WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:46:36

1
00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:47.100
Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that still hasn't recovered from being smashed in the face by that shipping container in Dubai.

2
00:00:47.159 --> 00:00:48.719
I'm Nathan.

3
00:00:48.840 --> 00:00:49.619
I'm James.

4
00:00:49.679 --> 00:00:50.520
I'm Todd.

5
00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:51.479
I'm Simon.

6
00:00:51.539 --> 00:01:05.340
Well, Doctor Who's 2009 series is looking extremely promising with a new companion, exciting guest stars, thrilling location work, and our 3rd ominous prophecy in as many years.

7
00:01:05.400 --> 00:01:11.519
Let's see how it all kicks off in the 1st episode of the new series, Planet of the Dead.

8
00:01:18.180 --> 00:01:26.519
So at one level, this really does kind of operate as the 1st episode of the new series, do we think?

9
00:01:26.579 --> 00:01:31.739
Yes, it would operate like that more so if Christina stayed at the end of it, though.

10
00:01:31.799 --> 00:01:33.659
Because that's what you feel it's leading to.

11
00:01:33.719 --> 00:01:34.739
Yeah, yeah.

12
00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:49.859
It does that thing that the previous season openers do, which is introduce a new companion with a reasonably light and kind of thin plot and sort of generally, you know, sort of a comedy tone, and then it kind of takes a turn at the end.

13
00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:53.459
But it's not quite the comedy tone that those other 2 are, in what sense?

14
00:01:53.519 --> 00:01:55.140
Well, it's much darker.

15
00:01:55.260 --> 00:02:13.500
It's much more gripping than, say, Smith and Jones is or partners in crime, which I'm not saying they're bad, but this is, I think this is deliberately setting out to be a chilling suspenseful story in ways that I think that those other ones aren't, don't you think?

16
00:02:15.659 --> 00:02:23.400
No, I think this has got this, they're trying to make a, the way I see this and maybe it's the HD thing.

17
00:02:23.460 --> 00:02:29.520
They're trying to make this spectacular. which they achieve with.

18
00:02:29.580 --> 00:02:30.419
No?

19
00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:32.460
I think it is spectacular.

20
00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:33.300
Yeah, yeah.

21
00:02:33.360 --> 00:02:34.439
I think they're making...

22
00:02:34.439 --> 00:02:35.039
But I think, yeah, yeah.

23
00:02:35.460 --> 00:02:44.039
I'm not sorry. saying it isn't spectacular, but this is being made to be a spectacle to be incredibly impressive visually to grab the audience.

24
00:02:44.099 --> 00:02:45.300
It's filming.

25
00:02:45.360 --> 00:02:58.080
Maybe that's linked to the fact that it's the 1st one that's in HD, but it's certainly the 1st one that is filmmic in this way, which you see a lot more of as you move through the Matt Smith era.

26
00:02:58.080 --> 00:03:04.439
And certainly, by the time you get to Capaldi, They really do start to feel like feature films the way they're made.

27
00:03:04.500 --> 00:03:04.800
No?

28
00:03:04.860 --> 00:03:06.180
Yeah, I think so.

29
00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:12.300
But I'm interested in following up the thing about whether it's dark and ominous.

30
00:03:12.360 --> 00:03:13.379
What do you think, Todd?

31
00:03:13.620 --> 00:03:15.900
Maybe at the end.

32
00:03:15.960 --> 00:03:23.159
I don't know if it's Dark Anonymous any more so than the previous 2 season openers necessarily have been.

33
00:03:23.219 --> 00:03:26.340
I mean, people still die, 100000000000 people.

34
00:03:26.400 --> 00:03:28.319
Well, I guess that is dark ominous.

35
00:03:28.379 --> 00:03:30.000
I guess that is dark.

36
00:03:30.060 --> 00:03:34.979
Like, you know, the fact that the sand is dead people and lots of them.

37
00:03:35.099 --> 00:03:39.539
But I don't necessarily feel like through most of it that it's suddenly ominous.

38
00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:44.159
I mean, unless you're talking about Carmen, who has the low-level cycle ability, make prophecies.

39
00:03:44.219 --> 00:03:46.680
No, I'm not saying that there is no lightness of touch.

40
00:03:46.740 --> 00:03:50.639
I am not saying that there's no humour in it, but you'd have to say that there's more darkness.

41
00:03:50.699 --> 00:03:53.699
There's more suspense, there's more chilling, there's more these things flying down.

42
00:03:53.699 --> 00:03:55.560
The oncoming storm sort of thing.

43
00:03:55.620 --> 00:03:55.800
Yeah.

44
00:03:55.860 --> 00:03:59.639
I'm not even talking about the Carmen prophecy prophecies either.

45
00:03:59.699 --> 00:04:18.480
I actually think, though, it is very clear early on that the only death is going to be the bus driver. and the reason for that, the absolute thing that tells you that that's the case, is that speech that David Tennant gives, or not a speech.

46
00:04:18.540 --> 00:04:22.439
The scene where David Tennant interrogates everyone about what they're going home to on the bus.

47
00:04:22.500 --> 00:04:43.079
So we're kind of leaping ahead, but there's what I think is a very rustly scene, and what I think is a great scene in some ways, although I have some reservations about it, where the doctor determines that no one else is going to die, and then he asks everyone what they're going home to, and they're going home to chops and gravy or to Tina.

48
00:04:43.139 --> 00:04:45.240
Lovely domestic, small scales.

49
00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:46.199
Yeah.

50
00:04:46.199 --> 00:04:47.519
Yeah.

51
00:04:47.579 --> 00:04:50.040
Yeah, like in Father's Day.

52
00:04:50.100 --> 00:04:51.240
Yes.

53
00:04:51.300 --> 00:04:53.220
In fact, he's exactly the same as Father's Day.

54
00:04:53.279 --> 00:04:54.779
Yeah, and I mean, he's sort of done it before.

55
00:04:54.839 --> 00:04:56.759
And Moffatt will take it up as well.

56
00:04:57.120 --> 00:05:03.060
And I think from that point on, we know that no one else is going to die that they're all going to be fine.

57
00:05:03.300 --> 00:05:04.920
Don't we?

58
00:05:04.980 --> 00:05:07.500
Oh, I'm not saying you don't.

59
00:05:07.560 --> 00:05:10.019
I mean, I don't, I suppose I don't watch it like that.

60
00:05:10.439 --> 00:05:17.459
They all got horribly killed because the bus got vaporised just before the doctor and Christina flee the scene or something.

61
00:05:17.519 --> 00:05:19.560
That would have been perfectly fine as well.

62
00:05:19.620 --> 00:05:21.899
But, I mean, that...

63
00:05:21.959 --> 00:05:22.740
Yeah, exactly.

64
00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:24.300
It's actually different treatment of the bus.

65
00:05:24.360 --> 00:05:28.319
Oh, but don't you think the bus travel is a bit better done compared to Delta and the Benamit?

66
00:05:28.379 --> 00:05:29.459
Only slightly better.

67
00:05:29.519 --> 00:05:38.399
But don't you think that the that sort of that celebration of the ordinary, which, as you said, they did in Father's Day in Moffatt, doesn't get, Moffatt doesn't, and it sort of is...

68
00:05:39.180 --> 00:05:41.279
I mean, it's all very nice, but do we really care?

69
00:05:41.339 --> 00:05:43.740
Does it sort of come across as a bit twee and forced?

70
00:05:43.740 --> 00:05:52.319
I think that Tennant doesn't pull it off at the end, and I think he is so patronising about it.

71
00:05:52.379 --> 00:06:01.199
But what it does do, there's a couple of times where Christina is a bit abashed, and we'll talk about Christina a bit more later, but she's kind of a little bit abashed by that.

72
00:06:01.259 --> 00:06:06.120
You know, she's taken control and she's being sort of the posh, aristocratic girl who's in charge.

73
00:06:06.180 --> 00:06:13.680
Do you think the reason why Tenant is not so great with this episode is because he'd forgotten how to do the accent?

74
00:06:13.740 --> 00:06:14.879
No.

75
00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:17.040
No, no.

76
00:06:17.100 --> 00:06:27.300
Like he actually, he had been in Hamlet for like 9 months before this and he came back on session and was like, I can't remember how to do the accent.

77
00:06:27.480 --> 00:06:29.100
It's funny.

78
00:06:29.160 --> 00:06:30.120
I didn't pick a difference.

79
00:06:30.180 --> 00:06:31.199
Did you pick a difference?

80
00:06:31.259 --> 00:06:32.160
interesting.

81
00:06:32.220 --> 00:06:38.220
It's a bit more, it's a bit more Dick Van Dyke. think.

82
00:06:38.279 --> 00:06:48.060
So, so he's, he's not, he's not, look, he's never that sort of naturalistic, and I just think that he doesn't sell the reaction to it.

83
00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:52.920
He's a little bit too kind of, you know, these little people who like chop.

84
00:06:53.279 --> 00:06:55.019
Do you know what I mean?

85
00:06:55.079 --> 00:06:55.920
Yeah, pets, yeah.

86
00:06:56.339 --> 00:07:02.879
But I think it's super effective because I think all of the other actors are incredibly great.

87
00:07:02.939 --> 00:07:10.079
And particularly the woman who plays Angela, who's crying at that and the doctors had to calm her down.

88
00:07:10.199 --> 00:07:14.759
And then she talks about like her daughter and her husband who she's going home to.

89
00:07:14.819 --> 00:07:18.000
And that's a really nice moment.

90
00:07:18.060 --> 00:07:25.560
I love the thing about Nathan who he's he's lost his job and he's just going home to watch telly because he hasn't got any money.

91
00:07:25.620 --> 00:07:26.519
That's fine.

92
00:07:26.579 --> 00:07:28.980
He'll end up on casualty.

93
00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:30.300
Yeah, does he?

94
00:07:30.300 --> 00:07:34.199
Well, and Daniel Kaluya, who will end up being an international film star.

95
00:07:34.259 --> 00:07:35.879
Eating your best actor. nomination.

96
00:07:35.939 --> 00:07:38.519
So, I was about to say, yes, yes.

97
00:07:38.579 --> 00:07:39.839
The other actors aren't quite good.

98
00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:42.180
And so I think that's good.

99
00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:44.160
And that is Russell's Doctor Who.

100
00:07:44.220 --> 00:07:48.720
And that is the people at home watching, you know, that.

101
00:07:48.779 --> 00:07:51.120
Yeah, but this is why I sort of question that motivation.

102
00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:55.379
And it's not just Russell, as you said, it's the entire, it comes up in modern Doctor Who.

103
00:07:55.439 --> 00:08:04.019
It's like, I don't watch Doctor Who to, to, to, aspire towards going home and having chops and gravy. you know what I mean?

