WEBVTT

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This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 17:42:12

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast consistently surprised that all this

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is what most people decided to vote for.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Stephen.

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And I'm Kevin.

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Well, it's the year 3290, and the sun itself has turned against us

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and so some of us have stayed behind on a space station to be

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eaten by wasps, while others are facing a still more terrible fate

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participation in the British political system.

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Will we be complicit or will we be the ones who walk away?

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Let's find out as we face the beast below.

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At least no one's getting infected by typhoid dodo in this

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episode.

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That's right.

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They got to face whatever McClintock candy burgers are, though.

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I mean, it's got to.

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So I guess this picks up immediately or more or less immediately

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after the 11th hour?

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There was that little minisode set between the two, right, where

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the doctor shoves Amy out the Tardis.

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Oh yes, that's right.

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That's right.

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Totally unnecessary.

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I'm glad they cut it But I mean, how beautiful is that opening?

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I mean, for one thing, we don't get voiceovers that often with the

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companions like 1st person just telling us about themselves, but

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just for that beautiful shot of Amy drifting in space, the doctor

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holding her leg.

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It's just so different, so fresh and I always get swept up by it.

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It is that fairy tale thing, isn't it?

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You know, she's flying, someone's holding her ankle.

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It's like Peter Pan or something.

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She's in her nightdress.

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There's the night sky.

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And so we get a 1st person narrative because for Moffatt.

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Everything's about telling stories.

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It's also wonderful that as you see on Doctor Who Confidential, as

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usual, to achieve their shot, they chunk Karen Gillen in a pool

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and say, look serene.

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Go on the water and look serene.

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We just need we just need the hair to act.

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You just look serene dear while you're holding your breath.

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I did actually wonder about that.

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But she doesn't look at all wet, so it's the scooty minister

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school of floating in space acting.

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Yeah, yeah.

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It is a beautiful, beautiful scene.

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It really is.

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I think, I mean, this is, if you, if you like, the Moffat version

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of the end of the world, and I think you alluded to that in the

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introduction there, Nathan, as well.

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And as such, as that sort of continuity free 2nd episode.

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It really does a lot to set the tone.

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And it is very much fairy tale in the sense that, you know, Russell

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um, gives the space aliens, but it also gives us a human heart.

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And at the end, you know, it's the doctor in rose eating chips in

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Trafalgar Square.

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But here it's, it's much more than that. something so different.

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We've got that sort of associative logic that sort of comes with

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that fairy tale sort of genre.

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And I'm all here for it.

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Like right from that 1st scene, um, that we have in the episode

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proper after the cold open, which I guess we'll talk about later

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but also that, that sort of final sequence where they're looking

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out over the starship UK through those giant windows, which I

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think, again, calls to mind end of the world, you know, the sort

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of giant windows looking out over the, over the earth.

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I think it's interesting you imagine like how much this owes to

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the end of the world because I was thinking structurally, it's got

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a lot the same, the way it splits the doctor and Amy into

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investigations.

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I mean, you've got sort of the similar thing to Jabe with Liz 10

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where she knows more about the doctor's past.

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She's kind of more of an authority figure, more of a figure of

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legend where she can bounce off with him on his level, whereas Amy

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pairs off with instead of a working class woman, a little girl

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which I guess sums up the difference between Moffatt and Davies.

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Absolutely So I think it's really instructive and illustrative of

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what's to come and whether that's for ill or for good, I think, you

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know, the listener can can decide, but it's really very much a

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mission statement right from the start.

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And I think, yeah, Beast Below does so much heavy lifting in terms

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of setting up the tone for the era to come.

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I do remember at the time, um, this episode came in for some

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criticism because it's a lot more straightforward and linear than

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we had expected from Stephen Moffatt.

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And I just remember thinking when it was announced he was going to

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take over.

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It's like, okay, he's going to be doing 6 or 7 episodes a year.

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They're not all going to be the girl in the fireplace or silence

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in the library.

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He's going to occasionally do those things he's famous for.

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But when you have to write 6 episodes a year.

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Some of them have to be a straightforward action adventure that if

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someone only tunes in that week, they can sink their teeth into.

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And I think this is a really good example of Moffatt doing a

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straightforward narrative that is still involving and has good

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characters.

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Except, though, the idea of the beast below changes, like we're

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wrong about initially what we think the beast below might mean.

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Um, and, um, we get the sort of very moffity things like the fact

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that Liz 10 has been raining for 100s of years and the doc is able

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to work that out.

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And the sequence around Amy's loss of memory as well.

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So it still does have some moffty things in it, I think.

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I mean, that memory sequences.

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He literally just mined that the next season for an entire

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monster.

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It's the same exact beats as any silence scene ever.

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I actually found it really interesting that he's not playing as

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much on his reputation for like puzzle work plots, but he's still

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very much going for the horror that he was famous for early on.

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Like, you wouldn't know him as a sitcom writer from this at all, or

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from any of his previous stories really, except maybe blink.

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Like, the whole opening sequence with like the ominous kid rhyme

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and all that and like the elevator door opening up to hell.

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It doesn't make any logical sense that any of this is happening.

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It's just there because it's creepy.

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Yeah.

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It is astonishing what lengths he has to go to to rope that scene

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into what's actually going on.

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So it turns out we feed naughty children to the beast, but it

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refuses to eat them or something.

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But we keep feeding them anyway, damn it.

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It'll have to know these days. yeah exactly.

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It's like, oh yes, it doesn't hate the children.

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Then why are you still sending the children down there?

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Oh, you know, it's funny.

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Look, we built we built the fake floor in the lifts.

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We've got to use it for something.

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Are we meant to not send the children down there?

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I guess it also makes a difference from even future UK governments

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not wanting to feed children. to a beast below, so maybe there's

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some sort of prescience there as well.

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I thought they didn't want to feed children full start.

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I mean, that's the thing.

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In the mouth of the beast, you have sort of half cabbages in there

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which is exactly what they're sending out to children right now.

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Half a cabbage and a can of tuna emptied into a plastic cup with

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cling wrap over the top.

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And I'm not exaggerating for effect.

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No, no.

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I think in general, the politics of this aged very well.

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I mean, I think also Moffatt recycles the politics for this a lot

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across his era.

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I think, in fact, there's another story later on in his era.

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He basically minds beat for beat in terms of the allegories here

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but I think it aged very well and every time I watch it, I think

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oh damn, this hits far too close to home.

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It's funny, isn't it?

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Because you don't actually think of Moffat as a political writer

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in the same way that Davies is.

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The end of the world has rich people partying while the world is

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destroyed and an insurance scam and the doctor sort of firing off

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a few snide comments about people being rich or people being

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important.

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And you've got a working class doctor here where, you know, Matt

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Smith is very much a posh young man.

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But the politics is clever in the sense that it's it's quite

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general.

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So, what I think of is the savages, um, where there's no

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particular oppressive system that it is satirising, although there

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is some sort of race stuff around the original conception of it

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but that doesn't really kind of make it a screen.

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It is just the doctor's joy at smashing an oppressive system.

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And his door belittling dodo.

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Well, yeah, we all love that.

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Yeah, I was going to say, Kevin, you've got something to say on

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the savage.

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Not a fan.

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But here, the idea that all of us live lives where we benefit from

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the emiseration of other people, and we prefer not to think about

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that, and we continue to be complicit in perpetuating the systems

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that enable that.

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I think that's stronger and fiercer satire than, you know, even

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Planet of the Oud or something like that.

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I entirely agree.

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I absolutely think you're right.

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So I think this is actually one of Moffat's most brazenly

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political stories in the way that it absolutely points to that

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dark heart of Britain's colonialist past, and the doctor sort of

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stands against that.

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He says, this is what I do every day.

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We're bringing down the government.

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Hello, Andrew Hartwell.

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Oh my god, yeah.

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Absolutely a mission statement.

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And, you know, we'll talk about perhaps the choice and the

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resolution and significance of that.

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But, you know, what's really telling is that there's this moment

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where the doctor says the cry of the magabtra, uh, or the, uh, the

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giant space whale, um, can't be heard to, to, um, in the range of

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human hearing, but with the sonic screwdriver.

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Yeah, so I was at the same time.

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Yeah.

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With this Planet of the Earth.

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Yeah, absolutely. does exactly the same trick and we cannot stand

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that noise even for a moment.

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But that is, if you like, I think, allegorical for essentially the

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cry of everyone who's been, you know, dispossessed and died in the

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name of the empire.

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I think it's a hugely, and, you know, very strongly political

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story, wrapped up in a very fairy tale kind of, um, uh, rapping, I

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think.

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So, um, yeah, there is definitely a hugely political aspect of

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this.

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And I just want to say I have a pet theory that I don't think

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Moffatt even realises he does this, but he recycles this story

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wholesale as an allegory in the Zygon 2 parter.

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Oh.

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There's the same recycling of the memories being erased for the

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cyclical oppression being perpetuated.

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There's the same series of buttons to make decisions.

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Yeah.

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He's very much going back to the same minefield, but I think it

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works a lot better here than it does when he tries to force it

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into our present moment with refugee politics and things.

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Yeah, the fact that this is so allegorical in the sense that it is

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in a sort of fantasy world where things stand for things.

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And so you get to see a version of voting that's just boiled down

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to the basic decision, which is, um, you protest or you forget, you

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know, that's, so what he's saying and it's explicit in the

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dialogue, isn't it?

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We do this every 5 years.

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We go into a booth and we make this choice and we basically all

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say forget.

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Remember the threshold is one%.

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And what a great binary that is.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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It's not just you vote for the right people or the wrong people. is

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you are actively making a choice to stand up against things or

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you're letting them happen.

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That's the message we all need a lot more of.

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Look how it resolves, right?

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Because there's actually not 2 choices, but the 3 that the doctor

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accounts out.

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And then there's actually a 4th and this is almost like the 4th

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act, if you like, of the story.

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And that is that there's always a better way.

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We might get into this later on, I think.

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But isn't it telling that it's the companion who alerts the doctor

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to that better way?

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00:12:36.600 --> 00:12:40.740
And it's companion again that we'll see, I guess, in the 50s, which

246
00:12:40.740 --> 00:12:43.740
does exactly the same thing, that it's not just that we have these

247
00:12:43.740 --> 00:12:47.100
2 choices and it's the case of choosing between the lesser of 2

248
00:12:47.100 --> 00:12:47.580
evils.

249
00:12:47.639 --> 00:12:48.960
There's always a better way to do things.

250
00:12:49.440 --> 00:12:53.100
I mean, but that's an absolute moffet thing to do, isn't it?

251
00:12:53.159 --> 00:12:56.220
We're telling a particular type of story and then we say, no, this

252
00:12:56.220 --> 00:12:57.120
isn't good enough.

253
00:12:57.179 --> 00:13:01.559
Not this world or this system of oppression or these villains or

254
00:13:01.559 --> 00:13:04.139
whatever aren't good enough, but this story isn't good enough.

255
00:13:04.259 --> 00:13:06.299
This story has to end a different way.

256
00:13:06.360 --> 00:13:08.940
And so we're going to find a way of making it do that.

257
00:13:09.419 --> 00:13:13.500
And 0 my god, how bleak would it have been if the doctor did

258
00:13:13.500 --> 00:13:15.240
euthanize a space whale?

259
00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:16.200
Yeah, yeah.

260
00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:18.480
I was like an early teenager watching this.

261
00:13:18.539 --> 00:13:21.059
I was like, 0 man, that is dark.

262
00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:23.220
And I believe they were going to go for it at the time.

263
00:13:23.700 --> 00:13:27.419
I do remember at the time someone pointing out, it's like, okay

264
00:13:27.419 --> 00:13:27.659
okay.

