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NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:48:23

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Hello, dear Lister, and welcome back to Flight through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast with compelling science fiction reasons to stand around watching while your house burns down.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Pete.

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I'm Conrad Well, we're 40000000 miles away from home.

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Some of us are starting to get upsettingly moist, and it looks like only Doctor Who can save us now.

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So while we wait for him to get round to that.

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Let's discuss the 2nd Doctor Who special of 2009, The Waters of Mars.

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I just want to start off this story by saying that these specials are a personal affront to me, personally, because the year I moved to the bloody UK is the 1st year, we don't have a season of Doctor Who.

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Seven months.

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It's been 7 months since the last episode.

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That's the longest it's ever been since the hiatus.

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It's painful, anguish.

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Yeah, yeah.

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We talked last time, I think, about how we felt like we were promised a sort of fuller season of specials than we eventually got.

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Is that right?

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Does anyone else remember that?

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We were talking out, you know, incomplete ignorance last time?

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I remember reading that we nearly didn't get this one because of the financial crash, Woolworths stopping selling CD singles, and then going bankrupt, and so to entertain not being able to get extra money from Woolworths to top up the Doctor Who budget, like they had been doing, apparently, for like a few years running along.

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So that, yeah, the collapse of the CD singles market, nearly lost as another episode of Doctor Who.

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We nearly had Shada, part two.

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And that by now we'd be getting it re-released with puppets and things instead.

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But it made it.

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They made it somehow.

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What is that mysterious dripping sound?

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So is this the best Mars-based special of the 2009 series?

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think it might be.

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Yeah, I think he's got the edge.

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Yeah.

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Actually, actually, generally, this is this is the one people, if you have a conversation with people generally, You talk about the year of specials and everyone goes, oh, yeah, water's Mars was great and it does seem to come up as the champion of it.

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Is that was that accurate?

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Yeah, I remember at the time, it's funny, at the time I was, I was dating a non-Doctor Who fan, and I think, I think, um, I tried to show him Arc in space, um, because I was going to show him Cursor Fenrick, actually, and, um, he was German, and like a week before I was going to show him Cursor Fenrick, he got really annoyed with how obsessed with World War 2 British media was.

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So I'm like, oh, okay, not that one.

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So I showed him mark in space instead and he wasn't terribly impressed, but he was impressed by Waters of Mars.

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He's like, oh, you know, that was that was serious and good drama and nice dilemma and da da. said, do you want to watch it Christmas?

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No.

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You did say that and not.

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It'll all be over by Christmas.

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You didn't say that.

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That would be less good.

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And Nathan, can you go back and edit where we all gasped and tutted when Brendan said he was dating a non-fan?

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That would sound really judgemental, obviously, when it goes out. outrageous.

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That's why that's why most of the series season was pulled when we heard, you know, you were dating somebody, you wasn't into it.

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We were like, no, no, no, no, you can't have them coming over here and taking our season. precious Doctor Who who rationed it.

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We're going totally against the international flavour of water's Mars now.

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Well, that is actually super striking this time.

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It is that sort of trout and era, moon-based style sort of international team of people only with ladies.

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Yeah, yeah, well, you know, um, Wheel in Space had Tanya Lernov and Gemma Corwin and Donald Sumter in a tanning booth.

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With one exception, this time they're not doing the accents. which is, although I thought, when I 1st watched it, I was like, what is it with this problem that Doctor Who has at the moment, whenever there's a young American emotions in it, their accents are completely unconvincing.

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And then I go and Google them and half the time it turns out they actually are American.

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And that really blew my mind because I thought I spent the whole of this watching, I think, in that accent that Roman's doing.

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It's not really American.

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Why couldn't they get a proper American?

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And then he says that, yeah, he's from Michigan.

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No, I know nothing.

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Yuri's accent seems to be genuine.

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Peter O'Brien, as we know from neighbours in the late 80s.

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I have to say on this rewatch, he's a lot less hot in this than I did think in 2009.

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And part of it is because for about the 1st half of the episode it looks like he's wearing a really bad toupee, but it's like, no, that's just his hand.

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Yeah, that's Israel.

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Are they still getting into grips with HD and clothes and makeup?

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It's a bit brutal sometimes.

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David Tennant's got a sort of blue glow in some scenes that seems to actually be coming out of his skin rather than the lighting.

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I think Steffy drops the accent at some point.

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There's at least one sort of line that she shouts across the main room to the doctor and it's super kind of posh.

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It's not.

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Yeah.

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Well, I didn't realise until I was reading my Doctor Who, the complete history. afterwards that she's meant to be German.

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Same here.

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I straight up thought she was Swedish or Danish.

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I think the actress is German, so maybe they were asking her to picture it, but a bit less German.

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I know, but bit more German.

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It could be like that situation with the Terminator where Arnold Schwarzenegger offered to dub the Terminator himself in German.

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Ah, for the German market.

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And the German distributor says, no, he's Austrian.

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He sounds like a farmer.

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One of the things about this, I think, is that it manages to pull off the trick that the impossible planet pulls off by having a cast that you really get to know, I think, quite well.

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And, you know, not with gimmicks or anything like that, but just with, well, I guess part of the thing is this theme of home and family and children.

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And so we open, you know, with Adelaide talking to her daughter and the granddaughter who we will later find is so important, is actually on the call as well.

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And, you know, we see Yuri talking to his brother on a sort of old recording and stuff like that.

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And then when Steffy, um, you know, is about to be hit by the water, she turns on the screen and starts talking to her children.

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And so just by giving them family relationships, by having all of the characters call each other by their 1st names, and by sort of delineating relationships among all of the characters really, really quickly, I think that this does, you know, the best job since the impossible planet of creating a crew that we're inclined to care about.

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Russell C.

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Davis is great at that.

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You know, just get sketching characters in, yeah, passing phone call or passing comment.

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He's he's a genius at that.

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There are glorious little titbits to be found.

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If you go, if you pause it on their screen bios.

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You know, when it'll fash it up on screen, their date of death, which is a really nice dramatic thing anyway.

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But if you pause it, you find out amazing things like Mia was the 1st person to successfully cultivate asparagus in Martian soil on Earth, and that's what got her place there.

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Every character should have something like that.

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The doctor is a Dr. Tarak is an Olympic medallist, et cetera, et cetera.

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I reckon Russell's written them.

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Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if I'm friend of the podcast.

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Joe Lidster has written it because he did a lot of the web content for Russell's era.

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Ah, yeah.

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Yeah, right.

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And it's lovely that in 100 years in the future.

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The BBC website has reverted nostalgically to a fairly similar template to the one it had in the early 2000s, including a click here for print version button, which, yeah, I paused it.

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Well, that's a 3D printer, you see by 2059.

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Yeah, you get to 3D print your own copy of Yuri. by just clicking on a simple link. perfect.

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If he can just up his game about the hilarious anecdotes from his brother.

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Is it of his brother and his husband?

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And he tells his story.

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I'm like, I'm really dying to know.

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And he tells the most boring story.

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I was like, he's like, oh, he's always spending money on things.

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I'm like, oh, okay.

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But, you know, that's good though.

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That is that kind of mundane, you know, everyday chat.

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It's also Russell sort of foregoing the chance to do a gag.

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Like, I can't imagine Stephen Moffatt writing a scene like that where there wasn't like an incredibly unexpected and hilarious gag.

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And Russell isn't going for the gag.

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He's just going for a kind of naturalism sort of thing.

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So, you know, yeah.

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And something that hit a bit different when I was watching that scene this time is you have a Russian man and his husband.

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Yeah.

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And I sort of thought back and I thought, hold on, you know, the sort of anti-gay crackdown in Russia, I know what's happening while I was living in the UK, but looking back in the years leading up to 2009 was when Moscow Pride started to be banned.

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Right.

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So, you know, Russell saying, look, in 60 years, we've casually got Russian men with husbands and, you know, they have money troubles, just like any other couple.

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There's Russell actually wrote the brothers full speech in English and then had it translated into Russian.

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And it turns out the way that Yuri's brother discovered it was because he was using the brothers account.

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He's like, hold on, where's this $400 come from?

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And this one, nothing, it's nothing.

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No, it's $400 and another.

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And that's apparently what he's saying in the court.

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I love the look on Maggie's face as she's lurching up behind him.

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She deserves all the awards for converted to monster acting that we've got going.

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She's clearly studied this very well and she's absolutely nailed it.

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And having her eyes not go quite as monstery as the others.

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It's mentioned as well, I think, that she's a bit more human than the others.

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So she's able to be a bit more conniving and calculating, whereas the others are more primal.

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And I love the way she goes for every shot.

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She's working in the camera.

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In earlier versions of the script.

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She was, she was speaking with the voice of the flood.

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But as the writing process went along, and this had a very tortured writing process.

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But as the writing process went along, they're like, actually, no, let's not have them speak at all.

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Let's have them be completely otherworldly.

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Let's have them scream, which immediately makes me think of hemobores.

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Um, but yeah, Scream of Wars.

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But yeah, just make them so...

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Aliens that live on screams.

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We've not done that, have we?

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We've done the opposite, but we've not.

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Big finish, big finish, big finish.

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Commission recommissioned recommission.

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Yeah, that's got to have that's got to have Mel in it.

149
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And it's got to be called down.

150
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Don't scream.

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Whatever you do, don't scream.

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Yeah, it's the sort of the opposite of fury from the deep.

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Yeah.

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Do you think it's deliberate?

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There's the line in there, someone says, don't even drink.

156
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And that's that's a deliberate blink reference.

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What do we think of the monsters?

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We've already talked about Maggie's performance, but we get Andy and Tarik very quickly turned into sort of scary lumbering monsters.

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How do we think they work?

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It's really interesting. as I always say on any podcast I do.

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I'm basically indoct for the monsters.

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This is what I turn up for, really.

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And it's interesting.

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I mean, the reason Maggie, they actually had, you know, they wrote in that line of, oh, she's closer to human because she's this, that, and the other, but um, it was a toning down thing because they would, they, There's a lot on this story and it keep coming up about just toning it down and raining it in, both in terms of the production and the story.

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And that was one thing that they were really unsure about.

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And Russell's is like, they're 2 like zombies.

167
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The white eyes are just too freaky.

168
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He was actually going to take all the white contacts out.

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But they'd already shot Andy and Tarik.

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So they did, but on on the close-ups for her, They just decided to remove the white contact and write a lineup.

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And they're terrifying.

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It did sound like a line that had been written up in order to get rid of contact lenses. like it did sort of sound. like that's what they were trying to do.

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And they're super effective.

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And I know initially they were talking CGI, you know, with some sort of like the abyss, you know, that kind of CGI water tentacle type vibe.

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And there was still talk of like full prosthetics, some sort of water troll or something.

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So they looked at various options and I think they, I mean, it's really effective.

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I mean, they're really horrible to look at.

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I think it's one of those things.

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It's just very hard for anyone to look at that and not go just sort of be slightly repulsed.

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They're terrifying.

181
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They're really really scary.

182
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And although they are slightly zombie-like.

183
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Those boys can run and, you know, full points to Elsa Burke for getting that run in unison and they're really, it's a really powerful when you see these runners who are really good at running and it looks like they're just a long tracks. their core is just like going on one straight line.

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They've absolutely got that run, fantastic.

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So they move really well.

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I think they're just super, super effective.

187
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I think too, that just having water pouring off them all the time and having them wet all the time.

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You know, it's not easy or straightforward to have sort of wet people and people who are sort of, you know, constantly wet.

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And so it's really kind of remarkable looking and it's just super simple.

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It's a little bit like, um, the way that, you know, the H2O scoop in in Smith and Jones, where it's just rain falling upwards.

191
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It's a very, very sort of simple thing.

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Um, I just think having them wet and having them just dripping with water and pouring water sort of all the time is, you know, really imaginative and effective as well.

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In the grand tradition of alien, which, of course, used, and we can say this because it was officially used in a movie, used KY jelly on the alien to make it look really sort of viscous and fluidy, this production, of course, uses hair gel.

