Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety
the only Doctor Who podcast consistently surprised that all this
is what most people decided to vote for.
I'm Nathan.
I'm Brendan.
I'm Stephen.
And I'm Kevin.
Well, it's the year 3290, and the sun itself has turned against us
and so some of us have stayed behind on a space station to be
eaten by wasps, while others are facing a still more terrible fate
participation in the British political system.
Will we be complicit or will we be the ones who walk away?
Let's find out as we face the beast below.
At least no one's getting infected by typhoid dodo in this
episode.
That's right.
They got to face whatever McClintock candy burgers are, though.
I mean, it's got to.
So I guess this picks up immediately or more or less immediately
after the 11th hour?
There was that little minisode set between the two, right, where
the doctor shoves Amy out the Tardis.
Oh yes, that's right.
That's right.
Totally unnecessary.
I'm glad they cut it But I mean, how beautiful is that opening?
I mean, for one thing, we don't get voiceovers that often with the
companions like 1st person just telling us about themselves, but
just for that beautiful shot of Amy drifting in space, the doctor
holding her leg.
It's just so different, so fresh and I always get swept up by it.
It is that fairy tale thing, isn't it?
You know, she's flying, someone's holding her ankle.
It's like Peter Pan or something.
She's in her nightdress.
There's the night sky.
And so we get a 1st person narrative because for Moffatt.
Everything's about telling stories.
It's also wonderful that as you see on Doctor Who Confidential, as
usual, to achieve their shot, they chunk Karen Gillen in a pool
and say, look serene.
Go on the water and look serene.
We just need we just need the hair to act.
You just look serene dear while you're holding your breath.
I did actually wonder about that.
But she doesn't look at all wet, so it's the scooty minister
school of floating in space acting.
Yeah, yeah.
It is a beautiful, beautiful scene.
It really is.
I think, I mean, this is, if you, if you like, the Moffat version
of the end of the world, and I think you alluded to that in the
introduction there, Nathan, as well.
And as such, as that sort of continuity free 2nd episode.
It really does a lot to set the tone.
And it is very much fairy tale in the sense that, you know, Russell
um, gives the space aliens, but it also gives us a human heart.
And at the end, you know, it's the doctor in rose eating chips in
Trafalgar Square.
But here it's, it's much more than that. something so different.
We've got that sort of associative logic that sort of comes with
that fairy tale sort of genre.
And I'm all here for it.
Like right from that 1st scene, um, that we have in the episode
proper after the cold open, which I guess we'll talk about later
but also that, that sort of final sequence where they're looking
out over the starship UK through those giant windows, which I
think, again, calls to mind end of the world, you know, the sort
of giant windows looking out over the, over the earth.
I think it's interesting you imagine like how much this owes to
the end of the world because I was thinking structurally, it's got
a lot the same, the way it splits the doctor and Amy into
investigations.
I mean, you've got sort of the similar thing to Jabe with Liz 10
where she knows more about the doctor's past.
She's kind of more of an authority figure, more of a figure of
legend where she can bounce off with him on his level, whereas Amy
pairs off with instead of a working class woman, a little girl
which I guess sums up the difference between Moffatt and Davies.
Absolutely So I think it's really instructive and illustrative of
what's to come and whether that's for ill or for good, I think, you
know, the listener can can decide, but it's really very much a
mission statement right from the start.
And I think, yeah, Beast Below does so much heavy lifting in terms
of setting up the tone for the era to come.
I do remember at the time, um, this episode came in for some
criticism because it's a lot more straightforward and linear than
we had expected from Stephen Moffatt.
And I just remember thinking when it was announced he was going to
take over.
It's like, okay, he's going to be doing 6 or 7 episodes a year.
They're not all going to be the girl in the fireplace or silence
in the library.
He's going to occasionally do those things he's famous for.
But when you have to write 6 episodes a year.
Some of them have to be a straightforward action adventure that if
someone only tunes in that week, they can sink their teeth into.
And I think this is a really good example of Moffatt doing a
straightforward narrative that is still involving and has good
characters.
Except, though, the idea of the beast below changes, like we're
wrong about initially what we think the beast below might mean.
Um, and, um, we get the sort of very moffity things like the fact
that Liz 10 has been raining for 100s of years and the doc is able
to work that out.
And the sequence around Amy's loss of memory as well.
So it still does have some moffty things in it, I think.
I mean, that memory sequences.
He literally just mined that the next season for an entire
monster.
It's the same exact beats as any silence scene ever.
I actually found it really interesting that he's not playing as
much on his reputation for like puzzle work plots, but he's still
very much going for the horror that he was famous for early on.
Like, you wouldn't know him as a sitcom writer from this at all, or
from any of his previous stories really, except maybe blink.
Like, the whole opening sequence with like the ominous kid rhyme
and all that and like the elevator door opening up to hell.
It doesn't make any logical sense that any of this is happening.
It's just there because it's creepy.
Yeah.
It is astonishing what lengths he has to go to to rope that scene
into what's actually going on.
So it turns out we feed naughty children to the beast, but it
refuses to eat them or something.
But we keep feeding them anyway, damn it.
It'll have to know these days. yeah exactly.
It's like, oh yes, it doesn't hate the children.
Then why are you still sending the children down there?
Oh, you know, it's funny.
Look, we built we built the fake floor in the lifts.
We've got to use it for something.
Are we meant to not send the children down there?
I guess it also makes a difference from even future UK governments
not wanting to feed children. to a beast below, so maybe there's
some sort of prescience there as well.
I thought they didn't want to feed children full start.
I mean, that's the thing.
In the mouth of the beast, you have sort of half cabbages in there
which is exactly what they're sending out to children right now.
Half a cabbage and a can of tuna emptied into a plastic cup with
cling wrap over the top.
And I'm not exaggerating for effect.
No, no.
I think in general, the politics of this aged very well.
I mean, I think also Moffatt recycles the politics for this a lot
across his era.
I think, in fact, there's another story later on in his era.