265
00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:30.720
Yeah, the doctor's being really cruel here, but please keep in

266
00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:34.500
mind, this is the same day as the end of time for him.

267
00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:36.000
He has not had enough.

268
00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:39.600
It needs to go have a sleep.

269
00:13:39.779 --> 00:13:41.940
It's probably a little bit.

270
00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:44.279
I'd be very cranky after that much, John Sam.

271
00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:47.100
Wow.

272
00:13:47.399 --> 00:13:51.000
He's probably still got a little bit of like Timothy Dalton spit

273
00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:51.360
on.

274
00:13:51.419 --> 00:13:52.440
We all do.

275
00:13:52.500 --> 00:13:53.340
Oh, please.

276
00:13:53.399 --> 00:13:55.440
Well, I guess he's got a whale on top of that now.

277
00:13:56.460 --> 00:14:01.379
And can I just say the sound effect during the vomiting sequence

278
00:14:01.379 --> 00:14:02.100
with the whale?

279
00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:03.720
I forgot how good they were.

280
00:14:03.779 --> 00:14:05.580
I was bursting out loud.

281
00:14:05.700 --> 00:14:07.980
Oh, because we come away, we cut away, don't we?

282
00:14:08.039 --> 00:14:11.159
To the exterior, to an exterior shot of the ship and hear the sort

283
00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:12.360
of massive bathing sound.

284
00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:18.059
I have to say that, you know, we're talking about the scene where

285
00:14:18.059 --> 00:14:22.860
the doctor is about to put the whale to sleep.

286
00:14:22.919 --> 00:14:27.179
And the, the amazing thing about that is the performance in the

287
00:14:27.179 --> 00:14:31.200
we're standing in a mouth scene where the doctor is super excited

288
00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:35.100
and and that whole exchange about the next word being a bit of a

289
00:14:35.100 --> 00:14:40.200
scary word and the word is tongue and like, like, it's so

290
00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:41.700
unexpected and so brilliant.

291
00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:44.759
It's so Moffin, he's so he's so clever with the dialogue.

292
00:14:44.820 --> 00:14:47.340
And Matt is relishing it.

293
00:14:47.399 --> 00:14:52.799
Like he's loving it and his doctor has been so enthusiastic and so

294
00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:53.700
childlike.

295
00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:57.779
You know, he spent 15 minutes last week talking to a child and

296
00:14:57.779 --> 00:15:04.860
being like a child, that when he's forced to um, consider killing

297
00:15:04.860 --> 00:15:06.299
the whale.

298
00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:08.159
He shouts for the very 1st time.

299
00:15:08.220 --> 00:15:10.620
And I think it's so striking.

300
00:15:10.679 --> 00:15:12.240
It's almost a jump scare.

301
00:15:12.299 --> 00:15:14.220
It's so, so good.

302
00:15:14.340 --> 00:15:17.220
It's the 1st time you see how scary he can be.

303
00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:19.259
I mean, this can be a scary doctor.

304
00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:23.159
Yeah, look, I think he's super scary when he scares the attracti

305
00:15:23.159 --> 00:15:27.659
off last week and just says basically wrong and his jaw is

306
00:15:27.659 --> 00:15:30.120
clenched, but he absolutely underplays it.

307
00:15:30.179 --> 00:15:33.419
But hearing him shout for the 1st time is really, really

308
00:15:33.419 --> 00:15:34.259
shocking.

309
00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:37.980
And I find myself actually getting a bit upset by it too.

310
00:15:38.039 --> 00:15:43.139
Well, I, I find from the beg, from the very beginning of the story

311
00:15:43.139 --> 00:15:46.080
he's, he's got an unpleasant streak to him.

312
00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:47.399
And I don't think it's an oversight.

313
00:15:47.460 --> 00:15:48.539
I think it's a conscious choice.

314
00:15:48.600 --> 00:15:53.279
When he says to Amy, look, go follow Mandy and she's like, why do

315
00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:53.820
I have to do that?

316
00:15:53.879 --> 00:15:56.340
And he just turns through and says, it's this or Ledworth.

317
00:15:56.399 --> 00:16:00.659
It's basically stalk this child to get information for me or I'm

318
00:16:00.659 --> 00:16:01.379
taking you home.

319
00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:04.379
And again, at the end when he turns really nasty.

320
00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:08.519
After he shouts, he says, After this, it's straight back home for

321
00:16:08.519 --> 00:16:08.700
you.

322
00:16:08.759 --> 00:16:10.679
But I think that's fair enough.

323
00:16:10.740 --> 00:16:14.340
Like, I think that the after this, it's straight back home for you

324
00:16:14.340 --> 00:16:19.559
like, that's absolutely the right thing because, um, she has

325
00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:22.679
decided not only that she's going to allow this system of

326
00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:26.580
oppression to be perpetuated, but that she's going to prevent the

327
00:16:26.580 --> 00:16:30.360
doctor from overthrowing it out of some weird need to, like

328
00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:31.320
protect the doctor.

329
00:16:31.379 --> 00:16:33.899
I mean, that is so fascinating to unpack.

330
00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:35.639
Why does she think he needs to be protected?

331
00:16:35.700 --> 00:16:39.179
I wonder if it's almost like he's part of her childhood.

332
00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:42.059
She wants to keep pure, even though there's no way in hell that's

333
00:16:42.059 --> 00:16:42.360
staying.

334
00:16:42.419 --> 00:16:43.200
That's interesting.

335
00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:48.299
But don't you think that the only outcome apart from complicity

336
00:16:48.299 --> 00:16:53.159
that she can imagine is killing everyone on Starship UK.

337
00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:56.220
Yeah, she didn't want to make the, she didn't want him to make

338
00:16:56.220 --> 00:16:56.639
that choice.

339
00:16:56.879 --> 00:17:00.179
And even the doctor himself has said we shouldn't have come here

340
00:17:00.179 --> 00:17:04.500
at one point because he can sort of see that moral dilemma

341
00:17:04.500 --> 00:17:05.700
impending a bit.

342
00:17:05.759 --> 00:17:07.259
I think.

343
00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:11.039
I do think too, that, that I think that that, um, is this or

344
00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:13.500
Ledworth, isn't quite as mean.

345
00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:16.500
I don't read it as quite as mean as Brandon does, because I think

346
00:17:16.500 --> 00:17:18.420
he's saying, this is the sort of thing we do.

347
00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:19.559
Do you know what I mean?

348
00:17:19.619 --> 00:17:20.700
Yeah.

349
00:17:20.700 --> 00:17:23.819
Well, the thing, you know, he says it in a jokey way, but it is

350
00:17:23.819 --> 00:17:26.759
actually exactly the same threat as at the end.

351
00:17:26.819 --> 00:17:30.059
Like if you just, if you strip out, if you strip out the emotion

352
00:17:30.059 --> 00:17:32.700
because the emotion's very different, the words are the same.

353
00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:38.759
It's almost as cruel as Rose would know, never mind.

354
00:17:38.819 --> 00:17:40.019
I'll take you home in the morning.

355
00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:41.039
Yeah, yeah.

356
00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:45.900
And at least with that, the doctor partially had the excuse of

357
00:17:45.900 --> 00:17:48.779
he's not really in this moment because he's reminiscing about

358
00:17:48.779 --> 00:17:49.200
Rose.

359
00:17:49.259 --> 00:17:52.619
But that being said, that's not a criticism.

360
00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:55.859
I think that is a conscious choice on behalf of Stephen Moffatt

361
00:17:55.859 --> 00:18:01.079
who is hinting, basically, you know, that in 18 months from now, we

362
00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:03.599
are going to get the doctor shouting Colonel Runaway.

363
00:18:03.660 --> 00:18:06.359
Yeah, you know, which is an amazing moment.

364
00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:11.220
I think it's also vital to how Amy's developing here because she's

365
00:18:11.220 --> 00:18:14.039
grown up with the idea of the doctor, but never really known the

366
00:18:14.039 --> 00:18:14.579
reality.

367
00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:16.680
This whole episode is her sort of sounding out what her

368
00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:17.400
relationship is.

369
00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:20.700
She follows the orders to investigate Mandy because she still sort

370
00:18:20.700 --> 00:18:23.039
of feels like she owes it to him.

371
00:18:23.099 --> 00:18:26.579
She's still in a place where she's kind of, His assistant.

372
00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:28.380
I'm your new assistant.

373
00:18:28.440 --> 00:18:32.160
But over the course of the episode, she starts to take charge more

374
00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:35.940
to the point where, yeah, she makes a big screw up with the voting

375
00:18:35.940 --> 00:18:39.420
but she's starting to make these decisions for herself until at

376
00:18:39.420 --> 00:18:41.759
the end she can call the doctor out and make a better choice.

377
00:18:41.819 --> 00:18:45.180
And that's a really cool arc to have within the space of an

378
00:18:45.180 --> 00:18:45.359
episode.

379
00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:49.740
And I think Kevin, it's essential because what we see with Amy is

380
00:18:49.740 --> 00:18:52.500
that she can't see the world except for that, you know, that

381
00:18:52.500 --> 00:18:55.799
dilemma, which is essentially Dostoevsky's dilemma in the brothers

382
00:18:55.799 --> 00:18:56.519
cameras of, right?

383
00:18:56.579 --> 00:18:59.640
This idea that you can have a utopia, but it comes at the expense

384
00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:01.559
of torturing an innocent life.

385
00:19:01.619 --> 00:19:05.460
And it's, that whole edifice is is founded on the unavenged tears

386
00:19:05.460 --> 00:19:06.420
of that, of that innocent.

387
00:19:06.539 --> 00:19:10.319
That's the only thing that she can think of until she steps back

388
00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:13.019
and she sees the space well, and she sees the doctor for what they

389
00:19:13.019 --> 00:19:16.200
actually are, and she's, uh, you know, her horizons have been

390
00:19:16.200 --> 00:19:19.740
expanded essentially, and she becomes the companion in that, in

391
00:19:19.740 --> 00:19:23.339
that instance, um, which is, uh, maybe a little bit problematic

392
00:19:23.339 --> 00:19:25.380
but we see it a lot in Yoo Hoo, where the companion has to be

393
00:19:25.380 --> 00:19:27.480
worthy of travelling with the doctor, and I think it's a real

394
00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:30.720
growth moment for, for the character of Amy to solve that plot to

395
00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:34.619
essentially unlock that 4th act, which is, no, no, there is a

396
00:19:34.619 --> 00:19:37.799
better way, and this is, um, how it's done but maybe we'll talk

397
00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:38.279
about that later.

398
00:19:44.339 --> 00:19:47.640
I would like to talk about that later, because that's actually my

399
00:19:47.640 --> 00:19:49.559
big problem with this episode.

400
00:19:49.619 --> 00:19:51.779
Oh, I think I want to hear it now.

401
00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:55.259
Okay, well, um, fighting words.

402
00:19:55.259 --> 00:19:58.859
A few years ago and it's currently out of print for reasons I

403
00:19:58.859 --> 00:19:59.700
won't go into here.

404
00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:05.579
But I was part of a book called Hating to Love reassessing the 52

405
00:20:05.579 --> 00:20:07.140
worst Doctor Who stories of all time.

406
00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:11.160
And the beast below was in amongst them.

407
00:20:11.220 --> 00:20:14.400
Now, I didn't, I know.

408
00:20:14.940 --> 00:20:18.299
It was basically one per season and then a few more.

409
00:20:18.420 --> 00:20:22.019
I didn't specifically ask for the beast below, but it was assigned

410
00:20:22.019 --> 00:20:22.380
to me.

411
00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:25.319
Victory of the dialect is right there.

