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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:52:26

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Hello, Delissa, and welcome back to Flightthrough Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast still without a catchphrase after 200 episodes, but we're leaning towards marvellous.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Todd.

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I'm Peter.

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I'm feeling pretty fantastic for this one too.

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Well, we've flown all the way through the entirety of the 1st era of Doctor Who's 21st century incarnation, and so it's time to pause, regroup, and reassess before we head off into the wilds of the Stephen Moffatt era.

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Ladies and gentlemen, and trees and multiforms.

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Welcome to the Russell T. Davis retrospective.

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I want to start with the deepest questions possible.

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So it's time for a Snog Marrier boy.

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I want my bit of Mary Tam's cake that's been in the fridge for 200 years, if this is our anniversary.

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So Snog, Mary, avoid.

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Planet of Dead, waters of Mars, the end of time.

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I'm going to snog the end of time because it's fun, but I don't think it has that much staying power and I imagine it'd grow tiresome after, you know, quite a while.

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I want to marry, um, Planet of the Dead, because I just think it's terrifically fun, uh, and I will never grow weary of it, and I want to avoid waters of Mars.

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Well, I concur completely with you.

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Anyone else?

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Well, I think you'd quite like to marry Planet of the Dead, because who wouldn't want to lie in the sun all day long?

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Yeah, I'm not slogging those flies.

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Okay, so for this retrospective, we are looking at not only Russet T. Davies, but obviously David Tennant and Christopher Eccleston's time on the show, and I actually put some questions out on Twitter to some of our listeners, so they're going to be in the mix as well, so get ready for them.

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And we may as well start off with one.

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Professor Quitemes.

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Pete Lambert, ask this question.

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Why didn't he sound Scottish?

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I think you know the answer to this, don't you, Richard?

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Oh, because RTD said he's not going to be rattling up and down the M4 with accent.

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He's not reliving Dodo's career.

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But wasn't it also that he's supposed to absorb the character of his, of whom, with whom he is and his most emotional bond and at that point, that was cockney tooths and Billy Piper.

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I think there's dialogue, Cartram, the Christmas invasion, isn't there?

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To that end?

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Something like that.

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But I think it was.

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We're not doing a showcase of Britain's regional accents, was kind of the idea.

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Also, it was a little bit weird, doctor from Scotland filmed in Wales.

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It's like.

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I think he would have been better off without it, because I think he's sort of quite brooding and sexy in Broadchurch, and I just think that the accent hampers him, and the accent seems to get worse and worse as he goes on.

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I think Moffat puts a lovely bubble around it, doesn't he?

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Calling him Dick Van Dyke.

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It's also Russell's vision of the show is very London centric, which is why, you know, you're always visiting London landmarks and things like that.

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And so I think it was only natural extension once you'd lost Eccleston to go for a very London doctor.

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Yeah.

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I think that Russell just thought, well, David's such a big fan.

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He's going to be coming back to do every single special from now into eternity.

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So just as a bit of perverse fun, I'm going to force him to actually have an English accent, even when he's 80, you know, coming back to do these specials.

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That's my take on the whole thing.

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It's a bit of, it's a bit of fun from Russell.

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It's the accent that he does in Casanova as well, I think, which was kind of his audition piece.

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Yeah, And I think that's actually the reason we've got it because it was, you know, it was trial and worked for that.

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And also, I do find him a little bit difficult to follow in the same way that I found Dearest Sylvester that I, at the time, was begging for the DVD, so I could actually understand what he was saying back in the early 90s.

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And even with Capaldi, I have moments of what?

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I think the Americans have that same that same problem.

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I think that's right that maybe you wanted to channel David from Casanova because that was a very sexy take on that character and I think you needed some of that vibrant young energy for the role.

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Yeah.

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Speaking of sexy.

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Stephen Alexander has asked this question.

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It's definitely implied that the 10th doctor has sex at some point.

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Have any of the previous doctors had sex?

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I don't know, are we talking about members of the crew?

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I don't know, Peter, are we?

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Other cast members?

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God, I'm just thinking of our dear Billy Hartnall and his... and that very fluffy monoptera.

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It's come here, the commander of the ark.

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We know what they were doing in that security kitchen.

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Look, I choose to think that only pre-hearten or doctors have had sex.

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Ah, okay.

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But certainly they often want to have sex and quite visibly so, I think.

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I think Astrid was someone who appealed very much to the doctor and he can barely keep his hands off her.

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And Judith Paris, I think, was probably in considerable moral danger as well.

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Absolutely.

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The 6th doctor lingered a little while in front of those nappy men before running away.

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He did with a massive safety pin betwixt his front teeth.

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This episode will never air.

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But Tom was definitely polishing his rock collection as soon as Eltrad made her appearance, didn't he?

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He was definitely getting out his boy's own crystal radio set, wasn't he?

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tuning her up. you know, with Chris Eccleston and Jabe in end...

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Dynamic stuff.

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Definitely got some wood on for that one.

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No idea where I'm going with that.

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So okay, so we're talking about David Tennant, obviously, and what he has brought to the role.

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As we sit here now at the end of his era, watch your feelings towards him and what you've discovered in this rewatch.

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I think David Tennant is wonderful.

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I mean, I know he's a little bit polarising.

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There are, you know, amongst this podcast as well.

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You know, we don't always rate his performance, but I think he delivers every time.

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And there was something about his performance that was so accessible to the general public, that the series profile and popularity just went through the roof when he was the doctor.

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And I think that he is a big part of that.

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So not only was he a very good accessible doctor, which may be a reason why diehard fans, myself included, don't rate him amongst one of the best because he's quite broad.

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There was something about his charisma that really elevated the series, and you could see it on British television when he was the doctor.

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He was everywhere.

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He was around talk shows, sketch shows.

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He would host comedy shows and things.

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You couldn't get away from him so much so that when the end of time went out and he was on the Christmas I dent.

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People started to question, is there too much, David Tennant, because he was all over the place?

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And I think he was so good for the series, and so competent and so kind of invested in the series that it would be churlish to take anything away from him.

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I think that's a hugely underrated part of the job is the job of being an ambassador for the show on TV.

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And the 1st season didn't have that.

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Like Eccleston gave a sort of fairly reluctant interview, which is on the DVDs, but obviously he'd kind of left the production in a sort of sort of fairly unhappy frame of mind.

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And did turn up on Blue Peter that wants to surprise some little kitties, which I love him for.

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Okay, wonderful.

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I haven't seen that.

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But Tennant does a brilliant job of that.

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And he's just whip smart and charming and like super likeable and I think he does it really, very well.

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And he's one of us.

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He's a fan, you know, he can tell you a curse of Peladon from your monster of Peladon.

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He amazing.

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He makes a monoid joke in the... in the in the commentary on Forest of the Dead that was released at the time, which can be found somewhere on the FDA website.

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It's wonderful.

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He does this little trick with his ping pong balls popping them out, does he?

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That's it.

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I've seen that movie.

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Yes.

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Richard, what do you think of David?

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Oh, I'm rattling up and down the M1 and M4 as well.

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I look at the time.

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I thought he was glorious for all the reasons that you're saying he does glow on screen in a way.

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I mean, Tom described pertly as being incandescent.

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I think you can say the same for our David, and he does that very consciously and with great, with great a sense of tactics in the way he approaches the role.

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It's like I'm watching a war gamer.

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He definitely knows what he's doing.

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And there's a lot of, especially in the last, in these last story, the end of time, which, you know, is really just a, it's a big end soap, isn't it?

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There's a, yeah, I know we just did that this last 2 weeks, but it's, he manages it where it's actually a very difficult thing to do when you've got all of this hoop plug going on and it's really Barnum and Bailey.

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So to maintain gravitas during all of this, I think if we hadn't had burner cribbons, it wouldn't have worked.

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And I think that's actually the case with a lot of David's performances.

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They're a little too much for me at the time and watching them again.

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I really am with Stephen Moffatt.

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Maybe it was, maybe it's the accent.

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I don't, but I just maybe just also think that's the way Mr. Tennant approaches things.

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But if it weren't for Billy and Catherine and Freema, Definitely Bernard Cribbens, he seems to work best or be at his most, how can I put it, his most soluble, because otherwise I find him quite brittle.

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He's actually like a bit of shellac and you don't really want that in your mouth, do you?

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It's like biting a bit of old furniture.

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He's just so he's sort of brittle.

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It should be like toffee, but it's actually kind of tastes quite unpleasant once you've got him close.

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It's just the way that his brittleness of his acting.

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But he's one of those people that works best against a very good professional.

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So Russell definitely could see, I feel, his strengths and weaknesses, and you need someone as subtle as Russell is, who is all about the empathy with his performers to get that right.

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So yes, I feel that when we talk about tenant, we really need to talk about the so-called supporting cast.

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And also after Eccleston, who I think was very important to bring the actor back to the doctor, make sure that there was a good actor and a subtle actor playing him, you then needed to show that the doctor could still be a showman.

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And that's what David brings to the role as well.

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He's a very good actor, but he's also a showman on and offscreen.

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I've been surprised at the rewatch at how much I've actually enjoyed his performances.

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And I think, I mean, Nathan, you're nodding ahead, but it's one of the things that I really discovered that it was far less annoying than I had in my head, and I just was constantly surprised at how effortless and enjoyable he was to actually watch.

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And perhaps I only got a bit tired towards the end of his doctor.

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But certainly in that middle season, you know, 2 and 3 in the beginning of four, I really just was surprised at how much I was just enjoying him.

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I think that's my experience as well.

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I think I may have said before.

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I always find him much better than I expect him to be.

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And he never lets you down either.

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If there's a big moment which needs to be killed or whatever, he does it, the scenes I can think of where I don't think he delivers the best performance is always because the materials let him down.

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Right.

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So I'm thinking of that scene at the end of the doctor's daughter where he has to become really overwrought and the gun and I never would and all of that, very, very hard to pull off.

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Has a good stab at it though.

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Yeah, I think, I mean, I've said before in the last year that Waters of Mars, for instance, that performance at the end, like giving him the teeth acting opportunities, that that gives him that's a bad choice.

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Like, I do find that really alienating an off-putting.

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It is the era of the teeth, isn't it?

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A rich maximum toothiness in turn left, didn't we?

156
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That wasn't him, was it?

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Bob Ghibli. has asked a question, which relates to this, and I'm just paraphrasing this one, which 10th doctor scenes would have been more impactful, logical dramatic if Eccleston had stayed on to the end of time.

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Do you think he could have pulled off any of these scenes any better than Tape?

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It's a difficult question to answer.

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I think they just would have been different, really.

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I think that it's very clear that we're writing for a different doctor and we've given some thought to what David Tennant can do and how his performance is different from Christopher's performance.

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And I can refer the listeners and it'll be in the show notes to Elle Sander's essay on the idiot's lantern where she talks about a particular scene and how Tennant tackled it and how Eccleston would have tackled it differently.

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And I just think there's no time during the tenant era where I'm sitting there thinking I wish Chris had been here to do this.

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Bob's question that I was going to actually ask, was at what point do you stop seeing Eccleston as the doctor within the scripts of series 2 or 3 or maybe four?

165
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Following up to that, I don't see Eccleston at all.

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It's just David's there and they're tailored to him and that's my take on it.

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I really don't.

168
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Exactly.

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A good actor will take whatever the material is.

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This is the point.

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A writer may have one.

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Possibly if he's expansive, 2 or 3 variants on how he or she feels the performance will develop, but that's nothing to the almost infinite variety of performances that a good actor will give anything.

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I could see Eccleston really developing in this, but let's not underestimate his great fine skill.

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He's, I feel as a person, but of course I don't know him, but having watched his interviews and how Eccleston has responded to things over the years.

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I think he's a deeply sensitive, fraught man, and I think he would have really, if he'd felt nurtured.

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And if he'd felt safe in the production, I think he always felt safe with RTD, I believe his loyalty was still there with RTD, it was simply everything else that I hopes that's the case. anyway, perhaps I'm wrong.

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But I feel I have got a handle on how Eccleston works, having watched him for so many years, and I think he would have been fantastic, quote, to the end of this.

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His emotional range would have given the benefit of...

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Yeah, I certainly am not saying that I would have been sorry to see another year of Eccleston or another, you know, 3 or 4 years of Eccleston.

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I would have been absolutely fine with that because I think he is fantastic. feel he would have developed.

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He's, you know, his awkwardness with humour, it appeared.

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But that was also the role he was playing as a war veteran.

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He certainly had has the capacity and the empathy as an actor to do this. that thawing process.

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And if Billy had lasted the, who knows?

185
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I mean, maybe Billy wouldn't have so many, so many variables.

186
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I really would have liked to have seen him with Freema.

187
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I think we would have had a closer bond.

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We know offset. we all know as it's pretty much the public realm that there was tenants discomfort with something about Freema's casting or the role or whatever it was.

189
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And I think that would have been really interesting to see Eccleston's take on that.

190
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I don't believe that would have been there.

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Because one thing that made me very uncomfortable with the tenant era is watching his ego just go up like the Hindenburg.

192
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And I think that those in scenes are really just giving him the chance to deflate. defeat slowly.

193
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I think it wasn't so much a script issue as a structural problem with the characters.

194
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So I think Rose is developed to work with the ninth doctor and doesn't work as well with the 10th doctor, and they get by on it because David and Billy have great chemistry, and so they prove very popular, but Rose is a character is problematic, I think, with the 10th doctor, and that aura of smugness that is sometimes commented on is because they're both big, vibrant, bright characters, and David's doctor, I think, needed something else, which they then got right to differing degrees. with Martha and Donna.

195
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Yeah, it's funny.

196
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There's a kind of, there is a version of RTD's era that didn't happen, which you can kind of see them working towards, like 1st with Chris leaving and then with Billy leaving.

197
00:18:05.700 --> 00:18:10.859
There's clearly some sort of plan about there being some kind of comeuppance.

198
00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:20.640
Like that, the smugness in series 2 is like one shoe dropping and you're waiting for something to happen and maybe doomsday pays that off, but not quite.

199
00:18:20.700 --> 00:18:26.039
And, you know, like there's what would have happened had Billy stayed on for series 3.

200
00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:41.759
Like there's the fun thing about TV. is that even though nowadays it's an hauteurs medium, you know, like you have someone who brings a vision to the show, there's still production that happens and kind of makes people...

201
00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:43.259
Yeah, it makes people change their plans.

202
00:18:43.319 --> 00:18:55.140
But I do think there's kind of, you know, like a sort of archeologist could rake through that era and kind of find the evidence for sort of paths not taken as a result of those sort of production issues.

203
00:18:55.740 --> 00:19:02.339
Joe Ford says, what is the magical formula of relatable characters that neither of the showrunners since have managed to capture?

204
00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:04.859
More of a comment than a question.

205
00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:05.400
Yeah.

206
00:19:05.460 --> 00:19:07.079
You controversial?

207
00:19:07.619 --> 00:19:09.839
I just think it's Russell.

208
00:19:09.900 --> 00:19:10.500
Do you know what I mean?