He basically minds beat for beat in terms of the allegories here
but I think it aged very well and every time I watch it, I think
oh damn, this hits far too close to home.
It's funny, isn't it?
Because you don't actually think of Moffat as a political writer
in the same way that Davies is.
The end of the world has rich people partying while the world is
destroyed and an insurance scam and the doctor sort of firing off
a few snide comments about people being rich or people being
important.
And you've got a working class doctor here where, you know, Matt
Smith is very much a posh young man.
But the politics is clever in the sense that it's it's quite
general.
So, what I think of is the savages, um, where there's no
particular oppressive system that it is satirising, although there
is some sort of race stuff around the original conception of it
but that doesn't really kind of make it a screen.
It is just the doctor's joy at smashing an oppressive system.
And his door belittling dodo.
Well, yeah, we all love that.
Yeah, I was going to say, Kevin, you've got something to say on
the savage.
Not a fan.
But here, the idea that all of us live lives where we benefit from
the emiseration of other people, and we prefer not to think about
that, and we continue to be complicit in perpetuating the systems
that enable that.
I think that's stronger and fiercer satire than, you know, even
Planet of the Oud or something like that.
I entirely agree.
I absolutely think you're right.
So I think this is actually one of Moffat's most brazenly
political stories in the way that it absolutely points to that
dark heart of Britain's colonialist past, and the doctor sort of
stands against that.
He says, this is what I do every day.
We're bringing down the government.
Hello, Andrew Hartwell.
Oh my god, yeah.
Absolutely a mission statement.
And, you know, we'll talk about perhaps the choice and the
resolution and significance of that.
But, you know, what's really telling is that there's this moment
where the doctor says the cry of the magabtra, uh, or the, uh, the
giant space whale, um, can't be heard to, to, um, in the range of
human hearing, but with the sonic screwdriver.
Yeah, so I was at the same time.
Yeah.
With this Planet of the Earth.
Yeah, absolutely. does exactly the same trick and we cannot stand
that noise even for a moment.
But that is, if you like, I think, allegorical for essentially the
cry of everyone who's been, you know, dispossessed and died in the
name of the empire.
I think it's a hugely, and, you know, very strongly political
story, wrapped up in a very fairy tale kind of, um, uh, rapping, I
think.
So, um, yeah, there is definitely a hugely political aspect of
this.
And I just want to say I have a pet theory that I don't think
Moffatt even realises he does this, but he recycles this story
wholesale as an allegory in the Zygon 2 parter.
Oh.
There's the same recycling of the memories being erased for the
cyclical oppression being perpetuated.
There's the same series of buttons to make decisions.
Yeah.
He's very much going back to the same minefield, but I think it
works a lot better here than it does when he tries to force it
into our present moment with refugee politics and things.
Yeah, the fact that this is so allegorical in the sense that it is
in a sort of fantasy world where things stand for things.
And so you get to see a version of voting that's just boiled down
to the basic decision, which is, um, you protest or you forget, you
know, that's, so what he's saying and it's explicit in the
dialogue, isn't it?
We do this every 5 years.
We go into a booth and we make this choice and we basically all
say forget.
Remember the threshold is one%.
And what a great binary that is.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's not just you vote for the right people or the wrong people. is
you are actively making a choice to stand up against things or
you're letting them happen.
That's the message we all need a lot more of.
Look how it resolves, right?
Because there's actually not 2 choices, but the 3 that the doctor
accounts out.
And then there's actually a 4th and this is almost like the 4th
act, if you like, of the story.
And that is that there's always a better way.
We might get into this later on, I think.
But isn't it telling that it's the companion who alerts the doctor
to that better way?
And it's companion again that we'll see, I guess, in the 50s, which
does exactly the same thing, that it's not just that we have these
2 choices and it's the case of choosing between the lesser of 2
evils.
There's always a better way to do things.
I mean, but that's an absolute moffet thing to do, isn't it?
We're telling a particular type of story and then we say, no, this
isn't good enough.
Not this world or this system of oppression or these villains or
whatever aren't good enough, but this story isn't good enough.
This story has to end a different way.
And so we're going to find a way of making it do that.
And 0 my god, how bleak would it have been if the doctor did
euthanize a space whale?
Yeah, yeah.
I was like an early teenager watching this.
I was like, 0 man, that is dark.
And I believe they were going to go for it at the time.
I do remember at the time someone pointing out, it's like, okay
okay.
Yeah, the doctor's being really cruel here, but please keep in
mind, this is the same day as the end of time for him.
He has not had enough.
It needs to go have a sleep.
It's probably a little bit.
I'd be very cranky after that much, John Sam.
Wow.
He's probably still got a little bit of like Timothy Dalton spit
on.
We all do.
Oh, please.
Well, I guess he's got a whale on top of that now.
And can I just say the sound effect during the vomiting sequence
with the whale?
I forgot how good they were.
I was bursting out loud.
Oh, because we come away, we cut away, don't we?
To the exterior, to an exterior shot of the ship and hear the sort
of massive bathing sound.
I have to say that, you know, we're talking about the scene where
the doctor is about to put the whale to sleep.
And the, the amazing thing about that is the performance in the
we're standing in a mouth scene where the doctor is super excited
and and that whole exchange about the next word being a bit of a
scary word and the word is tongue and like, like, it's so
unexpected and so brilliant.
It's so Moffin, he's so he's so clever with the dialogue.
And Matt is relishing it.
Like he's loving it and his doctor has been so enthusiastic and so
childlike.
You know, he spent 15 minutes last week talking to a child and
being like a child, that when he's forced to um, consider killing
the whale.
He shouts for the very 1st time.
And I think it's so striking.
It's almost a jump scare.
It's so, so good.
It's the 1st time you see how scary he can be.
I mean, this can be a scary doctor.
Yeah, look, I think he's super scary when he scares the attracti
off last week and just says basically wrong and his jaw is
clenched, but he absolutely underplays it.
But hearing him shout for the 1st time is really, really
shocking.
And I find myself actually getting a bit upset by it too.
