Hello, welcome back for the 2nd half of William Hartnell's first
series.
I'm Brendan.
I'm Nathan.
And I'm Richard.
And you are listening to Flight through Entirety, the only Doctor
Who podcast where if you've had yours, you could have lent her
hers.
Billy Fluffs.
Just keep coming, darling.
See, they weren't fluffs.
They were carefully planned.
Carefully bluffed.
Definitely planted on the Chesterfield of reasonable comfort.
And speaking of carefully planned, we're going straight in with
that carefully planned masterpiece epic of the story, the keys of
marinace.
Now, it was my responsibility to do a lot of research and I
learned a fair amount about architecture and German expressionism
in preparation for this.
Silence from this corner of the podcast.
In preparation for this episode of the podcast.
This was my one.
This was allocated to me on the grounds that last episode I said
that I was the only person I knew who loved this story to death.
It is the story that does divide, if not conquer.
Well, Precisely.
And so I did a great deal of research into architecture and German
expressionist filmmaking.
And I found that really none of it helped at all. in any way with
an understanding of how this story gets a bit front bottom-y.
You know, I take it all on board.
And you're getting the explicit tag.
It is, however, a Rakoustic design.
Is it?
I love Mr. Kusik.
Especially the city of, um, is it morpheton, the city of
Morpheton?
dated some of those. worked for a lot of them.
So the idea here, um, is this is very different from, um, anything
that we've really seen this series.
I mean, the series do before.
This is our 2nd science fiction story.
So we've had the Daleks, we've got a 2nd size fiction story.
The motor science fiction story, though.
Well, that's just saying.
I don't feel it is.
There's a computer.
There's a big computer.
It's got a big thing that goes warp, warp, but it doesn't feel
science fiction to me.
But aliens.
So it's using, let's say it's using the, like, the tropes of
science fiction to tell it sort of fairly.
See, that's where we disagree.
I don't feel it's this story ever gets beyond drawing room 50
strong.
No, no, no, no.
It's good.
Let me prove it.
Okay, so, um, so we don't know what we're going to do yet.
We've done the Daleks that knocked them out of the park by
accident.
Do you know what I mean?
What are we going to do?
Terry Nation back.
We've got Ray Cucick back.
It should be note perfect.
And and I think it's better than people give it credit for.
And I think part of the reason is that the show hasn't sort of
betted down yet into, uh, Into stories.
Cheers.
It hasn't been it down into stories.
You know, the idea that, you know, now from the savages onwards
there are no individual episode titles. part one, part two, part
three.
And as fans, we all think of stories that way.
And so we think that it's the keys to Marinus and it's a six-part
story.
But of course, it isn't really that.
What it is, it's a series of one part stories, then a two-part
story, and then we go back for a sequel to the initial one part
story.
And so it's a little bit more like the 1st series of rebooted
Doctor Who, where there is kind of a link between all of the
episodes, but each episode is in a different place and has an
individual episode title.
And so, so, I actually think that however tiresome an individual
bit of it might be, it's over quite quickly.
Do you know what I mean?
And you're telling stories in 25?
Too many windows, too many revelations.
But you know, you're telling stories in 25 minutes and so they
never they never get bogged down.
Do you know what I mean?
And they tend to be quite simple and resolved in quite a simple
way.
And I think that's quite fun, you know?
Um, And everyone gets a week off and so you get sort of slightly
different regular cast each episode.
And I mean, it is sort of standard tiresome Terry Nation stuff
like in in the stuff on the on millennia. you know, where Ian's
charged with murder.
I think twice people inadvertently blurt out their plans.
And then I was watching something the other day where it was in a
Dalek master plan where someone inadvertently blurts out the fact
that like Maddic Chan inadvertently blurts something out, you know
and ruins his whole plan or something.
Um, You know, so it's all those sort of tiresome teen Asian things
but, but they're still not really tiresome yet.
You know, when we've sat through a few years of Blake 7 and
Destiny of the Daleks and stuff, we'll all be truly exhausted by
them.
But you're right.
They're still new.
They're still reasonably fresh.
And we have some amazing cast members.
We've got George Caluras, as straight from Awesome Wells Theatre
you know, worked with the wonderful Patrick Maguan and Mr. Wells
himself, as, you know, Jane Walker.
I was going to say, and they're redoubtable.
Fiona, you're redoubtable.
Francis DeWolf?
No, I have no idea who that is.
I saw the trapper.
Vasor, the rapey vasor.
It's so bizarre as well.
And this is kids TV.
Really, really early on.
It's like a lot of the times, people are rapey towards Barbara, and
it never towards super particular.
They're really creepily, so yeah.
There's a stack of it though.
Like she's going to be forcibly married or something.
Vasor is really chasing around that heart.
Yeah, there is no ambiguity in that scene at all.
No, there's not.
And when you go back to, say, an unearthly child.
At one point, Za sort of reaches out to her, but it's more like
you know, she's so clean and well presented.
You don't get the impression there that it's desire or anything.
It's curiosity.
The 1st woman who's met, he's met with dental hygiene.
Indeed.
He doesn't smell like a dead cow.
You know, they saw is so... that he treats Barbara worse than she
is treated by a caveman.
Doesn't that say at all?
If we're going on to the whole feminist politics of this 1st
season.
Women are really there as symbols of, you know, have not been to
not be raped.
The perils of Pauline thing, put the woman in a point of crisis so
that she'll appear to be vulnerable and therefore sexually
attractive.
It's pretty nasty.
But they do.
But then again, that's that's exactly what our culture was.
But in a way, and I think a lot of this could come down to Verity
Lambert, being such a strong woman in a male dominated industry.
Whenever Barbara is in a situation of peril like that, she doesn't
just wait to be rescued.
Like when Vasos chasing her around.
She throws a bowl full of steaming soup in his face.
You know, she doesn't, she is put in those stereotypical
situations.
But she tries to fight her out.
Inevitably, yes, she is rescued by Ian or another man.
So Altos.
With his little undies.
Yes, in the snow.
With his thighs.
It didn't worry me, the thighs in the snow.
Do you know what I mean?
He has to be awfully, awfully cold.
Well, Ian does have to rub his head.
Oh, yes, he does.
Which is a thoroughly unpleasant scene, of course.
Yeah, that was sarcasm.
But yeah, I mean, just getting back to Barbara.
It's kind of weird because you have this tension of, yes, she is
treated in a very sexist manner, but she responds in a very she
responds in a very strong manner that, unfortunately, is only
noticeable because of the way women are treated in adventure
programs.
But I guess, I guess I have to say that the thing is successful
because it, um, it presents some really striking and memorable
images, um, and the story sort of, I mean, you know, sort of
mostly nonsense, really, but, but, you know, the brains with eye
stalks.
I think that's fantastic.
Barbara smashes the brains with eye stalks.
Under Beljars, 40, 50 years before Futurama.
We have it first.
Yeah.
So, and and there's also um, someone is it Gaitus or someone who
says that their 1st memory of Doctor Who is the ice soldiers
waking up.
I think it is...
It's kind of lovely.
Yeah, yeah.
And again, just these sort of memorable images and they know how
to sort of make memorable images.
So the story might be a bit pants or a bit simplistic, although I
was I just was never bored because I knew that this bit would be
over with them, we'd be on...
It's a play for today, done as we would have seen it episodically
weekly, just as it was done in other, in many other means in many
other ways on BBC and ITV.
And I guess that's, it's blessing and for me, it's kind of cursed
that it's, it's so wonderful that it's showing the Doctor Who can
do anything and be anything you want through the medium of TV
showing us what TV is.
But it's also just kind of doing what other stations are doing
another time slots on the beat, but already.
It isn't massively inventive, but I think that's a problem this
season with the science fiction stories.
Like we essentially get 3 science fiction stories and we're
alternating between historical and science fiction.
And the 3 science fiction stories, none of them really totally
work.
And I think, I think eventually, you know, uh, that I'll find, you
know, menacing monsters and stuff for an important, a threatening
science, of a, of a science fiction story that works, as at work
in the Daleks.
There's no real threatening monsters in, um, uh, keys of marinas.
And again, sensorized don't have it either.
And so they struggle to find out exactly what they're for.
And like, I actually like the sense rights, as we'll discover when
we get to it, I like his, Mariners, I kind of like the Daleks, but
they're not, they're not what the show's eventually going to
settle on us.
Maybe not, but you see, I love sensor rights, I think.
I feel my part of that is that I feel really strong, that the
sensor rights can look dull to us now because it's such a trope
but that back then it was the 1st show, my belief, to give us the
template for a real Doctor Who SF story, and it does it in a way
the Daleks didn't do it.
Yeah, alien does not equal evil.
In a whole lot of other interesting things.
And and talking about the aliens in case of mariners, the board.
The big problem with the board.
The alien lord.
The alien board and Yartek, their leader.
Yacht indeed.
