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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 14:53:24

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast consistently surprised that all this is what most people decided to vote for.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Stephen.

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And I'm Kevin.

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Well, it's the year 3290, and the sun itself has turned against us, and so some of us have stayed behind on a space station to be eaten by wasps, while others are facing a still more terrible fate, participation in the British political system.

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Will we be complicit or will we be the ones who walk away?

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Let's find out as we face the beast below.

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At least no one's getting infected by typhoid dodo in this episode.

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That's right.

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They got to face whatever McClintock candy burgers are, though.

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I mean, it's got to.

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So I guess this picks up immediately or more or less immediately after the 11th hour?

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There was that little minisode set between the two, right, where the doctor shoves Amy out the Tardis.

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Oh yes, that's right.

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That's right.

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Totally unnecessary.

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I'm glad they cut it But I mean, how beautiful is that opening?

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I mean, for one thing, we don't get voiceovers that often with the companions like 1st person just telling us about themselves, but just for that beautiful shot of Amy drifting in space, the doctor holding her leg.

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It's just so different, so fresh and I always get swept up by it.

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It is that fairy tale thing, isn't it?

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You know, she's flying, someone's holding her ankle.

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It's like Peter Pan or something.

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She's in her nightdress.

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There's the night sky.

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And so we get a 1st person narrative because for Moffatt.

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Everything's about telling stories.

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It's also wonderful that as you see on Doctor Who Confidential, as usual, to achieve their shot, they chunk Karen Gillen in a pool and say, look serene.

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Go on the water and look serene.

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We just need we just need the hair to act.

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You just look serene dear while you're holding your breath.

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I did actually wonder about that.

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But she doesn't look at all wet, so it's the scooty minister school of floating in space acting.

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Yeah, yeah.

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It is a beautiful, beautiful scene.

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It really is.

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I think, I mean, this is, if you, if you like, the Moffat version of the end of the world, and I think you alluded to that in the introduction there, Nathan, as well.

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And as such, as that sort of continuity free 2nd episode.

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It really does a lot to set the tone.

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And it is very much fairy tale in the sense that, you know, Russell, um, gives the space aliens, but it also gives us a human heart.

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And at the end, you know, it's the doctor in rose eating chips in Trafalgar Square.

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But here it's, it's much more than that. something so different.

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We've got that sort of associative logic that sort of comes with that fairy tale sort of genre.

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And I'm all here for it.

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Like right from that 1st scene, um, that we have in the episode proper after the cold open, which I guess we'll talk about later, but also that, that sort of final sequence where they're looking out over the starship UK through those giant windows, which I think, again, calls to mind end of the world, you know, the sort of giant windows looking out over the, over the earth.

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I think it's interesting you imagine like how much this owes to the end of the world because I was thinking structurally, it's got a lot the same, the way it splits the doctor and Amy into investigations.

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I mean, you've got sort of the similar thing to Jabe with Liz 10, where she knows more about the doctor's past.

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She's kind of more of an authority figure, more of a figure of legend where she can bounce off with him on his level, whereas Amy pairs off with instead of a working class woman, a little girl, which I guess sums up the difference between Moffatt and Davies.

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Absolutely So I think it's really instructive and illustrative of what's to come and whether that's for ill or for good, I think, you know, the listener can can decide, but it's really very much a mission statement right from the start.

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And I think, yeah, Beast Below does so much heavy lifting in terms of setting up the tone for the era to come.

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I do remember at the time, um, this episode came in for some criticism because it's a lot more straightforward and linear than we had expected from Stephen Moffatt.

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And I just remember thinking when it was announced he was going to take over.

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It's like, okay, he's going to be doing 6 or 7 episodes a year.

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They're not all going to be the girl in the fireplace or silence in the library.

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He's going to occasionally do those things he's famous for.

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But when you have to write 6 episodes a year.

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Some of them have to be a straightforward action adventure that if someone only tunes in that week, they can sink their teeth into.

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And I think this is a really good example of Moffatt doing a straightforward narrative that is still involving and has good characters.

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Except, though, the idea of the beast below changes, like we're wrong about initially what we think the beast below might mean.

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Um, and, um, we get the sort of very moffity things like the fact that Liz 10 has been raining for 100s of years and the doc is able to work that out.

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And the sequence around Amy's loss of memory as well.

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So it still does have some moffty things in it, I think.

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I mean, that memory sequences.

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He literally just mined that the next season for an entire monster.

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It's the same exact beats as any silence scene ever.

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I actually found it really interesting that he's not playing as much on his reputation for like puzzle work plots, but he's still very much going for the horror that he was famous for early on.

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Like, you wouldn't know him as a sitcom writer from this at all, or from any of his previous stories really, except maybe blink.

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Like, the whole opening sequence with like the ominous kid rhyme and all that and like the elevator door opening up to hell.

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It doesn't make any logical sense that any of this is happening.

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It's just there because it's creepy.

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Yeah.

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It is astonishing what lengths he has to go to to rope that scene into what's actually going on.

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So it turns out we feed naughty children to the beast, but it refuses to eat them or something.

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But we keep feeding them anyway, damn it.

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It'll have to know these days. yeah exactly.

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It's like, oh yes, it doesn't hate the children.

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Then why are you still sending the children down there?

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Oh, you know, it's funny.

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Look, we built we built the fake floor in the lifts.

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We've got to use it for something.

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Are we meant to not send the children down there?

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I guess it also makes a difference from even future UK governments not wanting to feed children. to a beast below, so maybe there's some sort of prescience there as well.

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I thought they didn't want to feed children full start.

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I mean, that's the thing.

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In the mouth of the beast, you have sort of half cabbages in there, which is exactly what they're sending out to children right now.

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Half a cabbage and a can of tuna emptied into a plastic cup with cling wrap over the top.

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And I'm not exaggerating for effect.

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No, no.

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I think in general, the politics of this aged very well.

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I mean, I think also Moffatt recycles the politics for this a lot across his era.

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I think, in fact, there's another story later on in his era.

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He basically minds beat for beat in terms of the allegories here, but I think it aged very well and every time I watch it, I think, oh damn, this hits far too close to home.

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It's funny, isn't it?

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Because you don't actually think of Moffat as a political writer in the same way that Davies is.

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The end of the world has rich people partying while the world is destroyed and an insurance scam and the doctor sort of firing off a few snide comments about people being rich or people being important.

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And you've got a working class doctor here where, you know, Matt Smith is very much a posh young man.

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But the politics is clever in the sense that it's it's quite general.

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So, what I think of is the savages, um, where there's no particular oppressive system that it is satirising, although there is some sort of race stuff around the original conception of it, but that doesn't really kind of make it a screen.

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It is just the doctor's joy at smashing an oppressive system.

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And his door belittling dodo.

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Well, yeah, we all love that.

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Yeah, I was going to say, Kevin, you've got something to say on the savage.

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Not a fan.

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But here, the idea that all of us live lives where we benefit from the emiseration of other people, and we prefer not to think about that, and we continue to be complicit in perpetuating the systems that enable that.

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I think that's stronger and fiercer satire than, you know, even Planet of the Oud or something like that.

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I entirely agree.

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I absolutely think you're right.

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So I think this is actually one of Moffat's most brazenly political stories in the way that it absolutely points to that dark heart of Britain's colonialist past, and the doctor sort of stands against that.

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He says, this is what I do every day.

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We're bringing down the government.

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Hello, Andrew Hartwell.

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Oh my god, yeah.

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Absolutely a mission statement.

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And, you know, we'll talk about perhaps the choice and the resolution and significance of that.

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But, you know, what's really telling is that there's this moment where the doctor says the cry of the magabtra, uh, or the, uh, the giant space whale, um, can't be heard to, to, um, in the range of human hearing, but with the sonic screwdriver.

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Yeah, so I was at the same time.

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Yeah.

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With this Planet of the Earth.

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Yeah, absolutely. does exactly the same trick and we cannot stand that noise even for a moment.

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But that is, if you like, I think, allegorical for essentially the cry of everyone who's been, you know, dispossessed and died in the name of the empire.

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I think it's a hugely, and, you know, very strongly political story, wrapped up in a very fairy tale kind of, um, uh, rapping, I think.

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So, um, yeah, there is definitely a hugely political aspect of this.

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And I just want to say I have a pet theory that I don't think Moffatt even realises he does this, but he recycles this story wholesale as an allegory in the Zygon 2 parter.

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Oh.

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There's the same recycling of the memories being erased for the cyclical oppression being perpetuated.

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There's the same series of buttons to make decisions.

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Yeah.

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He's very much going back to the same minefield, but I think it works a lot better here than it does when he tries to force it into our present moment with refugee politics and things.

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Yeah, the fact that this is so allegorical in the sense that it is in a sort of fantasy world where things stand for things.

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And so you get to see a version of voting that's just boiled down to the basic decision, which is, um, you protest or you forget, you know, that's, so what he's saying and it's explicit in the dialogue, isn't it?