Well, I, I find from the beg, from the very beginning of the story
he's, he's got an unpleasant streak to him.
And I don't think it's an oversight.
I think it's a conscious choice.
When he says to Amy, look, go follow Mandy and she's like, why do
I have to do that?
And he just turns through and says, it's this or Ledworth.
It's basically stalk this child to get information for me or I'm
taking you home.
And again, at the end when he turns really nasty.
After he shouts, he says, After this, it's straight back home for
you.
But I think that's fair enough.
Like, I think that the after this, it's straight back home for you
like, that's absolutely the right thing because, um, she has
decided not only that she's going to allow this system of
oppression to be perpetuated, but that she's going to prevent the
doctor from overthrowing it out of some weird need to, like
protect the doctor.
I mean, that is so fascinating to unpack.
Why does she think he needs to be protected?
I wonder if it's almost like he's part of her childhood.
She wants to keep pure, even though there's no way in hell that's
staying.
That's interesting.
But don't you think that the only outcome apart from complicity
that she can imagine is killing everyone on Starship UK.
Yeah, she didn't want to make the, she didn't want him to make
that choice.
And even the doctor himself has said we shouldn't have come here
at one point because he can sort of see that moral dilemma
impending a bit.
I think.
I do think too, that, that I think that that, um, is this or
Ledworth, isn't quite as mean.
I don't read it as quite as mean as Brandon does, because I think
he's saying, this is the sort of thing we do.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah.
Well, the thing, you know, he says it in a jokey way, but it is
actually exactly the same threat as at the end.
Like if you just, if you strip out, if you strip out the emotion
because the emotion's very different, the words are the same.
It's almost as cruel as Rose would know, never mind.
I'll take you home in the morning.
Yeah, yeah.
And at least with that, the doctor partially had the excuse of
he's not really in this moment because he's reminiscing about
Rose.
But that being said, that's not a criticism.
I think that is a conscious choice on behalf of Stephen Moffatt
who is hinting, basically, you know, that in 18 months from now, we
are going to get the doctor shouting Colonel Runaway.
Yeah, you know, which is an amazing moment.
I think it's also vital to how Amy's developing here because she's
grown up with the idea of the doctor, but never really known the
reality.
This whole episode is her sort of sounding out what her
relationship is.
She follows the orders to investigate Mandy because she still sort
of feels like she owes it to him.
She's still in a place where she's kind of, His assistant.
I'm your new assistant.
But over the course of the episode, she starts to take charge more
to the point where, yeah, she makes a big screw up with the voting
but she's starting to make these decisions for herself until at
the end she can call the doctor out and make a better choice.
And that's a really cool arc to have within the space of an
episode.
And I think Kevin, it's essential because what we see with Amy is
that she can't see the world except for that, you know, that
dilemma, which is essentially Dostoevsky's dilemma in the brothers
cameras of, right?
This idea that you can have a utopia, but it comes at the expense
of torturing an innocent life.
And it's, that whole edifice is is founded on the unavenged tears
of that, of that innocent.
That's the only thing that she can think of until she steps back
and she sees the space well, and she sees the doctor for what they
actually are, and she's, uh, you know, her horizons have been
expanded essentially, and she becomes the companion in that, in
that instance, um, which is, uh, maybe a little bit problematic
but we see it a lot in Yoo Hoo, where the companion has to be
worthy of travelling with the doctor, and I think it's a real
growth moment for, for the character of Amy to solve that plot to
essentially unlock that 4th act, which is, no, no, there is a
better way, and this is, um, how it's done but maybe we'll talk
about that later.
I would like to talk about that later, because that's actually my
big problem with this episode.
Oh, I think I want to hear it now.
Okay, well, um, fighting words.
A few years ago and it's currently out of print for reasons I
won't go into here.
But I was part of a book called Hating to Love reassessing the 52
worst Doctor Who stories of all time.
And the beast below was in amongst them.
Now, I didn't, I know.
It was basically one per season and then a few more.
I didn't specifically ask for the beast below, but it was assigned
to me.
Victory of the dialect is right there.
The lodger is right there.
Victory of the Daleks and the Lodger were also both in the book.
Okay.
Well, at least I'm a little happier now.
But what it boils down to for me is, you're absolutely right
Stephen, in that in New Who.
There is this sort of thing where the companion has to prove their
worth.
So, you know, Rose swings on the chain because she won the silver
gymnastics medal.
The Bronx.
And we've never seen her gymnastic skills again. very upset about
that as a gymnast.
You know, Marfa has to scan and read to show that she's a
vampire.
Donna has the extra pendant and then helps the doctor wipe out the
pyra vials.
In all of those, their action is complimentary to what the doctor
is doing.
It's like the doctor is pretty much already doing that and is
stopped and can only get out of the situation. by what the
companion does.
Amy's action is in opposition to what the doctor's doing and Amy
is doing the right thing.
But the problem is instead of just showing Amy's intelligence.
And it's a very intelligent moment because we get one of the
better sort of Moffat moments.
Moffatt does a lot of moments where he sort of has lines from the
show replay inside a character's head as they figure something out
that works really well here.
It's a really intelligent moment.
I feel it is heavily undermined by the fact that it's not so much
Amy's being really smart.
It's that the doctor's being really stupid.
Uh, I'm not sure about that though.
How does he doesn't have the information, does he or does he?
Yeah, I don't, I, I thought it, he was, I mean, like I said, I
totally bought that.
The euthanasia was the best option to do at the time.
I thought that was a very heavy dilemma and then, I mean, Amy only
gets to the point she does because she's been observing how the
doctor acts the whole episode.
He can't really observe himself.
And he also isn't really looking over at the whale cuddling with
kids.
Is a bit busy.
Well, that is exactly it too, because one of the things about that
resolution is it's a bit laboured, like we are told it about 5
times or something in, you know, succession.
But the doctor doesn't realise it.
Like, even though for us, all of that stuff about being old and
lonely and kind and the last of your kind, like, you know, the
camera is on the doctor when she actually delivers that line.
