WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 13:12:18

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Hello and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor

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Who podcast, which is likely to explode like glissal trinitrate.

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I am Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm a soggy mess on the floor.

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We're in we're actually in Richard's home, and that's why he's

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like that.

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But it's also because today we have to discuss the space pirates.

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And the Wargames.

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So we're going to head towards Alpha Beacon now.

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There are lots of space Rs with the space pirates.

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Now, Nathan, I believe this was yours.

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I think this one is, and this you're welcome to it.

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This is a bit of a historic one because it's actually the last

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Doctor Who story to be completely broadcast in the UK before I was

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born.

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Oh.

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So this is really my episode.

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It's an episode that much like Christmas celebrates the birth of

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Jesus, this episode celebrates my own birth.

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Our Doctor Who got good after you were born.

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Or cancelled, perhaps.

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So I've done a missing episode update before.

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And gosh, this is a missing story, isn't it?

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This is the last story where any of the episodes are missing.

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Five out of the 6 are gone from the archives.

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And the only one we have is episode 2 and episode 2 is shot in the

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studio on 35 millimetre film.

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Is that a thing?

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believe that's correct.

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And so that it's thought that that's why that episode was retained

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for kind of historic sort of purposes.

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Yeah.

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Another couple of interesting factoids about the missing status of

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this episode.

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First of all, a copy of the episode was recovered from a private

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collector actually recorded off the television on an early video

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recorder.

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It's the earliest known example of a terrestrial video recording

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of Doctor Who, this episode, episode 2, and the other thing is the

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current rumour on the whole Philip Morris missing episode search

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is the reason that we haven't had any more episodes returned and

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released is because they're actually trying to lose episodes one

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and 3 through 6 of the Space Pirates.

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Yeah, well, fair enough.

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But so what we do have, and everyone knows this, I think, that we

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have full soundtracks of all of the missing episodes, thanks to

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dedicated geeks who used to sit in front of the telly with a, you

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know, like a, a cassette recording, family denying children.

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Yes.

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They would send that everyone...

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They would said everyone from the room, close all the doors and

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windows.

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Do you remember doing that thought?

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I was doing that on pyramid of Mars.

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Actually, there's only one.

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And yesterday, everyone, shut up, be quiet. to be quiet, it's very

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important that I understand exactly how much of a plaything.

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So tech Tom is intended to be in this.

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I remember I remember once... recording one of the Tom Bakers we

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didn't already have during the 80s repeats.

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My nan was visiting and we set the VCR to record.

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And that wasn't Queen Zangxia, that would be a bit.

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I think it might have been hons of normal.

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But as we were recording, um, I turned to my nan and said

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something, it was such, you can't talk while it's recording and I

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had to explain that no nan video recorders don't work that way.

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But no, but that's the thing.

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She, because it was important to me.

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She just didn't say a word.

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Yeah, which was absolutely good.

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Also that she was in apoplexy trying to work out what the hell you

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had on TV.

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Cause of Nimon?

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I only just remember that.

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That's really nice because she passed away about a year ago.

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So that's a really nice memory.

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Yay.

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Thank you, space pirates.

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Wow, you did something nice.

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Yeah, well, I think we're done then, really.

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Yeah, we are.

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The rest of us.

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So I actually found that the surviving soundtrack is actually not

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very good.

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It seems sort of muddy and poor and everyone's doing a sort of

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crummy accent and so it makes the dialogue very hard to

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understand.

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And there are no telly snaps.

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So John Cure, who was responsible for the tele snaps, wasn't

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engaged.

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And there's a whole character.

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Madeline Isigri's father who is rediscovered spoiler alert in sort

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of episode 5 or something.

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There are no photographs of him at all.

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I really hope he's wearing that aluminium bakolite wig that she's

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wearing as well.

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He's got his own... version.

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It's an organised.

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From the boat, from the Argos, from the boat, from Jason's ship.

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No, no, it's model from the same wood.

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Oh, it's the same.

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From the UK mail order chain.

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It's 2 shows, isn't it?

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And I like reading like the one of the shows, which is what would

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happen if all of Kubrick fanboys just had 2001 come out and just

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said, that's it.

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SF is about spaceships moving inexorably, i.e. bloody slowly

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across the screen, harshly lit from one point because that's what

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the Apollo shots we were getting Apollo 8 has just gone off, hasn't

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it, to do?

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We'll be talking about the last week doing its rectation around

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it.

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So it's really just for fanboys who love models.

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It's a straight boys show, this one.

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It's all guns and no frocks, as you might have said.

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In spite of that, I actually really liked episode one, and I think

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that the model work is amazingly strong.

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Yeah, I love it.

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For the model work.

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And we still have those clips, of course, we have all the film

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trims of the model work and people crawling out outside Alpha Bean

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under tumble dries in space.

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And loose cannon does a great job.

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There's some CG and all of that sort of thing.

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Like they have to go to a lot of work.

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And so the pirates, so the pirates are raiding these space beacon

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things that are made of argonite. which is the most valuable

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substance in the universe.

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I'd like to get back to that because I'm interested in exploring

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the question of how many most valuable substances in the universe

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there are.

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Well, it's all a matter of time period, isn't it?

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That's so amazing that this is so Star Trek, but they really

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hadn't seen Trek yet.

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No, Star Trek did not premiere in the UK until after the war

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games.

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It took, I think I mentioned last podcast.

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It took Doctor Who slot.

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Yeah, 1970.

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It was on on a Christmas break and it was there because colour was

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being premiered by BBC.

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Yeah, not many people.

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Oh, yeah, exactly, not me.

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So you know what?

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It's quite possible that Derek Sherwin may have known it was

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coming up and kind of went, oh, let's do space first.

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Although I like Richard's idea that it is very like 2001.

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Yeah, I think it's jumping on Kubrick.

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But that's only visually.

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The pitch was pirates in space.

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We haven't done that yet.

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But visually these models are great.

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So there's no stars in the background, so it looks a little bit

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less fake.

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The pirates who are raiding these space satellite things have

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something that looks like very predatory and black.

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It's a really, really cool model.

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And then the space core people who are following them have this

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fantastically sort of flat model thing, which I've never seen

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anything quite like, and all of that stuff looks really good.

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And in the 1st episode.

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The 1st episode just has 3 sequences where they raid one of these

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space stations and it's basically the same footage over and over

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again.

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But I still found it sort of reasonably gripping and entertaining

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and you want to do it 3 times because the 3rd time it subverted

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some change in the pattern, you know, the doctrine and things are

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finally on board.

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But I actually thought that that was quite good.

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And I, you know, this is the last story that I'd never seen.

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I hadn't seen it before the podcast.

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Now that I've seen it, I've seen every Doctor Who story, even the

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ones that don't exist.

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You know, if you'd like to touch the hem of my robe, you could

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email the podcast.

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It is a very petching shape of shot.

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Yes, that's all.

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Yeah, so that 1st episode, I think, is quite entertaining.

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But the big striking thing is, and what I'd like to explore, in

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this sort of part of the podcast, is why does everyone hate this?

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You know, this is one of the most loathed Doctor Who stories.

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And part of it might be, it takes 15 minutes for the TARDIS to

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appear.

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See, for me, it's not just that it takes 15 minutes for the TARDIS

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to appear.

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It's that the doctor, Jamie and Zoe then spend the next 6 episodes

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running into a room where the door is then locked behind them and

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they stay there for a little while.

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So the 1st 2 episodes, they're locked on the beacon.

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And then they're locked on the lids.

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And then they're locked in a room and discovered Dana Secri.

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And then they're locked in the office with Madeline and then

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they're locked here and then they're locked underneath the

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spaceship and it's going to burn the doctor to death.

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You know, it's all about them getting locked up somewhere while

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the plot is happening in the next room.

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Yeah.

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And that's, that's really my thing about this.

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So there's a production reason for it isn't there?

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I mean, we're talking about the last episode, yes, but so the

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production, in the last episode, they're not, they are actually in

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it surprisingly a lot, but they're not in the studio.

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They're all pre-recorded because they're off doing location work

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for war games during episode 6 on Brighton Tip.

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But there's a surprising amount of them still in it.

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But I mean, basically the production issue here is that Pat is

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complaining about the workload.

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And he set the odd episode off unconscious sort of over the years

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but, you know, we saw that the mind robber episodes were all sort

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of 20 minutes long rather than sort of 25 minutes to reduce his

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workload.

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He'd been complaining a lot.

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And so he is really peripheral to the plot.

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And I just think, you know, this isn't the last time it will

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happen and it's not the last time it'll happen in a Bob Holmes

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script.

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But the rest of the cast aren't really strong or interesting

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enough to, um, to hold, you know, to make the rest of it

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entertaining, I think. absolutely.

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I mean, some of them are not.

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Lisa Danielli, as Madalena see Greek, is very strong.

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Dudley Foster as Cavot.

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I mean, Dudley Foster strong in everything.

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But 2 strong characters who only meet towards the back end of the

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story don't really add to that.

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And you certainly have memorable characters in this.

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But when I say memorable.

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I'm talking about Milo Clancy.

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Kevin is a genuine sadist.

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And the thing is, we're the only surviving episodes, you don't get

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to see him.

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So we forget that there's that menace, the unspoken and unpresent

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character all the way through.

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He's a monster villain.

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Oh, he's great.

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And, um, our show, we always come back to, and I will be talking

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about more later this podcast, The Avengers.

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He had just played a very good villain in that, in the very

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memorable episode, something nasty in the nursery, in which he

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ran...

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He was running a school for nannies. and his name was goat.

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So he was nanny goat.

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But he was very menacing in that.

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He was so, so stupid.

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There would be coats in that one too.

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Woo-hoo.

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Yeah, yes.

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Well, on the cutting real floor, though, so there's a little bit

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of it, yeah.

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And then she turns up and take me to your leader, but we're not

252
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only getting ahead of us.

253
00:11:42.059 --> 00:11:43.919
I'm getting completely...

254
00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:45.419
But that's how boring this episode.

255
00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:48.299
No, well, it sort of isn't a decent, though. boring because we

256
00:11:48.299 --> 00:11:49.379
don't get to see a lot of it.

257
00:11:49.440 --> 00:11:51.899
I think that, you know, they say, oh, the acting is totally acting

258
00:11:51.899 --> 00:11:54.299
as dull. one of those great stories where you don't get long

259
00:11:54.299 --> 00:11:55.559
tracks of info dump.

260
00:11:55.620 --> 00:11:59.039
You get 2 tracks, but keeping the doctor out of it for episode one

261
00:11:59.039 --> 00:12:01.080
means that the exposition's all done for us.

262
00:12:01.139 --> 00:12:02.940
So he doesn't have to find out.

263
00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:07.379
It's a nicely, a nicely done way of it.

264
00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:10.139
The people writing this behind it, and Terrence, especially, knew

265
00:12:10.139 --> 00:12:10.740
the tricks.

266
00:12:10.799 --> 00:12:12.539
Actually, this is the thing.

267
00:12:12.600 --> 00:12:16.860
Terence is seen as kind of, well, he's not elevated, maybe even

268
00:12:16.860 --> 00:12:19.799
you know, to the ranks of Bob Holmes and such like, and you both

269
00:12:19.799 --> 00:12:23.220
had the pleasure of meeting him this last week, didn't you?

270
00:12:23.879 --> 00:12:26.220
Well, seeing it. you know, looking at him.

271
00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:27.960
But hearing at you.

272
00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:30.480
You met me while I was dressed as Katie Manning and was just

273
00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:31.379
completely speechless.

274
00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:32.340
Yes.

275
00:12:32.340 --> 00:12:34.620
And it prompted you.

276
00:12:35.879 --> 00:12:38.460
It prompted Gary Russell to say, well, Terrence, welcome to

277
00:12:38.460 --> 00:12:38.940
Australia.

278
00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:43.919
With a Sid Jones laugh, yeah.

279
00:12:43.980 --> 00:12:47.399
But you see, Terence is a bit of a genius because just because

280
00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:50.220
he's so quick and he's so adroid at what he does, it kinds of gets

281
00:12:50.220 --> 00:12:50.759
him alive.

282
00:12:50.820 --> 00:12:52.620
But he knows what he's doing.

283
00:12:52.679 --> 00:12:57.179
So this thing, yes, sure, it's a space western space pirate thing

284
00:12:57.179 --> 00:12:59.580
but it's not poor in a way that it could have been.

285
00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:02.399
We got a lot more pace than gunfighters, and we really love

286
00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:03.120
gunfighters.

287
00:13:03.179 --> 00:13:04.320
I think it's slow.

288
00:13:04.379 --> 00:13:06.480
It's Bob Holmes, though.

289
00:13:06.539 --> 00:13:09.840
I mean, Terrence is scripted at it, but it is a Bob Holmes

290
00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:11.100
script.

291
00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:14.279
And it does have a lot of hallmarks of the Bob Holmes script.

292
00:13:14.340 --> 00:13:18.840
I mean, it is quite similar to Power of Kroll, and very, very

293
00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:20.639
similar to the case of Andrazani.

294
00:13:20.700 --> 00:13:24.059
Yeah, yeah, I've got this theory that he pretty much does every, he

295
00:13:24.059 --> 00:13:27.539
had this, this story is one he wanted to write and one he was

296
00:13:27.539 --> 00:13:28.139
passionate about.

297
00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:30.299
So he rewrote it about every 10 years, in my opinion.

298
00:13:30.360 --> 00:13:34.139
So case of Andrazani has like 2 main planets, like Andrazani

299
00:13:34.139 --> 00:13:38.460
Matron Minor, like Delta Magna and the 5th moon of Delta Magnet

300
00:13:38.460 --> 00:13:39.779
you know, in Power of Kroll.

301
00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:43.139
The 2 planets are called Lobos and Tar, and I never actually

302
00:13:43.139 --> 00:13:46.080
managed to work out on which one we were.

303
00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:47.700
No, it's very different time. isn't it?

304
00:13:47.759 --> 00:13:49.740
It's Coast Avengers.

305
00:13:49.799 --> 00:13:52.440
Yeah, no, this is what this is what, thank you for joining us.

306
00:13:52.740 --> 00:13:57.960
So then there's Spectrox and Argonite, the most valuable substance

307
00:13:57.960 --> 00:13:58.559
in the universe.

308
00:13:58.620 --> 00:14:00.059
And of course, meat bane.

309
00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:00.840
Yes, meat.

310
00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:03.539
My mind was just wondering, because I was thinking, honestly, it's

311
00:14:03.539 --> 00:14:06.360
actually just the adventures of General Chilek, isn't it?

312
00:14:06.419 --> 00:14:08.940
Coast Adventures aren't, but that is, if you think, I'm trying to

313
00:14:08.940 --> 00:14:09.539
remember what the name is.

314
00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:10.440
Her Mac.

315
00:14:10.500 --> 00:14:13.919
Hermac is seen as, you know, really a dull blunderer, but actually

316
00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:17.879
he's the worst kind of villain, because he's a stupid man and a

317
00:14:17.879 --> 00:14:20.639
bureaucratic stupid man who thinks he's clever. and has other

318
00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:24.720
people agreeing with him. is quite remarkable, and I say that in a

319
00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:28.200
way, as in, he is to be remarked on because, as of course, played

320
00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:33.960
by legend Jack May, he's got that wonderful voice and is possibly

321
00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:37.620
most famous to listeners as Igor in Count Duckular.

322
00:14:38.940 --> 00:14:43.080
And also Gark bit the head waiter in the TV adaptation of

323
00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:44.460
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

324
00:14:44.519 --> 00:14:49.980
What I find so remarkable about his performance is he plays it

325
00:14:49.980 --> 00:14:51.360
completely straight.

326
00:14:51.659 --> 00:14:56.399
And the problem is when you're doing that with Jack May's voice

327
00:14:56.399 --> 00:14:57.000
sir.

328
00:14:57.059 --> 00:14:59.759
It comes off as unintentionally comedic.

329
00:14:59.820 --> 00:15:04.440
And the thing is, this could have been quite a darkly comedic role

330
00:15:04.440 --> 00:15:09.600
if you had have had an actor who was playing Hermac, as if Hermac

331
00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:11.940
takes himself seriously, but no one else takes him seriously.

332
00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:13.980
But Jack May takes it entirely seriously.

333
00:15:13.980 --> 00:15:16.980
And it's really jarring with Donald G, who gives a more

334
00:15:16.980 --> 00:15:18.179
naturalistic performance.

335
00:15:18.539 --> 00:15:20.580
Except for his accent.

336
00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:22.799
Oh, but you can't really blame him for that.

337
00:15:22.860 --> 00:15:24.960
Yeah, I think it's the accents that let this.

338
00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:28.980
It's not Michael Heart's direction and it's just, that's kind of

339
00:15:28.980 --> 00:15:31.679
how that British actors in the late 60s, which is the greatest

340
00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:32.879
distance we have.

341
00:15:33.179 --> 00:15:34.200
It's interesting watching these things.

342
00:15:34.259 --> 00:15:36.600
There's still a sense of a media seat for us, isn't there?

343
00:15:36.659 --> 00:15:37.919
Because it's the familiar.

344
00:15:37.980 --> 00:15:39.960
But if we watch anything else from that period.

345
00:15:40.019 --> 00:15:41.519
It's so dated.

346
00:15:41.580 --> 00:15:44.940
Anything, any film you watch from this time, all of which were 3

347
00:15:44.940 --> 00:15:46.500
hours long with 2 intermissions.

348
00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:50.879
Everybody was doing long, long, long pictures at this stage in

349
00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:51.419
cinema.

350
00:15:51.480 --> 00:15:55.679
Yeah, well, Doctor Who was yet to really have a good American

351
00:15:55.679 --> 00:15:58.559
accent that I can think of off top of my head.

352
00:15:58.620 --> 00:16:00.299
You know, you had Captain Hopper.

353
00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:01.200
Yeah.

354
00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:03.600
I think it's written accents, you have the gunfighters, but as you

355
00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:04.919
say, Richard, that was just part of...

356
00:16:04.980 --> 00:16:06.000
Did you watch him another show?

357
00:16:06.059 --> 00:16:09.600
Other than Dennis Spooner's things for ITC, like the champions

358
00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:13.500
which hadn't premiered yet, only if you're watching BBC or

359
00:16:13.500 --> 00:16:15.779
standard ITV shows, you were hearing these kinds of American

360
00:16:15.779 --> 00:16:16.440
accents.

361
00:16:16.500 --> 00:16:18.299
It's what they thought Americans sounded like.

362
00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:18.899
Yeah.

363
00:16:18.899 --> 00:16:20.460
As far as the British year went.

364
00:16:20.519 --> 00:16:21.539
And the Australians were the same.

365
00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:24.779
Have you seen any Australian shows from like 60s?

366
00:16:24.840 --> 00:16:28.259
The Skippy comes to mind, but there are a lot of other spy shows.

367
00:16:28.379 --> 00:16:30.360
All those American plant smugglers.

368
00:16:30.419 --> 00:16:31.980
Yeah, the ones.

369
00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:35.820
Didn't General Putler was an American or Canadian.

370
00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:37.679
But he wasn't actually an American.

371
00:16:37.740 --> 00:16:38.580
Yeah, I don't know.

372
00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:39.659
That sounds terrible.

373
00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:44.759
So why do we hate this?

374
00:16:44.820 --> 00:16:46.860
I mean, is it just forgotten?

375
00:16:46.980 --> 00:16:47.759
Because we can't see it.

376
00:16:47.820 --> 00:16:51.000
It's like the smugglers where no one cares about it because no

377
00:16:51.000 --> 00:16:55.320
one's really seen it and it's not that exciting or is there an

378
00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:57.720
actual reason to really not like it?

379
00:16:57.779 --> 00:17:01.320
I think it is just the reasons we mentioned, but the doctor is not

380
00:17:01.320 --> 00:17:02.820
really involved in the plot.

381
00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:06.420
The plot itself is quite repetitive and the characters are

382
00:17:06.420 --> 00:17:07.140
memorable.

383
00:17:07.619 --> 00:17:09.839
But not necessarily good.

384
00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:13.920
It's certainly the beginning of Robert Holmes writing wonderful

385
00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:18.420
strong, memorable characters, which in just 2 stories time, he's

386
00:17:18.420 --> 00:17:24.059
going to really crystalise into writing a killer script, but on

387
00:17:24.059 --> 00:17:28.440
this occasion, It just doesn't quite work, and that could be the

388
00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:31.619
rushed commissioning of it because much like the crotons, his 1st

389
00:17:31.619 --> 00:17:34.799
script, this replaced a script which fell through at the last

390
00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:36.299
minute called the Dream Spinners.

391
00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:40.440
Yeah, and that's right, because the Impersonators was Mac Hogg's 4

392
00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:44.039
part of for the, for what was going to come up as Paddy's last

393
00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:44.880
story, wasn't it?

394
00:17:44.940 --> 00:17:48.180
Yes, that's right So things were falling through there, which is

395
00:17:48.180 --> 00:17:50.279
why we get a 10 part finale for Pat.

396
00:17:50.339 --> 00:17:52.740
Yeah, 2 stories were meant to be there, which fell through

397
00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:55.799
invaders from Mars, which ended up being ambassadors of death

398
00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:57.000
Whittaker's last script.

399
00:17:57.059 --> 00:17:57.180
Right.

400
00:17:57.180 --> 00:18:03.539
And also something which fell through in either the Space Pirate

401
00:18:03.539 --> 00:18:08.880
slot or more likely the 1st 6 episodes of the War Games was the

402
00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:11.039
Laird of the Crimin, which was...

403
00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:12.480
Mervin Hazman and Henry Lincoln.

404
00:18:12.539 --> 00:18:14.880
And were they still speaking to anyone at that moment?

405
00:18:14.940 --> 00:18:17.339
You see, that that actually fell through quite early.

406
00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:22.140
But that had been intended as the way to write Phraser out was

407
00:18:22.140 --> 00:18:27.900
going to be a six-part story set at the McQrimon Castle with the

408
00:18:27.900 --> 00:18:31.680
Yeti attacking and Jamie would have to then stay behind and become

409
00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:33.299
the laird of the McCrimon.

410
00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:38.039
So he would go back and he would succeed his father. love to see

411
00:18:38.039 --> 00:18:38.220
that.

412
00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:42.480
Don't you think it would have been an allegory about why war and

413
00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:43.680
hatefulness are really good?

414
00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:46.740
If it was by then.

415
00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:48.299
Well, it's not...

416
00:18:50.099 --> 00:18:52.380
This is more about civil war.

417
00:18:52.380 --> 00:18:54.900
Actually, yeah, and I think in a in a pressing way, it would have

418
00:18:54.900 --> 00:18:56.099
been about Scottish referendum.

419
00:18:56.160 --> 00:18:57.240
Yeah.

420
00:18:57.240 --> 00:18:58.920
I don't think that would have been too bad.

421
00:18:58.980 --> 00:19:00.779
I really like the 2 yeti stories they did.

422
00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:03.299
Yeah, it's a shame we even get this.

423
00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:07.680
I believe they were going to be cows who turned into yetis in that

424
00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:07.980
story.

425
00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:09.299
Oh my god.

426
00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:11.279
So they would have...

427
00:19:11.339 --> 00:19:15.420
It would have been bovine yetis because, of course, the Macrimons

428
00:19:15.420 --> 00:19:19.319
had pastures and had casual and they were going to arrive in

429
00:19:19.319 --> 00:19:21.299
episode one and people will be saying, oh, the cows are actually

430
00:19:21.299 --> 00:19:21.839
very strange.