412
00:20:25.380 --> 00:20:27.299
The lodger is right there.

413
00:20:27.420 --> 00:20:30.720
Victory of the Daleks and the Lodger were also both in the book.

414
00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:32.220
Okay.

415
00:20:32.220 --> 00:20:34.079
Well, at least I'm a little happier now.

416
00:20:34.140 --> 00:20:37.740
But what it boils down to for me is, you're absolutely right

417
00:20:37.740 --> 00:20:39.420
Stephen, in that in New Who.

418
00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:44.940
There is this sort of thing where the companion has to prove their

419
00:20:44.940 --> 00:20:45.359
worth.

420
00:20:45.420 --> 00:20:49.740
So, you know, Rose swings on the chain because she won the silver

421
00:20:49.740 --> 00:20:51.779
gymnastics medal.

422
00:20:51.779 --> 00:20:52.559
The Bronx.

423
00:20:52.619 --> 00:20:56.099
And we've never seen her gymnastic skills again. very upset about

424
00:20:56.099 --> 00:20:57.180
that as a gymnast.

425
00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:02.759
You know, Marfa has to scan and read to show that she's a

426
00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:03.299
vampire.

427
00:21:03.420 --> 00:21:08.160
Donna has the extra pendant and then helps the doctor wipe out the

428
00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:08.819
pyra vials.

429
00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:14.940
In all of those, their action is complimentary to what the doctor

430
00:21:14.940 --> 00:21:15.299
is doing.

431
00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:18.960
It's like the doctor is pretty much already doing that and is

432
00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:23.579
stopped and can only get out of the situation. by what the

433
00:21:23.579 --> 00:21:24.180
companion does.

434
00:21:24.359 --> 00:21:28.920
Amy's action is in opposition to what the doctor's doing and Amy

435
00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:30.000
is doing the right thing.

436
00:21:30.059 --> 00:21:34.500
But the problem is instead of just showing Amy's intelligence.

437
00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:37.380
And it's a very intelligent moment because we get one of the

438
00:21:37.380 --> 00:21:39.059
better sort of Moffat moments.

439
00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:42.960
Moffatt does a lot of moments where he sort of has lines from the

440
00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:45.720
show replay inside a character's head as they figure something out

441
00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:46.920
that works really well here.

442
00:21:46.980 --> 00:21:48.839
It's a really intelligent moment.

443
00:21:48.900 --> 00:21:54.599
I feel it is heavily undermined by the fact that it's not so much

444
00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:56.039
Amy's being really smart.

445
00:21:56.099 --> 00:21:58.319
It's that the doctor's being really stupid.

446
00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:02.519
Uh, I'm not sure about that though.

447
00:22:02.579 --> 00:22:07.200
How does he doesn't have the information, does he or does he?

448
00:22:07.259 --> 00:22:11.759
Yeah, I don't, I, I thought it, he was, I mean, like I said, I

449
00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:12.660
totally bought that.

450
00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:15.000
The euthanasia was the best option to do at the time.

451
00:22:15.059 --> 00:22:19.440
I thought that was a very heavy dilemma and then, I mean, Amy only

452
00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:21.359
gets to the point she does because she's been observing how the

453
00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:22.619
doctor acts the whole episode.

454
00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:24.119
He can't really observe himself.

455
00:22:24.180 --> 00:22:27.359
And he also isn't really looking over at the whale cuddling with

456
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:27.900
kids.

457
00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:28.980
Is a bit busy.

458
00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:32.640
Well, that is exactly it too, because one of the things about that

459
00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:36.000
resolution is it's a bit laboured, like we are told it about 5

460
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:39.180
times or something in, you know, succession.

461
00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:41.279
But the doctor doesn't realise it.

462
00:22:41.339 --> 00:22:45.059
Like, even though for us, all of that stuff about being old and

463
00:22:45.059 --> 00:22:50.339
lonely and kind and the last of your kind, like, you know, the

464
00:22:50.339 --> 00:22:54.779
camera is on the doctor when she actually delivers that line.

465
00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:56.880
We know that she's talking about the doctor, but the doctor

466
00:22:56.880 --> 00:22:57.660
doesn't get it.

467
00:22:57.660 --> 00:23:02.579
And it's because, you know, maybe he is being stupid, but he's not

468
00:23:02.579 --> 00:23:03.779
being stupid about the situation.

469
00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:06.539
He's just not recognising his own behaviour.

470
00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:11.220
Remember when he says to Amy what he does, which is we're just

471
00:23:11.220 --> 00:23:13.680
observers, all of that sort of thing.

472
00:23:13.740 --> 00:23:14.759
We don't interfere.

473
00:23:14.819 --> 00:23:17.819
Um, you know, I'll be here staying out of trouble.

474
00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:20.880
He gives her a completely false idea of what he does.

475
00:23:20.940 --> 00:23:24.839
And of course, the 1st action that he takes is to come for a

476
00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:25.619
crying child.

477
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:32.099
And the montage that we see Amy C in the voting booth has crying

478
00:23:32.099 --> 00:23:33.420
children all the way through it.

479
00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:38.700
Um, and so she makes that link before he does, but it's because

480
00:23:38.700 --> 00:23:45.539
she isn't him, and she has learned about him this episode, and

481
00:23:45.539 --> 00:23:50.279
it's that knowledge that enables her to work out what the uh, the

482
00:23:50.279 --> 00:23:51.000
alternative is.

483
00:23:51.299 --> 00:23:55.380
I think Davies and Moffatt both kind of subscribe to the idea that

484
00:23:55.380 --> 00:23:58.559
the companion is necessary, not just for what they're bringing

485
00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:01.799
themselves, but how they can observe the doctor and call out the

486
00:24:01.799 --> 00:24:04.920
doctor in a way that the doctor can never possibly do alone.

487
00:24:04.980 --> 00:24:07.859
Like, that's why they're always saying, don't travel alone.

488
00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:10.259
And that's also something I think we need more of right now.

489
00:24:10.740 --> 00:24:13.980
Absolutely, and see the humanity in him as well.

490
00:24:14.039 --> 00:24:16.799
So, I mean, yes, it's a massively heavy metaphor and I think

491
00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:19.559
that's probably the closest that you could criticise the

492
00:24:19.559 --> 00:24:20.880
resolution for, but you know what?

493
00:24:20.940 --> 00:24:24.180
This isn't just a show for now, self-aware adults, who could never

494
00:24:24.180 --> 00:24:26.940
quite allow themselves to grow out of a silly old television

495
00:24:26.940 --> 00:24:30.420
family show because a huge part of why we never actually grew out

496
00:24:30.420 --> 00:24:33.720
of that, that television show is that same kind of morality play

497
00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:34.200
message.

498
00:24:34.259 --> 00:24:36.660
We loved when we were 10 and we were watching Genesis of the

499
00:24:36.660 --> 00:24:39.900
Daleks or the 5 doctors or even a planet of the Daleks, for

500
00:24:39.900 --> 00:24:40.500
heaven's sake.

501
00:24:40.619 --> 00:24:45.240
Like, this is the doctor being shown what the doctor can do and B

502
00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:46.500
by the companion.

503
00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:48.180
And I think, I think that's great.

504
00:24:48.180 --> 00:24:51.660
And the metaphor is massively heavy, yes, but it's not just us

505
00:24:51.660 --> 00:24:52.079
watching.

506
00:24:52.140 --> 00:24:55.259
It's also the, you know, the 12 year old girl who's who's Amy's

507
00:24:55.259 --> 00:24:58.500
companion in this story also watching, and I think that's, That's

508
00:24:58.500 --> 00:24:59.279
actually fair enough I feel.

509
00:25:14.700 --> 00:25:20.279
You know, the scene where Amy learns that the doctor's the last of

510
00:25:20.279 --> 00:25:25.559
his kind and she's told by him about the time war.

511
00:25:25.619 --> 00:25:31.440
And I just wanted to note how superbly Matt plays that, the

512
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:36.839
decision to throw it away and to not, you know, bad day.

513
00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:37.680
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

514
00:25:37.740 --> 00:25:41.940
Um, rather than to do the sort of David Tennant trembling lower

515
00:25:41.940 --> 00:25:44.460
lip and, you know, moist eyes.

516
00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:44.940
Yeah.

517
00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:51.900
And can I just say he and Karen Gillan are both on fire here.

518
00:25:51.960 --> 00:25:53.819
I mean, it's very early in their run.

519
00:25:53.880 --> 00:25:56.519
I know it's not the 1st thing they film, but it's one of the 1st

520
00:25:56.519 --> 00:25:57.359
things we saw of them.

521
00:25:57.420 --> 00:25:59.519
They have so much chemistry already.

522
00:25:59.579 --> 00:26:04.500
You can already feel their dynamic feels lived in, and they're

523
00:26:04.500 --> 00:26:06.480
already making a lot of really clever choices like that.

524
00:26:06.539 --> 00:26:08.339
I absolutely adore them.

525
00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:11.880
I, there, I mean, I was like a teenager watching them.

526
00:26:11.940 --> 00:26:15.660
They are the ones that own my heart and I was instantly swept back

527
00:26:15.660 --> 00:26:15.960
into that.

528
00:26:16.019 --> 00:26:20.220
It's interesting to hear you say that, Kevin, because for me, Matt

529
00:26:20.220 --> 00:26:25.019
Smith is still probably my favourite doctor of the new series

530
00:26:25.019 --> 00:26:25.799
doctors.

531
00:26:25.799 --> 00:26:30.599
As I've discussed with you in the past, Kevin, and I think with

532
00:26:30.599 --> 00:26:35.460
all of you separately, there are things this era does that I think

533
00:26:35.460 --> 00:26:37.799
twice about, but never about Matt Smith.

534
00:26:37.859 --> 00:26:43.259
And I feel like he settles into the role the quickest since

535
00:26:43.259 --> 00:26:44.400
Sylvester McCoy.

536
00:26:44.460 --> 00:26:48.240
Oh, the 1st thing that he films, and we'll get to this in a couple

537
00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:52.740
of weeks, is the scene on the beach with River and he nails it

538
00:26:52.740 --> 00:26:53.160
instantly.

539
00:26:53.220 --> 00:26:56.880
Just from the get go, he is absolutely perfect.

540
00:26:56.940 --> 00:27:00.599
And I, I agree with you, Kevin.

541
00:27:00.660 --> 00:27:06.059
I think both of these 2 leads are really incredible and they work

542
00:27:06.059 --> 00:27:07.140
really well together.

543
00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:09.000
And then when Arthur joins them.

544
00:27:09.059 --> 00:27:15.119
Um, you know, it's 3 attractive young people who all really like

545
00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:20.279
one another, and I just think the interplay between them, and the

546
00:27:20.279 --> 00:27:23.579
relationships among them are super interesting.

547
00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:26.759
Like, I think they're an absolutely superb Tartist team.

548
00:27:26.819 --> 00:27:31.440
Yeah, I think it's something Russell tries to go for with the 10th

549
00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:34.319
Dr. Rose and Mickey in the 10th doctor and Rose are sort of

550
00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:36.240
bouncing around the room and Mickey's just there occasionally

551
00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:38.519
saying, okay, you're going to come down to the floor now, but it

552
00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:42.059
doesn't work because Russell's sort of encouraging us to laugh at

553
00:27:42.059 --> 00:27:45.599
Mickey, whereas when Rory comes on, we're actually kind of with

554
00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:48.119
Rory, when he's saying to them, all right, calm down.

555
00:27:48.180 --> 00:27:49.559
It's just Venice.

556
00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:52.380
They're just fish lobsters.

557
00:27:53.460 --> 00:27:57.059
But yeah, here, the 2 of them together.