104
00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:12.480
I mean, I know you want to be the ordinary person who's, you know, flung to the other side of the galaxy to Dubai to have this adventure.

105
00:08:12.540 --> 00:08:23.639
But I want them to kind of be exhilarated by that rather than completely petrified. that the show was being made for then, the show was being made for that family audience.

106
00:08:23.699 --> 00:08:25.500
It was being made for mainstream audience.

107
00:08:25.620 --> 00:08:27.480
It is a thing to do it.

108
00:08:27.540 --> 00:08:36.419
Like Doctor Who, and we're getting ahead of ourselves here, stopped being that accessible when it started being made for us again.

109
00:08:36.779 --> 00:08:41.519
Sometime in the early 2010s.

110
00:08:41.580 --> 00:08:43.980
And I love that era of the show.

111
00:08:44.039 --> 00:08:46.440
But it's no longer a family show.

112
00:08:46.500 --> 00:08:50.460
It's a sci-fi show that's being broadcast at 7 PM on a Saturday night.

113
00:08:50.519 --> 00:08:52.860
I'm not denying that it's a deliberate choice.

114
00:08:52.919 --> 00:08:57.899
I'm just saying that that's all very nice, but that's not my show.

115
00:08:57.960 --> 00:08:59.879
That's not the show that I grew up loving.

116
00:08:59.940 --> 00:09:01.740
That's that's the show.

117
00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:06.240
That's the show trying to be popular, which I know is ultimately designed.

118
00:09:06.299 --> 00:09:07.200
We all want to be popular.

119
00:09:07.320 --> 00:09:12.600
No, no, no, but just because well, no, but just because something's incredibly popular, it doesn't make it good.

120
00:09:12.659 --> 00:09:21.840
No, but I do think that what that enables is it enables a wider range of people to kind of access it.

121
00:09:21.899 --> 00:09:28.740
And I think part of what Doctor Who does in this era is reenchant the world that we find ourselves in.

122
00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:36.059
And so we end up living in a world that Doctor Who is sort of touched in a way.

123
00:09:36.120 --> 00:09:40.620
And so when you walk past the wheelie bins in the street, you don't touch the top of them.

124
00:09:40.679 --> 00:09:46.379
You know, well, it's like, it's like that part we quote about the yeti on the luan tooting bet.

125
00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:49.679
Yeah, it's taking normal and making it...

126
00:09:49.679 --> 00:09:52.559
But interesting, you talk about the wheelie bean and the yeti on the loo and tooting beck.

127
00:09:52.620 --> 00:09:58.259
One of the other boy, the one who's lost your job. whatever his name is, he is the one, I think he mentions.

128
00:09:58.379 --> 00:09:58.980
Oh, remember last?

129
00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:05.340
the planet's in the sky and all that sort of stuff because we're now in the universe of the Doctor Who universe where that all actually has happened.

130
00:10:05.399 --> 00:10:11.879
You don't get this reset where, oh, you know, don't you remember the Etis in the underground and the Loch Des monster?

131
00:10:11.940 --> 00:10:15.299
you know, where you live in this, because it does create a problem.

132
00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:22.620
It does create a problem where everyone remembers that these other things happen because it makes them, you should think more credulous.

133
00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:24.720
It should make them more credulous to what happens next.

134
00:10:24.779 --> 00:10:30.120
But we live in a world where we watch those things on telly, so they happened. you know what I mean?

135
00:10:30.179 --> 00:10:31.259
Like, so those things...

136
00:10:31.259 --> 00:10:32.580
No, I'm talking about the artistic choice.

137
00:10:32.639 --> 00:10:34.080
But that's what I'm saying.

138
00:10:34.139 --> 00:10:45.600
I'm saying that having Doctor Who set in a recognisable world with people from just normal TV shows on it makes it into something that then reenchants our world.

139
00:10:45.659 --> 00:10:58.679
And so every time we walk past Battersea Power Station or look at Big Ben, or walk past a Wheelie Bin, or see a council van sort of digging up the road, we think of things that have happened in Doctor Who.

140
00:10:58.740 --> 00:11:09.240
And so I think that what it does is enchant our world, and I think there is something of that in the per to era, but it's not quite the same thing.

141
00:11:09.299 --> 00:11:14.220
And one of the things that I love about this series, the domestic.

142
00:11:14.279 --> 00:11:20.460
And I do think that that scene may be a little bit, you know, maybe doesn't come off and maybe a bit over-agged.

143
00:11:20.519 --> 00:11:24.960
But I'm prepared to give it a pass because it's a sort of special.

144
00:11:25.860 --> 00:11:36.360
For me, the issue is not bringing it to domestic bringing it to the ordinary and making the ordinary because you're not making the chops and gravy into something nasty.

145
00:11:36.419 --> 00:11:40.019
You're just saying these people were going home to have chops and gravy or West Kelly, which is absolutely fine.

146
00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:48.539
I actually see it also as the fact that it's a primitive or clumsy attempt to try and give these people character in the bus.

147
00:11:48.600 --> 00:11:51.240
The people in the bus really don't have a lot of character.

148
00:11:51.360 --> 00:12:02.399
The character they do have is very one dimensional and it's one dimensional because of things like this, things like those conversations, making them think, oh, yes, we've given them a character now.

149
00:12:02.460 --> 00:12:04.080
He's unemployed.

150
00:12:04.139 --> 00:12:05.820
He's alone.

151
00:12:05.879 --> 00:12:08.639
He's this, she's missing his husband.

152
00:12:08.820 --> 00:12:09.840
But he isn't that in 3 days.

153
00:12:09.899 --> 00:12:11.700
But isn't that modern television?

154
00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:16.500
Like, isn't isn't that, isn't that like, you know, we've only got an hour to do this?

155
00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:18.419
talking about we've only got an hour to do this.

156
00:12:19.500 --> 00:12:22.080
It's not about how long the show is.

157
00:12:22.139 --> 00:12:23.879
It's how well it's written.

158
00:12:23.940 --> 00:12:38.759
But I think that is good writing to be able to, to give all that shit to those characters within the space of one scene so that we can then move on to the story and, and so, I just think that, that, that is good writing.

159
00:12:38.820 --> 00:12:42.360
And last year we had characters in a bus again, right?

160
00:12:42.419 --> 00:12:44.940
But they were trapped in that bus for a whole time.

161
00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:46.980
You had more time to be with them here.

162
00:12:47.039 --> 00:12:53.879
They're going outside of the bus and it's a necessity of the story because you've got other characters that you've got to deal with to get back to where you're going to.

163
00:12:53.940 --> 00:12:55.320
It's very economical.

164
00:12:55.379 --> 00:12:59.759
I also think that characterisation isn't what we're necessarily going for here.

165
00:13:00.659 --> 00:13:08.759
Because this is an action adventure thing and that there are character pieces in Doctor Who, but we don't get that every week.

166
00:13:08.759 --> 00:13:12.419
And sometimes we do get sort of subtle, complex characters.

167
00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:17.100
Sometimes we get the luxury of meeting a character and getting to know them over a series of years.

168
00:13:17.159 --> 00:13:23.460
But all we're doing here is sketching in enough of these people's lives so that we kind of care about.

169
00:13:24.659 --> 00:13:26.460
Because we don't have a lot of time.

170
00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:30.600
And I think that that actually does that.

171
00:13:30.659 --> 00:13:53.759
And I do think that that's what, that's what makes it a bit less anxiety-provoking for the people at home because I do think that someone clued into the kind of genre tropes will realise that once we know that about them in this era of Doctor Who, they're going to be fine, that Doctor Who isn't going to do that to us, you know, on a funny Easter special.

172
00:13:53.820 --> 00:14:01.200
But we've had a lot, we've had a lot last year of horrible things happen to people that we, we love like Donna, and this is not about that.

173
00:14:01.259 --> 00:14:09.360
This is, we've got to focus on Lady Christina and the doctor moving on from Donna and this is supposed to be a lighthearted adventure.

174
00:14:09.419 --> 00:14:18.419
Like, I'm okay with the fact that the characters are not necessarily going to be the most in-depth things and are light and are lightly sketched.

175
00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:21.299
I'm not saying that they're supposed to be in depth.

176
00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:24.960
I'm just saying that that was an attempt to tick a box.

177
00:14:25.019 --> 00:14:27.899
It's like...

178
00:14:27.899 --> 00:14:31.799
It's about the same as Mel being a computer programmer from Peace Pottage.

179
00:14:31.860 --> 00:14:33.659
That was the extent of Mel's character, really.

180
00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:36.539
And that's basically what these characters are.

181
00:14:36.659 --> 00:14:44.519
I'm not saying that, it's an observation more about, um, about the fact that they've put that in to make us try, to think that that will make us care about them.

182
00:14:44.580 --> 00:14:47.759
And what I'm saying is it does not make me care about them.

183
00:14:47.820 --> 00:14:49.200
Well, you're a monster.

184
00:14:49.259 --> 00:14:49.860
I am.

185
00:14:49.919 --> 00:14:51.480
I'm glad we've got that sort.

186
00:14:59.039 --> 00:15:06.539
I'd like to talk about Lady Christina and the performance of Michelle Ryan.

187
00:15:06.600 --> 00:15:07.980
Yeah, what do you think?

188
00:15:08.039 --> 00:15:09.840
I'm Invicuous.

189
00:15:09.899 --> 00:15:10.500
Yeah, okay.

190
00:15:10.559 --> 00:15:12.120
I absolutely adore her.

191
00:15:12.179 --> 00:15:15.000
I adore her in things that she's been in Bionic Woman.

192
00:15:15.059 --> 00:15:19.919
That's a terrible series, but she was great in that, and I really adore her in this.

193
00:15:19.980 --> 00:15:33.539
And the relationship with the doctor, at times, I think works really well, and other times perhaps it might seem a little bit off, but I think you're sort of comparing to what's gone before with Donna.

194
00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:42.000
And I really like it as we were talking previously, Nathan, and you were saying like this is like a season 5 opener.

195
00:15:42.059 --> 00:15:42.899
That never really was.

196
00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:46.019
And I never thought of it like that until you had mentioned that.

197
00:15:46.080 --> 00:16:04.679
And so, um, it's really interesting seeing her performance and where it goes throughout the episode and how she takes control and, but it also is also a bit like those 90s companions that we never really had where they're just this high concept where she's like, she's not lower middle, upper class.

198
00:16:04.740 --> 00:16:16.860
She's upper, upper class and that's a, and she's a thief and it's all very sort of sketchy and, and perhaps, would it really work if we had a whole series?

199
00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:25.679
I like to think that she's, she, you know, she's rebelling against her evil stepfather and stepsister, the nasmiths, who we're going to see later in the season.

200
00:16:26.700 --> 00:16:30.539
And no, I really enjoy her throughout this entire, Brooke.

201
00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:38.340
So she is loosely based on Rain Creevy, the companion that Cartmore wanted to replace Ace with.