209
00:19:10.619 --> 00:19:18.000
I think that Moffatt isn't interested in creating characters in quite the same way that Russell is.

210
00:19:18.059 --> 00:19:24.660
Russell's creating a soap opera and the soap opera has a coherent world. 10 year olds can learn facts about the world.

211
00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:29.880
All of the RTD era takes place in the same universe.

212
00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:30.960
Love all of that.

213
00:19:31.019 --> 00:19:32.940
Yeah, it's wonderful, isn't it?

214
00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:41.039
And he gives us this old fans things that we can bring to it, but he gives new fans like fun things to know about the world.

215
00:19:41.099 --> 00:19:43.559
There's a coherency to this era.

216
00:19:43.619 --> 00:19:45.480
And in that world.

217
00:19:45.539 --> 00:19:47.700
There's space for characters to breathe.

218
00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:55.319
And you can't, like, there's no way of imagining a journey's end that takes place in the Moffat era because who would be there?

219
00:19:55.500 --> 00:19:58.259
It's having family.

220
00:19:58.319 --> 00:19:59.460
That's right.

221
00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:01.200
We've got Rose's family.

222
00:20:01.259 --> 00:20:03.779
Martha's family, Donna's family.

223
00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:06.119
The Sarah Jane Adventures family.

224
00:20:06.180 --> 00:20:06.779
Yeah.

225
00:20:06.779 --> 00:20:07.259
Right?

226
00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:08.220
The Torchwood family.

227
00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:13.200
He keeps creating all these families that are all interconnected ultimately and are drawn together.

228
00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:17.400
And maybe the word is there's a mum.

229
00:20:17.460 --> 00:20:21.059
Well, it's what Nathan said about Russell's background in soap.

230
00:20:21.119 --> 00:20:22.619
You know, he was reared in soap.

231
00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:25.079
He had his own high-end soap, the grand.

232
00:20:25.140 --> 00:20:28.920
I don't think Moffat, to my knowledge, ever worked on soap.

233
00:20:28.980 --> 00:20:31.140
Coupling's the closest to ever god, isn't it?

234
00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:32.099
Yeah, rom-com.

235
00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:33.779
That's your background is rom-com.

236
00:20:33.900 --> 00:20:36.599
And that's still a very externalised, as you might say, Peter.

237
00:20:36.660 --> 00:20:38.279
It's a very external way of writing.

238
00:20:38.339 --> 00:20:46.859
Whereas I believe RTD is entirely, entirely internal, and his thinking is extremely empathetic.

239
00:20:46.920 --> 00:20:49.140
Think about how you watch a soap.

240
00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:57.059
There are a lot of characters there and you know what their deal is and you know something of their history and it comes up and it affects other things that happen later in the program.

241
00:20:57.119 --> 00:20:59.279
And that's how we watch Doctor Who.

242
00:20:59.339 --> 00:21:01.380
It's how Star Trek people watch Star Trek.

243
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:04.200
It's how Star Wars people watch Star Wars, you know.

244
00:21:04.259 --> 00:21:06.000
But the Moffite is not like that.

245
00:21:06.059 --> 00:21:08.160
And it doesn't aspire to be like that.

246
00:21:08.220 --> 00:21:09.059
It's not a fault.

247
00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:25.380
But you couldn't have had an episode like Love and Monsters or Turn left in the Moffat era because both of those stories go back and revisit things that have happened in the world up until this point.

248
00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:28.500
But Moffatt doesn't create a world like that.

249
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:36.779
He only has the sort of regular characters, really, and river, perhaps, and missy eventually, to play with.

250
00:21:36.839 --> 00:21:39.960
He doesn't create a world full of people that we get to know.

251
00:21:40.019 --> 00:21:45.180
Even in series 10, which is all kind of said in the one place and he has the opportunity to do it.

252
00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:49.980
He doesn't really do it or series 8, set in the school, never creates a real world.

253
00:21:50.039 --> 00:21:51.180
That's right.

254
00:21:51.240 --> 00:21:55.500
He tries to bring in characters, like he brings in Clara's, I think, father and grandmother.

255
00:21:55.559 --> 00:21:57.960
Is it Clara's father in time of the doctor?

256
00:21:58.019 --> 00:22:00.779
And they make no impression at all because that's not what he's interested in.

257
00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:05.160
But also when you look at soap, soaps are all about character and character interaction.

258
00:22:05.220 --> 00:22:06.960
I think family is the nucleus of that.

259
00:22:07.079 --> 00:22:14.339
And so the big changes in soaps are not when there's a dramatic event, or when they have a new character, it's when a new family comes in.

260
00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:15.240
Yeah.

261
00:22:15.779 --> 00:22:17.940
I hadn't really thought of that.

262
00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:21.420
It's like the Kennedy suddenly arriving in Ramsey Street, isn't it?

263
00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:24.180
When the Joneses appear at the beginning of series three.

264
00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:25.259
That's right.

265
00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:30.539
And it changes the entire dynamic of the show because you have all of these new characters and interactions.

266
00:22:30.599 --> 00:22:33.539
It's why they always used to say in EastEnders.

267
00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:40.680
I can't remember who the character was, but the door was always open for this character to come back because they still had all the connections.

268
00:22:40.740 --> 00:22:42.240
They still had family members.

269
00:22:42.299 --> 00:22:43.559
They still had exes.

270
00:22:43.619 --> 00:22:47.640
They still had all of these storylines that they could drop into and pick up straight away.

271
00:22:47.700 --> 00:22:53.759
Whereas what doesn't work is when you bring back a legacy character and they don't have the connections which they had in the old show.

272
00:22:53.819 --> 00:22:56.220
It's like 1st day at school, isn't it?

273
00:22:56.279 --> 00:22:57.900
Everyone's trying to find their feed.

274
00:22:57.960 --> 00:22:58.799
It's very awkward.

275
00:22:58.859 --> 00:23:01.799
Am I saying Mr. Moffatt's writing is awkward?

276
00:23:01.859 --> 00:23:02.519
Well, I don't know.

277
00:23:02.579 --> 00:23:03.539
We're not there yet.

278
00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:04.079
Are we?

279
00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:07.200
I think that he is trying to do something different.

280
00:23:07.259 --> 00:23:11.579
And I think we underestimate how incredibly different his version of Doctor Who is.

281
00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:13.440
How difficult that was and how clever it was.

282
00:23:13.500 --> 00:23:15.900
I love his one-off stories in this era.

283
00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:19.259
I mean, we were all saying 1st time around. these are the best.

284
00:23:19.500 --> 00:23:20.160
Do you remember this?

285
00:23:20.220 --> 00:23:24.660
These are the best of RTD's era. and they were all Mr. Moffatt stories.

286
00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:27.779
I don't think they're the best of RTDs here.

287
00:23:27.900 --> 00:23:35.460
But I do think they are extremely good, and I certainly think I'm not willing to fight very hard against the contention that they're the best of the era.

288
00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:36.299
They are extremely good.

289
00:23:36.359 --> 00:23:38.819
Well, what's Russell's best story then?

290
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:39.599
Todd?

291
00:23:39.660 --> 00:23:44.519
Nathan, Peter, what do you feel were his best if we're putting them up against Moffat?

292
00:23:44.579 --> 00:23:45.240
Oh, yeah.

293
00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:48.119
We're talking about internalised writing.

294
00:23:48.180 --> 00:23:49.259
Goodness.

295
00:23:49.259 --> 00:23:53.640
You know, the Dalek 2 parter at the end of series one.

296
00:23:53.700 --> 00:23:56.460
Oh, love and to death. amazing.

297
00:23:56.519 --> 00:23:57.720
The one with all those game shows.

298
00:23:57.779 --> 00:23:59.099
I mean, that's extraordinary.

299
00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:00.660
It turns on a dime.

300
00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:08.579
It's very Russell with all those game shows and that becomes a big old, mostly traditional series finale and Russell can do them both with consummate ease.

301
00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:10.799
And it is this sort of look at us.

302
00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:11.819
This is us.

303
00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:16.140
We now include all of the rest of television.

304
00:24:16.259 --> 00:24:17.220
We own TV.

305
00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:22.200
Just as Billy did in episode one back in 63 when he pointed at the monitor.

306
00:24:22.259 --> 00:24:23.640
Yeah, we thus up there.

307
00:24:23.700 --> 00:24:24.599
It's us Yeah.

308
00:24:24.660 --> 00:24:26.640
Told what you said as well.

309
00:24:26.700 --> 00:24:28.140
Turn left and midnight.

310
00:24:28.200 --> 00:24:39.779
I think they're just such a showcase for Russell because one is written with plenty of time to spare and thought about sort of how the series is structured around it and how it's going to fit in.

311
00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:45.539
One, midnight is written at the very last minute as a replacement and both of them are phenomenal.

312
00:24:45.599 --> 00:24:49.380
So whatever pressures are on Russell, he always delivers something.

313
00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:59.940
Green fingered librarian, Simon Hart, asks this question.

314
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:03.660
What do you think of the RTD season formula?

315
00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:07.259
Is it tiresome or does it work well?

316
00:25:07.740 --> 00:25:10.200
I think it works wonderfully well.

317
00:25:10.259 --> 00:25:12.900
I love having the past, present, future.

318
00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:15.960
You've got an early 2 parter, a late 2 parter.

319
00:25:16.019 --> 00:25:24.059
There's a structure there for 5 seasons because, of course, Stephen also takes that through, and it harks back to what we're used to as classic series fan.

320
00:25:24.119 --> 00:25:36.059
You look at the perch we era with, you know, 24 partters and and 36 parters, and then most of Tom Baker's era, you know, lots of four-partters and a 6 parter at the end.

321
00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:37.740
And it's the rhythm of it.

322
00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:48.420
You know, when you're planning season arcs and putting things in, he'll he'll put in things like, you know, Mr. Saxon at certain points and it just flows so well.

323
00:25:48.539 --> 00:25:58.920
What he wants to do with the show based on that consistency and structure and as much as we'd love to have like different things all the time and talk about, oh, let's change it up.

324
00:25:58.920 --> 00:26:06.660
I think having that underlying it really sets up the show as something that you can just drop in and drop out off.

325
00:26:06.900 --> 00:26:10.559
I think it's super, super clever.

326
00:26:10.680 --> 00:26:11.940
And the problem space is massive.

327
00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:22.140
The big problem with Doctor Who is that because it can be anywhere, like literally anywhere, anything, it risks being formless or not about anything, right?

328
00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:35.700
And so this structure ensures that we come back to earth, like, you know, a couple of times a season, it ensures that we have a range of tones, you know, that early two parter is always like the return of a big Toyantic monster or something like that.

329
00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:48.059
Like it's light, and it's populist, and then we have some dark things towards the end and sort of a cheap one in episode 11 and, you know, like a big finale with Daleks or Sidemen or the master.

330
00:26:48.180 --> 00:26:50.519
It is deeply, intuitively clever.

331
00:26:50.579 --> 00:26:55.619
I wonder how much he's actually put thought into this because it goes back to what we've talked about on the podcast before.

332
00:26:55.680 --> 00:27:11.819
The mammalian need for structure and repetition, which again, if what is that but a family, a cohesive central unit in which to that familiarity that makes us loyal to this body of work.

333
00:27:12.059 --> 00:27:14.819
And I think there's variety built into it as well.

334
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:17.160
Like there is variety build into it.

335
00:27:17.220 --> 00:27:21.839
So even though episodes foreign 5 are the same sort of thing each year.

336
00:27:21.900 --> 00:27:24.480
They're still all vastly different from them.

337
00:27:24.539 --> 00:27:25.859
You've always got a neris, won't you?

338
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:27.720
Yeah, that's right.

339
00:27:27.779 --> 00:27:30.180
Also, I think it's comforting for kids.

340
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:40.980
Kids internalise that kind of thing where they sort of know that there's a big season finale coming up or isn't it about time for a two-parter and it helps you with kind of accessibility with the series.

341
00:27:41.099 --> 00:28:00.539
And when I think Stephen rightly breaks the formula for series 6, it may have a little bit to do with the slightly cooler reaction to that season, because suddenly it's not the formula that, you know, suddenly we're opening with a 2 parter, and there's a break in the middle and you get a 2nd opener, and it just, it slightly puts you at odds.

342
00:28:00.599 --> 00:28:06.839
I certainly think that he made the right decision to do what he does in the series 5 and follow it.

343
00:28:06.900 --> 00:28:08.940
And he subverts it all the way through.

344
00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:14.039
He's he follows the basic structure, but does massively different things with it.

345
00:28:14.099 --> 00:28:18.660
I mean, compare the early 2 parter in series five.

346
00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:26.880
It's much darker and scarier than the corresponding early two-parters in Russell's seasons.

347
00:28:27.180 --> 00:28:32.759
He does an opener, but it's nowhere near as light.

348
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:33.599
Fluffy.

349
00:28:33.660 --> 00:28:38.880
Yeah, it's not fluffy or light. funny in places, but it's actually, you know, properly serious.

350
00:28:39.420 --> 00:28:49.140
And his finale, while it has the Daleks in it, is very, very strange and very, very unlike any of the previous finales.

351
00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:50.460
But he's right to follow it.

352
00:28:50.519 --> 00:28:58.019
And I think that Moffat does have a problem trying to structure the seasons and you can see him lurch from idea to idea throughout his run.

353
00:28:58.440 --> 00:29:06.960
I mean, he almost in his last season, he kind of almost sort of reverts to the traditional RTD structure.

354
00:29:07.019 --> 00:29:39.599
I also like the fact that, although we've got all these different themes running through as well as part of this structure, like, you know, you hear about Bad Wolf, and then you've got like Torchwood and Mr. Saxon, and you are not alone, they don't overwhelm the individual stories throughout the season, so you can drop in and drop out as a casual viewer throughout all of those 4 series, even towards the end with, you know, the bees and the Dr. Donna. their little touches, their words that are said, but we're not locked into. there's a crack in the wall.

355
00:29:39.660 --> 00:29:40.980
Do you know what I mean?

356
00:29:41.099 --> 00:29:42.720
not a physical thing.

357
00:29:42.779 --> 00:29:45.839
It's just a word that is you. used.

358
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:54.240
And as somebody watching you is obviously pick up when that is said, but it only really comes into play into the finales, if at all.

359
00:29:54.299 --> 00:29:59.640
I mean, you look at torchwood and how that's seeded, but really, it's a setting at the end of that season.

360
00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:07.980
And even the cybermen in that 2nd series, like it's not like, well, the cybermen are coming back, you know, they just happen to be there as the villains at the end.

361
00:30:08.039 --> 00:30:09.839
We're not overwhelmed by these things.

362
00:30:09.900 --> 00:30:20.220
Like people talk about the fact that, I mean, you look at Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and you look at other shows similar that have these season-long villains, really...

363
00:30:20.220 --> 00:30:21.240
Is that really in play?

364
00:30:21.299 --> 00:30:23.160
I don't, it's not really at all.