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We do this every 5 years.

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We go into a booth and we make this choice and we basically all say forget.

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Remember the threshold is one%.

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And what a great binary that is.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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It's not just you vote for the right people or the wrong people. is you are actively making a choice to stand up against things or you're letting them happen.

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That's the message we all need a lot more of.

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Look how it resolves, right?

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Because there's actually not 2 choices, but the 3 that the doctor accounts out.

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And then there's actually a 4th and this is almost like the 4th act, if you like, of the story.

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And that is that there's always a better way.

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We might get into this later on, I think.

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But isn't it telling that it's the companion who alerts the doctor to that better way?

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And it's companion again that we'll see, I guess, in the 50s, which does exactly the same thing, that it's not just that we have these 2 choices and it's the case of choosing between the lesser of 2 evils.

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There's always a better way to do things.

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I mean, but that's an absolute moffet thing to do, isn't it?

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We're telling a particular type of story and then we say, no, this isn't good enough.

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Not this world or this system of oppression or these villains or whatever aren't good enough, but this story isn't good enough.

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This story has to end a different way.

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And so we're going to find a way of making it do that.

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And 0 my god, how bleak would it have been if the doctor did euthanize a space whale?

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Yeah, yeah.

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I was like an early teenager watching this.

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I was like, 0 man, that is dark.

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And I believe they were going to go for it at the time.

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I do remember at the time someone pointing out, it's like, okay, okay.

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Yeah, the doctor's being really cruel here, but please keep in mind, this is the same day as the end of time for him.

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He has not had enough.

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It needs to go have a sleep.

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It's probably a little bit.

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I'd be very cranky after that much, John Sam.

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Wow.

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He's probably still got a little bit of like Timothy Dalton spit on.

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We all do.

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Oh, please.

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Well, I guess he's got a whale on top of that now.

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And can I just say the sound effect during the vomiting sequence with the whale?

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I forgot how good they were.

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I was bursting out loud.

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Oh, because we come away, we cut away, don't we?

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To the exterior, to an exterior shot of the ship and hear the sort of massive bathing sound.

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I have to say that, you know, we're talking about the scene where the doctor is about to put the whale to sleep.

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And the, the amazing thing about that is the performance in the, we're standing in a mouth scene where the doctor is super excited and and that whole exchange about the next word being a bit of a scary word and the word is tongue and like, like, it's so unexpected and so brilliant.

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It's so Moffin, he's so he's so clever with the dialogue.

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And Matt is relishing it.

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Like he's loving it and his doctor has been so enthusiastic and so childlike.

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You know, he spent 15 minutes last week talking to a child and being like a child, that when he's forced to um, consider killing the whale.

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He shouts for the very 1st time.

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And I think it's so striking.

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It's almost a jump scare.

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It's so, so good.

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It's the 1st time you see how scary he can be.

183
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I mean, this can be a scary doctor.

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Yeah, look, I think he's super scary when he scares the attracti off last week and just says basically wrong and his jaw is clenched, but he absolutely underplays it.

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But hearing him shout for the 1st time is really, really shocking.

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And I find myself actually getting a bit upset by it too.

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Well, I, I find from the beg, from the very beginning of the story, he's, he's got an unpleasant streak to him.

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And I don't think it's an oversight.

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I think it's a conscious choice.

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When he says to Amy, look, go follow Mandy and she's like, why do I have to do that?

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And he just turns through and says, it's this or Ledworth.

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It's basically stalk this child to get information for me or I'm taking you home.

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And again, at the end when he turns really nasty.

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After he shouts, he says, After this, it's straight back home for you.

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But I think that's fair enough.

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Like, I think that the after this, it's straight back home for you, like, that's absolutely the right thing because, um, she has decided not only that she's going to allow this system of oppression to be perpetuated, but that she's going to prevent the doctor from overthrowing it out of some weird need to, like, protect the doctor.

197
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I mean, that is so fascinating to unpack.

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Why does she think he needs to be protected?

199
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I wonder if it's almost like he's part of her childhood.

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She wants to keep pure, even though there's no way in hell that's staying.

201
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That's interesting.

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But don't you think that the only outcome apart from complicity that she can imagine is killing everyone on Starship UK.

203
00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:56.639
Yeah, she didn't want to make the, she didn't want him to make that choice.

204
00:16:56.879 --> 00:17:05.700
And even the doctor himself has said we shouldn't have come here at one point because he can sort of see that moral dilemma impending a bit.

205
00:17:05.759 --> 00:17:07.259
I think.

206
00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:13.500
I do think too, that, that I think that that, um, is this or Ledworth, isn't quite as mean.

207
00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:18.420
I don't read it as quite as mean as Brandon does, because I think he's saying, this is the sort of thing we do.

208
00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:19.559
Do you know what I mean?

209
00:17:19.619 --> 00:17:20.700
Yeah.

210
00:17:20.700 --> 00:17:26.759
Well, the thing, you know, he says it in a jokey way, but it is actually exactly the same threat as at the end.

211
00:17:26.819 --> 00:17:32.700
Like if you just, if you strip out, if you strip out the emotion, because the emotion's very different, the words are the same.

212
00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:38.759
It's almost as cruel as Rose would know, never mind.

213
00:17:38.819 --> 00:17:40.019
I'll take you home in the morning.

214
00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:41.039
Yeah, yeah.

215
00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:49.200
And at least with that, the doctor partially had the excuse of he's not really in this moment because he's reminiscing about Rose.

216
00:17:49.259 --> 00:17:52.619
But that being said, that's not a criticism.

217
00:17:52.680 --> 00:18:03.599
I think that is a conscious choice on behalf of Stephen Moffatt, who is hinting, basically, you know, that in 18 months from now, we are going to get the doctor shouting Colonel Runaway.

218
00:18:03.660 --> 00:18:06.359
Yeah, you know, which is an amazing moment.

219
00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:14.579
I think it's also vital to how Amy's developing here because she's grown up with the idea of the doctor, but never really known the reality.

220
00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:17.400
This whole episode is her sort of sounding out what her relationship is.

221
00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:23.039
She follows the orders to investigate Mandy because she still sort of feels like she owes it to him.

222
00:18:23.099 --> 00:18:26.579
She's still in a place where she's kind of, His assistant.

223
00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:28.380
I'm your new assistant.

224
00:18:28.440 --> 00:18:41.759
But over the course of the episode, she starts to take charge more to the point where, yeah, she makes a big screw up with the voting, but she's starting to make these decisions for herself until at the end she can call the doctor out and make a better choice.

225
00:18:41.819 --> 00:18:45.359
And that's a really cool arc to have within the space of an episode.

226
00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:56.519
And I think Kevin, it's essential because what we see with Amy is that she can't see the world except for that, you know, that dilemma, which is essentially Dostoevsky's dilemma in the brothers cameras of, right?

227
00:18:56.579 --> 00:19:01.559
This idea that you can have a utopia, but it comes at the expense of torturing an innocent life.

228
00:19:01.619 --> 00:19:06.420
And it's, that whole edifice is is founded on the unavenged tears of that, of that innocent.

229
00:19:06.539 --> 00:19:35.940
That's the only thing that she can think of until she steps back and she sees the space well, and she sees the doctor for what they actually are, and she's, uh, you know, her horizons have been expanded essentially, and she becomes the companion in that, in that instance, um, which is, uh, maybe a little bit problematic, but we see it a lot in Yoo Hoo, where the companion has to be worthy of travelling with the doctor, and I think it's a real growth moment for, for the character of Amy to solve that plot to, essentially unlock that 4th act, which is, no, no, there is a better way, and this is

230
00:19:35.940 --> 00:19:38.279
um, how it's done but maybe we'll talk about that later.

231
00:19:44.339 --> 00:19:49.559
I would like to talk about that later, because that's actually my big problem with this episode.

232
00:19:49.619 --> 00:19:51.779
Oh, I think I want to hear it now.

233
00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:55.259
Okay, well, um, fighting words.

234
00:19:55.259 --> 00:19:59.700
A few years ago and it's currently out of print for reasons I won't go into here.

235
00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:07.140
But I was part of a book called Hating to Love reassessing the 52 worst Doctor Who stories of all time.

236
00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:11.160
And the beast below was in amongst them.

237
00:20:11.220 --> 00:20:14.400
Now, I didn't, I know.

238
00:20:14.940 --> 00:20:18.299
It was basically one per season and then a few more.

239
00:20:18.420 --> 00:20:22.380
I didn't specifically ask for the beast below, but it was assigned to me.

240
00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:25.319
Victory of the dialect is right there.

241
00:20:25.380 --> 00:20:27.299
The lodger is right there.

242
00:20:27.420 --> 00:20:30.720
Victory of the Daleks and the Lodger were also both in the book.

243
00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:32.220
Okay.

244
00:20:32.220 --> 00:20:34.079
Well, at least I'm a little happier now.