We know that she's talking about the doctor, but the doctor
doesn't get it.
And it's because, you know, maybe he is being stupid, but he's not
being stupid about the situation.
He's just not recognising his own behaviour.
Remember when he says to Amy what he does, which is we're just
observers, all of that sort of thing.
We don't interfere.
Um, you know, I'll be here staying out of trouble.
He gives her a completely false idea of what he does.
And of course, the 1st action that he takes is to come for a
crying child.
And the montage that we see Amy C in the voting booth has crying
children all the way through it.
Um, and so she makes that link before he does, but it's because
she isn't him, and she has learned about him this episode, and
it's that knowledge that enables her to work out what the uh, the
alternative is.
I think Davies and Moffatt both kind of subscribe to the idea that
the companion is necessary, not just for what they're bringing
themselves, but how they can observe the doctor and call out the
doctor in a way that the doctor can never possibly do alone.
Like, that's why they're always saying, don't travel alone.
And that's also something I think we need more of right now.
Absolutely, and see the humanity in him as well.
So, I mean, yes, it's a massively heavy metaphor and I think
that's probably the closest that you could criticise the
resolution for, but you know what?
This isn't just a show for now, self-aware adults, who could never
quite allow themselves to grow out of a silly old television
family show because a huge part of why we never actually grew out
of that, that television show is that same kind of morality play
message.
We loved when we were 10 and we were watching Genesis of the
Daleks or the 5 doctors or even a planet of the Daleks, for
heaven's sake.
Like, this is the doctor being shown what the doctor can do and B
by the companion.
And I think, I think that's great.
And the metaphor is massively heavy, yes, but it's not just us
watching.
It's also the, you know, the 12 year old girl who's who's Amy's
companion in this story also watching, and I think that's, That's
actually fair enough I feel.
You know, the scene where Amy learns that the doctor's the last of
his kind and she's told by him about the time war.
And I just wanted to note how superbly Matt plays that, the
decision to throw it away and to not, you know, bad day.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um, rather than to do the sort of David Tennant trembling lower
lip and, you know, moist eyes.
Yeah.
And can I just say he and Karen Gillan are both on fire here.
I mean, it's very early in their run.
I know it's not the 1st thing they film, but it's one of the 1st
things we saw of them.
They have so much chemistry already.
You can already feel their dynamic feels lived in, and they're
already making a lot of really clever choices like that.
I absolutely adore them.
I, there, I mean, I was like a teenager watching them.
They are the ones that own my heart and I was instantly swept back
into that.
It's interesting to hear you say that, Kevin, because for me, Matt
Smith is still probably my favourite doctor of the new series
doctors.
As I've discussed with you in the past, Kevin, and I think with
all of you separately, there are things this era does that I think
twice about, but never about Matt Smith.
And I feel like he settles into the role the quickest since
Sylvester McCoy.
Oh, the 1st thing that he films, and we'll get to this in a couple
of weeks, is the scene on the beach with River and he nails it
instantly.
Just from the get go, he is absolutely perfect.
And I, I agree with you, Kevin.
I think both of these 2 leads are really incredible and they work
really well together.
And then when Arthur joins them.
Um, you know, it's 3 attractive young people who all really like
one another, and I just think the interplay between them, and the
relationships among them are super interesting.
Like, I think they're an absolutely superb Tartist team.
Yeah, I think it's something Russell tries to go for with the 10th
Dr. Rose and Mickey in the 10th doctor and Rose are sort of
bouncing around the room and Mickey's just there occasionally
saying, okay, you're going to come down to the floor now, but it
doesn't work because Russell's sort of encouraging us to laugh at
Mickey, whereas when Rory comes on, we're actually kind of with
Rory, when he's saying to them, all right, calm down.
It's just Venice.
They're just fish lobsters.
But yeah, here, the 2 of them together.
Like, Amy, Amy is a character I sometimes have problems with, but
I do not fault Karen Gillen for that.
I think Karen Gillen is a spectacular actress and the more I see
her in, the more variety I see her do in other things makes me
appreciate Amy all the more because much like Matt Smith, she's
doing very complex things in very small moments, like, like the
bit in, in the voting booth when she's watching, you know
Christopher Hamilton bid me tell her that something bad is going
to.
I thought it was Jeremy Core, but...
It so does look...
Call that Hamilton bitch.
What have we done?
Um, I should I should mention, I was living in the UK when this
series went out and they were coming up to a general election
which, of course, is where David Cameron got in because he looked
better in a suit than Gordon Brown.
It's like, no, really, that was the reason.
But you did have this feeling in the UK.
You know, Tony Blair had quit and was immensely popular.
And I'm just going to leave that statement there because we could
do a whole hour of Tony Blair.
Um, But he was immensely popular and Gordon Brown was a lot more
sort of a workaday politician.
He wasn't massively charismatic, but he was very intelligent, very
erudite.
Whereas David Cameron comes along and is massively charismatic. you
know, goes on to win the election and Moffatt pressages that.
He pressages Brexit.
Yeah.
Um, you know, he presides austerity.
He press Scottish independence.
Because that was a that was a neophyte idea in terms of the
referendum.
Obviously, the idea has been around for many 100s of years.
But it wasn't until 2014 that the 1st referendum happened and now
we've probably got another one coming.
And I think much like when Russell does political commentary, you
sort of go, oh, he's kind of seeing a bit into the future with
this when you come back 5 years later.
I think Moffatt was doing exactly the same thing.
I think I think it is commentary.
You might be accidental, and it does weirdly presage all of those
things, as you say, Brendan, you know, it's Starship UK. that does
a lot of the heavy lifting, though.
It's done through iconography and imagery.
It's Starship UK minor scholar and really who can blame them.
But look at it.
It's like a Gothic lashed up of interconnecting wires.
It's kind of like what Gotham City might have looked like if it
was a, if it was Britain's 2nd city and not Birmingham.
Um, you've got the distinct and decaying buildings.
You know, it's all a bit crap.
The 2nd R in Surrey is on the Fritz.