365
00:30:23.220 --> 00:30:32.940
You know, they, yeah, the Daleks are back at the end of season one and there's links and as I just said, the cybermen, even the master, then at the end. and Daros, but they're not overwhelming the rest of it.

366
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:35.819
And he and you've talked about this.

367
00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:50.519
He reimagines those classic iconic villains and monsters for a new audience and he takes all that we love and brings out new and interesting aspects.

368
00:30:50.579 --> 00:30:51.779
I mean, especially the master.

369
00:30:51.839 --> 00:30:55.200
Like the way he develops that, but still nods back to the past.

370
00:30:55.259 --> 00:30:58.079
And I was not at the time that happy.

371
00:30:58.140 --> 00:30:59.339
Oh, it's too over the top.

372
00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:00.240
It's to whatever.

373
00:31:00.299 --> 00:31:04.440
But now looking back on it, I can see what he's doing and I appreciate it so much more.

374
00:31:04.500 --> 00:31:07.859
Russell always has one eye on the Saturday night audience.

375
00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:24.240
He knows that the show has to be populist and easily accessible, and yet he knows that it's got a broad fan base, and so really he's writing for himself because he is a massive fan, and he is also a very populist writer who knows how to deliver drama for a wide audience.

376
00:31:24.299 --> 00:31:37.799
And I think we were very lucky to get him and combine that because the best of his era is that you can have quite a contained self-referential episode, followed by an enormous crowd pleaser, but both of them are accessible to the general audience.

377
00:31:38.700 --> 00:31:42.000
Okay, so Snorg, marry, avoid.

378
00:31:42.059 --> 00:31:46.559
Pete Tyler, Jeffrey Noble, Clive Jones.

379
00:31:46.619 --> 00:31:50.579
Oh, to be honest, we won't marry any of them.

380
00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:52.980
You wouldn't want to marry any of them?

381
00:31:53.039 --> 00:31:53.339
No.

382
00:31:53.400 --> 00:31:56.579
Well, most of them don't have much longevity in them, do they?

383
00:31:57.480 --> 00:32:00.299
You're not on for the long haul, are you?

384
00:32:00.420 --> 00:32:04.380
I might give in to my latent Toronto Ophelia and snog all of them.

385
00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:04.920
Oh, yeah.

386
00:32:05.460 --> 00:32:07.680
How latent is that, Peter?

387
00:32:07.740 --> 00:32:09.839
Pretty late.

388
00:32:10.380 --> 00:32:12.000
Nathan?

389
00:32:12.059 --> 00:32:19.200
Well, there's probably only enough time for a snog with Jeffrey Noble, to be honest.

390
00:32:19.500 --> 00:32:23.759
And I might get a fiver off him if you're lucky.

391
00:32:23.819 --> 00:32:25.259
At least one quid.

392
00:32:25.740 --> 00:32:27.660
We're going with this.

393
00:32:27.720 --> 00:32:30.539
I like to spend the evening with him just to get to know him.

394
00:32:30.660 --> 00:32:31.140
Yeah.

395
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:33.480
Let the doctor earn that fiver.

396
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:42.480
I actually have a bit of a soft spot for the actor who plays Clive, so I'm going to marry him.

397
00:32:42.539 --> 00:32:46.019
That would be great because you get Matrona Carney thrown in as well.

398
00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:46.680
That's right.

399
00:32:46.740 --> 00:32:47.160
That's right.

400
00:32:47.220 --> 00:32:48.420
He knows all about the rock.

401
00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:55.140
You know, like I'd be able to get my nails done with Annalise, you know, and have your brain transplanted into everybody.

402
00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:58.440
I still haven't forgiven him for mine walk.

403
00:32:58.500 --> 00:32:59.279
I'm avoiding him.

404
00:33:00.660 --> 00:33:02.279
And I shall marry Pete for the money.

405
00:33:04.259 --> 00:33:05.460
Trust me on this.

406
00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:07.380
No, actually, he's a very nice person too.

407
00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:10.740
So, um, Snog Mary avoid.

408
00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:11.640
Oh this is another one.

409
00:33:11.700 --> 00:33:14.220
Trisha Delaney, Annalise or Neris.

410
00:33:14.279 --> 00:33:17.579
Well, Trisha's got a bit of fat though, has he?

411
00:33:18.119 --> 00:33:20.039
smells much longer.

412
00:33:21.119 --> 00:33:23.220
No, well, Russell is.

413
00:33:23.279 --> 00:33:24.720
That's another thing.

414
00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:25.440
It really does actually.

415
00:33:25.500 --> 00:33:29.579
There's heaps of, like, and clearly he's a large man.

416
00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:31.740
Oh, he's very sensitive about his.

417
00:33:31.799 --> 00:33:32.220
Yeah, yeah.

418
00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:40.259
It's a tendency to run to fat and also just being a gay man as well and all of the weird body image stuff that we end up with.

419
00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:42.359
So he does quite a lot of fat shaming.

420
00:33:42.420 --> 00:33:52.680
And the, uh, the, my favourite one is the Slovene, because they actually just have fat man's bellies, like they look like, you know, fossil.

421
00:33:54.359 --> 00:33:59.400
Look like Phil Collinson after a weekend on the booze, but he hasn't got to the gym yet.

422
00:33:59.460 --> 00:34:01.980
Oh, sorry, Phil.

423
00:34:02.039 --> 00:34:03.900
Annalise and Neris.

424
00:34:03.960 --> 00:34:06.299
He really does write to archetypes, doesn't he?

425
00:34:06.359 --> 00:34:07.500
I writes them so well.

426
00:34:07.619 --> 00:34:09.059
They're wonderful, aren't they?

427
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:16.019
I just narris is so funny and it's partly just because Catherine Tate is the one saying her name.

428
00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:17.880
So good.

429
00:34:17.940 --> 00:34:19.739
Analise is amazing.

430
00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:23.280
You're totally snorganalise, but you'd never marry her because she'd have your money in no time.

431
00:34:23.340 --> 00:34:24.300
Oh, yeah, yeah.

432
00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:25.320
Oh, she's terrific.

433
00:34:27.300 --> 00:34:29.880
Such a shame she never came back.

434
00:34:29.940 --> 00:34:32.340
I would have loved it. shame, isn't it?

435
00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:34.139
Been great to see her in that year of hell.

436
00:34:34.199 --> 00:34:37.800
You know, maybe she became a resistance leader or something.

437
00:34:37.860 --> 00:34:42.900
Oh, I just wanted to see her and Francine with the missiles going off all around them.

438
00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:51.960
I would have loved to have seen her and Neres in serving made outfits, giving them mastery's drinks and not looking really happy about it. so good.

439
00:34:52.019 --> 00:34:53.460
Come on, RTD.

440
00:34:53.519 --> 00:34:53.940
Yeah.

441
00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:57.119
Oh, right, so we're avoiding Trisha Delaney.

442
00:34:57.179 --> 00:35:00.599
We're snogging and Elise, but we're going to marry now.

443
00:35:00.659 --> 00:35:01.440
We're marrying Maris.

444
00:35:01.559 --> 00:35:03.119
No, Rich.

445
00:35:03.780 --> 00:35:06.239
Because you don't only get nerished.

446
00:35:06.300 --> 00:35:07.860
You get friends with Nereris.

447
00:35:23.639 --> 00:35:28.440
Okay, so there's some of the guest stars, or non guest stars, as the case may be.

448
00:35:28.500 --> 00:35:31.920
Who's your favourite one off guest star during the RTD era?

449
00:35:31.980 --> 00:35:34.980
Is there something that pops into your mind?

450
00:35:35.099 --> 00:35:36.119
I'd say River song.

451
00:35:36.179 --> 00:35:37.380
Wow.

452
00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:51.239
If she had only been a one and I'm quite serious about this, if she had only been a one off guest star, there's I love that it gives fans and casual viewers, I would hope as well, a way in to the writing.

453
00:35:51.300 --> 00:35:54.599
I think it's a really nice way of getting a young person.

454
00:35:54.659 --> 00:36:03.179
I'm thinking of all of us at around the age that Russell was and Capaldi and all of these people were starting to write fan, Tenant was writing it as well, wasn't he?

455
00:36:03.239 --> 00:36:09.300
That's a lovely inn for a child and a little girl to be sitting there because I love that it's a female character.

456
00:36:09.300 --> 00:36:15.599
And yeah, we know it's, we later see how this paradigm just goes on and on and on.

457
00:36:15.659 --> 00:36:21.179
And I mean, the way that I keep talking about the Moffat era, and I wonder why I'm doing that, probably because it's so comfortable.

458
00:36:21.239 --> 00:36:31.739
The RTD one just feels so familiar and so easy that it's um, I'm finding it hard to find, I won't say flaws, but critiquing it.

459
00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:35.579
It's a very comfortable sofa to be sitting in.

460
00:36:35.579 --> 00:36:37.380
RDD.

461
00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:38.760
That's not fat shaming.

462
00:36:38.820 --> 00:36:40.440
That's just saying it's comfy.

463
00:36:40.500 --> 00:36:43.440
But yeah, it's an inn.

464
00:36:43.500 --> 00:36:55.800
It gives us an opportunity to do, to do the thinking, to work in with the narrative, and I think it's always a shame with long, long shows that's kind of taken away, and, you know, I don't like the thinking done for me.

465
00:36:55.860 --> 00:36:58.800
I like the old style of having to do the work.

466
00:36:58.860 --> 00:37:02.639
Alex Kingston is spectacularly good that one.

467
00:37:02.699 --> 00:37:03.179
Yeah.

468
00:37:03.239 --> 00:37:04.079
Yeah, really great.

469
00:37:04.139 --> 00:37:09.900
Miss Evangelistic, because of that story is actually probably one of my favourites as well for the questions that she poses.

470
00:37:09.960 --> 00:37:12.539
But anyway, I can't bring a face to mind.

471
00:37:12.599 --> 00:37:13.320
Stop.

472
00:37:14.519 --> 00:37:22.980
I think if I was given another half hour, I'd probably think of a dozen, but the person who comes to mind is Ida Scott, played by Claire Ashbrook.

473
00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:25.320
Yeah, we keep crying for the interesting women, don't we?

474
00:37:25.380 --> 00:37:26.760
She's brilliant.

475
00:37:26.820 --> 00:37:27.539
She's lovely.

476
00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:32.340
Yeah, she's really nice and she works so well going back to what we were saying earlier with David Tennant.

477
00:37:32.400 --> 00:37:39.420
That moment in the caves with the snow and when she's down there outside his massive pit and she's just standing there with David.

478
00:37:39.480 --> 00:37:46.019
David's so good when again, when he's got someone really extraordinary to work against, then we see his subtlety.

479
00:37:46.079 --> 00:37:46.920
That's right.

480
00:37:46.980 --> 00:37:52.679
And she um, she is a big part of that two-part story, which I adore that story.

481
00:37:52.739 --> 00:37:54.840
She's at sort of heart and soul.

482
00:37:54.900 --> 00:38:07.800
And even in amongst all of the action going on, which kind of, you know, killer Oud and the devil coming back and everything, the most impressive parts are the 2 handers with her and David, they just talk about the meaning of life and faith.

483
00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:12.539
And, you know, it's a rare character that can come in and make you want more of them.

484
00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:16.619
There were plans to bring her back, which never came tuition, and I think were worse off for that.

485
00:38:16.679 --> 00:38:20.579
She's Bernard Cribben's in a Tintin space suit, isn't it?

486
00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:22.800
Love those orange spacesuits.

487
00:38:22.860 --> 00:38:23.760
Nathan.

488
00:38:23.820 --> 00:38:27.659
I'm going to say Leslie Sharp in midnight.

489
00:38:27.719 --> 00:38:28.860
Oh, phenomenal.

490
00:38:28.860 --> 00:38:49.739
Yeah, and again, you know, we don't get too much of her before she's taken over. but she is brittle and isolated, but you can see her warming to the doctor, and it is that trick that Russell does, which is just sketching a character very, very quickly.

491
00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:54.119
And so she does become a character in a very, very short amount of time.

492
00:38:54.179 --> 00:39:03.539
And then just the technical virtuosity of what she and David Tennant do in that episode, the big special effect in that episode is the acting.

493
00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:06.300
And she is amazing.

494
00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:09.059
She is so good as the villain in that.

495
00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:12.360
So terrifying, just unbelievably great.

496
00:39:12.599 --> 00:39:15.719
There's a special, what's the word?

497
00:39:15.780 --> 00:39:16.679
Piquancy.

498
00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:21.780
When, whenever Russell casts someone who's been a major part of one of his previous series.

499
00:39:21.840 --> 00:39:33.960
So when you get Jessica Hines coming in to play, essentially, the doctor's wife for those 2 partters, it's big casting and there's a resonance there because of that connection with Russell.

500
00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:40.860
And I think Leslie Sharp is the same because she was one of the leads in the 2nd coming.

501
00:39:40.920 --> 00:39:41.820
Yeah she's Judith.

502
00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:46.440
Yeah, up against Christopher Eccleston's 2nd coming of Jesus.

503
00:39:46.500 --> 00:39:49.619
And it's an incredible role.

504
00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:51.659
And if you haven't seen it.

505
00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:55.980
If you haven't seen it, you should stop listening to this podcast immediately and go and watch it.

506
00:39:56.039 --> 00:39:59.699
It's like aliens of London in a way.

507
00:39:59.820 --> 00:40:13.800
But it's about the 2nd coming of Christ, and it's Christopher Eccleston, and it has amazing things to say about religion and faith, and just the most surprising conclusion, and Leslie Sharp is absolutely at the heart of it.

508
00:40:13.860 --> 00:40:14.579
She's wonderful.

509
00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:29.039
This is why he could write it so quickly, midnight, because every good writer, director relies on his ensemble cast, knowing what they'll be able to deliver in such with such brevity, if you like, of character development.

510
00:40:29.099 --> 00:40:34.500
He just trusts that they'll fill in and fulminate in the parts.

511
00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:36.960
This is like watching really good rep.

512
00:40:37.019 --> 00:40:38.820
Maybe that's what TV is now.

513
00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:42.360
Those old touring theatre companies that Liz Sladen came from.

514
00:40:42.420 --> 00:40:44.340
And I think Lou Jameson did as well, didn't she?

515
00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:47.820
that they've different parts every week and performing.

516
00:40:47.940 --> 00:40:48.300
He knew.

517
00:40:48.360 --> 00:40:51.000
Yeah, that's why that's maybe that's why midnight works so well.

518
00:40:51.059 --> 00:40:57.659
And when Russell Russell works really, really well when he's got no time and just knows he has to rely on his inner talent and his performers.

519
00:40:57.719 --> 00:40:59.579
It is a theatre piece, isn't it?

520
00:40:59.639 --> 00:41:03.360
I mean, if you're a very skilled group of actors, you could performer.

521
00:41:03.420 --> 00:41:06.719
You could do it on an empty set, doesn't need very much.

522
00:41:06.780 --> 00:41:11.099
And the series name which was eluding me in addition to the 2nd coming is Bob and Rose.

523
00:41:11.159 --> 00:41:12.119
Oh, yeah.