558
00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:01.500
Like, Amy, Amy is a character I sometimes have problems with, but

559
00:28:01.500 --> 00:28:04.380
I do not fault Karen Gillen for that.

560
00:28:04.440 --> 00:28:07.380
I think Karen Gillen is a spectacular actress and the more I see

561
00:28:07.380 --> 00:28:11.339
her in, the more variety I see her do in other things makes me

562
00:28:11.339 --> 00:28:16.380
appreciate Amy all the more because much like Matt Smith, she's

563
00:28:16.380 --> 00:28:21.299
doing very complex things in very small moments, like, like the

564
00:28:21.299 --> 00:28:24.839
bit in, in the voting booth when she's watching, you know

565
00:28:24.839 --> 00:28:27.180
Christopher Hamilton bid me tell her that something bad is going

566
00:28:27.180 --> 00:28:27.539
to.

567
00:28:27.660 --> 00:28:29.400
I thought it was Jeremy Core, but...

568
00:28:29.400 --> 00:28:33.000
It so does look...

569
00:28:33.900 --> 00:28:36.480
Call that Hamilton bitch.

570
00:28:37.019 --> 00:28:38.940
What have we done?

571
00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:43.799
Um, I should I should mention, I was living in the UK when this

572
00:28:43.799 --> 00:28:48.900
series went out and they were coming up to a general election

573
00:28:48.900 --> 00:28:52.079
which, of course, is where David Cameron got in because he looked

574
00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:53.700
better in a suit than Gordon Brown.

575
00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:55.740
It's like, no, really, that was the reason.

576
00:28:55.799 --> 00:28:58.799
But you did have this feeling in the UK.

577
00:28:58.859 --> 00:29:02.160
You know, Tony Blair had quit and was immensely popular.

578
00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:05.220
And I'm just going to leave that statement there because we could

579
00:29:05.220 --> 00:29:06.720
do a whole hour of Tony Blair.

580
00:29:06.779 --> 00:29:11.160
Um, But he was immensely popular and Gordon Brown was a lot more

581
00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:13.079
sort of a workaday politician.

582
00:29:13.140 --> 00:29:16.019
He wasn't massively charismatic, but he was very intelligent, very

583
00:29:16.019 --> 00:29:16.680
erudite.

584
00:29:16.740 --> 00:29:22.740
Whereas David Cameron comes along and is massively charismatic. you

585
00:29:22.740 --> 00:29:25.740
know, goes on to win the election and Moffatt pressages that.

586
00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:27.240
He pressages Brexit.

587
00:29:27.299 --> 00:29:27.660
Yeah.

588
00:29:27.660 --> 00:29:30.720
Um, you know, he presides austerity.

589
00:29:30.779 --> 00:29:32.819
He press Scottish independence.

590
00:29:33.059 --> 00:29:37.319
Because that was a that was a neophyte idea in terms of the

591
00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:37.980
referendum.

592
00:29:38.039 --> 00:29:40.559
Obviously, the idea has been around for many 100s of years.

593
00:29:40.859 --> 00:29:46.079
But it wasn't until 2014 that the 1st referendum happened and now

594
00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:47.460
we've probably got another one coming.

595
00:29:49.079 --> 00:29:55.079
And I think much like when Russell does political commentary, you

596
00:29:55.079 --> 00:29:57.779
sort of go, oh, he's kind of seeing a bit into the future with

597
00:29:57.779 --> 00:29:59.099
this when you come back 5 years later.

598
00:29:59.099 --> 00:30:01.319
I think Moffatt was doing exactly the same thing.

599
00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:03.900
I think I think it is commentary.

600
00:30:04.019 --> 00:30:06.539
You might be accidental, and it does weirdly presage all of those

601
00:30:06.539 --> 00:30:10.380
things, as you say, Brendan, you know, it's Starship UK. that does

602
00:30:10.380 --> 00:30:11.519
a lot of the heavy lifting, though.

603
00:30:11.579 --> 00:30:13.319
It's done through iconography and imagery.

604
00:30:13.380 --> 00:30:16.740
It's Starship UK minor scholar and really who can blame them.

605
00:30:16.799 --> 00:30:17.400
But look at it.

606
00:30:17.460 --> 00:30:19.859
It's like a Gothic lashed up of interconnecting wires.

607
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:22.259
It's kind of like what Gotham City might have looked like if it

608
00:30:22.259 --> 00:30:25.259
was a, if it was Britain's 2nd city and not Birmingham.

609
00:30:25.319 --> 00:30:28.019
Um, you've got the distinct and decaying buildings.

610
00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:30.000
You know, it's all a bit crap.

611
00:30:30.059 --> 00:30:32.279
The 2nd R in Surrey is on the Fritz.

612
00:30:32.339 --> 00:30:32.819
Yes.

613
00:30:33.660 --> 00:30:36.119
The 1st thing that we see.

614
00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:40.619
The production design is fantastic, though.

615
00:30:40.680 --> 00:30:44.099
I mean, you don't really get all the details as developed as I

616
00:30:44.099 --> 00:30:46.740
feel like they must have been in Moffatt's head, like the smilers

617
00:30:46.740 --> 00:30:49.980
the winders, all that exposition dialogue is just cut, cut, cut

618
00:30:49.980 --> 00:30:52.920
but the details feel really realised.

619
00:30:52.980 --> 00:30:55.319
It feels like he gave them quite a lot of notes.

620
00:30:55.440 --> 00:31:00.180
And I love the, the tube signs for the elevator. cracks me up.

621
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:05.279
And all the BBC sort of stuff, you know, in that explanatory video

622
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:06.000
and things.

623
00:31:06.059 --> 00:31:10.319
And in fact, that's what's really interesting about it is it leans

624
00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:14.160
so heavily into sort of mid-20th century sort of British

625
00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:17.099
iconography, which again is magpie electrical.

626
00:31:17.160 --> 00:31:18.180
Well, yes, exactly.

627
00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:21.779
And it's going to be a feature of next week's episode as well.

628
00:31:22.140 --> 00:31:24.599
So it revels in that.

629
00:31:24.660 --> 00:31:26.700
You know, like it seems to be celebrating it.

630
00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:27.839
There's the monarchy.

631
00:31:27.900 --> 00:31:31.859
The thing that makes Great Britain, even today, a sort of fairy

632
00:31:31.859 --> 00:31:35.339
tale kingdom is that it's a kingdom, you know, and there's castles

633
00:31:35.339 --> 00:31:37.259
and things like that and the queen.

634
00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:42.839
But it portrays that as being fundamentally rotten and based upon

635
00:31:42.839 --> 00:31:45.299
oppression and emiseration.

636
00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:48.720
Like what looks like it's going to be a celebration of Britishness

637
00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:52.859
in the way that, you know, Russell's 1st series of Doctor Who is.

638
00:31:52.980 --> 00:31:56.759
But here it's a celebration of Britishness that's about how

639
00:31:56.759 --> 00:31:58.500
fundamentally rotten it all is.

640
00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:01.200
But what is it redeemed by Nathan, right?

641
00:32:01.259 --> 00:32:04.019
And that the heart of this is a sort of problematic thing that

642
00:32:04.019 --> 00:32:06.299
we'll definitely see next week, which is the positioning of the

643
00:32:06.299 --> 00:32:09.299
doctorate as close to the heart of that mythical kingdom of the

644
00:32:09.299 --> 00:32:09.900
United Kingdom?

645
00:32:09.960 --> 00:32:13.079
And it's also obviously the way in which the doctor becomes a myth

646
00:32:13.079 --> 00:32:16.500
and the store has become about the doctor being a myth in Moffat's

647
00:32:16.500 --> 00:32:16.980
era as well.

648
00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:19.980
You know, Liz Ten says, I was brought up on stories of you.

649
00:32:20.039 --> 00:32:20.819
My whole family was.

650
00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:24.180
And it's this idea that again, it's revisited in the resolution

651
00:32:24.180 --> 00:32:28.140
where the doctor, as a promise, is so strong and so beneficent

652
00:32:28.140 --> 00:32:31.200
that he is essentially what is at the heart of what is good about

653
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:34.200
Britain, and that's to say that the doctor is the best of us, and

654
00:32:34.200 --> 00:32:37.559
that is kind of the role that the doctor has in this story, but

655
00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:39.059
also I think in the Moffatt years to come.

656
00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:42.720
And 0 my goodness, that moment where he talks about how he would

657
00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:43.559
have to give up his name.

658
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:44.759
Yeah.

659
00:32:44.940 --> 00:32:47.099
We see that next, right?

660
00:32:47.160 --> 00:32:48.299
Well, that's the thing.

661
00:32:48.359 --> 00:32:52.440
There's 2 moments in this that press out, the day of the doctor

662
00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:53.220
and one of them is that.

663
00:32:53.220 --> 00:32:57.119
And the other one is when the doctor is talking about being the

664
00:32:57.119 --> 00:32:58.140
last time, Lord.

665
00:32:58.200 --> 00:33:01.680
And he said, you know, a lot of people died, and I will never

666
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:02.099
forget that.

667
00:33:02.099 --> 00:33:05.039
And we get to the day of the doctor and he can't remember how many

668
00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:05.700
children there were.

669
00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:07.200
He's the man who forgets.

670
00:33:07.259 --> 00:33:12.660
Well, in fact, it's really good, isn't it, that what Moffatt does

671
00:33:12.660 --> 00:33:17.099
in that scene with Tennant in Day of the Doctor is he just takes

672
00:33:17.099 --> 00:33:20.819
the doctor's performances and the way that they talk about the

673
00:33:20.819 --> 00:33:23.940
time war and develops them into a proper character difference

674
00:33:23.940 --> 00:33:24.720
between them.

675
00:33:24.779 --> 00:33:29.220
Um, you know, like interrogates the way that he's had Matt doing

676
00:33:29.220 --> 00:33:29.940
that all along.

677
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:34.799
And like Matt was never going to kind of be all kind of maudlin

678
00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:38.400
and weepy and stuff because that's not his performance.

679
00:33:38.460 --> 00:33:43.859
But, uh, you know, Moffatt looks at that difference and and spend

680
00:33:43.859 --> 00:33:45.180
some time interrogating it.

681
00:33:45.240 --> 00:33:47.339
I think it's really incredibly interesting.

682
00:33:59.460 --> 00:34:03.480
So, if we're talking about the best of Britain, All right, were

683
00:34:03.480 --> 00:34:06.180
you going to also talk about what might be the worst of Britain, or

684
00:34:06.180 --> 00:34:08.219
might be more complicated with Liz 10.

685
00:34:08.579 --> 00:34:11.639
I think she's really terrific Fabulous.

686
00:34:11.699 --> 00:34:13.440
I love how she's wonderful.

687
00:34:13.500 --> 00:34:17.460
I love her little like disgust when she shakes Amy's hand and then

688
00:34:17.460 --> 00:34:18.719
gets vomit all over it.

689
00:34:19.619 --> 00:34:22.980
No, she goes nice hair, shame about the sick.

690
00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:25.079
It's...

691
00:34:25.380 --> 00:34:29.460
She's also like fundamentally corrupt, but she's also kind of

692
00:34:29.460 --> 00:34:32.400
corrupting the British monarchy by being black, which is a rare

693
00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:35.820
thing in Moffatt's early seasons of having any non-white people at

694
00:34:35.820 --> 00:34:36.059
all.

695
00:34:36.300 --> 00:34:38.099
It's complicated.

696
00:34:38.219 --> 00:34:39.780
That's that's another moment.

697
00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:43.920
Moffat presages from the real world, a person of coa as a member

698
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:47.519
of the royal family. as we would eventually, sadly, briefly have

699
00:34:47.519 --> 00:34:50.219
with Meghan Markle, but who can blame her and Harry, frankly?

