:58.619 --> 01:38:02.100
We also have prizes to announce.

1427
01:38:02.159 --> 01:38:03.239
Yay.

1428
01:38:03.300 --> 01:38:06.479
We only had one winner for last season.

1429
01:38:06.600 --> 01:38:16.619
The Hand of Fear, who won a copy of The Abominable Snowman, and didn't want to mention this at the time, but it is actually signed by Darren Sticks, because...

1430
01:38:16.680 --> 01:38:22.800
So, yeah, you never know what you're going to get with us, although probably not another Terence Dick's signature because he's back in the UK.

1431
01:38:22.859 --> 01:38:25.739
But our current winners are, I've decided to pick four.

1432
01:38:26.039 --> 01:38:26.640
Oh good on you.

1433
01:38:26.699 --> 01:38:27.840
First one.

1434
01:38:27.899 --> 01:38:37.619
So our winners for this podcast are John Davies, president of the Dock 2 Club of Victoria from 1981 to 1982.

1435
01:38:38.039 --> 01:38:40.680
Before you were born, before I was born.

1436
01:38:40.739 --> 01:38:42.180
Chris DeLuca.

1437
01:38:42.300 --> 01:38:52.920
Someone called Ash, and also we've decided longtime podcast supporter there with us from the very beginning, Greg Miller.

1438
01:38:52.979 --> 01:38:55.140
So we'll be in touch with...

1439
01:38:55.199 --> 01:38:57.840
He is the most prolific commentator.

1440
01:38:57.899 --> 01:38:58.800
Yeah, absolutely.

1441
01:38:58.859 --> 01:39:03.300
So it seems only fair that he get a target novelisation of his choice.

1442
01:39:03.359 --> 01:39:11.699
So, Perks, we're going to be sending you out a list of novelisations you can choose from and we will post those to you in the new year.

1443
01:39:11.760 --> 01:39:20.039
So we are about to go, but we have a very exciting new episode coming up.

1444
01:39:20.819 --> 01:39:25.199
I've just confirmed with the aforementioned Todd Bilby.

1445
01:39:25.260 --> 01:39:31.319
Sir Todd Bilby, podcast listener and convention organiser and interviewer extraordinaire.

1446
01:39:31.680 --> 01:39:42.779
We are going to have, very early on in the new year, a special episode with us conducting a 60s retrospective about the last 6 years of Doctor Who.

1447
01:39:42.840 --> 01:39:44.880
Todd is actually going to interview us.

1448
01:39:44.939 --> 01:39:48.000
So we are not going to have any control over this gentleman.

1449
01:39:48.060 --> 01:39:49.439
I'll just talk over him.

1450
01:39:49.500 --> 01:39:50.880
That's what they want. always do.

1451
01:39:50.939 --> 01:39:53.039
So, Nathan, about the massacre.

1452
01:39:53.159 --> 01:39:55.619
Terrific. a piece of drama.

1453
01:39:55.680 --> 01:39:58.380
We have no idea whether this is going to work on op.

1454
01:39:58.439 --> 01:40:01.380
And after that, in the new year.

1455
01:40:01.439 --> 01:40:04.500
We are also moving to a fortnightly release schedule.

1456
01:40:04.680 --> 01:40:07.920
We'll still be releasing 2 episodes per month.

1457
01:40:07.979 --> 01:40:21.180
Each 2 episodes will cover a season of Doctor Who, and we may occasionally throw in some special extras, like if we have an extra sundae in a month or something we might just record, a little something special about something related to Doctor Who.

1458
01:40:21.239 --> 01:40:21.479
Who knows?

1459
01:40:22.079 --> 01:40:24.420
That wasn't even intense.

1460
01:40:24.420 --> 01:40:25.260
Polygamy.

1461
01:40:25.380 --> 01:40:25.800
There you go.

1462
01:40:26.279 --> 01:40:28.439
He's never mentioned this to me.

1463
01:40:28.500 --> 01:40:29.939
I only know about Doctor Who.

1464
01:40:30.000 --> 01:40:30.720
What am I going to do?

1465
01:40:30.779 --> 01:40:36.779
So all that's left to say is great jumping gobstoppers, where at the end of the 60s.

1466
01:40:36.899 --> 01:40:37.619
Wow.

1467
01:40:37.680 --> 01:40:40.979
We've done it where 19 episodes to the wind.