524
00:41:12.119 --> 00:41:14.280
Leslie was one of the leads in that.

525
00:41:14.340 --> 00:41:21.480
And I don't know, just when this performer that Russell trusts, he gives them a big important role and they deliver every time.

526
00:41:21.719 --> 00:41:27.239
I guess I'm going to go with Probably Madame de Pompadour.

527
00:41:27.420 --> 00:41:39.659
Because I really, I think in that 40 minutes or whatever, it's for me probably the 1st time that somebody makes such an impact totally as a one-off character.

528
00:41:39.719 --> 00:41:42.000
It's almost like Rose takes a backseat in that episode.

529
00:41:42.059 --> 00:41:42.840
Yeah, 0 yeah.

530
00:41:42.900 --> 00:41:43.320
Yeah.

531
00:41:43.380 --> 00:41:45.960
The other one I consider is Stanley Sparrow.

532
00:41:46.019 --> 00:41:49.679
Notice I've chosen Stephen Moffatt episodes.

533
00:41:50.280 --> 00:41:55.739
And you've just mentioned Jessica Hine from The Scarecrow 2 parter.

534
00:41:55.920 --> 00:42:01.619
We're all choosing these really strong women who play off the doctor.

535
00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:06.239
And don't forget your favourite as well from Fear Her, the old woman in the street.

536
00:42:06.300 --> 00:42:07.559
They've taken the children.

537
00:42:07.619 --> 00:42:08.760
Remember that?

538
00:42:08.760 --> 00:42:09.900
She's one of your favourites.

539
00:42:09.960 --> 00:42:10.800
Oh yes.

540
00:42:10.860 --> 00:42:12.780
Much like the doctor's daughter as well.

541
00:42:14.219 --> 00:42:17.579
Okay, so monsters.

542
00:42:17.639 --> 00:42:19.260
I want to talk about this for a moment.

543
00:42:19.320 --> 00:42:27.059
I mentioned earlier, we're talking a bit about Russell reimagining old classic series, monsters and villains.

544
00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:33.000
What's your favourite or the most successful you think of all the ones that he's brought back, Macra?

545
00:42:33.059 --> 00:42:34.139
Sylvia.

546
00:42:34.260 --> 00:42:35.880
Sylvia.

547
00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:39.300
Sylvia, definitely, yeah.

548
00:42:39.360 --> 00:42:41.099
I'm going to say the cyberman.

549
00:42:41.159 --> 00:42:51.300
Because the cybermen are brought back in the 60s with this weird sort of kit peddler fear that, you know, your pacemaker would turn you into an unfeeling robot.

550
00:42:51.360 --> 00:43:08.579
So they don't have really anything that they're about in the 60s, and it's very soon, they become, you know, absence of the Daleks, it's kind of like, we'll have the side men in this because, you know, Terry's gone off to LA.

551
00:43:08.639 --> 00:43:12.059
And then in the 80s, they're just sort of big shouty robots.

552
00:43:12.119 --> 00:43:17.519
I think they're actually the most in a way if you want to talk about what the 60s to the 80s is about.

553
00:43:17.579 --> 00:43:26.579
They're the Nietzsque paradigm, they're the Uber Mensch, and a big, big warning because they're the bland, they're the face of neoliberalists.

554
00:43:26.639 --> 00:43:31.619
They are thatch of Reagan, Kissinger, Nixon, economics.

555
00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:36.960
Well, we'll get to that when we talk about the Slovene later because I think they're absolutely the face.

556
00:43:37.199 --> 00:43:38.760
You're right.

557
00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:43.739
They're the Tories we actually would like to have lunch with, but...

558
00:43:43.739 --> 00:43:48.300
And that's even unfair on the Tories because the Tories were changed by all of this as well.

559
00:43:48.420 --> 00:43:53.099
I think they actually end up being very interesting, but you're right, because they're only a cypher.

560
00:43:53.159 --> 00:43:53.880
See what I did there?

561
00:43:53.940 --> 00:43:55.260
They're only they're cypher men.

562
00:43:55.320 --> 00:43:58.139
So he tries to reinvent them.

563
00:43:58.199 --> 00:44:19.619
So he replaces, you know, upside down earth with Malaysia, with a parallel universe, and he gives them something, and it is a sort of slightly boomer and slightly dated conception, but the idea that we're turning into cybermen by participating in the same media, living so much of our lives online.

564
00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:22.559
And so that gives them something to be about.

565
00:44:22.619 --> 00:44:33.840
And then I think the other reinvention, the other aspect of the reinvention is where the entire population of London marches into Battersea Power Station to be sawn up and turn into Cyberman.

566
00:44:33.900 --> 00:44:42.960
Like I just think putting the cybermen in London so that as you go past that building on the train, you remember that that's where cybermen come from.

567
00:44:43.019 --> 00:44:50.579
So I think the cybermen are sort of a bit crummy and classic who, and I think he does a very, very good job of reinventing them and making them work.

568
00:44:50.579 --> 00:44:55.320
And also Battersea Power Station is now being turned into a high-end soulless flat.

569
00:44:55.380 --> 00:44:56.460
So I mean, nothing changes.

570
00:44:56.579 --> 00:45:01.260
Oh, but it's okay because when we get to the Dalek invasion of Earth, look at this.

571
00:45:01.860 --> 00:45:04.260
I'm going to go with the autons.

572
00:45:04.320 --> 00:45:07.800
Oh, because they're such a perennially good idea.

573
00:45:07.800 --> 00:45:12.780
And we sort of had them twice in the early 70s and they were excellent both times.

574
00:45:12.840 --> 00:45:23.460
Bob Holmes was writing them, and it just seemed after the fact, such a natural idea to use them to bring the series back because that image loomed large in the public consciousness.

575
00:45:23.699 --> 00:45:26.579
And they're just such a great idea.

576
00:45:26.639 --> 00:45:29.159
It's incredible that we haven't revisited them since.

577
00:45:29.219 --> 00:45:34.079
I know we had a little bit of them in kind of the Pandoric are open, so that's not an auton story.

578
00:45:34.139 --> 00:45:39.179
What we really need now is a big two-part auton story playing to their strengths.

579
00:45:39.239 --> 00:45:42.780
It would be like Spearhead from Space all over again. written by Chris Chipner.

580
00:45:42.840 --> 00:45:43.860
Well, you know what?

581
00:45:43.920 --> 00:45:49.679
I think that might play to his strengths because he's a bit of a 70s, babe, and he has strong memories of that.

582
00:45:49.739 --> 00:45:53.400
And so I think if he's going to succeed, maybe that would be the vehicle to do it.

583
00:45:53.460 --> 00:45:57.239
And thinking back to his Iurian story, he could just go back and read the novel.

584
00:45:57.420 --> 00:45:59.099
That's true.

585
00:45:59.159 --> 00:46:02.400
You could do worse than a two-part based on the novel of spearhead from space.

586
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:16.860
You know, one of the very 1st kind of leaks from the production that I ever saw back in 2005 or 2004 was that there would be autons in bridal dresses and it could always have happened.

587
00:46:16.920 --> 00:46:26.579
You know, it could always have happened in Spearhead from space, but just the fact that it happens in rows, you know, having Jackie attacked by autumns in bridal dresses is so great.

588
00:46:26.639 --> 00:46:28.199
So brilliant.

589
00:46:28.260 --> 00:46:31.800
And it's a shame because it's not, it doesn't come off all that well.

590
00:46:32.639 --> 00:46:35.579
It's not staged particularly well, but the potency of the idea.

591
00:46:35.639 --> 00:46:36.179
It's amazing.

592
00:46:36.239 --> 00:46:38.400
I think I'll go with the Daleks.

593
00:46:38.639 --> 00:46:42.000
I just that bringing back that sound.

594
00:46:42.119 --> 00:46:43.920
I can already hear it now.

595
00:46:44.039 --> 00:46:45.119
Womp, warm.

596
00:46:45.179 --> 00:46:47.159
Thank you, Chomp.

597
00:46:47.219 --> 00:46:56.820
But also just the way in which they can levitate, they can not be shot, blown up by, you know, a few shots.

598
00:46:56.880 --> 00:46:59.099
I'm thinking back to series one now.

599
00:46:59.159 --> 00:47:04.079
I just think that them in series one was just all that they needed to be.

600
00:47:04.139 --> 00:47:09.599
In their started late career, share Mad Max bronze leather look.

601
00:47:10.199 --> 00:47:10.980
Yes.

602
00:47:11.039 --> 00:47:12.960
It's just like one of it.

603
00:47:13.019 --> 00:47:16.199
You can just see the fireworks going off on one of her stage presentations, can't you?

604
00:47:16.260 --> 00:47:17.579
They're a bit share like, aren't they?

605
00:47:17.639 --> 00:47:18.360
How long have they been around?

606
00:47:18.480 --> 00:47:20.699
A long, long.

607
00:47:20.760 --> 00:47:24.719
Just one touch by Billy Piper turns them into a powerful enemy.

608
00:47:24.780 --> 00:47:28.079
I'm not saying we'd been there with Chris Evans, but...

609
00:47:28.079 --> 00:47:32.940
Well, it's time for a house party and it's the monsters house party.

610
00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:34.380
So who are you going to invite?

611
00:47:34.619 --> 00:47:37.500
The jujune or the Centaurants?

612
00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:38.639
What's different?

613
00:47:38.699 --> 00:47:39.840
Yeah.

614
00:47:39.960 --> 00:47:41.820
One's hornier.

615
00:47:42.539 --> 00:47:46.019
I think I like the Jadoon more than the Santarans.

616
00:47:46.079 --> 00:47:49.619
I'm, uh, I think I think the Santarians have been spoiled for me.

617
00:47:49.679 --> 00:47:56.820
Although Chris Ryan, you know, he's pretty cool, but the Jadoon, a lot of leather, you know, I'm sure that we'd find something to do.

618
00:47:56.880 --> 00:48:01.800
They'd make good door bitches because they've got those things where they can mark your hand once you entered.

619
00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:04.920
The weeping angels or the Crillitains?

620
00:48:05.039 --> 00:48:11.280
Well, they get rid of, if you live in an old house, the acryletines would certainly get rid of all your unwanted pets, wouldn't they?

621
00:48:14.340 --> 00:48:15.239
Weeping angels?

622
00:48:15.420 --> 00:48:17.099
I don't know.

623
00:48:17.159 --> 00:48:19.559
I love the idea of hide and seek.

624
00:48:19.619 --> 00:48:21.059
Now that's a house party.

625
00:48:21.179 --> 00:48:23.460
The oud or the adipose?

626
00:48:23.519 --> 00:48:27.719
Well, I think that some hybrid, the Udipose, the Udipose.

627
00:48:27.780 --> 00:48:32.760
The Ud could just bring you food, and then you would eventually produce your own adipose, I would think.

628
00:48:32.820 --> 00:48:38.280
But would they bring you food or would they would their eyes turn red and they would start a war against God?

629
00:48:38.340 --> 00:48:40.559
Well, only if you deserved it though.

630
00:48:41.159 --> 00:48:43.980
The lady Cassandra or the face of Beau?

631
00:48:44.099 --> 00:48:46.500
I love the lady cassette.

632
00:48:46.559 --> 00:48:48.360
No, we all know where we're going with this, don't we?

633
00:48:48.780 --> 00:48:51.059
Do you think it's the same character?

634
00:48:51.119 --> 00:48:55.380
Do you think that eventually she got a face stretch so much that it fitted over the bow frame?

635
00:48:56.099 --> 00:48:59.760
That means that Jack is actually Cassandra.

636
00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:04.559
Isn't like, she's kind of the 1st villain, isn't she really?

637
00:49:04.619 --> 00:49:06.659
And she's so great.

638
00:49:06.719 --> 00:49:09.179
She's so funny and wonderful.

639
00:49:09.420 --> 00:49:13.800
I just remember kids in class. you know, like, because this was so huge.

640
00:49:13.860 --> 00:49:17.579
Yeah, yeah, shedding out moisturise me and stuff as a joke.

641
00:49:17.639 --> 00:49:19.920
I mean, just just so brilliant.

642
00:49:19.980 --> 00:49:25.320
Also, if you're going to have a house party, you want someone who's going to sort of stand there and deliver waspish comments that you can laugh at.

643
00:49:25.380 --> 00:49:27.840
Yeah, I'll give something for the young people to bounce off.

644
00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:30.420
Is that the face of both?

645
00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:32.579
What if they thought, isn't it?

646
00:49:32.639 --> 00:49:45.659
Do you want a weekend with a Dalai Lama sitting on your haunches, you know, exchanging meaningful platitudes, or you just want a really, there's a lot of really bitchy anecdotes and martinis.

647
00:49:45.719 --> 00:49:46.980
I don't think there's a competition.

648
00:49:47.880 --> 00:49:50.699
The Guelf or the Vashtanarata?

649
00:49:51.840 --> 00:49:55.739
Vashinarada would certainly help you clean up the leftovers.

650
00:49:55.800 --> 00:49:57.840
And then less whiffy.

651
00:49:57.900 --> 00:49:59.460
That's true.

652
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:03.119
The absorbeloff or the Jaggerfess.

653
00:50:06.719 --> 00:50:09.659
These words, I can't get over.

654
00:50:09.659 --> 00:50:10.860
So good.

655
00:50:10.920 --> 00:50:12.239
You'd have the absorber off.

656
00:50:12.300 --> 00:50:15.000
You could feed unwanted guests to it and you'd go, taste like chicken.

657
00:50:16.260 --> 00:50:21.599
But again, another whiffy monster, you know, like another farty Russell monster.

658
00:50:21.659 --> 00:50:24.300
The para vials or the beast?

659
00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:27.900
Richard.

660
00:50:27.960 --> 00:50:29.880
Well, they're both so hot.

661
00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:33.360
I'd go with the pyra vials.

662
00:50:33.420 --> 00:50:35.340
They're better conversationalists.

663
00:50:35.400 --> 00:50:36.119
Exactly.

664
00:50:36.179 --> 00:50:38.219
And told your friend, Madame Pyrevile.

665
00:50:38.280 --> 00:50:40.079
Yes, my friend, thank you, Peter.

666
00:50:40.139 --> 00:50:44.280
And uh, the wire or the Slavene.

667
00:50:44.340 --> 00:50:45.960
Oh, that's a hard one.

668
00:50:46.019 --> 00:50:48.119
Isn't the wire great?

669
00:50:48.179 --> 00:50:50.820
We should have mentioned her in our search.

670
00:50:50.880 --> 00:50:53.099
Most valuable player. thing.

671
00:50:53.159 --> 00:50:53.699
She's wonderful.

672
00:50:53.760 --> 00:50:59.699
And she's played by a good enough actress that she can deliver evil cackling and it's really quite good.

673
00:50:59.760 --> 00:51:03.480
I think there's just Maureen Lippman as, you know, just sitting there being herself.

674
00:51:03.539 --> 00:51:04.619
I like it.

675
00:51:04.739 --> 00:51:10.139
James and I did a big rewatch of agony after we did our Idiot's Lantern episode.