431
00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:24.660
And, you know, end of episode one would have been the cows

432
00:19:24.660 --> 00:19:26.279
storming the castle.

433
00:19:26.339 --> 00:19:28.019
That would have been great.

434
00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:32.819
I mean, played by Tim Brooke Taylor and Bill Oddie in the same

435
00:19:32.819 --> 00:19:37.500
Heffelump. pantomime dromedary skin, they weren't a goodies.

436
00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:40.200
They did start to make the outfit, which was later remade into the

437
00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:40.740
market.

438
00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:41.339
So there he was.

439
00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:42.660
Really?

440
00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:45.839
You see, already this sounds more entertaining than a space pirate

441
00:19:45.900 --> 00:19:47.579
why are we talking militant cows?

442
00:19:47.640 --> 00:19:50.039
Why aren't we talking about the space pirates?

443
00:19:50.099 --> 00:19:54.240
So, I mean, I think you just asked the right question.

444
00:19:55.079 --> 00:19:56.519
Yeah.

445
00:19:56.579 --> 00:19:58.619
What do you think, Richard?

446
00:19:58.680 --> 00:20:00.720
I mean, why do you think we hate this?

447
00:20:00.779 --> 00:20:01.500
You don't.

448
00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:02.759
I don't.

449
00:20:02.819 --> 00:20:06.839
And I've got average viewings of 5.5, 5.7 all the rest of it.

450
00:20:06.900 --> 00:20:09.359
So it did a lot better than, you know, things around.

451
00:20:09.420 --> 00:20:11.940
I think that's because it had space shots that might have been, you

452
00:20:11.940 --> 00:20:13.500
know, that premiered.

453
00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:15.059
The show did get publicity.

454
00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:17.819
So you were looking at little picks and bits on BBC.

455
00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:18.779
Oh, space.

456
00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:19.440
It was a big thing.

457
00:20:19.500 --> 00:20:20.579
It's got space in the title.

458
00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:21.420
So we'll watch that.

459
00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:23.700
I just think it's Bob Holmes.

460
00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:26.700
And he got a lot of work from them because he had great fresh

461
00:20:26.700 --> 00:20:27.779
ideas and all the rest of it.

462
00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:30.960
But basically he does piss stakes and usually they work really

463
00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:34.500
brilliantly because the humour is concerted within the story.

464
00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:38.759
It works within the, but here, when he kind of sends up what he's

465
00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:41.099
doing, I don't think it ever works as well.

466
00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:42.359
And he's done that a few times.

467
00:20:42.420 --> 00:20:43.859
He did it with the 2 doctors.

468
00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:48.480
When he sits above and beyond the narrative and makes fun of what

469
00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:48.960
he's doing.

470
00:20:49.019 --> 00:20:50.819
I don't think it's ever entirely successful.

471
00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:53.099
And my gut feeling is that's what he was doing with this one.

472
00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:56.099
Sandifer kind of has that theory as well.

473
00:20:56.160 --> 00:21:01.380
He sort of thinks that occasionally what Bob Holmes will do is

474
00:21:01.380 --> 00:21:06.059
give the audience what they want. you know, in order to show them

475
00:21:06.059 --> 00:21:07.140
choke on it.

476
00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:07.980
Yeah, that's right.

477
00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:11.700
In order to show them that and, you know, power of Kroll again

478
00:21:11.700 --> 00:21:13.259
which is pretty widely hated.

479
00:21:13.319 --> 00:21:14.880
I love to.

480
00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:16.380
I like it too.

481
00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:18.059
And again, I think it's a remake of this.

482
00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:21.720
It's all of that sort of thing where, you know, the evil

483
00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:24.299
corporation is in league with the people who look like they're

484
00:21:24.299 --> 00:21:27.720
going to undermine the evil corporation and you get that in all 3

485
00:21:27.720 --> 00:21:28.500
of these stories.

486
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:32.160
And like even sidelining the doctor is common to all 3 of them.

487
00:21:32.220 --> 00:21:33.599
They are really so similar.

488
00:21:33.660 --> 00:21:34.440
Absolutely.

489
00:21:34.500 --> 00:21:36.119
And that's the thing.

490
00:21:36.180 --> 00:21:40.740
I do think that when he revisits this story for Power Kroll in

491
00:21:40.740 --> 00:21:44.460
1978 or almost 10 years after, and then again for Caves Van Rosani

492
00:21:44.460 --> 00:21:46.799
6 years after that, it improves each time he does it.

493
00:21:46.859 --> 00:21:52.440
And it is, of course, such a shame that he passed away when he did

494
00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:54.000
in 1986.

495
00:21:54.180 --> 00:21:54.900
It would have been wonderful.

496
00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:58.740
He was a contemporary, I think, slightly older than Terence

497
00:21:58.740 --> 00:21:59.160
Sticks.

498
00:21:59.220 --> 00:22:00.240
He could still be with us today.

499
00:22:00.299 --> 00:22:02.880
It's such a shame that he did pass away.

500
00:22:02.940 --> 00:22:05.400
But I also think it's a shame that he couldn't revisit this story

501
00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:05.640
again.

502
00:22:05.700 --> 00:22:10.619
Another story I compare it to is Kevin McClory constantly wanting

503
00:22:10.619 --> 00:22:12.779
to revisit Thunderball, the James Bond film.

504
00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:14.579
So he revisits us, never seen ever again.

505
00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:16.259
She's only got the rights to one story.

506
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:20.880
He was going to try again with Warhead 2000 featuring Timothy

507
00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:22.619
Dalton, which never got off the ground.

508
00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:25.859
And I don't think that's too successful because he Kevin McClory

509
00:22:25.859 --> 00:22:28.140
was so fixated on I have the rights to this story.

510
00:22:28.259 --> 00:22:31.920
It was more about having the rights than had in the story, whereas

511
00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:32.819
Bob Holmes.

512
00:22:33.299 --> 00:22:37.619
Space Pirates, Power of Kroll may not be the best stories.

513
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:40.980
And I would argue Caves of Andrazani is not a great Doctor Who

514
00:22:40.980 --> 00:22:43.259
story, controversial, but will get there.

515
00:22:43.319 --> 00:22:46.079
But...

516
00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:46.740
Great story though.

517
00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:48.299
It's just a great Blake sentence story.

518
00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:49.920
But that's the thing.

519
00:22:49.980 --> 00:22:53.099
Robert Holmes passion for storytelling comes through in this

520
00:22:53.099 --> 00:22:55.859
despite all, it's many, many, many, many, many, many flaws.

521
00:22:56.220 --> 00:23:00.180
You can tell Robert Holmes is having great fun writing the space

522
00:23:00.180 --> 00:23:02.759
pirates, even if he's just saying, right, you've given me a

523
00:23:02.759 --> 00:23:03.180
shopping list.

524
00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:04.440
I don't want to shop for this.

525
00:23:04.500 --> 00:23:06.420
You want chocolate?

526
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:06.900
Fine.

527
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:09.359
I'm going to get you chocolate with chillies and eggshells

528
00:23:09.359 --> 00:23:10.440
embedded in it.

529
00:23:10.500 --> 00:23:13.079
That's what that's what I get from the story.

530
00:23:13.140 --> 00:23:15.539
And on that level, I can enjoy it because it's Robert Holmes

531
00:23:15.539 --> 00:23:17.579
saying, you want to give me 2 weeks to writers?

532
00:23:17.579 --> 00:23:18.779
Fine here.

533
00:23:19.079 --> 00:23:22.140
Yeah, it's the rushing at the end of the season.

534
00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:24.180
I think we just had too much of the same thing for too long.

535
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:28.140
Well, I mean, I actually think season 6 has been more varied and

536
00:23:28.140 --> 00:23:32.519
interesting than season 5 and you're going to talk about...

537
00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:33.480
I'm reminding you.

538
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:34.140
Yes.

539
00:23:34.140 --> 00:23:36.000
Foreshadowing.

540
00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:40.980
Because I, I mean, I've, I didn't like season 5 until the very

541
00:23:40.980 --> 00:23:41.220
end.

542
00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:43.559
I thought the very end of season 5 is where they get the base

543
00:23:43.559 --> 00:23:45.000
under siege formula, right?

544
00:23:45.059 --> 00:23:46.680
This season...

545
00:23:46.740 --> 00:23:48.299
Yeah, like in Fury and Wheel.

546
00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:51.599
But this season, I think, has at least tried to do some of the

547
00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:54.180
crazy things that we got in the heart and all era.

548
00:23:54.240 --> 00:23:55.980
And I kind of like that.

549
00:23:56.160 --> 00:23:58.019
I don't think this comes off.

550
00:23:58.079 --> 00:23:59.400
I didn't find it very entertaining.

551
00:23:59.460 --> 00:24:02.700
Can I venture to use the word tiresome to describe it?

552
00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:05.039
I would have never thought you'd describe it.

553
00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:07.980
I think it would have really worked as a Tom story.

554
00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:10.619
Well, I sort of had a lot of fun with this.

555
00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:13.980
Yeah, I would have, and it would have been nice to have someone

556
00:24:13.980 --> 00:24:18.599
who wasn't just eye-gougingly terrible playing Milo Clancy.

557
00:24:18.660 --> 00:24:21.900
I mean, I really think he is just appallingly bad.

558
00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:25.680
I think that's a genuine piece of actual human hair on his face.

559
00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:29.279
Everything looks like it's been thrown across the room.

560
00:24:29.339 --> 00:24:30.299
Yeah, awful.

561
00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:31.859
Just awful, shockingly bad.

562
00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:33.119
And that accent and all of that.

563
00:24:33.180 --> 00:24:34.980
And it's not a misconceived character.

564
00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:39.359
You know, we'll see Firefly takes the well worn tropes of the

565
00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:43.259
Western and applies them to a sort of space opera in a way that

566
00:24:43.259 --> 00:24:46.200
this attempts to, but it does it in a way that doesn't make you

567
00:24:46.200 --> 00:24:50.160
want to sort of, you know, beat your head against the wall while

568
00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:51.240
it's on, you know?

569
00:24:51.299 --> 00:24:54.480
So it's not that the characters misconceived at all.

570
00:24:54.539 --> 00:24:59.759
It is that sort of corn pone down home, crummy accent that he does

571
00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:02.220
and the stupid moustache.

572
00:25:02.279 --> 00:25:06.000
And it's not helped by the fact, you know, again, there's like one

573
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:07.079
photo of him.

574
00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:13.079
You know, so it's the endless looking stupid, you know, over and

575
00:25:13.079 --> 00:25:15.119
over again in the recon that we have to put up with.

576
00:25:15.180 --> 00:25:18.660
You know, I realise I haven't really said much positive about this

577
00:25:18.660 --> 00:25:19.079
story.

578
00:25:19.140 --> 00:25:23.819
So I will say my big positive for this story, and it's something

579
00:25:23.819 --> 00:25:26.160
we commented on in the protons.

580
00:25:26.220 --> 00:25:30.059
We have a far stronger female character written by Robert Holmes

581
00:25:30.059 --> 00:25:32.579
in the shape of Madeline Siegrie.

582
00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:33.779
She's a complex character.

583
00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:35.160
She has her own motivations.

584
00:25:35.220 --> 00:25:37.680
She is not truly good and virtuous.

585
00:25:37.740 --> 00:25:39.359
She is not truly evil and horrible.

586
00:25:39.420 --> 00:25:43.920
And I think she is easily the most interesting part in this.

587
00:25:43.980 --> 00:25:47.819
And once again, she has a slightly flirtatious relationship with

588
00:25:47.819 --> 00:25:48.240
the doctor.

589
00:25:48.299 --> 00:25:49.980
And it's always...

590
00:25:49.980 --> 00:25:50.819
It's a different thing, isn't it?

591
00:25:50.940 --> 00:25:53.160
I'm assuming she's blonde, even though we can't tell.

592
00:25:53.220 --> 00:25:55.380
But it's always blonde women of a certain age.

593
00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:58.859
You know, that you throw them in.

594
00:25:58.920 --> 00:26:00.420
Yeah.

595
00:26:00.420 --> 00:26:03.420
So, you know, if nothing else, that's a really good thing to come

596
00:26:03.420 --> 00:26:04.019
out of the story.

597
00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:05.519
Robert Holmes is writing best for women.

598
00:26:05.579 --> 00:26:06.480
Yeah.

599
00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:08.759
She reminded me a bit of Kraut Tim and...

600
00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:09.720
I was just going to say, yeah.

601
00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:12.000
She's left standing at the end of it.

602
00:26:12.059 --> 00:26:14.099
You know, she's a lady in an office.

603
00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:16.259
She's not quite as fabulous.

604
00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:20.220
Keeps the desk, good. to keep the desk, to own the furniture, which

605
00:26:20.220 --> 00:26:22.799
in any divorce is okay. should get the house as well.

606
00:26:22.859 --> 00:26:24.420
I think.

607
00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:26.880
Well, I think she gets the planet, so that's something.

608
00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:28.920
No, no, she goes to prison, don't they?

609
00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:30.539
taking her off for trial.

610
00:26:30.599 --> 00:26:31.500
She gets a big house.

611
00:26:31.559 --> 00:26:32.940
She gets to be in the beach.

612
00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:34.319
Look, I'm sure that'd be nice to her.

613
00:26:34.380 --> 00:26:36.660
Yeah, I'm sure they'd be lenient.

614
00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:39.299
Well, she'd break off bits of her argonite hair.

615
00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:40.980
That ignite hair.

616
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:41.700
What the hell is that?

617
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:42.240
Do we know it?

618
00:26:42.359 --> 00:26:43.319
A secretary has it as well.

619
00:26:43.380 --> 00:26:44.220
I don't know.

620
00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:48.599
I think it's just a status symbol, like, works on a Troy's wigs in

621
00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:49.980
Star Trek, the next generation.

622
00:26:50.039 --> 00:26:51.420
Yeah maybe that's it.

623
00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:52.980
It is very strange.

624
00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:54.059
It is very strange.

625
00:26:54.119 --> 00:26:55.799
I think Cornell has a theory.

626
00:26:55.859 --> 00:26:58.980
Yeah, sorry, so it's the status thing I was thinking of, Nigel

627
00:26:58.980 --> 00:27:00.599
Baron in next generation.

628
00:27:00.660 --> 00:27:04.799
So it stays simple to look like a washed up Vegas showgirl. science

629
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:05.819
fiction troops.

630
00:27:05.880 --> 00:27:10.680
No, it's either about time or the discontinuity guide that

631
00:27:10.680 --> 00:27:14.819
suggests that she's using a head as a kind of showroom for the

632
00:27:14.819 --> 00:27:16.859
company's main product. time.

633
00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:20.099
She's a mutual, isn't she?

634
00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:20.880
She is.

635
00:27:20.940 --> 00:27:22.079
She's a proto-mutoid.

636
00:27:22.140 --> 00:27:23.400
Golden mutoid.

637
00:27:23.460 --> 00:27:23.940
Yeah.

638
00:27:23.940 --> 00:27:26.579
When you get to the other side of the board and you get king

639
00:27:26.579 --> 00:27:27.240
there's a mutoid.

640
00:27:27.299 --> 00:27:27.720
That what happens.

641
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:31.740
Okay, you lose your black fibreglass head thing.

642
00:27:31.799 --> 00:27:32.460
Yeah, yeah.

643
00:27:33.180 --> 00:27:36.240
Now you just beat on the blood of script editors.

644
00:27:36.420 --> 00:27:41.519
Well, we've spent a lot of time talking about things that aren't

645
00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:42.420
the space pirates.

646
00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:46.859
Look, it's the one I usually give a miss to just because it's a

647
00:27:46.859 --> 00:27:47.220
thing.

648
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:49.980
It's a thing at the end of the series and has whizzy spaceships.

649
00:27:49.980 --> 00:27:52.380
And as a boy, I would have loved it had I been watching this

650
00:27:52.380 --> 00:27:53.579
season for all the things.

651
00:27:53.640 --> 00:27:54.660
It's for kids.

652
00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:56.640
If you'd been able to see it too, I think.

653
00:27:56.700 --> 00:27:58.500
It doesn't help that you can't see it.

654
00:27:58.559 --> 00:28:00.000
It's totally good for kids.

655
00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:02.099
And it does some clever things.

656
00:28:02.099 --> 00:28:05.160
And but I think what it is, and we're feeling the ennui that

657
00:28:05.160 --> 00:28:10.200
Trouton himself was feeling is it's kind of, it's kind of hard to

658
00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:11.460
watch these last few stories.

659
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:15.779
I think getting a sense of drudgery that the actor himself is

660
00:28:15.779 --> 00:28:19.200
going through is really doing his best and pushing against it and

661
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:21.180
that's never a comfortable thing to watch.

662
00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:24.420
Now, I have heard from a few of you at home, dear listeners, that

663
00:28:24.420 --> 00:28:28.559
you actually like to listen to the podcast while you are watching

664
00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:32.759
these stories and what we're saying might be putting you off.

665
00:28:32.819 --> 00:28:36.960
Something I am going to recommend is a website called Hooflicks

666
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:38.940
who do cutdown versions of stories.

667
00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:39.539
Flex.

668
00:28:39.660 --> 00:28:44.579
Sorry, who flicks with an I, not who flexes in that top shot of

669
00:28:44.579 --> 00:28:45.599
Matt Smith doing the routes.

670
00:28:45.660 --> 00:28:49.140
I was thinking was it, yes, listen, Hamish, what's his face and

671
00:28:49.140 --> 00:28:53.099
Fraser Heinz auditioning self for selfies.

672
00:28:53.099 --> 00:28:53.700
No.

673
00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:55.440
No, but I think we need to span the future.

674
00:28:55.859 --> 00:29:01.680
No, but Hooflix has actually done a 50 minute audio edit of the

675
00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:03.839
space pirates to try and tighten it up a bit.

676
00:29:03.900 --> 00:29:07.319
So those of you who don't want to sit through off 6 episodes like

677
00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:07.980
we've had to.

678
00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:10.680
I do hardly recommend that and we'll put that in the show notes.

679
00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:13.200
So see, when you said while, I actually thought you meant it the

680
00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:16.680
same time that people were watching it and what listening to the

681
00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:17.220
podcast.

682
00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:18.599
I have had 2 people say that to me.

683
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:19.740
Jamie Bave.

684
00:29:19.799 --> 00:29:20.640
Hello, Jamie.

685
00:29:20.940 --> 00:29:23.339
So Brent Wilkins.

686
00:29:23.819 --> 00:29:27.240
So I recommend that you get 2 iPod touches.

687
00:29:27.299 --> 00:29:27.960
You know what I mean?

688
00:29:28.019 --> 00:29:32.039
And just play, like, press start at the same time on the who flex

689
00:29:32.039 --> 00:29:32.940
version of the park.

690
00:29:32.940 --> 00:29:35.460
And I can't believe that we're not going to go on about the space

691
00:29:35.460 --> 00:29:37.799
pirates for another 20 minutes in this episode.

692
00:29:37.799 --> 00:29:41.039
So you could just listen to them at exactly the same time in one

693
00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:41.819
in each year.

694
00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:44.579
Well, I suppose what you could do is you could slow us down to

695
00:29:44.579 --> 00:29:45.779
about one.4.

696
00:29:45.900 --> 00:29:48.299
Oh, I always listen to the podcast.

697
00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:49.980
I like to savour it.

698
00:29:52.380 --> 00:29:56.160
Yeah, I actually sound like Barry White, the way I listen to the

699
00:29:56.160 --> 00:29:56.579
podcast.

700
00:29:57.420 --> 00:29:59.220
That's terrible.

701
00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:01.559
Space Pirates.

702
00:30:01.619 --> 00:30:04.079
I really I've never bothered with it, to be honest with you.

703
00:30:04.140 --> 00:30:05.700
That's why they might have been quieter.

704
00:30:05.759 --> 00:30:06.779
I watched bits of it.

705
00:30:06.839 --> 00:30:09.539
I've sat through sort of, but it's just never grabbed me.

706
00:30:09.599 --> 00:30:11.940
If I was 10, I would have just loved it.

707
00:30:19.380 --> 00:30:21.539
Oh, here we are.

708
00:30:21.960 --> 00:30:24.779
This is, this is a hard one.

709
00:30:24.839 --> 00:30:25.920
It is, it is.

710
00:30:25.980 --> 00:30:27.059
It's hard because it's absurd.

711
00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:29.220
Do you know what we're saying with this one, boys and girls

712
00:30:29.220 --> 00:30:30.299
sitting amongst me?

713
00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:34.500
This isn't just about the end of Patrick Troughton's reign of

714
00:30:34.500 --> 00:30:37.200
Doctor Who, and I think Nathan, you have something to say about

715
00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:40.920
what it actually also is about the end, maybe or...

716
00:30:40.980 --> 00:30:42.599
Oh, it's about the end of the show, isn't it?

717
00:30:42.660 --> 00:30:44.039
Yeah, I cancelled.

718
00:30:44.099 --> 00:30:47.640
I was really wanting to oppose you on that one and say, no, it's

719
00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:50.579
about the beginning of a show called Doctor Who's spelt fully

720
00:30:50.579 --> 00:30:51.180
Doctor Who.

721
00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:54.359
It's last time we see DR dot on the credits.

722
00:30:54.420 --> 00:30:58.079
But I actually think it's about the death of the 60s, and the

723
00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:02.880
death of the revolution, and Patrick being the sinequanon, the 5th

724
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:06.059
element of the revolution of what it is to be a 60s

725
00:31:06.059 --> 00:31:06.779
revolutionary.

726
00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:10.500
The doctor has always been expect, except perhaps with Billy, has

727
00:31:10.500 --> 00:31:12.720
always been the zeitgeist of the time.

728
00:31:12.779 --> 00:31:14.220
And he will be from now on.

729
00:31:14.279 --> 00:31:17.880
He's of the period that it's actually filmed in whatever you want

730
00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:19.740
to say about him being timeless.

731
00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:23.160
He's of even down to his clothes, his what he is in the period

732
00:31:23.160 --> 00:31:23.819
that it's made.

733
00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:27.839
I think even Billy is, you know, in the war machines, he fits into

734
00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:29.700
the Inferno.

735
00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:32.579
He loves Vicki, who's, you know, that symbol of youth revolution.

736
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:34.200
Yeah, he's very youthful.

737
00:31:34.259 --> 00:31:36.660
But Billy's an anti-hero and he belongs out of time.

738
00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:39.359
He is a grandfather, because we mentioned before, grandparents in

739
00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:40.619
the 60s did look like that.

740
00:31:40.680 --> 00:31:41.880
They were rewarding children.

741
00:31:41.940 --> 00:31:44.759
This one's about how this the revolution didn't work.

742
00:31:44.819 --> 00:31:46.380
It didn't come across.

743
00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:47.339
It didn't happen.

744
00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:49.559
San Francisco fell apart.

745
00:31:50.160 --> 00:31:55.079
We'll talk about what Ronald Reagan as governor of California was

746
00:31:55.079 --> 00:32:00.119
doing with riot squads and bullets, firing into the crowd.

747
00:32:00.180 --> 00:32:01.799
I don't know why it doesn't get a mention now.

748
00:32:01.859 --> 00:32:06.000
We talk about how harsh the some police are now with student

749
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:06.839
uprisings.

750
00:32:06.900 --> 00:32:10.740
This is when it was actually going on in the US and in the UK as

751
00:32:10.740 --> 00:32:11.339
well there were.