245
00:20:34.140 --> 00:20:39.420
But what it boils down to for me is, you're absolutely right, Stephen, in that in New Who.

246
00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:45.359
There is this sort of thing where the companion has to prove their worth.

247
00:20:45.420 --> 00:20:51.779
So, you know, Rose swings on the chain because she won the silver gymnastics medal.

248
00:20:51.779 --> 00:20:52.559
The Bronx.

249
00:20:52.619 --> 00:20:57.180
And we've never seen her gymnastic skills again. very upset about that as a gymnast.

250
00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:03.299
You know, Marfa has to scan and read to show that she's a vampire.

251
00:21:03.420 --> 00:21:08.819
Donna has the extra pendant and then helps the doctor wipe out the pyra vials.

252
00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:15.299
In all of those, their action is complimentary to what the doctor is doing.

253
00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:24.180
It's like the doctor is pretty much already doing that and is stopped and can only get out of the situation. by what the companion does.

254
00:21:24.359 --> 00:21:30.000
Amy's action is in opposition to what the doctor's doing and Amy is doing the right thing.

255
00:21:30.059 --> 00:21:34.500
But the problem is instead of just showing Amy's intelligence.

256
00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:39.059
And it's a very intelligent moment because we get one of the better sort of Moffat moments.

257
00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:46.920
Moffatt does a lot of moments where he sort of has lines from the show replay inside a character's head as they figure something out that works really well here.

258
00:21:46.980 --> 00:21:48.839
It's a really intelligent moment.

259
00:21:48.900 --> 00:21:56.039
I feel it is heavily undermined by the fact that it's not so much Amy's being really smart.

260
00:21:56.099 --> 00:21:58.319
It's that the doctor's being really stupid.

261
00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:02.519
Uh, I'm not sure about that though.

262
00:22:02.579 --> 00:22:07.200
How does he doesn't have the information, does he or does he?

263
00:22:07.259 --> 00:22:12.660
Yeah, I don't, I, I thought it, he was, I mean, like I said, I totally bought that.

264
00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:15.000
The euthanasia was the best option to do at the time.

265
00:22:15.059 --> 00:22:22.619
I thought that was a very heavy dilemma and then, I mean, Amy only gets to the point she does because she's been observing how the doctor acts the whole episode.

266
00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:24.119
He can't really observe himself.

267
00:22:24.180 --> 00:22:27.900
And he also isn't really looking over at the whale cuddling with kids.

268
00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:28.980
Is a bit busy.

269
00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:39.180
Well, that is exactly it too, because one of the things about that resolution is it's a bit laboured, like we are told it about 5 times or something in, you know, succession.

270
00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:41.279
But the doctor doesn't realise it.

271
00:22:41.339 --> 00:22:54.779
Like, even though for us, all of that stuff about being old and lonely and kind and the last of your kind, like, you know, the camera is on the doctor when she actually delivers that line.

272
00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:57.660
We know that she's talking about the doctor, but the doctor doesn't get it.

273
00:22:57.660 --> 00:23:03.779
And it's because, you know, maybe he is being stupid, but he's not being stupid about the situation.

274
00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:06.539
He's just not recognising his own behaviour.

275
00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:13.680
Remember when he says to Amy what he does, which is we're just observers, all of that sort of thing.

276
00:23:13.740 --> 00:23:14.759
We don't interfere.

277
00:23:14.819 --> 00:23:17.819
Um, you know, I'll be here staying out of trouble.

278
00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:20.880
He gives her a completely false idea of what he does.

279
00:23:20.940 --> 00:23:25.619
And of course, the 1st action that he takes is to come for a crying child.

280
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:33.420
And the montage that we see Amy C in the voting booth has crying children all the way through it.

281
00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:51.000
Um, and so she makes that link before he does, but it's because she isn't him, and she has learned about him this episode, and it's that knowledge that enables her to work out what the uh, the alternative is.

282
00:23:51.299 --> 00:24:04.920
I think Davies and Moffatt both kind of subscribe to the idea that the companion is necessary, not just for what they're bringing themselves, but how they can observe the doctor and call out the doctor in a way that the doctor can never possibly do alone.

283
00:24:04.980 --> 00:24:07.859
Like, that's why they're always saying, don't travel alone.

284
00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:10.259
And that's also something I think we need more of right now.

285
00:24:10.740 --> 00:24:13.980
Absolutely, and see the humanity in him as well.

286
00:24:14.039 --> 00:24:20.880
So, I mean, yes, it's a massively heavy metaphor and I think that's probably the closest that you could criticise the resolution for, but you know what?

287
00:24:20.940 --> 00:24:34.200
This isn't just a show for now, self-aware adults, who could never quite allow themselves to grow out of a silly old television family show because a huge part of why we never actually grew out of that, that television show is that same kind of morality play message.

288
00:24:34.259 --> 00:24:40.500
We loved when we were 10 and we were watching Genesis of the Daleks or the 5 doctors or even a planet of the Daleks, for heaven's sake.

289
00:24:40.619 --> 00:24:46.500
Like, this is the doctor being shown what the doctor can do and B by the companion.

290
00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:48.180
And I think, I think that's great.

291
00:24:48.180 --> 00:24:52.079
And the metaphor is massively heavy, yes, but it's not just us watching.

292
00:24:52.140 --> 00:24:59.279
It's also the, you know, the 12 year old girl who's who's Amy's companion in this story also watching, and I think that's, That's actually fair enough I feel.

293
00:25:14.700 --> 00:25:25.559
You know, the scene where Amy learns that the doctor's the last of his kind and she's told by him about the time war.

294
00:25:25.619 --> 00:25:36.839
And I just wanted to note how superbly Matt plays that, the decision to throw it away and to not, you know, bad day.

295
00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:37.680
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

296
00:25:37.740 --> 00:25:44.460
Um, rather than to do the sort of David Tennant trembling lower lip and, you know, moist eyes.

297
00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:44.940
Yeah.

298
00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:51.900
And can I just say he and Karen Gillan are both on fire here.

299
00:25:51.960 --> 00:25:53.819
I mean, it's very early in their run.

300
00:25:53.880 --> 00:25:57.359
I know it's not the 1st thing they film, but it's one of the 1st things we saw of them.

301
00:25:57.420 --> 00:25:59.519
They have so much chemistry already.

302
00:25:59.579 --> 00:26:06.480
You can already feel their dynamic feels lived in, and they're already making a lot of really clever choices like that.

303
00:26:06.539 --> 00:26:08.339
I absolutely adore them.

304
00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:11.880
I, there, I mean, I was like a teenager watching them.

305
00:26:11.940 --> 00:26:15.960
They are the ones that own my heart and I was instantly swept back into that.

306
00:26:16.019 --> 00:26:25.799
It's interesting to hear you say that, Kevin, because for me, Matt Smith is still probably my favourite doctor of the new series doctors.

307
00:26:25.799 --> 00:26:37.799
As I've discussed with you in the past, Kevin, and I think with all of you separately, there are things this era does that I think twice about, but never about Matt Smith.

308
00:26:37.859 --> 00:26:44.400
And I feel like he settles into the role the quickest since Sylvester McCoy.

309
00:26:44.460 --> 00:26:53.160
Oh, the 1st thing that he films, and we'll get to this in a couple of weeks, is the scene on the beach with River and he nails it instantly.

310
00:26:53.220 --> 00:26:56.880
Just from the get go, he is absolutely perfect.

311
00:26:56.940 --> 00:27:00.599
And I, I agree with you, Kevin.

312
00:27:00.660 --> 00:27:07.140
I think both of these 2 leads are really incredible and they work really well together.

313
00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:09.000
And then when Arthur joins them.

314
00:27:09.059 --> 00:27:23.579
Um, you know, it's 3 attractive young people who all really like one another, and I just think the interplay between them, and the relationships among them are super interesting.

315
00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:26.759
Like, I think they're an absolutely superb Tartist team.

316
00:27:26.819 --> 00:27:48.119
Yeah, I think it's something Russell tries to go for with the 10th Dr. Rose and Mickey in the 10th doctor and Rose are sort of bouncing around the room and Mickey's just there occasionally saying, okay, you're going to come down to the floor now, but it doesn't work because Russell's sort of encouraging us to laugh at Mickey, whereas when Rory comes on, we're actually kind of with Rory, when he's saying to them, all right, calm down.

317
00:27:48.180 --> 00:27:49.559
It's just Venice.

318
00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:52.380
They're just fish lobsters.

319
00:27:53.460 --> 00:27:57.059
But yeah, here, the 2 of them together.

320
00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:04.380
Like, Amy, Amy is a character I sometimes have problems with, but I do not fault Karen Gillen for that.

321
00:28:04.440 --> 00:28:27.539
I think Karen Gillen is a spectacular actress and the more I see her in, the more variety I see her do in other things makes me appreciate Amy all the more because much like Matt Smith, she's doing very complex things in very small moments, like, like the bit in, in the voting booth when she's watching, you know, Christopher Hamilton bid me tell her that something bad is going to.