676
00:51:10.199 --> 00:51:12.360
And I just loved her as a kid.

677
00:51:12.420 --> 00:51:14.400
I think she's really super terrific.

678
00:51:14.460 --> 00:51:15.900
But I think the Celine.

679
00:51:15.960 --> 00:51:21.719
I think the Selena, one of the best monsters that Russell's created, like quite seriously.

680
00:51:21.780 --> 00:51:30.539
I think that they work incredibly well because of the job that they're doing in the satire that that story's doing.

681
00:51:30.599 --> 00:51:42.780
So it turns out our politicians are just fat, flatulent aliens who will allow us all to be killed, provided that some people will make a profit.

682
00:51:42.840 --> 00:51:56.280
And I think, as I said before, it's an absolute blistering satire of neoliberalism and just having them be childish and silly and farty and stuff, having them be genuinely funny.

683
00:51:56.340 --> 00:52:03.659
Remember when Margaret Slaven is collecting all of their skin suits and they hang them up.

684
00:52:03.659 --> 00:52:08.460
And like one of them farts, she goes, oh, you know, that's the that's the spirit or something.

685
00:52:08.519 --> 00:52:11.639
Like they are, they are so wonderful.

686
00:52:11.699 --> 00:52:12.840
They're so great.

687
00:52:12.900 --> 00:52:16.079
So, yeah, I'm going with the Sabine.

688
00:52:16.199 --> 00:52:18.840
Imagine how Russell would have written for COVID this year.

689
00:52:18.900 --> 00:52:19.860
Yeah, yeah.

690
00:52:19.920 --> 00:52:26.639
I think we would have had him at his bitiest and probably also his most humourous and you can bet he would have used this Levine.

691
00:52:26.699 --> 00:52:38.880
Yeah, I think that, you know, aliens of London is massively underrated because I don't think that Doctor Who has done political satire, like that, like, maybe sort of, doesn't.

692
00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:41.519
Makers, but Hulk isn't as funny.

693
00:52:41.579 --> 00:52:43.199
You know, he just isn't as funny.

694
00:52:43.260 --> 00:52:46.199
So I think that that story is a real achievement.

695
00:52:46.260 --> 00:52:50.699
It's super surprising at every turn and the Savina, a huge part of that.

696
00:52:50.760 --> 00:52:55.139
And I think it might be a shame that it was one of the few times that Russell pulled his punches.

697
00:52:55.199 --> 00:52:59.579
They saw the reaction to the slithine, which was not universally positive.

698
00:52:59.639 --> 00:53:06.960
And I think decided really not to use them again. they kind of get hived off into a Sarah Jane Adventures monster, which is a shame.

699
00:53:07.019 --> 00:53:09.119
But before they do, we get Boomtown.

700
00:53:09.179 --> 00:53:12.119
And Boomtown is so good with the slithine.

701
00:53:12.239 --> 00:53:15.840
If you've got a good actress playing them and you just have a single character.

702
00:53:15.900 --> 00:53:18.480
They're amongst the best enemies that we've ever had.

703
00:53:18.539 --> 00:53:20.159
So it's a shame that they don't get used more.

704
00:53:20.219 --> 00:53:24.239
Well, it is that 1st day of filming with the costumes and Keith Boke.

705
00:53:24.300 --> 00:53:25.920
You know, they were never going to survive that.

706
00:53:25.980 --> 00:53:27.179
It's a big problem.

707
00:53:27.300 --> 00:53:29.880
We do have this listener question that came in.

708
00:53:29.940 --> 00:53:32.940
It's from a Natan Botomli.

709
00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:37.679
And it says, what is the best story of...

710
00:53:38.039 --> 00:53:40.860
What is the best story of the RTD era?

711
00:53:40.860 --> 00:53:42.480
And why is it aliens of London?

712
00:53:42.539 --> 00:53:45.420
Perhaps you can answer or have answered that question?

713
00:53:45.539 --> 00:53:46.679
You probably have.

714
00:53:46.739 --> 00:53:49.139
You have the support of the masses, Nathan.

715
00:53:49.260 --> 00:53:51.239
Everyone agrees with me.

716
00:54:00.300 --> 00:54:01.800
What is the one to watch?

717
00:54:01.860 --> 00:54:05.519
What is the one that you always go back to in this entire era if you had to sit down?

718
00:54:05.699 --> 00:54:08.400
Impossible planet in the Satan pits?

719
00:54:08.460 --> 00:54:09.059
Wow, okay.

720
00:54:09.119 --> 00:54:11.039
I think it's phenomenally good.

721
00:54:11.099 --> 00:54:21.360
It's such a melding of Russell sensibility with a Hinchcliffe style story and, you know, a sort of lost evil coming back from the dead.

722
00:54:21.420 --> 00:54:27.000
And of course, that lovely friend of the podcast, Matt Jones. that's his era, Henchcliffe.

723
00:54:27.059 --> 00:54:28.260
And so we were always going to get that.

724
00:54:28.380 --> 00:54:39.780
And I just think, um, it's the two-parter that's brilliantly structured and has a really great um, a really great ensemble cast, all of whom you get to know and love.

725
00:54:39.840 --> 00:54:41.940
And I just think it's knockout.

726
00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:46.199
I think it's except for one other, which we will come to.

727
00:54:46.260 --> 00:54:48.360
It is the best story of the new era.

728
00:54:48.900 --> 00:54:55.199
My go to tends to be the series one finale, the two-part finale for series one.

729
00:54:55.260 --> 00:54:58.619
And it is because of what you were saying before, Peter.

730
00:54:58.679 --> 00:55:12.480
You know, it does those send-ups of TV, um, then it changes to be like a traditional Doctor Who Dalek story, and inside that Doctor Who Dalek story, there's Jackie and Mickey playing their part as well.

731
00:55:12.539 --> 00:55:15.659
It, you know, summarises the era.

732
00:55:15.719 --> 00:55:17.099
It's super confident.

733
00:55:17.159 --> 00:55:18.780
It's incredibly entertaining.

734
00:55:18.840 --> 00:55:20.760
I just think it's magnificent.

735
00:55:20.820 --> 00:55:22.980
It's the one that I watch. maybe more than anything else.

736
00:55:23.039 --> 00:55:31.440
And even within all of the plot that we've got in those stories and all the big things it does, you still have a brilliant new character in the form of Linda with a Y.

737
00:55:31.500 --> 00:55:32.519
Yeah, yeah.

738
00:55:32.579 --> 00:55:34.139
She's a great one off too.

739
00:55:34.199 --> 00:55:35.219
Yeah, isn't she?

740
00:55:35.280 --> 00:55:38.400
Richard is there one that leaps to your mind?

741
00:55:38.460 --> 00:55:46.380
I do keep going back to Moffat stories in this era as being just little jewels, probably because they were just so very different.

742
00:55:46.440 --> 00:55:51.119
They stood as a different dress, a different.

743
00:55:51.119 --> 00:56:00.059
You could really feel that this is someone who has a completely different way of viewing the series, of viewing the concept than Russell.

744
00:56:00.119 --> 00:56:01.380
Can I posit as well, Richard?

745
00:56:01.440 --> 00:56:05.519
A story that you've been a very effective champion for, Daleks in Manhattan.

746
00:56:05.579 --> 00:56:06.780
And you know, the Daleks?

747
00:56:06.840 --> 00:56:07.380
didn't want to.

748
00:56:07.440 --> 00:56:10.440
I am not even a fan of musicals, but I keep going back to it.

749
00:56:10.920 --> 00:56:14.099
Is there an argument that that's the best of the era for you?

750
00:56:14.159 --> 00:56:16.199
It fills the warmest and the most fun.

751
00:56:16.260 --> 00:56:25.920
And if we're talking about this period of writing being about the familial, the comfy and the, you know, the huge sponge, the victorious sponge.

752
00:56:25.980 --> 00:56:26.940
It's that one.

753
00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:29.639
I actually think it's because of Miranda Raisin.

754
00:56:29.699 --> 00:56:33.360
She really makes it work and I love her.

755
00:56:33.420 --> 00:56:40.920
She's probably one of my favourite companions in all of the big Finnish audios and she plays, I mean, she plays lovely RP Wren.

756
00:56:40.980 --> 00:56:44.159
So, of course, we love her and Colin adores her.

757
00:56:44.280 --> 00:56:46.679
So, what's her name again?

758
00:56:46.739 --> 00:56:48.480
Todd in the, have you listened to them yet?

759
00:56:48.480 --> 00:56:51.900
on the, um, the big fishes with, she's just lovely.

760
00:56:51.960 --> 00:56:54.480
Just, just, just, love, love, love, love, love, love, love.

761
00:56:54.539 --> 00:56:55.440
So yeah, no, of course.

762
00:56:55.500 --> 00:56:57.900
I know I keep going back to that. do.

763
00:56:58.019 --> 00:57:10.199
It is, it is really interesting how, like, we're all fans, but we all have such different opinions, like, if you, if you ask me one to avoid, that would be the, the one that I would avoid watching.

764
00:57:10.199 --> 00:57:10.980
That one.

765
00:57:10.980 --> 00:57:16.380
Um, against everything else, if you said, I want to put that on, I would say, I don't really want to watch it, like 9 times out of 10.

766
00:57:16.619 --> 00:57:17.639
So it's really interesting.

767
00:57:17.699 --> 00:57:22.440
Are you going to ask us one to avoid because it's definitely going to be the doctor's daughter?

768
00:57:22.500 --> 00:57:24.719
You've just answered that question.

769
00:57:26.039 --> 00:57:28.079
Nathan will watch everything.

770
00:57:28.139 --> 00:57:30.480
I think I will pretty much watch everything.

771
00:57:30.539 --> 00:57:37.440
I actually find myself, and this is super weird, avoiding the Moffatt ones, apart from blink.

772
00:57:37.500 --> 00:57:47.880
Oh, and it might be like a feeling that I need to save them up for a special occasion or something, or I don't want to waste them, you know, like, but when it comes to blink, I can't resist that urge.

773
00:57:47.940 --> 00:57:50.159
It's the Gareth Roberts City of Death Rule.

774
00:57:50.219 --> 00:57:56.400
He not city of death, and yet he's watched it a sum total of 3 times because he cannot spoil it by watching it too often.

775
00:57:56.460 --> 00:57:57.300
So interesting.

776
00:57:57.420 --> 00:58:01.440
I mean, blink is probably my favourite.

777
00:58:01.679 --> 00:58:13.019
Carrie Mulligan, every time we name a story that we love, it's because of supremely superior. female casting and writing.

778
00:58:13.079 --> 00:58:16.920
But also, which should go in to say, I really like historical settings.

779
00:58:16.980 --> 00:58:30.059
So you give me Pompeii or you give me the Shakespeare code or the werewolf with Queen Victoria or now you've done it with Agatha Christie, they are also go-to's for me.

780
00:58:30.119 --> 00:58:31.679
Totally with you on that one, Todd.

781
00:58:31.739 --> 00:58:45.239
I like the fact that we have historical settings, obviously with the sci-fi element, but you know, characters in there that are funny and relatable and you I'm often having a whale of a time in most of those.

782
00:58:45.300 --> 00:58:47.940
See, when we were growing up and watching Doctor Who.

783
00:58:48.000 --> 00:58:51.780
There was a huge run that just avoided historicals, wasn't there?

784
00:58:51.840 --> 00:58:56.219
Like Williams and and, you know, the Davis and era and stuff.

785
00:58:56.280 --> 00:58:58.320
They just weren't that many historical stories.

786
00:58:58.380 --> 00:59:02.460
So exciting to see a Renaissance sitting room, wasn't it?

787
00:59:02.699 --> 00:59:05.039
What came with thumb screws.

788
00:59:06.539 --> 00:59:11.880
Whenever they did do a pseudohistorical, as they were called back then, they were always good.

789
00:59:11.940 --> 00:59:12.420
Yeah.

790
00:59:12.420 --> 00:59:14.699
Maskman Dragara, the time warrior.

791
00:59:14.699 --> 00:59:16.320
Maskman.

792
00:59:18.780 --> 00:59:19.800
Black Orchard.

793
00:59:19.860 --> 00:59:22.260
Oh, that's cool.

794
00:59:22.320 --> 00:59:24.059
That's great fatigue.

795
00:59:24.059 --> 00:59:24.539
It's drunk.

796
00:59:24.599 --> 00:59:25.739
Mark of the Rani.

797
00:59:25.800 --> 00:59:26.699
Actually, I like Mark.

798
00:59:27.840 --> 00:59:30.000
They glow don't they?

799
00:59:30.599 --> 00:59:32.940
Like strontium 90.

800
00:59:33.119 --> 00:59:37.920
One of the things Russell has introduced in this era are the Christmas specials.

801
00:59:37.980 --> 00:59:39.119
Yes.

802
00:59:39.119 --> 00:59:41.699
I think you're doing John Wiles a disservice there.

803
00:59:44.760 --> 00:59:45.960
I invited you.

804
00:59:46.139 --> 00:59:48.300
When we feast on Stephen.

805
00:59:48.420 --> 00:59:52.380
What I mean is meat and beef and pork and fat.

806
00:59:52.440 --> 00:59:55.739
Well, he was getting bigger is the role, you've got to admit.

807
00:59:55.800 --> 00:59:59.519
Getting him into that jumper and the celestial toy maker was like getting toothpaste back in the tube.

808
01:00:00.179 --> 01:00:02.460
Sorry, Todd, do go on.

809
01:00:02.880 --> 01:00:05.039
As an annual event.

810
01:00:05.099 --> 01:00:08.039
And all of them are with David Tennant thus far.

811
01:00:08.099 --> 01:00:11.519
But they all have their moments like the Christmas invasion.

812
01:00:11.579 --> 01:00:12.719
Like that Christmas tree.

813
01:00:12.780 --> 01:00:18.119
I'm going to be killed by a Christmas tree that is still a moment that is glazed in my head.

814
01:00:18.179 --> 01:00:23.820
You know, in the runaway bride when the doctor doctor's got the TARDIS coming down the freeway.

815
01:00:23.880 --> 01:00:25.860
Like, I mean, another amazing moment.

816
01:00:25.920 --> 01:00:27.300
Santa's a robot.

817
01:00:27.599 --> 01:00:33.179
The voice of the dam, which is my favourite of those being a complete disaster movie.

818
01:00:33.239 --> 01:00:36.179
And of course, we've got the next doctor in the end of time.

819
01:00:36.239 --> 01:00:40.380
So they're probably not in my top three.

820
01:00:40.440 --> 01:00:41.699
What are your favourites of these?

821
01:00:41.760 --> 01:00:44.579
And what do you think of having this Christmas event?

822
01:00:44.940 --> 01:00:46.739
I adore it.

823
01:00:46.800 --> 01:00:47.519
Yep.

824
01:00:47.579 --> 01:00:51.119
It's everything I, I, my little secret child inside.

825
01:00:51.179 --> 01:00:52.619
Oh, yes, I love I love this.

826
01:00:52.679 --> 01:00:53.820
The adult self says.