752
00:32:11.460 --> 00:32:13.859
There were difficulties at the beginnings of race violence.

753
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:15.180
But yeah, we've got this right here.

754
00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:19.019
And it does it against a backdrop of various wars and wars are

755
00:32:19.019 --> 00:32:20.460
about revolution.

756
00:32:20.519 --> 00:32:25.440
Wars are about wanting to take what one country or one community

757
00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:27.299
has and change it to what you have.

758
00:32:27.420 --> 00:32:29.940
You know, so the big one we've got here.

759
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:32.700
You would hope so, except that this one's about a war that

760
00:32:32.700 --> 00:32:36.359
everyone agreed by this stage was the most awful time.

761
00:32:36.420 --> 00:32:40.680
It was to this point, it was the most carnage the most lives lost

762
00:32:40.680 --> 00:32:42.000
in the most horrendous way.

763
00:32:42.059 --> 00:32:46.920
Up until this point, I suspect still now. unless we're including

764
00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:47.519
Afghanistan.

765
00:32:47.640 --> 00:32:49.740
No, no, I mean, you're talking this is it.

766
00:32:49.740 --> 00:32:50.819
Yeah, this is it.

767
00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:52.680
You weren't allowed.

768
00:32:52.740 --> 00:32:54.119
The British censors.

769
00:32:54.180 --> 00:32:58.440
I was only up until the 50s and then up until the 30s, only poetry

770
00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:01.500
was allowed to be published about this war.

771
00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:07.140
Plays only started and comment was in the 50s and dad's army

772
00:33:07.140 --> 00:33:08.400
hadn't appeared on TV yet.

773
00:33:08.460 --> 00:33:12.539
The only humourous response, if you can like it, the only ironic

774
00:33:12.539 --> 00:33:15.119
response as were to the Second World War, this was still seen as

775
00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:15.720
too awful.

776
00:33:15.779 --> 00:33:18.900
I think it's really extraordinary and brave to be setting the end

777
00:33:18.900 --> 00:33:22.019
of Doctor Who, if you like. at a point where there's no

778
00:33:22.019 --> 00:33:22.680
compromise.

779
00:33:22.740 --> 00:33:23.700
What does Paddy say?

780
00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:24.660
Let's get out of here.

781
00:33:24.839 --> 00:33:28.559
Yeah, he doesn't attempt to come in and save anything.

782
00:33:28.619 --> 00:33:31.440
I think it's very interesting that this season starts with one

783
00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:35.460
producer who commissioned a story about how wonderful war is and

784
00:33:35.460 --> 00:33:40.259
we must find everyone and it ends with another producer. having

785
00:33:40.259 --> 00:33:43.859
this 10 episode story talk about how horrible war is.

786
00:33:44.160 --> 00:33:47.640
So can we can we talk about how it starts?

787
00:33:47.700 --> 00:33:52.740
Like we arrive in the middle of World War one.

788
00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:57.480
We see barbed wire in just about the 1st shot and there's bombs

789
00:33:57.480 --> 00:34:01.619
and gunfire and a period ambulance, we're very, very quickly in

790
00:34:01.619 --> 00:34:02.519
the 1st World War.

791
00:34:02.579 --> 00:34:05.700
But it's actually the 1st time that the TARDIS has ever landed in

792
00:34:05.700 --> 00:34:07.019
20th century. history.

793
00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:07.859
I right about that?

794
00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:08.699
Yes.

795
00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:11.400
So we've never been...

796
00:34:11.460 --> 00:34:12.599
Oh, with one exception.

797
00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:16.739
The Feast of Stephen, but it's the 1st time we've had a proper

798
00:34:16.739 --> 00:34:19.860
story, said in 20th century history, where knowledge of huge

799
00:34:19.860 --> 00:34:20.579
throwaway gags.

800
00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:20.940
Yes.

801
00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:21.599
Okay.

802
00:34:21.719 --> 00:34:24.900
But it's clear sort of straight away that we actually aren't

803
00:34:24.900 --> 00:34:26.159
really sure where we are.

804
00:34:26.219 --> 00:34:30.599
So like the gorgeously, fabulously posh lady Jennifer who's

805
00:34:30.599 --> 00:34:32.280
driving the ambulance.

806
00:34:32.340 --> 00:34:34.500
She isn't sure where we are.

807
00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:37.800
You know, the doctor says that we're apparently on earth.

808
00:34:37.860 --> 00:34:42.059
And there are just these quiet hints that we might not be in on

809
00:34:42.059 --> 00:34:42.719
earth at all.

810
00:34:42.780 --> 00:34:45.659
And they're just in the dialogue, but basically, this is just

811
00:34:45.659 --> 00:34:46.619
World War one.

812
00:34:46.679 --> 00:34:50.579
And it's a period of time where the doctor can't cope.

813
00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:53.400
So he can cope with Daleks and Cyberman.

814
00:34:53.460 --> 00:34:55.199
He can talk his way out of things here.

815
00:34:55.260 --> 00:34:58.679
Here is sort of subjected to a court martial and sentenced to

816
00:34:58.679 --> 00:35:00.539
death by firing squad.

817
00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:02.699
And at the end of the episode, he's apparently shot.

818
00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:06.119
Like the episode ends with him tied to a post and you hear the

819
00:35:06.119 --> 00:35:08.820
gunfight, gunfire going straight at him.

820
00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:13.380
And it is this thing where faced with real human evil and real

821
00:35:13.380 --> 00:35:18.360
proper history rather than stupid science fiction monsters, he's

822
00:35:18.360 --> 00:35:19.500
completely out of his dad.

823
00:35:19.559 --> 00:35:20.880
Can we just take a pause there?

824
00:35:20.940 --> 00:35:23.940
Nathan, did you just say that you therefore feel that the

825
00:35:23.940 --> 00:35:29.280
historicals are far more engaging for a viewer than perhaps the

826
00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:30.420
shooter historicals?

827
00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:32.099
Thank you for the vindication.

828
00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:33.539
It really is the end of it.

829
00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:35.219
Brilliantly the doctor.

830
00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:37.800
I was going to add, Brendan, what do you think?

831
00:35:37.860 --> 00:35:41.280
I was going to add that this story is so much stronger until the

832
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:42.480
spaciness comes in.

833
00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:46.380
And it's not just the folk that BBC getting everything down to the

834
00:35:46.380 --> 00:35:49.739
King's Regulations issue being the right font and that, yes, I was

835
00:35:49.739 --> 00:35:51.360
nerdy enough to look it up.

836
00:35:51.420 --> 00:35:54.719
The tin mugs are accurate for the period that they're drinking

837
00:35:54.719 --> 00:35:57.480
from, the stuff on the walls, the paper that they're holding

838
00:35:57.480 --> 00:35:59.159
everything looks exactly right.

839
00:35:59.219 --> 00:36:02.880
So when he goes, when General Smythe goes in and looks at the woo

840
00:36:02.460 --> 00:36:07.679
woo screen. the 1st shutter, it feels so right, and that's as a

841
00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:09.780
period piece, which is why you get that friction.

842
00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:10.800
It's a real thing happening.

843
00:36:10.860 --> 00:36:12.659
And the doctor is out of his depth.

844
00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:16.019
General Smythe as a character is much more disturbing until he

845
00:36:16.019 --> 00:36:17.340
goes spacey.

846
00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:20.280
He's much more, he's much more dangerous as a mad journal.

847
00:36:20.340 --> 00:36:24.719
In a way, I actually think it makes him even more dangerous

848
00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:28.199
because, like you say, Richard, people weren't discussing the

849
00:36:28.199 --> 00:36:29.340
First World War at this point.

850
00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:30.840
And so...

851
00:36:30.840 --> 00:36:33.360
Well, not in media in TV shows.

852
00:36:33.360 --> 00:36:35.340
For entertainment. now, Yeah, it was.

853
00:36:35.400 --> 00:36:38.639
But something that does come up in entertainment based on that

854
00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:40.440
Gallipoli, breaking around.

855
00:36:40.500 --> 00:36:41.460
Much later, yeah, yeah.

856
00:36:41.519 --> 00:36:45.599
It's all about how mad and insane and stupid the generals are.

857
00:36:45.659 --> 00:36:48.960
General, so Anthony Cecil Hog, but they melt it. is completely

858
00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:49.440
insane.

859
00:36:49.500 --> 00:36:50.519
And that matter.

860
00:36:50.579 --> 00:36:54.840
And both he and Smythe are based on General Hay of this period, who

861
00:36:54.840 --> 00:36:57.780
was literally sitting sitting way back in chateaux, sending

862
00:36:57.780 --> 00:37:00.480
soldiers off to their deaths and being drunk on the fantastic.

863
00:37:00.539 --> 00:37:02.400
Yeah, absolutely.

864
00:37:02.460 --> 00:37:08.579
So what we have with Noel Coleman as General Smythe finding that

865
00:37:08.579 --> 00:37:13.619
screen and being controlled or speaking to someone in another

866
00:37:13.619 --> 00:37:19.320
place in another time, we have what at the time was quite possibly

867
00:37:19.320 --> 00:37:22.860
a controversial explanation as to why the generals were nuts.

868
00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:24.480
The generals were nuts because they are not us.

869
00:37:24.539 --> 00:37:26.639
You're lettering, aren't you?

870
00:37:26.699 --> 00:37:27.840
No, and I think that that's right.

871
00:37:27.900 --> 00:37:30.300
And I have to think that this is Malcolm Hulk, and I have to think

872
00:37:30.300 --> 00:37:31.199
that it's intentional.

873
00:37:31.260 --> 00:37:35.820
I'm not a historian and I'm sort of lamentably ignorant about 20th

874
00:37:35.820 --> 00:37:36.599
century history.

875
00:37:36.659 --> 00:37:40.920
And when it comes to an explanation of the causes for World War II

876
00:37:40.920 --> 00:37:43.260
that always seems to be sort of comprehensible and fairly

877
00:37:43.260 --> 00:37:43.920
straightforward.

878
00:37:43.980 --> 00:37:48.719
But World War one seems to be this sort of bizarre, complex, tawdry

879
00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:50.460
sort of colonial thing.

880
00:37:50.760 --> 00:37:55.559
And clearly, it wasn't in the interests of any of the people

881
00:37:55.559 --> 00:37:59.099
fighting at any of the actual soldiers fighting it that it should

882
00:37:59.099 --> 00:37:59.820
go on.

883
00:37:59.880 --> 00:38:03.659
I mean, there were 1000000s of people killed for King and Empire

884
00:38:03.659 --> 00:38:07.619
which are just kind of crazy things, you know, that are used to

885
00:38:07.619 --> 00:38:10.260
inspire the troops. you know, people who are conscientious

886
00:38:10.260 --> 00:38:10.800
objectors.

887
00:38:10.860 --> 00:38:14.639
They would male, you know, white feathers to them and stuff.

888
00:38:14.699 --> 00:38:18.420
There was all this strong moral pressure about participating

889
00:38:18.420 --> 00:38:21.239
because it was felt to be a moral obligation to participate.

890
00:38:21.300 --> 00:38:23.400
And somehow the ruling classes.

891
00:38:23.460 --> 00:38:28.139
And like I could be just giantly off beam here and if I've said

892
00:38:28.139 --> 00:38:31.440
anything massively offensive or historically inaccurate, just

893
00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:32.340
email Richard.

894
00:38:33.420 --> 00:38:39.780
So they have the power to compel these people, the rulers, the

895
00:38:39.780 --> 00:38:45.780
generals have the power to compel these people to obey, okay?

896
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:50.159
And that power is, you know, the power of the chain of command, you

897
00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:52.619
know, the power of the officer, all of those sorts of things.

898
00:38:52.679 --> 00:38:57.000
But it's, it's, it's specious, it's made up that power.

899
00:38:57.059 --> 00:39:02.159
And so it's represented here as this magical hypnotic power, which

900
00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:06.480
enables the general to force people to do whatever he wants.

901
00:39:06.539 --> 00:39:12.059
And then later on, we'll meet Von Weich, who is on the German side

902
00:39:12.059 --> 00:39:15.539
who has the same power and has a lot in common.

903
00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:17.699
In fact, we see them together, don't we?

904
00:39:17.820 --> 00:39:18.480
Spoiler alert.

905
00:39:18.539 --> 00:39:24.780
So they have more in common than the people who are fighting than

906
00:39:24.780 --> 00:39:27.960
they do with the people who are fighting on the different sides.

907
00:39:28.019 --> 00:39:32.639
And so we do have, we do have just sort of science fictionalise

908
00:39:32.639 --> 00:39:38.639
the way you said, this commentary on the power of people to trick

909
00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:42.420
or compel other people into fighting for things that aren't in

910
00:39:42.420 --> 00:39:42.900
their interests.

911
00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:46.860
And very importantly, they're tricking good people.

912
00:39:46.920 --> 00:39:52.860
Lady Jennifer, Lieutenant Carstairs, look, the German officer

913
00:39:52.860 --> 00:39:57.239
Captain Ransom, you know, they're all good sympathetic characters

914
00:39:57.239 --> 00:40:00.300
and well-rounded within a few lines of dialogue, which is Malcolm

915
00:40:00.300 --> 00:40:03.900
Hawk's trick, but they are made to do.

916
00:40:04.199 --> 00:40:10.260
Evil, terrible things, you know, saying that the doctor is a spy

917
00:40:10.260 --> 00:40:12.599
et cetera, et cetera, by orders from their general.

918
00:40:12.659 --> 00:40:15.480
And yes, they're induced orders, but it's just carrying that

919
00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:18.059
carrying that metaphor, carrying that allegory forward.

920
00:40:18.119 --> 00:40:23.280
It's terrible because it's shown again as a mirror of 1st door

921
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:27.719
hall and the 60s revolution, which is really what this is about.

922
00:40:27.780 --> 00:40:30.360
It's not about the 1st World War. about what we've been seeing in

923
00:40:30.360 --> 00:40:35.280
the media for the last 4 or 5 years through Vietnam, that genuine

924
00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:38.699
decent people are manipulated, like puppets, like actors with a

925
00:40:38.699 --> 00:40:42.719
script, by those, Illuminati, like, again, we mentioned the

926
00:40:42.719 --> 00:40:46.619
prisoner, the upper echelons don't really belong to any side.

927
00:40:46.679 --> 00:40:47.699
They're their own side.

928
00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:53.099
So we see, as you say, we see the 2 so-called generals from

929
00:40:53.099 --> 00:40:55.500
opposite sides actually meeting together, just like some

930
00:40:55.500 --> 00:40:58.260
Illuminati pyramid, which, by the way, was getting a lot of

931
00:40:58.260 --> 00:41:01.619
attention at the time from California, that was the 1st time we

932
00:41:01.619 --> 00:41:04.920
were hearing the stuff of that there's actually a powerful elite

933
00:41:04.920 --> 00:41:07.860
that's running the world, and Patrick McGoon's prisoner really

934
00:41:07.860 --> 00:41:12.599
encapsulates that. this is a very strong reflection of the mood of

935
00:41:12.599 --> 00:41:13.619
that as well.

936
00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:17.340
This is about how we were supposed to change the world and it

937
00:41:17.340 --> 00:41:20.340
hasn't happened because we haven't been able to get at the

938
00:41:20.340 --> 00:41:22.739
isolated minority who are still in control.

939
00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:24.059
That's why this is so dark.

940
00:41:24.119 --> 00:41:29.039
So what we have is this situation where there's a giant base and

941
00:41:29.039 --> 00:41:32.699
various zones in which all of the world's wars are being fought.

942
00:41:32.760 --> 00:41:36.300
And although it doesn't say that in the story, thematically what

943
00:41:36.300 --> 00:41:38.639
it seems like is what you've said.

944
00:41:38.699 --> 00:41:42.840
These base is full of people, the people who run things, and those

945
00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:47.760
people are making those wars happen because they have a plan of

946
00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:51.539
their own, which we learn, but that has nothing to do.

947
00:41:51.599 --> 00:41:54.900
It's not told to any of the people participating in the world.

948
00:41:54.960 --> 00:41:56.280
You can't read it from where you are.

949
00:41:56.340 --> 00:41:58.320
No, you're too small on the map. right.

950
00:41:58.380 --> 00:42:04.019
Do you think it's then possible that the reason that Malcolm Hawk

951
00:42:04.019 --> 00:42:07.559
and Terrence Sticks didn't include the Second World War is

952
00:42:07.559 --> 00:42:12.300
actually because unlike the 1st World War, it is difficult to

953
00:42:12.300 --> 00:42:15.659
criticise the purpose of Britain getting involved in the Second

954
00:42:15.659 --> 00:42:16.139
World War?

955
00:42:16.199 --> 00:42:19.199
It was seen as the Good War and the Just War, whereas this was

956
00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:20.699
still...

957
00:42:20.760 --> 00:42:23.159
I think very interesting, and I'm glad you raised that.

958
00:42:23.219 --> 00:42:27.059
The reason this was, you know, partly made might have been that

959
00:42:27.059 --> 00:42:30.480
Richard Attenborough's, oh, what a lovely war had only just been

960
00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:31.500
on cinema.

961
00:42:31.559 --> 00:42:35.159
And in fact, the locations of this are the very same locations

962
00:42:35.159 --> 00:42:39.480
Brighton tip, that Dickie Attenborough's thing, filmed by Charles

963
00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:44.280
Crichton, who wrote the inestimably brilliant journey, Journey

964
00:42:44.280 --> 00:42:45.840
into Space, Journey into Space.

965
00:42:45.900 --> 00:42:49.139
And I just listened to it again on BBC 4 internet radio.

966
00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:54.659
It's the 50s Dandair kind of radio show about British astronauts

967
00:42:54.659 --> 00:42:57.480
that was the last program on radio.

968
00:42:57.539 --> 00:43:00.539
The same here in Australia too, because I've asked my old rellos

969
00:43:00.539 --> 00:43:04.860
ancient rellos, who that it beat TV ratings, more people would

970
00:43:04.860 --> 00:43:07.500
turn off the TV to listen to Charles Crichton's journey into

971
00:43:07.500 --> 00:43:07.860
space.

972
00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:10.500
He later did The Goons.

973
00:43:10.559 --> 00:43:12.059
He did a lot of directing of the Goons.

974
00:43:12.119 --> 00:43:16.199
He directed a fair hitch of the 1st season of Space 1999.

975
00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:18.239
Did you do a fish called Wanda?

976
00:43:18.300 --> 00:43:19.860
You know what?

977
00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:21.239
He did.

978
00:43:21.300 --> 00:43:22.320
He did.

979
00:43:22.380 --> 00:43:23.699
That's right.

980
00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:24.059
Thank you.

981
00:43:24.119 --> 00:43:24.960
Charles Croydon.

982
00:43:25.019 --> 00:43:28.559
That's that famous line of lions led by donkeys, which was

983
00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:33.420
actually spoke on the Crimea, that it was used to define what

984
00:43:33.420 --> 00:43:35.699
happened in the 1st World War, and it's what the Australian

985
00:43:35.699 --> 00:43:39.179
writers were later saying, you know, happened to us at Gallipoli

986
00:43:39.179 --> 00:43:39.599
all the rest of it.

987
00:43:39.659 --> 00:43:45.480
This is, as you were saying, this is about a really sympathetic

988
00:43:45.480 --> 00:43:49.980
reviewing of how awfully wrong we got it, and there is no way to

989
00:43:49.980 --> 00:43:51.239
rescue it or redeem it.

990
00:43:51.300 --> 00:43:54.719
It's other than to say that people on a small human level acted

991
00:43:54.719 --> 00:43:57.119
heroically against odds where they could never have succeeded.

992
00:43:57.179 --> 00:43:59.820
And there are lots of bits of that, aren't there?

993
00:43:59.880 --> 00:44:03.360
There's lots of individual, heroic things, which I think is sort

994
00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:07.980
of is lovely to watch and people like Carstairs and, you know

995
00:44:07.980 --> 00:44:10.559
David Troughton's character and all of that sort of thing.

996
00:44:10.619 --> 00:44:12.179
Just for the moments, private more.

997
00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:14.159
It's great to see David Trouton, isn't it?

998
00:44:14.219 --> 00:44:17.039
Apparently that scene was added in and written as an audition

999
00:44:17.039 --> 00:44:18.780
piece for him just to see if he was okay.

1000
00:44:18.840 --> 00:44:21.900
And I think it was just done as a thank you to Patrick for

1001
00:44:21.900 --> 00:44:23.159
sticking through it for so long.

1002
00:44:23.219 --> 00:44:25.739
And he's terrific in that scene, I guess.

1003
00:44:25.860 --> 00:44:26.400
Absolutely.

1004
00:44:26.460 --> 00:44:27.719
That's the naughty German journal.

1005
00:44:27.780 --> 00:44:30.539
I'd also like to single out a particular parade, David Garfield

1006
00:44:30.539 --> 00:44:35.699
who plays Captain Born Reich. who just manages to be very, very

1007
00:44:35.699 --> 00:44:36.539
menacing.

1008
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:40.139
And as mentioned by Jane Sherwin, whose Lady Jennifer in the

1009
00:44:40.139 --> 00:44:43.500
making of somehow manages to be incredibly sexy, despite the fact

1010
00:44:43.500 --> 00:44:45.119
he's 5 foot 6.

1011
00:44:45.179 --> 00:44:45.900
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1012
00:44:45.960 --> 00:44:49.500
Oh, that kind of both... playing a horrible officer.

1013
00:44:49.559 --> 00:44:51.179
I'm not prescribing myself at all.

1014
00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:55.860
We should also say this is, did you ever read Fred and Jeffrey

1015
00:44:55.860 --> 00:44:57.780
Hoyle's SF when you were kids?

1016
00:44:57.840 --> 00:45:00.780
They were, they were kind of, but beginners of hardest, Seth, and

1017
00:45:00.780 --> 00:45:03.780
Fred Hoyle was a proper scientist, but he wrote a book that

1018
00:45:03.780 --> 00:45:06.179
everyone was reading at the time, apparently called October the

1019
00:45:06.179 --> 00:45:07.019
1st is too late.

1020
00:45:07.079 --> 00:45:07.800
I had it as a kid.

1021
00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:12.599
It's atomic blasts, caused disjunctions in the timelines.

1022
00:45:12.659 --> 00:45:15.480
And people are brought together just as happens in the beginning

1023
00:45:15.480 --> 00:45:16.019
of this story.

1024
00:45:16.139 --> 00:45:19.860
So it's worth having a look at, if you like, SF from the period as

1025
00:45:19.860 --> 00:45:20.039
well.

1026
00:45:20.099 --> 00:45:27.840
So we, Brendan and I were at Lords of Time 3 last weekend, just so

1027
00:45:27.840 --> 00:45:31.619
for a week ago, and Terrence Dix was in attendance, and Terrence

1028
00:45:31.619 --> 00:45:37.019
is a sort of famous raconteur, and I had spent the day before

1029
00:45:37.019 --> 00:45:40.860
reading the Doctor Who magazine archive of interviews with

1030
00:45:40.860 --> 00:45:44.460
Terrence, and Terrence pretty much word for word replicated those

1031
00:45:44.460 --> 00:45:46.739
things in his session in loads of time.

1032
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:48.000
Not that I'm complaining.

1033
00:45:48.059 --> 00:45:49.500
It was all pretty entertaining.

1034
00:45:49.559 --> 00:45:51.900
But he did talk about this story.