194
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Oh really?

195
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That's how they sort of look sticky and glistening.

196
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Hair gel.

197
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Mike explains Peter O'Brien's hair.

198
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Okay.

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That's where the shell went.

200
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Okay.

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I want to attend doctor's greatest weaknesses, of course.

202
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But it's not trembling with emotion.

203
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Has to be said, his head does look astonishingly good at this.

204
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It does really look good and I'm not, yes, it's great.

205
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Andy is played by Alan Roscoe, who has been a long time monster performer in the RTD era all the way back to.

206
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He was the lead auton.

207
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Oh wow.

208
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So it's kind of like if you've got a principal monster in these 1st 4.5 years of new Doctor Who, it's Alan Ruscoe or Paul Casey pretty much.

209
00:16:22.379 --> 00:16:29.340
And one, they knew he'd be able to put up with the prosthetics, but two, they were also like, yeah, let's give him the speaking part.

210
00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:29.759
Go on.

211
00:16:29.820 --> 00:16:31.200
Well, they're nearing the end.

212
00:16:31.259 --> 00:16:32.700
There's not going to be much of a chance.

213
00:16:32.820 --> 00:16:49.200
This is like, this does have that real feel of being the last proper normal episode before we go off into mad finale zone, I guess, because this could drop at any point, but as a story in its own structure, but it's like, yeah, getting a lot of the old gang back and getting Gray Harper to direct this.

214
00:16:49.259 --> 00:16:50.340
This is his last one, isn't it?

215
00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:51.419
So far.

216
00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:55.080
And um, having, I think Russell C.

217
00:16:55.080 --> 00:17:00.960
Davis has probably in the back of his mind had a, had a checklist all this time of all the, all this uh, Doctor Who formats he wants to do.

218
00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:03.539
And he finally decided to do a proper, pure historical.

219
00:17:03.539 --> 00:17:04.799
And that's what we've got here.

220
00:17:06.059 --> 00:17:09.839
It just happens to be, it's basically a remake of the massacre.

221
00:17:09.900 --> 00:17:11.819
If you just replace the water with Catholics.

222
00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:19.859
And sort of David Tennant is being Stephen Taylor, the actual lead character of the massacre.

223
00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:21.480
And yeah, there's not much else.

224
00:17:21.480 --> 00:17:24.599
And Adelaide is, no, she's not dodo.

225
00:17:24.660 --> 00:17:27.000
Okay, I haven't thought this through entirely.

226
00:17:27.059 --> 00:17:29.880
But it's just a bit of a vibe.

227
00:17:29.940 --> 00:17:32.880
Because he was never going to do a straightforward base understiege.

228
00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:34.319
You were just talking there.

229
00:17:34.380 --> 00:17:36.660
You've just unlocked a memory that's been lurking my head.

230
00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:38.460
I hadn't realised, I read it.

231
00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:51.000
I was like, this rings a bell, and I remember, I went to a Doctor Who convention way back in, like, way back in the day, and I remember, there was a car, I was in a car, sorry, this is me trying to piece together this memory and in the front.

232
00:17:51.059 --> 00:17:52.859
This is it's sort of show busy.

233
00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:56.640
In this car there was so Nicholas Courtney is in this car.

234
00:17:56.700 --> 00:17:59.339
He's not driving the car, but Nicholas Nick Courtney is in the car.

235
00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:01.319
So I'm in a car with Nick Courtney, so this is already a good story.

236
00:18:01.380 --> 00:18:07.920
And I'm next step, but also in the car is a girl from, I'm sorry, I don't know her name.

237
00:18:07.980 --> 00:18:21.240
She was in Doomsday for a Spitnikov playing, there's a flash to like Tokyo and everyone's crazy about the ghosts or something, and there's a couple of girls, all sort of like schoolgirls, all giggling, saying, oh, the ghosts of the latest trend and all that stuff.

238
00:18:21.299 --> 00:18:23.579
She was at a convention not knowing what she was doing there.

239
00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:35.700
And I was sat next to Alan Russco and we were having this conversation and he was actually talking about, he'd done all these monsters and he was now just deciding whether it was time to just sort of say no to the monsters and just stick out for an acting part.

240
00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:36.900
So I'm really glad he got this.

241
00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:37.680
That was a lot.

242
00:18:37.740 --> 00:18:39.660
I think he was ushering it in a theatre at the time.

243
00:18:39.720 --> 00:18:41.099
I'm sorry, this is scraps.

244
00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:42.000
This is like tape.

245
00:18:42.059 --> 00:18:47.819
This is tape this is tape unspooling from a sort of theatrical riddled brain. so I'm so sorry.

246
00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:49.859
That's my story, Alan Ruscoe.

247
00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:50.640
Good evening.

248
00:18:50.700 --> 00:18:51.000
Yeah.

249
00:18:51.059 --> 00:18:52.740
Still gazing at a pocket watch.

250
00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:53.940
This anecdote comes back to you.

251
00:18:54.359 --> 00:18:54.960
I'm sorry.

252
00:18:55.019 --> 00:18:56.460
Sorry, that was terrible.

253
00:18:56.519 --> 00:19:00.059
Feel free to cut that out, but I have nothing, but that's a nug.

254
00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:02.339
It's like a sort of showbiz furball.

255
00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:03.660
I've just coughed up but there you go.

256
00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:09.000
I'm really, really glad that Alan got a chance to do that on Doc 2.

257
00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:13.799
I think that's brilliant because he was looking at the time to do, because he's, and I've got, I've read down a list because I said, I'm obsessed with monsters.

258
00:19:13.859 --> 00:19:19.799
So he played autons, tree. one of those beautiful trees from the world, one of those beautiful monsters we ever saw.

259
00:19:19.859 --> 00:19:22.500
Slyhen, the Android, and Trini.

260
00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:26.700
So I think maybe he may have been felt up by John Barrman's, there may be a lawsuit.

261
00:19:28.259 --> 00:19:32.579
And a clown in Sarah Jane, and then finally Andy in the flood.

262
00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:34.740
So good old, so, you know, well done, Alan.

263
00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:38.460
And the monster performers really, you know, they just don't get enough credit.

264
00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:39.539
They're just superb.

265
00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:46.380
And, you know, it must be galling to be on the screen all the time and hired so much and no one really recognises you, but the good thing about Doctor Who is that they do get to go.

266
00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:49.980
I'm stopping to walk up to me on monster dessert soon.

267
00:19:50.039 --> 00:19:50.700
I'll see you.

268
00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:56.700
And in this one, they get some of the best monster effects as well with the BBC.

269
00:19:58.140 --> 00:20:11.220
Well you know, Trouton had the foam machine and like, but now we've got the BBC puke machine that they've been using on Little Britain for the vomiting old ladies to get, which I think is now being, and if one thing, I wonder if there was a meeting where, you know, there's, okay, so we've got this water spurting out of them.

270
00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:12.660
Should they do the noise?

271
00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:14.279
Should they like?

272
00:20:14.700 --> 00:20:16.980
I think it's probably wise not to.

273
00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:19.079
Yeah, I'll dispose.

274
00:20:19.140 --> 00:20:20.940
It would be a bit less mysterious.

275
00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:27.599
I adore the scene when they're on the roof and CG water is just sort of pouring out if they're open mouths.

276
00:20:27.660 --> 00:20:31.799
I think it's like not convincing for a second, but I absolutely do not care.

277
00:20:31.859 --> 00:20:40.079
It's like it's like Doctor Who has moved to HD and we've got to have one special effect per episode where we haven't quite got back.

278
00:20:40.140 --> 00:20:50.700
So, you know, the bus cricket bat into the stingray last episode and then because I was watching one going, yeah, this is really great CG for the bass.

279
00:20:50.759 --> 00:20:51.539
Yeah, and this is great.

280
00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:52.619
And oh, no, no.

281
00:20:52.859 --> 00:20:54.660
No, don't do that.

282
00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:55.200
Don't do that.

283
00:20:55.259 --> 00:20:57.900
It is incredible, CG for the bass.

284
00:20:57.960 --> 00:20:59.640
Oh my goodness, it looks great.

285
00:20:59.700 --> 00:21:01.500
Yeah, like so many beauty shots of that.

286
00:21:01.559 --> 00:21:02.099
Yeah.

287
00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:03.960
Especially the explosion.

288
00:21:04.019 --> 00:21:05.460
What about the robot?

289
00:21:05.759 --> 00:21:07.680
Gadget gadget.

290
00:21:07.740 --> 00:21:09.539
But it's sort of deliberately, isn't it?

291
00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:11.640
Like, it's meant to have been built by a teenager.

292
00:21:11.700 --> 00:21:13.680
He says he does it, yeah.

293
00:21:13.740 --> 00:21:28.680
It feels like it was going to be something that we're going to do a bit more width because it's given a lot of buildup in the doctor saying he doesn't 1st of all, he says he doesn't like robots, but actually he's like, I don't like humans that design smart ass robots.

294
00:21:28.740 --> 00:21:31.859
But then he's like, 0 no, I still don't like comedy robots.

295
00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:33.539
And then he's like, I love comedy robots.

296
00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:36.000
And it's kind of like, I suppose...

297
00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:42.599
I would have liked Gadget to somehow have a little personality because he's obviously meant to be Johnny 5.

298
00:21:42.839 --> 00:21:47.039
Russell T. Davies suggested him because he just seen Wally and loved it.

299
00:21:47.099 --> 00:21:47.700
Right.

300
00:21:47.700 --> 00:21:57.839
So, but then again, you know, we're given no reason to believe Gadget has any personality or autonomy or whatever. is a little bit of a shame.

301
00:21:57.900 --> 00:22:04.019
I like, I mean, I like having a silly robot because otherwise this is kind of alien or whatever.

302
00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:07.740
Like for it to be Doctor Who, you know, we need a silly robot.

303
00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:15.480
And it doesn't shy away from using the silly robot to, you know, twice get them out of trouble and in fact to kind of save the day at the end.

304
00:22:15.539 --> 00:22:16.200
Yeah.

305
00:22:16.200 --> 00:22:32.039
And I have to say, Graham Harper's being a bit cheeky when he 1st uses Gadget to get him out of trouble because Tenant sort of crouches down out of shot and the next shot of Roman is shot from pretty much between his legs looking up and him going, what?

306
00:22:32.519 --> 00:22:34.920
It's really cheeky.

307
00:22:34.980 --> 00:22:38.819
And I refuse to believe Graham doesn't know what he's doing.

308
00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:45.660
In terms of innuendo, not necessarily in terms of anything Graham may or may not get up to in his private life.

309
00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:50.339
I'm also a massive fan of the trail of fire afterwards as well.

310
00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:56.279
Like, it is absolutely cartoonish and absolutely different. not realistic science.

311
00:22:58.619 --> 00:23:04.980
Well, that's interesting because like I think like a lot of this story, like the monsters, whatever, like it works.

312
00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:11.640
Russell said he wanted the robot to be funny, annoying, and Disney, and it's tick, tick, tick. absolutely is those things.

313
00:23:12.059 --> 00:23:20.279
And but I read a review after it was The Guardian, and they said, oh, you know, the only thing I didn't like was that bloody robot, and it wrote quite an interesting thing.

314
00:23:20.339 --> 00:23:24.000
He said, maybe it was a bit of a relief for the children, but who cares about them?

315
00:23:24.059 --> 00:23:25.680
It's not really for them. is it?

316
00:23:25.740 --> 00:23:27.119
And that's the end of the review.

317
00:23:27.180 --> 00:23:31.980
And it's it's kind of a good point, as in, it does what they intended to do.

318
00:23:32.039 --> 00:23:39.240
It's completely in place for Doctor Who, a ratly old robot, and he even refers to K9, but totally in this story, it does something about it.

319
00:23:39.539 --> 00:23:54.059
I don't know, like, it, there's a lot in this story that does exactly what they wanted to do, but it still feels unsettling and there's a lot of, you know, do, there's a lot of tonal and thematic. contradictions in this story hugely.