202
00:16:38.460 --> 00:16:42.000
So there's a scene and all they say, isn't it?

203
00:16:42.059 --> 00:16:49.980
that she was trying to break into a safe and there was going to be the big action scene where she descends from the thing like we see in the cold open here.

204
00:16:50.039 --> 00:16:54.360
And then she opens the safe and Sylvester McCoy's inside saying what took you so long.

205
00:16:54.419 --> 00:16:55.620
What kept you?

206
00:16:55.679 --> 00:16:56.100
Yeah.

207
00:16:56.159 --> 00:16:57.960
And that was the entire country.

208
00:16:58.019 --> 00:16:59.460
And that would be that was the entire concept.

209
00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:00.779
That would have been a pre-credited sequence.

210
00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:01.740
Had they had them in those days?

211
00:17:01.799 --> 00:17:03.059
Yeah, ask Big Finish.

212
00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:03.960
Oh, right.

213
00:17:04.019 --> 00:17:04.680
Did they do that to them?

214
00:17:04.740 --> 00:17:07.019
But don't you love the pre-credit sequence with her?

215
00:17:07.140 --> 00:17:10.440
Yeah, absolutely. whole, like, especially impossible and it's stupid.

216
00:17:10.500 --> 00:17:13.019
What is that, that gold thing with the little hand?

217
00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:14.039
Raiders of the Lost Ark.

218
00:17:14.099 --> 00:17:17.099
Yeah. and Mission Impossible.

219
00:17:17.160 --> 00:17:22.619
We have one of those things in my house, the little cat that waves, and it makes a noise.

220
00:17:22.740 --> 00:17:27.900
And so it's ticking at the same at exactly the same rate as my heartbeats, actually.

221
00:17:28.019 --> 00:17:30.359
It's terrifying. the other way around.

222
00:17:30.420 --> 00:17:31.619
Yeah, it's good.

223
00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:32.880
Yeah, rageous the cat.

224
00:17:32.940 --> 00:17:35.460
But that is terrifically kind of fun.

225
00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:40.079
And her getting on the bus and not knowing what an oyster card is.

226
00:17:40.140 --> 00:17:44.700
I still call opal cards, lobster cards, actually, like that's still a thing from that.

227
00:17:45.059 --> 00:17:48.539
And I think all of that is terrifically wonderful.

228
00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:54.960
And it's the thing that you said, Tom, that this is a high concept companion of the kind that we haven't had since the 1980s.

229
00:17:55.019 --> 00:17:57.359
And so that's what we always had in the 1980s.

230
00:17:57.420 --> 00:17:58.319
It's Adrik.

231
00:17:58.380 --> 00:18:04.859
He's a mathematical genius, and he's from the planet Alzarius, and he heals very quickly, and he walks like a duck.

232
00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:05.519
That's right.

233
00:18:05.579 --> 00:18:14.640
And, you know, Nissa and all of those people are sort of high concept characters that, you know, Doctor Who, when it comes back to science, actually that doesn't work.

234
00:18:14.700 --> 00:18:18.839
What we really need is someone who is an identifiable kind of TV character.

235
00:18:18.900 --> 00:18:29.940
And, you know, Martha's allowed to be middle class because she's black and Don is allowed to be middle class because, you know, her whole family's kind of miserable in some way.

236
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:37.500
Well, I think she's allowed to be middle class because she's working at a job which her family thinks is beneath her or beneath a family.

237
00:18:37.559 --> 00:18:38.819
So that has a connection.

238
00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:41.819
Do you think she's a bit of a throwback to Romana?

239
00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:42.839
Yeah.

240
00:18:42.900 --> 00:18:43.319
Oh, yeah.

241
00:18:43.380 --> 00:18:46.079
And the lady thing... yeah.

242
00:18:46.140 --> 00:18:50.640
I was going to say, like, she reminds me, the performance is a bit Mary Tam-esque.

243
00:18:50.700 --> 00:18:53.039
Like, I think she's gorgeous.

244
00:18:53.099 --> 00:18:57.000
The performance is Mary Tamish, but don't you think the lines themselves are what Lala says?

245
00:18:57.059 --> 00:19:05.819
Like, it's just the band, there's a particular, there's a pace of the banter, and it's almost like David Tennant is, the inner fanboy of David Tennant is playing playing against Ramana.

246
00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:13.380
I'd be really interested to know how much of this script was written by Gareth Roberts in the 1st pass and how much was written by...

247
00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:17.279
I mean, you can tell the scene that we were talking before is just pure Russell, isn't it?

248
00:19:17.339 --> 00:19:22.319
And I think Russell does a passover the dialogue sort of generally, which is what he normally did.

249
00:19:22.380 --> 00:19:25.259
Do we know what the histories of this, why they're both credited?

250
00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:27.000
So there's basically this story?

251
00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:34.799
is inspired by, but not based on the highest science.

252
00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:37.920
Which has a train.

253
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:43.440
A tube train goes through a 40 and flicker, one of those terrible sort of...

254
00:19:43.500 --> 00:19:50.880
And they're known by their number, like they're terrible aliens and they're called number something or other, but it's the 518 to Clapham or something, you know, like I can't remember.

255
00:19:50.940 --> 00:20:04.380
So like that, that Russell loved that idea in that story of this tube train just going through a wormhole and ending up on an alien planet and went, but we'll turn it into a bus because it got fun.

256
00:20:04.380 --> 00:20:12.539
And, you know, we can have a bit where it flies around and, um, Oh, and originally it was supposed to feature the Chelonians as well.

257
00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:14.759
Instead of the Tritivors.

258
00:20:14.819 --> 00:20:24.420
Yeah, but they decided that maybe sticking someone in a giant turtle costume in the middle of a desert in Dubai would kill them.

259
00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:25.859
Oh, I thought they were, you mean they were worried?

260
00:20:25.980 --> 00:20:27.839
worried about how that would look at the end of the day.

261
00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:32.579
I'm thinking it's like the fake crawl in power of crawl.

262
00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:40.019
Well, can I say that I think that this also owes an enormous amount to the haunts of Nymon?

263
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:40.559
I agree.

264
00:20:40.619 --> 00:20:40.859
Yeah.

265
00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:41.640
Oh, of course it does.

266
00:20:41.700 --> 00:20:46.440
At the moment, those creatures had destroyed everything and we're going to go through the wormhole.

267
00:20:46.500 --> 00:20:48.839
I just thought...

268
00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:52.200
They even almost say something like the great journey of life or something like that.

269
00:20:52.259 --> 00:20:53.940
Well, the insect creatures did.

270
00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:56.039
No, the doctor calls something like that.

271
00:20:56.099 --> 00:20:58.619
Because of their lifecycle.

272
00:20:58.680 --> 00:21:09.119
Yeah. there is a sort of oblique reference and there were rumours in the press at the time of the press, the fan press at the time that the Naimon were coming back.

273
00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:13.079
Because the bits of the story had leaked out.

274
00:21:13.680 --> 00:21:15.660
Thank gosh, they didn't.

275
00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:29.160
Can I ask about you was touched on earlier about the fact that Christina sort of takes charge. when they when they worked out where they are, they need to do something and she says, we need to appoint a leader, right, off I go.

276
00:21:29.220 --> 00:21:34.559
Now, you kind of mentioned that you thought it was a, you know, trying to suggest she was an aristocrat.

277
00:21:34.980 --> 00:21:41.940
See, I read that as that they were just trying to flip the whole thing around because usually the doctor will just stand up and everyone will listen to the doctor.

278
00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:44.279
Whereas they're trying to say, well, they don't just have to listen to the man.

279
00:21:44.339 --> 00:21:45.180
No.

280
00:21:45.180 --> 00:21:47.220
But I think she does a great job of doing it.

281
00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:50.940
But I think that she assumes that she's in charge because she's posh.

282
00:21:51.059 --> 00:22:05.339
And the other thing that she does, which I think is marvellous, is she's the 1st person in the new series, to think that the doctor is a weird thing to call someone and keeps asking him what his last name is and all of that and makes fun of the fact that he's called the doctor.

283
00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:08.099
And that's something that, you know, Moffatt does later.

284
00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:09.660
But that happens for the 1st time here.

285
00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:13.259
And I do think it is, like, the lord and lady thing.

286
00:22:13.319 --> 00:22:24.240
Like the idea of an aristocratic cat burglar is so high concept and so different from anything that you get to see on EastEnders or indeed, you know, on any other sort of non-genre TV show.

287
00:22:24.299 --> 00:22:26.339
Depends on episode of EastEnders, surely.

288
00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:27.359
Well, maybe.

289
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:31.980
But she is a high concept character like him.

290
00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:36.480
They're both, you know, absolutely ostentatiously fictional characters.

291
00:22:36.539 --> 00:22:38.099
They're lords and ladies.

292
00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:41.819
When the doctor says Alonzy, she replies to him in French.

293
00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:43.500
That's brilliant.

294
00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:45.599
No one's ever done that before.

295
00:22:45.660 --> 00:22:48.359
And of course she knows French because she's terribly hosh.

296
00:22:48.420 --> 00:22:57.299
And I do think that the script really, really wants them to be a better match than any of the previous companions.

297
00:22:57.359 --> 00:22:59.700
They have to be kind of made for one another.

298
00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:02.579
And so there's all this talk about them being couples.

299
00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:08.579
You know, the doctor's the 1st one to say, we make a good couple and she says, we're not any sort of couple or something like that.

300
00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:22.079
And there is that sort of thing where it really, really desperately tries to match them up in a way that I'm not sure the 2 of them sell completely, but they sell it well enough, I think.

301
00:23:22.380 --> 00:23:24.480
But I do agree with you.

302
00:23:24.539 --> 00:23:26.700
I think they sell it pretty well.

303
00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:36.720
I don't think it's perfect, but I think if you'd had 4 or 5 adventures with them, then I think it would have been, yeah, they would have settled..

304
00:23:36.779 --> 00:23:39.599
I think it would have settled and you really, really would have found a groove.

305
00:23:39.660 --> 00:23:41.759
Like I would have really loved to have seen that.

306
00:23:41.819 --> 00:23:46.859
I mean, that is what in practice in the classic era happens to high concept characters.

307
00:23:46.920 --> 00:23:51.839
You know, you introduce a character with this sort of huge backstory and then guess what?

308
00:23:51.900 --> 00:23:54.839
It doesn't matter because it's all down to the actor's performance in any case.

309
00:23:54.900 --> 00:23:56.579
I mean, could Mary Tam.

310
00:23:56.640 --> 00:24:01.380
Yeah, you know, as great as Romano isn't her 1st story, by that 3rd story in.

311
00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:05.400
It's sort of like, you know, she's taken her year of sabbatical and it's all fine, you know?