1468
01:40:41.579 --> 01:40:47.399
And we've covered every piece of televised televisual Doctor Who in that time.

1469
01:40:47.460 --> 01:40:48.960
God, gentlemen, well done.

1470
01:40:49.020 --> 01:40:50.460
Couldn't have done it without you.

1471
01:40:50.520 --> 01:40:51.960
It was amazing, wasn't it?

1472
01:40:52.020 --> 01:40:54.239
And there was heaps of it that I'd never watched before.

1473
01:40:54.300 --> 01:40:57.420
So like I said, I'm now a Doctor Who expert.

1474
01:40:57.479 --> 01:41:01.140
I've watched more Doctor Who than anyone except Sue Perryman.

1475
01:41:01.199 --> 01:41:02.640
And Ian Levine.

1476
01:41:02.699 --> 01:41:03.899
Andy Levine, obviously.

1477
01:41:03.960 --> 01:41:09.060
It doesn't feel like it's been as long as it has been, but my goodness, it's been a long time.

1478
01:41:09.899 --> 01:41:17.760
Well, look, it can't always, it can't always be Doctor Who season 3 podcast recording where we all almost quit.

1479
01:41:18.300 --> 01:41:22.260
And some people wish we had, dear listener.

1480
01:41:22.319 --> 01:41:26.100
But of course, thank you to all of you out there listening.

1481
01:41:26.100 --> 01:41:33.779
And, I mean, to those of you who know me personally, who come up to me and complimented me on the show and complimented the 2 of you on the show as well.

1482
01:41:33.840 --> 01:41:35.100
Thank you so much, just those of you.

1483
01:41:35.159 --> 01:41:36.119
So thank you.

1484
01:41:36.840 --> 01:41:45.359
For those of you commenting on the website, and the majority of commentators on the website are people we haven't met. which is fascinating.

1485
01:41:45.420 --> 01:41:46.319
So thank you very much.

1486
01:41:46.380 --> 01:41:47.340
Do tell your friends.

1487
01:41:47.399 --> 01:41:49.979
We're going to be moving into colour.

1488
01:41:50.039 --> 01:41:51.300
Yes.

1489
01:41:51.359 --> 01:41:54.300
Not many podcasts are recorded in colour, are they?

1490
01:41:54.359 --> 01:41:55.439
Yes, that's right.

1491
01:41:55.500 --> 01:42:00.119
And yeah, we may just be cosplaying for some both podcasts, quite frankly.

1492
01:42:00.180 --> 01:42:09.600
But also keep an eye out for our website, which will be being regenerated for next month as well to get with the times and step into 1970.

1493
01:42:09.779 --> 01:42:12.119
Until then, thank you very much and good evening.

1494
01:42:12.239 --> 01:42:13.260
Good night.

1495
01:42:13.319 --> 01:42:13.859
Thank you.

1496
01:42:19.920 --> 01:42:24.060
You've been listening from Fletcher and Tarrakee with Nathan Botany, Brandon Jones, and Richard Stone.

1497
01:42:24.119 --> 01:42:27.899
This episode, Hipster Clue, on Sunday, 21st of December.

1498
01:42:27.960 --> 01:42:30.300
The next episode will be released on January 4th.

1499
01:42:30.359 --> 01:42:32.699
You can buy us online, right to entirety.com.

1500
01:42:32.760 --> 01:42:36.359
Thank you entirely on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter.

1501
01:42:36.479 --> 01:42:41.760
If you want to find out how relative time is, tri-sitting through all 76 episodes of the space pirates.

1502
01:42:44.819 --> 01:42:51.239
Also, we do have 3 new target novelisations to go out to...

1503
01:42:51.300 --> 01:42:53.159
Insert name here.

1504
01:42:53.640 --> 01:42:57.539
And congratulations in certain name here.

1505
01:43:01.979 --> 01:43:05.760
If you could just say you're just ruining the illusion.

1506
01:43:06.239 --> 01:43:08.100
Actually, hold on.

1507
01:43:08.159 --> 01:43:10.560
We can look we can look at the bloody website.

1508
01:43:10.979 --> 01:43:13.140
Yes, I can do it properly.

1509
01:43:13.199 --> 01:43:15.659
I just didn't watch. to our podcast.

1510
01:43:15.720 --> 01:43:19.380
Oh, well, there's a lot of floppies.

1511
01:43:19.439 --> 01:43:20.159
One a bit.