WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:52:12

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Hello, and welcome to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast. whom you can't confine to one place in one time.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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And by Richard.

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Hello.

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Who you are.

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That's who I am.

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That's the reason I'm doing that today.

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Not the only one.

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Yes, because Richard is not the last person to introduce.

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We have joining us, friend of the podcast and convention interviewer and organiser extraordinaire Sir Todd Bealby and Todd, I'm now handing over to you and going to drink this very nice champagne.

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Cheers.

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Cheers.

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Cheers.

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Cheers.

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Cheers.

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Thank you, Brenda.

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Thank you, everybody, for having me here today.

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We feel special.

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Yes, I'm quite excited.

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I'm 600 and just stere at each other.

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I don't have to control these 2 when someone brings up the massacre.

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That's all you today Did somebody mention the message?

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No, please don't go.

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No, I'm really excited.

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Listeners, it's in this inner sanctum with the 3 who will.

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Okay, speak Canilla.

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I don't think there was a contest.

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Or yes, well, of course, we're here to reflect on your journey so far.

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I just want to thank you on half of everybody. the wonderful insights that you've given us along the way and all your discussions and arguments and affirmations and making us think about things that we never thought about before or dismissed, you know, offhand.

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I think there's been a lot of dismissal.

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Oh, no, no, it certainly made me, you know, go back and look at the sense rights again and reevaluate a few different characters and performances, but we might get to that.

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All right, let's start with something deep and meaningful.

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You've just reached the end of the 1960s.

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This journey that you've undertaken.

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What have you discovered about yourselves?

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As Doctor Who fans?

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I wonder what the youngest person thinks about that.

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Um, In a way, I have discovered that I can actually do this project because I don't talk about this much on the podcast itself, but the podcast was my idea initially I do the editing.

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I posted most of the episodes.

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Richard has also hosted about... about a 3rd of them.

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The cat has helped as well.

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Yeah, yeah, Richard's cat.

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Yeah, it's just the fact that I... have been able to put my mind to it and edit it and cut it all down and it's it's very Zen.

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It, like darkening for me.

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Which is, sorry, what do you mean you cut it down?

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I mean, they're actually longer than that.

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They're actually longer.

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Dear listener, you know, sometimes lifting the veil here.

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Very often, especially if you hear us mention an actor's name, we usually have to rush to Wikipedia.

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No, rubbish, it's all it's all in our rotary file effects.

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Toby Haydock, if you're listening, I apologise that just throwing your iPod across the room in disgust that we don't know Doctor Who actors.

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But, um, I mean, that's what I've discovered about myself, I suppose, in this.

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It hasn't really changed any of my my views of Doctor Who.

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I have sort of come to realise more how the actors develop their portrayals.

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Because if we just watch, say, a solitary story featuring, say, Deborah Watling, Victoria is much maligned by the fan community, but if you watch...

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Yeah, they can shape, they're mistaking his head.

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We've been quite strong on that, haven't we?

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So-called secondary characters and how, you know, right from the beginning, the female lead was really the lead.

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It was actually called that, just as Russell called, his search show rose, and Russell recognised that it was there from the start.

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I was interested to know what you thought, Brendan, on just a view of the time in the 60s and that's what I've been getting out of this.

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There's a whole lot of other windows into what was going on because I didn't catch the black and whites the 1st time round, but we were certainly aware of them.

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And there were this great mysterious bolt of the unknown that were half remembered by fans 10 years old and then I was, you know, way too much older and cool when you're in your early teens to actually, you know, part with anything, but little snips of knowledge.

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So it was it was so difficult to find anything, even just for colour pictures, you have to go to university libraries and become a nerdy spot to find old issues of TV week or whatever it was that we used to look up.

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So I actually learned research skills as an 11, 12 year old.

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Yeah, going into Fisher library.

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God, isn't that nerdy?

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I'm trying to find the old images, but and now, of course, it's a completely different take.

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So I was wondering for someone like you who's grown up with with all of this information available.

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How is this taken?

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This has taken a different check for you.

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And I love that you said it's actually about the actors.

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Yeah, so you can see ongoing characterisation.

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Before I comment on that, I just want to put out that, Richard puts in out the 3 of us.

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You put in the biggest amount of research.

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Well, that's my homework.

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Because, but then as I just said, you do an enormous amount of work on the IT in the background.

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And that's really staggers me is still a Luddite.

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I just tell them how much work there is in putting something like this together.

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Well, mostly just editing out, I swear, and probably a lot of Mac, and I'll say that.

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Yeah, I never swear.

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Yeah, no, the leather, never swears.

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It's always in our coat.

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It's always in archaic languages, so the rest of us can't understand.

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It's great.

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But it's great that you're still finding it fun and enjoyable and not a labour.

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The surprising thing is...

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Most Can I can I just can I do an anecdote?

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Opening the kimono and...

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We recorded the 4 the 4 episodes of season 3 all in one sitting, one mammoth sitting.

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And I think probably, you know, those 4 episodes would have to add up to, you know, 5 hours.

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Yeah, the recording was something like 6.5 hours.

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The overall recording time.

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And it was murderous.

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Richard was going to kill either one of us.

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Because also Richard had volunteered to host that recording and...

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I was starting a new job the next day.

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You didn't know when you volunteer that.

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And Rod was sick as well, so it couldn't be at my place and I was going to America.

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So we got double banking or something like that trying to get through all of it.

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And I think our tolerance, our tolerance for that has gotten laid out.

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The last few times we've just recorded one.

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Yeah, we recorded one.

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I think going forward now the seasons are mercifully much shorter.

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We'll be able to, um, you know, we'll be able to do just sort of 2 at a time and release 2 a month.

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Okay, 26 episodes to watch.

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See, for me, the big thing going back to your question, Todd, is that for me, the thing has been just how much fun it is and like how happy with the product, the finished product I've been.

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I've really, really enjoyed it and I tragically, occasionally re-listened to it.

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You know, I have my favourites.

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I love that.

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The season 3 once, actually, despite the production process.

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That'll be cool 1st ones.

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I think we get I think we got very raw with season 3 and there's a lot in season 3 that's controversial.

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We talked about the racism in the arc.

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I was going to say YouTube is centred, but we dissented with you, Nathan, over the massacre because we think it's wonderful and you're wrong.

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It's my favourite, yeah.

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I think it was more fun to listen to than it was to record.

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But I hope so.

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But it's certainly that's what a lot of these seasons are like.

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And if you do try and watch them in a hit.

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I really recommend no one does that because you do end up feeling, it's not, again, it's, is it Sandoval?

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and all Toby Haddock says it as well.

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You're not into watch these things on the block.

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And that's right.

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And that's the other thing too. is that I didn't really know the 60s of Doctor Who very well.

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And I'd already decided that I was going to watch the Barbara era.

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Um, as I like to call it, just all the way through.

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I was just going to watch the 1st 2 seasons, I was probably going to end the chase.

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And then Brendan brought up the idea of the podcast and so it ended up being watching the 60s all the way through.

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And I've mentioned on the podcast before heaps of these things, things like Marco Polo and the Massacre and the highlanders and the savages and the space pirates.

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There's lots of them that I just never ever seen before.

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And so now, you know, as I mentioned in the last episode, I've seen all of Doctor Who.

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And that's like I'm really happy about that.

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I've loved the show since I was 10, you know, now to have a better idea of how it went in the 60s and also to discover just how great it was in the 60s.

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So someone at a party over Christmas said that they got the impression that I only really liked about 6 classic series stories and that everything else was tiresome.

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But, um, well, you do want to put a rootin or a bandrum in everything you lost.

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But, um...

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Why did I never think of that?

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I think going back in series nine.

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Awesome.

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They're giant 50 foot high cyborgs, apparently.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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No, just to discover how much I loved 60s Doctor Who, and particularly the Heartnol era, you know, and for all of its terrible faults.

145
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Even season three, it has been a really fun, a fun ride.

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And I think that's what I appreciate.

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I do the website and that kind of thing.

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And that's sort of something that I've done before and something that was well within my wheelhouse sort of thing, but that has also been fun, I think, and the interactions on the website and more specifically the Facebook page, which is where most people you know, tend to engage with us.

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And I should mention, dear listener, that shortly after this podcast, in time for our 1st release for the John Pert era, we will be debuting a redesigned website.

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So stay tuned for that.

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Does it look alright?

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I think it looks great.

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Okay.

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Oh, it's a car. excited.

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Do you think that heading into the 70s that because as Australian fans we've seen or they show so many times that's going to influence your journey?

156
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Are you are you looking at going in and saying, well, I want something to be proven different than they want my perceptions, I would say, you know, a performance or a story or you're just going in there and just taking it as an accountant.

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I'm still like watching and making notes.

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Do you know what I mean?

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And I, last night I finished watching the Siberians and and I discovered things that I thought about that, that I hadn't thought before.

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So I think you watch it sort of a bit more intentionally and a little bit more deliberately if you have to say something about it.

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But I do expect it at least to be easier.

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You know, these are things that I know so well, you know, um, that it will be easy to say, sort of fun things about it.

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I think the challenge will be saying things that are surprising about it.

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Like, I think people know the 60s a bit less well.

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You know, even among our audience.

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That's true.

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It is more familiar, but there's also surprises.

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And this is the thing with watching them again.

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I'd only just watch them the year before.

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Um, as part of the great cultural journey of life. is that there's something different each time, even to the point that I really didn't enjoy pets tenure watching them again series.

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I think I got up to just sort of the middle of Tom before we started the podcast a bit. back to the beginning.

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Imagine that.

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Um, and then this time around I did, and I can see how good Pat is, even when he's laboured with you, he could say less than lustrous squid material, less than less than ideal plot thread, 3% of one.

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For the Christmas season.

175
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Um, that, yeah, there are surprises or even just seeing how the women players have really been fully served and they finally got it partly mostly partly right with Wendy Abri, but even then, she, they kind of forgot about it.

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And yeah, there'll be lots to talk about on all the different cultural levels of it.

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And the 70s being more familiar.

178
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I think might actually be more surprising because we think we already know about it and then we go back.

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We were terribly young or even not there, deep listeners.

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So that's an issue.

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I never bring up my age.

182
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I don't think it's... to the rest of us.

183
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Maybe because the last 70s are great, though.

184
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No, they were really the best.

185
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They actually were.

186
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You could be a nine-year-old still know about Studio 54 and Bianca Jago, because Kenny Everett and the Goodies were constantly referencing that.

187
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We, yeah, there was, growing up without an internet didn't mean we didn't know the thing.

188
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You were just more attentive to the little than the focussed on the camera obscure.

189
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The light was narrower, but it was a lot sharper.

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Well, I do get a bit of an eye into that because, as you know, but I'm not sure if I mentioned a podcast before.

191
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My partner, Roddy, is older than myself. closer to you guys in age than me.

192
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So he does talk about that time and he...

193
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He's digitised most of his record collections.

194
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So I've heard I've heard such classics as disco wedding.

195
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Oh. by Nigo.

196
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You haven't heard that, it is gloriously bad.

197
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Yeah, why not?

198
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But I think something that's always interesting for me, looking back on these stories, is I have a nostalgia for an age in which I never lived.

199
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But so do we.

200
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Just have been immediately before our time.

201
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I find that quite relevant, that early 60s thing, yeah.

202
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I mean, the other thing I'm quite looking forward to.

203
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Like we did in the 60s, is rehabilitation of certain characters because I still talk to people who insist that Joe Grant had no character development.

204
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Oh, God, she's brilliant.

205
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She's the best thing ever.

206
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Richard can't stanza.

207
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Spoiler alert.

208
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Although, I should point out, we all look cated. and that's unfair.

209
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It's a bit more.

210
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I idolise.

211
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I idolise, Katie, because people have seen it, but...

212
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You and Jim Stuart Thurlow.

213
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Well, I only said I was doing Stuart Phil when Annelise was there as Katie as well.

214
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So, you know, but I want to embarrass her.

215
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No, exactly.

216
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I don't want to show her up.

217
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Some people might have thought that one of you carried off a little more convincing.

218
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Well, Katie, I'm not going to say.

219
00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:03.539
Katie said that I was the most screen accurate.

220
00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:04.440
I had the hair.

221
00:15:04.620 --> 00:15:08.279
Actually, But...

222
00:15:08.700 --> 00:15:15.720
But this is also the era of Doctor Who, the early 1970s, it was my favourite as Charles.

223
00:15:15.779 --> 00:15:16.919
It's not my favourite now.

224
00:15:16.980 --> 00:15:21.299
My favourite now is Patsyera, mainly for Pat, because it's your favourite, Richard. scripts aren't always great.

225
00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:25.980
But he's wonderful, which has been parallelled recently by Matt Smith, in my opinion.

226
00:15:26.039 --> 00:15:30.179
You know, his scripts aren't always great, but he is never anything less than ripped.

227
00:15:30.299 --> 00:15:36.419
And we're learning just how quickly they were having to run those things off, the period of it, pretty much like Pat's era.

228
00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:38.039
So there are lots of mirrors to that as well.

229
00:15:38.100 --> 00:15:39.360
Which doctor?

230
00:15:39.539 --> 00:15:41.100
Is better.

231
00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:42.240
Ooh.

232
00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:44.399
Which area?

233
00:15:44.460 --> 00:15:45.539
You see that?

234
00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:45.960
Okay.

235
00:15:46.019 --> 00:15:48.120
Can you scale that, though, one to the other?

236
00:15:48.179 --> 00:15:49.620
Is that a fair question?

237
00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:51.299
Like, you know, of course it is, yeah.

238
00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:52.980
Can you get an answer?

239
00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:58.200
Pat's a better actor or he's more convincing or compelling to watch.

240
00:15:58.259 --> 00:16:00.419
He's certainly playing a part.

241
00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:01.559
Pat's extraordinary.

242
00:16:01.620 --> 00:16:02.399
He's a different actor.

243
00:16:02.460 --> 00:16:03.960
Yeah, he's a great actor.

244
00:16:04.019 --> 00:16:07.440
I really like Hartner as the doctor, though, an enormous amount.

245
00:16:07.500 --> 00:16:09.240
I love that conception of the character.

246
00:16:09.299 --> 00:16:13.559
And I have an affection for heart in a way that I don't quite for Pat.

247
00:16:13.620 --> 00:16:25.019
I think Pat is better and Pat is the template from which everyone else, everyone says this, but the template from which everyone else derives their performance of who the doctor is.

248
00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:33.480
But aren't always so lovely and so kind of whimsical and funny and yeah, Anna Kirk would agree with everything.

249
00:16:33.539 --> 00:16:35.759
Yes, yeah, no, well, I got this one.

250
00:16:35.820 --> 00:16:38.700
And I think his era is better.

251
00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:40.559
I think that, you know, it's technically worse.

252
00:16:40.620 --> 00:16:41.340
You know what I mean?

253
00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:43.259
The show looks better in the trout near up.

254
00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:45.720
You know, production, how use a better, all of that sort of thing.

255
00:16:45.779 --> 00:16:49.799
It's a truism to say that production values get a better year over year.

256
00:16:49.980 --> 00:16:54.360
And I've said this before, the Huntl era is more experimental.

257
00:16:54.419 --> 00:16:59.700
It does more interesting things and and and especially under verity.

258
00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:01.200
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

259
00:17:01.259 --> 00:17:01.679
Yeah, yeah.

260
00:17:01.740 --> 00:17:04.680
I think really that's the reason it's still going, it's very.

261
00:17:04.740 --> 00:17:05.519
Yeah I agree.

262
00:17:05.579 --> 00:17:10.079
Yeah, because Verity did so many different things in 2 years.

263
00:17:10.500 --> 00:17:16.859
There was never really an opportunity in those 1st 2 years to sum up the program in one sentence.

264
00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:17.160
No.

265
00:17:17.220 --> 00:17:20.099
It had a sense of mystery, didn't it?

266
00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:26.460
And it kept supplying that when you thought you knew what it was or when the production team had made a decision and the doctor is this sort of person.

267
00:17:26.519 --> 00:17:28.799
They would jump again.

268
00:17:28.859 --> 00:17:33.359
It was a risk taking thing every, every, really every story.

269
00:17:33.420 --> 00:17:41.400
That's why that's why watching them in isolation or seeing them as we've seen them compared to, as you were saying, in isolation through the wonderful gift of the randomiser.

270
00:17:41.460 --> 00:17:55.680
So... is a very different thing because the beauty of it is that when you see the time meddler is actually really startling and extraordinary in between the stories that says, coming at the end of a season.

271
00:17:55.740 --> 00:17:56.460
Wow.

272
00:17:56.579 --> 00:17:57.480
I didn't expect that.

273
00:17:57.539 --> 00:17:58.380
I didn't expect this.

274
00:17:58.440 --> 00:18:00.359
I didn't expect you. expect a week before.

275
00:18:00.420 --> 00:18:07.200
There's a freshness that we still get in our jaded, oversaturated, commercially concentrated times.

276
00:18:07.259 --> 00:18:14.640
We just get that this is, it may be simpler, but there's a lot of, you know, a lot of complexity in that simplicity.

277
00:18:14.700 --> 00:18:15.960
I just want to shoot myself for saying that.

278
00:18:17.220 --> 00:18:18.299
But there is.

279
00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:28.619
There's a, and I actually find that something that's, I, we get that they were on a knife edge and that they were taking a risk every time and that I think makes it slightly more compelling to watch.

280
00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:34.559
That's compared to the later 60s when they were working towards overseas sales and making it more formulaic.

281
00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:37.619
And it just becomes a bit, it's the way of doing TV.

282
00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:39.180
Back then.

283
00:18:39.240 --> 00:18:50.099
What I think is so interesting is that I've really got, and it's probably come across just a whole flavour of the times and how quickly they were a changing Mr. Dylan at the time.

284
00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:52.259
Every few months. totally different.

285
00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:59.279
And the pop music reflects it and the the politics reflects that the empire was falling apart. technology was coming in.

286
00:18:59.339 --> 00:19:00.299
We had a space program.

287
00:19:00.359 --> 00:19:03.180
We had a cold war that was spinning apparently out of control.

288
00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:05.279
Lots of different things all happening at once.

289
00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:07.740
And the show miraculously somehow.

290
00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:09.779
For me reflects it better than anything else.

291
00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:14.220
Perhaps because of its consistency that it was there for so long.

292
00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:21.839
But I just think it was responsive and maybe unconsciously, but it really, it really does show as a shadow mirror of the time.

293
00:19:21.900 --> 00:19:23.339
I get out of it.

294
00:19:23.400 --> 00:19:25.140
Did you expect that going into this journey?

295
00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:26.700
I really didn't know.

296
00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:32.339
Is that your greatest revelation in terms of what you've discovered about Doctor Who?

297
00:19:32.460 --> 00:19:35.339
My greatest surprise is that there's more to discover.

298
00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:37.799
I really didn't think there'd be anything else in it.

299
00:19:37.859 --> 00:19:42.059
I remember you saying that when we started it. like behind the scenes.

300
00:19:42.119 --> 00:19:53.640
I remember you saying, no, I remember you saying to me, you know, this is going to be fun, but do you think we're going to turn up stuff that people don't know or haven't thought about?

301
00:19:53.700 --> 00:19:54.299
Yeah.

302
00:19:54.299 --> 00:19:59.460
And I think you've turned up most of it because you do all the research in historic.

303
00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:06.720
Yeah, it's also just I'm surprised to find that these things are triggered in my re-listening or reviewing. or rereading.

304
00:20:06.779 --> 00:20:12.960
I like to sort of come to it as I did, like at the time, as I did as a child, which is through the target books.

305
00:20:13.019 --> 00:20:16.859
So I'll have a quick look at the TV that's the target books of the go to for me.

306
00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:19.140
Do you still have a collection?

307
00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:19.619
everything.

308
00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:24.299
Gary Russell's collection of every known language in Christendom, but and beyond.