312
00:24:05.460 --> 00:24:10.740
She's so magnificent It is, I don't think Christina and Tennant would have done this.

313
00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:21.599
And I think it would have worked really well for Tennant, but maybe it's because Donna was already doing this to Tennant, where Donna's job was to deflate Tennant and make him look ridiculous.

314
00:24:21.660 --> 00:24:30.779
And Mary Tam's job, I think, was to give the doctor someone to act like a naughty boy against.

315
00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:32.819
You know, she was more competent than him.

316
00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:35.400
And so the doctor got to be slightly rebellious.

317
00:24:35.460 --> 00:24:37.740
He didn't have to be the person in authority.

318
00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:42.299
He could be the naughty person who was slightly less competent.

319
00:24:42.299 --> 00:24:45.180
And that works really well for him.

320
00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:50.819
So I don't think it would ever have quite settled down to be like Mary and Tom.

321
00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:54.059
But I do think that she has a great deal of charm.

322
00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:11.339
So the other thing that's happening here, apart from being a 1st episode, is it is a special, and the 1st in a series of specials, where we're not going to have very much Doctor Who.

323
00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:23.279
How do we feel it functions as the 1st of what ends up being a sort of kind of disappointingly spare series of specials in a way?

324
00:25:23.339 --> 00:25:34.259
Oh, I'm always a bit apprehensive about using the word specials because in your head it sort of means that everything has to have some sort of unique element or elevate in some sort of way.

325
00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:41.039
And I don't necessarily think that this does it, you know, and we don't have enough of them.

326
00:25:41.099 --> 00:25:47.940
You know, it's literally 2 episodes and then the finale of Tenet, you really need 4 or five.

327
00:25:48.660 --> 00:25:54.299
Um, and some maybe through line a bit more than what potentially that there is.

328
00:25:54.359 --> 00:25:56.880
I think it looks spectacular.

329
00:25:56.940 --> 00:26:08.039
That's for certain, but, and I think that's one of the reasons why I never considered it to be one of the greatest things ever, because it wasn't one of the greatest things ever, like in terms of a special.

330
00:26:08.099 --> 00:26:12.000
But rewatching and I really like this a lot.

331
00:26:12.059 --> 00:26:13.140
I just enjoy it.

332
00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:21.119
Of this year, I think this is my favourite story. of the specials. of the 3 stories, essentially.

333
00:26:21.180 --> 00:26:32.519
Yeah, like, because it, it's fun and yes, it's dark, but it, in places, but it, it sort of whips along.

334
00:26:32.579 --> 00:26:34.680
There's there's some joy in there.

335
00:26:34.740 --> 00:26:37.500
Like the characters are obviously getting on with each other.

336
00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:46.500
The cast, although they're sparsely sort of drawn, are likeable and, and, you know, you feel for them.

337
00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:51.720
Whereas waters of Mars is just unrelentingly dark and end of time is a mess.

338
00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:52.380
Yeah.

339
00:26:52.380 --> 00:26:56.640
Well, of course, this is the 1st special that's not special, quite unquote.

340
00:26:56.700 --> 00:26:57.960
Which has nothing to do with Christmas.

341
00:26:58.019 --> 00:26:58.680
Yeah.

342
00:26:58.680 --> 00:27:00.299
I mean, Voyage of the Dam is quite dark.

343
00:27:00.359 --> 00:27:02.400
I mean, voice of dam is actually very dark, right?

344
00:27:02.460 --> 00:27:07.019
But this one is a sort of a, is an in between. like it's part special.

345
00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:13.200
It's got the festive elements like, you know, the cold open, you know, that's very festive and fun and everything.

346
00:27:13.259 --> 00:27:18.720
But then it's got this, well, it's not Christmas, so we're going to go into this after you get all the fun stuff.

347
00:27:18.779 --> 00:27:22.380
Then it gets into this very dark sort of, or much more suspensible.

348
00:27:22.440 --> 00:27:23.759
Dark is not quite the word.

349
00:27:23.819 --> 00:27:27.119
I don't want to use dark for me is what I'm not what I was trying to say before. suspenseful.

350
00:27:27.180 --> 00:27:28.200
Like, it's trying to be gripping.

351
00:27:28.259 --> 00:27:33.119
Really like, 0 my god, I can't breathe because, you know, almost got to happen. sort of thing.

352
00:27:33.180 --> 00:27:45.119
But I think one of the reasons why it is a bit of a disappointment, or at least the specials are a bit of a disappointment, is Nathan, what you were kind of suggesting, which is that we were, I sure we were promised more than...

353
00:27:45.180 --> 00:27:46.380
Yes, I've seen to remember that.

354
00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:48.119
Yeah, there were definitely at least one.

355
00:27:48.180 --> 00:27:53.819
It was supposed to be one at, you know, I mean, there's this and then like Waters of Mars is like November or something, isn't it?

356
00:27:53.880 --> 00:27:55.440
Yeah, Halloween, right?

357
00:27:55.500 --> 00:27:56.940
Well, okay, right.

358
00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:59.819
I'm sure there was supposed to be at least one other, if not 2 more.

359
00:27:59.880 --> 00:28:03.240
I would have loved to have seen 3 stories with Christina.

360
00:28:03.299 --> 00:28:11.279
That would have been nice to do 3 sort of things, beginning, middle, and end, and then go dark and conclude.

361
00:28:11.339 --> 00:28:12.480
And we don't get that.

362
00:28:12.539 --> 00:28:14.099
So I can see where you're coming from.

363
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:15.900
Is it your favourite of these specials?

364
00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:21.599
Favourite is such a difficult word when it comes to these specials, but yes, no, it's not.

365
00:28:21.660 --> 00:28:22.619
Waters of Mars would be.

366
00:28:22.680 --> 00:28:33.900
See, I'm recently watched one of us as Mars, and I think it's absolutely stunning, but it's absolutely relentless and awful in so many ways, whereas this was just so much joyous to watch.

367
00:28:33.900 --> 00:28:36.900
So there's there's 2 sides of the corner.

368
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:53.400
And I think that's why, you know, when you say, when we talk about the, the name special being problematic with these, to me, the word special fits this story more because it's an actual, it's a, it's more of a, it's a bit more celebrity.

369
00:28:53.460 --> 00:28:56.099
It might be an Easter, you know, it's not Christmas.

370
00:28:56.160 --> 00:29:01.500
There's not all that sort of, you know, like dressing around it, but it fits the bill to me more.

371
00:29:01.559 --> 00:29:04.619
I expect a special to be kind of fun and jolly.

372
00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:08.940
I don't expect it to be, everybody dies, and then you save a character.

373
00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:10.799
And then she kills herself.

374
00:29:10.859 --> 00:29:12.420
Spoiler alert.

375
00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:22.619
That's for another podcast I actually found the thing that struck me most when I was rewatching this last night is the amount of audience reaction on screen.

376
00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:37.980
The amount of times that the doctor is applauded or that some character is applauded for something, that there are surrogate audience members like a, like a laugh track in a sitcom.

377
00:29:38.039 --> 00:29:42.420
Because there is something sort of fun and celebratory about it.

378
00:29:42.539 --> 00:29:44.880
And I think that that's terribly fun.

379
00:29:44.940 --> 00:29:53.819
I think a flying bus comes through the wormhole and flies around and knocks a stingray in the arse and everyone's applauding and I think that's really actually quite fun.

380
00:29:53.880 --> 00:29:57.180
But it is celebratory because it's the 200th story or something, isn't it?

381
00:29:57.240 --> 00:29:58.680
That's the whole point of the 200 pounds.

382
00:29:58.740 --> 00:29:59.940
Depending on how you're counting.

383
00:30:00.900 --> 00:30:01.980
That's what I realised when watching it.

384
00:30:02.039 --> 00:30:07.380
So yes, the 200 is a reference to the fact that this is supposed to be Doctor Who's 200 story.

385
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:09.299
Depends how you count trial of a time Lord.

386
00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:11.099
And charter, I imagine.

387
00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:12.779
As always.

388
00:30:12.839 --> 00:30:14.039
Mission to the unknown.

389
00:30:14.099 --> 00:30:26.039
And as a transport nerd, and as somebody who lived in London for a while, what really got to me was that the number 200 bus does not go in anywhere near Victoria.

390
00:30:26.339 --> 00:30:28.319
Of course it doesn't.

391
00:30:28.859 --> 00:30:31.259
Halfway across the city.

392
00:30:31.319 --> 00:30:32.940
It goes through Wimbledon.

393
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:34.980
It's nowhere near Victoria.

394
00:30:35.039 --> 00:30:39.839
Well, there is in the cafe at Curabili with that view of the opera house that Peter Capaldi sees.

395
00:30:39.900 --> 00:30:42.359
We learn to live with this kind of thing.

396
00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:57.000
The other thing that we have, that is kind of an audience, identification thing, is that there's an explicit Doctor Who fan in the cast.

397
00:30:57.059 --> 00:31:02.579
Lee Evans playing Malcolm Taylor, who is an absolute Doctor Who fan.

398
00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:08.519
And this is something that, again, Moffat will bring back with Ingrid Oliver's character in unit.

399
00:31:08.579 --> 00:31:15.599
But we have someone who has read all of the files and there is that gorgeous moment where the doctor says, oh, what's your favourite?

400
00:31:15.660 --> 00:31:17.099
Is it the giant robots?

401
00:31:17.160 --> 00:31:18.480
Yes, brilliant.

402
00:31:18.539 --> 00:31:19.019
Yes, yes.

403
00:31:19.079 --> 00:31:26.579
And so I think that we, as the audience are sort of somehow present here or represented.

404
00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:38.339
Yeah, I mean, it is breaking the 4th wall, like, like, um, what's his face and greatest show in the galaxy, you know, um, I'm sure they're not as good as there used to be, but I'm still terribly interested, but, you know, there are lots of throwback.

405
00:31:38.460 --> 00:31:39.839
It is supposed to be a fan.

406
00:31:39.900 --> 00:31:41.279
It's supposed to be supposed to be one of us.

407
00:31:41.339 --> 00:31:49.740
I just think, though, that he's way too over the top goofy and in a way that Ingor Oliver isn't.

408
00:31:49.799 --> 00:31:52.980
There's a bit of fan fun there without it.

409
00:31:53.039 --> 00:31:59.579
I think I think this performance and the whole character is just, it takes it off the reservation for me.

410
00:31:59.640 --> 00:32:03.119
I think that he probably overplays it as well.

411
00:32:03.240 --> 00:32:07.980
And I think that's kind of excusable.

412
00:32:08.039 --> 00:32:10.259
Um, but there are bits of it.

413
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:11.339
And certainly the I love you.

414
00:32:11.400 --> 00:32:15.900
I love you, I love you thing, like perhaps crosses the line for me a little bit.