827
01:00:53.880 --> 01:00:57.059
But no, no, this is for this is for our little child.

828
01:00:57.119 --> 01:00:59.039
This is for the little person inside.

829
01:00:59.099 --> 01:01:00.000
I agree with you.

830
01:01:00.059 --> 01:01:08.219
I think they got less as they went on, but that's maybe just the tyranny of time and the requirements of writing so much.

831
01:01:08.280 --> 01:01:15.539
But I still think Christmas invasion is possibly David's best performances, the doctor.

832
01:01:15.599 --> 01:01:16.500
Can I put it out there?

833
01:01:16.559 --> 01:01:21.420
And I'm not saying it's because I don't see him for most times.

834
01:01:21.480 --> 01:01:27.420
But he really gets it and it's is exactly the way he plays Casanova, even to the hair.

835
01:01:27.480 --> 01:01:30.300
It's the same performance at the end.

836
01:01:30.300 --> 01:01:36.000
And I'm thinking, oh, you're a little bit much, but it's just so refreshing after a year of beautiful Eccleston.

837
01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:37.980
And I mean that, I loved him.

838
01:01:38.039 --> 01:01:39.599
But just to see someone having fun.

839
01:01:40.079 --> 01:01:42.960
He really loves being here.

840
01:01:43.019 --> 01:01:46.260
He's so proud of this moment and he's giving it so much.

841
01:01:46.320 --> 01:01:50.159
How can you not but get carried along with it?

842
01:01:50.519 --> 01:02:04.380
I retweeted something during the week or last week's, uh, where someone was calling for an immediate inquiry into why there were no more Doctor Who Christmas specials anymore, like a trial with uh, you know, prosecutions and perhaps Bellingham.

843
01:02:04.440 --> 01:02:07.980
Like, I just think it's crazy that we don't have them anymore.

844
01:02:08.400 --> 01:02:14.280
And they are a huge part of what made this show as big as possible.

845
01:02:14.340 --> 01:02:16.440
I mean, what gets Christmas specials?

846
01:02:16.500 --> 01:02:17.940
You know, EastEnders.

847
01:02:17.940 --> 01:02:19.320
Call the midwife.

848
01:02:19.380 --> 01:02:22.860
Yeah, just the biggest shows on TV get Christmas specials.

849
01:02:22.920 --> 01:02:24.300
Miss Brown's boys.

850
01:02:24.659 --> 01:02:26.400
Absolutely true.

851
01:02:26.460 --> 01:02:29.159
For all of its many sins, it's one of the biggest shows.

852
01:02:29.219 --> 01:02:32.099
And so Doctor Who becomes the biggest show on TV.

853
01:02:32.159 --> 01:02:33.360
How does that for a crossover?

854
01:02:34.320 --> 01:02:35.699
God.

855
01:02:35.699 --> 01:02:36.480
No.

856
01:02:37.440 --> 01:02:40.019
Mrs. Morbius's boys.

857
01:02:41.280 --> 01:02:43.139
Same actors.

858
01:02:43.320 --> 01:02:46.739
But they're also my go-to's. even past this era.

859
01:02:46.800 --> 01:02:47.579
Yeah.

860
01:02:47.579 --> 01:02:55.199
Because there's a warmth in them even when there's bad things happening and there's a joy usually at the end.

861
01:02:55.260 --> 01:03:02.519
And I just, they're also my go-to is when I think about watching things, it's often I'll come up, and I say to myself, I want to watch a Christmas special.

862
01:03:02.579 --> 01:03:10.920
I think it's great that they're on and that they're big, fun, family oriented shows which reek of Christmas day.

863
01:03:10.980 --> 01:03:20.340
I think there is a slight structural problem in that it becomes every 14th episode of Doctor Who is about Christmas, but I think that becomes less of a problem as it goes on.

864
01:03:20.400 --> 01:03:24.900
The Christmas elements are kind of really jammed into Runaway Bride.

865
01:03:24.960 --> 01:03:27.179
But then you start getting different takes on things.

866
01:03:27.239 --> 01:03:36.539
So you'll end up with an episode later on, like the snowmen, which is not very Christmassy at all, but has all the Christmas trappings of Victorian London and snow and all that.

867
01:03:36.599 --> 01:03:38.460
I think that probably gets it right.

868
01:03:38.519 --> 01:03:44.820
So I get a little bit tired of the Christmas elements, but I'm with Todd, I think Voyage of the Damned is the best of the Russell ones.

869
01:03:44.880 --> 01:03:45.780
So good.

870
01:03:45.840 --> 01:04:02.460
I think, um, you know, like even quite late, like Moffat finds new things to do with the Christmas special and something like last Christmas, which I think is unjustly overlooked. is Christmassy and uses Christmas to say a particular thing.

871
01:04:02.519 --> 01:04:08.219
I think it's a great idea and I think we should never have given that particular time slot up.

872
01:04:08.280 --> 01:04:14.820
And it stops being about Christmas and starts being about big things that you wouldn't normally do in the series.

873
01:04:14.880 --> 01:04:22.320
So it becomes the rom-com with the husbands of River Song and it becomes the DC movie with the return of Dr. Mysterio.

874
01:04:22.380 --> 01:04:28.800
And so you save the Christmas slot, not necessarily for a Christmas episode, but for a big ballsy adventure, you might not otherwise do.

875
01:04:28.920 --> 01:04:31.260
It helps focus, I think, Stephen Moffatt.

876
01:04:31.320 --> 01:04:37.559
And it helps, I think, Russell sort of reset things after we've been crying our eyes out, really.

877
01:04:37.619 --> 01:04:40.440
So I think they're a success in every, every way, shape and form.

878
01:04:40.500 --> 01:04:45.119
We haven't talked much about the production side of things.

879
01:04:45.179 --> 01:04:48.960
There's a number of directors that keep coming back in this era.

880
01:04:49.019 --> 01:04:55.739
You're a slim directs at least 11 episodes, Graham Harper 12, James Strong 7.

881
01:04:55.800 --> 01:05:00.000
Um, and there's others like Elvis Troughton.

882
01:05:00.059 --> 01:05:02.099
I'm just reading a list of names here.

883
01:05:02.159 --> 01:05:09.900
Douglas McKinnon, Charles Palmer, Hetty, McDonald, Colin Teague, you know, James Hawes does 5 back in series one.

884
01:05:09.960 --> 01:05:11.400
Joe O'Hearn.

885
01:05:12.179 --> 01:05:15.179
Are there any directors for you that stand out?

886
01:05:15.239 --> 01:05:24.539
I mean, I've mentioned before, the stellar drop that I think Graham Harper did back in throughout series 4 and certainly Eurus coming back at the end, you can see why.

887
01:05:24.599 --> 01:05:30.000
And it just gives this whole era by using similar people.

888
01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:32.460
And most of them, most of them are fairly successful.

889
01:05:33.719 --> 01:05:39.420
It just gives it a flavour that I really now appreciate so much more.

890
01:05:39.599 --> 01:05:43.619
You never have to worry about the directors in the Russell era.

891
01:05:43.679 --> 01:05:44.519
They always deliver.

892
01:05:44.579 --> 01:05:46.139
There's never a weak link.

893
01:05:46.199 --> 01:05:50.519
You can have different style, you can have different focusses.

894
01:05:50.579 --> 01:05:52.500
You mean from season 2 onwards?

895
01:05:52.619 --> 01:05:55.139
Maybe from block 2 on.

896
01:05:55.199 --> 01:05:56.219
Maybe it's a lot too on.

897
01:05:56.280 --> 01:05:57.300
Yes, I've forgotten, Keith.

898
01:05:57.360 --> 01:05:58.199
Let's not forget.

899
01:05:58.260 --> 01:05:59.639
Keith also has some strengths.

900
01:05:59.699 --> 01:06:08.940
The scene, the very 1st scene that they shot, which is space piggy in the morgue, is a really effectively shot scene.

901
01:06:09.000 --> 01:06:15.420
So, you know, I think maybe he might have been a little bit out of his depth, but he does do some good work, but yeah, let's not include him on the list.

902
01:06:15.659 --> 01:06:20.639
So you'll get people like Graham Harper who just deliver time after time in any kind of story.

903
01:06:20.699 --> 01:06:24.960
He'll give the unicorn and the wasp one week and then he'll give you the stolen earth the next week.

904
01:06:25.019 --> 01:06:36.300
But also occasionally you'll get in a director like Hetty McDonald, who just comes in and gives her own spin and Blink is so beautifully directed and not like a normal Doctor Who story.

905
01:06:36.360 --> 01:06:37.139
A couple of butch.

906
01:06:37.199 --> 01:06:38.699
They're both quite camp, aren't they?

907
01:06:38.760 --> 01:06:40.920
Harper and Hertie.

908
01:06:42.900 --> 01:06:45.599
Very similar styles too, both of them.

909
01:06:45.659 --> 01:06:47.639
I mean, I actually look at their directorial style.

910
01:06:47.699 --> 01:06:56.280
They could both be jumped into an episode of the New Avengers and get Joanna Lumley's high kicks over the barbed wire fence without tearing her stockings very easily.

911
01:06:56.340 --> 01:07:02.880
Am I incorrect in thinking that Hetty McDonald actually directed the seminal gay love story beautiful thing?

912
01:07:02.940 --> 01:07:04.260
Yeah, she did.

913
01:07:04.320 --> 01:07:05.820
So, you know, she was a real fine.

914
01:07:05.880 --> 01:07:10.079
She a feature film director and she comes in and does one episode of our series and just knocks it straight out of life.

915
01:07:10.139 --> 01:07:11.039
Yeah, we're lucky to get her.

916
01:07:11.280 --> 01:07:13.079
Here are some names.

917
01:07:13.139 --> 01:07:15.179
Julie Gardner, Phil Collinson.

918
01:07:15.239 --> 01:07:16.800
Susie Liggett.

919
01:07:16.860 --> 01:07:21.960
Lorraine Hecase, controller of BBC One, Jane Tranter, controller of drama commissioning.

920
01:07:22.019 --> 01:07:23.280
Your thoughts on these people?

921
01:07:24.179 --> 01:07:30.780
One of the things that I miss about Doctor Who from about halfway through the Moffat era onwards?

922
01:07:30.840 --> 01:07:33.659
is just knowing those people.

923
01:07:33.719 --> 01:08:05.219
You know, do you remember the project Who CD, which was that audio documentary that they did about how Doctor Who started again, and then Doctor Who Confidential, and then all of those, they released commentaries as a podcast, like in the week of broadcast, and just knowing all of those people, to the extent that, you know, that I would walk 500 miles, thing, the proclaimers thing that they do with all of the cast and crew.

924
01:08:05.280 --> 01:08:20.939
Like, it never fails to bring tears to my eyes, just because, you know, Russell created that world, but also created that production team that we kind of got to know because we were kind of, you know, absurdly obsessed with all of this.

925
01:08:21.000 --> 01:08:24.119
And I miss, I kind of miss that level.

926
01:08:24.180 --> 01:08:25.439
I didn't have access.

927
01:08:25.500 --> 01:08:26.460
I didn't know any of them.

928
01:08:26.520 --> 01:08:27.960
I know maybe one person on that.

929
01:08:28.020 --> 01:08:30.239
We were our friends, though, in the extension.

930
01:08:30.239 --> 01:08:31.439
We were our friends, yeah.

931
01:08:31.500 --> 01:08:33.060
I loved fill and Julie.

932
01:08:33.119 --> 01:08:33.779
I really do.

933
01:08:33.840 --> 01:08:35.039
Yes, I want this spinoff.

934
01:08:35.159 --> 01:08:44.520
Well, think about, you know, like, his dark materials, which I'm watching at the moment is Jane Trantor and Julie Gardner, and I think our Ross has worked on that too.

935
01:08:44.579 --> 01:08:48.600
You know, like it's, I miss those people when they all went away, I think.

936
01:08:48.659 --> 01:08:55.979
The impression you got was that they made Doctor Who for 16 hours a day and then would gather in each other's lounge rooms and laugh about the day.

937
01:08:56.220 --> 01:08:59.220
Not unlike this podcast.

938
01:08:59.279 --> 01:09:01.739
They just gather around and talk nonsense about Doctor Who.

939
01:09:01.800 --> 01:09:03.420
And it was beautiful.

940
01:09:03.479 --> 01:09:12.600
And I think that's all to Russell's credit as well because he attracted those very personable, very competent people to the series and they all jelled.

941
01:09:16.079 --> 01:09:23.399
The music of Murray Gold. is one other thing that I'd like to talk about before we head to a conclusion.

942
01:09:23.640 --> 01:09:28.380
For me, knew who is about what he does.

943
01:09:28.560 --> 01:09:47.520
It's a distinction between classic and Yoo Hoo, and I absolutely adore his scoring of themes of pivotal moments, perhaps telling a sport how to feel at times, but I really adore it, and I think Stephen, to keep him on, was the right decision to make at that time.

944
01:09:47.579 --> 01:09:54.899
And yes, I know some people who listen to the podcast feel that he's very intrusive at times.

945
01:09:54.960 --> 01:10:03.600
But when I think of Doctor Who, then you who, it's just something that is the forefront of my mind and I think the man's a genius.

946
01:10:03.720 --> 01:10:13.140
I just think complaining that the music is telling you how to feel. seems like that's a baffling thing to say. you know what I mean?

947
01:10:13.199 --> 01:10:30.239
It's, it's, um, it's what the music is for, and this is a melodrama, and it's an adventure story, and having something big and orchestral, like a Star Wars film would have, like, you know, Indiana Jones has.

948
01:10:30.300 --> 01:10:33.180
I think it was absolutely the right choice.

949
01:10:33.239 --> 01:10:38.699
And, you know, there are times where you can see Murray recycling some music cues and all of that.

950
01:10:38.760 --> 01:10:49.319
Like he's not always bringing his A game and I watched the 11th hour yesterday and he's clearly decided to just absolutely sort of amp things up a bit and do an incredible job there.

951
01:10:49.380 --> 01:10:57.539
But even in Russell's era, it's just an indispensable part of the way the era feels, it's wonderful.

952
01:10:57.600 --> 01:10:58.920
It's another.

953
01:10:58.979 --> 01:10:59.640
Yeah, yeah.

954
01:10:59.699 --> 01:11:03.300
And each story has a different flavour.

955
01:11:03.359 --> 01:11:07.979
So even though he's working to a formula and it's Murray on every episode.

956
01:11:08.039 --> 01:11:14.640
So much of what I think of these stories in my mind's eye is to do with how they sound, and that's entirely down to him.

957
01:11:14.699 --> 01:11:19.319
I think he's phenomenal and I would be very happy if he was still on the show now.

958
01:11:19.380 --> 01:11:21.119
I think he's a good structuralist.

959
01:11:21.180 --> 01:11:25.560
He certainly understands the way an orchestra works.

960
01:11:25.619 --> 01:11:30.239
And maybe this is what film composers need to be and always have been going right back to corn gold.

961
01:11:30.300 --> 01:11:31.859
He's a good bricker largest.