1035
00:45:51.900 --> 00:45:56.639
And he did sort of express the opinion that it was a little bit of

1036
00:45:56.639 --> 00:46:01.019
a runaround, that episode one was very strong, that episode 10 was

1037
00:46:01.019 --> 00:46:04.079
very strong, but the rest of it was all marking time and it was

1038
00:46:04.079 --> 00:46:07.619
all sort of repetitive escape battles, you know, that sort of

1039
00:46:07.619 --> 00:46:07.860
thing.

1040
00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:11.760
But I have to say that that's not how I see this at all.

1041
00:46:11.820 --> 00:46:12.780
No, no.

1042
00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:15.059
And Terrence did acknowledge in the interview that when it came

1043
00:46:15.059 --> 00:46:19.500
out on DVD, the 1st line of the review in Doctor Who magazine was

1044
00:46:19.500 --> 00:46:22.079
something like lines of Terrence Dix has been calling this a

1045
00:46:22.079 --> 00:46:24.300
runaround for 40 years and he's completely wrong.

1046
00:46:24.360 --> 00:46:26.820
And at that point of the interview, Terence just sort of threw his

1047
00:46:26.820 --> 00:46:28.019
hands up and, oh, what do I know?

1048
00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:33.300
But I think part of what makes his story so strong. is that, yeah

1049
00:46:33.300 --> 00:46:37.260
faced with having to write 10 episodes because Led and McCrimon

1050
00:46:37.260 --> 00:46:41.639
Dream Spinners, the impersonators, whatever you like, episodes

1051
00:46:41.639 --> 00:46:42.179
fell through.

1052
00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:46.679
And they needed something to go into a 10 episode slot.

1053
00:46:46.739 --> 00:46:49.679
They didn't have time to try to work with 2 writing teams.

1054
00:46:49.739 --> 00:46:51.719
So it's like, right, we'll have 110 episode thing.

1055
00:46:51.780 --> 00:46:53.219
Terrence Sticks, you have to write it.

1056
00:46:53.280 --> 00:46:55.739
Terrence turned to his, then landlord, Malcolm Hook.

1057
00:46:55.800 --> 00:46:59.340
They'd already written together for the Avengers and Malcolm Hawk

1058
00:46:59.340 --> 00:47:00.659
had written previously for Doctor Who.

1059
00:47:00.719 --> 00:47:01.920
James was a kept boy.

1060
00:47:01.980 --> 00:47:04.260
No, no, no.

1061
00:47:04.320 --> 00:47:05.639
When I say land, Lord.

1062
00:47:05.699 --> 00:47:09.179
I mean, literally, Malcolm Hawke owned his own house in the house

1063
00:47:09.179 --> 00:47:09.780
around the corner.

1064
00:47:09.840 --> 00:47:12.239
The cottage around the corner. all making sense.

1065
00:47:12.300 --> 00:47:13.019
Anyway.

1066
00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:19.019
And so they wrote it together at a rate of, I think, Terrence said

1067
00:47:19.019 --> 00:47:22.139
about 10 days per episode.

1068
00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:23.880
And when I say 10 days per episode.

1069
00:47:23.940 --> 00:47:25.500
It wasn't day one to 10 was episode one.

1070
00:47:25.559 --> 00:47:28.800
It was like day one to 5 was episode one, days 5 to 10 was one and

1071
00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:32.639
two, and so I think what makes it work is really, it's full

1072
00:47:32.639 --> 00:47:34.559
stories, which overlap.

1073
00:47:34.619 --> 00:47:38.280
So you've got the 1st story is they're in a war zone.

1074
00:47:38.340 --> 00:47:41.159
The 2nd story is, ah, they're in a war zone and someone else is

1075
00:47:41.159 --> 00:47:41.639
controlling it.

1076
00:47:41.699 --> 00:47:46.019
The 3rd story is we're going to go to the people controlling it

1077
00:47:46.019 --> 00:47:49.199
and we're going to mash them up and the 4th story is the now

1078
00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:53.039
famous episode 10 where the doctor's past catches up with him and

1079
00:47:53.039 --> 00:47:54.900
those stories all overlap.

1080
00:47:54.960 --> 00:47:57.840
And I think that really is part of success.

1081
00:47:57.900 --> 00:48:00.840
It's part of the reason that much further down the line, the

1082
00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:03.599
attempts to do something similar with trial of a time lord is less

1083
00:48:03.599 --> 00:48:06.539
successful because those stories are compartmentalised instead of

1084
00:48:06.539 --> 00:48:07.739
overlapping.

1085
00:48:07.800 --> 00:48:09.059
And plus they're terrible.

1086
00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:11.579
They're not terrible anywhere.

1087
00:48:11.639 --> 00:48:14.280
But the war games.

1088
00:48:14.340 --> 00:48:19.380
The war games kind of does what Doctor Who now does, which has a

1089
00:48:19.380 --> 00:48:24.059
series of self-contained stories, but also they have connections

1090
00:48:24.059 --> 00:48:25.260
weaving through them.

1091
00:48:25.320 --> 00:48:30.119
So, okay, we might have bits in this where people get locked up

1092
00:48:30.119 --> 00:48:31.079
and then escape.

1093
00:48:31.139 --> 00:48:33.239
But before they escape, they learn something new.

1094
00:48:33.300 --> 00:48:39.659
Well, I mean, I think I think that they do a great job of sort of

1095
00:48:39.659 --> 00:48:43.260
foreshadowing what's what's coming in episode 10.

1096
00:48:43.559 --> 00:48:46.619
And I think we should talk perhaps about episode 10 at the end

1097
00:48:46.619 --> 00:48:48.059
because I think it is quite different.

1098
00:48:48.119 --> 00:48:51.179
I think the story ends in episode 9 and then we go off to another

1099
00:48:51.179 --> 00:48:52.139
story in episode 10.

1100
00:48:52.380 --> 00:48:52.800
Yeah, absolutely.

1101
00:48:52.800 --> 00:48:58.320
You know, episode two, we see Smythe going into something that

1102
00:48:58.320 --> 00:49:04.019
dematerialises with the Tartar sound, you know, in episode two, we

1103
00:49:04.019 --> 00:49:07.320
start to see the control room that's controlling everything by

1104
00:49:07.320 --> 00:49:08.340
episode three.

1105
00:49:08.400 --> 00:49:10.019
What about that control?

1106
00:49:10.079 --> 00:49:11.820
I know. we talk about that?

1107
00:49:11.880 --> 00:49:13.739
Someone said something brilliant.

1108
00:49:13.800 --> 00:49:19.019
It was Toby Toby Hadoke and Rob Shearman in running through

1109
00:49:19.019 --> 00:49:20.219
corridors.

1110
00:49:20.280 --> 00:49:24.659
And they say, because by now, viewers at home, listeners at home

1111
00:49:24.659 --> 00:49:27.000
will know that the war zones are all fake.

1112
00:49:27.059 --> 00:49:30.179
They've all been created on this planet and there's a base in the

1113
00:49:30.179 --> 00:49:33.960
middle of it. which is real.

1114
00:49:34.199 --> 00:49:42.179
But as you said before, the war zones are meticulously creative

1115
00:49:42.179 --> 00:49:45.300
like all BBC popping, we really know their job.

1116
00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:47.940
And this one, once you get into the actual reality.

1117
00:49:48.059 --> 00:49:52.860
The real part is crazy psychedelic, talk to us.

1118
00:49:52.860 --> 00:49:56.519
Sergeant, Sergeant Stripes, silver and bread that you walk through

1119
00:49:56.519 --> 00:50:01.079
Negro. wibbly wobbly table tops that look like something straight

1120
00:50:01.079 --> 00:50:03.780
out of Casino Royale and under the 68 version.

1121
00:50:03.840 --> 00:50:05.820
There's lovely...

1122
00:50:05.880 --> 00:50:09.360
Yeah, you have those lovely tiles on the thing, the lighting.

1123
00:50:09.420 --> 00:50:11.219
These sort of clear plastic strips.

1124
00:50:11.340 --> 00:50:16.679
It's a panto game show to Ronnie's musical comedy, Sean Connery

1125
00:50:16.679 --> 00:50:18.539
but it all ends up lair.

1126
00:50:18.599 --> 00:50:22.619
It all looks so desperately hit, and we've not talked about any of

1127
00:50:22.619 --> 00:50:28.679
the characters who inhabit this strange psychedelic space. some

1128
00:50:28.679 --> 00:50:30.360
bitchy triumvirate.

1129
00:50:30.420 --> 00:50:34.739
But they all look like they're just hip cats, you know, who've

1130
00:50:34.739 --> 00:50:37.679
come from a jazz club or something.

1131
00:50:37.739 --> 00:50:39.659
Well, they're the exaggers, aren't they?

1132
00:50:39.719 --> 00:50:43.619
What, the 60s should have been, the rich hippies that took over.

1133
00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:47.219
So they modelled themselves on what the revolution was about, but

1134
00:50:47.219 --> 00:50:48.360
was all just superficial.

1135
00:50:48.420 --> 00:50:51.480
They just modelled themselves on the Nehrus, which was symbolic of

1136
00:50:51.480 --> 00:50:56.400
the Indian consciousness uprising there by Gandhi, of course. and

1137
00:50:56.400 --> 00:50:59.940
that there was there was supposed to be a collective consciousness

1138
00:50:59.940 --> 00:51:03.659
rising that would change the way governments are formed.

1139
00:51:03.719 --> 00:51:07.619
But of course, the ruling elite simply take the iconography and

1140
00:51:07.619 --> 00:51:09.659
change nothing at all underneath.

1141
00:51:09.719 --> 00:51:12.239
Yes, I really like that actually.

1142
00:51:12.300 --> 00:51:16.079
There is that sort of fabulous tension between how heap and up to

1143
00:51:16.079 --> 00:51:19.500
the minute and fabulous they all are in their day poor is and

1144
00:51:19.500 --> 00:51:19.860
how...

1145
00:51:19.860 --> 00:51:21.539
They see it as nothing but another consumer item.

1146
00:51:21.599 --> 00:51:23.820
There's no content in their thinking.

1147
00:51:23.820 --> 00:51:26.340
They're grindingly evil establishment, people.

1148
00:51:26.400 --> 00:51:28.920
It's unthinking, as you've seen on those last things.

1149
00:51:28.980 --> 00:51:34.139
It was great year for internet rivalry politically when those

1150
00:51:34.139 --> 00:51:39.059
bindings were published on the IQs of Republicans and Democrats in

1151
00:51:39.059 --> 00:51:39.599
the US.

1152
00:51:39.659 --> 00:51:43.199
The Democrats just sailed forward with much higher education

1153
00:51:43.199 --> 00:51:47.400
standards and more functional responses.

1154
00:51:47.460 --> 00:51:47.760
Yeah.

1155
00:51:47.820 --> 00:51:50.760
Now, I'm not sure where I'm going to go with what I'm actually

1156
00:51:50.760 --> 00:51:51.300
saying next.

1157
00:51:51.360 --> 00:51:52.320
It's just occurred to me.

1158
00:51:52.380 --> 00:51:56.519
But the clothing designs seem to be so important this year in

1159
00:51:56.519 --> 00:51:57.119
Doctor Who.

1160
00:51:57.179 --> 00:52:00.239
So we start off with the Dolcians who are weak, so let's put them

1161
00:52:00.239 --> 00:52:04.019
in dresses and the dominators with their huge shoulders, so they

1162
00:52:04.019 --> 00:52:06.300
are strong because they have a huge profile.

1163
00:52:06.360 --> 00:52:09.719
In the invasion, we have all the military uniform, so you can

1164
00:52:09.719 --> 00:52:13.019
trust the military, but you can't trust the man without the

1165
00:52:13.019 --> 00:52:13.679
collar.

1166
00:52:13.739 --> 00:52:17.519
And again, we have the villains who don't have collars in this.

1167
00:52:17.579 --> 00:52:19.679
You know, they don't have a traditional suit.

1168
00:52:19.739 --> 00:52:24.059
So like you're saying, Richard, they're taking the design of the

1169
00:52:24.059 --> 00:52:26.519
revolution, which is getting out of the suit and getting into

1170
00:52:26.519 --> 00:52:29.159
something more free flowing, but turning it into something

1171
00:52:29.159 --> 00:52:30.239
something evil.

1172
00:52:30.300 --> 00:52:33.599
In the future, we have the seeds of death, where they have all

1173
00:52:33.599 --> 00:52:37.139
their very high stiff collars and rubber outfits and they're all

1174
00:52:37.139 --> 00:52:38.340
very contained and what have you.

1175
00:52:38.460 --> 00:52:39.780
It depends on garments.

1176
00:52:39.840 --> 00:52:40.920
It depends on the garments.

1177
00:52:40.980 --> 00:52:44.519
Well, you've also got that friction within the writings writers

1178
00:52:44.519 --> 00:52:44.940
themselves.

1179
00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:47.039
I mean, Terence Dix has said to us.

1180
00:52:47.099 --> 00:52:48.780
He comes from a colonial family.

1181
00:52:48.840 --> 00:52:51.119
His family were prominent in India.

1182
00:52:51.179 --> 00:52:55.440
He's told us and that he believes that colonialism was a very good

1183
00:52:55.440 --> 00:52:57.960
thing for people under the empire.

1184
00:52:58.019 --> 00:53:01.199
It taught them the political structure that kept their country

1185
00:53:01.199 --> 00:53:04.320
going after the British moved out. whether or not you agree.

1186
00:53:04.440 --> 00:53:07.679
But you kind of got that here as well.

1187
00:53:07.739 --> 00:53:09.420
They're saying, sure.

1188
00:53:09.480 --> 00:53:13.019
I think it's also just a tick box, but it's futury.

1189
00:53:13.079 --> 00:53:14.460
Oh, yeah, yeah.

1190
00:53:14.519 --> 00:53:18.539
I think it is, but I do think it is striking and certainly, um, you

1191
00:53:18.539 --> 00:53:22.139
know, the show's done futury before, but it's never really done

1192
00:53:22.139 --> 00:53:23.039
anything like this.

1193
00:53:23.099 --> 00:53:25.139
And if you've never seen this story.

1194
00:53:25.199 --> 00:53:28.079
That is just the most remarkable thing.

1195
00:53:28.139 --> 00:53:29.219
They're beautiful.

1196
00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:32.639
The sets are stunningly beautiful and stunningly late 60s.

1197
00:53:32.699 --> 00:53:33.780
It's very game show.

1198
00:53:33.840 --> 00:53:37.019
And they're very musical into it.

1199
00:53:37.079 --> 00:53:41.099
The guillotine half-cut door is the security chief's office with

1200
00:53:41.099 --> 00:53:43.079
the psychedelic pattern on the wall.

1201
00:53:43.139 --> 00:53:43.679
Yeah.

1202
00:53:43.679 --> 00:53:46.860
And but the security chief himself is so square.

1203
00:53:46.860 --> 00:53:53.219
And, you know, what is super, you are, you know, God Shakespeare

1204
00:53:53.219 --> 00:53:56.280
as Lawrence Olivier doing, Richard. you know what?

1205
00:53:56.280 --> 00:53:58.199
Lots of fans make fun of James Bree.

1206
00:53:58.260 --> 00:54:00.119
I think he's great when everyone appears.

1207
00:54:00.179 --> 00:54:04.619
He plays it as cold and stylised. shut down as the person would

1208
00:54:04.619 --> 00:54:05.940
actually be and afraid.

1209
00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:06.900
He's very fearful.

1210
00:54:06.960 --> 00:54:08.099
That's his major motivation.

1211
00:54:08.159 --> 00:54:12.300
So in, in, in, can we talk about the transcript, the war chief, the

1212
00:54:12.300 --> 00:54:14.340
warlord, and the security chief?

1213
00:54:14.400 --> 00:54:16.199
Well, I was just going to say, security chief.

1214
00:54:16.380 --> 00:54:19.199
Yes, it is often people who are in charge of armed forces who are

1215
00:54:19.199 --> 00:54:22.019
very afraid and let that fear make their decisions.

1216
00:54:22.079 --> 00:54:22.440
They do.

1217
00:54:22.500 --> 00:54:25.019
We never get to see a security kitchen, but I bet he did a

1218
00:54:25.019 --> 00:54:29.699
terrific omelet of fina. coming in from the front.

1219
00:54:29.760 --> 00:54:34.079
So you've got the security chief and you've got the war chief.

1220
00:54:34.139 --> 00:54:38.219
And they're the main guys, you know, for a while.

1221
00:54:38.639 --> 00:54:43.619
So the war chief, he's like a sort of hipster Klingon, really

1222
00:54:43.619 --> 00:54:44.159
isn't he?

1223
00:54:44.159 --> 00:54:45.539
From the 1960s.

1224
00:54:46.019 --> 00:54:46.739
Fabulous fair.

1225
00:54:46.800 --> 00:54:48.719
What are those mutton burns?

1226
00:54:48.840 --> 00:54:49.500
I know.

1227
00:54:49.500 --> 00:54:52.079
And the moustache and things.

1228
00:54:52.139 --> 00:54:55.500
You only see them again in the mid 90s as arm tattoos.

1229
00:54:55.559 --> 00:54:57.960
Both Celtic swirls.

1230
00:54:58.019 --> 00:55:01.559
Yeah, not only did we have Le Metra a few stories ago.

1231
00:55:01.619 --> 00:55:05.280
We now have Leon Colbert back as the war chief from the reign of

1232
00:55:05.280 --> 00:55:05.639
terror.

1233
00:55:05.699 --> 00:55:06.719
Oh, is he?

1234
00:55:06.780 --> 00:55:08.219
It's the old Colbert.

1235
00:55:08.280 --> 00:55:10.320
It's the traitor who Ian killed.

1236
00:55:10.440 --> 00:55:12.300
I've completely forgotten Reign of Terror.

1237
00:55:12.360 --> 00:55:14.699
Yes, remember, Barbara's quite taken with him, which is

1238
00:55:14.699 --> 00:55:15.239
understandable.

1239
00:55:15.300 --> 00:55:15.960
He's very handsome.

1240
00:55:16.079 --> 00:55:17.880
Oh, amazing, handsome.

1241
00:55:17.940 --> 00:55:18.539
Yep.

1242
00:55:18.599 --> 00:55:19.260
Colbert.

1243
00:55:19.320 --> 00:55:20.039
I remember that.

1244
00:55:20.099 --> 00:55:28.500
So, so, um, he is from another race, the war chief, than the war.

1245
00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:31.800
Yeah, so he's kind of in charge of it and it looks like he's

1246
00:55:31.800 --> 00:55:36.000
supplying the mysterious time capsules that disappear with Tartar

1247
00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:37.019
sounds.

1248
00:55:37.079 --> 00:55:39.239
And then it's quite early on.

1249
00:55:39.300 --> 00:55:42.539
Is it episode 3 that we hear him, his people refer to.

1250
00:55:42.599 --> 00:55:46.980
It is, we hear about warlord constantly and then there'll be a

1251
00:55:46.980 --> 00:55:47.760
little adjunct.

1252
00:55:47.820 --> 00:55:50.219
One of the characters with his back, I might be James Perry.

1253
00:55:50.280 --> 00:55:50.940
No, it's not.

1254
00:55:51.000 --> 00:55:53.460
One of the characters has his back to the camera when you 1st hear

1255
00:55:53.460 --> 00:55:54.059
the term.

1256
00:55:54.300 --> 00:55:55.980
Time law.

1257
00:55:56.039 --> 00:55:56.639
That's it.

1258
00:55:56.760 --> 00:55:58.679
But it means nothing to the audience.

1259
00:55:58.739 --> 00:56:00.960
I think, okay, says there are lords of war.

1260
00:56:01.019 --> 00:56:04.079
Yeah, there must be Lords of their time travel thing as well.

1261
00:56:04.139 --> 00:56:06.300
We hadn't actually heard the real nerdgasm here.

1262
00:56:06.360 --> 00:56:09.840
Hadn't heard the Tardis traditional takeoff or landing sound for

1263
00:56:09.840 --> 00:56:10.440
18 months.

1264
00:56:10.500 --> 00:56:13.260
Have you noticed he's had the handbrake off for the last 18

1265
00:56:13.260 --> 00:56:13.679
months?

1266
00:56:13.679 --> 00:56:14.760
He's been making woo woo?

1267
00:56:14.820 --> 00:56:16.019
Go back and have a listen.

1268
00:56:16.079 --> 00:56:16.920
Yeah, we don't hear it.

1269
00:56:16.980 --> 00:56:17.639
We haven't heard it.

1270
00:56:17.699 --> 00:56:19.739
We hadn't heard it for 18 months.

1271
00:56:20.699 --> 00:56:22.559
Yeah, we haven't.

1272
00:56:22.619 --> 00:56:23.519
Go back and have a listen.

1273
00:56:23.579 --> 00:56:26.460
It's really noticeable in crotons when it's all...

1274
00:56:26.519 --> 00:56:32.099
So we have so we have him and it's gradually revealed that he's

1275
00:56:32.099 --> 00:56:35.099
like a consultant to this whole experiment.

1276
00:56:35.099 --> 00:56:38.460
And then he and the security chief don't get on and they sort of

1277
00:56:38.460 --> 00:56:40.320
bicker and all of that sort of thing.

1278
00:56:40.320 --> 00:56:43.559
And he thinks that the security chief's competence. marriage mate

1279
00:56:43.559 --> 00:56:43.980
in him.

1280
00:56:44.039 --> 00:56:47.880
Yes, I think that something's stopped or arranged marriage never

1281
00:56:47.880 --> 00:56:48.360
worked out.

1282
00:56:48.420 --> 00:56:50.579
He doesn't buy bring her flowers anymore.

1283
00:56:51.059 --> 00:56:52.980
Put the garbage out.

1284
00:56:53.880 --> 00:56:58.079
And we learn that there's a warlord as well, who's one of the

1285
00:56:58.079 --> 00:57:02.699
security cheeks people, and who they both report to.

1286
00:57:02.760 --> 00:57:04.139
But we don't actually see him.

1287
00:57:04.199 --> 00:57:06.119
We hear that he's coming for a few episodes.

1288
00:57:07.019 --> 00:57:12.059
And so a lot of the central thing, a lot of the central part of

1289
00:57:12.059 --> 00:57:14.159
the story, sort of centres around those.

1290
00:57:14.159 --> 00:57:17.159
And we actually get the doctor and Zoe, you know, wandering

1291
00:57:17.159 --> 00:57:20.940
through that base and attending lectures there and helping out the

1292
00:57:20.940 --> 00:57:22.440
scientists with the conditioning machine.

1293
00:57:22.500 --> 00:57:25.139
And we get a whole, the wonderful Vernon Dopcheff.

1294
00:57:25.199 --> 00:57:26.519
Yes, he's terrific.

1295
00:57:26.579 --> 00:57:30.000
I think he's the one who actually mentions Time Lords for the 1st

1296
00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:30.300
time.

1297
00:57:30.360 --> 00:57:31.139
Am I right?

1298
00:57:31.199 --> 00:57:32.099
I think you might be wrong.

1299
00:57:32.159 --> 00:57:35.579
So, and that's that sort of throwaway line when they close to it

1300
00:57:35.579 --> 00:57:35.760
yeah.

1301
00:57:35.820 --> 00:57:41.099
And then, and then we do get a scene and it might be...

1302
00:57:42.000 --> 00:57:44.039
I can't remember whether it's episode 5 or so.

1303
00:57:44.099 --> 00:57:47.699
No, episode four. scene in episode 4 where the war chief and the

1304
00:57:47.699 --> 00:57:51.780
doctor see each other and the war chief clearly recognises the

1305
00:57:51.780 --> 00:57:53.699
doctor. a chilling moment.