415
00:32:15.960 --> 00:32:23.460
Yeah, it's that that's over the top to do, whether it's the applauding, whether it's the brigadier substitute, having the same sort of reaction.

416
00:32:23.579 --> 00:32:24.839
They're so in awe of the doctor.

417
00:32:24.900 --> 00:32:27.900
And it's all lovely and it's a choice.

418
00:32:27.960 --> 00:32:32.339
I'm not saying this is wrong from a story point of view, because it's a choice of how are we going to do this?

419
00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:34.380
Doctor's been around for decades unit.

420
00:32:34.440 --> 00:32:37.140
Of course, the people at unit are going to know who he is, one would think.

421
00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:45.420
But I just find that it takes away the, the spontaneity, it all just feels like, oh, please give me a brag.

422
00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:46.440
It's just too much.

423
00:32:46.500 --> 00:32:49.079
It's very interesting because when I 1st watched it.

424
00:32:49.140 --> 00:32:57.000
All these people were online praising his performance and how wonderful it was and I could, I was just sitting there watching it going, this is so over the top.

425
00:32:57.059 --> 00:32:58.259
It is taking me out of it.

426
00:32:58.319 --> 00:32:59.279
It is just too much.

427
00:32:59.400 --> 00:33:00.660
I do not like it.

428
00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:08.220
Now, having watched it again, I can see why he's making these choices because the brigadier substitute.

429
00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:15.299
Can we not curl her the brigadier substitute when she is so incredibly great?

430
00:33:15.420 --> 00:33:17.579
She is just the brigadier.

431
00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:21.960
We're not going to call her the brigadier substitute.

432
00:33:22.019 --> 00:33:24.180
Captain Arissa Magambo.

433
00:33:24.299 --> 00:33:33.779
Orissa Magumbo is phenomenal, but she has to be the dark to his light in the scenes on earth because she's the one trying to stop the doctor coming through.

434
00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:37.319
And so he's got to be the ying to her yang.

435
00:33:37.380 --> 00:33:39.480
And so he, but I think he takes it too far.

436
00:33:39.539 --> 00:33:43.920
I still think he takes it too far, but I can see now having watched it again, where he's actually coming from.

437
00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:47.940
I think she's utterly phenomenal.

438
00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:51.420
After her performance last year.

439
00:33:51.480 --> 00:34:06.660
And to come back for this, it's almost like if we'd had the full series, we could have had unit with her, and it's such a shame moving forward that she does not appear again, and we decade Stuart, who, I'm sorry, is a bit of a wet fish at times for me.

440
00:34:06.779 --> 00:34:08.880
She's another one taking a sabbatical from acting.

441
00:34:08.940 --> 00:34:12.780
I would agree, but that's the story for another time.

442
00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:19.860
I think this captain is the best captain throughout the entire new series and it's such a shame that we never got to see more of her.

443
00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:29.159
And it would have been great to see unit this year with the doctor and Christina and a flying bus, get rid of Lee Evans, recast him with Ingrid Oliver, have the Nay Smiths in the background.

444
00:34:29.219 --> 00:34:31.500
I've got the whole series planned. finish.

445
00:34:31.559 --> 00:34:31.980
Call me now.

446
00:34:32.039 --> 00:34:35.820
But I totally agree with you, Simon, that I think his performance is too much.

447
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:39.300
So, should we do it now?

448
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:42.000
Magumbo, Magumbo, Magumbo, there.

449
00:34:42.059 --> 00:34:42.900
It's a big finish series.

450
00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:44.699
Oh, is that how it works?

451
00:34:44.760 --> 00:34:46.800
Oh, I say it 3 times quickly.

452
00:34:46.860 --> 00:34:47.519
Right.

453
00:34:47.519 --> 00:34:49.320
She, there's one moment.

454
00:34:49.380 --> 00:35:00.840
So she doesn't do much comedy and she is kind of the sort of serious character, but the moment where she's on the phone to the doctor and she salutes and he goes, did you salute?

455
00:35:00.900 --> 00:35:04.559
And she does such a fabulous comedy no.

456
00:35:04.619 --> 00:35:08.400
And it's a beautifully sort of sweet comedy reaction.

457
00:35:08.460 --> 00:35:14.340
And the other thing that I really like is she pulls the gun on Malcolm.

458
00:35:14.340 --> 00:35:20.039
And Malcolm actually openly disobeys an order from a commanding officer.

459
00:35:20.099 --> 00:35:27.599
And when the doctor wins anyway, She is back on his side.

460
00:35:27.659 --> 00:35:31.380
She realises that he made the right decision and her call was wrong.

461
00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:33.599
I have a slightly different take with that.

462
00:35:33.659 --> 00:35:37.260
I actually think that I love her reaction there.

463
00:35:37.320 --> 00:35:38.699
I think it's very brigadier-ish.

464
00:35:38.760 --> 00:35:47.039
And I kind of think that you really needed to have another character in between, like another general person above her, telling her and Malcolm what to do.

465
00:35:47.099 --> 00:35:55.980
I just think it would have rung more true because I kind of feel one moment she's just saying, no, shut it before he gets through and next moment she's smiling as if to say she's been on his side the whole time.

466
00:35:56.039 --> 00:36:02.340
And it's the one bit in the writing that I kind of get a little bit annoyed with the character through arc for her.

467
00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:05.159
Yeah, I can do you understand what I'm saying?

468
00:36:05.219 --> 00:36:06.659
I can see what you're saying.

469
00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:12.179
I think that's just an error in how it was not so much played, but how it was put together.

470
00:36:12.239 --> 00:36:16.500
Maybe the editing, maybe this, because, you know, there's the old commanding officer thing. you know, they are there.

471
00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:19.800
She has to make the hard choices and that means at the end of the day, she has to do it.

472
00:36:19.860 --> 00:36:24.179
But, I mean, the whole thing is obviously set up to be, you know, the demons, the other side of the heat barrier, right?

473
00:36:24.239 --> 00:36:26.159
I mean, the whole thing's often quite transparent like that.

474
00:36:26.460 --> 00:36:32.039
And that's why I think, I mean, it's all, it's great to kind of reference the past and everything like that.

475
00:36:32.099 --> 00:36:40.860
But I think that's where they then take that and they take the eccentricities of what the brigade is doing and saying in the demons and what Osgood is saying and doing in the demons.

476
00:36:40.920 --> 00:36:43.980
And everything's kind of magnified times 100 for this purpose.

477
00:36:44.039 --> 00:36:50.820
Yeah, but again, it's it's the sort of family special with, you know, an intended broad audience and stuff like that.

478
00:36:51.059 --> 00:36:56.579
So like I'm happy for it to be sort of magnified like that.

479
00:36:56.639 --> 00:37:04.980
And certainly, I think that she is absolutely spectacular in a completely different context to turn left.

480
00:37:05.099 --> 00:37:11.280
She works wonderfully in turn left, which is perhaps one of the bleakest Doctor Who episodes ever.

481
00:37:11.340 --> 00:37:15.659
And then she works in a really fun romp like this one.

482
00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:20.340
Well, just compare her to those 2 Gormless fools back in that Santaran 2-parter.

483
00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:24.960
Like, I mean, she's just so much better and I just wish that we had had more of her.

484
00:37:25.079 --> 00:37:28.199
No, I agree, I think I think it's an unfortunate.

485
00:37:28.260 --> 00:37:35.579
That's why I wish that this was part one of two, not because we see what happens to her next, but because I wanted to know more about what was going on during these moments.

486
00:37:35.639 --> 00:37:38.639
Except that that's the point.

487
00:37:38.699 --> 00:37:51.539
And I think the point of the end of this episode is that the doctor has been so hurt by what happened to Donna, which he's been reminded of in dialogue where Christina calls him Spaceman.

488
00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:57.900
He's been so hurt by what happened last year that he refuses to have a season of Doctor Who this year.

489
00:37:57.960 --> 00:38:01.199
And so there's an in story reason.

490
00:38:01.260 --> 00:38:12.840
There's a diagetic reason for not having a series 5 in 2009 is that the doctor refuses to take Christina on board and so we can't have a series.

491
00:38:12.900 --> 00:38:15.420
And I really, really like that.

492
00:38:15.480 --> 00:38:17.639
I think that's terribly cool.

493
00:38:17.699 --> 00:38:20.880
And the doctor seems horrible.

494
00:38:20.940 --> 00:38:22.920
I mean, you know, she's being arrested.

495
00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:25.739
She's there saying, I want to have fun.

496
00:38:25.800 --> 00:38:27.239
I want to do this all the time.

497
00:38:27.300 --> 00:38:33.719
I'm like you, we're perfect together, and we're denied that, and that kind of hurts, and it should.

498
00:38:33.780 --> 00:38:37.320
It's kind of like the telly movie with Grace not going with a doctor.

499
00:38:37.380 --> 00:38:38.340
You come with me.

500
00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:39.059
It's the same.

501
00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:46.260
There's not going to be a series of Doctor Who with Paul McGann because, well, because Grace Holloway decides she's not going to the doctor. her fault.

502
00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:47.159
It's her fault.

503
00:38:47.219 --> 00:38:47.760
Thank goodness.

504
00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:53.880
But, you know, Christina could never go with the doctor because she kisses the doctor and everybody claps.

505
00:38:54.119 --> 00:38:57.659
It's a kiss of death the moment you kiss the doctor straight up.

506
00:39:00.900 --> 00:39:13.019
When I was watching it the 1st time, I imagined there was a kind of almost a haze code kind of thing going on when she arrives, you know, she wants to go with the doctor.

507
00:39:13.079 --> 00:39:19.260
She was about to go with the doctor, but no, she can't do that because she's going to be arrested because she is after all a criminal, which we kind of forget because she's so lovely.

508
00:39:19.320 --> 00:39:22.679
And so she's therefore not allowed to travel with the doctor.

509
00:39:22.739 --> 00:39:25.500
But then, of course, he then... to being a criminal as well.

510
00:39:25.559 --> 00:39:27.059
Yes, and the whole thing's overturned anyway.

511
00:39:27.119 --> 00:39:28.559
He basically helps her escape.

512
00:39:28.619 --> 00:39:34.980
It's a lovely moment where you think, oh, the story's not going to let us have her travel because of that, because she's a criminal.

513
00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:38.579
But then she gets to escape on a bus and have a big finish series, so it's fine.

514
00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:40.860
It's, I think that is wonderful too.

515
00:39:40.920 --> 00:39:50.880
I am a little bit less convinced by the CG bus, and I don't think high definition does it very many favours, but let's be ambitious rather than cautious, I think.

516
00:39:50.940 --> 00:39:54.780
And I do think that that end is a perfect end.

517
00:39:54.840 --> 00:39:58.679
And there's a real wrongness to him refusing to take her on board.