700
00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:51.960
And I wish them all the happiness of the world.

701
00:34:52.019 --> 00:34:56.039
But the thing is, I remember at the time you can imagine how

702
00:34:56.039 --> 00:34:57.840
Galafre Base reacted to that.

703
00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:04.440
I believe the beast below section was closed for 12 hours for

704
00:35:04.440 --> 00:35:05.400
people to cool off.

705
00:35:05.460 --> 00:35:06.300
Wow.

706
00:35:07.559 --> 00:35:12.119
Whereas me, I'm just going, 0 my god, that's Alison from Scream of

707
00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:12.719
the Shelker.

708
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:16.199
Yeah. is so good.

709
00:35:16.260 --> 00:35:19.019
She deserves another girl at being a companion, honestly.

710
00:35:19.139 --> 00:35:23.400
I think what's interesting is that her dilemma is the same as

711
00:35:23.400 --> 00:35:24.000
ours.

712
00:35:24.059 --> 00:35:29.699
You know, like it's essentially parallel, that even though she...

713
00:35:29.699 --> 00:35:36.300
Look, she is depicted as having proper concern for her people, and

714
00:35:36.300 --> 00:35:39.300
what she thinks she's doing is getting to the bottom of some

715
00:35:39.300 --> 00:35:42.780
terrible thing that's infesting the ship.

716
00:35:42.840 --> 00:35:48.659
And then she discovers, uh, just like Amy discovers that it's her

717
00:35:48.659 --> 00:35:51.900
that she's been doing this all along because she's been making

718
00:35:51.900 --> 00:35:54.059
exactly the same decision as all of her people.

719
00:35:54.300 --> 00:36:00.059
Um, So, I think she is depicted as being corrupt, but I don't

720
00:36:00.059 --> 00:36:04.260
think she's depicted as being any more corrupt than any of the

721
00:36:04.260 --> 00:36:04.739
rest of us.

722
00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:06.599
But I think maybe that's the difference.

723
00:36:06.659 --> 00:36:09.900
She might not be any more corrupt than the rest of us, but she's

724
00:36:09.900 --> 00:36:13.380
in a position of power where how it impacts her impacts all of

725
00:36:13.380 --> 00:36:13.619
us.

726
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:17.940
Although the setup does give us much more power than we normally

727
00:36:17.940 --> 00:36:21.480
do in a democracy, remember, because the threshold for protest is

728
00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:22.199
one%.

729
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:26.760
If one% of the people on Starship UK protest, the whole thing

730
00:36:26.760 --> 00:36:27.300
falls down.

731
00:36:27.420 --> 00:36:31.800
They also kill literally every protester, which is slightly more

732
00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:32.280
than we do.

733
00:36:32.340 --> 00:36:33.780
That's true.

734
00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:38.400
Whose idea was it to kill every protester anyway?

735
00:36:38.460 --> 00:36:39.420
I really want to know.

736
00:36:39.480 --> 00:36:40.860
Was that her idea?

737
00:36:41.699 --> 00:36:45.780
Yeah, yeah, it sounds like that's probably one of the things that

738
00:36:45.780 --> 00:36:48.659
the story doesn't want us to think about too carefully.

739
00:36:48.780 --> 00:36:50.039
And I do...

740
00:36:50.039 --> 00:36:52.920
Maybe it's just an extrapolation of what happened post-Brexit many

741
00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:53.760
many centuries later.

742
00:36:54.659 --> 00:37:00.360
I think probably that because he wanted to make the monster a

743
00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:04.800
monster and wanted the feeding tube scene and all of that, that

744
00:37:04.800 --> 00:37:08.639
he's probably introduced elements into the story that don't quite

745
00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:10.079
work with the allegory.

746
00:37:10.139 --> 00:37:13.619
Yeah, no, this story totally doesn't hold together and you can see

747
00:37:13.619 --> 00:37:17.159
why they cut down stuff like telling us what a winder is and why

748
00:37:17.159 --> 00:37:18.480
that's different from a smiler.

749
00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:19.739
Nobody cares.

750
00:37:19.800 --> 00:37:22.019
The allegory is more interesting than the details.

751
00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:22.980
Exactly.

752
00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:26.460
Absolutely And that's, again, the mythic quality, the mythics

753
00:37:26.460 --> 00:37:28.139
fairy tale storytelling of Moth.

754
00:37:28.199 --> 00:37:31.500
It's associative logic, it's not necessarily A to B to C in terms

755
00:37:31.500 --> 00:37:33.300
of the plot points and I'm all here for it.

756
00:37:33.360 --> 00:37:33.719
I love it.

757
00:37:33.719 --> 00:37:35.699
Can I just go back to Liston really quickly, though?

758
00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:36.300
Yeah.

759
00:37:36.300 --> 00:37:40.260
Has she got possibly the greatest line for a, you know, a sort of

760
00:37:40.260 --> 00:37:42.840
a cameo character in, I'm the bloody queen mate.

761
00:37:42.900 --> 00:37:43.860
Basically, I rule.

762
00:37:44.519 --> 00:37:46.920
That's a wonderful creation.

763
00:37:46.980 --> 00:37:49.199
I need to see that in a drag performance.

764
00:37:50.340 --> 00:37:55.380
And then you cut to the doctor, Amy, and Mandy, and they're

765
00:37:55.380 --> 00:38:00.239
kneeling before her. as she raises her weapon in the air.

766
00:38:00.300 --> 00:38:04.380
Matt Smith is looking at her like Pat Trouton was looking at Mary

767
00:38:04.380 --> 00:38:05.039
Peach.

768
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:07.139
Let's be honest.

769
00:38:07.260 --> 00:38:10.320
I think Stephen Moffat probably was too.

770
00:38:10.380 --> 00:38:12.599
This is the beginning of horny Matt Smith.

771
00:38:15.659 --> 00:38:18.420
This is the beginning of the horny 11th doctor, but he doesn't

772
00:38:18.420 --> 00:38:19.320
quite know what that means.

773
00:38:19.380 --> 00:38:20.340
Yes.

774
00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:22.380
That's why I don't hate it.

775
00:38:22.679 --> 00:38:28.860
The fact that is Matt Smith plays sexuality so awkwardly, like he

776
00:38:28.860 --> 00:38:30.599
literally has no idea what it is.

777
00:38:30.659 --> 00:38:33.780
The fact that he often does display sexuality is less

778
00:38:33.780 --> 00:38:34.860
uncomfortable because of that.

779
00:38:34.980 --> 00:38:36.719
Yes, yes.

780
00:38:36.780 --> 00:38:40.139
Yeah, I mean, this is something that FDA is going to be discussing

781
00:38:40.139 --> 00:38:44.340
over the next 2 years or so over and over again, I think, because

782
00:38:44.340 --> 00:38:46.019
I...

783
00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:49.380
Well, the big, there is a big problem, I think, in the Moffat era

784
00:38:49.380 --> 00:38:52.619
and it does have to do with sex and sexuality and gender roles and

785
00:38:52.619 --> 00:38:53.099
stuff like that.

786
00:38:53.159 --> 00:38:57.179
Um, but it's not quite there yet.

787
00:38:57.599 --> 00:39:01.079
I think it'd be a lot worse with David Tennant too, because David

788
00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:02.699
Tennant would play it sincerely.

789
00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:06.539
He'd play it very, very horny and it would be it would be awful.

790
00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:09.840
Well, he's not, he's quite sexually confident.

791
00:39:09.900 --> 00:39:10.500
I think.

792
00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:13.260
And we did come to the conclusion by the end of the specials that

793
00:39:13.260 --> 00:39:16.139
he was probably one season away from just being Austin Powers.

794
00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:23.159
Also with Liz 10, I find it interesting.

795
00:39:23.219 --> 00:39:26.340
She has a line where she says, my government is lying to me, but

796
00:39:26.340 --> 00:39:30.239
we never see a prime minister, we never see a minister.

797
00:39:30.300 --> 00:39:35.699
It seems like the UK has gone back to an absolute monarchy where

798
00:39:35.699 --> 00:39:39.179
the queen actually rules and has a say in what's happening.

799
00:39:39.239 --> 00:39:41.940
It's basically like QAnon.

800
00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:45.300
You've got all powerful monarch fighting the deep state.

801
00:39:47.880 --> 00:39:51.360
And there's a button chicken breast that gets rid of all the

802
00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:51.719
data.

803
00:39:53.579 --> 00:39:58.320
I think, though, that the government is represented essentially by

804
00:39:58.320 --> 00:39:59.400
is his name Hawthorne?

805
00:39:59.460 --> 00:40:01.260
Yeah, who's the theme of the headmaster?

806
00:40:01.980 --> 00:40:02.340
Yeah.

807
00:40:02.340 --> 00:40:02.940
Yeah.

808
00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:08.280
And just because he reads like, you know, he's a white guy, a

809
00:40:08.280 --> 00:40:12.719
certain age, you know, glasses, posh accent, all of that sort of

810
00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:13.019
thing.

811
00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:17.280
And he's always sort of sorrowfully explaining something to the to

812
00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:17.699
the queen.

813
00:40:17.760 --> 00:40:20.820
He does read, I think, a little bit like the Prime Minister.

814
00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:25.800
I think again, because the setting is so, um, fantastical and

815
00:40:25.800 --> 00:40:27.179
abstract and stuff.

816
00:40:27.239 --> 00:40:29.460
You know, we don't have government and police.

817
00:40:29.519 --> 00:40:33.480
We've got Hawthorne and the Winders and the, and the smilers and

818
00:40:33.480 --> 00:40:37.380
things that, that are representing sort of state violence and

819
00:40:37.380 --> 00:40:41.400
coercive state power, because that's something that doesn't get

820
00:40:41.400 --> 00:40:42.360
developed a lot.

821
00:40:42.420 --> 00:40:46.199
The doctor talks about this being a police state.

822
00:40:46.260 --> 00:40:49.019
And I'm not quite sure where that fits in.

823
00:40:49.079 --> 00:40:50.639
There's a very, very clever scene.

824
00:40:50.699 --> 00:40:55.619
Where the doctor deduces from the fact that Mandy is crying

825
00:40:55.619 --> 00:41:00.420
silently and everyone's not paying any attention to her that this

826
00:41:00.420 --> 00:41:01.559
is a police state.

827
00:41:01.619 --> 00:41:05.820
He goes straight from that thing to Britain is politically rotten

828
00:41:05.820 --> 00:41:07.079
and it's a police state.

829
00:41:07.139 --> 00:41:14.039
And does it have to be a police state because, um, because the

830
00:41:14.039 --> 00:41:18.960
system is founded on oppression to such a degree that if that's

831
00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:23.699
discovered, you know, there's the government's in a precarious

832
00:41:23.699 --> 00:41:24.300
situation.

833
00:41:24.360 --> 00:41:26.400
Or is it an austerity thing?

834
00:41:26.460 --> 00:41:30.360
Is it that they've had to go back to basics, bicycles and wind up

835
00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:31.139
lamps and stuff?

836
00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:35.159
Um, Is that the reason there's a police state?

837
00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:38.460
I think it's the former because it's a very two-faced thing.

838
00:41:38.519 --> 00:41:41.760
It's trying to create that facade that all of Starship UK is built

839
00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:43.739
on where everything's fine.

840
00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:46.380
Nothing's going wrong, but the head turns around and you see the

841
00:41:46.380 --> 00:41:46.679
truth.