1306
00:57:53.760 --> 00:57:58.320
It's unbelievable and it's really, it's absolutely coquettish.

1307
00:57:58.380 --> 00:58:00.119
He flirts with the god.

1308
00:58:00.179 --> 00:58:04.199
And he continues to do so for every single scene.

1309
00:58:04.260 --> 00:58:09.599
He circles around him and it's all raised eyebrows and mues and

1310
00:58:09.599 --> 00:58:12.000
honestly, he leaves James Carecross for dead.

1311
00:58:12.059 --> 00:58:14.039
It's really full.

1312
00:58:14.159 --> 00:58:16.079
I believe we were talking about this earlier.

1313
00:58:16.139 --> 00:58:19.800
I believe that the war chief was the war witch in a past story and

1314
00:58:19.800 --> 00:58:21.420
that he and Billy had a little fling.

1315
00:58:21.539 --> 00:58:24.659
Or at least had a little, yeah, well, he recognises the doctor

1316
00:58:24.659 --> 00:58:26.940
instantly, even though it's made clear they haven't seen each

1317
00:58:26.940 --> 00:58:29.760
other since the doctors left the homeworld.

1318
00:58:29.820 --> 00:58:30.840
Gallifrey's not being named.

1319
00:58:30.900 --> 00:58:31.440
Yeah.

1320
00:58:31.440 --> 00:58:33.179
Oh, no, no, absolutely.

1321
00:58:33.300 --> 00:58:35.400
That's so he reserves atocious.

1322
00:58:35.460 --> 00:58:37.920
I think he has an only very recently because he's kept some of the

1323
00:58:37.920 --> 00:58:38.820
accoutrements.

1324
00:58:38.880 --> 00:58:43.260
It's very rare in Mama Cass's outfit just taken in a bit of that

1325
00:58:43.260 --> 00:58:43.619
hair.

1326
00:58:43.679 --> 00:58:43.980
Come on.

1327
00:58:44.039 --> 00:58:47.639
So they actually speak properly in episode eight.

1328
00:58:47.699 --> 00:58:50.699
And by episode eight, the war, lords, arrives, and we'll talk

1329
00:58:50.699 --> 00:58:51.179
about that.

1330
00:58:51.239 --> 00:58:53.579
They have a sympathetic understanding between them two, don't

1331
00:58:53.579 --> 00:58:53.760
they?

1332
00:58:53.820 --> 00:58:56.940
They have a, and we get all of this stuff that we've never had

1333
00:58:56.940 --> 00:58:57.239
before.

1334
00:58:57.300 --> 00:59:00.239
So we know that the time lords are the doctor's people.

1335
00:59:00.599 --> 00:59:03.420
We know that they've left their home planet.

1336
00:59:03.480 --> 00:59:07.800
We're here for the 1st time that the doctor stole the TARDIS, but

1337
00:59:07.800 --> 00:59:11.219
the doctor won't tell us why he left in episode eight.

1338
00:59:11.280 --> 00:59:12.840
So we still don't know what the thing is.

1339
00:59:12.900 --> 00:59:17.699
But they're huge revelations and they actually change, you know

1340
00:59:17.699 --> 00:59:20.340
like I think they substantially change the premise of the show.

1341
00:59:20.820 --> 00:59:26.340
And you can get, you really, really get this sense and, and, you

1342
00:59:26.340 --> 00:59:31.019
know, presumably people watching knew that this was Pat Trouton's

1343
00:59:31.019 --> 00:59:31.440
last story.

1344
00:59:31.500 --> 00:59:33.659
It had been heavily publicised in the paper.

1345
00:59:33.719 --> 00:59:37.260
So, but you do get the sense that what's happening here is what

1346
00:59:37.260 --> 00:59:41.880
again, Philip Xander calls a narrative collapse, where the threat

1347
00:59:41.880 --> 00:59:47.460
is that Doctor Who will end as a TV program.

1348
00:59:47.519 --> 00:59:51.000
And that's a real threat to the audience because they tune in

1349
00:59:51.000 --> 00:59:52.679
because they like watching Doctor Who.

1350
00:59:52.739 --> 00:59:56.159
So it's the only threat that can actually affect you as a viewer.

1351
00:59:56.219 --> 01:00:00.719
And you really do get the sense slowly that the nature of the show

1352
01:00:00.719 --> 01:00:04.440
is changing around you, that the show is being dismantled.

1353
01:00:04.500 --> 01:00:07.019
And that will happen completely in episode 10.

1354
01:00:07.380 --> 01:00:10.619
I think when the show is finally dismantled and the doctor loses

1355
01:00:10.679 --> 01:00:13.320
in what is really striking.

1356
01:00:13.380 --> 01:00:14.880
We watched it just now, didn't we?

1357
01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:17.400
It's really sadly done.

1358
01:00:17.460 --> 01:00:21.539
It's not just the end of Patrick Charton character, but it's the

1359
01:00:21.539 --> 01:00:25.139
end of all of those hopes for the 60s of overthrowing. of what

1360
01:00:25.139 --> 01:00:27.059
we've seen already. of it's worked out.

1361
01:00:27.119 --> 01:00:28.860
And he's really destroyed.

1362
01:00:28.920 --> 01:00:33.000
He's one of the last lines he has is she won't really remember me

1363
01:00:33.000 --> 01:00:34.320
will she, about Zoe?

1364
01:00:34.320 --> 01:00:36.539
Everything's taken away from him.

1365
01:00:36.599 --> 01:00:39.719
And that's foreshadowed in the previous episode, and this is

1366
01:00:39.719 --> 01:00:42.300
something a lot of people have criticised about the story.

1367
01:00:42.360 --> 01:00:45.239
I think episode 5 is the last episode that Lady Jennifer

1368
01:00:45.239 --> 01:00:46.500
Buckingham appears.

1369
01:00:46.559 --> 01:00:47.219
Yes.

1370
01:00:47.219 --> 01:00:51.480
And of course, when the doctor is saying to everyone, look, my

1371
01:00:51.480 --> 01:00:52.920
people will get you home, but I have to go.

1372
01:00:52.980 --> 01:00:56.280
The only person he lets come with him is Carstairs because Kyasco

1373
01:00:56.280 --> 01:00:58.559
says I want to find Lady Jennifer and the doctor just sort of

1374
01:00:58.559 --> 01:01:02.159
sighs and says, oh, that's, you know, sighs to go, oh, of course

1375
01:01:02.159 --> 01:01:03.480
yes, please come.

1376
01:01:03.539 --> 01:01:06.000
And then casting sort of just fades away.

1377
01:01:06.059 --> 01:01:08.820
And I've spoken to people who say, oh, that's such a betrayal. such

1378
01:01:08.820 --> 01:01:10.199
a travesty. like, no, that's war.

1379
01:01:10.260 --> 01:01:14.460
That's war, you meet people and fleetingly, and then they're dead

1380
01:01:14.460 --> 01:01:15.840
or you never see them again.

1381
01:01:15.960 --> 01:01:20.639
They fade away and then they reappear together in a World War I

1382
01:01:20.639 --> 01:01:22.860
end. live happily ever after.

1383
01:01:22.920 --> 01:01:23.639
Maybe they do.

1384
01:01:23.699 --> 01:01:24.300
But that's the thing.

1385
01:01:24.360 --> 01:01:25.260
It's that uncertainty.

1386
01:01:25.320 --> 01:01:27.179
It's the same uncertainty the doctor faces.

1387
01:01:27.239 --> 01:01:28.980
Last time he sees Jamie.

1388
01:01:29.039 --> 01:01:32.579
Jamie is running after a red coat waving his sword about.

1389
01:01:32.639 --> 01:01:34.739
Jamie could be shot the very next second.

1390
01:01:34.800 --> 01:01:39.539
Is it the same red coat that he's locked up with in episode two?

1391
01:01:39.599 --> 01:01:41.219
I know you want it to be.

1392
01:01:41.340 --> 01:01:44.159
Yes, because I thought they were very sweet together.

1393
01:01:44.280 --> 01:01:45.719
I'm sure that they would settle down.

1394
01:01:45.780 --> 01:01:49.199
They would sort out their political differences and settle down

1395
01:01:49.199 --> 01:01:53.099
somewhere and have quite a happy life together, make lovely little

1396
01:01:53.099 --> 01:01:54.360
bannock burns together.

1397
01:01:54.659 --> 01:01:57.239
On a completely unrelated note.

1398
01:01:57.300 --> 01:01:59.699
I think we should share that lovely story we heard from Jeffrey

1399
01:01:59.699 --> 01:02:00.480
Beaver's last week.

1400
01:02:00.539 --> 01:02:01.739
Oh yes, please.

1401
01:02:01.800 --> 01:02:05.579
Jeffrey Beavers, who we're getting warehead of ourselves, played

1402
01:02:05.579 --> 01:02:11.099
the master in 1981's keeper of Trarkan, and was married to the

1403
01:02:11.099 --> 01:02:13.019
sadly late Carolyn John.

1404
01:02:13.139 --> 01:02:17.400
And someone asked him because he'd already spoken in his interview

1405
01:02:17.400 --> 01:02:20.880
about Carrie's passing and someone asked him about Carrie

1406
01:02:20.880 --> 01:02:21.539
recording.

1407
01:02:21.539 --> 01:02:25.500
And there's Beslayton's autobiography and, you know, how she must

1408
01:02:25.500 --> 01:02:29.519
have felt given that she knew that she wasn't wrong for this

1409
01:02:29.519 --> 01:02:29.820
world.

1410
01:02:29.880 --> 01:02:33.719
And Jeffrey Bigger said, I think it was the last or 2nd last thing

1411
01:02:33.719 --> 01:02:36.780
she did and she did it because she loved Liz so much.

1412
01:02:36.840 --> 01:02:40.440
But if that was the 2nd last thing she did, the last thing she did

1413
01:02:40.440 --> 01:02:43.679
was she recorded the gospels, and I produced those, because Carrie

1414
01:02:43.679 --> 01:02:47.400
was very religious, and I'm not religious at all, I'm a complete

1415
01:02:47.400 --> 01:02:50.820
atheist, but we made it work somehow for 40 years, are they?

1416
01:02:51.659 --> 01:02:53.639
You know, it's just...

1417
01:02:53.639 --> 01:02:57.719
There is a spirit of romanticism in Doctor Who, I think, is what

1418
01:02:57.719 --> 01:03:00.960
triggered me to think of that because we like to think that

1419
01:03:00.960 --> 01:03:03.059
Carstairs and Lady Jennifer ended up together.

1420
01:03:03.179 --> 01:03:05.579
I think that it is in the text. you know what I mean?

1421
01:03:05.639 --> 01:03:08.940
Like it is one of those just gentle, slowly developing love

1422
01:03:08.940 --> 01:03:11.880
stories like Leo and Tanya in Wheeling Space.

1423
01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:15.659
And there's one in, is there one in Fury?

1424
01:03:15.780 --> 01:03:16.920
No.

1425
01:03:16.980 --> 01:03:18.539
Well, there's already a couple in Fury.

1426
01:03:18.599 --> 01:03:19.559
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1427
01:03:19.619 --> 01:03:20.699
The Harris was in Fury.

1428
01:03:20.820 --> 01:03:21.179
Yeah.

1429
01:03:21.179 --> 01:03:24.960
So, you know, that sort of thing, which is kind of sweet, I

1430
01:03:24.960 --> 01:03:25.199
think.

1431
01:03:25.260 --> 01:03:27.420
And certainly, I think that's definitely there.

1432
01:03:27.480 --> 01:03:29.400
It's not just us reading into it.

1433
01:03:29.460 --> 01:03:33.840
It's just possible that I might be, you know, overinterpreting the

1434
01:03:33.840 --> 01:03:39.300
text when I suggest that red coat and and Jamie get together.

1435
01:03:39.360 --> 01:03:40.139
Exactly.

1436
01:03:40.139 --> 01:03:41.460
Do you think everyone was watching it?

1437
01:03:41.519 --> 01:03:42.420
I think it's in there.

1438
01:03:42.480 --> 01:03:43.380
Mac put it in there.

1439
01:03:43.500 --> 01:03:45.300
So the only scene shot in colour, wasn't it?

1440
01:03:45.360 --> 01:03:46.019
I remember.

1441
01:03:46.079 --> 01:03:49.079
Jamie Seidling up to him and saying the red really brings out your

1442
01:03:49.079 --> 01:03:49.500
arm?

1443
01:03:49.559 --> 01:03:51.420
Is that why he said eyes?

1444
01:03:51.480 --> 01:03:52.739
It was the accent.

1445
01:03:52.920 --> 01:03:54.900
So episode 10?

1446
01:03:55.019 --> 01:03:55.619
Episode 10.

1447
01:03:55.800 --> 01:03:58.559
Although 9 is pretty amazing, isn't it?

1448
01:03:58.619 --> 01:04:00.539
Because it is the doctor completely defeated.

1449
01:04:00.539 --> 01:04:06.179
And they have defeated the war thing and the war other guy and, you

1450
01:04:06.179 --> 01:04:10.679
know, everyone's like the security chief's been killed by the war

1451
01:04:10.679 --> 01:04:13.019
chief, which is sort of hilarious.

1452
01:04:13.139 --> 01:04:15.480
That's a hilarious death.

1453
01:04:15.539 --> 01:04:16.739
James Bre, God knows what he's doing.

1454
01:04:16.800 --> 01:04:18.179
B does wonderful death scene.

1455
01:04:18.239 --> 01:04:21.420
That's really surprising this did not feel like a slog.

1456
01:04:21.539 --> 01:04:23.219
No, no, no, that's it.

1457
01:04:23.280 --> 01:04:25.800
I think that there's enough things going on, that there's enough

1458
01:04:25.800 --> 01:04:26.639
plot development.

1459
01:04:26.699 --> 01:04:33.179
So I watched 9 episodes in a day because I'm crazy and I wanted to

1460
01:04:33.179 --> 01:04:35.039
get it done and I wasn't bored.

1461
01:04:35.099 --> 01:04:38.280
I didn't make the mistake of just sitting there motionless, you

1462
01:04:38.280 --> 01:04:42.719
know, growing bed sores on the couch while I watched them all.

1463
01:04:42.780 --> 01:04:43.679
Do you know what I mean?

1464
01:04:43.739 --> 01:04:46.260
I would get up and make myself a cup of tea and things between

1465
01:04:46.260 --> 01:04:46.920
episodes.

1466
01:04:46.980 --> 01:04:52.380
But, um, journey flipped to your brazen graven image of Lulla Ward

1467
01:04:52.380 --> 01:04:52.920
and the other one.

1468
01:04:52.980 --> 01:04:58.139
Well, yeah, I would do that, light a little candle and things, but

1469
01:04:58.139 --> 01:05:00.960
you know, like I didn't find it hard going and it is because

1470
01:05:00.960 --> 01:05:02.639
enough different things are going on.

1471
01:05:02.699 --> 01:05:10.019
And episode eight, you know, like, sorry, episode 9 is really a

1472
01:05:10.019 --> 01:05:11.400
sort of fantastic climax.

1473
01:05:11.460 --> 01:05:14.820
Everyone's been defeated, but what the doctor can't do is get

1474
01:05:14.820 --> 01:05:15.420
everyone home.

1475
01:05:15.480 --> 01:05:21.179
Yeah, so the Sidrats, side rats, side rats, side rats, bizarrely.

1476
01:05:21.239 --> 01:05:24.420
So those the special space capsule.

1477
01:05:24.480 --> 01:05:26.280
Are you being served changing cupboards?

1478
01:05:26.400 --> 01:05:27.780
They look exactly the same?

1479
01:05:27.840 --> 01:05:30.179
No, it's No, it's like what the goodies used to.

1480
01:05:30.239 --> 01:05:31.619
Yeah, that door.

1481
01:05:31.619 --> 01:05:33.300
Goodies changing all that comes out.

1482
01:05:33.360 --> 01:05:34.380
It's grain.

1483
01:05:34.380 --> 01:05:35.880
Because you can't eat mice.

1484
01:05:35.940 --> 01:05:40.980
So, you know, they can't get everyone home because the space

1485
01:05:40.980 --> 01:05:43.920
capsules are all running out of juice.

1486
01:05:44.219 --> 01:05:48.960
The doctor can't control the TARDIS and there's 1000s of people

1487
01:05:48.960 --> 01:05:52.440
you know, that are affected by this scheme and so he has to call

1488
01:05:52.440 --> 01:05:53.400
the time laws in.

1489
01:05:53.460 --> 01:05:56.159
Not to save the day, he's done that, but to help all of these

1490
01:05:56.159 --> 01:05:56.460
people.

1491
01:05:56.519 --> 01:05:58.199
Yeah, you can't delete them there.

1492
01:05:58.260 --> 01:06:00.239
No, he can't be camping himself.

1493
01:06:00.300 --> 01:06:03.239
And and their arrivals really terrible. terrifying.

1494
01:06:03.300 --> 01:06:04.079
Do you know what I mean?

1495
01:06:04.199 --> 01:06:07.440
There's this sort of howling, scary noise as if something's

1496
01:06:07.440 --> 01:06:13.019
descending. when the doctor, you know, they all run off in order

1497
01:06:13.019 --> 01:06:16.800
to escape them and Philip Maddock, whom we haven't talked about

1498
01:06:16.800 --> 01:06:17.099
yet.

1499
01:06:17.940 --> 01:06:19.739
That's just amazing.

1500
01:06:19.800 --> 01:06:23.519
Done. says that Philip Maddock says that, you know, the doctor

1501
01:06:23.519 --> 01:06:28.500
will wish that Arturo VR had killed him when the time lords get to

1502
01:06:28.500 --> 01:06:28.800
him.

1503
01:06:28.860 --> 01:06:31.559
So we made to be scared of the time lords and the doctor is scared

1504
01:06:31.559 --> 01:06:32.219
of them as well.

1505
01:06:32.280 --> 01:06:36.239
And we know that the doctor was exiled, right, from the very 1st

1506
01:06:36.239 --> 01:06:37.559
episode, don't we?

1507
01:06:37.619 --> 01:06:39.900
But we don't know what from or why.

1508
01:06:39.960 --> 01:06:44.280
And the idea that his people, that he's scared of his people and

1509
01:06:44.280 --> 01:06:47.579
that his people are, you know, incredibly terrifying and

1510
01:06:47.579 --> 01:06:48.059
powerful.

1511
01:06:48.119 --> 01:06:50.400
You know, I don't think that's anything that we would have

1512
01:06:50.400 --> 01:06:54.239
predicted, you know, not from the monk or from the doctor or

1513
01:06:54.239 --> 01:06:54.480
anything.

1514
01:06:54.539 --> 01:06:56.820
Other than that, he said, we can't return.

1515
01:06:56.880 --> 01:06:59.519
Yeah, we get back and it's not necessarily just the steering

1516
01:06:59.519 --> 01:07:00.780
column that's gone. wrong.

1517
01:07:00.840 --> 01:07:02.460
It's nicely done, though.

1518
01:07:02.519 --> 01:07:05.699
Brendan, you were saying, that threat, that ontological threat

1519
01:07:05.699 --> 01:07:07.139
that isn't diminished in this.

1520
01:07:07.199 --> 01:07:09.420
You were saying, you don't even get to see the capital.

1521
01:07:09.480 --> 01:07:12.539
This is all the trial is in the customs base.

1522
01:07:12.599 --> 01:07:13.679
Pretty much, is it?

1523
01:07:13.739 --> 01:07:14.159
Yeah, it is.

1524
01:07:14.219 --> 01:07:15.659
They hadn't even passed bag check.

1525
01:07:15.719 --> 01:07:18.659
It's 5 minutes away from where the TARDIS land.

1526
01:07:18.719 --> 01:07:20.820
Yeah, the TARDIS, the cradles are right.

1527
01:07:20.880 --> 01:07:21.840
So, no, no, no, no.

1528
01:07:21.900 --> 01:07:24.480
This is they're just the blokes at customs.

1529
01:07:24.539 --> 01:07:25.920
They're not even the really scary guys.

1530
01:07:25.980 --> 01:07:28.320
They're just the ones who wear the kitty uniforms.

1531
01:07:28.380 --> 01:07:29.820
We see the master.

1532
01:07:30.840 --> 01:07:33.059
So this final episode, we just said on Galafray.

1533
01:07:33.119 --> 01:07:35.940
So it's just like we see the master wearing the same frock that

1534
01:07:35.940 --> 01:07:37.980
they're wearing in...

1535
01:07:37.980 --> 01:07:40.019
And the master when the master looks into the untempered

1536
01:07:40.019 --> 01:07:41.880
schism...

1537
01:07:41.940 --> 01:07:44.820
He's wearing the same outfit that the time lords are wearing.

1538
01:07:44.880 --> 01:07:47.760
Yeah, so it seems to be something that only novitiates wear before

1539
01:07:47.760 --> 01:07:48.840
they get their big collars.

1540
01:07:48.900 --> 01:07:50.519
These guys are just customs officials.

1541
01:07:50.579 --> 01:07:51.960
They making how powerful the real ones are.

1542
01:07:52.019 --> 01:07:54.420
Before we move on to Gallifrey fully.

1543
01:07:54.480 --> 01:07:58.500
Next, something you were talking about is how this is starting to

1544
01:07:58.500 --> 01:08:01.559
take apart what Doctor Who is and deconstruct it.

1545
01:08:01.800 --> 01:08:07.619
That really starts even earlier in the story because towards the

1546
01:08:07.619 --> 01:08:11.340
end, we have based on the siege, but it's the humans laying siege

1547
01:08:11.340 --> 01:08:12.480
to the base of this type.

1548
01:08:12.539 --> 01:08:15.840
The humans are finally fighting back and they're not just sitting

1549
01:08:15.840 --> 01:08:16.260
there.

1550
01:08:16.319 --> 01:08:18.479
They're not they're mad as hell and they're not going to take it

1551
01:08:18.479 --> 01:08:18.840
anymore.

1552
01:08:19.319 --> 01:08:22.140
The last purge of what a revolution should be about.

1553
01:08:22.199 --> 01:08:22.979
Yeah.

1554
01:08:23.399 --> 01:08:27.239
But yeah, it's the failure of the revolution because they take

1555
01:08:27.239 --> 01:08:28.560
over the base, but like, what now?

1556
01:08:28.619 --> 01:08:29.760
We don't need this space.

1557
01:08:29.819 --> 01:08:31.199
We don't want this space.

1558
01:08:31.260 --> 01:08:33.479
We want to go home, but home don't home's not real.

1559
01:08:33.539 --> 01:08:35.100
Home is a construct.

1560
01:08:35.159 --> 01:08:39.659
It's this mind blowing inversion of last year's doctor.

1561
01:08:39.720 --> 01:08:42.180
But then as you do say that, then we end up on galafray.

1562
01:08:42.239 --> 01:08:44.520
This whole, let's not call it galafray.

1563
01:08:44.579 --> 01:08:45.899
Let's call it the doctor's home plan.

1564
01:08:45.960 --> 01:08:48.840
Yes, that's right So we end up on the we end up on the doctor's

1565
01:08:48.840 --> 01:08:53.640
home planet and we see, you know, it's it's fairly insubstantial

1566
01:08:53.640 --> 01:08:54.779
plot-wise, isn't it?

1567
01:08:54.840 --> 01:08:55.319
Yeah, really.