322
00:28:27.660 --> 00:28:29.400
I thought it was Jeremy Core, but...

323
00:28:29.400 --> 00:28:33.000
It so does look...

324
00:28:33.900 --> 00:28:36.480
Call that Hamilton bitch.

325
00:28:37.019 --> 00:28:38.940
What have we done?

326
00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:53.700
Um, I should I should mention, I was living in the UK when this series went out and they were coming up to a general election, which, of course, is where David Cameron got in because he looked better in a suit than Gordon Brown.

327
00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:55.740
It's like, no, really, that was the reason.

328
00:28:55.799 --> 00:28:58.799
But you did have this feeling in the UK.

329
00:28:58.859 --> 00:29:02.160
You know, Tony Blair had quit and was immensely popular.

330
00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:06.720
And I'm just going to leave that statement there because we could do a whole hour of Tony Blair.

331
00:29:06.779 --> 00:29:13.079
Um, But he was immensely popular and Gordon Brown was a lot more sort of a workaday politician.

332
00:29:13.140 --> 00:29:16.680
He wasn't massively charismatic, but he was very intelligent, very erudite.

333
00:29:16.740 --> 00:29:25.740
Whereas David Cameron comes along and is massively charismatic. you know, goes on to win the election and Moffatt pressages that.

334
00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:27.240
He pressages Brexit.

335
00:29:27.299 --> 00:29:27.660
Yeah.

336
00:29:27.660 --> 00:29:30.720
Um, you know, he presides austerity.

337
00:29:30.779 --> 00:29:32.819
He press Scottish independence.

338
00:29:33.059 --> 00:29:37.980
Because that was a that was a neophyte idea in terms of the referendum.

339
00:29:38.039 --> 00:29:40.559
Obviously, the idea has been around for many 100s of years.

340
00:29:40.859 --> 00:29:47.460
But it wasn't until 2014 that the 1st referendum happened and now we've probably got another one coming.

341
00:29:49.079 --> 00:29:59.099
And I think much like when Russell does political commentary, you sort of go, oh, he's kind of seeing a bit into the future with this when you come back 5 years later.

342
00:29:59.099 --> 00:30:01.319
I think Moffatt was doing exactly the same thing.

343
00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:03.900
I think I think it is commentary.

344
00:30:04.019 --> 00:30:11.519
You might be accidental, and it does weirdly presage all of those things, as you say, Brendan, you know, it's Starship UK. that does a lot of the heavy lifting, though.

345
00:30:11.579 --> 00:30:13.319
It's done through iconography and imagery.

346
00:30:13.380 --> 00:30:16.740
It's Starship UK minor scholar and really who can blame them.

347
00:30:16.799 --> 00:30:17.400
But look at it.

348
00:30:17.460 --> 00:30:19.859
It's like a Gothic lashed up of interconnecting wires.

349
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:25.259
It's kind of like what Gotham City might have looked like if it was a, if it was Britain's 2nd city and not Birmingham.

350
00:30:25.319 --> 00:30:28.019
Um, you've got the distinct and decaying buildings.

351
00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:30.000
You know, it's all a bit crap.

352
00:30:30.059 --> 00:30:32.279
The 2nd R in Surrey is on the Fritz.

353
00:30:32.339 --> 00:30:32.819
Yes.

354
00:30:33.660 --> 00:30:36.119
The 1st thing that we see.

355
00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:40.619
The production design is fantastic, though.

356
00:30:40.680 --> 00:30:52.920
I mean, you don't really get all the details as developed as I feel like they must have been in Moffatt's head, like the smilers, the winders, all that exposition dialogue is just cut, cut, cut, but the details feel really realised.

357
00:30:52.980 --> 00:30:55.319
It feels like he gave them quite a lot of notes.

358
00:30:55.440 --> 00:31:00.180
And I love the, the tube signs for the elevator. cracks me up.

359
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:06.000
And all the BBC sort of stuff, you know, in that explanatory video and things.

360
00:31:06.059 --> 00:31:17.099
And in fact, that's what's really interesting about it is it leans so heavily into sort of mid-20th century sort of British iconography, which again is magpie electrical.

361
00:31:17.160 --> 00:31:18.180
Well, yes, exactly.

362
00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:21.779
And it's going to be a feature of next week's episode as well.

363
00:31:22.140 --> 00:31:24.599
So it revels in that.

364
00:31:24.660 --> 00:31:26.700
You know, like it seems to be celebrating it.

365
00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:27.839
There's the monarchy.

366
00:31:27.900 --> 00:31:37.259
The thing that makes Great Britain, even today, a sort of fairy tale kingdom is that it's a kingdom, you know, and there's castles and things like that and the queen.

367
00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:45.299
But it portrays that as being fundamentally rotten and based upon oppression and emiseration.

368
00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:52.859
Like what looks like it's going to be a celebration of Britishness in the way that, you know, Russell's 1st series of Doctor Who is.

369
00:31:52.980 --> 00:31:58.500
But here it's a celebration of Britishness that's about how fundamentally rotten it all is.

370
00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:01.200
But what is it redeemed by Nathan, right?

371
00:32:01.259 --> 00:32:09.900
And that the heart of this is a sort of problematic thing that we'll definitely see next week, which is the positioning of the doctorate as close to the heart of that mythical kingdom of the United Kingdom?

372
00:32:09.960 --> 00:32:16.980
And it's also obviously the way in which the doctor becomes a myth and the store has become about the doctor being a myth in Moffat's era as well.

373
00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:19.980
You know, Liz Ten says, I was brought up on stories of you.

374
00:32:20.039 --> 00:32:20.819
My whole family was.

375
00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:39.059
And it's this idea that again, it's revisited in the resolution where the doctor, as a promise, is so strong and so beneficent that he is essentially what is at the heart of what is good about Britain, and that's to say that the doctor is the best of us, and that is kind of the role that the doctor has in this story, but also I think in the Moffatt years to come.

376
00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:43.559
And 0 my goodness, that moment where he talks about how he would have to give up his name.

377
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:44.759
Yeah.

378
00:32:44.940 --> 00:32:47.099
We see that next, right?

379
00:32:47.160 --> 00:32:48.299
Well, that's the thing.

380
00:32:48.359 --> 00:32:53.220
There's 2 moments in this that press out, the day of the doctor, and one of them is that.

381
00:32:53.220 --> 00:32:58.140
And the other one is when the doctor is talking about being the last time, Lord.

382
00:32:58.200 --> 00:33:02.099
And he said, you know, a lot of people died, and I will never forget that.

383
00:33:02.099 --> 00:33:05.700
And we get to the day of the doctor and he can't remember how many children there were.

384
00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:07.200
He's the man who forgets.

385
00:33:07.259 --> 00:33:24.720
Well, in fact, it's really good, isn't it, that what Moffatt does in that scene with Tennant in Day of the Doctor is he just takes the doctor's performances and the way that they talk about the time war and develops them into a proper character difference between them.

386
00:33:24.779 --> 00:33:29.940
Um, you know, like interrogates the way that he's had Matt doing that all along.

387
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:38.400
And like Matt was never going to kind of be all kind of maudlin and weepy and stuff because that's not his performance.

388
00:33:38.460 --> 00:33:45.180
But, uh, you know, Moffatt looks at that difference and and spend some time interrogating it.

389
00:33:45.240 --> 00:33:47.339
I think it's really incredibly interesting.

390
00:33:59.460 --> 00:34:08.219
So, if we're talking about the best of Britain, All right, were you going to also talk about what might be the worst of Britain, or might be more complicated with Liz 10.

391
00:34:08.579 --> 00:34:11.639
I think she's really terrific Fabulous.

392
00:34:11.699 --> 00:34:13.440
I love how she's wonderful.

393
00:34:13.500 --> 00:34:18.719
I love her little like disgust when she shakes Amy's hand and then gets vomit all over it.

394
00:34:19.619 --> 00:34:22.980
No, she goes nice hair, shame about the sick.

395
00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:25.079
It's...

396
00:34:25.380 --> 00:34:36.059
She's also like fundamentally corrupt, but she's also kind of corrupting the British monarchy by being black, which is a rare thing in Moffatt's early seasons of having any non-white people at all.

397
00:34:36.300 --> 00:34:38.099
It's complicated.

398
00:34:38.219 --> 00:34:39.780
That's that's another moment.

399
00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:50.219
Moffat presages from the real world, a person of coa as a member of the royal family. as we would eventually, sadly, briefly have with Meghan Markle, but who can blame her and Harry, frankly?

400
00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:51.960
And I wish them all the happiness of the world.

401
00:34:52.019 --> 00:34:57.840
But the thing is, I remember at the time you can imagine how Galafre Base reacted to that.

402
00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:05.400
I believe the beast below section was closed for 12 hours for people to cool off.