309
00:20:24.359 --> 00:20:26.880
But heathen languages too, doesn't he?

310
00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:30.359
And have the target...

311
00:20:30.420 --> 00:20:31.619
Do you know how?

312
00:20:31.619 --> 00:20:33.180
I'm missing 2 of them.

313
00:20:33.240 --> 00:20:33.900
Really?

314
00:20:34.019 --> 00:20:37.859
Yeah, I'm missing the arc and I'm missing a celestial time maker.

315
00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:38.759
I thought I could go.

316
00:20:38.819 --> 00:20:39.599
Well, my father.

317
00:20:39.900 --> 00:20:42.000
Well, we know that one of them people will remain missing.

318
00:20:42.059 --> 00:20:44.579
So what's your greatest revelation?

319
00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:56.759
For me, the revelation is just learning the shape of the show, and it is that thing which you'll get anyone would get if you were to watch it in order rather than watch it as, you know, using the randomiser, as Richard said.

320
00:20:56.819 --> 00:21:06.240
And so seeing how, sort of, it's tentative in season one, but kind of brilliant and then in season 2 it's really confident and it really hits its stride.

321
00:21:06.299 --> 00:21:07.619
It's, you know, just tremendous.

322
00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:15.660
And then series 3 is, you know, full of production problems and it's flailing and it's kind of going nasty and it's not sure what it's doing.

323
00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:19.079
And then season 4 is sort of trying to get back on track.

324
00:21:19.380 --> 00:21:26.460
Season 5 is settling into a sort of terrible formula and season 6 is sort of breaking free from that.

325
00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:29.099
I didn't really know that narrative before.

326
00:21:29.160 --> 00:21:37.980
And that's terribly oversimplified, obviously, but learning that and just getting to know what all the characters were like.

327
00:21:38.039 --> 00:21:47.279
You know, I'd seen Vicki in, you know, a handful of things, I'd seen Dodo in the ark and that's about it, old war machines, half of war machines, poor old Sow.

328
00:21:50.460 --> 00:21:54.119
And I really think that's going to still be in it.

329
00:21:54.180 --> 00:21:56.460
Well, there's, I was listening.

330
00:21:56.519 --> 00:21:59.579
There's no there's no there's no point for me to cut that.

331
00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:03.599
That's all right. talking about Jackie Lane.

332
00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:05.880
I'll ejaculate.

333
00:22:05.940 --> 00:22:07.079
I'm just gorgeous.

334
00:22:07.140 --> 00:22:09.539
I'm talking about, I'm talking about Dodo.

335
00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:11.339
Do you know what might be fresh and wonderful?

336
00:22:11.400 --> 00:22:12.720
Not at all changing the point.

337
00:22:12.779 --> 00:22:20.519
You know, I'd like to, you know, because I think everyone's probably hurt us to the point of every family Christmas that they've ever experienced all that again.

338
00:22:20.579 --> 00:22:23.099
Yes, we're recording your sister after Christmas.

339
00:22:23.160 --> 00:22:24.660
I'd like to know what toys got out of it.

340
00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:29.819
How fantastic to hear a fresh voice. normally my job.

341
00:22:29.880 --> 00:22:39.900
I think it's just that the wonder of the discovery of all these different aspects, especially to the hardcore era and the different characters and the different viewpoints that you've...

342
00:22:40.019 --> 00:22:41.519
I love.

343
00:22:41.579 --> 00:22:43.440
I really, really love him.

344
00:22:43.500 --> 00:22:45.000
I just think he's glorious.

345
00:22:45.059 --> 00:22:47.160
I do not to, yeah.

346
00:22:47.220 --> 00:23:00.779
I mean, I think Pat's tremendous, but I think The freshness of the storms in our area and the fact that you're going historical and then they're trying some sort of different sci-fi that's not embedded into a Doctor Who pattern. is just wondrous.

347
00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:04.559
And you know, sometimes it doesn't succeed, but they're in there giving it their rule.

348
00:23:04.619 --> 00:23:18.779
I mean, you suddenly get into Patrick's era and the moon-based macro terror suddenly hears the formula that we're now going through and for me, I find that like Nathan in season 5 very tiresome at times.

349
00:23:19.500 --> 00:23:22.019
I'm going to take a drink.

350
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:28.920
Patrick's mesmerising watch, you know, he is, isn't he?

351
00:23:28.980 --> 00:23:33.960
That you've challenged me on different things to go back and look at things like sense rights.

352
00:23:34.019 --> 00:23:39.059
And I will go back now and look at Victoria and her Jack to see what.

353
00:23:39.059 --> 00:23:41.339
She's like...

354
00:23:41.339 --> 00:23:43.319
How poor is she's served by the script?

355
00:23:43.319 --> 00:23:43.920
She's terrible.

356
00:23:47.460 --> 00:23:52.680
I've seen those stories out of sequence, different ones out of sequences, and I just loathe the character.

357
00:23:52.740 --> 00:24:01.619
But when any of the world turned up and there's that moment where she almost slaps the doctor, I suddenly jumped out of my skins and went, hang on, what's this?

358
00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:05.940
She is my least favourite companion of the trout era.

359
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:08.099
That's a fair call, too, that she's so poor.

360
00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:08.880
I'm sorry.

361
00:24:08.940 --> 00:24:10.079
If I might jump off from there.

362
00:24:10.140 --> 00:24:14.460
I'm getting back to a place where you asked earlier, sort of what have we discovered about the 60s.

363
00:24:14.519 --> 00:24:26.940
What I've really taken away from this is, you know, for years we've heard Carol Anne Ford, talking about how poorly served Susan was, and that's why she left, because she was promised she'd be like an Avengers girl with fabulous psychic powers...

364
00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:30.599
I thought more like chocky or more like one of the, yeah, surprise.

365
00:24:30.660 --> 00:24:31.559
Cuckoo.

366
00:24:31.619 --> 00:24:32.519
Yeah exactly.

367
00:24:32.579 --> 00:24:35.220
And in between a person and something we don't know anything about.

368
00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:41.339
She actually references Kathy Gale was said to her as, this will be a touchstone of your character.

369
00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:42.720
You'll be like Kathy Gale.

370
00:24:42.779 --> 00:24:44.039
And of course, what he got is very different.

371
00:24:44.099 --> 00:24:54.539
Now, the thing is, the mould, which is. you say that too, because the dramatist, you know, that, that, on a black one puts the drama that Anna Blackman puts into her character.

372
00:24:54.599 --> 00:24:55.980
It's not that she's just cool.

373
00:24:56.039 --> 00:25:01.920
She's a little bit edgy and if you watch those black and white avengers and she kind of, it's always pitched.

374
00:25:01.980 --> 00:25:11.940
Now you say that, I can actually see something where Carol I thought it was coming from because it's always a little bit over the, you know, I mean, it looks kind of over the top and a Doctor Who situation, but in the Avengers.

375
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:17.700
Kathy's always pushing against what she sees as Steve's complete effrontery and disinteresting humanity.

376
00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:20.819
And yeah, that's an interesting take.

377
00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:27.119
Now, the thing is, Susan is say far weaker than the Mickey as a character.

378
00:25:27.180 --> 00:25:30.960
You know, don't we don't really see as much of dodo to comment.

379
00:25:31.019 --> 00:25:32.579
But Susan is...

380
00:25:32.579 --> 00:25:33.180
She's terrible.

381
00:25:34.859 --> 00:25:42.960
In terms of the power of the character. both in narrative and in what they're given to do.

382
00:25:43.019 --> 00:25:49.319
Susan is the weakest, but really it's not, it's not the role of the companion who changes.

383
00:25:49.380 --> 00:25:55.859
So what I've really discovered, is the strength, particularly of the female characters comes from the performance of the artist.

384
00:25:55.920 --> 00:26:06.960
And that is in itself imbued directly by the interest and attention paid by the director and the strength of the producers in backing up the original intent.

385
00:26:07.019 --> 00:26:07.559
Absolutely.

386
00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:09.180
Because with Victoria, for instance.

387
00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:11.700
A lot of what I said about Victorian, you picked up on this, Nathan.

388
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:27.660
What I was reading was not the script, it was not the text, it was the subtext that Deborah Watley put into the performance, because Deborah Watley... seemed to look at what was on the page and find a way to play it where she could be scared, but she could be determined and intelligent at the same time.

389
00:26:27.779 --> 00:26:34.980
And we forget she'd had more onscreen experience and theatre experience than any of the other younger actors up to that point.

390
00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:36.720
As you say, she was a prestige.

391
00:26:36.779 --> 00:26:37.559
Yeah, apparently.

392
00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:38.579
Prestige casting.

393
00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:43.980
And really why this is so important to me is outside of Doctor Who's Science Fiction, my other passion is video gaming.

394
00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:51.660
And there has recently been a scandal in video gaming known as Gamer Gate, which some people claim, oh, it's about ethics in video gaming.

395
00:26:51.720 --> 00:26:52.799
Yeah, you may not hope about this.

396
00:26:52.859 --> 00:27:01.259
But what it's really about is Women in video game journalism, video game, development, being treated horribly.

397
00:27:01.319 --> 00:27:02.759
We are talking.

398
00:27:02.819 --> 00:27:10.619
There's one called Anita Sakesian, who does this amazing series of videos about the role of women in video games as characters.

399
00:27:10.680 --> 00:27:12.119
I'll put them in the show notes.

400
00:27:12.180 --> 00:27:13.259
I've actually watched a bunch of them.

401
00:27:13.319 --> 00:27:14.339
I think they're fascinating.

402
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:18.720
I'm not a gamer, but I think they're pretty good media criticism and they're she's fabulous.

403
00:27:18.779 --> 00:27:19.440
I really like it.

404
00:27:19.500 --> 00:27:20.160
I love to read that.

405
00:27:20.220 --> 00:27:23.819
And what is great about her videos is that...

406
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:26.759
While she is criticising and judging.

407
00:27:26.819 --> 00:27:28.380
She is very objective in her judgement.

408
00:27:28.440 --> 00:27:31.680
And she says of herself, you know, I love video games.

409
00:27:31.740 --> 00:27:39.359
I love Mario Games, but they have very questionable sexual politics and it's apparent that she loves them too, that she comes at it from a sort of game's perspective.

410
00:27:39.420 --> 00:27:41.279
And you know, what she gets out of this.

411
00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:44.400
As well as lots of people liking her.

412
00:27:44.460 --> 00:27:54.779
She gets a small selection of people, Tweeting her death threats, posting her address and contact details online and asking people to go around and sort her out.

413
00:27:54.839 --> 00:27:57.420
And this is for excitement.

414
00:27:57.480 --> 00:28:00.000
Oh, but, you know, this is quite serious.

415
00:28:00.059 --> 00:28:09.839
And even though it is a small amount, Once someone posts your address online, says where your partner works, says where your child goes to school, has happened to some women in the gaming industry.

416
00:28:09.900 --> 00:28:11.400
This is why.

417
00:28:12.299 --> 00:28:18.900
Representation of female characters is so important to me and why I've been looking at it because this other world that I love.

418
00:28:19.500 --> 00:28:31.380
People are trying to keep women down and I'm always, I'm always very self-conscious about talking about how women are represented in doctor because I'm worried it'll come off as mansplaining.

419
00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:33.539
You know, I'm a man talking about women's issues.

420
00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:35.759
It's extraordinary we should even have to raise it.

421
00:28:35.819 --> 00:28:38.099
Yeah, I think that's it.

422
00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:39.299
I'll let alone that.

423
00:28:39.299 --> 00:28:41.039
I raise it because I have to.

424
00:28:41.099 --> 00:28:44.220
I hate having to raise it. isn't she, isn't it?

425
00:28:44.339 --> 00:29:07.259
I mean, and let alone the queer politics, which of course only exists because and feminism, which only exists because of black politics, you know, as we talked about this, It's actually the equality, right, Super Malcolm X, and Martin Luther King and those fantastic riots in Chicago in the early 60s that created feminism and are on the back of that queer politic dynamics.

426
00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:10.019
So, yeah, there's a great causal loop, I'm up between them all.

427
00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:13.920
So do we think that it gets better over the 60s?

428
00:29:13.980 --> 00:29:16.559
The representation of women in Doctor Who?

429
00:29:16.619 --> 00:29:17.460
I do think it does.

430
00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:33.000
I mean, I think it gets better from when Susan is right now, and I don't quite not because of Susan, but I do think Vicki is treated better in the story, but I also think Maureen O'Brien realises the part is limited and puts in the strength where she can.

431
00:29:33.059 --> 00:29:39.059
Whereas I think Carol Anne Ford was perhaps more expecting the strength to be given to her from the script.

432
00:29:39.119 --> 00:29:47.579
That's a really great way of looking at it, maybe Carol Anne's own take on it, and within the production crew, was more complaintive and combative and disappointed.

433
00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:53.460
Whereas most you're saying, Lauren O'Brien is seeing it as a jobbing thing and she didn't see this as a great opportunity.

434
00:29:53.519 --> 00:29:55.920
She just saw this as something I'll do and do and get on with it.

435
00:29:55.980 --> 00:30:06.420
And as she said, most of her time I spent nursemaid in Billy and he's constant states of, of, you know, discomfort with the, with the production team once there at the left.

436
00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:14.940
Plus, you know, we saw the 60s with Barbara, who can who can baffle Daleks with historical techno battle.

437
00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:16.079
Thank you for bringing her on.

438
00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:24.539
And we end up with Zoe, who can blow up a computer by talking to it and take out an entire cyberfleet without 3 missiles. beat up the carcass.

439
00:30:24.599 --> 00:30:25.799
And beat up the carcass.

440
00:30:25.859 --> 00:30:27.480
That is a fabulous spicy.

441
00:30:27.539 --> 00:30:33.000
You know, every move she does, she throws it back over her shoulder, a little quip off, lesson 72.

442
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:38.039
All right, so we're moving on talking about companions.

443
00:30:38.099 --> 00:30:40.200
I'm going to ask the obvious question.

444
00:30:40.259 --> 00:30:41.819
Who was the best companion of the series?

445
00:30:41.880 --> 00:30:43.200
Barbara, Barbara.

446
00:30:43.259 --> 00:30:45.480
And it comes right back to what you were just saying.

447
00:30:45.539 --> 00:30:52.079
Maybe the setup of the character of reinstating the lost granddaughter every time, which is why it's wrong to snog them.

448
00:30:52.500 --> 00:30:58.859
She's not, she's there as a representative, as an Adam Brant of your lost granddaughter.

449
00:30:58.920 --> 00:30:59.519
Stop it.

450
00:30:59.579 --> 00:31:06.059
I didn't have a few lots of fine doctors the other week and you should see how Carol Anne Thorn and Peter Davidson look each other up and now.

451
00:31:06.059 --> 00:31:10.079
That's all I'm saying.

452
00:31:13.140 --> 00:31:14.940
That's that movie story along.

453
00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:18.240
That's the greatest loss of the 60s that they got rid of the mum character.

454
00:31:18.299 --> 00:31:30.420
They got rid of the middle theme, the middle-aged, I don't know what to say that term, but the older female companion, who lent purpose and humanity, David Hume levels of humanity to the whole thing.

455
00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:32.579
The little girl is fine, but you want the balance.

456
00:31:32.579 --> 00:31:58.859
We've actually lost a whole portion of representation of women in this by losing any woman over just post pubescent. that must inform in some way the revival, the 2005 revival, because I think that one of the best things about seasons, your series one and two. is Camille Kaburi's character Jackie.

457
00:31:58.920 --> 00:32:01.980
And and she, she's mumsy.

458
00:32:02.039 --> 00:32:11.880
And literally, I mean, the companion's mother, which we've never had before, and the 1st flirtation on New Who is not between the companion and the doctor.

459
00:32:13.140 --> 00:32:15.539
I'm in my dressing gown.

460
00:32:16.440 --> 00:32:18.900
Sorry, I wasn't quoting that.

461
00:32:19.920 --> 00:32:28.380
Not only that, but if you look at the new series, the most popular series, critically, and in terms of ratings.

462
00:32:28.440 --> 00:32:37.559
Series 4 with Catherine Tate, who is the most popular big Finnish companion, Dr. Evelyn is played by the very sad, late Maggie Sage.

463
00:32:37.619 --> 00:32:40.440
I was just going to say, isn't Collins fantastic in those?

464
00:32:40.500 --> 00:32:45.539
I've really come to admire and respect Colin Baker because of those and how poorly he was served.

465
00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:46.859
And what do you think, Billy, again?

466
00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:51.599
I can see where Colin was trying to come from, which I didn't get in the 80s because I hadn't seen a Billy one.

467
00:32:51.660 --> 00:32:56.880
It is also that Billy is actually really rather sweet and silly and funny and childlike as well.

468
00:32:56.940 --> 00:32:58.200
Col is funny.

469
00:32:58.259 --> 00:33:04.559
I think he's probably the, as long of all the actors, the wittiest and most, most numerous in their offs, right?

470
00:33:04.619 --> 00:33:10.920
It's that lovely monologue in the 2 doctors when he thinks the universe is going to end and all he can think about is there won't be any more butterflies.

471
00:33:10.980 --> 00:33:13.859
You know, he does get lovely little moments.

472
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:15.059
The man himself is great.

473
00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:16.079
I come back too with you.

474
00:33:16.140 --> 00:33:23.400
You've got to have directors and production stuff and script editors that like you and care about your character because otherwise there's not much an actor can do to read the lines.

475
00:33:23.460 --> 00:33:27.720
All right, it's time for a snog, Mario, void question.

476
00:33:27.779 --> 00:33:29.759
This is Nathan.

477
00:33:29.819 --> 00:33:31.500
Don't know Susan Victoria.

478
00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:34.440
Dodo, Susan Victoria.

479
00:33:34.500 --> 00:33:35.579
So very avoid.

480
00:33:35.700 --> 00:33:37.440
Well...

481
00:33:37.740 --> 00:33:41.940
I think I'd have to marry Victoria because...

482
00:33:41.940 --> 00:33:42.480
She's rich.

483
00:33:42.539 --> 00:33:43.559
Well.

484
00:33:43.619 --> 00:33:51.119
She's got that big house, servants, they make those puddings, you know, like...

485
00:33:51.180 --> 00:33:53.640
So I'd avoid dodo, obviously.

486
00:33:54.660 --> 00:33:56.400
All costs.

487
00:33:56.460 --> 00:34:05.640
And so I would have to close my eyes, think of think of morphism and snob, snob, Susan, I'm afraid.

488
00:34:05.700 --> 00:34:07.380
Close your eyes, think of Barbara, really?

489
00:34:07.500 --> 00:34:09.300
Yes, that's what I do.

490
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:12.539
Maybe if I could get Susan to wear a cardigan.

491
00:34:12.599 --> 00:34:13.440
Yeah there you go.

492
00:34:13.500 --> 00:34:14.219
Yeah, okay.

493
00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:14.880
No problem.

494
00:34:14.940 --> 00:34:15.659
Red shit.

495
00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:20.340
Sog marry, avoid.

496
00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:24.000
John Wiles, Ennis Lloyd or Peter Bryant.

497
00:34:24.059 --> 00:34:25.920
Good God.

498
00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:30.960
Well, I think you'd actually have to snob Peter Bryant because he had the biggest drinks cabinet.

499
00:34:32.099 --> 00:34:36.059
And there'd just be he'd be a great party.

500
00:34:36.119 --> 00:34:39.719
And it's interesting that Brian, well, you know, Bryant's the reason Pat left.

501
00:34:39.780 --> 00:34:40.619
We've talked about that.

502
00:34:40.679 --> 00:34:43.019
It's open knowledge now, so it's okay to speak about it.

503
00:34:43.139 --> 00:34:55.500
Anyway, that's a sad thing, but he also is, it was incredibly sensitive and when Witty and the reason he got those jobs and what we can see of other people talking about his work, he's really good, but, you know, a lot of creative people are also pretty destructive.