518
00:39:58.739 --> 00:40:07.860
There's a real wrongness to him allowing her to get arrested and it's uncomfortable and then it's very quickly overturned and it should be.

519
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:12.480
So speaking of that ending, the DI in the story.

520
00:40:12.659 --> 00:40:24.300
D.I. McMillan, um, is played by Adam James, who is one of David Turn's oldest friends, and his godfather was John Pertwee.

521
00:40:24.360 --> 00:40:25.500
Oh there we go.

522
00:40:26.099 --> 00:40:28.019
Is this a small one?

523
00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:34.739
No, I was wondering, is it, is it because Tenant gets the lap of honour where he gets to have all these friends in, in the childhood part of thing?

524
00:40:34.800 --> 00:40:35.460
Possibly.

525
00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:38.099
But, yeah, no, I just...

526
00:40:38.099 --> 00:40:39.179
Which is not very sweet.

527
00:40:39.239 --> 00:40:39.780
I thought that was sweet.

528
00:40:39.840 --> 00:40:49.619
But going back to your point about the CG bus and everything, this story is really strapped full time.

529
00:40:49.619 --> 00:40:57.360
I think they decided very late in the day that they were going to film an HD and they didn't quite have the budget.

530
00:40:57.539 --> 00:41:01.199
And also they kept losing location days.

531
00:41:01.260 --> 00:41:06.119
So there was a sandstorm after they arrived in Dubai.

532
00:41:06.179 --> 00:41:08.460
So they lost a 3rd of the filming schedule.

533
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:15.059
And there was the stuff where the bus was destroyed in transit as well.

534
00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:18.780
So they lost time trying to deal with that as well.

535
00:41:18.840 --> 00:41:21.659
This story is just under the pump the entire time.

536
00:41:21.719 --> 00:41:29.159
I think it's ambitious, but it doesn't quite make it because the whole thing was made within a week of broadcast.

537
00:41:29.219 --> 00:41:31.800
Like they only...

538
00:41:31.860 --> 00:41:40.139
Yeah, like it was, and you know, that quite often happened in the new series, but not to the extent that it did with this one.

539
00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:46.380
I think all the filming in the sand looks fantastic, despite all of what you've just said.

540
00:41:46.500 --> 00:41:52.559
I think the ant aliens with their, and claw thing are a bit budget.

541
00:41:52.619 --> 00:42:01.320
But do you know what I love is actually, which is surprisingly unpretentious is when the doctor talks to them in the insect language.

542
00:42:01.380 --> 00:42:05.400
And I thought, well, actually, that was really well done and he didn't look like a Pratt doing it.

543
00:42:05.460 --> 00:42:06.239
Do you know what I mean?

544
00:42:06.300 --> 00:42:11.039
Because usually when they do that, like, you know, the eyebrows and spearhead from space, it looks a bit dicky.

545
00:42:11.099 --> 00:42:13.559
Whereas this is looks actually really good.

546
00:42:13.619 --> 00:42:22.079
Well, I think it's clearly written with David Tendon in mind given his triumph with the Jadoon language, you know, at the end of the last season.

547
00:42:22.199 --> 00:42:26.760
I think they get him to do things that are verbal because he's, you know, incredibly skilled at that.

548
00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:41.639
And I kind of think it's quite a good way of having sort of 2 characters that you don't, I don't know, you can just get Paul Casey and Rari Mears in, and you don't have to cast any actors and, you know, just have them wear rubber heads and sort of gesticulate and stuff.

549
00:42:41.699 --> 00:42:50.940
And they can get, they can get killed off and eaten in it very quickly. very quickly and I think that's where the CGI stuff looks a little bit ropey there.

550
00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:59.760
And, and, but, you know, you get that whole sequence with Christina going down, you know, the big tube and the big red button, like it's always great to have David Tennant's story with a big red button.

551
00:42:59.820 --> 00:43:01.559
I think that is so great.

552
00:43:01.619 --> 00:43:15.900
And even though I had watched it like a week ago and then I watched it last night, I had forgotten that she is clever enough to press the big red button on the way back up to trap the sort of stingray down below.

553
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:22.920
And in fact, every single human character on that bus does a clever thing or contributes in some way.

554
00:43:22.920 --> 00:43:31.920
Even Angela, who's crying, knows that you can get through the unit phone tree menu by repeatedly pressing zero.

555
00:43:31.980 --> 00:43:37.679
Everyone contributes in some way to the solution and everyone kind of knows what's going on in a way.

556
00:43:37.739 --> 00:43:51.300
So there is something sort of rather fun about how incredibly competent she is and how sort of, you know, everyone else is a bit helpless and a bit hopeless, but they're not completely useless and I do kind of like that.

557
00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:55.079
Well, the boys make themselves useful by digging the bus out.

558
00:43:55.139 --> 00:44:00.420
Yeah, no, no, but Barclay can fix the, you know, engine and stuff like that.

559
00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:02.519
But you know that what all that is a reference to.

560
00:44:02.579 --> 00:44:04.500
Flight of the Phoenix.

561
00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:18.239
It's a book made into a film and then remade recently, and it's, well, a book about the plane crashes in the Sahara, and then one of the survivor says he's an airplane designer, and they can make a flyable plane out of the wreckage of the old plane, and that's how they, with the survivor.

562
00:44:18.300 --> 00:44:20.579
So it's actually, it's pretty clear it's a direct reference to that.

563
00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:28.079
Oh, no, and I think in the writer's tale, RTD admits to that. like that being inspiration.

564
00:44:28.139 --> 00:44:32.400
Yeah, as well as like Indiana Jones, the fly, obviously.

565
00:44:32.400 --> 00:44:50.280
And the relationship between the doctrine, Christina, is based on Sherard, the Carrie Grant, Audrey Hepburn film. where the 2 characters are basically incredibly witty to each other and then have to run for their lives.

566
00:44:50.699 --> 00:44:52.440
Yes, okay.

567
00:44:52.500 --> 00:44:54.239
In most of modern Doctor Who.

568
00:44:54.300 --> 00:44:57.059
And they literally have to run from that spaceship back to the bus.

569
00:44:57.179 --> 00:44:58.679
I mean, through those sand dunes.

570
00:44:58.739 --> 00:45:00.719
I mean, how tough would that be?

571
00:45:00.840 --> 00:45:05.639
I mean, we only see a little bit of it, but when it cut to that, I'm thinking, 0 my goodness, that would just be horrendous.

572
00:45:05.699 --> 00:45:08.699
Hard on the calves. horrendous.

573
00:45:08.760 --> 00:45:10.559
I had they thought they'd been walking for half a day.

574
00:45:10.559 --> 00:45:11.760
How did they get back so quickly?

575
00:45:11.820 --> 00:45:17.159
Well, there is a little bit about that, though, when they leave them to dig out the bus and do all that.

576
00:45:17.219 --> 00:45:23.159
And they go, well, you know, you people dig out the bus, but we're going to do something interesting and walk up to this dune. they're the posh people.

577
00:45:23.219 --> 00:45:24.179
They're the posh people, yes.

578
00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:35.099
You know, and then at the end, the doctor sentences Nathan and Barclay to death by saying beat some privates in unit because we know that they never survive, right?

579
00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:36.360
red shirts.

580
00:45:36.420 --> 00:45:39.000
Oh, but these ones are going back to have chips and gravy or whatever it is.

581
00:45:39.059 --> 00:45:40.260
So they will survive.

582
00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:53.519
There is that moment right at the very end where Lou and Carmen come to say goodbye to the doctor and the doctor screws up his face and does his worst, Dick Van Dyke accent goes, oh, chips and gravy, lovely.

583
00:45:53.579 --> 00:45:58.380
And that's all I've learned about you and it's really, it's super off-putting.

584
00:45:58.440 --> 00:46:05.460
And perhaps there's something deliberate about that because, of course, we get the prophecy.

585
00:46:05.699 --> 00:46:08.820
So that's her deliberately...

586
00:46:08.940 --> 00:46:11.760
I like to think that's her, okay, stop patronising me.

587
00:46:11.820 --> 00:46:12.960
You get it dicey.

588
00:46:13.019 --> 00:46:14.340
That's it That's it.

589
00:46:14.460 --> 00:46:17.099
How do we feel about our 3rd prophecy for in as many years?

590
00:46:17.219 --> 00:46:19.320
In many years, there's many weeks.

591
00:46:19.320 --> 00:46:21.900
Like, I mean, so we had Yana, didn't we?

592
00:46:21.960 --> 00:46:32.159
We had, you are not alone, and then we had, everyone's gonna die. saying all these stuff, but then we had, then we had the, the point he made and we had the, what was the next?

593
00:46:32.219 --> 00:46:37.860
The woman in the, the blonde-headed woman in the um, to Donna, who wasn't the, at the shadow proclamation.

594
00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:46.320
It's sort of like, this is now the trope that Russell T. Davies is everybody has got some sort of psychic ability, like low level psychability, like every other episode.

595
00:46:46.380 --> 00:46:48.360
Going back to Gwyneth.

596
00:46:48.420 --> 00:46:49.559
Yeah, I guess so.

597
00:46:49.619 --> 00:46:57.059
I think it's slightly problematic because it has to be like a black woman with a sort of, you know, West Indian accent.

598
00:46:57.119 --> 00:46:58.440
That's my problem.

599
00:46:58.500 --> 00:47:01.619
I was wondering whether that was going to be brought up because it's problematic.

600
00:47:01.679 --> 00:47:04.079
She's not, you know, she's quite clearly an immigrant.

601
00:47:04.139 --> 00:47:05.400
She's, you know, West Indian.

602
00:47:05.460 --> 00:47:07.199
It's that witch doctor sort of thing.

603
00:47:07.920 --> 00:47:18.480
It's the same with Chupo Chung in turn left where she's, you know, she's clearly foreign and she's a sort of soothsayer or fortune teller or something.

604
00:47:18.539 --> 00:47:20.039
And it is unfortunate.

605
00:47:20.099 --> 00:47:33.539
And there is always this sort of weird tension between representation, and it's like, yes, you know, it's nice that we have black characters, and then we have more than one set of black characters on the bus, but one set has to be...

606
00:47:33.539 --> 00:47:35.880
Yeah, it's...

607
00:47:35.940 --> 00:47:44.340
Yes, but if she was Miss Hawthorne, you wouldn't, that night, you could, she was kind of some kind of mystic sort of strange woman from a country village.

608
00:47:44.400 --> 00:47:54.119
But having said that, all they needed to do was have her with a more standard British accent rather than an English 2nd language type accent, whatever it's supposed to be.

609
00:47:54.179 --> 00:47:59.280
I think that's the thing that kind of maybe tips it over to the edge, at least in the modern era, I think.

610
00:47:59.340 --> 00:47:59.760
I think so too.

611
00:47:59.820 --> 00:48:00.539
Yeah.