403
00:35:05.460 --> 00:35:06.300
Wow.

404
00:35:07.559 --> 00:35:12.719
Whereas me, I'm just going, 0 my god, that's Alison from Scream of the Shelker.

405
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:16.199
Yeah. is so good.

406
00:35:16.260 --> 00:35:19.019
She deserves another girl at being a companion, honestly.

407
00:35:19.139 --> 00:35:24.000
I think what's interesting is that her dilemma is the same as ours.

408
00:35:24.059 --> 00:35:29.699
You know, like it's essentially parallel, that even though she...

409
00:35:29.699 --> 00:35:42.780
Look, she is depicted as having proper concern for her people, and what she thinks she's doing is getting to the bottom of some terrible thing that's infesting the ship.

410
00:35:42.840 --> 00:35:54.059
And then she discovers, uh, just like Amy discovers that it's her, that she's been doing this all along because she's been making exactly the same decision as all of her people.

411
00:35:54.300 --> 00:36:04.739
Um, So, I think she is depicted as being corrupt, but I don't think she's depicted as being any more corrupt than any of the rest of us.

412
00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:06.599
But I think maybe that's the difference.

413
00:36:06.659 --> 00:36:13.619
She might not be any more corrupt than the rest of us, but she's in a position of power where how it impacts her impacts all of us.

414
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:22.199
Although the setup does give us much more power than we normally do in a democracy, remember, because the threshold for protest is one%.

415
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:27.300
If one% of the people on Starship UK protest, the whole thing falls down.

416
00:36:27.420 --> 00:36:32.280
They also kill literally every protester, which is slightly more than we do.

417
00:36:32.340 --> 00:36:33.780
That's true.

418
00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:38.400
Whose idea was it to kill every protester anyway?

419
00:36:38.460 --> 00:36:39.420
I really want to know.

420
00:36:39.480 --> 00:36:40.860
Was that her idea?

421
00:36:41.699 --> 00:36:48.659
Yeah, yeah, it sounds like that's probably one of the things that the story doesn't want us to think about too carefully.

422
00:36:48.780 --> 00:36:50.039
And I do...

423
00:36:50.039 --> 00:36:53.760
Maybe it's just an extrapolation of what happened post-Brexit many, many centuries later.

424
00:36:54.659 --> 00:37:10.079
I think probably that because he wanted to make the monster a monster and wanted the feeding tube scene and all of that, that he's probably introduced elements into the story that don't quite work with the allegory.

425
00:37:10.139 --> 00:37:18.480
Yeah, no, this story totally doesn't hold together and you can see why they cut down stuff like telling us what a winder is and why that's different from a smiler.

426
00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:19.739
Nobody cares.

427
00:37:19.800 --> 00:37:22.019
The allegory is more interesting than the details.

428
00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:22.980
Exactly.

429
00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:28.139
Absolutely And that's, again, the mythic quality, the mythics fairy tale storytelling of Moth.

430
00:37:28.199 --> 00:37:33.300
It's associative logic, it's not necessarily A to B to C in terms of the plot points and I'm all here for it.

431
00:37:33.360 --> 00:37:33.719
I love it.

432
00:37:33.719 --> 00:37:35.699
Can I just go back to Liston really quickly, though?

433
00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:36.300
Yeah.

434
00:37:36.300 --> 00:37:42.840
Has she got possibly the greatest line for a, you know, a sort of a cameo character in, I'm the bloody queen mate.

435
00:37:42.900 --> 00:37:43.860
Basically, I rule.

436
00:37:44.519 --> 00:37:46.920
That's a wonderful creation.

437
00:37:46.980 --> 00:37:49.199
I need to see that in a drag performance.

438
00:37:50.340 --> 00:38:00.239
And then you cut to the doctor, Amy, and Mandy, and they're kneeling before her. as she raises her weapon in the air.

439
00:38:00.300 --> 00:38:05.039
Matt Smith is looking at her like Pat Trouton was looking at Mary Peach.

440
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:07.139
Let's be honest.

441
00:38:07.260 --> 00:38:10.320
I think Stephen Moffat probably was too.

442
00:38:10.380 --> 00:38:12.599
This is the beginning of horny Matt Smith.

443
00:38:15.659 --> 00:38:19.320
This is the beginning of the horny 11th doctor, but he doesn't quite know what that means.

444
00:38:19.380 --> 00:38:20.340
Yes.

445
00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:22.380
That's why I don't hate it.

446
00:38:22.679 --> 00:38:30.599
The fact that is Matt Smith plays sexuality so awkwardly, like he literally has no idea what it is.

447
00:38:30.659 --> 00:38:34.860
The fact that he often does display sexuality is less uncomfortable because of that.

448
00:38:34.980 --> 00:38:36.719
Yes, yes.

449
00:38:36.780 --> 00:38:46.019
Yeah, I mean, this is something that FDA is going to be discussing over the next 2 years or so over and over again, I think, because I...

450
00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:53.099
Well, the big, there is a big problem, I think, in the Moffat era and it does have to do with sex and sexuality and gender roles and stuff like that.

451
00:38:53.159 --> 00:38:57.179
Um, but it's not quite there yet.

452
00:38:57.599 --> 00:39:02.699
I think it'd be a lot worse with David Tennant too, because David Tennant would play it sincerely.

453
00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:06.539
He'd play it very, very horny and it would be it would be awful.

454
00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:09.840
Well, he's not, he's quite sexually confident.

455
00:39:09.900 --> 00:39:10.500
I think.

456
00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:16.139
And we did come to the conclusion by the end of the specials that he was probably one season away from just being Austin Powers.

457
00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:23.159
Also with Liz 10, I find it interesting.

458
00:39:23.219 --> 00:39:30.239
She has a line where she says, my government is lying to me, but we never see a prime minister, we never see a minister.

459
00:39:30.300 --> 00:39:39.179
It seems like the UK has gone back to an absolute monarchy where the queen actually rules and has a say in what's happening.

460
00:39:39.239 --> 00:39:41.940
It's basically like QAnon.

461
00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:45.300
You've got all powerful monarch fighting the deep state.

462
00:39:47.880 --> 00:39:51.719
And there's a button chicken breast that gets rid of all the data.

463
00:39:53.579 --> 00:39:59.400
I think, though, that the government is represented essentially by, is his name Hawthorne?

464
00:39:59.460 --> 00:40:01.260
Yeah, who's the theme of the headmaster?

465
00:40:01.980 --> 00:40:02.340
Yeah.

466
00:40:02.340 --> 00:40:02.940
Yeah.

467
00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:13.019
And just because he reads like, you know, he's a white guy, a certain age, you know, glasses, posh accent, all of that sort of thing.

468
00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:17.699
And he's always sort of sorrowfully explaining something to the to the queen.

469
00:40:17.760 --> 00:40:20.820
He does read, I think, a little bit like the Prime Minister.

470
00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:27.179
I think again, because the setting is so, um, fantastical and abstract and stuff.

471
00:40:27.239 --> 00:40:29.460
You know, we don't have government and police.

472
00:40:29.519 --> 00:40:42.360
We've got Hawthorne and the Winders and the, and the smilers and things that, that are representing sort of state violence and coercive state power, because that's something that doesn't get developed a lot.

473
00:40:42.420 --> 00:40:46.199
The doctor talks about this being a police state.

474
00:40:46.260 --> 00:40:49.019
And I'm not quite sure where that fits in.

475
00:40:49.079 --> 00:40:50.639
There's a very, very clever scene.

476
00:40:50.699 --> 00:41:01.559
Where the doctor deduces from the fact that Mandy is crying silently and everyone's not paying any attention to her that this is a police state.

477
00:41:01.619 --> 00:41:07.079
He goes straight from that thing to Britain is politically rotten and it's a police state.

478
00:41:07.139 --> 00:41:24.300
And does it have to be a police state because, um, because the system is founded on oppression to such a degree that if that's discovered, you know, there's the government's in a precarious situation.

479
00:41:24.360 --> 00:41:26.400
Or is it an austerity thing?

480
00:41:26.460 --> 00:41:31.139
Is it that they've had to go back to basics, bicycles and wind up lamps and stuff?

481
00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:35.159
Um, Is that the reason there's a police state?

482
00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:38.460
I think it's the former because it's a very two-faced thing.

483
00:41:38.519 --> 00:41:43.739
It's trying to create that facade that all of Starship UK is built on where everything's fine.

484
00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:46.679
Nothing's going wrong, but the head turns around and you see the truth.

485
00:41:46.739 --> 00:41:57.179
I think, actually, a good representation of the cops in general, you know, because there's always that image of the smiling neighbourhood cop who will help you out and star on Brooklyn 99 or whatever.

486
00:41:57.239 --> 00:42:01.320
But really, they're all the ugly, uh, fellas on the other side of the head.

487
00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:04.199
I think that's a that's a good point.