962
01:11:31.920 --> 01:11:43.859
So whether he's doing caccatourian or Sanson, you know, and everyone in between, he does it really, obviously, he's quite exploitative of past composer's work.

963
01:11:43.920 --> 01:11:46.140
But then again, I can't really think of a successful.

964
01:11:46.260 --> 01:11:47.220
John Williams does that too.

965
01:11:47.279 --> 01:11:49.680
I can't think of a successful composer who doesn't do that.

966
01:11:49.739 --> 01:11:51.180
And in his own right.

967
01:11:51.239 --> 01:11:55.680
I mean, I do love, I do love Auntie Flavia's theme.

968
01:11:55.739 --> 01:11:58.619
I love what I can't forgive Timothy Dalton for what he did to her.

969
01:11:58.920 --> 01:12:01.079
I do love...

970
01:12:01.140 --> 01:12:02.819
Yeah, I love his little mood moments.

971
01:12:02.880 --> 01:12:06.840
He understands what scoring needs to be.

972
01:12:06.899 --> 01:12:16.020
And yes, it is big and it's always full of marshmallow and fat and cholesterol and all the good things that it should be.

973
01:12:16.079 --> 01:12:18.420
Yeah, I go, he's absolutely right for Russell.

974
01:12:18.479 --> 01:12:22.020
Let's see if he's right for Moffatt, but I'm certainly agree with you, Tom.

975
01:12:22.079 --> 01:12:23.159
It's what we needed.

976
01:12:23.279 --> 01:12:30.899
And people complain that he scores for characters as well, but that overlooks the fact that every one of his themes for the regular characters is amazing.

977
01:12:30.960 --> 01:12:31.560
Yeah brilliant.

978
01:12:31.619 --> 01:12:36.899
That rose theme from series one, which then carries over into series 2 and then gets referenced onwards.

979
01:12:36.960 --> 01:12:41.939
It even plays when Mickey leaves in the age of steel, is phenomenally.

980
01:12:42.000 --> 01:12:44.100
Martha's theme is beautiful.

981
01:12:44.159 --> 01:12:45.779
So gorgeous, isn't it?

982
01:12:45.899 --> 01:12:47.279
And he does different things with it.

983
01:12:47.340 --> 01:12:57.960
Donna's theme is really fun and funny. that all the strange, strange creatures thing that was used, you know, on Next Time trailers and stuff, you know, just so good.

984
01:12:58.020 --> 01:13:08.279
And the most heartbreaking thing he ever did, which is Donna's theme from turn left, which he then recycles for when she has the metacrisis and has to have her mind wiped.

985
01:13:08.340 --> 01:13:11.340
And it gets you in the heart every time.

986
01:13:11.819 --> 01:13:16.500
Your final thoughts on the different Tardis teams of this era.

987
01:13:16.560 --> 01:13:18.180
Eccleston and Piper.

988
01:13:18.359 --> 01:13:24.539
I think they're both magnificent together, just absolutely perfect.

989
01:13:24.600 --> 01:13:28.199
It was so exciting, so different from what we expected.

990
01:13:28.260 --> 01:13:28.680
I think.

991
01:13:28.739 --> 01:13:32.220
I'm so different from anything that had ever happened before but just brilliant.

992
01:13:32.279 --> 01:13:34.260
It feels so right.

993
01:13:34.319 --> 01:13:40.619
And seeing Christopher, perhaps, in those final 5 episodes, I think he really nails it at the end of that season.

994
01:13:40.680 --> 01:13:51.720
And, and, you know, through Fate or whatever, having that one season with him, I think in the end has served the show so well.

995
01:13:52.140 --> 01:14:11.939
I was living in London at the time, and in the week that the 1st episode went out, Rose, I walked into Waterloo Station, and there, at the end of the station, was a massive poster of Christopher Eccleston and Billy Piper in character, looking back towards the camera with the Tartar stores behind them, and the motto, I think, do you want to come with me?

996
01:14:12.000 --> 01:14:16.800
And I stood there looking at it and I thought, these guys have always inhabited these characters.

997
01:14:16.859 --> 01:14:18.659
I'm here for it right now and I haven't seen it.

998
01:14:18.720 --> 01:14:26.760
You can see Eccleston's delight in just how good a performer Billy really is. right from the word go.

999
01:14:26.819 --> 01:14:28.800
I think that gave him his impetus.

1000
01:14:28.859 --> 01:14:30.840
Piper and Tennant?

1001
01:14:30.899 --> 01:14:42.239
I mean, people have said before in this episode that they don't know that they work all that well together, but I do think that there is a reason that they're regarded as iconic.

1002
01:14:42.300 --> 01:14:47.939
And, you know, it's the relationship that people remember from this era maybe more than any other.

1003
01:14:48.239 --> 01:14:52.619
I think there's something to be said for how much fun they're having.

1004
01:14:52.680 --> 01:14:57.779
And I think that it's important in Doctor Who to show that.

1005
01:14:57.840 --> 01:15:04.380
Remember we were complaining about the Hinge Cliff era and the way Sarah's being dragged through corridors full of dead bodies.

1006
01:15:04.439 --> 01:15:06.300
I remember ever complaining about the Hinchcliffe era.

1007
01:15:06.300 --> 01:15:09.539
Being pushed down the stairs and blinded.

1008
01:15:09.600 --> 01:15:10.140
Yeah, yeah.

1009
01:15:10.199 --> 01:15:15.359
So it's nice to see them having fun, even if they do seem rather smug.

1010
01:15:15.479 --> 01:15:17.279
Yeah, and don't get me wrong on that.

1011
01:15:17.340 --> 01:15:23.880
I think that the chemistry between David and Billy is so amazing that they are rightly iconic.

1012
01:15:23.939 --> 01:15:31.439
In fact, that's even referenced in the series in my favourite 2 parter of the era, where they are the stuff of legends at the end.

1013
01:15:31.500 --> 01:15:32.340
They even say it on screen.

1014
01:15:32.399 --> 01:15:40.020
I think it's problem that the character doesn't necessarily work as well with the 10th doctor as with the ninth, but they easily overcome that.

1015
01:15:40.079 --> 01:15:42.539
Yeah, I think what you're saying there.

1016
01:15:42.600 --> 01:15:44.939
You're comparing it to the relationship the year before.

1017
01:15:45.000 --> 01:15:51.239
And if you didn't have that the year before, you wouldn't be saying, oh, they're not as good because they are extremely all together.

1018
01:15:52.500 --> 01:15:55.979
Freema and David.

1019
01:15:56.039 --> 01:16:02.819
I think it's really underrated and I think she's really underrated and I really love that character so much more.

1020
01:16:02.880 --> 01:16:04.979
And when she leaves on her own terms.

1021
01:16:05.039 --> 01:16:07.920
I think it really says something to his character.

1022
01:16:07.979 --> 01:16:12.060
And I think they actually work a lot better than perhaps what even David or people think.

1023
01:16:12.119 --> 01:16:12.960
Yeah.

1024
01:16:13.020 --> 01:16:18.960
I think the it's the best leaving scene of the era because it isn't motivated by science fiction reasons.

1025
01:16:19.020 --> 01:16:21.359
And so there's a real truth to it.

1026
01:16:21.420 --> 01:16:22.199
I think that's great.

1027
01:16:22.260 --> 01:16:28.079
We've said before and, you know, everyone says, oh, if only she hadn't been in love with a doctor or whatever.

1028
01:16:28.140 --> 01:16:45.840
But I think it's a forgivable mistake because, you know, Russell very definitely wants there to be adults in the Tartars who are attracted to one another and stuff like that and making the doctor kind of a figure that you don't have those feelings for isn't what this year is going for at all.

1029
01:16:45.899 --> 01:16:48.060
So I can forgive it.

1030
01:16:48.119 --> 01:16:48.779
But yeah.

1031
01:16:48.840 --> 01:16:50.159
And I think she's wonderful.

1032
01:16:50.220 --> 01:16:54.119
I wonder if it was Russell's idea to make us dislike the doctor a little bit.

1033
01:16:54.180 --> 01:16:56.819
Because he's just so good at this.

1034
01:16:56.880 --> 01:17:05.640
Russell is also really dark and his humour is that kind of person will get out there winkle picker and poke any situation.

1035
01:17:05.699 --> 01:17:13.920
I'm sure he's a terror to have at a party or in an intimate friendship because he would just keep going that little bit to get at your truth.

1036
01:17:13.979 --> 01:17:15.359
A lot of writers are like this.

1037
01:17:15.420 --> 01:17:23.880
There doesn't tend to be a lot of compunction for, I hope this won't make you feel bad at the end, but I need to know how you feel about this.

1038
01:17:23.939 --> 01:17:31.199
I can see him being you know, I can see him being quite a difficult partner. in the home situation.

1039
01:17:31.260 --> 01:17:34.560
No, I think they quite deliberately did that too.

1040
01:17:34.680 --> 01:17:42.180
And when he saw when he saw David's reaction, which was not dissimilar to Tom and Lou Jamison's thing.

1041
01:17:42.239 --> 01:17:43.859
I only thought, aha, I've got that again.

1042
01:17:43.920 --> 01:17:48.840
I'm going to work with this I think it was probably wicked enough to actually exploit that.

1043
01:17:48.899 --> 01:18:01.380
It's not really very fair to Freema and, you know, my opinions on this. ventured before, but I don't, yeah, I think it works out very well and certainly Freema triumphs at the end of it.

1044
01:18:01.439 --> 01:18:05.460
That's a fantastic leaving scene that she has, probably one of the best of all time.

1045
01:18:05.520 --> 01:18:07.380
Don't need you.

1046
01:18:07.439 --> 01:18:08.939
Yeah, yeah.

1047
01:18:09.000 --> 01:18:20.399
I think it's the human nature problem where human nature is really great and you look at it while you're watching and you think, well, this might be the best of the season, except blink then comes along.

1048
01:18:20.460 --> 01:18:24.899
I think Freema and David work really well and Martha's great character.

1049
01:18:24.960 --> 01:18:36.119
However, they've already had a sample of how David works with Catherine and that is just that little bit better, even though the doctor and Freema is fantastic.

1050
01:18:36.180 --> 01:18:38.579
And so it's an embarrassment of riches.

1051
01:18:38.640 --> 01:18:41.460
So, of course, Catherine Tate and David Tennant.

1052
01:18:41.520 --> 01:18:42.479
I mean, stuff of legends.

1053
01:18:42.539 --> 01:18:43.260
Yeah.

1054
01:18:43.260 --> 01:18:44.340
It's that thing.

1055
01:18:44.399 --> 01:18:51.720
It's Colin Baker needs Evelyn so that he can't bully her because she's immune to that.

1056
01:18:51.779 --> 01:19:02.699
You know, John Pertie needs Joe Grant because he's super unlikeable until Joe comes along and then it's clear that he loves her and so he must be a good guy.

1057
01:19:02.760 --> 01:19:06.779
What David Tennant needs is someone to make fun of him.

1058
01:19:06.840 --> 01:19:10.319
And she does such a great job of that.

1059
01:19:10.380 --> 01:19:13.079
And on top of that, to our absolute astonishment.

1060
01:19:13.140 --> 01:19:15.420
She's an incredibly good actor.

1061
01:19:15.479 --> 01:19:20.340
And so she's able to sort of carry all the emotional sort of things.

1062
01:19:20.340 --> 01:19:25.079
And I'd much rather watch Catherine crying in the TARDIS than David Tennant, I think.

1063
01:19:25.619 --> 01:19:34.079
I think, um, it may be, we talked about it on the podcast, the only time apart from William Russell and William Hartner, where we had co-leads.

1064
01:19:34.140 --> 01:19:47.640
Catherine Tate is that strong and that well-known and famous that she could come in and own the series and not take away from David because they work really well together, but you could watch Donahue quite easily.

1065
01:19:47.699 --> 01:19:50.699
I think Janet Fielding put up a good fight.

1066
01:19:59.760 --> 01:20:04.500
Do we have any Jenny Laird awards or Bonnie Langford nominations for this era?

1067
01:20:04.560 --> 01:20:28.319
I mean, I give the money length it to Russell T. Davies because he is that good and I just didn't necessarily see it all at that time and his ability to showrun to write interesting characters from, you know, secretaries to companions, to be able to come up with scripts, polish other people's scripts, to have the right, the serendipity of events or the right casting.

1068
01:20:28.380 --> 01:20:29.460
It's just incredible.

1069
01:20:29.520 --> 01:20:38.039
No wonder he was so tired there at the end, but, you know, for 4 seasons, building and building and building and writing, just, yeah, amazing.

1070
01:20:38.100 --> 01:20:41.640
I give that to Julie and Phil as well.

1071
01:20:41.699 --> 01:20:43.979
Yeah, it's a triumvirate.

1072
01:20:44.039 --> 01:20:45.180
Yeah, I think so.

1073
01:20:45.300 --> 01:20:48.420
This is still my favourite era of the show.

1074
01:20:48.479 --> 01:20:52.439
Like absolutely of the entire show, including the classic series.

1075
01:20:52.500 --> 01:21:00.359
I don't think Doctor Who had been as good as this up until now, and I don't think it's ever been as good as this again.

1076
01:21:00.420 --> 01:21:16.319
I think that we didn't deserve someone as skilled at television writing and production as Russell and someone who knows and loves Doctor Who and who is writing our memory of Doctor Who rather than a direct continuation of Doctor Who.

1077
01:21:16.380 --> 01:21:27.300
He's writing a sort of Doctor Who, that's composed of all of the things that we love and remember and all of the things that really worked and I think it just came off magnificently.

1078
01:21:27.359 --> 01:21:30.180
So he gets my Bonnie Langford, I think.

1079
01:21:30.239 --> 01:21:42.720
You know, without these 45 years, we would not have the next 10, like if he had not been as half as talented, the show would not have survived changes of showrunners. absolutely right.

1080
01:21:42.779 --> 01:21:47.819
Can I give a specific Bonnie Langford to Catherine Tate and the casting of?

1081
01:21:47.819 --> 01:21:59.340
Yeah, because Catherine Tate was stunt casting to an extent, but it proves that J&T had the right instinct because Bonnie Langford back in the day was the same kind of stunt casting.

1082
01:21:59.460 --> 01:22:06.840
It was someone who had a profile, who was brought in to sort of be popular with the masses, and it didn't quite come off because of various things at the time.

1083
01:22:06.899 --> 01:22:10.619
We didn't have a script editor who was on board with that.

1084
01:22:10.680 --> 01:22:16.380
The program itself wasn't popular enough to sort of withstand that external barrage.

1085
01:22:16.439 --> 01:22:23.399
But I think they were the same idea and Catherine Tate shows how well it can work. and could have worked with Bonnie.

1086
01:22:23.460 --> 01:22:27.180
And, you know, maybe they could bring Bonnie back now because she's such a proven dramatic actress.

1087
01:22:27.239 --> 01:22:28.920
I'm sure that she would have the same positive effect.

1088
01:22:28.979 --> 01:22:31.739
I missed having Lou Jamieson.