320
00:23:54.119 --> 00:23:58.259
But yeah, I sort of gadget sort of encapsulates what I feel about this story.

321
00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:00.539
It completely does exactly what they want to do.

322
00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:06.240
I just don't know if I like it, is that like it's the right choice, but I don't kind of, Like it.

323
00:24:06.299 --> 00:24:06.660
It's weird.

324
00:24:07.019 --> 00:24:13.680
And coming back to it, it was less dark, just less visually dark than I had remembered from when I when I watched it.

325
00:24:13.740 --> 00:24:30.420
The station is actually a really bright, and obviously there's the really dark themes building, and then we'll get to the ending when we get to it, of course, but at that point, the 1st scenes establishing scenes where the doctor just arrives and announces that he's the doctor and they pretty much, it is pretty much like, oh, yeah, we're a base, we're under siege.

326
00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:31.079
Your Doctor Who?

327
00:24:31.140 --> 00:24:31.319
Right.

328
00:24:31.380 --> 00:24:33.660
Yeah, you better stay here and help us even though he doesn't want to.

329
00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:37.859
It's like everyone apart from him wants him to be the doctor in a bass under siege story.

330
00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:45.779
And that tension's there without it being made super dark and super gritty and no, this is a really dark one.

331
00:24:45.779 --> 00:24:51.900
So it's unsettling rather than being absolutely terrifying from the off, I thought.

332
00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:52.920
Yeah.

333
00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:59.880
Yeah, I mean, Russell said, um, said, uh, it's, there's, there's a lot of talk about it. story you can only do once.

334
00:24:59.940 --> 00:25:07.500
You know, he said it's like a like a total base under siege, but within that format, it's going absolutely mad.

335
00:25:07.500 --> 00:25:16.859
And he says, this story has a lot of, it says it put, this story has a lot of stresses and strains in it or, you know, which I think is, that's, that's really interesting.

336
00:25:16.920 --> 00:25:17.759
And there is a lot.

337
00:25:17.819 --> 00:25:21.180
This story is barely managing to contain itself.

338
00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:28.619
It's like it's got that weight of the series becoming about this one character's complete dominance.

339
00:25:28.619 --> 00:25:35.460
And how can this, how can the show cope when one character is as dominant as that over the entire history of the show?

340
00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:37.859
And his name's David Tennant, and he's playing the doctor.

341
00:25:37.859 --> 00:25:48.180
And the doctor is also the most powerful, and he's done what Tom Baker never did and had a run of stories with no companion, because, and, and, and at the time, that was annoying me so much.

342
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:51.839
And looking back, I'm like, okay, yeah, they were actually doing that deliberately and playing with it.

343
00:25:51.900 --> 00:25:57.299
But at the time I was, I was, I was, why is this show about the awesomeness of the doctor now?

344
00:25:57.359 --> 00:25:58.140
I don't want that.

345
00:25:58.200 --> 00:26:00.359
But then, but then this does.

346
00:26:00.420 --> 00:26:01.440
Well, this sort of addresses it.

347
00:26:01.500 --> 00:26:06.059
And then next week doesn't, but it's right in the heart of this episode.

348
00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:15.359
So, I mean, we've already had the show talking about what happens when the doctor doesn't have a companion in that 2nd Christmas special.

349
00:26:16.859 --> 00:26:19.200
So as early as that.

350
00:26:19.259 --> 00:26:34.079
And so this is the only, this story can only be done if there isn't a companion, because you would have Donna sort of puncturing him or telling him what to do or telling him to rein it in or something like that.

351
00:26:34.140 --> 00:26:41.460
Or he would be embarrassed to behave like that in front of, you know, Rose or Martha.

352
00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:50.099
And I love the way Adelaide just isn't remotely impressed by his shtick and doesn't even see it as her role to improve him in a way that Donna did.

353
00:26:50.460 --> 00:27:07.619
And I guess I wondered why they had that tension between Adelaide and Ed, and like, which is touched on right in his last words, as maybe having had, he says, you never could forgive me. is like, I think it's his last words, which is to just leave us to ponder.

354
00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:12.900
But, um, you know, maybe he left her cat out or something when they when they were launching.

355
00:27:13.019 --> 00:27:18.420
Um, he, um, but she's clean and she's not impressed by flashy guys.

356
00:27:18.420 --> 00:27:24.779
And so she's, and that sets her up as not being remotely, uh, impressed by the doctor's antics.

357
00:27:24.839 --> 00:27:33.599
And her performance, what I love about her performance in this is the way that every scene, her disdain for him, just grows, oh, it starts out as wariness and then it becomes disdain.

358
00:27:33.660 --> 00:27:40.500
And, and so she, um, um, she's absolutely on a path to that final scene, right from the beginning is, is Lindsay Duncan.

359
00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:45.240
And I think I know Helen Mirren was been put down as being the 1st choice.

360
00:27:45.299 --> 00:27:51.839
And that's why she's not Russian because Helen, is that I read that stuff because Helen Mirren was a Russian in 2010.

361
00:27:52.019 --> 00:27:57.660
They're like, oh, we better change this character and not have a Russian anymore. and then that just stayed even when they got Lindsay Duncan.

362
00:27:57.720 --> 00:28:00.599
But I couldn't imagine anyone doing it better than Lindsay Duncan does.

363
00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:02.579
She's one of the best guest styles we've ever had.

364
00:28:02.700 --> 00:28:07.799
And I don't, I don't like, do people still debate whether she counts as a companion just because her name's in the credits?

365
00:28:07.859 --> 00:28:09.539
I mean, she's not.

366
00:28:09.660 --> 00:28:14.279
She's someone who the doctor fleetingly tries to screw up her destiny and fails.

367
00:28:14.339 --> 00:28:16.799
That doesn't make her a companion, does it?

368
00:28:16.859 --> 00:28:17.400
Yeah.

369
00:28:17.460 --> 00:28:18.480
Asteroid's not a companion.

370
00:28:18.539 --> 00:28:20.519
Yeah, she doesn't take any of the boxes.

371
00:28:20.579 --> 00:28:22.500
Katerina is, but...

372
00:28:22.500 --> 00:28:25.680
She is absolutely incredible.

373
00:28:25.740 --> 00:28:35.160
And um, you know, I remember seeing her in Rome where she played um, Brutus's mother, um, and she was amazing in that.

374
00:28:35.220 --> 00:28:41.759
And then she's in that black mirror episode where she's Rory Kinnear's kind of chief of staff or something.

375
00:28:41.819 --> 00:28:43.140
Yeah, you know.

376
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:45.059
She's Rory Kinnears, Peter Capaldi.

377
00:28:45.119 --> 00:28:48.839
Yeah, and she is absolutely superb in that as well.

378
00:28:48.900 --> 00:28:57.359
That's a deeply upsetting episode, but everyone's playing it so incredibly straight and she's absolutely just marvellous in it.

379
00:28:57.480 --> 00:29:07.980
I hadn't seen Rome when this 1st was broadcast, but now having seen Rome, when the doctor says to Adelaide, imagine you were in Pompeii, I laugh.

380
00:29:13.980 --> 00:29:23.099
It's quite extraordinary how that amazing sequence where the doctor's walking away from the base and the comms are still open.

381
00:29:23.400 --> 00:29:28.500
And we've had earlier lines where basically the comms are open.

382
00:29:28.559 --> 00:29:32.339
You know, they don't have private comms channels, so they have to keep it clear.

383
00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:36.480
But, you know, I find I found myself thinking, why is he still listening?

384
00:29:36.539 --> 00:29:44.940
And then I remembered with a year before this, we've had silence in the library where it's like, can we just switch Mrs. Evangelistra off and it's like, no, show some respect.

385
00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:48.599
If you have left people to die, you are going to listen to their last words.

386
00:29:48.660 --> 00:29:50.460
And I think that's the idea here.

387
00:29:50.519 --> 00:30:05.819
And the extraordinary thing is, almost shot for shot, Daenerys Targaryen in the final episode of Game of Thrones, or 2nd last episode, has a similar kind of moment of, I'm hearing this stuff and I'm saying no.

388
00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:09.779
And that seems to be influenced by this.

389
00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:21.180
I'd be interested to know, if anyone knows of any antecedents to this, where a character just kind of does the the no more thing, because, you know, as much as it gives tenant an opportunity to gnash his teeth.

390
00:30:21.900 --> 00:30:38.160
I can always appreciate that buildup with this version of the character who, you know, we see when Rose has her face stolen and when he's drowning the Raknors, that he's never actually far away from going too far.

391
00:30:38.220 --> 00:30:48.599
And not having the companion here, he doesn't, usually it's the companion who says, but why can't we change history and he turns around and says, but well, the laws of time, et cetera, et cetera.

392
00:30:48.660 --> 00:30:53.819
He doesn't, it's not that he doesn't have someone to, to say that to him.

393
00:30:53.880 --> 00:30:55.980
He's got no reason to say it.

394
00:30:56.039 --> 00:30:57.359
Yeah.

395
00:30:57.420 --> 00:31:01.440
So it's kind of like he's probably in his in his head.

396
00:31:01.500 --> 00:31:04.920
He's going, okay, this is the moment where I have to explain why I can't change.

397
00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:07.500
There's no one here.

398
00:31:07.559 --> 00:31:08.099
Why?

399
00:31:08.220 --> 00:31:09.779
Actually, you know what?

400
00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:11.160
You know what?

401
00:31:11.220 --> 00:31:27.420
And that whole bit inside there reminds me of another thing from my childhood, um, there's an old anime called the genie family, um, from, I think, the 60s or 70s, um, late 60s.

402
00:31:27.480 --> 00:31:31.920
And when I was a kid, it was redubbed as a show called Bob in a Bottle.

403
00:31:31.980 --> 00:31:41.819
And it was about these genies and you have Bob, who was summoned by sneezing, and you had his daughter Yawna, who was summoned by yawning.

404
00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:44.519
They obviously ran out of names.

405
00:31:46.680 --> 00:31:48.779
How did you summon his father?

406
00:31:49.859 --> 00:31:52.680
I can't say because...

407
00:31:53.220 --> 00:32:00.779
But I remember the last episode because unlike, say, a lot of American or British animation.

408
00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:02.880
Japanese animes would finish.

409
00:32:02.940 --> 00:32:04.319
They would have a last episode.

410
00:32:04.380 --> 00:32:12.960
And in the last episode, basically genies after they've been in service for a certain period of time, have to go back to the genie world for a 1000 years, but they can only do that if they're back in their bottle.

411
00:32:13.019 --> 00:32:19.259
So his family, his human family that he lives with conspire, you know, we're not going to sneeze, we're not going to yawn over.

412
00:32:19.319 --> 00:32:21.960
And these sort of Rube Goldberg things happen.

413
00:32:22.019 --> 00:32:24.599
Like time is influencing things around Bowie Base.

414
00:32:24.660 --> 00:32:29.160
This Rube Goldberg kind of stuff happens to make the father sneeze and to make the kid yawn.

415
00:32:29.220 --> 00:32:35.519
And the kid is screaming at the end, no comeback, come back, come back as the bottle and his friends fly off.

416
00:32:35.579 --> 00:32:36.960
And that was the end of the show.

417
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:37.799
And I saw that at 10.

418
00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:38.759
Wow.

419
00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:41.579
And I was traumatised for weeks.

420
00:32:42.420 --> 00:32:49.259
And this creates the same feeling that time is kind of going, no, doctor, this is a terrible idea.

421
00:32:49.319 --> 00:32:49.799
Stop.

422
00:32:49.859 --> 00:32:51.180
And it's not time being cruel.

423
00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:54.059
You know, it's time going.

424
00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:59.519
Actually, this is going to eventually lead to all this good things that you've already told us about.

425
00:32:59.579 --> 00:33:00.599
Stop screwing it up.

426
00:33:01.140 --> 00:33:07.319
So we come to the point which is the thing that I really seriously don't like about the episode.