612
00:48:00.599 --> 00:48:02.159
But I do like them.

613
00:48:02.219 --> 00:48:12.000
And I do, there's that moment where Lou talks about them winning the lottery twice a week and Lady Christina sneers. you know, oh, you don't look very rich.

614
00:48:12.059 --> 00:48:25.739
And then, and then she's kind of really properly abashed by his response where he says no, but we win £10 every, you know, twice a week and she's kind of ashamed for being so horrible.

615
00:48:25.800 --> 00:48:28.380
So I do, I do like them a lot.

616
00:48:28.440 --> 00:48:31.679
But like is another prophecy cheating?

617
00:48:31.739 --> 00:48:42.480
The thing I have against the prophecy is not that we've had them before in the show, but it's just that it's the beginning of the great long goodbye, which is irritating.

618
00:48:42.539 --> 00:48:48.119
So, so you don't, so you don't want, he will not full times at all.

619
00:48:49.199 --> 00:48:53.400
See, I wouldn't mind it if it had been seeded a bit earlier.

620
00:48:53.460 --> 00:48:55.079
Oh no, that would be worse.

621
00:48:55.139 --> 00:48:59.460
I think if it's seeded, it's seeded at the end of Waters of Mars.

622
00:48:59.519 --> 00:49:01.139
It's like...

623
00:49:01.139 --> 00:49:04.139
But see, to me, that's useless because then it's like literally the next episode.

624
00:49:04.199 --> 00:49:06.239
And so why bother even having it?

625
00:49:06.300 --> 00:49:10.079
And so here I just kind of think it's been shoehorned in because we need to have some sort of link.

626
00:49:10.139 --> 00:49:24.900
I think that what it does do, like what it actually properly does is foster audience engagement in the sense that we're wondering what he will knock 4 times means, and it is brought up again, I think, for us in the end of time.

627
00:49:24.960 --> 00:49:27.900
And I do think that it's a surprise when it comes.

628
00:49:27.960 --> 00:49:29.519
Like we've kind of forgotten about it.

629
00:49:29.579 --> 00:49:34.920
We'll get there, but we've kind of forgotten about it when he finally does knock 4 times and then we realise what it is.

630
00:49:34.980 --> 00:49:38.280
And I think that's a good moment and maybe the prophecy is worth that.

631
00:49:38.340 --> 00:49:39.539
Okay.

632
00:49:39.599 --> 00:49:42.840
So now in discussing with this with you.

633
00:49:42.900 --> 00:49:48.539
Perhaps that is a point of view that I hadn't considered the fact that it does add some gravitas to the end of this episode.

634
00:49:48.719 --> 00:49:50.099
Yeah.

635
00:49:50.219 --> 00:49:56.099
I can see it from a publicity point of view that it's established out there that Tennant is leaving.

636
00:49:56.159 --> 00:49:59.099
Let's sort of foreshadow it, et cetera, et cetera.

637
00:49:59.159 --> 00:50:16.079
It's just, from my point of view, I'm kind of sick of the thing that we've gotten into the habit of ever since even Colin Baker, where it's almost like the doctor spends his entire 1st season having just regenerated and his entire last season about to regenerate.

638
00:50:16.139 --> 00:50:22.980
And when they're only doing 3 years or 3 seasons, it's kind of like the whole thing becomes about regeneration.

639
00:50:23.039 --> 00:50:24.960
That's the only thing that I get a bit.

640
00:50:25.019 --> 00:50:28.199
Oh, God, can we just be the doctor and then regenerate into the next one?

641
00:50:28.260 --> 00:50:35.699
I think, though, that regeneration is still super dodgy as a concept.

642
00:50:35.699 --> 00:50:43.679
In the sense that had Eccleston not, you know, had his tantrum and decided to leave, we probably wouldn't have had it.

643
00:50:43.739 --> 00:50:46.619
Russell did say he doesn't want to talk about regeneration.

644
00:50:46.679 --> 00:50:47.880
He doesn't want that to be a thing.

645
00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:50.400
He just kind of wants the cast to happen.

646
00:50:50.460 --> 00:50:52.619
But then, of course, it has to happen.

647
00:50:52.679 --> 00:50:55.500
But it's a super dodgy idea.

648
00:50:55.559 --> 00:50:57.539
The 1st time it happens.

649
00:50:57.599 --> 00:51:00.539
And it's kind of slightly crap.

650
00:51:00.599 --> 00:51:03.719
And and so you have to sell it to the audience.

651
00:51:03.780 --> 00:51:16.199
And now you have David Tennant, who is by any standard, just an incredibly successful doctor, whom everyone is going to miss, and whose departure the show might not survive.

652
00:51:16.260 --> 00:51:19.739
And so I think you have to properly build up to her.

653
00:51:19.800 --> 00:51:27.420
So would you have preferred a recasting of somebody's hands halfway through this?

654
00:51:27.480 --> 00:51:28.260
No, no, no.

655
00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:41.219
Look, I think regeneration is a thing, you know, some people say, yes, it's the most genius idea that ever happened, and if no one had come up with it, we wouldn't have the show now, but it's not what gets decided at the end of the 10th planet in any sense.

656
00:51:41.280 --> 00:51:49.500
It's just like, and now the role of the doctor will be played by Patrick Troughton, and we're not going to explain it, and if you want to know why, then you can just...

657
00:51:49.500 --> 00:52:00.840
No, no, if I may say the reason why it's regarded as genius is because then what they would have done is they would have cast another old grey-haired man to basically play precisely the same role.

658
00:52:00.900 --> 00:52:05.039
What they did, the genius was that they changed the character in the process.

659
00:52:05.099 --> 00:52:06.599
And I think that's what people are talking.

660
00:52:06.659 --> 00:52:09.420
Yeah, rather than rather than me in story mechanics of it.

661
00:52:09.480 --> 00:52:10.800
You just cast a new person.

662
00:52:10.860 --> 00:52:12.539
Yeah, entirely.

663
00:52:12.599 --> 00:52:18.179
Yeah, because it allows you to completely retool the show every 3 or 4 or 5 or 7 years.

664
00:52:18.239 --> 00:52:20.760
Yeah, and that refreshes it in a way.

665
00:52:20.820 --> 00:52:21.539
Sure.

666
00:52:21.599 --> 00:52:29.280
But I think that that's a given for us, but I don't think it's a given that it works in a show in 2009. or whatever.

667
00:52:29.340 --> 00:52:34.679
And so I do think that there's it's necessary to kind of shepherd the audience along.

668
00:52:34.739 --> 00:52:39.599
I don't know about that because even when the show comes back in 2005.

669
00:52:40.380 --> 00:52:51.000
Yes, they have to reeducate people or educate people as to what the show is, but it's established that different actors or actresses play the role of a doctor.

670
00:52:51.059 --> 00:52:53.699
It's part of the thing.

671
00:52:53.760 --> 00:52:57.719
I know, but the question is, are people going to switch off after it happens?

672
00:52:57.780 --> 00:53:01.739
Not can they accept it as an in-story element, but are they going to say?

673
00:53:02.280 --> 00:53:03.360
don't care anymore Yeah, exactly.

674
00:53:03.420 --> 00:53:03.960
Yeah.

675
00:53:04.019 --> 00:53:07.800
And so I do think that kind of properly celebrating what tenant's done.

676
00:53:07.860 --> 00:53:13.320
And to be fair, it's kind of 5 minutes at the end of this episode and then it's that horrific two.

677
00:53:13.380 --> 00:53:15.900
Well, it's not horrific, but that...

678
00:53:15.900 --> 00:53:18.840
Interesting too, partner at the end of the year.

679
00:53:19.199 --> 00:53:22.500
So, you know, like I'm prepared to give them that.

680
00:53:22.559 --> 00:53:24.420
Maybe I'm changing my mind as we speak.

681
00:53:24.480 --> 00:53:26.760
I just felt that it came out of the blue.

682
00:53:26.820 --> 00:53:40.800
And but I can see why you got to link these things and the audience to expect some sort of, I think there's an expectation of having some sort of linking to a season, right?

683
00:53:40.860 --> 00:53:44.159
Or a series of things like this, and that's its tenuous link.

684
00:53:44.219 --> 00:53:48.840
Um, I don't think there's a, there's not a win-win situation with it.

685
00:53:48.900 --> 00:53:52.500
Yeah, you know, there's positives and negatives for and against it.

686
00:53:57.300 --> 00:54:03.840
Just another cute unit thing is, along with the reference, the giant robot, is the, I don't believe it, guns that work.

687
00:54:03.900 --> 00:54:04.860
Yeah.

688
00:54:04.860 --> 00:54:07.800
It's just that beautiful.

689
00:54:07.920 --> 00:54:14.400
I mean, it's almost like that battlefield reference where, you know, he says a, you know, Teflon coached bullet or whatever it is that'll go through a dalek, you know.

690
00:54:14.519 --> 00:54:15.719
Finally, they...

691
00:54:15.719 --> 00:54:18.780
I actually like to imagine Russell going, 0 my god.

692
00:54:18.840 --> 00:54:22.619
So we're going to let 3 of the stingrays into London.

693
00:54:22.679 --> 00:54:26.880
What on earth am I going to do to solve that problem?

694
00:54:26.940 --> 00:54:32.099
And then suddenly going, oh, wait, everyone has guns. you know they could just shoot it.

695
00:54:32.219 --> 00:54:58.260
For me, one of the most joyous things about this, and going back to it being specialist, the fact that Christina's this thief, and she's stolen this magnificent jewel, or this cup that is worth a gazillion dollars, and then towards the end of the episode, you know, the doctor takes it and she's saying, well, don't just, you know, don't do anything to it, and then he just gets the hammer and goes, whack, and the whole cup is just like, I just think that's wonderful.

696
00:54:58.320 --> 00:55:11.159
I agree, but isn't it great too, because it goes to that Doctor Who thing of everything has its time, everything dies, and it's okay for things to have a finite duration, because we know, we can go back in time and still enjoy that duration.

697
00:55:11.280 --> 00:55:13.980
We can go back and enjoy Charles Dickens. you know we can bring him back to life.

698
00:55:14.039 --> 00:55:18.360
And so it's almost like the doctor doesn't have the same view of an antique object.

699
00:55:18.420 --> 00:55:21.659
Even though in City of Death, he's worried about the Louis Can's chair.

700
00:55:21.719 --> 00:55:26.519
It's that thing that if it's this, we needed to survive bash, bash, bash.

701
00:55:26.579 --> 00:55:27.539
That is hilarious, isn't it?

702
00:55:27.659 --> 00:55:31.980
I think it's the back gold object is of less worth than all of the people on the past.

703
00:55:32.039 --> 00:55:32.460
Yes.

704
00:55:32.460 --> 00:55:34.079
And that's obviously what's happening.