1568
01:08:55.380 --> 01:08:56.819
We're not eating the pth row, are we?

1569
01:08:56.880 --> 01:08:58.439
We're just...

1570
01:08:58.500 --> 01:09:00.300
Yeah, we're just outline.

1571
01:09:00.300 --> 01:09:01.380
Stats.

1572
01:09:02.460 --> 01:09:08.159
And so it is pretty thin as far as plot goes.

1573
01:09:08.220 --> 01:09:09.899
There's a little bit of peril, isn't there?

1574
01:09:09.960 --> 01:09:17.100
Like the warlord arrives and his guys with guns shoot a couple of

1575
01:09:17.100 --> 01:09:19.439
technicians who are dismantling the TARDIS and stuff.

1576
01:09:19.500 --> 01:09:22.800
And then, you know, then he's captured and put on trial.

1577
01:09:22.859 --> 01:09:25.380
And maybe this is the time to talk about how magnificent Philip

1578
01:09:25.380 --> 01:09:26.159
Maddock is.

1579
01:09:26.220 --> 01:09:29.039
Yes, yeah, because, you know, he's just static.

1580
01:09:29.100 --> 01:09:33.239
Philip Meddock's character in this, the warlord, he's always so

1581
01:09:33.239 --> 01:09:34.260
still.

1582
01:09:34.319 --> 01:09:39.359
You know, unlike Edward Brayshaw's war chief who wanders around

1583
01:09:39.359 --> 01:09:42.479
talking about we are masters of an entire galaxy.

1584
01:09:43.079 --> 01:09:46.439
Philip Maddock will walk into a scene with someone talking to him

1585
01:09:46.439 --> 01:09:47.819
and then stop and stare at them.

1586
01:09:47.880 --> 01:09:52.439
Oh, very well, you may proceed.

1587
01:09:52.500 --> 01:09:54.840
But there's no mannered response at all.

1588
01:09:54.899 --> 01:09:56.520
It's done totally straight.

1589
01:09:56.579 --> 01:09:57.479
Yes, absolutely.

1590
01:09:57.539 --> 01:10:01.199
It's the least actually part that we've seen all year.

1591
01:10:01.260 --> 01:10:04.560
Well, Maddock, I mean, Maddock was in the crotons, and I think

1592
01:10:04.560 --> 01:10:05.460
when we were talking...

1593
01:10:05.460 --> 01:10:06.239
Is that pretty straight, too?

1594
01:10:06.300 --> 01:10:10.439
Yeah, well, I think he has this ability to be terrifying while not

1595
01:10:10.439 --> 01:10:11.100
going big.

1596
01:10:11.159 --> 01:10:12.720
Be real.

1597
01:10:12.720 --> 01:10:16.500
Well, no, I still think it's a bit camp and a bit mannered.

1598
01:10:16.560 --> 01:10:17.880
But that's not a criticism.

1599
01:10:17.939 --> 01:10:18.600
Do you know what I mean?

1600
01:10:18.659 --> 01:10:22.319
Like it's presentational, you know, he's, he's, it's not a real

1601
01:10:22.319 --> 01:10:22.859
performance.

1602
01:10:22.920 --> 01:10:25.619
He's conveying to the audience, he's conveying to us that he's a

1603
01:10:25.619 --> 01:10:26.460
frightening person.

1604
01:10:26.520 --> 01:10:28.619
But he manages to do it.

1605
01:10:28.680 --> 01:10:32.760
Like he'll scream and shout and stuff when he needs to, but it's a

1606
01:10:32.760 --> 01:10:36.420
really contained and really still perform and it's really, really

1607
01:10:36.420 --> 01:10:37.319
menacing.

1608
01:10:37.380 --> 01:10:39.659
And he's terrific on trial.

1609
01:10:39.720 --> 01:10:44.460
Like he refuses to acknowledge the time lords authority over him.

1610
01:10:44.520 --> 01:10:47.460
You know, he won't respond to the questions until the time Lords

1611
01:10:47.460 --> 01:10:48.420
of the time.

1612
01:10:48.479 --> 01:10:49.020
Yeah.

1613
01:10:49.079 --> 01:10:50.399
It's exactly what Eichmann was doing.

1614
01:10:50.460 --> 01:10:51.479
And then the same lines.

1615
01:10:51.539 --> 01:10:53.880
I do not recognise the authority of this court.

1616
01:10:53.939 --> 01:10:54.899
Right, yeah, yep.

1617
01:10:54.899 --> 01:10:57.960
Yeah, that's interesting then that the element they bring in from

1618
01:10:57.960 --> 01:11:02.640
World War 2 is hammering home how evil this villain is and how

1619
01:11:02.640 --> 01:11:06.479
self-serving and how how he has such a lack of empathy.

1620
01:11:06.539 --> 01:11:07.979
Well, I mean, we've had.

1621
01:11:08.039 --> 01:11:10.199
We haven't been to World War 2 before.

1622
01:11:10.260 --> 01:11:11.640
No, but that's what I'm saying.

1623
01:11:11.699 --> 01:11:14.039
This is the one element of World War 2 that's thrown in and it's

1624
01:11:14.039 --> 01:11:16.319
thrown in to show how evil this person is.

1625
01:11:16.380 --> 01:11:20.039
Well, we've been we've been happy to use echos of Nazism to make

1626
01:11:20.039 --> 01:11:23.159
villains and aliens more evil.

1627
01:11:23.220 --> 01:11:27.000
That is that is something that show has taken from World War 2

1628
01:11:27.000 --> 01:11:30.420
even if it won't actually go to World War 2 until, you know, its

1629
01:11:30.420 --> 01:11:34.020
2nd last season, unless I'm probably the last season.

1630
01:11:34.079 --> 01:11:35.520
Last season, last season.

1631
01:11:35.579 --> 01:11:36.659
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1632
01:11:36.720 --> 01:11:39.239
Yeah, gosh. 25 years ago.

1633
01:11:40.500 --> 01:11:42.119
Feeling old.

1634
01:11:42.420 --> 01:11:44.880
And so we get that.

1635
01:11:44.939 --> 01:11:47.220
He's terrific and then he gets disintegrated.

1636
01:11:47.279 --> 01:11:48.899
He never existed or something.

1637
01:11:48.960 --> 01:11:50.520
It will be as if you would never existed.

1638
01:11:50.579 --> 01:11:53.819
And I'm sure I remember that from my reading of the target

1639
01:11:53.819 --> 01:11:54.479
novels.

1640
01:11:54.539 --> 01:11:55.800
Which is pretty good.

1641
01:11:55.859 --> 01:11:57.119
Yeah, it's thin.

1642
01:11:57.180 --> 01:12:00.539
Well, it's a very time lord. you know, their time lords, so they

1643
01:12:00.539 --> 01:12:02.220
can do timey things to...

1644
01:12:02.460 --> 01:12:05.579
They let you play out your own heart.

1645
01:12:05.640 --> 01:12:07.020
Did you notice they didn't step in?

1646
01:12:07.079 --> 01:12:11.880
They let the war, Lord, and his evil, gimpy suited, get smart

1647
01:12:11.880 --> 01:12:17.699
minions with welder glasses because that's how you dress as an

1648
01:12:17.699 --> 01:12:20.220
evil minion and do that little thing and even kill 2 of their own

1649
01:12:20.220 --> 01:12:20.460
people.

1650
01:12:20.520 --> 01:12:21.899
It's a bit surprising.

1651
01:12:21.960 --> 01:12:24.000
At the time, I know how missing it are there.

1652
01:12:24.119 --> 01:12:28.020
There's a nasty part that makes me think that they let the time

1653
01:12:28.020 --> 01:12:30.600
once have always, you know, they have prescience.

1654
01:12:30.600 --> 01:12:33.180
They would know, could see that this would be an eventuality.

1655
01:12:33.239 --> 01:12:37.020
Let them play it out to curse themselves. you know, let the

1656
01:12:37.020 --> 01:12:38.579
villain dig his own grave.

1657
01:12:38.640 --> 01:12:41.699
But they're not worried about any casualties in the meantime.

1658
01:12:41.760 --> 01:12:44.279
Well, they weren't lords where they were probably they were

1659
01:12:44.279 --> 01:12:45.779
customers officials. that's right.

1660
01:12:45.840 --> 01:12:50.279
And then we get, what we get is this sort of amazing thing in this

1661
01:12:50.279 --> 01:12:54.539
episode where it references an unprecedented number of previous

1662
01:12:54.539 --> 01:12:56.100
Patrick Troughton episodes.

1663
01:12:56.159 --> 01:13:00.659
So we see the footage from fury of the deep as the TARDIS lands in

1664
01:13:00.659 --> 01:13:01.199
the water.

1665
01:13:01.319 --> 01:13:07.859
We see the TARDIS in, uh, sort of enveloped by uh, uh, when the

1666
01:13:07.859 --> 01:13:09.300
doctor appears in his trial.

1667
01:13:09.359 --> 01:13:13.319
He mentions a whole heap of monsters and describes their, you know

1668
01:13:13.319 --> 01:13:18.539
main characteristics and things, starting absolutely inexplicably

1669
01:13:18.539 --> 01:13:19.319
with the quarks.

1670
01:13:19.380 --> 01:13:20.880
Yes, but, you know, yes.

1671
01:13:20.939 --> 01:13:22.380
And here's the Maya bistro, right?

1672
01:13:22.380 --> 01:13:23.039
That's Meridius.

1673
01:13:23.100 --> 01:13:24.479
Oh, wouldn't that have been correct?

1674
01:13:24.539 --> 01:13:25.319
The slither.

1675
01:13:25.380 --> 01:13:30.000
And he so he mentions we see little clips from all of his previous

1676
01:13:30.000 --> 01:13:33.600
adventures with these other monsters. newly filmed.

1677
01:13:33.659 --> 01:13:34.920
Were they mostly filmed?

1678
01:13:34.979 --> 01:13:36.060
newly filmed.

1679
01:13:36.119 --> 01:13:37.560
John Levine was 2 of them, I believe.

1680
01:13:37.619 --> 01:13:38.279
Wow.

1681
01:13:38.340 --> 01:13:39.060
I didn't know that.

1682
01:13:39.119 --> 01:13:40.199
The yeti, yeah.

1683
01:13:40.260 --> 01:13:40.560
Yeah.

1684
01:13:40.619 --> 01:13:48.000
So, this is, you know, in a way, uh, in a low-key way, uh, a sort

1685
01:13:48.000 --> 01:13:51.659
of unprecedented celebration of of what the show's been doing in

1686
01:13:51.659 --> 01:13:53.880
the past 3 years under Patrick.

1687
01:13:53.939 --> 01:13:58.319
And of course, when Zoe and Jamie leave, we get little specially

1688
01:13:58.319 --> 01:14:02.939
shot, bits from Wheeling, Space and Highlanders describing their

1689
01:14:02.939 --> 01:14:04.079
final date as well.

1690
01:14:04.140 --> 01:14:08.399
And so it is a huge celebration of the Trout and era, and we

1691
01:14:08.399 --> 01:14:10.979
haven't had anything like that.

1692
01:14:11.039 --> 01:14:12.000
No, no.

1693
01:14:12.060 --> 01:14:14.939
And certainly Hartnell didn't have one because Hartnell's

1694
01:14:14.939 --> 01:14:16.560
departure story wasn't really about his departure.

1695
01:14:16.619 --> 01:14:17.640
No.

1696
01:14:17.699 --> 01:14:20.699
And we were kind of trying not to bring it up too much.

1697
01:14:20.760 --> 01:14:24.960
In fact, it's afterpower of the Daleks, it's never mentioned that

1698
01:14:24.960 --> 01:14:28.920
the doctor changes his appearance until this story, and this story

1699
01:14:28.920 --> 01:14:31.260
it's clearly foreshadowing because he'll change his appearance at

1700
01:14:31.260 --> 01:14:35.699
the end, but do you remember the war chief says to the doctor, I

1701
01:14:35.699 --> 01:14:36.359
recognise you?

1702
01:14:36.420 --> 01:14:38.819
I know you've changed your appearance, but I still know who you

1703
01:14:38.819 --> 01:14:39.000
are.

1704
01:14:39.060 --> 01:14:40.140
Yeah, yeah, it's reminding me.

1705
01:14:40.199 --> 01:14:42.659
Yeah, so it reminds us, and that's what's going to happen at the

1706
01:14:42.659 --> 01:14:43.319
end of the story.

1707
01:14:43.380 --> 01:14:48.119
My favourite thing, though, I think, in that final episode is the

1708
01:14:48.119 --> 01:14:52.199
little mini adventure where Jamie Zoe in the Doctor Escape from

1709
01:14:52.199 --> 01:14:55.319
the Time Lords, for just a little moment across that very strange

1710
01:14:55.319 --> 01:14:59.220
set, and then they're recaptured almost instantly.

1711
01:14:59.279 --> 01:15:01.800
And the doctor knows from the very beginning they're not going to

1712
01:15:01.800 --> 01:15:05.279
get away because when Zoe says, oh, you know, we've got to at

1713
01:15:05.279 --> 01:15:08.399
least try and kind of turns away and sighs and rolls his eyes and

1714
01:15:08.399 --> 01:15:09.779
it's just like, no, I'll do this for them.

1715
01:15:09.840 --> 01:15:12.479
Yeah, you know, this is one last adventure for them.

1716
01:15:12.539 --> 01:15:16.079
It's tiny mini adventure and the most spectacular set with all

1717
01:15:16.079 --> 01:15:19.800
this dry ice and stepping stones and things like God knows what

1718
01:15:19.800 --> 01:15:23.579
function that serves on the planet gala on the doctor's home

1719
01:15:23.579 --> 01:15:24.000
planet.

1720
01:15:24.060 --> 01:15:24.539
Sorry.

1721
01:15:24.600 --> 01:15:26.399
I don't know what that room is.

1722
01:15:26.460 --> 01:15:28.380
But it is lovely, isn't it?

1723
01:15:28.439 --> 01:15:29.159
It's very sweet.

1724
01:15:29.220 --> 01:15:35.279
And I guess the departure of Jamie and Zoe, to people think.

1725
01:15:35.460 --> 01:15:39.899
I think it's very interesting that as soon as they're gone, that's

1726
01:15:39.899 --> 01:15:42.300
when the doctor says they won't remember me, he doesn't say it

1727
01:15:42.300 --> 01:15:45.359
before they leave because he doesn't want to upset them because

1728
01:15:45.359 --> 01:15:46.920
they won't know that they don't remember it.

1729
01:15:46.979 --> 01:15:51.840
But even that 30 seconds, that horrible realisation that you're

1730
01:15:51.840 --> 01:15:53.699
going to lose the most amazing time of your life.

1731
01:15:53.760 --> 01:15:56.760
The doctor kind of goes, no, it's better if they don't know.

1732
01:15:56.819 --> 01:16:01.319
And we get it years, years later with Donna when the doctor wipes

1733
01:16:01.319 --> 01:16:03.180
home every, she knows what's going to happen.

1734
01:16:03.180 --> 01:16:05.579
That's terrifying. you know, when she's screaming.

1735
01:16:05.640 --> 01:16:06.659
I burst into tears.

1736
01:16:06.720 --> 01:16:08.220
It's a mental rape.

1737
01:16:08.279 --> 01:16:12.119
I was really angry with Russell for riding it that way because it

1738
01:16:12.119 --> 01:16:13.859
felt like this is just...

1739
01:16:13.859 --> 01:16:15.659
Yeah, violating her.

1740
01:16:15.720 --> 01:16:16.560
Yeah, violation.

1741
01:16:16.619 --> 01:16:18.840
But, you know, he feminist and all the rest of it was.

1742
01:16:18.899 --> 01:16:21.720
You know, he the doctor knows this terrible thing is going to

1743
01:16:21.720 --> 01:16:22.800
happen to Jeremy and Zoe.

1744
01:16:22.859 --> 01:16:26.460
So he saves them the emotional horror of it.

1745
01:16:26.520 --> 01:16:30.060
It's still a horrible thing, but it's kind of like they mean so

1746
01:16:30.060 --> 01:16:32.939
much to him that he will carry the pain instead of them.

1747
01:16:33.060 --> 01:16:36.600
And I'm welling up now just thinking of it.

1748
01:16:36.659 --> 01:16:37.800
It's really awful ending.

1749
01:16:37.859 --> 01:16:42.239
That moment, it's that thing where it's the thing they reshoot in

1750
01:16:42.239 --> 01:16:44.699
wheeling space and they get Tanya back.

1751
01:16:44.819 --> 01:16:49.800
They can rebuild some of the set. and Zoe can kind of nearly

1752
01:16:49.800 --> 01:16:50.520
remember something.

1753
01:16:50.579 --> 01:16:54.779
And she looks back, but she looks back towards the camera.

1754
01:16:54.779 --> 01:16:57.779
It's directed in such a way that she's on the screen looking back

1755
01:16:57.779 --> 01:17:01.319
at the doctor who's in the courtroom just as it fades out.

1756
01:17:01.380 --> 01:17:05.039
And like we've been, we've talked about companion departures and

1757
01:17:05.039 --> 01:17:09.539
things and I think, you know, Barbara and Ian, obviously, like

1758
01:17:09.539 --> 01:17:12.720
anything to do with companions, you know, anything involving

1759
01:17:12.720 --> 01:17:13.260
Barbara.

1760
01:17:13.319 --> 01:17:14.220
She's the best companion.

1761
01:17:14.279 --> 01:17:15.600
They get the best departure ever.

1762
01:17:15.659 --> 01:17:20.039
But I've got to think that this is the 2nd best so far.

1763
01:17:20.100 --> 01:17:21.420
I'd agree with that.

1764
01:17:21.479 --> 01:17:23.699
I think I voted for another 2nd best previously.

1765
01:17:23.819 --> 01:17:24.539
What would that have been?

1766
01:17:24.600 --> 01:17:25.920
I think it would have been Victoria.

1767
01:17:25.979 --> 01:17:28.319
Because again, it's actually built up.

1768
01:17:28.380 --> 01:17:32.880
The producers of Patrick's era sort of start to realise that they

1769
01:17:32.880 --> 01:17:36.239
need to take more care with the companion departures because as

1770
01:17:36.239 --> 01:17:40.500
hurried as it is with Ben and Polly's departure, at least the

1771
01:17:40.500 --> 01:17:42.119
story is about their absence.

1772
01:17:42.180 --> 01:17:42.960
Yeah.

1773
01:17:42.960 --> 01:17:45.060
And they get home.

1774
01:17:45.119 --> 01:17:47.340
And yeah, it's a lovely scene because the doctor's actually quite

1775
01:17:47.340 --> 01:17:49.140
clipped and, well, here you are then.

1776
01:17:49.199 --> 01:17:49.979
You're home.

1777
01:17:50.039 --> 01:17:51.180
Are you going to leave?

1778
01:17:51.239 --> 01:17:52.619
Oh, okay, fine, you are.

1779
01:17:52.680 --> 01:17:54.659
They're sweet and Polly sweet.

1780
01:17:54.720 --> 01:17:55.560
I think it's a good scene.

1781
01:17:55.619 --> 01:17:57.180
Oh it's absolutely a good scene.

1782
01:17:57.720 --> 01:18:02.159
Yeah, actually, yeah, all the 2nd doctor's departures are quite

1783
01:18:02.159 --> 01:18:05.039
well written and especially quite well played by Patrick.

1784
01:18:05.100 --> 01:18:05.699
Yeah.

1785
01:18:05.699 --> 01:18:07.680
But this is heartbreaking.

1786
01:18:07.739 --> 01:18:08.039
I agree.

1787
01:18:08.159 --> 01:18:08.939
It is, sir.

1788
01:18:09.000 --> 01:18:11.640
And I think there's a, there's that reference to it at the

1789
01:18:11.640 --> 01:18:14.520
beginning of, in one of the pertween novels.

1790
01:18:14.579 --> 01:18:18.060
I just remember, you know, the doctor thinking about the faces of

1791
01:18:18.060 --> 01:18:21.779
Jamie and Zoe, as they said goodbye, you know, and that was one of

1792
01:18:21.779 --> 01:18:25.439
his sort of heartbreaking memories, and it's really, like, it's

1793
01:18:25.439 --> 01:18:26.520
really easy to believe.

1794
01:18:26.579 --> 01:18:31.979
I think it's, uh, uh, it is a great uh, departure, see in a

1795
01:18:31.979 --> 01:18:32.640
terribly sad moment.

1796
01:18:33.479 --> 01:18:37.079
So what about the dismantling of the show?

1797
01:18:37.140 --> 01:18:39.840
We see people dismantling the TARDIS?

1798
01:18:39.899 --> 01:18:41.939
We see the doctor unable to escape.

1799
01:18:42.000 --> 01:18:44.279
We see it now his adventures are over.

1800
01:18:44.340 --> 01:18:47.279
The humans are laying siege to the aliens.

1801
01:18:48.119 --> 01:18:51.479
Yeah, he's robbed of his face at the end.

1802
01:18:51.539 --> 01:18:54.960
He's headless there's...

1803
01:18:55.020 --> 01:18:55.619
Interesting.

1804
01:18:55.680 --> 01:18:56.939
I've really never noticed that before.

1805
01:18:57.000 --> 01:18:58.439
I must have seen this a bunch of...

1806
01:18:58.500 --> 01:19:01.500
You know, the production reason being pert we hadn't been cast

1807
01:19:01.500 --> 01:19:04.619
when they were filming this, but yeah, it's quite disturbing and

1808
01:19:04.619 --> 01:19:07.739
especially the Doctor Who has been very anarchic up until now.

1809
01:19:07.800 --> 01:19:11.279
His departure is, as he received, into the distance, just

1810
01:19:11.279 --> 01:19:15.899
screaming, no, over and over again. which we don't see into again

1811
01:19:15.899 --> 01:19:17.159
until...

1812
01:19:17.159 --> 01:19:18.420
Episode 4 of the next story.

1813
01:19:18.479 --> 01:19:20.100
Well, I was going to say...

1814
01:19:21.600 --> 01:19:25.680
I was going to I was going to say Silvan, Paul McGann, but or

1815
01:19:25.680 --> 01:19:28.020
really Eccleston every time he tries to smile.

1816
01:19:28.739 --> 01:19:30.899
But no, you're right.

1817
01:19:30.960 --> 01:19:36.359
It is all about the dismantling of the show, but it's because they

1818
01:19:36.359 --> 01:19:38.340
know that the show is going to be very different.

1819
01:19:38.819 --> 01:19:43.680
The show at this stage is on its last legs.

1820
01:19:43.739 --> 01:19:48.119
Season 5 of Doctor Who was averaging 8000000 viewers per week, this

1821
01:19:48.119 --> 01:19:52.380
season is down to less than 4000000 during the war games.

1822
01:19:52.380 --> 01:19:54.720
The writing's on the wall for Doctor Who.

1823
01:19:54.779 --> 01:19:58.739
And pretty much Derek Sherwin and Barry Letts were told they'll

1824
01:19:58.739 --> 01:20:01.020
have one more season because Sherwin knew that he wouldn't stay

1825
01:20:01.020 --> 01:20:01.979
for all of the next season.

1826
01:20:02.039 --> 01:20:04.859
So Barry Letz was already there in the background and they were

1827
01:20:04.859 --> 01:20:06.060
talking, look, you've got one more season.