Is that, you know, they turn up at the Pyramid of Arbitan to take
control of the conscience.
And then the doctor and friends are sent off to find the keys.
And it's kind of like you would expect then the board to go after
them.
So you've got someone chasing them, which, of course, Terry Nation
will return to later in the 1965.
But it's kind of old that it doesn't have...
They just sort of, they sit there in the pyramid waiting for the
others to come back, which maybe the Black Guardian was involved.
No, you've got it there.
It's the passivity of the narrative.
This is not the how we know our characters to behave.
I can't decide.
I think I think the Vord don't pursue them because they belong to
episodes one and six, which are separate stories. and so they're
not into...
The board don't pursue them because there's some Freudian
archetype of some kinky, slippery, rubbery thing with handles on
the heads that weigh before the cybermen is.
I think they're actually one of the most sexually charged.
They are the sexually charged archetype of this season.
They are extraordinary.
Don't forget.
It's great in a hoodie.
I think Yante Yante looks great in the hoodie.
Oh, if you want to know how Yartik looks out of his hoodie, he
turns up in...
Sensorites with a lovely Billy Gray job and then under a lovely
hairdressing...
Wait, who is he?
John Censoro.
He's the mad astronaut. is John in censor rights kids.
We are going to get to that soon.
Don't forget, this is exact.
I find the vaard really interesting.
This is at the time, just before the perfumer scamblers, we later
discovered that Prince Philip, yeah, this can get cut.
There were guys standing around in wetsuits doing unspeakable
things, possibly whilst Doctor Who was being played.
Do you want me to redo that?
Well, just... under no circumstance.
No, I'll just cut it down to you referring to...
So, But all of this is true.
And I do think that they do represent some really kind of, they
were designed to make Toya Wilcox all wibbly inside.
Exactly.
She does find the sidemen's sex.
They're wrong on lots of levels.
They're really, they're disturbing and they're really sexually
charged.
And it's interesting when you consider that they want to destroy
the ordered society.
Don't they, though?
Of Marinus.
They...
I love them.
Yeah.
Well, when you look at it.
And the thing is, you kind of you kind of then meet the people
from all around mariners, and they're a bunch of wet fish.
Although the story does give us Doctor Who's 1st female villain.
Fiona Walker.
The Eternal Fiona Walker, all things.
Carla.
Yes, Carla.
All things shall soon be hers.
Yes, indeed.
And she, the thing is, she is easily the best guest artist in the
story.
Yes, season one.
She's going to go out there on a lean.
I think you have her.
Oh, we've got the Aztecs coming up next year.
Yeah, but that's...
Barbara being marvellous, not?
Sorry, it's still Fiona Walker?
Some female ghost.
She's it.
And the thing is, you know, she is given...
As much as I love keys of marinace, she is given not the best
material to work with, like it's quite cliche.
Which just shows how great she is with it. of a man's part, and
it's being given to a woman, and much like Kathy Gale, and we keep
referring to Kathy Gale, if you don't know who she is, Google.
Even more so, she's playing Dietrich in Witness for the
Prosecution. which we mentioned last week, the courtroom dramas
are based very much even the cutting scenes on Billy Wilder, the
great Billy Wilder, who gave us comedies such as Some Like It
Hot.
Yep.
A whole host of others.
Please Google him.
Those courtroom scenes, if you don't know witness for the
prosecution, Dietrich, Marlena Dietrich, and a Silk Fascinator
interestingly, has been pointed out by other critics, Billy's
performances, have been likened to hers, the way that he presents
the way that he reads his lines, certainly the way he works as
there was a whole school of acting at that time, that you work
with your eyes in cinema.
Keep it really simple, keep your face passive, let your eyes do
all of the work.
Billy definitely does this certainly in season one.
He follows a lot of Dietrich's tricks.
And, um, it's worth looking at, though, if you, if you love Maron
let's look at the scenes of, um, of hope of trail because Fiona
Walker is definitely lifting Dietrich's performance.
I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Terry Nation was lifting, you
know, the entire plot.
Romeoing us.
I believe that Billy and Marlena Dietrich actually wore the same
week for those scenes.
Well, there's a lot of, yeah, there's a lot.
It's not me saying it.
I read it elsewhere.
There's a lot of a lot of Billy's performances based on DJs.
Yes.
There's Detri...
Totally.
Really?
Dietrich built a secret train line from from Berlin to get the
Jews and the poofs and the actors out.
She was the one who put most who put most of the money up for
reviving this underground train line that was then buried.
And getting up, I'll look up the facts and I'll put it on the, put
it on the, on the page.
It's an extraordinary story.
She did some amazing things in Vaima, Germany, uh, post-fine my
Germany after the after Glass Ship.
She was a real hero to theatre all around the world and to actors
and her performances and her codifying her way of performing was
something that was looked at.
I'm not just throwing her in as a No, no, no, no, no, no.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah But Fiona Walker's performance is very much
Dietrich's in Witness for the Prosecution.
She's, I mean, it's apart from the fact that Fiona Walker is God's
gift. story.
And again, you know, another sort of rightly reviled story, Silver
Nemesis, she's fabulous.
Fighting words.
I love silver.
But we've got about 2 years before we do.
If any of you are still with us or indeed still alive when we get
there, yeah.
Not if you have to go to the doctor.
Okay, sorry, political reference.
So are we moving on?
Oh, no.
Oh, no, no, no, no.
Yes.
What did ding-aling?
What did rot say?
Nothing segment.
Nothing funny until the censor writes.
Okay, well, harsh criticism.
This is Adventures with the bloke in space, isn't it?
Well, the whole.
Oh, well, okay.
Shame on you, Roll.
His comments for keys of Marinus were interesting ideas such as
the acid C and subs to get through it.
Vord looked very alien, excellent story, 7 out of 10.
I really like I really like the bit where they're outside the
pyramid and people keep falling into the pyramid.
And it's like a magic door opens and then they're in the pyramid
and everyone else is wandering around outside the pyramid going
ooh, where's that other person gone?
And then they go in the pyramid.
Carry on marinace, really.
And following on from Ian's wonderful education of line, line of
Do you know who we still use the word hashish in English today
Susan?
is look at this wall.
There's no mortar.
It must have been built with tremendous accuracy.
And William Russell, by this point, is clearly just going, this is
terrible, terrible dialogue.
I'm going to have fun.
Look at this wall.
Do you think it was a throw into in the hashish thing?
This is important to point out.
This is, perhaps, this is this is the point where the Beatles are
starting to smoke cannabis. semi publicly.
Okay, they're done all of the Hamburg stuff, but this is the point
where they were being...
Yeah, yeah.
No, when this story went out.
This is the point where they were actually being shot smoking
reefers. kind of exciting kids.
I will say, though, in that scene...
We don't encourage the...
I will say, though, in that scene where Ian's getting terribly
excited about the pyramid construction, he is camper than the time
you played Ian.
Really?
That's very hard to believe.
For those of you who don't know, Nathan once played in Chesty Bond
I believe the name was, in a Doctor Who play called There's
Something About Magnus, the guy who drained me more on that
story.
Oh, really?
Do we have to have that?
Thankfully, we've just had the sound meaning we need to move on to
the Aztecs.
Ding, a link, ding.
Okay, so the Aztecs is mine as well.
Yeah, coincidence.
Well, this is one of the ones where what's not to love.
Oh my god.
No, no, no. like Seeds of Death, right?
In the...
I put the video on and then by halfway through episode 2 hours
always sort of doing the ironing or backing.
And like, I feel really terrible about it because the fan
consensuses that it's sort of terribly brilliant.
And so I'm doing it properly as I watch my way through the series
now.
And so I did sit down and I just watched it and I watched a couple
you know, watching 2 settings, paid proper attention to it.
And It has a lot going for it.
You know, it's beautifully designed.
It foregrounds Barbara, which is always a great idea.
It gives Barbara and Billy lots of time to interact and things.
There's all sorts of delightful things about it.
But, I still have to say that I don't quite get why it received
the fan adulation that it does receive and I'd be fascinated to
hear you 2 charming gentlemen.
Yes, it's very controversial.
Do you think?
trying to be cool.
I'm trying to not be a dick about it.
No, no, no, you're being fine.
But it is just wrong.
And you know, part of it is that part of it is that stupid
childish, you know, lowbrow thing that I have, which is where are
the monsters, you know, like, you know, if we had the Aztecs.
So maybe some pterreleptols.
Really?
No, not really.
But like I haven't, I do, I know, no, no, it's embarrassing, but
the historicals thing, I actually find a bit boring because of the
lack of science fiction elements.
I'm so sorry.
And you're an educator of yours.
I know, no, no.
Like the Romans is a notable exception.
And I have to say that I recently enjoyed the myth makers as well
but great.
See, I find that the entire opposite.
That, that, it's an historical for me is a lot more interesting
because we get to the real subtleties.
To me, it's much closer to life.