488
00:42:04.260 --> 00:42:09.360
I'm probably of the opinion, though, that it's, um, both of them, like it doesn't have to be one or the other.

489
00:42:09.420 --> 00:42:19.380
I think it can be the fact that it is austerity on this ship is, you know, in a precarious state, but also that it is the inevitable byproduct of, of an oppressive tyranny, you know.

490
00:42:19.500 --> 00:42:25.619
Um, Terence Harteman, the demon headmasters effectively her chamberlain, and it's an absolute monarchy.

491
00:42:25.980 --> 00:42:28.260
I'm the bloody queen mate. basically our rule.

492
00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:34.980
Um, and it's more akin then to maybe to Liz the 1st England rather than the 2nd, but it's a good.

493
00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:35.699
Yeah, it's a fair point.

494
00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:36.300
I take yours as well.

495
00:42:37.019 --> 00:42:45.360
I'd be terribly hopeful that after this, Liz does set up like an actual government, or better yet, steps aside.

496
00:42:45.420 --> 00:42:47.579
She's been ruling for 100s of years.

497
00:42:47.639 --> 00:42:50.159
She can, she can get some me time now.

498
00:42:50.219 --> 00:42:52.019
She's back in episode 12 though.

499
00:42:52.079 --> 00:42:54.420
She's back in episode 12 in her.

500
00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:57.119
Well, maybe she's just a curator and that's why she's in the...

501
00:42:58.199 --> 00:43:00.300
She'd be great at curating.

502
00:43:00.360 --> 00:43:06.840
They did they did actually film, uh, Sophie Orkinito's bits for that episode.

503
00:43:06.960 --> 00:43:07.739
Oh, of course.

504
00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:10.019
But with someone standing in for Alex Kingston.

505
00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:13.559
And then when they film the Alex Kingston bit, say it's someone standing in for Sophie Okinido.

506
00:43:13.739 --> 00:43:25.260
Speaking of reshoots, this episode had quite a few, and you know how the 1st production block of Russell series with Keith Boke is kind of shrouded in secrecy and we don't know exactly what went wrong.

507
00:43:25.679 --> 00:43:27.840
I'll say for a rumour.

508
00:43:27.900 --> 00:43:35.460
That seems to be the block here because Andrew Gunn is not invited back to direction again.

509
00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:39.300
No, he does this and victory for Daleks.

510
00:43:39.780 --> 00:43:41.639
Victory of the Daleks.

511
00:43:41.639 --> 00:43:45.239
And I remember this as it happened in the UK.

512
00:43:45.300 --> 00:43:50.460
Victory of the Daleks 2 weeks before it was broadcast, had a 65 minute slot.

513
00:43:50.519 --> 00:43:51.659
Oh, heavens.

514
00:43:51.719 --> 00:43:55.260
And about 10 days before broadcast, it was shortened to 45.

515
00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:56.460
Wow.

516
00:43:56.519 --> 00:43:59.820
And there's been, you know, that is a nightmare.

517
00:43:59.880 --> 00:44:10.199
And, you know, it's a bit like when the Rand is crying, because her boyfriend bought it, you know, the rumour is in the 65 minute cut, there was like 10 minutes of their relationship in there.

518
00:44:10.199 --> 00:44:12.179
And they're just like, okay, cut it out.

519
00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:13.139
The last line still makes sense.

520
00:44:13.199 --> 00:44:20.940
There's a fair bit cut out here, including the scene where the doctor discovers that none of the things are connected.

521
00:44:21.000 --> 00:44:24.659
That was completely reshot and that's not Sophie Okinido.

522
00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:25.440
Oh okay.

523
00:44:25.500 --> 00:44:26.280
Oh, wow.

524
00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:28.619
That is her standing because she wasn't available for the research.

525
00:44:28.679 --> 00:44:31.980
The reshoots were either directed by Andrew Smith.

526
00:44:32.039 --> 00:44:36.480
He did some of them, who did Flesh and Stone, Angels.

527
00:44:36.780 --> 00:44:38.820
Fantastic job.

528
00:44:38.880 --> 00:44:40.019
Yeah.

529
00:44:40.079 --> 00:44:44.820
But also, a lot of the reshoots were done by Eros Lynn.

530
00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:46.440
Ah, really?

531
00:44:46.500 --> 00:44:49.679
because they needed someone to get it done quickly.

532
00:44:49.739 --> 00:44:55.860
Um, and particularly um, his big edition because this wasn't initially in the script.

533
00:44:55.920 --> 00:44:57.599
So Andrew Gunn couldn't have shot it.

534
00:44:57.659 --> 00:45:03.480
Um, the big edition for Eros Lynn is that scene where they're staring out the window at the end.

535
00:45:03.960 --> 00:45:05.820
Oh, my God.

536
00:45:05.820 --> 00:45:06.840
Which he shot originally.

537
00:45:06.840 --> 00:45:08.340
Imagine this episode without that.

538
00:45:08.400 --> 00:45:09.539
That was beautiful.

539
00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:17.880
Most of the dialogue had been shot in the castle setting because they did use a real castle for the Tower of London. which is a dungeon.

540
00:45:17.940 --> 00:45:21.239
So again, you get that duality, the Tower of London is the lowest part of the city.

541
00:45:21.539 --> 00:45:31.380
But yeah, I think it was sort of a discussion between Steven and Eros of actually, how about we put a bit of time in?

542
00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:35.579
Oh, okay, if we're going to put a bit of time in between these scenes, we can move the location.

543
00:45:35.639 --> 00:45:37.440
How about we end on something really spectacular?

544
00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:41.699
And it really ties in back to her looking at the stars at the story.

545
00:45:41.820 --> 00:45:43.739
It gives it a really cohesive feeling.

546
00:45:44.099 --> 00:45:58.500
That's interesting though, because what I'd heard was that the original drafts that had things cut out over, I don't know, someone was claiming to me that they were tighter and more cohesive, but losing stuff like that, I think I might be happy with the finished version.

547
00:45:58.619 --> 00:46:13.139
I absolutely adore that final scene and just the nature of the reconciliation, you know, just how warm it is and how absolutely necessary that is given how brutal a doctor is, you know, in his reaction to Amy's vote.

548
00:46:13.199 --> 00:46:15.300
You absolutely needed it.

549
00:46:15.360 --> 00:46:19.619
And they're both kind of the same height, they're both the same age.

550
00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:23.159
It's different, that relationship.

551
00:46:23.280 --> 00:46:32.039
And I don't know if it's in the writing or just if it is in the physicality of the actors, but they seem to me to be friends.

552
00:46:32.099 --> 00:46:35.219
Um, in that scene at least.

553
00:46:35.280 --> 00:46:39.780
They seem to me to be friends and equals in a way that we haven't really properly seen before.

554
00:46:41.159 --> 00:46:51.780
And I think part of that is because Matt Smith, with, with David Tennant, Tennant's doctor has a mask and that mask is, I'm happy all the time and I'm fine all the time.

555
00:46:51.840 --> 00:46:55.559
Matt Smith's mask is kind of the other way around.

556
00:46:55.619 --> 00:47:00.539
His mask is, I don't want to show you I'm angry, but any other emotion is going to be fully on my face.

557
00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:09.420
So when he hugs Amy at the end, and so we get the over the shoulder shot of her and she's doing a very human thing of, oh, I'm going to screw up my eyes so I don't cry.

558
00:47:09.420 --> 00:47:13.260
And then we cut to the doctor and the doctor is also screwing up his eyes so he doesn't cry.

559
00:47:13.260 --> 00:47:25.440
And that's what gets to me in that scene because, you know, it's kind of part of a Doctor Who companion write a passage in the new series that the 1st big injustice they come across, it's going to bring them to tears, you know?

560
00:47:25.500 --> 00:47:34.260
And so we expect that from maybe, but to see it from the doctor. is incredibly affecting and I think Matt and Karen both play that scene perfectly.

561
00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:35.400
I absolutely agree with you.

562
00:47:35.460 --> 00:47:39.539
If we had have had that scene straight off the back of Amy's solution and it's in a dark dungeon.

563
00:47:39.659 --> 00:47:51.420
It still would have been fine, and I'm sure they performed it perfectly well, but having a bit of a breather for us to get over that initial thing, and then come back with that emotion, and they both underplay it beautifully.

564
00:47:51.480 --> 00:47:54.300
Like, you know, imagine Tennant.

565
00:47:54.360 --> 00:47:58.139
You could have killed everyone on this ship, governor.

566
00:47:58.199 --> 00:47:59.880
Apples and pears, apples.

567
00:48:13.019 --> 00:48:19.500
How do we feel about that resolution at the end and the effect that it has on the allegory?

568
00:48:19.500 --> 00:48:25.739
Because what we've discovered is that the Star Whale had come to help.

569
00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:30.900
And they had no need to sort of trap and torture it.

570
00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:38.699
Now that they've spent 100s of years of trapping and torturing it, and then they stop and then it's kind of okay with that.