842
00:41:46.739 --> 00:41:50.099
I think, actually, a good representation of the cops in general

843
00:41:50.099 --> 00:41:52.500
you know, because there's always that image of the smiling

844
00:41:52.500 --> 00:41:56.880
neighbourhood cop who will help you out and star on Brooklyn 99 or

845
00:41:56.880 --> 00:41:57.179
whatever.

846
00:41:57.239 --> 00:42:01.019
But really, they're all the ugly, uh, fellas on the other side of

847
00:42:01.019 --> 00:42:01.320
the head.

848
00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:04.199
I think that's a that's a good point.

849
00:42:04.260 --> 00:42:08.099
I'm probably of the opinion, though, that it's, um, both of them

850
00:42:08.099 --> 00:42:09.360
like it doesn't have to be one or the other.

851
00:42:09.420 --> 00:42:12.000
I think it can be the fact that it is austerity on this ship is

852
00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:15.539
you know, in a precarious state, but also that it is the

853
00:42:15.539 --> 00:42:19.380
inevitable byproduct of, of an oppressive tyranny, you know.

854
00:42:19.500 --> 00:42:23.280
Um, Terence Harteman, the demon headmasters effectively her

855
00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:25.619
chamberlain, and it's an absolute monarchy.

856
00:42:25.980 --> 00:42:28.260
I'm the bloody queen mate. basically our rule.

857
00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:32.820
Um, and it's more akin then to maybe to Liz the 1st England rather

858
00:42:32.820 --> 00:42:34.980
than the 2nd, but it's a good.

859
00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:35.699
Yeah, it's a fair point.

860
00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:36.300
I take yours as well.

861
00:42:37.019 --> 00:42:42.480
I'd be terribly hopeful that after this, Liz does set up like an

862
00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:45.360
actual government, or better yet, steps aside.

863
00:42:45.420 --> 00:42:47.579
She's been ruling for 100s of years.

864
00:42:47.639 --> 00:42:50.159
She can, she can get some me time now.

865
00:42:50.219 --> 00:42:52.019
She's back in episode 12 though.

866
00:42:52.079 --> 00:42:54.420
She's back in episode 12 in her.

867
00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:57.119
Well, maybe she's just a curator and that's why she's in the...

868
00:42:58.199 --> 00:43:00.300
She'd be great at curating.

869
00:43:00.360 --> 00:43:06.000
They did they did actually film, uh, Sophie Orkinito's bits for

870
00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:06.840
that episode.

871
00:43:06.960 --> 00:43:07.739
Oh, of course.

872
00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:10.019
But with someone standing in for Alex Kingston.

873
00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:12.119
And then when they film the Alex Kingston bit, say it's someone

874
00:43:12.119 --> 00:43:13.559
standing in for Sophie Okinido.

875
00:43:13.739 --> 00:43:19.860
Speaking of reshoots, this episode had quite a few, and you know

876
00:43:19.860 --> 00:43:22.679
how the 1st production block of Russell series with Keith Boke is

877
00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:25.019
kind of shrouded in secrecy and we don't know exactly what went

878
00:43:25.019 --> 00:43:25.260
wrong.

879
00:43:25.679 --> 00:43:27.840
I'll say for a rumour.

880
00:43:27.900 --> 00:43:34.440
That seems to be the block here because Andrew Gunn is not invited

881
00:43:34.440 --> 00:43:35.460
back to direction again.

882
00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:39.300
No, he does this and victory for Daleks.

883
00:43:39.780 --> 00:43:41.639
Victory of the Daleks.

884
00:43:41.639 --> 00:43:45.239
And I remember this as it happened in the UK.

885
00:43:45.300 --> 00:43:49.440
Victory of the Daleks 2 weeks before it was broadcast, had a 65

886
00:43:49.440 --> 00:43:50.460
minute slot.

887
00:43:50.519 --> 00:43:51.659
Oh, heavens.

888
00:43:51.719 --> 00:43:55.260
And about 10 days before broadcast, it was shortened to 45.

889
00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:56.460
Wow.

890
00:43:56.519 --> 00:43:59.820
And there's been, you know, that is a nightmare.

891
00:43:59.880 --> 00:44:04.199
And, you know, it's a bit like when the Rand is crying, because

892
00:44:04.199 --> 00:44:07.320
her boyfriend bought it, you know, the rumour is in the 65 minute

893
00:44:07.320 --> 00:44:10.199
cut, there was like 10 minutes of their relationship in there.

894
00:44:10.199 --> 00:44:12.179
And they're just like, okay, cut it out.

895
00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:13.139
The last line still makes sense.

896
00:44:13.199 --> 00:44:18.480
There's a fair bit cut out here, including the scene where the

897
00:44:18.480 --> 00:44:20.940
doctor discovers that none of the things are connected.

898
00:44:21.000 --> 00:44:24.659
That was completely reshot and that's not Sophie Okinido.

899
00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:25.440
Oh okay.

900
00:44:25.500 --> 00:44:26.280
Oh, wow.

901
00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:28.139
That is her standing because she wasn't available for the

902
00:44:28.139 --> 00:44:28.619
research.

903
00:44:28.679 --> 00:44:31.980
The reshoots were either directed by Andrew Smith.

904
00:44:32.039 --> 00:44:36.480
He did some of them, who did Flesh and Stone, Angels.

905
00:44:36.780 --> 00:44:38.820
Fantastic job.

906
00:44:38.880 --> 00:44:40.019
Yeah.

907
00:44:40.079 --> 00:44:44.820
But also, a lot of the reshoots were done by Eros Lynn.

908
00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:46.440
Ah, really?

909
00:44:46.500 --> 00:44:49.679
because they needed someone to get it done quickly.

910
00:44:49.739 --> 00:44:54.599
Um, and particularly um, his big edition because this wasn't

911
00:44:54.599 --> 00:44:55.860
initially in the script.

912
00:44:55.920 --> 00:44:57.599
So Andrew Gunn couldn't have shot it.

913
00:44:57.659 --> 00:45:02.340
Um, the big edition for Eros Lynn is that scene where they're

914
00:45:02.340 --> 00:45:03.480
staring out the window at the end.

915
00:45:03.960 --> 00:45:05.820
Oh, my God.

916
00:45:05.820 --> 00:45:06.840
Which he shot originally.

917
00:45:06.840 --> 00:45:08.340
Imagine this episode without that.

918
00:45:08.400 --> 00:45:09.539
That was beautiful.

919
00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:13.619
Most of the dialogue had been shot in the castle setting because

920
00:45:13.619 --> 00:45:17.400
they did use a real castle for the Tower of London. which is a

921
00:45:17.400 --> 00:45:17.880
dungeon.

922
00:45:17.940 --> 00:45:20.699
So again, you get that duality, the Tower of London is the lowest

923
00:45:20.699 --> 00:45:21.239
part of the city.

924
00:45:21.539 --> 00:45:26.760
But yeah, I think it was sort of a discussion between Steven and

925
00:45:26.760 --> 00:45:31.380
Eros of actually, how about we put a bit of time in?

926
00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:34.139
Oh, okay, if we're going to put a bit of time in between these

927
00:45:34.139 --> 00:45:35.579
scenes, we can move the location.

928
00:45:35.639 --> 00:45:37.440
How about we end on something really spectacular?

929
00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:41.280
And it really ties in back to her looking at the stars at the

930
00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:41.699
story.

931
00:45:41.820 --> 00:45:43.739
It gives it a really cohesive feeling.

932
00:45:44.099 --> 00:45:47.760
That's interesting though, because what I'd heard was that the

933
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:51.599
original drafts that had things cut out over, I don't know, someone

934
00:45:51.599 --> 00:45:54.840
was claiming to me that they were tighter and more cohesive, but

935
00:45:54.840 --> 00:45:58.139
losing stuff like that, I think I might be happy with the finished

936
00:45:58.139 --> 00:45:58.500
version.

937
00:45:58.619 --> 00:46:02.400
I absolutely adore that final scene and just the nature of the

938
00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:06.539
reconciliation, you know, just how warm it is and how absolutely

939
00:46:06.539 --> 00:46:11.639
necessary that is given how brutal a doctor is, you know, in his

940
00:46:11.639 --> 00:46:13.139
reaction to Amy's vote.

941
00:46:13.199 --> 00:46:15.300
You absolutely needed it.

942
00:46:15.360 --> 00:46:18.719
And they're both kind of the same height, they're both the same

943
00:46:18.719 --> 00:46:19.619
age.

944
00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:23.159
It's different, that relationship.

945
00:46:23.280 --> 00:46:26.159
And I don't know if it's in the writing or just if it is in the

946
00:46:26.159 --> 00:46:32.039
physicality of the actors, but they seem to me to be friends.

947
00:46:32.099 --> 00:46:35.219
Um, in that scene at least.

948
00:46:35.280 --> 00:46:38.400
They seem to me to be friends and equals in a way that we haven't

949
00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:39.780
really properly seen before.

950
00:46:41.159 --> 00:46:46.619
And I think part of that is because Matt Smith, with, with David

951
00:46:46.619 --> 00:46:50.219
Tennant, Tennant's doctor has a mask and that mask is, I'm happy

952
00:46:50.219 --> 00:46:51.780
all the time and I'm fine all the time.

953
00:46:51.840 --> 00:46:55.559
Matt Smith's mask is kind of the other way around.

954
00:46:55.619 --> 00:46:58.800
His mask is, I don't want to show you I'm angry, but any other

955
00:46:58.800 --> 00:47:00.539
emotion is going to be fully on my face.

956
00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:05.400
So when he hugs Amy at the end, and so we get the over the

957
00:47:05.400 --> 00:47:08.099
shoulder shot of her and she's doing a very human thing of, oh, I'm

958
00:47:08.099 --> 00:47:09.420
going to screw up my eyes so I don't cry.

959
00:47:09.420 --> 00:47:11.880
And then we cut to the doctor and the doctor is also screwing up

960
00:47:11.880 --> 00:47:13.260
his eyes so he doesn't cry.

961
00:47:13.260 --> 00:47:17.940
And that's what gets to me in that scene because, you know, it's

962
00:47:17.940 --> 00:47:20.519
kind of part of a Doctor Who companion write a passage in the new

963
00:47:20.519 --> 00:47:23.340
series that the 1st big injustice they come across, it's going to

964
00:47:23.340 --> 00:47:25.440
bring them to tears, you know?

965
00:47:25.500 --> 00:47:29.699
And so we expect that from maybe, but to see it from the doctor. is

966
00:47:29.699 --> 00:47:33.599
incredibly affecting and I think Matt and Karen both play that

967
00:47:33.599 --> 00:47:34.260
scene perfectly.

968
00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:35.400
I absolutely agree with you.

969
00:47:35.460 --> 00:47:38.159
If we had have had that scene straight off the back of Amy's

970
00:47:38.159 --> 00:47:39.539
solution and it's in a dark dungeon.

971
00:47:39.659 --> 00:47:42.719
It still would have been fine, and I'm sure they performed it

972
00:47:42.719 --> 00:47:46.019
perfectly well, but having a bit of a breather for us to get over

973
00:47:46.019 --> 00:47:49.679
that initial thing, and then come back with that emotion, and they

974
00:47:49.679 --> 00:47:51.420
both underplay it beautifully.

975
00:47:51.480 --> 00:47:54.300
Like, you know, imagine Tennant.

976
00:47:54.360 --> 00:47:58.139
You could have killed everyone on this ship, governor.

977
00:47:58.199 --> 00:47:59.880
Apples and pears, apples.

978
00:48:13.019 --> 00:48:17.579
How do we feel about that resolution at the end and the effect

979
00:48:17.579 --> 00:48:19.500
that it has on the allegory?

980
00:48:19.500 --> 00:48:25.380
Because what we've discovered is that the Star Whale had come to

981
00:48:25.380 --> 00:48:25.739
help.