Once you put a bloke in a rubber suit, I'm not really in the
room.
That's when I actually turn the iron on.
So the historical to me, it just, how am I fitting into this?
How do I feel?
What I love about this story is that it's Barbara giving us.
It's Barbara's full entry into the narrative.
She owns this story.
I will always love this story because it gives Jackie Hill a
chance to be front and foremost.
And my God, if they'd called it Jackie who, I'd be, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, he is there with Jackie Moo.
This is for me.
Okay, I'd like to know what everyone else thinks, but this is, for
me, it's one of the 1st feminist pieces of TV I ever saw.
And it's this season that does it for me more than, well, actually
absolutely, more than any of the others that come.
It's about the women.
For me, starting off, it's about Susan, as the narrative develops
because Caroline Ford is so shortly served and given comes
straight back from being an extraordinary extraterrestrial, us
being the viewer being in the narrative to some irritating
schoolchild who never varies beyond 3 emotions for the entire
season until we get to sensorized.
So they're panic, hysteria, and a slightly different kind of
panic.
Got it.
In one.
Whereas Barbara can put on something that looks exactly like one
of Peter Scully's fabulous designs for Mardi Gras and look totally
at home.
I will rule the world and I'll do it fairly, and this is why I
love this show.
It's how do we, in the 20th century, look at our past, it is our
past.
We are an imperial culture.
I'd like to throw in what you think about the cologne, the post
colonial aspects of this season.
So you see, I don't think it is post-colonial.
And I think that that's part of the problem that takes me out of
it.
Yeah, Barbara is trying to colonise, isn't she?
But no, no, no.
I thought she's narrating the, please go on.
Well, because I think that the problem is that the narrative
explicitly says that the reason that the Aztec society is doomed
at the hands of Cortez is because it's immoral, because they have
human sacrifice.
And so when Cortez comes along, he'll be a moral...
With his kind, gentle slaughtering way.
Yeah, yeah. you know what I mean?
He'll be a moral force.
And so there is a kind of...
Pretty close for us Australian viewers. you know?
Well, there is a kind of post-colonial thing in that, you know
it's set in the new world. all of the characters are, you know, non
European and so on.
But the, the explanation for, for the fall of Aztec society is so
horrible.
Do you know what I mean?
It's so dark.
No, no, I'm saying it's just historically wrong and neurocentric.
Like Cortez doesn't, doesn't triumph because he brings superior
European values that outclass the Aztecs.
And as tech society doesn't fall because it has human sacrifice.
Aztec society falls because ruthless people with steel.
Exactly, and horses.
Because Cortez brings guns, germs, and steel as Jared Diamond
Rose.
It's a great book if you haven't read it.
I don't believe this narrative gives us anything other than
complete damnation of European copies.
No, no, I don't think no, Barbara Barbara explicitly says that the
reason that she wants to put a stop to the human sacrifices is so
that there's some hope that this...
The Cortes will be curtailed.
So Barbara there, she is a colonising force, but she's trying to
bring the best of colonialism.
But she's trying to bring the idea of civilisation and not
civilisation such as we will come and use your land and you will
serve us.
She's trying to bring, look, in our civilisation, we don't kill
people.
Which, of course, in England at the time, they still did for
murder.
Well, oh, no.
Derek Bentley.
Only just.
But yeah, but you're right, because it was a major point of
discussion. in British politics and media at the time.
And of course, you know what?
Barbara probably would not support that in the slightest, yeah.
But the thing, she's trying to bring this whole thing of...
Did we mention we love Barbara?
Oh, we do.
Really, do we?
I'm kidding.
But she's trying to bring this whole thing off.
You know, I'm not going to bring the subjugation of colonialism.
I'm going to bring the fact that you do not need to kill people to
make rain.
I'm going to bring education.
That's why it's exciting.
And it's Barbara, the history teacher saying, I'm going to bring
science to these people.
Yeah, and Ian, you can just shut up for four. exactly.
It kind of does, does it?
Yeah, he does.
He doesn't fight.
Yeah, and there's a lot of short skirtiness and thigh action and
it's kind of good.
Why is he better than the sort of Aztec Warriors at fun just
because he's our leader?
Better fed and taller.
No, come on.
And the implication that...
And he's watched a lot of TV, so and he was in Ivanhook, so he
knows what to do.
The implication that Paul Cornell keep Keith topping and Martin
Day bring in the discontinuity guide is it ended national
service.
Oh, okay, yeah, yeah.
Oh, that's right.
He's had hand-to-hand training.
He's done self- defence. gentleman.
And that means, you know, that he can hit someone with his thumb
on their shoulder blade, hit a nerve, and they'll fall down, which
is...
Oh, Star Trek is still free.
Star Trek. yes.
But that brings me to what I particularly love about the story.
Of course, you've got all the Barbara brilliantness of it.
Brilliantness.
Yeah, yeah, brilliant.
Theology is a frightening.
That's a word.
Brilliant.
Um, But what you've also got is all of The supporting characters
are characters, even...
What you mean, they're not real?
Can I just say clutoxyl?
Clutoxyl?
Could you say that again?
I just got a little warm.
Can you actually say it?
It's Quexal codal for us kids who just read it out of the book.
Um, but even even Clotoxel.
He's not just...
It's a bilateral...
No, it really is.
I'm paid to know this.
I'm going to be using that.
Everyday parts?
So Toxel is not just a villain who doesn't like the hero, so he's
going to be the villain.
He genuinely believes that this will be the end of his
civilisation.
Yeah, and if we follow new and... social imperative for opposing
Barbara.
You know, Barbara says at one point... your taxel?
How we pronounce?
You tax her.
Who are we talking about?
Barbara's...
Barbara's taxa.
New taxer.
Barbara does say at one point, oh, you know, he just wants power
but I don't think he does.
I think he genuinely believes that if they follow Yetux's
teachings, will all die.
So he really does the people, as well as she's trying to protect
the people.
And then you've got Ortlock, you know, who's his beautiful soul
who's ready to listen to Barbara, but no one's ready to listen to
him.
Yeah exactly.
So you've got all these characters. who are well-drawn characters
in their own right.
And the villain is not actually a villain. within the social
constraints of his...
Yeah, it's like everyone is trying to do the best they can, not
just for themselves, but for their culture.
Except for him.
Well, he's fighting.
Fighting away.
He gets to actually be the bit of skirt in this.
That's another reason why I love it.
The bloke is right down there just performing a role.
No one has mentioned Coutura.
Kameka.
Well, it's the same thing, isn't it?
Isn't the same thing?
She becomes couture later, yeah.
But yes, Jamaica, 0 my God.
But Billy has his little bit of romantic for a song.
It's really sweet.
I don't mind admitting I cry at the end.
Tom Silvera is delicious in this.
It's not...
Sorry, it's Margo Vanderberg.
Margaret.
For me, it's always a low, low.
I'm projecting.
I'm projecting, yeah.
You're right, and she's and she's lovely.
She is terrific.
And there is that thing.
Like, you remember the rumours that when the 5 doctors came out, um
was being made, John Nathan Turner was going to prevent Carol Anne
Ford calling the doctor.
Grandfather.
Yes, it was just a good newman, because he had to be just like a
Doctor Who fan, otherwise.
Because he's a Barbie doll when you take his pocket.
We would lose audience identification.
But, and so they always sort of reconned or, you know, there was
this sort of lack of, it was not comfortable.
I think Derek Saywood wrote a short story where she was actually
lady Lan from the dark times.
God, I hate 5 dogs.
But and we weren't really flirting or anything like that.
But you look at it in context and it's really terribly sweet and
Billy's quite smitten.
It's still, it's just...
It's too elderly people who have both clearly lost people they've
cared about.
Suddenly going, here is someone intelligent and worthy of me.
And coming back to something you were saying, Richard, about the
strength of women in this season, when Kameka realises the doctor
is leaving and he won't be coming back, she doesn't cry.
She doesn't throw herself at his feet or, you know, all of the
female tropes that you would get in films around that time.
She just turns, turns away and then turns back. and just says, just
think of me.
And walks off and goes back to her garden and...
It's probably worth noting it at this point that we've just had
this week, the passing of Maya Angelou.
Yes.
The wonderful, glorious American writer and human rights activist
who's whose words actually mirror this moment in that you own
whatever pain, whatever grief, and you rise from it, and you take
pride in whatever comes to you because it just makes you
stronger.
Rise like a phoenix.
You do.
She's really worth reading if you haven't read her.
I love everything she says.
And it's poignant and powerful, and my goodness.
Strong black women.
It's one word.
She really owns it.
And those moments hashtag, those moments between Billy, and you're
right, and come back, some of my favourite in the whole series.
So maybe I do like it.
I think you do it.
That's all I've got from what you've saying is I actually would
like to know why you don't like it.
Because I know that so much.
Because it'd be better if it had a saltari in it.
It's got great.