1828
01:20:06.060 --> 01:20:10.979
And at the end of that season, what we want is we want an outline

1829
01:20:10.979 --> 01:20:14.159
for what you will do with the following season, i.e. season 8 of

1830
01:20:14.159 --> 01:20:16.739
Doctor Who, but we also want an outline of a new series because we

1831
01:20:16.739 --> 01:20:17.760
may just cancel Doctor Who.

1832
01:20:17.880 --> 01:20:21.539
That's why they were allowed to change the format as much as they

1833
01:20:21.539 --> 01:20:24.720
did for John Pertley, because the BBC were going, we're taking you

1834
01:20:24.720 --> 01:20:26.279
off the air anyway, do what you like.

1835
01:20:26.340 --> 01:20:27.119
Right.

1836
01:20:27.180 --> 01:20:33.180
And, um, This is where I'm going to talk about Season 5 versus

1837
01:20:33.180 --> 01:20:36.960
season 6 of Doctor Who, because many podcasts ago, I said that I

1838
01:20:36.960 --> 01:20:38.640
thought season 5 was more successful.

1839
01:20:38.699 --> 01:20:41.100
I'm going to clarify that now by saying I prefer season six.

1840
01:20:41.220 --> 01:20:43.920
But season 5 was more successful.

1841
01:20:43.920 --> 01:20:47.579
For the reason that Rich and I keep coming back to the

1842
01:20:47.579 --> 01:20:50.939
homogenisation of the series, A la the Avengers.

1843
01:20:51.000 --> 01:20:55.680
Now, just a few comparisons here, because season 5 and 6 of Doctor

1844
01:20:55.680 --> 01:20:58.380
Who, and season 5 and 6 of the Avengers were roughly

1845
01:20:58.380 --> 01:20:59.039
contemporaneous.

1846
01:20:59.100 --> 01:21:03.000
So season 5 of The Avengers, like season 5 of Doctor Who, was the

1847
01:21:03.000 --> 01:21:06.119
season that followed a formula for international sales.

1848
01:21:06.180 --> 01:21:08.520
Now, the Avengers had already sold internationally, Doctor Who was

1849
01:21:08.520 --> 01:21:09.960
trying but failed.

1850
01:21:10.020 --> 01:21:13.560
See, which episode, which season is season 5 of Avengers?

1851
01:21:13.619 --> 01:21:15.000
It's the colour M appeal season.

1852
01:21:15.060 --> 01:21:15.300
Okay.

1853
01:21:15.300 --> 01:21:20.159
So pretty much, especially about the 1st 16 episodes, probably the

1854
01:21:20.159 --> 01:21:23.520
formula of reclusive scientist slash politician is killed and

1855
01:21:23.520 --> 01:21:25.199
another one and another one and another one.

1856
01:21:25.260 --> 01:21:26.699
Ooh, big bass. lets have a fight.

1857
01:21:26.760 --> 01:21:28.920
Like the hidden tiger?

1858
01:21:28.979 --> 01:21:30.300
Like the hidden tiger.

1859
01:21:30.359 --> 01:21:30.720
Exactly.

1860
01:21:30.779 --> 01:21:32.399
People are the I know one.

1861
01:21:32.460 --> 01:21:34.439
In the hidden tiger.

1862
01:21:34.500 --> 01:21:37.020
People are being killed by insert menace in this case.

1863
01:21:37.079 --> 01:21:39.779
Cats controlled by insert base.

1864
01:21:39.840 --> 01:21:43.979
Yeah, control by insert celebrity Ronnie Barker.

1865
01:21:44.039 --> 01:21:47.880
Yeah, Ronnie Barker controls cats to kill politicians.

1866
01:21:47.939 --> 01:21:48.659
Was it Ronnie Barker?

1867
01:21:48.779 --> 01:21:49.739
It was Ronnie Barker.

1868
01:21:49.800 --> 01:21:50.520
I've forgotten that.

1869
01:21:50.520 --> 01:21:51.899
Perchway's in it though, isn't it?

1870
01:21:51.960 --> 01:21:53.399
Bert was in from Venus with Lob.

1871
01:21:54.479 --> 01:21:55.140
Which is really good.

1872
01:21:55.199 --> 01:21:57.899
Now, Doctor Who, in the same season, of course, is following.

1873
01:21:57.960 --> 01:21:59.159
It's based on the siege formula.

1874
01:21:59.220 --> 01:22:01.560
And as such was incredibly popular.

1875
01:22:01.619 --> 01:22:05.460
Season 6 of Doctor Who, they start doing more interesting and

1876
01:22:05.460 --> 01:22:06.539
varied things.

1877
01:22:06.779 --> 01:22:09.420
There's still the base under siege elements in there, but they're

1878
01:22:09.420 --> 01:22:10.439
going off to other planets.

1879
01:22:10.500 --> 01:22:13.560
The side men are invading Earth, where we're going into a land of

1880
01:22:13.560 --> 01:22:14.640
fiction, that kind of thing.

1881
01:22:14.699 --> 01:22:18.720
Season 6 of the Avengers, of course, Diana Rigg had left. replaced

1882
01:22:18.720 --> 01:22:22.439
by Linda Thawson, as in my opinion, the much maligned Tara King.

1883
01:22:22.500 --> 01:22:24.180
She was a Cardassian.

1884
01:22:24.300 --> 01:22:25.619
She was a card.

1885
01:22:25.680 --> 01:22:26.399
Not at the time.

1886
01:22:26.880 --> 01:22:30.479
She was a Cardassian in Star Trek, the Next Generation, the Chase

1887
01:22:30.840 --> 01:22:35.819
of her own line of underwear or Saint, and her father didn't

1888
01:22:35.819 --> 01:22:36.539
defend O.J.

1889
01:22:36.539 --> 01:22:37.020
Simpson.

1890
01:22:37.020 --> 01:22:43.380
But again, the Avengers... broke away from the formula that

1891
01:22:43.380 --> 01:22:45.539
established with Diana Rick and did some really great and

1892
01:22:45.539 --> 01:22:46.380
imaginative stories.

1893
01:22:46.439 --> 01:22:49.439
There are some terrible ones in there too, but they did some

1894
01:22:49.439 --> 01:22:52.859
really inventive things like all done with mirrors.

1895
01:22:52.920 --> 01:22:55.680
Pandora, who was that man I saw you with?

1896
01:22:55.739 --> 01:22:58.319
Take me to your leader, which is all about a talking briefcase

1897
01:22:58.319 --> 01:23:00.720
leading them to a criminal mastermind game.

1898
01:23:00.779 --> 01:23:03.060
Fame is my favourite all-time episode too.

1899
01:23:03.119 --> 01:23:06.359
Now, what happened with that is the ratings in the UK stayed the

1900
01:23:06.359 --> 01:23:06.600
same.

1901
01:23:06.659 --> 01:23:10.199
But because the formula had changed, in America, the ratings

1902
01:23:10.199 --> 01:23:13.500
plummeted, it was also up against Rowan and Marty's laughing.

1903
01:23:13.560 --> 01:23:18.119
Doctor Who, the ratings dropped because people had loved all these

1904
01:23:18.119 --> 01:23:21.239
monsters coming in and the doctor, Jamie, and Victoria standing in

1905
01:23:21.239 --> 01:23:22.979
a basement saying, aha, you shan't get in.

1906
01:23:23.039 --> 01:23:24.000
Oh, no, they're in.

1907
01:23:24.060 --> 01:23:25.680
Oh, Jamie, oh, the smoker, the home.

1908
01:23:25.739 --> 01:23:29.340
Um, Doctor Who season 6 tries to do something more inventive

1909
01:23:29.340 --> 01:23:33.180
people start switching off because I think partially because it

1910
01:23:33.180 --> 01:23:37.979
was multipart with the previous Doctor Who, with season five, you

1911
01:23:37.979 --> 01:23:40.439
could miss a couple and come in and you can still pick up the

1912
01:23:40.439 --> 01:23:40.859
story.

1913
01:23:40.920 --> 01:23:43.260
Whereas I don't think that was as easy in season six.

1914
01:23:43.319 --> 01:23:46.140
You don't think it might have just been the temperature and

1915
01:23:46.140 --> 01:23:47.939
thinking at the time, though.

1916
01:23:48.000 --> 01:23:50.039
Everything in the 60s was ending now.

1917
01:23:50.100 --> 01:23:52.859
It was a real point of we've seen it.

1918
01:23:52.920 --> 01:23:53.699
We've had enough.

1919
01:23:53.760 --> 01:23:57.659
The Avengers, Doctor Who, every single series we've talked about

1920
01:23:57.659 --> 01:23:58.380
even Bond.

1921
01:23:58.439 --> 01:24:00.840
Okay, that was doing well, but it had to reboot itself.

1922
01:24:00.899 --> 01:24:04.619
There's a point people were just seeing this is the end of an era

1923
01:24:04.619 --> 01:24:08.760
and looking for what's coming up next, there might have been that

1924
01:24:08.760 --> 01:24:12.420
whole declension of that zeitkeist of feeling that we failed.

1925
01:24:12.479 --> 01:24:14.039
Everything's that we've hoped before.

1926
01:24:14.100 --> 01:24:16.020
Okay, Apollo's going ahead and that's terrific.

1927
01:24:16.079 --> 01:24:18.899
I just think viewers are getting tired of the product and wanting

1928
01:24:18.899 --> 01:24:19.800
the next thing.

1929
01:24:19.859 --> 01:24:22.319
We're moving out of the home counties and we know we're moving out

1930
01:24:22.319 --> 01:24:23.579
into a bigger world.

1931
01:24:23.640 --> 01:24:25.020
Now, opportunities are there.

1932
01:24:25.079 --> 01:24:27.300
We've got technology, we've got space, we've got new ideas.

1933
01:24:27.359 --> 01:24:28.619
We're tired of the same thing.

1934
01:24:28.739 --> 01:24:31.380
I think just the audiences wanted a change of everything.

1935
01:24:31.439 --> 01:24:36.300
And I think the unfortunate thing there is if that's the case, the

1936
01:24:36.300 --> 01:24:38.039
audiences aren't actually looking at the program.

1937
01:24:38.100 --> 01:24:40.859
They're looking at what do they think the program is because of

1938
01:24:40.859 --> 01:24:42.300
the homogenisation the year before.

1939
01:24:42.359 --> 01:24:43.199
Yeah, yeah.

1940
01:24:43.260 --> 01:24:47.399
Yeah, but that's also, yes, the period itself was, we won't

1941
01:24:47.399 --> 01:24:47.579
change.

1942
01:24:47.640 --> 01:24:50.939
But what's interesting is the reason the Avengers was cancelled

1943
01:24:50.939 --> 01:24:54.119
was not because the Tyra King year was poor, it is popularly

1944
01:24:54.119 --> 01:24:54.539
considered.

1945
01:24:54.539 --> 01:24:56.399
Because I did really well in France, didn't it?

1946
01:24:56.399 --> 01:24:57.479
Did very well in France.

1947
01:24:57.539 --> 01:25:01.439
No, their international sales were at their peak at the time.

1948
01:25:01.500 --> 01:25:05.100
Some of the highest rated episodes of the Avengers, I think 2 or 3

1949
01:25:05.100 --> 01:25:08.699
out of the top 10 come from the Tariq King in the UK.

1950
01:25:08.760 --> 01:25:12.000
What killed it was because it went poorly in America, half the

1951
01:25:12.000 --> 01:25:12.899
money was coming from America.

1952
01:25:13.020 --> 01:25:14.399
They didn't order more.

1953
01:25:14.460 --> 01:25:18.180
So if Innas Lloyd had been successful in selling Doctor Who to

1954
01:25:18.180 --> 01:25:20.220
America, there probably would have been American production money

1955
01:25:20.220 --> 01:25:24.479
and it would have ended with Patrick Troughton because the last

1956
01:25:24.479 --> 01:25:25.560
year wouldn't have done well.

1957
01:25:25.619 --> 01:25:31.319
So when you when you say that season 5 is more successful in

1958
01:25:31.319 --> 01:25:35.640
season six, but fortunately not too successful, you know, otherwise

1959
01:25:35.640 --> 01:25:38.699
we would have had the death of the program, as you said, do you

1960
01:25:38.699 --> 01:25:40.800
like season 5 more than season six?

1961
01:25:40.859 --> 01:25:42.600
No, I like season 6 more.

1962
01:25:42.659 --> 01:25:46.380
But when I say successful, I'm talking about commercially and

1963
01:25:46.380 --> 01:25:47.520
critically successful.

1964
01:25:47.579 --> 01:25:51.840
It was more successful in what it did because it did the same

1965
01:25:51.840 --> 01:25:52.979
thing again and again and again.

1966
01:25:53.039 --> 01:25:58.020
Whereas season 6 does fall down and it does have its stumbles.

1967
01:25:58.079 --> 01:26:01.020
You know, it's got things like the dominators.

1968
01:26:01.079 --> 01:26:04.739
It's got the space pirates, but both of those at least attempted

1969
01:26:04.739 --> 01:26:05.340
to do something new.

1970
01:26:05.399 --> 01:26:06.060
Yeah.

1971
01:26:06.060 --> 01:26:08.579
The same as true of the Tara King New and the event.

1972
01:26:08.640 --> 01:26:09.960
In a different way, a really different way.

1973
01:26:10.020 --> 01:26:13.260
And same with Tara King, they were experimenting with new camera

1974
01:26:13.260 --> 01:26:14.039
techniques.

1975
01:26:14.100 --> 01:26:17.699
Yeah, it was, some of it was pretty much very, like, awesome

1976
01:26:17.699 --> 01:26:18.119
wills.

1977
01:26:18.180 --> 01:26:20.880
I'm thinking of those shots in game, with the close-ups and the

1978
01:26:20.880 --> 01:26:21.720
sets moving around.

1979
01:26:21.779 --> 01:26:24.479
It's very much experimental TV.

1980
01:26:24.539 --> 01:26:27.479
For those of you out there who are Avengers fans, and there's a

1981
01:26:27.479 --> 01:26:30.840
lot of people, because Channel 9 still constantly repeat the

1982
01:26:30.840 --> 01:26:31.199
colour.

1983
01:26:31.260 --> 01:26:33.420
They only show the colour rigs, don't they?

1984
01:26:33.479 --> 01:26:35.279
They don't show any Thorson or...

1985
01:26:35.279 --> 01:26:38.579
If you can track it down, Amazon UK, I think, still has the

1986
01:26:38.579 --> 01:26:42.239
complete series 6 of the Avengers, which is all the Tara King

1987
01:26:42.239 --> 01:26:46.859
episodes, including the handover from Diana Rigg, 2 end of course

1988
01:26:46.859 --> 01:26:50.279
and it's well worth getting because it is even better than you

1989
01:26:50.279 --> 01:26:52.979
remember, and I say that as someone who watched them 1st about 10

1990
01:26:52.979 --> 01:26:55.140
years ago and thought these aren't as bad as everyone says.

1991
01:26:55.199 --> 01:26:58.619
When I got them on DVD, I went, actually, most of these are really

1992
01:26:58.619 --> 01:27:01.979
good, and even when they're not, Linda Thorson, who was, I think

1993
01:27:01.979 --> 01:27:07.680
about 20, is just acting her socks off because unlike a lot of

1994
01:27:07.680 --> 01:27:12.359
other actors in other things at the time, she recognised what a

1995
01:27:12.359 --> 01:27:15.119
great opportunity this was pretty young actress, I'm not going to

1996
01:27:15.119 --> 01:27:16.500
say she was as good as Diana Rick.

1997
01:27:16.560 --> 01:27:16.979
She wasn't.

1998
01:27:17.039 --> 01:27:19.800
But Diana Rigg was a classically trained actress, whereas Linda

1999
01:27:19.800 --> 01:27:25.680
Thorson was a small town girl who'd moved from Canada to London

2000
01:27:25.680 --> 01:27:28.439
and suddenly landed the biggest job in the country.

2001
01:27:28.500 --> 01:27:31.380
Yeah, and she, aside from the Queen, obviously.

2002
01:27:31.920 --> 01:27:34.680
She definitely gets better as the season goes on.

2003
01:27:34.739 --> 01:27:36.720
Maybe that's time for an alternate podcast.

2004
01:27:36.960 --> 01:27:39.300
But yeah, to the bond cast.

2005
01:27:39.359 --> 01:27:41.579
I mean, really, this is the last chance we're going to have to

2006
01:27:41.579 --> 01:27:44.039
compare Doctor Who to the Avengers. interesting that they end the

2007
01:27:44.039 --> 01:27:47.220
60s in the same way and that what allow Doctor Who to keep on

2008
01:27:47.220 --> 01:27:52.739
going, arguably, was that it remained a British institution rather

2009
01:27:52.739 --> 01:27:54.239
than an international co-production.

2010
01:28:03.300 --> 01:28:07.079
We're almost at the end of the '60s, gentlemen, so it's time for

2011
01:28:07.079 --> 01:28:09.420
our last Jenny Laird awards of the '60s.

2012
01:28:09.479 --> 01:28:11.640
And my, you know what?

2013
01:28:11.699 --> 01:28:14.640
Because I do love season 6 so much, I had a hard time picking one

2014
01:28:14.640 --> 01:28:17.699
and because I knew I was going to be kicking the space pirates a

2015
01:28:17.699 --> 01:28:19.380
lot, I decided not to pick something from that.

2016
01:28:19.439 --> 01:28:24.600
So my Jenny Laird, award her most puzzling creative choice, goes

2017
01:28:24.600 --> 01:28:27.359
to the ice worry, who does a little dance when he gets out of the

2018
01:28:27.359 --> 01:28:30.600
team at cubicle on earth because he smashes through the thing.

2019
01:28:30.659 --> 01:28:33.779
And I think it's a directorial touch because what happens is some

2020
01:28:33.779 --> 01:28:34.800
soldiers run across.

2021
01:28:34.859 --> 01:28:37.140
So he smatches through, he steps out, he turns to the right.

2022
01:28:37.439 --> 01:28:40.439
And it cuts to the other camera looking at him there.

2023
01:28:40.500 --> 01:28:44.220
He turns back to the left to Commander Radna, who sort of flinches

2024
01:28:44.220 --> 01:28:47.220
for a 2nd and then he turns back to the right again, to the other

2025
01:28:47.220 --> 01:28:50.159
camera, and then back to Commander Radna, and then walks out.

2026
01:28:50.279 --> 01:28:52.920
And it's just, because, you know, you've got to keep moving in a

2027
01:28:52.920 --> 01:28:56.159
nice Warriors costume or you're going to crush certain things at

2028
01:28:56.159 --> 01:28:57.539
the top of your waiters, let's say.

2029
01:28:57.539 --> 01:29:00.779
It just comes off as this bizarre little dance.

2030
01:29:00.840 --> 01:29:02.039
And then he wanders off.

2031
01:29:02.100 --> 01:29:02.520
Yeah, yeah.

2032
01:29:02.579 --> 01:29:07.739
Watch it again when the ice warrior arrives on earth before he

2033
01:29:07.739 --> 01:29:09.300
goes to the weather control bureau.

2034
01:29:09.359 --> 01:29:11.579
So it's episode 4 or episode five.

2035
01:29:11.640 --> 01:29:13.199
I'm not sure exactly.

2036
01:29:13.260 --> 01:29:13.619
Watch them both.

2037
01:29:13.619 --> 01:29:15.060
Watch them both. fabulous.

2038
01:29:15.119 --> 01:29:18.840
But yeah, it's when he stumbles out and does a little dance.

2039
01:29:19.739 --> 01:29:23.939
It's just the way the world ends up with a bang, little whimper.

2040
01:29:24.000 --> 01:29:27.060
I was thinking of Tia Seliot's hollow men when you were talking

2041
01:29:27.060 --> 01:29:29.819
about how Doctor Who ends and how the Avengers ends and how the

2042
01:29:29.819 --> 01:29:33.659
60s ends and that's how I would say the same thing.

2043
01:29:33.720 --> 01:29:36.840
I don't think I have a journey laird award for any particular

2044
01:29:36.840 --> 01:29:40.079
player this season round.

2045
01:29:40.140 --> 01:29:44.220
I think people were trying very hard, but there was just forces

2046
01:29:44.220 --> 01:29:44.819
against them.

2047
01:29:44.880 --> 01:29:48.180
It's the end of an era and that doesn't always go well.

2048
01:29:48.239 --> 01:29:51.899
I think it's really good to see Patrick at the end of this do so

2049
01:29:51.899 --> 01:29:55.739
well and finally be given something to work with because he's just

2050
01:29:55.739 --> 01:29:57.300
been so, you know, neglected.

2051
01:29:57.359 --> 01:30:01.199
They really, they really wasted an opportunity with so much.

2052
01:30:01.260 --> 01:30:04.199
It's the pressure of production and the timing there.

2053
01:30:04.260 --> 01:30:08.819
I think my Jimmy Laird probably goes to the BBC in the way they

2054
01:30:08.819 --> 01:30:09.899
structured the production.

2055
01:30:09.960 --> 01:30:12.720
Not being able to give everyone there.

2056
01:30:12.779 --> 01:30:15.539
They were just so close to getting something amazingly good.

2057
01:30:15.600 --> 01:30:19.680
And we see, we've talked to the last 10,000 years, I think, about

2058
01:30:19.680 --> 01:30:23.819
how good the little moments, little brilliantine diamond moments

2059
01:30:23.819 --> 01:30:25.800
are in this, but we don't get a field.

2060
01:30:25.859 --> 01:30:27.840
You don't get a perfect field.

2061
01:30:27.899 --> 01:30:30.420
Maybe we get to feel the poppies at the end of this, but we don't

2062
01:30:30.420 --> 01:30:35.699
get anything that lasts longer than that because they're hamstrung

2063
01:30:35.699 --> 01:30:36.899
by so many other factors.

2064
01:30:36.960 --> 01:30:40.319
Maybe that's what good British production, like good Australian

2065
01:30:40.319 --> 01:30:42.720
films is working against such tight parameters.

2066
01:30:42.779 --> 01:30:46.800
You get great coal like, you know, under pressure, you get the

2067
01:30:46.800 --> 01:30:47.760
diamond in the coal.

2068
01:30:47.880 --> 01:30:50.340
So yeah, mine goes to the BBC.

2069
01:30:50.399 --> 01:30:55.500
Well, I was going to mention Fraser and Pat's increasingly pubic

2070
01:30:55.500 --> 01:30:59.340
side, but I kind of think like...

2071
01:30:59.399 --> 01:31:03.000
I think it'd be lowering the tone after Richard's one.

2072
01:31:03.060 --> 01:31:04.680
Can I just sit this one out?

2073
01:31:04.739 --> 01:31:08.819
No, no, I think we should definitely go back to Edward Brayshawson

2074
01:31:08.819 --> 01:31:12.000
whatever he's doing with his mum face.

2075
01:31:12.060 --> 01:31:13.260
This can shoot a verse.

2076
01:31:13.319 --> 01:31:14.340
Yeah, yeah, yes.

2077
01:31:14.399 --> 01:31:15.060
Oh, thank you.

2078
01:31:15.119 --> 01:31:16.079
That's it.

2079
01:31:16.140 --> 01:31:18.840
Edward, yeah, the war chief is can she reverse.

2080
01:31:18.899 --> 01:31:19.439
There's the title.

2081
01:31:19.979 --> 01:31:21.659
Yeah, anyway.

2082
01:31:21.720 --> 01:31:22.380
Okay.

2083
01:31:22.680 --> 01:31:25.500
So recommendations.

2084
01:31:25.560 --> 01:31:28.020
I'm actually going to recommend.