427
00:33:07.380 --> 00:33:14.460
Um, and, and it's, it's really the reason why I planted the dead edges this one out for me.

428
00:33:15.660 --> 00:33:25.200
It is the fact that the doctor doesn't have a proper reason not to save these people.

429
00:33:25.259 --> 00:33:36.900
And the doctor is someone who has always disregarded rules and prioritised people's welfare and safety over obedience to rules.

430
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:43.859
And there isn't really such a thing as a fixed point in time.

431
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:57.420
And so we have a made up science fiction moral principle and I find it impossible to identify in any way with the moral dilemma that the doctor finds himself in.

432
00:33:57.539 --> 00:34:04.140
And so, and the fact that we don't have anyone to explain it to.

433
00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:09.900
And so all we get are the pages from the BBC News website saying what will happen.

434
00:34:09.900 --> 00:34:16.320
Um, It just, it, It doesn't work for me, I think.

435
00:34:16.380 --> 00:34:33.659
And we talked about this in our Fires of Pompeii episode, that there is a problem with Doctor Who in history, and a thing that wrecks many, many historical stories is the fact that the doctor can't change history.

436
00:34:33.719 --> 00:34:41.340
And that's a terrible imposition which heaps of, you know, producers have avoided in the past by just not doing historicals or whatever.

437
00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:45.719
So you have the doctor and he can't do anything.

438
00:34:45.780 --> 00:34:48.239
We're imposing that restriction.

439
00:34:48.300 --> 00:35:00.239
As you said before, Pete, we're imposing that restriction of having a historical but setting it in the future and saying that this is something that the doctor can't change.

440
00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:07.739
And it's not entirely clear to me whether whether it is just a moral constraint or it is a sort of time related constraint.

441
00:35:07.800 --> 00:35:11.039
What you were saying before, Brendan, if the doctor tries.

442
00:35:11.099 --> 00:35:21.659
There's a line saying that if the doctor tries to change this, he ends up responsible for causing it to happen as happened in Pompeii, but that doesn't seem to be quite what happens here.

443
00:35:21.719 --> 00:35:28.860
And so him agonising over that decision, just, it doesn't quite work for me, I think.

444
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:47.159
Oh, the show's always tried to have it both ways and particularly in this era with the idea of some one week, someone will say there's no such thing as little people and everybody's important and then the next week it's, uh, oh, well, yeah. like in yeah, in Pfiz of Pompeii. why don't he save those people because Donna cried to stop Donna crying.

445
00:35:47.219 --> 00:36:05.099
He didn't save their next door neighbours or the cleaners and it was like because she Yeah, that you, I guess it just doesn't, it won't work if we dig too, too deep into that or why he didn't just take everyone from Bower Base and fly them off into space and let them run a space freezer centre together and just tell everyone.

446
00:36:05.159 --> 00:36:08.400
They could have gone to the planet Kolkakron and kept the gravis company.

447
00:36:08.460 --> 00:36:27.059
And yet, while viewing it, I find, I still find that more satisfying than what we get than the, you know, the time mods are all hiding in a bottle, pretending to be dead and sort of work around the, the, um, that does, and everybody lives work around, I suppose.

448
00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:27.539
Yeah.

449
00:36:27.539 --> 00:36:31.619
Maybe I was, I was, I was brutalised by Eric Saywood when I was a, when I was a...

450
00:36:31.619 --> 00:36:33.840
We all were.

451
00:36:37.380 --> 00:36:48.539
I think it comes in the fact that, you know, time travel is a paradox and so you're going to end up in a point where you do have to gloss over it because it just doesn't, it just doesn't work.

452
00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:50.400
You cannot think that too far.

453
00:36:50.460 --> 00:36:52.739
So I think I think it's just rooted in that.

454
00:36:52.800 --> 00:37:09.599
And I think the program is now so popular and so successful that the actual production of the program and the story itself is becoming so married, as Pete said, David Tennant and the doctor is hard to distinguish either of them now, who we're celebrating and worshipping.

455
00:37:10.380 --> 00:37:12.239
And so...

456
00:37:12.360 --> 00:37:15.780
Basically, he should have regenerated the end of Journey's end.

457
00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:17.219
That was the end of the 10th doctor.

458
00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:19.079
It's the best ending. could possibly have.

459
00:37:19.139 --> 00:37:20.820
So we're on borrowed time.

460
00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:23.519
So we've already pushed way beyond.

461
00:37:23.579 --> 00:37:27.239
We've sort of stepped outside the program and we're stretching it and pushing it.

462
00:37:27.300 --> 00:37:29.760
And Russell did say, you know, this program has stresses and strange.

463
00:37:29.820 --> 00:37:31.500
It pushes and it tests you.

464
00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:38.880
So this is a program about, Too much of a good thing. and going too far and the program itself has gone too fast.

465
00:37:38.940 --> 00:37:40.500
So this story has gone way too far.

466
00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:42.239
He shouldn't even be here. should have regenerated.

467
00:37:42.300 --> 00:37:48.059
So it is pushing that that paradox thing we normally gloss over by either fix or flux.

468
00:37:48.119 --> 00:37:49.920
We've now kind of pushed beyond that.

469
00:37:49.980 --> 00:37:51.840
So yeah, everything in it.

470
00:37:51.900 --> 00:37:55.800
It's like this story does everything they wanted it to do.

471
00:37:55.860 --> 00:37:57.420
It's just like, should they have done it?

472
00:37:57.420 --> 00:37:58.800
is sort of the question.

473
00:37:58.860 --> 00:38:01.619
And even, and it's seeded right throughout the story.

474
00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:03.300
I mean, the whole story is waters on Mars.

475
00:38:03.360 --> 00:38:06.239
It's about humanity trying to find water.

476
00:38:06.300 --> 00:38:07.559
Well, you got it.

477
00:38:07.619 --> 00:38:10.079
You found water, your cup runneth over.

478
00:38:10.139 --> 00:38:18.059
You know, it's just like, it says, yeah, too much of a good thing and it's, it's, every level of this story is just about going too far.

479
00:38:18.119 --> 00:38:30.000
And it's a really successful, I think, an accurate, uh, well-built, intentional story of what happens when you go too far, whether you go too far in a monster effect, or, you know, all of these things.

480
00:38:30.059 --> 00:38:32.940
And just the question is whether you should or shouldn't.

481
00:38:33.000 --> 00:38:41.699
And it's really clever because actually that's, you know, the form and content marry up to this philosophical question of like, should you go, how much of a good thing should you have?

482
00:38:41.820 --> 00:38:44.400
Um, So I think that's why it breaks.

483
00:38:44.460 --> 00:38:48.420
I think it's, you like, so I can see why you don't like it.

484
00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:51.840
So you're like, no, no, no, this has just gone too far and it's like, yeah, that's what they were doing.

485
00:38:52.019 --> 00:38:54.179
Is that a good thing or not?

486
00:38:54.239 --> 00:38:55.500
Should they have done?

487
00:38:55.619 --> 00:38:56.159
Do they have the right?

488
00:38:57.119 --> 00:39:04.559
But I also I also sort of expect Russell to create a sort of moral dilemma that I can in some way sympathise with, you know?

489
00:39:04.619 --> 00:39:16.500
You know the end of Journey's End where Rose gets dumped back in her parallel universe with a cloned copy of her soulmate and heart's desire?

490
00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:21.659
And you kind of think, I have literally no way of knowing how to feel about this.

491
00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:22.559
You know what I mean?

492
00:39:22.559 --> 00:39:23.760
Like, I don't know.

493
00:39:23.820 --> 00:39:24.539
Why is that good?

494
00:39:24.599 --> 00:39:26.159
It's impossible to tell.

495
00:39:26.219 --> 00:39:27.059
Do you know what I mean?

496
00:39:27.179 --> 00:39:33.539
And I think I think even Russell himself in the writer's Tale might say something about his sort of dissatisfaction with that.

497
00:39:34.260 --> 00:39:40.260
Here, it's kind of like, I don't know what the analogue is.

498
00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:41.280
Do you know what I mean?

499
00:39:41.340 --> 00:39:47.579
Shouldn't I really be rooting for the doctor to just say, oh, you know, screw it, I'm saving these people, you know, whatever.

500
00:39:47.639 --> 00:39:51.780
It's kind of his Tom, it's his Tom Baker with holding the key to time moment, isn't it?

501
00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:52.440
Maybe.

502
00:39:52.500 --> 00:39:55.320
Uh, that's what it reminds me of.

503
00:39:55.320 --> 00:40:00.840
The, um, there's that split 2nd where Tom does his goofy face and says he could rule the entire universe.

504
00:40:00.900 --> 00:40:04.320
So actually maybe we shouldn't have bothered having this season at all.

505
00:40:06.780 --> 00:40:09.599
But there's an arc.

506
00:40:09.659 --> 00:40:13.079
But he's going to go around saving people he's not allowed to save.

507
00:40:13.139 --> 00:40:13.920
Do you know what I mean?

508
00:40:13.980 --> 00:40:16.260
That doesn't seem all that threatening or out of control.

509
00:40:16.320 --> 00:40:19.380
And it's certainly basically what he does every story.

510
00:40:19.440 --> 00:40:24.360
But he's got the added pressure now of some random woman on a bus telling him someone would knock 4 times.

511
00:40:24.420 --> 00:40:25.800
That would freak me out.

512
00:40:25.800 --> 00:40:41.460
I mean, I also think for a long-term viewer seeing this, we're invited to empathise with Adelaide.

513
00:40:41.519 --> 00:40:47.940
So when, you know, the doctor is controlling gadget and and, and again, showing his teeth and what have you.

514
00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:56.039
And we're kind of getting Murraygold's triumph music playing, but then we cut to Lindsay Duncan, just shaking her head, going, no.

515
00:40:56.099 --> 00:41:00.539
So that it's for, you know, for once it's not Marigold's music telling us how to feel.

516
00:41:00.599 --> 00:41:03.300
It's an actual performance telling us how to play.

517
00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:18.179
But I think the other thing for a long-term viewer is way back in series one, when Rose saves Pete from the car, she actually says to the doctor, so it's okay when we go to other times and places and save people, but not when it's me saving my dad.

518
00:41:18.239 --> 00:41:33.780
And this is kind of a further comment on that conversation and to kind of show us the consequences of that because When Pete is saved and he's not meant to be saved, he sacrifices himself for the greater good.

519
00:41:33.960 --> 00:41:40.800
In a more tangible way than we see Adelaide here because, you know, there's no immediate threat to Adelaide's survival.

520
00:41:40.860 --> 00:41:51.000
The threat is 50 years down the line when her daughter does or does not take, you know, the Enterprise NXO one on a mission and hit the Zin deal.

521
00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:54.780
Sorry, watch lower deck one.

522
00:41:55.980 --> 00:42:03.900
But to me, and I think it's because I'm a bit more canon obsessed than you are, Nathan.

523
00:42:03.960 --> 00:42:09.239
I do enjoy the moral dilemma here and I can buy into it.

524
00:42:10.679 --> 00:42:15.360
But it makes me kind of feel this story the way I feel about, 1st of all, the caves of Andrazani.

525
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:19.920
And it's, it's, and as Russell says about this, you can't do this every week.

526
00:42:19.980 --> 00:42:22.619
No, you could not have this story every week.

527
00:42:22.679 --> 00:42:24.000
It would be too bleak and too depressing.

528
00:42:24.059 --> 00:42:30.300
The other thing that makes me think of is earth shock because a lot of this story doesn't really make sense on a 2nd viewing.

529
00:42:31.500 --> 00:42:38.820
You know, it's kind of like the rocket blows up and Maggie goes and screams at the iceberg and it starts breaking up as well.

530
00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:41.760
And it's like, okay, so what's the plan here now, you've lost the rocket, actually?

531
00:42:41.820 --> 00:42:45.539
Like, I don't care. love that scene.

532
00:42:45.780 --> 00:42:47.579
Don't get me wrong.