It's got amazing drag.
Is that okay?
All right.
And just to close out, I will say, because I'm going to send this
link to him.
I have spoken to Ian Cullen over the internet who played Exter.
Golly gosh.
And he is an absolutely lovely, lovely chap.
He's actually, um, what happened was we were talk, I was talking
about the audios I do with Planet Scar of Audios.
And he said, gosh, they sound frightfully interesting.
And we started talking about those and he said, look, you know, if
I'm ever available, that might be rather fun.
Wow.
And so even...
He's in.
Hello, you're in.
Which one was extra again?
The one fighting Ian.
Oh, the hotty.
Yes, the hottie.
Oh, and actually...
That brings me to...
That brings me to another one of Rod's comments.
Hello, Rod.
Which comes from the scene where Ian sneaks out to go through the
tunnel and then next locks him in because of course they're both
sleeping on the same floor.
And Rod's response was, God, why wasn't the camera here 10
minutes?
Oh, and there's, I mean, can we just say that Rod thought that the
Daleks was homoerotic?
Well, was that...
No, no, that was correct.
No, that was him.
And I think hastily moving along.
Oh, yes, there it is.
It's time for the censor rights, Richard.
The censorites for how do we all feel about the centre rights?
Well, I feel that an analysis of the sense rights would benefit
enormously from detailed knowledge of architectural styles and
German experience.
And thankfully, the moment has been prepared for.
And I know, I know it's not 18th century grammatically correct to
end with a...
Thank you, boys.
Let's preposition the preposition.
I bleep iTunes love this story on so many levels.
I love the orange headed 5 foot 5 aliens in the gimp suits.
I love them.
They are actually orange.
Hello, darling. glad you're here.
When are we going to hit the cosplay in the sense?
I really love this story.
I love this story for all the reasons of my political narkiness
that it ticks all the boxes.
I believe it is essentially post-colonial.
It does throw up a whole lot of things that are going on at the
time.
It really references just why I love this whole 1st season of
Doctor Who.
And honestly, I started watching.
Have we actually discussed this, gentlemen, when we 1st started
watching Doctor Who, what was our 1st remembered story?
Well, my 1st remembered story.
Don't buy for this anyone over, so it was Rose.
And, well, you must you must remember, I was born in a certain age
when they were lost. lots of repeats.
So my 1st remembered story is Carnival of Monsters.
That's not a bad place to start.
Specifically the Cliffhanger to episode 3 where John Pertwee
stumbles out of the Minoscope collapses.
Oh, that's quite a good one.
My 1st one is on Death of the Daleks.
That was on repeat as well.
That was repeat as well.
But, um, but yeah, uh, season 11 is not a great place to start.
But I've got to say, as the original generation of viewers here, my
1st live broadcast in Australia, pure memory is getting totally
hooked on, Planet of the Spiders, and watching it from episode one
to 6 as a child in primary school, so it was 1975.
I think we got it out here.
Absolutely hooked, so mesmeric, John Durth, as the master we
should have had after Delgado left.
I think he's extraordinary.
So much in that, plunder the spiders and the score and all the
rest, and we haven't actually had our Jenny Laird moment, this
podcast, but we know, well, that will come up along with the
recommendations.
Because we can only have one per season.
So yeah, please stay listening because it just gets better.
Just to segue from a, before we get back to the sensor rights, have
you chaps seen that thing online at the moment, your Doctor Who
horoscope?
You put in your date of birth and it tells you the nearest story
broadcast, your date of birth?
I think on war games.
I would, I'm actually too, I think.
Tomb of the Cyberman.
Very happy to say that.
I know.
I thought you were a Hartnell baby.
No, I... outrageous suggestion.
No, I'm 67, so I think in the UK.
But here in Australia, I think we were a season or two.
We were a bit from Australia, yeah.
Well, fun, funnily enough, with...
With with fast tracking as it was then, about 6 months.
I whether you look at the UK or Australia, I'm actually the 5
doctors.
Although if you go with what was broadcast just before me, just a
week before my birthday, it's a repeat of Terror of the Zygons
part one.
So either way, I'm in good company.
No, I think 5 doctors counts, I remember 5 doctors vividly, for
God's sake.
You were in utero.
No, no, five.
Recently emerged ex-U. I was 2 months old.
Five doctors were a podcast.
I think the 18th of December.
Don't quote me.
Anyone from my broad DW cast might be able to confirm that.
Right?
Well, I just want to throw that in, but I felt that if I...
I need to know how old we are.
Yeah, it's kind of hard to know us is to love us. as French Spiner
would say.
Who's never in doctor?
Okay, so what were you talking about?
If I'd started watching in 63.
I've got to say this is still 64.
This is still probably my favourite season.
Just because it sets everything up and because it has such purity
of narrative and introspection.
It's got some amazing people talking, working behind it.
We talked to the 1st podcast if The story was not called an
earthly child.
I thought it had to be called a little queer simply because it is
on so many levels.
Susan is so odd.
Um, really uncomfortably odd, just like most teenage girls with a
you know, introspective attitude.
It was Julie Birchill, if anyone remembers NME, new musical
express, the paper for new music in the 80s when everything was
good and great and lush and actually still dangerous.
She said, famously, that if anyone, any one of you didn't spend
their 13th summer school holidays locked in their bedroom
listening to music and hating the world.
I had nothing to say to you.
Don't read my colon.
I'm totally with her on that.
This is this is the season where we set everything up.
We examine everything that's fresh.
It's new.
It's exciting.
And we're also pointing at the rest of the world around us and
saying, what's not working out there.
What's uncomfortable?
The sensor rights is doing everything like this for me.
Um, okay, politically, you kind of got the 2 levels of what's
happening on outside.
You've got political crises, as we mentioned earlier, with Mao's
great leap forward in 58, that whole pogrom are totally against
the people and taking the food and slaughtering between 50 and 70
million.
Britain was just, with reportage being slower in those days and
coming larger likely through print media.
We were just starting to get to read about this.
It was kind of threatening.
We were also as part of an Australia very much part of the
Commonwealth.
Very much still part of the British Empire.
The Queen had only visited for Australian viewers 10 years before
and it was still very much in our mind.
Robert Lindsey's was still our prime minister.
We were even we weren't perhaps as conservative as our current
government would have us be now, but we were certainly very much
of the past and of the empire.
This is a story, the sensor rights, that looks at what it is to be
a colonial empire and what it is to let go of it.
Why I really love this story is it's the 1st one to see, we
mentioned post-colonialism before.
The 1st one to see aliens as not other.
But actually as people that come up 1st off as something strange
and unusual.
And I love the way the 1st episode's filmed in that very
somnambulistic style.
It feels like I'm that state of of being awake and being asleep
like a David Lynch film, where I'm watching this thing.
But it doesn't feel like it's in real time.
It's so hazy.
It's so, it feels like not just the way it's shot and not just the
lighting, but the way the actors behave, Maitland especially, the
chief pilot has been criticised as being one of the worst actors
in Doctor Who.
I really love him because it's there's a sense of when they're
just waking up out of the soporific state.
Have you seen Cabinet of Dr. Kalagari?
Yeah, it's Robert Avina, I believe it's pronounced, stop
sniggering.
Conrad Vice, amazing, amazing German expression of cinema, very
similar lighting, similar set.
That is.
Thank you, ding-a-ling-a-ling. everyone We've got it.
We've got it.
There's a lot of that around in Britain at the time.
We'll move on, I promise. eventually.
Gorgeous set.
I love that the...
I love that again, we're looking at our recent history and I love
again, Reiku's success design.
This isn't a quasi-futuristic, fabulous spaceship of all silvery
George Powell, day the Earth stood still intent.
This is a Lancaster Bomber.
It's got bolt holes in, yes, circular, circular doorways, but it's
a really mechanical functionary, ordinary ship.
There's nothing glamorous about it.
Even the uniforms, it's functional.
What I love, what I love so much about it is that it's a zip up
the back.
You can't, like, just like the sensory.
Just like a mandrill.
All those kind of lights themselves.
Just like start a generation. you kind of go, how do you reach?
That's it. it every morning.
Yeah, exactly.
Not exactly.
Oh, God, I'm Janet Fielding.
I'm talking about clothes.
I've never ever wondered that before.
Years of Star Trek.
Is it just me?
Or is it possible in episode one just to raise the intellectual
tone?
Is it possible that you can see a censorite Willie through the
costume?
Oh, the John Hamm meme of... of a budget?
Well, you know what they say about censor right's feet?
Ah.
No, I'm sure that you can.
There's like one shot where they, the sensor rights like walk
through the shot and they're sort of shot.
You shoot their car.
Oh, yeah, are you talking?
No, it's true.
And I'm sure that I'm sure that they got more heavy duty
underpants for the later, like the later episodes, but there is a
definite, there is a definite willy.
So much to read into.
As, as one says to an od.
Is that your translator or be you just happy to say?