Yes.
The 1st thing that we see.
The production design is fantastic, though.
I mean, you don't really get all the details as developed as I
feel like they must have been in Moffatt's head, like the smilers
the winders, all that exposition dialogue is just cut, cut, cut
but the details feel really realised.
It feels like he gave them quite a lot of notes.
And I love the, the tube signs for the elevator. cracks me up.
And all the BBC sort of stuff, you know, in that explanatory video
and things.
And in fact, that's what's really interesting about it is it leans
so heavily into sort of mid-20th century sort of British
iconography, which again is magpie electrical.
Well, yes, exactly.
And it's going to be a feature of next week's episode as well.
So it revels in that.
You know, like it seems to be celebrating it.
There's the monarchy.
The thing that makes Great Britain, even today, a sort of fairy
tale kingdom is that it's a kingdom, you know, and there's castles
and things like that and the queen.
But it portrays that as being fundamentally rotten and based upon
oppression and emiseration.
Like what looks like it's going to be a celebration of Britishness
in the way that, you know, Russell's 1st series of Doctor Who is.
But here it's a celebration of Britishness that's about how
fundamentally rotten it all is.
But what is it redeemed by Nathan, right?
And that the heart of this is a sort of problematic thing that
we'll definitely see next week, which is the positioning of the
doctorate as close to the heart of that mythical kingdom of the
United Kingdom?
And it's also obviously the way in which the doctor becomes a myth
and the store has become about the doctor being a myth in Moffat's
era as well.
You know, Liz Ten says, I was brought up on stories of you.
My whole family was.
And it's this idea that again, it's revisited in the resolution
where the doctor, as a promise, is so strong and so beneficent
that he is essentially what is at the heart of what is good about
Britain, and that's to say that the doctor is the best of us, and
that is kind of the role that the doctor has in this story, but
also I think in the Moffatt years to come.
And 0 my goodness, that moment where he talks about how he would
have to give up his name.
Yeah.
We see that next, right?
Well, that's the thing.
There's 2 moments in this that press out, the day of the doctor
and one of them is that.
And the other one is when the doctor is talking about being the
last time, Lord.
And he said, you know, a lot of people died, and I will never
forget that.
And we get to the day of the doctor and he can't remember how many
children there were.
He's the man who forgets.
Well, in fact, it's really good, isn't it, that what Moffatt does
in that scene with Tennant in Day of the Doctor is he just takes
the doctor's performances and the way that they talk about the
time war and develops them into a proper character difference
between them.
Um, you know, like interrogates the way that he's had Matt doing
that all along.
And like Matt was never going to kind of be all kind of maudlin
and weepy and stuff because that's not his performance.
But, uh, you know, Moffatt looks at that difference and and spend
some time interrogating it.
I think it's really incredibly interesting.
So, if we're talking about the best of Britain, All right, were
you going to also talk about what might be the worst of Britain, or
might be more complicated with Liz 10.
I think she's really terrific Fabulous.
I love how she's wonderful.
I love her little like disgust when she shakes Amy's hand and then
gets vomit all over it.
No, she goes nice hair, shame about the sick.
It's...
She's also like fundamentally corrupt, but she's also kind of
corrupting the British monarchy by being black, which is a rare
thing in Moffatt's early seasons of having any non-white people at
all.
It's complicated.
That's that's another moment.
Moffat presages from the real world, a person of coa as a member
of the royal family. as we would eventually, sadly, briefly have
with Meghan Markle, but who can blame her and Harry, frankly?
And I wish them all the happiness of the world.
But the thing is, I remember at the time you can imagine how
Galafre Base reacted to that.
I believe the beast below section was closed for 12 hours for
people to cool off.
Wow.
Whereas me, I'm just going, 0 my god, that's Alison from Scream of
the Shelker.
Yeah. is so good.
She deserves another girl at being a companion, honestly.
I think what's interesting is that her dilemma is the same as
ours.
You know, like it's essentially parallel, that even though she...
Look, she is depicted as having proper concern for her people, and
what she thinks she's doing is getting to the bottom of some
terrible thing that's infesting the ship.
And then she discovers, uh, just like Amy discovers that it's her
that she's been doing this all along because she's been making
exactly the same decision as all of her people.
Um, So, I think she is depicted as being corrupt, but I don't
think she's depicted as being any more corrupt than any of the
rest of us.
But I think maybe that's the difference.
She might not be any more corrupt than the rest of us, but she's
in a position of power where how it impacts her impacts all of
us.
Although the setup does give us much more power than we normally
do in a democracy, remember, because the threshold for protest is
one%.
If one% of the people on Starship UK protest, the whole thing
falls down.
They also kill literally every protester, which is slightly more
than we do.
That's true.
Whose idea was it to kill every protester anyway?
I really want to know.
Was that her idea?
Yeah, yeah, it sounds like that's probably one of the things that
the story doesn't want us to think about too carefully.
And I do...
Maybe it's just an extrapolation of what happened post-Brexit many
many centuries later.
I think probably that because he wanted to make the monster a
monster and wanted the feeding tube scene and all of that, that
he's probably introduced elements into the story that don't quite
work with the allegory.
Yeah, no, this story totally doesn't hold together and you can see
why they cut down stuff like telling us what a winder is and why
that's different from a smiler.
Nobody cares.
The allegory is more interesting than the details.
Exactly.
Absolutely And that's, again, the mythic quality, the mythics
fairy tale storytelling of Moth.
It's associative logic, it's not necessarily A to B to C in terms
of the plot points and I'm all here for it.
I love it.
Can I just go back to Liston really quickly, though?
Yeah.
Has she got possibly the greatest line for a, you know, a sort of
a cameo character in, I'm the bloody queen mate.
Basically, I rule.
That's a wonderful creation.
I need to see that in a drag performance.
And then you cut to the doctor, Amy, and Mandy, and they're
kneeling before her. as she raises her weapon in the air.
Matt Smith is looking at her like Pat Trouton was looking at Mary
Peach.
Let's be honest.