533
00:42:47.639 --> 00:42:49.019
But this is the thing.

534
00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:54.360
On 1st viewing, I'm like, yeah, yeah, scream at that ice and break it.

535
00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:55.079
Okay.

536
00:42:55.440 --> 00:43:00.420
But yeah, this time around, we were all hoping for a little green claw to come out, weren't we?

537
00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:02.219
green pincer.

538
00:43:03.420 --> 00:43:11.219
Actually, yeah, there is that there is kind of that scene earlier where it's like the doctor saying, you know, there used to be Martians here, did they?

539
00:43:11.280 --> 00:43:12.059
Are we going to see them?

540
00:43:12.119 --> 00:43:12.300
No.

541
00:43:13.260 --> 00:43:15.420
Give it a few years.

542
00:43:15.480 --> 00:43:17.039
Give it a few years.

543
00:43:17.099 --> 00:43:18.000
Gatus will bring them back.

544
00:43:18.059 --> 00:43:22.980
I love the flashback to Adelaide as a child looking at the Dalek.

545
00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:27.300
Yes, which is kind of, I think, reconditioned and lifted from Battlestar Galactica.

546
00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:31.679
Not a child element, but without wanting to spoil a Battlestar Galactica.

547
00:43:31.739 --> 00:43:40.199
There a bit in Battles, I go back to where someone looks something that's about to kill them in the eye and then it goes away and it turns out to be their destiny. being the factor.

548
00:43:40.260 --> 00:43:47.699
And watching that now, I think, oh, for a kid who had watched, all right, it wasn't actually, it wasn't all that long ago.

549
00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:49.980
But if you were a kid who'd watched Journey's End.

550
00:43:50.039 --> 00:43:52.380
And then a little while later, you're watching this.

551
00:43:52.440 --> 00:43:59.639
It's uh, it must be, it must have sort of put them in her shoes of flashing back to that story from, from the, from the previous season.

552
00:43:59.699 --> 00:44:01.559
But I just really like that.

553
00:44:01.739 --> 00:44:13.619
I think too, the fact that it's set only 50 years in the future, when the kid who you're talking about, Pete, can still expect to be alive.

554
00:44:13.739 --> 00:44:18.119
I think that's that's actually really terribly cool.

555
00:44:19.079 --> 00:44:27.840
And so one of the things that does work for me is linking what's happening here to what happens to the future of humanity.

556
00:44:27.900 --> 00:44:29.940
You know, like I don't care about cannon, whatever.

557
00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:52.800
But I love the idea that, you know, we start with Bowie base one and then a couple of generations down the line, we're doing light speed and then we're heading out into the galaxy and it gives Russell a chance to put his Russell spin on that, that that is the result of, um, you know, human ingenuity and people being inspired and all sorts of things like that.

558
00:44:52.860 --> 00:45:02.880
And that an extraordinary woman who's so obviously an extraordinary person, when we see her in action, that she's kind of the start of all that.

559
00:45:02.940 --> 00:45:05.340
That's it's really interesting.

560
00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:09.960
I think it depends on what you think about humanity, whether that's a good thing or not.

561
00:45:10.019 --> 00:45:13.800
Like, I personally think, you know, this, okay, here we go.

562
00:45:13.860 --> 00:45:17.400
But, I mean, actually, pro or anti, non-balance.

563
00:45:17.460 --> 00:45:27.780
Well, frankly, Amanti, I actually think the real, you know, this race, you know, obviously the earth is getting is, you know, we've we've destroyed that and it's now sort of the race against time.

564
00:45:27.840 --> 00:45:30.659
It's, oh, can we colonise other planets?

565
00:45:30.719 --> 00:45:33.960
You know, can we make life sustainable so humans can go on?

566
00:45:34.019 --> 00:45:35.639
And I sort of think the race is the other way.

567
00:45:35.699 --> 00:45:40.739
I just think, come on, it's time, like Earth has had its time, most people, we people have had our time.

568
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:44.099
I think the worst thing that happened is that we go spreading it, spreading out everywhere.

569
00:45:44.159 --> 00:45:51.239
And it's touched on in this. is like, you know, she she refers to the Adelaide refers to the oil wars and and the humans on the verge of extinction.

570
00:45:51.300 --> 00:45:51.539
Yeah.

571
00:45:51.599 --> 00:45:53.699
Yeah, humanity's on the verge of extinction.

572
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:55.079
And again, it's a story.

573
00:45:55.079 --> 00:45:57.900
It's starting in 2020. starting in 2020.

574
00:45:58.079 --> 00:45:58.559
Yeah, yeah.

575
00:45:58.619 --> 00:45:59.639
She said 40 years.

576
00:46:00.960 --> 00:46:02.820
And guess what, boys and girls?

577
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:05.039
Right here, right now, it's oil wars.

578
00:46:05.099 --> 00:46:05.579
Let's do it.

579
00:46:05.820 --> 00:46:12.539
But again, it's that theme of things going too far and living past their time and it's like, should they or not?

580
00:46:12.599 --> 00:46:14.940
And, and yeah, humanity, where the...

581
00:46:14.940 --> 00:46:21.059
You know, like, uh, Nathan, you say you feel, you know, what, of course, there's no question here.

582
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:21.960
Of course you save them.

583
00:46:22.019 --> 00:46:32.699
Of course you save, you know, mind you, then again, it's a weird loop because if you save them, then you actually stop the human race in a way because it's a granddaughter that goes out and saves them.

584
00:46:32.760 --> 00:46:35.880
So I would say in this case, yes, save them short term.

585
00:46:35.940 --> 00:46:38.159
No, don't save the humans long term.

586
00:46:38.219 --> 00:46:46.019
But this is, but this very much depends on, this depends on where you're coming from in your life choice is an emotional state.

587
00:46:46.079 --> 00:47:00.960
So it's kind of, but it does have that, you know, that the whole the setting of the botanic gardens in Wales they use, those biodomes just make you think of silent running, that, you know, the movie of just them trying to keep a little garden of Eden going way past, you know, when it should.

588
00:47:01.019 --> 00:47:04.980
So yeah, this question of whether humanity should keep going or not.

589
00:47:05.099 --> 00:47:07.559
Should be saved or not is, yeah.

590
00:47:07.619 --> 00:47:10.260
It does put it square in your lap.

591
00:47:10.320 --> 00:47:15.840
Well, I don't know that I want to leave in a universe where the invisible enemy didn't happen.

592
00:47:15.900 --> 00:47:16.679
So.

593
00:47:17.880 --> 00:47:21.000
And this, and this takes me back. mean, 2009.

594
00:47:21.119 --> 00:47:32.039
It was just like the sort of tail end of the whole cool Britannia era where you could stick Union Jacks on things and they made you think of Kitch 60s revivalism rather than hating foreigners and it was a nice little period.

595
00:47:32.099 --> 00:47:36.179
And having the bass lames after David Bowie was good.

596
00:47:36.239 --> 00:47:40.199
Little ties to David Bowie there, Bowie ties are cool, I think.

597
00:47:40.260 --> 00:47:42.360
Oh dear.

598
00:47:42.360 --> 00:47:45.480
I'd written that one down.

599
00:47:46.500 --> 00:47:48.960
It was funnier in my head as well.

600
00:48:01.079 --> 00:48:16.800
Just going back to the Dalek briefly, and as we said, like a shout out to all these sort of sets, the graves they're dancing on in terms of like the base being the sort of control centre of the base is the old torchwood hub that they blew up last last season.

601
00:48:16.860 --> 00:48:19.380
It's all based on that now.

602
00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:20.340
It's now Bowie Bay.

603
00:48:20.400 --> 00:48:26.940
And of course, Sarah Jane's attic, of course, was the attic she was looking out on, which is so it's got this very weird sort of thing to it.

604
00:48:27.000 --> 00:48:29.280
At the time, I remember that dale came in.

605
00:48:29.340 --> 00:48:34.380
Because I think, I think Pete you said earlier, like where I was with this show is like, I have had enough of this.

606
00:48:34.380 --> 00:48:38.519
And so when the diet turned up, I was like, this just feels like a continuity reference too far.

607
00:48:38.579 --> 00:48:44.639
And it's funny, David's tenant said that he felt it was very bold to have a reference to Journey's end.

608
00:48:44.699 --> 00:48:47.340
He's like, wow, that's a really bold reference.

609
00:48:47.400 --> 00:48:50.099
I was like, wow, stick around for the next 10 years.

610
00:48:51.420 --> 00:48:56.280
But then Russell Russell's like, well, no, actually, we were getting over 100 million.

611
00:48:56.340 --> 00:48:57.659
Yeah, people are going to remember it.

612
00:48:57.780 --> 00:48:58.800
Yeah.

613
00:48:58.860 --> 00:49:00.840
And it's yeah, it's...

614
00:49:00.960 --> 00:49:04.500
It to me, it all just comes down to this thing is, is...

615
00:49:04.500 --> 00:49:16.019
And also, I think I've been more forgiving watching it this time around because of course, the show itself, going this far, doing this extra lap. was like, I kind of see, I totally see why they did it.

616
00:49:16.079 --> 00:49:17.760
It's so insanely popular.

617
00:49:17.820 --> 00:49:26.099
I mean, I watched, I just rewatched the, when Dave Tennant was announcing his leaving, which I found nauseating at the time.

618
00:49:26.099 --> 00:49:28.019
And if you watch it now, it's pretty for long.

619
00:49:28.079 --> 00:49:33.119
So it was the, and that just, like, briefly, it's national television awards, 2008.

620
00:49:33.300 --> 00:49:35.940
He winning award round standing drama performance.

621
00:49:36.059 --> 00:49:44.519
He can't be there, of course, because he's in the middle of what was in theatrical industries known as Space Hamlet, because it had Patrick Stewart and David Tennant in it.

622
00:49:44.579 --> 00:49:58.679
And he's there and he's got and he's in the interval of giving his award-winning Hamlet, just giving this simultaneously, accepting his outstanding drama award and handing in his resignation and announcing his resignation.

623
00:49:58.739 --> 00:49:59.940
It's kind of crazy.

624
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:05.880
And just to make it even more insane, he's got 2 of his mates from the production dressed in royal guards behind him.

625
00:50:05.940 --> 00:50:08.280
So it looks like a royal dress.

626
00:50:08.340 --> 00:50:11.639
And if you hear a very gold on a little caffio.

627
00:50:11.699 --> 00:50:20.039
I mean, it may as well be, at least it would drown out the sound of the screaming girls and it's like, it's really, no, it's genuinely remarkable.

628
00:50:20.099 --> 00:50:27.000
I was like, I don't know who was on the guest list for that national TV awards, but honestly, the tickets are like, it's a 3rd daughter's in there.

629
00:50:27.059 --> 00:50:31.980
It's like, it's really big like rock star screaming when he's on, kid shouting out.

630
00:50:32.039 --> 00:50:35.280
We love you, David, and it's like the 2nd he appears, everyone's screaming.

631
00:50:35.340 --> 00:50:51.360
And when he says, oh, but then I will be back, but it's going to be my last, you know, the sound of a 1000000 girls' hearts breaking around boobing and, you know, it's easy to forget how insanely popular this show was and how successful they were and how Russell must have felt and how David must have felt.

632
00:50:51.420 --> 00:50:54.300
And of course, the BBC would have just gone more, more, more.

633
00:50:54.360 --> 00:50:59.760
The question was at the time, could Doctor Who survive without David Tennant?

634
00:50:59.820 --> 00:51:08.280
Now that all drove me nuts at the time because he is genuinely, I'm not being contrarian about this, but he's genuinely my least favourite doctor, genuinely.

635
00:51:08.340 --> 00:51:16.380
Like, so, but I watching this time, I was like, no, I mean, I can totally see why they went too far in inverted commas.

636
00:51:16.440 --> 00:51:17.940
They were absolute like gadget.

637
00:51:18.059 --> 00:51:19.139
They were driving this car.

638
00:51:19.199 --> 00:51:20.880
They were like, solid, we're going on this thing.