504
00:34:55.559 --> 00:34:56.820
So you'd be great to party with.

505
00:34:56.880 --> 00:34:58.440
Um, I don't know.

506
00:34:58.500 --> 00:34:59.340
Does that mean kiss?

507
00:34:59.400 --> 00:35:07.079
I think it does John Miles, I just look at what he did and the decisions he made and when we go to, you know, admirant racism.

508
00:35:07.139 --> 00:35:07.860
He's our go to.

509
00:35:07.860 --> 00:35:11.340
And we blame him for being, you know, this is the South African thing at the time.

510
00:35:11.340 --> 00:35:12.599
That was all changing and what.

511
00:35:12.659 --> 00:35:17.940
But he also did a theatre for the deaf children and actually did a lot for people.

512
00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:30.179
As it turns out, you know, that we're less fortunate, but he's actually more more interesting and there's more side stream like everybody, I guess, but then you've got, but I'm certainly not going to marry.

513
00:35:30.179 --> 00:35:31.559
We're heading towards a boy.

514
00:35:31.619 --> 00:35:33.360
I'm not going to marry him.

515
00:35:33.420 --> 00:35:35.340
And the other one you said was in as Lloyd.

516
00:35:35.400 --> 00:35:40.619
I see of the of the 3 wonderful choices you've handed over.

517
00:35:40.679 --> 00:35:45.840
Such a God, a smoggish build, that one would make that star that day.

518
00:35:45.900 --> 00:35:53.699
Um, Innes Lloyd seems to have less excuse than any of the others, but the decisions that were made.

519
00:35:53.699 --> 00:35:58.739
And his treatment of senior cast from what we know now.

520
00:35:58.800 --> 00:35:59.579
I'm really...

521
00:35:59.579 --> 00:36:02.579
See, my heart goes to Billy.

522
00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:05.940
So anyone who treated Billy Pauly gets short shrift from me.

523
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:09.059
Maybe you could marry Innes Lloyd and just make his life a mission.

524
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:13.800
No, I actually think I think Enos, I'm sorry, but like wage level psychological.

525
00:36:13.860 --> 00:36:15.119
That's been engulfing.

526
00:36:15.179 --> 00:36:15.599
That's it.

527
00:36:15.659 --> 00:36:19.800
The trash compact is coming closer. and you're sitting in the Buick. it's, you know, Cheers.

528
00:36:19.860 --> 00:36:22.079
Thanks for the memories, but see you.

529
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:26.940
John Wiles, I think, is actually a better and more interesting person than he was.

530
00:36:26.940 --> 00:36:29.400
And he, I think he later said, it's an indeed WN.

531
00:36:29.460 --> 00:36:35.940
But yeah, he felt he was pushing against, you know, she'll, you know, she'll wait with the BBC and the things he wanted to do.

532
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:38.760
Wasn't his classic story, the one he wanted to make the arc?

533
00:36:38.820 --> 00:36:40.980
Wasn't that his favourite?

534
00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:42.059
Yeah, John Wales, wasn't that?

535
00:36:42.119 --> 00:36:42.960
was his fantasy story.

536
00:36:43.019 --> 00:36:47.639
And it's actually a great, you know, it goes back to the Halcyon days of SS.

537
00:36:47.699 --> 00:36:51.480
Yeah, I think I think Wales was a lot more interesting than he was able to get across.

538
00:36:51.539 --> 00:36:52.739
I probably end up marrying him.

539
00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:58.079
I'm not saying it's good. more of a Tom and Lala marriage than Lala and Richmond marriage.

540
00:36:58.139 --> 00:37:00.179
So you're marrying you're marrying...

541
00:37:00.239 --> 00:37:01.019
Oh, marry wise.

542
00:37:01.079 --> 00:37:02.039
I think he's more interesting.

543
00:37:02.099 --> 00:37:03.000
Lloyd has to die.

544
00:37:03.059 --> 00:37:03.539
Sorry, sorry.

545
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:04.380
Who's avoided?

546
00:37:04.440 --> 00:37:06.539
I don't definitely have a party with Peter Bryant.

547
00:37:07.260 --> 00:37:10.559
Wow, I'm surprised by those.

548
00:37:10.619 --> 00:37:11.760
Brandon.

549
00:37:11.820 --> 00:37:12.360
Oh, dear.

550
00:37:12.420 --> 00:37:15.000
So, Mari avoid, heart or Trouton or Cushing?

551
00:37:15.059 --> 00:37:15.719
Wow.

552
00:37:16.019 --> 00:37:18.000
Oh, I'm sorry.

553
00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:20.460
It's just pull the gravy overboard.

554
00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:21.599
This is going.

555
00:37:21.659 --> 00:37:25.320
Actually, I mean, this is surprisingly simple for me.

556
00:37:25.380 --> 00:37:30.360
I'd married Peter Cushion because he's got such a wonderful voice and by all accounts had a very gentle nature.

557
00:37:30.420 --> 00:37:32.280
A really fristly moustache.

558
00:37:32.340 --> 00:37:34.619
I thought I was an Edmond Warwick.

559
00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:38.579
We're getting it.

560
00:37:38.579 --> 00:37:39.539
We're all adopters.

561
00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:42.239
So we're getting ahead of ourselves with that silver fox.

562
00:37:42.360 --> 00:37:44.460
So, right.

563
00:37:45.059 --> 00:37:47.460
Snog, it would have to be Patrick.

564
00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:49.739
So I would snog Patty.

565
00:37:49.800 --> 00:37:52.019
Because he's kind of really well practised sort of thing.

566
00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:53.820
I expect he's got mad skills.

567
00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:59.880
Bet teeth and bits. the criteria Richard was going for, he'd be the most fun to party with.

568
00:37:59.940 --> 00:38:01.260
I'll play all accounts.

569
00:38:01.320 --> 00:38:03.059
So it'll be Snow Patrick.

570
00:38:03.119 --> 00:38:06.599
Mary Cushing, avoid Hartnall, but only by the...

571
00:38:06.659 --> 00:38:08.039
Only by the whole.

572
00:38:08.099 --> 00:38:10.679
If, you know, if it was strong married, take out for a nice lunch.

573
00:38:11.820 --> 00:38:14.940
That part was to be taken out for a nice lunch.

574
00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:16.920
Okay, Nathan, you ready?

575
00:38:16.980 --> 00:38:22.260
The singing sands, the screaming jungle or the bell of doom.

576
00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:22.920
Wow.

577
00:38:22.980 --> 00:38:25.980
Oh, God, what's the bell do?

578
00:38:26.099 --> 00:38:28.320
Is that from the smugglers?

579
00:38:28.380 --> 00:38:28.739
No.

580
00:38:29.579 --> 00:38:30.659
Which one?

581
00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:32.280
Oh, my God.

582
00:38:32.940 --> 00:38:38.280
The same sense that's from Marco Molo.

583
00:38:38.820 --> 00:38:42.119
The screaming jungle is, well, that's that married.

584
00:38:42.179 --> 00:38:47.099
Toby Hader has just thrown his iPod across the room in disgust again because you didn't know.

585
00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:48.539
I didn't know the episode titles.

586
00:38:48.599 --> 00:38:50.039
So, Jeremy Motion.

587
00:38:50.099 --> 00:38:51.300
I think it's awesome.

588
00:38:51.420 --> 00:38:56.280
So Snog, in the sense that it would be fun.

589
00:38:56.880 --> 00:39:01.320
I think it has to be the screaming jungle, I hope it's not because I just love it today.

590
00:39:01.380 --> 00:39:02.579
It's so fun.

591
00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:07.619
It is so fun, but I kind of recognise that it's a bit cramp and perhaps not the basis for a long-term relationship.

592
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:08.400
Okay.

593
00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:14.099
Marco Polo is the 1st doctor who story that I watched exclusively for the podcast that I'd never seen before.

594
00:39:14.159 --> 00:39:16.980
And I was astounded by how much I liked it.

595
00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:20.519
You know, I think it is really good and it's sort of worthy and stuff.

596
00:39:20.579 --> 00:39:21.599
So I'd marry that.

597
00:39:21.659 --> 00:39:23.519
And then the bell of doom.

598
00:39:23.579 --> 00:39:30.960
I mean, I have to say that, and I was speaking to friend of the podcast, Peter Griffiths, and he concurs with me.

599
00:39:31.019 --> 00:39:35.639
I just think the message is a low Voltosh, and I will die before I ever see it again, I think.

600
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:36.719
Richard.

601
00:39:36.780 --> 00:39:38.400
Stop marrying a boy.

602
00:39:38.460 --> 00:39:39.420
Ian?

603
00:39:39.659 --> 00:39:41.219
Ben.

604
00:39:41.219 --> 00:39:42.840
Jamie.

605
00:39:42.900 --> 00:39:45.059
It's not a real contest. is it?

606
00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:46.139
Where's Stephen in that?

607
00:39:46.199 --> 00:39:47.699
Well, what are the name?

608
00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:50.340
Well, I've been.

609
00:39:53.400 --> 00:39:56.460
The most pneumatic of the...

610
00:39:56.579 --> 00:39:58.260
He's the only one who gets his knocks out as well.

611
00:39:58.320 --> 00:39:59.820
I think it's a win.

612
00:39:59.880 --> 00:40:00.599
Smugglers.

613
00:40:00.659 --> 00:40:00.900
Yeah.

614
00:40:00.900 --> 00:40:02.219
He gets...

615
00:40:02.280 --> 00:40:03.119
That's a very blurry.

616
00:40:03.119 --> 00:40:07.380
A couple of very blurry toes now, but do carry on...

617
00:40:07.380 --> 00:40:09.300
She's, I'll toss him up to you when I'm done.

618
00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:11.340
I think he's the best actor.

619
00:40:11.400 --> 00:40:14.820
And I know I tend to like to find the pearls in the grit.

620
00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:21.719
We don't get to see a lot of Michael Crace's performance in it, but what he does do, he's really good.

621
00:40:21.780 --> 00:40:25.920
He's the kind of he's the Australian pilot on the moon base, isn't he?

622
00:40:25.980 --> 00:40:30.000
He's the he's the nictate of early Doctor Who.

623
00:40:30.059 --> 00:40:32.519
He's just, you know, his performance keeps getting cut back.

624
00:40:32.579 --> 00:40:33.480
Ben's gorgeous.

625
00:40:33.539 --> 00:40:34.320
Who wouldn't song him?

626
00:40:34.380 --> 00:40:37.260
I think he's, I think he's interesting and I probably end up probably sogging him then.

627
00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:37.980
Marrying him.

628
00:40:38.039 --> 00:40:38.880
Can I have 2 on the side?

629
00:40:38.940 --> 00:40:40.559
Can I have a Polly?

630
00:40:40.679 --> 00:40:41.579
Why not?

631
00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:46.800
Ian is amazing. and interesting.

632
00:40:46.860 --> 00:40:49.980
I think, I don't know that I don't know political.

633
00:40:50.039 --> 00:40:51.719
Yeah, look, he's certainly old schooler.

634
00:40:51.780 --> 00:41:01.500
I don't have any sort of interest on Ian other than a great deal of respect, which is probably a perfect marriage, really, because you get the sex outside of marriage, can't you?

635
00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:02.519
Very more than no.

636
00:41:02.579 --> 00:41:05.820
Um, so, Jamie, that's a that's a snog.

637
00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:09.539
Somebody.

638
00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:10.860
Can you snug them and kill them?

639
00:41:12.239 --> 00:41:14.519
It's not an option.

640
00:41:14.579 --> 00:41:17.340
Yeah, look, I love it. you've only got married in a family.

641
00:41:17.400 --> 00:41:18.480
Well, I'm sorry.

642
00:41:18.539 --> 00:41:23.699
Okay, Fraser, I think's terrific, but then I've heard his politics and what he says about climate change and how he's in denial about that.

643
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:25.260
I'm sorry. has to die.

644
00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:30.239
Thank you.

645
00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:32.579
Brendan.

646
00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:34.139
I entered his one.

647
00:41:34.260 --> 00:41:36.300
Well, go for it.

648
00:41:36.360 --> 00:41:37.860
Actually, it'd be the same.

649
00:41:38.099 --> 00:41:43.739
I would snog them, Ben would be good for a torrid affair, but Ian's more stable, so I'd marry Ian.

650
00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:47.280
And again, I'm only avoiding Jamie by default, but I still wouldn't marry Jamie.

651
00:41:47.340 --> 00:41:50.280
Who is the most underrated companion of the 1960s?

652
00:41:50.340 --> 00:41:51.719
Polly for me?

653
00:41:51.780 --> 00:41:56.340
Because there's a there's the joke a few times so Polly put the kettle on.

654
00:41:56.400 --> 00:41:58.139
It's in at least 2 stories.

655
00:41:58.619 --> 00:42:05.460
In the smugglers, it's directly Polly put the kettle on and in the moon base, it's go and make them some coffee lighting or something.

656
00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:09.059
But old Polly and Ben, she's actually the stronger, more proactive character.

657
00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:09.659
Yeah.

658
00:42:09.659 --> 00:42:14.639
That is something that really surprised me.

659
00:42:14.699 --> 00:42:15.840
She's amazing in the Highlanders.

660
00:42:15.900 --> 00:42:17.880
She runs that show.

661
00:42:17.880 --> 00:42:18.599
With algae.

662
00:42:18.659 --> 00:42:19.440
She's really good.

663
00:42:19.500 --> 00:42:22.199
Yeah, no, she's the central companion. yeah.

664
00:42:22.260 --> 00:42:29.579
Yeah, and she does all the science-y brain box stuff with the doctor in the macro terra while Jamie is off in a cave being terrorised by monsters.

665
00:42:31.380 --> 00:42:33.539
So yeah, I would say Polly's the most underrated.

666
00:42:33.599 --> 00:42:37.500
I think she's only underrated because sadly, there is so much of her stuff missing.

667
00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:48.840
And I think, again, it comes from the actress because if you've read Anika Will's autobiography, she's an immensely strong person. with just such an amazing life.

668
00:42:48.960 --> 00:42:51.239
She's so...

669
00:42:51.300 --> 00:42:54.900
I mean, I did meet her, like, thanks to Todd.

670
00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:57.420
We talked about our past lives or her past life.

671
00:42:57.480 --> 00:42:58.559
She's just gorgeous.

672
00:42:58.619 --> 00:42:59.340
Absolutely.

673
00:42:59.460 --> 00:43:00.719
She's a warm, generous woman.

674
00:43:00.780 --> 00:43:01.559
Yeah, yeah.

675
00:43:01.619 --> 00:43:03.599
She certainly passes to the left. true.

676
00:43:03.659 --> 00:43:06.659
And for you, who's the most underrated?

677
00:43:06.719 --> 00:43:07.500
Can I say Polly too?

678
00:43:07.559 --> 00:43:08.760
Wow.

679
00:43:08.820 --> 00:43:11.039
Yeah, would you, is that what you would expect?

680
00:43:11.099 --> 00:43:12.119
I can't I don't know.

681
00:43:12.179 --> 00:43:13.619
I think Barbara's underrated.

682
00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:16.380
I don't even worship Barbara, to be honest.

683
00:43:16.440 --> 00:43:17.639
I was gonna say that.

684
00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:20.940
No, that's because she's the go-to for me.

685
00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:27.960
And the reason I, I mean, I love Billy, but the reason I watched the 60s ones again and started to was because of Jackie Hill.

686
00:43:28.019 --> 00:43:29.940
And just she makes the whole thing.

687
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:36.780
When she and Billy are together, you could have just had those 2 for 4 years and everything would have run smoothly.

688
00:43:36.840 --> 00:43:41.460
Okay, and that beautiful scene in the chase where they're lying out in sunbaking.

689
00:43:41.519 --> 00:43:42.840
That awful noise.

690
00:43:42.900 --> 00:43:44.760
It's almost cocoital, isn't it?

691
00:43:44.820 --> 00:43:47.159
They're just having a siggy...

692
00:43:47.159 --> 00:43:48.719
They're so in love with Bob.

693
00:43:48.780 --> 00:43:49.320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

694
00:43:49.380 --> 00:43:51.659
Because Billy really was with Jack again.

695
00:43:51.719 --> 00:43:57.420
Narratively, that's why we don't get another older female companion for so long because no one can replace Bob.

696
00:43:57.480 --> 00:44:04.139
So I'm actually thinking that we don't go ahead with the purse we are in episode 21 and we're just going to get to the beginning.

697
00:44:04.199 --> 00:44:05.760
The listener would love that.

698
00:44:05.820 --> 00:44:06.659
They would.

699
00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:07.619
He would.

700
00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:11.280
Richard, the science, Jack.

701
00:44:11.340 --> 00:44:12.179
Oh, that was mine.

702
00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:12.900
No, that was mine.

703
00:44:12.960 --> 00:44:13.800
Jacqulyn Hill.

704
00:44:13.860 --> 00:44:24.840
I think Jacqueline, the reason the show did so well is because Jacqueline Hill really made that cast cohesive and brought them together because, you know, Carol Anne was obviously discontented with what was going on and it showed.

705
00:44:24.840 --> 00:44:30.239
Billy was very nervous and that made it really interesting to watch him, but you could feel it.

706
00:44:30.300 --> 00:44:39.420
Ian is very much the male league is always the dullest. every writer, the gorbidala said that the most boring person on screen is the hero.

707
00:44:39.480 --> 00:44:41.280
They're not that interesting.

708
00:44:41.340 --> 00:44:45.000
They needed, but and he did a great job, but I don't find him at all interesting.

709
00:44:45.059 --> 00:44:48.239
But Jackie is just so exciting to watch.

710
00:44:48.300 --> 00:44:50.820
In fact, when Ian is good.

711
00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:52.679
It's in scenes with Jackie.

712
00:44:52.739 --> 00:44:53.280
Exactly.

713
00:44:53.340 --> 00:44:54.539
But when everybody's cooked.

714
00:44:54.599 --> 00:44:56.519
Billy's had his best with Jacqueline Hill.

715
00:44:56.579 --> 00:44:57.659
Yeah, I'm quite serious.

716
00:44:57.659 --> 00:45:00.000
The reason you can see Billy's performance.

717
00:45:00.059 --> 00:45:04.739
I'm not decaying, but getting more fractious is because he does his support net pulling away.

718
00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:09.059
He's a very sensitive man in the times when that could not be articulated.

719
00:45:09.119 --> 00:45:13.559
He didn't have a language I'm suspecting for being able to talk to the producers about how he was feeling.

720
00:45:13.619 --> 00:45:15.599
He just got cross from what we know.

721
00:45:15.659 --> 00:45:17.460
And I just think it's so sad.

722
00:45:17.519 --> 00:45:19.800
You're talking about Anaca and how terrific she is and she is.

723
00:45:19.860 --> 00:45:29.519
But I just wish it would, that everyone involved in the show would have been able to have a bit more sympathy for his condition and how he's been, he felt, you know, how he'd been let down.

724
00:45:29.579 --> 00:45:35.820
Because he took it so personally, Carol Ann said, when they left, he really felt that he was being personally betrayed.

725
00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:36.960
This was his family.

726
00:45:37.019 --> 00:45:38.639
His 2nd family.

727
00:45:38.699 --> 00:45:43.320
Gaitis brings that out really well, like in adventure, in space and time.

728
00:45:43.380 --> 00:45:44.579
Am I getting that in the right order?

729
00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:45.119
Yeah, yes.

730
00:45:45.179 --> 00:45:48.360
And that was shown here in Australia and boxing day.

731
00:45:48.360 --> 00:45:50.280
Great to see it.

732
00:45:50.340 --> 00:45:56.880
And it is, you know, it is really sensitive to Hartnall, who was difficult and all of that.

733
00:45:57.179 --> 00:46:09.900
But I have to sort of believe that the sweetness and the childlikeness and all of those characteristics of the doctor has when his Bill Hartnell, you know, come from somewhere in Hartnell's character.