982
00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:30.900
And they had no need to sort of trap and torture it.

983
00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:34.679
Now that they've spent 100s of years of trapping and torturing it

984
00:48:34.679 --> 00:48:38.699
and then they stop and then it's kind of okay with that.

985
00:48:39.719 --> 00:48:42.360
Does anyone else have a problem with that?

986
00:48:42.840 --> 00:48:45.119
I mean, it's simplistic.

987
00:48:45.179 --> 00:48:48.719
But it's also a very simple allegory.

988
00:48:48.780 --> 00:48:50.880
I think saying stop oppressing people.

989
00:48:50.940 --> 00:48:55.679
People want to contribute to each other without being oppressed is

990
00:48:55.679 --> 00:48:56.519
a fair message.

991
00:48:56.579 --> 00:48:59.400
And I think it does a bit of legwork to try to justify that in

992
00:48:59.400 --> 00:49:02.880
context by saying the, um, Star Whale is the last of its kind and

993
00:49:02.880 --> 00:49:04.739
it really just wants to do one more altruistic thing.

994
00:49:04.800 --> 00:49:07.019
I'm with you on that, Kevin.

995
00:49:07.079 --> 00:49:10.739
And I think it's, it's again, it's the um, tying of the space fell

996
00:49:10.739 --> 00:49:14.099
to the doctor, not necessarily to the oppressed people, which it

997
00:49:14.099 --> 00:49:18.000
probably, um, is where it falls flat, um, for yourself, Nathan.

998
00:49:18.059 --> 00:49:21.599
Because it, it, to me, it is no different to the scene of, you

999
00:49:21.599 --> 00:49:24.599
know, the talk doctor on Clara in the Tartars where it says, you

1000
00:49:24.599 --> 00:49:26.460
know, you betrayed my trust, you betrayed our friendship, you

1001
00:49:26.460 --> 00:49:29.820
betrayed, um, everything I ever stood for.

1002
00:49:29.880 --> 00:49:33.059
Do you think I care for you so little that betraying me would make

1003
00:49:33.059 --> 00:49:33.599
a difference.

1004
00:49:33.659 --> 00:49:36.360
I think that's uh, that's what it refers to.

1005
00:49:36.420 --> 00:49:37.440
That's the nature of the doctor.

1006
00:49:37.500 --> 00:49:39.000
Someone so old, so kind.

1007
00:49:39.059 --> 00:49:40.739
And so ultimately forgiving.

1008
00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:45.300
I think you're exactly right, Stephen, because, you know, you go

1009
00:49:45.300 --> 00:49:50.400
back, even in the classic series, the 5th doctor, overtly states, I

1010
00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:54.239
sometimes wonder why I care for the species of this stupid little

1011
00:49:54.239 --> 00:49:55.139
planet so much.

1012
00:49:55.199 --> 00:49:59.519
And it's like no matter how many times we screw up, the doctor is

1013
00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:01.440
still going to come through and try and save us.

1014
00:50:01.500 --> 00:50:04.920
And in a way that culminates in Voyage of the Damned, when David

1015
00:50:04.920 --> 00:50:06.000
Tennant became Jesus.

1016
00:50:07.380 --> 00:50:10.800
Actually, twice, you know, twice in a row.

1017
00:50:10.920 --> 00:50:14.159
The last of the time towards he becomes Jesus.

1018
00:50:14.219 --> 00:50:17.639
And then the sound of, and the thing is, people complained.

1019
00:50:17.699 --> 00:50:18.900
They headed up in a church.

1020
00:50:19.019 --> 00:50:19.980
Yeah, the stained glass.

1021
00:50:20.039 --> 00:50:21.599
It was very nice stained glass.

1022
00:50:21.659 --> 00:50:21.960
Yes.

1023
00:50:21.960 --> 00:50:26.699
I remember some very silly religious groups complained when Voyage

1024
00:50:26.699 --> 00:50:27.360
of the Damn went out.

1025
00:50:27.420 --> 00:50:30.360
It's like, this has Jesus iconography, and Russell T. Xavier's

1026
00:50:30.360 --> 00:50:32.699
response was basically, did you not see last of the time?

1027
00:50:34.320 --> 00:50:39.059
In my mind, there's 2 ways to sort of justify why the Space World

1028
00:50:39.059 --> 00:50:39.840
will continue to help.

1029
00:50:39.900 --> 00:50:42.719
And one of them, as you say, Stephen, is, it's like the doctor and

1030
00:50:42.719 --> 00:50:46.380
the doctor will always help, regardless of how crap we are

1031
00:50:46.380 --> 00:50:46.800
sometimes.

1032
00:50:47.219 --> 00:50:52.980
The other one is that this is an alien so different in its

1033
00:50:52.980 --> 00:50:58.800
perceptions of the universe that we can't ascribe our own morality

1034
00:50:58.800 --> 00:51:00.420
to it and what a human would do it.

1035
00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:03.659
Because I was sitting here thinking, you know, the jokey way to

1036
00:51:03.659 --> 00:51:05.579
express that is, well, it's a giant goldfish.

1037
00:51:05.639 --> 00:51:06.300
It doesn't remember.

1038
00:51:06.420 --> 00:51:08.940
It doesn't remember the last 200 years.

1039
00:51:09.000 --> 00:51:13.079
But, but moreover, if this is a creature that's gone, I am going

1040
00:51:13.079 --> 00:51:18.059
to dedicate my existence to carrying 60000000 people throughout

1041
00:51:18.059 --> 00:51:20.219
space for an indeterminate period of time.

1042
00:51:20.280 --> 00:51:23.219
It's it's like one of the great old ones.

1043
00:51:23.280 --> 00:51:25.739
It doesn't, it doesn't have our thought process.

1044
00:51:26.400 --> 00:51:30.300
Yeah, but if you're thinking about this in terms of like a

1045
00:51:30.300 --> 00:51:33.000
allegory to oppressed people, it does have shortcomings.

1046
00:51:33.059 --> 00:51:35.099
There's not no talking preparations or anything.

1047
00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:37.500
We don't even know if they're going to take that damn room out of

1048
00:51:37.500 --> 00:51:38.099
its head.

1049
00:51:38.159 --> 00:51:41.159
Yeah, it's not...

1050
00:51:41.280 --> 00:51:47.219
I actually think too, it is in a children's story, it's the

1051
00:51:47.219 --> 00:51:50.099
misunderstood monster, you know, it's the monster that everyone's

1052
00:51:50.099 --> 00:51:53.760
scared of that we discover is friendly all along.

1053
00:51:53.760 --> 00:51:59.340
And so it is operating, as you were saying before, Stephen, on

1054
00:51:59.340 --> 00:52:03.719
story logic or associative logic rather than actual logic.

1055
00:52:03.780 --> 00:52:09.840
And so the monster doesn't bear any grudges, um, because it is, you

1056
00:52:09.840 --> 00:52:11.039
know, a misunderstood.

1057
00:52:11.099 --> 00:52:12.420
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1058
00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:17.579
But I agree with you, Kevin, that it does have, it's where the

1059
00:52:17.579 --> 00:52:23.280
kind of, um, the allegory breaks down a little bit and and instead

1060
00:52:23.280 --> 00:52:25.440
the logic of a fairy tale takes over.

1061
00:52:25.500 --> 00:52:27.360
The allegory goes on a bit of holiday.

1062
00:52:27.420 --> 00:52:30.599
And the breaking down is no worse than like, uh, yeah, the Zygons

1063
00:52:30.599 --> 00:52:32.699
can fit in, but they've got to conform to humanity for all

1064
00:52:32.699 --> 00:52:33.059
eternity.

1065
00:52:33.119 --> 00:52:33.780
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1066
00:52:33.840 --> 00:52:34.619
No worse than that.

1067
00:52:34.679 --> 00:52:40.619
I wonder if there's an allegory in Doctor Who that doesn't fall

1068
00:52:40.619 --> 00:52:44.639
down in some way because it's, you know, it's hard to do a

1069
00:52:44.639 --> 00:52:46.019
perfectly constructed allegory.

1070
00:52:46.079 --> 00:52:50.460
I'd say almost impossible without, you know, making it satire.

1071
00:52:50.519 --> 00:52:55.079
Um, And as allegories go.

1072
00:52:55.139 --> 00:52:56.639
This is pretty complete.

1073
00:52:56.760 --> 00:52:57.659
Yeah.

1074
00:52:57.659 --> 00:53:00.900
Like, I know I complained about the ending before, but it that's

1075
00:53:00.900 --> 00:53:02.280
that's a minor thing.

1076
00:53:02.340 --> 00:53:06.300
Like me having to write that essay in hating to love, as I say, was

1077
00:53:06.300 --> 00:53:07.380
because I was assigned it.

1078
00:53:07.380 --> 00:53:10.260
And so I had to watch it looking for what people were complaining

1079
00:53:10.260 --> 00:53:10.679
about.

1080
00:53:10.739 --> 00:53:16.559
Stephen Moffat has named this story as his biggest regret. that it

1081
00:53:16.559 --> 00:53:18.780
didn't come off the way he wanted it to.

1082
00:53:18.840 --> 00:53:22.800
And I think he's being really too harsh on himself because it's

1083
00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:27.300
like, I think really it achieves 90% of what it's set out to do

1084
00:53:27.300 --> 00:53:29.519
and a lot of Dog 2 stories don't do that.

1085
00:53:29.940 --> 00:53:32.460
It's a personal favourite of mine.

1086
00:53:32.519 --> 00:53:34.019
I absolutely adore.

1087
00:53:34.079 --> 00:53:35.639
I love Moffat when it goes political.

1088
00:53:35.699 --> 00:53:37.920
I like oxygen a great deal as well.

1089
00:53:37.980 --> 00:53:42.420
But oxygen has that, you know, is very definitely got capitalism

1090
00:53:42.420 --> 00:53:43.559
as its target.

1091
00:53:43.619 --> 00:53:48.059
Whereas this is about oppression more generally, and you can tie

1092
00:53:48.059 --> 00:53:52.139
it down as you were before, Stephen, to the British Empire or the

1093
00:53:52.139 --> 00:53:53.820
Tories or austerity or whatever.

1094
00:53:53.880 --> 00:53:57.360
But I think it's it's a more general truth.

1095
00:53:58.019 --> 00:54:00.599
And I really like that.

1096
00:54:00.659 --> 00:54:05.340
You talked about Brothers Karamazov before, but the thing it

1097
00:54:05.340 --> 00:54:08.880
reminded me most of was Ursula Le Guin's story, the ones who walk

1098
00:54:08.880 --> 00:54:09.960
away from Omelus.

1099
00:54:10.019 --> 00:54:10.920
Do any of you know that?

1100
00:54:10.980 --> 00:54:12.659
No, I don't.

1101
00:54:12.659 --> 00:54:13.019
I know.

1102
00:54:13.019 --> 00:54:14.400
I haven't read that one.

1103
00:54:14.460 --> 00:54:16.019
It's a very short story.

1104
00:54:16.079 --> 00:54:17.460
And it's beautiful.

1105
00:54:17.519 --> 00:54:22.920
I can't give it justice in my description of it here, and I'll try

1106
00:54:22.920 --> 00:54:25.440
and find a copy online and put it in the show notes.

1107
00:54:25.500 --> 00:54:31.320
Um, but it posits a world where a beautiful sort of fantasy

1108
00:54:31.320 --> 00:54:35.519
kingdom that's hugely prosperous, but everyone is aware that the

1109
00:54:35.519 --> 00:54:40.199
prosperity of the kingdom is contingent entirely on the repeated

1110
00:54:40.199 --> 00:54:43.380
um, imiseration of a small child.