639
00:51:20.940 --> 00:51:22.260
Let's put the foot down and burn everything.

640
00:51:22.320 --> 00:51:25.139
So I can totally see why they did it.

641
00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:27.719
It's just a question of whether they should have done or not.

642
00:51:27.960 --> 00:51:31.920
To my taste, to just say, I would have loved it to end at Journey's end.

643
00:51:31.980 --> 00:51:33.480
I think the runaway bride.

644
00:51:33.539 --> 00:51:37.440
I think you need someone to stop you and that shot of him destroying a monster.

645
00:51:37.500 --> 00:51:38.219
I got it.

646
00:51:38.280 --> 00:51:39.119
I totally got it.

647
00:51:39.179 --> 00:51:40.920
I know we know what happens when he goes too far.

648
00:51:40.980 --> 00:51:42.659
Seen he's going to stop you.

649
00:51:42.719 --> 00:51:44.460
So I didn't really need to see this personally.

650
00:51:44.579 --> 00:51:50.460
But it is worth saying that most people wanted to see this and much, much more.

651
00:51:50.940 --> 00:51:58.199
And yeah, when it came to, I don't want to go, I remember I was shouting at the screen like Patty Stone.

652
00:51:58.260 --> 00:51:59.820
Oh for God's sake, just die.

653
00:52:01.199 --> 00:52:03.239
Is Todd here?

654
00:52:04.559 --> 00:52:06.119
Oh, dear.

655
00:52:06.179 --> 00:52:06.900
Yeah.

656
00:52:06.960 --> 00:52:07.619
Oh, yikes.

657
00:52:07.679 --> 00:52:10.380
And then, of course, he comes back in the anniversary and says, I don't want to go.

658
00:52:10.440 --> 00:52:13.920
And now he's back as a Time Lord victorious, and I'm stepping away from that there.

659
00:52:13.980 --> 00:52:20.579
So, broadly speaking, like generously, it's like this whole, you know, should this whole thing have happened?

660
00:52:20.639 --> 00:52:22.139
should Should this?

661
00:52:22.199 --> 00:52:28.139
I mean, it's really clever, the way they've married this story to what was going on in the production of, and going on in Doctor Who?

662
00:52:28.199 --> 00:52:29.579
Should Doctor Who go this far?

663
00:52:29.639 --> 00:52:32.039
Um, I, it can.

664
00:52:32.039 --> 00:52:32.880
They do it well. well?

665
00:52:32.940 --> 00:52:35.039
I personally wouldn't have didn't want them to do it.

666
00:52:35.099 --> 00:52:37.079
I didn't need this victory lab, but...

667
00:52:37.079 --> 00:52:39.119
It depends on your point of view, I guess.

668
00:52:39.840 --> 00:52:56.099
I have to say that the other thing that I dislike about this episode is the opportunities it gives David to do teeth acting and hair acting and like I just find him really quite obnoxious at the end of this.

669
00:52:56.760 --> 00:52:59.760
Like really, really unlikeable.

670
00:52:59.820 --> 00:53:09.659
And I do think the one thing that he does is he's still tries to do the sort of funny doctor thing. you know, as part of that performance.

671
00:53:09.719 --> 00:53:22.739
When he comes in and he's all sort of hubris and ordering people around and teeth and shouting and stuff, there's still Doctor Who he lines that would be fun in another context but aren't.

672
00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:41.340
Yeah, but my aversion to it has really reduced over the years, I think, because now I see, I see him doing all that in this and I think, okay, he's, he's being the addict who's hitting another dose and another dose of being the doctor and it's not giving him the high and it's driving him to distraction and he's almost trying to, trying to fake it.

673
00:53:41.340 --> 00:53:47.340
Like, you know, the bit, so when he turns around and does go back to the base after Steffy's died, because he's like, okay, now she's dead.

674
00:53:47.400 --> 00:53:49.019
I'll go back and the rest of them are safe.

675
00:53:49.380 --> 00:53:53.940
It's possibly a stupid accident, wandering up and down the Danube.

676
00:53:54.599 --> 00:53:58.079
He goes back and he's like, yeah, I'm here.

677
00:53:58.139 --> 00:53:58.679
I'm gonna save you.

678
00:53:58.739 --> 00:54:00.239
And it always annoyed me when he did that.

679
00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:02.579
Because again, Doctor Who isn't a superhero.

680
00:54:02.579 --> 00:54:06.360
And I don't want the entire population of the earth to worship him.

681
00:54:06.420 --> 00:54:07.739
He should be slipping away quietly.

682
00:54:07.800 --> 00:54:10.679
But that's not that's the opposite of what this era was doing.

683
00:54:10.739 --> 00:54:15.059
But so when he does do that and it doesn't work for him and he just completely fails.

684
00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:27.239
I, I, I, I kind of think, I, I don't know, there's a degree of, it's, it's like his, his, like Pertwe's vanity coming back at the end to get him in Planet of the Spiders, I guess.

685
00:54:27.300 --> 00:54:30.599
Um, And fancy's the wrong word. you know what I mean?

686
00:54:30.659 --> 00:54:34.860
The idea the doctor's, well, his vanity and his quest for knowledge in Planet of the Spiders.

687
00:54:34.920 --> 00:54:41.219
And for the 10th doctor, it's this idea that he is a superhero and a god that does ultimately stop working for him.

688
00:54:41.280 --> 00:54:46.380
But then how much that actually comes into play in the actual regeneration story is another matter.

689
00:54:46.440 --> 00:54:49.199
But as a pre-finale story.

690
00:54:49.260 --> 00:54:51.000
I like what it does with that, yeah.

691
00:54:51.059 --> 00:54:53.820
Look, like Caves of Andrewzani.

692
00:54:53.880 --> 00:54:56.760
I think it's a wonderful piece of drama.

693
00:54:57.119 --> 00:55:06.539
And I think objectively, it's the best of the specials, but I still much prefer watching Planet of the Dead.

694
00:55:06.599 --> 00:55:09.059
Planet of the Dead is still my favourite because it's fun.

695
00:55:09.360 --> 00:55:16.320
End of time, started life as one episode, got stretched into 2 and really shouldn't have been.

696
00:55:16.860 --> 00:55:21.119
Um, whereas, whereas this, I'm just like, oh, yes, this is very worthy.

697
00:55:21.179 --> 00:55:21.960
This is very worthy.

698
00:55:22.019 --> 00:55:22.679
This is very worthy.

699
00:55:22.739 --> 00:55:24.360
Can I start having fun?

700
00:55:24.719 --> 00:55:34.800
And in fact, the doctor says what his mission is. is, you know, the doctor, doctor fun, you know, and well, it ties him with him failing.

701
00:55:34.860 --> 00:55:35.880
Yeah, yeah.

702
00:55:35.940 --> 00:55:37.440
No, he completely fails to do that.

703
00:55:37.500 --> 00:55:39.719
And I guess that conception of the doctor.

704
00:55:39.780 --> 00:55:41.699
Yeah, it's it's deliberate, isn't it?

705
00:55:41.760 --> 00:55:47.639
Like, you know, Russell knows that we're not going to be having fun accompanying the doctor by the end of this episode.

706
00:55:47.760 --> 00:55:50.280
It's very clever.

707
00:55:50.340 --> 00:56:01.260
But I grow weary and we get it in the Moffat era as well, where being the doctor is this sort of terrible burden and you know, like maybe I'll just kill myself or whatever.

708
00:56:01.320 --> 00:56:02.340
Do you know what I mean?

709
00:56:02.400 --> 00:56:05.280
Like I just, I dislike that enormously.

710
00:56:05.340 --> 00:56:06.659
And I like that.

711
00:56:06.659 --> 00:56:07.559
Am I having a good arc?

712
00:56:08.280 --> 00:56:12.960
But it's like the doctor being sad or the doctor being lonely.

713
00:56:13.019 --> 00:56:14.280
Do you know what I mean?

714
00:56:14.340 --> 00:56:15.239
All of that's great.

715
00:56:15.300 --> 00:56:22.980
I thought, you know, it gave the doctor some interiority that he kind of lacks more often than not in the in the classic series.

716
00:56:23.099 --> 00:56:31.679
But the doctor being Batman, you know, where he's a superhero, but only because terrible things have happened to him and he's having a miserable time.

717
00:56:31.739 --> 00:56:36.300
Can I just say, as a big fan of Batman 1966, not all Batman's.

718
00:56:36.360 --> 00:56:37.320
I'm just going to say that.

719
00:56:38.760 --> 00:56:42.960
See, I was actually going to point at you, Conrad, which is fun on audio.

720
00:56:43.019 --> 00:56:44.639
I picked it up.

721
00:56:44.639 --> 00:56:51.900
Because shortly before we reconnected, I watched all of Batman 66.

722
00:56:52.139 --> 00:56:55.800
And then while you were watching all of Batman 66, I was getting your opinions on it as well.

723
00:56:55.800 --> 00:57:03.719
And it's like, yeah, actually, Batman doesn't, you, just because you've been through those traumatic events doesn't mean you have to be grim, dark and horrible.

724
00:57:03.780 --> 00:57:17.219
But there are several times where the Adam West, Bruce Wayne, talks as much as he could in the 60s about Batman's tragic past, but specifically kind of says, that's why I do this charitable work.

725
00:57:17.280 --> 00:57:18.360
That's why I help these people.

726
00:57:18.420 --> 00:57:19.260
That's why I do this.

727
00:57:19.320 --> 00:57:26.579
Without big overblown, I am the lord of time and they and the laws of time will obey me, et cetera.

728
00:57:26.699 --> 00:57:44.820
Which does fit, which does fit the character, and at least at the end of this, the plot immediately repudiates that and says, no, this is a terrible idea, and we're not, we're not going to go down this path for at least another 11 years when we will do a multimedia spectacular based on it.

729
00:57:45.059 --> 00:57:46.860
It is ahead on.

730
00:57:46.920 --> 00:57:50.579
It's a head-on confrontation of it rather than just doing it, I think.

731
00:57:50.639 --> 00:57:51.119
Yeah.

732
00:57:51.599 --> 00:58:01.739
To me too, I think it is just the plot that makes him that calms him down rather than anything better than that.

733
00:58:01.800 --> 00:58:16.199
And I think that having Adelaide shoot herself in the face offscreen is not what I want very much for Doctor Who, and, you know, like, I think it's probably something that you would never do now.

734
00:58:17.219 --> 00:58:22.500
Well, I think it's part of the breaking of the format.

735
00:58:22.559 --> 00:58:23.219
Yeah.

736
00:58:23.219 --> 00:58:29.460
It's, they're taking it to a logical and horrible conclusion.

737
00:58:29.460 --> 00:58:36.840
And, you know, the basic thing they're breaking, 1st of all, is the doctor says people because, 1st of all, he says, well, no, I'm not going to save you.

738
00:58:36.900 --> 00:58:39.900
But then it's like, I'm going to save you, but it'll be bad.

739
00:58:39.960 --> 00:58:42.900
But it'll be, not only will it be bad, I'm doing it for me.

740
00:58:43.079 --> 00:58:48.059
Because as soon as everyone falls out of the Tartars, he's like, well, is no one going to thank me?

741
00:58:48.119 --> 00:58:49.079
Yeah, right.

742
00:58:49.139 --> 00:58:50.159
You know, I'm doing it.

743
00:58:50.219 --> 00:59:04.260
I'm doing it for me And then the final thing is, you know, the one person the doctor really wanted to say, because he pretty much says he doesn't care about Yuri and Mia. and he doesn't care about gadget.

744
00:59:04.380 --> 00:59:05.880
Oh, gadgets lost your signal.

745
00:59:05.940 --> 00:59:06.360
Oh, well.

746
00:59:06.719 --> 00:59:18.239
The one person he cares about kind of goes, actually, no, you're not, you're not in charge of me because when Adelaide sets that bomb, She is saying, I do this to save the earth and to save my family.