734
00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:12.059
Yeah.

735
00:46:12.119 --> 00:46:15.179
Anyway, we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Barbara.

736
00:46:15.239 --> 00:46:17.099
So you're taking Polly back.

737
00:46:17.159 --> 00:46:18.239
Yeah, no.

738
00:46:18.239 --> 00:46:19.739
Okay, see, that was crazy.

739
00:46:19.800 --> 00:46:21.599
I think it was a moment of bad.

740
00:46:21.659 --> 00:46:23.579
I'd say it's speaking.

741
00:46:23.639 --> 00:46:24.840
Oh, that's interesting.

742
00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:27.239
We do adore Vicky. think she's open.

743
00:46:27.300 --> 00:46:30.360
I think Barbara is fantastic and Pauline is great.

744
00:46:30.420 --> 00:46:39.420
I mean, I think and Zoe, but Vicki's the one for me throughout what you've discovered and realised where I've totally gone back.

745
00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:50.940
I mean, I used to think that her and Stephen were just these clone scipers that we just got them copies of the original crew, which, you know, you can get from any 1970s, 80s Doctor Who encyclopedia of knowledge, but they're not.

746
00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:53.760
You know, I think Maureen and Brian, Vicky just, she just brings it.

747
00:46:53.820 --> 00:46:54.960
You know, she's fantastic.

748
00:46:55.019 --> 00:47:01.380
And I think that Peter Purvis, even when he's served up, The massacre as a script.

749
00:47:01.440 --> 00:47:03.659
I think his that's his whole story.

750
00:47:03.719 --> 00:47:06.300
Yeah, he's there with conviction.

751
00:47:06.300 --> 00:47:06.960
He's great.

752
00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:08.280
He holds all together.

753
00:47:08.340 --> 00:47:16.199
He supports Billy, and the reason it kept going and doing well in those stories is because he's, yeah, he's giving Billy a... isn't it?

754
00:47:16.260 --> 00:47:18.239
Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's terrific.

755
00:47:18.300 --> 00:47:20.820
Do you think that there's any companion that stayed too long?

756
00:47:20.940 --> 00:47:24.119
Or, and conversely, should have stayed longer.

757
00:47:24.179 --> 00:47:30.059
We change cars quite regularly in Doctor Who in a sort of an unusual way.

758
00:47:30.119 --> 00:47:33.179
Like it pretty much changes at the end of every year, doesn't it?

759
00:47:33.239 --> 00:47:35.880
So the only person who really stays for a very long time.

760
00:47:35.940 --> 00:47:38.940
Is Stephen in it longer than Barbara Neo?

761
00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:41.639
No, not any longer.

762
00:47:41.699 --> 00:47:42.119
Yeah.

763
00:47:42.179 --> 00:47:45.960
Um, the, I mean, the only companion longer than Barbara is.

764
00:47:45.960 --> 00:47:46.619
Jamie.

765
00:47:47.579 --> 00:47:48.780
Oh, Jamie stayed too long.

766
00:47:48.840 --> 00:47:49.139
God.

767
00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:56.400
Well, I would argue the problem isn't so much that you stay too long. is it's that the writers didn't write very well for him in his 2nd year.

768
00:47:56.460 --> 00:47:57.179
No, they didn't.

769
00:47:57.300 --> 00:47:59.280
Do you think he was introduced too soon?

770
00:47:59.340 --> 00:48:02.039
Do you think there should have been longer we've just spent in Poly?

771
00:48:02.099 --> 00:48:02.579
Yes, definitely.

772
00:48:02.639 --> 00:48:05.099
Yeah, because it's dunk away from Ben.

773
00:48:05.159 --> 00:48:06.360
It does take away from Ben.

774
00:48:06.420 --> 00:48:10.980
And as we see in the macroterra, and as you've said, Richard, Michael Craze was such a brilliant actor.

775
00:48:11.039 --> 00:48:14.159
So I think if anyone should have stayed longer, Ben and Polly should have stayed longer.

776
00:48:14.219 --> 00:48:19.619
Well, you have that thing, don't you, where you would have loved Ben and Polly for a year with Hartnall?

777
00:48:19.679 --> 00:48:21.239
Yeah, that's great.

778
00:48:21.300 --> 00:48:24.059
And with maybe Verity Back, just to give him support.

779
00:48:24.119 --> 00:48:25.920
And he was ill, but he wasn't that ill.

780
00:48:25.980 --> 00:48:26.579
Yeah.

781
00:48:26.699 --> 00:48:28.860
It was yeah, it was just his frustration.

782
00:48:28.920 --> 00:48:40.320
Yeah, if they had written the stories like the smugglers, which divided up the action between the 3 leads rather than it just being mostly hard on you cut to the companions occasionally.

783
00:48:40.380 --> 00:48:42.420
Yeah, we could have had another year with Billy, I think.

784
00:48:42.480 --> 00:48:47.039
So you think cartonal, if you hadn't been or whatever, could have stayed till the end of season four?

785
00:48:47.099 --> 00:48:51.960
Can you imagine what that would have been like with the mod young couple?

786
00:48:52.019 --> 00:48:54.119
It would have really enlivened him.

787
00:48:54.179 --> 00:48:55.739
Can you imagine Billy and the Macro Terror?

788
00:48:55.800 --> 00:48:56.340
Yeah.

789
00:48:56.400 --> 00:48:57.780
Well, the moon bath.

790
00:48:57.840 --> 00:48:58.380
Oh, interesting.

791
00:48:58.440 --> 00:49:14.280
I think Billy's out of place in the 10th planet, and I don't, much as I love Hart and I, I'm not sorry that the change happens when it does after 3 and a bit years and I certainly think Troughton enlivens it, even though the material is much worse.

792
00:49:14.280 --> 00:49:16.679
I mean, it's very quickly.

793
00:49:16.739 --> 00:49:19.199
Obviously, the moment of his performance.

794
00:49:19.260 --> 00:49:20.039
Well, that experience.

795
00:49:20.099 --> 00:49:29.280
So you've got the longest run of missing episodes, which is from 10th planet 4 to Underwater Menace one.

796
00:49:29.340 --> 00:49:35.820
And suddenly try out and appears in Underwater Menace 2 and he's, which of course we haven't seen.

797
00:49:35.940 --> 00:49:38.039
Spectac, no, because that would be illegal.

798
00:49:38.099 --> 00:49:40.800
He's just he's just spectacular.

799
00:49:40.860 --> 00:49:42.119
He's so compelling.

800
00:49:42.179 --> 00:49:43.860
Yeah, so male as well.

801
00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:46.320
Okay, Patrick, could Patrick have stayed on America?

802
00:49:46.920 --> 00:49:54.960
Well, as Patrick and Fraser have both said, you know, if it wasn't for their agents, you know, you've been in the show for 3 years, that's enough.

803
00:49:55.079 --> 00:49:57.539
And from a career point of view, they're quite right.

804
00:49:57.599 --> 00:50:00.239
But they both said they would have stayed forever.

805
00:50:00.300 --> 00:50:03.179
So Patrick could have easily stayed longer.

806
00:50:03.239 --> 00:50:07.800
You know, I think Jamie is a character and rights course, but Patrick was so...

807
00:50:07.800 --> 00:50:13.380
Probably by the end of about season four, by the end of the highlanders.

808
00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:17.159
But Patrick, I think, certainly could have done more.

809
00:50:17.219 --> 00:50:20.579
Richard, I think you've actually got like what you would have had as Patrick.

810
00:50:20.579 --> 00:50:22.739
Yeah, it's one of my pets. isn't it?

811
00:50:22.860 --> 00:50:25.260
Well, you know that of all of them, it was actually padders.

812
00:50:25.320 --> 00:50:28.380
It was Wendy who was offered to stay the season seven.

813
00:50:28.440 --> 00:50:32.159
Yes, and I believe Brian and Sherwin, but really did want her to stay.

814
00:50:32.219 --> 00:50:38.940
And I believe she said there's no way you could get me in a 2 shot with John Pert, you know, any shot with my face would be Pertley's crotch.

815
00:50:39.480 --> 00:50:42.719
I really have to go back and watch that game.

816
00:50:43.920 --> 00:50:51.780
I don't know that keeping a companion over to the next season would have worked, but I think there's very little you would need to change.

817
00:50:51.840 --> 00:51:04.380
And personally, I just would love to have a whole season of pets that like we can watch and see his character development because even within stories, he allows changes to the doctor.

818
00:51:04.440 --> 00:51:09.599
He's subtle and brilliant enough with the shift to a slightly older audience.

819
00:51:09.719 --> 00:51:15.960
My problem with Pat originally was that it felt too simplistic when I saw them for the 1st time.

820
00:51:16.019 --> 00:51:19.800
But he was deliberately told, the whole team was told, play it down.

821
00:51:19.860 --> 00:51:21.960
It's for a kids show, for a kiddie audience.

822
00:51:22.019 --> 00:51:32.940
When you go to the colour series, that isn't happening in season 7 and only starts to happen again in season 8 when they review it and ask Katie to play it.

823
00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:36.659
Katie's admitted she's always been playing it for the under teams.

824
00:51:36.719 --> 00:51:47.400
That's how she saw the program or how they were kind of steering it back towards that, that the colour season to see Pat subtly morph the character and deal with all of these long scenes.

825
00:51:47.460 --> 00:51:50.699
I think you were saying how would he have dealt with...

826
00:51:50.760 --> 00:51:53.460
Yeah, I just watched the Silurians in episode five.

827
00:51:53.519 --> 00:52:04.920
Sorry, Doctor Who and the Siberians, and episode 5 is just sort of, you know, per between a room with a bunch of, you know, drugs testing things under a microscope.

828
00:52:04.980 --> 00:52:06.300
That sounds like a great weekend.

829
00:52:06.360 --> 00:52:08.340
It goes on forever and ever.

830
00:52:08.400 --> 00:52:15.179
Like, look at the Hall of the Gods and what he and Wendy worked out with the physical comedy with the headsets and playing around.

831
00:52:15.239 --> 00:52:16.380
You know that would have been done.

832
00:52:16.500 --> 00:52:18.239
He would have done some fun with it.

833
00:52:18.239 --> 00:52:19.500
Because the script was so dull.

834
00:52:19.559 --> 00:52:20.940
He would have done something amazing.

835
00:52:21.000 --> 00:52:26.280
I'd love to have seen Pat with Carrie. with the character of Lee Shaw.

836
00:52:26.340 --> 00:52:34.559
You saw because you saw how Whittaker always set him up with a slightly more mature woman and just how outrageously plantation he is.

837
00:52:34.619 --> 00:52:35.039
Exactly.

838
00:52:35.039 --> 00:52:36.659
We talked about it so much.

839
00:52:36.719 --> 00:52:38.820
Yeah, yeah, and especially...

840
00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:41.340
I'm no nonsense, Liz.

841
00:52:41.400 --> 00:52:45.179
Yeah She would have really been slapping it down and he could have been a bit flirty.

842
00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:47.639
I'd just like to set play it more for the adults.

843
00:52:47.699 --> 00:52:50.280
He's such a great actor and he can do so much of it.

844
00:52:50.340 --> 00:52:55.860
It would have given him a fresh thing and, you know, a bit more, a thank you to him for putting the hard work in.

845
00:52:55.920 --> 00:53:01.320
Yeah, in a nice short 25 episodes. short-skirted companion, I thought you would say, yeah.

846
00:53:01.380 --> 00:53:04.739
The big problem he had was making so many shows a year.

847
00:53:04.800 --> 00:53:06.900
Imagine, you know, Pat, we're going to put you on in colour.

848
00:53:06.960 --> 00:53:07.559
Oh, that's great.

849
00:53:07.619 --> 00:53:10.139
And you only have to do two-thirds of the year work.

850
00:53:10.199 --> 00:53:11.340
Oh, that's brilliant.

851
00:53:11.400 --> 00:53:13.199
And your salary stays the same.

852
00:53:13.260 --> 00:53:14.400
Where do I sign?

853
00:53:14.460 --> 00:53:16.500
Well, I should have doing more money.

854
00:53:16.559 --> 00:53:21.360
And then I could have had my dream casting of Billy in macraterra, and Billy is...

855
00:53:21.420 --> 00:53:24.239
Billy for an extra year and Pat for the same amount of time.

856
00:53:24.300 --> 00:53:25.019
For the same reason.

857
00:53:25.079 --> 00:53:27.000
It's a thank you to Billy Free's hard work.

858
00:53:27.059 --> 00:53:31.739
These young people are going to support you and love you and you are safe and we really respect what you've done.

859
00:53:31.800 --> 00:53:33.300
Please just have fun with this.

860
00:53:33.360 --> 00:53:34.320
We're here to look after you.

861
00:53:34.380 --> 00:53:40.199
If someone had just said that to him, he would have relaxed like he did with his original cast and we could have had some fun.

862
00:53:40.260 --> 00:53:42.239
So you're talking about stories?

863
00:53:42.420 --> 00:53:49.860
I thought we might get from you, what you consider to be your favourite or the best story from each of the 2 here is that you've watched.

864
00:53:49.920 --> 00:53:57.900
Do you know, I mean, I said before, the chase is the is the hard one that I watch over and over again, and I'm totally aware of all of its flaws.

865
00:53:57.960 --> 00:53:59.639
It's the most filmic though, isn't it?

866
00:53:59.699 --> 00:54:01.260
You can see of all of the films.

867
00:54:01.320 --> 00:54:03.599
I wish we'd got that as a movie because it would work so long.

868
00:54:03.659 --> 00:54:05.579
It's so fun and so silly.

869
00:54:05.579 --> 00:54:07.860
And like, do you see?

870
00:54:07.920 --> 00:54:08.940
It's nonsense.

871
00:54:09.000 --> 00:54:11.340
There's terrible production gaps and all sorts of things.

872
00:54:11.400 --> 00:54:12.960
Like it really is kind of shareable.

873
00:54:13.019 --> 00:54:16.019
I must be overlooking something much more worthy in the.

874
00:54:16.079 --> 00:54:22.019
It's the most... you know, it's the most translatable into musical format, isn't it?

875
00:54:22.079 --> 00:54:27.420
Just like the Simpsons did Blanche DuBois.

876
00:54:27.480 --> 00:54:28.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

877
00:54:28.980 --> 00:54:30.539
I've heard street cars. right.

878
00:54:30.900 --> 00:54:34.199
So it chased to you, the chase, the musical.

879
00:54:34.260 --> 00:54:35.880
Check all the 1st one.

880
00:54:35.940 --> 00:54:42.539
And for Pat, like on quite different lines, and again, it's a Dalek Street.

881
00:54:42.599 --> 00:54:44.280
It has to be power of the Daleks.

882
00:54:44.340 --> 00:54:47.760
I think it's so, uh, it's so clever.

883
00:54:47.820 --> 00:54:50.940
You know, it's so clever and so ominous.

884
00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:56.639
And it's the one time Whittaker's kind of terrible delaying tactics really properly pay off.

885
00:54:56.639 --> 00:55:03.420
And it's got the doctor being really weird and off putting and it's got the dream team of, you know, Ben and Polly.

886
00:55:03.480 --> 00:55:05.699
So I think it would have to be that.

887
00:55:05.760 --> 00:55:07.079
Okay, Brendan.

888
00:55:07.199 --> 00:55:11.400
I'm going to go backwards on this because I'm actually still trying to think of a heart no one.

889
00:55:11.460 --> 00:55:13.079
Pat, it's easy for me.

890
00:55:13.139 --> 00:55:13.860
It's the invasion.

891
00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:15.539
Oh, good job.

892
00:55:15.599 --> 00:55:20.579
I just think it is so good and it's amazing that it's such a long story, but it's still so good.

893
00:55:20.699 --> 00:55:22.619
Yeah, you mentioned that too.

894
00:55:22.679 --> 00:55:23.159
Yeah, yeah.

895
00:55:23.159 --> 00:55:24.539
You've got Pat on top form.

896
00:55:24.599 --> 00:55:25.739
You got a great villain.

897
00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:27.900
You've got stuff for both companions to do.

898
00:55:27.960 --> 00:55:33.179
You've got great supporting guards, each of whom have their own character and their own motivations.

899
00:55:33.239 --> 00:55:40.920
You've got very strong female guest characters, particularly in the shape of Isabel, who is very proactive.

900
00:55:40.980 --> 00:55:43.320
Um, It's just more fun as well.

901
00:55:43.380 --> 00:55:44.880
It is really fun.

902
00:55:44.940 --> 00:55:46.739
It's just terribly modern.

903
00:55:46.800 --> 00:55:51.420
I think a bit cool, actually, on his blow up, it's got the girls playing poke, you know, photography.

904
00:55:51.539 --> 00:55:54.300
It's got some other references to more culture.

905
00:55:54.360 --> 00:55:57.659
I mean, the great thing is as well, is it's full of characters making mistakes.

906
00:55:57.719 --> 00:56:00.719
Like, you know, Vaughan makes mistake in making a deal with the Superman.

907
00:56:00.780 --> 00:56:03.000
Packers always make mistakes against God.

908
00:56:03.059 --> 00:56:04.619
You're not changing his surname.

909
00:56:05.519 --> 00:56:11.099
Zoe and Isabel, you know, make the mistake of going into space.

910
00:56:11.159 --> 00:56:18.000
Villain, but none of the mistakes feel like people being stupid, like so often in any TV show.

911
00:56:18.059 --> 00:56:22.860
People will occasionally do things seemingly just for the reason of plot expediency.

912
00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:23.760
That doesn't happen here.

913
00:56:23.820 --> 00:56:25.320
These feel like real people.

914
00:56:25.679 --> 00:56:36.840
Conversely, my heart no story, I think I'm going to pick the Romans, which is... which is, you know, I have 2 favourites right now.

915
00:56:37.320 --> 00:56:39.719
It is high fast.

916
00:56:39.780 --> 00:56:50.159
And so that means that people do do things for plot expediency and things happen for blood expediency, you know, like Ian phones his way to Rome and Barbara just happens to have been sold there.

917
00:56:50.219 --> 00:56:52.739
But that's the point...

918
00:56:52.800 --> 00:56:54.179
Yeah, this is so...

919
00:56:54.179 --> 00:57:00.059
It's what, yeah, and you've got the interweaving plots where the crew don't realise they're all in Rome together.

920
00:57:00.119 --> 00:57:01.920
They're all in the palace together.

921
00:57:01.980 --> 00:57:03.179
They're all in the palace together.

922
00:57:03.239 --> 00:57:07.500
You've got Derek Francis's Nero, which, even though, you know, that's historically inaccurate.

923
00:57:07.559 --> 00:57:09.900
He's 20 years older than Nero would have been, who the hell cares?

924
00:57:09.960 --> 00:57:10.920
He gives a great performance.

925
00:57:10.980 --> 00:57:13.739
And again, you've got strong parts for women as well.

926
00:57:13.860 --> 00:57:16.860
Papaya and Lacusta.

927
00:57:16.920 --> 00:57:24.780
Even the fellow slave who is imprisoned with Barbara, who doesn't get a huge amount of character, but just in the few scenes she's in.

928
00:57:25.139 --> 00:57:33.000
We have this great tension between the comedy of Dennis Spooner and the horrible reality of what it would be like here.

929
00:57:33.059 --> 00:57:41.159
So, you know, they're my favourites for 2 very different reasons, but they just highlight how varied Doctor Who is and how Doctor Who can have the comedy and the drama and balance.

930
00:57:41.219 --> 00:57:42.659
Fantastic answer.

931
00:57:42.719 --> 00:57:45.300
That's can't be taught.

932
00:57:45.360 --> 00:57:46.380
So good.

933
00:57:46.500 --> 00:57:47.880
You can disagree.

934
00:57:47.940 --> 00:57:49.199
That's true.

935
00:57:49.260 --> 00:57:52.800
I can try and say something that we haven't said in the podcast.