I think Stephen Moffat probably was too.
This is the beginning of horny Matt Smith.
This is the beginning of the horny 11th doctor, but he doesn't
quite know what that means.
Yes.
That's why I don't hate it.
The fact that is Matt Smith plays sexuality so awkwardly, like he
literally has no idea what it is.
The fact that he often does display sexuality is less
uncomfortable because of that.
Yes, yes.
Yeah, I mean, this is something that FDA is going to be discussing
over the next 2 years or so over and over again, I think, because
I...
Well, the big, there is a big problem, I think, in the Moffat era
and it does have to do with sex and sexuality and gender roles and
stuff like that.
Um, but it's not quite there yet.
I think it'd be a lot worse with David Tennant too, because David
Tennant would play it sincerely.
He'd play it very, very horny and it would be it would be awful.
Well, he's not, he's quite sexually confident.
I think.
And we did come to the conclusion by the end of the specials that
he was probably one season away from just being Austin Powers.
Also with Liz 10, I find it interesting.
She has a line where she says, my government is lying to me, but
we never see a prime minister, we never see a minister.
It seems like the UK has gone back to an absolute monarchy where
the queen actually rules and has a say in what's happening.
It's basically like QAnon.
You've got all powerful monarch fighting the deep state.
And there's a button chicken breast that gets rid of all the
data.
I think, though, that the government is represented essentially by
is his name Hawthorne?
Yeah, who's the theme of the headmaster?
Yeah.
And just because he reads like, you know, he's a white guy, a
certain age, you know, glasses, posh accent, all of that sort of
thing.
And he's always sort of sorrowfully explaining something to the to
the queen.
He does read, I think, a little bit like the Prime Minister.
I think again, because the setting is so, um, fantastical and
abstract and stuff.
You know, we don't have government and police.
We've got Hawthorne and the Winders and the, and the smilers and
things that, that are representing sort of state violence and
coercive state power, because that's something that doesn't get
developed a lot.
The doctor talks about this being a police state.
And I'm not quite sure where that fits in.
There's a very, very clever scene.
Where the doctor deduces from the fact that Mandy is crying
silently and everyone's not paying any attention to her that this
is a police state.
He goes straight from that thing to Britain is politically rotten
and it's a police state.
And does it have to be a police state because, um, because the
system is founded on oppression to such a degree that if that's
discovered, you know, there's the government's in a precarious
situation.
Or is it an austerity thing?
Is it that they've had to go back to basics, bicycles and wind up
lamps and stuff?
Um, Is that the reason there's a police state?
I think it's the former because it's a very two-faced thing.
It's trying to create that facade that all of Starship UK is built
on where everything's fine.
Nothing's going wrong, but the head turns around and you see the
truth.
I think, actually, a good representation of the cops in general
you know, because there's always that image of the smiling
neighbourhood cop who will help you out and star on Brooklyn 99 or
whatever.
But really, they're all the ugly, uh, fellas on the other side of
the head.
I think that's a that's a good point.
I'm probably of the opinion, though, that it's, um, both of them
like it doesn't have to be one or the other.
I think it can be the fact that it is austerity on this ship is
you know, in a precarious state, but also that it is the
inevitable byproduct of, of an oppressive tyranny, you know.
Um, Terence Harteman, the demon headmasters effectively her
chamberlain, and it's an absolute monarchy.
I'm the bloody queen mate. basically our rule.
Um, and it's more akin then to maybe to Liz the 1st England rather
than the 2nd, but it's a good.
Yeah, it's a fair point.
I take yours as well.
I'd be terribly hopeful that after this, Liz does set up like an
actual government, or better yet, steps aside.
She's been ruling for 100s of years.
She can, she can get some me time now.
She's back in episode 12 though.
She's back in episode 12 in her.
Well, maybe she's just a curator and that's why she's in the...
She'd be great at curating.
They did they did actually film, uh, Sophie Orkinito's bits for
that episode.
Oh, of course.
But with someone standing in for Alex Kingston.
And then when they film the Alex Kingston bit, say it's someone
standing in for Sophie Okinido.
Speaking of reshoots, this episode had quite a few, and you know
how the 1st production block of Russell series with Keith Boke is
kind of shrouded in secrecy and we don't know exactly what went
wrong.
I'll say for a rumour.
That seems to be the block here because Andrew Gunn is not invited
back to direction again.
No, he does this and victory for Daleks.
Victory of the Daleks.
And I remember this as it happened in the UK.
Victory of the Daleks 2 weeks before it was broadcast, had a 65
minute slot.
Oh, heavens.
And about 10 days before broadcast, it was shortened to 45.
Wow.
And there's been, you know, that is a nightmare.
And, you know, it's a bit like when the Rand is crying, because
her boyfriend bought it, you know, the rumour is in the 65 minute
cut, there was like 10 minutes of their relationship in there.
And they're just like, okay, cut it out.
The last line still makes sense.
There's a fair bit cut out here, including the scene where the
doctor discovers that none of the things are connected.
That was completely reshot and that's not Sophie Okinido.
Oh okay.
Oh, wow.
That is her standing because she wasn't available for the
research.
The reshoots were either directed by Andrew Smith.
He did some of them, who did Flesh and Stone, Angels.
Fantastic job.
Yeah.
But also, a lot of the reshoots were done by Eros Lynn.
Ah, really?
because they needed someone to get it done quickly.
Um, and particularly um, his big edition because this wasn't
initially in the script.
So Andrew Gunn couldn't have shot it.
Um, the big edition for Eros Lynn is that scene where they're
staring out the window at the end.
Oh, my God.
Which he shot originally.
Imagine this episode without that.
That was beautiful.
Most of the dialogue had been shot in the castle setting because
they did use a real castle for the Tower of London. which is a
dungeon.
So again, you get that duality, the Tower of London is the lowest
part of the city.
But yeah, I think it was sort of a discussion between Steven and
Eros of actually, how about we put a bit of time in?
Oh, okay, if we're going to put a bit of time in between these
scenes, we can move the location.