747
00:59:18.300 --> 00:59:21.840
And the doctor takes that away from her and she kind of goes, no.

748
00:59:21.900 --> 00:59:23.219
Yeah.

749
00:59:23.280 --> 00:59:24.599
You see, I don't buy that either.

750
00:59:24.659 --> 00:59:25.380
Do you know what I mean?

751
00:59:25.440 --> 00:59:28.739
She's just shooting herself because David Tennant's been a massive dick.

752
00:59:28.800 --> 00:59:33.900
Like, um, or how I've liked most of the 2 previous people.

753
00:59:35.699 --> 00:59:38.639
All sharp objects removed my house in 2009.

754
00:59:39.360 --> 00:59:41.760
You know, put away those teeth.

755
00:59:42.960 --> 00:59:45.420
But it is like, that's the thing.

756
00:59:45.480 --> 00:59:46.619
It is her absolutely.

757
00:59:46.679 --> 00:59:48.420
Yeah, she is in charge of her destiny.

758
00:59:48.480 --> 00:59:56.280
And, and, and she sees that, um, and, and every look on her face throughout the whole episode is Lindsay Duncan built building up to that moment.

759
00:59:56.340 --> 01:00:03.179
So that when you when you 1st watch it, it's a massive shock and when you rewatch it, she's absolutely building a path to it.

760
01:00:03.239 --> 01:00:11.039
And I think if it had the original ending of him just letting her live and then feeling a bit worried and guilty about it afterwards.

761
01:00:11.099 --> 01:00:13.500
I mean, because that's what it's for, isn't it?

762
01:00:13.559 --> 01:00:17.699
despite within the episode, it's to enable him to have that.

763
01:00:17.760 --> 01:00:18.719
Oh my god, what have I done?

764
01:00:18.780 --> 01:00:20.159
And they're rather over the top crash soon.

765
01:00:20.219 --> 01:00:23.940
And then there's a there's the crash zoom on him and the what have I done face?

766
01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:27.420
And then it flashes back to him hearing what she just said 20 seconds ago.

767
01:00:27.480 --> 01:00:28.860
You hear it.

768
01:00:28.860 --> 01:00:29.579
It's a different cake.

769
01:00:30.239 --> 01:00:31.860
I think so.

770
01:00:31.920 --> 01:00:36.179
Because that is that's possibly the only thing that I would say is a directorial slip.

771
01:00:36.239 --> 01:00:39.480
I don't know why he's having a flashback to something that he just heard to say 20 seconds earlier.

772
01:00:39.539 --> 01:00:41.280
Yeah, we were right there watching.

773
01:00:41.340 --> 01:00:45.539
But, um, It's all for that punch.

774
01:00:46.500 --> 01:01:00.539
I also think it's cheating because somehow bringing her back to Earth and having her inspire Susie in person after having escaped from Mars, that won't work.

775
01:01:00.599 --> 01:01:02.159
That'll wreck human history.

776
01:01:02.219 --> 01:01:13.440
But having Susie and her mother come over to Adelaide's house one day and find her sort of face down, you know, on the on the living room floor with a pool of blood brown ahead.

777
01:01:13.500 --> 01:01:15.420
But that is going to. inspire.

778
01:01:15.480 --> 01:01:16.260
Do you know what I mean?

779
01:01:16.320 --> 01:01:18.599
Like, it's just we're making the rules up at this point, whatever.

780
01:01:18.659 --> 01:01:22.619
I agree that's another thing that doesn't that doesn't quite work.

781
01:01:22.679 --> 01:01:24.420
Oh, the Reaper's turned up a letter.

782
01:01:24.480 --> 01:01:25.619
The reaper's turned up.

783
01:01:25.679 --> 01:01:29.639
I think maybe maybe there's a two-way com link.

784
01:01:29.699 --> 01:01:36.239
Video link, and the daughter and granddaughter have been watching all of these events, and as soon as Lindsay Dunk, grandma comes home, they shoot her.

785
01:01:36.900 --> 01:01:38.880
They were waiting.

786
01:01:38.880 --> 01:01:39.780
They've been watching it.

787
01:01:39.840 --> 01:01:42.300
Big David Tenant fans. no, you've got to go.

788
01:01:42.420 --> 01:01:44.219
No, maybe not.

789
01:01:44.280 --> 01:01:49.800
But it's weird though. it's like, again, it's worth saying, you know, that is an extreme moment in Doctor Who.

790
01:01:49.860 --> 01:01:50.880
It does break the program.

791
01:01:50.940 --> 01:01:52.139
It feels outside the program.

792
01:01:52.199 --> 01:01:53.400
It feels odd at the time.

793
01:01:53.460 --> 01:01:59.039
You know, thank goodness this thing wasn't the, it was gives me a Christmas special, originally called Red Christmas, which is a great title.

794
01:01:59.099 --> 01:02:14.039
But, um, it's good, like, it was, it was reaching to be a bullet, an old school pistol because deliberately, they wanted, Yeah, they were, I mean, deliberately with the whole Bowie base thing, they wanted it to be very NASA, very Star Trek, but kind of believable.

795
01:02:14.099 --> 01:02:17.159
So they actually didn't want too many whiz-bangy things.

796
01:02:17.219 --> 01:02:26.940
They actually didn't want laser guns, but the producer, again, one of the many, many things they turned down in this, they're like, no, no, no, no, we are not having anyone shooting themselves with a real gun.

797
01:02:27.000 --> 01:02:28.320
There'll be a laser zap.

798
01:02:28.380 --> 01:02:37.019
So it turns out that the, in fact, the person when you watch the production of this thing, the person who keeps turning down the monsters will keeps turning down there so it keeps turning down that.

799
01:02:37.079 --> 01:02:40.199
Even a huge stunt when there's that explosion.

800
01:02:40.260 --> 01:02:42.179
David was like, I'm doing this explosure.

801
01:02:42.239 --> 01:02:45.539
I'm doing this huge stunt and doing this huge stunt and they were like, no, I'm not having that.

802
01:02:45.599 --> 01:02:49.139
The when he says like the doctor should have someone to stop you.

803
01:02:49.199 --> 01:02:51.420
It appears to be Nicky Wilson, the producer.

804
01:02:51.480 --> 01:02:53.579
He seems to every turn.

805
01:02:53.639 --> 01:02:59.519
She seems to be like toning it down, but it is a, that's a very extraordinary moment.

806
01:02:59.579 --> 01:03:01.739
It does feel that just feels too far.

807
01:03:01.800 --> 01:03:04.079
It feels too much. to me.

808
01:03:04.139 --> 01:03:06.300
They do it again, they do it really well.

809
01:03:06.360 --> 01:03:07.440
They justify it within the story.

810
01:03:07.500 --> 01:03:09.420
It's a question of should they do it?

811
01:03:09.480 --> 01:03:11.099
In fact, I've got a moral question.

812
01:03:11.159 --> 01:03:12.960
I've got a moral dilemma for you all.

813
01:03:12.960 --> 01:03:20.639
Let's say we go back to Roast Lock Base 2009, let's say, 2008, when they're saying, okay, we've done Journeys End.

814
01:03:20.699 --> 01:03:21.659
This is amazing.

815
01:03:21.719 --> 01:03:22.380
David's going off.

816
01:03:22.440 --> 01:03:24.179
He's doing Hamlet, but he might get some time off.

817
01:03:24.239 --> 01:03:25.500
What do we do?

818
01:03:25.559 --> 01:03:28.980
Do we pull a plug or should we go, you know, and the BBC really wants us to do it?

819
01:03:29.039 --> 01:03:29.820
They're throwing money at us.

820
01:03:30.119 --> 01:03:35.699
Do you go back and stop them from making an extra year or do you let them do it?

821
01:03:35.760 --> 01:03:37.619
Come on, there's the 4 of us.

822
01:03:37.679 --> 01:03:39.059
Weve got to go back and we've got to make the decision.

823
01:03:39.119 --> 01:03:41.400
I agree with you, Conrad.

824
01:03:41.460 --> 01:03:46.440
I think that these don't work really well.

825
01:03:46.500 --> 01:03:50.579
And I think that Doctor Who as specials doesn't work really well.

826
01:03:50.639 --> 01:04:01.320
I like a season, I think making us wait 7 months for this and then having this be the thing that we have for the next month or so before we see the next thing.

827
01:04:01.380 --> 01:04:04.679
I don't think any of them work particularly well.

828
01:04:04.739 --> 01:04:09.719
But I love Doctor Who that fails in various ways.

829
01:04:09.780 --> 01:04:14.940
And, you know, we're going to get 4 episodes of FTE out of it.

830
01:04:15.000 --> 01:04:17.340
So I'm absolutely here.

831
01:04:17.400 --> 01:04:17.880
Wow.

832
01:04:17.880 --> 01:04:21.659
I think I think you're both mad.

833
01:04:21.719 --> 01:04:36.659
I think you're both mad and deranged and must be stopped because because this kept the momentum going and it did it did do when Moffatt was on the verge of launching his new sort of more very fairy tale version and that's not a majority of word for me.

834
01:04:36.780 --> 01:04:40.260
I've got lots of other pejorative words from Moffitt, but that's not one.

835
01:04:40.320 --> 01:04:44.880
And this new completely different style of Doctor Who was coming.

836
01:04:44.940 --> 01:05:00.480
And so to have these episodes where Russell T. Davis did everything in different directions to 200%, kept it very much in the public, I kept it really live and meant that from the 2nd from Tennant's actual departure to Matt Smith's arrival.

837
01:05:00.539 --> 01:05:01.199
It only a few weeks.

838
01:05:01.260 --> 01:05:07.619
It's only about, it's only about 10 weeks or something, isn't it, between the end of the tenant era and the 11th hour going out.

839
01:05:07.679 --> 01:05:14.340
And I think without that, you have one of these 18 months gaps that we've now got used to where just loses momentum from the public eye completely.

840
01:05:14.400 --> 01:05:22.559
Unless it's filled with Time Lord Victorious with lots of pictures of David Tennant and, you know, with in hero poses, with explosions.

841
01:05:22.619 --> 01:05:24.719
So don't worry, he's got us covered for quite some time.

842
01:05:24.780 --> 01:05:26.519
Brendan, it's all down.

843
01:05:26.579 --> 01:05:31.860
So, so, so, Pete, you're saying in this rose lock scenario, you're going to let them keep going.

844
01:05:32.039 --> 01:05:33.420
Yep.

845
01:05:33.539 --> 01:05:36.119
Okay, so me and so, okay.

846
01:05:36.179 --> 01:05:37.500
Brendan, it's all done to you, mate.

847
01:05:37.559 --> 01:05:38.820
What are you, you get the casting vote.

848
01:05:38.880 --> 01:05:39.179
What?

849
01:05:39.179 --> 01:05:41.099
I'm I'm going to play weather people.

850
01:05:41.940 --> 01:05:59.099
I'm going to say let them keep going for much the same reason as Pete does because these run of specials, it's, and we've seen this from Russell's subsequent work.

851
01:05:59.159 --> 01:06:05.159
Russell T. Davies has quite a dark streak and he's been keeping a lot of it at bay in Doctor Who.

852
01:06:05.219 --> 01:06:11.039
And this is the moment where instead he goes, okay, we know we've got a definite out.

853
01:06:11.099 --> 01:06:14.099
We know that the program will go on beyond us.

854
01:06:14.159 --> 01:06:15.960
Let's experiment.

855
01:06:16.019 --> 01:06:22.139
And Planet of the Dead is pretty Trad, you know, and pretty fun with it.

856
01:06:22.199 --> 01:06:23.460
Waters of Mars.

857
01:06:23.519 --> 01:06:31.860
It breaks the show in such a way that they know that even though they've got 2 more episodes to do, they're not going to do this again.

858
01:06:31.920 --> 01:06:35.579
End of time is a spectacular failure.

859
01:06:35.639 --> 01:06:46.079
And I mean that in terms of it is an impressive spectacle, it has good performances from Tennant and SIM and Bernard Crippens and pretty much everyone.