Hey, hooray.
What I also really like about this story and why it's really
important for me is that it's the problem of Susan is re-engaged.
This is the 1st story written by this extraordinary man, Peter
Newman, and if you haven't seen the Doco, the lovely...
Well, I love Toby Hado. everything he does.
But the documentary is so poignant and so kind of sad.
He didn't have a great life.
But the writer of this, apart from the fact that he'd gone through
the war and had this really peripatetic lifestyle of just, you
know, odd jobs.
And I really wanted to break into theatre writing and TV writing
and this is his 1st kind of crack at TV, which starts off really
well and ends up really Agatha Christie 1955 in the later
episodes.
But for the 1st two, I really love it.
Um, and one of the things I really like about it is that he is the
1st writer to have seen the show going out and seeing what, not
just getting the note, the writer's notes.
This was scripted.
Yeah, this was scripted after he'd seen the Daleks.
So the 1st 2 stories had gone out.
So we're getting a much more interesting play on Billy on the
doctor's role and when we get later on to episode four, I'll talk
more about that.
But what I really like is that Susan is actually read as still
being interesting.
Yeah, this is actually, I have to agree with that.
This might be Susan's best story.
And partly that's because, um, which is off for a week or two.
No, no, it's hard.
Barbara's off getting a lovely test.
Lovely sunray treatment on this.
Yeah, who knew that this really functional submarine of a
spaceship had a tanning wheel?
No, they actually would have to.
Vitamin D. Very true.
Relaxing, cheer. you're trying to justify it.
No, no, you would have to do that.
It makes sense.
You would have to do it in diagetic terms. as well as Susan being
very well written in the story and having this psychic ability to
play on.
She's interesting.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, you remember, you were talking about this last time.
The premise of her character is that she would have exotic
extraordinary clothes, not just the Vidalsis in haircut kids, but
she'd also have telepathic abilities.
And, well, you know, not only that, but that then gives, because
you know, Ian has managed to save everyone by being strong and the
doctors managed to save everyone by being intelligent.
Barbara's managed to save everyone by trying to bring culture to
the Aztecs.
And finally, Susan is able to save everyone.
And the thing is, when Susan does it, she actually goes, not only
am I going to save you, I'm going to make myself a hostage to save
you because that's the only way, which is amazingly brave.
And Carolan Ford really rises to the material because, you know
you can tell, especially in Keys of Marinus and the Aztecs, she's
getting bored, which is understandable because she's been promised
this great part with nothing to do.
Suddenly the censor rights comes along, which is maybe not the
greatest story ever written, but she is given such wonderful
heroic, intelligent, interesting stuff to do.
And she just goes, I'm going to act my socks off.
Fortunately, though, next month, she'll be back to being a panicky
idiot.
And you know why?
Billy.
And it's not actually Billy.
I should say the doctor.
There's a really interesting structure here, but it's so good.
A young person achieving a voice finding her voice, finding her
role is cut down immediately.
I've never seen that, until this point, the doctor being so angry
and so hostile. from this pendulum ridiculousness of, oh, we never
argue, speaking of his granddaughter.
He completely shuts her down when she says, I'm going to go to the
planet and I'm going to, actually, lead the narrative and I'm
going to actually sort this out.
You will not contradict me.
You're my granddaughter.
You're not, you know, you don't have adulthood.
You're a child.
You can really see that moment where Carol Anne Ford as well as
Susan says, I am so out of here.
This is just not.
I've got no room to move.
I've got no room to be anything.
I'm wearing Alice in Wonderland white socks.
I'm having to stand here in a pinafore and take this grab.
She, you can really see.
Is it episode 4 that wears Carol Anne 4?
you can see in their face thinking this is not going anywhere.
And it perfectly mirrors the situation between her grandfather and
the granddaughter is the power play, the polemics between the
elder.
It's lovely that the parents in this.
This is why, I think this has such electricity this season.
The parents are dissociated and adopted, and it's actually the
grandfather and the granddaughter who have had to adopt parental
models into their family unit.
And Ian and Barbara are constantly, sort of, Susan's talking to
them and saying grandfather's being very difficult and they're
saying, Susan, okay, we'll have a word with him.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They're the moderator.
Yeah, they are. the parents that the family unit didn't have.
And the grandfather being curmudgeonly and brilliant and having
all the power because he's got the keys to Nani's wardrobe says, no
no, that's I will rewrite the scene at every moment.
What is so lovely about this story is the 1st time in episode four
we get the doctor actually acting as the doctor.
That's what I meant before when I said it's interesting that we've
got the 1st script that doesn't just come from liner notes.
Peter Newman says, the doctor will stay on the planet after he
solved the water crisis after the cultures, you know, after the
story plot has been resolved, simply to assist the narrative and
be a good person.
Yeah.
But at the same time, the only way he can achieve that is by
completely denigrating the Susan character to the point that she
has nowhere to go anymore.
She grows and then she's bonsai.
And even in the last scene, she says, oh, grandfather, I can't use
telepathy anymore.
Oh, no, darling, that's just the influence of the planet.
And I was like, why?
Why?
Because screw you, you're not going to get in charge.
This is why I hate 5 doctors because this is after so many years.
She's back.
She's the, she's the vestigial force of this narrative to start
off with.
She stands in the TARDIS and looking pleadingly at Peter for
recognition.
Yeah, yeah.
And Peter Davidson completely ignores her.
I hated that in 1983 and I still hated that.
It's terrible. and it's what we said before.
But it is, it is that thing where they wanted to, they wanted to
airbrush over that, Grant.
Yeah, because that was JNT.
Yeah, yeah.
And it didn't fit into our neat, you know, list of 38 companions.
Yeah, whatever.
Anyway, um, Yeah, yeah.
So I think like that's a great lost opportunity. will never ever
happen now.
Can you imagine Russell T. Davies reuniting Susan and the doctor
and not having it done?
This is why I'm so grateful to Russell.
Well, Susan, when she turns up in the Paul McGann audios, it's a
brilliant dynamic.
Can we we'll name those at the end as our choices because yes, I
was going to say that.
I love these ones.
Oh, okay.
But yeah, there's this great tension between the fact that, you
know, she, Susan is now in her 60s or 70s and the doctor is in his
30s.
Yes, and he's a grandson now.
Paul Mcann wishes.
She's still she's still called...
Yeah, she still calls him grandpa.
I won't go too much into that because...
But we'll put it up.
There's almost certainly a Santarian in it at some point.
At some point.
There is actually a monster.
Oh, okay, yes.
Anyway, back to...
So I think I actually really like this one.
Do you know what I mean?
I've probably expressed for 12 different contradictory opinions
about it over the course of the podcast already.
But I did sort of quite enjoy it.
And it is partly because, you know, at this point it's all sort of
something new and it is because the fake out, you know, like
episode one sets up the, um, sense rights as sort of, uh, you know
terrible scary monsters, but then it turns out that they're the
good guys.
And so you've actually been. yeah they're really quite
vulnerable.
And all of that's quite good.
And the fact that it, you know, has a planet and a sort of social
structure and stuff and people wear lovely sashes so they can tell
each other apart.
Pretty denuded social structure, though.
They don't even have names and it just seems to be one city.
Yeah, yeah. that's, I mean, that's.
It's the 1st time I can think of, that a culture, an alien culture
has been attempted to be described on television at the course of
a serial.
So, you know, they, they don't get everything right, but they get
this idea that they've got their own hierarchy, their own value
structure.
Yeah.
Okay, so they don't have names, but maybe they don't have names.
I also quite like just that we get to spend a bit of time with
them. you know what I mean?
Like it's a bit more leisurely.
I do like the drawn out note.
And the real plot really doesn't kick out until episode six.
Like, I don't think those soldier guys, even a few.
I found that very strange.
That, you know, you get this reference of, 0 no, these people
don't out.
These people died out these...
And so you think, okay, they poison the water supply and then they
die.
And now they're here.
No, they're here.
They're in a cave.
But that's okay.
We get some villains and stuff and some drama at the end.
And some lovely post-colonial nods to, you know, Britain is losing
their empire and this is how we now view our role in that, hiding
you know.
Not only that, but of course, Peter on Newman based those
characters who had been in the caves for so long, they've gone mad
on prisoners of war because he was a prisoner of war.
And it was such a pity because that little sort of 5 minute scene
that those characters have.
I thought that's really interesting.
I would have liked to see more of these characters in the episodes
like just in the background.
I would have liked to see them poisoning the water supply and
discussing what they were doing.
Then you wouldn't get the reveal.
Yeah, no, I think the reveal's fun, and I think the fact that they
wind it all up in an episode is actually sort of pretty good.
It's very atypical.
I'll get it that.
But there's nothing to be atypical of.
Yeah.
Do you know what I mean?
1st one.
Exactly.
The science fiction story.
And it's the 1st one that sets up all the stuff. the 1st time
we're inside a spaceship other than the TARDIS.