936
00:57:52.860 --> 00:57:54.360
So I agree with you.

937
00:57:54.420 --> 00:57:57.719
My go to is Whitaker and everything he does is fresh and interesting.

938
00:57:57.780 --> 00:58:04.380
It was really great seeing Wheel in Space again or just reading through that, listening to parts of it, I bison to the audience.

939
00:58:04.440 --> 00:58:11.099
Just how interestingly it's played and against type and Pat is surprising and cheeky and flirtatious.

940
00:58:11.159 --> 00:58:12.360
I plating.

941
00:58:12.420 --> 00:58:18.420
There's just so much in it and everything that Whittaker does, I simply just say it's such a hard choice.

942
00:58:18.480 --> 00:58:23.039
The massacre is very interesting for being someone like other Doctor Who stories.

943
00:58:23.099 --> 00:58:25.980
And because Billy is given a chance to play it.

944
00:58:26.039 --> 00:58:28.199
As if for an adult audience.

945
00:58:28.260 --> 00:58:32.159
He really, I know he's on screen for a very long time.

946
00:58:32.219 --> 00:58:33.179
Yeah, very little time.

947
00:58:33.239 --> 00:58:34.679
That actually makes it more potent.

948
00:58:34.739 --> 00:58:38.280
It's when you see less of the monster, it's more scary.

949
00:58:38.340 --> 00:58:41.340
Why is he hitting the last word on the map?

950
00:58:42.659 --> 00:58:44.820
That's how it works.

951
00:58:45.900 --> 00:58:48.780
Do we get a worse story, choice?

952
00:58:48.840 --> 00:58:50.099
Which was right.

953
00:58:50.099 --> 00:58:51.179
It's a question.

954
00:58:51.239 --> 00:58:52.800
This is my question.

955
00:58:52.920 --> 00:58:54.659
You can get the last word, Nathan.

956
00:58:54.780 --> 00:58:57.239
Which story would you like to lose all eternity?

957
00:58:57.300 --> 00:59:00.360
The space pirates, celestial time.

958
00:59:00.420 --> 00:59:01.440
Yeah, we've still got.

959
00:59:01.559 --> 00:59:04.380
I actually, I disagree.

960
00:59:04.440 --> 00:59:06.659
I don't think the space pirates is quite as terrible as that.

961
00:59:06.719 --> 00:59:08.760
It is incredible and it's not great.

962
00:59:08.820 --> 00:59:12.059
If you're 10 years old and you make spaceship models.

963
00:59:12.119 --> 00:59:13.559
That is spectacular.

964
00:59:13.619 --> 00:59:14.460
And it's funny.

965
00:59:14.519 --> 00:59:15.900
It's funny.

966
00:59:16.619 --> 00:59:24.420
One of the things that one of the things that I didn't talk about very much the time was that Bob Holmes gets the doctor right.

967
00:59:24.480 --> 00:59:27.179
And even when he's just faxing it in.

968
00:59:27.239 --> 00:59:28.139
Yeah, doesn't it?

969
00:59:28.199 --> 00:59:34.380
Yeah, and so, you know how when Holmes becomes the script editor, the doctor suddenly has pockets that are full of whole bunches of themes.

970
00:59:34.440 --> 00:59:37.139
That starts in the space fire.

971
00:59:37.199 --> 00:59:39.719
And so the doctor is kind of fun.

972
00:59:39.780 --> 00:59:40.860
I know he's sidelined.

973
00:59:40.920 --> 00:59:44.099
I know it's, you know, it's flawed and we were bored and all that sort of thing.

974
00:59:44.159 --> 00:59:46.079
But I wouldn't lose the space pirates.

975
00:59:46.139 --> 00:59:53.400
I would I'd rush straight to the furnace with the remaining episode of the celestial toy maker.

976
00:59:53.460 --> 00:59:59.639
It's more interesting to imagine and think about, which is why fandom loved it so much until they got to see it again.

977
00:59:59.699 --> 01:00:02.099
Some things work better in the memory, yeah.

978
01:00:02.159 --> 01:00:04.679
Actually, I'm going to recant on the space part.

979
01:00:04.739 --> 01:00:08.760
It was just the 1st thing that came into my head because I couldn't think of anything else that bored me more.

980
01:00:08.820 --> 01:00:10.619
The dominator.

981
01:00:10.619 --> 01:00:14.579
Because not only is the dominator boring, it's offensive.

982
01:00:14.639 --> 01:00:16.500
It's offensive to pacifism.

983
01:00:16.500 --> 01:00:17.579
I'm with you on that one.

984
01:00:17.639 --> 01:00:19.500
It's offensive to women.

985
01:00:19.559 --> 01:00:21.360
It's just...

986
01:00:21.360 --> 01:00:22.440
Is it the most offensive moment?

987
01:00:22.500 --> 01:00:25.980
It's offensive to any frock maker in the history.

988
01:00:26.039 --> 01:00:27.480
I think the...

989
01:00:27.539 --> 01:00:31.019
I like the most...

990
01:00:31.079 --> 01:00:33.539
I'm asking the most offensive moment.

991
01:00:33.599 --> 01:00:34.739
I think the arc is the worst.

992
01:00:35.579 --> 01:00:37.860
Did that surprise you?

993
01:00:37.920 --> 01:00:39.300
Going back to the arc.

994
01:00:39.420 --> 01:00:43.380
I mean, have you seen it not thought about its racism and you get to it and you go, 0 my goodness.

995
01:00:43.440 --> 01:00:46.380
I never thought about it until Nathan brought it up in the podcast.

996
01:00:46.380 --> 01:00:49.440
That's what our argument was at the time, wasn't it?

997
01:00:49.500 --> 01:00:50.639
As little children.

998
01:00:50.699 --> 01:00:53.519
This is a lizard, not a black person or not a coloured person.

999
01:00:53.579 --> 01:00:57.539
Yeah, we take on board what you're saying, but...

1000
01:00:57.599 --> 01:00:58.860
Anyway, the most offensive moment.

1001
01:00:59.039 --> 01:01:03.539
Is it the use of the N word in the celestial time maker?

1002
01:01:03.840 --> 01:01:06.360
No, I think it has to be the arc.

1003
01:01:06.420 --> 01:01:10.199
I think the arc is the most sustained racist allegory that shows produced.

1004
01:01:10.260 --> 01:01:12.119
The character of camel leaves.

1005
01:01:12.179 --> 01:01:12.780
Yeah.

1006
01:01:12.840 --> 01:01:15.659
But camel, I know it's been how he's treated.

1007
01:01:15.719 --> 01:01:17.280
But he does get to be quite heroic.

1008
01:01:17.340 --> 01:01:19.800
I'd say Toberman is more plot problematic than Kemble.

1009
01:01:19.860 --> 01:01:22.019
Well, they're both a problem though, aren't they?

1010
01:01:22.079 --> 01:01:23.039
strong man.

1011
01:01:23.159 --> 01:01:28.019
Is it okay to say I just see that he's playing a strong man and he happens to be a coloured actor?

1012
01:01:28.079 --> 01:01:28.920
I didn't see it.

1013
01:01:28.920 --> 01:01:29.699
I know.

1014
01:01:29.760 --> 01:01:31.260
No, that's the point.

1015
01:01:31.260 --> 01:01:33.000
He's a coloured person playing a role.

1016
01:01:33.059 --> 01:01:34.559
But I just saw him as a big guy.

1017
01:01:34.619 --> 01:01:36.900
He just happens to be, you know, really hell.

1018
01:01:36.960 --> 01:01:43.079
But these colour of the skills to me doesn't imbue that that was the character was required to be coloured.

1019
01:01:43.139 --> 01:01:45.659
He was just playing this big bloke.

1020
01:01:45.780 --> 01:01:48.000
But the fact is that the only time...

1021
01:01:48.000 --> 01:01:51.119
My turn is the black person is when it's a big dumb strong.

1022
01:01:51.179 --> 01:01:53.219
That starts really great, doesn't it?

1023
01:01:53.280 --> 01:01:54.059
Not era.

1024
01:01:54.119 --> 01:01:57.300
Not only that, what really highlights it for Tobin and Tupacite?

1025
01:01:57.300 --> 01:01:58.320
The other 2 villains.

1026
01:01:58.739 --> 01:02:02.940
The other 2 villains are portrayed as Intelligent. not English.

1027
01:02:03.000 --> 01:02:05.039
No, they're foreign. from Shifty Sand.

1028
01:02:05.099 --> 01:02:06.599
But they're intelligent.

1029
01:02:06.659 --> 01:02:07.079
He's not.

1030
01:02:07.139 --> 01:02:11.099
Yeah, but we're, you know, we're just...

1031
01:02:11.159 --> 01:02:12.239
I'm not actually judging.

1032
01:02:12.239 --> 01:02:16.139
They're most stupid lumps of putty, you're going to throw me to a capdown and chuck down too.

1033
01:02:16.199 --> 01:02:19.679
But, you know, it's something it's something that Nathan said about.

1034
01:02:19.679 --> 01:02:22.380
It's something that Nathan said about season five.

1035
01:02:22.440 --> 01:02:27.900
It's something I don't entirely agree with, but is in this story, that instead of, you know, going out to meet other cultures.

1036
01:02:27.960 --> 01:02:30.239
Other cultures are scary and they are coming to get you.

1037
01:02:31.260 --> 01:02:37.320
So that's a big problem. most offensive Um, Dodo.

1038
01:02:37.380 --> 01:02:38.760
Dodo unsimitized.

1039
01:02:39.300 --> 01:02:42.239
No, I don't think that's that bad.

1040
01:02:42.300 --> 01:02:44.460
She doesn't make good time to see that.

1041
01:02:44.519 --> 01:02:49.980
That's the game, displaced performance, because Jackie is playing it for the 4 year olds, and no one else around her is.

1042
01:02:50.039 --> 01:02:50.519
Yeah.

1043
01:02:50.519 --> 01:02:58.860
I mean, that, coming back to something 12 after earlier, I would have liked to see more Ejaculate, because when we see her in the gunfighters and a sadly great story.

1044
01:02:58.920 --> 01:03:00.000
Awesome machines.

1045
01:03:00.059 --> 01:03:03.420
She is really coming into her giving it a better go.

1046
01:03:03.480 --> 01:03:09.239
But that being said, as soon as she'd put up against Ben and Polly, it becomes how clear, how artificial.

1047
01:03:09.300 --> 01:03:12.360
Yeah, her home count his 50s muff and the milk.

1048
01:03:12.420 --> 01:03:12.840
Yeah, yeah.

1049
01:03:12.840 --> 01:03:14.340
I'm not referring to her ankles.

1050
01:03:15.059 --> 01:03:17.219
No, that's exactly it.

1051
01:03:17.280 --> 01:03:20.039
And she looks utterly out of place in the inferno.

1052
01:03:20.099 --> 01:03:22.079
These cool kids are hanging.

1053
01:03:22.139 --> 01:03:23.880
Yeah, actually, that's the amazing thing.

1054
01:03:23.940 --> 01:03:27.480
Billy fits in really well with the whole mod speed scene.

1055
01:03:27.539 --> 01:03:29.579
You can actually see him hanging out with John Liman.

1056
01:03:29.639 --> 01:03:30.480
What is she wearing?

1057
01:03:30.539 --> 01:03:32.219
It's like a smock or something.

1058
01:03:32.519 --> 01:03:35.760
I think it's it was something left human.

1059
01:03:35.820 --> 01:03:45.360
There's something left over from a hand me down from the refusals and, you know, like you can actually now see it, just shows you why they all decided to give up on visibility as a culture.

1060
01:03:45.420 --> 01:03:51.119
I would still say for me that the dominators is the most offensive...

1061
01:03:51.179 --> 01:04:04.079
I mean, it doesn't have the racist part of it, but I mean, even in the arc, the doctor does say that perhaps you shouldn't be treating the monoids so badly, perhaps they are intelligent beings just as yourself.

1062
01:04:04.139 --> 01:04:07.980
I think you're more intelligent than the other people are big.

1063
01:04:08.039 --> 01:04:13.079
He does say it to the humans, but he acknowledges their intelligence and respects the modern weeds as individual beings.

1064
01:04:13.139 --> 01:04:17.099
Thank you, because that is my point with the monoids of that story as well.

1065
01:04:17.159 --> 01:04:21.960
I don't see it as, you know, I want to say black and white.

1066
01:04:23.460 --> 01:04:36.900
I think there are moments where they try and sort of wallpaper over the racism and the refuse scenes telling them to live together in peace and harmony, but I don't think it, you know, the main problem, as you highlight it, stuff is happening with the dissolution of the empire.

1067
01:04:37.019 --> 01:04:39.900
Yeah, no, I know, but I think this is on the wrong side of history.

1068
01:04:40.019 --> 01:04:44.219
Yeah, because the main problem, as you've said before, Nathan, isn't so much in episodes one or 2 where they're slaves.

1069
01:04:44.280 --> 01:04:49.559
It's episodes 3 and 4 where they've taken over and they're making a hash of it and they're making a hash of it because they're not the great white.

1070
01:04:49.619 --> 01:04:51.000
French isn't it?

1071
01:04:51.059 --> 01:04:54.059
Well, they're just getting it all wrong, kissing everybody off.

1072
01:04:54.119 --> 01:04:56.280
They can't rule themselves, you know?

1073
01:04:56.340 --> 01:04:58.980
There was no, I am face calming.

1074
01:04:59.699 --> 01:05:07.739
Okay, well, if we're talking about the converse of that, the most beautiful moment that you think the series has.

1075
01:05:08.039 --> 01:05:10.139
Oh, there's so many.

1076
01:05:10.260 --> 01:05:13.260
Okay, I'm going to throw a few out there so we can discuss them.

1077
01:05:13.320 --> 01:05:16.800
Victoria's departure and her last scene with Jamie.

1078
01:05:16.920 --> 01:05:24.840
The doctor and Barbara's blazing row in the Aztecs turning into them, comforting each other about the horror of Aztec civilisation and how to save it.

1079
01:05:24.900 --> 01:05:37.619
And that brilliant moment where he says he's met an older woman and she says, you all in rogue and stuff. rewatch the X. Barbara with Nero when he says, I've got a surprise for you.

1080
01:05:38.280 --> 01:05:42.000
And just adjust her racing with the eyes when I was.

1081
01:05:42.059 --> 01:05:49.079
The one scene in 60s shock 2 that just reliably brings me to tears is Ian and Barbara's departure.

1082
01:05:49.260 --> 01:05:55.440
And I really think that nothing that nothing approaches that for like emotional.

1083
01:05:55.500 --> 01:06:04.019
Like we're used to it in Doctor Who now, you know, the how the characters feel and stuff is foregrounded, and it's a bit less about being captured and escaping and stuff.

1084
01:06:04.079 --> 01:06:07.559
But I think that that's just spectacularly beautiful.

1085
01:06:07.619 --> 01:06:10.619
And then the other one is the one that we talked about last week.

1086
01:06:10.679 --> 01:06:13.860
That moment where Zoe leaves and she's on the screen.

1087
01:06:13.980 --> 01:06:16.559
And she thinks she can remember something.

1088
01:06:16.559 --> 01:06:23.400
She looks back at the camera, but the way it's shot is that she's looking back into the courtroom and she's looking at it.

1089
01:06:23.460 --> 01:06:26.099
It's already been removed.

1090
01:06:26.159 --> 01:06:33.780
I have come up with what will be mine because I thought to myself, I want to avoid companion departures because they're obvious.

1091
01:06:33.840 --> 01:06:37.260
But for me, it's actually just before a companion departure.

1092
01:06:37.320 --> 01:06:40.019
It's the penultimate scene of the dynamic invasion of earth.

1093
01:06:40.079 --> 01:06:47.280
And it's just this series of little beautiful moments where they're back on the shore of the Thames and they hear Big Ben in the distance and the doctor says that's just the beginning.

1094
01:06:47.340 --> 01:06:51.599
And then he has that conversation with Susan about her shoe and you both know they're not talking about the shoe.

1095
01:06:51.599 --> 01:06:56.159
And then Susan breaks down and says, David, I do love you, but I can't say.

1096
01:06:57.179 --> 01:07:04.380
I, yeah, it's it's just all building and it's it's it's beautiful and heartbreaking at the same time.

1097
01:07:04.440 --> 01:07:05.219
And I think that's the thing.

1098
01:07:05.219 --> 01:07:10.260
For a beautiful moment, it has to break your heart a little. because it puts it back together again.

1099
01:07:10.320 --> 01:07:16.019
It's like it's it's like it's like a really good hug when you're really upset about something.

1100
01:07:16.079 --> 01:07:18.599
It doesn't stop you being upset, but it starts to put you back together.

1101
01:07:18.659 --> 01:07:21.119
Yeah, I really like them.

1102
01:07:21.179 --> 01:07:23.519
It has to be one day, shock on that.

1103
01:07:23.579 --> 01:07:24.719
Yeah.

1104
01:07:24.719 --> 01:07:25.199
Thank you.

1105
01:07:25.260 --> 01:07:35.460
I think, you know, I think because that also ties, of course, into the 5 doctors, like you know that sequence from it, but whenever I get to that sequence, you can't help that guest going is a moment.

1106
01:07:35.519 --> 01:07:37.980
You just have that dinkling sort of.

1107
01:07:39.000 --> 01:07:40.559
It's one of it's beautiful.

1108
01:07:40.619 --> 01:07:41.880
Yeah, beautiful.

1109
01:07:42.059 --> 01:07:44.400
Monsters and violence.

1110
01:07:44.460 --> 01:07:45.539
Right?

1111
01:07:45.599 --> 01:07:49.440
Which one off monster villain should have recurred?

1112
01:07:49.559 --> 01:07:51.719
One off monster.

1113
01:07:51.780 --> 01:07:58.139
I would have actually quite like to see the board come back and be expanded upon in terms of their character.

1114
01:07:58.199 --> 01:07:59.219
They're cybermen, aren't they?

1115
01:07:59.280 --> 01:08:07.320
Well, they appeared to be a sort of political movement and they were a political movement with some degree of sympathy because like the doctor says in the end, you know.

1116
01:08:08.880 --> 01:08:10.079
That's not.

1117
01:08:10.139 --> 01:08:18.420
But like the doctor said in the end, man is not made to be judged by machines and controlled by machines.

1118
01:08:18.479 --> 01:08:20.340
And really, that's what the board are saying.

1119
01:08:20.399 --> 01:08:21.840
We don't want to be controlled by machines.

1120
01:08:21.899 --> 01:08:27.420
And as we speak, big finish have released a new board audio story.

1121
01:08:27.479 --> 01:08:28.979
Oh, wow.

1122
01:08:29.039 --> 01:08:30.180
The power of costumes.

1123
01:08:30.239 --> 01:08:32.699
They're fantastic.

1124
01:08:32.760 --> 01:08:36.659
The new board leader actually has a crystal on his head because he's on the cover.

1125
01:08:36.720 --> 01:08:37.739
I haven't heard it yet.

1126
01:08:37.800 --> 01:08:45.960
I'm way behind on my big finish, but it'll be interesting to hear how they've fleshed out monsters because that's something Big Fish do so well, bringing back one of them.

1127
01:08:45.960 --> 01:08:47.279
It's like the Nelly Morn.

1128
01:08:47.340 --> 01:08:48.960
They brought back the name on it.

1129
01:08:49.500 --> 01:08:51.720
It's a fairy tonight.

1130
01:08:51.779 --> 01:08:53.460
I love seasons of Shield.

1131
01:08:53.520 --> 01:08:55.859
They have great voices, though.

1132
01:08:55.920 --> 01:08:56.640
They do have great.

1133
01:08:56.699 --> 01:08:58.079
Okay, so the forward track.

1134
01:08:58.140 --> 01:08:59.100
That's a great story anyway.

1135
01:08:59.159 --> 01:09:00.239
Paul Cornell, isn't it?