2085
01:31:28.199 --> 01:31:29.039
I often do this.

2086
01:31:29.100 --> 01:31:30.300
I'm going to recommend Big Fish.

2087
01:31:30.359 --> 01:31:34.380
And specifically, I'm going to recommend the Companion Chronicles

2088
01:31:34.380 --> 01:31:37.380
featuring Wendy Padbury, which detail what happens to Zoe after

2089
01:31:37.380 --> 01:31:37.920
she gets back.

2090
01:31:37.979 --> 01:31:42.180
And all I'm going to say for now is Zoe works for this company.

2091
01:31:42.239 --> 01:31:45.840
This company who runs the wheel and this company discovered that

2092
01:31:45.840 --> 01:31:48.060
she has time travelled and they're very, very interested in that

2093
01:31:48.060 --> 01:31:49.560
but of course, Zoe can't remember.

2094
01:31:49.680 --> 01:31:51.779
Does she have Ultron energy?

2095
01:31:51.840 --> 01:31:52.380
Is that how they know?

2096
01:31:52.500 --> 01:31:56.039
I can't quite remember exactly how they tell, but the scripts are

2097
01:31:56.039 --> 01:31:57.420
written in a very 60 style.

2098
01:31:57.479 --> 01:31:58.859
So things aren't nailed down.

2099
01:31:58.920 --> 01:32:03.060
And I think 2 of the big contributors to the range are John Dorney

2100
01:32:03.060 --> 01:32:08.340
and Johnny Morris, who, between them, houndeled a lot of the big

2101
01:32:08.340 --> 01:32:10.800
finish 60s lost stories.

2102
01:32:10.859 --> 01:32:14.399
So they really developed their voice for the 60s characters very

2103
01:32:14.399 --> 01:32:14.699
well.

2104
01:32:14.760 --> 01:32:18.840
And in a lot of these, because the companion chronicles have the

2105
01:32:18.840 --> 01:32:20.520
companion actor and one other.

2106
01:32:20.579 --> 01:32:26.640
In quite a few of them, the other person who is Zoe's interrogator

2107
01:32:26.640 --> 01:32:28.979
is actually played by her daughter Charlie Hayes.

2108
01:32:29.039 --> 01:32:30.359
Oh, lovely.

2109
01:32:30.420 --> 01:32:31.319
And then.

2110
01:32:31.380 --> 01:32:31.920
Yeah, yeah.

2111
01:32:31.979 --> 01:32:32.520
Oh, she's great.

2112
01:32:32.640 --> 01:32:35.579
And they have a very good relationship.

2113
01:32:35.640 --> 01:32:39.060
And the great thing is it's not really played on that it's a

2114
01:32:39.060 --> 01:32:40.140
mother-daughter relationship.

2115
01:32:40.199 --> 01:32:42.779
It's a bit like when we saw Diana Rigg and Rachel Sterling, even

2116
01:32:42.779 --> 01:32:45.779
though they were mother and daughter, it didn't have a bearing

2117
01:32:45.779 --> 01:32:49.800
from their real life. in the Crimson horror. in the Crimson

2118
01:32:49.800 --> 01:32:50.159
horror.

2119
01:32:50.220 --> 01:32:54.539
This is just 2 actresses playing really interesting parts.

2120
01:32:54.600 --> 01:32:58.800
And if I need if I was going to pick one, because to be honest, I

2121
01:32:58.800 --> 01:33:00.600
haven't heard the last one yet. savouring it.

2122
01:33:00.659 --> 01:33:02.340
I haven't heard 2nd chances yet.

2123
01:33:02.399 --> 01:33:05.220
If I was going to pick one, I would say the memory cheats.

2124
01:33:05.279 --> 01:33:06.539
Memory cheat.

2125
01:33:06.600 --> 01:33:08.220
The memory cheats it's called.

2126
01:33:08.279 --> 01:33:11.159
So it's not about her having been a coke call for the last 2 years

2127
01:33:11.159 --> 01:33:13.020
and it's my Chester wear all that one.

2128
01:33:13.079 --> 01:33:15.899
Oh, I hope dealers do the last podcast.

2129
01:33:15.960 --> 01:33:18.060
Otherwise, that is just cruel.

2130
01:33:18.359 --> 01:33:24.359
No, in this one, what happens is Zoe recalls a tale with the

2131
01:33:24.359 --> 01:33:28.680
doctor and it's about whether you should interfere or not.

2132
01:33:29.220 --> 01:33:30.659
So she does.

2133
01:33:30.720 --> 01:33:31.800
She does start to get more.

2134
01:33:31.859 --> 01:33:34.140
I want to hear them just to find out how they do that.

2135
01:33:34.199 --> 01:33:34.680
Yeah.

2136
01:33:34.739 --> 01:33:38.760
But what's interesting is memory is not only cheating in the story

2137
01:33:38.760 --> 01:33:39.720
she's relating.

2138
01:33:39.779 --> 01:33:42.600
Memory is cheating during the interrogation as well.

2139
01:33:42.659 --> 01:33:43.619
And that's all I'm gonna say.

2140
01:33:43.680 --> 01:33:46.560
Yeah, the story the story title works on 2 levels.

2141
01:33:46.619 --> 01:33:51.060
So Zoe's companion chronicles in general, the memory cheats in

2142
01:33:51.060 --> 01:33:52.439
particular is my recommendation.

2143
01:33:52.500 --> 01:33:57.600
And can I just remind you that if you're riding a bicycle while

2144
01:33:57.600 --> 01:33:59.939
you're listening to this or mountaineering or something?

2145
01:34:00.000 --> 01:34:01.079
What the hell are you doing?

2146
01:34:01.140 --> 01:34:01.800
I write a bunch of work.

2147
01:34:01.859 --> 01:34:02.699
Don't use your headphones.

2148
01:34:02.760 --> 01:34:03.600
I hate people like it.

2149
01:34:03.840 --> 01:34:07.079
And you can't write down these recommendations.

2150
01:34:07.140 --> 01:34:11.460
You can find them on our website or in your podcatcher of choice.

2151
01:34:11.520 --> 01:34:13.739
We'll put them in the show notes for it.

2152
01:34:13.800 --> 01:34:14.279
Yes that is true.

2153
01:34:14.340 --> 01:34:18.899
So my pick of the week is related to last weekend's Lords of Time

2154
01:34:18.899 --> 01:34:21.779
3, actually, which we all went and saw.

2155
01:34:21.840 --> 01:34:25.680
I saw like Matthew Warhouse was there and I'd never seen him

2156
01:34:25.680 --> 01:34:30.600
before, you know, in real life and he was interviewed by a friend

2157
01:34:30.600 --> 01:34:35.699
of the podcast, Todd, very expertly, I thought, and told some

2158
01:34:35.699 --> 01:34:36.960
stories that I'd never really heard.

2159
01:34:37.020 --> 01:34:38.640
And I was really, really impressed.

2160
01:34:38.699 --> 01:34:44.939
And he's recently published, like in the last year or so, he's

2161
01:34:44.939 --> 01:34:49.260
published his autobiography, and it's called Blue Box Boy, and

2162
01:34:49.260 --> 01:34:55.140
it's available as a book and as an e-book, and I think it's on

2163
01:34:55.140 --> 01:34:57.720
Audible as well, read by Matthew, which I think would be really

2164
01:34:57.720 --> 01:35:01.140
interesting, and I've run out of audible credits at the moment, but

2165
01:35:01.140 --> 01:35:02.880
as soon as I get when I will download it.

2166
01:35:02.939 --> 01:35:05.939
But I've been reading it, and I amount 3 quarters of the way

2167
01:35:05.939 --> 01:35:08.760
through, and it's really, really terrifically interesting.

2168
01:35:08.819 --> 01:35:10.680
And it's very well written.

2169
01:35:10.739 --> 01:35:11.640
It's very well told.

2170
01:35:11.699 --> 01:35:15.300
It's, um, uh, unusually it's told in the 3rd person.

2171
01:35:15.420 --> 01:35:17.399
So it's like Matthew did this.

2172
01:35:17.460 --> 01:35:21.420
And, you know, that sounds silly and I think I remember people

2173
01:35:21.420 --> 01:35:23.220
smirking when they 1st heard about it.

2174
01:35:23.279 --> 01:35:27.659
But it's a great alternative to having him, you know, go on like a

2175
01:35:27.659 --> 01:35:30.960
lovely about his career and say, oh, I did this starling and I met

2176
01:35:30.960 --> 01:35:33.600
John Woodmount and I met, you know, these people and all these

2177
01:35:33.600 --> 01:35:34.140
things happened.

2178
01:35:34.199 --> 01:35:38.159
And it gives him an ironic distance from the material and allows

2179
01:35:38.159 --> 01:35:39.539
him to mock himself a little bit.

2180
01:35:39.600 --> 01:35:44.340
And I had never really realised what a giant giant fan of this

2181
01:35:44.340 --> 01:35:47.460
program he was before he was on it.

2182
01:35:47.520 --> 01:35:50.699
And his account of that is terribly, terribly interesting.

2183
01:35:50.760 --> 01:35:53.880
So Blue Box Boy is my recommendation.

2184
01:35:53.939 --> 01:35:58.260
Oh, I've been enjoying my own summer of 69, and I should clarify

2185
01:35:58.260 --> 01:36:02.100
that, while we've been going through this by, which is what I do

2186
01:36:02.100 --> 01:36:04.560
in Christmas holidays, watch other things from our childhood.

2187
01:36:04.619 --> 01:36:07.979
So I just watched the 1st season of Cat Weasel again, which was

2188
01:36:07.979 --> 01:36:11.460
just filmed over the hill, um, with Jeffrey Balden.

2189
01:36:11.579 --> 01:36:13.140
Oh, it was filmed in 69.

2190
01:36:13.319 --> 01:36:17.100
So around the same time and the champions, which was sort of

2191
01:36:17.100 --> 01:36:19.800
between season 5 and season 6 of Doctor Who.

2192
01:36:19.920 --> 01:36:21.899
Dennis Spooner.

2193
01:36:21.960 --> 01:36:25.619
Well, we've got Jeffrey Balden and Kat Weasel and and who else?

2194
01:36:25.680 --> 01:36:29.159
Pretty much everyone we own. or Katie Jakes is in it, of course. in

2195
01:36:29.159 --> 01:36:30.180
one in a one off.

2196
01:36:30.239 --> 01:36:33.600
Just those lovely little microcosms of British loveliness of that

2197
01:36:33.600 --> 01:36:38.039
Indian summer that will that point of childhood that will never

2198
01:36:38.039 --> 01:36:41.159
come back, but held in that little crystal ball.

2199
01:36:41.220 --> 01:36:44.579
And I think we've got a sense of that in the last season of trout

2200
01:36:44.579 --> 01:36:47.100
and that this is a very special thing that will never be quite the

2201
01:36:47.100 --> 01:36:47.699
same again.

2202
01:36:47.760 --> 01:36:51.000
And definitely got the poignancy of that in the war games.

2203
01:36:51.060 --> 01:36:53.399
So I've been, yeah, my recommendations.

2204
01:36:53.460 --> 01:36:56.460
So go and have a look at Alexandra Bustedo in the Champions, which

2205
01:36:56.460 --> 01:37:01.140
is a Dennis Spooner masterclass in how to do home county spy drama

2206
01:37:01.140 --> 01:37:03.420
and make it all quaint and lovely, because they are still quaint

2207
01:37:03.420 --> 01:37:05.579
and lovely, even though it's meant to be big budget.

2208
01:37:05.640 --> 01:37:09.300
Um, and but really, 1st season cat weasel, which is out there and

2209
01:37:09.300 --> 01:37:10.319
bits of it are on YouTube.

2210
01:37:10.380 --> 01:37:11.100
It's just beautiful.

2211
01:37:11.159 --> 01:37:11.760
Lovely school.

2212
01:37:11.819 --> 01:37:13.680
I've just gone sideways.

2213
01:37:13.739 --> 01:37:17.159
And then you get a better feeling, really, of what this is by

2214
01:37:17.159 --> 01:37:18.659
seeing what else was around at the time.

2215
01:37:18.960 --> 01:37:23.220
And another interesting thing about Jeffrey Valden is, of course

2216
01:37:23.220 --> 01:37:26.699
he's played the 1st doctor for Big Finish, and also he had the

2217
01:37:26.699 --> 01:37:28.800
same, he's still around, and he had the same boyfriend for almost

2218
01:37:28.800 --> 01:37:29.279
40 years.

2219
01:37:29.399 --> 01:37:30.600
Yes, Alan Rowe.

2220
01:37:30.720 --> 01:37:32.880
Was Dr. Evans in the moon base?

2221
01:37:32.939 --> 01:37:33.779
He was.

2222
01:37:33.779 --> 01:37:38.340
And we'll go on to reappear in one John Pertley story and 2 Tom

2223
01:37:38.340 --> 01:37:39.060
Baker stories.

2224
01:37:39.119 --> 01:37:40.380
But yes, they were they were together.

2225
01:37:40.439 --> 01:37:43.140
Well, in the 60s and forward from there.

2226
01:37:43.199 --> 01:37:47.159
Alan is sadly no longer with us, but Jeffrey Balden is still

2227
01:37:47.159 --> 01:37:47.699
about.

2228
01:37:47.760 --> 01:37:48.180
Thank for that.

2229
01:37:48.239 --> 01:37:48.720
It's lovely.

2230
01:37:58.619 --> 01:38:02.100
We also have prizes to announce.

2231
01:38:02.159 --> 01:38:03.239
Yay.

2232
01:38:03.300 --> 01:38:06.479
We only had one winner for last season.

2233
01:38:06.600 --> 01:38:11.699
The Hand of Fear, who won a copy of The Abominable Snowman, and

2234
01:38:11.699 --> 01:38:14.579
didn't want to mention this at the time, but it is actually signed

2235
01:38:14.579 --> 01:38:16.619
by Darren Sticks, because...

2236
01:38:16.680 --> 01:38:20.159
So, yeah, you never know what you're going to get with us, although

2237
01:38:20.159 --> 01:38:22.380
probably not another Terence Dick's signature because he's back in

2238
01:38:22.380 --> 01:38:22.800
the UK.

2239
01:38:22.859 --> 01:38:25.739
But our current winners are, I've decided to pick four.

2240
01:38:26.039 --> 01:38:26.640
Oh good on you.

2241
01:38:26.699 --> 01:38:27.840
First one.

2242
01:38:27.899 --> 01:38:35.100
So our winners for this podcast are John Davies, president of the

2243
01:38:35.100 --> 01:38:37.619
Dock 2 Club of Victoria from 1981 to 1982.

2244
01:38:38.039 --> 01:38:40.680
Before you were born, before I was born.

2245
01:38:40.739 --> 01:38:42.180
Chris DeLuca.

2246
01:38:42.300 --> 01:38:49.500
Someone called Ash, and also we've decided longtime podcast

2247
01:38:49.500 --> 01:38:52.920
supporter there with us from the very beginning, Greg Miller.

2248
01:38:52.979 --> 01:38:55.140
So we'll be in touch with...

2249
01:38:55.199 --> 01:38:57.840
He is the most prolific commentator.

2250
01:38:57.899 --> 01:38:58.800
Yeah, absolutely.

2251
01:38:58.859 --> 01:39:03.000
So it seems only fair that he get a target novelisation of his

2252
01:39:03.000 --> 01:39:03.300
choice.

2253
01:39:03.359 --> 01:39:07.079
So, Perks, we're going to be sending you out a list of

2254
01:39:07.079 --> 01:39:11.039
novelisations you can choose from and we will post those to you in

2255
01:39:11.039 --> 01:39:11.699
the new year.

2256
01:39:11.760 --> 01:39:18.899
So we are about to go, but we have a very exciting new episode

2257
01:39:18.899 --> 01:39:20.039
coming up.

2258
01:39:20.819 --> 01:39:25.199
I've just confirmed with the aforementioned Todd Bilby.

2259
01:39:25.260 --> 01:39:29.880
Sir Todd Bilby, podcast listener and convention organiser and

2260
01:39:29.880 --> 01:39:31.319
interviewer extraordinaire.

2261
01:39:31.680 --> 01:39:36.659
We are going to have, very early on in the new year, a special

2262
01:39:36.659 --> 01:39:41.699
episode with us conducting a 60s retrospective about the last 6

2263
01:39:41.699 --> 01:39:42.779
years of Doctor Who.

2264
01:39:42.840 --> 01:39:44.880
Todd is actually going to interview us.

2265
01:39:44.939 --> 01:39:48.000
So we are not going to have any control over this gentleman.

2266
01:39:48.060 --> 01:39:49.439
I'll just talk over him.

2267
01:39:49.500 --> 01:39:50.880
That's what they want. always do.

2268
01:39:50.939 --> 01:39:53.039
So, Nathan, about the massacre.

2269
01:39:53.159 --> 01:39:55.619
Terrific. a piece of drama.

2270
01:39:55.680 --> 01:39:58.380
We have no idea whether this is going to work on op.

2271
01:39:58.439 --> 01:40:01.380
And after that, in the new year.

2272
01:40:01.439 --> 01:40:04.500
We are also moving to a fortnightly release schedule.

2273
01:40:04.680 --> 01:40:07.920
We'll still be releasing 2 episodes per month.

2274
01:40:07.979 --> 01:40:11.699
Each 2 episodes will cover a season of Doctor Who, and we may

2275
01:40:11.699 --> 01:40:15.239
occasionally throw in some special extras, like if we have an

2276
01:40:15.239 --> 01:40:18.479
extra sundae in a month or something we might just record, a

2277
01:40:18.479 --> 01:40:21.180
little something special about something related to Doctor Who.

2278
01:40:21.239 --> 01:40:21.479
Who knows?

2279
01:40:22.079 --> 01:40:24.420
That wasn't even intense.

2280
01:40:24.420 --> 01:40:25.260
Polygamy.

2281
01:40:25.380 --> 01:40:25.800
There you go.

2282
01:40:26.279 --> 01:40:28.439
He's never mentioned this to me.

2283
01:40:28.500 --> 01:40:29.939
I only know about Doctor Who.

2284
01:40:30.000 --> 01:40:30.720
What am I going to do?

2285
01:40:30.779 --> 01:40:35.640
So all that's left to say is great jumping gobstoppers, where at

2286
01:40:35.640 --> 01:40:36.779
the end of the 60s.

2287
01:40:36.899 --> 01:40:37.619
Wow.

2288
01:40:37.680 --> 01:40:40.979
We've done it where 19 episodes to the wind.

2289
01:40:41.579 --> 01:40:46.800
And we've covered every piece of televised televisual Doctor Who

2290
01:40:46.800 --> 01:40:47.399
in that time.

2291
01:40:47.460 --> 01:40:48.960
God, gentlemen, well done.

2292
01:40:49.020 --> 01:40:50.460
Couldn't have done it without you.

2293
01:40:50.520 --> 01:40:51.960
It was amazing, wasn't it?

2294
01:40:52.020 --> 01:40:54.239
And there was heaps of it that I'd never watched before.

2295
01:40:54.300 --> 01:40:57.420
So like I said, I'm now a Doctor Who expert.

2296
01:40:57.479 --> 01:41:01.140
I've watched more Doctor Who than anyone except Sue Perryman.

2297
01:41:01.199 --> 01:41:02.640
And Ian Levine.

2298
01:41:02.699 --> 01:41:03.899
Andy Levine, obviously.

2299
01:41:03.960 --> 01:41:06.720
It doesn't feel like it's been as long as it has been, but my

2300
01:41:06.720 --> 01:41:09.060
goodness, it's been a long time.

2301
01:41:09.899 --> 01:41:14.159
Well, look, it can't always, it can't always be Doctor Who season

2302
01:41:14.159 --> 01:41:17.760
3 podcast recording where we all almost quit.

2303
01:41:18.300 --> 01:41:22.260
And some people wish we had, dear listener.

2304
01:41:22.319 --> 01:41:26.100
But of course, thank you to all of you out there listening.

2305
01:41:26.100 --> 01:41:29.220
And, I mean, to those of you who know me personally, who come up

2306
01:41:29.220 --> 01:41:32.939
to me and complimented me on the show and complimented the 2 of

2307
01:41:32.939 --> 01:41:33.779
you on the show as well.

2308
01:41:33.840 --> 01:41:35.100
Thank you so much, just those of you.

2309
01:41:35.159 --> 01:41:36.119
So thank you.

2310
01:41:36.840 --> 01:41:40.680
For those of you commenting on the website, and the majority of

2311
01:41:40.680 --> 01:41:44.760
commentators on the website are people we haven't met. which is

2312
01:41:44.760 --> 01:41:45.359
fascinating.

2313
01:41:45.420 --> 01:41:46.319
So thank you very much.

2314
01:41:46.380 --> 01:41:47.340
Do tell your friends.

2315
01:41:47.399 --> 01:41:49.979
We're going to be moving into colour.

2316
01:41:50.039 --> 01:41:51.300
Yes.

2317
01:41:51.359 --> 01:41:54.300
Not many podcasts are recorded in colour, are they?

2318
01:41:54.359 --> 01:41:55.439
Yes, that's right.

2319
01:41:55.500 --> 01:41:59.640
And yeah, we may just be cosplaying for some both podcasts, quite

2320
01:41:59.640 --> 01:42:00.119
frankly.

2321
01:42:00.180 --> 01:42:03.479
But also keep an eye out for our website, which will be being

2322
01:42:03.479 --> 01:42:08.340
regenerated for next month as well to get with the times and step

2323
01:42:08.340 --> 01:42:09.600
into 1970.

2324
01:42:09.779 --> 01:42:12.119
Until then, thank you very much and good evening.

2325
01:42:12.239 --> 01:42:13.260
Good night.

2326
01:42:13.319 --> 01:42:13.859
Thank you.

2327
01:42:19.920 --> 01:42:22.020
You've been listening from Fletcher and Tarrakee with Nathan

2328
01:42:22.020 --> 01:42:24.060
Botany, Brandon Jones, and Richard Stone.

2329
01:42:24.119 --> 01:42:27.899
This episode, Hipster Clue, on Sunday, 21st of December.

2330
01:42:27.960 --> 01:42:30.300
The next episode will be released on January 4th.

2331
01:42:30.359 --> 01:42:32.699
You can buy us online, right to entirety.com.

2332
01:42:32.760 --> 01:42:36.000
Thank you entirely on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on

2333
01:42:36.000 --> 01:42:36.359
Twitter.

2334
01:42:36.479 --> 01:42:39.600
If you want to find out how relative time is, tri-sitting through

2335
01:42:39.600 --> 01:42:41.760
all 76 episodes of the space pirates.

2336
01:42:44.819 --> 01:42:51.239
Also, we do have 3 new target novelisations to go out to...

2337
01:42:51.300 --> 01:42:53.159
Insert name here.

2338
01:42:53.640 --> 01:42:57.539
And congratulations in certain name here.

2339
01:43:01.979 --> 01:43:05.760
If you could just say you're just ruining the illusion.

2340
01:43:06.239 --> 01:43:08.100
Actually, hold on.

2341
01:43:08.159 --> 01:43:10.560
We can look we can look at the bloody website.

2342
01:43:10.979 --> 01:43:13.140
Yes, I can do it properly.

2343
01:43:13.199 --> 01:43:15.659
I just didn't watch. to our podcast.

2344
01:43:15.720 --> 01:43:19.380
Oh, well, there's a lot of floppies.

2345
01:43:19.439 --> 01:43:20.159
One a bit.