1111
00:54:43.440 --> 00:54:48.059
And it's just heartbreaking to read.

1112
00:54:48.599 --> 00:54:52.260
And it presents you with that choice.

1113
00:54:52.320 --> 00:54:59.099
Do you go back and join the kingdom and continue to be complicit

1114
00:54:59.099 --> 00:55:03.179
in the emiseration of this child or do you walk away?

1115
00:55:03.239 --> 00:55:06.780
Um, it's absolutely worth reading.

1116
00:55:06.840 --> 00:55:12.000
And I would be surprised if Moffatt wasn't aware of it, because

1117
00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:14.099
the parallels are really very strong.

1118
00:55:38.460 --> 00:55:41.880
Well, they listen, that's all we have time for this week.

1119
00:55:41.940 --> 00:55:45.239
We'll be back next week to find out what Great Britain's most

1120
00:55:45.239 --> 00:55:48.960
celebrated racist Prime Minister has been getting up to in victory

1121
00:55:48.960 --> 00:55:49.679
of the Daleks.

1122
00:55:49.739 --> 00:55:51.300
Can you narrow it down?

1123
00:55:51.420 --> 00:55:53.519
Well, the most racist one.

1124
00:55:54.179 --> 00:55:56.579
Can you narrow it down?

1125
00:55:56.880 --> 00:56:00.420
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1126
00:56:00.420 --> 00:56:03.659
and you can keep up with us at flights or entirety on Facebook, at

1127
00:56:03.659 --> 00:56:07.739
FDE Podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety

1128
00:56:06.239 --> 00:56:10.920
com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, and

1129
00:56:10.920 --> 00:56:12.179
Jody interterra.

1130
00:56:12.539 --> 00:56:16.500
Stephen, is there anything that you would like to plug?

1131
00:56:16.679 --> 00:56:20.280
Um, well, if you want to hear more of me, and I'm not sure if you

1132
00:56:20.280 --> 00:56:25.860
do, but if you do, head over to new to who podcast, uh, www

1133
00:56:23.940 --> 00:56:28.500
noodahoo.com, uh, also on Twitter at Utahoo podcast.

1134
00:56:28.559 --> 00:56:29.820
Brilliant.

1135
00:56:29.880 --> 00:56:31.440
And Kevin, where can people find you?

1136
00:56:31.500 --> 00:56:37.679
Uh, well, I am on Twitter at Scribble Script with 2 S's in the

1137
00:56:37.679 --> 00:56:41.760
middle because Scribbles, Script, and uh, I've been working on

1138
00:56:41.760 --> 00:56:45.420
some 12th doctor fan audios that are on YouTube.

1139
00:56:45.480 --> 00:56:49.440
I can't remember the exact username for it, but if you search 12th

1140
00:56:49.440 --> 00:56:52.079
doctor fan audios, Christmas alone, you'll get the 1st episode.

1141
00:56:52.139 --> 00:56:57.480
Also, I just co-wrote a book thing that I totally forgot about.

1142
00:56:57.659 --> 00:57:02.880
Um, A friend of mine, Lawrence and I, over the past like year or

1143
00:57:02.880 --> 00:57:05.880
so in pandemic, have just bounced ideas off to write a couple

1144
00:57:05.880 --> 00:57:07.260
trashy comedy plays.

1145
00:57:07.320 --> 00:57:10.079
Not for kids, but very fun.

1146
00:57:10.139 --> 00:57:14.099
They're called threesome, and you can find them on Amazon to

1147
00:57:14.099 --> 00:57:17.579
search threesome, Kevin Bernard and Lawrence Watts.

1148
00:57:17.639 --> 00:57:19.980
So, yeah, buy my book.

1149
00:57:20.039 --> 00:57:23.340
Bring it. put that in the show notes so people can go there.

1150
00:57:23.400 --> 00:57:24.539
All right.

1151
00:57:24.599 --> 00:57:28.500
So, until next time, may you always vote to protest.

1152
00:57:28.559 --> 00:57:31.500
Or if you're the queen, ma'am, to abdicate.

1153
00:57:31.559 --> 00:57:33.960
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1154
00:57:34.079 --> 00:57:36.059
I'm abdicating right now.

1155
00:57:36.119 --> 00:57:36.420
Good night.

1156
00:57:36.480 --> 00:57:37.500
See you.

1157
00:57:37.500 --> 00:57:38.039
Good night.

1158
00:57:41.940 --> 00:57:45.659
That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Kevin

1159
00:57:45.659 --> 00:57:49.199
Bernard, Stephen from New to Who, and Brendan Jones, Themed Ranger

1160
00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:50.400
by Cameron Lamb.

1161
00:57:50.460 --> 00:57:53.940
This episode, Make a Better Choice, was recorded on the 24th of

1162
00:57:53.940 --> 00:57:57.000
January 2021 and released on the 21st of March.

1163
00:58:00.960 --> 00:58:04.619
The governance of the Western world would like to announce that to

1164
00:58:04.619 --> 00:58:08.460
reduce voter confusion in future elections, the protest option

1165
00:58:08.460 --> 00:58:09.179
will be removed.

1166
00:58:09.239 --> 00:58:13.500
We hope you continue to enjoy the guilt free exercise of your

1167
00:58:13.500 --> 00:58:14.699
democratic rights.

1168
00:58:18.000 --> 00:58:20.219
Do we have an out?

1169
00:58:21.900 --> 00:58:26.579
Has anyone got anything they'd like to say about the story that

1170
00:58:26.579 --> 00:58:27.360
they haven't already said?

1171
00:58:27.780 --> 00:58:31.380
I like that the Sonic screwdriver lit up like a flashlight with

1172
00:58:31.380 --> 00:58:32.219
the white little N.

1173
00:58:33.179 --> 00:58:36.420
I noticed that for the 1st time, this time.

1174
00:58:38.099 --> 00:58:42.239
The only other thing literally, and we've ticked off so much, which

1175
00:58:42.239 --> 00:58:45.780
is amazing to me in such a good chat, is, did anyone pick up on

1176
00:58:45.780 --> 00:58:49.739
the sort of Chris Nolan Memento vibes of the Liz 10 subplot?

1177
00:58:49.800 --> 00:58:52.079
It's that whole thing about where she's trying to uncover the

1178
00:58:52.079 --> 00:58:54.119
secrets that she herself created.

1179
00:58:54.179 --> 00:58:56.760
Yeah, yeah. and the clue is the mask.

1180
00:58:56.820 --> 00:59:00.239
And yeah, it's it sort of really put me in mind of that.

1181
00:59:00.300 --> 00:59:03.659
And also, um, part 4 rooftain of the Daleks.

1182
00:59:03.719 --> 00:59:04.559
You did it yourselves.

1183
00:59:04.619 --> 00:59:06.840
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1184
00:59:07.079 --> 00:59:10.860
I have to ask, are there masks that really just fit on your face

1185
00:59:10.860 --> 00:59:11.340
like that?

1186
00:59:11.400 --> 00:59:16.260
I think if you're if you're super royal, you can afford, you know

1187
00:59:16.260 --> 00:59:20.460
the special adhesive porcelain that no one else has access to.

1188
00:59:20.519 --> 00:59:21.659
Yeah.

1189
00:59:21.719 --> 00:59:26.940
I did, I did also, I did also wonder watching it this time.

1190
00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:32.699
It's like, okay, we have a black monarch who can only go out in

1191
00:59:32.699 --> 00:59:34.920
public wearing a white mask.

1192
00:59:35.280 --> 00:59:37.559
But she is on all the stats.

1193
00:59:37.619 --> 00:59:39.059
That's the other line that I really like.

1194
00:59:39.239 --> 00:59:42.539
The reason that they've slowed to metabolism is it keeps her

1195
00:59:42.539 --> 00:59:43.440
looking like the stamps.

1196
00:59:43.559 --> 00:59:44.039
Yeah.

1197
00:59:44.099 --> 00:59:46.019
Like everyone knows what she looks like.

1198
00:59:46.079 --> 00:59:49.920
And to be fair, when she takes off the mask, like Mandy is so

1199
00:59:49.920 --> 00:59:51.780
pleased to see Her Majesty, the Queen.

1200
00:59:51.840 --> 00:59:53.219
Is she though?

1201
00:59:53.219 --> 00:59:56.460
She makes this like strange face at first, which I thought was

1202
00:59:56.460 --> 00:59:57.179
hilarious.

1203
00:59:57.780 --> 01:00:00.420
It's sort of like, what is going on?

1204
01:00:00.420 --> 01:00:01.019
Shock.

1205
01:00:01.860 --> 01:00:06.659
Something that was cut, an exchange I really liked between Liz 10

1206
01:00:06.659 --> 01:00:10.679
and Mandy is when they're on their way to rescue the doctor and

1207
01:00:10.679 --> 01:00:14.159
Amy from the space whale overflow tube.

1208
01:00:14.219 --> 01:00:19.199
And, um, there's sort of, and there's, there's a bit of chat there

1209
01:00:19.199 --> 01:00:21.179
of how she's tracking them.

1210
01:00:21.239 --> 01:00:22.920
Oh, I put a tracking device on him, blah, blah, blah.

1211
01:00:22.980 --> 01:00:24.480
And she says to Mandy, are you all right?

1212
01:00:24.539 --> 01:00:26.099
And Mandy says, no, no, I'm very scared.

1213
01:00:26.159 --> 01:00:29.219
And Liz 10 says, um, Excellent.

1214
01:00:29.280 --> 01:00:30.000
I like that.

1215
01:00:30.840 --> 01:00:32.699
She's like, excellent.

1216
01:00:32.760 --> 01:00:33.960
I don't like people who aren't scared.

1217
01:00:34.019 --> 01:00:35.880
Mandy's like, what do you mean?

1218
01:00:35.940 --> 01:00:37.079
I thought you'd like brave people.

1219
01:00:37.139 --> 01:00:39.000
And Liz 10 says, I'll put it another way.

1220
01:00:39.059 --> 01:00:40.380
I like people who are honest.

1221
01:00:40.440 --> 01:00:42.659
And that's why when they walk in.

1222
01:00:42.719 --> 01:00:44.400
She says, this is Mandy.

1223
01:00:44.460 --> 01:00:45.119
She's very brave.

1224
01:00:45.840 --> 01:00:48.119
Oh, that's cute.

1225
01:00:48.179 --> 01:00:48.659
It's cute.

1226
01:00:48.719 --> 01:00:50.519
And it's, you know, it's a shame we lost it.

1227
01:00:50.579 --> 01:00:56.099
But I do wonder if sort of Moffatt's early edits of these were

1228
01:00:56.099 --> 01:00:58.440
like, okay, let's chuck everything in and see what we get.

1229
01:00:58.500 --> 01:00:59.940
An hour and 15 minutes?

1230
01:01:00.480 --> 01:01:04.199
Okay, BBC, can we have an hour and 15?

1231
01:01:04.260 --> 01:01:05.099
No, no, don't shout.

1232
01:01:05.159 --> 01:01:06.000
Please don't shout at me.

1233
01:01:06.059 --> 01:01:06.480
Okay.

1234
01:01:06.539 --> 01:01:08.460
Can we get it down to 45?

1235
01:01:10.199 --> 01:01:13.139
Well, I think we have a tag, to be honest.

1236
01:01:13.199 --> 01:01:18.119
I'm going to do the do the closing things and I'll ask you to plug

1237
01:01:18.119 --> 01:01:20.159
and then thank you very much for listening a good night in the

1238
01:01:20.159 --> 01:01:20.579
same order.

1239
01:01:20.639 --> 01:01:21.179
Is that all right?