1136
01:09:00.300 --> 01:09:00.899
So of course it's good.

1137
01:09:01.020 --> 01:09:02.039
And Carolyn Zimcox.

1138
01:09:02.100 --> 01:09:06.720
I want to say Magic Mavic Chen, but they did bring him back in the invite.

1139
01:09:06.960 --> 01:09:10.500
So, is that like a song?

1140
01:09:10.560 --> 01:09:14.399
Yeah, he just re-emerged.

1141
01:09:14.460 --> 01:09:17.460
Um, I don't know.

1142
01:09:17.579 --> 01:09:19.739
The macra...

1143
01:09:19.739 --> 01:09:21.239
Dramas?

1144
01:09:21.300 --> 01:09:22.619
The dramans.

1145
01:09:22.680 --> 01:09:23.699
That would be really something.

1146
01:09:23.760 --> 01:09:25.079
I was Dominators.

1147
01:09:25.140 --> 01:09:32.220
Couldn't we have had that story where the dominators meet the celestial toy maker on the arm?

1148
01:09:32.279 --> 01:09:36.060
And then they crash into 15th century frogs.

1149
01:09:37.500 --> 01:09:39.899
To get organised.

1150
01:09:40.680 --> 01:09:43.260
It would be all my dreams come true.

1151
01:09:44.579 --> 01:09:46.560
Give me Russell, right?

1152
01:09:46.619 --> 01:09:48.359
That is a normal one. pretty sure we did, sir.

1153
01:09:48.779 --> 01:09:50.579
Richard.

1154
01:09:51.840 --> 01:09:54.000
Sorry, Pip and Jane Blake.

1155
01:09:54.119 --> 01:09:54.960
Where were we?

1156
01:09:56.699 --> 01:10:00.060
For me, the most mesmeric.

1157
01:10:00.119 --> 01:10:07.260
And interestingly for non-fans, it's the go to, and it really was in the 80s when it 1st came out on video, it's an early one that came out earlier.

1158
01:10:07.319 --> 01:10:16.800
Ones that students getting around on a Saturday night, you know, as in no money, we've got nothing but a bottle of hootch and a spliff, everybody watched the web planet.

1159
01:10:16.800 --> 01:10:18.359
And it's amazing.

1160
01:10:18.420 --> 01:10:19.680
It's really amazing.

1161
01:10:19.739 --> 01:10:25.619
I don't know if I quite like the audio return to the web planet that Peter, you're talking about, big finish.

1162
01:10:25.680 --> 01:10:27.300
It's a fun little one thing story.

1163
01:10:27.359 --> 01:10:31.500
I don't think it would have worked so much as a returning character, but I'd just love to see them.

1164
01:10:31.560 --> 01:10:37.020
I did some little drawings for our page when we were talking about Wet Planet because I'm just so fascinated by them.

1165
01:10:37.079 --> 01:10:41.279
It's showing Todd, but it's on the revisioning of what they'd be.

1166
01:10:41.340 --> 01:10:44.460
I just think it'd be amazing as in CG.

1167
01:10:44.520 --> 01:10:47.100
I did see G animation for a few years there.

1168
01:10:47.159 --> 01:10:48.720
I just think it would be a beautiful thing.

1169
01:10:48.779 --> 01:10:54.119
And just to take Doctor Who, you know, Vernian, this show can do everything and that's why we love it.

1170
01:10:54.180 --> 01:10:57.060
I want to see it do pure esotericusF again.

1171
01:10:57.119 --> 01:10:59.819
I'm not saying it'll be a quality...

1172
01:10:59.880 --> 01:11:02.520
I don't know that it would work, but hey, for an hour format.

1173
01:11:02.579 --> 01:11:08.579
Just give us pure Edwardian fantasy of the a Lewis Carroll kind of nutsy thing.

1174
01:11:08.640 --> 01:11:09.840
I think it would work really well.

1175
01:11:10.020 --> 01:11:11.939
That's amazing picture.

1176
01:11:12.000 --> 01:11:12.600
Oh, thanks.

1177
01:11:12.659 --> 01:11:15.539
Yeah, well, I think they're they'd be amazing creatures to have.

1178
01:11:15.600 --> 01:11:23.579
You throw us into a truly alien environment, not just a rich for her pleasure rubber for it, started Voyager kind of.

1179
01:11:23.640 --> 01:11:30.779
Yeah, no, I like we're playing a lot, and that's something that I was kind of surprised by because it was something that we used to scoff at, really, wasn't it?

1180
01:11:30.840 --> 01:11:31.920
But it really is.

1181
01:11:32.039 --> 01:11:33.659
And there's not been enough corks.

1182
01:11:33.720 --> 01:11:34.380
I mean, come on.

1183
01:11:34.439 --> 01:11:35.939
Oh, yes, have they come back?

1184
01:11:36.000 --> 01:11:40.020
They're actually quite they are quite odd and threatening with the little kitty boys.

1185
01:11:40.140 --> 01:11:41.279
You could have done something with them.

1186
01:11:41.340 --> 01:11:43.079
It's the top of the thing on a shoe box.

1187
01:11:43.140 --> 01:11:44.640
Remember I said at the time?

1188
01:11:44.699 --> 01:11:47.760
No, no, no, no, they kind of come back as the top of the thing.

1189
01:11:47.819 --> 01:11:49.859
Yeah, they really do, don't they?

1190
01:11:49.979 --> 01:11:52.560
But without the with a board crystal on there.

1191
01:11:52.619 --> 01:11:55.739
Let's talk about some of the recurring monsters.

1192
01:11:55.800 --> 01:11:56.880
Resting the Dalks.

1193
01:11:57.000 --> 01:11:57.779
Was that a positive?

1194
01:11:57.840 --> 01:11:58.500
Absolutely.

1195
01:11:58.560 --> 01:11:59.340
Yes, I agree.

1196
01:11:59.399 --> 01:12:00.060
No.

1197
01:12:00.119 --> 01:12:01.439
No, we are.

1198
01:12:01.560 --> 01:12:06.720
Because they were replaced with the, basically, the cybermen, who look careful, essentially.

1199
01:12:06.779 --> 01:12:08.279
But look how fresh and interesting it was.

1200
01:12:08.340 --> 01:12:08.939
For the cast.

1201
01:12:09.000 --> 01:12:09.659
It was more interesting.

1202
01:12:09.720 --> 01:12:11.939
The blokes can move around a bit more.

1203
01:12:12.000 --> 01:12:20.039
The Daleks are a brilliant concept that occasionally when we reboot, we get it right, Genesis, lovely Robbie Shuman, Stylek story, power.

1204
01:12:20.100 --> 01:12:21.960
I would say, beautiful.

1205
01:12:22.020 --> 01:12:27.239
When you've got a good writer and you hold back on them, but my goodness, it's so easy to get them wrong.

1206
01:12:27.300 --> 01:12:33.479
Yeah, well, I mean, look at look at the Dalek stories we're getting coming up in the 70s where they were doing one a year.

1207
01:12:33.539 --> 01:12:38.460
You can't have power of the dialects and evil of the dialects every year.

1208
01:12:38.520 --> 01:12:40.500
In the 70s, we get Day of the Daleks, which is great.

1209
01:12:40.560 --> 01:12:43.079
We get Plan of the Daleks, which is a bit of a runaround.

1210
01:12:43.140 --> 01:12:44.939
We get Deaths of the Daleks, which is okay.

1211
01:12:45.000 --> 01:12:49.079
But then we get Genesis because we have a new producer coming in.

1212
01:12:49.140 --> 01:12:51.180
And you got Bob Holmes, both telling Terry Nation.

1213
01:12:51.300 --> 01:12:53.640
And the Daleks are hardly in it, which is fine.

1214
01:12:53.699 --> 01:12:56.399
I mean, I think you should keep them as the ontological threat.

1215
01:12:56.460 --> 01:12:57.239
Yeah, yeah.

1216
01:12:57.300 --> 01:12:58.079
That's right.

1217
01:12:58.140 --> 01:13:01.140
And I think that that's where Terry Nation misunderstands the Daleks.

1218
01:13:01.199 --> 01:13:14.220
She just thinks they're sort of, you know, shrill robots and things, but we think it gets them and I think, I think, you know, Bob Holmes gets got them like much under under estimated victory of the dialects, but then all the stuff that was cut out.

1219
01:13:14.279 --> 01:13:15.600
It would have been an amazing 2 part.

1220
01:13:15.659 --> 01:13:25.500
We were talking about that just before you arrived because we actually have a new dialect supreme... new paradigm, Diana Rothstarlik.

1221
01:13:25.560 --> 01:13:27.300
What's Diana Roster?

1222
01:13:27.359 --> 01:13:29.039
It's a supreme job.

1223
01:13:29.100 --> 01:13:31.739
Oh, I thought you made it...

1224
01:13:34.800 --> 01:13:38.159
That's the content.

1225
01:13:38.220 --> 01:13:43.500
Anyway, the Darlic in question is an alarm clock, which does this.

1226
01:13:49.560 --> 01:13:52.079
It operates the teleport and the grader.

1227
01:13:52.140 --> 01:13:53.159
That's so interesting.

1228
01:13:53.699 --> 01:13:57.420
So what is that achieve?

1229
01:13:57.539 --> 01:14:00.300
Why is that getting kicked in?

1230
01:14:00.359 --> 01:14:02.159
Is it Cameron?

1231
01:14:02.760 --> 01:14:04.800
Is it doing the accent?

1232
01:14:04.859 --> 01:14:05.760
Let's...

1233
01:14:05.760 --> 01:14:08.819
There you go.

1234
01:14:08.819 --> 01:14:13.560
So I actually say we're tired of Daleks already.

1235
01:14:13.619 --> 01:14:21.720
Okay, but if we if we just look at the different recurring monsters like Dalek, Simon, Yeti, Great Intelligence, Ice Foyers, and the Methling Monk.

1236
01:14:21.779 --> 01:14:24.119
Who were the most effective who released the SG?

1237
01:14:24.180 --> 01:14:41.159
I mean, I do I do want to properly address the idea that resting the Daleks was unfortunate because I think the Daleks and the doctor, by power of Daleks, they become opposites and they become like proper modelling.

1238
01:14:41.220 --> 01:14:43.979
And they're really, really so associated with the program.

1239
01:14:44.039 --> 01:14:55.380
And I have to kind of suspect that that part of the dropping interest in the late 60s had to do with the Daleks not being in it anymore.

1240
01:14:55.439 --> 01:14:56.399
Do you know what I mean?

1241
01:14:56.460 --> 01:14:58.439
And I think the cybermen always...

1242
01:14:58.439 --> 01:15:03.539
I think Xander says these things, they always have the kind of the whiff of disappointment about them.

1243
01:15:03.600 --> 01:15:08.819
You know, they're always like not the daleks, you know, so are they invasions?

1244
01:15:08.939 --> 01:15:10.319
Well, have worked with them.

1245
01:15:10.380 --> 01:15:12.479
But that's right, but they're barely in it.

1246
01:15:12.600 --> 01:15:23.460
You know, 10th planet's obviously an exception because the, the, the premise of the, the sidemen is established there and they're, they're not just old, the cybermen again, they're something really frightening and weird and different.

1247
01:15:23.520 --> 01:15:25.859
But I think they just become sort of dull robots.

1248
01:15:25.920 --> 01:15:28.020
It's like pretty... as did the Daleks.

1249
01:15:28.079 --> 01:15:29.579
Just don't use any of them too often.

1250
01:15:29.640 --> 01:15:32.640
They were overused in the same way that the dialects happened.

1251
01:15:32.699 --> 01:15:34.380
Unlike a lot of people.

1252
01:15:34.439 --> 01:15:42.420
I think having the dialects back every year in the new program is great, essentially, even as a cameo, just to remind us that they're the.

1253
01:15:42.420 --> 01:15:43.380
Can they win sometimes?

1254
01:15:43.439 --> 01:15:46.140
That's another reason why I love Michael is a story.

1255
01:15:46.199 --> 01:15:49.380
Just don't let them be able to pushed down a flight of stairs.

1256
01:15:49.439 --> 01:15:50.939
It's just ridiculous.

1257
01:15:51.000 --> 01:15:53.100
See, yeah, I agree.

1258
01:15:53.159 --> 01:15:54.420
I agree with that.

1259
01:15:54.479 --> 01:15:59.340
You know, the Dalek should be allowed to have a at least a partial win occasionally.

1260
01:15:59.399 --> 01:16:03.720
I mean, really, they get that in Genesis because even though they're in tune, they survive.

1261
01:16:03.840 --> 01:16:10.800
I actually have always preferred cybermen to Daleks. simply because...

1262
01:16:10.859 --> 01:16:21.420
Well, until the 80s, You couldn't become a Dalek, there is no threat to you as a human being that you can become a Dalek, and then of course they start doing that.

1263
01:16:21.479 --> 01:16:26.159
But with the side of the men, it's stated right from their 1st scene that they are human.

1264
01:16:26.220 --> 01:16:29.100
They are human underneath all that and it strips that away from me.

1265
01:16:29.159 --> 01:16:32.579
And that's why I find them so much more interesting.

1266
01:16:32.699 --> 01:16:41.159
And I would argue that really in the 60s, the only story that doesn't really work for the side meant in that it could have been anyone is the wheel in space.

1267
01:16:41.220 --> 01:16:46.439
But I think they're very effectively used in all the other stories they appear in the 60s.

1268
01:16:46.500 --> 01:16:48.479
I love them in wheeling sports.

1269
01:16:48.539 --> 01:16:50.039
Yeah, I kind of do as well.

1270
01:16:50.100 --> 01:16:51.180
But I do agree with you.

1271
01:16:51.239 --> 01:16:52.439
I think they could be anyone.

1272
01:16:52.500 --> 01:16:55.380
But I think they could just foul be anyone in the moon base as well.

1273
01:16:55.439 --> 01:17:04.680
And, you know, there's enough similarity, I guess, between the war machines and the invasion where, you know, it didn't need to be the side of them, particularly, uh, do you know what I mean?

1274
01:17:04.739 --> 01:17:07.800
Maybe it could have just been robot guys or any kind of alien really.

1275
01:17:07.859 --> 01:17:12.779
But with the invasion, it has the thing off the cybermen are coming home.

1276
01:17:13.800 --> 01:17:19.079
They're coming home in force this time because last time they came home, they just took over a couple of offices.

1277
01:17:19.140 --> 01:17:19.319
Yeah.

1278
01:17:19.319 --> 01:17:19.800
Yeah.

1279
01:17:19.800 --> 01:17:21.539
This is the previous time.

1280
01:17:21.840 --> 01:17:25.079
Yeah, but for us, it's this time.

1281
01:17:25.140 --> 01:17:30.779
Well, you see, I actually think that they've so kind of forgotten the premise of the side meant, you know what I mean?

1282
01:17:30.840 --> 01:17:32.399
That they just don't really care.

1283
01:17:32.460 --> 01:17:42.720
Um, and I guess, I guess it has to be the same because it's international electromatics and taking the world over using, you know, transistor radios and stuff like that.

1284
01:17:42.779 --> 01:17:43.680
So maybe I'm wrong.

1285
01:17:43.739 --> 01:17:45.000
Maybe it does need to be assignment.

1286
01:17:45.060 --> 01:17:50.819
But the Simon don't need to be, you know, humans that have been brutally changed and things.

1287
01:17:50.880 --> 01:17:52.739
It's not most true, is it?

1288
01:17:52.859 --> 01:17:55.140
That what's coming out of this between you, listening to YouTube.

1289
01:17:55.199 --> 01:17:56.039
What do you think, Todd?

1290
01:17:56.100 --> 01:17:56.760
It's not the monster.

1291
01:17:56.819 --> 01:18:00.479
It's the way you divest the monster within the narrative.

1292
01:18:00.539 --> 01:18:07.020
It's how the monster addresses and comes up against the main characters and where the story goes with them.

1293
01:18:07.079 --> 01:18:09.659
Is that the basis of how is the writer?

1294
01:18:09.720 --> 01:18:12.060
That's the writer, the producer, the director.

1295
01:18:12.119 --> 01:18:13.260
And you can enter behind that.

1296
01:18:13.319 --> 01:18:18.180
And you've kept coming back to that type of Whittaker or Veryton Lambert and that sort of thing.

1297
01:18:18.239 --> 01:18:26.399
So, I think, I'd like to ask the best production team, in terms of producers.

1298
01:18:26.399 --> 01:18:28.859
You can't, like, well, you always got 2 things, haven't you?

1299
01:18:28.920 --> 01:18:45.960
In art theory in architecture, in fact, as it's now, you know, the classical model of art movements, is you have the establishing period, which is the classical period where you have fresh ideas that are then strengthened and commodified and put into a protocol.

1300
01:18:46.020 --> 01:18:51.840
You have the mannerist period coming right after that and you start to become a bit more playful and perhaps a bit of joy comes in.

1301
01:18:51.899 --> 01:19:00.000
Um, there's recognition of the stale, but then you go to the baroque, which you would might say for us is the Colin Baker era.

1302
01:19:00.060 --> 01:19:03.899
In that things are just thrown up and let's be as amazing and creative as possible.

1303
01:19:03.960 --> 01:19:16.140
You could say with the 80s, the mannerrest period followed the baroque because Sylvester's one had a lot of that, but it also looked at where they got it wrong, perhaps, and jumping forward.

1304
01:19:16.199 --> 01:19:24.180
In the 60s, for me, the classical period, which is the early Hartnell, is the strongest because it's refresh and creative and they're scared.

1305
01:19:24.239 --> 01:19:27.300
And you do some brilliant creative work when you're scared.

1306
01:19:27.300 --> 01:19:30.960
And you're running with those appearances every single week.

1307
01:19:31.020 --> 01:19:33.479
So yeah, my dream team is verity.

1308
01:19:33.539 --> 01:19:36.600
But then I also look at, there were great ideas, even with wilds.

1309
01:19:36.659 --> 01:19:37.680
They were interesting ideas.

1310
01:19:37.739 --> 01:19:39.420
Things weren't working together.

1311
01:19:39.479 --> 01:19:45.239
Then you get something like the war games, which is just this gorgeous black pearl we just talked about.

1312
01:19:45.300 --> 01:19:46.739
And it's so fresh.

1313
01:19:46.800 --> 01:19:49.619
And there's something you talked about when Caroline Ford was leaving.

1314
01:19:49.680 --> 01:19:54.840
There's something about knowing you're going to leave, whether it be a job or once you've decided to end a relationship.

1315
01:19:54.899 --> 01:20:04.859
Well, there's a sense of peace and perhaps the unconscious kicks in, but you're actually able to say what you'd always wanted to say without any fear of threat or just put it out there.

1316
01:20:04.920 --> 01:20:14.340
And you get amazing performances from people, not just the actors, but the whole production team when they know something's about to end, which is why these stories are so poignant.

1317
01:20:14.399 --> 01:20:17.220
As Brendan was saying, it's the scenes leading up to the departure.

1318
01:20:17.279 --> 01:20:19.260
It's not just that moment.

1319
01:20:19.319 --> 01:20:20.399
Of course that's the article.

1320
01:20:20.460 --> 01:20:24.479
But I think that people are actually putting a bit more in and forgetting how stressed they are.

1321
01:20:24.539 --> 01:20:28.260
You know how great you feel on the last day of work, even if you're still busy.

1322
01:20:28.380 --> 01:20:31.199
You just know because it's over for now. can relax.

1323
01:20:31.260 --> 01:20:33.659
So those points for me.

1324
01:20:34.079 --> 01:20:36.539
Are the great moments.

1325
01:20:36.600 --> 01:20:41.699
So maybe the last few stories of pet and that really, you know, was that really early period of 60s person last.

1326
01:20:41.760 --> 01:20:47.579
Yeah, I would have to say it has to be, you know, Barry Lambert and David Whitaker, a scoop later.