It's the 1st one that has that purely technical thing of walking
from the tide set into the spaceship, which I don't remember
happening again to, okay, maybe colony in space, but I don't
remember happening again till that moment with Liz Sladin and Tom
in Pyramid of Mars.
And I can tell you as a little boy.
That blew my head sideways. was so exciting.
I think the landing on a spaceship, I remember thinking that was
really terrific.
We can do that.
We can land out beautiful.
Exactly.
And it was just as exciting for the audience at the time.
We didn't know the Titus could do that.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, no, that is pretty good.
Love it, love it, love it.
I score?
I give it for the things that it does, if not the way it does it, 9
out of 10.
Okay.
Interesting.
Because you see, I find that, like you say, Richard, it's got some
very interesting ideas.
It doesn't necessarily execute them that well, but where in the
Daleks you've got, what is a science fiction trope?
introduced in things like the time machine with the Morlocks and
the Eloi as the Daleks and the Thals, and where in keys of
marinace, you had sort of stock standard 1940s serial locations.
Here, you do have traditional science fiction ideas.
You got the Earth spaceship, you've got the psychic aliens, but it
does turn it on its head.
And for that, it really does have to be commended, and it's such a
shame that Peter R.
Newman didn't get to write either more doctor or more film in
general.
I think he did.
I think he did a couple of hammer films, but then didn't write for
one reason or another.
And he's he's got a very good grip on character.
He's got a very good grip on turning cliches on their head.
Not necessarily a great grip on narrative, but with those two, And
given more time, he could have done some really interesting
stuff.
I think it's a real shame that we don't have more of him either in
Doctor Who or in anything else.
In fact, it is, you know, like Richard expressed scepticism that
keys of marinas were science fiction at all.
And there's a sense in which that's right.
Whereas this is sort of undeniably science fiction in that sort of
playing with ideas thing.
You know, it's not just people being menaced by monsters, uh, which
is what the show essentially becomes.
Um, Spoiler alert, some of us look for.
But it is a proper science fiction thing with an A. It really is.
Manchurian candidate is a film that came out in 1963 by the
extraordinary, violent, and outwardly queer John Frankenheimer.
He's actually the, he was the Douglas Campfield in a frock of
mainline cinema.
He had all of the army intention and the uh, ebullience and the
bullishness of Dougie Canfield, but really outwardly openly
queer.
It was kind of a rare thing in those days, but really strongly
so.
Um, Yeah, he's, he's filamentarian candidate with Lawrence Harvey
Angela Lansbury, Frank Sinatra, interestingly enough, was a film
about mind control, and that had been revealed that the Chinese
were doing with spies in their own concentration camps, the spies
that they had captured, they were brainwashing and sending them
back to the West.
Film didn't actually get full release at the time, although it was
shown in Britain. shown for a short time, not full release in the
US because it was so political.
Um, it's, It's nicely suggested in this, and you're kind of
wondering where all of this stuff with the telepathy is coming
from.
I believe that's on the strong parts of it.
It also has one of the greatest billy fluffs that's generally
ignored of this season.
When he calls out, stabilises Matron, the same time rather than
Maitland.
I'm firmly convinced that they were, which I think is the 28th
season equivalent of quickness screens.
We have a lovely nod to carry on in that one moment.
All right.
Just before noise.
Well, just before we move on, I just want to praise Stephen
Dartnell's performances, John.
Yeah, it's great.
He's like a primordial David Tennant, really, isn't he?
Yeah, well, and...
In a billywig, yeah.
It's kind of the thing of, you know, his madman, you can't really
appreciate his madman performance until the later episodes when
he's restored.
And he is so sort of straight down the line, really a matinee idol
kind of voice.
And then you look back and when he's sort of clutching at Susan's
leg and saying, no, I won't hurt them.
They're my friends.
You go, actually, that's really good.
Yeah, really.
And he was Yante.
He was the art tech leader of the alien board.
He's got a range.
Yes.
From good to leader of the alien board?
Yep.
The only observation I have from Rod on this story.
Here we go. is kind of erotic.
No, no.
There was a wheelie in episode one.
No, no, but he does wonder...
Sorry.
He does wonder that why after the doctor says, you know, they're
very sensitive to loud noise.
It's like, no, no, stay back, stay back, stay back.
Why doesn't anyone just scream?
Oh, yeah, interesting.
Oh, since rights are about to attack me.
I'll just scream.
I'll shout, I'll shout obscenities out there.
But they didn't know that.
Well, no, Billy says that they do.
Yeah, but not when they were 1st anyway. not when they 1st came.
But that's that's his witty observation.
Okay, so, ah, right.
There we are.
Gosh, we're at the end of the season.
All right.
And it seems not a moment too soon.
So we're now moving into the reign of terror. which for trivia
fans out there.
Like Marco Polo, has missing episodes, but whereas Marco Polo has
all its episodes missing, Reign of Terror only has episodes 4 and
5 missing.
Yes, it is, yes.
And they're animated.
Yes, they are animated by an Australian animation studio called, I
believe they're called Theta Sigma.
The reign.
The reign of terror.
How do we all feel about this?
Well, it's just terrible, is it?
There's no monsters.
There's not the same.
Do you know what I mean?
If there had been a varden kind of yerking in there in that cell.
And then, you know, like it's like le conciergerie.
And then there's another room.
Like the entire last 4 episodes are just in these 2 rooms, it's
really just sort of terribly tiresome.
The 1st episode sort of quite entertaining, although I don't know
why suddenly, you know, after all, again, I think this is the
sound of a thing, but we had all that hard one characterisation in
earlier on in the season and now he's just going to turf them off
his ship.
Because Ian made an offhand remark about, oh, do you know where
we're going?
Well, I don't know where we're going, but I'm not going to tell
you I don't know where we're going.
In fact, wherever we're going, you're going there.
And that's exactly it.
Billy says, that's it.
You're off the ship. makes no sense. other than for the need to
have a cliffhanger.
Yeah, it is.
It's the need to have a cliffhanger. you know, and it creates, and
they sort of throw it away pretty early on in episode one.
And ever since quite, episode one's quite...
Not too quickly, yeah.
I like episode.
Especially the cliffhanger, when they pan from the fire to the
Black Knight sky.
And you just go, my god, the doctor's going to burn to death.
And then it's like, no, wait, a boy half his science has dragged
him out of the fire.
It's okay.
But that's a quite expensive looking thing.
Like there's a model and there's some stock footage and stuff
looks really good.
And then and then we get the famous, you know, 1st uh, actual
location footage, uh, which we've never had before, which is...
It's Ryan Proud.
It's quote unquote, Billy.
It's a robot replica.
It's by the Dalek.
Spoiler alert.
And and you know, like maybe that scene with the guy who's digging
the road is sort of reasonably entertaining.
Although, like, why is he not in the plot for so long?
I don't really understand it.
And then just the rest of it is them just all going in and out of
prison, which is all just sort of kind of around.
And I think, again, the only thing that I think is fun is, Because
you know, again, like the Aztecs, we've kind of got a comic book
version of history.
And so, you know, naturally the aristocrats are good guys because
the revolutionaries are killing people.
Do you know what I mean?
Like there's this sort of reactionary, crummy politics to it, which
Barbara then stands up and addresses and she tells them all off
and says, you know, that's not what it's like. these people.
I mean, you know, and the actual narrative doesn't do any of
that.
The narrative is sort of fairly reactionary, but at least within
within the narrative, Barbara stands up and tells it like it is
and she's fantastic.
You know, that's a great moment.
But the rest of it's all really exhausting.
And Carol Anne continues to degenerate horribly.
She's Paul, terribly yeah, treated a Paul.
I mean, and this is why this, I think, story is interesting, but
only to observe not to actually be involved with as a viewer. to
know the backstory.
It's the historical we had to have.
It's the most obvious thing to do.
We forget that I kind of benefitted from this, but doing history
at school, French Revolution is still something that was taught
and that school children knew a lot about.
That was kind of like there was.
There was that book on the card, but it was one of the, it was one
of the last, kind of the last generation where we were taught
about this in schools, both here and in Britain.
It's also the one where the stuff going on behind the scenes was a
hell of a lot more exciting and interesting and dangerous and the
stuff that was happening on screen.
We had, we had a director, um, Henrik Hirsch, Heinrich Hirsch, who
was kind of a great leap forward and verity was being, we forget
how experimental she was, perhaps we forget how experimental she
was being in this season. and taking a director who'd only done
one other thing she'd seen, a political historical piece.
He'd escaped from Native Hungary in 56 in the Revolution.
He was greatly troubled by this and had a was already known to
have a nervous temperament.
The same director who passed out in episode, the filming of
episode 3 or 4 and Pinfield took over.
After that.
He was so antagonistic that Carol Anne Ford was apparently yelling
to, well, not yelling, but just saying to the to the powers that
be that I am so out of here.