1089
01:22:31.800 --> 01:22:33.479
Louise Jamison in this series.

1090
01:22:33.539 --> 01:22:34.140
I really did.

1091
01:22:34.199 --> 01:22:41.340
I was thinking there were so many opportunities where she could have appeared, not necessarily as Leila, would have liked her as one of the mothers.

1092
01:22:41.399 --> 01:22:45.539
She could have been scribbling away behind Rastalon and then...

1093
01:22:45.600 --> 01:22:48.000
Well, actually, no, I do have a little quickie question.

1094
01:22:48.060 --> 01:22:52.859
What's the Claire Bloom character meant to be our Susan?

1095
01:22:52.920 --> 01:22:55.319
Was that actually written for Carol Anne?

1096
01:22:55.380 --> 01:23:00.359
I think Russell has said that he thinks it's the doctor's mother.

1097
01:23:00.420 --> 01:23:00.960
Yeah.

1098
01:23:00.960 --> 01:23:09.899
And he has deliberately just not said anything in order to leave that open for people to play with, I think.

1099
01:23:09.960 --> 01:23:12.479
I think it's post-regeneration Engen.

1100
01:23:12.539 --> 01:23:15.119
Yay That's true.

1101
01:23:15.180 --> 01:23:16.859
It could be runsable for all we, you know.

1102
01:23:16.920 --> 01:23:19.260
All right, Snorg Mary avoid.

1103
01:23:19.319 --> 01:23:22.739
The Lord President, Josiah A. Smith, Sean Temple.

1104
01:23:23.159 --> 01:23:25.680
Oh, you'd have to Snog Sean.

1105
01:23:25.739 --> 01:23:28.920
PC. what's his name from the bill?

1106
01:23:29.579 --> 01:23:32.399
No, you'd have to marry Sean.

1107
01:23:32.460 --> 01:23:38.939
I mean, you know, like, Donna has terrible taste in Man Up until this point.

1108
01:23:38.939 --> 01:23:42.420
But, um, he does seem very nice and he's good for her.

1109
01:23:42.479 --> 01:23:44.579
So I think that he would be a good one to marry.

1110
01:23:44.640 --> 01:23:49.439
Um, I would avoid the nasmiths because um, terrible.

1111
01:23:49.439 --> 01:23:51.600
Because they are...

1112
01:23:51.600 --> 01:23:53.340
Just not one, you'd have to snog the other.

1113
01:23:53.340 --> 01:23:55.140
All of them, you'd have to snog all of them.

1114
01:23:55.199 --> 01:24:02.460
And I would definitely snog Timothy Dalton because he's James Bond.

1115
01:24:02.520 --> 01:24:04.199
James Bond.

1116
01:24:04.319 --> 01:24:06.180
But they'd left him with his fluffy morning hair.

1117
01:24:06.479 --> 01:24:08.640
There's nothing to him.

1118
01:24:08.699 --> 01:24:10.140
He's obviously turned up 5 minutes.

1119
01:24:10.199 --> 01:24:11.279
Remember, give me that.

1120
01:24:11.340 --> 01:24:12.600
Oh, okay, we're doing King Arthur.

1121
01:24:12.659 --> 01:24:13.619
That's the glove.

1122
01:24:13.680 --> 01:24:14.340
No love.

1123
01:24:14.399 --> 01:24:16.560
Just do whatever you'd usually do.

1124
01:24:16.619 --> 01:24:17.220
Oh, points.

1125
01:24:17.340 --> 01:24:18.720
Yes, that disappointing giggle.

1126
01:24:18.779 --> 01:24:19.140
There you go.

1127
01:24:19.199 --> 01:24:21.300
He'd shag the living daylights out here.

1128
01:24:21.359 --> 01:24:22.260
Hey.

1129
01:24:24.239 --> 01:24:31.020
So we're about to embark on a new era in series 5 as we sit here right now.

1130
01:24:31.079 --> 01:24:39.539
What are your thoughts, expectations or what you hope to discover in the next series or where do you sit with it?

1131
01:24:39.600 --> 01:24:43.020
I'm looking forward to Clair Foy as the new companion.

1132
01:24:43.079 --> 01:24:53.460
And some lovely sets and some really interesting badinage and close and just to know how harmonious relationship in the Tartars can actually be.

1133
01:24:53.520 --> 01:24:56.819
I'm looking forward to seeing Moffat fail.

1134
01:24:56.880 --> 01:25:10.859
And I say this, as in what we've seen so far, is Stephen coming in and doing one or 2 episodes per season and giving us of his best because he's got all the time in the world to do them and he's coming in and doing one or 2 episodes per year.

1135
01:25:10.920 --> 01:25:12.180
He's giving of his best.

1136
01:25:12.239 --> 01:25:16.500
He doesn't have all the problems of running the show and dealing with other writers.

1137
01:25:16.560 --> 01:25:22.979
I'm looking forward to seeing what he will do when he's placed under pressure and what he will deliver.

1138
01:25:23.039 --> 01:25:29.579
And I think we'll get some episodes in the next few seasons, which are not Moffat at his best, but which are stunningly interesting.

1139
01:25:29.640 --> 01:25:31.500
So not predicting any cracks.

1140
01:25:31.560 --> 01:25:39.659
I want to see an episode from him where he's not firing on all cylinders and just how interesting that will be. expect your wish will be granted.

1141
01:25:39.840 --> 01:25:45.899
It is the thing where Moffat is more ambitious and more experimental.

1142
01:25:45.960 --> 01:25:52.260
Far more, you know, beyond the just original kind of feat of bringing the show back.

1143
01:25:52.319 --> 01:25:54.000
Like now the show's back.

1144
01:25:54.060 --> 01:25:56.159
It's been going for 5 years.

1145
01:25:56.220 --> 01:26:02.880
He is much, much more ambitious and he has a completely different take.

1146
01:26:02.880 --> 01:26:07.380
And I think his highs are higher and his lows are lower.

1147
01:26:07.439 --> 01:26:10.199
I wonder if that will feel like a panic response, though.

1148
01:26:10.260 --> 01:26:14.399
I think there's all sorts of panic responses over the next few years.

1149
01:26:14.520 --> 01:26:17.279
I think that's very clearly a thing that happened too.

1150
01:26:17.399 --> 01:26:20.340
And so that stuff's going to be terribly interesting.

1151
01:26:20.399 --> 01:26:26.640
But I actually think that Moffat, Moffat's approach is very interesting indeed, and I'm really looking forward to getting into it.

1152
01:26:26.760 --> 01:26:37.920
For me, I guess with series 5, I always used to say, oh, series 4 and 5 are about the same, whether that proves to be in terms of my enjoyment, the same thing.

1153
01:26:37.979 --> 01:26:50.939
I guess the focus I'll be looking at is Amy Pond and Karen Gillan's performance, which I don't universally love, and I've always loved Matt Smith and Arthur Darvel.

1154
01:26:51.000 --> 01:26:57.600
So I'm going to be really focussing on her next year to see what she's delivering and how the character of Amy is written as well throughout that series.

1155
01:26:57.659 --> 01:27:00.180
So that's where I'm at with things.

1156
01:27:04.020 --> 01:27:14.699
So we've reached the end, there's only but one snog Marrier void left, and thanks to Colin Neal, we had a chat about this, and here it go, Snog, Mary, avoid.

1157
01:27:14.760 --> 01:27:19.800
Jackie Tyler, Supreme Commander Servolan, Emperor Philippa Giorgio.

1158
01:27:19.859 --> 01:27:20.399
Nathan.

1159
01:27:21.300 --> 01:27:27.600
So, well, Emperor Philippa Giorgio is, of course, my cousin-in-law, cousin Michelle.

1160
01:27:27.720 --> 01:27:31.680
And I think she is actually really pretty great.

1161
01:27:31.739 --> 01:27:37.319
But I'm just not a huge fan of her management style.

1162
01:27:37.380 --> 01:27:43.500
And, you know, it is possible to disappoint the supreme commander and live.

1163
01:27:43.560 --> 01:27:48.899
I'm not quite so sure that it's possible to disappoint Philippa Georgia in the same way.

1164
01:27:48.960 --> 01:27:50.340
So I'd avoid her.

1165
01:27:50.399 --> 01:27:57.539
I would snog the supreme commander because I have a feeling that she would very much like me to do that again.

1166
01:27:59.100 --> 01:28:03.420
And so I would absolutely marry Jackie Tyler.

1167
01:28:03.479 --> 01:28:08.460
You could do much worse than Jackie Tyler as supreme commander of the Terran Federation, couldn't you?

1168
01:28:08.520 --> 01:28:11.579
She'd have those outer planets in line.

1169
01:28:33.359 --> 01:28:36.600
Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week.

1170
01:28:36.720 --> 01:28:46.199
We'll be back in a few weeks' time with our coverage of series five, starting with Matt Smith's first story as the doctor, the 11th hour.

1171
01:28:46.260 --> 01:29:02.220
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook, at FTE podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, and Jody into Terror.

1172
01:29:02.340 --> 01:29:09.420
Until next time, remember that some people live more in 20 years than others do in 80.

1173
01:29:09.600 --> 01:29:11.279
It's not the time that matters.

1174
01:29:11.340 --> 01:29:12.479
It's the person.

1175
01:29:12.539 --> 01:29:15.600
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1176
01:29:15.659 --> 01:29:17.159
See you soon.

1177
01:29:17.220 --> 01:29:17.640
Good night.

1178
01:29:17.699 --> 01:29:18.539
Good then.

1179
01:29:21.600 --> 01:29:27.000
That was Flight 3 Entirety, starring Todd Bilby, Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffiths, and Richard Stone.

1180
01:29:27.000 --> 01:29:30.600
Themer ancient by Cameron Lamb, Strings performance by Jane Alberg.

1181
01:29:30.659 --> 01:29:37.500
This episode, Technical Virtuosity, was recorded on the 27th of December 2020, and released on the 8th of January 2021.

1182
01:29:40.680 --> 01:29:43.500
Russell D. Davis, Channel 4 drama.

1183
01:29:43.560 --> 01:29:49.140
It's a sin will be broadcast at the end of this month, and we're awaiting it with a mixture of both excitement and dread.

1184
01:29:49.260 --> 01:29:51.779
Let's look after one another while we watch it.

1185
01:29:51.840 --> 01:29:52.199
Okay?

1186
01:29:55.260 --> 01:29:57.000
So I guess I'll do the thing.

1187
01:29:57.060 --> 01:29:58.920
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1188
01:29:58.979 --> 01:29:59.399
Yeah.

1189
01:30:00.000 --> 01:30:01.380
Yeah.

1190
01:30:01.380 --> 01:30:03.960
Closing statement?

1191
01:30:04.020 --> 01:30:06.779
I don't think I haven't done, yeah, and I think we've covered it, haven't we?

1192
01:30:06.840 --> 01:30:08.520
I can't think of anything we haven't said.

1193
01:30:08.579 --> 01:30:12.899
Over the last 60 episodes. 68 episodes.

1194
01:30:12.960 --> 01:30:17.100
And let's not forget. how great Camille Kudry is as Jackie Tomlin.

1195
01:30:17.159 --> 01:30:18.600
Without her, we would not have...

1196
01:30:18.600 --> 01:30:19.739
That depended on Camille.

1197
01:30:19.800 --> 01:30:21.180
That was all right. was the right thing to do.

1198
01:30:21.239 --> 01:30:22.199
It's that thing.

1199
01:30:22.260 --> 01:30:25.199
It's that thing where, you know, if it wasn't for Barbara Wright.

1200
01:30:25.260 --> 01:30:28.739
We wouldn't have the show and I just think if it wasn't for Kamil Kaduri, we wouldn't have the show.

1201
01:30:28.800 --> 01:30:31.439
Yes, I think that would be a tag.

1202
01:30:31.500 --> 01:30:33.779
I talked about family earlier, weren't we?

1203
01:30:33.840 --> 01:30:35.220
We don't really mean the other families.

1204
01:30:35.279 --> 01:30:36.000
We mean Jackie.

1205
01:30:36.060 --> 01:30:36.659
Yeah.

1206
01:30:36.720 --> 01:30:40.380
Oh, no, I'd like I mean, I mean the other family as well, but Jackie is Jackie.

1207
01:30:40.439 --> 01:30:43.500
I still want I still want to have drinks with Francine.

1208
01:30:43.560 --> 01:30:46.380
She's in Bridgerton. you know about this?

1209
01:30:46.439 --> 01:30:51.600
Oh, so it's like a sort of crappy romance novel set in the regency period.

1210
01:30:51.659 --> 01:30:53.460
It all just dropped on Netflix.

1211
01:30:53.520 --> 01:30:55.199
It's colourblind casting.

1212
01:30:55.560 --> 01:31:01.079
And so the male lead, the Duke is a very, very handsome black man.

1213
01:31:01.079 --> 01:31:06.420
And a Joa is in it as well. as Lady Danford or something.

1214
01:31:06.479 --> 01:31:12.000
And my friend Robert has watched nearly the whole series since it dropped 2 days ago.

1215
01:31:12.000 --> 01:31:14.039
And he just says she's magnificent in it.

1216
01:31:14.100 --> 01:31:15.960
So I'm quite excited.

1217
01:31:16.020 --> 01:31:18.539
Oh, I'm glad she got work since the last we saw her.

1218
01:31:18.600 --> 01:31:19.920
We're sheltering under a table.

1219
01:31:19.979 --> 01:31:22.439
She's in cucumber, remember?

1220
01:31:22.500 --> 01:31:25.079
Oh, she, oh, and she's great.

1221
01:31:25.199 --> 01:31:26.399
Again, sort of terrible.

1222
01:31:26.460 --> 01:31:28.079
She's in Julius Caesar, isn't she?

1223
01:31:28.079 --> 01:31:29.880
She did Julius Caesar in London.

1224
01:31:29.939 --> 01:31:30.779
Oh, okay.

1225
01:31:30.840 --> 01:31:31.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1226
01:31:31.560 --> 01:31:32.100
She's really good.

1227
01:31:32.159 --> 01:31:39.659
And let's not forget the videos that the Russell mums did during lockdown and HR is so beautiful in them.

1228
01:31:39.720 --> 01:31:42.000
Oh, look them up. are so warm and gorgeous.

1229
01:31:42.060 --> 01:31:45.420
What was that just with Russell as a little COVID thing for us all?

1230
01:31:45.479 --> 01:31:47.340
Yeah, I can't remember exactly what it was.

1231
01:31:47.399 --> 01:31:56.640
They sort of did like 2 or 3 minutes to camera just basically telling people to keep their spirits up and we love you, Doctor Who fans, and it is so heartwarming.

1232
01:31:57.000 --> 01:31:58.619
Nostril.

1233
01:31:58.680 --> 01:32:01.140
No, she's very cool. right.

1234
01:32:01.199 --> 01:32:03.180
We're actors, we need.

1235
01:32:03.300 --> 01:32:03.659
They do.

1236
01:32:04.800 --> 01:32:08.340
Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week.