1327
01:20:47.640 --> 01:20:52.380
I'm going to say something slightly different, which is Veritini Lambert and Dennis Spooner.

1328
01:20:52.439 --> 01:20:53.819
Oh, okay.

1329
01:20:53.880 --> 01:21:01.739
And the reason I'm saying that is, you know, Verity, Lambert and David Wicker, you know, set up this universe, we know and love.

1330
01:21:01.800 --> 01:21:08.640
But it was when Dennis Spooner came on board that it really introduced the sort of sense of anarchy and reverence.

1331
01:21:08.760 --> 01:21:11.279
You know, in the romance.

1332
01:21:11.399 --> 01:21:12.600
It was fun again, wasn't it?

1333
01:21:12.659 --> 01:21:14.819
I mean, the 1st series was still fun.

1334
01:21:14.880 --> 01:21:21.359
It had moments, but it's only in the Romans where you start catching the doctor and Vicky throwing people out of windows.

1335
01:21:22.079 --> 01:21:27.239
And, you know, I just love Dennis Spooner's work in everything he touches.

1336
01:21:27.300 --> 01:21:42.300
But for me, that run of stories in that 2nd season, it's so well crystalised and you can tell everyone on the show is having an immense amount of fun, whereas in the 1st season, for instance, we know Carol Anne Ford wasn't having fun by the end of it.

1337
01:21:42.359 --> 01:21:45.479
But that part, everyone's having fun.

1338
01:21:45.539 --> 01:21:51.000
And it is after that, that everyone involved said, you know, after verity left and after Dennis left it kind of fell apart.

1339
01:21:51.060 --> 01:21:53.699
I'm not blaming Miles and Tosh for that.

1340
01:21:53.760 --> 01:21:57.960
I'm just saying that for me is the best of the 60s.

1341
01:21:58.020 --> 01:22:06.899
It became a job. rather than it became a production thing. you know, so I'm not something that had to be produced and made rather than, yeah, exactly rather than this thing of wonder.

1342
01:22:07.380 --> 01:22:11.159
I love how Sherwin pumps heart blood back into it.

1343
01:22:11.220 --> 01:22:11.939
Oh, yeah.

1344
01:22:11.939 --> 01:22:18.479
And he's another person, Sherman, I think, that really does get it. really puts the effort in.

1345
01:22:18.539 --> 01:22:25.739
I mean, I said last podcast that even though season 5 is more successful than season 6, like 1st season 6 because it's imaginative again.

1346
01:22:25.800 --> 01:22:27.180
Yeah, yeah, I think so too.

1347
01:22:27.300 --> 01:22:30.659
Yeah, I think it's time for some salt Mary avoid.

1348
01:22:30.720 --> 01:22:32.699
Magic magic chen.

1349
01:22:32.760 --> 01:22:34.979
A monoid or the morpho brains?

1350
01:22:35.039 --> 01:22:36.000
Right.

1351
01:22:36.060 --> 01:22:37.500
Um...

1352
01:22:37.500 --> 01:22:41.640
I think I'd have to avoid the more for brains.

1353
01:22:41.699 --> 01:22:46.739
I think possibly because I, possibly because I am a Doctor Who fan.

1354
01:22:46.800 --> 01:22:53.340
I had this thing about not wanting to be controlled and confined because everyone in Doctor Who Stories is controlled and confined by the alien matter.

1355
01:22:53.399 --> 01:22:55.619
So I couldn't deal with an morpho brain at all.

1356
01:22:56.100 --> 01:22:58.979
I think I'd have to snog the monoid.

1357
01:22:59.039 --> 01:23:00.659
How can you solve the monitor?

1358
01:23:00.720 --> 01:23:01.560
They don't have mouths.

1359
01:23:01.619 --> 01:23:03.779
Oh, they're like big pongols in their mouth.

1360
01:23:03.840 --> 01:23:05.340
Oh, they eat chicken through their necks.

1361
01:23:05.399 --> 01:23:06.060
Oh, well.

1362
01:23:06.060 --> 01:23:09.600
How unfortunate, then it has to marry Mavic Chan.

1363
01:23:09.600 --> 01:23:12.539
Just put everyone to death who annoyed me.

1364
01:23:12.600 --> 01:23:15.899
So yeah, marry mamic Chen, snogger monoids somehow.

1365
01:23:15.960 --> 01:23:20.279
It'd be interesting finding out, as Captain Jack would say, and avoid the morpho brain.

1366
01:23:20.399 --> 01:23:22.140
All right, wretched.

1367
01:23:22.199 --> 01:23:22.920
Marga.

1368
01:23:22.979 --> 01:23:23.880
Oh yeah.

1369
01:23:25.319 --> 01:23:26.819
Which one?

1370
01:23:26.880 --> 01:23:27.600
Cara?

1371
01:23:27.600 --> 01:23:28.439
Theoda War.

1372
01:23:28.500 --> 01:23:30.600
This is going to be tough one, isn't it?

1373
01:23:30.659 --> 01:23:31.319
Cafe.

1374
01:23:31.380 --> 01:23:33.359
Betty cat cat.

1375
01:23:33.420 --> 01:23:34.439
Betty Cafe.

1376
01:23:34.500 --> 01:23:35.279
Is that a name?

1377
01:23:35.340 --> 01:23:36.539
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1378
01:23:37.500 --> 01:23:42.119
It always comes down to who's eliminate by Lease Resistance.

1379
01:23:42.180 --> 01:23:43.380
Who's the best one party with?

1380
01:23:43.439 --> 01:23:48.659
Fiona Walker, I think we all decided it was a bit drainy when we were doing...

1381
01:23:48.659 --> 01:23:50.399
So, in those courtrooms.

1382
01:23:50.460 --> 01:23:55.199
I just like her in everything, so I'd probably want to snob going to walkers or something wrong with them.

1383
01:23:55.260 --> 01:23:57.300
I think she'd be dangerous if you kept her around for too long.

1384
01:23:57.359 --> 01:23:58.680
She'd probably have you killed, actually.

1385
01:23:59.460 --> 01:24:02.460
But only if you blurt it out all your plans.

1386
01:24:03.300 --> 01:24:06.119
And Kaftan was another one. was she?

1387
01:24:06.180 --> 01:24:14.159
Yes. really No, no, it's the problem.

1388
01:24:14.220 --> 01:24:15.180
Who are you going to get along with?

1389
01:24:15.239 --> 01:24:15.840
Actually, you know what?

1390
01:24:15.840 --> 01:24:18.539
I'll probably have to marry if you want to walk or just pushing you the most woods.

1391
01:24:18.600 --> 01:24:22.319
I think should be the most fun to hang out with because Benny's a little bit single-minded.

1392
01:24:22.380 --> 01:24:25.560
I don't know that she might be, she might be fine.

1393
01:24:25.619 --> 01:24:26.819
Yeah, maybe I'll have to redress that.

1394
01:24:26.880 --> 01:24:29.699
She might be fine to party with Marga. actually.

1395
01:24:30.000 --> 01:24:34.680
Yeah, I just don't know that we're going to get on that well in the end of it.

1396
01:24:34.739 --> 01:24:37.920
She'll just put me in an airlock. in a cardigan.

1397
01:24:37.979 --> 01:24:39.659
Barbara's cardigan.

1398
01:24:39.720 --> 01:24:44.279
Yeah, and we'll all just be, you know, sort of like, don't we see relationships spent in a fridge?

1399
01:24:44.340 --> 01:24:48.779
So, yeah, she's probably sorry, Mark, I love you to death, but death is where we're going to end up.

1400
01:24:48.840 --> 01:24:50.159
Okay.

1401
01:24:50.220 --> 01:24:50.939
Nathan.

1402
01:24:51.000 --> 01:24:52.619
It's not marry a void.

1403
01:24:52.680 --> 01:24:54.720
Sandy the Sandbanks.

1404
01:24:54.779 --> 01:24:58.199
Voltan and the carcass.

1405
01:24:58.319 --> 01:24:59.880
Or too easy.

1406
01:24:59.939 --> 01:25:07.020
I think the sand beast, Botan and the carcass. robbing that rubber jumpsuit.

1407
01:25:07.079 --> 01:25:10.920
It's so awful, that costume, and it's clearly that he's not.

1408
01:25:10.979 --> 01:25:12.840
He's gorgeous.

1409
01:25:12.899 --> 01:25:14.520
Are you seeing him out of it?

1410
01:25:14.579 --> 01:25:17.579
No, I've only seen him as a Cyberman.

1411
01:25:17.579 --> 01:25:22.920
Hands on hips, everyone. like 2 of the worst performances in Doctor Who history.

1412
01:25:22.979 --> 01:25:26.579
So I guess he would have to be endlessly entertaining.

1413
01:25:26.640 --> 01:25:31.979
So I'm heading towards marrying the carcass, actually, which would have to make...

1414
01:25:32.039 --> 01:25:34.680
Could I slow botan without being electrocuted?

1415
01:25:34.739 --> 01:25:35.399
How would I do?

1416
01:25:35.460 --> 01:25:38.399
Yeah, I think I think it's a given that you'd survive any of these.

1417
01:25:38.460 --> 01:25:39.000
Okay.

1418
01:25:39.180 --> 01:25:45.119
I buy computers.. yeah.

1419
01:25:45.180 --> 01:25:46.680
You could do them on the side.

1420
01:25:46.739 --> 01:25:48.060
I mean you don't need to talk.

1421
01:25:48.119 --> 01:25:49.260
Sandy does have tusks.

1422
01:25:49.739 --> 01:25:54.000
Yeah, unfortunate problem with Barbara's...

1423
01:25:54.000 --> 01:25:55.319
But you just shoot.

1424
01:25:55.680 --> 01:25:58.079
Baby or a firework.

1425
01:25:58.319 --> 01:26:00.899
I think I would have to...

1426
01:26:00.899 --> 01:26:05.760
I could marry Wotan and then just talk to him in our goal when I got sick of him when he would explode.

1427
01:26:05.819 --> 01:26:09.899
It's actually true as well, who do you want to spend least time with your mistress or your partner?

1428
01:26:09.960 --> 01:26:10.800
Yeah, yeah.

1429
01:26:10.859 --> 01:26:11.520
Yeah.

1430
01:26:11.520 --> 01:26:13.439
Okay, so...

1431
01:26:13.439 --> 01:26:14.939
Oh, marry Votan.

1432
01:26:15.000 --> 01:26:17.100
Yeah, and avoid Sandy.

1433
01:26:17.159 --> 01:26:21.119
Who would win in a showdown between Tobias Bourne and Magic Magic Magic Jane?

1434
01:26:21.180 --> 01:26:21.960
Vaughan.

1435
01:26:22.020 --> 01:26:22.859
Yeah, easily.

1436
01:26:22.920 --> 01:26:24.840
Check is too kind of crazy.

1437
01:26:24.899 --> 01:26:26.760
Yeah, Thorn has a sense of humour.

1438
01:26:26.880 --> 01:26:29.939
Well, it's also it's just more higher functioning narcissist.

1439
01:26:30.000 --> 01:26:33.239
They're actually essentially the same person in many ways, aren't they?

1440
01:26:33.300 --> 01:26:40.199
But yeah, yeah, he's there's definitely more of the street wise in Vaughan than there is in.

1441
01:26:40.260 --> 01:26:42.239
I think Vaughn is a much.

1442
01:26:42.300 --> 01:26:44.579
There's still some punch below the bell.

1443
01:26:44.699 --> 01:26:54.119
There's still cam overacting Doctor Who villain performances, but Vaughan is much more complex and interesting, I think.

1444
01:26:54.180 --> 01:26:58.140
Plus, I'm just a completely physical, no, born.

1445
01:26:58.199 --> 01:26:59.760
I just realised has a cyber body.

1446
01:26:59.819 --> 01:27:02.159
He could just He's got incredible strength.

1447
01:27:02.220 --> 01:27:04.199
And those fingernails that really do my mischief.

1448
01:27:04.260 --> 01:27:05.939
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1449
01:27:06.000 --> 01:27:07.800
Well, look at how he has to write.

1450
01:27:10.979 --> 01:27:17.220
That mid-career, Barbara Streisand, where she could never hold a mic without cutting herself.

1451
01:27:17.279 --> 01:27:24.239
So is Kevin's journey your favourite guest or is it filmmatic or who is your favourite guest?

1452
01:27:24.359 --> 01:27:25.800
favourite guest star.

1453
01:27:25.859 --> 01:27:27.420
You know what?

1454
01:27:27.479 --> 01:27:46.380
Because he's so underplayed and because he very rarely got any lines, I'm going to go for Peter Diamond, who was the stuntman many times, he did Kenton Moore's stunt walking into the River Thames in Dire Convasion of Earth, but he's probably most recognised for his role as Delos, Ian's little friend in the Romans.

1455
01:27:46.859 --> 01:27:53.579
And of course, you know, one more time for the 60s, that was one of the ones that Rod read a homerotic relationship.

1456
01:27:53.640 --> 01:27:54.239
Yes.

1457
01:27:54.239 --> 01:27:55.800
I think, and they...

1458
01:27:55.800 --> 01:27:58.319
Sheet before she wrote back the Mountain.

1459
01:27:58.380 --> 01:28:00.300
Yeah, entertaining both of them.

1460
01:28:00.359 --> 01:28:01.739
No, she doesn't.

1461
01:28:01.800 --> 01:28:03.060
She'd never written that.

1462
01:28:03.119 --> 01:28:11.039
No, what any person about Brokeback Mountain just recently saw is very tired that people see this about a homerotic cowboy story and nothing else.

1463
01:28:11.100 --> 01:28:13.560
And she gets bam sick every bloody day.

1464
01:28:13.619 --> 01:28:17.579
About saying, you know, one of them died and the other one, sorry, if you haven't seen it.

1465
01:28:17.640 --> 01:28:21.420
Read it to me. is that, you know, they keep going on and having affairs.

1466
01:28:21.479 --> 01:28:22.920
She said, it's about homophobia.

1467
01:28:22.979 --> 01:28:28.500
It's about the perception of homophobia between men who are ostensibly straight, and then thrown into a situation.

1468
01:28:28.560 --> 01:28:31.560
Love is love, companionship is companionship and sexuality.

1469
01:28:31.680 --> 01:28:35.579
It will a river finds its own course. needs need to be met.

1470
01:28:35.640 --> 01:28:46.140
And the home of, she, she even sees needing this to be maintained as a sensibly and over and above, a queer relationship is not getting the point.

1471
01:28:46.199 --> 01:28:48.960
Oh, well, if you're listening, E any proof.

1472
01:28:49.020 --> 01:28:51.300
She's a great friend of the podcast.

1473
01:28:51.359 --> 01:28:54.000
I actually read this when I was 17.

1474
01:28:54.180 --> 01:28:57.000
I read it for my HSE English and I got that at the time.

1475
01:28:57.000 --> 01:29:00.119
And of course, I was, yeah, very deep in the closet at that time.

1476
01:29:00.180 --> 01:29:03.720
But yeah, I, I, I, and it really helps.

1477
01:29:03.779 --> 01:29:06.420
Oh, well, the closet is closed.

1478
01:29:06.479 --> 01:29:08.579
And how did you get a lot of them?

1479
01:29:08.640 --> 01:29:09.600
Yes.

1480
01:29:09.659 --> 01:29:11.399
Have I got a lot of Doctor Who girls?

1481
01:29:11.460 --> 01:29:12.420
Yeah.

1482
01:29:12.420 --> 01:29:13.500
But...

1483
01:29:13.500 --> 01:29:17.880
I have actually never watched the film because for me it can't live up.

1484
01:29:18.000 --> 01:29:19.739
Yeah, it's a different text.

1485
01:29:19.800 --> 01:29:20.880
It's different actually.

1486
01:29:20.939 --> 01:29:21.779
It is a bit beautiful.

1487
01:29:21.899 --> 01:29:23.460
The cinematography is spectacular.

1488
01:29:23.520 --> 01:29:25.680
But it can't live up to the personal effects.

1489
01:29:25.739 --> 01:29:27.300
That's right.

1490
01:29:27.359 --> 01:29:33.899
And I think that's a, that's a bit like Richard, your reluctance to watch some of the recons because for you, those stories are the novels.

1491
01:29:33.960 --> 01:29:38.819
Yeah, and the audios, and I get a purity with that that I don't get with those.

1492
01:29:38.819 --> 01:29:44.220
I find that visual, if it's not the original visual, really interrupts the flow of the story.

1493
01:29:44.279 --> 01:29:47.880
And I noticed that you 2 have said on some stories that I really like.

1494
01:29:47.939 --> 01:29:50.340
Oh, this is interminable or that team word again.

1495
01:29:50.399 --> 01:29:52.920
And yet I really enjoy them.

1496
01:29:52.979 --> 01:29:56.220
You don't get that when you're imagination for me.

1497
01:29:56.279 --> 01:30:00.060
It's like I hate 3D films, can't go to see them, David and Margaret.

1498
01:30:00.119 --> 01:30:02.460
I can't because it's interrupting the flow.

1499
01:30:02.520 --> 01:30:04.020
I don't I have my own imagination.

1500
01:30:04.079 --> 01:30:06.779
I don't need extra stuff being thrown on.

1501
01:30:06.840 --> 01:30:07.800
I can picture it myself.

1502
01:30:07.859 --> 01:30:11.039
So I don't need the visual interruptions.

1503
01:30:11.220 --> 01:30:15.239
I do actually prefer most 60s stories as audios.

1504
01:30:15.300 --> 01:30:17.880
A lot of them I'd listen to audios before.

1505
01:30:17.939 --> 01:30:19.979
Like Dalek Master Plan, I've grown.

1506
01:30:20.100 --> 01:30:20.819
Great audio.

1507
01:30:20.880 --> 01:30:24.359
Thank you, because Victoria, you're going to say, would we recommend something that doesn't exist?

1508
01:30:24.479 --> 01:30:26.640
I listen to master plan many times.

1509
01:30:26.760 --> 01:30:27.840
It's wonderful, is it?

1510
01:30:27.899 --> 01:30:28.439
It is great.

1511
01:30:28.500 --> 01:30:29.399
I enjoy it more each time.

1512
01:30:29.460 --> 01:30:36.479
But I did I did want to be able to develop an opinion about the design and, you know, what you could determine from the clinical pervert.

1513
01:30:36.479 --> 01:30:44.699
And so I was a little bit I was a little bit OCD about making sure that everything I watched, you know, in whatever form.

1514
01:30:44.760 --> 01:30:45.420
It was available.

1515
01:30:45.479 --> 01:30:47.220
What was the question?

1516
01:30:47.279 --> 01:30:48.899
It doesn't really matter.

1517
01:30:48.960 --> 01:30:51.479
My question was, who was your favourite gift starter?

1518
01:30:52.140 --> 01:30:54.899
I'm just going to say again, Peter Diamond.

1519
01:30:54.960 --> 01:30:59.939
I just couldn't get my picture away from just how the usual Peter down what a little diamond in the rough he was.

1520
01:31:00.960 --> 01:31:02.819
There are so many.

1521
01:31:02.880 --> 01:31:06.060
I think I probably answered that by answering another question.

1522
01:31:06.119 --> 01:31:14.880
I mean, I, I guess, is pretty remarkable, you know, in the 2 roles that he has in season six.

1523
01:31:14.939 --> 01:31:22.319
Not to mention broccoli, cubby broccoli in cubby broccoli, obviously, in the in that dalek film.

1524
01:31:22.380 --> 01:31:29.100
Um, he is he's pretty spectacular and he will come back a couple of times before the show's finished.

1525
01:31:29.159 --> 01:31:30.720
We have to mention Roberta Toby.

1526
01:31:30.779 --> 01:31:33.060
Every, again, you go to.

1527
01:31:33.119 --> 01:31:34.079
Oh, no, no, terrible.

1528
01:31:34.199 --> 01:31:35.640
She actually great in the 2nd film.