How about we end on something really spectacular?
And it really ties in back to her looking at the stars at the
story.
It gives it a really cohesive feeling.
That's interesting though, because what I'd heard was that the
original drafts that had things cut out over, I don't know, someone
was claiming to me that they were tighter and more cohesive, but
losing stuff like that, I think I might be happy with the finished
version.
I absolutely adore that final scene and just the nature of the
reconciliation, you know, just how warm it is and how absolutely
necessary that is given how brutal a doctor is, you know, in his
reaction to Amy's vote.
You absolutely needed it.
And they're both kind of the same height, they're both the same
age.
It's different, that relationship.
And I don't know if it's in the writing or just if it is in the
physicality of the actors, but they seem to me to be friends.
Um, in that scene at least.
They seem to me to be friends and equals in a way that we haven't
really properly seen before.
And I think part of that is because Matt Smith, with, with David
Tennant, Tennant's doctor has a mask and that mask is, I'm happy
all the time and I'm fine all the time.
Matt Smith's mask is kind of the other way around.
His mask is, I don't want to show you I'm angry, but any other
emotion is going to be fully on my face.
So when he hugs Amy at the end, and so we get the over the
shoulder shot of her and she's doing a very human thing of, oh, I'm
going to screw up my eyes so I don't cry.
And then we cut to the doctor and the doctor is also screwing up
his eyes so he doesn't cry.
And that's what gets to me in that scene because, you know, it's
kind of part of a Doctor Who companion write a passage in the new
series that the 1st big injustice they come across, it's going to
bring them to tears, you know?
And so we expect that from maybe, but to see it from the doctor. is
incredibly affecting and I think Matt and Karen both play that
scene perfectly.
I absolutely agree with you.
If we had have had that scene straight off the back of Amy's
solution and it's in a dark dungeon.
It still would have been fine, and I'm sure they performed it
perfectly well, but having a bit of a breather for us to get over
that initial thing, and then come back with that emotion, and they
both underplay it beautifully.
Like, you know, imagine Tennant.
You could have killed everyone on this ship, governor.
Apples and pears, apples.
How do we feel about that resolution at the end and the effect
that it has on the allegory?
Because what we've discovered is that the Star Whale had come to
help.
And they had no need to sort of trap and torture it.
Now that they've spent 100s of years of trapping and torturing it
and then they stop and then it's kind of okay with that.
Does anyone else have a problem with that?
I mean, it's simplistic.
But it's also a very simple allegory.
I think saying stop oppressing people.
People want to contribute to each other without being oppressed is
a fair message.
And I think it does a bit of legwork to try to justify that in
context by saying the, um, Star Whale is the last of its kind and
it really just wants to do one more altruistic thing.
I'm with you on that, Kevin.
And I think it's, it's again, it's the um, tying of the space fell
to the doctor, not necessarily to the oppressed people, which it
probably, um, is where it falls flat, um, for yourself, Nathan.
Because it, it, to me, it is no different to the scene of, you
know, the talk doctor on Clara in the Tartars where it says, you
know, you betrayed my trust, you betrayed our friendship, you
betrayed, um, everything I ever stood for.
Do you think I care for you so little that betraying me would make
a difference.
I think that's uh, that's what it refers to.
That's the nature of the doctor.
Someone so old, so kind.
And so ultimately forgiving.
I think you're exactly right, Stephen, because, you know, you go
back, even in the classic series, the 5th doctor, overtly states, I
sometimes wonder why I care for the species of this stupid little
planet so much.
And it's like no matter how many times we screw up, the doctor is
still going to come through and try and save us.
And in a way that culminates in Voyage of the Damned, when David
Tennant became Jesus.
Actually, twice, you know, twice in a row.
The last of the time towards he becomes Jesus.
And then the sound of, and the thing is, people complained.
They headed up in a church.
Yeah, the stained glass.
It was very nice stained glass.
Yes.
I remember some very silly religious groups complained when Voyage
of the Damn went out.
It's like, this has Jesus iconography, and Russell T. Xavier's
response was basically, did you not see last of the time?
In my mind, there's 2 ways to sort of justify why the Space World
will continue to help.
And one of them, as you say, Stephen, is, it's like the doctor and
the doctor will always help, regardless of how crap we are
sometimes.
The other one is that this is an alien so different in its
perceptions of the universe that we can't ascribe our own morality
to it and what a human would do it.
Because I was sitting here thinking, you know, the jokey way to
express that is, well, it's a giant goldfish.
It doesn't remember.
It doesn't remember the last 200 years.
But, but moreover, if this is a creature that's gone, I am going
to dedicate my existence to carrying 60000000 people throughout
space for an indeterminate period of time.
It's it's like one of the great old ones.
It doesn't, it doesn't have our thought process.
Yeah, but if you're thinking about this in terms of like a
allegory to oppressed people, it does have shortcomings.
There's not no talking preparations or anything.
We don't even know if they're going to take that damn room out of
its head.
Yeah, it's not...
I actually think too, it is in a children's story, it's the
misunderstood monster, you know, it's the monster that everyone's
scared of that we discover is friendly all along.
And so it is operating, as you were saying before, Stephen, on
story logic or associative logic rather than actual logic.
And so the monster doesn't bear any grudges, um, because it is, you
know, a misunderstood.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I agree with you, Kevin, that it does have, it's where the
kind of, um, the allegory breaks down a little bit and and instead
the logic of a fairy tale takes over.
The allegory goes on a bit of holiday.
And the breaking down is no worse than like, uh, yeah, the Zygons
can fit in, but they've got to conform to humanity for all
eternity.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No worse than that.
I wonder if there's an allegory in Doctor Who that doesn't fall
down in some way because it's, you know, it's hard to do a
perfectly constructed allegory.
I'd say almost impossible without, you know, making it satire.
Um, And as allegories go.
This is pretty complete.
Yeah.
Like, I know I complained about the ending before, but it that's
that's a minor thing.
Like me having to write that essay in hating to love, as I say, was
because I was assigned it.