860
01:06:46.079 --> 01:06:49.679
And, you know, Tim, the Sexiest Bond alive, Timothy Dalton.

861
01:06:49.739 --> 01:06:50.219
I know.

862
01:06:50.219 --> 01:06:52.199
But it doesn't work.

863
01:06:52.199 --> 01:06:53.880
Shackable Barooza is the next bowl.

864
01:06:56.579 --> 01:06:58.500
Philip Latham.

865
01:06:59.519 --> 01:07:01.800
Hang on, where does he wrestle on?

866
01:07:01.920 --> 01:07:02.159
Sorry.

867
01:07:02.460 --> 01:07:04.380
He's wrestle on.

868
01:07:04.440 --> 01:07:06.360
I thought you was dark embarrassing.

869
01:07:06.420 --> 01:07:07.500
We can do them both.

870
01:07:07.619 --> 01:07:08.099
We could do both.

871
01:07:08.159 --> 01:07:10.559
It's well, it's okay now.

872
01:07:10.619 --> 01:07:12.840
According to Chris Chip, they're the same person. sure.

873
01:07:13.440 --> 01:07:32.880
It means that when Matt Smith avoids crashing into Big Ben and we have that beautiful 1st year with him and Karen Gillen, if, you know, if that had come off the back of series four, it just would have felt like more of the same.

874
01:07:33.900 --> 01:07:37.320
The specials give us a chance to kind of go...

875
01:07:37.320 --> 01:07:42.840
It's kind of like the doctor saying, the ice Warriors live here, you know, yeah, we're not going to show you them, though.

876
01:07:42.900 --> 01:07:43.860
This is what Doctor Who could be.

877
01:07:43.920 --> 01:07:45.179
Don't worry, we're not going to do that.

878
01:07:47.400 --> 01:07:56.820
I don't, I mean, I love series 5, but I think I might have loved it a little bit less if I hadn't been a bit a bit turned off by waters of miles on the end of time.

879
01:07:57.000 --> 01:07:59.039
So we are deadlocked.

880
01:07:59.099 --> 01:08:01.739
So we didlock, but, blah, blah, blah.

881
01:08:01.800 --> 01:08:08.219
This whole episode when it aired, there's a tribute, of course, at the end, the special is dedicated to Barry Letts.

882
01:08:08.280 --> 01:08:14.039
Now if anybody can get it and break this stalemate and have an opinion on it, we're like, what would Barry do?

883
01:08:14.099 --> 01:08:15.239
But what would he think?

884
01:08:15.300 --> 01:08:16.260
That's the big one.

885
01:08:17.100 --> 01:08:24.119
Yeah, I mean, the Barry, let's hear it is spectacular and lovely in all sorts of ways.

886
01:08:24.180 --> 01:08:29.220
But it's not that wildly experimental, though, is it?

887
01:08:29.279 --> 01:08:31.979
Yeah, he would, he would be saying...

888
01:08:31.979 --> 01:08:33.840
What would he be saying?

889
01:08:33.960 --> 01:08:37.260
I think he'd be with you, Conrad, to be honest.

890
01:08:37.500 --> 01:08:47.399
Because, you know, he very, very early on got hauled over the coals for being too scary and actually agreed and kind of went, okay, we'll pull it back a bit.

891
01:08:47.460 --> 01:09:04.140
And, you know, did so, but still managed to make scary Doctor Who with a strong moral direction because he often spoke about the morality of the program and how the doctor doesn't do certain things and, you know, he's the man who never would carry a gun unless you're an ogre on or a dinosaur.

892
01:09:06.779 --> 01:09:10.319
You know, but certainly.

893
01:09:11.220 --> 01:09:18.659
You know, is the only other instance of suicide by gun in Doctor Who image of the fender.

894
01:09:19.319 --> 01:09:20.939
Hmm.

895
01:09:21.000 --> 01:09:22.380
Maybe.

896
01:09:22.439 --> 01:09:24.359
Um, yeah, yeah.

897
01:09:24.420 --> 01:09:27.600
Yeah, I think I think we'll, I think we'll get one in the Capaldi era.

898
01:09:27.659 --> 01:09:33.600
I think there might be one in Mummy on the Orient Express, but previously, I think it's something Dr. was definitely shied away from.

899
01:09:33.659 --> 01:09:38.880
Yeah, of course, we had Donna blowing herself up a few weeks ago with her suicide vest.

900
01:09:38.939 --> 01:09:40.319
Oh, yeah.

901
01:09:40.380 --> 01:09:44.520
I mean, there's been a lot of people blow themselves up to, you know, sacrifice themselves for others and stuff.

902
01:09:44.579 --> 01:09:51.600
But I do think that the gun to the head thing is just a little bit kind of, you know, and she's not under threat.

903
01:09:51.659 --> 01:09:55.500
Nothing's going to happen to her if she if she doesn't do it.

904
01:09:55.560 --> 01:09:59.819
And so I just think, you know, yeah, it's unfortunate.

905
01:10:25.380 --> 01:10:28.739
Well, that's all we have time for, for now.

906
01:10:28.800 --> 01:10:35.579
We'll be back in the next few weeks to see what the Noble family has been getting up to in the end of time part one.

907
01:10:35.640 --> 01:10:51.000
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us at flights for entirety on Facebook, at FTE podcast on Twitter, and on our website, flights throughentirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger and Jody into Terror.

908
01:10:51.060 --> 01:10:53.159
Pete, where can people find you?

909
01:10:53.220 --> 01:11:01.380
Uh, I'm Prof underscore quite a mess on Twitter and I'll crop up sometimes on the lovely Trap one underscore podcast.

910
01:11:01.439 --> 01:11:03.779
And Conrad, where can people find you?

911
01:11:03.840 --> 01:11:10.380
Yeah, you can also find me on Twitter at Hair of the Hound underscore, and like Pete, I'm often on the trap one podcast.

912
01:11:10.500 --> 01:11:18.659
So until next time, Remember that the very best way to lose a few pounds is to condense all your oxygen membranes.

913
01:11:18.720 --> 01:11:19.979
I'm doing it now.

914
01:11:20.039 --> 01:11:22.920
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

915
01:11:22.979 --> 01:11:23.640
Good night.

916
01:11:23.699 --> 01:11:24.720
Good night.

917
01:11:24.779 --> 01:11:25.500
Good night.

918
01:11:25.560 --> 01:11:27.720
This never would have happened to Matt Damon.

919
01:11:30.779 --> 01:11:35.699
That was Flight 3 Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones, Pete Lambert, and Conrad Westmas.

920
01:11:35.760 --> 01:11:39.420
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings performance by Jane Orberg.

921
01:11:39.479 --> 01:11:45.600
This episode, Fix Or Flux, was recorded on the 11th of October 2020 and released on the 21st of November.

922
01:11:51.659 --> 01:11:58.079
Well, I don't know about you, but I'm planning to nip back in time to 1987 and persuade Bonnie Langford to stay on for another season.

923
01:11:58.140 --> 01:12:00.000
See you when I get back.

924
01:12:03.479 --> 01:12:05.399
What do we wanna do?

925
01:12:05.520 --> 01:12:10.199
I don't think we can go back to talking about things.

926
01:12:10.260 --> 01:12:11.159
Should we wind it up?

927
01:12:11.220 --> 01:12:11.760
Yeah.

928
01:12:13.199 --> 01:12:15.060
Oh, God.

929
01:12:15.119 --> 01:12:17.220
I just got a in that for my boss.

930
01:12:18.359 --> 01:12:22.920
I'm presuming I'm presuming this is probably going to be the tag.

931
01:12:22.979 --> 01:12:25.560
So something I noticed, which is totally frivolous.

932
01:12:25.859 --> 01:12:28.800
When Lindsay Duncan's name comes up.

933
01:12:28.920 --> 01:12:32.640
Lindsay and Duncan are not aligned with each other.

934
01:12:34.260 --> 01:12:36.960
I hope someone got fired for that.

935
01:12:37.380 --> 01:12:40.079
And someone's done...

936
01:12:40.079 --> 01:12:41.640
And someone's done...

937
01:12:41.640 --> 01:12:43.319
They had to go back and edit it.

938
01:12:44.340 --> 01:12:47.159
You can't bloody... not paying that much.

939
01:12:48.180 --> 01:12:54.420
And because it's my last episode of the RTD era, not on the end of time.

940
01:12:54.479 --> 01:13:03.060
I'd just like to say for the last time, the end credits vortex is not centred and it really annoys me.

941
01:13:04.020 --> 01:13:07.619
They could do it in 1974.

942
01:13:07.859 --> 01:13:10.020
What's your excuse, milk?

943
01:13:10.079 --> 01:13:12.239
What do you call yourselves?

944
01:13:12.420 --> 01:13:13.920
Wow.

945
01:13:13.979 --> 01:13:14.640
Wow.

946
01:13:14.699 --> 01:13:18.420
I didn't realise they'd been eating you away if it was 2005.

947
01:13:18.600 --> 01:13:20.039
Brandon, you've been doing this for way too long.

948
01:13:20.100 --> 01:13:21.239
No one should have this much power.

949
01:13:24.239 --> 01:13:27.479
I am the lord of peppermint chocolate.

950
01:13:27.479 --> 01:13:28.500
Will obey me.

951
01:13:28.560 --> 01:13:30.659
It'll stay off my goddamn hips.

952
01:13:30.720 --> 01:13:34.020
This is a shame that Adelaide didn't stay around for a couple more days.

953
01:13:34.079 --> 01:13:41.159
She could have watched the 96th anniversary, special of Doctor Who on BBC One on the 23rd, 21, whatever it was.

954
01:13:42.180 --> 01:13:49.680
Rod did rightly point out this morning that it would actually be his centenary because he was born in 1959.

955
01:13:50.220 --> 01:13:51.600
Wow.

956
01:13:51.600 --> 01:13:54.359
He also said, well, as credits were rolling.

957
01:13:54.420 --> 01:13:55.560
Well, that was just stupid, wasn't it?

958
01:13:55.619 --> 01:13:56.819
Like, why was it stupid?

959
01:13:56.880 --> 01:13:58.439
He said, well, I told you when we watched it last time.

960
01:13:58.500 --> 01:13:59.880
I said, darling, that was 2015.

961
01:14:00.119 --> 01:14:01.800
Can you just explain it to me again?

962
01:14:01.859 --> 01:14:11.399
And he's like, The science in Doctor Who. needs to be sensible because the science of the ship itself is not.

963
01:14:11.460 --> 01:14:13.319
So everything else needs to be sensible around it.

964
01:14:13.380 --> 01:14:15.840
You can accept the ship, but everything else needs to follow the rules.

965
01:14:15.899 --> 01:14:18.960
And, you know, I thought he was going to talk about time or time paradoxes.

966
01:14:18.960 --> 01:14:23.460
And he's like, they would not be able to produce that much water in that little time to get through the base.

967
01:14:25.199 --> 01:14:27.659
They were creating water.

968
01:14:27.720 --> 01:14:30.659
He's like, I get that they're creating water.

969
01:14:30.720 --> 01:14:31.859
But 1st of all, what from?

970
01:14:31.920 --> 01:14:43.319
But he's like, secondly, it's it's 10 feet of what, whatever it is. there's lots of lines about it. 10 feet of concrete that we brought here without being able to pack a couple of bikes.

971
01:14:43.380 --> 01:14:44.760
Do you know what I mean?

972
01:14:44.819 --> 01:14:47.100
Like, I was constantly worried about how they built it.

973
01:14:47.159 --> 01:14:56.100
You know, it did seem like they would have burnt up, you know, I don't know, half of the Western Hemisphere to just get there. anyway.

974
01:14:56.520 --> 01:14:58.979
All right, should we do the thing?

975
01:14:59.039 --> 01:15:01.020
We'll do the outro.

976
01:15:01.079 --> 01:15:06.420
I'll go, shall I throw to you and do you want to plug something or something?