1529
01:31:35.699 --> 01:31:36.720
She runs the story.

1530
01:31:36.779 --> 01:31:38.640
She's the plucky young heroine.

1531
01:31:38.699 --> 01:31:39.539
Yeah, Roberto Tone.

1532
01:31:39.600 --> 01:31:41.340
If I had picked someone...

1533
01:31:41.579 --> 01:31:43.140
You know what?

1534
01:31:43.199 --> 01:31:46.079
If I had to pick an artist from the films to come into the series.

1535
01:31:46.500 --> 01:31:49.260
I love the idea of a younger Susan.

1536
01:31:49.319 --> 01:31:49.979
How amazing.

1537
01:31:50.039 --> 01:31:59.699
And then we would have avoided all those problems of the sexuality of the younger person and, you know, just because we talked about the rapiness and all of that or that she always needs to be rescued.

1538
01:31:59.760 --> 01:32:02.340
If Susan had been a little girl, totally different.

1539
01:32:02.399 --> 01:32:04.680
And I will also... like Amelia Pond.

1540
01:32:04.739 --> 01:32:05.819
How amazing that would have been.

1541
01:32:05.880 --> 01:32:09.300
I will also say that by pushing forward Roberta Toby in that.

1542
01:32:09.420 --> 01:32:14.039
I could take a lead Peter Cushing being in Doctor Who, the main series proper.

1543
01:32:14.100 --> 01:32:18.239
I thought he'd do a great job in the films, but I would love to see more of Reverse Hovey in anything.

1544
01:32:18.300 --> 01:32:19.079
Oh wow.

1545
01:32:19.079 --> 01:32:20.819
Best Billy Floss.

1546
01:32:24.239 --> 01:32:26.819
I think it's the ones that were trying it out.

1547
01:32:26.939 --> 01:32:33.539
Maybe I should say like the best comedy moments that's not meant to be comedy, but it could be Billy, it could be somebody else, you know.

1548
01:32:33.600 --> 01:32:34.619
That's the great thing.

1549
01:32:34.680 --> 01:32:35.640
We don't know, do we?

1550
01:32:35.699 --> 01:32:37.619
How much of it was in covering up?

1551
01:32:37.680 --> 01:32:50.939
Sentimental value for me goes to, um, if you had had your shoes, you could have lent her hers because I adapted that for the 1st introduction to the podcast where I say we're the only Doctor Who podcast where...

1552
01:32:50.939 --> 01:32:53.340
And I did...

1553
01:32:53.399 --> 01:32:53.640
Yeah.

1554
01:32:53.640 --> 01:32:54.060
Yeah.

1555
01:32:54.119 --> 01:32:56.159
And I didn't know if that would work and you 2 guys laughed.

1556
01:32:56.220 --> 01:32:57.239
I'm like, right, that'll work.

1557
01:32:57.300 --> 01:32:59.640
So that's that's got to be mine.

1558
01:32:59.699 --> 01:33:05.880
Like, if you had her shoes, you could have lent her hers because, and I think also because It could have been a fluff, but at the same time it works for the character.

1559
01:33:06.119 --> 01:33:13.800
So I think it was some, is it one of the sense, right, who uh, he's someone over talking?

1560
01:33:13.859 --> 01:33:14.460
Yes.

1561
01:33:14.460 --> 01:33:15.300
I think it is.

1562
01:33:15.359 --> 01:33:20.520
So they're desperately desperate about how to finish that line, kind of losing their way.

1563
01:33:20.579 --> 01:33:34.140
But sentimentally, I think my favourite Billy Fluff is the lost in Spain one where he just says you'll end up as a pair of burnt out cinders floating about in Spain, space.

1564
01:33:34.199 --> 01:33:36.359
I think partly the reason that I like it.

1565
01:33:36.420 --> 01:33:49.199
And again, I've talked about this scene already, this episode. is the scene is so emotional and the doctor is so upset that it kind of is understandable that he gets blustered and can't complete his line properly.

1566
01:33:49.260 --> 01:33:55.500
So while it's sort of hilarious and we're constantly talking about adventures in Spain and time and all of that sort of thing.

1567
01:33:55.560 --> 01:33:58.199
I think it has a little emotional content as well.

1568
01:33:58.260 --> 01:34:00.300
So that's my favourite Billy Club, frankly.

1569
01:34:00.359 --> 01:34:00.840
Richard?

1570
01:34:00.899 --> 01:34:02.699
How can you go past the mountain goat?

1571
01:34:02.760 --> 01:34:06.300
Yeah And besides, I prefer walking any day.

1572
01:34:06.420 --> 01:34:07.140
That's right.

1573
01:34:07.739 --> 01:34:12.539
Or indeed prizing Chatterton off the fornicator.

1574
01:34:12.600 --> 01:34:17.579
I should say, which didn't get kept in although it's in the adventures in Spain and time, isn't it?

1575
01:34:18.659 --> 01:34:32.760
I've also been quite fond of in the Space Museum of some phosphorus and substance in the walls, mainly because it's a 2 shot of Billy and Jackie's faces and Jackie doesn't even blink.

1576
01:34:32.819 --> 01:34:36.899
Jackie just sort of keeps nodding like, yes, doctor, what you're saying is perfect sense.

1577
01:34:36.960 --> 01:34:39.060
So that's mostly for Jackie Rob, the Billy.

1578
01:34:39.060 --> 01:34:40.140
All right.

1579
01:34:40.199 --> 01:34:42.300
I've only got a couple of questions remaining.

1580
01:34:42.359 --> 01:34:43.319
Your dream team.

1581
01:34:43.380 --> 01:34:45.119
You had to take a doctor.

1582
01:34:45.539 --> 01:34:48.539
And a set of companions who is your dream.

1583
01:34:49.020 --> 01:34:51.600
It can be for me that, you know, I don't know.

1584
01:34:51.600 --> 01:34:53.039
It's hard to just thrown up, isn't it?

1585
01:34:53.100 --> 01:34:54.779
It's really easy.

1586
01:34:54.840 --> 01:35:02.159
It's just the 1st doctor, Barbara, Ian and Vicky, just about my favourite companion group.

1587
01:35:02.159 --> 01:35:05.699
So I don't have to go do anachronism or anything like that.

1588
01:35:05.699 --> 01:35:07.079
She's my favourite.

1589
01:35:07.140 --> 01:35:12.359
I only have to do a slight anachronym because I would say the 2nd doctor in Barbara and Vicki.

1590
01:35:12.420 --> 01:35:13.260
Oh, that would be something.

1591
01:35:13.319 --> 01:35:16.859
But you wouldn't get Hartnell and Jackie together.

1592
01:35:16.859 --> 01:35:21.659
And I think that that's one of the kind of key elements of that TARS crew.

1593
01:35:21.779 --> 01:35:28.020
You see, I think you would get Paddy flirting with Jackie and Jackie just completely going, nah, nah.

1594
01:35:28.079 --> 01:35:31.260
So don't again, you get to choose one that is established.

1595
01:35:31.319 --> 01:35:36.840
I would actually go for Pat Jamie and Zoe, possibly because they were my 1st black and white team.

1596
01:35:36.899 --> 01:35:39.180
We're staying within the 60s, aren't we?

1597
01:35:39.239 --> 01:35:50.220
That's correct Well, more of Billy and Billy getting support, I'd like to see Billy and Barbara going for the 4 years, so to speak, and I'd like curse to you.

1598
01:35:50.279 --> 01:35:54.119
I'd like Hannah Gordon as the companion. if we go into the 60s.

1599
01:35:54.180 --> 01:36:01.199
And maybe Jamie can stay on the Battle of Cologne chasing that red coat and to a beautiful relationship somewhere over there, though.

1600
01:36:01.319 --> 01:36:03.539
And we've got that Kirsty into a war game.

1601
01:36:03.600 --> 01:36:05.520
Can I just have more women, please?

1602
01:36:05.579 --> 01:36:06.359
That would be good too.

1603
01:36:06.420 --> 01:36:15.180
That is a great response and it does trigger my mind as to my question I was going to ask, which one character should have been a companion, wasn't it?

1604
01:36:15.180 --> 01:36:16.439
And you just that for me.

1605
01:36:16.500 --> 01:36:19.560
You guys, anybody that you think should have been picked up and?

1606
01:36:19.739 --> 01:36:21.539
Oh, Samantha Briggs.

1607
01:36:21.600 --> 01:36:22.500
Really?

1608
01:36:22.560 --> 01:36:24.899
Yeah.

1609
01:36:24.899 --> 01:36:25.500
Is she that?

1610
01:36:25.500 --> 01:36:26.279
Great though.

1611
01:36:26.340 --> 01:36:29.039
I mean, wouldn't it get a bit great in Sicily?

1612
01:36:29.100 --> 01:36:32.039
turned out she would have had an RP accent probably.

1613
01:36:32.100 --> 01:36:39.060
Yeah, it started spraying and whinge. that's right No, no, well, I mean, you know, she's a great actress and she had real chemistry with Jamie.

1614
01:36:39.119 --> 01:36:39.779
It was...

1615
01:36:39.840 --> 01:36:46.319
She actually made him a lot more interesting, not offence to the actor, but the characters, well, Jamie was more interesting with her.

1616
01:36:46.380 --> 01:36:46.619
Yeah.

1617
01:36:46.680 --> 01:36:50.460
She's the one who's most obviously being groomed to be a companion, I think.

1618
01:36:50.579 --> 01:36:51.060
Yeah.

1619
01:36:51.119 --> 01:36:52.020
Well, she was off it.

1620
01:36:52.079 --> 01:36:52.260
Yeah.

1621
01:36:52.260 --> 01:36:54.119
For me, Jim McCallen.

1622
01:36:55.859 --> 01:36:58.739
It's a very not the reanimated course of just.

1623
01:36:58.800 --> 01:37:01.800
No, no, no, no, sorry, I am going to take that back.

1624
01:37:01.859 --> 01:37:06.720
She still would have been great, but...

1625
01:37:06.779 --> 01:37:07.319
Maria.

1626
01:37:07.319 --> 01:37:09.359
Oh, Maria. let me say this.

1627
01:37:09.420 --> 01:37:09.899
Hang on now.

1628
01:37:09.960 --> 01:37:13.560
Gemma Cole, we're talking...

1629
01:37:13.619 --> 01:37:14.939
What did you about Gia Kelly?

1630
01:37:16.079 --> 01:37:18.300
I mean, she's and she's great.

1631
01:37:18.359 --> 01:37:19.079
Travis.

1632
01:37:19.140 --> 01:37:21.479
And Travis. you know, she was meant to be.

1633
01:37:21.539 --> 01:37:28.739
She's not only the least short character in the 70s, that was envisioned, but she was actually meant to be back for invasion.

1634
01:37:29.100 --> 01:37:30.720
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1635
01:37:30.779 --> 01:37:32.279
Yeah, you said Korean.

1636
01:37:32.340 --> 01:37:32.939
Korea.

1637
01:37:33.000 --> 01:37:34.199
Korea is my 1st one.

1638
01:37:34.260 --> 01:37:35.399
Yes, yes, thank you for everything.

1639
01:37:35.520 --> 01:37:36.720
Because Korea would have been so me.

1640
01:37:36.779 --> 01:37:40.619
First, she would be, she's a strong female character. written intelligently.

1641
01:37:40.680 --> 01:37:46.199
She has a very similar backstory to Victoria in that she's an orphan, but you know, she is angry about it.

1642
01:37:46.260 --> 01:37:50.460
And, yeah, she she is out to destroy the world.

1643
01:37:50.699 --> 01:37:57.899
She's actually the ace character, but more but more mature and more intelligently written in the 1st part than yeah.

1644
01:37:57.960 --> 01:37:59.880
And she is a non-Caucasian actor.

1645
01:37:59.939 --> 01:38:01.439
Which was...

1646
01:38:01.439 --> 01:38:02.579
It's okay to say black, I think.

1647
01:38:02.640 --> 01:38:08.819
Well, I'm just saying in general, non-Caucasian actors were very uncommon in 60s, Dr. who continued to do.

1648
01:38:08.880 --> 01:38:09.720
They're not, actually.

1649
01:38:09.779 --> 01:38:12.779
They're much more common than they are in the 70s, I think.

1650
01:38:12.840 --> 01:38:15.720
Maybe that's something we will discover very soon.

1651
01:38:15.779 --> 01:38:16.380
Yeah, actually.

1652
01:38:16.439 --> 01:38:18.779
Okay, final... final question.

1653
01:38:18.840 --> 01:38:21.359
Your nomination to the whole same.

1654
01:38:21.420 --> 01:38:22.859
The horn of fame.

1655
01:38:22.920 --> 01:38:23.880
Hall of Fame.

1656
01:38:24.000 --> 01:38:25.020
Who gets the horn?

1657
01:38:25.800 --> 01:38:27.479
Snigger.

1658
01:38:27.659 --> 01:38:29.640
Go back to that game.

1659
01:38:29.640 --> 01:38:31.079
I'm going to rustle on the thing.

1660
01:38:31.140 --> 01:38:33.720
Like, it has to be either trout.

1661
01:38:33.840 --> 01:38:35.039
Do you know what I mean?

1662
01:38:35.100 --> 01:38:45.180
who rescues the program where when it's doing something massively desperate and risky and crazy by recasting the lead with no explanation.

1663
01:38:45.239 --> 01:38:48.180
And because, as you said, yeah, a few people could have done what throughout.

1664
01:38:48.239 --> 01:38:56.880
And he's the template for all subsequent doctors, people don't base their performances of heart and all, and even the idea of what the doctor is like is largely established by Trouton.

1665
01:38:56.939 --> 01:38:58.920
But maybe it has to be his mother verity.

1666
01:38:58.979 --> 01:39:00.359
Yes.

1667
01:39:00.539 --> 01:39:01.619
Do you know what I mean?

1668
01:39:01.680 --> 01:39:03.239
Like, um, yeah.

1669
01:39:03.420 --> 01:39:06.239
Um, Sydney Newman.

1670
01:39:06.300 --> 01:39:14.039
But not, you know, not really for dreaming up the concept of the program, because it's arguable how much of it he came up with.

1671
01:39:14.159 --> 01:39:15.060
Very little apparently.

1672
01:39:15.119 --> 01:39:16.560
You just skirted them off, yeah.

1673
01:39:16.619 --> 01:39:27.239
But what several people have said he did do was when Patrick Troughton was coming into it and wanted to black up and put a turban on or put on a false beard or pretty much to pretty much turn it into a caricature.

1674
01:39:27.239 --> 01:39:29.640
Sydney Newman came in and said, no, no, no, we want simple.

1675
01:39:29.699 --> 01:39:32.220
What about what about the cosmic hobo ID you had?

1676
01:39:32.279 --> 01:39:34.199
And Patrick took that and ran with it?

1677
01:39:34.260 --> 01:39:36.000
I think...

1678
01:39:36.060 --> 01:39:44.279
Yeah, Patrick saved the show, but without that simple idea of, no, no, no, you're not playing a caricature, you are playing a character. keep it simple.

1679
01:39:44.340 --> 01:39:48.300
I think without that, the show would have died before we even got the yeti.

1680
01:39:48.479 --> 01:39:52.380
So there would have been that to a big separate.

1681
01:39:52.439 --> 01:39:53.819
We wouldn't be here.

1682
01:39:53.880 --> 01:39:55.439
Yes, he is so stupid.

1683
01:39:56.880 --> 01:40:10.619
I like the I like the context thing, though, that they throw A into Amos to enter B scenario and you can really literally throw anything for the tooting beck, but Lou could have been a monster itself. by the end of it.

1684
01:40:12.420 --> 01:40:19.800
I feel like we talk about the dream team and we've talked about Mark Davis's adventures in space and time.

1685
01:40:19.800 --> 01:40:25.560
And for the obvious omission of that is something we talk about all the time, Whittaker wasn't talked about.

1686
01:40:25.619 --> 01:40:29.100
Wasn't nothing in the in the space and time.

1687
01:40:29.159 --> 01:40:30.479
Yeah, he sort of took on the Whittaker.

1688
01:40:30.539 --> 01:40:31.199
Yeah, interesting.

1689
01:40:31.260 --> 01:40:33.359
And I just think that that's such an omission.

1690
01:40:33.420 --> 01:40:45.840
Um, We took a script, everything is one of, is the major reason it had the sense of mystery and oddness, verity was holding it all together and visionary that she allowed people to do wondrous things, but I don't know how much creative role she had.

1691
01:40:45.899 --> 01:40:46.800
I don't think she had the time.

1692
01:40:46.859 --> 01:40:47.520
No.

1693
01:40:47.520 --> 01:40:51.539
I think Whitaker creates the TARDIS properly understands the dialect.

1694
01:40:51.600 --> 01:41:00.300
And it's Whitaker that allows the doctor to be all of these spiky fracture things that are uncomfortable, but still bring back his humanity.

1695
01:41:00.420 --> 01:41:07.260
And then it's the performances of Jacqueline Hill and the other cast that bring that all together.

1696
01:41:07.319 --> 01:41:11.159
But yeah, I think Whittaker is a really important part of that chemistry.

1697
01:41:20.220 --> 01:41:24.060
Well, dear listeners, I don't want to thank the gentleman for the air romance today.

1698
01:41:24.119 --> 01:41:25.619
It's been...

1699
01:41:25.619 --> 01:41:27.000
I've been changing years.

1700
01:41:27.119 --> 01:41:29.279
It has been for me, you know, asking.

1701
01:41:29.819 --> 01:41:38.520
And of course, you know, we're heading into the 70s and there's some burning questions that, you know, we will need ants, Rodan or Romana.

1702
01:41:38.579 --> 01:41:40.800
Gala free or gala free.

1703
01:41:40.859 --> 01:41:43.199
Sarah Jane or Sarah?

1704
01:41:43.260 --> 01:41:45.720
The Eocenes or Siurians.

1705
01:41:45.779 --> 01:41:48.180
Which unit captain is the best?

1706
01:41:48.239 --> 01:41:50.699
Turner, Monroe, Hawkins, or Yates.

1707
01:41:50.760 --> 01:41:56.340
How large was Lee Shaw's expense account for those glamorous props of hairs?

1708
01:41:56.399 --> 01:42:04.380
Our 7 episode stories worth their weight in gold, and will we get a funky 70s remix of the podcast theme too?

1709
01:42:04.979 --> 01:42:06.720
Can only know.

1710
01:42:06.779 --> 01:42:07.859
Thank you.

1711
01:42:07.920 --> 01:42:09.420
Thanks for everyone.

1712
01:42:09.479 --> 01:42:10.260
Thank you all for listening.

1713
01:42:16.319 --> 01:42:21.960
You've been listening to Flat Mentality with Nathan Botany, Roman James, Richard Sodan, special guest star, Todd Bielby.

1714
01:42:22.020 --> 01:42:26.880
This episode, how can you snog a monoid was recorded on the 30th of December, 2014?

1715
01:42:26.939 --> 01:42:29.640
The next episode would be released on January 17th.

1716
01:42:29.699 --> 01:42:36.600
We wish to dedicate this episode to the memory of Bernard Kay, who appeared in several 1960s Doctor Who stories, and it still has one more coming up.

1717
01:42:40.140 --> 01:42:44.880
I'm wondering if you're going to start incorporating snob barrier void into your classes.

1718
01:42:44.939 --> 01:42:45.659
Oh, awesome.

1719
01:42:45.659 --> 01:42:47.220
So, boys, in the LA.

1720
01:42:47.340 --> 01:42:48.960
Stop merry boys.

1721
01:42:48.960 --> 01:42:51.600
I'm a chocolates.

1722
01:42:51.659 --> 01:42:54.239
I think I think we have to do it for the...

1723
01:42:54.960 --> 01:42:57.239
In Oedipus the King.

1724
01:42:57.300 --> 01:42:59.699
Oh, it takes on a hole.