And it was because of this story and because of this director
there's that famous thing that she's always been put down for the
way she was behaving in the cells.
Oh, no, the rats and being, you know, pretty much received as
being entirely pathetic in this.
Yeah, it's like, I'm going to get my head dropped off.
Oh, no, I can't face any rats, yeah.
Well, it's the best point.
Well, she was also and they weren't given direction.
He was apparently not the kind of director that he was just
finding his feet.
He was finding it really technically difficult to understand how
the cameras work.
He said, and you got this note that why must you be so maudlin?
Yeah, he was Hungarian and he'd say, he'd seen a revolution.
It escaped in 56.
You think he would have been sympathetic?
She's standing there and she's sending notes back.
I'm in a sewer like cell.
I've got surrounded.
I'm really ill.
I'm surrounded by rats.
And I'm going to be decapitated.
Exactly.
I'm feeling a little maudlin right now.
It's as if Judith Lucy was personally narrative way back then.
Oh my god, can you imagine Judith Lucy and Susan?
think we'd have an entirely different show.
Well, Judith losing a tough car is dead.
Oh, yeah.
Well, in some ways, she...
You stupid man.
You didn't realise you would have died if I hadn't got the food
machine working for you.
I do do a rather reasonable due to blue seat, which is unfortunate
because I'm a man.
I think we should keep that in.
They were back in Lime Grove. horrendous.
Terrible, terrible timing.
No, but now they've, did I make a lime grove mistake earlier on in
the podcast and you were both too polite to mention it.
No, I think you were still correct.
No, you're correct.
They had gone out, but they were back on back in Studio D. And
this was awful for everybody, terribly hot, this kept going off
the sets kept getting wet.
They had to wait for it to wait, the sprinkles to go.
So a lot, she said, you know, she said the tension that you see is
entirely naturalistic, this is exactly what we were going
through.
But he would produce notes is why she saw Maudlin.
Why has she been so difficult?
Bloody hell.
I been nibbled by rats and I'm ill and the way it's written and
I'm trying to like my little socks off because I've got nothing
else to do and I'm getting copying criticism from everyone
including the fan base today.
And you see this being really crap and week in this.
I think she's fine.
I think she's doing a great job and she's got nothing else to do.
I mean, her performance, like whatever about her performance, it
is really a problem with the way the character is written.
It's really holy...
Carol's a good actress.
Yes.
Especially if in this, yes.
Well, especially the censor rights.
She's really good in.
Um, an earthly child.
She's really good.
She's very good in the Daleks.
Outside of Doctor Who.
She is great in the St.
Trinian's film she's in, and also Day of the Triffords.
Yeah.
Do you know I've never seen that day of the truth?
good, yeah.
It's good.
It's, I would say it's not as good as the 80s TV version, which
covers more of the story.
But for a Hollywood adaptation where they have to shorten the
story to 90 minutes.
It, you know, where a lot of those things they will cut out so
much of the intent of the book, it still maintains the spirit.
And Carol, she is a supporting character in it, but she is a very
memorable character in it.
No, well, I've never seen her in anything else, so it's hard to
know.
For me, it's has no...
Yeah, it sounds like in the pilot, she could have played a more
detached and more self-possessed alien character who was who
enjoyed the adventures.
But here she's just sort of a blubbery, panicky fool.
Do you know what I mean?
And like worse than in any of those stories so far?
And, you know, I'm sure that's not Caroline's choice, but gosh
it's really sort of miserable to watch.
Kind of when you compare with our self-possessed Jackie is in the
same circumstances.
You know?
I mean, it's not real peril. you know what I mean?
It's not she's not with Peter R.
Newman in a prisoner of war camp.
She's just in Lime Grove pretending to be in a prison cell.
You know, we don't need quite that level of hysteria.
And I think just the kind of, um, the, the way that Barbara
pitches it, where it's a terrible thing, but she's sort of
resigned to it, and we're not being forced to sit through a lot of
histrionics.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, they're sort of, they're on 2 levels.
And if if Carol Anne was on Barbara's level of, okay, I'm really
scared, but I'm going to work through it, or if Jackie was on
Carol Anne's level of, oh my god, I'm going to panic.
It wouldn't seem so jarring.
Not fun to watch that.
I think the reason that scene is JoJo is when we can't forget this
now.
It's written by Dennis Spooner and Dennis Spooner is 1st and
foremost, a comedic writer.
This is actually meant to be seen as a comedy.
Yeah, and I think again, the movie?
The direction is...
The direction doesn't quite pick up.
No, at all.
Except for...
You've got a non-English...
The director had very little English, apparently, when he was
making this suit.
He's not quite there yet either.
Like his next story.
Spooner.
Oh, yeah, yeah, it's tremendous.
And this is not as good as that.
You know, he's still finding his feet as well. with Doctor Who.
And it's amazing when you consider that in the time frame we're
thinking of.
It's either this or the Romans, which got him the job as script
editor.
And I think it's this because he scripted it to dumb the rescue.
Which is true.
Which meant that he was going to get the job.
Yeah, Whittaker wrote the rescue.
Whittaker Rose script there.
Yeah.
I could think of German expressionism at all.
Well, I was actually going to segue if that's okay to
unintentional comedy.
If this is rent to be read as a comedy, and I thought, you know, we
know that it is.
There are little moments like, you know, um, Barbara playing it
with a mormoset accent when they're playing 2 servants and at the
end of the thing, is this kind of, as it is, I suppose, hilarious.
But it's the supporting cast.
Most, I guess most significantly we've got James Canncross.
As Le Maitre and later reveal as James Sterling, to give us the
campus performance, I believe, we've ever had, even Billy's fluffy
feathered hat, cannot meet James Cancross's extraordinary
performance in this as the Sydney Carton character, the tale of 2
cities.
He's playing Dirk Bogart.
That film had just come out a few years before the British tailor
tremendously popular.
And if we're talking about unintentional reveals, the very 1st
brine island stretch jersey packed lunch reveal was Dirk Bogart's
famously well-packed, apparently, cinematically moments of wearing
them, wearing the pantaloons in that film anyway, he was kind of
well known for it.
Um, But I just can't get over James Kangross's performance.
He actually gives us Duckface and invented it in 9064.
We have the 1st selfie.
We didn't...
Doctor Who.
Star Trek?
Taken by John Cure.
Exactly.
James, you know, Star Trek may have invented the flip phone, but
Doctor Who created the Duckface Selfie.
Watch again.
He's doing it the entire way through, the way he looks up William
Russell, and there is no other way of saying that through all of
these episodes.
It's Carry on Frenchy.
It sets up beautifully that Caroline Ford's next big cinematic
performance that's the saucy French mistress in the Great
Centrinian's train robbery of 1966.
I have never seen this.
It is well worth watching directly after you watch this. picking
up what you were saying about William Russell.
And, well, we haven't discussed William Russell much because we've
been talking about the strengths of Barbara and the deficiencies
of Susan.
William Russell is just steady and he's the rock throughout the
whole season.
And, you know, it's easy to see why people say the show is about
Ian for much of the 1st season.
No, about Barbara.
Barbara, I would have thought for the 1st season.
But I think that's a big reason that Reign of Terror falls, but
because Ian is...
So obviously not in the room.
Yeah, yeah, holiday.
He's on holiday for episodes 2 or three.
And literally the plot grinds to a halt.
The doctor gets some new clothes.
He gets in a in, sorry, the doctor gets some new clothes.
He gets Barbara and Susan out of jail.
And then they go back in.
Yes, I know.
And then he gets called to a meeting with Robespierre and then Ian
is released in time to come back.
Sorry, Ian is kidnapped in time to come back for his holiday, but
we don't see him until the following week.
And that's all that happens in 2 episodes.
But the 2 episodes we've lost are the ones where the plot actually
gets going again.
So true.
Do you remember, do you remember what happened to Rose here?
like something really horrible.
Yeah, what happened in real life?
She got in the jaw, shot in the jaw. right to me.
And so he actually wants to see it.
We hear the shot and we see it's again that moment that...
So everyone at home knows he's been all the kiddies at home know
he's been shot.
We knew the story.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's kind of like...
It's awful.
It's kind of like perhaps not my nieces and nephews, but people my
age know that Harold Holt drowned.
That's the kind of thing it was at the time, I think, that people
knew that...
Because history was not an elective in at that time.
You were taught this stuff.
Yeah, so I didn't I actually didn't know the shot in the jaw, I
think, because I'm lamentably ignorant about everything.
I didn't know until random terror.
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Boutour.
That's horrible.
That is kind of horrible because he wanders through the thing.
The scene, you know, after that's happened.
Do you know the reason he was shot in the jaw?
Because it wouldn't shut up.
Much like outback.
He wouldn't need his mushroom.
It's kind of that, but no, it's it's that even he was respected
even by the general public.