705
00:55:34.139 --> 00:55:38.639
My favourite thing about that scene is the doctor starts to describe, I need a metal.

706
00:55:38.699 --> 00:55:42.780
It's malleable, it's ductile, and you kind of go, I see where this is going.

707
00:55:42.840 --> 00:55:44.460
You know, it's so terrific.

708
00:55:44.519 --> 00:55:51.719
And even the little joke with Daniel Kaluya coming in with his sort of fake watch and stuff, you know, offering his fake not actually gold watch.

709
00:55:51.780 --> 00:55:53.760
It's so cute.

710
00:55:53.820 --> 00:55:55.079
He's terrific.

711
00:55:55.139 --> 00:55:56.760
He'll go places, I think.

712
00:56:05.880 --> 00:56:07.079
The story is very well made.

713
00:56:07.199 --> 00:56:08.880
There's lots of tension.

714
00:56:08.940 --> 00:56:10.920
There's lovely choices of shots.

715
00:56:10.980 --> 00:56:12.059
There's great dialogue.

716
00:56:12.119 --> 00:56:15.960
But for me, where it's not as successful as it might have been.

717
00:56:16.019 --> 00:56:17.880
It's completely linear.

718
00:56:17.940 --> 00:56:21.360
The characters on the bus, as I've said before, they're just plot cyphers.

719
00:56:21.420 --> 00:56:25.380
They're there to dig the bus out and each of them provides their own little way of doing that.

720
00:56:25.440 --> 00:56:27.780
There's just no complexity in it.

721
00:56:27.840 --> 00:56:30.780
Now, perhaps the calls back to the earth could have been more meaningful.

722
00:56:30.840 --> 00:56:32.880
Maybe something needed to be happening on Earth.

723
00:56:32.940 --> 00:56:43.739
Maybe some of the stingray creatures had already made through, maybe just the one or 2 and there were these cries of people, oh my god, there's one of them's already gotten through, or someone on earth who was sending out the signal, maybe even unwittingly.

724
00:56:43.800 --> 00:56:49.860
To open up the wormhole and unit were already tracking that part of the thing.

725
00:56:49.920 --> 00:56:51.539
And that's how they got involved, right?

726
00:56:51.719 --> 00:56:54.119
It's all monster menace.

727
00:56:54.179 --> 00:56:55.320
Now that's fine.

728
00:56:55.380 --> 00:56:58.139
But I can't recall any other stories.

729
00:56:58.199 --> 00:57:04.199
Certainly no classic era stories where the threat is so completely uncomplex and one dimensional.

730
00:57:04.679 --> 00:57:08.280
And is that why I don't feel like watching it again?

731
00:57:08.340 --> 00:57:09.239
I loved watching it.

732
00:57:09.300 --> 00:57:12.179
I enjoyed it, but I didn't go, oh, I want to say that again.

733
00:57:12.239 --> 00:57:14.400
And it's not because it was bad, because it wasn't.

734
00:57:14.460 --> 00:57:16.559
It's just because there's nothing else to it.

735
00:57:16.619 --> 00:57:19.920
Now, when the universe was less than half its present size.

736
00:57:19.980 --> 00:57:21.780
And there was no new who.

737
00:57:21.840 --> 00:57:33.059
We dutifully read all the interviews in the production team where they would say, they had no money, so we had to come up with brilliant stories to engage the viewer without being able to rely on Wizbang special effects to create a spectacle.

738
00:57:33.119 --> 00:57:35.579
And we'd all nod sagely in agreement.

739
00:57:35.639 --> 00:57:37.019
Yes, yes, Barry, you're absolutely right.

740
00:57:37.800 --> 00:57:40.260
But I think they were right.

741
00:57:40.320 --> 00:57:43.739
And I think Planet of the Dead does prove the point.

742
00:57:43.800 --> 00:57:51.059
When they were planning this one out, I think it's pretty obvious that they sat down and said, right, we're going to make a really gripping, suspenseful story that we'll have everyone on the edge of their seats.

743
00:57:51.119 --> 00:58:00.360
Now, because they could afford to make the episode properly, in glorious HD, even if it was the HD came later, and go to Dubai and all that.

744
00:58:00.420 --> 00:58:03.059
I wonder if that's where that conversation ends.

745
00:58:03.119 --> 00:58:13.139
Now contrast that with them sitting down and saying, hmm, we're only going to be able to afford to make 3 of those stingrays, and 2 of them are going to look a bit dicey, and the bus is going to be parked in a quarry and chroma.

746
00:58:13.199 --> 00:58:19.800
Is that when they say, right, we need to find something else to distract the viewer from that?

747
00:58:19.860 --> 00:58:21.059
What else is there?

748
00:58:21.119 --> 00:58:28.500
I mean, even compare this to new series stories like midnight, which I know is a completely different kind of story because it's a close knit story.

749
00:58:28.559 --> 00:58:33.960
But you could argue that it's a similar setup with a voiceless monster outside the bus.

750
00:58:34.019 --> 00:58:35.760
But I think that really is gripping.

751
00:58:35.760 --> 00:58:37.800
And it's not going for spectacle.

752
00:58:37.860 --> 00:58:40.860
The characters were well formed, not just cyphers for the action.

753
00:58:41.039 --> 00:58:46.320
One relies on the acting, and the other relies on the CGI in a fabulous location.

754
00:58:46.380 --> 00:58:50.519
And I think the best Doctor Who is always going to be the former, not the latter.

755
00:58:50.579 --> 00:59:01.500
So I think the problem is that this is happening outside the context of a season, and I don't think the Doctor Who's job is to always do the same thing every week.

756
00:59:01.559 --> 00:59:08.039
And I think it's absolutely in Doctor Who's remit to be spectacular looking, right?

757
00:59:08.940 --> 00:59:21.360
And so I think that in the context of a season, starting with something uncomplicated, whose job is to introduce a bunch of characters and relationships.

758
00:59:21.420 --> 00:59:23.760
That's exactly what the show always does.

759
00:59:23.820 --> 00:59:27.539
There's nothing particularly complex about Smith and Jones.

760
00:59:27.599 --> 00:59:31.380
There's nothing particularly complex about what's going on in partners in crime.

761
00:59:31.440 --> 00:59:39.119
And so this is doing that, partly as a feint, but also because it's one of the things that Doctor Who, I think, can legitimately do.

762
00:59:39.179 --> 00:59:49.079
But the thing that I think makes it disappointing for some people is that it's not followed up next week by something else and something of a different kind.

763
00:59:49.139 --> 00:59:54.599
And that's why I think specials, in a way, are absolutely not the natural fit for Doctor Who.

764
00:59:54.659 --> 01:00:02.219
I think movies aren't the natural fit for Doctor Who, because the job of Doctor Who is to do something this week that we didn't do last week.

765
01:00:29.760 --> 01:00:33.000
Well, that's all we have time for now.

766
01:00:33.059 --> 01:00:40.920
We'll be back in the next few weeks to create a lot of unnecessary work for the editors of space Wikipedia in the waters of Mars.

767
01:00:41.099 --> 01:00:57.480
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us at flights through entirety on Facebook, at FTE podcast on Twitter, and on our website, flights through entirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, and Jody into Terror.

768
01:00:57.780 --> 01:01:07.139
Until next time, always remember to floss and disinfect extremely thoroughly, before and after making out with a Tritivore.

769
01:01:07.260 --> 01:01:08.940
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

770
01:01:09.000 --> 01:01:09.780
Good night.

771
01:01:09.840 --> 01:01:10.679
See you soon.

772
01:01:10.739 --> 01:01:11.460
Bye for now.

773
01:01:12.599 --> 01:01:18.360
That was Flight for Entirety, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley, Simon Moore, and James Selwood.

774
01:01:18.420 --> 01:01:22.619
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings performance by Jane Orberg.

775
01:01:22.679 --> 01:01:29.340
This episode, Big Finish Call Me Now, was recorded on the 4th of September 2020 and released on the 20th of September.

776
01:01:32.400 --> 01:01:45.840
As soon as intergalactic travel gets back to normal, why not reward yourself with a relaxing holiday on San Helios, where you can enjoy its sunny weather, its breathtaking vistas, and its long prison sentences for homosexual activity.

777
01:01:46.739 --> 01:01:48.659
Isn't that a good out?

778
01:01:48.780 --> 01:01:50.099
I think that's probably good out.

779
01:01:50.159 --> 01:01:51.659
I mean, I could go, I could.

780
01:01:51.719 --> 01:01:53.280
Well, you can always edit together in different order.

781
01:01:53.699 --> 01:01:56.340
I think you've both got valid points.

782
01:01:56.400 --> 01:02:02.579
You know, I think if there had been something next week, maybe they would have made different story decisions in this episode.

783
01:02:02.639 --> 01:02:18.119
Perhaps as a reflection of the complexities and things that went through last year, and the fact that Russell is probably exhausted at the end of his time, that might be also a reason why the story is quite linear in nature, you know?

784
01:02:18.179 --> 01:02:30.179
So, I think there is all sorts of different reasons why it is what it is, and I can understand why people would be disappointed with that linear nature, but I can understand why it's been written like this.

785
01:02:30.239 --> 01:02:32.760
And I've enjoyed it so much more this time.

786
01:02:33.239 --> 01:02:39.420
I just don't know why Simon thinks classic Doctor Who stories were that complex, for God's sake.

787
01:02:41.400 --> 01:02:42.000
I joking.

788
01:02:42.059 --> 01:02:44.760
So, you know...

789
01:02:44.760 --> 01:02:49.980
So, you know, I have to give this one an 8 out of 10.

790
01:02:50.340 --> 01:02:52.079
I thought it was 7 out of 10.

791
01:02:52.320 --> 01:02:53.760
No, we're 7 out of 10 originally.

792
01:02:53.820 --> 01:02:55.320
Oh, I see, listen to the show.

793
01:02:55.380 --> 01:02:57.119
We've talked, we've talked him up.

794
01:02:57.179 --> 01:02:58.440
No, no, no.

795
01:02:58.500 --> 01:02:59.760
I would have given it 7 before.

796
01:02:59.820 --> 01:03:00.480
Right.

797
01:03:00.480 --> 01:03:05.519
Yeah, like when I watched it again, I've revised my opinion and my opinion has gone up.

798
01:03:05.820 --> 01:03:08.159
On my opinion, it's certainly gone up.

799
01:03:09.059 --> 01:03:15.659
It makes me wish there had been more stories with them and I think that's a good thing to be left wanting more.

800
01:03:15.719 --> 01:03:16.619
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

801
01:03:16.679 --> 01:03:20.880
No, CS Lewis said, there are 2 times to stop doing something before everyone's sick of it.

802
01:03:20.940 --> 01:03:22.019
And afterwards.

803
01:03:26.280 --> 01:03:28.320
Oh, that was our tag, by the way.