571
00:48:39.719 --> 00:48:42.360
Does anyone else have a problem with that?

572
00:48:42.840 --> 00:48:45.119
I mean, it's simplistic.

573
00:48:45.179 --> 00:48:48.719
But it's also a very simple allegory.

574
00:48:48.780 --> 00:48:50.880
I think saying stop oppressing people.

575
00:48:50.940 --> 00:48:56.519
People want to contribute to each other without being oppressed is a fair message.

576
00:48:56.579 --> 00:49:04.739
And I think it does a bit of legwork to try to justify that in context by saying the, um, Star Whale is the last of its kind and it really just wants to do one more altruistic thing.

577
00:49:04.800 --> 00:49:07.019
I'm with you on that, Kevin.

578
00:49:07.079 --> 00:49:18.000
And I think it's, it's again, it's the um, tying of the space fell to the doctor, not necessarily to the oppressed people, which it probably, um, is where it falls flat, um, for yourself, Nathan.

579
00:49:18.059 --> 00:49:29.820
Because it, it, to me, it is no different to the scene of, you know, the talk doctor on Clara in the Tartars where it says, you know, you betrayed my trust, you betrayed our friendship, you betrayed, um, everything I ever stood for.

580
00:49:29.880 --> 00:49:33.599
Do you think I care for you so little that betraying me would make a difference.

581
00:49:33.659 --> 00:49:36.360
I think that's uh, that's what it refers to.

582
00:49:36.420 --> 00:49:37.440
That's the nature of the doctor.

583
00:49:37.500 --> 00:49:39.000
Someone so old, so kind.

584
00:49:39.059 --> 00:49:40.739
And so ultimately forgiving.

585
00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:55.139
I think you're exactly right, Stephen, because, you know, you go back, even in the classic series, the 5th doctor, overtly states, I sometimes wonder why I care for the species of this stupid little planet so much.

586
00:49:55.199 --> 00:50:01.440
And it's like no matter how many times we screw up, the doctor is still going to come through and try and save us.

587
00:50:01.500 --> 00:50:06.000
And in a way that culminates in Voyage of the Damned, when David Tennant became Jesus.

588
00:50:07.380 --> 00:50:10.800
Actually, twice, you know, twice in a row.

589
00:50:10.920 --> 00:50:14.159
The last of the time towards he becomes Jesus.

590
00:50:14.219 --> 00:50:17.639
And then the sound of, and the thing is, people complained.

591
00:50:17.699 --> 00:50:18.900
They headed up in a church.

592
00:50:19.019 --> 00:50:19.980
Yeah, the stained glass.

593
00:50:20.039 --> 00:50:21.599
It was very nice stained glass.

594
00:50:21.659 --> 00:50:21.960
Yes.

595
00:50:21.960 --> 00:50:27.360
I remember some very silly religious groups complained when Voyage of the Damn went out.

596
00:50:27.420 --> 00:50:32.699
It's like, this has Jesus iconography, and Russell T. Xavier's response was basically, did you not see last of the time?

597
00:50:34.320 --> 00:50:39.840
In my mind, there's 2 ways to sort of justify why the Space World will continue to help.

598
00:50:39.900 --> 00:50:46.800
And one of them, as you say, Stephen, is, it's like the doctor and the doctor will always help, regardless of how crap we are sometimes.

599
00:50:47.219 --> 00:51:00.420
The other one is that this is an alien so different in its perceptions of the universe that we can't ascribe our own morality to it and what a human would do it.

600
00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:05.579
Because I was sitting here thinking, you know, the jokey way to express that is, well, it's a giant goldfish.

601
00:51:05.639 --> 00:51:06.300
It doesn't remember.

602
00:51:06.420 --> 00:51:08.940
It doesn't remember the last 200 years.

603
00:51:09.000 --> 00:51:20.219
But, but moreover, if this is a creature that's gone, I am going to dedicate my existence to carrying 60000000 people throughout space for an indeterminate period of time.

604
00:51:20.280 --> 00:51:23.219
It's it's like one of the great old ones.

605
00:51:23.280 --> 00:51:25.739
It doesn't, it doesn't have our thought process.

606
00:51:26.400 --> 00:51:33.000
Yeah, but if you're thinking about this in terms of like a allegory to oppressed people, it does have shortcomings.

607
00:51:33.059 --> 00:51:35.099
There's not no talking preparations or anything.

608
00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:38.099
We don't even know if they're going to take that damn room out of its head.

609
00:51:38.159 --> 00:51:41.159
Yeah, it's not...

610
00:51:41.280 --> 00:51:53.760
I actually think too, it is in a children's story, it's the misunderstood monster, you know, it's the monster that everyone's scared of that we discover is friendly all along.

611
00:51:53.760 --> 00:52:03.719
And so it is operating, as you were saying before, Stephen, on story logic or associative logic rather than actual logic.

612
00:52:03.780 --> 00:52:11.039
And so the monster doesn't bear any grudges, um, because it is, you know, a misunderstood.

613
00:52:11.099 --> 00:52:12.420
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

614
00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:25.440
But I agree with you, Kevin, that it does have, it's where the kind of, um, the allegory breaks down a little bit and and instead the logic of a fairy tale takes over.

615
00:52:25.500 --> 00:52:27.360
The allegory goes on a bit of holiday.

616
00:52:27.420 --> 00:52:33.059
And the breaking down is no worse than like, uh, yeah, the Zygons can fit in, but they've got to conform to humanity for all eternity.

617
00:52:33.119 --> 00:52:33.780
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

618
00:52:33.840 --> 00:52:34.619
No worse than that.

619
00:52:34.679 --> 00:52:46.019
I wonder if there's an allegory in Doctor Who that doesn't fall down in some way because it's, you know, it's hard to do a perfectly constructed allegory.

620
00:52:46.079 --> 00:52:50.460
I'd say almost impossible without, you know, making it satire.

621
00:52:50.519 --> 00:52:55.079
Um, And as allegories go.

622
00:52:55.139 --> 00:52:56.639
This is pretty complete.

623
00:52:56.760 --> 00:52:57.659
Yeah.

624
00:52:57.659 --> 00:53:02.280
Like, I know I complained about the ending before, but it that's that's a minor thing.

625
00:53:02.340 --> 00:53:07.380
Like me having to write that essay in hating to love, as I say, was because I was assigned it.

626
00:53:07.380 --> 00:53:10.679
And so I had to watch it looking for what people were complaining about.

627
00:53:10.739 --> 00:53:18.780
Stephen Moffat has named this story as his biggest regret. that it didn't come off the way he wanted it to.

628
00:53:18.840 --> 00:53:29.519
And I think he's being really too harsh on himself because it's like, I think really it achieves 90% of what it's set out to do and a lot of Dog 2 stories don't do that.

629
00:53:29.940 --> 00:53:32.460
It's a personal favourite of mine.

630
00:53:32.519 --> 00:53:34.019
I absolutely adore.

631
00:53:34.079 --> 00:53:35.639
I love Moffat when it goes political.

632
00:53:35.699 --> 00:53:37.920
I like oxygen a great deal as well.

633
00:53:37.980 --> 00:53:43.559
But oxygen has that, you know, is very definitely got capitalism as its target.

634
00:53:43.619 --> 00:53:53.820
Whereas this is about oppression more generally, and you can tie it down as you were before, Stephen, to the British Empire or the Tories or austerity or whatever.

635
00:53:53.880 --> 00:53:57.360
But I think it's it's a more general truth.

636
00:53:58.019 --> 00:54:00.599
And I really like that.

637
00:54:00.659 --> 00:54:09.960
You talked about Brothers Karamazov before, but the thing it reminded me most of was Ursula Le Guin's story, the ones who walk away from Omelus.

638
00:54:10.019 --> 00:54:10.920
Do any of you know that?

639
00:54:10.980 --> 00:54:12.659
No, I don't.

640
00:54:12.659 --> 00:54:13.019
I know.

641
00:54:13.019 --> 00:54:14.400
I haven't read that one.

642
00:54:14.460 --> 00:54:16.019
It's a very short story.

643
00:54:16.079 --> 00:54:17.460
And it's beautiful.

644
00:54:17.519 --> 00:54:25.440
I can't give it justice in my description of it here, and I'll try and find a copy online and put it in the show notes.

645
00:54:25.500 --> 00:54:43.380
Um, but it posits a world where a beautiful sort of fantasy kingdom that's hugely prosperous, but everyone is aware that the prosperity of the kingdom is contingent entirely on the repeated um, imiseration of a small child.

646
00:54:43.440 --> 00:54:48.059
And it's just heartbreaking to read.

647
00:54:48.599 --> 00:54:52.260
And it presents you with that choice.

648
00:54:52.320 --> 00:55:03.179
Do you go back and join the kingdom and continue to be complicit in the emiseration of this child or do you walk away?

649
00:55:03.239 --> 00:55:06.780
Um, it's absolutely worth reading.