And so I had to watch it looking for what people were complaining
about.
Stephen Moffat has named this story as his biggest regret. that it
didn't come off the way he wanted it to.
And I think he's being really too harsh on himself because it's
like, I think really it achieves 90% of what it's set out to do
and a lot of Dog 2 stories don't do that.
It's a personal favourite of mine.
I absolutely adore.
I love Moffat when it goes political.
I like oxygen a great deal as well.
But oxygen has that, you know, is very definitely got capitalism
as its target.
Whereas this is about oppression more generally, and you can tie
it down as you were before, Stephen, to the British Empire or the
Tories or austerity or whatever.
But I think it's it's a more general truth.
And I really like that.
You talked about Brothers Karamazov before, but the thing it
reminded me most of was Ursula Le Guin's story, the ones who walk
away from Omelus.
Do any of you know that?
No, I don't.
I know.
I haven't read that one.
It's a very short story.
And it's beautiful.
I can't give it justice in my description of it here, and I'll try
and find a copy online and put it in the show notes.
Um, but it posits a world where a beautiful sort of fantasy
kingdom that's hugely prosperous, but everyone is aware that the
prosperity of the kingdom is contingent entirely on the repeated
um, imiseration of a small child.
And it's just heartbreaking to read.
And it presents you with that choice.
Do you go back and join the kingdom and continue to be complicit
in the emiseration of this child or do you walk away?
Um, it's absolutely worth reading.
And I would be surprised if Moffatt wasn't aware of it, because
the parallels are really very strong.
Well, they listen, that's all we have time for this week.
We'll be back next week to find out what Great Britain's most
celebrated racist Prime Minister has been getting up to in victory
of the Daleks.
Can you narrow it down?
Well, the most racist one.
Can you narrow it down?
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts
and you can keep up with us at flights or entirety on Facebook, at
FDE Podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety
com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, and
Jody interterra.
Stephen, is there anything that you would like to plug?
Um, well, if you want to hear more of me, and I'm not sure if you
do, but if you do, head over to new to who podcast, uh, www
noodahoo.com, uh, also on Twitter at Utahoo podcast.
Brilliant.
And Kevin, where can people find you?
Uh, well, I am on Twitter at Scribble Script with 2 S's in the
middle because Scribbles, Script, and uh, I've been working on
some 12th doctor fan audios that are on YouTube.
I can't remember the exact username for it, but if you search 12th
doctor fan audios, Christmas alone, you'll get the 1st episode.
Also, I just co-wrote a book thing that I totally forgot about.
Um, A friend of mine, Lawrence and I, over the past like year or
so in pandemic, have just bounced ideas off to write a couple
trashy comedy plays.
Not for kids, but very fun.
They're called threesome, and you can find them on Amazon to
search threesome, Kevin Bernard and Lawrence Watts.
So, yeah, buy my book.
Bring it. put that in the show notes so people can go there.
All right.
So, until next time, may you always vote to protest.
Or if you're the queen, ma'am, to abdicate.
Thank you very much for listening and good night.
I'm abdicating right now.
Good night.
See you.
Good night.
That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Kevin
Bernard, Stephen from New to Who, and Brendan Jones, Themed Ranger
by Cameron Lamb.
This episode, Make a Better Choice, was recorded on the 24th of
January 2021 and released on the 21st of March.
The governance of the Western world would like to announce that to
reduce voter confusion in future elections, the protest option
will be removed.
We hope you continue to enjoy the guilt free exercise of your
democratic rights.
Do we have an out?
Has anyone got anything they'd like to say about the story that
they haven't already said?
I like that the Sonic screwdriver lit up like a flashlight with
the white little N.
I noticed that for the 1st time, this time.
The only other thing literally, and we've ticked off so much, which
is amazing to me in such a good chat, is, did anyone pick up on
the sort of Chris Nolan Memento vibes of the Liz 10 subplot?
It's that whole thing about where she's trying to uncover the
secrets that she herself created.
Yeah, yeah. and the clue is the mask.
And yeah, it's it sort of really put me in mind of that.
And also, um, part 4 rooftain of the Daleks.
You did it yourselves.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I have to ask, are there masks that really just fit on your face
like that?
I think if you're if you're super royal, you can afford, you know
the special adhesive porcelain that no one else has access to.
Yeah.
I did, I did also, I did also wonder watching it this time.
It's like, okay, we have a black monarch who can only go out in
public wearing a white mask.
But she is on all the stats.
That's the other line that I really like.
The reason that they've slowed to metabolism is it keeps her
looking like the stamps.
Yeah.
Like everyone knows what she looks like.
And to be fair, when she takes off the mask, like Mandy is so
pleased to see Her Majesty, the Queen.
Is she though?
She makes this like strange face at first, which I thought was
hilarious.
It's sort of like, what is going on?
Shock.
Something that was cut, an exchange I really liked between Liz 10
and Mandy is when they're on their way to rescue the doctor and
Amy from the space whale overflow tube.
And, um, there's sort of, and there's, there's a bit of chat there
of how she's tracking them.
Oh, I put a tracking device on him, blah, blah, blah.
And she says to Mandy, are you all right?
And Mandy says, no, no, I'm very scared.
And Liz 10 says, um, Excellent.
I like that.
She's like, excellent.
I don't like people who aren't scared.
Mandy's like, what do you mean?
I thought you'd like brave people.
And Liz 10 says, I'll put it another way.
I like people who are honest.
And that's why when they walk in.
She says, this is Mandy.
She's very brave.
Oh, that's cute.
It's cute.
And it's, you know, it's a shame we lost it.
But I do wonder if sort of Moffatt's early edits of these were
like, okay, let's chuck everything in and see what we get.
An hour and 15 minutes?
Okay, BBC, can we have an hour and 15?
No, no, don't shout.
Please don't shout at me.
Okay.
Can we get it down to 45?
Well, I think we have a tag, to be honest.
I'm going to do the do the closing things and I'll ask you to plug
and then thank you very much for listening a good night in the
same order.
Is that all right?