But the general public realised, like the ones who knew the ones
who knew what he was really like, and I did air quotes around that
realised that if he gets the chance to talk to people, he will he
will convert them to his way of thinking, we will see him
talking.
Yeah, yeah.
That's the reason he specifically shot in the drawer.
We don't want to kill him because we need to put him on trial.
Tony Abbott.
He shoots himself in the drawer.
Ah, dear.
And then has to pay his doctor $7, right?
I think we've done tremendously well.
I hope you've been opening a bottle with us. how you would have
survived this without it.
No, no.
So they're doing it in 2 bits.
Oh, hurray, okay, one.
Yeah, we've actually recorded this in one session with just minor
lubrics.
So, um, I think...
We believe...
So 1st of all, we've got to discuss the Jenny Lairdward for most
cuzzling creative choice.
So do we have any nominees?
Well, again, I have to nominate James Cancross for giving me just
so much duck face for so little in return.
I really, really love what he managed to do for me.
It rescues Reign of Terror from being something I would have done
a lot of ironing instead of.
Oh, gosh.
What do you think?
I don't know.
I'm being forced to come up with an opinion on the spot.
I did think, what do we think?
Maybe I would give uh, Terry Nation, the Journey Laird Award.
And it really is just, you know, I still don't buy the idea that
it's a clever, unexpected fusion between hard science fiction and
action adventure story.
I think it is just the daleks, you mean?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think I think he's just run out of things to do at the end of
episode four.
And he goes, oh, crap, I've still got another 3 episodes.
Let's have a swamp.
He's even wound it up.
We found the fluid link.
We're ready to go.
Everything's resolved.
Off we go and it's just like the terrible sinking feeling that we
have just 3 more episodes of creeping slowly through, you know
unimpressive looking corridors to go because he can't think of
anything else to do for the next 7 episodes.
And that's really it.
He's out of things probably by that, you know, it'll just be
recycling from here on in, I think.
I believe in Oprah speak, we need to own that.
Yeah, maybe right.
Well, I suppose my nominee for the Jenny Laird award for the most
puzzling creative choice is Daphne Dare, who is the costume
designer for much of this series, but specifically, because she
does loads of good stuff, I'm just questioning one puzzling
creative choice, which is why is Altos wearing a pair of Speedos
in the Keys of Mariners?
Why does he have no shorts, no trousers, no kilt, no anything.
He's got a cape.
He's got a cape, that's true.
I suppose you could say it's inverting the whole thing off.
He's scantily clad and showing off our legs while Sabita has a
collar to floor dress.
I suppose you could say that, but it's just rather odd, especially
seeing as Altos seems to rather enjoy having his thighs rubbed.
Sorry, I'll do that as due to Lucy.
It is rather odd, especially when you consider that Altos rather
enjoys having his thighs rubbed for warmth by Ian, but then again
who wouldn't.
I really like that you drop down to Tanner to... from your own
reign.
According to my according to my audition, my failed audition, I
should say, for the creative arts school at Wollongong University
I am a barattenna.
So there you go.
Which would make due to base baritime, I guess.
They actually made that up just to kick me out. to kick you in the
ass.
And what about what about gorgeous things that we should then go
and have a look at?
Pics of the week.
Pick up the week. week.
My peaks of the week are about time.
Yeah, hurrah.
It's a series we have a copyright here, which you can see at home
through the microphone.
Spacetime visualiser.
Brendan's presenting it to the microphone, so you can all
presenting the book to my screen.
Yeah, sorry, the book.
It's Mr. Tat Wood and Mr. Lawrence Miles.
So it's the increasingly crazy...
Interestingly involved at Lawrence Miles, plus Tatwood. and
Tatwood in who used to wash his hair with dishwashing liquid and
wear a pith helmet.
There you go, when we used to know him.
I love your tab.
So it's a series of 7 books.
The 1st 6 are on the classic series and the 7th book, which has
only recently released, covers series one or 2 of the new series.
And it really is just some of the most extraordinarily detailed
writing.
There's a thing about sort of Doctor Who books of Doctor Who
program guides where you sort of think, eh, I could do that in my
sleep.
Do you know what I mean?
I could get a couple of my friends together and sit on a couch and
just blow V 8 without doing any research or preparation for like
hours.
Not at all like this.
But, um, but about time is meticulously researched.
It's really, really...
And they don't agree.
They don't get on.
So you get some really good moments.
I don't think so.
Yeah, I like that.
It's, it's, it's terrifically well written.
And if you need to know anything about the production, It's all
there.
Like it's not just people's opinions.
There's lots of concrete detail about the production and lots and
lots of really interesting stuff about the world into which each
episode was transmitted.
But it is uproariously entertaining and funny, just terribly well
terribly, terribly good.
Well worth, well worth a look, really terribly, terribly good
stuff.
And if you're at all interested in the sort of history of Doctor
Who's production, there's really nowhere else you can go for that
sort of information.
Well, my recommendation for this month, going from physical
imprint books to a book that did have a very small physical print
run, but I believe you can still get it as a PDF and we'll include
a link on the website.
It's the wonderful book of Doctor Who, 1964.
Oh, golly.
What?
And what it is.
When Matt Smith started as the doctor, instead of doing annuals
the BBC started doing the brilliant book of Doctor Who, very well
edited by Clayton Hickman.
Yeah, I mean, laughing's word.
Well, this is a book done in that style, but for Billy's 1st
season.
Have you guys not seen it?
I think I've got the PDF on it.
Tom is a little extra in one of the DWEs.
No, no, that was another movie. because that's great. was very
different.
But no, so this is exactly in that style with with fake interviews
with Heart Law.
No.
And it you get a map of marinace.
If anybody's familiar with the velvet jacket DVD covers website
the artist on their Joe Cannon is one of the artists who put this
book together.
I believe he's the head artist, but if you're the head artist and
you're listening, I do apologise for getting that.
Please let us know.
This is called the...
This is called the Wonderful...
The Wonderful Book of Doctor Who, 1964.
Look at this.
It's absolutely beautiful.
I have a PDF.
I hope I'm meant to have that.
I believe it's available for free download, but the limited print
rum has ended, but it still looks beautiful on your computer
screen.
So that's my recommendation.
Google it.
We will also include a link.
Yeah, please.
I'm looking forward to seeing that.
Well, as representing the elder fandom here, for default, if not
choice, I've got to say, print medium is the 1st way I got to
catch up with Doctor Who in the 70s and 80s and it's still my 1st
go to of choice.
Please, if you haven't read them, find everything that David
Whittaker has ever written and read it.
I know that it's the popular thing now to listen to the audios, but
honestly, you don't have the subtleties of your own interpretation
and your own voice that you get from just reading a paper book
back novel.
I think there's only three.
David Whitaker in an exciting adventure with the Daleks.
I know it's meant to be Doctor Who, but we'll play it this way.
The Crusades and the 3rd one.
No, he didn't write the zerbie.
That was Bill Stratton.
It was Bill Stratton.
So it is just those two.
It is just the two.
Okay, because I was, yeah, and glorious.
If I can just add to that, Richard, you don't need to track down a
copy of the originals because both of those have been reprinted by
being reprinting their out right now with a lovely introduction
and you can also get them as PDFs.
I actually have the audible.com audiobook of William Russell
reading Doctor Who.
And I have heard that because BBC 4 played it last year and it's
beautiful, but I honestly say, if you're used to hearing or
getting your target novels as audios, just for these two, go back
and read them in print because your own voice will make a
difference.
They are actually quite beautiful.
And something to look out for in the, in both of them, really, is
David Whittaker really focusses on and captures the relationship
between Ian and Barbara.
I won't say anything more than that.
I think it's interesting to see how much the script editor's role
was really involved because Dave Whitaker was script editor.
So much of his voice after reading the books, I can now see in
that 1st series.
So there we have it.
I think that's everything we've got to say about the 1st season of
Doctor Who.
So we'll be back next month with another two-part podcast in July
for Doctor Who season two.
So we'll be looking at all the stories from Planet of Giants
through to the Time Meddler inclusives.
A lot.
I'm so excited.
It's a great year.
It's fantastic year.
Yeah, we say goodbye to Susan and we say hello to Vicky.
Oh, thank God.
But we are getting ahead of ourselves.
So I'm going to say goodbye.
Oh, goodbye.
And goodbye and thank you.
You have been listening to Flat Through Entirety with Nathan
Bottomley, Brendan Jones and Richard Stone.
This episode, Sir Maudlin, was recorded on June the 1st in Sydney
Australia.
The next episode will be released on July 20.
You can find us at flightthroughentirety.com or on Twitter at FTE
podcast.
I'm going to go into a room in which no light will shine and fill
that room with noise.
It's a One Direction concert.
Because you see, I, I, I don't, I think it's got very interesting
ideas.
I don't rate it that highly though, but I find it...
That's okay, it was just, wasn't it, darling?
That's alright.
I find that.