650
00:55:06.840 --> 00:55:14.099
And I would be surprised if Moffatt wasn't aware of it, because the parallels are really very strong.

651
00:55:38.460 --> 00:55:41.880
Well, they listen, that's all we have time for this week.

652
00:55:41.940 --> 00:55:49.679
We'll be back next week to find out what Great Britain's most celebrated racist Prime Minister has been getting up to in victory of the Daleks.

653
00:55:49.739 --> 00:55:51.300
Can you narrow it down?

654
00:55:51.420 --> 00:55:53.519
Well, the most racist one.

655
00:55:54.179 --> 00:55:56.579
Can you narrow it down?

656
00:55:56.880 --> 00:56:12.179
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us at flights or entirety on Facebook, at FDE Podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, and Jody interterra.

657
00:56:12.539 --> 00:56:16.500
Stephen, is there anything that you would like to plug?

658
00:56:16.679 --> 00:56:28.500
Um, well, if you want to hear more of me, and I'm not sure if you do, but if you do, head over to new to who podcast, uh, www.noodahoo.com, uh, also on Twitter at Utahoo podcast.

659
00:56:28.559 --> 00:56:29.820
Brilliant.

660
00:56:29.880 --> 00:56:31.440
And Kevin, where can people find you?

661
00:56:31.500 --> 00:56:45.420
Uh, well, I am on Twitter at Scribble Script with 2 S's in the middle because Scribbles, Script, and uh, I've been working on some 12th doctor fan audios that are on YouTube.

662
00:56:45.480 --> 00:56:52.079
I can't remember the exact username for it, but if you search 12th doctor fan audios, Christmas alone, you'll get the 1st episode.

663
00:56:52.139 --> 00:56:57.480
Also, I just co-wrote a book thing that I totally forgot about.

664
00:56:57.659 --> 00:57:07.260
Um, A friend of mine, Lawrence and I, over the past like year or so in pandemic, have just bounced ideas off to write a couple trashy comedy plays.

665
00:57:07.320 --> 00:57:10.079
Not for kids, but very fun.

666
00:57:10.139 --> 00:57:17.579
They're called threesome, and you can find them on Amazon to search threesome, Kevin Bernard and Lawrence Watts.

667
00:57:17.639 --> 00:57:19.980
So, yeah, buy my book.

668
00:57:20.039 --> 00:57:23.340
Bring it. put that in the show notes so people can go there.

669
00:57:23.400 --> 00:57:24.539
All right.

670
00:57:24.599 --> 00:57:28.500
So, until next time, may you always vote to protest.

671
00:57:28.559 --> 00:57:31.500
Or if you're the queen, ma'am, to abdicate.

672
00:57:31.559 --> 00:57:33.960
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

673
00:57:34.079 --> 00:57:36.059
I'm abdicating right now.

674
00:57:36.119 --> 00:57:36.420
Good night.

675
00:57:36.480 --> 00:57:37.500
See you.

676
00:57:37.500 --> 00:57:38.039
Good night.

677
00:57:41.940 --> 00:57:50.400
That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Kevin Bernard, Stephen from New to Who, and Brendan Jones, Themed Ranger by Cameron Lamb.

678
00:57:50.460 --> 00:57:57.000
This episode, Make a Better Choice, was recorded on the 24th of January 2021 and released on the 21st of March.

679
00:58:00.960 --> 00:58:09.179
The governance of the Western world would like to announce that to reduce voter confusion in future elections, the protest option will be removed.

680
00:58:09.239 --> 00:58:14.699
We hope you continue to enjoy the guilt free exercise of your democratic rights.

681
00:58:18.000 --> 00:58:20.219
Do we have an out?

682
00:58:21.900 --> 00:58:27.360
Has anyone got anything they'd like to say about the story that they haven't already said?

683
00:58:27.780 --> 00:58:32.219
I like that the Sonic screwdriver lit up like a flashlight with the white little N.

684
00:58:33.179 --> 00:58:36.420
I noticed that for the 1st time, this time.

685
00:58:38.099 --> 00:58:49.739
The only other thing literally, and we've ticked off so much, which is amazing to me in such a good chat, is, did anyone pick up on the sort of Chris Nolan Memento vibes of the Liz 10 subplot?

686
00:58:49.800 --> 00:58:54.119
It's that whole thing about where she's trying to uncover the secrets that she herself created.

687
00:58:54.179 --> 00:58:56.760
Yeah, yeah. and the clue is the mask.

688
00:58:56.820 --> 00:59:00.239
And yeah, it's it sort of really put me in mind of that.

689
00:59:00.300 --> 00:59:03.659
And also, um, part 4 rooftain of the Daleks.

690
00:59:03.719 --> 00:59:04.559
You did it yourselves.

691
00:59:04.619 --> 00:59:06.840
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

692
00:59:07.079 --> 00:59:11.340
I have to ask, are there masks that really just fit on your face like that?

693
00:59:11.400 --> 00:59:20.460
I think if you're if you're super royal, you can afford, you know, the special adhesive porcelain that no one else has access to.

694
00:59:20.519 --> 00:59:21.659
Yeah.

695
00:59:21.719 --> 00:59:26.940
I did, I did also, I did also wonder watching it this time.

696
00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:34.920
It's like, okay, we have a black monarch who can only go out in public wearing a white mask.

697
00:59:35.280 --> 00:59:37.559
But she is on all the stats.

698
00:59:37.619 --> 00:59:39.059
That's the other line that I really like.

699
00:59:39.239 --> 00:59:43.440
The reason that they've slowed to metabolism is it keeps her looking like the stamps.

700
00:59:43.559 --> 00:59:44.039
Yeah.

701
00:59:44.099 --> 00:59:46.019
Like everyone knows what she looks like.

702
00:59:46.079 --> 00:59:51.780
And to be fair, when she takes off the mask, like Mandy is so pleased to see Her Majesty, the Queen.

703
00:59:51.840 --> 00:59:53.219
Is she though?

704
00:59:53.219 --> 00:59:57.179
She makes this like strange face at first, which I thought was hilarious.

705
00:59:57.780 --> 01:00:00.420
It's sort of like, what is going on?

706
01:00:00.420 --> 01:00:01.019
Shock.

707
01:00:01.860 --> 01:00:14.159
Something that was cut, an exchange I really liked between Liz 10 and Mandy is when they're on their way to rescue the doctor and Amy from the space whale overflow tube.

708
01:00:14.219 --> 01:00:21.179
And, um, there's sort of, and there's, there's a bit of chat there of how she's tracking them.

709
01:00:21.239 --> 01:00:22.920
Oh, I put a tracking device on him, blah, blah, blah.

710
01:00:22.980 --> 01:00:24.480
And she says to Mandy, are you all right?

711
01:00:24.539 --> 01:00:26.099
And Mandy says, no, no, I'm very scared.

712
01:00:26.159 --> 01:00:29.219
And Liz 10 says, um, Excellent.

713
01:00:29.280 --> 01:00:30.000
I like that.

714
01:00:30.840 --> 01:00:32.699
She's like, excellent.

715
01:00:32.760 --> 01:00:33.960
I don't like people who aren't scared.

716
01:00:34.019 --> 01:00:35.880
Mandy's like, what do you mean?

717
01:00:35.940 --> 01:00:37.079
I thought you'd like brave people.

718
01:00:37.139 --> 01:00:39.000
And Liz 10 says, I'll put it another way.

719
01:00:39.059 --> 01:00:40.380
I like people who are honest.

720
01:00:40.440 --> 01:00:42.659
And that's why when they walk in.

721
01:00:42.719 --> 01:00:44.400
She says, this is Mandy.

722
01:00:44.460 --> 01:00:45.119
She's very brave.

723
01:00:45.840 --> 01:00:48.119
Oh, that's cute.

724
01:00:48.179 --> 01:00:48.659
It's cute.

725
01:00:48.719 --> 01:00:50.519
And it's, you know, it's a shame we lost it.

726
01:00:50.579 --> 01:00:58.440
But I do wonder if sort of Moffatt's early edits of these were like, okay, let's chuck everything in and see what we get.

727
01:00:58.500 --> 01:00:59.940
An hour and 15 minutes?

728
01:01:00.480 --> 01:01:04.199
Okay, BBC, can we have an hour and 15?

729
01:01:04.260 --> 01:01:05.099
No, no, don't shout.

730
01:01:05.159 --> 01:01:06.000
Please don't shout at me.

731
01:01:06.059 --> 01:01:06.480
Okay.

732
01:01:06.539 --> 01:01:08.460
Can we get it down to 45?

733
01:01:10.199 --> 01:01:13.139
Well, I think we have a tag, to be honest.

734
01:01:13.199 --> 01:01:20.579
I'm going to do the do the closing things and I'll ask you to plug and then thank you very much for listening a good night in the same order.

735
01:01:20.639 --> 01:01:21.179
Is that all right?